# How do most bassist deal with playing with 8 string guitarist???



## Gmork (Jan 7, 2019)

Looking for advice from experienced bassists who play in bands with 8 string guitarists. 
The bass (in my case a 6 string) becomes a sloppy mess even just trying to tune down to match standard low F# tuning.
How do all these tech death bassists deal with it? Seems crazy to play a whole octave higher when you want the bass to fill in that sub sonic space. 
Please help!


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

You don't play higher, you play in unison.

Unless the guitar is an absolute mess, the fundamental of the bass should fill in the sound just fine.

But, that only works if the guitar actually sounds like a guitar, more overtones and transients than fundamental.

When you start tuning the bass really low, you need to invest in amplification that can handle the lower tuning. Wattage is your friend, and the speaker and cabinet design are even more important.


----------



## Gmork (Jan 7, 2019)

But im wondering what most of these types of bassists do? Do they all tune down to match the lowest string on the 8 string guitars and just deal with the floppy strings and almost inaudible low notes?

I use to have a 5 string bass that i had modded to use kalium strings, the lowest being a monster 185g and it still seemed floppy and kind of hard to play.

Of course good gear is what ya want but what do most people do as far as setting up their bass?


----------



## olejason (Jan 7, 2019)

If you want a low F# you need a longer scale to get tension on a string that big. 35" at least but another inch helps a lot. If the guitarists are tuning down even further I would just play in unison. At that point amplification gets to be a chore on bass and you'll run into just as many problems getting a good sound through the PA.

With really low tunings everyone needs to pay attention to how their instrument is EQ'd IMO. If you want any semblance of a tight sound it's going to take some work from everyone to get a good sound out of the band as a whole. Probably most important is insuring the guitars have enough mids and not too many lows.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

The bassist in one of my bands tunes his bass down a whole octave below standard bass "E" with a .210 string. It took some work with the bass to get it to play right, but it plays pretty easily for as gigantic as it is. At the same time, he mostly plays in unison with the low-lows on the guitar and the uber low stuff gets used for effect and on certain sections. Most bands tuned F# or lower are going to be in unison on the bass, or have an extended range instrument with a 37" or longer scale to keep decent tension/string gauge on those low notes. The standard F# for an 8 string is literally the same note as the second fret on a standard-tuned bass, but the guitar and the bass sound a lot different playing that unison note, so there is definitely room for bass in that range as long as the guitar isn't trying to push out a bunch of (unnecessary and mostly useless for guitar) low end.


----------



## ThePIGI King (Jan 7, 2019)

My 6 string bass was tuned a full step up which matched my 9 strings bottom 6. C#1 - D3. Still sounds like a bass and helps the mix.


----------



## NeglectedField (Jan 7, 2019)

I do hear tuning up is the way a lot of bassists go around it. 

Adam from Periphery does go the downward route and has one of his 6'es in F# with some ridiculous gauge Circle K strings but also they're Dingwalls which have the multiscale thing to help them along.


----------



## Dayn (Jan 7, 2019)

I either play in the same octave, or play below, depending on what the song calls for. If I want it to be punchy, same octave - if I want to liquefy bowels, octave below.

Longer scale is the way to go. I need to hit E0, but I can barely do F#0 on my bass, so longer scale it is. That, or I just use a synth.


----------



## Gmork (Jan 7, 2019)

What are some nice long scale fretless 6 strings? Any you can think of? And what would the best scale length be for tuning to low f#?


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 7, 2019)

either go long scale bass with big strings and a big rig. Or play in the same octave

if you play on the same octave its all a matter of proper EQ the instruments. Guitar players always tend to make their rigs too bass heavy. This is as when you play solo at home so the guitar sounds big and full, also as you trying to re-plicate the sound of a full band mix of your favourite artist (Guitar+Bass), if you hear the guitar tracks in solo mode you would see the guitars are more thin sounded. This allows more room for the bass and for the guitar to cut trough the mix easily.

Your guitar players are not gonna like it, but they need to cut down some of the low end of their instruments, this would allow you to fill in the gap and between the two of you have a full rich unison sound. Even at same octave the two instruments have different sound characteristic, so you can still sound like a "bass" and they as a "guitar". It would take a while, but at the end they would be happy when they hear their gutiar cutting trough a mix easily and when there wont be much lowend fight muddy mush on a gig

I would go for that route 1000x times first than trying to get the gear necessary for a low F# octave.

another thing you could do is to maybe add an octave pedal to your rig, and have it in like 30% mix. So it only creeps in a little to give you some rumble in the background?


