# Writer's BLOCK



## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

Got it pretty bad right now. How do you all go about breaking through the barrier? I just finished one second, minus the lyrics, and proceeded to start on the next one and haven't got far at all. 

I have about 2, maybe 3 riffs written so far but completely stuck on where to go from there. They style I have in mind is more progressive like BTBAM. Long shot theory wise, but its a style I enjoy. 

any thoughts or tips? Thanks


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

forgot to add, I know my main problem is that I tend to have the mindset that no riff is good enough which hinders my process quite a bit. Anyone have a suggestion on how to overcome that also?


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## JohnIce (Mar 23, 2015)

Some problems I see:

- You have a style in mind, even a band, before writing. Leaves no room for curiosity.
- You count songs as if each new one was an achievement, like pushups
- You write riffs instead of songs

If you were to throw your preconceived notion about what your preferred music style is and just wrote the way you felt like for the moment, that would probably help. Secondly, you need to enjoy the process of writing more than getting done. If you focus too hard on getting done (i.e. the grass is greener on the other side mentality), the process is just gonna feel slow and frustrating. Much like if you go on a long train ride and stock up with a magazine, some new music in your ears and some snacks, that train ride is gonna be a blast but if all you think about is your destination and how far it is, that same train ride is gonna suck instead.

Thinking no riff is good enough is not a problem, it's a talent. It means your taste is more developed than your skill, and that's a good thing! Here's a good quote from Ira Glass about exactly this:


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## isispelican (Mar 23, 2015)

The way I see it is that you can't force writing so there is no such thing as writer's block. You have to wait for the inspiration to hit, and when it does you got to make the best of it.


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## Solodini (Mar 23, 2015)

Agreed with JohnIce. Rather than choosing a style and a band to emulate, choose something to represent: a scenario, a story, a set of feelings (and what causes them and what results from them). From there, you can plan a structure to represent. Play around with different intervals, chords and rhythms and lay out a palate of sounds which are representative of what you're trying to express. Describe them in words and write that down. 
Transpose them. Pitches can transpose through the key to find diatonic equivalents: F to Ab is a minor 3rd. There are 4 minor 3rds in a major key, so in Eb major, you could have F to Ab, C to Eb, G to Bb, D to F as similar phrases, although they'll interact differently. There are some which won't transpose diatonically but could help to make a point by contrast. You can make an idea major rather than minor, or shift it into a different mode.

Rhythms can be transposed through a bar, such as starting on beat 3 rather than beat one. They can be played double time or half time, or you can even play the same rhythm but halving each note and playing it twice i.e. quarter quarter 8th quarter 8th could be changed to 8th 8th 16th 16th 8th 8th 16th 16th, effectively double picking the whole rhythm.

You could express yourself within the song's structure like
V1 expressing the feelings musically
Chorus developing on the verse and expressing how that feeling is affecting you
V2 expressing what caused that feeling
Chorus again expressing how you're affected
bridge expressing what you're going to do as a result of that feeling, be that to combat a negative feeling or to make progress thanks to a positive feeling
verse or chorus expressing the result of that action and the resulting change or development of feeling.

Analyse some other songs and see what they're doing structurally and what the music in each section (even down to first half of verse, 2nd half of verse) makes you feel and how those relate.

Make the noises you hear and make mean something, rather than just be a meaningless arrangement of vibrations.


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## Nick (Mar 23, 2015)

I get this quite a lot and I think its because i am primarily a sports person and sports and music (art) are very different in their approach! I tend to just persevere when things arent going the way I want them to (musically) when I should just park whatever Im doing and come back to it when I dont feel under pressure to produce something good.

Thats pretty much what works for me. Just put it to one side and do something else even if its start another song or go and learn something new etc.


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

johnice-thanks. Interesting points and I do see those now that you mention them. I do write riffs and piece them together. Its always worked for me in the past and its easiest for me. Once I write something I like, I immediately write it down because if I don't, I'll forget it almost immediately. I do enjoy the process of writing. I just get those certain times where no matter what I do, I won't like it basically. I'll keep a more open mind next time I try write and see how that works. Thanks


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

Isispelican-my best time of inspiration seems to be in the early morning right after coffee but its usually hard to do all the time haha if I could write in the morning all the time, id have a ton of songs by now haha


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

solodini-that's exactly what i did when i got stuck last night. i studied a few different songs just to see how they transitioned out. I didnt copy them, but hearing and seeing what they did inspired me enough to write some more last night. i change keys quite a bit throughout. big problem may be the rhythm side and how stale i guess it tends to sound since i hear myself all the time haha thanks for your input


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

nick-im sports guy myself, so yeah that may be the issue! haha


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 23, 2015)

I think the best thing to do is to learn songs that you like, and practice the techniques that you would like to be using in your songs. After practicing those for a while, You'll learn a few new techniques and maybe a thing or two about song structure from studying them. Then when you sit down and play the guitar these techniques should just come out when you're trying to make up your own material. Remember our hands can only do what we've practiced, so if you don't practice playing songs that you like, you might have a hard time writing songs that you like. 

Any song ever made is a combination of other songs. So don't be afraid of copying something that another song did (its actually a great way to learn too.) Its the way that you combine all of your inspirations that will lead you to make something unique. 

As far as remembering what you write, don't put so much weight on every thing that you write. The more that you try to remember things that you write, the better you'll get at remembering them. I used to have trouble with that too, but now when I write a part, I'll play it over and over for a while, making adjustments, and then eventually I'll just record it so that if I forget it, I can just listen back. To me, transcribing during the first stages of writing doesn't work well. It disconnects me from what I was working on. Its much better for me to just record what parts I'm writing and write the drums as needed. But different things work for different people.  Basically just keep writing stuff, even if you don't like the songs. The more you do it the better you'll get at it, and the next song should be better than the previous.


