# Headless Multiscale announcement by Jeff Kiesel - Vader Multiscale Fanned Fret



## blacai (Mar 26, 2016)

Ok...
here they are.


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## frahmans (Mar 26, 2016)

Cool. Now I'd like to consider a Vader.


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## BigViolin (Mar 28, 2016)

If my wallet was a little thicker I'd be reaching for it.


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## bostjan (Mar 28, 2016)

I'm curious which multistage guitars weren't comfortable for him. I have not tried a lot of them, but I've found the ones I have tried to be far more comfortable.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 28, 2016)

He may have tried the Ibanez Iron labels which have the zero fret in a bad place or he tried something with a much longer scale length than he likes. He is very fond of his 27" guitars so its no surprise he fell in love with a 25.5 - 27" fan. This came out a lot quicker than I expected which means the Aries multiscales are selling very well.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 28, 2016)

"Here comes the announcement that you all have been waiting for! Make sure to button that top button all the way up, kids!"

Something about this multiscale Vader design doesn't seem quite right though... I can't put my finger on it...


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## russmuller (Mar 28, 2016)

I like that the 8 string version is 26.5"-28". I feel like that's more appropriate for going that low. Kudos to Jeff and the guys at Kiesel for listening to their customers.


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## frahmans (Mar 28, 2016)

russmuller said:


> I like that the 8 string version is 26.5"-28". I feel like that's more appropriate for going that low. Kudos to Jeff and the guys at Kiesel for listening to their customers.



Isn't there a western saying "Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery?' 26.5 to 28 is strandberg ain't it?


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 28, 2016)

frahmans said:


> Isn't there a western saying "Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery?' 26.5 to 28 is strandberg ain't it?



not really.. its been done before. Strandberg uses many different fans, my personal favorite (and what I'd get if going fully custom) is the 25.5 to 26.25 fan such as the Chris Letchford sig.. For a 7 str anyways


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## Randy (Mar 28, 2016)

> Previously, I tried a lot of multiscale guitars and I wasn't a *fan*



:rimshot:


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## insaneshawnlane (Mar 28, 2016)

russmuller said:


> I like that the 8 string version is 26.5"-28". I feel like that's more appropriate for going that low. Kudos to Jeff and the guys at Kiesel for listening to their customers.




I thought the fan was 26-27.5?


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## russmuller (Mar 28, 2016)

insaneshawnlane said:


> I thought the fan was 26-27.5?



I was mistaken. You're correct!


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## bostjan (Mar 28, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> He may have tried the Ibanez Iron labels which have the zero fret in a bad place or he tried something with a much longer scale length than he likes. He is very fond of his 27" guitars so its no surprise he fell in love with a 25.5 - 27" fan. This came out a lot quicker than I expected which means the Aries multiscales are selling very well.



I was slightly disappointed with the Ibanez RGFF's, but I hold that the fact Ibanez did anything with multiscale at all really pushed other manufacturers.

Personally, when I pick up an extended scale guitar, to me, it feels better and sounds better, so I'm always a little taken aback when people say stuff like "Eww, scale length too long!!" That may well be why I like the multiscale guitars so much. To me, a 28"-32" multiscale for an eight string isn't too much, assuming the parallel fret is no more than 9. But then again, it's all personal taste.


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## mphsc (Mar 29, 2016)

Personally I like a 28" scale for my 8's but I could jive with 27.5". My FF 9 has a 30" scale and it plays more like a 7 string than my other guitars. I was a bit skeptical of the 30" but I can't see how 28" would work for a 9 string now.


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## InfinityCollision (Mar 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> I'm curious which multistage guitars weren't comfortable for him. I have not tried a lot of them, but I've found the ones I have tried to be far more comfortable.



Wouldn't surprise me if that was just Jeff talking out of his ass for his own benefit. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## UnstableinLINY (Mar 29, 2016)

This is picky but I wish the fretboard was cut off at the nut. Maybe wierder on a headless but the ibby could have that. I dont know why it bothers me but it just does.


