# Chris Letchford leaves Strandberg for Kiesel



## AkiraSpectrum (Aug 22, 2016)

According to his website: "BIG ANNOUNCEMENT! CHRIS IS NOW AN EXCLUSIVE KIESEL GUITARS ARTIST. HE'LL BE USING THE VADER MODELS AND DESIGNING A NEW SIGNATURE MODEL GUITAR! STAY TUNED FOR UPDATES!"

Instagram: So stoked to tell you guys! I tried a Vader and fell in love with it, so Im very proud to announce that I am now an exclusive Kiesel Guitars artist! Introducing the Gold Digger!


This is pretty surprising to see. I wonder if this move was based on the preference for the instrument or simply an economic decision.


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## ThePIGI King (Aug 22, 2016)

This is crazy. I love Letchford and STS. I can't believe he's leaving Strandberg though. I love his strandy, even though I wouldn't buy it.

I, too, wonder whether or not his decisions was based upon money, benefits from the brand, or maybe he really thinks the Vader is more comfortable than the Strandberg.


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## extendedsolo (Aug 22, 2016)

AkiraSpectrum said:


> According to his website: "BIG ANNOUNCEMENT! CHRIS IS NOW AN EXCLUSIVE KIESEL GUITARS ARTIST. HE'LL BE USING THE VADER MODELS AND DESIGNING A NEW SIGNATURE MODEL GUITAR! STAY TUNED FOR UPDATES!"
> 
> Instagram: So stoked to tell you guys! I tried a Vader and fell in love with it, so Im very proud to announce that I am now an exclusive Kiesel Guitars artist! Introducing the Gold Digger!
> 
> ...



I'm willing to bet that it was an economic one. I'm betting Chris isn't rolling in cash from the CL7 and hopes that he can produce a more affordable Kiesel model and sell that. Maybe a little preference too, but it's not like he's John Mayer level of money where he can leave and people will know it's not about the money.


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## Mathemagician (Aug 22, 2016)

Pretty sure Kiesel can bring a Vader to market with his name on it cheaper than strandbergs. #$$$$$ 

I mean sheeeiiiiiit, I would too.


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## technomancer (Aug 22, 2016)

It's an endorsement deal, of course it's an economic decision


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## ArtDecade (Aug 22, 2016)

technomancer said:


> It's an endorsement deal, of course it's an economic decision



I mean... he _is_ also calling his guitar the *Gold Digger* and all. Ha!


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## TheStig1214 (Aug 22, 2016)

technomancer said:


> It's an endorsement deal, of course it's an economic decision



Yeah I imagine Kiesel has a lot more financial weight to throw around than strandberg does. 

I also imagine the shear volume of guitars, coupled with the fact Carvin and Letchford are both US based makes it a lot easier for development of signatures and delivery of future guitars. What's Ola's wait list right now?

The only thing I'm wondering is how restrictive Kiesel's endorsment deals are. I know Ola is pretty lax about his artists using and promoting other guitar brands. Like how Altius basically got their name known through Chris, even though he was a strandberg artist at the time. Or how Chris came out with a few videos using his Artinger.

I am going to miss those sexy blue Bodens though.


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## marcwormjim (Aug 22, 2016)

The most interesting detail, for me, is Letchford dropping EMG for SD before signing with a company that generally insists they make signature pups in-house, as well. I know Becker's circumstances has him as an exception, but I'm curious to see if Kiesel holds off on releasing a signature Vader with the stupid pacman inlay until Letchford has also signed off on a set of signature Lithiums.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

Not gonna lie, after hearing some Kiesel horror stories, I was a little bummed to hear this. Great for Chris though. It'll sound great and I can't wait to hear it live.


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## marcwormjim (Aug 22, 2016)

Did anyone else catch Strandberg's Facebook dig at Kiesel?#######


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

marcwormjim said:


> Did anyone else catch Strandberg's Facebook dig at Kiesel?#######



Not sure what you're referring to, on Facebook and instagram Strandberg have handled this incredibly well.


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## wannabguitarist (Aug 22, 2016)

Good for Chris. Vaders are awesome guitars  



marcwormjim said:


> Did anyone else catch Strandberg's Facebook dig at Kiesel?#######



Dig?

"Regram from @ola_strandberg - Back in 2010, when I had just barely completed my first set of four prototype guitars, I received a random e-mail from this guy called Chris Letchford, who asked if I could build him a 7-string guitar. I had barely heard of such a thing but naturally accepted the challenge, which became guitar #5 - the rest is history. A million thanks to you @chrisletchford for being my first real customer and for being with us all these years and developing the @strandbergguitars Boden CL7. Best wishes on your onward journey with @jeffkiesel and the team at @kieselcarvinguitars!"

Seems pretty polite.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

wannabguitarist said:


> Good for Chris. Vaders are awesome guitars
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's what impressed me so much. Respectful and kind. Class act, Ola is.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 22, 2016)

Maybe he can help design a new pickup for the seven strings. I have a vader 7 and I like it but the pickups in my opinion blow. I just can't seem to dial out the harsh highs that they have. The guitar itself is great. Plan on putting a Duncan Custom 5 in the bridge. Good for Chris and that was a classy response from Ola!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 22, 2016)

marcwormjim said:


> Did anyone else catch Strandberg's Facebook dig at Kiesel?#######



What dig? Ola was classy towards Chris and Kiesel. probably the classiest endorsement switching response I've ever seen.

Wish I can say the same about his Kiesel, though. I said this on another forum, but his Strandberg was a tasteful and classy guitar. His Kiesel looks like it belongs in a rap music video.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 22, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> What dig? Ola was classy towards Chris and Kiesel. probably the classiest endorsement switching response I've ever seen.
> 
> Wish I can say the same about his Kiesel, though. I said this on another forum, but his Strandberg was a tasteful and classy guitar. His Kiesel looks like it belongs in a rap music video.



Any pics of his new Kiesel?


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## nistley (Aug 22, 2016)

TheDandy said:


> That's what impressed me so much. Respectful and kind. Class act, Ola is.



Having bought two Strandies in the past, all the interactions have only made me want to give them more money, and the above is another kick. Chris playthrough was also my first exposure to both Strandberg and STS, so this is a bit sad. I don't like the 'Gold Digger', the Gibson SG bat ears, the tacky full on gold, or the super chunky looking hardware, or lack of the endurneck I actually love. Endureneck magically made 7s as transparently playable as my 6s for me. But, perhaps it will make Vader more popular with guys who like these things, and I seen many happy NGDs for them on this forum, so good for you guys  Meanwhile, the OS line keeps expanding, so good for Boden fans


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 22, 2016)




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## Mattykoda (Aug 22, 2016)

Whoa. Didn't see that coming but good for Chris. Obviously he's happy with it and that's all that matters.

EDIT: Ola's post was beyond respectful. Good to see a thank you instead of bashing another brand.


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## ThePIGI King (Aug 22, 2016)

Aaaaaaaaaaand I prefer his Strandy.

No STS inlay, Strandy bridge looks better, I liked the offset rectangles more than the dots, the look of the pups doesn't match in my mind, and blue is better than his guitar matching his hair.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 22, 2016)

Yeah, that's just a little too much bling for me LOL. Just noticed the other switch. Wonder what that's for? I'll bet they charge at least $200 just for that color.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 22, 2016)

It's to switch endorsements, most probably haha. 

Ok I'm done *flick*.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

MetalThrasher said:


> Yeah, that's just a little too much bling for me LOL. Just noticed the other switch. Wonder what that's for? I'll bet they charge at least $200 just for that color.



Coil tap possibly? Maybe there'll be a kiesel video about it and it'll explain more.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

xCaptainx said:


> It's to switch endorsements, most probably haha.
> 
> Ok I'm done *flick*.


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## narad (Aug 22, 2016)

Well at least he ditched the pacman inlay. This would actually have been pretty cool in that blingy blue sparkle of his CL7, and while this is pretty tasteful for a Kiesel, not super feeling it. Has in been shown in a video yet? Curious how that finish reacts to the light, and I saw them teasing it a couple weeks ago.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 22, 2016)

MetalThrasher said:


> Yeah, that's just a little too much bling for me LOL. Just noticed the other switch. Wonder what that's for? I'll bet they charge at least $200 just for that color.



I asked Jeff because I was curious (you guys know I love sparkle finishes ), he said it's a $600 upcharge for that one.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> I asked Jeff because I was curious (you guys know I love sparkle finishes ), he said it's a $600 upcharge for that one.


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## technomancer (Aug 22, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> I asked Jeff because I was curious (you guys know I love sparkle finishes ), he said it's a $600 upcharge for that one.



WTF are they actual 24k gold flakes in there


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## Watty (Aug 22, 2016)

I thought the dig was the result of it being so polite. Ola handled himself amazingly well with that statement and therefore made anything that results from this (good or bad) completely on Chris....which is where it should be.

That aside, his new guitar looks terrible compared to the Strandberg. I hope Ola keeps selling it sans the inlay.


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## RPG_Guitars (Aug 22, 2016)

I just bought a Strandberg CL7 on the used market made in the Washburn custom shop. This may be selfish but now I'm feeling a even better about the purchase. I imagine there was not a ton of CL7's made and sold. I wish we could get a count on how many were produced, not including the OS line.


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## yellowv (Aug 22, 2016)

Classy move by Ola, but he shouldn't be mad. He gets to keep playing Strandy's and not Kiesels ;-)


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## xCaptainx (Aug 22, 2016)

Lol 







Post was swiftly removed shortly aftewards


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

yellowv said:


> Classy move by Ola, but he shouldn't be mad. He gets to keep playing Strandy's and not Kiesels ;-)



Doesn't seem like he was mad, just happy for Chris. But agreed on strandy vs kiesel


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## yellowv (Aug 22, 2016)

No he didn't seem like he was mad. I was just joking. As for Strandberg vs Kiesel. I wouldn't trade my OS for anything that Jeff builds more or less giving up made to measure guitars for sparkly gold Vaders.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

yellowv said:


> No he didn't seem like he was mad. I was just joking. As for Strandberg vs Kiesel. I wouldn't trade my OS for anything that Jeff builds more or less giving up made to measure guitars for sparkly gold Vaders.



Agree 100%. Getting an OS 8 L in a couple months. So excited


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## Hollowway (Aug 22, 2016)

Not that there's anything wrong with it, but man, I have trouble keeping up with who is endorsing who. Artists change companies pretty dang fast. I see the purpose from the exposure and the reduced cost instrument for the endorsee and endorser, but as a consumer I have no real desire to own one, because it means very little. I'd like to see an artist come out with something groundbreaking, but that rarely happens. I guess the companies don't want to go too far outside the box on design. But I'd love to see more things like Becker's Numbers guitar. That's pretty cool. Or if Tosin's crazy Beluga gets made.


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## TheDandy (Aug 22, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> Not that there's anything wrong with it, but man, I have trouble keeping up with who is endorsing who. Artists change companies pretty dang fast. I see the purpose from the exposure and the reduced cost instrument for the endorsee and endorser, but as a consumer I have no real desire to own one, because it means very little. I'd like to see an artist come out with something groundbreaking, but that rarely happens. I guess the companies don't want to go too far outside the box on design. But I'd love to see more things like Becker's Numbers guitar. That's pretty cool. Or if Tosin's crazy Beluga gets made.


Totally agree. I want to see more unique designs rather than a slightly modified super strat. Strandberg has the right idea, as do a few others, but some of the bigger names need to follow suit.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 22, 2016)

Good for him, I really don't care who endorses which company since endorsements are usually more of a benefit for both party's expansion and growth. It only really matters to me if I like the model enough to buy it  Interesting bit is on Chris' website it says he's working on a signature model with them.

http://www.chrisletchford.com/

I know Ola doesn't really like working with cocobolo so that could have been a decision for the move as well. When I needed a neck rebuild on my Koaberg last year I was offered a different choice of neck wood since the operations had moved from Washburn to the Sweden Shop.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 22, 2016)

I hate his kiesel. I was really hoping he'd go for a more interesting finish than dollar store bling gold. Does the guitar come with a case of red bull and goldschlager?


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## wannabguitarist (Aug 22, 2016)

Is the gold really that much worse than the sparkle blue? Bright sparkle finishes are inherently tacky


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 22, 2016)

wannabguitarist said:


> Is the gold really that much worse than the sparkle blue? Bright sparkle finishes are inherently tacky



His Strandberg was trans blue.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 22, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> I asked Jeff because I was curious (you guys know I love sparkle finishes ), he said it's a $600 upcharge for that one.



That's insane! BTW still wanna know what the extra switch is for?


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 22, 2016)

Here are the controls, guys.

Volume knobs, tone knob, one switch is the pickup selector, and one switch is a coil split.

In regards to Chris switching over the Kiesel, the endorsement had to have included some sort of cash incentive on top of free or discounted gear, which is typically the case for securing exclusivity deals with an artist (especially artists whom have been known for playing multiple brands in the past). As you all know, it is tough being a professional musician nowadays, and I'm sure that the cash incentive for sales of guitars is far more valuable than just "more gear" that will sit around at home. 

Also, notice that in the more recent months, Strandberg was sending Chris the Korean-made OS Bodens, which are now becoming widely known for their quality control issues and for being made of cheaper materials that do not exactly hold up to the quality expected by the high price tag. Ola with his tight-fisted business tactics probably did not want to cough up a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg (even for an artist) which are also severely overpriced. (Notice that no one owns a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg. Seems like it is OS or bust, which makes me wonder if the Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandbergs are just a ploy to try to sell the OS models by making them look like a better deal than what they really are.) With the switch to Kiesel, Chris now can get free or discounted USA-made semi-custom production line guitars; and despite Kiesel's history of quality control issues in the past (that they tried to sweep under the rug), you cannot deny that their quality 100% will be above the quality of any cheaper Korean factory.

Seems like it was a win-win for Chris. Despite my personal conviction against supporting Kiesel because of their excessive overhyping campaigns and their shady tactics with hiring that Internet jackass Khoury, I really don't blame Chris for switching. He is a musician that is finding ways to survive in the industry nowadays by doing endorsement deals, multiple projects, lessons, instructional DVDs, books, clothing, etc.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 22, 2016)

Darn, i was hoping it was a booster switch.


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## wannabguitarist (Aug 22, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> His Strandberg was trans blue.



I was talking about this one that he was using more recently:





I like the blue a lot more than gold but sparkles are far from classy. The old sig was gorgeous though.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 22, 2016)

The old sig was the one I meant. 

That one's not classy, but still more classy than his Kiesel, though.  Overbearing on gold is never a good thing.


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## TheDandy (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Also, notice that in the more recent months, Strandberg was sending Chris the Korean-made OS Bodens, which are now becoming widely known for their quality control issues and for being made of cheaper materials that do not exactly hold up to the quality expected by the high price tag. Ola with his tight-fisted business tactics probably did not want to cough up a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg (even for an artist) which are also severely overpriced. (Notice that no one owns a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg. Seems like it is OS or bust, which makes me wonder if the Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandbergs are just a ploy to try to sell the OS models by making them look like a better deal than what they really are.) With the switch to Kiesel, Chris now can get free or discounted USA-made semi-custom production line guitars; and despite Kiesel's history of quality control issues in the past (that they tried to sweep under the rug), you cannot deny that their quality 100% will be above the quality of any cheaper Korean factory.