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## nikolazjalic (Mar 23, 2015)

write a ....ty song for fun, try to just bash it out and write the first section that comes to mind as the next section. I've done it a few times when the writers block was unreal and they've all been terrible but at least they've never been forced to leave the dark depths of my hard drive


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## redstone (Mar 23, 2015)

Writer's block is self-explanatory, you don't know what to write when you don't know what to say. Start at least with a general idea, mood. One word.


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## Nick (Mar 23, 2015)

nikolazjalic said:


> write a ....ty song for fun, try to just bash it out and write the first section that comes to mind as the next section. I've done it a few times when the writers block was unreal and they've all been terrible but at least they've never been forced to leave the dark depths of my hard drive



I find this helps as well. Just write the most obvious thing you can think of. usually it will turn into something good even though you will start out thinking it is crap because it is so obvious/generic etc.


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## JohnIce (Mar 23, 2015)

nikolazjalic said:


> write a ....ty song for fun, try to just bash it out and write the first section that comes to mind as the next section. I've done it a few times when the writers block was unreal and they've all been terrible but at least they've never been forced to leave the dark depths of my hard drive



My band did the "20 Song Game" a few days ago. You write 20 songs in 12 hours. So you have 36 minutes per song, if you don't eat during those 12 hours. 

About 15 songs into it, probably around 8-9 hours, you want to kill yourself. Your body is weak and your head is empty and you still have 5 more songs (half an album!) to go, AND you're in too much of a hurry to take a break or wait for inspiration to just come to you. We finished the 20th song after 11 hours and 48 minutes 

It's a brutal exercise but what it does is force you to be creative on the spot. And it exposes the lowest, most drained state your creativity can be in, leaving you no choice but to face it and make something with it.

For me, what I learned from this (apart from NEVER wanting to do it again! ) was that the cause of any frustration about my creativity is not that my best isn't good enough. It's that my WORST isn't good enough. And if I want my worst to get better, I can't just practice when I'm feeling inspired and great. That would be like lifting a weight once when you're all rested, and then wait until you're fully recovered to lift it again.


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 23, 2015)

Did you record them? or did you just write them as a band while playing them and then move on to the next one?


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## JohnIce (Mar 23, 2015)

TallestFiddle said:


> Did you record them? or did you just write them as a band while playing them and then move on to the next one?



Hell yeah, we had a 5 hour long Logic project at the end of the day  We did try to get one decent take of each song before moving on, but you probably don't have time to give it more than 2 or 3 takes if you're gonna make it in time.


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## Axayacatl (Mar 23, 2015)

Some fantastic advice in this thread. In particularly JohnIce since I'm 'guilty' of many of the things the OP wrote about and the reply is spot on. There is probably little that is useful that I can contribute by now but I should say (or rather echo since the advice is already so comprehensive):

- The music you're listening to isn't necessarily the music you want or can write at that particular point in time. I want to be the next Muha and write the next Necrophagist album but when I sit down and write music it sounds more like Guthre Govan and David Gilmour suddenly lost all their talent and then got super high and drunk and had an unproductive afternoon and then ordered pizza. So be it, that is the inner voice I'm carrying at that moment. No can do, no forcing will change that. We're talking about art, not a constipated stool. 

- If you want to write some bad ass metal I really suggest you _starve_ yourself of metal. When I don't listen to metal I find myself writing or thinking about brutal riffs and blast beats and when I'm listening to a lot to metal I'm suddenly trying to write Kylie Minogue's next hit (if she had a meth habit). I would bet you an SX or even an Agile guitar that Dino Cazares listens to some pretty poppy shallow .... when he's not writing metal. And then his riffs crush. 

- What JohnIce and a few others bring up about pressure makes a lot of sense to me. Ever write the better essay the night before while you were in school? I remember reading Akerfeldt from Opeth say in an interview or documentary that he likes leaving some parts unwritten because the studio pressure brings out the best in him. My (unsubstantiated) view is that we humans do in fact function better under pressure (the humans that didn't died out long ago). We just have to find those little details that make the pressure tick (instead of it overwhelming us). 

- Not being able to play what is in your head is really frustrating. In my head I'm like Jaari. Everything is so huge, epic, symphonic, Easter, Western, metal, mystic, so much RAM and so many external hard drives are needed to produce my imaginary music. But my fingers, my right hand, my technique, not so much help from those losers. So then it is easy to be super down on anything you/I write. But the next riff we write doesn't have to be _the_ riff. Let's let it come out, set it aside, but let's not don't block ourselves because that first riff isn't our _best_ riff. Remember that writing is re-writing and I would bet that the same applies to music. 

- On that same note, don't be so damn picky! Sit down and actually listen to several of those riffs that get you going in actual recordings. Perhaps it was a stupid simple riff written at half speed, doubled up using a looper, then practiced endlessly until it sounded tight at full speed. OP, I bet you kill yourself trying to write 'that riff' but you're not realizing that a lot of the riffs you like are actually stupid simple, or that it is about more than just the riff. You get the idea. 

- The guys in Tool (and several others) do that trick where they have one amazing moment that gets played once and never again. In the medium and short term we come back to the song because of the chorus or the intro, but we listen to the song forever because of that one moment that is just not satisfying enough but we can't get enough of. 

- Starting simple today doesn't mean your riffs two years from now won't be amazing. But starting super complicated today pretty much guarantees that two years from now you will have nothing to show for it. Finishing things, something, anything, is so important. There are a ton of taltented people who start big, think big, and then don't finish things. The bands/artists in your iTunes library _finished_ something. It is hard to learn from what you do unless you can look back to take stock and it is much easier to do that if you actually _finish_ something. Remember, it doesn't have to be Master of Puppets the first time around. 

- Echoing another good thought or piece of advice that was already posted, what are you actually writing about? Things that come out spontaneously can sound nice but at least in my case I notice that they often have that cheesy backing track vibe to it. Sounds good, would sound amazing played in the right elevator, but its not making me or anybody else feel much. That music is fine, but it is not what you're after. How about starting with a story? Let the story write the music for you. If the music isn't coming out then maybe it isn't the story you really want to help others feel right that minute so listen to yourself carefully and jump to that something else that is what you want to talk about! I had/have this whole epic concept album going on for an eternity. Writer's block. Then I sit down to write a song about my cat. Bam! 3/4ths of a decent-ish song down in like 20 minutes. Clearly I'm more into my cats than whatever deep and pretentious thing that concept album was/is about. 

