# Finally the Higgs boson?



## Jakke (Jun 20, 2012)

There is a substantial rumour in the scientific community that data might have been found that can point us to the Higgs boson, the mythical particle that is predicted to be the final puzzle piece in the standard model. 

I should stress that this is not verified yet, but it do looks promising... If it turns out to be correct, the researchers can book their tickets to Stockholm immediately


So fellow scientifically minded board members, what do you think?


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## bob123 (Jun 20, 2012)

This will be the 40th time they've "discovered" it. When they get everything down on paper, I'll start believing them.


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## Necris (Jun 20, 2012)

Good evidence must be shown first, my belief comes afterward.


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## Jakke (Jun 20, 2012)

I would say that the two alleged sigma-4 are pretty interesting, it is not proof just yet, but highly interesting...

*EDIT* Oh yeah, for anyone who has been fortunate enough not to do any quantum physics, sigma-4 (or 4-sigma) means that there are 4 standard deviations in their measuring values. 
TL;DR for anyone who don't want to read a wiki article in probability (I really can't blame you). Visualize you are shooting at a target, you have an expected point where you know you should hit (say the bullseye) with this ammunition (this is the expected charge the researchers have that they expect a particle to have). Around there you have circles which are named 1 standard deviation, 2 standard deviations etc. If you then fire and it hits at the five circle, that is too far a distance for the bullet to have deviated from the expected target by sheer chance (the probability that it has done so by sheer chance is one in a million), so you see that you have to check if there is anything wrong with the gun or with your bullets as there must be something influencing the path.

If we parallel this to the experiment, the researchers has allegedly found a particle with a much higher charge than a proton should have at two separate occasions that the probability of this being due to chance are miniscule. But this is only allegeldy.


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## leftyguitarjoe (Jun 20, 2012)

I'll look forward to the announcement. I hope this is real.


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## Blind Theory (Jun 20, 2012)

While it would be cool, I am highly skeptical. There was a thread earlier this year I believe stating the same thing and nothing came of it. I personally don't believe we have the technology to accurately detect some of these things yet. It's not to say we won't but I don't think we are there yet. If this turns out to be legit it will open a TON of doors and yes, they will definitely be booking a ticket to Stockholm.


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## The Uncreator (Jun 21, 2012)

Don't get me all excited without something. I really feel I will be alive for it's discovery, so I am always a bit anxious for it


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## Phlegethon (Jun 22, 2012)

only one more sigma to go before it's official. IIRC the standard for discovery stuff like this is 5 sigma, and choosing to look at the optimistic side. but like others have mentioned, the data has to back the findings and any tests that find the higgs boson will have to pass scientific muster for this sort of thing

but celebrating that we're getting it done, even if it's taking longer than some would like


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## Murdstone (Jun 22, 2012)

This would be really sweet if they can close the case. 

I hope for the sake of everyone though that they double-checked that all the machines were plugged in correctly...


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## Jakke (Jun 23, 2012)

Murdstone said:


> I hope for the sake of everyone though that they double-checked that all the machines were plugged in correctly...


 
DAMN YOU FAULTY GPS!!


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## JamesM (Jun 23, 2012)

Skeptical.


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## The Uncreator (Jun 24, 2012)

Excitement Builds Over Expected Higgs Boson Announcement | LHC | Space.com


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## Chickenhawk (Jun 24, 2012)

<--- Cautiously optimistic, as usual.


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## technomancer (Jun 24, 2012)

I'll be excited when there are some verified findings, they've been leaking hints that they might have data that suggests the Higgs for what, the past year or so now?


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## Blind Theory (Jun 25, 2012)

technomancer said:


> I'll be excited when there are some verified findings, they've been leaking hints that they might have data that suggests the Higgs for what, the past year or so now?



There have been many premature declarations of discovery for the Higgs Boson in the past. Not just this past year. As with everything it is trial and error until success but the Higgs Boson isn't exactly like learning how to kickflip a skateboard. Skepticism here is a very good idea. I seriously hope this is true. Words could not describe how cool it would be to witness a scientific discovery of this magnitude in my lifetime. I feel it would be equal to what bystanders must have felt when Einstein came out with Relativity or something.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jun 25, 2012)

Blind Theory said:


> I seriously hope this is true. Words could not describe how cool it would be to witness a scientific discovery of this magnitude in my lifetime. I feel it would be equal to what bystanders must have felt when Einstein came out with Relativity or something.