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## A-Branger (Mar 31, 2016)

if you guys are into multiscales headless guitar, Ormsby is about to release their import run of them Goliath Headless GTR - Ormsby Guitars - Custom made electric guitars multiscales and basses - Guitar making courses - Multiscale and fanned fret guitars

you wont get all the "custom" options a kiesel might have, but its a better looking guitar imo. Colors are not definite yet, they are still are debating about what colors/woods to use over the facebook group

sorry for highjack the tread, but though you guys might like to check i out


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## gavinasaurus (Mar 31, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> if you guys are into multiscales headless guitar, Ormsby is about to release their import run of them Goliath Headless GTR - Ormsby Guitars - Custom made electric guitars multiscales and basses - Guitar making courses - Multiscale and fanned fret guitars
> 
> you wont get all the "custom" options a kiesel might have, but its a better looking guitar imo. Colors are not definite yet, they are still are debating about what colors/woods to use over the facebook group
> 
> sorry for highjack the tread, but though you guys might like to check i out



Well judging from the way people get treated on Ormsby's facebook group you clearly don't get the customer service you'll get from Kiesel either.


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## Lemons (Apr 3, 2016)

gavinasaurus said:


> Well judging from the way people get treated on Ormsby's facebook group you clearly don't get the customer service you'll get from Kiesel either.



I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed how badly people are dealt with over there.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 4, 2016)

Lemons said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed how badly people are dealt with over there.



Have to agree, there was a post where someone was bashing another user for selling their proto second hand and Perry went ahead and commented saying that he sold those NAMM protos that were beat to .... and had everyone's scuff and marks from being played over an entire weekend by a large crowd of people. 

Sometimes no response or a vague one that doesn't have those kind of responses and sarcasm strewn about is far better.

OT: I ended up ordering two FF V8's about a week ago. The wait for these is going to go by so quickly, but I'm excited to be trying the 8 string again in a quality build with some unique looks.


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## noise in my mind (Apr 4, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> if you guys are into multiscales headless guitar, Ormsby is about to release their import run of them Goliath Headless GTR - Ormsby Guitars - Custom made electric guitars multiscales and basses - Guitar making courses - Multiscale and fanned fret guitars
> 
> you wont get all the "custom" options a kiesel might have, but its a better looking guitar imo. Colors are not definite yet, they are still are debating about what colors/woods to use over the facebook group
> 
> sorry for highjack the tread, but though you guys might like to check i out



meh, I prefer the Kiesel.


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## Hollowway (Apr 4, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Have to agree, there was a post where someone was bashing another user for selling their proto second hand and Perry went ahead and commented saying that he sold those NAMM protos that were beat to .... and had everyone's scuff and marks from being played over an entire weekend by a large crowd of people.
> 
> Sometimes no response or a vague one that doesn't have those kind of responses and sarcasm strewn about is far better.
> 
> OT: I ended up ordering two FF V8's about a week ago. The wait for these is going to go by so quickly, but I'm excited to be trying the 8 string again in a quality build with some unique looks.



Yeah, that was me. I thought it was BS that some guys jumped on those protos, then priced them up and flipped them a couple of days later. I figured that a lot of people who would have been able to afford those guitar were now excluded because of the opportunists, and that Ormsby himself should have received the extra cash if anyone. I was super pissed when he seemed to take the side of the flippers. However, he DM'd me on FB and said he thought it was BS too, and didn't like it, but he's been burned by it a couple of times, and pretty much just accepted that it will happen. (I think that's what got me banned from the GP gear exchange too, interestingly.) Anyway, I rectified stuff with Perry, and feel much better about the situation. And I really like Carvin/Kiesel, too. But what I definitely know is that I have to not get emotionally wrapped up in guitar buying.  Or anything on the Internet for that matter.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 4, 2016)

I figure there's enough people out there doing far worse than making 3-400 on a guitar on the flipping side of things to make a big deal of the few dudes who ended up selling their guitars. His attitude and how he referenced the NAMM protos is far more alarming to me than a few guys selling their own guitars. Doesn't bode well when you tell your consumer base that you sold protos, paraphrasing "Beaten, worn, and played in during NAMM". Especially knowing that if he allowed guitars like that to go out, I wouldn't want to put any money towards him in the future. As far as you being banned there, I don't mod there anymore so don't know what to tell you 

Don't know why A-Branger chose to bring them into this thread but it's getting derailed pretty hard.