What sorts of OS QC issues are you referring to? I haven't heard those sorts of things about that line. Also plenty of people have bought customs and Boden Js so have them be a ploy to sell OS models seems unlikely. For what it's worth, from both my own experience and accounts of others, Ola seems too honest to refuse to deliver a Swedish or Japanese model to his artists. I'm thinking either Kiesel gave Chris a really good endorsement deal, or maybe he just likes the Vader a lot. We're not really to say until he does. Just my $0.02


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## Splinterhead (Aug 23, 2016)

I'm lucky enough to have a Boden and a Vader. Both are great guitars. I really don't think one is better than the other, just different. In fact very different. Aesthetics are subjective. Don't like gold, don't get it. Boden too much cash? Check out a Vader. I say the headless multiscale market is picking up. Let's enjoy it! I remember when seven string guitars came out...not too much of a choice back then. And multiscale? People would have thought I was talking about fishing.


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## xzacx (Aug 23, 2016)

I have absolutely no problem with an artist going with the brand willing to cut the biggest check. (Especially when it's someone I've never even heard.) In the sports world, the default quote when someone changes brands or teams is always "I had to do what was best for me and my family." 

That said, it's mind-blowing that their first product after changing brands would be called the "Gold Digger." Did no one involved catch the irony? Best case scenario, it was on purpose and a really tacky joke.


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## feraledge (Aug 23, 2016)

Don't like the gold, but while Kiesel can have needlessly bad customer service at times and douchey marketing tactics, they do build and deliver guitars. Something we've seen the smaller brands fail on repeatedly. I have no complaints about my Vader even if the company can make me queasy at times, I'd say that having a Kiesel signature would definitely ensure that the end product a customer gets is much more in line with what the artist is using, if not the exact same thing. As an artist, that would be pretty high priority for me. 
What was surprising to me was that in 2010, Ola had only built 5 guitars.


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## OmegaSlayer (Aug 23, 2016)

Gold Digger...basically a Gold-flaked shovel...


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## CaptainD00M (Aug 23, 2016)

What happened to that meh looking start up that he was supporting Altius or Altus or something?

[edit]
WOW that finish looks cheep a nasty


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## downburst82 (Aug 23, 2016)

CaptainD00M said:


> What happened to that meh looking start up that he was supporting Altius or Altus or something?
> 
> [edit]
> WOW that finish looks cheep a nasty



I wonder about that too, I got the impression he had more of a stake in that company than just doing a few videos for them. Always seemed odd considering the strandberg endorsement. I dont imagine Jeff will allow the same flexibility Ola did?

*edit* I do actually really like that guitar/finish though, I'm a sucker for sparkles!


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Aug 23, 2016)

I'm a sucker for sparkle finishes and the gold looks great but 600 fu_c_king dollars? Is Jeff out of his god damn mind?


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## Casper777 (Aug 23, 2016)

"Kiesel guitars - USA pricing for Asian sub quality"


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## HighGain510 (Aug 23, 2016)

technomancer said:


> WTF are they actual 24k gold flakes in there



 Yeah agreed, personally I love sparkle finishes but $600 for that seems oddly high, especially considering the pricing from folks who do sparkle finishes all the time. I get that it's more of a pain to shoot them and that cleaning the paint guns afterwards is more work, but I don't know that the price tag attached matches that. 

With regard to the whole bashing nonsense, I think folks are going a little overkill honestly. I've owned a US-built, Korean-built and Chinese-built Strandberg and I don't think any of them were leaps and bounds above my multiscale Vader.  I really dig the Boden stuff and still have my OS and Singularity, but my VM7 isn't going anywhere. Folks acting like the guitars are trash are being *quite* a bit overdramatic.  Customer service issues =/= automatic build quality issues. I know in a few cases the issue was a QC problem for some folks, but by and large that is not the case for all. My VM7 was flawless, FWIW. People seem quick to forget/forgive when even M2M builds have quality issues too, but it's not hip to rag on Ola.


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## Zado (Aug 23, 2016)

I hope they're paying him good to play that thing


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## CaptainD00M (Aug 23, 2016)

downburst82 said:


> *edit* I do actually really like that guitar/finish though, I'm a sucker for sparkles!



A man I love Gold Top Les Pauls and Silver Bursts too - hell I even thought that sparkly Silver Burst they did for Justin Hawkins was cool, but some how that finish looks sub par, and I echo everyone else by saying $600 for that?!


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## narad (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Also, notice that in the more recent months, Strandberg was sending Chris the Korean-made OS Bodens, which are now becoming widely known for their quality control issues and for being made of cheaper materials that do not exactly hold up to the quality expected by the high price tag. Ola with his tight-fisted business tactics probably did not want to cough up a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg (even for an artist) which are also severely overpriced. (Notice that no one owns a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg. Seems like it is OS or bust, which makes me wonder if the Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandbergs are just a ploy to try to sell the OS models by making them look like a better deal than what they really are.) With the switch to Kiesel, Chris now can get free or discounted USA-made semi-custom production line guitars; and despite Kiesel's history of quality control issues in the past (that they tried to sweep under the rug), you cannot deny that their quality 100% will be above the quality of any cheaper Korean factory.



This is like conspiracy-theory level imagination.


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## Zalbu (Aug 23, 2016)

Won't surprise me if it's for the money, Chris has never come across as the most genuine guy to me. Remember those guitars he pimped for a few playthrough videos and disappeared as fast as they showed up?


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## CaptainD00M (Aug 23, 2016)

Why has nobody posted this yet 



Because the guitar name&#8230;


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## technomancer (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Also, notice that in the more recent months, Strandberg was sending Chris the Korean-made OS Bodens, which are now becoming widely known for their quality control issues and for being made of cheaper materials that do not exactly hold up to the quality expected by the high price tag. Ola with his tight-fisted business tactics probably did not want to cough up a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg (even for an artist) which are also severely overpriced. (Notice that no one owns a Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandberg. Seems like it is OS or bust, which makes me wonder if the Japanese-made or Swedish-made Strandbergs are just a ploy to try to sell the OS models by making them look like a better deal than what they really are.) With the switch to Kiesel, Chris now can get free or discounted USA-made semi-custom production line guitars; and despite Kiesel's history of quality control issues in the past (that they tried to sweep under the rug), you cannot deny that their quality 100% will be above the quality of any cheaper Korean factory.



Source for any of this? I'm not a Strandberg fanboy or anything and I don't own one but I also don't recall seeing anything about quality control issues on the OS series... even the Chinese ones posted here have been solid according to the owners. I think you're reading way too much into Letchford touring with what were essentially readily available OS models instead of his customs 

Also in all seriousness if you don't stop posting stuff to stir drama over a certain douche who has been fired you are going to get perma'd. We get it, you have a personal axe to grind, but you're not doing it here anymore.


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## schwiz (Aug 23, 2016)

Congrats to Chris on his new endorsement. I'm sure he had his reasons for leaving Standberg, most of which probably won't be apparent to us internet dwellers.


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## bonga (Aug 23, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> Yeah agreed, personally I love sparkle finishes but $600 for that seems oddly high, especially considering the pricing from folks who do sparkle finishes all the time. I get that it's more of a pain to shoot them and that cleaning the paint guns afterwards is more work, but I don't know that the price tag attached matches that.



On one of the recent Facebook live videos that Jeff does, he mentioned that the reason sparkle finishes cost so much that it's new, time consuming and they don't have any orders for it. I do image by the statements made by Jeff that if enough people order one, the price could go down by $100-$200.


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## Casper777 (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Here are the controls, guys.
> 
> Volume knobs, tone knob, one switch is the pickup selector, and one switch is a coil split.
> 
> ...


 
If I didn't suspect you are really serious, this could actually have been funny.... 

PS: I actually own a Swedish Strandberg... I must be part of the conspiracy too!! 


Back on topic, the Vader is not to my taste but goood thing for Chris if he could get a good endorsment deal! And so what if financial considerations are part of the decision? music is their JOB! He has to care about money. When you are offered a new job is the new salary a consideration? I hope it is...


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## bostjan (Aug 23, 2016)

I'd gladly play any of this guy's signature guitars, if one was handed to me. 

To be frank, I don't care at all for the finish, though. It's not the worst I've seen, but it is on the tacky side of what I consider acceptable.

And to upcharge $600 for that finish, well... I guess I'll just say that I like Chris's taste in guitars.

I own neither a Strandy nor a Kiesel. I probably will own neither, but if I didn't have an Oni that was absolutely perfect for me for the past several years, I would be all over whichever Strandy, Vader, or Skervy I could afford.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 23, 2016)

TheDandy said:


> What sorts of OS QC issues are you referring to? I haven't heard those sorts of things about that line. Also plenty of people have bought customs and Boden Js so have them be a ploy to sell OS models seems unlikely. For what it's worth, from both my own experience and accounts of others, Ola seems too honest to refuse to deliver a Swedish or Japanese model to his artists. I'm thinking either Kiesel gave Chris a really good endorsement deal, or maybe he just likes the Vader a lot. We're not really to say until he does. Just my $0.02


The QC issues are out there. But then again, it is made in a Korean factory, so some tiny things (bad frets, sharp fret ends, neck pocket gap, poor wiring, cheap wood, etc.) are to be expected. 

And as far as quality of materials, I have a connection who used to work at the factory, and he told me that Strandberg could charge $1K for an OS and still make a killing.

Oh, and just to clarify, when I say "Swedish-made" Strandberg, I don't mean an Olaberg. I mean a production model guitar built in the new Swedish factory that Ola switched to after he split ways with Washburn/Parker in the USA.


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## leftyguitarjoe (Aug 23, 2016)

The anti-Carvin boners on this site are ridiculous. They make good guitars. They always have. Remember when the DC800's came out and the entire site collective sh!t a brick and fangirl'd like there was no tomorrow?

They're a good company that makes good guitars and they arent afraid to try new stuff. I think Chris made the right call switching to a company that lets him stay headless but can support all of his needs. Who cares if Jeff is a douche?


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## narad (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The QC issues are out there. But then again, it is made in a Korean factory, so some tiny things (bad frets, sharp fret ends, neck pocket gap, poor wiring, cheap wood, etc.) are to be expected.



[citation needed]


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## TheDandy (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The QC issues are out there. But then again, it is made in a Korean factory, so some tiny things (bad frets, sharp fret ends, neck pocket gap, poor wiring, cheap wood, etc.) are to be expected.
> 
> And as far as quality of materials, I have a connection who used to work at the factory, and he told me that Strandberg could charge $1K for an OS and still make a killing.
> 
> Oh, and just to clarify, when I say "Swedish-made" Strandberg, I don't mean an Olaberg. I mean a production model guitar built in the new Swedish factory that Ola switched to after he split ways with Washburn/Parker in the USA.



Won't speak on the QC issues as I don't own on, but a lot of the cost comes from the technology (EndurNeck, hardware, body shape, etc.) which isn't available anywhere else. And not only do many people own Olabergs, but plenty own Swedish customs as well.


----------



## jephjacques (Aug 23, 2016)

I like the gold, hi haters


----------



## Casper777 (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The QC issues are out there. But then again, it is made in a Korean factory, so some tiny things (bad frets, sharp fret ends, neck pocket gap, poor wiring, cheap wood, etc.) are to be expected.
> 
> And as far as quality of materials, I have a connection who used to work at the factory, and he told me that Strandberg could charge $1K for an OS and still make a killing.
> 
> Oh, and just to clarify, when I say "Swedish-made" Strandberg, I don't mean an Olaberg. I mean a production model guitar built in the new Swedish factory that Ola switched to after he split ways with Washburn/Parker in the USA.


 
But are you serious?!?
Do you really think than Asian workers, yes those who manufacture your TVs, PCs and your smartphone can't file a stupid fret end?!? That those who produce some of the most reliable cars in the world (yes more reliable than US ones!) can't solder a 4 conductor pickup!?!!? what is this load of c..p you spread here? 

PS - 2: Yes I own a production Swedish model. They exist for real you know!!


----------



## ArtDecade (Aug 23, 2016)

jephjacques said:


> I like the gold, hi haters



Hi.


----------



## bostjan (Aug 23, 2016)

leftyguitarjoe said:


> The anti-Carvin boners on this site are ridiculous. They make good guitars. They always have. Remember when the DC800's came out and the entire site collective sh!t a brick and fangirl'd like there was no tomorrow?
> 
> They're a good company that makes good guitars and they arent afraid to try new stuff. I think Chris made the right call switching to a company that lets him stay headless but can support all of his needs. Who cares if Jeff is a douche?



Not to mention that when the Vader was announced, the reactions on this site were >80% positive.

I think things turned around when a couple customers here got screwed over by piss poor customer service and then the company reacted to this forum's reaction unprofessionally, but that's just my observation from outside all of this.

I honestly am a little put off by how the company has managed public relations, but I've seen far far worse, and I do like their guitars. 

.strandberg*, on the other hand, from what I can tell, is on the up-and-up.

As for Chris making the decision to move, I think he's smart in doing so, even though I don't understand all of the reasons why, and I think the finish on the Kiesel is distracting in a lot of wrong ways.

I wish all three parties all the best moving forward.


----------



## jephjacques (Aug 23, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Hi.



I miss being able to like posts


----------



## Fred the Shred (Aug 23, 2016)

First off, here's hoping the best for Chris and his new partnership with Kiesel. 

Also, major kudos for gracefully accepting a business decision while acknowledging the artist's past contributions to Ola. It's not just polite - it shows character and what I deem as a very correct posture in light of this sort of thing. 



bostjan said:


> Not to mention that when the Vader was announced, the reactions on this site were >80% positive.
> 
> I think things turned around when a couple customers here got screwed over by piss poor customer service and then the company reacted to this forum's reaction unprofessionally, but that's just my observation from outside all of this.
> 
> ...



Pretty much, yes. Things can easily go overboard when it comes to people's reactions. It's one thing to see poor customer support decisions regarding some stuff going .... up and rightfully pointing that out - if nobody says a thing when you screw up, then it is likely to never be addressed, and it can come back to bite you in the ass as time goes by. What the couple posts I saw with that sort of event happening ended up being was a full-on "Kiesel is God" / "Kiesel is the Devil" debate in which attempting to stick to the subject, namely that specific guitar and proposed solutions, was bound to fail since extrapolations were the key.

Am I a fan of the PR approach Kiesel has chosen to pursue? In many cases, not really. Even with the few and far between guitars that came out subpar, it's most certainly not enough to immediately have a horrible image of the company. Quite the contrary, since it remains some absurd bang for the buck in the US if you choose specs wisely. If they learn from their mistakes as they consolidate their recent change of approach, all parties win, and that's what matters.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 23, 2016)

Casper777 said:


> But are you serious?!?
> Do you really think than Asian workers, yes those who manufacture your TVs, PCs and your smartphone can't file a stupid fret end?!? That those who produce some of the most reliable cars in the world (yes more reliable than US ones!) can't solder a 4 conductor pickup!?!!? what is this load of c..p you spread here?


This literally might be the dumbest comment that I've read on this forum in a very long time. Someone please remove this child from the forum.

You are aware that there are many guitars released under many brands that are made in Asian factories (Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.) and that have suffered from flaws and quality control issues? And you know what? They are documented. Why, I just stumbled upon yet another example yesterday that included not only one but TWO Korean-made Legator guitars that suffered from poor quality control. Clearly someone could not file a fret end...amongst other things.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izZiJmJye2o


----------



## Zinter (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This literally might be the dumbest comment that I've read on this forum in a very long time. Someone please remove this child from the forum.
> 
> You are aware that there are many guitars released under many brands that are made in Asian factories (Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.) and that have suffered from flaws and quality control issues? And you know what? They are documented. Why, I just stumbled upon yet another example yesterday that included not only one but TWO Korean-made Legator guitars that suffered from poor quality control. Clearly someone could not file a fret end...amongst other things.
> 
> Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izZiJmJye2o



First off, chillout dude. Can we keep this civil?

Second, you realize there are quality levels within those factories? Or did your insider friend not know that and was in shipping? Did you know Indonesia is not in Korea? Neither is China. A poor comparison.

Third, you were asked to provide evidence of the many faulty OS series you've seen and decided to link to a Legator guitar...?