- So many good musicians/bands from Roxette to Alexi Laiho play the same catchy thematic riff one step higher and in doing so they keep the listener interested without confusing them. Great technique to imitate!

- Do not listen to people like me that have yet to complete one song.


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks for the input bros. Definitely alot of good points, and interesting thoughts. Axaycatl, you're crazy lol I definitely agree with your point about "starving for metal." I think monotony is my biggest hurdle right now because I've heard me, and myself for so long without any outside input, well a legit one anyway...cant say my wife and kids count since they "like it." I write or play daily. Each day is a fresh session but again I think its down to the monotonous aspect of it all, and probably a little of my mindset also, like johnice pointed out earlier, predetermining a style before I even write. Thanks once again for the input and I'll try to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method throughout at least to get some momentum going so I'm not stuck in the future with nothing to show for it as axayacatl points out!


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## Solodini (Mar 24, 2015)

TallestFiddle said:


> I think the best thing to do is to learn songs that you like, and practice the techniques that you would like to be using in your songs. After practicing those for a while, You'll learn a few new techniques and maybe a thing or two about song structure from studying them. Then when you sit down and play the guitar these techniques should just come out when you're trying to make up your own material. Remember our hands can only do what we've practiced, so if you don't practice playing songs that you like, you might have a hard time writing songs that you like.


 
Mechanical techniques aren't necessarily the same as music, though. Muscle memory often just leads to playing other people's licks. Small phrases and intervals are probably transferable but if you want to seem 'original' you probably don't want to get used to just habitually regurgitating other people's music when you improvise. 

However, learning other people's music and learning the COMPOSITIONAL techniques, learning what's going on by way of pitches and rhythms and being able to use that as source material/ingredients/vocabulary to use, with awareness of the effect that those sounds will have on the music.


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## Solodini (Mar 24, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> My band did the "20 Song Game" a few days ago. You write 20 songs in 12 hours. So you have 36 minutes per song, if you don't eat during those 12 hours.
> 
> About 15 songs into it, probably around 8-9 hours, you want to kill yourself. Your body is weak and your head is empty and you still have 5 more songs (half an album!) to go, AND you're in too much of a hurry to take a break or wait for inspiration to just come to you. We finished the 20th song after 11 hours and 48 minutes
> 
> ...


 
Hear hear. Raising your base level is important, if you want to be consistent, not just accidentally fall into something good.



Axayacatl said:


> - Echoing another good thought or piece of advice that was already posted, what are you actually writing about? Things that come out spontaneously can sound nice but at least in my case I notice that they often have that cheesy backing track vibe to it. Sounds good, would sound amazing played in the right elevator, but its not making me or anybody else feel much. That music is fine, but it is not what you're after. How about starting with a story? Let the story write the music for you. If the music isn't coming out then maybe it isn't the story you really want to help others feel right that minute so listen to yourself carefully and jump to that something else that is what you want to talk about! I had/have this whole epic concept album going on for an eternity. Writer's block. Then I sit down to write a song about my cat. Bam! 3/4ths of a decent-ish song down in like 20 minutes. Clearly I'm more into my cats than whatever deep and pretentious thing that concept album was/is about.


 
Your cat has a character which you know. What's the character of deep self-loathing and pizza fueled sweats? There's lots of elements to a pizza, lots of people's opinions and expections feed into self-loathing. Your cat is just one, which is easier to represent.


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## Aion (Mar 24, 2015)

One thing that I don't think gets stressed enough in music is rewriting and different song drafts. Write the song, some parts will suck, some parts will be good, and if you're lucky, a few might be great. From there look at what you wrote, figure out what (from a more abstract, musical perspective) the song is about. Figure out what does and does not fit that message. Anything that doesn't fit, get rid of (but maybe save some ideas for a new song later). Add anything that is necessary to build to the songs climax and anything that is necessary to go through its denouncement. Repeat this, but now also look at what stuff fits the message but doesn't quite work. Figure out why it isn't working and adjust it until it does. Repeat this a few more times until you have a song you like.

You probably (definitely) should not do all of this in one sitting. Generally I'll write my first draft and let it sit for a while (at least a week, but a month is probably better). This gives you a fresh perspective so you don't get so hung up on what your intent was and instead you can focus on what you actually did. In the interim you can work on other songs. The space between revisions can be shorter than the space between the first draft and the first set of revisions, but you should still make sure that you don't get too bogged down. As soon as you stop seeing it for what it is and start seeing only what you want it to be is when you know you've gotten too close and need to take some time away from it. Revision is probably one of the most frustrating parts of writing a song because it feels like you're moving backwards/sideways instead of forwards, but it's the best way to consistently end up with music that is cohesive and meets your standards.


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## Solodini (Mar 25, 2015)

Sometimes even just taking the good bits and starting a new song with them is good, too. As I've mentioned before, you can't polish a turd and sometimes that's what some revision can feel like. You can still go back and examine everything Aion mentioned to deduce what didn't work and why but then use that to inform your writing of more effective parts in the new song, with some old parts. There are plenty of times I see bands talking about a 5th album (for example) and about a song where they took parts from a few old songs from when they were 16 and hadn't happened to notice that they shared a theme and sound and could be combined, leaving out the rubbish, but writing new good bits with the benefit of experience.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 25, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Some problems I see:
> 
> - You have a style in mind, even a band, before writing. Leaves no room for curiosity.



I don't see this as a problem. Having a style in mind is a good place to start when organizing thoughts and materials. It can be said that composition is the art of limitation. If you find "limitation" too negative a word, you can also think of composition as the art of definition, of disambiguation, which is the way I find myself thinking about it.

