# Kiesel --- Never Again!



## MetalHead40

So before anyone even says it, yeah I just copied and pasted my post from another forum I'm a member of. Couldn't see re-writing anything different because:

a) Its what happened. 
b) I wasted enough time on the whole debacle as it is. 

I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to tell my story so people can make informed decisions based on others experiences.

Sorry, just had to put that out there because I've seen guys get bashed for copying their original post in another forum and putting it up here unchanged.

So a while back I received my Kiesel A6H build, and despite the fact that it was indeed a stunning guitar aesthetically, regrettably I returned it for a refund. I can honestly say that this was one of the most horrible customer experiences I've encountered, and I'll never even remotely consider another Kiesel product again. 

There were several reasons I finally had enough and asked them to refund me:

1) Horrible experience with Mike Jones, my sales guy. This is explained in detail below for those interested in a lengthy read.

2) Action problems related to the bridge saddle heights. (Pics of this below)

3) Failure by the techs to address my concerns despite a very detailed letter I sent in with the guitar and a promise made by their sales manager. 


Here is the conversation with Mike Jones, my sales guy:

Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy. 

The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.

Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):

Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.

Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.

Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.

Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.

Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.

Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.

Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.


So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.


I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:

Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar. 

Here he cuts me off real aggressively:

Mike: You know your being really rude!

Me: Excuse me?

Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me! 

Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?

Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM. 

Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.

Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.


At this point I'm ....ing beyond pissed, and I tell Mike to have a good day and hang up.

I immediately email the billing person that emailed me several days prior informing me the guitar was complete and explain how Mike Jones just treated me. 15 minutes later Mike Jones calls back and no apology whatsoever tells me the guitars done and its shipping Monday. I thanked him and hung the .... up.

So that should have been when I told them to keep the guitar and refund me, but unfortunately I didn't.

Now for the action problem I had that led to me sending the guitar in after speaking with the sales manager and their lead tech.

I sent the guitar in to have Albert their lead tech look at it after speaking with him on the phone. Talking to him gave me the impression he absolutely just did not care about anything I was saying. Spoke to him the first day and he couldn't think of anything that would cause the issues, so I asked if he could think on it and call me or email me by end of day. He said "yep, absolutely let you know before I leave today". Never heard back. Called him the next day and said "Hi Albert this is Mike, I spoke to yesterday about my Aries 6 issues. He says " Yeah?", and there's just this awkward dead silence. Just came off like he didn't care at all. Like why are you bothering me with this. He told me to just send it in because he still couldn't think what would cause the issues I described. 

Now I sent it back with a VERY detailed letter explaining my issues and asked specifically that they call me after looking at it and before sending it back because if they couldn't get the saddle heights corrected by shimming, or by replacing the .125" bridge with the thicker .175" baseplate version, then I would just want them to keep the guitar and give me a refund.

The sales manager said they would absolutely call me after looking at it and before sending it back to me because he personally put a note in the tech's work order. It never happened. They ignored my detailed letter and the "supposed" tech notes the sales manager put in the work order because after about a week I called just to see if they had looked at it yet and the same sales manager that promised they'd contact me after it was looked at said "oh, its done and FedEx is picking it up here today and its on its way back to you".

I asked if he could stop the delivery and he said he couldn't. Which I didn't believe but....maybe that was true, I don't know. I asked what they did to correct the bridge saddle heights and he said they adjusted the truss rod. I told him that I already did this in addition to making all sorts of other adjustments and that's not where the problem was stemming from. He said well, just try it out and we can go from there.

I knew for a fact that the issue could not be fixed with a truss rod adjustment, so after all the bull.... I had been dealing with I decided to refuse delivery when the FedEx guy came and it went back for a refund. 

Here is how the guitar came brand new from the factory set up:




















The saddles were completely maxed out on the 6th and 5th strings and then almost maxed out on the remaining four. I couldn't get the saddles anywhere near adjusted to match the fretboard radius. It played REALLY bad. Action was horrible. This was set up by them as requested by me in drop C with .012-.054 strings. No way the saddles should have been had to be set at that height, but even a fraction of a mm lower and there was fret buzz all over the fretboard. I thought if they replaced the .125" Hipshot with the .175" taller version that this could have corrected things. Or hell, even if they had shimmed the neck, or both? 


I'll just finish by saying the guitar was absolutely drop dead gorgeous, it came out exactly how I had hoped aesthetically, had no fit to finish flaws that I could find, had a great fundamental tone to it, and I truly wanted to keep it if they could have worked with me. Unfortunately however, the impression I got was they really could not have cared less.


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## Phantom

Damn... that sucks


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## MikeNeal

jesus, any pictures of the neck height in relation to the body?

i wonder if the neck was really high in relation to the body, or if the problem runs way deeper then that.

glad you got a refund


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## Chokey Chicken

Really hard to see these stories when my experiences are very much the opposite. Such a shame. Damn insane that they'd talk to you like that. Kind of asinine that they take parts to get their show guitars ready. 

Boo all around. Sorry you had to go through all that.


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## SpaceDock

Wow, can't believe the saddles. Was the neck angle or pocket depth totally boned or what?.? Why would they need to set the saddles like that?


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## Glades

Thanks for the heads up bro! 

I was ready to place an order with them here pretty soon. But after hearing this, my money will be going elsewhere. That's no way to treat a paying customer.


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## KnightBrolaire

I don't know how crap like this happens since I had an easy time dealing with kiesel for my vm8. It came set up perfectly too. Sorry to hear about your bad experience.


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## MetalHead40

MikeNeal said:


> jesus, any pictures of the neck height in relation to the body?
> 
> i wonder if the neck was really high in relation to the body, or if the problem runs way deeper then that.
> 
> glad you got a refund


^^^
Thanks, me too!

Not sure if this shows what your talking about. Its the only pic I have that shows the neck in reference to the pocket.


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## MetalHead40

Chokey Chicken said:


> Really hard to see these stories when my experiences are very much the opposite. Such a shame. Damn insane that they'd talk to you like that. Kind of asinine that they take parts to get their show guitars ready.
> 
> Boo all around. Sorry you had to go through all that.



I have worked in customer service in numerous fields over the last 20+ years and have felt like telling many customers how I really felt, but never would I actually say it to them. 

As for taking parts off a customer's finished guitar for any reason, yeah, that just blew my mind. My mistake was not telling him they could keep the guitar right then and there. I waited 3 months and my curiosity as to how the guitar had came out got the best of me I guess.


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## diagrammatiks

interestingly enough not the first time I've heard some questionable stuff about mike.

also wtf those saddles. how did it leave the factory like that. wut.


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## Jeffbro

MetalHead40 said:


> ^^^
> Thanks, me too!
> 
> Not sure if this shows what your talking about. Its the only pic I have that shows the neck in reference to the pocket.



Action looks ridiculously high. Did you try to lower the saddles?

There is no way that high of action had fret buzz. It's physically impossible unless the neck is warped or has truss rod issues.

Either way the tech who set this up should quit now.


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## ihunda

Thanks for sharing. This is unacceptable.
I actually have been triing to order something from kiesel last week and never got a reply from [email protected] so I guess this is a blessing in disguise!


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## Mattykoda

I legit said "oh my god" when I saw that first picture. Wow. Just wow. It's like they wanted a TOM bridge in a hipshot. Glad to hear you got your refund as others have not as been as fortunate.

* paging konstantine.... and holloway for a laugh


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## jbcrazy

This is disappointing. It's okay to make mistakes... but treat your customers well. There's no excuse for that treatment.

Hope they improve on this. Kiesel makes some beautiful instruments and Jeff seems really cool as well.


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## MetalHead40

Jeffbro said:


> Action looks ridiculously high. Did you try to lower the saddles?
> 
> There is no way that high of action had fret buzz. It's physically impossible unless the neck is warped or has truss rod issues.
> 
> Either way the tech who set this up should quit now.



With the saddles that high the buzz was almost non-existent. But with the saddles that high the action was completely screwed up. Like I said, the fretboard radius could not me matched by the saddles which meant the 6th and 5th were maxed out and the rest of the saddles ran down hill from there. Made for a real crappy feeling playing experience. Also, with the saddles jacked that high the intonation screws were almost impossible to turn. 

I did lower the saddles and the result was fret buzz city on the 6th and 5th just by lowering them slightly.


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## that short guy

It might've just been the angel of the picture but it kinda looks like the neck isn't sitting deep enough in the body. Maybe just the angel but there shouldn't be that much visible neck wood underneath the fretboard where the body and neck meet.


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## that short guy

Also sorry to hear that you had a horrible experience with them, especially considering that the experience I had was nothing but great. I really hope it's just a fluke and not a sign of what's to come from kiesle


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## Grand Rabbit

Drop C would probably be most effective on a multiscale or something with a 27" scale length, right? Idunno, but that's some communication break down right there. 1.5 hours later and only your 2nd call of the day is not 'rude' by any stretch of the imagination. Rude would be calling every fifteen minutes... sounds like he needs to check his ego, working for the illustrious Kiesel. 


However, a lot of Kiesel guitars come out spectacularly. It's unfortunate that yours got botched, because, with their resources, I'm sure they could have fixed the action on it in a few hours or less if they had just took the time and patience to do so. Things like this are what ruin a company in the long run. 


I still stand by Kiesel as being a great option for a custom guitar, but their customer service is not very effective. The person you talk to on the phone about placing your orders has very little to do with the rest of the operation, and the best they can do about checking on guitars is to look up information in their data banks. Beyond that, they're just sitting ducks waiting for angry customers to give them a verbal thrashing... sounds like Mike lost his cool and dealt some out, unfortunately so.


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## curlyvice

Yikes. That's brutal man. 

The guitar never should have been sent out set up like that, that's an abysmal setup and there is clearly some kind of structural flaw regarding the neck/neck pocket. 

What irks me the most though is not the actual guitar, but the customer service (or lack thereof) on their end. That's absolutely no way to treat a customer.


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## Herrick

It's like they really didn't want your money. They all but said, "Fuq you just get a refund".


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## MetalHead40

Grand Rabbit said:


> Drop C would probably be most effective on a multiscale or something with a 27" scale length, right? Idunno, but that's some communication break down right there. 1.5 hours later and only your 2nd call of the day is not 'rude' by any stretch of the imagination. Rude would be calling every fifteen minutes... sounds like he needs to check his ego, working for the illustrious Kiesel.
> 
> 
> However, a lot of Kiesel guitars come out spectacularly. It's unfortunate that yours got botched, because, with their resources, I'm sure they could have fixed the action on it in a few hours or less if they had just took the time and patience to do so. Things like this are what ruin a company in the long run.
> 
> 
> I still stand by Kiesel as being a great option for a custom guitar, but their customer service is not very effective. The person you talk to on the phone about placing your orders has very little to do with the rest of the operation, and the best they can do about checking on guitars is to look up information in their data banks. Beyond that, they're just sitting ducks waiting for angry customers to give them a verbal thrashing... sounds like Mike lost his cool and dealt some out, unfortunately so.



I don't know that you need a multiscale or 27" scale (preference I guess). I've had great results on 4 different guitars in Drop C with zero complaints. All were either Gibson scale length to 25". One of those is a Carvin ST300c and its been my favorite guitar since I got that four years ago.


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## Backsnack

How in the actual .... does someone with that kind of attitude work in sales? Yikes.

I'm amazed he admitted to you about stealing parts of customers' guitars for NAMM. That's a pretty terrible way to treat guitars that have been paid for and people are waiting for them.


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## MaxOfMetal

I wonder how long this thread will stick around..........


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## Bearitone

Jesus christ look at that saddle height.
Thats just plain retarded.
What a joke.

In my mind, thats just a GIANT f*ck you.
I can't think of any other explanation for that considering what Kiesel/Carvin normally put out.


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## Lemons

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wonder how long this thread will stick around..........



Maybe just save some time and lock it up right now, before it descends into chaos.


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## FrznTek

Wow, unbelievable.


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## Fathand

MetalHead40 said:


> ^^^
> Thanks, me too!
> 
> Not sure if this shows what your talking about. Its the only pic I have that shows the neck in reference to the pocket.



I don't know if it's just the grain or the angle of the pic - but that neck/neck pocket looks seriously f****d  Neck sits too high and is tilted upwards. basically a backwards shim. I wonder what the nut looked like...


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## Hollowway

Yeah, it's weird, because there does seem to be a customer service disconnect. I've currently got 2 Carvin/kiesels, and one of them had a bridge problem (which seemed odd that it got sent out that way) but I called and ended up getting replacement parts mailed out and it was pretty easy. But then I called a couple of months ago about a custom order and asked a couple generic questions, and was treated as if I opened the stall door and starting asking the questions while the sales dude was taking a dump. He acted like to was totally inconveniencing him and that it was rude that I'd even call and talk with him. I didn't end up ordering a guitar because he seemed put out that I was talking with him. So the only thing I can think is that these guys are maybe stressed out from the volume of stuff they have to do? It just doesn't make sense, because the person most likely to buy a kiesel is the guy who already has one - but we keep hearing of stories where existing customers get bad customer service. It just doesn't make sense to me.


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## prlgmnr

MetalHead40 said:


> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.



I think at that point I would have had to ask if sales guy and myself were speaking the same language.


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## sawtoothscream

I would have lost it when he said they might have taken parts of my guitar for namm. It's no longer their item to take parts off, I would want a discount at the very least.


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## -JeKo-

Wow, that looks awful. For comparison, here's my Aries 6H I just received (see the attachment). I'd prefer the base plate to be a little taller so that the saddle would sit lower. Now the low-E saddle sits pretty high and the side feels sharp.


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## laxu

That should not have left the factory in the first place and the treatment you got from the rep was totally uncalled for. Mike Jones has been working for them long enough that even if he had a bad day he should not have given you that kind of treatment. I have only communicated with Kiesel via email and they were always friendly and accommodating and the two guitars I have from them are both well made overall.

It's pretty obvious something has gone severely wrong with the neck pocket or neck because on my Kiesel AM7 the neck is straight in that section where on yours it rises up. Nothing that could not have been fixed by sanding either the neck pocket or the bottom of the neck.

I also can't believe the company would not have enough parts in stock to put on the NAMM guitars, let alone admit that they cannibalize customer guitars for them.


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## marcwormjim

Not dogpiling or making excuses for one side or the other when I say it's worth mentioning that they've been having supply issues with Hipshot, JCustom (which they dropped in favor of Hipshot) and Seymour Duncan; often delaying builds for many weeks while they wait on bridges or pickups. I haven't seen anyone on the Kiesel board post about receiving the new/tweaked models that were made available for ordering at the end of December. That and how backed-up NAMM makes the preceding and following 8-10 week production cycles gave me the impression that Mike was just trying to be transparent and blunt in telling the guy what was going on; and that it was out of his hands.

That doesn't make up for anything, and I hope the OP gets/was finally refunded; so he can put all this nonsense behind him.


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## Black_Sheep

Lemons said:


> Maybe just save some time and lock it up right now, before it descends into chaos.



Why exactly? 

Because someone once said something negative about Kiesel?


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## MaxOfMetal

Lemons said:


> Maybe just save some time and lock it up right now, before it descends into chaos.



I refuse to lock threads when there is a legitimate complaint.


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## mnemonic

-JeKo- said:


> Wow, that looks awful. For comparison, here's my Aries 6H I just received (see the attachment). I'd prefer the base plate to be a little shorter so that the saddle would sit lower. Now the low-E saddle sits pretty high and the side feels sharp.



I put a hipshot hardtail on a parts stratocaster I put together, and my saddles were in a similar position and the sharp corner was kind of annoying. I gave it a couple light passes with a metal file, right on the pointed corner of the saddle, and it solved the problem. Super comfy now. 

Granted, the corner of the saddle is now silver instead of black, but it's not very noticeable, and my plan with the guitar was for it to look beat up and worn in. 




Black_Sheep said:


> Why exactly?
> 
> Because someone once said something negative about Kiesel?



There are some hardcore kiesel fanboys on the forum as well as some hardcore kiesel haters. The first couple kiesel problem threads I remember they butted heads and it got kind of out of hand. However the last few threads like this have been more civil so I doubt there will be much of a problem. 

Unless the mod was alluding to back when kiesel was a forum advertiser (which I think they're not now?) and a kiesel complaint thread got deleted with (initially) no explanation.


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## Lemons

MaxOfMetal said:


> I refuse to lock threads when there is a legitimate complaint.



Don't stress, it was a bit of a joke/maybe a little jab at how "passionate" people get about Kiesel on this forum. Personally I think the level of moderation on Sevenstring is great.


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## A-Branger

man you were very brave and calm. 

I would have built up with his attitude and completely lost it when he said that my *yours* guitar might be getting the parts off to be used for a NAMM guitar.

I completely understand the NAMM part. FAir enough, but that its something that you would never ever tell a customer. You simply say, "we are busy with NAMM stuff as our #1 priority, so although you got an email, that might be an automated repply (whatever excuse), but your guitar might be on line with several others behind the NAMM stuff.. so let me check........oh! seems yours it is ready blh blah"

seriusly I would have call him off all the crap and demand to speak with a manager/higher possition person to formaly complain about the why your guitar might be taken appart after being paid off and you had the notification of it being ready to ship


As for the neck/bridge. Thats the neck being on a back angle, reason whyyou need such high bridge sadles and fret buzz. I got the same with my old Ibanez bass, but the neck being forward, action was way too high with the sadles all the way down to max point.

This is something weird as they do everything in CNC, and ideally they have high quality control. Regardless on the why the neck pocket end up like that, that guitar should have never leave the factory. At what point the settup guy at the end of the asembly line, grabed the guitar to make the intonation/check ect. Had a look at it and say "this is wrong". And then took it to their supervisor which he should ahve said "yes, it is wrong indeed", but instead he said "nah, jsut leave it like that"....... or even worse the settup guy just "meh, F*& it!, I dont care today"..... both situations shown a lack of a detail and proud QC for what it should be a "custom shop" .....Even worse is when you send it back, they should be like "what, this is soo wrong?, who QC this??" and get to the bottom of it and apologize to you in behalf of a bad worker, but instead they rolled with it like if that was right and normal?

Not gonna deny, they do amazing beautiful instruments. But something must be happening there. This might be the wrong of 1 guy, or 2. But also one more in the customer service dep too, and the ones who "took care" of the guitar when you send it back. So cant really blame this to a "bad day at work" as its multiple people involved. 

really sorry to hear your story bro


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## Chokey Chicken

It's sort of been mentioned already, but that neck angle looks ....ed to me. Like if they put a shim at the edge of the heel instead of the back so the headstock tips forward. That would explain the saddle/buzz problems, as this makes the 24th fret lower and the 1st fret higher. A normal saddle hight would then have the string very high off the top fret.

A simple fix would be to insert a shim, as I'm betting the pocket or neck angle was just cut wrong. Not ideal, and they should have known better, but it's way more smart than cranking the saddles. To be perfectly honest, anyone who does that to the saddles without thinking that something might be wrong somewhere does not belong working on guitars, and should legitimately be fired. I'm not saying that to be cute or hyperbolic, but as truth. Anyone who knows anything about guitars could tell you that you shouldn't need to set the saddles like that ever.


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## MrYakob

Damn.... I'm really sorry you had such a bad experience. I legitimately laughed out loud when I saw the saddles pic until I realised it wasn't a joke. Who in their right might would think that's okay??  (Not to mention the way the sales guy handled that conversation....)


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## vejichan

Lemons said:


> Don't stress, it was a bit of a joke/maybe a little jab at how "passionate" people get about Kiesel on this forum. Personally I think the level of moderation on Sevenstring is great.



To me when buying gear the service is equally as important as the gear you would be buying. Frankly I find it hard to put money into something when the guy at the other end rubs me the wrong way.


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## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wonder how long this thread will stick around..........



They're not a sponsor so I don't see the owner doing anything about it, and I don't think any of us have a problem with legitimate complaints and sharing of information.


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## MetalHead40

Backsnack said:


> How in the actual .... does someone with that kind of attitude work in sales? Yikes.
> 
> I'm amazed he admitted to you about stealing parts of customers' guitars for NAMM. That's a pretty terrible way to treat guitars that have been paid for and people are waiting for them.



You and me both. When he stated that for the second time regarding maybe having to take parts from a customers finished guitar, I about came un-glued. That's when I responded saying "So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it?" That set him off and he then became even more aggressive than he was already being.


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## FifthCircleSquared

As a Carvin/Kiesel kinda fanboy, yeah based on the pics I'd say that guitar needs work. If the fixes are outside of your comfortable adjustment range just get a refund (I wouldn't accept a rebuild if there are no opt 50's on the guitar and you already had a bad experience with the support team) and either put a new order in or take your money to a different shop. It's your guitar and no one can fault you here for being unsatisfied with the product you received.

I've received two great instruments from Carvin (Haven't ordered since the name change), one a custom order, another I bought in stock. I live clear across the US from the factory. Both instruments are 25" scale and have been tuned to C standard / Drop B with no issues previously. 

I'd say you got a lemon, it sucks, do what it takes to make it right. EDIT: And don't take "No" for an answer.


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## bostjan

FifthCircleSquared said:


> As a Carvin/Kiesel kinda fanboy, yeah based on the pics I'd say that guitar needs work. If the fixes are outside of your comfortable adjustment range just get a refund (I wouldn't accept a rebuild if there are no opt 50's on the guitar and you already had a bad experience with the support team) and either put a new order in or take your money to a different shop. It's your guitar and no one can fault you here for being unsatisfied with the product you received.
> 
> I've received two great instruments from Carvin (Haven't ordered since the name change), one a custom order, another I bought in stock. I live clear across the US from the factory. Both instruments are 25" scale and have been tuned to C standard / Drop B with no issues previously.
> 
> I'd say you got a lemon, it sucks, do what it takes to make it right.



I don't speak for the entire forum, but, seriously, reread the OP. The biggest issue here, by far, is the customer service, not the workmanship.

I, personally, would be quite frustrated to have bought a custom and received a lemon, but for a sales rep to berate me over the phone and a tech to unapologetically brush me off, the company would have one chance with me to fix those sorts of things, and that clearly isn't happening in this instance, so it really makes no sense for this customer to continue doing business with Kiesel. Clearly, in this case, Kiesel doesn't want this customer's business, and the customer no longer wants to do business with Kiesel, so the only outcome of this that makes any sense is to terminate the business relationship.

I'm sure there are still enough Kiesel loyalists and others simply unable to find the short turn-around-time and low price for a custom elsewhere, to keep this company going strong, financially.

If I was a luthier, though, I would be very upset by this. Take away my potential customers and then screw them over with an unplayable instrument and treat them like absolute garbage during and after the process, and yet continue to get more customers without any problem, whilst I bend over backwards to keep my small customer base happy?!


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## MetalHead40

FifthCircleSquared said:


> As a Carvin/Kiesel kinda fanboy, yeah based on the pics I'd say that guitar needs work. If the fixes are outside of your comfortable adjustment range just get a refund (I wouldn't accept a rebuild if there are no opt 50's on the guitar and you already had a bad experience with the support team) and either put a new order in or take your money to a different shop. It's your guitar and no one can fault you here for being unsatisfied with the product you received.
> 
> I've received two great instruments from Carvin (Haven't ordered since the name change), one a custom order, another I bought in stock. I live clear across the US from the factory. Both instruments are 25" scale and have been tuned to C standard / Drop B with no issues previously.
> 
> I'd say you got a lemon, it sucks, do what it takes to make it right. EDIT: And don't take "No" for an answer.



Thanks man. Like I said I have a 4 year old Carvin, and its my main player. It had an issue too when I received it new, but I dealt with it, accepted it, fixed it myself, and its been a great guitar.

As far as not taking no for an answer, no worries I've already been refunded. They at least made good on that.


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## diagrammatiks

did you post this on the kiesel forum?
i wanna see pitchforks for the lols.


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## MikeNeal

That neck/neck pocket is 100% the problem. Which is strange because they use cnc. The fact that no one caught that before it left is mind boggling.


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## Rawkmann

I had similar problems with Kiesel last year on a build that I ended up having to sell at a loss. I placed the order not realizing certain specs weren't going to play well together and contacted them just a few days later and discussed the problem with a rep and requested it be changed, but was told 'nope, its already been finalized.' Not like the guitar was even remotely close to being done, this was literally just a few days after the initial order request. I hoped for the best until the guitar finally showed up and lo and behold, I couldn't get the action right (and I'm not even a low action freak) or intonated correctly. Like Yours, my guitar was aesthetically gorgeous, but fundamentally flawed so I just cut my losses and said never again to Kiesel.


----------



## oracles

bostjan said:


> I'm sure here are still enough Kiesel loyalists and others simply unable to find the short turn-around-time and low price for a custom elsewhere, to keep this company going strong, financially.



Even then, some of the loyalists are getting f*cked over on shoddy builds and the lacklustre customer service, and more than a few are getting tired of going into bat for them when it seems like more and more people are emerging with stories and pics of inexcusable flaws and similar experiences of poor customer service. 

There's a member here who I won't name, he can chime in if he wants to, who owns more than one K series, but had issues with one. It came back from repairs in worse shape than it was sent in, and rather than take the time to fix it properly, they blacklisted him from ordering ever again and not so politely told him to f*ck off. A guy that just poured close to $10k into what's being hailed as their "top shelf" product, and you can't even be bothered to take care of him? Says plenty. 

They aren't even taking the time to build for their artists properly. This is an artist build (I won't say for who) "personally built by Jeff himself" and the routes for the truss rod and carbon fibre inserts aren't even straight. I would've cancelled my endorsement immediately had I been sent that progress pic. Kiesel have enough problems with unstable necks, there's no need to make it worse.


----------



## Edika

They do offer the Hipshot, TonePros style bridges, Floyd Rose and Wilkinson. Since the Floyd and Wilkinson are recessed and the Hipshots are not really tall, I assume they'd require the same neck angle and thus CNC programs. For their Tonepros style bridge, which I think is recessed, it might require a different neck angle than the other style bridges and this seems like an incorrect bridge or better yet an incorrect build for the Hipshot bridge.

And yes this customer service is horrendous.


----------



## kevdes93

Yet another reason to never order a kiesel. I'd be absolutely furious. That really is some disgusting customer "service".


----------



## bostjan

Edika said:


> They do offer the Hipshot, TonePros style bridges, Floyd Rose and Wilkinson. Since the Floyd and Wilkinson are recessed and the Hipshots are not really tall, I assume they'd require the same neck angle and thus CNC programs. For their Tonepros style bridge, which I think is recessed, it might require a different neck angle than the other style bridges and this seems like an incorrect bridge or better yet an incorrect build for the Hipshot bridge.
> 
> And yes this customer service is horrendous.



Photos can be misleading, but my first inclination was to think that the body and the neck appeared to be at an odd angle.

If there is a different drawing for the tonepros and somehow the thing was totally machined wrong, it might make physical sense, but how the hell did no one catch this before the guitar was shipped?!

More likely it was caught and the apathetic tech who noticed it shrugged and proceeded to ship the guitar as is.


----------



## rifftrauma

I feel like this is another issue of expanding too fast in to many area's of production and not taking the proper time to make sure you've got the logistics in place to properly meet demand. 

I've deleted most Kiesel things off my social media feed because it constantly seemed like they we're pushing something new. A new model every 3-4 months, new limited runs, new colors and options, blah blah blah. I felt like it was this cacophony of "SHINY NEW THING" constantly. 

All of this is great, except... the issues with Buckeye burl tops cracking and having to be filled, luminlays with no black rings on maple fretboards, the vader zero fret issue and issues like OPs.

Jeff was always commenting on his people working overtime to meet the demands. Why not take care of what you've got instead of pushing a new run and doing a half-assed job, or releasing a new model that doesn't have all the kinks worked out? Or if these really are isolated incidents, why not properly train your customer service to handle the one or two issues here and there instead of turning it into a cluster .... for a paying customer?

I've had my own personal issues with the company and won't be buying another guitar from them in the future. Money talks.


----------



## mnemonic

Rawkmann said:


> I had similar problems with Kiesel last year on a build that I ended up having to sell at a loss. I placed the order not realizing certain specs weren't going to play well together and contacted them just a few days later and discussed the problem with a rep and requested it be changed, but was told 'nope, its already been finalized.' Not like the guitar was even remotely close to being done, this was literally just a few days after the initial order request. I hoped for the best until the guitar finally showed up and lo and behold, I couldn't get the action right (and I'm not even a low action freak) or intonated correctly. Like Yours, my guitar was aesthetically gorgeous, but fundamentally flawed so I just cut my losses and said never again to Kiesel.



I'm curious what specs you ordered that didn't work well together. 

Regardless of what you order, it should be the builders responsibility to point out potential issues, after all, if you had the expertise to spot them, you'd be building your own guitar. 

Kinda like if I ordered a 9 string guitar with a 22" scale and 2" nut width, id expect the builder to point out why it's a bad idea rather than just build it and say "hey, it's what you ordered!"


----------



## saminator

This is a huge bummer from the perspective of someone who's never owned anything from Kiesel, but was highly looking forward to ordering a guitar from them. I'm hopeful this is just a rocky phase and will be smoothed out in the near future. I'll be paying close attention to stuff like this until then...


----------



## Rawkmann

mnemonic said:


> I'm curious what specs you ordered that didn't work well together.
> 
> Regardless of what you order, it should be the builders responsibility to point out potential issues, after all, if you had the expertise to spot them, you'd be building your own guitar.
> 
> Kinda like if I ordered a 9 string guitar with a 22" scale and 2" nut width, id expect the builder to point out why it's a bad idea rather than just build it and say "hey, it's what you ordered!"



It was a radius mismatch issue. I requested a 20" radius fretboard with a Floyd Rose bridge. The Floyd's radius (specifically at the nut) does not align properly with that flat of a board causing issues. Even Carvin specifically acknowledged this problem, thats why 20" radius with the Floyd is NOT a selectable option in their builder anymore. I was not aware because I ordered over the phone, but after doing some research the problem became clear and I contacted them about the issue, but apparently too late


----------



## Viginez

not surprised that some companies behave sometimes like that, not cool
but that setup, wow
there must be something wrong with the neck/neck pocket


----------



## EverDream

MetalHead40 said:


> That set him off and he then became even more aggressive than he was already being.



I have a gut feeling that... after you sent that email to whoever you did explaining how wrong that guy was treating you... they got after him and then he probably was super pissed (seeing as he already seemed agitated), and when no one was looking applied force to the neck to screw it up, on purpose to get what he felt was "revenge" for getting in trouble with his boss or whatever.

I know it sounds crazy, and hopefully that's not what happened, but if things don't make any sense... if things just don't add up... then it might be a possibility. And he probably was the last person to handle it who knew anything about guitars, so therefore whoever shipped it wouldn't have known how it should look anyway so they didn't realize it had been screwed up.

It seems to me like there's something not quite mentally stable about this guy, with how you describe him (at least not on that day), that's why I wonder if maybe he did something to the guitar to mess it up on purpose. Either a calculated sabotage or from a physical temper tantrum, lol.

Either way, I'm probably never going to buy a guitar from them after hearing about this (wasn't planning on it anyway though). Just horrible customer service. I'm sorry you were treated like that, it was not right, you did nothing wrong, nor were you rude at all. I hope something really good happens in your life to compensate for this unfair experience you had. Maybe you'll get a good deal on a guitar you want, and excellent customer service perhaps? That's what I hope for anyway. I wish you the best!

Cheers!


----------



## xzacx

Rawkmann said:


> It was a radius mismatch issue. I requested a 20" radius fretboard with a Floyd Rose bridge. The Floyd's radius (specifically at the nut) does not align properly with that flat of a board causing issues. Even Carvin specifically acknowledged this problem, thats why 20" radius with the Floyd is NOT a selectable option in their builder anymore. I was not aware because I ordered over the phone, but after doing some research the problem became clear and I contacted them about the issue, but apparently too late



Sucks that you ended up having to sell at a loss, because that's something CAN be made to work. Check out HighGain510's modded PRS Holcomb thread. I believe he said he was able to order a custom nut from Floyd Rose. I don't mean to add salt to the wound, but wanted to give you a heads up if you're ever looking for something like that in the future. As someone who loves 20" boards, I was excited to hear it's possible.


----------



## MetalHead40

EverDream said:


> I have a gut feeling that... after you sent that email to whoever you did explaining how wrong that guy was treating you... they got after him and then he probably was super pissed (seeing as he already seemed agitated), and when no one was looking applied force to the neck to screw it up, on purpose to get what he felt was "revenge" for getting in trouble with his boss or whatever.
> 
> I know it sounds crazy, and hopefully that's not what happened, but if things don't make any sense... if things just don't add up... then it might be a possibility. And he probably was the last person to handle it who knew anything about guitars, so therefore whoever shipped it wouldn't have known how it should look anyway so they didn't realize it had been screwed up.
> 
> It seems to me like there's something not quite mentally stable about this guy, with how you describe him (at least not on that day), that's why I wonder if maybe he did something to the guitar to mess it up on purpose. Either a calculated sabotage or from a physical temper tantrum, lol.
> 
> Either way, I'm probably never going to buy a guitar from them after hearing about this (wasn't planning on it anyway though). Just horrible customer service. I'm sorry you were treated like that, it was not right, you did nothing wrong, nor were you rude at all. I hope something really good happens in your life to compensate for this unfair experience you had. Maybe you'll get a good deal on a guitar you want, and excellent customer service perhaps? That's what I hope for anyway. I wish you the best!
> 
> Cheers!



Thanks for the kind words dude!

I have to point out here however that Mike's aggressive attitude with me was all prior to my sending an email to the billing administrator. He had this attitude from the moment I called him and it only got worse the 2nd time I contacted him that day.

I don't think he had anything to do with the outcome of that guitar.


----------



## JSanta

Rawkmann said:


> It was a radius mismatch issue. I requested a 20" radius fretboard with a Floyd Rose bridge. The Floyd's radius (specifically at the nut) does not align properly with that flat of a board causing issues. Even Carvin specifically acknowledged this problem, thats why 20" radius with the Floyd is NOT a selectable option in their builder anymore. I was not aware because I ordered over the phone, but after doing some research the problem became clear and I contacted them about the issue, but apparently too late



This goes right back to the customer service issue. When I built my DC700 with Steve, he said straight up they can't make that radius work with a Floyd. If I ask for a very light guitar but order solid mahogany, the builder should chime in - that's why they're there. I'm also surprised this happened with Mike - I know he can be a short sometimes, but I've never heard of him being downright rude. Really sucks this all happened to you.

They build me a Vader before the DC700 and I felt that the quilt was really subpar compared to nearly everything else coming out of the shop at that time, and they happily built the DC700 instead (which came out killer). 

I get that there will be bum guitars every once in a while, but the customer service issue is unacceptable, regardless of why. If you're having a s**t day, take a break and get some air before talking to customers like garbage.


----------



## possumkiller

There was never any danger of me getting a kiesel based on the terrible designs and wasting half a figured top. Now I know to tell anyone I know that might be interested not to bother dealing with these jerks.


----------



## Glades

possumkiller said:


> There was never any danger of me getting a kiesel based on the terrible designs and wasting half a figured top. Now I know to tell anyone I know that might be interested not to bother dealing with these jerks.



I am glad I found this thread, and I thank the OP for starting it. I honestly had no clue of all the issues with Kiesel and I was ready to place an order, which I will obviously not place now. Since reading this, I found the Kiesel Forums, where there are hundreds of threads started by disgruntled customers. Thanks but no thanks.


----------



## MetalHead40

Ladies and gentlemen, I had no idea there would be so many customers with similar experiences. Its hard to believe that something within their business model has not been rectified considering my issue has proved to be far from being labeled as "one of a few" that can happen on occasion. 

As rifftrauma mentioned above here, I agree that part of their issue seems to be connected to the fact that they as a company seem too heavily focused on continually developing new products. 

I get that to be leading edge and competitive in this or most any market you have to invest in R&D, but at the cost of a high quality product and great customer service?

I said it already, but I have worked in customer service my whole life in numerous fields across numerous states and have dealt with some of the most demanding customers on the planet. 

I was the sole T2/T4 support technician for some of the most prominent ski resort companies in central CO. I supported condominium and hotel internet and TV services for places like Aspen, Beaver Creek, Vail, Breckenridge. These places cater to some of the richest and most demanding customers you could imagine, and if the internet is not working for these customers believe me when I tell you its BIG BIG deal and they are out for blood!

Did I want to tell certain customers how I really felt, you bet I did countless times and with countless customers. Did I ever in the 7 years I was in that position, only once and that was at the tail end of my career. 

I had a woman that was cursing me up and down and being obnoxious, frantic, and down right rude. I lost my cool, and then I immediately apologized and told her that I would do whatever it took to make her happy; and I did, and she thanked me and apologized for her attitude. I put my two weeks in after that because I knew I had reached a point where I was no longer able to offer the level of customer service necessary in that position.

Sounds like Mike maybe had a day like the one I had 4 years ago. Difference is, he didn't apologize and sounds like his attitude with me is far from being a one time event.


----------



## Exit Existence

That's a bummer. 
I've got my 2nd Kiesel / Carvin on order and stuff like this worries me, especially since I got one of those 'return-voiding' option-50's

Sounds like you got a fluke, but being a fluke and not an unwarranted complaint they should have definitely dealt with that differently.

I often wonder if they are getting overloaded, their business has really exploded in the past 5 years. I'm sure switching factories and breaking off from Carvin Audio has been an adjustment too.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

I assume someone at Kiesel works as a Social Media expert. It's time to chime in. This is getting heat on several forums and needs some kind of formal response. I know it's only one side of the story, but it does seem legit and damning.


----------



## JYNX2

The action doesn't look right at all.. the strings look too high.. if you have to keep the guitar, bring it to a tech near by and have him set it up and look at it. 

A lot of playabilty issues happen because straight off the cnc you get a S curve and its either high or low in certain spots - this has to be worked out. Cheap instruments are infamous for this. Sounds like Jeff Kiesel is taking on too much and the quality dropped. I personally don't care for the guy because he bashes independent luthier guitar makers and he believes everything he makes is so much superior. 

I hope Jeff sees this thread and fixes this problem for you and makes it right. Also if this was my company Mike would be fired. In school I was taught customer service is 70% of your companys success.


----------



## -JeKo-

rifftrauma said:


> I feel like this is another issue of expanding too fast in to many area's of production and not taking the proper time to make sure you've got the logistics in place to properly meet demand.
> 
> I've deleted most Kiesel things off my social media feed because it constantly seemed like they we're pushing something new. A new model every 3-4 months, new limited runs, new colors and options, blah blah blah. I felt like it was this cacophony of "SHINY NEW THING" constantly.
> 
> All of this is great, except... the issues with Buckeye burl tops cracking and having to be filled, luminlays with no black rings on maple fretboards, the vader zero fret issue and issues like OPs.
> 
> Jeff was always commenting on his people working overtime to meet the demands. Why not take care of what you've got instead of pushing a new run and doing a half-assed job, or releasing a new model that doesn't have all the kinks worked out? Or if these really are isolated incidents, why not properly train your customer service to handle the one or two issues here and there instead of turning it into a cluster .... for a paying customer?
> 
> I've had my own personal issues with the company and won't be buying another guitar from them in the future. Money talks.



Agree 100%. New models almost on a monthly basis. 

Every time I watch their Facebook live videos from their shop, I just don't get that "boutique feeling" that you get from builders such as Anderson and Suhr, for example. Jeff keeps saying that he feels that their quality compares to those top boutique brands but I have to disagree. Having owned a dozen of Suhrs and a couple of Andersons, I can tell that Kiesels don't reach that level. But that's another discussion altogether.

Also, they really should focus more on the customer service side of things. That's what keeps many companies afloat!


----------



## MetalHead40

JYNX2 said:


> The action doesn't look right at all.. the strings look too high.. if you have to keep the guitar, bring it to a tech near by and have him set it up and look at it.
> 
> A lot of playabilty issues happen because straight off the cnc you get a S curve and its either high or low in certain spots - this has to be worked out. Cheap instruments are infamous for this. Sounds like Jeff Kiesel is taking on too much and the quality dropped. I personally don't care for the guy because he bashes independent luthier guitar makers and he believes everything he makes is so much superior.
> 
> I hope Jeff sees this thread and fixes this problem for you and makes it right. Also if this was my company Mike would be fired. In school I was taught customer service is 70% of your companys success.



Thanks for the input!

And actually I returned the guitar and was refunded.


----------



## JYNX2

MetalHead40 said:


> Thanks for the input!
> 
> And actually I returned the guitar and was refunded.



Glad you got that sorted out. Any idea what guitar you're going to try next?


----------



## MetalHead40

JYNX2 said:


> Glad you got that sorted out. Any idea what guitar you're going to try next?



2017 Ibanez RG Premium w/ fixed bridge .


----------



## A-Branger

MetalHead40 said:


> Sounds like Mike maybe had a day like the one I had 4 years ago. Difference is, he didn't apologize and sounds like his attitude with me is far from being a one time event.



although yes, I agree 100% with you. THe main issue is that the guitar came un-playable. Mike could be having the worst day ever and be an as$%^hole. But hes not in charge of the guitar settup. He shouldnt have anything to do with it. So why the guitar came settup soo wrong? And even worse when the send it back to be fixed, which they didnt

Like I mention before, this is not only a "one guy's bad day", this is several people involved


----------



## Jeff

Exit Existence said:


> That's a bummer.
> I've got my 2nd Kiesel / Carvin on order and stuff like this worries me, especially since I got one of those 'return-voiding' option-50's
> 
> Sounds like you got a fluke, but being a fluke and not an unwarranted complaint they should have definitely dealt with that differently.
> 
> I often wonder if they are getting overloaded, their business has really exploded in the past 5 years. I'm sure switching factories and breaking off from Carvin Audio has been an adjustment too.



Lots of flukes lately.


----------



## Blynd

Hmm, that's a shame. A sales person should NEVER say what he said to you hands down. I'd just about fly down there and do a man to man lol. I can't say I had the same experience. I've had exactly the opposite experience and everyone I talked to (including Jeff) was very nice. I think it goes to say that with any company you can run into issues. I have heard similar issues with many custom builds including Skervesen (which I own a 7 string from them but no issues) with their 1 year turnaround. I know Kiesel has a much quicker turnaround time which is huge but hopefully that isn't at the cost of quality.

I don't think it should deter people cause I will say my Aries 6 is off the hook and plays/sounds amazing. However, I don't blame you personally for never doing business with any company where you get treated like that.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Jeff said:


> Lots of flukes lately.



I wouldn't say there were a "lot." I can only recall a handful of threads, and even in a few of those instances it wasn't so much build quality, but violent defending of opinion. (I'm looking at you, color match that had no business being called a match.)

It really is a matter of their customer support boning people. A lot of these things wouldn't be too big of a deal if they just handled the situation with tact. 

This particular guitar is an exception though. Some guitars had weird finish marks or parts that over time caused problems. That's all just .... that can happen during shipping/climate changes during shipping (paint finish issues) or unforeseen nonsense. (vader saddles.) This was a case of someone sleeping on the job... Worse, even, they were awake, they just didn't care. This guitar is an embarrassment in and of itself. The fact that you were belittled is insane.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jeff said:


> Lots of flukes lately.



Not really. But the flukes that do happen have been all the way bad. 

I like their guitars. I just hope I never have to deal with their customer service dept


----------



## cubix

With all those top of the line HAAS cnc machines they got in the factory you really have to not give a damn to mess things up... It's still up to the human to put the material into the machine STRAIGHT and double check the alignment.


----------



## b7string

Note to self, if I ever order a custom from a company that visits NAMM... I will try to time it lol.

In the construction industry when we get a deluge of work all at once, or we have a showcase project requiring all hands on deck, some things inevitably slip through the cracks, as skilled temporary workers in a niche market don't grow on trees. Unfortunately, this seems no different with instrument manufacturers.

Glad you got your money back at least.


----------



## xzacx

-JeKo- said:


> Every time I watch their Facebook live videos from their shop, I just don't get that "boutique feeling" that you get from builders such as Anderson and Suhr, for example. Jeff keeps saying that he feels that their quality compares to those top boutique brands but I have to disagree.



How many times have you seen Tom Anderson or John Suhr try to put themselves over the guitars and become the story? When's the last time you saw them on social media talking about how much better their guitars are than everyone else's, or how people are ripping their ideas off? I don't think any of these things are a coincidence.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

cubix said:


> With all those top of the line HAAS cnc machines they got in the factory you really have to not give a damn to mess things up... It's still up to the human to put the material into the machine STRAIGHT and double check the alignment.



Even the best CNC machines don't spit out completely finished guitars. 

The use of CNC is a time saver more than anything else. 

A human still needs to cut, sand, route and assemble.


----------



## oneblackened

MaxOfMetal said:


> Even the best CNC machines don't spit out completely finished guitars.
> 
> The use of CNC is a time saver more than anything else.
> 
> A human still needs to *cut*, sand, *route* and assemble.


That's the whole point of the CNC - it does all of this. 


OP: yeah, that's A.) unacceptable and B.)the neck pocket is fuuuuuucked.


----------



## C-PIG

i had a friend who also had major issues with his kiesel , terrible customer service too. I never liked their designs and after playing my friends guitar and hearing what he went through i would never get one.


----------



## pahulkster

No guitar should ship like that.....ever. I would be pissed if a $100 used guitar at Guitar Center was set like that. Even that would probably never happen. Think about that. The crappiest guitar in any shop won't look like that. Adding in the trash service is just beyond belief. Brand killer for me.


----------



## absolutorigin

Damn, that looks awful. Some real shady business practices from Kiesel lately.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

oneblackened said:


> That's the whole point of the CNC - it does all of this.
> 
> 
> OP: yeah, that's A.) unacceptable and B.)the neck pocket is fuuuuuucked.



You don't put a tree in the machine. A person still needs to cut, plane and glue up the blanks. Depending on the process, some basic routing is sometimes needed to clean up pickup routes, control cavities, etc. especially if there's any chip out or defects in the wood.

The point of CNC is to reduce time and increase precision. That's it.


----------



## highandmighty93

Wow I was really looking forward to saving up to get a Vader trem... :/ I'm sorry to hear about what happened. This is definitely something to consider


----------



## mnemonic

crankyrayhanky said:


> I assume someone at Kiesel works as a Social Media expert. It's time to chime in. This is getting heat on several forums and needs some kind of formal response. I know it's only one side of the story, but it does seem legit and damning.



Not much chance of that I don't think. IIRC the carvin/kiesel account here got banned for some... Less than professional conduct.


----------



## raadoo

Blynd said:


> Hmm, that's a shame. A sales person should NEVER say what he said to you hands down. I'd just about fly down there and do a man to man lol. I can't say I had the same experience. I've had exactly the opposite experience and everyone I talked to (including Jeff) was very nice. I think it goes to say that with any company you can run into issues. I have heard similar issues with many custom builds including Skervesen (which I own a 7 string from them but no issues) with their 1 year turnaround. I know Kiesel has a much quicker turnaround time which is huge but hopefully that isn't at the cost of quality.
> 
> I don't think it should deter people cause I will say my Aries 6 is off the hook and plays/sounds amazing. However, I don't blame you personally for never doing business with any company where you get treated like that.



Same for me. My Aries 6 is a killer axe and even though I had some action problems when it first arrived, Jeff and Albert were extremely accommodating, which was unexpected. My action issues were more about the Aries having traveled about 5000 miles and my never having worked with a Hipshot before then.
I've got a friend who, shortly after having played my Aries, ordered a VB4 and he loves it. Played his VB4 myself and can honestly say that it feels better than my Aries.

Kiesel do *a lot* of guitars, with numbers going up every year. So yeah, it doesn't feel like the same boutique shop that it used to be even 4 years ago. And it does mean lemons will squeeze (sic!) out the door every now and again. But that can, very quickly, be turned around in less than a year by puttin the R&D on hold and focusing on hiring more staff and providing such customer support that threads like this can all but disappear. *If *and only if Jeff can see these issues as being far more important to the future of Kiesel, will anything change for the better. As it stands, Jeff portrays the image of a builder who is resting on his laurels. Not saying that's what the man thinks - I, nor anyone for that matter can know what's going on inside his head. 

Seems like Mike hasn't been having the best of days lately, as this isn't the first thread about him specifically that I've seen this year (there're a couple of threads on the Kiesel BBS about him and his attitude).
Like so many others have said, customer support is so much more important than fancy woods and a million options. One can only hope Jeff will come to realise this sooner rather than later.

For anyone thinking about ordering from Kiesel, you can always use the builder and not actually have to go through a salesperson, or call and ask for Chris. For what it's worth, every thread I've read that mentioned Chris has been nothing but glowing reviews about his attitude and care.

I've always seen Kiesel as a stepping stone, myself. Last year I've felt ready to get a custom and wanted to try it out without the usual long waiting time or the fear of a builder disappearing. Which is why I chose Kiesel and I would do it again every time.
Now that I've gone down that path, I've learned a huge amount about what it is I like, what feels right to me and I'm knowledgeable enough about my own preferences to be able to go to another builder for another custom.

Not to steal from the focus of this thread, for anyone wondering, I'm leaning towards STK as my next custom.


----------



## laxu

raadoo said:


> For anyone thinking about ordering from Kiesel, you can always use the builder and not actually have to go through a salesperson, or call and ask for Chris. For what it's worth, every thread I've read that mentioned Chris has been nothing but glowing reviews about his attitude and care.



He was my salesperson when I ordered my AM7 and was great to work with.

Real shame what happened with OP. Kiesel IMO do a lot of things right. I like many of their models and they have very nice woods on their guitars and when they get things right the guitars are really well made. Sure, they might not be quite as good as <insert boutique manufacturer> but the price difference is usually quite significant too and the quality difference is not enough for me to care. I can't really fault the two Carvin/Kiesels I have other than what amount to very minor cosmetic issues, some of which should be already fixed with Kiesel's current production process. If only they got their QA up a notch to catch the occasional small issue and in this case what is a major issue.


----------



## canuck brian

MetalHead40 said:


> ^^^
> Thanks, me too!
> 
> Not sure if this shows what your talking about. Its the only pic I have that shows the neck in reference to the pocket.



Your neck has a tilt that completely prevents any decent action height. It looks like a solid 2-3 mm in height difference between the back of the pocket and the front. Either the neck wasn't CNC'd right or the neck pocket wasn't. If it's the neck pocket, that's fixable, but thats something Kiesel should have done.

If that's how it showed up and thats how the neck sits in the pocket, someone needs to be fired and you need to be refunded. That guitar should have met its doom quite some time before someone put any hardware on it.


----------



## soliloquy

funny enough, like a few other members posted here, i too am getting tired of kiesel constantly spamming my social media with 'new and improved shiny stuff' they keep posting around the clock. 

i get it, different strokes for different folks. the new stuff isn't really to my liking.

i bought a CS6m a few years ago. loved it, but sold it. then got a CT424 that i still have and really enjoy playing it. beyond that, their other designs dont really do much for me, and their prices are also creeping up to the point where i am looking elsewhere for future guitars. as such, i think i'm done with carvin/kiesel for the foreseeable future. used market doesn't do much for me as i'm very specific with what features i want. the only thing i ever see myself going for now from their series is the SH550/SH575. and even then, its pretty costly, and find a used in the exact specs i want is a bit difficult to do...so i'll just pass on it. 

mike jones is/was a regular on the carvinbbs forum when i was still active there a few years ago and seemed like a decent dude. dont know what triggered him, but that is still no excuse to treat ANYONE like that. i get it, i dont like my job. i talk to customers all day. some are nice, but majority are ass hats and they only reason they call is to complain. am i the nicest to them? not particularly. but i'm not yelling at them either. i talk to them with respect and move on, but i dont go way out of my way to help em. thats my flaw, and i need to find a new job where i dont feel so complacent. perhaps thats the issue mr jones is having here as well...has been in that role for a while too now. 

as for the guitar itself, as others mentioned, i too am surprised as to how a CNC guitar messed up on that. i get if it was hand made, thus differences could occur. but CNC is supposed to be very precise with tight quality control. perhaps jeff is pushing his staff a bit too hard to release new stuff, they all are over worked and losing it a bit.


----------



## MetalHead40

canuck brian said:


> Your neck has a tilt that completely prevent any decent action height. It looks like a solid 2-3 mm in height difference between the back of the pocket and the front. Either the neck wasn't CNC'd right or the neck pocket wasn't. If it's the neck pocket, that's fixable, but thats something Kiesel should have done.
> 
> If that's how it showed up and thats how the neck sits in the pocket, someone needs to be fired and you need to be refunded. That guitar should have met its doom quite some time before someone put any hardware on it.



Yeah, I don't get why they couldn't just own up to this guitar being not right and just make it right. To say "well we adjusted the truss rod and it seems fine to us" is messed up.

I was refunded.


----------



## MetalHead40

soliloquy said:


> funny enough, like a few other members posted here, i too am getting tired of kiesel constantly spamming my social media with 'new and improved shiny stuff' they keep posting around the clock.
> 
> i get it, different strokes for different folks. the new stuff isn't really to my liking.
> 
> i bought a CS6m a few years ago. loved it, but sold it. then got a CT424 that i still have and really enjoy playing it. beyond that, their other designs dont really do much for me, and their prices are also creeping up to the point where i am looking elsewhere for future guitars. as such, i think i'm done with carvin/kiesel for the foreseeable future. used market doesn't do much for me as i'm very specific with what features i want. the only thing i ever see myself going for now from their series is the SH550/SH575. and even then, its pretty costly, and find a used in the exact specs i want is a bit difficult to do...so i'll just pass on it.
> 
> mike jones is/was a regular on the carvinbbs forum when i was still active there a few years ago and seemed like a decent dude. dont know what triggered him, but that is still no excuse to treat ANYONE like that. i get it, i dont like my job. i talk to customers all day. some are nice, but majority are ass hats and they only reason they call is to complain. am i the nicest to them? not particularly. but i'm not yelling at them either. i talk to them with respect and move on, but i dont go way out of my way to help em. thats my flaw, and i need to find a new job where i dont feel so complacent. perhaps thats the issue mr jones is having here as well...has been in that role for a while too now.
> 
> as for the guitar itself, as others mentioned, i too am surprised as to how a CNC guitar messed up on that. i get if it was hand made, thus differences could occur. but CNC is supposed to be very precise with tight quality control. perhaps jeff is pushing his staff a bit too hard to release new stuff, they all are over worked and losing it a bit.




I agree 100% here.


----------



## possumkiller

I just really hate how other brands are starting to think that putting 1/4 of a figured top on the guitar and 3/4 in the trash is a good thing.


----------



## hairychris

Wow.

I can see what happened with this. Neck joint & pocket looks kinda routed for a TOM but a Hipshot was fitted. TOMs sit a lot higher than hardtail strat-style bridges, although most builders also angle the neck back to compensate. Still, this means that the Hipshot needs to be cranked to get the strings to align, and the intonation will suck.

Someone bollocksed up programming the order on CNC good & proper on the factory side. Routing out the neck pocket should fix the issue but it really shouldn't have been shipped. QC failed as well.

The customer service is terrible in this case. This is absolutely a production issue, nothing to do with end user.

Pretty much a perfect storm of fail (although tbh the 23 fret Jackson Custom Shop still takes the ultimate prize, this is close!).



Happy that OP got refunded.


----------



## hairychris

soliloquy said:


> as for the guitar itself, as others mentioned, i too am surprised as to how a CNC guitar messed up on that. i get if it was hand made, thus differences could occur. but CNC is supposed to be very precise with tight quality control. perhaps jeff is pushing his staff a bit too hard to release new stuff, they all are over worked and losing it a bit.



The CNC-work itself is fine. Pocket looks tight.

The problem is that the wrong program was punched in. Don't blame the CNC machine, blame the person who programmed it and then the entire process for not picking up on the error (which is even worse as honest mistakes do happen!). Customer service is the icing on the cake.

If error was caught before shipping then I think that they could have fixed it, no harm/no foul. If the customer service hadn't failed then same could have happened.

EDIT: I'm an IT professional. Computers do exactly what you tell them to do, with a high degree of accuracy. There's an old computer programmer saying: GIGO... Garbage in, garbage out.


----------



## marcwormjim

It's a shame so many people are offended by the direction Jeff decided to run with in the "hashtag: douchebag" social media-marketing. Whether you find him charming or not, the guy's putting himself out there and generally seems sincere and excited for his company and designs , even if it is just sincere delusion.

It strikes me as boiling down to people expecting Carvin from Kiesel. Carvin Guitars is gone, gone, gone; and people need to separate the two: Kiesel is very much a new company, in a new factory; and these very unfortunate incidents all seem to be growing pains. 

And my expectations are set accordingly: I may well order a Kiesel this year, and I'm not going to be surprised when the case includes a Kiesel condom with Jeff's head on the end of it. But guys nostalgic for Carvin are going to put it on and watch it stare up at them in the bubble bath with a sense that something's gone wrong in their world.

So, once again: Kiesel isn't Carvin. That means "Only order guitars you're willing to return", and no option-50s or in-stock NAMM models that are marked "non-returnable" for no discernible reason at all. Caveat emptor, and all that.


----------



## TedEH

The whole deal seems kinda fishy to me. I saw the NGD thread for this one, and I don't think the neck was at that weird angle, so my understanding is that this was sent back for relatively minor maintenance and came back looking like a joke? I mean, no guitar player (or manufacturer) involved with instruments at this price level would set up a guitar that way and call it acceptable. When I see the picture of the bridge set up really high the way it was, my gut reaction is that someone is trolling someone. Either OP is trolling us, or trolling Kiesel, or someone at Kiesel is taking their issues out on OP or something, but either way, it's such a weird scenario. 

I can't say that this sways my opinion of Kiesel though. They're a company experiencing some growing pains, but most threads I see about them seem to take one extreme or the other. Either they're the worst- never again! - or they're the best thing since sliced bread. I'm cautious a bit, but I would still like to give this company a shot at some point.


----------



## canuck brian

TedEH said:


> The whole deal seems kinda fishy to me. I saw the NGD thread for this one, and I don't think the neck was at that weird angle, so my understanding is that this was sent back for relatively minor maintenance and came back looking like a joke? I mean, no guitar player (or manufacturer) involved with instruments at this price level would set up a guitar that way and call it acceptable. When I see the picture of the bridge set up really high the way it was, my gut reaction is that someone is trolling someone. Either OP is trolling us, or trolling Kiesel, or someone at Kiesel is taking their issues out on OP or something, but either way, it's such a weird scenario.
> 
> I can't say that this sways my opinion of Kiesel though. They're a company experiencing some growing pains, but most threads I see about them seem to take one extreme or the other. Either they're the worst- never again! - or they're the best thing since sliced bread. I'm cautious a bit, but I would still like to give this company a shot at some point.



He got his cash refunded. If he was trolling them, they'd just tell him to pound sand.


----------



## xzacx

hairychris said:


> Wow.
> 
> I can see what happened with this. Neck joint & pocket looks kinda routed for a TOM but a Hipshot was fitted. TOMs sit a lot higher than hardtail strat-style bridges, although most builders also angle the neck back to compensate.



Could just be the perspective of the photo, but it looks the exact opposite to me - this neck looks like it's angled forward rather than back, how it would be for a TOM.



TedEH said:


> The whole deal seems kinda fishy to me. I saw the NGD thread for this one, and I don't think the neck was at that weird angle, so my understanding is that this was sent back for relatively minor maintenance and came back looking like a joke?



OP mentioned in the NGD that it had a horrible setup and you can see in his original photos that the saddles are jacked up so high that the screw are recessed.


----------



## Jonathan20022

JFC, I'd straight up tell Mike to .... off if he told me my guitar was being torn apart for their showcase. Order enough parts to cover the job and don't waste your customer's time.

Oracles mentioned the dude with the K Series and that was me, Chris Hong was a class act and was helping me the entire way. If anyone ever has anything to order or deal with I HIGHLY recommend just giving him the call instead of another sales guy. He's always been the above and beyond guy there to me, ordered all 6 of my previous orders through him and the one that went wrong was when I involved Jeff in the picture. Lots of misinformation and inconsistent stories, but long story short.

I see my guitar for the first time, and it's missing the burst finish I ordered and the specs on my custom 7 pc neck were wrong. I brought up the finish, and Jeff offered to strip and refinish it for $200 instead of their usual $600. I just tell him no and that the spec sheet says black burst, that's what I'm getting and I'm not pouring another cent into it. He agreed, and did the refinish for free. The confusion came from him suggesting a tint to darken the redwood and he did the tint instead of doing both the tint and the burst. Luckily all of our convos were in text, so it was very easy to go back and reference anytime we talked.

I get my K Series for the first time, and there is a scratch on every fret in the same position which catches the G string. Already pretty upset about specs being wrong and this, I send it back and have Albert look at it. He asks me what gauge strings I like and tuning, I tell him 10-46 in Drop C since it was a multiscale. It comes back with the strings I provided and in the wrong tuning to top it off. But at least the frets are fine.

But nope, the body has several dings and scratches all over as if whoever handled it (Don't know how many people took care of it, so I can't place the blame on Albert if it was someone else). But I refused to accept the guitar at that point, and this was during Christmas time - early January. So I had to wait a week or so to even hear back, I ask for a resolution and it takes a few tries before I'm even suggested a refinish or rebuild from Jeff. Chris was the middleman here and spoke to Jeff for me for the first few messages.

So a combination of everything, and me having to push for even a basic resolution annoyed me to the point of just wanting my money back for the guitar. Of course Jeff doesn't take too well to this, and starts telling me I gave him artistic freedom on this guitar which isn't true as per our entire conversations happening via FB Messenger. And the fact that I spec'd the entire thing with Chris Hong sans picking out a top with Jeff personally. Then after some back and forth he pulls the K Series is non refundable line on me, and I just tell him I'm sorry it had to even get to this point but I'm going to call my credit card and have them put a chargeback on the order. The guitar had specs changed at several points, came damaged twice, and I had to push for a proper resolution to even get to a satisfactory point.

Jeff cuts me off, and makes a snide remark about my finances which pisses me off but I don't say anything. But he tells me to send it back and I'll get a refund. Catch is I have to pay shipping I find out when I tell Chris Jeff accepted to refund me the guitar, but whatever $30 to ship it back but at least I get my funds back.

Get the refund and it's the refund minus the deposit  so I call in and just tell them to either refund me the entire amount or I'll go through with the chargeback. And I get the money back into my account finally after all of this back and forth and it's over. 

Chris Hong is the best person over there, and if I were anyone at Kiesel I'd have him handle literally everything relating to PR and general customer information and inquiries. They'd be doing far better than they are, and they'd retain customers like me with respectful interactions and prompt and proper solutions to any issues that come up.

They're good instruments and I still have two that I really love and play regularly, but for them to treat someone who has ordered 6 guitars from them this way made me lose respect and any desire to support them.


----------



## TedEH

xzacx said:


> OP mentioned in the NGD that it had a horrible setup and you can see in his original photos that the saddles are jacked up so high that the screw are recessed.



What I mean is that the saddles don't look like that in the NGD thread, so I guessed the ridiculous height thing was done as the "fix" for the original bad setup.

If he got a refund, then that's good then. Problem over, I suppose. I guess my point was that a setup that bad looks (to me) like it was done on purpose. Everyone involved should know better.


----------



## dmlinger

Jonathan20022 said:


> Jeff cuts me off, and makes a snide remark about my finances



The whole story (quality, customer service, etc) is bad enough, but the section above is the reason I'll never order a Kiesel. Jeff's ego and attitude don't jive with me. 

I haven't read around the other forums that this is posted on, but I'd imagine there is at least a small amount of reputation lost (some fans just don't care). Jeff seems committed to growing their business through their online/forum/social media presence, but that strategy cuts both ways...


----------



## Seventhwave

dmlinger said:


> Jeff's ego and attitude.


----------



## Jeff

Señor Voorhees;4715502 said:


> I wouldn't say there were a "lot." I can only recall a handful of threads, and even in a few of those instances it wasn't so much build quality, but violent defending of opinion. (I'm looking at you, color match that had no business being called a match.)
> 
> It really is a matter of their customer support boning people. A lot of these things wouldn't be too big of a deal if they just handled the situation with tact.
> 
> This particular guitar is an exception though. Some guitars had weird finish marks or parts that over time caused problems. That's all just .... that can happen during shipping/climate changes during shipping (paint finish issues) or unforeseen nonsense. (vader saddles.) This was a case of someone sleeping on the job... Worse, even, they were awake, they just didn't care. This guitar is an embarrassment in and of itself. The fact that you were belittled is insane.





diagrammatiks said:


> Not really. But the flukes that do happen have been all the way bad.
> 
> I like their guitars. I just hope I never have to deal with their customer service dept



Certainly far more flukes than I see with any other major brand. Granted, that's anecdotal. I've also had several Carvins, all sent back, all with either significant cosmetic issues, or sounded like dead planks.


----------



## btbg

TedEH said:


> What I mean is that the saddles don't look like that in the NGD thread, so I guessed the ridiculous height thing was done as the "fix" for the original bad setup.
> 
> If he got a refund, then that's good then. Problem over, I suppose. I guess my point was that a setup that bad looks (to me) like it was done on purpose. Everyone involved should know better.


 
The saddles don't look like that in the NGD thread because *gasp* there's no side view of the saddles in the NGD thread.

Even in the top-down pictures the saddles look somewhat wonky. Anybody can see that.


----------



## bostjan

Jeff said:


> Certainly far more flukes than I see with any other major brand. Granted, that's anecdotal. I've also had several Carvins, all sent back, all with either significant cosmetic issues, or sounded like dead planks.



As I said before, what sets this experience apart is the terrible customer service in response. I'll give anyone a second chance if they admit that they messed up. If a company isn't even willing to admit that there's a problem, when there is a problem as glaring as this, it's inexcusable. Period.


----------



## Jeff

bostjan said:


> As I said before, what sets this experience apart is the terrible customer service in response. I'll give anyone a second chance if they admit that they messed up. If a company isn't even willing to admit that there's a problem, when there is a problem as glaring as this, it's inexcusable. Period.



Eh, what sets it apart is both. That guitar going out like that is absolutely inexcusable. I've not seen PRS SE's show up like that, in dozens of guitars over the course of a couple years. And those aren't as expensive as a Kiesel. There's just no excuse for it. The customer service just takes it to a completely different level.


----------



## aprilia4life

Companies show their true colours when there is something wrong with their product, and how they resolve the issue. Everyone has good experiences when there's nothing wrong with the product, but when something breaks... Kiesel showed they are shïthouse in this scenario, which is where it counts. Fail.


----------



## Jonathan20022

dmlinger said:


> The whole story (quality, customer service, etc) is bad enough, but the section above is the reason I'll never order a Kiesel. Jeff's ego and attitude don't jive with me.
> 
> I haven't read around the other forums that this is posted on, but I'd imagine there is at least a small amount of reputation lost (some fans just don't care). Jeff seems committed to growing their business through their online/forum/social media presence, but that strategy cuts both ways...



Yep, I think it's the difference between someone with more experience managing a business and someone new to it. You never take something personal, and the second you do you're immediately in the wrong. He has no place insulting customers and doing anything beyond helping them.

Some restraint on his part would do him a lot of good especially when it came to the whole BKP thing.


----------



## budda

marcwormjim said:


> It strikes me as boiling down to people expecting Carvin from Kiesel. Carvin Guitars is gone, gone, gone; and people need to separate the two: Kiesel is very much a new company, in a new factory; and these very unfortunate incidents all seem to be growing pains.



You mean to tell me that even though the two companies started out side by side in *the same damn factory* that Kiesel decided to sell all those tools and resources and start completely fresh as a new company?

And I'm supposed to believe that? 

TL/DR don't give them business when there's *so* many other companies not screwing things up like this.

I'm in the "how did that get past QC" camp.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

budda said:


> You mean to tell me that even though the two companies started out side by side in *the same damn factory* that Kiesel decided to sell all those tools and resources and start completely fresh as a new company?
> 
> And I'm supposed to believe that?
> 
> TL/DR don't give them business when there's *so* many other companies not screwing things up like this.
> 
> I'm in the "how did that get past QC" camp.



Not to take away from your post, but when they split they clearly wanted to go a different direction. The change over to Kiesel sort of came with a new attitude. Apparently an attitude that says saddles need to be maxed. lol

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but carvin does seem to be a completely different brand altogether. Though, maybe "growing pains" is the wrong word to use, as they essentially already did exist. They were aware of how the biz works.


----------



## MetalHead40

TedEH said:


> The whole deal seems kinda fishy to me. I saw the NGD thread for this one, and I don't think the neck was at that weird angle, so my understanding is that this was sent back for relatively minor maintenance and came back looking like a joke? I mean, no guitar player (or manufacturer) involved with instruments at this price level would set up a guitar that way and call it acceptable. When I see the picture of the bridge set up really high the way it was, my gut reaction is that someone is trolling someone. Either OP is trolling us, or trolling Kiesel, or someone at Kiesel is taking their issues out on OP or something, but either way, it's such a weird scenario.
> 
> I can't say that this sways my opinion of Kiesel though. They're a company experiencing some growing pains, but most threads I see about them seem to take one extreme or the other. Either they're the worst- never again! - or they're the best thing since sliced bread. I'm cautious a bit, but I would still like to give this company a shot at some point.



I did not have a picture in my NGD thread that showed the neck angle. The one I posted here in this thread was not posted in the NGD thread along with many other pictures I took of the guitar.

You can tell the saddles heights were jacked by looking at the 3rd picture down in my NGD thread. Its clear from that picture that the heads of the saddle height adjustment screws are buried towards the bottom of the saddle threads.

*The guitar did not go back for "relatively minor maintenance". *

Actually here is the copied and pasted letter I sent with the guitar when I sent it back at Albert's request to have it looked at:

"Hi Albert,

As per our phone conversations on 1/25 and 1/26, I am returning my Aries 6 for evaluation. After replacing the 6th string three times with various brand .054 gauge strings, inspecting the saddle for burs, making repeated adjustments of the bridge saddles and checking neck relief, I am still not getting the action and tone where it needs to be for me in Drop C tuning and with my preferred string gauge. 

There are four issues I&#8217;m having: 

1) The 6th string (.054 gauge) is getting some fret buzz and produces a somewhat undesirable tone for that string. It is coming through both of my amplifiers to the point where it&#8217;s audible. It&#8217;s buzzing just enough as to cause a somewhat harsh tone on that string. 

2) The 6th and 5th strings saddles are set to their highest maximum height allowing no further increase in string gauge should I want to jump to a .056-.013. 

3) The saddle heights of all saddles can&#8217;t be set to reflect the fretboard radius properly given the current maxed out position on the 6th and 5th strings. 

4) The intonation screws for the 6th and 5th strings can&#8217;t be adjusted easily because of the extreme angle of the saddles for those two strings. You have to lower the saddle to intonate which really shouldn&#8217;t need to occur.


I&#8217;m wondering if replacing the .125&#8221; Hipshot bridge with the .175&#8221; version might correct the above issues? I&#8217;m thinking the thicker baseplate would allow for a lower more neutral saddle height, allow for proper action with this string gauge set (or larger), allow for intonation without having to lower the saddles, and also would allow the saddle heights to be set to reflect the fretboard radius. 

I&#8217;d love to give the guitar another go with a bridge swap and see if this works better with the heavier strings and lower tuning. If that&#8217;s not a possibility then I would regrettably have to ask to return the guitar for a refund.

I spoke with Ricardo on 1/26 and asked that I be contacted after you guys look at. He said he had put a notation in my record to assure that someone would contact me to discuss your findings and course of action after it was looked at and before sending it back to me. 

On a side note, should we get my bridge concerns/issues worked out where the guitar comes back to me, could you guys please swap the selector switch knob for a black one. Someone there made the decision for white, which is cool, but I was expecting black to match hardware. 

And could someone just put a touch of wood filler on fret 13 (underside) there&#8217;s a small void at the bottom of the fret edge. Sorry to knit pick guys, but I warned the salesman I worked with prior to ordering that I wouldn&#8217;t settle for anything less than what was 100% perfect in my eyes. He did say it wouldn&#8217;t be an issue."

Like I said, they ignored calling me at all and shipped the guitar back to me which was stated very clearly several times in my letter above. When I called to check on it, the production manager said "oh its done and FedEx is on their way to pick it up here". 

When I asked him to stop shipment he said he couldn't. I asked what they did to address all of the above issues, he said they adjusted the truss rod.

No trolling man, just giving the ....tty facts of my experience.


----------



## marcwormjim

budda said:


> And I'm supposed to believe that?



No. you have access the the same internet I do. I said nothing about them selling all their tools in that post of mine you quoted; so no need to be a meatball and put those words in my mouth. It is, however, common knowledge that they (somewhat) recently moved out of the old factory space and into a new one. You'll find my post in-line with that fact. I'm not sure what offense you're accusing me of - I'm warning people that Kiesel isn't just Carvin with a name change, but a different animal to approach with caution.


----------



## JYNX2

I thought Kiesel was essentially the same company as Carvin since its family owned? The same guys are operating the company right? Never the less I hope he changes his attitude and gets some respect for people.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'm confused as to how a 71-year-old company is experiencing growing pains. 

And growing pains can explain the QC. Doesn't explain the ....ty attitude the CS and Jeff have.


----------



## budda

Chokey Chicken said:


> Not to take away from your post, but when they split they clearly wanted to go a different direction. The change over to Kiesel sort of came with a new attitude. Apparently an attitude that says saddles need to be maxed. lol
> 
> Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but carvin does seem to be a completely different brand altogether. Though, maybe "growing pains" is the wrong word to use, as they essentially already did exist. They were aware of how the biz works.



I think there's some confusion.

I'm not talking about the brand Carvin becoming defunct - we all know that.

I'm saying that since the two were built in the same place, it's pretty freaking unlikely that Jeff and Co would decide to sell all of Carvin's resources (woods, tools, hardware, staff, CNC machines, inventory management systems) just to re-buy literally everything. That would be asinine. But then, I don't know the guy. And he lets crap like this happen, so maybe he actually would re-buy his entire shop.

EDIT: changing locations does not magically cause computer software to be erased  - moving to a new apartment doesn't mean you have to re-install your OS and software, just like how a manufacturer moving locations doesn't have to reprogram their CNC machines. There's no excuse for how this guitar came out. I'm glad buddy got his refund, and I'm bummed that people will continue to give this company money when this happens time and time again (bad guitars go out).


----------



## SpaceDock

I used to love carvin in the 90s, kiesel and all this makes me stay away. I like that you can get an affordable custom, but they always look a bit off to me and these stories have been going on for years now. Return business and word of mouth is what makes or breaks brands. I hope kiesel learns this soon.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Kiesel is to Carvin what Gibson Memphis is to Gibson Kalamazoo. A similar comparison would be pre-Fender Jackson vs. post. 

Different management [Jeff] overseeing different employees [lots of turnover in the last couple years] operating different equipment [newer machines to replace older] to make different guitars [Carvin used to come out with a new model every few years, now its a few every year] at a different facility [they moved].


----------



## CircuitalPlacidity

I remember playing an old Carvin Holdsworth Fatboy II at the showroom in LA. It was one of the most immaculately playing guitars I've ever touched and it didn't cost that much. Its such a shame that the quality has gone down as it used to be damn good for the price. Customer service has always been craptastic though. I remember when I was going to order my first nice guitar I called to place an order, with money in the bank account, and just had a few questions. The guy I talked to was a TOTAL tool bag so I went ahead and took my $2200 elsewhere. This was ~15 years ago.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

To be honest, I'm sad this sort of thing happens. I really like my Kiesel guitars, but it's getting harder and harder to ignore Jeff and company's attitude. I haven't had any legitimately bad experiences with them myself, but I don't think I'm going to buy another through them. Such a weird vibe Jeff gives off.

TedEH, as it stands they're a relatively safe bet if you want to try one of their guitars. Even the OP ended up getting his money back, albeit with a headache. If you really want to try one of their guitars, I definitely recommend something with no option 50's so in case something like this happens, you'll be good to go with no room for arguments. There's a 9 in 10 chance you'll get something good out of it. I do also want to hop on the Chris Hong praise bandwagon, as he's who I dealt with and to me he's like the poster child for customer service. The only way I'd order another guitar would be if it were through him, and if _you_ order a guitar from Kiesel, you should too.


----------



## Jeffbro

budda said:


> I'm glad buddy got his refund, and I'm bummed that people will continue to give this company money when this happens time and time again (bad guitars go out).



Because 95+% of their builds do come out very satisfactory and they have a very nice (for custom shops) return policy.

I don't even like their models but when they come out with something I want I have no problem giving them my money.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

jesus every kiesel thread devolves into this. the behavior of customer support was unacceptable but I still stand by Kiesel. They tend to make damn good guitars most of the time from what I've seen. The few times they've messed up they mess up hardcore. Can we just lock this ....show up already?


----------



## soliloquy

Jeffbro said:


> Because 95+% of their builds do come out very satisfactory and they have a very nice (for custom shops) *return policy*.
> 
> I don't even like their models but when they come out with something I want I have no problem giving them my money.



 that was changed as well...majority of their guitars on the GIS are no longer offering the return policy. 
previously it was on some crazy option 50 that would void the return policy. now they are putting them on more guitars more liberally....


----------



## marcwormjim

It seems the previous company's faith in their product is being phased out.

I second locking the thread. The OP's issue was resolved, that seems to be it for updates, and it's not like the company won't give us another thread like this within days.


----------



## Glades

KnightBrolaire said:


> jesus every kiesel thread devolves into this. the behavior of customer support was unacceptable but I still stand by Kiesel. They tend to make damn good guitars most of the time from what I've seen. The few times they've messed up they mess up hardcore. Can we just lock this ....show up already?



Why? These sort of threads are the reason why Internet Forums are so good!

Consumers, warning other consumers, of shady manufacturers with questionable business practices. We stand together as a community, helping each other out, warning each other to stay away from crap products.

We all have to work really hard for our money. And making informed decisions at the time of purchase is something that I think is really good.

If it wasn't for this thread, innocent consumers as myself or the next guy, would spend their money and likely run into the same sh**ty products, QC and customer service.

Why would you lock this thread? To keep the consumer uninformed? So that they waste their hard-earned money too?


----------



## MetalHead40

Glades said:


> Why? These sort of threads are the reason why Internet Forums are so good!
> 
> Consumers, warning other consumers, of shady manufacturers with questionable business practices. We stand together as a community, helping each other out, warning each other to stay away from crap products.
> 
> We all have to work really hard for our money. And making informed decisions at the time of purchase is something that I think is really good.
> 
> If it wasn't for this thread, innocent consumers as myself or the next guy, would spend their money and likely run into the same sh**ty products, QC and customer service.
> 
> Why would you lock this thread? To keep the consumer uninformed? So that they waste their hard-earned money too?



Agreed 100% with the member above 

Its not like anyone is forced to view this tread. If your sick of it, don't click on it.

Just saying.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Glades said:


> Why? These sort of threads are the reason why Internet Forums are so good!
> 
> Consumers, warning other consumers, of shady manufacturers with questionable business practices. We stand together as a community, helping each other out, warning each other to stay away from crap products.
> 
> We all have to work really hard for our money. And making informed decisions at the time of purchase is something that I think is really good.
> 
> If it wasn't for this thread, innocent consumers as myself or the next guy, would spend their money and likely run into the same sh**ty products, QC and customer service.
> 
> Why would you lock this thread? To keep the consumer uninformed? So that they waste their hard-earned money too?


I want the the thread locked because it's beating a  Anyone that's interested in learning about Kiesel will find tons of threads about them on here (with mixed opinions) so this thread really doesn't need to continue. *The point has been made.* Yes, the OP got hosed by the QC/customer support but at least he got a refund. I'm not discounting the bull.... that happened to the OP or trying to excuse the company's behavior, just simply sick of every thread that even mentions Kiesel devolving into a circlejerk. These are some of the most toxic threads on the forum next to the suicide silence thread imo.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Damn very sorry this happened man.


----------



## MetalHead40

KnightBrolaire said:


> I want the the thread locked because it's beating a  Anyone that's interested in learning about Kiesel will find tons of threads about them on here (with mixed opinions) so this thread really doesn't need to continue. *The point has been made.* Yes, the OP got hosed by the QC/customer support but at least he got a refund. I'm not discounting the bull.... that happened to the OP or trying to excuse the company's behavior, just simply sick of every thread that even mentions Kiesel devolving into a circlejerk. These are some of the most toxic threads on the forum next to the suicide silence thread imo.



Ok I get it pisses you off and you think its volatile and that's fair enough; your completely entitled to your opinion. But there are people who don't feel the same way you do, and I think its fair enough to let others who care to comment do so.

I really don't care to get into a pissing match, and not to sound like a dik, but Again, you don't have to continually return to the thread if it bothers you that much.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Hey just wanted to say I work in customer service all day. I work for Blue Cross and sometimes I want to yell at the people I get but you can't. I know the stress of taking constant calls all day and sometimes you want to snap. I've almost been there myself. They were stressed with NAMM and the one mistake with that is that he told you they take parts. He could have easily said that due to busy workshop, that he could not assist you at this time. 

Oh and yeah I forget callbacks all the time on same day. You have to think. You're not the only customer plus he probably didn't want to call until he had an answer. 

I'm sure this was handled by a supervisor. This stuff doesn't go unnoticed. I am sorry things did not go smoothly for you. Happy you got a refund. 

Everyone I have spoken with at Kiesel since I put my order in last week has been great. Even me calling to make a big change to it. They were all kind and great to deal with. V8 in Teal California Burst over Flamed Maple here I come!

I'm hoping my V8 turns out great!


----------



## JYNX2

KnightBrolaire said:


> I want the the thread locked because it's beating a  Anyone that's interested in learning about Kiesel will find tons of threads about them on here (with mixed opinions) so this thread really doesn't need to continue. *The point has been made.* Yes, the OP got hosed by the QC/customer support but at least he got a refund. I'm not discounting the bull.... that happened to the OP or trying to excuse the company's behavior, just simply sick of every thread that even mentions Kiesel devolving into a circlejerk. These are some of the most toxic threads on the forum next to the suicide silence thread imo.



Why does it matter to you and if it bothers you then don't look at it? Its good to get information out that this stuff goes on and will help someone out. After the way Mike handled the situation and how Jeff is disrespectful you are still fine with buying their guitars?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

JYNX2 said:


> Why does it matter to you and if it bothers you then don't look at it? Its good to get information out that this stuff goes on and will help someone out. After the way Mike handled the situation and how Jeff is disrespectful you are still fine with buying their guitars?



Considering I've gotten two excellent guitars from them, yes I would totally do business with them, just not Mike or Jeff personally. Chris Hong is the only person I'm letting handle my order ever again.


----------



## Jonathan20022

KnightBrolaire said:


> I want the the thread locked because it's beating a  Anyone that's interested in learning about Kiesel will find tons of threads about them on here (with mixed opinions) so this thread really doesn't need to continue. *The point has been made.* Yes, the OP got hosed by the QC/customer support but at least he got a refund. I'm not discounting the bull.... that happened to the OP or trying to excuse the company's behavior, just simply sick of every thread that even mentions Kiesel devolving into a circlejerk. These are some of the most toxic threads on the forum next to the suicide silence thread imo.



Dude I get it, because I used to defend them and side with Kiesel regularly as well. But seeing it from another perspective, there is no toxicity here besides people agreeing that what happens is ....ed up. No one is lynching one another, and you see it that way because you enjoy their products, your investment in the guitars you have, and a bit of bias. Saying that this should be locked, even when the mods who have already expressed they have no intentions of doing just that won't make it happen. No one is at each other's jugular being aggressive, and if it does get to that point I'd see a reason for it to happen but people are simply talking.

There's lots of things I don't like to see/read/hear, your device has the ability to avoid those things just like mine does.



r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Hey just wanted to say I work in customer service all day. I work for Blue Cross and sometimes I want to yell at the people I get but you can't. I know the stress of taking constant calls all day and sometimes you want to snap. I've almost been there myself. They were stressed with NAMM and the one mistake with that is that he told you they take parts. He could have easily said that due to busy workshop, that he could not assist you at this time.
> 
> Oh and yeah I forget callbacks all the time on same day. You have to think. You're not the only customer plus he probably didn't want to call until he had an answer.
> 
> I'm sure this was handled by a supervisor. This stuff doesn't go unnoticed. I am sorry things did not go smoothly for you. Happy you got a refund.
> 
> Everyone I have spoken with at Kiesel since I put my order in last week has been great. Even me calling to make a big change to it. They were all kind and great to deal with. V8 in Teal California Burst over Flamed Maple here I come!
> 
> I'm hoping my V8 turns out great!



I'm a business owner and I've had people overreact on the phone with me too, I've got several years of CS experience and even moreso from running my family's storefront when it was open and handling issues. You absolutely never have any right to speak to your customers like that, and you recognize that which is great. But him being on edge doesn't mean much, if he's not fit for his role and doesn't have the patience to simply tell a customer that he hasn't been able to find the time to handle his issue, then he shouldn't be in CS.

The second you clock in, you're being paid to do your job. And other people are paying you for consistent and good service, Mike should learn to keep his feelings at home and do just that. This was very different from the customer getting in his face and calling him incompetent and threatening to speak to a manager. He politely called back and inquired.

I also hope your guitar comes out great, but in my case I had 5 great guitars before something went wrong. And it was handled poorly enough for me to lose interest in the instrument/company.

I also had an issue with my first Aristides 070, Fedex damaged the guitar in transit and it was sitting in Customs for a long time. Box arrived clearly opened and retaped, what do you think those guys did? Apologize for something they didn't do, overnighted it back and put in a rebuild order for me for something at no charge to me. That's above and beyond, and that's not what every company does, but I literally had to fight with Jeff before I was offered a basic solution to a problem caused by *them*. And that's ridiculous. I think it's a larger show of character how a company/individual handles situations when things go wrong vs the good.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> *The point has been made.*



How long have you been on the internet if you think people need to stop discussing something once a point has been made? Trump's been president for like 3 months and we're still posting in a thread discussing if he's "really gonna get there"!

Whenever someone calls for a thread to be locked I'm always reminded of this George R.R. Martin quote, "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."



Jonathan20022 said:


> but I literally had to fight with Jeff before I was offered a basic solution to a problem caused by *them*. And that's ridiculous. I think it's a larger show of character how a company/individual handles situations when things go wrong vs the good.



And to do it to a customer like you, who probably brought in close to $10k in sales for them, just makes it that much more ridiculous. There's not a huge pool of people wanting to pay $3k+ for a Kiesel so I don't imagine it's going to work out well for them if they keep burning those bridges.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I think it's funny that the only one freaking out is the fanboy. 

I think this discussion has been the sanest kiesel thread in a while. 

For the record I own a kiesel. I'll happily buy more but I'd rather buy an in stock or a used that has been vetted.


----------



## noise in my mind

Sorry to the OP about your experience. My experience with has only been with Carvin, and it's been mixed. 
First guitar was a dc127. It has some weird paint swirl on a the back, but I let it slide.
Second guitar was a dc800. Great guitar, but I sold it.
Third guitar was another dc800. Not so great guitar. Had a dead sound to it and an awful stainless steel fret job.
My fourth and final guitar from them was a dc7x. It's awesome. Sounds huge, amazing top. Very happy. Overall I think they can make a great guitar, but I find Ibanez prestige more consistent.


----------



## Jeff

Jeffbro said:


> Because 95+% of their builds do come out very satisfactory and they have a very nice (for custom shops) return policy.
> 
> I don't even like their models but when they come out with something I want I have no problem giving them my money.




I'm curious how you arrive at this number, when you've got no idea what their return rate is, nor how happy people are with the quality.


----------



## Jeff

KnightBrolaire said:


> Considering I've gotten two excellent guitars from them, yes I would totally do business with them, just not Mike or Jeff personally. Chris Hong is the only person I'm letting handle my order ever again.



Considering I've gotten five that have sucked, I totally wouldn't.


----------



## GraemeH

Jeffbro said:


> Because 95+% of their builds do come out very satisfactory



5% of guitars leaving a factory with their necks literally _pointing in the wrong direction_ is not acceptable...


----------



## cwhitey2

GraemeH said:


> 5% of guitars leaving a factory with their necks literally _pointing in the wrong direction_ is not acceptable...



I work in production and customer service.


I would be fired with error rate of 5%. Hell, I'm yelled at for a .1% error rate after growing 'my department' by 60 over the last 2 years....


I have a Carvin, but I don't know if I'll ever order a custom instrument from Kiesel. I would definitely have to play it first.


----------



## soliloquy

Guys, one thing you are forgetting is that carvin/kiesel is mainly an online company. Comparing it to prs, gibson, hamer, esp etc wont really give a fare result in the sense that majority/all of people who are buying carvin/kiesel are online. What does that mean?

Other guitars you dont have to go online to buy. You go to guitar stores and have dealing with their customer service directly if something goes wrong. And even if something does go wrong, because they are dealing with the store directly, people wont complain online as much as they can blame it on guitarstore.

On the other hand, carvin/kiesel is online, thus if anything goes wrong, its more over emphasised. 

Im not really defending carvin/kiesel, but i think the lemons issued by carvin/kisel are a bit over saturated for that very reason, and may not really represent a true lemon to gold ratio


----------



## MetalHead40

soliloquy said:


> Guys, one thing you are forgetting is that carvin/kiesel is mainly an online company. Comparing it to prs, gibson, hamer, esp etc wont really give a fare result in the sense that majority/all of people who are buying carvin/kiesel are online. What does that mean?
> 
> Other guitars you dont have to go online to buy. You go to guitar stores and have dealing with their customer service directly if something goes wrong. And even if something does go wrong, because they are dealing with the store directly, people wont complain online as much as they can blame it on guitarstore.
> 
> On the other hand, carvin/kiesel is online, thus if anything goes wrong, its more over emphasised.
> 
> Im not really defending carvin/kiesel, but i think the lemons issued by carvin/kisel are a bit over saturated for that very reason, and may not really represent a true lemon to gold ratio




I don't think where or how you purchase a guitar nor what brand it is will have much effect on the number of internet/forum based reviews of said guitars. If someone buys a PRS or an Ibanez that has issues or sketchy QC their likely to report about it on the web just as they do Kiesel. 

Same goes for the customer service aspect. If its bad customer service whether it was received through a traditional retail store or an online retailer people will talk about it on guitar/gear forums equally. 

There are just as many threads on any given guitar/gear forum both praising or criticizing every brand under the sun regardless of where and how they were purchased. All IMHO of course.


----------



## marcwormjim

Jeff said:


> I'm curious how you arrive at this number, when you've got no idea what their return rate is, nor how happy people are with the quality.



Check out some of his other posts - Ignoring him will waste the least of your time.


----------



## Shask

MetalHead40 said:


> I don't think where or how you purchase a guitar nor what brand it is will have much effect on the number of internet/forum based reviews of said guitars. If someone buys a PRS or an Ibanez that has issues or sketchy QC their likely to report about it on the web just as they do Kiesel.
> 
> Same goes for the customer service aspect. If its bad customer service whether it was received through a traditional retail store or an online retailer people will talk about it on guitar/gear forums equally.
> 
> There are just as many threads on any given guitar/gear forum both praising or criticizing every brand under the sun regardless of where and how they were purchased. All IMHO of course.



To me, it doesn't seem like the main issue is the fact that people are getting lemons.... it is how Kiesel are responding to the problems that everyone is getting mad about. All companies have problems, but dealing with them properly is important, especially in word-of-mouth sales like musical instruments.

As I said on RT, this is making me sad. I would like to order one, but it is making me nervous with all of the issues lately. I may get PRS instead. If I do Kiesel, it will definitely be basic specs that can be returned easily. I am sure many are like me.... thinking about it, but losing trust that things would not be taken care of, and feeling more like a lottery.


----------



## BouhZik

soliloquy said:


> Guys, one thing you are forgetting is that carvin/kiesel is mainly an online company. Comparing it to prs, gibson, hamer, esp etc wont really give a fare result in the sense that majority/all of people who are buying carvin/kiesel are online. What does that mean?
> 
> Other guitars you dont have to go online to buy. You go to guitar stores and have dealing with their customer service directly if something goes wrong. And even if something does go wrong, because they are dealing with the store directly, people wont complain online as much as they can blame it on guitarstore.
> 
> On the other hand, carvin/kiesel is online, thus if anything goes wrong, its more over emphasised.
> 
> Im not really defending carvin/kiesel, but i think the lemons issued by carvin/kisel are a bit over saturated for that very reason, and may not really represent a true lemon to gold ratio



Maybe you are right, but that's their choice. They now have to deal with the consequences, the same way unhappy customers have to deal with their ....ty customer service. 

I'm glad people makes those threads.


----------



## MetalHead40

Shask said:


> As I said on RT, this is making me sad. I would like to order one, but it is making me nervous with all of the issues lately. I may get PRS instead. If I do Kiesel, it will definitely be basic specs that can be returned easily. I am sure many are like me.... thinking about it, but losing trust that things would not be taken care of, and feeling more like a lottery.



This is exactly why I ordered with NO option 50 stuff. I had read one too many bad reviews where people got stuck and had to keep it or sell at a major loss. The Carvin I ordered four years ago was an option 50 and I did wind up with two issues when it arrived. One was minor, the other a bit bigger issue, but I fixed it and still have and love that guitar.


----------



## Shask

MetalHead40 said:


> This is exactly why I ordered with NO option 50 stuff. I had read one too many bad reviews where people got stuck and had to keep it or sell at a major loss. The Carvin I ordered four years ago was an option 50 and I did wind up with two issues when it arrived. One was minor, the other a bit bigger issue, but I fixed it and still have and love that guitar.



This is why your story bugs me so much. I feel like many of the complaints I read fall under "unrealistic expectations". Special paint matches, specific wood tops, etc..... Things that I would consider impossible for them to deliver on what your ideal situation expectation is....

However, your guitar definitely has a structural defect. A backwards neck pocket is definitely not "normal" and should easily fall under the category of something they should be able to do. In my opinion, this should have been offered as a rebuild, no questions asked, immediately.


----------



## MetalHead40

Shask said:


> This is why your story bugs me so much. I feel like many of the complaints I read fall under "unrealistic expectations". Special paint matches, specific wood tops, etc..... Things that I would consider impossible for them to deliver on what your ideal situation expectation is....
> 
> However, your guitar definitely has a structural defect. A backwards neck pocket is definitely not "normal" and should easily fall under the category of something they should be able to do. In my opinion, this should have been offered as a rebuild, no questions asked, immediately.



100% agreed 

If a customer has a specific vision of how they want a top to come out or some other aesthetic, that is in their head and no one else's. The reality of the builder being able to nail that exactly is pretty slim. It can/does happen like in my case. As I said several times, from an aesthetic standpoint mine came out exactly how I envisioned it and did so purely by chance. I got lucky on that front. The rest of the experience, not so much.

So it makes sense then that the guys that raise holy hell if their vision is not re-created by a builder can and does cause somewhat unnecessary negativity and thus potentially tarnish a builders reputation based on the customers unrealistic expectations.


----------



## bostjan

One major factor that enters into the vision vs reality side of ordering a custom is budget. If you are paying $2k or less for a full custom, then I expect your options to be limited or else the quality to suffer as a result.

I think other posts already mentioned it, but Kiesel offers a lot of crazy options for not much cost to the customer.

Mind you, if you called up the Gibson custom shop and demanded a headless multiscale eight string guitar with a burled contoured drop top, they would either say no or want something like $20k+.


----------



## xzacx

soliloquy said:


> Guys, one thing you are forgetting is that carvin/kiesel is mainly an online company. Comparing it to prs, gibson, hamer, esp etc wont really give a fare result in the sense that majority/all of people who are buying carvin/kiesel are online. What does that mean?



This is exactly why Kiesel has even less room for error. And every botched build, every poorly handled customer service experience, that's what people have to go on since they can't play them in stores. Those are what potential customers have to judge, and are why Kiesel can't afford to alienate people like this.


----------



## spudmunkey

The Hipshot bridge on this model is a bit confusing. The bridge has a max-allowable height for the saddles and when I measured mine, they fell JUUUUST within the maximum height, which is technically "OK" but not ideal. It's also not particularly comfortable.

I've also thought about putting the thicker-bottomed bridge on mine as that would eat up about 1.2mm of that height...but it's still not a huge difference.

I see that the issue is "solved", but it's a shame it happened. I've got 3 (one used...) and they have all been amazing. The 1st one I ordered online and it arrived perfectly, and the 2nd one had a ton of op 50s and it (and my CS experience) was awesome.

I actually don't even have a problem with holding parts for NAMM builds...but that's not something you tell customers. You tell them that QC and final checks are backed-up, and shipment is slowing down until NAMM. No big whoop.




possumkiller said:


> There was never any danger of me getting a kiesel based on [...] wasting half a figured top.



Oh, come on. That's like saying "I don't buy a Ford because I don't like sedans." Kiesel does that on one model (the Aries), and they even offer an option to have the full top. Then they have 3 more (K series, SCB, Vanquish) that have smaller bevels. That leaves well over 20 guitar models and all but one bass model with no through-top bevels.


----------



## MetalHead40

spudmunkey said:


> I actually don't even have a problem with holding parts for NAMM builds...but that's not something you tell customers. You tell them that QC and final checks are backed-up, and shipment is slowing down until NAMM. No big whoop



It wasn't stated that they were holding parts for NAMM (as in holding parts that could of held up my build completion), but rather that they were possibly taking parts off the guitar I had already paid for and that I received an email several days prior as being complete and ready to ship.


----------



## Seventhwave

MetalHead40 said:


> It wasn't stated that they were holding parts for NAMM (as in holding parts that could of held up my build completion), but rather that they were possibly taking parts off the guitar I had already paid for and that I received an email several days prior as being complete and ready to ship.



It's not like these guys are new to the NAMM show either. After attending the show multiple times and knowing the window of time to prepare instruments to showcase, is it really that difficult to make sure they have what they need ahead of time? If they wind up short parts for a particular instrument or two (or more depending on how poorly they planned for the show) who should suffer because of that? The Kiesel booth or paying customers? One wouldn't exist without the other. Perhaps Jeff should take a break from posting pictures on Instagram of every tooty fruity paint job he does and consider that.


----------



## davedeath

"tooty fruity paint job" couldn't say it any better


----------



## Jeffbro

MetalHead40 said:


> 100% agreed
> 
> If a customer has a specific vision of how they want a top to come out or some other aesthetic, that is in their head and no one else's. The reality of the builder being able to nail that exactly is pretty slim. It can/does happen like in my case. As I said several times, from an aesthetic standpoint mine came out exactly how I envisioned it and did so purely by chance. I got lucky on that front. The rest of the experience, not so much.
> 
> So it makes sense then that the guys that raise holy hell if their vision is not re-created by a builder can and does cause somewhat unnecessary negativity and thus potentially tarnish a builders reputation based on the customers unrealistic expectations.



So true

We all remember that guy who order the blue burst option 50 with tough woods to color. First he thought it was too dark, then he wanted another one, then he thought the new one was too light, then he wanted another one. When he didn't get a third guitar he started the greatest bash thread in SSO history.

Imagine if you were the builder here. I would blacklist the guy from ever ordering again and sue him. When you all complain option 50s aren't returnable, think about people who abuse it. This is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeffbro said:


> When you all complain option 50s aren't returnable, think about people who abuse it. This is why we can't have nice things.



It's kind of their fault though at this point.

Back in the day, before Option 50s were a dime a dozen, they VERY rarely undertook them. It was typically only done for long time customers, or those with at least one or two builds under their belt and they only signed off on it when they were 99.9% sure they could do it. The process itself was also very hands on, especially for custom colors or customer supplied woods. They were basically the "Kiesel Editions" of their time. 

It seems now they're much more open to doing "off the sheet" work and for pretty much anyone. Since they don't seem to be stopping, it's pretty safe to assume it's bringing in more cash than headache at this point.


----------



## A-Branger

Jeffbro said:


> So true
> 
> We all remember that guy who order the blue burst option 50 with tough woods to color. First he thought it was too dark, then he wanted another one, then he thought the new one was too light, then he wanted another one. When he didn't get a third guitar he started the greatest bash thread in SSO history.
> 
> Imagine if you were the builder here. I would blacklist the guy from ever ordering again and sue him. When you all complain option 50s aren't returnable, think about people who abuse it. This is why we can't have nice things.



not sure if you are talking about a diferent one, but the big SSO bash tread ona op50 blue burst thing was quite different story than what you are telling. You are making the guy who order it a prick who couldnt make up his mind because everything keep going wrong to his personal taste, and good old Kiesel did everything to please him. A story that I bet happened mroe than enough times in order to them create the "no return" option for stuff like custom colors.

But the big bash story in fact was a big screw up from Kiesel. The customer wanted a specific paint job which he suplied photos of. And although yes, the woods he chose werent the best to stain/paint in that particular finish. Kiesel didnt even got close to that finish. Not only the color hues and shades were wrong but the "burst" was completely different too. The problem in that case was they couldnt advice the customer for using those woods, the dificulty of the paint job, or at least say to him "sorry I know this is not the same you asked for, this is the best we could do, do you want to keep it or have it refinish?, but we cant give your money back because op50..." Instead they jsut say "here, this is what you asked for" wash their hands and hide behind the op50 excuse even when the paint job was completely off


----------



## wannabguitarist

^and months later they released a few guitars with burl tops and colors very similar to what that guy initially ordered.


----------



## spudmunkey

Yeah, I'm a self-proclaimed Kiesel Fatboy, but that was one of (if not) the worst finish matches I've seen from them...and the only one i can think of that I think was worse I honestly believe was even just that they completely shipped the wrong guitar (this was never confirmed, though).


----------



## Lionsden

I've heard that they can churn out amazing guitars but I've never heard of a positive experience when an issue has come up. I've spoken to 3-4 other individuals who were treated extremely poorly by Kiesel when they had issues with their guitars so this thread didn't surprise me. I think they hit the mark a lot more then not but God forbid the lot lands on you and you get the dud...


----------



## Bdtunn

I'll be honest I've ordered two guitars from them, a dc800 and a Vader. Both guitars came to me with minor issues. Chris hong took care of me and took care of me fast I'll back him. But I will never order from them again because of all the nonsense that is following them. I don't like the way jeff handles himself, it just comes off as pompous. I've since sold both guitars and moved on. In my business and everyone's there are issues, but as stated it's how you handle those issues that sets you apart. If egos could be checked then they could really put the company on track.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

Came so close to buying one. I was JUST NOW on the site looking at options. lol
Thanks for posting this OP. Kiesel won't be getting my money.


----------



## mnemonic

wannabguitarist said:


> ^and months later they released a few guitars with burl tops and colors very similar to what that guy initially ordered.



"You can't do a bent top on a vader, the angle is too sharp"

>Releases bent top vader

"You can't stain a burl top, the stain won't take"

>Releases stained burl top guitars


----------



## TheTrooper

I think the problem here isn't "the guitar had something wrong" but the "they treated me like sh*t!".
They offer returns, so You always have that option but to treat a customer like that, KNOWING that a thread like this might come up, it's just stupid.

I had a Carvin (Holdsworth) and a Kiesel (Vader) (got them both used, so no direct link with the CS) and they were great guitars. 
The Vader had a funny/strange smell but the Holdsworth was just incredible.

As somebody already said: it's the way the handle (or don't) the problems.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Lionsden said:


> I've heard that they can churn out amazing guitars but I've never heard of a positive experience when an issue has come up. I've spoken to 3-4 other individuals who were treated extremely poorly by Kiesel when they had issues with their guitars so this thread didn't surprise me. I think they hit the mark a lot more then not but God forbid the lot lands on you and you get the dud...



To be fair, people will always be more vocal when inconvenienced. You're more likely to see more people bitch than sing praise. Nobody starts a "check out my awesome experience with customer service" thread. lol

I should say they do pop up, but typically only clear shills.


----------



## Jeffbro

mnemonic said:


> "You can't do a bent top on a vader, the angle is too sharp"
> 
> >Releases bent top vader
> 
> "You can't stain a burl top, the stain won't take"
> 
> >Releases stained burl top guitars



Strong logic...

It's called technology and development, maybe they didn't have equipment or protocol to do those things at the time. No one is making a whole building protocol just for you.



Chokey Chicken said:


> To be fair, people will always be more vocal when inconvenienced. You're more likely to see more people bitch than sing praise. Nobody starts a "check out my awesome experience with customer service" thread. lol
> 
> I should say they do pop up, but typically only clear shills.



This is true, Kiesel probably puts out 10x or more customs in the US (majority of sso) than any other custom builder. Logically they would have much more bash threads.


----------



## cwhitey2

Chokey Chicken said:


> To be fair, people will always be more vocal when inconvenienced. You're more likely to see more people bitch than sing praise. Nobody starts a "check out my awesome experience with customer service" thread. lol
> 
> I should say they do pop up, but typically only clear shills.




There is a recent line 6 one


----------



## Lemons

Jeffbro said:


> Strong logic...
> 
> It's called technology and development, maybe they didn't have equipment or protocol to do those things at the time. No one is making a whole building protocol just for you.



I've stayed out of this till now, but that's just pure bull****. Bending a top isn't some ridiculous new build technology, they've been doing it over other forearm carves for years now. As for staining a burl top, don't even try an rationalise their attempt at staining that top in particular. It was a bad attempt that shouldn't have ever been shipped, end of story. I get that the Kiesel hate train gets a little out of control here now and then, but no one should be trying to defend those points.


----------



## simonXsludge

Jeffbro said:


> This is true, Kiesel probably puts out 10x or more customs in the US (majority of sso) than any other custom builder. Logically they would have much more bash threads.


They mentioned that they ship about 20 guitars a day in a video recently.


----------



## feraledge

Chokey Chicken said:


> To be fair, people will always be more vocal when inconvenienced. You're more likely to see more people bitch than sing praise. Nobody starts a "check out my awesome experience with customer service" thread. lol
> 
> I should say they do pop up, but typically only clear shills.



This isn't really true. The complaint threads are more likely to generate controversy and interest, but there's no shortage of praises sung on this forum. There are a ton of NGDs where people give shout outs to their Sweetwater reps, Rich from IbanezRules, I've seen nothing but praise in nearly every post resulting from a purchase through him. In my wordy NGD posts, I'll talk up the seller if it's a solid exchange, sometimes even if it's another forum member or some store I dug. I've been so stoked on my experience with getting a custom made by Sully that him and I are still regularly in touch and I'll continue to sing his praises. 
I think just yesterday I saw a thread on SSO with someone posting about how great Line 6's CS is. It happens, it just doesn't generate the same kind of follow up an angry thread does. But why shouldn't that be the case? Solid customer service is selling something rad and being cool about it. Great customer service is when something goes wrong and the fix improves the outcome and turns that negative experience around. Many companies might never need to be great, just solid. But when a company has bad customer service, then it's an issue and a red flag. In this case, with everything coming out of Kiesel being semi-custom, that matters a whole lot more than anywhere else where a received product could probably just be swapped out.



Jeffbro said:


> This is true, Kiesel probably puts out 10x or more customs in the US (majority of sso) than any other custom builder. Logically they would have much more bash threads.



No, logically they would have more people working quality control.


----------



## Seventhwave

mnemonic said:


> "You can't do a bent top on a vader, the angle is too sharp"
> 
> >Releases bent top vader
> 
> "You can't stain a burl top, the stain won't take"
> 
> >Releases stained burl top guitars



I had them do a color match of the transparent white finish Framus did for Devin Townsend on a DC600. This was 2013/2014 I believe. At first I was told they don't do that finish anymore (they had a "whitewash" over ash years ago, but stopped offering it.) but Mike Jones said let me see what I can do. They agreed to do it.

They did a decent job on the color match. I posted pictures of the finished guitar on the Carvin site, and Mike Jones commented and said something along the lines of "Enjoy your one off guitar - It's a pain in the ass to get right. We won't be doing another one." 

Then they started offering it as an available finish shortly thereafter. Though, I think it's an option50.

Just seems to be how they do things.


----------



## Exit Existence

A-Branger said:


> not sure if you are talking about a diferent one, but the big SSO bash tread ona op50 blue burst thing was quite different story than what you are telling....




Unrelated but I took about a year or so off from guitar related forums. Found that thread for the first time wayyyy late a few weeks ago.

Saw the pic the guy sent in...... It was MY pic of MY old Agile guitar that he must have taken from one of my threads. Poor dude, that picture was all instagram filtered oversaturated and everything, wasn't even a good representation of the finish. LOL


----------



## diagrammatiks

Exit Existence said:


> Unrelated but I took about a year or so off from guitar related forums. Found that thread for the first time wayyyy late a few weeks ago.
> 
> Saw the pic the guy sent in...... It was MY pic of MY old Agile guitar that he must have taken from one of my threads. Poor dude, that picture was all instagram filtered oversaturated and everything, wasn't even a good representation of the finish. LOL



now this is funny.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

Seventhwave said:


> It's not like these guys are new to the NAMM show either. After attending the show multiple times and knowing the window of time to prepare instruments to showcase, is it really that difficult to make sure they have what they need ahead of time? If they wind up short parts for a particular instrument or two (or more depending on how poorly they planned for the show) who should suffer because of that? The Kiesel booth or paying customers? One wouldn't exist without the other. Perhaps Jeff should take a break from posting pictures on Instagram of every tooty fruity paint job he does and consider that.



Oh you know you drool over the paintjobs!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

so I talked with a guy in the vader owner's group on facebook and he told me he had to wait *26 weeks* for his guitar to be finished due to the custom slanted duncans causing huuuge delays. 













I'd say a guitar that looks that nice was well worth the wait


----------



## Hollowway

Jeffbro said:


> Strong logic...
> 
> It's called technology and development, maybe they didn't have equipment or protocol to do those things at the time. No one is making a whole building protocol just for you.



Well, that's not an accurate representation of what happened. The issue is not that they cannot do the things yet - it's that Jeff says it's either impossible, or that they will never do it. And then we find out that it's been under development anyway. What Jeff says can just not be trusted any more. I want the new trem on an Aries 8, and they say it's never going to happen, and that I should just order a Vader. No way I'm believing that. I ah be wrong, it I'm willing to bet we see the new trem on other models within a year.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Hollowway said:


> Well, that's not an accurate representation of what happened. The issue is not that they cannot do the things yet - it's that Jeff says it's either impossible, or that they will never do it. And then we find out that it's been under development anyway. What Jeff says can just not be trusted any more. I want the new trem on an Aries 8, and they say it's never going to happen, and that I should just order a Vader. No way I'm believing that. I ah be wrong, it I'm willing to bet we see the new trem on other models within a year.




They also want me to pay 500 dollars to be the first person to have a 27 inch trem vader....yay?


----------



## marcwormjim

Jeff specifically stated that they "will not" be making a multiscale or non-25.5" scale hipshot trem available - Which means to just wait a year if you want to save those franklins.


----------



## Jeffbro

Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company, always making new specs happen

People are basically complaining that they don't make new features fast enough. I want this and I want that, you don't make it yet so I'm gonna get mad and trash the company...


----------



## narad

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company


----------



## JYNX2

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company, always making new specs happen
> 
> People are basically complaining that they don't make new features fast enough. I want this and I want that, you don't make it yet so I'm gonna get mad and trash the company...



Who is saying this? And by cutting edge what do you mean?


----------



## curlyvice

Jeffbro said:


> People are basically complaining that they don't make new features fast enough. I want this and I want that, you don't make it yet so I'm gonna get mad and trash the company...




1) This thread isn't trashing Kiesel. It was a complaint based on a legitimately poor customer service experience and a product with a substantial defect. This thread has remained pretty civil thus far. There hasn't been much trashing, bashing, slandering, whatever...

2) People have complained because they have asked for something such as curved tops and were told "no, it's impossible, we'll never do it" only to see Kiesel offering that exact option a few months down the line.


----------



## xzacx

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company, always making new specs happen



Cutting edge?  More like fast fashion - basically the Zara of the guitar world - rushing their version of whatever is hot at the moment to market. (Albeit at a higher quality.)


----------



## Jeffbro

curlyvice said:


> 2) People have complained because they have asked for something such as curved tops and were told "no, it's impossible, we'll never do it" only to see Kiesel offering that exact option a few months down the line.



So they figured out a reasonably economic way to produce that option at a later date. They didn't do it before maybe because they didn't have equipment or demand or whatever. Big deal... no point in crying about it.



xzacx said:


> Cutting edge?  More like fast fashion - basically the Zara of the guitar world - rushing their version of whatever is hot at the moment to market. (Albeit at a higher quality.)



Name one custom shop with more options. I'm not even a fan of their designs but you can't deny they've always kept up with the newest stuff. Especially with exotic woods and finishes.


----------



## soliloquy

curlyvice said:


> 1) This thread isn't trashing Kiesel. It was a complaint based on a legitimately poor customer service experience and a product with a substantial defect. This thread has remained pretty civil thus far. There hasn't been much trashing, bashing, slandering, whatever...
> 
> *2) People have complained because they have asked for something such as curved tops and were told "no, it's impossible, we'll never do it" only to see Kiesel offering that exact option a few months down the line.*




come to think of it, i never was including myself in that group, but i think i should.
i always had a thing for single cut guitars. i always had a thing for 24 frets. i was REALLY hoping for a single cut 24 fret guitar that carvin would offer (closer to les paul than tele). i asked carvin numerous times and they said 'nope, we have no plans to release a CS3/4/6-24, EVER.'

i ordered a 22 fret cs6m. loved it. the 10 days return policy expire, and about 14 days after i received my guitar, they announce the CS3/4/6-24



now, i get why they would do that too. if they announce before hand all their next steps, no one would buy their current stuff. 

though, thinking back, i may still have had that cs6m if it was for 24 frets. i sold it mainly for that reason and got a CT424 instead.


----------



## xzacx

Jeffbro said:


> I'm not even a fan of their designs but you can't deny they've always kept up with the newest stuff.



I never said they didn't - keeping up with the newest stuff is exactly what they do, but it's totally contradictory to them being "cutting edge."


----------



## dmlinger

Jeffbro said:


> Name one custom shop with more options.



By options, I'm assuming you mean woods, finishes, etc. These may not have more "options", but these have plenty to choose from. 

Suhr, Tom Anderson, Mayones, Fender, Jackson CS, Schecter CS, ESP CS, Skervesen....

More "options" does not make a better instrument.


----------



## oracles

Jeffbro said:


> Name one custom shop with more options. I'm not even a fan of their designs but you can't deny they've always kept up with the newest stuff. Especially with exotic woods and finishes.



Let's see..uh actual custom shop luthiers maybe? Kiesel doesn't offer unobtainium woods or finishes, they do things well within the confines of what other CS builders do, and then Jeff throws a tantrum because someone "stole" his design that he stole from someone else. 

Aristides started having serious success on chameleon finishes, so of course Jeff brings them back and claims to have been the first CS shop to do it.

Jeff did the stained fretboards (which are guaranteed to look like .... in the not too distant future, and some already do) and claimed to have invented that too. Ibanez did that sh*t in the 80s.

Here's an actual challenge, name one custom shop that's produced more gaudy and painfully ugly guitars than Kiesel.


----------



## littleredguitars2

cutting edge? more like cutting corners. amirite?

i'll leave.


----------



## diagrammatiks

lol did jeffbro get banned for this thread? i feel like this has been the most reasonable kiesel thread in history.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

oracles said:


> Let's see..uh actual custom shop luthiers maybe? Kiesel doesn't offer unobtainium woods or finishes, they do things well within the confines of what other CS builders do, and then Jeff throws a tantrum because someone "stole" his design that he stole from someone else.
> 
> Aristides started having serious success on chameleon finishes, so of course Jeff brings them back and claims to have been the first CS shop to do it.
> 
> Jeff did the stained fretboards (which are guaranteed to look like .... in the not too distant future, and some already do) and claimed to have invented that too. Ibanez did that sh*t in the 80s.
> 
> Here's an actual challenge, name one custom shop that's produced more gaudy and painfully ugly guitars than Kiesel.



he's pretty delusional at times. I remember him ripping off PRS and then claiming he created the arctic fade/burst first  
Kiesel has the capability of churning out nice looking guitars though I'll never understand their obsession with "antique" ash (which looks like .... imo).


----------



## Lemons

diagrammatiks said:


> lol did jeffbro get banned for this thread? i feel like this has been the most reasonable kiesel thread in history.



Jeffbro is Jeff Kiesel = Confirmed


----------



## A-Branger

Jeffbro said:


> So they figured out a reasonably economic way to produce that option at a later date. They didn't do it before maybe because they didn't have equipment or demand or whatever. Big deal... no point in crying about it.



the problem wasnt that they say "no" to a customer, it was the way it was said.

One thing is to say "No, we would never do it", and then couple of months release the specs to the public....... which in a way is like you lied to your customer as you knew the technology was in development, so the customer felt forced to buy the guitar as "this would have to do since theres no way they are gonna make it", only to see they could have buy the guitar the do wanted if they waited. You make them fully believe it was no possible in 100 years, when it wasnt true

and another one is to say "at this moment we are not doing it, if enough people show interest we might do it"... or "we dont have the technology to do it right now, maybe in the future"..... "we are finding a way to make it posible for you guys to get it, it might take couple of weeks or it might take a year if you wanna wait"......"we are doing some test, but no hopes so far"...... ect ect ect


I get the dotn make their hopes too high in case things wont workout. But again its all about how you say it. You cant 100% confirm things that latter wont happen. But on the other side of the coin, you cant deny 100% things only to later be happened. Its equally bad, you arent "exceeding expectations" here


----------



## feraledge

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company, always making new specs happen



Am I the only one who read this as a bevel joke? Cause it's a solid one. 

Kiesel appears cutting edge because they tell you that can't do something that they could, but aren't: ie, bending tops, multiscale, etc. Then they do it and make it sound like they invented the technique. Jeff's first video on the multiscale Vader was seemingly a shot at everyone else who already has been making them (seemingly wrong). If I was Perry, I'd be offended, but Perry seems to like him, so not worth making a stink about. However, to say they're innovating is just plain wrong. 
What they are doing is making a ton of excuses about how much of a pain each change in CNC programming is so they can get as many opt50 orders in and milk it before just adding it to the menu and having it take off (offset dots, a huge example).


----------



## Exit Existence

Any one watch the Kiesel Live stream today? Jeff Kiesel touched on this topic, I'm assuming he's seen this thread. He said it's literally impossible for the neck to not be flat in the pocket since the neck and pocket are both done on the CNC. He also said that "people can do camera trickery and make things look weird or interesting, and it's a shame people do things like that"
ShotsFireddddddddddddddddd


----------



## marcwormjim

diagrammatiks said:


> lol did jeffbro get banned for this thread?



I hope it's only temporary - For as much as he deserved a time-out, his nonsense was also hilarious.


----------



## hardvalve

Exit Existence said:


> Any one watch the Kiesel Live stream today? Jeff Kiesel touched on this topic, I'm assuming he's seen this thread. He said it's literally impossible for the neck to not be flat in the pocket since the neck and pocket are both done on the CNC. He also said that "people can do camera trickery and make things look weird or interesting, and it's a shame people do things like that"
> ShotsFireddddddddddddddddd



In the video at 12:30 he discusses it. Notice that the bridge is now gold, and the one in the OP was black. Not Sayimg they fixed it, then not saying they didn't. Seems odd..... They also posted a response at Rig Talk, called the OP a liar basically, then said they would not monitor the thread anymore.


----------



## Hollowway

Jeffbro said:


> Name one custom shop with more options. I'm not even a fan of their designs but you can't deny they've always kept up with the newest stuff. Especially with exotic woods and finishes.



Shoot, I can't think of a custom shop I've used that DOESN'T have more options. OAF/Tom Drinkwater will do anything you want. I've had 2 10 strings from him, a single cut 8 string, and an 8 string with buckeye burl, bloodwood, canarywood, mac ebony, and Laces. Kiesel will do none of those. I have a 9 string from Doberman. Custom designed between John and me. Joe Egan will build you anything INCLUDING acoustics and jazz boxes. The fact is that Kiesel is NOT a custom shop. They're a pick-your-wood-and-finish-from-our-choices shop. You can't even pick your own pickups. No custom inlays, body shapes, scale lengths, number of strings, etc. I think it's a great business model, and there are loads of cabinet/furniture/sofa type companies that use a similar model with great success. But it's not custom.


----------



## BouhZik

Exit Existence said:


> Any one watch the Kiesel Live stream today? Jeff Kiesel touched on this topic, I'm assuming he's seen this thread. He said it's literally impossible for the neck to not be flat in the pocket since the neck and pocket are both done on the CNC. He also said that "people can do camera trickery and make things look weird or interesting, and it's a shame people do things like that"
> ShotsFireddddddddddddddddd



watching it right now on FB. the way he showed that neck that's for sure he's talking about this thread lol. so if it's camera trickery and impossible for the neck to not be flat in the pocket, what is wrong with op's guitar?


----------



## MetalHead40

Exit Existence said:


> Any one watch the Kiesel Live stream today? Jeff Kiesel touched on this topic, I'm assuming he's seen this thread. He said it's literally impossible for the neck to not be flat in the pocket since the neck and pocket are both done on the CNC. He also said that "people can do camera trickery and make things look weird or interesting, and it's a shame people do things like that"
> ShotsFireddddddddddddddddd



Yeah I just learned over at RT he talked about this debacle in some video.

For the record, I never even made any claim that the neck/pocket was part of my issue. I posted that pic at the request of another member here who thought that a neck/pocket alignment issue could have caused the saddle height issues.

If this guy is trying to defend his companies horrible customer service and my flawed build by centering his defense on this neck/pocket picture, he's flat out clueless. 

My statement preceding that picture was as follows:

"Another member mentioned this, *and I'm not sure if this picture shows the neck angle/pocket as maybe contributing to the issue I had with saddle height*, but here is the only pic that would show that relationship"


----------



## Nour Ayasso

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'd say a guitar that looks that nice was well worth the wait



Paying over a grand and waiting over two years for a beautiful instrument that doesn't perform correctly is not worth the wait.


----------



## Nick

Camera trickery and build quality aside the thing that gets me about this is the customer service or lack of.

So if Jeff Keisel is reading this maybe he should focus more on the fact that there is a guy who thinks it is ok to tell a customer who has paid in full that he is 'being rude' for making an inquiry about a guitar he has just received a really wooly non-answer about previously. 

Also maybe hire someone who is not dumb enough to actually tell people you scavenge parts off of completed, paid for guitars for NAMM displays. Whether that actually happens or not, the fact that the guy thought it was cool to just say it shows he isn't smart enough to be in that job!


----------



## possumkiller

So he is reading this?

Please stop wasting nice figured wood! Not only does it look hideous, it's just wasteful!

Or if you absolutely have to make those gigantic cuts from a top, use what you cut off as the top on the next guitar.


----------



## Viginez

hardvalve said:


> They also posted a response at Rig Talk, called the OP a liar basically


how lame.
that basically confirms their questionable behavior towards customers.
stop complaining, fix the instrument and send it back to the happy customer. profit.


----------



## rocky0

Holy ..... That is unspeakably amateurish customerservice. I guess they want to destroy their rep or something like that.


----------



## Fred the Shred

This sort of thread always leaves me incredibly confused. Flukes do happen, it's a company producing quite a few guitars with a very large array of options and in the middle of an adaptation process, from what I gather, from new machinery to new plant, etc.. It's really normal to have to take a few passes on the QC department to be able to tighten tolerances and have fewer instruments with whatever flaws come out.

What isn't really normal to me is the hostility is have seen from some people in the company in regards to what appear to be legitimate consumer concerns and requests to solve issues. I just can't understand it, since the negative PR it generates, for one, is immense. Also, even a non substantiated claim from a customer is to be met with professionalism and politeness, even as the claim is denied. Add to this how nice and polite some of the reps working at Kiesel are (Chris Hong does stand out, and as a bit of offtopic he's a mean player to boot) and I'm left even more confused by the odd example that pops once in a while.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Viginez said:


> how lame.
> that basically confirms their questionable behavior towards customers.
> stop complaining, fix the instrument and send it back to the happy customer. profit.



To be fair, we do only have OP's side of the story. Hell, who knows, maybe OP jacked the guitar up and just wanted to back out. Maybe he wanted to deliberately hurt the brand by fabricating all of this. I mean, we said it ourselves, who, as someone who works on guitars professionally, would let that guitar out the door. 

Problem is that it doesn't exactly matter what Kiesel says at this point because they've been ....ty at handling it. They've backed themselves into a corner where no matter what they do beyond a simple apology and an attempt to make it better will seem genuine. You don't ever publically call out your customers, even if they're being ....ty. You bend over, take it, and come out looking like the good guy and thus lose less business. 

So their side of the story is sort of irrelevant now, as they have now apparently publically mocked op. OP could still technically be hiding parts of the truth, but Kiesel still acted like dicks, and that's not wise in the long run.


----------



## GraemeH

BouhZik said:


> watching it right now on FB. the way he showed that neck that's for sure he's talking about this thread lol. so if it's camera trickery and impossible for the neck to not be flat in the pocket, what is wrong with op's guitar?



Simple way to sort that out. Measure the height of the fretboard above the top of the body at the back of the pocket, then at the front, with electronic calipers.

Photograph/video the measurements being taken.

If it's higher at the front then it's not "camera trickery", it's empirical evidence.


----------



## dmlinger

Lemons said:


> Jeffbro is Jeff Kiesel = Confirmed



Is Jeffbro Jeff Kiesel? I glanced through some of his old posts, but it doesn't seem like him. Maybe just a Kiesel fan? He seems to hype Ibanez quite a bit. Also sold a guitar a little while back and said he's from Louisiana.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Chokey Chicken said:


> To be fair, we do only have OP's side of the story. Hell, who knows, maybe OP jacked the guitar up and just wanted to back out. Maybe he wanted to deliberately hurt the brand by fabricating all of this. I mean, we said it ourselves, who, as someone who works on guitars professionally, would let that guitar out the door.
> 
> Problem is that it doesn't exactly matter what Kiesel says at this point because they've been ....ty at handling it. They've backed themselves into a corner where no matter what they do beyond a simple apology and an attempt to make it better will seem genuine. You don't ever publically call out your customers, even if they're being ....ty. You bend over, take it, and come out looking like the good guy and thus lose less business.
> 
> So their side of the story is sort of irrelevant now, as they have now apparently publically mocked op. OP could still technically be hiding parts of the truth, but Kiesel still acted like dicks, and that's not wise in the long run.



Expanding on this... 

Whenever I hear or read anything that is obviously aimed at garnering support, empathy, etc... I always have to consider that there are two sides to every story. Doesn't mean in the least, that OP didn't honestly feel as if he was disrespected or given the run-around or that the condition of his guitar wasn't being trivialized. I would say that he was indeed justified in feeling all of these things. But again... even if it's one of my best friends or family members... I always know that when they are speaking passionately about some interaction with another person... that there may quite possibly be a bit of a bias and therefore I might not be hearing the whole story verbatim. It's to be expected... especially when trying to convince others of the legitimacy of their woes. I do indeed think that OP was treated poorly throughout this situation though... regardless of whether the details of the correspondence was word-for-word accurate. 

Outside of all of that, I also over the past couple years, have felt more and more that Jeff is simply one of those guys that has gotten a little overly consumed with his own ego. If you were to cut SSO out the picture entirely, then I would say that probably the majority of Kiesel's customer base and loyal fans have served to elevate his ego to very dangerous levels. I've seen it before with plenty of people that for one reason or another sort of live life feeling that they are above other people in one regard or another. Even [some of] the people that Jeff surrounds himself with, may be very likely becoming more like him. That's just how it is as everyone knows. When you associate with someone all day/ every day.. some of their narcissistic tendencies are bound to rub off on you and that may be what's happening with some of his team. 

I do think that it would serve the company "better" in the long run, if they were to somehow develop some humility and gain more sincere appreciation for their customers but I guess that as long as they don't feel any significant damage to their rep and as long as they don't see a massive decline in their orders, things will continue as they are now. How bad these kinds of threads will actually hurt them is anyone's guess but if Kiesel does in fact perceive these kinds of things as "no big deal", as "laughable", or as "BS", then that's just a company begging to be knocked down a few pegs at some point. Obviously there is no one man that is above taking a hard look in the mirror and reevaluating the way that he treats those that had a hand in getting him to where he is.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Nour Ayasso said:


> Paying over a grand and waiting over two years for a beautiful instrument that doesn't perform correctly is not worth the wait.



did you not see the guitar I posted in that post? that's the one I'm talking about, not OP's guitar. the guy waited 26 weeks for his vader because of the slanted duncans taking forever to get installed/made. maybe next time you should re-read the post you're replying to before typing.


----------



## yellowv

I'm not going to read through this whole thread, but I will say your experience exactly mirrors mine with Mike Jones. I had a build that went back last year. It shipped just before NAMM and went back right after. Every time I contacted Mike Jones, which was seldom, I got the same attitude. Not surprising. Cause after I went over his head I got the same attitude from Jeff Kiesel. I would never give them another penny. One thing I will say is that if you simply must buy a Kiesel and can't be talked out of it don't do it anywhere near the NAMM show.


----------



## MetalHead40

I understand completely that people are going to question the accuracy of my claims and fully anticipate and accept that. I'll say this however, what possible motive would I have to attempt to tarnish Kiesel's reputation and fabricate part of my claims regarding this incident. 

I own a Carvin ST300c which I love and play more than any other guitar I own or have owned in the past, so I decided it was time for another Carvin. Carvin was done/gone. So, I decided to give Kiesel a try. I ordered, gave them a $300 dollar deposit to start my build, wait several months while making payments on that $300, pay them in full when I receive word its complete/ready to ship, receive the instrument I spent months dreaming about and in the end have issues in which I politely asked them to rectify. 

What part of that seems like I'm out to destroy Kiesel's reputation? 

None of this was my doing, this is simply a company that chose to let their ego override what should have been a simple fix, a fix that could have worked positively in their favor by just taking care of a paying customer. 

I'll say this once here just for clarity: 

The correspondence that I reproduced in my original post of this thread regarding my conversations with all Kiesel employees is 100% word for word direct quoting. 

The photos I posted are simply pictures I took upon taking the guitar out of the case for the first time. No "camera trickery" involved here.

As stated several times already, I was absolutely ecstatic regarding the aesthetics of the guitar, was impressed by the overall fit to finish, was thrilled with the fundamental tone regarding pickups and wood combination, loved the feel of the body shape and tung oiled back of neck. 

I wanted nothing more than to keep the guitar if and only if Kiesel was willing to correct the bridge saddle issues I had with that instrument. They were not willing to do that. They sent it back to me saying that they found nothing wrong and that all they did was adjust the truss rod.


----------



## laxu

Giving the benefit to doubt that the camera lens is causing some distortion there. I do believe that on a CNC machine it should not be possible to make a neck pocket that slants the wrong way. Perhaps on the neck itself it would be possible.

When I first saw the pic I tried comparing it to my Kiesel AM7 and in the exact same angle can't reproduce it. In that angle the neck sits flat, pickups sit low and bridge saddles are at a normal height.

Whatever the case, Kiesel handled it poorly. Calling OP out as trying to be misleading is just throwing more wood in the flames. They could've just said that it was maybe caused by camera angle and leave it at that.


----------



## bostjan

Kiesel's public responses to their customers and potential customers speaks volumes. To me, they've lost 90% of the credibility they once had as a guitar manufacturer. So, when someone on the forum who is at least a credible forumite, for whatever that's worth, posts a story like this, which is hearsay, but also falls right in line with other stories other forumites have posted, it catches my attention. And when Kiesel responds by calling the OP a doodyhead tattletale and stomps their feet and threatens to tell mom, they just convince me that the story is most likely true. YMMV, of course, and everyone is entitled to a personal opinion.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I completely believe what OP posted.. although I didn't necessarily interpret it as being word for word. If that correspondence is verbatim, then they really do have a good deal of audacity and disregard for customer service. That's honestly not too surprising after hearing this kind of thing more than a few times already. Regardless... Some people sincerely need to take a good look at themselves and reevaluate how they do business. Alienating any part of one's customer base due to ego, positive sales figures, not giving a damn, etc, etc... is a piss poor business practice and it's one that can definitely come back to bite you in the ass. Again.. I don't see his arrogance changing unless sales begin to decline or until someone connected with the company's financial profile comes in and say's "enough is enough". Whether humility is perceived or actual, high-level representatives of companies need to show that they care about their products as well as their relationships with their customers after the sale. Seems more and more as if this ethic has seriously slipped away from them.. for whatever reason(s). I'm in your corner, OP. Glad that you posted about it and happy that you were able to get some degree of resolve.


----------



## technomancer

diagrammatiks said:


> lol did jeffbro get banned for this thread? i feel like this has been the most reasonable kiesel thread in history.





marcwormjim said:


> I hope it's only temporary - For as much as he deserved a time-out, his nonsense was also hilarious.



Nothing to do with this thread, IIRC it's a 3 day


----------



## oracles

feraledge said:


> If I was Perry, I'd be offended, but Perry seems to like him, so not worth making a stink about.



My favourite part of NAMM this year was Jeff PAYING for a photo op with Perry.


----------



## feraledge

oracles said:


> My favourite part of NAMM this year was Jeff PAYING for a photo op with Perry.



This might be the best piece of information to come of all of this. That is hilarious. Any chance you know how much?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

oracles said:


> My favourite part of NAMM this year was Jeff PAYING for a photo op with Perry.



where'd you hear that?


----------



## Hollowway

yellowv said:


> I'm not going to read through this whole thread, but I will say your experience exactly mirrors mine with Mike Jones. I had a build that went back last year. It shipped just before NAMM and went back right after. Every time I contacted Mike Jones, which was seldom, I got the same attitude. Not surprising. Cause after I went over his head I got the same attitude from Jeff Kiesel. I would never give them another penny. One thing I will say is that if you simply must buy a Kiesel and can't be talked out of it don't do it anywhere near the NAMM show.



And aren't you the one who wanted a 27" V from them? Or am I mixing you up with another BBS member over there?

Speaking of which, even the loyal BBS members are getting a little less enthusiastic about the company because of all of the poor customer service, and the lack of addressing QC issues. Myself included.


----------



## Seventhwave

Cutting edge....

Can I get binding yet?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

MetalHead40 said:


> I understand completely that people are going to question the accuracy of my claims and fully anticipate and accept that. I'll say this however, what possible motive would I have to attempt to tarnish Kiesel's reputation and fabricate part of my claims regarding this incident.
> 
> I own a Carvin ST300c which I love and play more than any other guitar I own or have owned in the past, so I decided it was time for another Carvin. Carvin was done/gone. So, I decided to give Kiesel a try. I ordered, gave them a $300 dollar deposit to start my build, wait several months while making payments on that $300, pay them in full when I receive word its complete/ready to ship, receive the instrument I spent months dreaming about and in the end have issues in which I politely asked them to rectify.
> 
> What part of that seems like I'm out to destroy Kiesel's reputation?
> 
> None of this was my doing, this is simply a company that chose to let their ego override what should have been a simple fix, a fix that could have worked positively in their favor by just taking care of a paying customer.
> 
> I'll say this once here just for clarity:
> 
> The correspondence that I reproduced in my original post of this thread regarding my conversations with all Kiesel employees is 100% word for word direct quoting.
> 
> The photos I posted are simply pictures I took upon taking the guitar out of the case for the first time. No "camera trickery" involved here.
> 
> As stated several times already, I was absolutely ecstatic regarding the aesthetics of the guitar, was impressed by the overall fit to finish, was thrilled with the fundamental tone regarding pickups and wood combination, loved the feel of the body shape and tung oiled back of neck.
> 
> I wanted nothing more than to keep the guitar if and only if Kiesel was willing to correct the bridge saddle issues I had with that instrument. They were not willing to do that. They sent it back to me saying that they found nothing wrong and that all they did was adjust the truss rod.



To clarify, I didn't mean to imply you were lying. Just that even if you/anyone was, they never handle it properly and wouldn't be trusted regardless of any public excuse they gave. 

It was in their best interest to, even if they felt justified to do otherwise, just be polite and handle everything with discretion. Acting like dicks and calling you a liar publicly is the exact opposite of what a company should do. Imagine if Chevrolet publicly .... on a customer who bought a brand new car to find out that the QC wasn't remotely close to acceptable.


----------



## bostjan

Chokey Chicken said:


> Imagine if Chevrolet publicly .... on a customer who bought a brand new car to find out that the QC wasn't remotely close to acceptable.



Interesting example. Talk about a company who has had some QC issues lately. Yet they've been quite polite with me, personally, and I have yet to hear a story about awful customer service representation, despite the stress the company must be facing lately.

I think I'm not alone in my assessment that Kiesel's customer service is the real topic here. If they take to social media to be childish about this complaint, then they are really only proving the point made against them.


----------



## MetalHead40

Chokey Chicken said:


> To clarify, I didn't mean to imply you were lying. Just that even if you/anyone was, they never handle it properly and wouldn't be trusted regardless of any public excuse they gave.
> 
> It was in their best interest to, even if they felt justified to do otherwise, just be polite and handle everything with discretion. Acting like dicks and calling you a liar publicly is the exact opposite of what a company should do. Imagine if Chevrolet publicly .... on a customer who bought a brand new car to find out that the QC wasn't remotely close to acceptable.



No worries at all man, its all good  Its a he said she said situation and people are gonna believe who they believe, which is totally cool. I just wanted to put up a one time statement reiterating my stance, my claims, and my position. I just told my story and delivered the facts and from there everyone's gonna form there own opinion about my story which is the way it ought to be


----------



## yellowv

Hollowway said:


> And aren't you the one who wanted a 27" V from them? Or am I mixing you up with another BBS member over there?
> 
> Speaking of which, even the loyal BBS members are getting a little less enthusiastic about the company because of all of the poor customer service, and the lack of addressing QC issues. Myself included.



Nope. Not even a BBS member. Mine was a Vader that had numerous finish issues as well as crooked side dots. It went back and took 2 months to be refinished. Every few weeks when I asked for an update I would get an attitude like I was bothering them. Jeff Kiesel himself told me that asking for updates only slowed down the process. Mind you this was like 5 months after I ordered the guitar and still didn't have it. I finally told them I would like to exchange the guitar for an in stock model and pay the difference, as I just didn't even want it anymore. They literally raised the price of the in stock guitar by $400 while I was on hold. I then asked for a refund and was given the no refunds because of an option 50 BS. I ended up getting a refund after starting a social media ....storm. You would think Jeff would learn by now that just admitting he made a mistake and taking care of the customer when he screws up is far less expensive in the long run than every time one of these threads pops up.


----------



## MetalHead40

yellowv said:


> Nope. Not even a BBS member. Mine was a Vader that had numerous finish issues as well as crooked side dots. It went back and took 2 months to be refinished. Every few weeks when I asked for an update I would get an attitude like I was bothering them. Jeff Kiesel himself told me that asking for updates only slowed down the process. Mind you this was like 5 months after I ordered the guitar and still didn't have it. I finally told them I would like to exchange the guitar for an in stock model and pay the difference, as I just didn't even want it anymore. They literally raised the price of the in stock guitar by $400 while I was on hold. I then asked for a refund and was given the no refunds because of an option 50 BS. I ended up getting a refund after starting a social media ....storm. You would think Jeff would learn by now that just admitting he made a mistake and taking care of the customer when he screws up is far less expensive in the long run than every time one of these threads pops up.



"attitude like I was bothering them" is the exact feeling I got when dealing with them as well. Sounds like their ego is an ongoing and re-occurring theme that brings them head to head with some customers. I'm in the same camp as you in that it would be much easier and less damaging to the company to admit when your wrong and just work things out with your customers.


----------



## TheTrooper

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company, always making new specs happen
> 
> People are basically complaining that they don't make new features fast enough. I want this and I want that, you don't make it yet so I'm gonna get mad and trash the company...



Took the Mods 300 posts from this guy before banning it? LOL


----------



## xzacx

bostjan said:


> I think I'm not alone in my assessment that Kiesel's customer service is the real topic here. If they take to social media to be childish about this complaint, then they are really only proving the point made against them.



This is definitely the whole point. As unacceptable as that bridge is, it's a non-issue if they take care of it. Customer service IS marketing, every bit as much Kiesel's live videos. Brands that understand that can turn a negative situation into goodwill. 

Here's an example. My girl got me a pair of boots for Xmas. She'd called in to make sure they would be delivered on time and even paid for the faster shipping so there wouldn't be any doubts. Well, through no fault of the brand, Fedex didn't get it there until after Xmas. She felt horrible and called the brand she ordered from about it. It wasn't any big deal to me - I was excited to get anything and couldn't have cared less that they weren't on time, but she obviously wanted them there. Anyway, about a week later, a package showed up for her. She hadn't ordered anything and couldn't figure out what it could be. Along with a handwritten apology letter was a leather card holder that was currently being sold on their website for $350 as a gift. She appreciated the apology over the phone and wasn't wanting or expecting anything, but it was so above and beyond what was needed as a way of making amends. And again, it wasn't even their fault, it was 100% on Fedex. I'll definitely be buying from them in the future, A.) because I'm a fan of their products, and B.) because I appreciate how we were treated. 

Imagine the reaction if the OP would have come on here and said that for the trouble of his screwed up build, they offered him $200 in free options on a rebuild? How many more people would be considering a build after hearing that story than the way things did go?


----------



## MetalHead40

xzacx said:


> This is definitely the whole point. As unacceptable as that bridge is, it's a non-issue if they take care of it. Customer service IS marketing, every bit as much Kiesel's live videos. Brands that understand that can turn a negative situation into goodwill.
> 
> Here's an example. My girl got me a pair of boots for Xmas. She'd called in to make sure they would be delivered on time and even paid for the faster shipping so there wouldn't be any doubts. Well, through no fault of the brand, Fedex didn't get it there until after Xmas. She felt horrible and called the brand she ordered from about it. It wasn't any big deal to me - I was excited to get anything and couldn't have cared less that they weren't on time, but she obviously wanted them there. Anyway, about a week later, a package showed up for her. She hadn't ordered anything and couldn't figure out what it could be. Along with a handwritten apology letter was a leather card holder that was currently being sold on their website for $350 as a gift. She appreciated the apology over the phone and wasn't wanting or expecting anything, but it was so above and beyond what was needed as a way of making amends. And again, it wasn't even their fault, it was 100% on Fedex. I'll definitely be buying from them in the future, A.) because I'm a fan of their products, and B.) because I appreciate how we were treated.
> 
> Imagine the reaction if the OP would have come on here and said that for the trouble of his screwed up build, they offered him $200 in free options on a rebuild? How many more people would be considering a build after hearing that story than the way things did go?




An RT member just posted a similar scenario, and I responded to him saying that I had just had more or less the exact conversation with my wife last night.

I elaborated on his initial comment, which I completely agreed with, by saying regardless of who's right and who's wrong, the VP of a company and a true business man would have taken this whole thing and used it to their advantage to show they want resolution and a happy customer. That would have been a display of integrity which would have been a step towards solidifying trust and helping to reverse the negativity that's been brewed here. That said, I would not have accepted such an offer, but it would have been a smart business decision and a more honorable display of character on their part none the less.


----------



## A-Branger

oracles said:


> My favourite part of NAMM this year was Jeff PAYING for a photo op with Perry.



where you get that info from?  and the why Perry would charge him for that when they are mates?, or to anyone really?

if not the Ormsby crew actually went to the Kiesel factory before NAMM for a tour and meet up


----------



## Vletrmx

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel is already by far the most cutting edge company, always making new specs happen
> 
> People are basically complaining that they don't make new features fast enough. I want this and I want that, you don't make it yet so I'm gonna get mad and trash the company...



Does your name rhyme with Deaf Weasel by any chance?


----------



## Nour Ayasso

KnightBrolaire said:


> did you not see the guitar I posted in that post? that's the one I'm talking about, not OP's guitar. the guy waited 26 weeks for his vader because of the slanted duncans taking forever to get installed/made. maybe next time you should re-read the post you're replying to before typing.



It's not hard to see the reference to OP's experience, as well as custom guitar experiences in general, implied in my very simple comment . . .

Anyway . . Has Kiesel always been like this? I ask because I haven't followed Kiesel as much as you guys, I recall when they were still half Carvin everything seemed cool and there wasn't consistent tension between them and customers. ?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Nour Ayasso said:


> Has Kiesel always been like this?



Not really. 

In the beginning things seemed really positive. It still felt like the same Carvin we had known. 

It's only in the last year or so that things have started to go downhill as far as customer issues and the very poor response to them. 

Carvin was never perfect. Of the six I owned most had some small flaw, mostly finish issues or slight wood imperfections, but everything was always handled well on the customer service side and the prices were lower than they are now and the options in the market weren't as plentiful so it was more "acceptable" to most. 

Kiesel desperately wants to be a world class custom shop in the image of Jackson CS or Suhr, but they're just not there. They can kick and scream and push an image all they want, it's not going to make their product any better or their image more grand. 

I saw them going down this route when Jeff started employing people like Zack Khoury.


----------



## hardvalve

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not really.
> 
> In the beginning things seemed really positive. It still felt like the same Carvin we had known.
> 
> It's only in the last year or so that things have started to go downhill as far as customer issues and the very poor response to them.
> 
> Carvin was never perfect. Of the six I owned most had some small flaw, mostly finish issues or slight wood imperfections, but everything was always handled well on the customer service side and the prices were lower than they are now and the options in the market weren't as plentiful so it was more "acceptable" to most.
> 
> Kiesel desperately wants to be a world class custom shop in the image of Jackson CS or Suhr, but they're just not there. They can kick and scream and push an image all they want, it's not going to make their product any better or their image more grand.
> 
> I saw them going down this route when Jeff started employing people like Zack Khoury.



I was onboard with Kiesel until dealing with him.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Hollowway said:


> And aren't you the one who wanted a 27" V from them? Or am I mixing you up with another BBS member over there?
> 
> Speaking of which, even the loyal BBS members are getting a little less enthusiastic about the company because of all of the poor customer service, and the lack of addressing QC issues. Myself included.



think you are mixing him up with FlyingV. I havent posted on the bbs in about a year, because all these things lately is just depressing. Plus i'm all aboard the Aristides bandwagon now (less than a month now hopefully for delivery of my 070!)

anyways.. I've been a longtime Carvin supporter/fanboy since 2008, pretty vocal on here for the first few issues (from what I heard from the "other side" on yellowv's story, It seemed to be missing lots of details when told from Mike/Jeff's perspective) but it is disappointing seeing a company I loved so much completely turn into something else lately. Even I can't defend them anymore, despite like others saying, wondering about the legitimacy of these posts (really.. what company would ever ship a guitar like that. it just doesnt make sense) - I've have relatively good service for 4 years with Mike Jones, and amazing customer service with Chris Hong. I dunno. I didn't really dig my Kiesel CT7 or Vader last year as much as my Carvin ST300, but that ST300 is my barometer for every guitar and will be with me for life. 

Guess all era's have to end eventually.


----------



## Hollowway

yellowv said:


> Nope. Not even a BBS member. Mine was a Vader that had numerous finish issues as well as crooked side dots. It went back and took 2 months to be refinished. Every few weeks when I asked for an update I would get an attitude like I was bothering them. Jeff Kiesel himself told me that asking for updates only slowed down the process. Mind you this was like 5 months after I ordered the guitar and still didn't have it. I finally told them I would like to exchange the guitar for an in stock model and pay the difference, as I just didn't even want it anymore. They literally raised the price of the in stock guitar by $400 while I was on hold. I then asked for a refund and was given the no refunds because of an option 50 BS. I ended up getting a refund after starting a social media ....storm. You would think Jeff would learn by now that just admitting he made a mistake and taking care of the customer when he screws up is far less expensive in the long run than every time one of these threads pops up.



Oh, yeah, I remember that. So many customer service screw ups and just generally combativeness personality issues there. I also have gotten the "why are you interrupting my work" attitude when calling. As I said before, I called to ask a few questions and put in a custom order a couple of months ago, and after having been given a ....ty attitude, I just said thank you, and hung up. Decided not to put an order in.


----------



## zimbloth

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not really.
> 
> In the beginning things seemed really positive. It still felt like the same Carvin we had known.
> 
> It's only in the last year or so that things have started to go downhill as far as customer issues and the very poor response to them.
> 
> Carvin was never perfect. Of the six I owned most had some small flaw, mostly finish issues or slight wood imperfections, but everything was always handled well on the customer service side and the prices were lower than they are now and the options in the market weren't as plentiful so it was more "acceptable" to most.
> 
> Kiesel desperately wants to be a world class custom shop in the image of Jackson CS or Suhr, but they're just not there. They can kick and scream and push an image all they want, it's not going to make their product any better or their image more grand.
> 
> I saw them going down this route when Jeff started employing people like Zack Khoury.



I agree completely with just about all your sentiments. That's been my experience with Carvin also. I own 2 that I like a LOT, but several others I had to send back due to various issues over the years. Carvins always been a solid brand, but not on the level of a PRS or Framus or what have you, IMO. People just need realistic expectations. 

The only part I don't agree with is bashing Zack. He hasn't worked for Kiesel for what, over a year now? Jeff is the one acting like a jackass in videos, talking smack about other brands and artists, etc. I'm pretty sure Zack just did what Jeff asked him to. Its really up to Jeff and the Carvin guys to keep the ball rolling. It's the job of a social media and A&R guy to hype the brand, it's the job of the manufacturer to hold their end of the deal. 

Just my take. I don't have a horse in this fight. Always a bummer to see stuff like this though. We all make mistakes, but you have to try to make things right.


----------



## Rezamatix

zimbloth said:


> I agree completely with just about all your sentiments. That's been my experience with Carvin also. I own 2 that I like a LOT, but several others I had to send back due to various issues over the years. Carvins always been a solid brand, but not on the level of a PRS or Framus or what have you, IMO. People just need realistic expectations.
> 
> The only part I don't agree with is bashing Zack. He hasn't worked for Kiesel for what, over a year now? Jeff is the one acting like a jackass in videos, talking smack about other brands and artists, etc. I'm pretty sure Zack just did what Jeff asked him to. Its really up to Jeff and the Carvin guys to keep the ball rolling. It's the job of a social media and A&R guy to hype the brand, it's the job of the manufacturer to hold their end of the deal.
> 
> Just my take. I don't have a horse in this fight. Always a bummer to see stuff like this though. We all make mistakes, but you have to try to make things right.



Bashing Zach is poor form.


----------



## dhgrind

all i have to say is, this again ? stop buying from this sub-par "custom" hack shop and either figure out the specs you like in a GC or order a real custom.


----------



## Nour Ayasso

MaxOfMetal said:


> I saw them going down this route when Jeff started employing people like Zack Khoury.


Thanks for the insight man, that's why I dig this forum it's like wikipedia but irl for guitars  It's a shame to know that everything has gone downhill over social media relations and bad builds . . .


hardvalve said:


> I was onboard with Kiesel until dealing with him.


As to Zack . . I looked him up and ironically found your old thread, anything you can add without breaking rules? Or pm? I don't see any relation between him and Kiesel either


----------



## MaxOfMetal

zimbloth said:


> The only part I don't agree with is bashing Zack. He hasn't worked for Kiesel for what, over a year now? Jeff is the one acting like a jackass in videos, talking smack about other brands and artists, etc. I'm pretty sure Zack just did what Jeff asked him to. Its really up to Jeff and the Carvin guys to keep the ball rolling. It's the job of a social media and A&R guy to hype the brand, it's the job of the manufacturer to hold their end of the deal.





Rezamatix said:


> Bashing Zach is poor form.



If I had said:



MaxOfMetal said:


> I saw them going down this route when Jeff started employing people who have been banned from a good portion of the online guitar community for childish drama, shady deals and overall unsavory behavior.


 
Would you have known exactly who I was talking about? If so, perhaps it's not "bashing" but stating facts.  

But lets not dwell. Jeff needed very little help in getting the reputation he currently has.


----------



## yellowv

SnowfaLL said:


> think you are mixing him up with FlyingV. I havent posted on the bbs in about a year, because all these things lately is just depressing. Plus i'm all aboard the Aristides bandwagon now (less than a month now hopefully for delivery of my 070!)
> 
> anyways.. I've been a longtime Carvin supporter/fanboy since 2008, pretty vocal on here for the first few issues (from what I heard from the "other side" on yellowv's story, It seemed to be missing lots of details when told from Mike/Jeff's perspective) but it is disappointing seeing a company I loved so much completely turn into something else lately. Even I can't defend them anymore, despite like others saying, wondering about the legitimacy of these posts (really.. what company would ever ship a guitar like that. it just doesnt make sense) - I've have relatively good service for 4 years with Mike Jones, and amazing customer service with Chris Hong. I dunno. I didn't really dig my Kiesel CT7 or Vader last year as much as my Carvin ST300, but that ST300 is my barometer for every guitar and will be with me for life.
> 
> Guess all era's have to end eventually.



I can assure you everything I have ever said was true.


----------



## KnightBrolaire




----------



## TheTrooper

MaxOfMetal said:


> .....I saw them going down this route when Jeff started employing people like Zack Khoury.




Don't know what part Zack had in the Kiesel family, but all the (few) times I spoke to him, asked a question regarding Music Gear and stuff like that, He was very cool and very polite, probably the only one that I felt wasn't "shady"


----------



## Zado

TheTrooper said:


> Don't know what part Zack had in the Kiesel family, but all the (few) times I spoke to him, asked a question regarding Music Gear and stuff like that, He was very cool and very polite, probably the only one that I felt wasn't "shady"



I remember him talking in a facebook group about his having certain guitars considered trendy at the time (Aristides above all) and finding them sterile sounding or lacking quality, and his happiness with Kiesel guitars, miles above the other brands according to what he said.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

After messing around in preview I don't see the huge tilt people are talking about, the angle certainly gives an illusion but try tilting the pic and holding two cards against it and you will see what I mean. I'm getting a small increase which could be the angle, I don't know though. Anyone else with one of whatever this model is?







Disclaimer: Never owned or played a Kiesel/Carvin.


----------



## canuck brian

laxu said:


> Giving the benefit to doubt that the camera lens is causing some distortion there. I do believe that on a CNC machine it should not be possible to make a neck pocket that slants the wrong way. Perhaps on the neck itself it would be possible.



If the bit isn't 100% locked into that CNC spindle, it'll slip and cause that.

Source: been there done that.


----------



## BigViolin

Is there any way that debris can build up under where the body clamps to the table? I'm not familiar with their particular cnc, but not having a flat clamping surface can wreak havoc. 

Either way it should have been handled...er, uh better.


----------



## A-Branger

Im still betting it to the machine operator input the wrong CNC bridge program for the neck, like a TOM bridge neck pocket.... or it was written in the specs wrong.

reason why the high saddles

or, maybe during the clear coat stage, they didnt masked the neck pocket??


----------



## laxu

Lorcan Ward said:


> After messing around in preview I don't see the huge tilt people are talking about, the angle certainly gives an illusion but try tilting the pic and holding two cards against it and you will see what I mean. I'm getting a small increase which could be the angle, I don't know though. Anyone else with one of whatever this model is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: Never owned or played a Kiesel/Carvin.



I have a Kiesel AM7. On mine that area has no visible angle and the neck sits a bit lower in the pocket. Neck angle is hard to tell because a degree or two can make a huge difference. If you have ever seen a Gibson with a bridge that is very high off the top, that's the difference between 2 and 4 degrees of neck angle. Around 2 degrees being proper where the TOM sits very close to the top but still has adjustment range up and down.


----------



## hairychris

laxu said:


> I have a Kiesel AM7. On mine that area has no visible angle and the neck sits a bit lower in the pocket. Neck angle is hard to tell because a degree or two can make a huge difference. If you have ever seen a Gibson with a bridge that is very high off the top, that's the difference between 2 and 4 degrees of neck angle. Around 2 degrees being proper where the TOM sits very close to the top but still has adjustment range up and down.



This is why I think that the neck pocket was cut for a TOM but fitted with a Hipshot.

With a Hipshot or similar hardtail Strat-type bridge, the fretboard should sit *just* above the body. Too much wood in these pictures so pocket too shallow but could be OK with a non-recessed TOM as strings sit higher from body.



Whatever it is the crappy service seems to be the big takeaway in this case.


----------



## laxu

hairychris said:


> This is why I think that the neck pocket was cut for a TOM but fitted with a Hipshot.
> 
> With a Hipshot or similar hardtail Strat-type bridge, the fretboard should sit *just* above the body. Too much wood in these pictures so pocket too shallow but could be OK with a non-recessed TOM as strings sit higher from body.



Kiesel actually recesses TOM bridges to the body so they don't need any neck angle and that bridge option is not available with this body type. Could have been a mistake done on the neck though, making it taller than it should be where it connects to the body.


----------



## MrYakob

A-Branger said:


> Im still betting it to the machine operator input the wrong CNC bridge program for the neck, like a TOM bridge neck pocket.... or it was written in the specs wrong.



I could be wrong, but I believe the neck angle for a TOM would actually be the reverse of what this is with the neck tilting back rather than forward as it appears to be in the picture.


----------



## oversteve

guys, you're arguing and trying to measure an angle on initially distorted picture, of course these 2 lines won't be parallel


----------



## A-Branger

yeah you cant meassure the angle in that pic. Does anyone own or have a pic of a similar model? Just to see how deep the neck should sit on it or not?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The neck does sit quite high in the pocket.


----------



## TemjinStrife

canuck brian said:


> If the bit isn't 100% locked into that CNC spindle, it'll slip and cause that.
> 
> Source: been there done that.



Yeah, except you'd never let one go out the door like that!


----------



## Dcm81

Lorcan Ward said:


> The neck does sit quite high in the pocket.



Wow! Anyone notice that the saddles seem completely maxed out on ALL of those guitars


----------



## Señor Voorhees

hairychris said:


> This is why I think that the neck pocket was cut for a TOM but fitted with a Hipshot.
> 
> With a Hipshot or similar hardtail Strat-type bridge, the fretboard should sit *just* above the body. Too much wood in these pictures so pocket too shallow but could be OK with a non-recessed TOM as strings sit higher from body.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever it is the crappy service seems to be the big takeaway in this case.




People need to stop saying it looks like it was routed for a tune-o-matic. lol

Tune-o-matic bridges by default are high. This means you compensate by making the part of the neck nearest the bridge is high. The neck tilts BACKWARDS, not forwards. If this was routed for a tune-o-matic, then the angle is backwards and done wrong anyway and would result in high action at the highest fret as well. 

It's not routed for a tune-o-matic, that's not even close to what's wrong with it. 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=2373613&postcount=1

Look at the angle of the strings in that first picture. THAT is the angle the neck needs to make so it's a straight shot from the bridge saddle to the nut. Now imagine if the neck angle was reversed and the part closest to the bridge was shallow while the part further away was higher.


----------



## davedeath

Dcm81 said:


> Wow! Anyone notice that the saddles seem completely maxed out on ALL of those guitars



Any kiesel players want to comment? I can see it in my phone no less


----------



## downburst82

Dcm81 said:


> Wow! Anyone notice that the saddles seem completely maxed out on ALL of those guitars



Yup you beat me to it!

On all except 1 it appears pretty unacceptable. I've never had a guitar with a flatmount bridge require that kind of saddle angle


----------



## TheGuitarPit

So the neck pocket is too shallow? Not enough wood to cut it deeper? Seems like an easy fix in the design...wonder why they decided to go this route. My Vader saddles sit nice and flat.


----------



## endmysuffering

The roast of kiesel guitar (2017)


----------



## A-Branger

Señor Voorhees;4719102 said:


> People need to stop saying it looks like it was routed for a tune-o-matic. lol
> 
> Tune-o-matic bridges by default are high. This means you compensate by making the part of the neck nearest the bridge is high. The neck tilts BACKWARDS, not forwards. If this was routed for a tune-o-matic, then the angle is backwards and done wrong anyway and would result in high action at the highest fret as well.
> 
> It's not routed for a tune-o-matic, that's not even close to what's wrong with it.
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=2373613&postcount=1
> 
> Look at the angle of the strings in that first picture. THAT is the angle the neck needs to make so it's a straight shot from the bridge saddle to the nut. Now imagine if the neck angle was reversed and the part closest to the bridge was shallow while the part further away was higher.



if the OP guitar had the neck tilting forward like you are saying its he would have the same issue I had with my Ibanez basss. Having the truss rod adjusted, I had massive action towards the higher frets only and the bridge saddles were all the way down, as the higher fret part of the neck was sitting lower in the body than the bridge. For the OP the bridge saddles were maxout, trying to raise the strings to reach the heaight of the end of the neck to avoid any fretbuzz. IF his neck was tilted it was tilted back



Dcm81 said:


> Wow! Anyone notice that the saddles seem completely maxed out on ALL of those guitars



 I notice all of them are far too high, not sure if maxed out tho, but def really high. Just take a look at the sadles vs the edge of the bridge. The saddles should sit nicely on the bridge not THAT high


so we seem we solve the OP problem. THere wasnt any problem at all 

like it seems this model the neck sits pretty high making the bridge saddles really high, but the OP got the end of the stick, like some guitars might come a bit extra high or extra low, he jsut got the "worse case scenario" of them. So in the Kiesel eyes they didnt do anything wrong, and the guitar was fine.

which raise two questions for me:

-Why Kiesel design a guitar with such a high bride saddles, why not take couple of mm of the neck to make everything sit like ti should?

-With so many NGD of this model in here, why no-one else has complain about the high bridge saddles?


----------



## exo

I can definitely see that most of those pics show the Hipshot saddles are REALLY high. Anyone know WHICH Hipshot they're using, aren't there 2 different baseplate thicknesses?


Also: those two Aries with the black tops/neon backs? Those things are freaking HOT! Finally found a bevel top guitar I LOVE the looks of........


----------



## A-Branger

so I had a quick google look at some guitars and not all of the one who uses hipshot have the saddles flush with the edge of the bridge, so its normal to have them higher.

And from these photos seems like half of them look "right", like maybe a bit too much but still on a "normal"-ish setting, but that 3rd pic down (the brown one) is def too high

still no excuse as the OP case


----------



## Shask

I have a SCB6 with a Hipshot. The saddles are a little high, and not flat. They stick up some above the edge, however, they are no where near maxed out like the original guitar in this thread.


----------



## MetalHead40

exo said:


> I can definitely see that most of those pics show the Hipshot saddles are REALLY high. Anyone know WHICH Hipshot they're using, aren't there 2 different baseplate thicknesses?
> 
> 
> Also: those two Aries with the black tops/neon backs? Those things are freaking HOT! Finally found a bevel top guitar I LOVE the looks of........



The .125" baseplate.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, the saddles should be at a height where they can be lowered for much lower action, or raised for much higher. In these pics it looks like they generally do have the bridge too low or the neck pocket too high. There is no design reason to have to prop the saddles up so high just to get a low action.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Tried to find more pics of the bridges for comparison 













*god that black with the orange bevel is awesome'


----------



## SpaceDock

Wow, I really can't believe all,of these have the same design flaw. I think having a different neck angle or even a bridge spacer would be better than maxed out saddles. That said, I guarantee this is the fault of cnc limitations in pocket depth/angle restrictions.


----------



## noise in my mind

I have a hipshot on my carvin dc7x. The saddles seem about right, but this was before the kiesel take over and factory change.


----------



## budda

SpaceDock said:


> That said, I guarantee this is the fault of cnc limitations in pocket depth/angle restrictions.



Do other builders who use these bridges have the same issue?

Legitimate question - I don't follow all these companies.


----------



## pondman

I made the saddle height mistake once on a build. I obviously never made the same mistake again. Its a bit weird that they do it it that way, maybe they have a reason of some kind


----------



## FrznTek

budda said:


> Do other builders who use these bridges have the same issue?
> 
> Legitimate question - I don't follow all these companies.



No, my Schecter KM7 is fine. (also uses a Hipshot fixed bridge)

IMO, the neck sits too high off the body. It probably works fine with a TOM or a Floyd Rose since they can have the height of the bridge adjusted easily, but not with a fixed bridge like the Hipshot.

I feel sorry for the people who got them like the OP, but either didn't know better or are just stuck with them.


----------



## Thrashman

Wried thing to do, the neck sits high in the pocket and thus also making the heel bigger, not something I'd usually expect to see on a high end guitar as it sacrifices comfort.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

The Aries we have has a normal saddle height. You have plenty of room to lower or raise the action. Not sure what, if any, difference there is. Most of the pictures shown aren't entirely clear. I can't make out if they're actually high or not. I doubt it since a lot have been sold and OP's is the first I've heard this complaint about.


----------



## Thrashman

^ What we're pointing out is that the neck pocket is not very deep/the neck heels are big which makes the neck/fretboard sit higher in relation to the body than what is normally seen.

This sets the strings further from the body than usual with the hipshot bridges and with the .125 hipshots you need to raise the saddles a bit higher than usual and also gives a feel more akin to that of a TOM bridge than a hardtail which usually feels very smooth because of the minimal gap between strings/body.


----------



## jerm

Don't know if they've changed anything with the height of their necks/saddle relationship but here's my Carvin DC700 for comparison built in 2014. (the bridge position is extremely comfortable) 







OP's is definitely too high.


----------



## mnemonic

^as that DC7 is neck through, you can see the neck is quite a bit lower in relation to the body. The fretboard is very close to the body, so the bridge works perfect there. 


If they're using the .125 bridges, at least a simple fix is to switch to the .175. And if they're using the .175, the quickest/easiest/cheapest solution would be to add a spacer under the bridge, basically shim the whole thing up so its taller, so the saddles can be set lower. 

I have a .175 hipshot on a hardtail Strat, the height is like this: 

Bass side:





Treble side: 





Top view:





For what it's worth, I like kind of 'moderately high' action on my low strings, and moderate action on the high strings, so I can wail on the strings without buzz. I can comfortably put the action quite a bit lower for 'fast, low action', just not my preference. 

On my bridge, the Middle strings are about half-way-down on the grub screws, so still tons of room to make it higher if needed. 


Just posting this as a reference to how my hipshot fits.


----------



## MetalHead40

mnemonic said:


> ^as that DC7 is neck through, you can see the neck is quite a bit lower in relation to the body. The fretboard is very close to the body, so the bridge works perfect there.
> 
> 
> If they're using the .125 bridges, at least a simple fix is to switch to the .175. And if they're using the .175, the quickest/easiest/cheapest solution would be to add a spacer under the bridge, basically shim the whole thing up so its taller, so the saddles can be set lower.
> 
> I have a .175 hipshot on a hardtail Strat, the height is like this:
> 
> Bass side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treble side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, I like kind of 'moderately high' action on my low strings, and moderate action on the high strings, so I can wail on the strings without buzz. I can comfortably put the action quite a bit lower for 'fast, low action', just not my preference.
> 
> On my bridge, the Middle strings are about half-way-down on the grub screws, so still tons of room to make it higher if needed.
> 
> 
> Just posting this as a reference to how my hipshot fits.




Replacing the .125" Hipshot, which is what they used, with the .175" Hipshot was exactly what I asked them to do in the letter I sent in with the guitar when it was returned the first time to be looked at. They had no interest in entertaining that request.


----------



## GraemeH

Using a taller bridge base plate would sort the saddles being up at a ridiculous angle, but if you still can't get the action lower/more even over the frets without buzzing it won't fix the issue will it? Just changes how much of that ridiculous height is coming from the saddle angle and how much from the base plate.

The real issue looks/sounds like it's the sheer height above the frets the strings have to be.


----------



## DudeManBrother

If my understanding of this entire debacle is correct, when OP received the guitar it was buzzing like crazy, so he raised the action a little and it didn't fix the problem, so he raised it until the buzz went away and snapped that pic to show how high the saddles had to be to get rid of the buzz. It wasn't sent out of the factory like that. Now, according to Kiesel, all that was required was a truss rod adjustment, which could be true. If the neck is back bowed it will buzz like crazy. Maybe they didn't want to admit fault for a lazy setup, or maybe it was temp change during shipping, who knows. The OP refused the return shipment so he has no first hand knowledge of their attempt to rectify the issue. 
The OPs main complaint is bad CS and Kiesel employees' attitudes, but the pics of the guitar being discussed wasn't the factory setup, it was his setup to show where the strings stopped buzzing. OP excersized his right to refuse return shipment and took advantage of their 10 day money back guarantee, which they honored, albeit in an unprofessional manner according to OPs account of transpired events.


----------



## Jeffbro

DudeManBrother said:


> If my understanding of this entire debacle is correct, when OP received the guitar it was buzzing like crazy, so he raised the action a little and it didn't fix the problem, so he raised it until the buzz went away and snapped that pic to show how high the saddles had to be to get rid of the buzz. It wasn't sent out of the factory like that. Now, according to Kiesel, all that was required was a truss rod adjustment, which could be true. If the neck is back bowed it will buzz like crazy. Maybe they didn't want to admit fault for a lazy setup, or maybe it was temp change during shipping, who knows. The OP refused the return shipment so he has no first hand knowledge of their attempt to rectify the issue.
> The OPs main complaint is bad CS and Kiesel employees' attitudes, but the pics of the guitar being discussed wasn't the factory setup, it was his setup to show where the strings stopped buzzing. OP excersized his right to refuse return shipment and took advantage of their 10 day money back guarantee, which they honored, albeit in an unprofessional manner according to OPs account of transpired events.



I agree. Kiesel is obviously bad at customer service. But if this is the case where a truss rod adjustment or shim could have easily fixed the problem on what OP calls otherwise an excellent guitar, I see why the sales rep would be annoyed they've paid for multiple shippings, fixed the guitar, and also built the guitar all for nothing.

Also I still find it unbelievable that ridiculously high action has any buzz, as OP claims. Something is wrong with the story. Even the cheapest knockoff guitar would not buzz with strings that high. It's not physically possible.

Without a good pic of the neck pocket we'll never know if it was actually built wrong. Hypothetically, if OP didn't like the guitar for any reason, what's the easiest excuse to get a refund? Shim and jack up the action would probably be one of them.


----------



## LordCashew

Jeffbro said:


> Also I still find it unbelievable that ridiculously high action has any buzz, as OP claims. Something is wrong with the story. Even the cheapest knockoff guitar would not buzz with strings that high. It's not physically possible.



I used to have an LTD SC-607B I bought on ebay. At the time I got it, they were made in Korea and had a reputation for fantastic fretwork, but mine had loads of buzz on the lower strings. In order to rectify the buzzing, I had to raise the action significantly and add neck relief to the point where it played like a cheap guitar.

It turned out that there was actually something strange about the strings it shipped with. The first time I changed them, I was able to dial everything back down and it played great. This was even going to a lighter gauge than it originally had. 

I've also had strings go nuts in the buzz department after a guitar sustained a significant impact. Probably bent or dented against the frets.

Anyway, it's probably a stretch to say that's what happened here, but occasionally there are other variables than setup and fretwork at play.



pondman said:


> I made the saddle height mistake once on a build. I obviously never made the same mistake again. Its a bit weird that they do it it that way, maybe they have a reason of some kind



Well, with a sharper break angle over the saddle, you get more downward force which facilitates better transfer of vibration to the body of the guitar. Raising saddle height on an acoustic instrument has yielded dramatic improvements in tone and resonance for me in the past.

However, I imagine such improvements would be much less noticeable on an electric instrument. Plus there's the fact that saddle heights seem lower on the neckthrough pics posted... Probably not the real reason but I thought I'd throw it out there.

FWIW I do have a couple of 10+ year old Carvin instruments, of which I find both good but neither perfect. I'm not interested in attacking or defending the current Kiesel company, just tossing out some ideas.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jeffbro said:


> I agree. Kiesel is obviously bad at customer service. But if this is the case where a truss rod adjustment or shim could have easily fixed the problem on what OP calls otherwise an excellent guitar, I see why the sales rep would be annoyed they've paid for multiple shippings, fixed the guitar, and also built the guitar all for nothing.
> 
> Also I still find it unbelievable that ridiculously high action has any buzz, as OP claims. Something is wrong with the story. Even the cheapest knockoff guitar would not buzz with strings that high. It's not physically possible.
> 
> Without a good pic of the neck pocket we'll never know if it was actually built wrong. Hypothetically, if OP didn't like the guitar for any reason, what's the easiest excuse to get a refund? Shim and jack up the action would probably be one of them.



because kiesel wouldn't check the pocket for a shim and say that instead of saying the picture of the guitar is screwy.


----------



## Rawkmann

Jeffbro said:


> Also I still find it unbelievable that ridiculously high action has any buzz, as OP claims. Something is wrong with the story. Even the cheapest knockoff guitar would not buzz with strings that high. It's not physically possible.



Not unheard of at all really. My cousin had an Ibanez Apex (the cheaper Indo one granted) and there was literally nothing I could do to get the buzz to disappear to a satisfactory degree. My aforementioned Carvin also had terrible fret buzz issues (again, due to specs not matching up correctly for that particular instrument) that couldn't be remedied without something more drastic than truss rod/bridge adjustments. One thing I've learned about guitars over the years is that it doesn't take much variance in their construction to throw things all out of wack.


----------



## MetalHead40

Jeffbro said:


> I agree. Kiesel is obviously bad at customer service. But if this is the case where a truss rod adjustment or shim could have easily fixed the problem on what OP calls otherwise an excellent guitar, I see why the sales rep would be annoyed they've paid for multiple shippings, fixed the guitar, and also built the guitar all for nothing.
> 
> Also I still find it unbelievable that ridiculously high action has any buzz, as OP claims. Something is wrong with the story. Even the cheapest knockoff guitar would not buzz with strings that high. It's not physically possible.
> 
> Without a good pic of the neck pocket we'll never know if it was actually built wrong. Hypothetically, if OP didn't like the guitar for any reason, what's the easiest excuse to get a refund? Shim and jack up the action would probably be one of them.



If the OP, being me, didn't like the guitar fore ANY reason, all I had to do was ask for a refund as per their 10 day no questions asked return policy. Therefore what reason would I have had to jack up the action and fabricate this story


----------



## MetalHead40

DudeManBrother said:


> If my understanding of this entire debacle is correct, when OP received the guitar it was buzzing like crazy, so he raised the action a little and it didn't fix the problem, so he raised it until the buzz went away and snapped that pic to show how high the saddles had to be to get rid of the buzz. It wasn't sent out of the factory like that. Now, according to Kiesel, all that was required was a truss rod adjustment, which could be true. If the neck is back bowed it will buzz like crazy. Maybe they didn't want to admit fault for a lazy setup, or maybe it was temp change during shipping, who knows. The OP refused the return shipment so he has no first hand knowledge of their attempt to rectify the issue.
> The OPs main complaint is bad CS and Kiesel employees' attitudes, but the pics of the guitar being discussed wasn't the factory setup, it was his setup to show where the strings stopped buzzing. OP excersized his right to refuse return shipment and took advantage of their 10 day money back guarantee, which they honored, albeit in an unprofessional manner according to OPs account of transpired events.



Not sure how many times I need to reiterate this, but the pics I posted were of the guitar out of the box the day I first received the guitar. 

It is correct that I tried to raise the saddles from that point to get rid of fret buzz but under that current factory setup, but there was not enough travel in order to achieve that. I literally made an 1/8th of a turn to go higher on the 5th and 6th strings and the saddles screws fell out. So it really was not possible to go any higher on those two strings. 

This was all stated in the letter I sent in with the guitar when it went back to be looked at, and I also posted that letter here in this thread.


----------



## Hollowway

Kiesel is essentially an online mass customization company. Not unlike the online made to measure suits, furniture, etc. The idea is costs are kept low because there is not need for a brick and mortar store, or dealer markup. But, as most of these companies realize, making the customer feel confident about ordering is the #1 priority. Most companies will do it by having an online tool that will let you put the specs in and will display a mockup of what you are ordering. And they are all awesome with customer service, because they know people are nervous about the whole thing. Kiesel doesn't have the online tool, which means we have to use our imagination. Their prices are no longer all that low. And they're giving worse and worse customer service. They have drastically increased their options, which is great, but they keep dropping the ball on the easy one: customer service. In the situations we've seen blow up like this it's not something strange that went down. It's just them being jerks about it. Which is why it's so weird and so inexcusable.


----------



## SamSam

I don't understand why people refer to kiesel/carvin as "high end" is it because they are MIA or because they use pretty wood? 

Most of the more reasonable reviews compare them to Ibanez prestige level of quality when they are good ones. 

FYI I have never played their guitars, however I have played two (not recent) basses which were both decent but not as a good as my ng-2
Is it the perceived bang for buck (they don't seem it to me) or just good old forum hype?


----------



## Señor Voorhees

If the nut is cut improperly you can still have lower fret buzz even with insanely high action. You can also mistake certain things for buzz. Loose screws in the bridge (usually cheap tune-o-matics), rattling washers on the tuning machines... I've had basses where I put heavier gauge strings without filing the nut and it would buzz in the nut.

High action won't outright defeat ALL types of buzz, but it will certainly point you in a better direction of where the buzz is coming from if it does still buzz with the strings that high off of the board. There's just no way that guitar was buzzing on the 12th through 24th frets with the strings that high. Hell, I'm willing to bet it could have just been a ....ty nut/fretwork and/or a shifted neck. 

Still absolutely insane that they'd crank the saddles that badly. That's just some piss poor luthier work.

edit: as for high end, I'd still consider them, as well as prestieges, "high end." The materials are quality, and the workers are (should be) quality too. It's not just some sweatshop where they throw a bunch of parts together and call it a day. Not TOP TIER high end, but they're not super budget friendly or junky. At least they shouldn't be.


----------



## kherman

SamSam said:


> I don't understand why people refer to kiesel/carvin as "high end" is it because they are MIA or because they use pretty wood?




I would compare my "Carvins" to a Ibanez RGT3120, ESP Standard MII neck thru or Jackson Soloist Select.
A quality production guitar with the ability to add options.
Unlike the others where you have to go full customshop.
Still a professional instrument. 
But, not boutique like a Suhr/Anderson/Grosh.

Of course mine are "Pre-Company Split".
Kiesel I really can't say. But, the banter on this and other forums, plus I don't care much for any of the new designs and that everything is an option 50 it seems like these days, I don't see myself buying one anytime too soon.


----------



## feraledge

MetalHead40 said:


> If the OP, being me, didn't like the guitar fore ANY reason, all I had to do was ask for a refund as per their 10 day no questions asked return policy. Therefore what reason would I have had to jack up the action and fabricate this story



This!! 
I mean there are a number of things that could be wrong here. I think figuring out why Kiesel is sending out bridges like this is a legitimate question, but it's also secondary to this story. There are other possible explanations about this guitar in general (crappy set up, bad neck joint, crap fret work, warped neck? I mean, any of those things or a combination of even two might have caused all of this), but the experience is the primary issue and all the details are just what all future and potential customers are concerned about. 
Could the OP be out to damage Kiesel? Possible, but sometimes conspiracy is unnecessary. These issues are also mentioned in the NGD post and none are necessary to have gotten a full refund based on Kiesel's own policies. Everyone has had a customer from hell, but, if anything, the length Kiesel has gone to try dusting this thing off without making it right says to me that the OP is probably the more honest of the two parties here. 



SamSam said:


> I don't understand why people refer to kiesel/carvin as "high end" is it because they are MIA or because they use pretty wood?



"High end" they definitely are not. I think people believe that "semi-custom" means "high end", which it isn't. They're on par with other guitars in a similar price range, perfectly good guitars, but not necessarily mind blowingly amazing. Guitars you could record and tour with for years without real issue. But the fact that they're semi-custom and roughly between half to a tenth of a true custom instrument is a fair representation of their quality in comparison to actual "high end" guitars. You can also modify the specs to cost a lot more, though I'm not even sure the guitars that end up in the $2K+ range get a ton more attention, but I have no experience to say either way personally. 
I will say, the V6 I had was a great playing, sounding and looking guitar, I just didn't find myself reaching for it as much as my headstocked guitars. If I was drawn towards the specs of another model, I would possibly order again, I would just never go Op50 with them. Ever.


----------



## BigViolin

What I can't get past is just how simple this could have been to handle. Pondman made a point as to making a neck pocket floor mistake once....once. 

Route that bugger flat and to the right depth as to put an average players action in the middle of the saddle height range and you're good to go. Simple, easy peazey and all that happy bull.....

Jeff, or anyone semi competent could have chucked up a flush trim bit into a hand router, eyeballed it and had that guitar set up, in the case and out the door in 45 minutes. Even if they waited a day to let it settle and tweak the truss rod one last time it's out the door in less than 48 hrs.

...and yet we have this. Boggles the mind.


----------



## Nour Ayasso

Jeffbro said:


> built the guitar all for nothing.


Pretty sure they scrap the parts, post it to reverb, or sell it to literally any store, local or franchise, that will buy it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Nour Ayasso said:


> Pretty sure they scrap the parts, post it to reverb, or sell it to literally any store, local or franchise, that will buy it.



Pull the hardware and electronics for other builds, and salvage whichever parts are without or with correctable defect. 

Tons of companies wind up with guitars that don't pass final QC. They don't just chuck them into the garbage, they pull it apart and reuse anything that isn't blatantly damaged. In manufacturing this is called "rework" or "reselect". 

In the past, when Carvin has received returned guitars they've just turned right around and put them up for sale as in-stock guitars, typically with minimal rework. 

They didn't care about getting the OP a working guitar because at that point it wasn't really their problem. Now that they're getting the guitar back they'll likely work out the problem to reduce losses, or part it out.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Lol?

I don't know if this guy works for them. Just thought it was a timely and hilarious comment.


----------



## noise in my mind

The OP gets a messed up guitar and warns others. Now he is considered a whiner? yeah...ok...


----------



## Seventhwave

Odds are none of it would have ever been "plastered" on the internet if the folks working customer service understood how the job works.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Lol... Company mouths off, mishandles parts, then ships a ....ty guitar and op isn't supposed to be upset. Stop kissing ass, you're not going to get special treatment from Kiesel.


----------



## Glades

Every company has haters?

Can any haters of Suhr, Aristides, Mayones, Ibanez Prestige, EBMM or any other top of the line guitar company please stand up? Yeah, they have none.

When you charge premium prices, expect premium expectations from your customers. If your guitars were $500 nobody would be complaining.


----------



## Mattykoda

I absolutely love my DC7X but personally for me after seeing that response I just wouldn't feel comfortable buying another guitar from them for atm.


----------



## -JeKo-




----------



## Siggevaio

Glades said:


> Every company has haters?


Yeah, this is so stupid. If people hated Kiesel from the get go, why would they buy guitars from them? It's when the guitars arrive and are well below expectations that the well deserved "hating" starts. It feels like the people at Kiesel think that they can act however they want and no one should ever question them. And if a guitar arrives faulty or with a ....ty setup, expect it to be the customers fault. 

I don't hate Kiesel but I would never buy a guitar from them knowing that they act like this. You can't trust everything you read online but there's no reason for people to make up detailed stories on Kiesel's shortcomings just to make them look bad.


----------



## technomancer

LMFAO see the above is why I flat out didn't order the two guitars I had spec'ed out in February: the attitude of the company.

I realize it's all spin and marketing, but it still annoys me. Seriously the guy didn't jump online and complain before they had a chance to handle it, they screwed up handling the situation and provided poor service that was bad enough the customer felt the need to tell people about it afterwards. The customer isn't the problem in that scenario. Then instead of saying sorry we could have handled that better and we will do better in the future they go out of their way to attack and play off anybody involved like it was a vendetta against the company and Kiesel are victims. I was hoping this kind of stuff would stop after they fired Zach, but clearly he perfectly embodied the attitudes of the company in general. It's a shame as the sales guy I usually dealt with there was awesome.


----------



## diagrammatiks

does that guy work for them?

I just thought that comment was funny.


----------



## oversteve

Glades said:


> Every company has haters?
> 
> Can any haters of Suhr, Aristides, Mayones, Ibanez Prestige, EBMM or any other top of the line guitar company please stand up? Yeah, they have none.



There are plenty of Ibby haters out there, some of them for reason and some not.
Also I saw plenty people bashing Mayo, but I also saw some Mayos with issues so idk if all that bashing is unreasonable


----------



## Jake

technomancer said:


> LMFAO see the above is why I flat out didn't order the two guitars I had spec'ed out in February: the attitude of the company.


Same here. Lord knows I was ready to throw my money at them a few times but Jeff's attitude of "We're the best and go .... yourself if you think otherwise and don't complain about the guitars we screw up." Has really put me off going anywhere near this company. 

I had a Carvin that was nice but it was far from the nicest thing I've ever played.


----------



## xvultures

technomancer said:


> LMFAO see the above is why I flat out didn't order the two guitars I had spec'ed out in February: the attitude of the company.
> 
> I realize it's all spin and marketing, but it still annoys me. Seriously the guy didn't jump online and complain before they had a chance to handle it, they screwed up handling the situation and provided poor service that was bad enough the customer felt the need to tell people about it afterwards. The customer isn't the problem in that scenario. Then instead of saying sorry we could have handled that better and we will do better in the future they go out of their way to attack and play off anybody involved like it was a vendetta against the company and Kiesel are victims. I was hoping this kind of stuff would stop after they fired Zach, but clearly he perfectly embodied the attitudes of the company in general. It's a shame as the sales guy I usually dealt with there was awesome.



I don't know how Kiesel missed some of the basic rules of customer service. Screw ups are opportunities to build a stronger relationship and attract new customers.

Heck, I just bought some Hipshot Tuners (off an ebay dealer, not even directly from Hipshot). They didn't fit my guitar so I emailed Hipshot asking what to do. I got an email that day saying to send them back and they'll replace them with longer posts. Did they screw up? No, I thought I measured right. Did they belittle me? No, They offered to help and fix my screw up. Will I buy Hipshot products now for whatever I need? Heck yes.

When I ran a small online firearms store, sometimes the wrong accessory would get shipped, sometimes the customer didn't like the way an FDE accessory looked. I'd ship them out the right one, or the color they liked and told them to keep the first one. I'd usually include a little lube sampler, a patch and my personal business card with my cell # and told them to get in touch if they ever needed anything else. Small gestures make huge differences.

I think I read a reply saying something similar earlier, but just to reiterate.. Can you imagine how different this thread would be if Kiesel fixed the mistake or went above/beyond and built him new one? "Kiesel---Again and Again!". How many more guitars would he have bought from them? How many other customers would be drawn in by their customer service?


----------



## SamSam

I'll be honest I would not consider your average Ibanez "high end" and I love ibanez guitars. But you can easily spec a Kiesel (even excluding the Kiesel editions) that cost more than all the guitars in my sig bar one. And a K edition will cost more than any piece of gear I own. Bear in mind i purchase gear in sterling. 

Maybe Jeff is a master builder and his personal builds are worth the money. 

His staff clearly are not though.


----------



## diagrammatiks

if you spec out a kiesel to be more then a mayones you have worms for brains.


----------



## SamSam

diagrammatiks said:


> if you spec out a kiesel to be more then a mayones you have worms for brains.



The key statement you appear to have omitted is "bear in mind buy gear in sterling" 

I live in the eu, mayones guitars are far cheaper than in the states. I also purchased them prior to their latest price hike. 

So yes, I purchased my Mayones and Daemoness guitars for less than a decked out standard Kiesel or a Kiesel Edition guitar.


----------



## Grindpa

For the few people asking, yes, the guy who posted that on the Kiesel page does indeed work for Kiesel. He's the guy who films Jeff live from the factory AFAIK.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Grindpa said:


> For the few people asking, yes, the guy who posted that on the Kiesel page does indeed work for Kiesel. He's the guy who films Jeff live from the factory AFAIK.



Someone just got a raise/promotion.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> if you spec out a kiesel to be more then a mayones you have worms for brains.



K series > $3k, setius < $3k. Turns out these worms are like certified accountant worms or something!


----------



## Electric Wizard

I think that facebook comment sums up the problem with smaller guitar companies. They've got lots of passion for their product but when it's misplaced it goes badly. It seems like some people at Kiesel are so into their work that they take a lot of stuff personally. Reminds me of S7G in a lot of ways. The idea that customers need to show a particular amount of deference to receive support is bizarre. Nobody there is personally sacrificing to make the guitars, and if they are they need to stop. It's the job of the company to be profitable (i.e. make quality products), not the job of the customer to buy them as a favor to all the nice people that work there.


----------



## SamSam

Carvin/Kiesel isn't really a "smaller company" though. They've been around for decades and have had several large endorsement deals with big names. 

You cannot compare their business to S7G or the likes.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

SamSam said:


> Carvin/Kiesel isn't really a "smaller company" though. They've been around for decades and have had several large endorsement deals with big names.
> 
> You cannot compare their business to S7G or the likes.



Seriously.

Kiesel isn't done in someone's basement or backyard. They got their own HQ for ....'s sake. 







Only reason they APPEAR small is because they do everything direct. They don't sell through anyone. And when they DID have to go through other distributors (internationally), their prices skyrocketed (IIRC).


----------



## Electric Wizard

SamSam said:


> Carvin/Kiesel isn't really a "smaller company" though. They've been around for decades and have had several large endorsement deals with big names.
> 
> You cannot compare their business to S7G or the likes.



I'm very aware of what Carvin is and was. I should have kept the disclaimer in defining this I guess. Compared to the heavyweights I stand by calling them small, and this is where the issue comes from. A customer service person from Ibanez doesn't go out for lunch with somebody from the shop. They don't care if you think something is shoddy, it came from a factory in another county not down the hall.

I absolutely think the sentiment expressed in that message is like those in the infamous S7G videos. "Customers said a mean thing even though I worked really hard!" I did not compare the two in terms of scale and I think this is obvious in what I wrote.


----------



## Jeffbro

narad said:


> K series > $3k, setius < $3k. Turns out these worms are like certified accountant worms or something!



Are we really comparing a stacked K series to a setius? No unbiased person would pick the setius



SamSam said:


> The key statement you appear to have omitted is "bear in mind buy gear in sterling"
> 
> I live in the eu, mayones guitars are far cheaper than in the states. I also purchased them prior to their latest price hike.
> 
> So yes, I purchased my Mayones and Daemoness guitars for less than a decked out standard Kiesel or a Kiesel Edition guitar.



Not a fair comparison at all. Kiesel is a US based company with majority US customers. Many other american brands are very expensive in EU. Also you're comparing a "decked out" Kiesel to a basic mayo or daemoness. I would take a well optioned Kiesel over a similar priced basic setius any day.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

what would a well specced out duvell go for in the EU? >3K$?


----------



## JSanta

Jeffbro said:


> Are we really comparing a stacked K series to a setius? No unbiased person would pick the setius
> 
> 
> 
> Not a fair comparison at all. Kiesel is a US based company with majority US customers. Many other american brands are very expensive in EU. Also you're comparing a "decked out" Kiesel to a basic mayo or daemoness. I would take a well optioned Kiesel over a similar priced basic setius any day.



I have two Carvin guitars, one built in 2003 and one from 2016. I like them a lot, especially my 2003. But to say that any Kiesel is on par with a Daemoness is simply ignorant. I try to find credibility in your statements but I can't. A decked out Kiesel is just nice woods. That's it. You're paying for a visual, not increased build quality.


----------



## TheTrooper

Zado said:


> I remember him talking in a facebook group about his having certain guitars considered trendy at the time (Aristides above all) and finding them sterile sounding or lacking quality, and his happiness with Kiesel guitars, miles above the other brands according to what he said.



Well I guess that was his part in the Kiesel family, not exactly the classiest way to promote the product, but surely the easiest and most functional way....Social media is a powerful weapon, can't really blame him for doing that


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

He also seemed to do that with any guitar he was trying to promote.


----------



## Jeffbro

JSanta said:


> But to say that any Kiesel is on par with a Daemoness is simply ignorant.



When did I say that? Don't just make things up to discredit other people.

Sure daemoness and high end mayo is better, but you can't bash Kiesel by saying their "decked out" guitars cost more. Duh if you add every option its gonna be expensive. Add every option from a custom mayo how much would that be? 10k? In the US a fairly basic Kiesel is 1/3 of what a regius costs, and is on par if not better than setius which is still more expensive.


----------



## SamSam

My Duvell is an Elite and my Setius isn't the barebones model, it cames stock with bkps and some other minor upgrades. Still cheaper. 

Most people agree that all Kiesel guitars (bar the Kiesel edition mega money models) are made on the same production line. At the same time most people also agree that the Regius models are built by the same people as the other models. I may stand to be corrected. 

But i have played in the region of 30 Mayones guitars, including all models and some of the signature models and all were very well build and of the same standard. There were various I disliked due to personal preferences however all of them had fully functional bridges, straight side dots and all of those other silly issues we have seen several times of late.

I won't even bother comparing my Daemoness to a Kiesel of any sort. However I will say that the Kiesel editions could be incredible, but I very much doubt they are as good as owning two daemoness guitars for the price of one KE.


----------



## SamSam

KnightBrolaire said:


> what would a well specced out duvell go for in the EU? >3K$?



My Duvell Elite cost me several 100$ less than 3k.


----------



## budda

technomancer said:


> LMFAO see the above is why I flat out didn't order the two guitars I had spec'ed out in February: the attitude of the company.



Aren't you the same guy with the collection of nice guitars? You've been above Kiesel for a while


----------



## Hollowway

Someone should post a response: "one of my pet peeves is when I DO notify a company, and they refuse to deal with the situation, then go online and post that I don't know what I'm talking about, and that it's all camera angles."


----------



## Mattykoda

^ make sure you say please at the end Hollowway.... 

* pinky out


----------



## KnightBrolaire

SamSam said:


> I won't even bother comparing my Daemoness to a Kiesel of any sort. However I will say that the Kiesel editions could be incredible, but I very much doubt they are as good as owning two daemoness guitars for the price of one KE.



2 daemoness for the price of one KE? wtf I've never seen a daemoness for under 4K in the US. I do agree that it's ridiculous that kiesel is trying to get 3K+ for the K series though. They have one on their site right now that's like 4.5K <_<


----------



## MikeNeal

KnightBrolaire said:


> 2 daemoness for the price of one KE? wtf I've never seen a daemoness for under 4K in the US. I do agree that it's ridiculous that kiesel is trying to get 3K+ for the K series though. They have one on their site right now that's like 4.5K <_<



4.5k? my god. i could buy some dream guitars of mine for that dough


----------



## narad

Jeffbro said:


> Are we really comparing a stacked K series to a setius? No unbiased person would pick the setius



I would, but hey, I like my guitars to intonate properly and not have contours like a preschool art class rendition of a guitar. See:


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MikeNeal said:


> 4.5k? my god. i could buy some dream guitars of mine for that dough



it's actually 4200$ for this one: 




specs:
- Gold Hardware
EVO - Gold Med-Jumbo Frets .048" H .103" W
SAT - Summer Ash Treatment (Must Order Swamp Ash Body)
50 - Custom Option
ASH - Maple Neck/Swamp Ash Body
TCE - Ebony Truss Rod Cover
BPE - Ebony Rear Electronics Cavity Cover
AK - Metal Knobs w/ Abalone Inlays
7MWH - 7-Piece Maple Neck w/ Walnut/Mahogany/Maple Stripes
IKD - 12th Fret K Logo w/ Offset Dots

Weight: 7.6 lbs.

Notes: 7A Hand Selected Master Grade Ziricote Top and Headstock Overlay, Ziricote Fretboard, NO 10-DAY TRIAL OR RETURNS ON THIS INSTRUMENT

*The "7A Grade" ziricote part makes me laugh, how the hell do you grade ziricote?*


----------



## narad

Ah yes...7A hand selected master grade Ziricote which looks... pretty much like any Ziricote you find in use as a guitar top.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> Ah yes...7A hand selected master grade Ziricote which looks... pretty much like any Ziricote you find in use as a guitar top.



yeah I've gotten a couple of boards of it and some cocobolo off ebay that look comparable (or better in the cocobolo's case) imo. A ziricote top doesn't warrant a 2k increase in price imo.


----------



## oracles

Jeffbro said:


> Are we really comparing a stacked K series to a setius? No unbiased person would pick the setius



I thoroughly disagree. The K series have shipped with the same flaws, and same terrible customer service as the regular Kiesel builds, where is my incentive to purchase a K series at all? On top of that, when I've seen first hand that a K series/Jeff build doesn't even have a properly routed truss rod, nor graphite reinforcement cavities routed properly, why would I risk it when I know a Setius is a safe bet?

There isn't a Kiesel on earth, Jeff built or not that will hold it's own with a Mayo. Don't pretend like a Kiesel is anything more than what it is, a $1500 semi-custom no matter what you do to it.


----------



## feraledge

Is there any validation to thinking that the build quality improves on the more expensive Kiesels?? Isn't it mostly just picking the woods and finishes??? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought it was all upgrades on existing models using the same production lines. Does Jeff qualify as a "master builder"?


----------



## Jeffbro

oracles said:


> I thoroughly disagree. The K series have shipped with the same flaws, and same terrible customer service as the regular Kiesel builds, where is my incentive to purchase a K series at all? On top of that, when I've seen first hand that a K series/Jeff build doesn't even have a properly routed truss rod, nor graphite reinforcement cavities routed properly, why would I risk it when I know a Setius is a safe bet?
> 
> There isn't a Kiesel on earth, Jeff built or not that will hold it's own with a Mayo. Don't pretend like a Kiesel is anything more than what it is, a $1500 semi-custom no matter what you do to it.



I've seen many reviews with setius issues, never one about a K series, can't even google any. You say you've never had a K series, so you're just making things up now?

A quality and well spec'ed $1500 semi custom vs a $2k very basic and underwhelming production setius? I'd take the first any day.

Mayos are seriously over hyped on these boards. Nice guitars, but not worth the price. $4k regiuses didn't even have arm contours until very recently, is that a joke?


----------



## Jeffbro

feraledge said:


> Is there any validation to thinking that the build quality improves on the more expensive Kiesels??



A few reviews have suggested this is the case, although no one can be sure how much difference is in the build process.


----------



## feraledge

Jeffbro said:


> A few reviews have suggested this is the case, although no one can be sure how much difference is in the build process.



I trust the owners of those guitars would believe the difference is qualifiable, but I'm asking about the whole process. I've seen nothing that suggests better build quality other than believing that Jeff's personal involvement in the build means greater quality. Not to say it isn't, but he's inherited his position and that doesn't make him Mike Shannon or Grover Jackson.


----------



## diagrammatiks

feraledge said:


> Is there any validation to thinking that the build quality improves on the more expensive Kiesels?? Isn't it mostly just picking the woods and finishes??? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought it was all upgrades on existing models using the same production lines. Does Jeff qualify as a "master builder"?



http://puu.sh/rZeQ5/c6592cc5b4.jpg

These are the exact same guitar. Take that as you will.

edit big picture is big


----------



## xzacx

Jeffbro said:


> I've seen many reviews with setius issues, never one about a K series, can't even google any. You say you've never had a K series, so you're just making things up now?



Come on man, are you shilling that hard, or have you not even read this very thread? Jonathan20022 re-told his issues with a K series. 

What about the cracked tops? You haven't heard about those either?


----------



## A-Branger

feraledge said:


> Is there any validation to thinking that the build quality improves on the more expensive Kiesels?? Isn't it mostly just picking the woods and finishes??? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought it was all upgrades on existing models using the same production lines. Does Jeff qualify as a "master builder"?



you would think that a guitar in which the customer spend $$$$$$$ extra on it should get some kind of "extra care" and more detail to it. Like this guy jsut spent X amount of money on it, lets be extra careful with this build and be sure its 100% perfect. Either by doing a better job at it, or jsut simply give this guitar build to a more experienced guy in the shop like "this is too risky, here! you do it". Now if they do that and take extra care or not I have no idea. They should, but who knows

Also since some of those extra upcharges are some custom finishes and stuff, Ideally this means it needs to be done by the experienced guy in the shop who knows how to nail the color top selected, instead of giving it to the noob assistant in the shop who is jsut finish learning how to do plain solid colors.

Same as the extra man hours required to do certain task either finishes or neck laminations, electronics, ect ect. So no every upcharge means "better quality", its jsut that requires extra time, or an extra process in the line, a one of a kind, side step process in their "standard" production line, which mess with their procedures (like A goes to B then to C finish D and later E to then ship at F...... but ow you are introducing X and Y step between C and E)

"Jeff's price" too. Hes the owner, he can upcharge itself if he wants to. If someone believes that Jeff doing the paint job would make their guitar "better" in any way, and they are whilling to pay, then who cares. My old boss at my old job had an upcharge for him going out filming, only because he could sell that he had X amount of experience and blah blah, even when I could produce the exact same video. But for him it meant to stop doing his work duties to do something else, just because hes the owner of the company doesnt mean hes not bussy working either.

But agree that some of the upcharge are far too high


----------



## Ludgate

Jeffbro said:


> I've seen many reviews with setius issues, *never one about a K series, can't even google any*. You say you've never had a K series, so you're just making things up now?
> 
> A quality and well spec'ed $1500 semi custom vs a $2k very basic and underwhelming production setius? I'd take the first any day.
> 
> Mayos are seriously over hyped on these boards. Nice guitars, but not worth the price. $4k regiuses didn't even have arm contours until very recently, is that a joke?



Come on man, there's literally a K series with multiple issues (both the guitar itself and customer service) in this very thread.

As for Mayos being overhyped, the "Show your Mayones Duvells" thread was dead at what, page 2? I'ld say most of us are too preoccupied playing them instead of whoring them all over forums and social media to validate how much we paid. 

Sorry, I digress. Bad customer service is bad.


----------



## laxu

The whole idea with Kiesel is that even the basic model is built the same way as the more expensive one and the extra costs are largely nicer woods and finishes that not only require said nicer woods but also take more time to apply or slightly more expensive parts. Then you have the upcharges for the "we don't really want to do this but will if you pay enough" things like custom finishes. IMO this is the section they should ditch and concentrate on having a clear set of parameters rather than "ask and you may receive".

That is at least the theory, whether they spend extra time on QC on the higher cost models is something only Kiesel can answer.


----------



## SnowfaLL

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol?
> 
> I don't know if this guy works for them. Just thought it was a timely and hilarious comment.



I think everyone is missing the fact that this guy most likely does not work for them.. Just a random guy.. If you didnt block the name, we could see for sure. But people just read the comment and assume.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I think it's interesting that people really think there is a huge difference between any well set up guitars. After doing a full setup/fret dress on even a cheap guitar, it feels like a guitar. Mayones definitely has quality materials, quality craftsmanship, and great unchangeable specs (neck joint/profile,) but they don't feel/play more like a guitar than any other brand.

I'll take a mayones over a kiesel any day, but mostly because they're prettier with nicer feeling necks. To pretend they're super magically different otherwise really IS just trying to justify the outright inflated (at least in the states) price. 

How polite their customer service is I've no clue. Ive grown to hate Jeff's attitude though, and would really rather not give him my money. Can't say I've read much, if any, bad Mayones customer service stories.


----------



## SamSam

KnightBrolaire said:


> 2 daemoness for the price of one KE? wtf I've never seen a daemoness for under 4K in the US. I do agree that it's ridiculous that kiesel is trying to get 3K+ for the K series though. They have one on their site right now that's like 4.5K <_<



That guitar currently for sale is a fair bit cheaper than several of the gaudy beasts for sale in the past. Often priced about halfway between the guitar linked here and that double neck 9k guitar we are all ignoring. 

I could have had three of my Daemoness with some change or almost 2 of my .strandberg* for the cost of that double neck


----------



## davedeath

SnowfaLL said:


> I think everyone is missing the fact that this guy most likely does not work for them.. Just a random guy.. If you didnt block the name, we could see for sure. But people just read the comment and assume.



That's Manny, basically Jeff's right hand man.


----------



## feraledge

Chokey Chicken said:


> I think it's interesting that people really think there is a huge difference between any well set up guitars. After doing a full setup/fret dress on even a cheap guitar, it feels like a guitar. Mayones definitely has quality materials, quality craftsmanship, and great unchangeable specs (neck joint/profile,) but they don't feel/play more like a guitar than any other brand.



Playability is only one piece of the whole guitar though. You can make almost any guitar playable, but if the woods and construction aren't great, then it's not likely to sound great or nearly as great as a guitar with better woods and constructions. Quality matters a lot, beyond the set ups.


----------



## oracles

Jeffbro said:


> I've seen many reviews with setius issues, never one about a K series, can't even google any. You say you've never had a K series, so you're just making things up now?



Jonathan chimed in here with exactly that, a negative review and documented his entire experience. I know him personally, we've discussed how the situation was handled start to finish, and it's appalling. To not only f*ck the instrument up more and send it back, and then flat out ban/blacklist him from ever ordering again, does that seem like a business worth dealing with in any capacity? 

Even IF Mayones sent me a Setius with flaws, I'd still rather have that because at least then I KNOW Mayones will do what they can to rectify the issue, where as Kiesel would likely tell me to get f*cked. 

I don't know what your affiliation with Jeff is, or why you feel the need to continually justify every wrong doing from him or his business, but seriously man, enough.


----------



## jc986

SnowfaLL said:


> I think everyone is missing the fact that this guy most likely does not work for them.. Just a random guy.. If you didnt block the name, we could see for sure. But people just read the comment and assume.



I'm in that FB group and that was posted by a Kiesel employee.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Chokey Chicken said:


> I think it's interesting that people really think there is a huge difference between any well set up guitars. After doing a full setup/fret dress on even a cheap guitar, it feels like a guitar. Mayones definitely has quality materials, quality craftsmanship, and great unchangeable specs (neck joint/profile,) but they don't feel/play more like a guitar than any other brand.
> 
> I'll take a mayones over a kiesel any day, but mostly because they're prettier with *nicer feeling necks*. To pretend they're super magically different otherwise really IS just trying to justify the outright inflated (at least in the states) price.
> 
> How polite their customer service is I've no clue. Ive grown to hate Jeff's attitude though, and would really rather not give him my money. Can't say I've read much, if any, bad Mayones customer service stories.



i guess i find it weird when people say oh it's just a nicer feeling neck...
the neck is the most important part of the guitar. you can get a good setup back you can't change the neck shape or profile very easily.

I can understand people really liking Kiesel if they really love the neck profile that the vaders and dc series uses...

But, I think the neck on a regius is better in every way. That's worth 1000 bucks to me.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

diagrammatiks said:


> i guess i find it weird when people say oh it's just a nicer feeling neck...
> the neck is the most important part of the guitar. you can get a good setup back you can't change the neck shape or profile very easily.
> 
> I can understand people really liking Kiesel if they really love the neck profile that the vaders and dc series uses...
> 
> But, I think the neck on a regius is better in every way. That's worth 1000 bucks to me.



I never said "just" a nicer feeling neck. It's a big reason to prefer something. That said, one of my favorite feeling necks is on a guitar I payed $75 for. My current favorite neck is on a sub $1000 schecter. It's a matter of opinion, and has nothing to do with how "high end" something is. Just because someone prefers the neck on one doesn't make it objectively higher end. 