 
Which is to say, for the average person, absolutely nothing .


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## Blind Theory (Jun 26, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Which is to say, for the average person, absolutely nothing .



Got me there, Tim.


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## JPhoenix19 (Jun 29, 2012)

wtf, I don't understand any of this...


...sorcery.


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## Blind Theory (Jun 29, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> wtf, I don't understand any of this...
> 
> 
> ...sorcery.




The Higgs Boson can be thought of like a pool that particles have passed through. In theory the Higgs is a sort of field that particles pass through to give them their mass as we see it. There is more to it than that but that is the easiest way to explain it.


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## Mexi (Jul 2, 2012)

God particle is 'found': Scientists at Cern expected to announce Higgs boson particle has been discovered on Wednesday | Mail Online

looks like this is shaping up to be true!


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## Jakke (Jul 2, 2012)




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## Chickenhawk (Jul 2, 2012)

> Scientists at the Large Hadron Collider are expected to say they are 99.99 per cent certain it has been found - which is known as 'four sigma' level.





> However, the two groups, CMS and ATLAS, are expected to stop short of confirming its existence.


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## Jakke (Jul 2, 2012)

It's really that they will say that they are pretty damn sure that they have found it, but they won't say that they are completely sure that they have found it. 




*Science!*


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## steve1 (Jul 2, 2012)

I suppose this is one of those circumstances where 99.99% isn't quite enough. Is 100% even possible in science though? Never being 100% is what drives the scientific world.


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## Jakke (Jul 2, 2012)

steve1 said:


> I suppose this is one of those circumstances where 99.99% isn't quite enough. Is 100% even possible in science though? Never being 100% is what drives the scientific world.



100% is certainly possible, they can confirm the boson without any question. But nature rarely works with 100%, so there is obviously going to be something that is amiss. So when they say that they are 99% certain, it probably is 100%, but there is some stuff that is there and should not interfere, but to be honest they still say 99%.


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 2, 2012)

Jakke said:


> It's really that they will say that they are pretty damn sure that they have found it, but they won't say that they are completely sure that they have found it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what you're saying, but that link really wasn't any news, since they were already at four sigma.

Or something.

*SCIENCE!!*


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## Jakke (Jul 2, 2012)

Oh, sorry about that.


*Science!*


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm still cautiously optimistic. They requested the audience of some big wig brainiacs, so that should be a good sign.

Same situation as the whole 'faster than light' event, though. Call in the big dogs to verify, only to be told they made a mistake.


Oh well.


*SCIENCE!*


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## Jakke (Jul 2, 2012)

Indeed, I am optimistically skeptic. If they have two 4-sigma, bully for them, we have found the Higgs boson. But it might just be a faster than light event as you said, I have a hard time thinking up any sources of error with the equipment they are using though, there should be nothing sabotaging in the same way here...
That is how science works, I love how people who are anit-science scream about a conspiracy. Despite that the researchers who found the fast neutrinos really asked people to repeat their experiments because even they saw something fishy.


*Science!*


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## Mexi (Jul 3, 2012)

Higgs boson just may, possibly, more or less be proven to exist by ATLAS and CMS teams -- Engadget

it would appear that both ATLAS and CMS have seen particle decay signals that would suggest a 4.5-5 sigma level. hopefully it is confirmed tommorow!


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## The Uncreator (Jul 4, 2012)

New Particle at World's Largest Atom Smasher is Likely Higgs Boson | LHC | LiveScience

Another article that has popped up, I'm seriously getting goosebumps right now.


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## Varcolac (Jul 4, 2012)

I just realised that the Higgs Boson is essentially Element Zero from Mass Effect. This is badass. 

*SCIENCE!*


Spoiler



fiction



I'm officially calling dibs on the first blue-skinned space babe. And putting myself on the waiting list for omni-tools.


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## AcousticMinja (Jul 4, 2012)

Cosmic Variance | Discover Magazine

Here is another article.


Another.

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/pressreleases/Releases2012/PR17.12E.html


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## petereanima (Jul 4, 2012)

Whoever did this, gets a plus in my book.


