# Do you really need Carbon Fiber in a neck ?



## pondman (Oct 16, 2013)

Good example of how strong a neck really is with the right construction.
And remember kids , he's not suspended to anything .


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## darren (Oct 16, 2013)

I wouldn't describe that neck as "stiff" at all. It's actually flexing quite a lot. But it's not breaking and is returning to its original shape because it's a good cut of wood. It's also laminated with a fretboard and has a truss rod in it.

Resilient, yes... stiff? No.

And no, you don't _need_ carbon fibre neck reinforcements, but they do make necks more reliable, and they tend to reduce dead spots on the fretboard because they DO make the neck stiffer. They also help with reducing warranty claims for warped necks.


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 16, 2013)

All wood necks will flex and shift over time, and with time you can get warping and stuff as well. laminated necks, reinforcements, and truss rods, all work against this very problem. A one-piece wood neck can be really good, but there's no real guarantee. It also takes more maintenance and care to make sure it stays good. The more you reinforce a neck, the more it will do this for you.

edit: I'm having a headless 8 string made which will have two KTS Titanium reinforcement rods in the neck. Should be interesting!


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## HaMMerHeD (Oct 16, 2013)

Titanium? Why? It's...really not very stiff. Not even as stiff as carbon fiber rods.


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## Deegatron (Oct 16, 2013)

Another thing to note about this demonstration is that this neck is headless. most break's seem to happen around the scarf / headstock transition area.... this neck is heavily reinforced in that area...
that being said... yes a one piece or scarf jointed neck can be very strong.


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 17, 2013)

HaMMerHeD said:


> Titanium? Why? It's...really not very stiff. Not even as stiff as carbon fiber rods.



It has several properties that makes it well suited for this. Notice how Ibanez are using these now


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## Given To Fly (Oct 17, 2013)

I think everything could use a little carbon fiber!


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## UnderTheSign (Oct 17, 2013)

You don't _need_ carbon fibre, look at all the guitars of the past century. That said there are arguments both for and against neck reinforcements like CF, titanium (didn't Rick Toone make these for a while?), aliminum, whatever. I do think CF and other reinforcements have their use but they're a little overrated/hyped right now.


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## darren (Oct 17, 2013)

Another factor is that good quartersawn hardwood lumber is getting more scarce. The trees being harvested are smaller than in the past, and quartersawn or rift-sawn lumber produces less yield per log than plain-sawing. Flat-sawn/plain-sawn planks aren't as stable as quartersawn, because the grain lines are oriented parallel to the string plane, unlike quartersawn, where the grain is oriented perpendicular to the string plane. 

Adding a couple of channels for CF or Ti rods is easy to do in a production process, without having to change to a multi-laminated neck blank.


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## HaMMerHeD (Oct 17, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> It has several properties that makes it well suited for this. Notice how Ibanez are using these now



Yeah...it's expensive and it sounds cool.


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 17, 2013)

HaMMerHeD said:


> Yeah...it's expensive and it sounds cool.



actually, the KTS rods didn't cost a lot AT ALL.


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## Keyvanizator (Oct 17, 2013)

I've homebuilt some extended range guitar and bass guitars and I had to work with badly dried woods and species that are supposedly not suitable for guitar contruction.
An example would be european white oak and beech wood for the neck.

I've successfully used 2 or even 4 carbon fiber rods to stiff those necks up and I've seen a noticeable change in the stiffness of the necks I build. The change is very obvious and I don't believe it is just because of wood humidity content.
Carbon fiber rods definitely make the neck stiffer. That is perfect if DIY people do not have access to proper wood, but it is also perfect to make your guitars last much longer, preventing warping and other unpleasant irregular movements.
Steel is another option I've implemented and I'm very happy about. It is heavier, but it works just as well. The weight it not an issue if: You plan the build correctly, wear a decent strap, lift like a man at the gym. (I like bragging about how heavy my guitars are).

Based on my experience, my custom RAN Crusher 8 string has 1 dual action truss rod and 4 carbon fiber rods. It was a first time for RAN having to put so many rods in a single neck, but I've been told they were happy with the result.
I'm not a rich person and I wouldn't want such an expensive guitar to last less than my life.


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## pondman (Oct 17, 2013)

I used to put CF in my erg's but don't bother now and its made absolutely zero difference to the strength and also there has been no issues on stringing up.
Its all subjective of course and each to his own methods. 
I obviously use multi-laminate and select strong woods.