Here's a quote about compositional limitation from Stravinsky's Poetics of Music:



> A mode of composition that does not assign itself limits becomes pure fantasy. The effects it produces may accidentally amuse but are not capable of being repeated. I cannot conceive of a fantasy that is repeated, for it can be repeated only to its detriment...The creator's function is to sift the elements he receives from her [the imagination], for human activity must impose limits on itself. The more art is controlled, limited, worked over, the more it is free...If everything is permissible to me, the best and the worst; if nothing offers me any resistance, then any effort is inconceivable, and I cannot use anything as a basis, and consequently every undertaking becomes futile...I have no use for theoretic freedom. Let me have something finite, definite--matter that can lend itself to my operation only insofar as it is commensurate with my possibilities. And such matter presents itself to me together with its limitations. I must in turn impose mine upon it. So here we are, whether we like it or not, in the realm of necessity. And yet which of us has ever heard talk of art as other than a realm of freedom? This sort of heresy is uniformly widespread because it is imagined that art is outside the bounds of ordinary activity. Well, in art as in everything else, one can build only upon a resisting foundation: whatever constantly gives way to pressure, constantly renders movement impossible.
> 
> My freedom thus consists in my moving about within the narrow frame that I have assigned to myself for each one of my undertakings. I shall go even further: my freedom will be so much the greater and more meaningful the more narrowly I limit my field of action and the more I surround myself with obstacles. Whatever diminishes constraint diminishes strength. The more constraints one imposes, the more one frees oneself of the claims that shackle the spirit.



If you know what you're writing, then it is easier to write that thing, because, well, you know what you're writing. If I set out to write a sixteen-bar contrasting period in the key of G minor with a meter of 6, and I want the music to be lively, then the damn thing is already written and all I have to do is plug in the notes according to what I said I would write. I have made the choices in a clear and organized manner during the planning phase so that when I start doing the "dirty work" I don't have to stop every three seconds to ask myself, "What now?"

That's an approach I really recommend. Learn something about phrase structure (antecedent and consequent phrasing, periods, cadences), write two or three periods to correspond to A, B, and maybe C sections, then piece them together and figure out ways to develop them and add transitions and stuff. Really spend your time planning the form, and everything else will fall into place. If you're going for a form like ABABCB (standard pop tune), and each section is 16 bars, then that means you only have to write 48 bars to effectively create a 96 bar composition. And it's easy as hell to slap a first and second ending on each of those sections, meaning that you only have to write 51 bars to get a 192 bar composition. What I'm getting at here is to learn how to multiply your music. Don't be a chump, stringing one note onto one little riff at a time; make the prototype unit, then give the template to the factory to churn out your motives wholesale.​


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## nikolazjalic (Mar 25, 2015)

Aion said:


> One thing that I don't think gets stressed enough in music is rewriting and different song drafts. Write the song, some parts will suck, some parts will be good, and if you're lucky, a few might be great. From there look at what you wrote, figure out what (from a more abstract, musical perspective) the song is about. Figure out what does and does not fit that message. Anything that doesn't fit, get rid of (but maybe save some ideas for a new song later). Add anything that is necessary to build to the songs climax and anything that is necessary to go through its denouncement. Repeat this, but now also look at what stuff fits the message but doesn't quite work. Figure out why it isn't working and adjust it until it does. Repeat this a few more times until you have a song you like.
> 
> You probably (definitely) should not do all of this in one sitting. Generally I'll write my first draft and let it sit for a while (at least a week, but a month is probably better). This gives you a fresh perspective so you don't get so hung up on what your intent was and instead you can focus on what you actually did. In the interim you can work on other songs. The space between revisions can be shorter than the space between the first draft and the first set of revisions, but you should still make sure that you don't get too bogged down. As soon as you stop seeing it for what it is and start seeing only what you want it to be is when you know you've gotten too close and need to take some time away from it. Revision is probably one of the most frustrating parts of writing a song because it feels like you're moving backwards/sideways instead of forwards, but it's the best way to consistently end up with music that is cohesive and meets your standards.



I have to emphasize Aion's point, this is solid advice. I wish I realized earlier on how much song drafts and revisions change your opinion over time. When I first start writing, I'm just churning out riffs, maybe transitions, and sometimes(most of the time) the parts don't flow as well as I'd like them to or some riffs suck, etc. But going back, cutting the fat, making little changes here and there makes a HUGE difference in the flow of the song. 

For example, my current work in progress of a song started with riffs I thought were decent. Added a clean guitar lead up to the intro, tapping riff over a rhythmic melodic chord part which was the first riff I wrote, added ambient leads over the second repetition of sections, drum fills, variation in the percussion, little embellishments here and there for the guitars and drums and now I've got something different. The core ideas, which I originally thought were decent, now flow together much more smoothly and are stronger in the context of the song. It's still not 100% where I want it to be but these revisions have made the difference from me wanting to scrap this song and now thinking it'll be one of my stronger songs


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## JohnIce (Mar 25, 2015)

Mr. Big Noodles said:


> I don't see this as a problem. Having a style in mind is a good place to start when organizing thoughts and materials. It can be said that composition is the art of limitation. If you find "limitation" too negative a word, you can also think of composition as the art of definition, of disambiguation, which is the way I find myself thinking about it.
> 
> Here's a quote about compositional limitation from Stravinsky's Poetics of Music:
> 
> ...



I agree! But I think we're talking about different things. The OP said "The style I have in mind is more progressive like BTBAM". This is a lot less specific than what you're suggesting for one, but more importantly if I understood the OP right, the BTBAM reference was a general one and not specific to just _one_ song. When Stravinsky talked about narrow frames assigned to each of his undertakings, he wasn't talking about a narrow frame assigned to himself as a composer _in general_. 

I think putting general limitations on what you're "supposed" to do musically (i.e. "I'm gonna be in this genre, this is gonna be my life") is very common especially with musicians from a metal background, and I don't think everyone is actually cut out for that. I've struggled with the same thing myself, finally realizing I just don't enjoy intentionally duplicating someone else's ideas no matter how good I think they are and how badly I want to be just like that artist.

