# ENGL, Help me choose



## Disappear_85 (Mar 28, 2016)

Hello everyone, First i'd like to say this post contain some weird mumbling, I need your help deciding on one of these heads and i can't really go out and play them,

Engl blackmore or Engl Savage, now im sure most would recommend and engl savage but its a bit pricey and I'd have to save up more, I cant justify the price for many options i wont be needing, and i will mention a couple of things that are a turn off for me in a savage.

first i should mention that its for home use and maybe jam with a drummer, i play in standard E tuning,D# and maybe D standard, Ain't going lower than that, And mostly I'm playing Iced earth and Metallica kind of rhythm, So i only need 2 channels, Clean and HiGain rhythm, dial and forget type of guy.

I like the blackmore for simplicity inside and out, people say it's identical to the savage, but from the clips I've heard the savage got more bottom end and bite to it, so I'm not 100% sure that the blackmore would be ideal for the type of music I'm into.

the savage is a beast, But got way more option that i would ever need, the only thing that draws me to the savage is tube protection fuses (ECS) which the blackmore doesn't have.

The blackmore has 1 PCB inside which is cool, if something went south, it would be easier to diagnose and maybe repair, while the savage and its many option you wouldn't be able to know where to start trouble shooting.

NOTE: where i live there is NO techs, and by no i mean none in whole country, so if something went south I'm on my own, But re tube and bias i can do on my own.

Will the blackmore have the advantage over the savage in my case?

one last question, Do tube amps need servicing beside changing tubes? assuming you don't get a factory defective amp to begin with, what kind of other service is needed, I've read some gigged with their amps and everything is good, while other saying their amps need to be serviced, What kind of service are we looking for? and can it be done by me? As there is NO tech in my country.

will the blackmore be able to pull iced earth kind of rhythm? Or should i get the savage with the tube protection circuit? or those fuses don't matter much?

Thank you, and excuse my English, and im waiting for some feed back to pull the trigger.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Mar 28, 2016)

Get the Savage. I've played both and have owned the Savage 120 for sometime. The Blackmore sounds similar too, and was inspired by the Savage... but one can not cop the tones of the others. The Savage has a few extra features, but they are worth the extra money. There are not a bunch of extraneous un-used features like those found on the SE for example.

Replacing and biasing tubes is about the most maintenance you will normally need. Sometimes things will go wrong, but a decent tech should be able to sort it out for you.


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## Disappear_85 (Mar 29, 2016)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Get the Savage. I've played both and have owned the Savage 120 for sometime. The Blackmore sounds similar too, and was inspired by the Savage... but one can not cop the tones of the others. The Savage has a few extra features, but they are worth the extra money. There are not a bunch of extraneous un-used features like those found on the SE for example.
> 
> Replacing and biasing tubes is about the most maintenance you will normally need. Sometimes things will go wrong, but a decent tech should be able to sort it out for you.




Thank you for the response, So without a tech in town there is nothing i can do?

How is the Savage held up while you had it?


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## Wizard of Ozz (Mar 29, 2016)

Disappear_85 said:


> Thank you for the response, So without a tech in town there is nothing i can do?
> 
> How is the Savage held up while you had it?



There is a lot you can do, but you need to learn how to troubleshoot first, and then repair. Not something you just jump in to.

The Savage has been great. No issues.


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## Jaek-Chi (Mar 29, 2016)

Not been able to play a Blackmore myself, but i have an ENGL Savage 120, and it's killed the other 236245234 amps i've owned. Cleans, crunch, and especially gain channel. Best of luck man, my vote is for the savage


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## Great Satan (Mar 29, 2016)

I vaguely remeber reading somewhere that the E 530 is the preamp from the Savage (or based on it, or something)..

Is that true?


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## Petar Bogdanov (Mar 30, 2016)

Great Satan said:


> I vaguely remeber reading somewhere that the E 530 is the preamp from the Savage (or based on it, or something)..
> 
> Is that true?



The official word from Engl is that it's the "closest" to a Savage 120. No two models from Engl sound exactly the same, though.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Mar 30, 2016)

If tube am isn't broken then the only thing you need to do is every once in a while replace the power tubes, and then once in a blue moon the preamp tubes.

Tube amps are also fairly simple beasts as well, so anything inside that blows, you can normally just buy the resistor / capacitor / whatever and fix it, but you have to be confident about working with very high voltages.

Also, when it comes to a tech, for a tube amp you basically need someone who used to work on old vacuum tube powered radios or the like, they are old guys these days and it's becoming a generally lost art form. 