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## Lemons (Apr 4, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Don't know why A-Branger chose to bring them into this thread but it's getting derailed pretty hard.



Sounds like someone needs to make a GTR thread.

Back on track, does anyone find it weird that they've been hiding the headless bridge on all the promo shots so far?


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't think it's weird, may be just to surprise people with a single saddle setup like the AMX series. But he's mentioning finalizing design changes, so I can't imagine it just being an angled hipshot headless bridge.


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## Lemons (Apr 4, 2016)

Ahhhh I never heard that they were still finalising the design, as long as it isn't as bulky as the straight scale headless hipshot bridge I'm happy. I might even consider getting one of these as the vader shape seems to work a lot better as a multiscale.


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## A-Branger (Apr 4, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Don't know why A-Branger chose to bring them into this thread but it's getting derailed pretty hard.



I choose to do so, because I saw no threads for it but I saw this tread about FF headless guitar. I honestly like the the Ormsby design muhc muhc better, and I do am in the GTR facebook group and been following the design and first runs, and so far Ive seen a really good QC and attention to detail to them. I really think his guitars would be great and I jsut wanted to give you guys another option for those that didnt knew about the Goliath development

It was a matter to "here have a look at this too" and up to you if you like it or not

I never intended to open a discussion and get the tread derailed. I didnt knew there was some "issues" and some people arent happy with him?, so far I havent seen anything bad in the FB group. BUT..... since this is not his tread I decided to remain shut and not let the topic go out of hand.

sorry for derail the topic I didnt intended to do so, I was just showing a different option out there for you guys that like FF headless guitars


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## VforVendetta00 (Apr 4, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I don't think it's weird, may be just to surprise people with a single saddle setup like the AMX series. But he's mentioning finalizing design changes, so I can't imagine it just being an angled hipshot headless bridge.




I put in an order for a fanned V8 on friday, one of the things they assured me was that the bridge wouldn't be a huge metal monstrosity like the kahler multiscale bridges, but we'll see, if i'm not happy i'll return the guitar.


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## Hollowway (Apr 4, 2016)

Yeah, I priced out a couple of VM8s myself, but they quickly get out of my target range. I'm hoping to pick one up used. But even pick up a straight V8 when people start dumping them in favor of the drop tops and multis.


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## gavinasaurus (Apr 4, 2016)

Lemons said:


> Sounds like someone needs to make a GTR thread.
> 
> Back on track, does anyone find it weird that they've been hiding the headless bridge on all the promo shots so far?



haha I wasn't trying to start anything but I'm glad others have seen the way people are treated in there and agree.

But yes back on track. I kind of find it strange but then again if hipshot is making it just for them they may not be ready to unveil it to the world. who knows.


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## HaloHat (Apr 5, 2016)

InfinityCollision said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if that was just Jeff talking out of his ass for his own benefit. Wouldn't be the first time.



It would be pretty easy to make a long video of Jeff saying "I will never xxxxx" followed up by a video where he does just that lol. Not hating, just true. He does have a habit of contradicting himself. [accuse me of sugar coating that last remark and all I can say is guilty, ha.]

Jeff has a tough time giving others credit whether it be artists, customers or employees contributions and suggestions. FWIW [nothing I suppose] the biggest turn-off for me has been the crazy pricing increases [imo] on a lot of things. While I value the options Kiesel-Carvin offer [their greatest attraction to me anyways] the prices of many things I actually know something about, finishes and exotic woods, are in some cases just wacko.

Nobody's perfect. Jeff included. It is his company so he can do what he wants for sure. I wish them continued success.


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## spudmunkey (Apr 7, 2016)




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## Mathemagician (Apr 7, 2016)

Yooooooooooooo. That looks good.