If however mimicking a band (to whatever extent) gets you inspired and it's something you enjoy then it's not a problem, but we're talking about writer's block in this thread, so clearly something about the OP's way of doing things isn't working for him.


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## nikolazjalic (Mar 25, 2015)

this just came out today, you'll like it 
Episode #34 &#8211; The Secret To Writing Better (And More) Songs In The Studio | Simply Recording Podcast


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 25, 2015)

niko and noodles, great advice and explanations. I did what you both mentioned. I have those riffs that I was working on, already improvised a bit, and now I'm leaving where they are for now and I will continue them a little longer down the road. Hopefully a fresh perspective will contribute to more ideas that will jive instead of feeling forced


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## MetalheadMC (Mar 25, 2015)

johnice, you sir are spot on. I felt this exact way last night. i was working on the original piece that this thread is made from, and it all felt forced. sounded good but i wasnt get the feeling i wanted from it. So i saved my work for a later date, and started on a fresh "project." Changed the style of the drums ive been using, and just played what i felt to be comfortable. Bam! Riff after riff flowing into one another that meshed so well, sounded great, and got me moving. 

Going back to what you said, coming from a metal background and always playing that felt like what I had to do. The style that I was doing last night could easily be categorized as hard rock. If I was to put a label on it. 

no mimicking, no copying. Just playing what I felt, which felt weird because I've been trying to emulate a style I like to hear, bur apparently its not the style I can naturally let out. If that makes sense...great posts all around and thanks a ton everyone for your contributions. I've learned a lot in a very short amount of time


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## Solodini (Mar 26, 2015)

Once you have some experience in writing, you'll write what you feel (like you described) and it may be a bunch of different "styles" but it'll all sound like you. Just look at a band like Led Zeppelin, for example.


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 26, 2015)

Solodini said:


> Mechanical techniques aren't necessarily the same as music, though. Muscle memory often just leads to playing other people's licks. Small phrases and intervals are probably transferable but if you want to seem 'original' you probably don't want to get used to just habitually regurgitating other people's music when you improvise.
> 
> However, learning other people's music and learning the COMPOSITIONAL techniques, learning what's going on by way of pitches and rhythms and being able to use that as source material/ingredients/vocabulary to use, with awareness of the effect that those sounds will have on the music.



Ya you're right, you definitely need to be thinking about the compositional techniques of songs if you want to be writing something unique. You definitely don't want to sound too much like one musician, or one style. But for me, as a guitar player, the mechanical techniques are as important as the compositional techniques. I learn mechanical techniques from many songs, and compositional techniques from even more songs. I never learn to play full songs, I just learn the parts that have the mechanical techniques I want to inherit. I hope that the way I combine these techniques ends up being a unique style that doesn't sound like a regurgitation 

A lot of times I'll use the same finger motion/picking pattern that I learned from someone else's song, but in a different place on the neck, in a different key, or in a different time signature, or at a different tempo. There are so many variables that go into a song; the more techniques you have to use (compositional and mechanical,) the more variables you can change. 

If you're a guitarist that wants to make music like BTBAM, you need to learn to play the guitar like BTBAM. Just remember, no one wants to listen to a knock-off BTBAM. They want to hear something new that is a combination of things that they like. And especially if your music is starting to seem monotonous, you need to be learning how to play music from different styles. Think about all of the different music you like, think about the composition of it, and try to learn some guitar techniques from it that you would like to use.


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 26, 2015)

MetalheadMC said:


> no mimicking, no copying. Just playing what I felt, which felt weird because I've been trying to emulate a style I like to hear, bur apparently its not the style I can naturally let out. If that makes sense...great posts all around and thanks a ton everyone for your contributions. I've learned a lot in a very short amount of time



This is the only way that I was able to start writing music. My songs were really silly at first (and still are ) but the more you write, the more comfortable you'll get at it. Eventually once your compositional knowledge and playing skill gets better, you'll be able to write stuff in the style that you want to hear. Just don't worry that the stuff you're writing isn't the exact style you would like to hear, you'll get there eventually, every song you write gets you closer and closer.


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## JohnIce (Mar 26, 2015)

TallestFiddle said:


> Ya you're right, you definitely need to be thinking about the compositional techniques of songs if you want to be writing something unique. You definitely don't want to sound too much like one musician, or one style. But for me, as a guitar player, the mechanical techniques are as important as the compositional techniques. I learn mechanical techniques from many songs, and compositional techniques from even more songs. I never learn to play full songs, I just learn the parts that have the mechanical techniques I want to inherit. I hope that the way I combine these techniques ends up being a unique style that doesn't sound like a regurgitation
> 
> A lot of times I'll use the same finger motion/picking pattern that I learned from someone else's song, but in a different place on the neck, in a different key, or in a different time signature, or at a different tempo. There are so many variables that go into a song; the more techniques you have to use (compositional and mechanical,) the more variables you can change.
> 
> If you're a guitarist that wants to make music like BTBAM, you need to learn to play the guitar like BTBAM. Just remember, no one wants to listen to a knock-off BTBAM. They want to hear something new that is a combination of things that they like. And especially if your music is starting to seem monotonous, you need to be learning how to play music from different styles. Think about all of the different music you like, think about the composition of it, and try to learn some guitar techniques from it that you would like to use.



I used to think this way, and it kinda burned me out to be honest. Back then I was really trying to be a "great" guitar player by learning all styles and in doing so I wanted to throw everything I learned into at least one song, or solo. If I learned a Guthrie lick I'd use it, I was determined to do it. The thing is, when you write with guitar techniques in mind, even if your song ends up using techniques from 10 vastly different players, it still doesn't sound like you. It sounds like no-one. It's like Pinterest, but with guitar tricks  At least it felt that way to me, everything people were patting me on the back for and giving me praise for, I'd learned from someone. People couldn't tell of course, but I could, and it bummed me out after a few years (about 10 years). I didn't come up with sweeping, or tapping, or hybrid picking, or alternate picked 3nps runs through the minor scale. I just learned it and passed it off as my own "expression" which it wasn't of course.

