# guitarist who are actually good, but get a bad wrap



## M3CHK1LLA (Sep 5, 2020)

i've got a few in mind but im curious what names will pop up. one obvious one for me is mab...

ive heard/read so much criticism about him before that i never listened to any of his music. in fact it was years before i checked any of it out...and that was an accident lol.

sure he's got crazy/weird looking guitars, but the dude can play! there are others i'll mention later but let's here some of your opinions. 

discuss...


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## Dayn (Sep 5, 2020)

Dragonforce in their early days. Apparently, they were pushed on tour quickly and had bugger-all time to rehearse.

When I saw them in 2015, they were almost flawless. Until the very end, where Sam flubbed a single note in the acoustic intro to Through the Fire and Flames. Otherwise they were phenomenal.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Sep 5, 2020)

Dayn said:


> Dragonforce in their early days. Apparently, they were pushed on tour quickly and had bugger-all time to rehearse.
> 
> When I saw them in 2015, they were almost flawless. Until the very end, where Sam flubbed a single note in the acoustic intro to Through the Fire and Flames. Otherwise they were phenomenal.


definitely...

not my style of music but i can respect their abilities. ive seen numerous videos and they can put on a show while playing some complex stuff.

herman gets most of the attention but if sam were in another band he'd be top dog imho.


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## Zhysick (Sep 5, 2020)

My main complain with Dragonforce (appart of not liking their music) is how bad his former (even the actual one) singer is in a live situation. Man, that was awful... apart from that, they are actually good... I will have to check Sam again because last time I checked on them I found him very very sloppy...

MAB is a BEAST of a guitar but he has just a few songs that I like (and Speed Kills is a fucking amazing tone, I love that melody), also, live he is a fucking amazing guy: very close to the people, funny as hell and all that "the keys of the lamborghini", "I went to the gym to get faster at guitar" and all that performance is just acting and he does it fucking well. I knew him just for a few songs I didn't like him very much, thought of him as a clown and maybe even unrespectful about the guitar world, but after seeing him live (I went because he came to fucking Tenerife and that was like... "really? you coming here?" so I had to go and the ticket was just like 10€) I have a real respect for the guy. I actually think he is, probably, a very very nice person. Chatting with him after the show was very cool.

I can't think of one guitarist for this thread but I will come back and check because I think this is a nice thread to get recommendations on musicians and to re-check.

Nice M3CHK1LLA


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## thraxil (Sep 5, 2020)

Dayn said:


> Dragonforce in their early days. Apparently, they were pushed on tour quickly and had bugger-all time to rehearse.
> 
> When I saw them in 2015, they were almost flawless. Until the very end, where Sam flubbed a single note in the acoustic intro to Through the Fire and Flames. Otherwise they were phenomenal.



Huh. I saw them back in 2006 or so, when they were touring for Inhuman Rampage and they were pretty much flawless even back then. Didn't realize they had any kind of reputation of not being able to pull it off live.


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## jaxadam (Sep 5, 2020)

Good call on the Dragonforce guys. I'll second MAB, and also add Chris Impellitteri and Joe Stump.


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## Zhysick (Sep 5, 2020)

jaxadam said:


> Good call on the Dragonforce guys. I'll second MAB, and also add Chris Impellitteri and Joe Stump.



Never knew they had bad rep or something... I have always thought of them as stellar guitarists (even thou I like Impellitery but don't like Stump's records as far as I remember... pretty sure he has tons more than I can remember)


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 5, 2020)

Fine, I’ll say it... Kirk Hammett.

No, he’s not as brilliant a guitarist as many of his contemporaries, but he’s nowhere near as bad as the internet pretends he is.

At the end of the day, he’s *still* getting paid for the Black album. 

And the ESP KH-2 is a staggeringly good guitar.


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 5, 2020)

Sam Totman is the most underrated guitarist I can think of who also gets a really bad rep. He writes(or did write for the first few albums) 90%+ of the music. So he wrote all the lead lines, recorded them for demos to teach Herman, then un-learned them so he could learn the harmony lines, records them on the actual album recordings and has to play them live without ever slipping back into the original lead lines he wrote. The amount of decoration they ad to their twin lead lines is ridiculous at times. While on a more technical level position and speed wise Cacophony, Racer X and Necrophagist aren't on the same level of difficulty as what Dragonforce does in this regard. I can’t think of any other guitarist who has to do something at Sams level. 

First time I saw them live they were super tight and was one of the best gigs I’ve been to. Second time they were chugging from a Jack Daniels bottle inbetween songs. Sam got so drunk he forgot what song they were playing and just started bending the 15th fret for about 4 bars until he figured out what song it was. Which was easily one of the worst gigs I’ve been to.

The bad rep is well earned. Their live show got very sloppy the point they started getting famous(guitar hero) which was disastrous.


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## Bogner (Sep 5, 2020)

Zakk Wylde


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## jaxadam (Sep 5, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> Never knew they had bad rep or something... I have always thought of them as stellar guitarists (even thou I like Impellitery but don't like Stump's records as far as I remember... pretty sure he has tons more than I can remember)



I've heard a lot of people rip on Impellitteri for being too mechanical and "up and down the scales" but dude can rip. I think the Joe Stump Yngwie clone thing did more harm than good to his reputation of being "Yngwie lite" but I sometimes prefer Joe's playing over Yngwie's.


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## High Plains Drifter (Sep 5, 2020)

If going by SSO standards then pretty much every single popular mainstream guitarist that has ever been heard on any radio station... ever.


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## cardinal (Sep 5, 2020)

I was coming in here to say Kirk Hammett and Zakk Wylde. I think both in the '80s and '90s were respected but you don't generally see that these days on internet forums.

Kirk's vibrato is sorta nervous sounding, but in generally the dude has laid down some killer stuff. And whatever Zakk is putting out now, dude was in absolute beast mode for No More Tears.

I wish I sucked only half as bad as those guys.


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## MFB (Sep 5, 2020)

John Mayer

Dude did go to Berklee, and has written some dope tunes (see: Continuum), but he chooses to err on the simpler side and make bank and screw as many hot celebs as he can.

I mean shit, he was at Jason Becker's place to do the Ice Bucket Challenge; fucking JB, of all people!


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## BenjaminW (Sep 5, 2020)

MFB said:


> John Mayer
> 
> Dude did go to Berklee, and has written some dope tunes (see: Continuum), but he chooses to err on the simpler side and make bank and screw as many hot celebs as he can.
> 
> I mean shit, he was at Jason Becker's place to do the Ice Bucket Challenge; fucking JB, of all people!


I second this. Neon, especially the Live from LA version, kicks fucking ass.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 5, 2020)

Bogner said:


> Zakk Wylde



This. Dude gets a bad rep because "mUh pEnTaToNiC bOxEs", but dude still can rip. Dude can do more with 4 - 5 notes than most people can do with full theory knowledge. 

Kirk Hammett back in the day too. At least up until the 2000s. I fucking LOVE his lead work on AJFA. But yeah, he's gotten sloppy since then. His lead work on Hardwired is baaaaaad. If your introduction to Kirk's lead playing was within the passed 10 years, then yeah, I can understand the hate. 

I was gonna say Mark Tremonti, but his reputation has been getting better and better the further away he gets from Creed.  Although the last Creed album had some decent bangers like Bread of Shame.

Dan from Disturbed also comes to mind. Dude isn't a super-shredder, but his leads are memorable as fuck.

Jim and Mick from Slipknot. They got a bad rap for the longest time because they didn't shred in Slipknot, but when they let loose, they fucking let loose. Some cool, unique phrasing from both dudes.


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## sakeido (Sep 5, 2020)

BenjaminW said:


> I second this. Neon, especially the Live from LA version, kicks fucking ass.



gotta throw this in here


Mayer is unreal. The guitar part itself is mega hard then he does awesome vocals on top of it. He's like the Dave Davidson of acoustic guitar


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 5, 2020)

Neon is one of the best guitar songs of the 2000s.

You can't change my mind.


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## Edika (Sep 5, 2020)

sakeido said:


> gotta throw this in here
> 
> 
> Mayer is unreal. The guitar part itself is mega hard then he does awesome vocals on top of it. He's like the Dave Davidson of acoustic guitar




I've heard of John Mayer but I think this is the first time I'm hearing one of his songs. And I thinking "why, why is this the first time I'm hearing this?".


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## Mathemagician (Sep 5, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This. Dude gets a bad rep because "mUh pEnTaToNiC bOxEs", but dude still can rip. Dude can do more with 4 - 5 notes than most people can do with full theory knowledge.
> 
> Kirk Hammett back in the day too. At least up until the 2000s. I fucking LOVE his lead work on AJFA. But yeah, he's gotten sloppy since then. His lead work on Hardwired is baaaaaad. If your introduction to Kirk's lead playing was within the passed 10 years, then yeah, I can understand the hate.
> 
> ...



Dan deserves more credit. Honestly his solos are so catchy/fit so nicely with the songs that like if they were maybe only double the length so like 20-30 seconds instead of a few cool bars around 10 seconds that I think he’d be more regarded. I don’t think he ever came off as trying to seem like a “shredder” in interviews though. But he can write a catchy leads.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 5, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> Dan deserves more credit. Honestly his solos are so catchy/fit so nicely with the songs that like if they were maybe only double the length so like 20-30 seconds instead of a few cool bars around 10 seconds that I think he’d be more regarded. I don’t think he ever came off as trying to seem like a “shredder” in interviews though. But he can write a catchy leads.



It's why Stricken is one of my favorite solos. It's 35 seconds long, but no single note goes to waste.


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## Alex79 (Sep 5, 2020)

Jason Hook is quite good, just his band FFDP is so cringeworthy.


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## Mathemagician (Sep 5, 2020)

sakeido said:


> gotta throw this in here
> 
> 
> Mayer is unreal. The guitar part itself is mega hard then he does awesome vocals on top of it. He's like the Dave Davidson of acoustic guitar




Yooooo, which album should I start with? Just from the beginning? Are there any you particularly recommend live or studio. 



Alex79 said:


> Jason Hook is quite good, just his band FFDP is so cringeworthy.



Yeah they write catchy light metal for what it’s worth. They played the ultimate pro gamer move, but your own guitar company = infinite signature models. I’m glad they found a crazy level of success, but their “shtick” isn’t for me.


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## NotDonVito (Sep 5, 2020)

I'll comment on the dragonforce thing and say that Sam actually is a pretty sloppy player cause from what I know he doesn't care about guitars and practicing that much. He plays as a means to write songs and be in a band. He didn't even know what a signature guitar was until Ibanez asked him to design one in 2007. That being said, when he's "in the zone", or recording something, he's always comes up with insane stuff, especially on the newer albums.


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## mpexus (Sep 5, 2020)

Chris _Motherfucking_ Holmes!!!!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 5, 2020)

NotDonVito said:


> I'll comment on the dragonforce thing and say that Sam actually is a pretty sloppy player cause from what I know he doesn't care about guitars and practicing that much. He plays as a means to write songs and be in a band. He didn't even know what a signature guitar was until Ibanez asked him to design one in 2007. That being said, when he's "in the zone", or recording something, he's always comes up with insane stuff, especially on the newer albums.




He should quit playing metal and start his true calling


bluegrass


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## MFB (Sep 5, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> Yooooo, which album should I start with? Just from the beginning? Are there any you particularly recommend live or studio..



_Continuum_ is his strongest from start to finish in my opinion, and then _Battle Studies_ after that. _Room for Squares_ first four songs were all big hits in their day as well, but there's peaks and valleys on there where its four bangers back to back, then three I'm just meh'd by.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 5, 2020)

mpexus said:


> Chris _Motherfucking_ Holmes!!!!



The thing that sucks about him and that everyone seems to be in agreement that he's a damn good guitarist, songwriter, and had a unique, monstrous sound. It was his demons and addictions that fucked up his reputation. Well, that and his recent songs with his terrible vocals.


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## c7spheres (Sep 5, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The thing that sucks about him and that everyone seems to be in agreement that he's a damn good guitarist, songwriter, and had a unique, monstrous sound. It was his demons and addictions that fucked up his reputation. Well, that and his recent songs with his terrible vocals.



Yeah, what the heck happened? He got sober and the music went bad. Same happens to a lot of bands, like Metallica for example. Alcohol and drugs really does seem to make better music.


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## mpexus (Sep 5, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Yeah, what the heck happened? He got sober and the music went bad. Same happens to a lot of bands, like Metallica for example. Alcohol and drugs really does seem to make better music.



Its happened what happens to most of us. He got Old and stayed in the past... meaning he is somehow outdated on what a Song should be. Also a life of excess will collect further down the road. And it collected from him.

I only saw him once during the Kill Fuck Die Tour... always missed WASP for whatever reason but that Tour it was on a venue like 2 min walking from my house and I was there. I saw a roadie getting him from the Tour Bus and he had to grab him since he could barely walk. Me and others around though...damn he is totally wasted. 30-45 min later he was a fucking Animal on top of that stage.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 5, 2020)

Going off the Jim Root/Mick Thompson point, Psychosocial is one of the most well-done songs I've ever heard and both of their solos are so perfectly on point for what that song needed. They can play, the songs just don't need it. Their riffs and leads tend to speak enough, although I can think of a few places on We Are Not Your Kind where Jim could've let loose a little rather than having more vocals.


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## Science_Penguin (Sep 5, 2020)

I dunno whether or not my favorite guitarists go to Subway, so I have no idea if they get bad wraps.

Yngwie had a pretty bad experience with doughnuts if I remember correctly. Dunno if he deserved that, I mean, I know he's a dick, but as a guitarist, he's got some talent.


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## Randy (Sep 5, 2020)

CC Deville. Flame away.


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## BenjaminW (Sep 5, 2020)

Randy said:


> CC Deville. Flame away.


No bullshit, Nothin' But A Good Time and the solo to Every Rose Has Its Thorn kick ass. 

I will say though that I do get some Slash vibes from the Every Rose solo though.


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## The Mirror (Sep 6, 2020)

Bad rep? 

Easy. Nuno. 

99% of the world knows him as "that other dude" playing guitar in More Than Words. Funny enough, in the radio version of the song they even cut out the small tapping run at the end of the track, so there is not even a tiny reference of what the dude is capable of.

Aside from guitar centered places like in here, if I told anyone on the street: "Remember Extreme? Those dudes with the cheesy acoustic ballad that your first girlfriend always listened to back in the days? Yeah. The guitar player in there is one of the most fluid, technical and inventive dudes that mainstream Rock music has ever seen." Well.


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## mastapimp (Sep 6, 2020)

Travis Meeks from Days of the New comes to mind. Early on, his band caught a lot of shit for the 'yarling' and AiC comparisons but considering he recorded the first album when he was 17 is pretty impressive. The radio singles don't do his true playing and composition skills justice, in my opinion.

As for Zakk Wylde, I saw him on two occasions doing acoustic sets in the mid 90s. Once with Pride and Glory and the other time solo, and he he was very restrained in his pentatonics. This was prior to his 'roided up biker gang gimmick. After seeing him perform in this stripped down setting, his playing really shined. Still a fan of all his work with Ozzy but he lost me with BLS. Also makes me cringe hearing him in interviews put on his "bad ass persona," especially after personally speaking to him in a normal setting after both shows. Thankfully, he's mostly dialed it back these days after his health scare.


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## mpexus (Sep 6, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Bad rep?
> 
> Easy. Nuno.
> 
> 99% of the world knows him as "that other dude" playing guitar in More Than Words.



Really Because Gary is the weakest Link on that band for sure  Also More Than Words is such a Cheesey tune. Glad from them that it become a Huge Hit but its freaking Cheesy


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## Leviathus (Sep 6, 2020)

Yeah, I can dig a cool ballad, but More Than Words is super trash.


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## c7spheres (Sep 6, 2020)

Randy said:


> CC Deville. Flame away.





BenjaminW said:


> No bullshit, Nothin' But A Good Time and the solo to Every Rose Has Its Thorn kick ass.
> 
> I will say though that I do get some Slash vibes from the Every Rose solo though.



Nothin but a Good Time was the first "real" song I learned (just the rhythm part) . It was the end of 1989 and I'd just picked up a guitar and finally didn't have to learn an more Ode to Joy or anything like that.

I really love the solo CC does on Give me Somthing to Believe In though. That's a great solo and on that guitar.





And another few guys are Tom Keifer from Cinderalla, Blackie Lawless from W.A.S.P. , and Dave "the snake: Sabo from Skid Row. So many incredible players outta the 80's. Just ton's of great stuff going on there. The 80's gets a lot of shit but it really was one of the best decades. People did what the hell they wanted. It was termed the decade of decadence for good reason. THe 80's was the decade of guitar god's and virtuoso's everwhere and guitar was in it's prime!


Kramer porn!


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## fps (Sep 6, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Fine, I’ll say it... Kirk Hammett.
> 
> No, he’s not as brilliant a guitarist as many of his contemporaries, but he’s nowhere near as bad as the internet pretends he is.
> 
> ...



He's a player who's really distinctive and plays his way. That doesn't get as much respect as it should. I love players where I know who it is immediately, and being a little rough around the edges, or having distinct note choices, is a big part of that normally.