----------



## Warg Master (Aug 23, 2016)

jephjacques said:


> I miss being able to like posts



me too:



jephjacques said:


> I like the gold, hi haters


----------



## Zado (Aug 23, 2016)

jephjacques said:


> I like the gold, hi haters



I like gold too, just not in that thing


----------



## ArtDecade (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This literally might be the dumbest comment that I've read on this forum in a very long time. Someone please remove this child from the forum.



Actually... _*remove this child from the forum*_ may be the dumbest comment I've read on this forum in a very long time. 



Emperor Guillotine said:


> You are aware that there are many guitars released under many brands that are made in Asian factories (Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.) and that have suffered from flaws and quality control issues?



It depends on the builder - not country of origin. Gibson can't make a good guitar to save their life in the States and the difference between Mexican and American Fenders is minimal nowadays. A sharp fret end on a Korean made guitar is anecdotal and certainly doesn't mean we should condemn every guitar that is produced as a result.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 23, 2016)

Zinter said:


> First off, chillout dude. Can we keep this civil?
> 
> Second, you realize there are quality levels within those factories? Or did your insider friend not know that and was in shipping? Did you know Indonesia is not in Korea? Neither is China. A poor comparison.
> 
> Third, you were asked to provide evidence of the many faulty OS series you've seen and decided to link to a Legator guitar...?


I am being civil. Casper777 seems to be having a temper tantrum up there. ^

You sound like you need to look at a map. Do you even have any idea what you're talking about? Yes, I am well aware that Indonesia is not in Korea. Neither is China. All are separate countries in Asia. And we are discussing guitars made in Asian factories here.

And I was providing a link to the Legator thing to counter Casper777's comment that Asian guitars are superior and are flawless. Read, Zinter. The Legator was just because it popped into my head and I had the link sitting in my browser's history. It will take me a bit to dig up the stuff regarding customers who have received flawed Korean-made OS models.



technomancer said:


> Source for any of this? I'm not a Strandberg fanboy or anything and I don't own one but I also don't recall seeing anything about quality control issues on the OS series... even the Chinese ones posted here have been solid according to the owners.


Coming up soon, Mike.



technomancer said:


> I think you're reading way too much into Letchford touring with what were essentially readily available OS models instead of his customs


Good point. But has Chris played a show with an OS? Links, vids, pics?



ArtDecade said:


> A sharp fret end on a Korean made guitar is anecdotal and certainly doesn't mean we should condemn every guitar that is produced as a result.


And that is exactly why I said *this* in a previous comment...



Emperor Guillotine said:


> But then again, it is made in a Korean factory, so some tiny things (bad frets, sharp fret ends, neck pocket gap, poor wiring, cheap wood, etc.) are to be expected.


----------



## Zinter (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I am being civil. Casper777 seems to be having a temper tantrum up there. ^
> 
> You sound like you need to look at a map. Do you even have any idea what you're talking about? Yes, I am well aware that Indonesia is not in Korea. Neither is China. All are separate countries in Asia. And we are discussing guitars made in Asian factories here.
> 
> ...




The point is that all Asian factories are *not* the same. Btw I'm tapping out of this convo so I won't respond, you're just rude and bitter.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred (Aug 23, 2016)

Looks in thread, looks at ugly ass guitar = leaves thread...


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 23, 2016)

Zinter said:


> The point is that all Asian factories are *not* the same. Btw I'm tapping out of this convo so I won't respond, you're just rude and bitter.


And you're just blatantly misinterpreting my comments.


----------



## ArtDecade (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> And that is exactly why I said *this* in a previous comment...



You wrote "ARE TO BE EXPECTED" and the point is that I disagree. Sharp fret ends can happen, but they are not to be expected simply because the factory is in Asia. I have plenty of import guitars are quite good in regards to fretwork.


----------



## bostjan (Aug 23, 2016)

Found this Venn diagram on the 'net


----------



## Zinter (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> And you're just blatantly misinterpreting my comments.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> Actually... _*remove this child from the forum*_ may be the dumbest comment I've read on this forum in a very long time.



*I'm actually about to remove a half dozen children from this forum if you don't all drop it RIGHT NOW.*

Everyone reset and drop the name calling or every person who does it is getting a month or worse.


----------



## jephjacques (Aug 23, 2016)

ArtDecade said:


> It depends on the builder - not country of origin. Gibson can't make a good guitar to save their life in the States and the difference between Mexican and American Fenders is minimal nowadays. A sharp fret end on a Korean made guitar is anecdotal and certainly doesn't mean we should condemn every guitar that is produced as a result.



You're countering anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence. I don't have a dog in this fight but you're not doing yourself any favors.


----------



## narad (Aug 23, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Found this Venn diagram on the 'net







jephjacques said:


> You're countering anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence. I don't have a dog in this fight but you're not doing yourself any favors.



Well it does support the notion that we shouldn't be making any sweeping generalizations based on a guitar's country of origin...


----------



## jemfloral (Aug 23, 2016)

marcwormjim said:


> The most interesting detail, for me, is Letchford dropping EMG for SD before signing with a company that generally insists they make signature pups in-house, as well. I know Becker's circumstances has him as an exception, but I'm curious to see if Kiesel holds off on releasing a signature Vader with the stupid pacman inlay until Letchford has also signed off on a set of signature Lithiums.



The video Kiesel/Jeff had on their facebook page discusses the pickups. Sounds like Kiesel provided the bobbins/materials and Seymour Duncan put everything together and wound them. Seems like they're going to try to offer this as an option going forward on Chris' signature.



Jonathan20022 said:


> I know Ola doesn't really like working with cocobolo so that could have been a decision for the move as well. When I needed a neck rebuild on my Koaberg last year I was offered a different choice of neck wood since the operations had moved from Washburn to the Sweden Shop.



Strandberg switched from cocobolo to caribbean rosewood on the CL7's a year or so ago when they moved the production to Sweden. I believe the switch is because Ola has an allergy to cocobolo. Chris's _original_ blue CL7 actually has a rosewood neck, so I don't think that this is the issue, particularly given that Carvin gave a matte painted finish to Gold Digger. Doesn't seem like the neck wood choice is too much of an issue to Chris, but hey, just my opinion. 

Anyway, congrats to Chris for new endorsement, and further respect to Ola for handling it in an absolutely top class manner: kindness and thanks for the time they've worked together. It seems the only bad thing to come out of this was that terrible gold finish, haha!


----------



## ArtDecade (Aug 23, 2016)

jephjacques said:


> You're countering anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence. I don't have a dog in this fight but you're not doing yourself any favors.



I didn't think it was worth while going into my background in musical instrument sales and management, because that was 15 years ago. That said, I sold a lot of import guitars with fine fretwork.


----------



## Wildebeest (Aug 23, 2016)

The new Kiesel looks awesome. It also matches his skin and hair.


----------



## dan0151 (Aug 23, 2016)

jemfloral said:


> The video Kiesel/Jeff had on their facebook page discusses the pickups. Sounds like Kiesel provided the bobbins/materials and Seymour Duncan put everything together and wound them. Seems like they're going to try to offer this as an option going forward on Chris' signature.



Someone asked him on Facebook what Duncan's in his Vader, his response "sentient/Pegasus".


----------



## CaptainD00M (Aug 23, 2016)

jephjacques said:


> I miss being able to like posts



Like




Casper777 said:


> PS: I actually own a Swedish Strandberg... I must be part of the conspiracy too!!



Clearly you are the ring leader who pulls Ola's strings.


----------



## Axayacatl (Aug 23, 2016)

Dawn of the Shred said:


> Looks in thread, looks at ugly ass guitar that is not a KK signature = leaves thread...



Don't mind me 

Just editing your post for 100% honesty. 

Carry on with the fighting, everybody.


----------



## SDMFVan (Aug 23, 2016)

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I thought it was interesting that people are talking like QC issues on the OS line are a myth considering I just read this post on the official Strandberg thread yesterday: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4634133&postcount=1541


----------



## therhodeo (Aug 23, 2016)

I really want to like Kiesel as a builder but their attitude just rubs me wrong. Someone mentioned in a comment on a Vader pic that Strandberg was offering a 8 string trem now and the response from Kiesel's facebook bro was about how Jeff demands perfection and if he ever did decide to put out an 8 string trem it would be perfect and not like the other guys.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred (Aug 23, 2016)

Axayacatl said:


> Don't mind me
> 
> Just editing your post for 100% honesty.
> 
> Carry on with the fighting, everybody.



Not worth it!!


----------



## Dawn of the Shred (Aug 23, 2016)

So i take it Jason and Jeff aren't buddies


----------



## narad (Aug 23, 2016)

SDMFVan said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I thought it was interesting that people are talking like QC issues on the OS line are a myth considering I just read this post on the official Strandberg thread yesterday: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4634133&postcount=1541



Yea, but that is literally the first post to pop up on my radar talking about QC errors there, and is still a small superficial thing. No production company is putting out flawless instruments, and most custom shops aren't either (and I'm sure the ones that do have a reputation of consistency still have a dud here or there). 

So in short, one incident doesn't make it the QC crisis this guy's talking about. I generally believe Kiesel makes quality guitars, but if you press me to come up with QC posts about those guitars it will be the easiest thing in the world to dig those up too. He doesn't seem to have such a vendetta against Kiesel though.


----------



## russmuller (Aug 23, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I am being civil. Casper777 seems to be having a temper tantrum up there. ^



Dude, you called him a child and asked for him to be removed. Maybe he misinterpreted your argument (and I did as well, since I believed you were making a statement that country of origin determines quality), but that's no reason to respond that way.


----------



## robski92 (Aug 23, 2016)

> So i take it Jason and Jeff aren't buddies



Right!? That little blurb did not go well for Jason at all lol. I don't think i've ever seen a DC800 in anything he's posted before though, and he posts a lot on social media.


----------



## russmuller (Aug 23, 2016)

robski92 said:


> Right!? That little blurb did not go well for Jason at all lol. I don't think i've ever seen a DC800 in anything he's posted before though, and he posts a lot on social media.



Yeah, that turned into quite the sheet show. I saw people piling on with calling him a thief and that he has no integrity, etc... Granted, if he has Jeff's guitar and Jeff wants it back, then he should give it back. But that's a red herring in the discussion of endorsement deals, which was the thing Jason was trying to talk about. It rubbed me the wrong way to see a business leader calling someone out publicly like that, but it is what it is. I hope Jeff gets his guitar back soon.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 23, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Found this Venn diagram on the 'net


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2016)

russmuller said:


> Dude, you called him a child and asked for him to be removed. Maybe he misinterpreted your argument (and I did as well, since I believed you were making a statement that country of origin determines quality), but that's no reason to respond that way.





Randy said:


> *I'm actually about to remove a half dozen children from this forum if you don't all drop it RIGHT NOW.*
> 
> Everyone reset and drop the name calling or every person who does it is getting a month or worse.



LEARN TO READ.

One more jab and the threads getting a lock and everyone who's been involved is getting banned, and the instigator is gone for even longer.


----------



## DerBomber (Aug 23, 2016)

Casper777 said:


> "Kiesel guitars - USA pricing for Asian sub quality"



I think that the 600$ upcharge for the gold sparkle finish is a joke, but calling Kiesel "Asian sub quality" is ridiculous.


----------



## extendedsolo (Aug 23, 2016)

xCaptainx said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is just wonderful. I can't tell if Jeff is a guy who won't put up with other people's BS and calls them out on it or if he's just an A-hole. 

Also, who is Jason Richardson?


----------



## MistaSnowman (Aug 23, 2016)

extendedsolo said:


> Also, who is Jason Richardson?


 
I believe this 'Jason Richardson' is the guitarist for Chelsea Grin.


----------



## narad (Aug 23, 2016)

extendedsolo said:


> Also, who is Jason Richardson?



The guy who's getting an EBMM sig.


----------



## jephjacques (Aug 23, 2016)

extendedsolo said:


> I can't tell if Jeff is a guy who won't put up with other people's BS and calls them out on it or if he's just an A-hole.



Could be both


----------



## cip 123 (Aug 23, 2016)

Anyone got a link to the Richardson thing?


----------



## SnowfaLL (Aug 23, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> Yeah agreed, personally I love sparkle finishes but $600 for that seems oddly high, especially considering the pricing from folks who do sparkle finishes all the time. I get that it's more of a pain to shoot them and that cleaning the paint guns afterwards is more work, but I don't know that the price tag attached matches that.
> 
> With regard to the whole bashing nonsense, I think folks are going a little overkill honestly. I've owned a US-built, Korean-built and Chinese-built Strandberg and I don't think any of them were leaps and bounds above my multiscale Vader.  I really dig the Boden stuff and still have my OS and Singularity, but my VM7 isn't going anywhere. Folks acting like the guitars are trash are being *quite* a bit overdramatic.  Customer service issues =/= automatic build quality issues. I know in a few cases the issue was a QC problem for some folks, but by and large that is not the case for all. My VM7 was flawless, FWIW. People seem quick to forget/forgive when even M2M builds have quality issues too, but it's not hip to rag on Ola.



I'm glad to hear you say that.. cause it is a bit ridiculous how much Kiesel hate is going on here - and Highgain510 being someone that the masses of people follow, will hopefully help curve that hate. It's just overblown. And I'm saying that as someone whos sold off a ton of Kiesels, will probably not buy another going forward (I'm all in on the Aristides game now, although could change once mine is completed depending if the hype is real).

All companies have issues, it may not be apparent on the outside but maybe Chris actually *gasps* LIKES his Vader more than his Strandbergs?? I mean, if he just wanted the money, there is Gibson, ESP, Jackson, etc who would pay much more than Kiesel would to their artists.


----------



## extendedsolo (Aug 23, 2016)

narad said:


> The guy who's getting an EBMM sig.



Not helpful since St Vincent also got one and there are loads of people that don't know her.



cip 123 said:


> Anyone got a link to the Richardson thing?



It was taken down.


also googled him and I'll have to check out his stuff.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 23, 2016)

cip 123 said:


> Anyone got a link to the Richardson thing?


Screenshot above. 

Jason deleted the post within a few minutes after Jeff's comment.



russmuller said:


> It rubbed me the wrong way to see a business leader calling someone out publicly like that, but it is what it is. I hope Jeff gets his guitar back soon.


This. ^ But based on Jeff's comment, he has tried to deal with this privately by asking Jason multiple times to return the guitar.


----------



## MistaSnowman (Aug 23, 2016)

narad said:


> The guy who's getting an EBMM sig.



That 'Jason Richardson' is the guitarist for All Shall Perish; not to be confused with the Chelsea Grin guitarist of the same name, who is the point the deleted FB post.


----------



## Fathand (Aug 23, 2016)

Couple of points/IMOs:

1. I feel old - everytime I read "*** guitarist gets endorsed by ***" - I usually go "Who?" 

2. I kinda like the gold finish, and I hope he's happy with his new guitar and endorsement. 

3. Kiesel guitars (and more or less Jeff himself) is the new occult/satanic craze (from the 70s) on these forums. Everytime they come up people go bonkers and run amok to different directions.  

Give them a break for a while. I'd like to see how many of you would go from a young random company dude to a youtube & social media marketing wizard / slick guitar pimping business man within a couple of years, without any mistakes or growing pains. Especially in this public enviroment that crucifies you faster for mistakes than the Spanish inquisition (which nobody expects).


----------



## dmlinger (Aug 23, 2016)

MistaSnowman said:


> That 'Jason Richardson' is the guitarist for All Shall Perish; not to be confused with the Chelsea Grin guitarist of the same name, who is the point the deleted FB post.



Same person


----------



## MistaSnowman (Aug 23, 2016)

dmlinger said:


> Same person



Thank you for the clarification . I learned something new today!