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## Mexi (Jul 4, 2012)

CERN confirms existence of new particle consistent with Higgs boson (video) -- Engadget
short of actually saying it, scientists have discovered a particle "consistent" with the Higgs Boson, vid below


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## leftyguitarjoe (Jul 4, 2012)

Mexi said:


> CERN confirms existence of new particle consistent with Higgs boson (video) -- Engadget
> short of actually saying it, scientists have discovered a particle "consistent" with the Higgs Boson, vid below






So.... they pretty much got it.


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## technomancer (Jul 4, 2012)

Sounds like they've found a new particle that they think might be the Higgs but they need to do more research to determine its characteristics before saying it is or is not the Higgs


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## Mexi (Jul 4, 2012)

well when they say they're 99.999% sure it's the Higgs, we can just say that they found it. a year or two will just serve to confirm data that's already been suggesting the Higgs as early as 2008


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## Inverted11 (Jul 4, 2012)

They can never say they're 100% sure thanks to Heisenberg's principle. In a sense, every particle is an imaginary one. But that's some pretty exciting news - CERN never ceases to impress!


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## The Uncreator (Jul 5, 2012)

My level of excitement is off the charts. Whats that quote from dan brown anout living in history,or about living in monumental times? Thats how I feel. Where were you when they discovered the higgs?


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## technomancer (Jul 5, 2012)

Mexi said:


> well when they say they're 99.999% sure it's the Higgs, we can just say that they found it. a year or two will just serve to confirm data that's already been suggesting the Higgs as early as 2008



Except nobody has said that. They've said they found a particle that could potentially be the Higgs but they need to do more research to determine its properties and determine if it is the Higgs or not.


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 5, 2012)

The Uncreator said:


> Where were you when they discovered the higgs?



Sitting on my couch, drinking beer. Probably will keep doing that, even if they did find the Higgs


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## Blind Theory (Jul 5, 2012)

technomancer said:


> Except nobody has said that. They've said they found a particle that could potentially be the Higgs but they need to do more research to determine its properties and determine if it is the Higgs or not.



I stayed up super late so I could watch the live webcast of the presentation in Geneva. I'd have to say it isn't really how you are making it out to be. They used quite a few loaded phrases when talking about it. Hell, the end where they basically announced they found it is a strong enough point. Being scientists they have to follow everything up with things like "We still need to collect some data" or "We are working on analyzing the results of both projects" but they are pretty certain they've found the Higgs. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it the opening presentation of an international Particle Physics conference and invited people like Peter Higgs to go to the presentation in Geneva. I'd say it is a safe bet to say they found it and are just be apprehensive due to the nature of the work they do.


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## Jakke (Jul 7, 2012)

It's pretty much confirmed, I don't hink CERN would go out with it if not.

I was at a lecture


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## Necris (Jul 10, 2012)

Higgs boson gets set to music | Cutting Edge - CNET News


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## Big Muff Pi (Jul 13, 2012)

Inverted11 said:


> They can never say they're 100% sure thanks to Heisenberg's principle.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the Heisenberg principle says is that the more exactly one knows the position of a particle, the less exactly one can know the momentum of that particle.


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## Inverted11 (Jul 13, 2012)

Big Muff Pi said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the Heisenberg principle says is that the more exactly one knows the position of a particle, the less exactly one can know the momentum of that particle.



The velocity, not momentum, but yes. These accelerators work by determining different vectored velocities, thus can never know 100% the position of a particle.


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## vanhendrix (Jul 13, 2012)

So.....





?


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## Edika (Jul 13, 2012)

As technomancer said they've found a new particle that they believe to be the Higgs boson. Until they confirm the data and have repeated experiments to verify the result they are not going to officially say it is. 
Two good reasons why they are saying it most probably is the Higgs boson is excitement over the result of the experiment and funding! If you say we found a new particle EU will say meh! But if you say we most probably found the Higgs boson the cash starts to flow!

On another note when the announcement of the discovery of the Higgs boson was made the heads of church in my home country instead of understanding God particle as the particle of God (which I am sure scientists never given it this term anyway, see mass media) they interpreted the particle that is God (as they always misinterpret things) and went of to say some very moronic things on television concerning science, the arrogance of science and whether a particle can hear and answer your prayers or do anything good for humans, that it is actually the devils doing etc etc etc.


