# Help with sloppy playing. . . . . .



## 7stringDemon (Apr 20, 2012)

Hellp all!!

I have a question. My good friend and rhythm guitarist in my band is having an issue with his playing. Well, I guess I should say that **I'm** having an issue with his playing. He is just sloppy as hell. He can't make anything other than 0-0-0-1 sound good. It suck too because he can actually play pretty well. The problem is that he doesn't know how to mute the strings that he's not using or that he can't get things in time or really much of anything that a guitarist should know how to do. Long story short: he has no technique. He can't let the notes flow out smoothly. He's really clunky and awkward with his picking hand.

And I have to tune his fucking guitar for him . I taught him harmonic tuning so hopefully that problem won't be around much longer.

So what are some ways that I can help him out? I used to be just as bad until I finally started noticing it and worked my ass off at it. The problem is that he doesn't notice it. He thinks that he's doing a fan-fucking-tastic job! And I don't really remember what I did that helped me clean up. I just remember playing a LOT of old Korn songs.

So what can I get him to do so that I can help him help himself? Because I don't want to kick him out. I fucking love the kid. He's like a brother to me.

FYI: I've already got him set up on a metronome.

Thanks a ton guys!


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## MetalDaze (Apr 20, 2012)

Well, if he doesn't get it, then you have a tough road ahead. He's got to realize where he's at and want to get better.

Maybe record a riff with you playing vs him to help point out the differences. Be prepared to give him some "tough love".


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## Winspear (Apr 20, 2012)

7stringDemon said:


> So what are some ways that I can help him out? I used to be just as bad until I finally started noticing it and worked my ass off at it. The problem is that he doesn't notice it. He thinks that he's doing a fan-fucking-tastic job!



God, so much this haha.
I didn't realised until I tried to record my own tracks and couldn't get it to sound clear. I knew I had slight tightness issues in terms of timing from double tracking and to work on that, but I didn't realise about general technique and making stuff sound good until a long time after.

It all clicked for me when I downloaded some high quality DI stems (Nerve End - Arsonist, to be precise - they have some great stems out) and was able to mix it very well pretty much instantly. I heard how clean their DI was and it all made sense. 

I fixed it by always learning songs SLOWLY from then on (always had been a problem because I can sight read complicated stuff so easily but you obviously have to spend time getting the technique down!). Very slowly, with a metronome. Planning what fingers to use as most efficient movement. Planning what to uppick and downpick. Paying attention to what to mute and how.

So yep, +1 to recording! It's not until you hear yourself 3rd person and compare it to something professional that you really know the difference.


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 20, 2012)

That's what I'll try first then. I'll have him record a quick riff so that he can see.

Thanks for the advise!!! Anything else I should consider?


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## wlfers (Apr 20, 2012)

Pretty much everything above. Recording yourself + playing with a metronome.
There are sometimes even now where I think I'm playing something decently until I record it haha.


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 20, 2012)

My timing and sloppyness isn't the trouble.

Advise appreciated though


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## mr_rainmaker (Apr 20, 2012)

practice practice practice,on his part

on yours patience. 

I took on a beginner last week,of which I haven`t taught a beginner in a LONG LONG time,at least a decade,patience in the key,don`t overwhelm him with too much a first,try just one thing a day for a week and see if that helps.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 20, 2012)

Hm. Maybe you should talk to him about articulation. Legato, staccato, tenuto, marcato and all that. You can make the same note sound really different by the way that you attack and release it. Awareness of that sort of thing may help him to be a little more exact in his playing.


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 20, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Hm. Maybe you should talk to him about articulation. Legato, staccato, tenuto, marcato and all that. You can make the same note sound really different by the way that you attack and release it. Awareness of that sort of thing may help him to be a little more exact in his playing.


 
Wise advise! Thank you!

I taught him today that pulling off to an open note and picking that open note sound very different. He didn't quite get it


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## Solodini (Apr 21, 2012)

Try not to make articulation seem too posh and poncy. It could be easy to make it seem like these various articulations will interrupt his br00tz so try to explain their uses as directly and applicably as possible. Marcato can be explained as making one chug of the sequence stand out more by playing it more firmly. Staccato can be explained in relation to high dissonant chords a la Aliases et al. You get the idea. 

