# KKK "White-People Only" flyers sent out. Stay classy, North Carolina



## highlordmugfug (May 23, 2012)

KKK Invites North Carolina Residents To &#8216;Whites-Only&#8217; Cross-Burning | Addicting Info

Racism is certainly dead, and not an issue anymore, and we should stop talking about it.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 23, 2012)

It's never going to die. But what confuses me is how people say that you can snuff out the Westboro Baptist Church by ignoring them and not giving them any press. Are supremacist groups any better? 

What solution is there aside from declaring a season in which you're allowed to open fire on grown men wearing bed sheets?


----------



## highlordmugfug (May 23, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> It's never going to die. But what confuses me is how people say that you can snuff out the Westboro Baptist Church by ignoring them and not giving them any press. Are supremacist groups any better?
> 
> What solution is there aside from declaring a season in which you're allowed to open fire on grown men wearing bed sheets?


The difference is that the WBC thrives, and is able to, BECAUSE they get attention. If no one pays attention to them, they have no basis to sue people, and then no way to fund their activities/travel. I believe they spend around $120,000 a year on travel, pretty much all of which they get from suing people/cities.

Racists like the KKK aren't a baby-factory-lawyer-producing-machine like the WBC is.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 23, 2012)

Fair enough. But that still raises the question of what's to be done. 



> ...it&#8217;s evidently perfectly okay and legal to throw a whites-only cross burning party in North Carolina.



That quote makes it seem like clearly we need some new laws down there, but that seems like a slippery slope.

Blows my mind that we've figured out the Earth *isn't* flat but can't figure out that this type of behavior is stupid as fuck.


----------



## cwhitey2 (May 23, 2012)

The key difference is they have a physical building that they call a 'church' idk of any kkk building. Aslo the Westboro Baptist Church says the 'bible' says they are right 

Both are equally evil imo.


Just my point of view and


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 23, 2012)

I thought the KKK used biblical references to support their assertions (I think most non-atheists try to use a holy text of some kind to support earthly assertions). I can see what you mean, but after reading HighLord's post, it seems they're not viewed the same legally which is the big issue.


----------



## highlordmugfug (May 23, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Fair enough. But that still raises the question of what's to be done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dealing with broad things like racism is (EDIT: are?) much more difficult than something as organized and specific as the WBC.

My call for racism is to acknowledge it and point it out/bring it up. Even if it won't stop people from being idiots, it will make sure everyone knows about it, which (all imo of course) make it much less likely that they will actually DO anything about it. Like dragging people from trucks, beat people up, and shit like that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (May 23, 2012)

Groups like the KKK thrive on hate, they're the embodiment of it. If folks stop paying attention to them and bringing conflict to them, they'll just disappear......even more so than they have in the last century. 

The more that groups like this are excised and put in a corner to yell at the wall, the better. 

The KKK wants you to get angry, because angry people are stupid, they want you to think about how terrible they are because they just want you thinking of them. 

They are very different than the WBC, but there are parallels to how they thrive and keep relevant, while spouting ideas that were in vogue centuries ago. 

Want to destroy groups like this? 
-Stop paying any and all attention to them.
-Educate our children better. 
-Drop this culture of ignorance.

Leave the hate to them. A group so filled with it will tear itself apart when the only ones listening are themselves.


----------



## Church2224 (May 23, 2012)

^ That is probably the best answer to the whole problem honestly.


----------



## cwhitey2 (May 23, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I thought the KKK used biblical references to support their assertions (I think most non-atheists try to use a holy text of some kind to support earthly assertions). I can see what you mean, but after reading HighLord's post, it seems they're not viewed the same legally which is the big issue.



Tu Che


----------



## Xaios (May 23, 2012)

> Join us, the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, for a rally and cross lighting, Saturday, May 26, Harmony, North Carolina. Free Admition [sic]-White People Only. No alcohol, drugs, fighting, glass bottles or weapons. Free on site camping-all major motels in area. *Souvenirs.* Vendors. Food and beverages for Sale. Cross lighting at dusk-a white unity event. Live country band. Security provided by LWK.



As terrible as this whole thing is, I had to laugh at that.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 23, 2012)

I remember hearing about a study with apes in which they placed maybe 10 apes into a cage and in the cage there was a staircase with a bunch of bananas at the top. Any time one of the apes attempted to climb the staircase, the rest of the apes were shocked electrically.

It got to a point where the apes would attack any among them that attempted to climb the staircase. Over time they began switching out apes one by one until eventually none of the apes in the cage were of the initial sample group but their behavior remained the same. Any time an ape attempted to climb the staircase the rest would gang up and attack him.

I guess that's the true definition of "monkey see, monkey do." 

With those kinds of results I wouldn't be surprised if over time the act of ignoring and/or ultimately abandoning that way of thought may catch on and the "beating up of outsiders" might be as simple as shunning them.

Seriously, though, I feel we have a bit of a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do" on both sides. On the racist side of the fence, I'd be really surprised if the vast majority of them could even give you a reason as to why they hate the people they hate. They just do bc that's what they were told/raise around.

On the other side of the fence, a lot of the non-racist folks don't end up actually doing much of anything about it when they witness blatant acts of racism. It seems that most folks do nothing (except start blogs and report about it on the news) for lack of a general concensus on what to do in such situations whereas the other camp can always default to unjustified hate.

Now I'm not saying that non-racist folks need a "leader" per se--that'd be a bit dramatic. But I think someone needs to set an example that speaks to both sides about how this type of thing is to be handled across the board.

It mentions states like Mississippi and Texas and I wonder if the fact that there seem to be known safe havens for this way of thinking has anything to do with it's continued presence. Now I know it couldn't have everything to do with that but maybe it's a large part of it. 

Assuming there weren't places for it to thrive perhaps it could at least be weakened...?

The article also mentions that North Carolina law doesn't seem to have anything written against the fliers that were put up inviting folks to the KKK rally.

Perhaps there's some way the Federal Gov't could put pressure on state legislators to close up some of the holes that allow this sort of thing, but that may just be one fish in an entire bucket of fish to fry...


----------



## renzoip (May 23, 2012)

Maybe the government should send drone attacks to terrorist such as the KKK. 

I kid, I kid. But turning a blind eye on these terrorist won't actually help or make tge problem go away. I wonder where FBI is in these cases? I'm sure they must be busy arresting protesters from OWS


----------



## Painhawg (May 23, 2012)

While I despise the KKK, you cannot be rid of them, until you also rid the country of the Black Panther Party and la Raza.


----------



## Blind Theory (May 24, 2012)

It isn't just eliminating the KKK or the WBC. It is eliminating MS-13, Mafias, Crips, Bloods, Yakuza, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Nortenos, Sorenos, drug cartels, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.....

If you want to get rid of hateful thinking and culture, you need to get rid of hateful entities. The KKK or Aryan Nation or any other white supremacy group is just as hateful and as idiotic as the Crips or MS-13. Both have done and some still do horrible things to this day (physically, the message is horrible either way). The problem here is you can't ignore these kinds of things. You have to take an active stance against it and do some serious trimming to get anywhere. I'm not saying we should go out on the streets in humvees mounted with mini guns to mow down people in gangs but I am saying that some people have to go. Some people need to be taken out like and treated like a terrorist in the middle east. A lot of what people don't know is that, you can take some high level gang member to prison, but unless he is dead, he will still remain high level. Those guys do impressive shit to communicate with the outside world. 