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## ArtDecade (Sep 6, 2020)

Some of y'all are too young to remember the 80s. Nuno? Snake? Keifer? Blackie? Holmes? These guys were on every cover of every magazine back in the day and people were stealing their licks left and right. Their music may have fallen out of style and tosspots like Cobain ragged on them, but they never had a bad wrap because of their playing. It had more to do with the image of the times. Looking back on it, I find it hilarious that 90 pound junkies dressing like lumberjacks had the gall to call out any band from LA - and that includes Poison.


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## drgamble (Sep 6, 2020)

Reb Beach anyone? Winger was a bunch of session guys that started a band. Seventeen in cringeworthy, but the solos are insane. Headed for a Heartbreak was a much better song. Beavis and Butthead made it really uncool to like Winger back in the day, but some of those solos are great.


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## Avedas (Sep 6, 2020)

John Mayer ever had a bad reputation as a guitarist? As a person maybe, and I suppose diehard metalheads probably weren't into his music, but the man is very skilled and knowledgeable with guitar.


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## Seabeast2000 (Sep 6, 2020)

mpexus said:


> Really Because Gary is the weakest Link on that band for sure  Also More Than Words is such a Cheesey tune. Glad from them that it become a Huge Hit but its freaking Cheesy


Hole hearted is better imo.


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## BornToLooze (Sep 6, 2020)

Avedas said:


> John Mayer ever had a bad reputation as a guitarist? As a person maybe, and I suppose diehard metalheads probably weren't into his music, but the man is very skilled and knowledgeable with guitar.



Wasn't him that did that You're Body is a Wonderland song? Because even though I know he's a good guitar player, that and the fight riff are the first two things that come to mind.


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## c7spheres (Sep 6, 2020)

drgamble said:


> Reb Beach anyone? Winger was a bunch of session guys that started a band. Seventeen in cringeworthy, but the solos are insane. Headed for a Heartbreak was a much better song. Beavis and Butthead made it really uncool to like Winger back in the day, but some of those solos are great.



Super clean player. And his Ibanez model was pretty ahead of it's time along with the Steingberger. Not my personal kinda thing but still really cool anyways.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 6, 2020)

drgamble said:


> Reb Beach anyone? Winger was a bunch of session guys that started a band. Seventeen in cringeworthy, but the solos are insane. Headed for a Heartbreak was a much better song. Beavis and Butthead made it really uncool to like Winger back in the day, but some of those solos are great.



Yep. Winger haters need to also check out Pull.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 6, 2020)

fps said:


> He's a player who's really distinctive and plays his way. That doesn't get as much respect as it should. I love players where I know who it is immediately, and being a little rough around the edges, or having distinct note choices, is a big part of that normally.



I seriously like that take. I personally got a wah when I started playing just to sound like Kirk and can honestly say I started playing to sound like Metallica. My studio teacher will talk trash on Kenny G all day long but he always ends his rants by saying he's making more money than any of us are and he's brought the saxophone to more people than we have our whole lives. For that, he'll always be a legend.


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## Rosal76 (Sep 6, 2020)

TheBolivianSniper said:


> My studio teacher will talk trash on Kenny G all day long



I'm not a full blown Kenny G fan by any stretch but I love that song, Missing you now, he did with Michael Bolton. When I first heard it, I actually did not know Kenny played on it. When I heard his saxophone solo, I was like, "that has to be Kenny G". He really does have his own sax style.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 6, 2020)

Rosal76 said:


> I'm not a full blown Kenny G fan by any stretch but I love that song, Missing you now, he did with Michael Bolton. When I first heard it, I actually did not know Kenny played on it. When I heard his saxophone solo, I was like, "that has to be Kenny G". He really does have his own sax style.



I'll give him shit for not being the best but he has his market and knows how to use his sound and that's impressive in and of himself. I don't have the most respect for his playing but I hold him in high regard for promoting himself, developing and sticking with a style, and really selling himself to his audience. Really I feel like a lot of musicians could take a page out of his book. Don't worry about being the best technically or even play the best, just know what you can do and market it extremely well.


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## BigViolin (Sep 6, 2020)

What about committing musical necrophilia? We good with that?


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## technomancer (Sep 6, 2020)

drgamble said:


> Reb Beach anyone? Winger was a bunch of session guys that started a band. Seventeen in cringeworthy, but the solos are insane. Headed for a Heartbreak was a much better song. Beavis and Butthead made it really uncool to like Winger back in the day, but some of those solos are great.



Reb is a freaking beast, no two ways about it.


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## Pat (Sep 7, 2020)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> i've got a few in mind but im curious what names will pop up. one obvious one for me is mab...
> 
> ive heard/read so much criticism about him before that i never listened to any of his music. in fact it was years before i checked any of it out...and that was an accident lol.
> 
> ...


I get what you mean about MAB - he's an insane player but I just can't listen to most of his songs.

Example, his new stuff shows his technical ability really well, but I don't think they're good songs at the end of the day


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## Louis Cypher (Sep 7, 2020)

I 100% agree that CC and Reb are both great players who arent given a fair go because of the stigma behind the bands they were in, Reb is a total monster and tho the debut album might be cheesy, In the Heart of the Young and Pull especially are great albums. And CC, aisde from the solos being great the riffs are some of the most memorable of the time - Nuthin' But a Good Time, Talk Dirty To Me, Look What the Cat Dragged In, Unskinny Bop...... I still regularly listen to Open Up... and Flesh & Blood


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## Flappydoodle (Sep 7, 2020)

Kirk was good back in the AJFA days. Wrote some awesome solos on the Black Album too. But he's definitely had some REALLY awful times since them. I think he has been having some personal problems, judging by his behaviour and god-awful performance and solos on the Hardwired album. But a few recent live shows on YouTube, he seems pretty good again. He has a well-deserved bad rap nowadays IMO.

Who goes on my list? 

Synyster Gates. He's actually an incredible guitarist. Writes a ton of good riffs, amazing shredding solos, melodic and tuneful solos, and can play good cleans too. He's technically very skilled - can alternate pick, hybrid pick, finger pick, sweep pick. He gas great vibrato. Awesome improvisational skills too, and he's versatile. People shit on a7x all the time, but he is really talented, without a doubt.


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## jaxadam (Sep 7, 2020)

Brad Paisley


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 7, 2020)

I will defend Synyster Gates to the death 100%, The Stage was such an impressive album and A7X are imo the metal band with the most effect on pop culture in the 2010s


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## technomancer (Sep 7, 2020)

Louis Cypher said:


> I 100% agree that CC and Reb are both great players who arent given a fair go because of the stigma behind the bands they were in, Reb is a total monster and tho the debut album might be cheesy, In the Heart of the Young and Pull especially are great albums. And CC, aisde from the solos being great the riffs are some of the most memorable of the time - Nuthin' But a Good Time, Talk Dirty To Me, Look What the Cat Dragged In, Unskinny Bop...... I still regularly listen to Open Up... and Flesh & Blood



I'll add to this and say CC was a good writer. Having seen him live a couple times not sure if it was the coke or what but his improv was absolutely horrific.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 7, 2020)

You know what

Fuck it

brOla.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 7, 2020)

Do people think Ola is bad? He's admitted himself that he doesn't practice as much as he should but he's still a beast when he gets serious. Most of his playing is just for fun or casual but when he wants to play he's really good imo


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 7, 2020)

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Do people think Ola is bad? He's admitted himself that he doesn't practice as much as he should but he's still a beast when he gets serious. Most of his playing is just for fun or casual but when he wants to play he's really good imo


For the longest time people said he's just a drop D chugger that writes generic death metal music.


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## RevDrucifer (Sep 7, 2020)

Clint from Sevendust gets no respect from the older crowd of guitarist. They hear a drop-tuned guitar and dismiss it right away. I actually just brought this up on the Fractal forum today when Cliff made a swipe at drop tuning guitars and how low people are going to go. IMO, Clint's a songwriter first and a whoop ass guitar player 2nd, but the dude can still tear it up.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 7, 2020)

I’m surprised to see Brad Paisley or Synyster Gates on this thread!

I was always under the impression that guitarists loved BP, as a middle class British chap (who therefore knows nothing about ‘real’ country music) I see him as everything good about modern country guitar and had no idea that anyone thought otherwise. What little mention country ever gets in the U.K. press was always so positive! I gives the tables turned when he did that accidental racist song?

And Syn, I always thought folks realised he was paying the bills in a pop metal band. And probably paying them very, very easily


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## works0fheart (Sep 7, 2020)

Surprised no one has said it yet, but the guys from Trivium. They've gotten a lot of flack for years now and have always had a good sense of humor about it and just shrugged it off. Both of them can shred hard as fuck, write some catchy riffs, and still manage to keep their sound metal without selling out as hard as a lot of other bands from their era have. I wasn't a fan initially and I caught them live a few times and they're the real deal. Matt is super wholesome and a true guitar loving nerd like the rest of us.

I initially got into them through the album Shogun while kind of liking a few songs from their early stuff, but to me Shogun was their magnum opus. Recently though I remember browsing through YouTube to watch the Spawn reveal trailer for MK11 and thought the track playing in the background sounded awesome so I looked it up and it was off of Triviums newest album. The song ended up being Scattering the Ashes. I'd highly recommend the album (What the Dead Men Say) to the people here being there's a lot of great wheedly wees and riffs on it. Personal favorites are the aforementioned track, the title track, and The Defiant for that catchy ass chorus and vocal-like solo.





After I gave it a listen I then realized Matt streams on Twitch so I started to watch him on there a lot going through his gear and playing games with his chat. I've built up a lot of respect for him to have come as far as he has for having people constantly ragging on his band where in all seriousness, the dude is incredibly talented both as a singer and guitarist.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 7, 2020)

RevDrucifer said:


> Clint from Sevendust gets no respect from the older crowd of guitarist. They hear a drop-tuned guitar and dismiss it right away. I actually just brought this up on the Fractal forum today when Cliff made a swipe at drop tuning guitars and how low people are going to go. IMO, Clint's a songwriter first and a whoop ass guitar player 2nd, but the dude can still tear it up.



Yes this. exactly this. Ever since he rejoined Sevendust the dude has been letting it rip. The End is Coming, Dirty... the dude is fucking great.

But yeah, even in the early days of Sevendust IIRC, he cited Steve Vai as an influence.


----------



## Decapitated (Sep 8, 2020)

I think a lot of the 80s guitarist don’t get near the credit they deserve. My pick: Harry Cody from Shotgun Messiah. This solo rips. Fight me.
(2:29)


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## Leviathus (Sep 8, 2020)

Randy said:


> CC Deville. Flame away.


I'm with ya. We oughtta throw Mick Mars up on the board too. Not a top 80's shredder ofc, but he definitely had some riffs.


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## Kobalt (Sep 8, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> For the longest time people said he's just a drop D chugger that writes generic death metal music.


Fine by me, I’d take his chops any day.

He can churn some killer riffs.


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## Decapitated (Sep 8, 2020)

Randy said:


> CC Deville. Flame away.



The reason I started playing guitar.


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## Seabeast2000 (Sep 8, 2020)

Decapitated said:


> The reason I started playing guitar.


Haha literally the intro to TDTM might have been the first powerchords I learnt.


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## Decapitated (Sep 8, 2020)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Haha literally the intro to TDTM might have been the first powerchords I learnt.



I thought the solo for “I Won’t Forget You” was the coolest thing ever


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 8, 2020)

Leviathus said:


> I'm with ya. We oughtta throw Mick Mars up on the board too. Not a top 80's shredder ofc, but he definitely had some riffs.



Fuck yeah give my man Mick some cred. I always bring him up when threads like these come up. The best part is he can still play really well and cares a ton about his music yet.


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## Mathemagician (Sep 8, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> ...
> 
> Who goes on my list?
> 
> Synyster Gates. He's actually an incredible guitarist. Writes a ton of good riffs, amazing shredding solos, melodic and tuneful solos, and can play good cleans too. He's technically very skilled - can alternate pick, hybrid pick, finger pick, sweep pick. He gas great vibrato. Awesome improvisational skills too, and he's versatile. People shit on a7x all the time, but he is really talented, without a doubt.





TheBolivianSniper said:


> I will defend Synyster Gates to the death 100%, The Stage was such an impressive album and A7X are imo the metal band with the most effect on pop culture in the 2010s



The band that wrote an entire progressive thrash album that was complex enough that they didn’t feel like ever trying to “top” it directly again? 

Fuck yes. 

A7X’s City of Evil was my shit when it came out, that album and Trivium’s Ascendancy introduced me to Drop-D. 

And trivium managed to write a different album every time without ever writing a bad one. The haters are all just dorks that 12 years later still wish they had written more Shoguns.


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## RevDrucifer (Sep 9, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yes this. exactly this. Ever since he rejoined Sevendust the dude has been letting it rip. The End is Coming, Dirty... the dude is fucking great.
> 
> But yeah, even in the early days of Sevendust IIRC, he cited Steve Vai as an influence.



Him and Morgan got up onstage with Vai at a show he did in NJ. It was during the part of the set where Vai would grab a random audience member to have them create a song onstage. 

I had him sign the back of my JEM a few years back. They were playing down the street and I went to the venue a little early, Clint came back from a run, changed on the bus and came back out to talk to me. (I was the only person there) He flipped it over and saw the Dimebag picture on the back and goes “Man, Vai and Dimebag....you’re a man of my own heart!”

I’m not really an autograph kinda guy, I don’t have any others, but Clint gave me a lot of support and advice via Twitter when I was straightening myself out and wanted to stop being a drunken idiot. 

Side story- I was BROKE when Sevendust came here that day. After I met Clint, Lajon stepped off the bus and walked up to us, saw my guitar and goes “You playing tonight?”, I was not. “Well, you’re coming, right?!”....”Actually, I’d love to but I’m broke as a joke right now.”

“Oh you’re coming. How many tickets do you need?”, then I said some sheepish, “I can’t take tickets from you, man.”, stuff and he refused, “No man, you are COMING. What’s your name? Nice to meet you Drew, you tell this man how many tickets you want and they’ll be waiting for you tonight.”

Showed up later that night with my girlfriend (now wife) and he wasn’t bullshitting, I had two tickets with my name on them waiting for me. I almost cried. Thankfully, they play that venue all the time (Culture Room, Ft Lauderdale) so the next time they came back around, when I was much more financially stable, I blew a couple hundred bucks at the merch booth to pay it back.


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## RevDrucifer (Sep 9, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> The band that wrote an entire progressive thrash album that was complex enough that they didn’t feel like ever trying to “top” it directly again?
> 
> Fuck yes.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I never got all the hate for A7X. I remember my former singer played their first album or two for me, it was before COE even came out. I dug it and a month or so later COE came out. I bought it and when I put the CD in I was like, “What the fuck? Am I thinking of a different band? There’s no screaming on this, but this is fucking GREAT!”

I really dug the self-titled one as well and thought it was cool as fuck that instead of releasing Bat Country 2.0 over and over, they said “We’re just going to produce this ourselves.”, and went down a whole different path. The production on that album is outstanding and my whole viewpoint on them changed due to their desire to keep changing shit up. 

There’s a few tunes I dig on Nightmare, but I think I was more stoked about Portnoy playing on it than anything. Hail To The King...I listened to that once and never again. Fair enough, they were learning how to write an album without the Rev and I’m assuming following The Black Album’s blueprint was a crutch they leaned on due to the absence of the Rev. 

Absolutely love The Stage. My first listen and I was like, “Dude, the only thing these guys care about is writing music they dig and that’s awesome.” For whatever amount of prog was on COE, they completely took it to a different level with The Stage. Brooks was the perfect addition to the band and I really can’t wait to see what the next one will sound like.


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## USMarine75 (Sep 9, 2020)

Edika said:


> I've heard of John Mayer but I think this is the first time I'm hearing one of his songs. And I thinking "why, why is this the first time I'm hearing this?".




^His tone is ridiculous. He has impeccable taste in gear.


^ his ability to hang in the pocket while soloing is phenomenal


^ for the Abasi fans


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## USMarine75 (Sep 9, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Bad rep?
> 
> Easy. Nuno.
> 
> ...



Huh?

How old are you? In the early 90's he was THE MAN who everyone was projecting would unseat EVH. He was all over every guitar magazine and MTV. Saying he's the guy from More than Words or Hole Hearted is revisionist history. It's like saying the Quuensryche guitarists were actually good despite getting a bad rep for Silent Lucidity.


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## Edika (Sep 9, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> ^His tone is ridiculous. He has impeccable taste in gear.
> 
> 
> ^ his ability to hang in the pocket while soloing is phenomenal
> ...




He seems to have managed to do what most would dream of doing, having great guitar work and musicianship incorporated in catchy tunes that are easy to listen and sing along. There is no distraction from the actual song. The singing specifically (and great voice by the way) is really pop oriented to my ears in an awesome way.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 9, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> It's like saying the Quuensryche guitarists were actually good despite getting a bad rep for Silent Lucidity.



Hooonestly I feel like there's some half truth to this? I feel like ever since Chris left, Whip doesn't get much love.

While we're speaking of it; Parker Lundgren in Queensryche gets a bad rap because of the era of QR AND the way he joined the band. It screamed nepotism because he was the husband of Geoff's daughter at the time, and he joined during Queensyche's lowest. But if anything the dude was dedicated as fuck to the band (moreso than previous CDG replacement) and he can fucking *rip*. IMO some of the best LaTorre-era songs were co-writted by Parker.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 9, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Huh?
> 
> How old are you? In the early 90's he was THE MAN who everyone was projecting would unseat EVH. He was all over every guitar magazine and MTV. Saying he's the guy from More than Words or Hole Hearted is revisionist history. It's like saying the Quuensryche guitarists were actually good despite getting a bad rep for Silent Lucidity.