Try not to make it feel like you're preaching to him. Record something just as a matter of having it recorded and when he does his takes, you can just point out and explain individual aspects of his playing which can be improved in the next take. Make sure to compliment the improvement so it doesn't seem like you're constantly telling him off.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 21, 2012)

Soldini said:


> Try not to make it feel like you're preaching to him. Record something just as a matter of having it recorded and when he does his takes, you can just point out and explain individual aspects of his playing which can be improved in the next take. Make sure to compliment the improvement so it doesn't seem like you're constantly telling him off.



I agree with this, but...



> Staccato can be explained in relation to high dissonant chords a la Aliases et al. You get the idea.



I wouldn't relate an articulation to a particular chord or style. It's irrelevant information. Legato is legato, staccato is staccato. You can do either with any note anywhere.



> Try not to make articulation seem too posh and poncy.



Absolutely. You'll probably lose the guy if you start throwing terminology around. I can't imagine dealing without tenuto and martelé and all that, but my band's idea of fun is playing our songs in two keys simultaneously. You can always say "make that more/less connected", and cover the same spectrum. Whatever you try to communicate to your bandmate, just make sure it's in terms that he can understand and that are meaningful to him. Teaching a musician their craft is usually a pain in the ass because we like to think that music is something that comes from the heart or some BS and we don't need to learn anything to facilitate our art. I take criticism on my musicianship very personally, even when I know I'm playing something incorrectly, so I'm of the opinion that everybody is like this and that such situations should be handled in a way that shows support and really breaks things down to the basic level.


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## Solodini (Apr 21, 2012)

You're right about articulation being just articulation, I just meant it could help to give examples of how and where it can be used beneficially, with relevant examples.


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## Painhawg (Apr 21, 2012)

He could be deaf to what you hear. There may be no difference in the sound of a pull off, or picked open string to his ear, so he may not be aware of the sloppy. Try and see if he hears bass notes or treble notes better. I have a difficulty of separating fast high notes, and seem to play them a step low(but it sounds on) but with bass I am spot on


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## Jahanasaurus (Apr 21, 2012)

Bit of a shameless plug but my videos may help him out? it's all about teaching modern and advanced guitar techniques at much more manageable speeds. you can check them out at AccessibleLeadGuitar - YouTube

Once again, sorry for the shameless plug!


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 23, 2012)

Jahanasaurus said:


> Bit of a shameless plug but my videos may help him out? it's all about teaching modern and advanced guitar techniques at much more manageable speeds. you can check them out at AccessibleLeadGuitar - YouTube
> 
> Once again, sorry for the shameless plug!


 
Shameless but helpful!! He couldn't play a single thing right in your video's! Which is good. It means that they will be helpful. Only problem is that after he played/tried one of them (very sloppily), he would say "Nailed it dude. I don't need these vids!". Well, that is until. . . . . .

. . . . I recorded his playing without telling him. I felt so bad too! I showed them to him when he wasn't looking and he asked "Who's that sloppy fucker?". His heart pretty much sank when said it was him. But the ice has been broken and he said that he's going to start practicing.

Thanks a ton for making those videos!!!


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## Jahanasaurus (Apr 24, 2012)

7stringDemon said:


> Shameless but helpful!! He couldn't play a single thing right in your video's! Which is good. It means that they will be helpful. Only problem is that after he played/tried one of them (very sloppily), he would say "Nailed it dude. I don't need these vids!". Well, that is until. . . . . .
> 
> . . . . I recorded his playing without telling him. I felt so bad too! I showed them to him when he wasn't looking and he asked "Who's that sloppy fucker?". His heart pretty much sank when said it was him. But the ice has been broken and he said that he's going to start practicing.
> 
> Thanks a ton for making those videos!!!



Thanks dude! I'm glad they helped! Tell your buddy if he wants some additional advice from me we could arrange a lesson via skype or something! I'll whip him into shape!


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## VBCheeseGrater (Apr 24, 2012)

7stringDemon said:


> The problem is that he doesn't notice it. He thinks that he's doing a fan-fucking-tastic job!



Normally dudes that don't even realize when they stink are never going to be good. It's just not in the DNA for them. He's probably good at knitting or football. I'm sure there are exceptions but guys that just haven't practiced enough "Get it", they know when it's bad. 