High end just means quality materials, quality electronics, and quality craftsmanship. The handful of Kiesel guitars I've personally played felt and handled like high end instruments, and they are. The parts and craftsmanship arent cheap corner cut crap. No more or less bad than the handful of Mayones I've played. I just find it interesting that people think there is some huge gap between a Gibson, Mayones, Kiesel, Jackson, etc. The difference is in consistency, and Kiesel is missing the mark there. If you order a guitar from them, and they don't .... it up, it's high end in my eyes. Nice woods, good hardware, great sounding pickups, and quality fretwork. 

Don't get me wrong, though... Customer service, and fixing what's wrong when it clearly is wrong, is a huge issue with these guys. I certainly won't give them any more of my money if this is how they treat customers. I also won't give money to Mayones, simply because the price is too much... A good chunk of what you're paying over here in the states isn't even the value of the guitar, but what taxes and such add on top. 

I'm not a fan of the company anymore, but god damn it if the guitars they've made for me arent some of the best guitars I've played. Certainly not going to ever sell them.


----------



## atticus1088

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol?
> 
> I don't know if this guy works for them. Just thought it was a timely and hilarious comment.



I own 2 Carvins and 1 Kiesel, and I've even been looking at purchasing a couple more, but the comment above has me thinking otherwise. The above Facebook post is disgusting. Venting about customers you aren't happy with is far from professional.

The only thing that comment accomplished was showing me (A potential future customer), how Kiesel deals with their problems. Just because you can post about poor dealings with customers, doesn't mean you should do it.


----------



## oracles

Chokey Chicken said:


> I just find it interesting that people think there is some huge gap between a Gibson, Mayones, Kiesel, Jackson, etc. The difference is in consistency, and Kiesel is missing the mark there. If you order a guitar from them, and they don't .... it up, it's high end in my eyes. Nice woods, good hardware, great sounding pickups, and quality fretwork.



My argument there would be the consistency which you touched on, but also that the other brands in that bracket simply are superior instruments. Kiesel do use pretty looking woods, but I don't think they dry them properly, creating tuning stability issues as well as neck warping which is from what I've seen and heard, fairly common on Kiesel instruments, which the aforementioned brands don't seem to suffer from. 

Part of it as well is the attention to detail piece. Nearly every Kiesel I've ever seen has had misaligned side dots. There's jigs for that which reduce, if not eliminate that problem, why can't Kiesel do it? They CNC everything, and market that as a point of pride, why can't that be rectified? 

I'm not out to slander Kiesel, and I don't think they make sh*tty instruments, but I believe they're built to a $1500 standard, and the quality doesn't increase from there, no matter how hard you option it out. Once you cross that $1500 threshold, the used market yields better value instruments IMO, and you don't take the resale hit that's an inherent part of owning a Kiesel instrument. 

The other brands you mentioned are not immune to mistakes, I love my Jacksons but even I don't understand how they let a 23 fret CS Kelly through QC, nor a B7 with 25 frets, however in both of those cases, FMIC owned the fault and fixed the issue without blaming anyone, there was no hostility, and I never heard or saw any complaints after the fact, and that to me speaks volumes about the character and integrity of the business, and makes me as a consumer feel considerably more comfortable ordering through them.

I think Jeff & Co are simply trying to push the brand as a boutique brand, without actually meeting the criteria of what it means to be a boutique brand. They lack the consistency, customer service, and attention to detail that the brands they try to compete with DO have. It all feels like a case of getting too big too fast, without taking the proper time or care to ensure that the consumer doesn't pay the price for the lack of business sense held by the people making decisions over at Kiesel.


----------



## technomancer

budda said:


> Aren't you the same guy with the collection of nice guitars? You've been above Kiesel for a while



I've also paid more vet bills in the last 18 months than some people spend on their cars so yes I was looking at a Kiesel for an alder bodied bolt on. I also like their Vader design and was looking at the trem model and am a Becker fan and dig the numbers model.

As I've said before when they don't screw up their guitars are solid.


----------



## OlisDead

Consistency is the key but from my experience when a Kiesel/Carvin is well made, it's a high end instrument. I've had a bunch of Carvins and 1 Kiesel some were better than others and some had flaws. But two of them where some of the best guitars I've owned as far as construction and playability. I've owned/played dozens of Mayones (was an endorsee a few years back) some were better than others but there more better ones.

I truly believe Kiesel CAN make high end guitars, it's just not the norm right now.

You have to believe in what you produce but the customer must always be the priority and even though you can think one customer is a dick, it's your job to make things right for him. 

Bitching about customers who are in their right is not a good way to manage your business.


----------



## xzacx

oracles said:


> I think Jeff & Co are simply trying to push the brand as a boutique brand, without actually meeting the criteria of what it means to be a boutique brand.




Exactly. "High end" doesn't simply mean expensive, just like fancy doesn't mean quality (ahem, K Series). Consistency and customer service are big parts of it. Even image is part of it. This shirt is NOT something a high end brand puts their name on - although it does do a pretty good job of summing the image I actually do have of Jeff and his brand.


----------



## wannabguitarist

xzacx said:


> Exactly. "High end" doesn't simply mean expensive, just like fancy doesn't mean quality (ahem, K Series). Consistency and customer service are big parts of it. Even image is part of it. This shirt is NOT something a high end brand puts their name on - although it does do a pretty good job of summing the image I actually do have of Jeff and his brand.



I dunno, I could totally see Jackson selling a shirt like that


----------



## xzacx

wannabguitarist said:


> I dunno, I could totally see Jackson selling a shirt like that



Ugh maybe...but I hope not in 2017 at least hahaha


----------



## narad

technomancer said:


> I've also had more vet bills in the last 18 months than some people spend on their cars so yes I was looking at a Kiesel for an alder bodied bolt on. I also like their Vader design and was looking at the trem model and am a Becker fan and dig the numbers model.



If you like the Vader design then I have some bad news regarding your next 18 months of optometrist bills ;-)


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> If you like the Vader design then I have some bad news regarding your next 18 months of optometrist bills ;-)



I have clearly not banned you nearly enough


----------



## InCasinoOut

oracles said:


> I don't know what your affiliation with Jeff is, or why you feel the need to continually justify every wrong doing from him or his business, but seriously man, enough.



Someone joked about Jeffbro being Jeff Keisel a few pages back, and so far there aren't a lot of signs that point to no


----------



## Jeffbro

oracles said:


> My argument there would be the consistency which you touched on, but also that the other brands in that bracket simply are superior instruments. Kiesel do use pretty looking woods, but *I don't think they dry them properly, creating tuning stability issues as well as neck warping which is from what I've seen and heard, fairly common on Kiesel instruments*, which the aforementioned brands don't seem to suffer from.
> 
> *Nearly every Kiesel I've ever seen has had misaligned side dots.*
> 
> I'm not out to slander Kiesel, and I don't think they make sh*tty instruments, but I believe they're built to a $1500 standard, and the quality doesn't increase from there, no matter how hard you option it out. Once you cross that $1500 threshold, the used market yields better value instruments IMO, and you don't take the resale hit that's an inherent part of owning a Kiesel instrument.



Those are some ridiculous claims you made up. They're built to $1500 standard because that's how much they normally cost. My $1k prestiges are built to $1k standards and have the highest quality trems and necks on the market with no visible defects. How exactly is a $4k regius better?



oracles said:


> I don't know what your affiliation with Jeff is, or why you feel the need to continually justify every wrong doing from him or his business, but seriously man, enough.





InCasinoOut said:


> Someone joked about Jeffbro being Jeff Keisel a few pages back, and so far there aren't a lot of signs that point to no



Please stop obsessing about me. I'm an Ibanez guy. I've owned Kiesels in the past, all were excellent, all were sold because they weren't for me. I comment because I despise bandwagon haters, especially ones who make up things to trash a brand.


----------



## SamSam

In all fairness you seem to be arguing against everyone's negative comments whether they are factual or not. 

Obviously we know you are an expert economist amongst other things but you have to admit the side dot thing was an issue (not on every build clearly) but Kiesel himself jad to address the issue and state that all side dots would be cnc routed as a result of those flaws!

I haven't even read any comments about how he perfected fanned frets for all those companies doing it wrong for so long now...


----------



## oracles

Jeffbro said:


> Those are some ridiculous claims you made up



I wish they were, but these are real, legitimate issues that people have had, and continue to have. Within less than 3 months of ownership, a brand new DC800 bought by a friend a few hours south of me was nigh on ruined, despite being stored in a climate controlled room, with tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear stored in the same room, and the Kiesel was the only one to exhibit that problem. The neck was so badly warped it would've required steaming to fix, and Kiesel CS blamed him for it and offered no assistance.

Travis Montgomery had and returned no less than FIVE builds for that exact issue. There's plenty more, but I digress. These aren't made up claims, but you're free to think what you like.


----------



## narad

oracles said:


> Travis Montgomery had and returned no less than FIVE builds for that exact issue. There's plenty more, but I digress. These aren't made up claims, but you're free to think what you like.



Classic Kiesel hater. Just hopping on the bandwagon, sending five guitars back.


----------



## SamSam

He never sent five guitars back, it's mere slander to tarnish the Kiesel legacy. 

Just like my customs that I definitely didn't buy for the prices I inferred I did, simply to undermine the incredible value these fine instruments represent.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

oracles said:


> My argument there would be the consistency which you touched on, but also that the other brands in that bracket simply are superior instruments. Kiesel do use pretty looking woods, but I don't think they dry them properly, creating tuning stability issues as well as neck warping which is from what I've seen and heard, fairly common on Kiesel instruments, which the aforementioned brands don't seem to suffer from.
> 
> Part of it as well is the attention to detail piece. Nearly every Kiesel I've ever seen has had misaligned side dots. There's jigs for that which reduce, if not eliminate that problem, why can't Kiesel do it? They CNC everything, and market that as a point of pride, why can't that be rectified?
> 
> I'm not out to slander Kiesel, and I don't think they make sh*tty instruments, but I believe they're built to a $1500 standard, and the quality doesn't increase from there, no matter how hard you option it out. Once you cross that $1500 threshold, the used market yields better value instruments IMO, and you don't take the resale hit that's an inherent part of owning a Kiesel instrument.
> 
> The other brands you mentioned are not immune to mistakes, I love my Jacksons but even I don't understand how they let a 23 fret CS Kelly through QC, nor a B7 with 25 frets, however in both of those cases, FMIC owned the fault and fixed the issue without blaming anyone, there was no hostility, and I never heard or saw any complaints after the fact, and that to me speaks volumes about the character and integrity of the business, and makes me as a consumer feel considerably more comfortable ordering through them.
> 
> I think Jeff & Co are simply trying to push the brand as a boutique brand, without actually meeting the criteria of what it means to be a boutique brand. They lack the consistency, customer service, and attention to detail that the brands they try to compete with DO have. It all feels like a case of getting too big too fast, without taking the proper time or care to ensure that the consumer doesn't pay the price for the lack of business sense held by the people making decisions over at Kiesel.



I can mostly agree with what's said here. I will make mention though that at least in recent years they've been drying their woods properly, and even more recently getting their side dots straight. I still feel the couple I own are high quality instruments, worth well over what I paid, but a handful of good instruments does not a boutique company make. Perhaps I was just arguing semantics, which is frequently the case, but when Kiesel gets it right, they're damn good guitars. 

Consistency is a huge deal, and they seem to be missing the mark there. And when consistency fails, good customer service. 

There is also still the fact that it's impossible to know how the truss rod is routed. My guitars sound and play great, but I'll never know how sloppy the routs are.

Edit: i suppose i should mention that I THOUGHT the woods were handled differently. Mayhaps I'm mistaken. I do know the guitars I own haven't shifted, and we have some gnarly humid summers and super dry winters. No climate control either, and I've not touched the truss rods in the one and two years I've owned them.


----------



## marcwormjim

Jeffbro said:


> I comment because I despise bandwagon haters, especially ones who make up things to trash a brand.


----------



## arasys

Jeffbro said:


> Those are some ridiculous claims you made up...
> 
> I despise bandwagon haters, especially ones who make up things to trash a brand.



Hey my name is Kiesel, and I have no affiliation with Jeff guitars.

I am glad you have more than enough time for a personal quest towards those who "make up" stuff. I am sure almost all of those people across several forums complaining about misaligned dots, horrid neck angles and maxed out hipshot bridges adjust their cameras to take misleading pictures to sadistically attack Kiesel. And there's also an evil javascript on each forum that blinds the eye of the viewer to make them see things on Kiesel guitars.. 

Do you also despise brands that make up stuff for marketing purposes?


----------



## Jeffbro

arasys said:


> Hey my name is Kiesel, and I have no affiliation with Jeff guitars.
> 
> I am glad you have more than enough time for a personal quest towards those who "make up" stuff. I am sure almost all of those people across several forums complaining about misaligned dots, horrid neck angles and maxed out hipshot bridges adjust their cameras to take misleading pictures to sadistically attack Kiesel. And there's also an evil javascript on each forum that blinds the eye of the viewer to make them see things on Kiesel guitars..
> 
> Do you also despise brands that make up stuff for marketing purposes?



You guys are funny. Yeah there's been crooked side dots, yeah one time a custom color didn't come out quite right, yeah this set up was bad. But you guys are acting like all of them are bad guitars that cost $3k. 

Truth is the vast vast majority come out to be reasonably priced high quality instruments with minimal flaws. Most Kiesels with QC issues get returned without any problem. A few outspoken individuals whose stories we only hear one side of does not define a company.


----------



## Seventhwave

Jeffbro said:


> A few outspoken individuals whose stories we only hear one side of does not define a company.



However, how said company responds to those "few stories" does.


----------



## SamSam

No one is saying that they are incapable of building a decent guitar here. But they won't be bothering prs or suhr anytime soon either...

"Bad setup"...   

Yea that's not a bad set up, that's a ....ing mistake that should never have left the shop.

Jeff's online activity is questionable at best as well. That really doesn't help their rep.


----------



## feraledge

Jeffbro said:


> Truth is the vast vast majority come out to be reasonably priced high quality instruments with minimal flaws. Most Kiesels with QC issues get returned without any problem. A few outspoken individuals whose stories we only hear one side of does not define a company.



No one here is saying all Kiesels or even most Kiesels are bad guitars by any stretch of the imagination. 
But what you're saying is that the public customer service overreaction to reasonable complaints, led by the man bearing the company's name who also does all the public face work for said company and that company is based on direct-to-consumer online sales... Yeah, that can pretty much define that company. At any point, they could have made this right. 
Perry at Ormsby just posted a video last week where a custom guitar never met their standards. He stripped it down and sawed it in half in a live cast. No one is saying a guitar turning out badly is impossible with the best of builders, just that they should make it right. 
People shouldn't be speaking more highly of their interactions with Agile than Kiesel. That's really what this boils down to. But keep trying harder to save them than they would save themselves simply by not being dicks about a return covered by their own policies.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

feraledge said:


> No one here is saying all Kiesels or even most Kiesels are bad guitars by any stretch of the imagination.
> But what you're saying is that the public customer service overreaction to reasonable complaints, led by the man bearing the company's name who also does all the public face work for said company and that company is based on direct-to-consumer online sales... Yeah, that can pretty much define that company. At any point, they could have made this right.
> Perry at Ormsby just posted a video last week where a custom guitar never met their standards. He stripped it down and sawed it in half in a live cast. No one is saying a guitar turning out badly is impossible with the best of builders, just that they should make it right.
> People shouldn't be speaking more highly of their interactions with Agile than Kiesel. That's really what this boils down to. But keep trying harder to save them than they would save themselves simply by not being dicks about a return covered by their own policies.



They weren't even dicks about the return. They were dicks about him inquiring. Then they told him they might take parts off his complete guitar for their own uses. Then they sent him a jacked up guitar, which he returned. Then they were dicks after the fact. lol


----------



## laxu

oracles said:


> My argument there would be the consistency which you touched on, but also that the other brands in that bracket simply are superior instruments. Kiesel do use pretty looking woods, but I don't think they dry them properly, creating tuning stability issues as well as neck warping which is from what I've seen and heard, fairly common on Kiesel instruments, which the aforementioned brands don't seem to suffer from.
> 
> Part of it as well is the attention to detail piece. Nearly every Kiesel I've ever seen has had misaligned side dots. There's jigs for that which reduce, if not eliminate that problem, why can't Kiesel do it? They CNC everything, and market that as a point of pride, why can't that be rectified?



I would not put much stock into any talk about their wood drying process. Hard to prove right or wrong. I certainly haven't read much about issues with warped necks and considering they use carbon rods and often multiple wood laminates they would be very unlikely to warp.

Kiesel has rectified the side dot issue. They now use CNC for that. Both of my Carvin/Kiesel guitars have slight issues in this area but this is pretty much the ONLY issue on those two guitars and I can live with that. They didn't cost anywhere near as much as some "real boutiques" but the only guitar I own that truly puts their quality to shame is my Heatley and those nowadays cost about twice as much as a top specced Kiesel.

Kiesel has only two areas that they need to improve and those are reduce these QC issues as experienced by OP and up their PR game. I don't care for the cult of personality crap Jeff is trying to build around him. He makes claims that he reverses 6 months later sometimes but at least he's willing to improve the designs if people ask for something enough. Some of their customer service reps could obviously use some training from their wonderfully friendly mr. Chris Hong.


----------



## Bladed-Vaults

I just read over all 16 pages. And...... HOLY $&!+BALLS. I have had 3 carvins.. all were shotty finishes. Weird little visual flaws ect. All played great. I just picked up my first keisel.. second hand. And it's fantastic....... for what it is. I adore their new "thinner neck profile" the thing very seriously plays as well as ball reserve I owned before the ex wife sent it packing. There are no finish flaws.. it's well set up and it was built less than 10 months ago. During this time of crazy qc issues.. I have it up for trade here because it's too bright for me. (Second hand I had no say in woods lol) but that's a personal issue not an issue with the axe. 

I was so enamoured with mine (for the price point) that I had actually thought to have one built to my desired specs. But after this and doing more searches.. nope. Nope. Hell nope. The way the OP was treated and the response on Facebook are nails in coffin for me.. I'll stay buying used


----------



## MetalHead40

I've started saving me pennies, and the next semi-custom build for me is coming from Suhr I do believe.


----------



## Jeff

SamSam said:


> I don't understand why people refer to kiesel/carvin as "high end" is it because they are MIA or because they use pretty wood?
> 
> Most of the more reasonable reviews compare them to Ibanez prestige level of quality when they are good ones.
> 
> FYI I have never played their guitars, however I have played two (not recent) basses which were both decent but not as a good as my ng-2
> Is it the perceived bang for buck (they don't seem it to me) or just good old forum hype?



All five of the Carvins I had weren't even on par with a PRS SE, so I don't know where people get "high end" from.


----------



## ihunda

Come on, this is transforming into a generic Kiesel bashing session. 

I have 3 vaders and I love them, I will never order a new guitar from Kiesel until they sort out their customer interaction issues but no need to bash the instruments themselves.

Time to lock the thread I guess...


----------



## Jeffbro

Jeff said:


> All five of the Carvins I had weren't even on par with a PRS SE, so I don't know where people get "high end" from.



Carvin is not the same Kiesel, there are plenty of older carvins that are basically from another era.

Saying Kiesels are not on par with a PRS SE is a joke

If you consider american strats and prestiges high end, then Kiesels are high end. 



ihunda said:


> Come on, this is transforming into a generic Kiesel bashing session.



Exactly, a bad customer service and setup has turned into generic "Kiesels all have a bunch of issues" "Kiesels are crap mayos are way better" "Kiesels are overpriced because I added a ton of options" nonsense.


----------



## noise in my mind

Jeffbro said:


> Carvin is not the same Kiesel, there are plenty of older carvins that are basically from another era.
> 
> Saying Kiesels are not on par with a PRS SE is a joke
> 
> If you consider american strats and prestiges high end, then Kiesels are high end.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, a bad customer service and setup has turned into generic "Kiesels all have a bunch of issues" "Kiesels are crap mayos are way better" "Kiesels are overpriced because I added a ton of options" nonsense.



I don't think anyone is saying kiesel's are crap. They like other brands sometimes have issues. The big issues with kiesel is how they are currently handling these problems. They basically tell their customers to screw off.


----------



## narad

noise in my mind said:


> I don't think anyone is saying kiesel's are crap.









But I've got better things to do than harp on that point in internet threads. 

What's interesting about this thread is how when build quality issues and customer service issues are being raised by long term customers, still a bunch of guys jump in to say, 'hey! Kiesel bashing! Guess it's time to lock this down! We're locking this down, right mods? Lock it... Lock it down."

Kiesel could "lock the thread" by just doing some proper customer service to remedy the issue. They could have "locked the thread" by not delivering shoddy guitars. When I search for a potential guitar -- like Mayones -- I want to know how many threads like this are out there. The fact that there's is essentially 0 threads like this out there for high-end Mayones contributed greatly to me buying a Mayones regius, internationally, site unseen. These things are helpful.


----------



## MikeNeal

im sure not all kiesels are crap, but all of those guitars posted had the saddles way maxed out, and the necks protruding too far from the neck pocket. that is crap, it's a rookie mistake i made on my build and i will never make it again. why do people tolerate that from a 1000 dollar+ guitar


----------



## prlgmnr

People tolerate it because they've paid thousands of dollars for it and to not tolerate it would be to admit that they made a mistake, and people hate doing that.


----------



## mnemonic

I really liked Carvin back in college. I remember going to their Sacramento store a couple times back then, my roommate ordered a custom DC747 with way too many options. 

The guitars in the store were generally pretty awesome and my roommates guitar was great playing also. I was never sold on the sound of his guitar, but he also chose pickups that I wouldn't have, so we were probably after different sounds. 

It was definately a level above Korean imports with regard to playability and feel. However the structural/design issues in OP's guitar make me think that maybe that isn't the case anymore for the newer models. 



narad said:


> When I search for a potential guitar -- like Mayones -- I want to know how many threads like this are out there. The fact that there's is essentially 0 threads like this out there for high-end Mayones contributed greatly to me buying a Mayones regius, internationally, site unseen. These things are helpful.



I did a lot of searching here and elsewhere on the internet before I bought my mayones, and I found the same thing - very few complaints and what I did find tended to be on their much older guitars. I bought a Setius on the back of that, and it's a great guitar. Online reviews and complaints are excellent resources for those of us that can't always try before we buy.


----------



## Nour Ayasso

Jeff said:


> All five of the Carvins I had weren't even on par with a PRS SE, so I don't know where people get "high end" from.





Jeffbro said:


> A few outspoken individuals whose stories we only hear one side of does not define a company.



Lol is this a Jeff spawn zone?

Seriously, Kiesel has done more damage to themselves with their negative reactions and poor customer service. This isn't about a blemish this about an expensive product not performing the way it was intended to. A few? I'm pretty sure I've read multiple brutal Kiesel NGDs on here that go beyond aesthetics, so if any SSO regulars wanna link a thread that'd be perfect.

Again, ordering an expensive custom guitar and waiting for a long period of time, only to be treated like sh*t over the phone/internet for speaking up when your product wasn't up to par, makes it all _NOT WORTH IT_


----------



## possumkiller

Jeffbro said:


> Carvin is not the same Kiesel, there are plenty of older carvins that are basically from another era.
> 
> Saying Kiesels are not on par with a PRS SE is a joke
> 
> If you consider american strats and prestiges high end, then Kiesels are high end.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, a bad customer service and setup has turned into generic "Kiesels all have a bunch of issues" "Kiesels are crap mayos are way better" "Kiesels are overpriced because I added a ton of options" nonsense.



You keep forgetting to say that anyone who hates Kiesels hates America and wants ISIS to win...


----------



## MetalHead40

Chokey Chicken said:


> They weren't even dicks about the return. They were dicks about him inquiring. Then they told him they might take parts off his complete guitar for their own uses. Then they sent him a jacked up guitar, which he returned. Then they were dicks after the fact. lol



 

This was the whole point of my thread, not that Kiesel can't make a decent guitar, or that I was interested in defiling the company. They only do it to themselves by providing horrible customer service, an over sized ego, and the mistaken logic that brushing off unhappy customers isn't going to hurt their reputation. Pretty sure they've had more than one unhappy customer at this point, and their reputation is trending the wrong direction.

Their customer service alone was enough to have caused me to cancel my order or to have returned the guitar regardless of how it came out, and honestly I should have never even completed that transaction after the way that salesguy treated me; lesson learned. In hindsight, I should have told him to keep the guitar and refund my cc right then and there. 

I knew better than to go with any option 50 stuff, so I was good to go in the end and was refunded only having lost shipping one way. They tried to get me to bite on a custom serial # to commemorate their anniversary and celebrate their new factory if I was willing to forfeit any return policy


----------



## olejason

Keisel wants the prestige of being a 'custom shop' without putting the effort into the customer service required of such a title. Let's be honest, they either want you to use the online builder, do one quick phone call, or order a completed guitar. They're not set up, nor do they want, prolonged discussions or back and forth interactions about specs or player expectations.


----------



## Glades

"If there is something wrong, it gets cut in half. Seriously! In 1984 we said we don't make seconds. The customer is NOT our Quality Control department. The customer is NOT our Set-up department."

- Sterling Ball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_oXBvr8AhU


----------



## Glades

Jeff,

The fact that guitars like that even GET TO THE HANDS of your customers in that condition should make any business owner ASHAMED. That is absolutely unacceptable. Take some pride in your work, man.


----------



## noise in my mind

Glades said:


> Jeff,
> 
> The fact that guitars like that even GET TO THE HANDS of your customers in that condition should make any business owner ASHAMED. That is absolutely unacceptable. Take some pride in your work, man.



But they do. Remember "Custom Shop Pride" lol. ugh, I cringed typing that.


----------



## MetalHead40

olejason said:


> Keisel wants the prestige of being a 'custom shop' without putting the effort into the customer service required of such a title. Let's be honest, they either want you to use the online builder, do one quick phone call, or order a completed guitar. They're not set up, nor do they want, prolonged discussions or back and forth interactions about specs or player expectations.





Seems an accurate assessment, and how I'd perceive their attitude. 

I contemplated that build for a year and called in several times over that time period to ask quick questions, and every salesguy I talked with seemed short, uninterested, and portrayed an attitude that made me feel like all they really cared about was my cc#.


----------



## Seventhwave

MetalHead40 said:


> They tried to get me to bite on a custom serial # to commemorate their anniversary and celebrate their new factory if I was willing to forfeit any return policy




 

unreal. but not surprised


----------



## Science_Penguin

Threads like this confuse me...

I've never understood the need to defend, of all things, a guitar manufacturer, since, at the end of the day, they're just a company. They sell products, people buy them, and occasionally some screw-ups happen. And it happens with certain companies more often than others, which I think consumers should be made aware of so they can decide for themselves weather the risks are worth it.

What's there to gain from defending Kiesel? Hell, let's not even delve into specifics- what's there to gain from defending Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ANY guitar maker?

Is the worry that they'll lose money? If they're not making solid products or constantly screwing up customer service, maybe they ought to lose some profit- it might force them to start taking that sort of thing more seriously.
What do you gain if they make money? What do you lose if they lose money? Nothing, unless you're a shareholder. Really, it's more to your benefit as a consumer if companies are called into question on their policies more often, so they can start correcting them.

Is it a matter of pride? Do you feel the need to defend the companies you support with your money? You shouldn't. People bash Gibson all the time, and I know their QC hasn't been the best over the past few years, but if I should happen to find me a good Explorer in a shop, nothing's going to stop me from buying it. And, if someone who has a seething hatred for Gibson tells me I'm a fool for doing it, well... f... 'em! I got what I wanted.

Did you go on-record in the past saying a company's great, and you feel negative feedback from other people challenges that? Is the fear that you'll have to admit to yourself you might have given glowing recommendation to a company that has sub-par policies? You clearly had a good experience with the product(s) you bought from the company, someone else might not have. Both of those stories are perfectly valid and reflect either positively or negatively on the company- as they should! Both types of stories will help consumers who may be considering buying certain products get a feel for how consistently good or bad a company is.

I'm sorry for the rant, I just can't wrap my head around why this thread has gone on for seventeen bloody pages...


----------



## Vletrmx

Science_Penguin said:


> Threads like this confuse me...
> 
> I've never understood the need to defend, of all things, a guitar manufacturer, since, at the end of the day, they're just a company. They sell products, people buy them, and occasionally some screw-ups happen. And it happens with certain companies more often than others, which I think consumers should be made aware of so they can decide for themselves weather the risks are worth it.
> 
> What's there to gain from defending Kiesel? Hell, let's not even delve into specifics- what's there to gain from defending Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ANY guitar maker?



I think that kind of mentality exists outside of guitars too. For any given product or technology, there's a group of people who will latch on to it religiously. They all probably have their own reasons to hold such a strong connection to something, but a lot of the time I feel it's expressed as blind elitism. 

Try going to any forum that's dedicated to a specific product and you'll find a contingency of people who will defend their choices to the death and are unwilling to think rationally about things that exist outside that bubble. It's often entertaining too, since it leads to things like forum wars between competing products.


----------



## Rawkmann

Science_Penguin said:


> Threads like this confuse me...
> 
> I've never understood the need to defend, of all things, a guitar manufacturer, since, at the end of the day, they're just a company. They sell products, people buy them, and occasionally some screw-ups happen. And it happens with certain companies more often than others, which I think consumers should be made aware of so they can decide for themselves weather the risks are worth it.
> 
> What's there to gain from defending Kiesel? Hell, let's not even delve into specifics- what's there to gain from defending Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ANY guitar maker?
> 
> Is the worry that they'll lose money? If they're not making solid products or constantly screwing up customer service, maybe they ought to lose some profit- it might force them to start taking that sort of thing more seriously.
> What do you gain if they make money? What do you lose if they lose money? Nothing, unless you're a shareholder. Really, it's more to your benefit as a consumer if companies are called into question on their policies more often, so they can start correcting them.
> 
> Is it a matter of pride? Do you feel the need to defend the companies you support with your money? You shouldn't. People bash Gibson all the time, and I know their QC hasn't been the best over the past few years, but if I should happen to find me a good Explorer in a shop, nothing's going to stop me from buying it. And, if someone who has a seething hatred for Gibson tells me I'm a fool for doing it, well... f... 'em! I got what I wanted.
> 
> Did you go on-record in the past saying a company's great, and you feel negative feedback from other people challenges that? Is the fear that you'll have to admit to yourself you might have given glowing recommendation to a company that has sub-par policies? You clearly had a good experience with the product(s) you bought from the company, someone else might not have. Both of those stories are perfectly valid and reflect either positively or negatively on the company- as they should! Both types of stories will help consumers who may be considering buying certain products get a feel for how consistently good or bad a company is.
> 
> I'm sorry for the rant, I just can't wrap my head around why this thread has gone on for seventeen bloody pages...




Brand loyalty is a powerful thing. You'll see the same thing on car forums (Ford Vs. Chevy) or with video games (Playstation Vs. Xbox). At the end of the day, if I have a positive experience dealing with a company I will likely recommend them, and if it's negative then I won't and will probably caution others as well. Speaking on Gibson, I bought a new SG last year and just so happens its one of the best guitars I've ever owned. However I do realize that getting a stellar Gibson is a bit of a crap shoot, so I'd still tell people to proceed with caution. I'm still keeping up with this particular thread because I was one of the unfortunate ones who had bad dealings with Kiesel and maybe its just a morbid curiosity at this point to see how other people who had issues are being treated by them. If someone gets an amazing guitar from Kiesel, then fantastic! But it does seem pretty undeniable lately that the ratio of great ones to lemons has been tipping in favor of the latter.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Yeah, I get brand loyalty... but I don't GET it... if that makes sense...

I mean, I understand that it's a mindset people have, I just really don't understand why the mindset exists in the first place. When you stop to think about it, there's just no reason for it (again: unless you're a stockholder).

It's entertaining to watch, sure (which is why _I've_ been keeping up with this thread) but, after a while, I just can't help but call it all into question.


----------



## saminator

I'd imagine people who've purchased from a particular brand, especially ones as controversial as Kiesel, may cultivate a feeling of loyalty to justify said purchases to themselves. If they admit that the company screws up, perhaps that means they made a poor decision by buying something from that company.

Outside of that (and having stock in or working for said company), I wouldn't understand brand loyalty either...


----------



## Jeff

Jeffbro said:


> Carvin is not the same Kiesel, there are plenty of older carvins that are basically from another era.
> 
> Saying Kiesels are not on par with a PRS SE is a joke
> 
> If you consider american strats and prestiges high end, then Kiesels are high end.



So you're saying Kiesels are even better than 2005-2015 era Carvins?  Sure.

American Strats and Prestiges aren't high end, and yet they're both definitely a lot better than any Carvin or Kiesel I've owned or played. 

It must be exhausting to be a Kiesel apologist.


----------



## Jeffbro

Jeff said:


> So you're saying Kiesels are even better than 2005-2015 era Carvins?  Sure.
> 
> American Strats and Prestiges aren't high end, and yet they're both definitely a lot better than any Carvin or Kiesel I've owned or played.
> 
> It must be exhausting to be a Kiesel apologist.





Jeff said:


> *All five of the Carvins* I had weren't even on par with a PRS SE, so I don't know where people get "high end" from.



So you never owned a Kiesel, probably never even touched one. You also bought 5 carvins that were all apparently crap... not fishy at all. Classic signs of a bandwagon hater, exaggeration and making up BS.

Kiesels are no doubt better than older carvins, specs/design/woods/quality, that's not up for debate

Saying prestiges and american strats are not high end is straight snobbery, those are $1-2k+ professional level instruments, both are similar in quality to Kiesel

As I said before, I'm not biased in this discussion. I've had multiple Kiesels and sold all of them because they didn't quite fit my taste. But I can't deny they were all built very well. Their customer service needs work, they have some QC issues as do many other brands, but bashing their overall quality and value is unreasonable. Saying Kiesels are not on par with PRS SEs is absolutely wrong. No Kiesel has ever been straight traded for an SE.


----------



## mnemonic

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesels are no doubt better than older carvins, specs/design/woods/quality, that's not up for debate
> .



Why not? Just because its new doesnt mean it's better. I had never heard of design issues with a Carvin before, they have always been well balanced and well thought-out in my eperience. These bridge/saddle or maybe neck pocket issues that we can clearly see in the pictures posted in this thread lead me to believe a lot less time and effort has gone into the design of these new models.


----------



## marcwormjim

Jeffbro said:


> Saying Kiesels are not on par with PRS SEs is absolutely wrong. No Kiesel has ever been straight traded for an SE.



You heard it here, kiesel-hating, bandwagon hillary-voters: Not only are Kiesels on-par with PRS SEs, but trading a Kiesel for an SE is the true test of the brand's quality.


----------



## laxu

Science_Penguin said:


> Threads like this confuse me...
> 
> I've never understood the need to defend, of all things, a guitar manufacturer, since, at the end of the day, they're just a company. They sell products, people buy them, and occasionally some screw-ups happen. And it happens with certain companies more often than others, which I think consumers should be made aware of so they can decide for themselves weather the risks are worth it.



There's a difference between hyperbole and valid criticism. OP is perfectly good criticism against the brand. It seems that as this thread has gone on suddenly people who probably have never even tried a Kiesel are jumping on a hate bandwagon saying all they make is crap. Which is not true. Mob mentality does not help anyone and people are quick to ignore the various happy Kiesel owners even on this forum if you just search for NGD Kiesel threads.

Kiesel has issues that they should resolve. They need to improve their customer service so the treatment OP got does not happen. They need to make sure the QC issue OP had does not happen.

My experience with Kiesel is that they don't always make a perfect guitar, but I had nothing but good to say about the customer service I received. I can live with the very small cosmetic issues on mine because it meant I paid less money and received the guitar in much less time compared to going with a domestic custom builder or even most European ones. I will still recommend Kiesel guitars for people asking what they should get, especially if they live in the US where they are a really good deal IMO.


----------



## macgruber

Jeffbro said:


> As I said before, I'm not biased in this discussion.


----------



## Lemons

macgruber said:


> Jeffbro said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before, I'm not biased in this discussion.
Click to expand...


*anxiously clicks at where the "like" button used to be*


----------



## GuitarBizarre

Jeffbro is the most deluded member of this forum since Major Tom. 

Congratulations.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Science_Penguin said:


> What's there to gain from defending Kiesel? Hell, let's not even delve into specifics- what's there to gain from defending Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ANY guitar maker?



On-line bragging points? That warm, fuzzy feeling of submerging your vestigial individuality into that of a group collective? 5% off your next purchase?


----------



## Demiurge

FFS, "fake news" hysteria has hit the guitar market. Asteroid now.

But really, if this is what passes for a 'haters piling it on' thread, then maybe things are getting better. Look at the threads for Etherial or S7G- worlds different. Here, it seems that most of the posters are customers of the Carvin/Kiesel that have something to say from their experiences with customer service or build quality.


----------



## beerandbeards

Carl Kolchak said:


> On-line bragging points? That warm, fuzzy feeling of submerging your vestigial individuality into that of a group collective? 5% off your next purchase?



If there's 5% off my next EBMM then.....

Ernie Ball is the greatest manufacturer or guitars and all others suck. All bow down at the temple of Lord Petrucci and his guitar designs. Leo Fender was a loser. SAD!


----------



## cwhitey2

beerandbeards said:


> If there's 5% off my next EBMM then.....
> 
> Ernie Ball is the greatest manufacturer or guitars and all others suck. All bow down at the temple of Lord Petrucci and his guitar designs. Leo Fender was a loser. SAD!


----------



## Petar Bogdanov

Hey it's 150 free bucks! Youtube reviewers do it for less!


----------



## DarthV

Glades said:


> "If there is something wrong, it gets cut in half. Seriously! In 1984 we said we don't make seconds. The customer is NOT our Quality Control department. The customer is NOT our Set-up department."
> 
> - Sterling Ball
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_oXBvr8AhU



Just to give a fair and balanced take on that, it's not 100% true. I own 2 EBMMs and LOVE them. But my AD at work bought a JP7 many years ago that should not have left the shop floor. He still has the original neck... QC must have been blind drunk that day.

Then again, EBMM took care of the problem quickly.

Every company makes mistakes, it's how they handle them.


----------



## Bladed-Vaults

Jeff said:


> So you're saying Kiesels are even better than 2005-2015 era Carvins?  Sure.
> 
> American Strats and Prestiges aren't high end, and yet they're both definitely a lot better than any Carvin or Kiesel I've owned or played.
> t.



This subject to the hands of the player man. All of my carvins were good workhorse guitars sure but each had weird finish issues or some goofy thing to do with parts. My current keisel be it second hand is perfect. And as i stated before in this thread plays in direct comparison to my ebmm ball reserve in terms of playability. 
While someone else may not agree to that. I do.. while I would never ever order new from keisel saying their guitars as a whole aren't better than carvin is kind of biased on itself. They have a model with weird set up..... Jackson has a whole line of trash does that mean every Jackson is trash?

I know high talent players who spend more time on their mexi strats than their Americans because they love how the neck just jives for them. Its not up to you what feels good/quality to the next dude


----------



## Science_Penguin

Carl Kolchak said:


> 5% off your next purchase?



Is that the secret? Is everyone just secretly farming deals by fighting on forums?

If so, I think I know how I'm gonna get my hands on a sweet new Fender... I'm off to MyLesPaul!


----------



## Jeff

Jeffbro said:


> So you never owned a Kiesel, probably never even touched one. You also bought 5 carvins that were all apparently crap... not fishy at all. Classic signs of a bandwagon hater, exaggeration and making up BS.
> 
> Kiesels are no doubt better than older carvins, specs/design/woods/quality, that's not up for debate
> 
> Saying prestiges and american strats are not high end is straight snobbery, those are $1-2k+ professional level instruments, both are similar in quality to Kiesel
> 
> As I said before, I'm not biased in this discussion. I've had multiple Kiesels and sold all of them because they didn't quite fit my taste. But I can't deny they were all built very well. Their customer service needs work, they have some QC issues as do many other brands, but bashing their overall quality and value is unreasonable. Saying Kiesels are not on par with PRS SEs is absolutely wrong. No Kiesel has ever been straight traded for an SE.



I have had 5 Carvins, which became Kiesel. Do you not know the company history? Do you not know that for the last year or two you could select a Carvin OR Kiesel logo? Furthermore, I've played plenty of actual Kiesels that have come through our shop. 

Kiesels are no doubt better than older Carvins? That's completely subjective, and a borderline idiotic claim. 

I currently own "high end" Ibanez guitars, and they're my main players. They're certainly better than the Kiesels I've seen, and at the same time not at the level of Suhr, PRS, Anderson, or Knaggs. THOSE are high end guitars. 

You absolutely are the biggest apologist I've seen for a guitar brand in quite some time, and you're likely a Kiesel shill. You're immediate reaction to someone not sharing your viewpoint is a ridiculous "bandwagon hater" straw man. 

I'd love to see the huge number of threads started by people here, TGP, R-T, MG.org, etc. where someone's super angry about a Schecter, PRS SE, or Ibanez in the way people are with Kiesel.


----------



## Overtone

I don't get it.... what's the problem here?


----------



## Jeff

Bladed-Vaults said:


> This subject to the hands of the player man. All of my carvins were good workhorse guitars sure but each had weird finish issues or some goofy thing to do with parts. My current keisel be it second hand is perfect. And as i stated before in this thread plays in direct comparison to my ebmm ball reserve in terms of playability.
> While someone else may not agree to that. I do.. while I would never ever order new from keisel saying their guitars as a whole aren't better than carvin is kind of biased on itself. They have a model with weird set up..... Jackson has a whole line of trash does that mean every Jackson is trash?
> 
> I know high talent players who spend more time on their mexi strats than their Americans because they love how the neck just jives for them. Its not up to you what feels good/quality to the next dude



Does Kiesel have a line of import guitars, as well as American-made guitars? No. Not really a valid comparison. 

I find it amusing that as soon as a different sticker goes on a guitar, people think that a guitar made by the same people is actually somehow better.

Furthermore, I'm not faulting people playing Strats, Ibanez, whatever. But to say that somehow Kiesel is a high end guitar is absurd, in my opinion. PRS Core, Suhr, Anderson, Knaggs, etc. That's high end.


----------



## Overtone

PSYCHE!


Seriously though, some people there do have a stick up their ass. I've only played a couple of Carvin's (including one that I own) and they seem like pretty good instruments, but I distinctly remember the last time I called them about something relating to my hardware the person I spoke to was acting like it was super inconvenient for him to have to talk to me and giving out bad vibes. After the call I thought about it for a while, wondering what I could have possibly done to put him off, and it became pretty clear to me that the guy just had a huge chip on his shoulder. How is a customer supposed to resolve anything when the person they have to talk to is like that? Instead of dealing with it I spent the money to buy replacement hardware from Headless USA, who were super informative, professional and helpful.


----------



## Bladed-Vaults

I think. People mistake price for "high end" Alot of the time. Ibby currently has a 1400 buck indo made guitar. I would bet my family jewles. That a 1400 bucks specs keisel that is well set up will be 3 maybe 4x the guitar of the indo ibby.

I think we might not be on the same page though i didn't mean to portray I think keisel is "high end" but my current one sure as s*** plays like one. And they most certainly aren't to be compared to a mass produced mij guitar. 
The keisels that leave the shop with no problems are great priced musicians guitars with a very decent set ofnoptions. I wouldn't be broken hearted to take mine in tour if for some odd reason I took off as a player. While I'd be worried about hiccuping to hard with a prs core in my hands. 

Again to reiterate. I would never buy new from them poor customer service and wait times that are currently in the mix puts me off from giving keisel my money directly.


----------



## prlgmnr

That factory vid really makes me want a Musicman but there aren't really that many that I like. Maybe could go in for an Axis.


----------



## Jeffbro

Jeff said:


> I have had 5 Carvins, which became Kiesel. Do you not know the company history? Do you not know that for the last year or two you could select a Carvin OR Kiesel logo? Furthermore, I've played plenty of actual Kiesels that have come through our shop.
> 
> Kiesels are no doubt better than older Carvins? That's completely subjective, and a borderline idiotic claim.
> 
> *I currently own "high end" Ibanez guitars, and they're my main players. They're certainly better than the Kiesels I've seen, and at the same time not at the level of Suhr, PRS, Anderson, or Knaggs. THOSE are high end guitars. *



You're sound like the biggest gear snob. Does high end just mean ridiculous price to you? Because your fancy guitars certainly don't play better than my $500 used prestiges.

I suggest you check out the prestige vs kiesel thread in the FAQ section and report back.

As others have attested, Kiesels are better than older carvins. You claiming Kiesels are worse than PRS SEs is actually idiotic.

Btw you still haven't explained why you bought 5 Kiesel/carvins that you think are junk. You're either not right in the head or lying.


----------



## JSanta

Jeffbro said:


> You're sound like the biggest gear snob. Does high end just mean ridiculous price to you? Because your fancy guitars certainly don't play better than my $500 used prestiges.
> 
> I suggest you check out the prestige vs kiesel thread in the FAQ section and report back.
> 
> As others have attested, Kiesels are better than older carvins. You claiming Kiesels are worse than PRS SEs is actually idiotic.
> 
> Btw you still haven't explained why you bought 5 Kiesel/carvins that you think are junk. You're either not right in the head or lying.



I have a Carvin from 2003 and a Kiesel from 2015. There is no discernible difference in quality. The neck on my 2003 is the most stable of any guitar I've owned other than a Parker.


----------



## Jeff

Jeffbro said:


> You're sound like the biggest gear snob. Does high end just mean ridiculous price to you? Because your fancy guitars certainly don't play better than my $500 used prestiges.
> 
> I suggest you check out the prestige vs kiesel thread in the FAQ section and report back.
> 
> As others have attested, Kiesels are better than older carvins. You claiming Kiesels are worse than PRS SEs is actually idiotic.
> 
> Btw you still haven't explained why you bought 5 Kiesel/carvins that you think are junk. You're either not right in the head or lying.



I bought 5 Carvins over the course of about 7 years. I wanted to like them, because the concept and the specs are fantastic. The execution just really sucks. I learned my lesson, and have been sticking to other stuff since. 

You can shout at the clouds that comparing them to PRS SE's or Schecters is idiotic, yet I've seen less issues on WMI instruments than I have Carvins and Kiesels. 

But please, IM me again with another declaration of bull.....


----------



## Randy

Jeffbro said:


> You're sound like the biggest gear snob. Does high end just mean ridiculous price to you? Because your fancy guitars certainly don't play better than my $500 used prestiges.
> 
> I suggest you check out the prestige vs kiesel thread in the FAQ section and report back.
> 
> As others have attested, Kiesels are better than older carvins. You claiming Kiesels are worse than PRS SEs is actually idiotic.
> 
> Btw you still haven't explained why you bought 5 Kiesel/carvins that you think are junk. You're either not right in the head or lying.



Can it with the insults or you're getting a nap. You can disagree without being uncivil.


----------



## marcwormjim

You'll find he cannot.

Ignoring that, it's worth mentioning that a former aspect of Carvin's factory-direct marketing was that their guitars should be compared to American brands costing twice as much. 

My Carvin was about on-par with the nicest stuff coming out of WMI Korea, minus a paint run on the neck and a burr in the Sperzel tuner that broke strings like crazy. The $1500-new price went toward American wages, but the average resale of the brand being 40-50% of the new price is appropriate when listing against new, $900 Korean Schecters. 

Jeffbrah claiming that "high-end" brands with quality more consistent than Kiesel don't count as high-end.. because only snobs pay more than what Jeffbrah paid for his used prestige...is his best post yet (topping his post attacking a British poster's criticism as being nothing more than jealousy of the US being made great again by Donald Trump).

The Parkers, Suhrs, and PRSs I've tried or owned were simply made to a higher standard than my Carvin, and their MAP prices reflected that. That you can find those brands used for less than many new Kiesels are commonly specc'd out for makes price a moot point (unless you're limiting the new price-point discussion to warranty against factory defects, which Kiesel is currently taking heat for). The Kiesels I've tried at recent NAMMs were fine - But to say guitars are being built to a higher standard than before the split is just dragging the Carvin name through the mud Kiesel's been slinging.


----------



## Rawkmann

Jeffbro said:


> As others have attested, Kiesels are better than older carvins.



Not in my experience. I used to own a Carvin Singlecut made in the 70s and a DC200 from the early 90s that were of better quality than any Kiesel branded guitar I've played so far.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jeffbro said:


> *You're either not right in the head *or lying.





Also, how could someone be an "expensive gear snob", yet say they love Korean-built guitars over more expensive, Americanmade guitars?


----------



## feraledge

I find it hilarious that the one person here solely to defend the brand is probably the only real reason this thread is still alive. Despite the fact that another thread over the same issue with another Aries has kicked up now too!


----------



## marcwormjim

Pages 7-18 may as well be a separate thread.


----------



## Seventhwave

I've owned 3 Carvins. They were all nicely made guitars. But I wouldn't pretend like they were miraculously better than anything else in the $1k-$1500 price point. About on par for the most part. 

Seems to me that a lot of people like to think that because they're semi-custom and you're buying them direct that you're getting a guitar that's "better" than the price would reflect. Simply isn't the case. If it was, there's no reason why Jeff and co. wouldn't be charging twice as much for them. (Appears he's trying to move into that territory with the K Series stuff testing the market). Jeff doesn't miss an opportunity to let his customers know that they would be paying more for them if they wen't through a distributor and it always comes off as "we're doing you a favor". No, you're not. 

It's not really snobbery. They do make nice guitars. I would argue that snobbery would be assuming a USA made guitar is automatically going to be nicer than a PRS SE or something else made overseas.


----------



## Jeffbro

marcwormjim said:


> You'll find he cannot.
> 
> My Carvin was about on-par with the nicest stuff coming out of WMI Korea,
> 
> (topping his post attacking a British poster's criticism as being nothing more than jealousy of the US being made great again by Donald Trump).
> 
> That you can find those brands used for less than many new Kiesels are commonly specc'd out for



1. I make my points, but I'm never the one to start insults

2. Quote the posts, see who started it (hint.. the british guy), but thanks for your support of Trump

3. So you're comparing prices of USED PRODUCTION models to a NEW well spec'ed CUSTOM build.


----------



## narad

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesels are no doubt better than older carvins, specs/design/woods/quality, that's not up for debate



Umm... Design!? 







Woods? 

I think many guys like me curse the day Kiesel discovered poplar burl. What a nightmare.

Specs?

Yea, there's more. The world's changed. I suppose I can give this one to you. The old school Carvins had really appropriate specs for the kinds of instruments most people wanted. And they definitely had less of these abominations which are like status quo at Kiesel:






Quality?

I don't know what to say to this, or how anyone would ever begin to start supporting this with real evidence. However, Carvin customer support used to be really great. Or maybe it was just harder for any of their employees to post newspaper ads that criticized its customers than it is to do today on the internet.

This is all just to say, no one's going to come in and say that it's not up for debate. It's entirely subjective. I had a lot of respect for Carvin back in the day, always excited when the catalog came in the mail. I have about 0% desire to get any version of any Kiesel today. It takes a lot to turn those kinds of opinions around, but 10,000 gawdy poplar asymmetrically bursted guitars and countless bad customer service stories later, here we are.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jeffbro said:


> You're sound like the biggest gear snob. Does high end just mean ridiculous price to you? Because your fancy guitars certainly don't play better than my $500 used prestiges.
> 
> I suggest you check out the prestige vs kiesel thread in the FAQ section and report back.
> 
> As others have attested, Kiesels are better than older carvins. You claiming Kiesels are worse than PRS SEs is actually idiotic.
> 
> Btw you still haven't explained why you bought 5 Kiesel/carvins that you think are junk. You're either not right in the head or lying.



My skervys absolutely play better then your prestiges


----------



## Jeffbro

diagrammatiks said:


> My skervys absolutely play better then your prestiges



Better neck finish? No...
Better fretwork? No...
Better bridge? No...
More comfortable? Subjective... I like thin necks and flat tops

Next...


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jeffbro said:


> Better neck finish? No...
> Better fretwork? No...
> Better bridge? No...
> More comfortable? Subjective... I like thin necks and flat tops
> 
> Next...




yes to all those things. I like thin necks and flat tops too. what the hell kind of skervesens are you looking at.


----------



## Mattykoda

Jeffbro said:


> Better neck finish? No...
> Better fretwork? No...
> Better bridge? No...
> More comfortable? Subjective... I like thin necks and flat tops
> 
> Next...



Jeff you need to find yourself a lady bro..... damn


----------



## narad

Mattykoda said:


> Jeff you need to find yourself a lady bro..... damn



If he's this cynical about guitars...


----------



## Jeff

diagrammatiks said:


> yes to all those things. I like thin necks and flat tops too. what the hell kind of skervesens are you looking at.



Not worth it. This kid is the type that'll say he likes liver wurst more than pizza, just so he can disagree and keep the argument going.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jeff said:


> Not worth it. This kid is the type that'll say he likes liver wurst more than pizza, just so he can disagree and keep the argument going.



I mean, if you hate liverwurst, you're obviously retarded. 







i still can't believe someone said that about ....ing guitars


----------



## Jeff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean, if you hate liverwurst, you're obviously retarded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i still can't believe someone said that about ....ing guitars



That's right. I compared guitars to liver wurst. A guaranteed first.


----------



## noise in my mind

Jeffbro said:


> Better neck finish? No...
> Better fretwork? No...
> Better bridge? No...
> More comfortable? Subjective... I like thin necks and flat tops
> 
> Next...



Have you played a skervsen?


----------



## Science_Penguin

narad said:


> If he's this cynical about guitars...



Better t.ts? No...
Better ass? No...
Better sex? Subjective...


----------



## Jeffbro

diagrammatiks said:


> yes to all those things. I like thin necks and flat tops too. what the hell kind of skervesens are you looking at.



Lmao you people are obsessed about me and go against anything I say.

Put a prestige up against any fancy skerv/mayo/suhr/prs whatever

Run your hand down the neck, does Ibanez feel worse? No, the satin prestige finish is one of the best.

Feel the fret ends, is either one smoother? Likely no.

Get the action to minimum without buzz, is either one lower? Also likely no.

We all know the edge/tight end/gibralter bridge are the best on the market.

To everyone defending your $3k "high end" guitars and saying "low end" Kiesels/prestiges aren't on par. You're just paying for name and exotic woods, not a functionally better guitar. Truth hurts.


----------



## Mattykoda

^ Some people just need hugs daily


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jeffbro said:


> Lmao you people are obsessed about me and go against anything I say.
> 
> Put a prestige up against any fancy skerv/mayo/suhr/prs whatever
> 
> Run your hand down the neck, does Ibanez feel worse? No, the satin prestige finish is one of the best.
> 
> Feel the fret ends, is either one smoother? Likely no.
> 
> Get the action to minimum without buzz, is either one lower? Also likely no.
> 
> We all know the edge/tight end/gibralter bridge are the best on the market.
> 
> To everyone defending your $3k "high end" guitars and saying "low end" Kiesels/prestiges aren't on par. You're just paying for name and exotic woods, not a functionally better guitar. Truth hurts.



ya man. i own 2 skervs, 2 prestige ibanez's, a prs, 2 anderson, and 2 kiesels. 
hit me with that truth.


----------



## A-Branger

Mattykoda said:


> ^ Some people just need hugs daily


----------



## Semi-pro

^^ While I think this point blank "brand x is better than brand y" is dumb, and didn't want to keep this going, it still made me want to say this:

_All brands have at least some level of inconsistency_. Without trying yourself, NGD's and rant topics with well argumented content will tell you that.

-I have owned an EBMM that had the worst intonation of any +500EUR guitars I've owned. It went to a bunch of techs. I got notes from band mates that I'm not in tune (only when playing certain frets on certain strings), and also heard it myself. Also when playing along records. Not trying to bash them, that was just a dud and I accept it. Because _every _brand has them, one in a thousand or 999 in a thousand. It varies.
-My Ormsby GTR is ridiculously good and comparable to any high-end guitars I've had. But the neck shape is something I've had to get used to more than usually. Customer service A+.
-I've owned 3 Mayones guitars, 2 with flaws that shouldn't be in +2k guitars. Also a good bunch of the ones I've tried in a shop have had dumb stuff like wonky pots or a creaking floyd nut (meaning that it isn't installed dead flush with the end of the fretboard). Also have a friend who worked in a shop that sold them. He made it clear that he'll never own one. Still there are a lot of people who praise them, and my current Setius makes me understand that. Talking with the customer service has been ok. Not super great but not awkward either.
-My Aries is the most ergonomic super strat I've ever touched. It also stays in tune through a war. Still, the part of the strings that go through the body vibrate and I've to mute it with something when recording. Also the saddles are just high enough that I've had to file the sharp corner of the low-b string. Still consider this minor stuff compared to the overall quality of the guitar. 
-My UV7BK is sometimes the best guitar ever, sometimes a bitch to setup (ok, I play and maintain it very rarely).

My point is: there is a 100% chance that a lot of people have totally different experiences of those same exact brands. Stop generalizing. Take note of which brands have more good/bad rep than others. And especially pay attention to how they handle the issues.

Sorry to keep this thread alive, but I've came back to it many times and not said a word 

/rant.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Semi-pro said:


> ^^ While I think this point blank "brand x is better than brand y" is dumb, and didn't want to keep this going, it still made me want to say this:
> 
> _All brands have at least some level of inconsistency_. Without trying yourself, NGD's and rant topics with well argumented content will tell you that.
> 
> -I have owned an EBMM that had the worst intonation of any +500EUR guitars I've owned. It went to a bunch of techs. I got notes from band mates that I'm not in tune (only when playing certain frets on certain strings), and also heard it myself. Also when playing along records. Not trying to bash them, that was just a dud and I accept it. Because _every _brand has them, one in a thousand or 999 in a thousand. It varies.
> -My Ormsby GTR is ridiculously good and comparable to any high-end guitars I've had. But the neck shape is something I've had to get used to more than usually. Customer service A+.
> -I've owned 3 Mayones guitars, 2 with flaws that shouldn't be in +2k guitars. Also a good bunch of the ones I've tried in a shop have had dumb stuff like wonky pots or a creaking floyd nut (meaning that it isn't installed dead flush with the end of the fretboard). Also have a friend who worked in a shop that sold them. He made it clear that he'll never own one. Still there are a lot of people who praise them, and my current Setius makes me understand that. Talking with the customer service has been ok. Not super great but not awkward either.
> -My Aries is the most ergonomic super strat I've ever touched. It also stays in tune through a war. Still, the part of the strings that go through the body vibrate and I've to mute it with something when recording. Also the saddles are just high enough that I've had to file the sharp corner of the low-b string. Still consider this minor stuff compared to the overall quality of the guitar.
> -My UV7BK is sometimes the best guitar ever, sometimes a bitch to setup (ok, I play and maintain it very rarely).
> 
> My point is: there is a 100% chance that a lot of people have totally different experiences of those same exact brands. Stop generalizing. Take note of which brands have more good/bad rep than others. And especially pay attention to how they handle the issues.
> 
> Sorry to keep this thread alive, but I've came back to it many times and not said a word
> 
> /rant.



I wish there was more posts like this, instead of either "Kiesel is worse than $200 chinese made guitars" or "Kiesel is better than a $10,000 guitar" posts.. Seems people can't understand there IS a middle ground, and in the end, any guitar above a certain pricepoint is not about quality as much as it is about personal preferences.. 

I've learned this early on when I had a friend come visit me who owned really boutique (at the time) guitars and I could only afford mid-tier Ibanez's, and honestly I didn't really care too much for his crazy boutique guitars. Sure, they cost 15x as much as my guitar, but whatever. Didn't do it for me. Guitars that got AMAZING praise on ss.org as if nothing was comparable back in 2006. I was expecting it to be like driving a ferrari compared to a honda, but it wasn't really that different in the end. Just different specs. More like driving a truck vs driving a car.


----------



## Jeff

Of course there's going to be a middle ground. What's worrisome about Kiesel is the number of awful guitars they're letting out of QC, with either cosmetic or major structural issues, followed by absolute dog.... customer service. It's the combination of the two that's inexcusable. 
And it's not just here. It's also many other boards. The Aries, while being a pretty cool looking guitar, obviously has a very significant design flaw to it, when it comes to using the Hipshot. The fact that they won't admit it is sad.


----------



## Bladed-Vaults

While I do agree skervesen is on an entirely different t level than both keisel and production prestiges........ People in here keep bashing keisel for flashy burl tops and paint......... but the same people would take a neon green burst poplar skerv and stick it in their ass then call it gold.... 

It's one thing to hate a company because they treated you **** but an entirely different thing to just hate... there people on this forum who if keisel out out the 100% identical item as brand x down to the most minute spec.... for 1k less than brand x. They're sit there and tell you to your face the keisel is junk.... just cuz they hate kiesel. 

Again. Does their customer service blow.. yeah. Aside from one model are their guitars worth the 1-low2k price point. Generally yes.... do people think the earth is flat? It's 2017 and still yes


----------



## Jeff

Bladed-Vaults said:


> While I do agree skervesen is on an entirely different t level than both keisel and production prestiges........ People in here keep bashing keisel for flashy burl tops and paint......... but the same people would take a neon green burst poplar skerv and stick it in their ass then call it gold....
> 
> It's one thing to hate a company because they treated you **** but an entirely different thing to just hate... there people on this forum who if keisel out out the 100% identical item as brand x down to the most minute spec.... for 1k less than brand x. They're sit there and tell you to your face the keisel is junk.... just cuz they hate kiesel.
> 
> Again. Does their customer service blow.. yeah. Aside from one model are their guitars worth the 1-low2k price point. Generally yes.... do people think the earth is flat? It's 2017 and still yes



I don't bash Kiesel for their appearance; most of their designs (excluding their most recent one that they released at NAMM, which is fugly) are pretty cool, and you can get straight black if you wanted. It's not like they're forcing everyone to get California Drunk Surfer Vomit finishes on all their guitars.


----------



## Bladed-Vaults

Jeff said:


> I don't bash Kiesel for their appearance; most of their designs (excluding their most recent one that they released at NAMM, which is fugly) are pretty cool, and you can get straight black if you wanted. It's not like they're forcing everyone to get California Drunk Surfer Vomit finishes on all their guitars.




Bahahah I won't deny they do have a strange push for the more odd finish #goarctic #haveyougoneheadlesspurpleburstmetallicyet?
"This hugger Orange with purple metal flakes has to be my favorite even though I've said the last 28 finish options are also my favorite"


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Jeffbro said:


> Lmao you people are obsessed about me and go against anything I say.
> 
> Put a prestige up against any fancy skerv/mayo/suhr/prs whatever
> 
> Run your hand down the neck, does Ibanez feel worse? No, the satin prestige finish is one of the best.
> 
> Feel the fret ends, is either one smoother? Likely no.
> 
> Get the action to minimum without buzz, is either one lower? Also likely no.
> 
> We all know the edge/tight end/gibralter bridge are the best on the market.
> 
> To everyone defending your $3k "high end" guitars and saying "low end" Kiesels/prestiges aren't on par. You're just paying for name and exotic woods, not a functionally better guitar. Truth hurts.




Man can't believe I am saying this but he does have a point. IT seems like high end brands charge a lot more because their name, woods, and build quality. 

But honestly, it depends on the person. I feel like we are all missing the big picture here. You don't need to justify your purchases. Nor do you need to justify your brand loyalty. 

I have a V8 in the oven and hoping to god I have no issues down the road with it. 

This thread has become nothing but arguing and accusing people of being Jeff  

I AM SPARTACUS!


----------



## BigViolin

State your opinion, offer a (as in one) rebuttal as needed then move on.

Good advice right there.

Nah, F it, let's go for 20!


----------



## canuck brian

Jeffbro said:


> Better neck finish? No...
> Better fretwork? No...
> Better bridge? No...
> More comfortable? Subjective... I like thin necks and flat tops
> 
> Next...



yes on all of those actually. I've had all three of the guitar brands in question in my collection and on my bench. Skervesson wins.

If you're going to compare Suhr to a Carvin/Kiesel and say Kiesels are built better, I'm just going to put you in the "shill" category.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Bladed-Vaults said:


> Bahahah I won't deny they do have a strange push for the more odd finish #goarctic #haveyougoneheadlesspurpleburstmetallicyet?
> "This hugger Orange with purple metal flakes has to be my favorite even though I've said the last 28 finish options are also my favorite"



gotta sell guitars somehow, guess nasty finishes like peptobismol and moldy green are what the people want


----------



## bostjan

Dang.

If you like a certain brand, go for that brand. It's not like playing a Kiesel will give you cancer.

On the other hand, though, there have been a lot of allegations that Kiesel's QC and, especially, CS departments are lacking oversight. It's a very difficult thing to stop spreading once word of mouth takes hold. The thing is, if one or two customers complain vocally, it must be rough for the company, but if dozens of customers are complaining, then it must be bad for the customers.


----------



## Science_Penguin

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I have a V8 in the oven and hoping to god I have no issues down the road with it.



I don't think cooking it will help...


----------



## Zado

Never seen a guitar brand with this number of haters really lol. This should really raise some questions


----------



## JSanta

I loved Carvin guitars, and the Kiesel I have is built beautifully. I even really like their new pickups. 

However, I HATE this new marketing thing they're doing. Would it prevent me from buying another guitar from them in the future? Maybe. The customer service is the deal breaker for me (I had a Vader built that didn't turn out cosmetically how I wanted, and they had no issue taking it back, Jeff then does a video with with saying how gorgeous the quilt was and there were dead spots all over the figure), but they built me a DC700 that is wonderful. It's easy to be nice to people and make sure they're happy. With issues being so easily brought into the light because of boards like this, you'd think a company would really want to have stellar CS. Even a "sorry I was rude yesterday" email can prevent a lot.


----------



## dmlinger

I skipped over the last several posts. Came here to comment on comparing specs of Brand1 vs Brand2...

Both brands can offer the same specs - we all know that. Burl tops, satin finish, stainless frets, hipshot hardware, whatever...

Specs aren't the determining factor in a guitar's quality. It is the execution of the manufacturing process that makes a guitar great.


----------



## canuck brian

dmlinger said:


> Specs aren't the determining factor in a guitar's quality. It is the execution of the manufacturing process that makes a guitar great.



This is 100% true. 

Kiesel hasn't figured out that it's the execution of customer service and support that makes a BRAND great.


----------



## narad

Bladed-Vaults said:


> While I do agree skervesen is on an entirely different t level than both keisel and production prestiges........ People in here keep bashing keisel for flashy burl tops and paint......... but the same people would take a neon green burst poplar skerv and stick it in their ass then call it gold....



Skervesen's about the only company that can one-up Keisel when it comes to bad taste in specs. I mean, I think both companies attract the same kinds of customers. You know, the kinds of customers that bring up butt stuff when comparing two guitar brands.


----------



## bostjan

I mean, I could start a new guitar building company, create a website, and list more options than any other brand on that site. It wouldn't mean anything about whether my product was better than anyone else's. And, I think that's kind of the lesson to be learned here.


----------



## Overtone




----------



## Señor Voorhees

KnightBrolaire said:


> gotta sell guitars somehow, guess nasty finishes like peptobismol and moldy green are what the people want



I actually custom ordered a pepto pink aries thank you very much. lol

I do agree that they try to push fugly colors though. I hate when there's a flame maple top, blue to yellow burst, unpainted binding, then a purple back. The worst part about those is that Jeff comes up with them personally. Most of the really ugly finishes come out of Jeff's head. People pay extra to have him work on the guitars personally. I'll pay extra for him to never look at mine. lol


----------



## Bladed-Vaults

narad said:


> Skervesen's about the only company that can one-up Keisel when it comes to bad taste in specs. I mean, I think both companies attract the same kinds of customers. You know, the kinds of customers that bring up butt stuff when comparing two guitar brands.




You have a problem with butt stuff  
I'm a soldier in the states man... butt stuff is the most humane conversation etiquette I am capable of anymore


----------



## technomancer

So to shift this back to actual issues, has anybody seen that the Vader trems apparently have routing issues? Two guys on the Groomed Noodlers Facebook group have had issues with theirs that when you pull up the trem hits the cavity and shifts on the post.

Has anybody else seen anything about it anywhere else or are these just two instruments that had a routing errors?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Señor Voorhees;4722197 said:


> I actually custom ordered a pepto pink aries thank you very much. lol
> 
> I do agree that they try to push fugly colors though. I hate when there's a flame maple top, blue to yellow burst, unpainted binding, then a purple back. The worst part about those is that Jeff comes up with them personally. Most of the really ugly finishes come out of Jeff's head. People pay extra to have him work on the guitars personally. I'll pay extra for him to never look at mine. lol



i liked it better when everyone just tried to emulate PRS's finishes instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. It's like people don't understand the idea of contrasting colors or in the case of fades, complementary colors.


----------



## thinkpad20

KnightBrolaire said:


> i liked it better when everyone just tried to emulate PRS's finishes instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. It's like people don't understand the idea of contrasting colors or in the case of fades, complementary colors.



Surprised to hear this coming from you, since in your own projects you seem to favor a lot of color choices that probably most would consider kind of "out there"...


----------



## xzacx

technomancer said:


> So to shift this back to actual issues, has anybody seen that the Vader trems apparently have routing issues? Two guys on the Groomed Noodlers Facebook group have had issues with theirs that when you pull up the trem hits the cavity and shifts on the post.
> 
> Has anybody else seen anything about it anywhere else or are these just two instruments that had a routing errors?



I saw a picture (I believe posted earlier in this thread) and thought it looked like there was a routing problem, but I haven't head any more about it. Looked obvious from the pic though.

Edit - here it is:



-JeKo- said:


>


----------



## technomancer

^ That photo is from one of the guys. I believe the guitar is on the way back to Kiesel for evaluation. The other one was the same issue but the owner is handy so rather than paying for return shipping he just broke out his router and fixed the route. I believe the issue with that one was that the route was a bit off center so it was rubbing on one side vs hitting in the front.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

thinkpad20 said:


> Surprised to hear this coming from you, since in your own projects you seem to favor a lot of color choices that probably most would consider kind of "out there"...



 if blue to red fades and purple to red fades are "out there", sure. Unless you mean this abomination, which was just for fun:


----------



## technomancer

technomancer said:


> ^ That photo is from one of the guys. I believe the guitar is on the way back to Kiesel for evaluation. The other one was the same issue but the owner is handy so rather than paying for return shipping he just broke out his router and fixed the route. I believe the issue with that one was that the route was a bit off center so it was rubbing on one side vs hitting in the front.



The other guy just updated, Kiesel apparently claimed there was nothing wrong with the guitar after looking at it and returned it... but the route was miraculously bigger when he got it back


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> The other guy just updated, Kiesel apparently claimed there was nothing wrong with the guitar after looking at it and returned it... but the route was miraculously bigger when he got it back



God kiesel is all over the place with their qc lately...


----------



## cwhitey2

technomancer said:


> The other guy just updated, Kiesel apparently claimed there was nothing wrong with the guitar after looking at it and returned it... but the route was miraculously bigger when he got it back



I don't understand what's wrong with admitting you made a mistake 

Nothing is perfect 100% of the time.


I mentioned earlier in this thread I'm in the customer service industry and high volume production. We literally had a meeting today about our 1% error rate (for reference we completed 250,000 orders over the fiscal year). My manager said we need to get that .5%. I laughed in his face.


People will make mistakes.... But how you handle those mistakes are more important then just about anything. 


You don't ever want a customer feeling like a company never gave a crap about the order and that's exactly what Kiesel is doing. Sad really.


----------



## MetalHead40

cwhitey2 said:


> I don't understand what's wrong with admitting you made a mistake
> 
> Nothing is perfect 100% of the time.
> 
> 
> I mentioned earlier in this thread I'm in the customer service industry and high volume production. We literally had a meeting today about our 1% error rate (for reference we completed 250,000 orders over the fiscal year). My manager said we need to get that .5%. I laughed in his face.
> 
> 
> People will make mistakes.... But how you handle those mistakes are more important then just about anything.
> 
> 
> You don't ever want a customer feeling like a company never gave a crap about the order and that's exactly what Kiesel is doing. Sad really.



That's the biggest problem they have right now IMO. Admitting when there is a legitimate problem with a particular guitar. They really need to get over themselves and the ridiculous ego and just make things right with customers that have legitimate issues.


----------



## oracles

cwhitey2 said:


> I don't understand what's wrong with admitting you made a mistake



This is what I don't get. It's not hard for Jeff to stand in front of the camera and say "We've experienced a few hiccups, but we're doing everything we can to work with the affected customers and set things right" and a whole sh*tload of this negative PR would begin to unwind.Who can fault them for owning it, showing that they do care, and are taking steps to fix it? 

The image they're cultivating around not owning mistakes, openly trashing the customer across social media, and the overt aggression displayed in their general marketing is considerably more harmful than good. Even the longtime Carvin guys are getting tired of trying to put out fires across forums, they've run out of justifications for it at this point and have just seceded to the fact that Jeff is slowly running the brand they like into the ground.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Science_Penguin said:


> I don't think cooking it will help...




Damn it. Touche sir. But I Wanted a baked fretboard


----------



## thinkpad20

KnightBrolaire said:


> if blue to red fades and purple to red fades are "out there", sure. Unless you mean this abomination, which was just for fun:



 well that was in part what I was referring to, but in general I think you have a somewhat unique take on color fades. It's not like it's bizarre, but certainly not your standard sunburst or tobacco burst or whatever. This is a good thing by the way  just sayin' the comment was surprising to me. Although it may likely have been in jest anyway ¯\_(&#12484_/¯


----------



## KnightBrolaire

thinkpad20 said:


> well that was in part what I was referring to, but in general I think you have a somewhat unique take on color fades. It's not like it's bizarre, but certainly not your standard sunburst or tobacco burst or whatever. This is a good thing by the way  just sayin' the comment was surprising to me. Although it may likely have been in jest anyway ¯\_(&#12484_/¯


----------



## diagrammatiks

moment of silence...man responsible for keeping this thread alive way past the point of reasonability...banned again.


----------



## exo

diagrammatiks said:


> moment of silence...man responsible for keeping this thread alive way past the point of reasonability...banned again.



Shocking.


----------



## oversteve

technomancer said:


> ^ That photo is from one of the guys. I believe the guitar is on the way back to Kiesel for evaluation. The other one was the same issue but the owner is handy so rather than paying for return shipping he just broke out his router and fixed the route. I believe the issue with that one was that the route was a bit off center so it was rubbing on one side vs hitting in the front.



maybe there's nothing big in here and it just should be considered as a topmount trem and not intended to move the other way at all? cause if you check the other side of the trem the routing will not allow it as well


----------



## couverdure

Is this the current Kiesel hate thread?

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to talk about, but where did all the recent endorsement deals with current big name bands, especially in metalcore, come from? They weren't a big brand name with them when they were still called Carvin.

Also their website looks like it's still stuck in the Web 1.0 era (no offense to this site though).


----------



## diagrammatiks

couverdure said:


> Is this the current Kiesel hate thread?
> 
> I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to talk about, but where did all the recent endorsement deals with current big name bands, especially in metalcore, come from? They weren't a big brand name with them when they were still called Carvin.
> 
> Also their website looks like it's still stuck in the Web 1.0 era (no offense to this site though).



I mean endorsements are partly marketing. Jeff probably made a decision to try and woo some bigger names.


----------



## GuitarBizarre

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean endorsements are partly marketing. Jeff probably made a decision to try and woo some bigger names.


Endorsements are 100% marketing, never assume otherwise. 

Hell, there are entire guitar models built for endorsers, that they hate and were only made due to marketing pressure. 

Remember the ESP Axxion? Dave played that thing once, mentioned it in like 2 interviews and then it disappeared forever - because he hated it.


----------



## laxu

Semi-pro said:


> ^^ While I think this point blank "brand x is better than brand y" is dumb, and didn't want to keep this going, it still made me want to say this:
> 
> _All brands have at least some level of inconsistency_. Without trying yourself, NGD's and rant topics with well argumented content will tell you that.
> 
> -I have owned an EBMM that had the worst intonation of any +500EUR guitars I've owned. It went to a bunch of techs. I got notes from band mates that I'm not in tune (only when playing certain frets on certain strings), and also heard it myself. Also when playing along records. Not trying to bash them, that was just a dud and I accept it. Because _every _brand has them, one in a thousand or 999 in a thousand. It varies.
> -My Ormsby GTR is ridiculously good and comparable to any high-end guitars I've had. But the neck shape is something I've had to get used to more than usually. Customer service A+.
> -I've owned 3 Mayones guitars, 2 with flaws that shouldn't be in +2k guitars. Also a good bunch of the ones I've tried in a shop have had dumb stuff like wonky pots or a creaking floyd nut (meaning that it isn't installed dead flush with the end of the fretboard). Also have a friend who worked in a shop that sold them. He made it clear that he'll never own one. Still there are a lot of people who praise them, and my current Setius makes me understand that. Talking with the customer service has been ok. Not super great but not awkward either.
> -My Aries is the most ergonomic super strat I've ever touched. It also stays in tune through a war. Still, the part of the strings that go through the body vibrate and I've to mute it with something when recording. Also the saddles are just high enough that I've had to file the sharp corner of the low-b string. Still consider this minor stuff compared to the overall quality of the guitar.
> -My UV7BK is sometimes the best guitar ever, sometimes a bitch to setup (ok, I play and maintain it very rarely).
> 
> My point is: there is a 100% chance that a lot of people have totally different experiences of those same exact brands. Stop generalizing. Take note of which brands have more good/bad rep than others. And especially pay attention to how they handle the issues.
> 
> Sorry to keep this thread alive, but I've came back to it many times and not said a word
> 
> /rant.



Well said. You have to evaluate it based on price too. If I was to buy a 500 guitar I would be willing to accept flaws in it as long as they are something you can fix. If it's a 1000+ guitar then maybe I can live with some cosmetic issues. I currently own guitars ranging in price from something like 800 to well over 3000 euros and the only one where I literally cannot find a single flaw is my most expensive guitar, an over 10 years old Heatley Tradition I bought used. Nowadays those go for something like $6000 new so you'd expect nothing but impeccable workmanship. The others, including a bunch of Yamahas, an Ibanez Premium bass, a Carvin C66 and a Kiesel AM7 all have some trivial cosmetic issues like slight color overspray on the Ibanez that you can only notice if you stick your nose in the guitar top. After I've setup them they all play and sound great.

When you start comparing expensive guitars like Ibanez J-Customs, Suhrs or Tom Andersons you are unlikely to find that big differences between them. I haven't played Tom Anderson but have tried enough J-Customs and Suhrs to say that both brands make really nice guitars. However a regular Ibanez Prestige or a Kiesel equivalent will play and sound very much the same with a good setup. A lot of what you are paying for in the high end are ultimately trivial things like more rounded fret ends or nicer looking woods and finishes.

As for Kiesel not caring I think that is unfair to say. People complained about side dots and they decided to start using CNC to get those right. People wanted full tops on the Vaders and they made that happen. People wanted trems on Vaders and that is a thing now. I think that's pretty fast response to the customers but of course they need to acknowledge that they sometimes don't get things totally right and make sure their customers leave happy. I had some cosmetic issues on my AM7 and Kiesel offered to send me some swag as I liked the guitar otherwise. I instead asked for a small refund, essentially beer money and they gave me much more than I asked. So that's my experience with Kiesel service and I left happy and have since recommended their guitars to many as I like the designs and quality to me was well in line with the price. I really wish they treated all their customers in the same manner.


----------



## cwhitey2

Laxu, if everyone had your experience with them this 20 page thread would not exist. 


Sadly the only thing are constant at is being inconsistent. They NEED to treat every customer like they are their only customer. Period.


----------



## linthat22

GuitarBizarre said:


> Endorsements are 100% marketing, never assume otherwise.
> 
> Hell, there are entire guitar models built for endorsers, that they hate and were only made due to marketing pressure.
> 
> Remember the ESP Axxion? Dave played that thing once, mentioned it in like 2 interviews and then it disappeared forever - because he hated it.




Did Dave ever mention why he didn't like it? I mean, he pretty much said that it was 100% his design, so I'm curious. I would love to snag one up if the price was right.


----------



## narad

linthat22 said:


> Did Dave ever mention why he didn't like it? I mean, he pretty much said that it was 100% his design, so I'm curious. I would love to snag one up if the price was right.



Yea, those were quite cool -- the way he demonstrates the way it sits on his leg is the same as a strandberg boden, years before that was a thing.


----------



## Jeff

Someone needs to start a semi-custom direct guitar company that charges maybe 30-40% more than Kiesel, has a sane amount of options, doesn't veer from that list with special one-offs, and hires excellent CS/sales. I'd pay $1800 for a guitar that was right the first time, without serious design flaws.


----------



## narad

Suhr Pro series.


----------



## cwhitey2

narad said:


> Suhr Pro series.



Jeff, this statement is correct.


----------



## Jeff

Suhr pro series are amazing, and well worth the money. But they're definitely more than 40% more than most modestly optioned Kiesels, and they don't do direct sales either.


----------



## littleredguitars2

hell, i'd be willing to bet even the cheaper suhrs like the modern satins would be more reliable than a kiesel. those satins looks amazin.


----------



## USMarine75

Schecter USA Custom shop... most of their semi-customs run $2500-4000. Maybe a little more than you want to pay, but damn are they worth every penny.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeff said:


> Someone needs to start a semi-custom direct guitar company that charges maybe 30-40% more than Kiesel, has a sane amount of options, doesn't veer from that list with special one-offs, and hires excellent CS/sales. I'd pay $1800 for a guitar that was right the first time, without serious design flaws.





narad said:


> Suhr Pro series.





Jeff said:


> Suhr pro series are amazing, and well worth the money. But they're definitely more than 40% more than most modestly optioned Kiesels, and they don't do direct sales either.



They reeeeeeally need more models, and something that isn't bolt-on. I know they have at least made set-necks before, but it doesn't seem that they do at the moment.


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> They reeeeeeally need more models, and something that isn't bolt-on. I know they have at least made set-necks before, but it doesn't seem that they do at the moment.



They still do set necks customs just not in the Pro series. They've actually really cut down on the options in the Pro series over the last few years.


----------



## -JeKo-

Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty...


----------



## GuitarBizarre

-JeKo- said:


> Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty.


----------



## yellowv

littleredguitars2 said:


> hell, i'd be willing to bet even the cheaper suhrs like the modern satins would be more reliable than a kiesel. those satins looks amazin.



The modern satin has the same quality as every other Suhr. They .... all over Kiesel. I traded my highly spec'ed Vader for a Modern Satin and there is no comparison.


----------



## yellowv

-JeKo- said:


> Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty.



Option 50 no refund.


----------



## Electric Wizard

yellowv said:


> The modern satin has the same quality as every other Suhr. They .... all over Kiesel. I traded my highly spec'ed Vader for a Modern Satin and there is no comparison.



Ah but you see, Jeff Kiesel said that PLEK'd guitars are bad. Every Suhr is PLEK'd so that's just not possible.


----------



## Science_Penguin

-JeKo- said:


> Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty.








Guess that's one less company to consider. Might as well order that Gibson online...


----------



## Overtone

laxu said:


> As for Kiesel not caring I think that is unfair to say. People complained about side dots and they decided to start using CNC to get those right. People wanted full tops on the Vaders and they made that happen. People wanted trems on Vaders and that is a thing now. I think that's pretty fast response to the customers but of course they need to acknowledge that they sometimes don't get things totally right and make sure their customers leave happy. I had some cosmetic issues on my AM7 and Kiesel offered to send me some swag as I liked the guitar otherwise. I instead asked for a small refund, essentially beer money and they gave me much more than I asked. So that's my experience with Kiesel service and I left happy and have since recommended their guitars to many as I like the designs and quality to me was well in line with the price. I really wish they treated all their customers in the same manner.



I sort of agree.. while there is no way to rationalize the customer service blunders, it seems kind of unnecessary to mock and criticize Jeff ITT when it seems like he has a genuine desire to cater to what people are looking for in guitars and to make them happy. I realize that to a certain extent his comments invite criticism, but don't knock the guy's style choices so hard when he's made it possible for people to buy the kinds of things that several years ago were only for the influential or for the very well funded and patient.


----------



## yellowv

Electric Wizard said:


> Ah but you see, Jeff Kiesel said that PLEK'd guitars are bad. Every Suhr is PLEK'd so that's just not possible.



Oh no Jeff said it's bad I better throw it away. Lol. From a guy that can't get side dots straight I would think he would like a machine to help him get frets leveled.


----------



## canuck brian

-JeKo- said:


> Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty...



Looks like it was already deleted.


----------



## Kwert

canuck brian said:


> Looks like it was already deleted.



Nah, it's still there,



> As a huge Kiesel fan, sadly i have to rate maximum 2 stars for my recent order. Unfortunately and unluckily every single possible things went wrong with my order. I am left handed guitar player, and obviously i ordered left handed ultrav7 but i received right handed version of it. I mean it is ok, no one is perfect everyone can do mistake so i understood the situation. I live in the UK so Kiesel didn't want to take this guitar back to USA, which means i am holding this guitar for them in my house until they find customer in the UK. They've told me that my new guitar will arrive within 3 to 4 weeks, i chased them after 4 weeks as i haven't receive my guitar nor got an update, and unfortunately there was a crack on guitar wood so they changed ETA to after 4 weeks once more and if there are no any delays, then i will receive my order after literally 5-6 months. Those things could be happen that is fine yes, but i am single person and if i am not at home, no one would be able to pick up my order, i delayed my business meetings twice just because of this beautiful Ultrav7... Come on Kiesel surprise me, force me to rate this to 5 stars, i promise i won't rate 5 stars after 5-6 months! FYI all, If i didn't know Kiesel, i would definitely rate 1 star as most probably every single Kiesel member of staff can agree with this regarding my order,


----------



## diagrammatiks

There was a cracked ebony fretboard in the owners group that was deleted.


----------



## littleredguitars2

*wow*. that is unbelievable.


----------



## narad

Damn, last night after seeing Charlie Griffiths with his green vader all night with Haken I was kind of feeling positive Kiesel vibes. And then that ^^ story...ugh. No thanks, again.


----------



## cwhitey2

This thread keeps getting better


----------



## Zado

USMarine75 said:


> Schecter USA Custom shop... most of their semi-customs run $2500-4000. Maybe a little more than you want to pay, but damn are they worth every penny.



Don't even try, noone listens


----------



## Fred the Shred

> As a huge Kiesel fan, sadly i have to rate maximum 2 stars for my recent order. Unfortunately and unluckily every single possible things went wrong with my order. I am left handed guitar player, and obviously i ordered left handed ultrav7 but i received right handed version of it. I mean it is ok, no one is perfect everyone can do mistake so i understood the situation. *I live in the UK so Kiesel didn't want to take this guitar back to USA, which means i am holding this guitar for them in my house until they find customer in the UK*. They've told me that my new guitar will arrive within 3 to 4 weeks, i chased them after 4 weeks as i haven't receive my guitar nor got an update, and unfortunately there was a crack on guitar wood so they changed ETA to after 4 weeks once more and if there are no any delays, then i will receive my order after literally 5-6 months. Those things could be happen that is fine yes, but i am single person and if i am not at home, no one would be able to pick up my order, i delayed my business meetings twice just because of this beautiful Ultrav7... Come on Kiesel surprise me, force me to rate this to 5 stars, i promise i won't rate 5 stars after 5-6 months! FYI all, If i didn't know Kiesel, i would definitely rate 1 star as most probably every single Kiesel member of staff can agree with this regarding my order,



Excuse me? I mean, some things like "having to be home" are a bit on the nitpicking side of things - it's up to the customer to provide a delivery address he can use, and whatever limitations are imposed by his daily schedules aren't on Kiesel or anyone else for that matter -, but the customer having to serve as a seller of sorts is quite odd. 

When one considers that, by not returning the instrument, the customer is now boned with customs charges, which he will pay again unless the UK has far less rigid and virtually impossible to bypass taxation rules than Portugal (in my case, for example, unless I present evidence of damage or having returned the original goods, I'm paying customs for the replacement as well), not to mention how this entails that whatever customer buys the original axe pays no customs whatsoever, which will always result in something that is either illegal, doubly penalising to the original buyer, or both. 

As for what overtone said, it's one thing to raise an eyebrow and sigh at the stuff Jeff says, and I often do as well, but there are some rather unfair remarks throughout the thread that almost go as far as saying there is nothing positive about Carvin / Kiesel, and that is just untrue.


----------



## xvultures

-JeKo- said:


> Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty...





Kwert said:


> Nah, it's still there,



Here's a screen shot in case it gets deleted.. Can pages delete reviews of themselves?
https://www.facebook.com/rammslica/posts/10155198711584443:0


----------



## bostjan

Sorry, but I got stuck at



> i ordered left handed ultrav7 but i received right handed version of it.



Nothing beyond that point really matters, unless it is explaining how Kiesel is going to fix it at their own expense, unless, of course, if what the customer said is untrue.


----------



## narad

Fred the Shred said:


> Excuse me? I mean, some things like "having to be home" are a bit on the nitpicking side of things - it's up to the customer to provide a delivery address he can use, and whatever limitations are imposed by his daily schedules aren't on Kiesel or anyone else for that matter -, but the customer having to serve as a seller of sorts is quite odd.



I think the point is that these are an additional set of pains/costs forced upon the customer because of Kiesel's failure to check something as basic as, "Was this supposed to be right-handed?" before sending it out. If you've ever had to waste one of your vacation days for someone else's snafu, you'll understand. Not fun stuff, and unfortunately a pain that is not something you get reimbursed for.


----------



## oracles

xvultures said:


> Can pages delete reviews of themselves?



No, FB won't let the page remove any reviews posted, only the original poster can modify/delete it, so there's no way they can deny responsibility on this one, or just delete it and hope it goes away. They're stuck with it.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Absolutely, yet that is the part I am willing to excuse - if the extra hassle derives from an effort to deliver the instrument to me in timely fashion, for example, I can't say I am dissatisfied with such an effort.

The extra hassle that is absolutely uncalled for is turning the customer, who is already in a crap position from getting a guitar that's pretty much useless, into a reseller of sorts, which is not correct at all in my book.


----------



## canuck brian

bostjan said:


> Sorry, but I got stuck at
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing beyond that point really matters, unless it is explaining how Kiesel is going to fix it at their own expense, unless, of course, if what the customer said is untrue.



The last person to do the exact same thing as Kiesel is doing right now is Rotor. Ponder that one for a minute. 

That guitar should be picked up by a courier, shipped back to the states and the right guitar built and shipped with no cost to that guy.


----------



## bostjan

canuck brian said:


> The last person to do the exact same thing as Kiesel is doing right now is Rotor. Ponder that one for a minute.
> 
> That guitar should be picked up by a courier, shipped back to the states and the right guitar built and shipped with no cost to that guy.



I remember that. What an absolute heartbreaker that entire mess ended up being. Roter handled it the same way, too, IIRC. "Just sell that guitar and then, once you have the money, we'll build you a new one..." .... that!

How on Earth does a manufacturer make you the wrong guitar, then just tell you it's your problem?! No other business can get away with that, can they?!

Frankly, there are QC issues, but then there is that. It's an entirely lower level of nonsense. The longer that sinks in, the more angry I get. ...I was really really hoping Kiesel would straighten out their issues, but, if this story is true, I really don't think it's a forgivable offense. Making the wrong guitar is pretty bad, but telling the customer to sell the guitar and then buy a new one from them is... well, if there was a word for it, it'd be a word that the forum won't let me say.


----------



## Exit Existence

diagrammatiks said:


> There was a cracked ebony fretboard in the owners group that was deleted.



I saw that pohto.... everyone on that post was saying that it was "not conditioned or oiled enough"....It was from the Aries run last November.

...I'm not sure ebony fretboards should crack 4 months after they were made.... Some guitars that aren't from factory-direct brands sit in a boxes for years before they are sold.... either way can't judge too much on that one, They might have taken care of that guy for all we know.


I'm a Carvin/Kiesel fanboy, I think the overall quality and materials you get for the price is unmatched. And on top of that value, you get almost full customization of your instrument.

Their business is tough, they are a large scale semi-custom company. I think I heard recently they are shipping 10 - 20 guitars a day. I don't think the quality suffered with the switch over to Kiesel, It's the same ppl working on the guitars. Maybe it was the switch in factory locations and process. I think they just need to work on their customer service and new business model. 

A major part of being a great guitar company who makes top tier instruments is having zero tolerance for defective stuff and also listening and responding to their customers.


----------



## oracles

Exit Existence said:


> I think the overall quality and materials you get for the price is unmatched. And on top of that value, you get almost full customization of your instrument.



What good is that if you end up being one of the seemingly more and more common customers who receives a flawed guitar, or in this case, entirely the wrong one? The overall quality means f*ck all if the instrument you receive has fundamental flaws in it's construction and/or design, and when they build and ship you an instrument that's functionally useless to you once you've received it, and then they won't even take it back? I'm sorry, that's NOT good quality, nor good value. That's piss poor on every level. 

I don't care how many guitars they ship a day, what their order volume is, how many Jeff himself personally touches, building and shipping someone the wrong instrument is entirely unacceptable as it is, and refusing to have it shipped back is even beyond unacceptable. 

The owner of that Aries with the cracked fretboard was near crucified in the Kiesel FB group, because he "didn't do what Manny had said" in that entirely inappropriate thread about going public before giving the business a chance to respond. As a consumer, where is your confidence meant to stem from that the business will help you when they've clearly exhibited on multiple occasions now that the customer service team absolutely doesn't care? 

Without some serious effort being put into correcting the frequency and severity of build issues, as well as an entire overhaul of their customer service teams and responses, Kiesel is headed the way of the fly by night luthiers, and truth be told if they do, I won't miss them after all the BS we keep seeing from them.


----------



## laxu

bostjan said:


> I remember that. What an absolute heartbreaker that entire mess ended up being. Roter handled it the same way, too, IIRC. "Just sell that guitar and then, once you have the money, we'll build you a new one..." .... that!
> 
> How on Earth does a manufacturer make you the wrong guitar, then just tell you it's your problem?! No other business can get away with that, can they?!
> 
> Frankly, there are QC issues, but then there is that. It's an entirely lower level of nonsense. The longer that sinks in, the more angry I get. ...I was really really hoping Kiesel would straighten out their issues, but, if this story is true, I really don't think it's a forgivable offense. Making the wrong guitar is pretty bad, but telling the customer to sell the guitar and then buy a new one from them is... well, if there was a word for it, it'd be a word that the forum won't let me say.



Based on the quoted post it seems like Kiesel wants to have the buyer keep the guitar in the UK and when Kiesel finds a buyer for it they can ship it (at Kiesel's expense) to the new owner, thus negating a long trip back to the US. 

That said, it is still something that will take space in the current owner's home and Kiesel should definitely throw in either a partial refund or upgrade the specs or something considering it's totally their ....up and lots of hassle for the current owner.


----------



## Seventhwave

Oh it's just a minor QC issue......



Unreal


----------



## bostjan

Wishnevsky also offers pretty much full customization for about 1/3 of the price of a Kiesel. 

I don't understand the statement that the quality is unmatched. We've seen lately tons of issues where materials have cracked (tops, fretboards, etc.), bridges are max'ed out on their adjustment and still don't play properly (primarily on the Aries), and instruments are shipped out with no regard for customer specification (wrong colour, wrong handedness, etc.). What kind of quality is that?

If I went to a restaurant, and mushroom ravioli in a pesto sauce, and you brought me a plate of boiled chicken gizzards, and then said you used only the finest meats, am I supposed to be a happy customer?! Add into the situation, that the manager said to keep the boiled chicken gizzards at my table until they find someone else who wants them...does that make sense?

Addressing the whole "keep the guitar until we find a buyer" aspect: no. It seems beyond sketchy to me. Put yourself in the shoes of the totally hypothetical buyer who ends up with this guitar. Do you really want a guitar that was totally made wrong and then stored for who-knows-how-long at the disgruntled would-be-customer's house? IDK, that doesn't add up to me. What if you claim you received the guitar damaged? I'll bet Kiesel would go after the guy who kept the guitar at his house all of that time. Also, what if the guitar really is damaged? God forbid, but say that there is a fire or a flood, or that the guy's neighbourhood gets bed bugs...then what?!


----------



## kingpinMS3

bostjan said:


> I remember that. What an absolute heartbreaker that entire mess ended up being. Roter handled it the same way, too, IIRC. "Just sell that guitar and then, once you have the money, we'll build you a new one..." .... that!
> 
> How on Earth does a manufacturer make you the wrong guitar, then just tell you it's your problem?! No other business can get away with that, can they?!
> 
> Frankly, there are QC issues, but then there is that. It's an entirely lower level of nonsense. The longer that sinks in, the more angry I get. ...I was really really hoping Kiesel would straighten out their issues, but, if this story is true, I really don't think it's a forgivable offense. Making the wrong guitar is pretty bad, but telling the customer to sell the guitar and then buy a new one from them is... well, if there was a word for it, it'd be a word that the forum won't let me say.



IIRC, can't you file a chargeback through your credit card company?

i'd be on the phone with chase so fast their heads would spin.


----------



## Exit Existence

I should clarify, I think they are high quality instruments and for the price their build quality and materials used for the price they charge is unmatched compared to big name brands, not their quality control and customer service.


----------



## budda

Exit Existence said:


> I should clarify, I think they are high quality instruments and for the price their build quality and materials used for the price they charge is unmatched compared to big name brands, not their quality control and customer service.



- not high quality instruments - documented cases of materials breaking, poor design causing hardware to be non-adjustable
- build quality is not good (that side dot fiasco)
- materials used are not high quality (cracking boards, finishes)
- For a brand new Gibson LP studio or PRS S2, these things seem to come out way below muster.

Quality Control is what guarantees a good product. If your QC is crap, your product will be crap more often than should be permissible. You negate your high praise. 

There's a reason people suggest Gibson, Fender and PRS when people ask "what guitar should I buy?" - it's fairly easy to find a good, reliable one.


----------



## Viginez

bostjan said:


> keep the guitar until we find a buyer


mabe they'll try to find a shop that sells it then...i can't imagine they ask the customer to store the guitar the entire time? but who knows...


----------



## bostjan

budda said:


> - not high quality instruments - documented cases of materials breaking, poor design causing hardware to be non-adjustable
> - build quality is not good (that side dot fiasco)
> - materials used are not high quality (cracking boards, finishes)
> - For a brand new Gibson LP studio or PRS S2, these things seem to come out way below muster.
> 
> Quality Control is what guarantees a good product. If your QC is crap, your product will be crap more often than should be permissible. You negate your high praise.
> 
> There's a reason people suggest Gibson, Fender and PRS when people ask "what guitar should I buy?" - it's fairly easy to find a good, reliable one.



Exactly.

The build quality of a product, in general, is the average quality of that product line, not the maximum quality of it. Otherwise, brands like Agile, Squier, Epiphone, etc., would totally dominate the bang-for-the-buck category. I agree some Kiesels are quite nice, but if you average the very nice ones with the unplayable ones, what have you got, in terms of average quality? It's certainly not worth $1500+ for the people who got lemons. Is it worth the 60/40 chance of getting a good one?


----------



## davedeath

Kiesel at first was blaming the guy for ordering a right handed instrument. He had screen shots to prove otherwise. They really need a social medial expert. Next time I buy a guitar I'm gonna make sure to tell them why I didn't get a kiesel.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

everyone keeps bringing up the side dots (which were unacceptable) but I'm pretty sure they haven't had a problem with those for some time due to using cnc.


----------



## bostjan

KnightBrolaire said:


> everyone keeps bringing up the side dots (which were unacceptable) but I'm pretty sure they haven't had a problem with those for some time due to using cnc.



I didn't bring it up, because I'm not even aware of that.

I was talking about the tops cracking, fretboards cracking, colours being wrong, handedness being wrong, neck pockets being milled wrong, bridges being max'ed out (and still the strings are too low): all more recent issues.

For the record, I actually don't think it's appropriate to throw Kiesel under the bus for some of these mistakes (although shipping a RH guitar to a LH customer is worthy of high levels of ridicule), but the way they deal with these problems by accusing the customer of some nonsense, telling them that they are wrong, etc., is absolutely 100% inexcusable.


----------



## Science_Penguin

bostjan said:


> For the record, I actually don't think it's appropriate to throw Kiesel under the bus for some of these mistakes (although shipping a RH guitar to a LH customer is worthy of high levels of ridicule), but the way they deal with these problems by accusing the customer of some nonsense, telling them that they are wrong, etc., is absolutely 100% inexcusable.



But, when the mistakes seem to happen with more frequency than would be considered normal, is that worthy of throwing them under the bus? 

Would you say Kiesel is more prone to mistakes than they should be, or are we just getting an influx of horror stories and their error frequency is actually no different than any other company?

...I suppose it would help if I knew what you meant by "throwing them under the bus." Do you just mean ridicule or does that include criticism?


----------



## GuitarBizarre

Penguin - 

I think the simple fact of this is that you can buy a lot of guitars for similar money to Kiesel, and there are no threads, week in, week out, slamming those other brands for their poor materials, poor hardware, poor design, and absolutely abysmal customer service stories.

Even if the Keisels *are* better than those other brands when they get it right, the fact of it is that given the choice between, say, $1500 on an instrument with a 30% chance of a major flaw or longevity issue, or $2000 on a similar instrument with a 1% chance of that? 

I will pay the extra $500 every single time, and so will most people when the investment is such a large amount of money, I think.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bostjan said:


> I didn't bring it up, because I'm not even aware of that.
> 
> I was talking about the tops cracking, fretboards cracking, colours being wrong, handedness being wrong, neck pockets being milled wrong, bridges being max'ed out (and still the strings are too low): all more recent issues.
> 
> For the record, I actually don't think it's appropriate to throw Kiesel under the bus for some of these mistakes (although shipping a RH guitar to a LH customer is worthy of high levels of ridicule), but the way they deal with these problems by accusing the customer of some nonsense, telling them that they are wrong, etc., is absolutely 100% inexcusable.



you didn't bring it up, budda did. Even though they've rectified the side dot issue the more recent issues are pretty terrible, and they're only made worse by the multiple posts about kiesel's terrible customer service. 

The way they're acting is unacceptable in pretty much any professional field. Nobody wants to work with people that can't admit they're wrong or won't willingly rectify simple ....ups. My mom works for an appliance manufacturing company (Whirlpool) and a company recently messed up an order for refrigerator parts. She calls them, asks what they'll do to make this right, and they send the extra parts immediately, along with discounting the next 2 orders. On the same end, the paint contractor changed their formula/composition for a certain paint without telling her, and it ended up causing a snafu which they refused to fix or compensate her company for. She ended up dropping their contract and blacklisting them from further business with Whirlpool. That's pretty significant since they were supplying Whirlpool, which is one of the largest appliance manufacturing companies around, and they lost it over bad customer support.
I used to work in the hotel industry and it was a similar situation, if you mess up, then rectify the situation, apologize profusely, give people some swag and most people will be happy.


----------



## Seventhwave

KnightBrolaire said:


> The way they're acting is unacceptable in pretty much any professional field.





What I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that it's not like Carvin/Kiesel is new to the internet. People are going to post stuff online, some of which is going to make you not look so hot. You'd think they'd be aware that you simply can't control that. Having employees (like Manny) posting .... that basically says the customer has a responsibility to the company first is ridiculous, and even if he were in the right, it ultimately makes the company look bad. 

Why not just focus on the things you can control? Like decreasing the amount of ....-ups that head out the door and hiring a properly trained staff that knows how to be professional and treat customers with respect. Amazingly enough, they'd probably notice that "problem" of people going online and posting unfavorable things about the company will decrease as well.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Seventhwave said:


> What I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that it's not like Carvin/Kiesel is new to the internet. People are going to post stuff online, some of which is going to make you not look so hot. You'd think they'd be aware that you simply can't control that. Having employees (like Manny) posting .... that basically says the customer has a responsibility to the company first is ridiculous, and even if he were in the right, it ultimately makes the company look bad.
> 
> Why not just focus on the things you can control? Like decreasing the amount of ....-ups that head out the door and hiring a properly trained staff that knows how to be professional and treat customers with respect. Amazingly enough, they'd probably notice that "problem" of people going online and posting unfavorable things about the company will decrease as well.



Because that would make sense, and logic is not this company's strong suit ( just like customer service isn't). The fact that they think they can run a company with attitudes like this makes their business model untenable, good customer support goes a very long way and bad customer support will haunt them forever. I used to be supportive of Kiesel because both of my vaders turned out great with no issues (not even cosmetic), but they've pretty much destroyed any goodwill I have by posting crap blaming the customers and just generally acting unprofessional.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Really can't believe the shipped a right handed guitar instead of left and acting like it's no big deal.. this absolutely is ridiculous!!


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

-JeKo- said:


> Somebody just posted on Kiesel's Facebook page that they built him a right-handed guitar instead of a lefty...





Dawn of the Shred said:


> Really can't believe the shipped a right handed guitar instead of left and acting like it's no big deal.. this absolutely is ridiculous!!



That could be an honest mistake and it happens (not that often though ). To me the appalling, hair-raising issue is asking the customer to basically store the wrong guitar until Kiesel sells it locally, seriously!!!!!


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> That could be an honest mistake and it happens (not that often though ). To me the appalling, hair-raising issue is asking the customer to basically store the wrong guitar until Kiesel sells it locally, seriously!!!!!



Yeah the storing the guitar until they sell it is ridiculous!!


----------



## coupe89

I can't believe they started calling that guys a liar.


----------



## MetalHead40

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> That could be an honest mistake and it happens (not that often though ). To me the appalling, hair-raising issue is asking the customer to basically store the wrong guitar until Kiesel sells it locally, seriously!!!!!



Shipping a right handed guitar to a guy who ordered a left hand model a modest mistake? That should happen like ah let me think....NEVER! PERIOD!


----------



## BigViolin

Could just be the camera angle.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

BigViolin said:


> Could just be the camera angle.



Need the like button back!!  is


----------



## Señor Voorhees

I get that somebody checked the wrong box somewhere and they built the entirely wrong thing. That's an embarrassing mistake, but it could happen to anyone. I think it's incredibly ....ed up that they didn't just accept the return and build it right.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

coupe89 said:


> I can't believe they started calling that guys a liar.



They called him a liar? That's ridiculous!!


----------



## arasys

Sending a right handed guitar to a lefty is almost worse than sending a 23 fret guitar (I still feel bad for the person who ordered that Kelly), but then asking him to hold on to it while they search for a local buyer in UK ? No one double checked the sheet? But hey they are "generous" enough to pay for Fedex fees (!)

None of it makes any rational sense and there's no way they can spin it this time. Something is not adding up or not normal.

This is redefining standards of horrible customer service.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

I... Read their response and it doesn't sound bad or unbelievable. 



> Hey Cagri, Im surprised to see this on here since you and I have been communicating so great throughout this whole process. However, we must put out the facts correctly. When your guitar was initially ordered and you were sent a copy of the order for review, there was no request to make it a left handed instrument. We didn't make a righty by accident. We made the exact guitar requested on the order. But we understood... everyone makes mistakes. We understand this can happen. People have even made this mistake online on the builder in the past when its literally the first option on the builder to pick Left or Right.
> Since then.. you and I (as well as Keith) have remained in communication regarding the rebuild. Every time you've messaged me on here Ive been available to talk with you and answer your questions. So Im a little confused as to you having to have chased us for 4 weeks. I understand your frustrated. Having to wait longer than expected absolutely stinks. However, in all honestly the fact that we found an issue before shipping it out is really a positive thing. How certain woods react is beyond our control. The only thing we can do is what we do, keep working on it till its right. The alternative to this scenario would've been to ship this out and have you find an issue with your guitar and then contact us back to tell us about the issue and then have you ship it back to us etc,... I guarantee, you probably would've been way more upset that way.. and righteously so. Because our quality control should've caught that issue before it shipped. In this case, it did. I know, both of these scenarios are a bummer.. but this scenario (us finding any issue before it ships out) is a part of our job and what we are supposed to do. I really hope you understand this. The unfortunate part was that it was on your rebuild guitar.
> Again, Im so sorry this is happening to your specific guitar order. But we've been here every step of the way. Trust me I completely understand that you're frustrated... We've all been there at one time or another. I promise you when you get your guitar, you will be super stoked on it. Again, Im sorry about all the inconvenience Cargi. Our purpose was never to try to frustrate or give you a bad experience. I know on your inbox message to me you said you weren't blaming Kiesel or anyone here because you were bummed with the luck you've been having lately. Our sole purpose is to try to make every sale and guitar the best experience possible. The miscommunication was an unfortunate start to our relationship.. and I definitely dont want you to feel like youre a bad lucked Stepchild in this family. We're here to help in anyway possible. We're a family. And Im sorry that we've failed at providing this experience. But please know, we're in it for the long haul with you... or at least for long as you'll have us.



That sounds like pretty standard fair for a company responding to issues, and didn't come off as accusatory or rude to me. This is why I prefer to see both sides before forming an outright opinion. I do remember when I placed an order last that I was made to confirm the specs were right. Perhaps dude-bro really did just glance over it and approve a right handed model.

edit: Worth noting that this does nothing for the blatant oversight of the Aries design and it's sketchy bridge. I just think this particular path has come to an end.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Señor Voorhees;4723473 said:


> I... Read their response and it doesn't sound bad or unbelievable.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like pretty standard fair for a company responding to issues, and didn't come off as accusatory or rude to me. This is why I prefer to see both sides before forming an outright opinion. I do remember when I placed an order last that I was made to confirm the specs were right. Perhaps dude-bro really did just glance over it and approve a right handed model.
> 
> edit: Worth noting that this does nothing for the blatant oversight of the Aries design and it's sketchy bridge. I just think this particular path has come to an end.



agreed


----------



## FrznTek

Señor Voorhees;4723473 said:


> I... Read their response and it doesn't sound bad or unbelievable.
> ....


and his response...


> Ça&#287;r&#305; Karabulut: Hey Manny, please don't misunderstand me... I am sharing my experience, so other customers can have some knowledge, feedback is the key for any company and believe me or not but i am dealing with thousands of customers each day too, so i can understand every single comment you have told me already.Also, i don't think i did say anything bad, i did say whatever i had with my order which is totally bad luck in my opinion,
> 
> but there is one thing i horrendously wanted to confirm :
> 
> "However, we must put out the facts correctly. When your guitar was initially ordered and you were sent a copy of the order for review, there was no request to make it a left handed instrument."
> 
> My guitar DEFINITELY ordered left handed, we can clearly see it on screen shot that i have sent you. And Keith actually said, that he is also left handed and he apologies for this issue. I totally understand and respected, no problem whatsoever.
> 
> I did chase you for 4 weeks, it is because as i mentioned before i will be out of country and i actually going to fly tomorrow morning. I needed to know ETA for plan or re-plan my schedule.If i would receive guitar next week, then i kindly ask Keith to send it to my work address...





> Kiesel Guitars Carvin Guitars: Ahh I see.. I was referring to the final order that Keith sends customers so they can double check the order or make changes Either way bro.. it was a mistake and an oversight none-the-less...



so yeah.... Kiesel F'ed up, then tried to blame him.

Yet he's still being cool about it...


> Ça&#287;r&#305; Karabulut: They are good guys, call those guys and order yours!
> 
> I am just unlucky


----------



## MaxOfMetal

This Manny fella is worse than a dozen Jeffs, bros and otherwise.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MaxOfMetal said:


> This Manny fella is worse than a dozen Jeffs, bros and otherwise.



seems like he and mike jones are the main problems at kiesel right now excluding the spotty qc.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

KnightBrolaire said:


> seems like he and mike jones are the main problems at kiesel right now excluding the spotty qc.



Nah, the guy who employs them is worse. Close though.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Jeff definitely has his share of blunders, and I can attest to that. They need to drop all this sense of defensiveness and being right they seem to have. The best course of action when you .... up is to drop everything, apologize and make it right. I know they refer to it as a family, but at the end of the day it's a business - customer relationship, not father and child.

I can also guarantee you that any sense of being apologetic is because this was on a public post that they can't remove and the fact that it's a review on their company page. Someone linked me a post on Jeff's FB that actually had a customer address his Vader trem route being cut wrong. And that when he pulled up the trem would hit the body, and it very clearly is doing so.

Jeff's response is that the action is set too low on the trem posts instead of setting it via the saddles on the bridge. And while that may be a valid way of setting action, why not take the interaction to PM's and handle it well there? Nevermind the fact that accommodating for trem pull up range by having your trem be required to be at a certain height is insane.

I sold my K series recently to a member on here, and he can attest to how nice that guitar is as can I with my positive experiences. But as other people have said, the possibility of being on the short end of the stick is far too high for me too keep putting trust/money into their builds. And when I had a build go south, the end result left a bitter taste in my mouth even though I did eventually get my way and got my money back for the flawed guitar.


----------



## HeavyMetal4Ever

This whole thread is made out of horrendous customer service fails.

If Kiesel's intent is to drive away potential customers and put themselves out of business then they are surely on the right track.


----------



## TheTrooper

I suggest to rename the thread in "Sh*t Happenes.....Often" 

Jokes aside, mistakes are always a possibility, but asking for a customer to keep the wrong guitar hoping to sell it locally it's nonsense; in that case, the customer has it's own fault, he could've said "No, You get the guitar back, don't care If you want it or not. Your mistake, You pay the return and Customs' fees, not my problem."


----------



## cwhitey2

davedeath said:


> Kiesel at first was blaming the guy for ordering a right handed instrument. He had screen shots to prove otherwise. They really need a social medial expert. Next time I buy a guitar I'm gonna make sure to tell them why I didn't get a kiesel.



They need a competent PR expert and someone who has great public speaking skills and is willing to admit when they made mistake (or at least when the company and/or production has). 


Half of this .... wouldn't matter if at all if they said "oh .... we screwed up, let us take care of our mistake at our cost..."


----------



## bostjan

cwhitey2 said:


> They need a competent PR expert and someone who has great public speaking skills and is willing to admit when they made mistake (or at least when the company and/or production has).
> 
> 
> Half of this .... wouldn't matter if at all if they said "oh .... we screwed up, let us take care of our mistake at our cost..."



I work closely with manufacturing. The expectation in our business would be that we would lose tons of customers if we publicly blamed a customer for a part being made wrong, regardless of what the spec sheet said. I know that the customer is going public in 10/10 of the cases we see publicly, but it seems a common thread that this happens when the problem isn't addressed privately. 

I'm not qualified to say what the best way to run a business is, but I can tell you that the way Kiesel is operating, I am surprised they are still going.


----------



## nistley

Jonathan20022 said:


> I know they refer to it as a family, but at the end of the day it's a business - customer relationship, not father and child.



Actually, referring to a business as a family is the most disgusting manipulative bull.... I have read as a form of apology. It implies there should some deep, instinctual, emotional bond, and forgiveness. I can understand when it's on a Comcast billboard, but from an actual person you don't know, it doesn't get lower as a sales tactic.


----------



## cwhitey2

bostjan said:


> I work closely with manufacturing. The expectation in our business would be that we would lose tons of customers if we publicly blamed a customer for a part being made wrong, regardless of what the spec sheet said. I know that the customer is going public in 10/10 of the cases we see publicly, but it seems a common thread that this happens when the problem isn't addressed privately.
> 
> I'm not qualified to say what the best way to run a business is, but I can tell you that the way Kiesel is operating, I am surprised they are still going.




We have a motto at our shop. "The customer may not always be right, but the customer is still the customer."


I can actually speak first had as to what poor customer service equals...over the last 2 years we have lost around 30% (down 14.19% this year, I have the up to date paper work in front of me) of our volume base on the previous 2 years numbers. And it literally comes down to the people in that area of the shop don't give a .... about anything. 

Meanwhile the area I'm in charge of has had a 56% growth over the last 2 years (this year growth is 35.16%) because the work I/we have been producing is top notch and my/our customer service is awesome and I have the customer testimonials to prove it. I receive way more compliments then complaints and I TAKE CARE OF THE CUSTOMER. It doesn't matter whether the customer had no idea what they were ordering or not, we ALWAYS make it right and therefore our return customer rate is around 95%.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I still can't believe manny's first words were sorry bro but you didn't order a lefty.


----------



## davedeath

cwhitey2 said:


> They need a competent PR expert and someone who has great public speaking skills and is willing to admit when they made mistake (or at least when the company and/or production has).
> 
> 
> Half of this .... wouldn't matter if at all if they said "oh .... we screwed up, let us take care of our mistake at our cost..."


You know whats funny? I use to watch every fb video without missing a single second. Jeff prides him self in not having a pr department.


----------



## xzacx

diagrammatiks said:


> I still can't believe manny's first words were sorry bro but you didn't order a lefty.



Even worse is the response once he provided the screenshot -

"Either way bro"


----------



## cwhitey2

davedeath said:


> You know whats funny? I use to watch every fb video without missing a single second. Jeff prides him self in not having a pr department.


----------



## mpexus

Mistakes happen but someone gotta pay for them. 

In this case Kiesel the Company totally ....ed up, theres nothing you can say that will make it better. The only intelligent solution I would do was:

- We are sorry we are building the correct Guitar as we speak and it will take some time to do it properly. We want to COMPENSATE you for all the trouble and the Delay so we can arrange a way to add some features you might want at NO EXTRA Charge. In the meantime either you deliver the wrong Guitar to us at our expense or you keep it and do whatever you want with it.

That item is a LOSS, its lost commercially and they will pay a lot on shipping and fees to get the guitar back not to mention the loss of reputation something like this brings. 

If they cant allow themselves to loose 1.5-2K on an Item then something is wrong as a company and they are working on a thin line... which analyzing all that is happening lately is a very strong possibility.


----------



## noise in my mind

xzacx said:


> Even worse is the response once he provided the screenshot -
> 
> "Either way bro"



Yeah, what an asshole response. Trying to act all cool using the word "bro."


----------



## bostjan

Politeness is like a chain, it's only as good as its weakest link. 

If you politely insinuate that the customer is lying, he provides irrefutable evidence of the contrary, and you respond with "either way bro," then you are not being polite. I guess I feel kind of weird in feeling like I have to explain that.


----------



## spudmunkey

They are in San Diego area. i don't hold that against 'em...they'd call the Pope "Holy Bro".


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

noise in my mind said:


> Yeah, what an asshole response. Trying to act all cool using the word "bro."





bostjan said:


> Politeness is like a chain, it's only as good as its weakest link.
> 
> If you politely insinuate that the customer is lying, he provides irrefutable evidence of the contrary, and you respond with "either way bro," then you are not being polite. I guess I feel kind of weird in feeling like I have to explain that.





diagrammatiks said:


> I still can't believe manny's first words were sorry bro but you didn't order a lefty.





xzacx said:


> Even worse is the response once he provided the screenshot -
> 
> "Either way bro"





Manny must be the online alias of Vince Russo.


----------



## davedeath

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Manny must be the online alias of Vince Russo.




Holy ...., I didn't think anyone else liked wrestling in here. Good comparison. Does this make bischoff jeff ?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

davedeath said:


> Holy ...., I didn't think anyone else liked wrestling in here. Good comparison. Does this make bischoff jeff ?



Or Hulk Hogan. 

Make a name for yourself by being an employee for a previous company (WWF/Carvin), then once you become one of the heads of a new company (WCW/TNA/Kiesel) assert your ego and make the company a living hell for everyone except your buddies (endorsees).


----------



## Dcm81

I know were onto the next problem of not knowing which side is left and right but I just stumbled across this:







So it's not just Kiesel cocking up the height of the fretboard in relation to the bridge, or neck angle, or whatever the cause.......kinda dissapointing though - used to watch a bunch of his youtube vids. Sure the guy looks...........different, but he always made a very educated (in luthier terms) impression on me.

Here's the pic in Large if needed: https://crimsonguitars.com/store/raw-series-descendant-copper-rodded/

EDIT:
After a bit of curious googling, it seems that this is a rather widespread "problem". Just google "custom guitar hipshot bridge and scoure the pics.

This one surprised me! Lepsky Guitars





WTF?!? It's a stock Ibanez RGIR28BFE........are my eyes that crooked or does this look right to you?


----------



## GraemeH

^That's not a Hipshot. The shoulders on that version of the Ibanez Gibraltar bridge are far lower, you can't compare saddle height above them between the two bridges.

If it's within the height range spec for Hipshot then it's not really wrong, more a matter of preference for the feel under your palm (I for example don't mind the hex bolts sticking up out of the bent steel saddle bridges that everyone else hates).

The real issue is when, like OP, you just can't get moderately low or even action. Saddle angle has nothing to do with that.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov

The real problem here is Hipshot's flawed design that renders the bottom 25% and the top 50% of the adjustment uncomfortable. The entire range of adjustment should be comfortable, IMO.


----------



## bostjan

I never understood what the hipshot worship was all about. It's a nice bridge, but it's not going to do anything special. 

I see what you are talking about, and it's an interesting point. I googled hipshot bridge, and a majority of the photos of hardtail bridges have the saddles cranked higher than 75% up. The trem version, interestingly, does not seem to follow that trend.

None of this excuses a builder from delivering a playable instrument, though. I can't comment on the playability of any of these instruments beyond what their owners have pointed out, but it is absolutely an interesting point.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Most builders don't understand the hipshot has a fairly limited room for adjustment before the screws dig into your hand, an easy way to rectify this is to recess the bridge. Or if the saddles are jacked up to high you get the model with the thicker baseplate to bring the saddles back down. Then you redesign the neck heel to bring everything down. 



bostjan said:


> I never understood what the hipshot worship was all about. It's a nice bridge, but it's not going to do anything special.



Its readily available worldwide, inexpensive, very easy to install/setup and looks good since its a slim design.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

I still think the saddle height is a non-issue, at least on the vast majority of guitars. When they're maxed out and still unplayable, that's a problem. 

I've been turned off of kiesel with these recent cs issues, but I think people are sort of piling on at this point. This thread has run its course and it seems kind of pointless to keep it going.


----------



## BouhZik

Useless for you. Not for people interested in kiesel and have no clue about it.


----------



## bostjan

Lorcan Ward said:


> Its readily available worldwide, inexpensive, very easy to install/setup and looks good since its a slim design.



None of those are unique. I could say the same thing about the Fiat, but that doesn't make it a spectacular automobile. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the hipshot is dumb or anything like that, but it's crazy that some people treat it like it's the greatest design ever, yet it has nothing setting it apart from a half dozen of its competitors.



Señor Voorhees said:


> I still think the saddle height is a non-issue, at least on the vast majority of guitars.



Well, I thought the same until I saw DCM81's post and searched google images for myself. There's nothing conclusive, but you have to admit that it is unusual that >70% of photos of guitars with this particular bridge show the saddles stabbing awkwardly upward. Of course this is not a inherent problem with the bridge's design itself as it would be with how well builders are aware of the bridge's design, y'kno'wha'I'mean?


----------



## cwhitey2

bostjan said:


> Well, I thought the same until I saw DCM81's post and searched google images for myself. There's nothing conclusive, but you have to admit that it is unusual that >70% of photos of guitars with this particular bridge show the saddles stabbing awkwardly upward. Of course this is not a inherent problem with the bridge's design itself as it would be with how well builders are aware of the bridge's design, y'kno'wha'I'mean?



I still have not figured why they don't make the saddle edges rounded if it is required to have the saddles at a 70 degree angle...


I have an Agile with a hipshot and the saddles DO NOT come out at an angle like in the pics I have seen recently.


----------



## jwade

The most likely reason for seeing a number of companies having the saddles set really high is probably a matter of bulk ordering. I'm guessing that a lot of builders will order one of the two hipshots in bulk, and instead of using the model with the .175" base, they've ordered the .125" base and have to crank up the saddles.


----------



## Element0s

On the subject of Hipshot--my VSK has one and the saddles poke up about 2-3mm. I actually didn't even notice (or think to check, for that matter) until catching up with this thread. My action is super sleek and not uncomfortable for me at all. It is weird that they don't file the corners off a bit, but I didn't even notice it until I went looking for it. In any case, some of those Aries models look dumb as ..... I call neck pocket issue, which is a tough one because the heel is already beveled off. 

Tough break, 'cuz I rather like the Aries design and was considering ordering one. I'll just stick with my Floyd-equipped axes.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

bostjan said:


> None of those are unique. I could say the same thing about the Fiat, but that doesn't make it a spectacular automobile. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the hipshot is dumb or anything like that, but it's crazy that some people treat it like it's the greatest design ever, yet it has nothing setting it apart from a half dozen of its competitors.



I never said they were unique. They are just the main pros that encourage builders to use the hipshot bridge. As a result its become a stable bridge across guitars now. Personally I think it desperately needs an upgrade, there are a bunch of refinements they could take from the Gilbraltar II.


----------



## lewis

bostjan said:


> I never understood what the hipshot worship was all about. It's a nice bridge, but it's not going to do anything special.
> 
> I see what you are talking about, and it's an interesting point. I googled hipshot bridge, and a majority of the photos of hardtail bridges have the saddles cranked higher than 75% up. The trem version, interestingly, does not seem to follow that trend.
> 
> None of this excuses a builder from delivering a playable instrument, though. I can't comment on the playability of any of these instruments beyond what their owners have pointed out, but it is absolutely an interesting point.



This is so true!!. I remember after seeing all the online hype, and seeing how many guitars were getting the Hipshot on as stock, I ended up playing one in a shop. The Ltd Stephen Carpenter model. Anyway nothing about it wow'd me whatsoever. 
Just another bridge as far as Im concerned.
Also, their Ibanez RG8 Hipshot drop in replacements seem a rip off. They are basically identical to the stock ones  and yet people still bought them??


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the only reason I like hipshots is because they're easy to get a hold of and I know they're relatively better quality than low end chinese bridges where the chrome/gold/black, etc coating wears off the saddles and plate (which I hate).


----------



## bostjan

Lorcan Ward said:


> I never said they were unique. They are just the main pros that encourage builders to use the hipshot bridge. As a result its become a stable bridge across guitars now. Personally I think it desperately needs an upgrade, there are a bunch of refinements they could take from the Gilbraltar II.



I guess I wan't just talking about builders using it, but all of the threads on here about people wanting to yank out their equally nice bridge and replace it with a hipshot.

I mean, I don't mean to start a rant, but Gotoh makes a bridge that is almost hard to tell apart from the hipshot, for half the price. An ABM bridge is the same price. All Parts sells their own house brand bridges that aren't too far off from the hipshot for 1/4th of the price. They are all easily readily available and easily adjusted, and the comfort level is certainly comparable for all of these. So, in that sense, the hipshot doesn't even really measure up. 

But you do see plenty of these other options being used by builders as well.

Anyway...

----------------------

1. The builder needs to build the guitar such that the bridge fits properly, and can be adjusted to a reasonable level of comfort. 

I think that's been established. I also think that we've seen some examples where Kiesel dropped the ball.

2. Whatever the business is, they should never publicly blame their problems on a customer.

I think that's also well established, and it appears that we have more than a few examples of Kiesel doing this as well.

Maybe Kiesel has a couple of problem employees. Maybe it's a small company and they pride themselves on taking good care of their employees. Maybe they don't want to discipline their problem employees for whatever reason. Really, it doesn't matter: at the end of the day, customer A is happy and customer B gets screwed. When you become a customer, you flip a coin as to whether you will be A or B. On the other hand, you could order a custom Agile for a considerable amount less money, receive better customer service, and receive an instrument that might be the same quality. :/


----------



## Señor Voorhees

To be fair, hipshots in general aren't anything super special... It's not like a floyd rose where knife edges get worn out on the soft metals of cheaper ones. I never noticed a huge difference between legit hipshots and similar, but cheap, alternatives.

I'm right there with you in thinking they're a little overhyped. Perhaps even more so, as I can make due with even non-branded models. lol


----------



## Science_Penguin

Señor Voorhees;4724321 said:


> To be fair, hipshots in general aren't anything super special... It's not like a floyd rose where knife edges get worn out on the soft metals of cheaper ones. I never noticed a huge difference between legit hipshots and similar, but cheap, alternatives.
> 
> I'm right there with you in thinking they're a little overhyped. Perhaps even more so, as I can make due with even non-branded models. lol



Now, is that just the fixed bridges or does that include the tremolo systems? I'm curious cause I'm doing a non-locking trem on my Warmoth and I want to know weather the extra money is worth it, or if I should just get a Gotoh.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Science_Penguin said:


> Now, is that just the fixed bridges or does that include the tremolo systems? I'm curious cause I'm doing a non-locking trem on my Warmoth and I want to know weather the extra money is worth it, or if I should just get a Gotoh.



Honestly, a lot of us guys use hipshot because it's also made in the USA. It looks good for marketing. Gotoh is probably just as good unless that matters to you


----------



## Jonathan20022

While there's nothing special about Hipshot hardware, what else can you expect? The hardware is well made and consistent, if there's specific specs of how the bridge should be built into a guitar's body so there is enough space for action adjustment. Then that doesn't fault the hardware manufacturer, it faults the guitar maker. 

My Suhr 7 actually came with the thicker baseplate Hipshot and for normal 1.5mm action height my saddle height screws stick out on the higher strings. Suhr should have used the thinner baseplate for the bridge instead to get it to be an even height and allow the screws to be flush.


----------



## Xaios

BigViolin said:


> Could just be the camera angle.


----------



## -JeKo-

I received my Kiesel today. Feels pretty good but it came with the wrong pickups  Let's see what their customer service says.


----------



## Zado

It's ya fault u liar


----------



## Jonathan20022

Jeez, that's a lot of problems in the span of a week.


----------



## blacai

-JeKo- said:


> I received my Kiesel today. Feels pretty good but it came with the wrong pickups  Let's see what their customer service says.


----------



## diagrammatiks

-JeKo- said:


> I received my Kiesel today. Feels pretty good but it came with the wrong pickups  Let's see what their customer service says.



did you put that you wanted pickups on the order form?


----------



## khm

-JeKo- said:


> I received my Kiesel today. Feels pretty good but it came with the wrong pickups  Let's see what their customer service says.



Bro, it's the right pickups, it's just the camera angle bro


----------



## littleredguitars2




----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> did you put that you wanted pickups on the order form?



Either way bro


----------



## exo

this is the thread that simply will not die.....


----------



## GuitarBizarre

bostjan said:


> I guess I wan't just talking about builders using it, but all of the threads on here about people wanting to yank out their equally nice bridge and replace it with a hipshot.
> 
> I mean, I don't mean to start a rant, but Gotoh makes a bridge that is almost hard to tell apart from the hipshot, for half the price. An ABM bridge is the same price. All Parts sells their own house brand bridges that aren't too far off from the hipshot for 1/4th of the price. They are all easily readily available and easily adjusted, and the comfort level is certainly comparable for all of these. So, in that sense, the hipshot doesn't even really measure up.



Don't forget ETS.

http://www.ets-hardware.com/


----------



## marcwormjim

In a few years, this thread will probably be for those who never received guitars they ordered after Jeff fled to Mexico in a beveled race car.


----------



## mpexus

diagrammatiks said:


> did you put that you wanted pickups on the order form?


----------



## Wolfhorsky

^i miss "like" button...


----------



## GraemeH

-JeKo- said:


> I received my Kiesel today. Feels pretty good but it came with the wrong pickups  Let's see what their customer service says.



Send your right-handed guitar back to get it fixed.

Receive the right pickups in a left-handed guitar back.


----------



## Jeff

KnightBrolaire said:


> seems like he and mike jones are the main problems at kiesel right now excluding the spotty qc.



I think if they canned Manny and Mike Jones, and Papa Kiesel wrestled control back from his dimwitted kid, they'd have a shot at fixing things. Manny was the one who told me a surface crack at a major neck joint area is normal and nothing to worry about on a brand new guitar.


----------



## dmlinger

marcwormjim said:


> Jeff fled to Mexico in a beveled race car.



Came here to show appreciation


----------



## Señor Voorhees

diagrammatiks said:


> did you put that you wanted pickups on the order form?



You know, I really want to see the confirmed specs that dude sent in. If he legitimately DID send confirmation that the spec sheet was right when it wasn't, that's his fault and everyone is mocking Kiesel for nothing. (well, almost nothing. He still keeps calling the guy "bro" in a condescending manner, and they still sent OP a guitar with embarrassing saddles and were .... to them.)

At this point, however, they've done so much shady business, would anyone even believe if it came back in Kiesel's favor? I think it's an interesting predicament they're in right now in that the only way to save face for the time being is to just own up to everything, even if it's not their fault.


----------



## feraledge

diagrammatiks said:


> did you put that you wanted pickups on the order form?





khm said:


> Bro, it's the right pickups, it's just the camera angle bro





MaxOfMetal said:


> Either way bro



*like*


----------



## littleredguitars2

Jeff said:


> I think if they canned Manny and Mike Jones, and Papa Kiesel wrestled control back from his dimwitted kid, they'd have a shot at fixing things. Manny was the one who told me a *surface crack at a major neck joint area is normal and nothing to worry about on a brand new guitar*.



O_O


----------



## icipher

marcwormjim said:


> In a few years, this thread will probably be for those who never received guitars they ordered after Jeff fled to Mexico in a beveled race car.



HAHAHHHAHA


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Seen Jeff on FB yesterday day and he said people make up stories and use camera angles to talk s**t. 

If he really believes this he has problems! Nobody is making these issues up we can clearly see the QC issues and the Rep issues. At this point you think they would be trying to improve and repair the damage that's being done.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Dawn of the Shred said:


> Seen Jeff on FB yesterday day and he said people make up stories and use camera angles to talk s**t.
> 
> If he really believes this he has problems! Nobody is making these issues up we can clearly see the QC issues and the Rep issues. At this point you think they would be trying to improve and repair the damage that's being done.



I'm not surprised he doubled down on that bull..... Even if the OP was trolling, there's other issues that are more serious like sending a right handed guitar to a lefty,etc that still warrant criticism of the company. He really should hire a PR person and stop running his mouth, stop manny from ....posting and probably get rid of mike jones for his .... attitude. Having good PR and good QC would buy them a lot of goodwill. If he wants to make this into a legit business that rivals other more prestigious custom shops he needs to up the professionalism across the board at Kiesel and quit coming off as a dudebro who makes rad finishes that he mostly copies from PRS.


----------



## Mechanos71

diagrammatiks said:


> did you put that you wanted pickups on the order form?



Cold-blooded...


----------



## wannabguitarist

marcwormjim said:


> In a few years, this thread will probably be for those who never received guitars they ordered after Jeff fled to Mexico in a beveled race car.



His beveled race car is actually really f*cking cool


----------



## davedeath

Seems like people are starting to turn on Jeff about things on their BBS...


----------



## diagrammatiks

davedeath said:


> Seems like people are starting to turn on Jeff about things on their BBS...



it's funny because no one has been angrier at jeff then the actual kiesel forum.

it's not supposed to be that way.


----------



## davedeath

diagrammatiks said:


> it's funny because no one has been angrier at jeff then the actual kiesel forum.
> 
> it's not supposed to be that way.



Icon,solo and the semi hollow are bombing hard on there. Some of it is Jeff taking away options or price points. I think I even saw a few post about bad Vader trem routing. They really need to stop with models no one asked for (icon,which I actually really dig) ,some QC and pr person. Why couldn't they name the solo something that makes sense like tlb2 or something? Oh yeah someone's ego..


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Beveled race car


----------



## rifftrauma

-JeKo- said:


> I received my Kiesel today. Feels pretty good but it came with the wrong pickups  Let's see what their customer service says.



Hey man I'd be careful about sending it back. When I sent my Vader back for the retrofit nut they told me I wouldn't have to pay for shipping only parts... I ended up having to pay both when they finished it... Whatever you do with the CS department I'd get it in writing.


----------



## -JeKo-

rifftrauma said:


> Hey man I'd be careful about sending it back. When I sent my Vader back for the retrofit nut they told me I wouldn't have to pay for shipping only parts... I ended up having to pay both when they finished it... Whatever you do with the CS department I'd get it in writing.



I live about 10000 miles away so sending it back is really no option. The best scenario would be to get some $$$ back so that I can buy new pickups and have them installed locally.

Laughed pretty hard reading the recent posts here


----------



## saminator

marcwormjim said:


> In a few years, this thread will probably be for those who never received guitars they ordered after Jeff fled to Mexico in a beveled race car.



Spicy.


----------



## noise in my mind

-JeKo- said:


> I live about 10000 miles away so sending it back is really no option. The best scenario would be to get some $$$ back so that I can buy new pickups and have them installed locally.
> 
> Laughed pretty hard reading the recent posts here



I'm curious how they are going to handle this.


----------



## Science_Penguin

diagrammatiks said:


> it's funny because no one has been angrier at jeff then the actual kiesel forum.
> 
> it's not supposed to be that way.



I just skimmed through it a second ago. Looks pretty normal to me.


----------



## Overtone

LOL the thing with the pickups reminded me that my HH2 came with the wrong radius frets. I didn't select any radius options/upgrades, just the standard 20'' radius yet when I was doing a setup I noticed it was a 15''... which isn't even an option for that model. I love the guitar as is so I never brought it to their attention, plus I noticed it 366 days after ordering the guitar!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Science_Penguin said:


> I just skimmed through it a second ago. Looks pretty normal to me.



I'd imagine the Carvin BBS is heavily moderated, much like their Facebook page is.


----------



## feraledge

noise in my mind said:


> I'm curious how they are going to handle this.



My money is on badly. Probably say bro a bunch too.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

what an average day at Kiesel guitars is like:


----------



## noise in my mind

feraledge said:


> My money is on badly. Probably say bro a bunch too.



Either way bro, I am curious.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Preemptively reaching for popcorn...


----------



## noise in my mind

Jeffbro said:


> Still obsessed about me BRO?
> 
> That's just sad... I feel sorry for you BRO



Fixed*


----------



## technomancer

Seriously guys keep it on-topic and don't get personal or there are going to be a boatload of bans going around.

Back to topic the guy that sent his Vader trem back to get it fixed (photos earlier in the thread) posted an update:



> So I have an update... they took care of it, sort of.... They claimed there was nothing wrong with the route, so I sent Jeff the video, then they sent me a label to return the guitar. They were very responsive via email. asked me if I wanted a rebuild or a refund. I said lets wait to decide till you see the guitar, call me when you get it and we'll work it out.
> 
> I don't hear from them for 3 days, then I get a notice that UPS is delivering the guitar back to me tomorrow. (still no word from Kiesel) I email them and tell them not to ship the guitar back, our agreement was we would decide what to do when they received it.
> 
> no response....
> 
> Guitar arrives and they've obviously rerouted the cavity.
> It works fine, and the route is clean, but aesthetically, the cavity still doesn't match the trem shape. and they ship the guitar back with 10's rather than the 9's that were on the original build. So now it needs a setup.
> I wrote them back, saying hey, what happened, why didn't you contact me? I received the guitar... what exactly did you do to it? and by the way, you put the wrong gauge strings on. Also asked them a question about adjusting the trem bar tension.
> 
> No reply
> 
> I thought about doing a chargeback w Visa cause I was so pissed. It was real obvious they went dark on me so that I couldn't ask for a refund or rebuild. So I got the guitar back, it works functionally, but from their repair its obvious that there is an issue with their CNC programming, and the whole going silent thing is really ....ing shady.


----------



## diagrammatiks

this is just hilarious. IMO, all of these things need to be posted on their Facebook. It's what it's there for. Does no good to only talk about it here. Although sso has killed companies before...


----------



## Ziricote

I think its because all decisions must through Jeff. All employees have to "ask" jeff before doing fixes or returns or answer issues. He isnt available for this situations to answer at all times and because he wants to be the one man show with these control over the decisions. He should find the manager to deal w the issues stuff because he too much to do. This is why I think the silence and long time to fix the issues with lost translation for employees to do. He is in over his head


----------



## feraledge

Ziricote said:


> I think its because all decisions must through Jeff. All employees have to "ask" jeff before doing fixes or returns or answer issues. He isnt available for this situations to answer at all times and because he wants to be the one man show with these control over the decisions. He should find the manager to deal w the issues stuff because he too much to do. This is why I think the silence and long time to fix the issues with lost translation for employees to do. He is in over his head



But he has time to make videos calling customers liars?? I buy none of this.


----------



## prlgmnr

feraledge said:


> But he has time to make videos calling customers liars?? I buy none of this.



I think that's what he meant by "too much to do".


----------



## Kwert

feraledge said:


> But he has time to make videos calling customers liars?? I buy none of this.





I seem to recall similar occurrences with another company that shall remain nameless...


----------



## davedeath

diagrammatiks said:


> this is just hilarious. IMO, all of these things need to be posted on their Facebook. It's what it's there for. Does no good to only talk about it here. Although sso has killed companies before...



This needs to be brought up on a live stream


----------



## possumkiller

Kwert said:


> I seem to recall similar occurrences with another company that shall remain nameless...



Why should it remain nameless?


----------



## exo

possumkiller said:


> Why should it remain nameless?




It's a pretty obvious reference to either S7G or BRJ........or maybe both.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

possumkiller said:


> Why should it remain nameless?



It's Strictly 7.


----------



## marcwormjim

I prefer the customer-bashing from Jerf Seagull's lying head to watching Jim Lewis all red and sweaty, looking like


----------



## Kwert

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's Strictly 7.



Yeah, I was referring to Jim's hour-long YouTube rants where he would bash customers, and then rant about how he doesn't have time to check his e-mail (even though he has time to make hour-long rant videos).


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Heck even in jeffs looooong live videos, he comes off rude and erigent.... maybe he's just delusional.


----------



## bostjan

I think Jeff is a talented builder, but I never detected an ounce of humility in his videos. I'm getting the strong impression that he is not a good boss, and that's where these problems seem to stem. If he had someone else, more business-minded to whom to answer, he might be able to become much more sought after.


----------



## feraledge

Is there reason to believe Jeff is a talented builder though? We see the same quality issues on K series as base models. That's the thing, you're just upgrading pieces with an expensive Kiesel , largely the build quality is good to great, but if take any of their competitors and then get into custom specs, you get bumped to more attentive builders. That's why Jackson has Custom Select and Master Built. Even with a couple big snafus on their end, you know the build quality increases with the price. This is seemingly not true for Kiesel. Jeff might be a fine luthier, but he's not on par with any other builders we know by name. Which makes sense Carvin/Kiesel is the family business.


----------



## BigViolin

Talented builders figure out neck pocket depth before they release the model.


----------



## -JeKo-

BigViolin said:


> Talented builders figure out neck pocket depth before they release the model.



That's probably the problem with Kiesel. They release a new model once every two weeks and probably don't spend too much time testing those new designs before making them available to the public.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

-JeKo- said:


> That's probably the problem with Kiesel. They release a new model once every two weeks and probably don't spend too much time testing those new designs before making them available to the public.



Its funny because I remember Carvin wouldn't release some guitars because to them, they wouldn't be ergonomically feasable.


----------



## Jake

-JeKo- said:


> That's probably the problem with Kiesel. They release a new model once every two weeks and probably don't spend too much time testing those new designs before making them available to the public.



This...honestly it seems like its literally every week "!!! OMG NEW MODEL GET YER ORDERS IN NOW!! Jeff said to do it so you know its gonna be good. "

I was initially excited about the Vader and the Aries but after seeing all of the Aries related issues...nah and then seeing the customer service disaster...double nah. I'll take an EBMM at the same price point every time and I have


----------



## Viginez

-JeKo- said:


> That's probably the problem with Kiesel. They release a new model once every two weeks and probably don't spend too much time testing those new designs before making them available to the public.


very possible. trying to grow too fast or trying to take the company to the next level. and the result is what you see.
it happens to a lot of companies with no clear/professional business-plan besides fast profit.


----------



## Hollowway

Jake said:


> This...honestly it seems like its literally every week "!!! OMG NEW MODEL GET YER ORDERS IN NOW!! Jeff said to do it so you know its gonna be good. "
> 
> I was initially excited about the Vader and the Aries but after seeing all of the Aries related issues...nah and then seeing the customer service disaster...double nah. I'll take an EBMM at the same price point every time and I have



Same. I was thisclose to buying the in stock Aries 7 in pink. But I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle of the bridge saddles, and the potential to not be able to rectify the situation with them.


----------



## beerandbeards

Youtube's Tone King did this factory tour of Kiesel. Jeff kind of talks ill of other companies


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

beerandbeards said:


> Youtube's Tone King did this factory tour of Kiesel. Jeff kind of talks ill of other companies



Wrong url, you probably meant this one:


----------



## beerandbeards

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Wrong url, you probably meant this one:




Thanks dude. Stupid youtube ad...


----------



## spudmunkey

beerandbeards said:


> Youtube's Tone King did this factory tour of Kiesel. Jeff kind of talks ill of other companies



Is there a specific comment you're talking about? I've only heard him mention "some companies...some *big* companies", but nothing specific. He did mention Jackson specifically, but only to say that Carvin's pointy inline headstock was too close to Jackson's, and Jackson asked them to stop making it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jake said:


> This...honestly it seems like its literally every week "!!! OMG NEW MODEL GET YER ORDERS IN NOW!! Jeff said to do it so you know its gonna be good. "



I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. It's not like they don't start work on the next one until one is launched, spend 2 weeks on it, put it out, and start working on the next one. I think what we are seeing here is the wave of development from the first full year of being a separate company, and a few things they were holding back until they got into the new factory.


Here are some examples:

What is the Solo? Literally just a tele-shaped Aries, which is a guitar they have been making for well over a year. Mark Kiesel was working on the original Solo some time ago and it took a while to come out. That even went though some revisions as they experimented with slightly different body outlines and control locations.

The Vanquish Multiscale bass: people were HOUNDING them for the multiscale bass (anyone remember the joke about adding 2 weeks every time someone asked about it?) after he said they were working on it. They even showed teaser images of some of the prototypes, and it was a NECK-THROUGH. He even said it was going to be an Icon bass...then when it was release as a Vanquish, he said say in a Q&A that they had tried and tried but just weren't satisfied with the results, so they changed direction until they came up with a design that worked for them.

The Vanquish guitar: they did enough testing on it that they decided to not offer certain headstocks on it to reduce balance issues, which has always been important to them. I think it's one of the reasons there's no SCB extended scale or 8-string (which Jeff has said is one of his favorite models)...at least not yet, anyway.

The Chris Letchford: No idea on that one. Like the Holdsworth and Bromberg, the design very well may have come from Chris. I can't say either way, though...but it's the same bridge and hardware they have been using for a couple years now on the Vader. The only differences are body shape and Chris's desired control layout.

The Amos Williams is just a Vader with a couple of artist-requested tweaks. The main difference (only one of two) is the pickup location which was a result of months of the artist playing a prototype with a pickup route that allowed him to try all sorts of different positions. After much experimentation (I remember noticing that two videos he posted while playing this bass had the pickup in different locations, showing that he was genuinely testing it) and he picked this one.

We know the GH3 (that launched near NAMM) was out there for months and months before it launched (at the very least July 2016 in a seemingly production-ready spec in white paint) because Greg Howe was playing a prototype back then.

You can dislike the results of said testing or feel that it just wasn't enough, for sure...but I don't think having a bunch of models come out in a short time frame necessarily has anything to do with not testing anything.


----------



## beerandbeards

spudmunkey said:


> Is there a specific comment you're talking about? I've only heard him mention "some companies...some *big* companies", but nothing specific. He did mention Jackson specifically, but only to say that Carvin's pointy inline headstock was too close to Jackson's, and Jackson asked them to stop making it.



There was a few such as "paying for woods up front" "we're #1". Just seemed he was talking his brand up compared to others which is fine. I have no horse in the race either way but I thought he was relevant to the thread for everyone to see their operation. I don't own any Kiesel and at this point am loyal to EBMM. So "take me as I am" (see what I did there) or take the the video as you will


----------



## spudmunkey

I suppose I could see that, but I have zero issue with any company saying why their practices might be better than others, even when (or sometimes especially when) they don't call out anyone specifically. They mention that they buy their koa direct from the Hawaiian source and have been buying from the same guy for decades, so they get first dibs. Unless it's a lie, it would make sense to talk up that relationship.

There's a jewelry store chair around here where in every commercial, they mention that they get better pricing and higher quality diamonds because they buy direct from the diamond...whatever it is, and pay up front so they supposedly get the best of the best, at the best prices." Hell, Wendy's tags McDonalds when McDonalds just said they were going to use non-frozen beef in some burgers, and Wendy's calling them out publicly with something like "So you're saying you're still using frozen beef for all of your other burgers?"

I think as long as what they are saying isn't a lie, it's fair game. I know it rubs some people the wrong way when they use the passive aggressive, "_some_ companies..." without giving specifics...but I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to.


----------



## NemesisTheory

I've ordered many Carvins and Kiesels over the years. I do declare that I am thus very wise, worldy, and experienced and have the excuse to ramble for a moment or two. 

My very first order years ago with Carvin got royally screwed up. The salesman had somehow not put my order through. I waited and waited, thinking it was being built, and when I found out it wasn't, I was pissed. I chewed a hole in somebody out there. Some time passed, and I just felt like I should give them another chance because I'd been through a whole lot worse with other custom shops, so I gave it a shot. I got my first 727, and was blown away. Still have it, and its still one of the most gorgeous guitars I've owned. From there on, I kept coming back, and they (especially Eddie, Keith, and Chris) treated me very well. Everybody has always been willing to answer questions and try to get me the guitar I want. 

Having been around before Jeff, and now for a while after he took the lead, I can say that a lot has changed. They've added more customer demanded stuff than anybody I can think of. The options have increased to an almost loony level of just about getting any wood or color combo you can think of. That has kept me around, because I have had too many damn guitars and it requires some stretching to justify buying more, and for things to entice me. It does suck in the way that some of this stuff I wanted years ago, they would not do no way no how. Sucks for me and I get why it irritates people. Lets them get my money for more builds that spew out of my brain though. But that was Papa Kiesel running the show back then, and I still have some amazing guitars from those years that I wouldn't change. 

I've spoken with Jeff enough that I felt like I got a good handle on the kind of guy he is. I think he tends to say what is on his mind whether anyone likes it or not, which may not be the best for public relations with some people. To me, its mostly fine. I don't need people to sugarcoat things or beat around the bush. I don't agree with all of what he's said, or at least the way he said it. He's putting himself out there, which is unusual and has backfired a few times. Its also helped in maintaining a flow of information to existing and new customers. If guitars were drugs, he's a dealer because he's always hanging something out there you just gotta have. And I think he's really into it. I've been into custom guitars for 20 years and there's nothing like what he's doing with being the face and main contact point in a company like this. You will hear him say "Hey, what do you guys think of this? What do you wanna see?" He makes his opinions known. In talking to him, I found him honest and very willing to speak openly. He seems to talk like someone you've known a long time, which is pretty cool. I will say that I found that he is different in conversation vs the sort of salesman type personality you sometimes see in the videos. I liked the dude, and I don't like many people. 

Of all my builds, I had some playability issues with one. I made it known, and they let me know if it wasn't something I could fix myself, they'd take care of it. I fixed it and it was fine. I returned one build because I was unsatisfied with the wood. That was the only time I ever got one and was really underwhelmed. I got a rebuild after a little bit of a headache, but they made it right and I was blown away with the 2nd guitar. I have a good friend who had a fairly serious issue with a recent build. I can't say what caused the issue. The guitar didn't arrive with it. It developed, so it could've been environmental or the wood itself. It took more time than it should've for them to resolve it, but they did resolve it and he's happy. Years in, I've had nothing like it arise with any of mine, nor any quality issues not attributable to time and wear and tear. I'll add that I tend to stick to neck thru builds of various woods, always stainless steel frets, and I mostly stay with Floyds. I can't speak to Vaders or some of the new bolt models. 

Just a comment on Jackson too. I've spent up to 4K on a 7 string Jackson that didn't play nearly as good as a $1500 Carvin, and had full Jackson custom shop builds that didn't play as well as a USA Select. I've also got custom shop Jacksons that are as amazing as anything I've ever owned. It varies with any company. In all these years, I have never once had an employee of Carvin/Kiesel say a single bad thing about any other guitar company by name or very rarely even by suggestion in comparison to theirs. I have no problem with Jeff saying we do this or that better than unmentionable others. Its his company and he should stand by it. I tend to agree that they do a lot of things better since I'm a repeat customer. 

Just wanted to throw this in here as my experience has been. Custom guitars can be a risky thing to be into and are costly so I get the worry and anxiety. I hope the people having issues can resolve them.


----------



## marcwormjim

There's got to be a shorter way of saying nothing at all.


----------



## bostjan

Cool story, Nemesis, but have you read the thread? I'm assuming not, so let me catch you up...

This most recent Aries run has, apparently, a design flaw, where the neck is too thick for the pocket. We've seen, just in the past few days, two customers banned from ever purchasing another Kiesel, merely for pointing out the issue that makes the guitar unplayable, without carefully modifying the wood on the guitar. One was a long time repeat customer, like you.

This points out two active and very serious problems with the company: 1. Quality Control: unplayable guitars should not be shipped to customers, and 2. Customer Service: rather than act adult about it, Kiesel, shockingly, has thrown a temper tantrum directed at their customers.

In the course of the discussion, several past stories have been brought up, but didn't originate in the thread.

So how many times is it acceptable for a company to ship an unplayable guitar to the customer and then refuse to guarantee their rework? Zero. And how many do we have here? Two.

Clearly unacceptable.


----------



## Matt08642

Something I don't get is how I'm sure Jeff has numerous personal Aries models with Hipshot hardware. Does he not experience the same issues? If he "corrects" anything (thicker baseplate, neck angle, pocket depth) past what the factory churns out then he's a massive hypocrite. If he doesn't notice the issues, then he must be blind.


----------



## Zado

But how come all this **** reached the surface just now?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Zado said:


> But how come all this **** reached the surface just now?



Probably because, until recently, they [Kiesel] always made sure to make things right for the customer. 

Look at the zero fret issue on the Vaders. While I don't think they handled the situation perfectly they at least tried to make it right for everyone in the end. 

The refusal to do rebuilds and accept returns like they used to points to either greed, or likely issues related to cash flow, which is possible given the huge cash outlay needed for thier new facility.


----------



## bostjan

Zado said:


> But how come all this **** reached the surface just now?



It really isn't that sudden. Kiesel has been facing more and more controversy ever since Jeff took over, maybe even before. What are horror stories of customer service and QC now were stories of frustrated customers last year, some annoying things from the year before, and some silly things from before that.


----------



## fps

Zado said:


> But how come all this **** reached the surface just now?



I don't know what's going on with the company.

But they have suddenly started releasing an awful lot of models. And I wonder whether that's got something to do with what appears to be a jump in issues of miscommunication and unsatisfied customers.


----------



## raadoo

fps said:


> I don't know what's going on with the company.
> 
> But they have suddenly started releasing an awful lot of models. And I wonder whether that's got something to do with what appears to be a jump in issues of miscommunication and unsatisfied customers.



Aaaaand thet just released the Aries bass.
Couldn't help myself and I asked _For a company that touts "not doing it for the money", why does every live feed boil down to "here's a special price for x if you buy today" or "here's a new model; buy now at special price"._
Jeff picked it up and answered (paraphrasing, of course) that he gives us these deal because it's in our interest to save some cash, while for Kiesel it's a matter of offering choices no one else does and putting out models based on customers requesting them. 
He also mentioned doing this for customers, despite being at full capacity and overworking his guys to make good on the increased demand.

Take from that what you will.


----------



## Hollowway

Aaaand now Kiesels are over $5000. Check this one out: in stock for $5200! That's a $200 savings off the regular $5400, because it was an endorser loaner, and has signs of wear, scratches and dents. And, of course, no returns accepted. What IS Jeff smoking, and could he start selling that as well?


----------



## cwhitey2

Hollowway said:


> Aaaand now Kiesels are over $5000. Check this one out: in stock for $5200! That's a $200 savings off the regular $5400, because it was an endorser loaner, and has signs of wear, scratches and dents. And, of course, no returns accepted. What IS Jeff smoking, and could he start selling that as well?




I would like some as well.


I'm starting to think he has some serious personal issues.


----------



## BigViolin

$3000 upcharge for the flamey neck, sweet top (7A!!!) and the high e saddle that's trying to escape.


----------



## m107a1

Hollowway said:


> Aaaand now Kiesels are over $5000. Check this one out: in stock for $5200! That's a $200 savings off the regular $5400, because it was an endorser loaner, and has signs of wear, scratches and dents. And, of course, no returns accepted. What IS Jeff smoking, and could he start selling that as well?



OMFG neither of my ESP exhibition limiteds were anywhere near that much


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Seriously, take a look over on Sweetwater and see what you can get for $5200. That's bonkers for a Kiesel. 

It completely defeats the purpose, as far as I'm concerned. The draw of Carvin was always that you could get a decent MIA guitar with semi-custom options priced extremely competitively. It seems so strange to me that people are willing to go so crazy with the options that they end up paying that kind of money for a Kiesel.


----------



## m107a1

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Seriously, take a look over on Sweetwater and see what you can get for $5200. That's bonkers for a Kiesel.
> 
> It completely defeats the purpose, as far as I'm concerned. The draw of Carvin was always that you could get a decent MIA guitar with semi-custom options priced extremely competitively. It seems so strange to me that people are willing to go so crazy with the options that they end up paying that kind of money for a Kiesel.



Hell I want the Jackson Custom Select Rhoads on Sweetwater. It's overpriced at $4K and vastly superior to every Kiesel ever made...combined.


----------



## Steinmetzify

You know how to make a Kiesel worth $2500?
















You pay $5200 for it....


----------



## A-Branger

Hollowway said:


> Aaaand now Kiesels are over $5000. Check this one out: in stock for $5200! That's a $200 savings off the regular $5400, because it was an endorser loaner, and has signs of wear, scratches and dents. And, of course, no returns accepted. What IS Jeff smoking, and could he start selling that as well?



putting the ridiculous price tag for an used guitar aside. That its a beautiful top with a beautiful stain job.

I usually dont like much their stain color options, but dude that top color looks sick


----------



## BigViolin

steinmetzify


It's the new PT Barnum signature model!

I thought Henry over at Gibson was the only one so crass as to claim the total BS 7A thing.


----------



## mnemonic

Can't wait until he gets his hands on a 20A top.

Can you imagine the bevels he could achieve?!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Seriously, take a look over on Sweetwater and see what you can get for $5200. That's bonkers for a Kiesel.
> 
> It completely defeats the purpose, as far as I'm concerned. The draw of Carvin was always that you could get a decent MIA guitar with semi-custom options priced extremely competitively. It seems so strange to me that people are willing to go so crazy with the options that they end up paying that kind of money for a Kiesel.



Isnt that what Jeff wants? He wants to move Kiesel from a budget friendly semi custom shop to a boutique company like PRS or Mayones. 

Only problem is that's a dumb ....ing move because there wasn't, and there still aren't, a lot of budget friendly USA built, semi custom guitar companies. That's a perfect niche. There's already tens of hundreds of boutique builders these days


----------



## mnemonic

That won't satiate the ego though.


----------



## noise in my mind

$5200, that's really strange. I think Jeff is out of his mind.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Isnt that what Jeff wants? He wants to move Kiesel from a budget friendly semi custom shop to a boutique company like PRS or Mayones.
> 
> Only problem is that's a dumb ....ing move because there wasn't, and there still aren't, a lot of budget friendly USA built, semi custom guitar companies. That's a perfect niche. There's already tens of hundreds of boutique builders these days



It's all about the margins.


----------



## DarthV

Slightly offtopic, but damn...all that birdseye!


----------



## bostjan

Taking the insanity to the next bevel. 


That bridge is pushing the limits of it's adjustment range..


----------



## davedeath

cwhitey2 said:


> I would like some as well.
> 
> 
> I'm starting to think he has some serious personal issues.



He has spoken about being alcoholic and anger issues, well in a round about way in his early videos . Maybe more therapy ,less wood?


----------



## Casper777

Hollowway said:


> Aaaand now Kiesels are over $5000. Check this one out: in stock for $5200! That's a $200 savings off the regular $5400, because it was an endorser loaner, and has signs of wear, scratches and dents. And, of course, no returns accepted. What IS Jeff smoking, and could he start selling that as well?




Pfffff... 5200 and it doesn't even has that famous "Insane vomito puke nebula burst" finish... 


Joke aside, that's about just shy of some of Suhr most expensive guitars... seriously, who would ever get a Kiesel over a Suhr for the same price?!? (especially THAT price)


----------



## MrYakob

bostjan said:


> *Taking the insanity to the next bevel. *
> 
> 
> That bridge is pushing the limits of it's adjustment range..



You owe me a new keyboard because I just spit my coffee out everywhere.....


----------



## exo

bostjan said:


> Taking the insanity to the next bevel.
> 
> 
> That bridge is pushing the limits of it's adjustment range..




 
Aren't those things pretty much the new Keisel design standards?


----------



## MetalThrasher

I really want to have whatever Jeff is smoking! $5000 for a Carvin/Kiesel.... WOW and no returns. Wonder how many months / years this one will be in stock?


----------



## oracles

For a mere $9K plus shipping, you could be the unfortunate owner of this http://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/125378


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

He's absolutely out of his mind if he thinks anyone would pay that for one of his guitars!


----------



## Matt08642

LMAO holy christ, that high E saddle

GG Jeff


----------



## bostjan

oracles said:


> For a mere $9K plus shipping, you could be the unfortunate owner of this http://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/125378



But it's normally $9100, so you save $100...wait, did I seriously just read that?

Option 50, of course.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Really banking on someone who:

1. has that much money to blow on guitars
2. is willing to blow said money on a SINGLE guitar
and 3. shares enough of Jeff's weird taste to even consider owning this one even just as something to put on display in the house.

So, in other words, the market for this is almost exclusively rich eccentrics who like collecting weird guitars.


----------



## stevexc

But it comes with a free custom-made case!


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

bostjan said:


> But it's normally $9100, so you save $100...wait, did I seriously just read that?
> 
> Option 50, of course.



 He's probably just going to do a live video and call everyone liers anyway for not thinking this is a great deal!


----------



## oracles

Science_Penguin said:


> Really banking on someone who:
> 
> 1. has that much money to blow on guitars
> 2. is willing to blow said money on a SINGLE guitar
> and 3. shares enough of Jeff's weird taste to even consider owning this one even just as something to put on display in the house.
> 
> So, in other words, the market for this is almost exclusively rich eccentrics who like collecting weird guitars.



I doubt that crowd is sitting there like _"$9k on a Kiesel? Yeah, that's a good investment"_ That crowd normally goes for the Tueffel, Toone etc type stuff, I can't see them dropping that kind of cash on a Kiesel.


----------



## Science_Penguin

oracles said:


> I doubt that crowd is sitting there like _"$9k on a Kiesel? Yeah, that's a good investment"_ That crowd normally goes for the Tueffel, Toone etc type stuff, I can't see them dropping that kind of cash on a Kiesel.



Yeah, that too... Call that Point #4.


----------



## Zado

They really know how to take pics tho


----------



## Beefmuffin

Zado said:


> They really know how to take pics tho



Unless you specifically ask for them to.....


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Why is there such an up charge? Is it one of the Kiesel editions that he oversees?


----------



## sezna

Is he trying to raise market value? Should we all go buy some $1k kiesels on Reverb?


----------



## TheTrooper

steinmetzify said:


> You know how to make a Kiesel worth $2500?
> 
> 
> 
> You pay $5200 for it....



Ba Dum.
Tss.


----------



## J_Mac

Woah, interesting thread. Though none of this surprises me cos all the social media I see from Kiesel is about aesthetics rather than playability. It's all 'look at this top' etc. Wonder how Letchford is getting on with them....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

J_Mac said:


> Woah, interesting thread. Though none of this surprises me cos all the social media I see from Kiesel is about aesthetics rather than playability. It's all 'look at this top' etc. Wonder how Letchford is getting on with them....



Given the stories I've heard of Chris... He probably gets along very well.


----------



## laxu

Lorcan Ward said:


> Why is there such an up charge? Is it one of the Kiesel editions that he oversees?



Artist guitar and the finish is a pretty big upcharge. Very nice woods picked for it too. Still, it's a used guitar, non-refundable so that price is just wack. Take out about $1500-2000 and it would be more understandable. I really like it overall but would not pay that much.


----------



## mitou

Jeff is the Rob Liefeld of guitars


----------



## MetalThrasher

I hope that Jeff gets his mind back on track! I have a few Carvin's and I really like them for the price point I paid for them back in the day. However, the current pricing is getting out of control. My best player and guitar in my stable is still my Jackson custom 7 from our SS run a few years ago and it's still a hell of a lot less than this!


----------



## Hollowway

The top and stain are definitely cool, but I'm willing to bet there's some photography to thank for the contrast/saturation.


----------



## Hollowway

Also, my bad: it's $400 off the original price. I think they changed the price last night. So, officially that guitar is $5600. If you're a California resident, you're looking at over $6100 to get a new guitar like that. Can you imagine what Daemoness could do for $6100? Dang....


----------



## technomancer

Hollowway said:


> Also, my bad: it's $400 off the original price. I think they changed the price last night. So, officially that guitar is $5600. If you're a California resident, you're looking at over $6100 to get a new guitar like that. Can you imagine what Daemoness could do for $6100? Dang....



So that or a used Private Stock.... hmmm decisions decisions


----------



## spudmunkey

MetalThrasher said:


> I really want to have whatever Jeff is smoking! $5000 for a Carvin/Kiesel.... WOW and no returns. Wonder how many months / years this one will be in stock?



They list it there on the website, sure, but I guarantee if it sells it'll be from their store or at NAMM.

The "no returns" stops people from buying a $5,000+ guitar and then returning it over and over again. For what it's worth, my local mom and pop will let you return a Squire, but they have no return on their Suhrs and high-end PRSs.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> They list it there on the website, sure, but I guarantee if it sells it'll be from their store or at NAMM.
> 
> The "no returns" stops people from buying a $5,000+ guitar and then returning it over and over again. For what it's worth, my local mom and pop will let you return a Squire, but they have no return on their Suhrs and high-end PRSs.



True, but the description says there are scratches, dents, and signs of wear, as it's a used instrument. For me, unless I could either play it or at least know what and where these flaws are, I'd be worried about spending that kind of money.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

oracles said:


> For a mere $9K plus shipping, you could be the unfortunate owner of this http://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/125378



Too bad it's not left handed with Misha's name attached. We all know there's at least one buyer in that case.



> So that or a used Private Stock.... hmmm decisions decisions



Hmmmm... Hard choice. I mean... A quality instrument sounds good, but come on... It's got scratches, AND it was owned by someone sort of famous. No returns!? ....ing sign me RIGHT up. I'll take the Kiesel! /sarcasm


----------



## Jujex

MetalThrasher said:


> I hope that Jeff gets his mind back on track! I have a few Carvin's and I really like them for the price point I paid for them back in the day. However, the current pricing is getting out of control. My best player and guitar in my stable is still my Jackson custom 7 from our SS run a few years ago and it's still a hell of a lot less than this!



If only the wait times weren't 3+ years 

I would drop 5 grand on a Masterbuilt Jackson but I would not on a Kiesel even if you can get much more from Kiesel edition than you can from a Jackson. I love my Aries 7 however but still, a Jackson is something else.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

We should start a Kickstarter to buy that guitar. Then burn it. On live stream


----------



## feraledge

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> We should start a Kickstarter to buy that guitar. Then burn it. On live stream



Better yet, just make realistic offers for it on Reverb. I'm thinking $115.
https://reverb.com/item/3686185-kiesel-carvin-falcon-double-neck-dual-7-string-custom-one-off-guitar-antique-ash-aqua


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> We should start a Kickstarter to buy that guitar. Then burn it. On live stream



So much yes to this!!!!


----------



## noise in my mind

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> We should start a Kickstarter to buy that guitar. Then burn it. On live stream



Hmmm, not a bad idea. I'm in.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> We should start a Kickstarter to buy that guitar. Then burn it. On live stream



Implying that Kiesel gives a crap about the guitar after being paid handsomely for it.


----------



## Aso

Jujex said:


> If only the wait times weren't 3+ years.



My masterbuilt Jackson King V took 8 months so it's not always that long of a wait. I also know that I got lucky with that build time.


----------



## Steinmetzify

MaxOfMetal said:


> Implying that Kiesel gives a crap about the guitar after being paid handsomely for it.



Yeah, the best punishment for creating that abomination is that it sits there for decades and never sells.


----------



## Jujex

Aso said:


> My masterbuilt Jackson King V took 8 months so it's not always that long of a wait. I also know that I got lucky with that build time.



Good to know. I wonder if there is any room for negotiation for the fees.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

This guitar will out live all of us!


----------



## Señor Voorhees

MaxOfMetal said:


> Implying that Kiesel gives a crap about the guitar after being paid handsomely for it.



It'd bruise Jeff's fragile ego. He'd blacklist everyone who participated, which would be worth it to me.


----------



## feraledge

Señor Voorhees;4728542 said:


> It'd bruise Jeff's fragile ego. He'd blacklist everyone who participated, which would be worth it to me.



Jeff's fragile ego is why he's going to be continually reading this thread and looking to ban anyone he suspects (regardless of grounding) that they're just going to report back to SSO.


----------



## fps

Wow, look how far this thread has run. If there's one thing that unites people on sevenstring, it's complaining about someone in an attempt to ruin their reputation, even if they have a terrific track record, and especially if you're not involved directly.


----------



## BouhZik

fps said:


> Wow, look how far this thread has run. If there's one thing that unites people on sevenstring, it's complaining about someone in an attempt to ruin their reputation, even if they have a terrific track record, and especially if you're not involved directly.



I guess it's what happen when you have a good reputation and start doing bull..... your reputation takes a hit.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

fps said:


> Wow, look how far this thread has run. If there's one thing that unites people on sevenstring, it's complaining about someone in an attempt to ruin their reputation, even if they have a terrific track record, and especially if you're not involved directly.



If there is one thing to take away from builders is that a "terrific track record" can so easily mean nothing. 

It's not a "one and done" situation. There isn't a finite amount of guitars that you can build before you are beyond reproach. 

If you want to remain in favor, you need to constantly strive to be the brand of choice. To rest on your laurels is setting yourself up to take a hit.

Why don't you ask the four or five guys who meet your arbitrary guidelines for being able to complain who have had a terrible experience just how much strangers' previous builds mean to them.


----------



## Hollowway

fps said:


> Wow, look how far this thread has run. If there's one thing that unites people on sevenstring, it's complaining about someone in an attempt to ruin their reputation, even if they have a terrific track record, and especially if you're not involved directly.



Yeah, because that's what happened to BRJ, Siggery, DAR, etc. 
SSO has no power to bring down a luthier. We do, however, have the ability to help each other avoid pitfalls. When you're screwed out of thousands of dollars by a luthier, you'll start to understand the desire to get actual feedback when considering companies to build your guitar.


----------



## Jeffbro

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, because that's what happened to BRJ, Siggery, DAR, etc.
> SSO has no power to bring down a luthier. We do, however, have the ability to help each other avoid pitfalls. When you're screwed out of thousands of dollars by a luthier, you'll start to understand the desire to get actual feedback when considering companies to build your guitar.



Let's be real, the thread has gone way beyond that

The last few pages have been people with nothing better to do just finding their most expensive builds and talking trash

We get the point, they have QC and PR issues, but they still produce solid quality reasonably priced custom guitars the vast majority of the time.

A dozen people complaining out of thousands of customers are still less than 1%. People claiming Kiesels are crap most of the time or are worse than WMIs and PRS SEs are just hilarious. By that logic, Gibson USA must be crap too because apparently once in a while they let out a lemon.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

fps said:


> Wow, look how far this thread has run. If there's one thing that unites people on sevenstring, it's complaining about someone in an attempt to ruin their reputation, even if they have a terrific track record, and especially if you're not involved directly.



So we are just supposed to sit and say nothing to inform people before paying hard earned money? It's not our fault that these issues keep coming up and that Jeff constantly and continues to act like he's does and calls customers lires cause they bring up honest issues with QC and CS.


----------



## oracles

Jeffbro said:


> The last few pages have been people with nothing better to do just finding their most expensive builds and talking trash



Meanwhile in between bans, it seems as though you've got nothing better to do than run around to every thread that mentions Jeff or Kiesel at all and continually try and do damage control for a brand that seemingly couldn't care less about it's current public image and if anything, seems to be hell bent on reducing it further. Doesn't it get exhausting having to go from forum to forum, thread to thread trying to be the Kiesel apologist hero?


----------



## Jeffbro

oracles said:


> Meanwhile in between bans, it seems as though you've got nothing better to do than run around to every thread that mentions Jeff or Kiesel at all and continually try and do damage control for a brand that seemingly couldn't care less about it's current public image and if anything, seems to be hell bent on reducing it further. Doesn't it get exhausting having to go from forum to forum, thread to thread trying to be the Kiesel apologist hero?



It's a forum, I've had multiple Kiesels in the past that were great instruments, I can defend them if I want. It's better than people who never owned or bought from them jumping on the hater bandwagon.

Better question is, doesn't it get exhausting following me wherever I go, and obsessively picking at my every post? There's a few of you who keep doing this and got banned, I suggest you stop.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Jeffbro said:


> By that logic, Gibson USA must be crap too because apparently once in a while they let out a lemon.



Hello, and welcome to sevenstring.org! Since you must obviously be brand new here, let me let you in on a little secret: SSO sh!ts on Gibson _all the time_. It's been happening since long before Carvin became Kiesel, and it will continue to happen. Being a big name definitely didn't make them beyond reproach.


----------



## cwhitey2

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Hello, and welcome to sevenstring.org! Since you must obviously be brand new here, let me let you in on a little secret: SSO sh!ts on Gibson _all the time_. It's been happening since long before Carvin became Kiesel, and it will continue to happen. Being a big name definitely didn't make them beyond reproach.



Hating on Gibson here is everyone's favorite hobby


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jeffbro said:


> .
> Better question is, doesn't it get exhausting following me wherever I go, and obsessively picking at my every post? There's a few of you who keep doing this and got banned, I suggest you stop.



It's less of everyone following you, and you appearing in the middle of popular threads. 

It's not like people are scoping you out in every nook and cranny. You're coming in one of the most hottest posts on the Standard Guitar subforum. You're painting a target on yourself by continuing this, even after 2 bans.


----------



## Jeffbro

Grand Moff Tim said:


> SSO sh!ts on Gibson _all the time_. It's been happening since long before Carvin became Kiesel, and it will continue to happen. Being a big name definitely didn't make them beyond reproach.



Not the point I'm making. Yeah you can bag on Gibson, but can you generalize and say all Gibsons are bad quality? Can you say they are generally worse than Epiphone? Same With Kiesel, a few lemons does not make Kiesels bad quality and worse than Korean guitars, which is what a lot of people are claiming.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's less of everyone following you, and you appearing in the middle of popular threads.
> 
> It's not like people are scoping you out in every nook and cranny. You're coming in one of the most hottest posts on the Standard Guitar subforum. You're painting a target on yourself by continuing this, even after 2 bans.



I'm just stating my opinion, people apparently can't tolerate anyone with different views and starting using personal attacks because they can't refute any of my arguments


----------



## USMarine75

Jeffbro said:


> Not the point I'm making. Yeah you can bag on Gibson, but can you generalize and say all Gibsons are bad quality? Can you say they are generally worse than Epiphone? Same With Kiesel, a few lemons does not make Kiesels bad quality guitars, which is what a lot of people are claiming.



No, but I can say a large Gibson authorized dealer sent me 4 replacement USA Gibson V guitars for one that I returned that were all junk. One had pickup cavities that weren't squared to the neck, another had a misaligned bridge, two had twisted necks, one had a cracked headstock... 

The one I finally kept has a major finish flaw, where the paint is all massively cracked from headstock to heel joint along the fretboard/neck seam. They said it was their last one and that since it was the best of the group I should either return it, or just get it repainted at no cost since it was under warranty. I spoke with Gibson and they said it would be covered and that I just needed to bring it to an authorized repair center.

I brought it to their recommended repair place (3 months old at this point) and he kept it for 3 months and then finally said he can't repaint it because it's a special paint that can only be done at the factory (gold flecks in red paint?). I said fine, let's send it back to factory, and Gibson said they wouldn't repaint it. Literally the worst guitar I own. Far worse QC than any MIK, MIC, or MIM guitar I've ever owned or played. I'd say Gibson has worse QC than MIK Peavey from early 2000s, which was pretty bad. #neveragain

I would buy an Edwards, ESP, or LTD LP before I'd ever even consider a Gibson product.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

To be fair, I own 2 Kiesels and 3 Gibsons, of which I love. They are in fact not all that different from the Korean guitars I own.

Hell, the Korean Schecters I own have the nicest fretwork out of any of my guitars. That says more about the Korean guitars than it does the USA made guitars though, as my Kiesels and Gibsons are quite nice. (Not to mention Gibson's full maple caps and delicious vanilla clear coat smell that still holds two or three years later.)


----------



## A-Branger

Jeffbro said:


> Not the point I'm making. Yeah you can bag on Gibson, but can you generalize and say all Gibsons are bad quality? Can you say they are generally worse than Epiphone? Same With Kiesel, a few lemons does not make Kiesels bad quality and worse than Korean guitars, which is what a lot of people are claiming.



yeah because the chain of commands no? Custom(well know) Luthier>USA>Japan>Korea>Indonesia>China 

when ppl are gonna learn that the place of manufacture doesnt mean anything in most of today's market.

Just because it was "build in the USA" doesnt give an automatic powers that makes it mroe special and better. Korea has the same machines and skilled ppl. They can do a great guitar too if they are pay well enough for a good QC and order good hardware and woods to use. They can build anything from the cheapest cheap thing, to the fanciest guitar you want. Thing is most companies only use them for the "cheap" stuff while making the top of their range at their home place. But if you want you can order them to build you a high top end quality guitar too

a PRS SE can be better than some Kiesel?, not sure as Ive never touched a Kiesel, but from the PRS's I have (and other brands from same factory), I could believe it. 

Or do we need to raise the price of Korea (or any other country) guitars till the point they are more expensive than Kiesel. Then you believe some could be better?... oooh no, because "Its *insert asian country*, they should be cheapper than that.." mentality 


and yes, maybe not all Gibsons are lemons. Maybe they seem like only because the large huge amount of numbers they produce. Like on an Anderton's youtube clip were the Cap mentions that thing saying something around like "yeh we get some for repair/faulty ect, but if you compare that number to the number we sell is a tinny bit % of it" (or something like that). Which fair enough, but still doesnt excuse them to have that many lemons, specially being a "made in the USA shop" like ppl love to brag about.

And honestly after reading so many stories about them, I dont wanna risk buying a Gibson.... I never like they finish options either way


----------



## USMarine75

FWIW I talked to a high end custom furniture maker and he said the best up-and-coming furniture wood-workers (e.g. cribs) are in Vietnam now. A+ craftsmanship coming out of there and stocking some of the major US furniture resalers. So there's definitely not the MIA or MIJ dominance anymore. Just look at Poland, France, and even top-end Korean guitars.

With that said, there are still some amazing USA manufacturers like Suhr, Fender, and the Schecter Custom Shop.


----------



## kherman

Ok, in the Carvin CT vs PRS Custom thread it was established the PRS was the "bar".
So, then it was basically asked where does a Carvin fall in comparison?
SE, S2, Core, Ten top.
A lot of people said SE.

So, the same question. PRS the bar.
Where does a Gibson usa "production" guitar fall?
SE, S2, Core, Ten Top.

You can't say depends on the guitar. Because we didn't for the Carvin.

Again, in general where do most feel a Gibson usa fall compared to the PRS lines?


I also own both Carvin and Gibson.
So, I'm curious.


----------



## stevexc

*mod edit: Last time I'm doing this then I'm banning the hell out of people. If your post is directed at attacking someone or just being an ass you're getting banned.*


----------



## noise in my mind

I like carvin. I love my current dc7x. It plays really fast and sounds huge with tons of sustain. It's just sad to me that Jeff is letting is customer service slip so hard.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Whew dodged a bullet this time. So how many bans can you eat before you get perma'd


----------



## spork141

I know this thread got a bit off topic but my 2 cents on the country of origin debate is to agree with the stance that it doesn't really matter. Our opinions are all based on the one instance of the 20,000 copies that were made of each guitar. QC isn't perfect, and depending on many factors, might lag from time to time.

I have guitars from china, japan, USA, KOREA and Indonesia. This includes Japan made ESPs, American and Korean PRS, and Indonesian made Ibanezes.

The guitar that I own that seems (by my opinion) the be the best build is my korean made Page Hamilton LTD Sig. I am still blown away by how nice this guitar looks / feels / plays etc. I paid a fraction for it compared to some of my American made guitars.

Never tried Kiesel but want to. But this thread has given me doubts. Well see


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Jeffbro said:


> Not the point I'm making. Yeah you can bag on Gibson, *but can you generalize and say all Gibsons are bad quality? Can you say they are generally worse than Epiphone?* Same With Kiesel, a few lemons does not make Kiesels bad quality and worse than Korean guitars, which is what a lot of people are claiming.



People do that all the time around here, actually. "Gibson is sh!t" and "Epiphone makes better LPs than Gibson" are both fairly common sentiments on SSO. They also say MIK LTD Eclipses are better. People here don't just pick on Kiesel.

For what it's worth: I don't think Epiphones are better than Gibsons, and I agree that it's silly to say all Kiesels are sh!t (though I don't think that's what many here are saying). I think the main backlash against Kiesel here is due to their customer service, which is kinda what happens when you deal directly with a company and they're dumb about it. If you order a Fender and the sales interaction goes south, the problem is generally the dealer. Kiesel _is_ the dealer, though, so they should probably try a little harder to be a good dealer in addition to making good guitars.


----------



## A-Branger

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Kiesel _is_ the dealer,



yup that pretty much it.

With all the other mayor brands, every one still complains, but usually at a dealer or store. You wont hear anyone doing a rant against Ibanez itself, you would hear people saying this Ibanez model is crap (usually at the Iron label stuff all the time in here), but thats it, we have no idea how ibanez treats customers as we dont deal with them. So if someone has a problem wiht the purchase they jsut rant about the store they order it from. And we had stories here of people talking crap about some stores or sales guys same as Kiesel.

Also the other major trouble is that Kiesel being a custom shop, meaning each guitar is build to customer choice of specs, then it opens the door for more personal attachment and cherry picking. With lets say an Ibanez is like "meh thats the way they come, deal with it", with a Kiesel would be like "thats not what I ask them for!" kinda deal

every brand has their problems.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

There will always be a group of folks to take things to the hyperbolic and crazy side. 

I don't think Kiesel guitars are objectively bad. If you bother to read through the comments in here, only a couple of folks are going that route. 

What is bad, is the customer service. No one can defend that. There's no "other side". Kiesel, as a company, has completely dropped that ball and has doubled down to the point where it doesn't seem like they even care to pick it up. 

What is most jarring to folks like myself, who have purchased, played and worked on Carvin guitars for many years, is that the customer service used to be one of the best parts of the brand. 

Of the six new Carvins, and three used, I've owned over the years (first one purchased in 2001) not a single one was objectively flawless on delivery. But the little issues didn't really matter. So what if there is a finish flaw or a little scratch or the setup was terrible or the electronics needed a little sorting, they were a great deal at the time and they stood by the product and would ALWAYS make it right. The customer service made up for small imperfections.


----------



## GuitarBizarre

*MOD EDIT: That's another who can't just let things be. Next one is one month.*


----------



## fps

In reply to the folks who replied to me, I'm just seeing a lot of people who have no real knowledge or experience of Carvin/ Kiesel getting all adrenalised by having a good old moan and jumping on a bandwagon they have no knowledge of.

Of course it sucks for the 4 or 5 people who are disappointed with the customer service and builds. Unhappy customers happen with every brand. But that's honestly not what this is about for quite a few posters on here, reading their posts, and it's a bit sad.

If you really care, write to Kiesel on behalf of these folks, and help them. But do it respectfully and from a place of trying to find a solution, not just enjoying the feeling of complaining about a problem. 

As for the comment on not continually working to evolve and be the brand of choice, I'd argue they've been doing a lot of that with all the new models and this may have brought its own pressures. Still, lynch away, people of anger who are on the internet.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

A-Branger said:


> yeah because the chain of commands no? Custom(well know) Luthier>*USA>Japan*>Korea>Indonesia>China



Well that's just not true.


----------



## Soya

I believe the smileys indicated sarcasm.


----------



## TheTrooper

We can all agree the thread has gone beyond the orginal purpose/topic, (Yes some more than others had fun with it) but what I think it's the worst thing (as someone already pointed out) it's not the issue with the guitars per se (of course nobody wants a guitar with issues) but the way the Customer Service has responded to actual Customers/Complaint/Returns.

If the guitars has issues from the factory, You take it back. Period. No need to argue there, it's their fault.

I don't think the thread has the intention of bringing down the company, but let everybody see what the company is doing to bring itself down. 

Yes, they're kinda pushing too much with models and stuff, letting slip some guitars that should run the QC twice, but the thread it's not going to brind them down; at the best, they will see what is making customers angry and correct themselves.

They didn't rob anybody, it's not like what others did/are doing *cough* Sabre guitars *cough*


----------



## feraledge

They didn't rob anyone, BUT they did say they got robbed and then resold the stolen guitars at a higher price. Not the same, but worth remembering.


----------



## A-Branger

Soya said:


> I believe the smileys indicated sarcasm.



yup ^^

just making fun at the way a lot of ppl in this forum think about quality of the guitar = country is being made


----------



## oversteve

feraledge said:


> They didn't rob anyone, BUT they did say they got robbed and then resold the stolen guitars at a higher price. Not the same, but worth remembering.



Didn't they say they managed to return some instruments while they were en route to forwarder? Getting paid and then getting a chargeback on it is not your regular robbery with bells and whistles but it's still a robbery


----------



## Zado

feraledge said:


> They didn't rob anyone, BUT they did say they got robbed and then resold the stolen guitars at a higher price. Not the same, but worth remembering.



Oh? had no idea the stolen ones where found...


----------



## blacai

feraledge said:


> They didn't rob anyone, BUT they did say they got robbed and then resold the stolen guitars at a higher price. Not the same, but worth remembering.



funny...  they should have been offered as b-stock at least


----------



## TheTrooper

feraledge said:


> They didn't rob anyone, BUT they did say they got robbed and then resold the stolen guitars at a higher price. Not the same, but worth remembering.



Yeah, I remember that; the term "robbed" wasn't exactly correct, they pushed the thing a little maybe 
Didn't know they sold them at a higher price, how did they manage that?


----------



## feraledge

TheTrooper said:


> Yeah, I remember that; the term "robbed" wasn't exactly correct, they pushed the thing a little maybe
> Didn't know they sold them at a higher price, how did they manage that?



I think the SSO thread title went from "guitars stolen" to "victim of mail fraud" and if anyone wants to relive it (I don't), here's the thread: 
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showthread.php?t=310994&

They included this on the listings, made a MASSIVE stink of the whole ordeal and I remember them increasing the prices.


> One of the 16 guitars that were involved in the international fraud attempt.


Nearly a year later, I still can't figure out why every little thing becomes a sales pitch, but I'm not a living hype machine.


----------



## TheTrooper

feraledge said:


> Nearly a year later, I still can't figure out why every little thing becomes a sales pitch, but I'm not a living hype machine.



Business is Business, anywhere/anytime.

Can't really say I wouldn't have done the same thing.
Well, not the same thing, You know, actually making it work 

The problem wasn't the sales pitch, The problem was that they didn't thought it all the way through and they kinda got discovered.

If You gotta go with shady practices at least do it right


----------



## AdenM

I hope Carvin/Keisel gets their stuff together. Wasn't going to chime in to this discussion as I don't own either but have seen a couple artists switching. I know AJ Rebollo from Issues was a big proponent of the Keisel Aries (had a few cool ones too) but just saw that he switched to PRS SEs. Interesting if A&R is not up to snuff either:

https://www.instagram.com/ajbends/


----------



## atticus1088

Just saw today's Facebook video... 

Anyone think it's comical that Jeff called out Kalium Strings on a Kiesel's Facebook page video for screwing up Kiesel's custom multi-scale bass string order, while also mentioning that he hadn't heard from a resolution from Kalium yet. After only one day. 

Isn't this the exact behavior that Manny was calling customers out on? Essentially, Kiesel customers posting issues about orders on social media/forums before Kiesel had time to correct any issues. 



Being a Carvin owner, this behavior is .


----------



## KnightBrolaire

AdenM said:


> I hope Carvin/Keisel gets their stuff together. Wasn't going to chime in to this discussion as I don't own either but have seen a couple artists switching. I know AJ Rebollo from Issues was a big proponent of the Keisel Aries (had a few cool ones too) but just saw that he switched to PRS SEs. Interesting if A&R is not up to snuff either:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/ajbends/



his latest pic has him playing an aries though.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

KnightBrolaire said:


> his latest pic has him playing an aries though.



The caption for the pic says it's from Warped Tour 2016. It's what kids are calling a "Flashback Friday".


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MaxOfMetal said:


> The caption for the pic says it's from Warped Tour 2016. It's what kids are calling a "Flashback Friday".



ah fair enough, i just glanced at the most recent pic, I didn't look at the hashtags.


----------



## Jonathan20022

People should really put less weight into endorsees and what they play. If they're high profile enough, they're getting a very enticing deal to perform with X brand's instruments. If they get a better offer that pays them more, well. You know any sensible touring musician wouldn't turn down more money/instruments. 

I haven't been on their social media in ages, but Jeff is still acting like a high school kid spreading "insider gossip". I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate another brand calling him out for his misgivings to a large audience and then archive it for anyone to see/hear. But he of course does it himself. The guy wants to be a celebrity, but all it's doing is hurting him by starting all this drama between his peers in the industry.

Another luthier I'm good buddies with and I were talking about what happened with my ....ed up Kiesel order. And even though it was a private conversation between just me and him, he just said that is really unfortunate and sad that it came to it. Instead of just blowing up brand vs brand bull...., dude understands the concept of keeping your head low and just working instead of trying to manage appearances online and act controversially.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Jonathan20022 said:


> People should really put less weight into endorsees and what they play. If they're high profile enough, they're getting a very enticing deal to perform with X brand's instruments. If they get a better offer that pays them more, well. You know any sensible touring musician wouldn't turn down more money/instruments.





So many people don't understand that nowadays musicians rely so much on endorsements to help keep their bands afloat. Especially when it comes to quick endorsements like pickups. Design a pickup, rave about it being the most dynamic clear full sounding pickup so everyone buys it, then change to a new brand 24 months later with the new perfect pickup and never talk about your old sig set again. Its laughable just how quick sig gear comes and goes but at least people are starting to catch on that business takes priority over the artist actually wanting to use said gear.

The amount of famous guys I've talked to who don't use their sig/endorsement gear in the studio and just write a bunch of brand names into the album credits to fulfil endorsements.


----------



## marcwormjim

Edited: Not worth it to ask.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Lorcan makes a great point, your gear is the best you've ever played until it's not! 

When it's a practical reason like Greg Koch's Fluence set, where he wanted to completely eliminate 60 cycle hum from his tone. That's one thing, but when a player jumps from Seymour Duncan to Dimarzio, it doesn't suddenly make the Seymour Duncan set the player played worse or bad in any way.


----------



## couverdure

AdenM said:


> I hope Carvin/Keisel gets their stuff together. Wasn't going to chime in to this discussion as I don't own either but have seen a couple artists switching. I know AJ Rebollo from Issues was a big proponent of the Keisel Aries (had a few cool ones too) but just saw that he switched to PRS SEs. Interesting if A&R is not up to snuff either:
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/ajbends/



I remember when AJ was with Legator a few years ago.



Lorcan Ward said:


> So many people don't understand that nowadays musicians rely so much on endorsements to help keep their bands afloat. Especially when it comes to quick endorsements like pickups. Design a pickup, rave about it being the most dynamic clear full sounding pickup so everyone buys it, then change to a new brand 24 months later with the new perfect pickup and never talk about your old sig set again. Its laughable just how quick sig gear comes and goes but at least people are starting to catch on that business takes priority over the artist actually wanting to use said gear.
> 
> The amount of famous guys I've talked to who don't use their sig/endorsement gear in the studio and just write a bunch of brand names into the album credits to fulfil endorsements.



I feel the same way about seeing those kind of endorsements. They'd rather just get the cheapest and/or best offer they can find instead of using a company's products for a number of time before approaching them to sign a endorsement deal.


----------



## narad

When you see the word "endorsement" you need to start thinking "sponsored by" except in the rare cases where the actions speak louder than words. Like no one's going to convince me that Petrucci or Jason Richardson play EBMM for the money, etc. and I'm sure everyone could come up with hundreds of good examples of this. In the larger picture, it seems more the exception than the rule with the SSO fav artists who aren't major enough to be effortlessly buying homes and nice cars.

But ya, no one sees this pic:







and thinks, "Man! That crew LOVES soda!" -- I think we need to bring the same kind of mindset to the gear community because we're getting completely over-run with this type of marketing lately.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> When you see the word "endorsement" you need to start thinking "sponsored by" except in the rare cases where the actions speak louder than words. Like no one's going to convince me that Petrucci or Jason Richardson play EBMM for the money, etc. and I'm sure everyone could come up with hundreds of good examples of this. In the larger picture, it seems more the exception than the rule with the SSO fav artists who aren't major enough to be effortlessly buying homes and nice cars.
> 
> But ya, no one sees this pic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and thinks, "Man! That crew LOVES soda!" -- I think we need to bring the same kind of mindset to the gear community because we're getting completely over-run with this type of marketing lately.



Agree completely... it amazes me on here seeing guys that simply do not get that an artist promoting sig gear is trying to sell something. Obviously they're going to tell you it's good, they want to make money lmfao 

Not saying all endorsers are lying and don't like what they're using, but at least think and be smart enough to know the person is trying to sell a product.


----------



## JSanta

technomancer said:


> Agree completely... it amazes me on here seeing guys that simply do not get that an artist promoting sig gear is trying to sell something. Obviously they're going to tell you it's good, they want to make money lmfao
> 
> Not saying all endorsers are lying and don't like what they're using, but at least think and be smart enough to know the person is trying to sell a product.



I agree as well. I also think it's tough for even someone in their 30s or older like me to not link brands and artists together. I really like my Carvin guitars, and I didn't buy them because anyone in particular played them, but I have done that with EBMM (The JP is a sick guitar, so who cares either way). But you have to wonder now, how much is it about liking the gear and a company versus who gives a better deal at the moment for me to shill for.

That being said, seeing so many musicians that are around my age constantly jumping manufacturers and touting that this new product is the best when the week before they said the same about another company has put all of this endorsement nonsense into perspective. I'm sure that there are musicians endorsing gear because they genuinely love it (Petrucci seems like a good example, Vai perhaps another with Ibanez), but I would make an educated guess and state many endorsement deals today are much like Narad's race car comparison.


----------



## jl-austin

What I find humorous is there are several artist that have switched from Ibanez, and have tried to make their new siggy as close to an Ibanez as the new company can comply. Then they go around saying how great the new company is.... Dude, its a copied Ibanez. This has happened several times. Then people on the forums say how great these companies are and that these artist are just there for their guitars..... If that where true, they would still be with Ibanez, because their new guitars are just copied Ibanez.


----------



## narad

That said, it's a bit of Ibanez's fault for having designed the best guitar ever (RGA) and then releasing it only in a few lame configurations...


----------



## soliloquy

in regards to artists picking brands, i think part of it also has to do with publicity. 
case in point, Zaza. 
decent player. has a bit of a following. had a sig with cort. unless you know of the brand, you wont know much beyond that.

he moved over to carvin, and people who are into the carvin brand discovered who zaza is.

likewise, i would never have discovered andy timmons, if it wasn't for me looking at pickups on the dimarzio website and his name popped up. if he was with, say, GFS pickups, i most likely wont have discovered him.


----------



## bostjan

^ Absolutely, endorsements work both ways. Especially as a teenager, I would be like:

Wow! Check out that guitarist in this band! ... Whoah, what kind of guitar is that?!
*learns new guitar brand, goes to guitar store and picks up guitar brand's catalogue, flips through, looking at other artists*
Whoah, check out this guitar! ... It's a signature guitar, ..., for so-n-so! Who is so-n-so?
*checks out so-n-so's band, learns new band*


----------



## xzacx

There's a popular quote that pro athletes often use when switching endorsements or teams. "I had to do what was best for me and my family." I don't know who coined it, but it's a genius quote from a PR standpoint in that it's honest. I'm not mad at anyone for going in the direction of the biggest check. There's a finite period of time where they can earn that kind of money (with athletes much much more so than guitarists, based on the physical aspects, but it still applies - just because a band is hot at the moment doesn't mean it will be 5 years down the road). You just have to keep in mind that these are paid spokespeople with vested interests in the products success. That's totally fine, I'm just not basing my opinions on what they're saying. 

Another related thing is I've read people question why if "X" boutique builder is so great, are no "pros" playing them? The simple answer being, "because they can't afford to pay people to play them." They may be objectively better in every way than a big brand's gear, but when people reach the point where they can be paid to play something, a lot of them will.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> That said, it's a bit of Ibanez's fault for having designed the best guitar ever (RGA) and then releasing it only in a few lame configurations...



Prestige rgat petition lets do it


In other news the cracked ebony fretboard thread in the kiesel group is amazing. 
Rabid fans are rabid


----------



## laxu

diagrammatiks said:


> In other news the cracked ebony fretboard thread in the kiesel group is amazing.
> Rabid fans are rabid



It's literally just one guy and yeah, he is bat.... bonkers.


----------



## Casper777

xzacx said:


> There's a popular quote that pro athletes often use when switching endorsements or teams. "I had to do what was best for me and my family." I don't know who coined it, but it's a genius quote from a PR standpoint in that it's honest. I'm not mad at anyone for going in the direction of the biggest check. There's a finite period of time where they can earn that kind of money (with athletes much much more so than guitarists, based on the physical aspects, but it still applies - just because a band is hot at the moment doesn't mean it will be 5 years down the road). You just have to keep in mind that these are paid spokespeople with vested interests in the products success. That's totally fine, I'm just not basing my opinions on what they're saying.
> 
> Another related thing is I've read people question why if "X" boutique builder is so great, are no "pros" playing them? The simple answer being, "because they can't afford to pay people to play them." They may be objectively better in every way than a big brand's gear, but when people reach the point where they can be paid to play something, a lot of them will.



That's very true... best exemple is Guthrie Govan switching from Suhr to Charvel... I can't really think that he had something to say about his Suhr guitar quality (obviously top notch), but Charvel could certainly pay more. No offense... At this point of excellence these guitarist are also much less picky about their guitars sometimes, as they only see them as tools to make their music. Much more that we do mere futile fanboys


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Nvm... Apparently when i opened the thread it took me to the wrong page and I'm commenting on irrelevance. lol


----------



## davedeath

Casper777 said:


> That's very true... best exemple is Guthrie Govan switching from Suhr to Charvel... I can't really think that he had something to say about his Suhr guitar quality (obviously top notch), but Charvel could certainly pay more. No offense... At this point of excellence these guitarist are also much less picky about their guitars sometimes, as they only see them as tools to make their music. Much more that we do mere futile fanboys



I think that stuff has more to do with touring. I'm sure Suhr does well but nothing like Charvel who can help him if something is broken or needed asap. I've heard that about the bigger names.


about that cracked board, don't you know its because where you live and nothing else...


----------



## Glades




----------



## hairychris

davedeath said:


> I think that stuff has more to do with touring. I'm sure Suhr does well but nothing like Charvel who can help him if something is broken or needed asap. I've heard that about the bigger names.



OT for the original, but yes, absolutely true. A larger manufacturer will have distributors and reps worldwide, and their kit will be more easily obtainable (be stocked by local retailers) so it makes tour support much more straight forward. In Guthrie's case I'd also think that the quality difference between Suhr and high-end Charvel guitars would also not be massive.

Billy Duffy (guitarist for The Cult), for example, uses mainly Boss pedals for that reason. His point is that a boutique pedal may sound a certain fraction better, but if it gets broken when you're on tour you're screwed.

Anyway, tangent done!


----------



## SDMFVan

hairychris said:


> OT for the original, but yes, absolutely true. A larger manufacturer will have distributors and reps worldwide, and their kit will be more easily obtainable (be stocked by local retailers) so it makes tour support much more straight forward. In Guthrie's case I'd also think that the quality difference between Suhr and high-end Charvel guitars would also not be massive.
> 
> Billy Duffy (guitarist for The Cult), for example, uses mainly Boss pedals for that reason. His point is that a boutique pedal may sound a certain fraction better, but if it gets broken when you're on tour you're screwed.
> 
> Anyway, tangent done!



This was also a big reason Alex Skolnick switched from Heritage guitars to ESP. He said that he loved his Heritage guitars but they're such a small company they really couldn't meet his needs, particularly when he's on tour.


----------



## hairychris

SDMFVan said:


> This was also a big reason Alex Skolnick switched from Heritage guitars to ESP. He said that he loved his Heritage guitars but they're such a small company they really couldn't meet his needs, particularly when he's on tour.



Aye. It's why I tend to take endorsements, and people switching them, with a grain of salt (and I don't think that I've bought any gear because of a player endorsing it - the nearest is buying a LP Custom silverburst because of Adam Jones but that's a whole other subject!).

I can't see Kiesel as a good choice for a non-US based touring artist, or a US based artist that spends a lot of time outside the country. They don't have the support network. Ditto with Heritage per Alex Skolnik as you said.

Money may be a thing, but to be honest I think that endorsees only start getting decent amounts of cash at the upper end of the fame & sales spectrum. Most endorsees get discounted or occasionally free stuff plus some extra support, maybe access to a custom shop eg LACS. Even your 'free strings for life' folks tend to be relatively big names...


----------



## diagrammatiks

Sometimes it could also be a case of the company building you something that you want at a discount or without a series upcharge. 

The holcomb at least is pretty unique in the prs offerings...

although the kiesel cl...yikes.


----------



## Hollowway

Looks like they're doing a Holdsworth 7. I'm having a tough time deciding if this is just an opportunistic move by Jeff to capitalize on Holdsworth's passing, or a way to pay him tribute. But when I heard he passed away, I started to wonder whether Jeff was gonna do a video and some sort of sale.


----------



## dmlinger

Hollowway said:


> But when I heard he passed away, I started to wonder whether Jeff was gonna do a video and some sort of sale.



Same. I started to wonder how Jeff could make Allan's passing about himself. Hate that I thought that, but couldn't help it.


----------



## dmlinger

Came back only to say that I watched the HH7 announcement on the Kiesel FB page and it does come across as genuine. Condolences to Jeff for the loss of his friend. Eating my words, but am glad to do so.


----------



## narad

Yea, I love to rag on Jeff and all these build issues and that sort of stuff but those guys had a long relationship with Allan so yea, my sympathies and hopefully he can hook up the Holdsworth sigs to the gofundme and continuing contributions to his family.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Edit: removing my comment. Kiesel rep is being a raging hemorrhoid towards me.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Hollowway said:


> Looks like they're doing a Holdsworth 7. I'm having a tough time deciding if this is just an opportunistic move by Jeff to capitalize on Holdsworth's passing, or a way to pay him tribute. But when I heard he passed away, I started to wonder whether Jeff was gonna do a video and some sort of sale.



I dont think that is it at all.. considering it was a 1+ hour video, and the mention was very brief of the HH7 in the middle. I had to jump around a lot just to find it. Not to mention, the body was already completed, I doubt they would decide and cut a whole new body within 3 days just to "capitalize" on his death.. I think Jeff even mentioned that Allan was excited for the HH7, and I believe him.

It's kinda slimy that people hate jeff THAT much that you instantly think to turn this into "Oh Jeff is only doing this for money, and the death of one of his best friends was the perfect opportunity for an announcement".. Great people we have on this forum.


----------



## Hollowway

SnowfaLL said:


> It's kinda slimy that people hate jeff THAT much that you instantly think to turn this into "Oh Jeff is only doing this for money, and the death of one of his best friends was the perfect opportunity for an announcement".. Great people we have on this forum.



Easy there, Tiger. If anyone is thinking Jeff may capitalize on something like this for money, it's because he has given reason to do so. It's not like the people on this forum are on a general luthier witch hunt. If anything, people on this forum sing unjustified praises, not condemnations. In Jeff's case, we are, after all, talking about the guy who tried to parlay a "robbery" into increased sales. In fact, no one said, "Oh Jeff is only doing this for the money." What we said (or, more precisely I said) is that I was having a tough time deciding what his motives were. You're the only one rushing to immediate judgement.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Hollowway said:


> Easy there, Tiger. If anyone is thinking Jeff may capitalize on something like this for money, it's because he has given reason to do so. It's not like the people on this forum are on a general luthier witch hunt. If anything, people on this forum sing unjustified praises, not condemnations. In Jeff's case, we are, after all, talking about the guy who tried to parlay a "robbery" into increased sales. In fact, no one said, "Oh Jeff is only doing this for the money." What we said (or, more precisely I said) is that I was having a tough time deciding what his motives were. You're the only one rushing to immediate judgement.



Haha if you really believe that what you said about using Holdsworth death as a sales tactic, then I feel sorry for you. But I'm not surprised. We just lost one of the greatest guitarists to have ever lived, and thats the thought process you go to?


----------



## marcwormjim

You're using his death to pick fights from a high horse, man. 

I read Hollowway's post as trying to say that it sucks that those of us acquainted with the guy's villainous and exploitative reputation are given pause when we tune in expecting his usual BS, only to see him grieving the loss of his friend. 

It was too painful for me to watch more than a few minutes of the video - But, had he thrown in a curveball about how 5% of sales from a limited-edition, $5,000 K-Series Solo model in Kiesel Antique Merkin-Burst would be donated to the Allan Holdsworth Memorial Foundation to Buy Jeff a New Race Car in 2018 Like Allan Would Have Wanted, it wouldn't exactly have surprised anyone.

As it is, though, the video is just a heartbreaking look at a guy who misses his friend.


----------



## Gio18

narad said:


> That said, it's a bit of Ibanez's fault for having designed the best guitar ever (RGA) and then releasing it only in a few lame configurations...



I don't know about that.


----------



## Overtone

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Edit: removing my comment. Kiesel rep is being a raging hemorrhoid towards me.



You might wanna get that checked out...


----------



## Hollowway

marcwormjim said:


> You're using his death to pick fights from a high horse, man.
> 
> I read Hollowway's post as trying to say that it sucks that those of us acquainted with the guy's villainous and exploitative reputation are given pause when we tune in expecting his usual BS, only to see him grieving the loss of his friend.
> 
> It was too painful for me to watch more than a few minutes of the video - But, had he thrown in a curveball about how 5% of sales from a limited-edition, $5,000 K-Series Solo model in Kiesel Antique Merkin-Burst would be donated to the Allan Holdsworth Memorial Foundation to Buy Jeff a New Race Car in 2018 Like Allan Would Have Wanted, it wouldn't exactly have surprised anyone.
> 
> As it is, though, the video is just a heartbreaking look at a guy who misses his friend.



Yeah, this is what I was saying. Worded way better than my post.