We just need to pick off high level people of any and all gang-type groups until people start to say, "Fuck this, I don't want to be next so I'm out." All that stay in school, don't do drugs, don't join gangs nancy shit doesn't get any message out to anyone is all I'm saying.

...so...yeah....


----------



## Empryrean (May 24, 2012)

Holy shit, I almost cried when I read the thread title as:

*KxK white people only*..

damn, I'm glad it's only the kkk


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 24, 2012)

omg  ^


----------



## Necris (May 24, 2012)

> Now it seems residents in Reidsville, North Carolina are getting inundated with fliers inviting them to a May 26th Ku Klux Klan cross burning, which is intended for white people only. Apparently the fliers dont break a single law. Just in case you were curious, its evidently perfectly okay and legal to throw a whites-only cross burning party in North Carolina.


No shit.
I'm fairly certain that it's perfectly legal to throw a whites-only cross burning party literally anywhere in this country as long as you can find a property that is willing to host it.
I may hate the whole idea of it but that doesn't make it in any way illegal.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 24, 2012)

White power.


----------



## tacotiklah (May 24, 2012)

Rednecks playing Honkey Kong in NC? Shocking. 




Seriously though, while I've never been a fan of the 'head in the sand' approach, Max has the best idea so far. These people thrive on attention and publicity. Mentioning them makes you a part of the problem because you are unwittingly giving the the spotlight that they crave. Don't do their work for them. Let them have their family reunion/love connection parties and leave them to it. Once they start actually breaking the law, then by all means let the cops run a baton up their bigoted asses. Until then, spending time paying any mind to them whatsoever is EXACTLY what they are trying to get you to do. Wanna fight the good fight against their bullshit? Deny them the attention they crave.


----------



## Powermetalbass (May 24, 2012)

Are people actually surprised by this? It's the KKK and North Carolina.


----------



## Pooluke41 (May 24, 2012)

The only white power I believe in is Walter White from Breaking Bad. 

OT: I can imagine that no security firms would want to be hired by them; so the KKK used the "Loyal White Knights".


----------



## Xaios (May 24, 2012)

Powermetalbass said:


> Are people actually surprised by this? It's the KKK and North Carolina.



I think people are more surprised that the KKK still exists than anything.


----------



## renzoip (May 24, 2012)

Painhawg said:


> While I despise the KKK, you cannot be rid of them, until you also rid the country of the Black Panther Party and la Raza.



Why not? If the government really wanted to single them out and declare war on them, they certainly have the capabilities to do it. If they can fight terrorism over seas, they can certainly fight terrorism here. They can and do pick and choose who to fight and when.


----------



## renzoip (May 24, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> Seriously though, while I've never been a fan of the 'head in the sand' approach, Max has the best idea so far. These people thrive on attention and publicity. Mentioning them makes you a part of the problem because you are unwittingly giving the the spotlight that they crave. Don't do their work for them. Let them have their family reunion/love connection parties and leave them to it. Once they start actually breaking the law, then by all means let the cops run a baton up their bigoted asses. Until then, spending time paying any mind to them whatsoever is EXACTLY what they are trying to get you to do. Wanna fight the good fight against their bullshit? Deny them the attention they crave.



I can certainly understand your and Max's point. However, I think that not ignoring them is only part of the strategy. I do think that parallel to that, the government should try to infiltrate their group and set them up so that they can fall for fake "terror plots" and arrest them, this strategy has worked with other groups, so I think it could work with them. 

Also, some public demonstrations against them every once in a while would not be so bad, it's good to ignore them, but occasionally it nice to remind them that people outright reject them. The KKK and other white supremacist groups have over time change it's tactics and are being more subtle in order to influence mainstream politics. They don't wear white robes anymore, now they keep links with mainstream right wing parties in order to influence mainstream politics.


----------



## Xaios (May 24, 2012)

renzoip said:


> I can certainly understand your and Max's point. However, I think that not ignoring them is only part of the strategy. I do think that parallel to that, the government should try to infiltrate their group and set them up so that they can fall for fake "terror plots" and arrest them, this strategy has worked with other groups, so I think it could work with them.



To be completely fair, the government probably does already have moles within the organization. The government already considers them a terrorist organization. Alas, they have to tread carefully, because of the government decided to just one day round up all KKK members without absolutely ROCK-SOLID evidence, the backlash from the general public in some parts of the country would be huge. They'd be calling it "government interference" or some bullshit like that. I'm not saying I'd agree with the reaction, but it would certainly happen. It's harder to convince people that their countrymen are terrorists than it is with foreigners from another country.



renzoip said:


> Also, some public demonstrations against them every once in a while would not be so bad, it's good to ignore them, but occasionally it nice to remind them that people outright reject them. The KKK and other white supremacist groups have over time change it's tactics and are being more subtle in order to influence mainstream politics. They don't wear white robes anymore, now they keep links with mainstream right wing parties in order to influence mainstream politics.



I don't think I agree with that, because when people like that get their backs against the wall, they start acting like martyrs, which is never a good thing.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 24, 2012)

Blind Theory said:


> It isn't just eliminating the KKK or the WBC. It is eliminating MS-13, Mafias, Crips, Bloods, Yakuza, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Nortenos, Sorenos, drug cartels, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.....
> 
> If you want to get rid of hateful thinking and culture, you need to get rid of hateful entities. The KKK or Aryan Nation or any other white supremacy group is just as hateful and as idiotic as the Crips or MS-13. Both have done and some still do horrible things to this day (physically, the message is horrible either way). The problem here is you can't ignore these kinds of things. You have to take an active stance against it and do some serious trimming to get anywhere. I'm not saying we should go out on the streets in humvees mounted with mini guns to mow down people in gangs but I am saying that some people have to go. Some people need to be taken out like and treated like a terrorist in the middle east. A lot of what people don't know is that, you can take some high level gang member to prison, but unless he is dead, he will still remain high level. Those guys do impressive shit to communicate with the outside world.
> 
> ...


 
True... "Stay in school" only really seems to work for those predisposed to such a life. 

It's quite a conundrum to me now that you've brought up that point, though. Peace achieved through war is hardly peace in my opinion, but finding a medium between the two in which one can successfully communicate to both sides (the hateful and the "peaceful" for lack of a better word) seems next to impossible.

Like you said... Taking out high ranking officials in these types of groups would more than likely be discouraging to the grunts who once aspired to such heights, however, it doesn't seem like a solution everyone is willing to get on board with. Not because they don't want to see the issue rectified, but because they may find fault with a solution assumed to bring peace through the use of violence.

I almost wonder if it might do some good to put a little slack in self defense laws and let victims and/or would-be victims handle themselves, but I can see that opening the door for folks to harm others under the self defense pretense.

TL;DR

Basically I agree with your stance on how it should be handled, but I think in practice, getting rid of something like this is just super tough because it's hard to get the ppl (as a whole) on the same page about how things like this should be handled. I think a lot of the resultant bickering/confusion may be impeding "progress." That and the fact that hateful ppl seem to breed like crazy.