As valve amps are fairly simple, and power amps are fairly standard in layout (they don't change much) any dude that knows about audio tube amps whether it's old radio, hifi or the like should be able to repair it if it goes majorly wrong. Those guys are out there, just need to look outside the guitar world sometimes.


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## Sumsar (Mar 30, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> The official word from Engl is that it's the "closest" to a Savage 120. No two models from Engl sound exactly the same, though.



Seriously? So if I plug my e530 through the poweramp of my powerball I should almost have a Savage? Ofc assuming that the poweramp sections are fairly similar.
I have wanted to try a savage for a long time, but apparently I almost have one sitting at home


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## Petar Bogdanov (Mar 30, 2016)

Sumsar said:


> Seriously? So if I plug my e530 through the poweramp of my powerball I should almost have a Savage? Ofc assuming that the poweramp sections are fairly similar.
> I have wanted to try a savage for a long time, but apparently I almost have one sitting at home



It should definitely get you in the ballpark. EQ is obviously different, though, and it's a pig part of a preamp's sound.


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## Sumsar (Mar 30, 2016)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> It should definitely get you in the ballpark. EQ is obviously different, though, and it's a pig part of a preamp's sound.



Very cool! I tried it once some years ago when I got the powerball and actually had the two amps/preamps at the same location and remembering it sounding great, so that is defiantly a road I have to try and go down next time I have to record something


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## Jaek-Chi (Mar 30, 2016)

It's funny, i see a lot of people saying the Savage is good. Rarely bad comments. But they are always just good comments, never GREAT comments.

For me, i've never played an amp that comes CLOSE in it's overall gain tones. I will add that i'm yet to try a few major gain heads, super keen to try a VHT/Fryette, but everything else has just been nothing. Had an old GH100L many moons ago and remember loving it. Picked up a VH100R the other day and its nice, but man it doesn't even hold a candle to the Savage. I'll never be able to talk them up enough.


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## Disappear_85 (Mar 31, 2016)

So Savage Vs Blackmore = Savage wins

What about the Blackmore Vs Fireball 100

For Iced earth kind of rhythm


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## Rawkmann (Apr 1, 2016)

Disappear_85 said:


> So Savage Vs Blackmore = Savage wins
> 
> What about the Blackmore Vs Fireball 100
> 
> For Iced earth kind of rhythm



Honestly for Iced Earth tone I might suggest the Fireball 100 over the Blackmore. Its definitely a darker voiced amp closer to their usual tone. Blackmore would be voiced too bright IMO.


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## Cobhc221 (Apr 5, 2016)

i would highly suggest you look into the Engl Artist edition. if your a fan of awesome cleans and brutal british grunt from 4 EL34s.

its basis comes from the Ritchie blackmoore amp and it sounds close if not better than an Engl Invader 100. its also a 4 channel amp. most people don't realize it untill they play around with the blackmoore.

id suggest that the engl savage 6ow ( If you can find one ), engl fireball 100, engl Extreme Aggression ( very hard to come by )


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## Disappear_85 (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks guys for all the responses 
I have come to terms that the Savage has way more options and knobs and buttons that i would ever know what to do with. 

now I'm down on 2 choices 

Engl Blackmore - 1500 USD
Engl Fireball 100 - 975 USD

Both new and both prices with shipping 

I'm leaning towards the blackmore as I've read countless posts about the fireball 100 being aimed for death metal and down tuned playing.

But the Fireball price sounds good

I only need 2 channels, Good clean, And Hi-gain for metal Galloping picking style ( Iced earth, Metallica ) and i want to be able to switch from the the 2 sounds without adjusting the EQ each time.

Which one would do the trick, and sound close to E530 preamp. As i like the sounds I'm getting out of it even when I'm using it with a rocktron velocity amp

I already Got the Engl pro 2x12 Cab with V30s


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## BrutalExorcist (Apr 7, 2016)

If you enjoy the E530, then Engl does make the E840/50 power amp at around the price range of the Blackmore which should work well with the E530. Before a final decision, is a tube power amp paired with the E530 something you would rule out?

The E530 / Blackmore / Savage are all somewhat similar as far as I've read. Be aware that the Blackmore and Fireball both have shared EQ sections between clean and hi-gain channels, which means you'll potentially have to sacrifice tone quality on one to get the sound you want on the other, and that may not be what you're looking for if I properly understood your desire to not adjust EQ between clean and hi-gain channels.

I can't speak on whether you'll enjoy the Blackmore or Fireball more. I can tell you I enjoy my E530 though.


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## Hachetjoel (Apr 7, 2016)

I honestly just really didn't like the Powerball, I'd go blackmore.


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## elucia69 (Apr 7, 2016)

its not about what you READ, nor about what you hear in clips. Play both then choose.