----------



## buriedoutback (Jan 7, 2019)

IME:
4 string bass - tune up to F#/B/E/A
5 string bass - unison - B/E/A/D/G
Havn't used a 6 string, but I would think - unison - B/E/A/D/G/C


----------



## ixlramp (Jan 7, 2019)

Low tuned basses always bring out common miscinceptions =) It's the most misunderstood subject on bass forums.


Gmork said:


> The bass (in my case a 6 string) becomes a sloppy mess even just trying to tune down to match standard low F# tuning.


You don't tune down, you buy the gauges necessary for correct tension in the low tuning.


MaxOfMetal said:


> When you start tuning the bass really low, you need to invest in amplification that can handle the lower tuning.


No, the fundamental of F# at 23Hz is completely unnecessary to amplify, the 2nd harmonic at 46Hz is reproduced by normal amplification. You may just need a high-pass filter to remove the lowest frequencies.


Gmork said:


> But im wondering what most of these types of bassists do? Do they all tune down to match the lowest string on the 8 string guitars and just deal with the floppy strings


No, they buy larger gauges for correct tension.


Gmork said:


> I use to have a 5 string bass that i had modded to use kalium strings, the lowest being a monster 185g and it still seemed floppy


Then you need a larger gauge, what note did you tune it to?


olejason said:


> If you want a low F# you need a longer scale to get tension on a string that big.


Absolutely not. Correct tension can be acheived by using the correct gauges, F# at a good tension is possible on 34" or 35".
You wrote 'a string that big', if it was big enough it would already have enough tension.


Gmork said:


> And what would the best scale length be for tuning to low f#?


Longer is better but 35" is enough.


A-Branger said:


> either go long scale bass with big strings and a big rig. Or play in the same octave


F# doesn't require an unusually long scale or a big rig, but an unusually long scale helps the tonal quality.


A-Branger said:


> I would go for that route 1000x times first than trying to get the gear necessary for a low F# octave.


The only gear needed is the correct gauge of string.

A low B has a fundamental at 31Hz, most standard ampification doesn't reproduce 31Hz but it still sounds good. F# is the same.
Problems only occur once the 2nd harmonic isn't reproduced. As standard amplification reproduces down to roughly 40Hz, octave-down E is the rough limit for standard amplification.


----------



## ixlramp (Jan 7, 2019)

Here's a frequency analysis of an open E string, using a 2 second sample with the first 0.1 seconds removed (the attack). Bass recorded direct into computer.



The peaks are, left to right: Fundamental, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. harmonics.
The 2nd and 3rd harmonics are loudest at roughly -12dB, the 4th harmonic is the next loudest at -21dB, the fundamental is at -33dB and is as quiet as the 5th and 7th harmonics.

The lower a bass note is, the less important the fundamental becomes, because it approaches the lower limit of hearing and because it is less relevant to the frequency ranges important to creating a good bass tone.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 8, 2019)

The other thing is that you don’t have to just play the root note of the guitar chord, down one octave. If you’re playing metal, and already playing an ERG, don’t feel compelled to get super conservative on the bass stuff. I like to write the bass and guitar parts as two instruments, not a melody instrument and one to hold down the root. Let the bass work above and below the pitch of the guitar, I say. There’s no law saying the bass has to be lower.


----------



## DeKay (Jan 9, 2019)

Im in Drop A on a 5 string most of the time while the baritone guitar is in Standard E one octave lower. Sometimes I pull out the suboctave stuff and go to low F or F#!


----------



## TedEH (Jan 9, 2019)

This kinda strikes me as a "do whatever you think works for you" kind of situation. As was said:


Hollowway said:


> If you’re playing metal, and already playing an ERG, don’t feel compelled to get super conservative on the bass stuff.


To me, bass has fewer "rules" than guitar. You sit in a less-defined space, your tone and your gear can be/do whatever you want as long as you think it sounds good end you enjoy doing it. I normally play completely clean, and my tone is almost entirely defined by having enough high end to cut through the guitars in an almost percussive kind of way. Maybe if you're tuning really low, what you want is a bunch of dirt and drive to pull more of the harmonic content forward so that you're acting almost like a third guitar.