----------



## renzoip (May 24, 2012)

Xaios said:


> I don't think I agree with that, because when people like that get their backs against the wall, they start acting like martyrs, which is never a good thing.



Excuse my lack of understanding, but what did you mean by this?


EDIT: I think I got it now. You mean that actively antagonizing the KKK with public demonstrations will make KKK members upset and may give them motivation to carry out further acts of terror, which is never a good thing? Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## highlordmugfug (May 24, 2012)

renzoip said:


> Excuse my lack of understanding, but what did you mean by this?


Instead of being "that hateful sonofabitch who got what was coming to him" they start acting, and the people who agree with them start thinking of them as, and using them as an example of "our great fearless leader, who against all odds stood up for what was right and even though the *insert enemy here* had besieged them on all sides, they stood fast" bullshit.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 24, 2012)

Xaios said:


> It's harder to convince people that their countrymen are terrorists than it is with foreigners from another country.


 
... and it's a damn shame...


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 24, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Instead of being "that hateful sonofabitch who got what was coming to him" they start acting, and the people who agree with them start thinking of them as, and using them as an example of "our great fearless leader, who against all odds stood up for what was right and even though the *insert enemy here* had besieged them on all sides, they stood fast" bullshit.


 
I kinda get it, but hearing the way this notion was voiced thus far on this page, it sounds to me as though ppl are going on the assumption that the majority of our country agrees with them. 

Quite frankly, why should we care if those who agree with terrorists are upset when problems arise? They pay taxes for the gov't to keep them safe from what it has defined to be terror. If they cause it, then that's just sweet sweet irony...


----------



## Xaios (May 24, 2012)

renzoip said:


> Excuse my lack of understanding, but what did you mean by this?



The reason it's better to ignore them is that if people actively went out and protested against them, they would declare themselves as being "persecuted for their beliefs" and would only fight back harder. The WBC already does exactly the same thing.

EDIT: 'd


----------



## highlordmugfug (May 24, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I kinda get it, but hearing the way this notion was voiced thus far on this page, it sounds to me as though ppl are going on the assumption that the majority of our country agrees with them.
> 
> Quite frankly, why should we care if those who agree with terrorists are upset when problems arise? They pay taxes for the gov't to keep them safe from what it has defined to be terror. If they cause it, then that's just sweet sweet irony...


The thing is, stories about martyrs are a great propaganda technique/recruiting tool/morale boosting thing for people. Including shitbag racists/terrorists.


----------



## BucketheadRules (May 24, 2012)

I just found this linked to the article in the OP:

Homosexual Final Solution: Pastor Wants Homosexuals Put Into Concentration Camps (VIDEO) | Addicting Info

It has his contact details at the bottom... positively begging to be spammed with all the hate that can be thrown back at him 

All joking aside, genocide would be best applied not to homosexuals, but to religious extremists and hate preachers like this.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 24, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> The thing is, stories about martyrs are a great propaganda technique/recruiting tool/morale boosting thing for people. Including shitbag racists/terrorists.


 
From that angle it makes sense.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 24, 2012)

BucketheadRules said:


> I just found this linked to the article in the OP:
> 
> Homosexual Final Solution: Pastor Wants Homosexuals Put Into Concentration Camps (VIDEO) | Addicting Info
> 
> ...


 
Concentration camps... I could have sworn we decided those were bad a LONG time ago no matter who you put in them. Can we label home skillet a terrorist and hit him with rockets?


----------



## wlfers (May 24, 2012)

Groups of assholes should be allowed to get together. 

However groups of assholes should not be allowed to get together to plot violence. Some people here have hinted (jokingly or not) at assassination. Honestly if that seems a viable option to some, that's pretty pathetic. Not only because you'd be playing into their game of fear and violence, but because you'd also be admitting that the way to defeat racism is through death instead of through education and logical discussion. 

We have a legal system in place, if they're gathering to mentally jackoff about being better than x people then I don't care as they're not planning on harming x people.

We should be in a healthy enough society that these kind of organizations exist and are willingly shunned instead of considering to alter our first amendment


----------



## Waelstrum (May 24, 2012)

Yeah, are they a terrorist organisation? I thought that they had basically given up on all the lynchings and stuff when they realised that they can't get away with it anymore (back in the 50s or 60s). I was under the impression that now they only meet to discuss how great it is to be one specific race. If that's the case they're protected by the first amendment. Freedom of speech is easy to defend when you agree with what's being said, it becomes important when you disagree with what's being said. If you give the government the power to assassinate people who say things that you don't like, you've also given the government the power to assassinate you for saying something that someone else might not like. If they're not doing anything illegal, then leave them alone.


Also, (aside from being mean and evil and all that) it's dumb to have limited biodiversity in your gene pool by massively reducing the number of potential mates to people who look like you. From a biological standpoint, mixed marriages are better, because it promotes more biodiversity (but now I'm sounding like a mixed supremacist even though I'm white(going back a few generations, then I don't know)).


----------



## Blind Theory (May 25, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Basically I agree with your stance on how it should be handled, but I think in practice, getting rid of something like this is just super tough because it's hard to get the ppl (as a whole) on the same page about how things like this should be handled. I think a lot of the resultant bickering/confusion may be impeding "progress." That and the fact that hateful ppl seem to breed like crazy.



I agree that that is the big problem with it. The only thing I can think of saying that might persuade enough people to get on board is the typical, "what has war and violence ever accomplished? Oh yeah...the birth of the USA, the end of slavery in America, the liberation of millions from Nazi Germany, etc, etc, etc." It is a seemingly overused argument but it has truth to it.


----------



## Xaios (May 25, 2012)

Blind Theory said:


> I agree that that is the big problem with it. The only thing I can think of saying that might persuade enough people to get on board is the typical, "what has war and violence ever accomplished? Oh yeah...the birth of the USA, the end of slavery in America, the liberation of millions from Nazi Germany, etc, etc, etc." It is a seemingly overused argument but it has truth to it.



Therein lies the difficulty for sure, as the people who tend to disagree with racism also tend to be pacifists, while the racists themselves tend to be quite a bit more militant.

It's similar to the conundrum that basically states freedom of speech means giving everyone a voice, including those who's speech could undermine those very freedoms.


----------



## SenorDingDong (May 26, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Groups like the KKK thrive on hate, they're the embodiment of it. If folks stop paying attention to them and bringing conflict to them, they'll just disappear......even more so than they have in the last century.
> 
> The more that groups like this are excised and put in a corner to yell at the wall, the better.
> 
> ...





This. Organisations like the KKK are the embodiment of those annoying fucking kids in elementary school who acts out 24/7. Once you ignore them, their world ends.


----------



## Explorer (May 26, 2012)

I've mentioned in another thread that at some KKK and neo-Nazi public events, there are native Americans who also attend, and who wholeheartedly endorse the notion that people should go back to where they came from. 

Unfortunately, that undermines the message of the two groups, who want to have everyone leave but the whites making up their chosen immigrant group. It's hard to argue you were here first when a physical counterexample is standing there in person, loudly shouting the same message about you having to go back to your original country.. 