The Blackmore was my first Engl. Played it for a year, tweeked it, and knew Engl was for me. Then, I UPGRADED (thats what it actually is) and have been sticking to my Savage ever since. It's just a step beyond in everything. It cuts through, and thats that.

The only fault I give it is that it NEEDS nice glass AND is very picky on the cabinet. It gels right with an Engl Pro (and/or XXL) or a Vader. In this way, it IS expensive, even through indirect costs.

But hey, you want to sound good alone AND in any band/live situation, get the Blackmore. You want to crush it and never look back? go with the Savage. It'll make you stop posting questions about "what amp is best"....

Cheers.


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## karjim (Apr 7, 2016)

Great Satan said:


> I vaguely remeber reading somewhere that the E 530 is the preamp from the Savage (or based on it, or something)..
> 
> Is that true?


It is actually the preamp section of an Engl Screamer...The savage is the son of the Engl Sovereign
The Blackmore is a simple version of a Savage but some heavy mods...Less gain and more roar open sound...Lesd tight and focused


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## BrutalExorcist (Apr 7, 2016)

elucia69 said:


> its not about what you READ, nor about what you hear in clips. Play both then choose.




True for sure. Given Disappear_85 lives in Kuwait, I'm not sure how easily he can get his hands on multiple Engl amps to try, so having an educated guess if that's the least he could get would help him out a lot. As you said though, still doesn't replace playing both in person.




karjim said:


> It is actually the preamp section of an Engl Screamer...The savage is the son of the Engl Sovereign
> The Blackmore is a simple version of a Savage but some heavy mods...Less gain and more roar open sound...Lesd tight and focused




Very handy information to have, thanks!


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## elucia69 (Apr 7, 2016)

karjim said:


> The savage is the son of the Engl Sovereign



I'm not sure this is accurate. I believe the Sovereing is the combo version of the Invader?


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## Disappear_85 (Apr 7, 2016)

Very true, there isn't any tube amps where i live, so trying them is out of the question.

Sorry guys seems I've dragged the subject for very long, but every piece of info helps.

About the shared EQ of the blackmore, all i want to use is 2 channels, Clean and higan, Think Metallica fade to black and unforgiven, where I'll be switching between the channels during the song, is this hard to achieve with the shared EQ?

Anybody tried the retro tube? separate EQ on that amp

The savage is a beast, but i think it will be too much for a simpleton like me


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## Jaek-Chi (Apr 7, 2016)

elucia69 said:


> its not about what you READ, nor about what you hear in clips. Play both then choose.
> 
> The Blackmore was my first Engl. Played it for a year, tweeked it, and knew Engl was for me. Then, I UPGRADED (thats what it actually is) and have been sticking to my Savage ever since. It's just a step beyond in everything. It cuts through, and thats that.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more, especially about the Savage pairing well with the Vader cab. I run a Vader 4x12 and it's crushing.


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## Krucifixtion (Apr 7, 2016)

Jaek-Chi said:


> Couldn't agree more, especially about the Savage pairing well with the Vader cab. I run a Vader 4x12 and it's crushing.



Yes, I have an ENGL Invader into a Vader 4x12. It kills!


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## Jaek-Chi (Apr 8, 2016)

Krucifixtion said:


> Yes, I have an ENGL Invader into a Vader 4x12. It kills!



Yeah dude, i have the Savage and the Invader. The Savage is a little less 'ball crushing', but i find is a tiny bit tighter and crunchier. For me, the Vader is such a massive sounding cab that it works well with the Savage, but even though i do like the Savage a little more overall, the Invader is just absolutely fharkin ball tearing! Both are so good.


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## DarkCide (Sep 29, 2016)

Owned a Powerball, Savage and now an Ironball. All of them sweet. If volume no issue Savage for me. For smaller rooms and low volume Ironball all the way.


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## dongh1217 (Oct 1, 2016)

I run a savage 120 with reborn dual recto in stereo setup, super crunchy, I mean crunchy as F$%^&k


Previously had a screamer and a v1 powerball, played most of available ENGLs, they're all sweet as amps.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Oct 7, 2016)

I'd go for the Savage with KT88s personally. One of my all time favorite amps. But the Blackmore is nasty with a good OD in front of it. It would not be a bad choice at all. The ENGL Artist Edition is rad as F*** too! But hard to come across. 

But for your tastes I would venture a slight risk and look for an Extreme Aggression, the signature amp for Mille P. of Kreator. They are very rare and hard to find but pop up from time to time used for $1500-$1800. I guarantee it would satisfy beyond if you could find one. Based around the Fireball but tuned for thrash. I jammed on one and loved it. 