----------



## saved (Jan 9, 2019)

ixlramp said:


> Here's a frequency analysis of an open E string, using a 2 second sample with the first 0.1 seconds removed (the attack). Bass recorded direct into computer.
> 
> View attachment 66108
> 
> ...



What kind of program are you using?
I am using "room EQ wizard" to have database with the responce of every bass i am building,this way i can compare them,but i like the look of the chart you posted.My looks like that


----------



## ixlramp (Jan 10, 2019)

I'm using the 'Audacity' program on Linux Ubuntu OS.

Concerning being audible and scale length, the first notes on this video are F#0 on a 33" scale.
Some slapped notes (with a slightly glitchy recording) then 1 short plucked note.
When i did a frequency analysis of the loudest slapped note the fundamental was actually completely missing.


----------



## GenghisCoyne (Jan 12, 2019)

i hate that guys thumbnails


----------



## aesthyrian (Jan 13, 2019)

After The Burial used to(still may not sure) tune the bass the same as the guitars, with the low F an octave below. The guitars had no low end, so the bass filled that in and sorta created one singular tone. Lee talks about it at around 1:35


----------



## cGoEcYk (Feb 8, 2019)

I tune my 7 guitar to drop B + low F#. I keep my 5 string bass in standard (BEADG). When things get into that F# zone I just play in the guitar octave and it sounds great... compensating in tightness and attack, where guitar tends to be a little looser and less clear (on guitar it takes great lengths to get great clear tone in extended range). I find coarse gritty distortion blended and aggressive attack on the bass can work well too. On bass I go to tactical lengths to get great, clear attacks on the B and other strings... using a lot of slapping and percussive fingerstyle to get the the right attack/punch factor in. In aggressive br00ts I find that one of the best roles of bass is in terms of punch and attack. On bass I cut my boomy lows (sub 100hz, which no one can hear/mainly muddies mix) and push low mids (180 hz), common method for cutting through heavy guitarists. My bandmix tone sounds overly aggressive almost harsh by itself but blended in mix it ends up just how I want it.


----------



## sezna (Feb 8, 2019)

It’s music, not science. Be creative and create a space for the bass in your writing. If the bass becomes totally superfluous, perhaps don’t use it. Otherwise, write independent parts for it that add to the composition as a whole.


----------



## jephjacques (Feb 9, 2019)

I love playing bass in unison with 7 and 8 string guitars, really fills out the sound in a pleasing way. If it's good enough for Meshuggah...


----------



## Andromalia (Feb 10, 2019)

I usually play bass in a reggae band, so if I see a guy coming with an 8 string.... (Because, playing bass on reggae is fun)


----------



## Gmork (Feb 10, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> I usually play bass in a reggae band, so if I see a guy coming with an 8 string.... (Because, playing bass on reggae is fun)


You..... Do know where you are right now.... Right? Hehe


----------



## Masoo2 (Feb 10, 2019)

I feel unison rarely works as well as most people make it out to be, the reason a band like Meshuggah can get it to sound so good is through years of having some of the best producers/engineers/live sound guys alongside access to basically any gear they could ever dream of to create their dream wall of sound

On the flip side, it seems that many people struggle to get a low F#-E to actually sound good, sometimes even when using a 37 inch bass, so I guess the same problem is present there


----------



## GenghisCoyne (Feb 10, 2019)

Gmork said:


> You..... Do know where you are right now.... Right? Hehe



www.sevenstringtechdeathF#fannedfretbassistsonly.com


----------



## Andromalia (Feb 10, 2019)

Gmork said:


> You..... Do know where you are right now.... Right? Hehe



Yes, that's why I know what a dude with an 8 string is going to try to pull.  I'm always surprised when looking for musicians, people very often don't get that when I look for a reggae player, no, I'm not interested into making it tech djent reggae. Or whatever-genre-the-dude-is-trying-to-pull-post-reggae. I want someone to play reggae, not any musician desperate enough to play in whatever band and then try to direct it to his tastes.
And no, you don't get a guitar solo. That's what the trumpet player is here for.


----------



## cGoEcYk (Feb 12, 2019)

Also when dealing with any guitarist in a br00tal setting I like to show up with twice the cabinetry. Like if he has half stack, I show up with full. If he has a full stack and it's a d00m band then I'd have to buy another full stack. If there are two guitarists I dont join da band.


----------



## Bearitone (Mar 14, 2019)

Doesn’t meshuggah’s bassist play in the same octave as the guitars?

Edit: nvm someone already answered this


----------