*laugh*


----------



## Odinvader (May 29, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/0...olina-residents-to-whites-only-cross-burning/
> Racism is certainly dead, and not an issue anymore, and we should stop talking about it.




It's not that, so much as we have progressed. Racism is pretty much limited to crazies like VNN and the KKK, so the general populace is just unconcerned. Most people aren't racist, and they go about their lives like normal. 

tl;dr: No one cares anymore.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> It's not that, so much as we have progressed. Racism is pretty much limited to crazies like VNN and the KKK, so the general populace is just unconcerned. Most people aren't racist, and they go about their lives like normal.
> 
> tl;dr: No one cares anymore.



Not true at all.


----------



## Mordacain (May 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> It's not that, so much as we have progressed. Racism is pretty much limited to crazies like VNN and the KKK, so the general populace is just unconcerned. Most people aren't racist, and they go about their lives like normal.
> 
> tl;dr: No one cares anymore.



How you can be in Atlanta (or anywhere in the south) and honestly think no-one cares about racism anymore is just mind-boggling. There is not a day that goes by that I don't encounter a racist comment from someone, be they black or white. Racial tension still runs very deep and as long as socio-economic lines remain the way they are that is not likely to change anytime soon.


----------



## Odinvader (May 29, 2012)

Mordacain said:


> How you can be in Atlanta (or anywhere in the south) and honestly think no-one cares about racism anymore...
> 
> ....
> 
> There is not a day that goes by that I don't encounter a racist comment from someone



You live in Atlanta?



Stealthdjentstic said:


> Not true at all.



Okay, show me the examples of most people doing something about racism, be it fighting for or against it. Right, you can't. You can only find small get-together's by small pro-racist and anti-racist group, because most people are more concerned with:

1 - wake up 
2 - go to work
3 - go home
4 - watch tv
5 - sleep

Sometimes, 4 and 5 can be replaced by "hard liquor" and "sleep with stranger", but there isn't much outside of fun and work. Political activism is pretty low on most people's list, even when they are young, opinionated, energetic, aiming to appease, and going to an elite school that urges that sort of thing--trust me, I know.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 29, 2012)

I'm not talking about more racist groupings, I'm talking about people being racist themselves on a daily basis man.

IE you support a racist by listening to Varg's music


----------



## Mordacain (May 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> You live in Atlanta?



I visited Atlanta 6 times and I've either had someone directly say something racist to me or overheard a racist comment on every trip over the course of 20 years. 

I'm talking about casual, everyday racism average people hold against each-other.


----------



## Odinvader (May 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> I'm not talking about more racist groupings, I'm talking about people being racist themselves on a daily basis man.
> 
> IE you support a racist by listening to Varg's music




His lyrics don't have an ounce of racism in them. I'm not supporting racism by enjoying music with lyrics ripped from Tolkien's well-written lore. 

You were kidding, right?



Mordacain said:


> I'm talking about casual, everyday racism average people hold against each-other.



Considering the state directly opposes racism outside that related to speech, you're just being really sensitive. You can tell them to fuck off, ignore them, move, put in earphones, or whatever. It's not like you are in danger, unless, of course, you were in a high crime area. That wouldn't be surprising, because Atlanta is a high-crime and overall cluttered and dirty city.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 29, 2012)

If you buy his music/merch then yes you are, have you heard his blog? You're fuelling him with cash to keep up with his white supremacist bullshit. The fact that you think its ok to give him money says enough.


----------



## Mordacain (May 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> Considering the state directly opposes racism outside that related to speech, you're just being really sensitive. You can tell them to fuck off, ignore them, move, put in earphones, or whatever. It's not like you are in danger, unless, of course, you were in a high crime area. That wouldn't be surprising, because Atlanta is a high-crime and overall cluttered and dirty city.



The point is that people obviously DO care about racism or they wouldn't bother saying racist shit. Its not about ignoring it or being sensitive to it. Racism is still prevalent; ignoring it as you suggest isn't going to make it go away anymore than engaging it in is.


----------



## Odinvader (May 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> If you buy his music/merch then yes you are


 
LOL. Now you are just grasping at straws, because I unraveled your argument. You should have done the smart thing and conceded. I don't, by the way.




Stealthdjentstic said:


> have you heard his blog?


 
I don't enjoy blogs, so no.




Stealthdjentstic said:


> You're fuelling him with cash.



You said "if" earlier, and now you are making blind assumptions. Were you convincing yourself while you were writing? Someone wasn't taught the meaning of persuasive writing.... The persuasion is meant for the reader, not the writer.




Stealthdjentstic said:


> The fact that you think its ok to give him money says enough.



Well, I've already addressed this, so...


Basically, your righteous indignation reeks of misery that you'd like to spread upon others who actually don't care. You're wasting your time, especially considering your logic sucks and you can't convince anyone.



Mordacain said:


> ignoring it as you suggest isn't going to make it go away anymore than engaging it in is.



If you're trying to urge me to join some socio-political struggle against racism, count me out. I live in an area where I'm a racial minority, and I'm just fine without the white knight crowd protecting me from evil social ills.


----------



## wlfers (May 29, 2012)

I think its fine to buy his merch and albums, I really enjoy the music. We had a nice discussion about this in another racism thread. I also said there that I'd buy a michael jackson album without supporting pedophilia though (if he was guilty). 

And he's admitted himself there is no NS themes in his BM.


----------



## Odinvader (May 29, 2012)

athawulf said:


> And he's admitted himself there is no NS themes in his BM.



Well obviously, some people on this forum don't read before engaging in morally bloviated diatribe, so I don't think telling them is going to help. But what the hell, it doesn't hurt to try...

Anyway, it's cool to see another Burzum fan.


----------



## Mordacain (May 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> If you're trying to urge me to join some socio-political struggle against racism, count me out. I live in an area where I'm a racial minority, and I'm just fine without the white knight crowd protecting me from evil social ills.



How did you get that sentiment from any of my posts? You said racism doesn't matter anymore, I disagreed with that statement. 

I'm literally just amazed you never experienced enough racism directly or indrectly while living in the south to make you think that racism magically stopped affecting people going about their day to day lives.


----------



## Odinvader (May 29, 2012)

Mordacain said:


> I'm literally just amazed you never experienced enough racism directly or indrectly while living in the south



Um... good for you? I don't share your excitement for the mundane.



Mordacain said:


> How did you get that sentiment from any of my posts?



Well, it is kind of hard to get the right sentiment from your post, since you fucked up the end of your sentence here:



Mordacain said:


> Racism is still prevalent; ignoring it as you suggest isn't going to make it go away anymore than engaging it in is.


 
I assume you meant "in it", instead of "it in". Otherwise, you added an extra word, which is less probable. I went with the more probable and concluded what I did via simple logic:

ignoring it = not doing anything/not caring
engaging in it = promoting/engaging in racism

The only other alternative is to fight racism, and I said no. Tell me where I'm wrong.


----------



## Explorer (May 29, 2012)

So... denies there is racism in Atlanta. 

Doesn't mind giving money to someone who is deeply racist, as indicated by... hold on a second while I easily grab a random piece of his writing... "...they too are working for a de-construction of all nations on Earth, and to build a global Hebrew temple, enslaving us all under the will of the Jews... ."