People that are oblivious...well, i sense major frustration in your future!! Better to find someone else to play with if its bothering you too much.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 24, 2012)

vbshredder said:


> Normally dudes that don't even realize when they stink are never going to be good. It's just not in the DNA for them. He's probably good at knitting or football. I'm sure there are exceptions but guys that just haven't practiced enough "Get it", they know when it's bad.



I disagree. People that aren't trained have no way of monitoring their playing. Give them a bit of insight, and they may see their playing from a new perspective. We all start 100% ignorant, but as you become more experienced in a subject, you pick up on more and more nuances. Knowledge is power and all that.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Apr 24, 2012)

^^ i get what you are saying, it's valid up to a certain point. What i'm saying is some people are just not cut out for certain things. I could be totally wrong about this guy, but in my experience, trying to force someone to "get it" that just doesn't can be quite frustrating.

Example - if someone thought they could teach me to be an NFL QB, well they would be in for alot of disappointment!!


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 24, 2012)

Well, he passed the first step (admiting that he has a problem). Now we can build from there. And I'll be tracking both guitars and we'll be staying away from live shows until he can tighten up a bit. There is a BIT of improvement over the last couple days. And now that I have a new head, I'm letting him use my old Randall RG100SC so that he can get a bit of a tighter tone. It seems that part of his problem was his amp (15 watt Spider III )


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 25, 2012)

vbshredder said:


> ^^ i get what you are saying, it's valid up to a certain point. What i'm saying is some people are just not cut out for certain things. I could be totally wrong about this guy, but in my experience, trying to force someone to "get it" that just doesn't can be quite frustrating.
> 
> Example - if someone thought they could teach me to be an NFL QB, well they would be in for alot of disappointment!!


Okay, I'm on board with you for this.


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## asher (Apr 25, 2012)

7stringDemon said:


> Well, he passed the first step (admiting that he has a problem). Now we can build from there. And I'll be tracking both guitars and we'll be staying away from live shows until he can tighten up a bit. There is a BIT of improvement over the last couple days. And now that I have a new head, I'm letting him use my old Randall RG100SC so that he can get a bit of a tighter tone. It seems that part of his problem was his amp (15 watt Spider III )



No wonder he has no idea wtf he sounds like.


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## niffnoff (Apr 26, 2012)

Line 6... OH GOD THE TONE IT HURTS....

But seriously, a tighter tone will improve the sound, but he still needs to get technique>technology


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## asher (Apr 26, 2012)

niffnoff said:


> Line 6... OH GOD THE TONE IT HURTS....
> 
> But seriously, a tighter tone will improve the sound, but he still needs to get technique>technology



I finally got rid of my Line 6 I had for an while-I'm-at-home-over-break amp for an HT-5R. I'm no great player by ANY stretch, but dear god you really have no idea wtf you're playing through the distortion on that pile of shit.


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## nkri (Apr 26, 2012)

7stringDemon said:


> he can actually play pretty well.





7stringDemon said:


> He can't let the notes flow out smoothly. He's really clunky and awkward with his picking hand. And I have to tune his fucking guitar for him




Well...definitely introduce him to the metronome and show him why it's good/important to practice with it. Also talk about the direct correlation between tension and speed/accuracy and how slowing everything down with the metronome will improve his technique very quickly if he's diligent. Also, as others have already said, he should record EVERYTHING (that includes practicing scales and exercises, etc.) and listen to it later when he's away from the guitar...he'll notice little mistakes and nuances that he's probably not aware of when he's playing and that'll help him figure out what he has to practice/improve. Good luck


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 26, 2012)

Write stuff w/ more harmonies that will force him to keep up with you. If he can't hear that he's failing then he's either in denial or musically retarded. It's pretty easy to tell when you miss a harmony.


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 26, 2012)

Then he must be musically retarded because he doesn't have a clue.

I've got some scales and riffs written down for him. A lot actually. Almost 100. All little things that helped me with my technique and gave me my own style of playing that makes me the most comfortable so that I can play at my best. I told him that I'll be doing all of the writing/recording until he can pick up the pace. Guess I'll have to borrow guitarists for shows . Luckily, I have some good friends that can keep up. Sadly, they're all in bands so they can't stay for more than a show or 2. But I know enough people to keep things steady for a bit.