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## VforVendetta00 (Apr 7, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I priced out a couple of VM8s myself, but they quickly get out of my target range. I'm hoping to pick one up used. But even pick up a straight V8 when people start dumping them in favor of the drop tops and multis.



well, my VM8 came out to $1470 but the only options i added were swamp ash body and stainless steel frets. everything else is just for looks. got a clear satin finish, couldn't decide on a solid color. i usually get a tung oil finish but the satin is nice enough. good thing they have such a long wait for this one, that way i can save up for the balance! lol


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## Lemons (Apr 8, 2016)

Dammit, that bridge still bugs me.


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## ikarus (Apr 8, 2016)

Lemons said:


> Dammit, that bridge still bugs me.



haha yeah, I laughed so hard when that super secret bridge was unveiled. I was expecting something more elegant and not just a version of the bulky bridge with a slightly different base plate and longer intonation screws.


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## Bigfan (Apr 8, 2016)

ikarus said:


> haha yeah, I laughed so hard when that super secret bridge was unveiled. I was expecting something more elegant and not just a version of the bulky bridge with a slightly different base plate and longer intonation screws.



As long as it's still mechanically superior to the strandberg bridge I'm happy. My straight Hipshot headless system is bulletproof.


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## cubix (Apr 8, 2016)

And how is it mechanically superior ? What's it made of ?


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## wannabguitarist (Apr 8, 2016)

That is a gorgeous guitar. I wish the scale options were different (shorter) for the 6 but I love that Carvin/Kiesel is bringing this to the market.



A-Branger said:


> if you guys are into multiscales headless guitar, Ormsby is about to release their import run of them Goliath Headless GTR - Ormsby Guitars - Custom made electric guitars multiscales and basses - Guitar making courses - Multiscale and fanned fret guitars
> 
> you wont get all the "custom" options a kiesel might have, but its a better looking guitar imo. Colors are not definite yet, they are still are debating about what colors/woods to use over the facebook group
> 
> sorry for highjack the tread, but though you guys might like to check i out



They're also expensive imports, not MIA. If it's an option I take MIA every chance I get


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## Bearitone (Apr 8, 2016)

InfinityCollision said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if that was just Jeff talking out of his ass for his own benefit. Wouldn't be the first time.



Agreed. He's trying to come off genuine but, its not quite there yet.


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## StevenC (Apr 8, 2016)

Jeff Kiesel helps me understand the stereotype of headless guitars looking ugly.


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## GuitarBizarre (Apr 9, 2016)

wannabguitarist said:


> That is a gorgeous guitar. I wish the scale options were different (shorter) for the 6 but I love that Carvin/Kiesel is bringing this to the market.
> 
> 
> 
> They're also expensive imports, not MIA. If it's an option I take MIA every chance I get



Whenever someone mentions this, I point out that place of manufacture does not dictate the quality of a product.

Look at bicycles - The top, top, top end, multi-thousand pound carbon fiber race bikes are all made in the east - Giant are the largest bike manufacturer in the world and they're from Taiwan.

When it comes to that market, nothing touches their carbon.

On the same token, look at the Gibson QC issues and the recent Kiesel trashtalk thread that got deleted - Plenty of trash USA guitars. 


Buy the products, not the factory they were built in.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 10, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Whenever someone mentions this, I point out that place of manufacture does not dictate the quality of a product.
> 
> Buy the products, not the factory they were built in.



Yeah but when you see a 2k guitar coming from a factory that produces sub 1k guitars mainly, you can't just ignore the logistics of why you're paying that much more for a guitar made by the same people. 

Also, dude. Just because you don't see the lemons doesn't mean that they aren't sent back to the factory, I know managers at large retailers who have rejected dozens of guitars in a shipment of import guitars due to terrible issues such as extreme fret sprout, dry wood, etc.

I will 100% support a USA factory because guys like EBMM and Kiesel have people who have been working there for decades perfecting what they do. EBMM had about a couple (2-3) dozen guitars with issues out of the thousands they outputted in the past 12 months. Lets say that EBMM put out 5000 instruments last year, and say that a maximum of 40 guitars came out with issues. Kiesel mentioned on their forums that they put out just around 4k instruments a year too with an extremely low number of reported returns or issues.