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the same reasoning which can justify ignoring racism in one context is being used to justify ignoring racism in another. Knowing that he doesn't like Jews will probably have no effect on some people's buying habits, because they could give two shits about how some subhumans are treated.

Because, if they did, they would change those habits. 

I'm gonna have to fix something here.



Odinvader said:


> more concerned with:
> 
> 1 - wake up
> 2 - go to work
> ...



I'm pretty sure we do too, now that the post has been fixed to be more accurate. 

There is definitely one thing which works, without even needing to get political though: public opprobrium. 

The difference between that and racism, of course, is that opprobrium is because of one's actions, and not because of one's race. It's entirely up to the person who is choosing any given behavior. 

Sorry to be so direct, but sometimes one has to do that when dealing with racism. If you feel I've made a personal attack, as opposed to drawing fair conclusions from what you've posted, you can always report my post.


----------



## Necris (May 29, 2012)

Just in case noone wanted to believe Varg was actually a racist here's a nice passage from Vargsmal, a book he wrote in 1994.
The Chapter it is from is titled "The Clean Blood - Humanity's Last Chance"


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We have dawdled race hygiene research and discovered proof that race blending is harmful to offspring. The race hygiene institute in Oslo was taken down after the second World War and all research results were destroyed because they were "Nazis". A fraction of the work were not destroyed. We know that race blending is harmful to mankind or more correct - those that made an effort to understand race hygiene found this out. The others life in disbelief that it isn't harmful to blend races. Those who study anatomy also understand race blending is harmful for humanity - they ought to, at any rate, understand it.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
From the Chapter titled "The Real Racists"
[/FONT]


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
> There are many so called anti-racists who actively fight against "racism" but what is actually what they fight against, and doesn't this make them racist themselves? They plead against intolerance and prejudice. Yes I am totally intolerant of foreign cultured people, they have nothing to do here. But my intolerance is at the expense of foreign people and not our own! I don't tolerate foreigners that come here and destroy our people, with narcotics, venereal disease, race mixing, rape of our women! If we can spare a Norwegian woman from being raped by exile or certain death or taking the life of ten thousand foreigners than yes I believe that we shall do it! Yes, absolutely.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
There is also a chapter titled "A Little More Race Hygiene".
Rather than continue quoting, here's the whole goddamn book: http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/archives/vargs.html

But feel free to believe that by buying his albums you aren't financially supporting a racist if that makes you feel better. 

[/FONT]


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 29, 2012)

Omg, an avatar change


----------



## Explorer (May 29, 2012)

In case anyone here ever really makes the case that racism is gone... it's always interesting when it can't help but be noticed, isn't it?

Avatar change = win.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 29, 2012)




----------



## wlfers (May 29, 2012)

Necris said:


> Just in case noone wanted to believe Varg was actually a racist here's a nice passage from Vargsmal, a book he wrote in 1994.
> The Chapter it is from is titled "The Clean Blood - Humanity's Last Chance"
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
> From the Chapter titled "The Real Racists"
> ...



You're not reading what we said. Nobody doubts that he is racist, yet there is still no racism in his music- the themes are not NSBM at all. I'm listening to a music created by a racist, which is different from racist music. I'm not going to go on a crusade investigating every member of my favorite bands to make sure they agree with me on everything, I'd have very little music left to enjoy.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 29, 2012)

Nobody denied that, how can you not see how giving money to someone who believes jews are controlling the world is a bad thing?


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 29, 2012)

athawulf said:


> You're not reading what we said. Nobody doubts that he is racist, yet there is still no racism in his music- the themes are not NSBM at all. I'm listening to a music created by a racist, which is different from racist music. I'm not going to go on a crusade investigating every member of my favorite bands to make sure they agree with me on everything, I'd have very little music left to enjoy.



Fair point. 

I never really understood why a peron's personal life has anything to do with how you interact with them based on how they've presented themselves to you. In other words, the person didn't put out an album asking you to be their friend. They just want you to listen to their music. If the music has a bunch of hateful lyrics then I could see where you might find fault with a person, but if they--in their PERSONAL life--do things you don't agree with, I don't see how that has anything to do with his/her job which in this case would be making music. 

I can see the point of funding someone who doesn't believe the same as you but that could be the case in a number of other ways as well. Unless you're funding an underground movement to act on those feelings I don't really see the problem.

I have even been "friends" with SEVERAL people I've known to be a racist. At least, they seemed to have a rather racist attitude toward others that share my year-round tan. It didn't stop me for being respectful and even helpful when the opportunity arose under the pretense that they were to show me a certain level of my respect to my face if nothing else. I can't control what's done when I'm not around. 

Although it can it undoubtedly hit much closer to home, I don't see shunning someone for not liking a group of people as being any different from shunning someone for believing differently from you in some other area. I can see the difference in the way it might affect someone internally, though. But I honestly enjoy watching a racist pull his/her foot out of his/her mouth when they realize I'm fucking delightful.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Nobody denied that, how can you not see how giving money to someone who believes jews are controlling the world is a bad thing?



I'm not exactly sure if you're being serious or not...


----------



## Scar Symmetry (May 29, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


>




I find myself siding with the black guy. Fuck the white guys, I wouldn't blink if those two were eliminated.


----------



## Randy (May 29, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


>




What's your point? Is this in direct response to something somebody else said in here or are you just making some kind of passive-aggressive blanket statement that the KKK are right to hate black people because black people think white people should be exterminated?


----------



## Necris (May 29, 2012)

athawulf said:


> You're not reading what we said. Nobody doubts that he is racist, yet there is still no racism in his music- the themes are not NSBM at all. I'm listening to a music created by a racist, which is different from racist music. I'm not going to go on a crusade investigating every member of my favorite bands to make sure they agree with me on everything, I'd have very little music left to enjoy.


I'm aware there is no racism in his lyrics and no-one is asking you to "investigate every member of your favorite bands"  however in the case of Burzum/Varg his views are so well known, so out in the open that very little research on your part is required. If you choose to buy his music anyway you aren't merely turning a blind eye to his views you're willingly financially supporting a racist. No amount of mental gymnastics you can do will change that.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 29, 2012)

^ In all fairness, if it's something that wasn't in his lyrics, despite how well known his views are, there are ppl in the world who still would never know--myself included.

Most of the time I don't even know what the ppl in the band look like much less their names or opinion on ANYTHING, ya know?

I don't see it as turning a blind eye necessarily, I just don't care and/or would rather not know if I like what I hear from the person musically. To me it's similar to how you don't really wanna know about the people your significant other has dated bc you don't want to ruin a good thing with thoughts of things unrelated/no longer important. Likewise, if I think the music is good, I don't really look to understand an artist as a person bc I know we all have the capacity to be fuckheads (some bigger than others) and I simply think the artistic side of it outweighs any butthurtedness I might feel toward someone not agreeing with me being born a certain way. I can't sweat the shit I can't change.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 29, 2012)

Randy said:


> What's your point? Is this in direct response to something somebody else said in here or are you just making some kind of passive-aggressive blanket statement that the KKK are right to hate black people because black people think white people should be exterminated?


 
Just using the vid to demonstrate how far we have to go, and to the extent that racism does still exist from all sides directed in all directions.