----------



## narad

*mod edit: keep it on topic folks*


----------



## GuitarBizarre

Casper777 said:


> That's very true... best exemple is Guthrie Govan switching from Suhr to Charvel... I can't really think that he had something to say about his Suhr guitar quality (obviously top notch), but Charvel could certainly pay more. No offense... At this point of excellence these guitarist are also much less picky about their guitars sometimes, as they only see them as tools to make their music. Much more that we do mere futile fanboys



Guthrie addressed this in an interview he did for Andertons Music - He said that Suhr were fantastic, but he felt like his signature model was a case of him bolting mods onto a guitar that was otherwise just another Suhr. 

In comparison he said that Charvel were far more accommodating when it came to making any unique or strange changes he could think of, from the classic floyd rose, to the pickup mounting tabs etc.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Kiesel announced a new custom finish today. Only a $250 upcharge.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Dissolved Skittleburst?


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Melted Popsicle Burst?


----------



## technomancer

and that is coming from somebody that loves bright obnoxious colors on guitars...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the hell? it looks like a jawbreaker.


----------



## jl-austin

It would be cool looking if the yellow was just a clear coat, and the green was a shade of red, and the blue was a shade of dark brown...... Oh wait..


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

KnightBrolaire said:


> the hell? it looks like a jawbreaker.


KnightBrolaire got it! Jawbreakerburst!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

it would almost be acceptable if they actually just went crazy and did a ton of bursts like a jawbreaker. kinda like these prisma guitars or the suhr drip guitars:


----------



## Semi-pro

Ikea-burst 

But yeah, doing sth like the SG Zoot Suit could look cool. And also hide the bevels in case someone doesn't like them:


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Semi-pro said:


> Ikea-burst


And there you have it!  Pretty fitting since Kiesel is becoming the IKEA of guitars.


----------



## GuitarBizarre

Emperor Guillotine said:


> And there you have it!  Pretty fitting since Kiesel is becoming the IKEA of guitars.


Nah. People *like* IKEA.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

they can't all look like this:


----------



## dave6

Man, that really sucks. I've had horrible customer service experience through them as well. I've gone through two V8's (bought the version with the hipshot after it was released and sold my first one). The guitars were solid builds, fortunately, but getting them was a nightmare. For the first one, id never built a custom guitar so I had a handful of questions about materials before I made my final decisions. So, I called in and started the customization process with Mike Jones and as soon as I started asking his opinion on certain materials vs other materials, he just turned into a huge asshole and refused to give me any info. Basically he just told me that it's all on me to figure it out, which I completely agree with - but the way he approached it was incredibly rude and I couldn't believe he didn't at least try to extend somewhat of a helping hand. That whole ordering experience was incredibly awkward. Then when I went back for my second V8, I got a different sales rep (thank god). This guys name was Keith, he seemed so much cooler and more willing to help where I needed advice/opinions. We got to the payment process and he discovered I hadn't activated my kiesel card, so he told me to hang up to activate the card and call him back after I finished. So after I tried calling back, I got Mike on the phone who offered to relay the message that my card was good to submit payment to Keith. I never got a response from Keith after sending him an email asking if he was able to submit my payment, so then I emailed Mike asking if he managed to relay the info who later responded saying it's not his responsibility to get in between my rep and myself. Even after he, himself, offered to do it on the phone. So I decided to try to call Keith myself and eventually got ahold of him and was able to verify that he charged the card. Even he seemed very frustrated and was rude to me - all I wanted was to verify that my order was placed. And it took almost two entire days to do that.

The only real reason I went through kiesel the second time was because they're the only guys that make a headless 8 string with a trem system that I know of. Now that I've got one, I'm not returning for another kiesel of any sort. Your story helped me to solidify that decision. I'm sorry you went through that man! It's nice to see someone else speak up about their experience - was starting to think I was the only one who had a horrible experience trough them haha.


----------



## spudmunkey

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Kiesel announced a new custom finish today. Only a $250 upcharge.


 
Say what you will (and no it wasn't $250, I'm sure...it's just Grabber Blue burst on McLaren Yellow)...but it actually sold.
http://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/135512

That sold quite quick, too.


----------



## Veldar

I really want a 5 string headless bass, especially after Amos has been posting his all over Instagram, but wow I will never order one in my life because of shifty customer service. I live in Australia so sending it back would be a nightmare if it had to happen, but I doubt they would even let me ship it back to them &#128529;&#128299;

And It's not a custom shop, you have options bit only within their parameters, real luthires will talk to you to help if you don't know 100% what specs you want. For example Chris from Overwater or David Searle.

But if anyone know where I can get a headless bass...


----------



## ElRay

Emperor Guillotine said:


>



Sminion (Smurf on the outside, Minion on the inside)?


----------



## Jeffbro

People just desperately grasping for anything they can hate on now...

It's a weird color scheme, big deal, obviously there's a demand for it or they wouldn't release it.


----------



## narad

Jeffbro said:


> People just desperately grasping for anything they can hate on now...
> 
> It's a weird color scheme, big deal, obviously there's a demand for it or they wouldn't release it.



I know what people _aren't_ going to be grasping desperately for: that guitar


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

narad said:


> I know what people _aren't_ going to be grasping desperately for: that guitar



This would be hilarious if someone didn't already buy it.


----------



## narad

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This would be hilarious if someone didn't already buy it.



Someone already bought TruckNutz, too.


----------



## marcwormjim

A little more on-topic: 

daven6, let us know if you end up "banned" from "EVER doing business with Kiesel EVER AGAIN!" for sharing your negative experience. The brand has been more vigilant about blacklisting customers who complain about bad service ever since they were banned from this site for abusing their sponsor status to demand mods delete negative posts and threads.


----------



## Science_Penguin

I mean, you gotta imagine, with the number of fans who've suck with Kiesel through all of Jeff's weirdness (customer service aside) it's only natural someone bought the Tropical Skittles tribute up there.

I'd be more shocked if Gibson tried that and someone bought it... And even then, I know there's people out there who bought the Firebird X. If it's out there, someone will like it.


----------



## marcwormjim

Science_Penguin said:


> with the number of fans who've *suck* with Kiesel through all of Jeff's weirdness (customer service aside)



Freudian slip?


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Jeffbro said:


> People just desperately grasping for anything they can hate on now...
> 
> It's a weird color scheme, big deal, obviously there's a demand for it or they wouldn't release it.



You act like there's not a thread dedicated to making fun of ugly guitars. I personally love the vader, and I can totally appreciate the ....aweful that is that guitar. True, there is clearly a market for it, but that doesn't make it any less gaudy and hilarious to the vast majority of people.

Kiesel is just notorious for making weird clashing finishes. Namely when Jeff himself is involved. Even if he does have some great finishes, you can't argue that he doesn't have... Interesting taste.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

maybe the person who bought is from sweden or something. one of the guys at strandberg's swedish custom shop posted this.


----------



## Ziricote

I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!".


----------



## Jake

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods



I'd be pissed if Jeff fvcked up my guitar and then refused to fix it 

Also has 60 posts and tells the mods to check themselves


----------



## Science_Penguin

marcwormjim said:


> Freudian slip?



Y'know what, I'm just gonna say yes.


----------



## Hollowway

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods



Yeah, it's almost like Jeff should try to make customers happy before they go on the internet and give a negative review. I agree that the mods should only allow positive experiences to be posted, and censor anything people want to say that's negative. Or, at least limit the speech of people, so they can't chime in if they agree with each other. I mean, take a page from North Korea's playbook, for Pete's sake! It's obviously turning them in to an enviable economy.


----------



## marcwormjim

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods



There ARE dedicated/"official" Kiesel/Carvin threads, and you are free to contribute something positive to them - If you can _think of anything_. It's obvious that mods leave this thread open so that other threads don't get cluttered with Kiesel hate. They delete and ban for off-topic posts here, too.

The reason Kiesel doesn't have more of a positive presence on this site is because they were dropped as a sponsor and banned amidst a series of PR disasters and general shadiness that would have killed smaller brands several times-over - That's why you see more posts about the brand here and in the "Some guitars are too funny not to post" thread than in the open threads for the brand on the 6/7/8-string/luthier subforums. If Jeff and co were only willing to go more than one order-cycle without treating an internet-equipped customer like garbage, there would be more NGD threads where it's good vibes all-around; such as you can find posted all over this site prior to 2016.


----------



## Dawn of the Shred

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods


----------



## Demiurge

Ziricote said:


> Check yourself mods



If we find that any of the mods riggity-riggity-wrecked themselves, it should be noted that this warning (quite the non sequitur) tragically went unheeded.


----------



## narad

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods



I'm glad your English is improving so quickly. Keep up the good work!


----------



## feraledge

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel



Worst Freaky Friday scenario ever


----------



## downburst82

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel





feraledge said:


> Worst Freaky Friday scenario ever


----------



## narad

Maybe my favorite comment of 2017


----------



## prlgmnr

Demiurge said:


> If we find that any of the mods riggity-riggity-wrecked themselves, it should be noted that this warning (quite the non sequitur) tragically went unheeded.



Bloody hell I'm actually dying now.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, it's almost like Jeff should try to make customers happy before they go on the internet and give a negative review. I agree that the mods should only allow positive experiences to be posted, and censor anything people want to say that's negative. Or, at least limit the speech of people, so they can't chime in if they agree with each other. I mean, take a page from North Korea's playbook, for Pete's sake! It's obviously turning them in to an enviable economy.


Like button...where?


----------



## Science_Penguin

Ziricote said:


> I would be so pissed if I was Jeff Kiesel and a thread about one guys guitar situation turned into the seemingly "Official Kiesel Guitars Thread" but was really titled "Kiesel---Never Again!". Check yourself mods



"Seemingly"?? but... it's called "Kiesel---Never Again!" what about that seems like the Official Kiesel Guitars Thread? Am I missing something?

And why wouldn't the mods want to keep the (obviously popular enough) negative opinions of Kiesel in a single thread? And... why not start it with one guy's story? Isn't that how most of these things begin? And what better thread than one which conveniently had a vague enough title that could potentially leave room for more people to chime in with their reasons for "never again" supporting Kiesel?


----------



## Mathemagician

How the .... is this thread still going? lmao.


----------



## ElRay

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, it's almost like Jeff should try to make customers happy before they go on the internet and give a negative review. I agree that the mods should only allow positive experiences to be posted, and censor anything people want to say that's negative. Or, at least limit the speech of people, so they can't chime in if they agree with each other. I mean, take a page from North Korea's *TRUMP'S* playbook, for Pete's sake! It's obviously turning them in to an enviable economy *preventing the GDP from dropping*.



FTFY


----------



## fps

What a pathetic bandwagon this thread's become. Too many people who prefer hate to love. How many delighted customers have they had since this thread started, but no, everyone wants to focus on this one issue again and again and again. Terrible.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

fps said:


> What a pathetic bandwagon this thread's become. Too many people who prefer hate to love. How many delighted customers have they had since this thread started, but no, everyone wants to focus on *these many issues again and again and again.* Terrible.


Fixed.

Have fun kissing the company's ass. They aren't giving you any online brownie points.


----------



## narad

fps said:


> What a pathetic bandwagon this thread's become. Too many people who prefer hate to love. How many delighted customers have they had since this thread started, but no, everyone wants to focus on this one issue again and again and again. Terrible.



You can start the "Kiesel---Definitely Again!" thread and we'll see whether the positives outweigh the negatives.


----------



## AboutBlank

narad said:


> You can start the "Kiesel---Definitely Again!" thread and we'll see whether the positives outweigh the negatives.



While I have no horse in the race (apart from beeing a little annoyed from some "guerilla" marketing tactics and likewise) this is the (sad?!) truth:

http://www.marketingcharts.com/onli...ore-likely-to-be-shared-than-good-ones-28628/


----------



## Hollowway

fps said:


> What a pathetic bandwagon this thread's become. Too many people who prefer hate to love. How many delighted customers have they had since this thread started, but no, everyone wants to focus on this one issue again and again and again. Terrible.



Eh, you seem to be fine with them being a B grade company. I happen to like Carvin/Kiesel, and hate to see them moving in this direction, so I am critical of them in hopes that they can get better. 

It's like if your kid gets a D in math, but an A in everything else. You're going to come down pretty hard on them for that D, because you know they can perform better. It's not likely that you're going to say, "Too many people prefer hate to love," and look the other way.  Too me, it seems that the people who are most critical here are the ones who are most likely considering buying a kiesel, and who expect the company to be really good.


----------



## J_Mac

fps said:


> What a pathetic bandwagon this thread's become. Too many people who prefer hate to love. How many delighted customers have they had since this thread started, but no, everyone wants to focus on this one issue again and again and again. Terrible.



Don't hate the haters, love the haters. They hate that 

I nearly ordered a Kiesel a few months ago, but the huge variety of reviews here put me off. Only because I live in the UK and a return for fixes would have been a nightmare. Gotta say I like their style but never played one. Would like to have a blast on one.

BTW where is the official Kiesel thread? Searched and could not find


----------



## spudmunkey

J_Mac said:


> BTW where is the official Kiesel thread? Searched and could not find



It's still called the "Carvin" thread.

I even suggested changing the name over 2 years ago. Ha!

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4348292&postcount=1207


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> It's still called the "Carvin" thread.
> 
> I even suggested changing the name over 2 years ago. Ha!
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4348292&postcount=1207



Never saw your post but added Kiesel to the thread title


----------



## diagrammatiks

An oldie but goody

http://gtroblq.blogspot.tw/2008/02/carvin-ct6m-review.html?m=1


----------



## KnightBrolaire

why the hell would they spec it this way... the solid orange looks terrible against the limba


----------



## Science_Penguin

I'll keep saying it-

Solid color, colored wood, OR natural wood. PICK ONE!


----------



## cip 123

Now thats just nitpicky hate^ I like the look of it, aside from the stupid headstock.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Science_Penguin said:


> I'll keep saying it-
> 
> Solid color, colored wood, OR natural wood. PICK ONE!



agreed. I'd even be fine if it was solid orange on the top and natural on the back, but having the bevel makes it gross. the bevel only works with some builds.


----------



## A-Branger

cip 123 said:


> Now thats just nitpicky hate^ I like the look of it, aside from the stupid headstock.



agree here, thats just complaining for the sake of it. And as far as colors and paint choices, they had done FAR worse than this. This is actually quite acceptable and not bad looking as color theme (paint/wood/hardware choices)

I quite like the theme of it, BUT I would have painted the bevel part of the top (masked binding or whatever), so you only had two colors, the orange top and the body wood, instead of the 3 different layers. And maybe a different choice of woods for the neck, maybe a flame mapple or something light color maple without the purple laminates


----------



## Dredg

Kiesel seems to throw together as many random combinations of paint jobs and wood contrasts/stains as they can think of. I say good on them. Makes for some interesting guitar porn.


----------



## USMarine75

Is it Kiesel randomly spec'ing these, or are the showcase guitars ones that customers reneged on?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

USMarine75 said:


> Is it Kiesel randomly spec'ing these, or are the showcase guitars ones that customers reneged on?



probably a combination of both. I've seen some guitars end up getting sold, returned and put right back in-stock.


----------



## cip 123

Jesus this thread has just devolved...This thread was about their customer service and the quality of instruments they put out, but going to their site to pick guitars and ragging on how they look is just stupid. This shoulda been locked up a while back.


----------



## SnowfaLL

USMarine75 said:


> Is it Kiesel randomly spec'ing these, or are the showcase guitars ones that customers reneged on?



Every guitar built has the showcase pictures.. theres a huge database even that you could search by SN and everything if I recall.


----------



## ElysianGuitars

cip 123 said:


> Now thats just nitpicky hate^ I like the look of it, aside from the stupid headstock.



I agree, think it looks nice. I don't usually dig when they do that type of paint job but this one looks good.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

cip 123 said:


> Jesus this thread has just devolved...This thread was about their customer service and the quality of instruments they put out, but going to their site to pick guitars and ragging on how they look is just stupid. This shoulda been locked up a while back.



So you'd prefer mods locked threads that shared negative opinions? Would it be better if the people with negative things to say about Kiesel didn't have one specific place to gather, and instead just shared those opinions in any other Kiesel thread or NGD popped up? 

Perhaps they could go to the official Kiesel thread, where people share news and pictures of guitars they like, and sh!t on the brand there instead?

Maybe negative opinions just shouldn't be allowed at all on here?

I can totally understand being irked by the negativity in here, especially if someone is a fan of the brand, but I like that the mods continue to let this thread exist. As long as people remain civil and no rules are being broken, I can't think of any reason not to allow this thread to keep going. It might be better for people who are bothered by it to just, you know, not come to this thread.


----------



## MetalThrasher

Grand Moff Tim said:


> So you'd prefer mods locked threads that shared negative opinions? Would it be better if the people with negative things to say about Kiesel didn't have one specific place to gather, and instead just shared those opinions in any other Kiesel thread or NGD popped up?
> 
> Perhaps they could go to the official Kiesel thread, where people share news and pictures of guitars they like, and sh!t on the brand there instead?
> 
> Maybe negative opinions just shouldn't be allowed at all on here?
> 
> I can totally understand being irked by the negativity in here, especially if someone is a fan of the brand, but I like that the mods continue to let this thread exist. As long as people remain civil and no rules are being broken, I can't think of any reason not to allow this thread to keep going. It might be better for people who are bothered by it to just, you know, not come to this thread.



Where's the LIKE button! THIS ^. Having owned and still own a few Carvins. I think this thread should not be locked because its so far been civil. I haven't ordered a Carvin in a few years and I'm not a die hard fan boy but I did like them back in the day! I'm actually a little reluctant to order another one in future because of these dealings that others have had recently. To me I feel that once J took over things started to decline in the CS aspect of things. Don't get me wrong though I give him credit because he has really stepped up the game by adding more options and guitars but they need to get back to the roots!


----------



## USMarine75

SnowfaLL said:


> Every guitar built has the showcase pictures.. theres a huge database even that you could search by SN and everything if I recall.



No, I was just wondering if these guitars members here are crapping on were spec'd by Kiesel itself as showpieces, or if they were guitars that are for sale because customers reneged on the purchase after the build? 

It makes sense that every time someone cancels a build last minute or sends one back due to issues, that it would end up for sale in their online store, no? And if I had spec'd that orange one above, I would have been willing to eat a 20% restock fee to cancel lol.


----------



## cip 123

Grand Moff Tim said:


> So you'd prefer mods locked threads that shared negative opinions? Would it be better if the people with negative things to say about Kiesel didn't have one specific place to gather, and instead just shared those opinions in any other Kiesel thread or NGD popped up?
> 
> Perhaps they could go to the official Kiesel thread, where people share news and pictures of guitars they like, and sh!t on the brand there instead?
> 
> Maybe negative opinions just shouldn't be allowed at all on here?
> 
> I can totally understand being irked by the negativity in here, especially if someone is a fan of the brand, but I like that the mods continue to let this thread exist. As long as people remain civil and no rules are being broken, I can't think of any reason not to allow this thread to keep going. It might be better for people who are bothered by it to just, you know, not come to this thread.



I've lurked in the thread for a while occasionally coming to see what's happening and I usually don't mind it, but something about someone actually going to their site and then posting a picture going "Why do they build guitars like this" was just the kind of petty negativity that made me snap a little.

Sorry if my opinion was misconstrued, it was simply keeping negativity going for negativities sake. Kiesel can build guitars anyway they want (as seen in this thread) but to go out of your way to get a picture of a guitar just to talk negatively about it's appearance was just stupid to me, it felt like just like "Oh we're at this point now" I get the hate bandwagons that this forum is sometimes partial too but like I said that level just made me a little pissed, and I'm not even a kiesel fan.


----------



## narad

cip 123 said:


> Sorry if my opinion was misconstrued, it was simply keeping negativity going for negativities sake. Kiesel can build guitars anyway they want (as seen in this thread) but to go out of your way to get a picture of a guitar just to talk negatively about it's appearance was just stupid to me, it felt like just like "Oh we're at this point now" I get the hate bandwagons that this forum is sometimes partial too but like I said that level just made me a little pissed, and I'm not even a kiesel fan.



If you're not a kiesel fan I don't see why you'd be up in arms. We literally have a thread where we post photos of poorly designed and poorly specced guitars just to make fun of them.


----------



## feraledge

I'm not sure "yeah that sucks" is really a bandwagon. People who are going to or have dealt with Kiesel have a right to know what they're getting into, namely that the Opt 50 stuff is rolling the dice, the 10-day return period can be a hassle and that their customer service sucks. Buyer beware, they turn small mistakes into big ones and big ones into ridiculous PR videos.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

When kiesel gets a customer who knows how to spec stuff (or when jeff isn't being a retard and trying to peddle his cotton candy finish/bukkake burst/vomitburst) then they do nice stuff and make pretty damn good guitars. The problem, which has been stated in this thread, is that they suck at customer service and don't seem to care about rectifying qc problems until they take a lot of flak on that model (see vader trem or the aries bridge stuff earlier in the thread). If kiesel had better customer service I'd gladly give them more of my money, but until they get better in that department I'm going to buy used.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

cip 123 said:


> I've lurked in the thread for a while occasionally coming to see what's happening and I usually don't mind it, but something about someone actually going to their site and then posting a picture going "Why do they build guitars like this" was just the kind of petty negativity that made me snap a little.
> 
> Sorry if my opinion was misconstrued, it was simply keeping negativity going for negativities sake. Kiesel can build guitars anyway they want (as seen in this thread) but to go out of your way to get a picture of a guitar just to talk negatively about it's appearance was just stupid to me, it felt like just like "Oh we're at this point now" I get the hate bandwagons that this forum is sometimes partial too but like I said that level just made me a little pissed, and I'm not even a kiesel fan.




Nah, I totally get how petty and childish it can seem. I just can't really get behind the "lock it!" response to that.


----------



## Science_Penguin

A-Branger said:


> agree here, thats just complaining for the sake of it. And as far as colors and paint choices, they had done FAR worse than this. This is actually quite acceptable and not bad looking as color theme (paint/wood/hardware choices)
> 
> I quite like the theme of it, BUT I would have painted the bevel part of the top (masked binding or whatever), so you only had two colors, the orange top and the body wood, instead of the 3 different layers. And maybe a different choice of woods for the neck, maybe a flame mapple or something light color maple without the purple laminates



As a matter of fact, I'm not just complaining for the sake of it, that's something I dislike regardless of which brand does it.

Hated it when Ibanez did it on those RGDs too...


----------



## Dredg

Criticism threads almost always hold better information for potential buyers than worship threads. We know the guitar plays great, has good tone, looks stunning, blah blah blah. It had better be all those things, otherwise the company wouldn't have lasted 70 years. But that's also the point. Kiesel bills itself as one of the best. From the front page of their website:



> For 70 years, Kiesel Guitars and Carvin Guitars has been building the highest quality guitars...


If that's the standard they want to claim, then by the guitar gods that's the standard we the customers should hold them to, and not just when we feel like it, ESPECIALLY if their company policy is to throw a tantrum every time they ship out a dud. Honestly, the thing that completely turned me off on Kiesel was hearing that they pulled ads from this site. Instead of addressing the issues raised, they just took their ball and went home. And if they pulled their ads because people were taking pot-shots, then I don't need to buy from a company that thin-skinned.

Other than Jeff not being a gigantic smack-talking D-Bag (I hear he's a really nice guy), the similarities in horror stories aren't a far cry from the failings of Ed Roman's custom shop. If I'm paying 4 figures for an instrument, it had better be up to spec; especially in the case of custom shop instruments, which are impossible to try before you buy. Embarrassment should be the primary emotion experienced by every employee in that company - especially the namesake - when one of these half-arsed builds shows up in a public forum.

Also, the whole deal of stripping parts off of customer guitars for advertisement purposes is outright offensive.


----------



## noise in my mind

Statistically, Kiesel only has a 3% chance of succeeding to the 4th generation. Doesn't look good lol.


----------



## A-Branger

KnightBrolaire said:


> When kiesel gets a customer who knows how to spec stuff (or when jeff isn't being a retard and trying to peddle his cotton candy finish/bukkake burst/vomitburst) then they do nice stuff and make pretty damn good guitars. The problem, which has been stated in this thread, is that they suck at customer service and don't seem to care about rectifying qc problems until they take a lot of flak on that model (see vader trem or the aries bridge stuff earlier in the thread). If kiesel had better customer service I'd gladly give them more of my money, but until they get better in that department I'm going to buy used.



true all that, but that was kinda the point of cip 123. That pic and post you made had nothing to do with the point you are making now, and what this tread was made for.

If you posted that pic with a "now they are charging $$$$$ extra for this feature", or something along those lines, then yes go for it. But you just posted a pic with a "I dont like this color/spec scheme" kinda point, which makes you look like just bashing the brand just for the sake of it.

IF Kiesel were a brand like Ibanez, where you only have a selection of 1-3 colors per model, and lets say "This is the new 8 string, offered ONLY in this color/wood combo", then yes, bash the brand all you want (I have done it to the questionable choices of Ibanez many times). But this is a "custom" brand where you pick your own finish, so who really cares if someone picked a weird finish. Which like I mention before its actually pretty nice compared to the awful terrible color/wood combos they have done in the past. Just post it on the funny guitars treads if its that awful.

But I pretty much agree that theres no reason why to close this tread


----------



## hairychris

J_Mac said:


> Don't hate the haters, love the haters. They hate that
> 
> I nearly ordered a Kiesel a few months ago, but the huge variety of reviews here put me off. Only because I live in the UK and a return for fixes would have been a nightmare. Gotta say I like their style but never played one. Would like to have a blast on one.
> 
> BTW where is the official Kiesel thread? Searched and could not find



It's funny, I've owned 3 older Carvins and they were all really good. I was close to getting on a Vader run but didn't have the cash. I'd think twice about them now as customer service seems to have gone a bit wonky... and being in the UK you need to add ~25% to cover import duty + VAT which makes them a less attractive proposition especially with the GBP being crap.


----------



## rami80

I saw this youtube review which reminded me of this thread. Same old after sales service from Kiesel.


----------



## Dredg

rami80 said:


> I saw this youtube review which reminded me of this thread. Same old after sales service from Kiesel.




Jeebus... I've seen more competent builds out of China.

Sure it's pretty, but for that price point there should be no flaws on the guitar, period.


----------



## Matt08642

rami80 said:


> I saw this youtube review which reminded me of this thread. Same old after sales service from Kiesel.




Janky nut
Janky K inlay
Janky luminlays
Rough fret ends (on the most used part of the board, no less)
Janky ferrule on the back
Gouge in the headstock
And the cherry on top: the same shoddy customer service as always

This company is a joke


----------



## NickS

I own 4 Carvins made from 2010 to roughly 2013, and I love all of them and never plan on moving them. The customer service was great in the "Carvin" days. And there is nary a flaw to be found between the 4. Very hard to stomach that there customer service is that bad now. I used to think of them as my favorite brand, hopefully they can recover.


----------



## Dredg

NickS said:


> I own 4 Carvins made from 2010 to roughly 2013, and I love all of them and never plan on moving them. The customer service was great in the "Carvin" days. And there is nary a flaw to be found between the 4. Very hard to stomach that there customer service is that bad now. I used to think of them as my favorite brand, hopefully they can recover.




The first step is always admittance. Kiesel is going to have to find the courage to admit that their craftsmanship is hit or miss, and that their current QC is inexcusably bad.


----------



## spudmunkey

rami80 said:


> I saw this youtube review which reminded me of this thread. Same old after sales service from Kiesel.



To be fair, this specific guitar was from (i believe) a little more than a year ago.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> To be fair, this specific guitar was from (i believe) a little more than a year ago.



So what you're saying is that quality and service has been on a decline for a little more than a year? 

It's not like it's ten years old. Which would probably be a good thing since that was when the "10 day guarantee" actually meant something.


----------



## Glades

Matt08642 said:


> Janky nut
> Janky K inlay
> Janky luminlays
> Rough fret ends (on the most used part of the board, no less)
> Janky ferrule on the back
> Gouge in the headstock
> And the cherry on top: the same shoddy customer service as always
> 
> This company is a joke



But, but ... It looks so metal! And it's only $3,500!


----------



## Dredg

spudmunkey said:


> To be fair, this specific guitar was from (i believe) a little more than a year ago.




All that says to me is that Kiesel continues to ship out and defend shoddy work while charging full custom prices.


----------



## BangandBreach

spudmunkey said:


> To be fair, this specific guitar was from (i believe) a little more than a year ago.



Fair about what, Why is the date relevant? They shipped out an expensive guitar with a lot of problems. Is there some sort of time period you can wait and then it's okay or somethin?


----------



## Arsenal12

Wow I haven't been on this site in awhile.. interesting to see this thread. 

I got my A6H from the Aries run in January.. love the guitar no real issues with it... but the setup from the factory on the Hipshot bridge immediately looked weird to me. I just figured it was done correctly. Is this totally setup wrong??


----------



## Dredg

Arsenal12 said:


> Wow I haven't been on this site in awhile.. interesting to see this thread.
> 
> I got my A6H from the Aries run in January.. love the guitar no real issues with it... but the setup from the factory on the Hipshot bridge immediately looked weird to me. I just figured it was done correctly. Is this totally setup wrong??




Strings look a little out of alignment with the pickup... those saddles are a bit high, no?


----------



## Glades

Yeah, those saddles are way too high. They should be pretty close to parallel with the top. But this is how Kiesel sets them up. You can't argue them about this because they will tell you this is how they are supposed to be. Either the neck pocket is not deep enough, or the neck is too thick at the heel. They will not fix it for you, because Kiesel.


----------



## Arsenal12

Here is another pic.. yea if they're supposed to sit flush they're crazy high


----------



## Dredg

Not as bad as OP, but that is absolutely a structural flaw if they have to be put that high.


----------



## spudmunkey

BangandBreach said:


> Fair about what, Why is the date relevant? They shipped out an expensive guitar with a lot of problems. Is there some sort of time period you can wait and then it's okay or somethin?



The comment I was replying to, made it sound like it was a new example. Sort of a "here we go again, still sending out crap" when the specific example was a year ago and that this was somehow proof it was continuing. I'm not defending any of Kiesel's actions, only that it isn't a NEW example that would indicate that they are still doing it. They very well may be still... but this example doesn't show that, which is what the previous post was starting. That's it. You're seeing things that aren't there.


----------



## spudmunkey

Arsenal12 said:


> Here is another pic.. yea if they're supposed to sit flush they're crazy high




Are they high? Yes. Does it mean the guitar is defective? Not necessarily. 

Mine look just like yours. When I broke out the digital calipers, I measured my string height at .45". Per Hipshot's own published dimensions, the max is .47", so technically my guitar is within spec. Is it ideal? No. Would i besmirch anyone who found it uncomfortable and wanted to send their guitar back? No. But is it defective? No. The bridge is installed as the component's manufacturer has deemed acceptable.


----------



## Hollowway

Do you guys with these high saddles have sky high action? If you've got really high action, then I think it's logical it's right at the top end of what the saddles can do. If you have low action, and it's there, then that would definitely be a problem for someone who wanted higher action and the ability to dig in when playing.


----------



## Arsenal12

Hollowway said:


> Do you guys with these high saddles have sky high action? If you've got really high action, then I think it's logical it's right at the top end of what the saddles can do. If you have low action, and it's there, then that would definitely be a problem for someone who wanted higher action and the ability to dig in when playing.



The action is fairly low on mine.. don't know how many mm the saddles are raised up but there probably is very little room to make it higher..


----------



## Glades

The problem with high set hipshots is comfort. If you play palm-muted stuff, that sharp machined edge of the 6th string saddle digs into your palm and is uncomfortable as all get out. It CAN go that high, but it's not recommended.
No custom shop, USA guitar should come out of the shop set that high.


----------



## A-Branger

just because you can doesnt mean you should. Yes, the saddles can go that high, but should they? Why not fix the CNC plans to have either a deeper neck pocket, or a thinner neck heel, along with deeper pickups to accomodate for it too.

Honestly it shouldnt take much time to change the 3D plans and CNC. And if the result is a better looking and more functional instrument, then why not? unless there is a very specific reason to have the strings at certain height from the body, then this is something someone at the assembly line, QC, tester, artist, prototypes, ect, should have seen and say "hey, this doesnt seem right?.." 

or is it so they can do some extreme rounded fretboard radiuses? like if a customer choose the 10" radius, the bridge sadles would have the range to accomodate for it?, or it makes no difference ?


----------



## Dredg

spudmunkey said:


> Are they high? Yes. Does it mean the guitar is defective? Not necessarily.
> 
> Mine look just like yours. When I broke out the digital calipers, I measured my string height at .45". Per Hipshot's own published dimensions, the max is .47", so technically my guitar is within spec. Is it ideal? No. Would i besmirch anyone who found it uncomfortable and wanted to send their guitar back? No. But is it defective? No. The bridge is installed as the component's manufacturer has deemed acceptable.




I interpret the acceptable range the same way I interpret things such as Floyd's fine tuners. Sure there is an acceptable min/max before the mechanisms lock, but there is a universally accepted starting point. With any sort of strat style saddles, sure, they CAN be set high, but if they are set high because it's the only way to achieve acceptable action, I would fault the manufacturer, especially if the accepted "default" is flush.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Funny thread over on the owners group on fbook


----------



## Explorer

I saw this tooic pop up on the SS.org front page feed. I haven't been here in a while, and thought, Is that topic where Jeff K savaged a cuatomer over Jeff's mad paint job skillz still going?

Then I realize it's a new topic, and.I start reading from the beginning... more than a few hours ago.

This topic makes me miss the rep bar and the like button. The drama of watching Jeffbro getting repeatedly banned was one of the highlights of reading this in one sitting. 

It's unfortunate that Kiesel is still going after customers, but I'm grateful for the head's up.


----------



## Dredg

Explorer said:


> The drama of watching Jeffbro getting repeatedly banned was one of the highlights of reading this in one sitting.



The moment I found out SSO banned Jeff and Kiesel's vendor account for trying to bully the mods, I immediately subbed. Couldn't be more happy about seeing this forum standing behind its members and their legitimate complaints.


----------



## -JeKo-

They seem to have had a ton of QC issues lately. A couple of weeks ago a guy received a very expensive Kiesel with the wrong headstock. Yesterday somebody posted that he had had a very dreadful photo match experience and Kiesel wasn't willing to take care of it.

Hopefully they start making changes quickly in terms of how they deal with disappointed customers. I've got a Kiesel which I'm happy with but won't be ordering another one anytime soon.


----------



## spudmunkey

-JeKo- said:


> Hopefully they start making changes quickly in terms of how they deal with disappointed customers. I've got a Kiesel which I'm happy with but won't be ordering another one anytime soon.



In the last coupe of weeks, they said they were just adding another set of eyes on every guitar after it would have gone through its one spec and quality check. One of the more experienced sales guys is supposed to start checking them all, primarily to make sure the guitar matches the spec sheet, but also for quality.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> In the last coupe of weeks, they said they were just adding another set of eyes on every guitar after it would have gone through its one spec and quality check. One of the more experienced sales guys is supposed to start checking them all, primarily to make sure the guitar matches the spec sheet, but also for quality.



Mistakes will happen. It doesn't matter how many eyes are on the prize. Even the best builders in the world screw up. It's inevitable. 

It's not even that Kiesel screws up a lot. There have been, and are, much worse. It's how they handle it. 

Saying they're just going to check extra good does nothing for the times they make mistakes.


----------



## coupe89

Arsenal12 said:


> Here is another pic.. yea if they're supposed to sit flush they're crazy high



Is that screw rusty on the volume knob?


----------



## Arsenal12

No, I just think it's bronze/brass screw and the flash caught it wrong. No rust 

So, I'll be honest I haven't read through the whole thread, and overall I have no problems with Kiesel (though a couple things they did during the Aries run I didn't agree with) but is the conclusion that my Aries can't be setup correctly without have the saddles set super high like it came from the factory? If that's in fact true that's disappointing to me.

Also, am I to understand Jeff Kiesel himself posted in this thread and was banned? Wow I need to find some time to read through the whole thing.


----------



## technomancer

Arsenal12 said:


> Also, am I to understand Jeff Kiesel himself posted in this thread and was banned? Wow I need to find some time to read through the whole thing.



Jeffbro was not Jeff Kiesel, just a serial troll. The "official" Kiesel account was closed after they terminated their sponsorship deal with the site as they no longer needed it. I believe Jeff Kiesel did post here one time to yell at a customer and I believe the account is still on here, but don't have the time to go looking for it. A couple of the sales reps still have accounts on here as well.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> Jeffbro was not Jeff Kiesel, just a serial troll. The "official" Kiesel account was closed after they terminated their sponsorship deal with the site as they no longer needed it. I believe Jeff Kiesel did post here one time to yell at a customer and I believe the account is still on here, but don't have the time to go looking for it. A couple of the sales reps still have accounts on here as well.



yeah i know for a fact that chris hong still lurks around here on occasion.


----------



## Arsenal12

Arsenal12 said:


> No, I just think it's bronze/brass screw and the flash caught it wrong. No rust
> 
> So, I'll be honest I haven't read through the whole thread, and overall I have no problems with Kiesel (though a couple things they did during the Aries run I didn't agree with) but is the conclusion that my Aries can't be setup correctly without have the saddles set super high like it came from the factory? If that's in fact true that's disappointing to me.
> 
> Also, am I to understand Jeff Kiesel himself posted in this thread and was banned? Wow I need to find some time to read through the whole thing.



Go to it.. thanks for the clarification don't want to spread misinformation.


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah i know for a fact that chris hong still lurks around here on occasion.



Yeah Chris is a good guy


----------



## GuitarBizarre

Wait, so Jeffbro finally got permabanned? 

About damn time.


----------



## littleredguitars2

Arsenal12 said:


> No, I just think it's bronze/brass screw and the flash caught it wrong. No rust
> 
> So, I'll be honest I haven't read through the whole thread, and overall I have no problems with Kiesel (though a couple things they did during the Aries run I didn't agree with) but is the conclusion that my Aries can't be setup correctly without have the saddles set super high like it came from the factory? If that's in fact true that's disappointing to me.
> 
> Also, am I to understand Jeff Kiesel himself posted in this thread and was banned? Wow I need to find some time to read through the whole thing.



hipshot makes 2 different baseplate thicknesses for their bridges. buying the thicker one (.175 i think?) and swapping them out may help you slightly but i'm not sure it'll be enough to account for that neck slot.


----------



## Drew

spudmunkey said:


> Are they high? Yes. Does it mean the guitar is defective? Not necessarily.
> 
> Mine look just like yours. When I broke out the digital calipers, I measured my string height at .45". Per Hipshot's own published dimensions, the max is .47", so technically my guitar is within spec. Is it ideal? No. Would i besmirch anyone who found it uncomfortable and wanted to send their guitar back? No. But is it defective? No. The bridge is installed as the component's manufacturer has deemed acceptable.



Not to split hairs, but... 

You have to stop and pause for a second, and think about WHY the saddle height is adjustable. Saddle height is adjustable to control action - how high the strings are off the fretboard. There's no universally-accepted "correct" action, or there would be no reason for saddle height to be adjustable - Hipshot would expect manufacturers to align their bridges vertically with the same degree of precision as they require them to be aligned horizontally (notice how the side-to-side orientation is NOT user-adjustable on the bridge), and that would be the end of it. Saddles have a range to allow players to raise and lower the action to what THEY consider comfortable, and the ideal orientation is therefore going to be squarely inside that range - arguably, if anything, erring towards the lower side of the range, since the lower range is bounded by fretting out, whereas it's not bounded on the upper end. 

If the guitar is set for low action with the saddles at 0.45" in an adjustable range of 0.3" to 0.47", then the effective range isn't the 0.17" the bridge was designed to provide, but rather 0.02-0.04". That's absolutely a design flaw - the manufacturer is using about 80% of the total range of adjustment designed into the bridge just to make the guitar _playable_. You're left with a guitar that has about two hundredths of an inch on either end of range to adjust the action at the bridge.


----------



## jbcrazy

rami80 said:


> I saw this youtube review which reminded me of this thread. Same old after sales service from Kiesel.




When I saw the texts from the buyer to Jeff and his response... damn I feel so angry for the buyer. "Show some respect." The hell?

He gave you 4K of his hard earned money trusting you'd make a flawless guitar. That is more than enough respect.

It's sad because overall the guitar looks pretty nice and I'm sure they get it right more than most. But this attitude sucks. Screw giving money to a company like that.


----------



## FrznTek

jbcrazy said:


> It's sad because overall the guitar looks pretty nice and I'm sure they get it right more than most. But this attitude sucks. Screw giving money to a company like that.




If you change it to something like...

"It's sad because overall the guitar looks pretty nice and I'm sure they get it right more than *not*. But this attitude sucks. Screw giving money to a company like that."

I would say, that is the whole point of this thread.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I was more irritated at Jeff's attitude, too. The "show some respect" part just screams ego. Ola Strandberg had to battle a few QC issues with some builds from the Korea workshop, but he owned up to them, and was very humble about making things right. And, as a consequence, he is selling the MIK guitars for what Kiesel sells theirs for. So there is a way around this. No one expects a company to be infallible. But the ....ty attitude is the poorest business decision here.

It's also worth pointing out that in the video review, the screen shot of the original owner's text to Jeff talks about how he ordered a $4000 guitar because he was told that the K series had certain features unavailable on other guitars. But shortly after, Jeff offered those other features on regular instruments. This is one of the things I dislike most about Kiesel. Jeff specifically says things about how he will not, or can not, do certain things, in order to get people to not wait for an option to show up, and instead order "today." But then he does them. And I'm not talking about things that take years of development time. I'm talking about things that are likely in the pipeline, or things that are just an easy decision. There's no reason to lie, or be cagey about stuff. Apple brings out a new iphone every year, like clockwork. And people still all buy them. So if Jeff said he was going to have an option in the future, there's a pretty good chance people will still buy a guitar, and not wait forever for a perfect combination of specs. Honesty and transparency in this sort of thing would go a long way to letting customers know that Kiesel is in it with them for the long haul, and not trying to make a quick buck today.


----------



## jbcrazy

FrznTek said:


> If you change it to something like...
> 
> "It's sad because overall the guitar looks pretty nice and I'm sure they get it right more than *not*. But this attitude sucks. Screw giving money to a company like that."
> 
> I would say, that is the whole point of this thread.



Thanks for correcting.


----------



## jbcrazy

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I was more irritated at Jeff's attitude, too. The "show some respect" part just screams ego. Ola Strandberg had to battle a few QC issues with some builds from the Korea workshop, but he owned up to them, and was very humble about making things right. And, as a consequence, he is selling the MIK guitars for what Kiesel sells theirs for. So there is a way around this. No one expects a company to be infallible. But the ....ty attitude is the poorest business decision here.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that in the video review, the screen shot of the original owner's text to Jeff talks about how he ordered a $4000 guitar because he was told that the K series had certain features unavailable on other guitars. But shortly after, Jeff offered those other features on regular instruments. This is one of the things I dislike most about Kiesel. Jeff specifically says things about how he will not, or can not, do certain things, in order to get people to not wait for an option to show up, and instead order "today." But then he does them. And I'm not talking about things that take years of development time. I'm talking about things that are likely in the pipeline, or things that are just an easy decision. There's no reason to lie, or be cagey about stuff. Apple brings out a new iphone every year, like clockwork. And people still all buy them. So if Jeff said he was going to have an option in the future, there's a pretty good chance people will still buy a guitar, and not wait forever for a perfect combination of specs. Honesty and transparency in this sort of thing would go a long way to letting customers know that Kiesel is in it with them for the long haul, and not trying to make a quick buck today.



I think prs does it right in that sense. The private stock line sometimes has features that are exclusive but eventually it trickles down to the core line. 

Get your .... together kiesel. They have so much potential.


----------



## DudeManBrother

Arsenal12 said:


> Wow I haven't been on this site in awhile.. interesting to see this thread.
> 
> I got my A6H from the Aries run in January.. love the guitar no real issues with it... but the setup from the factory on the Hipshot bridge immediately looked weird to me. I just figured it was done correctly. Is this totally setup wrong??



I think they're placing the saddles in the wrong spots. I noticed it with my AM6 too. The 1 and 2 should be swapped with the 6 and 5. The deep notched saddles are much wider on top and the thick strings sit properly in them and don't need to be so damn high. The current set up has the thick strings on a shallow channel with no notch, which pushes the string up higher and causes a buzz until it reaches a certain break angle and tension. Swap them around and it should all work out.


----------



## Dredg

Hollowway said:


> It's also worth pointing out that in the video review, the screen shot of the original owner's text to Jeff talks about how he ordered a $4000 guitar because he was told that the K series had certain features unavailable on other guitars. But shortly after, Jeff offered those other features on regular instruments. This is one of the things I dislike most about Kiesel. Jeff specifically says things about how he will not, or can not, do certain things, in order to get people to not wait for an option to show up, and instead order "today." But then he does them. And I'm not talking about things that take years of development time. I'm talking about things that are likely in the pipeline, or things that are just an easy decision. There's no reason to lie, or be cagey about stuff. Apple brings out a new iphone every year, like clockwork. And people still all buy them. So if Jeff said he was going to have an option in the future, there's a pretty good chance people will still buy a guitar, and not wait forever for a perfect combination of specs. Honesty and transparency in this sort of thing would go a long way to letting customers know that Kiesel is in it with them for the long haul, and not trying to make a quick buck today.



Well yea, but as stated above, PRS is guilty of the same thing. Granted, they're a lot more humble when resting on their laurels but they're still a cafeteria-plan custom shop that gives slightly more flexibility over options. PRS does have a full-custom inlay process, allows clients to hand-pick their wood at the factory, and will make body adjustments within their comfort zone.

Yet just like Kiesel's K series, PRS Private Stock is indeed a test lab for new concepts. A few weeks ago, someone on the Ormsby GTR facebook page revealed that PRS was starting to experiment with multiscale at the custom level. I assume that if Paul sees a significant shift towards multiscale demand in his target market, the design will trickle down to their USA production line. Does it cost more right now? Sure, because that's how both companies are assessing their risk for the new feature. Even if we grant the scenario that Kiesel is fully able to operate at a full-custom level, the fact that they are not a full-custom shop gives them every right to decline a feature, and then introduce it when they feel it will sell.

Do they go about it in the wrong way? Absolutely. But at the prices he charges, a customer could just go to an actual custom shop and order a clone... probably would save some money on it as well.


----------



## sezna

So is this the official Kiesel thread now? If so, I have a question.

I have a matte finished vader v7. I really love it, but the finish acquires a shine _very_ fast. I wipe it down after every time I play it, but still, it is not a durable finish. I e-mailed kiesel and asked if anything can be done (I know matte finish is notoriously irreparable, but I figured it was worth a shot...)

Kiesel recommended I use this.
I am kind of skeptical. It is for matte car finishes. Think I should do it?


----------



## Arsenal12

sezna said:


> So is this the official Kiesel thread now? If so, I have a question.
> 
> I have a matte finished vader v7. I really love it, but the finish acquires a shine _very_ fast. I wipe it down after every time I play it, but still, it is not a durable finish. I e-mailed kiesel and asked if anything can be done (I know matte finish is notoriously irreparable, but I figured it was worth a shot...)
> 
> Kiesel recommended I use this.
> I am kind of skeptical. It is for matte car finishes. Think I should do it?



I would suggest posting in this thread:

http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-77


----------



## Lemons

Arsenal12 said:


> I would suggest posting in this thread:
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-77



Yeah, this thread is only for bashing Kiesel.


----------



## LOUDONE

Hey man, sorry to hear about your negative experience. It's just as bad if not worse than the one I had with Ed Roman many years ago. I mean ripping parts off customer guitars for NAMM? I mean, who would let that fly? If you want perfect fit and finish, the Japanese do it best. I've had them all... Bernie Rico JR., ESP, Schecter Custom Shop, BC Rich USA, Gibson, Jackson USA, PRS, Caparison, HAMER USA, etc. The ESP, Caparison, and Schecter (Tetsu and Shigeki build them) were all perfect. I just bought an EVH Wolfgang Special made in Mexico that blows some of these high end guitar companies away and I only paid $900.00 (couldn't be happier). So if you're going to spend $3,000-$4,000 on a guitar, make sure you settle for nothing but top notch customer service from these guys. I'd send it back... maybe they can use the parts for the 2018 NAMM show LOL.


----------



## Zado

> Schecter (Tetsu and Shigeki build them)


Well it's more a blend of USA and Japan with Gaudesi


----------



## QuantumCybin

So I read all 48 pages of this....I need a life


----------



## marcwormjim

The question is, after 48 pages, do you need a _Kiesel_?


----------



## QuantumCybin

marcwormjim said:


> The question is, after 48 pages, do you need a _Kiesel_?




No, I don't think so


----------



## Element0s

Man despite all this horseshit I still find myself getting gassy for a sexy, white V220. Hopefully I can find a rad used one floating around Canuckistan.


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## jl-austin

Element0s said:


> Man despite all this I still find myself getting gassy for a sexy, white V220. Hopefully I can find a rad used one floating around Canuckistan.



Nothing screams "We built this City (on Rock and Roll)" by Starship like a V220!


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## Rawkmann

jl-austin said:


> Nothing screams "We built this City (on Rock and Roll)" by Starship like a V220!



I always think about when Marty Friedman used to play one.


----------



## LOUDONE

Carvin will always be known to me as a mail order "budget guitar." That may sound ignorant but truth is (and Ed Roman was absolutely correct with this statement) they do not hold their value due to no dealerships involved. 

You want perfection? ESP, Caparison, Schecter USA. There you have it.


----------



## iamaom

LOUDONE said:


> they do not hold their value due to no dealerships involved.


Kiesel or not, that's not a very fair way of judging a guitar's quality. That's like saying my Kia Rio is a better car than a Tesla because you can't buy a Tesla at a dealership.


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## USMarine75

^ that and wow what a narrow list of perfect guitars? PRS, Gibson, Fender, Collings, Suhr, Vigier, Knaggs, Anderson, Ibanez, Jackson, and prob a ton more I'm forgetting make elite guitars, depending on your taste. 

Plus other guitars that I wouldn't say are "elite" god-tier instruments, like Gretsch, hold their value too. The biggest losers when it comes to holding value are the ones with super high initial markup or overseas related markup (VAT) like Mayones and Skervesen, or the customs like PRS Private Stock that can't possibly hold their initial value ($13k?). The ones that technically hold their value the best are the ones that are the mid value guitars like an Ibanez RG3550 that retail for $1500 and sell used for $1000.


----------



## LOUDONE

I only mentioned a few companies that I like that I've been very satisfied with. But my opinion is my opinion... Carvin is a budget brand. The fact that their prices have gone up makes it much less likely that I would ever buy one because I always thought of them as the CHEAP alternative to a REAL Custom Shop guitar. If I were to spend $3-4 Grand, it would be on a guitar that would hold somewhat of its value. Most of the time you're going to lose money when selling a guitar. You're correct when mentioning Gibson, Fender, Suhr, PRS... the only one that would interest me out of those would be a Suhr, but all would hold value better than a Carvin or Keisel. Again, my opinion but I can't overcome the stigma. Kind of like other budget companies including CRATE, PEAVEY (I own and love my 6505), etc.


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## USMarine75

I wouldn't call Peavey a budget company. The only thing they go cheap on is their stock tubes and speakers are garbage. All of my Wolfgangs and HP are on par with PRS (not to include WL or PS models obviously) in initial quality, parts, and workmanship. The 5150 amps are no less quality than Bogner or Diezel, which charge 2-3x more. Sure they are not hand-wired, but there are many electrical engineers and famous amp designers that will tell you that is a bogus claim for quality anyways.

But in the end it's all opinion anyways. I always thought PRS and Gibson were overpriced tone-snob guitars... now I'm a fanboy. But I also have a stock MIK Schecter Loomis that I'll put against any custom shop guitar of any make. Maybe I got lucky? Maybe it wasn't made on a Friday (as my Dad used to say). Gibson made plenty of QC duds from 2000 until recently (so I'm told). But in the end it's whatever speaks to you and lets you speak as a musician. (Jason Becker recorded some of his best work with a Hurricane guitar through an ADA MP1.)

But, I def agree with you. Carvin/Kiesel got overhyped and now they are definitely regressing back to the norm, or maybe slightly under at this point due to Jeff's questionable manning of the helm.

tl;dr crate is garbage


----------



## iamaom

LOUDONE said:


> The fact that their prices have gone up makes it much less likely that I would ever buy one because I always thought of them as the CHEAP alternative to a REAL Custom Shop guitar. If I were to spend $3-4 Grand, it would be on a guitar that would hold somewhat of its value. Most of the time you're going to lose money when selling a guitar.


Yes, Carvin/Kiesel has always been on the budget model of custom shops, but I'd rather take a good Carvin for 1k over an off the rack scuffed up guitar center gibson or fender for 1k (hell I could build a better warmoth for cheaper). For the value you're getting a lot more. Carvin/Kiesel also have something that others don't have: progressive models. Gibson and PRS aren't doing an 8 string fanfret headless, and if you want one from one of the custom shop big boys it's going to cost you a nice chunk of change and wait for nearly a year or more. Carvin/Kiesel hits the sweet spot for me and many others, a decent price for a decent guitar that no one else makes in less than 6 months build time. 

No, I wouldn't compare my vader to a 10k PRS, but there are diminishing returns on playability. You're paying that extra 9k for customer service, exotic woods, brand, and one hell of a conversation piece. I bought my vader to play, I bought it to last for life or at least for a very long time. I'm not interested in reselling. I actually find it kind of crazy how obsessed with resale value some are, especially the really high rollers. If I wait 1 year or more for a guitar that costs more than some peoples cars, I'm sure as hell not going to play it for 3 months and then sell it again. Not everyone buys guitars like they buy haircuts, some are intending to buy for life. The resale value of my Kiesel means nothing to me, it's so specific that even if kept in 100 perfect condition no one will want to buy such a specific taste guitar after the headless/extended range goes out of style anyways.


----------



## narad

Yea, resale value doesn't mean anything to anyone, until you realize you didn't actually buy that guitar for life. This is akin to getting married and being like, "I'm not worried about a prenup because I love her so much and we'll be together for ever and ever." Except that the divorce rate is like 40% and the guitar divorce rate is like 98%. Worrying about resale here is then like saying, "Yea, this is like my 47th marriage or something, and I've learned a few things, so sign that paper."


----------



## mbardu

No matter - Why is resale value an argument against Kiesel these days anyway?
They lose 40% of their value upon resell - so what? Other brands are no different.
It _was_ an argument when you would get a decked out Carvin for 400$ but the word is out now and those days are looooong gone.

I got my favorite PRS used. It was 6k new at Brian's and I paid 2.7k for it in mint condition.
Does that make PRS any worse?


----------



## TedEH

LOUDONE said:


> Carvin is a budget brand


I don't understand any of the "this guitar isn't 100% perfect for me, therefor it's budget". If I walk into a shop, pick up the first Squier I see, with it's rusty strings and mile high action cause nobody's touched it in years, and start shredding it through a Katana or Spider or something - yeah THAT's a budget guitar. I'd argue lots of the production Esp/Schecter/Etc. stuff I see people playing out there is "budget" stuff, in terms this board might use, in the sense that it's not custom, and it's not from those company's top ranges. Pretty much everyone I know rocks this "budget" level stuff (aka. standard level, not custom stuff), and they sound and play perfectly fine.

The brand, price and "custom" snobbery kinda baffles me a lot of the time. I can pick up a $200 piece of junk and make it work for me. I grabbed a Squier Jazz bass the other day and it played great- without the name on it, nobody would know it was a "budget" instrument. A $500-1000 production guitar from pretty much any brand is more than enough instrument for pretty much anyone (and I have trouble believing Carvin/Kiesel is lower quality or value than any random $500 guitar I grab off the shelf)- the only reason to label something as budget at that point or beyond is to stick it to them.


----------



## bostjan

mbardu said:


> No matter - Why is resale value an argument against Kiesel these days anyway?
> They lose 40% of their value upon resell - so what? Other brands are no different.
> It _was_ an argument when you would get a decked out Carvin for 400$ but the word is out now and those days are looooong gone.
> 
> I got my favorite PRS used. It was 6k new at Brian's and I paid 2.7k for it in mint condition.
> Does that make PRS any worse?



The real-life fact of business, though, is that a brand needs to convince me why I should buy, not that the reasons why not to buy are less important or whatever. So, why should I buy a Kiesel?

Back in the Carvin days, just telling me "this is a cool seven string" and then showing me the price tag was enough. Nowadays, there are thousands of other shops putting together instruments on par with what Kiesel makes for similar prices, so why should I care? IS there anything to make the company stand out, other than a large number of customer complaints with their service, stuff being out-of-spec and passed off as if it were made that way intentionally, or the Ed-Roman-Jr. attitude of the company owner?


----------



## xzacx

iamaom said:


> Kiesel or not, that's not a very fair way of judging a guitar's quality. That's like saying my Kia Rio is a better car than a Tesla because you can't buy a Tesla at a dealership.



But you can buy a Tesla at a Tesla dealership. The same way you buy a Kia at a Kia dealership. Probably beside the point, but I just didn't get the argument here.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the #1 reason for me to buy a kiesel is still the sheer amount of options you can get for the price. When kiesel delivers on a good guitar, it's a great guitar. My dc600 is easily on par aesthetically and playability wise with the custom/core PRS guitars I played at GC. Same with my vader. Yeah PRS has more brand recognition/ way better customer support/overall consistency but I'm willing to give kiesel another shot since I've owned 3 of their guitars and loved all of them. If I wanted a guitar comparably specced to my dc600 I'd have to go private stock since most PRS have pretty fixed wood combos.


----------



## Jeff

iamaom said:


> Kiesel or not, that's not a very fair way of judging a guitar's quality. That's like saying my Kia Rio is a better car than a Tesla because you can't buy a Tesla at a dealership.



Agreed. I care more about the fact that their QC is sketchy, and their CS sucks.


----------



## jbcrazy

KnightBrolaire said:


> the #1 reason for me to buy a kiesel is still the sheer amount of options you can get for the price. When kiesel delivers on a good guitar, it's a great guitar. My dc600 is easily on par aesthetically and playability wise with the custom/core PRS guitars I played at GC. Same with my vader. Yeah PRS has more brand recognition/ way better customer support/overall consistency but I'm willing to give kiesel another shot since I've owned 3 of their guitars and loved all of them. If I wanted a guitar comparably specced to my dc600 I'd have to go private stock since most PRS have pretty fixed wood combos.



In fairness, I still see alot of happy Kiesel buyers. I'm tempted to spec out a 7 mutliscale myself because of the price/options/designs but just a few of these 'issues' still bother me to even support a company like that.

QC issues are bound to happen. It's the 'bad customer service' that bothers me. And bad customer service is putting that lightly.

Why the hell are buyers being berated? I still don't get it. Make them happy... it will help you in the long run!

I don't see the benefit on either side.

I personally think some Kiesels look amazing and there's definitely talent in that factory.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

jbcrazy said:


> In fairness, I still see alot of happy Kiesel buyers. I'm tempted to spec out a 7 mutliscale myself because of the price/options/designs but just a few of these 'issues' still bother me to even support a company like that.
> 
> QC issues are bound to happen. It's the 'bad customer service' that bothers me. And bad customer service is putting that lightly.
> 
> Why the hell are buyers being berated? I still don't get it. Make them happy... it will help you in the long run!
> 
> I don't see the benefit on either side.
> 
> I personally think some Kiesels look amazing and there's definitely talent in that factory.


yeah they've slowly been heading down a route that I don't like with the customer service, but if you can, try to work with chris hong, he's legit the best dude there. I've never heard a complaint about him, just manny, mike and jeff.


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah they've slowly been heading down a route that I don't like with the customer service, but if you can, try to work with chris hong, he's legit the best dude there. I've never heard a complaint about him, just manny, mike and jeff.



Chris is awesome. Unfortunately in the event a decision needs made or something goes wrong he needs to check with Jeff, who calls the shots. One way or the other if you run into an issue you will be dealing with Jeff either directly or indirectly if it is anything out of the ordinary.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Yeah, unfortunately Chris isn't the head honcho and can only do so much. I do suggest going through him if you want to order a Kiesel though, as he's been nothing but pleasant to me. I'm still very much on the fence with giving Kiesel my business, but they do have some great prices on some great items. My last guitar with them was one of those "non-returnable" deals, but I lucked out. If I go through them again, I'll likely be going for something more basic. I really don't want to risk something going south. In fact, if I order something through them again it'll likely be a "if it comes to me even slightly to my disliking, then it just goes back with no second chances" kind of thing.

I do love my two Kiesels, and given my personal experiences I really want more... It's just a bit hard to pull the trigger again when things have been going like they have. I might go against my own personal judgement and order a multi scale next tax season. Something with the return policy in case something is indeed wrong with it.


----------



## purpledc

I almost bought another carvin (kiesel) but I have just had too many crappy experiences with them. Considering the 10 carvins I have owned (probably more) I just couldn't roll the dice anymore. Many of them were used so I tried having 3 or 4 made and they all were crap. They looked amazing. The finishes are absolutely stunning. But playability and sound have always left me wanting. Not to mention no one really knows much about guitars over there. Ive had conversations with some of them and felt like I needed to teach them about certain topics before they could even understand what I was saying. They have the basics down but the little things that separate them from the big boys is where they really fall short. 

For instance I had a CT6 with a Floyd made. The guitar had no neck angle. That isn't a bad thing in and of itself but because of that extremely flat angle and no tilt to the headstock the strings actually didn't sit over the nut right. So you would tune it, and go to lock down the nut and it would pull the strings sharp because the strings only made contact on the very front portion of the nut. So I had to send it in to have them install one of those Floyd string bars that push the strings down properly over the nut. They literally could not understand why I wanted them to install the thing. Even after explaining the tuning issue. Their response was that is what your fine tuners are for. 

That same guitar also started having finish delaminating issues around the control cavity screw holes. The guitar was black limba. And way too heavy for a black limba body. This along with other issues I have had with Carvin has me believing they don't properly dry their woods. Regardless when the guitar went back for the finish delamination issue I asked if they would consider refinishing the back because it looked like the finish had air bubbles near certain parts of the grain leading me to believe moisture was trapped under the finish and causing it to pop from the wood. They did not. Their answer was to simply countersink the holes that were delaminating. It looked horrible and I should have just handled it myself. 
IMHO kiesel makes pretty guitars. But that's about all.


----------



## lewis

purpledc said:


> For instance I had a CT6 with a Floyd made. The guitar had no neck angle. That isn't a bad thing in and of itself but because of that extremely flat angle and no tilt to the headstock the strings actually didn't sit over the nut right. So you would tune it, and go to lock down the nut and it would pull the strings sharp because the strings only made contact on the very front portion of the nut. So I had to send it in to have them install one of those Floyd string bars that push the strings down properly over the nut. They literally could not understand why I wanted them to install the thing. *Even after explaining the tuning issue. Their response was that is what your fine tuners are for*.


----------



## marcwormjim

Edit: Woke up, sat down at computer with cup of coffee, read posts, posted vitriolic Kiesel essay while coffee cooled, drank coffee, read post again, deleted it.

Coffee, folks.


----------



## spudmunkey

purpledc said:


> For instance I had a CT6 with a Floyd made. The guitar had no neck angle. That isn't a bad thing in and of itself but because of that extremely flat angle and no tilt to the headstock the strings actually didn't sit over the nut right. So you would tune it, and go to lock down the nut and it would pull the strings sharp because the strings only made contact on the very front portion of the nut.



To be fair, I've never owned a guitar with a Floyd that got this right.  From a Prestige Ibanez down to a crappy GTX with a licensed Floyd, they all did that. I've played some in stores that got this right, but only because they had retainer bars. I think the issue is that they use the same neck/headstock CNC program for both nuts and the Floyd locking nut which is retarded.

Can you clarify what you mean by "no neck angle"? Neck angle wouldn't solve the issue you mention, and the headstock does tilt back


----------



## Ebony

The Kiesel website make me think of one of those poorly driven, multi-national 'à la carte restaurants that has 80 dishes on the menu that all taste the same, run by a charismatic yet clueless, quasi-asshole that's destined to tango with Gordon Ramsay at some point.

Judging by the ever-flowing stream of bad rep about this brand, it seems unless your name is something like Gambale or Holdsworth it's a coin toss whether you get a quality product or not.

A total shame since their work is well-priced, beautiful and unlike every other custom guitar builder since the dawn of time, you can actually order an instrument in real time instead of being put on a 47-year waitlist.


----------



## Hollowway

There are a number of reasons I won’t be buying a new kiesel. The latest is the July “sale” fiasco. They marked the JB24s down by an extra $100 online, and posted the sale image in the listing. (There may have been others, too.) That was on Saturday the 1st. Then on a Sunday I saw in the forums that they would donate an extra $100 to Jason for every JB24 sold in July. I thought, dang, that’s cool, maybe I should buy one. Then on Sunday, the price was back up to the regular amount and the sale ad now talked about donating the extra money to Jason. So my guess is that someone put he ad in incorrectly, or Jeff changed his mind when a couple sold, who knows. But, the whole JB24 in-stock listing is false advertising anyway, because the normal price is $1599. But on the in stock page it shows the normal price is $1799, marked down to $1599, with a “save $200” next to it. When I called there I spoke with Mike (who is, I was surprised, quite jerky) and he said they can’t figure out how to make the site show it as the normal price, so they have to inflate it so the $200 savings can be applied. Which sounds like complete BS, but whatever. The fact is that Jeff is trying to squeeze more money out of the company, but going about it in the wrong way. Bottom line is that I’m totally open to buying a used Kiesel, but no way I’m going to roll the dice on getting a new one.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> There are a number of reasons I won’t be buying a new kiesel. The latest is the July “sale” fiasco. They marked the JB24s down by an extra $100 online, and posted the sale image in the listing. (There may have been others, too.) That was on Saturday the 1st. Then on a Sunday I saw in the forums that they would donate an extra $100 to Jason for every JB24 sold in July. I thought, dang, that’s cool, maybe I should buy one. Then on Sunday, the price was back up to the regular amount and the sale ad now talked about donating the extra money to Jason. So my guess is that someone put he ad in incorrectly, or Jeff changed his mind when a couple sold, who knows. But, the whole JB24 in-stock listing is false advertising anyway, because the normal price is $1599. But on the in stock page it shows the normal price is $1799, marked down to $1599, with a “save $200” next to it. When I called there I spoke with Mike (who is, I was surprised, quite jerky) and he said they can’t figure out how to make the site show it as the normal price, so they have to inflate it so the $200 savings can be applied. Which sounds like complete BS, but whatever. The fact is that Jeff is trying to squeeze more money out of the company, but going about it in the wrong way. Bottom line is that I’m totally open to buying a used Kiesel, but no way I’m going to roll the dice on getting a new one.


pretty much how I feel. Even with having no snafus/issues with my vader build I just don't feel comfortable giving them more money since their customer service/communications seem to be lacking. I keep getting tempted by a shiny 8 string in their in stock but that was quickly solved by ordering another guitar from knightro


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Hollowway said:


> There are a number of reasons I won’t be buying a new kiesel. The latest is the July “sale” fiasco. They marked the JB24s down by an extra $100 online, and posted the sale image in the listing. (There may have been others, too.) That was on Saturday the 1st. Then on a Sunday I saw in the forums that they would donate an extra $100 to Jason for every JB24 sold in July. I thought, dang, that’s cool, maybe I should buy one. Then on Sunday, the price was back up to the regular amount and the sale ad now talked about donating the extra money to Jason. So my guess is that someone put he ad in incorrectly, or Jeff changed his mind when a couple sold, who knows. But, the whole JB24 in-stock listing is false advertising anyway, because the normal price is $1599. But on the in stock page it shows the normal price is $1799, marked down to $1599, with a “save $200” next to it. When I called there I spoke with Mike (who is, I was surprised, quite jerky) and he said they can’t figure out how to make the site show it as the normal price, so they have to inflate it so the $200 savings can be applied. Which sounds like complete BS, but whatever. The fact is that Jeff is trying to squeeze more money out of the company, but going about it in the wrong way. Bottom line is that I’m totally open to buying a used Kiesel, but no way I’m going to roll the dice on getting a new one.


I really hope Jason gets all of the July money due him. If not, that's really shitty.


----------



## Electric Wizard

Hollowway said:


> But, the whole JB24 in-stock listing is false advertising anyway, because the normal price is $1599. But on the in stock page it shows the normal price is $1799, marked down to $1599, with a “save $200” next to it. When I called there I spoke with Mike (who is, I was surprised, quite jerky) and he said they can’t figure out how to make the site show it as the normal price, so they have to inflate it so the $200 savings can be applied.


Not understanding how to work the website is such a poor excuse. This was in the news at the beginning of the year, with big retailers being hit with class actions for the very same thing. I can't believe they'd just openly admit that...


----------



## laxu

bostjan said:


> The real-life fact of business, though, is that a brand needs to convince me why I should buy, not that the reasons why not to buy are less important or whatever. So, why should I buy a Kiesel?
> 
> Back in the Carvin days, just telling me "this is a cool seven string" and then showing me the price tag was enough. Nowadays, there are thousands of other shops putting together instruments on par with what Kiesel makes for similar prices, so why should I care? IS there anything to make the company stand out, other than a large number of customer complaints with their service, stuff being out-of-spec and passed off as if it were made that way intentionally, or the Ed-Roman-Jr. attitude of the company owner?



How about things like:

Fast delivery times for a made-to-order guitar. Try getting that from any other builder in about 3-4 months.
Huge selection of options to pick from.
Pretty fair prices for base models. You don't have to spec a $3000 guitar from them.
Offering unusual features like 7-8 strings, multiscale and headless models. You have to go with luthiers for most of these at probably double the price and built time.
For the most part good quality. Despite people being vocal in this thread about issues, you are more likely to find a shitty Gibson than a poorly built Carvin/Kiesel.


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## Jonathan20022

I'd wager the risk is equal, lack of QC and in general bad techniques when building the instruments shows a lack of overall attention put into builds on the factory level.

On paper all of that sounds great, but if you collected every issue that Kiesel has had in the last 12 months alone you'd probably think twice before ordering.

I enjoyed my guitars, and the first 5 were well built. But "For the most part" doesn't cut it when you're on the end of the stick with the damaged/poorly built/wrong instrument.


----------



## marcwormjim

laxu said:


> For the most part good quality. Despite people being vocal in this thread about issues, you are more likely to find a shitty Gibson than a poorly built Carvin/Kiesel.



It's _terrible _to say that Kiesel needs to be compared to Gibson to look good.

Most of either company's guitars are fine - It's just that both have a habit of publicizing memorable turds, then doubling down on claiming they don't stink.

Let's say I submit an online order for a guitar at base spec, then receive the phone order confirmation the next day, get mailed an ETC/ETA postcard, that date comes and goes, I email inquiring about it, receive no response, email again, receive a response informing me the cost of the guitar has been increased but nothing else, call them, get told that the guitar is finished, that the upcharge is due to prices in the online builder having been out-of-date at the time I placed the order, then I receive the guitar next day.

Could have gone worse, right? But they don't get credit for not being worse. Nor do the minor problems get excused by comparing them to a worse company.

That scenario was my ordering experience with Carvin in 2011. Unimpressed with the company, guitar was fine, resale was terrible. Haven't ordered a new guitar since, think their guitars on the used market are great.

Should I claim that Carvin circa 2011 is a great company specifically because they're not Kiesel circa 2017? I fail to see how one's existence excuses the other.


----------



## bostjan

laxu said:


> How about things like:
> 
> Fast delivery times for a made-to-order guitar. Try getting that from any other builder in about 3-4 months.
> Huge selection of options to pick from.
> Pretty fair prices for base models. You don't have to spec a $3000 guitar from them.
> Offering unusual features like 7-8 strings, multiscale and headless models. You have to go with luthiers for most of these at probably double the price and built time.
> For the most part good quality. Despite people being vocal in this thread about issues, you are more likely to find a shitty Gibson than a poorly built Carvin/Kiesel.



I've dealt with plenty of small builders who delivered a finished guitar in 4 months or less. It's not as rare as everyone says. The issue is that the builders who are in the highest demand simply can't keep up with that pace, because they are in demand.

More expensive builders offer more options than Kiesel, in many cases, but I agree that, for the price, there are a lot of options. Unfortunately, though, it seems some of the options are not being implemented properly. This isn't sour grapes, because we've established on this board that there have been systematic errors in Kiesel's build process in the past. The frightening part is not that Kiesel errs, but that they err and then deny any culpability. As has been pointed out, the defense that other shitty builders do the same shitty things to their customers is not a valid excuse. 

If Jeff had merely done less to verbally attack his own customers in his videos, then the company would be better off now, in my opinion.

Of course, there will be hardened Kiesel fans for years, I defended Parker through their hardships, but, in the end, if the company starts treating paying customers with a hostile attitude, the company's business levels will recede. If the company's business levels recede too much, the company will cease to exist. I think Kiesel is at the front end of this right now, and could easily turn it around with some positive press. If things continue like they are now, though, Kiesel will not exist ten years from now.


----------



## xzacx

laxu said:


> For the most part good quality. Despite people being vocal in this thread about issues, you are more likely to find a shitty Gibson than a poorly built Carvin/Kiesel.



But you can try out a Gibson in a store before you buy it, without having to wait 3-4 months to find out if it's a good one.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

xzacx said:


> But you can try out a Gibson in a store before you buy it, without having to wait 3-4 months to find out if it's a good one.


unless you order from the gibson custom shop. there was a thread showing that they can't even match their own hardware/colors correctly. at least kiesel doesn't currently have that problem.


----------



## xzacx

KnightBrolaire said:


> unless you order from the gibson custom shop. there was a thread showing that they can't even match their own hardware/colors correctly. at least kiesel doesn't currently have that problem.



Yes, but he as also able to return/refuse it when they couldn't match a color, unlike the guy with the poorly matched Kiesel.


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## KnightBrolaire

xzacx said:


> Yes, but he as also able to return/refuse it when they couldn't match a color, unlike the guy with the poorly matched Kiesel.


good point


----------



## Andromalia

marcwormjim said:


> It's _terrible _to say that Kiesel needs to be compared to Gibson to look good.



Not really. gibson doesn't have a 50 page topic about QC failures and debatable business practices. Gibson likely sells a TON more guitars than Kiesel and their QC stories are the same as AMD video card driver horror stories: reminiscence from the past, not current reality. Although of course some guitars will always for soem reason pass inspection while they shouldn't have, Gibson today has got their game right. (For the record, I bought 3 Gibson new these last 5 years, all were fine)


----------



## xzacx

Andromalia said:


> Not really. gibson doesn't have a 50 page topic about QC failures and debatable business practices. Gibson likely sells a TON more guitars than Kiesel and their QC stories are the same as AMD video card driver horror stories: reminiscence from the past, not current reality. Although of course some guitars will always for soem reason pass inspection while they shouldn't have, Gibson today has got their game right. (For the record, I bought 3 Gibson new these last 5 years, all were fine)



Absolutely. General belief is that their Historics starting in 2013-2014 are as good or better than they've ever been - even among die-hard Gibson guys who are as picky as it gets with that stuff. That's not to say Gibson's poor reputation wasn't hard earned and well deserved, but it's certainly not as much of a reality today as the perception is. And again, with Gibson, it's a lot easier to run the racks or make a return if you do get a dud.

I've said this before, but whether it's fair or not, Kiesel has to have a higher standard thanks to the business model they've embraced.


----------



## Rawkmann

I have three 2016 model Gibsons and all are/were great instruments. I took a chance and ordered a Kiesel in 2015 that had fundamental design issues that I tried to bring to light even before they started the build and was told it was too late to change any specs. Lo and behold, I get the guitar and while beautifully finished was a total dud playability wise and with different fret material than I initially requested as well. I think in the end it was the overall customer service that really soured me on Kiesel, they seem pretty flexible before You place an order but after money has changed hands I felt stonewalled by them. Hell, I even blamed myself a little because I did an option 50 so the 'easy return' process wasn't really an option for me. But I think this was right before a lot of these issues started coming to light and all I was ever told was that getting a guitar from Carvin/Kiesel was basically foolproof so I took the chance. Personally, I'm done with them but I don't doubt they are capable of delivering amazing quality instruments (as evidenced by the many satisfied NGD posts). But I have no qualms about sharing my experiences as a warning to prospective buyers espcecially when I'm seeing these types of things happening with their other customers.


----------



## purpledc

spudmunkey said:


> To be fair, I've never owned a guitar with a Floyd that got this right.  From a Prestige Ibanez down to a crappy GTX with a licensed Floyd, they all did that. I've played some in stores that got this right, but only because they had retainer bars. I think the issue is that they use the same neck/headstock CNC program for both nuts and the Floyd locking nut which is retarded.
> 
> Can you clarify what you mean by "no neck angle"? Neck angle wouldn't solve the issue you mention, and the headstock does tilt back



Yeah I flubbed. The headstock angle was very minimal. I must have mentioned neck angle because carvins are known to be made without using a neck angle and recessing the bridge. But like you say, that would have no effect on the issue I had. Regardless I have had several Floyd guitars that didn't pull sharp when locking down the locking nut. My jacksons for instance never did this. Now if it was just a small amount I wouldn't really care. But this particular guitar it was so bad that after locking the nut you didn't have enough adjustment left in the fine tuner to get it back in tune.


----------



## Kodee_Kaos

Just pulled the trigger on a Vader. My sales guy was Mike Jones also. He actually seemed pretty amiable. Maybe when you dealt with him his dog had just been run over? Not trying to write off your experience, I would be pissed. I will post an update on the guitar when I receive it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a Vader. My sales guy was Mike Jones also. He actually seemed pretty amiable. Maybe when you dealt with him his dog had just been run over? Not trying to write off your experience, I would be pissed. I will post an update on the guitar when I receive it.


Hope everything goes smoothly.


----------



## budda

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a Vader. My sales guy was Mike Jones also. He actually seemed pretty amiable. Maybe when you dealt with him his dog had just been run over? Not trying to write off your experience, I would be pissed. I will post an update on the guitar when I receive it.



I hope you get the guitar you want.

At the same time, if anything happens to your guitar, and you ordered it after reading this thread... that's on you. That's poking the bear 

(Most people are amiable when you are clearly about to give them a sum of money, by the way - any business)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

budda said:


> I hope you get the guitar you want.
> 
> At the same time, if anything happens to your guitar, and you ordered it after reading this thread... that's on you. That's poking the bear
> 
> (Most people are amiable when you are clearly about to give them a sum of money, by the way - any business)


It's how they act afterwards, possibly when issues arise, that matters and what counts.


----------



## Kodee_Kaos

budda said:


> I hope you get the guitar you want.
> 
> At the same time, if anything happens to your guitar, and you ordered it after reading this thread... that's on you. That's poking the bear
> 
> (Most people are amiable when you are clearly about to give them a sum of money, by the way - any business)




I'm not too concerned in that aspect. I know how to push the issue when the issue is in need of pushing. Worst case scenario I get my money back and I'm only out a few hours of my time.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a Vader. My sales guy was Mike Jones also. He actually seemed pretty amiable. Maybe when you dealt with him his dog had just been run over? Not trying to write off your experience, I would be pissed. I will post an update on the guitar when I receive it.



Well of course he's not going to be a jerk to you when you're already about to give you some commission and money 

Fingers crossed it works out, but it's pretty obvious that the only issue with Kiesel is CS when something goes wrong. It's all rainbows and treated fretboards until it ain't.


----------



## Kodee_Kaos

Jonathan20022 said:


> Well of course he's not going to be a jerk to you when you're already about to give you some commission and money
> 
> Fingers crossed it works out, but it's pretty obvious that the only issue with Kiesel is CS when something goes wrong. It's all rainbows and treated fretboards until it ain't.



Dealing with halfassing suppliers and subcontractors is like 40% of my job. I really doubt that if there is a defect with the guitar I will have any issue resolving it. Kiesel seems to be vilified on this forum, pretty much to the point of them bring boycotted. I want a custom headless, so Im giving them a shot to deliver.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Like I said, hope it comes and fully meet your expectations.

But I was a 6x repeat customer, and my most expensive build had issues and I was left with no option but to threaten a chargeback before I was offered a refund.

http://sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-6#post-4715827

You're being positive and I get that, but just saying "I won't have any issues getting a resolution" won't just magically make things go smoothly in the case it happens.


----------



## diagrammatiks

they are hardly the only people making custom headless guitars anymore. 
Unless you really want are willing to get a plain Jane headless for 1300-1400 which is great and what kiesel should be used for.


----------



## oracles

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Dealing with halfassing suppliers and subcontractors is like 40% of my job. I really doubt that if there is a defect with the guitar I will have any issue resolving it. Kiesel seems to be vilified on this forum, pretty much to the point of them bring boycotted. I want a custom headless, so Im giving them a shot to deliver.



Did you manage to skip the testimonials in this forum from people with first hand experience that directly contradicts this? I applaud your optimism, and truly, I DO hope you receive an instrument that meets or exceeds your expectations of it, but to say that "there will be no problem" is a very bold, flawed perspective and statement when the thread you're posting in is offering first hand evidence of that difficulty. 

In Jonathan's case, he purchased their highest end instrument, costing twice, maybe then some what your build will total, and the customer support (or lack thereof) that he received is appalling.


----------



## Kodee_Kaos

Jonathan20022 said:


> Like I said, hope it comes and fully meet your expectations.
> 
> But I was a 6x repeat customer, and my most expensive build had issues and I was left with no option but to threaten a chargeback before I was offered a refund.
> 
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-6#post-4715827
> 
> You're being positive and I get that, but just saying "I won't have any issues getting a resolution" won't just magically make things go smoothly in the case it happens.




I appreciate your concern, and it's very odd they would handle a repeat customer in such a way. 




oracles said:


> Did you manage to skip the testimonials in this forum from people with first hand experience that directly contradicts this? I applaud your optimism, and truly, I DO hope you receive an instrument that meets or exceeds your expectations of it, but to say that "there will be no problem" is a very bold, flawed perspective and statement when the thread you're posting in is offering first hand evidence of that difficulty.
> 
> In Jonathan's case, he purchased their highest end instrument, costing twice, maybe then some what your build will total, and the customer support (or lack thereof) that he received is appalling.




Yes, I have been following this thread for a while. In fact that's why I think it's an opportune time to order a Kiesel. There is an ebb and flow to everything. In light of all the bad PR lately, I have a sense Kiesel will be on the upswing. They are in a hole, reputation wise. By ordering from them, I'm throwing them a rope. It's up to them to decide to use it to climb out, or to hang themselves. Personally I have faith that they will do the former. 

Call me crazy/idiotic/blind/etc. But there is no point in discussing this further at this point. I will have an update in about 10 weeks.


----------



## Rawkmann

Kodee_Kaos said:


> I appreciate your concern, and it's very odd they would handle a repeat customer in such a way.
> Yes, I have been following this thread for a while. In fact that's why I think it's an opportune time to order a Kiesel. There is an ebb and flow to everything. In light of all the bad PR lately, I have a sense Kiesel will be on the upswing. They are in a hole, reputation wise. By ordering from them, I'm throwing them a rope. It's up to them to decide to use it to climb out, or to hang themselves. Personally I have faith that they will do the former.
> 
> Call me crazy/idiotic/blind/etc. But there is no point in discussing this further at this point. I will have an update in about 10 weeks.


----------



## noise in my mind

I got out of keisel while it was still carvin. Makes me happy.


----------



## that short guy

I'm really sorry you guys got a raw deal. I'm just happy mine worked out really well. 

I placed an order with them assuming that with all the bad pr they'd been getting they'd have to step they're game because they couldn't afford any more public scrutiny. It wired out in my favor, I ended up with the best 6 string I've ever played. You can check the NGD I posted a week or so ago for that. 

Hopefully we start seeing more Kiesel stories like mine, but I can understand why done of you guys have some issues with them


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, it's not like they now have a business policy of not allowing returns, or to mistreat a customer. But the Russian Roulette of having a problem with a build or a return is starting to feel like there's more bullets in the chambers than in the past. What made me skittish is when the die hard Carvin/Kiesel guys on the kiesel bbs started getting miffed and rebuked. They were taking their comments off the facebook pages, and ignoring their questions (about cracked tops, for instance), and those guys felt that maybe things were no longer the way they used to be. These are guys that each own a few to >10 guitars from them. That's a customer you want to keep happy. But Jeff doesn't seem to care about the legacy he's taking over, and gives me the impression he is more concerned about making more money in the short term.


----------



## mystix

1000th post in thread!!!


Woooo hooo... continue your discussion


----------



## spork141

So after reading this thread for a while I decided to pull the trigger anyway. I knew I was rolling the dice but the thought of a totally custom guitar for just over $1000 bucks was pretty tempting. I figured id share my experience.

*1) Ordering: *Very easy. Called up and got Chris (by chance) and went through my specs. He seemed fine. No issues or problems with communicating. We went through the specs and he made a few suggestions on what to avoid and I gave my deposit. Was given a date of July 28th for shipping.

*2) In the meantime: *During the wait I checked in a few times and get responses most of the time. Assuming I checked in 5 times, I got answers to 3 of them on the first inquiry within a day or 2, and 2 of them I needed to follow up with another email. I only had one change to the order and that was to add black pole pieces to the pickups (they announced this at as an extra option at NAMM about a week or 2 before my due date.) THey were cool. Cost me an extra $20 but not the extra $50 change fee. Overall I would say their responsiveness in customer service was about a B- . See my comments below on my expectations. 

*3) Arrival:* They shipped my guitar on 8/4. So it was a little late but by no means unacceptable in my opinion. The guitar came out to my spec and they even got the black pole pieces in. What was weird is that they didn't email me to tell me it shipped. I just got this random tracking email from fedex telling me something was coming. I had to look at the sender to figure it was my guitar. Also, you won't get a pic first. They just send it and opening that case is certainly a heart attack 

4) Any issues? Only one that I can tell at this point is that the jack might be finicky. Please understand that Its possible this is the guitar chord but this did not happen on any other guitar I have. I just haven't tried with another chord to be sure. Annoying? Sure. But not the end of the world. I never think it's fair to comment on playability on a shipped guitar. Temperature changes and playing styles all vary and it's not exactly fair to make blanket statements on the internet in that regard. At least that's my 2 cents

*5) Final thoughts:* So I get it. Maybe their customer service could be better. Maybe their QC isn't best in class. We're all the best fans of our own money and it's normal to expect the best. But it's easy to forget the positives in all this. You are getting a friggin USA made custom guitar in 10 weeks for the same price as mid range guitars you find at guitar center. So if you are looking for a custom guitar for a mid range guitar price, I still think KIesel is a great option (maybe the only one). If you are going to drop 2 - 4k or something, then you might want to give it some thought as there are others in that space. 

On the flip side I think its normal for a company that's blowing up like Kiesel to have growing pains in these areas. It's probably not easy to keep the price points so low while bolstering your manpower to keep up with the volume of orders. Theres gotta be give somewhere. I hope they are investing on improving in these areas because I would hate to see them turn into another custom shop with long waits and tremendous price points. 

Here's my new aries. I am really liking it so far.


----------



## Jonathan20022

That's a gorgeous Aries, but please understand that your review is echo'd by every person who ends up with a solid one.

The issue doesn't lie in the "on paper" benefits of ordering a Kiesel. On paper the brand is the be all end all option for guitarists. 

- Quick
- Semi Custom
- Insane amount of options and models

The issue lies in when you end up with a bad guitar, and you're not being provided a reasonable solution for that. 

Again congrats on the guitar coming out well, but it doesn't discredit negative situations that have already happened.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

spork141 said:


> So after reading this thread for a while I decided to pull the trigger anyway. I knew I was rolling the dice but the thought of a totally custom guitar for just over $1000 bucks was pretty tempting. I figured id share my experience.
> 
> *1) Ordering: *Very easy. Called up and got Chris (by chance) and went through my specs. He seemed fine. No issues or problems with communicating. We went through the specs and he made a few suggestions on what to avoid and I gave my deposit. Was given a date of July 28th for shipping.
> 
> *2) In the meantime: *During the wait I checked in a few times and get responses most of the time. Assuming I checked in 5 times, I got answers to 3 of them on the first inquiry within a day or 2, and 2 of them I needed to follow up with another email. I only had one change to the order and that was to add black pole pieces to the pickups (they announced this at as an extra option at NAMM about a week or 2 before my due date.) THey were cool. Cost me an extra $20 but not the extra $50 change fee. Overall I would say their responsiveness in customer service was about a B- . See my comments below on my expectations.
> 
> *3) Arrival:* They shipped my guitar on 8/4. So it was a little late but by no means unacceptable in my opinion. The guitar came out to my spec and they even got the black pole pieces in. What was weird is that they didn't email me to tell me it shipped. I just got this random tracking email from fedex telling me something was coming. I had to look at the sender to figure it was my guitar. Also, you won't get a pic first. They just send it and opening that case is certainly a heart attack
> 
> 4) Any issues? Only one that I can tell at this point is that the jack might be finicky. Please understand that Its possible this is the guitar chord but this did not happen on any other guitar I have. I just haven't tried with another chord to be sure. Annoying? Sure. But not the end of the world. I never think it's fair to comment on playability on a shipped guitar. Temperature changes and playing styles all vary and it's not exactly fair to make blanket statements on the internet in that regard. At least that's my 2 cents
> 
> *5) Final thoughts:* So I get it. Maybe their customer service could be better. Maybe their QC isn't best in class. We're all the best fans of our own money and it's normal to expect the best. But it's easy to forget the positives in all this. You are getting a friggin USA made custom guitar in 10 weeks for the same price as mid range guitars you find at guitar center. So if you are looking for a custom guitar for a mid range guitar price, I still think KIesel is a great option (maybe the only one). If you are going to drop 2 - 4k or something, then you might want to give it some thought as there are others in that space.
> 
> On the flip side I think its normal for a company that's blowing up like Kiesel to have growing pains in these areas. It's probably not easy to keep the price points so low while bolstering your manpower to keep up with the volume of orders. Theres gotta be give somewhere. I hope they are investing on improving in these areas because I would hate to see them turn into another custom shop with long waits and tremendous price points.
> 
> Here's my new aries. I am really liking it so far.
> 
> View attachment 55654


Those options are really speaking to me...cool axe!
I love my AM7 too 

I get it though if others are less than 100%
Customer Care is super vital


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, that's a nice instrument!

The only correction I have is the "custom" part. It's semi custom, and while that may not be a difference to some people, it is to others. There are a lot of things Kiesel has as options, but loads of things they don't. But you're right - for a lightly specced guitar, Kiesel is hard to beat for options and price.


----------



## A-Branger

spork141 said:


> You are getting a friggin USA made custom guitar


this is the only part Im tired to read in this forum. The country where the guitar has been made has nothing to do with the quality of it.

HAve a look at any of the factory videos of their factory vs any other factory in any other part of the world. ITs exaclt the same process. CNC most of it, sand sand sand, asemble, paint, sand, buffing, settup, ship

The difference comes on the experience and attention to detail of the people who work on each part of the process. Just because its "U..S..A.." doesnt mean magically perfect instrument.


now having said that. Congrats on your new guitar, looks beautiful. Always love a seafoamgreen? with white pickups. And Im glad taht you didnt have any dramas with them. Hopefully they started to read forums and fix their customer service issues and their QC inside their factory so no lemons leave the floor. Because 100% of the time there was a customer service issue was due to a QC/build issue that went overlooked, no-one gave a F, someone say "meh, good enough" and shipped the guitar. And yes, even on a "USA made" guitar factory....

And although I get the point of "these are not custom but semi-custom" guitars. For the amount of options available, I still would call these customs. Any other "custom" builder out there still has some sort of limitations, usually on the body shape. Which for Kiesel its pretty much the limitation. Unless you are actually going full on blow up custom with 91284 strings and 235 pickups in a shape of a dolphin over an aluminium top. Maybe they have some limitations on the woods used for necks for example, but I bet you if you call them and are whiling to pay extra$$ they would allow you to get any material


----------



## spork141

*On my guitar:* Thanks to everybody for the kind words. To be honest, the color combo is pretty popular with Kiesel guitars. Aside from a few tweeks, it isn't a totally original look. I'm happy with the way it it came out and it defiantly relived some major gas I had.

*On USA Made guitars: *Totally agree. My 2 top quality guitars are Korean made LTDs. Id take these in the quality dept over most of my Japan and USA made guitars. My comments were specific to the price point. I'm a big fan of keeping home grown crafts alive and being able to support that means a lot to me. It makes me feel happy to know it wasn't made in a place where people get paid little to mass produce to keep the price down. Knowing I paid a similar price point and still got to support the craft is where my head was at. And this would go for craft work in any country. Not just the USA

*On Kiesel Customer Service: *Although my experience might have seemed positive, I don't know if I left feeling warm and fuzzy inside. This thread did a lot to dumb down my expectations so knowing it turned out pretty smooth isn't exactly a huge compliment. I can say for sure that it falls short of the experience Jeff sells in his social videos. I get it, he's a salesman and hes proud of his family business, but, I mean, you aren't even sent a single picture of your guitar before it ships. I mean that alone sounds like a no brainier if you want a satisfied customer.

*On custom guitars:* I would rate them "mostly custom." They have soooooo many options its hard to find a way not to get what you want. There are a few letdowns for me though. For instance they dont offer any white or colored binding on the body, neck or headstock. THey only offer natural which isnt the same thing. If they did it would be a different ball game for me. Plus I really wanted a string through tune-o-matic, and the upgrade costs for that on certain models were too high. Either way they are way more custom than the ESP custom builder thingy. That would be "semi-custom" in my book.


----------



## A-Branger

about the pics before shipping I think it falls into the category of this is not really kinda a full on custom guitar. Rather than a "pick your specs/color" build. Pretty much what has been mention here a lot on people expecting full on hand build custom quality/treatment on what it actually is a "production guitar" kinda thing

I totally agree that you should get a photo and a "seal of approval" before shipping out, and some progress pics and what not. But, I think that might be due to them working more as a prodcution facility, rather than a custom shop one. In other words, if they stop production on each single instrument to take progress pics and wait for customers to repply back with a "yes", then the whole production and logistics of the factory would flip upside down. One of the reasons they are able to deliver in such a quick turn around time on a "semi-custom" build (shared specs but individual finishes/colors/woods) is because of a streamlined factory floor. Reason why some weird request/finishes, require extra $ as it means to take that guitar out of their build steps to make something unique and then put it back into the "assembly line" approach 

as for the lack of binding on the body, thats due to the Aries massive bevel approach, you cant do binding on those, thats just a limitation of the body shape itself. But no idea why they dont offer it on frtboard/headstock..? now I think about it I havent seen it in any other body shape either?.... maybe the process of making the binding routing/cutting/glue/level its too not so much "time consuming", but more of a "it takes the guitar away from the "assembly line" process they have (pick woods/CNC/sand/pick color paint and spray/dye/buff/asembly-settup/ship) 

its like an A->B->C->D->E process, bindign would imply having to include steps F to G between B and C


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## diagrammatiks

I think custom versus semi-custom is just an issue of semantics now in terms of guitars.
Suhr and anderson aren't really custom shops but people call them custom builds.
Diesel won't build you anything you want and those other shops really won't either.


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## feraledge

spork141 said:


> Any issues? Only one that I can tell at this point is that the jack might be finicky.


Finicky jack!! Burn the bastards!! 
Nice looking guitar. Curious if they fixed the neck pocket issues and how the Hipshot saddle angle is looking. 
You did forget to mention one huge issue with this build: they built it with the headstock facing the wrong direction.


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## spork141

hahaaaaa yes feraledge, the only spec I debated on this was the orientation of the headstock. I went with standard as I recently acquired an Ibanez RGR465M in Soda blue and it has a reverse. Just wanted to mix it up

Valid points on both the photos and binding A-Branger. I think if they took the time to figure the photos out they wouldn't have so many customers receiving builds that weren't right. Maybe they could figure out an online builder like ESP has. Considering how much money they are probably making it shouldn't cost that much for a developer to whip one up.

The neck and headstock binding kills me. I am a big fan of a properly bound neck and headstock. Yeah its probably really hard to produce in this manner but id pay for it if they did


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## A-Branger

spork141 said:


> Maybe they could figure out an online builder


oohhh man you have no idea on how many weird finishes wont see the light of the day if there would be an online builder to see your chosen specs hahaha  

but honestly I have no idea why they havent done it. They have such a large catalog of studio photos of each guitars with different finishes and woods that it would be the easiest thing to do. Just separate everything on layers in photoshop, save as .png files and add to options on an online builder. Just simple 2D stuff. With the catalog they have it would be a piece of cake really. Any weird color they might dont have it would take a few minutes of photoshop to match a finish and create a new layer on the builder.

You know not only how cool, but how much sales they would have if you could see a mockup of the guitar once you finish choosing the specs on the online calculator?????.... they are missing big time there


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## diagrammatiks

A-Branger said:


> oohhh man you have no idea on how many weird finishes wont see the light of the day if there would be an online builder to see your chosen specs hahaha
> 
> but honestly I have no idea why they havent done it. They have such a large catalog of studio photos of each guitars with different finishes and woods that it would be the easiest thing to do. Just separate everything on layers in photoshop, save as .png files and add to options on an online builder. Just simple 2D stuff. With the catalog they have it would be a piece of cake really. Any weird color they might dont have it would take a few minutes of photoshop to match a finish and create a new layer on the builder.
> 
> You know not only how cool, but how much sales they would have if you could see a mockup of the guitar once you finish choosing the specs on the online calculator?????.... they are missing big time there



you'd have to consistently reproduce what's actually in the builder for it to be worth it...
can you imagine the actual clusterfuck they'd have with their customer service quality level where it is when people start getting guitars that don't look anything like whats in the builder.


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## spork141

I don't know about that. I can only imagine how hard it is now looking off of a table of options and knowing what to expect. At least with the builder you can speak to Kiesel customer service and have a productive conversation about things. Plus a nice batch of disclaimers saying that your wood top details wont match the builder are all fair game.

Anyway, I asked Chris about that when I spoke to him and he said they were working on one but noted it would probably be a ways off. Said it was one thing in a long list of priorities. Hopefully it's right behind neck binding!


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## A-Branger

diagrammatiks said:


> you'd have to consistently reproduce what's actually in the builder for it to be worth it...
> can you imagine the actual clusterfuck they'd have with their customer service quality level where it is when people start getting guitars that don't look anything like whats in the builder.



to reproduce their options is not that hard, specially when they already have hundreds of pro shots with different materials. AS long as you have one photo of a guitar with lets say a flame mapple fretboard, then you already have a layer of a fretboard that would apply to every guitar in the builder.

I have been doing lots of guitar mockups in photoshop for some guys using real photos and the work required to have the layers is really not much if you have a good source material like Kiesel does. As long as every photo is on the same front full body angle, then its a matter to mask out stuff. If not you dont even need a guitar witha new top. Just have a stock photo of a wood top to add as layers.

They can ahve a general builder with the color options they have in their calculator. To have a top layer for each color combo is not really that hard, considering stuff as burst which would get saved as an independent layer to apply instead of saving a new body shot each time.

IT would take some days?, weeks maybe?, not really or at all. MAybe one good week of work to have every option as a layer on one model guitar. Then when you repeat the process for a new shape, you already have 50% of the work done as stuff like hardware and fretboard and headstocks are shared. The more work consuming part would come with the coding require to create the builder?... donno I have no knoledge of websites and how to build something like that, but being a 2D image where you turn on/off layers according to their calculator menu, it shouldnt be too hard

and yeah a simple "this is for viewing purposes only, real life results on your guitar might differ blah blah" some big warning like that would do the job



spork141 said:


> I asked Chris about that when I spoke to him and he said they were working on one but noted it would probably be a ways off. Said it was one thing in a long list of priorities



they prob have nothing in the works, they jsut dont wanna say "no" to you. Pretty common practice in some bussiness (my old boss used to be like that and I hate it to work in that maner). OR maybe you jsut sparked the idea to him lol... hes like "mmmm thats kinda cool, would pitch that idea to Jeff and take credit for it muahahahaha"


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## spork141

I have a hunch. I have no proof that this is anything but that, but paying attention to Jeff's posts for a while, I have a feeling that he would be protective about something like a builder. I assume that Kiesel takes pride in their craft and doesn't want to limit themselves to just being the company that assembles someones else's design. Even if you order a nice wood top with a see through burst, some skill comes into picking the right slab of wood and correct amount of color. If you put that into a builder, the customer will expect that exact design. That might alienate the skill of the person putting together the guitar and cause tension with expectations.

Its just a hunch. I could be totally wrong. I work in digital product management myself and I am familiar with this type of pushback when technology steps on crafts toes. Nobody wants their years of learnings taking a back seat to technology. I assume the people at Keisel take a lot of pride on their work and dont want to be reduced to an assembly line employee.


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## marcwormjim

And that's how to put a positive spin on "Kiesel can't even match their _own_ photos."

http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...omatch-gone-wrong-final-update-5-3-16.309923/


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## crankyrayhanky

Photobucket $ Fail ruined that thread^


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## spork141

marcwormjim said:


> And that's how to put a positive spin on "Kiesel can't even match their _own_ photos."
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...omatch-gone-wrong-final-update-5-3-16.309923/



Im not familiar with the thread but Id like to be. Damn photobucket ruined the internet


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## A-Branger

yeah, for you to say a digital mockup would push Kiesel to force their workers to match the mockup and no "do thei job with the top at hand". Its the same as me seeing a photo of a Vader on their site and asking "can I please have the same guitar but as an Aries"

if not you are implying they are not consistent with their stains which I think they are, and it would look wrong if they are not.

The idea of a online builder is for example build purposes only. Its not a tool with 1289401274012749048 custom options, unless they add a full color saturation and hue slider to it, but then its harder to do and yes you would have issues with the painter not being able to mix/match the right paint. The idea would be to work on their already existing colors options they offer, and which they do already have hundred of stock photos, or at least enough source material in order to be able to match a a fake layer top for the mockup to a similar existing top they build several times before.

If you want a custom finish, then you wont have the option to see it. The builder is only for their "standard" range of finishes (the ones already in the calculator). In that way you wont have matching problems. 

Go to warmoth and try to build a custom Strat to see the point of it.

The idea is for a customer to see how a color top would look like, with a burst?, burst in this shape?, how exalty this color/burst combo work in this guitar?, gold hardware?, different fretboard?, do I stain the burst and top to the bevel edges/binding?, or leave un-finish?, or same color as the burst?, how the back matches the top?. How about white pickups, how they would look like?

being able to see those specs after you select them would give you a better peace of mind and confidence to buy. Plus it helps having you visitng the site for every little idea you have, it keeps you on a constant GAS state in their site until one day you click the right combo of specs and you cant handle anymore. Again this is a digitial mockup to see as an example. People should know it wont be a 100% exact representation of what they are getting due to differences in tops


and sorry but they do are an assembly line employee factory. Reason why they can turn around so quick and why custom features/finishes/options cost more as it takes the guitar out of their process. Each employee has one job, which gives them the chance to become reaaaaaly good/quick and that one job. Nothing wrong with it, gives more jobs opportunities, faster completion time, and every other mayor factory in the USA and Asia does the same, this doesnt meant the cant be pride of their job, they def are.


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## Hollowway

diagrammatiks said:


> I think custom versus semi-custom is just an issue of semantics now in terms of guitars.
> Suhr and anderson aren't really custom shops but people call them custom builds.
> Diesel won't build you anything you want and those other shops really won't either.



Yeah, that's true. I think some people mean "Made for me" when they mean custom. I'm not sure how it is in other industries, but if I got a new Honda, and went to the dealership and picked out the options for the car, and then told people I just pulled the trigger on a custom car, I think they would have a Foose or hotrod or something pictured. But in other areas it's grayer - in men's suits, made-to-measure is like Kiesel, and bespoke is like a true custom. But people use bespoke left and right, and they really mean made-to-measure.

For me, I draw the line between what Kiesel does, and a real custom shop, because there are things I would like that they won't do: Floyds on 8 strings, semihollow 8 strings, 9, 10 strings, etc. But, that's not to say that Kiesel doesn't make stuff I want, so I've purchased those things, too. Generally speaking, my philosophy is to start at production instruments, and if you can't find what you need there, then go to semi-custom, and if you can't find what you need there, go to full custom. Because each of those jumps has a level of risk you're assuming. Having been burned at levels 2 and 3 a number of times (and being out thousands of dollars), I try really hard to find what I want in areas of lower risk. That's why I've been such a vocal contributor of this thread: Kiesel has the opportunity to corner the market here, but they keep dropping the ball with these things, and adding in risk for the customer unnecessarily. Jeff is a classic example of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.


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## diagrammatiks

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that's true. I think some people mean "Made for me" when they mean custom. I'm not sure how it is in other industries, but if I got a new Honda, and went to the dealership and picked out the options for the car, and then told people I just pulled the trigger on a custom car, I think they would have a Foose or hotrod or something pictured. But in other areas it's grayer - in men's suits, made-to-measure is like Kiesel, and bespoke is like a true custom. But people use bespoke left and right, and they really mean made-to-measure.
> 
> For me, I draw the line between what Kiesel does, and a real custom shop, because there are things I would like that they won't do: Floyds on 8 strings, semihollow 8 strings, 9, 10 strings, etc. But, that's not to say that Kiesel doesn't make stuff I want, so I've purchased those things, too. Generally speaking, my philosophy is to start at production instruments, and if you can't find what you need there, then go to semi-custom, and if you can't find what you need there, go to full custom. Because each of those jumps has a level of risk you're assuming. Having been burned at levels 2 and 3 a number of times (and being out thousands of dollars), I try really hard to find what I want in areas of lower risk. That's why I've been such a vocal contributor of this thread: Kiesel has the opportunity to corner the market here, but they keep dropping the ball with these things, and adding in risk for the customer unnecessarily. Jeff is a classic example of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.



I feel like they did have the market cornered with their old company direction...they were known for making affordable workhorse instruments with some fancy options if you really wanted them.
Their guitars are priced like luxury sports car. Sure they can advertise that their starting price is really low but they aren't cheap with any sort of realistic options.


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## Andromalia

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that's true. I think some people mean "Made for me" when they mean custom. I'm not sure how it is in other industries, but if I got a new Honda, and went to the dealership and picked out the options for the car, and then told people I just pulled the trigger on a custom car, I think they would have a Foose or hotrod or something pictured. But in other areas it's grayer - in men's suits, made-to-measure is like Kiesel, and bespoke is like a true custom. But people use bespoke left and right, and they really mean made-to-measure.
> 
> For me, I draw the line between what Kiesel does, and a real custom shop, because there are things I would like that they won't do: Floyds on 8 strings, semihollow 8 strings, 9, 10 strings, etc. But, that's not to say that Kiesel doesn't make stuff I want, so I've purchased those things, too. Generally speaking, my philosophy is to start at production instruments, and if you can't find what you need there, then go to semi-custom, and if you can't find what you need there, go to full custom. Because each of those jumps has a level of risk you're assuming. Having been burned at levels 2 and 3 a number of times (and being out thousands of dollars), I try really hard to find what I want in areas of lower risk. That's why I've been such a vocal contributor of this thread: Kiesel has the opportunity to corner the market here, but they keep dropping the ball with these things, and adding in risk for the customer unnecessarily. Jeff is a classic example of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.



To be honest, most manufacturer offer custom options on an existing model line. Plus, if you design a shape and have a dude build it, you have no guarantee the shape you designed is actually good/efficient/comfortable.


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## spudmunkey

Note: the following aren't defenses of these two points, or arguing somehow that Kiesel is "fully custom"...they aren't. They are a pizza place capable of making a great pizza with a menu of toppings...just don't go in expecting them to make you Mu Shu Pork out of their pizza ingredients. Just adding to the conversation on these two points:



Hollowway said:


> For me, I draw the line between what Kiesel does, and a real custom shop, because there are things I would like that they won't do: Floyds on 8 strings,



I know a full-on made-from scratch guitar builder could make you a wider neck, but the Floyd 8-string uses a wider string spacing than the Hipshot bridge they use, so to make sure it felt the same as their standards should demand, they would need to have an entirely new neck geometry designed for guitars with that specific bridge. Again, absolutely something a soup-to-nuts custom shop would do, but for *any* custom shop that starts with standard customize able models will not be likely to offer different nut or bridge *widths* simply due to all the other changes that go along with it...so at least they aren't out-of-line with most of their contemporaries....but you're absolutely right: not fully custom. But then again, I had an Ibanez guitar that had a "custom shop" inlay at the 12th fret of the fretboard. I bought it off the rack in a store that had 4 identical guitars hanging next to it. Ha!



> semihollow 8 strings



The new crescent 8-string can at least come in a chambered version that has large-enough chambers that they can offer a "F-hole" of sorts. No final design has been shown yet, but it's available at least, and that's a first step.


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## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I know a full-on made-from scratch guitar builder could make you a wider neck, but the Floyd 8-string uses a wider string spacing than the Hipshot bridge they use, so to make sure it felt the same as their standards should demand, they would need to have an entirely new neck geometry designed for guitars with that specific bridge. Again, absolutely something a soup-to-nuts custom shop would do, but for *any* custom shop that starts with standard customize able models will not be likely to offer different nut or bridge *widths* simply due to all the other changes that go along with it...so at least they aren't out-of-line with most of their contemporaries....but you're absolutely right: not fully custom. But then again, I had an Ibanez guitar that had a "custom shop" inlay at the 12th fret of the fretboard. I bought it off the rack in a store that had 4 identical guitars hanging next to it. Ha!
> 
> The new crescent 8-string can at least come in a chambered version that has large-enough chambers that they can offer a "F-hole" of sorts. No final design has been shown yet, but it's available at least, and that's a first step.



That's a really good point about the Floyd. I didn't think of that, but I bet that's why we don't see it from other companies either.

And I didn't even know about the new Crescent shape until I saw the 7 string version in the GIS section. I'm gonna be keeping my eye on that one. It'll be interesting to see if that develops into a cool semi-hollowish build.


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## unheard

I wish I had read the OP's post before wasting 3+ hours looking at Kiesel stuff, videos, and playing with CS3/CS6 configurations. I searched for opinions on Kiesel and saw this thread alluded to elsewhere, before finally finding and reading it.

Taking parts off customer-owned guitars? Wow. I want no part of a company like that. I'm disappointed because I prefer the CS3 over the PRS S2 Singlecut. So Kiesel if you're listening (doubt it), yes, in 2017/2018 there's this thing called "the internets" and it's rrreally good at letting people share experiences like this, and I can say for sure that in this case, it cost you business.


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## laxu

A-Branger said:


> to reproduce their options is not that hard, specially when they already have hundreds of pro shots with different materials. AS long as you have one photo of a guitar with lets say a flame mapple fretboard, then you already have a layer of a fretboard that would apply to every guitar in the builder.
> 
> I have been doing lots of guitar mockups in photoshop for some guys using real photos and the work required to have the layers is really not much if you have a good source material like Kiesel does. As long as every photo is on the same front full body angle, then its a matter to mask out stuff. If not you dont even need a guitar witha new top. Just have a stock photo of a wood top to add as layers.
> 
> They can ahve a general builder with the color options they have in their calculator. To have a top layer for each color combo is not really that hard, considering stuff as burst which would get saved as an independent layer to apply instead of saving a new body shot each time.
> 
> IT would take some days?, weeks maybe?, not really or at all. MAybe one good week of work to have every option as a layer on one model guitar. Then when you repeat the process for a new shape, you already have 50% of the work done as stuff like hardware and fretboard and headstocks are shared. The more work consuming part would come with the coding require to create the builder?... donno I have no knoledge of websites and how to build something like that, but being a 2D image where you turn on/off layers according to their calculator menu, it shouldnt be too hard



I'm a web developer and can tell you this is not a trivial task at all. First off they have a ton of options in their current builder already and you need to account for all of those for every model, which might have different scale lengths, fretboard widths and so on. While you may use and scale the same source images for things like different woods, there is still a lot of options to take care of and then you need layers for things like the finish options and have a way of changing their color. 

It's not a mystery why most guitar builders in the past have been Flash-based as it is easier to do things like masks etc in it since it comes with a lot of built-in functionality. Well, Flash is a dead technology and doesn't work on mobile so it would have to be based on HTML5 Canvas which is a lot more low level to program. Alternatively if they want to go very modern they could go 3D with WebGL on canvas, which again ups the difficulty but they probably have the CAD models of their guitars already so those could be used here. Still a lot of work to map textures on them.

But what is the most difficult is the software to *manage* the builder. If Kiesel brings out a new model, new options or just a sale, ideally the programmer of the software would not have to make changes to accommodate this and instead a Kiesel employee can just add it from a UI. This is usually the more expensive and difficult part to build as it needs to be easy to use, versatile and above all able to handle user error without breaking. Alternatively they have a programmer who is able to add the needed things on a fast schedule which means the programmer is able to be scheduled for these updates or works on it full or part time depending on if she's a freelancer or a consultant for a webdev company.

I would say the main reason why they don't have one or only have one in development is cost. It's expensive to have competent web developers working on a software like that.


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## A-Branger

yeh I know it would be a time comsuming thing to do for a web developer. But it can be done. Not every single feature or new finish can be there, it can be jsut the most popular options, basic stuff. Or stuff like only showing X model with HH configuration only. But it can be done. See warmoth. Go and build a custom strat body to see their process (not sure if they have done the virtual builder to the rest of the models yet). When you select a color dye or burst you can see the layering process and blending they do like on photoshop, that so you can keep the same figured top accross the whole range of finishes, instead of that you can have a single real photo/layer for each finish. Instead to code to turn on W, and X and Y and Z .png layers in certain order, you can code turn off X turn on Y

its time comsuming I know, but it can be done. Like you say, it might be a matter of money and time. But I still believe it could be a great tool for them.


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## MatiasTolkki

Just a quick point, because reasons:

Kiesel wiped out most of their pickup line, making the customer have to choose between garbage in the lithiums or pickups that don't fit their needs at all. They are only a "semi-custom" shop in name, the only options they offer now are fancy exotic woods. Let's also remember that putting in another company's pickups makes the guitar non-returnable. That's crap and Jeff is a goddammit idiot for thinking he knows what he's doing.


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## TedEH

A-Branger said:


> its time comsuming I know, but it can be done.



Can be done doesn't mean it's worth it. Time consuming means expensive.

I also do a significant amount of web dev - and often in similar ways to what you're describing. I think you're wildly underestimating the complexity and time requirements involved. You're right that it can be done - you can do just about anything in a browser at this point, but this would take several months for several people working full time, which would likely cost a lot more than it's worth compared to just maintaining the existing builder.


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## Petar Bogdanov

People underestimate what it takes to get custom software made. Even if you're having a custom software company do it, it will still take several hours each day, from your most valuable person, for consulting. The task is fairly high tech too, which brings a fair amount of risk. Meaning, you might spend a few hundred grand, yet still not _quite_ achieve what you needed. 

Now, Kiesel can afford a few hundred grand, but they can't afford losing so much Jeff time, just as he is restructuring the brand. Even if they could, that risk is no joke.


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## xzacx

I've always thought the lack of investment in a builder was a short-sighted decision. Sure, it will take a lot of time and money, but in theory, would drive increased sales in the long run.

The more I consider it though, I wonder if it's actually a zero sum game? For every additional order they get from someone who was able to see how it'd look, I wonder how many they'd lose from people realizing their chosen specs are terrible together? I have to think it would cost them some sales, as well as extra options.


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## bostjan

xzacx said:


> I've always thought the lack of customer service in a builder was a short-sighted decision. Sure, it will take a lot of time and money, but in theory, would drive increased sales in the long run.
> 
> The more I consider it though, I wonder if it's actually a zero sum game? For every additional order they get from someone who was able to see how it'd turn out if they ordered one, I wonder how many they'd lose from people realizing their claims about their designs are terrible together? I have to think it would cost them some sales, as well as extra returns.



FTFY


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## TedEH




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## KnightBrolaire

xzacx said:


> I've always thought the lack of investment in a builder was a short-sighted decision. Sure, it will take a lot of time and money, but in theory, would drive increased sales in the long run.
> 
> The more I consider it though, I wonder if it's actually a zero sum game? For every additional order they get from someone who was able to see how it'd look, I wonder how many they'd lose from people realizing their chosen specs are terrible together? I have to think it would cost them some sales, as well as extra options.


When in doubt, assume everyone has terrible taste until proven otherwise. That's why some of those godawful wood combos/color combos exist. I'd like to hope that people don't actively go: "hmm I'd like a shitty grey ash body with walnut/purpleheart neck and a flamed maple top that looks like it's been circlejerked onto before being clear coated" but sadly I know there's people out there with precisely that shitty of taste since there's photographic evidence of their shit taste. It's like PRS' zombie finishes, I think those are on par with kiesel's bukkake burst/cotton candy/vomit burst as some of the most ill conceived finishes ever. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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## MatiasTolkki

bukkake burst lol


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## A-Branger

to be fair chances are those weird finishes are the 1% of what they do, its because its sooooo different and weird/unique that it gets a lot of attention, either from them showing it, or us talking about it. I ahve seen their post in facebook with "builds of the week" or something like that, and there are quite a few cool looking options on color/hardware/woods goes. Even some that made me think "uh, that actually looks pretty cool, never though about putting those pups with that top and those rings"


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## laxu

xzacx said:


> I've always thought the lack of investment in a builder was a short-sighted decision. Sure, it will take a lot of time and money, but in theory, would drive increased sales in the long run.
> 
> The more I consider it though, I wonder if it's actually a zero sum game? For every additional order they get from someone who was able to see how it'd look, I wonder how many they'd lose from people realizing their chosen specs are terrible together? I have to think it would cost them some sales, as well as extra options.



If you look at Kiesel's standard colors only maybe the lizardburst is way out there. With the other finishes you have to work fairly hard to come up with something truly ugly.


----------



## marcwormjim

Is that test limited to Carvin designs, only?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

A-Branger said:


> to be fair chances are those weird finishes are the 1% of what they do, its because its sooooo different and weird/unique that it gets a lot of attention, either from them showing it, or us talking about it. I ahve seen their post in facebook with "builds of the week" or something like that, and there are quite a few cool looking options on color/hardware/woods goes. Even some that made me think "uh, that actually looks pretty cool, never though about putting those pups with that top and those rings"



the problem is that they keep pushing expensive woods or raw tone, hardly ever simple stuff, or their V or X lines. Jeff claims he likes those bodies but never promotes them. it's ALWAYS the stuff HE designed.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

marcwormjim said:


> Is that test limited to Carvin designs, only?



looks like someone wiped their asses on that wood.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

laxu said:


> If you look at Kiesel's standard colors only maybe the lizardburst is way out there. With the other finishes you have to work fairly hard to come up with something truly ugly.


i look at their guitars that they post every day and lately there's maybe one ugly one out of the 5 or 6 they post. It's almost like people aren't ordering the gaudiest crap imaginable, and then I see this:


----------



## cwhitey2

KnightBrolaire said:


> i look at their guitars that they post every day and lately there's maybe one ugly one out of the 5 or 6 they post. It's almost like people aren't ordering the gaudiest crap imaginable, and then I see this:




That actually hurts my eyes...seriously though...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cwhitey2 said:


> That actually hurts my eyes...seriously though...



I have a new Ibanez RG550 Road flare red and that doesn't even come CLOSE to making my eyes hurt as much as that monstrosity. YUCK.


----------



## Gravy Train

I like it...


----------



## cwhitey2

Gravy Train said:


> I like it...


----------



## Gravy Train

cwhitey2 said:


>



I think it's so ugly it's kind of cool, but to each his own


----------



## cwhitey2

Gravy Train said:


> I think it's so ugly it's kind of cool, but to each his own


It is cool, but it also makes me want to puke!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cwhitey2 said:


> It is cool, but it also makes me want to puke!



If it was JUST pink, I could dig it. Those ugly fake LNG pickups and burst just look so off. I wouldn't even wipe my ass with that guitar.


----------



## laxu

That is quite something. It's probably even a special finish the buyer paid extra... I have to wonder if he or she is color blind.


----------



## Spicypickles

MatiasTolkki said:


> If it was JUST pink, I could dig it. Those ugly fake LNG pickups and burst just look so off. I wouldn't even wipe my ass with that guitar.



Well hell I wouldn't wipe with it either. Paper has been doing fine for a long time.


----------



## noise in my mind

It looks like a guitar for a barbie toy.


----------



## Zado

KnightBrolaire said:


> i look at their guitars that they post every day and lately there's maybe one ugly one out of the 5 or 6 they post. It's almost like people aren't ordering the gaudiest crap imaginable, and then I see this:


----------



## pondman

I sprayed a sample neon pink and green burst and nearly puked when I saw the "neon brown" transition between the two colours  I frantically fumbled for my sander to kill the damned thing  
Its hilarious to see someone actually went through with it


----------



## KnightBrolaire

it looks like a radioactive watermelon. Aviator also did a watermelon finish this year, but it actually look good.


----------



## stevexc




----------



## Gravy Train

KnightBrolaire said:


> it looks like a radioactive watermelon. Aviator also did a watermelon finish this year, but it actually look good.



My god that is amazing.


----------



## Alberto7

There's just something off about most of their bursts that I see from them recently... it almost looks like a decal that they just paste onto the damn thing. There's close to zero fade to the burst, and the burst finishes in a solid color, which looks off. It makes it seem like there was little artistry in the process.

Following their Instagram page, I'm often surprised/horrified at what people come up with. Even worse is them pushing it as wonderful and/or as one of their "favorites." Either they have an army of social media reps, or the dude has a different favorite of the day/week every time.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with liking things I find aesthetically displeasing and/or tacky, but it just solidifies their company image to me as that of a tacky-ass brand.

Some color and option schemes they post are actually awesome though, but then I look at the design of the guitar itself and.... well, it loses much of its appeal. Not my cup of tea. However, a few exceptions do exist, though they're few and far between.

Too bad they don't showcase some of their older models as much. I'd LOVE to see some more of those classy DC models.


----------



## marcwormjim

This is drudging up the past, but the best example of their stencil-“bursts” and Jeff’s color-blindness, as well as the post-Carvin trajectory of the brand that contributed to all Kiesel associates being banned from this site, is this thread:


http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...omatch-gone-wrong-final-update-5-3-16.309923/


----------



## Mathemagician

Oh man, I didn’t know these were two separate threads. Wow. Lmao.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Mathemagician said:


> Oh man, I didn’t know these were two separate threads. Wow. Lmao.



Kiesel bashing is welcome everywhere it seems LOL

Hell I didn't start turning away from them till they started discontinuing stuff, then the way they started treating fans who were loyal for decades, after the split... Then my V220's issues, and finally Jeff's anti-Japan bashing REALLY pissed me off. The final straw was the 22 pole piece debacle and how rude that SOB was to people who love those pups (I still love those pups btw).


----------



## diagrammatiks

I still kinda want a crescent and a solo and a couple of vaders tho.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> I still kinda want a crescent and a solo and a couple of vaders tho.



Just buy an Ibanez RG550 reissue coming out after NAMM. You'll be MUCH happier.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> Just buy an Ibanez RG550 reissue coming out after NAMM. You'll be MUCH happier.



I mean I literally already had the first road flare series they made. Feels bad to have just sold it and then spending more for a new one.

Not enough bevels and multi scales. 

goddamit ibanez. if you made a multi scale S series in road flare i'll buy 10 right now.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean I literally already had the first road flare series they made. Feels bad to have just sold it and then spending more for a new one.
> 
> Not enough bevels and multi scales.
> 
> goddamit ibanez. if you made a multi scale S series in road flare i'll buy 10 right now.



the new ones are better. I've got an 89 RG750VP (and 91 RG5000) and while that guitar is absolutely incredible, my new RFR 550 from this new run just smokes it.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

diagrammatiks said:


> I still kinda want a crescent and a solo and a couple of vaders tho.


I'm legit considering getting a solo in road flare red. I'm sure kiesel would try and charge me an arm and a leg for the finish/make it non-returnable but dammit it'd be worth it to have an rfr 8 string.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> the new ones are better. I've got an 89 RG750VP (and 91 RG5000) and while that guitar is absolutely incredible, my new RFR 550 from this new run just smokes it.



Oh i have no doubt that the new ones are better...especially since my 87 had 30 years of fret wear and gunk. Still very good condition but a new one is worth it i'm sure. 



KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm legit considering getting a solo in road flare red. I'm sure kiesel would try and charge me an arm and a leg for the finish/make it non-returnable but dammit it'd be worth it to have an rfr 8 string.



I feel like the color under that watermelon burst is really close.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm legit considering getting a solo in road flare red. I'm sure kiesel would try and charge me an arm and a leg for the finish/make it non-returnable but dammit it'd be worth it to have an rfr 8 string.



Or do what Ben Eller did. He got an MIJ 7620, stripped it and had it painted in RFR. You could find an MIJ 8 string Ibanez (RG2228?), strip down the paint and repaint RFR. Better than going through kiesel.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> Oh i have no doubt that the new ones are better...especially since my 87 had 30 years of fret wear and gunk. Still very good condition but a new one is worth it i'm sure.
> 
> I feel like the color under that watermelon burst is really close.



It's my new number one, that's how good it is


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> Or do what Ben Eller did. He got an MIJ 7620, stripped it and had it painted in RFR. You could find an MIJ 8 string Ibanez (RG2228?), strip down the paint and repaint RFR. Better than going through kiesel.


I do have an RG8 neck sitting around, guess I could make a tele body for it and paint it. hmm...


diagrammatiks said:


> I feel like the color under that watermelon burst is really close.


nah looks too pinkish. I know they can do fluorescents since I saw a fluorescent orange aries on reverb.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov

diagrammatiks said:


> goddamit ibanez. if you made a multi scale S series in road flare i'll buy 10 right now.



And you would be the only one, after everyone else finds out what it costs.


----------



## technomancer

diagrammatiks said:


> I still kinda want a crescent and a solo and a couple of vaders tho.



Honestly the Vader I had IIRC earlier this year was a solid guitar I only returned it because I thought the McLaren yellow would look better in gloss than the flat the one I grabbed had. The only reason I didn't buy the dark red Vader trem they just had in stock is I really can't stand the thought of giving Jeff money... and the fact that you never know if the in-stocks are a return or an actual in stock guitar... and the crap of always listing everything on the in-stock page like it is discounted when the guitars are actually normal price.

Aaaand after posting this I feel better about not buying it 

I still do GAS for a Vader and a Becker Numbers. I've considered the white and yellow Numbers they have in stock but 9lbs is too heavy for a swamp ash superstrat...

As is obvious I get highly conflicted about Kiesel as I do like a couple of their designs but the track record of horrible customer service and general douchiness really puts me off actually sending them my money.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> I do have an RG8 neck sitting around, guess I could make a tele body for it and paint it. hmm...



So I'll talk you out of going through Kiesel, because I feel it's my duty 

I ordered my JB200 when they were still carvin and had to go through a dealer over here in Japan. The dealer didn't know jack about the system and I had to get the help of Mike and Chris on the US side to be able to get everything down pat. My JB200 came almost perfect out of the box. A little paint got gooped in the OFR cavity, but an easy enough fix and after that, it has served me well.

Fast forward to 13 months ago. I had ordered my 2nd guitar through them, first time after the name change to Kiesel. I ordered a V220, a model that they don't make many of, so I had some concerns that the people there wouldn't know what they were doing. My fears were realized when the guitar arrived:

1. They didn't tape off the neck properly so you can see white primer sticking out a little past where the KRO is. They either didn't sand it down properly or didn't paint all the way to the edge of the primer (NOT an issue my JB200 had btw).
2. There was paint missing in the corners of the trem cavity, look close enough and you see primer there. Again, my JB200 had a VERY different (and MINIOR) issue that was easily solved, this time it's basically impossible to solve since KRO is a very unique kinda orange so even if they mix it again, it won't come out the same. 

If they allow their painters to be THAT damn lazy to let that slide through QC, I wouldn't trust them to do RFR properly. I know they had one of their endorsers order RFR through them but it was definitely NOT the same as the Ibanez RFR used on the original 87s, 20ths, Genesis collections, or even the new 2018 reissues.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Forgot to add one more thing:

The input jacks they supplied are garbage. They pride themselves on their quality, but the jack on my v220 has been garbage since the very beginning. Needs to be replaced.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

I'm still super on the fence with them too. There are a few guitars of theirs that I do want, and the two I own are great instruments, but every time I get close to pulling the trigger I remember how much of a knob Jeff tends to be and I stop thinking about it.

That "aqua burst" on page 53 is actually very nice looking to me. Not even sure if it IS aqua burst, but if very much reminds me of that piss poor attempt at the color matching which WAS aquaburst. lol (the one in the linked thread.)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Señor Voorhees said:


> I'm still super on the fence with them too. There are a few guitars of theirs that I do want, and the two I own are great instruments, but every time I get close to pulling the trigger I remember how much of a knob Jeff tends to be and I stop thinking about it.
> 
> That "aqua burst" on page 53 is actually very nice looking to me. Not even sure if it IS aqua burst, but if very much reminds me of that piss poor attempt at the color matching which WAS aquaburst. lol (the one in the linked thread.)



Jeff is more than a knob imo. He's a liar and basically a closet racist imo. He spent the entire first two years+ of his Q&A bashing "Asian" made guitars, treating even the likes of Ibanez like second class makers. Sorry bud, Ibanez revolutionized guitar playing in so many ways, yet you diss them and any solid Japanese guitar maker by lumping them in with "budget" guitars? Oh HELL no. I was exclusively Ibanez until I got my JB200, and while I was unhappy with a lot of Ibanez's offerings, they remedied that with stuff like the Genesis collection and the RG3770DXs (and now the 550 reissues). 

Then he starts saying that he loves Japanese stuff and that he drives a Toyota Tundra. Ummm tool, even if the name says Toyota on it, it's NOT made in Japan. It's made in factories in places like Kentucky, so it's technically made in the USA. 

So yeah, I've had a REALLY hard time justifying playing my Carvin and Kiesel out in public with the way he bashes Japan like that.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> So I'll talk you out of going through Kiesel, because I feel it's my duty
> 
> I ordered my JB200 when they were still carvin and had to go through a dealer over here in Japan. The dealer didn't know jack about the system and I had to get the help of Mike and Chris on the US side to be able to get everything down pat. My JB200 came almost perfect out of the box. A little paint got gooped in the OFR cavity, but an easy enough fix and after that, it has served me well.
> 
> Fast forward to 13 months ago. I had ordered my 2nd guitar through them, first time after the name change to Kiesel. I ordered a V220, a model that they don't make many of, so I had some concerns that the people there wouldn't know what they were doing. My fears were realized when the guitar arrived:
> 
> 1. They didn't tape off the neck properly so you can see white primer sticking out a little past where the KRO is. They either didn't sand it down properly or didn't paint all the way to the edge of the primer (NOT an issue my JB200 had btw).
> 2. There was paint missing in the corners of the trem cavity, look close enough and you see primer there. Again, my JB200 had a VERY different (and MINIOR) issue that was easily solved, this time it's basically impossible to solve since KRO is a very unique kinda orange so even if they mix it again, it won't come out the same.
> 
> If they allow their painters to be THAT damn lazy to let that slide through QC, I wouldn't trust them to do RFR properly. I know they had one of their endorsers order RFR through them but it was definitely NOT the same as the Ibanez RFR used on the original 87s, 20ths, Genesis collections, or even the new 2018 reissues.


I already have 3 kiesels (a dc600 and 2 VM8s) so I know that when they're on top of stuff they make excellent guitars. I haven't been cruising the kiesel forum lately but they seem to be delivering good guitars with no fuck ups anymore (or at least they're actually resolving said fuck ups).  I'm still just thinking about the solo 8 right now since I just got a couple of guitars and can't really justify dropping a couple of grand on another one lol.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> I already have 3 kiesels (a dc600 and 2 VM8s) so I know that when they're on top of stuff they make excellent guitars. I haven't been cruising the kiesel forum lately but they seem to be delivering good guitars with no fuck ups anymore (or at least they're actually resolving said fuck ups).  I'm still just thinking about the solo 8 right now since I just got a couple of guitars and can't really justify dropping a couple of grand on another one lol.



well I got banned because I went after Jeff HARD for his discontinuation of the 22 pole piece pups. they also deleted ALL threads pertaining to Carvin Audio, even the ones in Other gear. Sounds like they are trying to silence everything that has nothing to do with them, or the name Carvin. Also, Jeff going on his livestream saying he hasn't heard of people complaining about the 22 pole piece pups being wiped out, yet there was a 20+ page thread on the forums (now deleted) with a lot of people talking about it. So yeah, be glad you dont have the money to give to him, I know I won't even again. Next custom guitar i'm ordering is either going to be Ruokangas or ESP.


----------



## Zado

MatiasTolkki said:


> Jeff is more than a knob imo. He's a liar and basically a closet racist imo. He spent the entire first two years+ of his Q&A bashing "Asian" made guitars, treating even the likes of Ibanez like second class makers. Sorry bud, Ibanez revolutionized guitar playing in so many ways, yet you diss them and any solid Japanese guitar maker by lumping them in with "budget" guitars? Oh HELL no. I was exclusively Ibanez until I got my JB200, and while I was unhappy with a lot of Ibanez's offerings, they remedied that with stuff like the Genesis collection and the RG3770DXs (and now the 550 reissues).
> 
> Then he starts saying that he loves Japanese stuff and that he drives a Toyota Tundra. Ummm tool, even if the name says Toyota on it, it's NOT made in Japan. It's made in factories in places like Kentucky, so it's technically made in the USA.
> 
> So yeah, I've had a REALLY hard time justifying playing my Carvin and Kiesel out in public with the way he bashes Japan like that.


Lol really?  he sure is a joke


----------



## cip 123

I get really upset about this. The way he treats this company is terrible, I found them through Jason Becker, when they were Carvin and pined after one for years till I got one.

I still want a numbers, but have no intention of buying from Kiesel, which sucks cause it's one of my Idols guitars and it helps him out financially. It's the only consolation I have about Kiesel I've never seen or heard of a bad JB guitar at least. 

I'd rather have a far eastern sig JB than give money to Jeff.


----------



## Science_Penguin

KnightBrolaire said:


> i look at their guitars that they post every day and lately there's maybe one ugly one out of the 5 or 6 they post. It's almost like people aren't ordering the gaudiest crap imaginable, and then I see this:



I kind of want to see what that looks like under a black light, but I fear I may go blind...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Zado said:


> Lol really?  he sure is a joke



Yeah it would be torture to go back and listen to all those Q&As but he said MULTIPLE times that "We're better than Asian guitars" or some variation over 2 + years. Every time I said that, I got super pissed.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

There's something I've been wondering for anyone who still owns a Kiesel or Carvin, and I'll probably get the most honest answers here:

So I got the same neck woods on both my JB200 and V220 (5 piece maple, mahogany stripes). My JB200, even when I got it way back when I did, when the consumption tax in Japan was at 5% (it's currently 8 and will go up to 10 next year) cost considerably more than my V220. It has perfect grains in the mahogany, no streaking or anything. However, my V220, being that I got it pre-cost increase cost a LOT less than the JB200 (solid color, very basic options), however, the grain in the mahogany has some white discoloration near the neck joint. 

Now what I wonder is, has anyone gotten a "more expensive" model that came out with amazing wood grains, and a cheaper, simple build with less than stellar wood grains? I'm wondering this because I wonder if Kiesel is purposely saving it's really nice wood for expensive builds, and those of us who want something simple get shafted.


----------



## Zado

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah it would be torture to go back and listen to all those Q&As but he said MULTIPLE times that "We're better than Asian guitars" or some variation over 2 + years. Every time I said that, I got super pissed.


Damn, it's crazy a guy like this, in the internet era, is still running a guitar businness


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Zado said:


> Damn, it's crazy a guy like this, in the internet era, is still running a guitar businness



Dude, it's about respect. The president of ESP and Hoshino Gakki don't talk trash about other countries' products. The president of Fujigen doesn't say anything. It's about mutual respect, and when the face of your company is an asshole, it damages the rep of the brand.


----------



## technomancer

MatiasTolkki said:


> Dude, it's about respect. The president of ESP and Hoshino Gakki don't talk trash about other countries' products. The president of Fujigen doesn't say anything. It's about mutual respect, and when the face of your company is an asshole, it damages the rep of the brand.



While I can't disagree, this isn't anything specific about Japan. Using Japan just saved him saying Ibanez, ESP etc etc. He's taken shots at numerous US companies and builders as well, it's us vs them cult-style marketing. Jeff tries to brand himself and the company as underdogs building superior products while everybody else is out to get him and sucks. It's his schtick and sadly it seems like the younger audience in their teens and twenties eats it up.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> While I can't disagree, this isn't anything specific about Japan. Using Japan just saved him saying Ibanez, ESP etc etc. He's taken shots at numerous US companies and builders as well, it's us vs them cult-style marketing. Jeff tries to brand himself and the company as underdogs building superior products while everybody else is out to get him and sucks. It's his schtick and sadly it seems like the younger audience in their teens and twenties eats it up.



That's very true. I just found that his "Us vs them" attitude started with him bashing "Asian" guitars. I think it's just gotten worse over time.


----------



## Science_Penguin

technomancer said:


> While I can't disagree, this isn't anything specific about Japan. Using Japan just saved him saying Ibanez, ESP etc etc. He's taken shots at numerous US companies and builders as well, it's us vs them cult-style marketing. Jeff tries to brand himself and the company as underdogs building superior products while everybody else is out to get him and sucks. It's his schtick and sadly it seems like the younger audience in their teens and twenties eats it up.



Well, give the guy credit, he certainly understands one thing about his consumers- people love to pick a brand and talk about how superior they are for picking said brand. Young guitarists in particular seem to have this idea in their heads that you want to be staunchly loyal to certain brands, either because they don't seem to realise that Famous Guitarist X talks up Brand Y so much cause he has an endorsement deal, or they're hoping that they might score a deal themselves if they get an early start.

If you're not gonna deliver on quality, use sleazy marketing strategies...


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

MatiasTolkki said:


> Dude, it's about respect. The president of ESP and Hoshino Gakki don't talk trash about other countries' products. The president of Fujigen doesn't say anything. It's about mutual respect, and when the face of your company is an asshole, it damages the rep of the brand.



This.

I don't have a dog in this fight but between this and the QC issues I have seen online I will never order a Kiesel.

Maybe if I came across one used that I got to play up front and really dug but I would never order a new guitar from them. I know other builders who have much better support and who are much more deserving IMO that I would rather give my money to.


----------



## davedeath

technomancer said:


> While I can't disagree, this isn't anything specific about Japan. Using Japan just saved him saying Ibanez, ESP etc etc. He's taken shots at numerous US companies and builders as well, it's us vs them cult-style marketing. Jeff tries to brand himself and the company as underdogs building superior products while everybody else is out to get him and sucks. It's his schtick and sadly it seems like the younger audience in their teens and twenties eats it up.


He's definitely mentioned ibanez by name a few times, especially in the earlier live streams.


----------



## technomancer

davedeath said:


> He's definitely mentioned ibanez by name a few times, especially in the earlier live streams.



The point was he's taking shots at everyone not just the Japanese


----------



## marcwormjim

I find anything nice he has to say about Carvin after dismantling it to be far more offensive than his troll comments.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

marcwormjim said:


> I find anything nice he has to say about Carvin after dismantling it to be far more offensive than his troll comments.



That's a really good point. After all that trash he talked about Carvin audio after the split, that was insulting to both Carson and Gavin. He's such a pompous ass.


----------



## will_shred

I'm just gonna come out and say it. Every Carvin I played was an awesome guitar, I have yet to get my hands on any of the new Kiesels, but if the quality is the same I'm sure they're good guitars. I'm just saying, there's a good reason they have been as successful as they've been. I do hope that OP's issue was eventually taken care of, because that was just cringe worthy and no company would want to have that hanging over their head. The most of the Kiesels I've seen look awesome, and the number of people raving about the quality of the guitars is far more than the small handful of fuckups. Though I will say, every large company will probably fuck something up from time to time, and its in how they respond to it that makes them or breaks them (like the famous strictly7 meltdown) The sales rep OP was dealing with sounded like a total asshat, and should probably have been fired since this has been made public.

I would still order a Kiesel, and probably will at some point.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I have 2, one Carvin, one Kiesel. They are fine guitars, considering i got them cheaper than what they cost now, I'm happy with them. HOWEVER, giving that idiot Jeff any more money is just out of the question for me now. I like Chris, he's always been a good dude and helped me through a lot of orders. Mike has been a good guy to me too. I even ordered a couple pickups from Keith, and he was a really cool dude the little I've talked to him. THOSE are guys you support. Jeff can piss off. The sad thing is, to support them, you have to support Jeff and that is out of the question.


----------



## Hollowway

technomancer said:


> and the crap of always listing everything on the in-stock page like it is discounted when the guitars are actually normal price.



Yeah, that really irritated me when I first found that out, too. I've also wanted a Becker numbers guitar for ever, and when I saw it on the website with the "Save $200" thing on there I noticed that the price was exactly the same. So I called, and Mike told me that they are $1499 normally, but they price them up to $1699 on the in-stock page just so they can give you $200 off. I said, "Why would you do that? Why not just advertise it at the actual price, or give a discount from the actual price?" He said something about it needing to be on sale on that page, and that's just the way they do it. I asked again (on the phone) and he got really short and irritated with me. 
Disheartened, but not deterred, I saw one pop up on their Reverb page. I clicked on the "make offer" button, and offered $100 less than the $1499 it was listed for there. They responded and said that they don't sell them for less than $1499. So again, I'm confused why they would list it as a sale with a "make offer" option on it. The whole thing just seems shady. Which sucks, because those of us who are gear whores would likely own 3 or 4 Kiesels if we felt confident enough about the company. It's just so easy to buy one online. But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight with them over whether they have to honor a return policy.


----------



## technomancer

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that really irritated me when I first found that out, too. I've also wanted a Becker numbers guitar for ever, and when I saw it on the website with the "Save $200" thing on there I noticed that the price was exactly the same. So I called, and Mike told me that they are $1499 normally, but they price them up to $1699 on the in-stock page just so they can give you $200 off. I said, "Why would you do that? Why not just advertise it at the actual price, or give a discount from the actual price?" He said something about it needing to be on sale on that page, and that's just the way they do it. I asked again (on the phone) and he got really short and irritated with me.
> Disheartened, but not deterred, I saw one pop up on their Reverb page. I clicked on the "make offer" button, and offered $100 less than the $1499 it was listed for there. They responded and said that they don't sell them for less than $1499. So again, I'm confused why they would list it as a sale with a "make offer" option on it. The whole thing just seems shady. Which sucks, because those of us who are gear whores would likely own 3 or 4 Kiesels if we felt confident enough about the company. It's just so easy to buy one online. But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight with them over whether they have to honor a return policy.



The in-stock page actually skirts close to false advertising and is definitely shady... the reverb stuff I have absolutely no idea as it just seems dumb 

I think total I've owned 5 or 6 Carvins / Kiesels over time and came out about 50/50 being great or dogs / flawed. The last flat yellow Vader I had was really nice and I returned it intending to order one, but in the middle of that their media guy was a dickhead on here and the level of douchiness went through the ceiling with Jeff and I just walked away from the idea.

Got to admit I almost pulled the trigger on the blood red Vader trem that was on their in-stock page a couple days ago but just couldn't do it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> The in-stock page actually skirts close to false advertising and is definitely shady... the reverb stuff I have absolutely no idea as it just seems dumb
> 
> I think total I've owned 5 or 6 Carvins / Kiesels over time and came out about 50/50 being great or dogs / flawed. The last flat yellow Vader I had was really nice and I returned it intending to order one, but in the middle of that their media guy was a dickhead on here and the level of douchiness went through the ceiling with Jeff and I just walked away from the idea.
> 
> Got to admit I almost pulled the trigger on the blood red Vader trem that was on their in-stock page a couple days ago but just couldn't do it.



which media guy was a dick? Just curious.


----------



## technomancer

MatiasTolkki said:


> which media guy was a dick? Just curious.



He's since been fired and everybody knows who it was... He was actually running the Kiesel Guitars account on here. His handle on here and other places was engage something.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> He's since been fired and everybody knows who it was... He was actually running the Kiesel Guitars account on here. His handle on here and other places was engage something.



Ah okay. I never knew about him as I didn't even get my JB200 until 3 and a half years ago. 

Why are some companies so focused on quashing negative opinions though? Other big guitar makers are like "Yeah yeah whatever," but the places like Kiesel seem to be trying to hide a lot of stuff from the consumers so that they don't hear both sides of the story. Sounds like something an SJW would do :/


----------



## Mathemagician

^ ugh, leave the political opinions out of this thread. There’s specific threads for that toxicity. 

As for why smaller places like Kiesel would do it is simple: word of mouth affects them a LOT more than a larger brand. So they rely on it for advertising. 

When someone has a complaint they want you to go straight to them, so you can be told no privately and then be expected to just accept that. 

Because smaller businesses often are not in a place financially to offer returns to everyone who wants one. (A few slow months can throw off budgets, etc). 

It’s the same reason that blasting a company on Twitter tends to have immediate results. - too many eyes on bad news makes for a bad story.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I'm surprised people havent gone to twitter to air their greviences towards Kiesel and really shine a light on them. I know FB wouldn't work because the fanboy horde would drown you out. I know, I tried LOL After the 22 pole piece pickup thing got announced, Jeff said "I haven't heard anyone complaining about it" so I ratcheted up the rhetoric in favor of the pickups, just to prove him wrong  Got me banned off the message board, but it was soooo worth it


----------



## MetalHead40

A recently posted Kiesel complaint on another forum just reminded me of my horrible experience with this most unprofessional, immature, rude and downright dishonest company. It prompted me to check back on my Kiesel---Never Again! thread and its great this thing is still alive! I quit checking back in on this thread pretty early on because it just spun out of control and got so far off in the weeds, but it needs to stay alive so people considering buying a Kiesel have the information necessary to make informed decisions.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> A recently posted Kiesel complaint on another forum just reminded me of my horrible experience with this most unprofessional, immature, rude and downright dishonest company. It prompted me to check back on my Kiesel---Never Again! thread and its great this thing is still alive! I quit checking back in on this thread pretty early on because it just spun out of control and got so far off in the weeds, but it needs to stay alive so people considering buying a Kiesel have the information necessary to make informed decisions.



What was said on another forum about Kiesel? Just curious about the complaint that was posted.


----------



## MetalHead40

MatiasTolkki said:


> What was said on another forum about Kiesel? Just curious about the complaint that was posted.



Guy was complaining about being mislead and stiffed on his deposit basically. Just google "My Crappy Experience with Kiesel Guitars" and you can read the thread for yourself.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Man that story is pretty messed up. I never had a CS problem personally but, from my comments about my story here, you know I wont be going back. Hell, I barely even pick up my Carvin or Kiesel anymore. Been back to Ibanez, playing an AMAZING RG550RF that literally stands tall against both my Carvin and Kiesel, for a LOT less money. So yeah


----------



## spudmunkey

OK, so I wrote everything below this while sitting in a building lobby waiting for someone and it's a bit of a ramble, so it may come across as non-nonsensical, or at least scattered and out of order. With that disclaimer out of the way...enjoy! Ha!

The issue is that they insisted to handle everything on their runs through Facebook. Like many other runs/group buys, they insist on focusing on one group. In this case, Facebook followers. While *technically* they are probably legally safe *(I'm no lawyer, though, so I'm likely completely wrong) in terms of cancellation and changes because every mention of the run said to go to Facebook for details, which included those notes,* it was/is still a really shitty way to do it and undoubtedly caused your scenario.*

Each video and post about the run said to go to the Facebook Vanquish Run group which had stickied posts of available specs and the rules. In their non-run-related Q&A videos, whenever anyone asked a question about the run, they repeated over and over, 'Guys...all these questions on the run...go check the Vanquish Run Group post on Facebook. All of the information is there."

The trouble is they didn't seem to make sure that everyone who called in to place the order had actually reviewed the special rules for the run, which they should have since the had special terms that differed from their normal day-to-day terms. There were lots of people that just heard word-of-mouth about it, and the only way you knew about these rules were if you happened to get to the parts of the videos that mentioned it. So if you watched the first half of a video and got excited and called in, you may not have come across them or even known there were different rules.

The way they run the runs is very strange to me, but I've never been apart of any others so I don't know how they are done any differently. With kiesel, they advertise a run and direct you to a closed facebook page. Then you have to request to be a member of the FB group to see the information. But It's never up right away...so you have at least a little while where there's not much else but pictures. Then they finally post the specifics of it, spread across multiple posts because that's just how Facebook works. Then you're supposed to take the text from the Facebook post and copy and paste it somewhere else (or print it) to go through and select you options so that you are ready when you call in your order...but when you call in, you just tell them your name and number to secure your spot...then they call you back and you have to be ready with your details to order. And then, unless you ask for it specifically, you may not be sent anything before the order is processed (which, admittedly, is the same as their day-to-day operation).

It's a bizarre, convoluted process to me that leaves SO much potential for things to go wrong.

Here's the blurb on the front page of the special facebook group they created for the run, which you had to go to to get the spec list, as the group's description:


> This special limited run will allow you to get an amazing Kiesel Vanquish guitar or bass at huge savings, with 4 price points to choose from and starting as low as 1000.00. Run is open World-Wide and is limited to a max of 2 instruments per customer. 20% deposit is required for the first 3 price points and 50% for the final price point,* all sales are final and no order changes are allowed once order is placed. *



Yes, the only place they posted it it was Facebook, but since all information about the run was always on Facebook and the only way to know what was offered was to go tot he facebook group, they had a reasonable expectation that the people who called in to order and knew the available specs had visited the group where that blurb was posted.

Again, I'm not saying that's how they should have done it. Personally, they should have been, and should be, more diligent in getting their approvals. Their process is screwed up, and the systems in place don't help them provide the services they need to. Everything from their order entry, to their build code methodology fights against their ability to be accurate, and efficient.

The screw up of the $300/$600 deposit is pretty damn shitty, no doubt about it. My co-worker accidentally had her card run through for $214.68 instead of $24.68 by the cashier at a sandwich shop for lunch yesterday, and only caught it when we were ready to leave and she looked at the receipt before throwing it away. However it happened, it's shitty.

I know why they insist on putting the run information on FB: because it's got the broadest reach of any of their methods of communication, it's also an easy way to get MORE followers, and it's easy to share photos, etc. BUT...they should instead host the info on their own website and link to that, and if conditions are different than normal, they should put a "option 51" or whatever they need to call it on EVERY run order that includes these special terms and conditions. Like...I have one client where we have special terms and conditions. On every quote we sent to them, we have to manually paste a special blurb referencing their special terms and conditions. If we just "assumed" they remember what their special terms are, that would leave us open to so many issues. By having them ON the quote, there's nothing they can come back to us on.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

You nailed it on the head spud. They do the SAME thing every business does: Small, fine print in a weird location to cover their asses and that's about it. When something goes wrong, they point to the tiniest of fine print and say, "Look, we wrote it here for everyone." Typical business tactic to screw people out of their money. I'm not only blaming Kiesel for this as this is a usual business practice for ALL businesses and it's just a shitty way to go about it, but, at least in California (as that's the only place I know the state laws from), they can get away with it. Try to sue them and you'll lose.


----------



## MetalHead40

^^^
^^^
The companies ego is out of control and they're shady as it gets. Again, I honestly can't believe they're still in business. Everybody I dealt with through my debacle was unprofessional as could be. 

I tried hard to work with them and just wanted a guitar with an action that was functional but they just seemed to not care about customer retention at all. Its a damn shame cause that guitar I returned was absolutely gorgeous aesthetically and the tone was stellar. But with an action that buzzed to hell and was not adjustable to correct it, it had to go back. 

Still have my Carvin ST300 and love it, but as for Kiesel...Well the title of my thread here says it all.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> ^^^
> ^^^
> The companies ego is out of control and they're shady as it gets. Again, I honestly can't believe they're still in business. Everybody I dealt with through my debacle was unprofessional as could be.
> 
> I tried hard to work with them and just wanted a guitar with an action that was functional but they just seemed to not care about customer retention at all. Its a damn shame cause that guitar I returned was absolutely gorgeous aesthetically and the tone was stellar. But with an action that buzzed to hell and was not adjustable to correct it, it had to go back.
> 
> Still have my Carvin ST300 and love it, but as for Kiesel...Well the title of my thread here says it all.



Well, I just want to say that my gripes aren't with Customer Service, as Chris, Mike and Keith have done me solid quite a few times. They are good people, especially Chris. 

My problem has ALWAYS been Mr. I whiff my own farts. His constant belittling of non-USA made instruments (I have MIJ Ibanez that I paid WAY less for that sound and play just as good as his products) then the whole pickup thing... I want to support the company because I know Chris and Mike are good guys and I want to support THEM, but I can't bring myself to do it again knowing that ANY of my money would be going to that punk. What you went through was really messed up, and it seems since the separation from Carvin audio, this has become a much bigger and more common problem. I know some people are gonna bitch and complain, but when something like what happened to you happens, it makes me so much angrier that Fart sniffer lets this kinda stuff go. It's like they can't imagine people not using facebook or something (and I know while it's rare, there are a lot of people who don't actually use it).


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Small, fine print in a weird location to cover their asses and that's about it. When something goes wrong, they point to the tiniest of fine print and say, "Look, we wrote it here for everyone."





MetalHead40 said:


> The companies ego is out of control and they're shady as it gets.



This is definitely a "unpolular opinion puffin" situation, but: If the only way to get the full list of specs is on their invite-only closed Facebook group specifically for the run, and even before you are submit the request to join, the decription of the group, as well as the first stickied post inside the page, both stated the no-return/no-changes policy, and every video they posted about it both to their closed FB group and to the general open page mentions this group...it would stand to reason that anyone calling in to order would have seen these notes.

That said, it's still stupid not to make sure at the time of order entry, if only to protect themselves.

As I mentioned in the other thread, to me, it seems more like Hanlon's Razor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor


----------



## MetalHead40

MJ was positively the most unprofessional, down right rude and ignorant S.O.B. I have dealt with in my 43 years. If I'd have been in reasonable driving distance, I'd have considered driving over there and punching him in the side of the head. I've never had anyone in customer service come even remotely close to talking to me the way he did the day I called in to check on my order. I was in no way hounding him or being pushy at all either.


----------



## MetalHead40

spudmunkey said:


> This is definitely a "unpolular opinion puffin" situation, but: If the only way to get the full list of specs is on their invite-only closed Facebook group specifically for the run, and even before you are submit the request to join, the decription of the group, as well as the first stickied post inside the page, both stated the no-return/no-changes policy, and every video they posted about it both to their closed FB group and to the general open page mentions this group...it would stand to reason that anyone calling in to order would have seen these notes.
> 
> That said, it's still stupid not to make sure at the time of order entry, if only to protect themselves.
> 
> As I mentioned in the other thread, to me, it seems more like Hanlon's Razor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor



I was basing my comment on my experience not the above Facebook blah blah blah...And in regards to that it's actually purely factual; no opinion whatsoever.


----------



## spudmunkey

MetalHead40 said:


> I was basing my comment on my experience not the above Facebook blah blah blah...And in regards to that it's actually purely factual; no opinion whatsoever.



Ahh, sorry, no: I meant "The following information is my own opinion which is likely unpopular:...". Just in regards to the facebook thing, it didn't, on it's own, sound shady. It sounded lazy and not thought-out.


----------



## feraledge

I can’t be the only one who imagines that the Kiesel sales office is like the White House in Idiocracy. Just Red Bull and Four
Loco as the only available liquids, Nickleback on repeat, Jeff greets with ball taps and calls everyone (first initial)-Nuts.


----------



## wiretap

Late to the party here but, generally what I’ve heard about Kiesel is that they look nice but play terribly. Didn’t read the whole thread but the gist seems to confirm what I’ve heard.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wiretap said:


> Late to the party here but, generally what I’ve heard about Kiesel is that they look nice but play terribly. Didn’t read the whole thread but the gist seems to confirm what I’ve heard.


I would say they look nice and play well, based off my vm8s and dc600. kiesel can make good/great guitars, they just have shit customer service.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

wiretap said:


> Late to the party here but, generally what I’ve heard about Kiesel is that they look nice but play terribly. Didn’t read the whole thread but the gist seems to confirm what I’ve heard.



So I need to qualify my reply to your comment:

My Carvin JB200? Masterpiece of luthiery. Plays like butter and is one of my favorite guitars.

My Kiesel V220? Plays great, sounds great, fit and finish bothered the hell out of me. Lazy paint job leaving primer showing. To hell with that.


----------



## MetalHead40

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh, sorry, no: I meant "The following information is my own opinion which is likely unpopular:...". Just in regards to the facebook thing, it didn't, on it's own, sound shady. It sounded lazy and not thought-out.



I got ya. Right on brother.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> MJ was positively the most unprofessional, down right rude and ignorant S.O.B. I have dealt with in my 43 years. If I'd have been in reasonable driving distance, I'd have considered driving over there and punching him in the side of the head. I've never had anyone in customer service come even remotely close to talking to me the way he did the day I called in to check on my order. I was in no way hounding him or being pushy at all either.



I've heard lots of people complain about Mike. Personally I've never had a problem with him, but I did most of my orders through Chris so...


----------



## feraledge

Can we get a petition going to get Chris a job at Sweetwater. He’s increasingly having to shoulder too much responsibility to salvage a sinking ship while anchoring it to its more respectable past.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Only problem is that I dunno if he would want to move away from California.


----------



## Hollowway

feraledge said:


> Can we get a petition going to get Chris a job at Sweetwater. He’s increasingly having to shoulder too much responsibility to salvage a sinking ship while anchoring it to its more respectable past.



We should get him a job at Tosin's new company.


----------



## feraledge

MatiasTolkki said:


> Only problem is that I dunno if he would want to move away from California.


If Jeff became your boss, I feel like that the personification of all of California's worst attributes might scare you off. But I don't think my hypothetical petition is a realistic option.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

feraledge said:


> If Jeff became your boss, I feel like that the personification of all of California's worst attributes might scare you off. But I don't think my hypothetical petition is a realistic option.



I'm from L.A. originally, I already know how bad it can be, and there is, in fact, worse than Jeff


----------



## soliloquy

humm....the features i want, currently, are only being offered via carvin/kiesel.
i think i rather go guitarless than to deal with them.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Luckily, Ibanez gave me what I have been dying for for a LONG time, so I dont even need to be concerned with Kiesel anymore. I'll keep the the ones I have, but not buying any more.


----------



## diagrammatiks

soliloquy said:


> humm....the features i want, currently, are only being offered via carvin/kiesel.
> i think i rather go guitarless than to deal with them.



I mean shit dude. If you are the kind of person that has to have some sparkly paint, 5 piece exotic wood neck with a 1 piece burl beveled body. Maybe go guitarless? 
What else do they do that no one else can do.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean shit dude. If you are the kind of person that has to have some sparkly paint, 5 piece exotic wood neck with a 1 piece burl beveled body. Maybe go guitarless?
> What else do they do that no one else can do.



***All of which make the guitar non-returnable

Just had to add that


----------



## Shask

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean shit dude. If you are the kind of person that has to have some sparkly paint, 5 piece exotic wood neck with a 1 piece burl beveled body. Maybe go guitarless?
> What else do they do that no one else can do.



Main reason why they interest me is 25" scale. Hardly no one else does that.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Shask said:


> Main reason why they interest me is 25" scale. Hardly no one else does that.



One could argue that 25" is a cop-out to make themselves different, rather than something original. Perspective is a wonderful thing, right?


----------



## metallifan3091

PRS mostly does 25" scales, so if that's the only reason Kiesel appeals, you have other options.


----------



## Avedas

PRS is definitely the first name that comes to mind when I think of a 25" scale.


----------



## Restarted

Avedas said:


> PRS is definitely the first name that comes to mind when I think of a 25" scale.





metallifan3091 said:


> PRS mostly does 25" scales, so if that's the only reason Kiesel appeals, you have other options.



Thirded. I've never thought of Kiesel as "the 25" scale guys". It's a PRS thing for sure. Kiesel is when you want to mix and match woods.


----------



## Shask

metallifan3091 said:


> PRS mostly does 25" scales, so if that's the only reason Kiesel appeals, you have other options.



Yes, I have a PRS also, but they really only do one thing.... they do it well, but mostly one thing.


----------



## BMO

Shask said:


> Yes, I have a PRS also, but they really only do one thing.... they do it well, but mostly one thing.


I have to disagree with you there. Everyone from classic rock musicians to Paul Allender of Cradle of Filth and Mark Holcomb of Periphery use PRS guitars. They're insanely versatile.


----------



## Shask

MatiasTolkki said:


> One could argue that 25" is a cop-out to make themselves different, rather than something original. Perspective is a wonderful thing, right?



Hardly anything in guitar making is original. Pretty much everything is variations on ideas that have been done before, all that really separates brands is the combinations of specs they use. 

I am not saying I love Kiesel, or their policies or anything, but you wonder why people would use them? I say that is a big reason why.... you can get combinations of specs that rarely anyone else uses. You are not going to get a 25" scale, c-shape neck, superstrat shape, with Hipshot bridge from PRS. They just don't do that.


----------



## Shask

BMO said:


> I have to disagree with you there. Everyone from classic rock musicians to Paul Allender of Cradle of Filth and Mark Holcomb of Periphery use PRS guitars. They're insanely versatile.



I am not saying they are not great guitars.... I am saying they basically do one thing. You are not going to get a 27" scale Flying V in satin black from PRS for example. They basically make variations on the same idea/specs.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

BMO said:


> I have to disagree with you there. Everyone from classic rock musicians to Paul Allender of Cradle of Filth and Mark Holcomb of Periphery use PRS guitars. They're insanely versatile.



I'm not a fan of PRS guitars, but I won't shit on them either. Paul makes some nice guitars, and even the korean/indo models aren't all that shabby. I just think his flame tops are really weak compared to kiesels, even the stuff on the private stock looks kinda meh. My JB200 may have spoiled me to awesome flame tops but still, that guitar will be 4 years old iirc this year.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Shask said:


> Hardly anything in guitar making is original. Pretty much everything is variations on ideas that have been done before, all that really separates brands is the combinations of specs they use.
> 
> I am not saying I love Kiesel, or their policies or anything, but you wonder why people would use them? I say that is a big reason why.... you can get combinations of specs that rarely anyone else uses. You are not going to get a 25" scale, c-shape neck, superstrat shape, with Hipshot bridge from PRS. They just don't do that.



That's very true. Also, I'm not shitting on 25 inch scale, but I have heard 25" called the "compromise scale" before so I was just putting that out there. My JB200 and V220 do play great and both are 25". I like 25.5 just a tad more for the string tension but that's not a deal breaker imo.


----------



## Shask

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'm not a fan of PRS guitars, but I won't shit on them either. Paul makes some nice guitars, and even the korean/indo models aren't all that shabby. I just think his flame tops are really weak compared to kiesels, even the stuff on the private stock looks kinda meh. My JB200 may have spoiled me to awesome flame tops but still, that guitar will be 4 years old iirc this year.



I actually love PRS guitars. I prefer the SE models because they are flat top / bevel. I dont like archtop guitars. I am just saying, if you dont like their general feel, then you wont like them because everything they made is a basic variation on the same model. When you look at Kiesel, an Aries is VERY different from a Vanquish, or Bolt, or etc.... More variety is one reason people like them.

Same goes for me with Schecter. I am not a fan of most of their guitars because of the archtop, but I LOVE the Banshee guitars. One of my favorite guitars is the Banshee. Almost all of their other models are all similar.


----------



## Shask

MatiasTolkki said:


> That's very true. Also, I'm not shitting on 25 inch scale, but I have heard 25" called the "compromise scale" before so I was just putting that out there. My JB200 and V220 do play great and both are 25". I like 25.5 just a tad more for the string tension but that's not a deal breaker imo.



I have guitars of 25.5", 24.75", 25", and 26.5". I have small hands, and scale length is VERY noticeable to me. I just happen to really like 25" scale, and sadly, there are not many choices, and Kiesel is basically 50% of your options. It is actually sad that many of their new models are 25.5", because I feel like they are losing that originality by offering what everyone else offers.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Shask said:


> I actually love PRS guitars. I prefer the SE models because they are flat top / bevel. I dont like archtop guitars. I am just saying, if you dont like their general feel, then you wont like them because everything they made is a basic variation on the same model. When you look at Kiesel, an Aries is VERY different from a Vanquish, or Bolt, or etc.... More variety is one reason people like them.
> 
> Same goes for me with Schecter. I am not a fan of most of their guitars because of the archtop, but I LOVE the Banshee guitars. One of my favorite guitars is the Banshee. Almost all of their other models are all similar.



Excessive beveling is what drives me away from the new Kiesel models. I've played an Aries, and while the bevel is nice, it's so extreme and unnecessary. I do just fine with the forearm cut on my Ibanezes, any more than that is just doing away with good wood.

The only thing I wish they did STANDARD was a nice belly cut on the V220/X220 models. I think it's a non-returnable Op50 for that and for something that ADDS comfort like it does, it would be amazing as standard. I have a big belly right now so the lack of a belly cut on the v220 is kinda prohibiting (I AM dieting right now so hopefully that'll be a problem of the past before too long  )


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Shask said:


> I have guitars of 25.5", 24.75", 25", and 26.5". I have small hands, and scale length is VERY noticeable to me. I just happen to really like 25" scale, and sadly, there are not many choices, and Kiesel is basically 50% of your options. It is actually sad that many of their new models are 25"5, because I feel like they are losing that originality by offering what everyone else offers.



It's because El Jeffe the fart sniffer wants to appeal to a bunch of modern metal chug binary bullshit, that's why. Every artist on the roster does something along the lines of chug, of chug more, except for Frank Gambale or Greg howe. Those sorts of people downtune their guitars so much that scale length becomes an issue because of string tension. How about playing in a reasonable tuning? That might be smarter. It's because of that that Kiesel is turning into a chug guitarist's company with nothing for those of us who don't need to downtune to Drop G on a 6 string.


----------



## bostjan

MatiasTolkki said:


> It's because El Jeffe the fart sniffer wants to appeal to a bunch of modern metal chug binary bullshit, that's why. Every artist on the roster does something along the lines of chug, of chug more, except for Frank Gambale or Greg howe. Those sorts of people downtune their guitars so much that scale length becomes an issue because of string tension. How about playing in a reasonable tuning? That might be smarter. It's because of that that Kiesel is turning into a chug guitarist's company with nothing for those of us who don't need to downtune to Drop G on a 6 string.


Hey, save some salt for the sea.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> It's because El Jeffe the fart sniffer wants to appeal to a bunch of modern metal chug binary bullshit, that's why. Every artist on the roster does something along the lines of chug, of chug more, except for Frank Gambale or Greg howe. Those sorts of people downtune their guitars so much that scale length becomes an issue because of string tension. How about playing in a reasonable tuning? That might be smarter. It's because of that that Kiesel is turning into a chug guitarist's company with nothing for those of us who don't need to downtune to Drop G on a 6 string.



Although there are some of those artists on their roster they still have some pretty amazing musicians.


----------



## Shask

MatiasTolkki said:


> Excessive beveling is what drives me away from the new Kiesel models. I've played an Aries, and while the bevel is nice, it's so extreme and unnecessary. I do just fine with the forearm cut on my Ibanezes, any more than that is just doing away with good wood.
> 
> The only thing I wish they did STANDARD was a nice belly cut on the V220/X220 models. I think it's a non-returnable Op50 for that and for something that ADDS comfort like it does, it would be amazing as standard. I have a big belly right now so the lack of a belly cut on the v220 is kinda prohibiting (I AM dieting right now so hopefully that'll be a problem of the past before too long  )


i have not played an Aries, but I do agree that it looks a bit excessive. However, I would play one, lol. I am sure it is comfortable. I have a SCB6 which has a nice bevel. It is enough to feel comfortable, but not enough to look out of proportion. I think all of the models since the Aries look horrible.

I do like forearm contours, but I find many of them to stop too soon. They need to go over like 2" more over the bridge. They are comfortable, but just adding a bit more would improve them a ton. Yes, as I get older and gain weight, the more I notice the bevel/contour/archtop issues.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Man I went through adding like 4 youtube videos to my reply and none showed up... 

RIP Forum Skills


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Shask said:


> i have not played an Aries, but I do agree that it looks a bit excessive. However, I would play one, lol. I am sure it is comfortable. I have a SCB6 which has a nice bevel. It is enough to feel comfortable, but not enough to look out of proportion. I think all of the models since the Aries look horrible.
> 
> I do like forearm contours, but I find many of them to stop too soon. They need to go over like 2" more over the bridge. They are comfortable, but just adding a bit more would improve them a ton. Yes, as I get older and gain weight, the more I notice the bevel/contour/archtop issues.


 Just get it non beveled. That's a returnable option


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Chris Letchford 6, 7, and 8

Guys from Archspire (don't know their names) 7, and 8. B standard on 7. B standard with Low E on 8 

Justin Mckinney from the Faceless

Scott Carstairs from Fallujah

Fixed it


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I give up.


r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Chris Letchford 6, 7, and 8
> 
> Guys from Archspire (don't know their names) 7, and 8. B standard on 7. B standard with Low E on 8
> 
> Justin Mckinney from the Faceless
> 
> Scott Carstairs from Fallujah
> 
> Fixed it


----------



## diagrammatiks

Shask said:


> I have guitars of 25.5", 24.75", 25", and 26.5". I have small hands, and scale length is VERY noticeable to me. I just happen to really like 25" scale, and sadly, there are not many choices, and Kiesel is basically 50% of your options. It is actually sad that many of their new models are 25.5", because I feel like they are losing that originality by offering what everyone else offers.



every time someone complains about small hands...
I look at my hands which are the same size as my 5'1 wife's..
then I look at my 28.625 inch baritones...
and think...
am I a freak??


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

diagrammatiks said:


> every time someone complains about small hands...
> I look at my hands which are the same size as my 5'1 wife's..
> then I look at my 28.625 inch baritones...
> and think...
> am I a freak??



Not at all. If you're comfy with it then do it. 

I have super long fingers. I only feel comfortable on 8 strings. I feel too cramped on 6ers and even some 7ers


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Although there are some of those artists on their roster they still have some pretty amazing musicians.



My friend is the only Japanese Kiesel Endorser, Kaz Horie. He uses a DC727 for his solo work, and has an A6 for his main band Vigilante. He just ordered a crescent Multiscale 6 iirc.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> My friend is the only Japanese Kiesel Endorser, Kaz Horie. He uses a DC727 for his solo work, and has an A6 for his main band Vigilante. He just ordered a crescent Multiscale 6 iirc.



That's legit.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> It's because El Jeffe the fart sniffer wants to appeal to a bunch of modern metal chug binary bullshit, that's why. Every artist on the roster does something along the lines of chug, of chug more, except for Frank Gambale or Greg howe. Those sorts of people downtune their guitars so much that scale length becomes an issue because of string tension. How about playing in a reasonable tuning? That might be smarter. It's because of that that Kiesel is turning into a chug guitarist's company with nothing for those of us who don't need to downtune to Drop G on a 6 string.



Those are the folks who buy guitars these days. 

Modern metal of the "chug chug" variety has matured to the point where a lot of the fans are well established adults who can drop a few grand on guitars.


----------



## Taikatatti

MatiasTolkki said:


> It's because El Jeffe the fart sniffer wants to appeal to a bunch of modern metal chug binary bullshit, that's why. Every artist on the roster does something along the lines of chug, of chug more, except for Frank Gambale or Greg howe. Those sorts of people downtune their guitars so much that scale length becomes an issue because of string tension. How about playing in a reasonable tuning? That might be smarter. It's because of that that Kiesel is turning into a chug guitarist's company with nothing for those of us who don't need to downtune to Drop G on a 6 string.


Did he piss in your cereal or what?


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Excessive beveling is what drives me away from the new Kiesel models. I've played an Aries, and while the bevel is nice, it's so extreme and unnecessary. I do just fine with the forearm cut on my Ibanezes, any more than that is just doing away with good wood.
> 
> The only thing I wish they did STANDARD was a nice belly cut on the V220/X220 models. I think it's a non-returnable Op50 for that and for something that ADDS comfort like it does, it would be amazing as standard. I have a big belly right now so the lack of a belly cut on the v220 is kinda prohibiting (I AM dieting right now so hopefully that'll be a problem of the past before too long  )


But... you can get an Aries without the bevel and just a forearm cut. It looks and feels just like an Ibanez.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> But... you can get an Aries without the bevel and just a forearm cut. It looks and feels just like an Ibanez.



I'd rather have an Ibanez in that situation.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Taikatatti said:


> Did he piss in your cereal or what?



You could say that. More like took a shit in my cereal and tried to force feed it to me.


----------



## Hollowway

diagrammatiks said:


> every time someone complains about small hands...
> I look at my hands which are the same size as my 5'1 wife's..
> then I look at my 28.625 inch baritones...
> and think...
> am I a freak??



No. But, in your defense, your hands aren't small - your wife can palm a basketball.


----------



## spudmunkey

Something your wife something something balls.

edit: It's late and too tired to think of something actually witty, but still felt the need to joke.


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> Excessive beveling is what drives me away from the new Kiesel models. I've played an Aries, and while the bevel is nice, it's so extreme and unnecessary. I do just fine with the forearm cut on my Ibanezes, any more than that is just doing away with good wood.



I feel like the bevel on the Aries is one of its most distinctive features. They should have never even offered the non-bevel option IMO. The bevel does make a marked difference in comfort to me but does need more planning in finish choices as not everything looks great with it. Taking the bevel out makes it just another superstrat.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> I feel like the bevel on the Aries is one of its most distinctive features. They should have never even offered the non-bevel option IMO. The bevel does make a marked difference in comfort to me but does need more planning in finish choices as not everything looks great with it. Taking the bevel out makes it just another superstrat.



Leaving half the top off of it makes it look unbalanced and awful imo, just like all the Bevel Queen's original models since the split. Makes it look distinct, sure but I have ALWAYS hated the look of the aries when it's not a solid color. My friend has a flame maple top on his and I feel weird looking at it; I'm always thinking "Gimme the rest of the flame top I ordered!"


----------



## Chokey Chicken

diagrammatiks said:


> every time someone complains about small hands...
> I look at my hands which are the same size as my 5'1 wife's..
> then I look at my 28.625 inch baritones...
> and think...
> am I a freak??



No, but personal preference is a thing. Being a girl, I have tiny girl hands, and I never had issues with long scales. (I have one of the agile 28.whatever inch scaled guitars and am comfortable with it.)

I have more issues with neck profiles. I hate incredibly thin necks. Ibanez and schecter sls necks hurt my hands.

As for the Aries, I love the bevel on it. Figured/different tops look like shit though.


----------



## Albake21

laxu said:


> I feel like the bevel on the Aries is one of its most distinctive features. They should have never even offered the non-bevel option IMO. The bevel does make a marked difference in comfort to me but does need more planning in finish choices as not everything looks great with it. Taking the bevel out makes it just another superstrat.


Completely agree... as you can tell by my picture lol. I never understood it because you can just go grab a DC if you don't like the bevel. But at the same time, Kiesel is great at giving everyone the most options they can. Even if it's not a written option, you can call them up and they will most likely do it for you.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Completely agree... as you can tell by my picture lol. I never understood it because you can just go grab a DC if you don't like the bevel. But at the same time, Kiesel is great at giving everyone the most options they can. Even if it's not a written option, you can call them up and they will most likely do it for you.



And then they instantly tell you "This option makes it non-returnable, even if we screw something up and it's not your fault."


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> And then they instantly tell you "This option makes it non-returnable, even if we screw something up and it's not your fault."


If there is a problem, they will fix it. I don't get why so many people say this. So far every person who has ever had a problem with a custom option, they have taken care of them in some way. I will say their support isn't the greatest, and sometimes you do have to jump through some hoops first (which definitely does need some improvements) but all in all they will help you out if needed. Plus a company like this needs to have rules for custom options, they just need to make their guidelines a bit more forward.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> If there is a problem, they will fix it. I don't get why so many people say this. So far every person who has ever had a problem with a custom option, they have taken care of them in some way. I will say their support isn't the greatest, and sometimes you do have to jump through some hoops first (which definitely does need some improvements) but all in all they will help you out if needed. Plus a company like this needs to have rules for custom options, they just need to make their guidelines a bit more forward.



Personally, I havent had any trouble because my main sales guy has always been Chris, and he has been amazing. People who have complained though have always complained about Mike, but i've never had any direct dealings with him outside of a couple things when my JB200 arrived (when they still had a loser dealer who didn't know what they were doing). I just think that it's WAY too common to hear of any bad CS stories, especially since the split. 

My biggest problem is that they are willing to offer some new finishes, like the crackles, but are automatically non-returnable, even though they are going to be in the builder. That seems REALLY messed up.


----------



## Restarted

Albake21 said:


> If there is a problem, they will fix it. I don't get why so many people say this. So far every person who has ever had a problem with a custom option, they have taken care of them in some way. I will say their support isn't the greatest, and sometimes you do have to jump through some hoops first (which definitely does need some improvements) but all in all they will help you out if needed. Plus a company like this needs to have rules for custom options, they just need to make their guidelines a bit more forward.



May I refer you to page 1, post 1 of this thread? lmao


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> If there is a problem, they will fix it. I don't get why so many people say this. So far every person who has ever had a problem with a custom option, they have taken care of them in some way. I will say their support isn't the greatest, and sometimes you do have to jump through some hoops first (which definitely does need some improvements) but all in all they will help you out if needed. Plus a company like this needs to have rules for custom options, they just need to make their guidelines a bit more forward.



Having to resort to chargebacks isn't them "taking care" of anybody.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> Personally, I havent had any trouble because my main sales guy has always been Chris, and he has been amazing. People who have complained though have always complained about Mike, but i've never had any direct dealings with him outside of a couple things when my JB200 arrived (when they still had a loser dealer who didn't know what they were doing). I just think that it's WAY too common to hear of any bad CS stories, especially since the split.
> 
> My biggest problem is that they are willing to offer some new finishes, like the crackles, but are automatically non-returnable, even though they are going to be in the builder. That seems REALLY messed up.



I've done 3 builds through Mike and he has always been really nice and willing to help me. i've even cancelled an order on him and didn't change his attitude at all.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I've done 3 builds through Mike and he has always been really nice and willing to help me. i've even cancelled an order on him and didn't change his attitude at all.



That's why I don't judge him personally based on internet comments as I have always had positive interactions with him. I prefer to look at the over-arching issues that seem to be plaguing CS now, because it seems that there are more complaints now than ever before, and while that might be due to volume, it still sends a chilling message either way.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> That's why I don't judge him personally based on internet comments as I have always had positive interactions with him. I prefer to look at the over-arching issues that seem to be plaguing CS now, because it seems that there are more complaints now than ever before, and while that might be due to volume, it still sends a chilling message either way.



Yeah I look at it like this. They are just following orders. They are human as well so they do get stressed and stuff. I work in a call center and know the feel. The upfront cutomer service isn't an issue. It's the back end if you have a problem.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

They should have to read off a disclaimer though when it comes to options and rules


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Having to resort to chargebacks isn't them "taking care" of anybody.


My point still stands. Kiesel should have been more clear about their terms. This is completely true, but on the other hand, personally I think OP didn't handle everything correctly and knew from the start some of these rules that he went against.

I also want to add that like someone else said, these guys are only human. They have a ton of traffic now and I completely understand them being stressed about NAMM. He said he'd check on it, but OP was still persistent.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Albake21 said:


> My point still stands. Kiesel should have been more clear about their terms. This is completely true, but on the other hand, personally I think OP didn't handle everything correctly and knew from the start some of these rules that he went against.
> 
> I also want to add that like someone else said, these guys are only human. They have a ton of traffic now and I completely understand them being stressed about NAMM. He said he'd check on it, but OP was still persistent.



The seller isn't at fault here. There was a double charge and he wanted to cancel because they wouldn't refund him his money. 

I get this in my job. "Sorry you health insurance is cancelled and can't be reactivated" It is something I say all the time even though I hate but I have to follow the rules to keep my job. We always refund overpayments.


----------



## MetalHead40

Restarted said:


> May I refer you to page 1, post 1 of this thread? lmao



EXACTLY! Thanks for the support here on this. 

I absolutely loved the feel & fundamental tone, aesthetics and fit to finish of that guitar and REALLY wanted keep it, but they were absolutely not willing to make it right. They had a great opportunity to provide great customer service, correct a rather simple problem (The Hipshot bridge saddle height) and to retain a past customer who would of continued to due business with them into the future. 

But after that piss poor pathetic excuse of so called customer service all I can say is: Kiesel---NEVER AGAIN!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> EXACTLY! Thanks for the support here on this.
> 
> I absolutely loved the feel & fundamental tone, aesthetics and fit to finish of that guitar and REALLY wanted keep it, but they were absolutely not willing to make it right. They had a great opportunity to provide great customer service, correct a rather simple problem (The Hipshot bridge saddle height) and to retain a past customer who would of continued to due business with them into the future.
> 
> But after that piss poor pathetic excuse of so called customer service all I can say is: Kiesel---NEVER AGAIN!



With my own issues with finish on my V220, then Jeff's pompous BS in taking away just about every pickup they've made for almost 40 years because "Muh Lithium rulezzzzzzzz," I'm with you bro. 

Can you imagine if Dimarzio discontinued the Super Distortion or PAF Pro? Or Seymour Duncan killed the JB or Jazz? People would lose their collective shits over it.


----------



## MetalHead40

And for those that have had good experience with that Mike cat, that's great. I was no so lucky, and for anyone that has just chimed in on this 59 page thread without even reading my opening post on page one, below please find my conversation with him the day I called in after receiving an email that my guitar was completed and ready to ship.

Copied/pasted from my opening post on page 1:

Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy. 

The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.

Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):

Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.

Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.

Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.

Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.

Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.

Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.

Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.


So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.


I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:

Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar. 

Here he cuts me off real aggressively:

Mike: You know your being really rude!

Me: Excuse me?

Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me! 

Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?

Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM. 

Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.

Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.


----------



## Albake21

MetalHead40 said:


> And for those that have had good experience with that Mike cat, that's great. I was no so lucky, and for anyone that has just chimed in on this 59 page thread without even reading my opening post on page one, below please find my conversation with him the day I called in after receiving an email that my guitar was completed and ready to ship.
> 
> Copied/pasted from my opening post on page 1:
> 
> Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy.
> 
> The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.
> 
> Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):
> 
> Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.
> 
> Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.
> 
> Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.
> 
> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.
> 
> Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.
> 
> 
> So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:
> 
> Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar.
> 
> Here he cuts me off real aggressively:
> 
> Mike: You know your being really rude!
> 
> Me: Excuse me?
> 
> Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me!
> 
> Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?
> 
> Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM.
> 
> Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.
> 
> Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.



My point still stands... (even though I already read it from page 1). They are only people and I know damn well companies get real stressed around NAMM time, and on the other hand you called him an hour and a half later when he already told you what was going on. Personally I think it was just the wrong time and place for your whole experience to go down.

So again, he should have handled it a bit better, and you should have listened to him and not called back.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> My point still stands... (even though I already read it from page 1). They are only people and I know damn well companies get real stressed around NAMM time, and on the other hand you called him an hour and a half later when he already told you what was going on. Personally I think it was just the wrong time and place for your whole experience to go down.
> 
> So again, he should have handled it a bit better, and you should have listened to him and not called back.



To be fair though, calling back because something didn't sit right with taking parts off finished guitars to put on guitars going to NAMM would give me great pause as well. Personally, before i hung up, I'd say "No you don't. If my guitar is finished then I want it shipped now. Don't you dare take parts off MY guitar to put on a guitar you will probably sell to a high roller at NAMM." I'd probably be even more pissed that the OP was and at least he was polite about it. I'd probably throw a shit fit saying "nothing against you bro, but you tell whoever made that decision to get on the phone with me, even if it's Jeff himself. I will tell that person to their face to send me my guitar or I'm demanding a refund." Simple as that. Sure it might cause a bigger ruckus, but I'd be incredibly pissed if they were going to take MY completed guitar, turn it into a parts donor, just because of NAMM.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> To be fair though, calling back because something didn't sit right with taking parts off finished guitars to put on guitars going to NAMM would give me great pause as well. Personally, before i hung up, I'd say "No you don't. If my guitar is finished then I want it shipped now. Don't you dare take parts off MY guitar to put on a guitar you will probably sell to a high roller at NAMM." I'd probably be even more pissed that the OP was and at least he was polite about it. I'd probably throw a shit fit saying "nothing against you bro, but you tell whoever made that decision to get on the phone with me, even if it's Jeff himself. I will tell that person to their face to send me my guitar or I'm demanding a refund." Simple as that. Sure it might cause a bigger ruckus, but I'd be incredibly pissed if they were going to take MY completed guitar, turn it into a parts donor, just because of NAMM.


I definitely agree though, I'd be pissed too if I found out they were taking parts off of my completed guitar.


----------



## MetalHead40

Albake21 said:


> My point still stands... (even though I already read it from page 1). They are only people and I know damn well companies get real stressed around NAMM time, and on the other hand you called him an hour and a half later when he already told you what was going on. Personally I think it was just the wrong time and place for your whole experience to go down.
> 
> So again, he should have handled it a bit better, and you should have listened to him and not called back.



Your funny.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> Your funny.



YOU'RE funny


----------



## MetalHead40

^^^
I don't give a good goddamn how stressed someone is around NAMM, they still need to treat each customer with respect and not display the kind of pissy/unprofessional attitude he did.

"you should have listened to him and not called back" HAhahaha!

I payed the company for the product in full and was emailed that it was complete, so I I'm pretty sure I was well within my right to call him back.


----------



## QuantumCybin

The whole concept of taking parts off of finished guitars for paying customers to go towards their NAMM presentation is just WEIRD. Are there any other companies that do this? I honestly don’t know, and if they do, I’m certain they wouldn’t be telling the paying customer that.

What a fucking joke


----------



## Alberto7

What parts are we even talking about? Bridge, pickups, and the like? Or neck and body? They're a big enough company that I am sure they have spare parts lying around. Why take them off a finished guitar that has already been paid for in full? Are they THAT tight with inventory?

Those are legitimate questions I've had all along about OP's case. I don't get it.


----------



## QuantumCybin

Had a few extra minutes to make this


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

QuantumCybin said:


> The whole concept of taking parts off of finished guitars for paying customers to go towards their NAMM presentation is just WEIRD. Are there any other companies that do this? I honestly don’t know, and if they do, I’m certain they wouldn’t be telling the paying customer that.
> 
> What a fucking joke



Didn't Vik do this? Or was it with entire guitars?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Didn't Vik do this? Or was it with entire guitars?


pretty sure he was taking people's guitars to shows and generally being a shitbag by not building them and taking multiple years to build them.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

QuantumCybin said:


> Had a few extra minutes to make this



You are doing kek's work. Shadilay.


----------



## StevenC

KnightBrolaire said:


> pretty sure he was taking people's guitars to shows and generally being a shitbag by not building them and taking multiple years to build them.


And that one time he wouldn't let elq have his guitar.


----------



## Discoqueen

Like why don’t they just have... parts laying around? I’d imagine hardware and electronics are the only thing they could take off a finished guitar, so like... just use all the parts everywhere, and if somehow there isn’t a bridge for example laying around take one off a guitar that isn’t finished and ready to ship. 

I feel for mike (?) cuz it sounds Kiesel sucks to work at, and he has been there a long time hasn’t he? Calling back an hour and a half seems pushy, for sure, but if a customer does that, a customer does that, and you adjust for it.

Now sometimes an individual employee performance can be greatly affected by bad management. I was working one Christmas season in a department that needed 5 people to run smoothly, 4 to be a little hectic, but they would only put 3 people on at a time. 

So I’d be at a register cashing someone out, the hear glass break from somewhere in the department, while I have to use the bathroom, while the phone is ringing, and everyone else was multitasking. So I’m on the phone, cleaning up broken glass, while the line is just mounting at my register. 

So my department ended up gettin an unprecedented amount of customer complaints, so the three main workers (myself and two others) had to go and talk to the owners directly and they were like *this is unacceptable the customer comes first* but as soon as they put five people in the department, the complaints stopped. 
So honestly for every complaint I got that season, I really shrugged it off as the manager’s fault because you can’t throw someone into chaos without a lifeline (we weren’t supposed to call down for managers unless it was absolutely unavoidable) and expect them to be pleasant. 

So I just wanted to put that out there cuz I feel for workers whose bosses make the job impossible. And it sounds like Jeff is doing that. Anytime an employee says, “I am just doing my job,” you gotta bet they don’t like what they are telling you either because while the boss doesn’t have to be an asshole to people’s faces, the employees do and that sucks. 

Not saying OP shouldn’t be pissed because none of the in-house issues at Kiesel are excuses, at all. But lol blame Jeff kiesel is my point.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Didn't Vik do this? Or was it with entire guitars?



He took out the pickups that were in my guitar for a guitar show in the US and then put them back in after hoping I wouldn't notice.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Discoqueen said:


> Like why don’t they just have... parts laying around? I’d imagine hardware and electronics are the only thing they could take off a finished guitar, so like... just use all the parts everywhere, and if somehow there isn’t a bridge for example laying around take one off a guitar that isn’t finished and ready to ship.
> 
> I feel for mike (?) cuz it sounds Kiesel sucks to work at, and he has been there a long time hasn’t he? Calling back an hour and a half seems pushy, for sure, but if a customer does that, a customer does that, and you adjust for it.
> 
> Now sometimes an individual employee performance can be greatly affected by bad management. I was working one Christmas season in a department that needed 5 people to run smoothly, 4 to be a little hectic, but they would only put 3 people on at a time.
> 
> So I’d be at a register cashing someone out, the hear glass break from somewhere in the department, while I have to use the bathroom, while the phone is ringing, and everyone else was multitasking. So I’m on the phone, cleaning up broken glass, while the line is just mounting at my register.
> 
> So my department ended up gettin an unprecedented amount of customer complaints, so the three main workers (myself and two others) had to go and talk to the owners directly and they were like *this is unacceptable the customer comes first* but as soon as they put five people in the department, the complaints stopped.
> So honestly for every complaint I got that season, I really shrugged it off as the manager’s fault because you can’t throw someone into chaos without a lifeline (we weren’t supposed to call down for managers unless it was absolutely unavoidable) and expect them to be pleasant.
> 
> So I just wanted to put that out there cuz I feel for workers whose bosses make the job impossible. And it sounds like Jeff is doing that. Anytime an employee says, “I am just doing my job,” you gotta bet they don’t like what they are telling you either because while the boss doesn’t have to be an asshole to people’s faces, the employees do and that sucks.
> 
> Not saying OP shouldn’t be pissed because none of the in-house issues at Kiesel are excuses, at all. But lol blame Jeff kiesel is my point.



that's what I do, blame El Jeffe for everything. He took all that was good about Carvin and threw it out with the baby in the bath water. I like Chris and Mike (i know the OP is kinda not into Mike all that much) and they've always done me solid. Jeff really screwed the pooch alienating so many older fans with him killing off the old pups and a lot of models that were fan favorites, like the JB200SC, for that god awful JB100. I wanted a JB200SC and when he discontinued it, I was pissed. The pups were just the last straw with me. However, that's on Jeff and not the Sales guys.


----------



## SDMFVan

Discoqueen said:


> So I’d be at a register cashing someone out, the hear glass break from somewhere in the department, while I have to use the bathroom



I'm surprised you didn't just piss your pants when you realized Stone Cold was about to kick your ass...




...sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## sezna

Just gonna chime in here with the hopes that somebody can give me third person advice on what to do lol.
I used to have a Kiesel Vader. I sold it to make room for some other gear. It is sort of my "one that got away" - it was _so good_ and felt really amazing to play. I have yet to see any others like it for sale (black, birdseye maple board, seven strings, 27" scale). I miss that guitar and have messaged the guy I sold it to, he won't sell it back.

Normally, with Kiesel, I think "get used, so you don't have to deal with Kiesel"...but...I would have to go do a Kiesel custom order to get one just like it...Anything for guitars I guess?

Kinda scary to enter into a custom order with a company that has a thread 60 pages long hating on them. Somebody console me.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Find one for sale used on facebook if you REALLY want one. People are constantly selling vaders on the carvin/kiesel buy/sell group.


----------



## diagrammatiks

sezna said:


> Just gonna chime in here with the hopes that somebody can give me third person advice on what to do lol.
> I used to have a Kiesel Vader. I sold it to make room for some other gear. It is sort of my "one that got away" - it was _so good_ and felt really amazing to play. I have yet to see any others like it for sale (black, birdseye maple board, seven strings, 27" scale). I miss that guitar and have messaged the guy I sold it to, he won't sell it back.
> 
> Normally, with Kiesel, I think "get used, so you don't have to deal with Kiesel"...but...I would have to go do a Kiesel custom order to get one just like it...Anything for guitars I guess?
> 
> Kinda scary to enter into a custom order with a company that has a thread 60 pages long hating on them. Somebody console me.




that's a pretty easy on the options though. multipiece neck? 1 piece body no top?

there shouldn't be any option 50s. so go for it.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

QuantumCybin said:


> The whole concept of taking parts off of finished guitars for paying customers to go towards their NAMM presentation is just WEIRD. Are there any other companies that do this? I honestly don’t know, and if they do, I’m certain they wouldn’t be telling the paying customer that.
> 
> What a fucking joke



I remember strictly 7, instead of building already paid for orders, "rose" from the dead and slapped a bunch of crappy guitars together to bring to namm. Basically pretending like they didn't owe anyone anything. THAT was a pretty hefty kick in the nuts from my point of view. 

Kiesel using parts from completed guitars to put together their annoying little NAMM shit show bothers me though. I fucking hate how Jeff is all "look, finger prints... Looks like somebody snuck by to try and steal our ideas" or whatever the fuck he said. The guitars are decent, but people aren't coming over to measure your gross looking melty looking beveled to hell guitars.

In fact, the one thing I hate about the guitars is Jeff's smug attitude. I'm willing to bet people wouldn't have all these customer service nightmare stories if it was someone other than Jeff manning the ship. For real, the whole "borrowing parts" thing stunk to hell of s7g shenanigans. Put that on top of the fact that both guitars I ordered were delayed by about a month because of not having the hardware for them. Not sure how a business that does nothing but build guitars can be out of bridges for a month straight on two separate occasions.


----------



## theicon2125

Señor Voorhees said:


> I remember strictly 7, instead of building already paid for orders, "rose" from the dead and slapped a bunch of crappy guitars together to bring to namm. Basically pretending like they didn't owe anyone anything. THAT was a pretty hefty kick in the nuts from my point of view.



They were in the guitar booth at the first Chicago Open Air and my reaction to it got my wife and friend's attention when they had previously been just letting me do my own thing in there. They couldn't believe it either when I explained the BS behind S7G and how awful they were.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Find one for sale used on facebook if you REALLY want one. People are constantly selling vaders on the carvin/kiesel buy/sell group.


Could you link me to this group? Definitely curious to see what's there.


----------



## Albake21

sezna said:


> Just gonna chime in here with the hopes that somebody can give me third person advice on what to do lol.
> I used to have a Kiesel Vader. I sold it to make room for some other gear. It is sort of my "one that got away" - it was _so good_ and felt really amazing to play. I have yet to see any others like it for sale (black, birdseye maple board, seven strings, 27" scale). I miss that guitar and have messaged the guy I sold it to, he won't sell it back.
> 
> Normally, with Kiesel, I think "get used, so you don't have to deal with Kiesel"...but...I would have to go do a Kiesel custom order to get one just like it...Anything for guitars I guess?
> 
> Kinda scary to enter into a custom order with a company that has a thread 60 pages long hating on them. Somebody console me.


Go for it man! Especially if you are not doing anything too crazy and getting no option 50s, its a very easy process dealing with Kiesel. I still think everyone in this thread is blowing things way out of proportion. Think about the hundreds of builds they do monthly and then compare that to the tiny bit of problems people have had. 99% of the time people have good transaction with Kiesel.


----------



## sezna

diagrammatiks said:


> there shouldn't be any option 50s. so go for it.





Albake21 said:


> Go for it man! Especially if you are not doing anything too crazy and getting no option 50s,




What exactly are option 50's? 

I specced out what I want and I don't think there is a single upcharge, haha. 27" black vader with birdseye board and hardtail...


----------



## diagrammatiks

sezna said:


> What exactly are option 50's?
> 
> I specced out what I want and I don't think there is a single upcharge, haha. 27" black vader with birdseye board and hardtail...



things that make the guitar non-returnable.


----------



## Albake21

sezna said:


> What exactly are option 50's?
> 
> I specced out what I want and I don't think there is a single upcharge, haha. 27" black vader with birdseye board and hardtail...





diagrammatiks said:


> things that make the guitar non-returnable.



Yes and no. Option 50 technically means a custom option that is not normally listed on the builder. So things like a custom paint job or custom control layout. Which most option 50s are non returnable. So like I said before, your build is a pretty normal, tame build. I'd go for it, but I'm also biased towards Kiesel compared to most on SSO.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Señor Voorhees said:


> I remember strictly 7, instead of building already paid for orders, "rose" from the dead and slapped a bunch of crappy guitars together to bring to namm. Basically pretending like they didn't owe anyone anything. THAT was a pretty hefty kick in the nuts from my point of view.
> 
> Kiesel using parts from completed guitars to put together their annoying little NAMM shit show bothers me though. I fucking hate how Jeff is all "look, finger prints... Looks like somebody snuck by to try and steal our ideas" or whatever the fuck he said. The guitars are decent, but people aren't coming over to measure your gross looking melty looking beveled to hell guitars.
> 
> In fact, the one thing I hate about the guitars is Jeff's smug attitude. I'm willing to bet people wouldn't have all these customer service nightmare stories if it was someone other than Jeff manning the ship. For real, the whole "borrowing parts" thing stunk to hell of s7g shenanigans. Put that on top of the fact that both guitars I ordered were delayed by about a month because of not having the hardware for them. Not sure how a business that does nothing but build guitars can be out of bridges for a month straight on two separate occasions.



as an addendum, my jb200 came with a cheap korean licensed floyd instead of a real one. why? OFRs were backlogged months and couldn't get any in. Did they tell me? not until someone on the carvin forums mentioned it, then I contacted Chris. they did some convoluted thing to get me the bridge but meh. They couldve let me know about it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Yes and no. Option 50 technically means a custom option that is not normally listed on the builder. So things like a custom paint job or custom control layout. Which most option 50s are non returnable. So like I said before, your build is a pretty normal, tame build. I'd go for it, but I'm also biased towards Kiesel compared to most on SSO.



Which Option 50s are returnable?


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Which Option 50s are returnable?


I'm pretty sure certain control layouts don't.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> I'm pretty sure certain control layouts don't.



Interesting. Even in the old Carvin days control layout changes (mostly tone delete) were always non-returnable, which usually struck everyone as odd because it wouldn't be that hard to just drill for one later. 

I know for a fact control additions always made for a non-returnable, as I did that with a couple of my own builds.


----------



## soliloquy

MaxOfMetal said:


> Interesting. Even in the old Carvin days control layout changes (mostly tone delete) were always non-returnable, which usually struck everyone as odd because it wouldn't be that hard to just drill for one later.
> 
> I know for a fact control additions always made for a non-returnable, as I did that with a couple of my own builds.




It depends on how much of a change you are making. On my ct424, i asked them to have both knobs and push/pull. One for coil tap, one for phase switch. That was option 50, but that didnt void the return policy.


Speaking of my carvin, many years ago, gibson released a les paul bfg. People HATED it, yet i thought it was awesome. Bee trying to sell my carvin for a while when someone asked to trade. I am tempted as i really enjoyed playing them when they were around.


----------



## MetalHead40

Albake21 said:


> Go for it man! Especially if you are not doing anything too crazy and getting no option 50s, its a very easy process dealing with Kiesel. I still think everyone in this thread is blowing things way out of proportion. Think about the hundreds of builds they do monthly and then compare that to the tiny bit of problems people have had. 99% of the time people have good transaction with Kiesel.



Not everyone is blowing things out of proportion man. I was really into my Carvin which led me to give Kiesel a shot but it was an epic fail, and they proved to me how ignorant and pompous they are. I still have my ST300c and love it, great guitar, but I definitely got a lemon with Kiesel as far as the guitar itself, and they treated me like utter shit.


----------



## Hollowway

Albake21 said:


> I still think everyone in this thread is blowing things way out of proportion. Think about the hundreds of builds they do monthly and then compare that to the tiny bit of problems people have had. 99% of the time people have good transaction with Kiesel.



Where are you getting this statistic from?


----------



## feraledge

It's easy to say that bashing the company makes it look like there's a disproportionate number of total duds out there. But considering the company had a pretty solid "anything goes, 10 day return" grace period and then have increasingly been showing signs that there's some arbitrary fine print, means that you're no longer just rolling the dice on Opt50 guitars, but on literally anything that might come out of there. 
Some of the cases where people are having horrible experiences, the guitars themselves might even be just fine, but they aren't what the customer was paying for. When the customer service response is "Jeff said no, end of story" regardless of how good or loyal of a customer someone has been, then it doesn't take many stories at all to quickly realize that the risk is disproportionately shifting.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

You know what would really change their tune? A lawsuit. If someone had the means to sue the you know what out of them, they would change their tune real quick.

The crackle finishes are a GREAT example. You are offering it as a NON-OP50, yet no returns? Yeah, eat a bag of dicks Jeffo. Charvel and Jackson even take returns on their crackles afaik.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

So it looks like CS problems are continuing

http://kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50104


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> You know what would really change their tune? A lawsuit. If someone had the means to sue the you know what out of them, they would change their tune real quick.
> 
> The crackle finishes are a GREAT example. You are offering it as a NON-OP50, yet no returns? Yeah, eat a bag of dicks Jeffo. Charvel and Jackson even take returns on their crackles afaik.


I like how they also started offering that tiffany blue color (they call it tropic) as a free option, but from what I saw on the in-stocks in that color it's an opt50. since when is a solid color opt50?


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> I like how they also started offering that tiffany blue color (they call it tropic) as a free option, but from what I saw on the in-stocks in that color it's an opt50. since when is a solid color opt50?


Yeah I saw that too. Pretty strange... I wonder if it's just not updated as that guitar was made before they announced the color. Right now they have TONS of things incorrect on their website. I emailed their online manager about it and he said he's super busy right now and trying to get to it.... that was a week ago though with no changes. I wouldn't look into their site too much right now.

On a side note, I love that new color!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> Yeah I saw that too. Pretty strange... I wonder if it's just not updated as that guitar was made before they announced the color. Right now they have TONS of things incorrect on their website. I emailed their online manager about it and he said he's super busy right now and trying to get to it.... that was a week ago though with no changes. I wouldn't look into their site too much right now.
> 
> On a side note, I love that new color!


It's probably my favorite color they offer besides lambo blue right now. I'm super tempted to order a tropic zeus.


----------



## feraledge

MatiasTolkki said:


> So it looks like CS problems are continuing
> 
> http://kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50104


I’m all for giving them hell and all, but late replies to an email is no where near the other issues people have brought up. Totally ensures that Jeff will refer to this thread as “that massive thread about late email replies” or some shit. Toss in a bro or two and pound a Red Bull in the process.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> The crackle finishes are a GREAT example. You are offering it as a NON-OP50, yet no returns? Yeah, eat a bag of dicks Jeffo. Charvel and Jackson even take returns on their crackles afaik.



I still don't understand the hate for them offering something, but saying that they will do it for you if you really want it, but it's yours.

What's the alternative? Not offering it.

I've used this metaphor before, but it's no different than a steakhouse menu that says they aren't responsible for someone not liking a well-done-cooked steak.


----------



## feraledge

spudmunkey said:


> I've used this metaphor before, but it's no different than a steakhouse menu that says they aren't responsible for someone not liking a well-done-cooked steak.


I think you're missing the point, it's more like going to a steakhouse and ordering a well-done steak and getting one super rare, but then they say it is well-done and they aren't taking it back or cooking it more. 
Oh yeah, and it costs $1500-3000.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I still don't understand the hate for them offering something, but saying that they will do it for you if you really want it, but it's yours.
> 
> What's the alternative? Not offering it.
> 
> I've used this metaphor before, but it's no different than a steakhouse menu that says they aren't responsible for someone not liking a well-done-cooked steak.



Past practice has shown that they don't properly handle warranty issues on "Option 50"/no return builds regardless if the issue is related to the spec in question. 

That said, given the track record of finish quality, especially on new finishes, there's no "good" option here. 

Ideally, they'd accept returns, minus restock/deposit towards good will towards the customer, but Jeff ain't about that. 

As stated other builders warranty this type of finish. Obviously Jeff isn't very confident in it.


----------



## feraledge

No one is upset when Kiesel adds options. They're upset when they wither recourse.


----------



## bostjan

spudmunkey said:


> I still don't understand the hate for them offering something, but saying that they will do it for you if you really want it, but it's yours.
> 
> What's the alternative? Not offering it.
> 
> I've used this metaphor before, but it's no different than a steakhouse menu that says they aren't responsible for someone not liking a well-done-cooked steak.



More more like a steakhouse saying that if you don't like your steak, you get your money back, no questions asked, as long as you only ate one or two bites, then, when someone does not like his or her steak, they first refuse to refund, because the person wanted no onions on the side, then ban that person from the premises of the restaurant.  Or if the person orders a steak and the waiter brings them a charcoal briquette and says that they cannot return it because it's well-done, even though they asked for a steak and not a charcoal briquette. Then, after a couple dozen customers get burned, we all go on the internet and collectively whine about how that steakhouse makes great steak >90% of the time.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Yeah I saw that too. Pretty strange... I wonder if it's just not updated as that guitar was made before they announced the color. Right now they have TONS of things incorrect on their website. I emailed their online manager about it and he said he's super busy right now and trying to get to it.... that was a week ago though with no changes. I wouldn't look into their site too much right now.
> 
> On a side note, I love that new color!



Yeah, their website is a bit of a shit show at the moment. Stainless Jumbo frets are still an upcharge even thpough Jeff's confirmed repeatedly that it's supposed to be a no-charge option, an not only that, but they are even MORE expensive than the EVO options, which makes zero sense.

If you select a flamed maple top, and then on the next page select tung oil finish, the builder gets confused because it's not charging anything for the flamed maple top, so it just removes it from the build once you put it in your cart.

It's always been screwy, though, even a decade ago when I ordered my first. One of the first options is "Neck and Body woods"...but then 2 pages later you can pick 5-piece necks that either already do include the neck wood you've selected so you pay for two neck upgrades, or they could even conflict with the option you selected before, which makes little sense. Selecting a Jet Black body finish, which comes with a matching headstock as standard, should remove the option to add a black-painted headstock as a separate option. When people post their build ideas over on the forum, that one pops up quite a bit that people point out as potential savings and a reason to "call the guys".