That's a 0.8% failure rate, and that's considering every issue a complete failure. Which isn't the case, since they go and fix any issues with pots or shipping/dealer damage that could happen. Even myself, I've owned 32 Ernie Ball guitars and I've had 2 with issues on a major level, one caused by the dealer and the other a manufacturing mistake which were both handled immediately. 2/32 is 6.25% failure rate. We can say and make statements all we want about not trusting the suspicion of buying imports, but you can't deny the numbers in these scenarios and the actual facts.

I'd love to believe your spiel, but one of my friends who manages a retail big music chain can come here and tell you how many Schecters and Indo Ibanez guitars he's sent back immediately. I'll give you a hint, the failure rate goes into double digits very quickly on imports  So I'll believe the numbers, and keep buying from manufacturers who actually put the time into the care an instrument deserves rather than throw more money into the pockets of companies who overcharge for the same exact quality the PRS SE hanging next to it is receiving.

EDIT: ....ed up my math the first time  doesn't change my point though.


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## BigViolin (Apr 10, 2016)

My calculator must be broken because 6.25% is a whole lot bigger than .09%.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 10, 2016)

BigViolin said:


> My calculator must be broken because 6.25% is a whole lot bigger than .09%.



I messed up the calculation on my end, fixed it. But that doesn't change anything I said, the 6.25% in a pool of 32 guitars I've personally owned is still a very small amount.

There's a very good reason why Perry and Ola are investing money and people into their import line, they're not up to par out of the factory. If they were they wouldn't need to dedicate resources in order to provide an extra QC layer that the factories just don't provide.


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## BigViolin (Apr 10, 2016)

Agreed on the QC issues. Ola has handled things about as well as he could by switching factories and what not but it's got to be a nightmare to be far down the list when contracting with big foreign companies that just pump out contract guitars. All I know is I want to wait until there is a history of good qc. I had a washberg for about 10 minutes before it went back in the box. Though an american company, they were contract guitars and were treated as such to maximize profits for Washburn. Way too much scratch for something so rushed. I would work with Ola again though as he handled it very well.

Not sure about Perry's situation but again, would want to wait until the bugs get worked out. At low price points I wonder if they ever will. John Suhr's Ramses line, as mentioned before went away because the qc investment just wasn't supported by the price point.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 10, 2016)

Yeah I made a lot of excuses for my first 2 Washburns, thankfully the only issue on my first one was the rather lackluster top. But every one of the Washburns after (6 to be exact) all had glaring issues and I lost money selling everything thereafter or just returned the 4 that I had bought new for a full refund.

Perry posted about some really insane issue with WMI switching owners or something to that effect, I'm sure it's in his thread in the dealer section. But yeah I'd love to see some consistency and growth over time.


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## Perplexed-Perception (Apr 10, 2016)

meh the Vader shape just doesn't do it for it me...


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## GuitarBizarre (Apr 10, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> A whole lot of missing the point.



You're arguing that because a guitar is US made it's more likely to be flawless than a guitar that isn't.

Not only is that not true for everywhere (Hello anywhere that pays decent labour rates other than the US< ie Japan, Britain, etc).

But it's also not a given. There are plenty of examples of absolutely shocking American QC. Carvin/Kiesel being one only recently, Gibson having been one for a decade or so at this point.

You can trot out the examples as much as you like, but the fact is that a good guitar can be made anywhere and a bad guitar can be made anywhere.

Most guitars made *anywhere* are exactly as good as they're supposed to be at whatever pricerange they're being sold at. But blindly assuming American made guitars will all be winners is ridiculous.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 10, 2016)

I'm afraid you're also missing my point pretty harshly there, because nowhere did I assume this.



> But blindly assuming American made guitars will all be winners is ridiculous.



Because the numbers are there, there is a far higher return rate from customer to retailer, and retailer to manufacturer for imports than there is in reputable shops in the US or anywhere else. I acknowledged from 2 examples that there have been a few guitars with problems, so where you're getting your quote above from is beyond me 

Gibson is going downhill all around, but guess what? They also don't treat their workers all that great and it's all documented, so surprise surprise. The guitars aren't that great either.