Like it or not, when it comes down to the specific black/white thing, there is a double standard in the level of accountability our cultural and political leaders exude.

We all know that there are ignorant nobody whites that hate blacks as a whole, and their are also plenty of no-name blacks that hold whites responsible for their every hardship and failure.

What's most troubling to me is when cultural leaders and politicians engage in hate speech and hate thinking out loud.
Sean and Allen were both right to call this guy out for his absolutely mindless blabber and failure to admit that calling for the extermination of whites is no better than what the clan was doing 50yrs ago.

We all know damned well that following or supporting the KKK is wrong because they are an inflaming, damaging, and generally jack-assed group of thugs.

So why is it the Black Panthers, who have been shown time and time again to be on the side of violence and hate towards whites, why are they not shunned by the media, society, and blacks to the same degree as the clan, or shunned to any degree for that matter?

Great job FOX for not being afraid to present the Black Panthers and to let them show their own ignorance and hate.
KKK and Black Panthers = terrible examples for our youth of any racial background


----------



## renzoip (May 29, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


>




You know what? I actually think the BPP member did good in refusing to answer the question that the hosts were asking. Because the whole purpose behind that interview was to set him up into a trap in order to undermine a bigger problem. So, even if it may appear illogical, I think he was smart enough to expose their double standards and not to play their games. I also think he has a point when he says that they are putting a man in the hot seat and then holding what he says against him. Also, they fail to give us any context for what the former professor said. I'd like to hear what these fox news bigots would say if they were in the hot seat. I laugh at their attempt to be the voice of reason.

Also, individual bigotry and institutionalized racism are not the same. Both are bad, but personal prejudice and systemic disempowerment of minorities come from different starting points. Racism against "whites" is only a reaction to institutionalized racism and is rooted in resentment for past and present injustices; it does not suggest that "whites" are inherently inferior as a "race", nor does it try to use pseudo scientific or moralistic arguments to justify the exploitation or segregation or disempowerment of "white people". 

One can (and should IMO) be against all forms of racism and bigotry, but arguing that the KKK and the NBPP are two sides of the same coin is inaccurate, and reactionary.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 29, 2012)

Black Panthers have been preaching white hate for decades, and KKK have been preaching black hate for even longer.
Doesn't matter which sides of which coins and other termonology rubbish.
They both suck ass.

It's ignorant hypocrisy to condemm one, and then cover for the other.


----------



## Necris (May 29, 2012)

I... agree with TRENCHLORD.


----------



## renzoip (May 29, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> Black Panthers have been preaching white hate for decades, and KKK have been preaching balck hate for even longer.
> Doesn't matter which sides of which coins and other termonology rubbish.
> They both suck ass.
> 
> It's ignorant hypocrisy to condemm one, and then cover for the other.




No, it is called a double standard. Condemning both while acknowledging their differences is not the same as apologizing for one or another. They both suck ass, as you mentioned. But that does not mean that the history and the material conditions that facilitated the emergence of black nationalism are rubbish, unless you are taking the reductionist "color-blind" approach, which puts the burden on the victim rather than on the oppressor.


----------



## Explorer (May 29, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I never really understood why a peron's personal life has anything to do with how you interact with them based on how they've presented themselves to you. In other words, the person didn't put out an album asking you to be their friend. They just want you to listen to their music. If the music has a bunch of hateful lyrics then I could see where you might find fault with a person, but if they--in their PERSONAL life--do things you don't agree with, I don't see how that has anything to do with his/her job which in this case would be making music.
> 
> ...Although it can it undoubtedly hit much closer to home, I don't see shunning someone for not liking a group of people as being any different from shunning someone for believing differently from you in some other area.



I'm not sure if you're being serious, but here's the deal: If someone were to call anyone I was involved with a n***er in their private life, I have no problem not supporting them or their famililies by buying their music, no matter now great that music is. There's too many other artists out there who aren't calling my partner a n***er who are doing great music.

And, regarding the second point, I don't shun anyone who just has a different point of view from me. I only avoid people who want to deny the humanity of those I know and care about.

@athawulf: You don't have to do the research. However, now you *know* Varg is racist. At this point you can either decide that such things are completely acceptable to you and that you'll give your money to someone to smoeone who is deeply antisemitic, or that you don't want to give your money to someone like that.

To put it a different way: If you loved a restaurant where you found out the owner, the person earning money from your patronage, would talk about your partner's race like "fuckin' n***ers" or "fuckin' crackers" or other such terms... would you be all about "Well, honey, I don't see why *I* have to stop going there just because you're a little sensitive?" *laugh*

----

There are great differences between the KKK and the Black Panthers. The KKK has historically targeted blacks for violence and intimidation due to their race, often with support of police and politicians in their areas.

The Black Pantehrs have historically defended blacks from violence and intimidation due to their race, from police and politicians in their area.

Weirdly enough, it seems like the agressors in both cases were whites intimidating and attacking blacks. 

Going further with the differences, the Panthers eventually went to socialism without racial exclusivity. Maybe I got confused since this topic started, but I thought it was about white power to the detriment of blacks and other races. 

There are no equivalents to the Klan donning anonymous robes, burning crosses to intimidate blacks, and lynching/killing blacks... as least as far as I'm aware. However, I'm always ready to learn how the Klan and the Panthers are exactly the same thing. Could someone post examples of such?

And, if one can't then, the one might think twice about saying they are equivalent, no?


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 29, 2012)

renzoip said:


> They both suck ass, as you mentioned. But that does not mean that the history and the material conditions that facilitated the emergence of black nationalism are rubbish


 
True. And I'll certainly acknowledge what the gentleman was trying to point out (that the KKK have did far more criminally than the vice-versa).

It just urks me that more black political leaders and cultural/sports icons don't come out and condemm the often millitant attitude of the BPs.

Seems that they (BP) help foster a "can't do it because the white man" attitude, when they should be promoting more of a "can do it because we are a proud determined highly achieving people" philosophy.

There are now so many success stories for blacks in all career fields.
Even though they are still the minority in most instances, they can serve as can do role models for subsequent generations to follow.
Unfortunately, anytime a successful black man or woman stands up and says that it's up to the individual to rise above, they are castegated as being "upsucking uncle toms".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIjibd_uy4&feature=related


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 29, 2012)

Explorer said:


> I'm always ready to learn how the Klan and the Panthers are exactly the same thing. Could someone post examples of such?
> 
> And, if one can't then, the one might think twice about saying they are equivalent, no?


 
Did anyone say they were equal or the exact same thing? I know I didn't.
Maybe someone else did, as I've not read the whole thread through closely.

Two things that are both wrong don't have to be identical or equally wrong to be wrong. They're just both wrong in their individual ways.


----------



## Guitarman700 (May 29, 2012)

Necris said:


> I... agree with TRENCHLORD.



More signs of the impending apocolypse.


----------



## renzoip (May 29, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> True. And I'll certainly acknowledge what the gentleman was trying to point out (that the KKK have did far more criminally than the vice-versa).
> 
> It just urks me that more black political leaders and cultural/sports icons don't come out and condemm the often millitant attitude of the BPs.
> 
> ...