(Note to self: Best to look at pics more closely before commenting!)


----------



## cip 123 (Aug 23, 2016)

MistaSnowman said:


> That 'Jason Richardson' is the guitarist for All Shall Perish; not to be confused with the Chelsea Grin guitarist of the same name, who is the point the deleted FB post.



Jason played for All Shall Perish while still in high school. Also Born of Osiris (Lee from them has a sig Carvin) and Jason also played for Chelsea Grin. He just released a crazy solo album with guests from Nick Johnston, Rick Graham, Spencer and Mark from Periphery and Lukas from Veil of Maya.

Jason is a crazy guitarist. Regardless if he has or had not held on to Jeffs guitar for a little too long.

Jason used an 8 string on his album and opted to borrow one of Misha Mansoor's Jacksons. So I guess he didn't get on with the DC800.


----------



## MetalThrasher (Aug 23, 2016)

Anyone call and ask how much these are going for? I'm curious about the price. I could imagine it's in the high 2 close to 3 k range.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2016)

MetalThrasher said:


> Anyone call and ask how much these are going for? I'm curious about the price. I could imagine it's in the high 2 close to 3 k range.



Kiesel multiscale base price is $1400, plus $600 (according to Techno) for the gold paintjob and some kind of upcharge for gold hardware (hipshot adds $30 for gold hardware). The rest of the features seems like they wouldn't warrant much upcharge (flamed maple board might be a little but likely no really exotic body woods since it's solid finish, etc.). I'd say between $2200 and $2500 would be my estimate?


----------



## Spicypickles (Aug 23, 2016)

Custom wound pups and the artist cut likely adds to that.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2016)

Spicypickles said:


> Custom wound pups and the artist cut likely adds to that.



Speaking of which, I'm seeing SDs in the pic. Do they offer third party pickups in any of their other builds, are we assuming this is an exception or are we assuming they're just for his personal build?


----------



## jephjacques (Aug 23, 2016)

extendedsolo said:


> Not helpful since St Vincent also got one and there are loads of people that don't know her.



I'd bet money more people know who St. Vincent is than just about anybody on EBMM's roster, up to and including Petrucci. She's a Big Deal these days.


----------



## bostjan (Aug 23, 2016)

Randy said:


> Speaking of which, I'm seeing SDs in the pic. Do they offer third party pickups in any of their other builds, are we assuming this is an exception or are we assuming they're just for his personal build?





jemfloral said:


> The video Kiesel/Jeff had on their facebook page discusses the pickups. Sounds like Kiesel provided the bobbins/materials and Seymour Duncan put everything together and wound them. Seems like they're going to try to offer this as an option going forward on Chris' signature.



I'm guessing no, but maybe this will become something in the not-to-near future.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Aug 23, 2016)

Its kind of depressing to see across social media this is getting so much more attention than his music gets. He was with Strandberg for years, its not like he spec'd out some models and jumped ship after a few months like so many other guys have done. 



Randy said:


> Speaking of which, I'm seeing SDs in the pic. Do they offer third party pickups in any of their other builds, are we assuming this is an exception or are we assuming they're just for his personal build?



The Becker sig has Duncans. 

Also Jeff said this which is good for anyone who doesn't like Lithiums. 


> These are my parts wound by Seymour Duncan - we are talking about having Duncan as an option for the multiscale guitars since you can't exactly just swap pickups on a multiscale


----------



## russmuller (Aug 23, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Also Jeff said this which is good for anyone who doesn't like Lithiums.
> 
> "These are my parts wound by Seymour Duncan - we are talking about having Duncan as an option for the multiscale guitars since you can't exactly just swap pickups on a multiscale"



For the love of God, if I can get a VM7 with a multiscale Alpha/Omega set from Seymour Duncan, I might just have to sell a kidney or something.


----------



## leftyguitarjoe (Aug 23, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Its kind of depressing to see across social media this is getting so much more attention than his music gets..



Chris is a great guitarist but his band is pretty boring. I'm way more interested in his happenings than those of his band.


----------



## Mathemagician (Aug 23, 2016)

jephjacques said:


> I'd bet money more people know who St. Vincent is than just about anybody on EBMM's roster, up to and including Petrucci. She's a Big Deal these days.



Quoted again for emphasis. Since I can't like it. "Metal" heads hate it. But popular acts are popular for a reason, they sell products. And from what I've seen in ads, several other acts have picked up the St. Vincent sig.

On topic, dude, Duncan's would be a great option. I wonder if SD would be ok doing ANY pickup, or just a select few for Kiesel.


----------



## narad (Aug 24, 2016)

Mathemagician said:


> Quoted again for emphasis. Since I can't like it. "Metal" heads hate it. But popular acts are popular for a reason, they sell products. And from what I've seen in ads, several other acts have picked up the St. Vincent sig.



Worth considering that while St. Vincent is far more popular, these stats are much, much better for Petrucci:
% of St. Vincent fans that play guitar
% of Dream Theater fans that play guitar


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## extendedsolo (Aug 24, 2016)

narad said:


> Worth considering that while St. Vincent is far more popular, these stats are much, much better for Petrucci:
> % of St. Vincent fans that play guitar
> % of Dream Theater fans that play guitar



I think that the Petrucci models are used also by people that aren't DT fans though. The guy in Zac Brown Band plays one for god's sake. It's just a great guitar suited for several styles. I think the St Vincent guitar is more for one style, but I can still see it being used by other bands since it's cool looking and i'm guessing it sounds good.


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## CaptainD00M (Aug 24, 2016)

extendedsolo said:


> I think the St Vincent guitar is more for one style, but I can still see it being used by other bands since it's cool looking and i'm guessing it sounds good.



How is it only for one style? It has 6 strings, frets and pickups with a trem - you could do any number of styles on that.

If you'd said it was suited to women more than men I would have agreed, because she specifically designed it like that (which is cool MOAR female guitarists please).

But I've honestly NEVER come across a regular 6 string or 7 string guitar that was only for one style, I mean hell I've seen a guy rip great blues on a beat up BC Rich Warlock from the 80's for one example.


----------



## Malkav (Aug 24, 2016)

As someone who works for an import company that brings in MusicMan I can definitely say in our territory and most likely internationally John Petrucci > St Vincent, and I think realistically his models outsell all their others by quite a bit, that being said she is most likely more popular than the majority of their other artists.


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## Demiurge (Aug 24, 2016)

I saw Steve Lukather playing with Ringo Starr a couple months ago. He played a St. Vincent model for at least one song and it looked & sounded fine. I'm sure EBMM send him one to mess around with but all told it's not a girlie guitar.

Anyway, I don't see the controversy in this thread. Since when are endorsements a "mating for life" kind of deal? Lord knows that any guitarist is fickle enough for his tastes and needs to change over the years but few have enough clout to have the company itself bend to their will. Also, sometimes, money.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Aug 25, 2016)

Demiurge said:


> I saw Steve Lukather playing with Ringo Starr a couple months ago. He played a St. Vincent model for at least one song and it looked & sounded fine. I'm sure EBMM send him one to mess around with but all told it's not a girlie guitar.



Omar Rodriguez-Lopez has also been using a St Vincent model as well. He recently made the switch from Ibanez to EBMM and also uses lefty Albert Lee models.


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## CaptainD00M (Aug 25, 2016)

Demiurge said:


> Anyway, I don't see the controversy in this thread. Since when are endorsements a "mating for life" kind of deal? Lord knows that any guitarist is fickle enough for his tastes and needs to change over the years but few have enough clout to have the company itself bend to their will. Also, sometimes, money.



Thats what I don't get - almost every time someone jumps ship there is this whole thread that has a veil of controversy at some point. Well usually with guys who are ss.org legends.

Then there are those people who get up in arms when you point out money is a factor and in some case a significant one - its okay dudes, your artist hasn't lost musical integrity, he needs to eat too bra.

I'm glad some people here are pointing out that the JPM models are a significant breadwinner for EBMM - I've been told I was a conspiracy theorist for point out that having so many JPM models available was a sound economic move on both their parts 

Also this thread has gotten pretty badly off topic


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## VFB1210 (Aug 25, 2016)

Good for him, and good on Ola for being so chill about the situation. Gotta say that I think I'd still prefer the Strandberg though. Unfortunately I've never had a chance to play a Strandy or a Vader, but something about the Vader's hardware just screams "CHEAP!" to me, even if it is likely to be of just as good quality as the Strandberg hardware. That and the Strandberg has a thigh cutout for playing more comfortably in the classical position, which really appeals to me personally. (Because surprise surprise, I play in the classical position.) A cutout seems like it would be much more comfortable than a second strap button.

That, combined with the fact that a similarly outfitted Vader costs only ~2% less than a Boden OS7, (see pic for proof) basically closes the case for me: if I have $2k to spend on a headless 7, I'll just drop the extra $50 for what is ostensibly the real McCoy and go for a Strandberg. Literally the ONLY downside to it is that it has soapbar routs instead of passive routs, which means that an aftermarket set of my preferred pickups (SD Sentient+Pegasus) would cost a little more for the appropriate version. Still worth it to deal with a more amicable fellow like Ola rather than someone whose personality really works my nerves.


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## technomancer (Aug 25, 2016)

VFB1210 said:


> Unfortunately I've never had a chance to play a Strandy or a Vader, but something about the Vader's hardware just screams "CHEAP!" to me, even if it is likely to be of just as good quality as the Strandberg hardware.



I realize this is completely subjective, but don't get why Hipshot hardware would scream cheap to you  I have yet to use any of their products that weren't incredibly solid 



VFB1210 said:


> if I have $2k to spend on a headless 7, I'll just drop the extra $50 for what is ostensibly the real McCoy and go for a Strandberg.



Huh? Ola has only been in business for a couple of years and various people have been building headless guitars for ages so what exactly makes Strandberg "the real McCoy"? If anything in the electric headless world that would be a Steinberger and for an ergonomic would probably be Klein. Several other guys have also been doing the ergonomic headless thing MUCH longer than Ola.

Both companies build good guitars but the amount of spin for both brands has gotten a bit ridiculous. Strandberg got the right artists early on and is doing something different from a lot of other companies and still have some impressive players so they have become incredibly hyped up. Kiesel got some initial positive hype going then hired the wrong guy and had some customer service blunders and suddenly everyone hates them and loves to bash them. It's reached the point where it borders on the ridiculous.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 25, 2016)

VFB1210 said:


> Unfortunately I've never had a chance to play a Strandy or a Vader, but something about the Vader's hardware just screams "CHEAP!" to me, even if it is likely to be of just as good quality as the Strandberg hardware.
> 
> That, combined with the fact that a similarly outfitted Vader costs only ~2% less than a Boden OS7, (see pic for proof) basically closes the case for me: if I have $2k to spend on a headless 7, I'll just drop the extra $50 for what is ostensibly the real McCoy and go for a Strandberg. Literally the ONLY downside to it is that it has soapbar routs instead of passive routs, which means that an aftermarket set of my preferred pickups (SD Sentient+Pegasus) would cost a little more for the appropriate version. Still worth it to deal with a more amicable fellow like Ola rather than someone whose personality really works my nerves.




So basically you confirm you've never played either, but one set of hardware just "seems" cheaper to you?  Based on what, exactly? I currently own both, I feel personally that Hipshot makes some killer hardware and their headless stuff is no exception. The bridge unit holds tune quite well and, contrary to my Strandbergs, the tuner barrels are VERY smooth and require less effort to tune up and down. Even after loosening up a bit with hex wrenches, my Strandberg tuners are still way stiffer and more difficult to turn on the thicker strings, which is not a plus for me.  

Little fun fact: I had the original Boden EGS Rev 4 hardware on my OS before Ola released the Rev 5 shortly thereafter. I sent over video of the saddle rattling issue on the thicker wound strings that plagued a few other early OS owners as well. Even then, I still had to wait for MONTHS before Ola would send replacement saddles. Obviously I appreciate that he made good on the warranty fix in the end because the rattling made playing the guitar less-than-enjoyable, but it took multiple emails over many months before I could get it resolved, so when I see the rampant fanboy praise pushing in one direction stating customer service is the reason for all the venom while slamming someone else for the same thing, it tends to rub me the wrong way. I love Ola's design and think the Boden is a wonderful guitar, but I feel like some folks idolize and demonize people without having enough information to make a full judgement. 



technomancer said:


> I realize this is completely subjective, but don't get why Hipshot hardware would scream cheap to you  I have yet to use any of their products that weren't incredibly solid



Agree 100%. Never had issues with the Hipshot hardware I've owned, including the hardware used on the Vader. The tuner barrels are smooth as hell on both of my Vaders which is lovely, I appreciate not having to go get out my set of hex wrenches every time I have to tune my guitar. 


I'll also throw it out there just to be clear, I'm not endorsed by either company nor do I have any business or personal relationships with either company. I've bought all my guitars from both Strandberg and Kiesel myself, so my opinions are based solely on my own experiences with both companies and their instruments, and I've had good and bad with both.  I refuse to dogpile based solely on it being the popular thing to do, folks are taking news about an endorsement change for an artist and using it to stir up the hate train again and I think it's sad.


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## VFB1210 (Aug 25, 2016)

technomancer said:


> I realize this is completely subjective, but don't get why Hipshot hardware would scream cheap to you  I have yet to use any of their products that weren't incredibly solid


How dumb of me, somehow I let myself forget that the Vader does indeed have Hipshot hardware rather than some homebrew solution which I let myself think it had. That was really dumb and I retract that statement. 




technomancer said:


> Huh? Ola has only been in business for a couple of years and various people have been building headless guitars for ages so what exactly makes Strandberg "the real McCoy"? If anything in the electric headless world that would be a Steinberger and for an ergonomic would probably be Klein. Several other guys have also been doing the ergonomic headless thing MUCH longer than Ola.



I never thought or meant to imply that Strandberg was the first or only builder to ever do the headless thing, but you can't deny that the most recent trend in headless ERGs was kicked off by Strandberg, which is more what the "real McCoy" phrase was referencing.



technomancer said:


> Both companies build good guitars but the amount of spin for both brands has gotten a bit ridiculous. Strandberg got the right artists early on and is doing something different from a lot of other companies and still have some impressive players so they have become incredibly hyped up. Kiesel got some initial positive hype going then hired the wrong guy and had some customer service blunders and suddenly everyone hates them and loves to bash them. It's reached the point where it borders on the ridiculous.



Good points here, I won't deny that Standberg got lucky in getting their guitars in the hands of some really big names early on which really helped get them out there. I'm not trying to idolize or demonize either company; if someone handed me a free Vader I'd just as quickly do cartwheels around the room as if someone handed me a free Strandberg. I'm just stating my opinion that all other things being equal, (which I take to be reasonably true in the Vader vs. Boden argument) I'm more inclined to support and give my money to the individual I like more. Something about Jeff as an individual (completely divorced from the quality of his guitars) rubs me the wrong way, the same is not the case for Ola. If Jeff made a product that was just flat out better, then it wouldn't matter if Ola were my best friend, I'd opt for the better product. But given that both are arguably of the same quality and have much the same features, I'm forced to make my decision based on which individual and brand I would prefer to support and see succeed. Maybe some people might find that silly, but I stand by my decision.

Do keep in mind that I'm not saying I'd NEVER buy a Kiesel ever, just that I'd be more likely to choose a Boden over a Vader than vice versa.



HighGain510 said:


> So basically you confirm you've never played either, but one set of hardware just "seems" cheaper to you?


Yeah, like I said above, somehow I was operating under the assumption that the bridge was a homebrew solution rather than a Hipshot designed system. Don't really know how I got that in my head.

Although as far as never having had the pleasure to play one of them... You can't exactly say that these are the kinds of guitar you can just go down to your LMS and demo.