So yes, EBMM/Kiesel and several other US brands have far more consistency than imports. I am absolutely arguing that, because it's the truth. Yeah a great guitar can be made anywhere, but if..

EX: You get lucky with a Schecter KM7 and everything came out great, you didn't guarantee that the dozens of people on here alone didn't have issues with their finishes/volume pots/etc.

If you still believe your viewpoint that's fine, I'm not here to change your opinion. But I'm here to show you that blindly assuming that guitars regardless of where they're made will all be winners is factually ridiculous.


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## gavinasaurus (Apr 11, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yeah but when you see a 2k guitar coming from a factory that produces sub 1k guitars mainly, you can't just ignore the logistics of why you're paying that much more for a guitar made by the same people.
> 
> Also, dude. Just because you don't see the lemons doesn't mean that they aren't sent back to the factory, I know managers at large retailers who have rejected dozens of guitars in a shipment of import guitars due to terrible issues such as extreme fret sprout, dry wood, etc.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty positive you missed his point. You're comparing Kiesel to Ibanez and Schecter. Even their high end guitars are mass produced in a factory for practically nothing out of woods that are not even close to the same quality. Its like comparing Hyundai to bugatti. The point he's trying to make is if you take a Kiesel and compare it to a brand from another country that has a similar approach to making guitars it would be just as good. I'm from America and i love Kiesel and what they do and i love that Jeff listens to customers and tries to accommodate them. That being said I'm a huge supporter of Skervesen which is a custom shop in Poland. I loved my first one so much that I ordered a second one. The reason i bring this up is to show that a brand from another country that is building guitars in a similar way tend to be just as good if not better.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 11, 2016)

That's not my point, my point is that factories that mass produce things in Korea and such aren't as consistent as USA and like in your example Skervesen. Mayones as well, I have 7 of them and I'm a very big supporter of Mayones for their excellent craftsman ship and *consistency*. I'm actually not comparing, just arguing the point when someone threw a WMI made guitar in this thread as another option instead of the Vader. 

I only brought up the other 2 USA brands because there's an implication that QC is going down the drain in the US, when it's really not. I often see people say with confidence that WMI puts out amazing instruments 100% of the time, but I'd love for them to do more research and find out how many instruments they receive back without me telling them.


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## A-Branger (Apr 11, 2016)

*mod edit: let's keep this on topic guys*


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 11, 2016)

Jonathan20022 said:


> my point is that factories that mass produce things in Korea and such aren't as consistent as USA



Wait, I thought y'all were talking about Carvin/Kiesel?


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## A-Branger (Apr 11, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Wait, I thought y'all were talking about Carvin/Kiesel?



tread got derailed a bit, thats why I was trying to get that talk to continue on the new tread I posted 

sorry again



back on topic


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## getowned7474 (Apr 16, 2016)

A few pics of the six and eight string ones were added to their site.

I'm pretty exited, I put in a order for an 8 that's seafoam green, maple fretboard with no inlays, tung oiled 5 piece maple neck (thinner profile), and white pickups.


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## Maximal (Apr 18, 2016)

Am I the only one that does not like the nut not being angled? I know that it would be more expensive to design a new nut exclusively for the multiscale vader, but if they can do it for the bridge is should not be too much of a deal imo. Just feels like this might be improved at some point, just like bevel.


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## AliceLG (Apr 18, 2016)

I ordered a VM8 as well. Black Limba body, Maple neck w/black Limba stripes, flamed maple top and royal ebony neck, vintageburst satin finish with back of body and neck natural 

The nut also irks me a bit. An angled headpiece would've been better I think.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 18, 2016)

I don't personally care about the extra fretboard, my Mayones Regius FF has that and it's an exponentially more expensive guitar than any Kiesel ever.

I ended up ordering 2 of these, one for me and one for a good friend of mine as a thank you for being a homie. Mine is gonna be an 8 string in Arctic Pink on Flame, Antique Ash Body, Walnut/Maple 5pc Neck, Ebont Fretboard, and white pickups/logo. His is gonna have a Koa top, Ash Body, Maple/Koa 5pc Neck, Royal Ebony Fretboard, black hardware/logo. They should both be really awesome, can't wait for these to start coming out.