I get you, but socio-economic data will show that despite success stories, most african americans in the US remain highly under represented, and at a disadvantage when it comes to socio-political-economic power. Of course, I agree that antagonizing all "white people" is not a productive approach and it achieves nothing. In that sense , I too condemn the BPP.

Also, rags to riches stories are outstanding precisely because they are rare, per every "self-made" successful minority out there, there are thousands of desperate poor minority workers. And I believe their discontent reaches far more than just being poor, or not "making it", I think it also has to do with representation, and with institutionalized racism against them. Education and money are highly important, but that alone isn't the cure to racism. I too, believe that the individual should put all his/her effort to rise above, but I won't deny that the system, as it currently stands, is set up to give minorities a much harder time achieving "success" in comparison to majorities.


----------



## Xaios (May 30, 2012)

Necris said:


> I... agree with TRENCHLORD.


----------



## wlfers (May 30, 2012)

Necris said:


> I'm aware there is no racism in his lyrics and no-one is asking you to "investigate every member of your favorite bands"  however in the case of Burzum/Varg his views are so well known, so out in the open that very little research on your part is required. If you choose to buy his music anyway you aren't merely turning a blind eye to his views you're willingly financially supporting a racist. No amount of mental gymnastics you can do will change that.



It's pretty straight forward, no mental gymnastics involved. I never denied my money was going to a racist, but my money is paying for (what I believe) is good music. Not to mention I also sometimes get plastic bags when I shop, I buy red meat from the local supermarket of cows treated like shit, buy music which gives money to people who are addicted to serious drugs- the list goes on. 

Each one of us makes the choice to draw the line on where our "consumer activism" should begin/end, and I made the subjective choice to not care about Burzum's music being written by a racist. My only point I brought up was that his music has no NS themes in it, and that was all.



TRENCHLORD said:


> Black Panthers have been preaching white hate for decades, and KKK have been preaching black hate for even longer.
> Doesn't matter which sides of which coins and other termonology rubbish.
> They both suck ass.
> 
> It's ignorant hypocrisy to condemm one, and then cover for the other.


----------



## Explorer (May 30, 2012)

Did someone just equate using plastic bags or eating meat with giving money to a Nazi? 

I see a difference, but maybe it's only obvious to me.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (May 30, 2012)

renzoip said:


> You know what? I actually think the BPP member did good in refusing to answer the question that the hosts were asking. Because the whole purpose behind that interview was to set him up into a trap in order to undermine a bigger problem. So, even if it may appear illogical, I think he was smart enough to expose their double standards and not to play their games. I also think he has a point when he says that they are putting a man in the hot seat and then holding what he says against him. Also, they fail to give us any context for what the former professor said. I'd like to hear what these fox news bigots would say if they were in the hot seat. I laugh at their attempt to be the voice of reason.
> 
> Also, individual bigotry and institutionalized racism are not the same. Both are bad, but personal prejudice and systemic disempowerment of minorities come from different starting points. Racism against "whites" is only a reaction to institutionalized racism and is rooted in resentment for past and present injustices; it does not suggest that "whites" are inherently inferior as a "race", nor does it try to use pseudo scientific or moralistic arguments to justify the exploitation or segregation or disempowerment of "white people".
> 
> One can (and should IMO) be against all forms of racism and bigotry, but arguing that the KKK and the NBPP are two sides of the same coin is inaccurate, and reactionary.



Agreed on all points. 



TRENCHLORD said:


> Black Panthers have been preaching white hate for decades, and KKK have been preaching black hate for even longer.
> Doesn't matter which sides of which coins and other termonology rubbish.
> They both suck ass.
> 
> It's ignorant hypocrisy to condemm one, and then cover for the other.



White hate born of retaliation, it's not the same thing. The guy in the video makes a good point of the fact that the white man is historically a mass murderer of people who are not his colour. The NBPP are looking for solutions to their own protection. "Exterminate all whites" is a ridiculous statement (and a very, very unlikely scenario to ever come to fruition) but it shows how severely some blacks feel oppressed by the white man. 

As renzoip says, it's more of a reaction than anything. Some are still raw about slavery, some are raw about the events of today. The white man, no matter how innocent, should not give a knee-jerk reaction of "oh it wasn't me so why be angry at people my colour" because that takes the legs out from under those who have right to be angry. We should be looking to take responsibility, wherever and however possible, to ensure that our fellow man feels equal and safe.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 30, 2012)

I get what you mean, Explorer. I guess those were more meant to be coupled with previous points in that these aren't things I would even look to find out unless it's something literally everyone knows. Also, if I've already been listening before it, it's something I very well may just say "fuck it" and ignore if I like the music enough.

Obviously if I see it right in front of me or know for a fact that that's the case I would more than likely not buy their stuff had I never heard it, but with me I may have already bought a few albums before I even find out. 

@Dave - Good points. Not sure the KKK and Black Panthers have the same goals, per se (although individuals within the respective groups may sound the same) they just both seem willing to take it to the same end. Over something that will never end until they both chill the fuck out.


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 30, 2012)

athawulf said:


> Each one of us makes the choice to draw the line on where our "consumer activism" should begin/end...



Your examples were a bit extreme, but I kinda get what you were going for... I'm pretty sure the quoted phrase sums it up though. I can dig it. 

Reminds me of movies where the highschool girl that wants to "save the world" runs around telling people... "Oh you shouldn't buy this; they test on animals!" I'm not saying that to ridicule anyone, I'm just saying I see a parallel in that folks have some moral objection with the originator and thus aim to boycott the product. I'm not technically paying them to share my values. Further, I'd like to think that if my music were good they'd be able to see through the BS and listen as well, but that could just be wishful thinking. To me music is bigger than human beings being petty.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 30, 2012)

I actually agree for the most part with what everyone is saying.
It will take more time for minorities to be as statistically equally distributed through the socio-economic spectrum.

Our legal equality has improved and is still improving I believe (for example, Mr. Obama doing right in instructing Houlder to equalize the federal penalties (sentences) for powder coke vs. crack rocked coke. Which of course was a great example of still existing institutionalized racism.

With so many gains now constantly multiplying synergetically, I would think millitancy to be a regressing stratagy for continued socio-economic and political representational improvement.


----------



## renzoip (May 30, 2012)

athawulf said:


> It's pretty straight forward, no mental gymnastics involved. I never denied my money was going to a racist, but my money is paying for (what I believe) is good music. Not to mention I also sometimes get plastic bags when I shop, I buy red meat from the local supermarket of cows treated like shit, buy music which gives money to people who are addicted to serious drugs- the list goes on.
> 
> Each one of us makes the choice to draw the line on where our "consumer activism" should begin/end, and I made the subjective choice to not care about Burzum's music being written by a racist. My only point I brought up was that his music has no NS themes in it, and that was all



Slightly off topic, but I live near Miami, and when I go to metal shows over there, most of the people wearing Burzum shirts are actually dark skinned latinos. Interestingly enough, when I talk to them, they all try to claim some sort of remote european descent, and they are racist. Kids these days...


----------



## Konfyouzd (May 30, 2012)

renzoip said:


> Slightly off topic, but I live near Miami, and when I go to metal shows over there, most of the people wearing Burzum shirts are actually dark skinned latinos. Interestingly enough, when I talk to them, they all try to claim some sort of remote european descent, and they are racist. Kids these days...