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> As stated other builders warranty this type of finish. Obviously Jeff isn't very confident in it.



If you're refering to the raw tone finish, I can't disagree with their stance (which is clear on the builder that it's not returnable).

I sell commercial and custom furniture, and any manufacturer we deal with will have a clause that says, "Solid wood is a natural material, susceptible to seasonal and occasional expansion and contraction, which can lead to warping, twisting, cupping, or cracking. _______ Industries/Designs/Workshops/Customs is not responsible for these types of issues". And I will tell you: even though we're a pretty large company in the industry, when these issues DO come up, we have to FIGHT to get a resolution from them...if we get one at all. More often than not, we just end up buying the replacement part/pieces.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Not a single guitar or bass I've tried to order through the site wound up having 100% accurate specs, pretty much due to everything you listed. Calling is pretty much the only option here. The site is a great tool for estimating the cost and letting you know what can be ordered, but that's it.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> One of the first options is "Neck and Body woods"...but then 2 pages later you can pick 5-piece necks that either already do include the neck wood you've selected so you pay for two neck upgrades, or they could even conflict with the option you selected before, which makes little sense.



This confused the living hell out of me when I was first introduced to Kiesel. They really need to remake their builder.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> If you're refering to the raw tone finish, I can't disagree with their stance (which is clear on the builder that it's not returnable).
> 
> I sell commercial and custom furniture, and any manufacturer we deal with will have a clause that says, "Solid wood is a natural material, susceptible to seasonal and occasional expansion and contraction, which can lead to warping, twisting, cupping, or cracking. _______ Industries/Designs/Workshops/Customs is not responsible for these types of issues". And I will tell you: even though we're a pretty large company in the industry, when these issues DO come up, we have to FIGHT to get a resolution from them...if we get one at all. More often than not, we just end up buying the replacement part/pieces.



I was referring specifically to the crackle finishes.

Look at fretboards. Most are unfinished and untreated. By that same logic no guitar with an unfinished fretboard should be warrantied.

I'm a brewery worker. All of our materials are natural. We run into quality issues from suppliers, many of which have similar clauses, but we still hold them to a certain standard and don't back down if they send us garbage.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> This confused the living hell out of me when I was first introduced to Kiesel. They really need to remake their builder.



This. Almost a decade ago, someone from Carvin on the forum mentioned that *because* they have so many people that have been there 10, 20, 30 years, who can translate option codes in their sleep, that it's going to be an incredibly challenging time to switch over to a new option code methodology...but even then they knew it was an inevitable necessity even with the options they had available *then*. 

It's kinda like my local train system. 40+ years ago, the transportation authority bought into a new system which uses a new track technology.

Fast forward 40 years, and it's been a nightmare because nothing new is made for it, so everything we want to upgrade means completely custom (read: expensive), and it has inherent flaws...but we're stuck with the inferior system, until everyone is willing to put up with the nightmare that would come with replacing all of the track.

I have a feeling this is one of the main reasons that haven't invested in any sort of visual builder: it doesn't make sense for them to invest in it unless it sync with internal systems and spit out a usable spec that could be ordered from.


----------



## diagrammatiks

man that crackle in the gis looks really good.
not too expensive either.

it's not like they have more options then a suhr or an anderson.
once you pick the body style there's not that much stuff there.
lot's of builders get this process done fine.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I still don't understand the hate for them offering something, but saying that they will do it for you if you really want it, but it's yours.
> 
> What's the alternative? Not offering it.
> 
> I've used this metaphor before, but it's no different than a steakhouse menu that says they aren't responsible for someone not liking a well-done-cooked steak.



my point is, there's no recourse if they mess it up. there are plenty of examples of a problem being kiesels fault but won't accept a return because "no 10 day trial." Also, Jeff is charging a lot for the crackles, and they are standard options. When something is a non-op 50, we have the right to a 10 day trial. this whole "there are exceptions" thing is garbage.


----------



## soliloquy

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean shit dude. If you are the kind of person that has to have some sparkly paint, 5 piece exotic wood neck with a 1 piece burl beveled body. Maybe go guitarless?
> What else do they do that no one else can do.




features i'm looking for:
single cut 
hog bod
maple top
hollowed body
24 frets
ebony board
no inlays
stainless steel frets with 12' radius
upper access
no binding (painting binding is fine)
bone nut
chunky neck (preferably thicker than the gibson 50's but close to 50's is good too)
solid color
black painted binding. 


the neck being thicker will be non returnable
painted binding will be non returnable


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Never get anything that is non-returnable. You're just asking for trouble by doing that.


----------



## soliloquy

/\ i agree. as such, i'm not going to deal with carvin/kiesel any longer. trading my ct424 for a les paul soon. as soon as thats done, i would be as far from carvin/kiesel as possible, and happy for it too.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

soliloquy said:


> /\ i agree. as such, i'm not going to deal with carvin/kiesel any longer. trading my ct424 for a les paul soon. as soon as thats done, i would be as far from carvin/kiesel as possible, and happy for it too.



i cant deny that my carvin jb200 is one of the best guitars I've ever played and tonally the most diverse guitar I have. that said, I play my ibanezes a LOT more now.


----------



## Shask

Shask said:


> Hardly anything in guitar making is original. Pretty much everything is variations on ideas that have been done before, all that really separates brands is the combinations of specs they use.
> 
> I am not saying I love Kiesel, or their policies or anything, but you wonder why people would use them? I say that is a big reason why.... you can get combinations of specs that rarely anyone else uses. You are not going to get a 25" scale, c-shape neck, superstrat shape, with Hipshot bridge from PRS. They just don't do that.



Well, I learned today that Kiesel removed the 25" option on the DC600, and now the standard scale is 25.5"

So, screw 'em 

Sad to see them changing their models to be similar to what everyone else is doing.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Shask said:


> Well, I learned today that Kiesel removed the 25" option on the DC600, and now the standard scale is 25.5"
> 
> So, screw 'em
> 
> Sad to see them changing their models to be similar to what everyone else is doing.




WHAT? More erasing history, all because of Jeff's ego. Jesus christ.


----------



## technomancer

Current Kiesel irritation: building guitars specifically for in-stocks that are non-returnable. I get it for some things on a custom order even if I don't like it, but it makes zero sense when Kiesel is building the guitar specifically as an in-stock.

Also why are crackles and sparkles non-returnable to begin with? Custom base finish for one of those I can see, like the tri-color crackle one they had at NAMM, but a standard finish? Why?



Shask said:


> Well, I learned today that Kiesel removed the 25" option on the DC600, and now the standard scale is 25.5"
> 
> So, screw 'em
> 
> Sad to see them changing their models to be similar to what everyone else is doing.



I suspect you are going to see more of this to lower production costs. For example the Zeus and Osiris have a lot of options available, but really they are both the same guitar except for the body shape so necks are identical and they would have shared a large amount of the CNC programming for the bodies.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I asked the same thing: Why are crackles standard options but non-returnable? They are just trying to steal money from people while they can, and it's ALL Jeff deciding these things.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> I asked the same thing: Why are crackles standard options but non-returnable? They are just trying to steal money from people while they can, and it's ALL Jeff deciding these things.


As someone who likes Kiesel, this is something that actually pisses me off. Why the hell are crackle, sparkle and even more irritating raw tone finishes non-returnable. I mean I guess I get the sparkle since it's not a standard, but raw tone?? Why?? It makes no sense to me.


----------



## bostjan

Kiesel might as well just drop their return policy altogether. If you built something for regular stock to hope someone just happens to come along and buy it, but don't accept returns on it, you're really at that point anyway.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> As someone who likes Kiesel, this is something that actually pisses me off. Why the hell are crackle, sparkle and even more irritating raw tone finishes non-returnable. I mean I guess I get the sparkle since it's not a standard, but raw tone?? Why?? It makes no sense to me.



I like my carvin and i like my v220, even with it's faults because it's an original looking design. I also really like Chris, he's a good guy. All my complaints with the company came because of Jeff taking the lead on decisions and making so many decisions to benefit his own ego stroking and shitting on fans who were there before the split. I think almost all of my complaints have been very carefully targeted at Jeff and his stupid decisions.

So here are the list of my overall complaints of his decisions:

-Killing the 22 pole piece line
-MAJOR price increases on the V types, when he bitches that they don't sell well (even though he NEVER promotes them)
-Focus on headless. There's a reason Steinberger went out of business and got bought out by Gibson. It's a niche market.
-New pickups all sound like they are geared for Djent, downtuned bleh. No all around pickup now that the 22 pole piece pups are gone.
-Killing off old lines and replacing them with niche market models.
-Focus on fancy woods and not Quality control or showing off what SIMPLE things they can do (I dont need a bunch of overpriced woods, give me solid colors with a plain maple board ANY day of the week).
-Making standard options NON-RETURNABLE. WTF is this shit?

Due to all of these decisions, it's not even worth it to buy a Kiesel as an international customer anymore. If I have to buy pickups just to replace the crap that he dumps in there stock, it makes it so expensive for me or any other person who hates the Lithiums/berylliums/whatevers. I could just buy another reissue RG550, buy pups and still be WAY under the cost of a Kiesel now.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> I like my carvin and i like my v220, even with it's faults because it's an original looking design. I also really like Chris, he's a good guy. All my complaints with the company came because of Jeff taking the lead on decisions and making so many decisions to benefit his own ego stroking and shitting on fans who were there before the split. I think almost all of my complaints have been very carefully targeted at Jeff and his stupid decisions.
> 
> So here are the list of my overall complaints of his decisions:
> 
> -Killing the 22 pole piece line
> -MAJOR price increases on the V types, when he bitches that they don't sell well (even though he NEVER promotes them)
> -Focus on headless. There's a reason Steinberger went out of business and got bought out by Gibson. It's a niche market.
> -New pickups all sound like they are geared for Djent, downtuned bleh. No all around pickup now that the 22 pole piece pups are gone.
> -Killing off old lines and replacing them with niche market models.
> -Focus on fancy woods and not Quality control or showing off what SIMPLE things they can do (I dont need a bunch of overpriced woods, give me solid colors with a plain maple board ANY day of the week).
> -Making standard options NON-RETURNABLE. WTF is this shit?
> 
> Due to all of these decisions, it's not even worth it to buy a Kiesel as an international customer anymore. If I have to buy pickups just to replace the crap that he dumps in there stock, it makes it so expensive for me or any other person who hates the Lithiums/berylliums/whatevers. I could just buy another reissue RG550, buy pups and still be WAY under the cost of a Kiesel now.


To be fair, a couple of these can be answered.

_"Killing the 22 pole piece line"_
If anything, this is even more niche than what the normal consumer wants.

_"New pickups all sound like they are geared for Djent, downtuned bleh. No all around pickup now that the 22 pole piece pups are gone."_
They answered this problem with their new line of pickups they just announced called Beryllium pickups. 
_
"Killing off old lines and replacing them with niche market models."_
Sales numbers most likely speak otherwise. Same goes with the V's. If you are a close follower of their shop, you would see that their newer models (especially the aries) have sold a lot better than their original models. They kept them both for a while, but in the end the newer ones had better sales numbers.


----------



## Shask

technomancer said:


> Current Kiesel irritation:
> 
> I suspect you are going to see more of this to lower production costs. For example the Zeus and Osiris have a lot of options available, but really they are both the same guitar except for the body shape so necks are identical and they would have shared a large amount of the CNC programming for the bodies.



Yeah, I understand condensing options to improve production.... However, they have 25.5" and 26.5" as options. How hard is it to include 25" as an option? Its not like they haven't had the CNC program written for a decade now. If you are going to include a new option, why not include the legacy option as well? It is not like it is a dramatic option that makes them have a ton new production options. Their other guitars (like the set neck CT models and such) are still 25"...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> To be fair, a couple of these can be answered.
> 
> _"Killing the 22 pole piece line"_
> If anything, this is even more niche than what the normal consumer wants.
> 
> _"New pickups all sound like they are geared for Djent, downtuned bleh. No all around pickup now that the 22 pole piece pups are gone."_
> They answered this problem with their new line of pickups they just announced called Beryllium pickups.
> _
> "Killing off old lines and replacing them with niche market models."_
> Sales numbers most likely speak otherwise. Same goes with the V's. If you are a close follower of their shop, you would see that their newer models (especially the aries) have sold a lot better than their original models. They kept them both for a while, but in the end the newer ones had better sales numbers.



The berylliums are NOT an answer. They are vintage voiced, not in the sweet spot. Also it doesn't help that the demo they posted gave like ZERO tones that I would need to make any sort of decision on whether the pickups actually meet my needs or not.

When you are constantly promoting a model, people buy into the hype. Jeff could easily put a little effort into marketing other models but he doesn't. If you dont even try to create a buzzm no one will buy the product. Simple understanding of marketing can teach you that.

As for killing the 22 pole piece lines: The M22SD is like 40 years old this year. They did just fine for 39 years, then all of a sudden they are gone.


----------



## feraledge

So at this point, based on a number of customer-service-fumbles-turned-policy can we say what the definitive return policy is?? No new options, it's in the "fine print" on runs, complaints get you banned from future purchases, failed color matches? So if you order a guitar with standard options is the 10-day no hassle option even still a thing?


----------



## Cynicanal

MatiasTolkki said:


> So here are the list of my overall complaints of his decisions:
> 
> -Killing the 22 pole piece line


Mark's decision, not Jeff's. Notice the timing with respect to a certain other company that made a lot of their electronics going out of business; I suspect their hand was forced.


> -New pickups all sound like they are geared for Djent, downtuned bleh. No all around pickup now that the 22 pole piece pups are gone.


Beryllium, Holdsworth, Parallax.


> -Killing off old lines and replacing them with niche market models.


Maybe you haven't noticed, but the custom companies that are thriving are the ones focusing in that direction. Why would the little guy want to compete with Ibanez?


> -Making standard options NON-RETURNABLE. WTF is this shit?


How is them adding a standard option and making it non-returnable any less preferable to keeping it secret off-menu like they would in the past?


----------



## Cynicanal

What can I say? I think bandwagoning a company based on someone throwing a fit when they wouldn't order a new bridge and change a guitar's design just for him and another guy who's just salty that he got banned from their official forums is really dumb.

EDIT: and now that the post above mine has been deleted, this post is pointless. Oh well.


----------



## Albake21

Cynicanal said:


> What can I say? I think bandwagoning a company based on someone throwing a fit when they wouldn't order a new bridge and change a guitar's design just for him and another guy who's just salty that he got banned from their official forums is really dumb.
> 
> EDIT: and now that the post above mine has been deleted, this post is pointless. Oh well.


Personally I agree, but I seem to be in a very tiny minority.


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> What can I say? I think bandwagoning a company based on someone throwing a fit when they wouldn't order a new bridge and change a guitar's design just for him and another guy who's just salty that he got banned from their official forums is really dumb.
> 
> EDIT: and now that the post above mine has been deleted, this post is pointless. Oh well.



I don't think those are the reasons people are bandwagoning. And bandwagoning implies that a lot of people are against Kiesel. That's like the "war on Christians." The fact is, the vast, vast majority of people support Kiesel. There are some who despise them, and will say anything negative about them. And then there are a lot of us, me included, who are critical of them because we like the company, own instruments from them, but don't like the direction they're going, or the attitude of their leader. I don't think there's any reason people can't harp on what they feel are mistakes. Your line by line refute of complaints makes it appear that no criticism can be made without an explanation of how that's an invalid argument. Yet, you know that there are clearly dropped ball opportunities in customer service that Kiesel has made. And there are far more than there were with Mark in charge. I don't think it's wrong at all to discuss these mistakes on a forum, and wish that they would get better in the future. Shoot, if I were Jeff I'd be on here looking for this feedback actively. People pay large sums of money for consultants to help them figure out how to increase their brand reputation. Jeff has 63 pages (on my forum setting) of free advice.


----------



## V_man

Cynicanal said:


> What can I say? I think bandwagoning a company based on someone throwing a fit when they wouldn't order a new bridge and change a guitar's design just for him and another guy who's just salty that he got banned from their official forums is really dumb.
> 
> EDIT: and now that the post above mine has been deleted, this post is pointless. Oh well.



I think kiesel is garbage because they treat customers like garbage. They can have all the bridges and designs in the world but they are only garbage. If you like to be insulted by someone selling you something then you are relly dumb.


----------



## Avedas

The only Kiesel I'd be interested in at this point is the NS1. But that doesn't really matter because importing a Kiesel sounds like a major migraine.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Mark's decision, not Jeff's. Notice the timing with respect to a certain other company that made a lot of their electronics going out of business; I suspect their hand was forced.
> 
> Beryllium, Holdsworth, Parallax.
> 
> Maybe you haven't noticed, but the custom companies that are thriving are the ones focusing in that direction. Why would the little guy want to compete with Ibanez?
> 
> How is them adding a standard option and making it non-returnable any less preferable to keeping it secret off-menu like they would in the past?



1. I dont believe for a fact that it was Mark's decision. Knowing how Jeff is, he probably talked his dad into it, so he could use that as an out for his dumb decisions.

2. Focusing on djent? Then they aren't worth the business. Djent is not all there is to music, and the fact that they pander to only that side of music is insulting. One of the big up and coming metal bands is Twilight force, which one of the guitar players uses a Bluey. They play melodic speed metal, and they easily have more talent than any of those djent losers. On top of that? The guitarist uses the M22 pups, AND active electronics, both things Jeff threw out with the bathwater in the past couple years.

3. You missed my point ENTIRELY. If it's a standard option, it shouldn't be non-returnable, which is how it always was before. Now, buy a standard option "Oops no 10-day trial." That's unfair to the consumer.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> What can I say? I think bandwagoning a company based on someone throwing a fit when they wouldn't order a new bridge and change a guitar's design just for him and another guy who's just salty that he got banned from their official forums is really dumb.
> 
> EDIT: and now that the post above mine has been deleted, this post is pointless. Oh well.



i'm not bandwagoning, and I dont care that I was banned. I am pointing out flaws in the company that I have seen, and I have praised them when I felt they needed praise. I guess that means something if I am upset about a lot of the new models and/or lack of options. You dont have to deal with international sales, what's the point of a 10 day trial if all the options are non-returnable anyway? If I even think of getting one again, I have to consider the cost of a pickup replacement, and that is stupidly expensive here in Japan. What Jeff did buy killing off all those pup options is make it a FAR more expensive deal to order a Kiesel, and took away the biggest reason I was into them: Cost performance. Get a great guitar for a reasonable price. Guess what? Those prices (including pup replacements) now go into Ibanez J custom territory, and if I even considered any sort of figured woods, I'm into ESP top line territory.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> I don't think those are the reasons people are bandwagoning. And bandwagoning implies that a lot of people are against Kiesel. That's like the "war on Christians." The fact is, the vast, vast majority of people support Kiesel. There are some who despise them, and will say anything negative about them. And then there are a lot of us, me included, who are critical of them because we like the company, own instruments from them, but don't like the direction they're going, or the attitude of their leader. I don't think there's any reason people can't harp on what they feel are mistakes. Your line by line refute of complaints makes it appear that no criticism can be made without an explanation of how that's an invalid argument. Yet, you know that there are clearly dropped ball opportunities in customer service that Kiesel has made. And there are far more than there were with Mark in charge. I don't think it's wrong at all to discuss these mistakes on a forum, and wish that they would get better in the future. Shoot, if I were Jeff I'd be on here looking for this feedback actively. People pay large sums of money for consultants to help them figure out how to increase their brand reputation. Jeff has 63 pages (on my forum setting) of free advice.


Nah, there's plenty of criticisms that can be made against them (you'll note, I didn't disagree with him on the V-shapes). But a lot of the ones that are getting thrown around here are really unreasonable. And you can't deny that in every single Kiesel thread there's a million people jumping in just to post "lol Kiesel sux".



MatiasTolkki said:


> 1. I dont believe for a fact that it was Mark's decision. Knowing how Jeff is, he probably talked his dad into it, so he could use that as an out for his dumb decisions.


Nope. There's a very valid reason why they're not discussing their reason for discontinuing the 22 pole-piece pickups, but it's pretty obvious if you think about it. Here's a hint -- they knew Carvin Audio was going under several months in advance, and that's the sort of thing you're not allowed to talk about openly. Another hint -- Carvin Audio still made a lot of their parts, even after the split. Including their active electronics module...



> 2. Focusing on djent? Then they aren't worth the business. Djent is not all there is to music, and the fact that they pander to only that side of music is insulting. One of the big up and coming metal bands is Twilight force, which one of the guitar players uses a Bluey. They play melodic speed metal, and they easily have more talent than any of those djent losers. On top of that? The guitarist uses the M22 pups, AND active electronics, both things Jeff threw out with the bathwater in the past couple years.


_Every_ guitar company that's making money is focusing on djent, technical buttcore, and other assorted nonsense. That's the segment of younger people that are buying guitars. Twilight Force? Call me when they have a single video with as many hits as a random Jared Dines gimmick video. That's where the music industry is right now, and instrument companies have no choice but to adapt or die.



> 3. You missed my point ENTIRELY. If it's a standard option, it shouldn't be non-returnable, which is how it always was before. Now, buy a standard option "Oops no 10-day trial." That's unfair to the consumer.


In the past, they've had lots of "common/named Op. 50" stuff (time was, Nightburst and Dragonburst fell into this category, as did several of the racing colors). That's where stuff like Crackle Finish would have gone in the past. There's no way that a buyer is going to be surprised that something is nonreturnable; if you buy a nonreturnable build, it has "NO 10 DAY TRIAL ON THIS INSTRUMENT" in huge letters at the bottom of the invoice. The only difference is that they're letting people know that these options exist outside of a small number of people who congregate on a single message board.

(Also, M22s are still available; they haven't run out of parts yet. Look at the timing on them running out of parts for the A60/70/80 and then introducing the Fishman or them running out of S22 parts and then immediately introducing the new pickup covers and the Beryllium. They're not trying to remove options; this was something forced on them. And I don't know how you'd even spec out a Kiesel that's near the price of a JCustom + a set of pickups, holy crap. No one is spending $3,000 on a Kiesel.)


----------



## feraledge

Cynicanal said:


> And I don't know how you'd even spec out a Kiesel that's near the price of a JCustom + a set of pickups, holy crap. No one is spending $3,000 on a Kiesel.)


https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitarsinstock/electric-guitars
See for yourself. Most are near or well over $2000 and a bunch over $3k, some WAY over. 

Oh wait, I mean lol Kiesel sux


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> (Also, M22s are still available; they haven't run out of parts yet. Look at the timing on them running out of parts for the A60/70/80 and then introducing the Fishman or them running out of S22 parts and then immediately introducing the new pickup covers and the Beryllium. They're not trying to remove options; this was something forced on them. And I don't know how you'd even spec out a Kiesel that's near the price of a JCustom + a set of pickups, holy crap. No one is spending $3,000 on a Kiesel.)



Low end J customs cost 240,000 yen, sometimes less, depending on the model. You know how much my V220, as spec'ed as when i got it, costs now? 1879 dollars. According to the exchange rate right now (106 yen=1 USD), that's 201,000 yen. Now let's add in the cost of pickups. I'll go with the cheapest readily available in Japan, a new set of Dimarzios. The cheapest you'll ever find them is 7000 yen per pup (lots of variation in dimarzio pup prices, and Duncans are stupidly expensive, 10,000+ per pup). That's 14,000. Total cost now: 215,000. I've seen J customs go for that cheap in the past on sale at Ikebe. 

This is why you dont understand what you're talking about when it comes to prices. Hell, even at 215,000, i can buy TWO of the new RG550s and at least be happy with the pickups in them (literally 2 rg550s would come out to just about 215,000). Now do you understand why what Jeff has done has basically made Kiesels not be as attractive as they once were?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Well well, look at this:

https://www.ikebe-gakki.com/ec/pro/disp/1/561101

and this 7 string:

https://www.ikebe-gakki.com/ec/pro/disp/1/562422

Brand new J customs for cheaper than my V220 at current prices.


----------



## Cynicanal

That first one has a Tone Zone in the bridge, which would be an instant PU change for a whole lot of people (including me). That second one is $10 cheaper... but it's also on clearance sale (so is the first, actually). True, you'll never get a new Kiesel at clearance prices, but you'll never get a JCustom on clearance price outside of Japan, either.


----------



## spudmunkey

The whole "they're making standard options non-returnable... They're taking away options!" argument is frankly ridiculous. They've never had a bigger selection of, not only options you can return, but even free options, like adding more no-charge solid colors than they have ever had before. They have no less than SIXTEEN free solid colors, and while prices do periodically go up, the base price of every model now includes stainless steel Frets, which let's face it 90% of us got anyways, and also includes $100 in free options to spend as you choose... So even if you upgraded nothing else from the maple neck Alder body and Ebony fretboard, which let's face it, is about on par or better than what you get as standard with most other companies in this price range, but you at least triple or even quintuple the number of finish options when you have$100 more to play with (ok, $60 after you get a tung oil neck... Unless you get a bolt on where it's included)...

Someone posted above that they "just wanted a solid color on a maple fretboard and [they'd] be happy!" Well good news... They could build that for you all day everyday. Making some new finishes you aren't going to get anyways non-returnable doesn't affect you in the slightest. Except for maybe the fact that those finishes are likely more profitable, and perhaps maybe even subsidizedthe lower-cost models... Granted, that's just speculation, but lots of companies do that.

You can shit on their customer service all you want, but creating an entire new class of upgrades and options for those that want them, while still retaining an enormous catalog, and ever-growing mind you, of options that are returnable, seems like a strange thing to be so upset about. Yes, their raw tone finish is not returnable. You know what is? The gloss, satin, and tung oil finishes they have been offering for decades. Yes, the new crackle finishes are non-returnable... Do you know what is? Literally hundreds if not thousands of combinations of more woods and colors than they have ever offered before. Hell, just ten years ago when I bought my first Carvin, they wouldn't even put satin finish over paint or any colors. My CS6 has a clear satin neck, even though the whole rest of the back and sides are painted gloss black. It was not an option then. Now, doing satin over just about any of their finishes seems to almost be approaching half of what they are building.


----------



## feraledge

Cynicanal said:


> That first one has a Tone Zone in the bridge, which would be an instant PU change for a whole lot of people (including me). That second one is $10 cheaper... but it's also on clearance sale (so is the first, actually). True, you'll never get a new Kiesel at clearance prices, but you'll never get a JCustom on clearance price outside of Japan, either.


Signed up today, all four posts in this thread saying demonstrably untrue things in defense of Kiesel and then just shifting. So, how's office life at Kiesel these days? 
To side step this contradiction of your own point, you start out talking about PUPs? C'mon, that's hilarious. 
Also, note that this forum is global, the person you are responding to is from Japan. The world isn't America and once outside of these borders, the economics around getting a MIA guitar shift drastically and it's competing at a different price point. Not hard to figure out.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> That first one has a Tone Zone in the bridge, which would be an instant PU change for a whole lot of people (including me). That second one is $10 cheaper... but it's also on clearance sale (so is the first, actually). True, you'll never get a new Kiesel at clearance prices, but you'll never get a JCustom on clearance price outside of Japan, either.



And that is why you fail. -Yoda

I specifically mentioned Japan in my post, and my own situation as an example of the costs involved in getting a kiesel. Japan is one of the cheaper places as we don't have VAT to deal with. Would be much more expensive in someplace like Australia.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

feraledge said:


> Signed up today, all four posts in this thread saying demonstrably untrue things in defense of Kiesel and then just shifting. So, how's office life at Kiesel these days?
> To side step this contradiction of your own point, you start out talking about PUPs? C'mon, that's hilarious.
> Also, note that this forum is global, the person you are responding to is from Japan. The world isn't America and once outside of these borders, the economics around getting a MIA guitar shift drastically and it's competing at a different price point. Not hard to figure out.



to be fair, I just live in Japan, I immigrated from the US 12 years ago


----------



## Cynicanal

feraledge said:


> Signed up today, all four posts in this thread saying demonstrably untrue things in defense of Kiesel and then just shifting. So, how's office life at Kiesel these days?
> To side step this contradiction of your own point, you start out talking about PUPs? C'mon, that's hilarious.
> Also, note that this forum is global, the person you are responding to is from Japan. The world isn't America and once outside of these borders, the economics around getting a MIA guitar shift drastically and it's competing at a different price point. Not hard to figure out.


You'll note that Matias was the one who brought up PUPs as the reason a JCustom was a better deal than a Kiesel.

And yes, I'm well aware that he's Japanese, watching him go from the biggest fan of the company into more and more absurd hatred after getting banned from the Kiesel forum until he successfully made me "WTF" so hard with a post is actually the reason I joined.

But I agree, buying a Kiesel outside of the U.S. is probably not a great idea -- in Europe, a Mayo makes a lot more sense, and in Japan, it looks like a JCustom does (although I'd probably go Caparison over Ibby, provided that they exhibit a similar price-bump in the U.S.). Likewise, buying a Mayo or JCustom in the U.S. is madness.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Cynicanal said:


> I'm well aware that he's Japanese, watching him go from the biggest fan of the company into more and more absurd hatred after getting banned from the Kiesel forum until he successfully made me "WTF" so hard with a post is actually the reason I joined.



This doesn’t seem like good mental health. I hope you’re not planning any justice-themed trips to Japan in the near future.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> This doesn’t seem like good mental health. I hope you’re not planning any justice-themed trips to Japan in the near future.



i started on ibanez, and was very pro-kiesel. business decisions since the split made me question the direction of the company, but also Jeffs constant Japan bashing began pissing me off. the pups were the nail in the coffin.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

MatiasTolkki said:


> i started on ibanez, and was very pro-kiesel. business decisions since the split made me question the direction of the company, but also Jeffs constant Japan bashing began pissing me off. the pups were the nail in the coffin.



No, no - I was referring to the guy bragging that he registered because he was stalking you after you turned on the brand.

Some posters deserve awards for donning the devil’s advocate glasses (which has “WRONG” printed on each lens):



spudmunkey said:


> The whole "they're making standard options non-returnable... They're taking away options!" argument is frankly ridiculous.



Cool. Let’s see if what immediately follows supports the immediately preceding claim:



spudmunkey said:


> They've never had a bigger selection of, not only options you can return, but even free options, like adding more no-charge solid colors than they have ever had before. They have no less than SIXTEEN free solid colors



If anyone else reading this believes (anywhere near as earnestly) that this is how this business model works, you may want to keep that to yourself. It’s awful that someone would have to explain this:

Kiesel’s online builder template starts with a base price. This base price includes Kiesel’s overhead (parts and labor) and the profit margin they feel their branding can get away with. The base price includes a mock-up of hardware, a particular wood combination, and the labor costs of building and painting according to the simplest options (one piece necks, solid color paints, etc.).

When you go through the builder and see options listed for zero dollars, you are not getting those options for FREEEE!!!

The costs of those options are merely already accounted for in the baseline cost; and do not increase the labor or parts overhead the way going off-spec with multilaminate necks and figured tops with bukkake-burst K series options do.

Truth be told, those don’t contribute too heavily to Kiesel’s overhead, either: They are priced to increase Kiesel’s profit margins. In fact, the higher the cost of the option (such as a $200 upcharge for choosing a veneer of a different wood species than what’s been set as the default in the builder template), the more of that premium is profit. Grabbing a top from one of the other wood piles simply does not cost that much to anyone but the end-buyer willing to pay it.



spudmunkey said:


> and while prices do periodically go up, the base price of every model now includes stainless steel Frets, which let's face it 90% of us got anyways, and also includes $100 in free options to spend as you choose.



The cost of the materials constituting the frets on a 24 fret guitar neck is _pennies, _regardless of whether the alloy is nickel-silver, stainless dog turd, or frozen gravy. Kiesel isn’t buying their stainless fretwire off an eBay Jescar retailer; and so isn’t paying much more for stainless wire than nickel-silver. And don’t come back at me with anecdotal stuff about how much “harder” stainless is to work with or how it trashes tools. It’s not a value-added feature in that respect.

It _is _value-added in terms of durability. Kiesel has switched to stainless frets for the same reason anyone else has: Fewer warranty claims were observed in a market test period comparing warranty claims for softer frets vs warranty claims for harder frets.

They made the switch because it only makes sense to. But that doesn’t read quite as hyperbolically noble.

Concerning the “$100 in free options”? Most of that goes toward the mandatory case purchase that isn’t included in the listed base price. So if you go with a $59.99 case, you really only get $30 in “free” options that were...once again, already figured into the base price. And most of us used that $30 to get stainless frets - Which really puts the preceding point about the generosity of the fret upgrade into perspective.



spudmunkey said:


> So even if you upgraded nothing else from the maple neck Alder body and Ebony fretboard, which let's face it, is about on par or better than what you get as standard with most other companies in this price range, but you at least triple or even quintuple the number of finish options when you have$100 more to play with (ok, $60 after you get a tung oil neck... Unless you get a bolt on where it's included)...



Even more trivia about what’s included in the base price. Yes: The custom shop lets you choose what your neck is sprayed with, and you may have to pay for it. What a generous innovation.



spudmunkey said:


> Someone posted above that they "just wanted a solid color on a maple fretboard and [they'd] be happy!" Well good news... They could build that for you all day everyday.



The good news is the custom shop is willing to do what people are willing to pay extra for (other than when they’re not, anyway). Do they take returns and offer refunds for that option if they screw it up and send it out anyway?



spudmunkey said:


> Making some new finishes you aren't going to get anyways non-returnable doesn't affect you in the slightest. Except for maybe the fact that those finishes are likely more profitable, and perhaps maybe even *subsidizedthe* lower-cost models... Granted, that's just speculation, but lots of companies do that.



I don’t know what you think you’re saying, but it reads as responding with “fuck you for wanting a non-returnable option - You get what you deserve” to the question of why Kiesel lists some paint jobs and not others as non refundable and then promotes the non-refundable finishes over the others without elaboration.



spudmunkey said:


> You can shit on their customer service all you want, but creating an entire new class of upgrades and options for those that want them, while still retaining an enormous catalog, and ever-growing mind you, of options that are returnable, seems like a strange thing to be so upset about. Yes, their raw tone finish is not returnable. You know what is? The gloss, satin, and tung oil finishes they have been offering for decades. Yes, the new crackle finishes are non-returnable... Do you know what is? Literally hundreds if not thousands of combinations of more woods and colors than they have ever offered before. Hell, just ten years ago when I bought my first Carvin, they wouldn't even put satin finish over paint or any colors. My CS6 has a clear satin neck, even though the whole rest of the back and sides are painted gloss black. It was not an option then. Now, doing satin over just about any of their finishes seems to almost be approaching half of what they are building.



Just because “don’t ask why rawtone and crackle are non-refundable when ten years ago we wouldn’t put satin over paint” isn’t the official reason doesn’t make presenting it as an unofficial reason seem any less nonsensical.

You bought a guitar ten years ago? Trivia.

They wouldn’t put satin over paint? Trivia.

That whole diatribe is a sad, flailing ejaculation of brain diarrhea intended to shit on fair questions posed by non-fanboys. You are presenting yourself as an ambassador for the brand, qualified by ownership of some premium products and a loose grasp on what “free” means in marketing said premium products; offering some perverted form of damage control by fielding every question a hypothetical buyer may ask about a confusing and seemingly arbitrary list of conditionally priced and refundable premiums with variations on “Fuck you, that’s why. Don’t buy the ticket if you don’t want to be taken for the ride.”

The only question I have after reading your breakdown of why things cost what they do is: What is it that you do for a living?


----------



## Cynicanal

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> The good news is the custom shop is willing to do what people are willing to pay extra for (other than when they’re not, anyway). Do they take returns and offer refunds for that option if they screw it up and send it out anyway?


Uh, yes? Standard solid color + maple board is definitely returnable. Oh, and a build being nonreturnable doesn't void the warranty, so if they screw the build up, they still should offer to fix it according to their terms (admittedly, I have no experience as to whether or not they honor this, but that's just another good reason to avoid non-returnable builds).



> I don’t know what you think you’re saying, but it reads as responding with “fuck you for wanting a non-returnable option - You get what you deserve” to the question of why Kiesel lists some paint jobs and not others as non refundable and then promotes the non-refundable finishes over the others without elaboration.


If you don't want to buy a non-returnable instrument (which you shouldn't, buying a non-returnable Kiesel is really silly IMO), how does it effect you that there's an additional Raw Tone or Crackle or whatever else option that isn't returnable when the other option is them not offering it at all?

The only difference between how they're handling Raw Tone/Crackle/Buckeye Burl/etc. now vs. the Opt. 50 finishes (Nightburst, Dragonburst, most of the "Racing" solid colors, etc.) in the Carvin days is that they're letting people that aren't on a single small message board know they exist. Oh, and that a lot of those old Opt. 50 finishes are now standard and returnable options. There's that, too.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> You'll note that Matias was the one who brought up PUPs as the reason a JCustom was a better deal than a Kiesel.
> 
> And yes, I'm well aware that he's Japanese, watching him go from the biggest fan of the company into more and more absurd hatred after getting banned from the Kiesel forum until he successfully made me "WTF" so hard with a post is actually the reason I joined.
> 
> But I agree, buying a Kiesel outside of the U.S. is probably not a great idea -- in Europe, a Mayo makes a lot more sense, and in Japan, it looks like a JCustom does (although I'd probably go Caparison over Ibby, provided that they exhibit a similar price-bump in the U.S.). Likewise, buying a Mayo or JCustom in the U.S. is madness.



you DO realize caparisons starting price point is that of a top line ESP, right? Also, nice dodge on my point of cost performance. I can now get an MIJ Ibanez, with the best trem on the market, for less than any bare bones kiesel bolt.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Uh, yes? Standard solid color + maple board is definitely returnable. Oh, and a build being nonreturnable doesn't void the warranty, so if they screw the build up, they still should offer to fix it according to their terms (admittedly, I have no experience as to whether or not they honor this, but that's just another good reason to avoid non-returnable builds).
> 
> 
> If you don't want to buy a non-returnable instrument (which you shouldn't, buying a non-returnable Kiesel is really silly IMO), how does it effect you that there's an additional Raw Tone or Crackle or whatever else option that isn't returnable when the other option is them not offering it at all?
> 
> The only difference between how they're handling Raw Tone/Crackle/Buckeye Burl/etc. now vs. the Opt. 50 finishes (Nightburst, Dragonburst, most of the "Racing" solid colors, etc.) in the Carvin days is that they're letting people that aren't on a single small message board know they exist.



because if an option is "standard,"
it isn't supposed to void the 10 day warranty. the split allowed numbnuts Jeff to start doing that shit, and it's unfair to the consumer.


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> And I don't know how you'd even spec out a Kiesel that's near the price of a JCustom + a set of pickups, holy crap. No one is spending $3,000 on a Kiesel.)



Lot's of Kiesels are ~$3k these days. It used to be $2k was a decked out Carvin, now $2k is pretty much where a decently cool one starts and Jeff has managed to push it up to $3-5k with some simple options. At times there will be a good number in the in stocks.

That said, not sure why we're comparing these things. Decked out J-customs are often in the $4-6k range, so both brands have their more basic range and their more exploratory models.


----------



## Cynicanal

MatiasTolkki said:


> you DO realize caparisons starting price point is that of a top line ESP, right? Also, nice dodge on my point of cost performance. I can now get an MIJ Ibanez, with the best trem on the market, for less than any bare bones kiesel bolt.


I have no idea what Caparisons cost in Japan. They run about the same price as JCustoms in the U.S, a little cheaper if anything (a local shop carries Dellingers for $2500, which is cheaper than you can get a JCustom for here).

"The best trem on the market" is actually a negative as far as I'm concerned, I prefer fixed bridge + neck through, and that's really hard to get from Ibby.



MatiasTolkki said:


> because if an option is "standard,"
> it isn't supposed to void the 10 day warranty. the split allowed numbnuts Jeff to start doing that shit, and it's unfair to the consumer.


The warranty is for 5 years, and it's for every instrument, "no 10-day trial" or not. The 10-day trial is a different thing. Again, how is it unfair that they're letting customers know about things that, in the Carvin years, would only be known to people that frequent a certain messageboard? Saying it's unfair does little to demonstrate that it is.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Cynicanal said:


> Uh, yes? Standard solid color + maple board is definitely returnable. Oh, and a build being nonreturnable doesn't void the warranty, so if they screw the build up, they still should offer to fix it according to their terms (admittedly, I have no experience as to whether or not they honor this, but that's just another good reason to avoid non-returnable builds).



I did a poor job there: The username I quoted seemed to be claiming that a potential customer already alienated by Kiesel’s shady behavior should just do business with them anyway, rather than worry about dubious spec disclaimers affecting orders other than their own - In short: shaming conscience itself. I clumsily tried to raise the point of asking what spunkmonday’s recommendation was worth in the event that any part of the process went less-than-perfect.



Cynicanal said:


> If you don't want to buy a non-returnable instrument (which you shouldn't, buying a non-returnable Kiesel is really silly IMO), how does it effect you that there's an additional Raw Tone or Crackle or whatever else option that isn't returnable when the other option is them not offering it at all?



What’s the strategy in pretending anyone wants fewer options? You already know this from reading and comprehending it in other posts, but I’ll reiterate: *People have a problem with a brand recently known for trying to dodge warranty claims and refunds announcing a series of non-refundable options*. The reaction to slimy behavior is to vote with one’s wallet - That is how they are affected, and the only recourse from fanboys seems to be pretending that conscientious objection doesn’t exist: “Why worry about [insert emotionally-charged contraband] you’re not going to buy?” 

The Kiesel defenders I’ve seen in the last page or two come off as disliking that this is a free discussion; and are essentially telling people to mind their own business. Or it could be that those quoting discussion and replying “how does it effect [sic] you! Don’t order it if you don’t like it!” embodies a sentiment I’m totally missing.



Cynicanal said:


> The only difference between how they're handling Raw Tone/Crackle/Buckeye Burl/etc. now vs. the Opt. 50 finishes (Nightburst, Dragonburst, most of the "Racing" solid colors, etc.) in the Carvin days is that they're letting people that aren't on a single small message board know they exist. Oh, and that a lot of those old Opt. 50 finishes are now standard and returnable options. There's that, too.



I agree, but contend those press releases include an implied disclaimer concerning Kiesel reserving the right to absolve themselves of any and all defects to do with builds that happen to include single-ended non-refundable aspects. I’d love to see them prove me wrong - Or even to do _anything _to reassure me about doing business with a guy who always looks like this:


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Lot's of Kiesels are ~$3k these days. It used to be $2k was a decked out Carvin, now $2k is pretty much where a decently cool one starts and Jeff has managed to push it up to $3-5k with some simple options. At times there will be a good number in the in stocks.
> 
> That said, not sure why we're comparing these things. Decked out J-customs are often in the $4-6k range, so both brands have their more basic range and their more exploratory models.



I was comparing price points. I'm perfectly happy with a simple RG550 in RFR, but the price point is so far lower than a Kiesel now that It's not a fair comparison. I've seen some nice flame tops on even lower range JCs that getting a kiesel isn't even an issue at this point.


----------



## Hollowway

@Cynicanal Are you sure about the pickups being discontinued because Carvin Audio was going under? That seems very speculative. I say that because Carvin Audio didn’t actually go under - they just pivoted away from amps. If Jeff knew the inside scoop, he’d have known that. And, Kiesel could easily outsource their pickup manufacturing. Making pickups is way easier than developing an entirely new trem as an outsourced product, which is what they did. 

Also, Kiesels are being specced and sold at $4000 and up routinely now. There are a number of them in stock currently. The cheaper builds are still possible, but it’s also possible to create an instrument that is far more expensive than ever before in their history. 

And the last point I’d make is that the djent instruments are not as huge as it would seem based on your estimation. We tend to get caught up on it in here, but most of the twenty-somethings I know are buying 6 string instruments - and a lot of PRS, Gibson, Fender stuff. Guitar Center has very few 7s and rarely 8s or multiscales in their actual stores. If selling those was necessary to survive in today’s market, you’d expect to see them represented in actual stores.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

On an unrelated note: Johnny Hiland was hanging out with jeff doing a live Q&A. Dude is a fantastic player


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> I was comparing price points. I'm perfectly happy with a simple RG550 in RFR, but the price point is so far lower than a Kiesel now that It's not a fair comparison. I've seen some nice flame tops on even lower range JCs that getting a kiesel isn't even an issue at this point.



But you're comparing not-custom to semi-custom. Very limited stock options vs. thousands. Generally conservative options vs. rather cutting-edge ones. So what's the point really? Like saying instead of a $2k Kiesel, you're content with $20 of booze.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

KnightBrolaire said:


> On an unrelated note: Johnny Hiland was hanging out with jeff doing a live Q&A. Dude is a fantastic player



Monster player. I thought it was odd when he kept pointing to the Kiesel logo and pronouncing it “Pee-Ar-Ess.”


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> @Cynicanal Are you sure about the pickups being discontinued because Carvin Audio was going under? That seems very speculative. I say that because Carvin Audio didn’t actually go under - they just pivoted away from amps. If Jeff knew the inside scoop, he’d have known that. And, Kiesel could easily outsource their pickup manufacturing. Making pickups is way easier than developing an entirely new trem as an outsourced product, which is what they did.


It's entirely speculative with regards to the M/C/S 22s, but it's not speculative that they had to discontinue some options (active modules) and find new sources for others (Piezo system) because of Carvin Audio going under, and they announced that they made a "final purchase" of parts for the 22 pole piece pickups at about the time when we now know that they knew that Carvin Audio was going under (shortly after Carvin announced they were done, Jeff mentioned that Kiesel had a few months warning, during which they found a new source for their Piezo system, and that this was the reason for discontinuing the active module). Furthermore, it wouldn't have been so easy for them to outsource their manufacturing -- they were still winding in house using components they were buying from their outside source, and those components were all _really_ far from the norm(the M22s and C22B have non-standard weirdly oversized A5 mags [not the same size as the common "Big Ceramics", either], smaller-than-standard bobbins, and a really unusual baseplate design on top of the obviously different polepieces -- getting another factory tooled up for that would be a nightmare).



> Also, Kiesels are being specced and sold at $4000 and up routinely now. There are a number of them in stock currently. The cheaper builds are still possible, but it’s also possible to create an instrument that is far more expensive than ever before in their history.


Yeah, I'm really surprised by the prices in GIS right now. I knew about the price increases, but my Ultra-V, which I consider pretty blinged-out (flame maple top, matching headstock overlay, streak-less ebony board, diamond inlays, black hardware) would still come in under $2000. I'd have never thought they'd go so hard on the "high-grade flame maple neck and colored flame maple fingerboard" nonsense (and a flame maple neck is a seriously terrible idea for a bunch of reasons).


----------



## Curt

Cynicanal said:


> I have no idea what Caparisons cost in Japan. They run about the same price as JCustoms in the U.S, a little cheaper if anything (a local shop carries Dellingers for $2500, which is cheaper than you can get a JCustom for here).
> 
> "The best trem on the market" is actually a negative as far as I'm concerned, I prefer fixed bridge + neck through, and that's really hard to get from Ibby.
> 
> 
> The warranty is for 5 years, and it's for every instrument, "no 10-day trial" or not. The 10-day trial is a different thing. Again, how is it unfair that they're letting customers know about things that, in the Carvin years, would only be known to people that frequent a certain messageboard? Saying it's unfair does little to demonstrate that it is.


Alright, I'm not one for internet beefs, except for in jest. But holy fucking shit dude, are you reading what you write? This man is explaining why he, himself, personally would choose a J Custom over a Kiesel these days, especially in light of all the customer service woes, and you still suggest that Kiesel is the better option hands down because YOU prefer a fixed bridge over a trem? Only shortly after going on a tangent about pricing in regions that you have no idea about. That is not how any of this works, and you're so busy caping for Kiesel that you aren't even beginning to think about saying to Matias "Yeah, sure man, whatever works for you." What possibly is there for you to gain in dragging this argument out? Honestly.


----------



## Cynicanal

I straight-up said that buying a Kiesel in Japan (EDIT: And Europe as well, just to be complete) is a bad idea, so I have no idea why you think I'm telling Matias that another Kiesel is better for him than another Ibby.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@Curt and the kicker is he should know I won't use a non-trem guitar


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> But you're comparing not-custom to semi-custom. Very limited stock options vs. thousands. Generally conservative options vs. rather cutting-edge ones. So what's the point really? Like saying instead of a $2k Kiesel, you're content with $20 of booze.



ummmm, they are both guitar companies; custom vs production line doesn't come into this discussion. price points are what matter and if i can get a nice looking production guitar for the same price as a custom and I'm happy with it, it doesn't matter if it's one of a kind or not.


----------



## pondman

crus by


----------



## Curt

Cynicanal said:


> I straight-up said that buying a Kiesel in Japan (EDIT: And Europe as well, just to be complete) is a bad idea, so I have no idea why you think I'm telling Matias that another Kiesel is better for him than another Ibby.


Right, but you keep talking about things that you would prefer, or not like, when talking about the value of them. You're trying to add value to Kiesel in conversation with a person that has very different tastes. When he says he'd rather an Ibanez J. Custom, why not leave it at that? Why prattle on about how you'd swap the pickups, or wouldn't like the trem? Seems to me that that's all a non-issue, and a complete aside from the points I've seen him make. And sure, with Kiesel you get those options. But you also get increasingly iffy customer support if things go south. With the J.Custom, you pretty much know 100% what you're getting. It's really nowhere near the gamble or even on the same end of the spectrum as Kiesel. Other than Matias stating his preference, I don't even know why the focus shifted to Kiesel Vs. Ibanez.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Curt said:


> Other than Matias stating his preference, I don't even know why the focus shifted to Kiesel Vs. Ibanez.



I mentioned Ibanez because of price points comparable to kiesel. Not my intention to make it a debate on quality, but when someone calls you out, gotta stand your ground.


----------



## Curt

MatiasTolkki said:


> I mentioned Ibanez because of price points comparable to kiesel. Not my intention to make it a debate on quality, but when someone calls you out, gotta stand your ground.


Fair enough. I really CBA to read that far back, just the past page or so, and a lot of the points brought up just seemed kind of out of place. Most of the issue I take with this guy really, is that it seems he came here more or less just to argue with you. And that doesn't sit well with me, makes me feel weird.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Curt said:


> Fair enough. I really CBA to read that far back, just the past page or so, and a lot of the points brought up just seemed kind of out of place. Most of the issue I take with this guy really, is that it seems he came here more or less just to argue with you. And that doesn't sit well with me, makes me feel weird.



Yeah, he only registered when he saw someone, who was very pro-carvin, turn away from the brand because livestream after livestream Jeff constantly bashing Non-USA made guitars finally got to me (this was my first turn away from Kiesel, those livestreams of him bashing Asian guitars). Then Jeff's explanation that "Oh I have a Toyota Tundra so I dont hate Japanese things" just rubbed me SOOOOOO wrong. Then the new models start rolling out; I see headless and that weak aries, which I had a chance to play an A6, and all of Jeff's pining on about "upper fret access" was full of shit. The thing that got me going hardcore, after all the being pissed about the previous two things, the discontinuation of the 22 pole piece pups. I had finally found the PERFECT tone from pickups; I can't get anything close to what the M22SD gives me in punch and tone combined... And he discontinues them after promising NOT to. The death of the JB200SC also REALLY pissed me off, especially considering the JB100 was NOT a shape Jason used and it looks like a modified Aries, which I already didn't like. My militant attitude on the kiesel forums over the pups is what got me banned btw.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> The death of the JB200SC also REALLY pissed me off, especially considering the JB100 was NOT a shape Jason used and it looks like a modified Aries, which I already didn't like.



The JB100 is what appears to be the same shape as the 200 just with less options and a longer scale BUT...

The JB200 isn't actually the exact same as the original bluey either I don't think and the scale is longer too, if I'm correct Jason's original was actually a Gibson scale.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> The JB200 isn't actually the exact same as the original bluey either I don't think and the scale is longer too, if I'm correct Jason's original was actually a Gibson scale.



Yes I know. It also had a kahler and not a floyd. However the body shape was the same. The JB100 is a completely different guitar.


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## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yes I know. It also had a kahler and not a floyd. However the body shape was the same. The JB100 is a completely different guitar.


Look at that picture they are not the same shape, Go to Kiesel's page and the 200 and the 100 are the same shape.

100 





200


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> Look at that picture they are not the same shape, Go to Kiesel's page and the 200 and the 100 are the same shape.
> 
> 100
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 200



Jeff even said he made the upper horn longer and there's a deeper forearm cut.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> Jeff even said he made the upper horn longer and there's a deeper forearm cut.


Are you sure he didn't mean for both JB's? Because the 200 looks to have a longer horn now too.

This is a 200 from in stock -






The horn looks longer than my JB imo, perhaps he did it to all JB's.


----------



## cwhitey2

Cynicanal said:


> Uh, yes? Standard solid color + maple board is definitely returnable. Oh, and a build being nonreturnable doesn't void the warranty, so if they screw the build up, they still should offer to fix it according to their terms (admittedly, I have no experience as to whether or not they honor this, but that's just another good reason to avoid non-returnable builds).



I have said it before and I'll say it again. Kiesel cannot acknowledge when they actually screw up, therefore I deem your statement #fakenews or should I say #fakewarranty.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> Are you sure he didn't mean for both JB's? Because the 200 looks to have a longer horn now too.
> 
> This is a 200 from in stock -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The horn looks longer than my JB imo, perhaps he did it to all JB's.



That would be lame, the DC200 didnt have an elongated horn. I understand the need to go to an OFR for these (kahler as a company is not doing that great) but still, the shorter horn makes it look less like a rounded Ibanez. If I wanted that much of an elongated horn, I'd just pick up one of my Ibbies and play them.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> That would be lame, the DC200 didnt have an elongated horn. I understand the need to go to an OFR for these (kahler as a company is not doing that great) but still, the shorter horn makes it look less like a rounded Ibanez. If I wanted that much of an elongated horn, I'd just pick up one of my Ibbies and play them.


It was Jason that actually wanted the Floyd, he says it holds tuning better.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> It was Jason that actually wanted the Floyd, he says it holds tuning better.



Well even if he wanted the Kahler, I dont think he coulda gotten any at the time.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well even if he wanted the Kahler, I dont think he coulda gotten any at the time.


I love Jason as much as any other guy, but I'm just trying to show you that your gripes about the JB's aren't all down to Jeff. 

First off the JB was released and signed off by Jason when they were still Carvin. He liked floyds as evident by most of his other guitars as well as saying it himself. Carvin stopped doing Kahler way back as they required a change in neck angle, before Jeff ran everything. 

The JB 200 and 100 look pretty much identical, look at the site, saying the 100 is not a shape Jason used...Jason never got the chance to use any of these new JB's (200/100/200sc/) which are a different shape from his original DC.


----------



## Vede

Cynicanal said:


> (and a flame maple neck is a seriously terrible idea for a bunch of reasons).



To be fair, the primary reason it's considered a risky neck wood - higher chance for instability/twisting/warping - is likely mitigated by Kiesel installing two carbon fiber rods in the neck, one on either side of the truss rod. That opens up a lot of opportunities for interesting 1-piece neck options, without the typical risks.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> I love Jason as much as any other guy, but I'm just trying to show you that your gripes about the JB's aren't all down to Jeff.
> 
> First off the JB was released and signed off by Jason when they were still Carvin. He liked floyds as evident by most of his other guitars as well as saying it himself. Carvin stopped doing Kahler way back as they required a change in neck angle, before Jeff ran everything.
> 
> The JB 200 and 100 look pretty much identical, look at the site, saying the 100 is not a shape Jason used...Jason never got the chance to use any of these new JB's (200/100/200sc/) which are a different shape from his original DC.



This is kinda off my overall point, as my beef is technically with Jeff the fartsniffer. 

I liked the SC, don't like the 100.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Taking guesses on how many comments are 
A. People saying no problem. Everything is ok!
B. People calling the op child murdering hitler for not calling Kiesel first. 
C. People getting banned from the group for laughing for at Kiesel


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> Taking guesses on how many comments are
> A. People saying no problem. Everything is ok!
> B. People calling the op child murdering hitler for not calling Kiesel first.
> C. People getting banned from the group for laughing for at Kiesel



How about all of the above?

I noticed this SAME thing on my JB200 the other day. Do you happen to know how to fix that?


----------



## diagrammatiks

MatiasTolkki said:


> How about all of the above?
> 
> I noticed this SAME thing on my JB200 the other day. Do you happen to know how to fix that?


Burn it? I’ve never seen fretwork that bad. 

A luthier can probably file those down.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

I have that problem to varying degrees on at least two thirds of my guitars and basses since moving to Korea, and that's with a humidifier running constantly during winter. I wish it was a Kiesel-specific thing, or even a price range-specific thing, but I have the issue on gear ranging from a $500 Epiphone LP to a $2.6k custom one-off bass.

Come to think of it, the only guitars or basses I have now that never have that issue are my fretless basses and my SG with full neck binding that covers the fret ends, haha.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> Burn it? I’ve never seen fretwork that bad.
> 
> A luthier can probably file those down.



I meant the little gap between the fingerboard and the bottom of the fret. Is that fret sprout?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I have that problem to varying degrees on at least two thirds of my guitars and basses since moving to Korea, and that's with a humidifier running constantly during winter. I wish it was a Kiesel-specific thing, or even a price range-specific thing, but I have the issue on gear ranging from a $500 Epiphone LP to a $2.6k custom one-off bass.
> 
> Come to think of it, the only guitars or basses I have now that never have that issue are my fretless basses and my SG with full neck binding that covers the fret ends, haha.



Yeah I need to buy one :/


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Fret-end files will trim the symptom of Kiesel rushing those guitars out. I’d personally try leaving a slightly damp sponge in the case with the guitar for a day or two to see if the wood swallows the sprouts back in.


----------



## pondman

I used to get that with quite a few of my home builds. I started making neck blanks and leaving those indoors to get used to warmer conditions before using. It worked to a degree but I was still getting it on some finished necks after a few months or even weeks. I realised it must be happening after the final neck carving releasing most of the moisture especially with the heat generated while carving and machining. I now finish the whole neck and let it settle before final finishing, no problems so far.

You can easily remove that excess with a fine file after masking the surrounding area or using a fret finger board guard.

Note to guitar production lines - leave necks to settle after final sanding.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

yeah fret ends poking out isn't something that only shows up on cheaper builds. 2 of my customs had fretboard shrinkage this winter and I had to touch up the fret ends with a file.


----------



## laxu

Yeah on my Skervesen when winter cold came around the fret ends sprouted a bit and I had to file them back down to take care of it. I've had to do it for my USA G&L Legacy as well but not to my Kiesel or Carvin. It's simply wood expanding and contracting due to changing humidity and temperature.

That Kiesel seems like a pretty extreme case and is most likely down to the individual piece of wood more than any factory flaw.

On another note I'm still extremely happy with both my Kiesel AM7 and Carvin C66. They may not be built 100% perfect but they sound and play amazingly well, could not hope for better _musical instruments_.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Yeah on my Skervesen when winter cold came around the fret ends sprouted a bit and I had to file them back down to take care of it. I've had to do it for my USA G&L Legacy as well but not to my Kiesel or Carvin. It's simply wood expanding and contracting due to changing humidity and temperature.
> 
> That Kiesel seems like a pretty extreme case and is most likely down to the individual piece of wood more than any factory flaw.
> 
> On another note I'm still extremely happy with both my Kiesel AM7 and Carvin C66. They may not be built 100% perfect but they sound and play amazingly well, could not hope for better _musical instruments_.



I thought nothing could even come close to my Carvin/Kiesels... then my RG550RF came and that was the end of that. That thing outdoes them and for much cheaper.


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> I thought nothing could even come close to my Carvin/Kiesels... then my RG550RF came and that was the end of that. That thing outdoes them and for much cheaper.



I actually replaced an original 1989 RG550 with the Carvin C66. I owned that RG for about 15 years and really liked it after replacing the shit stock pickups with a Seymour Duncan PATB-1 and '59 Model. I bought the Carvin from a user on this board and it has also been modded already with better Floyd parts and Suhr Doug Aldrich pickups. I would not say it's a better guitar than the RG I had, but it is a helluva lot better looking and the toothpick thin neck on the RG wasn't to my tastes so it's a better fit for me.


----------



## -JeKo-

Both my Kiesels suffered from fret sprout (ebony). On the other hand, I've had that happen with Tom Andersons as well and those are +3K guitars.

California is a very different climate from most other places, and that's why the wood easily shrinks when it's shipped to somewhere else.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> I actually replaced an original 1989 RG550 with the Carvin C66. I owned that RG for about 15 years and really liked it after replacing the shit stock pickups with a Seymour Duncan PATB-1 and '59 Model. I bought the Carvin from a user on this board and it has also been modded already with better Floyd parts and Suhr Doug Aldrich pickups. I would not say it's a better guitar than the RG I had, but it is a helluva lot better looking and the toothpick thin neck on the RG wasn't to my tastes so it's a better fit for me.



Oh I totally get that. The things I noticed I preferred about my 550 (and also my RG5000 and RG750) is that the thinner neck works better for me. I dont have long fingers so having it thin helps with my stretches more. Also, because the fingerboard is wider, there's more space between strings and I realized I prefer that extra space. Having such little space between strings is kinda annoying. Also, as an experiment, I went back to my JB200 (mostly) so I can reconnect with the guitar. Itll take me a day or so to get the feel back when I go between different guitars, but this time I noticed that i was still playing more sloppily on the JB200. These were the first things I really noticed. 

Another thing I noticed was because of the shorter scale length on the JB200, the reduced tension made it feel too wobbly. I'm considering putting on 11-49s for Eb just because of that. I'd prefer to just get some high-tension springs but I was told that wasn't enough to add the kinda tension I want. Dont understand that, when OFRs are based on Spring vs String tension to be at zero point, so adding tension through the springs should make the strings feel tighter.


----------



## laxu

MatiasTolkki said:


> Another thing I noticed was because of the shorter scale length on the JB200, the reduced tension made it feel too wobbly. I'm considering putting on 11-49s for Eb just because of that. I'd prefer to just get some high-tension springs but I was told that wasn't enough to add the kinda tension I want. Dont understand that, when OFRs are based on Spring vs String tension to be at zero point, so adding tension through the springs should make the strings feel tighter.



Using more or higher tension springs would just mean you need to use different settings to get the bridge level. In my experience using more springs just makes the trem stiffer but has no noticeable effect on the strings. I definitely prefer 11s for Eb though.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Using more or higher tension springs would just mean you need to use different settings to get the bridge level. In my experience using more springs just makes the trem stiffer but has no noticeable effect on the strings. I definitely prefer 11s for Eb though.



I like 10s just in general, but the tension is a little too flabby on my Carvin/Kiesels, which is why I'm considering the switch to 11s on those. Keeping 10s on my Ibbies though, the tension is perfect.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

-JeKo- said:


> California is a very different climate from most other places, and that's why the wood easily shrinks when it's shipped to somewhere else.



I wonder if Fender Musical Instrument Corporation is hip to this.

Take it from a California guy: You can build a neck that doesn’t sprout the first time the season changes, but the patience involved can be a rare resource in the industry.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Most higher end builders and a bunch of custom builders let thier guitars sit in a relatively dry environment for a given time, usually a week or two and sometimes even a full month, before shipping them out. This significantly limits the amount of fretboard shrink that makes it to the customer. 

That said, it's not something you can completely get rid of, so many of the better builders trim the tang at the ends and leave a fraction of a millimeter of fretboard at the end of the fret. It's more difficult and time consuming and makes end dressing more difficult, but it's an overall better method given the end product. You can even cut the fretboard traditionally and then use binding. 

Buy what are the odds Kiesel will do any of those things?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Most higher end builders and a bunch of custom builders let thier guitars sit in a relatively dry environment for a given time, usually a week or two and sometimes even a full month, before shipping them out. This significantly limits the amount of fretboard shrink that makes it to the customer.
> 
> That said, it's not something you can completely get rid of, so many of the better builders trim the tang at the ends and leave a fraction of a millimeter of fretboard at the end of the fret. It's more difficult and time consuming and makes end dressing more difficult, but it's an overall better method given the end product. You can even cut the fretboard traditionally and then use binding.
> 
> Buy what are the odds Kiesel will do any of those things?



My guess: Never, because they have to ship fancy, overpriced figured woods to people willing to accept their propaganda as soon as possible and not bother checking for minor things that could take like 1 or 2 extra days out of their schedule to go over.


----------



## Shask

-JeKo- said:


> Both my Kiesels suffered from fret sprout (ebony). On the other hand, I've had that happen with Tom Andersons as well and those are +3K guitars.
> 
> California is a very different climate from most other places, and that's why the wood easily shrinks when it's shipped to somewhere else.





Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I wonder if Fender Musical Instrument Corporation is hip to this.
> 
> Take it from a California guy: You can build a neck that doesn’t sprout the first time the season changes, but the patience involved can be a rare resource in the industry.



It is funny you guys mention this, because I have noticed this also. My Kiesel does this, and so does Indonesian guitars I have had. I noticed it seems like guitars built in warmer climates tend to have more of this issue with frets sticking out in the winter. I tend to have really good luck with Korean guitars for some reason. Here in Indiana it can go from -20 degrees F to 95 degrees + throughout the year, and humidity from 20% to 98%+ , so the winter really messes with all my guitars. Maybe Korea is just cold and has no humidity like Indiana in the winter, lol.


----------



## JSanta

I've got five guitars sitting on a rack next to me, but I'll exclude the Parker though. My 2003 Carvin is the only one that has had the frets sprout a bit - every single fret. Nice little bubbles in the clear coat. That being said, I was not as careful with that guitar back then as I am now. I don't know when it happened. It spent years under a bed while I was in the Army. 

I sold my Kiesel DC700 recently though. Both because I'm not playing 7's anymore, and partially because I don't want one of his guitars in my collection.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Shask said:


> Maybe Korea is just cold and has no humidity like Indiana in the winter, lol.



Currently live in Korea, can confirm. 
Hot, humid summers; cold dry winters.

I only have one MiK guitar here in Korea (a Reedoox strat clone), and now that I think about it it hasn't really had much of a problem with pointy fret ends compared to my other guitars. However, I suspect that's more because its neck & fretboard are one piece of maple, not because it was made in Korea, haha.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Currently live in Korea, can confirm.
> Hot, humid summers; cold dry winters.
> 
> I only have one MiK guitar here in Korea (a Reedoox strat clone), and now that I think about it it hasn't really had much of a problem with pointy fret ends compared to my other guitars. However, I suspect that's more because its neck & fretboard are one piece of maple, not because it was made in Korea, haha.



same weather in Japan, but I've got used Ibbies that are 30 years old and only possibly need a fret level, but other than that, no problems. i live in one of the worst city for guitars too.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

MatiasTolkki said:


> same weather in Japan, but I've got used Ibbies that are 30 years old and only possibly need a fret level, but other than that, no problems. i live in one of the worst city for guitars too.



I have an MIJ craft series Bacchus bass, and it has some minor problems with fretboard shrinkage/pointy fret ends, too. Not to the same degree as my indo Ibbies, but I suspect that has to do with it having a bound ebony fretboard rather than unbound rosewood moreso than it being MiJ vs MiI. I think Korean style under-floor radiant heating might contribute to the problem in my case, too.

Nagoya's bad for guitars, huh? I was actually looking into Japanese language schools a couple months ago, and had my eye on one in Nagoya. I was thinking about studying Japanese for a year then just staying afterwards to teach ESL (that's what I do in Korea), but now it's looking like I won't be able to afford that. Especially not in Nagoya, which might be more affordable than somewhere like Tokyo, but it's still juuuuuust a touch on the too pricey side compared to someplace like Nagano. Full disclosure, though, one of the main reasons I was considering Nagoya is because one of my favorite Japanese bands is from there, haha.


Oh, oops, sorry guys. What I meant to say was RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! BOOOOO KIESEL! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!


----------



## Avedas

Shask said:


> It is funny you guys mention this, because I have noticed this also. My Kiesel does this, and so does Indonesian guitars I have had. I noticed it seems like guitars built in warmer climates tend to have more of this issue with frets sticking out in the winter. I tend to have really good luck with Korean guitars for some reason. Here in Indiana it can go from -20 degrees F to 95 degrees + throughout the year, and humidity from 20% to 98%+ , so the winter really messes with all my guitars. Maybe Korea is just cold and has no humidity like Indiana in the winter, lol.


This could be a thing. My Korean Strandberg is doing just fine here in Japan around 5 degrees C and basically zero humidity.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I have an MIJ craft series Bacchus bass, and it has some minor problems with fretboard shrinkage/pointy fret ends, too. Not to the same degree as my indo Ibbies, but I suspect that has to do with it having a bound ebony fretboard rather than unbound rosewood moreso than it being MiJ vs MiI. I think Korean style under-floor radiant heating might contribute to the problem in my case, too.
> 
> Nagoya's bad for guitars, huh? I was actually looking into Japanese language schools a couple months ago, and had my eye on one in Nagoya. I was thinking about studying Japanese for a year then just staying afterwards to teach ESL (that's what I do in Korea), but now it's looking like I won't be able to afford that. Especially not in Nagoya, which might be more affordable than somewhere like Tokyo, but it's still juuuuuust a touch on the too pricey side compared to someplace like Nagano. Full disclosure, though, one of the main reasons I was considering Nagoya is because one of my favorite Japanese bands is from there, haha.
> 
> 
> Oh, oops, sorry guys. What I meant to say was RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! BOOOOO KIESEL! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!



Nagoya has a dry summer, and very humid winter, and the temperature variations are killer. 

Dont compare Nagoya to Nagano. Nagano is the middle of nowhere, Nagoya is a big city. Nagoya is a great place to live, I've been here 11 years. You can find some affordable places if you dont live next to a station. I know a few places that require a bus ride to get to a nearby station, but the rent prices are HALF what I pay. If you're used to Korea already nagoya wont be too bad, just the summer heat is pretty oppressive. 

BTW, Fujigen's factories are in Nagano for a reason: Humidity stays pretty consistent so that's why Fujigen put their factory there.

Oh and Jeff kiesel is a loser.


----------



## stevexc

MatiasTolkki said:


> Oh and Jeff kiesel is a loser.



Thank god, I almost didn't recognize you there for a minute


----------



## MatiasTolkki

stevexc said:


> Thank god, I almost didn't recognize you there for a minute



LOL


----------



## nyxzz

Matias is the world's premier Kiesel hater, few can challenge him for the throne


----------



## MatiasTolkki

nyxzz said:


> Matias is the world's premier Kiesel hater, few can challenge him for the throne



I'll clarify:

I dont hate the brand, I hate Jeff.


----------



## Andromalia

In Japan, you can detune a guitar just by walking trough a convenience store exit in august. These guys are NUTS with the aircon.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andromalia said:


> In Japan, you can detune a guitar just by walking trough a convenience store exit in august. These guys are NUTS with the aircon.



Nope, wrong. Since the earthquake, all places set their air conditioners to 28 degrees to save energy.


----------



## Kodee_Kaos

Just wanted to update. Got my Vader about 4 months ago. Only issue was that they forgot the Straplocks, instead installing normal buttons. Emailed them and they offered to take it back and fix it. I said "f that just send me the hardware". They sent me 2 sets of buttons, but the Vader has 3 buttons total. I emailed them again, got another set in the mail. Problem resolved. It's been great other than the fact that the whammy bar is a little loose in the socket, and that the finish is a bit underwhelming. If I knew how it was going to look I probably would have opted for an opaque paintjob on an ash body, instead of the fancy antique ash treatment. 

But overall it's a top notch instrument. I'll probably get a second one down the road.


----------



## V_man

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Just wanted to update. Got my Vader about 4 months ago. Only issue was that they forgot the Straplocks, instead installing normal buttons. Emailed them and they offered to take it back and fix it. I said "f that just send me the hardware". They sent me 2 sets of buttons, but the Vader has 3 buttons total. I emailed them again, got another set in the mail. Problem resolved. It's been great other than the fact that the whammy bar is a little loose in the socket, and that the finish is a bit underwhelming. If I knew how it was going to look I probably would have opted for an opaque paintjob on an ash body, instead of the fancy antique ash treatment.
> 
> But overall it's a top notch instrument. I'll probably get a second one down the road.



So you have to finish the guitar yourself. You did their job and they didn´t pay you?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

V_man said:


> So you have to finish the guitar yourself. You did their job and they didn´t pay you?



I'd charge by the minute, like a phone sex line.


----------



## Lemons

V_man said:


> So you have to finish the guitar yourself. You did their job and they didn´t pay you?



He didn't have to do anything, it just would've been a huge waste of time for everyone involved if he sent the guitar back for the strap buttons to be changed.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'd charge by the minute, like a phone sex line.


The instant image that popped in my head is you in a curly haired wig and various sexual accoutrement, and answering the phone like, "hi, studly. This is matias tolkki, your sexy phone sex operator this evening? What may I call you?"
"Uhh... erm, I called about my, uhh... guitar?" 
"OH... uh, yeah. So... you ordered the watermelonburst headless guitar with 8 strings and green coated DRs? What was the issue with the guitar?"
"Well, I ordered the sploogeburst..."



#WhenYouHaveTwoCareers


----------



## V_man

Lemons said:


> He didn't have to do anything, it just would've been a huge waste of time for everyone involved if he sent the guitar back for the strap buttons to be changed.



He had to install the Straplocks.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The instant image that popped in my head is you in a curly haired wig and various sexual accoutrement, and answering the phone like, "hi, studly. This is matias tolkki, your sexy phone sex operator this evening? What may I call you?"
> "Uhh... erm, I called about my, uhh... guitar?"
> "OH... uh, yeah. So... you ordered the watermelonburst headless guitar with 8 strings and green coated DRs? What was the issue with the guitar?"
> "Well, I ordered the sploogeburst..."
> 
> 
> 
> #WhenYouHaveTwoCareers


----------



## Soya

V_man said:


> He had to install the Straplocks.


He chose to install them.


----------



## V_man

Soya said:


> He chose to install them.


He paid for a guitar with straplocks and they delivered something else


----------



## Soya

Exactly. And Kiesel offered to accept a return to fix it then send it back. I'm not saying that's the better option then just screwing some on yourself, but can we dial back the witch hunt just a little bit?


----------



## V_man

Soya said:


> Exactly. And Kiesel offered to accept a return to fix it then send it back. I'm not saying that's the better option then just screwing some on yourself, but can we dial back the witch hunt just a little bit?



No. Because this is not a witch hunt. This is an internet forum where people can give their opinions.


----------



## feraledge




----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The instant image that popped in my head is you in a curly haired wig and various sexual accoutrement, and answering the phone like, "hi, studly. This is matias tolkki, your sexy phone sex operator this evening? What may I call you?"
> "Uhh... erm, I called about my, uhh... guitar?"
> "OH... uh, yeah. So... you ordered the watermelonburst headless guitar with 8 strings and green coated DRs? What was the issue with the guitar?"
> "Well, I ordered the sploogeburst..."
> 
> 
> 
> #WhenYouHaveTwoCareers






Soya said:


> Exactly. And Kiesel offered to accept a return to fix it then send it back. I'm not saying that's the better option then just screwing some on yourself, but can we dial back the witch hunt just a little bit?



To be fair though, shipping the guitar back to them for THEIR mistake costs money. If I lived in the US still and got my V220 as it was? I woulda sent it back to get the paint issues fixed. Know why I didn't? It costs a shitload of money to ship a guitar from Japan to the US.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

But I dont agree that if a guitar is wrong in some way that WE should foot the bill. I think that's horseshit.


----------



## Soya

It wasn't clear if Kiesel would be footing the shipping charge or not. Believe me Matias, I agree with you.


----------



## Soya

V_man said:


> No. Because this is not a witch hunt. This is an internet forum where people can give their opinions.


Lol k


----------



## Seabeast2000

./delete_negative_Kiesel_posts.sh


----------



## V_man

Soya said:


> Lol k



You can laught all you want but kiesel will never be a true custom shop brand. Even if theirs fanboys cry


----------



## Soya

Oh I don't care at all about Kiesel, I was amused at your SUPERSRSBUSINESS attitude towards missing Straplocks.


----------



## V_man

Soya said:


> Oh I don't care at all about Kiesel, I was amused at your SUPERSRSBUSINESS attitude towards missing Straplocks.



A supposedly custom shop or boutique brand should not only deliver the guitar expected, but offer a premium service as well, that is respect the customer and don´t have a garbage attitude.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MatiasTolkki said:


> But I dont agree that if a guitar is wrong in some way that WE should foot the bill. I think that's horseshit.


If it's not to spec as per the work order, then Kiesel should eat the damages if it won't sell on the site, and remake the guitar. That is, of course, assuming it isn't a negligible error that can be fixed by replacing a piece of hardware easily enough or whatever.


----------



## Lemons

@V_man good work dude, you're coming across just as idiotic as the Kiesel fanboys we all love to complain about. I don't care for, and won't defend their business practices, but it would be more work for the owner to ship the guitar back (even if Kiesel were footing the bill) than it takes to install a whole 3 screws.


----------



## V_man

Lemons said:


> @V_man good work dude, you're coming across just as idiotic as the Kiesel fanboys we all love to complain about. I don't care for, and won't defend their business practices, but it would be more work for the owner to ship the guitar back (even if Kiesel were footing the bill) than it takes to install a whole 3 screws.



And who pays for the time he would spend on that?


----------



## V_man

And by the way remember that he would not only spend time in putting the screws. He would also had to wait until they arrive to his nearer post office. So he has to go to the post office, wait to them to handle the screws to him and then come back to his house. That could take a few hours. And if he doesn´t have the tools for that he would also had to go to a store and buy it.


----------



## Lemons

V_man said:


> And who pays for the time he would spend on that?



No one pays for the total 3 minutes it would take, if you're that deep in your hole of Kiesel hatred then I don't you've got anything constructive to add to this conversation. Also delivery straight to your door is a wonderful thing.


----------



## V_man

Lemons said:


> No one pays for the total 3 minutes it would take, if you're that deep in your hole of Kiesel hatred then I don't you've got anything constructive to add to this conversation. Also delivery straight to your door is a wonderful thing.



And by the way remember that he would not only spend time in putting the screws. He would also had to wait until they arrive to his nearer post office. So he has to go to the post office, wait to them to handle the screws to him and then come back to his house. That could take a few hours. And if he doesn´t have the tools for that he would also had to go to a store and buy it.


----------



## V_man

@Lemons maybe you like to finish the work of others but there is people that not.


----------



## V_man

Also I don´t like people that pass their responsibility to others


----------



## Wolfhorsky

@V_man You made Your points, now chill. Let’s try to be objective. Straplockgate is not that bad. They could offer Him a discount on another one. And i’m not a fanboy. Far from it. I want a Vader but i won’t order anything from them. Vote with Your money.
And try not to argue about such tiny problems. Life will be better for You and others ;-)


----------



## Lemons

V_man said:


> That could take a few hours.



Remind me to never hire you on an hourly rate to replace 3 screws in anything. Actually it all makes sense now if it takes you that long to do anything, cant wait for your next NGD complaining about a guitar arriving a semitone flat and how it took you another 2 hours to tune it.


----------



## V_man

Lemons said:


> Remind me to never hire you on an hourly rate to replace 3 screws in anything. Actually it all makes sense now if it takes you that long to do anything, cant wait for your next NGD complaining about a guitar arriving a semitone flat and how it took you another 2 hours to tune it.



Why would I work for you? do you need a C# or java programmer?

but don´t worry @Lemons I doubt you have the kind of money to pay for what I do at my job


----------



## Lemons

Yep that's it, you got me good. 

EDIT: added an angry face so everyone can see how upset I am


----------



## V_man

Lemons said:


> Yep that's it, you got me good.



Don´t be salty this is just an internet forum. Is perfectly valid if you like to work around on yours guitars. In fact I like to calibrate mine by my own because I don´t like to handle them to that people that call themselves "luthiers" (when in reality they are guitar techs). And I have the feeling that jeff is that kind of human. And yes I take my time because I don´t like to repeat myself.
BUT when I buy something it better be what I spected or else.







Specially if the vendor is an arrogant dude like jeff.

Cordial greetings


----------



## laxu

Making some real mountains out of mole hills. Putting on the wrong strap pins is a small mistake. While it is something that QA should've caught going thru the specs list, no company is perfect. I agree that shipping the guitar back would have been far too much work. I would've opted to just get the correct strap pins and install them myself. While they are in the mail the owner can enjoy their guitar.

Some people really need to chill with their hate for some company.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Wolfhorsky said:


> @V_man You made Your points, now chill. Let’s try to be objective. Straplockgate is not that bad. They could offer Him a discount on another one. And i’m not a fanboy. Far from it. I want a Vader but i won’t order anything from them. Vote with Your money.
> And try not to argue about such tiny problems. Life will be better for You and others ;-)



Well straplockgate is tiny in comparison to a lot of things, but still. Why is it Kiesel's FIRST instinct to make someone spend a crapton of money to ship a guitar back to them over straplocks? They could just offer to send replacement straplocks for free, since they messed up, and it would be TONS cheaper than having the dude send the guitar all the way back to the factory over a tiny thing like that. Looking deeply at the issue like that is important too bro.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

laxu said:


> Making some real mountains out of mole hills. Putting on the wrong strap pins is a small mistake. While it is something that QA should've caught going thru the specs list, no company is perfect. I agree that shipping the guitar back would have been far too much work. I would've opted to just get the correct strap pins and install them myself. While they are in the mail the owner can enjoy their guitar.
> 
> Some people really need to chill with their hate for some company.



For once I'm not hating on the company, as I like Kiesel as a company and I like my Carvin and Kiesel, even with their flaws. I just thought I'd point out some rational points on the issue and I'm not on a roid rage rant about it this time either, so you know I'm being rational


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If it's not to spec as per the work order, then Kiesel should eat the damages if it won't sell on the site, and remake the guitar. That is, of course, assuming it isn't a negligible error that can be fixed by replacing a piece of hardware easily enough or whatever.



I think we both agree on this issue. Kiesel should just say, "Okay we'll send out a set of strap locks right away, and sorry for the inconvenience" but nah, they'd rather you help Fed ex make some money.

Personally, I think that's why arrogant punk is making everything non-returnable, so that he can say "customer has no legal recourse against us, even though we screwed up." That's really concerning imo.


----------



## V_man

Lemons said:


> Don't stress, it was a bit of a joke/maybe a little jab at how "passionate" people get about Kiesel on this forum. Personally I think the level of moderation on Sevenstring is great.



Yes please don´t lock this tread I promise I won´t fight with @Lemons again. And I too think the administration of this forum is good. Cordial greetings


----------



## Shoeless_jose

V_man said:


> Yes please don´t lock this tread I promise I won´t fight with @Lemons again. And I too think the administration of this forum is good. Cordial greetings



If they wanted to lock the thread they would need to take several hours to install their own thread locks, so it shouldn't be a problem


----------



## bostjan

Dineley said:


> If they wanted to lock the thread they would need to take several hours to install their own thread locks, so it shouldn't be a problem


 That's why I love this place!


----------



## mphsc

Loving that recessed tom...


----------



## Shoeless_jose

mphsc said:


> Loving that recessed tom...
> 
> View attachment 59285
> View attachment 59286
> View attachment 59287



I wouldn't want to take the risk of ordering a Kiesel, but that is a very nice guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Dineley said:


> I wouldn't want to take the risk of ordering a Kiesel, but that is a very nice guitar.



Just find a used carvin, They are cheap and better than a Kiesel.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

MatiasTolkki said:


> Just find a used carvin, They are cheap and better than a Kiesel.



Yeah I have too many other bucket list guitars, however that one in the pictures above looked very nice. PRS, something with a Floyd and a white explorer with Ebony board with pick guard and classic control layout all need to be in the stable before I even look at anything else... unless it's a cool 8 string.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Dineley said:


> Yeah I have too many other bucket list guitars, however that one in the pictures above looked very nice. PRS, something with a Floyd and a white explorer with Ebony board with pick guard and classic control layout all need to be in the stable before I even look at anything else... unless it's a cool 8 string.



I got the perfect guitar in my RG550RF now, so I wont need a guitar for awhile


----------



## Kodee_Kaos

Oh wow. Straplockgate. Now I'm doubting if my SS frets are in fact just plain old nickel..

But yeah:
1: Kiesel was totally ready to give me a shipping label
2. The strap buttons got delivered to my home mailbox
3, I'm not going to send away my new guitar for "repairs" when I had already waited months
4; That's bad for the environment and a waste of time
5- It took maybe 10 minutes to correct with a simple phillips head screwdriver. 
6' how do you metallurgy test to see if stainlet steal isnt actually nickel


----------



## nyxzz

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Oh wow. Straplockgate. Now I'm doubting if my SS frets are in fact just plain old nickel..
> 
> But yeah:
> 1: Kiesel was totally ready to give me a shipping label
> 2. The strap buttons got delivered to my home mailbox
> 3, I'm not going to send away my new guitar for "repairs" when I had already waited months
> 4; That's bad for the environment and a waste of time
> 5- It took maybe 10 minutes to correct with a simple phillips head screwdriver.
> 6' how do you metallurgy test to see if stainlet steal isnt actually nickel



find someone allergic to nickel, make them touch frets ?


----------



## Spicypickles

mphsc said:


> Loving that recessed tom...



Do you have any issues with knocking the strings off the saddles?

I have a guit with a recessed TOM, and I have to be careful when picking hard. It’s rare, but every now and then one jumps out.


----------



## spudmunkey

Spicypickles said:


> Do you have any issues with knocking the strings off the saddles?
> 
> I have a guit with a recessed TOM, and I have to be careful when picking hard. It’s rare, but every now and then one jumps out.



I've had a carved top single-cut model (CS6), and I've only had it happen to me once in the roughly 10 years I've had it, and it was more because i was being stupidly cartoonish with my picking hand, and pretty much PULLED the strung out of the saddle by getting the pick hooked under the string and pulling up...but I have the string-through body version, not the stop-tail.


----------



## spudmunkey

Kodee_Kaos said:


> Oh wow. Straplockgate. Now I'm doubting if my SS frets are in fact just plain old nickel..
> 6' how do you metallurgy test to see if stainlet steal isnt actually nickel





nyxzz said:


> find someone allergic to nickel, make them touch frets ?



You could rub your finger back and forth over the fret, fast and hard enough to build up some friction heat. After doing this for a bit, you smell your finger. Nickel alloys contain copper, and you should pick up a slight "penny" smell. Yes, I'm serious. No, I'm not kidding.

Besides that, it's pretty hard to tell unless you've seen a ton of each closely, and without scratching a fret.


----------



## Albake21

Kodee_Kaos said:


> 6' how do you metallurgy test to see if stainlet steal isnt actually nickel


I'd like to know too. When I bought my Kiesel (in-stock one) Jeff showed it off in a live stream and called them SS, then corrected himself when he saw nickel on the specs. Then I bought it, I too thought "this has to be SS". As of today (1 year later) they are still shiny like SS, so I'm pretty sure I got SS for free.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

Guy named spudmomkey tells you to smell your finger. I have seen it all in the Kiesel thread.


----------



## Jonathan20022

It's extremely apparent if you have Stainless or Not after playing Nickel Frets and SS back to back. Dig in with your left hand a slight bit and use a bit of vibrato and see if you feel any resistance. Nickel always manifests some sort of resistance even when polished, and Stainless never does unless it's unpolished.


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


> Specially if the vendor is an arrogant dude like jeff.


Of all the potential fake accounts from Kiesel on here, I'm beginning to think @V_man is the most likely candidate for actually being Jeff. "Yeah, that 70 page thread on nerdzone about straplocks??" 



Dineley said:


> If they wanted to lock the thread they would need to take several hours to install their own thread locks, so it shouldn't be a problem


Win.


----------



## laxu

Spicypickles said:


> Do you have any issues with knocking the strings off the saddles?
> 
> I have a guit with a recessed TOM, and I have to be careful when picking hard. It’s rare, but every now and then one jumps out.



That should not happen unless there is too little downward pressure on the strings or the string slots are too shallow. You could probably deepen the slots a bit and raise the bridge slightly to fix this.

IMO putting a tune-o-matic on a guitar with no neck angle just makes no sense. They had tons of other bridge designs to choose from and picked one that has shitty intonation range and an extra tailpiece.


----------



## mphsc

Spicypickles said:


> Do you have any issues with knocking the strings off the saddles?
> 
> I have a guit with a recessed TOM, and I have to be careful when picking hard. It’s rare, but every now and then one jumps out.



None at all. This is my 5th Kiesel. Two Vaders, one custom and one from a run, both 8's, an Aries 8 from the run, a KM6 FF and now the SH7. It's a little heavier than I expected, most likely the Limba body but damn this guitar is nice. Perfect fret ends, string height, electronics are working properly and that cocobolo neck is so nice. Loving the orange hues and the whole guitar is a real looker. They typically throw in a few shirts and goodies as well. Always used Chris Hong, although I did deal with Mike once, was super friendly. At the end of the day it's a business, a successful one at that. I've seen plenty of garbage pass through this forum claiming to be excellent guitars from builders that are no longer making instruments, or they are trying to make a comeback. Plus the model options and wood choices and so forth sort of set them apart form anyone else making guitars. Sure they have a few issues, think of the volume they are turning out and people tend to get butt hurt on here pretty easily, which I find a bit humorous.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

mphsc said:


> None at all. This is my 5th Kiesel. Two Vaders, one custom and one from a run, both 8's, an Aries 8 from the run, a KM6 FF and now the SH7. It's a little heavier than I expected, most likely the Limba body but damn this guitar is nice. Perfect fret ends, string height, electronics are working properly and that cocobolo neck is so nice. Loving the orange hues and the whole guitar is a real looker. They typically throw in a few shirts and goodies as well. Always used Chris Hong, although I did deal with Mike once, was super friendly. At the end of the day it's a business, a successful one at that. I've seen plenty of garbage pass through this forum claiming to be excellent guitars from builders that are no longer making instruments, or they are trying to make a comeback. Plus the model options and wood choices and so forth sort of set them apart form anyone else making guitars. Sure they have a few issues, think of the volume they are turning out and people tend to get butt hurt on here pretty easily, which I find a bit humorous.



Wood choices does not mean good guitars. That's just propaganda. If you got stuck with a guitar that had pickups in it that sounded like horny cat without a lady to procure at night, and want to call them versatile and can do anything, that's horseshit. The lithiums are horrible pickups, the demos for the pickups are absolute garbage, as they stick to only 3 tones: Clean, blues/jazz (slight dirt), or djent binary faux prog garbage. The way I had to learn the lithiums were absolute trash? Playing my friend's DC727, then his Aries 6. When you have to get an EXACT wood combination or else the pickups sound so harsh you can't get a decent tone out of them, woods that cost a LOT extra btw, you know you done fucked up.


----------



## feraledge

It's concerning to see this thread devolve from legitimate complaints and heckles into a manifesto. I think Jeff is an uber-douche. I don't wish death on him.


----------



## technomancer

Cleaned up some of the stupider crap on the last page.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Hollowway said:


> But is that really going to get engaged in a 50 watt amp at reasonable volume? It seems like you’d have to really crank the amp to get the power tubes distorting. Assuming that’s what you guys are talking about. In other words, I would think that at bedroom and band practice volumes the 50 watt and 100 watt would have almost exclusively preamp distortion, right?





nyxzz said:


> find someone allergic to nickel, make them touch frets ?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

mphsc said:


> think of the volume they are turning out



I saw Jeff post on IG "We have over 760 custom builds in the works".


----------



## mike1033

Depending on what kind of stainless they're using for frets you may be able to tell using a magnet.


----------



## Cynicanal

MatiasTolkki said:


> woods that cost a LOT extra btw, you know you done fucked up.


Mahogany neck and body is a $100 upgrade. Mahogany body is a $50 upgrade.

I personally really don't like the Lithiums at all, but let's try to keep things factually accurate, shall we?

(Also, seriously, telling a guy who is excited about his new guitar "nah bro, your guitar sucks" is a dick move.)


----------



## bostjan

mike1033 said:


> Depending on what kind of stainless they're using for frets you may be able to tell using a magnet.


("nickel" frets are actually about ~20% nickel, but actually mostly copper and a little zinc).

Typically nickel frets will look duller than stainless frets, in terms of lustre, they'll be much harder, much more resistant to corrosion, and slightly less conductive.

Or, you could take one of the frets to the bank...if it's nickel, they'll give you five pennies, but if it's steal, they'll call the police.


----------



## V_man

Cynicanal said:


> Mahogany neck and body is a $100 upgrade. Mahogany body is a $50 upgrade.
> 
> I personally really don't like the Lithiums at all, but let's try to keep things factually accurate, shall we?
> 
> (Also, seriously, telling a guy who is excited about his new guitar "nah bro, your guitar sucks" is a dick move.)



Its a really complicated matter because is not a "new gear day" tread so in my honest opinion it does not count. But if it was, I agree with you a NGD is sacred. A NGD is a celebration of something you have been blessed with. The post you alluded to sounds more like a childish try to get a reaction. And besides look at this phrase: "I've seen plenty of garbage pass through this forum claiming to be excellent guitars"
one can ask "¿which builders? give names so we can compare and have a good conversation". If not, is just like throw a stone to the water.
Cordial greetings


----------



## Jonathan20022

MatiasTolkki said:


> Wood choices does not mean good guitars. That's just propaganda. If you got stuck with a guitar that had pickups in it that sounded like horny cat without a lady to procure at night, and want to call them versatile and can do anything, that's horseshit. The lithiums are horrible pickups, the demos for the pickups are absolute garbage, as they stick to only 3 tones: Clean, blues/jazz (slight dirt), or djent binary faux prog garbage. The way I had to learn the lithiums were absolute trash? Playing my friend's DC727, then his Aries 6. When you have to get an EXACT wood combination or else the pickups sound so harsh you can't get a decent tone out of them, woods that cost a LOT extra btw, you know you done fucked up.



There is virtually nothing actually wrong with the Lithium pickups, if people don't personally like them I get that. But I also see guitarists on a regular basis barely understand how to even reach objectively good, usable tones that I have to really doubt they tried. 

They are bright and high output, all of my Kiesels had them and when they arrived in good playable condition the instruments sounded fine.

I tried them in a guitar that was all Maple/Ash, then another that was comprised of Walnut/Ebony/Maple/Ash, Walnut/Ebony/Koa/Black Limba, Black Limba/Ebony/Redwood/White Limba. You don't have to get a specific set of woods to make them work, you just don't like the pickups and there's nothing wrong with that, just get whatever pickups you DO like and sell the Lithiums.

I have plenty of examples recorded with these guitars and had no personal issues with the tone out of the lithiums. I actually quite miss my Koa K7C, but refuse to support that company anymore.


----------



## FitRocker33

My Vader 7 has a maple neck and fretboard with swamp ash wings and the lithium’s, and I find them to sound REALLY good with my rig. Punchy and tight sounding. I like them better than the Nazgul/sentient set in my horizon III


----------



## spudmunkey

Jonathan20022 said:


> just get whatever pickups you DO like and sell the Lithiums.



In b4 "But pickups in japan cost..."


----------



## spudmunkey

mike1033 said:


> Depending on what kind of stainless they're using for frets you may be able to tell using a magnet.



For what it's worth, Neither of my Carvin/Kiesel guitars with stainless are magnetic. one's from 2008 and one's from 2016. I also have a Carvin with nickel, so I'm positive these two are SS.


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> In b4 "But pickups in japan cost..."


That is probably a reason I'll never buy a guitar with shitty stock pups though. A set of BKPs is $500


----------



## technomancer

Add another vote for Lithiums not being that bad. I had them in a maple neck / ebony board / alder wings Vader 6. They weren't my favorite pickups or anything, and they definitely did better when tuned down, but they also weren't something I felt the immediate need to swap out.

What is sort of funny is if memory serves most people on here HATED the old Carvin pickups, and the only ones I didn't feel an immediate need to get rid of on the several Carvins I had were the Holdsworths in the walnut H2 I had briefly.


----------



## JSanta

I really don't like the old school pickups I have in my Carvin. I actually thought the Lithiums were pretty good in the DC700 I had. Actually, I think they were a big step above what they use to offer as standard.


----------



## laxu

I agree that Lithiums are fine. I had a bit of a love/hate thing for them initially but now have grown to like them precisely because they are bright. I often don't find the tone pot on my guitars that useful but on my Kiesel I actually use it a fair bit as the Lithiums are very bright and cut through like a knife due to having a low mid scoop. I have thoroughly enjoyed playing funky stuff on them and they fare quite well on high gain too.

But Kiesel definitely needs to offer more pickup options. Seems right now the only options for the AM7 I have are Lithiums and Holdsworths.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Add another vote for Lithiums not being that bad. I had them in a maple neck / ebony board / alder wings Vader 6. They weren't my favorite pickups or anything, and they definitely did better when tuned down, but they also weren't something I felt the immediate need to swap out.
> 
> What is sort of funny is if memory serves most people on here HATED the old Carvin pickups, and the only ones I didn't feel an immediate need to get rid of on the several Carvins I had were the Holdsworths in the walnut H2 I had briefly.


----------



## Snarpaasi

I used to have in my DC127 the stock C22s whatever they were called and thought they sounded great. But my god when I swapped in some Dimarzios, the improvement was huge! Aaaand that's how the pickup swapping cycle began... The 12 pole pickup design is really ugly btw so at least they got rid of that with lithiums.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> In b4 "But pickups in japan cost..."



So because you live in the US and pickups are affordable, you're just gonna mock the TRUTH that pups cost more here? Yeah, show your true colors.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> So because you live in the US and pickups are affordable, you're just gonna mock the TRUTH that pups cost more here? Yeah, show your true colors.



Seriously dude, calm down. 

You're going to make me have to close this thread.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Avedas said:


> That is probably a reason I'll never buy a guitar with shitty stock pups though. A set of BKPs is $500



dude, there's a BKP warpig or something used at a local store here that costs like 30,000 yen  At least I think it was used, I haven't bothered looking at it for awhile, and I KNOW it's still sitting there.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jesus, calm down. No mocking intent was...er... intended. I was just playing, in that I was expecting your reply.


----------



## spudmunkey

laxu said:


> But Kiesel definitely needs to offer more pickup options. Seems right now the only options for the AM7 I have are Lithiums and Holdsworths.



Also the Beryllium now, and the Greg Howe, so I also imagine the Frank Gembale could be had as well (but not 100% on that). They also have the Lithium and Beryllium single coils. In 2027 the Thorium will be "coming soon", too, so we can look foreword to that.


----------



## Edika

I still have the C22 set that came with my Carvin. I think they sound great and cover a lot of ground sonically. I can play anything and have great cleans up to metal. They might not do the tightest djentiest sounds but I can play Thrash and Death metal and have great clarity and articulation. I don't know if they are that high output but they do sound hotter than JB's and closer to the D-Activators I have. Maybe it's the frequencies that the pickup is pumping out. I have this guitar for 11 years now and I won't lie I haven't been curious trying something else but the narrower cavities would mean I'd have to route it which I have no intention off. Compared to my other guitars it has it's place tonally and as I don't plan downtuning, I'll never find out how well it sounds like that.

The C26 pickups however, while nice, were a bit wooly. When I replaced those with a Dimarzio D-Sonic and Air Norton set I did see a great difference in sound and clarity.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Also the Beryllium now, and the Greg Howe, so I also imagine the Frank Gembale could be had as well (but not 100% on that). They also have the Lithium and Beryllium single coils. In 2027 the Thorium will be "coming soon", too, so we can look foreword to that.



The demo of the berylliums was terrible. Kiesel doesnt know how to cover ALL sonic areas in a demo. They'll do djent shit with lithiums, and cleans with Berylliums, but never something like Screaming for Vengeance era Judas Priest. The berylliums are nowhere near what I like in pickups. If I want something lower output like that, I'd just get a Dimarzio AT1, which is cheaper than anything kiesel puts out, even here.


----------



## V_man

going to post this before someone close the tread. I don´t know if its sounds bad. But if I had to return a 3000+ usd guitar to fix some issues I would be really piss off.


----------



## btbg

V_man said:


> going to post this before someone close the tread. I don´t know if its sounds bad. But if I had to return a 3000+ usd guitar to fix some issues I would be really piss off.




Well I mean you thought it was absurd to have to install your own straplocks after a simple mistake was made so... yeah I understand your point 

Seriously though, a $3000+ guitar can have flaws, but those are just a bit.. much.


----------



## Avedas

V_man said:


> going to post this before someone close the tread. I don´t know if its sounds bad. But if I had to return a 3000+ usd guitar to fix some issues I would be really piss off.



Jesus that Facebook chat screenshot


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I love arnold. I dont like his sound demos because it's all djent garbage (a skip over all of his demos now), but listening to his reviews, he's got an amazing eye for lots of things. I have always agreed with his opinion on color treated boards.


----------



## pondman

Great wine review .


----------



## Frostbite

MatiasTolkki said:


> I love arnold. I dont like his sound demos because it's all djent garbage (a skip over all of his demos now), but listening to his reviews, he's got an amazing eye for lots of things. I have always agreed with his opinion on color treated boards.


I don't think you know what djent actually is if you think Arnold's demos are anything close to djent. His demos are usually very Gojira style death metal


----------



## BuckarooBanzai

I'd love a basic ~$1000 hardtail with SS frets and HH pickup configuration but I can't give my money to Kiesel in good conscience. I have a bass from them that developed fret sprout, and since they clear coat the sides of their fretboards (even the ebony ones as in this case) there are now tiny bubbles in the clear around each fret tang... their lack of attention to quality and the general aroma of douchebaggery wafting from their direction mean that I'll never buy one of their instruments again.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Frostbite said:


> I don't think you know what djent actually is if you think Arnold's demos are anything close to djent. His demos are usually very Gojira style death metal



A lot of his demos sound like djent, some are death metal, some are black metal, ALL genres I couldnt give two shits about. He has done some really traditional sounding demos and those i7ll listen to.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Mo Jiggity said:


> I'd love a basic ~$1000 hardtail with SS frets and HH pickup configuration but I can't give my money to Kiesel in good conscience. I have a bass from them that developed fret sprout, and since they clear coat the sides of their fretboards (even the ebony ones as in this case) there are now tiny bubbles in the clear around each fret tang... their lack of attention to quality and the general aroma of douchebaggery wafting from their direction mean that I'll never buy one of their instruments again.



Those dont exist anymore, especially with the V/X models. Lowest price you can get one for is like 1400 or something now.


----------



## BuckarooBanzai

MatiasTolkki said:


> Those dont exist anymore, especially with the V/X models. Lowest price you can get one for is like 1400 or something now.



I won't bother to go through the builder but you can absolutely get a DC series for around $1100 as long as you don't go crazy with options. Check their site.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Mo Jiggity said:


> I won't bother to go through the builder but you can absolutely get a DC series for around $1100 as long as you don't go crazy with options. Check their site.



The person I quoted said ~$1000 aka UNDER 1000. That doesn't exist anymore. Also, I SPECIFICALLY stated that you can NOT get an V/X for that price anymore, which is true. Hell even my barebones V220, because of the floyd rose, cost over 1400.


----------



## CerealKiller

MatiasTolkki said:


> The person I quoted said ~$1000 aka UNDER 1000.


Famously ~ means approximately, and not under. That would be <$1000.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

CerealKiller said:


> Famously ~ means approximately, and not under. That would be <$1000.



My point still stands about V/X models.


----------



## CerealKiller

MatiasTolkki said:


> My point still stands about V/X models.


Well yeah, their base price is $1299. But it is possible to get a (very!! barebones) SS + HH hardtail Kiesel for about $1000. Not encouraging anyone to order tho, just saying.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

CerealKiller said:


> Well yeah, their base price is $1299. But it is possible to get a (very!! barebones) SS + HH hardtail Kiesel for about $1000. Not encouraging anyone to order tho, just saying.



When I got mine, they were only 1049 base, so it was before the price hike, so mine was actually quite affordable.


----------



## btbg

Someone needs a fucking snickers.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Avedas said:


> Jesus that Facebook chat screenshot



What else have we come to expect from Kiesel?

A couple months ago I kinda got the itch, specced out a guitar, watched reviews etc, then just decided "nah" because of the sheer amount of bad things that I heard about that company. The horrible attitudes, the aggressive attacks on critics - it's just not worth dealing with.


----------



## MetalHead40

Flappydoodle said:


> What else have we come to expect from Kiesel?
> 
> A couple months ago I kinda got the itch, specced out a guitar, watched reviews etc, then just decided "nah" because of the sheer amount of bad things that I heard about that company. The horrible attitudes, the aggressive attacks on critics - it's just not worth dealing with.



Wise decision.


----------



## Restarted

Flappydoodle said:


> What else have we come to expect from Kiesel?
> 
> A couple months ago I kinda got the itch, specced out a guitar, watched reviews etc, then just decided "nah" because of the sheer amount of bad things that I heard about that company. The horrible attitudes, the aggressive attacks on critics - it's just not worth dealing with.


Embarrassed to say I almost ordered one. They just didn't want my money I guess. Specced it out, emailed them with a few questions regarding build time, set-up, warranty..etc. Email received was with really short answers. Not so friendly or customer-servicy but fine, every online store I emailed responded the same way so I accepted that. Was told build time was 10-12 weeks (website said 9-10 weeks, mind you). My mother in law was coming from the US in a little over 12 weeks so I told the "Internet Sales" guy I'll pay RIGHT NOW if they can get it shipped in time. He told me to get the rush option and pay 10% extra. $210 for them to stick to their timeline (not their announced timeline, either. The one you find out when you want to order). I told him I was already pushing my budget with that $2100 build (Which was true. Budget was $1800) and cannot push it further, and would also rather not compromise with the specs I wanted. His reply was "Ok. I understand".
During the whole email exchange, I did not receive a single greeting. Not once did he start his replies with "Hi", "Hello", or anything that would lessen the feeling that I was an unwanted customer. Short answers, no details, every single time. Even when I said I'm ready to pay.
I guess I got lucky.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Restarted said:


> Embarrassed to say I almost ordered one. They just didn't want my money I guess. Specced it out, emailed them with a few questions regarding build time, set-up, warranty..etc. Email received was with really short answers. Not so friendly or customer-servicy but fine, every online store I emailed responded the same way so I accepted that. Was told build time was 10-12 weeks (website said 9-10 weeks, mind you). My mother in law was coming from the US in a little over 12 weeks so I told the "Internet Sales" guy I'll pay RIGHT NOW if they can get it shipped in time. He told me to get the rush option and pay 10% extra. $210 for them to stick to their timeline (not their announced timeline, either. The one you find out when you want to order). I told him I was already pushing my budget with that $2100 build (Which was true. Budget was $1800) and cannot push it further, and would also rather not compromise with the specs I wanted. His reply was "Ok. I understand".
> During the whole email exchange, I did not receive a single greeting. Not once did he start his replies with "Hi", "Hello", or anything that would lessen the feeling that I was an unwanted customer. Short answers, no details, every single time. Even when I said I'm ready to pay.
> I guess I got lucky.



Yup, I'd count that as lucky.

Seems to me that their business model is to pay YouTubers and "influencers" to pimp their products on social media, get endorsements from literally anybody, silence any and all criticism, and use all-out aggressive short-term money-grabbing tactics. The problem is, that isn't a good business model for the long term - especially with popular "influencer" guys like Chapman, Ola, Abasi etc getting into the game. Relying on short-term popularity and being "the latest thing" is a very very risky strategy, because we know how fast things can change.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

At no point have I ever felt they were a short term money grabbing company. 

Endorsees play their products because their products are good. They also get hella deals through them.

Can’t with an honest face say that you wouldn’t accept 4-5 free guitars to play on stage KNOWING that you will get the best quality for being an endorsee. 

Bad stuff happens and will continue to happen in any company. Just the way it goes.

I’ve seen so much passion put into hating them. Maybe take that passion and make some music. Let it go fellas


----------



## Matt08642

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I’ve seen so much passion put into hating them. Maybe take that passion and make some music. Let it go fellas



Maybe OP would be making music if he hadn't been jerked around for months by Kiesel "support"


----------



## CapinCripes

just bought a Carvin... it was made before Jeff was even in middle school though so it probably wont end up all kiesel'ed


----------



## Matt08642

CapinCripes said:


> just bought a Carvin... it was made before Jeff was even in middle school though so it probably wont end up all kiesel'ed



You can probably pay to send it in to them to add a bevel and dye the fretboard neon blue if you'd like it to be nice and Kiesel'd!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> At no point have I ever felt they were a short term money grabbing company.
> 
> Endorsees play their products because their products are good. They also get hella deals through them.
> 
> Can’t with an honest face say that you wouldn’t accept 4-5 free guitars to play on stage KNOWING that you will get the best quality for being an endorsee.
> 
> Bad stuff happens and will continue to happen in any company. Just the way it goes.
> 
> I’ve seen so much passion put into hating them. Maybe take that passion and make some music. Let it go fellas



my friend is a kiesel endorser and he told me what's up. I'll just say this: endorsers don't get free guitars. you know who gives out free guitars like candy? ESP. kiesel is one of the stingiest companies out there. Also, a company like ESP or Ibanez can send out techs to check over your guitars; kiesel can't. 

I think you need to take off your fanboy glasses before you crash into a tree.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> my friend is a kiesel endorser and he told me what's up. I'll just say this: endorsers don't get free guitars.



For what it's worth, it's been reported elsewhere that there are a few free, and then a discount on future purchases....but I have no way of validating it. but what I'm positive of is that I'm sure most endorsements are figured out on a case-by-case basis, and just because one person gets something, doesn't mean that someone else doesn't get more or less.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> my friend is a kiesel endorser and he told me what's up. I'll just say this: endorsers don't get free guitars. you know who gives out free guitars like candy? ESP. kiesel is one of the stingiest companies out there. Also, a company like ESP or Ibanez can send out techs to check over your guitars; kiesel can't.
> 
> I think you need to take off your fanboy glasses before you crash into a tree.




I’m not a fanboy. No need to be harsh. Who hurt you?

Maybe you need to read over your own comments. You sound like someone holding a grudge over an ex.

Have a good day/evening/morning sir.


----------



## Lemons

Weighing in on the endorsement deals here with some inside info, about a year ago these guys were getting 2 free builds a year plus a discount on any further orders.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Lemons said:


> Weighing in on the endorsement deals here with some inside info, about a year ago these guys were getting 2 free builds a year plus a discount on any further orders.



My friend became an endorser over a year ago, he hasn't received a single free guitar; he had to pay for his 2 since becoming an endorser.


----------



## feraledge

There's also many tiers to an endorsement level. There are going to be a lot of folks who just get artist pricing and then others who will get anything they ask for. That's true across the board for all companies. But when we're talking about dudes like Andy or Marc, they're going to be pretty relative and a lot were seemingly poached or nails in the coffin during NAMM when Jeff was out to close some deals. So when the discussion about them getting 3 or 4 guitars is up, it's mostly related to that. 
Also, ESP doesn't hand out guitars like candy to their artists. A lot more about scale, once again.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

feraledge said:


> There's also many tiers to an endorsement level. There are going to be a lot of folks who just get artist pricing and then others who will get anything they ask for. That's true across the board for all companies. But when we're talking about dudes like Andy or Marc, they're going to be pretty relative and a lot were seemingly poached or nails in the coffin during NAMM when Jeff was out to close some deals. So when the discussion about them getting 3 or 4 guitars is up, it's mostly related to that.
> Also, ESP doesn't hand out guitars like candy to their artists. A lot more about scale, once again.



I met Fred, the former drummer of Amon Amarth a couple years ago, and he said ESP flat out gave his bass player like 3 custom shop level guitars, for FREE and they didnt ask for them back.


----------



## Possessed

feraledge said:


> There's also many tiers to an endorsement level. There are going to be a lot of folks who just get artist pricing and then others who will get anything they ask for. That's true across the board for all companies. But when we're talking about dudes like Andy or Marc, they're going to be pretty relative and a lot were seemingly poached or nails in the coffin during NAMM when Jeff was out to close some deals. So when the discussion about them getting 3 or 4 guitars is up, it's mostly related to that.
> Also, ESP doesn't hand out guitars like candy to their artists. A lot more about scale, once again.



ESP indeed gives out many free guitar, otherwise how can they steal so many artists from Jackson in late 90s early 2000.


----------



## feraledge

MatiasTolkki said:


> I met Fred, the former drummer of Amon Amarth a couple years ago, and he said ESP flat out gave his bass player like 3 custom shop level guitars, for FREE and they didnt ask for them back.


Well yeah, he's in Amon Amarth. Like I said, there's tiers to all of it. Most of the guys I knew got three guitars per year coming from mid-tier metal bands, heavy touring, good name recognition, but weren't selling insane levels of CDs. 
Granted, I'd take three EIIs or LTDs per year quickly, but I'm not down to tour 300 days per year to do so.


----------



## Lemons

MatiasTolkki said:


> endorsers don't get free guitars.





MatiasTolkki said:


> My friend became an endorser over a year ago, he hasn't received a single free guitar; he had to pay for his 2 since becoming an endorser.



Maybe not everyone does, but these guys aren't in a particularly large band and aren't known as really notable players which leads me to believe that Kiesel aren't too stressed about letting a few free guitars out. Just cause your friend doesn't meet the necessary artist criteria it doesn't mean that no one is getting free guitars.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Endorsers certainly get free guitars, you really think popular artists are endorsing a company to pay for their guitars? Thats the point of it and nowadays companies are dying to just throw out free instruments everywhere. I know guys endorsed by Ibanez who get free Schecters. 

With the massive drop in revenue from selling music artists have to look to gear companies to make a living. You could even think of them as employed by a guitar company. They get a bunch of free guitars, promotion through their social media pages and a cut from selling sig models.


----------



## technomancer

It really does feel like a couple of the guys in here are literally just here to argue about ANYTHING, even things everybody knows like there being different levels of endorsement... it's a bit sad as what was a useful thread for people to talk about when they have had actual problems with Kiesel now just looks like a bitch fest by a guy or two with an agenda


----------



## Seabeast2000

Makes me want to pixelate all of the logos on my stuff (clothes, cars, golf bag, HvAC unit, etc), until I get a deal.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> It really does feel like a couple of the guys in here are literally just here to argue about ANYTHING, even things everybody knows like there being different levels of endorsement... it's a bit sad as what was a useful thread for people to talk about when they have had actual problems with Kiesel now just looks like a bitch fest by a guy or two with an agenda



Well it doesnt help that Jeff has said in NUMEROUS livestreams in the past that endorsers pay for their guitars and dont get freebies. They get the "endorser" price. As these were awhile ago I am NOT going to dig through all those livestreams to find quotes, especially when I cant stand the sight of Jeff's face, but if you guys wanna search through it, be my guest.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^Fractal boasted the exact same thing that they don't give out free Axe-Fxs but a mid tier endorser said to me he's never paid a cent for any of his. Take everything you hear from companies with a grain of salt. Its simple marketing. Like I said Schecter have and I'm sure still give out free guitars to endorsed Ibanez artists.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Just stop dude. :/


----------



## Fred the Shred

MatiasTolkki said:


> my friend is a kiesel endorser and he told me what's up. I'll just say this: endorsers don't get free guitars. you know who gives out free guitars like candy? ESP. kiesel is one of the stingiest companies out there. Also, a company like ESP or Ibanez can send out techs to check over your guitars; kiesel can't.
> 
> I think you need to take off your fanboy glasses before you crash into a tree.



Knowing a bunch of Kiesel endorsers, I can say that what you say is untrue regarding Kiesel. Endorsement tiers are what they are, simply put.

Obviously, companies don't proactively go out there screaming "we hand out free guitars" - it's an AR nightmare, and their acquisition strategy requires no hordes of fluff trying to score freebies.


----------



## Flappydoodle

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> At no point have I ever felt they were a short term money grabbing company.
> 
> Endorsees play their products because their products are good. They also get hella deals through them.
> 
> Can’t with an honest face say that you wouldn’t accept 4-5 free guitars to play on stage KNOWING that you will get the best quality for being an endorsee.
> 
> Bad stuff happens and will continue to happen in any company. Just the way it goes.
> 
> I’ve seen so much passion put into hating them. Maybe take that passion and make some music. Let it go fellas



4-5 free guitars is "worth" what, $10-15k? (and in fact, it costs Kiesel maybe only half of that)

And in return, I can't play anything else, talk about anything else? Meh. Doesn't seem like a great deal.

Also, out of personal preference, I'd much rather be associated with ESP than Kiesel on image alone. ESP has some of the biggest names in all of rock and metal music. Kiesel has a bunch of YouTubers (thus explaining in all fairness why Andy James may fit in better with Kiesel)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Flappydoodle said:


> 4-5 free guitars is "worth" what, $10-15k? (and in fact, it costs Kiesel maybe only half of that)
> 
> And in return, I can't play anything else, talk about anything else? Meh. Doesn't seem like a great deal.
> 
> Also, out of personal preference, I'd much rather be associated with ESP than Kiesel on image alone. ESP has some of the biggest names in all of rock and metal music. Kiesel has a bunch of YouTubers (thus explaining in all fairness why Andy James may fit in better with Kiesel)



I wouldnt mind ESP if they weren't basically cornering the ENTIRE market here in Japan. Any band with any sort of heaviness to them instantly goes to ESP. Plus, ESP runs Musician's Institute Japan, is the licensed dealer for BOTH EMG and Seymour Duncan. Why do you think I felt so uneasy having an E-II in my stable of axes? I don't like being like everyone else, and that's not to be "edgy" or anything (edgy wasn't a thing when I was a kid). I've always been sorta an outsider to begin with, being like the only kid at school who listened to any sort of traditional rock/metal in a sea of kids who listened to rap (late 80s/early 90s). In Japan, being a fan of Ibanez or Carvin/Kiesel is like a mirage; you just don't see it much. I know a lot of musicians who use Ibanez, but that's because we share a common interest in those guitars 

My E-II was a nice guitar, but not for damn near the cost (only 3000 yen less) of my JB200, when my JB200 plays circles around it and didn't come with shit pickups (Electric Magnetic Garbage) stock.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Flappydoodle said:


> 4-5 free guitars is "worth" what, $10-15k? (and in fact, it costs Kiesel maybe only half of that)
> 
> And in return, I can't play anything else, talk about anything else? Meh. Doesn't seem like a great deal.
> 
> Also, out of personal preference, I'd much rather be associated with ESP than Kiesel on image alone. ESP has some of the biggest names in all of rock and metal music. Kiesel has a bunch of YouTubers (thus explaining in all fairness why Andy James may fit in better with Kiesel)



Honestly it’s smarter to grab those youtubers. It’s advertising. Basically paying for an online ad. Every view StevieT gets shows off his kiesels.

They are adapting in a way I’ve seen no other company try to adapt. Most of the bigger names still go off of how big you are.

Also note there is a difference between an Artist and an Endorsee. You may be an ESP artist if you’re in some unsigned band. Good luck getting an endorsement unless you’re touring 300 Days out of a year with a record label under your belt.


----------



## bostjan

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Good luck getting an endorsement unless you’re touring 300 Days out of a year with a record label under your belt.



This keeps getting parroted over and over on this forum, but it is absolutely untrue. Why does this keep getting said?!


----------



## narad

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Honestly it’s smarter to grab those youtubers. It’s advertising. Basically paying for an online ad. Every view StevieT gets shows off his kiesels.



Well it's better than their previous attempt to banner ad spam this site.

But uh... it's all advertising. All endorsement is advertising.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Flappydoodle said:


> 4-5 free guitars is "worth" what, $10-15k? (and in fact, it costs Kiesel maybe only half of that)
> 
> And in return, I can't play anything else, talk about anything else? Meh. Doesn't seem like a great deal.
> 
> Also, out of personal preference, I'd much rather be associated with ESP than Kiesel on image alone. ESP has some of the biggest names in all of rock and metal music. Kiesel has a bunch of YouTubers (thus explaining in all fairness why Andy James may fit in better with Kiesel)



Honestly it’s a smart idea to grab those YouTube guys. They have more of fanbase than most bands nowadays. All they have to do is make a funny or goofy video and get subscribers.

The world of music is changing still. It’s a safer bet to put your product in the hands of someone who can actually deliver in advertising than to give it to a band who could break up. 

Bands break up, tours get cancelled, some people get sexual assault allegations, some have singers/guitar players who kick out everyone. Etc


----------



## BigViolin

It’s appreciated when people with actual knowledge chime in here. Thanks Fred.


----------



## narad

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Honestly it’s a smart idea to grab those YouTube guys. They have more of fanbase than most bands nowadays. All they have to do is make a funny or goofy video and get subscribers.



Dude...there's a difference in quality. Someone can goof off and do burnouts in a mclaren and post it on youtube to tons of views. It's still the guys that win races that garners prestige for the brand and sells the cars.

Youtubers have reach, but the power of that reach is often not so great. If anything Youtubers just fill the niche of having well-produced demo videos that a lot of brands lacked.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Well it's better than their previous attempt to banner ad spam this site.
> 
> But uh... it's all advertising. All endorsement is advertising.



They tried that? Damn


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

BigViolin said:


> It’s appreciated when people with actual knowledge chime in here. Thanks Fred.



Yeah we could use some real input. I realize I know nothing about endorsement only what I read from you guys on here.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Dude...there's a difference in quality. Someone can goof off and do burnouts in a mclaren and post it on youtube to tons of views. It's still the guys that win races that garners prestige for the brand and sells the cars.
> 
> Youtubers have reach, but the power of that reach is often not so great. If anything Youtubers just fill the niche of having well-produced demo videos that a lot of brands lacked.



Yeah especially people like Rob Chapman. Are his guitars selling? Sure but he still has VERY little reach overall. Only a handful of dealers in the US, and still NONE in Japan.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

narad said:


> Dude...there's a difference in quality. Someone can goof off and do burnouts in a mclaren and post it on youtube to tons of views. It's still the guys that win races that garners prestige for the brand and sells the cars.
> 
> Youtubers have reach, but the power of that reach is often not so great. If anything Youtubers just fill the niche of having well-produced demo videos that a lot of brands lacked.


Yeah I look at their vids as highly produced demo videos. 

And @MatiasTolkki I’m not sure if rob Chapman sigs sell, never seen anyone with one.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Yeah I look at their vids as highly produced demo videos.
> 
> And @MatiasTolkki I’m not sure if rob Chapman sigs sell, never seen anyone with one.



Yeah see, I just kinda assumed they did because he expanded operations to make UK-made guitars now that maybe they sold enough for him to get that far. I probably wont ever see one here in Japan, since he seems to be pushing his guitars for his core audience on Youtube, and Anderton is also part owner in the company so of course he's going to push them as well, but their reach is what, like maybe 500,000 people or something like that?


----------



## Flappydoodle

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Honestly it’s smarter to grab those youtubers. It’s advertising. Basically paying for an online ad. Every view StevieT gets shows off his kiesels.
> 
> They are adapting in a way I’ve seen no other company try to adapt. Most of the bigger names still go off of how big you are.
> 
> Also note there is a difference between an Artist and an Endorsee. You may be an ESP artist if you’re in some unsigned band. Good luck getting an endorsement unless you’re touring 300 Days out of a year with a record label under your belt.



Totally understood, but for reference Andy James *was* with ESP. He was a "signature artist", though I guess nobody knows what that means in terms of how much he was paid (if anything), what gear he got, what cross-promotion was agreed etc. He left ESP and moved to Kiesel, right after ESP just launched a brand new Andy James signature guitar for 2018 - hence my comments.

Edit: my other point was that although those Youtubers might offer you immediate online ads, trends change quickly, and they literally sell their audience to the highest bidder (i.e. the latest hotness). Not to mention, some of them are starting competing companies using their own brands and audiences to get started (Chapman, Solar, Abasi etc) All in all, it doesn't create a particularly stable long-term base for your company if you rely on those guys.


----------



## Fred the Shred

To be honest, I fully support Andy's decision to move, and he both liked the guitars and Kiesel takes good care of their artists. I may not like some of Jeff's decisions and approaches to marketing, but this doesn't make me a "Kiesel hater" or anything like that, especially since they make good stuff - if anything, I want a ton of companies to succeed, as it both creates competition and variety AND it is a sign of the industry thriving, which is not the case in recent years, and we all have to lose from that.

The point about YouTubers is interesting. My online presence, even in snippets, has more sales tied to it than all the hired gun gigs combined, and I do MANY of those for large audiences. Why? Because guitarists will be interested in my approach to guitar and are a self-filtered target audience, whereas the bunch of attendees at a given concert can be pretty much everything, from die hard fans to casual listeners to musicians, and the latter are, save for rare instances, a tiny minority. 

From what I've heard from a number of companies, a well established musician's musician is like a self-targetting Facebook / magazine ad, with a one-shot cost and less chances of wasted paid for views. There's room for everything with a degree of reach as far as advertisement goes, so the whole "play 500 shows a year in headlining tours with an audience comprising at least 78.5% guitarists" criteria is a gross exaggeration - if you have something that sells and helps the company sell in numbers that justify their investment, then you're a good bet.


----------



## feraledge

bostjan said:


> This keeps getting parroted over and over on this forum, but it is absolutely untrue. Why does this keep getting said?!


Standard fare for any endorsement deal is a platform, the old standby is 100+ shows or high profile/televised events. Now that includes youtube, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking there’s a hundred Olas in the making out there. 
But if you want to be realistic about trying to make a living as a touring musician, you’re talking 300 shows a year. Because holding down a job that lets you take off 45-100 days at a time is a small niche. You basically have to live it. Everyone I know who is at that 3-4 guitars per year level, if they aren’t playing 250-300 shows they got their endorsements when they were and did that for years.


----------



## bostjan

feraledge said:


> Standard fare for any endorsement deal is a platform, *the old standby is 100+ shows or high profile/televised events.* Now that includes youtube, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking there’s a hundred Olas in the making out there.
> But if you want to be realistic about trying to make a living as a touring musician, you’re talking 300 shows a year. Because holding down a job that lets you take off 45-100 days at a time is a small niche. You basically have to live it. Everyone I know who is at that 3-4 guitars per year level, if they aren’t playing 250-300 shows they got their endorsements when they were and did that for years.


I really don't think that it is. I know tons and tons of endorsees, and I don't know a single musician who plays 300 shows a year. I know people who have endorsement deals who play as few as 12-15 shows per year. I personally, got an endorsement when I was playing only a handful of shows (maybe 16/year). Additionally, a local band in my area, Stroll, was a five piece band with four musicians publicly carrying endorsements, and they played a couple dozen local shows, for example. 
Who do you that was told to play over a hundred shows in a year before being considered for an endorsement, and who told them that?
It just seems to me to be bad information to try to discourage people, when, with a little common sense and professionalism, it's not outside of any serious musician's reach to obtain.


----------



## feraledge

bostjan said:


> I really don't think that it is. I know tons and tons of endorsees, and I don't know a single musician who plays 300 shows a year. I know people who have endorsement deals who play as few as 12-15 shows per year. I personally, got an endorsement when I was playing only a handful of shows (maybe 16/year). Additionally, a local band in my area, Stroll, was a five piece band with four musicians publicly carrying endorsements, and they played a couple dozen local shows, for example.
> Who do you that was told to play over a hundred shows in a year before being considered for an endorsement, and who told them that?
> It just seems to me to be bad information to try to discourage people, when, with a little common sense and professionalism, it's not outside of any serious musician's reach to obtain.








Misery Signals are friends of mine, just for starters. And yes, they toured over 300 days per year for their earlier days and into their later ones. *Also, endorsements are in tiers. This isn't a hard concept.* For example, I have had an endorsement deal with Curt Mangan strings since like 2009, I got a free shirt and stickers, pay wholesale pricing on strings plus shipping.
It's very easy to get an endorsement for "artist pricing" or something like that, we're talking about the endorsements where they're giving out free guitars and shit like that.


----------



## feraledge

narad said:


> But uh... it's all advertising. All endorsement is advertising.


This. So much this. 
Advertising, branding, advertising, branding. The more something looks like it's a natural and organic deal, the less likely it is to be so. I think people genuinely think just playing awesome music in a band gets you somewhere. Maybe like a handful of times did someone just recognize natural talent in a person and elevate it, but building up these gear channels on youtube, being a recognized artist, being a touring band?? It takes a FUCK TON of work and it is constant. I don't think people get how even the best known metal musician is struggling if they think they're going to make a living off of it. And all the youtube players? They're spending probably all of their time on promotion, negotiating deals, and things like that. 
It's not like someone just picks up a guitar and hits record and free stuff just starts flowing their way.


----------



## bostjan

feraledge said:


> This isn't a hard concept.


I agree. It's not a difficult concept. 

...And you keep changing what you are saying. 100 shows a year, 300 shows a year, and touring for 300 days out of the year are three different things. 300+ shows a year to obtain "any endorsement deal" is totally different than 100+ shows/appearances a year to get a top tier endorsement.

Seriously, if I came on here and said that, last year, I played 60 shows and had a top tier endorsement deal when, actually, I was on tour for three weeks and got some free stickers from Ernie Ball, I would expect people to call bullshit. 

So, you say 300 shows a year in order to get "any endorsement deal," but you mean 100+ shows a year to get an ESP endorsement.


----------



## Rawkmann

My cousin is endorsed with Spector basses and plays nowhere near that many shows a year. He's recorded a few sessions with some fairly 'underground' groups but nothing massive although he is a Hell of a bassist. He doesn't exactly get free basses but he can get really well specced Euro models for what their low end import models go for which is pretty insane to me. I agree people need to get the preconceived notions of "Hundreds of shows a year or millions of Youtube views" out of their minds when thinking about endorsements.


----------



## Soya

Tiers.


----------



## feraledge

@bostjan holy shit dude, fucking tiers of a clown. 

Fuck it, all caps is happening: 
I AM GIVING SPECIFIC EXAMPLES FOR WHO I KNOW HAS ENDORSEMENT DEALS BECAUSE THEY ARE IN AN ACTIVE AND RESPECTED TOURING BAND. THAT IS WHAT IT TOOK TO GET 3-4 FREE GUITARS PER YEAR FROM ESP IN PARTICULAR. 

Y’all can speculate all you want. The metric is changing slightly, Ormsby demands an active social media following of 20k or more PLUS TOURING AND/OR EXTENSIVE FOLLOWING. Fucking. Tiers. 
You can meet the above criteria and just get artist pricing. That is easy. I’m giving god damn specific, real world scenarios. I’m not changing any story, TIERS.


----------



## feraledge

My mind is so blown by TIERGATE. I never said 100+ shows gets “top tier endorsement,” that’s the MINIMUM criteria for submitting for endorsement for ESP. 
Also ZERO top tier endorsements happen this way, a dude like Jeff finds an artist that matches his brand and approaches them. That’s top tier. 
I sometimes see forum hive mind devolve into an alternate universe where a same day screen shot becomes conspiracy.


----------



## ArtDecade

I am going to endorse Feraledge because he is now over the 5k post mark. Your stickers are in the mail.


----------



## Soya

Tiers for peers?


----------



## TedEH

^ Tears over tiers?


----------



## Seabeast2000

TedEH said:


> ^ Tears over tiers?



Tyrs


----------



## bostjan

feraledge said:


> My mind is so blown by TIERGATE. I never said 100+ shows gets “top tier endorsement,” that’s the MINIMUM criteria for submitting for endorsement for ESP.
> Also ZERO top tier endorsements happen this way, a dude like Jeff finds an artist that matches his brand and approaches them. That’s top tier.
> I sometimes see forum hive mind devolve into an alternate universe where a same day screen shot becomes conspiracy.


It's like you are not paying any attention to what I'm saying, or even what you are saying.


----------



## Restarted

ArtDecade said:


> I am going to endorse Feraledge because he is now over the 5k post mark. Your stickers are in the mail.



I have a small post count but a strong like-post ratio. Can I also hav stickers pliz?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

REOW Kitty has claws. 

Man we should make a thread where we just argue over stuff. It's entertaining.


----------



## ArtDecade

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Man we should make a thread where we just argue over stuff.



"I think that is a terrible idea. Where did you come up with that?"

See what I did there?


----------



## narad

bostjan said:


> It's like you are not paying any attention to what I'm saying, or even what you are saying.



I don't know - honestly man if you go back the past couple pages @feraledge was pretty clear in his claims, and you seemed to associate different numbers with different arguments. He said it was traditionally typical to play over 100 shows a year to get an endorsement, and there it is right in ESP's guidelines. He said that making it as a *touring* musician would require touring 300 days a year, and these people _happen_ to have 3-4 guitar endorsement deals. He knows a group that does this. Different things.

To your example, with guys playing 16 shows a year, is that their sole source of income? Would you consider them to be "touring musicians"? When you compare some endorsement deal from 16 shows compared to the endorsement deals from 300 shows, are we even talking about remotely the same things? One nets a guy a bunch of free guitars, maybe the other a free pedal? Why are they compared?

Just seems like he mentioned different numbers but they were all clearly in reference to different things, and supported with particular examples.

I mean, this is what I remember from a few threads in off-topic, despite generally putting forth a consistent argument 90% of the time, sometimes you just latch on to some interpretation of some post, and like refuse any effort to clarify, and then claim that someone's not making any sense. I don't know, maybe if I go back 10 pages everything changes, but like, the past couple pages have all been pretty sensible/consistent/supported ::


----------



## noise in my mind

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> REOW Kitty has claws.
> 
> Man we should make a thread where we just argue over stuff. It's entertaining.



Isn't that basically every internet forum? lol


----------



## bostjan

narad said:


> I don't know - honestly man if you go back the past couple pages @feraledge was pretty clear in his claims, and you seemed to associate different numbers with different arguments. He said it was traditionally typical to play over 100 shows a year to get an endorsement, and there it is right in ESP's guidelines. He said that making it as a *touring* musician would require touring 300 days a year, and these people _happen_ to have 3-4 guitar endorsement deals. He knows a group that does this. Different things.
> 
> To your example, with guys playing 16 shows a year, is that their sole source of income? Would you consider them to be "touring musicians"? When you compare some endorsement deal from 16 shows compared to the endorsement deals from 300 shows, are we even talking about remotely the same things? One nets a guy a bunch of free guitars, maybe the other a free pedal? Why are they compared?
> 
> Just seems like he mentioned different numbers but they were all clearly in reference to different things, and supported with particular examples.
> 
> I mean, this is what I remember from a few threads in off-topic, despite generally putting forth a consistent argument 90% of the time, sometimes you just latch on to some interpretation of some post, and like refuse any effort to clarify, and then claim that someone's not making any sense. I don't know, maybe if I go back 10 pages everything changes, but like, the past couple pages have all been pretty sensible/consistent/supported ::


How is this unclear?



r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Good luck getting an endorsement unless you’re touring 300 Days out of a year with a record label under your belt.





bostjan said:


> This keeps getting parroted over and over on this forum, but it is absolutely untrue. Why does this keep getting said?!





feraledge said:


> Standard fare for any endorsement deal is a platform, the old standby is 100+ shows or high profile/televised events. Now that includes youtube, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking there’s a hundred Olas in the making out there.
> But if you want to be realistic about trying to make a living as a touring musician, you’re talking 300 shows a year. Because holding down a job that lets you take off 45-100 days at a time is a small niche. You basically have to live it. Everyone I know who is at that 3-4 guitars per year level, if they aren’t playing 250-300 shows they got their endorsements when they were and did that for years.



Right there. The standard fare for *any endorsement* is not the same as ESP asking for a list of 100+ shows and/or appearances for their endorsement.

Also, 300 shows a year is playing 6 shows a week for the entire year. Nobody does that. In 2015, for example, the record for most tour dates on bandisintown was 218. 300 is that and half again.


----------



## ArtDecade

Pssst. No one cares.


----------



## cip 123

Endorsements are cool


----------



## feraledge

How is this still going @bostjan
Jesus dude, you asked where this is coming from and I told you, from experience, with evidence, what more do you want??
If you want to know about trying to make it as a touring musician, Misery Signals actually made a documentary about genuinely giving it a go and about other bands doing the same and losing friends/members to car accidents. Things have changed because touring continues to get harder, but for the bands that now get 3-4 guitars a year FREE that’s the kind of dedication it took to establish themselves. Living on the road. A lot of friends of mine are old band dudes and spent 10 years of their lives touring in vans.
And yes, they could have gotten artist pricing with 100 shows, so what does that prove??
Your as thick as it gets dude, it’s pretty clear.

So just to ask you a simple question, do your friends who play 16 shows get free guitars? I highly doubt it.

@narad yes, this isn’t some long standing beef, just the past couple pages and it’s fucking bonkers.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

I almost just bought a Kiesel yesterday.

I took too long deciding and he sold it to someone else. It looked really damn sweet and the seller claimed no issues like many have reported.

I am curious to try a Kiesel if it was used and super cheap like this one was but I would never buy new from them from what I have seen online.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Please go ahead and LIKE this post. I think I am this close to getting a top tier Clown colored K Custom endorsement. A couple of quoted responses could mean extra bevel.


----------



## NickS

crankyrayhanky said:


> Please go ahead and LIKE this post. I think I am this close to getting a top tier Clown colored K Custom endorsement. A couple of quoted responses could mean extra bevel.



I see your bevel, and raise you two more bevels. That's right, I bevel your beveled bevel......


----------



## ArtDecade

Both of you are getting ArtDecade stickers in the mail.


----------



## Avedas

If I get enough likes can my Kiesel have a fretboard with _*TWO*_ colors stained into it?


----------



## narad

bostjan said:


> Right there. The standard fare for *any endorsement* is not the same as ESP asking for a list of 100+ shows and/or appearances for their endorsement.
> 
> Also, 300 shows a year is playing 6 shows a week for the entire year. Nobody does that. In 2015, for example, the record for most tour dates on bandisintown was 218. 300 is that and half again.



I don't think anyone's claiming these were hard and fast rules. I don't think anyone takes offense to saying like, the standard fare acceptance to Harvard is a > 1450 SAT and a bunch of extracurriculars, just to find out that some guys are getting in with 1200 SATs and other sets of distinguishing traits. Nor would we surprised if this generally held true at Stanford. 

So in lieu of access to how each brand makes its endorsement decisions, I think bringing in ESP's guidelines as the general requirements for a very established brand with a broad reach of endorsements is as informative as any. It's definitely more informative than talking about the unnamed local bands with 16 shows and unknown endorsement benefits as a counterexample. I think we're just trying to determine what lifestyle is more associated with a multi-guitar endorsement deal, and really I don't see any evidence that it's some casual no-big-deal totally achievable thing.

And that's all I really have to say about that.


----------



## NickS

Avedas said:


> If I get enough likes can my Kiesel have a fretboard with _*TWO*_ colors stained into it?



You have to contact the Kiesel Bukkake Department for that, which I'm pretty sure is headed by Jeff Kiesel himself.


----------



## bostjan

feraledge said:


> How is this still going @bostjan
> Jesus dude, you asked where this is coming from and I told you, from experience, with evidence, what more do you want??
> If you want to know about trying to make it as a touring musician, Misery Signals actually made a documentary about genuinely giving it a go and about other bands doing the same and losing friends/members to car accidents. Things have changed because touring continues to get harder, but for the bands that now get 3-4 guitars a year FREE that’s the kind of dedication it took to establish themselves. Living on the road. A lot of friends of mine are old band dudes and spent 10 years of their lives touring in vans.
> And yes, they could have gotten artist pricing with 100 shows, so what does that prove??
> Your as thick as it gets dude, it’s pretty clear.
> 
> So just to ask you a simple question, do your friends who play 16 shows get free guitars? I highly doubt it.
> 
> @narad yes, this isn’t some long standing beef, just the past couple pages and it’s fucking bonkers.



(*You're)

We went from *any* endorsement requires 300+ shows a year (which is what I originally said was false and you implied I was wrong, which is how this started between you and me) to there are tiers of endorsement (which not a single person ever argued) to this just getting absolutely ridiculous.



narad said:


> I don't think anyone's claiming these were hard and fast rules. I don't think anyone takes offense to saying like, the standard fare acceptance to Harvard is a > 1450 SAT and a bunch of extracurriculars, just to find out that some guys are getting in with 1200 SATs and other sets of distinguishing traits. Nor would we surprised if this generally held true at Stanford.
> 
> So in lieu of access to how each brand makes its endorsement decisions, I think bringing in ESP's guidelines as the general requirements for a very established brand with a broad reach of endorsements is as informative as any. It's definitely more informative than talking about the unnamed local bands with 16 shows and unknown endorsement benefits as a counterexample. I think we're just trying to determine what lifestyle is more associated with a multi-guitar endorsement deal, and really I don't see any evidence that it's some casual no-big-deal totally achievable thing.
> 
> And that's all I really have to say about that.



Except that 100 is clearly not 300, and that there are more to endorsements than just free instruments. Going with your analogy, it's like someone looking at the minimum recommended SAT score of Harvard being >1450, and then telling someone "forget about it unless you have an SAT score of 4300," which is just ridiculous.

Why are you two ignoring the fact that I called out the claim of having to play 300 shows a year to get an endorsement deal, and trying to make this about tiers? This is the stupidest argument I've had in years.

Let's just go back to talking about Kiesel.

Does Kiesel have a minimum requirement for endorsements? 

Of course:



https://www.kieselguitars.com/artists/endorser.php said:


> Endorsement deals are intended for professional musicians who can help broaden Kiesel Guitars' market exposure. Although we understand there are many excellent musicians in the early stages of their career, we cannot offer endorsment deals unless you meet the minimum criteria. To be considered for an endorsement, you should be a signed artist, either with a Major or Indie label with national distribution, as well as high-profile regional or national tour booked. We look at each band/artists' online presence to confirm news, tours and size of your fan base


----------



## ArtDecade




----------



## narad

bostjan said:


> (*You're)



Really?



bostjan said:


> Except that 100 is clearly not 300, and that there are more to endorsements than just free instruments. Going with your analogy, it's like someone looking at the minimum recommended SAT score of Harvard being >1450, and then telling someone "forget about it unless you have an SAT score of 4300," which is just ridiculous.



I'll keep the analogy as I originally proposed it, since I was using actual achievable benchmarks. But I do agree that a 4300 SAT is ridiculous, so I guess we have that going for us.


----------



## Fred the Shred

It's common knowledge that endorsement deals often break the rule for a counterpart the company considers of equal value to the condition the artist doesn't fulfill and most textbook endorsement rules are there to ensure the artist knows they have high standards - it's a two way street, not some charity.

Honestly, I just think this whole thing has deviated from the thread in a way that is getting pretty silly here. Conjectures about how strict Kiesel is or is not regarding the requirements and the way they operate on the artist front on a "kiesel never again!" thread is entering silly territory!


----------



## feraledge

@bostjan this is the last I'm saying about any of this. You have been arguing non-points because you conflated everything in my original statement on the matter into "it's 300 shows or nothing" and acting like a turd since.


feraledge said:


> Standard fare for any endorsement deal is a platform, *the old standby is 100+ shows or high profile/televised events. *


I'm highlighting the SAME part you did. Yet you still missed it. What you didn't seem to notice is this is the statement: "Standard fare for any endorsement deal is a platform"
The rest is clarifiers based on what that traditionally has been and, by and large, still is the case for mainstream companies. Your buddy wound a pickup? Cool. Anyways.
I then verified that claim by posting a screen shot I took yesterday from ESP saying the same goddamn thing.
And then further clarifying:


feraledge said:


> Now that includes youtube, but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking there’s a hundred Olas in the making out there.



Then somehow you conflated everything in the following section, lessons from friends I know who are or were getting 3-4 guitars FREE per year from ESP, somehow into my "statement" about what it takes to get ANY endorsement:


feraledge said:


> But if you want to be realistic about trying to make a living as a touring musician, you’re talking 300 shows a year. Because holding down a job that lets you take off 45-100 days at a time is a small niche. You basically have to live it. Everyone I know who is at that 3-4 guitars per year level, if they aren’t playing 250-300 shows they got their endorsements when they were and did that for years.


Like it or not, this is what it took for most established metal bands with solid endorsements who are trying to make A LIVING off of music to get to the point where they can now take a couple tours a year and maybe make enough money to fund related jobs (recording, for example).
In short: getting to the point where someone is handing you free guitars takes a fucking lot of work. Getting your foot in the door for artist pricing is relatively easy by comparison. Getting artist pricing from a smaller company is easy. Like I've said, I'm still on the artist roster for Curt Mangan, haven't played a show or recorded in like 7 years.

Done. This is goddamn stupid.


----------



## bostjan

feraledge said:


> @bostjan this is the last I'm saying about any of this. You have been arguing non-points because you conflated everything in my original statement on the matter into "it's 300 shows or nothing" and acting like a turd since.
> 
> I'm highlighting the SAME part you did. Yet you still missed it. What you didn't seem to notice is this is the statement: "Standard fare for any endorsement deal is a platform"
> The rest is clarifiers based on what that traditionally has been and, by and large, still is the case for mainstream companies. Your buddy wound a pickup? Cool. Anyways.
> I then verified that claim by posting a screen shot I took yesterday from ESP saying the same goddamn thing.
> And then further clarifying:
> 
> 
> Then somehow you conflated everything in the following section, lessons from friends I know who are or were getting 3-4 guitars FREE per year from ESP, somehow into my "statement" about what it takes to get ANY endorsement:
> 
> Like it or not, this is what it took for most established metal bands with solid endorsements who are trying to make A LIVING off of music to get to the point where they can now take a couple tours a year and maybe make enough money to fund related jobs (recording, for example).
> In short: getting to the point where someone is handing you free guitars takes a fucking lot of work. Getting your foot in the door for artist pricing is relatively easy by comparison. Getting artist pricing from a smaller company is easy. Like I've said, I'm still on the artist roster for Curt Mangan, haven't played a show or recorded in like 7 years.
> 
> Done. This is goddamn stupid.



I promise not to respond if you stop with the demeaning language and name-calling, then we can simply leave this as the mess it is and not make it worse. How's that?


----------



## prlgmnr

Oh! I've just cottoned on. You're both trying to see who can act the most like Jeff Kiesel so he gives you an endorsement on the basis of seeing you as a kindred spirit.


----------



## feraledge

prlgmnr said:


> Oh! I've just cottoned on. You're both trying to see who can act the most like Jeff Kiesel so he gives you an endorsement on the basis of seeing you as a kindred spirit.


You mean who is more bevel-headed?


----------



## narad

Fred the Shred said:


> Honestly, I just think this whole thing has deviated from the thread in a way that is getting pretty silly here. Conjectures about how strict Kiesel is or is not regarding the requirements and the way they operate on the artist front on a "kiesel never again!" thread is entering silly territory!



Yea, agreed, even though I'm a part of it. But it is basically a Kiesel-hate thread at worst and yet-another-Kiesel-thread at best, so it that far-fetched a topic? I mean, we talked about bevels, and continual refusal to admit they're using the wrong (height) hipshot bridge, everything becoming non-returnable -- now we're just exploring new ways in which Kiesel does it wrong


----------



## arasys

I have to confess I stole feral's custom ESP and left a non-returnable kiesel that has jeff's face as inlays on maple fretboard. I won't apologize for it.


----------



## spudmunkey

arasys said:


> I have to confess I stole feral's custom ESP and left a non-returnable kiesel that has jeff's face as inlays on maple fretboard. I won't apologize for it.



No you didn't. They don't do custom inlays.



via Imgflip Meme Generator

/s


----------



## feraledge

arasys said:


> I have to confess I stole feral's custom ESP and left a non-returnable kiesel that has jeff's face as inlays on maple fretboard. I won't apologize for it.


I have to confess, my custom ESP is fucking dying over the entirety of this thread.


----------



## Seabeast2000

ArtDecade said:


> Both of you are getting ArtDecade stickers in the mail.



This place is great.


----------



## Seabeast2000

feraledge said:


> You mean who is more bevel-headed?



I'm poaching your endorsement from Art. Your sig model Feral BevelBurst Watermelon Bunghole Fade is in the mail.


----------



## wannabguitarist

Fred the Shred said:


> Honestly, I just think this whole thing has deviated from the thread in a way that is getting pretty silly here. Conjectures about how strict Kiesel is or is not regarding the requirements and the way they operate on the artist front on a "kiesel never again!" thread is entering silly territory!



This discussion is far more interesting than OP ranting about certain pieces of gear or brands suck because they don't cater to his exact tastes


----------



## spudmunkey

Avedas said:


> If I get enough likes can my Kiesel have a fretboard with _*TWO*_ colors stained into it?



You know they offer that, right?


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> You know they offer that, right?


Okay I'm not going to lie.... that top one is cool as hell and that bottom one would be amazing with a normal fret board.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

spudmunkey said:


>


Not a fan of the crayonburst fretboard. Too much going on.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

My AM7 is awesome
But the brand is getting to the point where it’s embarrassing to be associated with it. Makes people as angry as a Flat Earther dancing in an off topic forum


----------



## spudmunkey

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Not a fan of the crayonburst fretboard. Too much going on.



I think the lighting doesn't do the colors any favors. The tung-oiled fretboard is going to react so differently from the rest of the guitar in that bright studio lighting, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a "in real life" photo of that one emerged and the colors were much more subdued, like it is with their Fire and Arctic finishes. It's still ugly, but not as obnoxiously so.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Yea, agreed, even though I'm a part of it. But it is basically a Kiesel-hate thread at worst and yet-another-Kiesel-thread at best, so it that far-fetched a topic? I mean, we talked about bevels, and continual refusal to admit they're using the wrong (height) hipshot bridge, everything becoming non-returnable -- now we're just exploring new ways in which Kiesel does it wrong



After endorsements, where do we go?  Their focus on headless guitars when a lot of people don't like them?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Not a fan of the crayonburst fretboard. Too much going on.



I always hated the look of that thing. There's like no uniformity in the color scheme; it looks like a kid took crayons and just decided to stop at random places on the fingerboard. yuck.


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> You know they offer that, right?



What the fuck that fretboard looks like a screenshot of wolfenstein.


----------



## Soya

bostjan said:


> I promise not to respond if you stop with the demeaning language and name-calling, then we can simply leave this as the mess it is and not make it worse. How's that?



If adult language isn't even for adults anymore, THEN WHO IS IT FOR


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Soya said:


> If adult language isn't even for adults anymore, THEN WHO IS IT FOR



Hey fuck you, we need our safe spaces from goddamn foul fucking language!

Hope you realize I'm not being serious and completely agree with you.


----------



## spudmunkey

Since when is calling someone a 'turd' "adult language"? Sounds like about 3rd grade, to me.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Since when is calling someone a 'turd' "adult language"? Sounds like about 3rd grade, to me.



Carol Brady begs do differ...


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Suggested compromise: “turd” (and potentially other expletives) wordfilters to either “Kiesel” or “Jeff Kiesel.”


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Suggested compromise: “turd” (and potentially other expletives) wordfilters to either “Kiesel” or “Jeff Kiesel.”



LMAO nice one


----------



## prlgmnr

Albake21 said:


> Okay I'm not going to lie.... that top one is cool as hell and that bottom one would be amazing with a normal fret board.



This is kind of their signature thing, a guitar that WOULD be amazing if one large distinguishing feature of it was different.


----------



## Robotechnology

Flappydoodle said:


> Also, out of personal preference, I'd much rather be associated with ESP than Kiesel on image alone. ESP has some of the biggest names in all of rock and metal music. Kiesel has a bunch of YouTubers (thus explaining in all fairness why Andy James may fit in better with Kiesel)



When I think Carvin/Kiesel, I think these people:

Jason Becker
Frank Gambale
Alan Holdsworth
Greg Howe
Tony MacAlpine
Craig Chaquico
Bunny Brunel

And they sure as heck aren’t/weren’t youtubers... not sure why people hate on this company so much. Do I think all their guitars have tonal mojo? No, I don’t. I’ve owned two. One is great and the other played well but was meh in terms of tone (like I find some CT series guitars to be) so I no longer have that one. How people can say that Carvin/Kiesel’s build quality is not consistently great I just don’t see. Their wood quality is stellar. Their playability is stellar. Their aesthetics are personal preference but, I think 70% of their models are gorgeous. As I’ve said, not all of their guitars come with what I consider great tone... nor do they all sound dead. They’re mostly in the middle but, do make some tone monsters too. But maybe having such an easily accessible custom shop makes it easy to pair woods and specs that look great but, don’t necessarily sound awesome together. Just don’t understand all the hate. I think they do way more good work than they do bad. Every company let’s a few out that leave something to be desired so Kiesel is not exception however, that’s exactly what those are exceptions not the rule.


----------



## failsafe

Check this out. This is from the Keisel FB group. Typical Keisel customer service!

Hey guys! Seeking a little help here. Received a Kiesel in April 2017. Almost right away I noticed that the fretboard had cracked and the guitar was shipped back to Kiesel. I asked for a rebuild but they guaranteed that gluing the fretboard would be sufficient. I wasn't 100% happy with that decision since the guitar was brand new but I thought I'd give it a chance.

Dec 2017, the same crack starts spreading again. I send them an email and they say that they can inspect the instrument but I'd have to pay for shipping this time. After I posted about it here and people were horrified (as was I), they offered me a free return label.

I basically gave them three options:

1) a refund
2) a rebuild
3) a new fretboard

Joe, their service manager, told me they would discuss different options with me once they've inspected the guitar. Yesterday I learned that Jeff had decided that they'll be gluing the fretboard again. They didn't inform me at all or seemed to be even remotely interested in what I had to say. Joe was clearly very apologetic about the fact that Jeff had decided to fix the same 1!!### fretboard again and not offer me a better solution.

This is the email I got from Joe yesterday (3/1/2018):

"Our head guitar tech is working on repairing the fretboard right now; he hopes to be done with it by early next week. "

What would you guys do? I honestly can't recommend Kiesel to anyone. I paid a lot for a brand new top quality custom guitar and they're thinking this is acceptable. They're a great company but once there's an issue, they seem to take all the possible short-cuts and not think about the long-term effects.

I know they'll delete this very quickly because they don't want any sort of negative publicity.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i'd demand a refund or threaten a lawsuit if I was that guy. Cracking fretboard is a SERIOUS issue and requires a FULL rebuild (unless it's a bolt on guitar, then just build the dude a new neck FFS)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

BTW @failsafe can you give me a link so I can archive it?


----------



## bostjan

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Suggested compromise: “turd” (and potentially other expletives) wordfilters to either “Kiesel” or “Jeff Kiesel.”


Hey now, that could start some real fistfights! 



failsafe said:


> Check this out. This is from the Keisel FB group. Typical Keisel customer service!
> 
> Hey guys! Seeking a little help here. Received a Kiesel in April 2017. Almost right away I noticed that the fretboard had cracked and the guitar was shipped back to Kiesel. I asked for a rebuild but they guaranteed that gluing the fretboard would be sufficient. I wasn't 100% happy with that decision since the guitar was brand new but I thought I'd give it a chance.
> 
> Dec 2017, the same crack starts spreading again. I send them an email and they say that they can inspect the instrument but I'd have to pay for shipping this time. After I posted about it here and people were horrified (as was I), they offered me a free return label.
> 
> I basically gave them three options:
> 
> 1) a refund
> 2) a rebuild
> 3) a new fretboard
> 
> Joe, their service manager, told me they would discuss different options with me once they've inspected the guitar. Yesterday I learned that Jeff had decided that they'll be gluing the fretboard again. They didn't inform me at all or seemed to be even remotely interested in what I had to say. Joe was clearly very apologetic about the fact that Jeff had decided to fix the same 1!!### fretboard again and not offer me a better solution.
> 
> This is the email I got from Joe yesterday (3/1/2018):
> 
> "Our head guitar tech is working on repairing the fretboard right now; he hopes to be done with it by early next week. "
> 
> What would you guys do? I honestly can't recommend Kiesel to anyone. I paid a lot for a brand new top quality custom guitar and they're thinking this is acceptable. They're a great company but once there's an issue, they seem to take all the possible short-cuts and not think about the long-term effects.
> 
> I know they'll delete this very quickly because they don't want any sort of negative publicity.
> View attachment 59505



You've got to be firm. You gave three options that were reasonable, since you've had the guitar such a short time. When they say shit like "oh, we'll just glue it again," respond with "No. You've tried that, against my wishes, and it didn't work. I am not willing to accept that as a reasonable plan of action." The word no holds the power. You could even just email them a "No." and call them on the telephone and just say "No." Once you hem or haw at the option, your legal recourse starts to fade away quickly. They sold you a product with a defect and rather than address the defect, they put a bandaid on it and now it's back again. They know what they're doing, they are just trying to get you to hush up until after enough time has passed that they can say that this isn't their fault. They will delete your posts and ban you and so on. Don't let that discourage you, though, since those things hold no power. You aren't going to buy more defective products from them anyway.


----------



## failsafe

bostjan said:


> You've got to be firm. You gave three options that were reasonable, since you've had the guitar such a short time. When they say shit like "oh, we'll just glue it again," respond with "No. You've tried that, against my wishes, and it didn't work. I am not willing to accept that as a reasonable plan of action." The word no holds the power. You could even just email them a "No." and call them on the telephone and just say "No." Once you hem or haw at the option, your legal recourse starts to fade away quickly. They sold you a product with a defect and rather than address the defect, they put a bandaid on it and now it's back again. They know what they're doing, they are just trying to get you to hush up until after enough time has passed that they can say that this isn't their fault. They will delete your posts and ban you and so on. Don't let that discourage you, though, since those things hold no power. You aren't going to buy more defective products from them anyway.


For the record, this is not my guitar, it’s a guy on the Keisel FB page. I just wanted to share another example of Keisel dropping the ball, HARD.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Robotechnology said:


> Every company let’s a few out that leave something to be desired so Kiesel is not exception however, that’s exactly what those are exceptions not the rule.



Great; now I’m crosseyed.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

In what world is re-gluing even a thought when it comes to repairing that? Embarassing .


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Chokey Chicken said:


> In what world is re-gluing even a thought when it comes to repairing that? Embarassing .



Jeff trying to cheapen out because he's a dumbass. He doesn't want to use any of his wood to rebuild that guitar because it costs him money. He is trying to steal people's money, ergo gluing a crack in the fingerboard. The more I see of stuff like this, the more I'm glad I went back to Ibanez.


----------



## Fred the Shred

And yet another case where, apparently, only one person chooses to crap on the customer's satisfaction, not to mention the seriousness of the issue itself - it can happen even with solid drying procedures, so it isn't necessarily an improperly dried piece of wood (although, let's face it, it is the most common culprit by far), but it's not on the customer to address it, and least of all something that can be solved by simply gluing it and hoping for the best, which has failed before to boot.

I don't understand it, I just don't. Why sabotage one's own company's ability to provide satisfactory customer care?


----------



## V_man

failsafe said:


> Check this out. This is from the Keisel FB group. Typical Keisel customer service!
> 
> Hey guys! Seeking a little help here. Received a Kiesel in April 2017. Almost right away I noticed that the fretboard had cracked and the guitar was shipped back to Kiesel. I asked for a rebuild but they guaranteed that gluing the fretboard would be sufficient. I wasn't 100% happy with that decision since the guitar was brand new but I thought I'd give it a chance.
> 
> Dec 2017, the same crack starts spreading again. I send them an email and they say that they can inspect the instrument but I'd have to pay for shipping this time. After I posted about it here and people were horrified (as was I), they offered me a free return label.
> 
> I basically gave them three options:
> 
> 1) a refund
> 2) a rebuild
> 3) a new fretboard
> 
> Joe, their service manager, told me they would discuss different options with me once they've inspected the guitar. Yesterday I learned that Jeff had decided that they'll be gluing the fretboard again. They didn't inform me at all or seemed to be even remotely interested in what I had to say. Joe was clearly very apologetic about the fact that Jeff had decided to fix the same 1!!### fretboard again and not offer me a better solution.
> 
> This is the email I got from Joe yesterday (3/1/2018):
> 
> "Our head guitar tech is working on repairing the fretboard right now; he hopes to be done with it by early next week. "
> 
> What would you guys do? I honestly can't recommend Kiesel to anyone. I paid a lot for a brand new top quality custom guitar and they're thinking this is acceptable. They're a great company but once there's an issue, they seem to take all the possible short-cuts and not think about the long-term effects.
> 
> I know they'll delete this very quickly because they don't want any sort of negative publicity.
> View attachment 59505




guau I have never seen a crack that goes that deep into the wood of the freatboard


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Fred the Shred said:


> And yet another case where, apparently, only one person chooses to crap on the customer's satisfaction, not to mention the seriousness of the issue itself - it can happen even with solid drying procedures, so it isn't necessarily an improperly dried piece of wood (although, let's face it, it is the most common culprit by far), but it's not on the customer to address it, and least of all something that can be solved by simply gluing it and hoping for the best, which has failed before to boot.
> 
> I don't understand it, I just don't. Why sabotage one's own company's ability to provide satisfactory customer care?



Because of his oversized ego. He can't accept that his way isn't the right way and wants to screw low tier customers in favor of high rollers who buy his lame RGD copy K series.


----------



## Robotechnology

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Great; now I’m crosseyed.



Sorry forgot a comma!


----------



## bostjan

failsafe said:


> For the record, this is not my guitar, it’s a guy on the Keisel FB page. I just wanted to share another example of Keisel dropping the ball, HARD.


Oh, okay, phew. That's a relief.


Chokey Chicken said:


> In what world is re-gluing even a thought when it comes to repairing that? Embarassing .


When you need to fix something fast and not think about long term effects. 


Fred the Shred said:


> And yet another case where, apparently, only one person chooses to crap on the customer's satisfaction, not to mention the seriousness of the issue itself - it can happen even with solid drying procedures, so it isn't necessarily an improperly dried piece of wood (although, let's face it, it is the most common culprit by far), but it's not on the customer to address it, and least of all something that can be solved by simply gluing it and hoping for the best, which has failed before to boot.
> 
> I don't understand it, I just don't. Why sabotage one's own company's ability to provide satisfactory customer care?


The first signs of trouble with the brand were concerning, but now it has reached the level of alarming. I had quite a bit of respect for Carvin going back. They adopted seven strings when they weren't that cool, and I came very close to buying one on several occasions. I used their pro audio stuff pretty much exclusively in the late 1990's, because it was cheap and durable. Since Jeff has been involved, it just seems to all be getting very weird. They came up with some bold designs and it was looking good for a minute, but now these CS complaints are mounding up and the way the company is dealing with them is deplorable.


----------



## spudmunkey

This isn't a reply to anyone's post or even necessarily this situation, but just thought it was a relevant-to-the-conversation anecdote.

This morning, I'm on a job site where we have $30,000+ solid wood fully-custom table that developed a crack. The top is 1.5" thick solid hickory, from wood that had been sitting in a warehouse for nearly 2 years. The wood had developed a crack from the end grain overnight, that extends nearly 3ft into the table, all the way through the table top for at least the first 10" or so. The manufacturer's warranty solution: "give us the opportunity to repair it. If it doesn't meet your satisfaction, allow is to try one more time to adjust/refine the repair. If, then, the repair is still not satisfactory, we will replace it."

Interestingly, in this case, if they DO end up replacing it, the customer is on the hook for the several thousand dollars they will need to spend to have all of the AV/IT equipment disconnected and removed, and then to come back and re-install, re-connect, and re-test all of the equipment.


----------



## Flappydoodle

spudmunkey said:


> This isn't a reply to anyone's post or even necessarily this situation, but just thought it was a relevant-to-the-conversation anecdote.
> 
> This morning, I'm on a job site where we have $30,000+ solid wood fully-custom table that developed a crack. The top is 1.5" thick solid hickory, from wood that had been sitting in a warehouse for nearly 2 years. The wood had developed a crack from the end grain overnight, that extends nearly 3ft into the table, all the way through the table top for at least the first 10" or so. The manufacturer's warranty solution: "give us the opportunity to repair it. If it doesn't meet your satisfaction, allow is to try one more time to adjust/refine the repair. If, then, the repair is still not satisfactory, we will replace it."
> 
> Interestingly, in this case, if they DO end up replacing it, the customer is on the hook for the several thousand dollars they will need to spend to have all of the AV/IT equipment disconnected and removed, and then to come back and re-install, re-connect, and re-test all of the equipment.



That sounds like good customer service at least. Obviously with the value being so high, them asking to have the change to repair it makes sense. Maybe they spend $500 on repairs, but they have the chance to save something which will sell for $30k, so it makes sense.

Working with wood, this stuff happens. It cracks. That's something you have to deal with. It's part and parcel of being in that line of work.

In the case of that fretboard, just replace the damn thing. It takes a few hours, might cost $100 of raw materials. Just replace it, instead of being cheap, trying to glue it, failing, wasting time shipping things back and forth etc.


----------



## Exit Existence

I think I've stayed away from posting this thread ( Allthough I've read all of it over time)

I love my Kiesel guitars. They are up there with the best guitars I've ever played. The hardware, the woods, the finish, the stainless frets. Amazing value for the money.

What pisses me the F off is how such an amazing company that can offer so much value and has so much potential can just dump loyal customers in the trash when something goes wrong. They have this "Yo Bro Join the family, we are your family we care about you...we do this all for you guys....we could charge more but we don't" attitude but when a customer has a valid complaint it's full on "F You Sorry" or "Its your fault your fretboard cracked"


My DC700 fretboard also shrunk and cracked too in it's first winter. It had so much fret sprout that It cracked the finish along all the frets where the tang was now exposed.











I've owned over 40 guitars in my lifetime, many high end guitars with ebony fretboards. I keep my shit humidified, oil my fretboards about every 2-3 months. Keep them away from dry heat. Why have I never had an issue with any of my other guitars. What's crazy is that people will defend them saying that this sort of stuff is "normal" or is my fault for not taking care of them ... when I do.

I'll continue to buy Kiesel because I think the overall value and quality is still the best out there.. but I won't be getting any more ebony boards from them and probably not any finished necks in the future.


----------



## spudmunkey

Flappydoodle said:


> Working with wood, this stuff happens. It cracks. That's something you have to deal with. It's part and parcel of being in that line of work.



This. 3 weeks ago we repaired 6 tables in NY that cracked, and last week we decided not to repair a table in Chicago that cracked, because the special finish would have cost more to repair than the value of just buying a new coffee table. In every case of working with custom furniture, the quotes from the manufacturers ALWAYS include a blurb that says something like "solid wood is a natural product, and subject to some cupping, bowing, twisting, and cracks. ___________ is not liable for these naturally-occurring effects." The different with the $30K table was that we just delivered it last week, so the manufacturer is stepping up.

In this case...man, I just don't get it. I'm such a self-professed/admitted fanboy of theirs, but this is (honestly) the only thing that really rubs me the wrong way, knowing what good customer service means (having to live it all day, every day, for the 23 years I've been employed , with every job having some customer service aspect to it).


----------



## Frostbite

Exit Existence said:


> I think I've stayed away from posting this thread ( Allthough I've read all of it over time)
> 
> I love my Kiesel guitars. They are up there with the best guitars I've ever played. The hardware, the woods, the finish, the stainless frets. Amazing value for the money.
> 
> What pisses me the F off is how such an amazing company that can offer so much value and has so much potential can just dump loyal customers in the trash when something goes wrong. They have this "Yo Bro Join the family, we are your family we care about you...we do this all for you guys....we could charge more but we don't" attitude but when a customer has a valid complaint it's full on "F You Sorry" or "Its your fault your fretboard cracked"
> 
> 
> My DC700 fretboard also shrunk and cracked too in it's first winter. It had so much fret sprout that It cracked the finish along all the frets where the tang was now exposed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've owned over 40 guitars in my lifetime, many high end guitars with ebony fretboards. I keep my shit humidified, oil my fretboards about every 2-3 months. Keep them away from dry heat. Why have I never had an issue with any of my other guitars. What's crazy is that people will defend them saying that this sort of stuff is "normal" or is my fault for not taking care of them ... when I do.
> 
> I'll continue to buy Kiesel because I think the overall value and quality is still the best out there.. but I won't be getting any more ebony boards from them and probably not any finished necks in the future.


Oddly enough, my Carvin TL-60 has that same issue with the finish on the sides of the fretboard cracking out


----------



## Exit Existence

I mean that I guess I can understand. Fretboards can shrink slightly and cause fret sprout, I'd consider that normal. Kiesel is one of the few companies that finish over the sides of the fretboard, so there's really not much to avoid that from happening. The cracking under general use and proper care though is just not right


----------



## diagrammatiks

never seen a crack that bad on any of my ebony fretboards or any of my other fretboards.

as always though...the best part of those kiesel threads is the comments from the other owners. it's the only reason i stay in that group


----------



## spudmunkey

Frostbite said:


> Oddly enough, my Carvin TL-60 has that same issue with the finish on the sides of the fretboard cracking out



So does my early 2000s AC375.

That said, my Prestige Ibanez cracked through it's fretboard binding at every fret, my Gibson les Paul studio cracked it's fretboard and had the same fretsprout-caused-finish blisters on the edges of the unbound fretboard, and my taylor K24CE has little bumps on the bass side on about 2/3 of the frets. But I will testify that I'm sure my HVAC situation doesn't help. Our furnace hasn't work for 2 years, and even when it did, it was one of those wall-mounted gas heaters that never really warmed the whole house anyway, with no humidifiers other than the steam that escapes from my tiny bathroom where the exhaust fan just can't keep up, or steam from cooking pasta on the stove top, and I keep my guitars on stands, and soon on the wall.  Pretty much a worst-case scenario.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Exit Existence said:


> What pisses me the F off is how such an amazing company that can offer so much value and has so much potential can just dump loyal customers in the trash when something goes wrong. They have this "Yo Bro Join the family, we are your family we care about you...we do this all for you guys....we could charge more but we don't" attitude but when a customer has a valid complaint it's full on "F You Sorry" or "Its your fault your fretboard cracked"



This is EXACTLY what I find mind boggling: if everything was just a shitshow of unsalvageable incompetence, from crap materials to shoddy building under the guise of "budget conscious", nobody would really care all that much, especially on this forum - "oh look, another shit company, thanks for the heads up, NEXT!" -, but they are capable of putting out pretty cool guitars for sure, and many of the folks here (myself included) played a ton of great Carvins / Kiesels, and to just take the reputation of the company and toss in the bin for a couple hundred bucks is just absurd.

You screw up your repeating customers' word of mouth value, you make people weary of having a problem which will simply not be fixed unless you throw a hissy fit online and even then you can be shafted regardless. They build in volume, so it's natural that a flaw will appear here and there, so why not address it in a way that reinforces trust in the company and a positive image?


----------



## spudmunkey

What i think is also hilarious are the people upset about these FB posts being deleted...from kiesel's own facebook group. Like...well, no shit if you spraypaint "BK SUX" on a Burger King billboard, I don't see how one could be suprised to see it removed at some point. Even if they do suck (I used to work there...I can say that here. No...wait...anyone can say Burger King sucks here...see how that works? ).


----------



## failsafe

And the post is gone. Shocker.


----------



## bostjan

spudmunkey said:


> What i think is also hilarious are the people upset about these FB posts being deleted...from kiesel's own facebook group. Like...well, no shit if you spraypaint "BK SUX" on a Burger King billboard, I don't see how one could be suprised to see it removed at some point. Even if they do suck (I used to work there...I can say that here. No...wait...anyone can say Burger King sucks here...see how that works? ).


Posting on social media is a little different than vandalizing someone's property.


----------



## Exit Existence

I covered the name because I respect their wishes not to plaster their name on a forum, but look what the first response from a Kiesel Employee is.





I guess that's their stance on this, literally black and white.
If a customer has a valid complaint about bad customer service....

1. Its your fault, not ours
2. Ban them.
3. Delete thread.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> What i think is also hilarious are the people upset about these FB posts being deleted...from kiesel's own facebook group. Like...well, no shit if you spraypaint "BK SUX" on a Burger King billboard, I don't see how one could be suprised to see it removed at some point. Even if they do suck (I used to work there...I can say that here. No...wait...anyone can say Burger King sucks here...see how that works? ).



What about when Jeff threw a fit and wanted stuff here deleted?

But, if you have time, go to the official FB or Instagram of other guitar manufacturers. Does Ibanez delete all the negative comments? Schecter? 

In this industry, and most for that matter, good customer service is vital. Deleting negative comments, especially valid ones is not doing anyone a favor, even Kiesel. Stuff like that cracked fretboard is a PERFECT opportunity to show everyone why they should buy a Kiesel. You turn that situation around. Take care of the customer, go above and beyond and what is now "crack-gate" could easily become an advertisement of how great Kiesel is.

Since you like talking work anecdotes, when someone has a problem with a product my company makes, even if it's not at all our fault, we send them a stack of vouchers for freebies, shirts, hats all kinds of stuff. Why? Because even if it doesn't directly fix the problem it makes people happy and even if they never buy from us again they'll still tell all thier friends and family how chill and awesome we were.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> What about when Jeff threw a fit and wanted stuff here deleted?



I have no problem with that. I'm not saying I agree, but it's his right to be upset, ask/demand, and it's even his right to speak with advertising dollars. *shrugs*


----------



## cip 123

Exit Existence said:


> I've owned over 40 guitars in my lifetime, many high end guitars with ebony fretboards. I keep my shit humidified, oil my fretboards about every 2-3 months. Keep them away from dry heat. Why have I never had an issue with any of my other guitars. What's crazy is that people will defend them saying that this sort of stuff is "normal" or is my fault for not taking care of them ... when I do.
> 
> I'll continue to buy Kiesel because I think the overall value and quality is still the best out there.. but I won't be getting any more ebony boards from them and probably not any finished necks in the future.



If you've owned high end guitars for a number of years, and kiesel is the only one you've had this problem with...why would you still buy them if they're "value and quality" causes fretboard cracking when no other company does. I've owned Korean guitars with ebony boards that haven't cracked, countless companies build and ship guitars with those fretboards all over the world. 

I get that you like them but when a product is faulty, how is that good value and quality compared to any other brand?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

failsafe said:


> And the post is gone. Shocker.



thats why i told you to post the link here so i could archive it. Now we lost some good evidence to keep people away.


----------



## failsafe

MatiasTolkki said:


> thats why i told you to post the link here so i could archive it. Now we lost some good evidence to keep people away.


Lesson learned. At least we have the OP’s text and a pic that he included.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I have no problem with that. I'm not saying I agree, but it's his right to be upset, ask/demand, and it's even his right to speak with advertising dollars. *shrugs*



Well yeah, it's his right to. I don't think anyone is saying his actions are illegal. 

He's got the right to be a dick to customers. 

We've got a right to voice our opinions of that, just as you the right to defend him. 

Jeff paid for ad space. He didn't buy part ownership of the site. He was entitled to the exposure.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, my main beef with Jeff is that I think he’s leaving a lot of money on the table. His pride and ego seem to be getting in the way of him making good business decisions. I’m on board with what Max said. And I’ve been a Carvin fan since high school. But I’m less excited now that Jeff is in charge, because my personal experiences with the company have been bad, compared to before, and it seems to be the case with many others.


----------



## narad

Man, I used to cherish those Carvin booklets that came in the mail when I was back in high school. Not sure how I got on that mailing list because I was playing epiphone, but that pamphlet gave me the feeling like you were hiring a bespoke tailor or something, and they were going to make me something out of walnut, with abalone block inlays...like some classy furniture or an heirloom. I basically had more respect for Carvin then than I do any luthier today.

Now it reminds me of Hot Topic... Guy Fieri... Tasmanian Devil tattoos... a shirt you get for eating a ludicrously large burger at a highway truckstop ...just kinda free associating here.

But man, it just takes *so* much to change an opinion that drastically.


----------



## feraledge

narad said:


> Guy Fieri


Jeff might look like he went clothes shopping in Flavortown, but Guy delivers and supports other people/companies. They might look like tight bros, but let's not sully the Fieri's rep by associating him with such devoutly and endemically spiraling trash like Kiesel.


----------



## feraledge

Also, at this point, I think it needs to be stated plainly: Kiesel =/= Carvin
If Jeff is going to such vast lengths to both rebrand and kill off all things Carvin, then we shouldn't be trying to convince him otherwise. He clearly has looked at Carvin with disgust and was seemingly overjoyed that he could take what his family built and pour Faygo all over it. 
Carvin had a reputation.
Kiesel has an image. 

Carvin is gone. Long live Carvin.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

feraledge said:


> Also, at this point, I think it needs to be stated plainly: Kiesel =/= Carvin
> If Jeff is going to such vast lengths to both rebrand and kill off all things Carvin, then we shouldn't be trying to convince him otherwise. He clearly has looked at Carvin with disgust and was seemingly overjoyed that he could take what his family built and pour Faygo all over it.
> Carvin had a reputation.
> Kiesel has an image.
> 
> Carvin is gone. Long live Carvin.



And this is exactly why I love my JB200 but have not gotten along with my V220. Yes, I designed it with Craig Chaquico in mind, but it's not a carvin. I regret not getting the Carvin logo on it, because that Kiesel logo spoils the whole damn guitar. I still play my JB200 from time to time and I still think it's the nicest guitar I own, but it's a CARVIN.


----------



## Hollowway

narad said:


> Man, I used to cherish those Carvin booklets that came in the mail when I was back in high school. Not sure how I got on that mailing list because I was playing epiphone, but that pamphlet gave me the feeling like you were hiring a bespoke tailor or something, and they were going to make me something out of walnut, with abalone block inlays...like some classy furniture or an heirloom. I basically had more respect for Carvin then than I do any luthier today.
> 
> Now it reminds me of Hot Topic... Guy Fieri... Tasmanian Devil tattoos... a shirt you get for eating a ludicrously large burger at a highway truckstop ...just kinda free associating here.
> 
> But man, it just takes *so* much to change an opinion that drastically.



Exactly! I would save those catalogs, and my friend and I would sit there for like and hour staring at them. I’d have given anything for a Carvin in those days. Fast forward, I moved to California, and was able to go to the Santa Ana and Sacramento stores. And eventually the factory. I loved it! I bought a few guitars from them, and wanted to just hang out there all day. 

Ok, now I’m just reminiscing.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> What i think is also hilarious are the people upset about these FB posts being deleted...from kiesel's own facebook group. Like...well, no shit if you spraypaint "BK SUX" on a Burger King billboard, I don't see how one could be suprised to see it removed at some point. Even if they do suck (I used to work there...I can say that here. No...wait...anyone can say Burger King sucks here...see how that works? ).



that post was never posted to the official kiesel group.
that's the owners and fans group which is an open group to discuss kiesel.
Kiesel has no part in it other then the fact that their sales people thugs sometimes post there. Jeff has never posted there.

It's the equivalent of a burger king fan group where if you ask if bk has any issues every tell you to fuck off and die.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

diagrammatiks said:


> that post was never posted to the official kiesel group.
> that's the owners and fans group which is an open group to discuss kiesel.
> Kiesel has no part in it other then the fact that their sales people thugs sometimes post there. Jeff has never posted there.
> 
> It's the equivalent of a burger king fan group where if you ask if bk has any issues every tell you to fuck off and die.



Jeff wont post or acknowledge anyone who doesn't stroke his ego at least 100 times.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Feraledge touched on this, but I find myself asking every other month:

Why do Carvin-loyalists believe they’re obliged to demonstrate devotion to Kiesel?

Most of the “butwhatabouts” I read from their fanboys cite old Carvin policies that are no longer honored (10 day, no-questions asked return window, defective guitars being destroyed and a new build made for the customer, what some braggard’s Carvin build cost ten years before the yearly price hikes under a different brand were instituted, guitars being built to spec and shipped at the date originally quoted, that the sales people were there to answer any and all questions, etc.). Those policies are memorable because they were intended to extend gestures of good will toward potential first-time and repeat-customers: “Let’s see Fender and Gibson make you feel this welcome.”

I understand people _feeling_ that the CarvinBBS and Facebook groups having the carpets pulled out from under them and replaced with “Kiesel” branding didn’t shake their insular bubbles enough to warrant moving on in life.

But the same people judging and passing Kiesel by Carvin’s merits - in just that one direction - are simply failing to be principled in judging Carvin (Mark) for what Kiesel (Jeff) has done with the inherited consumer base, SKUs, industry standing, artist roster, advertising, and reputable ethic.

The deceased Carvin, and the memories associated with it, is what these people love; and that legacy is safely in the past - but the non-sequitor of addressing problems of the present by focusing on defending the past does nothing to ensure the future.

The mentality I infer from these posts made by unpaid, self-appointed members of Kiesel’s PR department, for no reason bigger than the two Carvins they have in their closet, is no less absurd than if everyone who identified as a fan of Barack Obama felt obligated to defend Donald Trump for no reason other than that he inherited the presidential title. And then all their pro-Trump arguments are based in how much they liked Obama.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Feraledge touched on this, but I find myself asking every other month:
> 
> Why do Carvin-loyalists believe they’re obliged to demonstrate devotion to Kiesel?
> 
> Most of the “butwhatabouts” I read from their fanboys cite old Carvin policies that are no longer honored (10 day, no-questions asked return window, defective guitars being destroyed and a new build made for the customer, what some braggard’s Carvin build cost ten years before the yearly price hikes under a different brand were instituted, guitars being built to spec and shipped at the date originally quoted, that the sales people were there to answer any and all questions, etc.). Those policies are memorable because they were intended to extend gestures of good will toward potential first-time and repeat-customers: “Let’s see Fender and Gibson make you feel this welcome.”
> 
> I understand people _feeling_ that the CarvinBBS and Facebook groups having the carpets pulled out from under them and replaced with “Kiesel” branding didn’t shake their insular bubbles enough to warrant moving on in life.
> 
> But the same people judging and passing Kiesel by Carvin’s merits - in just that one direction - are simply failing to be principled in judging Carvin (Mark) for what Kiesel (Jeff) has done with the inherited consumer base, SKUs, industry standing, artist roster, advertising, and reputable ethic.
> 
> The deceased Carvin, and the memories associated with it, is what these people love; and that legacy is safely in the past - but the non-sequitor of addressing problems of the present by focusing on defending the past does nothing to ensure the future.
> 
> The mentality I infer from these posts made by unpaid, self-appointed members of Kiesel’s PR department, for no reason bigger than the two Carvins they have in their closet, is no less absurd than if everyone who identified as a fan of Barack Obama felt obligated to defend Donald Trump for no reason other than that he inherited the presidential title. And then all their pro-Trump arguments are based in how much they liked Obama.



I'll just say that I supported trump because he was NOT Obama and destroyed the TPP, but enough politics out of me, I need to get away from it.

As for your Kiesel/Carvin comments, that's exactly how I felt when the name change happened, as you probably know I was a REALLY big defender of Carvin and supporter of the brand. As you saw earlier in this thread, a couple people are watching how I have "turned against" them because Jeff pissed me off one too many times. I have always said this: I love my Carvin, and I still play it now. My Kiesel? Not so much. My carvin just feels a lot better and I was kinda underwhelmed when I got the v220. I was happy to have it, don't get me wrong, and I had been gassing for one FOREVER, but it didn't meet the expectations I had for it compared to my JB200. Even with all of that, I have been bitching about Jeff's anti-Japan bullshit for a couple years already, and there were threads I would bring it up because it just started pushing me away from the brand. Now I am free of the chains that bonded me, and can see much more clearly what is going on.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

k


----------



## Jonathan20022

Wonder when the next happy Kiesel customer will stop by to say "Wow all this hate, but I love my Kiesels and they're amazing, I'm treated so well!"

It's clearly fucking obvious that Jeff doesn't like fixing his own mistakes in satisfactory ways and that's where he's losing people. I was just as blind back when I had a few, but if it could happen to someone on their first guitar or someone who way a big fan with multiple instruments. Then what makes people even feel remotely safe about ordering this garbage?

We're humans, and if Kiesel realized this and left those negative posts with follow ups from them and the customer both acknowledging that an appropriate solution was reached people would think better of them. Something bad happened, and it sucks but it will inevitably occur. But making it right restores confidence across the board in the brand.

In my case Jeff would hook me up pretty regularly with my own choice of tops/discounts/free options. Which was great when things were going great, but I don't even think twice about ever owning another guitar from them again. Which is a shame because like many others, I find Chris to be such a model person and employee doing his best when he's driven between Jeff and a disappointed customer.

Eventually he'll run out of new customers to bait with this family bullshit talk. There is no family or community besides the one customers make for themselves. Kiesel is a business selling you a product and you are their target market, they're not doing you any favors and blind loyalty isn't getting reciprocated.

And like I said, no one is perfect. I had an issue with my first Aristides 070 I ever got, which was inflicted by Fedex/Customs damaging my finish during inspection. Without questions asked, the team asked me if I would allow them a chance to fix it and they OVERNIGHT shipped my guitar back and forth from Florida to the Netherlands and attempted to fix the issue. The fix was harder to perfect than imagined, so they let me keep and play that first 070 while they rebuilt it and we swapped the guitars at NAMM when it was finished. And to top it off, they even let me change all the specs at no cost to me. 90% of this going above and beyond, Kiesel doesn't need to do any of this. They just need to humbly acknowledge that slip ups occur and suck it up with a swift fix. They achieve nothing by cutting ties in a childish way with people that will keep feeding their business money if kept satisfied with solutions that hardly cost anything.

But what happens to me when I get a guitar literally dinged from the Kiesel factory and returned in worse condition? Get mocked by Jeff after I threaten to simply call my bank and chargeback the purchase if he doesn't refund me. Which is ridiculous for even getting to the point where my only option WAS to chargeback the funds. And later finding out that I had to pay return shipping on a defective guitar/further damaged instrument. It's bordering those episodes of Gordon Ramsey visiting a restaurant and uncovering a business doing poorly and running itself into the ground with a delusional and childish owner.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i think I remember that story. weren't people talking about that on the kiesel forums?


----------



## Axayacatl

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'll just say that I supported trump because he was NOT Obama. Now I am free of the chains that bonded me, and can see much more clearly what is going on.



Just fixing your quote so that posterity is kind to you. 

Are Kiesel now selling roasted maple necks or is that another super unique and complicated manufacturing process that they can advertise and charge for, but not guarantee?

The Osiris 7 is tempting me, but even the mafia would be a more dependable family than Kiesel.

Count me as a person who has a long standing interest in buying a Kiesel guitar and is not buying one thanks to the horror stories here.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Axayacatl said:


> Just fixing your quote so that posterity is kind to you.
> 
> Are Kiesel now selling roasted maple necks or is that another super unique and complicated manufacturing process that they can advertise and charge for, but not guarantee?
> 
> The Osiris 7 is tempting me, but even the mafia would be a more dependable family than Kiesel.
> 
> Count me as a person who has a long standing interest in buying a Kiesel guitar and is not buying one thanks to the horror stories here.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

So who saw the pathetic attempt at PRS' northern lights finish that kiesel posted recently?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> So who saw the pathetic attempt at PRS' northern lights finish that kiesel posted recently?



Pic?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> Pic?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Gotta be honest, that looks EXACTLY the same as the PRS finish...


----------



## narad




----------



## jerm

not sure that finish is something to be called pathetic....looks great to me.


----------



## cip 123

If compared directly to a PRS, it looks more washed out and PRS looks more vibrant. But I wouldn't say it's a bad finish, just different.


----------



## technomancer

Axayacatl said:


> Are Kiesel now selling roasted maple necks or is that another super unique and complicated manufacturing process that they can advertise and charge for, but not guarantee?



No they are not selling roasted maple... it's just a finish. Basically they are coloring normal maple to look like roasted and calling it "Baked KTB".

Also if anyone thinks that Kiesel looks like a PRS Northern Lights they need their eyes examined  Also waiting for Jeff to claim PRS copied that finish from them


----------



## Jake

technomancer said:


> No they are not selling roasted maple... it's just a finish. Basically they are coloring normal maple to look like roasted and calling it "Baked KTB".


This is weak. Didn't know they were doing it but not shocked. Probably a ridiculous upcharge for it too.


technomancer said:


> Also if anyone thinks that Kiesel looks like a PRS Northern Lights they need their eyes examined  Also waiting for Jeff to claim PRS copied that finish from them


Agreed  I can't stand this guy at this point.


----------



## Semi-pro

If they only committed to being a ISO 9001 certified company, it would address all their faults. It's such basic stuff, literally the _lowest_ threshold/demand in usual B2B, yet effective as f*** way of making sure your business is only going forward instead of repeating the same old mistakes all the time. Besides, it's been measured (there are enough books about cost efficiency and production plannign etc for anyone interested) that cutting waste and preventing mistakes is more effective to the profit of the company than just raising prices in order to increase the sales margin. It would a) eventually address to all the customer complaints and make repetitive issues disappear b) increase their efficiency in a coherent way instead of trying to go by feel. What a derp CEO for not getting into that, that's my 2 cents.


----------



## cip 123

Does the US not have returns laws?

EU has pretty straight forward laws which mean most businesses must offer a standard level of service. One of them being 14 day returns with no justification. Obviously not saying it would work in the US but I'm unclear on US law, there is no laws like this?


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Does the US not have returns laws?



Nope. At least nothing anywhere near what I know the UK/EU have. That said, would that 14 day return "with no justification" apply to custom-made items? Mandating that that by law doesn't seem reasonable to me, if that's the case.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

You guys need your eyes checked if you think that kiesel is anywhere as good as PRS' northern lights finish


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> Gotta be honest, that looks EXACTLY the same as the PRS finish...


Lmao ok


----------



## spudmunkey

Semi-pro said:


> If they only committed to being a ISO 9001 certified company, it would address all their faults. It's such basic stuff, literally the _lowest_ threshold/demand in usual B2B, yet effective as f*** way of making sure your business is only going forward instead of repeating the same old mistakes all the time. Besides, it's been measured (there are enough books about cost efficiency and production plannign etc for anyone interested) that cutting waste and preventing mistakes is more effective to the profit of the company than just raising prices in order to increase the sales margin. It would a) eventually address to all the customer complaints and make repetitive issues disappear b) increase their efficiency in a coherent way instead of trying to go by feel. What a derp CEO for not getting into that, that's my 2 cents.



Obviously we don't have the visibility to if they've done something like this before, but I wonder if they've ever utilized outside consultants? Ok, so I actually giggled a little and shook my head as I finished that sentence because I don't see that as something Jeff would likely be into...

However, with that said, my last 3 employers (counting my current one) all hired the exact same research/consulting firm to take a look at their entire operation from the ground up. And honestly, no bull shit, they knew their shit. They delved head-first into every nook and cranny of the organizations, and at the end of their review period, they submitted a comprehensive list of everything they would recommend, how to implement the changes, and what effects those changes would have. And I shit you not, after seeing these lists that these companies produced, even from my low-on-the-totem-pole position, every recommendation made absolute sense, the companies implemented many of them, and in the end were better companies for it.

They don't have a way to track order status, it seems at best they only have a list of orders that haven't shipped by their initial ESD, but not much more than that, their online ordering system is not only hopelessly out-dated but they are letting it slowly rot away by not fixing many old and new issues, their entire option code system is a mess, etc etc etc. If there was any company that I've ever seen that seems like they could genuinely improve leaps and bounds with some outside professional advice, it's Kiesel. And I can guarantee that in their research, they would likely come across these semi-viral customer service stories, and would address them.

In my mind, they need to do two things, immediately:
1. Immediate launch of the "Nordstrom-style" customer service mentality
2. Hire a research/consultant company like Solomon Coyle or similar, and act on their recommendations

Honestly, put those two things into action, and they'd be unstoppable.


----------



## spudmunkey

Is the Crescent example better than the PRS? No, I'm not crazy. But c'mon, use some common sense.

A) That Crescent photo is a shit-illy compressed photo of it anyway. Not saying this makes the Kiesel better, but that shitty image doesn't do it any favors: https://i.imgur.com/zp2im6H.jpg
B) That Kiesel would be considered a lower-grade figured wood by both manufacturers. I don't *think* I've seen a PRS in that finish, even used, for less than $7K (a few seem $8k, most are $12K+), and I would suspect that Kiesel, even at their craziest, wouldn't price theirs over $4.5k, even maxed out with, like, a koa body, their 7-piece neck with flamed maple, trem, piezo etc.
C) Those PRS photos are WAAAAAAAY post-processed, and flooded with studio photography lighting. This is a IRL photo:


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Is the Crescent example better than the PRS? No, I'm not crazy. But c'mon, use some common sense.
> 
> A) That Crescent photo is a shit-illy compressed photo of it anyway. Not saying this makes the Kiesel better, but that shitty image doesn't do it any favors: https://i.imgur.com/zp2im6H.jpg
> B) That Kiesel would be considered a lower-grade figured wood by both manufacturers. I don't *think* I've seen a PRS in that finish, even used, in that color for less than $7K (most seem $8k+), and I would suspect that Kiesel, even at their craziest, wouldn't price theirs over $4.5k, even maxed out with, like, a koa body, their 7-piece neck with flamed maple, trem, piezo etc.
> C) Those PRS photos are WAAAAAAAY post-processed, and flooded with studio photography lighting. This is a IRL photo:


Even in the unprocessed prs pic the finishes are completely different compared to the kiesel. The kiesel doesn't collect the purple in the low spots of the grain as well and is nowhere near as consistent. Also the prs uses teal/turquoise and the kiesel uses a darker blue for the high spots. The two do not compare.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> Even in the unprocessed prs pic the finishes are completely different compared to the kiesel. The kiesel doesn't collect the purple in the low spots of the grain as well and is nowhere near as consistent. Also the prs uses teal/turquoise and the kiesel uses a darker blue for the high spots. The two do not compare.



Doesnt take away from the fact they look alike.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> that post was never posted to the official kiesel group.
> that's the owners and fans group which is an open group to discuss kiesel.
> Kiesel has no part in it other then the fact that their sales people thugs sometimes post there.



Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> Nope. At least nothing anywhere near what I know the UK/EU have. That said, would that 14 day return "with no justification" apply to custom-made items? Mandating that that by law doesn't seem reasonable to me, if that's the case.


I think it would be iffy in Kiesels case. Custom made to order items are not subject to the same returns policy.

However, I see Kiesel has a number of "in stock" items that are Non returnable, since these aren't actually made to someones order then the return policy should apply (though I'm not a lawyer) given that it was spec'd with no customer at the time of building ergo it is not a "made to order" product.

But it does apply to custom made items that are faulty (warranties would also come in to play here). If it's faulty a customer can claim for a return/refund and depending on the specifics the seller should pay for the shipping.


Add to this that it generally improves transparency and respect in a brand/store/company to still offer a return/refund policy out with the usual standard EU law. Simple customer service to not only comply to the sales law but go the extra mile.


----------



## Flappydoodle

The UK law in question relates to distance selling - i.e. buying on the Internet when you haven't seen the actual product. And obviously the law would supersede whatever silly company policy they have. That said, most customers don't know the laws and the companies get away with being naughty and refusing refunds/repairs when they technically should.


----------



## cip 123

Flappydoodle said:


> The UK law in question relates to distance selling - i.e. buying on the Internet when you haven't seen the actual product. And obviously the law would supersede whatever silly company policy they have. That said, most customers don't know the laws and the companies get away with being naughty and refusing refunds/repairs when they technically should.


Which is why I was asking about US laws. Just wondering if there was anything similar it seems rather strange that there would be no law protecting online buyers in the US.

For example when Keisel ship out faulty products in the EU they would by law be forced to repair, replace, or refund. Within the bounds of what is custom etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

Not really. You could take them to small claims court, which does cost you money. If you win, you can ask for court costs, but if for some reason you lose, those costs are yours.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Leave the fucking poor fretboards alone!


----------



## feraledge

It's important to remember that all of this talk about legal options for botched orders is for an active company. Does anyone read this at this point and still think it sounds worth it?


----------



## Jonathan20022

MatiasTolkki said:


> i think I remember that story. weren't people talking about that on the kiesel forums?



I don't recall I had an account there from 2009 I think but I never really looked over there. As far as I knew, I kept my story private until I securely had my money back and then talked about it here and on a few facebook groups and that's it.

This stuff was talked about a few pages ago in regards to return policies, some of the nuances seem to be held within an individual state's standards.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jonathan20022 said:


> I don't recall I had an account there from 2009 I think but I never really looked over there. As far as I knew, I kept my story private until I securely had my money back and then talked about it here and on a few facebook groups and that's it.
> 
> This stuff was talked about a few pages ago in regards to return policies, some of the nuances seem to be held within an individual state's standards.



Maybe it was someone else who had a similar story because I remember someone talking about that on the forums before my entrance into the Kiesel Forum Gulags.


----------



## ImNotAhab

Semi-pro said:


> If they only committed to being a ISO 9001 certified company, it would address all their faults. It's such basic stuff, literally the _lowest_ threshold/demand in usual B2B, yet effective as f*** way of making sure your business is only going forward instead of repeating the same old mistakes all the time. Besides, it's been measured (there are enough books about cost efficiency and production plannign etc for anyone interested) that cutting waste and preventing mistakes is more effective to the profit of the company than just raising prices in order to increase the sales margin. It would a) eventually address to all the customer complaints and make repetitive issues disappear b) increase their efficiency in a coherent way instead of trying to go by feel. What a derp CEO for not getting into that, that's my 2 cents.



That would be interesting. I deal with ISO compliance for a living. It and most other quality management systems (they are all mostly very similar methodologies) are great as long as you are striving for improvement, consistency and your management are 100% committed.


----------



## cip 123

feraledge said:


> It's important to remember that all of this talk about legal options for botched orders is for an active company. Does anyone read this at this point and still think it sounds worth it?


I was just more interested in the US law regarding returns, seems crazy that they don't have anything.


----------



## -JeKo-

I've received a ton of private messages so... That fretboard post in the Facebook group was mine. As a result, I got banned and apparently so did a lot of people. I'm currently in talks with Kiesel to reach some sort of solution so unfortunately I'm not going to comment on this any further at this point.

I promise to give you an update once the dust has settled!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

-JeKo- said:


> I've received a ton of private messages so... That fretboard post in the Facebook group was mine. As a result, I got banned and apparently so did a lot of people. I'm currently in talks with Kiesel to reach some sort of solution so unfortunately I'm not going to comment on this any further at this point.
> 
> I promise to give you an update once the dust has settled!



Looks like "someone" is trying to silence a lot of people.


----------



## diagrammatiks

-JeKo- said:


> I've received a ton of private messages so... That fretboard post in the Facebook group was mine. As a result, I got banned and apparently so did a lot of people. I'm currently in talks with Kiesel to reach some sort of solution so unfortunately I'm not going to comment on this any further at this point.
> 
> I promise to give you an update once the dust has settled!



Makes no sense why you’d be banned. Were You being hilarious after your op? Waiting for updates.


----------



## kevdes93

This gave me a laugh. I didnt even bother replying to him


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Except that fool doesn't realize that Mark Kiesel was copying PRS in a LOT of ways before, like the CT models, and the change from Gibson scale (24.75) in the 80s to the 25 inch PRS scale in the 90s. What a loon.


----------



## prlgmnr

Why do people become so aligned with a brand that they say that sort of bollocks? Like, I'm delighted for you if you like your Kiesel(s), but for heavens sake.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

prlgmnr said:


> Why do people become so aligned with a brand that they say that sort of bollocks? Like, I'm delighted for you if you like your Kiesel(s), but for heavens sake.



That whole spiel that Jeff gives about being "family" I guess. Too many people have bought into it


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I like my kiesels but some of the things these ravenous fanboys say makes me facepalm.


----------



## ImNotAhab

KnightBrolaire said:


> I like my kiesels but some of the things these ravenous fanboys say makes me facepalm.



I agree.... Fanboyism is just another face of tribalism and tribalism is a socio-evolutionary default that is beginning to show its age. Feeling like you belong is great and really is a advantage that leads us to integrate and cooperate increasing our likelihood of survival. But using that mechanism in a modern context to spout utter nonsense, kiss peoples backside and attack people who are on another side in a supposed rivalry is 1 or 2 microns above us as a species picking our favourite tree and flinging our feces at the denizens of neighboring trees.

Encountering examples of extreme toxic fanboyism like sports teams supporters, PC vs Mac or more us vs everyone examples like radical politics or "movements" really highlight to me that when we do eventually kill each other off and dolphins inherit the mantel of apex species that they will do a better job than us.


----------



## nyxzz

constantly amazed at what this thread has turned into lol


----------



## Ebony

ImNotAhab said:


> Encountering examples of extreme toxic fanboyism like sports teams supporters, PC vs Mac or more us vs everyone examples like radical politics or "movements" really highlight to me that when we do eventually kill each other off and dolphins inherit the mantel of apex species that they will do a better job than us.



The dolphins would kill themselves off over Crab vs Octopus and Atlantic vs Pacific.


----------



## spudmunkey

I am loathe to do this (quoting myself just because it got immediately "new-paged"), but thought it was relevant enough to repost. For those who are upset, thinking Kiesel is over-reaching by having posts deleted or people banned on what appears to be a public page "by the fans":



spudmunkey said:


> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I am loathe to do this (quoting myself just because it got immediately "new-paged"), but thought it was relevant enough to repost. For those who are upset, thinking Kiesel is over-reaching by having posts deleted or people banned on what appears to be a public page "by the fans":



yeah, ban people for showing how they legit screwed up that fretboard and haven't remedied the situation. That's called a "cover-up"


----------



## spudmunkey

On a branch of their own marketing? That's ridiculous. Customer-focused and 100% transparent? No. But what movie poster includes negative reviews (unless they are doing it as a joke)? If someone is standing inside your store handing out pictures of something you fucked up, wouldn't you kick them out?


----------



## Shask

spudmunkey said:


> On a branch of their own marketing? That's ridiculous. Customer-focused and 100% transparent? No. But what movie poster includes negative reviews (unless they are doing it as a joke)? If someone is standing inside your store handing out pictures of something you fucked up, wouldn't you kick them out?



That is a public Kiesel fan page/group. It is NOT the official Kiesel Facebook page.... Therefore not ran by Kiesel directly, nor not owned by Kiesel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> On a branch of their own marketing? That's ridiculous. Customer-focused and 100% transparent? No. But what movie poster includes negative reviews (unless they are doing it as a joke)? If someone is standing inside your store handing out pictures of something you fucked up, wouldn't you kick them out?



Wouldn't it be more prudent to turn the negative around?

I think you're missing the point completely, or you get it and just want to play semantics. 
No one is saying that Jeff can't bury the negative posts. He certainly can. We're all just pointing out how shitty that is.


----------



## spudmunkey

Oh, make no mistake...I'm not saying it's not crappy, or that there's better ways of going about it...like fixing the issue. But shouting that they are deleting negative posts and banning people posting negative things about them (even if true) isn't as unbelievable and underhanded as people make it seem.


----------



## spudmunkey

Shask said:


> That is a public Kiesel fan page/group. It is NOT the official Kiesel Facebook page.... Therefore not ran by Kiesel directly, nor not owned by Kiesel.



Please see my post before the one you replied to. "Group by Kiesel Guitars".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, make no mistake...I'm not saying it's not crappy, or that there's better ways of going about it...like fixing the issue. But shouting that they are deleting negative posts and banning people posting negative things about them (even if true) isn't as unbelievable and underhanded as people make it seem.



It's very believable, but it is underhanded. 

Burying the truth is by definition "underhanded".

I guess you could frame the argument as not being uncommon, as there are other builders who engage in this kind of stuff, but that certainly doesn't make it better or right any way you cut it.

Though, I don't really see folks saying that they don't believe this is happening, quite the contrary.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, make no mistake...I'm not saying it's not crappy, or that there's better ways of going about it...like fixing the issue. But shouting that they are deleting negative posts and banning people posting negative things about them (even if true) isn't as unbelievable and underhanded as people make it seem.



It's not unbelievable, it IS underhanded. If you, as a company, aren't fixing serious issues and people post about it on a public forum because you have no other means to get the attention you need, deleting it is COMPLETELY underhanded.


----------



## spudmunkey

Fair. I'm just not finding the right words in my mental thesaurus, I think.

Basically, nobody should be surprised that ANY company would remove negative review of their own products from their own marketing. Wendy's isn't going to leave up a post on their wall that the chili gave them the shits.

Am I saying Wendy's shouldn't fix the chili? Of course now. But being mad at them for _removing_ the post is a silly thing to complain about, when the complaint should be about the issue being posted about. Again, which I'm not saying nobody is...clearly they are...but to keep posting about it on what is effectively their own website, is idiotic. This is that sso.org, hc, reddit, etc are for.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Fair. I'm just not finding the right words in my mental thesaurus, I think.
> 
> Basically, nobody should be surprised that ANY company would remove negative review of their own products from their own marketing. Wendy's isn't going to leave up a post on their wall that the chili gave them the shits.
> 
> Am I saying Wendy's shouldn't fix the chili? Of course now. But being mad at them for _removing_ the post is a silly thing to complain about, when the complaint should be about the issue being posted about. Again, which I'm not saying nobody is...clearly they are...but to keep posting about it on what is effectively their own website, is idiotic. This is that sso.org, hc, reddit, etc are for.



Most companies don't give a shit what you post on thier social media as long as it's not racist, sexist, abusive, etc. 

The ones who really care and go to great lengths to bury the bullshit are typically small businesses run by dicks. Case in point every other scumbag scam artist builder we've had to excise from here. I've made the comparison before and I'll make it again: Kiesel has joined the ranks of BRJ in that they've tried to use thier influence to scrub reports of bad guitars and customer service from sites not thier own. 

Doing underhanded stuff like this, while legal and in a way understandable from certain standpoints, is still shitty and _should be called out_.

Besides, how can we discuss the actual problem when it's being hidden? 

I think you're plenty well spoken and I understand what you're saying.  

I just think it doesn't make any sense unless the goal is to deflect some of the crap Kiesel is getting from doing unethical crap.


----------



## Shask

spudmunkey said:


> Please see my post before the one you replied to. "Group by Kiesel Guitars".



The original cracked fretboard post was on the public Facebook page I mentioned. I saw it before it was deleted.


----------



## QuantumCybin

In response to Jeff’s whole “family” deal, I made this shitty resident evil gif






Welcome to the family, son


----------



## Seabeast2000

There is much hiding of respect and knocking in this thread.


----------



## wannabguitarist

^which shitshow is that from?


----------



## narad

The906 said:


> View attachment 59553


----------



## Seabeast2000

wannabguitarist said:


> ^which shitshow is that from?



Snipped it from that Arnold Kiesel video mentioned somewhere around here.


----------



## Cynicanal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Most companies don't give a shit what you post on thier social media as long as it's not racist, sexist, abusive, etc.
> 
> The ones who really care and go to great lengths to bury the bullshit are typically small businesses run by dicks. Case in point every other scumbag scam artist builder we've had to excise from here. I've made the comparison before and I'll make it again: Kiesel has joined the ranks of BRJ in that they've tried to use thier influence to scrub reports of bad guitars and customer service from sites not thier own.


I know "typically" gives you some wiggle room here, but Mesa aren't exactly a fly-by-night company, and they're notorious for purging negative comments from their social media sites and forcing YouTubers to take down negative reviews (they did a whole lot of that in the aftermath of the Cab Clone fiasco).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> I know "typically" gives you some wiggle room here, but Mesa aren't exactly a fly-by-night company, and they're notorious for purging negative comments from their social media sites and forcing YouTubers to take down negative reviews (they did a whole lot of that in the aftermath of the Cab Clone fiasco).



