# Inside/ Outside Picking



## jimmyshred (Oct 30, 2009)

Hey everyone, just needed to ask a real quick question regarding inside/outside picking. 

So I have been working on my alternate picking a hell of a lot lately and the only thing that causes me to stuff up certain runs is when I have to pick down right after picking up and moving on to the lower or higher string(not so much the other way around). This is really only when trying to pick slightly faster then I normally would which isnt really insanely fast but its fast. 
Basically, what I wanted to know is if there were any exercises that focus right in on inside and outside picking or am I stuck to slave away at the metronome?
Also does the pick angle make a difference because I hold it at a very slight angle to the string Im about to pick?
Thanks.


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## Fionn (Oct 30, 2009)

I find holding the pick at an angle helps. I actually find inside picking much more effcient than outside for fast stuff. Basically I like to practice the same runs but starting with different strokes. I.e. try a six note 3 note per string pattern with an upstroke instead of a down and you will find it goes up, down, up, down (next string), up etc. There is less distance for the pick to move in between the strings, hence you can pick a hell of a lot faster. I then practice it with a down stroke first. Do this on all you different excercises and it will help you tighten up your inside picking.

It also applies decending too, in fact it is much more natural decending due to most people starting the decending runs with a down pick which when you move up a string (3 notes per string) you are again inside the strings.

Hope that helps?


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## jimmyshred (Oct 30, 2009)

Yeah dude, makes complete sense 
Ill give that a go later on today and see how much it helps


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## ShadyDavey (Oct 30, 2009)

I must confess when I see really good pickers like Al Dimeola, or Paul Gilbert, or John Maclaughlin my mind explodes - their alternate picking is faster than most people's inside/economy approaches...

As Fionn said - alternating your starting point is a brilliant and simple way of increasing speed but if you really must rigidly stick to alternate picking with all the outside/inside strokes then you could try a simple excercises like:

E
B
G
D
A ---2---2
E 0-0-0-0- 

Just start with a downstroke, and of course every other B will be played with an upstroke. For more fun, just displace any notes that aren't played on the E String by larger intervals and you're insantly in the torture zone for practice. 

As soon as you get comfortable with one position, start making up your own licks with position shifts and different amounts of notes to emphasise any difficulties you might run into. 

Try both ideas and see which you prefer - it's all good  (I find strict alternate picking to be a chore although for many metal styles you really need a well developed technique for the rhythm playing....)


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm sure I completely understand what you're describing, but my "alternate picking" I don't think is actually alternate picking. If it's more comfortable to do 2 down strokes or two up strokes when moving to the next string, I do that--it's more of a sweeping motion but only for two strings being that it's more convenient to do that and it doesn't waste any motion. 

I don't know if I was on topic because I didn't quite understand your problem, but I hope I helped maybe a tiny bit... 

EDIT: I just played to make sure I described it right and I've found that I only do this when descending... When I go up everything is alternate picked and I'm not exactly sure how I developed this... I fail...


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 31, 2009)

There's also direction alt-picking which is like a sweep/alt picking mix. (Which I use)
It (usually) involves the following criteria

For one string rhythm playing usually starting on a downstroke (then its DUDUDU....)

```
--v-^-v-^-v-^-v-^-v-^-
--D-U-D-U-D-U-D-U-D-U-

B-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
```

Downpicking when moving to higher pitched strings, and uppicking when moving to lower pitched ones.

```
--^^^----vvv
--uuu----DDD
E--------8
B---------10
G-----------11
D---5----
A--3----
E-2----
B-
```

I like to think it's pretty ergonomic too, but I can't really test that. 
Sorry if this seems a lil' OT, but I think inside picking seems like something directional picking would produce.


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## Fionn (Oct 31, 2009)

> I'm sure I completely understand what you're describing, but my "alternate picking" I don't think is actually alternate picking. If it's more comfortable to do 2 down strokes or two up strokes when moving to the next string, I do that--it's more of a sweeping motion but only for two strings being that it's more convenient to do that and it doesn't waste any motion.



This is not techinally "alternate picking" its "economy picking"... But you can get some serious speed up with it, but it tends to blur a bit when used at high speeds.

The benifits of practicing perfect alternate is that you learn control quicker and techs like ecomony etc are then easier to do in the long run!



> There's also direction alt-picking which is like a sweep/alt picking mix. (Which I use)
> It (usually) involves the following criteria
> 
> For one string rhythm playing usually starting on a downstroke (then its DUDUDU....)
> ...



Thats a pretty cool way of looking at it!!!


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## Harry (Nov 2, 2009)

I found learning both strict and directional picking was the way to go.
There are so many licks I've found much easier directional picked, so it's good to know both.


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## EdgeC (Nov 2, 2009)

I know that over the years i practiced alternate, all down, all up, economy, sweep on just about every excercise I did (where possible of course).

Now i seem to automatically play the techniques without thinking about it. For example I don't actually play something economy picked on purpose it just happens where its needed.

I would try and pick all your excerices using different techniques to help develop them all equally. Then your brain will decide as you play. At speeds upwards of 180bpm its got to be automatic.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 2, 2009)

Fionn said:


> This is not techinally "alternate picking" its "economy picking"... But you can get some serious speed up with it, but it tends to blur a bit when used at high speeds.
> 
> The benifits of practicing perfect alternate is that you learn control quicker and techs like ecomony etc are then easier to do in the long run!
> 
> ...


I only economy pick descending licks for some reason. I never consciously thought about it. It just kind of developed that way.