----------



## nistley (Aug 25, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> So basically you confirm you've never played either, but one set of hardware just "seems" cheaper to you?  Based on what, exactly?



It looks blocky and heavy because of the flat rectangular surfaces. It sounds like it's more functional, based on your experience, and I've only used the Strandbergs, but obviously aesthetics matter.



VFB1210 said:


> Yeah, like I said above, somehow I was operating under the assumption that the bridge was a homebrew solution rather than a Hipshot designed system. Don't really know how I got that in my head.



Because it looks that way. As opposed to say, strandy or mera hardware:
http://padalka-guitars.com/portfolio-items/neptune-77/


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## schwiz (Aug 25, 2016)

Randy said:


> Speaking of which, I'm seeing SDs in the pic. Do they offer third party pickups in any of their other builds, are we assuming this is an exception or are we assuming they're just for his personal build?



You can send Kiesel any set of pickups that you want installed on your build and they will put them in for you. Now, with that said, who's got a replacement set with the exact specs of the slant of the multi-scale? Probably no one unless you have a custom set made. Maybe Chris had SD make him a custom set?


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## schwiz (Aug 25, 2016)

technomancer said:


> I realize this is completely subjective, but d
> Both companies build good guitars but the amount of spin for both brands has gotten a bit ridiculous. Strandberg got the right artists early on and is doing something different from a lot of other companies and still have some impressive players so they have become incredibly hyped up. Kiesel got some initial positive hype going then hired the wrong guy and had some customer service blunders and suddenly everyone hates them and loves to bash them. It's reached the point where it borders on the ridiculous.



This.


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## xwmucradiox (Aug 25, 2016)

technomancer said:


> WTF are they actual 24k gold flakes in there



Its a "we dont want to spray this finish at all" upcharge.


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## narad (Aug 25, 2016)

Seconded -- it's a pretty terrible aesthetic design to my eyes and it sits so high I can't imagine how I could possibly find it comfortable. That said, is it easier to use than the strandberg bridge? Honestly, it'd be hard for it not to be.


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## robski92 (Aug 25, 2016)

> Maybe Chris had SD make him a custom set?



I believe Jeff said that all the parts (bobbins, etc.) are theirs and then they had SD wind them for him.


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## Randy (Aug 25, 2016)

technomancer said:


> ...*then hired the wrong guy* and had some customer service blunders and suddenly everyone hates them and loves to bash them. It's reached the point where it borders on the ridiculous.



Bolded for emphasis, because it's the gift that keeps on giving.

I'm in full agreement and I've even bought a Carvin (albeit used) since all the big tumult, HOWEVER, you can't keep putting that stuff in the past when they keep repeating those mistakes. Zach stirring up crap by pointing Jeff to the Jason Richardson post, and then screenshoting the response to post all over social media is totally in the spirit of the kinda things that've earned them the negative PR. 

If they just stuck to making their guitars and doing business like normal, they'd be fine but they keep fueling the hate.


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## Randy (Aug 25, 2016)

robski92 said:


> I believe Jeff said that all the parts (bobbins, etc.) are theirs and then they had SD wind them for him.



Which is kinda odd because the bobbin says "Seymour Duncan" on it? But yeah, I'm assuming by "all the parts" the main emphasis is on the baseplates, since those have to be exact to the angle of the fan.

My main question was if all the CL signature models are going to be wound by SD or if that was just for the prototype, and the related question was if third-party pickups direct from Carvin was going to be a new option.


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## technomancer (Aug 25, 2016)

narad said:


> Seconded -- it's a pretty terrible aesthetic design to my eyes and it sits so high I can't imagine how I could possibly find it comfortable. That said, is it easier to use than the strandberg bridge? Honestly, it'd be hard for it not to be.



Having actually played one if you don't have problems with a regular Hipshot you shouldn't have problem with the headless bridge from a functionality / comfort standpoint  Aesthetics are completely subjective so not really worth arguing.



Randy said:


> Bolded for emphasis, because it's the gift that keeps on giving.
> 
> I'm in full agreement and I've even bought a Carvin (albeit used) since all the big tumult, HOWEVER, you can't keep putting that stuff in the past when they keep repeating those mistakes. Zach stirring up crap by pointing Jeff to the Jason Richardson post, and then screenshoting the response to post all over social media is totally in the spirit of the kinda things that've earned them the negative PR.
> 
> If they just stuck to making their guitars and doing business like normal, they'd be fine but they keep fueling the hate.



Well he doesn't work there anymore anyways


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 25, 2016)

WOW! I think Jeff has lost his mind. I emailed them about the price for his V7 and I was shocked by the price they told me. I don't want to post the price because maybe its worth it to others but for me no. I'm a Carvin fan as I have had a couple of their guitars but in the past year the prices to me have just gotten out of control.


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## VFB1210 (Aug 25, 2016)

I'd actually be interested to know. Is it comparable to the Boden CL7? ($2200-$2300)


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## The 1 (Aug 25, 2016)

Sounds like it would be more, my guess would be closer to 3000+. I think standard vaders come out to around 2000, +600 for the finish, +???upcharge for being a sig.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 25, 2016)

I can't imagine it being that much higher, even the sigs like the LPM are just a few hundred more than a DC series with similar specs.

If anything, you might as well just spec out a VM7 and add the finish onto it, should keep it around the 2.4-2.5 range.

1450 + 600 = 2050 for the base spec Vader Gold Sparkle. The Seymour Duncans and Flamed Board will probably add to a portion of that cost as well.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 25, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I can't imagine it being that much higher, even the sigs like the LPM are just a few hundred more than a DC series with similar specs.
> 
> If anything, you might as well just spec out a VM7 and add the finish onto it, should keep it around the 2.4-2.5 range.
> 
> 1450 + 600 = 2050 for the base spec Vader Gold Sparkle. The Seymour Duncans and Flamed Board will probably add to a portion of that cost as well.



More than you are thinking.


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## VFB1210 (Aug 25, 2016)

Did Jeff specifically ask you to not reveal the price? I'm very curious now.

EDIT: Mobile typo


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 25, 2016)

VFB1210 said:


> Did Jeff specifically ask you to not receive eal the price? I'm very curious now.



Not at all. Just email them and you will find out.


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 25, 2016)

Yeah, just share the price unless you were asked not to. Everyone's allowed an opinion on if its worth it or not, no biggie.


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## The 1 (Aug 25, 2016)

MetalThrasher said:


> Not at all. Just email them and you will find out.



Please do share the price. I don't think its necessary for others to email him for the price if it wasn't a special quote for you.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 25, 2016)

^Like he said. Share the price please.


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## novocaine (Aug 26, 2016)

KnightBrolaire said:


> ^Like he said. Share the price please.



$3k for a 6.


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## VFB1210 (Aug 26, 2016)

novocaine said:


> $3k for a 6.



$3k for a 6 string version? Yeesh. If that really is the case then it's not difficult to imagine that the 7 string version would be somewhere between $3.2k-$3.5k. For that much Chris can keep his name... I look up to the guy, but that's not worth it imo. 

Then again I've never been one for signatures anyway, I want my guitar the way _I_ want it, and I'd only spring for a signature if it had what I was looking for, not for its own sake.

In any case, I already went ahead and emailed Kiesel myself, I guess we'll see soon if that's really the case.


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## CaptainD00M (Aug 26, 2016)

novocaine said:


> $3k for a 6.


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## narad (Aug 26, 2016)

If that's true, prepare for one of the worst selling sig guitars of all time.


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## technomancer (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm sure the logic was "well the Strandberg sig was that much so we can TOTALLY get that much" 

Wondering if they'll throw in the "Jeff works on these" card to try to help justify the price...


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 26, 2016)

Yeah, then they can get backlogged again cuz he's gotta touch them all. At that price, there better be some other really unique features. Otherwise, even taking the obsurd up charge on a standard Vader or multi is more worth it.

Edit: obsurd upcharge on the gold finish, I mean.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 26, 2016)

Ooof if those are going to be $3K+ I don't see them selling a ton.  That's already a pretty niche market (for the sparkle version) so I'm not sure the pricing is going to help that!


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## canuck brian (Aug 26, 2016)

VFB1210 said:


> Unfortunately I've never had a chance to play a Strandy or a Vader, but something about the Vader's hardware just screams "CHEAP!" to me, even if it is likely to be of just as good quality as the Strandberg hardware.



You really need to try things in person before making statements like this. I've owned a Strandy and probably have had about 15-20k in Hipshot products in my hands. Hipshot makes the most consistently amazing products and their bridges are built like tanks. They would replace something overnight for you if it was an issue. I cannot say the same for Strandberg.



nistley said:


> Because it looks that way. As opposed to say, strandy or mera hardware:
> http://padalka-guitars.com/portfolio-items/neptune-77/



I oddly don't feel like that when i look at a beautiful piece of engineering like a Transtrem. 

You can also convert the Hipshot bridge into a full piezo bridge.


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## technomancer (Aug 26, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> Ooof if those are going to be $3K+ I don't see them selling a ton.  That's already a pretty niche market (for the sparkle version) so I'm not sure the pricing is going to help that!



But dude...






How can they NOT sell tons of them


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## HighGain510 (Aug 26, 2016)

technomancer said:


> But dude...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Yeah I know it seems like the like/dislike of the finish is rather polarized here, I still dig the finish as the video Jeff posted showing the sparkles under direct sunlight in motion looked awesome. Of course, I also love sparkle finishes of many varieties so no surprise there...


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 26, 2016)

That's the thing though. You can get the gold finish on the same guitar and still be well under 3k.


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## WiseSplinter (Aug 26, 2016)

If I'm reading this correctly, the only unique feature on this signature model is the finish?
.... that's it?

Didn't his strandy sig at least have some features to differentiate itself from the other strandbergs? 
Unique scale-length, timbers, inlays, pickups (at least from the other production strandbergs).

As it stands you could just spec a Vader without the sparkle and get pretty much the same thing for half the price.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 26, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> That's the thing though. You can get the gold finish on the same guitar and still be well under 3k.



Right but I'm guessing not with custom slanted Duncans and gold Hipshot hardware etc.


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## narad (Aug 26, 2016)

WiseSplinter said:


> Didn't his strandy sig at least have some features to differentiate itself from the other strandbergs?
> Unique scale-length, timbers, inlays, pickups (at least from the other production strandbergs).



Pretty much just the inlay (which is the worst part about it). At times there weren't any other ways to order quite the same specs as the CL7, because they hadn't scaled up a lot of their options, but no, not really anything unique.


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 26, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> Right but I'm guessing not with custom slanted Duncans and gold Hipshot hardware etc.



Woops, I forgot about the Duncan's. Can the gold hardware be bought seperate?

Edit: forgot again that its a multi so perhaps again more difficult.


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## Razerjack (Aug 26, 2016)

It seems that the vader is slowly gaining the upper hand in the headless game... 

Still, the price seems very hard to justify, especially when Kiesel is known for its customizations, making signature models far less unique....


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 26, 2016)

I threw in a bunch of pricier options and this was still under 3k.


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## cip 123 (Aug 26, 2016)

I really don't get sig guitars from Carvin. Like their whole ethos is you can choose what you want, so why would you pay for someones name when you can get the specs anyway? Am I missing something? I like Chris but I don't think he's gonna have anything super unique.

Lee from BOO has a sig too which is basically DC7 with an awful inlay, right?

Granted if it's a sig shape. Or even a history behind a guitar I own a Bluey (JB200) and theres a history to those guitars as well as numbers guitars, I can sorta justify those, but still you could go out and order a Bluey even if the sig wasn't offered.


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## Adam Of Angels (Aug 26, 2016)

I get the sigs that are models all their own, but paying more for a Vader on account of somebody's name doesn't make sense to me.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm 90% sure his signature isn't the Vader we're seeing so far  this is on his website.







Maybe it'll be a new design or something unique to the Vader. I spec'd it out and a Gold Sparkle Vader with all the features I can see on this Gold one, and the final product comes out to 2200 so something isn't adding up here. Unless the price being spread around is fake or leaked for his actual signature.


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## Randy (Aug 26, 2016)

This is exactly the kinda conundrum that comes about from being halfway between "spec whatever you want" semi-custom shop (like they've always been) and the full custom/high spec production shop like Jeff's tried to model them as. It's super easy to nickel-and-dime models like this, where the cost would otherwise be justified or go unquestioned.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 26, 2016)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I threw in a bunch of pricier options and this was still under 3k.



Keep in mind that still doesn't take into account the Duncans or the Gold Hipshot hardware, as I already mentioned. I don't have a clue what the actual sig will look like so I can't say if the price will be justified, but if it's just the sparkle finish with gold hardware and Duncans, I still think $3K+ would be high. Based on what it says on his site, I'm guessing the actual sig is something no one has seen yet so I guess all the rampant speculation and outrage over the price could take a break for now...


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 26, 2016)

I'd wait until there's official word from Kiesel before jumping on the "too expensive" train. I mean, it wouldn't be too unexpected for them to overprice it, but it's still good to wait for the actual price to hit.

edit: Also ^ that.


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## Randy (Aug 26, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> Keep in mind that still doesn't take into account the Duncans or the Gold Hipshot hardware, as I already mentioned. I don't have a clue what the actual sig will look like so I can't say if the price will be justified, but if it's just the sparkle finish with gold hardware and Duncans, I still think $3K+ would be high. Based on what it says on his site, I'm guessing the actual sig is something no one has seen yet so I guess all the rampant speculation and outrage over the price could take a break for now...





Señor Voorhees;4636927 said:


> I'd wait until there's official word from Kiesel before jumping on the "too expensive" train. I mean, it wouldn't be too unexpected for them to overprice it, but it's still good to wait for the actual price to hit.
> 
> edit: Also ^ that.



Anybody know offhand the difference between a Lee McKinney signature and a similarly spec'd DC?

EDIT: BTW, I'm not asking these question to stir up trouble. I'm interested in a Vader and potentially a fanned 7, so if the gold grows on me and the price isn't insane, I'd be considering a CL. If the shape ends up being something different entirely, yeah, that'd blow that idea up.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 26, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> Keep in mind that still doesn't take into account the Duncans or the Gold Hipshot hardware, as I already mentioned.



The Duncans would be around $300-350 if you ordered a set direct from tube custom shop now. Kiesel would get that way down with bulk orders and if they are supplying their own bobbins and baseplates even more.


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## Mathemagician (Aug 26, 2016)

Offhand if I remember right, back when I tested it, it was like $1-200. A year ago now but still, I think that was part of the draw. Buying the sig saves a bit of cash, since they aren't a one-off build.


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## oracles (Aug 26, 2016)

$3k for something that still plays at a $1.5k level doesn't make any sense to me. Kiesel's are fine guitars for what they are, but I'd never pay a dime over $1500 for one, purely because of the options available once you go over that price point. If these are priced around that mark, I don't see them selling particularly well at all, especially considering that I don't think I've seen a single LPM sig NGD.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 26, 2016)

Randy said:


> Anybody know offhand the difference between a Lee McKinney signature and a similarly spec'd DC?
> 
> EDIT: BTW, I'm not asking these question to stir up trouble. I'm interested in a Vader and potentially a fanned 7, so if the gold grows on me and the price isn't insane, I'd be considering a CL. If the shape ends up being something different entirely, yeah, that'd blow that idea up.



You get that terrible looking inlay?   I think that's about it as you can get the 5-way blade + piezo controls on the DC model and it's basically the same thing as far as I can tell?



Lorcan Ward said:


> The Duncans would be around $300-350 if you ordered a set direct from tube custom shop now. Kiesel would get that way down with bulk orders and if they are supplying their own bobbins and baseplates even more.