And as someone who digs Mesa amps, and has owned several, I think it's bullshit that they do that.

Obviously even good companies can get uptight on the internet. I'd even say that Kiesel isn't a bad company at all, they're just doing some dumb shit that I'm going to call them on and bring attention to until they stop. Think of it as tough love.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Cynicanal said:


> I know "typically" gives you some wiggle room here, but Mesa aren't exactly a fly-by-night company, and they're notorious for purging negative comments from their social media sites and forcing YouTubers to take down negative reviews (they did a whole lot of that in the aftermath of the Cab Clone fiasco).



mesa's not really the greatest example of what you should be doing though. randalls done tons of questionable and wtf stuff before.
the difference is that they for the most part run a tight ship and put out products that are tested and mostly good.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> And as someone who digs Mesa amps, and has owned several, I think it's bullshit that they do that.
> 
> Obviously even good companies can get uptight on the internet. I'd even say that Kiesel isn't a bad company at all, they're just doing some dumb shit that I'm going to call them on and bring attention to until they stop. Think of it as tough love.



i agree completely. They take even constructive criticism as trollish BS, and that airhead at the top doesn't want his poor ego hurt.


----------



## Snarpaasi

Just saying if you want to get respect, you'll get the least of it by saying "Show some respect" 

Dafuq?

Picked up today my 2010 DC127 from a luthier that filed fret ends exceptionally well, changed nut and widened TOM recess for ABM brass bridge. Damn it plays well!


----------



## bostjan

I think that 90% of the problem here is that Jeff Kiesel treats his customers like he's their trailer park stepdad. If you just bring him a couple of cold PBRs, don't mess with the remote, and don't expect anything too much of him, he treats you pretty well, but as soon as you expect anything requiring effort from him, all he does is berate you for not "showing [him] some respect," then kicks you out of the family.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Well I do have one minor complaint about the QC there, and that's the shoddy input jacks they use. I had to replace my JB200's with a switchcraft last year because it had a crappy connection. Works WAY better now.


----------



## spudmunkey

Shask said:


> The original cracked fretboard post was on the public Facebook page I mentioned. I saw it before it was deleted.



I'm completely unaware, then of the public facebook page. I saw it posted on the group I posted (which is different than the Kiesel page), and there were a couple hundred replies, so I assumed that was the one you meant since it was deleted and people were banned there.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

So it seems that Jeff in his infinite wisdom somehow told the webpage guys to put multiscale Holdsworth and Berylliums on the builder, but forced a KieselBBS regular to wait TWO MONTHS to be told that it isn't happening.


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> So it seems that Jeff in his infinite wisdom somehow told the webpage guys to put multiscale Holdsworth and Berylliums on the builder, but forced a KieselBBS regular to wait TWO MONTHS to be told that it isn't happening.


Do you just stalk Kiesel's site and social medias all day just to look and point out every mistake? I get that Kiesel has it's flaws, but my god dude, you by far have the most posts on this thread and you aren't even the original poster... You really need to let it go and enjoy your Ibanez's


----------



## Cynicanal

In fairness, letting someone order a pickup set that you have no intention of making and then just taking their money for 2 months until they ask to call you where the pickups are is really crappy.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Albake21 said:


> Do you just stalk Kiesel's site and social medias all day just to look and point out every mistake? I get that Kiesel has it's flaws, but my god dude, you by far have the most posts on this thread and you aren't even the original poster... You really need to let it go and enjoy your Ibanez's



The messenger isn’t the message. Just pretend I shared it:

Hello fellow retards. Being a longtime parishioner of the former CarvinBBS, it may interest those of you who frequent this particular thread to know that an unhappy customer recently published an accounting of how he was informed, following a two month wait since the initial order deposit, that his multiscale Holdsworth with multiscale Beryllium pickups was never going to offered in a production capacity. One wonders why they were listed as options in the online order form in the first place. Kiesel, you foible-biscuit - _you’ve done it again!_


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Do you just stalk Kiesel's site and social medias all day just to look and point out every mistake? I get that Kiesel has it's flaws, but my god dude, you by far have the most posts on this thread and you aren't even the original poster... You really need to let it go and enjoy your Ibanez's



I don't see why you're taking things in here so personally. 

No one is judging you for buying a Kiesel, or loving it. We're not all sitting here going "Jeez, look at that Albake21 dude. He owns a Kiesel he likes. Gross."

No one cares. At all. 

If you don't care about legitimate issues, and it bothers you when people bring them up, ignore the thread. 

Do you think you owe Kiesel the defense for some reason? 

Does Matias rag on Kiesel hard? Yeah. But he has every right to do so. His experience wasn't as rosey as your own. He's not putting you down though. 

I get it. We take a lot of pride in what we buy, but don't take it so seriously. Especially on the internet.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't see why you're taking things in here so personally.
> 
> No one is judging you for buying a Kiesel, or loving it. We're not all sitting here going "Jeez, look at that Albake21 dude. He owns a Kiesel he likes. Gross."
> 
> No one cares. At all.
> 
> If you don't care about legitimate issues, and it bothers you when people bring them up, ignore the thread.
> 
> Do you think you owe Kiesel the defense for some reason?
> 
> Does Matias rag on Kiesel hard? Yeah. But he has every right to do so. His experience wasn't as rosey as your own. He's not putting you down though.
> 
> I get it. We take a lot of pride in what we buy, but don't take it so seriously. Especially on the internet.


The point of this thread (at least what it turned into) was for others to share their bad Kiesel customer experience with SSO. Matias has shared his story with us. There's a difference between talking about bad experiences with Kiesel and just making it an all out witch hunt. I'm here, and like most, to talk about everyone's own experience with Kiesel. It's hard to do this when Matias just shits on literally everything Kiesel.

I'm not a Kiesel fanboy by any means, I've only ever owned two (only one being my own custom) so I'm not trying to defend them by any means. It just gets annoying after while seeing the same Ibanez fanboy just absolutely tearing into someones company over and over and over again. It gets old... just my two cents.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> The point of this thread (at least what it turned into) was for others to share their bad Kiesel customer experience with SSO. Matias has shared his story with us. There's a difference between talking about bad experiences with Kiesel and just making it an all out witch hunt. I'm here, and like most, to talk about everyone's own experience with Kiesel. It's hard to do this when Matias just shits on literally everything Kiesel.
> 
> I'm not a Kiesel fanboy by any means, I've only ever owned two (only one being my own custom) so I'm not trying to defend them by any means. It just gets annoying after while seeing the same Ibanez fanboy just absolutely tearing into someones company over and over and over again. It gets old... just my two cents.



So ignore him. Problem solved. 

Though, to be fair, the post you most recently quoted seems to fit in this thread just fine, don't you think?


----------



## ElRay

bostjan said:


> ... Jeff Kiesel treats his customers like he's their trailer park stepdad. ...


 /thread


----------



## ElRay

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't see why you're taking things in here so personally. ... I get it. We take a lot of pride in what we buy, but don't take it so seriously. Especially on the internet.


That's 99.999999% of it -- a variation of "cork sniffery". If somebody is bad-mouthing something, a lot of folks that own that same something, feel the specific item they own is somehow reduced in value, or they feel like they made a mistake.


----------



## Albake21

ElRay said:


> That's 99.999999% of it -- a variation of "cork sniffery". If somebody is bad-mouthing something, a lot of folks that own that same something, feel the specific item they own is somehow reduced in value, or they feel like they made a mistake.


Yeah.... I guess I'm part of that .000000001% then because I have a lot of bad shit to say about Kiesel and that's why I'm subbed to this thread. It's also the reason why I didn't end up ordering a custom from them a month ago. I'm here to discuss like civil human beings, not witch hunt Jeff.


----------



## chipchappy

Albake21 said:


> not witch hunt Jeff.



Not really a witch hunt if the dude just does a lot of mean/dishonest stuff, is it?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Do you just stalk Kiesel's site and social medias all day just to look and point out every mistake? I get that Kiesel has it's flaws, but my god dude, you by far have the most posts on this thread and you aren't even the original poster... You really need to let it go and enjoy your Ibanez's



ummm, no I don't. i just stopped by there to read what's going on, saw the beryllium pup thread and wanted to see what people were saying about them. Turns out I found more bs and thought I'd share, That's all.


----------



## ArtDecade

Albake21 said:


> I'm here to discuss like civil human beings, not *witch hunt* Jeff.



Jeff turned me into a newt. 
I got better.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

ArtDecade said:


> Jeff turned me into a newt.
> I got better.



So...what you’re saying is..._If he weighs the same as a duck...then he’s made of wood?
_
It _would_ explain some things.


----------



## Seabeast2000

ArtDecade said:


> Jeff turned me into a newt.
> I got better.


I stroke my extended goatee in interest.


----------



## Seventhwave

It'd be one thing if Jeff was just a swell guy and all the blasting of him simply stemmed from customers that were upset about something that went wrong with their build. Nearly all of it seems to stem from the customer service (lack thereof) his company provides when there is an issue.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Seventhwave said:


> It'd be one thing if Jeff was just a swell guy and all the blasting of him simply stemmed from customers that were upset about something that went wrong with their build. Nearly all of it seems to stem from the customer service (lack thereof) his company provides when there is an issue.



Yeah I'd be the outlier in that I hate the decisions to completely take away great pickups to sign deals with duncan and Fishman. Fishmans are geared toward a VERY specific audience and I am completely against using them personally. It's why I've gone back to Dimarzio for everything.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hey look at this, "Mid-year price increase."



Didn't this punk just increase prices a couple months ago? He's really trying to push everything WAY too high


----------



## cwhitey2

MatiasTolkki said:


> Hey look at this, "Mid-year price increase."
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't this punk just increase prices a couple months ago? He's really trying to push everything WAY too high



I had to stop watching the video. He's such a POS.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cwhitey2 said:


> I had to stop watching the video. He's such a POS.



I know man, I had to stop too. There was something else I was looking for in the livestream about them not making any more artist signature models anymore but after I heard "mid-year price increases," I stopped and felt so much better that I went back to Ibanez.


----------



## beerandbeards

Big Pappa Sterling Ball also announced a price increase recently as well. Something about California I guess


----------



## cwhitey2

MatiasTolkki said:


> I know man, I had to stop too. There was something else I was looking for in the livestream about them not making any more artist signature models anymore but after I heard "mid-year price increases," I stopped and felt so much better that I went back to Ibanez.


I just love his explanation on the raw finish and how it effects the tone


----------



## MatiasTolkki

beerandbeards said:


> Big Pappa Sterling Ball also announced a price increase recently as well. Something about California I guess



Well I can go into why, but that would be way off topic and it might make you sick to know how bad california is


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cwhitey2 said:


> I just love his explanation on the raw finish and how it effects the tone



IKR. My BASSWOOD RG5000 resonates just as well as his shitty guitars, and I only paid 40,000 yen for that... Solid color, original wizard neck, all things he says that sap tone away from the guitar... He's a trash salesman


----------



## nyxzz

It's expensive to do business in CA for many reasons, you can expect probably anyone who makes guitars there to bump prices up in the near future


----------



## Seventhwave

Watched a good chunk of that video... holy crap!


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Is that the same video where he says Johnny Hiland’s signature model he signed on for may not happen because “the age of a specific signature-model for guitarists, in general, are over”?


----------



## Seabeast2000

The Drywall Diaries, by Jeff


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Is that the same video where he says Johnny Hiland’s signature model he signed on for may not happen because “the age of a specific signature-model for guitarists, in general, are over”?



yep, That's the one


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Seventhwave said:


> Watched a good chunk of that video... holy crap!



all of it, or just most of it? lol


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Is that the same video where he says Johnny Hiland’s signature model he signed on for may not happen because “the age of a specific signature-model for guitarists, in general, are over”?



I think Jeff is a little out of his league working with Hiland, who has been at the endorsement game for decades.


----------



## pondman

MatiasTolkki said:


> Hey look at this, "Mid-year price increase."
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't this punk just increase prices a couple months ago? He's really trying to push everything WAY too high




Good god , Totally unwatchable ! I can see his mouth moving but hear absolutely nothing.
Its like the Kiesel Puppet Show. Or is that Muppet ?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

pondman said:


> Good god , Totally unwatchable ! I can see his mouth moving but hear absolutely nothing.
> Its like the Kiesel Puppet Show. Or is that Muppet ?



hey don't insult the Muppets like that.


----------



## ElRay

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> So...what you’re saying is..._If he weighs the same as a duck...then he’s made of wood?
> _
> It _would_ explain some things.


Come on. Stay on topic. If the GUITAR weighs the same as a duck, it's made of wood.


----------



## ElRay

Albake21 said:


> Yeah.... I guess I'm part of that .000000001% then ...


Nah, you seem to be in a different percentage that just takes things personally that shouldn't be. :wink:


----------



## technomancer

"I know we just increased prices in January... and I keep telling you how high sales are and how we are completely crushing it... but we're going to have to raise prices again. The company race cars don't pay for themselves."

Also I REALLY can't sit through one of Jeff's videos but is he saying they are discontinuing sig models or that they aren't doing any new ones?


----------



## Albake21

technomancer said:


> "I know we just increased prices in January... and I keep telling you how high sales are and how we are completely crushing it... but we're going to have to raise prices again. The company race cars don't pay for themselves."


Yeah I'm listening to the video right now, definitely pissed me off quite a bit. The last increase didn't bother me all that much considering it true that it was only a $10 increase, but this "mid year" increase is definitely going to piss me off. I'm working on a Kiesel build right now with Mike Jones, sadly I have to go with Kiesel with my budget so I'm glad I'm getting it in before this BS.

Hell I changed my picture because of how ashamed I am of this company.


----------



## technomancer

Albake21 said:


> Yeah I'm listening to the video right now, definitely pissed me off quite a bit. The last increase didn't bother me all that much considering it true that it was only a $10 increase, but this "mid year" increase is definitely going to piss me off. I'm working on a Kiesel build right now with Mike Jones, sadly I have to go with Kiesel with my budget so I'm glad I'm getting it in before this BS.
> 
> Hell I changed my picture because of how ashamed I am of this company.



Jeff is trying to slowly get Kiesel into the price bracket of Suhr and PRS... it's been really obvious that is his intent over the last 3 years or so. The problem is I've owned quite a few of all 3 and the quality is just not on par in my experience, and that is from playing them side by side. 

That is not to say PRS and Suhr pricing hasn't become batshit crazy over the last several years, because it has really gone nuts, but I have way more confidence that if I spend the money site unseen I will get a killer guitar from either of them and that they will take care of it if issues arise.


----------



## Albake21

technomancer said:


> Jeff is trying to slowly get Kiesel into the price bracket of Suhr and PRS... it's been really obvious that is his intent over the last 3 years or so. The problem is I've owned quite a few of all 3 and the quality is just not on par in my experience, and that is from playing them side by side.
> 
> That is not to say PRS and Suhr pricing hasn't become batshit crazy over the last several years, because it has really gone nuts, but I have way more confidence that if I spend the money site unseen I will get a killer guitar from either of them and that they will take care of it if issues arise.


Totally agree. I do enjoy Kiesel guitars, but there is a reason they are the price they are (as long as you don't do any crazy finishes). They just do not compete with the higher custom shops. My Blackat runs circles around my Kiesel.


----------



## jephjacques

technomancer said:


> Jeff is trying to slowly get Kiesel into the price bracket of Suhr and PRS... it's been really obvious that is his intent over the last 3 years or so. The problem is I've owned quite a few of all 3 and the quality is just not on par in my experience, and that is from playing them side by side.
> 
> That is not to say PRS and Suhr pricing hasn't become batshit crazy over the last several years, because it has really gone nuts, but I have way more confidence that if I spend the money site unseen I will get a killer guitar from either of them and that they will take care of it if issues arise.



I'm old enough to remember when a custom 24 cost $1600 :cry:


----------



## feraledge

I couldn’t stomach more than a couple minutes of that shit. But he really opened a video about price increases by pretending like the customers dragged him away from all the fun they’re having to sit him down finally and do a live video? Cool bro. So cool.


----------



## spudmunkey

I feel like if you have to do two price increases in one yer, there's something wrong with your business planning/forecasting. I work with made-on-demand semi-custom furniture from all over the world, and they usually don't do price changes any more than once a year, sometimes skipping years, and they also have to worry about material and labor costs, outside components suppliers, and especially in the case of international, ever-changing freight charges.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> I feel like if you have to do two price increases in one yer, there's something wrong with your business planning/forecasting. I work with made-on-demand semi-custom furniture from all over the world, and they usually don't to price changes any more than once a year, sometimes skipping years, and they also have to worry about outside components suppliers, and especially in the case of international, ever-changing freight charges.


Totally agree, there is definitely something wrong with how you run the business or your workflow.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Conversely, if you can get away with two price increases in a year, and the people keep buying...


----------



## Seabeast2000

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Conversely, if you can get away with two price increases in a year, and the people keep buying...


Agreed. The price can totally be whatever the market will bear.


----------



## nyxzz

jephjacques said:


> I'm old enough to remember when a custom 24 cost $1600 :cry:


holy shit


----------



## KnightBrolaire

jesus some of those price increases are even more absurd now. Definitely not giving kiesel anymore of my money. 
Guess I'm just going to have to scour for a used zeus or solo that I like and have it sent to marty bell to become sparkly.


----------



## LordCashew

jephjacques said:


> I'm old enough to remember when a custom 24 cost $1600 :cry:



I remember playing a red CU24 with a rosewood neck at a local store. Brand new, it was priced around $2300 IIRC. 

I was seriously considering buying it, but a sales guy came in and basically told me I couldn't play it. I was only around 18 at the time, so I guess he didn't take me seriously. Went home pissed and ended up ordering a Carvin CT6 instead. 

In all honesty, I actually preferred the neck profile and frets on the Carvin at the time. It was a truly good guitar. But now I mostly play PRS and I _really _wish I would have sucked it up and gone back for that CU24, even if the sales guy was an asshat.


----------



## feraledge

spudmunkey said:


> I feel like if you have to do two price increases in one yer, there's something wrong with your business planning/forecasting. I work with made-on-demand semi-custom furniture from all over the world, and they usually don't do price changes any more than once a year, sometimes skipping years, and they also have to worry about material and labor costs, outside components suppliers, and especially in the case of international, ever-changing freight charges.


Shit happens. I’m a publisher and my printer had two price increases due to increased paper costs in the last 4-5 months. Like 10%. A few years back the beef drought caused the grass-fed beef company I worked for to have three significant price increases throughout summer and fall. It sucks, but it can happen to any legitimate business. 

However, if it was a supply issue, every Cali guitar builder would be doing the same. Jeff is just a douche bag.


----------



## JSanta

feraledge said:


> Shit happens. I’m a publisher and my printer had two price increases due to increased paper costs in the last 4-5 months. Like 10%. A few years back the beef drought caused the grass-fed beef company I worked for to have three significant price increases throughout summer and fall. It sucks, but it can happen to any legitimate business.
> 
> However, if it was a supply issue, every Cali guitar builder would be doing the same. Jeff is just a douche bag.



Even if it were a supply issue, I highly doubt a company like Fender or Music Man would consider doing this. If a company is forecasting and hedging appropriately, they've already planned price and supply well in advance. Short of a catastrophic event, an unscheduled price increase is unacceptable.


----------



## feraledge

JSanta said:


> Short of a catastrophic event, an unscheduled price increase is unacceptable.


Are we really going through life thinking that Jeff needing a new race car or whatever _isn't_ a catastrophic event?


----------



## cwhitey2

feraledge said:


> Shit happens. I’m a publisher and my printer had two price increases due to increased paper costs in the last 4-5 months. Like 10%. A few years back the beef drought caused the grass-fed beef company I worked for to have three significant price increases throughout summer and fall. It sucks, but it can happen to any legitimate business.
> 
> However, if it was a supply issue, every Cali guitar builder would be doing the same. Jeff is just a douche bag.



Yeah the paper mills are backed up do to a few closing. I think there are 3 left in America. They are months behind and the price will continue to go up.


----------



## jephjacques

LordIronSpatula said:


> I remember playing a red CU24 with a rosewood neck at a local store. Brand new, it was priced around $2300 IIRC.
> 
> I was seriously considering buying it, but a sales guy came in and basically told me I couldn't play it. I was only around 18 at the time, so I guess he didn't take me seriously. Went home pissed and ended up ordering a Carvin CT6 instead.
> 
> In all honesty, I actually preferred the neck profile and frets on the Carvin at the time. It was a truly good guitar. But now I mostly play PRS and I _really _wish I would have sucked it up and gone back for that CU24, even if the sales guy was an asshat.



yeah like $2300 was a lot more money back in the 90s but I'm pretty sure it's still less than $4300 in today's dollars :\


----------



## JEngelking

jephjacques said:


> I'm old enough to remember when a custom 24 cost $1600 :cry:


----------



## Exit Existence

Oh my god, Jeff is such an Ass. Even though I love the product, those live streams make me cringe.

I can't believe how they snicker and laugh at their customers, "If you bug us about the build times, we will intentionally delay your build even longer". I also love how he always pushes Raw Tone Finish as the "Best" (Which correct me if I'm wrong is one of the cheaper to manufacturer finishes since it skips primer / sealer? ) but then goes ahead and says "Yea but no returns on raw tone guitars" XD


----------



## jephjacques




----------



## JEngelking

10/10 edit.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Exit Existence said:


> Oh my god, Jeff is such an Ass. Even though I love the product, those live streams make me cringe.
> 
> I can't believe how they snicker and laugh at their customers, "If you bug us about the build times, we will intentionally delay your build even longer". I also love how he always pushes Raw Tone Finish as the "Best" (Which correct me if I'm wrong is one of the cheaper to manufacturer finishes since it skips primer / sealer? ) but then goes ahead and says "Yea but no returns on raw tone guitars" XD


Is anyone convinced Jeff isn't mentally defective? Because I'm not.


----------



## spudmunkey

Exit Existence said:


> I also love how he always pushes Raw Tone Finish as the "Best" (Which correct me if I'm wrong is one of the cheaper to manufacturer finishes since it skips primer / sealer? ) but then goes ahead and says "Yea but no returns on raw tone guitars" XD



There's no returns, because it wears quickly/easily. It's also worth noting that it a no-up-charge option.

To be clear, if he said it's "best", he always says it's "best" for a certain scenario: the people who complain that a "thick" finish "kills" the tone of the wood that some people specifically select because of it's tone. Other than that, it's for people who want the look/feel of a visible grain finish, but want a color or paint so they can't get tung oil.

I've asked this question here before about other options, but they brought it out because people want it, and shitloads of people order it...if the alternative is that they just stopped offering it outright, is that somehow a better scenario for you? And if so, what difference should that matter to you if it's for someone who DOES want it? It's like getting mad that a car company offers high-performance tires as an option on a car model you like. They wear quicker and in that case even likely costs more, but if you want the regular road tires, and can still get them, why get offended over the stiffer, grippier tires that other people buy?

It literally says "Non-Returnable" on their online pricer, and they tell you that's the case when you call, in addition to mentioning it on many of their videos. If they are trying to be "sneaky" or scam anyone by springing it on them, they are doing a really shitty job of it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Totally agree. I do enjoy Kiesel guitars, but there is a reason they are the price they are (as long as you don't do any crazy finishes). They just do not compete with the higher custom shops. My Blackat runs circles around my Kiesel.



The crazy thing is, I've got 3 Ibanezes that stand up to my carvin and Kiesel; mass produced MIJ guitars. When THAT is happening, your entire business model is on the way to ruin.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> There's no returns, because it wears quickly/easily. It's also worth noting that it a no-up-charge option.
> 
> To be clear, if he said it's "best", he always says it's "best" for a certain scenario: the people who complain that a "thick" finish "kills" the tone of the wood that some people specifically select because of it's tone. Other than that, it's for people who want the look/feel of a visible grain finish, but want a color or paint so they can't get tung oil.
> 
> I've asked this question here before about other options, but they brought it out because people want it, and shitloads of people order it...if the alternative is that they just stopped offering it outright, is that somehow a better scenario for you? And if so, what difference should that matter to you if it's for someone who DOES want it? It's like getting mad that a car company offers high-performance tires as an option on a car model you like. They wear quicker and in that case even likely costs more, but if you want the regular road tires, and can still get them, why get offended over the stiffer, grippier tires that other people buy?
> 
> It literally says "Non-Returnable" on their online pricer, and they tell you that's the case when you call, in addition to mentioning it on many of their videos. If they are trying to be "sneaky" or scam anyone by springing it on them, they are doing a really shitty job of it.



People who whine about "tone" as much as Jeff does are trying to push that narrative to the limit to see how much coin they can steal from people. I was playing my RG550RF last night, I paid 107,000 yen for it, the thing resonates just as much as my JB200. Production line, MIJ guitar, with a SOLID color, extra thin neck (Ibanez Super Wizard) and basswood body. Now if I'm not mistaken, Jeffy boy says that ALL of those things suck the tone out of a guitar, guess that mofo is wrong again.


----------



## Cheap

he keeps proving over and over how he's not actually one of the big boys out there right now. 

he mentions why he's only painting necks to look like roasted wood instead of actually baking them due to how much the wood cracks and how hard to work with it can be. 

i bet once he learns how to half ass his way through working with it there will be an option on the builder for an astronomically-priced-non-returnable roast and he'll talk about how superior he is compared to other builders out there while customers are getting the shaft for dodgy craftsmanship on yet another feature.

wow that was saltier than i expected it to be..


----------



## feraledge

Cheap said:


> he mentions why he's only painting necks to look like roasted wood instead of actually baking them due to how much the wood cracks and how hard to work with it can be.
> 
> i bet once he learns how to half ass his way through working with it there will be an option on the builder for an astronomically-priced-non-returnable roast and he'll talk about how superior he is compared to other builders out there while customers are getting the shaft for dodgy craftsmanship on yet another feature.


Wow and yes. What are we giving it these days, about six month turn around from "it can't be done" to "I INVENTED IT"?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cheap said:


> he keeps proving over and over how he's not actually one of the big boys out there right now.
> 
> he mentions why he's only painting necks to look like roasted wood instead of actually baking them due to how much the wood cracks and how hard to work with it can be.
> 
> i bet once he learns how to half ass his way through working with it there will be an option on the builder for an astronomically-priced-non-returnable roast and he'll talk about how superior he is compared to other builders out there while customers are getting the shaft for dodgy craftsmanship on yet another feature.
> 
> wow that was saltier than i expected it to be..



The more salt the better, you should check around page 60 or something when i first arrived on SS 

Funny thing is about the roasted necks though, Ibanez is doing them now in INDONESIA. If Ibanez can get those inconsistent workers to manage to do it, Jeff is basically admitting he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.


----------



## Mathemagician

MatiasTolkki said:


> The more salt the better, you should check around page 60 or something when i first arrived on SS
> 
> Funny thing is about the roasted necks though, Ibanez is doing them now in INDONESIA. If Ibanez can get those inconsistent workers to manage to do it, Jeff is basically admitting he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.



Ernie Ball is doing them on guitars at the 7-800 price point.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Mathemagician said:


> Ernie Ball is doing them on guitars at the 7-800 price point.



Aren't Ernie ball's lower lines made in Indonesia or Korea?


----------



## Albake21

MatiasTolkki said:


> Aren't Ernie ball's lower lines made in Indonesia or Korea?


The Sterling by Music Man's are made in Indonesia.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> The Sterling by Music Man's are made in Indonesia.



That's what I thought. Those roasted neck models would be in the sterling line, right? I am WAY out of the loop on prices for ernie ball stuff, especially since the only ones you see around japan are the Petrucci models...


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah is sterling. And that line is WAY better than t has any right to be. The bridge isn’t a stainless MM. But the rest of the guitar is dooooooope.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I managed to sit through over an hour of that bullshit video. He's jacking up prices on everything but especially on features that already had significant upcharges. A "master grade birdseye maple board" would cost like 200$ extra. 
I laughed when he was complaining about baked maple. If ebmm can do it for cheap (same with harley benton) then there's no reason kiesel can't find a supplier to do it. Also, most of the treated boards look like shit (and I say that as someone that loves dyed/colored woods on guitars). 

A couple of months ago I was seeing maybe one or two in-stocks going for more than 3K. right now there's about 18 in-stocks going for 3K+.


----------



## diagrammatiks

there seems to be some industry wide thing going on right now.
suhr just increased their prices by 10-15 percent.


----------



## ramses

diagrammatiks said:


> there seems to be some industry wide thing going on right now.
> suhr just increased their prices by 10-15 percent.



Not surprising. Minimum wage and taxes going up all over CA.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

ramses said:


> Not surprising. Minimum wage and taxes going up all over CA.


Good. When lack of sales = "Dude, where's my job?" I hope they enjoy it. Idiots in Washington whom haven't the slightest clue how shit works, wanting to be the Cali Jr that certain places in Washington aspire to be, said, "Let's join them!" and are jacking up minimum wage over the next few years. I wonder how the burger jockeys will feel when the companies just replace 60% or more of the workforce with automation?


----------



## -JeKo-

I don't get Jeff's opinion on the roasted stuff. To me it almost seems that he doesn't much what he's talking about. Suhr, Anderson, EBMM are using it and so are a ton of small builders. I have two Suhrs and both have a roasted maple neck, I love them! Very stable, even here in Scandinavia where it's cold and dry in the wintertime.

Kiesels are good bang-for-the-buck guitars but they don't compete with something like Suhr in terms of quality. If you want a guitar in the $1000-1500 range with a few nice options, Kiesel is a good choice IMO. Personally I don't like too much eye-candy. My two custom Suhrs are pretty basic looking guitars but they're absolutely amazing.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

-JeKo- said:


> I don't get Jeff's opinion on the roasted stuff. To me it almost seems that he doesn't much what he's talking about. Suhr, Anderson, EBMM are using it and so are a ton of small builders. I have two Suhrs and both have a roasted maple neck, I love them! Very stable, even here in Scandinavia where it's cold and dry in the wintertime.
> 
> Kiesels are good bang-for-the-buck guitars but they don't compete with something like Suhr in terms of quality. If you want a guitar in the $1000-1500 range with a few nice options, Kiesel is a good choice IMO. Personally I don't like too much eye-candy. My two custom Suhrs are pretty basic looking guitars but they're absolutely amazing.



I'm with you. I don't fancy woods, just plain solid colors are what I like, but even those are expensive as hell now at Kiesel, especially when I can just get another RG550RFR for half the price.


----------



## Sogradde

-JeKo- said:


> I don't get Jeff's opinion on the roasted stuff. To me it almost seems that he doesn't much what he's talking about. Suhr, Anderson, EBMM are using it and so are a ton of small builders. I have two Suhrs and both have a roasted maple neck, I love them! Very stable, even here in Scandinavia where it's cold and dry in the wintertime.



I stopped watching the video after a minute, did he claim roasted maple necks were less stable or expensive or both? I would pay money to see him talk to Misha, who has some reasonable arguments for baked maple being more stable (ssshh Marc, calm down!). Also didn't Agile just ship out like $400 guitars with baked maple necks?

Boo Wendy Testerburger Jeff Kiesel, boo!


----------



## spudmunkey

If you look around on woodworking forums, there are legitimately lots of folks who have had bad experiences with roasted woods, primarily splintering and cracking. Typically small samples where someone bought a small amount, and it didn't work out. In previous videos, Jeff mentioned that they have actually tried it. I'm not 100% sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but I think it was customer-supplied wood and it was a small amount of wood.

Either way, they didn't like working with the piece(s) they had, for whatever reason, and the reasons given publicly line up with issues other woodworkers have had with it.

And he's not the only one with issues with it. Mike lewis of Fender's VP of product development says something like, "And this base has a roasted body...can't get a roasted neck on basses, for obvious reasons, because of lack of stability there."


There was a luthier over on talkbass that I remember saying that after building a few hundred roasted necks, that the wood was less likely to be effected by humidity and temperature, but was actually less structurally "stiff", softer, and much more likely to crack and splinter, than "regular" wood, as well as seemingly more likely to break a headstock off. Can't remember his name, though...I'll see if I can find the posts.

With that said, 

My prediction: like multiscale, where jeff said he didn't like it until he came across the exact geometry he likes (whether it was because of in-house experimentation, or he came across what he liked), or active pickups where he says he didn't like them, but liked their A60/A70/A80 the best), I suspect he'll continue to say he doesn't like roasted woods until they get a reliable source for a consistent quality and then will proclaim that _this_ roasted wood is the best in the business. And they will charge for it.


----------



## spudmunkey

Bruce Johnson is the name of the luthier I mentioned above. He gives lots of his experiences after reportedly building 300+ guitars with roasted woods:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/roasted-maple-unstable-reall.1216639/#post-18623500


----------



## MatiasTolkki

That' the problem. Everything is how HE wants it, not what the customers want. He wont release proof of the 22 pole piece pickup sales, but they had to be better than he's bitching about. It doesn't help that he thinks Lundgren M series are pups for everyone but if you read anything about Lundgrens, they CLEARLY are not for everyone and every style of music (He stated publicly that the Lithiums were based on those, and if you asked Lundgren himself he'd tell you the M series are NOT for everyone and ARE modern voiced.)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The baked woods are actually stiffer and harder, which isn't exactly a great thing in and of itself. 

Harder woods are more likely to crack and splinter when flexed, but since they're less likely to flex they typically don't move as much when exposed to change in climate. 

That's why use case is important. 

The added rigidity is why you see it being applied to figured necks, which on thier own are typically more prone to flexing with changes in temperature and humidity. 

Of course the best way to mitigate the frailty of the baked woods is to add reinforcement rods of an even less flexible material to prevent it from reaching the point of cracking, but that's not going to do anything for the headstock.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> The baked woods are actually stiffer and harder, which isn't exactly a great thing in and of itself.
> 
> Harder woods are more likely to crack and splinter when flexed, but since they're less likely to flex they typically don't move as much when exposed to change in climate.
> 
> That's why use case is important.
> 
> The added rigidity is why you see it being applied to figured necks, which on thier own are typically more prone to flexing with changes in temperature and humidity.
> 
> Of course the best way to mitigate the frailty of the baked woods is to add reinforcement rods of an even less flexible material to prevent it from reaching the point of cracking, but that's not going to do anything for the headstock.



And Jeff always brags about using dual carbon fiber rods, which is exactly the point you're making.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> And Jeff always brags about using dual carbon fiber rods, which is exactly the point you're making.



It's not the easiest material to work with, and I don't feel that Jeff and his team are up to the challenge at this point and time. Which isn't really a dig at them, I think they should get good at working the stuff before charging customers for it. 

We all know Jeff's m-o at this point. He'll rag on something, while behind the scenes work on it until it's ready for prime time, which by then they'll talk up how they mastered some special way that makes it better than what they were bitching about last time. Rinse. Repeat.


----------



## technomancer

The baked woods, like everything else Kiesel does, is down to maximizing profits. Why pay more to buy roasted woods and learn which variety you need (bake time, temp, etc etc) to work with them when you can charge customers the same price for applying $5 worth of finish and hype it up as special feature etc etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> We all know Jeff's m-o at this point. He'll rag on something, while behind the scenes work on it until it's ready for prime time, which by then they'll talk up how they mastered some special way that makes it better than what they were bitching about last time. Rinse. Repeat.



Meh, par for the course. Doesn't mean i agree with it, but Kiesel isn't alone.

Chevy putting aluminum body panels on their new (or soon coming) pickup trucks after spending countless dollars on an entire marketing campaign talking about how terrible it was that Ford was doing it (how much easier it is to damage, how much more expensive it is to repair, etc etc).

Phone companies making fun of Apple's "courage" to remove headphone jacks, then making models without them.

etc...


----------



## Seabeast2000

The marketing dept and the product development dept are really seldom on the same page of the same book. In this case, the two depts are the same guy but hey, maybe he compartmentailizes.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> The marketing dept and the product development dept are really seldom on the same page of the same book. In this case, the two depts are the same guy but hey, maybe he compartmentailizes.



I think the terms you're looking for are "Full of shit" or "Schizophrenic"


----------



## Flappydoodle

The906 said:


> The marketing dept and the product development dept are really seldom on the same page of the same book. In this case, the two depts are the same guy but hey, maybe he compartmentailizes.



Totally normal.

Something is bad when a competitor does it, and good when we do it.

Literally every company does that


----------



## oracles

MatiasTolkki said:


> He stated publicly that the Lithiums were based on Lundgren M series



He's very clearly never heard Lundgrens then, the lithiums are gutless, shrill fridge magnets that neither sound or respond anything like a Lundgren.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

oracles said:


> He's very clearly never heard Lundgrens then, the lithiums are gutless, shrill fridge magnets that neither sound or respond anything like a Lundgren.



Well go back and see some of the live streams from when that punk announced the lithiums way back when. He says multiple times "I'm a fan of Lundgrens," which is where he got his ideas from. Also, if you read the lundgren website about the M series, they are VERY modern voiced, which is also why Punk bitch made the lithiums "modern." I know they're lifeless pieces of shit, I'd rather have Ibanez V7/V8 pups before the magnet swap (I actually do right now in my 550, and they aren't horrible) over those lifeless, shrill Shittium pickups.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> when that punk announced...





MatiasTolkki said:


> Punk bitch made the lithiums "modern."





MatiasTolkki said:


> Shittium pickups.



Jesus Christ, dude. It's amazing how much you remind me of my uncle Leroy, whose facebook posts are nothing but "Obummer", "Shillary"/"Killary", "Libtard"/"Dumb-ocrats".

So, I saw this post in the thread where someone was looking for suggestions of a US-made guitar with specific specifications and pricepoint. http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/who-makes-a-guitar-with-these-features.328826/

I suggested a Used Carvin or Kiesel, and even included "Going with used means not dealing with their customer service, if that's a concern for you."

I was writing the post below in response to your post, but didn't think it was worth mentioning in his thread, derailing that conversation:



MatiasTolkki said:


> I felt that exact way when I got my JB200. I was like "I got this REALLY awesome guitar for this cheap? WTF?" Then the price increases started coming and now the cost to get a Kiesel in Japan with any sort of figured woods gets you almost into ESP top line territory, and no Kiesel is worth that.



But, to be clear, since OP is in Indiana, the price for him would have only gone up $100 since the JB200C model launched in 2012, almost 6 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, even though the selling price went up $100, it's "technically" $40 cheaper with the changed buying power of the dollar. And with that $100 selling price increase you get $140 of added value thrown in that you didn't get before because you'd now get stainless frets, and $100 in free upgrades that wasn't in place in 2012. So not only is it $30 "cheaper", it's another $140 of added value, making a 2018 JB200C up to $170 less expensive than when it launched. 2018 JB200C with stainless frets and optional 5-piece neck, technically when all is said and done, is only something like $10 more expensive than it was when it launched in 2012 without those upgrades. It also had the active preamp though to be fair to the 2012 launch price, for which they lost their supplier.

Don't take this as discounting your experiences in Japan at all. Obviously they are valid, and real. However, they don't apply to someone specifically buying from Kiesel in the US. I'm also not saying that make models and options HAVEN'T gotten more expensive, even outpacing inflation. Many clearly have. But, comparing their prices now to their prices 3, 5 or 10 years ago isn't all that useful when you still have to compare it to many many other guitars in the same market, here and now...unless someone creates affordable time machines. I'm not saying that are the best value, but still quite a compelling choice...

...that is, if you're not turned off by some of the customer service stories, or the personality of the current face of the company. Again, both of which are valid reasons to hesitate, or turn away completely.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I'll second that the lithiums are nothing like the m-series pickups. The only thing they have in common is a tight low end. The m series have a gritty/growly midrange that the lithiums just don't have. The m6 and m8 bridges have a ridiculously stiff sound that the lithiums lack, which makes the m6/m8 destroy for metal rhythm work, but also makes em suck ass for lead work imo. The lithiums are brighter and more versatile imo. Still some of the best stock pickups i've tried since balaguer's feral/evergreen combo.


----------



## gunch

The people that make it a point to bag on Kiesel at every turn are just as annoying as Kiesel himself. Like, yeah if you had a bad experience with the company or what have you, your voice should be absolutely be heard but if you’re searching every post mentioning Kiesels just to shit on them it gets pretty old. His bad pr and bad blood with this site in general (cutting ads debacle) aside he’s bringing in endorsees by the truckload and putting out (some) cool new designs. 

All I’m saying is petty name calling is a bad look. Live and let live


----------



## Possessed

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well go back and see some of the live streams from when that punk announced the lithiums way back when. He says multiple times "I'm a fan of Lundgrens," which is where he got his ideas from. Also, if you read the lundgren website about the M series, they are VERY modern voiced, which is also why Punk bitch made the lithiums "modern." I know they're lifeless pieces of shit, I'd rather have Ibanez V7/V8 pups before the magnet swap (I actually do right now in my 550, and they aren't horrible) over those lifeless, shrill Shittium pickups.



Yep, I remember he stated that his pu is based on M series


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Jesus Christ, dude. It's amazing how much you remind me of my uncle Leroy, whose facebook posts are nothing but "Obummer", "Shillary"/"Killary", "Libtard"/"Dumb-ocrats".
> 
> So, I saw this post in the thread where someone was looking for suggestions of a US-made guitar with specific specifications and pricepoint. http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/who-makes-a-guitar-with-these-features.328826/
> 
> I suggested a Used Carvin or Kiesel, and even included "Going with used means not dealing with their customer service, if that's a concern for you."
> 
> I was writing the post below in response to your post, but didn't think it was worth mentioning in his thread, derailing that conversation:
> 
> 
> 
> But, to be clear, since OP is in Indiana, the price for him would have only gone up $100 since the JB200C model launched in 2012, almost 6 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, even though the selling price went up $100, it's "technically" $40 cheaper with the changed buying power of the dollar. And with that $100 selling price increase you get $140 of added value thrown in that you didn't get before because you'd now get stainless frets, and $100 in free upgrades that wasn't in place in 2012. So not only is it $30 "cheaper", it's another $140 of added value, making a 2018 JB200C up to $170 less expensive than when it launched. 2018 JB200C with stainless frets and optional 5-piece neck, technically when all is said and done, is only something like $10 more expensive than it was when it launched in 2012 without those upgrades. It also had the active preamp though to be fair to the 2012 launch price, for which they lost their supplier.
> 
> Don't take this as discounting your experiences in Japan at all. Obviously they are valid, and real. However, they don't apply to someone specifically buying from Kiesel in the US. I'm also not saying that make models and options HAVEN'T gotten more expensive, even outpacing inflation. Many clearly have. But, comparing their prices now to their prices 3, 5 or 10 years ago isn't all that useful when you still have to compare it to many many other guitars in the same market, here and now...unless someone creates affordable time machines. I'm not saying that are the best value, but still quite a compelling choice...
> 
> ...that is, if you're not turned off by some of the customer service stories, or the personality of the current face of the company. Again, both of which are valid reasons to hesitate, or turn away completely.



Let's remember, Jeff has been taking shots at the quality of the guitars coming out of "Asian" countries, posting memes bashing the Ibanez guys for looking at his guitars, like he's some master of originality or something. NO. If you don't like that I called him names after I've had to put up with Japan-bashing from his stupid mouth for years, then that's on you.

I love how you took a comment from a COMPLETELY different thread, with totally different context where I was PRAISING my JB200 and discussing price points of Kiesels and how they are consistently raising their prices to where it's not as "affordable" as it seems. 

So let's go over price points again, shall we?

My JB200 was 236,000 yen, after having to deal with a boneheaded dealer who couldn't answer any of my questions so I had to use the Carvin Forums, talk to Mike and Chris and VARIOUS other people to work out the ordering process, because it was a bloody pain in the ass (that was the dealer's fault, Chris, Mike, Rab, you, all sorts of people were extremely helpful and understanding of the situation, and I can't thank you all enough for the help you gave me then). However, my JB200 came stock with the M22SD/V set AND it has the active electronics, and the Active pre-amp on a DC127 back then was an upcharge of over 150 bucks (I think it was like 200 or 250 but I can't remember exactly). THAT'S value and why I went with it, as I could see the value in getting a lot of really cool bells and whistles all included in that. What does the JB200 have now? Pickups I can't stand, no preamp, and you can't even choose the color anymore (I am not a huge fan of blue guitars, I prefer purple and my JB200 is a work of art imo, had I had no choice in color, I probably wouldn't have ordered it). They MAY have dropped in price a little bit, but look at the fact that to do that they had to take away one of the coolest and original ideas that NO guitar maker outside of Carvin was using: Active pre-amp in guitars. Add into the price hikes it seems almost every year, and that "Affordable" semi-custom shop experience is gone.


----------



## Cynicanal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Pickups I can't stand


Pretty sure M22s are still available if you call an order in; a friend of mine received his DC600 with M22s a bit over a month ago. I don't think they're out of parts yet.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Pretty sure M22s are still available if you call an order in; a friend of mine received his DC600 with M22s a bit over a month ago. I don't think they're out of parts yet.



That wasn't my point at all, but nice try.


----------



## Cynicanal

You said it's only available with pickups you can't stand. That's demonstrably not the case.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> You said it's only available with pickups you can't stand. That's demonstrably not the case.



What are the stock pickups on just about all their guitars now? Lithiums. Even if I was going to buy another Kiesel (which I'm not, and not financially able to for a LONG time even if I was) the M series are upcharges, NOT stock pickups. I have an unused set as it is, plus an Unused M22N as well.


----------



## Cynicanal

Yeah, that $10 upcharge is such a crushing financial burden, I totally hear you.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

@MatiasTolkki You’re officially living rent-free in two people’s heads.


----------



## RockMixer

Kiesel Guitars basically suck anyway! Jeff has single handed destroyed his grandfather, father and uncles business! I WILL NEVER BUY A KIESEL!!!
Tom Anderson, Suhr, Charvel Guthrie! Stick to the good shit!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Yeah, that $10 upcharge is such a crushing financial burden, I totally hear you.



That's not even my point, although you want to make it seem that way. You also ignored my entire previous novella on the last page about costs and Kiesel being "worth the money." Guess that doesn't fit in with your narrative.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> @MatiasTolkki You’re officially living rent-free in two people’s heads.



I wish I was actually, it would make my life a LOT easier


----------



## exo

If I was to be brutally honest, this thread has pretty much descended into “Matias takes a giant shit on anything Keisel related that doesn’t involve his JB200....”


Dude. We GET IT. Might be time to dial it down a few notches.....Just sayin.....


----------



## MatiasTolkki

exo said:


> If I was to be brutally honest, this thread has pretty much descended into “Matias takes a giant shit on anything Keisel related that doesn’t involve his JB200....”
> 
> 
> Dude. We GET IT. Might be time to dial it down a few notches.....Just sayin.....



Well, I was staying away from this thread until a certain person replied to me. Then it started all over again. Not my fault if someone wants to come at me and I have to stand my ground.


----------



## iamaom

RockMixer said:


> Kiesel Guitars basically suck anyway! Jeff has single handed destroyed his grandfather, father and uncles business! I WILL NEVER BUY A KIESEL!!!
> Tom Anderson, Suhr, Charvel Guthrie! Stick to the good shit!


But they're the only ones putting out affordable headlesses. They're sucking up so many artists I have no idea why Jackson or Ibanez won't take the plunge and put out a single headless model, a RGH iron label for ~$800 would put Kiesel out of business.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

iamaom said:


> But they're the only ones putting out affordable headlesses. They're sucking up so many artists I have no idea why Jackson or Ibanez won't take the plunge and put out a single headless model, a RGH iron label for ~$800 would put Kiesel out of business.



Because Ibanez knows it's a niche market and Ibanez hasn't been willing to take major risks in a long while. Steinberger was around for a LONG time but it's not like everyone uses headless guitars, and that has never been Ibanez's bread and butter. BTW, I do remember Ibanez had a headless model in the 1980s and it sold like crap, can't remember the model name though.

I think what Jeff has done is try to make a niche market a mainstream one, and while they may be selling 3000 guitars a year (or so he claims), not all of those are headless, and his alienating of older fans with various decisions has hurt the brand imo. Before, the only headless was the Holdsworth model, and people were happy with that, except for the fingerboard radius basically. He'll get the short term bandwagon jumpers to come to the brand, but I don't think he'll be able to keep this up just on headless models. Besides, Ibanez re-releasing the 550s at the price point they did is already dealing enough damage to Kiesel's sales.


----------



## feraledge

iamaom said:


> I have no idea why Jackson or Ibanez won't take the plunge and put out a single headless model,



Because, unlike Kiesel, Jackson and Ibanez have cool headstocks.


----------



## Cheap

feraledge said:


> Because, unlike Kiesel, Jackson and Ibanez have cool headstocks.



Maybe that was his plan all along to move headless models.. With all of the fugly 'stocks it's easy to want any of their headless models and find them attractive when directly comparing.

Like a 6 hanging out in a group of 4's. Instantly the better option.


----------



## V_man

iamaom said:


> But they're the only ones putting out affordable headlesses. They're sucking up so many artists I have no idea why Jackson or Ibanez won't take the plunge and put out a single headless model, a RGH iron label for ~$800 would put Kiesel out of business.



Because some brands have identity and they don´t do things just for the sake of it. Esp should bring back the standard series & jackson should made more finishies available for the usa select series


----------



## MatiasTolkki

V_man said:


> Because some brands have identity and they don´t do things just for the sake of it. Esp should bring back the standard series & jackson should made more finishies available for the usa select series



To be fair, the E-II IS the standard series by another name, whether you like that or not is your deal, but ESP is a hard company to pin down on a lot of things, like dating and such because they didn't keep good records or backups when the fire destroyed all of that stuff. ESP has quite a few more serious problems than E-II vs SS (although they only changed the name so the ESP name didn't get sullied or created confusion between the brands).

That being said, Ibanez is a FAR bigger company than Kiesel will EVER be. 3000 guitars is chump change to them; Ibanez is like "Isn't that cute, Kiesel sold 3000 guitars." So yeah, I don't know if it's fair to compare a tiny company (in the grand scheme of things) to a conglomerate that has existed for over 100 years.


----------



## feraledge

MatiasTolkki said:


> ESP is a hard company to pin down on a lot of things, like dating and such because they didn't keep good records or backups when the fire destroyed all of that stuff. ESP has quite a few more serious problems than E-II vs SS (although they only changed the name so the ESP name didn't get sullied or created confusion between the brands).


You're getting out of your league a bit here. The dating stuff is pretty minor. Any guitar with a bolt on neck has dates in the cavities. And they've used a standardized system for nearly two decades since. 
We're all fans for certain brands, we get it, but c'mon. You can't accept a change they made within the last few years (EII, which I'm beyond fine with) and then hold a grudge about some shitty record keeping from the 80s and 90s.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

MatiasTolkki said:


> Because Ibanez knows it's a niche market and Ibanez hasn't been willing to take major risks in a long while.



Hasn't been _that_ long since Ibanez dipped its toes into a niche market...


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


> You're getting out of your league a bit here. The dating stuff is pretty minor. Any guitar with a bolt on neck has dates in the cavities. And they've used a standardized system for nearly two decades since.
> We're all fans for certain brands, we get it, but c'mon. You can't accept a change they made within the last few years (EII, which I'm beyond fine with) and then hold a grudge about some shitty record keeping from the 80s and 90s.


I don´t like the e-ii thing because it doesn´t show proudness from the brand. Why you didn´t put your name on it?. Thats the reason I like jackson more. They put they name on everything the good and "the not as good" stuff.


----------



## spork141

I wish we can just close this thread. It's just trolling at this point. I have 25 guitars and 2 of them are Kiesel builds and they are fine. Nobody made me order them. I didn't get tricked into anything. I knew about this thread prior to doing it and did it anyway. Jeff can be equal parts helpful and cheesy. They aren't my best guitars, nor my worst. I see their guitar posts and say wow or meh.... it just keeps going.

What's the point of this thread still? Like them or don't. If you don't like them or won't order from them anymore then why are you still on this thread at all? Just move on to guitars you do like and ... well...go like them on those threads.


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


> I don´t like the e-ii thing because it doesn´t show proudness from the brand. Why you didn´t put your name on it?. Thats the reason I like jackson more. They put they name on everything the good and "the not as good" stuff.


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


>



Then why they put espUSA on the usa stuff?


----------



## feraledge

spork141 said:


> What's the point of this post still? Like it or don't. If you don't like it or won't read from it anymore then why are you still on this thread at all? Just move on to threads you do like and ... well...go like them threads.


Fixed. 

There's some shit posting in here, but you can expect that when someone like Jeff shits on everything else. Otherwise, there's little in this thread that isn't valid or important. If you don't like it, then don't read it. No one says everything Kiesel makes is garbage, just that Jeff is a garbage person, and, as the head and face of the company, that matters.


----------



## Vhyle

spork141 said:


> What's the point of this thread still? Like them or don't. If you don't like them or won't order from them anymore then why are you still on this thread at all? Just move on to guitars you do like and ... well...go like them on those threads.



To inform future buyers of Kiesel's business practices. The odds are in the consumer's favor that they will get a well-built guitar, with all things considered. And at this point, I believe that's common knowledge. But people who are interested in the brand need to know that they are still betting on a crapshoot if they so choose to make a custom-ordered purchase through Kiesel. People need to be aware of the stunts they pull as a company. It's not like everyone has it out for Kiesel for no reason. They have exhibited some extraordinarily awful behaviors with their business, as anyone could tell with some quick googling. I feel like if anyone was willing to drop several thousand bucks on a custom build, they would be inclined to do some research first, and to take every possible route away from getting boned in the process. They are the ones who need to know about this, before they buy themselves into a potentially shit situation.


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


> Then why they put espUSA on the usa stuff?


Because it's made in the USA? Just some speculative fan fiction. Carry on...


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


> Because it's made in the USA? Just some speculative fan fiction. Carry on...



The real esp are made in japan. That what they are saying when they put the sub-branding stamp.


----------



## spork141

Vhyle said:


> To inform future buyers of Kiesel's business practices. The odds are in the consumer's favor that they will get a well-built guitar, with all things considered. And at this point, I believe that's common knowledge. But people who are interested in the brand need to know that they are still betting on a crapshoot if they so choose to make a custom-ordered purchase through Kiesel. People need to be aware of the stunts they pull as a company. It's not like everyone has it out for Kiesel for no reason. They have exhibited some extraordinarily awful behaviors with their business, as anyone could tell with some quick googling. I feel like if anyone was willing to drop several thousand bucks on a custom build, they would be inclined to do some research first, and to take every possible route away from getting boned in the process. They are the ones who need to know about this, before they buy themselves into a potentially shit situation.



Yup noted. But that was clear on post #1 to about page 5. This thread is now almost 90 pages deep now. It's just become this hate pit. 

oh and yeah. Enough with the ESP logos on the 12th fret board and the EII brand  I would support a 90 page thread on that topic for sure!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spork141 said:


> It's just become this hate pit.



That's the point. 

If we close this thread it's just going to spill out into dozens of other threads, at least more so.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Hasn't been _that_ long since Ibanez dipped its toes into a niche market...



Yeah but it's not like Ibanez even puts any real effort into this models compared to their regular stuff. Also, like I said, Ibanez has done a headless before, it failed, and they havent done it since.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

feraledge said:


> You're getting out of your league a bit here. The dating stuff is pretty minor. Any guitar with a bolt on neck has dates in the cavities. And they've used a standardized system for nearly two decades since.
> We're all fans for certain brands, we get it, but c'mon. You can't accept a change they made within the last few years (EII, which I'm beyond fine with) and then hold a grudge about some shitty record keeping from the 80s and 90s.



I'm not holding a grudge against ESP, I'm just stating something about ESP that i know happened, that's all. My reasons for not really being an ESP guy is completely unrelated to the E-II thing (for the record, I LIKE the E-II naming, I think it's kinda cool).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

V_man said:


> Then why they put espUSA on the usa stuff?



Dude, you DO realize part of the problem with the standard series was that the branding made it harder for shops over here to label them, lots of mistakes happened and people were selling SS line stuff as top line ESP guitars, when they weren't. THAT'S why they changed, to prevent people from getting defrauded, *or at least that's what I've read a lot of places.*


----------



## MatiasTolkki

V_man said:


> The real esp are made in japan. That what they are saying when they put the sub-branding stamp.



Now you're just being a fanboy. E-IIs/Standard Series are MIJ dude.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spork141 said:


> I wish we can just close this thread. It's just trolling at this point. I have 25 guitars and 2 of them are Kiesel builds and they are fine. Nobody made me order them. I didn't get tricked into anything. I knew about this thread prior to doing it and did it anyway. Jeff can be equal parts helpful and cheesy. They aren't my best guitars, nor my worst. I see their guitar posts and say wow or meh.... it just keeps going.
> 
> What's the point of this thread still? Like them or don't. If you don't like them or won't order from them anymore then why are you still on this thread at all? Just move on to guitars you do like and ... well...go like them on those threads.



No it's not trolling, people want to complain about Kiesel for various reasons. Yeah I got pretty heated with some of my comments, but when you have a jackass as VP playing company face and outright BASHING the country I have decided to make my life in, that REALLY gets to you after awhile.


----------



## spork141

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the point.
> 
> If we close this thread it's just going to spill out into dozens of other threads, at least more so.



Best point on this thread  Im in. Lets keep it!


----------



## V_man

MatiasTolkki said:


> Now you're just being a fanboy. E-IIs/Standard Series are MIJ dude.


No, I am just someone with a crystal clear opinion on the web


----------



## V_man

MatiasTolkki said:


> Now you're just being a fanboy. E-IIs/Standard Series are MIJ dude.


No, I am just someone with a crystal clear opinion on the web


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


> The real esp are made in japan. That what they are saying when they put the sub-branding stamp.


Cool, I’ll call up ESP and tell them all about the bootleggers at ESP USA. Or you can just accept that ESP is in a relatively ideal position to determine what is or is not ESP.


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


> Cool, I’ll call up ESP and tell them all about the bootleggers at ESP USA. Or you can just accept that ESP is in a relatively ideal position to determine what is or is not ESP.


Or they can stamp their made in japan stuff "esp original"


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


> Or they can stamp their made in japan stuff "esp original"


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah but it's not like Ibanez even puts any real effort into this models compared to their regular stuff. Also, like I said, Ibanez has done a headless before, it failed, and they havent done it since.



Irrelevant to my point. You can't use "It's a niche market and Ibanez hasn't been willing to take risks in a long while" as a reason they won't make a headless when clearly it _hasn't _been a long while since they've taken a risk in a niche market. Adding "Yeah, but..." is just moving the goalposts. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting they make a new Sugi-made headless that's a permanent fixture in their lineup, or whatever it is you think "putting any real effort into it" might entail. Just an affordable Indo headless that's limited production unless it catches on. You know, like the multiscale models.

I'm not sure I'd use "They tried it once already" as an excuse, either. This entire site is based on a type of guitar that Ibanez tried once, wasn't really successful, then brought back when it became trendy again later.


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


>


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


>


Yes? And?? ESP Japan also has multiple custom shops and production facilities, taking issue there too?


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


> Yes? And?? ESP Japan also has multiple custom shops and production facilities, taking issue there too?



If they are "real esp" remove the "esp usa" stamp. If they put that stamp on it, they are assuring that you are not there yet with your search for a "real esp".


----------



## feraledge

V_man said:


> If they are "real esp" remove the "esp usa" stamp. If they put that stamp on it, they are assuring that you are not there yet with your search for a "real esp".


----------



## V_man

feraledge said:


>


----------



## Edika

feraledge said:


> Because, unlike Kiesel, Jackson and Ibanez have cool headstocks.



That is true but I do like their more classic inline headstock with the more rounded/classic shape of the older DC series.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Edika said:


> That is true but I do like their more classic inline headstock with the more rounded/classic shape of the older DC series.



I dont mind the Reverse angled on my JB200. Sure it's no Ibanez, but It's still nice anyway.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

so how many people are on the "Kiesel is trapping themselves by focusing on headless guitars" bandwagon? Yet ANOTHER headless guitar announced...


----------



## technomancer

MatiasTolkki said:


> so how many people are on the "Kiesel is trapping themselves by focusing on headless guitars" bandwagon? Yet ANOTHER headless guitar announced...



Are you talking about the acoustic / electric Zeus?

I would say the headless guitars are a good move by Kiesel as it is a niche that is popular right now where there isn't a lot of competition  They also still have plenty of non-headless models so not like they're exiting the conventional guitar market.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

technomancer said:


> Are you talking about the acoustic / electric Zeus?
> 
> I would say the headless guitars are a good move by Kiesel as it is a niche that is popular right now where there isn't a lot of competition  They also still have plenty of non-headless models so not like they're exiting the conventional guitar market.



Yeah i'm eluding to the zeus acoustic.

My concern is that they are pushing WAY too hard into the headless thing, without doing little things that might increase sales of older models, like a standard belly cut on the Vs. Sure, right now they are the headless leaders (with a headless leader at the helm) but this could REALLY backfire in their faces if their niche market goes under.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

If Kiesel sells 3000 guitars at $1500 average, that is horrible. 
However,
If Ibanez sells 10,000 at $500 average, it is totally fine. 
It's an example. You're talking about two entirely different markets. Judging a company on how many they sell without factoring in the price is just lazy and biased towards the company you prefer. 

A company like Ibanez will always sell more guitars because they are cheaper. When it comes to the Prestige line is where the more money comes in but honestly I am sure they sell more $300 RG's. 

I am an ERG player and the lack of mid range guitars for me is lacking. I don't like Ibanez Prestige. I have had 2 and the necks are just not comfy to me. Please tell me where I can get a headless 8 string with a tremolo for around $1500 and I will go there. Until then, I will continue to buy Kiesels.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah i'm eluding to the zeus acoustic.
> 
> My concern is that they are pushing WAY too hard into the headless thing, without doing little things that might increase sales of older models, like a standard belly cut on the Vs. Sure, right now they are the headless leaders (with a headless leader at the helm) but this could REALLY backfire in their faces if their niche market goes under.



They did just do some improvements to the DC body. They are improvements for me at least.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> If Kiesel sells 3000 guitars at $1500 average, that is horrible.
> However,
> If Ibanez sells 10,000 at $500 average, it is totally fine.
> It's an example. You're talking about two entirely different markets. Judging a company on how many they sell without factoring in the price is just lazy and biased towards the company you prefer.
> 
> A company like Ibanez will always sell more guitars because they are cheaper. When it comes to the Prestige line is where the more money comes in but honestly I am sure they sell more $300 RG's.
> 
> I am an ERG player and the lack of mid range guitars for me is lacking. I don't like Ibanez Prestige. I have had 2 and the necks are just not comfy to me. Please tell me where I can get a headless 8 string with a tremolo for around $1500 and I will go there. Until then, I will continue to buy Kiesels.



i'm not saying either Ibanez's massive sales of cheap guitars vs Kiesels smaller number at a higher price is the issue (and if you read my impression of the Indonesian AZ model I played a couple weeks ago, you know I was completely pissed that Ibanez would let such a horrible quality guitar out of their factory). 

My point here is that I think Kiesel is pushing too hard in one direction for a quick buck. They are basically using a business model like the bigger makers (i.e. Ibanez, Fender etc) on a niche market, that while they are selling now, if Ibanez or any other factory maker was to drop a 1000 dollar Headless guitar into the market, Kiesel would be screwed royally (someone else mentioned this same thing). 

Also, I'm not bashing Kiesel just to bash them (even though that's what I have done a lot of). I'm looking at the risks of Kiesel playing this game of focusing on a fringe market where they currently hold dominance but could VERY easily lose it... Especially since Steinbergers are being made again. If Steinberger was to regain any foothold in the market, that could REALLY nail Kiesel's head to the wall.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> They did just do some improvements to the DC body. They are improvements for me at least.



Vader bevels? My friend has those on his DC600 and they do feel nice, but they just make it feel like a neck through RGD imo. The DC600 is a nice model though, my only real gripe is that it's between and RG and an S, and if I wanted something like that, I'd just get the Saber since it's even thinner and lighter, along with having perfect balance at the neck joint.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah i'm eluding to the zeus acoustic.
> 
> My concern is that they are pushing WAY too hard into the headless thing, without doing little things that might increase sales of older models, like a standard belly cut on the Vs. Sure, right now they are the headless leaders (with a headless leader at the helm) but this could REALLY backfire in their faces if their niche market goes under.



I mean, are you really CONCERNED about Kiesel's prosperity and business acumen?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> I mean, are you really CONCERNED about Kiesel's prosperity and business acumen?



So it's wrong to criticize something without losing my shit over it?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MatiasTolkki said:


> So it's wrong to criticize something without losing my shit over it?


No not wrong at all. It’s just your original tone wasn’t as bright so we take this as more toxicity.

I do get the point though. A business that focuses on a niche too much will have a hard time leaving it when the trend changes.


----------



## Seabeast2000

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> No not wrong at all. It’s just your original tone wasn’t as bright so we take this as more toxicity.
> 
> I do get the point though. A business that focuses on a niche too much will have a hard time leaving it when the trend changes.


Anyone know where I can buy some Crystal Pepsi?


----------



## QuantumCybin

The906 said:


> Anyone know where I can buy some Crystal Pepsi?



Same place you can buy Pepsi One.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> No not wrong at all. It’s just your original tone wasn’t as bright so we take this as more toxicity.
> 
> I do get the point though. A business that focuses on a niche too much will have a hard time leaving it when the trend changes.



Well, I've cooled my jets for the most part, got that anger and vitriol out of the system. 

I just thought that if you push too hard in a niche direction for a short term cash grab at the expense of long-time fans and stable, long term earnings, the company is at risk of some SERIOUS damage going forward.


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> Anyone know where I can buy some Crystal Pepsi?



My local 7-11 had it just a few weeks ago. No, I'm not kidding.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> My local 7-11 had it just a few weeks ago. No, I'm not kidding.



You guys are WAY behind. You never had Cucumber Pepsi


----------



## spudmunkey

There's about a dozen pepsi flavors that never made it here, and I'm A-OK with that. Pepsi Yogurt?!?!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> There's about a dozen pepsi flavors that never made it here, and I'm A-OK with that. Pepsi Yogurt?!?!



what was scary was that cucumber pepsi was weird and not like cucumber at all, but addicting as all hell. I think I bought one almost every day while it was on sale.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

So I am going to get a shot across the bow at El Farterino Whifferino, because I just tested a theory and it went better than even I expected.

I dropped my set of M22SD/AP11/M22N pups into my "Asian" made RG550, and the difference between the pickups is night and day. The Carvin pups took my "Asian" guitar and made it sustain basically as much as my JB200, which is neck thru. So that putz can take a hike as he has no clue wtf he's talking about.


----------



## Vyn

MatiasTolkki said:


> So I am going to get a shot across the bow at El Farterino Whifferin



Don't ever change Matias, you're fucking beautiful xD


----------



## A-Branger

MatiasTolkki said:


> Well, I've cooled my jets for the most part, got that anger and vitriol out of the system.
> 
> I just thought that if you push too hard in a niche direction for a short term cash grab at the expense of long-time fans and stable, long term earnings, the company is at risk of some SERIOUS damage going forward.


and????

they found a niche market that works great for them, why not give more options. They still sell their old stuff, they havent discontinued anything. EVERY brand is at some point a niche market, yes Ibanez sells different models, but on the core they are an RG brand and done for guitars and SR for basses. same can be said for every other mayor brand. Kiesel happen to find their flagship model?.... who cares
trend would go away?..... dont think so.... and if it does?..... you really think they wont adapt and change too?....... but if they dont?..... again who cares?

the acoustic headless is pretty cool, a nice niche that no other brand has touched yet.... I would love to see how loud acoustically they are as they would eb the perfect gutiar to trow in the back of my little 4wd and play it when camping as it would be small.... but it might be jsut an acoustic/electric thing just for stages, like the really thin line of LTD or the yamaha wihtout body


but again who cares man?.... you been talking and talking and rant after rant, so why you care if they go down or not?.... at this point you are reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally nitpicking stuff. You already said your rant, be done and go in peace bro


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> So I am going to get a shot across the bow at El Farterino Whifferino, because I just tested a theory and it went better than even I expected.
> 
> I dropped my set of M22SD/AP11/M22N pups into my "Asian" made RG550, and the difference between the pickups is night and day. The Carvin pups took my "Asian" guitar and made it sustain basically as much as my JB200, which is neck thru. So that putz can take a hike as he has no clue wtf he's talking about.


You need a stabilized Golden Corral Seafood Night Top for these to work correctly.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Vyn said:


> Don't ever change Matias, you're fucking beautiful xD


----------



## MatiasTolkki

A-Branger said:


> and????
> 
> they found a niche market that works great for them, why not give more options. They still sell their old stuff, they havent discontinued anything.



Ummm, they discontinued the best pickups they ever made, the JB200SC, and various other stuff. Also lost the active electronics on the DC127/ST300/JB200. Might wanna reword what you said about discontinuing nothing.


----------



## LordCashew

In other news, a recent Facebook post from Kiesel appears to confirm the baked maple speculation some pages back...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

LordIronSpatula said:


> In other news, a recent Facebook post from Kiesel appears to confirm the baked maple speculation some pages back...



So they are going to do it now because everyone else is doing it?


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

A-Branger said:


> the acoustic headless is pretty cool, a nice niche that no other brand has touched yet....




Not in Western markets, maybe...

http://www.schoolmusic.co.kr/Shop/index.php3?var=Good&Good_no=30640&version=pc







(Korean brand, MIC. The price comes out to about $345 US.)


----------



## Hollowway

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Not in Western markets, maybe...
> 
> http://www.schoolmusic.co.kr/Shop/index.php3?var=Good&Good_no=30640&version=pc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Korean brand, MIC. The price comes out to about $345 US.)



Wow, that’s cool! If you told me that cost $2000 I’d believe it.

And, it should be pointed out, the new Kiesel is NOT an acoustic. It’s a semi hollow with a round hole in it. Chris Hong mentioned it’s a little thinner than the AC175. The AC375 is the “true” acoustic (and a pretty cool instrument, by the looks and specs).


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Same brand makes this fella. MIK, ~$835.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Corona’s headless stuff has been on my radar, but my Strandbergs and Steinbergers keep getting in the way of trying one out. If only they were more common in the US, I might impulse-buy one.



MatiasTolkki said:


> So I am going to get a shot across the bow at El Farterino Whifferino



Hey. Show some respect.


----------



## -JeKo-

LordIronSpatula said:


> In other news, a recent Facebook post from Kiesel appears to confirm the baked maple speculation some pages back...



Do you mean that birdseye neck? Still stained. They're not doing the real roasted stuff.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Corona’s headless stuff has been on my radar, but my Strandbergs and Steinbergers keep getting in the way of trying one out. If only they were more common in the US, I might impulse-buy one.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey. Show some respect.



I am showing respect


----------



## spudmunkey

LordIronSpatula said:


> In other news, a recent Facebook post from Kiesel appears to confirm the baked maple speculation some pages back...



What speculation? They've said time and time again that they don't offer actually-roasted maple, and that their option gives the _look _without the (in their seemingly limited experience) trade offs.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> And, it should be pointed out, the new Kiesel is NOT an acoustic. It’s a semi hollow with a round hole in it. Chris Hong mentioned it’s a little thinner than the AC175. The AC375 is the “true” acoustic (and a pretty cool instrument, by the looks and specs).



This. It'll be louder than, say, a Strat, but probably still quieter than a Martin Backpacker.






And the AC375's are really cool. I play mine more than my $4K taylor, just because it's more compact for couch noodling.


----------



## wannabguitarist

Saw Protest the Hero last night and Tim was playing Kiesels. Dunno if it was a San Diego thing (last stop of the tour) or he's a new endorser, but they looked cool


----------



## LordCashew

spudmunkey said:


> What speculation? They've said time and time again that they don't offer actually-roasted maple, and that their option gives the _look _without the (in their seemingly limited experience) trade offs.



Fair enough. Just saw a post asking "Are you a fan of baked birdseye maple necks?" in my feed. Someone like me, and I'd wager many other Facebook users not intimately acquainted with Kiesel's terminology, might not realize "Baked" is a finish treatment and assume the neck in the picture was actually roasted or baked. Luckily one of their fans/customers explained this in the comments.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> What speculation? They've said time and time again that they don't offer actually-roasted maple, and that their option gives the _look _without the (in their seemingly limited experience) trade offs.


I feel like they should call it something else though. I mean... it's not actual baked wood.


----------



## JSanta

Albake21 said:


> I feel like they should call it something else though. I mean... it's not actual baked wood.



Right, it's misleading if not completely false advertisement.


----------



## Seabeast2000

JSanta said:


> Right, it's misleading if not completely false advertisement.


It makes me hungry.


----------



## LordCashew

The906 said:


> It makes me hungry.


The neck in question did look quite delicious, uncooked or otherwise...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wannabguitarist said:


> Saw Protest the Hero last night and Tim was playing Kiesels. Dunno if it was a San Diego thing (last stop of the tour) or he's a new endorser, but they looked cool


that's weird considering they just got customs from padalka


----------



## Hollowway

KnightBrolaire said:


> that's weird considering they just got customs from padalka



Yeah, although if I had those Padalkas there's NFW I'd be playing them live. Those babies would be hanging out at home, protected!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, although if I had those Padalkas there's NFW I'd be playing them live. Those babies would be hanging out at home, protected!


you're right they're too pretty to get battle scars. that's why you order 2 more in solid colors


----------



## Hollowway

JSanta said:


> Right, it's misleading if not completely false advertisement.



Yeah, I just realized it's not actually baked maple. I'd never have known. I doubt that Jeff cares, though. He doesn't strike me as the type that would feel bad if someone mistook "baked maple" for "baked maple." TBH, I'm surprised it's not called "Kieselaked maple."


----------



## wannabguitarist

KnightBrolaire said:


> that's weird considering they just got customs from padalka



Luke played the same Ibanez all night while Tim played a DC for all the songs except Skies, where he used a Cresent. One of the roadies was carrying around this really pretty modern singlecut during setup that could have been a Padalka, but it wasn't used during any of the songs.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wannabguitarist said:


> Luke played the same Ibanez all night while Tim played a DC for all the songs except Skies, where he used a Cresent. One of the roadies was carrying around this really pretty modern singlecut during setup that could have been a Padalka, but it wasn't used during any of the songs.


maybe the kiesels were just loaners for the show. I do know Jeff would be crowing all about how he signed Protest the Hero and I haven't heard anything as far as that goes.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

LordIronSpatula said:


> Fair enough. Just saw a post asking "Are you a fan of baked birdseye maple necks?" in my feed. Someone like me, and I'd wager many other Facebook users not intimately acquainted with Kiesel's terminology, might not realize "Baked" is a finish treatment and assume the neck in the picture was actually roasted or baked. Luckily one of their fans/customers explained this in the comments.


What? That's crap. I'm glad I saw this post


----------



## MatiasTolkki

crankyrayhanky said:


> What? That's crap. I'm glad I saw this post



Yeah, Jeff Kiesel is known to do stupid shit like that because of his massive ego.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> that's weird considering they just got customs from padalka



Do they have an endorsement deal with Padalka? If they just have customs and not an exclusive endorsement deal, I could see why they would play Kiesels because they're in San Diego.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> Do they have an endorsement deal with Padalka? If they just have customs and not an exclusive endorsement deal, I could see why they would play Kiesels because they're in San Diego.


they don't have endorsements with anyone right now afaik. They both used to use ibanez and I think tim had a caparison for a while too.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> they don't have endorsements with anyone right now afaik. They both used to use ibanez and I think tim had a caparison for a while too.



then they are probably just trying to fluff Jeff a bit because it's S.D.


----------



## Seabeast2000

kroasted?


MatiasTolkki said:


> then they are probably just trying to fluff Jeff a bit because it's S.D.


Gross


----------



## LordCashew

The906 said:


> kroasted?



Kroasted, komplete with a big pyrographed "K" burnt into the back of the neck.

Maybe I should stop posting in this thread. I'm really not a Kiesel hater, I just think some of this stuff is hilarious...


----------



## couverdure

KnightBrolaire said:


> they don't have endorsements with anyone right now afaik. They both used to use ibanez and I think tim had a caparison for a while too.


Luke is endorsed by Ibanez and got two LACS RGAs last year as well as those Iron Label RGDs before that. Tim is (or was?) endorsed by ESP and used Caparisons before that, the Kiesel thing is very new to me.


----------



## feraledge

“Oh you thought I said ‘roasted maple’? BROASTED MAPLE, bro. Broasted. It’s like way tighter than that whack shit that Paul Reeks Shit does. Pound it bro.”


----------



## Seabeast2000

LordIronSpatula said:


> Kroasted, komplete with a big pyrographed "K" burnt into the back of the neck.
> 
> Maybe I should stop posting in this thread. I'm really not a Kiesel hater, I just think some of this stuff is hilarious...


i know man. I don't have a burning hatred but the material is indeed rich.


----------



## QuantumCybin

feraledge said:


> “Oh you thought I said ‘roasted maple’? BROASTED MAPLE, bro. Broasted. It’s like way tighter than that whack shit that Paul Reeks Shit does. Pound it bro.”



Boom, broasted.


----------



## Avedas

KnightBrolaire said:


> they don't have endorsements with anyone right now afaik. They both used to use ibanez and I think tim had a caparison for a while too.





couverdure said:


> Luke is endorsed by Ibanez and got two LACS RGAs last year as well as those Iron Label RGDs before that. Tim is (or was?) endorsed by ESP and used Caparisons before that, the Kiesel thing is very new to me.



Luke was playing Mayones last time I saw them in December 2016. I think it was a Duvell Elite. Or did I just dream that?


----------



## spudmunkey

feraledge said:


> “Oh you thought I said ‘roasted maple’? BROASTED MAPLE, bro. Broasted. It’s like way tighter than that whack shit that Paul Reeks Shit does. Pound it bro.”



Broasting is a cooking method, though. Think: deep fryer meets pressure cooker.


----------



## couverdure

Avedas said:


> Luke was playing Mayones last time I saw them in December 2016. I think it was a Duvell Elite. Or did I just dream that?


He received his LACS guitars around January of 2017 so I'm sure he got them after that show happened. Here are some pictures. As of late, he's been playing an Antique White Blonde RG652AHM live.

Also some of the recent pics I found in their Instagram has Tim playing those Padalka guitars live. I'll have to wait for them to update their page so I could see what his Kiesels look like.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

couverdure said:


> He received his LACS guitars around January of 2017 so I'm sure he got them after that show happened. Here are some pictures. As of late, he's been playing an Antique White Blonde RG652AHM live.
> 
> Also some of the recent pics I found in their Instagram has Tim playing those Padalka guitars live. I'll have to wait for them to update their page so I could see what his Kiesels look like.



good thing they aren't with kiesel though, because we'd have to listen to He who whiffs his own diarrhea expecting flowers bragging endlessly about how he's taking artists from other companies.


----------



## A-Branger

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Not in Western markets, maybe...
> 
> http://www.schoolmusic.co.kr/Shop/index.php3?var=Good&Good_no=30640&version=pc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Korean brand, MIC. The price comes out to about $345 US.)



"new" meaning for a well known guitar brand,a t this point someone has invented everything out there

but wow that looks fricking cool, and that cheap???????? the GAS is strong!!



Hollowway said:


> Wow, that’s cool! If you told me that cost $2000 I’d believe it.
> 
> And, it should be pointed out, the new Kiesel is NOT an acoustic. It’s a semi hollow with a round hole in it. Chris Hong mentioned it’s a little thinner than the AC175. The AC375 is the “true” acoustic (and a pretty cool instrument, by the looks and specs).





spudmunkey said:


> This. It'll be louder than, say, a Strat, but probably still quieter than a Martin Backpacker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the AC375's are really cool. I play mine more than my $4K taylor, just because it's more compact for couch noodling.



yeah, I jumped on facebook and saw the un-pluged video of it, reaaaaally thin-can sounding guitar. Also confirmed by the live feed of Jeff. This new acoustic, or semi-hollow, it has the same body depth than the electric headless, its the exact same body. I though they might have a ticker boddy or something to get more volume, but according to Jeff they tried with a bigger body depth and aparently it didnt help for the overall volume of the guitar........ not 100% if believe that, when now they could use the exact body dimesions with small mods to CNC the body.... or maybe the acoustic sound comes also from a bigger body, not so much from a ticker one? since the body size is the same too, so a tinny electric guitar size?? donno, the only thing they changed was the top tickness to match acoustic guitar standards.

but yeah its an "acoustic" guitar for stages, meant to be played plugged in, no more loud than say the LTD thinLine or something like that. Still pretty cool for those ppl who only play pop acoustic covers in bars and whatnot


----------



## Lemons

Arrgghhhhh I already have GAS for a Zues multi-8 and now they release a travel sized acoustic?!?! Unfortunately count me in with all the people who don't want to give Kiesel money at this point.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

A-Branger said:


> "new" meaning for a well known guitar brand,a t this point someone has invented everything out there



Nothing in my post or in the part of your post I quoted said anything about "new," so I'm not sure where you're coming from here. You said it's a niche no brand has tried yet, I showed you one that did. Nobody said anything about "new."


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I think this thread needs more cancer. Like Cancebolaids level terminal kinda stuff


----------



## KnightBrolaire

jeff is like if guy fieri had an affinity for cholo socks, wayne static facial hair and the vocabulary of a 90s california skater bro. 
there, I contributed to the shitheap that this thread has become.


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> jeff is like if guy fieri had an affinity for cholo socks, wayne static facial hair and the vocabulary of a 90s california skater bro.
> there, I contributed to the shitheap that this thread has become.


Finally.


----------



## A-Branger

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Nothing in my post or in the part of your post I quoted said anything about "new," so I'm not sure where you're coming from here. You said it's a niche no brand has tried yet, I showed you one that did. Nobody said anything about "new."


wasnt having a go at you. missread on words

all good bro <3


----------



## strangers

I would like to post something in response to the running theme of hit or miss experience with buying Kiesel, especially wrt getting a dud, and Kiesel's response to it. I may make a separate thread with more detail later on, but for what its worth...

Around the new year I ordered a couple of guitars, and one was a Kiesel K series (with a few option 50's). I got the Kiesel on time, but they had set the FR about 1-2/32" off in the direction of the high e. I called, talked to Mike then Albert, and had a pretty good experience. Albert asked me for some pictures, and got back to me like 10 minutes later, and recommended I send the guitar back for work. No issues with communicating with them, they seemed to care about getting it resolved, and their in day communication was really good.

They have had the guitar for a month, and I should get it back next week. A month seems a little excessive for this kind of fix, but whatever, they are busy and I'm still getting the guitar within 4 months including 3 separate TN/CA shipments, New Years and NAMM. I'm pretty happy with the customer service. It could be better, definitely. I think Kiesel could hire a few more people, and maybe work on their Manufacturer to customer communication. While the people I talked to were happy to help me out, they don't have a systematic way of letting customers know what's going on, and a lot of that could be done automatically with some pretty light code, and a little extra work on the part of employees. Jeff seems to be annoyed with the frequency that he gets calls asking for status on a guitar, and I can see his end of it, but I feel like they could get around this for a pretty low cost, and end up with happier staff and customers.

Hopefully next week I get the guitar back and there are no more issues, but so far I'm pretty satisfied with my experience and would buy again.


----------



## bostjan

strangers said:


> I would like to post something in response to the running theme of hit or miss experience with buying Kiesel, especially wrt getting a dud, and Kiesel's response to it. I may make a separate thread with more detail later on, but for what its worth...
> 
> Around the new year I ordered a couple of guitars, and one was a Kiesel K series (with a few option 50's). I got the Kiesel on time, but they had set the FR about 1-2/32" off in the direction of the high e. I called, talked to Mike then Albert, and had a pretty good experience. Albert asked me for some pictures, and got back to me like 10 minutes later, and recommended I send the guitar back for work. No issues with communicating with them, they seemed to care about getting it resolved, and their in day communication was really good.
> 
> They have had the guitar for a month, and I should get it back next week. A month seems a little excessive for this kind of fix, but whatever, they are busy and I'm still getting the guitar within 4 months including 3 separate TN/CA shipments, New Years and NAMM. I'm pretty happy with the customer service. It could be better, definitely. I think Kiesel could hire a few more people, and maybe work on their Manufacturer to customer communication. While the people I talked to were happy to help me out, they don't have a systematic way of letting customers know what's going on, and a lot of that could be done automatically with some pretty light code, and a little extra work on the part of employees. Jeff seems to be annoyed with the frequency that he gets calls asking for status on a guitar, and I can see his end of it, but I feel like they could get around this for a pretty low cost, and end up with happier staff and customers.
> 
> Hopefully next week I get the guitar back and there are no more issues, but so far I'm pretty satisfied with my experience and would buy again.



Sounds like it'll be a win, once you get the guitar back in good order, but if I were you, I would reserve judgement until that transpires, based on the company's track record the past ~2 years.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

My money’s on the bridge coming back beveled.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Haven't read the whole polava but why get involved with some half assed 'custom shop' that is potentially
gonna cream you? Fuck Dat.


----------



## strangers

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> My money’s on the bridge coming back beveled.



I had to pay extra for the bridge bevel, maybe I'll luck into a Kiesel broasted bridge (KBB) though.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

IbanezDaemon said:


> Haven't read the whole polava but why get involved with some half assed 'custom shop' that is potentially
> gonna cream you? Fuck Dat.



Because they're pretty fast, relatively cheap, and don't have _that bad_ of a track record. 

Obviously the first two are the most important factors.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because they're pretty fast, relatively cheap, and don't have _that bad_ of a track record.
> 
> Obviously the first two are the most important factors.



Not affordable anymore, with all those price hikes the past couple years.


----------



## spudmunkey

Some of us are just masochistic, too.


----------



## wannabguitarist

MatiasTolkki said:


> Not affordable anymore, with all those price hikes the past couple years.



Still quite cheap in the US. I played essentially this exact guitar a few weeks ago and would take it over other options at this price point 



And this is very cheap for a headless with a trem and some unnecessary cosmetic options:



Regardless if you like them or not that price point is great for a US made guitar. Anyone spending $3k on one of these is making a mistake. I haven't pulled the trigger on one due to the customer service horror stories, but I do love these guitars.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

IbanezDaemon said:


> Haven't read the whole polava but why get involved with some half assed 'custom shop' that is potentially
> gonna cream you?



Kiesel has this weird business model where, every month, ss.org regulars who have read every single “Kiesel fucked me” thread over the last four years push all that stuff out of mind and put another 20% deposit down on one of those asscheek-beveled, bukkake-burst, neon daymare-finished abominations that they apparently daydream of playing in front of their old high school lunchroom or something.

Then they resell it for a 40-60% loss the next month. Just go through the classifieds, bring up the user profile for every Kiesel listing, and check out their previous NGD threads. It’s all right there.

I may be labeled an edgelord for saying that some of these Kiesel orders suggest that cases of mental retardation go largely unreported in the United States - But I’m just trying to give these people an honest excuse.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I've said enough about my hate of those icepicks Jeff the flatulence connoisseur calls pickups. 

headless guitars suck. I couldn't care less about them.

Aries 6? ibanez RG550 I can get for cheaper, with usable pickups. 

so no, the prices are not as attractive as they used to be.



wannabguitarist said:


> Still quite cheap in the US. I played essentially this exact guitar a few weeks ago and would take it over other options at this price point
> View attachment 60417
> 
> 
> And this is very cheap for a headless with a trem and some unnecessary cosmetic options:
> View attachment 60418
> 
> 
> Regardless if you like them or not that price point is great for a US made guitar. Anyone spending $3k on one of these is making a mistake. I haven't pulled the trigger on one due to the customer service horror stories, but I do love these guitars.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

goddamn that thing is ugly as hell. 



Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Kiesel has this weird business model where, every month, ss.org regulars who have read every single “Kiesel fucked me” thread over the last four years push all that stuff out of mind and put another 20% deposit down on one of those asscheek-beveled, bukkake-burst, neon daymare-finished abominations that they apparently daydream of playing in front of their old high school lunchroom or something.
> 
> Then they resell it for a 40-60% loss the next month. Just go through the classifieds, bring up the user profile for every Kiesel listing, and check out their previous NGD threads. It’s all right there.
> 
> I may be labeled an edgelord for saying that some of these Kiesel orders suggest that cases of mental retardation go largely unreported in the United States - But I’m just trying to give these people an honest excuse.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Kiesel has this weird business model where, every month, ss.org regulars who have read every single “Kiesel fucked me” thread over the last four years push all that stuff out of mind and put another 20% deposit down on one of those asscheek-beveled, bukkake-burst, neon daymare-finished abominations that they apparently daydream of playing in front of their old high school lunchroom or something.
> 
> Then they resell it for a 40-60% loss the next month. Just go through the classifieds, bring up the user profile for every Kiesel listing, and check out their previous NGD threads. It’s all right there.
> 
> I may be labeled an edgelord for saying that some of these Kiesel orders suggest that cases of mental retardation go largely unreported in the United States - But I’m just trying to give these people an honest excuse.


ALW, you are absolutely 100% correct, man. People are going to get their knickers in a twist over reading this comment, but they will eventually realize that you are correct. Kiesels just flat-out are not worth it. Due to the nature of the specs specifically picked out by the original owner (of course, not everyone wants those specs) along with marketplace oversaturation, sellers are going to have to accept taking larger and larger hits if they want to move their second-hand Kiesels.



Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


>


I see a mini guitar with stupid, nonsensical coloration on a mini guitar-shaped table.


----------



## MetalHead40

Definitely an affordable option and I'm sure the potential for a great guitar exists, but this thread was based on my experience which resulted in a potentially great guitar and wonderful customer service going horribly wrong. I'm not a hard guy to work with, I'm not someone with unrealistic or overly demanding expectations, but man when I tell you there was something fundamentally wrong with that guitar and that their customer service was so absurdly unprofessional, I mean it with the utmost honesty and sincerity.


----------



## oracles

Are we just gonna ignore how far beyond disgusting this abortion is? Could've been yours for the low low price of $3500, your self worth and dignity.


----------



## wannabguitarist

Do people actually consider the resale value of instruments when they purchase them? Seems a little ridiculous to think about honestly if you plan on actually using the instrument 



MatiasTolkki said:


> I've said enough about my hate of those icepicks Jeff the flatulence connoisseur calls pickups.
> 
> headless guitars suck. I couldn't care less about them.
> 
> Aries 6? ibanez RG550 I can get for cheaper, with usable pickups.
> 
> *so no, the prices are not as attractive as they used to be*.



Sure the prices are not as attractive as they used to be to you, but that's a totally different assertion than "they're not affordable anymore," which is what you originally said.

I think the stock RG550 pickups are awful (and I actually like the Lithiums, well they're usable for me at least), but I wouldn't call the guitar unaffordable, useless, or awful because I don't like the pickups. Not liking headless guitars has nothing to do with what you said either. There are plenty of reasons to dislike the company, but there seems to be a huge disconnect between some of your claims and reality . I'd buy one of the new RG550s before ordering that DC127 I specced out, not because I think it's a better guitar (I actually prefer how the Kiesel feels and plays), but because I don't have to deal with Kiesel.


----------



## Science_Penguin

oracles said:


> Are we just gonna ignore how far beyond disgusting this abortion is? Could've been yours for the low low price of $3500, your self worth and dignity.



Now, is this a Jeff Kiesel original or something a customer ordered?


----------



## oracles

Science_Penguin said:


> Now, is this a Jeff Kiesel original or something a customer ordered?



The Instagram wording leads me to believe it's a Jeff original. Every time I think he cant build something uglier, tackier, or more worthy to be thrown into a grease fire, he pulls something together that's worse than downing a gallon of water from a faucet in Flint, Michigan.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

the vomit on the floor from when I puked 2 weeks ago looked better than this. yuck.



oracles said:


> Are we just gonna ignore how far beyond disgusting this abortion is? Could've been yours for the low low price of $3500, your self worth and dignity.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

This guy seriously picks the best tops to ruin.


----------



## feraledge

Objectively speaking, crackles are the proper way to 80s up. Gnarly velour mismatch themes are not. Sorry folks, it's just science.


----------



## feraledge

oracles said:


> Are we just gonna ignore how far beyond disgusting this abortion is? Could've been yours for the low low price of $3500, your self worth and dignity.


"Every portrait that is painted with feeling is a portrait of the artist, not the sitter." - Oscar Wilde. 

Deep, deep down, in the bottom of his soul, Jeff is one ugly, twisted bro, bro.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

It's weird, when you look at jeff's personal builds, he doesn't have bad taste. The second he gets to work and starts building "showcase" pieces he starts churning out hideous monstrosities. He's like the dr jekyll and mr hyde of bad taste. I think all those years of making aesthetically pleasing finishes under his dad has bored him into thinking that ugly shit is where it's at


----------



## MetalHead40

Man I created this thread to tell my story as an example of what could go wrong when working with this company. A buyer beware statement so to speak so others could make informed decisions. I'll be honest and say that hearing others chime in during the first dozen pages with as much, or greater, disregard for the company as I had gave me some sense of satisfaction, but I've gotta say this thing has gone to whole different level.


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's weird, when you look at jeff's personal builds, he doesn't have bad taste. The second he gets to work and starts building "showcase" pieces he starts churning out hideous monstrosities. He's like the dr jekyll and mr hyde of bad taste. I think all those years of making aesthetically pleasing finishes under his dad has bored him into thinking that ugly shit is where it's at



Ed Roman is dead, long live Ed Roman.


----------



## diagrammatiks

this thread is so long I forgot what it's about and want to buy some kiesels now.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> Man I created this thread to tell my story as an example of what could go wrong when working with this company. A buyer beware statement so to speak so others could make informed decisions. I'll be honest and say that hearing others chime in during the first dozen pages with as much, or greater, disregard for the company as I had gave me some sense of satisfaction, but I've gotta say this thing has gone to whole different level.



Jeff caused it to go to a whole different level, that's not on you bro


----------



## Seabeast2000

diagrammatiks said:


> this thread is so long I forgot what it's about and want to buy some kiesels now.


Remember your steps and call your sponsor!


----------



## Avedas

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Kiesel has this weird business model where, every month, ss.org regulars who have read every single “Kiesel fucked me” thread over the last four years push all that stuff out of mind and put another 20% deposit down on one of those asscheek-beveled, bukkake-burst, neon daymare-finished abominations that they apparently daydream of playing in front of their old high school lunchroom or something.
> 
> Then they resell it for a 40-60% loss the next month. Just go through the classifieds, bring up the user profile for every Kiesel listing, and check out their previous NGD threads. It’s all right there.
> 
> I may be labeled an edgelord for saying that some of these Kiesel orders suggest that cases of mental retardation go largely unreported in the United States - But I’m just trying to give these people an honest excuse.


This thing reminds me of when I was a kid trying to pick out cool color combos for my rollercoasters in Rollercoaster Tycoon.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Avedas said:


> This thing reminds me of when I was a kid trying to pick out cool color combos for my rollercoasters in Rollercoaster Tycoon.


----------



## cwhitey2

MatiasTolkki said:


> Jeff caused it to go to a whole different *bevel*, that's not on you bro



Fixed.


----------



## xzacx

wannabguitarist said:


> Do people actually consider the resale value of instruments when they purchase them? Seems a little ridiculous to think about honestly if you plan on actually using the instrument



I agree with you in theory, but when you're buying something without ever having played it (be it a custom build, or just anything you're buying online), I think it's a reasonable consideration, _especially_ if you plan on actually playing it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cwhitey2 said:


> Fixed.


 
that's definitely a great correction


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

oracles said:


> Are we just gonna ignore how far beyond disgusting this abortion is? Could've been yours for the low low price of $3500, your self worth and dignity.



I made a new meme.


----------



## Zado

Someone puked on concrete


----------



## Seabeast2000

Zado said:


> Someone puked on concrete



Finish- "Stabilized Gaudy Shithouse"- $800


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's weird, when you look at jeff's personal builds, he doesn't have bad taste.



I mean...yes, and no. His Honeyburst CS? Terrific. His Arctic K series? Ehhh...not my taste, but OK. His first Vader? Probably one of the ugliest guitars they've built.


----------



## cwhitey2

spudmunkey said:


> I mean...yes, and no. His Honeyburst CS? Terrific. His Arctic K series? Ehhh...not my taste, but OK. His first Vader? Probably one of the ugliest guitars they've built.


He must pick scrap woods/left overs that customers don't want and just mash them together.

Who on earth would actually custom order that, it's piss 'fade' for Pete's sake


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Holy shit  



Emperor Guillotine said:


> I made a new meme.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I think that Aries above wins as ugliest guitar ever made  



spudmunkey said:


> I mean...yes, and no. His Honeyburst CS? Terrific. His Arctic K series? Ehhh...not my taste, but OK. His first Vader? Probably one of the ugliest guitars they've built.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> I mean...yes, and no. His Honeyburst CS? Terrific. His Arctic K series? Ehhh...not my taste, but OK. His first Vader? Probably one of the ugliest guitars they've built.


i was more referencing his other personal builds, some of them are over the top but I love the koa one.


----------



## oracles

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's weird, when you look at jeff's personal builds, he doesn't have bad taste.



I'm not entirely sure he's coming up with some of these atrocities unaided. Part of me thinks he's throwing darts at a spinning wheel and that's how the specs are decided for some of these monstrosities.


----------



## Albake21

oracles said:


> I'm not entirely sure he's coming up with some of these atrocities unaided. Part of me thinks he's throwing darts at a spinning wheel and that's how the specs are decided for some of these monstrosities.


I wouldn't doubt it. Plus like I've said before, he can make literally what ever he wants. He's like a kid in a candy factory and personally if I had access to make any guitar I wanted, I'd be making these crazy combinations too.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

oracles said:


> I'm not entirely sure he's coming up with some of these atrocities unaided. Part of me thinks he's throwing darts at a spinning wheel and that's how the specs are decided for some of these monstrosities.


I was thinking it was more like he puts a bunch of ideas in a hat and pulls some at random. "OOOH SPARKLE ORANGE WITH A TRANSBLUE"


----------



## Seabeast2000

Albake21 said:


> I wouldn't doubt it. Plus like I've said before, he can make literally what ever he wants. He's like a kid in a candy factory and personally if I had access to make any guitar I wanted, I'd be making these crazy combinations too.


Totally agree, and he pins them up for the world's stage, which is fun.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

MetalHead40 said:


> Man I created this thread to tell my story as an example of what could go wrong when working with this company. A buyer beware statement so to speak so others could make informed decisions. I'll be honest and say that hearing others chime in during the first dozen pages with as much, or greater, disregard for the company as I had gave me some sense of satisfaction, but I've gotta say this thing has gone to whole different level.



It’s more or less just a let’s shit on kiesel thread now. 

Your original post had purpose. Now it’s just hate. 

It is super entertaining now though


----------



## Jonathan20022

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> It’s more or less just a let’s shit on kiesel thread now.
> 
> Your original post had purpose. Now it’s just hate.
> 
> It is super entertaining now though



There is PLENTY of valid discussion on legitimate shortcomings of Kiesel, but this is going to happen it's a discussion forum and the people here have a sense of humor so they'll pick at Kiesel whenever they get the chance. I'd wager we could fill a good 20 page thread with only stories from customers who have personally bought and been involved with a bad experience. And that's quite a bit of real world negative experiences.


----------



## cwhitey2

MatiasTolkki said:


> that's definitely a great correction


They made it tooo easy!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The thing thats so upsetting about Jeff screwing things up so badly is that the old 22 pole piece pups are absolute beast pickups and sound incredible...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cwhitey2 said:


> They made it tooo easy!



 True dat.


----------



## Vyn

Taking the automotive industry as an example, a new car will automatically loose 30% value just by leaving the showroom, and that's assuming it has minimal miles and is in flawless condition still. People shouldn't be surprised that they have to drop the price of their custom by 40%-60% to move it.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> The thing thats so upsetting about Jeff screwing things up so badly is that the old 22 pole piece pups are absolute beast pickups and sound incredible...


I sold mine. They have a very annoying high mid peak that just gets on my nerves. Still have the neck humbucker if you're looking


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Vyn said:


> Taking the automotive industry as an example, a new car will automatically loose 30% value just by leaving the showroom, and that's assuming it has minimal miles and is in flawless condition still. People shouldn't be surprised that they have to drop the price of their custom by 40%-60% to move it.



This is how it always was. 

Used Carvins were the best bargain in the whole industry. Folks used to have to beg to get over $650 for decently spec'd DC7x7s.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> I sold mine. They have a very annoying high mid peak that just gets on my nerves. Still have the neck humbucker if you're looking



not the m series, but I've heard that said about the C series,w


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> not the m series, but I've heard that said about the C series,w


Which ever came in the JB200. The M22's right?


----------



## Cynicanal

Yeah, that's the M22s.

They do have a high-mid peak (or at least a scooped low-midrange; also, lots of treble, so I don't think it's quite a "peak" per-se like the JB), but that's what makes them work well, at least IMO. YMMV.


----------



## Vyn

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is how it always was.
> 
> Used Carvins were the best bargain in the whole industry. Folks used to have to beg to get over $650 for decently spec'd DC7x7s.



I remember the sale threads a few years ago here loaded with DC727's that just sat there for stupid cheap money. The good old days haha.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> Which ever came in the JB200. The M22's right?



yeah, stock was M22SD-M22V. I love them actually, they cut through the mix amazingly.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Yeah, that's the M22s.
> 
> They do have a high-mid peak (or at least a scooped low-midrange; also, lots of treble, so I don't think it's quite a "peak" per-se like the JB), but that's what makes them work well, at least IMO. YMMV.



we agree on something


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> yeah, stock was M22SD-M22V. I love them actually, they cut through the mix amazingly.


They cut nicely but there is a specific high mid frequency that drives me f*cking mad. Eventually sold the bridge for £40 here.

Still got the neck though doubt I'll ever use it. 

So the JB is sitting there with no pickups and the whole Kiesel debacle just puts a sour taste in my mouth about it. Shame really.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> They cut nicely but there is a specific high mid frequency that drives me f*cking mad. Eventually sold the bridge for £40 here.
> 
> Still got the neck though doubt I'll ever use it.
> 
> So the JB is sitting there with no pickups and the whole Kiesel debacle just puts a sour taste in my mouth about it. Shame really.



thats too bad. I do understand though. i can stand duncans because of a specific frequency just drives me crazy.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> thats too bad. I do understand though. i can stand duncans because of a specific frequency just drives me crazy.



Dimarzio's also have a fizzy frequency though I can deal with them a bit better. Mojotone Tomahawks almost had me perfect tone in that but I just didn't like the feel. 

I'll probably stick a Perpetual burn in there eventually, with a PAF pro or some Duncan.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MetalHead40 said:


> Man I created this thread to tell my story as an example of what could go wrong when working with this company. A buyer beware statement so to speak so others could make informed decisions. I'll be honest and say that hearing others chime in during the first dozen pages with as much, or greater, disregard for the company as I had gave me some sense of satisfaction, but I've gotta say this thing has gone to whole different level.



If you wanted to do something useful, the links to photos in the first post are all dead.

Can you re-upload/re-host?


----------



## spudmunkey

Or just pay Photobucket the $720 per year (up from $400 a few weeks ago) to allow 3rd party hosting.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> Or just pay Photobucket the $720 per year (up from $400 a few weeks ago) to allow 3rd party hosting.



We need a "Photobucket....never again" thread. That company can't go away fast enough, given how out of touch they are with the internet and people in general.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Just upload a damn file and attach it to your post.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Hollowway said:


> We need a "Photobucket....never again" thread. That company can't go away fast enough, given how out of touch they are with the internet and people in general.



Day after day, I see posters registered since 2007 fail to post imgur-embeds, then immediately copy-paste the same IMG code into a subsequent post as a “do-over.”

Hoping for the same learning curve to move on from Photobucket is like shitting into your one hand before you even start to wish the other fills up first. Jeff Kiesel will shave the dingleberries from his face before that day comes.


----------



## cip 123

Tip - facebook is very easy to host on. I usually add photos as private/"only me" and just use the url here. Facebook isn't going anywhere fast.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

That should be their motto.


----------



## cip 123

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> That should be their motto.



It's either Facebooks or the US Governments...

But I mean when was the last time Facebook shut down cause they couldn't make a decision about whats best for the country?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> It's either Facebooks or the US Governments...
> 
> But I mean when was the last time Facebook shut down cause they couldn't make a decision about whats best for the country?



Never know, for all the BS Ted Cruz says, he REALLY wrecked Mr. Roboto last week, and the US government COULD jump in and really do lots of damage to Failbook.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> Never know, for all the BS Ted Cruz says, he REALLY wrecked Mr. Roboto last week, and the US government COULD jump in and really do lots of damage to Failbook.




At the risk of derailing this thread I will comment on this. No they didn't. They asked questions which fell flat repeatedly, asking questions in which Zuckerbergs response was simply "you can already do that". They're opening statement asked him if he would like to disclose the hotel he was staying at...You can do that on Facebook IF YOU WANT TO it literally has a location post button it's not a case of "Oh facebook know my location" your phone/laptop/tablet knows your location and you permit it to disclose this with every site you're on. Facebook allows you to post it publicly or not of your own choice.

If you use facebook and are surprised by targeted ads and that they have information you're simply a moron. If you sign up for a site where you literally dump your personal information in to it and are upset by them having your information you really have no leg to stand on. 

The questions they asked were so dull you could tell no one is going to do a damn thing. Even questions such as "Should there be a law to protect children under 15 from online predators?" Facebook already has stuff to protect kids, it's up to parents and schools to teach kids about staying safe online, not Zuckerbergs. 


(I really don't want to derail the thread, but basically no one did anything to Facebook last week, in fact their stock rose 5%, and if anyone should be getting debated it should be companies like Equifax who lost around 150 million peoples social security numbers. Thats a bit worse than a 3rd party manipulating/lying about advertising and information Facebook)


To bring this back loosely to the thread, look at the amount of advertising for massive US companies and companies such as Kiesel, Facebook has become such an integrated part of every companies marketing strategy that taking it away or hindering it in anyway could have massive implications for sales of businesses like Kiesel. It also hinders stories like this of bad customer service/shitty builds which puts us in the dark. Facebook isn't going anywhere, and it literally can't it's ingrained in society now.


----------



## feraledge

^ I’m just gonna pop in this AOL CDROM, fire up the modem and Ask Jeeves about that.


----------



## cip 123

feraledge said:


> ^ I’m just gonna pop in this AOL CDROM, fire up the modem and Ask Jeeves about that.


Jeeves plays Kiesel.


----------



## Flappydoodle

spudmunkey said:


> Or just pay Photobucket the $720 per year (up from $400 a few weeks ago) to allow 3rd party hosting.



Or upload to imgur and paste a link

Or upload to SSO's own image handling

No idea why Photobucket still exists. I hadn't seen it for 5 years until I started reading this site, lol


----------



## spudmunkey

Flappydoodle said:


> No idea why Photobucket still exists. I hadn't seen it for 5 years until I started reading this site, lol



I have years and years worth of 14,000 images on Photobucket. I started using imgur the past few years, because the Photobucket website has devolved into a huge garbage fire, but suddenly every image I've embedded in posts all over the internet for almost a decade is now a broken link. That's the only reason I haven't completely shut down my account...the slim chance that those links will go live again someday....but I know that's wishful thinking, and I should just shut it down.


----------



## Avedas

Outside SSO, I don't think I've seen Photobucket used since the previous decade.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

spudmunkey said:


> suddenly every image I've embedded in posts all over the internet for almost a decade is now a broken link.



its really disappointing to see nearly every NGD on this and other guitar forums have the ? box for images.


----------



## feraledge

Lorcan Ward said:


> its really disappointing to see nearly every NGD on this and other guitar forums have the ? box for images.


My silent protest of this refusal to find a functional host is to withhold likes. That'll teach em!


----------



## spudmunkey

Most have moved on to others, including myself. But there's still the legacy of, for me anyway, a legacy of a decade plus, of 1000's of images already there, and already hot-linked-to.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, one of the people on here turned me on to mixtape moe. It’s super low key, made in someone’s basement on a zero-dollar budget, and totally reminds me of being a kid on the Internet, so I love it. Photobucket was cool and slick, but obviously has too many bills to pay.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, one of the people on here turned me on to mixtape moe. It’s super low key, made in someone’s basement on a zero-dollar budget, and totally reminds me of being a kid on the Internet, so I love it. Photobucket was cool and slick, but obviously has too many bills to pay.



For a long-term solution, this makes me nervous:


> *We currently do not have enough to pay for servers this month.* To donate, go to our Donate page.


----------



## Vhyle

I use Lensdump for all of my image hosting now, with my business shots and whatnot. It's free, works very well, and pretty streamlined. 

I still have a Photobucket account going, but I should probably just take everything off of it and get rid of it. It's practically useless now.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I use cubeupload, works fine


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> For a long-term solution, this makes me nervous:



Yeah, agreed. It’s SO diy in the basement with a couple of friends, it’s liable to disappear at any point. It’s endearingly so, but probably not a good long term thing. Oddly, I have no idea wtf photobucket was thinking with that decision. It’s such an astronomical price you’d think Shkreli suddenly took ownership of it.


----------



## strangers

I got my Kiesel back the other day, and have had some time to go over it.

The bridge is fixed, and there are no issues with the guitar. So my experience is pretty far from OP and a lot of the other negative reviews that bash Kiesel's customer service. I mostly wanted to post because it seems likely to me that there is a much greater motivation to say you bought an expensive guitar and weren't happy with the quality control or customer service. It definitely should be this way, since messing up an order, or worse your customer service in the aftermath, carries a lot more weight than getting it right.

I don't know what the norm is, or if Kiesel has taken some of the negative online reviews to heart. For me though, I dealt with the same people, and had a much different experience. I got a guitar I really like, for a price I'm happy with. They screwed up in QC and shipped me a guitar with a messed up bridge, and Albert suggested I send it back, fixed it, and got it back to me within a reasonable time period. So for people who are hesitant to buy based on Kiesel's CS record, it isn't all bad. I would be willing to bet the majority of people either have no issues in the first place, or get things fixed without issue. I doubt the perception of "roll the dice and get a good guitar or deal with terrible customer service" is fair, or at least significantly different than the many companies out there with negative reviews.

I think that its probably pretty likely that a lot of you have a severely distorted view of Kiesel, which starts from a dislike of their colors, bevels, or Jeff's personality. You start to hate the company because you hate the aesthetic or the owner, and then confirmation bias takes over whenever you read a negative review, even though at least a significant portion of the negative reviews probably distort reality as a result of the reviewer's perspective on the whole thing. I'm not trying to write off OP or some of the other commentor's in this thread, but realistically at least some of the bad reviews are a slanted version of the truth.

Also, the bridge did not come back with a bevel or a baked Kiesel bridge treatment to my great dissapointment.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

i have always said that chris and mike have been cool dudes with me. Never a problem. as for QC, yes both my JB200 and V220 came with issues but nothing i could do because of being in Japan. took the JB to a local place to deal with the issue. V220 nothing i can do unless they wanna mix me a vile of KRO and ship it to me. 

and yes Jeffs personality IS an issue, when he bashes other brands openly like the bitch he is. If you're the face of a company and doing that shit openly, you're unprofessional and don't deserve people's business, no matter how good the product is.


----------



## strangers

I don't really know that any company deserves people's business, but I can see where you are coming from. Very rarely do I decide to buy something based on anything other than the cost/value tradeoff of the thing.

I catch some of his livestream stuff from time to time and don't fault you for your opinion of him. While his comments are often eyeroll inducing for me, it has pretty much no impact on whether or not I am going to buy their guitars. He's decided to make himself a large part of their advertising though, and I think turning people like you off to them is part of the cost of that decision.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

strangers said:


> I don't really know that any company deserves people's business, but I can see where you are coming from. Very rarely do I decide to buy something based on anything other than the cost/value tradeoff of the thing.
> 
> I catch some of his livestream stuff from time to time and don't fault you for your opinion of him. While his comments are often eyeroll inducing for me, it has pretty much no impact on whether or not I am going to buy their guitars. He's decided to make himself a large part of their advertising though, and I think turning people like you off to them is part of the cost of that decision.



See, the problem is that when I first got into Carvin guitars, he wasnt as idiotic as he is today. I also saw the chance to have something different than all the Ibanezes I had had previously. The JB200 in deep purple flame just called out to me. I saved up for a long time to pay cash outright for it. Back then they still had dealers and I had to go through a LOT of crap just to get it. Chris and Mike were godsends and helped me out SOOOOO much with dealing with that dumb dealer. I still love those guys, because they've always done right by me. 

A little side note, I know that Mike has caught the ire of some people and I get that and I understand that not everyone is going to catch a sales rep on a good day or whatever. I can be a total ass at times too so I get that I can rub people the wrong way at times without noticing. I wont deny people's experiences at all in that sense because everyone has dealt with different things.

Back on topic though, as mentioned 20 pages ago or something, I was VERY pro-Carvin/Kiesel for a good long while. I did EVERYTHING I could to promote the brand to people over here in Japan (even offering to be the go-between because of the language barrier in some cases, which led to my friend getting a DC600 with the vader bevels). I was tooting the horn and trying to promote them over ESP, which has a goddamn stranglehold on the Japanese market. Jeff's bashing of the country I call home and actually have some bit of love for (i'm not really a patriotic person, but I do love my life in Japan and I feel this is the place where I belong) REALLY got me going because it was a direct attack on something I care for. Had he been like, "These are the best guitars made in America" and left it at that, I wouldn't have gone after him so directly and publicly, but his whole crap of, "You know, all those 'Asian' guitar companies just copy me blah blah blah" making Japan seem like a second rate guitar producing country (which I know most people, whether they like ESP, Ibanez, Caparison, etc all would call bullshit on) in the same league as Chinese and Indonesian crap... that just got me riled up. Then his whole backtracking of "Well I own a Toyota Tundra so I like Japanese-made things!" was so goddamn disingenuous (because Toyota has factories in the US to produce the cars there, so they aren't really MIJ) that I couldn't stand it anymore. Some people think I took it too personally; well, when someone calls your wife a slutty ass bitch, you don't back down, you pop em in the mouth and tell em to STFU.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

strangers said:


> Also, the bridge did not come back with a bevel or a baked Kiesel bridge treatment to my great dissapointment.






MatiasTolkki said:


> and yes Jeff's personality IS an issue


Winning comment. Should've left it at just that.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I've owned 3 kiesels and a carvin (one of the kiesels got sold, still have all the rest). They're still some of my favorite guitars that I own. I bought my first vader 2 years ago, and it came out great with no issues, and it's higher quality than any of the boden OS8s I owned (which were the same price I paid for my vader).
Kiesel can make great guitars -but their CS leaves a lot to be desired. Especially when we're talking about the infamous cloudburst colormatch and their peculiar habit of banning long time customers (ie johnathan and some others who've spent thousands and thousands on their guitars). Yes we make fun of their terrible aesthetic choices, but what do you expect from a bunch of gear nerds on a guitar forum? We also make fun of other terrible looking guitars all the time too. Jeff gets made fun of because he runs his mouth too much and has straight up copied PRS finishes and then acted like he came up with them. That kind of douchebaggery is exactly what Ed Roman used to do.
When other guitar companies fuck up they're better at rectifying the situation. Skervesen did a complete rebuild for a customer because he was unhappy with his guitar. Ormsby sent a replacement guitar to a guy who had his guitar destroyed by his ex wife at no charge. Strandberg sent out free teflon washers to anyone with an older boden that didn't already have them. They've also sent out hardware to people who lose pieces. Things like that engender a lot of good will. Kiesel has been losing their good will around here for years specifically because of the crap they've pulled with some users.


----------



## sylcfh

So, is it still a pain to put aftermarket pickups in their newer models?


----------



## Cynicanal

They switched to standard sized routes when they introduced the S22 series.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

sylcfh said:


> So, is it still a pain to put aftermarket pickups in their newer models?


 I think for any normally routed guitars (ie doesn't require specially slanted pickups) they'll install aftermarket pickups for you. Not sure about the multiscales but I would assume they'd still do it, provided you have the right slanting of the pickups. best bet is to call them.


----------



## spudmunkey

Cynicanal said:


> They switched to standard sized routes when they introduced the S22 series.



Before and even after that, the tricky routes were still the 7 and 8-string models though, because they weren't routed large enough for covered pickups like the 6-string models were. They seem to have "fixed" that issue (the issue being that they made their routes very snug around their own proprietary-sized pickups) a few years ago, and especially seems to be not much issue once they launched their Lithium line. Now with the introduction of the covered 7-string pickups, all of their 7-string routes will be more "square" and roomy around the pickup itself, so if there's any fitment issues it'll come from unusually-large side ears/tabs, or perhaps an unusual wire attachment on the pickup base. The 8-string pickups continue on with the "tight around the pickups" routes from what i understand, but it's to their "lithium" pickups, which are pretty much industry standard, so they should fit most anything except a few over-sized outliers.



KnightBrolaire said:


> I think for any normally routed guitars (ie doesn't require specially slanted pickups) they'll install aftermarket pickups for you. Not sure about the multiscales but I would assume they'd still do it, provided you have the right slanting of the pickups. best bet is to call them.



They will install aftermarket pickups. They do charge $50, though (to receive, track and make sure they understand the wiring since many manufacturers use different wire colors, etc), they don't still send the standard pickups, and it also means waiving the 10-day trial on the guitar. The best bet is still to get the guitar with the standard pickups, and do (or pay for) a swap, and then sell the pickups, or keep 'em as spares.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Skervesen did a complete rebuild for a customer because he was unhappy with his guitar.



Keisel is full of a bizarre range of stories. Someone's option 50 custom trans pink finish didn't come out they way he envisioned it in his head for his DC800. They actually reached out to him and offered a complete refinish, paying for freight to and from Hawaii. It looks kinda sorta like maybe an early version of their "Candy" finishes they've been offering lately, for like $400 or $600 now.
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-carvin-dc800-kelly-osborne-pink-2-judgement-pink.280341/

I just...I don't get it.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Keisel is full of a bizarre range of stories. Someone's option 50 custom trans pink finish didn't come out they way he envisioned it in his head for his DC800. They actually reached out to him and offered a complete refinish, paying for freight to and from Hawaii. It looks kinda sorta like maybe an early version of their "Candy" finishes they've been offering lately, for like $400 or $600 now.
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-carvin-dc800-kelly-osborne-pink-2-judgement-pink.280341/
> 
> I just...I don't get it.


I really prefer the original pink, the refinish looks like their cotton candy finish (which is nice, but not my taste). 
That was wayyyy before the cloudburst/oceanburst debacle on here though. Plus the OP in that thread admits that it took several months to get them to actually refinish it. With the skervesen rebuild I mentioned, they got in touch with him pretty quickly and offered to do a complete rebuild for no charge. Whole different ball game there. It's a shame kiesel doesn't do refinishes/rebuilds anymore as those are solid ways to engender good will/ensure customer loyalty


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Keisel is full of a bizarre range of stories. Someone's option 50 custom trans pink finish didn't come out they way he envisioned it in his head for his DC800. They actually reached out to him and offered a complete refinish, paying for freight to and from Hawaii. It looks kinda sorta like maybe an early version of their "Candy" finishes they've been offering lately, for like $400 or $600 now.
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-carvin-dc800-kelly-osborne-pink-2-judgement-pink.280341/
> 
> I just...I don't get it.



Hmm, was this Carvin or Kiesel? Just asking because I am understanding things went goofy after that fundamental transformation, but may be wrong.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

The906 said:


> Hmm, was this Carvin or Kiesel? Just asking because I am understanding things went goofy after that fundamental transformation, but may be wrong.


that would have been back when they were still carvin and still under jeff's dad iirc.


----------



## BigViolin

Totally different company.

I wonder how the family dinners go when the subject of customer service comes up.

Jeff: Like, ya know Dadbro we don't really need like repeat customers or to cater to the peeps who like have been loyal for years cuz I got my rad finishes and new designs like all over the innerwebs!

Mark: Rock on Juggalo!!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

get the popcorn out, kiesel banned a guy from their group for asking about why his bridge tuners were crooked/rubbing against each other on a brand new guitar.





the guitar with the janky tuners




the aforementioned janky tuners




another user talking to him about the banning/then another user got banned for calling out kiesel as shady.




another guy posted that his guitar has a crack in his zebrawood fretboard and got told it was a "wood vein" when he tried to get kiesel to deal with it.


----------



## Albake21

KnightBrolaire said:


> get the popcorn out, kiesel banned a guy from their group for asking about why his bridge tuners were crooked/rubbing against each other on a brand new guitar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the guitar with the janky tuners
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the aforementioned janky tuners
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another user talking to him about the banning/then another user got banned for calling out kiesel as shady.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another guy posted that his guitar has a crack in his zebrawood fretboard and got told it was a "wood vein" when he tried to get kiesel to deal with it.



It's just really sad. They make pretty solid guitars especially for the money. I just wish Jeff wasn't such a douche and their customer service was better.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Albake21 said:


> It's just really sad. They make pretty solid guitars especially for the money. I just wish Jeff wasn't such a douche and their customer service was better.


yeah, I really like their guitars, they're very solid. I stand by the quality of the kiesels that I own, but the way they treat customers as of late makes me not want to give them another penny.


----------



## iamaom

Maybe that dude should contact Hipshot and ask them for a replacement bridge? I don't think they want to be associated with a company that can't install their products properly, especially if its the customer's first time with a Hipshot product.


----------



## technomancer

Albake21 said:


> It's just really sad. They make pretty solid guitars especially for the money. I just wish Jeff wasn't such a douche and their customer service was better.



I can tell you for a fact the only reason I don't own several of their headless models is because of crap like the above two guitars. I like both the Zeus and Osiris and have priced them out a couple of times, but with crap like the above happening over and over there is no way I will buy one


----------



## KnightBrolaire

iamaom said:


> Maybe that dude should contact Hipshot and ask them for a replacement bridge? I don't think they want to be associated with a company that can't install their products properly, especially if its the customer's first time with a Hipshot product.


I'm not even sure what's wrong with the bridge. Either the holes through the baseplate were improperly drilled for the saddles by hipshot, or Kiesel's qc fucked something up. neither of my vaders have wonky spacing on the tuners like that


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm not even sure what's wrong with the bridge. Either the holes through the baseplate were improperly drilled for the saddles by hipshot, or Kiesel's qc fucked something up. neither of my vaders have wonky spacing on the tuners like that



It looks like the tuners on the bridge are actually bent


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> It looks like the tuners on the bridge are actually bent


so after playing around with my vader 8 string's tuners, there is a bit of side to side play with them. It's not enough side to side play to re-enact how janky that other guy's tuners look though.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I feel like we only catch about half of these.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

diagrammatiks said:


> I feel like we only catch about half of these.



That’s their motto!


----------



## Seabeast2000

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> That’s their motto!


Huge woidburned plank over Jeff's door.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

I just want to know whose knob I need to slob to have Kiesel wordfilter to Super Bevel Bros.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

#bevelking
#totallyradguitars


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah, I really like their guitars, they're very solid. I stand by the quality of the kiesels that I own, but the way they treat customers as of late makes me not want to give them another penny.



Same here bro, same here. Sad thing is, those M22SD/N pups are too amazing to give up on. I might need to order another set since I'm so happy with it in my RG550


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> #bevelking
> #totallyradguitars



#BevelJackass
#RadIsAnOldWordStopItYouDouche

I'm calling Jeff a douche, not you, just to be clear


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

You need to reconcile your hangups with Jeff Kiesel the way I did: Finding gay porn with a bottom who looks like him, then knocking out some baggage into the bottom of a Pringles can full of peanut butter. It’s far healthier in the long run.


----------



## feraledge

BigViolin said:


> Totally different company.
> 
> I wonder how the family dinners go when the subject of customer service comes up.
> 
> Jeff: Like, ya know Dadbro we don't really need like repeat customers or to cater to the peeps who like have been loyal for years cuz I got my rad finishes and new designs like all over the innerwebs!
> 
> Mark: Rock on Juggalo!!


Mark: See son, what if the customer service at this fine Hooters we're at was that negative. 

Jeff: Nah dawg, I can't get comped because my Mexicurly fries and Lotsa Tots are cold when I already busted a nut on 'em. Trust me, I tried bro. Buyer beware. Just tryin' to get some of mine. Go big or go home, right bro? Now let me get back to these Buffalo shrimp and see some tops I'd like to bevel, if you know what I mean, bro! Slam it! *Ball taps*


----------



## Jujex

It took me 99 pages to finally comment on this Train of consequences. I own an Aries 7 and absolutely love it. I had 7 strings for more than twice the cost that were just simply not as good. But this last issue... Shameful behaviour from him.

This is as if they can hide the truth. I mean your entire marketing plan is Facebook! You really think people won't know!?
If only he realized how far owning up to your mistakes would go with us guitarists, but no he chooses to go the other way.

FYI I have saved another deleted facebok conversation for refrence. The one where the cracked ebony board was returned from europe a couple of times.

I have been contemplating going with a K8 for a while but I think I will look elsewhere when the time comes. This is just getting ridiculous.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jujex said:


> It took me 99 pages to finally comment on this Train of consequences. I own an Aries 7 and absolutely love it. I had 7 strings for more than twice the cost that were just simply not as good. But this last issue... Shameful behaviour from him.
> 
> This is as if they can hide the truth. I mean your entire marketing plan is Facebook! You really think people won't know!?
> If only he realized how far owning up to your mistakes would go with us guitarists, but no he chooses to go the other way.
> 
> FYI I have saved another deleted facebok conversation for refrence. The one where the cracked ebony board was returned from europe a couple of times.
> 
> I have been contemplating going with a K8 for a while but I think I will look elsewhere when the time comes. This is just getting ridiculous.



I'd like to see that ebony board convo, really curious.


----------



## Veldar

MatiasTolkki said:


> I'd like to see that ebony board convo, really curious.



We live off the drama, please share it


----------



## cwhitey2

technomancer said:


> I can tell you for a fact the only reason I don't own several of their headless models is because of crap like the above two guitars. I like both the Zeus and Osiris and have priced them out a couple of times, but with crap like the above happening over and over there is no way I will buy one


I totally agree with you.

I want another dc127, but there is no way in hell I can give Jeff any of my hard earned money.


----------



## spudmunkey

In regards to the headless bridge knob issue (not that specific one, but the issue in general), Jeff mentioned it in his live video yesterday.

Apparently Hipshot was having issues with the manufacture of a part of the bridge, which caused the knob to be off-kilter, and would "wobble" side-to-side as it turned. Supposedly they used to have someone who would finish a part on a disc sander, who had the skill to do it...but now they have someone who isn't as skilled, and it effected the end product. They've now switched to doing it on a lathe for better and more consistent results.

In the video, he said that while the issue was Hipshot's "fault", that they absolutely should have caught it, and didn't, and apologized for that. He also said that if you had an effected unit, which was for just a short couple of week span, that they would either ship out the parts to you, or they would do the repair in the shop (I didn't catch if they would pay for the shipping each or even one of the ways). They also didn't say if there was a timeline, like if they needed to wait for corrected parts from Hipshot, or anything like that.

If someone needs this service, hopefully they can report on their experience.


----------



## spudmunkey

The906 said:


> Hmm, was this Carvin or Kiesel? Just asking because I am understanding things went goofy after that fundamental transformation, but may be wrong.





KnightBrolaire said:


> that would have been back when they were still carvin and still under jeff's dad iirc.



The finished guitar, which if I remember right was refinished by Jeff...I might be wrong on that though, was delivered 3 months before the announcement of the split, which I have to assume was in the works long before that...and at least 6mo to a year after they were already selling Jeff-designed models (the PB basses, and the SCB, if I remember correctly.)


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> In regards to the headless bridge knob issue (not that specific one, but the issue in general), Jeff mentioned it in his live video yesterday.
> 
> Apparently Hipshot was having issues with the manufacture of a part of the bridge, which caused the knob to be off-kilter, and would "wobble" side-to-side as it turned. Supposedly they used to have someone who would finish a part on a disc sander, who had the skill to do it...but now they have someone who isn't as skilled, and it effected the end product. They've now switched to doing it on a lathe for better and more consistent results.
> 
> In the video, he said that while the issue was Hipshot's "fault", that they absolutely should have caught it, and didn't, and apologized for that. He also said that if you had an effected unit, which was for just a short couple of week span, that they would either ship out the parts to you, or they would do the repair in the shop (I didn't catch if they would pay for the shipping each or even one of the ways). They also didn't say if there was a timeline, like if they needed to wait for corrected parts from Hipshot, or anything like that.
> 
> If someone needs this service, hopefully they can report on their experience.


whether it was hipshot's fault for the bridge being crooked or not, Kiesel absolutely should have caught it early on. It should never have made it onto a guitar if they knew that it was crooked.


----------



## spudmunkey

Indeed. In the ideal scenario, they should have caught it.

That leaves two remaining possible ways forward, since they didn't: The in-between scenario, is what he's spelled out in yesterday's video: a mea culpa, and they fix it. In the other scenario, the shit-show scenario, we have that specific customer's experience. I just don't get it. I've dated a schizophrenic, and it was less all-over-the-place.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the fact that more and more of these stories have been coming out of the woodwork over the last couple of years doesn't exactly build confidence in the brand. Their increasing prices are putting them in direct competition with far more reputable brands like suhr/aristides/mayones.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

OD guitars calling out kiesel for overcharging for their wood and acting like they get superior quality to other builders


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jeff seems like a total knob.


----------



## V_man

yeah one hundred pages great thread


----------



## Cynicanal

KnightBrolaire said:


> OD guitars calling out kiesel for overcharging for their wood and acting like they get superior quality to other builders



Claiming that Kiesel overcharges when his base prices are like ridiculously over-blinged Kiesel builds is kind of silly. "Hey, this brand that costs half as much as we do is too expensive"... uh, what does that say about you?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Cynicanal said:


> Claiming that Kiesel overcharges when his base prices are like ridiculously over-blinged Skervesen builds is kind of silly. "Hey, this brand that costs half as much as we do is too expensive"... uh, what does that say about you?


Ftfy
Also OD has a totally different size of shop/level of scale , he puts out like maybe 10 guitars a year, not 4000 or whatever kiesel puts out. It's unrealistic to think that a small builder is going to be building a completely custom guitar for 2k (unless they're just starting out or something).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> Claiming that Kiesel overcharges when his base prices are like ridiculously over-blinged Kiesel builds is kind of silly. "Hey, this brand that costs half as much as we do is too expensive"... uh, what does that say about you?



I don't think you're reading that right. 

He's not saying that Kiesel guitars are too expensive. I can't see how you could think he is. 

Jeff Kiesel makes a big show of how "special" and "exclusive" the woods he procures are, and Omer Deutsch is countering that with the fact they get wood from the same exact source. Since Deutsch buys from the same place and thus knows the costs of the materials he's saying that Kiesel seems to be inflating the price of certain wood options on the auspice they are something unique. 

That's all.


----------



## Cynicanal

I'm not saying OD's prices are necessarily "wrong" (I own a Bogner, I know all about paying more because the economy of scale isn't favoring a smaller company); I'm saying it's silly to call someone who offers a similar product at half the price "overpriced". If Reinhold took to social media and called Peavey overpriced, I'd think that was ridiculous too.

EDIT @MaxOfMetal-- he specifically says Kiesel overcharges in that FB post. The cost of adding a burl top to a $1000 guitar isn't the same adding a burl top to a $4000 guitar, the base price of the latter already has a lot of expected bling built into it, so you'd expect the upcharge to be larger on the former.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> I'm not saying OD's prices are necessarily "wrong" (I own a Bogner, I know all about paying more because the economy of scale isn't favoring a smaller company); I'm saying it's silly to call someone who offers a similar product at half the price "overpriced". If Reinhold took to social media and called Peavey overpriced, I'd think that was ridiculous too.
> 
> EDIT @MaxOfMetal-- he specifically says Kiesel overcharges in that FB post.



He claims Kiesel is overcharging for the wood options and upgrades, not once are completed guitars mentioned.

"keep saying that he is the only one who can get *tops* like he gets (I buy from the same suppliers as he does, and Jeff charges way more than he should for *it*)"

See?


----------



## Cynicanal

See my last edit. A straight comparison of option pricing that ignores base cost makes no sense.

EDIT -- if it helps to think about it this way, notice that on most OD models, a flame or quilt top is no more money. That doesn't mean you're getting a free upgrade, that means the cost of a flame/quilt top is baked into the base price.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> See my last edit. A straight comparison of option pricing that ignores base cost makes no sense.
> 
> EDIT -- if it helps to think about it this way, notice that on most OD models, a flame or quilt top is no more money. That doesn't mean you're getting a free upgrade, that means the cost of a flame/quilt top is baked into the base price.



If I order a $1 cheeseburger at McDonald's and ask for bacon on it, and they say it costs $10 to add bacon, and then go on about how special the bacon is in order to justify the price, I'm still being overcharged.

If I go to "fictitious fancy burger joint" and order a $15 burger, but it comes with bacon, am I being overchared for the bacon still?

Get it?

An OD is more expensive to make than a Kiesel, but since the price of wood is negligible they can offer it for less.

Or flip it around, why can't Kiesel offer the same wood for the reduced upgrade cost as OD?


----------



## Cynicanal

Kiesel can't offer the same low upcharge because they don't have as many upgrades factored into the base price*.

You'll note that upgraded tops are significantly cheaper on the K-series, which has a higher base price. I'm sure you can figure out why.

*(Kiesel's free $100 in options makes figuring out the "real price" of a top tricky, especially now that so many of the upgrades that everyone used to get are now standard. If it's your only upgrade on a K series, it's actually the same price as a top on an OD guitar).


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> In regards to the headless bridge knob issue (not that specific one, but the issue in general), Jeff mentioned it in his live video yesterday.
> 
> Apparently Hipshot was having issues with the manufacture of a part of the bridge, which caused the knob to be off-kilter, and would "wobble" side-to-side as it turned. Supposedly they used to have someone who would finish a part on a disc sander, who had the skill to do it...but now they have someone who isn't as skilled, and it effected the end product. They've now switched to doing it on a lathe for better and more consistent results.
> 
> In the video, he said that while the issue was Hipshot's "fault", that they absolutely should have caught it, and didn't, and apologized for that. He also said that if you had an effected unit, which was for just a short couple of week span, that they would either ship out the parts to you, or they would do the repair in the shop (I didn't catch if they would pay for the shipping each or even one of the ways). They also didn't say if there was a timeline, like if they needed to wait for corrected parts from Hipshot, or anything like that.
> 
> If someone needs this service, hopefully they can report on their experience.



The point is that the Kiesel page BANNED the guy over bringing up the issue, and not in a mean way, just in a way that was asking questions. That fucked and you can't even begin to rationalize THAT sort of response.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> Kiesel can't offer the same low upcharge



How do you know they can't if you don't know what the actual cost is? 

Someone who seems to know the cost, granted I suppose you could just not believe them, seems to think that they're inflating the prices for the tops.


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> Kiesel can't offer the same low upcharge because they don't have as many upgrades factored into the base price*.
> 
> You'll note that upgraded tops are significantly cheaper on the K-series, which has a higher base price. I'm sure you can figure out why.
> 
> *(Kiesel's free $100 in options makes figuring out the "real price" of a top tricky, especially now that so many of the upgrades that everyone used to get are now standard. If it's your only upgrade on a K series, it's actually the same price as a top on an OD guitar).



Unless you've discussed this with both companies, you're making a pretty big assumption about how these guys price their options. There is no rule that says a more expensive base price is going to lead to a cheaper option price. In fact, in many industries it is that way. If you buy a high end car, you're definitely going to pay more on the options than if it were a cheaper car. There is no rationale which says that since Kiesel is less than OD, their options should be more expensive. Sure, you could make that argument, but you're taking the discussion way off topic by doing that. The issue is that Jeff says the wood he gets is super special, and therefore expensive. Turns out, it's not super special. It's still expensive, and if that makes sense to you, then cool. But you haven't addressed the fact that he lies or misleads people about the wood itself.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The more I read this thread, the more I feel like keeping my V220 is a dirty feeling with the kiesel name on it. UGH. Jeff ruined all the positive feelings I had for the brand only 2 years ago. Goddammit.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> Unless you've discussed this with both companies, you're making a pretty big assumption about how these guys price their options. There is no rule that says a more expensive base price is going to lead to a cheaper option price. In fact, in many industries it is that way. If you buy a high end car, you're definitely going to pay more on the options than if it were a cheaper car. There is no rationale which says that since Kiesel is less than OD, their options should be more expensive. Sure, you could make that argument, but you're taking the discussion way off topic by doing that. The issue is that Jeff says the wood he gets is super special, and therefore expensive. Turns out, it's not super special. It's still expensive, and if that makes sense to you, then cool. But you haven't addressed the fact that he lies or misleads people about the wood itself.


Go to the OD website. Look at the order form. Note that flame and quilt are no-upcharge options. That in itself proves that some upgrades are priced in.

You can do the same thing by looking at upgrade costs for the K series on Kiesel's website. In fact, once you factor in the free $100 in options from Kiesel, the price of a burl or "high-grade" top from Kiesel on a K series and OD is the same.

OD can't honestly claim someone else is overcharging for an option when he charges the same price.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> Go to the OD website. Look at the order form. Note that flame and quilt are no-upcharge options. That in itself proves that some upgrades are priced in.
> 
> You can do the same thing by looking at upgrade costs for the K series on Kiesel's website. In fact, once you factor in the free $100 in options from Kiesel, the price of a burl or "high-grade" top from Kiesel on a K series and OD is the same.
> 
> OD can't honestly claim someone else is overcharging for an option when he charges the same price.



The fundamental flaw in your logic is that the actual costs, as in total expense per build, is not the same between Kiesel and OD. 

It might cost OD twice what it costs Kiesel to get a guitar out the door, which can account for the gap between base prices outside of additional options. 

If it costs Kiesel $500 to make a guitar, and then charge $300 for a top that really only cost them $20 you're getting charged $280 just for the top.

If it costs OD $1000 to make a guitar, and charges $100 for the top that costs $20 you're paying less for that option. 

Economy of scale is BIG in manufacturing.


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> Go to the OD website. Look at the order form. Note that flame and quilt are no-upcharge options. That in itself proves that some upgrades are priced in.
> 
> You can do the same thing by looking at upgrade costs for the K series on Kiesel's website. In fact, once you factor in the free $100 in options from Kiesel, the price of a burl or "high-grade" top from Kiesel on a K series and OD is the same.
> 
> OD can't honestly claim someone else is overcharging for an option when he charges the same price.



However, included in the base price of these other builders is a _good_ guitar.

In all seriousness, Jeff charges between $1-2k for some of those "private stock" tops that are not anywhere in the ballpark of that price. Koa and redwood. Of the cheaper options, a lot of the burls are dirt cheap, and he charges a couple hundred or more depending on figure. Totally taking advantage of the fact the average buyer thinks that rare woods cost a lot...it's still wood, not ivory or gold.

Of course all of Jeff's woods are 17A-24A grade, so, really how can we form any basis for fair comparison with everyone else's wood supply?


----------



## Cynicanal

narad said:


> However, included in the base price of these other builders is a _good_ guitar.
> 
> In all seriousness, Jeff charges between $1-2k for some of those "private stock" tops that are not anywhere in the ballpark of that price. Koa and redwood. Of the cheaper options, a lot of the burls are dirt cheap, and he charges a couple hundred or more depending on figure. Totally taking advantage of the fact the average buyer thinks that rare woods cost a lot...it's still wood, not ivory or gold.
> 
> Of course all of Jeff's woods are 17A-24A grade, so, really how can we form any basis for fair comparison with everyone else's wood supply?


Dunno where you're getting $1-2k from, the website has their most expensive tops at $600, $500 after the $100 in free options; meanwhile, OD has their most expensive tops as "ask me".

OD's top prices depend on the model (_unsurprisingly_, the more expensive models have cheaper options or more free options), but mostly, they're the same as the K-series prices aside from walnut burl, where OD is cheaper. OD's figuring on their tops really isn't anywhere near as good though, judging from their gallery: http://www.od-guitars.com/gallery-2/guitar-porn/#lg=1&slide=14 or http://www.od-guitars.com/gallery-2/guitar-porn/#lg=1&slide=17 vs https://www.kieselguitars.com/kseries/images/k7h.jpg or https://www.kieselguitars.com/kseries/images/k8h.jpg (I didn't handpick those; I just grabbed the first two examples of a flame top I could find on each of their websites).


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> Dunno where you're getting $1-2k from, the website has their most expensive tops at $600, $500 after the $100 in free options; meanwhile, OD has their most expensive tops as "ask me".
> 
> OD's top prices depend on the model (_unsurprisingly_, the more expensive models have cheaper options or more free options), but mostly, they're the same as the K-series prices aside from walnut burl, where OD is cheaper. OD's figuring on their tops really isn't anywhere near as good though, judging from their gallery: http://www.od-guitars.com/gallery-2/guitar-porn/#lg=1&slide=14 or http://www.od-guitars.com/gallery-2/guitar-porn/#lg=1&slide=17 vs https://www.kieselguitars.com/kseries/images/k7h.jpg or https://www.kieselguitars.com/kseries/images/k8h.jpg (I didn't handpick those; I just grabbed the first two examples of a flame top I could find on each of their websites).



Because Jeff also has "ask me" tops.

But yea, I wouldn't confuse good photography for good wood. Nor do I really care to try to debate OD vs. Kiesel. It's pretty clear that Jeff is the annoying one here, going out of his way to trash the "other" builders with ideas he claims to have thought of first, or has perfected in ways others can't. That was OD's point. 

Maybe you should start a Kiesel-always-and-forever thread?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The K-Series is just Jeff's attempt at trying to capture the small independent luthier market. They charge an extra couple grand to run slightly fancier billet through the same process as thier $1500 guitars...occasional defects and all.


----------



## Cynicanal

>It's pretty clear that Jeff is the annoying one here, going out of his way to trash the "other" builders
>"Other" builder goes to Kiesel's FB just to trash Kiesel's top pricing

Uh...


----------



## V_man

Cynicanal said:


> >It's pretty clear that Jeff is the annoying one here, going out of his way to trash the "other" builders
> >"Other" builder goes to Kiesel's FB just to trash Kiesel's top pricing
> 
> Uh...



Thats just an answer. Jeff started it


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> >It's pretty clear that Jeff is the annoying one here, going out of his way to trash the "other" builders
> >"Other" builder goes to Kiesel's FB just to trash Kiesel's top pricing
> 
> Uh...



Jeff started it with his digs at other builders in his videos. Most of which are pure bullshit. 

Such classics as:
- You can't fit the top to the arm contour.
- We can't extend the scale on that guitar. 
- We're the only ones that do "x".

All of which they eventually, magically figured out. 

Yeah, it was kind of shitty for OD to call him out, but it's not like he started it. It's also not like he was lying.


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> >It's pretty clear that Jeff is the annoying one here, going out of his way to trash the "other" builders
> >"Other" builder goes to Kiesel's FB just to trash Kiesel's top pricing
> 
> Uh...



In response to being constantly trashed talked in Jeff's videos, something that's been going on at least a year because that's about when I zoned out from watching any of them. Around the time of ~"Man, we had a bunch of our guitars stolen, it's really rough on us, if you're on the fence about an order we'd really appreciate it" bunch of bullshit.

Max basically ended the entire point of discussion 6 posts into this OD topic, but ya, fanbois.


----------



## Seabeast2000

narad said:


> In response to being constantly trashed talked in Jeff's videos, something that's been going on at least a year because that's about when I zoned out from watching any of them. Around the time of ~"Man, we had a bunch of our guitars stolen, it's really rough on us, if you're on the fence about an order we'd really appreciate it" bunch of bullshit.
> 
> Max basically ended the entire point of discussion 6 posts into this OD topic, but ya, fanbois.


How much does racing gas cost these days? That is the price point answer.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> In response to being constantly trashed talked in Jeff's videos, something that's been going on at least a year because that's about when I zoned out from watching any of them. Around the time of ~"Man, we had a bunch of our guitars stolen, it's really rough on us, if you're on the fence about an order we'd really appreciate it" bunch of bullshit.
> 
> Max basically ended the entire point of discussion 6 posts into this OD topic, but ya, fanbois.



Exactly, and that is how Jeff is keeping his business: People too blind to see the problems, then attack people who criticize or try to change the argument so that it fits their narrative.


----------



## Cynicanal

narad said:


> In response to being constantly trashed talked in Jeff's videos, something that's been going on at least a year because that's about when I zoned out from watching any of them. Around the time of ~"Man, we had a bunch of our guitars stolen, it's really rough on us, if you're on the fence about an order we'd really appreciate it" bunch of bullshit.
> 
> Max basically ended the entire point of discussion 6 posts into this OD topic, but ya, fanbois.


Constantly? I've watched quite a few of Jeff's vids and had never even heard of OD guitars before today.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Constantly? I've watched quite a few of Jeff's vids and had never even heard of OD guitars before today.



Now you're fanboy-ing it up. OD was specifically talking about SMALL LUTHIERS like himself, NOT OD GUITARS GOT SLAMMED POOR ME. If you cant even understand OD's arguments, you shouldn't even be trying to discuss this issue AT ALL.


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> Constantly? I've watched quite a few of Jeff's vids and had never even heard of OD guitars before today.



He doesn't call out OD by name, just "other guys" etc.

Like I can claim that I'm the best guitarist on this forum, but I don't have to call out anyone in particular, to offend almost everyone by how untrue that statement is. And also at my ignorance to even try to make that claim. That's what Jeff's like.


----------



## wannabguitarist

The906 said:


> How much does racing gas cost these days? That is the price point answer.



Actually not that bad. Hoosiers and rotary engines are super expensive though.


----------



## Cynicanal

narad said:


> He doesn't call out OD by name, just "other guys" etc.
> 
> Like I can claim that I'm the best guitarist on this forum, but I don't have to call out anyone in particular, to offend almost everyone by how untrue that statement is. And also at my ignorance to even try to make that claim. That's what Jeff's like.


First off, I don't think anyone would be offended if you claimed you were the best guitarist here. Hell, I doubt anyone would even care.

Secondly, the difference is, you're not a business creating an advertisement. When was the last time you saw an ad from a business that said "yeah, those other guys are just as good as us."? Oh, right, never. I don't understand why everyone thinks Kiesel should say "yeah, those other guys are better than us" in their advertisement.


----------



## oracles

Cynicanal said:


> I don't understand why everyone thinks Kiesel should say "yeah, those other guys are better than us" in their advertisement.



It isnt about saying "brand x is better than us, order from them instead" it's that literally no other builder of a similar size or scale, or in general for that matter, is taking to social media to hype themselves up and trash other brands and builders.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> First off, I don't think anyone would be offended if you claimed you were the best guitarist here. Hell, I doubt anyone would even care.
> 
> Secondly, the difference is, you're not a business creating an advertisement. When was the last time you saw an ad from a business that said "yeah, those other guys are just as good as us."? Oh, right, never. I don't understand why everyone thinks Kiesel should say "yeah, those other guys are better than us" in their advertisement.



Dude, you have lost the plot entirely. OD specifically stated that he didn't take kindly to Jeff's bashing of SMALL luthiers, of which he is one. Now that you've tried to dilute his argument to something that wasn't even said is just trying to protect Jeff for the sake of protecting the Kiesel name, of which he has already sullied with his bullshit.


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> First off, I don't think anyone would be offended if you claimed you were the best guitarist here. Hell, I doubt anyone would even care.



Yea.. it was more of an analogy...



Cynicanal said:


> Secondly, the difference is, you're not a business creating an advertisement. When was the last time you saw an ad from a business that said "yeah, those other guys are just as good as us."? Oh, right, never. I don't understand why everyone thinks Kiesel should say "yeah, those other guys are better than us" in their advertisement.



Usually the builders I support don't trash talk other guys, but say things like, "Oh yea, Nik's guitars are amazing too. You can't go wrong with either of us." That's classy. I mean... not to say classy behavior begets classy guitars, but we've seen Jeff's guitars so I'm not saying I'm surprised that he doesn't take the high road here. 

Jeff basically uses the Trump-style sell. We got all the best woods. I ask everyone, they say we got the best stuff. A guy I'm close friends with had the best stuff before, and I asked how our stuff was, and he said it was better.


----------



## Seabeast2000

The pants have been pooped, let's change out.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

oracles said:


> It isnt about saying "brand x is better than us, order from them instead" it's that literally no other builder of a similar size or scale, or in general for that matter, is taking to social media to hype themselves up and trash other brands and builders.



THIS THIS THIS. Not even bigger builders (except for maybe Gibson) bash other companies, as I KNOW for a fact that Hoshino never bashes other builders, and neither does whats his face at ESP. You dont have to trash people in order to sell your product. Jeff thinks bashing is a marketing strategy... I mean it could be, if you wanna lose all your core customer base that has kept the company alive for 40 years and fill it with a bunch of like-minded people who just like to sit and bash other builders.


----------



## Soya

wannabguitarist said:


> Actually not that bad. Hoosiers and rotary engines are super expensive though.


Right? I got out of the rotary life a few years ago .


----------



## BigViolin

Good businesses get ahead by doing great work and owning up when, occasionally things go sideways. They don't lower themselves by bashing the competition, ever. It's very simple actually and there's a bold line. You either cross it or you don't. The internet and free discourse hasn't changed that a bit, if anything it's more important now as it's easier to see who holds up to the scrutiny with honor.


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> Go to the OD website. Look at the order form. Note that flame and quilt are no-upcharge options. That in itself proves that some upgrades are priced in.
> 
> You can do the same thing by looking at upgrade costs for the K series on Kiesel's website. In fact, once you factor in the free $100 in options from Kiesel, the price of a burl or "high-grade" top from Kiesel on a K series and OD is the same.
> 
> OD can't honestly claim someone else is overcharging for an option when he charges the same price.



You're still making assumptions. You can't claim that those "upgrades" are figured in. You also can't even claim that they're upgrades. What one person calls an upgrade is strictly the way they want to run their business. Go order a guitar from Tom Drinkwater, and you'll find that a stained quilted maple top is actually cheaper than a single color painted alder body. So is that a reverse option figured in? Tom doesn't do paint, so he has to outsource it, so for his business, that's how he's chosen to run it. You seem to have this major issue with this option business, but you're missing the entire point - OD is getting the same wood as Jeff, and it's nothing fancy or particularly expensive. But you're still saying, "Yeah, but OD guitars are expensive too." That's not the issue. The issue is that Jeff is lying. I don't think we'd even be having this conversation if Jeff said, "Hey guys, we have this assembly line process. For me to throw a variable into it - and put a special wood that takes extra effort for us to deal with - costs money and time. Therefore we have to charge extra for it." But he doesn't say that, he instead says that the wood is something more special than it is. THAT'S the point. Yes, OD guitars cost money. Yes, their options are completely priced diferently. And yes, both businesses will charge whatever the market will bear. But, as stated, Jeff tends to not be honest or ethical in many instances, and this is another example of that.


----------



## Hollowway

BigViolin said:


> Good businesses get ahead by doing great work and owning up when, occasionally things go sideways. They don't lower themselves by bashing the competition, ever. It's very simple actually and there's a bold line. You either cross it or you don't. The internet and free discourse hasn't changed that a bit, if anything it's more important now as it's easier to see who holds up to the scrutiny with honor.



Exactly. And, every study that's ever been done on the matter says that it's far cheaper to keep an existing customer than to gain a new one. And it's also a maxim that if you make a 10 people happy, they'll tell one person. You make one person angry, and they'll tell ten. 

The issue I have with Kiesel, and the reason I am so vocal about expressing it, is that Jeff is doing all of the hard things to make a good brand and business, but continually drops the ball on the EASY things, and it's just maddening to be seeing it from the sidelines. It would be like seeing a quarterback continually march down the field, only to choose to kick a field goal instead of going for a TD. Or like how Apple got the jump start on AI with Siri, and then, year after year, shits the bed with the damn thing.


----------



## narad

Hollowway said:


> Or like how Apple got the jump start on AI with Siri, and then, year after year, shits the bed with the damn thing.



A bit off-topic but Apple shit the bed with Siri because they just bought the company that made the technology, that wasn't using sota AI techniques to begin with, and that was limited right from the beginning from ever scaling up into anything interesting. About time for them to buy a new company actually.

So Kiesel, which has been doing this in-house for like 70 years, is far more at fault for these mistakes than Apple! ;-)


----------



## BigViolin

IMO it comes down to ego. There are some who can't differentiate between what they want to do vs what they should do. They feel like their reactions to an issue are justified by the other party. These folks don't have a chance, they'll never get it. The true pros never break form. This situation is especially frustrating because Jeff can put out a great guitar and has some cool and unique features for a decent price but at the first sign of conflict goes full on hurt little boy.

It's too bad. Carvin was a cool company.

Ego.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> You're still making assumptions. You can't claim that those "upgrades" are figured in. You also can't even claim that they're upgrades.


If there aren't upgrades figured in, then why are options that are free on OD's more expensive models (including, yes, quilt maple tops, or also multi-piece necks) upcharges on the cheaper ones?



> I don't think we'd even be having this conversation if Jeff said, "Hey guys, we have this assembly line process. For me to throw a variable into it - and put a special wood that takes extra effort for us to deal with - costs money and time. Therefore we have to charge extra for it."


He's said that in videos lots of times, about all sorts of topics. He's said in multiple videos, the main reason a "master grade" top is more expensive is because he has to spend time digging through his wood pile to find something unique, instead of just pulling whatever is off the top; he's also cited that as the reason why crackle, sparkle, and denim finishes are so expensive, why wood pickup bobbins are so expensive (and why he insists only doing them on really expensive builds), why custom electronic layouts are so expensive (and why, when they're particularly busy, he won't do them at all), etc. Yes, he also claims that he gets the best wood from his suppliers, but that isn't what he generally uses to justify his costs.

This angle of "I like their guitars, but I don't like how Jeff comes across on social media, so I don't like Kiesel!" is so utterly strange.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Cynicanal said:


> This angle of "I like their guitars, but I don't like how Jeff comes across on social media, so I don't like Kiesel!" is so utterly strange.



Is it? He's making himself the face of the company, it's pretty much _expected _that if people don't like the face he's putting forward, they aren't going to like the company. That's not a phenomenon unique to Kiesel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cynicanal said:


> If there aren't upgrades figured in, then why are options that are free on OD's more expensive models (including, yes, quilt maple tops, or also multi-piece necks) upcharges on the cheaper ones?



Because they likely need to make a set amount per guitar in order to remain solvent and thus give two ways of getting there: a) a more inclusive build with a higher buy-in or b) a more al a carte format. 

It's a model that builders have used for decades and decades. 



> He's said that in videos lots of times, about all sorts of topics. He's said in multiple videos, the main reason a "master grade" top is more expensive is because he has to spend time digging through his wood pile to find something unique, instead of just pulling whatever is off the top; he's also cited that as the reason why crackle, sparkle, and denim finishes are so expensive, why wood pickup bobbins are so expensive (and why he insists only doing them on really expensive builds), why custom electronic layouts are so expensive (and why, when they're particularly busy, he won't do them at all), etc. Yes, he also claims that he gets the best wood from his suppliers, but that isn't what he generally uses to justify his costs.



Having been working on guitars for many, many years, having done most all of that myself and with other builders, I can tell you that most of what he says about building guitars and materials used to do such ranges from misleading to utter bullshit. 

He preys on ignorance. 



> This angle of "I like their guitars, but I don't like how Jeff comes across on social media, so I don't like Kiesel!" is so utterly strange.



Is that really what you've gleaned from all this? From this thread as a whole? 

He's not the first builder to be a prick, and honestly I couldn't care less about that. 

What I do care about is how they treat customers when they fuck up. It used to be great, now its far from it. The fact that he's been personally involved in some of these clusterfucks speaks volumes.

But sure, we just think he's a big meany.


----------



## wannabguitarist

Soya said:


> Right? I got out of the rotary life a few years ago .



Say what you want about Jeff, but a 3 (maybe, or is it 2?) rotor powered turbocharged Triumph is a super creative racecar idea and very badass


----------



## KnightBrolaire

The906 said:


> How much does racing gas cost these days? That is the price point answer.


a hell of a lot less than airplane fuel 

The shitshow continues. Basically this guy made a video talking about how he got in on the 2015 guitar porn run and he's been having neck instability issues for 3 years, and how in his opinion, kiesels are fine if they're sub 2k, but the quality isn't there for their more expensive guitars. He also calls them out for not properly drying their woods and said that Jeff can't take criticism. Kiesel banned him from their group and deleted his video/posts.


----------



## wannabguitarist

We need links to the drama man


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the video he made calling out kiesel


----------



## prlgmnr

Cynicanal said:


> the main reason a "master grade" top is more expensive is because he has to spend time digging through his wood pile to find something unique, instead of just pulling whatever is off the top



LOOKING THROUGH PILE OF WOOD: $600


----------



## MatiasTolkki

KnightBrolaire said:


> the video he made calling out kiesel




can't see it on my phone. is it still active?


----------



## Avedas

I might consider paying $600 for a video of Jeff digging through a pile of shit.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Avedas said:


> I might consider paying $600 for a video of Jeff digging through a pile of shit.



I'd rather spend that money on an ibanez 540r or xpt700.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MatiasTolkki said:


> can't see it on my phone. is it still active?


Yeah the vid is still active, fb wouldn't let me embed it though


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Ah, I cant see it. Maybe it's because that group is not public?


----------



## pfizer

Kiesel is going to become the new Claas with their "build-quality/quality-control to cost" ratio, with the added bonus of Jeff Kiesel being a prolapsed asshole about other luthiers and brands.

They're generating ill-will among their customers at an alarming rate which is a shame because I actually really dig some of their shit and was seriously considering buying a Vader or Osiris from them. 

Hubris is a bitch man -- Jeff Kiesel is likely going to find that out the hard way.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

pfizer said:


> Kiesel is going to become the new Claas with their "build-quality/quality-control to cost" ratio, with the added bonus of Jeff Kiesel being a prolapsed asshole about other luthiers and brands.
> 
> They're generating ill-will among their customers at an alarming rate which is a shame because I actually really dig some of their shit and was seriously considering buying a Vader or Osiris from them.
> 
> Hubris is a bitch man -- Jeff Kiesel is likely going to find that out the hard way.



By then he wont have any customers left. Knowing that idiot he'll probably just double down even more, because his head is so far up his own ass that he can use his nipples for parascopes.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> By then he wont have any customers left. Knowing that idiot he'll probably just double down even more, because his head is so far up his own ass that he can use his nipples for parascopes.


I'm envisioning NAMM 2019, Mattias, a microphone and a cameraman. Sitting just outside the Kiesel booth for the entire duration. Youtube Gold I tell ya!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> I'm envisioning NAMM 2019, Mattias, a microphone and a cameraman. Sitting just outside the Kiesel booth for the entire duration. Youtube Gold I tell ya!



Hell no, I'd never go to NAMM. It has no impact on what guitars I get here in Japan.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> Hell no, I'd never go to NAMM. It has no impact on what guitars I get here in Japan.


Ok. Maybe we can get ALW.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> Hell no, I'd never go to NAMM. It has no impact on what guitars I get here in Japan.


Ok. Maybe we can get ALW.


----------



## prlgmnr

prlgmnr said:


> LOOKING THROUGH PILE OF WOOD: $600


SUCCESSFULLY LOCATING WOOD IN PILE OF WOOD: +$400, NO RETURNS


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> This angle of "I like their guitars, but I don't like how Jeff comes across on social media, so I don't like Kiesel!" is so utterly strange.



How people feel about a brand is literally the most valuable thing to a company. I don’t know why you think that’s so unusual. Jeff is sabotaging his own brand. If that doesn’t bother you, then that’s awesome for you. It’s odd that you think the rest of us need to agree with you, though.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> How people feel about a brand is literally the most valuable thing to a company. I don’t know why you think that’s so unusual. Jeff is sabotaging his own brand. If that doesn’t bother you, then that’s awesome for you. It’s odd that you think the rest of us need to agree with you, though.



gotta remember, Cynicanal is a fanboy from the Kiesel forums who followed me here and only registered to counter my points about Kiesel.


----------



## Cynicanal

Correction, I didn't "follow" you; I've been lurking here for years, which is the only reason I saw your posts here after you got banned from the Kiesel forums.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Correction, I didn't "follow" you; I've been lurking here for years, which is the only reason I saw your posts here after you got banned from the Kiesel forums.



And you only registered because of my comments being anti-kiesel. Didn't refute my main point.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> And you only registered because of my comments being anti-kiesel. Didn't refute my main point.


Hey, show some respect.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> Hey, show some respect.



Dude, he said it himself IN THIS VERY THREAD. Go back and look when he first joined and read the comment for yourself.


----------



## Seabeast2000

oops, I was referencing the Jeff FB chat where he demands respect. Sorry, its obscure already.


----------



## Hollowway

For the people who defend Kiesel, in the face of obvious failures, how do they feel about people/companies that DON’T suffer from the same issues? Like, we’ve established that the biggest issue with Kiesel is Jeff’s lying, his obfuscating and gas lamping problems with some guitars, and his lack of customer service. In contrast, take someone like Rich from Ibanez Rules. He has legendary customer service, and makes brutally honest, transparent note about any flaws in the guitars he sells. So, if Jeff’s behavior is acceptable, does that make Rich a chump? In other words, in the Kiesel (ultimate) fans’ eyes, is what Rich does even relevant? I say this because I like Kiesel guitars, but it’s super obvious to me that Jeff is leaving money on the table because of these easy-to-correct issues. For me, if I care about something, I’m going to get pissed if it starts going downhill.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> For the people who defend Kiesel, in the face of obvious failures, how do they feel about people/companies that DON’T suffer from the same issues? Like, we’ve established that the biggest issue with Kiesel is Jeff’s lying, his obfuscating and gas lamping problems with some guitars, and his lack of customer service. In contrast, take someone like Rich from Ibanez Rules. He has legendary customer service, and makes brutally honest, transparent note about any flaws in the guitars he sells. So, if Jeff’s behavior is acceptable, does that make Rich a chump? In other words, in the Kiesel (ultimate) fans’ eyes, is what Rich does even relevant? I say this because I like Kiesel guitars, but it’s super obvious to me that Jeff is leaving money on the table because of these easy-to-correct issues. For me, if I care about something, I’m going to get pissed if it starts going downhill.



To be fair, Rich isn't Ibanez. He's an authorized dealer, but that's it.

I love Ibanez Rules, and Rich is awesome, but apples to oranges in your specific comparison. 

I think you'd be better off comparing Jeff and Kiesel to smaller custom shops. Folks like Tom Anderson, John Suhr, James Tyler, etc. Even Ola Strandberg would probably be a better analog.


----------



## Hollowway

/\ that’s true. It would be hard for Rich to take any criticism of the actual guitars personally, since he didn’t build them. The dude does know how to run a solid, trusted business, though.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> For the people who defend Kiesel, in the face of obvious failures, how do they feel about people/companies that DON’T suffer from the same issues? Like, we’ve established that the biggest issue with Kiesel is Jeff’s lying, his obfuscating and gas lamping problems with some guitars, and his lack of customer service. In contrast, take someone like Rich from Ibanez Rules. He has legendary customer service, and makes brutally honest, transparent note about any flaws in the guitars he sells. So, if Jeff’s behavior is acceptable, does that make Rich a chump? In other words, in the Kiesel (ultimate) fans’ eyes, is what Rich does even relevant? I say this because I like Kiesel guitars, but it’s super obvious to me that Jeff is leaving money on the table because of these easy-to-correct issues. For me, if I care about something, I’m going to get pissed if it starts going downhill.


What Rich does isn't relevant to me because I don't like most Ibanez guitars (not a fan of super-flat back-of-neck shapes, and I prefer neck-through fixed-bridge over bolt-on tremolo [and also I like hyphens {and also nesting parenthesis}]). He has a business that seems to do OK for him, so good for him!


----------



## strangers

Hollowway said:


> For the people who defend Kiesel, in the face of obvious failures, how do they feel about people/companies that DON’T suffer from the same issues? Like, we’ve established that the biggest issue with Kiesel is Jeff’s lying, his obfuscating and gas lamping problems with some guitars, and his lack of customer service. In contrast, take someone like Rich from Ibanez Rules. He has legendary customer service, and makes brutally honest, transparent note about any flaws in the guitars he sells. So, if Jeff’s behavior is acceptable, does that make Rich a chump? In other words, in the Kiesel (ultimate) fans’ eyes, is what Rich does even relevant? I say this because I like Kiesel guitars, but it’s super obvious to me that Jeff is leaving money on the table because of these easy-to-correct issues. For me, if I care about something, I’m going to get pissed if it starts going downhill.




For me, I don't care about the personality related stuff. I never watched his videos before I purchased, and haven't watched one since I got mine. I don't think I'll go back to watch again until I buy another, and then just to watch for it to get shown in a walkthrough.

It's clear that his personality is a turn off for some people, but it's also likely that it is gaining them some sales too. There are a lot of people out there that his personality appeals to.

As for the QC stuff, I'm conflicted. I dealt with cs with no problem, but clearly other people are having bad experiences. It's clear to me that there are things that you should avoid (fair or not) to get a good cs experience. I don't know what the discriminating factor is there, but it is unfortunate.

I'll continue to defend them to the extent that their faults are something to price into the guitar. If you see risk of bad service, or don't want to be associated with him, that devalues their guitars and possibly pushes them below the price point you but at.

Just because there are issues, doesn't mean you don't buy. I have had some pretty negative experiences with Fryette's customer service, but I really love my VHT. I would probably buy another, I just accept the risk that the cost of the amp is greater than what I pay.

They are flawed, but for me the flaws don't cost enough to sway me from buying. If they get worse, maybe they don't get my business, but I'm not going to enjoy my guitar any less.

I'm also getting a padalka this year, my experience with Simon has been incredible so far. Similarly, that makes the guitar worth more than it's options, fit, and finish. I don't think he is a chump, but he's got a different business with its own hidden costs and benefits to weigh as well.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@Cynicanal 

And you have yet to address any criticisms directly. Let's maybe answer some questions and stop dodging like Bill Clinton dodged the draft.

@strangers 

So you're telling me, that if the face of a company that you like guitars for literally shat on another maker's guitar and said something to the effect of "Now the shit pile is complete, you stupid Asian trash," that you would ignore it and buy it anyway? This might be an over-exaggeration to an extent but you said you don't care what the personality issues are, so I used one of the most extreme examples to see if you actually believe that.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> Hey, show some respect.



Sorry bro, didnt get that reference :/


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

The906 said:


> Ok. Maybe we can get ALW.



I haven’t cared about the Carvin booth since 2013, when they adopted their current MO: Jeff surrounds himself with douchier-looking guys in bowling shirts and just frowns at anyone who isn’t there to film him talking up his new models, which are often just melted, neon Guy Fieri versions of his dad’s designs that they’ve replaced at higher price points.

I swear, his entire inherited career was made possible by Make-A-Wish mistaking his adult appearance for a child with progeria swallowing a sloth.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> Sorry bro, didnt get that reference :/


OK you made me go back and find it! Funillily enough, after using the SSO search there is a trend of "show some respect" being conveyed from party K to party C (Kiesel/Customer). LOLZ0RZ.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

The906 said:


> OK you made me go back and find it! Funillily enough, after using the SSO search there is a trend of "show some respect" being conveyed from party K to party C (Kiesel/Customer). LOLZ0RZ.




OOOOOOOOHHHHH, I remember this  Fucking Jeff and his fucking ego...


----------



## cwhitey2

The906 said:


> OK you made me go back and find it! Funillily enough, after using the SSO search there is a trend of "show some respect" being conveyed from party K to party C (Kiesel/Customer). LOLZ0RZ.


----------



## strangers

MatiasTolkki said:


> So you're telling me, that if the face of a company that you like guitars for literally shat on another maker's guitar and said something to the effect of "Now the shit pile is complete, you stupid Asian trash," that you would ignore it and buy it anyway? This might be an over-exaggeration to an extent but you said you don't care what the personality issues are, so I used one of the most extreme examples to see if you actually believe that.




Let me clarify that by the personality related stuff, I meant the stuff mentioned in the post before. That being said, no, I still wouldn't care. He can trash other brands and other people all he wants, I don't care. If he starts calling for the reintroduction of Japanese internment camps, I'll stop buying his guitars. If he is just saying stuff in poor taste, I don't care. Somewhere in the middle there is a line, I don't know where it is.

If ALW starts a guitar company that makes reasonably priced guitars that I like, successfully sells them to enough people that I'm willing to risk buying one, and I feel so inclined, I'll buy one. I don't care if he made fun of Kiesel. I'm pretty sure a few pages back, at least once, he said something to the effect that anyone buying a Kiesel is suffering from undiagnosed mental retardation. I don't care. Some of his comments are funny, some aren't, none of them would affect me buying a guitar from him. They are just words on the internet, and there is no actionable harm behind them, it just doesn't matter to me.


----------



## Andromalia

Cynicanal said:


> Correction, I didn't "follow" you; I've been lurking here for years, which is the only reason I saw your posts here after you got banned from the Kiesel forums.



Feb 2018 isn't "years". it's 4 months ago, just saying. 
(I don't own, don't plan to buy and have no interest in Kiesel guitars whatsoever, whose designs I just don't like - Just tired of shills)


----------



## prlgmnr

Andromalia said:


> Feb 2018 isn't "years". it's 4 months ago.


Time just flies by when you're arguing about Kiesel.


----------



## spudmunkey

Andromalia said:


> Feb 2018 isn't "years". it's 4 months ago, just saying.




"Lurked" doesn't mean "joined", just saying. 

Also, it's only April. February was 2 months ago. Even if it were February 1st to April 30th, that's only 3 months, just saying.


----------



## Cynicanal

Andromalia said:


> Feb 2018 isn't "years". it's 4 months ago, just saying.
> (I don't own, don't plan to buy and have no interest in Kiesel guitars whatsoever, whose designs I just don't like - Just tired of shills)


I lurked for long before I registered for gear info, since this place is the best place to find info for how stuff will perform with lots of downtuning.


----------



## Flappydoodle

pfizer said:


> Kiesel is going to become the new Claas with their "build-quality/quality-control to cost" ratio, with the added bonus of Jeff Kiesel being a prolapsed asshole about other luthiers and brands.
> 
> They're generating ill-will among their customers at an alarming rate which is a shame because I actually really dig some of their shit and was seriously considering buying a Vader or Osiris from them.
> 
> Hubris is a bitch man -- Jeff Kiesel is likely going to find that out the hard way.



I'm really not sure. In this day and age, they've got their social media game on top form, a growing list of "influencer" endorsements etc. 

Even this thread only has 170,000 views - mostly by the same couple hundred people checking back in. One YouTube video by Jared, Ola, Fluff etc could easily exceed that.

They're probably taking two steps forward and one step back, but they're still moving forward.


----------



## spudmunkey

Not saying I agree with their methods, or what it says about these other companys' Facebook presence (because they all out-do Kiesel on Instagram), but Kiesel has more followers on Facebook than PRS, Ibanez, Jackson and ESP. Not bad for a company whose guitars aren't sold in any store in the world*

*_not counting used guitars, or the possibe couple of asian countries in which they might or might not still have dealers_


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Not saying I agree with their methods, or what it says about these other company's Facebook presense (because they all out-do Kiesel on Instagram), but Kiesel has more followers on Facebook than PRS, Ibanez, Jackson and ESP. Not bad for a company who's guitars aren't sold in any store in the world*
> 
> *_not counting used guitars, or the possibl couple of asian countries that they might or might not still have dealers in_



What does that mean exactly? 

I bet more people in real life know about those other brands you listed. 

My wife has a friend who's an "Instagram Influencer" and "model". She has almost 300k followers. She is also, not very financially stable. She makes next to nothing on that following, bar some free clothes or makeup and the occasionally flying out to a fancy location for a photo shoot.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm not claiming to know what it means, either. Just an observation, one related to flappydoodle's post.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> What does that mean exactly?
> 
> I bet more people in real life know about those other brands you listed.
> 
> My wife has a friend who's an "Instagram Influencer" and "model". She has almost 300k followers. She is also, not very financially stable. She makes next to nothing on that following, bar some free clothes or makeup and the occasionally flying out to a fancy location for a photo shoot.



It means Kiesel spent some money to buy followers and likes... when maintaining cult-like guerilla marketing (which is definitely the Kiesel approach aka Jeff and "the good guy" bros vs everyone else) it is pretty common practice


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Not saying I agree with their methods, or what it says about these other companys' Facebook presence (because they all out-do Kiesel on Instagram), but Kiesel has more followers on Facebook than PRS, Ibanez, Jackson and ESP. Not bad for a company whose guitars aren't sold in any store in the world*
> 
> *_not counting used guitars, or the possibe couple of asian countries in which they might or might not still have dealers_



ibanez has multiple pages, for multiple markets. Jeff cherrypicked a single ibanez page, which does NOT accout for all ibanez fans around the world.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> *Jeff *cherrypicked a single ibanez page



Projecting much? I logged into FB, searched "Ibanez guitars" and pulled up their official page and compare the numbers. Admittedly a flawed methodology.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Projecting much? I logged into FB, searched "Ibanez guitars" and pulled up their official page and compare the numbers. Admittedly a flawed methodology.



type ibanez Japan, ibanez UK, etc. THATS my point.


----------



## narad

technomancer said:


> It means Kiesel spent some money to buy followers and likes... when maintaining cult-like guerilla marketing (which is definitely the Kiesel approach aka Jeff and "the good guy" bros vs everyone else) it is pretty common practice



And of course we understand from Kim Kardasian and Logan Paul that the number of followers on social media is highly indicative of their professionalism and quality of the service.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> And of course we understand from Kim Kardasian and Logan Paul that the number of followers on social media is highly indicative of their professionalism and quality of the service.



God Logan Paul... I wish he'd disappear. I was hoping I'd never see that name again.


----------



## narad

strangers said:


> I'm pretty sure a few pages back, at least once, he said something to the effect that anyone buying a Kiesel is suffering from undiagnosed mental retardation.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> type ibanez Japan, ibanez UK, etc. THATS my point.



Yes, I understood your point. That was the point of the "admittedly a flawed methodology" part. i was initially referring to the "Jeff just..." part.


----------



## Hollowway

strangers said:


> For me, I don't care about the personality related stuff. I never watched his videos before I purchased, and haven't watched one since I got mine. I don't think I'll go back to watch again until I buy another, and then just to watch for it to get shown in a walkthrough.
> 
> It's clear that his personality is a turn off for some people, but it's also likely that it is gaining them some sales too. There are a lot of people out there that his personality appeals to.
> 
> As for the QC stuff, I'm conflicted. I dealt with cs with no problem, but clearly other people are having bad experiences. It's clear to me that there are things that you should avoid (fair or not) to get a good cs experience. I don't know what the discriminating factor is there, but it is unfortunate.
> 
> I'll continue to defend them to the extent that their faults are something to price into the guitar. If you see risk of bad service, or don't want to be associated with him, that devalues their guitars and possibly pushes them below the price point you but at.
> 
> Just because there are issues, doesn't mean you don't buy. I have had some pretty negative experiences with Fryette's customer service, but I really love my VHT. I would probably buy another, I just accept the risk that the cost of the amp is greater than what I pay.
> 
> They are flawed, but for me the flaws don't cost enough to sway me from buying. If they get worse, maybe they don't get my business, but I'm not going to enjoy my guitar any less.
> 
> I'm also getting a padalka this year, my experience with Simon has been incredible so far. Similarly, that makes the guitar worth more than it's options, fit, and finish. I don't think he is a chump, but he's got a different business with its own hidden costs and benefits to weigh as well.



Yeah, I don't have any problem with the Kiesel's I have. In fact, I'm totally open to buying another one. It's just that I'll only buy used. With a used guitar, you know what you're going to get (to a certain extent) and if there's a problem, you can take it up with Reverb or PP. But, with Kiesel, it's a dice roll. I think that's what most of the criticism of the company is. Carvin had legendary customer service, and you knew you could spec out, buy, and try a guitar, and be able to send it back, no questions asked. That is no longer the case. It changes the value proposition. 

I'm curious what you think Simon's hidden costs and benefits are. I've dealt with him as well, and I don't see any downside to a Padalka that needs to be figured in, the way you have to with Kiesel. There appears to be no risk, no stories of poor quality or poor customer service. It just seems way more logical to give money to Simon than Kiesel, at this point. Simon isn't even consistently more expensive.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> [...]you knew you could spec out, buy, and try a guitar, and be able to send it back, no questions asked. That is no longer the case.


Where is there a case of them not honoring the 10-day trial without letting the customer know in advance that one of their options nullified it?


----------



## strangers

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I don't have any problem with the Kiesel's I have. In fact, I'm totally open to buying another one. It's just that I'll only buy used. With a used guitar, you know what you're going to get (to a certain extent) and if there's a problem, you can take it up with Reverb or PP. But, with Kiesel, it's a dice roll. I think that's what most of the criticism of the company is. Carvin had legendary customer service, and you knew you could spec out, buy, and try a guitar, and be able to send it back, no questions asked. That is no longer the case. It changes the value proposition.
> 
> I'm curious what you think Simon's hidden costs and benefits are. I've dealt with him as well, and I don't see any downside to a Padalka that needs to be figured in, the way you have to with Kiesel. There appears to be no risk, no stories of poor quality or poor customer service. It just seems way more logical to give money to Simon than Kiesel, at this point. Simon isn't even consistently more expensive.



First off, if something happens to Simon, then I'm not getting my guitar, and there is a good chance that I won't get a refund. It could be a car accident, or legal issues, who knows. But when it's a one person operation that's the reality. If you have a Kiesel on order and Jeff kicks it, there is probably a pretty good chance the company moves on. 

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of examples of one man shops where the guy was killing it, only for things to change later on. Someone was always the first person to get ripped off. I don't anticipate this happening with him, but it's a nonzero chance.

Simon is out of the country, so there are the issues related to shipping a guitar to me from across the globe. He's apparently willing to eat the cost in that case, asa evidenced in thet padalka thread. Even then, I still had my money tied up for almost a year, so there is the opportunity cost associated with that, where I can bill the Kiesel to a card.

Simon books a year of orders at a time, so if you don't get in the window, you aren't getting a guitar, and you aren't getting one as quick even if you do.

All that said, at this point I would be much more likely to get another Padalka before a Kiesel. I agree that if you only were going to buy one, that the Padalka is more appealing. My next guitar probably won't be a Kiesel, I just meant that the downsides for Kiesel weren't enough that I think it's not worth buying.

If you can find a used Kiesel that is the guitar you want, I think you should definitely buy that over a new one, but I would honestly do that with any guitar maker. Used stuff is almost always a better value buy all things equal.

Only so many people a year can buy from Simon, and each of his competitors. That's evidenced by the fact that most of the reputable small luthiers are backed up.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Speaking of used Carvins, I found a SWEET DC200 a while ago. I hope I can get the funds together to snag it, it would be an awesome guitar and it has NOTHING to do with that Dunce.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

strangers said:


> Let me clarify that by the personality related stuff, I meant the stuff mentioned in the post before. That being said, no, I still wouldn't care. He can trash other brands and other people all he wants, I don't care. If he starts calling for the reintroduction of Japanese internment camps, I'll stop buying his guitars. If he is just saying stuff in poor taste, I don't care. Somewhere in the middle there is a line, I don't know where it is.
> 
> If ALW starts a guitar company that makes reasonably priced guitars that I like, successfully sells them to enough people that I'm willing to risk buying one, and I feel so inclined, I'll buy one. I don't care if he made fun of Kiesel. I'm pretty sure a few pages back, at least once, he said something to the effect that anyone buying a Kiesel is suffering from undiagnosed mental retardation. I don't care. Some of his comments are funny, some aren't, none of them would affect me buying a guitar from him. They are just words on the internet, and there is no actionable harm behind them, it just doesn't matter to me.



It has nothing to do with poor taste. As the face of a company, you need to carry yourself a certain way. Look at how Mark carried himself when he was slaving away to make Carvin Guitars better: He was humble and very down to earth. Someone you could support. REALLY nice guy. Jeff? Shitting on other brands because "Our guitars are #rad !" That's bullshit and you know it. He shat on the ibanez guys for looking at his guitars so hard it became a short term meme (My guess was that they were trying to decide whether to file a lawsuit against Kiesel for stealing their RGD design and calling it an Aries).


----------



## strangers

MatiasTolkki said:


> It has nothing to do with poor taste. As the face of a company, you need to carry yourself a certain way. Look at how Mark carried himself when he was slaving away to make Carvin Guitars better: He was humble and very down to earth. Someone you could support. REALLY nice guy. Jeff? Shitting on other brands because "Our guitars are #rad !" That's bullshit and you know it. He shat on the ibanez guys for looking at his guitars so hard it became a short term meme (My guess was that they were trying to decide whether to file a lawsuit against Kiesel for stealing their RGD design and calling it an Aries).




And yet I bought a Kiesel when I would have never bought a Carvin. I think their old models look awful. The JB and California were the only Carvin's I would have considered, and I never saw a Carvin catalogue as a teenager and went, "Gotta get one of those!" 

His comments are lame, but I just don't care about them. A lot of other people don't care about them. Frankly, I doubt many people care half as much as you do. That's fine though, you are free to hate him as much as you want.

Their sales seem to be going strong. You can be a nice guy, with good business sense and completely fail to capitalize on a good market. From where I'm sitting in the deep south of the US, there doesn't seem to be any of shortage of people willing to completely get behind some blowhard idiot, and hand them their money and more. I threw my money to a different blowhard, and I for one, got something that justified the cost.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

strangers said:


> And yet I bought a Kiesel when I would have never bought a Carvin. I think their old models look awful. The JB and California were the only Carvin's I would have considered, and I never saw a Carvin catalogue as a teenager and went, "Gotta get one of those!"
> 
> His comments are lame, but I just don't care about them. A lot of other people don't care about them. Frankly, I doubt many people care half as much as you do. That's fine though, you are free to hate him as much as you want.
> 
> Their sales seem to be going strong. You can be a nice guy, with good business sense and completely fail to capitalize on a good market. From where I'm sitting in the deep south of the US, there doesn't seem to be any of shortage of people willing to completely get behind some blowhard idiot, and hand them their money and more. I threw my money to a different blowhard, and I for one, got something that justified the cost.



I own both a Carvin and a Kiesel. Which one gets more play? Carvin, but that also has to do with the active electronics on my JB200 giving me more tonal variety than my V220. If I was ever going to buy a used one, only Carvins for me.


----------



## Flappydoodle

spudmunkey said:


> Not saying I agree with their methods, or what it says about these other companys' Facebook presence (because they all out-do Kiesel on Instagram), but Kiesel has more followers on Facebook than PRS, Ibanez, Jackson and ESP. Not bad for a company whose guitars aren't sold in any store in the world*
> 
> *_not counting used guitars, or the possibe couple of asian countries in which they might or might not still have dealers_



It's exactly what I thought would be the case, but it's not surprising really. They're different audiences. I doubt anybody older than 40 is buying a Kiesel. They're marketing at kids in their bedrooms, and young adults, which is a pretty sensible strategy.



MaxOfMetal said:


> What does that mean exactly?
> 
> I bet more people in real life know about those other brands you listed.
> 
> My wife has a friend who's an "Instagram Influencer" and "model". She has almost 300k followers. She is also, not very financially stable. She makes next to nothing on that following, bar some free clothes or makeup and the occasionally flying out to a fancy location for a photo shoot.



Well that's relevant to the "influencer" friend making a living. But it has nothing to do with the companies paying her to market things to her followers.

What it does accomplish is making sure that anybody interested in guitars is exposed to Kiesel.

And yes, more people know about Ibanez, ESP etc - but the Ibanez and ESP custom shops cost 3-5x more than a Kiesel, so it's not really a fair comparison. I'm not defending Jeff being a total a-hole, but their marketing strategy is very solid. Appealing to the youngsters with fairly affordable custom guitars is a great model.



technomancer said:


> It means Kiesel spent some money to buy followers and likes... when maintaining cult-like guerilla marketing (which is definitely the Kiesel approach aka Jeff and "the good guy" bros vs everyone else) it is pretty common practice



Absolutely it's common practice. But I think Kiesel have done it particularly well. You can't be into any sort of guitar stuff on social media without seeing them everywhere.



narad said:


> And of course we understand from Kim Kardasian and Logan Paul that the number of followers on social media is highly indicative of their professionalism and quality of the service.



Funny point, but irrelevant 

Most people aren't buying on professionalism and quality. They're buying because of awareness, and because something is cool or trendy. The Kiesel guitars are status symbols now, being marketed by "cool" "influencers". And at the end of the day, they're very affordable semi-custom shops and mostly good quality, so it's not a total fail on that front.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Funny point, but irrelevant
> 
> Most people aren't buying on professionalism and quality. They're buying because of awareness, and because something is cool or trendy. The Kiesel guitars are status symbols now, being marketed by "cool" "influencers". And at the end of the day, they're very affordable semi-custom shops and mostly good quality, so it's not a total fail on that front.



Yea, there's definitely more joke than substance in that comment, but Kiesel guitars as a status symbol? I definitely wouldn't associate the social media followers with prestige -- what artists are choosing those guitars is a much bigger sign of status IMO. And they're bombing there.

Kiesel's the "Okay, I've outgrown the beginner ~<$700 guitar I got for my birthday, and I've always wanted a custom guitar, what can I afford?" option. Then onward and upward to nicer customs as time goes on.


----------



## Edika

Cynicanal said:


> What Rich does isn't relevant to me because I don't like most Ibanez guitars (not a fan of super-flat back-of-neck shapes, and I prefer neck-through fixed-bridge over bolt-on tremolo [and also I like hyphens {and also nesting parenthesis}]). He has a business that seems to do OK for him, so good for him!



No other comment in this discussion aside from the fact you're using nested parenthesis in the wrong order . It's {[()]}.


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> Where is there a case of them not honoring the 10-day trial without letting the customer know in advance that one of their options nullified it?



There are a few. I typed in “Kiesel return” and here’s the first incident that popped up: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/

In this case, the didn’t deny the return outright. They said that the 10 day trial period isn’t actually 10 days. It’s 10 days from when you receive it until they have it back in the shop.


----------



## Hollowway

Probably beating a dead horse at this point, but here’s another fiasco related to the return period. In this case, the option was not made clear. This is a guy we’re know from sso and the Kiesel bbs.

I should point out again that I am not a Kiesel hater. I do like their instruments, and the business idea as a whole. But, I am consistently baffled why they do not make reasonable attempts to keep a long time customer. Or try to work things out with customers. Even to the point where one guy, who owns like 10 Carvin/kiesels, asked to have Jeff not sign his Aries run guitar. Jeff said no way. He was going to sign it, and it’s a no-return item. The guy complained, and once again got his posts deleted and banned. To me that just makes no sense. Again, they’re leaving money on the table by carrying on like this. For those that continually challenge every story of a pissed off customer, and defend Kiesel, keep in mind that if Kiesel “wins” the argument, and the customer is banned from ordering from them again, or even just left to be pissed off, then what good is that? How does that help Kiesel? And, while it’s true that there are bad customers, and every business needs to draw the line somewhere, why does Kiesel have so many horror stories, across so many forums and FB pages, whereas other reputable companies do not? 

@Cynicanal I’m going to direct this at you, specifically, because you challenge every criticism of Kiesel: do you feel that there is nothing Kiesel can do to improve their customer service, and that they are operating at the same high leve they always have? If you do, then I understand your defense of them. If you do not, then we are in agreement - I don’t have any hate toward them, but I want them to start making better decisions for their business.


----------



## Hollowway

strangers said:


> First off, if something happens to Simon, then I'm not getting my guitar, and there is a good chance that I won't get a refund. It could be a car accident, or legal issues, who knows. But when it's a one person operation that's the reality. If you have a Kiesel on order and Jeff kicks it, there is probably a pretty good chance the company moves on.
> 
> I'm pretty sure there are plenty of examples of one man shops where the guy was killing it, only for things to change later on. Someone was always the first person to get ripped off. I don't anticipate this happening with him, but it's a nonzero chance.
> 
> Simon is out of the country, so there are the issues related to shipping a guitar to me from across the globe. He's apparently willing to eat the cost in that case, asa evidenced in thet padalka thread. Even then, I still had my money tied up for almost a year, so there is the opportunity cost associated with that, where I can bill the Kiesel to a card.
> 
> Simon books a year of orders at a time, so if you don't get in the window, you aren't getting a guitar, and you aren't getting one as quick even if you do.
> 
> All that said, at this point I would be much more likely to get another Padalka before a Kiesel. I agree that if you only were going to buy one, that the Padalka is more appealing. My next guitar probably won't be a Kiesel, I just meant that the downsides for Kiesel weren't enough that I think it's not worth buying.
> 
> If you can find a used Kiesel that is the guitar you want, I think you should definitely buy that over a new one, but I would honestly do that with any guitar maker. Used stuff is almost always a better value buy all things equal.
> 
> Only so many people a year can buy from Simon, and each of his competitors. That's evidenced by the fact that most of the reputable small luthiers are backed up.



Ah, I get where you’re coming from. Those are all really good points - and the reason I’m petrified to buy a custom that isn’t already in stock!


----------



## strangers

Hollowway said:


> Ah, I get where you’re coming from. Those are all really good points - and the reason I’m petrified to buy a custom that isn’t already in stock!




Fortunately for Padalka fans, there are some incredible in-stocks on the way.


----------



## prlgmnr

I find it hard to believe that anyone exists who both can watch a Jared Dines video _and_ afford to buy a guitar from Kiesel.


----------



## Quantumface

prlgmnr said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone exists who both can watch a Jared Dines video _and_ afford to buy a guitar from Kiesel.



Haha dude is dreadful. Or Steve Terryberry who is also endorsed by Kiesel, or as I like to call him the "Fred" of the YouTube guitar world. Abysmal.


----------



## -JeKo-

Greetings! The guy with the cracked ebony fretboard here again.

I've been following this thread for some time now with great interest and I can definitely relate to some of the posts here. Anyway, they finally agreed to build me a new guitar. It took a couple of posts on their Facebook page as well as their FB-group (which I've since been kicked out of). I also sent Jeff a direct message but didn't like his response. He basically said that gluing the fretboard is enough and they've been more than fair with me already. There was also a guy in Germany whose ebony fretboard on his brand new Vader cracked the same way as mine did. I'm pretty sure the ebony Kiesel uses isn't a very good quality or isn't dried properly.

After the whole Facebook episode, their customer service manager approached me and offered a new build. I was glad, especially since the model I had had been discontinued for over a year. The guitar is now in my hands and I'll probably sell it to a friend of mine since I don't want to own anything from Kiesel and will never order another guitar from them. If I spot a used one with nice specs for a good price, I may pull the trigger. Ordering a new Kiesel internationally isn't something I'm willing to do though.

However, I'm grateful for what they did in the end and wish them all the best!


----------



## MatiasTolkki

prlgmnr said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone exists who both can watch a Jared Dines video _and_ afford to buy a guitar from Kiesel.



Jared Dines is a putz who can fuck the hell right off. Steve Terrberry is a nerd and how he got endorsed by Kiesel is because of his Youtube outreach and that alone. Other than that, he'd have to buy them at full cost like the rest of us.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

-JeKo- said:


> Greetings! The guy with the cracked ebony fretboard here again.
> 
> I've been following this thread for some time now with great interest and I can definitely relate to some of the posts here. Anyway, they finally agreed to build me a new guitar. It took a couple of posts on their Facebook page as well as their FB-group (which I've since been kicked out of). I also sent Jeff a direct message but didn't like his response. He basically said that gluing the fretboard is enough and they've been more than fair with me already. There was also a guy in Germany whose ebony fretboard on his brand new Vader cracked the same way as mine did. I'm pretty sure the ebony Kiesel uses isn't a very good quality or isn't dried properly.
> 
> After the whole Facebook episode, their customer service manager approached me and offered a new build. I was glad, especially since the model I had had been discontinued for over a year. The guitar is now in my hands and I'll probably sell it to a friend of mine since I don't want to own anything from Kiesel and will never order another guitar from them. If I spot a used one with nice specs for a good price, I may pull the trigger. Ordering a new Kiesel internationally isn't something I'm willing to do though.
> 
> However, I'm grateful for what they did in the end and wish them all the best!



Another unhappy customer. Great job to Kiesel, shitting on another fan of the brand because of Jeff's ego.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> Probably beating a dead horse at this point, but here’s another fiasco related to the return period. In this case, the option was not made clear. This is a guy we’re know from sso and the Kiesel bbs.
> 
> I should point out again that I am not a Kiesel hater. I do like their instruments, and the business idea as a whole. But, I am consistently baffled why they do not make reasonable attempts to keep a long time customer. Or try to work things out with customers. Even to the point where one guy, who owns like 10 Carvin/kiesels, asked to have Jeff not sign his Aries run guitar. Jeff said no way. He was going to sign it, and it’s a no-return item. The guy complained, and once again got his posts deleted and banned. To me that just makes no sense. Again, they’re leaving money on the table by carrying on like this. For those that continually challenge every story of a pissed off customer, and defend Kiesel, keep in mind that if Kiesel “wins” the argument, and the customer is banned from ordering from them again, or even just left to be pissed off, then what good is that? How does that help Kiesel? And, while it’s true that there are bad customers, and every business needs to draw the line somewhere, why does Kiesel have so many horror stories, across so many forums and FB pages, whereas other reputable companies do not?
> 
> @Cynicanal I’m going to direct this at you, specifically, because you challenge every criticism of Kiesel: do you feel that there is nothing Kiesel can do to improve their customer service, and that they are operating at the same high leve they always have? If you do, then I understand your defense of them. If you do not, then we are in agreement - I don’t have any hate toward them, but I want them to start making better decisions for their business.



I'd just like to reiterate again that I dont hate Kiesel, I have JEFF Kiesel. I like Chris and Mike, and I like the 2 I have but I'll never buy a new guitar from them again, like Jeko there. I may even sell my V220 if the right guitar pops up and I'd rather have that over the V220.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> There are a few. I typed in “Kiesel return” and here’s the first incident that popped up: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/
> 
> In this case, the didn’t deny the return outright. They said that the 10 day trial period isn’t actually 10 days. It’s 10 days from when you receive it until they have it back in the shop.


Read further into that thread -- he shipped it after having it for 13 days, not 10.



> @Cynicanal I’m going to direct this at you, specifically, because you challenge every criticism of Kiesel: do you feel that there is nothing Kiesel can do to improve their customer service, and that they are operating at the same high leve they always have? If you do, then I understand your defense of them. If you do not, then we are in agreement - I don’t have any hate toward them, but I want them to start making better decisions for their business.


My experience, and that of friends (including one who ordered an Op. 50 control layout), who have ordered Kiesel since the name-switch has been nothing but positive with regards to customer service. 

This is the internet -- we all know that someone can come up with a half-accurate rant and have hundreds of people saying "YEAH, FUCK THAT COMPANY!" even when the facts as presented are skewed half-truths (for an example, see the TGP thread you linked). Aside from the awful photomatch blue/white burst fiasco and the Aries neck-pocket design issue, this nonsense always seems to end up being people trying to score points on the internet.


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> Read further into that thread -- he shipped it after having it for 13 days, not 10.
> 
> 
> My experience, and that of friends (including one who ordered an Op. 50 control layout), who have ordered Kiesel since the name-switch has been nothing but positive with regards to customer service.
> 
> This is the internet -- we all know that someone can come up with a half-accurate rant and have hundreds of people saying "YEAH, FUCK THAT COMPANY!" even when the facts as presented are skewed half-truths (for an example, see the TGP thread you linked). Aside from the awful photomatch blue/white burst fiasco and the Aries neck-pocket design issue, this nonsense always seems to end up being people trying to score points on the internet.



Everything's positive, until it isn't. Everyone's defensive about a brand before they're screwed over. 

I don't want to make @Jonathan20022 repeat himself too much, but the dude put in a shitton of money into many of the most high-end Kiesels over a long period of time, but eventually wound up getting shit treatment. There's no sure-fire way to get proper guitars with Jeff, not even giving him like $10k+ in business. So before you dismiss Kiesel hate as some sort of internet phenomenon, just realize that a lot of these guys were just like you at one point in time.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I just don't get why people stump so hard for guitar brands these days. 

I can understand a small luthier you develop a close professional relationship with over emails, text messages and phone calls spread over years on a truly unique and special instrument with deep personal connections. 

But you buy Kiesels, or many others, with a few mouse clicks, maybe a quick phone call with a _sales representative_. You're just an order number. 

I can understand being attached to a brand because you love the guitars, and recommend them to others. Especially if you've played them almost exclusively for years. I'm not going to pretend to not have something of a bias for my favorite brands when folks ask for guitar recommendations, but I'm not going to pretend they're my friend who I need to defend from any and all real or perceived issues.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just don't get why people stump so hard for guitar brands these days.
> 
> I can understand a small luthier you develop a close professional relationship with over emails, text messages and phone calls spread over years on a truly unique and special instrument with deep personal connections.
> 
> But you buy Kiesels, or many others, with a few mouse clicks, maybe a quick phone call with a _sales representative_. You're just an order number.
> 
> I can understand being attached to a brand because you love the guitars, and recommend them to others. Especially if you've played them almost exclusively for years. I'm not going to pretend to not have something of a bias for my favorite brands when folks ask for guitar recommendations, but I'm not going to pretend they're my friend who I need to defend from any and all real or perceived issues.



My reason for stumping for Ibanez (and a little bit of Caparison) is it's an adopted hometown pride kinda thing (Hoshino gakki and Caparison are based here in Nagoya). I've been living here too long; I am proud of Nagoya and that helps me stump for Ibanez just a bit more than other brands


----------



## coupe89

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just don't get why people stump so hard for guitar brands these days.
> 
> I can understand a small luthier you develop a close professional relationship with over emails, text messages and phone calls spread over years on a truly unique and special instrument with deep personal connections.
> 
> But you buy Kiesels, or many others, with a few mouse clicks, maybe a quick phone call with a _sales representative_. You're just an order number.
> 
> I can understand being attached to a brand because you love the guitars, and recommend them to others. Especially if you've played them almost exclusively for years. I'm not going to pretend to not have something of a bias for my favorite brands when folks ask for guitar recommendations, but I'm not going to pretend they're my friend who I need to defend from any and all real or perceived issues.



I wonder what these guys would do if they were Gibson fanboys it would be a 24/7 job for them.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Cynicanal said:


> My experience, and that of friends (including one who ordered an Op. 50 control layout), who have ordered Kiesel since the name-switch has been nothing but positive with regards to customer service.
> 
> This is the internet -- we all know that someone can come up with a half-accurate rant and have hundreds of people saying "YEAH, FUCK THAT COMPANY!" even when the facts as presented are skewed half-truths (for an example, see the TGP thread you linked). Aside from the awful photomatch blue/white burst fiasco and the Aries neck-pocket design issue, this nonsense always seems to end up being people trying to score points on the internet.



Just chiming in since Narad tagged me, I'll never be tired of throwing my two cents into the Kiesel conversation. I thought exactly the same way as you did and I was talking Narad into buying one back when I got my Koa K Series because it was a fantastic instrument and still is.

Tell me if this is me trying to score internet points
- 3k K Series with missing specs
- Dings and Impressions in the body/neck
- Warranty Repair returned the instrument in WORSE shape with even more damage than before
- Dodged for close to 2 weeks on a solution
- Forced to resort to a chargeback in order to get my money back
- Get mocked about my financial status by the guy I gave several thousand dollars who preaches about "joining the family"
- To spite me, forces me to pay return shipping for damaged fucking goods

These are bullet points because I feel like I've retold this story to people who message me and on this thread/elsewhere countless times already. If you care enough for the full details feel free to look for it.

Yeah me and all my friends had great experiences, then I got fucked over and had to take matters into my own hands to get my money back to me. No offense but you're simply a fan boy who loves the experience, I can relate because I remember my posts defending Kiesel like yours just two years ago. Stop dismissing legitimate reasons to dislike this company because you were the exception in a pile of bad experiences. You're not going to convince guys like me and others that Kiesel turned a new leaf when on a weekly basis there is more *legitimate *cause to believe otherwise.

Kiesel doesn't give a shit about you or your loyalty, any sense of "family" you get from ordering a Kiesel is fraudulent. So unless you're an artist getting hook ups then just know that your loyalty will get you nowhere if things go south. Unless you act like a limp noodle and bend over for however Jeff decides to handle the problem. I sincerely hope you never have to go through a bad guitar regardless, but if you ever do then don't say no one didn't tell you so.


----------



## Randy

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just don't get why people stump so hard for guitar brands these days.
> 
> I can understand a small luthier you develop a close professional relationship with over emails, text messages and phone calls spread over years on a truly unique and special instrument with deep personal connections.
> 
> But you buy Kiesels, or many others, with a few mouse clicks, maybe a quick phone call with a _sales representative_. You're just an order number.
> 
> I can understand being attached to a brand because you love the guitars, and recommend them to others. Especially if you've played them almost exclusively for years. I'm not going to pretend to not have something of a bias for my favorite brands when folks ask for guitar recommendations, but I'm not going to pretend they're my friend who I need to defend from any and all real or perceived issues.



Show me a truly objective person and lets work backward from there 

I can't be fuckered to find the thread now but the guy with the buckeye burl top that recently posted a NGD seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Ordered a pretty elaborate build and it showed some flaws, along with some decent effort to repair those flaws before it went out but they're present nonetheless. Conclusion he posted (paraphrased), "Hey, I knew it was a big ask, I'm mostly happy with the results but I also knew what I was getting into when I ordered from Kiesel so I'll just enjoy the guitar because trying to deal with them on a return will only make it worse."

*There's nothing wrong with buying from Kiesel (hell, I've got some build ideas floating around) but do so with a tremendous caveat emptor; and consider this thread exactly that. *

I have played and seen some great guitars come from there, and I've seen customer experiences that have gone completely tits up and everything in between. In 2018, you're still hard pressed to get a semi-custom guitar with some of the features Kiesel offer at a similar price and a similar margin of likelihood it'll turn out 'okay'. But know you might be the 1 in 5 that gets a guitar with a noticeable flaw and know that if you complain, you might be the 1 in 2 that is insulted, shamed on the internet and offered no recompense.

I think this thread and this forum as a whole illuatrates that dichotomy just fine. But if you're going to slither into this forum for a 'hot take' about how your anectodal experience with Kiesel was 100% perfect, which means everyone who's voiced a complaint is overly dramatic or just making stuff up, pack up your holier than thou, flat earther bullshit wagon and fuck on outta here.

I complain about the SSO pile-on brigade as much as anyone else but it's self evident that there always IS a rational counter argument made or to be made. But whitewashing dozens of experiences cumulatively worth tens of thousands of dollars as just "trying to score points on the internet" is not that.


----------



## metalstrike

I’m just happy that I’ve decided against doing a Kiesel build that I was very close to doing a few weeks ago, and I can thank another thread on SS.org for that. I liked my Carvin when I owned it but Carvin is dead. The fact that every time I’ve seen Jeff in a video, he always gave me such a disingenuous vibe and that certainly doesn’t help his case for getting my business.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Randy said:


> Show me a truly objective person and lets work backward from there
> 
> I can't be fuckered to find the thread now but the guy with the buckeye burl top that recently posted a NGD seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Ordered a pretty elaborate build and it showed some flaws, along with some decent effort to repair those flaws before it went out but they're present nonetheless. Conclusion he posted (paraphrased), "Hey, I knew it was a big ask, I'm mostly happy with the results but I also knew what I was getting into when I ordered from Kiesel so I'll just enjoy the guitar because trying to deal with them on a return will only make it worse."
> 
> *There's nothing wrong with buying from Kiesel (hell, I've got some build ideas floating around) but do so with a tremendous caveat emptor; and consider this thread exactly that. *
> 
> I have played and seen some great guitars come from there, and I've seen customer experiences that have gone completely tits up and everything in between. In 2018, you're still hard pressed to get a semi-custom guitar with some of the features Kiesel offer at a similar price and a similar margin of likelihood it'll turn out 'okay'. But know you might be the 1 in 5 that gets a guitar with a noticeable flaw and know that if you complain, you might be the 1 in 2 that is insulted, shamed on the internet and offered no recompense.
> 
> I think this thread and this forum as a whole illuatrates that dichotomy just fine. But if you're going to slither into this forum for a 'hot take' about how your anectodal experience with Kiesel was 100% perfect, which means everyone who's voiced a complaint is overly dramatic or just making stuff up, pack up your holier than thou, flat earther bullshit wagon and fuck on outta here.
> 
> I complain about the SSO pile-on brigade as much as anyone else but it's self evident that there always IS a rational counter argument made or to be made. But whitewashing dozens of experiences cumulatively worth tens of thousands of dollars as just "trying to score points on the internet" is not that.



Sorry but even though there aren't as many options on their builder (not like you need crazy wood choices), I can get a bare bones Fujigen strat FROM THEIR CUSTOM SHOP for around 140,000 yen, cheaper than most Kiesels. Come at me bro.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

metalstrike said:


> I’m just happy that I’ve decided against doing a Kiesel build that I was very close to doing a few weeks ago, and I can thank another thread on SS.org for that. I liked my Carvin when I owned it but Carvin is dead. The fact that every time I’ve seen Jeff in a video, he always gave me such a disingenuous vibe and that certainly doesn’t help his case for getting my business.



Thats exactly why I feel fine playing my JB200, and dirty playing my V220, that bastard's name is on the headstock.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Sorry but even though there aren't as many options on their builder (not like you need crazy wood choices), I can get a bare bones Fujigen strat FROM THEIR CUSTOM SHOP for around 140,000 yen, cheaper than most Kiesels. Come at me bro.



You're really worse than most of the Kiesel-bros. It's like you're compelled to argue, even with those who are actually agreeing with you and supporting your net argument. I don't get it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're really worse than most of the Kiesel-bros. It's like you're compelled to argue, even with those who are actually agreeing with you and supporting your net argument. I don't get it.



Just because I have a problem with one thing that he said doesn't make me automatically disagree with everything else he said. I was making a point about semi-custom shops and prices.


----------



## mastapimp

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're really worse than most of the Kiesel-bros. It's like you're compelled to argue, even with those who are actually agreeing with you and supporting your net argument. I don't get it.



Noticed that as well...I don't even read his replies because the variety of his posts are limited to:
-Japan is expensive and my options are limited
-Jeff Kiesel is the devil
-I love my JB200
-random hype-man comment to back up each additional bad kiesel experience with his sentiment

He's already made his point 20 times over and needs to grow up and move on. I also don't care for Kiesel, but if I were to choose to comment, I'd make my statement and be done with it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

mastapimp said:


> Noticed that as well...I don't even read his replies because the variety of his posts are limited to:
> -Japan is expensive and my options are limited
> -Jeff Kiesel is the devil
> -I love my JB200
> -random hype-man comment to back up each additional bad kiesel experience with his sentiment
> 
> He's already made his point 20 times over and needs to grow up and move on. I also don't care for Kiesel, but if I were to choose to comment, I'd make my statement and be done with it.



good thing i'm not you.