My opinion is that mimicking 15 bands at once is only marginally more creative than mimicking just one band. The only thing different is that no-one's gonna recognize ALL those 15 bands' influence on you and point them all out, but the intention from your side is still the same. And to me, that eventually didn't satisfy me and I had to stop writing like a lead guitar player and go back to basics with an acoustic and a pen and paper. Or a piano, or lately a Maschine, but basically anything where I can't just fall back on my practiced guitar licks, so I actually have to sit and think about my writing instead, from a song perspective rather than an instrumentalist's perspective.

- edit - To clarify, what I mean is that sometimes just learning more music styles and more playing techniques isn't what you need to grow as a songwriter. Maybe what you need is to turn inwards and see what you can come up with on your own that truly represents you and no-one else. Maybe a rhythm, a chord progression or vocal approach you've never heard before. If the ideas you come up with require you to learn more techniques, then at least you'll figure them out on your own and maybe come up with something no-one's done before.


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 26, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> I used to think this way, and it kinda burned me out to be honest. Back then I was really trying to be a "great" guitar player by learning all styles and in doing so I wanted to throw everything I learned into at least one song, or solo. If I learned a Guthrie lick I'd use it, I was determined to do it. The thing is, when you write with guitar techniques in mind, even if your song ends up using techniques from 10 vastly different players, it still doesn't sound like you. It sounds like no-one. It's like Pinterest, but with guitar tricks  At least it felt that way to me, everything people were patting me on the back for and giving me praise for, I'd learned from someone. People couldn't tell of course, but I could, and it bummed me out after a few years (about 10 years). I didn't come up with sweeping, or tapping, or hybrid picking, or alternate picked 3nps runs through the minor scale. I just learned it and passed it off as my own "expression" which it wasn't of course.
> 
> My opinion is that mimicking 15 bands at once is only marginally more creative than mimicking just one band. The only thing different is that no-one's gonna recognize ALL those 15 bands' influence on you and point them all out, but the intention from your side is still the same. And to me, that eventually didn't satisfy me and I had to stop writing like a lead guitar player and go back to basics with an acoustic and a pen and paper. Or a piano, or lately a Maschine, but basically anything where I can't just fall back on my practiced guitar licks, so I actually have to sit and think about my writing instead, from a song perspective rather than an instrumentalist's perspective.
> 
> - edit - To clarify, what I mean is that sometimes just learning more music styles and more playing techniques isn't what you need to grow as a songwriter. Maybe what you need is to turn inwards and see what you can come up with on your own that truly represents you and no-one else. Maybe a rhythm, a chord progression or vocal approach you've never heard before. If the ideas you come up with require you to learn more techniques, then at least you'll figure them out on your own and maybe come up with something no-one's done before.



Ya I understand what you mean, I don't even practice many other peoples songs even though I'm preaching this. Most of my time practicing is just spent jamming without any goal in mind, or practicing songs I wrote. I honestly think that writing your own songs is the best way to improve your skills with any instrument.

But at the same time, I've seen lots of improvement in my playing and songwriting after I spend time learning parts of songs I like. I'm not saying to learn songs because you think that those techniques will give you the ultimate combination that will impress everyone. I'm just saying, learn songs that inspire you, learn songs that make you feel something, that way you know how to do the same thing yourself. I know what you mean when you say that you should look inside yourself to find your own style. But if you never learned any songs or studied songs that you like, you wont have anything inside to find. 

When I write, I don't think about using these techniques, I just write what feels good to me. Its just that if I never learned haunted shores songs I would have never learned the chords that Mark Holcomb uses, or the way that he uses open strings and big slides. If I never learned to play solos from Aaron Marshal I would never have learned how he slides up and down to notes or the way that he does his vibrato. It doesn't matter who or what inspires you, I just think that its really important to learn the techniques that you like to listen to so that your hands are able to unconsciously do those things when you're playing. Its been over a year since I learned a song from Intervals, but I still have some of the techniques I learned back then, and I still use them in my own style, and I continue to develop them in my own way. To me, the techniques you learn this way aren't the end goal, they're the beginning of your journey to creating your own style.

I think that in the end it shouldn't really be a scientific method to making a good song. You just have to figure out what about music inspires you, and how you can do those same things to inspire others. That's the goal at least, it just takes a lot of time and effort to get there.


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## JohnIce (Mar 26, 2015)

TallestFiddle said:


> ... if you never learned any songs or studied songs that you like, you wont have anything inside to find.



I'm not so sure of this, to be honest. As an example, I always had a knack for drawing and painting. And the creativity I had as a kid, and the skills I eventually built up, were not from study but by simply doing. Painting my imagination. The inspiration came from everywhere of course, all the time, but I never studied my influences or tried to replicate them. And it's the same with music, everything you hear adds to your musical experience, you don't have to actually study it or pick it apart to grow as a songwriter because, like I mentioned on the first page of this thread, your taste keeps developing separate from your skills. And taste could be all you need to be creative. Just look at Brian Eno, I'm not sure he can play even one instrument and he's still a celebrated composer. He knows what he likes and figures out how to get there.

I'm not saying learning other people's material is a bad idea, not at all, just that there's no reason to sell yourself short and rely on studying other people's ideas for you to become a better songwriter. Your imagination is way more powerful than that.


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 26, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> I'm not so sure of this, to be honest. As an example, I always had a knack for drawing and painting. And the creativity I had as a kid, and the skills I eventually built up, were not from study but by simply doing. Painting my imagination. The inspiration came from everywhere of course, all the time, but I never studied my influences or tried to replicate them. And it's the same with music, everything you hear adds to your musical experience, you don't have to actually study it or pick it apart to grow as a songwriter because, like I mentioned on the first page of this thread, your taste keeps developing separate from your skills. And taste could be all you need to be creative. Just look at Brian Eno, I'm not sure he can play even one instrument and he's still a celebrated composer. He knows what he likes and figures out how to get there.
> 
> I'm not saying learning other people's material is a bad idea, not at all, just that there's no reason to sell yourself short and rely on studying other people's ideas for you to become a better songwriter. Your imagination is way more powerful than that.