Yeah I know what their CS pricing is like as I've used them a few times myself, but I don't know what kind of deal they would give a bulk order so that doesn't really mean much.  Not sure if they drop their custom shop pricing "way down" like they do for production pickups, and I don't know what amounts are required to get "bulk pricing discount" either so without that info, it's really hard to say what the cost to Kiesel would be.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 26, 2016)

the only signature I'd be even vaguely interested in is scott carstair's from fallujah. god that guitar is sexy. Pics related.


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## Santuzzo (Aug 26, 2016)

does anybody know if Chris is still using 8 string guitars at all with his band (or his solo project)?
I remember years ago he used to play 8-string guitars with an added high a-string and a low B-string if I recall correctly.
Does he use 7-string guitars exclusively nowadays?


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## StevenC (Aug 26, 2016)

He used a high G on his 8 strings, typically. But he doesn't use 8 strings anymore, and as far as I know sold all of his 8s, except a Boden OS8.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 26, 2016)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the only signature I'd be even vaguely interested in is scott carstair's from fallujah. god that guitar is sexy. Pics related.



His Koa K series is what inspired the specs for my K7C. His is a little more extravagant since the entire thing is made from koa, but yeah Scott's got some killer taste.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 26, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> His Koa K series is what inspired the specs for my K7C. His is a little more extravagant since the entire thing is made from koa, but yeah Scott's got some killer taste.



If I end up getting another Kiesel (which is inevitable, lets be honest ) it'll probably be something like his blue k series minus the tremolo.


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## bonga (Aug 27, 2016)

cip 123 said:


> I really don't get sig guitars from Carvin. Like their whole ethos is you can choose what you want, so why would you pay for someones name when you can get the specs anyway? Am I missing something? I like Chris but I don't think he's gonna have anything super unique.



I disagree, Kiesel/Carvin's signature guitars have specs that aren't really found on others. 

For example, Lee's six string is 25.5" scale length whereas I think DC600 is 25" (It might be 25.5", I might be mistaken). Also, the specs, neck shape, finish is semi-unique to the guitar. 

Additionally, there really is nothing close to the Greg Howe and Holdsworth models in the standard Kiesel or Carvin range. So a signature guitar does indeed make sense for Carvin too. 

Btw, we still don't know all the details about Chris' guitar. I will be truly happy if Jeff decided to do a bolt-on Vader!


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## narad (Aug 27, 2016)

bonga said:


> I disagree, Kiesel/Carvin's signature guitars have specs that aren't really found on others.
> 
> For example, Lee's six string is 25.5" scale length whereas I think DC600 is 25" (It might be 25.5", I might be mistaken). Also, the specs, neck shape, finish is semi-unique to the guitar.
> 
> ...



Nothing like a Howe? It's a 24 fret bolt. Lee's DC600? They've been doing a few 25.5" DC600s already. Holdsworth's model? That's a whole platform.


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## extendedsolo (Aug 27, 2016)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the only signature I'd be even vaguely interested in is scott carstair's from fallujah. god that guitar is sexy. Pics related.



This must be an extremely polarizing guitar because I find that guitar hideous. It's super tacky and I half expect it to have TRUMP stamped across the back. I saw them live recently and he had another one I liked way better.


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## vinniemallet (Aug 27, 2016)

Not a fan of Scott's kiesel. But that one from Jonathan is sick. My guitarist has one vader and it plays great, I feel it's a very high end guitar.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 27, 2016)

bonga said:


> Btw, we still don't know all the details about Chris' guitar. I will be truly happy if Jeff decided to do a bolt-on Vader!



why wait for details, they already made up their minds that the guitar is not worth it because its a Kiesel, and Kiesel hate is the "cool" thing right now.


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## technomancer (Aug 27, 2016)

SnowfaLL said:


> why wait for details, they already made up their minds that the guitar is not worth it because its a Kiesel, and Kiesel hate is the "cool" thing right now.



And then there are the fanboys who will snipe at anybody that has an opinion that doesn't agree with theirs in every Kiesel thread...

My personal opinion is that I'm curious to see what the specs of the sig are but I have owned lots of Carvin / Kiesel guitars and never played one that I would pay $3k for... based on lots of guitars from them and lots of other guitars all over the spectrum of prices over the years  

I'm still planning on picking up a few Kiesels like the Becker JB24 and probably a couple of Vaders in various configs so not like I'm a hater either


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## HighGain510 (Aug 27, 2016)

bonga said:


> Btw, we still don't know all the details about Chris' guitar. I will be truly happy if Jeff decided to do a bolt-on Vader!



I'm actually really hoping it's not a bolt-on Vader honestly.  The unhindered upper fret access on the neck-thru joint of the Vader is one of my favorites, especially compared to the CL7 I had. Granted the neck joint on the Boden is better than most bolts, it's just not as comfortable as say a Vader or a Majesty type of joint where there's really nothing to run up against.


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 27, 2016)

technomancer said:


> And then there are the fanboys who will snipe at anybody that has an opinion that doesn't agree with theirs in every Kiesel thread...
> 
> My personal opinion is that I'm curious to see what the specs of the sig are but I have owned lots of Carvin / Kiesel guitars and never played one that I would pay $3k for... based on lots of guitars from them and lots of other guitars all over the spectrum of prices over the years
> 
> I'm still planning on picking up a few Kiesels like the Becker JB24 and probably a couple of Vaders in various configs so not like I'm a hater either



Oh yes... 3k is well outside a good price to pay for the quality. Theyre good guitars, and give or take $1500-$1700 is well worth it through them, but outside of that, its better to go elsewhere.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 27, 2016)

technomancer said:


> And then there are the fanboys who will snipe at anybody that has an opinion that doesn't agree with theirs in every Kiesel thread...
> 
> My personal opinion is that I'm curious to see what the specs of the sig are but I have owned lots of Carvin / Kiesel guitars and never played one that I would pay $3k for... based on lots of guitars from them and lots of other guitars all over the spectrum of prices over the years
> 
> I'm still planning on picking up a few Kiesels like the Becker JB24 and probably a couple of Vaders in various configs so not like I'm a hater either



So you think its reasonable for people to be complaining about the cost/details of something that hasnt even been confirmed/announced yet? Ok.. 

I don't plan on buying a Kiesel ever again probably (maybe a used LB75 bass) but I guess that makes me a fanboy.

You even said it yourself a few pages back - 



technomancer said:


> Kiesel got some initial positive hype going then hired the wrong guy and had some customer service blunders and suddenly everyone hates them and loves to bash them. It's reached the point where it borders on the ridiculous.



In the end, guitars are subjective, and while you may feel many other brands are worth the $3k+ range, others might not. I'm not saying I'd pay $3k for a Kiesel but really when you are getting into that price range with them, its mostly "extra" specs you are paying for: Figured tops, crazy finishes, piezo and etc.. If the price matters that much to you, pay the stock $1500 and get a badass value guitar. Playability is the same on a normal black Vader vs a crazy burl with KT fretboard vader, for half the cost.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 27, 2016)

SnowfaLL said:


> So you think its reasonable for people to be complaining about the cost/details of something that hasnt even been confirmed/announced yet? Ok.. .



When did he say that? He's probably tired of both; the people that come into Kiesel threads just to .... things up, and also the people that come into threads that do nothing but bash people who aren't fans of Kiesel's way of running things and white knight the company.


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## technomancer (Aug 27, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> When did he say that? He's probably tired of both; the people that come into Kiesel threads just to .... things up, and also the people that come into threads that do nothing but bash people who aren't fans of Kiesel's way of running things and white knight the company.



Nailed it in one.

Though as I pretty much already said there is literally nothing Kiesel can do to a guitar that would make me pay $3k for something from them. I realize they're working REALLY hard to try to move themselves into the same category as PRS, Suhr, and Anderson and to some extent have succeeded in pushing up their price point and popularity but unfortunately the guitars are just not on that level. Again somewhat subjective IMHO YMMV etc etc... and I'm saying that as someone who LIKES their guitars 

Then again I'm an old curmudgeon as I also think pricing on higher end guitars has gone batsh1t crazy in the last couple of years...


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 27, 2016)

http://www.kieselguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/132574b.jpg

so just saw this on kiesel's website. really digging the burl with that finish.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 27, 2016)

pricing on guitars are ridiculous lately.. I know they say the "quality" is so amazing on all these "boutique" companies.. how can quality really change from a $3k guitar to a ~$6k guitar that much?? I dunno. I don't get it. I've tried lots of the large companies that get the A++ treatment on SS.org such as KXK, Strandberg, PRS, Suhr, Anderson, Vigiler - and not all of them I feel is worth it. It really is subjective.

I do feel comfortable spending the $4k (2600 Euro) on my Aristides, because you are paying for that technology/material.. but the above $3k-$4k range on most wooden guitars I think is often overstated, unless its like I mentioned, figured woods/crazy "extra" options that has no bearing on "quality".

This is why I think of a Kiesel as a $1500 guitar. That is their base price, everything past that is "extra". It's not fair to compare them against the $3k+ above price when all that is are extra options. Getting a Suhr with a one piece quilt top and finish under $6k? Unlikely.

Should add that I do understand the "supply and demand" aspect, which is why Blackmachine's and Ola-berg's raised up so much. Thats one thing, but when companies start at $6k without a great history or extremely limited supply.. it makes me wonder.


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## HaloHat (Aug 27, 2016)

Fathand said:


> Couple of points/IMOs:
> 
> 1. I feel old - everytime I read "*** guitarist gets endorsed by ***" - I usually go "Who?"
> 
> ...



Not hating on anyone. Kiesel is not young, it was the original Carvin company name and back to Kiesel now for basically the same reason it changed way back when [dealer agreements]. Jeff was born into the business and has a state of the art facility and skilled employees who rarely get the credit THEY deserve. Jeff is now closer to 40yrs old so not that young either.

Options. They are Kiesel's - Carvin's bread and butter. 
Combined with mostly good prices [with some glaring exceptions] and great build times compared to many semi-custom builders. Plus you know when you send your cash to them you know you are getting a guitar back. And as long as you don't op50 anything they pretty much have the best return policy in the business.

I miss much of Mark Kiesel though. Jeff has done great things. So have the company employees.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 27, 2016)

Value/Quality/Worth in the 2k+ price range is completely subjective. I've honestly had multiple guitars in and well past that range, and I've met people who jam with me that either agree or disagree on specific guitars (Mayones Masterbuilt, Suhr Collection, K Series, Blackwater Guitars, Aristides) and everytime they try to chart which guitar is better than the other ones it's always, always based on personal preference. Aka not liking the carved top on my BWG, so the K Series is more comfortable, the Aristides having better upper fret access than the Suhr or the Mayo, preferring a hardtail on the others instead of the Suhr/Kiesel.

When someone says that a brand is only worth 1500 playability wise, that makes no sense to me. The wood is there, they clearly have great pieces of wood available to customers. The quality is there as well, and I know it's easy to throw that out the window but I posted unedited HQ pics of my guitars whenever I make a NGD. And it's good to look at a guitar down to the very last inch to make sure your guitar is flawless, personally they have been for me. Playability is flexible and adjustable, and I have all my guitars setup to play the way I enjoy it. No guitar at it's core is really worth more than 2k, you're paying for a lot of luxuries to add to that cost on any instrument. Companies charge extra for certain finishes, exotic woods, and features. Absurd charges can be found in just about anyone's spec listing, Suhr charges almost $400 for Black and Gold hardware and 2k for a one piece body. The upcharge to go from an 080 to an 080s is quite a bit as well (Don't remember it offhand), Kiesel charges $600 for a sparkle finish, Mayones' Masterbuilt Series are several thousand dollars above their normal custom guitars.

I can personally make the call, because I have actual hands on experience with both. That Kiesel is on par with just about any EBMM I've ever owned, and if you know me you'll know I've been through quite a few EBMMs. I own Kiesel's flagship, and I've owned several of their models. I'm personally happy with my guitars, and that's all I can speak for.

I've been labeled a fanboy for them before, but I'm a fanboy of every brand I buy because if I go back to the brand for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th guitar. That just means I enjoyed the experience and it was pleasant all around, I think anyone who owns and purchases high end guitars regularly can attest to that regardless of the brand in question.


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## xvultures (Aug 27, 2016)

KnightBrolaire said:


> http://www.kieselguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/132574b.jpg
> 
> so just saw this on kiesel's website. really digging the burl with that finish.



Holy cow! :O I reallllly like that finish. Wish you would see that from more builders/companies.


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## narad (Aug 27, 2016)

HaloHat said:


> I miss much of Mark Kiesel though. Jeff has done great things. So have the company employees.



Yea man, I used to love getting those Carvin brochures in the mail every couple of months when I was in high school circa 1998. I would memorize the entire thing and dream of when I might have the cash to buy one. Half the guitars were walnut and had the green abalone block inlays, and that felt like a totally unique aesthetic AND I think they were the only built-to-order company me or my guitar teacher knew at the time. It's a bit of a shame that now that I have the money to spend on guitars, the magic I felt with that company doesn't really seem to be there.

But I'll probably get a Becker at some point because of exactly that nostalgia.


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## HaloHat (Aug 27, 2016)

What I miss most with Mark Kiesel is he was very friendly about buyers sending in their own exotic wood and not jacking the price to "your kidding right" prices.

He was clear on how they would accept the woods, take it or leave it. But he was fair in price and process. I really miss that more than I can expre$$


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## Hollowway (Aug 27, 2016)

While they already have a boatload of different models, and arguably don't need any more, I also hope that Chris's dig is something different than a regular Vader. To me, a true signature guitar would be if you were to give a guitarist access to a luthier, and told them they could have anything they want. To the best of my knowledge, that's essentially what Vai did with the first JEMs. But these days, the actual endorsement deals generally mean "which of our standard builds and options do you want?" when it comes to the actual guitar. I completely understand why that is, but I'd love to see some cool designs and ideas from the guys that play these things for a living. And by that I mean not paint colors, wood choices, etc, but fundamental things. I'd LOVE to see Chris have a dog that was as unique as the Holdsworth, for instance. And Jeff has shown he's not afraid to design and program new models, so maybe we'll get something uniquely Chris.


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## xzacx (Aug 27, 2016)

narad said:


> Yea man, I used to love getting those Carvin brochures in the mail every couple of months when I was in high school circa 1998. I would memorize the entire thing and dream of when I might have the cash to buy one. Half the guitars were walnut and had the green abalone block inlays, and that felt like a totally unique aesthetic AND I think they were the only built-to-order company me or my guitar teacher knew at the time. It's a bit of a shame that now that I have the money to spend on guitars, the magic I felt with that company doesn't really seem to be there.
> 
> But I'll probably get a Becker at some point because of exactly that nostalgia.



I couldn't agree with this more. The Carvin brochure and Eastbay catalogs were the literature of my youth. 

And it's not high on my priority list, but would be cool to have a Becker some day - that's really the only Carvin I could see myself waiting at this point, as it's the only one that really has any meaning to me.


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## Hollowway (Aug 27, 2016)

Ditto. If they had the Becker Numbers guitar available in 7 or 8 strings I'd buy one yesterday. Granted, he didn't play 7s and 8s, but they released a Numbers Vader, so I suppose anything is possible.


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 27, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> While they already have a boatload of different models, and arguably don't need any more, I also hope that Chris's dig is something different than a regular Vader. To me, a true signature guitar would be if you were to give a guitarist access to a luthier, and told them they could have anything they want. To the best of my knowledge, that's essentially what Vai did with the first JEMs. But these days, the actual endorsement deals generally mean "which of our standard builds and options do you want?" when it comes to the actual guitar. I completely understand why that is, but I'd love to see some cool designs and ideas from the guys that play these things for a living. And by that I mean not paint colors, wood choices, etc, but fundamental things. I'd LOVE to see Chris have a dog that was as unique as the Holdsworth, for instance. And Jeff has shown he's not afraid to design and program new models, so maybe we'll get something uniquely Chris.