But otherwise the Savage would be worth saving for. None of your options are bad by any stretch though!

Kuwait? Sweet dude I've been in and out of the country for military deployments. I was so intrigued by all the green plants decorating highway exits and the irrigation system ran to keep them healthy (each plant had it's own irrigation line; this could not be cheap). I also remember feeling like someone had a blow dryer in my face while it was also 117 degrees outside (July timeframe). Really neat cities and food; it was always a good experience. Hope you find what you are looking for in tone!


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## chassless (Oct 7, 2016)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> I also remember feeling like someone had a blow dryer in my face



yup, sounds like the Gulf alright.


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## MetalHead40 (Oct 9, 2016)

I love a good necro post

That aside, the Savage 120 is ....ing amazingly tight, crunchy and aggressive. I also own the FB100 and its just as mean, not as tight unless boosted, but has much bigger balls. The Savage is upper mids bark and bite while the FB100 is low mids grunt and growl. Love em both and don't plan on ever letting either one go.


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## rd990 (Jul 10, 2017)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> But for your tastes I would venture a slight risk and look for an Extreme Aggression, the signature amp for Mille P. of Kreator. They are very rare and hard to find but pop up from time to time used for $1500-$1800. I guarantee it would satisfy beyond if you could find one. Based around the Fireball but tuned for thrash. I jammed on one and loved it.


The Engl E636 Extreme Aggression Mille Petrozza signature model is nutz. I just purchased a NIB Sealed 220v/50hz version from a seller in Belgium and had it shipped to USA. To use in the USA you either need a step up transformer (device you plug into that up-converts USA wall electricity to 220 EU power the amp can drink for under $80 USD). The other option I was told by Engl in Germany is to replace the 220v transformer with a USA spec output transformer (the output transformer with a USA fireball transformer -- Engl E635 and E636 use same output transformer) which according to a Fuchs amplifiers, an Engl authorized repair shop and boutique amp builder, the part is $175 plus $200 labor).
The E636's midrange punch exceeded my expectations, cuts through like a sledgehammer, and has nice gain structure. The studio has an Engl Blackmore, Engl PB2, 6505+, orange rockerverb 100 mk3, Randall EOD88, Randall Satan, Egnater Armageddon, Mesa Boogie Dual Rec, Marshall YJM, Marshall Kerry King JCM 800, Marshall Silver Jubilee, DSL 100, and Diesel Hagen.
If you can find one, you shouldn't be disappointed unless you are trying to get bedroom style super scooped buzzy tones -- the mids aren't honky or overwhelming, but the amp doesn't do the hollowed out midrange "I don't want to be heard if anyone else is playing an instrument at the same time as I am playing tone with a razor thin/fizzy top end that's like fingernails on a chalk board -- if you're looking for that bedroom only tone ... look elsewhere because it wasn't built for that. This amp is heavy, tight & brutal with lots of punch, definition and clarity.


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## rd990 (Jul 10, 2017)

rd990 said:


> The Engl E636 Extreme Aggression Mille Petrozza signature model is nutz. I just purchased a NIB Sealed 220v/50hz version from a seller in Belgium and had it shipped to USA. To use in the USA you either need a step up transformer (device you plug into that up-converts USA wall electricity to 220 EU power the amp can drink for under $80 USD). The other option I was told by Engl in Germany is to replace the 220v transformer with a USA spec output transformer (the output transformer with a USA fireball transformer -- Engl E635 and E636 use same output transformer) which according to a Fuchs amplifiers, an Engl authorized repair shop and boutique amp builder, the part is $175 plus $200 labor).
> The E636's midrange punch exceeded my expectations, cuts through like a sledgehammer, and has nice gain structure. The studio has an Engl Blackmore, Engl PB2, 6505+, orange rockerverb 100 mk3, Randall EOD88, Randall Satan, Egnater Armageddon, Mesa Boogie Dual Rec, Marshall YJM, Marshall Kerry King JCM 800, Marshall Silver Jubilee, DSL 100, and Diesel Hagen.
> If you can find one, you shouldn't be disappointed unless you are trying to get bedroom style super scooped buzzy tones -- the mids aren't honky or overwhelming, but the amp doesn't do the hollowed out midrange "I don't want to be heard if anyone else is playing an instrument at the same time as I am playing tone with a razor thin/fizzy top end that's like fingernails on a chalk board -- if you're looking for that bedroom only tone ... look elsewhere because it wasn't built for that. This amp is heavy, tight & brutal with lots of punch, definition and clarity.


Diezel*. Damn auto correct!


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## MYGFH (Jul 10, 2017)

deleted necro post


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