Ya I understand where you're coming from, I definitely agree that everything you hear adds to your musical experience, and you don't necessarily need to have studied anything. I shouldn't say that you wouldn't have anything to go from if you never learned someone else's music. 

You have to admit though, you must have sang along to other people's songs before you started singing your own songs. You wouldn't have been able to be a good singer if you never got any practice from anywhere, or if you never got inspiration from something. You don't just come up with melodies that you like from learning the scales, you come up with melodies you like based on the inspirations you've had from listening to music. I've listened to your songs before and I really enjoy them, but I'm sure you've spent at least some time in your life paying attention to why someone's song sounded cool. If you didn't think about it at least you played/sang along with it.

I understand that once you develop your own style you don't need to pay attention to what other people are doing. But I'm still learning, and I think that learning from people that are better than me is the fastest way to get better myself. When I hear a song I like, I take some time to think about why I enjoyed it, what aspects of it were enjoyable to me. Maybe I'll try to learn a part of the song because they do a cool trick on the guitar that I don't know how to do yet. Or maybe the drummer does a pattern that I haven't thought of before, so I'll study what hes doing so I might be able to remember some parts of it later.

I actually never learn to play other people's songs on bass but I still play and record my own bass. So that just goes to prove your point that you don't need to learn what someone else did to make your own music. But at the same time, I'm sure that if I practiced the techniques of a professional bass player I would have better bass in my songs.

Some parts of my music are analytical and some parts are improvisational, but I enjoy the music that I make (even if no one else does,) so I'll stand by my methods. I know that you enjoy the music you make because you defend your methods too.


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## Solodini (Mar 27, 2015)

When babies call for their mother "Mama!" they're usually descending a minor 3rd between intervals. When they move, they do so with some rhythm: they'll walk slowly, then someone will take their weight and they stamp their feet faster as they giggle.

Every vocalisation has a pitch, whether you intend to write music or not. Tonal languages exist where pitch affects the very meaning of the word, very drastically. Those developed over time, not necessarily from analysis of others. 

We all create music whether we intend to or not. 

You may become technically able to do more complicated things on bass if you studied other players but more complicated might not necessarily be better for the music you're playing. Obviously if the music you hear in your head requires a more complicated bass line then yes, mechanical ability will help you to achieve that, but you could conceptualise the same idea and play it 1/4 speed and achieve it, when you might not be able to achieve this at full speed. We also have machines which allow us to do things which are physically impossible. 

I doubt BT can physically produce most of the glitches which happen in his music but it doesn't affect his ability to conceptualise them. He has the ability with technology to actualise them, but that isn't entirely necessary, I wouldn't say. Plenty of music producers ask musicians to do certain things which they can't physically do themselves, but they hear in their imagination that it will probably work.

Mechanical ability certainly isn't a bad thing to have but you can develop the musical ability using free software, without requiring your playing ability to match up. You don't need to be a concert violinist to write a good violin line for your song.


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## JohnIce (Mar 27, 2015)

TallestFiddle said:


> Ya I understand where you're coming from, I definitely agree that everything you hear adds to your musical experience, and you don't necessarily need to have studied anything. I shouldn't say that you wouldn't have anything to go from if you never learned someone else's music.
> 
> You have to admit though, you must have sang along to other people's songs before you started singing your own songs. You wouldn't have been able to be a good singer if you never got any practice from anywhere, or if you never got inspiration from something. You don't just come up with melodies that you like from learning the scales, you come up with melodies you like based on the inspirations you've had from listening to music. I've listened to your songs before and I really enjoy them, but I'm sure you've spent at least some time in your life paying attention to why someone's song sounded cool. If you didn't think about it at least you played/sang along with it.
> 
> ...



First of all, thanks  I appreciate it!

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with most of your last post, which is why I quoted only the small bit that I cut out and replied specifically to that. I've spent loads of time analyzing and learning other people's songs and right now mimicking different singers to expand my vocal techniques is something I do on a daily basis  But this is something I do more to grow as a musician and performer rather than as a composer.

When you say you'd be able to play better bass if you studied more bass, you're totally right from an objective point of view. I talked about this in another thread recently, but "good" and "bad" playing requires a measurable standard and that standard is set by the best players (like Wooten etc.). This means, the more you sound like those players, the more people will think you're "good". But the less room you have to be innovative. The more innovative something is, the less similar it can be to those great players, and the less impressive you'll sound simply as a result of that. And this points to the question: Is better really what you want? Is it what people want to hear? Would people enjoy Björk if she sang more like Mariah Carey?

Solodini said it well: "You don't need to be a concert violinist to write a good violin line for your song."  Not having a clue can result in a more open mind. A lot of my favorite guitar parts I wrote on a keyboard, which is why they sound fresh on the guitar.


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## TallestFiddle (Mar 27, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> I talked about this in another thread recently, but "good" and "bad" playing requires a measurable standard and that standard is set by the best players (like Wooten etc.). This means, the more you sound like those players, the more people will think you're "good". But the less room you have to be innovative. The more innovative something is, the less similar it can be to those great players, and the less impressive you'll sound simply as a result of that. And this points to the question: Is better really what you want?



I couldn't agree more, too many people get wrapped up in being the "best." I used to get really stressed out when I'd hear some new bands where they were shredding like crazy. I'd start thinking about how much worse I was, and how many people there were that were better than me. But after a while I realized that they weren't "better" they just played faster, or differently, I actually didn't even like the music very much.

To me, someone being "better" just means that they know something I don't that I would like to know, or I enjoy listening to their music more than I enjoy listening to my own. I think Tosin Abasi is more skilled as a guitar player than I am, but I'm not trying to make music like him so I don't care if hes "better" than me.