Not to mention the chicks were on him hardcore. His pics STILL come up in pic threads involving hot dudes. I mean..the guy is quite a looker, and the guitar playing is an added bonus.

I'm gonna throw Wes Borland into the mix. He's so associated with Limp Bizkit that he's seen as a joke. I remember him joining Marilyn Manson and quitting soon after because Manson didn't wanna use anything he wrote because of who Wes is. The funny thing is Wes has since written some things that would have been perfect for Manson, but no one wants to hear music from "That weird dude in Limp Bizkit"


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## c7spheres (Sep 9, 2020)

- I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Billy Corgan. Maybe not techincal virtuouso but good song writer, good at getting tones and some great riffs over the years. 

- Side note; I honestly don't think techincal ability has much at all to do with being a good guitar player, or more precisely, I think technical ability is often not what people think it is and often goes unnoticed. It's the subtle things.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 9, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> - I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Billy Corgan. Maybe not techincal virtuouso but good song writer, good at getting tones and some great riffs over the years.
> 
> - Side note; I honestly don't think techincal ability has much at all to do with being a good guitar player, or more precisely, I think technical ability is often not what people think it is and often goes unnoticed. It's the subtle things.



I always figured Billy Corgan simply gets ignored as a guitarist rather than actively getting a bad wrap. I’d have said he’s exactly where he should be, in the line for ‘songwriters’

Oh and on the Nuno thing, I understood guitar was actually his SECOND instrument and he started out as the keyboard player in one of the bands that went on to be Extreme.


----------



## jaxadam (Sep 9, 2020)

Frank Black from The Pixies


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## c7spheres (Sep 9, 2020)

So thinking of Smashing Pumpkins led me on a Youtube rabbit hole and of course it always leads to Mazzy Star and the Fade Into You song so I can be all sad again.

- Anyways, it really sucked to find out that David Robak died in February of cancer at age of 61. I really liked his style, dynamics, vibe's and tones he gave off. It's a lot harder to write and play slow basic music than I think most people realize. It takes skills.

- R.I.P. David Robak, you certainly inspired me.





https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/david-roback-mazzy-star-dead-obituary-958246/


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## Wildebeest (Sep 9, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> - I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Billy Corgan. Maybe not techincal virtuouso but good song writer, good at getting tones and some great riffs over the years.
> 
> - Side note; I honestly don't think techincal ability has much at all to do with being a good guitar player, or more precisely, I think technical ability is often not what people think it is and often goes unnoticed. It's the subtle things.



He is a tone master. Live or in the studio, the sounds he can get out of his guitar are amazing. The biggest live guitars that I've ever heard live was during a performance of United States 5 years ago. Absolutely massive droning strings. His tones on his first solo album create some of the most unique layers of sound that can get easily mistaken for synthesizers. DIA in particular sounds great. But not only the tones, the guitarwork itself is incredibly inventive, playful and mysterious. It's a really overlooked song.


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## USMarine75 (Sep 10, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Hooonestly I feel like there's some half truth to this? I feel like ever since Chris left, Whip doesn't get much love.
> 
> While we're speaking of it; Parker Lundgren in Queensryche gets a bad rap because of the era of QR AND the way he joined the band. It screamed nepotism because he was the husband of Geoff's daughter at the time, and he joined during Queensyche's lowest. But if anything the dude was dedicated as fuck to the band (moreso than previous CDG replacement) and he can fucking *rip*. IMO some of the best LaTorre-era songs were co-writted by Parker.



Yeah I really liked the 2013 self-titled album with La Torre. I didn’t realize that other drama... I was caught up in the Geoff Tate with a knife drama lol.


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## The Mirror (Sep 10, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> In the early 90's he was THE MAN



Hard to say, but the 90s are 30 years in the past.

I am talking about today. And today if you mention the name Extreme to anyone not into metal / guitar music all they know is More Than Words (at best). Even Hole Hearted is gone from mainstream existence.

Just a few years ago I had a talk to someone about funky stuff and mentioned Extreme. They never heard of the band before and wanted to talk about Uptown Funk.

Remember, we are living in a time in which Guns & Roses, Nirvana and Metallica are brand names instead of band names and easily 50% of the people wearing their "band shirts" can't name a single record by them, even if they are wearing the Master of Puppets album cover on their front.


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## Seabeast2000 (Sep 10, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Hard to say, but the 90s are 30 years in the past.
> 
> I am talking about today. And today if you mention the name Extreme to anyone not into metal / guitar music all they know is More Than Words (at best). Even Hole Hearted is gone from mainstream existence.
> 
> Just a few years ago I had a talk to someone about funky stuff and mentioned Extreme. They never heard of the band before and wanted to talk about Uptown Funk.


Uptown funk seems like a knock off aerobics class song that Beachbody owns.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 10, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Yeah I really liked the 2013 self-titled album with La Torre. I didn’t realize that other drama... I was caught up in the Geoff Tate with a knife drama lol.



It's been constant drama since 1997 from what I can tell. It reached a peak in 2008 - 2009 after Dedicated to Chaos sucked hard and the Cabaret tour.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 10, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I always figured Billy Corgan simply gets ignored as a guitarist rather than actively getting a bad wrap. I’d have said he’s exactly where he should be, in the line for ‘songwriters’
> 
> Oh and on the Nuno thing, I understood guitar was actually his SECOND instrument and he started out as the keyboard player in one of the bands that went on to be Extreme.


Corgan is a pretty damn good guitarist, same with James Iha. Just listen to the Chimera, some of those runs are surprisingly tricky to play


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## ArtDecade (Sep 10, 2020)

The Mirror said:


> Hard to say, but the 90s are 30 years in the past.
> 
> I am talking about today. And today if you mention the name Extreme to anyone not into metal / guitar music all they know is More Than Words (at best). Even Hole Hearted is gone from mainstream existence.
> 
> ...



The only people listening to Extreme today are guitar players and old school fans. Extreme hasn't had consistent airplay in decades. Everyone that is an Extreme fan IN THE PRESENT knows Nuno is one of the best players in the world. In spite of airplay, he has had signature guitars in production for decades, signature amps in production on and off, etc etc. Nuno has never had a bad wrap for his musicianship. The man is well known and respected.


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## Riffer (Sep 10, 2020)

WES BORLAND!!!! The dude is probably in one of the most hated bands of all time and is overlooked because of it. He's one of my biggest influences and is so creative. I don't think anybody really sounds like him. He doesn't shred and doesn't really do any lead work at all. He just plays really cool riffs and plays stuff that compliments the whole song. I love it.


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## yan12 (Sep 10, 2020)

This thread seems like and underrated guitarist more than a bad rap type of deal.  Ritchie Blackmore has a bad rap and for good reason...but nobody thinks he is terrible.


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## PyramidSmasher (Sep 10, 2020)

Dayn said:


> Dragonforce in their early days. Apparently, they were pushed on tour quickly and had bugger-all time to rehearse.
> 
> When I saw them in 2015, they were almost flawless. Until the very end, where Sam flubbed a single note in the acoustic intro to Through the Fire and Flames. Otherwise they were phenomenal.


This story is more common than people believe by the way. Symphony X didnt tour on their first 3 albums and didnt even rehearse as a live band. Similarly, Angra had a gold record in Japan with their first album, but their label wouldnt let them play live there because they knew the band couldnt pull off the material and would look bad. Alot of these bands that come out of the gate with this whole progressive/technical thing end up playing catch up for a few years haha and I know thats not something alot of modern fans are comfortable hearing


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## Riffer (Sep 10, 2020)

yan12 said:


> This thread seems like and underrated guitarist more than a bad rap type of deal. Ritchie Blackmore has a bad rap and for good reason...but nobody thinks he is terrible.



True true. I think most guitar players understand if another player is good even though they get a "bad wrap" regardless of if it's a bad wrap for their personality or their actual playing. Zakk Wylde is a good example of a bad wrap as far as playing goes. He always gets dogged for doing the pentatonic stuff but most of the guys who give him a bad wrap can't play at his level and most normal guitar players will see that what he does is actually impressive and he IS good. 

As for a bad wrap personally but good guitar player, there are tons! One that comes to mind is Michael Keene from The Faceless. He doesn't have a good reputation but is a hell of a guitar player. Another could be Yngwie. He comes off as egotistical sometimes but he's a virtuoso.


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## mikernaut (Sep 10, 2020)

Not a bad wrap or really too under appreciated, but I always preferred Chris Poland over Marty Friedman. I guess initially Chris didn't have as many albums with Megadeth and showed his chops more so later.

Also love me some Frank Aresti and Jim Matheos from Fates Warning, who kinda are under the radar a bit.


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## USMarine75 (Sep 10, 2020)

All the guitarists that play in bands like Sleeping with Sirens, Pierce the Veil, Falling in Reverse, Motionless in White, Ice Nine Kills, etc. They may not be good at guitar olympics like Jason Richardson, but they make good listenable music (IMO, obv not for everyone).


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## Indigenous (Sep 10, 2020)

It's bad rap, not wrap. No tortillas here.


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## USMarine75 (Sep 11, 2020)

Indigenous said:


> It's bad rap, not wrap.





(And yes, that was annoying me too)


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 11, 2020)

Apparently (according to google) the term a bad ‘rap’ is from a ‘Record of Arrests and Prosecutions’.

You learn something new every day


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## Bloody_Inferno (Sep 11, 2020)

Tom Morello cops a fair amount of flak for being a noise based guitarist, especially from shred snobs. He can actually throw down, just doesn't really show it. Know Your Enemy is the closest he's done to traditional shred. 

Also some of the Nu Metal guys who downplayed their chops in the press during the early 00s. Wes Borland has been already mentioned (seeing him shred with X Japan was really cool), but guys like Mike Mushok and Dan Donegan who could play but didn't show it in their early albums.


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## yan12 (Sep 11, 2020)

For me, turning 50 soon, I grew up in the late 70's and 80's guitar wise. So Eddie was king for the most part.

But the guy that changed it all for me was Michael Schenker. Keep in mind 1972 was his coming out to the public, but he was well known in Europe before that. He is somewhat like Jeff Beck to me in that he keeps getting better. And I for one think part of his incredible hand strength and phrasing is the fact he never had mega distortion. In those days it was about playing a 50 or 100 watt Marshall cranked up and controlling it. That lead him down the road of clarity as there was nothing in the way. Today, with all this preamp distortion and insanely good amps or rigs like the Axefx, I don't think modern players understand how hard it is to play very loud and retain that clarity. Crank up a good tube amp to the max on a clean channel and see how clean the legato and picking really is. I like to record guitarists clean and dry and play it back to them with a click...it is normally quite revealing, especially to good guitarists. I myself am in this category...I need plenty of work.

Yes he was on a short scale Gibson, but I watched him play up close on an acoustic and it was unreal. When XYZ did the acoustic tour with MSG, their guitarist told me the same thing...his warmup on acoustic was sick night after night.

I am fortunate enough to own my own business which includes a studio, and I know quite a few folks in the industry. Among lots of these rock/metal guitar players, when I talk about Schenker, they all agree he is the real deal. He doesn't have a bad rap per se, but plenty of issues nonetheless.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 11, 2020)

Did anyone say abbath


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 11, 2020)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Tom Morello cops a fair amount of flak for being a noise based guitarist, especially from shred snobs. He can actually throw down, just doesn't really show it. Know Your Enemy is the closest he's done to traditional shred.
> 
> Also some of the Nu Metal guys who downplayed their chops in the press during the early 00s. Wes Borland has been already mentioned (seeing him shred with X Japan was really cool), but guys like Mike Mushok and Dan Donegan who could play but didn't show it in their early albums.



No Brad Delson?


Mushok deserves some respect for sure. I imagine a lot of those bands were told to hold back by producers, due to solos being seen as persona non grata due to nu metal and post grunge being the in thing.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Sep 12, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No Brad Delson?
> 
> 
> Mushok deserves some respect for sure. I imagine a lot of those bands were told to hold back by producers, due to solos being seen as persona non grata due to nu metal and post grunge being the in thing.



Slipknot's first 2 albums were the big examples where the guitarists were barred from playing solos. Most if not all the guys were doing so from a production and a songwriting perspective, it was just that point in time where solos really did become passe in metal. 

I'd like to think Brad Delson got better.  I used to resent the guy for publicly denouncing them then when he started soloing in Fade, it was awful. That said, songs like A Line In The Sand has a solo that suits both him and the song.


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## USMarine75 (Sep 12, 2020)

Someone should just rename this thread "*Favourite not popular guitarist?"*


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## Triple-J (Sep 12, 2020)

After reading through this thread I think it's safe to say that any player who is tagged as part of a movement (hair metal, grunge, nu-metal, etc) qualifies for this because the moment these movements surface a stereotypical idea of it appears and people base their opinion on that which leads to good players/bands getting a bad rap.

Guitar magazines play a major part in perpetuating these myths of the bad rap for example they whine about grunge being anti solo but all those bands played solos they just did it in a manner that was more in line with 70's hard rock but on the flipside these same magazines complain that hair metal was full of overplayed classical shred which isn't true either as the influence of Led Zeppelin & Aerosmith loomed large over that era.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Sep 12, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Someone should just rename this thread "*Favourite not popular guitarist?"*


i mentioned mab in the op...he is not even on my list. neither do i care for some of the others that were posted, but i have respect for their abilities. 

for me, that was the point of this thread...


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## USMarine75 (Sep 12, 2020)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> i mentioned mab in the op...he is not even on my list. neither do i care for some of the others that were posted, but i have respect for their abilities.
> 
> for me, that was the point of this thread...



Yeah, that works... guys like MAB or Rusty Cooley get bad raps as being mindless shred all about speed.

Unfortunately, most people are just posting unpopular (to them) guitarists instead lol.

Like, if this was a vocalist thread the answer is Tyler Carter... or R Kelly... or MJ. Not Codany Holiday.


----------



## Sermo Lupi (Sep 12, 2020)

Late to this thread. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mark Tremonti yet. 

Tremonti has had great commercial success with Creed and Alter Bridge, including a Grammy win and two further nominations for his time in Creed. He's also had a successful endorsement deal with PRS that's made him even more visible in the guitar-playing community. Looking at his wikipedia page, I was surprised to see he was named 'Guitarist of the Year' for three consecutive years in Guitar World magazine, plus 'Guitarist of the Decade' in 2019. Total Guitar named him 4th greatest metal guitar player ever. In 2014 and 2015 he also won awards for his playing from Loudwire and Metal Hammer. 

I mention all that because no one has ever told me in person that Mark Tremonti was an influence of theirs, let alone their favorite player or someone they really respected for his playing or songwriting (especially in Creed). 

By contrast, I've seen Creed get shit on for being some of the worst of early 2000s music alongside Nickelback. I've seen Tremonti's playing called competent but not praiseworthy. I've seen Alter Bridge called 'surprisingly good', as if any band formed by 'that Creed guitarist' would be bad. I've noticed Metal/Rock fans are embarrassed to admit they like either band. The impression I get from all this is the opposite of Mark Tremonti's recognition as one of the best guitar players and songwriters in the industry by the musical press. 

It's crazy, right? I'm second guessing myself for even writing this.


----------



## Demiurge (Sep 12, 2020)

^Tremonti has been around for a long time, and it seemed to me that as a net whole he's had a good reputation as a player throughout. In the same boat as Wes Borland, the frontmen of their respective bands were very good at sucking-up all the ridicule available.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Sep 12, 2020)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Late to this thread. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mark Tremonti yet.
> 
> Tremonti has had great commercial success with Creed and Alter Bridge, including a Grammy win and two further nominations for his time in Creed. He's also had a successful endorsement deal with PRS that's made him even more visible in the guitar-playing community. Looking at his wikipedia page, I was surprised to see he was named 'Guitarist of the Year' for three consecutive years in Guitar World magazine, plus 'Guitarist of the Decade' in 2019. Total Guitar named him 4th greatest metal guitar player ever. In 2014 and 2015 he also won awards for his playing from Loudwire and Metal Hammer.
> 
> ...


yeah.. nobody is embarassed of liking Alter Bridge anymore afaik. Maybe when they first came out and the stigma of Creed was still on Tremonti, but he's been a pretty well respected guitarist for at least 10 years now. 
Personally I liked his playing in Creed and absolutely love the stuff he's done with Alter Bridge. He spent years woodshedding and it's very evident on the AB stuff. Some of his songs are legit haaaaard to play like Metalingus (lots of fast string skipping and legato runs).

The only reason he doesn't get mentioned around here much is because we usually fixate on the more extreme/technical players. I have definitely heard random guys at guitar center speak highly of Tremonti and his sig gear though.


You want to talk underrated, let's talk about Myles from Alter Bridge. Dude is a monster singer AND a very good guitarist. He just doesn't get enough credit for his playing .


----------



## couverdure (Sep 12, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> All the guitarists that play in bands like Sleeping with Sirens, Pierce the Veil, Falling in Reverse, Motionless in White, Ice Nine Kills, etc. They may not be good at guitar olympics like Jason Richardson, but they make good listenable music (IMO, obv not for everyone).


I listened to that kind of music a lot when I started learning to play the guitar, so they ended up influencing my playing tyle. There's a strong earworm factor about their songwriting and the guitar plays huge roles in them, even if they're not super technical.