----------



## Lemons

MatiasTolkki said:


> *white noise*


----------



## xzacx

mastapimp said:


> Noticed that as well...I don't even read his replies because the variety of his posts are limited to:
> -Japan is expensive and my options are limited
> -Jeff Kiesel is the devil
> -I love my JB200
> -random hype-man comment to back up each additional bad kiesel experience with his sentiment
> 
> He's already made his point 20 times over and needs to grow up and move on. I also don't care for Kiesel, but if I were to choose to comment, I'd make my statement and be done with it.



How could you forget about his complaints regarding the discontinuing of those butt-ugly 22-polepiece pickups?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Okay everyone, the point has been made. Quit with the pile-on. I'm sorry I said anything.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

xzacx said:


> How could you forget about his complaints regarding the discontinuing of those butt-ugly 22-polepiece pickups?



Who cares what they look like? They sound better than anything Jeff's empty head has come up with.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're really worse than most of the Kiesel-bros. It's like you're compelled to argue, even with those who are actually agreeing with you and supporting your net argument. I don't get it.


#doAShotV220JB200Carvin


----------



## xzacx

MatiasTolkki said:


> Who cares what they look like? They sound better than anything Jeff's empty head has come up with.



Right on cue.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Is any of this really affecting business though? In a recent status Kiesel boasted something like 6-700 builds in progress.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> Is any of this really affecting business though? In a recent status Kiesel boasted something like 6-700 builds in progress.



I doubt it. At least enough to "hurt" them by any stretch.

That said, I think thier brags are primarily bullshit. They lie far too often to be taken at face value.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Yea, there's definitely more joke than substance in that comment, but Kiesel guitars as a status symbol? I definitely wouldn't associate the social media followers with prestige -- what artists are choosing those guitars is a much bigger sign of status IMO. And they're bombing there.
> 
> Kiesel's the "Okay, I've outgrown the beginner ~<$700 guitar I got for my birthday, and I've always wanted a custom guitar, what can I afford?" option. Then onward and upward to nicer customs as time goes on.



Absolutely they're a status symbols. The fact that you said "beginner $700 guitar for my birthday" shows how out of touch the SSO crown is, lol! A birthday present started guitar is maybe $200 at most. There are guitars on Amazon for $75, or eBay for $50. The vast majority of guitarists will never go onward and upward to nicer customs, especially the people that Kiesel is directly marketing to (the people who think Jared and StevieT are amazing and hilarious!!)

Something is only worth showing off if others recognise it as so - thus, it needs to occupy a price point where it isn't too easily accessible, but isn't cheap either. I think Kiesel has nailed down that niche pretty nicely.



MaxOfMetal said:


> I just don't get why people stump so hard for guitar brands these days.



Because people attach their ego to their decisions - especially when money is involved.

It actually takes a lot of self-confidence to spend money on something, then be unhappy with it and believe it was a mistake. Most people will convince themselves that they made the right decision, and they will challenge any opposing viewpoints because nobody likes to make mistakes. It hurts your ego when somebody points out that you spent $2K on something that wasn't good.

It's the same mentality behind console wars, Canon vs Nikon and all sorts of other silly rivalries.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Absolutely they're a status symbols. The fact that you said "beginner $700 guitar for my birthday" shows how out of touch the SSO crown is, lol! A birthday present started guitar is maybe $200 at most. There are guitars on Amazon for $75, or eBay for $50. The vast majority of guitarists will never go onward and upward to nicer customs, especially the people that Kiesel is directly marketing to (the people who think Jared and StevieT are amazing and hilarious!!)
> .



Kiesel Guitars: a status symbol to people that play $200 guitars.
Hyundai Motors: a status symbol to people that have to walk.
Olive Garden: a status symbol to people who eat off the dollar menu.

Doesn't really check out.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I think jared and Steviet are amazing and hilarious


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> Absolutely they're a status symbols. The fact that you said "beginner $700 guitar for my birthday" shows how out of touch the SSO crown is, lol! A birthday present started guitar is maybe $200 at most. There are guitars on Amazon for $75, or eBay for $50. The vast majority of guitarists will never go onward and upward to nicer customs, especially the people that Kiesel is directly marketing to (the people who think Jared and StevieT are amazing and hilarious!!)
> 
> Something is only worth showing off if others recognise it as so - thus, it needs to occupy a price point where it isn't too easily accessible, but isn't cheap either. I think Kiesel has nailed down that niche pretty nicely.



To be fair to @narad he did say "~<$700", so _less than_ $700, which $200 also happens to fall in line with.

I wouldn't say the between $1500 and $2000 that most Kiesels fall in at is something so lofty. They even offer payment plans and in-house credit. Unless you're sitting at a 510, you're getting that fancy Aries in 80's vomit for nothing down for two years.

This is off-the-shelf Schecter and LTD money. Heck, Ibanez will sell you an Indo for almost that. 

I think they're very accessible, more so than a lot of other stuff out there. What they seem to do is play up how special they are regardless of price. 

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm sure some do see them as status symbols. I guess the idea of that, as much as I understand it, gets me.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> that bastard's name is on the headstock.



If it helps you cope at all, that is also Mark's last name, the man who made your JB200C and V200 possible in the first place.


----------



## spudmunkey

prlgmnr said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone exists who both can watch a Jared Dines video _and_ afford to buy a guitar from Kiesel.



Being able to scrounge up the money to make a purchase isn't the same as actually being able to afford it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Kiesel Guitars: a status symbol to people that play $200 guitars.
> Hyundai Motors: a status symbol to people that have to walk.
> Olive Garden: a status symbol to people who eat off the dollar menu.
> 
> Doesn't really check out.



Why not?

Those companies are all profitable, no? Lots of people are pretty happy when they can go to Olive Garden or get a new car even if it's a mid-range brand. They won't ever get to the PRS private stock level of restaurant. Most people never do. There are a hell of a lot more $200 and $700 guitars sold than $4000 guitars, and the profits to be made are much larger.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but you are sounding like a massive snob mocking cheap things.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> To be fair to @narad he did say "~<$700", so _less than_ $700, which $200 also happens to fall in line with.
> 
> I wouldn't say the between $1500 and $2000 that most Kiesels fall in at is something so lofty. They even offer payment plans and in-house credit. Unless you're sitting at a 510, you're getting that fancy Aries in 80's vomit for nothing down for two years.
> 
> This is off-the-shelf Schecter and LTD money. Heck, Ibanez will sell you an Indo for almost that.
> 
> I think they're very accessible, more so than a lot of other stuff out there. What they seem to do is play up how special they are regardless of price.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm sure some do see them as status symbols. I guess the idea of that, as much as I understand it, gets me.



Right - we are saying the same thing. They're good value. Not that expensive really.

Things don't need to be expensive to be status symbols. Think of those famous Australian boots that every single college girl wore for years (their name is spam filtered, LOL). They're about $100, which pretty much anybody can afford. But they became a status symbol to say "look, I can afford to spend $100 on boots".

In fact, if something is too expensive, it's hard for it to become a recognised status symbol. Your average guitar player wouldn't recognise a Suhr or Mayones, but Jeff is trying to ensure that they *will* recognise Kiesel and he is hyping it up so that they think it's something high end.

That's the crux of it - appear high end and exclusive, while not actually being too exclusive to put up barriers to entry.



Lorcan Ward said:


> Is any of this really affecting business though? In a recent status Kiesel boasted something like 6-700 builds in progress.



LOL, no it's not affecting business. As I pointed out earlier, this thread has 180,000 views. And it's a 107 page ramble-fest, which absolutely nobody visiting by Google is going to read through. Not to mention, the links to photos in the first post are dead, which lowers the impact significantly.

Also, when I googled "kiesel guitars", this thread wasn't in the first two pages. Of course google varies for everybody, but it does indicate that this thread isn't particularly high ranking.

Jeff is absolutely killing it on social media and with getting cool endorsees and Youtubers on board. Forums barely get any attention nowadays.

StevieT Kiesel review, 410,000 views: 

Jared Dines Kiesel review, 750,000 views: 

And obviously a view is far more powerful than a text post with broken pictures


----------



## bostjan

Why are Stevie T and Jared Dines so popular? It seems most people around these parts find them annoying. Is the key to youtube success to be annoying? I honestly think Stevie has a few moments here and there and can actually play like a mofo, but most of the time, he seems like he's doing a bad Jim Carey impersonation in his videos. You think back to when he was ~20 years old and posted his "When the Saints Go Marching in" video - no weird rubberface expressions, just shredding. ...and that video still only has ~100k views, despite his rise to stardom. I think that people *want* the annoying stuff in with their videos.

Translate that to guitars. The controversy around Kiesel and their atrocious customer service might be doing them some good, actually. The more people complain about Kiesel, the more people know about their brand. People who hear negative stuff about a brand might only be 10% likely to seek out that brand, but people with no knowledge of the brand are 0% likely to search for it. So, Kiesel is getting positive reviews from these youtubers who have large audiences of kids who like to be annoyed - it's brilliant when you think about it.


----------



## xzacx

Flappydoodle said:


> Why not?
> 
> Those companies are all profitable, no? Lots of people are pretty happy when they can go to Olive Garden or get a new car even if it's a mid-range brand. They won't ever get to the PRS private stock level of restaurant. Most people never do. There are a hell of a lot more $200 and $700 guitars sold than $4000 guitars, and the profits to be made are much larger.
> 
> Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but you are sounding like a massive snob mocking cheap things.



I didn't see him mocking cheap things. The point is that "actual" status symbols aren't based on a sliding scale of things that are slightly better than what you have at the moment. If that's the basis, practically anything is a status symbol of _something_. And in many ways, that's probably accurate, but not the way Kiesel is being presented as such.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

bostjan said:


> Why are Stevie T and Jared Dines so popular? It seems most people around these parts find them annoying. Is the key to youtube success to be annoying? I honestly think Stevie has a few moments here and there and can actually play like a mofo, but most of the time, he seems like he's doing a bad Jim Carey impersonation in his videos. You think back to when he was ~20 years old and posted his "When the Saints Go Marching in" video - no weird rubberface expressions, just shredding. ...and that video still only has ~100k views, despite his rise to stardom. I think that people *want* the annoying stuff in with their videos.
> 
> Translate that to guitars. The controversy around Kiesel and their atrocious customer service might be doing them some good, actually. The more people complain about Kiesel, the more people know about their brand. People who hear negative stuff about a brand might only be 10% likely to seek out that brand, but people with no knowledge of the brand are 0% likely to search for it. So, Kiesel is getting positive reviews from these youtubers who have large audiences of kids who like to be annoyed - it's brilliant when you think about it.


Well, just look at Adam Dutkiewicz... I think you can easily draw a correlation between him as well as KSE's popularity and the influx of goofy guitarists on YouTube.


----------



## Randy

bostjan said:


> Is the key to youtube success to be annoying?



Yes.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Why not?
> 
> Those companies are all profitable, no? Lots of people are pretty happy when they can go to Olive Garden or get a new car even if it's a mid-range brand. They won't ever get to the PRS private stock level of restaurant. Most people never do. There are a hell of a lot more $200 and $700 guitars sold than $4000 guitars, and the profits to be made are much larger.



A company's profits has nothing to do with their products being a status symbol. The opposite, more often than not.



Flappydoodle said:


> Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but you are sounding like a massive snob mocking cheap things.



I'm probably a massive snob too but nothing here to indicate that. It's just that status symbol _has_ a meaning that I feel you're not using, or contorting it to be a definition that very few people would actually agree with.

Let's go to the books:
"a possession that is taken to indicate a person's wealth or high social or professional status."
Is owning a Ferrari often taken to indicate a person's wealth/social status? Yes. Is owning a rolex? Yes. Is some giant diamond ring? Yes. Is a Louis Vitton bag? Yes.

Imagine someone who owns these, then imagine them going about the rest of their daily routine. What's it like? All types of imagery comes to mind...a mansion home, a sweater vest, playing some golf with the boys, bottles of Cristal, a pool with palm trees.

It doesn't mean that's accurate for all people who own these -- of course it's extremely far from it. But it's these associations, that wealthy well-off people live this kind of life, have these kinds of things.

Now imagine the life of someone that owns a Kiesel guitar. Unwashed clothes thrown in the corner. A poster of a girl in a bikini. Lots of Axe body spray. A crumbled report card with a bunch of a C+s on it. Remorse.

I kid, but at the very minimum, there's nothing about a Kiesel that I would associate with someone being well-off, even comparatively to those buying cheaper guitars. They are cheap guitars in the larger spectrum of guitars -- even mainstream brands like Fender, Gibson, Jackson, Ibanez, ESP, PRS, each offer many, many production guitars, often made overseas, that are more expensive than many Kiesels. This situation makes it extremely unlikely that Kiesels will ever be thought of as status symbols by a large portion of the guitar-playing population. Most people who can choose guitars choose not to choose Kiesel.

In short, the "status" part of "status symbol" often refers to the upper end of possible statuses, and not just all statuses that are above affording $200 instruments.


----------



## CapinCripes

Flappydoodle said:


> LOL, no it's not affecting business.


 Jeff Kiesel's antics lost at least one prospective customer, me. I was in the market for a CS624 a few months ago and the customer service shenanagans directly led to me putting that idea on ice and grabbing a Carvin V220 That's older than I am instead. Hell, i was thinking about getting a cs624 AND a x220 both built but instead i junked that whole idea so as not to give Jeff any of my money. I regret nothing and don't see myself making any purchases that would put money in the company as it stands now.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@narad 

As part of that status symbol thing, I'd just like to point out that I was digging through Digimart the other day, curious as to what used Carvins are out there in the wild over here. Ishibashi, for a second, had a Bolt T... 54000 yen. Sold immediately. There are some old used Ibanez 540S models that go for that. Name recognition is like zero over here so the guitars are much cheaper, unless you wanna go to Guitar planet, where they are horribly overcharging for a DC400.

There is also a DC200 that has been sitting in Tokyo for months now, and I plan to go check it out next sunday since I'll be up there. Been eyeing that thing for a long time. Maybe it's a way to get rid of my V220 for a Carvin? I'll decide when I play the thing. I had a meh experience yesterday with an Ibanez 540R HH, modded like crazy and the shop still wanted 49,000 yen for it. meh.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@spudmunkey 

I know Mark's name is Kiesel, but the name change meant the end of Mark's leading the company, which is why I feel so dirty. Also, it doesn't help that they dont put belly cuts standard on these things. I am working out now trying to lose a lot of weight but I'm only at the beginning of that long road so playing that thing standing is a pain in the ass.


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> @narad
> 
> As part of that status symbol thing, I'd just like to point out that I was digging through Digimart the other day, curious as to what used Carvins are out there in the wild over here. Ishibashi, for a second, had a Bolt T... 54000 yen. Sold immediately. There are some old used Ibanez 540S models that go for that. Name recognition is like zero over here so the guitars are much cheaper, unless you wanna go to Guitar planet, where they are horribly overcharging for a DC400.



Yea, I feel like the guitar world status symbol in Japan is playing your Fender Custom Shop into a Two Rock/Fuchs.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Yea, I feel like the guitar world status symbol in Japan is playing your Fender Custom Shop into a Two Rock/Fuchs.



Basically if you dont play ESP you dont play metal, and Fender and Gibson are the pinnacles of "great" guitars (I hate both brands). That was part of my draw to Carvin because there are so few out here. Ibanez is almost on the same level though, lots of cool used models out there but guitarists in bands almost never use Ibbies...


----------



## Randy

narad said:


> Yea, I feel like the guitar world status symbol in Japan is playing your Fender Custom Shop into a Two Rock/Fuchs.



I personally don't give two fuchs.


----------



## Konfyouzd

narad said:


> Kiesel Guitars: a status symbol to people that play $200 guitars.
> Hyundai Motors: a status symbol to people that have to walk.
> Olive Garden: a status symbol to people who eat off the dollar menu.
> 
> Doesn't really check out.




Awesome


----------



## narad

Randy said:


> I personally don't give two fuchs.



Should have seen that coming


----------



## auxioluck

Randy said:


> Yes.



Yep.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> I'm probably a massive snob too but nothing here to indicate that. It's just that status symbol _has_ a meaning that I feel you're not using, or contorting it to be a definition that very few people would actually agree with.
> 
> Let's go to the books:
> "a possession that is taken to indicate a person's wealth or high social or professional status."
> Is owning a Ferrari often taken to indicate a person's wealth/social status? Yes. Is owning a rolex? Yes. Is some giant diamond ring? Yes. Is a Louis Vitton bag? Yes.
> 
> Imagine someone who owns these, then imagine them going about the rest of their daily routine. What's it like? All types of imagery comes to mind...a mansion home, a sweater vest, playing some golf with the boys, bottles of Cristal, a pool with palm trees.
> 
> It doesn't mean that's accurate for all people who own these -- of course it's extremely far from it. But it's these associations, that wealthy well-off people live this kind of life, have these kinds of things.
> 
> Now imagine the life of someone that owns a Kiesel guitar. Unwashed clothes thrown in the corner. A poster of a girl in a bikini. Lots of Axe body spray. A crumbled report card with a bunch of a C+s on it. Remorse.
> 
> I kid, but at the very minimum, there's nothing about a Kiesel that I would associate with someone being well-off, even comparatively to those buying cheaper guitars. They are cheap guitars in the larger spectrum of guitars -- even mainstream brands like Fender, Gibson, Jackson, Ibanez, ESP, PRS, each offer many, many production guitars, often made overseas, that are more expensive than many Kiesels. This situation makes it extremely unlikely that Kiesels will ever be thought of as status symbols by a large portion of the guitar-playing population. Most people who can choose guitars choose not to choose Kiesel.
> 
> In short, the "status" part of "status symbol" often refers to the upper end of possible statuses, and not just all statuses that are above affording $200 instruments.



ROFL @ the examples. I totally get your point. But what I'm saying is that Kiesel are *positioning* themselves as something like UGG or maybe that stupid Daniel Wellington watch brand I see everywhere on social media and in real life. They're actually affordable (the watches are like $200, made in China), but they still branded themselves as being a part of that cool lifestyle because every instagram model is wearing one on their white sandy beach and azure coloured pool holiday while drinking a cocktail. If you have one, you're buying into a cool social status. It doesn't necessarily have to be expensive.

It's all relative, and being able to convince the people in the middle of the market that they are accessing something from the top is quite a powerful tool.



bostjan said:


> Why are Stevie T and Jared Dines so popular? It seems most people around these parts find them annoying. Is the key to youtube success to be annoying? I honestly think Stevie has a few moments here and there and can actually play like a mofo, but most of the time, he seems like he's doing a bad Jim Carey impersonation in his videos. You think back to when he was ~20 years old and posted his "When the Saints Go Marching in" video - no weird rubberface expressions, just shredding. ...and that video still only has ~100k views, despite his rise to stardom. I think that people *want* the annoying stuff in with their videos.
> 
> Translate that to guitars. The controversy around Kiesel and their atrocious customer service might be doing them some good, actually. The more people complain about Kiesel, the more people know about their brand. People who hear negative stuff about a brand might only be 10% likely to seek out that brand, but people with no knowledge of the brand are 0% likely to search for it. So, Kiesel is getting positive reviews from these youtubers who have large audiences of kids who like to be annoyed - it's brilliant when you think about it.



The key is some sort of "brand". A unique hook to your channel. People use fake accents, fake glasses etc just to have something memorable. And you need to tease people with imperfect content. For example, in a shootout video, don't actually make an in depth comparison. Make a flawed one, because more people will want to comment and interact. You know that rule of the Internet - don't ask a question, give a wrong answer. Somebody always wants to correct you, and that generates attention, views, and YouTube bumps you up in the algorithm. Look at Lasse Lambert - a guy who really knows his stuff, posts really informative videos. But he has almost no subscribers because he doesn't have a brand, doesn't have a hook, doesn't upload regularly etc. The audience for that content is just so much smaller.

YouTube is also requiring them to upload more often. They want it to become like TV, with regular release schedules. That's why you're seeing so much low effort content, like 10:05 long FAQ Fridays, covers/playthroughs etc.

And yes, most exposure is good exposure. People don't pay much attention to the message (especially no 108 page threads written in text). But they will remember the name and it builds familiarity.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

CapinCripes said:


> Jeff Kiesel's antics lost at least one prospective customer, me. I was in the market for a CS624 a few months ago and the customer service shenanagans directly led to me putting that idea on ice and grabbing a Carvin V220 That's older than I am instead. Hell, i was thinking about getting a cs624 AND a x220 both built but instead i junked that whole idea so as not to give Jeff any of my money. I regret nothing and don't see myself making any purchases that would put money in the company as it stands now.



I'm sure for every person so put off by Jeff they refuse to buy a Kiesel there is at least another who will, and likely another on top of that who will buy because of Jeff. Doesn't hurt that thier options and pricing are fucking awesome.

Everything seems to be going pretty well for them financially. Then again looks can be deceiving and maybe they bought the whole new shop on credit with an absurd interest rate.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm sure for every person so put off by Jeff they refuse to buy a Kiesel there is at least another who will, and likely another on top of that who will buy because of Jeff. Doesn't hurt that thier options and pricing are fucking awesome.
> 
> Everything seems to be going pretty well for them financially. Then again looks can be deceiving and maybe they bought the whole new shop on credit with an absurd interest rate.



knowing california, they probably paid WAY over fair market value.


----------



## couverdure

prlgmnr said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone exists who both can watch a Jared Dines video _and_ afford to buy a guitar from Kiesel.





Quantumface said:


> Haha dude is dreadful. Or Steve Terryberry who is also endorsed by Kiesel, or as I like to call him the "Fred" of the YouTube guitar world. Abysmal.





MatiasTolkki said:


> Jared Dines is a putz who can fuck the hell right off. Steve Terrberry is a nerd and how he got endorsed by Kiesel is because of his Youtube outreach and that alone. Other than that, he'd have to buy them at full cost like the rest of us.



You might have a problem if you think Kiesel giving them guitars is a reason why you hate their channels. I'm not trying to defend Kiesel or anything, but it's very clear that you're not part of their demographic and you do know there's a "Not Interested" button if you don't want their videos to show up in your feeds.


----------



## prlgmnr

couverdure said:


> You might have a problem if you think Kiesel giving them guitars is a reason why you hate their channels.



You're saying those things and quoting my post as if those things you just said are in the text of my post, and now I'm confused.


----------



## couverdure

prlgmnr said:


> You're saying those things and quoting my post as if those things you just said are in the text of my post, and now I'm confused.


I had a few pages of this thread open as I wasn't done reading up to the latest posts so far, so I lost track of what I was quoting.


----------



## prlgmnr

It's like if I said "I don't think anyone who enjoys Mr Tumble can afford a Kiesel".

It wouldn't be a criticism of Mr Tumble or of Kiesel, just a statement about the disposable income of his fans, i.e. pre-school children.


----------



## Randy

auxioluck said:


> Yep.



Uh huh.


----------



## bostjan

Flappydoodle said:


> The key is some sort of "brand". A unique hook to your channel. People use fake accents, fake glasses etc just to have something memorable. And you need to tease people with imperfect content. For example, in a shootout video, don't actually make an in depth comparison. Make a flawed one, because more people will want to comment and interact. You know that rule of the Internet - don't ask a question, give a wrong answer. Somebody always wants to correct you, and that generates attention, views, and YouTube bumps you up in the algorithm. Look at Lasse Lambert - a guy who really knows his stuff, posts really informative videos. But he has almost no subscribers because he doesn't have a brand, doesn't have a hook, doesn't upload regularly etc. The audience for that content is just so much smaller.
> 
> YouTube is also requiring them to upload more often. They want it to become like TV, with regular release schedules. That's why you're seeing so much low effort content, like 10:05 long FAQ Fridays, covers/playthroughs etc.
> 
> And yes, most exposure is good exposure. People don't pay much attention to the message (especially no 108 page threads written in text). But they will remember the name and it builds familiarity.



This post may well be 100% correct, factually, but it makes me exceptionally angry about how incredibly stupid trends are.

A bad video gets more views than a good video? Yeah, probably, but fuck that, if I make a video, I'm going to make it the best that I can. 100 shitty videos << 1 good video, in terms of the amount of respect I have for the uploader. Yet 99.99% of viewers will watch the shitty videos, because youtube will advertise the piss out of those, since the uploader is uploading more often. What a shitshow.

Sorry for the rant, not sorry.

/Regarding Kiesel being the status symbol for people who eat at the Olive Garden and drive Hyundais - I like that analogy, but I think Kiesel is more like an overly gaudy-looking meal that has a 5% chance of giving you food poisoning, rather than just a cheap bowl of Costco pasta served with a cheap imported (from a sweatshop) wine and some pretty tasty yet cheap breadsticks.

Buying a Kiesel is more like eating at the discount gourmet restaurant that has 90 five star reviews and 10 one star reviews on yelp.

If Kiesel was a car, it'd be like if Fiat made a Ferrari-looking body with a Fiat power train in it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

couverdure said:


> You might have a problem if you think Kiesel giving them guitars is a reason why you hate their channels. I'm not trying to defend Kiesel or anything, but it's very clear that you're not part of their demographic and you do know there's a "Not Interested" button if you don't want their videos to show up in your feeds.



Kiesel doesnt give out guitars for free, all endorsers just get a discounted rate.


----------



## cwhitey2

bostjan said:


> Buying a Kiesel is more like eating at the discount gourmet restaurant that has 90 five star reviews and 10 one star reviews on yelp.
> 
> If Kiesel was a car, it'd be like if Fiat made a Ferrari-looking body with a Fiat power train in it.



This made my day and 100% agree


----------



## Cynicanal

Flappydoodle said:


> ROFL @ the examples. I totally get your point. But what I'm saying is that Kiesel are *positioning* themselves as something like UGG or maybe that stupid Daniel Wellington watch brand I see everywhere on social media and in real life. They're actually affordable (the watches are like $200, made in China), but they still branded themselves as being a part of that cool lifestyle because every instagram model is wearing one on their white sandy beach and azure coloured pool holiday while drinking a cocktail. If you have one, you're buying into a cool social status. It doesn't necessarily have to be expensive.


Pretty sure if you're buying guitars at all in 2018, much less 8-string multiscale headless things, you're buying _out of_ cool social status.



> Look at Lasse Lambert - a guy who really knows his stuff, posts really informative videos. But he has almost no subscribers because he doesn't have a brand, doesn't have a hook, doesn't upload regularly etc. The audience for that content is just so much smaller.


I think Lasse also gets hurt by how infrequent his uploads are. But yeah, that dude's gear shootouts are, like, the best ever (and yes, I'm one of those people that barely exists and subscribes to him and clicks instantly on those rare occasions that he does post. Always great info there.)


----------



## SDMFVan

I'm 37 so I have no idea who Jared Dines is and am almost certainly not in his demographic, but watching that video of him with the Aries only makes me want one less. Setup/tuning was totally janked out of the box and it sounded like someone farting into a coffee can once he got it setup properly.

Also, what's the point of doing a "review" of a guitar where you literally offer no opinions on it at all? Man I'm old...


----------



## narad

SDMFVan said:


> Also, what's the point of doing a "review" of a guitar where you literally offer no opinions on it at all? Man I'm old...



You need your own mind to offer up your own opinions. Now it's just, here's me playing the guitar and "Tell us what you think in the comments below"


----------



## spudmunkey

narad said:


> You need your own mind to offer up your own opinions. Now it's just, here's me playing the guitar and "Tell us what you think in the comments below"



This is par for the course on seemingly any topic for the last little while. "Here's my review of this tool/bike/guitar/computer component, etc: My try-hard 'personality' reading a list of the specs, MSRP, and "please subscribe and share. Oh, and here's my Patreon. Wix."


----------



## Vhyle

Ugh, Jared Dines. I can't stand him. I still don't understand how he's so popular.


----------



## couverdure

Vhyle said:


> Ugh, Jared Dines. I can't stand him. I still don't understand how he's so popular.


Because memes. He and Stevie T are one of the few memesters in a huge YouTube guitar/metal community where everyone else seems to make more edutainment-type videos.

I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.
He returned that black Aries he reviewed because he didn't like Floyds, so he got a fixed Lee McKinney signature model instead.

Also Jared isn't endorsed by Kiesel, if he did then all of his guitars would be nothing but theirs like Stevie T, who's actually endorsed by them (he even had a Carvin 7-string in his older videos).


----------



## bostjan

It's not just Jared and Stevie, though. There are tons of big youtube personalities who get lots of views based off of the same sort of annoying schtick that those guys rely on. I just don't see what's really noteworthy of a guy acting like he's high on various drugs while playing drums - it's the exact sort of humour me and my friends had at band practice when we were too young to drive an automobile, and it got old just as fast back then. The question, "what makes this content noteworthy" is a big ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ... Can I see the same content on 100's of other channels? Sure. Can I see the same content on other channel with the same production quality? I imagine so. Is the content high in quality? Not really.

In my mind, it boils down to advertising costs. If you on youtube at the right time, and you spent enough on advertising, you boosted your career a lot. If you missed your window, you're going to stagnate. Like I said, Stevie T is a very good player, and he got his start just like most of the people on this site with youtube videos did, and he got similar view counts to what really good players here did at that time, but then he started his whole rubberface thing and made his videos look more colourful but also we saw him playing guitar less and less, and saw more of him in drag, and more of him picking on things a lot of people dislike, and, somehow, through the negativity and bad costumes and deliberate bad acting, he became a thousand times more famous than he was when he was just playing guitar. I get the feeling that he knew precisely what he was doing the whole time.

Are we 100% certain that Kiesel never sends people a guitar to review free of charge?


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

narad said:


> You need your own mind to offer up your own opinions. Now it's just, here's me playing the guitar and "Tell us what you think in the comments below"



You forgot to “like” and subscribe. _Don’t _forget to “like” and subscribe.


----------



## Soya

couverdure said:


> Because memes. He and Stevie T are one of the few memesters in a huge YouTube guitar/metal community where everyone else seems to make more edutainment-type videos.
> 
> I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.



How dare we not be young and stupid anymore.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

couverdure said:


> Because memes. He and Stevie T are one of the few memesters in a huge YouTube guitar/metal community where everyone else seems to make more edutainment-type videos.
> 
> I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.
> He returned that black Aries he reviewed because he didn't like Floyds, so he got a fixed Lee McKinney signature model instead.
> 
> Also Jared isn't endorsed by Kiesel, if he did then all of his guitars would be nothing but theirs like Stevie T, who's actually endorsed by them (he even had a Carvin 7-string in his older videos).



I'm 30+ and i'm not bitter. I find his comedy horribly stupid and condescending.


----------



## A-Branger

you guys are forgeting the marketing part of things. Who cares waht kind of content and the players ability (which btw both Jared and Stevie are pretty good players) and how funny they a e or not..... The big point is that they both (and other youtubers) have massive amount of views and followers.

Tos end a guitar to them for anything, be a review, a playtrough, and show and tell, even if its a hang on the wall and acknowledge it. The point is that their XXX.xxxx viewers of that video are gonna see the product, either get any sort of info from it, or simply a "oh I wonder whaddup with that brand?"..... I know because that was me at 15 watching X band music video on MTV, so I knew that X, Y, and Z brand of guitars were the way to go

In the past we all used to buy magazines. Gutiar brands then put adds in those magazines so you became aware of such brand, or send a guitar to them to review or make an article. These days A LOT of people go to youtube, either for entertainment, fun, rant, or watch reviews, so theres the new marketing for the brands, send a guitar to were people are gonna see it.

You guys havent notice EarniBall Music Man sneaking into every channel right now?..... Jared got couple of Majesties, Other youtubers got a JP15, plus everyone making a review of the expression pedals?.... and I think even geargods got a new stingray too.

Its Marketing


----------



## narad

couverdure said:


> I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.



Dammmn.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

A-Branger said:


> you guys are forgeting the marketing part of things. Who cares waht kind of content and the players ability (which btw both Jared and Stevie are pretty good players) and how funny they a e or not..... The big point is that they both (and other youtubers) have massive amount of views and followers.
> 
> Tos end a guitar to them for anything, be a review, a playtrough, and show and tell, even if its a hang on the wall and acknowledge it. The point is that their XXX.xxxx viewers of that video are gonna see the product, either get any sort of info from it, or simply a "oh I wonder whaddup with that brand?"..... I know because that was me at 15 watching X band music video on MTV, so I knew that X, Y, and Z brand of guitars were the way to go
> 
> In the past we all used to buy magazines. Gutiar brands then put adds in those magazines so you became aware of such brand, or send a guitar to them to review or make an article. These days A LOT of people go to youtube, either for entertainment, fun, rant, or watch reviews, so theres the new marketing for the brands, send a guitar to were people are gonna see it.
> 
> You guys havent notice EarniBall Music Man sneaking into every channel right now?..... Jared got couple of Majesties, Other youtubers got a JP15, plus everyone making a review of the expression pedals?.... and I think even geargods got a new stingray too.
> 
> Its Marketing



We havent neglected the marketing aspect, but those of us who hate Jared and Stevie T also dislike their approach to HOW they market themselves. Stevie T used to be pretty cool, then he started his stupid ass joke videos, then Jared Demoing a Lee MicKinney model couldn't even use a Piezo correctly, so yeah, we're looking at it from how they are marketing themselves, not how Kiesel is marketing the guitars.


----------



## narad

narad said:


> Dammmn.



Actually, I just watched one of Stevie T's videos and I totally take that back. I _proudly_ believe those videos are terrible. That's like 11-14 yr old humor.


----------



## Mathemagician

This is the same forum where back when dethklok was on the air, a bunch of people HATED it. And some went so far as to say it disrespected metal. As if metal isn’t the most cartoonishly funny thing on earth. Imo metal only gets funnier when people take it seriously.


----------



## Vyn

couverdure said:


> I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.



This explains why I find Stevie and Jared hilarious because I'm not 30 yet  I like them because most of their content is pisstakes and memes which as a casual "I've had a shit day at work, I'm going to log on and watch 10min of Jared being a tool" works very well. I wouldn't be surprised if that attitude was shared with most of their user base.


----------



## narad

Vyn said:


> This explains why I find Stevie and Jared hilarious because I'm not 30 yet  I like them because most of their content is pisstakes and memes which as a casual "I've had a shit day at work, I'm going to log on and watch 10min of Jared being a tool" works very well. I wouldn't be surprised if that attitude was shared with most of their user base.



Ah, Kiesel cashing in on that lucrative "I've had a shit day at work" demographic.


----------



## Vyn

narad said:


> Ah, Kiesel cashing in on that lucrative "I've had a shit day at work" demographic.



It's a lucrative market  Pity I don't like Kiesel lol.


----------



## prlgmnr

narad said:


> Ah, Kiesel cashing in on that lucrative "I've had a shit day at work" demographic.


Daniel Powter endorsement any day now.


----------



## Seabeast2000

prlgmnr said:


> Daniel Powter endorsement any day now.


That is funny. "Hi I'm Daniel Powter, had a bad day? Pick up a Kiesel and cry it out".


----------



## feraledge

narad said:


> Actually, I just watched one of Stevie T's videos and I totally take that back. I _proudly_ believe those videos are terrible. That's like 11-14 yr old humor.


I've known a kid since he was born. He's been getting into metal and playing guitar. He told me one day that he thought Stevie T was hilarious. As I was grinding my teeth, I had to think, is it my place to have "the talk" with him? Shouldn't it be his own father who sits him down and explains to him that Stevie T is, in fact, the antithesis of funny? 
I decided at that moment, I wasn't ready to crush his spirit. Tried to tell myself that it was okay, that maybe Stevie T is a gateway drug to good things. It didn't sit well with me, but it was the decision I had made. I bought him a From Ashes Rise LP from a crusty basement record store and thought I had done my part.

Now he worships Rammstein. And as I recount the tale, I can't help but think, it's all my fault.
That's hard to live with.


----------



## feraledge

And for the statisticians: I'm inching towards 40. I hate anything that asks "does it djent?" I don't get unboxing videos for the life of me. I hate nearly everything about youtube "creator content." I have no qualms saying Stevie T and Jared are about as funny as Philip McKnight and Tone King are palatable. 
Now get off my lawn, I'm going back to watching Spinal Tap.


----------



## USMarine75

F you all in this thread. I googled Stevie T and now I hate the internet.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

USMarine75 said:


> F you all in this thread. I googled Stevie T and now I hate the internet.



well fuck you too buddy


----------



## MatiasTolkki

feraledge said:


> And for the statisticians: I'm inching towards 40. I hate anything that asks "does it djent?" I don't get unboxing videos for the life of me. I hate nearly everything about youtube "creator content." I have no qualms saying Stevie T and Jared are about as funny as Philip McKnight and Tone King are palatable.
> Now get off my lawn, I'm going back to watching Spinal Tap.



tone cuck is a fat slob. his "honest comparison" of an indonesian-made ibanez vs a kiesel aries, where he basically worships jeff 2 inch wonder, was my awakening to his bullshit.


----------



## bostjan

Shameless self-plug. No Kiesels were brandished in the making thereof.



Vyn said:


> This explains why I find Stevie and Jared hilarious because I'm not 30 yet  I like them because most of their content is pisstakes and memes which as a casual "I've had a shit day at work, I'm going to log on and watch 10min of Jared being a tool" works very well. I wouldn't be surprised if that attitude was shared with most of their user base.



Really? This intrigues me. So what is it about Jared's videos that make them enjoyable after a shitty work day?

I mean, I honestly don't hate the guy. In fact, I think he's quite clever for what he's accomplished, but, from an entertainment standpoint, I honestly don't "get it." Reading your post makes me feel like that old guy who just doesn't understand what makes the cool kids cool. But, honest to God, I've always been like this in that I've never really gone for mainstream entertainment, at least since the Muppets. Perhaps I don't get the joke because I'm around the joke all of the time, so it's just not funny anymore. Seriously, Jared Dines being as over-the-top as he can be still pales in comparison with some of the people I met in the metal scene when I was trying to make it.


----------



## Vyn

bostjan said:


> Shameless self-plug. No Kiesels were brandished in the making thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? This intrigues me. So what is it about Jared's videos that make them enjoyable after a shitty work day?
> 
> I mean, I honestly don't hate the guy. In fact, I think he's quite clever for what he's accomplished, but, from an entertainment standpoint, I honestly don't "get it." Reading your post makes me feel like that old guy who just doesn't understand what makes the cool kids cool. But, honest to God, I've always been like this in that I've never really gone for mainstream entertainment, at least since the Muppets. Perhaps I don't get the joke because I'm around the joke all of the time, so it's just not funny anymore. Seriously, Jared Dines being as over-the-top as he can be still pales in comparison with some of the people I met in the metal scene when I was trying to make it.




The joke really is two-fold: Taking the piss out of a (on the surface) 'serious' genre and then taking aim at the fanbase of the genre. There's some fantastic irony because while some of the videos are played up to emphasise the point, in reality a lot of it is hilariously accurate. 

Another angle I use is that no matter how shit my day at work was, I wasn't getting anywhere near as butthurt as the comment section on YouTube. Always makes me feel better that I've actually achieved something rather than spending 8 hours arguing over some guy's Djent-Stick video.


----------



## Watty

To say nothing about Dines as a person, when Perry built him that 18 string guitar in a month right before NAMM, he got his work in front of 1.8 million eyes....it’s a marketing technique for the new age of media, to be sure.


----------



## diagrammatiks

ppl getting all mad at free shit that they literally don't have to watch. 
what a time to be alive.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> ppl getting all mad at free shit that they literally don't have to watch.
> what a time to be alive.



Shhh! No criticisms for free stuff! No criticisms of optional stuff! Only criticisms for things you _have_ to do. That must be the sensible thing.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> Shhh! No criticisms for free stuff! No criticisms of optional stuff! Only criticisms for things you _have_ to do. That must be the sensible thing.



this is shit that you have to go out of your way to see and be offended by.
It's ok to criticize but like people are getting frothy over it. You really don't think that youtube content is the same as a guitar that pay for or a movie that you pay for do you.


----------



## bostjan

diagrammatiks said:


> ppl getting all mad at free shit that they literally don't have to watch.
> what a time to be alive.


Who said they were mad. I think people are mostly confused.

For me, it's like REM. At one time, people really really loved REM and they got HUGE, but I really didn't see what REM had that the 400 halfway pretentious artsy-indy bands performing in my local area at that time (early 90's) didn't have. But for fans of REM, they were different and so much better. It's not that REM was bad, so much as I, personally, didn't "get it."

Same with the film _The Sixth Sense_... when I watched it, I was drunk as hell (not too proud of my alcoholism that was raging at that time), but I saw the "twist" from a few minutes into the movie, and then I just didn't find it entertaining. Watching again at a later date sober, I just got no value at all from the film. It just seemed like a waste of time to me, but there are plenty of people who loved the film to death. Again, I just don't "get it."

There's nothing wrong with liking Jared Dines or Stevie T or Annoying Orange or Phred or whatever, but, for me, I just don't see what's so great about those things, because they don't entertain me or thrill me. It's just taste. But I love talking about what makes people like things that I don't like, or what makes people dislike things that I like, because I enjoy hearing perspectives that are contrary to my own. It's what makes life interesting, you know?

So, this thread about everyone hating Kiesel got derailed into everyone hating Jared Dines's videos, and this guy, @Vyn , came along and said he actually did enjoy them, so I reached out to him for his reasons why, which he graciously shared with us. I genuinely enjoyed reading his post.

And now you've expressed dislike for the general dislike of things to do with entertainment. I suppose we could discuss why you don't like that people like discussing how much they don't like something, but it's getting a bit too nested at this point and it's already twice removed from the thread topic.


----------



## diagrammatiks

bostjan said:


> Who said they were mad. I think people are mostly confused.
> 
> For me, it's like REM. At one time, people really really loved REM and they got HUGE, but I really didn't see what REM had that the 400 halfway pretentious artsy-indy bands performing in my local area at that time (early 90's) didn't have. But for fans of REM, they were different and so much better. It's not that REM was bad, so much as I, personally, didn't "get it."
> 
> Same with the film _The Sixth Sense_... when I watched it, I was drunk as hell (not too proud of my alcoholism that was raging at that time), but I saw the "twist" from a few minutes into the movie, and then I just didn't find it entertaining. Watching again at a later date sober, I just got no value at all from the film. It just seemed like a waste of time to me, but there are plenty of people who loved the film to death. Again, I just don't "get it."
> 
> There's nothing wrong with liking Jared Dines or Stevie T or Annoying Orange or Phred or whatever, but, for me, I just don't see what's so great about those things, because they don't entertain me or thrill me. It's just taste. But I love talking about what makes people like things that I don't like, or what makes people dislike things that I like, because I enjoy hearing perspectives that are contrary to my own. It's what makes life interesting, you know?
> 
> So, this thread about everyone hating Kiesel got derailed into everyone hating Jared Dines's videos, and this guy, @Vyn , came along and said he actually did enjoy them, so I reached out to him for his reasons why, which he graciously shared with us. I genuinely enjoyed reading his post.
> 
> And now you've expressed dislike for the general dislike of things to do with entertainment. I suppose we could discuss why you don't like that people like discussing how much they don't like something, but it's getting a bit too nested at this point and it's already twice removed from the thread topic.



at least one person is really mad.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> this is shit that you have to go out of your way to see and be offended by.
> It's ok to criticize but like people are getting frothy over it. You really don't think that youtube content is the same as a guitar that pay for or a movie that you pay for do you.



It's just weird. This is a discussion forum for things related to guitar, which includes people making guitar videos. It's probably the most relevant place on the internet to criticize those videos.

I don't see anyone getting mad/frothy over it. I'm not imagining anyone at their computers, smashing their hands down on the table, "GODDAMMIT HE MADE THE FACE AGAIN!? 2.7 MILLION VIEWS!?!?" It's just sort of lame content. I don't blame him for catering to the audience though -- I mean, it's a full-time job. You can make boring/objective/informative content for free in your spare time, or you can dance around with a guitar making fart noises and not have spend your day at a non-guitar-related job.

I mean, "That Pedal Show" is my favorite guitar-related youtube channel, and that's a total snoozefest for most people.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Don't discuss things on a *discussion *board!

Truly some engaging contributions to the thread dude.

On Dines/Stevie, I remember being in middle/high school. In fact I have daily reminders from Facebook about what my activity and content was like years ago. The content exists because there is a demographic for it, Stevie T is banking on the kind of people who still makes "Does it djent" comments. Inversely the same kind of people who think fart jokes are still funny, young kids. Dines is targeting the generic social media content, "10 Things X do" is the kind of shit people see and tag all their friends in. He's simply banking on the kind of content people repeatedly watch and come back for, you can't fault them for doing what works when they're trying to make what they do their careers.

I'd wager a large majority of people on here don't fit into those groups of people, so that's why people are poking fun at them. Literally no one is going berserk with hate towards either of them, your comment just indicates that you're a fan and getting defensive because something you enjoy is getting made fun of. Like your advice about not watching the content, which most of the people here undoubtedly do, you can also ignore the thread/comments and move on as well, diagram.


----------



## JSanta

narad said:


> It's just weird. This is a discussion forum for things related to guitar, which includes people making guitar videos. It's probably the most relevant place on the internet to criticize those videos.
> 
> I don't see anyone getting mad/frothy over it. I'm not imagining anyone at their computers, smashing their hands down on the table, "GODDAMMIT HE MADE THE FACE AGAIN!? 2.7 MILLION VIEWS!?!?" It's just sort of lame content. I don't blame him for catering to the audience though -- I mean, it's a full-time job. You can make boring/objective/informative content for free in your spare time, or you can dance around with a guitar making fart noises and not have spend your day at a non-guitar-related job.
> 
> I mean, "That Pedal Show" is my favorite guitar-related youtube channel, and that's a total snoozefest for most people.



Well, That Pedal Show IS the best guitar channel on YouTube, so there's that.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I just don't think there's that much to discuss.
people like stupid shit. what more do you want.

I'm not really a fan. I don't care either way. when they show up in my feed I'll watch a video. It's free. there's literally no cost.

I think you are guys are reading way more into it and putting way more effort into this then I am.


----------



## narad

JSanta said:


> Well, That Pedal Show IS the best guitar channel on YouTube, so there's that.



I just have a hard time explaining it -- "Nah, they're going to compare two real klons -- the horsie and the gold klon -- with 3 other klon clones" "Cool, send it over - how long is it?" "Seven hours, for the one without the germanium capacitors"


----------



## prlgmnr

How did you do on the blindfold test?


----------



## JSanta

prlgmnr said:


> How did you do on the blindfold test?



I got the guitars right, and I think a few amps. Otherwise, I did horrendously! I love that channel. I even started giving to their Patreon. I think they're just phenomenal, both as players as well as educators. 



narad said:


> I just have a hard time explaining it -- "Nah, they're going to compare two real klons -- the horsie and the gold klon -- with 3 other klon clones" "Cool, send it over - how long is it?" "Seven hours, for the one without the germanium capacitors"



And after the 7th hour you wish there was a bit more of a dive into why the geranium capacitors from 1975 aged differently from those in the 1977 batches. Those guys are brilliant.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

narad said:


> It's just weird. This is a discussion forum for things related to guitar, which includes people making guitar videos. It's probably the most relevant place on the internet to criticize those videos.



So let's follow the logic: you can't criticise anything that's free, because paying for something is what gives you the license to complain. 

I think I found a pic of the guy you were arguing with.


----------



## narad

prlgmnr said:


> How did you do on the blindfold test?



We all fail the blind tests, but we have faith that the _feel_ of the originals was a bit spongier. 

EDIT: oh, I see you're serious -- didn't check today's content!


----------



## StevenC

prlgmnr said:


> How did you do on the blindfold test?


I got the first guitar. None of the pedals, none of the amps. I'm really questioning what I've spent the last decade of my life doing.


----------



## narad

StevenC said:


> I got the first guitar. None of the pedals, none of the amps. I'm really questioning what I've spent the last decade of my life doing.



The comments sum it up I think:

"I know it's a bit faddish, but the blindfold test is very good for popping boutique pedal bubbles."

That Pedal Show
Recorded, mixed, output and broadcast across YouTube, you can make quite a few things sound very similar indeed! And if it makes people feel better about the fact their £59 pedal sounds as good as something much more expensive then it’s all good. The view outside the bubble is just as silly as the one inside it. Forget bubbles! Play what inspires you and NOTHING else. That’s where we are with it. :0)


^^ That's why I love these guys.


----------



## SDMFVan

So I watched a few of Jared Dines' videos because of this thread, and my major takeaway is that on his shred videos there's parts where he seems to be speeding up the tape to appear to be playing faster. Is that part of his shtick?


----------



## Vhyle

SDMFVan said:


> So I watched a few of Jared Dines' videos because of this thread, and my major takeaway is that on his shred videos there's parts where he seems to be speeding up the tape to appear to be playing faster. Is that part of his shtick?



Wouldn't surprise me, in the least.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Hey, now... it was perfectly fine for Vinnie Vincent!


----------



## spudmunkey

Low frame rate is also an aesthetic video technique, and it can make it seem like it's sped-up.


----------



## LordCashew

narad said:


> That Pedal Show



Subb'd. This thread may have been worth reading after all...


----------



## raytsh

couverdure said:


> I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.



I'm 33 and I don't like either of those two youtubers, I don't even like Scallon. So I can fully support that statement. I really don't like these "metal version of this popular pop song", "what if band XYZ played in ABC tuning", "famous riffs played at double the speed", "top X solos/riffs that have this and that property" and other pointless videos like that.

On a side note: My favourite guitar youtuber right now is probably Ola Englund and my fav music general youtuber might be Adam Neely.

Regarding the topic, thanks to what I've read here, I'll never get a Kiesel and I hate them just based on the look of many guitars and based n Jeffs behavior and attitude. I would rather order some more Skervesens (building one right now).


----------



## exo

Almost 43, all my favorite bands are black or death metal, HATE most “djent” bands......

I absolutely LOVE Jared Dines videos. Probably because my 15 year old “trying to learn guitar and bass” daughter does. Also probably because outside of “adult with kids responsibilities”, I’m immature AF.
————

This thread is over 110 pages in and NO ONE has broached the “Keisel VS custom Rondo” question.....based on the QC horror stories that are the basis of this post’s existence, it certainly seems like a valid avenue of exploration......


----------



## MatiasTolkki

exo said:


> Almost 43, all my favorite bands are black or death metal, HATE most “djent” bands......
> 
> I absolutely LOVE Jared Dines videos. Probably because my 15 year old “trying to learn guitar and bass” daughter does. Also probably because outside of “adult with kids responsibilities”, I’m immature AF.
> ————
> 
> This thread is over 110 pages in and NO ONE has broached the “Keisel VS custom Rondo” question.....based on the QC horror stories that are the basis of this post’s existence, it certainly seems like a valid avenue of exploration......



We could do a Kiesel vs ESP custom shop rant if you'd like


----------



## exo

MatiasTolkki said:


> We could do a Kiesel vs ESP custom shop rant if you'd like




Yeah, not even REMOTELY in the same league and the entirety of SSO knows it.

Shoot, I have questions about whether or not a Keisel would be objectively “better” than my H-1007FR.....


----------



## SamSam

MatiasTolkki said:


> We could do a Kiesel vs ESP custom shop rant if you'd like



Savage.


----------



## pfizer

I'll watch a Stevie or Jared Dines video but I won't actively search for it. 

If anything, at least they're both skilled players, with Stevie probably being a better player. 

Kmac, on the other hand, is pretty unabashed about his content generally being less about guitar and more about memes. 

I'm personally more of a Samurai Guitarist fan -- he generally offers some intelligent advice and insight on being a musician and the music industry as a whole.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> We could do a Kiesel vs ESP custom shop rant if you'd like


Somone needs a Youtube channel.


----------



## ElRay

MatiasTolkki said:


> Not affordable anymore, with all those price hikes the past couple years.


I would have said that they're quick, easy to order and give the illusion of providing a custom guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

ElRay said:


> I would have said that they're quick, easy to order and give the illusion of providing a custom guitar.



Except with lots of price increases recently, they are only a good buy if you like Hipshot bridges (as you can probably tell, I need double locking trems or I won't even bother).


----------



## Flappydoodle

bostjan said:


> This post may well be 100% correct, factually, but it makes me exceptionally angry about how incredibly stupid trends are.
> 
> A bad video gets more views than a good video? Yeah, probably, but fuck that, if I make a video, I'm going to make it the best that I can. 100 shitty videos << 1 good video, in terms of the amount of respect I have for the uploader. Yet 99.99% of viewers will watch the shitty videos, because youtube will advertise the piss out of those, since the uploader is uploading more often. What a shitshow.



Yep. The shitty videos are where they money is. You need ideally 10 mins (hence all the 10:02 videos out there), upload 3x per week, and have a sponsor - which usually means a lot of views, uncontroversial content etc. It's absolutely killing quality and the informative nature of youtube videos, I totally agree. But sadly, your respect does no equal revenue for the uploader or for Google.

I've found several great smaller YouTube channels, like Lasse's, and they all suffer the same "problem". The videos are long, full of information, but have absolutely no "remarkable" prospect - i.e. there's nothing for people to talk about, get upset about, complain about. And the personality of the people is just... too normal.



> /Regarding Kiesel being the status symbol for people who eat at the Olive Garden and drive Hyundais - I like that analogy, but I think Kiesel is more like an overly gaudy-looking meal that has a 5% chance of giving you food poisoning, rather than just a cheap bowl of Costco pasta served with a cheap imported (from a sweatshop) wine and some pretty tasty yet cheap breadsticks.
> 
> Buying a Kiesel is more like eating at the discount gourmet restaurant that has 90 five star reviews and 10 one star reviews on yelp.
> 
> If Kiesel was a car, it'd be like if Fiat made a Ferrari-looking body with a Fiat power train in it.



Sure, I can take that analogy. But really, Kiesel's aren't bad guitars exactly. The owner is a douche, and their business practices are questionable, but the couple Kiesel's I've played have all looked good and sounded pretty good. Personally I'd say they're more like an Audi A4 or a BMW X1. Cheap-ish, but above Fiat, and basically existing so that people can brag about how they drive a "luxury" brand while not actually stumping up too much cash for it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

SDMFVan said:


> I'm 37 so I have no idea who Jared Dines is and am almost certainly not in his demographic, but watching that video of him with the Aries only makes me want one less. Setup/tuning was totally janked out of the box and it sounded like someone farting into a coffee can once he got it setup properly.
> 
> Also, what's the point of doing a "review" of a guitar where you literally offer no opinions on it at all? Man I'm old...



Because it's not a "review"

It's a demo... aka an advert. He just baited you into watching an 8 minute long advert.



MatiasTolkki said:


> He completely shat the bed when he reviewed some signature model because he didn't know how to use a Piezo, because he's a goddamn retard.



I wonder if he really did. I mean, all of these Youtube "stars" clearly do have good sense of how to increase their popularity. And he IS a good guitarist, drummer, and singer - quite a talented musician IMO. So IMO, I think there's no way that he is actually retarded, despite his dopey face and voice acting.

I'm sure he knows how to use a Piezo, but as I mentioned before, some strategic fuck-ups in your videos get people talking about it, generate comments and discussion etc much more than a "perfect" review ever could. People on the Internet LOVE to correct you. If you ever want to know something, give a wrong answer instead of asking a question.


----------



## bostjan

Flappydoodle said:


> If you ever want to know something, give a wrong answer instead of asking a question.


If you are a person of note, i.e. have a lot of views on youtube, and you misstate something deliberately in a video, for every person who corrects you, there will be two who believe you despite being corrected. I know we all come across the type of person who will read a The Onion article and repost it as not-satire. The more subtle the misinformation, the more people will buy it.

Not that there's anything anyone can do, except maybe delete the posts we don't like and block the people responsible, like Kiesel does.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Flappydoodle said:


> Because it's not a "review"
> 
> It's a demo... aka an advert. He just baited you into watching an 8 minute long advert.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if he really did. I mean, all of these Youtube "stars" clearly do have good sense of how to increase their popularity. And he IS a good guitarist, drummer, and singer - quite a talented musician IMO. So IMO, I think there's no way that he is actually retarded, despite his dopey face and voice acting.
> 
> I'm sure he knows how to use a Piezo, but as I mentioned before, some strategic fuck-ups in your videos get people talking about it, generate comments and discussion etc much more than a "perfect" review ever could. People on the Internet LOVE to correct you. If you ever want to know something, give a wrong answer instead of asking a question.



Did you even watch his video with that LPM6? Jared was a fucking tool that ENTIRE video, and I was on the kiesel forums bashing him as hard as I could because that was completely unfair to Kiesel (even with my hate of Jeff, what Jared did was shitty, and it was JUST before he got his signature Chapman guitar so there's gotta be some correlation between the two).


----------



## Flappydoodle

bostjan said:


> If you are a person of note, i.e. have a lot of views on youtube, and you misstate something deliberately in a video, for every person who corrects you, there will be two who believe you despite being corrected. I know we all come across the type of person who will read a The Onion article and repost it as not-satire. The more subtle the misinformation, the more people will buy it.
> 
> Not that there's anything anyone can do, except maybe delete the posts we don't like and block the people responsible, like Kiesel does.



Absolutely. And that's good (from their point of view), because it keeps the debate going and people will remember what you said. And when your fans run into people who disagree with them, they will defend you - mostly because they don't want to feel like they've been misled/tricked or been gullible. Look at the nonsense Jeff spouts about guitar manufacture, materials and techniques. You get experienced luthiers coming out and saying he's wrong, but his fans double down to vigorously defend him anyway.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MatiasTolkki said:


> Did you even watch his video with that LPM6? Jared was a fucking tool that ENTIRE video, and I was on the kiesel forums bashing him as hard as I could because that was completely unfair to Kiesel (even with my hate of Jeff, what Jared did was shitty, and it was JUST before he got his signature Chapman guitar so there's gotta be some correlation between the two).



Yep, of course I watched it - but it really doesn't matter at all. He took the piss with the Kiesel name, played it out of tune, didn't plug into a proper amp and didn't make a proper recording. It was a lazy, stupid video, with even less effort than his "10 styles of X" videos. None of it matters. And again, maybe he did it just to upset the Kiesel fanboys and get even MORE attention to himself...

Still, it's product in front of eyes, 800,000 views and a 96% like, 4% dislike score. Literally hundreds of thousands of people who like guitars have now seen the Kiesel name thanks to Jared's stupid video. And Jared's stupid behaviour got people on forums all over the place talking about him. That's the sad world we live in.

(You can also see the Chapman on his guitar rack in the background, haha)


----------



## bostjan

MatiasTolkki said:


> Did you even watch his video with that LPM6? Jared was a fucking tool that ENTIRE video, and I was on the kiesel forums bashing him as hard as I could because that was completely unfair to Kiesel (even with my hate of Jeff, what Jared did was shitty, and it was JUST before he got his signature Chapman guitar so there's gotta be some correlation between the two).


That's what gets me though - when I watch the video, it seems like Jared just being himself. Maybe someone could point me in the direction of his *best* video and I'd change my mind.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

bostjan said:


> That's what gets me though - when I watch the video, it seems like Jared just being himself. Maybe someone could point me in the direction of his *best* video and I'd change my mind.



I'm not changing my mind about him. He acts like such a tool and I can't stand watching tools acting like flaming retards. I make it a point to avoid him and Stevie T at ALL costs.


----------



## Drew

couverdure said:


> I think the majority of SSO don't like him simply because he mostly does humorous videos and they're all uptight 30+ year olds with a bitter sense with humor.


As one of the guys who migrated from here to MG after we sold this site to the current ownership that makes jokes about this place mostly being djent kiddies, I find it HILARIOUS that sevenstring is now getting shit on for being too old.


----------



## bostjan

Drew said:


> As one of the guys who migrated from here to MG after we sold this site to the current ownership that makes jokes about this place mostly being djent kiddies, I find it HILARIOUS that sevenstring is now getting shit on for being too old.


It's been a little while since that happened. I had ducked out of online forums in general around that time, but most of the djent kids here during that time seem to be gone now, either from losing interest or getting banned.


----------



## prlgmnr

bostjan said:


> It's been a little while since that happened. I had ducked out of online forums in general around that time, but most of the djent kids here during that time seem to be gone now, either from losing interest or getting banned.


Or growing up to be DjentDads


----------



## Randy

Drew said:


> As one of the guys who migrated from here to MG after we sold this site to the current ownership that makes jokes about this place mostly being djent kiddies, I find it HILARIOUS that sevenstring is now getting shit on for being too old.



The site has obsolescence built right into it's domain name. We're 2+ strings behind the times here.


----------



## Drew

Randy said:


> The site has obsolescence built right into it's domain name. We're 2+ strings behind the times here.


I feel way better about the fact I've started posting here again!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Randy said:


> The site has obsolescence built right into it's domain name. We're 2+ strings behind the times here.


----------



## USMarine75

Wait you mean Chris didn't buy up all the eighstring.org, ninestring.org, etc?

Hell, someone thought to buy 18and1.org before the Giants/Patriots SuperBowl in 2007.

[Don't click on those I can't be responsible where the links take you lol... also don't click on whitehouse.com either.]


----------



## Hollowway

I know there used to be an “extendedrange.com” site or something that got clded into this when Chris still ran it. There was a sticky or banner or something that used to welcome people from that site. But otherwise there still ain’t much for 8, 9, and 10 string players beyond the subforum on here.


----------



## USMarine75

Hollowway said:


> I know there used to be an “extendedrange.com” site or something that got clded into this when Chris still ran it. There was a sticky or banner or something that used to welcome people from that site. But otherwise there still ain’t much for 8, 9, and 10 string players beyond the subforum on here.



What about 0-0-0-1-0-0-1-0-1.org?


----------



## prlgmnr

USMarine75 said:


> What about 0-0-0-1-0-0-1-0-1.org?


Maybe "I-actually-plan-to-use-the-extra-range-for-jazz-style-walking-bassline-accompaniment-at-least-until-I-actually-buy-the-thing-at-which-point-0-0-000-0-000-0-000-0-00-0-000-1-2^2^3^-00-2^.org"


----------



## Zado

Jeff wanted to be either funny or very original.


----------



## LordCashew

Zado said:


> Jeff wanted to be either funny or very original.



Silver sKie.


----------



## narad

prlgmnr said:


> Maybe "I-actually-plan-to-use-the-extra-range-for-jazz-style-walking-bassline-accompaniment-at-least-until-I-actually-buy-the-thing-at-which-point-0-0-000-0-000-0-000-0-00-0-000-1-2^2^3^-00-2^.org"



He...He knows...


----------



## Zado

Ops, pic got deleted


----------



## spudmunkey

For what it's worth, when they posted those photos, it was literally meant to be a Silver Sky-inspired build. One of the employees put through this build order for the in-stock store based on the PRS, as a sort of tongue-in-cheek build. $1399 shipped, with a case, in case anyone was curious (if it's still available).


----------



## Jake

That headstock looks terrible on there. No thank you.


----------



## spudmunkey

Jake said:


> That headstock looks terrible on there. No thank you.



Just like it does on the PRS, frankly.


----------



## Seabeast2000

This just in:
Kiesel buys Gibson. 
Available immediately, 2017 Semi-Custom Limited Reissue models. "These are the exact same options as our 2018 line-up, but limited with a 2017 label and with a $3000 premium." These will be faithful reproductions of the iconic 2017 models using the exact same methods and tooling. 
Henry J. will stay on as marketing consultant and customer service VP. "Henry will shunt all customer service calls to a huge voice mail server after the customer hears 20 minutes of Kiesel marketing ads. He will also introduce 12 different burst finishes which are empirically indiscernible from each other. There will also be fully beveled coasters and barstools, etc in the all new K-SWAG shop. This will push the popular Bevel-Life style as part of the 1-pronged approach to market dominance. We're so excited!!!!!" 
"I'm very excited", says Henry, "we've already made an offer to buy a regional chain of sports bars to promote the brand and we are finalizing the acquisition of a women's fashion house."


----------



## MaxOfMetal

It's pretty meta to make fun of a guitar that's supposedly a shameless copy using a model they've made as a shameless copy for decades. 

Is that the joke or are they actually that clueless?


----------



## spudmunkey

They literally made it as a joke. Keep it mind, it's not a production model. They made one.


----------



## Jake

spudmunkey said:


> Just like it does on the PRS, frankly.


Never said it didn't  I think they both look awful


----------



## spudmunkey

Jake said:


> Never said it didn't  I think they both look awful



I wasn't disagreeing. Just adding to the conversation.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> They literally made it as a joke. Keep it mind, it's not a production model. They made one.



Yes, they made a "joke", which is ever more funny given what the PRS gets bagged on for.


----------



## SDMFVan

I'd love to see PRS and Jeff sit down and have a conversation about guitar building. It would be like watching Stephen Hawking trying to explain string theory to a monkey...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I didnt really get wtf happened with that guitar, so someone clear it up for me:

PRS makes a guitar exactly like that, and the cunts at Kiesel tried to one up them making something that looks exactly like a PRS?


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> I didnt really get wtf happened with that guitar, so someone clear it up for me:
> 
> PRS makes a guitar exactly like that, and the cunts at Kiesel tried to one up them making something that looks exactly like a PRS?



Well PRS made a guitar that's exactly like a Fender, and then Kiesel follows suit. The joke is not really clear to me since that's a guitar Kiesel makes anyway. I think it would be like if PRS started making blackmachines in very distinct colors, and then Ormsby went out of his way to make a hypemachine in that color "as a joke".


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Well PRS made a guitar that's exactly like a Fender, and then Kiesel follows suit. The joke is not really clear to me since that's a guitar Kiesel makes anyway. I think it would be like if PRS started making blackmachines in very distinct colors, and then Ormsby went out of his way to make a hypemachine in that color "as a joke".



Oh, so Jeff is taking pot shots over something as trivial as that? Jesus christ Jeff Kiesel is a fucking retard.


----------



## SDMFVan

The difference being PRS went to extreme lengths to figure out what exactly it is about 1964-1965 Strats that makes them special down to the way the pickups were built (there's a video somewhere of Paul talking about how they changed the way the pole pieces are staggered because in the 60's the G string would be wound) and Kiesel just throws together a guitar that looks like a Strat while playing nothing like one.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

SDMFVan said:


> The difference being PRS went to extreme lengths to figure out what exactly it is about 1964-1965 Strats that makes them special down to the way the pickups were built (there's a video somewhere of Paul talking about how they changed the way the pole pieces are staggered because in the 60's the G string would be wound) and Kiesel just throws together a guitar that looks like a Strat while playing nothing like one.



Well that goes without saying, because even if you dont like PRS guitars, Paul himself is an incredibly detailed oriented builder who is VERY hands on with a lot of the process, making sure his name stays clean and making high quality guitars. Gotta give props to the guy for that.


----------



## SDMFVan

That's something I've noticed about guitar building in general lately, not just from Kiesel. All these new companies focus on the materials and aesthetics, but they aren't trying to push the technology of guitar building to actually make the instruments better. I'm a mark for PRS because of my personal connections to the company, but even before that I always liked that Paul is constantly trying to find ways to make the guitars actually sound better: different materials, creating new finishing techniques, uncoated brass saddles etc. I find that stuff fascinating.


----------



## narad

SDMFVan said:


> That's something I've noticed about guitar building in general lately, not just from Kiesel. All these new companies focus on the materials and aesthetics, but they aren't trying to push the technology of guitar building to actually make the instruments better. I'm a mark for PRS because of my personal connections to the company, but even before that I always liked that Paul is constantly trying to find ways to make the guitars actually sound better: different materials, creating new finishing techniques, uncoated brass saddles etc. I find that stuff fascinating.



Jeff figures it out the best way the first time though. Really a testament to Jeff's incredible building that he's _not_ constantly refining things XD


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Jeff figures it out the best way the first time though. Really a testament to Jeff's incredible building that he's _not_ constantly refining things XD



Hey now, Kiesel is refining thier designs constantly.*











*Especially when the glaring design flaws are spammed all over thier social media faster than they can ban them.


----------



## diagrammatiks

There was one today about the 7 string trem. although that trem should work so I dunno if it's their fault or not.


----------



## Drew

Hollowway said:


> I know there used to be an “extendedrange.com” site or something that got clded into this when Chris still ran it. There was a sticky or banner or something that used to welcome people from that site. But otherwise there still ain’t much for 8, 9, and 10 string players beyond the subforum on here.


That was DonBot. Funny story, I actually started my career as a D-list Internet Celebrity on that site, as a co-admin when I was writing seven string (and maybe 8 too, I forget) scale and chord lessons, and when we eventually merged into this place a couple months on started modding then.


----------



## Jeff K

Jeff Kiesel has single handedly ruined Carvin Guitars!!! He is a total douche bag! He has ruined what his grandfather, father and uncle have created!! End of an era!!!
And in all honesty, the guitars look pretty cool, but they play and sound like shit!! and the quality is shit!! and the fretwork is a joke!!! TRUTH!!!

Fuck Jeff Kiesel!!! I will never, ever buy again!!!

Here is a repost of my moded Kiesel Guitar!!!


----------



## feraledge

SDMFVan said:


> The difference being PRS went to extreme lengths to figure out what exactly it is about 1964-1965 Strats that makes them special down to the way the pickups were built (there's a video somewhere of Paul talking about how they changed the way the pole pieces are staggered because in the 60's the G string would be wound) and Kiesel just throws together a guitar that looks like a Strat while playing nothing like one.


I think "we can make one that looks like that too" is the internal dialogue of Jeff's, taking up equal space with "they're trying to cop my shit." Not that either is justified, but he's just got the perfect shit demeanor to want to rule the internet. Know who else can make a guitar that looks like a custom shop Fender Strat? Squier. If Jeff picked up a truly finely built guitar, would he even know it? 
Is this guitar still a joke if he is the punchline? 
Signed, a person who has actually priced out Bolts numerous times before.


----------



## feraledge

Jeff K said:


> Jeff Kiesel has single handedly ruined Carvin Guitars!!! He is a total douche bag! He has ruined what his grandfather, father and uncle have created!! End of an era!!!
> And in all honesty, the guitars look pretty cool, but they play and sound like shit!! and the quality is shit!! and the fretwork is a joke!!! TRUTH!!!
> 
> Fuck Jeff Kiesel!!! I will never, ever buy again!!!
> 
> Here is a repost of my moded Kiesel Guitar!!!


But by writing in a hidden spot in your own guitar that is bought and paid for, you REALLY stuck it to him.


----------



## Vletrmx

Jeff K said:


> Jeff Kiesel has single handedly ruined Carvin Guitars!!! He is a total douche bag! He has ruined what his grandfather, father and uncle have created!! End of an era!!!
> And in all honesty, the guitars look pretty cool, but they play and sound like shit!! and the quality is shit!! and the fretwork is a joke!!! TRUTH!!!
> 
> Fuck Jeff Kiesel!!! I will never, ever buy again!!!
> 
> Here is a repost of my moded Kiesel Guitar!!!



Just wanted to say that your profile page is gold.


----------



## narad

feraledge said:


> Signed, a person who has actually priced out Bolts numerous times before.



Yea, been there. I don't know why, but been there.


----------



## Vyn

narad said:


> Yea, been there. I don't know why, but been there.



Won't lie, another here who's very familiar with Kiesel's online builder xD


----------



## narad

Vyn said:


> Won't lie, another here who's very familiar with Kiesel's online builder xD



I made it as far as chatting with Chris on FB, right after they released that antique finish. That with a black pickguard...pretty cool look.


----------



## spudmunkey

narad said:


> I made it as far as chatting with Chris on FB, right after they released that antique finish. That with a black pickguard...pretty cool look.



Something like this?


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> Something like this?



Pretty much exactly that, yea.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

spudmunkey said:


> Something like this?



Let’s call it „Shitcaster”


----------



## Drew

That kind of finish is INSANELY easy to do yourself - I did basically that for the crosspieces I mounted String Swing hangers on in my studio room. I forgot what brand of stain I used, but it was a simple wipe-on/wipe-off stain, though to get that exact look I'd think you'd want to put down a very dilute black first and then immediately rub it off to bring out the grain a little further. Also, while that's definitely some sort of matte finish, for obvious (I would hope) reasons this is a finish that would lend itself well to an oil finish. 

tl;dr - if you REALLY like that look, go to Warmoth.


----------



## bostjan

Drew said:


> if you REALLY like that look, go to Warmoth


Don't forget to make the headstock totally look like you tried to make it match and failed hard.


----------



## coupe89

I noticed in a youtube video Jeff talked about a baked maple fret board but would that really just be painted like the necks?


----------



## Albake21

coupe89 said:


> I noticed in a youtube video Jeff talked about a baked maple fret board but would that really just be painted like the necks?


If I'm not mistaken, none of Kiesel's "baked woods" are actually baked. Both necks and fretboards are a finish to look like baked wood. Personally I don't have a problem with this as it definitely looks baked without having the issues of baked woods. But I can see why people would be upset at it. False advertisement in my eyes.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, none of Kiesel's "baked woods" are actually baked. Both necks and fretboards are a finish to look like baked wood. Personally I don't have a problem with this as it definitely looks baked without having the issues of baked woods. But I can see why people would be upset at it. False advertisement in my eyes.



What are the "issues" with baked/Vulcanized woods?

The baked maple on my Suhr is great. Can't say I've run into any issues on any guitars I've worked on that have it.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> What are the "issues" with baked/Vulcanized woods?
> 
> The baked maple on my Suhr is great. Can't say I've run into any issues on any guitars I've worked on that have it.


Baked woods can effect tone, cause too much dryness of the woods, and I've heard (not 100% sure on it) it can cause issues with the wood warping or cracking in the future. Take all of that with a grain of salt though because 99% of guitar players won't have any issues. Also I'm no expert, this is just stuff I've read before.


----------



## JSanta

Albake21 said:


> Baked woods can effect tone, cause too much dryness of the woods, and I've heard (not 100% sure on it) it can cause issues with the wood warping or cracking in the future. Take all of that with a grain of salt though because 99% of guitar players won't have any issues. Also I'm no expert, this is just stuff I've read before.



Which are the exact reasons Kiesel shouldn't do it to any of their woods. Plenty of reputable companies are using torrefied woods without issue, including use as soundboards on acoustic instruments (which in fairness I think you alluded to).


----------



## Albake21

JSanta said:


> Which are the exact reasons Kiesel shouldn't do it to any of their woods. Plenty of reputable companies are using torrefied woods without issue, including use as soundboards on acoustic instruments (which in fairness I think you alluded to).


I mean.. they aren't and I don't think Jeff has any plans to do so in the future.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Baked woods can effect tone, cause too much dryness of the woods, and I've heard (not 100% sure on it) it can cause issues with the wood warping or cracking in the future. Take all of that with a grain of salt though because 99% of guitar players won't have any issues. Also I'm no expert, this is just stuff I've read before.



I'm not touching the tone thing, aside from the fact I have two nearly identical Suhr builds, one has a baked maple neck and board, the other plain maple, and they sound damn near identical. 

If not properly processed it can be damaged, but that happens with regular wood too. I've yet to run into any from reputable builders. 

The process actually prevents future warping and cracking. 

This all sounds like excuses for builders to stay in thier comfort zones. 

Pretty much everything listed are known problems with existing woods, especially ebony.


----------



## spudmunkey

They've mentioned that they've worked with some (it sounded like a very low amount), and with the limited exposure they had with it, and it very well could have even been the specific piece they were provided, they didn't like working with it and I think it cracked (which *is* a common problem with it, at least more common than non-roasted woods).

I do dislike (greatly) that they call their finish "baked", without the quotes. I'm not oposed to the finish itself, though, although I've got no experience with it in terms of feel, appearance, or longevity.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

They’ll use torrefied woods for their “baked” options, at enormous upcharge, as soon as Jeff both “invents” it and waits until a NAMM to claim to the cameras that other companies are “trying” to do it, but that they’re not doing it like he is.

This will cause the thread to gain twenty pages of people very casually joking about it while two KieselBBS members go through to quote and seriously respond to each joke with fallacious whataboutisms ultimately claiming that other brands are “just as bad.”


----------



## narad

Albake21 said:


> Personally I don't have a problem with this as it definitely looks baked without having the issues of baked woods.



This is the exact opposite of what you want. People aren't baking the necks for aesthetic purposes -- it is for the tone and stability, to get out excess moisture. Same reason traditional builders let woods dry for years, and one of the reasons old guitars are believed to sound better (together with many unverifiable things).

I've not heard of a single issue with baked woods from a reputable builder. The fact that Suhr uses them (when he complains about ebony and for a long time you had to really nag him to get it on a guitar) should mean something.

btw, just received my first baked neck guitar this week (Suhr). Sounds amazing, but I'd love for it to not look baked.


----------



## feraledge

It's an ironic situation since "half-baked" seems to sum up Kiesel pretty perfectly.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> This is the exact opposite of what you want. People aren't baking the necks for aesthetic purposes -- it is for the tone and stability, to get out excess moisture. Same reason traditional builders let woods dry for years, and one of the reasons old guitars are believed to sound better (together with many unverifiable things).
> 
> I've not heard of a single issue with baked woods from a reputable builder. The fact that Suhr uses them (when he complains about ebony and for a long time you had to really nag him to get it on a guitar) should mean something.
> 
> btw, just received my first baked neck guitar this week (Suhr). Sounds amazing, but I'd love for it to not look baked.




just curious as to why john suhr hates ebony so much.


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> just curious as to why john suhr hates ebony so much.



Cracking / warping. I feel like I may also remember him saying something about the sound of it, on a post on TGP, but I'm thinking like 5 years ago vague recollection.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Cracking / warping. I feel like I may also remember him saying something about the sound of it, on a post on TGP, but I'm thinking like 5 years ago vague recollection.



makes sense. ebony is really prone to cracking if left for a long time.

personally, i like maple but rosewood is starting to grow on me.


----------



## narad

I just go with the general belief that if you're buying a ~$3k guitar, you probably aren't going to leave an ebony-boarded guitar in such a state of disrepair that the board gets all messed up. I mean, accidents happen, but even then it's not like it's the end of the world and you have to chuck out the whole guitar.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> I just go with the general belief that if you're buying a ~$3k guitar, you probably aren't going to leave an ebony-boarded guitar in such a state of disrepair that the board gets all messed up. I mean, accidents happen, but even then it's not like it's the end of the world and you have to chuck out the whole guitar.



You'd be wrong there. 

I can't tell you how poorly people treat $3k+ guitars. Heck, they treat $10k ones like shit.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> I just go with the general belief that if you're buying a ~$3k guitar, you probably aren't going to leave an ebony-boarded guitar in such a state of disrepair that the board gets all messed up. I mean, accidents happen, but even then it's not like it's the end of the world and you have to chuck out the whole guitar.



Lol. Maybe true if you are buying one 3k guitar and it’s your baby.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> You'd be wrong there.
> 
> I can't tell you how poorly people treat $3k+ guitars. Heck, they treat $10k ones like shit.



Let's not cater to those jerks! 

I don't know, I can't speculate on what the demographics are like. I just know that I've felt bad myself sometimes living overseas and realizing in a closet on the other side of the world there are a bunch of ebony-boarded guitars getting dried out in the winter when the heat's running non-stop. But months, maybe sometimes even a year or more later when I get back to them, there's never been an issue.

I guess you could do worse by leaving them out of their cases, or keeping the cases in some place that gets exposed to afternoon sun or whatnot, but if you have high quality ebony I feel like you really have to be quite shitty to it before you encounter problems.


----------



## prlgmnr

MatiasTolkki said:


> personally, i like maple but rosewood is starting to grow on me.



You wanna get that checked out or you'll need CITES paperwork anytime you want to go anywhere


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Let's not cater to those jerks!
> 
> I don't know, I can't speculate on what the demographics are like. I just know that I've felt bad myself sometimes living overseas and realizing in a closet on the other side of the world there are a bunch of ebony-boarded guitars getting dried out in the winter when the heat's running non-stop. But months, maybe sometimes even a year or more later when I get back to them, there's never been an issue.
> 
> I guess you could do worse by leaving them out of their cases, or keeping the cases in some place that gets exposed to afternoon sun or whatnot, but if you have high quality ebony I feel like you really have to be quite shitty to it before you encounter problems.



All I know is I built a fairly lucrative career repairing said guitars. I certainly wasn't alone either.

This was also in an area known for a humid, steady climate, South Florida.

Look at cars. Some people feel that if they spend a certain amount they don't have to perform maintenance. 

As for your guitars, unless said closet has its own heating vent, your guitars are just fine. All cased up, in a closet in a house with central HVAC is pretty much the best case scenario.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

prlgmnr said:


> You wanna get that checked out or you'll need CITES paperwork anytime you want to go anywhere



I know, that's why I'll only have 1 rosewood guitar, my new Charvel (My Ibanez RG750 will be leaving the flock to cover the costs for the charvel)


----------



## raytsh

I guess that is not what the joke was going for. Or maybe I understood it wrong.


----------



## bostjan

"Baked"/"roasted" maple is a nifty idea. I get how it's more stable and less prone to discolouration, but I'd like to see data comparing its strength and elasticity. 




MatiasTolkki said:


> personally, i like maple but rosewood is starting to grow on me.


Then you might want to bathe more frequently.


----------



## prlgmnr

oh NOW he gets it


----------



## Konfyouzd

Randy said:


> I personally don't give two fuchs.


Pocket fulla fuchs and none to give?


----------



## ImNotAhab

A bit off topic but I was showing my friend a River of Nihil playthrough video and about half way through he squints, leans forwards and asked "what are they playing? *Kegel Guitars*"?

Much laughter ensued... We reflected in shame that we are both in our 30s and have children and should be beyond such immaturity... Then we made another joke about tight riffs on Kegel Guitars and regressed to being 13 again.

Good times.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

ImNotAhab said:


> A bit off topic but I was showing my friend a River of Nihil playthrough video and about half way through he squints, leans forwards and asked "what are they playing? *Kegel Guitars*"?
> 
> Much laughter ensued... We reflected in shame that we are both in our 30s and have children and should be beyond such immaturity... Then we made another joke about tight riffs on Kegel Guitars and regressed to being 13 again.
> 
> Good times.


Which one were you? Beavis or Butthead?


----------



## Albake21

Anyone else notice that Kiesel's Facebook page is now referring to their baked woods with quotes? For example they said "baked" fretboard.


----------



## that short guy

Albake21 said:


> Anyone else notice that Kiesel's Facebook page is now referring to their baked woods with quotes? For example they said "baked" fretboard.



That's because they didn't actually offer baked woods. It's just a finish they offer to make it looked baked.

Also as a side note, as someone who still orders guitars from kiesel, is it weird that I'm addicted to this thread? Lol


----------



## Albake21

that short guy said:


> That's because they didn't actually offer baked woods. It's just a finish they offer to make it looked baked.
> 
> Also as a side note, as someone who still orders guitars from kiesel, is it weird that I'm addicted to this thread? Lol


I know this, I was the one who was making a big deal about how shitty it was that they called it baked woods.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Konfyouzd said:


> Pocket fulla fuchs and none to give?


I crank two fuchs in the mor-ning, I crank two fuchs at night. 
I crank two fuchs in the bedroom just make me feel alright.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Albake21 said:


> Anyone else notice that Kiesel's Facebook page is now referring to their baked woods with quotes? For example they said "baked" fretboard.



"LOL"


----------



## Hollowway




----------



## spudmunkey

ImNotAhab said:


> A bit off topic but I was showing my friend a River of Nihil playthrough video and about half way through he squints, leans forwards and asked "what are they playing? *Kegel Guitars*"?
> 
> Much laughter ensued... We reflected in shame that we are both in our 30s and have children and should be beyond such immaturity... Then we made another joke about tight riffs on Kegel Guitars and regressed to being 13 again.
> 
> Good times.



I was at dinner last night, when a co-worker, who's first language isn't english, referred to the round exercise weights with the big loop handles as "kegel bells". I nearly spat out my drink. The person sitting across from me said my eyes got as big as dinner plates. Ha!


----------



## FitRocker33

Yea that’s a big fail.

Everybody knows you used a weighted dip belt for kegels.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

FitRocker33 said:


> Yea that’s a big fail.
> 
> Everybody knows you used a weighted dip belt for kegels.


Hitting those ZAKK WYLDE HEAVY LABIA DEADLIFTS & UTERUS SHRUGS!


----------



## pott

I went to the Kiesel showroom yesterday. I played a bunch of guitars; two Solo 7s with PME fingerboard, that crazy-top Zeus at $4k+ and a beautiful Vader with flame-maple top, gorgeous trans blue finish and flame-maple fingerboard.

Now to be clear, no guitars I saw had any issues at all.
In fact that Vader was AWESOME.

The fun part is... that Vader was sold. TWICE. They told me they had to call the second person and actually let them know they made a mistake. I guess it happens?
None of the super expensive guitars were really 'popping' to me, though they were well-built and sounded just fine. 
Fretboard on those more expensive guitars was excellent, especially that super schmancy Zeus.

I'd still feel ok ordering a basic-specced guitar from them, though I won't for obvious reasons at this point. Still, if you want to and keep it under 2k, I have no reasons to believe you won't get a good sounding and well-playing guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

pott said:


> I went to the Kiesel showroom yesterday. I played a bunch of guitars; two Solo 7s with PME fingerboard, that crazy-top Zeus at $4k+ and a beautiful Vader with flame-maple top, gorgeous trans blue finish and flame-maple fingerboard.
> 
> Now to be clear, no guitars I saw had any issues at all.
> In fact that Vader was AWESOME.
> 
> The fun part is... that Vader was sold. TWICE. They told me they had to call the second person and actually let them know they made a mistake. I guess it happens?
> None of the super expensive guitars were really 'popping' to me, though they were well-built and sounded just fine.
> Fretboard on those more expensive guitars was excellent, especially that super schmancy Zeus.
> 
> I'd still feel ok ordering a basic-specced guitar from them, though I won't for obvious reasons at this point. Still, if you want to and keep it under 2k, I have no reasons to believe you won't get a good sounding and well-playing guitar.



Except the only two guitars I would want are:

JB200SC
X220C

There is no more active preamp on the jb200s, and the sc was discontinued for that garbage 100, so screw that.

The X220, with the price increases on the Vs, even a bare bones X220 is damn near 2000 bucks. Screw that too.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Legend has it that, if you leave a Kiesel outside, Matias will shit on it. Some even claim to have found photos of a Road Flare Red RG nearby.


----------



## StevenC

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Legend has it that, if you leave a Kiesel outside, Matias will shit on it. Some even claim to have found photos of a Road Flare Red RG nearby.


Pretty sure that's Ruby Red.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

StevenC said:


> Pretty sure that's Ruby Red.



I refer to his champion not-a-kiesel:

http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-2018-ibanez-rg550rf.326471/


----------



## Vyn

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Legend has it that, if you leave a Kiesel outside, Matias will shit on it. Some even claim to have found photos of a Road Flare Red RG nearby.



My girlfriend is now wondering why I can't stop laughing and crying. Fuck. So good xD


----------



## MatiasTolkki

StevenC said:


> Pretty sure that's Ruby Red.



Ruby red is my RG5000, which is in my profile pic  I have an RG550RF that I got like two days after the Japanese release date last year in November.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Vyn said:


> My girlfriend is now wondering why I can't stop laughing and crying. Fuck. So good xD



Andrew has done kek's work. Praise Kek.


----------



## nyxzz

Never have I seen a person so dedicated to hating Kiesel

Do you work for Ibanez lol


----------



## MatiasTolkki

nyxzz said:


> Never have I seen a person so dedicated to hating Kiesel
> 
> Do you work for Ibanez lol



To be fair, I only hate Jeff Kiesel and his dumb decisions. Also, I've been playing my JB200 a LOT lately, more than anything else, occasionally going to my V220. Just in a mood to play my Carvin and Kiesel (and to be blunt, I like the JB200 a LOT more since it has the active preamp).


----------



## Seabeast2000

MatiasTolkki said:


> To be fair, I only hate Jeff Kiesel and his dumb decisions. Also, I've been playing my JB200 a LOT lately, more than anything else, occasionally going to my V220. Just in a mood to play my Carvin and Kiesel (and to be blunt, I like the JB200 a LOT more since it has the active preamp).


This rich array of topics you bring up keeps me coming back.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I don't think anyone really cares that you post so much in disagreement to almost everything Kiesel does and it validates your distaste for them. But people are ragging on you because there's some persistence to always throw in your two cents and your stance hasn't changed much at all. I don't care that you do it Matias, but I'm probably not the only one that laughs whenever I see this thread getting bumped and the person who last bumped it is almost always you


----------



## Vhyle

I'm surprised this is still going.


----------



## Lemons

Vhyle said:


> I'm surprised this is still going.



Clearly you underestimated how dedicated some people are to complaining about things on the internet.


----------



## Vhyle

Lemons said:


> Clearly you underestimated how dedicated some people are to complaining about things on the internet.



I don't think it's even about Kiesel anymore.


----------



## noise in my mind

Wow, who would have thought that Jeff being a douche would cause so much hateful response?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

noise in my mind said:


> Wow, who would have thought that Jeff being a douche would cause so much hateful response?



I've said enough as to why I think he's a douche but the fucker deserves EVERY bit of hate he gets.


----------



## MetalHead40

MatiasTolkki said:


> I've said enough as to why I think he's a douche but the fucker deserves EVERY bit of hate he gets.



Agreed! I never met the guy, but after he made that smug Facebook video only days after I returned this guitar accusing me of photo shopping the bridge saddle issues and making false claims, I lost all respect for the douche. He never named me directly in that video mind you, but it was clear it was aimed at me buy his asinine remarks. 

I still have to laugh though honestly that my thread is still going. Every once in a while there's a relative comment, but it's gone way off the deep end for sure.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> Agreed! I never met the guy, but after he made that smug Facebook video only days after I returned this guitar accusing me of photo shopping the bridge saddle issues and making false claims, I lost all respect for the douche. He never named me directly in that video mind you, but it was clear it was aimed at me buy his asinine remarks.
> 
> I still have to laugh though honestly that my thread is still going. Every once in a while there's a relative comment, but it's gone way off the deep end for sure.



That's why I have refrained from commenting for so long, but at least I could get out my frustrations at that douchenozzle. I'm back to dimarzio now, and debating putting a set of Evos into my jb200. I like the M22SD/V set but I wonder what something like the Evos would sound like with the active preamp


----------



## Flappydoodle

MetalHead40 said:


> Agreed! I never met the guy, but after he made that smug Facebook video only days after I returned this guitar accusing me of photo shopping the bridge saddle issues and making false claims, I lost all respect for the douche. He never named me directly in that video mind you, but it was clear it was aimed at me buy his asinine remarks.
> 
> I still have to laugh though honestly that my thread is still going. Every once in a while there's a relative comment, but it's gone way off the deep end for sure.



The owner of the company had a Facebook rant and accused a customer of photoshopping an issue? 

wtf


----------



## bracky

MetalHead40 said:


> Agreed! I never met the guy, but after he made that smug Facebook video only days after I returned this guitar accusing me of photo shopping the bridge saddle issues and making false claims, I lost all respect for the douche. He never named me directly in that video mind you, but it was clear it was aimed at me buy his asinine remarks.
> 
> I still have to laugh though honestly that my thread is still going. Every once in a while there's a relative comment, but it's gone way off the deep end for sure.




They sell a huge number of guitars. Perhaps he was not actually referring to you.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

bracky said:


> They sell a huge number of guitars. Perhaps he was not actually referring to you.



Ummm, I think the dude who owns the guitar and saw the livestream would know exactly what Douchenozzle was talking about.


----------



## bracky

Perhaps. Or maybe he’s just hearing what he wants to hear to justify his views.


----------



## Edika

bracky said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe he’s just hearing what he wants to hear to justify his views.



Truth be told Kiesel doesn't really have too many guitars with big issues that get returned. This is a really specific issue that not a lot of people complained about and if I remember correctly he did send it back once to correct the saddles and came back exactly the same way. So it would be one of those cases the Jeff would remember and trying to save face will comment about. Having a guitar being returned twice and posted on a public forum and their faceboom page (which if I remember correctly again got deleted) is not the best thing for them. What's worse is the way they're handling customer complaints. Even if it's not the OP the Jeff was referring to, it's really bad form to go out on a limb and accuse him of photoshopping photos to make them look bad.


----------



## narad

Edika said:


> This is a really specific issue that not a lot of people complained about and if I remember correctly he did send it back once to correct the saddles and came back exactly the same way.



Kiesel is basically "baby's first custom guitar", so if not a lot of people complained, not a lot of people are okay with having the wrong bridge installed on their guitar. Could be true, but I don't think it does anything put take Kiesel off the hook there.


----------



## mastapimp

bracky said:


> They sell a huge number of guitars. Perhaps he was not actually referring to you.


The reason I'd side with the poster is because I've seen some of the videos or posts where he does call people out. He's called out artists in a juvenile fashion (jason richardson), so it's not above his character to behave this way. I stopped watching Jeff's videos a while back, but he would post frequently and he'd sometimes throw in a few jabs regarding stuff that was conveniently timed with issues brought up here or on a facebook group. Not difficult to connect the dots.


----------



## Edika

narad said:


> Kiesel is basically "baby's first custom guitar", so if not a lot of people complained, not a lot of people are okay with having the wrong bridge installed on their guitar. Could be true, but I don't think it does anything put take Kiesel off the hook there.



Oh I'm not saying he's off the hook, I was just trying to make the point that since there weren't a lot of people at the time speaking out about the bridge aside from the OP and maybe another one or two guys it was easy to figure out that Jeff was talking about the OP.


----------



## 777timesgod

The problem with the bridges being at their limit on the Aries models is a huge red flag (among others), as is the behaviour of this Jeff Kiesel character. It is a shame as he could simply acknowledge these complaints and improve his quality control. It is apparent that he wants to change the direction of the company from what Carvin wants. 
He is heading towards territory where such quality problems and behaviour are a deal breaker for people. Why pay so much when you have other high end choices without the baggage? I guess this is the problem when there is so much power in the hands of one person, a board of directors should be in place to pull his leash every now and then. They have potential but lets see where they will be in a few years after they depart from the lower custom price range...


----------



## MetalHead40

bracky said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe he’s just hearing what he wants to hear to justify his views.


No sir, he definitely directed his video rant at me. Can I prove it with tangible evidence; nope. But there is zero doubt in my mind his comments were directed at my situation.


----------



## MetalHead40

It 


Edika said:


> Truth be told Kiesel doesn't really have too many guitars with big issues that get returned. This is a really specific issue that not a lot of people complained about and if I remember correctly he did send it back once to correct the saddles and came back exactly the same way. So it would be one of those cases the Jeff would remember and trying to save face will comment about. Having a guitar being returned twice and posted on a public forum and their faceboom page (which if I remember correctly again got deleted) is not the best thing for them. What's worse is the way they're handling customer complaints. Even if it's not the OP the Jeff was referring to, it's really bad form to go out on a limb and accuse him of photoshopping photos to make them look bad.



The problem with the guitar they sent me was not the bigger issue. The reall issue was how pathetically unprofessional and rude their customer service was. Their sales guy was the most ignorant SOB I've ever dealt with, their lead tech's attitude was as if he couldn't have cared less, and Their sales manager said he'd handle things and they did not get handled. Now we can talk about the issue with the guitar they sent me.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

@MetalHead40 

I've been wondering, since my JB200 came with a korean FR 1000 instead of an OFR like it should have, and they sent me a replacement OFR later (Chris was boss for that) BUT I dont think it was properly shimmed for 14" radius because I cant get the action as low as any of my ibbies. Should I check for shims and have them installed if necessary?


----------



## ElRay

bracky said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe he’s just hearing what he wants to hear to justify his views.


 Nice tRumpster Fanboi diversion. 

It doesn’t matter which specific customer was accused of photoshoping a pathetically obvious screw-up that should never have passed quality control.

The fact of the matter is that the public face of the company publicly trashed a customer that dared to complain (ala tRump) and return a defective instrument.

That is douchenozzel territory

/thread


----------



## Glades

Last week I ordered my first Kiesel. It's in raw-tone finish so non-returnable. Fingers crossed! 

But I took some precautions. I kept the price below $1.5k, and ordered the Contour Trem. If the saddles on the hipshot are set too high, I can always lift the entire bridge up and lower the saddles. The sales guy was super nice.


----------



## cwhitey2

Glades said:


> Last week I ordered my first Kiesel. It's in raw-tone finish so non-returnable. Fingers crossed!
> 
> But I took some precautions. I kept the price below $1.5k, and ordered the Contour Trem. If the saddles on the hipshot are set too high, I can always lift the entire bridge up and lower the saddles. The sales guy was super nice.


My fingers are crossed as well!


----------



## -JeKo-

Just watched Jeff's Facebook Q&A video from yesterday. Fanboys probably praise everything he says but to me he comes across as... I don't really know how to put it. Having watched these videos for a long time, it's just the same cliches over and over.

He's also bashing Suhr for offering nitro finishes and having their nitro bodies sprayed in a different state as it's illegal in CA. He doesn't mention Suhr by name but he's clearly talking about them. I'm not the biggest fan of Suhr but at least their CEO comes across as more down-to-earth.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

And their guitars don't typically look like an art supply store vomited profusely all over a slab of wood, and some knob end let it dry cuz, "hey, that looks kinda cool!"


----------



## spudmunkey

Spaced Out Ace said:


> And their guitars don't typically look like an art supply store vomited profusely all over a slab of wood, and some knob end let it dry cuz, "hey, that looks kinda cool!"



Exhibit A)


----------



## JSanta

spudmunkey said:


> Exhibit A)



Not that I love these, but Kiesel wishes their paint experiments were half as nice looking as those two Suhrs.


----------



## Glades

Spaced Out Ace said:


> And their guitars don't typically look like an art supply store vomited profusely all over a slab of wood, and some knob end let it dry cuz, "hey, that looks kinda cool!"



To be fair, Kiesel only builds what the customers request. If a customer has a questionable taste in colors/finishes, it is not really Kiesel's fault for delivering what the customer is requesting. Also, what you might consider ugly might look beautiful to someone else.


----------



## spudmunkey

JSanta said:


> Not that I love these, but Kiesel wishes their paint experiments were half as nice looking as those two Suhrs.



Those weren't experiments, though. Those were thoroughly designed and planned and likely tested several times before they put this out as a production option. We never saw their experiments.


Also, "Really, Kiesel? Crackle finishes? the 80s called and they want their guitars back!"

10 minutes later: "Check out the awesome Suhr!"


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> Exhibit A)



Seriously not a Suhr fan *at all*, but I'd rock the absolute shit out of that green one; that thing looks sweet. The other one....well....not so much 



Glades said:


> To be fair, Kiesel only builds what the customers request. If a customer has a questionable taste in colors/finishes, it is not really Kiesel's fault for delivering what the customer is requesting. Also, what you might consider ugly might look beautiful to someone else.



The issue with Kiesel's finishes though is that when the customer tells them what they _want_, they don't always deliver it well, if at all. One only needs to recall the infamous Agile colormatch. I've seen lots of Kiesel posts about how X was requested and Y was what they got, and yeah, like 85% of the time it's close...ish, but still off enough that if I was super sold on a picture I had in my head, I'd be disappointed; but that other 15% is just _*bad*_.

I'm not saying they don't make some great looking guitars though. @Albake21 has one coming in that has one of the best finishes I've seen in a long time.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> Exhibit A)



I've always found these to be cheap imitations of Tyler finishes. (Which is kind of my thoughts on Suhr in general—not necessarily a Tyler imitation, but an inferior version of a similar idea.) I do still prefer them to most of Kiesels more adventurous looks though.


----------



## Albake21

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Seriously not a Suhr fan *at all*, but I'd rock the absolute shit out of that green one; that thing looks sweet. The other one....well....not so much
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with Kiesel's finishes though is that when the customer tells them what they _want_, they don't always deliver it well, if at all. One only needs to recall the infamous Agile colormatch. I've seen lots of Kiesel posts about how X was requested and Y was what they got, and yeah, like 85% of the time it's close...ish, but still off enough that if I was super sold on a picture I had in my head, I'd be disappointed; but that other 15% is just _*bad*_.
> 
> I'm not saying they don't make some great looking guitars though. @Albake21 has one coming in that has one of the best finishes I've seen in a long time.


Which I may.... or may not have returned....


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Albake21 said:


> Which I may.... or may not have returned....



Haha ohhhhh no


----------



## Albake21

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Haha ohhhhh no


Yeah...... It was for a lot of reasons. It came out great, but not to my liking. For one, it looked WAY different from that picture I posted. Now a days, I really require a trem, and I am now having the opportunity to buy an Ibanez LACS directly from my all time favorite guitar player and band. So I'm returning it for now to spend the money else where, but I will definitely plan another build for the future. It was my first build and I didn't really know what I was doing. I'll definitely learn from my mistakes with this one. Thankfully they returned it, no questions asked. Super easy. The guitar itself was great, it was my own fault on what I chose.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Yeah...... It was for a lot of reasons. It came out great, but not to my liking. For one, it looked WAY different from that picture I posted. Now a days, I really require a trem, and I am now having the opportunity to buy an Ibanez LACS directly from my all time favorite guitar player and band. So I'm returning it for now to spend the money else where, but I will definitely plan another build for the future. It was my first build and I didn't really know what I was doing. I'll definitely learn from my mistakes with this one. Thankfully they returned it, no questions asked. Super easy. The guitar itself was great, it was my own fault on what I chose.



Would like to see any pics if you took any, but perhaps over in the other non-Neve-Again! thread.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Would like to see any pics if you took any, but perhaps over in the other non-Neve-Again! thread.


It's not bad, it's just super dark compared to the picture they took. When I placed the order back in May, I was looking for a blue closer to the picture they sent me. Aurora blue though was very new at the time so there weren't many pictures of it. It was a risk, and sadly it didn't work out. No big deal to me since I have another guitar being built right now which should be done next week.

It's like it's not even the same guitar. I tried putting as much light as I could on it and I could never get close to their picture. I was expecting it to look bright just like the picture, but sadly it was very dark. Again that's not the only reason why I returned.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Not gunna lie, I just checked the in-stock page.
The brighter look is definitely better, though; I see what you mean.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Those weren't experiments, though. Those were thoroughly designed and planned and likely tested several times before they put this out as a production option. We never saw their experiments.
> 
> 
> Also, "Really, Kiesel? Crackle finishes? the 80s called and they want their guitars back!"
> 
> 10 minutes later: "Check out the awesome Suhr!"



Charvel did this stuff ages ago, and plenty of MIJ crackle Charvels from the 80s/early 90s. Dont see what the problem with that is, except the MIJ Charvels look a million times better than Kiesel's.


----------



## Albake21

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Not gunna lie, I just checked the in-stock page.
> The brighter look is definitely better, though; I see what you mean.


They will be receiving it tomorrow. So if you're interested, you can grab it probably next week haha.


----------



## spudmunkey

I guess I've been around too many photographers.  My first thought at looking at the showroom photo was that the pale moon ebony in the background is over-exposed, and that flamed maple on the guitar's top in the lighter spots is never that pale unless it's bleached. I assume since there's no real white in the image that the camera white-balanced itself to something not-quite white, brightening everything up.

i've seen people shit on Kiesel for photographing the Crescent in such a way as to accentuate the carve to be more than it is, which I don't think is really the case, but I've complained to them directly on FB and IG that their photos aren't accurate. They say that they photograph them the way they do to show what they really look like...and that might be true..but it's only what they "really look like" under direct San Diego sun, and not in any realistic environment in the real world that most other people live in, or how most other makers photograph their builds. Taking a guitar into the sun should wow you...not be the expectation of what it would actually look like normally, i think.

And while I'd be more accepting of the saturation "pop" in sicial media posts if it didn't carry through to the photographs of the in-stock guitars. There's got to be some happy medium between their photos, and the garbage "the guitar might as well just be black since you can't actually make out any details" photos that guitar Center uses for the used instruments.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> I guess I've been around too many photographers.  My first thought at looking at the showroom photo was that the pale moon ebony in the background is over-exposed, and that flamed maple on the guitar's top in the lighter spots is never that pale unless it's bleached. I assume since there's no real white in the image that the camera white-balanced itself to something not-quite white, brightening everything up.
> 
> i've seen people shit on Kiesel for photographing the Crescent in such a way as to accentuate the carve to be more than it is, which I don't think is really the case, but I've complained to them directly on FB and IG that their photos aren't accurate. They say that they photograph them the way they do to show what they really look like...and that might be true..but it's only what they "really look like" under direct San Diego sun, and not in any realistic environment in the real world that most other people live in, or how most other makers photograph their builds. Taking a guitar into the sun should wow you...not be the expectation, i think.
> 
> And while I'd be more accepting of the saturation "pop" in sicial media posts if it didn't carry through to the photographs of the in-stock guitars. There's got to be some happy medium between their photos, and the garbage "the guitar might as well just be black since you can't actually make out any details" photos that guitar Center uses for the used instruments.



Like...I would never ever consider their "Fire" finish based on their Ronald McDonald-lookin' bright yellow and red marketing photos.





The funny thing is, while I still don't like it enough to buy it, i can see how it might appeal to someone and wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> I guess I've been around too many photographers.  My first thought at looking at the showroom photo was that the pale moon ebony in the background is over-exposed, and that flamed maple on the guitar's top in the lighter spots is never that pale unless it's bleached. I assume since there's no real white in the image that the camera white-balanced itself to something not-quite white, brightening everything up.
> 
> i've seen people shit on Kiesel for photographing the Crescent in such a way as to accentuate the carve to be more than it is, which I don't think is really the case, but I've complained to them directly on FB and IG that their photos aren't accurate. They say that they photograph them the way they do to show what they really look like...and that might be true..but it's only what they "really look like" under direct San Diego sun, and not in any realistic environment in the real world that most other people live in, or how most other makers photograph their builds. Taking a guitar into the sun should wow you...not be the expectation, i think.
> 
> And while I'd be more accepting of the saturation "pop" in sicial media posts if it didn't carry through to the photographs of the in-stock guitars. There's got to be some happy medium between their photos, and the garbage "the guitar might as well just be black since you can't actually make out any details" photos that guitar Center uses for the used instruments.



That's definitely a lie. The picture they posted of my JB200 was MUCH brighter than the actual guitar, as I've taken both indoor AND outdoor pics of it. Nothing I have ever taken has come close to the exposure that was on the Guitars of the Day on FB. i'd need to upload the pic of the FB pic, but i have plenty of outdoor pics of it.

Also, you think anyone, even Chris, would be as honest to say "yeah we over expose the pics to make them look nicer" or "We photoshop them a bit?" Hell no. Also, anyone with any eye for pictures can tell that they are WAY brighter in their pics than any pic a customer has taken on their own. It's marketing and they'd never admit to fudging stuff like that.


----------



## SDMFVan

It's a well known fact that they ramp up the HDR on their photos to make the colors pop.


----------



## Edika

Albake21 said:


> It's not bad, it's just super dark compared to the picture they took. When I placed the order back in May, I was looking for a blue closer to the picture they sent me. Aurora blue though was very new at the time so there weren't many pictures of it. It was a risk, and sadly it didn't work out. No big deal to me since I have another guitar being built right now which should be done next week.
> 
> It's like it's not even the same guitar. I tried putting as much light as I could on it and I could never get close to their picture. I was expecting it to look bright just like the picture, but sadly it was very dark. Again that's not the only reason why I returned.



Now that's photoshoping. If I'd seen the photos without knowing it's the same guitar I'd thougt they were two different instruments.


----------



## Albake21

Edika said:


> Now that's photoshoping. If I'd seen the photos without knowing it's the same guitar I'd thougt they were two different instruments.


Something has to be going on, because I tried my absolute best to get it to look like the picture, and I absolutely couldn't come even close.


----------



## Edika

Albake21 said:


> Something has to be going on, because I tried my absolute best to get it to look like the picture, and I absolutely couldn't come even close.



In order to make blue look like turquoise the color balance must be touched up. It's not only overexposure.


----------



## prlgmnr

Albake21 said:


> It's not bad, it's just super dark compared to the picture they took.



What are they hoping to achieve with that other than guaranteeing an unsatisfied customer?

"Here is a photo of how your guitar definitely doesn't look, I'm looking forward to your extreme disappointment when you open your package"


----------



## budda

xzacx said:


> I've always found these to be cheap imitations of Tyler finishes. (Which is kind of my thoughts on Suhr in general—not necessarily a Tyler imitation, but an inferior version of a similar idea.) I do still prefer them to most of Kiesels more adventurous looks though.



Having no experience with tyler and very limited time at a suhr dealer, Im curious to know what makes Suhr inferior?


----------



## Glades

Albake21 said:


> They will be receiving it tomorrow. So if you're interested, you can grab it probably next week haha.



Dude why did you photoshop your pictures to make it look darker/duller than in reality?


----------



## narad

Albake21 said:


> It's not bad, it's just super dark compared to the picture they took. When I placed the order back in May, I was looking for a blue closer to the picture they sent me. Aurora blue though was very new at the time so there weren't many pictures of it. It was a risk, and sadly it didn't work out. No big deal to me since I have another guitar being built right now which should be done next week.
> 
> It's like it's not even the same guitar. I tried putting as much light as I could on it and I could never get close to their picture. I was expecting it to look bright just like the picture, but sadly it was very dark. Again that's not the only reason why I returned.



Honestly that looks pretty fair -- that's just the showroom lighting effect. You can't expect them to take their presentation photos in sub-par lighting like the kind most of us have in our homes. And could be a longer shutter time. I love to hate on Kiesel but I don't see much misrepresentation here.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> Honestly that looks pretty fair -- that's just the showroom lighting effect. You can't expect them to take their presentation photos in sub-par lighting like the kind most of us have in our homes. And could be a longer shutter time. I love to hate on Kiesel but I don't see much misrepresentation here.



Maybe not misrepresentation, but definitely a let down for people who are buying them. they expect something and they dont get it. Photoshopping or using pro lighting like that will only make people disappointed in what they receive.


----------



## xzacx

budda said:


> Having no experience with tyler and very limited time at a suhr dealer, Im curious to know what makes Suhr inferior?



Well, to be fair, Tyler is probably in a higher pricing tier, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison. And part of this is personal preference—I'm not a fan of Suhr's typically narrow nut width or neck profiles. But I just think there's a higher level of design, finishing, originality, and attention to detail with Tyler. 

Tyler necks are the most incredible I've ever touched. The fretboard edges are so rounded that they actually look scalloped when you look down from a playing position. They're just the best playing bolt-ons I've ever used. Those Schmear finishes are ridiculous in person too, so much more depth and just overall better execution than the similar Suhrs. Here's a picture of a friend of mine's that I'm probably going to buy sooner than later. I think this shows it off pretty well, but much cooler in real life.






I think the designs are a lot more original too. They're all different takes on the Super Strat when it comes down to it, but I appreciate the Tyler as more of it's own thing. The headstock is obviously polarizing. I love it personally, a lot hate it, but from a graphic design standpoint I think there's a lot to appreciate even if you're not a fan. The way the logo graphics play off the shape and wrap around is just a different level of detail that Suhr doesn't have.

At the end of the day, I base this opinion just from experience. I've owned a few Suhrs and played a handful more, and never understood why they're held is such high regard. Maybe I've just gotten unlucky and played nothing but duds, but of them have sounded very good, which is objective—fair enough. More importantly they haven't even played very good either. I'm not a big bolt-on fan, but I'd take Tylers and Charvel Custom Shops all day over Suhr. 

Sorry this got so far off topic for the thread, just wanted to answer your question.


----------



## budda

Thanks! Did you find the tylers were set up more to your preferences whereas the suhrs were not?


----------



## Albake21

narad said:


> Honestly that looks pretty fair -- that's just the showroom lighting effect. You can't expect them to take their presentation photos in sub-par lighting like the kind most of us have in our homes. And could be a longer shutter time. I love to hate on Kiesel but I don't see much misrepresentation here.


If I can't get anywhere close to their photo even when putting a shit ton of light on it, we have a serous problem.... I love Kiesel and I will defend them with pretty much everything, but that is absolute bullshit to think that. I'm not saying it should look exactly like their photos by any mean, but come on man.... I couldn't get close no matter what I did. I put SO much lighting on it, still didn't come close. I'm not talking about natural lighting.... I fucking put two lamps in my super bright bathroom and still nothing.


----------



## narad

Albake21 said:


> If I can't get anywhere close to their photo even when putting a shit ton of light on it, we have a serous problem.... I love Kiesel and I will defend them with pretty much everything, but that is absolute bullshit to think that. I'm not saying it should look exactly like their photos by any mean, but come on man.... I couldn't get close no matter what I did. I put SO much lighting on it, still didn't come close. I'm not talking about natural lighting.... I fucking put two lamps in my super bright bathroom and still nothing.



If it's post-processed, I'm there with you. I think they just know how to shoot their own guitars. 

I mean, do you go on Tinder, take a photo of you at work with one eye half shut taken with your webcam and put it on there, or do you take all the ones where you have a great smile, from a good angle, and the lighting was perfect, looking suave AF? They're advertising their guitars -- they're going to present the best reality. The key here being that it should be *a* reality.

You should see my Hartung photos. The thing I ordered: tigers-eye. The photo he sent: cherry sunburst. What I got: maybe tea-burst. Hartung's a good bit above Kiesel on the price and quality ladder and the guy can't even send me photos that would pass as the same guitar.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

narad said:


> I mean, do you go on Tinder, take a photo of you at work with one eye half shut taken with your webcam and put it on there, or do you take all the ones where you have a great smile, from a good angle, and the lighting was perfect, looking suave AF? They're advertising their guitars -- they're going to present the best reality. The key here being that it should be *a* reality.



Buuuuuut if you hit up some chick on Tinder and only find out once you get to the date that she's actually a solid 100lbs bigger than what you signed up for, you're probably going to be a bit put off.

I get what you're saying, marketing has it's place and people need to sell their product, but as a consumer wouldn't we prefer to just see what we're getting? The fact that Kiesel doesn't do this confuses me, because like I've said, they make some _*awesome*_ looking guitars. In my opinion, they don't even _need_ overexposed, pristine lighting marketing photos. Just looking at the shots he posted himself, I'd still totally buy that guitar. The difference is that if I didn't see those photos and I bought it based off of the nice stock shot, I'd still enjoy the guitar, but there'd always be that nagging, back-of-my-mind feeling of "_but it could be better," _where if I bought the guitar based off of the photos he posted himself and never saw the in stock one, I wouldn't know any better, and would be too busy shredding to care.

It's like when you buy something like a nice TV and you feel you got a good deal, but then two weeks later you're back at the store and you see it on sale for $400 less than you paid somewhere else. Like yeah, it's still a good TV and I'm glad I bought it, but damn dude I could have saved 400 bucks.


----------



## Albake21

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Buuuuuut if you hit up some chick on Tinder and only find out once you get to the date that she's actually a solid 100lbs bigger than what you signed up for, you're probably going to be a bit put off.
> 
> I get what you're saying, marketing has it's place and people need to sell their product, but as a consumer wouldn't we prefer to just see what we're getting? The fact that Kiesel doesn't do this confuses me, because like I've said, they make some _*awesome*_ looking guitars. In my opinion, they don't even _need_ overexposed, pristine lighting marketing photos. Just looking at the shots he posted himself, I'd still totally buy that guitar. The difference is that if I didn't see those photos and I bought it based off of the nice stock shot, I'd still enjoy the guitar, but there'd always be that nagging, back-of-my-mind feeling of "_but it could be better," _where if I bought the guitar based off of the photos he posted himself and never saw the in stock one, I wouldn't know any better, and would be too busy shredding to care.
> 
> It's like when you buy something like a nice TV and you feel you got a good deal, but then two weeks later you're back at the store and you see it on sale for $400 less than you paid somewhere else. Like yeah, it's still a good TV and I'm glad I bought it, but damn dude I could have saved 400 bucks.


Couldn't have said it any better myself.


----------



## xzacx

budda said:


> Thanks! Did you find the tylers were set up more to your preferences whereas the suhrs were not?



Yeah, I'm sure that's part of it. As we all know, a good setup can be a difference maker for pretty much any half-decent guitar. But more-so than just my preferences, I've played more than one new Suhr that I'd objectively say wasn't set up to anyone's preferences—just bad fretting out and buzz everywhere. Could have ultimately been the dealers' faults, but I've played enough Suhrs I've been unimpressed with that I've just accepted that they're not for me.


----------



## narad

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Buuuuuut if you hit up some chick on Tinder and only find out once you get to the date that she's actually a solid 100lbs bigger than what you signed up for, you're probably going to be a bit put off.



Humor aside, it kind of missed my last point: the pic captured a reality (assuming no doctoring). Just because your lighting at home is less than that ideal, doesnt make kiesel the bad guy. Are we going to require every guitar manufacturer to take photos in natural lighting with last year's iPhone so we know what it's going to look like at home? Is there *any* precedent for intentionally taking worse photos than the team is capable of?


----------



## Seabeast2000

I like DCGL's method, just shoot all of them in the parking lot in sunlight. Not in some boudoir by a guy wearing a beret.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

narad said:


> Humor aside, it kind of missed my last point: the pic captured a reality (assuming no doctoring). Just because your lighting at home is less than that ideal, doesnt make kiesel the bad guy. Are we going to require every guitar manufacturer to take photos in natural lighting with last year's iPhone so we know what it's going to look like at home? Is there *any* precedent for intentionally taking worse photos than the team is capable of?



I think we're _juuuust_ missing each other here, because I see what you're saying.
What I'm saying is that I just wish that all of the photos coming from the shop weren't exceptionally well done photographs, set up for maximum effect with the best possible lighting, etc; and they were just a bit closer to reality. Like when Jeff had that phase were he would snap a photo of the guitar right after finishing with his phone like...on the workshop floor. I'm not saying I want them to take the guitar to a poorly lit room with a shitty camera and take a 480p picture of it; but just something less....trade show-ey..

And I understand that they won't do this, because marketing moves product. To circle back to the TV example, when I check specs for a refresh rate, I want to see _the refresh rate_, not a _*240hz motion rate!!*_ when it's actually just a 60hz panel, because I know that's just marketing. I'm not saying they're "the bad guy," just that marketing bullshit is obnoxious as a consumer and when the product is more than capable of standing on it's own, I personally really don't understand the need.
I like Cliff at Fractal. His whole tagline is "I don't make things to be cheap, I make them to be good," and they are. So they sell.


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> If I can't get anywhere close to their photo even when putting a shit ton of light on it, we have a serous problem.... I love Kiesel and I will defend them with pretty much everything, but that is absolute bullshit to think that. I'm not saying it should look exactly like their photos by any mean, but come on man.... I couldn't get close no matter what I did. I put SO much lighting on it, still didn't come close. I'm not talking about natural lighting.... I fucking put two lamps in my super bright bathroom and still nothing.



But you ordered it though, right? Isn't this more that they got the color too dark, or you ordered it too dark? You didn't buy it based on the photo if I'm not mistaken. 

Also, I don't say this to be rude, but "putting so much lighting" on something isn't necessarily the way you get those results. 

You weren't happy with it and they took it back, that's all that matters. I think Kiesel has worse offenses than this though, including the majority of its designs.


----------



## Albake21

xzacx said:


> But you ordered it though, right? Isn't this more that they got the color too dark, or you ordered it too dark? You didn't buy it based on the photo if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Also, I don't say this to be rude, but "putting so much lighting" on something isn't necessarily the way you get those results.
> 
> You weren't happy with it and they took it back, that's all that matters. I think Kiesel has worse offenses than this though, including the majority of its designs.


Oh of course, hell it wasn't even the main reason I returned it. I'm not mad at my case specifically, just as a whole with how they take their pictures. 

I'm not mad at all how it came out, it's Aurora blue, it's what I ordered. In May when I ordered, they only had a couple examples of Aurora blue which looked a lot brighter than this. Not as bright as mine in the photo, but way brighter than what I got. I knew it was a risk, but I took it in hopes of getting a bright blue. Sadly what I got though was not that.

I learned my lesson and now know that their pictures are way brighter and more colorful than the final product. Some of you guys sound like I should know this already.... I don't know shit about photography, and as a guitar player, why should I? 

Again, I'm not upset in my case at all. They returned it super easy, no hassle at all. I'm upset because I now know the truth about their photos being a completely different (looking wise, not literally) guitar than what you get. I get they have to show their guitars in good light and make them marketable, but my god that's a completely different guitar...


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> I couldn't get close no matter what I did. I put SO much lighting on it, still didn't come close. I'm not talking about natural lighting.... I fucking put two lamps in my super bright bathroom and still nothing.



So...I don't know of a way to describe something without sounding like some sort of condescending know-it-all, or is somehow defending Kiesel because as I've said, their photos are unrealistic.

But...that comment above, you mentioned bathroom lighting and lamps. I think, and you'll probably scoff at this, but I think the KIND of light is more important than you think.

What I can say is that bright light isn't all created equal. In their showroom, they have incredibly high CRI spots, while keeping with a relatively warmish color temperature compared to sunlight and the color of lighting you likely have in your bathroom. The tyle of lighting they have in their showroom is basically the exact type of lighting you'd find in a jewelry display case. Take a diamond out of the case, and the crazy bright, saturated, refracted colors suddenly become muted and effectively grayscale. You won't notice much of a difference with solid paint, but transparent paints with wood figuring is really reactive to different lighting.

Again, I'm not saying that their photo is representative of what it will look like in your lap, but looking at your and their photo, I can see why it's like it is, with minimal processing:
1) the glossy finish in your photo is reflecting a white ceiling or wall. That's a depth/contrast killer. Everything light-ish gets washed out.
2) The showroom photo has a narrow-focused, very directional light. Even a table/floor lamp that has a normal "bulb" has it's light going in all sorts of directions. By having a narrow, directional "beam", you get the super saturated colors, highlights and lowlights, and the way that it's illuminated is a way that prevents it from reflecting anything other than black.
2) A very very high-quality, high CRI light.


This, with very directional, high CRI lighting, and zero processing (other than saving the RAW file directly to a JPG with no adjustments):






Is the same guitar as this, in a room with a super super bright (but somewhat warm-colored) overhead light (I had to turn the exposure down a bit to avoid blown-out whites):





And did you see that black one on the right in the image above?

That's this one, which is in direct sunlight, but still looks washed out because it's reflecting the sun-lit concrete...





While this one is still reflecting a light-colored ceiling, but at least it's not being illuminated by an area bulb in the room. The only light source is the light coming in from the side. Compare the upper bouts above the pickup switch...in the outdoor-lit photo, there's barely any flames in the area, but in the image below, it's super clear and defined.






So again, to be clear, I'm not saying there's no reason to not think their photography is a bit dishonest, because at best it's hot helpful, and at worst it's way more unrealistic than almost every other company's photography... but I can honestly say that it's plausible (and in my mind actually more likely) that the lighting is the culprit, rather than editing....which I do know they've also done sometimes (to be clear, most of the super obvious HDR ones that come up in google image searches are images other people have re-uploaded to pinterest after editing themselves. There's even one guy who posts pictures of his guitar with all sorts of brightly colored green and fuscia lighting and it wows people every time, and they ask "What's the finish on that?". All he ever says is the paint colors, but makes no mention of the fact that it's under colored lighting. When you see the same guitar in video in normal lighting, it's darker, and more drab, and way less bright.

The "factory walk-through" photos are generally better than the showroom or official staged photographs with the black background, if that's helpful at all.

The same guitars in that photo above hanging on the wall are in a room with nearly 400w equivalent lighting, are the same guitars in the image below, with less, but higher-quality and directional (with the use of a honeycomb light filter thing) studio lighting, in an otherwise dark room. Again, zero processing:





Even just look at the headstocks of the two electrics, which don't have the spotlights shining directly on them in this photo. They are way way darker.

Probably the best chance of simulating the "showroom" experience would be if you had a recessed light, especially in a hallway. If you put the guitar directly under it, and lower the rest of the lighting in the house, especially in any areas that would be reflecting in the top....but even then, the type of light in that can will also play a large part.


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> So...I don't know of a way to describe something without sounding like some sort of condescending know-it-all, or is somehow defending Kiesel because as I've said, their photos are unrealistic.
> 
> But...that comment above, you mentioned bathroom lighting and lamps. I think, and you'll probably scoff at this, but I think the KIND of light is more important than you think.
> 
> What I can say is that bright light isn't all created equal. In their showroom, they have incredibly high CRI spots, while keeping with a relatively warmish color temperature compared to sunlight and the color of lighting you likely have in your bathroom. The tyle of lighting they have in their showroom is basically the exact type of lighting you'd find in a jewelry display case. Take a diamond out of the case, and the crazy bright, saturated, refracted colors suddenly become muted and effectively grayscale. You won't notice much of a difference with solid paint, but transparent paints with wood figuring is really reactive to different lighting.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that their photo is representative of what it will look like in your lap, but looking at your and their photo, I can see why it's like it is, with minimal processing:
> 1) the glossy finish in your photo is reflecting a white ceiling or wall. That's a depth/contrast killer. Everything light-ish gets washed out.
> 2) The showroom photo has a narrow-focused, very directional light. Even a table/floor lamp that has a normal "bulb" has it's light going in all sorts of directions. By having a narrow, directional "beam", you get the super saturated colors, highlights and lowlights, and the way that it's illuminated is a way that prevents it from reflecting anything other than black.
> 2) A very very high-quality, high CRI light.
> 
> 
> This, with very directional, high CRI lighting, and zero processing (other than saving the RAW file directly to a JPG with no adjustments):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is the same guitar as this, in a room with a super super bright (but somewhat warm-colored) overhead light (I had to turn the exposure down a bit to avoid blown-out whites):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And did you see that black one on the right in the image above?
> 
> That's this one, which is in direct sunlight, but still looks washed out because it's reflecting the sun-lit concrete...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this one is still reflecting a light-colored ceiling, but at least it's not being illuminated by an area bulb in the room. The only light source is the light coming in from the side. Compare the upper bouts above the pickup switch...in the outdoor-lit photo, there's barely any flames in the area, but in the image below, it's super clear and defined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So again, to be clear, I'm not saying there's no reason to not think their photography is a bit dishonest, because at best it's hot helpful, and at worst it's way more unrealistic than almost every other company's photography... but I can honestly say that it's plausible (and in my mind actually more likely) that the lighting is the culprit, rather than editing....which I do know they've also done sometimes (to be clear, most of the super obvious HDR ones that come up in google image searches are images other people have re-uploaded to pinterest after editing themselves. There's even one guy who posts pictures of his guitar with all sorts of brightly colored green and fuscia lighting and it wows people every time, and they ask "What's the finish on that?". All he ever says is the paint colors, but makes no mention of the fact that it's under colored lighting. When you see the same guitar in video in normal lighting, it's darker, and more drab, and way less bright.
> 
> The "factory walk-through" photos are generally better than the showroom or official staged photographs with the black background, if that's helpful at all.
> 
> The same guitars in that photo above hanging on the wall are in a room with nearly 400w equivalent lighting, are the same guitars in the image below, with less, but higher-quality and directional (with the use of a honeycomb light filter thing) studio lighting, in an otherwise dark room. Again, zero processing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even just look at the headstocks of the two electrics, which don't have the spotlights shining directly on them in this photo. They are way way darker.
> 
> Probably the best chance of simulating the "showroom" experience would be if you had a recessed light, especially in a hallway. If you put the guitar directly under it, and lower the rest of the lighting in the house, especially in any areas that would be reflecting in the top....but even then, the type of light in that can will also play a large part.


While I appreciate the well thought out post I'll only say it one more time. I'm a guitar player, not a photographer. I don't know anything about lighting, why should I? That's my point here. Kiesel customers are guitar players, the average person does not know this and they shouldn't need to.


----------



## xzacx

Albake21 said:


> I'm not mad at all how it came out, it's Aurora blue, it's what I ordered. In May when I ordered, they only had a couple examples of Aurora blue which looked a lot brighter than this. Not as bright as mine in the photo, but way brighter than what I got. I knew it was a risk, but I took it in hopes of getting a bright blue. Sadly what I got though was not that.



I wonder if they have a color that does look more like that? It almost looks more like a shade of green to me. It really did look like a great color in the picture. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it immediately reminded me of the finish on this 7 string Demon from a while back that I really liked.


----------



## Albake21

xzacx said:


> I wonder if they have a color that does look more like that? It almost looks more like a shade of green to me. It really did look like a great color in the picture. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it immediately reminded me of the finish on this 7 string Demon from a while back that I really liked.


Damn... yeah that's pretty sweet. I'd prefer it to be more lighter blue than green, but I'd happily take that!

All in all, I'm not upset at Kiesel about my build in any way and I plan on putting in another build in the future. It will probably be a pearl white, no more messing with colors haha.


----------



## Glades

A lot of cork-sniffing going on in this thread. What has our society come to, that a custom company builds you a high quality instrument, specially for you at a really affordable price, with the specs you request, and you get upset about it not being the right shade of green. Give me a break. Play the damn thing.


----------



## Albake21

Glades said:


> A lot of cork-sniffing going on in this thread. What has our society come to, that a custom company builds you a high quality instrument, specially for you at a really affordable price, with the specs you request, and you get upset about it not being the right shade of green. Give me a break. Play the damn thing.


.....talk about someone being salty. I already said that wasn't the reason why I returned it.


----------



## btbg

Glades said:


> A lot of cork-sniffing going on in this thread. What has our society come to, that a custom company builds you a high quality instrument, specially for you at a really affordable price, with the specs you request, and you get upset about it not being the right shade of green. Give me a break. Play the damn thing.



Yeah. Because THAT is the only problem people have with Kiesel.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

spudmunkey said:


> Photography cliffnotes



As someone who is also not a photographer, this was a really interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to type this up; I've noticed a lot of this stuff in taking my own photos for guitars I'm listing on Reverb, etc; but it's cool to see it all spelled out like this.

@Glades, he said the main reason it got returned was because his needs have changed and he's more of a trem player now. Kiesel was totally willing to take the guitar back and both parties are happy. All parties involved in the discussion have commented on how Kiesel makes really good looking guitars. Now we're discussing how marketing photos can potentially misrepresent a product and cause a schism between the manufacturer and the consumer. If you're going to come in and call people out, please at least read the past page or two of the thread first.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Glades said:


> A lot of cork-sniffing going on in this thread. What has our society come to, that a custom company builds you a high quality instrument, specially for you at a really affordable price, with the specs you request, and you get upset about it not being the right shade of green. Give me a break. Play the damn thing.



Tell me on the doll where Albake touched you.


----------



## AxeHappy

I'm gonna say that if one isn't at least a little tiny bit of a cork sniffer that they probably shouldn't get involved with the time, money and potential heart break of a custom built guitar and instead go buy a normal guitar for less money, that you can try first and there is no (well low) chance of getting fucked over.


----------



## A-Branger

Albake21 said:


>




mmmmmm ok stop the conspiracy theories for one second. Kiesel didnt "photoshoped" this photo

Full time photographer/videographer here:

their photo was properly shot (with a slight wrong white balance tho)

your photos were underexposed. No matter how much light you trow at them, the camera underexposed the photo. If you are shooting with your Iphone you can hold your finger on the screen till a little sun symbol appears with a slider, slide it up/down to adjust the exposure that you camera thinks its "perfect"...... Cameras take the whole image and balance it to get a perfect medium grey, so if you are taking a photo of a white wall, then the photo would look "grey", as your phone would think its getting overexposed (too bright), same the other way around if there is too much "black" on frame.

Here is your photo properly exposed (like it should have been taken on the day).





I only did 2 things to this photo:

1- Up the exposure/brightness, so the pic is correctly exposed for the subject (the guitar body)
2- Change the white balance a little bit into a warmer, so it would match the showroom of that Kiesel photo. (EDIT: actually I should had pushed more to match Kiesel's pic)

Your photo has a more "real" white balance, their photo nope. This is because the lighting they have in that showroom seems to be a bit warmer (tungsten) pretty common lighting for indoors, plus a lack of a fix in-camera (or in post). Not their fault, I only did a very minor adjustment to the white balance. Hard to tell or normal people, but for me that I work in this everyday I see it on the black of the bridge and pickups, its not "black" but rather "yellow-ish"... but very very slight

Problem comes with colors like blue on this guitar. The slightest shift in white balance of the camera (even your computer monitor), can make a color like that go from deep blue, to aqua, to green..... Search for official photos of the Jackson Bulb blue burst guitar, and search pics of peoples rooms. Guitar goes from two tone blue, to a green to aqua blue fade



but yeah your guitar would end up being "darker" in person. Their photo was a bit over-exposed (and my photo edit too, to match theirs), but jsut a bit. But thats how ti shows on a photo, see how light the ebony board and pickups are. Its a full pro shot?, nope, its a more "real" photo, I dont blame them on it. Problem really comes with the whitebalance issue with that shade of blue. Only real solution is for them to take your guitar out in the sun and make a video of it


----------



## Edika

A-Branger said:


> mmmmmm ok stop the conspiracy theories for one second. Kiesel didnt "photoshoped" this photo
> 
> Full time photographer/videographer here:
> 
> their photo was properly shot (with a slight wrong white balance tho)
> 
> your photos were underexposed. No matter how much light you trow at them, the camera underexposed the photo. If you are shooting with your Iphone you can hold your finger on the screen till a little sun symbol appears with a slider, slide it up/down to adjust the exposure that you camera thinks its "perfect"...... Cameras take the whole image and balance it to get a perfect medium grey, so if you are taking a photo of a white wall, then the photo would look "grey", as your phone would think its getting overexposed (too bright), same the other way around if there is too much "black" on frame.
> 
> Here is your photo properly exposed (like it should have been taken on the day).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I only did 2 things to this photo:
> 
> 1- Up the exposure/brightness, so the pic is correctly exposed for the subject (the guitar body)
> 2- Change the white balance a little bit into a warmer, so it would match the showroom of that Kiesel photo. (EDIT: actually I should had pushed more to match Kiesel's pic)
> 
> Your photo has a more "real" white balance, their photo nope. This is because the lighting they have in that showroom seems to be a bit warmer (tungsten) pretty common lighting for indoors, plus a lack of a fix in-camera (or in post). Not their fault, I only did a very minor adjustment to the white balance. Hard to tell or normal people, but for me that I work in this everyday I see it on the black of the bridge and pickups, its not "black" but rather "yellow-ish"... but very very slight
> 
> Problem comes with colors like blue on this guitar. The slightest shift in white balance of the camera (even your computer monitor), can make a color like that go from deep blue, to aqua, to green..... Search for official photos of the Jackson Bulb blue burst guitar, and search pics of peoples rooms. Guitar goes from two tone blue, to a green to aqua blue fade
> 
> 
> 
> but yeah your guitar would end up being "darker" in person. Their photo was a bit over-exposed (and my photo edit too, to match theirs), but jsut a bit. But thats how ti shows on a photo, see how light the ebony board and pickups are. Its a full pro shot?, nope, its a more "real" photo, I dont blame them on it. Problem really comes with the whitebalance issue with that shade of blue. Only real solution is for them to take your guitar out in the sun and make a video of it



This is really good information about the photography aspect of things. Your postpaid the one from spudmonkey does clear up a lot of things on how the photos were taken and that's just a lighting land camera setting trick. 

Their guitars are visually quite impressive and don't require light tricks to be appealing (unless Jeff goes full Kiesel). Truth be told regular photos don't get you the colors you see in real life but it would be a lot better if they achieved a more true representation of the color human eyes see.


----------



## bracky

Most of us never get to see them until the unboxing. Only a small few actually get a picture posted. It really is crazy ordering something so expensive site unseen. That’s why I have two.


----------



## FitRocker33

The Vader i recently received luckily turned out a bit better than I expected. I paid for a standard grade flametop and got the equivalent of what PRS would call a 10-top nowadays. I got a standard birdseye fretboard, expecting only light figuring but it actually had more than I expected. Even with a 5 piece neck and everything, I still paid well under 2k out the door. Kiesel definitely has the cost to value ratio down.

One thing I must say is Kiesel DOES seem to get some pretty damn good stocks of wood from their suppliers.


----------



## Albake21

FitRocker33 said:


> The Vader i recently received luckily turned out a bit better than I expected. I paid for a standard grade flametop and got the equivalent of what PRS would call a 10-top nowadays. I got a standard birdseye fretboard, expecting only light figuring but it actually had more than I expected. Even with a 5 piece neck and everything, I still paid well under 2k out the door. Kiesel definitely has the cost to value ratio down.
> 
> One thing I must say is Kiesel DOES seem to get some pretty damn good stocks of wood from their suppliers.


You're going to talk about a new guitar and talk about how awesome the top is, only to not show any photos?


----------



## FitRocker33

Albake21 said:


> You're going to talk about a new guitar and talk about how awesome the top is, only to not show any photos?



The last time I posted a photo here I got accused of hijacking a thread and all kinds of other unpleasantries lol, but since you actually solicited for one Im happy to oblige:






The natural lighting kinda washed out the fretboard so you can’t quite see the full depth of the figuring but it’s the only pic I have at the moment. May take more at some point.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Looks pretty damn good for 'standard options'! Happy surprises are the best ones.


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

FitRocker33 said:


> The last time I posted a photo here I got accused of hijacking a thread and all kinds of other unpleasantries lol, but since you actually solicited for one Im happy to oblige:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The natural lighting kinda washed out the fretboard so you can’t quite see the full depth of the figuring but it’s the only pic I have at the moment. May take more at some point.



wow that is gorgeous!


----------



## FitRocker33

AkiraSpectrum said:


> wow that is gorgeous!



Hey thanks man she plays as good as she looks too. As is status quo however, I’m probably going to be swapping out the lithium’s. I’m going back and forth between a black winter/ sentient set or a Titan/liquifire set for it. Not sure which of those two will sound best and tightest with the swamp ash and maple construction.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Not gunna lie, I just checked the in-stock page.
> The brighter look is definitely better, though; I see what you mean.


Guess it had been sold. I could not find it.

To the recent OP Albake? This is a bummer. IMO the guy has every right to return the guitar even if the color was the only thing different. I do think it looked awesome but it is your guitar so do what you want.

I am about to experience this first hand as I have the Charvel 1888 on order. The sales pictures look amazing and kind of like a matte finish.

Since I made the order I have looked around and found some real life photos where in reality the finish is super glossy and TBH with the brown color of the guitar it looks like doo doo.

I will say the specs did say gloss so that is my mistake. I won't know until I get the guitar but I am thinking I will always be bummed out because the matte pics look WAY better than the true gloss. Is what it is but I do not think I will be returning it.


----------



## Albake21

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Guess it had been sold. I could not find it.
> 
> To the recent OP Albake? This is a bummer. IMO the guy has every right to return the guitar even if the color was the only thing different. I do think it looked awesome but it is your guitar so do what you want.
> 
> I am about to experience this first hand as I have the Charvel 1888 on order. The sales pictures look amazing and kind of like a matte finish.
> 
> Since I made the order I have looked around and found some real life photos where in reality the finish is super glossy and TBH with the brown color of the guitar it looks like doo doo.
> 
> I will say the specs did say gloss so that is my mistake. I won't know until I get the guitar but I am thinking I will always be bummed out because the matte pics look WAY better than the true gloss. Is what it is but I do not think I will be returning it.


It hasn't been added to the instock section yet. Maybe this Friday.


----------



## spudmunkey

Here's a "factory floor" type photo of the same color, which I assume is likely much more representative of how their guitars look IRL, IMO, compared to the showroom photos, and that is most likely due purely to the showroom's lighting mentioned in previous posts (again, IMO).


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> Here's a "factory floor" type photo of the same color, which I assume is likely much more representative of how their guitars look IRL, IMO, compared to the showroom photos, and that is most likely due purely to the showroom's lighting mentioned in previous posts (again, IMO).
> View attachment 64234


Yup I saw this posted. Definitely a lot closer, still not 100% but I'd be completely fine with more photos like this. The tiny difference could also be because this is a matte finish while mine was a gloss. Super awesome top too! Like I said before, a lot of the problems I had with how it came out was completely user error in what I chose. For example, that chrome hardware looks so much better than the black I chose. The other problem was the darker variant ebony board I chose while I should have gone with either the regular ebony, royal ebony, or even a maple.


----------



## A-Branger

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> I am about to experience this first hand as I have the Charvel 1888 on order. The sales pictures look amazing and kind of like a matte finish.
> 
> Since I made the order I have looked around and found some real life photos where in reality the finish is super glossy and TBH with the brown color of the guitar it looks like doo doo.
> 
> I will say the specs did say gloss so that is my mistake. I won't know until I get the guitar but I am thinking I will always be bummed out because the matte pics look WAY better than the true gloss.



theres nothing wrong with their photos. Their photos DO look like gloss. I have no idea from where you looking the mate from

Theres only two things that makes you eyes think a finish is glossy
-object reflections...... which it has, if you watch the tremolo arm reflection and hardware
-Light reflections.... which it has on the back tummy cut, and around the edges of the guitar

this second one is the one you want to show, but you dont want to show too much. You want the reflection, but you dont want a big white square on the top of the guitar. And for me who I make photoshop mockups, it has always been the hardest thing to replicate in order to look "natural" not being too intrusive and still give people the illusion of gloss

Most traditional light settups for guitars have two big soft boxes on the sides(plus more), The guitar body (on a gloss guitar) works like a mirror, the only way to see the light reflection is if the light is positioned on the right angle to guitar/camera. Easy to see on a carved top, on a flat top guitar you either see a tinny stripe around the edge, or you see the whole light (a big long white square box) on the top. This is particularly even harder when you have chrome pickups, as the light needs to be almost on the same spot as the camera so you can see the reflection on the chrome, so chrome would look like chrome and not "grey". This is the hardest thing to shoot

Now you wanna show the guitar, not the light, so its hard to position both. Reason why they pics look like they are, as they angled the guitar to the camera so you can see the top instead of the light reflection. They didnt "cheat" or "lie", its a gloss body, you can see its gloss

example:





the bass is not "white-ish", the bass is black gloss. But as they angled the bass into the light then the camera only sees the big square white material of the softbox light/flash reflecting on it, which works great for the chrome hardware, but works terrible on the body as you cant really see the body top....... And before you say "but this is great", yeh on a black guitar, lets try a different finish same webstore





everything on the top gets washed out. You can tell its gloss, but at the cost of loosing the top. This kind of photo works becasue its a webstore, but for a guitar brand nope. Unless its put on a context, next to the front photo that shows the top







so yeeah they didnt lie to you, they just know how to take photos


----------



## iamaom

A-Branger said:


> so yeeah they didnt lie to you, they just know how to take photos


I'm not sure what to call it, but they're half-lies. All companies do it though, not just kiesel. Ibanez's website shows rosewood fretboards so dark they look like ebony, but in real life they're actually lighter than milk chocolate. It's not lying but it's certainly not honest.


----------



## A-Branger

iamaom said:


> I'm not sure what to call it, but they're half-lies. All companies do it though, not just kiesel. Ibanez's website shows rosewood fretboards so dark they look like ebony, but in real life they're actually lighter than milk chocolate. It's not lying but it's certainly not honest.



yeah nah, you talking about a whole different thing bro.

the OP I quoted is calling about Charvel showing you a "mate" finish in their photos when its clearly shown as gloss, and Im explaining the "why"..... Theres no lie in there, they arent pulling up tricks or anything

Ibanez on the other hand thats a different story. You cant control nature and the way wood grain would come up, stock photos would always feature the best top/grain posible, and although yes, there would be color/grain variations, Ibanez tends to have a fully opposite variations. One thing is to have a little less than the stock photo, another is to have fully non-0-nope top compared. And thats something I never liked about Ibanez too.

Best example is anything with a burl top. Best ever was the limited run of Buckeye burl SR premium basses. Majority of the basses out there in the wild (or the ones I saw in "real webstore pics") had 0 burl on them, they pretty muhc looked like a plain maple top. I felt sorry for people who spend the ridiculous extra $$ they were asking for those

My BTB33 was featured in their site with a red-ish mahogany tint (something I HATE about ibanez, they keep doing that), but lucky for me my bass was an almost black tint. Mine bit more maroon, but I did saw couple on a store that they were black black


----------



## spudmunkey

A-Branger said:


> the OP I quoted is calling about Charvel showing you a "mate" finish in their photos when its clearly shown as gloss, and Im explaining the "why"..... Theres no lie in there, they arent pulling up tricks or anything



This definitely comes up a lot. I'll see tons of people say, "Cool! I had no idea you could get it in satin!" when what they are seeing is a reflection of a soft box or difused light.

Here's a half-way decent example of this. It almost looks satin, until you see the sharper, non-diffused reflection in the contour on the top by the lower horn:





.
Satin looks satin because the microscopic texture in the surface diffuses the light. On photos like this, they use a pre-diffused light and it has a very very similar effect. Instead of being just a single small spot of light, the light source is several square feet of soft light.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

iamaom said:


> I'm not sure what to call it, but they're half-lies. All companies do it though, not just kiesel. Ibanez's website shows rosewood fretboards so dark they look like ebony, but in real life they're actually lighter than milk chocolate. It's not lying but it's certainly not honest.



Ibanez is a BAD example as their pictures are almost ALWAYS garbage. Even Ikebe's pictures are full of crap and give you zero idea of how it'll look. I learned to take Ibanez's official pics and any shop pics with a grain of bullshit.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> Ibanez is a BAD example as their pictures are almost ALWAYS garbage. Even Ikebe's pictures are full of crap and give you zero idea of how it'll look. I learned to take Ibanez's official pics and any shop pics with a grain of bullshit.



Most "pictures" from large brands aren't actually pictures of the guitars, but renders. 

That's why you see the same patterns in the woods and reflections in the finish.


----------



## A-Branger

spudmunkey said:


> This definitely comes up a lot. I'll see tons of people say, "Cool! I had no idea you could get it in satin!" when what they are seeing is a reflection of a soft box or difused light.
> 
> Here's a half-way decent example of this. It almost looks satin, until you see the sharper, non-diffused reflection in the contour on the top by the lower horn:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Satin looks satin because the microscopic texture in the surface diffuses the light. On photos like this, they use a pre-diffused light and it has a very very similar effect. Instead of being just a single small spot of light, the light source is several square feet of soft light.




yes and no

yes, they use a diffused light, a big softbox. But that would only difuse the shadows that the hardware/body edges/ect would trow. Plus the light would be more even across the body

a gloss guitar would still reflect the light source. Inthis case a big rectangular box, its like you point a softbox to a mirror and see the reflection of the light in the mirror. So the white square on the gutiar body its a direct reflection of the softbox. See the gold chrome (or any normal chrome) pickups, they are almost a perfect mirror. What you see its not "chrome/gold" what you see its the white light hitting them. Put a guy in front of those lights and you would see his face on the pickups. You can tell the softbox shape on them, and even one leg of a light stand on the bridge pickup

example






what you see in the guitar bodies is those lights.

That white reflection on the bass photos I posted is like you pretty muhc are stearing directly into those flashes/lights

Now, gloss boddies are ideally perfectly smoot. So the reflection would be "perfect", in other words you would see a perfect white square with sharp edges. On a satin/matte boddy, the surface its irregular so the light bounces all over the place and only a little gets bounced perfectly to your eyes (or camera), so the lights reflections would look "softer" and the edges more diffused

That PRS you can tell the hard edges like you said on the lower horn, but also on the lower part of the body, next to the center line of the top. Now the difference in that beautiful pic is that the balance between the light on the let of the guitar (the one making the reflection in the body) and the "ambience light" of the guitar body (or other light sources), its really small. Reason why the two blend so perfect till the point you would think its a satin finish

Their photographer is amazing as you can tell from that pic. A more average person would have mroe contrast between the lights and that photo would look more like the basses I posted previusly were the left side of the guitar would be mroe washed out/white


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

A-Branger said:


> yeah nah, you talking about a whole different thing bro.
> 
> the OP I quoted is calling about Charvel showing you a "mate" finish in their photos when its clearly shown as gloss, and Im explaining the "why"..... Theres no lie in there, they arent pulling up tricks or anything
> 
> Ibanez on the other hand thats a different story. You cant control nature and the way wood grain would come up, stock photos would always feature the best top/grain posible, and although yes, there would be color/grain variations, Ibanez tends to have a fully opposite variations. One thing is to have a little less than the stock photo, another is to have fully non-0-nope top compared. And thats something I never liked about Ibanez too.
> 
> Best example is anything with a burl top. Best ever was the limited run of Buckeye burl SR premium basses. Majority of the basses out there in the wild (or the ones I saw in "real webstore pics") had 0 burl on them, they pretty muhc looked like a plain maple top. I felt sorry for people who spend the ridiculous extra $$ they were asking for those
> 
> My BTB33 was featured in their site with a red-ish mahogany tint (something I HATE about ibanez, they keep doing that), but lucky for me my bass was an almost black tint. Mine bit more maroon, but I did saw couple on a store that they were black black


Completely disagree. No offense meant but as a photographer you're digging way too deep into this. I'm aware different lighting changes things, especially now. But the first pic did not look glossy at all to my eyes. And some of these pics look like a completely different color.

I am not sure if "matte" is the professional term I was looking for so I will just replace matte with non gloss.

The pictures look like two completely different tops and as I was saying to the previous OP, I can absolutely see why he would be unhappy and return the guitar based on getting a different shade than he was expecting (even though that wasnt the only reason for the return)

I won't be returning mine because it is what it is but at the same time I have no idea what I will actually be getting until I see it. You've already posted the sales pic which is what sold me and here are two more I've found. I just hope it doesnt come out looking like the bottom one lol.


----------



## A-Branger

yeah theres a difference in the color and grain of the top, which is fair enough. Specially on that second pic (which you can see the mahogany grain way more). Its the equivalent to Ibanez showing you a full-on burl top and then the guitar on the store only has 3 pimples on a plain mapple top.

Maybe the studio/promo pic need bit more contrast? to push the blacks of the photo a bit darker?

but again they are not lying to you on the "gloss" part of it. Those two pics you posted only look like gloss because of what?, the reflections. You can see the guy standiing next to it and the amp, and in the other you can see the floor. On dark guitar these elements are easy to see rather than if it was a white guitar.

On the studio theres no reflections as there are no elements to reflect. And IF there was a reflection of the floor (for example, because the guitar was on the floor) then thats something I would delete in photoshop, as its not a pro/studio/product shot. Again if they move the lights they have on the side to the front then you would see a big white square covering a big portion of the guitar, which is not desired on a flat top.

Maybe they do needed to add contrast, so the black burst looked more like "black" and not like "muted black", which mroe contrast (or richer colors) gives the ilusion of gloss too

You are perfectly allowed to be upset about the color of the guitar and the lack of grain ect. But you cant be mad at reciving a gloss guitar when the product description and the photo showed you a gloss guitar. There are no different level of glossiness, a gloss guitar its a gloss guitar and it would gloss and it would reflect everything like a gloss guitar does, including leaving fingerprints all over the place, which as always ther are far far eassier to spot ad see on a black (dark) guitar

they didnt cheat or lie to you on the gloss part of things. The color of the top its a different thing tho. The top looks a bit mutted, ITs not natural mahogany, so ti has some stain on it and that could be the issue at hand. Just like my Ibanez BTB33 where Ive seen them with the mahogany body in brown/red, maroon, and black... So they might have different consistency issues with the stain

I wish mroe companies would let mahogany be mahogany. The antural un-touched color of it tis great


----------



## Jonathan20022

I find it really hard to believe people are arguing about this when you can quite literally tell exactly what an instrument will look like in different lighting. This site is pretty much populated with pics in dozens of different setups and lighting. At some point you have to use your intelligence to assert how different an instrument will look like in your bedroom with your old amber tinted bedroom lamp from the manufacturer's pictures of it with the professional gear and setup.

All we want nowadays is thick maple tops with insanely vibrant colors thinking it'll look like that photo you've been lusting over while you wait. You can't take a phone pic in a dimly lit parking lot and turn it into a photo out of a professional shoot. It's extremely obvious to me when people actually edit their photos to make it look like something it is not, I'm not going to post an example because it'll be seen as me calling that person out. I take a lot of pride in not editing my guitar photos, I tried a de-saturated look early on but other than adjusting white balance/exposure after the fact I don't edit my photos. I'm going to post some examples of photos I recently took, I can pull the Lightroom sessions to prove my statement. Absolutely nothing was edited other than minor exposure and white balance changes to keep the photos more consistent color wise.






















No editing, 7pm with 2 softbox lighting solutions, vs noon in natural light with no external lighting otherwise. My JP doesn't look like the last 3 photos when I pick it up in my dimly lit office to practice after work, it just feels like some people buy their gear to stare at it instead of play the damn things. There's no editing conspiracy and if you guys can't tell when someone is blatantly editing photos, or know what you can expect to see when you open it in your not as well lit home I'm not sure what to say. The pic of that Mahogany Jackson at the actual show floor was probably taken with a phone, and most phones need their default filters turned off. Phones edit photos more than professionals do, other than having better gear, any good photographer trying to depict something accurately will setup a shot so they don't have to go home and spend several hours working on their shots after the fact.



Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Completely disagree. No offense meant but as a photographer you're digging way too deep into this. I'm aware different lighting changes things, especially now. But the first pic did not look glossy at all to my eyes. And some of these pics look like a completely different color.
> 
> I am not sure if "matte" is the professional term I was looking for so I will just replace matte with non gloss.



There are several obvious signs that Jackson is gloss, the curved edges around the top having reflections. The trem bar having a perfect 1 to 1 reflection on the top of the body, which satin guitars diffuse heavily when the shadow lands on the satin body. And regardless of all this guitars typically state wether or not they are satin or gloss in the specifications, so some research could have probably done some good so you knew what to expect with your purchase.


----------



## A-Branger

cool pics bro, but your first two are a bit underexposed. Maybe your monitor is too bright?.... or maybe you work for another company as a inside agent in music man and you have a mission to make their guitars look too dark and muted so people buy them and get disappointed with them and have massive uprising against ErnieBall while you guys sip whisky and smoke cigars while petting a cat with an evil laugh


----------



## Jonathan20022

And on the real, yeah those first two shots were taken so late that even studio lighting wouldn't help. Even if I decided to "photoshop" them, they'd have massive glaring examples of grain so the shoot was pretty much salvageable. I think people have massively unrealistic ideas of just how far editing can go, that's why stacy with the crazy hips had conveniently bent bathroom towels and sinks


----------



## A-Branger

nah, lighting was perfect bro. only thing you needed was to up the ISO of the camera.

you can still recover the photo, just up the exposure in lightroom and happy days..... if you shoot them in RAW of course, if you went jpeg, then theres a limit o how much you can push it.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I'll give them a go in the morning, I just went ahead and reshot it when I had time and was home during the earlier hours of the day haha.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I heard that racing stripes on the lens increases shutter speed; any truth to that? Asking for a friend...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

DudeManBrother said:


> I heard that racing stripes on the lens increases shutter speed; any truth to that? Asking for a friend...


----------



## spudmunkey

DudeManBrother said:


> I heard that racing stripes on the lens increases shutter speed; any truth to that? Asking for a friend...



Nah, man. That's a myth. That only works on cars. What you need is to make sure everything's nice and clean.



Alternatively, "speed holes".


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Uh, isn't that likely to damage your camera? Doesn't sound like a very good idea, but what do I know?


----------



## spudmunkey

Nah, I'm sure it's fine. They don't say they are dishwasher safe, and he's hand washing them to be safe.


----------



## FitRocker33

I heard babies and stray cats are dishwasher and microwave safe too. My two good buddies mr. Gacy and mr. Dahmer told me so. Google it.


----------



## Jonathan20022

That video hurt my soul


----------



## A-Branger

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Uh, isn't that likely to damage your camera? Doesn't sound like a very good idea, but what do I know?



same cleaning method as


----------



## FitRocker33

A-Branger said:


> same cleaning method as




Noooooooo!!!!!!!


----------



## A-Branger




----------



## Cynicanal

That video burns my soul.


----------



## RockMixer

I personally have had nothing but bad experiences with them.
The guitars look cool, but the quality control sucks, the customer service sucks, and the setups vary drastically!
Very inconsistent! Also my issue went all the way to Jeff Kiesel (DANG!, RAD!) himself and what I found was, this guy is a narcissist! I was a great customer of Carvin, Kiesel and instead of bending over backwards to try and make me happy, he basically told me to go F myself! No customer loyalty!! Watch his namm videos.....every 5 seconds its ..."call my guys, this guitar is available!" All he cares about is sales and money. Does not give a crap about the customer experience! I have a PRS that was damaged in an accident. Sent it back to PRS. They fixed it. No Charge!! I offered to pay them, they would not take it! Thats when you really care about your customers! Oh yea and my PRS's, and my Aristides are way better guitars than Kiesel will ever be! Because Jeff just sees $$$ signs! Maybe one day he will grow up and realize that customer service and quality = brand loyalty!




MetalHead40 said:


> So before anyone even says it, yeah I just copied and pasted my post from another forum I'm a member of. Couldn't see re-writing anything different because:
> 
> a) Its what happened.
> b) I wasted enough time on the whole debacle as it is.
> 
> I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to tell my story so people can make informed decisions based on others experiences.
> 
> Sorry, just had to put that out there because I've seen guys get bashed for copying their original post in another forum and putting it up here unchanged.
> 
> So a while back I received my Kiesel A6H build, and despite the fact that it was indeed a stunning guitar aesthetically, regrettably I returned it for a refund. I can honestly say that this was one of the most horrible customer experiences I've encountered, and I'll never even remotely consider another Kiesel product again.
> 
> There were several reasons I finally had enough and asked them to refund me:
> 
> 1) Horrible experience with Mike Jones, my sales guy. This is explained in detail below for those interested in a lengthy read.
> 
> 2) Action problems related to the bridge saddle heights. (Pics of this below)
> 
> 3) Failure by the techs to address my concerns despite a very detailed letter I sent in with the guitar and a promise made by their sales manager.
> 
> 
> Here is the conversation with Mike Jones, my sales guy:
> 
> Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy.
> 
> The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.
> 
> Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):
> 
> Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.
> 
> Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.
> 
> Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.
> 
> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.
> 
> Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.
> 
> 
> So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:
> 
> Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar.
> 
> Here he cuts me off real aggressively:
> 
> Mike: You know your being really rude!
> 
> Me: Excuse me?
> 
> Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me!
> 
> Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?
> 
> Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM.
> 
> Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.
> 
> Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.
> 
> 
> At this point I'm ....ing beyond pissed, and I tell Mike to have a good day and hang up.
> 
> I immediately email the billing person that emailed me several days prior informing me the guitar was complete and explain how Mike Jones just treated me. 15 minutes later Mike Jones calls back and no apology whatsoever tells me the guitars done and its shipping Monday. I thanked him and hung the .... up.
> 
> So that should have been when I told them to keep the guitar and refund me, but unfortunately I didn't.
> 
> Now for the action problem I had that led to me sending the guitar in after speaking with the sales manager and their lead tech.
> 
> I sent the guitar in to have Albert their lead tech look at it after speaking with him on the phone. Talking to him gave me the impression he absolutely just did not care about anything I was saying. Spoke to him the first day and he couldn't think of anything that would cause the issues, so I asked if he could think on it and call me or email me by end of day. He said "yep, absolutely let you know before I leave today". Never heard back. Called him the next day and said "Hi Albert this is Mike, I spoke to yesterday about my Aries 6 issues. He says " Yeah?", and there's just this awkward dead silence. Just came off like he didn't care at all. Like why are you bothering me with this. He told me to just send it in because he still couldn't think what would cause the issues I described.
> 
> Now I sent it back with a VERY detailed letter explaining my issues and asked specifically that they call me after looking at it and before sending it back because if they couldn't get the saddle heights corrected by shimming, or by replacing the .125" bridge with the thicker .175" baseplate version, then I would just want them to keep the guitar and give me a refund.
> 
> The sales manager said they would absolutely call me after looking at it and before sending it back to me because he personally put a note in the tech's work order. It never happened. They ignored my detailed letter and the "supposed" tech notes the sales manager put in the work order because after about a week I called just to see if they had looked at it yet and the same sales manager that promised they'd contact me after it was looked at said "oh, its done and FedEx is picking it up here today and its on its way back to you".
> 
> I asked if he could stop the delivery and he said he couldn't. Which I didn't believe but....maybe that was true, I don't know. I asked what they did to correct the bridge saddle heights and he said they adjusted the truss rod. I told him that I already did this in addition to making all sorts of other adjustments and that's not where the problem was stemming from. He said well, just try it out and we can go from there.
> 
> I knew for a fact that the issue could not be fixed with a truss rod adjustment, so after all the bull.... I had been dealing with I decided to refuse delivery when the FedEx guy came and it went back for a refund.
> 
> Here is how the guitar came brand new from the factory set up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saddles were completely maxed out on the 6th and 5th strings and then almost maxed out on the remaining four. I couldn't get the saddles anywhere near adjusted to match the fretboard radius. It played REALLY bad. Action was horrible. This was set up by them as requested by me in drop C with .012-.054 strings. No way the saddles should have been had to be set at that height, but even a fraction of a mm lower and there was fret buzz all over the fretboard. I thought if they replaced the .125" Hipshot with the .175" taller version that this could have corrected things. Or hell, even if they had shimmed the neck, or both?
> 
> 
> I'll just finish by saying the guitar was absolutely drop dead gorgeous, it came out exactly how I had hoped aesthetically, had no fit to finish flaws that I could find, had a great fundamental tone to it, and I truly wanted to keep it if they could have worked with me. Unfortunately however, the impression I got was they really could not have cared less.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Not to dredge up old shit where I actually defend kiesel a bit, but I've gone through Chris and everything went smoothly. I had a Kiesel branded V220 and it played great and everything, but it wasn't for me so in the end I sold it. Also, to be fair, it wasn't a quality issue besides the white primer coat showing in some places it SHOULDN'T but in terms of playability, it was perfectly fine. I just realized I'm better off using traditional strat/super strat shapes. I will never talk bad about that V220 because it was a good, solid guitar.


----------



## RockMixer

I'm glad you had a good experience. I had bought Carvin / Kiesel guitars for over 10 years. I liked many of them and several of them needed a lot of work to play the way I needed. The quality was inconsistent. If you only owned one, then it is hard to understand. But my main point was, when I had an issue with a guitar I ordered, they were total dicks to me! Including Jeff! Thats not the way to treat someone who has spent in upward of 10k with your company!




MatiasTolkki said:


> Not to dredge up old shit where I actually defend kiesel a bit, but I've gone through Chris and everything went smoothly. I had a Kiesel branded V220 and it played great and everything, but it wasn't for me so in the end I sold it. Also, to be fair, it wasn't a quality issue besides the white primer coat showing in some places it SHOULDN'T but in terms of playability, it was perfectly fine. I just realized I'm better off using traditional strat/super strat shapes. I will never talk bad about that V220 because it was a good, solid guitar.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

RockMixer said:


> I'm glad you had a good experience. I had bought Carvin / Kiesel guitars for over 10 years. I liked many of them and several of them needed a lot of work to play the way I needed. The quality was inconsistent. If you only owned one, then it is hard to understand. But my main point was, when I had an issue with a guitar I ordered, they were total dicks to me! Including Jeff! Thats not the way to treat someone who has spent in upward of 10k with your company!



I still have my Carvin-era JB200 as that thing, while it had some issues early on, a couple little fixes and it plays amazingly. It's still my #1, with my Ibanez RG550RFR being 1B.


----------



## Open Lane

I don’t understand how they could justify sending out a guitar with action that high. Something was obviously wrong with it.

Question for other buyers:
When you recieved yours, was it pretty much ready to play out of the box? Or does the company usually leave the setup to the buyer?


I just have a hard time understanding how anyone in their right mind could consider action that high acceptable.


----------



## iamaom

Open Lane said:


> When you recieved yours, was it pretty much ready to play out of the box? Or does the company usually leave the setup to the buyer?


I ordered an all stock Vader 8 through their online builder (which I've heard is a no-no), aside from the order and shipping conformation emails I didn't get any communication with them for 4 months. Guitar was set up perfect (or at least perfect for my preferences). It seems the more custom your "custom" guitar is, the more likely Kiesel is to fuck it up, and the more likely they'll try to worm out of refunding a $3k+ instrument which is where you get a lot of the stories from. They're a strange company for sure, and Jeff Kiesel is one weird dude, but they offer some niche products no one else does for cheaper than anyone else, so they'll always get business.


----------



## canuck brian

I had an old DC727 that was a pretty kick ass guitar. Most of the Carvin/Kiesel stuff i've played and checked out seems really well built. 

I can see the little messups happening when you run a semi-custom shop instead of standardized products though.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Open Lane said:


> I don’t understand how they could justify sending out a guitar with action that high. Something was obviously wrong with it.
> 
> Question for other buyers:
> When you recieved yours, was it pretty much ready to play out of the box? Or does the company usually leave the setup to the buyer?
> 
> 
> I just have a hard time understanding how anyone in their right mind could consider action that high acceptable.


all of my guitars were setup well straight out of the box.


----------



## yellowv

RockMixer said:


> I personally have had nothing but bad experiences with them.
> The guitars look cool, but the quality control sucks, the customer service sucks, and the setups vary drastically!
> Very inconsistent! Also my issue went all the way to Jeff Kiesel (DANG!, RAD!) himself and what I found was, this guy is a narcissist! I was a great customer of Carvin, Kiesel and instead of bending over backwards to try and make me happy, he basically told me to go F myself! No customer loyalty!! Watch his namm videos.....every 5 seconds its ..."call my guys, this guitar is available!" All he cares about is sales and money. Does not give a crap about the customer experience! I have a PRS that was damaged in an accident. Sent it back to PRS. They fixed it. No Charge!! I offered to pay them, they would not take it! Thats when you really care about your customers! Oh yea and my PRS's, and my Aristides are way better guitars than Kiesel will ever be! Because Jeff just sees $$$ signs! Maybe one day he will grow up and realize that customer service and quality = brand loyalty!



I had the same sort of experience dealing with old Jeffy boy.


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## MatiasTolkki

Open Lane said:


> I don’t understand how they could justify sending out a guitar with action that high. Something was obviously wrong with it.
> 
> Question for other buyers:
> When you recieved yours, was it pretty much ready to play out of the box? Or does the company usually leave the setup to the buyer?
> 
> 
> I just have a hard time understanding how anyone in their right mind could consider action that high acceptable.



mine needed a set up, and because they didn't shim the OFR, which i only recently noticed, i had to shim the saddles myself.


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## MetalHead40

Open Lane said:


> I don’t understand how they could justify sending out a guitar with action that high. Something was obviously wrong with it.
> 
> Question for other buyers:
> When you recieved yours, was it pretty much ready to play out of the box? Or does the company usually leave the setup to the buyer?
> 
> 
> I just have a hard time understanding how anyone in their right mind could consider action that high acceptable.



What was even more godawful than the guitar's action on that hipshot was the way their customer service treated me. And for Jeff to call me out publicly in a video basically saying I manipulated the pics to make Kiesel look bad...pathetic!!!!


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## RockMixer

I was a long time Carvin / Kiesel customer. Not going to get into all the details. If you want details simply google "My crappy experience with Kiesel Guitars". All I am going to say is this.....
Since Jeff took over the company, out of the 4 Kiesel Aries that I owned, only one of them played really nice! The others were ok at best, I have Korean imports that blow them away. Kiesel builds some awesome looking guitars for sure as far as colors, woods, etc. I find their fretwork and neck quality inconsistent. Customer service and the way they treat their clients is ridiculously bad! This is all based on my experience and my opinion. I am just sharing it. I own a Tom Anderson Angel. Amazing guitar! The neck is SICK! I was thinking about changing the bridge pickup. I called Anderson guitars, and Tom Anderson himself got on the phone with me and spent 30 mins talking pickups!! Thats a guy who REALLY cares about his clients and is passionate about guitars!

So anyway, A friend of mine turned me on to Ernie Ball / Music Man about a year ago. Since then, I have bought 3 Petrucci JP's. I just recently got a JP15. The necks and feel of these guitars blow away most everything I have ever played! It makes Kiesel look like a toy! I would rather pay a few dollars more and get a 1000 time better guitar! Yes! That much better!! Again....my experience!

Hopefully one day Kiesel will up their quality control and more important their customer support!

Peace & Love!


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## prlgmnr

RockMixer said:


> "My crappy experience with Kiesel Guitars"


You might have to be more specific.

This all works as marketing for Kiesel though, doesn't it.

It's like when Jamie Oliver did that show demonstrating the repulsive methods employed to craft Turkey Twizzlers and everyone was like "woah, gross", but sales went up.


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## mikolo

Yeah one time I purchased a keisel... looked great from a few feet away.

Had some buzzing across the board, took it to my luthier. Neck had a twist, fretwork is shoddy, nut needed adjustments. I sold it pretty quick for quite a hit. 

The Carvin I had a while back on the otherhand had no issues.


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## Mike

Did your kesel have that weird issue where the hipshot had all the saddles jacked all the way up to clear the frets properly? I remember seeing this was an issue a while back because of something with the bodycut/neck pocket height or something and that was kiesel's workaround to get the hipshots to work. Never saw if they remedied this. Don't even know why I really care cause I'll never buy a Kiesel anway as I already went through my Carvin phase and was never 100% satisfied with them.


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## DudeManBrother

And here we go again


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## RockMixer

I am not sure if I had that exact issue. But I had so many others.

I think when the company was Carvin, they made better instruments. My bass player has a Carvin Bass which is really quite good in feel and sound. And yes I agree, I will never buy another Kiesel! I would also tell everyone I know to stay away!!



Mike said:


> Did your kesel have that weird issue where the hipshot had all the saddles jacked all the way up to clear the frets properly? I remember seeing this was an issue a while back because of something with the bodycut/neck pocket height or something and that was kiesel's workaround to get the hipshots to work. Never saw if they remedied this. Don't even know why I really care cause I'll never buy a Kiesel anway as I already went through my Carvin phase and was never 100% satisfied with them.


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## RockMixer

Not exactly. This post is really more about how much I love my JP15! 



DudeManBrother said:


> And here we go again


----------



## oremus91

RockMixer said:


> I have Korean imports that blow them away



My LTD RL-600 was one of the best guitars I've ever owned, better than my USA Jackson even, but I'm not going to delude myself and say that Korean imports are better than USA Jacksons. If you say that some Carvin/Kiesel guitars are nice and others are bad, you must concede the same about other manufacturers at all different price points. Quite frankly a simple Kiesel build will rival Korean prices these days.




RockMixer said:


> I own a Tom Anderson Angel. Amazing guitar!



And how many times did you have to multiply the base price of a Kiesel to get to the base price of your Tommy? Money talks... more at 11! I don't know anyone cross shopping Kiesel and Suhr/Tom Anderson/etc, a quick search does have some threads about it, but everyone responding shares the same opinion, that if your Kiesel build rises above real custom shop prices maybe you should re-evaluate your spec sheet (I say this as a Kiesel owner).

This thread is the biggest dumpster fire on the entire site, I don't know why I'm bumping it.


----------



## RockMixer

Dude....you have no clue! Tom Anderson, Suhr, Ernie Ball are all a much higher level of guitar build than Kiesel! Since the change to Kiesel, that company has gone downhill! Also more important, I was a customer for over 10 years who spent a lot of money with them. You would think that would matter. Nope! They dont give a flying F about their clients! They DO NOT do the right thing! Carvin was a much better run company that made a more consistent guitar! And by the way... there was no reason to insult me or my post. This is a discussion board, so lets have a discussion!

Like I said...this is all based on my experience and my opinion. If you dont like it, thats fine!
But no reason to dis anyone!






oremus91 said:


> My LTD RL-600 was one of the best guitars I've ever owned, better than my USA Jackson even, but I'm not going to delude myself and say that Korean imports are better than USA Jacksons. If you say that some Carvin/Kiesel guitars are nice and others are bad, you must concede the same about other manufacturers at all different price points. Quite frankly a simple Kiesel build will rival Korean prices these days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how many times did you have to multiply the base price of a Kiesel to get to the base price of your Tommy? Money talks... more at 11! I don't know anyone cross shopping Kiesel and Suhr/Tom Anderson/etc, a quick search does have some threads about it, but everyone responding shares the same opinion, that if your Kiesel build rises above real custom shop prices maybe you should re-evaluate your spec sheet (I say this as a Kiesel owner).
> 
> This thread is the biggest dumpster fire on the entire site, I don't know why I'm bumping it.


----------



## oremus91

RockMixer said:


> Dude....you have no clue! Tom Anderson, Suhr, Ernie Ball are all a much higher level of guitar build than Kiesel!



That is exactly what I'm saying though, at least about Suhr and Anderson, but it's apples to oranges, as those brands are at least 2x the price of a modest Kiesel spec.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

RockMixer said:


> Tom Anderson, Suhr, Ernie Ball are all a much higher level of guitar build than Kiesel! Since the change to Kiesel, that company has gone downhill! Also more important, I was a customer for over 10 years who spent a lot of money with them. You would think that would matter. Nope! They dont give a flying F about their clients! They DO NOT do the right thing! Carvin was a much better run company that made a more consistent guitar.


These statements are all true and all seem to be the general consensus across the internet by players who aren't hype-devouring Kiesel fanboys.


----------



## Jason B

The point about one of Kiesel’s strengths being their ability to compete with Korean imports is one I don’t often see addressed:

It is precisely because Jeff understands that his inherited brand can’t sustain competition with Asian manufacturing forever that he is so focused on pushing his Costco/Sam’s Club-style “Buy Into Being a Member of Our *Premium, Exclusive, AMERICAN *Family, Bro!” marketing angle.

Jeff’s been beveling racecars with his allowance for decades; and he will never lower his SoCal DudeBrah standard of living by moving manufacturing a few miles in any one direction into Arizona or Mexico - So he has to keep raising prices two or three times a year in order to cope with the expense of being a SoCal manufacturer. The Carvin identity and safety net of “Best Factory-Direct American Brand For The Money” is being discarded on the strength of marketing, alone - And the only people willing to pretend Kiesel can compete with the Suhr/Anderson/Tyler pool Jeff’s wading into are those who only fetishize the former because they can’t afford the latter.

And that’s what’s such a head-scratcher: The long game of Kiesel’s lifestyle-marketing is dependent upon the core audience not noticing that the ship is abandoning them for a more expensive market.

The hurdle is in that this unfamiliar territory Kiesel’s current trajectory is headed into is going to test Jeff’s integrity. Mark my words: Jeff’s priorities are based entirely in his standard of living; and he will sell the company before he’s willing to do any uprooting or restructuring to stay competitive within the price-points the public perception of the brand is rooted in.

(I’m from Southern California, if it matters).


----------



## spudmunkey

That line of thinking is baffling to me. I would rather do something else, and live where I want to live, where my life, friends and family are… than up root and move to somewhere I don't wanna be. :shrugs:


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jason B said:


> The point about one of Kiesel’s strengths being their ability to compete with Korean imports is one I don’t often see addressed:
> 
> It is precisely because Jeff understands that his inherited brand can’t sustain competition with Asian manufacturing forever that he is so focused on pushing his Costco/Sam’s Club-style “Buy Into Being a Member of Our *Premium, Exclusive, AMERICAN *Family, Bro!” marketing angle.
> 
> Jeff’s been beveling racecars with his allowance for decades; and he will never lower his SoCal DudeBrah standard of living by moving manufacturing a few miles in any one direction into Arizona or Mexico - So he has to keep raising prices two or three times a year in order to cope with the expense of being a SoCal manufacturer. The Carvin identity and safety net of “Best Factory-Direct American Brand For The Money” is being discarded on the strength of marketing, alone - And the only people willing to pretend Kiesel can compete with the Suhr/Anderson/Tyler pool Jeff’s wading into are those who only fetishize the former because they can’t afford the latter.
> 
> And that’s what’s such a head-scratcher: The long game of Kiesel’s lifestyle-marketing is dependent upon the core audience not noticing that the ship is abandoning them for a more expensive market.
> 
> The hurdle is in that this unfamiliar territory Kiesel’s current trajectory is headed into is going to test Jeff’s integrity. Mark my words: Jeff’s priorities are based entirely in his standard of living; and he will sell the company before he’s willing to do any uprooting or restructuring to stay competitive within the price-points the public perception of the brand is rooted in.
> 
> (I’m from Southern California, if it matters).



Counterpoint: we live in a time where South Korean and Indonesian built guitars are breaking the $1500 barrier on a regular basis and it doesn't seem like it's going to stop any time soon. 

While the quality is approaching Kiesel, the price is too, and I'd argue at a higher rate. 

I think as long as Kiesel can trot out the fact that they're significantly less expensive than real boutique shops (Suhr/Anderson/Tyler/etc.) they'll retain thier base customers.

Though, it's not like they're as directly competing with the boutique Strat builders anymore, Delos not withstanding, anymore. They're really going after small ERG builders and between the uncertainty of newer, smaller builders, Strandbergs inability to keep thier manufacturers running and ridiculous import pricing, and the bigger names being way more expensive, they have the market somewhat cornered. Now, if the ERG boom goes bust, they're going to be in a pickle, but it's not like they can't go back to thier Gibson/Fender/PRS competition roots. 

I'm often critical of Kiesel, but I don't think they're managing the direction of the brand as bad as some say.



spudmunkey said:


> That line of thinking is baffling to me. I would rather do something else, and live where I want to live, where my life, friends and family are… than up root and move to somewhere I don't wanna be. :shrugs:



Could always split the difference and have two facilities. A smaller, more R&D focused shop in SoCal and the full production facility somewhere cheaper, while still being in the United States and a quick flight/decent drive away.


----------



## Jason B

spudmunkey said:


> That line of thinking is baffling to me. I would rather do something else, and live where I want to live, where my life, friends and family are… than up root and move to somewhere I don't wanna be. :shrugs:



It’s an international business, spudmunkey. Maybe other individuals within the company hold a conflicting “big picture” view of growth that conflicts with a single whim to remain where there’s good nap weather. By all means, base your business decisions around where you prefer to live. But circumstances (and the continued employment of a factory’s worth of employees) historically have a way of undermining that.



MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm often critical of Kiesel, but I don't think they're managing the direction of the brand as bad as some say.
> 
> Could always split the difference and have two facilities. A smaller, more R&D focused shop in SoCal and the full production facility somewhere cheaper, while still being in the United States and a quick flight/decent drive away.



I think you’re giving Jeff the benefit of the doubt that he’s as smart as you are. Your counterpoint(s) are valid, but assume Jeff won’t prove himself his own worst enemy.


----------



## Casper777

Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars? 

I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Casper777 said:


> Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars?
> 
> I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?



Supposedly it is a factor, but it doesn't really seem to be making much of a difference given the amount of guitars they seem to be selling. 

They have a very unique product at the moment, so availability and demand seem to be taking precedence over his attitude, along with other known issues.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Jeff's "peculiar" personality aside, which is completely down to one's own sensitivities, I agree with Max here - the market was quite well chosen and, in spite of Jeff's recurring attempts at jabs at brands that operate in higher echelons of quality (and pricing when comparing base specs), truth is that Kiesel does cater to a different market, namely that of the ERG buff that isn't keen on getting an Ibanez or similar guitar yet is not willing or able to fork out what the high end brands charge for their product.

Personally, even though Jeff's chosen way to present himself and his product is really as cringy as it gets, truth is that even that can arguably be balanced to some degree by some very fine people who work in the company, so the customer experience has a good chance to be quite positive in the end. Usually the proverbial tends to hit the fan when there's a defect or deviation from requested spec that is argued to not be so or result in a suboptimal solution in the eyes of the customer, and many people will take the chance or not even know that's a thing, given how it's not like Kiesel has a 40% defect rate or something equally absurd.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

I get that Jeff rubs some people the wrong way, he does me too at times. But nobody said you have to watch his videos. I get the feeling that some people are taking things way too personally. To the Suhr/Anderson crowd, why let his markering get to you? You can afford those high end instruments, I and many others cannot. So what Kiesel and Carvin offer is a really cool thing. A person would have to be delusional to think a Kiesel is on par with those other companies. No need for you to feel threatened. That being said, they are very nicely made and mine have always had great fretwork. There was some flaws on my Carvins. People pretending that Carvins were perfect are full of beans and rice. Though they had a better reputation for making things right. I would NEVER buy any Kiesel or Carvin direct from them without having the 10 day trial.


----------



## Jonathan20022

In a perfect world with Jeff taking a permanent vow of silence on social media and the instruments came out consistently awesome no one would have a problem with them. It's okay to mess up from time to time as well, but the problem is owning it.

If you have a good time with Kiesel and you're focused on getting bang for your buck then it's going to be hard top convince you to buy from anywhere else. Personally my builds were great 5/6 times, but after playing all the gear I have and have seen at NAMM. I would have eventually retired those guitars and moved on to the things that appeal to me more. I really wish Ron Thorn was still building, if there was ever a more reliable, friendly, and meticulous builder I'd put my money on it being him. The cost gap may be wide, but getting treated as nicely as that and being asked questions about your playing and specifics so he can nail down every last spec to the T is nice. When you're working at that capacity, you dont have to state that you have a return policy. You make sure the customer won't have to even have that thought cross their mind, unless of course the carrier loses it or damages it in transit!

My buddy has a birth defect that affects the angle of his left arm and he pretty much exclusively plays in classical position with his guitar facing a little away from him. Ron literally shaped and created a neck profile from a description of this to fit his hand so it helps relax his left hand more than other necks that are evenly shaped. It's still the guitar he's most comfortable with using, you won't get that from Kiesel ever. 

Kiesel is a semi custom shop that also works like a production line factory. So inherently more defects will also occur by nature of several hands working on dozens of guitars at all times, vs a guy with a small team putting dozens of hours into a single instrument. Some people dont see the value in that or dont feel like they want to spend that kind of money and that's fine. But pretty hard to go from that to being yelled at by Mike Jones for some simple information. 

And I'll always mention it, but Chris Hong is a literal saint and the nicest customer facing guy in that business. If you have to order a Kiesel, go through no one else but him.


----------



## Fred the Shred

The thing it ends up boiling down to, in my own case, aside from some antics like the "stolen" guitars from some time ago ringing many an alarm bell regarding ethics, is really a risk / reward thing. 

In a hypothetical scenario, let's say all my lovely guitars are gone - poof! - in whatever cataclysmic event. I also have no endorsements whatsoever in said scenario nor any access to anything like that, so I'm just your average customer, and being a musician I'm not exactly super wealthy to begin with. I do a bit of research to see what my limited budget allows me to get to keep things working, so let's say a couple guitars in whatever configuration I need, for example, a 7 and an 8-string. 

After checking Kiesel and their cool designs, I go out looking for reviews and such if I have had no previous contact with those guitars to be on the safe side and get a bearing regarding how things will work out, and it's especially important since I'm not even in the US, but rather in Portugal, so shipping things back and forth and customs processing is an added factor. As your friendly fellow SSO member and, as such, someone who regularly uses the internet, I type "kiesel guitars review" on google. The first result I got aside from the usual YouTube videos was this:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1797174

Equally highlighted under this one were these topics:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1745740
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1698643

Without going too far in the results pane, there's also many more of this nature, like:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...u-buy-kiesel-carvin-guitar-read-this.1745092/
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-98 (this one looks AWFULLY familiar  )
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=387966

I'll be honest - were they complaints about a finish issue of some description, banged up guitar, or even some crass mistake gone past QC, these would already be intimidating, but the true killer is how the customer support appears to be made to operate in the company, which in turn means the whole ordeal now escalates from "tough luck, a QC issue, but I'm sure they'll sort this out" to "will I be stuck with the option of keeping a guitar that doesn't live up to the hype or forking out a ton of money to fix it due to the official company stance leaving me shafted?" and, in such a case, it's basically a hard pass from me.

Don't get me wrong - I loved Carvins, and Kiesel didn't magically downgrade things in the production line to make guitars objectively worse. Customer support, however, is crucial in the relationship between customer and company since no company is immune to making mistakes (and I don't think a faulty instrument is a make or break scenario), so if due to the current policies or whatever factors may be involved in that I perceive a high risk of being shafted, I will not risk my hard earned cash.

Excuse the long rant, but ultimately I think that it's easy to perceive criticism as a way to bash Jeff, the company or its employees, while I want them to be excellent in all fronts. As in absurdly good - they have great people working there, they obviously can build a great instrument, and what I see as necessary is to really clean up the act in the post sale support and warranty policies. Jeff is a smart guy and identified a very much untapped niche in that price range, not to mention he managed to expand on it as well, so it's quite clear the ability to identify and correct things that harm the company's image is there, and that's what a great deal of criticism is about.


----------



## oremus91

Casper777 said:


> Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars?



Yeah well, the Chick Fila CEO hates gays, but I still eat there when I'm hungry and it's convenient. If strandberg had hardware as good as hipshot headless (my personal opinion) and they didn't charge you near-suhr-modern-satin prices for an Indonesian import, then maybe I could get my headless elsewhere.


----------



## Andromalia

Casper777 said:


> Isn't the fact that Jeff is a well-known A-hole stopping anyone from buying his guitars?
> 
> I mean... Apart from all the quality and service issues?


We still bought Gibsons with Henry at the helm. 
The thing is, I'm maybe lucky, but all the Gibson QC internet rants were just internet rants for me: all the Gibson I bought new have been spotless. (In prices ranging from 800 to 1600€).

As Fred said above, the horror stories about Customer Service are a much, much bigger issue than the CEO being an asshole. A lot of asshole CEOs issue good products.


----------



## bracky

Kiesel is a transparent company so you see the bad with the good. The devil you know. Both my Vader’s are great btw.


----------



## RockMixer

So its like this. After owning a Keisel, I can personally tell you, they are not so great.
The best part about them is they look cool. But the builds are not all that. Mine had a terrible fret job. The edges were sharp when I got it and buzzing all over. The neck also needed adjusting.
As far as Jeff goes. I dont hate the guy, but I just wish he would understand about business and the right way to treat a good customer. To me he has a Napoleon complex and everyone who works for him is afraid to stand up as they do not want to lose their job. As far as imports.....has anyone played a Chapman or a Solar guitar? They feel and sound better than any Kiesel I have played. They are very reasonable in price, and more important....both company owners are pretty cool people! Just sayin!


----------



## RockMixer

By the way, I personally would NEVER play a headless guitar! They look really F'n weird!
IMPO


----------



## strangers

I've played a couple of Solars, but wouldn't even consider them in the same league of guitar as my Kiesel. 

The Solar guitars were in line with most of the higher end Indo/Korean stuff I've played, like a 1000 series LTD or nice PRS SE. Good build quality, but definitely a worse fret job than my Kiesel, where the fretwork was close to perfect.


----------



## Cynicanal

Yeah, the two Kiesels I've played (my Ultra V and my friend's DC600) were both at least as good as any production USA Jackson I've played. If you got a lemon, you got a lemon, but your experience doesn't seem to be the norm.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

strangers said:


> I've played a couple of Solars, but wouldn't even consider them in the same league of guitar as my Kiesel.
> 
> The Solar guitars were in line with most of the higher end Indo/Korean stuff I've played, like a 1000 series LTD or nice PRS SE. Good build quality, but definitely a worse fret job than my Kiesel, where the fretwork was close to perfect.


I would say that's one of Kiesel/Carvins strong areas. The fretwork.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Could always split the difference and have two facilities. A smaller, more R&D focused shop in SoCal and the full production facility somewhere cheaper, while still being in the United States and a quick flight/decent drive away.



That's an interesting concept. An Option 50, Jeff rubbed his balls on it Custom guitar line made in California, and a webform "these are the fucking options, no exceptions!" line made in Arizona/Nevada.


----------



## bubingaisgod

I used to get those Carvin catalogs when I was a kid and drool over how great their products looked. 
It was like those old Christmas catalogs with the BB guns and wrist rockets you would beg your parents
to buy you. When I was 16 I started working and I saved until I was 18 for a custom Carvin DC127. 
It had the old pickups and a plethora of switches and an ebony fret board. That was the best guitar
I had ever owned up until that point. But it was nowhere near as expensive as these Kiesels are now,
and I have since found many better guitars. Hearing the OP's dealings with them I would rather
eat a shit sandwich and wash it down with my own piss than give them a cent of my money.


----------



## Jason B

bubingaisgod said:


> I would rather eat a shit sandwich and wash it down with my own piss than give them a cent of my money.



That’s K Series-only.


----------



## spudmunkey

bubingaisgod said:


> But it was nowhere near as expensive as these Kiesels are now



i know I've made this argument before, but are they though?

Feel free to hate on them for questionable customer service practices all day and night...but their current pricing isn't a weakness when comparing to their pricing from years past.

Current base price for a DC127: $1149

Base model DC127 in 2007: $859
January 2007 base price adjusted for inflation: $1068

So the "real" price has gone up by $81...but all builds now come with $100 in free included upgrades, and standard stainless frets, a more expensive standard bridge, and luminlay side markers.


But let's go back further:
Base model DC127 in 1990: $519
January 1990 base price adjusted for inflation: $1025
So since 1990, the adjusted price has gone up $124...but again, factor in the stainless fret upgrade, the $100 in included options, and the higher-quality (and cost) standard features...and it's about a wash, at worst.

Also in 1990 was the BC130...the ill-fated bolt-on that only lasted a year. That was $569, and in todays dollars is $1124...which is $25 _more_ than the current bolt-on Aries base price...and the Aries comes with those same standard stainless frets, $100 in free included upgrades, better standard bridge, etc etc.

When the CT6 launched in 2004, it launched at $1219. That's $1656 in today's money. The CT6 currently costs $1749. So it's $93 more, but again: stainless frets included, $100 in free upgrades, etc.

I won't say that there aren't exceptions. Solid, sometimes flamed, koa or quilted maple bodies used to be $40 40 years ago....but then there was also a period back then when abalone blocks were $200 (close to $380 when adjusted to today's dollars).

So again, shit on their customer service, spotty QC, or Jeff's...er...Jeff-ness all you want, but bitching about "how expensive they are now" isn't a logical thing to hold against them...because the things that make most of their guitars expensive nowadays are things that were never available back then, anyway. It's like if your favorite restaurant stayed exactly the same, except they added a wagyu beef filet for $180 to the menu, and in addition to the same beers on tap they've always had now added a wine list. If the rest of the menu was unaffected, would you suddenly say the restaurant got "too expensive nowadays"?


----------



## Jason B

That’s one way to ask if he’s accounting for inflation.


----------



## LordCashew

spudmunkey said:


> i know I've made this argument before, but are they though?
> 
> Feel free to hate on them for questionable customer service practices all day and night...but their current pricing isn't a weakness when comparing to their pricing from years past.
> 
> Current base price for a DC127: $1149
> 
> Base model DC127 in 2007: $859
> January 2007 base price adjusted for inflation: $1068
> 
> So the "real" price has gone up by $81...but all builds now come with $100 in free included upgrades, and standard stainless frets, a more expensive standard bridge, and luminlay side markers.
> 
> 
> But let's go back further:
> Base model DC127 in 1990: $519
> January 1990 base price adjusted for inflation: $1025
> So since 1990, the adjusted price has gone up $124...but again, factor in the stainless fret upgrade, the $100 in included options, and the higher-quality (and cost) standard features...and it's about a wash, at worst.
> 
> Also in 1990 was the BC130...the ill-fated bolt-on that only lasted a year. That was $569, and in todays dollars is $1124...which is $25 _more_ than the current bolt-on Aries base price...and the Aries comes with those same standard stainless frets, $100 in free included upgrades, better standard bridge, etc etc.
> 
> When the CT6 launched in 2004, it launched at $1219. That's $1656 in today's money. The CT6 currently costs $1749. So it's $93 more, but again: stainless frets included, $100 in free upgrades, etc.
> 
> I won't say that there aren't exceptions. Solid, sometimes flamed, koa or quilted maple bodies used to be $40 40 years ago....but then there was also a period back then when abalone blocks were $200 (close to $380 when adjusted to today's dollars).
> 
> So again, shit on their customer service, spotty QC, or Jeff's...er...Jeff-ness all you want, but bitching about "how expensive they are now" isn't a logical thing to hold against them...because the things that make most of their guitars expensive nowadays are things that were never available back then, anyway. It's like if your favorite restaurant stayed exactly the same, except they added a wagyu beef filet for $180 to the menu, and in addition to the same beers on tap they've always had now added a wine list. If the rest of the menu was unaffected, would you suddenly say the restaurant got "too expensive nowadays"?



Valid points. The "$100 free options" isn't a game changer or anything, as Carvin usually had some similar promotion like "free hardshell case," "free abalone blocks," or even "free $X options" in addition to the still-perpetual "half off all options." No argument about the standard stainless frets being an improvement, though.

As you mentioned, some of the perception of Kiesel being more expensive comes from some of the options becoming disproportionately more expensive (like the koa you mentioned) and some from very expensive new options being added. I think the fact that one could get a "fully-loaded" Kiesel 10-15 years ago for significantly less than now, even adjusting for inflation, makes a difference to people psychologically even though the actual value of the base model instruments and many of the old options remains about the same. A lot of buyers take pride in something being top-end or "maxed out" and it really is more expensive to get there with Kiesel these days, even though one could easily argue that the most expensive options don't actually improve the instrument in any objective, non-aesthetic way.

Just for fun, I decided to build an approximation of a "loaded" Carvin bass I had built in 2004 for about $1800. They don't make the model (BB76) any more but the LB76 is very similar and only a little less expensive. The current optioned-up bass came to $3019, which after adjusting for inflation is still about a $600 increase. They also don't have my neck (5-piece flame maple with koa stringers) or piezo bridge saddles in the online builder, and my flamed koa top would probably qualify as "master grade" these days.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I think Kiesel is exactly where Carvin was in the market: affordable, quality semi-customs. They still have no direct competition. 

I just think that the sub-$2k guitar market has matured significantly, so some builds don't seem to be as value packed as they once were.


----------



## cardinal

Yeah, Kiesel's model is most similar to Anderson and Suhr and the like: base-model guitars that you can customize the woods, hardware, and finish. But Kiesel's are much cheaper, so you have to expect that Kiesel's are going to lack something compared to those guys. That lack seems to be QC and customer service. If by chance an Anderson or Suhr has an issue, Tom and John will make sure to take care of it. Seems like some Kiesels seem to slip out with issues that aren't resolved well.

But keep in mind that Kiesel's are less expensive, so if there is an issue, you likely could take it to a luthier and have it resolved and still be out for less than a comparable Anderson or Suhr. Obviously not ideal to budget for fixing a brand-new guitar, it is what it is.

And Kiesel has a return policy, so in theory you could just walk away if you restrain yourself with the options. Though I suspect that after a return or two, it seems like the company might be reluctant to let you keep ordering (but why would you?). If ordering a custom Anderson or Suhr through a dealer, you'd probably lose some type of deposit if you returned it, but I suppose it depends on the dealer.


----------



## Albake21

I think the biggest thing people tend to forget when comparing Kiesel's QC to other companies are the amount of guitars they build annually. Kiesel churns out WAY more guitars than other custom brands like Mayones, Shur, Skervesen, etc. My point is, with a bigger pool, you're going to have more QC issues. Especially when you are the cheaper option over other competitors. It's simple math/probability. I'm not trying to defend Kiesel in any way, I'm just trying to rationalize the QC issues.


----------



## icipher

I have a very love/hate thing with Kiesel. Their customer service sucks. They're incredibly rigid and inflexible when it comes to their policies.

That being said, if you get a good quality specimen, it can be a very good value. My DC7X is amazing and I can't imagine why i'd ever pay 2x more for a mayones, aristides, skervessen etc.


----------



## Albake21

icipher said:


> I have a very love/hate thing with Kiesel. Their customer service sucks. They're incredibly rigid and inflexible when it comes to their policies.
> 
> That being said, if you get a good quality specimen, it can be a very good value. My DC7X is amazing and I can't imagine why i'd ever pay 2x more for a mayones, aristides, skervessen etc.


Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.


----------



## icipher

Albake21 said:


> Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.



To be fair, I haven't played the other builders models i mentioned. That being said, it's hard to imagine how much better of a guitar they could be. My DC7X is basically perfect. The frets are perfect, it's a great weight, it sounds loud and alive and it overall feels greater than the sum of its parts which i think is a testament to how it was built. Can't imagine a Mayones being 200% better.


----------



## oversteve

Albake21 said:


> Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.


While I agree about Artisides I wouldn't be so sure about Skervesen and Mayos, seen plenty of them with small issues like fret sprouts or poorly aligned/routed pickups. $3-5k for that is deffinitely an overkill.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Kiesel churns out WAY more guitars than other custom brands like Mayones, *Shur*, Skervesen, etc.



Suhr? Have some numbers on that? 

Suhr pumps out tons of guitars, and has for decades now. They have to supply hundreds of dealers internationally with Pro and Limited models. 

There are literally ten times as many Suhrs on Reverb than Kiesels, and four or times as many when you include Carvin in that too. 

Same with Mayones, there seems to be a ton out there.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> Suhr? Have some numbers on that?
> 
> Suhr pumps out tons of guitars, and has for decades now. They have to supply hundreds of dealers internationally with Pro and Limited models.
> 
> There are literally ten times as many Suhrs on Reverb than Kiesels, and four or times as many when you include Carvin in that too.
> 
> Same with Mayones, there seems to be a ton out there.


Both Suhr and Mayones make many non custom production models. Kiesel on the other hand does no production models, not only that but they have more options too. I'm comparing only their custom work when talking about those companies.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Both Suhr and Mayones make many non custom production models. Kiesel on the other hand does no production models, not only that but they have more options too. I'm comparing only their custom work when talking about those companies.



Suhr "production" models and customs are made by the same people in the same shop. 

The Pro models are ordered same as customs, spec'd out by the individual dealer. 

They have enough orders that dealers buy blocks of build slots.

Kiesel is more active on social media, and definitely amongst extended range enthusiasts, but I won't say for sure that they're building more. 

Like I said, it would be cool to see some numbers.


----------



## spudmunkey

Indeed. In one of the first live feeds of the year (1/9/19) Jeff pulled up their 2018 total sales qty and revenue total. 4054 total instruments, $7.5m-ish in total sales. Does Suhr ever publish any totals or estimates?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Indeed. In one of the first live feeds of the year (1/9/19) Jeff pulled up their 2018 total sales qty and revenue total. 4054 total instruments, $7.5m-ish in total sales. Does Suhr ever publish any totals or estimates?



Suhr doesn't seem to publish production numbers. 

I'm going off of what I've seen over the years, including my own orders I've put it. 

There are almost 200 2018 models for sale just on Reverb right now. Then you have almost 200 dealers and importers, who seem to stock anywhere from just a few to dozens of them. 

I doubt that they're ten times the size of Kiesel or anything, but I also doubt they're significantly smaller, if at all.


----------



## PuriPuriPrisoner

Albake21 said:


> Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.



I don't know about that, man. I've own/owned a Mayones, Skervesen, and 4 Kiesels. I would say they were all near the same level quality wise. Hell, my skervy had tool marks on the fretboard and the high e action wouldn't go lower than 1.5 mm.


----------



## The 1

Albake21 said:


> Ehh I definitely can. While everyone is different, some might not see the cost difference worth it, but there is no doubt a Mayones, Aristides, and Skervesen blow Kiesel out of the water with quality. I love Kiesels and their price for quality, but those other brands justify their price way more.





PuriPuriPrisoner said:


> I don't know about that, man. I've own/owned a Mayones, Skervesen, and 4 Kiesels. I would say they were all near the same level quality wise. Hell, my skervy had tool marks on the fretboard and the high e action wouldn't go lower than 1.5 mm.



I had a Skervesen that had sharp frets, one of the worst I've come across even compared to much cheaper guitars. Although that might've been due to fret sprouts. 

I've also come to realize after going through all kinds of high-end guitars, that guitars can only realistically get so good. After a certain threshold, guitars don't necessarily improve with quality. The differences in prices are more attributed to brand prestige and market perception. There are differences in design and features that may appeal to different people so some might find certain guitars worth a higher price to them, but I wouldn't say those high-end boutique brands necessarily blow Kiesel out of the water. Specific examples might, but there are also examples that counter.


----------



## Vyn

The 1 said:


> I had a Skervesen that had sharp frets, one of the worst I've come across even compared to much cheaper guitars. Although that might've been due to fret sprouts.
> 
> I've also come to realize after going through all kinds of high-end guitars, that guitars can only realistically get so good. After a certain threshold, guitars don't necessarily improve with quality. The differences in prices are more attributed to brand prestige and market perception. There are differences in design and features that may appeal to different people so some might find certain guitars worth a higher price to them, but I wouldn't say those high-end boutique brands necessarily blow Kiesel out of the water. Specific examples might, but there are also examples that counter.



^This. More people need to realise this. I think it's part of the reason why so many custom builds end up on reverb almost straight after the owner gets them because they've sunk all this money into their 'dream guitar' only to find out it actually doesn't play that much better than their Prestige-level guitar.


----------



## Hollowway

The 1 said:


> ...guitars can only realistically get so good. After a certain threshold, guitars don't necessarily improve with quality. The differences in prices are more attributed to brand prestige and market perception. There are differences in design and features that may appeal to different people so some might find certain guitars worth a higher price to them, but I wouldn't say those high-end boutique brands necessarily blow Kiesel out of the water. Specific examples might, but there are also examples that counter.



100% agree. There are certain things that are in the “above and beyond” department, like the way the fret ends are done, or Padalka-level wiring. But quality necessarily stops at perfect. Woods may add to the cost, but not nearly as much as some companies (looking at you, Kiesel) would have you believe. Basically, a luthier will charge whatever they can get away with. That’s the “‘market” and WE are the ones driving up the prices. I’m quite sure that Skervesen’s are pricey because they look super cool. And Aristides is priced high because it’s what all the cool kids are getting (and doesn’t look cool ) 
As most of us have said, I think Kiesel guitars are crazy good for their base price. But you really have to be on bath salts to spend $5000 for one. Not because it’s not a good guitar, but precisely because it’s no better that the base model Kiesel. I really don’t care if Jeff touched it, looked at it, chose the wood, or dreamt about it. It’s still built on the same line as the rest of them. 
IMO, if Kiesel were smart (and not to repeat myself too much, but I don’t think Jeff is as good of a businessman as he could be. I think he’s a good hype man, but he’s his own worst enemy in business) they’d release a line that was exclusive to a higher pricing tier. That way, if you wanted it, you’d have to pay extra. Their Kiesel Edition was an attempt at that, but all offered was different options. The actual guitar was the same as the low end models. Basically, they made a Honda Pilot with a special options package. I’m saying they should create an Acura level, and give us a reason to spend a lot on something different. Most other guitar companies do that. 

Of course, I would suggest that the first order of business is to put the customer first, above all else. Put this occasional bad customer service stuff to rest.


----------



## Cynicanal

Hollowway said:


> Their Kiesel Edition was an attempt at that, but all offered was different options. The actual guitar was the same as the low end models. Basically, they made a Honda Pilot with a special options package.


Provided that what you mean is the K-Series, it's a shape you can't get on any of their reasonably priced guitars (it's slightly different than the DC600).


----------



## Hollowway

Cynicanal said:


> Provided that what you mean is the K-Series, it's a shape you can't get on any of their reasonably priced guitars (it's slightly different than the DC600).



Oh really? I didn’t even realize that. Though, I would say if it’s not different enough to make it distinctive to a casual gear nerd, then maybe it’s not different enough. But thanks for pointing that out - I had no idea it’s its own model.


----------



## spudmunkey

It was more noticeable before the DC line revamp, but the K series (launched as the 70th anniversary model, which was 4 years ago) had a unique body that had a vanquish-like bevel around the perimeter, a larger forearm bent contour, and a deeper upper fret access cutaway, and differently-shaped horns. If you look at the K series as a sort of "concept car", it was their halo model that showed hints of features and designs for models of the future. A few years after the K series launch, the DC series was given a couple of it's aspects (the pushed-out horn on the bass-side, and a deeper fret access cutaway on the treble side).

Pink = new DC700
Koa = K7


----------



## bubingaisgod

You may be right spudmunkey, but I don't think what I said qualifies as "bitching". 
Just giving my experiences. I can't argue with the lack of options available in the past. 
You have a much better grasp on the timeline of their pricing than I do.


----------



## MetalHead40

Mike said:


> Did your kesel have that weird issue where the hipshot had all the saddles jacked all the way up to clear the frets properly? I remember seeing this was an issue a while back because of something with the bodycut/neck pocket height or something and that was kiesel's workaround to get the hipshots to work. Never saw if they remedied this. Don't even know why I really care cause I'll never buy a Kiesel anway as I already went through my Carvin phase and was never 100% satisfied with them.




Not sure who you were asking, but that was the exact issue with the one they sent me. Saddles jacked to the fullest extent.


----------



## MetalHead40

RockMixer said:


> I am not sure if I had that exact issue. But I had so many others.
> 
> I think when the company was Carvin, they made better instruments. My bass player has a Carvin Bass which is really quite good in feel and sound. And yes I agree, I will never buy another Kiesel! I would also tell everyone I know to stay away!!




Agreed! I have an older Carvin ST300c and it's a fine instrument. The Aries 6 I had the debacle with was a sad excuse for a guitar and their customer service was as unprofessional as it gets.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> It was more noticeable before the DC line revamp, but the K series (launched as the 70th anniversary model, which was 4 years ago) had a unique body that had a vanquish-like bevel around the perimeter, a larger forearm bent contour, and a deeper upper fret access cutaway, and differently-shaped horns. If you look at the K series as a sort of "concept car", it was their halo model that showed hints of features and designs for models of the future. A few years after the K series launch, the DC series was given a couple of it's aspects (the pushed-out horn on the bass-side, and a deeper fret access cutaway on the treble side).
> 
> Pink = new DC700
> Koa = K7



That's cool to see. I do think the shape of the DC700 is the best it's looked to date. I just tried to spec one for fun. But I saw no floyd option? That's a stupid move on Kiesels part, I'm sure the hipshot trem is nice. But a floyd is something they should always offer! Did they do away with floyds on all models?


----------



## spudmunkey

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I just tried to spec one for fun. But I saw no floyd option? That's a stupid move on Kiesels part, I'm sure the hipshot trem is nice. But a floyd is something they should always offer! Did they do away with floyds on all models?



They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.

At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.
> 
> At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.



It fits along with the push to streamline options and reduce the number of program variations. 

Now they don't need a second neck plot for the locking nut shelf, different neck joint geometry, or body routes.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

spudmunkey said:


> They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.
> 
> At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.


That basically keeps me from wanting to order a dc7000. At this point the only thing I'm considering is a headless. While I'm sure the hipshot is a fine product, but I'm hooked on Floyd's. Have you tried the hipshot compared to a floyd?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> That basically keeps me from wanting to order a dc7000. At this point the only thing I'm considering is a headless. While I'm sure the hipshot is a fine product, but I'm hooked on Floyd's. Have you tried the hipshot compared to a floyd?



Apples to oranges. The Hipshot will be just fine for most trem users, on the condition that the guitar is setup properly for the use it'll recieve, which goes for just about anything. 