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## russmuller (Apr 18, 2016)

Maximal said:


> Am I the only one that does not like the nut not being angled? I know that it would be more expensive to design a new nut exclusively for the multiscale vader, but if they can do it for the bridge is should not be too much of a deal imo. Just feels like this might be improved at some point, just like bevel.



I'm pretty sure that the nut is angled. This doesn't look like a zero-fret to me:


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## gavinasaurus (Apr 20, 2016)

russmuller said:


> I'm pretty sure that the nut is angled. This doesn't look like a zero-fret to me:



I think he is just confused and is talking about the headstock and where the strings lock. Some people don't like the little extra unused fretboard after the nut before the strings lock. Seems kind of dumb thing to complain about if you ask me but i guess everyone has their own taste.


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## Hollowway (Apr 20, 2016)

Maximal said:


> Am I the only one that does not like the nut not being angled? I know that it would be more expensive to design a new nut exclusively for the multiscale vader, but if they can do it for the bridge is should not be too much of a deal imo. Just feels like this might be improved at some point, just like bevel.



Nope, I'm the same way. I'd prefer the headpiece be on the fan. I'm aware I'm in the minority with my unrelenting fan requirements, but I want everything to fall on the fan. Pickups, bridge, headpiece/headstock, etc. I'm finicky about design, and I'll pay much more for good design and a cool look. I know it's totally nonfunctional stuff, but I'm just weird that way. I actually much prefer the Aries multi to the Vader multi, because to me the Vader looks like a guitar designed for straight frets, and then shoehorned into a fanned model. The bridge area just doesn't look good. Whereas I think the Aries is beautiful as a fanned model.


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## Sleepy Eyes (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm curious if they're willing to do a option 50 for a zero fret instead of a nut


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## Hollowway (Apr 22, 2016)

Sleepy Eyes said:


> I'm curious if they're willing to do a option 50 for a zero fret instead of a nut



Lulz or serious? I don't think they'd want to go back down that road! I'll give you a nickel, though, if you call and try to get a zero fret and a bevel with the top wood cut off as an option 50. And a white to light blue burst.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 22, 2016)

I'll agree that having that extra bit of wood past the nut or past the last fret on some multiscales looks wonky in pictures, but honestly, my multiscale ACG bass has the extra wood at both ends and it has never once come into my mind when I was actually playing the damned thing.


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## Acme (Apr 22, 2016)

The zero fret was the only thing that kept me away from these. But if it'll have a proper nut then count me in!


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 22, 2016)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I'll agree that having that extra bit of wood past the nut or past the last fret on some multiscales looks wonky in pictures, but honestly, my multiscale ACG bass has the extra wood at both ends and it has never once come into my mind when I was actually playing the damned thing.



I've never really noticed it either despite so many people pointing it out on my Daemoness. Its just part of the design.


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## GunnarJames (Apr 24, 2016)

He contradicts himself like 6 times in that video alone. It's a cool enough guitar and I like that more and more headless and multiscale options are becoming available, but I'm really not diggin' the elitist attitude. The whole vibe they give off in general is very off putting.


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## noise in my mind (Apr 25, 2016)

I was about to pull the trigger on a V8, but after witnessing recent customer service "interactions" from Karvin I have changed my decision.


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## oremus91 (Apr 27, 2016)

noise in my mind said:


> I was about to pull the trigger on a V8, but after witnessing recent customer service "interactions" from Karvin I have changed my decision.



I'm not going to give them a pass but I feel like with the amount of stuff they are putting out those cases represent a vocal minority. Chris H has treated me really well with a ton of respect but I can't comment on those looking to return option 50s, buying overseas, and the like. If I say that I love my Vader then I counter your anecdotal evidence and we are back at equilibrium.

Furthermore if you are truly looking for a headless guitar your options are severely limited to a select few manufacturers. It really depends on where your priorities are. For what I wanted no one did it better at a better price.

I do agree that Jeff's vids and hashtags are ridiculous though.


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