I dunno... you give people the option of custom shapes, then you end up with trashy obnoxious shapes like both members of five finger death punch and St. Vincent. Not everybody is reasonable, especially in the metal industry. Just look at ESP's Japanese signature catalogue. You start giving your average Joe THAT kind of freedom, and guitar companies would be putting way too much time and effort into each individual artist, leaving them exceptionally boned when tbe guitarist inevitably gets bored and jumps ship. LOL

Everyone is better off with unique featured production models. It just makes more financial sense.


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 27, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> I dunno... you give people the option of custom shapes, then you end up with trashy obnoxious shapes like both members of five finger death punch and St. Vincent. Not everybody is reasonable, especially in the metal industry. Just look at ESP's Japanese signature catalogue. You start giving your average Joe THAT kind of freedom, and guitar companies would be putting way too much time and effort into each individual artist, leaving them exceptionally boned when tbe guitarist inevitably gets bored and jumps ship. LOL
> 
> Everyone is better off with unique featured production models. It just makes more financial sense.



 Good point. Maybe instead it would work for the person to say what they want and need, and then have a luthier design it. Like when rich people want a super cool custom house, they hire an architect, rather than try to design it themselves. But, the bottom line is that you're right - endorsements are designed to give the artist a discounted guitar and the maker exposure. Not to give Hollowway another cool guitar to buy.


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## Axayacatl (Aug 27, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Value/Quality/Worth in the 2k+ price range is completely subjective. I've honestly had multiple guitars in and well past that range, and I've met people who jam with me that either agree or disagree on specific guitars (Mayones Masterbuilt, Suhr Collection, K Series, Blackwater Guitars, Aristides) and everytime they try to chart which guitar is better than the other ones it's always, always based on personal preference. Aka not liking the carved top on my BWG, so the K Series is more comfortable, the Aristides having better upper fret access than the Suhr or the Mayo, preferring a hardtail on the others instead of the Suhr/Kiesel.
> 
> When someone says that a brand is only worth 1500 playability wise, that makes no sense to me. The wood is there, they clearly have great pieces of wood available to customers. The quality is there as well, and I know it's easy to throw that out the window but I posted unedited HQ pics of my guitars whenever I make a NGD. And it's good to look at a guitar down to the very last inch to make sure your guitar is flawless, personally they have been for me. Playability is flexible and adjustable, and I have all my guitars setup to play the way I enjoy it. No guitar at it's core is really worth more than 2k, you're paying for a lot of luxuries to add to that cost on any instrument. Companies charge extra for certain finishes, exotic woods, and features. Absurd charges can be found in just about anyone's spec listing, Suhr charges almost $400 for Black and Gold hardware and 2k for a one piece body. The upcharge to go from an 080 to an 080s is quite a bit as well (Don't remember it offhand), Kiesel charges $600 for a sparkle finish, Mayones' Masterbuilt Series are several thousand dollars above their normal custom guitars.
> 
> ...



I *definitely* value and would your opinion on guitars as I've spent more time than I'd like to admit ogling at pictures of your NGDs and they're 100% of the time backed up by your jealousy-inducing playing. If you grade any guitar on fit, finish, and playability, know that I'll listen. But I want to point out that the forumnite that you are replying to alluded to _playability_ for $1500, and in replying you brought up the wood choice.

Wood choice is a little bit of a tricky concept when it comes to playability. If I spec out a bare bones Aries (heck, give it a maple top and then and paint it all black gloss) and also spec out a nice Aries (same woods, maple top, but AAAAA-grade, and make it pop) and send them your way, I think the nicer Aries will undoubtedly be a nicer guitar all round, but I'm pretty confident that your playability score would be similar across the two guitars. If not, why not? Eric Johnson wants his ears back.

Playability is something that John Suhr can deliver for you if you send him your bolt-on Squier strat and are willing to pay for his time. I'll bet Cardinal's (gas inducing 7-string nut head on here) Squier 7s are setup to give his Tom Andersons a hard time. I myself may be willing to pay extra for that Fender Custom Shop Stratocaster because the way the mate the bolt on neck to the body is a sublime art that is immediately apparent in the playability. If I shell out another $500 for the Fender shop to find me a nice AAAA^5-grade maple top, that is awesome, but I'm not doing it for the playability. 

When any of us pay for nicer wood at Kiesel we are paying for a number of things: 1) a long run relationship between the Kiesels and the Koa Kartel in Hawaii (for example), 2) Jeff Kiesel hand-selecting a special top from 100s of tops that are almost as good for 99% of eyeballs, 3) a guarantee that the wood has been treated and inspected and won't warp in the near future, 4) let's be honest, some super crazy looking awesome wood...

...but in my humble opinion, very much NOT payability. 

The Bentley is not outperforming the Subaru Impreza on drivability and handling, necessarily. 

Please don't let my pedantry on 'playability' distract you from getting those awesome guitars and playing them so well and sharing it with us all. Ironically, to us channel viewers/subscribers the wood selection matters a lot more than the playability!


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## narad (Aug 27, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> V
> I've been labeled a fanboy for them before, but I'm a fanboy of every brand I buy because if I go back to the brand for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th guitar.



Why do spiders weave webs? 
Why do sloths climb down to the ground to poop? 
Why does Jonathan buy 4 guitars of a single brand? 
It's just what they do. It's just the way it is.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Aug 27, 2016)

SnowfaLL said:


> I do feel comfortable spending the $4k (2600 Euro) on my Aristides, because you are paying for that technology/material.. but the above $3k-$4k range on most wooden guitars I think is often overstated, unless its like I mentioned, figured woods/crazy "extra" options that has no bearing on "quality".



This is why I dropped the coin on my Parker Maxxfly. I was paying for things that are actually more than just wood. There are designs, materials, and technologys used to make them that are beyond your average guitar. 

Asking beyond a few thousand dollars for a traditional guitar is a little much IMO unless there is a reason.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 28, 2016)

Axayacatl said:


> I *definitely* value and would your opinion on guitars as I've spent more time than I'd like to admit ogling at pictures of your NGDs and they're 100% of the time backed up by your jealousy-inducing playing. If you grade any guitar on fit, finish, and playability, know that I'll listen. But I want to point out that the forumnite that you are replying to alluded to _playability_ for $1500, and in replying you brought up the wood choice.
> 
> Wood choice is a little bit of a tricky concept when it comes to playability. If I spec out a bare bones Aries (heck, give it a maple top and then and paint it all black gloss) and also spec out a nice Aries (same woods, maple top, but AAAAA-grade, and make it pop) and send them your way, I think the nicer Aries will undoubtedly be a nicer guitar all round, but I'm pretty confident that your playability score would be similar across the two guitars. If not, why not? Eric Johnson wants his ears back.
> 
> ...



Oh I meant the wood choice as another luxury that comes with ordering anything really over the base specs on one of their guitars. Just like EBMM the cheapest silhouette can and will play just as nicely as the most expensive BFR. Yeah the aesthetic side of the luxury upcharges don't affect the playability at all for sure, I should have been a bit more clear about that haha. Thanks for the kind words man 



narad said:


> Why do spiders weave webs?
> Why do sloths climb down to the ground to poop?
> Why does Jonathan buy 4 guitars of a single brand?
> It's just what they do. It's just the way it is.


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## cip 123 (Aug 28, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> Ditto. If they had the Becker Numbers guitar available in 7 or 8 strings I'd buy one yesterday. Granted, he didn't play 7s and 8s, but they released a Numbers Vader, so I suppose anything is possible.



Becker has a big guitar collection and it includes an original Ibanez Green dot universe gifted to him by one of his friends. I'm sure he said somewhere he would've liked to experiment, even if nothing came of it.

https://www.facebook.com/jason.beck...10151528079968568.1073741825.541033567&type=3

The collection also includes some crazy rare guitars such as Performance numbers with Stephens-esque cutaways. AND a custom Ibanez similar to his numbers.(LACS I assume?) 

Carvin do make the JB207 albeit with that hideous inline Dean headstock. Why they never went with a 7 string version of the JB200 and numbers guitar I will never understand.  Though I'd love to see a 7 string numbers. Anyway sorry for the slight derail.


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## Severance (Aug 29, 2016)

HighGain510 said:


> I'm actually really hoping it's not a bolt-on Vader honestly.  The unhindered upper fret access on the neck-thru joint of the Vader is one of my favorites, especially compared to the CL7 I had. Granted the neck joint on the Boden is better than most bolts, it's just not as comfortable as say a Vader or a Majesty type of joint where there's really nothing to run up against.



I second this as a ms vader owner and a 6'5" dude. I've always had problems with access on double cut bodies. And after 2 months of having my vader I can honestly say i don't really feel a difference in the 12th or the 24th fret. My hand also hasn't collided with the bottom wing yet at all. I wouldn't change anything on the guitar except the heads of the pots.


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## Randy (Aug 29, 2016)

cip 123 said:


> Becker has a big guitar collection and it includes an original Ibanez Green dot universe gifted to him by one of his friends. I'm sure he said somewhere he would've liked to experiment, even if nothing came of it.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/jason.beck...10151528079968568.1073741825.541033567&type=3
> 
> ...



OT, but does anybody know how the numbers are affixed? I've never seen one in person but all the pictures I've seen, the edges on the font are so sharp and there's no perceivable gaps, so I'm under the impression they're just stuck to the maple and clear coated over, as opposed to actually being inlayed?


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## The 1 (Aug 29, 2016)

Randy said:


> OT, but does anybody know how the numbers are affixed? I've never seen one in person but all the pictures I've seen, the edges on the font are so sharp and there's no perceivable gaps, so I'm under the impression they're just stuck to the maple and clear coated over, as opposed to actually being inlayed?



According to Carvin's website, they are inlayed and not decals.

"Also unique to this instrument are the namesake multi- color "Numbers" inlays. These are actual inlays, not just decals."

http://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/jb24


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## cip 123 (Aug 29, 2016)

Randy said:


> OT, but does anybody know how the numbers are affixed? I've never seen one in person but all the pictures I've seen, the edges on the font are so sharp and there's no perceivable gaps, so I'm under the impression they're just stuck to the maple and clear coated over, as opposed to actually being inlayed?




CNC'd dude -


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## VFB1210 (Aug 30, 2016)

So I just heard back from Izzy at Kiesel...

$3200 was what they quoted me.

Nope.avi

Side note: would it be inappropriate/unacceptable to screencap the email as proof?


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## cip 123 (Aug 30, 2016)

If that $3200 is the case I think they're missing the mark. Not because it's too expensive for a kiesel I honestly don't care. But it seems they have the mindset to make something similar to his strandy.

This seems like an excellent opportunity for both Chris and kiesel to release something a little cheaper but still of great quality so letchford fans can actually afford it. A strandy is super expensive.


That said it is CHRIS' guitar, he can do whatever the heck he wants. But a smart business move is something slightly more affordable, it doesn't mean you can't upgrade it with specs on kiesels site.


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## Chokey Chicken (Aug 30, 2016)

Yeah the strands are expensive, but they sell incredibly well. If kiesel turns something out remotely as appealing as the strands, then it makes perfect sense to charge higher prices from a business standpoint. 

I don't think thatll be the case however. I'm sure they'll sell some, but I doubt it'll be a "must have" for anyone who isn't a fan. We'll see though! Maybe I'm wrong. Best we can do is just wait.


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## cip 123 (Aug 30, 2016)

Exactly if they are comparable quality, they can charge what they want. It's just a good business opportunity for both parties to make something that's more accessible. I mean Chris could get a totally spec'd put guitar, but there's no reason the Base model couldn't be more affordable with the options kiesel offer its easy to make it worth 3200.


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## bostjan (Aug 30, 2016)

VFB1210 said:


> So I just heard back from Izzy at Kiesel...
> 
> $3200 was what they quoted me.
> 
> ...



What spec's?

I guess, maybe, it doesn't matter. Whatever specs you chose, I don't think a more basic model would be enough less cost to make this interesting.

I'll be interested to see if anyone here snags one. I might be a little surprised if I see a NGD post for one of these in the next twelve months.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Aug 30, 2016)

Well, price is relative, and my understanding is that it depends on a lot of factors, e.g. demand, new features that need to be programmed in CNC, etc.

So do we know anything about this new sig.? Aside from the (IMHO) horrid finish & a coil tap switch, anything different from a typical FF Vader? Given the unique Strandberg neck profile, will this model attempt to simulate a similar profile?


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 30, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Given the unique Strandberg neck profile, will this model attempt to simulate a similar profile?


No. Kiesel would have to design their own neck profile because Ola Strandberg pulled all licensing on his designs. However, Kiesel are not innovators trying to bring about new ideas in ergonomics like Strandberg. (It's just not who they are. They are a basic semi-custom production line shop. That is it.) So this new Chris Letchford is going to have a standard/traditional neck profile.


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## Randy (Aug 30, 2016)

Alright, so are we comfortable with saying the Gold Digger IS Chris Letchford's signature model and the Gold Digger IS $3200 as pictured, or are we still speculating about a completely different designed guitar at a completely different pricepoint?


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 30, 2016)

Who the .... really knows? lol 

It's worded very ambiguously. "He'll be using the vader models and designing a new signature model guitar" can be interpreted in so many different ways. I figure it's best just to wait and see. Not that I care as I have literally zero interest in this beyond seeing a new shiny thing. I've no desire to spend 3k on any guitar at the moment, let alone a fanned fret vader in fuggo gold finish. Hell, I'm not really a fan of the guy... Though that could just be because I've never listened to his music. I tend to like it when signature models are only vaguely a sig, but with cool features. The KM7 being a great example, as it just looks like a classy guitar with some cool features.

You start adding goofy inlays, .... ugly colors, and other weird gimmicks I lose interest. So far the only appealing thing about this is that it'll probably have slanted duncans by default. Everything else is yuck.


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## xzacx (Aug 30, 2016)

Randy said:


> Alright, so are we comfortable with saying the Gold Digger IS Chris Letchford's signature model and the Gold Digger IS $3200 as pictured, or are we still speculating about a completely different designed guitar at a completely different pricepoint?



I feel like it's safe to say the Gold Digger is $3200. I doubt any company would release the price for a guitar that hasn't even been designed yet. They put the image out, and gave a price, so that's just what makes sense to me. I realize logic doesn't always work with this stuff though. 

Side note - I'm no fan of Kiesel at all, but I feel like I'm the only one that doesn't hate that gold finish. I mean, I'd never want it even if there wasn't a $600 uncharge. I wouldn't want it of it was a free option. But it looks really well executed for what it is.


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## SpaceDock (Aug 30, 2016)

I'm hoping strandberg does a sale on the cl7 because of this


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## Mattykoda (Aug 30, 2016)

^ This guys got the right idea!

Oh and *like*


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## HighGain510 (Aug 30, 2016)

Confirmation straight from Chris H. @ Kiesel (because wild speculation and posting half information and not following up when people ask for clarification is silly...):



Chris H said:


> The $3200 price tag is for the "Golddigger" guitars that our newsletter advertised to commemorate his joining the family. The price will vary depending on the amount of strings but that's the base price of the model package. This is currently the only way to get gold hardware on a Vader. We don't have any pricing set for anything other than that.



There you go, speculation over.


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## MetalThrasher (Aug 30, 2016)

Yep that's why I think Jeff has lost his mind! $3,200 for a Kiesel is crazy. If I was going to spend that much I would spend a couple hundred more and just get a Jackson custom shop. I'm really curious to see how these sell?


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## cip 123 (Aug 30, 2016)

Why did no one go straight to Chris Hong in the first place?  Dude is the best guy at Carvin.


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 30, 2016)

I just trusted that somebody already e-mailed about the price, so I was confident enough that the 3k was for the gold digger. I really didn't feel like sending an e-mail and wasting their time since a few folks already did, and I certainly had no intentions of buying it.