But, if you're part of the ~25% of trem users that needs a) the stability of a locking system and b) the greater mass behind the saddles for certain trem "tricks", you'll be better off skipping on Kiesel for something with a Floyd.


----------



## Mike

MetalHead40 said:


> Not sure who you were asking, but that was the exact issue with the one they sent me. Saddles jacked to the fullest extent.


Lol was asking the op from another kiesel problem thread that ended up getting combined into this one thus making me look like I was asking the void


----------



## Hollowway

Mike said:


> asking the void



Adding that to my “cool future band name list.”


----------



## narad

Hollowway said:


> Adding that to my “cool future band name list.”



So you're going metal-core now?


----------



## Andromalia

Hollowway said:


> Adding that to my “cool future band name list.”


Ok, I'm left with "Another Kiesel Problem" then ? Meh.

that saif about guitar value, realistically from what I've played, you get into "good enough for mostly everything" from a lowly Gibson tribute, that's 800ish€.


----------



## Hollowway

narad said:


> So you're going metal-core now?



I’m 100% crab-core, and don’t you forget it! *shakes fist*


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Suhr doesn't seem to publish production numbers.
> 
> I'm going off of what I've seen over the years, including my own orders I've put it.
> 
> There are almost 200 2018 models for sale just on Reverb right now. Then you have almost 200 dealers and importers, who seem to stock anywhere from just a few to dozens of them.
> 
> I doubt that they're ten times the size of Kiesel or anything, but I also doubt they're significantly smaller, if at all.



So let's take Jeff at face value and trust his numbers... and there are 200 on sale on reverb. Percentage-wise the unsatisfied/want something else crowd is not as big as some people might expect.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Apples to oranges. The Hipshot will be just fine for most trem users, on the condition that the guitar is setup properly for the use it'll recieve, which goes for just about anything.
> 
> But, if you're part of the ~25% of trem users that needs a) the stability of a locking system and b) the greater mass behind the saddles for certain trem "tricks", you'll be better off skipping on Kiesel for something with a Floyd.



Like an Ibanez RG550, or maybe one of those Genesis for 2019... Recommend the 2018s more though.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> They've narrowed the selection of models that can get them. Yeah, Floyd's seem like a super huge market...but apparently compared to their other bridges, kiesel felt they didnt sell enough of them to keep them around for all of those models, I assume for efficiencies sake.
> 
> At this point, it's select 6 string models only. No 7s, and not on a number of 6 string models. I think just the Crescent, DC127, DC600, Aries, GH3, JB200C, and JB100, JB24, SCB6, UltraV, V220, and K series.



Didnt Jeff say something to the effect that hardly anyone was buying 7 strings with the floyds, plus the fact that the floyds they were using were the 1000 series for the 7s and not the German ones because of the width of the bridge itself?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> That basically keeps me from wanting to order a dc7000. At this point the only thing I'm considering is a headless. While I'm sure the hipshot is a fine product, but I'm hooked on Floyd's. Have you tried the hipshot compared to a floyd?



Dude, if you get in on the Axe Palace special run, they are doing a limited run of RG752s in RFR with a Lo pro 7.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Cynicanal said:


> Provided that what you mean is the K-Series, it's a shape you can't get on any of their reasonably priced guitars (it's slightly different than the DC600).



Yeah didnt the K series have like slightly more bevels or something?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MetalHead40 said:


> Agreed! I have an older Carvin ST300c and it's a fine instrument. The Aries 6 I had the debacle with was a sad excuse for a guitar and their customer service was as unprofessional as it gets.



JB200 from the carvin era=Best guitar ever made. Nothing will ever change my mind on that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Holy fuck dude. Learn to multi-quote.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holy fuck dude. Learn to multi-quote.



Didnt realize i posted that many times


----------



## Spicypickles

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holy fuck dude. Learn to multi-quote.



This, also, you need to rub one out before hitting the keyboard. You have such an RG550 boner that you have a word climax all over the thread


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holy fuck dude. Learn to multi-quote.



It's Matias' way of keeping "Kiesel -- Never Again!" up in Google search results.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> It's Matias' way of keeping "Kiesel -- Never Again!" up in Google search results.



Actually no, and if you read my comments, i didnt actually attack Jeff at all.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

MatiasTolkki said:


> Dude, if you get in on the Axe Palace special run, they are doing a limited run of RG752s in RFR with a Lo pro 7.


I don't see any information about this on the Facebook closed group or on the website?


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Didnt Jeff say something to the effect that hardly anyone was buying 7 strings with the floyds, plus the fact that the floyds they were using were the 1000 series for the 7s and not the German ones because of the width of the bridge itself?



Yes. For the 7's it seems to have been a combination of factors. Production efficiencies (not wanting to have a separate neck width and body CNC programs for different bridges) lead to them using the Original 1000 series, which is both imported (a reason they stopped selling the Cobalt line), and less consistent quality. Combine that with perhaps slower 7-string floyd sales (or at least not _enough..._and I don't mean overall in the market, just in their own guitar sales), and they decided to get rid of them.

Seemingly quite a few of their decisions lately have been driven by the desire/need to streamline to keep up their production efficiencies. Others, are seemingly purely desire/taste driven. They had the Floyd available on the Vanquish when it launched...but in a video, Jeff just said it wasn't as popular, and thought it just looked oddly large/disproportionate from a design standpoint, and decided they didn't want to offer it.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> Actually no, and if you read my comments, i didnt actually attack Jeff at all.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I don't see any information about this on the Facebook closed group or on the website?



it was in the closed fb page and on the rg lovers page. Brett shared it.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I want in on this rfr run. Any idea when he will go public with it?


----------



## MatiasTolkki

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I want in on this rfr run. Any idea when he will go public with it?



Taking preorders already, i think the deposit is 250 bucks and the total cost is 1500 or something.


----------



## cip 123

MatiasTolkki said:


> JB200 from the carvin era=Best guitar ever made. Nothing will ever change my mind on that.


The JB200 is a horribly designed guitar. I have a Carvin one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatiasTolkki said:


> JB200 from the carvin era=Best guitar ever made. Nothing will ever change my mind on that.





cip 123 said:


> The JB200 is a horribly designed guitar. I have a Carvin one.



It's almost like personal preference and good ol' luck of the draw matters.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> The JB200 is a horribly designed guitar. I have a Carvin one.



No, its a great guitar, and its the best thing carvin has ever made. Screw Jeff's new "Ergonomic" crap.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's almost like personal preference and good ol' luck of the draw matters.



No, it doesn't.


----------



## cip 123

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's almost like personal preference and good ol' luck of the draw matters.


You know I'm just salty over my pot dilemma 



MatiasTolkki said:


> No, its a great guitar, and its the best thing carvin has ever made. Screw Jeff's new "Ergonomic" crap.



14" radius fingerboard. Mine has a 10" radius nut. 

The pickup cavities are not designed to be useful for any other pickups other than the Carvin ones. They're too small to fit most other manufacturers. I've tried. 

The electronics cavity is only designed for Carvin's preamp. If you want to take that out, you'll find you can only use mini pots as the holes are too small for most pots and the holes are also too close to the walls of the cavity for you to fit anything bigger. 

I've talked way too much about this in the other Carvin thread but fat of the matter is.

Great looking guitar? - Yes
Great help to Jason? - Yes
Great designed guitar? - Nope.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

cip 123 said:


> You know I'm just salty over my pot dilemma
> 
> 
> 
> 14" radius fingerboard. Mine has a 10" radius nut.
> 
> The pickup cavities are not designed to be useful for any other pickups other than the Carvin ones. They're too small to fit most other manufacturers. I've tried.
> 
> The electronics cavity is only designed for Carvin's preamp. If you want to take that out, you'll find you can only use mini pots as the holes are too small for most pots and the holes are also too close to the walls of the cavity for you to fit anything bigger.
> 
> I've talked way too much about this in the other Carvin thread but fat of the matter is.
> 
> Great looking guitar? - Yes
> Great help to Jason? - Yes
> Great designed guitar? - Nope.



I like the Carvin pups so I'm not complaining. I still have the stock ones in it.


----------



## Snarpaasi

Found today a great piece of music that fits well this thread:


----------



## 777timesgod

MatiasTolkki said:


> No, its a great guitar, and its the best thing carvin has ever made. Screw Jeff's new "Ergonomic" crap.



I am baffled by the ergonomic thing going on with some guitars. How do you know what body type your customer is going to be and how often they play sitting or standing up, length of arms, etc. A guitar that fits one person like a glove may be a nightmare for another. 
I remember playing Steinbergers in the past (not the mini models) and while they seemed ergonomic they did not fit me at all, I saw a BC Rich Beast and was sure that the shape would poke the life out of me but it fitted greatly.


----------



## diagrammatiks

777timesgod said:


> I am baffled by the ergonomic thing going on with some guitars. How do you know what body type your customer is going to be and how often they play sitting or standing up, length of arms, etc. A guitar that fits one person like a glove may be a nightmare for another.
> I remember playing Steinbergers in the past (not the mini models) and while they seemed ergonomic they did not fit me at all, I saw a BC Rich Beast and was sure that the shape would poke the life out of me but it fitted greatly.




Well it’s ergonomic if you play right and have good posture.


----------



## 777timesgod

diagrammatiks said:


> Well it’s ergonomic if you play right and have good posture.



James Hetfield has just been removed from the proposed endorsers list, as are all the members of Korn.


----------



## spudmunkey

777timesgod said:


> I am baffled by the ergonomic thing going on with some guitars. How do you know what body type your customer is going to be and how often they play sitting or standing up, length of arms, etc. A guitar that fits one person like a glove may be a nightmare for another.



True. But that's up to the customer I guess to know what they want, and select the instrument that's right for them if they have really specific needs. With that said, there are some things that are obvious advantages that would benefit everyone from an ergonomic standpoint: reduced weight is a big one. And as much as people shit on "bevels"...they add a comfort profile where a normal "drop top" doesn't, since that kind of bent forearm contour only ramps down in one direction. On something like Kiesel's Aries, it doesn't matter what angle you hold it at because the way the bevel sort of swoops around the whole side of the body, you won't find your forearm on a sharp angle/corner. I think for the most part, anything beyond those are meant to cater to those who are already trying to play in "proper" playing positions.


----------



## Bearitone

Everyone’s hands are different but, spray bottles, gun grips, ski pole grips, and computer mice basically all come in a few standard shapes that are designed to be ergonomic to the general population. 

You want custom shit that fits you perfectly like a glove? You have to modify or pay a premium for something custom. But, just because it doesn’t fit you perfectly doesn’t mean it’s not ergonomic.


----------



## diagrammatiks

There’s a right way to do things and a wrong way. The wrong way isn’t bad. It’s just wrong. 

You can order a steak completely well done. It’s not necessarily bad for you personally. It’s just wrong.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> You can order a steak completely well done. It’s not necessarily bad for you personally. It’s just wrong.



https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20180321/well-done-meat-not-good-for-your-blood-pressure


----------



## Vyn

MatiasTolkki said:


> Dude, if you get in on the Axe Palace special run, they are doing a limited run of RG752s in RFR with a Lo pro 7.



Need to clarify, this isn't an Axe Palace run, I believe it's one organised through the RG fans page on Facebook (could be wrong but it's definitely not a current Axe Palace run).


----------



## Burtallica

Vyn said:


> Need to clarify, this isn't an Axe Palace run, I believe it's one organised through the RG fans page on Facebook (could be wrong but it's definitely not a current Axe Palace run).



Correct, it's through Killerburst Guitars.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Burtallica said:


> Correct, it's through Killerburst Guitars.



Whatever, they are always posting different runs and i get confused. I dont care about a 7 string, but I thought he'd like to know that there's a 752 RFR run going on. I also tried to double check the run and couldnt find the post on the FB page.


----------



## Hollowway

Not to beat the dead Kiesel horse, but I just saw and exchange on FB that makes me once again question Jeff’s business acuman. There was a guy who bought 4 Kiesels in the past year, and sent his spec sheet to Mike (who was his salesman for all of the purchases) noting that he could not receive calls during the day the sale went live. Mike didn’t respond, so he asked on the FB thread, and Jeff said no emails, no exceptions. The dude told Jeff he couldn’t be on the phone, and figured it would be ok to have Mike help him, and if that’s not the case, he won’t be able to do an order. Then Jeff told him he should leave the group, as there was no point in him being there if he’s not going to order. Jeff said, everyone is treated equally, no matter how many previous orders you have. 
I don’t disagree with the basic idea of what Jeff wants to do with the run, but come on. At least tell the guy that you appreciate him, and you’ll hook him up after the sale. Or tell him that you’ll take a call in the evening, etc. unless you’re a fancy LA club, telling your customers that you don’t value their business is not a smart move. I know Kiesel is doing well, but my make your business lose money by being a dick? It’s not hard to be nice to people.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> Not to beat the dead Kiesel horse, but I just saw and exchange on FB that makes me once again question Jeff’s business acuman. There was a guy who bought 4 Kiesels in the past year, and sent his spec sheet to Mike (who was his salesman for all of the purchases) noting that he could not receive calls during the day the sale went live. Mike didn’t respond, so he asked on the FB thread, and Jeff said no emails, no exceptions. The dude told Jeff he couldn’t be on the phone, and figured it would be ok to have Mike help him, and if that’s not the case, he won’t be able to do an order. Then Jeff told him he should leave the group, as there was no point in him being there if he’s not going to order. Jeff said, everyone is treated equally, no matter how many previous orders you have.
> I don’t disagree with the basic idea of what Jeff wants to do with the run, but come on. At least tell the guy that you appreciate him, and you’ll hook him up after the sale. Or tell him that you’ll take a call in the evening, etc. unless you’re a fancy LA club, telling your customers that you don’t value their business is not a smart move. I know Kiesel is doing well, but my make your business lose money by being a dick? It’s not hard to be nice to people.



Glad I got my jb200 before Jeff took completely over. That's all I have to say.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> It's not veneer. it's a phenolic fiberboard. Similar-ish to how Richlite is described some places.
> 
> note: i'm not defending anything...just explaining what it is.
> 
> On most models, this same option started with a layer of alder or walnut, and then launched with this black layer on the icon bass. They are all considered part of the "3PB" family.
> 
> To be fair, with the body being one-piece, and the top being bookmatched, it's 3 pieces anyway.



I think you misunderstood what i was getting at:

Ibanez, even on their JCs now, tend to have super thin tops on them, ESPECIALLY the cheap garbage out of china and indonesia. Calling that thin layer of goop or whatever the fuck it is a "piece" is bullshit is what I'm saying. 

For around 400,000 yen, i can get a caparison with a REAL two piece body and the flame top is the entire top half of the body, with a mahogany back that is about the same thickness as the top.


----------



## spudmunkey

I would agree that he lacks a certain "way with words". 

In concept, though, I don't disagree with the rule. It's a special event, and nobody is more important than anyone else, and nobody gets special treatment. Prices and processes are set the way they are for them to be able to operate as smoothly as possible. "He is simply too busy to call over the next two days, but has all the time in the world to argue today." was his general comment. "If this specific special run doesn't work for you, then I'm sorry, but we'll sell you a guitar any other day" or something to that effect would have been a much better way to still puff out your chest a bit for anyone witnessing the exchange so they do feel like they are all treated equally, but still not piss off someone who'd likely have bought another couple guitars another time.

My local store had a yearly closed-door sale. It was a big event. You could only get in with an invitation, it started at 4PM, and there were no pre-sales, no holds. They had raffles, and you HAD to be present to win. They newspapered over the windows, and were closed all morning to set up for it. I was there the night before, pleading with them to sell me a 4x12 cab at $100 over what they were going to sell it for during the sale, because I was flying out to a month-long trip to Germany 2 hours before the sale was to start. I was taking lessons there, and bought my last 3 guitars there. The MOMENT my regular sales guy seemed like he was starting to cave, the owner literally jumped between us and said, "No way, man. No exceptions. You have to be here."

And then, my flight got delayed 6 hours, so I went and bought it at the sale price during the sale, but then I'm sure they didn't believe I wasn't lying about leaving, and from that point on, made me feel like shit every week when I went in for my lessons or tried to buy something.


----------



## Jeff

Hollowway said:


> Not to beat the dead Kiesel horse, but I just saw and exchange on FB that makes me once again question Jeff’s business acuman. There was a guy who bought 4 Kiesels in the past year, and sent his spec sheet to Mike (who was his salesman for all of the purchases) noting that he could not receive calls during the day the sale went live. Mike didn’t respond, so he asked on the FB thread, and Jeff said no emails, no exceptions. The dude told Jeff he couldn’t be on the phone, and figured it would be ok to have Mike help him, and if that’s not the case, he won’t be able to do an order. Then Jeff told him he should leave the group, as there was no point in him being there if he’s not going to order. Jeff said, everyone is treated equally, no matter how many previous orders you have.
> I don’t disagree with the basic idea of what Jeff wants to do with the run, but come on. At least tell the guy that you appreciate him, and you’ll hook him up after the sale. Or tell him that you’ll take a call in the evening, etc. unless you’re a fancy LA club, telling your customers that you don’t value their business is not a smart move. I know Kiesel is doing well, but my make your business lose money by being a dick? It’s not hard to be nice to people.



Except that that guy came off as a self-important dick too. Not excusing Jeff's regularly scheduled douchebaggery, but that exchange could have gone better on both ends.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> Calling that thin layer of goop or whatever the fuck it is a "piece" is bullshit is what I'm saying.



I think at this point, it's arguing semantics, IMO. Assuming "piece" has some sort of minimum thickness is a bit nit-picky. Like...at what point is "veneer" thick enough to be a "top"? Or a "cap"? 2mm? 3mm? 5mm?


----------



## spudmunkey

Jeff said:


> Except that that guy came off as a self-important dick too. Not excusing Jeff's regularly scheduled douchebaggery, but that exchange could have gone better on both ends.



Does that exchange still exist, or was it deleted? I missed out, and didn't stumble across it.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> Ibanez, even on their JCs now, tend to have super thin tops on them, ESPECIALLY the cheap garbage out of china and indonesia. *Calling that thin layer of goop or whatever the fuck it is a "piece" is bullshit is what I'm saying*.



So........don't buy it? I don't get why your panties are twisted. Just don't get that option. Or don't buy a Kiesel at all. Clearly Jeff won't care.


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> Does that exchange still exist, or was it deleted? I missed out, and didn't stumble across it.



I don't know, but it's screencapped on TGP.


----------



## spudmunkey

I mean...the "I guess there's no reason to stay in the group" sentence was even ended with a tounge-out smiley face. I'm not sure how else to convey that you mean your comment to be sarcastic, or to be taken silly. 

But, yeah...I hate to use the "both sides" phrase because of the political taint  ...but yeah, both sides could have handled it like adults.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I mean...the "I guess there's no reason to stay in the group" sentence was even ended with a tounge-out smiley face. I'm not sure how else to convey that you mean your comment to be sarcastic, or to be taken silly.
> 
> But, yeah...I hate to use the "both sides" phrase because of the political taint  ...but yeah, both sides could have handled it like adults.


Yeah, no question it’s a “both sides” situation. But, my point is that Jeff should really work on his “customer service” side. There are so many instances of where he could turn a situation into one in which a customer raves about the experience. But so many of them go sideways. 

In the situation with that store you were talking about, same issue. That guy COULD have come up with a bit more of a win-win situation there. So many studies have shown it costs way more to get a new customer than to keep an existing one. If I were Jeff, I’d even do things like five a run to only existing customers. Or do a special option that only existing customers get. 

Not to drag this out any longer than necessary, but it reminds me of when I was growing up, my dad had been a subscriber of Time magazine for maybe 15-20 years. That had one of those promotional subscription things in the magazine. It was for a desk planner of something. My dad called up to get it. They said it’s for new customers only. My dad said he’d sign a new subscription for the next year. They said no, he’s not able to get it at all, because he’s been a customer in the past. He pointed out that he’d been a customer for over a decade. They said sorry, that’s the way it is. So he never subscribed again. He switched to Newsweek and never looked back. What it showed me is that it’s important to reward those who patronize your business because they like it, rather than cater to those who need some sort of a free perk to patronize your business. Yet, so many businesses don’t follow those rules.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, no question it’s a “both sides” situation. But, my point is that Jeff should really work on his “customer service” side. There are so many instances of where he could turn a situation into one in which a customer raves about the experience. But so many of them go sideways.
> 
> In the situation with that store you were talking about, same issue. That guy COULD have come up with a bit more of a win-win situation there. So many studies have shown it costs way more to get a new customer than to keep an existing one. If I were Jeff, I’d even do things like five a run to only existing customers. Or do a special option that only existing customers get.
> 
> Not to drag this out any longer than necessary, but it reminds me of when I was growing up, my dad had been a subscriber of Time magazine for maybe 15-20 years. That had one of those promotional subscription things in the magazine. It was for a desk planner of something. My dad called up to get it. They said it’s for new customers only. My dad said he’d sign a new subscription for the next year. They said no, he’s not able to get it at all, because he’s been a customer in the past. He pointed out that he’d been a customer for over a decade. They said sorry, that’s the way it is. So he never subscribed again. He switched to Newsweek and never looked back. What it showed me is that it’s important to reward those who patronize your business because they like it, rather than cater to those who need some sort of a free perk to patronize your business. Yet, so many businesses don’t follow those rules.



I think this is similar to the way Ibanez has been operating recently as well. They have been trying to get more people into the brand through stuff like the AZ line (and the failure that was the roadcore line, even though they were EXCELLENT guitars) and they came out with the Genesis line to appease long tiem fans... which then became 2 boring ass colors that no one really seems to be buying.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Moved this most recent exchange from the "good Kiesel thread" to the "bad Kiesel thread".


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> I think you misunderstood what i was getting at:
> 
> Ibanez, even on their JCs now, tend to have super thin tops on them, ESPECIALLY the cheap garbage out of china and indonesia. Calling that thin layer of goop or whatever the fuck it is a "piece" is bullshit is what I'm saying.
> 
> For around 400,000 yen, i can get a caparison with a REAL two piece body and the flame top is the entire top half of the body, with a mahogany back that is about the same thickness as the top.



But Ibanez isn't using maple for tone. That slice on a j-custom is just for aesthetics. Caparison has some weirdo ideas about what effects sounds, so I assume the idea of using maple is tone-driven (hence why they have some maple-back guitars when using plain pieces), but that's subjective stuff. You think a j-custom would be better with a 1-inch slab of flame maple on top? I don't.


----------



## noise in my mind

I just got a new dc7x. It has issues. I am dealing with the customer service now. It's been an uphill battle so far...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

noise in my mind said:


> I just got a new dc7x. It has issues. I am dealing with the customer service now. It's been an uphill battle so far...



Have any specifics? Pictures?


----------



## noise in my mind

MaxOfMetal said:


> Have any specifics? Pictures?



There is chipped paint on the end of the headstock. Weird "fret like" dents on the fingerboard. Some buzzing frets. A blonde streak across the ebony when I paid extra for dark. The streak goes across almost the entire fingerboard....lame.


----------



## 777timesgod

Hollowway said:


> Not to drag this out any longer than necessary, but it reminds me of when I was growing up, my dad had been a subscriber of Time magazine for maybe 15-20 years. That had one of those promotional subscription things in the magazine. It was for a desk planner of something. My dad called up to get it. They said it’s for new customers only. My dad said he’d sign a new subscription for the next year. They said no, he’s not able to get it at all, because he’s been a customer in the past. He pointed out that he’d been a customer for over a decade. They said sorry, that’s the way it is. So he never subscribed again. He switched to Newsweek and never looked back. What it showed me is that it’s important to reward those who patronize your business because they like it, rather than cater to those who need some sort of a free perk to patronize your business. Yet, so many businesses don’t follow those rules.



While attending a speech by the head of a marketing department, he told us that they offered something free of charge to new customers, in order to entice them to buy their product. After they got the freebie, they demanded more free stuff to buy again. When you create an expectation of something, you get the baggage too.

I agree with the above, Times basically lost your dad by losing money offering free stuff. They kicked themselves in the ass on the particular occasion as it seems. Of course we do not know if the promotion brought more customer in to compensate though.



noise in my mind said:


> There is chipped paint on the end of the headstock. Weird "fret like" dents on the fingerboard. Some buzzing frets. A blonde streak across the ebony when I paid extra for dark. The streak goes across almost the entire fingerboard....lame.



I have seen the blonde streaks before on a fretboard, any idea by someone here on what causes them?


----------



## mastapimp

777timesgod said:


> I have seen the blonde streaks before on a fretboard, any idea by someone here on what causes them?



Watch this video from Taylor guitars about their use of Ebony. He talks about the streaking in "B grade" wood at about 7:40. You can see some of it in the fretboard of the guitar that's sitting in his lap.


----------



## Chr0nicConsumer

mastapimp said:


> Watch this video from Taylor guitars about their use of Ebony. He talks about the streaking in "B grade" wood at about 7:40. You can see some of it in the fretboard of the guitar that's sitting in his lap.




For anyone who isn't going to watch the video, it's literally only "B-grade" wood because it's not completely black. It's the same trees, same qualities we love. Just the color is different.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Hollowway said:


> Not to drag this out any longer than necessary, but it reminds me of when I was growing up, my dad had been a subscriber of Time magazine for maybe 15-20 years. That had one of those promotional subscription things in the magazine. It was for a desk planner of something. My dad called up to get it. They said it’s for new customers only. My dad said he’d sign a new subscription for the next year. They said no, he’s not able to get it at all, because he’s been a customer in the past. He pointed out that he’d been a customer for over a decade. They said sorry, that’s the way it is. So he never subscribed again. He switched to Newsweek and never looked back. What it showed me is that it’s important to reward those who patronize your business because they like it, rather than cater to those who need some sort of a free perk to patronize your business. Yet, so many businesses don’t follow those rules.



While I am on the side of treating your customers right and emphasis on treating them so they feel appreciated enough to continue their patronage. It's a double edged sword, there's definitely a huge difference in corporate environments and it's hard to get mad at the person on the phone when they're simply following policy. Some companies will have leeway and others will be instructed to follow things by the book as much as possible. So while I get that your dad was frustrated by that, desk planners are dirt cheap and it probably cost less than what the subscription cost him unless it was some well made planner with special materials you couldn't find elsewhere.

But either way some corporations are run with that kind of flexibility, for example my Stingray Bass had a pickup failure and EBMM policy on warranty claims is that shipping costs to EBMM fall on the customer. Return shipping is paid for by EBMM and the repair is obviously covered by them.

I talk to the same guy over there and he's always been awesome with me, out of the 30+ guitars and basses I've had from them I've had to probably get 6 of them fixed in some way or anything. And Billy recognizing this, will usually drop some strings and merch in the case to offset some of the cost of shipping the instrument back to them. Since he can't just cover my shipping he will make it up in other ways. That's a good example of a by the books policy but they still show their appreciation for their customers to keep them around.



noise in my mind said:


> There is chipped paint on the end of the headstock. Weird "fret like" dents on the fingerboard. Some buzzing frets. A blonde streak across the ebony when I paid extra for dark. The streak goes across almost the entire fingerboard....lame.



If things ever go south I can predict the verbiage already, combined with some condescension about you having potentially caused the ding/fretboard mark. That's some bullshit and I hope you get it resolved, but just be firm about what you requested. The damage alone is annoying to deal with.

"You know we usually charge even more to get ebony with that kind of streaking, you're *lucky *to have received it"


----------



## noise in my mind

Jonathan20022 said:


> While I am on the side of treating your customers right and emphasis on treating them so they feel appreciated enough to continue their patronage. It's a double edged sword, there's definitely a huge difference in corporate environments and it's hard to get mad at the person on the phone when they're simply following policy. Some companies will have leeway and others will be instructed to follow things by the book as much as possible. So while I get that your dad was frustrated by that, desk planners are dirt cheap and it probably cost less than what the subscription cost him unless it was some well made planner with special materials you couldn't find elsewhere.
> 
> But either way some corporations are run with that kind of flexibility, for example my Stingray Bass had a pickup failure and EBMM policy on warranty claims is that shipping costs to EBMM fall on the customer. Return shipping is paid for by EBMM and the repair is obviously covered by them.
> 
> I talk to the same guy over there and he's always been awesome with me, out of the 30+ guitars and basses I've had from them I've had to probably get 6 of them fixed in some way or anything. And Billy recognizing this, will usually drop some strings and merch in the case to offset some of the cost of shipping the instrument back to them. Since he can't just cover my shipping he will make it up in other ways. That's a good example of a by the books policy but they still show their appreciation for their customers to keep them around.
> 
> 
> 
> If things ever go south I can predict the verbiage already, combined with some condescension about you having potentially caused the ding/fretboard mark. That's some bullshit and I hope you get it resolved, but just be firm about what you requested. The damage alone is annoying to deal with.
> 
> "You know we usually charge even more to get ebony with that kind of streaking, you're *lucky *to have received it"



Yeah, I am dealing with Joe and he said that blonde streaking is normal for the dark option, WTF!? Right now with all the damage, frets, and streaking they are offering me $100. What do you guys think?


----------



## Jonathan20022

I'm not really sure if that's fair or not, but it totally depends on you if you feel like that's adequate. I'd take that + them taking it back and staining the board black and fixing all the damage if I were in your shoes.


----------



## cip 123

noise in my mind said:


> Yeah, I am dealing with Joe and he said that blonde streaking is normal for the dark option, WTF!? Right now with all the damage, frets, and streaking they are offering me $100. What do you guys think?




Ebony comes in all sorts of colour variation.

Guitarists have been led to believe it's jet black when it isn't for the majority of the time, so the usually costs more. Ebony, is black, brown, streaky, (white in the case of pale moon), and even flamed. 

I would be happy with streaks however not if I specifically paid for Dark. Remember to come at it calmly and you'll never look like the dick. "I understand Ebony comes with lots of variation, I have nothing against that. However I specifically paid to have dark ebony." Don't let them talk you in to "Oh streaks are high grade/people pay for streaks"

I would personally not be happy with $100, if you can get a refund, I'd try for that.


----------



## spudmunkey

The ebony doesn't bother me, and there's not much recourse. The verbiage for the option is "less color variation", and it's always going to be dependant on what they have in stock. It's not "no color variation", and if the batch they have in-stock, dried, and milled ready for production is streakier than usual, you may still end up with some streaking. 

For the paint and fingerboard marks, i've got nothin' for that. $100 seems a bit low.


----------



## noise in my mind

Yeah, I asked for more money, but the guy joe is pulling the whole upper management scheme "I don't set the prices" I am really starting to hate this companies customer service.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Make them do a rebuild. 

Each individual issue isn't absolutely awful, especially compared to some of the past screw ups, but all together, I feel that $100 doesn't really cover it, especially the hassle involved. 

Any custom shop buying from would at least pay to get the guitar back and fix it up. Kiesel doesn't do that/isn't good at it, so a rebuild would be the best option. 

That said, if it's stuff you can live with, ask for a little more cash and run.


----------



## noise in my mind

MaxOfMetal said:


> Make them do a rebuild.
> 
> Each individual issue isn't absolutely awful, especially compared to some of the past screw ups, but all together, I feel that $100 doesn't really cover it, especially the hassle involved.
> 
> Any custom shop buying from would at least pay to get the guitar back and fix it up. Kiesel doesn't do that/isn't good at it, so a rebuild would be the best option.
> 
> That said, if it's stuff you can live with, ask for a little more cash and run.



In all honesty I can live with the guitar. I just want money to get the frets fixed and to make up for the cosmetic errors. Something tells me that I am only going to get $100. This is my last kiesel for sure.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

noise in my mind said:


> In all honesty I can live with the guitar. I just want money to get the frets fixed and to make up for the cosmetic errors. Something tells me that I am only going to get $100. This is my last kiesel for sure.



Get a quote from a local repair person, and send them a copy of the estimate. Meet in the middle. 

Truthfully, that $100 will cover most of it.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> But Ibanez isn't using maple for tone. That slice on a j-custom is just for aesthetics. Caparison has some weirdo ideas about what effects sounds, so I assume the idea of using maple is tone-driven (hence why they have some maple-back guitars when using plain pieces), but that's subjective stuff. You think a j-custom would be better with a 1-inch slab of flame maple on top? I don't.



Oh i know it is, but i still dont agree with a massively expensive JC having a shitty looking flame maple top on it that is paper thin (and i saw some REALLY shitty flame maple tops on those new pink JCs last month when I was in Tokyo), which is my point about this "3 piece body" thing. I wouldnt call that a piece, I'd call it a piece of paper. give me a little more thickness THEN we can call it a 3 piece body.


----------



## noise in my mind

MaxOfMetal said:


> Get a quote from a local repair person, and send them a copy of the estimate. Meet in the middle.
> 
> Truthfully, that $100 will cover most of it.



I found more dents in the fingerboard. At this point I think I am just going to send it back to have them repair all the errors.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

noise in my mind said:


> I found more dents in the fingerboard. At this point I think I am just going to send it back to have them repair all the errors.



Send it back, get a full refund, and tell them to fuck off maybe? dings and shit like that are unacceptable on a new guitar you paid a lot of money for. 

My 100,000 yen RG550RF was absolutely immaculate when i got it in 2017. Kiesel should have the thing shining from being polished for the amount of money they want for their guitars.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Get a full rebuild even a single one of those problems is unacceptable no less all of them combined. $100 didn't really sound insultingly low, but yeah fretwork would run you at a minimum that so the only option in my eyes is to have them fix it in house on their dime since the repair and damage is worth at least double the amount offered.

Does the build have any option 50's? If not you could request a refund with very little resistance IMO, good luck either way.


----------



## V_man

I don`t care about the blonde streak, I honestly think that the vast mayority of the ebony is like that right now. But the weird marks at the fretboard are unacceptable. I would send it back for a full refund and forget kiesel. Every time you play the guitar you will look at the fretboard and picture a mental image of jeff the master of rebuilds laughing at you.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Delos run is closed. 143 guitars sold in two days, apparently (they ship an average of 16-ish per day, for reference/comparison).



You know, they make such a point of telling everyone how many guitars they make, and it looks like business is good, but act like every single return/rebuild/refund will end them at any given time.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> Send it back, get a full refund, and tell them to fuck off maybe? dings and shit like that are unacceptable on a new guitar you paid a lot of money for.
> 
> My 100,000 yen RG550RF was absolutely immaculate when i got it in 2017. Kiesel should have the thing shining from being polished for the amount of money they want for their guitars.



Yeah, I agree. Honestly, you just don't see this kind of thing on an $800 import Schecter or PRS SE. To pay that much for a semi-custom guitar, and have it go out with that shit is 110% unacceptable.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> Yeah, I agree. Honestly, you just don't see this kind of thing on an $800 import Schecter or PRS SE. To pay that much for a semi-custom guitar, and have it go out with that shit is 110% unacceptable.



Exactly. I'm beginning to wonder if Jeff told the guys in finishing or final check to just let shit slide because they have so many orders to fill and the guys are just overworked and miss stuff like this. The problem is that even if Jeff DID tell them that, and they DID let some crap guitars get sent out, they should be doing everything in their power to fix the issues to make a happy customer. 

The biggest problem here is the shitty laws and taxes California keeps passing. Jeff has no choice but to raise prices to cover costs for employees currently there and cant afford to bring in new people due to the size of the operation. This is definitely leading to a LOT of shit guitars getting out that shouldnt be because the current guys are overworked as hell i think.


----------



## noise in my mind

Well, it's been a month since I sent back my new beat up dc7x for repair. I have emailed them several times and no response. I'll probably put a phone call in Monday, and I'll probably be treated like a criminal for asking where my guitar is and why they still have all my money.


----------



## Jeff

noise in my mind said:


> Well, it's been a month since I sent back my new beat up dc7x for repair. I have emailed them several times and no response. I'll probably put a phone call in Monday, and I'll probably be treated like a criminal for asking where my guitar is and why they still have all my money.



Did you charge it? I would just put a stop payment on it, due to fraud.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Looks like the revenge of the dudebro has started.


----------



## noise in my mind

Jeff said:


> Did you charge it? I would just put a stop payment on it, due to fraud.


I paid it through my debit.


----------



## noise in my mind

MatiasTolkki said:


> Looks like the revenge of the dudebro has started.


I assume you are referring to Jeff Kiesel? lol


----------



## MaxOfMetal

noise in my mind said:


> I paid it through my debit.



Your bank should be able to help you out if it comes to that.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

noise in my mind said:


> I assume you are referring to Jeff Kiesel? lol



You learn quickly, my young apprentice


----------



## noise in my mind

Yeah, at this point I wondering if they are just making me a new guitar lol.....ughhhhh...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

noise in my mind said:


> Yeah, at this point I wondering if they are just making me a new guitar lol.....ughhhhh...



Or they are ignoring you because this is what happens to people who have shit happen to them.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Your bank should be able to help you out if it comes to that.



Eh, not always. I got charged 6x over for something that I had used my debit on, and my bank did precisely dick. That’s why I always recommend not using debit. Banks may or may not step up. Credit card companies are more likely to, IME.


----------



## Musiscience

I have GAS for a Vader 6 in Candy Tangerine, but then always think about this thread and find myself not wanting to order. I'm sure they get some great guitars out, but why run the risk of all this drama happening to you when there are a lot of reputable and standup companies out there?


----------



## adrianb

Musiscience said:


> I have GAS for a Vader 6 in Candy Tangerine, but then always think about this thread and find myself not wanting to order. I'm sure they get some great guitars out, but why run the risk of all this drama happening to you when there are a lot of reputable and standup companies out there?



My situation, too. I had actually been exchanging email with one of their sales guys because i was set on buying a Vader, but at one point during our email conversation i asked some questions and he never answered and never got back in touch. I guess i dodged a bullet there.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jeff said:


> Eh, not always. I got charged 6x over for something that I had used my debit on, and my bank did precisely dick. That’s why I always recommend not using debit. Banks may or may not step up. Credit card companies are more likely to, IME.



Every situation is a little different. It really depends on the card. 

I know Visa and Mastercard both have policies about the amount of time banks can sit on issues with a debit card associated with that network. For instance, if you're not getting anywhere with your bank, and the card is a Visa debit, they [Visa] will put pressure on the bank as their agreement stipulates that fraud needs to be resolved within five business days and must meet their standards. I believe Mastercard is 7 days. 

But yeah, credit cards are the way to go if you want the most protection immediately.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Every situation is a little different. It really depends on the card.
> 
> I know Visa and Mastercard both have policies about the amount of time banks can sit on issues with a debit card associated with that network. For instance, if you're not getting anywhere with your bank, and the card is a Visa debit, they [Visa] will put pressure on the bank as their agreement stipulates that fraud needs to be resolved within five business days and must meet their standards. I believe Mastercard is 7 days.
> 
> But yeah, credit cards are the way to go if you want the most protection immediately.



That's why I said "not always". Sometimes they come through, sometimes not. That's why credit cards are safer to use, especially in this type of situation.


----------



## noise in my mind

So I am told now that my guitar is done being fixed and is being shipped out tomorrow. We shall see.......


----------



## Fred the Shred

Hope everything works out for you, man!


----------



## noise in my mind

So the guitar did not ship out. So I am still in the dark at this point. They said they will let me know when it ships out, but who knows when that will happen.


----------



## Seabeast2000

noise in my mind said:


> So the guitar did not ship out. So I am still in the dark at this point. They said they will let me know when it ships out, but who knows when that will happen.


Local pickup only.


----------



## noise in my mind

The906 said:


> Local pickup only.



HA!


----------



## jwguitar

MetalHead40 said:


> So before anyone even says it, yeah I just copied and pasted my post from another forum I'm a member of. Couldn't see re-writing anything different because:
> 
> a) Its what happened.
> b) I wasted enough time on the whole debacle as it is.
> 
> I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to tell my story so people can make informed decisions based on others experiences.
> 
> Sorry, just had to put that out there because I've seen guys get bashed for copying their original post in another forum and putting it up here unchanged.
> 
> So a while back I received my Kiesel A6H build, and despite the fact that it was indeed a stunning guitar aesthetically, regrettably I returned it for a refund. I can honestly say that this was one of the most horrible customer experiences I've encountered, and I'll never even remotely consider another Kiesel product again.
> 
> There were several reasons I finally had enough and asked them to refund me:
> 
> 1) Horrible experience with Mike Jones, my sales guy. This is explained in detail below for those interested in a lengthy read.
> 
> 2) Action problems related to the bridge saddle heights. (Pics of this below)
> 
> 3) Failure by the techs to address my concerns despite a very detailed letter I sent in with the guitar and a promise made by their sales manager.
> 
> 
> Here is the conversation with Mike Jones, my sales guy:
> 
> Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy.
> 
> The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.
> 
> Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):
> 
> Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.
> 
> Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.
> 
> Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.
> 
> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.
> 
> Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.
> 
> 
> So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:
> 
> Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar.
> 
> Here he cuts me off real aggressively:
> 
> Mike: You know your being really rude!
> 
> Me: Excuse me?
> 
> Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me!
> 
> Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?
> 
> Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM.
> 
> Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.
> 
> Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.
> 
> 
> At this point I'm ....ing beyond pissed, and I tell Mike to have a good day and hang up.
> 
> I immediately email the billing person that emailed me several days prior informing me the guitar was complete and explain how Mike Jones just treated me. 15 minutes later Mike Jones calls back and no apology whatsoever tells me the guitars done and its shipping Monday. I thanked him and hung the .... up.
> 
> So that should have been when I told them to keep the guitar and refund me, but unfortunately I didn't.
> 
> Now for the action problem I had that led to me sending the guitar in after speaking with the sales manager and their lead tech.
> 
> I sent the guitar in to have Albert their lead tech look at it after speaking with him on the phone. Talking to him gave me the impression he absolutely just did not care about anything I was saying. Spoke to him the first day and he couldn't think of anything that would cause the issues, so I asked if he could think on it and call me or email me by end of day. He said "yep, absolutely let you know before I leave today". Never heard back. Called him the next day and said "Hi Albert this is Mike, I spoke to yesterday about my Aries 6 issues. He says " Yeah?", and there's just this awkward dead silence. Just came off like he didn't care at all. Like why are you bothering me with this. He told me to just send it in because he still couldn't think what would cause the issues I described.
> 
> Now I sent it back with a VERY detailed letter explaining my issues and asked specifically that they call me after looking at it and before sending it back because if they couldn't get the saddle heights corrected by shimming, or by replacing the .125" bridge with the thicker .175" baseplate version, then I would just want them to keep the guitar and give me a refund.
> 
> The sales manager said they would absolutely call me after looking at it and before sending it back to me because he personally put a note in the tech's work order. It never happened. They ignored my detailed letter and the "supposed" tech notes the sales manager put in the work order because after about a week I called just to see if they had looked at it yet and the same sales manager that promised they'd contact me after it was looked at said "oh, its done and FedEx is picking it up here today and its on its way back to you".
> 
> I asked if he could stop the delivery and he said he couldn't. Which I didn't believe but....maybe that was true, I don't know. I asked what they did to correct the bridge saddle heights and he said they adjusted the truss rod. I told him that I already did this in addition to making all sorts of other adjustments and that's not where the problem was stemming from. He said well, just try it out and we can go from there.
> 
> I knew for a fact that the issue could not be fixed with a truss rod adjustment, so after all the bull.... I had been dealing with I decided to refuse delivery when the FedEx guy came and it went back for a refund.
> 
> Here is how the guitar came brand new from the factory set up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saddles were completely maxed out on the 6th and 5th strings and then almost maxed out on the remaining four. I couldn't get the saddles anywhere near adjusted to match the fretboard radius. It played REALLY bad. Action was horrible. This was set up by them as requested by me in drop C with .012-.054 strings. No way the saddles should have been had to be set at that height, but even a fraction of a mm lower and there was fret buzz all over the fretboard. I thought if they replaced the .125" Hipshot with the .175" taller version that this could have corrected things. Or hell, even if they had shimmed the neck, or both?
> 
> 
> I'll just finish by saying the guitar was absolutely drop dead gorgeous, it came out exactly how I had hoped aesthetically, had no fit to finish flaws that I could find, had a great fundamental tone to it, and I truly wanted to keep it if they could have worked with me. Unfortunately however, the impression I got was they really could not have cared less.



I am really sorry you had to go thru that. I am actually surprised to see that Kiesel made such a poor quality instrument. I have heard in the past their customer service was lacking but I always thought they made excellent guitars. I would have to think twice about purchasing one of their guitars now.


----------



## jwguitar

MetalHead40 said:


> So before anyone even says it, yeah I just copied and pasted my post from another forum I'm a member of. Couldn't see re-writing anything different because:
> 
> a) Its what happened.
> b) I wasted enough time on the whole debacle as it is.
> 
> I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to tell my story so people can make informed decisions based on others experiences.
> 
> Sorry, just had to put that out there because I've seen guys get bashed for copying their original post in another forum and putting it up here unchanged.
> 
> So a while back I received my Kiesel A6H build, and despite the fact that it was indeed a stunning guitar aesthetically, regrettably I returned it for a refund. I can honestly say that this was one of the most horrible customer experiences I've encountered, and I'll never even remotely consider another Kiesel product again.
> 
> There were several reasons I finally had enough and asked them to refund me:
> 
> 1) Horrible experience with Mike Jones, my sales guy. This is explained in detail below for those interested in a lengthy read.
> 
> 2) Action problems related to the bridge saddle heights. (Pics of this below)
> 
> 3) Failure by the techs to address my concerns despite a very detailed letter I sent in with the guitar and a promise made by their sales manager.
> 
> 
> Here is the conversation with Mike Jones, my sales guy:
> 
> Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy.
> 
> The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.
> 
> Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):
> 
> Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.
> 
> Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.
> 
> Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.
> 
> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.
> 
> Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.
> 
> 
> So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:
> 
> Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar.
> 
> Here he cuts me off real aggressively:
> 
> Mike: You know your being really rude!
> 
> Me: Excuse me?
> 
> Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me!
> 
> Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?
> 
> Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM.
> 
> Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.
> 
> Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.
> 
> 
> At this point I'm ....ing beyond pissed, and I tell Mike to have a good day and hang up.
> 
> I immediately email the billing person that emailed me several days prior informing me the guitar was complete and explain how Mike Jones just treated me. 15 minutes later Mike Jones calls back and no apology whatsoever tells me the guitars done and its shipping Monday. I thanked him and hung the .... up.
> 
> So that should have been when I told them to keep the guitar and refund me, but unfortunately I didn't.
> 
> Now for the action problem I had that led to me sending the guitar in after speaking with the sales manager and their lead tech.
> 
> I sent the guitar in to have Albert their lead tech look at it after speaking with him on the phone. Talking to him gave me the impression he absolutely just did not care about anything I was saying. Spoke to him the first day and he couldn't think of anything that would cause the issues, so I asked if he could think on it and call me or email me by end of day. He said "yep, absolutely let you know before I leave today". Never heard back. Called him the next day and said "Hi Albert this is Mike, I spoke to yesterday about my Aries 6 issues. He says " Yeah?", and there's just this awkward dead silence. Just came off like he didn't care at all. Like why are you bothering me with this. He told me to just send it in because he still couldn't think what would cause the issues I described.
> 
> Now I sent it back with a VERY detailed letter explaining my issues and asked specifically that they call me after looking at it and before sending it back because if they couldn't get the saddle heights corrected by shimming, or by replacing the .125" bridge with the thicker .175" baseplate version, then I would just want them to keep the guitar and give me a refund.
> 
> The sales manager said they would absolutely call me after looking at it and before sending it back to me because he personally put a note in the tech's work order. It never happened. They ignored my detailed letter and the "supposed" tech notes the sales manager put in the work order because after about a week I called just to see if they had looked at it yet and the same sales manager that promised they'd contact me after it was looked at said "oh, its done and FedEx is picking it up here today and its on its way back to you".
> 
> I asked if he could stop the delivery and he said he couldn't. Which I didn't believe but....maybe that was true, I don't know. I asked what they did to correct the bridge saddle heights and he said they adjusted the truss rod. I told him that I already did this in addition to making all sorts of other adjustments and that's not where the problem was stemming from. He said well, just try it out and we can go from there.
> 
> I knew for a fact that the issue could not be fixed with a truss rod adjustment, so after all the bull.... I had been dealing with I decided to refuse delivery when the FedEx guy came and it went back for a refund.
> 
> Here is how the guitar came brand new from the factory set up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saddles were completely maxed out on the 6th and 5th strings and then almost maxed out on the remaining four. I couldn't get the saddles anywhere near adjusted to match the fretboard radius. It played REALLY bad. Action was horrible. This was set up by them as requested by me in drop C with .012-.054 strings. No way the saddles should have been had to be set at that height, but even a fraction of a mm lower and there was fret buzz all over the fretboard. I thought if they replaced the .125" Hipshot with the .175" taller version that this could have corrected things. Or hell, even if they had shimmed the neck, or both?
> 
> 
> I'll just finish by saying the guitar was absolutely drop dead gorgeous, it came out exactly how I had hoped aesthetically, had no fit to finish flaws that I could find, had a great fundamental tone to it, and I truly wanted to keep it if they could have worked with me. Unfortunately however, the impression I got was they really could not have cared less.



I am really sorry you had to go thru that. I am actually surprised to see that Kiesel made such a poor quality instrument. I have heard in the past their customer service was lacking but I always thought they made excellent guitars. I would have to think twice about purchasing one of their guitars now.


----------



## noise in my mind

Ok so I got my guitar back today after over a month of waiting. Still has the paint chip on the end of the headstock and still has blonde streaking on the fingerboard (when I paid extra for the dark option). Some of the frets still buzz, but they are better than before. The marks on the fingerboard they filled are less noticeable, but you can still see them. I emailed them photos. We will see what they say.....


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The board looks a little dry. Try lemon oil and it will darken it a lot.


----------



## noise in my mind

Ok, So I just got an email back from Kiesel and they told me basically to fuck off. Fuck this company.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Everything we've seen thus far has pointed to returning the guitar for a full refund is preferable to letting the hacks over there "fix" anything. 

There is absolutely no way they were going to actually fix any of those issues. Too much work for a shop setup for line production and not actual luthiers/repair techs.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Push for a return and never look back, you should have pushed for a rebuild since fixing those issues like Max pointed out is a little impossible. Expecting a fix in this way is a pretty sure fire way to get the shit end of the stick unfortunately. What did their email tell you? I doubt they told you to literally fuck off, but I'd be interested in the verbiage.


----------



## noise in my mind

Here is the email response:
"The headstock was repaired; the tip must be rubbing against the inside of the case which could be what is contributing to this issue. Ebony wood is naturally streaky in nature and is not all black. Ebony fretboards must either be dyed or painted black in order to have a uniform solid black color. The option code of EFB on your invoice denotes a less color variant option, which is why there are streaks in the ebony. This is actually correct according to the order and the nature of the option itself. "


----------



## Hollowway

Musiscience said:


> I have GAS for a Vader 6 in Candy Tangerine, but then always think about this thread and find myself not wanting to order. I'm sure they get some great guitars out, but why run the risk of all this drama happening to you when there are a lot of reputable and standup companies out there?



Yeah, I actually really like Kiesel instruments, but am scared about buying one as a custom. I've had one bad experience with them, and a few good ones prior to the name change, etc. But these days, I'm only buying them used. At least that way I can see them first, and dispute anything through paypal.


----------



## noise in my mind

Jonathan20022 said:


> Push for a return and never look back, you should have pushed for a rebuild since fixing those issues like Max pointed out is a little impossible. Expecting a fix in this way is a pretty sure fire way to get the shit end of the stick unfortunately. What did their email tell you? I doubt they told you to literally fuck off, but I'd be interested in the verbiage.



I asked for these things and all they offered was $100 off or for me to return the guitar to be fixed. They said a rebuild was not needed. At least the guitar sounds and plays pretty well, but cosmetically it's B stock grade, not new. In all honesty, my old agile spetor pro was in better shape when it arrived.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

noise in my mind said:


> I asked for these things and all they offered was $100 off or for me to return the guitar to be fixed. They said a rebuild was not needed. At least the guitar sounds and plays pretty well, but cosmetically it's B stock grade, not new. In all honesty, my old agile spetor pro was in better shape when it arrived.



Why no "10 day return guarantee"?


----------



## noise in my mind

MaxOfMetal said:


> Why no "10 day return guarantee"?



I wanted the guitar. I like this guitar. I figured they could fix the issues. I gambled and lost.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

noise in my mind said:


> I wanted the guitar. I like this guitar. I figured they could fix the issues. I gambled and lost.



Happens to the best of us.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Never go for the fix option. 

It’s wood guys. Fixing this stuff isn’t like fixing a bike. 

It’s filled and finished over. It’s never really fixed.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Shame to hear about that, really.


----------



## laxu

noise in my mind said:


> Ok so I got my guitar back today after over a month of waiting. Still has the paint chip on the end of the headstock and still has blonde streaking on the fingerboard (when I paid extra for the dark option). Some of the frets still buzz, but they are better than before. The marks on the fingerboard they filled are less noticeable, but you can still see them. I emailed them photos. We will see what they say.....



The pictures are out of focus so hard to tell much with them but to me these seem like such inconsequential issues that I would not care if the guitar is otherwise good. They did say that the fretboard was also according to the selected option. Maybe there was miscommunication about what happened but that's why I've recommended emailing Kiesel instead of ordering through the website so you can ask questions and make sure you are on the same page on what you are getting.

I had some dye under the nut on my Kiesel AM7 and a few side dots a bit off center and got a small refund (I asked for beer money, I got a lot more) and was happy with that. The guitar is one of my best playing ones and I love it. It's not like I notice the small visual flaws when one is almost never visible and the other is not something I consider when playing.

While it sucks that these things happen, at the end of the day you are getting a Kiesel at 1) lower price than a similarly specced custom guitar from most other companies and 2) much faster. I waited I think 4 months for the Kiesel whereas my Skervesen took 12 months to build.


----------



## efiltsohg

Yeah as trendy as it is to shit on Kiesel, they aren't to blame for you thinking ebony is solid black wood


----------



## spudmunkey

noise in my mind said:


> Here is the email response:
> "The headstock was repaired; the tip must be rubbing against the inside of the case which could be what is contributing to this issue.



I'm kinda on the manufacturer's side on the ebony (they USED to call the upgrade 'streak free', but they couldn't meet that expectation, so they changed it a couple years ago)...but this line above is stupid.

"The case we provided must be damaging your guitar. Yep. *twiddles thumbs* That must be it."

It reminds me of the time I was at a Chili's, and we found blue plastic in the beef. "Oh, the blue must be something that got into the beef...." and then she just looked at us with a blank stare, like she was done. The blue in the meat must have been something blue that got into the meat. That was the response she thought was satiafactory. "....and? Is that all you have to say about it?"  (to be clear, I could see the kitchen griddle from our booth and had an idea of what it was...the meat patties were on a tray covered in plastic with blue priting on it, and I bet the plastic hit the grill and a piece stuck to the grill, shrivled and got stuck to a burger. i've had something similar when dumping meat out of a grocery store package into a hot pan...but still...)


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> I'm kinda on the manufacturer's side on the ebony (they USED to call the upgrade 'streak free', but they couldn't meet that expectation, so they changed it a couple years ago)...but this line above is stupid.
> 
> "The case we provided must be damaging your guitar. Yep. *twiddles thumbs* That must be it."



Yeah I agree with this. While I feel like they probably just grab whatever and didn't pay attention to the "less streaking" request, wood is wood and I guess nothing is guaranteed. But the damage thing (although hard to see from the pics) really isn't acceptable. You're gonna ding it up eventually yourself, but giving it to you like that new just doesn't cut it—and the excuse is beyond stupid.


----------



## noise in my mind

efiltsohg said:


> Yeah as trendy as it is to shit on Kiesel, they aren't to blame for you thinking ebony is solid black wood



Actually that is the definition of A grade ebony and that's what I paid for. This one is B Grade and has massive blonde streaks across the entire fingerboard.


----------



## noise in my mind

spudmunkey said:


> I'm kinda on the manufacturer's side on the ebony (they USED to call the upgrade 'streak free', but they couldn't meet that expectation, so they changed it a couple years ago)...but this line above is stupid.
> 
> "The case we provided must be damaging your guitar. Yep. *twiddles thumbs* That must be it."
> 
> It reminds me of the time I was at a Chili's, and we found blue plastic in the beef. "Oh, the blue must be something that got into the beef...." and then she just looked at us with a blank stare, like she was done. The blue in the meat must have been something blue that got into the meat. That was the response she thought was satiafactory. "....and? Is that all you have to say about it?"  (to be clear, I could see the kitchen griddle from our booth and had an idea of what it was...the meat patties were on a tray covered in plastic with blue priting on it, and I bet the plastic hit the grill and a piece stuck to the grill, shrivled and got stuck to a burger. i've had something similar when dumping meat out of a grocery store package into a hot pan...but still...)



Yeah, good analogy. It's really ridiculous that their own case can't protect a guitar two times in a row. They refuse to give me any money back for the damage.


----------



## Albake21

Can you take a picture of the whole fretboard? You keep saying there's big streaks but it's hard to tell when you are taking the pictures so close. Also you're incorrect about Grade A ebony. Grade A does indeed have streaks in it.


----------



## noise in my mind

laxu said:


> The pictures are out of focus so hard to tell much with them but to me these seem like such inconsequential issues that I would not care if the guitar is otherwise good. They did say that the fretboard was also according to the selected option. Maybe there was miscommunication about what happened but that's why I've recommended emailing Kiesel instead of ordering through the website so you can ask questions and make sure you are on the same page on what you are getting.
> 
> I had some dye under the nut on my Kiesel AM7 and a few side dots a bit off center and got a small refund (I asked for beer money, I got a lot more) and was happy with that. The guitar is one of my best playing ones and I love it. It's not like I notice the small visual flaws when one is almost never visible and the other is not something I consider when playing.
> 
> While it sucks that these things happen, at the end of the day you are getting a Kiesel at 1) lower price than a similarly specced custom guitar from most other companies and 2) much faster. I waited I think 4 months for the Kiesel whereas my Skervesen took 12 months to build.



I disagree, when I buy a new guitar I expect a new guitar and especially at this price range. I don't expect to get dented B stock. Like I stated earlier my $500 Agile came in better shape.


----------



## noise in my mind

Albake21 said:


> Can you take a picture of the whole fretboard? You keep saying there's big streaks but it's hard to tell when you are taking the pictures so close. Also you're incorrect about Grade A ebony. Grade A does indeed have streaks in it.


not according taylor (7:40-8:00)


----------



## Albake21

noise in my mind said:


> not according taylor (7:40-8:00)



He's talking about Grade A in general. Meaning Grade A/A+, AA, and AAA. All three are black ebony but Grade A has streaks in it. Here's a good source on it explaining the differences.

https://www.exoticwood.biz/ebony.htm


----------



## noise in my mind

Albake21 said:


> He's talking about Grade A in general. Meaning Grade A/A+, AA, and AAA. All three are black ebony but Grade A has streaks in it. Here's a good source on it explaining the differences.
> 
> https://www.exoticwood.biz/ebony.htm


Ah, thanks for the correction. I am not familiar with wood grades, I just assumed that the extra money I paid would get me the best ebony. Jeff Kiesel always brags about how they handpick the best wood etc.


----------



## spudmunkey

Wood grading is mostly arbitrary. You can use it to compare woods from the same suppliers, but it's not really meant to compare one company's AAA to another. Until you get to plywood, where there's a bit more industry-wide standards when it comes to patched and sanded veneers, but still no official grading body, or anything like that.


----------



## Albake21

Just want to add, Kiesel just posted on their Instagram that base prices for every model will be increasing starting July 1st..... yeah fuck it I'm done with this company. Once my AM7 is done, no more. I swear they increase their prices every other month. I'd rather pay slightly more for a much nicer custom at these prices.



noise in my mind said:


> Jeff Kiesel always brags about how they handpick the best wood etc.


That's Jeff Kiesel in a nutshell sadly.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Albake21 said:


> Just want to add, Kiesel just posted on their Instagram that base prices for every model will be increasing starting July 1st..... yeah fuck it I'm done with this company. Once my AM7 is done, no more. I swear they increase their prices every other month. I'd rather pay slightly more for a much nicer custom at these prices.



The "hurry up and put an order in before prices increase" has been a primary sales driver for them for awhile now.

Chances are this new price increase is going to be minimal, and even if it's a couple hundred dollars, Kiesel are still a solid deal unless you choose stupid, entirely aesthetic, options.


----------



## Albake21

MaxOfMetal said:


> The "hurry up and put an order in before prices increase" has been a primary sales driver for them for awhile now.
> 
> Chances are this new price increase is going to be minimal, and even if it's a couple hundred dollars, Kiesel are still a solid deal unless you choose stupid, entirely aesthetic, options.


See here's the problem though and I'm one to part of it too. Every single time for the past two years we all say "oh it will be minimal" but those add up. They have added up too much to make it worth it (to me at least). It's harder to keep things minimal specs-wise to keep the price down unless you keep everything stock. As someone who has been supportive of this company for a few years now, I'm no longer when it comes to new Kiesels. Yes, for cheap customs they are still #1, but as for quality/price there are better options now a days.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Dude, their price increases are actually pretty goddamn significant. 

All of the them individually may not seem like much, but when you add $50-200 to every single upgrade and there's like 20 possible upgrades...that's going to be significant. 

Osiris that I got right before their latest price increase was $1350, and when I was speccing out another one a few weeks ago with almost the exact same specs it was around $1600. That's pretty significant, especially if they're about to increase it again.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> The "hurry up and put an order in before prices increase" has been a primary sales driver for them for awhile now.



The thing is, when they used to raise prices, you wouldn't know it until a catalog arrived with new prices. And by then, they'd already have been in place for a little while because pricing was invalid after certain dates mentioned in the catalogs. I fail to see an issue with mentioning that prices are going up ahead of time. Is the issue simply with adding, "...so order now before prices go up"? Hardly seems worth being upset about (as a separate issue from the price increase, itself).

Same thing with models being discontinued. They basically read off a list of models that are no longer being carried going forward, and then still allow for a window to order them (just without the trial period). Again, before, you wouldn't know if a model was discontinued until it happened, and you might not be able to get it anyway. Heck, models disappeared from the catalog because they only paid for a certain number of catalog pages, and people thought they were already discontinued anyway.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lord Voldemort said:


> Dude, their price increases are actually pretty goddamn significant.
> 
> All of the them individually may not seem like much, but when you add $50-200 to every single upgrade and there's like 20 possible upgrades...that's going to be significant.
> 
> Osiris that I got right before their latest price increase was $1350, and when I was speccing out another one a few weeks ago with almost the exact same specs it was around $1600. That's pretty significant, especially if they're about to increase it again.



That $1600 is still a great deal.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

MaxOfMetal said:


> That $1600 is still a great deal.



No arguments here, you know I'm the biggest Kiesel fanboy around. Just saying, the price increase while being fairly modest can be pretty significant if you're still dreaming of those Carvin $900-1200 days.


----------



## PatientMental76

Just from reading this forum everyone should steer clear of this company


----------



## stevexc

PatientMental76 said:


> Just from reading this forum everyone should steer clear of this company



Keep in mind you are hearing from the same few people most of the time.

Hell, MatiasTolkki has probably half the posts in this thread.

Like Max has said, keep your build simple, don't make any requests above and beyond the options presented, and chances pretty damn good are you'll be fine.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lord Voldemort said:


> No arguments here, you know I'm the biggest Kiesel fanboy around. Just saying, the price increase while being fairly modest can be pretty significant if you're still dreaming of those Carvin $900-1200 days.



The increases aren't nothing, but I don't think they're really significant enough to push 99% of them away from someone who was seriously interested in buying anyway, especially on something really niche like headless guitars. 

What's preferable? A $2200 Indo Strandberg? A $1800 Korean Ormsby that might take years for delivery? One of the few smaller import lines like Neko? 

We've been accustomed to great pricing on Carvin/Kiesel stuff, and we've mostly taken it for granted. They seem to be correcting their pricing to the market, which is natural.


----------



## Seabeast2000

stevexc said:


> Keep in mind you are hearing from the same few people most of the time.
> 
> Hell, MatiasTolkki has probably half the posts in this thread.
> 
> Like Max has said, keep your build simple, don't make any requests above and beyond the options presented, and chances pretty damn good are you'll be fine.



Do you guys think the GIS (basic->ornate) is a pretty solid bet for highly-consistent quality?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

PatientMental76 said:


> Just from reading this forum everyone should steer clear of this company



That's a pretty unfair assessment. 

I've been a staunch critic of Kiesel, but I would never give a blanket "steer clear" on them. 

Just order smart and deal with any issues that come up immediately and to the fullest extent.



The906 said:


> Do you guys think the GIS (basic->ornate) is a pretty solid bet for highly-consistent quality?



Too many returned/b-stock stuff goes in GIS, not to mention the minimal discount. 

Reverb would be a better bet if you want something ready-made.


----------



## CGrant109

I've had 3 different builds with Kiesel over the last 3 years, and I've never had an issue, aside from one of their CS reps fumbling around on confirming my shipping address. I wouldn't say steer clear from this company, they are offering great guitars at competitive pricing. You'll always come across a few issues on builds every so often, it's just going to happen. I don't agree with how some of the situations have been handled, but I would argue going into the build with knowing exactly what you're ordering will make things a lot smoother (this isn't applicable to the most recent issue being discussed, although my recent build I made also had the "less color differentiation" and it's completely black ebony for a fretboard)


----------



## MetalHex

CGrant109 said:


> I don't agree with how some of the situations have been handled,



This is why I would never do business with them.


----------



## Matt08642

MetalHex said:


> This is why I would never do business with them.



Yeah I could never do business with a company that might ship me a guitar they designed in a case they designed and then tried telling me the paint chips are from the case, then refuse to fix it lmao


----------



## MetalHex

Matt08642 said:


> Yeah I could never do business with a company that might ship me a guitar they designed in a case they designed and then tried telling me the paint chips are from the case, then refuse to fix it lmao


That doesnt constitute a lemon. Ive heard plenty of lemon cases in this thread alone


----------



## Matt08642

MetalHex said:


> That doesnt constitute a lemon. Ive heard plenty of lemon cases in this thread alone



I'm saying if Kiesel can't even get that story straight, I'd not trust their builds either.


----------



## Jeff

It’s not that Kiesel ships a couple stinkers here and there. It’s that they tend to handle them quite poorly.


----------



## Hollowway

But the $100 off options is for a limited time, though, so don't wait too long. I may stop at any decade.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> But the $100 off options is for a limited time, though, so don't wait too long. I may stop at any decade.



I actually do remember when that promo started, but it's the "50% off options" promo that I *think* may have arrived on the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I actually do remember when that promo started, but it's the "50% off options" promo that I *think* may have arrived on the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs.



 Well, either way, I'm certainly not complaining. I'll take whatever savings I can get!


----------



## Jonathan20022

Is it really savings if the price increases have eclipsed the promotion that's been offered for the beginning of time?

It's like the Fallout 76 emote bundle scandal, half off! But it was never the higher cost in the first place


----------



## spudmunkey

A promotion is easier to end (and can be more under the radar) than it is to have to actually change prices.


----------



## Albake21

Jonathan20022 said:


> Is it really savings if the price increases have eclipsed the promotion that's been offered for the beginning of time?
> 
> It's like the Fallout 76 emote bundle scandal, half off! But it was never the higher cost in the first place


That's exactly what's going on. It's not a real promotion like many think. It was the same thing as when I worked in retail. The "sale" prices were the normal every day prices while the "door busters" were actual sale prices. On black friday it was even worse. They raised the prices of products to the "normal" price and made the black friday prices just the "door busters" price. In other words, nothing changed and the prices were the same on week days and on weekends when "door busters" were a thing. It's just marketing.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hopefully not to derail the entire conversation, but i find it to bizarre that some stores have "black friday in July" sales, "black friday week" sales, and even all-weekend-long, all-day "door busters".


----------



## nosferum

Well I was all ready to order me a Kiesel DC600 and it would be my first Kiesel but some of these posts now have me a bit nervous. My budget is no more than $2400 and I specced out what I think would be a great guitar but I have never played a Kiesel so I don't know how well they are made or play. What other brands could they be compared to? Im looking for a guitar to play Metal. I've been considering Solar, ESP E-II line and Ibanez but the Kiesels seemed like a great deal compared to some of those other brands I'm looking at. A lot of bang for the buck it seems. SS frets and a custom build are big pluses in going the Kiesel direction. I'll do some more research before I make my final decision.


----------



## MSS

nosferum said:


> Well I was all ready to order me a Kiesel DC600 and it would be my first Kiesel but some of these posts now have me a bit nervous. My budget is no more than $2400 and I specced out what I think would be a great guitar but I have never played a Kiesel so I don't know how well they are made or play. What other brands could they be compared to? Im looking for a guitar to play Metal. I've been considering Solar, ESP E-II line and Ibanez but the Kiesels seemed like a great deal compared to some of those other brands I'm looking at. A lot of bang for the buck it seems. SS frets and a custom build are big pluses in going the Kiesel direction. I'll do some more research before I make my final decision.



You can get a Mayones Duvell 7 standard for under $2400 usd. They are harder to find but around.


----------



## spudmunkey

nosferum said:


> Well I was all ready to order me a Kiesel DC600 and it would be my first Kiesel but some of these posts now have me a bit nervous. My budget is no more than $2400 and I specced out what I think would be a great guitar but I have never played a Kiesel so I don't know how well they are made or play. What other brands could they be compared to? Im looking for a guitar to play Metal. I've been considering Solar, ESP E-II line and Ibanez but the Kiesels seemed like a great deal compared to some of those other brands I'm looking at. A lot of bang for the buck it seems. SS frets and a custom build are big pluses in going the Kiesel direction. I'll do some more research before I make my final decision.



I personally haven't owned guitars that felt similar (all of the guitars I've owned have felt different, i think), but the three I see mentioned most often are some USA Jason necks, some of the more slim Schecter necks, and PRS Pattern Regular necks. Note that Kiesel offers a couple neck thickness options and also fretboard radius and fret size options, which can all impact feel. For example, All of the fretboards will be the same thickness in the middle, so if you get a smaller 10" radius, the fretboard will be thinner at the edges than if it were a 20" radius. Take a 20" radius and throw on Jumbo frets and a multi-coat/layer paint job, and the same "neck" can feel quite different to a tung-oiled 10" radius with "regular" or "vintage" frets even if you stuck with the same neck thickness option.

What I would say is that their standard neck is meant to be a middle-of-the-road neck, sort of one-size-fits most, that's comfortable the the largest audience. Not thick, not too thin. If you know that you want the thinnest they can offer, then get their thin option...it only shaves off .03" though, so it's still not "Wizard" thin. If you want a thicker neck, that would add .03" (so again, not a huge difference) and I believe it's an option that voids the 10-day trial. They might be able to "stack" two of those thick options, too, for an additional .06" over the standard, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Two options that they DON'T have: nut width/string spacing options, or compound radius.

Your best bet would be to stick to options that retain the 10-day trial period, for at least your first. Note: Just because it's not on the builder online, that doesn't mean something is non-returnable (and vise versa, in some cases). Definitely recommend calling (because there are some things the builder lets you do that are conflicting or add cost unnecessarily, or they may suggest something you haven't thought of), and then getting your build sent to you for review before placing the order (once it's placed: no changes).


----------



## crankyrayhanky

MSS said:


> You can get a Mayones Duvell 7 standard for under $2400 usd. They are harder to find but around.


That's a good choice but apples and oranges (new vs used). You could likely get a decent used Kiesel for closer to 1k .



spudmunkey said:


> Two options that they DON'T have: nut width/string spacing options, or compound radius.
> .


Yes, this is a bummer. I would love compound radius and an asymmetrical neck. I may order another Aries soon anyway.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Albake21 said:


> That's exactly what's going on. It's not a real promotion like many think. It was the same thing as when I worked in retail. The "sale" prices were the normal every day prices while the "door busters" were actual sale prices. On black friday it was even worse. They raised the prices of products to the "normal" price and made the black friday prices just the "door busters" price. In other words, nothing changed and the prices were the same on week days and on weekends when "door busters" were a thing. It's just marketing.



Yep Black Friday is a complete joke, sometimes you can find good deals online. But literally any extension that monitors price history will tell you if what you're buying is truly a deal or not 

Reddit has been more reliable for me to find something on sale throughout the years, I just follow subs that have deals for products I'm interested in and the people there will do all the work for me.


----------



## budda

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yep Black Friday is a complete joke, sometimes you can find good deals online. But literally any extension that monitors price history will tell you if what you're buying is truly a deal or not
> 
> Reddit has been more reliable for me to find something on sale throughout the years, I just follow subs that have deals for products I'm interested in and the people there will do all the work for me.



What extensions are these?


----------



## nosferum

Thanks for the great info. I also wanted to ask, Is there going to be a Kiesel price increase coming soon? If so when does it go in effect? I better make my mind up soon! The pressure is on. Ive been watching a lot of youtube clips of Kiesel guitars and they look and sound great to me. I'm guessing that they are pretty great guitars and I would be very happy with one.


----------



## DudeManBrother

nosferum said:


> Well I was all ready to order me a Kiesel DC600 and it would be my first Kiesel but some of these posts now have me a bit nervous. My budget is no more than $2400 and I specced out what I think would be a great guitar but I have never played a Kiesel so I don't know how well they are made or play. What other brands could they be compared to? Im looking for a guitar to play Metal. I've been considering Solar, ESP E-II line and Ibanez but the Kiesels seemed like a great deal compared to some of those other brands I'm looking at. A lot of bang for the buck it seems. SS frets and a custom build are big pluses in going the Kiesel direction. I'll do some more research before I make my final decision.


This thread should be a reminder as to why you order something that maintains the 10 day return policy. Of the 15 or so I’ve had in my hands, I have yet to play a bad Carvin/Kiesel. A few have needed setups, but that’s typical of instruments in every price range. Some didn’t do it for me aesthetically, but all of them have been great playing instruments. My Aries shipped with bridge saddles in the wrong spot, like it was for a lefty; and the neck pickup installed upside down, but that was easy to remedy. It’s one of my favorite playing guitars. The chances of you receiving a great guitar are much higher than receiving a lemon. Just make sure you have your 10 day in case...


----------



## spudmunkey

nosferum said:


> Thanks for the great info. I also wanted to ask, Is there going to be a Kiesel price increase coming soon? If so when does it go in effect? I better make my mind up soon! The pressure is on. I've been watching a lot of youtube clips of Kiesel guitars and they look and sound great to me. I'm guessing that they are pretty great guitars and I would be very happy with one.



Yes, July 1st. They have small ones every 6mo or so. In the past, they have been about $50 to $100. Sometimes specific options also go up a little. I don't believe there's been more concrete data yet. There likely won't be until it happens, unless Jeff just decides to go off the cuff and starts listing them in one of his live Q&A videos.

People shit on their "frequent" price increases...but for reference, last March, Music Man raised prices on many models by $300-600 depending on the model,and there was about 10-12% in 2013. So kiesel does them more often, but are normally smaller...and up until the last couple, they came with upgrades. One $50 increase brought standard luminlay side dots. One $50 brought standard stainless frets. They started rolling in the carbon fiber neck reinforcement rods between price changes. They haven't added any standard upgrades the last couple price changes, though.

While I'm a fan of their guitars (I have 3, and planning on at least 2 more), and keeping up with them is a little hobby of mine...this is a "never again" thread, so you know that there have been some people with issues. Some with quality, some with customer service. They do make 4,000+ guitars in a year though, so even if 99.9% of customers are happy, that's still 4 pissed off folks.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> Some with quality, some with customer service. They do make 4,000+ guitars in a year though, so even if 99.9% of customers are happy, that's still 4 pissed off folks.



Kiesel: makes 4,000 guitars a year.

Also Kiesel: 
~Aww man guys, Jeff here (Kiesel Guitars, Carvin Guitars, 1-800-KieselGuitars), feeling really bummed. Our warehouse was totally robbed last night...had a dozen guitars stolen... Maaan, you know...if you've been thinking about putting in an order... it would really help us out right now....that number again is 1-800-KieselGuitars....super bummed right now...


----------



## spudmunkey

It was 16, and international order credit card fraud.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> It was 16, and international order credit card fraud.



That extra tenth of one percent net really matters.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> It was 16, and international order credit card fraud.



The fact that it was international order credit card fraud and was generally presented as some sort of direct theft is also part of the point I'm making.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I think the price increase is a minor thing. Still shoulda bought a vader before I left the states.

Although, it's funny to think that it's more annoying the way they do a little bit at a time.

Suhr, Anderson, and PRS have all had massive price increases in the last few years. People complain but then it dies down. I know andersons are like almost 1000 dollars more for the same specs to what I first got.


----------



## budda

Everyone has price increases, it's called inflation. Some brands probably increase more than others.

As you were.


----------



## jephjacques

narad said:


> The fact that it was international order credit card fraud and was generally presented as some sort of direct theft is also part of the point I'm making.



Man I get that Jeff is a dink but I'd try to spin that into getting some more orders too if I were in his position. My merch company spends a ridiculous amount of time and effort fighting scammers like this, it fuckin sucks.


----------



## Hollowway

Jonathan20022 said:


> Is it really savings if the price increases have eclipsed the promotion that's been offered for the beginning of time?
> 
> It's like the Fallout 76 emote bundle scandal, half off! But it was never the higher cost in the first place



I can't remember if it's a California thing, or US thing, but I think it's illegal to advertise something as being on sale if it never was the original price.

EDIT: I act like I'm not literally on the internet. So, I looked it up, and it is, in fact, a federal law against false advertising. For a sale to not be false advertising, the original price must be in force for a substantial amount of time, and relatively recently (most saying within 3 months) for the sale price to be considered legitimate, and not false advertising. Furthermore, the actual price cannot be an inflated price, only to allow for a reasonable sale price to be created. AND the business has to be able to show that a decent number of people were buying the product at the non-sale price before the sale was instituted.


----------



## Hollowway

jephjacques said:


> Man I get that Jeff is a dink but I'd try to spin that into getting some more orders too if I were in his position. My merch company spends a ridiculous amount of time and effort fighting scammers like this, it fuckin sucks.



I think most of us were pissed that they said they were robbed. In fact, it was fraud. Jeff said, "We were robbed. Someone made off with 16 guitars." If he reported it to the police like that, he'd either be laughed at, or given a pretty stern talking to about filing a false report. He pretty much had us all convinced it was a hold up, and people took guitars out of the warehouse/showroom. You can't get "robbed" by CC fraud. There's no threat, and no weapon involved. I think he chose the wording to garner more sympathy. Saying, "we got scammed in an online sale" doesn't sound as juicy as, "we were robbed, and someone made off with 16 guitars." I haven't been robbed, but I know people who have, and it's way more traumatic than credit card / bank fraud. Even if the amount is the same. I really felt bad for the Kiesel guys when it happened, and then I was super pissed when I found out that they was no robbery, and not even a burglary.


----------



## adrianb

It appears the general consensus over getting a Kiesel without any workmanship flaws is to avoid exotic woods and unusual features. How would a Vader with an SSS pickup configuration probably come out? Would it be a gamble? Taking it one step further, how about 22 frets (though i'm not sure if they even offer this as an Option 50)?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

adrianb said:


> It appears the general consensus over getting a Kiesel without any workmanship flaws is to avoid exotic woods and unusual features. How would a Vader with an SSS pickup configuration probably come out? Would it be a gamble? Taking it one step further, how about 22 frets (though i'm not sure if they even offer this as an Option 50)?



Any option that makes the guitar non-returnable is not worth it. Never ever.


----------



## adrianb

MaxOfMetal said:


> Any option that makes the guitar non-returnable is not worth it. Never ever.



That's the final nail in the coffin for my 22-fret SSS Strat-like Vader idea. Somebody on TGP had one made -- but with 24 frets, and i really hate the look of SSS with 24 frets -- which is why i had hope.


----------



## spudmunkey

adrianb said:


> That's the final nail in the coffin for my 22-fret SSS Strat-like Vader idea. Somebody on TGP had one made -- but with 24 frets, and i really hate the look of SSS with 24 frets -- which is why i had hope.



They currently don't offer a 22-fret version of the Vader, anyway. Fret count change isn't something I've ever seen them do, outside of models where it's an option. 

On the Vader, if they moved the 22nd fret up to where the 24th currently is, and kept the scale length the same, they would likely have to re-design the body to be able to pull the bridge back further away from the end of the fretboard. On the aries, which has a 22-fret version, it's easy because the top is flat and they just have to re-position everything. On the Vader, though, because the bridge is already at the back edge of the body, there's nowhere for the bridge to move *to*. Or, they could move the horns/fret access cutaways, but again, that's re-designing the whole body.

For example, if you look at their 22-fret CT6 and 24-fret CT624, the highest frets of each model is in the same place, but the bridges are in different locations to keep the scale length the same.


----------



## Restarted

adrianb said:


> It appears the general consensus over getting a Kiesel without any workmanship flaws is to avoid exotic woods and unusual features. How would a Vader with an SSS pickup configuration probably come out? Would it be a gamble? Taking it one step further, how about 22 frets (though i'm not sure if they even offer this as an Option 50)?



If you ever find a 22 fret headless with SSS or HSS pickup configuration (but not Kiesel), pleeeaaase let me know


----------



## Albake21

Restarted said:


> If you ever find a 22 fret headless with SSS or HSS pickup configuration (but not Kiesel), pleeeaaase let me know


Out of curiosity, what's the big deal about it having two more extra frets? It's not like anything changes, frets 1 through 22 are still in the same position.


----------



## Restarted

Albake21 said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the big deal about it having two more extra frets? It's not like anything changes, frets 1 through 22 are still in the same position.



Sliiiightly darker tone on neck pickup since it's further from the bridge.


----------



## mastapimp

Albake21 said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the big deal about it having two more extra frets? It's not like anything changes, frets 1 through 22 are still in the same position.


position of the neck pickup changes.


----------



## Albake21

Ah fair enough. Wasn't sure if it made a difference or not.


----------



## spudmunkey

Also, some folks will say that by eliminating those two frets, that the neck pickup can then sit where the node of the vibrating string is.

However...I don't really buy that, because the moment you fret a string anywhere other than the 12th or 24th fret, the node will be somewhere else anyway, including sometimes over where a pickup would be on a 24 fret guitar. I can get (along with/behind) the "further from the bridge = warmer tone" argument, but not the "node" stuff.

And finally, it can change how the guitar is positioned on you, similar to the difference between a single cut and double cut.

For example, if you take the Kiesel Zeus and the Osiris. Two guitars that are otherwise identical, the double cut with the longer horn will hang such that the nut is a little closer to your torso, and the bridge is slightly more to the right.

Now, if you have a model like their CT6 and CT624 like I mentioned above, they both have their respective highest frets at the same part of the neck joint, which means that the CT624's longer fretboard extends further out...and because the scale is the same length, the bridge is moved towards your fretting hand by that same amount.

But they aren't all created equal. If you take a look at something like their Delos model: Start with the 22 fret version that looks a lot like a Strat. Now...just adding two frets would put them too far over the body to be accessible. Warmoth has a neck where the nut and everything else about the neck stays in the same position, and the two frets just extended further out over the body...hard to reach, and you lose the neck pickup. To make them accessible, they also have a 24-fret conversion neck that can leave the nut where it is, but then to keep those highest frets accessible, they have to bump the scale up to 28-5/8 " scale since the bridge can't also bump out. To go back to the Kiesel Delos, to solve for this, they just made the treble-side fret access cutaway deeper, and more off-set from the upper cutaway. So the nut and bridge are in the same places in relation to the guitar's body and how it will hang in front of you.


----------



## spudmunkey

One correction to the post above...I said Warmoth's 24 fret conversion neck that keeps the 24th fret accessible keeps the nut at the same place...I meant "bridge" instead of nut. The nut is pushed way out.


----------



## noise in my mind

adrianb said:


> It appears the general consensus over getting a Kiesel without any workmanship flaws is to avoid exotic woods and unusual features. How would a Vader with an SSS pickup configuration probably come out? Would it be a gamble? Taking it one step further, how about 22 frets (though i'm not sure if they even offer this as an Option 50)?



I ordered a very basic build and they still messed it up.


----------



## laxu

adrianb said:


> It appears the general consensus over getting a Kiesel without any workmanship flaws is to avoid exotic woods and unusual features. How would a Vader with an SSS pickup configuration probably come out? Would it be a gamble? Taking it one step further, how about 22 frets (though i'm not sure if they even offer this as an Option 50)?



Exotic woods are fine, just avoid things like custom finishes or option 50 stuff. Pick your specs from the website, then email them to [email protected] for good service and being able to ask whatever questions you have.


----------



## adrianb

spudmunkey said:


> They currently don't offer a 22-fret version of the Vader, anyway. Fret count change isn't something I've ever seen them do, outside of models where it's an option.
> 
> On the Vader, if they moved the 22nd fret up to where the 24th currently is, and kept the scale length the same, they would likely have to re-design the body to be able to pull the bridge back further away from the end of the fretboard. On the aries, which has a 22-fret version, it's easy because the top is flat and they just have to re-position everything. On the Vader, though, because the bridge is already at the back edge of the body, there's nowhere for the bridge to move *to*. Or, they could move the horns/fret access cutaways, but again, that's re-designing the whole body.



I'm not sure i follow. The Vader is 25.5" scale and neck-through, going from 24 to 22 frets would just involve removing the two highest frets and re-positioning the neck pickup toward the nut. Shirley they'd have router templates for a proper 22-fret SSS config.



Albake21 said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the big deal about it having two more extra frets? It's not like anything changes, frets 1 through 22 are still in the same position.



Just to add to what @mastapimp and @Restarted said, the neck position on a 24-fretter just isn't as round and dark as that of a 22-fretter.



laxu said:


> Exotic woods are fine, just avoid things like custom finishes or option 50 stuff. Pick your specs from the website, then email them to [email protected] for good service and being able to ask whatever questions you have.



Unfortunately the SSS pickup config i really want is an Option 50.


----------



## spudmunkey

adrianb said:


> I'm not sure i follow. The Vader is 25.5" scale and neck-through, going from 24 to 22 frets would just involve removing the two highest frets and re-positioning the neck pickup toward the nut. Shirley they'd have router templates for a proper 22-fret SSS config.



1st, they would still have to re design the body. You might be able to move the Pick up route maybe one fret further down, but there just isn't Room to move the berneck hum bucker 2 frets down, without hitting a body contour.

2nd, they currently do not make any 22 fret neck through. And even when they did a few years ago, it was a 25" scale guitar (DC150 "reissue"). Their neck pickup routes on their bolt ons is combined with the neck pocket route, so it is a bit different doing it on their neck through. It actually would take more design time and effort to do it.

Since it has been years since they have offered a 22 fret neck through, I suspect that the 1st 22 fret headless guitar you would see from them would be a bolt on of some sort. Maaaaybe a set neck.


----------



## adrianb

spudmunkey said:


> 1st, they would still have to re design the body. You might be able to move the Pick up route maybe one fret further down, but there just isn't Room to move the berneck hum bucker 2 frets down, without hitting a body contour.
> 
> 2nd, they currently do not make any 22 fret neck through. And even when they did a few years ago, it was a 25" scale guitar (DC150 "reissue"). Their neck pickup routes on their bolt ons is combined with the neck pocket route, so it is a bit different doing it on their neck through. It actually would take more design time and effort to do it.
> 
> Since it has been years since they have offered a 22 fret neck through, I suspect that the 1st 22 fret headless guitar you would see from them would be a bolt on of some sort. Maaaaybe a set neck.



Maybe i'm just being slow right now, but i still don't get your explanation. The scale length wouldn't change, so all fret positions for the 22-fret version would be the same as on the 24, minus 2 upper frets. Going by pics of Vaders, they would just have to shorten the fretboard and move the neck pickup route by a few centimeters to where it would be on a 22-fret. It wouldn't even hit the lower horn. The bridge can stay where it is.


----------



## Albake21

adrianb said:


> Maybe i'm just being slow right now, but i still don't get your explanation. The scale length wouldn't change, so all fret positions for the 22-fret version would be the same as on the 24, minus 2 upper frets. Going by pics of Vaders, they would just have to shorten the fretboard and move the neck pickup route by a few centimeters to where it would be on a 22-fret. It wouldn't even hit the lower horn. The bridge can stay where it is.


Yeah I'm a bit confused too. What you're saying was what I mentioned a few posts back. The scale length, nut, bridge, neck, everything stays the same on a 22 vs 24 fret guitar. The only thing that changes are the overhang of the two extra frets for 24 frets and the neck pickup getting moved. Look at all of the 22 fret Aries, they are all the exact same besides having an overhang for the two extra frets vs an Aries with 22 frets.


----------



## trem licking

adrianb said:


> Maybe i'm just being slow right now, but i still don't get your explanation. The scale length wouldn't change, so all fret positions for the 22-fret version would be the same as on the 24, minus 2 upper frets. Going by pics of Vaders, they would just have to shorten the fretboard and move the neck pickup route by a few centimeters to where it would be on a 22-fret. It wouldn't even hit the lower horn. The bridge can stay where it is.



the issue is not removing frets and keeping everything else the same, the issue is there is not enough room to move the neck pickup up to where it SHOULD be on a 22 fret guitar. if you look at a picture of a vader and using your mind's eye to remove 2 frets and slide the pickup upwards, you will see that the pickup route will go right into the scoop... ie not enough room to put it there unless they change the body size/shape. in addition to not being possible, a hacked attempt to do it anyways would look weird as hell


----------



## spudmunkey

adrianb said:


> Maybe i'm just being slow right now, but i still don't get your explanation. The scale length wouldn't change, so all fret positions for the 22-fret version would be the same as on the 24, minus 2 upper frets. Going by pics of Vaders, they would just have to shorten the fretboard and move the neck pickup route by a few centimeters to where it would be on a 22-fret. It wouldn't even hit the lower horn. The bridge can stay where it is.



I'm not talking about the scale length, except saying what else would need to change to keep the scale length the same.

If you moved the neck pickup closer to the nut, I don't think there's enough room there to pick up the 2 frets worth of spacing. Kiesel won't want a skinny strip of wood there, if there;s enough wood there anyway. This is why they don't offer the Fluence on certain multiscale guitars what that same "scoop" on the lower horn.




Albake21 said:


> Yeah I'm a bit confused too. What you're saying was what I mentioned a few posts back. The scale length, nut, bridge, neck, everything stays the same on a 22 vs 24 fret guitar. That would make those two extra frets way hard to access. The only thing that changes are the overhang of the two extra frets for 24 frets and the neck pickup getting moved. Look at all of the 22 fret Aries, they are all the exact same besides having an overhang for the two extra frets vs an Aries with 22 frets.



Look at them again (and make sure you're comparing "beveled to beveled" or "bevel delete to bevel delete", because using one of each makes the differences harder to see). The 23rd and 24th frets on the 24 fret Aries don't extend deeper into the bodies than the 22nd fret does on the 22nd fret model. That would make those two frets very very difficult to reach. On the 22 fret model, the bridge is moved in the direction of the bottom strap button, which pulls the whole scale length in, so that the 22nd fret is in the same location on the 22 fret model as the 24th fret is on the 24 fret model. Same with the CT's two versions. Eachmodel's highest fret is in the same, accessible location...and to do that, they move the bridge and nut to keep the scale the same.


----------



## adrianb

trem licking said:


> the issue is not removing frets and keeping everything else the same, the issue is there is not enough room to move the neck pickup up to where it SHOULD be on a 22 fret guitar. if you look at a picture of a vader and using your mind's eye to remove 2 frets and slide the pickup upwards, you will see that the pickup route will go right into the scoop... ie not enough room to put it there unless they change the body size/shape. in addition to not being possible, a hacked attempt to do it anyways would look weird as hell





spudmunkey said:


> I'm not talking about the scale length, except saying what else would need to change to keep the scale length the same.
> 
> If you moved the neck pickup closer to the nut, I don't think there's enough room there to pick up the 2 frets worth of spacing. Kiesel won't want a skinny strip of wood there, if there;s enough wood there anyway. This is why they don't offer the Fluence on certain multiscale guitars what that same "scoop" on the lower horn.



I don't think the neck pickup will have to move a great deal; on a 22-fret Stratocaster there is still some distance between the pickup and the 22nd fret. The pickup doesn't sit flush to the edge of the fretboard. Also, i have a single-coil neck pickup in mind, not a full-size humbucker.

EDIT: check out this pic that the Kiesel sales guy sent me before he stopped answering my email.








Yeah i guess i could see how moving the neck single would hit the beveling on the lower horn. Oh well.


----------



## diagrammatiks

adrianb said:


> I don't think the neck pickup will have to move a great deal; on a 22-fret Stratocaster there is still some distance between the pickup and the 22nd fret. The pickup doesn't sit flush to the edge of the fretboard. Also, i have a single-coil neck pickup in mind, not a full-size humbucker.
> 
> EDIT: check out this pic that the Kiesel sales guy sent me before he stopped answering my email.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah i guess i could see how moving the neck single would hit the beveling on the lower horn. Oh well.



they'd only be able to take away two frets on that body. they can't move the pickup. it would hit the bevel.

also why is the middle pickup position so weird.


----------



## spudmunkey

diagrammatiks said:


> also why is the middle pickup position so weird.



The pickup is centered between the active coil of the humbucker, and the neck pickup.


----------



## spudmunkey

adrianb said:


> I don't think the neck pickup will have to move a great deal; on a 22-fret Stratocaster there is still some distance between the pickup and the 22nd fret. The pickup doesn't sit flush to the edge of the fretboard.



So...you want a 22 fret guitar for the tone, but are OK if the pickup is floating off the end of the fretboard, which is almost in the place it already is (or is at least halfway there) on the 24 fret model, with the pickup tight against the fretboard end?


----------



## adrianb

diagrammatiks said:


> they'd only be able to take away two frets on that body. they can't move the pickup. it would hit the bevel.
> 
> also why is the middle pickup position so weird.



Not as weird as the (angled) bridge single coil on a 24-fret SSS config. 

Random pic i found on imgur:









spudmunkey said:


> So...you want a 22 fret guitar for the tone, but are OK if the pickup is floating off the end of the fretboard, which is almost in the place it already is (or is at least halfway there) on the 24 fret model, with the pickup tight against the fretboard end?



It might work!  Get rid of the beveling (which i'm not really a fan of, on any guitar), and there'd be clearance.


----------



## adrianb

spudmunkey said:


> The pickup is centered between the active coil of the humbucker, and the neck pickup.



Hey that's an interesting fact. I didn't know that.


----------



## noise in my mind

I wanted to follow up with my Kiesel exeperience. They did repair the dents in the fingerboard (even though you can still kinda see them). They repaired the dent on the headstock, but it was damaged during shipping due to their admitted guitar case flaw. They did level out the frets that play pretty good now. I asked for a refund and they gave me $50 back for the dented headstock. Overall, it was a mediocre experience. On the positive they did complete the guitar in 8 weeks, however it was an extremely basic spec order. The fixing time was about a month though...


----------



## Exit Existence

Price increases happen across all brands they just hide it instead of announce it.

Fender discontinues American Special Series, and replace it with American Performer series which is $100 more.

You used to be able to get basic ibanez prestige guitars for $1,100-$1400. Now they are selling iron label guitars in almost the $1k price range..

And one price increase that surprised me the most was USA Jackson. I bought a USA SL2H brand new for $1799 15 years ago and the exact same model now has a $2999 MAP lol


----------



## V_man

Exit Existence said:


> And one price increase that surprised me the most was USA Jackson. I bought a USA SL2H brand new for $1799 15 years ago and the exact same model now has a $2999 MAP lol



And They are still better than kiesel


----------



## spudmunkey

V_man said:


> And They are still better than kiesel



At over double the price, with nickel frets, non-locking tuners, and no coil split? I should hope so.


----------



## V_man

spudmunkey said:


> At over double the price, with nickel frets, non-locking tuners, and no coil split? I should hope so.


yeah but they have less flaws on them


----------



## stevexc

V_man said:


> yeah but they have less flaws on them


something something 23 frets


----------



## cip 123

stevexc said:


> something something 23 frets


something something 25 frets


----------



## V_man

stevexc said:


> something something 23 frets


And how many jackson with 23 frets are around? one. How many kiesel with flaws are around?......


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Exit Existence said:


> Price increases happen across all brands they just hide it instead of announce it.
> 
> Fender discontinues American Special Series, and replace it with American Performer series which is $100 more.
> 
> You used to be able to get basic ibanez prestige guitars for $1,100-$1400. Now they are selling iron label guitars in almost the $1k price range..
> 
> And one price increase that surprised me the most was USA Jackson. I bought a USA SL2H brand new for $1799 15 years ago and the exact same model now has a $2999 MAP lol



Ibanez still makes MIJ RGs for about $1k. They just call them Genesis instead of Prestige. Still made at Fujigen. 

https://www.ibanezrules.com/new/rg550dy.htm

Jackson USA standard stuff is closer to $2400. It's the Select semi-custom that are something like $2600 to $3000 unless you go crazy with options. 

http://www.mattsmusic.com/SL2H-prod.html


----------



## icipher

As much as I don't love Jeff Kiesel and some of his goons, if you get a good specimen and don't overspec it, you're getting a GREAT guitar for the money.


----------



## V_man

icipher said:


> As much as I don't love Jeff Kiesel and some of his goons, if you get a good specimen and don't overspec it, you're getting a GREAT guitar for the money.


And if you don´t get a good one you have to deal with the worst customer service in history


----------



## spudmunkey

V_man said:


> And if you don´t get a good one you have to deal with the worst customer service in history



Amy's Baking Company would like to have a word.


----------



## V_man

spudmunkey said:


> Amy's Baking Company would like to have a word.


Lmao You have to love how kiesel fans try to elude the subject.


----------



## xzacx

V_man said:


> And how many jackson with 23 frets are around? one. How many kiesel with flaws are around?......


Jackson also immediately offered to rebuild it and didn’t hassle the buyer and tell them there was nothing wrong. Although I have to say that to this day, I can’t figure out how that possibly could have happened. 

Also specs don’t make guitars. You can throw stainless frets and locking tuners on anything, and that’ll work on some people that buy based on specs, but it doesn’t make them better guitars.


----------



## spudmunkey

Of course not. But with lower-cost "spec", a $3k guitar SHOULD be better than a $1,500 guitar.


----------



## Jeff

V_man said:


> yeah but they have less flaws on them



That’s a super generalized statement. I’ve personally held and played three in the last few months, and they’ve all been flawless. 

Like everyone stays, don’t sniff glue and order option 50 shit, and you’re golden.


----------



## speedyone

I tried to like Kiesel (Carvin).

I really did.

I loved the concept of a direct sales company, and a huge number of options to make the perfect guitar.

But all 3 of the Carvins/Kiesel I ordered were screwed up.

My first order:

DC127- I requested a highly figured Quilted Maple top. I requested NO CHEVRON pattern. I hate how that looks! I sent a picture of the exact figuring I wanted. It arrived with damn near NO figuring in the maple, NONE. I was so pissed, but didn’t complain. The guitar played incredibly well. INCREDIBLY well.

The tone was just.... meh. Uninspiring. No unique sound you’d get from a Strat, a Les Paul, a Tele, etc.

I sold it a few months later.

DC727- I requested a simple swamp ash top, black hardware. It arrived with an AMAZING figured top. It was like “Flamed Swamp Ash”. I was blown away! Then, I looked at the hardware.

Chrome. All chrome. Ugh.

I couldn’t believe they had Effed up a SECOND time!

I plugged it in to play. Once again, UNBELIEVABLE playability!! The tone was.... once again, meh. It wasn’t shrill, or bassy, or muddy. Just... not inspiring. This time I DID call to discuss the wrong colored hardware. They apologized and asked if I wanted to send the guitar back. I said no, because I didn’t want to be without my only guitar for potentially weeks or months.

I eventually sold this one too.

HH2- Maybe my last 2 ordering experiences were a fluke ?BOTH my previous guitars had unrivaled playability, maybe the fact that the tone was uninspiring was because of the woods that I chose? Maybe it was a fluke that they messed up my order specs.... the wrong color hardware, the wrong wood figuring patterns...

I received my GORGEOUS HH2 headless, and was so psyched to try it out! The finish- Perfect!!! They even put 008 gauge strings on it like I requested! I plugged it in and strummed some chords. Awesome!!! Rich, complex, and saturated tones. Perfect! Then, I tried to do a few string bends.

Wait.... what?!! This thing felt like it had 013’s on it!
It was damn near impossible to bend a note on the high E.
I though to myself, “Ok, this is weird. But it’s all in my head. I’m going to just use the Trem for some nice vibrato instead.”

Impossible. The guitar would NOT stay in tune, not even using the trem for a TINY change in pitch.

I had requested that my HH2 be equipped with the version II J-Custom trem, because I had heard on the Carvin/Kiesel forum that the version I trem was a piece of crap, and was being replaced by a “perfected one.”

I called up customer service, and discussed what I was experiencing with the trem. Their response, to paraphrase, was something like, “Man, that really sucks, sorry. Yeah, a bunch of guys have been returning theirs for the same reason.” They didn’t even offer to trouble shoot it, or ask if I wanted a rebuild, or any kind of help to sort it out. “So, you wanna just send it back for a refund, right?”

Yes I did.

I thanked them for their time.

No one was ever an @sshat to me.

Years later, I got to try a used original Carvin H2. It too had unrivaled playability. It DID sound great. I wished I would have have bought it.

That’s my experience.

I’m happy for all those who got the guitar/s of their dreams.

I did not.

I will personally never buy a new Kiesel again. My track record is 0 for 3. But damn if they aren’t THE BEST PLAYING mass produced guitars on the planet!


----------



## oremus91

Damn V_Man, show us on the doll where Jeff Kiesel touched you.


----------



## narad

oremus91 said:


> Damn V_Man, show us on the doll where Jeff Kiesel touched you.



Just look for the bevel spot, obviously.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

speedyone said:


> SNIP



It sounds like you don't like the tone of a neck-thru or at least a Kiesel neck-thru. This is a common complaint I've read countless times. Maybe try one of the bolt-on or set-neck models if you really like the playability of their other guitars.


----------



## Fred the Shred

To be fair, it's probs more the construction thing above all else, like Lorcan said - you were happy with the Holdsworth axes, and those are set neck construction, as opposed to the 127 and 727.


----------



## bostjan

@speedyone Your story sounds pretty disappointing, but honestly, that's not as bad as some of the stuff that's been posted over the last few years.


----------



## adrianb

Lorcan Ward said:


> It sounds like you don't like the tone of a neck-thru or at least a Kiesel neck-thru. This is a common complaint I've read countless times. Maybe try one of the bolt-on or set-neck models if you really like the playability of their other guitars.



Genuinely curious, as i've never played a neck-through or set-neck guitar ever: Do they really sound different from bolt-ons?


----------



## Fred the Shred

The thing that changes the most noticeably is the behaviour of the initial attack due to how string vibration is produced and propagates, but yes, different types will have a different tone to them if you keep everything else constant on the guitar. It's worth mentioning that a lot of it is on the subtle side of things, and there's a ton of myths pertaining sustain that simply aren't true at all.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

adrianb said:


> Genuinely curious, as i've never played a neck-through or set-neck guitar ever: Do they really sound different from bolt-ons?



Short answer: it depends.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

adrianb said:


> Genuinely curious, as i've never played a neck-through or set-neck guitar ever: Do they really sound different from bolt-ons?



I’ve little experience with neck-thrus so can’t comment there but I find a big difference in the directness of a note between bolt-on and set neck. A bolt-on has this quicker faster response like the note is instant compared to a setneck. While a setneck has a fatter tail to a note and tend to be fuller across the board in this aspect. Just those little things that all add up but I’ve noticed a lot of kiesel players are taken back by how much difference in tone there was when they tried the bolt-on kiesel models after playing neck thru for years.


----------



## V_man

oremus91 said:


> Damn V_Man, show us on the doll where Jeff Kiesel touched you.



He touch me in the very same spot where your mother touch me the other day. Cordial greetings


----------



## Jeff

Lorcan Ward said:


> It sounds like you don't like the tone of a neck-thru or at least a Kiesel neck-thru. This is a common complaint I've read countless times. Maybe try one of the bolt-on or set-neck models if you really like the playability of their other guitars.



Yup. I've had a few Carvins, and played a bunch of ESP's and Soloists. It's a particular sound, IMHO.



adrianb said:


> Genuinely curious, as i've never played a neck-through or set-neck guitar ever: Do they really sound different from bolt-ons?



IMO, absolutely. 



V_man said:


> He touch me in the very same spot where your mother touch me the other day. Cordial greetings



This is a new and exciting diss that I've never heard before.


----------



## Andromalia

adrianb said:


> Genuinely curious, as i've never played a neck-through or set-neck guitar ever: Do they really sound different from bolt-ons?



It's practically impossible to know. 
Getting two identical guitars with just a different neck joint is pretty much impossible. You can have two *same model* guitars having a different feel, and a bolt-on might feel more like one of those. This comes from wood irregularities, differences in crafstmanship, etc. 
Even if you were able to do a 100% accurrate replica of a guitar with just a differen tneck joint, it wouldn't be made of the same piece of wood, so...

People will tell you this wood this and that wood that and this neck joint this... At this point I gave up and just judge guitars on their individual merit. Not the model or wood, the specific piece I'm playing. What does it matter what guitars I don't play sound like ? I'm not the one playing them.


----------



## adrianb

Fred the Shred said:


> The thing that changes the most noticeably is the behaviour of the initial attack due to how string vibration is produced and propagates, but yes, different types will have a different tone to them if you keep everything else constant on the guitar. It's worth mentioning that a lot of it is on the subtle side of things, and there's a ton of myths pertaining sustain that simply aren't true at all.





MaxOfMetal said:


> Short answer: it depends.





Lorcan Ward said:


> I’ve little experience with neck-thrus so can’t comment there but I find a big difference in the directness of a note between bolt-on and set neck. A bolt-on has this quicker faster response like the note is instant compared to a setneck. While a setneck has a fatter tail to a note and tend to be fuller across the board in this aspect. Just those little things that all add up but I’ve noticed a lot of kiesel players are taken back by how much difference in tone there was when they tried the bolt-on kiesel models after playing neck thru for years.





Jeff said:


> IMO, absolutely.





Andromalia said:


> It's practically impossible to know.
> Getting two identical guitars with just a different neck joint is pretty much impossible. You can have two *same model* guitars having a different feel, and a bolt-on might feel more like one of those. This comes from wood irregularities, differences in crafstmanship, etc.
> Even if you were able to do a 100% accurrate replica of a guitar with just a differen tneck joint, it wouldn't be made of the same piece of wood, so...
> 
> People will tell you this wood this and that wood that and this neck joint this... At this point I gave up and just judge guitars on their individual merit. Not the model or wood, the specific piece I'm playing. What does it matter what guitars I don't play sound like ? I'm not the one playing them.



Back when i was seriously considering and speccing out a Vader the main draw for neck-through for me was the neck stability, i.e., no need to adjust the neck. At least that's what i think.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

adrianb said:


> Back when i was seriously considering and speccing out a Vader the main draw for neck-through for me was the neck stability, i.e., no need to adjust the neck. At least that's what i think.



Neck joint type has no impact on the overall stability [tendency of the neck relief to change with climate] of the neck. The only way to avoid having to adjust a truss rod every so often is to buy a guitar without one.


----------



## laxu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Neck joint type has no impact on the overall stability [tendency of the neck relief to change with climate] of the neck. The only way to avoid having to adjust a truss rod every so often is to buy a guitar without one.



Things like laminated necks and carbon fiber reinforcement rods should also help but ultimately you are right, how the neck is mounted has no bearing on how much adjustment it will need.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

also depending on the wood, it can move in weird ways. I know my JB200 neck has moved weirdly over the years and when i get some bad noise from fretting its always on the 1st and 2nd strings around the 1st-3rd frets. Japan has wild changes in humidity throughout the year so that contributes to it though.


----------



## adrianb

MaxOfMetal said:


> Neck joint type has no impact on the overall stability [tendency of the neck relief to change with climate] of the neck. The only way to avoid having to adjust a truss rod every so often is to buy a guitar without one.





laxu said:


> Things like laminated necks and carbon fiber reinforcement rods should also help but ultimately you are right, how the neck is mounted has no bearing on how much adjustment it will need.



Getting to be off-topic, but what about composite/non-wood necks like Steinberger's and Aristides'?


----------



## Science_Penguin

adrianb said:


> Getting to be off-topic, but what about composite/non-wood necks like Steinberger's and Aristides'?



I've got a Moses Graphite neck on one of my Strats. While it is a bit more resistant to bending out of shape, it's not immune and still has a truss rod. But, in my experience, you really just have to avoid leaving it in INTENSE heat. As in, trunk of a car in Texas.... Don't ask me how I know that...


----------



## laxu

adrianb said:


> Getting to be off-topic, but what about composite/non-wood necks like Steinberger's and Aristides'?



I've got a Flaxwood that is made of injection moulded wood fiber and resin. Body, neck and even the nut are of the same material. I don't think I have ever adjusted its truss rod.


----------



## Andromalia

They shouldn't budge. Some wood necks with enough reinforcements don't even have trussrods (Vigier)


----------



## spudmunkey

Andromalia said:


> They shouldn't budge. Some wood necks with enough reinforcements don't even have trussrods (Vigier)



This...although to be clear, their necks are 10% carbon, and it's a beam running down the center of the neck....it's more like it's a super skinny carbon neck, with wood "wings" along for the ride almost as void-fill. They also claim that it helps eliminate neck vibration, which...if you're picking wood for tone, that just about takes it out of the equation.








> This exclusive advanced concept of 10% carbon and 90% wood replaces the traditional metal truss rod with a dense carbon strip to reinforce the neck. Employed for 18 years on all Vigier guitars and basses, this concept makes the neck strong and stable during climate change. We never believed it was logical to drill a hole through a neck and then insert a rod of metal inside. Because wood necks vibrate, they can absorb the energy of the string and shorten sustain. The 10/90 neck is solid, notes ring longer and your sound is precise and powerful.


----------



## V_man

Andromalia said:


> They shouldn't budge. Some wood necks with enough reinforcements don't even have trussrods (Vigier)



About trussrodless guitars. In spanish speaking countries we call that the soul of the guitar "el alma de la guitarra". So why would you want a guitar without a soul?.


----------



## iamaom

V_man said:


> About trussrodless guitars. In spanish speaking countries we call that the soul of the guitar "el alma de la guitarra". So why would you want a guitar without a soul?.


But aren't truss rods a recent invention? Also quite a few classical guitars, even expensive ones, don't have truss rods. Are spanish speakers buying guitars based on truss rod tone?


----------



## spudmunkey

iamaom said:


> But aren't truss rods a recent invention? Also quite a few classical guitars, even expensive ones, don't have truss rods. Are spanish speakers buying guitars based on truss rod tone?



I mean...honestly, going from a slack truss rod to one with tension on it can actually have a pretty pronounced effect on tone/feel. [/canofworms]


----------



## V_man

iamaom said:


> Are spanish speakers buying guitars based on truss rod tone?


The same amount of people that buy gibsons because they smell like vainilla. Also I don't like to theorize about guitar nor do I smell them. Just play the thing. If I like how they sound I keep it. If not I continue searching


----------



## spudmunkey

V_man said:


> The same amount of people that buy gibsons because they smell like vainilla. Also I don't like to theorize about guitar nor do I smell them. Just play the thing. If I like how they sound I keep it. If not I continue searching



You get the same smell from a G&G case. I forget if it's an adhesive, or an anti-fungal sort of protectant that is sprayed in the cases at some times of the year. I think...


----------



## PuriPuriPrisoner

adrianb said:


> Getting to be off-topic, but what about composite/non-wood necks like Steinberger's and Aristides'?



Supposedly, Aristides’ necks are very stable because their composite material isn’t affected by humidity. I haven’t owned one though so I can’t say for sure.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Aristides necks move very little, to be honest, and it does take them a good while to even budge, which is a godsend on the road. There are wooden guitars that are able to have tremendous resilience to humidity and temp changes, mind you, but it's the consistency you know they'll have in that respect that makes this trait all the more reassuring.


----------



## Albake21

PuriPuriPrisoner said:


> Supposedly, Aristides’ necks are very stable because their composite material isn’t affected by humidity. I haven’t owned one though so I can’t say for sure.


When I owned one it never moved for months. They do move, but no where near the typical wood neck. Like what Fred said though, a wood neck can be made to withstand humidity and temp change just as good as an Aristides neck.


----------



## spudmunkey

I know. I know that Aristides put a shit-ton of time, effort and cost into developing their material science. I know that it's basically proven to be a superior (in function) material. I know that they don't use the same PVC plastic-wrapped foam brick mold trim that I installed around an exterior door on the side of my garage....

...but mentally, I keep thinking about how that door trim expands/contracts like crazy in the sun/changing temps.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Well, to be honest, you need to think that Arium itself is a porous material, so that could eventually happen in theory, were it not wrapped in a stiff as fuck exoskeleton made out of carbon and glass fiber, and good luck bending that by changing humidity or inducing temperature variations that don't kill you outright.


----------



## spudmunkey

Fred the Shred said:


> Well, to be honest, you need to think that Arium itself is a porous material, so that could eventually happen in theory, were it not wrapped in a stiff as fuck exoskeleton made out of carbon and glass fiber, and good luck bending that by changing humidity or inducing temperature variations that don't kill you outright.



"My neck started moving, but it's not that big of a big deal since I've drowned/been boiled/flash frozen."


----------



## Seabeast2000

Need an extra-vehicular space demo to be sure on these Aristedes.


----------



## Science_Penguin

The906 said:


> Need an extra-vehicular space demo to be sure on these Aristedes.



It'd be a hell of a commercial at least.


----------



## Mathemagician

Just picturing one guy trying to smash it onstage like Kurt Cobain/every rockstar ever and it just bouncing back like “nope”. Then he digs in and smashes it a few more times and barely dents the bridge.


----------



## spudmunkey

...and then someone takes lighter fluid and a torch to it, and it burns black, stinky smoke, and melts (unless it's not that type of material...then maybe it just blisters and cracks?)


----------



## Dyingsea

iamaom said:


> But aren't truss rods a recent invention? Also quite a few classical guitars, even expensive ones, don't have truss rods. Are spanish speakers buying guitars based on truss rod tone?



Concert flamenco and classical guitars generally don't because they are made and braced properly and more importantly have correctly cured cedar sometimes mahogany necks. Most cheap factory ones do because well it's factory made.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

iamaom said:


> But aren't truss rods a recent invention? Also quite a few classical guitars, even expensive ones, don't have truss rods. Are spanish speakers buying guitars based on truss rod tone?



I suppose "recent" is a relative term, adjustable truss rods being patented in the 20's by Gibson. Prior to that, guitars used metal rods/tubing to provide extra support, at least for a number of generations prior. 

The really expensive classical guitars (some costing as much a decent cars) are typically not treated the same as much cheaper examples. They live their lives in climate controlled rooms and any slight issue is quickly and professionally corrected. 

Classical/Flamenco guitars also use string tension as a form of correction. 

That said, the large, wide necks, low string tension, relative intonation, and high action (compared to most steel string and electrics) makes neck relief less noticeable.

It's just kind of a different beast.


----------



## spudmunkey

I would say that the high actual is a fairly important point. On most electric guitars, not only is the truss rod used to keep the neck in place, but it's also used as one of the several things that can be adjusted (neck relief) to fine-tune the fretboard in a set-up to a player's preference, in conjunction with the nut slots, and bridge saddle height.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Check this out, from 32:50 talking about Kiesel


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> Check this out, from 32:50 talking about Kiesel




The fact that nothing changes for CITES for companies like Kiesel? Not really about Kiesel at all.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> The fact that nothing changes for CITES for companies like Kiesel? Not really about Kiesel at all.



You didnt listen to all the commentary AFTER that CITES discussion about Kiesel and people's opinions about the company.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> You didnt listen to all the commentary AFTER that CITES discussion about Kiesel and people's opinions about the company.



I will later. I was hoping your time code would be more accurate


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> I will later. I was hoping your time code would be more accurate



I didnt post one, Phillip mcknight does it every week himself. Just expand out the description.


----------



## xzacx

All he said basically is some people love Kiesel and some hate it, not exactly groundbreaking stuff or worth mentioning.


----------



## Jeff

xzacx said:


> All he said basically is some people love Kiesel and some hate it, not exactly groundbreaking stuff or worth mentioning.



Yup. Not really worth the post.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

not groundbreaking but i find it interesting that Phillip puts it out there that there is a lot of hate of the brand and Jeff Kiesel


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> not groundbreaking but i find it interesting that Phillip puts it out there that there is a lot of hate of the brand and Jeff Kiesel



There’s also a lot of people that love the brand. Not saying that I’m one of them, but don’t paint it as one-sided. That’s not what Phil said.


----------



## narad

I hate Kiesel as much as the next guy that hates Kiesel, but it didn't sound like the takeaway of that video was that ~"there's a lot of hate for Kiesel". Honestly more positive than negative overall.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

narad said:


> I hate Kiesel as much as the next guy that hates Kiesel, but it didn't sound like the takeaway of that video was that ~"there's a lot of hate for Kiesel". Honestly more positive than negative overall.



You have to remember that even he said himself that he just doesnt wanna deal with the long waits that go on now, and he just plays in the builder and then forgets about going through it. Its a valid point to why some people dont go for a kiesel tbh.


----------



## spudmunkey

"Long waits that go on now", I dont feel like is that much of an impact. 8 weeks vs 12, I dont think, is enough if a turn off. If you were willing to pull the trigger for 8, would you really not go through with it at 12? 2 months vs 3? Especially since they are churning out headless, bolt-on's with their (non-returnable, even, which sells like gang-busters) on 6 weeks.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> "Long waits that go on now", I dont feel like is that much of an impact. 8 weeks vs 12, I dont think, is enough if a turn off. If you were willing to pull the trigger for 8, would you really not go through with it at 12? 2 months vs 3? Especially since they are churning out headless, bolt-on's with their (non-returnable, even, which sells like gang-busters) on 6 weeks.



Well phillip said thats why he still doesnt have one. He's one of those people who needs instant gratification, and when people suggested the used market, he said they were too expensive (because he buys other shit).

I'm not saying all the video was people hating on kiesel either, i just said check it out because they talk about kiesel. I dont see anywhere in my post where i claimed it was all negative.


----------



## diagrammatiks

this is now a thread about all the weird shit phil does.

like not buy any custom guitars because they all have longer waits


----------



## Axayacatl

the thought of that phil guy slowly speccing out his ideal Kiesel build and then ... just leaving it in his cart.... never pulling the trigger.... gets me so aroused... forget him clearing the cart and starting a fresh build... is this thread the right place for me? thx friends 

two purchase related questions unrelated to what phil said

(maybe for @spudmunkey to please chime in?)

1. are the Fishman routes in the fanned-fret Kiesel Osiris 7 (OM7) a direct swap for Bare Knuckle _covered_ pickups? Measurements look close. Just trying to understand which of Fishman vs passive Kiesel pickups are easier to move away from or experiment with if needed

2. Re the return policy, if you order an Opt 50 (say, tone knob placement) and they get the wrong size of frets on your build (an unlikely event but an honest oversight if it happened), are you just out of luck in that case in terms of returning it or preferably getting a rebuild because you went Opt 50? Just trying to understand how risky the Opt 50 is vs a regular build for a Joe the Plumber type customer


----------



## spudmunkey

Axayacatl said:


> the thought of that phil guy slowly speccing out his ideal Kiesel build and then ... just leaving it in his cart.... never pulling the trigger.... gets me so aroused... forget him clearing the cart and starting a fresh build... is this thread the right place for me? thx friends



Welcome to the internet. There's lots to see.



Axayacatl said:


> 1. are the Fishman routes in the fanned-fret Kiesel Osiris 7 (OM7) a direct swap for Bare Knuckle _covered_ pickups? Measurements look close. Just trying to understand which of Fishman vs passive Kiesel pickups are easier to move away from or experiment with if needed



Sorry, I dont have enough experience/knowledge with pickups to answer that. Sorry. 



Axayacatl said:


> 2. Re the return policy, if you order an Opt 50 (say, tone knob placement) and they get the wrong size of frets on your build (an unlikely event but an honest oversight if it happened), are you just out of luck in that case in terms of returning it or preferably getting a rebuild because you went Opt 50? Just trying to understand how risky the Opt 50 is vs a regular build for a Joe the Plumber type customer



Joe the Plumber...the guy who worked for a telecommunications company and was planning to buy a plumbing business? 

In theory, you should get what you pay for. We've seen examples of rebuilds. On the forum, from just last week, they are re-doing somebody's JB200C, paying shipping both ways, because they used a white logo instead of the requested silver on black drop-shadow logo. Granted, that doesnt take a re-build to fix, but still.

But we've also seen them dig in their heels, and sometimes on no-brainer issues.


----------



## jarledge

Axayacatl said:


> the thought of that phil guy slowly speccing out his ideal Kiesel build and then ... just leaving it in his cart.... never pulling the trigger.... gets me so aroused... forget him clearing the cart and starting a fresh build... is this thread the right place for me? thx friends
> 
> two purchase related questions unrelated to what phil said
> 
> (maybe for @spudmunkey to please chime in?)
> 
> 1. are the Fishman routes in the fanned-fret Kiesel Osiris 7 (OM7) a direct swap for Bare Knuckle _covered_ pickups? Measurements look close. Just trying to understand which of Fishman vs passive Kiesel pickups are easier to move away from or experiment with if needed
> 
> 2. Re the return policy, if you order an Opt 50 (say, tone knob placement) and they get the wrong size of frets on your build (an unlikely event but an honest oversight if it happened), are you just out of luck in that case in terms of returning it or preferably getting a rebuild because you went Opt 50? Just trying to understand how risky the Opt 50 is vs a regular build for a Joe the Plumber type customer




If you look over the build invoice and approve it, it is a done deal. There are no refunds on that. if you messed up, that is on you. 

If you ordered jumbo and got medium, and your invoice says jumbo they will more than likely rebuild unless it is a bolt on neck in which case they would probably just make a new neck for you. That is regardless of it being non-returnable. With the non-returnable I am fairly certain you have to keep the guitar though, as in it has to be rebuilt or they give you money off for another build. You can't just return it and get your money back because it was built wrong, you have to take the rebuild option or credit. 

Obviously, mistakes are made. They are finishing around 15-20 guitars a day or between 4 and 5,000 guitars a year. So yeah there are going to be a few issues here and there. I think people are more inclined to look at the negative when in reality they are a very small percent. Lets say you mess up 2 guitars a week (that seems like a lot) and you are making 4500 a year. So in a year you are going to mess up 102 guitars. that means you were right 97% of the time. 97% everything was built right and made to spec. I doubt they mess up 2 guitars a week, so at 1 guitar a week that is made wrong, you have 98.8% accuracy. That is pretty good considering the guitars are semi-custom guitars and as many options are available you. 

If you were making the same set of products over and over again with little variation, i'd expect to have a much much lower defect rate, and if you look at 6 sigma you'd be accurate 99.99966. The fact of the matter is you are getting a pretty large difference in products from a production standpoint. I'll take my chances at even a 97% accuracy rate.


----------



## Axayacatl

spudmunkey said:


> Welcome to the internet.





jarledge said:


> If you look over the build invoice and approve it, it is a done deal. There are no refunds on that. if you messed up, that is on you.



Very helpful to make my mind up. Much appreciated, guys.


----------



## Choncie

I ordered a Zues in December with an early March completion date. Noticed a $1,400 charge on my CC with no email or call prior. 
Found out my guitar was completed and ready to ship. Great!, couldn’t wait to get it. Waited a few days and no tracking number, thought that was weird so I emailed them. I received an email that my guitar was already delivered. I thought that was odd since I never received the guitar. I explained that I never received the guitar and that they had made a mistake. 
Come to find out they shipped my guitar to someone else and that person had had the guitar three days by the time Kiesel found out what had happened.
It’s now going on a week and whoever has my guitar still hasn’t shipped it back to Kiesel. They say their work schedule is too hectic but will try to return it soon. 

Kiesel has apologized and I appreciate that but I’m considering a refund. What would you guys do? Wait it out or get your money back?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Get your money back asap. You can always put in another order later. Who knows what the jagoff who didn't send it back is doing to it. I wouldn't want that guitar.


----------



## gunshow86de

Either full-refund or significant (ie several hundred dollars off) discount. It is technically a used instrument now.


----------



## budda

@Choncie full refund. No time for that BS.


----------



## mbardu

budda said:


> @Choncie full refund. No time for that BS.



I also like the option above ^ of asking for a good $$ refund.
Not sure Kiesel would do it...but if they do, then you can easily spot if anything is wrong with a guitar and cleaning it up is really not that difficult.
Funnily enough I once returned a Kiesel I didn't really jive with (probably about 2016?) that I ended up loving when I found it used in a store like 2 months later. Ended up re-buying it at 50% off.

Would have to be a *ver*_*y*_ good amount of $$$ to compensate for the bad experience though.


----------



## mbardu

Choncie said:


> I explained that I never received the guitar and that they had made a mistake.
> Come to find out they shipped my guitar to someone else and that person had had the guitar three days by the time Kiesel found out what had happened.



I like that guy's attitude. Fedex at the door: oooOOOOooo a free guitar I didn't order. Must be my lucky day!
Keeps the guitar and doesn't contact anyone about it. When asked to do so, he "may" do it in a few days.
Living the life 

PS: It's a joke. If the guy is busy at work and lives far from a Fedex dropoff, it's probably a hassle he didn't need. Everyone loses in that situation.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I would just worry about the dude who isn't returning it fucking it up. It's just not worth the risk, not when Kiesel could probably whip up an identical guitar in no time.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I would just worry about the dude who isn't returning it fucking it up. It's just not worth the risk, not when Kiesel could probably whip up an identical guitar in no time.



I mean...unless the guy specifically goes nuts on the truss rod or pries out the electronics or drags the top face first on the pavement....it's hard to really damage a guitar in a few days while you're busy at work. Risk of really _reaaaally _fucking it up as in beyond what a reasonable person could easily check upon a 5 minutes inspection? I guess I don't see it. 
Not pleasant for the future owner for sure though, which is why monetary compensation could be a good compromise; though we're all just speculating anyway.


----------



## olejason

You can guarantee he's had his tallywacker all over the guitar. I wouldn't want it back.


----------



## budda

olejason said:


> You can guarantee he's had his tallywacker all over the guitar. I wouldn't want it back.



More likely is he did things himself and then played guitar, without washing his hands.

(this post is actually a PSA about washing your hands)


----------



## Viginez

i'd try to contact them one more time and ask if the guy responded.


----------



## jemfloral

Money back from Kiesel, immediately. You can always order another. It's their fault for shipping to the wrong person in the first place, why would you accept a 'used' guitar for the price you expected a new one at? As @budda alluded to, particularly with the current state of the world w.r.t. COVID-19...


----------



## MatiasTolkki

jemfloral said:


> Money back from Kiesel, immediately. You can always order another. It's their fault for shipping to the wrong person in the first place, why would you accept a 'used' guitar for the price you expected a new one at? As @budda alluded to, particularly with the current state of the world w.r.t. COVID-19...



Yep, because there are sick people out there who would try to purposely infect others with Kung Flu (yes, this happened here in Japan).


----------



## spudmunkey

I mean...the virus dies on dry surfaces after a couple days at most...

but, yeah...people are gross.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11151...king-fingers-wiping-them-pole-belgium-subway/


----------



## mbardu

I mean...it's a dumb error from the sender, probably frustration for everyone involved (the guy who received it in error included)...and something should definitely be done for the buyer cause that's a terrible experience.

But have you guys never bought a guitar used?
And is it because you just assume other guitar players spend their time rubbing their dong on their instruments or something?
I mean is that...even a thing? Are you guys doing it and I'm missing out on something or what  ?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I mean...it's a dumb error from the sender, probably frustration for everyone involved...and something should definitely be done for the buyer cause that's a bad experience.
> 
> But have you guys never bought a guitar used?
> And is it because you just assume other guitar players spend their time rubbing their dong on their instruments or something?
> I mean is that...even a thing? Are you guys doing it and I'm missing out on something or what  ?



I'm all for used, when I buy used.

This is just a goofy situation and I don't see why you'd go with the "oops" guitar _which hasn't been recovered yet_ as far as we know, when a refund/rebuild is an option. 

I suppose if you really need a couple hundred bucks off (potentially) or need it ASAP it would be worth it, of course that timeline is uncertain given we have no idea what the situation with the guitar is at the moment.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm all for used, when I buy used.
> 
> This is just a goofy situation and I don't see why you'd go with the "oops" guitar _which hasn't been recovered yet_ as far as we know, when a refund/rebuild is an option.
> 
> I suppose if you really need a couple hundred bucks off (potentially) or need it ASAP it would be worth it, of course that timeline is uncertain given we have no idea what the situation with the guitar is at the moment.



That logic I'm OK with. If it was a "wait more and take this same guitar at some point when maybe we get it back and don't expect compensation" kind of situation of course that would make zero sense. Take a rebuild or refund. If the option is to take that guitar and be compensated in a significant way (whatever "significant" enough means to the buyer), eeeeh why not?

The replies turning into "run away, that random guy will give you the killer flu with his hands or make sweet sweet love to your guitar so it will no longer be a virgin" - those however I found pretty funny . For all we know the person in question might not even have opened the box and is just too busy to ship it back.


----------



## Choncie

I reached out to Joe the service manager at Kiesel, I asked for a refund or a rebuild. Here is Joes response below. Joe mentions that the other customer called them Right away after discovering the guitar wasn’t his. This is odd since he got it mid day Friday and no one reached out to me. I only found out because I emailed them Monday to find out why I hadn’t received tracking info. I’m not really sure what the real story is.


_“I have been assured by the person who received your guitar that he has not played it or touched it since it arrived. As soon as he opened it up and realized that it wasn’t his guitar he immediately packed it back up in the original case and packaging and notified us. He said that the case was open for less than 5 minutes and it has been back in the case and the original box ever since. He works odd hours so the local FedEx facility isn’t open when he has the chance to take it over there. But he told me that he is off on Saturday (tomorrow) and he plans to drop it off in the morning so we should have it back here by Monday. I would like to encourage you to please hold tight and give us the chance to get your guitar to you. If we discover any flaws, defects, blemishes, anything that is out of the ordinary when we get it back here for inspection then I would say yes by all means let’s do a rebuild. But I won’t know for sure until Monday. 


Even if we were to issue you a refund, it wouldn’t happen today. We would not be able to do any kind of refunds or credits or any type of financial related transactions until the guitar arrives back here and gets checked in properly. And we couldn’t start on a rebuild until after the original guitar comes back and gets processed as a return; so we completely understand your concerns and how this situation has made you feel but we also ask that you work with us to resolve these issues and hold on for the time being so we can make this right for you.


Thank you,



Joe Stone

Service Manager

Kiesel Guitars”

_


----------



## mlp187

Choncie said:


> _Even if we were to issue you a refund, it wouldn’t happen today. We would not be able to do any kind of refunds or credits or any type of financial related transactions until the guitar arrives back here and gets checked in properly...
> _


This is pure bullshit. They can refund your money right now but are choosing not to. 

I can understand Joe's perspective but his quoted statement is not the truth.


----------



## mbardu

Choncie said:


> "Bla bla bla
> _Kiesel Guitars”
> _



Yeah that's pretty underwhelming. It would cost them almost nothing to say "Are you sure you don't want to give the guitar a try? If not we can start processing a refund for you first thing on Monday", especially since a refund request would only be legitimate now that they've acknowledged the instrument has been opened and in possession of someone else. 
The guitar could just go to "guitars in stock" when it comes back and that's it.
instead they put more wait and hassle on the original buyer (we have to wait and check that the guitar is fine etc) as if it's his fault.
I guess this will be one more of those "perplexing" customer service stories that will stick and tarnish the reputation  ...


----------



## erdiablo666

"we also ask that you work with us" is bullshit. You're the one spending the money. You're already "working with them". If you're uncomfortable, you're completely within your rights to demand your ideal solution.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I love certain Kiesel specs and finishes but this bullshit is exactly why I can't support Jeff anymore. They are almost sleazy when it comes to things like this. Make the buyer feel confused, manipulated, guilty... I just can't stand these kinds of games. Good luck, OP whatever you decide to do. I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction asap.


----------



## mpexus

Choncie said:


> _
> 
> Even if we were to issue you a refund, it wouldn’t happen today. We would not be able to do any kind of refunds or credits or any type of financial related transactions until the guitar arrives back here and gets checked in properly.
> _



As soon as I would get this response I would ask for a refund right now.

They fucked up or someone else did: Not your fault

They only refund when they get the guitar and inspect it: Not your fault or responsibility

You are a Customer that already paid for their services and goods. They made a mistake and they are the ones that need to deal with it and fix for you ASAP and ASAP means a refund right now. What if the guitar arrives slightly damaged with dings etc? What if in shipping back and forth it gets beaten or broken even if minimal? What then? Why is that even related to you in the first place? It's not your problem... your only problem now is that you paid for something that is not with you and you are going to get something "used".

This bullshit would never occur in Europe. Our laws prevent this crap and you would had to be refunded right away or given a new item.

So if it was me and even if the guitar was pristine I wouldn't want it at all just for that reply alone.


----------



## lurè

So if the guitar comes back and passes their "quality check" they're sending it back to you?
I can imagine kiesel sending the guitar to you without even taking it out from the case. 

Also I don't understand why they can start a rebuild before the guitar comes back.


----------



## Viginez

let them inspect it and get back to you. you can then inspect it too when it arrives and decide.
i think this will be the fastest way for you to receive a guitar and it will possibly be the perfect one.
why make a drama about it? this doesn't happen every day. you can still return it.


----------



## technomancer

Sounds like complete bullshit... The idea that the guy that received the guitar called them immediately yet the buyer had to contact them days later to find out what happened is ridiculous. So what were they planning to do, never mention it to you and just send the guitar out to you when they got it back?

The idea that they can't refund your money until the guitar THAT THEY SHIPPED TO THE WRONG LOCATION is returned is also insane. So if it comes back damaged does that mean they're going to hold you liable for it and refund you less? Makes no sense at all. At this point if you have decided on a refund and don't want to order another guitar from them I would get the credit card company involved and reverse the charge for the guitar.

Yet another example that could have been easily resolved and been a PR win or at least something that didn't get talked about for the company that makes you go 

Also another example of why, despite looking at their headless models and the Becker numbers guitar, I always end up buying something else. I just can't financially support a company that treats customers this poorly. I look forward to the guy getting slammed in the next Jeff live stream...


----------



## Albake21

I'm kinda with @Viginez with this one. While I'm really not happy with Kiesel and with the way they handled that response was just awful, just waiting for the guitar is the easiest and quickest solution right now. It's your guitar with your specs, just wait it out a little bit longer till Monday and see what they say. From there decide what you want to do. Also I should ask, did your guitar have any option 50s on it?


----------



## josh1

These stories make me want to get a Strandberg instead of a Kiesel.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Just chiming in to say many of us would shut the box and sent it straight back to Kiesel without touching it so getting it but there's also the rare chance it's someone who plays guitar while eating nachos.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Fucking WOW. This brand has been a shit show since morphing from Carvin to Kissel.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Yikes, you'd think with a couple thousand in process orders they'd have the finances to make right on a situation THEY fucked up outright without making a customer wait.



Viginez said:


> let them inspect it and get back to you. you can then inspect it too when it arrives and decide.
> i think this will be the fastest way for you to receive a guitar and it will possibly be the perfect one.
> why make a drama about it? this doesn't happen every day. you can still return it.



Dunno why you're minimizing it, so best case he gets the guitar he paid for that someone else had the joy of unboxing for him. Worst case he has to reject it for a myriad of potential reasons and has to wait on a rebuild?

Luthiers and businesses have the privilege of HAVING their customers, not the other way around. People need to stop glorifying and boot licking for companies they think they're buddies with or #partofthefamily.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Viginez said:


> let them inspect it and get back to you. you can then inspect it too when it arrives and decide.
> i think this will be the fastest way for you to receive a guitar and it will possibly be the perfect one.
> why make a drama about it? this doesn't happen every day. you can still return it.



It's worth mentioning that the US doesn't have the kind of comprehensive buyer protections that the EU has. The only recourse the buyer has is to appeal to the bank that issued the payment card.


----------



## sirbuh

technomancer said:


> The idea that they can't refund your money until the guitar THAT THEY SHIPPED TO THE WRONG LOCATION is returned is also insane. So if it comes back damaged does that mean they're going to hold you liable for it and refund you less? Makes no sense at all. At this point if you have decided on a refund and don't want to order another guitar from them I would get the credit card company involved and reverse the charge for the guitar.



Thats a heck of a risk transfer brownie. 
Once had an order from sweetwater sent to the wrong address, contacted them and they re-sent the order next day to me along with an apology and that was that from my side of the transaction. Unacceptable that kiesel is putting such risk on the buyer.


----------



## Viginez

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's worth mentioning that the US doesn't have the kind of comprehensive buyer protections that the EU has. The only recourse the buyer has is to appeal to the bank that issued the payment card.


i agree, their response is a bit questionable, prolly just want to buy some time.
at least the guitar didn't disappear and they tracked it down. shit happens.
i dunno, for me it's not a biggie to give them a second chance and ship it to me.
btw, i don't care about this brand, it's just not my cup of tea design wise.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

sirbuh said:


> Thats a heck of a risk transfer brownie.
> Once had an order from sweetwater sent to the wrong address, contacted them and they re-sent the order next day to me along with an apology and that was that from my side of the transaction. Unacceptable that kiesel is putting such risk on the buyer.



I've had similar experiences with plenty of companies. Given Kiesel is a semi custom brand, it should be irrelevant and they should take the path the customer wants within reason. Somebody else opening it warrants, at the very least, a partial refund. I'm curious if they'll charge him shipping again. I love Kiesel guitars, but god damn do I not like dealing with Kiesel the people. I've said it a million times before and I'm sure I'll say it again. It's a shame, because they do have some great people working for them. Chris Hong has always been an incredible pleasure to talk to/work with. 

I really want another Vader at some point and I'm frequently scared off of actually placing the order.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

sirbuh said:


> Thats a heck of a risk transfer brownie.
> Once had an order from sweetwater sent to the wrong address, contacted them and they re-sent the order next day to me along with an apology and that was that from my side of the transaction. Unacceptable that kiesel is putting such risk on the buyer.


Agreed. Just another reason to tell Kiesel, and in particular Jeff, to go shit tin bricks.


----------



## mbardu

Viginez said:


> i agree, their response is a bit questionable, prolly just want to buy some time.
> at least the guitar didn't disappear and they tracked it down. shit happens.
> i dunno, for me it's not a biggie to give them a second chance and ship it to me.
> btw, i don't care about this brand, it's just not my cup of tea design wise.



It's a shame, but don't even try to have an opinion that even slightly differs from the group. 
The general level of K-hate around here is so high that if you don't 100% sh*t on Kiesel at every turn, you're now a rabid a fanboy, and any differing opinion is immediately labelled as "Jeff bootlicking".


----------



## budda

mbardu said:


> It's a shame, but don't even try to have an opinion that even slightly differs from the group.
> The general level of K-hate around here is so high that if you don't 100% sh*t on Kiesel at every turn, you're now a rabid a fanboy, and any differing opinion is immediately labelled as "Jeff bootlicking".



I mean that's clearly not the case, because people keep ordering them.

And some of those people have to bump this thread.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> It's a shame, but don't even try to have an opinion that even slightly differs from the group.
> The general level of K-hate around here is so high that if you don't 100% sh*t on Kiesel at every turn, you're now a rabid a fanboy, and any differing opinion is immediately labelled as "Jeff bootlicking".



No, _this post_ is why.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

mbardu said:


> It's a shame, but don't even try to have an opinion that even slightly differs from the group.
> The general level of K-hate around here is so high that if you don't 100% sh*t on Kiesel at every turn, you're now a rabid a fanboy, and any differing opinion is immediately labelled as "Jeff bootlicking".


Ridiculous.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> No, _this post_ is why.



I mean, I get it you're among the most fervent haters.
And it's fine to not like anything Kiesel and jump on any opportunity to bash them if you're here for the lolz. Plus they've clearly done some serious (and some laughable) missteps recently. But at least as a Mod though, I thought you could keep that aside and see that the circle jerk, including insulting random passers-by who didn't even defend Kiesel in the thread is a bit over the top. But bias is hard to ignore I guess.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mbardu said:


> It's a shame, but don't even try to have an opinion that even slightly differs from the group.
> The general level of K-hate around here is so high that if you don't 100% sh*t on Kiesel at every turn, you're now a rabid a fanboy, and any differing opinion is immediately labelled as "Jeff bootlicking".


The kiesel hate in this thread is very,very justified. They've made a bunch of fuckups at their customer's expense and basically handled them in the absolute worst possible way. As much as I love my kiesels, I could never give them another cent with the shit they've been doing the last couple of years.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I mean, I get it you're among the most fervent haters.
> And it's fine to not like anything Kiesel and jump on any opportunity to bash them if you're here for the lolz. Plus they've clearly done some serious (and some laughable) missteps recently. But at least as a Mod though, I thought you could keep that aside and see that the circle jerk, including insulting random passers-by who didn't even defend Kiesel in the thread is a bit over the top. But bias is hard to ignore I guess.



Again, such an absolutely over the top post. 

I've more or less have had a positive outlook overall to Kiesel guitars, but I'm not gonna sugar coat a situation. Dude should get his money back, and based on further word from Kiesel Guitars, I'd say that's definitely the way to go. I'd say the same if it was any other brand with a similar history and product. 

The funny part is when Jeff Kiesel himself tried to run this place like his own personal forum I was supportive of not bouncing the whole brand off of here, and I was also the Mod who cleaned up the other, more positive Kiesel thread so folks could discuss the guitars in peace. But sure, I guess I'm super duper anti-Kiesel Guitars, even when I recommend them to folks and congratulate NGDs.


----------



## mbardu

KnightBrolaire said:


> The kiesel hate in this thread is very,very justified. They've made a bunch of fuckups at their customer's expense and basically handled them in the absolute worst possible way. As much as I love my kiesels, I could never give them another cent with the shit they've been doing the last couple of years.



And that's fine. I'm not defending the fuckups TBH.
But now random people join the thread, not particularly invested in the brand either way, and just being more laid back saying "oh if it were me I could wait a week or two and try the guitar" and they're being insulted as fanboy bootlickers. Well at this point I just wonder if the hysteria is not a bit extreme.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> And that's fine. I'm not defending the fuckups TBH.
> But now random people join the thread, not particularly invested in the brand either way, and just being more laid back saying "oh if it were me I could wait a week or two and try the guitar" and they're being insulted as fanboy bootlickers. Well at this point I just wonder if the hysteria is not a bit extreme.



Can you report/quote the post that's "insulting"? I just read back every post since the dude with problem, and I can't find anything.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> And that's fine. I'm not defending the fuckups TBH.
> But now random people join the thread, not particularly invested in the brand either way, and just being more laid back saying "oh if it were me I could wait a week or two and try the guitar" and they're being insulted as fanboy bootlickers. Well at this point I just wonder if the hysteria is not a bit extreme.



You can just hit reply and tell me that was uncalled for, but you keep referring to boot licking so I'm going to assume you mean my comment.

I said *people *need to stop bootlicking, I didn't tag anyone or direct that comment at anyone in particular. Sounds like you're just trying to drum up some drama, if it offends you so much ask a mod to remove it from my post.

But if we're being specific, it's kind of weird how a very small handful of folks are the only people who disagree when a majority says they dislike how Kiesel handles their CS in situations like these.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> You can just hit reply and tell me that was uncalled for, but you keep referring to boot licking so I'm going to assume you mean my comment.
> 
> I said *people *need to stop bootlicking, I didn't tag anyone or direct that comment at anyone in particular. Sounds like you're just trying to drum up some drama, if it offends you so much ask a mod to remove it from my post.
> 
> But if we're being specific, it's kind of weird how a very small handful of folks are the only people who disagree when a majority says they dislike how Kiesel handles their CS in situations like these.



Thanks for taking the time to reply. Indeed it's the "boot licking" comment that ticked me off.
If you read above, I doubt you will find anyone (and literally I mean *anyone,* certainly not me or the person you went after) who actually defends the CS here. Or if you do find, please point it out to me, I'd be genuinely interested to hear the argument. Yet your reaction is to go straight to the attack and to denouncing boot licking & co (you say you meant to insult people in general, rather than that particular poster- fair enough), which is...to say the least a bit uncalled for. I'll say it again- You did not try to see if the guy in question was actually supporting the brand or not, and In fact there was no glorifying or bootlicking or anything of that sort there. In fact the guy is probably just more laid back and wouldn't mind giving the guitar a try. But it's Kiesel we're talking about, so there has to be this imagined bootlicking or fanboism or Kiesel cult (which I have personally never seen in person) that we have to denounce.

Didn't mean to single you out. But I found it a current example of a pretty common pattern here of going after strawmen thinking *any *differing opinion (even if it's just nuances that don't necessarily defend the brand) is from a rabid fanboy or paid Kiesel shill. Maybe that's just me, but I find that type of knee jerk group reaction way more rabid than the comments of the few people who still don't 100% dislike Kiesel.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I could have probably worded or written my entire comment differently, but I didn't tag the guy I replied to nor did I mention any particular brand. You could take the # and "people" as some kind of directive, but since that's not what I meant I'm going to let that die here.

If you want more detail, I'm referring to sectioned off groups dedicated to single brands both on Facebook and other parts of the internet. Someone will probably repost the situation about shipping the guitar to the wrong customer, and depending on the demographic fanboys could (more like will) absolutely blast the customer for not having patience with the brand and giving them a chance to make it right. Every brand group will do this, and people will inevitably bootlick for a business that does nothing more than provide a service for full price to people.

There's no friendships and family in a customer - business interaction, guys like Jeff need to stop selling the idea that you can buy your way into some kind of loving community when his directions and actions paint otherwise. (You typically don't treat your family or friends like shit when you fuck up). I got hooked up several times on my orders for being a repeated customer and I was treated well, which is exactly why I stanned so hard for them back when I enjoyed the Kiesel brand. Everything was great until it wasn't, and that clearly reminded me that Kiesel and ANY brand has to earn their business, yeah they make great guitars but so do several other brands. What incentive is there in giving a business the benefit of the doubt when their responses and reactions to situations with friction are poor at best, sorry but I don't see it.

I'm past romanticizing brands of any kind anymore, well... besides Peruvian restaurants that specialize in Charbroiled chicken because that is a gift straight from the heavens


----------



## V_man

Kiesel will never be a custom shop. A real custom shop addresses customers with solutions. Kiesel just try to pass the problem to you.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I could have probably worded or written my entire comment differently, but I didn't tag the guy I replied to nor did I mention any particular brand. You could take the # and "people" as some kind of directive, but since that's not what I meant I'm going to let that die here.
> 
> If you want more detail, I'm referring to sectioned off groups dedicated to single brands both on Facebook and other parts of the internet. Someone will probably repost the situation about shipping the guitar to the wrong customer, and depending on the demographic fanboys could (more like will) absolutely blast the customer for not having patience with the brand and giving them a chance to make it right. Every brand group will do this, and people will inevitably bootlick for a business that does nothing more than provide a service for full price to people.



I mean you did quote the guy in your reply right before the section in question, so you'll understand how that can be misleading.
But regardless, and just answer that for me. Why did you feel the need to rise up against bootlicking at that particular moment in this particular thread?
Were people actively defending Kiesel? I looked a few pages back, and the sentiment is pretty unanimous to denounce the CS response. I saw literally 0 boot-licking or brand fanatism. You say it's possible somewhere elsewhere on the internet that people would support the CS and blast the client. Doubt it as well. Again, for either things, I would be happy to be proven wrong if you have some examples.
Yet, the moment someone has a very slightly different opinion here on SSO, not even defending the CS (which is pretty indefensible), but simply "I don't particularly like the brand, but if it were me I'd be patient and give the guitar a try", someone needs to jump on the tribalism/bootlicking/fanboyism and denounce perceived things that did not happen at all in the thread. Why was that relevant?
Nothing personal, had it not been you, it would have been someone else

My point: I'm all against tribalism and brand fanboyism. And here anytime there's Kiesel in the picture, it's the exact behavior we see, except in the opposite direction. It's the epitome of tribalism and group-think, except it's not in favor or defense of a brand, it's just against Kiesel. A couple of posts down from the CS reply, we're already basically at "Fuck Jeff and everything he touches forever and always".

Now- everything about friendships in business and benefit of the doubt? Or romanticizing brands etc? Very same thing. I can't see the context about being on the defensive on that topic. Did anyone ask to give Kiesel the benefit of the doubt here? Or say they were the bestest brand around? Or that they were a family? Absolutely not. Quite the opposite: read the pages before and it's a circle jerk of (some warranted) Kiesel bashing. Yet we have to add that to the pile because it's Kiesel we're talking about. I just don't see where's that's coming from despite knee-jerk anti-Kiesel reaction.


----------



## mbardu

V_man said:


> Kiesel will never be a custom shop. A real custom shop addresses customers with solutions. Kiesel just try to pass the problem to you.



Well I can think of a number of "custom shops" who basically ran out and disappeared with their clients' money, so I'd take Kiesel and iffy customer service anyday over pure theft  . That said, the reason they're not a custom shop is that they won't do any custom shape or truly bespoke options for you.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Commentary doesn't always require insightful reasoning or purpose, so this is alot of drama over an undirected jab that you for some reason felt very strongly about 

Skimming over your post, it seems like we mostly agree so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> My point: I'm all against tribalism and brand fanboyism. And here anytime there's Kiesel in the picture, it's the exact behavior we see, except in the opposite direction. It's the epitome of tribalism and group-think, except it's not in favor or defense of a brand, it's just against Kiesel. A couple of posts down from the CS reply, we're already basically at "Fuck Jeff and everything he touches forever and always".



You don't need to tribalism to explain criticizing a brand with a long history of douche behavior, both in their approach of how they communicate to the community, and in how they handle basic customer service.

People who like cheap semi-customs will always like Kiesel. People who are more turned off when a guy turns a eulogy into a chance to hype up a new product, those people will always hate Kiesel.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> You don't need to tribalism to explain criticizing a brand with a long history of douche behavior, both in their approach of how they communicate to the community, and in how they handle basic customer service.
> 
> People who like cheap semi-customs will always like Kiesel. People who are more turned off when a guy turns a eulogy into a chance to hype up a new product, those people will always hate Kiesel.



Proving yet again my point with some more gratuitous vitriol that's not related at all to the discussion at hand . I'll leave it at that.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Proving yet again my point with some more gratuitous vitriol that's not related at all to the discussion at hand . I'll leave it at that.



Those are just facts, dude. If you think that's gratuitous vitriol, maybe stay off the internet and go play Animal Crossing.


----------



## budda

mbardu said:


> Proving yet again my point with some more gratuitous vitriol that's not related at all to the discussion at hand . I'll leave it at that.



But it is.

.

Why are you so concerned that people hate on shitty company practices, despite a) not defending it and b) having no horse in the race?


----------



## Samark

Has anyone played one of their headless strats?


----------



## spudmunkey

Samark said:


> Has anyone played one of their headless strats?



A couple times, albeit briefly, at NAMM.


----------



## Samark

spudmunkey said:


> A couple times, albeit briefly, at NAMM.



Awesome, thanks. Did it sound/feel like a typical strat?


----------



## mbardu

budda said:


> But it is.
> 
> .
> 
> Why are you so concerned that people hate on shitty company practices, despite a) not defending it and b) having no horse in the race?



I'm not concerned that people hate on shitty practices. 
I'm the first one to denounce the reply from CS a couple of pages back 

I'm strictly pointing out the irony of the group-think from people who raise up in unison against the imagined "Kiesel fanboy" enemy, the supposed (but non-existent) rabid defender of the company that _has _to be proven wrong; while when you look at it the topic is actually very single sided as it is, there is no such enemy, and the well-justified rants against clear issues in CS often turn into over-the-top hate fest and personal attacks over what is still ultimately only a guitar company. And at least a half-way honest one as it is, considering they at least build and ship guitars (often even to the right address actually!  ). The rabidness is not necessarily on the side you'd think. 
Look at the RAN thread next door, some guys are out multi-thousands of dollars on deposits they'll never see again, and the general sentiment is more "oh no, hope the ex owner is OK, poor Ran". The double standards are pretty staggering.
My guess is that it's really the image of that Jeff projects that really makes people irrationally angry.

But it's clear that my point and said irony is lost on the group so I guess I'll give up!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"_


----------



## Bdtunn

Now is it possible to like their guitars without liking Jeff.....dun dun duunnnn


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> _"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"_



Wow what a well argued mind opening answer. Plus it's even a super obscure shakespearean quote?!? By god... I guess with that, when you make such a strong case, there's really no point for anyone arguing even a single point of substance .

Pack it up boys, back to the regular programming of shitting on everything Kiesel as if it were our job.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Wow what a well argued mind opening answer. Plus it's even a super obscure shakespearean quote?!? By god... I guess with that, when you make such a strong case, there's really no point for anyone arguing even a single point of substance .
> 
> Pack it up boys, back to the regular programming of shitting on everything Kiesel as if it were our job.



http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewforum.php?f=1

For those who can't handle people criticizing Kiesel, here you go! Enjoy!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

mbardu said:


> Wow what a well argued mind opening answer. Plus it's even a super obscure shakespearean quote?!? By god... I guess with that, when you make such a strong case, there's really no point for anyone arguing even a single point of substance .
> 
> Pack it up boys, back to the regular programming of shitting on everything Kiesel as if it were our job.


The stung bunghole is strong with this one.


----------



## Cynicanal

He used the quote totally wrong though, unless he was trying to say that mbardu actually hates Kiesel and is just defending them because it's what's socially expected.


----------



## AboutBlank

As someone who works in the same business field in a very similar industry, I especially find the second paragraph in Kiesel's reaction an absolute imposition.

In my opinion, there are three possible proposals:

- An immediate repayment of the full amount

- the plea to wait a reasonable period of time (middle of next week) to receive detailed photos from the company once the guitar is back, to discuss an obligatory appropriate discount and to send the guitar immediately after consultation (if it does not arrive by the agreed deadline, choose between offers 1 and 3)

- the offer for a prioritized and discounted new build

These offers should come of their own accord and immediately, from the fact that the customer should be informed straight away, before he finds out all this himself not to talk at all.

If the company where I work does not provide me with this room for manoeuvre, I would immediately look for another employer, as I cannot do my work according to my ethos under these conditions.

I consider an apology and the request to be allowed to convince with the product and the service as obligatory.


----------



## lurè

Bdtunn said:


> Now is it possible to like their guitars without liking Jeff.....dun dun duunnnn



That's why I have 2 kiesel vader.
I like their guitars and I couldn't care less about Jeff.
Not all people that work there are like him.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jonathan20022 said:


> I could have probably worded or written my entire comment differently, but I didn't tag the guy I replied to nor did I mention any particular brand. You could take the # and "people" as some kind of directive, but since that's not what I meant I'm going to let that die here.
> 
> If you want more detail, I'm referring to sectioned off groups dedicated to single brands both on Facebook and other parts of the internet. Someone will probably repost the situation about shipping the guitar to the wrong customer, and depending on the demographic fanboys could (more like will) absolutely blast the customer for not having patience with the brand and giving them a chance to make it right. Every brand group will do this, and people will inevitably bootlick for a business that does nothing more than provide a service for full price to people.
> 
> There's no friendships and family in a customer - business interaction, guys like Jeff need to stop selling the idea that you can buy your way into some kind of loving community when his directions and actions paint otherwise. (You typically don't treat your family or friends like shit when you fuck up). I got hooked up several times on my orders for being a repeated customer and I was treated well, which is exactly why I stanned so hard for them back when I enjoyed the Kiesel brand. Everything was great until it wasn't, and that clearly reminded me that Kiesel and ANY brand has to earn their business, yeah they make great guitars but so do several other brands. What incentive is there in giving a business the benefit of the doubt when their responses and reactions to situations with friction are poor at best, sorry but I don't see it.
> 
> I'm past romanticizing brands of any kind anymore, well... besides Peruvian restaurants that specialize in Charbroiled chicken because that is a gift straight from the heavens



I dunno man, some families are pretty fucked up.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Bdtunn said:


> Now is it possible to like their guitars without liking Jeff.....dun dun duunnnn



I like my JB200, that i got when it was still Carvin guitars. I think Jeff is a typical California airhead twat from the valley, he's got all the makings of a full-blown valley girl without the annoying voic... err nevermind, he has that too.


----------



## Bdtunn

MatiasTolkki said:


> I like my JB200, that i got when it was still Carvin guitars. I think Jeff is a typical California airhead twat from the valley, he's got all the makings of a full-blown valley girl without the annoying voic... err nevermind, he has that too.



haha 

I honestly believe that he is just playing a WWF character. He embraces it more and more as time goes on, I mean he even got rad tattooed on his arm. He knows how to push buttons and keep people loyal. When I see him post family stuff he is a different person. But who knows that’s my theory haha. and I’ve said it before I just pretend Chris Owes the company and I only deal with him, he has taken exceptional care of me over the years. I had a minor issue that I wasn’t even going to mention but I did and he swung into action, it was impressive. I’ve had some issues with other manufactures that blew me off over some major defects....that’s my happy story with Kiesel, but I still don’t care for Jeff’s online persona(or that thing growing out of his chin)


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Bdtunn said:


> haha
> 
> I honestly believe that he is just playing a WWF character. He embraces it more and more as time goes on, I mean he even got rad tattooed on his arm. He knows how to push buttons and keep people loyal. When I see him post family stuff he is a different person. But who knows that’s my theory haha. and I’ve said it before I just pretend Chris Owes the company and I only deal with him, he has taken exceptional care of me over the years. I had a minor issue that I wasn’t even going to mention but I did and he swung into action, it was impressive. I’ve had some issues with other manufactures that blew me off over some major defects....that’s my happy story with Kiesel, but I still don’t care for Jeff’s online persona(or that thing growing out of his chin)



I'm from california, i know what that cali sunbaked brain looks and sounds like. I agree about Chris though, he's a boss and the coolest dude around.


----------



## Albake21

Bdtunn said:


> haha
> 
> I honestly believe that he is just playing a WWF character. He embraces it more and more as time goes on, I mean he even got rad tattooed on his arm. He knows how to push buttons and keep people loyal. When I see him post family stuff he is a different person. But who knows that’s my theory haha. and I’ve said it before I just pretend Chris Owes the company and I only deal with him, he has taken exceptional care of me over the years. I had a minor issue that I wasn’t even going to mention but I did and he swung into action, it was impressive. I’ve had some issues with other manufactures that blew me off over some major defects....that’s my happy story with Kiesel, but I still don’t care for Jeff’s online persona(or that thing growing out of his chin)


That's the thing. You can hate Jeff all you want as a businessman and I fully understand that. But when you actually talk to him face to face and see what he's actually like outside of his internet persona, he's actually a genuine guy. He seems like a great father and a nice guy to be around outside of the business. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I will absolutely defend the dude outside of Kiesel Guitars.


----------



## gunch

I just think he needs to adapt a lower profile and rehab his image a little and then maybe people won’t be so spears up when his name is evoked 

I miss when Carvin was bagged as being boring but reliable and quietly dignified


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> I'm not concerned that people hate on shitty practices.
> I'm the first one to denounce the reply from CS a couple of pages back
> 
> I'm strictly pointing out the irony of the group-think from people who raise up in unison against the imagined "Kiesel fanboy" enemy, the supposed (but non-existent) rabid defender of the company that _has _to be proven wrong; while when you look at it the topic is actually very single sided as it is, there is no such enemy, and the well-justified rants against clear issues in CS often turn into over-the-top hate fest and personal attacks over what is still ultimately only a guitar company. And at least a half-way honest one as it is, considering they at least build and ship guitars (often even to the right address actually!  ). The rabidness is not necessarily on the side you'd think.
> Look at the RAN thread next door, some guys are out multi-thousands of dollars on deposits they'll never see again, and the general sentiment is more "oh no, hope the ex owner is OK, poor Ran". The double standards are pretty staggering.
> My guess is that it's really the image of that Jeff projects that really makes people irrationally angry.
> 
> But it's clear that my point and said irony is lost on the group so I guess I'll give up!



It's pretty clear you don't get out much. The Kiesel FB group is pure hilarity with how much they defend Kiesel, no matter what. 

Kiesel could 100% fix their image if A. JeffBro took a lower profile position, and B. they got someone to work in customer service.


----------



## budda

Vote with your wallet


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Jeff said:


> It's pretty clear you don't get out much. The Kiesel FB group is pure hilarity with how much they defend Kiesel, no matter what.
> 
> Kiesel could 100% fix their image if A. JeffBro took a lower profile position, and B. they got someone to work in customer service.



To be fair, should he really WANT to change if he has this huge cult of people following after him defending him at every turn? He makes good money acting how he does, so I don't see a ton of incentive for him to change. I'm in the boat with people who love the guitars, but dislike Jeff's personality. I'm also in the boat with people who praise Chris. I bought two guitars through him and he was amazing and accommodating both times. It's kind of that whole cancel culture thing... I REALLY don't like the idea of putting money in Jeff's pocket, but at the same time if I just outright boycott the brand because he acts like a total turd, then I'm taking the money out of Chris' pockets too. 

I'm a little hard for cash in recent times so I'm not in the market for anything, but when I am I'm heavily considering a replacement Vader. Better believe I'll get in touch with Chris if that time ever comes. 

And therein lies the issue, imo. I'll deal with an obnoxious company if the person taking care of me treats me with respect and proper customer service skills. If Jeff didn't have people like Chris working for him, he never would've seen a dime out of me.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> It's pretty clear you don't get out much. The Kiesel FB group is pure hilarity with how much they defend Kiesel, no matter what.
> 
> Kiesel could 100% fix their image if A. JeffBro took a lower profile position, and B. they got someone to work in customer service.



I know this all too well, when the 12 pole piece pups were discontinued, and my raging on them got me banned because i was so angry about it.


----------



## lurè

Like the first step to Kiesel image fix would be shutting down that cringefest of FB group.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

lurè said:


> Like the first step to Kiesel image fix would be shutting down that cringefest of FB group.



Jeff loves the penis cancer you can spread from that crap.


----------



## spudmunkey

MatiasTolkki said:


> I know this all too well, when the 12 pole piece pups were discontinued, and my raging on them got me banned because i was so angry about it.



When you stand on what is effectively a company's front porch (since their social media presense is 99% of their marketing, outside of the print ads they run in Vintage Guitar magazine) and throw personal insults at the company's VP/3rd generation...what the fuck did you expect?  The facebook group is moderated by Kiesel staff (including Chris Hong).

BTW, they *finally* removed the M pickups from the website, nearly 2.5 years later after giving a heads up that they weren't going to be offering them after they sold out.


----------



## ElRay

olejason said:


> You can guarantee he's had his tallywacker all over the guitar. I wouldn't want it back.


This, and crop-dusting, are Option-50 and make the guitar non-returnable.


----------



## Jeff

Señor Voorhees said:


> To be fair, should he really WANT to change if he has this huge cult of people following after him defending him at every turn? He makes good money acting how he does, so I don't see a ton of incentive for him to change. I'm in the boat with people who love the guitars, but dislike Jeff's personality. I'm also in the boat with people who praise Chris. I bought two guitars through him and he was amazing and accommodating both times. It's kind of that whole cancel culture thing... I REALLY don't like the idea of putting money in Jeff's pocket, but at the same time if I just outright boycott the brand because he acts like a total turd, then I'm taking the money out of Chris' pockets too.
> 
> I'm a little hard for cash in recent times so I'm not in the market for anything, but when I am I'm heavily considering a replacement Vader. Better believe I'll get in touch with Chris if that time ever comes.
> 
> And therein lies the issue, imo. I'll deal with an obnoxious company if the person taking care of me treats me with respect and proper customer service skills. If Jeff didn't have people like Chris working for him, he never would've seen a dime out of me.



He may have no incentive to change, but that’s ultimately a short-term goal. If he wants to keep growing the brand, he’s going to have to stop being Jeff-Bro. Or not.....and lose sales, like mine. Lots o’ good options out there these days.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hey @Choncie, any update?


----------



## Albake21

Jeff said:


> He may have no incentive to change, but that’s ultimately a short-term goal. If he wants to keep growing the brand, he’s going to have to stop being Jeff-Bro. Or not.....and lose sales, like mine. Lots o’ good options out there these days.


Their sales have been growing and growing ever since Jeff took over with no stopping in site. Losing a sale here and there is like pennies to them right now.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> Their sales have been growing and growing ever since Jeff took over with no stopping in site. Losing a sale here and there is like pennies to them right now.



He's even hinted at wanting to cap sales at around 4,000. So either that means stopping to take in new orders in November or December (which he's actually hinted at), or of course using pricing to modulate volume.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> He's even hinted at wanting to cap sales at around 4,000. So either that means stopping to take in new orders in November or December (which he's actually hinted at), or of course using pricing to modulate volume.



When he hinted at that did it sound like, 

"Hey guys, just wanting you to know that we've been super busy here and even thinking about capping sales at around 4,000. We're coming up on that pretty fast, so you know, if you've been thinking about speccing something out or placing an order, now's a good time to pickup the phone and call 1-800-KIESELGUITARSCARVINGUITARS. That's 1-800-KIESELGUITARSCARVINGUITARS. We'd love to make your dream guitar a reality. 1-800-KIESELGUITARSCARVINGUITARS."


----------



## Albake21

narad said:


> When he hinted at that did it sound like,
> 
> "Hey guys, just wanting you to know that we've been super busy here and even thinking about capping sales at around 4,000. We're coming up on that pretty fast, so you know, if you've been thinking about speccing something out or placing an order, now's a good time to pickup the phone and call 1-800-KIESELGUITARSCARVINGUITARS. That's 1-800-KIESELGUITARSCARVINGUITARS. We'd love to make your dream guitar a reality. 1-800-KIESELGUITARSCARVINGUITARS."


100% this. Their sales are great, but there's no doubt that was an ad for even more sales.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Albake21 said:


> 100% this. Their sales are great, but there's no doubt that was an ad for even more sales.



Or an excuse for a price increase.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've made this comment before, but I don't get this place. Ha! SSO shits on Daemoness with their 5 year waiting period as being a sign that they don't know how to run their businesses. So a company has only 2 options: increasing production, or reducing demand. I "get" not wanting to grow any bigger...so of course then you raise prices to control that, and you keep doing it to keep wait times below 6 months. Either way, you can bring in more revenue, but one way gives you more margin/profit with less effort and you don't have to worry about building a new factory, somehow finding more people in the area to hire or opening a 2nd remote factory somewhere that you have less control over. *shrugs* Am I crazy?


----------



## Choncie

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hey @Choncie, any update?


I got an email that the guitar is now in route to me, should be here on Thursday. I thought about it all weekend and decided to give it a shot. I’m not happy with the way they dealt with this issue. It’s too bad Chris Hong doesn’t own the company and set policy. 

I played my strat all weekend, didn’t touch any of the 3 Kiesels I already have lol. Such a love hate with Kiesel.


----------



## Choncie

Oh and Kiesel also mailed me a Sweatshirt and credited me back the shipping fee.


----------



## narad

spudmunkey said:


> I've made this comment before, but I don't get this place. Ha! SSO shits on Daemoness with their 5 year waiting period as being a sign that they don't know how to run their businesses. So a company has only 2 options: increasing production, or reducing demand. I "get" not wanting to grow any bigger...so of course then you raise prices to control that, and you keep doing it to keep wait times below 6 months. Either way, you can bring in more revenue, but one way gives you more margin/profit with less effort and you don't have to worry about building a new factory, somehow finding more people in the area to hire or opening a 2nd remote factory somewhere that you have less control over. *shrugs* Am I crazy?



Who on SSO shits on Daemoness? That was like one whiney guy.


----------



## prlgmnr

spudmunkey said:


> SSO shits on Daemoness with their 5 year waiting period as being a sign that they don't know how to run their businesses.


I must have missed this.


----------



## Jeff

Albake21 said:


> Their sales have been growing and growing ever since Jeff took over with no stopping in site. Losing a sale here and there is like pennies to them right now.



yup. Short term goal.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I remember one recent thread about Daemoness, but wasn't that because the guitar was fucked up or something?


----------



## spudmunkey

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I remember one recent thread about Daemoness, but wasn't that because the guitar was fucked up or something?



That was the thread where it was mentioned, yes (linked below). I remember another conversation somewhere else, but can't find it at the moment:
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-daemoness-cimmerian.338710/#post-5060109


----------



## InCasinoOut

Choncie said:


> Oh and Kiesel also mailed me a Sweatshirt and credited me back the shipping fee.


wow cool a sweatshirt and a refund only on shipping!


----------



## narad

InCasinoOut said:


> wow cool a sweatshirt and a refund only on shipping!



It should say "I ordered a Kiesel Guitar / Carvin Guitar, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!"


----------



## InCasinoOut

narad said:


> It should say "I ordered a Kiesel Guitar / Carvin Guitar, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!"


God damn that's brilliant! lmao


----------



## Tisca

"Dear Jeff Kiesel..." by: KDH


----------



## MatiasTolkki

wow KDH is going for em LOL


----------



## soliloquy

Tisca said:


> "Dear Jeff Kiesel..." by: KDH




I knew he was missing a few marbles, for which, i stopped following him a few years ago. Evidently its gotten significantly worse. a real shame. Thank you for showing this as I was sort of considering giving them another chance


----------



## narad

I can't believe that customer's apology. Or more over, that Jeff would be such an ass to the kind of person who loves Kiesel so much as to write that apology. If you're fortunate enough to have a customer like that, treat them right.


----------



## soliloquy

narad said:


> I can't believe that customer's apology. Or more over, that Jeff would be such an ass to the kind of person who loves Kiesel so much as to write that apology. If you're fortunate enough to have a customer like that, treat them right.



Many years ago, like maybe over a decade ago, there was someone named Rob_l that was buying carvin guitars every other day, it seemed. I think Carvin did end up sending him a guitar or two for free. Not sure what happened to him, or that relationship after


----------



## MatiasTolkki

I think that apology is a classic case of stockholm syndrome.


----------



## prlgmnr

The Kiesel "roasting" situation for some reason puts me in mind of.... you know in Mick Foley's autobiography where he works on the chicken stall making "broasted" chicken, which was chicken part boiled and part roasted in order to impersonate fried chicken? That.


----------



## spudmunkey

soliloquy said:


> Many years ago, like maybe over a decade ago, there was someone named Rob_l that was buying carvin guitars every other day, it seemed. I think Carvin did end up sending him a guitar or two for free. Not sure what happened to him, or that relationship after



He simply shifted focus to collecting firearms, let his website for his music project die, and sold off a number of instruments. I may be misremembering, there also might have been a cancer scare in there somewhere.

I believe this was one they sent him:






At one point, dude was having almost 3 guitars purchased from the in-stock, overnight shipping, every week....for weeks on end.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> He simply shifted focus to collecting firearms, let his website for his music project die, and sold off a number of instruments. I may be misremembering, there also might have been a cancer scare in there somewhere.
> 
> I believe this was one they sent him:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At one point, dude was having almost 3 guitars purchased from the in-stock, overnight shipping, every week....for weeks on end.



I know he started working as a contractor with his local PD. He was a veteran and always into firearms. I remember having a conversation with him about it years and years ago on the old Ibanez board. 

He went through phases with guitars. Last one before he went mostly dark on the web were Japanese Market ESPs and higher end Edwards models. 

I know a guy who lives on the same street as Rob, or at least did. He said it was a constant stream of UPS deliveries. 

Rob was always a good dude though. Told it how it was, and was remarkably humble. Loved talking about gear, and guns, and was just overall really cool. I know he was a cancer survivor, and it always loomed over him. I really hope he's well.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

I get the feeling this is sort of the breaking point for Kiesel, and that from here on in it's all going to be downhill for them.


----------



## Jzbass25

Jeff has always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason but jeeze what a douchebag with that video, guess I'll forget about ordering a guitar from them


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Tisca said:


> "Dear Jeff Kiesel..." by: KDH





Wow, what a fucking cunt. Was looking to spend my rebate on a replacement for the Vader I had to sell when I moved, but that ain't happening now. (or ever as far as I'm concerned... Good guitar or not, I don't want that prick's name anywhere near me.) Guy's giving me super strong S7G Jim (I think his name was, correct me if I'm wrong) vibes. He can fuck right off with his holier-than-thou attitude.


----------



## Jeff

Señor Voorhees said:


> Wow, what a fucking cunt. Was looking to spend my rebate on a replacement for the Vader I had to sell when I moved, but that ain't happening now. (or ever as far as I'm concerned... Good guitar or not, I don't want that prick's name anywhere near me.) Guy's giving me super strong S7G Jim (I think his name was, correct me if I'm wrong) vibes. He can fuck right off with his holier-than-thou attitude.



JFC Jeff is a shit whistle. Daddy would do well to rein in his boy, and get a qualified CS team.


----------



## Jake

I've said it countless times here. I own plenty of high end guitars (Blackmachine, Mayones, Skervesen, PRS Core Models, Aristides, Jackson USA) and I will never be ordering a Kiesel as long as Jeff is in the position that he is. It's ridiculous at this point and I am at the point where I honestly hope they fail. He's such a dick to loyal customers and it's insane.


----------



## Bdtunn

Jeeezuzzzz did he flex????????? 
So glad I didn’t pull the trigger on a Zeus.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

So I’ve been saving money for a Black Friday build. But. The more time passes the more Jeff seems hell bent on trying to talk me out of it. Seriously, someone needs to let him know to step off the social media and just work more. I assume this behavior of his is going to start harming his sales eventually. If it hasn’t already. Watching him on live-streams is cringeworthy. I have bought three new Carvins before the change. So I’m not new to the company. But I’m starting to consider other options. Balaguer tartarus!?! That guitar looks awesome. Curious to see @KnightBrolaire NGD and his thoughts on his metallic red pointy beast!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

even though they turn out great guitars (I still own 3 and had around 9) ime, the customer service horror stories and jeff's constant narcissism/douchebaggery makes me want to never give them another cent.
I talked my cousin out of buying a guitar from them just by explaining some of the shit jeff has pulled.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

KnightBrolaire said:


> even though they turn out great guitars ime, the customer service horror stories and jeff's constant narcissism/douchebaggery makes me want to never give them another cent.
> I talked my cousin out of buying a guitar from them just by explaining some of the shit jeff has pulled.



That KDH vid is going to be the final nail in his coffin, I should think. Yes, they're MIA, and I can understand the allure of that, but given the sheer number of options available today I just don't see how Kiesel can compete with an owner who regularly comes across as a meth'd-out dirtbag when similar quality and superior customer service is only a click away for anyone today.

And yeah, I'm eyeing Balaguer too just like everyone else here now.


----------



## soliloquy

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Balaguer tartarus!?! That guitar looks awesome. Curious to see @KnightBrolaire NGD and his thoughts on his metallic red pointy beast!



i'm strongly considering an Astra. Not sure why i'm not seeing too many reviews on it yet. not sure what other custom companies exist out there.
Agile, from time to time, does custom runs
Black Water Guitars
Warmoth

beyond that, I'm not too aware of what guitar companies are doing custom work


----------



## KnightBrolaire

soliloquy said:


> i'm strongly considering an Astra. Not sure why i'm not seeing too many reviews on it yet. not sure what other custom companies exist out there.
> Agile, from time to time, does custom runs
> Black Water Guitars
> Warmoth
> 
> beyond that, I'm not too aware of what guitar companies are doing custom work


astra just isn't a big seller for balaguer from what I've seen.

black water effectively doesn't exist anymore. aaron doesn't seem to care about building anymore.
warmoth isn't really custom, same with agile.

there are plenty of smaller full/semicustom shops out there (padalka, oni, carillion daemoness, waghorn, knightro, TK instruments, tw smith, jillard, agape, reichardt, goliath, kxk, etc)


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Doesn't seem that the Kiesel intolerance on SSO has hurt Jeff at all. As long as social-media abounds with nut-swingers, he'll likely continue to prosper. It's a shame but the douche-bag guitar community continues to thrive... and Jeff is the perfect guy to represent. My Ultra V7 was a nice guitar but selling it felt almost liberating.


----------



## mlp187

Great news everybody - i'm one of the privileged who continues working (at home), thus, according to JK, I AM A MAN! Now I know, and so do you. Chicks, beer, and football, Fuck yeah!


----------



## DeathbyDesign

I ordered a Vader 7 with luminlays back when they started offering them (2015 I think). I like the guitar and it is currently played the most in my collection. I have thought about ordering another guitar from Kiesel off and on over the last 2 years or so but am always reminded why I shouldn't. Customer service sounds like a nightmare depending on who you talk to that day and blasting people on FB/IG live is a childish way to try and fire up your fanatics against someone. 

I too work at home and can now be considered a *MAN *by the Kiesel Standards of Manliness for 2020. I will make sure to let my fiancee know that it took a while but I can boast about this title now and will be expecting a plaque from Kiesel in the mail.


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> astra just isn't a big seller for balaguer from what I've seen.
> 
> black water effectively doesn't exist anymore. aaron doesn't seem to care about building anymore.
> warmoth isn't really custom, same with agile.
> 
> there are plenty of smaller full/semicustom shops out there (padalka, oni, carillion daemoness, waghorn, knightro, TK instruments, tw smith, jillard, agape, reichardt, goliath, kxk, etc)



jillard doesn't get enough love. his shapes and aesthetic are awesome. too bad he only seems to build when he feels like it.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

diagrammatiks said:


> jillard doesn't get enough love. his shapes and aesthetic are awesome. too bad he only seems to build when he feels like it.


I love most of his work, especially the empress shape (still kills me I didn't buy that elephant inlay one). I think a headless with some design aspects of the empress would be fucking killer


----------



## maliciousteve

soliloquy said:


> Many years ago, like maybe over a decade ago, there was someone named Rob_l that was buying carvin guitars every other day, it seemed. I think Carvin did end up sending him a guitar or two for free. Not sure what happened to him, or that relationship after



That was Rob Lane. Nice guy and had an awesome collection of Carvins. I think he was ill at some point? seemed to just disappear off this board though.


----------



## josh1

Glad I didn't spend my money on a Kiesel. What an utter douchebag.


----------



## spudmunkey

maliciousteve said:


> That was Rob Lane. Nice guy and had an awesome collection of Carvins. I think he was ill at some point? seemed to just disappear off this board though.



I thought his last name was Lavigne (might have the spelling wrong).


----------



## maliciousteve

spudmunkey said:


> I thought his last name was Lavigne (might have the spelling wrong).



Yeah my mistake, Rob Levene


----------



## lurè

Love my two Vader but he's such a douchebag.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I watched the KDH video as Id not seen the Kiesel instagram feed, and Jeff Kiesel reminds me of a high school school bully (who had to be kept back a year despite his vast amounts of common sense). He only needs to sell 4000 guitars a year to fill his order book and to some guys, being part of the JeffBroSquad coupled with Kiesel's flashy options is enough to make things work. I bet for every potential sale Jeff loses the company with his JeffBroDude attitude he makes another 2 from guys who want to be just like him. Y'know, real men, who flex, but don't whine.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

High Plains Drifter said:


> Doesn't seem that the Kiesel intolerance on SSO has hurt Jeff at all. As long as social-media abounds with nut-swingers, he'll likely continue to prosper. It's a shame but the douche-bag guitar community continues to thrive... and Jeff is the perfect guy to represent. My Ultra V7 was a nice guitar but selling it felt almost liberating.



thats how i felt when i ditched my E-II SV. I absolutely hate ESP (not the guitars, but the way the company works) and owning one always felt dirty. When i sold it, I felt so much better that i didnt have it anymore.


----------



## josh1

MatiasTolkki said:


> thats how i felt when i ditched my E-II SV. I absolutely hate ESP (not the guitars, but the way the company works) and owning one always felt dirty. When i sold it, I felt so much better that i didnt have it anymore.


What did ESP do? Sorry, I haven't heard about this.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

josh1 said:


> What did ESP do? Sorry, I haven't heard about this.



I know this is a bit off topic but ill jsut give you the quick easy answer, then we can go back to bashing Jeff:

Here in Japan, it's basically ESP, Fender or Gibson. No other maker really has any decent foothold here, because ESP runs MI Japan and they funnel all of their students right into using their guitars. Big Boss stores carry very little of any other maker outside of their own brands, and when MI schools are next to Big Boss stores, they basically brainwash people into using their stuff. Then I met the former drummer of Amon Amarth (frederik) some time ago, and he said ESP basically sent the bass player like 5 free basses, to try to sway him to become an ESP artist. IIRC the bassist turned down ESP, but he got like 5 free basses, because ESP was basically trying to bribe him to join them. That sort of business practice REALLY bothers the hell out of me, which is why I absolutely despise ESP.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

josh1 said:


> What did ESP do? Sorry, I haven't heard about this.



Never take Mati seriously. It's like a rule of thumb around here.


----------



## xzacx

MatiasTolkki said:


> Then I met the former drummer of Amon Amarth (frederik) some time ago, and he said ESP basically sent the bass player like 5 free basses, to try to sway him to become an ESP artist. IIRC the bassist turned down ESP, but he got like 5 free basses, because ESP was basically trying to bribe him to join them. That sort of business practice REALLY bothers the hell out of me, which is why I absolutely despise ESP.



This has to be a joke, right? He got five free basses because ESP wanted to sign him as an artist, he turned them down, and therefore ESP is engaging in some kind of shady business practice? I'm really not following this logic.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

xzacx said:


> This has to be a joke, right? He got five free basses because ESP wanted to sign him as an artist, he turned them down, and therefore ESP is engaging in some kind of shady business practice? I'm really not following this logic.



If anything, if ESP let him keep the basses, then that's actually fucking cool of them. 

And yeah, that's common as shit. Of course some companies will send you free shit to convince you to join. It's not just ESP.


----------



## Alberto7

Carl Kolchak said:


> I get the feeling this is sort of the breaking point for Kiesel, and that from here on in it's all going to be downhill for them.



People have been saying this ever since Jeff took over and the horror stories began, and their popularity has nothing but skyrocketed. Anyone these days that knows more than one thing about guitars probably knows about Kiesel. Sad, because I hate Jeff, and I am so happy I own an instrument that says "Carvin" instead of "Kiesel".


Also, is it just me or is Jeff Kiesel kinda like the Joe Exotic of guitars...?


----------



## Snarpaasi

Alberto7 said:


> Also, is it just me or is Jeff Kiesel kinda like the Joe Exotic of guitars...?



Hahahah now that you say it.....  But who's Carole?


----------



## spudmunkey

...


----------



## Dark Aegis

Snarpaasi said:


> Hahahah now that you say it.....  But who's Carole?


 Gibson.


----------



## SamSam

MatiasTolkki said:


> Then I met the former drummer of Amon Amarth (frederik) some time ago, and he said ESP basically sent the bass player like 5 free basses, to try to sway him to become an ESP artist. IIRC the bassist turned down ESP, but he got like 5 free basses, because ESP was basically trying to bribe him to join them. That sort of business practice REALLY bothers the hell out of me, which is why I absolutely despise ESP.



Pretty sure this is fairly standard practice for companies who are really keen to sign someone? The likes of Vai etc get gear thrown at them every day of the week for their endorsements. In 2020 it's the youtube gang I guess.


----------



## Restarted

Yeah if anything that's a positive thing. Doesn't Kiesel make endorsed people return the guitars if the endorsement falls through  like what happened to Joss Allen?


----------



## Merrekof

SamSam said:


> In 2020 it's the youtube gang I guess.


2020? The youtube gang is already getting free stuff for several years..

My wife watches youtube vids about make up and stuff. You have no idea how many make up those youtubers get sent every week!
Same with clothing, shoes, home decoration, baby stuff,...


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Alberto7 said:


> People have been saying this ever since Jeff took over and the horror stories began, and their popularity has nothing but skyrocketed. Anyone these days that knows more than one thing about guitars probably knows about Kiesel. Sad, because I hate Jeff, and I am so happy I own an instrument that says "Carvin" instead of "Kiesel".
> 
> 
> Also, is it just me or is Jeff Kiesel kinda like the Joe Exotic of guitars...?



What's different here is that you have this cringe-inducing viral "flex" vid that everyone's going to be meme'ing mercilessly off of now. But don't get me wrong, I don't think this is going to sink Kiesel in the short term. The long term though... This is where Jeff's narcissicide will be Kiesel's eventual undoing, at least as I see it. How so? Well as Jeff clearly equates his sales numbers as an expression of personal "virility" it should go without saying then that he'll have to keep pumping those guitars out in ever-increasing numbers in order to keep his id monster well fed. The long term consequences of this will be 1) more flawed guitars getting out, as his workers struggle to get them out on time, and 2) the market will get flooded, which will force price drops, which will then force more corner-cutting, etc. 

I bought my Kiesel used, because I literally found one used on Reverb that was spec'd out to close to 95% of what I would've ordered myself if I were buying new, but at a $400 discount. So that's +/- 1.6K Jeff never got from me. So what you say? Jeff probably blows that on a single dinner at NAMM. True, but as that flex vid goes viral it could very well influence enough people who were otherwise contemplating a buy from him to think twice about it and go instead with a company who'll stand behind their guitars 100%.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Folks, in general, have a high tolerance for bullshit when they're getting something out of it. 

Folks will work a shitty job because the money is good, or stay in an awful relationship because the sex is good, or eat garbage because it's delicious. Folks will get guitars from Kiesel because they're good guitars for a good price with good options. 

The world keeps spinning.


----------



## fps

Carl Kolchak said:


> What's different here is that you have this cringe-inducing viral "flex" vid that everyone's going to be meme'ing mercilessly off of now. But don't get me wrong, I don't think this is going to sink Kiesel in the short term. The long term though... This is where Jeff's narcissicide will be Kiesel's eventual undoing, at least as I see it. How so? Well as Jeff clearly equates his sales numbers as an expression of personal "virility" it should go without saying then that he'll have to keep pumping those guitars out in ever-increasing numbers in order to keep his id monster well fed. The long term consequences of this will be 1) more flawed guitars getting out, as his workers struggle to get them out on time, and 2) the market will get flooded, which will force price drops, which will then force more corner-cutting, etc.
> 
> I bought my Kiesel used, because I literally found one used on Reverb that was spec'd out to close to 95% of what I would've ordered myself if I were buying new, but at a $400 discount. So that's +/- 1.6K Jeff never got from me. So what you say? Jeff probably blows that on a single dinner at NAMM. True, but as that flex vid goes viral it could very well influence enough people who were otherwise contemplating a buy from him to think twice about it and go instead with a company who'll stand behind their guitars 100%.



There's some bizarre stuff in this thread, this is an example of a slightly unhealthy overthinking of things.


----------



## Jake

Restarted said:


> Yeah if anything that's a positive thing. Doesn't Kiesel make endorsed people return the guitars if the endorsement falls through  like what happened to Joss Allen?


I can confirm this is one of their practices from friends of mine who were "endorsed"


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jake said:


> I can confirm this is one of their practices from friends of mine who were "endorsed"



That is not at all unique to Kiesel.


----------



## lewis

Restarted said:


> Yeah if anything that's a positive thing. Doesn't Kiesel make endorsed people return the guitars if the endorsement falls through  like what happened to Joss Allen?


wheres the complete story on that?
Is it on his youtube channel?

I would love to check out the ins and outs on it ending and them demanding all the guitars back. Haha


----------



## Albake21

lewis said:


> wheres the complete story on that?
> Is it on his youtube channel?
> 
> I would love to check out the ins and outs on it ending and them demanding all the guitars back. Haha


This is 100% true, they do demand the guitars back if you do not end up staying with them. There have been multiple accounts of this, but most aren't public about it for obvious reasons. I know Robby from The Contortionist tried Kiesel for a bit and Cam told me he had to ship the guitar back when he stayed with Ibanez.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Well to be fair there was that non endorsed artist who even refused to give back a loaner guitar.


----------



## Alberto7

Snarpaasi said:


> Hahahah now that you say it.....  But who's Carole?



The SSO forums?


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> I know this is a bit off topic but ill jsut give you the quick easy answer, then we can go back to bashing Jeff:
> 
> Here in Japan, it's basically ESP, Fender or Gibson. No other maker really has any decent foothold here, because ESP runs MI Japan and they funnel all of their students right into using their guitars. Big Boss stores carry very little of any other maker outside of their own brands, and when MI schools are next to Big Boss stores, they basically brainwash people into using their stuff. Then I met the former drummer of Amon Amarth (frederik) some time ago, and he said ESP basically sent the bass player like 5 free basses, to try to sway him to become an ESP artist. IIRC the bassist turned down ESP, but he got like 5 free basses, because ESP was basically trying to bribe him to join them. That sort of business practice REALLY bothers the hell out of me, which is why I absolutely despise ESP.



 what do you expect them to do? “We’d like you to endorse our brand. We’ll send you a few basses. If you don’t like them, you’re obligated to send them back, ASAP.” 

yeah dude, not how it works.


----------



## spudmunkey

Restarted said:


> Yeah if anything that's a positive thing. Doesn't Kiesel make endorsed people return the guitars if the endorsement falls through  like what happened to Joss Allen?



Joss signed a contract to exclusively play Kiesel. Joss decided he wanted to break the contract and admitted that it was a mistake since he has a gear review channel. Kiesel bought back the guitars that Joss purchased at his endorsed-artist discount.


----------



## Edika

But what if he wanted to keep them? Was there a clause in the contract that forced him to pay the full price if he left the endorsement or had to sell them back to Kiesel? Or was it avoid the mighty Jeff use his minions to pester him on his YouTube channel? Because I'm sure Jeff would spin it like Joss stole the guitars if he kept them.


----------



## spudmunkey

Edika said:


> But what if he wanted to keep them? Was there a clause in the contract that forced him to pay the full price if he left the endorsement or had to sell them back to Kiesel? Or was it avoid the mighty Jeff use his minions to pester him on his YouTube channel? Because I'm sure Jeff would spin it like Joss stole the guitars if he kept them.



Amusingly that was exactly the conversation 50 pages ago in the Carvin/Kiesel thread, and then Joss explained what happened, and most everybody was like, "Oh...he backed out of the contract? And of course kiesel wouldn't want people to join for a couple of months to get discounted guitars then jump ship... Seems reasonable to me."


----------



## Edika

Well if it was for such a short period of time maybe there's some validity to that statement. However other brands do the same thing right? Depending on the level of endorsement they usually provide discounted instruments. I'm not sure if there's a specific time clause to the endorsement contract and what would be the penalties for breaking a contract but I don't think they would ask the guitars back or buy them back to avoid people getting endorsements to get discounted guitars.

And discussing that argument I believe any guitarist starting to play guitar dreams of getting endorsed by brands and consider those as privileges not something they're entitled too. I don't think anyone would use it as a ploy to get discounted guitars, as news like that travel really fast and could damage someone's reputation in the industry, so to me this sounds like a stupid argument. Unless Kiesel is throwing endorsements to any chump that can hold a guitar, if so I'd like heavily discounted guitars please and I'll stay with them forever lol!

Man when Jeff came aboard and had all these ideas of new models more ERG's and expanding the brand I was really excited. But boy what a repulsive person he turned out to be.


----------



## Thaeon

Just watched the video. If I were an artist, I would be bailing at this point. I wouldn't want my name associated with someone that isn't willing to take care of the people whose money they subsist off of. Its certainly a flex. And its undeniably misguided. You'd never catch John Suhr, or Tom Anderson, or Sterling Ball treating a customer like that. They all bend over backwards for customers. John Suhr fired his head CS guy for shit like this. Granted, it was the guy's treatment of an artist that got him fired. Still. If your customers can't trust you and you continuously do things to cause increased mistrust, you're going to alienate all of your patronage. I lost interest when Jeff started ranting about being the best built stuff out there. I'd played Suhr, Anderson, Alembic, Ormsby, BFRs, and Conklins at that point. It's literally untrue. Might be the best option for someone based on specs. But, certainly not the best quality instruments. I'll pick a company with amazing customer service and some QC issues, over a company with less QC issues and shit customer service any day of the week. The other builders I mentioned have less QC issues that I know of and always err on the side of the customer to my knowledge. Kiesel has BOTH of the mentioned brand issues. I won't give them any of my cash again.


----------



## lewis

Thaeon said:


> Just watched the video. If I were an artist, I would be bailing at this point. I wouldn't want my name associated with someone that isn't willing to take care of the people whose money they subsist off of. Its certainly a flex. And its undeniably misguided. You'd never catch John Suhr, or Tom Anderson, or Sterling Ball treating a customer like that. They all bend over backwards for customers. John Suhr fired his head CS guy for shit like this. Granted, it was the guy's treatment of an artist that got him fired. Still. If your customers can't trust you and you continuously do things to cause increased mistrust, you're going to alienate all of your patronage. I lost interest when Jeff started ranting about being the best built stuff out there. I'd played Suhr, Anderson, Alembic, Ormsby, BFRs, and Conklins at that point. It's literally untrue. Might be the best option for someone based on specs. But, certainly not the best quality instruments. I'll pick a company with amazing customer service and some QC issues, over a company with less QC issues and shit customer service any day of the week. The other builders I mentioned have less QC issues that I know of and always err on the side of the customer to my knowledge. Kiesel has BOTH of the mentioned brand issues. I won't give them any of my cash again.


what video?

would be interested to watch this myself.


----------



## spudmunkey

Can't deny anything in the video, but one thing: the timeline of the "we're all dealing with the virus" etc etc...that didn't happen *after* the customer said his brother died, that was after the video clip.

Most of the other complaints laid out in the video are legitimate, but that claim by the video's creator was inaccurate.


One other is a little cloudy, if i remember right: the first scenario that was talked about, with the green quilted top. That was from a "pick your top" session. The top was visible on video, and the customer purchased it from said video. So that one's a little less cut-and-dry than the video lets on.


----------



## Thaeon

spudmunkey said:


> Can't deny anything in the video, but one thing: the timeline of the "we're all dealing with the virus" etc etc...that didn't happen *after* he said his brother died, that was after.
> 
> Most of the other complaints laid our in the video are legitimate, but that claim by the video's creator was inaccurate.
> 
> 
> One other is a little cloudy, if i remember right: the first scenario that was talked about, with the green quilted top. That was from a "pick your top" session. The top was visible on video, and the customer purchased it from said video. So that one's a little less cut-and-dry than the video lets on.



Regardless, for Jeff to marginalize the dude's situation with a family member dying and highlight that they're being men and still going to work, like men, while crying on live feed about a customer, like a man, is pretty low. And duplicitous. Timeline really doesn't factor. Jeff is still an asshole.

That piece of would should have been rejected as a top out of hand with an imperfection like that or bookmatched in a way that removed it. The body wood should have been rejected for anything other than an opaque finish.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> One other is a little cloudy, if i remember right: the first scenario that was talked about, with the green quilted top. That was from a "pick your top" session. The top was visible on video, and the customer purchased it from said video. So that one's a little less cut-and-dry than the video lets on.



I thought the top thing was petty, unless I just misunderstood it. There wasn't actually something wrong with it right? Just the figuring being a little different in that one spot? I don't know how that's considered a flaw, it's wood and a beautiful top. Then again, I'm not someone who judges the quality of a guitar based on the figuring it has, so stuff like that doesn't bother me. 

That said, the "man" boast and flex was more than enough to make up for it.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> I thought the top thing was petty, unless I just misunderstood it. There wasn't actually something wrong with it right? Just the figuring being a little different in that one spot? I don't know how that's considered a flaw, it's wood and a beautiful top.



It's the spot near the switch. It's bevelled off on the other side, but yeah: the way the quilt pockets morph around it, it's clearly just something inherent in the grain, and could very well be why it was a discounted 5A top (sold for less than their normal 4A, if i remember right), and sold in the "pick your top" video, where you see the top before being cut to shape or finished. On the edge of the lower horn, it also looks like a patch of irregular figuring. It's possible that this piece had several of those spots, and there wasn't a way to NOT have any of them visible, so they put it up on video so people could see the otherwise beautiful top so it wouldn't go do waste, and sold at a discount...but that's all just my own conjecture and attempt at rationalization where there may be no rationale.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Above all else, I hate public flexing and berating of customers. It's incredibly unprofessional. Refuse a refund or whatever, which depending on the circumstances could be shitty or not, but don't name call, literally flex, and make weird borderline sexist comments. 

I wonder what would happen if I asked for a refund. Do I get to "whine" since I am not in fact a man? Do I still have to man up, or no? Or does my still going to work through all of this give me a man card? His common sense confuses me. Common sense would say not to take cheap shots at paying customers. I know for a 100% fact that between me and my friends/bandmates, he lost at least 3 actual paying customers. Might not mean a lot, but I doubt we're the only ones.


----------



## diagrammatiks

jeez just berate your customers in private like every other company. no problem.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

spudmunkey said:


> It's the spot near the switch. It's bevelled off on the other side, but yeah: the way the quilt pockets morph around it, it's clearly just something inherent in the grain, and could very well be why it was a discounted 5A top (sort for less than their normal 4A), and sold in the "pick your top" video, where you see the top before being cut to shape or finished. On the edge of the lower horn, it also looks like a patch of irregular figuring. It's possible that this piece had several of those spots, and there wasn't a way to NOT have any of them visible, so they put it up on video so people could see the otherwise beautiful top so it wouldn't go do waste, and sold at a discount...but that's all just my own conjecture and attempt at rationalization where there may be no rationale.



Yeah, imo, that guitar is gorgeous. I'd definitely pay a premium for that top, even with the imperfection. That's a damn gorgeous piece of quilt imo. 

Did they sell it as a discount/after it being seen? If that's the case then I think it'd be a dumb reason to send it back. Otherwise, it's like that s7g wormhole thing. You shouldn't just expect people to pay a premium for flaws that some might even actually deem desirable.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Chokey Chicken said:


> Above all else, I hate public flexing and berating of customers. It's incredibly unprofessional. Refuse a refund or whatever, which depending on the circumstances could be shitty or not, but don't name call, literally flex, and make weird borderline sexist comments.
> 
> I wonder what would happen if I asked for a refund. Do I get to "whine" since I am not in fact a man? Do I still have to man up, or no? Or does my still going to work through all of this give me a man card? His common sense confuses me. Common sense would say not to take cheap shots at paying customers. I know for a 100% fact that between me and my friends/bandmates, he lost at least 3 actual paying customers. Might not mean a lot, but I doubt we're the only ones.


Did he berate you in one of his shit show videos?


----------



## Seabeast2000

I think Jeff needs an off-camera consultant. Just a little bit of steerage and self-discipline seems like it would pay for itself overnight. 

/Armchair consulting


----------



## spudmunkey

Seabeast2000 said:


> I think Jeff needs an off-camera consultant. Just a little bit of steerage and self-discipline seems like it would pay for itself overnight.
> 
> /Armchair consulting



I wouldn't disagree. When he talks about his grandfather, wife, dad, kids, his artist friends...he's clearly capable of being a kind dude.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Did he berate you in one of his shit show videos?



Nah. I just find his weird literal flexing and telling people to be men and stop whining a tad peculiar and insulting. Insinuating that only men don't "whine" (re: call out bullshit) and also work. 

Guy better watch his fucking mouth, as my job puts me way more "essential" and in danger than him, so that gap toothed little shit needs to mind his words.


----------



## budda

Imagine thinking men dont whine


----------



## V_man

budda said:


> Imagine thinking men dont whine



jajajajajaahah if men don´t whine then internet forums wouldn´t exist


----------



## Thaeon

Chokey Chicken said:


> Nah. I just find his weird literal flexing and telling people to be men and stop whining a tad peculiar and insulting. Insinuating that only men don't "whine" (re: call out bullshit) and also work.
> 
> Guy better watch his fucking mouth, as my job puts me way more "essential" and in danger than him, so that gap toothed little shit needs to mind his words.





budda said:


> Imagine thinking men dont whine



I'd like to see him do his cute man flex thing while whining in front of Rhonda or Gina. It would be precious.


----------



## ikarus

lewis said:


> what video?
> 
> would be interested to watch this myself.



there you go...


----------



## mbardu

Aaaaaargh here we go again.

The worst part is actually the video is quite dishonest.
Trying to find something wrong about a top that was chosen on video and which looks positively great (don't know who why you'd complain about it for the price).
Voluntarily misrepresenting the order of the interactions between the client and Jeff to make it look like he was mocking a family loss (which was not the case).
Assuming and complaining for a fact that the fretboard is not roasted maple (which nobody has proof of) in a case where the guitar was returnable, just with an advertised restock fee.
Don't tell me it's unbiased and honest. Funny thing is he could actually have found some worse example of customer service lapses if this was really his purpose (vs mocking Jeff for views and lulz).

But Jeff being Jeff, and given that he's streaming like 2 hours everyday with his very _personal _style, it's obviously very easy to find choice extracts to make him look especially dumb or make him say what you want with selective editing. Just add the weird "manly flex" thing (where does that even come from lmao  ) and there you go, everyone will just eat it up....

At the end of the day it's just like Max said



MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks will get guitars from Kiesel because they're good guitars for a good price with good options.
> The world keeps spinning.



And as long as Jeff keeps Jeffing, SSO will continue to hate. He's certainly making it easy  .


----------



## devastone

Won't get a dime from me, he puts the douche in douchebag.


----------



## Albake21

If it wasn't bad enough, Mike Jones is spamming the Facebook group with random posts to hide all of the controversial ones. Fuck this company, I'm completely done with them, that includes buying used.


----------



## spudmunkey

Albake21 said:


> If it wasn't bad enough, Mike Jones is spamming the Facebook group with random posts to hide all of the controversial ones. Fuck this company, I'm completely done with them, that includes buying used.



This isn't an arguement I understand. Are they doing it here? No. On facebook. On their own facebook group. On /r/guitar ? Nope. Likely their own forum, though....which makese sense to me.

How dare one of the company-employed admins post content on the most-seen company-managed/administrated front door the company has online.

If one were to walk into a store and start reading bad reviews, wouldn't pretty much any business kick you out?


----------



## Albake21

spudmunkey said:


> This isn't an arguement I understand. Are they doing it here? No. On facebook. On their own facebook group. On /r/guitar ? Nope. Likely their own forum, though....which makese sense to me.
> 
> How dare one of the company-employed admins post content on the most-seen company-managed/administrated front door the company has online.
> 
> If one were to walk into a store and start reading bad reviews, wouldn't pretty much any business kick you out?


Seriously? So instead of actually confronting their issues, you're okay with them just slyly hiding their issues instead? How do you not see an issue with that? I know Mike Jones, he posts in their a couple times a week. I was spammed today from Facebook notifications about Mike posting in the group about 7 times this morning. If you really can't see an issue with this, you're as blind as the rest of the Kiesel sheep.


----------



## spudmunkey

Do I like it? No. Am I OK with it? Yes. He is doing what basically every company would and should do.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## Albake21

I did just see that post. While I'm very happy for that guy, it still doesn't change anything. All I want is Jeff to actually admit he's wrong from his own actions. Say what you will, but until then, that's just my point of view on it.


----------



## electriceye

Wow....that video is UNBELIEVABLE!! Now, NO roasted maple board is white. Ever. EVER. I'm an amateur builder and *I* know that. If you used anything but near-white birdseye (or plain) maple, you're using lower-grade maple - sapwood. No stand-up builder would use that low grade of wood.

After watching that video, I would never, ever buy a guitar from him. What a dick.

$20 says Jeff is a Trump supporter. Guaranteed.

BTW, if those quilted tops are a $400 upcharge, I better get moving. That's some nice margins there, folks.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

So he was stressed out and whined on the internet? 

Some might say he should man up.


----------



## Velokki

Chokey Chicken said:


> So he was stressed out and whined on the internet?
> 
> Some might say he should man up.



Hahaha, good one.


----------



## Thaeon

spudmunkey said:


> This isn't an arguement I understand. Are they doing it here? No. On facebook. On their own facebook group. On /r/guitar ? Nope. Likely their own forum, though....which makese sense to me.
> 
> How dare one of the company-employed admins post content on the most-seen company-managed/administrated front door the company has online.
> 
> If one were to walk into a store and start reading bad reviews, wouldn't pretty much any business kick you out?



So businesses should do everything they can to sweep bad publicity under the rug? It looks a lot better to address it and make it right as transparently as possible. Jeff's childish meltdown on live stream would get most CEOs removed from their position or removed from the public eye with a press conference specifically for a public apology. Glad the guy got it sorted. But it shouldn't have taken public backlash to get it done. The right thing to do would have been to not be an arrogant prick to the guy in front of thousands of people, and just said, "Hey dude, sorry that happened, lets work something out." What we got was Jeff going full Chernobyl on Instagram...


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> Aaaaaargh here we go again.
> 
> The worst part is actually the video is quite dishonest.
> Trying to find something wrong about a top that was chosen on video and which looks positively great (don't know who why you'd complain about it for the price).
> Voluntarily misrepresenting the order of the interactions between the client and Jeff to make it look like he was mocking a family loss (which was not the case).
> Assuming and complaining for a fact that the fretboard is not roasted maple (which nobody has proof of) in a case where the guitar was returnable, just with an advertised restock fee.
> Don't tell me it's unbiased and honest. Funny thing is he could actually have found some worse example of customer service lapses if this was really his purpose (vs mocking Jeff for views and lulz).
> 
> But Jeff being Jeff, and given that he's streaming like 2 hours everyday with his very _personal _style, it's obviously very easy to find choice extracts to make him look especially dumb or make him say what you want with selective editing. Just add the weird "manly flex" thing (where does that even come from lmao  ) and there you go, everyone will just eat it up....
> 
> At the end of the day it's just like Max said
> 
> 
> 
> And as long as Jeff keeps Jeffing, SSO will continue to hate. He's certainly making it easy  .



No proof that it’s not roasted? Is this Stevie Wonder’s SS.org account?


----------



## Alberto7

Albake21 said:


> I did just see that post. While I'm very happy for that guy, it still doesn't change anything. All I want is Jeff to actually admit he's wrong from his own actions. Say what you will, but until then, that's just my point of view on it.



Apologizing to the customer in private after publicly dragging his name through the mud should not be enough. At least a public apology to the guy. The fact that such a video (the one with Jeff ranting) even exists blows my mind.


----------



## bostjan

Jeff said:


> No proof that it’s not roasted? Is this Stevie Wonder’s SS.org account?


Maybe it's just my Superstition, but the fretboard that was Signed, Sealed, Delivered to the customer, when I saw the photo, I thought "Isn't She Lovely?", well... I Wish. But, I had Faith, as a Part Time Lover of Kiesels, I Believe that is was roasted maple, but, either way, the Ebony and Ivory sort of dark contrast between the neck and fretboard Knocks Me Off My Feet. No longer can I live in the Pasttime Paradise where Jeff would take the Higher Ground and not be so Uptight.