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## The Reverend (Oct 17, 2013)

Interesting discussion. As just an average player, I don't know much about the construction of guitars, so I'm glad to be learning some things. 

What's the common consensus about three or more piece necks? I see them all the time in various customs and production builds. Do they offer more strength and stability to the neck, or is that more of a tone and aesthetics decision?


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## pondman (Oct 17, 2013)

Stability is the main reason .


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## Megaton_900 (Oct 17, 2013)

IMO its about stability and resistance to climate shifts.
Love hufscmid guitars too

Slightly off topic:
Ive heard it said that carbonfiber is not stronger than a good hardwood, so i though this would be a good place to post this too

If we model the guitar neck as a beam with a point load in the middle, the equation for its deflection is given by: 
delta=(Load*EffectiveLength^3)/(48*E*I)
where delta = deflection
EffectiveLength = length between the supports
E = Young's Mod
I = moment of inertia

I is also given by the integral of density*positionvector^2 dr, so if we assume both a solid (fully 1peice neck including fretboard, no truss rod) of both maple and carbon fiber we get
delta = (Load*L^3)/(48*E*density*integral of (position vectors)^2)

As both necks have the same shape, the integral of the position vectors will be the same.
Infact, if we want to test both necks in exactly the same way; Load, L, sum of position vectors (and the constant 48) will all remain the same.
thus we can simplify the relation further to:
deflection = k/(density*E)
were k is a constant.
Now if we take some data values, say, from the video, and a few quick google searches.
deflection = 1cm - 0.01m (my rough estimate from viewing the video)
density of hard maple = 700 Kg/m^3 (ranges from 0.6 to 0.75)
E of hard maple = 1.83 x10^3 psi = 12.6 GPa
substituting gives k = 8.82x10^10

now, for carbon fiber:
density = 1780 Kg/m^3 (can vary)
E of c.f = 150GPa

so the deflection that we would get from the carbon fiber if this man jumped on it is 0.00033m, or 330 micro meters 

That is 30x less deflection (and 2.5x the mass).
In fact, to get the same 1cm deflection you would need a point load of over 3 Tonnes!
Instead of a man, you could hang a sizable 4wd off it.

This does not mean carbon fiber is an ideal neck material by its self though. 2.5x the mass would be a heavy neck, and the dust it makes when being cut are noxious.
IMO it is a nice addition however, a bit like stainless steel frets.
*(happy to fix any mistakes if anyone spots one)


sorry for the derail 

tldr; carbon fiber is fancy stuff.
Edit: spelling


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## FIXXXER (Oct 18, 2013)

the stability benefits from carbon fiber of course, especially when it comes to ultra 
thin shred necks, but the main purpose of carbon fiber is to keep the neck straight IMHO


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## Youne (Oct 18, 2013)

It depends of the section of the rod !(for a one piece neck) The rectangular section (width perpendicular to the string plan) is stiffer than the round section (which is omnidirectionnal).

In case of multilaminate neck, you don't really need carbon (especially in quartersawn wood). It stiff even if the woods are in false quartersawn.

In French there's a proverb: "Qui peut le plus, peut le&nbsp;moins." Translation: "Who can do the more, can do the less"... If the CF is not really much stiffer, it isn't bad to put some !


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Oct 18, 2013)

When I think about this topic I consider all the many old Les Pauls, Strats and such floating around out there that have been playing for decades that have only a one piece mahogany or maple neck and a one way truss rod. If these guitars stand up for so long without major issues, then carbon fiber is certainly proven to not be necessary in a build, even in 7-8 string necks. I personally think there is more than enough stability in a 5-7 piece laminate with a two way rod to hold up for the instruments lifetime, if maintained and not exposed to harsh climate/humidity. 

The CF rods are more of a placebo. I wouldn't have a problem putting them in one of my own necks, but I wouldn't sweat it if they were not there.


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## Given To Fly (Oct 18, 2013)

Ironically, its my classical guitars that have the carbon fiber, not the electrics. Also, its not used in the necks but rather the bracing supporting the guitar tops.