FIR has some legit guitarists (Jacky Vincent namely, obviously), but JD from I9K isn't a sloucher either.


----------



## Science_Penguin (Sep 12, 2020)

Triple-J said:


> After reading through this thread I think it's safe to say that any player who is tagged as part of a movement (hair metal, grunge, nu-metal, etc) qualifies for this because the moment these movements surface a stereotypical idea of it appears and people base their opinion on that which leads to good players/bands getting a bad rap.
> 
> Guitar magazines play a major part in perpetuating these myths of the bad rap for example they whine about grunge being anti solo but all those bands played solos they just did it in a manner that was more in line with 70's hard rock but on the flipside these same magazines complain that hair metal was full of overplayed classical shred which isn't true either as the influence of Led Zeppelin & Aerosmith loomed large over that era.



In that case, I'm adding the three guys from Periphery. They're all damn good, but Djent gets about as much respect from purists as... well, those other three examples you mentioned.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 12, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah.. nobody is embarassed of liking Alter Bridge anymore afaik. Maybe when they first came out and the stigma of Creed was still on Tremonti, but he's been a pretty well respected guitarist for at least 10 years now.
> Personally I liked his playing in Creed and absolutely love the stuff he's done with Alter Bridge. He spent years woodshedding and it's very evident on the AB stuff. Some of his songs are legit haaaaard to play like Metalingus (lots of fast string skipping and legato runs).
> 
> The only reason he doesn't get mentioned around here much is because we usually fixate on the more extreme/technical players. I have definitely heard random guys at guitar center speak highly of Tremonti and his sig gear though.
> ...



For the longest time I thought all the solos on Isolation were played by Mark. But nah, the "main" solo is actually Myles. That and the 2nd half of the solo on Father Than the Sun. When the solo's harmonize, Myles takes over.



And the solo of Crows On a Wire.



Unfortunately I still see some stigma against Mark to be honest. A lot of the Guitarist of the Year thread posted here was a shit show, even though the majority of his work was probably done this (last? :lol) decade (3 solo albums and 4 Alter Bridge albums). In the 2000s it was only like... 1 Creed album and 2 Alter Bridge albums. And I still see idiots call Alter Bridge a "creed side project".


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 13, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Personally I liked his playing in Creed and absolutely love the stuff he's done with Alter Bridge. He spent years woodshedding and it's very evident on the AB stuff. Some of his songs are legit haaaaard to play like Metalingus (lots of fast string skipping and legato runs).


Edit: meant "Ties that bind" not Metalingus.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 13, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Edit: meant "Ties that bind" not Metalingus.



Metalingus is still pretty tricky.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Sep 16, 2020)

couverdure said:


> I listened to that kind of music a lot when I started learning to play the guitar, so they ended up influencing my playing tyle. There's a strong earworm factor about their songwriting and the guitar plays huge roles in them, even if they're not super technical.
> 
> FIR has some legit guitarists (Jacky Vincent namely, obviously), but JD from I9K isn't a sloucher either.





kinda diggin this...
was not aware of this band, but it looks like they have been around awhile and put out several albums. im gonna check them out, any suggestions guys?


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## Ordacleaphobia (Sep 16, 2020)

Not sure how well this one's gunna land but....I'm kinda surprised no one has mentioned Lucas Mann or Miles Baker yet. 
Guys got an endless amount of flak for their sound and production and had to constantly bat away folks claiming that they couldn't actually play their instruments. They've had a good sense of humor about it, but damn if that wouldn't wear on you after a while. 
I know for a fact both of those dudes can shred. I've seen it. I don't like their music, but they absolutely get a bad rap they don't deserve imo.


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## shadowlife (Sep 23, 2020)

Mick Mars and CC are always the first two that come to mind when this type of question is asked.

Mick has been working on a solo record for the past few years- the last time I checked, it was supposed to come out this summer, but no word yet. I'm interested in hearing what he comes up with outside the confines of Motley.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 23, 2020)

shadowlife said:


> Mick Mars and CC are always the first two that come to mind when this type of question is asked.
> 
> Mick has been working on a solo record for the past few years- the last time I checked, it was supposed to come out this summer, but no word yet. I'm interested in hearing what he comes up with outside the confines of Motley.



Mick's like the only dude from Motley I see consistent praise for TBH. CC for sure, though.


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## shadowlife (Sep 23, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Mick's like the only dude from Motley I see consistent praise for TBH. CC for sure, though.



I think you're right. It was back in the 80s when everyone was expected to play like Vai, Satch, Lynch, Yngwie, etc that Mick's playing was looked down on by a lot of people. Over time though, people realized Mick's playing was great, just not overly flashy.


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## bostjan (Sep 23, 2020)

Guys, everyone mentioned in this thread is pretty highly regarded as guitarists.

For example, I don't know a single person who says "Michael Angelo Batio sucks at playing guitar." I know a lot of people who say "MAB is awesome at playing guitar, but kind of sucks overall as a musician," but that's a totally different concept.

Likewise, find me one person who seriously goes around professing that Kenny G sucks at saxophone.

The closest examples might be Kirk Hammet and Zakk Wylde, but, IDK, have you guys ever read a guitar magazine or a mainstream guitar blog site? Those two guys are two of the highest rated guitarists of all time, if not THE two highest ranked guitarists. So, even though some folks here at this specific site shit on them, they are by no means generally considered to be bad.

I think we are just on a different sort of level of exposure here, where the casual SS.O user is occasionally posting 550 bpm 16th-note two-handed sweeps over crazy chord changes (I know I'm being hyperbolic, but have you guys ever listened to each other's audio clips?!) - I think the level of what is considered impressive technical skill here is simply incongruent with what the general public considers good guitar chops.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 23, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Guys, everyone mentioned in this thread is pretty highly regarded as guitarists.
> 
> For example, I don't know a single person who says "Michael Angelo Batio sucks at playing guitar." I know a lot of people who say "MAB is awesome at playing guitar, but kind of sucks overall as a musician," but that's a totally different concept.
> 
> ...



I didn't take the title to mean ONLY "people accused of being bad players that are actually good." I took it to means guitarists that had bad reputations due to the bands they were in or just general shit-talkery. Not because they were ACTUALLY bad players.


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 24, 2020)

^yep. It’s not that a player is bad it’s they or their band have a bad reputation so people pass them off. Prime examples in this thread being Sam Totman(Dragonforce) and Synster Gates(Avenged Sevenfold). Two incredible players/musicians with a bad rep because of their band, image, stage show, rock star act etc


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 24, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^yep. It’s not that a player is bad it’s they or their band have a bad reputation so people pass them off. Prime examples in this thread being Sam Totman(Dragonforce) and Synster Gates(Avenged Sevenfold). Two incredible players/musicians with a bad rep because of their band, image, stage show, rock star act etc



Yep exactly. Although there's some guitarists that can for sure transcend their bad reputation. Yngwie for example.


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## bostjan (Sep 24, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I didn't take the title to mean ONLY "people accused of being bad players that are actually good." I took it to means guitarists that had bad reputations due to the bands they were in or just general shit-talkery. Not because they were ACTUALLY bad players.


So players who can rip, but are assholes, or have reputation as such?

IME, that's maybe 10-20% of the top-rated players out there. There are also a lot of famous, or semi-famous musicians who are super nice but have a few bad days.

For example, people used to say that John Petrucci was a total jerk. I've met him six or seven times, and never seen anything firsthand to lead me to believe he was at all douchey. Maybe the people who started those stories just ran into him on an off day, or maybe I just have great luck. 
I ran into Victor Wooten at a concert once and approached him to let him know I was a fan, and he frankly told me to get lost. I don't think he's an asshole or anything; I'm sure it was just not the best time. 
Then you have people like Axl Rose who leave no mystery about it - he's just a nasty person.

Then there's the time I was going into GC in Detroit years and years ago, and I held the door open for a dude who looked like Uli Jon Roth, and I said "Whoah, you're Uli Jon Roth!" and he said "Whoah, you're a guy holding the door open!" Not sure if he was being clever or what, but either way, it made my day. If I had been in a bad mood that day, I might have gone around town saying that Uli Jon Roth is a prima donna or whatever, and that's sort of how these sorts of "reputations" sometimes get started.

I don't think I've met anyone mentioned in this thread myself.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Sep 27, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Guys, everyone mentioned in this thread is pretty highly regarded as guitarists.
> 
> For example, I don't know a single person who says "Michael Angelo Batio sucks at playing guitar." I know a lot of people who say "MAB is awesome at playing guitar, but kind of sucks overall as a musician," but that's a totally different concept...
> ...The closest examples might be Kirk Hammet and Zakk Wylde, but, IDK, have you guys ever read a guitar magazine or a mainstream guitar blog site? Those two guys are two of the highest rated .



all 3 guys are great examples of what I'm talking about and why i started the thread to discuss.


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## Flappydoodle (Sep 27, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^yep. It’s not that a player is bad it’s they or their band have a bad reputation so people pass them off. Prime examples in this thread being Sam Totman(Dragonforce) and Synster Gates(Avenged Sevenfold). Two incredible players/musicians with a bad rep because of their band, image, stage show, rock star act etc



And let’s also be clear, they have a bad rep among forum nerds, geeks and men. 

Syn is in one of the largest metal bands of the last two decades. He’s made tens of millions of dollars, and I’m sure the literal queue of girls waiting to fuck him don’t care about nerds hating on him.


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## Herrick (Sep 29, 2020)

Vito Bratta of White Lion. I'm not a big expert on him but I think he was categorized as a EVH clone which I think is unfair. EVH was a big influence but I don't think Bratta sounds like him at all...at least the solos don't. Maybe there are more similarities in the music but I wouldn't know as I dislike White Lion and that scene. I just like how Bratta solos.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 29, 2020)

Vivian Campbell. For a lot of people, he's only seen as a replacement for Steve Clark and joined them weeeellll passed their prime. But when he was in Dio, the dude fucking riiiiiiipped.

To a lesser extent, Matthias Jabs. Everyone talks about Uli Jon Roth or Michael Schenker, but no one really talks about Jabs. Personally I fucking love him, and he has a recognizable, memorable style.


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## Louis Cypher (Sep 30, 2020)

Herrick said:


> Vito Bratta of White Lion. I'm not a big expert on him but I think he was categorized as a EVH clone which I think is unfair. EVH was a big influence but I don't think Bratta sounds like him at all...at least the solos don't. Maybe there are more similarities in the music but I wouldn't know as I dislike White Lion and that scene. I just like how Bratta solos.



Def agree, Vito, like Mars and CC, define this thread imo. He is a lot more than a EVH clone, incredible guitarist but being in a band like White Lion he got lumped in with alot of the dross especially retropectively. Tho at the time in the late 80's he was a regular in the big guitar mags. I am a big fan of White Lion, particularly for Vito's playing. If anyone is unsure of who he is just check out White Lions cover of Radar Love...... unbelievable



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Vivian Campbell. For a lot of people, he's only seen as a replacement for Steve Clark and joined them weeeellll passed their prime. But when he was in Dio, the dude fucking riiiiiiipped.
> 
> To a lesser extent, Matthias Jabs. Everyone talks about Uli Jon Roth or Michael Schenker, but no one really talks about Jabs. Personally I fucking love him, and he has a recognizable, memorable style.


Agree with you on Matthais Jabs, he is a great player and I'm not sure what else the guy can do get out from under Schenker and Roth's shadows.
On Viv Campbell, I love his playing Dio, Shadow King, Riverdogs even his blues covers album was great. Think most peoples issue with him is his personality and attitude rather than his playing


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## Bloody_Inferno (Sep 30, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> To a lesser extent, Matthias Jabs. Everyone talks about Uli Jon Roth or Michael Schenker, but no one really talks about Jabs. Personally I fucking love him, and he has a recognizable, memorable style.





Louis Cypher said:


> Agree with you on Matthais Jabs, he is a great player and I'm not sure what else the guy can do get out from under Schenker and Roth's shadows.



I'd actually rate Matthias over M.Schenker when it comes strictly to the Scorpions. Michael only played on 2 albums; he didn't really find his voice until he left after Lonesome Crow and his solos to Lovedrive (as great as they were) often gets lost since he and his brother are incredibly similar in style. Michael's best were always outside the Scorpions (well up until Built to Destroy). They should have let Matthias cut loose in Lovedrive since it payed off from Blackout onwards. 

I guess what gives Michael the pedigree is those landmark albums with UFO and MSG (Strangers In The Night is still an amazing live album), and his playing style and sound weren't like a lot of blues based guys in the 70s. He had one of the best sounds ever to come from a Gibson plugged in to a Marshall. 

Matthias has earned his place though. All the mega popular albums have some fantastic playing and the lineup was unstoppable live (World Wide Live, the human pyramids etc). 

I still prefer Roth to both of them, though I guess I'm drawn to him the most. He was the most unique and musically ambitious of the lot and was pushing Scorpions to uncharted territories like their longer jam moments. Though I appreciate him sharing frontman duties, I much prefer him being the lead guitarist when Klaus Meine is standing right freaking there. 

That's my Scorpions fanboy rambling for the day.


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## mastapimp (Sep 30, 2020)

Anyone mention DJ Ashba yet? The guy is a decent guitarist, but caught a ton of flak when he was in Guns 'N Roses as mimicking Slash in appearance, gear, mannerisms, you name it. He also had some tacky signature gear by Schecter a few years back and wore a ton of makeup. Plus, I believe he got a few of his cop buddies demoted or fired for using the helicopter to stage an elaborate marriage proposal in Vegas.


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## shadowlife (Sep 30, 2020)

I've never heard anyone doubt Vivian Campbell's skill, most of the criticsm I've seen has been that he's just doing DL for the paycheck and not utilizing his abilities to their potential.
I thought the Last In Line project he did in 2016 had some great playing (and reminded me that Vinny Appice is one of my favorite drummers):



I don't ever recall Matthias getting a bad wrap either, but it did seem like he never got the recognition he deserved.


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## Louis Cypher (Sep 30, 2020)

mastapimp said:


> Anyone mention DJ Ashba yet? The guy is a decent guitarist, but caught a ton of flak when he was in Guns 'N Roses as mimicking Slash in appearance, gear, mannerisms, you name it. He also had some tacky signature gear by Schecter a few years back and wore a ton of makeup. Plus, I believe he got a few of his cop buddies demoted or fired for using the helicopter to stage an elaborate marriage proposal in Vegas.



I really love his playing on the first SIXX:AM album and I really like the Beautiful Creatures debut too. I think like Viv Campbell alot of the sh1t he gets is not related to his playing but to him as a person. He was on an episode of Tanked one time and came across as a complete fcukwit


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## M3CHK1LLA (Oct 3, 2021)

wow...kinda forgot about this thread because of the end of the world/covid/riots/elections/life in general...

it was great to re-read


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 4, 2021)

shadowlife said:


> I've never heard anyone doubt Vivian Campbell's skill, most of the criticsm I've seen has been that he's just doing DL for the paycheck and not utilizing his abilities to their potential.
> I thought the Last In Line project he did in 2016 had some great playing (and reminded me that Vinny Appice is one of my favorite drummers):
> 
> 
> ...




I brought up Viv and Matthias earlier in the thread because I guess it's less they got shit on, but overshadowed. Viv had to live up to Steve Clark, and while Viv is arguably the better player, he joined the band when they went into the post-'80s decline. 

Matthias also had to live up to Uli Jon Roth and Mike Schenker. Sure Matthias was in the band when they reached stardom, but I still don't see him talked about on the same level as Roth or Schenker.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 5, 2021)

Somehow Tremonti started out in Creed, a successful enough pop rock band but not a place you'd expect to find a guitar hero.


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## wheresthefbomb (Oct 5, 2021)

Did someone already say Wes Borland? I'm not sure he actually gets a bad rap but it's gotta be weird trying to be taken seriously when everyone knows you as the guitarist from limp bizkit. Not only is he actually good, his makeup is always on-point/actually terrifying. 



bostjan said:


> Then there's the time I was going into GC in Detroit years and years ago, and I held the door open for a dude who looked like Uli Jon Roth, and I said "Whoah, you're Uli Jon Roth!" and he said "Whoah, you're a guy holding the door open!" Not sure if he was being clever or what, but either way, it made my day.



I went to Psycho CA a few years ago, and happened to be staying in the same hotel a lot of the musicians were. I ended up riding an elevator with Matt Pike from Sleep (no, he wasn't wearing a shirt), and I was like "hey, you're Matt Pike!" like he didn't know who the fuck he was hahaha. He was chill about my faboying, kind of laughed awkwardly and smiled at me. I asked for a high five and we parted ways. It was very wholesome.


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## mmr007 (Oct 5, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I brought up Viv and Matthias earlier in the thread because I guess it's less they got shit on, but overshadowed. Viv had to live up to Steve Clark, and while Viv is arguably the better player, he joined the band when they went into the post-'80s decline.
> 
> Matthias also had to live up to Uli Jon Roth and Mike Schenker. Sure Matthias was in the band when they reached stardom, but I still don't see him talked about on the same level as Roth or Schenker.


There are few things I appreciate more than someone who appreciates Mattias Jabs as much as I do


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## Chiba666 (Oct 6, 2021)

I wouldn’t say he gets a bad rap, mote like ignored but Andreas from Sepultura.