Whatever makes em sleep better at night, no?

If you wanna get technical I'm sure a lot of us in America are of some kind of European descent.

Example: My heritage is Cuban/Bahamian. My last name is Irish... 

Some ppl just get far too caught up in what was meant to just be entertainment.


----------



## renzoip (May 30, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Whatever makes em sleep better at night, no?
> 
> If you wanna get technical I'm sure a lot of us in America are of some kind of European descent.
> 
> ...



Yup,  I just laugh it off since their claims fail to impress me.

I have traceable basque descent, but I never talk about it, unless I'm asked. It's not important to me. But I guess it's a big deal to some people within the black metal community. The other day I had a pretty interesting conversation with one of these guys about the KKK rally in question, it went something like this: 


Dude: The Klan has a point, fuck N***** and illegal S****
Me: Do you realize that you are latino yourself?
Dude: Yes, but I'm Cuban with Spanish and Italian descent. 
Me: So what? 
Dude: Well, I'm not like those illegal mexican indians
Me: I'm sure the khlan would not stop to ask you where you and your parent are from before lynching you. 
Dude: That wouldn't happen to me because of my european ancestry
Me: No, that wouldn't happen to you cause you live in miami, and never leave miami. 
Dude: Whatever


Sometimes I feel like calling out their idiocy, sometimes I feel like I couldn't possibly make them look more idiotic than they already make themselves look like.


----------



## wlfers (May 30, 2012)

Explorer said:


> Did someone just equate using plastic bags or eating meat with giving money to a Nazi?
> 
> I see a difference, but maybe it's only obvious to me.



Yes, someone just made an analogy of how his money goes to places he can disagree with. That someone never said they were of equal value though- as analogies tend to inherently be. 

I disagree with the way animals are treated, yet the butchers cut good cuts of steak which I buy in the same way I can disagree with someone who writes good music. 

Sorry that was lost on you somehow


----------



## Explorer (May 30, 2012)

Actually, I think a lot of people would agree that between these three...

Plastic bags

Eating meat

Thinking the Holocaust was a good thing

...that the first two don't even begin to approach the third in terms of how horribly racist and evil the third is.

Even if you toss eating veal in, or animal testing, those are in no way comparable in order of magnitude. Really, do an informal poll if you want.

Dude, if you really think that the first two can be used as an illustration of why it's okay to help support Nazis, you lack a bit of insight. Normally one might instead conclude that being okay with supporting the business of a Klansman or a Nazi might indicate a bit of racism on the part of the supporter, but I'll instead attribute it to you maybe not having thought it through. 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.


----------



## wlfers (May 30, 2012)

We can chase in circles all you want, I clearly stated they are of unequal value but the premise of paying for a good product that can support negative things is the same. 

I think you give him too much credit anyway. What are my few dollars going to do, pay for a weeks webmaster fees for him to talk about aryan aliens or some other crazy shit? Dude lives on a small farm and comes out to say something ever few months.


----------



## Explorer (May 30, 2012)

I know you said they're of unequal value.

I don't think you really appreciate how unequal those values are. 

Actually, I suspect you could come up with closer equivalents (supporting someone who's okay with the Holocaust's aims, supporting someone who is good with lynching negroes, supportings someone who wants all gays killed, etc.) but don't want to go there because every fucking one of them is just unacceptable to most. 

However, let's toss this open, as I could be out of step.

*Is there anyone else here who seriously feels that using plastic bags or eating meat is like supporting a Nazi sympathizer, with the only difference being in degree? *

And, since it's an internet forum and possibly not connected to real life, I'm gonna suggest you ask your girlfriend/wife/partner, your family/parents, and your employer (maybe HR) if they see these to be directly comparable in any way. I suspect you'll instead find that you won't even ask... because you know it will cost you credibility in the real world.

True story, though: I asked a few people in the time since my last post, and after everyone busted out laughing, the best response (not serious, but trying really hard to be): Well, you can't say the first two are like the Holocaust... because you know meat eating and the plastic bag really happened. 

*None* of the women I know would be comfortable dating a guy who was okay financially supporting a Nazi when there's other cool music available incidentally, so you might not want to mention all this to any women you know unless you know where their sympathies lie.


----------



## bob123 (May 30, 2012)

As much as I detest any and all racism, these people are protected by the constitution to perform this (albiet heinous) rituals as long as all the proper forms are filed.

I'd much rather see this, then those fucking "occupy" hipsters running around doing stupid shit.

edit: 
fuck it. I deal with ignorant people too much as it is.


----------



## wlfers (May 30, 2012)

Explorer said:


> I know you said they're of unequal value.
> 
> I don't think you really appreciate how unequal those values are.
> 
> ...



Sorry but appealing to my acquaintances, family and friends is not the way to go about finding a conclusion. For one reason, it is simply not enough to ask the majority of people whether or not something is morally ok, as you may know at one point in time racism was accepted by the masses.

And secondly, my friends, females included though you may not believe it, are way more open minded than you imagine. In fact, one of them I argue with all the time about Burzum and other things like veganism, politics, etc -but It does not make us less close in anyway. Nice try though  

*None* of the women I know would be flattered by anyone assuming their philosophy or morality for any reason, including declaring that they would judge the merit of their friendships on the way one spends their money on music. See what I did there?

We're at the point in our internet disagreement where we're starting to repeat ourselves the third and fourth time.


----------



## bob123 (Jun 5, 2012)

bob123 said:


> As much as I detest any and all racism, these people are protected by the constitution to perform this (albiet heinous) rituals as long as all the proper forms are filed.
> 
> I'd much rather see this, then those fucking "occupy" hipsters running around doing stupid shit.
> 
> ...




Apparently saying people are entitled to their 1st ammendment rights makes me a "racist douche".

Id say some people need to learn how to read for context.


----------



## Waelstrum (Jun 5, 2012)

^ I think some might have interpreted what you said as the KKK are better than the occupy movement. This could lead to the conclusion that you think overt racism is better than whatever the occupy movement stands for (I don't really get what they're saying, but that's another topic). I'm sure that's not what you meant.


----------



## Lagtastic (Jun 5, 2012)

There are idiots and jackasses of every race, color, and creed. Hopefully people of the younger generation realize this. Unfortunately, there are still a huge percentage of the population that are raised to detest people of another color.

Don't think all of NC is bad. In the cities it is quite nice. Charlotte, Raleigh, and especially Asheville are nice places to be. However, heading 50 miles outside of a larger city can lead you right to towns with 2 traffic lights and an old-school view on racism. 

If you really want to see it bad, I lived in Mobile Alabama for a few years. Even in the 2nd largest city in the state, the KKK rallies in public park and racism is literally shoved down your throat.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (Jun 6, 2012)

Lagtastic said:


> Don't think all of NC is bad. In the cities it is quite nice. Charlotte, Raleigh, and especially Asheville are nice places to be.


 
Yeah I can also attest to this. Having visited Ashville numerous times throughout my life, I'd say it's one of the friendliest and most welcoming places in the whole U.S., no matter what your race or personal style. Most people there are extremely chill.


----------