Solodini said:


> Obviously if the music you hear in your head requires a more complicated bass line then yes, mechanical ability will help you to achieve that, but you could conceptualise the same idea and play it 1/4 speed and achieve it, when you might not be able to achieve this at full speed. We also have machines which allow us to do things which are physically impossible.
> 
> ...Mechanical ability certainly isn't a bad thing to have but you can develop the musical ability using free software, without requiring your playing ability to match up. You don't need to be a concert violinist to write a good violin line for your song.



Believe me, I understand what you mean, because I program drums and I have no mechanical skills for drumming. I program synths and strings and have no mechanical skills on a keyboard. But to me, the best music that I make is made when I'm not thinking about it. Its made when I'm just hearing what I'm playing, my fingers and hands are just an extension of my ears, playing exactly what I want to hear next. This type of playing is not possible unless your mechanical skills are at the same level as your ear. I wish I knew how to translate what I hear in my head onto paper, or into the computer without an instrument, I hope someday I'm able to do that.

You're right though I've come up with a lot of stuff that I liked just plugging in notes into some tab editing software using my ear and nothing else. Sometimes you come up with some really unique stuff that way, and I know there's a bunch of people who write entire songs like this.


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## HumanFuseBen (Mar 27, 2015)

Man, my experience has been that you can never force creativity. It just has to come back to you. So if i'm stuck on something, or maybe i'm just not inspired, i try to use that bit of time constructively and either work on learning someone else's stuff for a while or just bust out the metronome and work on my chops. One of two things usually happen after a while:

1: i'll find something in someone else's work that will give me a shot of inspiration or an idea to add to my own work.

2: i'll get so bored of working with a metronome that my mind will start to wander towards creating something as a means of escape!

Good luck, i'm sure it will come back to you!


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## Solodini (Mar 31, 2015)

TallestFiddle said:


> Believe me, I understand what you mean, because I program drums and I have no mechanical skills for drumming. I program synths and strings and have no mechanical skills on a keyboard. But to me, the best music that I make is made when I'm not thinking about it. Its made when I'm just hearing what I'm playing, my fingers and hands are just an extension of my ears, playing exactly what I want to hear next. This type of playing is not possible unless your mechanical skills are at the same level as your ear. I wish I knew how to translate what I hear in my head onto paper, or into the computer without an instrument, I hope someday I'm able to do that.
> 
> You're right though I've come up with a lot of stuff that I liked just plugging in notes into some tab editing software using my ear and nothing else. Sometimes you come up with some really unique stuff that way, and I know there's a bunch of people who write entire songs like this.


 
For me, that's possible to do directly with technology, sometimes easier than with an instrument. Sometimes that's by score, sometimes by piano roll in Logic Pro. I hear it in my head and know how to put it out, like others do with instruments. It's just a process of learning how to reproduce the sounds in your head.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Apr 1, 2015)

Axayacatl said:


> - The music you're listening to isn't necessarily the music you want or can write at that particular point in time. I want to be the next Muha and write the next Necrophagist album but when I sit down and write music it sounds more like Guthre Govan and David Gilmour suddenly lost all their talent and then got super high and drunk and had an unproductive afternoon and then ordered pizza. So be it, that is the inner voice I'm carrying at that moment. No can do, no forcing will change that. We're talking about art, not a constipated stool.



This. This! So much THIS!

Honestly, I wish someone told me this 4-5 years ago. There is nothing wrong with writing music that's different than 1) What you think is cool, and 2) What your friends think is cool. 

For years, I've tried to write metal, and everything always ended up either trope-ish, or just bad. I'd always walk away from a project disappointed. 

..Then, I'd jam out to some rock backing tracks, play with some other people in blues bands, and guess what? I walked away from those experiences feeling one hundred percent satisfied. I made some _music_ those evenings. I had a smile on my face. All was right in the world. 

..And then, I'd go try to write the next most technical, difficult, ridiculous metal song I could think of, because that's what I think is cool, and that's what my friends liked. And it usually came out like _crap_. If people like Axayacatl weren't around, I would never have figured out _why_.

Still reading, and want to know why some random guy on the internet was writing poopy metal? Ok. You may not like what I have to say...

While metal _inspires_ me to better myself as a musician, and is damn cool to just enjoy, it's not what I want to express as a musician (at least, not all of the time). 

Since I came to that realization, it's not like the world flipped over, and all of a sudden I'm writing music for Bob Seger, but this did happen: I sit down to write/play, and I play what I want to express, _and it puts a .... eating grin on my face_. I play/write things that make my bingle tingle. And it sounds like poppy/happy rock/prog, and you know what? That's ok. I'm a happy person. It's a little difficult summoning the hatred of the pantheon when you are generally upbeat/optimistic. 

What I'm trying to say, is that the things that _inspire_ you are sometimes totally different than the thing you are trying to say, _and that's ok_.

I'm not saying you shouldn't challenge yourself. There is no progress without challenge! I am saying that you don't have to subscribe to a particular genre of music when you are writing something. 

We all have a creative voice, and it's up to you to listen to it, instead of telling it "that's stupid, I want you to do this instead". 

Now I'm going to back to writing a rock song with an AC/DC rhythm feel, and the Pete Thorn-y lead feel goodness, and when I'm done, I'm going to drink a beer and put some Devildriver and Lamb of God on. With a .... eating grin on my face.


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## Low Baller (Apr 29, 2015)

The best thing to break writers block for me is to be proactive. Don't wait for inspiration to hit you go find it. I find the best way for me is once a day I record a riff or peice of a song any idea and leave the criticism out of it. Doesn't have to be perfect or any genre complex or simple just whatever comes out. By the end of the week I listen and that's when I get critical. But I end up with a collection of different genres and ideas and when I go through I find certain ideas connect and then I have a song. The key is just record even if your not crazy about the riff when you listen again you may like it or it may inspire a bass or drum part or even vocals.


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