He's making improvement. Slow but steady. my Randall RG100SC, TS9 and GE7 are all at his place now (I don't need any of it since I just got a new head) so he has a pretty good tone to work with. It's helping a lot but he still has no technique of any kind.

It's like a robot playing guitar. But it's malfunctioning


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## BluesPlayer76 (Apr 27, 2012)

A lot of players are in denial about their playing abilities. If he can't even realize he's out of tune, then ... he needs an intervention (and maybe a lesson on intervals too but whatever...)

A lot of good suggestions here but this is my recommendation, of which some is a repeat of others:

1) Practice with a clean tone. Distortion is soooo great at covering up mistakes. Muddy it more with reverb and a delay and you have ** (I'm not starting a band war but some guys really rely on effects).

2) The metronome is a great idea but when I've introduced it to students too soon,, they may be concentrating so hard on what their doing that they don't listen to it.

3) Break down the playing into categories: such as:
a) 5 minutes with alternating picking on 3 note/string major scales
b) 5 minutes legato playing with same major scales
c) 5 minutes double tapping practice in those major scales

By doing this, it gets him out of his comfort level. We all pick up the ax and play the same ols shit but if he can get disciplined about this - this is 15 minutes of serious work.

4) Once a week record himself and he needs to be honest with what he needs to work on.

5) Private lessons - send him to me LOL Or at least my website. It's all free content and written by me.

Bluesplayer76
http://fastfingersguitarlessons.com


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 28, 2012)

Great advise!! I'll actually do some of that as well. My legato and tapping are a bit off. I'm decent at both but could be better. So thanks from both of us on that one!!!

Oh, and he just bought a Rhodes Colossus H100 

That is too much amp for him!!! He's having a hard enough time with my Randall! He doesn't even use anything other than heavy distortion!!!! Not counting during practice. WHY does he need an amp that good versatile? Ah well, his money, his choice. Guess I'm just a bit jealous. I have to work my ass off at two jobs to afford something that nice. He just has a big family and saved up from birthday money .


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## BluesPlayer76 (Apr 29, 2012)

7stringDemon said:


> Great advise!! I'll actually do some of that as well. My legato and tapping are a bit off. I'm decent at both but could be better. So thanks from both of us on that one!!!
> 
> Oh, and he just bought a Rhodes Colossus H100
> 
> That is too much amp for him!!! He's having a hard enough time with my Randall! He doesn't even use anything other than heavy distortion!!!! Not counting during practice. WHY does he need an amp that good versatile? Ah well, his money, his choice. Guess I'm just a bit jealous. I have to work my ass off at two jobs to afford something that nice. He just has a big family and saved up from birthday money .



$3000 head for a guy who can't play. 

Sounds about right. Dump 1/3 of the money into a decent teacher; it would help him more.

Just my $.02


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 29, 2012)

I completely agree. I'm not saying that **I'm** at the level of being worthy of a Colossus but there's no way in hell that he is.

But hey, his money, his choice. If he doesn't want a teacher, he won't get one. There's no way in hell that I'll pay for one for him.

Practice was a let-down today. I guess he paid for the thing earlier a while ago and it just came yesterday. So I brought my B-52 to his place and was put to shame all day by his amp. And he still hasn't made enough improvment to be out of the "sloppy" catagory. On the bright side, he has to work even harder now. That head doesn't like to hide mistakes . So even after all of that practice, the head showed how truely bad it really was.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Apr 29, 2012)

The best thing to do is record some basic (or complete) demo's of the tracks you will be performing together, tight and to a click track.

Give him a CD or digital copy with two versions; 1 with his part muted, another with his part playing with the mix.

This way he should be able to practice the material, to a click, on a regular basis until it is within his comfort zone.

Don't spend a lot of time on the demo's if it detracts from what your supposed to be doing (promoting and organising live performances), just keep it simple as a learning aid.

Ask him to combine this practice element with the other suggestions from this forum's members.

Good luck! 

With that Colossus he can't hide behind your playing (OP) any longer! Oooops!


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 29, 2012)

Thanks for the advise! And yeah, he really screwed himself over with that head. He plugged into mine and was like "why does yours sound better?"


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## 7stringDemon (Apr 30, 2012)

Maybe I should get this for him!


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