Dude is a monster


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## Chris Bowsman (Oct 6, 2021)

The Kirk/Metallica forum-hatred has always blown my mind. Kirk wrote the "Enter Sandman" riff for god's sake... Love it or hate it, I'm betting exactly none of the people shitting on him have done anything as impactful as that. 

I'll even stick up for Lars based on the same song. I can't remember if it was in A Year And A Half In The Life Of Metallica or an interview, but Kirk brought in the riff, and Lars tells him to play the first part three times, then put the tag on it. Being responsible for the arranging on probably all the material from that catalog makes up for a lot of not being Dave Lombardo.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Oct 6, 2021)

Chris Bowsman said:


> The Kirk/Metallica forum-hatred has always blown my mind. Kirk wrote the "Enter Sandman" riff for god's sake... Love it or hate it, I'm betting exactly none of the people shitting on him have done anything as impactful as that.
> 
> I'll even stick up for Lars based on the same song. I can't remember if it was in A Year And A Half In The Life Of Metallica or an interview, but Kirk brought in the riff, and Lars tells him to play the first part three times, then put the tag on it. Being responsible for the arranging on probably all the material from that catalog makes up for a lot of not being Dave Lombardo.



If you hear any of the current live performances, like from the past week, they sound the best they have in like 25 years, no lie. It's not peak Metallica but Kirk is seriously kicking ass, the solos aren't clean but they sound fucking GOOD, they slowed down a little and James isn't screaming the whole time but they're tight, really heavy, and everyone is holding their weight really well. 

I listened to the most recent few performances on YouTube and their Ride the Lightning about a week ago was the best it sounded in years. Kirk didn't nail the solo but he did play with the most passion and intensity he's had since the 90s. I was impressed, he's one of the few guitarists I've seen that have played like that. I think the time off helped and they seemed to have practiced a lot too.


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## mmr007 (Oct 6, 2021)

ok, I'm gonna throw a name out there and I'm probably the last person anyone expected to say this guy's name....Jeff Hanneman. He gets shit for being a nazi sympathizer (he's not but thats a story for another time) but there is no doubt the nazi imagery on his guitars has hurt his cred a lot. And unfortunately Slayer in general has made themselves pathetic memes because of a rabid fanbase, horrible solos and riffs that are always described as 1-0-0-0-0-1-00-11-0000-1111 in guitar tab. Slayer has a lot...a lot of shitty unlistenable songs. They are called Kerry King songs but I think the slayer guitarists just get lumped together and Jeff gets painted with the same uninspired riff brush that Kerry does but consider....

Angel of Death
Postmortem
Raining Blood
South of Heaven 
Ghosts of War
Mandatory Suicide
War Ensemble
Seasons in the Abyss
Dead Skin Mask
Black Magic
Hell Awaits
Die by the Sword
Disciple
Bloodline
World Painted Blood
Jihad
Stain of Mind

This is just a partial list....but that is basically the set list for almost every Slayer show. They are Jeff's songs. Even Tony Iommi doesn't have Jeff's resume for iconic heavy metal riffage. And some of Jeff's old solos were actually VERY good. I believe his love of punk also helped pull Slayer (and thrash in general) into a more crossover type music so he helped create a genre. It's time to separate the wheat from the chaff and recognize that 50% of Slayer's guitarists were fucking amazing underrated riff machines....the other 50% were untalented hacks who wore their own merch and wrote songs that were indistinguishable from each other. The latter is Kerry King. The former is..

Riff King






I'm not biased....seriously


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## chipchappy (Oct 6, 2021)

me!

I'm a solid guitar player. Why don't more people appreciate me??

I thought for sure I'd have an endorsement by now. 

Hmph


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## Bdtunn (Oct 6, 2021)

TheBolivianSniper said:


> If you hear any of the current live performances, like from the past week, they sound the best they have in like 25 years, no lie. It's not peak Metallica but Kirk is seriously kicking ass, the solos aren't clean but they sound fucking GOOD, they slowed down a little and James isn't screaming the whole time but they're tight, really heavy, and everyone is holding their weight really well.
> 
> I listened to the most recent few performances on YouTube and their Ride the Lightning about a week ago was the best it sounded in years. Kirk didn't nail the solo but he did play with the most passion and intensity he's had since the 90s. I was impressed, he's one of the few guitarists I've seen that have played like that. I think the time off helped and they seemed to have practiced a lot too.



i thought the same thing when I watched some of the new footage. They all sounded great and I was really impressed with Hammett’s new fire he found for the solos


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## Chris Bowsman (Oct 6, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> ...and recognize that 50% of Slayer's guitarists were fucking amazing underrated riff machines....



Let's throw Gary Holt in there and make it 66.6% of Slayer's guitarists


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## mmr007 (Oct 6, 2021)

Chris Bowsman said:


> Let's throw Gary Holt in there and make it 66.6% of Slayer's guitarists


Oh I agree. I fucking love Gary Holt and was so glad that if anyone filled in it was him. But since he wasn't allowed to contribute to writing, their last album was....well the only Slayer album I never bought and so I never viewed Holt as a true member....just an Exodus hired gun used to try and make the band relevant.


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## Chris Bowsman (Oct 6, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> Oh I agree. I fucking love Gary Holt and was so glad that if anyone filled in it was him. But since he wasn't allowed to contribute to writing, their last album was....well the only Slayer album I never bought and so I never viewed Holt as a true member....just an Exodus hired gun used to try and make the band relevant.



The last show I saw pre-Covid was Slayer. I don't disagree with your assessment of their songs at all, but half of the OG Slayer plus Gary and Paul Bostaph playing those songs was plenty awesome. I liked the last album a lot, but agree, was super disappointed they didn't utilize Gary, especially now that there are a couple new Exodus songs out. 

Totally off topic, but I'd love to see a new group built around Gary and Paul. Throw in a death metal vocalist, and really present bass player like Alex Webster or Ryan Martinie, make it a prog thrash band.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Oct 7, 2021)

really got to appreciate gary
holts playing when i saw him live a few years back when he was with exodus and touring with testement...both bands put on an incredible show.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 8, 2021)

He doesn't get a bad wrap per se, but no one talks about him.

Doyle Wolfgang Von Frankenstein. He's a great guitar player, self taught from being thrown into the Misfits and not knowing how to play guitar. To me he's the quintessential "regular man's" guitarist. He built himself from the ground up and ended up being in one of music's biggest bands. Not only that but the dude makes his own guitars himself. His guitars are unique (whether you like them or not) and iconic. He's not a super gear nerd and prefers to keep shit super simple and he's as salt-of-the-earth as it gets while still being somewhat flashy in his own way (I mean..just look at him). Beyond all that he seems like a genuinely good guy. I'm not much of a Misfits fan but I respect the shit outta that dude.


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## StevenC (Oct 9, 2021)

Chris Bowsman said:


> The Kirk/Metallica forum-hatred has always blown my mind. Kirk wrote the "Enter Sandman" riff for god's sake... Love it or hate it, I'm betting exactly none of the people shitting on him have done anything as impactful as that.
> 
> I'll even stick up for Lars based on the same song. I can't remember if it was in A Year And A Half In The Life Of Metallica or an interview, but Kirk brought in the riff, and Lars tells him to play the first part three times, then put the tag on it. Being responsible for the arranging on probably all the material from that catalog makes up for a lot of not being Dave Lombardo.


That's like saying Phil Collins doesn't deserve hate because he sang Turn It On Again.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 9, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> He doesn't get a bad wrap per se, but no one talks about him.
> 
> Doyle Wolfgang Von Frankenstein. He's a great guitar player, self taught from being thrown into the Misfits and not knowing how to play guitar. To me he's the quintessential "regular man's" guitarist. He built himself from the ground up and ended up being in one of music's biggest bands. Not only that but the dude makes his own guitars himself. His guitars are unique (whether you like them or not) and iconic. He's not a super gear nerd and prefers to keep shit super simple and he's as salt-of-the-earth as it gets while still being somewhat flashy in his own way (I mean..just look at him). Beyond all that he seems like a genuinely good guy. I'm not much of a Misfits fan but I respect the shit outta that dude.



Does it count when they themselves admit they suck at guitar?


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## STRHelvete (Oct 9, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Does it count when they themselves admit they suck at guitar?


That's part of what makes him good and relatable. He's a good guitar player but he's certainly not trying to impress anyone and he's the first to admit he's no virtuoso. He's as relatable as it gets in terms of iconic guitarists


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## Legion (Oct 10, 2021)

I'd say Matt Heavy of Trivium. Fucking baller guitarist, great guy, but like Trivium gets some hate from the "tr00 kvlt metal" crowd because of their metalcore infused first album. That and Matt said something like his fishmans give him lower latency or something cringe worthy like that. 

Sick shredder and songwriter though, that is undeniable.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 10, 2021)

Legion said:


> I'd say Matt Heavy of Trivium. Fucking baller guitarist, great guy, but like Trivium gets some hate from the "tr00 kvlt metal" crowd because of their metalcore infused first album. That and Matt said something like his fishmans give him lower latency or something cringe worthy like that.
> 
> Sick shredder and songwriter though, that is undeniable.



I'm a fan of Matt and I still don't get the Fishman comment. 

I bet a lot of Trivium haters never even listened to a single Trivium song. Like Crusade and Shogun has so much '80s influence that I'm dead fucking positive they just go by what marks on the internet say and never listen to them.


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## BenjaminW (Oct 10, 2021)

I feel like you could make an argument that Steve Lukather and Neal Schon can get a bad wrap for being in bands that people perceive as corporate/soft rock or whatever you wanna call it.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 11, 2021)

Daisy Berkowitz.
He never gets brought up but he had a unique style and was a really good songwriter. His work on Portrait Of An American Family and Smells Like Children is the best guitar work on any Marilyn Manson album. He was definitely the best guitarist that band ever had and Manson wouldn't have gotten to be as big if it wasn't for Daisy.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Oct 11, 2021)

BenjaminW said:


> I feel like you could make an argument that Steve Lukather and Neal Schon can get a bad wrap for being in bands that people perceive as corporate/soft rock or whatever you wanna call it.



Neal Schon is an awesome player. Great sense of melody, phrasing and tone, and has maintained that throughout his career. 

Though the bad wrap he gets for not understanding the Streisand Effect and trying to kick out Carlos Santana out of Santana is fully justified.


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 11, 2021)

Personally for me i think some of the guitarists being mentioned in the last few pages don't really fit the thread. More of them being mentioned don't get enough recognition for sure like Daisy Berkowitz. Sure Schon & Lukather's bands are seen as soft/yatcht rock thats constantly the butt of jokes and butchered by Glee types, but nearly every guitar player usually has nothing but repsect for them when they get brought up, especially Lukather.

Matt Heafy though is someone like CC or Mick Mars etc that defines this thread for me, him and Corey get so much sh1t and hate especially from all the cool kids who love Avenged Sevenfold. Both of them are incredible guitarists and Matt is a hell of a song writer considering he was what 17 when that first Trivium album came out? Watching him work as the team captain on the Road Runner 25th Anniversary album documentary shows how good he is. To be choosen at 19 yrs old to be one of the 4 main songwriters, with the likes of Robb Flynn and Joey Jordison on such a significant album for a label as big in metal as Road Runner should say enough about how good he is and how he really doesn't deserve the sh1t he gets just for him and his band not being Avenged Sevenfold


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## Hoss632 (Oct 11, 2021)

I may be wrong only because I've not really seen a ton of discussion on either band in terms of their playing. But I feel like both guitarists for Bullet for My Valentine and August Burns Red are under rated. Olof Morck if Amaranthe is another very talented guitarist and writer as well that I don't see get a lot of attention.


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 11, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> I may be wrong only because I've not really seen a ton of discussion on either band in terms of their playing. But I feel like both guitarists for Bullet for My Valentine and August Burns Red are under rated. Olof Morck if Amaranthe is another very talented guitarist and writer as well that I don't see get a lot of attention.



I am really sorry I'm not picking on you or your post, as I do agree 100% that Matt & Michael from BfmV def dont get enough attention same for the band too as they are a hell of band live (never heard of Auust Burns Red I'm afriad so I cant comment on them), but you're post proves my point above that this thread has mostly become about guitarist who dont get enough recognition or should be better known coz they are good rather than about guitarists who due to the band their in or the music they play or write or whatever they are reguarly sh1t on by guitar/music mags, guitar forums, polls of the worst guitarists, other famous guitarists or bands etc etc.
Again this is my opinion but two examples of the difference for me:

Criss Oliva - Great Guitarist who didnt get the attention he & Savatage deserved and has always been underrated/forgotten
CC DeVille - Great Guitarist & Songwriter who due to the pop metal/glam band he was in, the huge success he had in sales and tours and his image (epsecially Look What the Cat Dragged In days) is nearly always rated worst guitarist in polls, blamed for 80's excess, glad he and his band were killed by Grunge blah blah.

I'd also add that players like Hammett and Zakk or even Dime dont qualify either. Sure of course people take the peas out of them, the wahs and the pinch harmonics and the paradies of themselves they are or were but no one really has anything bad to say abotu them as players.

Sorry @Hoss632 for picking on your post


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## Hoss632 (Oct 11, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> I am really sorry I'm not picking on you or your post, as I do agree 100% that Matt & Michael from BfmV def dont get enough attention same for the band too as they are a hell of band live (never heard of Auust Burns Red I'm afriad so I cant comment on them), but you're post proves my point above that this thread has mostly become about guitarist who dont get enough recognition or should be better known coz they are good rather than about guitarists who due to the band their in or the music they play or write or whatever they are reguarly sh1t on by guitar/music mags, guitar forums, polls of the worst guitarists, other famous guitarists or bands etc etc.
> Again this is my opinion but two examples of the difference for me:
> 
> Criss Oliva - Great Guitarist who didnt get the attention he & Savatage deserved and has always been underrated/forgotten
> ...


Would you throw Andy James into this now since he's in ffdp?


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 11, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> Would you throw Andy James into this now since he's in ffdp?


Prob a bit early doors for him, not sure why everyone hates FFDP if I'm honest I quite like some of their stuff, though some of their personal views are way too right wing for me.
But then you know he is so well repsected anyway from his Lick Library lessons and youtube channel, certainly dont think he counts now. I'd say his joining FFDP is very much like Richie Kotzen when he joined Poison, they will both be considered to be "Too Good" for the band they have joined and so will be excused from any hate


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## chinnybob (Oct 11, 2021)

Billie Joe Armstrong.

Fight me.


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## The Mirror (Oct 11, 2021)

chinnybob said:


> Billie Joe Armstrong.
> 
> Fight me.



He is the best there is at what he does, but what he does isn't really flashy or technical (pop punk, duh).


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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 11, 2021)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Neal Schon is an awesome player. Great sense of melody, phrasing and tone, and has maintained that throughout his career.
> 
> Though the bad wrap he gets for not understanding the Streisand Effect and trying to kick out Carlos Santana out of Santana is fully justified.


Now that......is funny. ""Carlos baby we REALLY need more than those 3 notes".


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## NoodleFace (Oct 11, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> Prob a bit early doors for him, not sure why everyone hates FFDP if I'm honest I quite like some of their stuff, though some of their personal views are way too right wing for me.
> But then you know he is so well repsected anyway from his Lick Library lessons and youtube channel, certainly dont think he counts now. I'd say his joining FFDP is very much like Richie Kotzen when he joined Poison, they will both be considered to be "Too Good" for the band they have joined and so will be excused from any hate


I think we can also say Jeff Loomis joining Arch Enemy


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 11, 2021)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Neal Schon is an awesome player. Great sense of melody, phrasing and tone, and has maintained that throughout his career.
> 
> Though the bad wrap he gets for not understanding the Streisand Effect and trying to kick out Carlos Santana out of Santana is fully justified.



I've heard Neal has... A bit of a reputation. Wasn't there a rumor in the '90s that he got an assortment of Tom Andersons and didn't pay for them?


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## bostjan (Oct 11, 2021)

Does Yngwie get a bad wrap? I know his reputation as a human being, in general, is certainly not the greatest. But, as a guitarist, for me, personally, he's one of the first three guitarists that got me into the high-discipline stuff when I was younger. From everything I've read, though, I'd be nervous to meet him, since he allegedly beats women and, also, he don't like donits.


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## BenjaminW (Oct 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Does Yngwie get a bad wrap? I know his reputation as a human being, in general, is certainly not the greatest. But, as a guitarist, for me, personally, he's one of the first three guitarists that got me into the high-discipline stuff when I was younger. From everything I've read, though, I'd be nervous to meet him, since he allegedly beats women and, also, he don't like donits.


I think Yngwie is one of those guys you either love or hate, particularly with his playing.

People such as you and I find him super influential whereas others think he’s just wanking the fretboard.


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## bostjan (Oct 11, 2021)

BenjaminW said:


> I think Yngwie is one of those guys you either love or hate, particularly with his playing.
> 
> People such as you and I find him super influential whereas others think he’s just wanking the fretboard.



In fairness, if it's generally acceptable to rag on Zakk for spamming the pentatonic minor scale and pinch harmonics, then I suppose Yngwie spams the harmonic minor scale and sweep picking (I say sweep picking because, like how Zakk really doesn't do pinch harmonics that much, it's sort of the thing people associate with him, Yngwie doesn't actually sweep pick nearly as much as other notable shredders, but he was probably the first to be uniquely associated with it). Actually, there was a time when Yngwie was pretty much synonymous with shredding, but, where other similar guys branched out into marketing amps and gizmos (EVH) or producing and lessons (Vai) or going more experimental and then suing Coldplay (Satriani), Yngwie pretty much never changed his skillset nor his image, despite maybe not aging so gracefully, and now, in 2021, you hardly hear his name mentioned.