So that's good to hear it MORE clarified. Can't really say I think it's worth it, but to each their own. I'll stick to a standard fanned Vader 7 if I must get one. (the aries seems more appealing to me anyway.)


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## NemesisTheory (Aug 31, 2016)

Chris is indeed fantastic, but the other guys are also generally great and knowledgeable so don't rule anyone else out if you call and another dude answers! I only ever had issues with one guy there over the years.


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## Malkav (Aug 31, 2016)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> No. Kiesel would have to design their own neck profile because Ola Strandberg pulled all licensing on his designs. However, Kiesel are not innovators trying to bring about new ideas in ergonomics like Strandberg. (It's just not who they are. They are a basic semi-custom production line shop. That is it.) So this new Chris Letchford is going to have a standard/traditional neck profile.



FWIW Chris never used the Endurneck, he always had his .Strandberg* guitars made with C profile necks.

Also I just think the Vader is fugly regardless of the tacky gold finish


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## Dcm81 (Aug 31, 2016)

SnowfaLL said:


> pricing on guitars are ridiculous lately...
> 
> I do feel comfortable spending the $4k (2600 Euro) on my Aristides, because you are paying for that technology/material...



Wow, I need to meet your banker!  2600 Euros are around 2800 Dollars. So even for the "technologically advanced" Aristides, you're still paying under $3000.


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## nistley (Aug 31, 2016)

Malkav said:


> FWIW Chris never used the Endurneck, he always had his .Strandberg* guitars made with C profile necks.



Do you have a source for this? I've never heard this before.


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## Malkav (Aug 31, 2016)

nistley said:


> Do you have a source for this? I've never heard this before.



It was on his Ask FM account, he didn't use the Endurneck personally which is why I believe the first iteration of his signature came with the choice of normal or endurneck profile.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 31, 2016)

nistley said:


> Do you have a source for this? I've never heard this before.


Watch his videos for EMG TV. There are a few shots where you can tell that he was using a standard rounded profile. In the video where he is giving a rundown of his gear and explaining the specs of his signature CL7 for EMG TV, you can clearly tell that it is a rounded profile (as Chris mentions that he swapped out the neck a few times on his custom CL7).


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## StevenC (Aug 31, 2016)

Also, check Chris's CL7 NGD. Rounded neck on that.


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## jemfloral (Aug 31, 2016)

As above, Chris' CL7s all have the standard round neck profile. The OS6, OSCL7 and OS8 that he has are the Endurneck profile since they are production guitars.


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## nistley (Aug 31, 2016)

Malkav said:


> It was on his Ask FM account, he didn't use the Endurneck personally which is why I believe the first iteration of his signature came with the choice of normal or endurneck profile.



Woah, thanks.


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## Crash Dandicoot (Aug 31, 2016)

Personally asked him about it when they were in Edmonton last, he does not use the Endurneck.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Oct 22, 2016)

Check out this video showing Chris's new VM7. https://www.instagram.com/p/BL13hqXBUqx/


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## narad (Oct 22, 2016)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Check out this video showing Chris's new VM7. https://www.instagram.com/p/BL13hqXBUqx/



Going back to his custom Jackson color scheme


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Oct 22, 2016)

The finish looks really cool!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 22, 2016)

Alright NOW we're ....in' talkin'.


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## laxu (Oct 22, 2016)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Check out this video showing Chris's new VM7. https://www.instagram.com/p/BL13hqXBUqx/



God damn that is a nice finish. Kiesel really nailed that one.


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## Chokey Chicken (Oct 22, 2016)

Finish is gorgeous, but I don't know if I care for the $600 price tag. Was, and am still, heavily considering a guitar in that finish. Depending on my finances this tax season, I might spring for it.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Oct 22, 2016)

wow that is a killer color


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## laxu (Oct 22, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Finish is gorgeous, but I don't know if I care for the $600 price tag. Was, and am still, heavily considering a guitar in that finish. Depending on my finances this tax season, I might spring for it.



That's quite an upcharge. Is it because it's made by Jeff Kiesel personally or something?


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Oct 22, 2016)

I think he said something about it being more labor intensive and taking up a lot of time. And yes he does then personally.


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## hodorcore (Oct 22, 2016)

how can you order custom geeters from keesel? is there a quote form


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## Señor Voorhees (Oct 22, 2016)

I forget the reasoning he gave me, but I'm pretty sure it was more labor intensive and I think it sounded like he did it personally (to some extent at least) too. I'm curious as to the process since you can get a lot of other custom colors for I think $150-$200. It's definitely on my radar, but I might be forced into passing it up cuz I'm a poor ass mofo and $600 can get me a lot of other gear I want/need. S'gunna take some talking myself into it if I do go for it.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Oct 22, 2016)

hodorcore said:


> how can you order custom geeters from keesel? is there a quote form


 If it's something other than what they offer on the usual custom shop order form, it's best to call them and see how much it would be. 

http://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/


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## Hollowway (Oct 22, 2016)

Definitely like that purple. Not a fan of the glossy back of neck finish (or the purple on the back at all), but this is a much nicer color to me than the gold!


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## laxu (Oct 23, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4660403 said:


> I forget the reasoning he gave me, but I'm pretty sure it was more labor intensive and I think it sounded like he did it personally (to some extent at least) too. I'm curious as to the process since you can get a lot of other custom colors for I think - It's definitely on my radar, but I might be forced into passing it up cuz I'm a poor ass mofo and can get me a lot of other gear I want/need. S'gunna take some talking myself into it if I do go for it.



I really think they are shooting themselves in the foot with the "made by Jeff Kiesel personally" stuff. Personally I don't really care which one of them makes it if the end result is great, but having to pay more because the head honcho doesn't want to train their guys to do the finishes is bull.


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## Santuzzo (Oct 23, 2016)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Check out this video showing Chris's new VM7. https://www.instagram.com/p/BL13hqXBUqx/



that does look very nice!


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## getowned7474 (Oct 23, 2016)

It looks like the guitar is stained blue, mabye sanded back some, and then sprayed with that translucent reddish pink color. 
If you look in the pickup cavities you can see the red/pink, and if you look at the "deep" sections of the quilted maple it looks very blue. 
If that's what they're doing I think it's pretty cool, it seems people limit themselves by making the "deep" sanded back color always black. 
You can come up with all kinds of crazy looking colors combinations if you stain with something other than black and sand it back to emphasize the quilt and then spray over that.


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## hodorcore (Oct 23, 2016)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> If it's something other than what they offer on the usual custom shop order form, it's best to call them and see how much it would be.
> 
> http://www.kieselguitars.com/customshop/




thx m8


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## nistley (Oct 23, 2016)

It looks somewhat over the top, like so much other Kiesel stuff


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## mbardu (Oct 23, 2016)

getowned7474 said:


> It looks like the guitar is stained blue, mabye sanded back some, and then sprayed with that translucent reddish pink color.
> If you look in the pickup cavities you can see the red/pink, and if you look at the "deep" sections of the quilted maple it looks very blue.
> If that's what they're doing I think it's pretty cool, it seems people limit themselves by making the "deep" sanded back color always black.
> You can come up with all kinds of crazy looking colors combinations if you stain with something other than black and sand it back to emphasize the quilt and then spray over that.



PRS does a lot of the multicolored-multilayered.
Glad to see Kiesel joining in.
I reckon they could use a bit of work there - their deep stains are often a bit too 2-dimensional otherwise.

This one I read it more as a deep purple stain with a pink spray on top, but could be your interpretation.


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## A-Branger (Oct 24, 2016)

wooow thats some tasty purple top right thee. And agree with above, Im not too fuzz about the back, but man that top oohhhh


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## spudmunkey (Oct 25, 2016)

nistley said:


> It looks somewhat over the top, like so much other Kiesel stuff



It's a totally custom build for a signature artist. They will happily build you a tung-oiled all mahogany build, or simple gloss black-painted alder/maple guitar if you want. Always have. This purple guitar doesn't take that away.


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## nistley (Oct 27, 2016)

spudmunkey said:


> It's a totally custom build for a signature artist. They will happily build you a tung-oiled all mahogany build, or simple gloss black-painted alder/maple guitar if you want. Always have. This purple guitar doesn't take that away.



Certainly, I'm not complaining about purchasing options, but about a favorite artist going from promoting beautiful guitars to promoting glitzy stuff. I think the opinion could be considered constructive, if I suggest they don't make the neck so saturated. Maybe more people might pay more money for more balance, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, good design is hard.


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## SnowfaLL (Oct 27, 2016)

nistley said:


> Certainly, I'm not complaining about purchasing options, but about a favorite artist going from promoting beautiful guitars to promoting glitzy stuff. I think the opinion could be considered constructive, if I suggest they don't make the neck so saturated. Maybe more people might pay more money for more balance, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, good design is hard.



So the perfect purple quilt is "glitzy stuff" compared to this "beautiful guitar" below??







Imagine if Chris took this image with a vader? People would be freaking out "Look at what Jeff made him do!"

sigh.. why won't people just understand that Jeff is only building what the artist wants? Theres PLENTY of plain guitars, even by artists - go look at Allan Holdsworth or Frank Gambale's signatures.. It's not like hes saying "you will play a sparkling pink X guitar or no endorsement"..


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## Chokey Chicken (Oct 27, 2016)

To be fair, when left to his own devices, Jeff makes gaudy looking nonsense. lol He has weird taste. Still, the point does remain that he just builds what the customer/artist wants. In this case it's not even really over the top. The gold guitar was cheesy, but this one is pretty straightforward and nice.


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## nistley (Oct 27, 2016)

SnowfaLL said:


> So the perfect purple quilt is "glitzy stuff" compared to this "beautiful guitar" below??



Yeah, somehow I find that blue sparkle less glitzy than pinky purple. I do appreciate the multicolor purple top, it's the back/neck that really puts it "over" for me. Of course, I could be completely unique in my opinion ¯\_(&#12484_/¯


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## Chokey Chicken (Oct 27, 2016)

Not gonna lie... I forgot about the back. It is a little cheesy, and it's something I'd personally skip. All purple for me thanks.


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## oracles (Oct 27, 2016)

SnowfaLL said:


> why won't people just understand that Jeff is only building what the artist wants? .



Because Jeff has proven over the course of multiple builds that he shouldn't be left alone with a spec sheet. Those builds are among the gaudiest guitars ever created.


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## Señor Voorhees (Oct 27, 2016)

But that's the thing. He's not the only one with gaudy taste. The ones he's personally responsible for are generally pretty weird. I've seen things he's responsible for akin to blue quilt top with a yellow burst with a natural body and a matching blue quilt back with natural maple neck with blue flamed stripes. (and that's not taking into account that he dyes the boards too.

That's pretty irrelevant though, unless he was left in charge of doing the guitar. I've seen customers request equally gross things, and Chris' gold thing is certainly way over the top. I wouldn't put it past him to have something like this made by request, especially since it is relatively normal looking. Basically, yeah Kiesel makes gaudy things. But they usually only do it at request. It's not ALWAYS their fault when people go absolutely overboard. Even with the sort of meh back it's a pretty nice looking guitar.


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## Beefmuffin (Oct 27, 2016)

Gold Digger > Purple Candy.....that is all


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## xwmucradiox (Oct 27, 2016)

Is the name of the sig model ironic now that news is coming out that CL didn't want to pay his bandmates and they all quit?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 27, 2016)

xwmucradiox said:


> Is the name of the sig model ironic now that news is coming out that CL didn't want to pay his bandmates and they all quit?



Huh? Got the receipts?


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## oracles (Oct 27, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Huh? Got the receipts?



http://www.itdjents.com/news/every-member-scale-summit-quit-except-chris-letchford/


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## technomancer (Oct 27, 2016)

That candy purple is awesome



oracles said:


> http://www.itdjents.com/news/every-member-scale-summit-quit-except-chris-letchford/


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 28, 2016)

Sounds like the journalist is stretching that quite a bit with implications over actual facts, I honestly haven't really enjoyed Scale the Summit since The Collective. But if the band members left on apparently a good note, it's probably not because they weren't getting paid but because they weren't willing to get paid what was being offered. Then again I don't exactly expect AAA journalism from a website called It Djents 

It'd be interesting to hear from the bandmates what really happened if it isn't what Letchford said. Kind of a weird fact to announce to your fanbase as well


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## technomancer (Oct 28, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Sounds like the journalist is stretching that quite a bit with implications over actual facts, I honestly haven't really enjoyed Scale the Summit since The Collective. But if the band members left on apparently a good note, it's probably not because they weren't getting paid but because they weren't willing to get paid what was being offered. Then again I don't exactly expect AAA journalism from a website called It Djents
> 
> It'd be interesting to hear from the bandmates what really happened if it isn't what Letchford said. Kind of a weird fact to announce to your fanbase as well



Yeah it was sort of odd that the band members just said we're no longer with the group and Chris posted like he had to justify them leaving and place blame on the issue...


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## VforVendetta00 (Oct 31, 2016)

Interesting article about this i just came across.....


http://www.heavyblogisheavy.com/2016/10/31/what-happened-to-scale-the-summit-j-c-bryant-on-leaving/


I rarely post here these days but i remembered seeing this thread so here you go.


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## nistley (Oct 31, 2016)

VforVendetta00 said:


> Interesting article about this i just came across.....
> 
> 
> http://www.heavyblogisheavy.com/2016/10/31/what-happened-to-scale-the-summit-j-c-bryant-on-leaving/
> ...



Well that escalated quickly. Ouch.


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## MFB (Oct 31, 2016)

Hoo boy, ain't that some juicy .... right there?

If true it makes me glad I only bought one of their albums


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## Crash Dandicoot (Nov 1, 2016)

That's a damning revelation - I wonder how Chris will react.


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## sonicwarrior (Nov 1, 2016)

Can't we just leave the break up stuff on the Scale the Summit thread? I'm already bored by it.


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## drmosh (Nov 1, 2016)

sonicwarrior said:


> Can't we just leave the break up stuff on the Scale the Summit thread? I'm already bored by it.



And it's all he said-she said..
That breakdown of the money made sounds like a primary school kid's interpretation of how the world of money works.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Dec 8, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-en9lfazv4


Newest model Kiesel in purple. Gorgeous.


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## narad (Dec 8, 2016)

AkiraSpectrum said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-en9lfazv4
> 
> 
> Newest model Kiesel in purple. Gorgeous.



Who was he talking about as far as getting burned and having guys here not getting their guitars? That couldn't have been .strandberg* or artinger or jackson....is it BRJ?


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 8, 2016)

^Sherman I think.


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## Science_Penguin (Dec 8, 2016)

I, as an outsider to this whole thing, would just like to point out that this thread has twelve pages.

The announcement that Marty Friedman switched back to Jackson didn't even break into two.

What happened here?


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## narad (Dec 8, 2016)

Science_Penguin said:


> I, as an outsider to this whole thing, would just like to point out that this thread has twelve pages.
> 
> The announcement that Marty Friedman switched back to Jackson didn't even break into two.
> 
> What happened here?



What would we talk about regarding Marty going back to Jackson? Yay, Marty. Done.


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## StevenC (Dec 8, 2016)

narad said:


> Who was he talking about as far as getting burned and having guys here not getting their guitars? That couldn't have been .strandberg* or artinger or jackson....is it BRJ?



It was Sherman. He had one or two more guitars ordered from Sherman that he had paid for in part that never got delivered.


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## Andromalia (Dec 9, 2016)

Science_Penguin said:


> I, as an outsider to this whole thing, would just like to point out that this thread has twelve pages.
> 
> The announcement that Marty Friedman switched back to Jackson didn't even break into two.
> 
> What happened here?



I think it has to do with the D word.


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