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## ahvia_musicom (Nov 13, 2013)

darren said:


> Another factor is that good quartersawn hardwood lumber is getting more scarce. The trees being harvested are smaller than in the past, and quartersawn or rift-sawn lumber produces less yield per log than plain-sawing. Flat-sawn/plain-sawn planks aren't as stable as quartersawn, because the grain lines are oriented parallel to the string plane, unlike quartersawn, where the grain is oriented perpendicular to the string plane.
> 
> Adding a couple of channels for CF or Ti rods is easy to do in a production process, without having to change to a multi-laminated neck blank.



hi darren i got this from potvin's facebook,

Juha Ruokangas When I studied guitar making back in the early 90's, we got an assignment to test the stiffness / bend-strength of hard maple. So we planed a bunch of square (thickness=width) sticks. We had some slow growth stuff with tight grain, some faster grown, and pieces with straight grain, and some with grain run-out...The test environment was really simple - the pieces were planed to identical size, and we clamped them one by one to the end of a workbench and hung a weight to the other end and measured how much did the piece bend. In ALL the tests, without exception, the pieces bent the least when stressed to the flatsawn direction. I did these testings 20 years ago so I felt I had to refresh my memory, so this morning I pulled on my long white coat, squared a piece of straight grained hard maple, went to our secret wood research laboratory in the shop cellar, clamped the piece of maple to my scientifically approved test bench and hung an old Mercedes Benz break disc to the other end of the stick. I measured the amount of bending of this single piece of maple to both directions - flatsawn and quarter sawn. See the pics. The QS direction this piece of maple bent about 5mm more than to the flat sawn direction. This is very similar result to our school tests, which were done in a more controlled environment than my quick test today. Myth Busted! Test it yourself and you'll see. There's a lot more to making a good neck though - as anyone knows who has built enough guitars to really understand how these materials behave... Pic 1 - the test environment, sorry about the blurry image, too much secret stuff goin' on in the cellar... 




Juha Ruokangas Pic 2 - the readings on my measuring stick - I measured the amount of bending using an aluminum spirit level (distance from floor to the lower edge of the maple stick).









i do agree with juha and jack briggs though that no two woods even if they are the same species are alike


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## Necromagnon (Nov 14, 2013)

Interesting talk. 
Imo, CF is pretty useless unless the neck has been poorly made/designed. Truss rods are used for decades and works pretty great, with well selected woods. But sure it's a bit of security for neck stability, but not necessary and a bit too hyped nowadays.
In another hand (and it's personnal feeling), I'm not a huge fan of "stiffer-than-rock" necks, just because if one thing goes a bit wrong, the neck being too stiff prevents the use of the TR. It should not happen, obviously, on a well designed and built neck, but call me a pessimistic. 



> It's also laminated with a fretboard and has a truss rod in it.


The fretboard here is almost useless. It just keeps the truss rod in the channel. It terms of bending stiffness, the freboard being slotted, it won't help a bit. But yeah, the neck being not so long (it seems), laminated, and with a truss rod, it obviously holds really well 100 kg.



Megaton_900 said:


> Love hufscmid guitars too


The guitars are nice, but the guy is a total d***...


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## Halffarmer (Nov 14, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> The guitars are nice, but the guy is a total d***...



Why?


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## BouhZik (Nov 14, 2013)

Because his feet do not touch the ground anymore. One of those luthier who think they are gods since they are good at building guitars. 
This guy (correct if I'm wrong) ban himself from here because he was not allowed to promote his stuff. I wish he do the same thing on French forums. I mean, sometime its like he pay some fanboys to bump threads with his name in it... Its boring. 
To me, he is arrogant, pretentious and haughty. The definition of a d... . I dont care how good a builder he is. I'll never give this guy my money. /2c


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## jephjacques (Nov 14, 2013)

I remember a bass builder (I think it was Sadowsky) back in the 90s saying he thought carbon fiber rods were completely unnecessary. Your average bass has way higher string tension than your average guitar IIRC so if basses don't need 'em I don't see why guitars would.

The one thing I think they might bring to the table is additional stability on super-thin necks, and I imagine they help counteract some of the wood's natural expansion and contraction due to climate changes. But I've certainly never owned a guitar and thought "man, if only this thing had CF in the neck it would be PERFECT"


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 14, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> It has several properties that makes it well suited for this. Notice how Ibanez are using these now



It sounds fancy?


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## MF_Kitten (Nov 14, 2013)

TemjinStrife said:


> It sounds fancy?



It does!


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## jephjacques (Nov 14, 2013)

Titanium and CF are nice and all but I refuse to accept anything short of unicorn horn reinforcements in my guitar necks


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