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## NoodleFace (Oct 11, 2021)

Depends what song of zakks you listen to. There are entire riffs where he has several pinch harmonics baked into the riff. 

On the subject of yngwie I stopped really caring for him around the "focking fury!!" Leak


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## /wrists (Oct 11, 2021)

Synyster Gates - I wouldn't say he gets that much hate, but A7X does get a lot of hate. He's actually an extremely versatile guitar player.


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## bostjan (Oct 11, 2021)

evade said:


> Synyster Gates - I wouldn't say he gets that much hate, but A7X does get a lot of hate. He's actually an extremely versatile guitar player.


There were some very unflattering videos going around many years ago of Synyster Gates bumbling a solo. It started circulating right around the time A7X hit their peak level of mainstream acceptance.


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## /wrists (Oct 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> There were some very unflattering videos going around many years ago of Synyster Gates bumbling a solo. It started circulating right around the time A7X hit their peak level of mainstream acceptance.



It's hard being a metal guitarist - everything about it is technical and none of it is easy, but imagine being Lil Wayne doing this. 



And nothing but positive things happens to your career.


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## bostjan (Oct 11, 2021)

evade said:


> It's hard being a metal guitarist - everything about it is technical and none of it is easy, but imagine being Lil Wayne doing this.
> 
> 
> 
> And nothing but positive things happens to your career.



I don't think Lil Wayne got where he is today because of his guitar skills. Although, he did play guitar for a live rendition of Kid Rock's "All Summer Long" (although you couldn't hear him at all).

I do think that video is particularly notable, though, as potentially one of the bottom 3 guitar performances by a well-known personality ever.


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## michael_bolton (Oct 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Does Yngwie get a bad wrap?



wraps or pitas - no idea - what we do know is he defo is not a fan of fn donuts, thats for sure


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> There were some very unflattering videos going around many years ago of Synyster Gates bumbling a solo. It started circulating right around the time A7X hit their peak level of mainstream acceptance.



Ah, so he got Dragonforce'd.

EDIT: I'd say the hate also stems from the fact they were often lumped into the mid-2000s emo and pop rock scene. My sister was far from a rock/metal fan and she loved A7X. Elitism definitely played a part.


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## wheresthefbomb (Oct 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> I don't think Lil Wayne got where he is today because of his guitar skills. Although, he did play guitar for a live rendition of Kid Rock's "All Summer Long" (although you couldn't hear him at all).
> 
> I do think that video is particularly notable, though, as potentially one of the bottom 3 guitar performances by a well-known personality ever.



In Lil Wayne's defense, he hardly looks like he knows how to hold the thing. He looks legitimately bewildered, like some manager put a guitar in his hands, said "how hard could it be?" and shoved him on stage.


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## Kaura (Oct 11, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> Daisy Berkowitz.
> He never gets brought up but he had a unique style and was a really good songwriter. His work on Portrait Of An American Family and Smells Like Children is the best guitar work on any Marilyn Manson album. He was definitely the best guitarist that band ever had and Manson wouldn't have gotten to be as big if it wasn't for Daisy.



I have to disagree. John 5 is who really elevated that band. The Golden Age Of Grotesque is easily my favorite MM album, mostly because of John's tasty guitar work. Kudos also to the guy who wrote The Beautiful People riff. That song still slaps hard.


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## Hoss632 (Oct 11, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> Prob a bit early doors for him, not sure why everyone hates FFDP if I'm honest I quite like some of their stuff, though some of their personal views are way too right wing for me.
> But then you know he is so well repsected anyway from his Lick Library lessons and youtube channel, certainly dont think he counts now. I'd say his joining FFDP is very much like Richie Kotzen when he joined Poison, they will both be considered to be "Too Good" for the band they have joined and so will be excused from any hate


Best thing I could think of was Mark Tremonti while in Creed. I think he was pretty limited on what he could do because of Scott Stapp in that situation. Granted now with Alter Bridge and his own band Tremonti you can see how good he really is.


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## Hoss632 (Oct 11, 2021)

chinnybob said:


> Billie Joe Armstrong.
> 
> Fight me.


They said good guitar players. I am as big a Green Day fan as anyone but Billie Joe isn't that great a player. He's just good at what he does. I'd say Mike Dirnt is a better bass player than billie joe is at guitar honestly.


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## mastapimp (Oct 11, 2021)

bostjan said:


> From everything I've read, though, I'd be nervous to meet him, since he allegedly beats women and, also, he don't like donits.


I met the dude back in the late 90s when he was promoting the Inspiration album and he was pretty nice to me and other folks waiting to get some of his time. Hard to judge a guy in 2 minutes, but he wasn't anything like the legendary reputation. Perhaps it's cause I caught him in the afternoon before he'd been drinking and there wasn't any cameras/media around. Al Di Meola on the other hand was an asshole that day.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

Kaura said:


> I have to disagree. John 5 is who really elevated that band. The Golden Age Of Grotesque is easily my favorite MM album, mostly because of John's tasty guitar work. Kudos also to the guy who wrote The Beautiful People riff. That song still slaps hard.


John 5 was easily the worst guitarist of the band. He didn't really do much besides some nu metal riffs and it wasn't anything special. GAOG was my fav album but honestly that was Tim Skold's doing. Even his guitar playing for the following album was more memorable than anything John 5 did. John 5 isn't responsible for any of Manson's biggest songs. Manson, Twiggy, and Daisy are.


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## mmr007 (Oct 12, 2021)

I don't know what John 5 contributed to any MM album because I never followed that band...but John 5 has never been the worst guitarist of any band ...ever


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## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> I don't know what John 5 contributed to any MM album because I never followed that band...but John 5 has never been the worst guitarist of any band ...ever


He's not even interesting in Rob Zombie. He's alright but I've never heard him do anything I could pick out of anything else as a defining John 5 style unless it's just power chords and bro riffs


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## chinnybob (Oct 12, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> They said good guitar players. I am as big a Green Day fan as anyone but Billie Joe isn't that great a player. He's just good at what he does. I'd say Mike Dirnt is a better bass player than billie joe is at guitar honestly.



If we assume that Billie Joe is a "good" guitar player then this is the bad rap that proves my point 

I think he's a _great _guitar player. Does he play six string sweeps at 200bpm? No. Does he write a ton of awesome riffs? Yes.


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 12, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> John 5 was easily the worst guitarist of the band. He didn't really do much besides some nu metal riffs and it wasn't anything special. GAOG was my fav album but honestly that was Tim Skold's doing. Even his guitar playing for the following album was more memorable than anything John 5 did. John 5 isn't responsible for any of Manson's biggest songs. Manson, Twiggy, and Daisy are.





mmr007 said:


> I don't know what John 5 contributed to any MM album because I never followed that band...but John 5 has never been the worst guitarist of any band ...ever





STRHelvete said:


> He's not even interesting in Rob Zombie. He's alright but I've never heard him do anything I could pick out of anything else as a defining John 5 style unless it's just power chords and bro riffs



I love John he is a fcuking incredible player, but I totally agree with @STRHelvete here, as far as Manson and Rob Zombie goes I don't think he has contributed anything to those bands even close to what J & Riggs did for WZ/Rob solo stuff or Daisy, Twiggy & Tim Skold did for Manson. Manson really owes much of his success and carreer to Twiggy & then Tim.
In Johns defense I'd say he is another one who you could tag as being "too good" of a player for Manson and Rob. His technical ablilty is way beyond whats required for being the guitarist in either of those bands - Like having a space shuttle pilot dusting crops! haha
Seriously though I do hate decribing guitarists like that, no one is really too good for any band and John has been with Rob for donkeys years now so he obviously loves working with Rob & vise versa. And I have to say I love Rob's latest album too, his best in some time imo


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## Hoss632 (Oct 12, 2021)

chinnybob said:


> If we assume that Billie Joe is a "good" guitar player then this is the bad rap that proves my point
> 
> I think he's a _great _guitar player. Does he play six string sweeps at 200bpm? No. Does he write a ton of awesome riffs? Yes.


Awesome riff's? Yup I agree.
I see your point. Which got me thinking about Tony Rambola from Godsmack. very under rated and is one of my favorite guitarists.


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## LostTheTone (Oct 12, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> Awesome riff's? Yup I agree.
> I see your point. Which got me thinking about Tony Rambola from Godsmack. very under rated and is one of my favorite guitarists.



Godsmack are an underrated band generally, honestly.


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## Hoss632 (Oct 12, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Godsmack are an underrated band generally, honestly.


Truer words were never spoken


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## bostjan (Oct 12, 2021)

Not sure how big they are in the UK, but when they were most active, they were probably the biggest and most well-known hard rock band around the area where I lived (early-mid 2000's). Not sure how anyone could be under-rated if they are rated #1, but okay.

When I think of under-rated bands, I think of bands that did *not* get the recognition. For example, Focus, in the 70's, in the USA, were totally unknown, save for a few people hearing "Hocus Pocus," yet they were an absolutely amazing band way ahead of their time. Or God Forbid, one of the catchiest-sounding metal bands of their time, getting on second stage at Ozzfest, despite being every bit as good as the main stage bands, hitting harder than their contemporaries for 10+ years, and then ending with absolutely no fanfare. Those are what I think of as underrated bands, not bands like Godsmack who, although great, got every opportunity to get into people's ears.


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## akinari (Oct 12, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> John 5 isn't responsible for any of Manson's biggest songs. Manson, Twiggy, and Daisy are.



And Tommy Victor.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 12, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> Daisy Berkowitz. He was definitely the best guitarist that band ever had and Manson wouldn't have gotten to be as big if it wasn't for Daisy.











STRHelvete said:


> John 5 was easily the worst guitarist of the band.


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## chinnybob (Oct 12, 2021)

bostjan said:


> When I think of under-rated bands, I think of bands that did *not* get the recognition. For example, Focus, in the 70's, in the USA, were totally unknown, save for a few people hearing "Hocus Pocus," yet they were an absolutely amazing band way ahead of their time. Or God Forbid, one of the catchiest-sounding metal bands of their time, getting on second stage at Ozzfest, despite being every bit as good as the main stage bands, hitting harder than their contemporaries for 10+ years, and then ending with absolutely no fanfare. Those are what I think of as underrated bands, not bands like Godsmack who, although great, got every opportunity to get into people's ears.



+1 for God Forbid being underrated, Constitution of Treason is one of my all time favourite albums, but I guess this thread isn't about recognition and more about who is unfairly maligned.


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## LostTheTone (Oct 12, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Not sure how big they are in the UK, but when they were most active, they were probably the biggest and most well-known hard rock band around the area where I lived (early-mid 2000's). Not sure how anyone could be under-rated if they are rated #1, but okay.
> 
> When I think of under-rated bands, I think of bands that did *not* get the recognition. For example, Focus, in the 70's, in the USA, were totally unknown, save for a few people hearing "Hocus Pocus," yet they were an absolutely amazing band way ahead of their time. Or God Forbid, one of the catchiest-sounding metal bands of their time, getting on second stage at Ozzfest, despite being every bit as good as the main stage bands, hitting harder than their contemporaries for 10+ years, and then ending with absolutely no fanfare. Those are what I think of as underrated bands, not bands like Godsmack who, although great, got every opportunity to get into people's ears.



Oh man fucking _no-one_ in Britain knows who Godsmack are. Never heard them played in a club, even during their height when I got into them. It's not like they never toured here or something either. They just seem to have slipped everyone's collective memory.


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 12, 2021)

Unironically judging John 5 for what he contributed to a band that amounts to butt rock Drop D riffs is pretty low brow 

Could say the same about a guitarist like Emil Werstler, I don't think any band has legitimately made best use of his music knowledge/ability when it comes to shred. Chimaira is far more interesting from a metal standpoint, but other than Avalanche of Worms/Verlorener you never get a taste of what he's fully capable of doing as a solo composer. You always knew he could shred from his spotlight moments in Daath or Chimaira though, and the betcha videos.


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## LostTheTone (Oct 12, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Could say the same about a guitarist like Emil Werstler, I don't think any band has legitimately made best use of his music knowledge/ability when it comes to shred. Chimaira is far more interesting from a metal standpoint, but other than Avalanche of Worms/Verlorener you never get a taste of what he's fully capable of doing as a solo composer. You always knew he could shred from his spotlight moments in Daath or Chimaira though, and the betcha videos.



Emil is a good shout - There are a few guys like him out there who have way more to show than is on their albums, but they also are kinda not driven to go and do solo projects either. Like, he works best with other people but other people never realize his power level, so they are just quietly awesome.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Emil is a good shout - There are a few guys like him out there who have way more to show than is on their albums, but they also are kinda not driven to go and do solo projects either. Like, he works best with other people but other people never realize his power level, so they are just quietly awesome.



I know he's been working on a solo album... But hasn't it been in the works for like a decade now?


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## Tree (Oct 12, 2021)

Emil definitely fits the bill for this thread, I think.

As someone that can't get into Daath, doesn't listen to Chimera, just about all I know of him is "gypsy jazz, gypsy jazz" kind of memes about his playing. He's obviously talented, but seems to get pigeon-holed in just about every way possible.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Unironically judging John 5 for what he contributed to a band that amounts to butt rock Drop D riffs is pretty low brow



If every other guitarists managed to leave their mark then I'd say John 5 not doing much is his doing. Every other guitarist got solos, interesting riffs, etc. Hell even Dave Navarro had an interesting moment in that band. John 5 didn't have anything. 

Dude was a session musician before getting into Manson and Zombie..and he played it like a session musician. 
Both bands were established off of the work of other guitarists before John 5 showed up. Neither band had anything defining during his time with them.


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 12, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I know he's been working on a solo album... But hasn't it been in the works for like a decade now?



Verlorener, he dropped it in 2018 awesome album with a unique footprint considering it was an instrumental album. Feels like a soundtrack to a spy flick, I thoroughly enjoyed it but it doesn't get regular rotation for me personally.





STRHelvete said:


> If every other guitarists managed to leave their mark then I'd say John 5 not doing much is his doing. Every other guitarist got solos, interesting riffs, etc. Hell even Dave Navarro had an interesting moment in that band. John 5 didn't have anything.
> 
> Dude was a session musician before getting into Manson and Zombie..and he played it like a session musician.
> Both bands were established off of the work of other guitarists before John 5 showed up. Neither band had anything defining during his time with them.



Maybe so, but not sure I can personally hear much of what those guys do in Manson's work either. John is way above their paygrade no matter how you spin it, sticking intricate solos and riffs in a Manson song probably wouldn't turn out so great anyways.

It's not like we have insight on their recording process, it's not the first time artists are refused input on the final product and it won't be the last. But we'll never know unless one of them has anything to say about it.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Verlorener, he dropped it in 2018 awesome album with a unique footprint considering it was an instrumental album. Feels like a soundtrack to a spy flick, I thoroughly enjoyed it but it doesn't get regular rotation for me personally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have ears. If every other guitarist gets writing credits and manages to put in solos and interesting things, and John 5 has several writing credits and didn't do anything interesting then it's on him.

He just flat out was not a member that contributed in a substantial way like the others. It just is what it is


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Maybe so, but not sure I can personally hear much of what those guys do in Manson's work either. John is way above their paygrade no matter how you spin it, sticking intricate solos and riffs in a Manson song probably wouldn't turn out so great anyways.
> 
> It's not like we have insight on their recording process, it's not the first time artists are refused input on the final product and it won't be the last. But we'll never know unless one of them has anything to say about it.



It sounds like in Manson and Zombie he forces himself to hold back. When you listen to DLR band and his solo stuff, you can hear how insane he can really be.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 12, 2021)

Most kids at GC could handle the Manson gig. And they could probably learn the set on the trip to the venue.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Most kids at GC could handle the Manson gig. And they could probably learn the set on the trip to the venue.



One of the first songs I learned on guitar was This Is The New Shit.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> One of the first songs I learned on guitar was This Is The New Shit.


Which, ironically was a John 5 song


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## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It sounds like in Manson and Zombie he forces himself to hold back. When you listen to DLR band and his solo stuff, you can hear how insane he can really be.


Is he a good guitarist? Obviously. Was he anything noteworthy in Manson? No.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> Which, ironically was a John 5 song





STRHelvete said:


> Is he a good guitarist? Obviously. Was he anything noteworthy in Manson? No.



Which was my point earlier. He sounded really held back in Manson. Shit I even preferred 2wo (which also gets a lot of undeserved hate IMO).


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 12, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Which was my point earlier. He sounded really held back in Manson. Shit I even preferred 2wo (which also gets a lot of undeserved hate IMO).



2wo was great.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 12, 2021)

I think its just a question of phrasing. John 5 was the best guitarist that was ever in MM (I can say that without even knowing who else was in the band) but you and many others may feel he contributed the least to the style of music MM is known and liked for. You stated he was the worst guitarist in the band and that seems to be a judgement call on ability which it seems is not what you meant.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> 2wo was great.


Yessir. I feel like the combination of Halford doing something completely different + him coming out put a damper on that album.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 12, 2021)

Only MM could bring the worst out the sweetest dude in metal.