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 3, 2009)

strict alternate picking really slow to a metronome. try to minimize hand movement to get from one string to another. figure out what your hand would _have_ to do while moving fast, and make sure you practice that way slow.

idk i've never had a problem with inside picking, ever.

also practice picking super-hard but in perfect time (and properly). go watch that documentary on shredding... i forget what it's called right now. rusty cooley's in it. remember to pick from the wrist but use your elbow to move the whole mechanism so that you use the same pick angle on all of the strings (which should be the proper pick angle. I'd say maybe 10-30 degrees off from horizontal. also tilt the pick towards the neck or bridge a little bit, this helps.

Idk what else to say I gotta get the hell of this site till i realize i'm posting at 5am. maybe more stuff tomorrow


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 3, 2009)

I've noticed that just practicing picking in general you'll encounter problems like this from time to time and you'll realize you have difficulty alternate picking certain things or economy picking certain things or sweep picking or string skipping etc.

I recommend you do what Petrucci and Wooten do. Make up a short little musical exercise that utilizes what you're having a problem with HEAVILY. That way it's fun to play so you'll want to practice it but you're getting the benefit of strengthening a weak area as well.

When I had problems with trills I wrote riffs that used a lot of trills. Same with pinch harmonics, the gallopy chugging... So on and so forth...


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## Fionn (Nov 3, 2009)

+1 on both the above posts!!!


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## wannabguitarist (Nov 3, 2009)

I have a similar issue with my rhythm playing and made a thread about it. There's some good advice in there: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...niques/82732-odd-picking-habit-i-noticed.html


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## harrymo (Nov 3, 2009)

Cool thing for outside picking I used was an old paul gilber lick off intense rock 1 video. check the stuff after all the intro stuff from this vid


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 3, 2009)

harrymo said:


> Cool thing for outside picking I used was an old paul gilber lick off intense rock 1 video. check the stuff after all the intro stuff from this vid




i think everyone from myself to rusty cooley and so on and so forth has practiced to this lick!

good call, dude.

yeah, this is definitely the meat n potatoes of alternate picking. if you can do this exercise (DUDUDUDUDUDUDUD etc) at speed, you are 75% of the way there for shredding alt-picking


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## Dark Epic (Nov 3, 2009)

After reading all these suggestion I started putting my technique under a microscope, and something I never realized I do in Alternate picking that might help you out ... on the desension(moving down the neck) I pick in a clockwise pattern extremely tight , and on ascension, I pick counterclockwise also tight. And another way to increase speed with like a sus4 chord in dropped A (AEADGBE) or somethin similiar bar with your thumb on the fret hand, this will give you some sick extreme speed for rythym work to set up your leads, if you really wanna get fukin brutal( as I like to ) going from nut to bridge small circles counter clockwise , from bridge to nut clockwise , may take some getting used to at first but, you will be amazed how quickly your chops speed increases,


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 3, 2009)

Dark Epic said:


> After reading all these suggestion I started putting my technique under a microscope, and something I never realized I do in Alternate picking that might help you out ... on the desension(moving down the neck) I pick in a clockwise pattern extremely tight , and on ascension, I pick counterclockwise also tight. And another way to increase speed with like a sus4 chord in dropped A (AEADGBE) or somethin similiar bar with your thumb on the fret hand, this will give you some sick extreme speed for rythym work to set up your leads, if you really wanna get fukin brutal( as I like to ) going from nut to bridge small circles counter clockwise , from bridge to nut clockwise , may take some getting used to at first but, you will be amazed how quickly your chops speed increases,



actually interesting post about the 'small circles' thing.

an old friend of mine (who if you guys want I'll post a paul gilbert cover I did with) was a SICK sweeper, but a bit weak on his scales, did the 'small circles' thing. You can't even tell from the video how totally epic this guy's sweeps were. Like... three-four octaves of a single Maj6 chord. or something. idk it was years ago lol. and he totally taught me a lot of what I now know about using feeling and emotion in solos

but anyway, yea, I would actually totally advice _against_ circles for alternate picking. For economy picking, absolutely, and apparently for sweeping absolutely too.

then again, I think I might go practice it a little bit!

but imo circles are not part of the proper motion to alternate pick at very fast speeds. I notice a lot of people doing 'extra' stuff like that when they pick slow. It tends to lessen the 'machine-gun' effect, which imo is the whole point of 'strict' alternate picking. But its great stuff for that 'bubbly' sound. ok I'll stop now 

Btw to clarify, alternate picking is UDUDUDUDUDUDUD.

some people pick DUUDUUDUUDUUDUUD (if playing, say an ascending 3-note-per string scale) and call this 'alternate picking'. It's economy picking.

i just clarify this, because while that guy was an epic guitar player, he and others i have met didn't realize this. And neither did I, until I really watched that one Paul Gilbert video.

Also, just watch all of those classic guitar instructionals. Intense Rock, the MAB one, the Rusty Cooley stuff, etc. All of it is just really motivating and good. Oh yea, left out whatever the Petrucci one was called.


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## jimmyshred (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice. 



> but imo circles are not part of the proper motion to alternate pick at very fast speeds. I notice a lot of people doing 'extra' stuff like that when they pick slow. It tends to lessen the 'machine-gun' effect, which imo is the whole point of 'strict' alternate picking. But its great stuff for that 'bubbly' sound.


That there is what Im after so yeah, hopefully with all of the things that has been listen I can get slightly closer to it.


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