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## Necris (Jul 13, 2012)

Edika said:


> On another note when the announcement of the discovery of the Higgs boson was made the heads of church in my home country instead of understanding God particle as the particle of God (which I am sure scientists never given it this term anyway, see mass media) they interpreted the particle that is God (as they always misinterpret things) and went of to say some very moronic things on television concerning science, the arrogance of science and whether a particle can hear and answer your prayers or do anything good for humans, that it is actually the devils doing etc etc etc.


I love that, apparently in their mind researching things to expand your knowledge is more arrogant than pretending you have an answer for something when you don't have the slightest clue, I see things differently. It's even more hilarious that based on their completely fatuous assumptions that the higgs-boson is literally God they get pissed of and scream "THIS MERE PARTICLE DOESN'T FIT THE GRANDEUR AND MAJESTY WHICH I ENVISION GOD TO HAVE!!!!"


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## djyngwie (Jul 22, 2012)

Inverted11 said:


> They can never say they're 100% sure thanks to Heisenberg's principle. In a sense, every particle is an imaginary one. But that's some pretty exciting news - CERN never ceases to impress!


The reason why nothing can ever be shown to be 100% certain is unrelated to quantum mechanics (interesting a subject as it is). It has to do with the way statistics work.


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## bob123 (Jul 22, 2012)

edit: stupid link doesnt work .


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## Jakke (Jul 22, 2012)

Inverted11 said:


> They can never say they're 100% sure thanks to Heisenberg's principle. In a sense, every particle is an imaginary one. But that's some pretty exciting news - CERN never ceases to impress!



Not really, see my answer below. That they can never be 100% is just inherent in quantum mechanics, there is always a possibility their results are due to chance. What they want to do is try to minimize that possibility.





djyngwie said:


> The reason why nothing can ever be shown to be 100% certain is unrelated to quantum mechanics (interesting a subject as it is). It has to do with the way statistics work.



But the uncertainty principle is related to quantum mechanics (even if it is not as Inverted said). It refers to the impossibility of knowing both properties in a pair of properties of a particle equally exact. Could for example be the position and momentum of a particle, when one property is measured more exactly, the other one becomes more uncertain.


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## Blind Theory (Jul 22, 2012)

Necris said:


> I love that, apparently in their mind researching things to expand your knowledge is more arrogant than pretending you have an answer for something when you don't have the slightest clue, I see things differently. It's even more hilarious that based on their completely fatuous assumptions that the higgs-boson is literally God they get pissed of and scream "THIS MERE PARTICLE DOESN'T FIT THE GRANDEUR AND MAJESTY WHICH I ENVISION GOD TO HAVE!!!!"



This is my family to a tee. When this was big news for a few hours the day of the announcement my mom texted me "did you hear about the God particle?" It doesn't seem like much by any means but it got under my skin ssoooo bad. After all, it comes from the same woman who tells me she will pray for me because I don't go to church and makes me feel like I'm a lesser person for it. People who are fairly religious can't be reasoned with. They see one thing, don't even know why it is nicknamed that and assume that it must be the work of God. It annoys me quite a bit. 

At any rate, woo hoo, hooray, yipee, first round's on me, etc, etc, etc....I can't wait to see what they focus their energies on a year or two from now once the Higgs is more researched and understood.


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## Jakke (Jul 22, 2012)

^We could get applications from this. When Einstein formulated the photoelectric effect it was basic research like this. However, today said effect is what most motion detection technology is based on, self-opening doors for example.


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## djyngwie (Jul 22, 2012)

Jakke said:


> But the uncertainty principle is related to quantum mechanics (even if it is not as Inverted said). It refers to the impossibility of knowing both properties in a pair of properties of a particle equally exact. Could for example be the position and momentum of a particle, when one property is measured more exactly, the other one becomes more uncertain.


The uncertainly principle (or principles, rather) is indeed integral to quantum mechanics. But it is distinct from the certainty within we can be sure a certain hypothesis is true. The latter is a purely statistical quantity - it has nothing to do with the underlying hypothesis being classical or quantum in nature.


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## Jakke (Aug 2, 2012)

BBC News - Higgs boson results from LHC 'get even stronger'


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## axxessdenied (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanks for the update! Can't wait to find out if this particle is actually the higgs boson!


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