----------



## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> I think its just a question of phrasing. John 5 was the best guitarist that was ever in MM (I can say that without even knowing who else was in the band) but you and many others may feel he contributed the least to the style of music MM is known and liked for. You stated he was the worst guitarist in the band and that seems to be a judgement call on ability which it seems is not what you meant.


No, I said what I meant. How others took it is another story.

John 5 was the least memorable guitarist in Manson's discography. I didn't say anything about his ability..then again it doesn't matter how great of a player you are if no one hears it. So again out of all the guitarists in Manson's discography, he'd be the worst. He offered nothing substantial, didn't make much of an impact, none of his songs became signature Manson tracks and his writing for the band consisted of basic stuff that wasn't all that interesting in comparison to the other songwriters in the band. He was the worst.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Only MM could bring the worst out the sweetest dude in metal.




I mean the news in the passed year has shown Manson isn't a... very great human being.  And I'm under-delivering the fuck out of that statement.


----------



## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Only MM could bring the worst out the sweetest dude in metal.



It's amazing that no one has knocked Manson's head off by now. I couldn't be in that band because I'd have whooped his ass after about the 2nd show



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean the news in the passed year has shown Manson isn't a... very great human being.  And I'm under-delivering the fuck out of that statement.



It's been painfully obvious for 20+ years that the dude's an asshole. His fans just choose to ignore it.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 12, 2021)

So from a talent perspective not related to efforts in MM John 5 is the worst and least talented of all the guitarists that have been in that band?


----------



## STRHelvete (Oct 12, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> So from a talent perspective not related to efforts in MM John 5 is the worst and least talented of all the guitarists that have been in that band?


It's been said already.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 12, 2021)




----------



## mastapimp (Oct 13, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> We have ears. If every other guitarist gets writing credits and manages to put in solos and interesting things, and John 5 has several writing credits and didn't do anything interesting then it's on him.
> 
> He just flat out was not a member that contributed in a substantial way like the others. It just is what it is


I gotta agree with this. As someone that still remembers when Manson came onto the scene and exploded in popularity on MTV, the material with Daisy and Twiggy handling guitars was superior in almost every way to what John 5 put in. I stopped listening to them shortly after J5 left, and can tell you that the music wasn't as interesting when he was in the band. I love watching the guy play his demented country infused shred stuff, but it has that sort of "see it once and forget it" quality to it where I don't necessarily feel the need to return to his material.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (Oct 13, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean the news in the passed year has shown Manson isn't a... very great human being.  And I'm under-delivering the fuck out of that statement.


i don't follow them or care for their music, but what happened or what did he do?


----------



## STRHelvete (Oct 13, 2021)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> i don't follow them or care for their music, but what happened or what did he do?


What hasn't he done?

Cracked his drummer's skull with his mic stand..as he was notorious for attacking band members and stage crew with it.
Claimed he had Corona and some other disease while spitting and blowing snot rockets that hit people in the crowd
Rubbed his junk on a security guards head and got sued
Has constantly attacked and/or threatened to kill stage hands and people who work for him.
Threatened to kill a journalist for putting his real name in print.
Pulled a gun on someone from Spin magazine for some reason or another.

But now it's getting out that he was abusive to girlfriends and terrorized women while on drug fueled crazy binges.

Yeah..that's just all I can remember off the top of my head but it's more than enough. Pretty much all of that, by the way, you can find proof of on youtube and whatnot...besides the girlfriends thing but if he treats everyone around him that way then it stands to reason lots of women in his life caught the shit end of it too.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent (Oct 13, 2021)

The Mirror said:


> Bad rep?
> 
> Easy. Nuno.
> 
> ...



Amongst guitarists and the industry, Nuno has a great rep. He's been asked to produce-write on many "big" pop songs, as well as do gigs for popular artists (e.g. Lady Gaga, Rihanna, etc.). Guitarists like Tosin Abasi, John Petrucci, etc. all praise Nuno.

Amongst the general public, for the sample of people near me I'd say Nuno has been forgotten but does not have a bad rep.


----------



## WarMachine (Oct 13, 2021)

Warren DiMartini 
George Lynch
Marty fuckin Friedman
I know George and Marty get praise, but Marty should get it anytime someone mentions lead guitar and melody.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Oct 13, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Amongst guitarists and the industry, Nuno has a great rep. He's been asked to produce-write on many "big" pop songs, as well as do gigs for popular artists (e.g. Lady Gaga, Rihanna, etc.). Guitarists like Tosin Abasi, John Petrucci, etc. all praise Nuno.
> 
> Amongst the general public, for the sample of people near me I'd say Nuno has been forgotten but does not have a bad rep.



I would imagine a lot of non-rock & metal people do know him from all his time with Rihanna. 
Of course Extreme are infinitely more than the "More Than Words duo..." LOL! and deserved to be far bigger, but so should many many other bands from the late 80's early 90's (thanks Seattle!). But honestly Nuno as a guitar player and as a person is the polar opposite of what this thread is about


----------



## STRHelvete (Oct 13, 2021)

Nuno is by far one of the most gorgeous guitarists ever. Not even personally attracted to him but that is one beautiful man


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

As I am sitting here playing my N4, Nuno NEVER had a bad wrap. He is the heir to EVH. The only problem is that the style of music - rock - is not mainstream like it once was. Everyone that have ever tried to play an Extreme song outside the two acoustic super-singles knows that the dude has the best rhythm chops out there (And his soloing is a cluster-fuck of difficulty for anyone). Again, a lot of y'all must have missed the 80s when rock guitarists were gods. Nuno, Warren DeMartini, George Lynch, Marty Friedman, etc etc were on every magazine cover around and their licks were being copied by guitarists everywhere. People forgot how to have a good time and started wearing flannel and singing their heroin dream lyrics.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> As I am sitting here playing my N4, Nuno NEVER had a bad wrap. He is the heir to EVH. The only problem is that the style of music - rock - is not mainstream like it once was. Everyone that have ever tried to play an Extreme song outside the two acoustic super-singles knows that the dude has the best rhythm chops out there (And his soloing is a cluster-fuck of difficulty for anyone). Again, a lot of y'all must have missed the 80s when rock guitarists were gods. Nuno, Warren DeMartini, George Lynch, Marty Friedman, etc etc were on every magazine cover around and their licks were being copied by guitarists everywhere. People forgot how to have a good time and started wearing flannel and singing their heroin dream lyrics.



Not all of us were around for the Cretaceous period of rock, grandad.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Not all of us were around for the Cretaceous period of rock, grandad.



Clearly. And you are less interesting as a result.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Clearly. And you are less interesting as a result.



Almost certainly true.

I have many times told my wife that my life would be immeasurably improved by cocaine, groupies and Poison-hair. For some reason she doesn't seem to agree.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Almost certainly true.
> 
> I have many times told my wife that my life would be immeasurably improved by cocaine, groupies and Poison-hair. For some reason she doesn't seem to agree.



Amen.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Almost certainly true.
> 
> I have many times told my wife that my life would be immeasurably improved by cocaine, groupies and Poison-hair. For some reason she doesn't seem to agree.


God Bless Rock 'n Roll


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 13, 2021)

Ok I am getting confused and want to know if we are uselessly arguing semantics or usefully arguing who lives in reality and who doesnt. 
First this thread should have been titled “Guitarists who are surprisingly better than the reputation permanently assigned to them by internet guitar forums” but we’ll address that later. This notion that John 5 was the worst guitarist in MM is ridiculous. He may have been the “worst fit” but since he is one of the most talented unique players on the planet the assertion that that band had not one but two better guitarists defies logic. If Head quit Korn again and they hired Yngwie you could definitely say that would be the WORST fit for that band but you could not say Yngwie was the worst guitarist that was ever in that band considering the others dont even know how to solo. 
Nuno had a bad “wrap”? Ok now we are just throwing out names of guitarists we are familiar with


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> God Bless Rock 'n Roll



Maaan can you imagine being Vince Neil back in the era when actual women came to rock shows? I grew up in the 'fat dudes in cargo shorts' era and... I mean it was alright, but it's not the same


----------



## bostjan (Oct 13, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> Ok I am getting confused and want to know if we are uselessly arguing semantics or usefully arguing who lives in reality and who doesnt


I guess this is a similar spirit to my earlier post in the thread.

Also...
If we agree that a guitar player has a bad reputations on forums, on this forum, aren't we trying to prove an oxymoron?

Might as well say "Jimi Hendrix."


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

Why is anyone arguing over who was most important guitarist in a band as unremarkable as Marilyn Manson?


----------



## Tree (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Why is anyone arguing over who was most important guitarist in a band as unremarkable as Marilyn Manson?



Cause forum! And if you disagree with me, we can take the next few pages of the thread to argue semantics while being completely unwilling to see each other's points.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Why is anyone arguing over who was most important guitarist in a band as unremarkable as Marilyn Manson?



Manson is a weird example - A band (or dude) who are very important but are not especially musically interesting. The focus is on Manson himself, so there isn't much space for good shredding. And yet, well, we can all probably hum a half dozen Manson hits.

And for the record, John 5 is the man. He had the 5 added by deedpole, that's how awesome he is.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> A band (or dude) who are very important


I guess I missed that


----------



## michael_bolton (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Maaan can you imagine being Vince Neil back in the era when actual women came to rock shows? I grew up in the 'fat dudes in cargo shorts' era and... I mean it was alright, but it's not the same



defo not the same as it was back in them days but there are some bands that do have a higher ratio of women attending than some others. was pretty surprised when I saw this at the Alestorm gig (I went to see Trollfest). for bands like BNL the ratio is 50/50 from what I've seen, although that was like 10 yrs ago so there's that.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I guess I missed that



I think he meant the character of MM is more important to the popularity of the band rather than the actual music. All image.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I guess I missed that



Come on man, don't be obtuse. You don't have to like the music to see that his influence is really widely felt, or that his cultural impact spread out into the mainstream in a way that almost no-one else has done since then.

My mum knows who Marilyn Manson is, without ever hearing his music.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 13, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> defo not the same as it was back in them days but there are some bands that do have a higher ratio of women attending than some others. was pretty surprised when I saw this at the Alestorm gig (I went to see Trollfest). for bands like BNL the ratio is 50/50 from what I've seen, although that was like 10 yrs ago so there's that.



Once I went to an Ani DiFranco concert. No joke, other than me and my brother, there were literally no other dudes in the audience. But that's probably not at all the sort of scenario you guys are talking about. Anyway, Ani DiFranco put on a hell of a show.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> I think he meant the character of MM is more important to the popularity of the band rather than the actual music. All image.



Yes, exactly that. No-one is buying Manson's records to hear the latest guitar wizardry. It's all about his weird lyrical styling set to catchy but simply guitars. So even if you put an absolute shredlord in the band, it wouldn't make much difference. And yet Manson tends to hire people who have some proper chops, and then takes glee in not using them. Weird dude.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Come on man, don't be obtuse. You don't have to like the music to see that his influence is really widely felt, or that his cultural impact spread out into the mainstream in a way that almost no-one else has done since then.
> 
> My mum knows who Marilyn Manson is, without ever hearing his music.


At best Marilyn Manson is Alice Cooper 30 years late.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> At best Marilyn Manson is Alice Cooper 30 years late.



No one is saying anything different.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> At best Marilyn Manson is Alice Cooper 30 years late.



Yeah, that's my point.

Cooper too was incredibly influential, but it's a band about Cooper himself and not especially remembered for incredible guitar work. Whoever his million various guitarists have been, I'm sure some of them shred like lunatics, but Cooper isn't a shreddy band so I wouldn't know.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

I don't see how a rehash of someone else's gimmick is important


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Yeah, that's my point.
> 
> Cooper too was incredibly influential, but it's a band about Cooper himself and not especially remembered for incredible guitar work. Whoever his million various guitarists have been, I'm sure some of them shred like lunatics, but Cooper isn't a shreddy band so I wouldn't know.



Steve Vai and Joe Satriani both played on Cooper's Feed My Frankenstein. Still, it doesn't matter, because Alice was the draw. By the time Manson was popular, rock solos weren't important so they really had no place in MM's music. Right now, Machine Gun Kelly is making his own stab at _shock_ rock, but pop punk seems to be the closest thing to his sound.



StevenC said:


> I don't see how a rehash of someone else's gimmick is important



Everything old is new again with the passage of time.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I don't see how a rehash of someone else's gimmick is important



Because he influenced a generation of musicians, and a generation of metal fans...?

Also, he didn't steal Cooper's gimmick. Manson's character draws much more from Trent Reznor and hip-hop. His 'goth pimp' thing is not necessarily unique but it's not Alice Cooper homage either.

Cooper's influence is seen much more in his stage show, or at least his earlier 'dark carnival' stuff. But even that was mediated through 30 years of horror movies and has weird side influences from ICP and such.

Musically, there's a lot of industrial there, but it's far from just a NIN clone. His signature sound is effectively an American Neue Deutsche Harte sound, except that Manson was already working on that before Megahertz and Ooomph. The industrial metal that was around in 1990 was Ministry and Skinny Puppy, not the chuggy riff driven stuff that broke into the mainstream with Rammstein. But Manson is the reason why that sound defines the genre.

As I say, you don't have to like the dude (he seems to be kinda a douche) or his music to see that he had a big impact.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

I believe the word I used was unremarkable, and I'm not yet convinced otherwise.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I believe the word I used was unremarkable, and I'm not yet convinced otherwise.



... Dude, you DIDN'T say 'unremarkable'. You said you didn't see why he was important.


----------



## Tree (Oct 13, 2021)

I like how this started from him saying he doesn't understand why people were arguing over the importance of Manson's guitarists to having a full fledged argument about Manson himself. 

Well done internet. You've done your job today.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Oct 13, 2021)

Been lost to the mists of time clearly as it seems people don't remember or don't know just how HUGE Manson was between Antichrist and Mechanical Animals. Late 90s he was arguably the biggest metal act on the planet and those 2 albums are great albums. 

Shall we get back on topic tho?


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I believe the word I used was unremarkable, and I'm not yet convinced otherwise.



I dunno. He sold 10 million albums, burned bibles live every night in front of tens of thousands of fans, terrified the Christian right, and discussed his opinions on every network around. He was basically doing what every Norwegian black metal band was hoping to do. Manson was a cultural phenomenon.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> Been lost to the mists of time clearly as it seems people don't remember or don't know just how HUGE Manson was between Antichrist and Mechanical Animals. Late 90s he was arguably the biggest metal act on the planet and those 2 albums are great albums.
> 
> Shall we get back on topic tho?



I wouldn't even say 'arguably'.

At that time the world was overrun by grunge. The only popular metal bands were those who made their names in the 80s. Back then extreme metal was seriously niche and hard to obtain.

Manson was both something genuinely new sounding, with edgy style, but was also accessible enough to spread nationally back when that was extremely difficult to do.

The fact that Manson was as well known as Kurt Cobain tells you everything you need to know.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> ... Dude, you DIDN'T say 'unremarkable'. You said you didn't see why he was important.





StevenC said:


> Why is anyone arguing over who was most important guitarist in a band as _unremarkable_ as Marilyn Manson?


*exasperated noises*


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> *exasperated noises*



Found this pic of you dodging the point again.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> *exasperated noises*



Fuck me, we get it, you don't like Manson...

But if you're sticking with 'he's not important' then I don't know what else to say except that you are blatantly fucking wrong.

You hate the guy enough to argue about him online 20 years later. The sure sign that he was not memorable


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Fuck me, we get it, you don't like Manson...
> 
> But if you're sticking with 'he's not important' then I don't know what else to say except that you are blatantly fucking wrong.
> 
> You hate the guy enough to argue about him online 20 years later. The sure sign that he was not memorable


I really only know of him from recent rape allegations.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I really only know of him from recent rape allegations.


Pretty sure Google has more info on him than just that he turned out to be a scumbag piece of sh1t to women

I know I'm partly to blame but this thread really is on another planet from where the OP started it! 
#ss.org_gonna_ss.org


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I really only know of him from recent rape allegations.



How do you know he is so unremarkable if you only heard his name this year? Did you see some press clippings then rush out to buy his albums off the back of that?

Oh and this is like the fifth scandal relating to him. A girl died the time before, but apparently you didnt spot it in the press, eh?


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> How do you know he is so unremarkable if you only heard his name this year? Did you see some press clippings then rush out to buy his albums off the back of that?
> 
> Oh and this is like the fifth scandal relating to him. A girl died the time before, but apparently you didnt spot it in the press, eh?


I guess I haven't seen the time you're saying he killed someone. I figure listening to metal and rock for long enough I would have heard the essential, remarkable, and important stuff already. Certainly the essential, remarkable, and important very famous stuff.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

Just remember this is Hot Takes StevieC we are dealing with:



StevenC said:


> The black album isn't a very good album though. It's at most their 5th best effort.
> Also, Helter Skelter did more for metal musically than the black album and is a better metal song than any on that album.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I guess I haven't seen the time you're saying he killed someone. I figure listening to metal and rock for long enough I would have heard the essential, remarkable, and important stuff already. Certainly the essential, remarkable, and important very famous stuff.



Wait, which is it? Have you not heard his music? Or have you heard it and are unimpressed?

You can't have not heard it and also be unimpressed.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 13, 2021)

Jan Akkerman is probably the most overlooked guitarist ever.

Eddie Lang, too, that guy was doing a lot of what Django did, before Django. You never hear anyone really bring up his name, though.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Just remember this is Hot Takes StevieC we are dealing with:


I stand by that. Justice, Master, Ride, Kill Em All, and maybe even Death Magnetic are all better than the black album. That's at best 5th.

And yeah, Helter Skelter is a pretty metal song for 1968. Metallica's 5th album doesn't push anything forward. 


LostTheTone said:


> Wait, which is it? Have you not heard his music? Or have you heard it and are unimpressed?
> 
> You can't have not heard it and also be unimpressed.


Try reading again, please. I am not familiar with his music. If a very high profile act were somehow musically significant I would likely have actively listened to them by now. What you quoted doesn't contradict anything.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Jan Akkerman is probably the most overlooked guitarist ever.
> 
> Eddie Lang, too, that guy was doing a lot of what Django did, before Django. You never hear anyone really bring up his name, though.



Eddie died so young, but his influence was immense. He was the guy that really transitioned guitar players away from the banjo when he started playing an L-5. Being from Philly, Eddie is a legend here. We have a huge mural of him in the neighborhood where he was born and every year there is an Eddie Lang day where his music/arrangements are played.


----------



## JSanta (Oct 13, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Jan Akkerman is probably the most overlooked guitarist ever.
> 
> Eddie Lang, too, that guy was doing a lot of what Django did, before Django. You never hear anyone really bring up his name, though.



In the pre-bop and some jazz circles, Lang is worshipped. There's still an Eddie Lang Festival held in Italy every year. I think Lang is as regarded in jazz circles as almost anyone. His influence is still felt today, no question about it.

Django is Django. For me, there is no more important figure for the guitar. His compositional perspective and command over the instrument are second to none.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Eddie died so young, but his influence was immense. He was the guy that really transitioned guitar players away from the banjo when he started playing an L-5. Being from Philly, Eddie is a legend here. We have a huge mural of him in the neighborhood where he was born and every year there is an Eddie Lang day where his music/arrangements are played.





JSanta said:


> In the pre-bop and some jazz circles, Lang is worshipped. There's still an Eddie Lang Festival held in Italy every year. I think Lang is as regarded in jazz circles as almost anyone. His influence is still felt today, no question about it.
> 
> Django is Django. For me, there is no more important figure for the guitar. His compositional perspective and command over the instrument are second to none.


I'll be darned! I never knew about Eddie Lang Day. Turns out, there's one in Philly, too, and it's coming right up.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Try reading again, please. I am not familiar with his music. If a very high profile act were somehow musically significant I would likely have actively listened to them by now. What you quoted doesn't contradict anything.



Fuck me, so you have been arguing all night about music that you literally haven't heard? 

So why did you emphasize that you find his music 'unremarkable' when you literally haven't fucking heard any of it?

How can you judge how influential his music is, when you genuinely can't tell if something was influenced by him?

Just... Normal people say 'I haven't heard it, so I wouldn't know'. Deeply insane people say 'I haven't heard it, so it can't be important'.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 13, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Fuck me, so you have been arguing all night about music that you literally haven't heard?
> 
> So why did you emphasize that you find his music 'unremarkable' when you literally haven't fucking heard any of it?
> 
> ...


No, I've been playing Metroid and looking at my phone occasionally.


----------



## LostTheTone (Oct 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> No, I've been playing Metroid and looking at my phone occasionally.



Jesus Christ, you are seriously arguing about whether we have been arguing? 

OK dude, whatever.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 13, 2021)

I have no problem with anyone liking or loving MM’s music. I have numerous guilty pleasures. Sometimes a raucous 4 on the floor metal noise is just what the doc ordered. The only reason I pressed an issue about MM is that “john 5” and “worst guitarist” shouldnt be in the same sentence. Other than that debate is fun but arguing is pointless


----------



## STRHelvete (Oct 13, 2021)

Are people still arguing about this? Holy fuck.

Wanna know how underrated Daisy Berkowitz is? He was the entire topic of the post, yet it became an 85 page discussion on Manson's nonsense and John 5 being pointless.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 13, 2021)

Did anyone bring up Reb Beach? Or did I already do that? I just want this to get back on topic.


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> Wanna know how underrated Daisy Berkowitz is?



Dude is so underrated that we forgot about him... because he's basically forgettable. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Did anyone bring up Reb Beach? Or did I already do that? I just want this to get back on topic.



Is Reb Beach underrated? Nah. He's a total bad ass.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Is Reb Beach underrated? Nah. He's a total bad ass.



Winger wasn't exactly the most well respected band.  That's changed in recent years at least,


----------



## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Winger wasn't exactly the most well respected band.  That's changed in recent years at least,



It depends on the circles you were in at the time. I've always been a bigger Winger fan than, say, Metallica  but when you make the one of the biggest selling albums of all time and feud with Kip, Winger will get pissed on by a lot of people. That said, Winger made killer music and had a lot of chart success. Their Pull album is overlooked, but I think it is outstanding. That said, the mid-90s didn't do them any favors.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 13, 2021)

Just let me bring up how awesome Reb Beach is without clogging another 5 pages of this thread.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

Gotcha!


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## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

And if you dig Reb, check out his side project with Jeff Pilson, Robin McAuley, and Matt Starr - *Black Swan*.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> And if you dig Reb, check out his side project with Jeff Pilson, Robin McAuley, and Matt Starr - *Black Swan*.




Does Jeff have any projects where he sings lead vocals? Dude's an underrated as fuck singer.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 13, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Does Jeff have any projects where he sings lead vocals? Dude's an underrated as fuck singer.



He sang lead vocals on this Lynch & Pilson project.


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## mastapimp (Oct 13, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Just let me bring up how awesome Reb Beach is without clogging another 5 pages of this thread.


He wouldn't be mentioned in this thread if it wasn't for Stewart from Beavis and Butthead...that alone torpedoed his band's status


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## mmr007 (Oct 13, 2021)

Reb Beach was the easily the worst guitarist in Dokken


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## LostTheTone (Oct 14, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> I have no problem with anyone liking or loving MM’s music. I have numerous guilty pleasures. Sometimes a raucous 4 on the floor metal noise is just what the doc ordered. The only reason I pressed an issue about MM is that “john 5” and “worst guitarist” shouldnt be in the same sentence. Other than that debate is fun but arguing is pointless



Right. John 5 is a great guitarist, but also one who works with big personalities (David Lee Roth and Rob Zombie too) that tend to get most of the attention. Which is why he's almost certainly underrated in the public consciousness, even though I know he has his own little tribe of fans.


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## STRHelvete (Oct 14, 2021)

QUOTE="mmr007, post: 5327611, member: 27955"]Reb Beach was the easily the worst guitarist in Dokken[/QUOTE]
At least he isn't John 5...then he'd really be terrible amirite?


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 14, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> Reb Beach was the easily the worst guitarist in Dokken


LOL!!
Reb is incredible. Saw him a few years back with Whitesnake shortly after Doug had left and Reb had taken over that band leader slot. He was just incendiary that night, tbf so was Joel Hoekstra. Hell of a guitar duo. All his Winger stuff tho is awesome, I still play Pull & In the Heart of the Young loads! I do feel for Reb a little as the whole time he has been with Whitesnake Coverdale has favoured Doug Aldrich and now it seems Joel when it comes to writing new material. 

As Ive mentioned him I will throw Doug Aldrich out there, he's been the hired gun too many times and prob most know him for being in Dio and Whitesnake but his band Burning Rain is fantastic and Doug just rips it up like no tomorrow. Revolution Saint's his "Super Group" with Jake Blades & Deen Castronovo is tight as well but a bit more AOR'y than the straight up hard rock of Burning Rain


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 14, 2021)

Don't think anyone has mentioned any female guitarist yet, generally by dint of them not being male they tend to get a lot of sh1t when they are actually really *really* good.
Couple of my favourite ones that immediately come to mind are Courtney Cox & Nikki Stringfield (The Iron Maidens & Femme Fatale) they generally get dumped on & dismissed coz they are in a tribute act but they are both amazing. Michelle Meldrum (Phanthom Blue and Meldrum) sadly passed away a few yrs back but she started out at like 16 in Phanthom Blue when they were pretty much a female Racer X, she was incredible. Got a lot more metal with Meldrum along side the likes of Gene Holgan on one album, but she was an insane player. Also married to John Norum till she passed away. Berit Hagen (aka The Commander-In-Chief). Her Classical Crossover album with classical guitarist Craig Ogden is one of my favourite guitar instramental albums. She is SO good. And (lights the touch paper and stands back....) Nita Strauss. Incredible guitarist and from all I have read of her and seen poss one of the nicest people in rock considering all the insane amount of BS she has to put up with just coz she is a success and getting the recognition she, and a lot more women guitarist, deserve.
Nil Brosh too. If Tony MacAlpine, Paul Gilbert & Guthrie Govan can see it then everyone else should too


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## STRHelvete (Oct 14, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> Don't think anyone has mentioned any female guitarist yet, generally by dint of them not being male they tend to get a lot of sh1t when they are actually really *really* good.
> Couple of my favourite ones that immediately come to mind are Courtney Cox & Nikki Stringfield (The Iron Maidens & Femme Fatale) they generally get dumped on & dismissed coz they are in a tribute act but they are both amazing. Michelle Meldrum (Phanthom Blue and Meldrum) sadly passed away a few yrs back but she started out at like 16 in Phanthom Blue when they were pretty much a female Racer X, she was incredible. Got a lot more metal with Meldrum along side the likes of Gene Holgan on one album, but she was an insane player. Also married to John Norum till she passed away. Berit Hagen (aka The Commander-In-Chief). Her Classical Crossover album with classical guitarist Craig Ogden is one of my favourite guitar instramental albums. She is SO good. And (lights the touch paper and stands back....) Nita Strauss. Incredible guitarist and from all I have read of her and seen poss one of the nicest people in rock considering all the insane amount of BS she has to put up with just coz she is a success and getting the recognition she, and a lot more women guitarist, deserve.
> Nil Brosh too. If Tony MacAlpine, Paul Gilbert & Guthrie Govan can see it then everyone else should too



I'm currently watching a 2017 Alice Cooper concert on Youtube and Nita is damn near the star of the show. She is absolutely breathtaking and I instantly became a fan. As amazing as she is, it's sad to think there are guys in the crowd nitpicking her playing or assuming someone's behind a curtain playing her stuff instead of her. Female musicians in general are super underrated.


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## bostjan (Oct 14, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> It depends on the circles you were in at the time. I've always been a bigger Winger fan than, say, Metallica  but when you make the one of the biggest selling albums of all time and feud with Kip, Winger will get pissed on by a lot of people. That said, Winger made killer music and had a lot of chart success. Their Pull album is overlooked, but I think it is outstanding. That said, the mid-90s didn't do them any favors.


Winger was generally disliked because they debuted in 1988, when hair metal was already about to burst its bubble, with song lyrics like this:


Winger said:


> She's only seventeen / Daddy says she's too young, but she's old enough for me


Impressive guitar riffs, but calling the lyrics stupid would be an understatement. I guess that's kind of like the vast majority of metal, but when you are making a song to try to appeal to the masses, you have to put a little more thought into it and try to be less, well, you know...


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## ArtDecade (Oct 14, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Winger was generally disliked because they debuted in 1988, when hair metal was already about to burst its bubble, with song lyrics like this:
> 
> Impressive guitar riffs, but calling the lyrics stupid would be an understatement. I guess that's kind of like the vast majority of metal, but when you are making a song to try to appeal to the masses, you have to put a little more thought into it and try to be less, well, you know...



Yeah, but Mr. Big debuted a year later with equally stupid lyrics and gets a pass because they weren't targeted by the biggest selling metal band of all time.


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## LostTheTone (Oct 14, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Winger was generally disliked because they debuted in 1988, when hair metal was already about to burst its bubble, with song lyrics like this:



The ghost of Lemmy has entered the chat...


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## bostjan (Oct 14, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Yeah, but Mr. Big debuted a year later with equally stupid lyrics and gets a pass because they weren't targeted by the biggest selling metal band of all time.


Howso? Outside of Japan, is Mr. Big more notable than Winger? To put some perspective, Winger's debut album peaked at #21 and Mr. Big's at #39. Winger's follow-up peaked at #15, and Mr. Big's at #16, in spite of the "hit" single (honestly, though, that song is more famous for being included in the Monster Ballads compilations than it ever was when it was new).

I'll admit I own two Mr. Big CD's, but I became a huge Paul Gilbert fan after first hearing Racer X around 1999-2000, and I wanted to check out his mainstream act. I honestly only listened to them maybe once or twice, even thought I was spinning Technical Difficulties multiple times a day for a while.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 14, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Howso? Outside of Japan, is Mr. Big more notable than Winger? To put some perspective, Winger's debut album peaked at #21 and Mr. Big's at #39. Winger's follow-up peaked at #15, and Mr. Big's at #16, in spite of the "hit" single (honestly, though, that song is more famous for being included in the Monster Ballads compilations than it ever was when it was new).
> 
> I'll admit I own two Mr. Big CD's, but I became a huge Paul Gilbert fan after first hearing Racer X around 1999-2000, and I wanted to check out his mainstream act. I honestly only listened to them maybe once or twice, even thought I was spinning Technical Difficulties multiple times a day for a while.



That's exactly the point. They debuted around the same time, both had tremendous musicians, silly lyrics, rockers and ballads, and charted roughly the same. The reason Winger gets so much crap is that Metallica (_again_ the biggest selling metal band of all time) took shots at Kip in the media and in their Black Album documentary. If they decided to target Eric Martin instead, we could have expected his face on a dart board and a Mr. Big shirt on Beavis and Butthead. Winger was no different than most of the spandex-clad wearing glam bands of the late-80s, but they found a massive enemy in a massive band and that hurt their image more than a lot of the others.

Also, I love Mr Big, too. And Winger. And even Metallica. It was all silly.


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## Louis Cypher (Oct 14, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> That's exactly the point. They debuted around the same time, both had tremendous musicians, silly lyrics, rockers and ballads, and charted roughly the same. The reason Winger gets so much crap is that Metallica (_again_ the biggest selling metal band of all time) took shots at Kip in the media and in their Black Album documentary. If they decided to target Eric Martin instead, we could have expected his face on a dart board and a Mr. Big shirt on Beavis and Butthead. Winger was no different than most of the spandex-clad wearing glam bands of the late-80s, but they found a massive enemy in a massive band and that hurt their image more than a lot of the others.
> 
> Also, I love Mr Big, too. And Winger. And even Metallica. It was all silly.


I agree, between Metallica Nothin Else Matter video and the Black album doc and then Beavis and Butthead (the irony being all anyone really remembers of that show is ripping Winger and blowing up White Zombie) Winger didn't stand a chance they were always gonna be, even now, "That Band". Which as you both said considering the talent and chops & experience in both Winger & Mr Big is so chuffing harsh! (we're talking ex-members of DLR, Racer X, Talas, Dixie Dreggs, Alice Cooper & big name session players like Reb & Pat Torpey). Who ever Metallica picked on at that point, they were gonna feel it big time in reputation and then on in to sales etc. 

Having said all that, the lyrics to 17 havent aged well at all.


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## LostTheTone (Oct 14, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> Having said all that, the lyrics to 17 havent aged well at all.



Well, whoever she was she's 40 now, so she probably hasn't aged wonderfully either!


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## ArtDecade (Oct 14, 2021)

Kip has changed the lyrics (in a way) over the years whenever the song is performed live. He starts by singing the standard chorus lyrics, but by the second chorus the band is singing "She's only 45" and everyone has a giggle - band and fans.


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## bostjan (Oct 14, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Kip has changed the lyrics (in a way) over the years whenever the song is performed live. He starts by singing the standard chorus lyrics, but by the second chorus the band is singing "She's only 45" and everyone has a giggle - band and fans.


If I'm doing the math right, she should be 50 by now.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 14, 2021)

bostjan said:


> If I'm doing the math right, she should be 50 by now.



Old habits die hard. I guess Kip still likes them younger ladies - and at 45 that's close enough for me.. he... er... him!


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## LostTheTone (Oct 14, 2021)

bostjan said:


> If I'm doing the math right, she should be 50 by now.



In which case, she is timeless like Cher.


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## mmr007 (Oct 14, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> And if you dig Reb, check out his side project with Jeff Pilson, Robin McAuley, and Matt Starr - *Black Swan*.



Dont like the vocals (they arent bad just not my thing) but the song is very cool. Thanks for sharing. I will be checking out more of their songs.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 14, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> In which case, she is timeless like Cher.





Lukather on the solo? Maybe.


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## stinkoman (Oct 14, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Lukather on the solo? Maybe.



Random Fact, The other guitarist in the video she is bumping her barely covered ass on is her son who she had with Greg Allman and started the band Deadsy.


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## LostTheTone (Oct 14, 2021)

stinkoman said:


> Random Fact, The other guitarist in the video she is bumping her barely covered ass on is her son who she had with Greg Allman and started the band Deadsy.



Jesus that was both random and horrifying. 

Thank you


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## bostjan (Oct 14, 2021)

stinkoman said:


> Random Fact, The other guitarist in the video she is bumping her barely covered ass on is her son who she had with Greg Allman and started the band Deadsy.


Oh wow! I never knew that. Add that to the list of things I never wanted to know about. Thanks.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 14, 2021)

I knew it. Do you know how I knew? Remember that Pop-Up Video show on VH1? Yup. 

2 minute 37 seconds make.


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