Joking aside, whether it (the fretboard) was roasted or not (I think it is), it clearly looks like shit. Jeff should have tried to work something out with the customer in private. These sorts of actions are simply unacceptable.


----------



## mbardu

electriceye said:


> Wow....that video is UNBELIEVABLE!! Now, NO roasted maple board is white. Ever. EVER. I'm an amateur builder and *I* know that. If you used anything but near-white birdseye (or plain) maple, you're using lower-grade maple - sapwood. No stand-up builder would use that low grade of wood.
> 
> BTW, if those quilted tops are a $400 upcharge, I better get moving. That's some nice margins there, folks.





Jeff said:


> No proof that it’s not roasted? Is this Stevie Wonder’s SS.org account?



Oh wow that's so clever 
So anyways, you guys wanna _*whine *_about PRS roasted maple also, or is it just Kiesel that we love to complain about? Yeah I didn't think so...

















PS: that Kiesel quilt top was probably ~300 in a pick-a-top session, and I still don't see how people complain about it. Find me any builder who gives you a top anywhere near that quality for that kind of price, I'll wait. And not a raw billet you have to work yourself, no. The price of a top on an actual built finished guitar. Good luck!


----------



## mbardu

Alberto7 said:


> Apologizing to the customer in private after publicly dragging his name through the mud should not be enough. At least a public apology to the guy. The fact that such a video (the one with Jeff ranting) even exists blows my mind.



That I agree with. Public with the whine should mean public with the retraction/apology.


----------



## spudmunkey

Well, we'll see where things go from here. While some of the other CS kerfuffles gained a tiny bit of traction outside of their own social media bubble, this is the first one i've seen get any significant amount of traction outside of that. The video in question was released after either the same day as, or one day after, Kiesel's own most recent video, the one where Mark Kiesel talks about his new single coil pickups, and has more than 5x as many views (17,000 vs less than 3k for kiesel's). But then again this youtuber's Chapman video got 154,000 views, so this kiesel one hasn't blown up like that one did. So still small potatoes...but is it enough to kick a change of pace into how they use their social media?

All we can see so far is that up until yesterday, Jeff was going live on FB and IG nearly 3 times a day every day, for the last several weeks, but the only video he's posted since is a short pre-recorded video of showing off the autographed jason becker guitar one last time before shipping it to the buyer.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## budda

Please show me a non private stock prs spec list with roasted maple, because I have not yet seen one. Not saying it doesnt exist, but saying I havent seen the 5+ threads that it would generate.


----------



## Albake21

Alright he did it! He actually posted a video of an apology. Not only that but they are changing their policy on roasted maple necks and fretboards. You will be able to request light, medium, or dark and they will be doing their best to match them as best as they can. Does this change my stance on the company? Not too sure yet to be honest. It's going to be a wait and see for me. If things change and he actually commits to better QC and overall custom service, than maybe I'll change my mind. All in all, I'm happy he owned up to his mistakes.


----------



## mbardu

budda said:


> Please show me a non private stock prs spec list with roasted maple, because I have not yet seen one. Not saying it doesnt exist, but saying I havent seen the 5+ threads that it would generate.



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/prs-se-roasted-maple-limited-custom-24.338002/

https://www.prsguitars.com/electrics/model/se_custom_24_roasted_maple_limited

Literally 20 seconds of Google if you'd like more links.
Also the pictures above.


----------



## bostjan

Albake21 said:


> Alright he did it! He actually posted a video of an apology. Not only that but they are changing their policy on roasted maple necks and fretboards. You will be able to request light, medium, or dark and they will be doing their best to match them as best as they can.



Now to wait and see how many customers decide to wait and see how that works out...

@mbardu - note how the colouration matches between the fretboard and the neck, though. I feel like that was probably the actual issue here and that keeps being swept under the rug. To my eyes, the Kiesel in question looked like it had a roasted maple fretboard, personally, but the striking mismatch between the woods that were supposedly the same on the same guitar was what I, personally, thought looked bad. I mean, if it were my guitar, I might have kept it as is, but I would have definitely been uncomfortable at first. At any rate, if Kiesel is publicly apologizing to the customer and also saying that they are going to try to do better in the future, that's really all I, as a spectator, was hoping to see in this. It would have been better a couple days ago, but better late than never.


----------



## Thaeon

mbardu said:


> Oh wow that's so clever
> So anyways, you guys wanna _*whine *_about PRS roasted maple also, or is it just Kiesel that we love to complain about? Yeah I didn't think so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: that Kiesel quilt top was probably ~300 in a pick-a-top session, and I still don't see how people complain about it. Find me any builder who gives you a top anywhere near that quality for that kind of price, I'll wait. And not a row billet you have to work yourself, no. The price of a top on an actual built finished guitar. Good luck!



Looking at that PRS, while the image shows it being fairly light, its darker than the unstained part of the maple top. Which tells me, yes, in fact, this is roasted. That mahogany also looks a little washed out. So I think the flash here is making that look much lighter. The maple board shown in the lower picture is consistent with the roasted maple neck on my Suhr. EBMM roasts darker. It depends a little on the process. From what I remember though, Kiesel doesn't actually roast. Its a stain meant to look roasted. Which, should fairly consistently present itself if done right. Then get the stains on their tops right all the time. Why couldn't they get the maple board right?


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> Looking at that PRS, while the image shows it being fairly light, its darker than the unstained part of the maple top. Which tells me, yes, in fact, this is roasted. That mahogany also looks a little washed out. So I think the flash here is making that look much lighter. The maple board shown in the lower picture is consistent with the roasted maple neck on my Suhr. EBMM roasts darker. It depends a little on the process. From what I remember though, Kiesel doesn't actually roast. Its a stain meant to look roasted. Which, should fairly consistently present itself if done right. Then get the stains on their tops right all the time. Why couldn't they get the maple board right?



Won't comment on how we move the goalposts and nitpick now that we realize other builders also have light roasted maple, but you are out of the loop here because kiesel now actually roast woods too.


----------



## bostjan

Thaeon said:


> From what I remember though, Kiesel doesn't actually roast. Its a stain meant to look roasted.



That'd be pretty darn disappointing if true. You don't happen to have a source, do you?


----------



## Thaeon

I appreciate the public statement. How he moves forward is what is really important though. There's some excuses in there, which I don't like hearing. But we all want to feel better about the shitty things we do. Good to see. But I'm taking it with a grain of salt.


----------



## mbardu

bostjan said:


> @mbardu - note how the colouration matches between the fretboard and the neck, though. I feel like that was probably the actual issue here and that keeps being swept under the rug. To my eyes, the Kiesel in question looked like it had a roasted maple fretboard, personally, but the striking mismatch between the woods that were supposedly the same on the same guitar was what I, personally, thought looked bad. I mean, if it were my guitar, I might have kept it as is, but I would have definitely been uncomfortable at first. At any rate, if Kiesel is publicly apologizing to the customer and also saying that they are going to try to do better in the future, that's really all I, as a spectator, was hoping to see in this. It would have been better a couple days ago, but better late than never.



I agree it was a poor match, and Kiesel could have done a better job. Just replying to the hordes of people convinced it's not roasted maple while they know nothing about it.
When you order roasted maple at Kiesel, looks are not guaranteed, and you assume a restock fee if you want to return the guitar because you don't like it. All mentioned to you upon order and in the invoice you get before agreeing to the build.



bostjan said:


> That'd be pretty darn disappointing if true. You don't happen to have a source, do you?


Hes' wrong. They had a finish called _"roasted"_ "*baked" *(thanks Spud for the correction) a couple of years back, but their roasted maple nowadays is _actually _roasted.


----------



## oneblackened

Thaeon said:


> I appreciate the public statement. How he moves forward is what is really important though. There's some excuses in there, which I don't like hearing. But we all want to feel better about the shitty things we do. Good to see. But I'm taking it with a grain of salt.


Pretty much. But hey, if this is what it takes for Kiesel to get their collective shit together, then good enough for me.


----------



## Thaeon

bostjan said:


> That'd be pretty darn disappointing if true. You don't happen to have a source, do you?



Apparently that's changed. Initially when offering it it was a stain.

I'm not intending to move goal posts. Whoever put that neck together knowing they were using roasted wood should have done the extra work to make sure the pieces matched.


----------



## budda

mbardu said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/prs-se-roasted-maple-limited-custom-24.338002/
> 
> https://www.prsguitars.com/electrics/model/se_custom_24_roasted_maple_limited
> 
> Literally 20 seconds of Google if you'd like more links.
> Also the pictures above.



Appreciate it. Now im going to look up how those look in the wild for comparison sake.


----------



## JSanta

I still think that Jeff is an asshole, but I hope that this is a learning experience for him, and that he can turn his image around. If he didn't act like such "bro" about everything, and called people out over really petty shit over social media, people wouldn't treat him like someone with a god complex.


----------



## spudmunkey

...


----------



## Thaeon

oneblackened said:


> Pretty much. But hey, if this is what it takes for Kiesel to get their collective shit together, then good enough for me.



Dude, I hope so. I've got nothing against the guitars themselves. The amount of guitar you get for what you pay with them is great. I just don't want to see people with reasonable issues with guitars get told to get fucked. Wrong way to handle shit.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Probably smart that he checks off social media for a bit. I'm sure he is mentally stretched thin. I'm glad there's an apology, but I'm not so sure what it's worth. Definitely addressed some of the problems in great ways, handled some others a little oddly (shouldn't matter if it's a one off customer or a die-hard customer.) I'll see how they go. I'm not huge into a lot of the shade that gets tossed Kiesel's way, but this instance was particularly out there. So time will tell if I'll buy a Vader again. Was really hoping to put my $1200 towards it, but that's just not something I care to do at this point.

Basically, he seems to largely be owning up to it which is good, but I've already got a sour taste in my mouth for the moment. I'll probably see how they've been and if I still have that sour taste in my mouth come xmas or next tax season. I honestly hope he can de-stress and mellow out, but let's be real here... It's not just this one week where he's acted indignant and rude.


----------



## electriceye

mbardu said:


> Won't comment on how we move the goalposts and nitpick now that we realize other builders also have light roasted maple, but you are out of the loop here because kiesel now actually roast woods too.



To address your point, I would NOT accept that from PRS. Or any other maker. I've seen plenty of necks and other boards that PRS has used, and I don't recall seeing any of them being THAT light. I have a stack of tempered maple boards in my shop, from various suppliers, and they are a nice, dark brown. I wouldn't accept (or buy) anything different.

That Kiesel may have well been "roasted," but what kind of moron pairs a light board like that with a DARK roasted neck? 

And, I saw someone mention about the necks/boards being stained. If the wood is not clear-coated, there's a very simple test: smell it. You can tell right away if it's roasted or not. It has a nice, smoky smell to it.


----------



## electriceye

Señor Voorhees said:


> Probably smart that he checks off social media for a bit. I'm sure he is mentally stretched thin. I'm glad there's an apology, but I'm not so sure what it's worth. Definitely addressed some of the problems in great ways, handled some others a little oddly (shouldn't matter if it's a one off customer or a die-hard customer.) I'll see how they go. I'm not huge into a lot of the shade that gets tossed Kiesel's way, but this instance was particularly out there. So time will tell if I'll buy a Vader again. Was really hoping to put my $1200 towards it, but that's just not something I care to do at this point.
> 
> Basically, he seems to largely be owning up to it which is good, but I've already got a sour taste in my mouth for the moment. I'll probably see how they've been and if I still have that sour taste in my mouth come xmas or next tax season. I honestly hope he can de-stress and mellow out, but let's be real here... It's not just this one week where he's acted indignant and rude.



The problem is that he has a very long history of treating people this way. He can apologize all he wants, but at what point do you say "enough?"


----------



## lewis

god I absolutely love the deep caramel warmth of the roasted fretboards on my bolt on guitars - 







Goldenbrown


----------



## spudmunkey

lewis said:


> god I absolutely love the deep caramel warmth of the roasted fretboards on my bolt on guitars -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goldenbrown



I really wish the viewing angles of this laptop screen didn't suck so bad.


----------



## lewis

mbardu said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/prs-se-roasted-maple-limited-custom-24.338002/
> 
> https://www.prsguitars.com/electrics/model/se_custom_24_roasted_maple_limited
> 
> Literally 20 seconds of Google if you'd like more links.
> Also the pictures above.



Yeah ok!
now show us the videos that PRS made on social media, slagging off any customers who bought and subsequently complained about gripes they had with their orders.

oh wait....


----------



## lewis

spudmunkey said:


> I really wish the viewing angles of this laptop screen didn't suck so bad.
> 
> View attachment 79771


hahaha


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The Streisand Effect is real y'all.


----------



## mbardu

lewis said:


> Yeah ok!
> now show us the videos that PRS made on social media, slagging off any customers who bought and subsequently complained about gripes they had with their orders.
> 
> oh wait....



Nobody said anything about that but I guess you can't see the goalposts anymore with how far they've moved.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I don't feel that people change too much... not quickly anyway. It takes a lot of time and reflection for that to genuinely happen. Love him/ hate him... he is who he is and the best he might be able to do is to show a tad more humility. As far as manufacturing mistakes/ discrepancies, it happens and is understandable. Communicate transparently with your clients and make them feel as if their business is appreciated. Then you can work thru the issue. Just hold up your end of the deal and don't have an attitude when a customer has a legit complaint. None of that should be impossible to manage for anyone with integrity.


----------



## lewis

some very transparent/Hollow "apology" just to hoodwink the internet doesnt wash with me.

he even says "Sorry but I was right" in the apology ffs.

Look, you still want to shop at Kiesel and give this turd money. Go for it. Fill your boots. Order as many guitars as you want. Doesnt change him, his actions, how he has been and how he will continue to be.

Fake apologies or not.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

electriceye said:


> The problem is that he has a very long history of treating people this way. He can apologize all he wants, but at what point do you say "enough?"



This is why I don't have high hopes. I remember him pulling the same, albeit not on video, slagging of a customer who sent pics in to have a color match, they failed to deliver and he berated them in some way instead of saying something akin to "sorry you're upset, we can offer a rebuild or a refund, but realize we can't match things perfectly and if the colors don't meet up this time around, we'll just refund you minus shipping because we likely can't give what you want in that regard." (maybe suggest they pick a different color too.) I'm trying to give up on ever owning a Vader again but it's hard, as that guitar was hands down my favorite guitar I've ever owned. At this point, I just don't want to rock the name either, so it's not as simple as buying used.

At this point I don't see it happening just because he is who he is and it's difficult for me to want to put money in his pockets. I do wish him the best, but I also hope he can turn shit around. (heavy doubts there.) The guitars, when to spec, are amazing in my experience (I've owned a few.) But this situation, even after the apology, leaves a real foul taste in my mouth. 



High Plains Drifter said:


> I don't feel that people change too much... not quickly anyway. It takes a lot of time and reflection for that to genuinely happen. Love him/ hate him... he is who he is and the best he might be able to do is to show a tad more humility. As far as manufacturing mistakes/ discrepancies, it happens and is understandable. Communicate transparently with your clients and make them feel as if their business is appreciated. Then you can work thru the issue. Just hold up your end of the deal and don't have an attitude when a customer has a legit complaint. None of that should be impossible to manage for anyone with integrity.



This x1000. If you feel you can't fulfill the buyer, just give a refund (provided their complaint is reasonable, not just a "I dun wannit cuz money changed and I regret spending it") and move on. They have enough business where they can sell or scrap builds that didn't work out. For real... Opt 50 is a joke. With 90% of the gaudy shit Kiesel slaps on their in-house builds they have no business saying that your opt 50 won't sell, provided they go over it and it's in mint condition.


----------



## Amenthea

I've spent the last 15 minutes reading through this thread and it's just devolved into fanboys vs people who recognise terrible customer service when they see it.
I think the majority of us can agree that mating a light maple board with a dark maple board is stupid, unless the customer requested it specifically. It's really as simple as that, and Jeff being a prick to customers is nothing new and is an aside to the instruments they make.


----------



## GoldDragon

asdfasd


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Confidence entirely restored. 

But really, they need to revisit their entire return structure before I’d pull the trigger on another Kiesel. It’s cool that he’s saying sorry, I’ll give a little respect for that, but the logical next step is altering their return policies that essentially make it nearly impossible to return a guitar.


----------



## mbardu

Amenthea said:


> I've spent the last 15 minutes reading through this thread and it's just devolved into fanboys vs people who recognise terrible customer service when they see it.
> I think the majority of us can agree that mating a light maple board with a dark maple board is stupid, unless the customer requested it specifically. It's really as simple as that, and Jeff being a prick to customers is nothing new and is an aside to the instruments they make.



Eeeh there aren't really any Kiesel fanbois in SSO. You'd go mad. Everybody, like absolutely _everybody _recognizes that in this situation it's 1-a very bad wood matching, 2-a very poor customer service decision and 3-a very Jeffy way to handle things (as there have been multiple of them in the past).

The only real point of contention is really that the anti-Kiesel gang doesn't have much nuance and is unable to discuss anything without frothing at the mouth. From the above points, which _could _be the basis for a discussion, it somehow goes into "that quilted maple top is not even _that _nice" (are we talking about the same top? from people playing flat black guitars?) to "they must be lying liars, there has never been a light roasted maple board in the history of the word" (even when faced with examples proving otherwise), to "look at me, I have some guitars with maple fretboard", or to the usual "their guitars are trailer park poop worse than toys" (from people flaunting Harley Benton or entry level Ibanez as the ultimate guitars). Even the video from a couple pages ago is pretty pretty dishonest, which is not really required when the initial point is good.


----------



## ramses

I was expecting some sort of apology video from Kiesel, but not this one:

... "I messed up" ... "I was in the wrong" ... "I learned a lesson" ... "I'm sorry" ...

I do believe that's an actual apology.

In hindsight one can say that this was bound to happen, sooner or later. Now that it happened, I hope that it indeed is for the better.

I also hope that the customer will finally get the roasted fretboard he dreamed of.


----------



## Randy

spudmunkey said:


>








bostjan said:


> That'd be pretty darn disappointing if true. You don't happen to have a source, do you?



I remember hearing this, I just don't recall if it was Kiesel or not. Roasted maple is very brittle, and they (whoever's policy it was) had concerns about stability.


----------



## jephjacques

I've got a bunch of roasted maple necked guitars and they've been incredibly stable even in Halifax's stupid variable climate- much more so than anything other than my Aristides. Can't speak to the brittleness of the wood, but googling around does indicate that might be a thing.


----------



## spudmunkey

Randy said:


> I remember hearing this, I just don't recall if it was Kiesel or not. Roasted maple is very brittle, and they (whoever's policy it was) had concerns about stability.



To recap: thay had limited but bad experience with roasted maple, and a part of it was the wood they were supplied. They offered a "baked" finish for the look of roasted maple, without having to deal with the production down-sides. Last year they put in an actual wood-roasting oven, and roast their own woods: plain and figured maple necks, plain and figured maple fretboards,1-piece ash and alder bodies. They experimented with different levels of roasting, and came up with one that worked well with their production process, without going too far in the roasting where brittleness was an issue. It's also cheaper than their "baked" stain finish.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

mbardu said:


> Eeeh there aren't really any Kiesel fanbois in SSO. You'd go mad. Everybody, like absolutely _everybody _recognizes that in this situation it's 1-a very bad wood matching, 2-a very poor customer service decision and 3-a very Jeffy way to handle things (as there have been multiple of them in the past).
> 
> The only real point of contention is really that the anti-Kiesel gang doesn't have much nuance and is unable to discuss anything without frothing at the mouth. From the above points, which _could _be the basis for a discussion, it somehow goes into "that quilted maple top is not even _that _nice" (are we talking about the same top? from people playing flat black guitars?) to "they must be lying liars, there has never been a light roasted maple board in the history of the word" (even when faced with examples proving otherwise), to "look at me, I have some guitars with maple fretboard", or to the usual "their guitars are trailer park poop worse than toys" (from people flaunting Harley Benton or entry level Ibanez as the ultimate guitars). Even the video from a couple pages ago is pretty pretty dishonest, which is not really required when the initial point is good.




Let me ask you an honest question. If you went to walmart and they had a TV marked as $500 on the shelf, but when you went to check out it rang up as $900. You complain... Then the manager comes out and tells you, in actual words with physical taunts, that you're an idiot crybaby loser woman for thinking it should be $500, what would you honestly do?

Those faced with examples of lightly colored roasted maple is one thing, but in the case of PRS it's broadcasted exactly what you're getting because pics. Kiesel gave buyer a roasted maple neck that was 5000 shades darker than the roasted maple board. Common sense, which Jeff said he has lots of, would dictate that that's an idiotic thing to do.

Stop trying to defend the idiocy that Jeff was vehemently defending. Even if it was his staff that thought it was okay to ship a dark roasted neck with a light roasted fretboard, it's on him as the head honcho to say "that's not cool, if someone requests roasted neck and fretboard, MAKE THEM MATCH!" It's on HIM as the leader of the pack to say "that's fucking stupid" with common sense and say "make sure the fretboard and neck match if they're the same requested wood." Don't just berate the customer until you realize they've spent a house's worth of money on your company.

edit: In the case of my walmart story, to be clear, I would 1000% take my business elsewhere even if I had to pay a premium on top. Some people might be willing to shrink up and kiss the ass of those telling you that you're a fucking moron's asses, but I refuse. Jeff was a fucking cunt, and it's not the first time. This is the worst occasion, but he needs to listen to those who tell him that a roasted board and neck should match, and he should DEFINITELY listen to those who tell him that wearing loose headphones near a fucking buffing machine is beyond stupid. The guy is a moron and he has a lot to fix before I consider giving him $10 for a pack of smokes, let alone $1200+ for a guitar when he tells people with common sense to be men/have common sense. He's a moron and if you defend this situation, you're not that bright either.


----------



## xzacx

I heard a lot of excuses and thought it came off primarily like a reaction to so much negativity and a lack of orders coming in. 

But...that’s a lot more than I remember ever seeing in the past as far as admitting fault and taking steps to make it right, so I’d call it a net positive. I can’t say if it’d be enough to make me feel confident buying a Kiesel since I’m not a fan of the products in the first place, but hopefully it’s moving in the right direction for those that are.


----------



## Randy

xzacx said:


> But...that’s a lot more than I remember ever seeing in the past as far as admitting fault and taking steps to make it right, so I’d call it a net positive.



The issue is that Jeff typically reserves "lol, you're not getting anything loser. Go get him minions!" *flexes forearms* for more subjective QC/customer issues, like the cracked fretboard or stain/paint colors that don't match the spec sheet. The only "mistake" he made this time is calling the dogs on somebody that had such a hilariously obvious fuck-up on his hands that would've been SO easy to fix.

He didn't fuckin' learn anything. This is classic "I'm sorry I got caught" not "I'm sorry I did it" shit. Wait until next week when somebody pays $300 extra for flamed maple and they get something Plain Jane maple instead, and he goes back to helicoptering his dick on instagram.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> Oh wow that's so clever
> So anyways, you guys wanna _*whine *_about PRS roasted maple also, or is it just Kiesel that we love to complain about? Yeah I didn't think so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: that Kiesel quilt top was probably ~300 in a pick-a-top session, and I still don't see how people complain about it. Find me any builder who gives you a top anywhere near that quality for that kind of price, I'll wait. And not a raw billet you have to work yourself, no. The price of a top on an actual built finished guitar. Good luck!



Yeah, that's it. Compare an $800 import with a $1500 "Made in USA" guitar. Not only that, but the PRS SE's board is still darker, and I bet the back is a helluva lot closer. You're really not doing your argument any favors.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> Won't comment on how we move the goalposts and nitpick now that we realize other builders also have light roasted maple, but you are out of the loop here because kiesel now actually roast woods too.



And yet your cherry picking product shots of guitars to compare with actual photos of a guitar costing twice as much. 

Does being a Kiesel shill get you a decent discount? Just curious.


----------



## mbardu

ramses said:


> ... "I messed up" ... "I was in the wrong" ... "I learned a lesson" ... "I'm sorry" ...
> 
> I do believe that's an actual apology.
> 
> In hindsight one can say that this was bound to happen, sooner or later. Now that it happened, I hope that it indeed is for the better.
> 
> I also hope that the customer will finally get the baked fretboard he dreamed of.



It does sound very apologetic coming from Jeff.


Señor Voorhees said:


> Let me ask you an honest question. If you went to walmart and they had a TV marked as $500 on the shelf, but when you went to check out it rang up as $900. You complain... Then the manager comes out and tells you, in actual words with physical taunts, that you're an idiot crybaby loser woman for thinking it should be $500, what would you honestly do?
> 
> Those faced with examples of lightly colored roasted maple is one thing, but in the case of PRS it's broadcasted exactly what you're getting because pics. Kiesel gave buyer a roasted maple neck that was 5000 shades darker than the roasted maple board. Common sense, which Jeff said he has lots of, would dictate that that's an idiotic thing to do.
> 
> Stop trying to defend the idiocy that Jeff was vehemently defending. Even if it was his staff that thought it was okay to ship a dark roasted neck with a light roasted fretboard, it's on him as the head honcho to say "that's not cool, if someone requests roasted neck and fretboard, MAKE THEM MATCH!" It's on HIM as the leader of the pack to say "that's fucking stupid" with common sense and say "make sure the fretboard and neck match if they're the same requested wood." Don't just berate the customer until you realize they've spent a house's worth of money on your company.



Just actually read points 1/2/3 in the message that you are literally quoting and you'll realize you are up in arms against something that _nobody, like nobody _defended.

As for the Walmart example, I really really fail to see how it's relevant like, at all. From the fact that the issue was never a question of price of the item, to the fact that we're talking about someone ordering a commissioned instrument...how is this related, like at all? It really sounds like you're just trying to find random ways to repeat for the umpteenth time that Jeff was kind of a jerk during that interaction....and I guess knock yourself out, but everyone already agrees with that  .


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> Yeah, that's it. Compare an $800 import with a $1500 "Made in USA" guitar. Not only that, but the PRS SE's board is still darker, and I bet the back is a helluva lot closer. You're really not doing your argument any favors.





Jeff said:


> And yet your cherry picking product shots of guitars to compare with actual photos of a guitar costing twice as much.



Are you being disingenuous or dense on purpose?

People on the other page claim "Roasted Maple can never be that light, it has to be dark brown, Kiesel is lying". So the point of those examples is just to show that no, this is in fact not the case, and people pretending to know whether the fretboard is roasted or not based on looks from one photo on the internet are talking out of their asses. Nothing more. Is there a price argument there? A value one? Are we talking about country of origin? Or color of the neck?
Do you have an actual counter argument instead of talking about unrelated fluff?

If you want to talk relative value of PRS SE vs Kiesel (I have a bunch of both), no problem, but I fail to see how this was the topic of discussion...

Literally no nuance on SSO...either shit on Kiesel for absolutely everything or you are automatically a paid shill. Even Jeff has a more nuanced persona than some people around here, and he's not exactly the most nuanced person around 

PS: If you think that's cherry picking, just google "PRS SE roasted fretboard", you'll see that the entire series is very light.


----------



## Randy

mbardu said:


> Roasted Maple can never be that light



Fretboard in the OP looks like it's made of vanilla ice cream. You're just arguing to argue.


----------



## Frostbite

I mean this is more then we've gotten from him in the past but this is also the first time it coincided with a comically awful live meltdown and it blowing up in his face. The cynic in my doesn't like how many excuses he has and how he only touches on this one incident and not their overarching issue with returns.

On the flip side, it's not like the dude is out murdering anyone and doing something that's so completely unforgivable or whatever that he's beyond any sort of redemption. I think this is a half decent apology/starting point, but there needs to be some confidence building going on in the future. There's a lot going on right now. The world is in a spot it hasn't been in in a long time. It's going to effect people differently.

It's disingenuous to write Kiesel off as a whole because of this and other incidents. This can be a real starting point to make some great changes for them. Only time will tell what actually happens. But if their return structure doesn't change as a whole, it'll be hard to convince me to buy one. They just can't have the laughably awful system they have in place now moving forward.


----------



## Thaeon

mbardu said:


> Are you being disingenuous or dense on purpose?
> 
> People on the other page claim "Roasted Maple can never be that light, it has to be dark brown, Kiesel is lying". So the point of those examples is just to show that no, this is in fact not the case, and people pretending to know whether the fretboard is roasted or not based on looks from one photo on the internet are talking out of their asses. Nothing more. Is there a price argument there? A value one? Are we talking about country of origin? Or color of the neck?
> Do you have an actual counter argument instead of talking about unrelated fluff?
> 
> If you want to talk relative value of PRS SE vs Kiesel (I have a bunch of both), no problem, but I fail to see how this was the topic of discussion...
> 
> Literally no nuance on SSO...either shit on Kiesel for absolutely everything or you are automatically a paid shill. Even Jeff has a more nuanced persona than some people around here, and he's not exactly the most nuanced person around
> 
> PS: If you think that's cherry picking, just google "PRS SE roasted fretboard", you'll see that the entire series is very light.



I think we ALL understand that. But you can TELL a roasted board by looking at it. I don’t know the guy who bought the guitar, but based on the images I saw, it looked plain maple. As I stated earlier in response to your PRS post, I can absolutely tell from that washed out picture that it’s a roasted board. And that it’s a darker shade than the plain maple from the top. I never said roasted anything had to be a specific shade. My point has always been that they should match the board and the neck. You seem to have come in here, guns blazing without actually attempting to understand the people here talking and just reacting to the YouTube talking head. All anyone here is saying is QC should have caught that before it left cause regardless of what it is, it looks ass and he’s gotta put his name on it. And Jeff acted like a snotty child. Again. Full stop.

Ultimately business will be effected by how he treats customers and the quality of his work. His brand is affected by his public persona. If I acted like that to anyone at work or out of it, my dad would have chewed my ASS whether or not I was his boss. I’m almost certain that’s what happened. Make the customer happy and they’re going to go spend their time getting you business by talking about how awesome the experience was of having a fucked up thing and how for you went to make it right. The time and extra money there will earn you 10x that in return for taking care of your people.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> Are you being disingenuous or dense on purpose?
> 
> People on the other page claim "Roasted Maple can never be that light, it has to be dark brown, Kiesel is lying". So the point of those examples is just to show that no, this is in fact not the case, and people pretending to know whether the fretboard is roasted or not based on looks from one photo on the internet are talking out of their asses. Nothing more. Is there a price argument there? A value one? Are we talking about country of origin? Or color of the neck?
> Do you have an actual counter argument instead of talking about unrelated fluff?
> 
> If you want to talk relative value of PRS SE vs Kiesel (I have a bunch of both), no problem, but I fail to see how this was the topic of discussion...
> 
> Literally no nuance on SSO...either shit on Kiesel for absolutely everything or you are automatically a paid shill. Even Jeff has a more nuanced persona than some people around here, and he's not exactly the most nuanced person around
> 
> PS: If you think that's cherry picking, just google "PRS SE roasted fretboard", you'll see that the entire series is very light.



Are you really that fucking obtuse? This is about more than a shit roasting job, it’s that *the fingerboard and neck don’t match*.

Man, if I were Jeff, I wouldn’t give you more than free shipping, much less a discount.

I’m not even going to bother about the PRS SE “argument” anymore, because it’s beyond fucking stupid. Seriously dude. Go back to the other thread, where someone MIGHT still like Kiesel.


----------



## Jeff

Here ya go, Stevie.

https://www.warmoth.com/Pages/Class...=1&Type=1&Path=Strat,Modern&nWood=20&fWood=20

See that? Look how the fretboards look like the backs. On $200 necks.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jesus Christ, Kiesel just continues to be a bigger and bigger shitshow ran by a total fucking tool.

The "Now that we're... MEN!" Spongebob segment was hysterical.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> Are you really that fucking obtuse? This is about more than a shit roasting job, it’s that *the fingerboard and neck don’t match*..



And nobody said the opposite so you're beating a dead horse. Looks like you didn't even read the post you've replied to, or that you didn't attempt to understand it, because nobody denied the matching job was very bad.

Does that mean that people on the internet can tell the fretboard is not roasted? Absolutely not. Those are two separate facts that have no bearing on one another.

Its really tiring repeating the same thing over and over for people with no reading comprehension.

And again with an unrelated (warmoth) argument and random price. I'm just as much a fan of warmoth as the next guy, but nobody asked and it's not relevant


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> And nobody said the opposite so you're beating a dead horse. Looks like you didn't even read the post you've replied to, or that you didn't attempt to understand it, because nobody denied the matching job was very bad.
> 
> Does that mean that people on the internet can tell the fretboard is not roasted? Absolutely not. Those are two separate facts that have no bearing on one another.
> 
> Its really tiring repeating the same thing over and over for people with no reading comprehension.
> 
> And again with an unrelated (warmoth) argument and random price. I'm just as much a fan of warmoth as the next guy, but nobody asked and it's not relevant



You really don’t get it. 
 okay, shill. That’s why you spent time looking for examples of other roasted maple. Have a nice evening.


----------



## xzacx

Jeff said:


> You really don’t get it.
> okay, shill. That’s why you spent time looking for examples of other roasted maple. Have a nice evening.


Give him a break, his PRS example backfired when it was quickly noted that the board and neck matched, but he was talking about VALUE. Haven't you heard what a great value Kiesels are?!


----------



## Jeff

xzacx said:


> Give him a break, his PRS example backfired when it was quickly noted that the board and neck matched, but he was talking about VALUE. Haven't you heard what a great value Kiesels are?!



Oh yeah! I forgot. Great. Value. Yeah that’s it.


----------



## mbardu

If after 3 explanations you guys still can't see that the sole reason for the PRS example was to deny the claim of "I can absolutely tell that the fretboard is not made of roasted maple because it's light colored" from some people (and nothing more, I was not the one who brought up value...), then I don't know what to do about you guys. I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt re- that you may at least have been trying to argue in good faith. Clearly misguided though!
Keep bringing up unrelated arguments, then walking them back when they make no sense, and enjoy the circlejerking. I guess a couple of emojis are easier when you can't actually type a full sentence that makes sense.


----------



## Decapitated

BOOM! Roasted. 


Ok, that’s all I have to offer this thread.


----------



## Velokki

I know people way too well (not Jeff personally) to spot a pattern.

Jeff isn't that stupid of a businessman that he'd risk his company, and is willing to do a lot to rectify the situation. But this is really just only PR. This is kinda comparable to an oil company that gladly ruins a town's environment, and uses lawyers to fight the complaining citizens. When the situation goes really public, and politicians start to wake up to the disaster, and the company would be potentially facing 500 million in damages - _then _you would see them making a real _"heartfelt" _apology, offering to clean the town's sewage systems, rebuild and relocate the town's school, and promise never to pollute the environment again. Now, why would the oil company do this? Because it's convenient and needed. They have to, otherwise they won't have a business to run anymore. And that _"apology"_ saves them a lot of money.

In the last couple of years I've really started to appreciate solid core values among companies and individuals. They dictate how you act when no one is watching, and how consistent you are with your behavior.
In the case of Kiesel, if you imagine ten difficult situations with employees and customers, and think how Jeff would act and treat people... yeah, I don't really think he'd be an exemplary role model.

I just think that Jeff is an insecure person with power, which makes him act like a bully. When you get an apology video like this - when it's needed and convenient - it's just a part of the pattern. I still won't buy their guitars. Not until the company's culture (and hopefully management) makes a lasting change.


----------



## Jonathan20022

@mbardu, I really hope you take a step back and maybe reflect like Jeff has. The concept of picking your battles and choosing what hill to die on is pretty valuable. You are fighting to the absolute death to point out and recognize the following.

"Kiesel could have done this better, but I am going to also highlight any positive I can in the situation"

Kiesel builds a great instrument at a solid value for an American made Semi Custom Guitar.
He apologized, in a surprising move which is an overall net positive like someone else highlighted.
He reverted his policies and elected to provide some more choice in the matter to prevent mishaps like this from happening.
That's fantastic, and a valuable set of lessons learned. This might be a bit of a leading question, but what issue do you take with critiquing a business and expecting better from them?

IE: What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing: 

Anti-consumer no return policies. And they are anti-consumer because marketing your business as a custom shop and pushing for no return options as your main pitch. Then relying on them as a crutch when they do not perform as expected.
He claims the current situation and workload were the leadup to poor decision making. We've all been there, but the reality is he's always had this kind of reaction even when business is booming and there is less stress involved. I sure would have appreciated some courtesy when my interaction went south, as I'm sure plenty of others would have. I'd still be ordering Kiesels and the Purple Sparkle HSS Aries I was speccing with Chris Hong while my redwood pair was being built would have happened.
Why divert expectations of improvement, like choosing the color of your roast. Is this a bad thing? Why is expecting your *upcharged fretboard *to look like 99% of darker brown necks when you Google Search "Roasted Maple Neck", a bad thing? *Will touch on your PRS example later*
Outlining that the fucking fretboard *MAY *be roasted. When you and I clearly have no way to identify it's moisture content and validating it. Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization. So choosing an anecdotal example of a lighter than the average shade of roasted maple on a production guitar does nothing for your argument. Leaving the only method we as spectators can use, our eyes.
Justifying the matching of the fretboard and neck on the customer's guitar. This isn't a case of color blindness, that neck is way darker than the fretboard. This is an undisputable fact. That leaves room for doubt of it's classification, and guess what could have avoided that? Matching the neck and fretboard better.
So all in all, why are you so against criticism of their process? Do you deny that if Jeff had handled this privately, and apologized to the client while offering either a rebuild or a refund for what is clearly a mistake. But instead of doing what you have in this thread and standing firm for God knows what reason? Because they will build you a base guitar for a decent value?

The neck you chose to point out is not in fact light. The funniest part of the PRS' you decided to show, is that those pictures are lit in pretty bright scenarios making the necks look lighter than they are.

Like this shot, what is this trying to prove? The neck is being showered in light and the bottom left of the photo is darker than the mismatched Kiesel's fretboard. If you used a softbox to light the room instead of natural light, the shade actually blends pretty fairly into PRS' professionaly shot image of the same exact guitar.












But in the end your defense that it *could *be roasted has no foundation. This pic is from Musikraft.com on the topic of roasting, the customer's neck looks like the preroasted image.






Musickraft.com also shows you what LIGHT roasting looks like. "Light" looks like a tinted Fender Neck, if you want to be objective and make the point that the customer received anything close to the two necks below then you're delusional.







I also implore you to find more than a few deceptively lit shots of roasted necks to prove your point. 

https://www.warmoth.com/Pages/ClassicShowcase.aspx?Body=1&Shape=1&Type=1&nWood=20

https://www.google.com/search?q=lig...qeN8Ac&bih=1239&biw=1279#imgrc=QnB-rZiqjwAqdM

But the reality is, your enjoyment of their guitars and the value you feel they bring is separate from the facts I've outlined.


----------



## SlamLiguez

Schooled


----------



## Edika

Well Jeff did address at least all the issues that he had backlash on this specific issue. He didn't take any responsibility for any other issues his company has been criticized off but he at least mentions trying to have a better CS experience. We'll see. But with the whole fake promos and the non sincere apology these two things came to mind:


----------



## lewis

despite what his fanbois in here want to die by, I will never believe this customers fretboard was roasted.
It looks exactly like 3 of my unroasted maple fretboard guitars. Like exactly.

He can claim it was to try and make his company not look like they made a silly error - but in reality it makes them look sillier to me when its obviously a lie.

All the "proof" pictures posted of how maple can still look light when roasted, all still blatantly appear much darker than the customers fretboard.

ergo it was an unroasted fretboard set on a roasted neck. Which not only looked dumb asf, but wasnt what was ordered.
Trying to pretend it was is nonsense.

be like me buying a car and wanting black leather interior.
The dealer gives me one with white leather interior instead and starts claiming it had the "black leather treatment" and we are not completely in control of how black or not interiors get. (when its blatantly just a white interior)

People will honestly just believe anything this douche says.

I agree with a previous post. His apology is just convenient to protect his business. Cleverly placed buzzwords in the apology to hoodwink people into thinking THIS time he means it, is incredibly transparent to me.

and to think, all he had to do was be like "wow we are really sorry we made this error. We must of just looked at your spec sheet wrong and thought you wanted plain maple board. Lets correct that for you ASAP - especially as a valued customer"

not so difficult is it.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

If the "Jeff Flex" didn't become an embarrassing meme he wouldn't have apologized, it's as simple as that. 

Meme magic works.


----------



## Sogradde

When you start your half-assed apology with a bunch of made up excuses for your shitty behavior...


----------



## lewis

Sogradde said:


> When you start your half-assed apology with a bunch of made up excuses for your shitty behavior...


and even say "sorry, but I was right"


----------



## Sogradde

lewis said:


> and even say "sorry, but I was right"


I didn't even make it that far.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> If after 3 explanations you guys still can't see that the sole reason for the PRS example was to deny the claim of "I can absolutely tell that the fretboard is not made of roasted maple because it's light colored" from some people (and nothing more, I was not the one who brought up value...), then I don't know what to do about you guys. I really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt re- that you may at least have been trying to argue in good faith. Clearly misguided though!
> Keep bringing up unrelated arguments, then walking them back when they make no sense, and enjoy the circlejerking. I guess a couple of emojis are easier when you can't actually type a full sentence that makes sense.



Serious Dunning Kruger effect going on here.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> This is 100% true, they do demand the guitars back if you do not end up staying with them. There have been multiple accounts of this, but most aren't public about it for obvious reasons. I know Robby from The Contortionist tried Kiesel for a bit and Cam told me he had to ship the guitar back when he stayed with Ibanez.



So that explains the "artist used" guitars in the GIS section.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Thaeon said:


> Just watched the video. If I were an artist, I would be bailing at this point. I wouldn't want my name associated with someone that isn't willing to take care of the people whose money they subsist off of. Its certainly a flex. And its undeniably misguided. You'd never catch John Suhr, or Tom Anderson, or Sterling Ball treating a customer like that. They all bend over backwards for customers. John Suhr fired his head CS guy for shit like this. Granted, it was the guy's treatment of an artist that got him fired. Still. If your customers can't trust you and you continuously do things to cause increased mistrust, you're going to alienate all of your patronage. I lost interest when Jeff started ranting about being the best built stuff out there. I'd played Suhr, Anderson, Alembic, Ormsby, BFRs, and Conklins at that point. It's literally untrue. Might be the best option for someone based on specs. But, certainly not the best quality instruments. I'll pick a company with amazing customer service and some QC issues, over a company with less QC issues and shit customer service any day of the week. The other builders I mentioned have less QC issues that I know of and always err on the side of the customer to my knowledge. Kiesel has BOTH of the mentioned brand issues. I won't give them any of my cash again.



I got mad when he started taking potshots at other makers. For all the hate i have for the likes of ESP, or the love i have for ibanez, them being Japanese companies means they would rather let their guitars do the talking and they dont take potshots at other makers. I remember a few of his early failbook livestreams he was openly taking shots at "asian" guitar makers, but we all know that ESP/Ibanez/Caparison/Sugi/etc make goddamn amazing instruments for their audiences.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Albake21 said:


> Seriously? So instead of actually confronting their issues, you're okay with them just slyly hiding their issues instead? How do you not see an issue with that? I know Mike Jones, he posts in their a couple times a week. I was spammed today from Facebook notifications about Mike posting in the group about 7 times this morning. If you really can't see an issue with this, you're as blind as the rest of the Kiesel sheep.



I'm with you on the never again buying from them bangwagon. I'm just gonna go find another used Cobran and call it a day.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

electriceye said:


> Wow....that video is UNBELIEVABLE!! Now, NO roasted maple board is white. Ever. EVER. I'm an amateur builder and *I* know that. If you used anything but near-white birdseye (or plain) maple, you're using lower-grade maple - sapwood. No stand-up builder would use that low grade of wood.
> 
> After watching that video, I would never, ever buy a guitar from him. What a dick.
> 
> $20 says Jeff is a Trump supporter. Guaranteed.
> 
> BTW, if those quilted tops are a $400 upcharge, I better get moving. That's some nice margins there, folks.



Jeff is from Commiefornia, definitely not a trump supporter.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Frostbite said:


> I mean this is more then we've gotten from him in the past but this is also the first time it coincided with a comically awful live meltdown and it blowing up in his face. The cynic in my doesn't like how many excuses he has and how he only touches on this one incident and not their overarching issue with returns.
> 
> On the flip side, it's not like the dude is out murdering anyone and doing something that's so completely unforgivable or whatever that he's beyond any sort of redemption. I think this is a half decent apology/starting point, but there needs to be some confidence building going on in the future. There's a lot going on right now. The world is in a spot it hasn't been in in a long time. It's going to effect people differently.
> 
> It's disingenuous to write Kiesel off as a whole because of this and other incidents. This can be a real starting point to make some great changes for them. Only time will tell what actually happens. But if their return structure doesn't change as a whole, it'll be hard to convince me to buy one. They just can't have the laughably awful system they have in place now moving forward.



Doesnt help when the media is out to create a panic over something that doesnt deserve the panic its getting.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Velokki said:


> I know people way too well (not Jeff personally) to spot a pattern.
> 
> Jeff isn't that stupid of a businessman that he'd risk his company, and is willing to do a lot to rectify the situation. But this is really just only PR. This is kinda comparable to an oil company that gladly ruins a town's environment, and uses lawyers to fight the complaining citizens. When the situation goes really public, and politicians start to wake up to the disaster, and the company would be potentially facing 500 million in damages - _then _you would see them making a real _"heartfelt" _apology, offering to clean the town's sewage systems, rebuild and relocate the town's school, and promise never to pollute the environment again. Now, why would the oil company do this? Because it's convenient and needed. They have to, otherwise they won't have a business to run anymore. And that _"apology"_ saves them a lot of money.
> 
> In the last couple of years I've really started to appreciate solid core values among companies and individuals. They dictate how you act when no one is watching, and how consistent you are with your behavior.
> In the case of Kiesel, if you imagine ten difficult situations with employees and customers, and think how Jeff would act and treat people... yeah, I don't really think he'd be an exemplary role model.
> 
> I just think that Jeff is an insecure person with power, which makes him act like a bully. When you get an apology video like this - when it's needed and convenient - it's just a part of the pattern. I still won't buy their guitars. Not until the company's culture (and hopefully management) makes a lasting change.



Look up Minomata syndrome, that fits your apology scenario far more than you can imagine... because it really happened.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

lewis said:


> despite what his fanbois in here want to die by, I will never believe this customers fretboard was roasted.
> It looks exactly like 3 of my unroasted maple fretboard guitars. Like exactly.
> 
> He can claim it was to try and make his company not look like they made a silly error - but in reality it makes them look sillier to me when its obviously a lie.
> 
> All the "proof" pictures posted of how maple can still look light when roasted, all still blatantly appear much darker than the customers fretboard.
> 
> ergo it was an unroasted fretboard set on a roasted neck. Which not only looked dumb asf, but wasnt what was ordered.
> Trying to pretend it was is nonsense.
> 
> be like me buying a car and wanting black leather interior.
> The dealer gives me one with white leather interior instead and starts claiming it had the "black leather treatment" and we are not completely in control of how black or not interiors get. (when its blatantly just a white interior)
> 
> People will honestly just believe anything this douche says.
> 
> I agree with a previous post. His apology is just convenient to protect his business. Cleverly placed buzzwords in the apology to hoodwink people into thinking THIS time he means it, is incredibly transparent to me.
> 
> and to think, all he had to do was be like "wow we are really sorry we made this error. We must of just looked at your spec sheet wrong and thought you wanted plain maple board. Lets correct that for you ASAP - especially as a valued customer"
> 
> not so difficult is it.



My JB200's flame maple fingerboard is darker than that "roasted" one, and my jb200 was bought when it was still carvin.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Carl Kolchak said:


> If the "Jeff Flex" didn't become an embarrassing meme he wouldn't have apologized, it's as simple as that.
> 
> Meme magic works.



Shandalay

Praise kek.


----------



## budda

This guy cracks me up.


----------



## narad

MatiasTolkki said:


> Shandalay
> 
> Praise kek.



Damn, dude. Multiquote.


----------



## Jeff

I expected to come in and see some serious conversation.....turns out it’s mostly one guy talking to himself. 

I found out Kiesel has a new product on the way. They’re branching out!


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> @mbardu, I really hope you take a step back and maybe reflect like Jeff has. The concept of picking your battles and choosing what hill to die on is pretty valuable. You are fighting to the absolute death to point out and recognize the following.
> 
> "Kiesel could have done this better, but I am going to also highlight any positive I can in the situation"
> 
> Kiesel builds a great instrument at a solid value for an American made Semi Custom Guitar.
> He apologized, in a surprising move which is an overall net positive like someone else highlighted.
> He reverted his policies and elected to provide some more choice in the matter to prevent mishaps like this from happening.
> That's fantastic, and a valuable set of lessons learned. This might be a bit of a leading question, but what issue do you take with critiquing a business and expecting better from them?
> 
> IE: What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing:
> 
> Anti-consumer no return policies. And they are anti-consumer because marketing your business as a custom shop and pushing for no return options as your main pitch. Then relying on them as a crutch when they do not perform as expected.
> He claims the current situation and workload were the leadup to poor decision making. We've all been there, but the reality is he's always had this kind of reaction even when business is booming and there is less stress involved. I sure would have appreciated some courtesy when my interaction went south, as I'm sure plenty of others would have. I'd still be ordering Kiesels and the Purple Sparkle HSS Aries I was speccing with Chris Hong while my redwood pair was being built would have happened.
> Why divert expectations of improvement, like choosing the color of your roast. Is this a bad thing? Why is expecting your *upcharged fretboard *to look like 99% of darker brown necks when you Google Search "Roasted Maple Neck", a bad thing? *Will touch on your PRS example later*
> Outlining that the fucking fretboard *MAY *be roasted. When you and I clearly have no way to identify it's moisture content and validating it. Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization. So choosing an anecdotal example of a lighter than the average shade of roasted maple on a production guitar does nothing for your argument. Leaving the only method we as spectators can use, our eyes.
> Justifying the matching of the fretboard and neck on the customer's guitar. This isn't a case of color blindness, that neck is way darker than the fretboard. This is an undisputable fact. That leaves room for doubt of it's classification, and guess what could have avoided that? Matching the neck and fretboard better.



I appreciate the wall of text, but I am just going to go back to your main point "What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing..." to ask you to point me even a single instance where I did that. If you can find even one instance I'll correct it, if not you'll see you're beating the same dead horse as the others (everybody agrees with: 1-very bad match, 2-bad customer service decision, 3-Jeff).
By saying "Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization", you are agreeing exactly with the only point I was making (nobody on the internet can say one way or another) and negating the need for the rest of your argument.
Even in the last page, people are still trying to make that point without any proof and I just like to point out that no, they in fact cannot. Even if you are the proud owner of a random guitar with a regular maple fretboard, you cannot just decide the materials in someone else's guitar through pictures from the internet.
Why this equate to "hur dur this guy is a Kiesel fanboy who likes Jeff and their customer service" (which again, nobody said) is beyond me.



Jeff said:


> Serious Dunning Kruger effect going on here.





Jeff said:


> I expected to come in and see some serious conversation.....turns out it’s mostly one guy talking to himself.
> 
> I found out Kiesel has a new product on the way. They’re branching out!



Well I see you however are still very high in both the reading comprehension and argumented replies categories. But do enlighten me how you contribute to said serious conversation when you can't really formulate a single reply besides a meme effect and a picture.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> I appreciate the wall of text, but I am just going to go back to your main point "What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing..." to ask you to point me even a single instance where I did that. If you can find even one instance I'll correct it, if not you'll see you're beating the same dead horse as the others (everybody agrees with: 1-very bad match, 2-bad customer service decision, 3-Jeff).
> By saying "Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization", you are agreeing exactly with the only point I was making (nobody on the internet can say one way or another) and negating the need for the rest of your argument.
> Even in the last page, people are still trying to make that point without any proof and I just like to point out that no, they in fact cannot. Even if you are the proud owner of a random guitar with a regular maple fretboard, you cannot just decide the materials in someone else's guitar through pictures from the internet.
> Why this equate to "hur dur this guy is a Kiesel fanboy who likes Jeff and their customer service" (which again, nobody said) is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I see you however are still very high in both the reading comprehension and argumented replies categories. But do enlighten me how you contribute to serious conversation when you can't really formulate a single reply besides a meme effect and a picture.



Like I said, you suffer from Dunning Kruger. When you think you’re the smartest guy in the room, but everyone else constantly points out that’s not the case, maybe it’s time to look inward? But by all means, let’s keep throwing out the bullshit. Maybe some of it will stick!


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> Like I said, you suffer from Dunning Kruger. When you think you’re the smartest guy in the room, but everyone else constantly points out that’s not the case, maybe it’s time to look inward? But by all means, let’s keep throwing out the bullshit. Maybe some of it will stick!



The funny thing with the "Dunning Kruger" mention is that it has become so, _so _overused that it's become a pretty funny way to find out the people who actually suffer from it. People who hide behind a "meme effect" they've read once on reddit and now think they're experts (while being unable to separate two pretty distinct ideras) is usually pretty telling.

Keep with your empty sentences, emojis, or strawman argument against imagined things nobody said, knock yourself out- it's what's going to give you the likes . If you want to actually point out anything I said (and quote me) that you have an argument against, I'll be happy to oblige. I just suspect you can't.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> The funny thing is that with the "Dunning Kruger" mention is that it has become so, _so _overused that it's become a pretty funny way to find out the people who actually suffer from it. People who hide behind a "meme effect" they've read once on reddit and now think they're experts (while being unable to separate two pretty distinct ideras) is usually pretty telling.



Ooh, solid point! You should ponder that, whilst looking for more examples of roasted necks! It’s disappointing you can’t see what the actual problem people have with both this situation and Kiesel in general. If you could be pragmatic while still being a fan, it would help the brand move forward. Instead, it just feeds into the problem. Ah well. Many more brands to choose from.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> Ooh, solid point! You should ponder that, whilst looking for more examples of roasted necks! It’s disappointing you can’t see what the actual problem people have with both this situation and Kiesel in general. If you could be pragmatic while still being a fan, it would help the brand move forward. Instead, it just feeds into the problem. Ah well. Many more brands to choose from.



I still fail to see any quote of anything I said you actually have an actual argument against. Please do show.

If by being pragmatic, you mean repeating the same 1/2/3 facts of the matter (bad match/bad customer service/jeffy Jeff) that everyone agrees on, then please feel free to re-read (or maybe actually just _read _the previous pages)- it's there a lot already.

If by being pragmatic your point is "let's close our eyes and pretend that gorgeous piece of quilt is actually ugly, or let's pretend we now can tell which wood is what through pictures on the internet (and other assorted made up criticisms) if it helps hate on Kiesel even more", then no I don't agree with that. They do enough wrong that they should be criticized for and we don't need to invent new things just because- it doesn't help the argument and just shows the one-sided anti-Kiesel sentiment.


----------



## narad

I don't agree with mbardu's points but these are points of a subjective nature. Let's not try to "Dunning Kruger" through every disagreement. It is one of those phrases that's used more incorrectly than correctly these days.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> I don't agree with mbardu's points but these are points of a subjective nature. Let's not try to "Dunning Kruger" through every disagreement. It is one of those phrases that's used more incorrectly than correctly these days.



That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad. 

Did I internet right?


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.
> 
> Did I internet right?



Almost- you just need some Godwin's Law and we'll be all set


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Almost- you just need some Godwin's Law and we'll be all set



And a razor, you always need a razor, and for extra credit, a window or two.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.
> 
> Did I internet right?



Hey, in my day we didn't try to use journal citations to call someone an idiot. You just had to lay it all out there and take your negative rep.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's sounding very Dunning-Kruegery, Narad.
> 
> Did I internet right?



Should have gone with a used prestige.



mbardu said:


> Almost- you just need some Godwin's Law and we'll be all set



This comment is very Poe's Law.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I mean, my thoughts on the situation are simple. Guy bought guitar. Guitar was woefully mismatched (all seem to agree.) Customer was rightfully put off by it (all seem to agree.) Customer brings it up. Jeff insulted the customer, which is unprofessional and uncalled for. (All seem to agree.)

I don't like giving business to someone who insults the people who put money in their pockets, especially when the customer was in fact right. I don't think anyone should. We certainly shouldn't pretend it's okay, especially when the guy has shown a pattern of this behavior. 

Then again, I guess it doesn't matter unless it happens to you. It's all fun and games until you personally get flexed on by a man-child in the wrong.


----------



## Jeff

narad said:


> Hey, in my day we didn't try to use journal citations to call someone an idiot. You just had to lay it all out there and take your negative rep.



You’re right. “Fucking idiot” is more appropriate.


----------



## Jeff

Chokey Chicken said:


> I mean, my thoughts on the situation are simple. Guy bought guitar. Guitar was woefully mismatched (all seem to agree.) Customer was rightfully put off by it (all seem to agree.) Customer brings it up. Jeff insulted the customer, which is unprofessional and uncalled for. (All seem to agree.)
> 
> I don't like giving business to someone who insults the people who put money in their pockets, especially when the customer was in fact right. I don't think anyone should. We certainly shouldn't pretend it's okay, especially when the guy has shown a pattern of this behavior.
> 
> Then again, I guess it doesn't matter unless it happens to you. It's all fun and games until you personally get flexed on by a man-child in the wrong.



It has all happened before, and will happen again. The amount of JeffBro remorse will be equal to the amount of bad press. He’s only sorry because it stirred up a shitstorm.


----------



## spudmunkey

"The follow up"


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> "The follow up"




Regardless of my feelings about Jeff Kiesel, these mob mentality YouTube videos are just stupid. Jeff said enough dumb things in his first video, they don’t need commentary. Jeff apologized in the next, and you either believe it or not.
I felt the same way when people shitpiled Rob Chapman. I didn’t even necessary disagree with the sentiment, but really? You don’t have anything else to do with your time?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

For those who don't have time to read the between the details of amateur psychology hour...



TL;DR 1) - did Kiesel admit the guitar didn't have a roasted maple fingerboard, or is that not of importance anymore?

TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?


----------



## spudmunkey

_MonSTeR_ said:


> TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?



Why should subscriber count be the arbiter of whether his point is valid or not? Fox News is the #1 most watched "news" network.


----------



## Frosty the Snowperson

I saw a video on the Dunning-Kruger Effect, so that pretty much makes me an expert in psychology now.


----------



## mbardu

_MonSTeR_ said:


> TL;DR 1) - did Kiesel admit the guitar didn't have a roasted maple fingerboard, or is that not of importance anymore?



I doubt they will admit that, because I 99% believe it is indeed roasted maple.
Their roasting process is certainly quite light compared to what others do, so it wouldn't surprise me that it can produce very light colored pieces. They say it's because roasting more made the wood too brittle- choose to believe it or not, up to you (in SSO I guess everything Kiesel says is a lie..), but that's their argument.
Not saying anything about the match- everyone agree the match was terrible.



_MonSTeR_ said:


> TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?



He's not particularly popular, but if he's saying bad things about Kiesel, he'll be seen as a prophet here. But just watch for people forgetting all about him the moment he'll say anything positive about Jeff, like in his followup


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> I appreciate the wall of text, but I am just going to go back to your main point "What do you gain as a supporter, by reinforcing..." to ask you to point me even a single instance where I did that. If you can find even one instance I'll correct it, if not you'll see you're beating the same dead horse as the others (everybody agrees with: 1-very bad match, 2-bad customer service decision, 3-Jeff).
> By saying "Jeff is the only person who can validate the neck's categorization", you are agreeing exactly with the only point I was making (nobody on the internet can say one way or another) and negating the need for the rest of your argument.
> Even in the last page, people are still trying to make that point without any proof and I just like to point out that no, they in fact cannot. Even if you are the proud owner of a random guitar with a regular maple fretboard, you cannot just decide the materials in someone else's guitar through pictures from the internet.
> Why this equate to "hur dur this guy is a Kiesel fanboy who likes Jeff and their customer service" (which again, nobody said) is beyond me.



My guy, you absolutely can use your eyes to identify wood in the place of a lack of evidence. It's proven because you will not find an authentic example of roasted maple, even in it's lightest form that is as pale as the Kiesel provided board. This is such a weird point to harp on, the examples Jeff showed in his own Livestream.




You will not find an example of genuinely roasted maple like this, my RG550 Maple Neck/FB is darker than the fretboard on the right. You're 100% being disingenuous by feigning ignorance here, and since you'll never concede on the point and Jeff is probably never going to entertain this argument/train of thought, you're taking advantage of that to pivot your entire argument.

Sure you have the ability to not "lose" the argument, but you look incredibly ignorant saying there's a chance that could be roasted maple when there is reason to doubt it. Do you think the ability to be suspicious or make assumptions has no value?

And since you want "direct quotes", enjoy.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-190#post-5125527

You contradict yourself here, you admit that something is wrong with enough certainty (100%), that it warrants an unwavering response from CS to go above and beyond and just fix the issue. Then the next paragraph is in a subliminal sense *victim blaming*,

"If you want the full return policy with 0 risk, then don't order something non returnable or with a restock fee."

If your guitar arrives in, either poor condition, or not as you requested and agreed. Your return policy as a manufacturer does not matter. You did not deliver, and by law your client has a right to pursue a warranty fix (New Neck like the customer first suggested), or a refund. This is different from buyer's remorse, which is the real reason Option 50 exists, if you custom order an off the menu option and it's delivered as intended. You cannot just change your mind and expect the manufacturer to take a hit on the option.

You play in both camps, you understand that Jeff's response and handling of it was not good, but at the same time you want to make the claim that it technically is still a roasted wood at the same time. That's not how this works, if I order a specific fretwire and get the wrong size I have every right to complain about it. Even if it takes some measurement to prove that what was put on my guitar isn't what I requested.

I'm not spending an entire hour sifting through your comments if you don't have the courtesy to address the points I laid out previously. I have very little faith in how you present your arguments, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.


----------



## soliloquy

So, it appears that folks on the ESP fanpage of Facebook have caught on:


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> My guy, you absolutely can use your eyes to identify wood in the place of a lack of evidence. It's proven because you will not find an authentic example of roasted maple, even in it's lightest form that is as pale as the Kiesel provided board. This is such a weird point to harp on, the examples Jeff showed in his own Livestream.
> 
> View attachment 79807
> 
> 
> You will not find an example of genuinely roasted maple like this, my RG550 Maple Neck/FB is darker than the fretboard on the right. You're 100% being disingenuous by feigning ignorance here, and since you'll never concede on the point and Jeff is probably never going to entertain this argument/train of thought, you're taking advantage of that to pivot your entire argument.
> 
> Sure you have the ability to not "lose" the argument, but you look incredibly ignorant saying there's a chance that could be roasted maple when there is reason to doubt it. Do you think the ability to be suspicious or make assumptions has no value?
> 
> And since you want "direct quotes", enjoy.
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-190#post-5125527
> 
> You contradict yourself here, you admit that something is wrong with enough certainty (100%), that it warrants an unwavering response from CS to go above and beyond and just fix the issue. Then the next paragraph is in a subliminal sense *victim blaming*,
> 
> "If you want the full return policy with 0 risk, then don't order something non returnable or with a restock fee."
> 
> If your guitar arrives in, either poor condition, or not as you requested and agreed. Your return policy as a manufacturer does not matter. You did not deliver, and by law your client has a right to pursue a warranty fix (New Neck like the customer first suggested), or a refund. This is different from buyer's remorse, which is the real reason Option 50 exists, if you custom order an off the menu option and it's delivered as intended. You cannot just change your mind and expect the manufacturer to take a hit on the option.
> 
> You play in both camps, you understand that Jeff's response and handling of it was not good, but at the same time you want to make the claim that it technically is still a roasted wood at the same time. That's not how this works, if I order a specific fretwire and get the wrong size I have every right to complain about it. Even if it takes some measurement to prove that what was put on my guitar isn't what I requested.
> 
> I'm not spending an entire hour sifting through your comments if you don't have the courtesy to address the points I laid out previously. I have very little faith in how you present your arguments, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.



Believe what you want but I am 100% genuine here. I have regular maple boards that _look _darker than the one in the "roasted" picture, but I also have regular maple boards that _look _lighter. I don't use that to pretend that I know 100% what another guitar's board is made of either way. I only argue that we cannot know - which I thought you would agree with since you say it's good to have healthy doubts. Yet my only beef is with people trying to pretend that _they do _know 100% either way through a picture on the internet- and you have no problem at all with those others having 0 doubt on the matter as long as that suits your bias. Is it not required to have reasonable doubt when it goes _against _Kiesel?

I have no idea where you see contradiction when I say "if something is 100% wrong, CS should act". I stand by that.
If Jeff boasted that he sent the client a non-roasted board and that the client would just have to suck it up? Or if it was indeed a measurable objective thing like a different fretwire or wrong headstock? No question at all! But we just don't know, and judging based on a photo with 0 proof, and declaring as fact that they built the guitar with regular maple just because someone's Ibanez maple board is lighter is something else.
And the two ideas above are not mutually exclusive.

I don't get your point about warranty fix either. If the guitar did not play properly, had an issue with electronics (or anything else functional, really), then this would fall under "warranty fix" and would be 100% covered. "Not looking exactly like expected" is not a warranty matter, is it? And it would almost never be (you keep speaking legally) for anything that's one-off or commissioned. With Kiesel, the policy is very clear for "not looking like you expected it to", it is either 1-return it for 0$ if you didn't go with any special options, 2-return it with a restock fee if you had picked options with a restock fee (the case here), or 3-not being able to return it because of specifically picking non returnable options. We'd all like to order custom non returnable options and still have a no-risk return policy, but that's not a thing (and I should say that's not a thing anywhere). Hence my advice to people to not order non-returnable things.
Nothing to do with warranty, which is 5 years on all guitars and which will be honored for absolutely anything wrong outside of cosmetics/looks.

Really- I'm not forcing you to re-read all my comments. But if you truly had a point I didn't address I'd happily respond to it.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

spudmunkey said:


> Why should subscriber count be the arbiter of whether his point is valid or not? Fox News is the #1 most watched "news" network.



What I’m asking, is what basis is there for posting his video in this thread? Why is his video valid? Reliable? Accurate? Or is he just some guy with a microphone and a camera deciding to claim his 15 seconds of fame. Did the guy post his own video in this thread? To use your analogy...How do we know his opinion would be any more valid than that of Fox News? Or to use mine, one of the oversubscribed cats?


----------



## mbardu

_MonSTeR_ said:


> What I’m asking, is what basis is there for posting his video in this thread? Why is his video valid? Reliable? Accurate? Or is he just some guy with a microphone and a camera deciding to claim his 15 seconds of fame. Did the guy post his own video in this thread? To use your analogy...How do we know his opinion would be any more valid than that of Fox News? Or to use mine, one of the oversubscribed cats?



This opinion is not _particularly _valid. He makes some true points by rehashing some known facts, but a lot of things are also quite dishonest in his video so it's a wash. He even had to make his own apology in his followup. The basis to post it here though is that if it goes against Kiesel, anything and everything goes- whereas if you don't 100% sh*t on everything related to that one brand in particular, you are a automatically fanboi and it's not even worth trying to understand your arguments


----------



## Thaeon

Velokki said:


> I know people way too well (not Jeff personally) to spot a pattern.
> 
> Jeff isn't that stupid of a businessman that he'd risk his company, and is willing to do a lot to rectify the situation. But this is really just only PR. This is kinda comparable to an oil company that gladly ruins a town's environment, and uses lawyers to fight the complaining citizens. When the situation goes really public, and politicians start to wake up to the disaster, and the company would be potentially facing 500 million in damages - _then _you would see them making a real _"heartfelt" _apology, offering to clean the town's sewage systems, rebuild and relocate the town's school, and promise never to pollute the environment again. Now, why would the oil company do this? Because it's convenient and needed. They have to, otherwise they won't have a business to run anymore. And that _"apology"_ saves them a lot of money.
> 
> In the last couple of years I've really started to appreciate solid core values among companies and individuals. They dictate how you act when no one is watching, and how consistent you are with your behavior.
> In the case of Kiesel, if you imagine ten difficult situations with employees and customers, and think how Jeff would act and treat people... yeah, I don't really think he'd be an exemplary role model.
> 
> I just think that Jeff is an insecure person with power, which makes him act like a bully. When you get an apology video like this - when it's needed and convenient - it's just a part of the pattern. I still won't buy their guitars. Not until the company's culture (and hopefully management) makes a lasting change.



He's not. You can only view people based on their actions, not based on their intentions. To prepare yourself for an interaction based on what they say rather than how they act is foolhardy. Jeff IS an asshole until he proves otherwise.



mbardu said:


> Believe what you want but I am 100% genuine here. I have regular maple boards that _look _darker than the one in the "roasted" picture, but I also have regular maple boards that _look _lighter. I don't use that to pretend that I know 100% what another guitar's board is made of either way. I only argue that we cannot know - which I thought you would agree with since you say it's good to have healthy doubts. Yet my only beef is with people trying to pretend that _they do _know 100% either way through a picture on the internet- and you have no problem at all with those others having 0 doubt on the matter as long as that suits your bias. Is it not required to have reasonable doubt when it goes _against _Kiesel?
> 
> I have no idea where you see contradiction when I say "if something is 100% wrong, CS should act". I stand by that.
> If Jeff boasted that he sent the client a non-roasted board and that the client would just have to suck it up? Or if it was indeed a measurable objective thing like a different fretwire or wrong headstock? No question at all! But we just don't know, and judging based on a photo with 0 proof, and declaring as fact that they built the guitar with regular maple just because someone's Ibanez maple board is lighter is something else.
> And the two ideas above are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I don't get your point about warranty fix either. If the guitar did not play properly, had an issue with electronics (or anything else functional, really), then this would fall under "warranty fix" and would be 100% covered. "Not looking exactly like expected" is not a warranty matter, is it? And it would almost never be (you keep speaking legally) for anything that's one-off or commissioned. With Kiesel, the policy is very clear for "not looking like you expected it to", it is either 1-return it for 0$ if you didn't go with any special options, 2-return it with a restock fee if you had picked options with a restock fee (the case here), or 3-not being able to return it because of specifically picking non returnable options. We'd all like to order custom non returnable options and still have a no-risk return policy, but that's not a thing (and I should say that's not a thing anywhere). Hence my advice to people to not order non-returnable things.
> Nothing to do with warranty, which is 5 years on all guitars and which will be honored for absolutely anything wrong outside of cosmetics/looks.
> 
> Really- I'm not forcing you to re-read all my comments. But if you truly had a point I didn't address I'd happily respond to it.



Go do a google search for "Kiesel Roasted Maple Fretboards" and look at every one that Kiesel photographed themselves. They're all nearly perfectly consistent with what would visibly be considered Roasted Maple. Its OBVIOUS. There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question whether or not it was roasted, you need glasses.

Here, I did it for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=kie...wKHWxlCf8Q9QEwAnoECAkQFw#imgrc=U67UYgJOrNMoUM:


----------



## lewis

mbardu said:


> Believe what you want but I am 100% genuine here. I have regular maple boards that _look _darker than the one in the "roasted" picture, but I also have regular maple boards that _look _lighter. I don't use that to pretend that I know 100% what another guitar's board is made of either way. I only argue that we cannot know - which I thought you would agree with since you say it's good to have healthy doubts. Yet my only beef is with people trying to pretend that _they do _know 100% either way through a picture on the internet- and you have no problem at all with those others having 0 doubt on the matter as long as that suits your bias. Is it not required to have reasonable doubt when it goes _against _Kiesel?
> 
> I have no idea where you see contradiction when I say "if something is 100% wrong, CS should act". I stand by that.
> If Jeff boasted that he sent the client a non-roasted board and that the client would just have to suck it up? Or if it was indeed a measurable objective thing like a different fretwire or wrong headstock? No question at all! But we just don't know, and judging based on a photo with 0 proof, and declaring as fact that they built the guitar with regular maple just because someone's Ibanez maple board is lighter is something else.
> And the two ideas above are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I don't get your point about warranty fix either. If the guitar did not play properly, had an issue with electronics (or anything else functional, really), then this would fall under "warranty fix" and would be 100% covered. "Not looking exactly like expected" is not a warranty matter, is it? And it would almost never be (you keep speaking legally) for anything that's one-off or commissioned. With Kiesel, the policy is very clear for "not looking like you expected it to", it is either 1-return it for 0$ if you didn't go with any special options, 2-return it with a restock fee if you had picked options with a restock fee (the case here), or 3-not being able to return it because of specifically picking non returnable options. We'd all like to order custom non returnable options and still have a no-risk return policy, but that's not a thing (and I should say that's not a thing anywhere). Hence my advice to people to not order non-returnable things.
> Nothing to do with warranty, which is 5 years on all guitars and which will be honored for absolutely anything wrong outside of cosmetics/looks.
> 
> Really- I'm not forcing you to re-read all my comments. But if you truly had a point I didn't address I'd happily respond to it.



Could you provide daytime pictures of said maple fretboards then?


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> Go do a google search for "Kiesel Roasted Maple Fretboards" and look at every one that Kiesel photographed themselves. They're all nearly perfectly consistent with what would visibly be considered Roasted Maple. Its OBVIOUS. There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question whether or not it was roasted, you need glasses.
> 
> Here, I did it for you:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=kiesel+roasted+maple+fretboard&sxsrf=ALeKk02XCnEhcaRqQng_BdVO3sG5Czn2tw:1587663916237&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=U67UYgJOrNMoUM%3A%2CuAAl_cXLHrhHjM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQnbmkLQUlPBWFQazYX2IDv_kCN6Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihyv_9jP_oAhVPMqwKHWxlCf8Q9QEwAnoECAkQFw#imgrc=U67UYgJOrNMoUM:



Oh I see, so when it's against Kiesel, we can pull google images (including images that have quite light fretboards btw), but when it's to show others such as PRS then it's not allowed? What are the rules?

Plus I suggest you think about the consistency of your reply. Your two sentences next to each other "There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question" even directly contradict each other.

I'm the one saying there is room for questioning, and there is no certainty one way or the other. I say it could be either way. You are the one pretending that you absolutely know that it is not roasted (you literally say "There's not one that leaves room for questioning" just based on google images) without having built or seen the guitar in person. That's the difference.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I was gonna reply, but holy shit I'm done. Pure delusion, the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple. And the photos you used were hyper exposed or drowned in natural light, your search for a "light" roasted maple board is fraudulent and deceptive. 

His point is that Kiesel themselves constantly deliver a spectrum of shades for Roasted Maple, this lies outside of that spectrum since you cannot reliably find ANY example of roasted maple that pale to backup your position.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I was gonna reply, but holy shit I'm done. Pure delusion, the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple. And the photos you used were hyper exposed or drowned in natural light, your search for a "light" roasted maple board is fraudulent and deceptive.



Moving the goalposts... "the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple" has no bearing on whether roasted maple can be light or not.
It's a separate discussion (is the matching good on the Kiesel? No it's not) on which everyone is in agreement.



Jonathan20022 said:


> His point is that Kiesel themselves constantly deliver a spectrum of shades for Roasted Maple, this lies outside of that spectrum since you cannot reliably find ANY example of roasted maple that pale to backup your position.



Yes this is extremely white compared to others. Obviously it is. That's why there is so much drama- if it was a middling board, it would obviously not raise attention.
But because it's at an extreme end of the spectrum, people on a forum can know with absolute certainty (and better than the client and Kiesel) whether it's actually roasted maple? This makes no sense and goes exactly against your supposed "doubt and questioning is important". That part is clearly forgotten from your perspective when considering arguments not necessarily shitting on Kiesel. "It looks light? Kiesel must be liars, no doubt or questioning about it".


----------



## jbcrazy

I don't think people get this. It doesn't matter if the guitar had a roasted maple board or not. A repeat customer who bought a bunch of your guitars isn't happy with the product. You sack up and treat that customer like they're always right. Apparently this dude has 30 carvin/kiesel guitars? Come on man. It's not that complicated. You don't belittle them. Question them. Or whatever. Just make them happy. He has like a shit load of your guitars... wtf.


----------



## Thaeon

So first its only Jeff can tell the truth, now its there's room for questions. I'm saying that there is one instance. THAT specific video where a roasted board is THAT light. Claimed by the person running the company who made it. He's the one with something to lose. Yet every other picture of any of them that are roasted are MANY shades darker than the one in the video in question. It doesn't match the neck. Roasted (poorly) or not, it absolutely looks bad for him. ESPECIALLY in light of all of the previous work out there that is 'roasted'. If you can't be as consistent with the material as other builders, maybe you shouldn't offer the material. He could have at the very least, had someone call the customer and give him the option then when it was noticed. This makes me want to talk about how he robbed people's finished guitars for parts so that he could get more guitars ready for NAMM. Its poor planning, poor business practice, and just plain awful customer service. Product should be consistent. Even he talks about how the consistency of CNC is better than hand tooled guitars. 

What Kiesel needs, is consistency in QC (this was poor QC), consistency in customer care (this was poor customer care. AGAIN), and consistency in businsess ethics (this was handled ethically poorly). These three things would solve their issues.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Moving the goalposts... "the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple" has no bearing on whether roasted maple can be light or not.
> It's a separate discussion (is the matching good on the Kiesel? No it's not) on which everyone is in agreement.
> 
> Yes this is extremely white compared to others. Obviously it is. That's why there is so much drama- if it was a middling board, it would obviously not raise attention.
> But because it's at an extreme end of the spectrum, people on a forum can know with absolute certainty (and better than the client and Kiesel) whether it's actually roasted maple? This makes no sense and goes exactly against your supposed "doubt and questioning is important". That part is clearly forgotten from your perspective when considering arguments not necessarily shitting on Kiesel. "It looks light? Kiesel must be liars, no doubt or questioning about it".



You're as disingenuous as they come, here's what you provided to ascertain that this "might" be roasted. Good one.


----------



## Thaeon

To address the PRS issue:



mbardu said:


> Oh I see, so when it's against Kiesel, we can pull google images (including images that have quite light fretboards btw), but when it's to show others such as PRS then it's not allowed? What are the rules?
> 
> Plus I suggest you think about the consistency of your reply. Your two sentences next to each other "There's not one that leaves room for questioning. If you can look at all of that preponderance of evidence, and still claim there isn't room to question" even directly contradict each other.
> 
> I'm the one saying there is room for questioning, and there is no certainty one way or the other. I say it could be either way. You are the one pretending that you absolutely know that it is not roasted (you literally say "There's not one that leaves room for questioning" just based on google images) without having built or seen the guitar in person. That's the difference.



Better to use like for like examples. Different roasting methods means different results. Comparing Kiesel to Kiesel is the logical answer. Comparing Kiesel to a different kiln and roasting process is not the same.



mbardu said:


> Moving the goalposts... "the PRS you posted is consistent despite being two separate pieces of roasted maple" has no bearing on whether roasted maple can be light or not.
> It's a separate discussion (is the matching good on the Kiesel? No it's not) on which everyone is in agreement.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes this is extremely white compared to others. Obviously it is. That's why there is so much drama- if it was a middling board, it would obviously not raise attention.
> But because it's at an extreme end of the spectrum, people on a forum can know with absolute certainty (and better than the client and Kiesel) whether it's actually roasted maple? This makes no sense and goes exactly against your supposed "doubt and questioning is important". That part is clearly forgotten from your perspective when considering arguments not necessarily shitting on Kiesel. "It looks light? Kiesel must be liars, no doubt or questioning about it".



Yes. And other pictures of the same guitar, as stated earlier showed that the board and neck are the same color. The difference didn't exist. It was the angle of the light washing out the image in certain places. Invalid comparison.


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> So first its only Jeff can tell the truth, now its there's room for questions.



Please point me to where I said that? Or where I said there was no room for questions or that I could guarantee it was roasted?
I don't know anymore than others here, the only difference is I don't pretend to know. 
In your posts however, you do pretend to know with absolutely certainty based on Google images.



Thaeon said:


> What Kiesel needs, is consistency in QC (this was poor QC), consistency in customer care (this was poor customer care. AGAIN), and consistency in businsess ethics (this was handled ethically poorly). These three things would solve their issues.



The thing is I agree with all those. From the start.
There are enough arguments to criticize the brand without imagining new things and armchair experts pretending we can tell a fretboard material from a picture on the internet.


----------



## Thaeon

jbcrazy said:


> I don't think people get this. It doesn't matter if the guitar had a roasted maple board or not. A repeat customer who bought a bunch of your guitars isn't happy with the product. You sack up and treat that customer like they're always right. Apparently this dude has 30 carvin/kiesel guitars? Come on man. It's not that complicated. You don't belittle them. Question them. Or whatever. Just make them happy. He has like a shit load of your guitars... wtf.



Shouldn't matter if its their 50th or their 1st. Customer is right. Period.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> You're as disingenuous as they come, here's what you provided to ascertain that this "might" be roasted. Good one.



And I'll keep saying the same thing. It might and it might not. In my book, saying "it might be roasted, it might not" is way more honest and humble than saying outright that you and others know better with absolute certainty.

You're the one saying things like "we can't necessarily judge", or "the light is too washed out in this particular picture" when it fits your point- yet you are the one pretending you know for sure now and trying to pull the colors to prove your point. Are you going to talk about how the Kiesel side-by-side picture is actually the one that is overexposed enough to clip the channels in some places on the boards? No because that would not go against Kiesel. Are you going to accept there is even a slight chance that the board may be roasted? And that maybe we're talking about it because it's at an _extreme _end of the color spectrum? No because reasonable doubt is only valid when it's against Kiesel.

What's more disingenuous?


----------



## bostjan

I can't even tell what everyone is arguing about anymore or why it should matter.  We all agree (including Jeff Kiesel, now, apparently) that the end product turned out looking like shit.


----------



## mbardu

bostjan said:


> I can't even tell what everyone is arguing about anymore or why it should matter.  We all agree (including Jeff Kiesel, now, apparently) that the end product turned out looking like shit.



Actually the guitar itself looked pretty good. Wouldn't be the first time the headstock/fretboard/neck don't match on a guitar and yet still look good. 
But definitely not what the client had in mind, and definitely not what you'd think of when thinking of matched roasted neck and fretboard. 
Looks like there was literally 0 effort put into matching. Everything after that- handled very _very _poorly and _way _too publicly.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> And I'll keep saying the same thing. It might and it might not. In my book, saying "it might be roasted, it might not" is way more honest and humble than saying outright that you and others know better with absolute certainty.
> 
> You're the one saying things like "we can't necessarily judge", or "the light is too washed out in this particular picture" when it fits your point- yet you are the one pretending you know for sure now and trying to pull the colors to prove your point. Are you going to talk about how the Kiesel side-by-side picture is actually the one that is overexposed enough to clip the channels in some places on the boards? No because that would not go against Kiesel. Are you going to accept there is even a slight chance that the board may be roasted? And that maybe we're talking about it because it's at an _extreme _end of the color spectrum? No because reasonable doubt is only valid when it's against Kiesel.
> 
> What's more disingenuous?



Your photos show no bearing on your point, IE: There is no active comparison other than you thinking you found some roasted boards that are closer to pale blonde than a light caramel.

He displays his unroasted maple guitar next to his roasted maple guitar. Even if the photo was overexposed, BOTH guitars would be affected equally. That is why the lighting conditions matter less in his photo, coming from a photographer who can tell that that's probably a phone camera image.

It's funny that you seem to think I have some bias because I won't give Kiesel some leverage on this, I've admitted that they make good guitars. I still half regret selling my Vader 8 because no other 8 string on the market works for me, but pretending like anyone who isn't in favor of any of this is acting like a childish hater is immature itself.


----------



## bostjan

mbardu said:


> Actually the guitar itself looked pretty good. Wouldn't be the first time the headstock/fretboard/neck don't match on a guitar and yet still look good.
> But definitely not what the client had in mind, and definitely not what you'd think of when thinking of matched roasted neck and fretboard.
> Looks like there was literally 0 effort put into matching. Everything after that- handled very _very _poorly and _way _too publicly.




 I mean, I disagree about how good or how shit it looks, which I think we can agree is subjective.

Likewise, the degree of roastedness or non-roastedness of the fretboard, to me, seems like a pretty crazy thing to argue over for this long. But the most recent two posts in the thread prove me wrong, so, I guess I'll just duck out for now...


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Your photos show no bearing on your point, IE: There is no active comparison other than you thinking you found some roasted boards that are closer to pale blonde than a light caramel.
> 
> Even if the Customer's photo was overexposed, he displays his unroasted maple guitar next to his roasted maple guitar. Even if the photo was overexposed, BOTH guitars would be affected equally. That is why the lighting conditions matter less in his photo, coming from a photographer who can tell that that's probably a phone camera image.
> 
> It's funny that you seem to think I have some bias because I won't give Kiesel some leverage on this, I've admitted that they make good guitars. I still half regret selling my Vader 8 because no other 8 string on the market works for me, but pretending like anyone who isn't in favor of any of this is a childish hater is immature.



Re: the pictures, you have to decide. Either you want to compare the pictures (I'm not the one who put them side by side), in which case we can talk about differences in lightning between them. Or you don't want to compare the pictures, so don't put them side by side, otherwise you're the one being disingenuous. Can't have it both ways, depending on what best serves your purpose- that's not honest.
If you want to talk about only the Kiesel side-by-side, the question is whether a regular maple board could look lighter than a roasted one from a different piece of wood- and I believe it could, especially considering the Kiesel roasting process is lighter than many. But you'll notice I only say "it could" because I'm not going to pretend to know for sure, unlike the people who pretend to know for sure that it is not roasted.

Re: bias, the only reason why I think you have bias is because you can't accept there is even a slight chance that the board may be roasted (while nobody here has seen the guitar), while you were supposedly the advocate for "let's keep an open questioning mind". Double standards. And every time it comes up, you bring other unrelated arguments (iT's NoT wElL mAtChEd which a settled strawman) to divert the point. Disingenuous.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Re: the pictures, you have to decide. Either you want to compare the pictures (I'm not the one who put them side by side), in which case we can talk about differences in lightning between them. Or you don't want to compare the pictures, so don't put them side by side, otherwise you're the one being disingenuous. Can't have it both ways, depending on what best serves your purpose- that's not honest.
> If you want to talk about only the Kiesel side-by-side, the question is whether a regular maple board could look lighter than a roasted one starting from a difference piece of wood- and I believe it could, especially considering the Kiesel roasting process is lighter than many. But you'll notice I only say "it could" because I'm not going to pretend to know for sure, unlike the people who pretend to know for sure that it is not roasted.
> 
> Re: bias, the only reason why I think you have bias is because you can't accept there is even a slight chance that the board may be roasted (while nobody here has seen the guitar), while you were supposedly the advocate for "let's keep an open questioning mind". Double standards. And every time it comes up, you bring other unrelated arguments (iT's NoT wElL mAtChEd that's a settled strawman) to divert the point. Disingenuous.



I clearly mention that we cannot say with certainty until the moisture level is checked against standards of roasted maple, and that roasted maple is never that light. 

I'll kindly ask you to point to a time where I said there is not a single chance in hell it could be roasted. Only that historically we have more evidence for the unroasted camp than the camp that says it is roasted.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I clearly mention that we cannot say with certainty until the moisture level is checked against standards of roasted maple, and that roasted maple is never that light.
> 
> I'll kindly ask you to point to a time where I said there is not a single chance in hell it could be roasted. Only that historically we have more evidence for the unroasted camp than the camp that says it is roasted.



Oh I don't need to. If you are saying "it might be roasted or not roasted, we just don't know" then I am fine with that.
It was just not apparent in your recent posts but that's OK if you clarify now.


----------



## prlgmnr

This is hands down the longest argument I've ever seen in which I can't tell what anyone is actually arguing about.


----------



## mlp187

Well here I was thinking about how I might never buy a kiesel, then Thaeon posts a link full of sexiness like this:


----------



## Albake21

Guys seriously, who cares anymore, it's very obvious this argument will be endless. Everything in the current situation has been solved. The customer is getting a brand new neck, Jeff owned up to his issues, and even their policy has changed on it. Let's move forward and see how or if Kiesel will change. That's all I care about now.


----------



## Thaeon

mlp187 said:


> Well here I was thinking about how I might never buy a kiesel, then Thaeon posts a link full of sexiness like this:



I do what I can.


----------



## prlgmnr

Would be interesting to see how much each occurrence of one of these controversies causes sales to spike.


----------



## mbardu

bostjan said:


> Likewise, the degree of roastedness or non-roastedness of the fretboard, to me, seems like a pretty crazy thing to argue over for this long. But the most recent two posts in the thread prove me wrong, so, I guess I'll just duck out for now...



To me it's not specifically the roasted maple per se. It's something pretty fundamental with the Kiesel process I could see on other options too.
You order something from them, and the great thing is that you can return it no questions asked for a full refund if you don't like it.
Exceptions are: 1-some options come with a restocking fee (like is the case here), or 2-some options are literally non-returnable. You have warnings when ordering in either case. A lot of issues in the last couple of years with Kiesel have been people ordering custom non-returnable finishes and being disappointed, not being able to return them. Anything cosmetic is however specifically not something Kiesel commits to and they make it very clear. That's why Kiesel is not the brand I recommend to people who absolutely must have something that looks exactly like they have in their mind. For that, order a PRS private stock, an Aristides, or something off the rack from Sweetwater.

But sometimes _they _screw up and send you a build with a guitar that has some wrong specs compared to what you ordered. Like wrong finish, or wrong headstock. I've had that happen to me. And when that's the case, if it's their fault, it takes precedence over other considerations, and they should accept returns or refund even if it was supposed to be non-returnable. They have to deliver on the order as per the specs (again, exact looks being the exception- exact looks is not something I really care about) or take it back.

So either that's still true (and it was a roasted that didn't look like the client asked for that they handled very _very _poorly) and nothing has changed.
Or they have started to send random-specced guitars to buyers and take zero responsibility for it.
The latter, I have literally never seen happen (except in SSO's collective fever dreams), but the day it happens, it would definitely mean I would not recommend the brand _at all _anymore.


----------



## Samark

Really liking this


----------



## mbardu

prlgmnr said:


> This is hands down the longest argument I've ever seen in which I can't tell what anyone is actually arguing about.



I aim to please


----------



## bostjan

prlgmnr said:


> This is hands down the longest argument I've ever seen in which I can't tell what anyone is actually arguing about.



Pfft, no it's not!


----------



## Alberto7

If you guys hadn't pointed it out, I could have sworn that Dunning-Kruger was a kind of sandwich or a kind of sausage. I really don't internet enough these days.

As for Jeff Kiesel, I guess it's good that an apology was issued, but his public bashing of a customer should NOT have happened in the first place, regardless of whether the guy was right or wrong. If it had been a one time thing, then I'd be wary, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. However, there's enough evidence of him constantly being a pompous d*ck over the last few years. I'd still rather my money went elsewhere, based on that alone. But that's me.


----------



## spudmunkey

bostjan said:


> Pfft, no it's not!



Sounds like something Hitler woud say.


----------



## DiezelMonster

_MonSTeR_ said:


> For those who don't have time to read the between the details of amateur psychology hour...
> 
> 
> 
> TL;DR 1) - did Kiesel admit the guitar didn't have a roasted maple fingerboard, or is that not of importance anymore?
> 
> TL;DR 2) - I'm completely unfamiliar with this KDH guy? Who actually is he? A member here or just another random long haired dude looking to make a name for himself? There are cats with 100 times more subscribers than he has, so why do we as SSO care what he has to say on the matter?




Do you mean the animal, cats? Cats on youtube have more followers? I think my brain is broken.


----------



## spudmunkey

Samark said:


> Really liking this



That was a "deal of the day" sort of thing, $1400 shipped with case, posted on the 20th. It sold on the 21st.


----------



## spudmunkey

DiezelMonster said:


> Do you mean the animal, cats? Cats on youtube have more followers? I think my brain is broken.


My girlfriend's Instagram account for her cat has 1,085 followers. I have 2. My girlfriend and my mom.


----------



## DiezelMonster

spudmunkey said:


> My girlfriend's Instagram account for her cat has 1,085 followers. I have 2. My girlfriend and my mom.




Wow.....both of those are sad statements.


----------



## lewis

I vote we call it a day on this now. Agree to disagree on some parts of this debate and move on.

For the most part we all agreed about the more important stuff (the customer service) and it was the more trivial Fretboard treatment or not that seemed to cause the longest debate in here. (that I contributed towards)

We have all had our say on it (passionately at that) so lets just legit move on.

Or at the very least give Kiesel a few months and see what happens in that time


----------



## StevenC

bostjan said:


> Pfft, no it's not!


That was never 5 minutes!


----------



## spudmunkey

StevenC said:


> That was never 5 minutes!


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> My girlfriend's Instagram account for her cat has 1,085 followers. I have 2. My girlfriend and my mom.


Not even her cat?


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> Not even her cat?



Thankfully, no.


----------



## Thaeon

@spudmunkey sounds like your girlfriends cat needs to start tagging you in posts. Maybe like @jeffkieselsarm. Only @spudmonkeysbigtoe or something.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

Jeff said:


> I expected to come in and see some serious conversation.....turns out it’s mostly one guy talking to himself.
> 
> I found out Kiesel has a new product on the way. They’re branching out!



I just replied to stuff i saw, cant help that you didnt bother replying to anything i said.


----------



## MatiasTolkki

spudmunkey said:


> Why should subscriber count be the arbiter of whether his point is valid or not? Fox News is the #1 most watched "news" network.



At least tucker carlson is half way decent, he's all i care about anyway from that network.



mbardu said:


> I doubt they will admit that, because I 99% believe it is indeed roasted maple.
> Their roasting process is certainly quite light compared to what others do, so it wouldn't surprise me that it can produce very light colored pieces. They say it's because roasting more made the wood too brittle- choose to believe it or not, up to you (in SSO I guess everything Kiesel says is a lie..), but that's their argument.
> Not saying anything about the match- everyone agree the match was terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> He's not particularly popular, but if he's saying bad things about Kiesel, he'll be seen as a prophet here. But just watch for people forgetting all about him the moment he'll say anything positive about Jeff, like in his followup



He got shitpiled by Rob Chapman fans HARD because he went against their god, so much so that they were basically false flagging him to get his channel deleted. Was he hyperbolic in his Chapman attack? Sure there was a lot of hyperbole in it, but the fact is he brought attention to a fucked up situation and Chapman and his cult followers absolutely shit all over him, for daring to criticize their god.


----------



## Jeff

MatiasTolkki said:


> I just replied to stuff i saw, cant help that you didnt bother replying to anything i said.



I didn’t want to interrupt; you seemed to be having a nice conversation with yourself.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

DiezelMonster said:


> Do you mean the animal, cats? Cats on youtube have more followers? I think my brain is broken.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maru_(cat)

Cats are serious business on the internet.


----------



## DiezelMonster

Chokey Chicken said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maru_(cat)
> 
> Cats are serious business on the internet.



I live in a bubble. Even more so now.


----------



## Thaeon

DiezelMonster said:


> I live in a bubble. Even more so now.



If you like cats, Maru videos are pretty hard to resist.


----------



## mbardu

I like a box


----------



## soliloquy

am i the only that is finding this a bit ridiculous that we are still discussing the lousy company that become of Carvin legacy? 
The initial post was over 3 years ago (Mar 7, 2017), where we all were disgusted by how the company handled the situation.
from that point onwards, its not the first time where the company was caught in cross fire from people online. 
the title says it clearly 'kiesel, NEVER AGAIN'. 

it means that those who are supporting the company are wasting their breath (or finger dexterity as they type away online) to support the company. 
It also means that those who are bashing the company are kind of beating a dead horse. 

provided that carvin/kiesel is an online company, those who are willing to purchase a guitar site unseen, will come across one, or many nay-sayers online. Be it youtube, or gearpage, ss.org, or several other pages. 

No one is exactly saying that keisel guitars are lousy because they are using subpar material, or they fall apart, or they dont play any better than an SX guitar. If the instrument is built decently, we know that it is a solid build and can hold its own against a lot of other guitars out there. We also know that Kiesel is offering a great bang for the buck, and there aren't that many companies out there that are offering the material and options that kiesel is offering. 

yet, to go through that route, we are risking getting a lemon. Which, just like any other company, is expected. However, we are also risking dealing with Jeff's pitchfork attitude. 

I'm happy I'm no longer dealing with that company, and dont want to be associated with their gear. That brings me peace. 

why are we wasting our brain cells arguing something that may not have a conclusion to it.

you support the brands you believe in. I wont support brands I dont believe in. 
live and let live?


----------



## bostjan

Thaeon said:


> If you like cats, Maru videos are pretty hard to resist.





mbardu said:


> I like a box





bostjan said:


> I like quantum mechanics





Erwin Schrödinger said:


> hmmm...


----------



## oracles

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...pth-look-at-build-quality-pics-added.2141471/

Oh look, more issues.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Yikes, those tuners and that truss rod. Feelsbadman.


----------



## DiezelMonster

Thaeon said:


> If you like cats, Maru videos are pretty hard to resist.




I do not like cats, "Basically just pieces of loneliness that are in your apartment"


----------



## diagrammatiks

oracles said:


> https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...pth-look-at-build-quality-pics-added.2141471/
> 
> Oh look, more issues.



some of the comments on that thread really drive home the point that kiesels really are baby's first boutique guitar.


----------



## lewis

oracles said:


> https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...pth-look-at-build-quality-pics-added.2141471/
> 
> Oh look, more issues.


Oh jesus christ.

That neck/trussrod/tuners are horrendous :O

how did that leave the factory?!


----------



## spudmunkey

I've only made it a couple pages in, but I'm really confused by his comment about the neck pocket. He said his first order of business was to re-seat the neck, so that it's tighter in the pocket, and talks about how if if there's a gap or sides of the pocket, that it makes it so that more surfaces touch...

...but that doesn't make any sense because Kiesel's neck heel is open-ended. The end of the neck pocket is the pickup route. Am i missing something? it sounds like he loosened the neck, let the string tension pull the neck "into position", which isn't where it's supposed to be, and then re-tightned.


----------



## oneblackened

spudmunkey said:


> I've only made it a couple pages in, but I'm really confused by his comment about the neck pocket. He said his first order of business was to re-seat the neck, so that it's tighter in the pocket, and talks about how if if there's a gap or sides of the pocket, that it makes it so that more surfaces touch...
> 
> ...but that doesn't make any sense because Kiesel's neck heel is open-ended. The end of the neck pocket is the pickup route. Am i missing something? it sounds like he loosened the neck, let the string tension pull the neck "into position", which isn't where it's supposed to be, and then re-tightned.


I consider that kind of neck pocket to be a poor design. There's nothing for the neck to rest against and over time it will shift under tension. Is it a valid complaint? Eh, no, not really. Is it an absolute shitshow of a design choice? You bet your ass it is.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

There seems to be lots of posts for and against adjusting the neck like that. 

I'm mostly confused how he's had so many problems with them before from crooked bridges to wood shrinking and a truss rod with no more room like this one yet he keeps ordering.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

ehhh some of his complaints are super nitpicky and I've never experienced them at all on my builds. I mean I've owned 8 kiesels and 1 carvin from right before they changed names. They all use switchcraft jacks (which are quite good ime, I use em on my home builds), and the wiring has never been a rat's nest. They do cheap out on the pots and switches (alpha pots iirc) they use, but honestly most people wouldn't notice that. I never had anything close to his wobbly tuner shit happen with my dc600, and mine are held in by pins just like that. Either someone fudged the pin holes or forgot some extra spacer washers (possible), or they somehow fucked up tightening the nuts on the tuners (highly unlikely ime). The neck joint bullshit cracks me up though.


----------



## bostjan

Lorcan Ward said:


> There seems to be lots of posts for and against adjusting the neck like that.
> 
> I'm mostly confused how he's had so many problems with them before from crooked bridges to wood shrinking and a truss rod with no more room like this one yet he keeps ordering.



I suppose if you adjust the neck angle and intonation afterwards, at worst, it's a waste of time and at best it gives you a tiny bit more stability.

But, I agree. I had the same questions you brought up. Of course, I say that as, myself, someone who did the same thing with car brand loyalty years ago.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> ehhh some of his complaints are super nitpicky and I've never experienced them at all on my builds. I mean I've owned 8 kiesels and 1 carvin from right before they changed names. They all use switchcraft jacks (which are quite good ime, I use em on my home builds), and the wiring has never been a rat's nest. They do cheap out on the pots and switches (alpha pots iirc) they use, but honestly most people wouldn't notice that. I never had anything close to his wobbly tuner shit happen with my dc600, and mine are held in by pins just like that. Either someone fudged the pin holes or forgot some extra spacer washers (possible), or they somehow fucked up tightening the nuts on the tuners (highly unlikely ime). The neck joint bullshit cracks me up though.



They've also upgrated their 5-way switch to an Oak Grigsby in the last few months, which is supposed to be leaps and bounds better, and I like the pots on both my Carvin and Kiesel better than the CTS pots I bought for one of my other guitars. *shrugs*

It also seems like he's associating "tight" knobs with low quality...but I absolutely, 10/10, prefer a tighter-feeling knob than one that spins too easily, after bumping easy-to-turn knobs out-of-whack way too often over the years. In that that regards, the 4 knobs on my two from Carvin/kiesel all feel identical, while of the 3 CTS pots I put in my other guitar all feel different, with one being way too 'free' for my own taste.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> They've also upgrated their 5-way switch to an Oak Grigsby in the last few months, which is supposed to be leaps and bounds better, and I like the pots on both my Carvin and Kiesel better than the CTS pots I bought for one of my other guitars. *shrugs*
> 
> It also seems like he's associating "tight" knobs with low quality...but I absolutely, 10/10, prefer a tighter-feeling knob than one that spins easily, after bumping easy-to-turn knobs out-of-whack way too often over the years. In that that regards, the 4 knobs on my two from Carvin/kiesel all fel identical, while of the 3 CTS pots I put in my other guitar all feel different, with one being way too 'free' for me own taste.


yeah the whole "tight" vs "loose" knob debate is stupid. I've had pots that spin easily and hated them, and same thing with ones that take some force to spin. I've used pots from Bourns, CTS, alpha, and tons of other no name ones, and generally they all take some effort to spin when they're new. 

Most switches are fine ime, provided they're not the shittier PCB or plastic covered switches like ibanez uses. Those are actually hot garbage.


----------



## spudmunkey

bostjan said:


> I suppose if you adjust the neck angle and intonation afterwards, at worst, it's a waste of time and at best it gives you a tiny bit more stability.



He was saying that he does it for ALL of his bolt on guitars...he'll tune it to tension, then loosen the neck bolts a little to get the neck to "seat" tightly in the pocket, then re-tighten...but on a neck heel designed like this (which he made a point of saying Suhr sometimes uses too, BTW, but didn't shift as much), that just sounds like...just a terrible idea.

As for the tuners, i don't have anything to say about that, except maybe some washers were missing from the install.


----------



## Thaeon

I've had tuners loosen up like that over time. But never from the factory. And not to the degree that they shift around like that.


----------



## oneblackened

Thaeon said:


> I've had tuners loosen up like that over time. But never from the factory. And not to the degree that they shift around like that.


Yeah, the problem is that these weren't even not tightened enough - the headstock is apparently too thin for the tuner shaft.

Anyway:

Here's the reason for the neck shifting. 

The neck as OP had it:






Another Kiesel, same model:






Notice that locator pin missing on OP's?


----------



## Thaeon

oneblackened said:


> Yeah, the problem is that these weren't even not tightened enough - the headstock is apparently too thin for the tuner shaft.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> Here's the reason for the neck shifting.
> 
> The neck as OP had it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another Kiesel, same model:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that locator pin missing on OP's?



Yikes... I wonder if Kiesel will have a problem with him having the guitar apart and use that as a reason to void the warranty or refuse to address the issue.


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> Yikes... I wonder if Kiesel will have a problem with him having the guitar apart and use that as a reason to void the warranty or refuse to address the issue.



Taking your neck out I'd say is hardly an issue and I don't think they bothered anyone warranty-wise with things like that which could be part of guitar maintenance. If they used that as some sort of excuse to say the buyer would have lost the locator thingy, ehhh...that would be pretty shitty. But regardless, if truly the neck cannot get _any _relief when the truss rod is at the max, this should no question be a neck rebuild.

Where I'd be more concerned if I were the buyer would be going on the internet and essentially proudly boasting about manhandling the guitar the minute I get it. Trying to shift the neck while under tension and while it's only partially screwed? Maybe I'm too young to know that this was required on Fenders in the 70s, but it doesn't sound like this could do any guitar any good nowadays. I could be wrong though, maybe that's the best thing ever and we should all be doing it!


----------



## GoldDragon

There has been lots of Keisel hate, but let me play the devil's advocate. This guy may just be jumping on the bandwagon..

Regarding the truss rod, which is the most serious issue... He has 10s on it, but if its tuned to C, then there won't be much tension on the neck. At a minimum, a guitar should be able to play with 9s in standard tuning. He didn't mention the tuning, so this is a little grey.

Regarding the posts flopping around in the holes, that is, I agree an issue. He said he couldn't tighten them down because headstock is too thin and nuts are bottoming. Did they use a different design? This seems like the kind of thing that if its an issue on one guitar, it would be an issue on ALL their guitars. Its possible he loosened the nuts to show that there was some play. I suspect that the holes are drilled larger on an assembly line to accomodate whatever tuners the buyer chooses when the guitar is built. I havent checked if there is play on my guitars tuners; they are all Floyd guitars, making tuners a non issue.

Adjusting the neck position will probably void any warranty or return. There is no back shelf, what the heck was he hoping to accomplish? I suppose if its as far back as possible there is less chance of neck shifting over time. But no argument can be made about tone. I haven't seen a neck route like this, but I wouldnt be surprised if some other builders have started doing it on 24 fret guitars that used to be 22.

If hes the only guy doing neck routes like this, then shame on him.

Buyer said he had no expectation of a return and that he was going to sell the guitar. Would someone planning to sell a guitar post all these damning photos? What is he going to string it with 11s, and pass the problem onto someone else?

Not all adding up.


----------



## mbardu

GoldDragon said:


> Regarding the posts flopping around in the holes, that is, I agree an issue. He said he couldn't tighten them down because headstock is too thin and nuts are bottoming. Did they use a different design? This seems like the kind of thing that if its an issue on one guitar, it would be an issue on ALL their guitars. Its possible he loosened the nuts to show that there was some play. I suspect that the holes are drilled larger on an assembly line to accomodate whatever tuners the buyer chooses when the guitar is built.



This part is the one that also puzzles me the most (besides the practice of shifting the neck under tension that I had never heard of). Everything being CNC, I can't imagine how the headstock here would just end up being randomly thinner. Not an issue I've seen on literally more than 100 Carvin/Kiesel guitars. Quite the opposite, the tuners being especially good since they switched to their branded ones, the whole thing feels pretty sturdy- and nothing like what the OP shows. I'm going to leave him the benefit of the doubt and not even imagine he loosened them on purpose, but if you take it all at face value, he seriously got the bingo of random structural issues here.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Lorcan Ward said:


> There seems to be lots of posts for and against adjusting the neck like that.
> 
> I'm mostly confused how he's had so many problems with them before from crooked bridges to wood shrinking and a truss rod with no more room like this one yet he keeps ordering.




Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, and will edit this post after I have, but this is true... Why buy for 20/whatever years if you keep getting shit? I personally haven't even received a shitty guitar and I'm done with them for the immediate future.


----------



## mbardu

GoldDragon said:


> Buyer said he had no expectation of a return and that he was going to sell the guitar. Would someone planning to sell a guitar post all these damning photos? What is he going to string it with 11s, and pass the problem onto someone else?
> 
> Not all adding up.



Two wrongs don't make a right and this kinda rubs me the wrong way too.

In this situation I'd say either:

if he did nothing wrong and his "neck set" is totally standard practice, yet the neck has fundamental issues from that factory- get the problem fixed under warranty by Kiesel, as they should be required to- no questions asked
if he did something seriously wrong and damaged something with the guitar (wood and screws are not supposed to be that fragile...but again I really don't know anything about that practice), then maybe own up to it instead of passing along the issue to someone else? He says he's not even considering a return for repair or rebuild. Does he think he may have done something wrong?
Going online to boast about his maneuver and about all the issues with the guitar to conclude by "I'm just going to pass it on to someone else to deal with" is not an option that makes sense in my book.


----------



## lewis

So what does he do with the neck?

Loosens it, strings up so they pull the neck more in the body with tension, then tightens neck?

is that right?

or something similar.

Ive not heard anyone do that before.


----------



## oneblackened

lewis said:


> So what does he do with the neck?
> 
> Loosens it, strings up so they pull the neck more in the body with tension, then tightens neck?
> 
> is that right?
> 
> or something similar.
> 
> Ive not heard anyone do that before.


Yeah, that's essentially it. I've heard of doing it with bolt-ons before, but frankly I'd never do it myself. If I need to seat a neck properly, I'm doing it with the strings off and a light tap from a rubber mallet.


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right and this kinda rubs me the wrong way too.
> 
> In this situation I'd say either:
> 
> if he did nothing wrong and his "neck set" is totally standard practice, yet the neck has fundamental issues from that factory- get the problem fixed under warranty by Kiesel, as they should be required to- no questions asked
> if he did something seriously wrong and damaged something with the guitar (wood and screws are not supposed to be that fragile...but again I really don't know anything about that practice), then maybe own up to it instead of passing along the issue to someone else? He says he's not even considering a return for repair or rebuild. Does he think he may have done something wrong?
> Going online to boast about his maneuver and about all the issues with the guitar to conclude by "I'm just going to pass it on to someone else to deal with" is not an option that makes sense in my book.



diesel missed a locater pin which is a fundamental part of that neck joint working correctly.


----------



## mbardu

oneblackened said:


> Yeah, the problem is that these weren't even not tightened enough - the headstock is apparently too thin for the tuner shaft.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> Here's the reason for the neck shifting.
> 
> The neck as OP had it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another Kiesel, same model:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that locator pin missing on OP's?



I'll add that regardless of OP's maneuveur and other issues, this design is not great. A tiny pin that may be forgotten (and may have been in this case?) as the sole physical stop for neck positioning?

It would cost next to 0 to have the CNC actually have a lip or shelf or any other physical stop in the wood for the neck, wouldn't it? I wonder if the design is the same on the Aries (I don't currently have one to check). Is it the same on the Zeus or HD?
Seriously dampens my urge to order a Vanquish or one of the new bolt-on headless all of a sudden. 
Their neck through and set necks obviously don't have this type of issue (neither did their Contours in Carvin times) so I'm hoping that's something that will improve.


----------



## spudmunkey

Well, to make a lip, they would either need to make the pickup route shallower, which would raise the pickup cavity floor, or they would need to lower the neck pocket, which could have durability ramifications. Or, they would have a "wall" at the end of the pocket, like the C66/Bolt/Bolt Plus did, but that pushes the neck pickup out. Not sure what the "answer" is, but a locating pin/dowel seems fine, since the screws are still doing the lion's share of the work.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Well, to make a lip, they would either need to make the pickup route shallower, which would raise the pickup cavity floor, or they would need to lower the neck pocket, which could have durability ramifications. Or, they would have a "wall" at the end of the pocket, like the C66/Bolt/Bolt Plus did, but that pushes the neck pickup out. Not sure what the "answer" is, but a locating pin/dowel seems fine, *since the screws are still doing the lion's share of the work*.



Pretty much my issue with it though.
I'd much rather the screws are there first and foremost to ensure the "vertical" tightness (for lack of a better term), with at least another piece of wood for the "location". I know the pin is supposed to do that part, and it's probably exactly where it needs to be with the CNC... But it's still fairly small and apparently it can go missing, so...


----------



## sharedEQ

spudmunkey said:


> Well, to make a lip, they would either need to make the pickup route shallower, which would raise the pickup cavity floor, or they would need to lower the neck pocket, which could have durability ramifications. Or, they would have a "wall" at the end of the pocket, like the C66/Bolt/Bolt Plus did, but that pushes the neck pickup out. Not sure what the "answer" is, but a locating pin/dowel seems fine, since the screws are still doing the lion's share of the work.


I saw the husky tgp reply that alluded to this as the reason. I don't buy it because Ibanez sabre..very thin... has shelf. The pickup route is not too deep, but the points under the screws are routed deeper, so the screws will not collide.

I personally think it's a safety net. They probably found when building Lego guitars, that if there is a shelf, they sometimes have a problem with interference or gapping over a variety of scales. 

Regarding the missing pin, there is a good chance the holes don't line up which is why it was excluded, or the pin is somewhere in the guys carpet.

That said, I really think the guys strategy, to trash them online before even contacting the company is a bitch move. It's pretty clear he is trying to drum up public support and outcry so he has more leverage. This is like the Cosby accusers. Yes some were raped, but others (many?) jumped on bandwagon for attention and financial gain. He should have contacted directly before crying rape. 

Trying to seat the neck when it's obvious there is no shelf, also a bitch move. If he knows what he's doing, he would have realized it was pointless. So doing a pointless adjustment finds a missing pin? Not exactly buying it.

And the truss rod? One of the tgp posters said you keep turning in, it's a two way truss and will start building tension after it was slack. Not sure if that's true, but if he contacted company it could be ruled out.

Another thing. The neck was ordered double thick. It may be that it is stiffer and the laws of physics dictate 9s just don't have enough tension to pull it forward. Unclear what tuning he was using, he didn't say.

I think this guy is a false accuser.


----------



## prlgmnr

I wonder if that maybe _isn't_ the most apposite comparison.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

prlgmnr said:


> I wonder if that maybe _isn't_ the most apposite comparison.





via Imgflip Meme Generator


----------



## narad

And a new frontrunner for worst-post-of-the-year, comin' in hot.


----------



## xzacx

sharedEQ said:


> Another thing. The neck was ordered double thick. It may be that it is stiffer and the laws of physics dictate 9s just don't have enough tension to pull it forward. Unclear what tuning he was using, he didn't say.
> 
> I think this guy is a false accuser.



The laws of logic dictate there’s still a problem with the neck if that’s the case. They also dictate that your rape analogy was incredibly stupid.


----------



## Jeff

sharedEQ said:


> I saw the husky tgp reply that alluded to this as the reason. I don't buy it because Ibanez sabre..very thin... has shelf. The pickup route is not too deep, but the points under the screws are routed deeper, so the screws will not collide.
> 
> I personally think it's a safety net. They probably found when building Lego guitars, that if there is a shelf, they sometimes have a problem with interference or gapping over a variety of scales.
> 
> Regarding the missing pin, there is a good chance the holes don't line up which is why it was excluded, or the pin is somewhere in the guys carpet.
> 
> That said, I really think the guys strategy, to trash them online before even contacting the company is a bitch move. It's pretty clear he is trying to drum up public support and outcry so he has more leverage. This is like the Cosby accusers. Yes some were raped, but others (many?) jumped on bandwagon for attention and financial gain. He should have contacted directly before crying rape.
> 
> Trying to seat the neck when it's obvious there is no shelf, also a bitch move. If he knows what he's doing, he would have realized it was pointless. So doing a pointless adjustment finds a missing pin? Not exactly buying it.
> 
> And the truss rod? One of the tgp posters said you keep turning in, it's a two way truss and will start building tension after it was slack. Not sure if that's true, but if he contacted company it could be ruled out.
> 
> Another thing. The neck was ordered double thick. It may be that it is stiffer and the laws of physics dictate 9s just don't have enough tension to pull it forward. Unclear what tuning he was using, he didn't say.
> 
> I think this guy is a false accuser.



Come on, dude. This is frivolous guitar stuff. What an absolute bullshit comparison.


----------



## ElRay

A bit


soliloquy said:


> ... it means that those who are supporting the company are wasting their breath (or finger dexterity as they type away online) to support the company. ...


 See also:

COVID-19 Denialists/#FilmYourHospital
tRump sycophants
... but her emails ...
... Bengazi! ...
Confederate flag is a sign of historic pride and defiance to whatever is currently called “liberalism”

Flat Earthers
Anti-Vaxers
Anti-LBGTQ Marriage Equality
Anthropogenic Climate Change Denialists
"Life begins at conception" Anti-Abortion Nuts
Socialism == Communism
Dunning-Kruger theists



> ... It also means that those who are bashing the company are kind of beating a dead horse. ...


Yes. Facts, logic, real-world data, etc. mean nothing to the above clowns and trying to convince them with actual facts, logic, real-world data, etc. put them into a "I'm being persecuted, therefore I must be right!" immovable state.

That said, rational, thinking humans still have to push-back because there are too many "on the fence" that don't think for themselves.


----------



## Velokki

ElRay said:


> A bit See also:
> 
> COVID-19 Denialists/#FilmYourHospital
> tRump sycophants
> ... but her emails ...
> ... Bengazi! ...
> Confederate flag is a sign of historic pride and defiance to whatever is currently called “liberalism”
> 
> Flat Earthers
> Anti-Vaxers
> Anti-LBGTQ Marriage Equality
> Anthropogenic Climate Change Denialists
> "Life begins at conception" Anti-Abortion Nuts
> Socialism == Communism
> Dunning-Kruger theists
> Yes. Facts, logic, real-world data, etc. mean nothing to the above clowns and trying to convince them with actual facts, logic, real-world data, etc. put them into a "I'm being persecuted, therefore I must be right!" immovable state.
> 
> That said, rational, thinking humans still have to push-back because there are too many "on the fence" that don't think for themselves.



Why on earth can I only like this once


----------



## oneblackened

Alright, time to break this down bit by bit.



sharedEQ said:


> I personally think it's a safety net. They probably found when building Lego guitars, that if there is a shelf, they sometimes have a problem with interference or gapping over a variety of scales.


No, it's not. bolt-ons need to have something to keep the neck from shifting, because - spoiler - they do shift if they don't. That's why literally everybody doing bolt-ons has some kind of brace other than the screws - be it a lip between the neck pocket and pickup cavity (Fender, Jackson, etc), a slightly deeper neck pocket than pickup cavity (Ibanez, Suhr), or even a locating pin (Kiesel).



sharedEQ said:


> Regarding the missing pin, there is a good chance the holes don't line up which is why it was excluded, or the pin is somewhere in the guys carpet.


 This is not a good reason to exclude it, and moreover, the neck slid that much when he loosened the neck by a quarter turn on each screw. No, this is not accurate.




sharedEQ said:


> Trying to seat the neck when it's obvious there is no shelf, also a bitch move. If he knows what he's doing, he would have realized it was pointless. So doing a pointless adjustment finds a missing pin? Not exactly buying it.


 If you'll read the thread, he did it on another guitar with the _same exact neck pocket design_ and it didn't have a problem, because _the fucking pin was there._



sharedEQ said:


> And the truss rod? One of the tgp posters said you keep turning in, it's a two way truss and will start building tension after it was slack. Not sure if that's true, but if he contacted company it could be ruled out.


The neck was maxed out towards give forward bow. Again, reading comprehension.



sharedEQ said:


> Another thing. The neck was ordered double thick. It may be that it is stiffer and the laws of physics dictate 9s just don't have enough tension to pull it forward. Unclear what tuning he was using, he didn't say.


 That's not even sort of accurate. You can adjust a baseball bat of an early 50s profile tele neck to work with 9s without trouble, because truss rods work. The double-acting rod was maxed towards forward bow with .005" of relief with 10s.




sharedEQ said:


> That said, I really think the guys strategy, to trash them online before even contacting the company is a bitch move. It's pretty clear he is trying to drum up public support and outcry so he has more leverage. This is like the Cosby accusers. Yes some were raped, but others (many?) jumped on bandwagon for attention and financial gain. He should have contacted directly before crying rape.


 I - what the fuck, dude? This is so beyond inappropriate.


----------



## spudmunkey

For reference, Kiesel's "thick" neck option adds .03" to the neck. "Double thick" adds .06". There are many many off-the-shelf necks thicker than Kiesel's "doulbe thick" necks.


----------



## oneblackened

mbardu said:


> I'll add that regardless of OP's maneuveur and other issues, this design is not great. A tiny pin that may be forgotten (and may have been in this case?) as the sole physical stop for neck positioning?
> 
> *It would cost next to 0 to have the CNC actually have a lip or shelf or any other physical stop in the wood for the neck, wouldn't it? *I wonder if the design is the same on the Aries (I don't currently have one to check). Is it the same on the Zeus or HD?
> Seriously dampens my urge to order a Vanquish or one of the new bolt-on headless all of a sudden.
> Their neck through and set necks obviously don't have this type of issue (neither did their Contours in Carvin times) so I'm hoping that's something that will improve.


Yup, essentially zero time. To quote a reputable luthier who shall rename nameless for privacy reasons, "the CNC doesn't care about a Z-axis drop."


----------



## Thaeon

My Suhr has a roasted neck that's like .98" thick. It IS a baseball bat. Plenty of room for adjustment. Truss rods do their jobs. Imagine.


----------



## Tr3vor

I know I'm late to the party but I'd say you were being nice to kiesel if you thought that the roasted maple fingerboard wasn't roasted. I'd guess it was an error and the person who built it thought the order called for regular maple because you'd have to be pretty fuckin stupid to match that neck and fretboard if they called for the same wood.


----------



## Protestheriphery

MetalHead40 said:


> So before anyone even says it, yeah I just copied and pasted my post from another forum I'm a member of. Couldn't see re-writing anything different because:
> 
> a) Its what happened.
> b) I wasted enough time on the whole debacle as it is.
> 
> I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to tell my story so people can make informed decisions based on others experiences.
> 
> Sorry, just had to put that out there because I've seen guys get bashed for copying their original post in another forum and putting it up here unchanged.
> 
> So a while back I received my Kiesel A6H build, and despite the fact that it was indeed a stunning guitar aesthetically, regrettably I returned it for a refund. I can honestly say that this was one of the most horrible customer experiences I've encountered, and I'll never even remotely consider another Kiesel product again.
> 
> There were several reasons I finally had enough and asked them to refund me:
> 
> 1) Horrible experience with Mike Jones, my sales guy. This is explained in detail below for those interested in a lengthy read.
> 
> 2) Action problems related to the bridge saddle heights. (Pics of this below)
> 
> 3) Failure by the techs to address my concerns despite a very detailed letter I sent in with the guitar and a promise made by their sales manager.
> 
> 
> Here is the conversation with Mike Jones, my sales guy:
> 
> Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy.
> 
> The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.
> 
> Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):
> 
> Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.
> 
> Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.
> 
> Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.
> 
> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.
> 
> Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.
> 
> 
> So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:
> 
> Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar.
> 
> Here he cuts me off real aggressively:
> 
> Mike: You know your being really rude!
> 
> Me: Excuse me?
> 
> Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me!
> 
> Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?
> 
> Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM.
> 
> Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.
> 
> Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.
> 
> 
> At this point I'm ....ing beyond pissed, and I tell Mike to have a good day and hang up.
> 
> I immediately email the billing person that emailed me several days prior informing me the guitar was complete and explain how Mike Jones just treated me. 15 minutes later Mike Jones calls back and no apology whatsoever tells me the guitars done and its shipping Monday. I thanked him and hung the .... up.
> 
> So that should have been when I told them to keep the guitar and refund me, but unfortunately I didn't.
> 
> Now for the action problem I had that led to me sending the guitar in after speaking with the sales manager and their lead tech.
> 
> I sent the guitar in to have Albert their lead tech look at it after speaking with him on the phone. Talking to him gave me the impression he absolutely just did not care about anything I was saying. Spoke to him the first day and he couldn't think of anything that would cause the issues, so I asked if he could think on it and call me or email me by end of day. He said "yep, absolutely let you know before I leave today". Never heard back. Called him the next day and said "Hi Albert this is Mike, I spoke to yesterday about my Aries 6 issues. He says " Yeah?", and there's just this awkward dead silence. Just came off like he didn't care at all. Like why are you bothering me with this. He told me to just send it in because he still couldn't think what would cause the issues I described.
> 
> Now I sent it back with a VERY detailed letter explaining my issues and asked specifically that they call me after looking at it and before sending it back because if they couldn't get the saddle heights corrected by shimming, or by replacing the .125" bridge with the thicker .175" baseplate version, then I would just want them to keep the guitar and give me a refund.
> 
> The sales manager said they would absolutely call me after looking at it and before sending it back to me because he personally put a note in the tech's work order. It never happened. They ignored my detailed letter and the "supposed" tech notes the sales manager put in the work order because after about a week I called just to see if they had looked at it yet and the same sales manager that promised they'd contact me after it was looked at said "oh, its done and FedEx is picking it up here today and its on its way back to you".
> 
> I asked if he could stop the delivery and he said he couldn't. Which I didn't believe but....maybe that was true, I don't know. I asked what they did to correct the bridge saddle heights and he said they adjusted the truss rod. I told him that I already did this in addition to making all sorts of other adjustments and that's not where the problem was stemming from. He said well, just try it out and we can go from there.
> 
> I knew for a fact that the issue could not be fixed with a truss rod adjustment, so after all the bull.... I had been dealing with I decided to refuse delivery when the FedEx guy came and it went back for a refund.
> 
> Here is how the guitar came brand new from the factory set up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saddles were completely maxed out on the 6th and 5th strings and then almost maxed out on the remaining four. I couldn't get the saddles anywhere near adjusted to match the fretboard radius. It played REALLY bad. Action was horrible. This was set up by them as requested by me in drop C with .012-.054 strings. No way the saddles should have been had to be set at that height, but even a fraction of a mm lower and there was fret buzz all over the fretboard. I thought if they replaced the .125" Hipshot with the .175" taller version that this could have corrected things. Or hell, even if they had shimmed the neck, or both?
> 
> 
> I'll just finish by saying the guitar was absolutely drop dead gorgeous, it came out exactly how I had hoped aesthetically, had no fit to finish flaws that I could find, had a great fundamental tone to it, and I truly wanted to keep it if they could have worked with me. Unfortunately however, the impression I got was they really could not have cared less.


How can anybody at the factory let that go? Its so blatant. Apparently QC was out to lunch.


----------



## MetalHead40

Protestheriphery said:


> How can anybody at the factory let that go? Its so blatant. Apparently QC was out to lunch.



All these years later and I occasionally look back on this thread. Yeah they Phucked that guitar and customer service situation up royally for me. You can imagine my shock when I pulled that thing out of the box. Don't know why they just didn't work with me to make it right.


----------



## AxRookie

I've had my share of ups and down's with my first purchase from Kiesel which was a JB200C.

The first down happen two weeks of ordering it and paying in full, I have been using N-tune onboard guitar tuners for a long time and they work great and I have one for this new guitar their building for me, I have no problem with having to install it myself but it requires a 9-volt battery that will need to mounted somewhere's and I doubt there will be room for a 9-volt battery in the electronic cavity ???

Adding a battery compartment to the guitar really should be done before the guitar is painted and I would happily pay whatever they would need to charge for that service because in all cases it would be far better for something like that to be done by the guitar builder than any other person to add something like that...

To be fair they said UPFRONT "no changes to the build after the order is placed" but I thought they might make an exception if it wasn't really so much as a change to the build but adding something.

So I called them but the salesperson that had taken my order wasn't in so I asked that person and was told it wasn't possible to change the order once it was placed...

So I called them again later to talk to the salesperson that had taken my order and tried to have an honest and upfront conversation with the salesperson "mike jones" and I told him I was considering canceling my order and pay the restocking fee of 20% and then reorder the guitar because that's how important it was to me that the factory that is building the guitar add the battery compartment and at no time was I belligerent or did I use questionable language and he accused me of talking to him in some sort of unacceptable way and I said "how would you like me to talk to you" and he hung up !

Like I said at no time was I belligerent or did I use questionable language, As an example conversation he mentioned once the guitar was finished and shipped to me I could turn around and send it back and they could start a process called something like a "rebuild" and they would charge something like around $40 so I ask "why must it be sent to me just for me to turn around and send it back costing all that time and money" and he told me "that is their rules" and I say "really, kiesel rules are that rigid, so the only way is to send it to me just for me to turn around and send it right back to them ??? That the only way ???" to which he said "yes" and I said "Well it would have been nice if you mentioned that was a way to get what I wanted when I asked about any possible way to add a 9-volt battery compartment when we talked about that one specific thing I called about 2 hours earlier" and he said "well I can't always tell you about every option that we have because we have so many" and I chuckled as I said "come on mike we are talking about one thing here, Adding a place for a 9-volt battery and it turns out besides adding it to the order before it was placed there is ONLY one other option which you just now told me about, what are you talking about you can't tell me about every option, There is only one option other than cancling the guitar and reordering it?" and I chuckled again AND in a friendly way as if I was talking to a friend and he then tells me "if your going to talk to me like that I'll hang up, I'm just trying to save you some money" and I replied "talk to you like what? I'm just trying to have an honest and open conversation with you???" "I'm sold on the guitar and I'm all in, I don't need a 10-day trial I want this guitar" and he says again "look if you keep talking to me like that I'm going to hang up" and the rest you know!

WHAT THE HELL ??? am I missing something or was that lousy customer service ???

No exaggeration OR admission that was the conversation!!!

After that I was a bit pissed off, No I take that back, I was very pissed off!

That was hands down the worst customer relations I've ever experienced!!!

I've had better customer relations at Walmart trying to return a 10 dollar item without a receipt!

I had just bought and paid in full an over $2,000.00 dollar guitar and I get hung up on??? That guy acted like he was doing me a big favor just talking to me!

But after I posted about what had happened a customer relations person contacted me and we had a good talk and he smoothed what had happened over and I was back on board!

That was just how all the ups and down's started but there were more to come BUT this post is long enough so I stop here, But if anyone would like to hear about all the ups and down's that has now ended with me absolutely loving this guitar let me know and I'll continue the saga in more posts...


----------



## spudmunkey

For future reference, most battery boxes (including the ones they use) have a bezel on the top edge, which hides a multitude of signs, in terms of imperfect routing.


----------



## AxRookie

As it turned out there was room in the control cavity for a 9-volt battery, I just have to recharge a rechargeable 9-volt battery once in a while...


----------



## Steinmetzify

All these years later and I still don’t want anything to do with Kiesel...


----------



## AxRookie

My start with Kiesel started off rocky but they really stepped up when it called for it like my guitar was ordered with a "silver drop shadow logo" but when I received it was just a white logo so I sent them an email and the same day FedEx dropped me a pre-paid return shipping label and they picked it up the next day, It came back in two weeks and the logo was perfect...

But there were other issues that came up BUT now, in the end, I couldn't be happier with my Kiesel Guitar! It's my first Neck-Thru guitar, I mean just look at my avatar, how sexy it that!

Kiesel's basic guitar construction (how it is made and what it's made of) is second to none IMHO!

BUT the finishing work needs to step up because as I said there were a few other issues that needed to be addressed which I took care of because I knew I was more than up to it and I knew what I was doing and how to do it, BUT I shouldn't have had to after spending over $2,000.00 dollars...

I don't regret my choice though and as I said I just love this guitar!


----------



## High Plains Drifter

AxRookie said:


> My start with Kiesel started off rocky but they really stepped up when it called for it like my guitar was ordered with a "silver drop shadow logo" but when I received it was just a white logo so I sent them an email and the same day FedEx dropped me a pre-paid return shipping label and they picked it up the next day, It came back in two weeks and the logo was perfect...
> 
> But there were other issues that came up BUT now, in the end, I couldn't be happier with my Kiesel Guitar! It's my first Neck-Thru guitar, I mean just look at my avatar, how sexy it that!
> 
> Kiesel's basic guitar construction (how it is made and what it's made of) is second to none IMHO!
> 
> BUT the finishing work needs to step up because as I said there were a few other issues that needed to be addressed which I took care of because I knew I was more than up to it and I knew what I was doing and how to do it, BUT I shouldn't have had to after spending over $2,000.00 dollars...
> 
> I don't regret my choice though and as I said I just love this guitar!



Just understand that Kiesel's actual instruments have not been the issue for many dissatisfied customers ( My UltraV-7 was impeccable). It's the incredibly egocentric attitudes, inconsistent policies before vs after the sale, as well as many instances of belittling behavior by not only Jeff, but by other representatives of the company. Customers should never have to worry about condescension, bullying, dishonesty, nor overall disrespect. Some of us expect some degree of integrity and sincerity. And Kiesel has proven to many people, that they just cannot consistently provide that.


----------



## prlgmnr

Maybe it's a deliberate ploy on their part to weed out "difficult" (from their point of view) customers - i.e. anyone who won't just accept what they're told, take what they're given and be quiet.


----------



## AxRookie

High Plains Drifter said:


> Just understand that Kiesel's actual instruments have not been the issue for many dissatisfied customers ( My UltraV-7 was impeccable). It's the incredibly egocentric attitudes, inconsistent policies before vs after the sale, as well as many instances of belittling behavior by not only Jeff, but by other representatives of the company. Customers should never have to worry about condescension, bullying, dishonesty, nor overall disrespect. Some of us expect some degree of integrity and sincerity. And Kiesel has proven to many people, that they just cannot consistently provide that.


I can't argue with ANY of that, other than to say although their guitar construction was next level the finishing work was lacking from the tapered plastic shim they put under the locking nut that was way too thick to give the correct nut height and the nut shelf had a LOT of headstock paint overspray, the nut should sit directly on the wood of the shelf with possibly the correct metal shims as needed between the nut and the clean shelf, also the hand-cut shim they put under one of the bridge saddles was too short for the whole saddle to sit on because it wasn't a correct Floyd Rose saddle shim, both issues I corrected myself, also the string action was much too high but that could be a matter of tastes...




prlgmnr said:


> Maybe it's a deliberate ploy on their part to weed out "difficult" (from their point of view) customers - i.e. anyone who won't just accept what they're told, take what they're given and be quiet.


That's some ploy, I could only think that could be a possibility if they are almost always building as many guitars as they can at capacity?

And I certainly wasn't quiet when I ran into issues so their ploy didn't work with weeding me out?


----------



## Jonathan20022

If Mike didn't have a reputation of doing exactly that to customers, I'd question how your tone was on the phone to get him so upset.

And the instruments are perfectly fine, as High Plains put it. Just puts a sour taste in your mouth when you're slighted and treated poorly and have to go pick up your Kiesels and play them. The guys I sold mine to were super happy with them, and I've found guitars that impress me more overall as well. 

Some people can live with what they get experience and product wise from Kiesel, and that's perfectly fine.


----------



## AxRookie

Jonathan20022 said:


> If Mike didn't have a reputation of doing exactly that to customers, I'd question how your tone was on the phone to get him so upset.
> 
> And the instruments are perfectly fine, as High Plains put it. Just puts a sour taste in your mouth when you're slighted and treated poorly and have to go pick up your Kiesels and play them. The guys I sold mine to were super happy with them, and I've found guitars that impress me more overall as well.
> 
> Some people can live with what they get experience and product wise from Kiesel, and that's perfectly fine.


I was upbeat and laughing when I talked to mike...

And any sour taste in my mouth had nothing to do with the fact that there were a few small issues with my guitar like the tapered plastic shim they put under the locking nut that was way too thick to give the correct nut height and the nut shelf had a LOT of headstock paint overspray, the nut should sit directly on the wood of the shelf with possibly the correct metal shims as needed between the nut and the clean shelf, also the hand-cut shim they put under one of the bridge saddles was too short for the whole saddle to sit on because it wasn't a correct Floyd Rose saddle shim.

It seems like you're trying to play off the few small issues I had with my guitar as someone with an axe to grind but I'm VERY HAPPY with my Kiesel and I would do it all over again to get the guitar I have now!


----------



## diagrammatiks

I'm glad you're happy with you're kiesel...
but customers like you are their bread and butter.

mike jones shits in your mouth and you're guitar has obvious flaws.

no problem still love the guitar.

Jeff diesels calls you a piece of shit the day after a family member dies.

no problem still the brand.

guitar neck has knots that any other builder would have rejected. 

no problem. still best guitar ever.

it's beautiful really.


----------



## GoldDragon

prlgmnr said:


> Maybe it's a deliberate ploy on their part to weed out "difficult" (from their point of view) customers - i.e. anyone who won't just accept what they're told, take what they're given and be quiet.



Thats a valid business model.

If you're a "pussy", we don't want your business anyway. No one else here seems to be having the problems YOU are having. Only real men play Kiesels.


----------



## Steinmetzify

Wasn’t there a guy banned for life from buying Kiesel after he blew up a couple forums about his issues?

Was that the OP here? I know this thread hit a couple other forums too...

Can’t imagine doing business with a company whose entire response to their failure is to say “you’re banned from buying guitars from us for life” as IF the dude ever wanted to again.

One of my other hobbies is artisan shaving (artisanal soaps, razors etc) and the customer service in that area is OFF THE CHARTS compared to this stuff, and while it’s not exactly the same, we are talking about $1,000 razors and $80 soaps and aftershaves, not to get into straight razors that can run into the thousands of dollars. There’s no way that a company would survive this kind of review; every single one of these people strives for 100% on their reviews, and does whatever they can to make it right if someone is unhappy in the slightest.

If I’d ordered a Kiesel and called up to talk to them about it and that guy talked to me like some people in this thread have been spoken to, it wouldn’t even be a thing. I’d hang up the phone and immediately do a charge back on my card, and never think of buying one of their guitars ever again.

The fact that there’s a company out there like this with a scumbag like that responsible for answering the phone and dealing with customers makes me fuckin sick.

Read this thread every year or so, and feel so damn bad for the people buying these guitars.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

steinmetzify said:


> Wasn’t there a guy banned for life from buying Kiesel after he blew up a couple forums about his issues?
> 
> Was that the OP here? I know this thread hit a couple other forums too...
> 
> Can’t imagine doing business with a company whose entire response to their failure is to say “you’re banned from buying guitars from us for life” as IF the dude ever wanted to again.
> 
> One of my other hobbies is artisan shaving (artisanal soaps, razors etc) and the customer service in that area is OFF THE CHARTS compared to this stuff, and while it’s not exactly the same, we are talking about $1,000 razors and $80 soaps and aftershaves, not to get into straight razors that can run into the thousands of dollars. There’s no way that a company would survive this kind of review; every single one of these people strives for 100% on their reviews, and does whatever they can to make it right if someone is unhappy in the slightest.
> 
> If I’d ordered a Kiesel and called up to talk to them about it and that guy talked to me like some people in this thread have been spoken to, it wouldn’t even be a thing. I’d hang up the phone and immediately do a charge back on my card, and never think of buying one of their guitars ever again.
> 
> The fact that there’s a company out there like this with a scumbag like that responsible for answering the phone and dealing with customers makes me fuckin sick.
> 
> Read this thread every year or so, and feel so damn bad for the people buying these guitars.


Holy fucking shit... what!? I remember using google chrome on computers at my college, and if I typed in "sevenstri" it would finish with "sevenstring.org kiesel" as the first option.


----------



## Jonathan20022

AxRookie said:


> I was upbeat and laughing when I talked to mike...
> 
> And any sour taste in my mouth had nothing to do with the fact that there were a few small issues with my guitar like the tapered plastic shim they put under the locking nut that was way too thick to give the correct nut height and the nut shelf had a LOT of headstock paint overspray, the nut should sit directly on the wood of the shelf with possibly the correct metal shims as needed between the nut and the clean shelf, also the hand-cut shim they put under one of the bridge saddles was too short for the whole saddle to sit on because it wasn't a correct Floyd Rose saddle shim.
> 
> It seems like you're trying to play off the few small issues I had with my guitar as someone with an axe to grind but I'm VERY HAPPY with my Kiesel and I would do it all over again to get the guitar I have now!



I'm not, and sorry if that's how my post was construed but I was clearly just jabbing at the fact that Mike Jones has had several documented experiences of being abrasive on the phone and hanging up on customers. And if he didn't have such a history that you probably would raised doubts that you acted differently to how you presented the conversation to rile him up.

I'm not trying to play you up to be anything, I'm stating that as a result of my negative experience it soured Kiesel to me. And that the instruments were fantastic, and that the new owners are very happy with my previous Kiesels.

This is the first time I've ever directly commented about you, if you think those issues are small then that is your prerogative. Dunno why you're giving them a free pass when you ordered a custom guitar that shouldn't have had those issues in the first place, but they are pretty minor. No reason not to hit them up and ask them to fix it, IMHO.

Just a pro tip, work with Chris Hong if you order again. Don't know why the experience between sales people isn't regulated more but Chris is an absolute saint and will always go above and beyond to make sure you're happy.


----------



## AxRookie

Ok sorry I misunderstood you, It wasn't a free pass so much as it was something I could take care of and I didn't want to send it back again and wait another two weeks, And doing it my self I knew it would be done 100% right...



diagrammatiks said:


> Jeff diesels calls you a piece of shit the day after a family member dies.
> 
> no problem still the brand.
> 
> guitar neck has knots that any other builder would have rejected.
> 
> no problem. still best guitar ever.



None of that happened to me???



steinmetzify said:


> Wasn’t there a guy banned for life from buying Kiesel after he blew up a couple forums about his issues?
> 
> Was that the OP here? I know this thread hit a couple other forums too...
> 
> Can’t imagine doing business with a company whose entire response to their failure is to say “you’re banned from buying guitars from us for life” as IF the dude ever wanted to again.
> 
> One of my other hobbies is artisan shaving (artisanal soaps, razors etc) and the customer service in that area is OFF THE CHARTS compared to this stuff, and while it’s not exactly the same, we are talking about $1,000 razors and $80 soaps and aftershaves, not to get into straight razors that can run into the thousands of dollars. There’s no way that a company would survive this kind of review; every single one of these people strives for 100% on their reviews, and does whatever they can to make it right if someone is unhappy in the slightest.
> 
> If I’d ordered a Kiesel and called up to talk to them about it and that guy talked to me like some people in this thread have been spoken to, it wouldn’t even be a thing. I’d hang up the phone and immediately do a charge back on my card, and never think of buying one of their guitars ever again.
> 
> The fact that there’s a company out there like this with a scumbag like that responsible for answering the phone and dealing with customers makes me fuckin sick.
> 
> Read this thread every year or so, and feel so damn bad for the people buying these guitars.


Wow! I just had one guy hang up on me and my guitar just had a few small issues I could take care of myself, I feel bad for all the people that had a really bad experience with those guys...


----------



## diagrammatiks

blink twice if you have stockholm syndrome.


----------



## GoldDragon

Kiesel is the "Popeye's Chicken" of the guitar world.

It's tasty and cheap, but you might get shot while waiting in line.


----------



## AxRookie

GoldDragon said:


> Kiesel is the "Popeye's Chicken" of the guitar world.
> 
> It's tasty and cheap, but you might get shot while waiting in line.


What BS, man someone sounds butt hurt OR just trolling for a rise, Don't tell me, Your a $6,000.00 dollar Les Paul fan?


----------



## Jeff

AxRookie said:


> What BS, man someone sounds butt hurt OR just trolling for a rise, Don't tell me, Your a $6,000.00 dollar Les Paul fan?



Wait, who’s butthurt?


----------



## Dayn

I swear that guitarists are the absolute worst at looking out for themselves. "Hey guys, my guitar has issues that it shouldn't have, and customer service hangs up on me. This is fine, right? I don't think I should get what I pay for."


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Dayn said:


> I swear that guitarists are the absolute worst at looking out for themselves. "Hey guys, my guitar has issues that it shouldn't have, and customer service hangs up on me. This is fine, right? I don't think I should get what I pay for."



No wonder scammers love the musical instrument market.


----------



## USMarine75

AxRookie said:


> What BS, man someone sounds butt hurt OR just trolling for a rise, Don't tell me, Your a $6,000.00 dollar Les Paul fan?



You rang?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jeff says if I complain online, I won't get anything in the future. I guess I better accept whatever half assed slop they serve me at a premium price.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

I bought a used Kiesel off a very honest, up front seller on Reverb. Aside from the stock pups which aren't bad, just aren't my thing, I really like that guitar. That said, it just seems to me that there are enough Kiesels out there right now that unless you just have to have some really "out there" specs on yours that you could easily find a good one used and never have to deal directly with Kiesel.


----------



## cip 123

AxRookie said:


> What BS, man someone sounds butt hurt OR just trolling for a rise, Don't tell me, Your a $6,000.00 dollar Les Paul fan?


Mike jones basically told you to F off and you were cool with it.

If there’s any BS here it’s that


----------



## GoldDragon

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Jeff says if I complain online, I won't get anything in the future. I guess I better accept whatever half assed slop they serve me at a premium price.


You can't fire me because I quit!

You can't quit because I already fired you!

No, I already quit so you can't fire me.


Jeff k is a genius.


----------



## AxRookie

cip 123 said:


> Mike jones basically told you to F off and you were cool with it.
> 
> If there’s any BS here it’s that


There is a big diff between being told to F off and being hung up on! afterwords a custom service rep asked me to call him directly which I did, he apologized for the hang-up and he sent me free Kiesel merch!

So yeah I was cool with it BUT what I'm not cool with is someone trolling for a rise by S#@$ talked the guitar I own with complete nonsense about the brand of guitar, That's a trolling move if there ever was one IMHO, BUT that's just me...



Spaced Out Ace said:


> Jeff says if I complain online, I won't get anything in the future. I guess I better accept whatever half assed slop they serve me at a premium price.


That's not good you were treated that way but that wasn't my experience, I got a stellar guitar at a good price and I still complained about a dew little things and after that, they have still remained responsive to emails and I requested some of the wire they used to wire my guitar and they sent me some free of charge...

I guess they must be getting better at dealing with people because all the S#@$ talking I'm reading here like "half assed slop" is just more nonsence because as many even here have said the guitars have not been the issue, It's trolling plain and simple just looking for a rise OR it's just butt hurt sour grapes...

The typical response would be something like "oh yea well your brand of guitar is total garbage for way too much money" but I'm not going to drag some guitar builder into the mud like some do.

If this is just some mindless bashing thread in lew of a place to share REAL experiences people have had then I'll leave you all to bash away if that's what you enjoy doing because I'm not sticking around a bash fest... I've got better things to do...


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> There is a big diff between being told to F off and being hung up on!



Yea, it's basically the difference between Mike thinking to himself, "Man, fuck this guy", and Mike saying aloud "Man, fuck this guy".


----------



## USMarine75

Carl Kolchak said:


> I bought a used Kiesel off a very honest, up front seller on Reverb. Aside from the stock pups which aren't bad, just aren't my thing, I really like that guitar. That said, it just seems to me that there are enough Kiesels out there right now that unless you just have to have some really "out there" specs on yours that you could easily find a good one used and never have to deal directly with Kiesel.



I bought one off an SSO'er here and had the same experience. He was upfront as well. I wouldn't have spec'd it 100% the way he did, but probably 90% so close enough.


----------



## diagrammatiks

AxRookie said:


> There is a big diff between being told to F off and being hung up on! afterwords a custom service rep asked me to call him directly which I did, he apologized for the hang-up and he sent me free Kiesel merch!
> 
> So yeah I was cool with it BUT what I'm not cool with is someone trolling for a rise by S#@$ talked the guitar I own with complete nonsense about the brand of guitar, That's a trolling move if there ever was one IMHO, BUT that's just me...
> 
> That's not good you were treated that way but that wasn't my experience, I got a stellar guitar at a good price and I still complained about a dew little things and after that, they have still remained responsive to emails and I requested some of the wire they used to wire my guitar and they sent me some free of charge...
> 
> I guess they must be getting better at dealing with people because all the S#@$ talking I'm reading here like "half assed slop" is just more nonsence because as many even here have said the guitars have not been the issue, It's trolling plain and simple just looking for a rise OR it's just butt hurt sour grapes...
> 
> The typical response would be something like "oh yea well your brand of guitar is total garbage for way too much money" but I'm not going to drag some guitar builder into the mud like some do.
> 
> If this is just some mindless bashing thread in lew of a place to share REAL experiences people have had then I'll leave you all to bash away if that's what you enjoy doing because I'm not sticking around a bash fest... I've got better things to do...



man you're literally posting in the kiesel hate thread.

there's another thread that's all kiesel love.


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> Yea, it's basically the difference between Mike thinking to himself, "Man, fuck this guy", and Mike saying aloud "Man, fuck this guy".


So mike sucks, there's no getting around that! but do I condemn an entire brand because of the actions of one a$$hole, for me, the answer was no, I just don't talk to that clown anymore and instead I call Joe Stone or email him directly and he takes call of what I need, what I don't do is get all butt hurt and go around talking #[email protected]#@$ about the whole company over one dimwit there...

I understand legitimate hate over something they've actually done BUT just saying @#$% like they are "overpriced garbage" is not only untrue, it's not helpful to anyone and it pisses off people who have done nothing to anyone here that own one of their guitar! and for what???


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

AxRookie said:


> That's not good you were treated that way but that wasn't my experience, I got a stellar guitar at a good price and I still complained about a dew little things and after that, they have still remained responsive to emails and I requested some of the wire they used to wire my guitar and they sent me some free of charge...
> 
> I guess they must be getting better at dealing with people because all the S#@$ talking I'm reading here like "half assed slop" is just more nonsence because as many even here have said the guitars have not been the issue, It's trolling plain and simple just looking for a rise OR it's just butt hurt sour grapes...
> 
> The typical response would be something like "oh yea well your brand of guitar is total garbage for way too much money" but I'm not going to drag some guitar builder into the mud like some do.
> 
> If this is just some mindless bashing thread in lew of a place to share REAL experiences people have had then I'll leave you all to bash away if that's what you enjoy doing because I'm not sticking around a bash fest... I've got better things to do...




"I've got better things to do..." Apparently not, because I'm sure most of your posts are in this thread.


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> So mike sucks, there's no getting around that! but do I condemn an entire brand because of the actions of one a$$hole, for me, the answer was no, I just don't talk to that clown anymore and instead I call Joe Stone or email him directly and he takes call of what I need, what I don't do is get all butt hurt and go around talking #[email protected]#@$ about the whole company over one dimwit there...
> 
> I understand legitimate hate over something they've actually done BUT just saying @#$% like they are "overpriced garbage" is not only untrue, it's not helpful to anyone and it pisses off people who have done nothing to anyone here that own one of their guitar! and for what???



I don't know...I think I just heard you call les pauls similar to overpriced garbage a few posts back.


----------



## iamaom

I wish Kiesel had a headless bass that was straight-scale 35 inches.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Banned for a lifetime? I call it win-win situation.


----------



## Xaios

GoldDragon said:


> Thats a valid business model.
> 
> If you're a "pussy", we don't want your business anyway. No one else here seems to be having the problems YOU are having. Only real men play Kiesels.


Sounds about right. The whole operation seems more and more like, if they weren't making guitars, they'd be building stealthed-out "high speed low drag" style folding knives, or modding ARs. Either way, the ads would be full of American flags and pictures of navy seals.


AxRookie said:


> What BS, man someone sounds butt hurt OR just trolling for a rise, Don't tell me, Your a $6,000.00 dollar Les Paul fan?


Do you know where you are? This isn't TGP.


----------



## USMarine75

AxRookie... Bubby,

I’m just sitting here still loving my overpriced $6,000 Gibsons and watching this train wreck. I don’t really play... I only know 3 chords, but I like to strum them in between seeing patients to remind myself how much I fuckin’ rock.

Now if you’ll excuse me I have to get back to work... and by work I mean this bump of coke isn’t going to snort itself out of a stripper’s buttcrack...


----------



## Wolfhorsky

@MaxOfMetal please, stop this nonsense thread. It can be put at the top as a reminder.


----------



## USMarine75

Wolfhorsky said:


> @MaxOfMetal please, stop this nonsense thread. It can be put at the top as a reminder.



I think it still serves a purpose. It allows constructive posting in the Kiesel thread, and destructive hilarious shitposting in here.

Separate the wheat from the chaff... chaff means poop, right?


----------



## narad

Wolfhorsky said:


> @MaxOfMetal please, stop this nonsense thread. It can be put at the top as a reminder.



Why is there always some guy that steps up as pseudo-moderator to try to end a thread when clearly people still enjoy posting in it? It's easy to -not-read-the-thread- if you don't like people bad-mouthing Kiesel?


----------



## Carl Kolchak

USMarine75 said:


> I bought one off an SSO'er here and had the same experience. He was upfront as well. I wouldn't have spec'd it 100% the way he did, but probably 90% so close enough.


There you go.

I mean yeah, these Kiesel horror stories are kind of funny in that human train wreck sort of way, but given the fact that for every winner there's at least one well-documented losing customer experience that gets posted here off-setting that.

Also, there's the fact that buying used deprives Kiesel of income, while saving you a couple of hundred bucks in the process.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

I might be in the minority here but I like Mike Jones. He's never been rude to me. I actually specifically request him for my builds (when I used to do them)

I have also never had a problem through customer service. 

I cancelled two builds back to back and Jeff even moved those deposits to another build for me. This was years agp though.


----------



## budda

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I might be in the minority here but I like Mike Jones. He's never been rude to me. I actually specifically request him for my builds (when I used to do them)
> 
> I have also never had a problem through customer service.
> 
> I cancelled two builds back to back and Jeff even moved those deposits to another build for me. This was years agp though.



Try now and see how it goes?


----------



## Wolfhorsky

narad said:


> Why is there always some guy that steps up as pseudo-moderator to try to end a thread when clearly people still enjoy posting in it? It's easy to -not-read-the-thread- if you don't like people bad-mouthing Kiesel?


I would buy Kiesel guitar if I hadn’t read this thread. Thus I think it should hang above the other threads. And that is my opinion and I’m entitled to have one, just like You do. I just don’t like shitstorm and train of hate. We are just a bunch of hobbysts with different opinions.
Why do we have to fight?


----------



## USMarine75

Too bad he hasn't been around, I'd be curious what the original buyer @Greenbrettiscool thought of the Kiesel he sold me and his buying experience (now that we're 5 years outside the return window lol). He was pretty quick to dump it for a good quick-sale price, so I'm curious whether he just had imminent GAS or wanted no part of owning a Kiesel, or if he just disliked the guitar (there are minor defects like wonky side dots and a fret marker dot that fell out lol)?


----------



## Thaeon

Wolfhorsky said:


> I would buy Kiesel guitar if I hadn’t read this thread. Thus I think it should hang above the other threads. And that is my opinion and I’m entitled to have one, just like You do. I just don’t like shitstorm and train of hate. We are just a bunch of hobbysts with different opinions.
> Why do we have to fight?



Not all of us are hobbyists. I've had a decent lesson business in two states, and toured a little in various things. Most of the consistent paying gigs where I live now are music that I don't play, or the SeaWorld/SixFlags stages. I have very little interest in either of those. But I have steady other work, so music doesn't have to be consistent. We are about to play a show in Austin in the same venue Cult of Luna played in last time they came through. 

There are some professionals who post here, and certainly some who ready plenty and don't post. Keeping the thread going creates an open space for all potential future issues to be discussed. Since Kiesel deletes any complaints he gets in forums he controls (Suhr does not do this. He addresses issues in the open). This serves as a cautionary tale that stays current.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Wolfhorsky said:


> @MaxOfMetal please, stop this nonsense thread. It can be put at the top as a reminder.



No one reads stickied threads.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No one reads stickied threads.



Right? I didn't learn about what gets you banned on TGP by reading sticky threads. I learned by posting stuff until I got banned 5x, and then used that to create my boundaries. D'uh!

PS... posting this with no commentary by me, in a thread labeled "best cartoon villains", gets you banned on TGP due to it being "political":


----------



## ElRay

Carl Kolchak said:


> ... Also, there's the fact that buying used deprives Kiesel of income, while saving you a couple of hundred bucks in the process.


It also filters out the duds. You don't see too many "The guitar is beautiful, but lifeless" posts anymore, but there used to be a non-trivial number of posts like that.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Thaeon said:


> Not all of us are hobbyists. I've had a decent lesson business in two states, and toured a little in various things. Most of the consistent paying gigs where I live now are music that I don't play, or the SeaWorld/SixFlags stages. I have very little interest in either of those. But I have steady other work, so music doesn't have to be consistent. We are about to play a show in Austin in the same venue Cult of Luna played in last time they came through.
> 
> There are some professionals who post here, and certainly some who ready plenty and don't post. Keeping the thread going creates an open space for all potential future issues to be discussed. Since Kiesel deletes any complaints he gets in forums he controls (Suhr does not do this. He addresses issues in the open). This serves as a cautionary tale that stays current.


Chill out, mate. I played few dozens of gigs and I am gigging with may bad (not now because of covid). I have my day job and I presume that most of us here do. Music is my passion and hobby, but not my main job. Get it? Don't get it all so personal. Maybe You are a pro. But if You like Your job than You are a hobbyist too.
Why everyone is so edgy here? 
That's why I've written to close this thread as it leads to no more conclusions regarding Kiesel guitars. Only stupid arguments, just because one side won't tolerate different opinion. This is how I see it. 
Please, try to be kind to each other, even when there's a lack of agreement.


----------



## olejason

Watch out boys we've got some Professionals™ in here.


----------



## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Watch out boys we've got some Professionals™ in here.


----------



## Wildebeest

Wolfhorsky said:


> Why everyone is so edgy here?


Welcome to sevenstring.org, where everyone is almost likable.


----------



## mbardu

Wildebeest said:


> Welcome to sevenstring.org, where everyone is almost likable.



You mean...welcome to _the internet_?


----------



## narad

USMarine75 said:


> Right? I didn't learn about what gets you banned on TGP by reading sticky threads. I learned by posting stuff until I got banned 5x, and then used that to create my boundaries. D'uh!
> 
> PS... posting this with no commentary by me, in a thread labeled "best cartoon villains", gets you banned on TGP due to it being "political":
> 
> View attachment 81268



You were banned because Hank Scorpio is the best villain character on The Simpsons.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

I am user here for a while. Maybe I am so naive to think that grown men, that love guitars, can speak with respect to each other... Silly me...


----------



## diagrammatiks

Wolfhorsky said:


> I am user here for a while. Maybe I am so naive to think that grown men, that love guitars, can speak with respect to each other... Silly me...



guys there's literally a thread dedicated to shit posting about kiesel and another thread about loving kiesel. we can have both things.


----------



## budda

Wolfhorsky said:


> I am user here for a while. Maybe I am so naive to think that grown men, that love guitars, can speak with respect to each other... Silly me...



They can, but when the respect disappears what do you think happens?

You'll notice the shit talking is mostly in this thread, despite all the active ones...


----------



## AxRookie

Jeff said:


> Wait, who’s butthurt?


Then trolling it is?



Spaced Out Ace said:


> "I've got better things to do..." Apparently not, because I'm sure most of your posts are in this thread.


Not true, They are about 50/50...

I'm still here because the bashing seems to have mostly stopped and I still would like to share my REAL ups and downs with members in hopes it might help someone nav the waters better...



narad said:


> I don't know...I think I just heard you call les pauls similar to overpriced garbage a few posts back.


I didn't say that at all, you should go back and read what I did post, I literally said the opposite...

"The typical response would be something like "oh yea well your brand of guitar is total garbage for way too much money" but I'm not going to drag some guitar builder into the mud like some do."



Thaeon said:


> Not all of us are hobbyists. I've had a decent lesson business in two states, and toured a little in various things. Most of the consistent paying gigs where I live now are music that I don't play, or the SeaWorld/SixFlags stages. I have very little interest in either of those. But I have steady other work, so music doesn't have to be consistent. We are about to play a show in Austin in the same venue Cult of Luna played in last time they came through.
> 
> There are some professionals who post here, and certainly some who ready plenty and don't post. Keeping the thread going creates an open space for all potential future issues to be discussed. Since Kiesel deletes any complaints he gets in forums he controls (Suhr does not do this. He addresses issues in the open). This serves as a cautionary tale that stays current.


All of my complaints are still there at the Kiesel forum they control in full and are untouched? and I didn't pull any punches and said what was on my mind AND no one at Kiesel said anything about it...

This is my main complaint thread there called "I got my new Kiesel guitar today and found something I'm not happy with..." 

http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51284



USMarine75 said:


> Right? I didn't learn about what gets you banned on TGP by reading sticky threads. I learned by posting stuff until I got banned 5x, and then used that to create my boundaries. D'uh!
> 
> PS... posting this with no commentary by me, in a thread labeled "best cartoon villains", gets you banned on TGP due to it being "political":
> 
> View attachment 81268


Two days ago I posted my "Trump House Of Wings" SNL video at TGP AND many other forums and only at TGP did I received an official warning for posting inappropriate content and the thread was closed...



Wolfhorsky said:


> Chill out, mate. I played few dozens of gigs and I am gigging with may bad (not now because of covid). I have my day job and I presume that most of us here do. Music is my passion and hobby, but not my main job. Get it? Don't get it all so personal. Maybe You are a pro. But if You like Your job than You are a hobbyist too.
> Why everyone is so edgy here?
> That's why I've written to close this thread as it leads to no more conclusions regarding Kiesel guitars. Only stupid arguments, just because one side won't tolerate different opinion. This is how I see it.
> Please, try to be kind to each other, even when there's a lack of agreement.


I agree that we should be more thoughtful towards other members and not bash others' choice of guitars, that serves no useful purpose and it causes hard feelings, but the mindless bashing seems to have stopped for the most part and I see no reason to close this thread because it can still serve a useful purpose if used correctly...


----------



## davefishman777

MetalHead40 said:


> So before anyone even says it, yeah I just copied and pasted my post from another forum I'm a member of. Couldn't see re-writing anything different because:
> 
> a) Its what happened.
> b) I wasted enough time on the whole debacle as it is.
> 
> I'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to tell my story so people can make informed decisions based on others experiences.
> 
> Sorry, just had to put that out there because I've seen guys get bashed for copying their original post in another forum and putting it up here unchanged.
> 
> So a while back I received my Kiesel A6H build, and despite the fact that it was indeed a stunning guitar aesthetically, regrettably I returned it for a refund. I can honestly say that this was one of the most horrible customer experiences I've encountered, and I'll never even remotely consider another Kiesel product again.
> 
> There were several reasons I finally had enough and asked them to refund me:
> 
> 1) Horrible experience with Mike Jones, my sales guy. This is explained in detail below for those interested in a lengthy read.
> 
> 2) Action problems related to the bridge saddle heights. (Pics of this below)
> 
> 3) Failure by the techs to address my concerns despite a very detailed letter I sent in with the guitar and a promise made by their sales manager.
> 
> 
> Here is the conversation with Mike Jones, my sales guy:
> 
> Bear in mind I only contacted Mike about 4 times over the course of 3 months, so its not like I was hounding the guy.
> 
> The 4th time I contacted him because I had received an email from Kiesel stating that my guitar was complete and ready to ship. I had asked they ship it on a particular date and after getting their message that it was ready, I called Mike just to confirm they were shipping on the correct date.
> 
> Well here is how the conversation went (This is all 100% direct quoting):
> 
> Me: Hi Mike how you doing, I just wanted to check the shipping status of my guitar.
> 
> Mike: Oh unfortunately we can't check on status of guitars in production.
> 
> Me: Oh no, I'm calling because I received an email that my guitar is complete and ready to ship.
> 
> Mike: Oh, Ok. Let me check on this. I'll have to check and call you back later because with NAMM coming up, were not allowed anywhere near the back where all the guitars are kept.
> 
> Me: Ok, but they emailed me and told me my guitar was ready to ship, so I guess I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> Mike: It may be done, but with NAMM coming up its not uncommon that they steal parts off customers completed guitars if need be to get our NAMM guitars ready to show.
> 
> Me: Oh! Well why don't you check on this, and please let me know today if you could.
> 
> 
> So about 1.5 hours after hanging up with him I think .... on this, what's he talking about "stealing parts off customers finished guitars". So I call back for the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> I get Mike on the line for the 2nd time this day and here is how it goes:
> 
> Me: Hey Mike, I called a little while ago checking on my completed guitar.
> 
> Here he cuts me off real aggressively:
> 
> Mike: You know your being really rude!
> 
> Me: Excuse me?
> 
> Mike: Yeah, I told you I would check on this and call you back. Now your calling back bothering me about your guitar, and its really starting to irritate me!
> 
> Me: Dude, Did you really just say that to me?
> 
> Mike: (In a completely aggressive tone) Yeah, I did. Because I told you we are not allowed near the guitars and also because there is a chance like I told you that even if your guitar is done and ready to ship, they may need to take parts off it to get ready for NAMM.
> 
> Me: So your telling me that even though my guitar is complete, ready to ship, and I have paid for it in full several days ago and thus essentially now own the guitar, they might need to take parts off of it.
> 
> Mike: Yep, That's exactly what I'm telling you.
> 
> 
> At this point I'm ....ing beyond pissed, and I tell Mike to have a good day and hang up.
> 
> I immediately email the billing person that emailed me several days prior informing me the guitar was complete and explain how Mike Jones just treated me. 15 minutes later Mike Jones calls back and no apology whatsoever tells me the guitars done and its shipping Monday. I thanked him and hung the .... up.
> 
> So that should have been when I told them to keep the guitar and refund me, but unfortunately I didn't.
> 
> Now for the action problem I had that led to me sending the guitar in after speaking with the sales manager and their lead tech.
> 
> I sent the guitar in to have Albert their lead tech look at it after speaking with him on the phone. Talking to him gave me the impression he absolutely just did not care about anything I was saying. Spoke to him the first day and he couldn't think of anything that would cause the issues, so I asked if he could think on it and call me or email me by end of day. He said "yep, absolutely let you know before I leave today". Never heard back. Called him the next day and said "Hi Albert this is Mike, I spoke to yesterday about my Aries 6 issues. He says " Yeah?", and there's just this awkward dead silence. Just came off like he didn't care at all. Like why are you bothering me with this. He told me to just send it in because he still couldn't think what would cause the issues I described.
> 
> Now I sent it back with a VERY detailed letter explaining my issues and asked specifically that they call me after looking at it and before sending it back because if they couldn't get the saddle heights corrected by shimming, or by replacing the .125" bridge with the thicker .175" baseplate version, then I would just want them to keep the guitar and give me a refund.
> 
> The sales manager said they would absolutely call me after looking at it and before sending it back to me because he personally put a note in the tech's work order. It never happened. They ignored my detailed letter and the "supposed" tech notes the sales manager put in the work order because after about a week I called just to see if they had looked at it yet and the same sales manager that promised they'd contact me after it was looked at said "oh, its done and FedEx is picking it up here today and its on its way back to you".
> 
> I asked if he could stop the delivery and he said he couldn't. Which I didn't believe but....maybe that was true, I don't know. I asked what they did to correct the bridge saddle heights and he said they adjusted the truss rod. I told him that I already did this in addition to making all sorts of other adjustments and that's not where the problem was stemming from. He said well, just try it out and we can go from there.
> 
> I knew for a fact that the issue could not be fixed with a truss rod adjustment, so after all the bull.... I had been dealing with I decided to refuse delivery when the FedEx guy came and it went back for a refund.
> 
> Here is how the guitar came brand new from the factory set up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saddles were completely maxed out on the 6th and 5th strings and then almost maxed out on the remaining four. I couldn't get the saddles anywhere near adjusted to match the fretboard radius. It played REALLY bad. Action was horrible. This was set up by them as requested by me in drop C with .012-.054 strings. No way the saddles should have been had to be set at that height, but even a fraction of a mm lower and there was fret buzz all over the fretboard. I thought if they replaced the .125" Hipshot with the .175" taller version that this could have corrected things. Or hell, even if they had shimmed the neck, or both?
> 
> 
> I'll just finish by saying the guitar was absolutely drop dead gorgeous, it came out exactly how I had hoped aesthetically, had no fit to finish flaws that I could find, had a great fundamental tone to it, and I truly wanted to keep it if they could have worked with me. Unfortunately however, the impression I got was they really could not have cared less.


I think this guitar company is really getting a bad rep


----------



## AxRookie

davefishman777 said:


> I think this guitar company is really getting a bad rep


Well what happened to the OP IS a genuine horror story that I wouldn't wish on anyone, well maybe one or two people... lol


----------



## cip 123

I don't know if I really qualify to be in a Kiesel hate thread, cause mine is actually a Carvin...


----------



## davefishman777

cip 123 said:


> I don't know if I really qualify to be in a Kiesel hate thread, cause mine is actually a Carvin...


I heard carvin was way better built quality than kiesel.


----------



## mbardu

davefishman777 said:


> I heard carvin was way better built quality than kiesel.



Now that's not really true. There would have been no difference difference between a Carvin bought before the name change and a Kiesel bought the next day. Same exact materials, processes, and people building the guitars.

That said, Carvins were solid for decades for sure -more than solid in fact- but some things such as fretwork are continually improving over time. As a result, the guitars under the Kiesel name now actually have some improvements compared to some of the older Carvins.

The one area where we've really seen a "large" increase in complaints (I even hesitate to call that "large" when we're talking about a dozen public cases over probably ~20,000 Kiesel guitars built over the last 5 years or so) is customer service. That's harder to comment for me. Maybe they've gotten worse on that front, or people are speaking more and more about it on social media. They certainly get a lot more hate here!


----------



## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> I don't know if I really qualify to be in a Kiesel hate thread, cause mine is actually a Carvin...



Don't worry, all those who are here to badmouth Carvin or Kiesel are welcome with open arms on SSO  . Even if you have never owned anything from them actually- even better!


----------



## davefishman777

mbardu said:


> Now that's not really true. There would have been no difference difference between a Carvin bought before the name change and a Kiesel bought the next day. Same exact materials, processes, and people building the guitars.
> 
> That said, Carvins were solid for decades for sure -more than solid in fact- but some things such as fretwork are continually improving over time. As a result, the guitars under the Kiesel name now have a host of improvements that the Carvins did not.


Thanks for the info. I heard a little different, i heard that it's not exactly the same people running it and that the company had moved to a different location? And ever since the quality changed, but the majority of the reason kiesel gets such a good rep is because of fans that don't want to admit that they are unhappy alot of times. I seen some YouTube videos on this subject. I don't think I'll ever buy one thanks to these testimonies. And the owner has earned a really bad rep lately. I've heard that he bashes his unhappy customers instead of helping them.


----------



## mbardu

davefishman777 said:


> Thanks for the info. I heard a little different, i heard that it's not exactly the same people running it and that the company had moved to a different location? And ever since the quality changed, but the majority of the reason kiesel gets such a good rep is because of fans that don't want to admit that they are unhappy alot of times. I seen some YouTube videos on this subject. I don't think I'll ever buy one thanks to these testimonies. And the owner has earned a really bad rep lately. I've heard that he bashes his unhappy customers instead of helping them.



Then you were informed wrong I'm afraid. It's true that they did move to a bigger more modern and better equipped shop from the original one a couple of years back. I've seen both, and the newer place is absolutely better in every way. That move was not really related to the name change though. And the new place is actually not so far (a few miles) from the prior location either so most employees continued to work with the company. I would want to say "all", but I'm sure over the last 5 years some people have moved on to other things or retired. But that's really anecdotal. I think the more senior builder has been with them for...something like 17 years.

The owner is certainly a..."colorful" figure so he's never going to please everyone  . Plus he and a couple of employees have genuinely taken bad service and PR decisions a few times over the last couple of years.
If that's enough to turn you off and to say you'll never want to try the brand, that's NBD. I feel like you're missing out, and still consider them extremely good quality and value- usually just recommend people to order something without any non returnable option- so that they literally take 0 risk (except the cost of return shipping). But there are so many other choices today in the guitar world that you're bound to find something you love, even if it's a bit more expensive and even if it's not customized for you. Not everyone has the same priorities.


----------



## davefishman777

mbardu said:


> Then you were informed wrong I'm afraid. It's true that they did move to a bigger more modern and better equipped shop from the original one a couple of years back. I've seen both, and the newer place is absolutely better in every way. That move was not really related to the name change though. The new place is actually not so far (a few miles) from the prior location either and most employees continued to work with the company (I think the more senior builder has been with them for...something like 17 years).
> 
> The owner is certainly a..."colorful" figure so he's never going to please everyone
> Plus he and a couple of employees have genuinely taken bad service and PR decisions a few times over the last couple of years.
> If that's enough to turn you off and to say you'll never want to try the brand, that's NBD. There are so many choices today in the guitar world that you'r ebound to find something you love. I still consider them extremely good quality and value- and usually just recommend people to order something without any non returnabl;e option- so that they literally take 0 risk (except the cost of return shipping).


The thing that makes me cringe is that apperantly they take parts back off of guitars they don't own anymore after the customer pays in full, I find it disturbing!, I'm very possessive over my things lol that be like Ford telling me sorry you can't get your car because we needed the seats for our car show. And as far as the owner being a beta male, we'll that's a weak irrational angry man I do not want to do business with. That is a complete turn off, And then the hassle of getting a refund after being teased with and amazing looking guitar but doesn't work! lol no thanks what a waste of time for such an expensive guitar. And of course this can happen with other companies but this company is exposed at the moment.


----------



## Jeff

AxRookie said:


> Then trolling it is?



It was a rhetorical question. You’re butthurt.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Wildebeest said:


> Welcome to sevenstring.org, where everyone is almost likable.


I resent that!


----------



## Jeff

AxRookie said:


> There is a big diff between being told to F off and being hung up on!



Jesus.


----------



## dmlinger

This thread is like reading the news...I open it, knowing good and well there is nothing good in there, but do it anyways.

The only redeeming quality this thread would have is if some psychologist or market research expert needed an example of brand loyalty vs. hatred. Many hills have been died on over a god damned guitar brand. 

There is also a lesson hidden somewhere in here about being able to "dish it and take it." You don't always need the last word.

I'll see myself out.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

dmlinger said:


> This thread is like reading the news...I open it, knowing good and well there is nothing good in there, but do it anyways.
> 
> The only redeeming quality this thread would have is if some psychologist or market research expert needed an example of brand loyalty vs. hatred. Many hills have been died on over a god damned guitar brand.
> 
> There is also a lesson hidden somewhere in here about being able to "dish it and take it." You don't always need the last word.
> 
> I'll see myself out.


The "lesson" is this, if you don't want to take a chance ordering from Kiesel directly then buy used. Win/win.


----------



## mbardu

Carl Kolchak said:


> The "lesson" is this, if you don't want to take a chance ordering from Kiesel directly then buy used. Win/win.



Well no, that should be the opposite of the lesson 
If you don't want to take a risk with Kiesel, then order a new one to your specs, but just don't order something that's non-returnable.
Don't like it for any reason whatsoever, just return it. They will give you zero trouble.

Buy something used, and although the guitar would most likely be perfectly fine, it will not be to your specs and thus you still may not "vibe" with it.
I doubt a second-hand private seller would have such a generous "no questions asked" return policy.

Unless (and now that I think about it, this might be the case considering we're on SSO) the whole motivation is "yeah let's stick it to Jeff K" rather than "yeah let's get a great guitar". But even then, it's shortsighted or even counterproductive, because even second hand sales will mechanically drive new sales- and you'd still end up with a name that bothers you on the headstock. So to that extent, I actually _understand better _the people who just say no to the guitars altogether.


----------



## cip 123

I think I'll always have the morbid curiosity myself, to place an order for a JB24 just to see what happens. Being in the UK the timezone and phone calls would be hell, but I feel like I'd be just missing out on the "Experience"...

Can I truly call myself a guitarist if I haven't endured the anxiety of an Kiesel order?


----------



## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> I think I'll always have the morbid curiosity myself, to place an order for a JB24 just to see what happens. Being in the UK the timezone and phone calls would be hell, but I feel like I'd be just missing out on the "Experience"...
> 
> Can I truly call myself a guitarist if I haven't endured the anxiety of an Kiesel order?



Man...it's even worse than that. Can you imagine placing an order and getting all ready to be angry and destroy the brand on social media, just for the disappointment of actually getting a great instrument without issues? Like 99% of their customers? That would be the worst  .

PS: being in the UK is no big deal. You can just order online or pick up the phone at 6PM.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

mbardu said:


> Well no, that should be the opposite of the lesson
> If you don't want to take a risk with Kiesel, then order a new one to your specs, but just don't order something that's non-returnable.
> Don't like it for any reason whatsoever, just return it. They will give you zero trouble.
> 
> Buy something used, and although the guitar would most likely be perfectly fine, it will not be to your specs and thus you still may not "vibe" with it.
> I doubt a second-hand private seller would have such a generous "no questions asked" return policy.


I waited a while, and found a used one that was like 99% to my liking. Now I was looking for a 27" 7-string, and found one after about a month of Reverbing. So I would imagine that if you were looking for a 6 string you'd very well end up finding one in a week or two given the number of them out there. The market is glutted. As such, buying new knowing you have a realistic chance of them fucking your build up when there are five pages of used ones up on Reverb atm just seems a sucker's bet.


----------



## davefishman777

Carl Kolchak said:


> The "lesson" is this, if you don't want to take a chance ordering from Kiesel directly then buy used. Win/win.


I like what you said but there's a "but" used might be because it's flawed lmao!


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> Man...it's even worse than that. Can you imagine placing an order and getting all ready to be angry and destroy the brand on social media, just for the disappointment of actually getting a great instrument without issues? Like 99% of their customers? That would be the worst  .
> 
> PS: being in the UK is no big deal. You can just order online or pick up the phone at 6PM.


Yea like can I request a lemon?

Is that an option 50?

Can I return it if its fine? Does that have the restock fee???

Now we're getting to the real questions

When is Jeff capatlising on the hate with the "ALL NEW LEMON MODELS!"


----------



## mbardu

Carl Kolchak said:


> I waited a while, and found a used one that was like 99% to my liking. Now I was looking for a 27" 7-string, and found one after about a month of Reverbing. Now I would imagine that if you were looking for a 6 string you'd very well end up finding one in a week or two given the number of them out there. The market is glutted. As such, buying new knowing you have a realistic chance of them fucking your build up when there are five pages of used ones up on Reverb atm just seems a sucker's bet.



If you have no interest in customizing the guitar to be exactly like you want, then sure, buy one that is kinda similar on Reverb. There are a couple of pages of Kiesels.
You might be able to see a couple of long scale 7 string guitars over a couple of months yeah. And if that's the only spec that matters, good for you.
But to get the exact model (say a Solo) in the exact finish you'd like, with the bridge you'd like, the fretboard you'd like, the wood combination that you'd like, inlays, neck shape, pickups etc etc...literally 0 chance. I would know, I am there all the time and have all sorts of alerts  . Even getting the actual same model is tough.. Maybe those don't matter to you, but they matter to some people.

Take one build I've ordered recently: Vader 7x with piezo, flamed top on mahogany, green finish, thin roasted maple neck, 25.5 scale, 20 radius and their largest frets. All those specs matter to me, and I'm even leaving a bunch of others aside (pickup choice, fretboard material, inlays, finish options, the fact that it has a trem etc). I know for a fact I would not have found the equivalent, or even something close on Reverb if I had waited years (realistically, even if I had waited for the heat death of the universe). While a Kiesel build takes a couple of months.

The "realistic chance of them fucking your build up" is way overblown. We keep talking about the dozen (or at worse couple of dozens) problematic builds (some being _problematic _as in "oh nooo it didn't look like I expected") over literally 20,000 thousand Kiesel guitars in existence like it's a huge risk. I'd take those odds any day compared to my recent experience with something like Ibanez Prestige for example (closer to 50/50% problems in my recent experience).
But anyway, even so, just don't order something non-returnable. If they fuck up on something, just return it. Most private sellers on Reverb will absolutely not take the guitar back if you don't like it.

The only real "risk" (and that's closer to a certitude than a risk at this stage at this point) is that if you try to attack Jeff, or the brand, or complain on social media, or make a lot of noise against them- they *will *react. Even if you're in the right. And often they will react in a pretty bad way that I definitely do not condone and that makes them look bad. Does that _increase _the risk of having an issue with a build in the first place though? Nope. Lower the quality of the instruments? Nope.

PS: keeping asides the "you have to live with someone else's specs" and no return policy parts, most reverb Kiesels are actually as expensive/more expensive than ordering new. So you don't even save any $$$. Talk about "poor resale value" that people keep attributing to the brand, or the..."suckers" who buy new? As in suckers who pay less for what they actually want and get a return policy  ?


----------



## Carl Kolchak

davefishman777 said:


> I like what you said but there's a "but" used might be because it's flawed lmao!


And if it is then you can just send it back without the associated drama of some Narcissistic nutjob flexing at you while trying to put the blame on you for his mistakes.


----------



## davefishman777

Carl Kolchak said:


> And if it is then you can just send it back without the associated drama of some Narcissistic nutjob flexing at you while trying to put the blame on you for his mistakes.


This is true lol


----------



## mbardu

This really proves that the Kiesel hate is so strong that some people have it 100% backwards. They're far _far _from perfect, but it doesn't mean we have to make up stuff either. Kiesel will take the guitar back with zero drama as long as you don't use *non-returnable* options. They've done so for years.

This very thread starts with the OP saying "regrettably I returned it for a refund"  and I seriously challenge anyone to find a real case of Carvin/Kiesel refusing a return/refund or making a fuss about it (excepting of course all the buyer's remorse cases of people buying non-returnable options).

On the other hand, good luck getting a refund on a guitar that's been manhandled by a random private seller on Reverb. We'll see which one is easier


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> Then you were informed wrong I'm afraid. It's true that they did move to a bigger more modern and better equipped shop from the original one a couple of years back. I've seen both, and the newer place is absolutely better in every way. That move was not really related to the name change though. And the new place is actually not so far (a few miles) from the prior location either so most employees continued to work with the company. I would want to say "all", but I'm sure over the last 5 years some people have moved on to other things or retired. But that's really anecdotal. I think the more senior builder has been with them for...something like 17 years.
> 
> The owner is certainly a..."colorful" figure so he's never going to please everyone  . Plus he and a couple of employees have genuinely taken bad service and PR decisions a few times over the last couple of years.
> If that's enough to turn you off and to say you'll never want to try the brand, that's NBD. I feel like you're missing out, and still consider them extremely good quality and value- usually just recommend people to order something without any non returnable option- so that they literally take 0 risk (except the cost of return shipping). But there are so many other choices today in the guitar world that you're bound to find something you love, even if it's a bit more expensive and even if it's not customized for you. Not everyone has the same priorities.


Dam mdardu
you really know what you are talking about, it's a breath of fresh air in here!

Thanks for the reality/fact check!


davefishman777 said:


> The thing that makes me cringe is that apperantly they take parts back off of guitars they don't own anymore after the customer pays in full, I find it disturbing!, I'm very possessive over my things lol that be like Ford telling me sorry you can't get your car because we needed the seats for our car show. And as far as the owner being a beta male, we'll that's a weak irrational angry man I do not want to do business with. That is a complete turn off, And then the hassle of getting a refund after being teased with and amazing looking guitar but doesn't work! lol no thanks what a waste of time for such an expensive guitar. And of course this can happen with other companies but this company is exposed at the moment.


That did happen to the OP no doubt and that is unexcusable BUT your posts seem more like the aim is to get a rise out of members than anything you have actually experienced, have you ever owned a Kiesel/Carvin new or used now or in the past?



Jeff said:


> It was a rhetorical question. You’re butthurt.


I'm fine, I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing, nothing more...




mbardu said:


> This really proves that the Kiesel hate is so strong that some people have it 100% backwards. They're far _far _from perfect, but it doesn't mean we have to make up stuff either. Kiesel will take the guitar back with zero drama as long as you don't use *non-returnable* options. They've done so for years.
> 
> This very thread starts with the OP saying "regrettably I returned it for a refund"  and I seriously challenge anyone to find a real case of Carvin/Kiesel refusing a return/refund or making a fuss about it (excepting of course all the buyer's remorse cases of people buying non-returnable options).
> 
> On the other hand, good luck getting a refund on a guitar that's been manhandled by a random private seller on Reverb. We'll see which one is easier


mdardu I must say your posts are real world and you are one hella, patient individual, in the face of what seems very much like trolling!
Can you let me in on your secret, How do you do it so well???



Carl Kolchak said:


> And if it is then you can just send it back without the associated drama of some Narcissistic nutjob flexing at you while trying to put the blame on you for his mistakes.


That's not what happened to me and I even bitched about the few small issues I had in their own forum and even then the return was no questions asked and I was sent a prepaid return label the next day...

Is that what really happened to you???


----------



## mbardu

AxRookie said:


> That's not what happened to me and I even bitched about the few small issues I had in their own forum and even then the return was no questions asked and I was sent a prepaid return label the next day...
> 
> Is that what really happened to you???



I don't know everyone, or Carl's case for that matters.

But in _general_, there's a lot of imagined scenarios and exaggerations around here. Like it would be a _huge _risk to order as new guitar from Kiesel suddenly and you'd almost be guaranteed a lemon with a sprinkling of personal insults. Or that they would suddenly no longer honor returns and refunds. 80% of the time coming from people who have never touched a Carvin/Kiesel too.

There are brands/builders that literally ran away and disappeared with people's money, and yet they don't get half the hate that Kiesel does from the SSO mob . Most of it is likely due to Jeff's character being so polarizing and how much the brand pushes the social media angle. That obviously cuts both ways. And obviously the few terrible customer service decisions that pop up keep bringing in fresh new material to keep the subject alive .

Just take this thread for what it has become...Kiesel bashing.
I just take some of my free time to be contrarian here, but at the end of the day I know full well it's pretty sisyphean to do so


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> I think I'll always have the morbid curiosity myself, to place an order for a JB24 just to see what happens. Being in the UK the timezone and phone calls would be hell, but I feel like I'd be just missing out on the "Experience"...
> 
> Can I truly call myself a guitarist if I haven't endured the anxiety of an Kiesel order?



Since there's little customization availble on the model, just wait for one to show up in the in-stock. Every few months, they batch-out 2-3, and then you get to pick the ash grain pattern you like best.


----------



## Seabeast2000

cip 123 said:


> Yea like can I request a lemon?
> 
> Is that an option 50?
> 
> Can I return it if its fine? Does that have the restock fee???
> 
> Now we're getting to the real questions
> 
> When is Jeff capatlising on the hate with the "ALL NEW LEMON MODELS!"



Secret menu:
Option 50- FBLST (Facebook Live Smack Talk)
Option 50 -SSOTB (SSO thread bump)
Option 50- CSHU (Customer Service Hang Up)
Option 50- EWIO (Exactly what I ordered, not available with Antique Ash Treatment)


----------



## budda

It's not about the refund  good grief.


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> I don't know everyone, or Carl's case for that matters.
> 
> But in _general_, there's a lot of imagined scenarios and exaggerations around here. Like it would be a _huge _risk to order as new guitar from Kiesel suddenly and you'd almost be guaranteed a lemon with a sprinkling of personal insults. Or that they would suddenly no longer honor returns and refunds. 80% of the time coming from people who have never touched a Carvin/Kiesel too.
> 
> There are brands/builders that literally ran away and disappeared with people's money, and yet they don't get half the hate that Kiesel does from the SSO mob . Most of it is likely due to Jeff's character being so polarizing and how much the brand pushes the social media angle. That obviously cuts both ways. And obviously the few terrible customer service decisions that pop up keep bringing in fresh new material to keep the subject alive .
> 
> Just take this thread for what it has become...Kiesel bashing.
> I just take some of my free time to be contrarian here, but at the end of the day I know full well it's pretty sisyphean to do so


The thread is literally called "Kiesel Never again" What do you expect?


----------



## spudmunkey

Seabeast2000 said:


> Secret menu:
> Option 50- FBLST (Facebook Live Smack Talk)
> Option 50 -SSOTB (SSO thread bump)
> Option 50- CSHU (Customer Service Hang Up)
> Option 50- EWIO (Exactly what I ordered, not available with Antique Ash Treatment)


You worked too hard. "Option 50" means they use the code "50" for options for which there is no other code.


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> You worked too hard. "Option 50" means they use the code "50" for options for which there is no other code.



Duh, secret menu man.


----------



## davefishman777

AxRookie said:


> Dam mdardu
> you really know what you are talking about, it's a breath of fresh air in here!
> 
> Thanks for the reality/fact check!
> That did happen to the OP no doubt and that is unexcusable BUT your posts seem more like the aim is to get a rise out of members than anything you have actually experienced, have you ever owned a Kiesel/Carvin new or used now or in the past?
> 
> I'm fine, I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing, nothing more...
> 
> 
> 
> mdardu I must say your posts are real world and you are one hella, patient individual, in the face of what seems very much like trolling!
> Can you let me in on your secret, How do you do it so well???
> 
> That's not what happened to me and I even bitched about the few small issues I had in their own forum and even then the return was no questions asked and I was sent a prepaid return label the next day...
> 
> Is that what really happened to you???


Not just him but others testimonies aswell. Facts


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> I don't know everyone, or Carl's case for that matters.
> 
> But in _general_, there's a lot of imagined scenarios and exaggerations around here. Like it would be a _huge _risk to order as new guitar from Kiesel suddenly and you'd almost be guaranteed a lemon with a sprinkling of personal insults. Or that they would suddenly no longer honor returns and refunds. 80% of the time coming from people who have never touched a Carvin/Kiesel too.
> 
> There are brands/builders that literally ran away and disappeared with people's money, and yet they don't get half the hate that Kiesel does from the SSO mob . Most of it is likely due to Jeff's character being so polarizing and how much the brand pushes the social media angle. That obviously cuts both ways. And obviously the few terrible customer service decisions that pop up keep bringing in fresh new material to keep the subject alive .
> 
> Just take this thread for what it has become...Kiesel bashing.
> I just take some of my free time to be contrarian here, but at the end of the day I know full well it's pretty sisyphean to do so


Pardon my ignorance but what it the "SSO" that I keep seeing pop up?


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> Pardon my ignorance but what it the "SSO" that I keep seeing pop up?



SevenString.Org


----------



## AxRookie

davefishman777 said:


> Not just him but others testimonies aswell. Facts


So he really did send back a guitar to Kiesel himself and had "the associated drama of some Narcissistic nutjob flexing at you while trying to put the blame on you for his mistakes." or is he recanting something he read somewhere???



narad said:


> SevenString.Org


Oh, They're talking about here?


----------



## davefishman777

AxRookie said:


> So he really did send back a guitar to Kiesel himself and had "the associated drama of some Narcissistic nutjob flexing at you while trying to put the blame on you for his mistakes." or is he recanting something he read somewhere???
> 
> Oh, They're talking about here?


All of it and elsewhere like YouTube lmao


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> SevenString.Org





davefishman777 said:


> All of it and elsewhere like YouTube lmao


When was that? Do you have a link to the video?


----------



## mbardu

budda said:


> It's not about the refund  good grief.



I know I know. In between the couple of legitimate complaints, it's about the mob piling up to criticize everything else Kiesel, even making up random stuff along the way. Then when the actual argument proves to not make sense, move on to the next... "it's not about that...it's actually about something _totally _different, good grief".

After all, like they said...


cip 123 said:


> The thread is literally called "Kiesel Never again" What do you expect?


----------



## davefishman777

AxRookie said:


> When was that? Do you have a link to the video?


Just look up all the recent drama and watch all the vids


----------



## davefishman777

I heard Jeff apologized well I don't care if Jeff apologized. It's like a woman apologized for cheating a few times out of 100 times she could have. She's still an unstable weak sorry woman that can't be trusted. I saw a video of Jeff bashing a customer, and the whole time Jeff was unprofessional and whining about the customer complaining about the useless guitar he paid for lol it was hard to watch this pathetic weak irrational guitar company owner. And I don't care if you say well you've never bought one so you can't say anything your just hating. No I'm not. That be like me saying you can't say anything about a cheating woman unless she cheated on you, lmao. And sure this can happen with other companies but we can't ignore this one just because there might be another Jeff operating in the same way.


----------



## broj15

I know I'm a bit late, but the thing that made me decide I really don't fucking like Jeff is how quickly he went from "stop whining like a baby. Here at Keisel guitars we're MEN and we're working through it *flex*" to "waaaaaaa I struggle with anxiety please no bully". Like everyone wants to be a fucking asshole and talk shit until they receive some backlash and then be like "hey, it's not my fault. I have a mental illness which excuses all my transgressions so you fucking better be nice to me!". As someone who actually does suffer from mental illness it pisses me off that people wanna try and make one up to excuse thier shitty behavior.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Just vote with Your money. Sheesh... 
I won’t support the company that is putting out lemons with obvious flaws and then treats its customers like garbage. 
But I understand the psychological aspects of strong bias and belief or even a cult.
What I don’t like in this thread that people tend to be negative personally to each other. 
Just concentrate on the subject, please.


----------



## laxu

I actually really like both my 2015 Kiesel AM7 and 2010 Carvin C66. Both are excellent guitar with only very minor cosmetic flaws. One was used and the other I got a small refund for the issues. I asked for beer money and got a lot more so I was happy.

But all the Jeff Kiesel fuckery means I will not buy a guitar from them again. At this point I feel lucky my Kiesel's issues were just cosmetic and that the problem was solved amiably by Chris Hong who was great to work with. They need more reps like him and Jeff Kiesel needs to learn humility.


----------



## AxRookie

davefishman777 said:


> I heard Jeff apologized well I don't care if Jeff apologized. It's like a woman apologized for cheating a few times out of 100 times she could have. She's still an unstable weak sorry woman that can't be trusted. I saw a video of Jeff bashing a customer, and the whole time Jeff was unprofessional and whining about the customer complaining about the useless guitar he paid for lol it was hard to watch this pathetic weak irrational guitar company owner. And I don't care if you say well you've never bought one so you can't say anything your just hating. No I'm not. That be like me saying you can't say anything about a cheating woman unless she cheated on you, lmao. And sure this can happen with other companies but we can't ignore this one just because there might be another Jeff operating in the same way.





broj15 said:


> I know I'm a bit late, but the thing that made me decide I really don't fucking like Jeff is how quickly he went from "stop whining like a baby. Here at Keisel guitars we're MEN and we're working through it *flex*" to "waaaaaaa I struggle with anxiety please no bully". Like everyone wants to be a fucking asshole and talk shit until they receive some backlash and then be like "hey, it's not my fault. I have a mental illness which excuses all my transgressions so you fucking better be nice to me!". As someone who actually does suffer from mental illness it pisses me off that people wanna try and make one up to excuse thier shitty behavior.


What strikes me about both of your posts is you both seem awfully upset over something that didn't involve you and yet you seem to be taking it very personally, and I do mean very personally, I did see the video of Jeff and I did a major facepalm worthy of a great meme and I thought that was no way for the leader of a company to act AND I know I would be mad as F#[email protected] if that happened to me!

But it didn't happen to me and neither did all the other horror stories I've read about literary every guitar builder out there in one form or another, none of which has compelled me to bash on a builder over something I didn't personly experience myself, so I guess I just don't understand why you guys are taking what happened some personally to the point of name-calling & bashing everything about them???


----------



## AxRookie

Wolfhorsky said:


> Just vote with Your money. Sheesh...
> I won’t support the company that is putting out lemons with obvious flaws and then treats its customers like garbage.
> But I understand the psychological aspects of strong bias and belief or even a cult.
> What I don’t like in this thread that people tend to be negative personally to each other.
> Just concentrate on the subject, please.


Again, I'm a customer and besides one hang-up I experienced none of that and as for the guitar and the few very small flaws in the setup of the guitar, the guitar I got is stellar in every way and I couldn't be happier with it! 

But I do agree with your dislike of how some people are acting in this thread and towards people, they don't even know really, by bashing the brand of guitar they own with blanket statements of nonsense...


----------



## broj15

AxRookie said:


> What strikes me about both of your posts is you both seem awfully upset over something that didn't involve you and yet you seem to be taking it very personally, and I do mean very personally, I did see the video of Jeff and I did a major facepalm worthy of a great meme and I thought that was no way for the leader of a company to act AND I know I would be made as F#[email protected] if that happened to me!
> 
> But it didn't happen to me and neither did all the other horror stories I've read about literary every guitar builder out there in one form or another, none of which has compelled me to bash on a builder over something I didn't personly experience myself, so I guess I just don't understand why you guys are taking what happened some personally to the point of name-calling & bashing everything about them???




I'd rather not be lumped in with that other poster. The way he says things like "cheating weak woman" honestly real of misogyny and I'm not down with that.


----------



## AxRookie

It just sounds like part of the outrage culture that seems to be taking over everywhere you turn these days of which I want no part of...


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> It just sounds like part of the outrage culture that seems to be taking over everywhere you turn these days of which I want no part of...



I mean, you're kinda adamantly and deliberately inserting yourself into this conversation which you say you don't want a part of. There's a ~"yay Kiesel" thread around here somewhere for reiterating a good experience (if you count being hung-up on as a good experience).


----------



## Chokey Chicken

broj15 said:


> I'd rather not be lumped in with that other poster. The way he says things like "cheating weak woman" honestly real of misogyny and I'm not down with that.



To be fair, I think they're probably speaking from the pov of a male who is interested in women. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they'd think a guy who was cheating is a weak person as well. 

As for outrage, I think it's stupid to get hung up on and keep giving someone who disrespected you that badly business/praise even if the guitars are good. 

Jeff lost my business a while ago despite me loving the guitar I got from them (and Chris Hong being great to me.) Jeff cemented my distaste when he man-child literal-flexed on camera making awkward borderline (perhaps outright?) Misogynistic comments. 

You want to like their guitars/business despite their shitty business ethic, even towards yourself personally, go ahead. Just please stop trying to white night for people who feel like they've been slighted and AREN'T okay with just bending over and taking it.


----------



## ElRay

Wolfhorsky said:


> ... The only real "risk" (and that's closer to a certitude than a risk at this stage at this point) is that if you try to attack Jeff, or the brand, or complain on social media, or make a lot of noise against them- they *will *react. Even if you're in the right. And often they will react in a pretty bad way that I definitely do not condone and that makes them look bad. ...


First, you don't even need to attack Jeff or the brand, you just need to speak the truth that an error was made and refuse to allow it to be sweped under the rug -- any dissension is viewed as an attack. Second, WHEN they screw-up, the customer takes the shaft.

Add those together and determine if that is a business you want to support.

As an example of where that kind of support gets you: Look at all the former tRump-sycophants that have been left nursing their wounds and legitimately surprised that the face-eating-leopard they chose actually ate their face. Then add to the list, the ones bleeding profusely after having their face eaten, but claiming the face-eating-leopard did nothing wrong.



Chokey Chicken said:


> ... You want to like their guitars/business despite their shitty business ethic, even towards yourself personally, go ahead. Just please stop trying to white night for people who feel like they've been slighted and AREN'T okay with just bending over and taking it.




Jeff and his sycophants can't EO their way and shutdown social media that is critical of the poor customer service and exposes the amateurish, poor QC'ed guitars that are the trigger for the poor customer support.


----------



## ElRay

davefishman777 said:


> Just look up all the recent drama and watch all the vids


Fake news. Taken out of context. Dear Leader Jeff's guitars are bigly yuge and wonderful. The most tremendous bigly wonderful guitars evah. Kiesel sells 331,002,651 guitars every year and only 103,330 have any problems. Only snowflakes complain about Jeff's guitars.


----------



## budda

mbardu said:


> I know I know. In between the couple of legitimate complaints, it's about the mob piling up to criticize everything else Kiesel, even making up random stuff along the way



 you really still don't get it. It's about the absolutely shitty customer service.


----------



## Jonathan20022

What's with the weird default argument of gatekeeping making observations about situations/individuals/groups/brands behind owning the product? This isn't an Amazon review section 

Last I heard people don't need to spend a couple thousand to look at a situation. Acknowledge the facts and state that they don't support the brand due to hearing about the negative experiences.

I'd love to see some examples of people making up false complaints to shit stir. Because the most I've seen is maybe a misinterpretation of the same base problem they heard from other sources. Not all folks have so much free time to be contrarians and review a thread with 160+ pages.


----------



## ElRay

budda said:


> you really still don't get it. It's about the absolutely shitty customer service.


... and FiveThirtyEight says 42.6% of guitarists still drink the same Kool Aid


----------



## davefishman777

AxRookie said:


> What strikes me about both of your posts is you both seem awfully upset over something that didn't involve you and yet you seem to be taking it very personally, and I do mean very personally, I did see the video of Jeff and I did a major facepalm worthy of a great meme and I thought that was no way for the leader of a company to act AND I know I would be mad as F#[email protected] if that happened to me!
> 
> But it didn't happen to me and neither did all the other horror stories I've read about literary every guitar builder out there in one form or another, none of which has compelled me to bash on a builder over something I didn't personly experience myself, so I guess I just don't understand why you guys are taking what happened some personally to the point of name-calling & bashing everything about them???


It's simple, I put myself in everyone's shoes and discern right from wrong.


----------



## davefishman777

ElRay said:


> Fake news. Taken out of context. Dear Leader Jeff's guitars are bigly yuge and wonderful. The most tremendous bigly wonderful guitars evah. Kiesel sells 331,002,651 guitars every year and only 103,330 have any problems. Only snowflakes complain about Jeff's guitars.


What a rude nasty irrational comment lol well well well well looks like the fanboys are the snowflakes


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

davefishman777 said:


> What a rude nasty irrational comment lol well well well well looks like the fanboys are the snowflakes



Lol bruh obvious sarcasm


----------



## Wolfhorsky

davefishman777 said:


> What a rude nasty irrational comment lol well well well well looks like the fanboys are the snowflakes


----------



## mbardu

budda said:


> you really still don't get it. It's about the absolutely shitty customer service.



Nobody, absolutely nobody has supported their customer service (or Jeff's attitude for that matter) in all those stories.
So there's no point in the fake outrage as if anyone was arguing that point in the first place.

In fact people keep repeating "they will censor you and refuse any feedback", yet the other poster's story is still there on the Kiesel forum years later- still doesn't mean I would argue on that point.

Recently too, you can decide to acknowledge it or not (I personally found it too little too late- or in parts almost a "sorry not sorry"), but even Jeff decided to apologize for that, so even he and the brand do acknowledge on their end.

No matter though, I'm never going to support their bad customer service decisions, so I have no argument against the people who only point that part out, since I'm in agreement.

But if you can see a bit of nuance, the above does not mean that:

suddenly you can't order a Kiesel without getting an unplayable lemon. Again, there are a handful of cases that keep getting rehashed over and over again, most of which never actually involved any quality issue- over literally thousands of guitars in existence.
the quality of the guitars has suddenly dropped. This is the part where I take issue (or "gatekeep" if you will) with people commenting without having ever been in the same room with one of their guitars. People who compare them to Chinese imports or even Agiles or the like have obviously not tried them in person. And although everyone (having tried their guitars or not) can agree about bad customer service (you just need eyes and ears), that's not really so for that particular point. I give 0 credibility to someone arguing their quality without having tried.
suddenly every interaction with them will end in public insults or a social media shouting match. No, the rare cases we're talking about are because of escalating drama on social media. My point about returns is that they will absolutely honor that with absolutely 0 drama if you're not happy with a guitar you order. I'm yet to see any proof of the contrary there. Most people who argue about how they'll supposedly treat you have in fact never interacted with the company and are just repeating what they read online. Believe it or not, for people who actually interact with them, even customer service can be pretty good (for things like warranty support, spare parts, returns- or others). Doesn't excuse cases where it gets absolutely terrible -absolutely not- but there again it's the exception, not the rule.
Yet the above is what a lot of posters (not everyone obviously) love to jump on.

If _you _don't believe the above (talking about any "you" poster here), again we are in agreement regarding recent customer service issues. If you do not want to support the brand or owner, that's perfectly fine. And even though the probability of you actually encountering any of those issues (vs _reading about them on the internet_) is very very small, there are still enough reasons to make that decision understandable- we don't need to randomly make up others.

PS: and since this was the topic earlier, buying used is fine too, but it's most likely _riskier_, not necessarily less expensive, and you're still kinda supporting the brand if you do so...so make of that what you will. Doesn't mean I'm pushing the brand in saying that (again, i definitely understand someone who wants nothing _at all_ to do with their guitars), but that's something to be aware of.


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> Nobody, absolutely nobody has supported their customer service (or Jeff's attitude for that matter) in all those stories.
> So there's no point in the fake outrage as if anyone was arguing that point in the first place.
> 
> In fact people keep repeating "they will censor you and refuse any feedback", yet the other poster's story is still there on the Kiesel forum years later- still doesn't mean I would argue on that point.
> 
> Recently too, you can decide to acknowledge it or not (I personally found it too little too late- or in parts almost a "sorry not sorry"), but even Jeff decided to apologize for that, so even he and the brand do acknowledge on their end.
> 
> No matter though, I'm never going to support their bad customer service decisions, so I have no argument against the people who only point that part out, since I'm in agreement.
> 
> But if you can see a bit of nuance, the above does not mean that:
> 
> suddenly you can't order a Kiesel without getting an unplayable lemon. Again, there are a handful of cases that keep getting rehashed over and over again, most of which never actually involved any quality issue- over literally thousands of guitars in existence.
> the quality of the guitars has suddenly dropped. This is the part where I take issue (or "gatekeep" if you will) with people commenting without having ever been in the same room with one of their guitars. People who compare them to Chinese imports or even Agiles or the like have obviously not tried them in person. And although everyone (having tried their guitars or not) can agree about bad customer service (you just need eyes and ears), that's not really so for that particular point. I give 0 credibility to someone arguing their quality without having tried.
> suddenly every interaction with them will end in public insults or a social media shouting match. No, the rare cases we're talking about are because of escalating drama on social media. My point about returns is that they will absolutely honor that with absolutely 0 drama if you're not happy with a guitar you order. I'm yet to see any proof of the contrary there. Most people who argue about how they'll supposedly treat you have in fact never interacted with the company and are just repeating what they read online. Believe it or not, for people who actually interact with them, even customer service can be pretty good (for things like warranty support, spare parts, returns- or others). Doesn't excuse cases where it gets absolutely terrible -absolutely not- but there again it's the exception, not the rule.
> Yet the above is what a lot of posters (not everyone obviously) love to jump on.
> 
> If _you _don't believe the above, again, we are in agreement regarding recent customer service issues. If you do not want to support the brand or owner, that's perfectly fine. And even though the probability of you actually encountering any of those issues (vs _reading about them on the internet_) is very very small, there are still enough reasons to make that decision understandable- we don't need to randomly make up others.
> 
> PS: and since this was the topic earlier, buying used is fine too, but it's most likely _riskier_, not necessarily less expensive, and you're still kinda supporting the brand if you do so...so make of that what you will. Doesn't mean I'm pushing the brand in saying that (again, i definitely understand someone who wants nothing at all to do with their guitars), but that's something to be aware of.


Dude, it’s a joke.


Again, this is the Kiesel never again thread, half the stuff said here is a joke.


There is a legit Kiesel thread here. I own a Carvin/Kiesel, so do lots of guys on the site.


----------



## davefishman777

Wolfhorsky said:


>


Wow my bad wrong quote


----------



## davefishman777

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Lol bruh obvious sarcasm


Sorry wrong quote, I hate when that happens I was replying to a different comment


----------



## DiezelMonster

Since this is the "shit on" thread I had to do work on two separate Kiesel's one that was a fresh build, the other was only 4 months old.

I don't have pics, so all I'm going to say, as a repair technician, I would have wanted all my money back. 

these were not simple cosmetic flaws or a case of someone being too picky with an object built out of wood by hand. This was plain old "Friday build" 

your mileage may vary.


----------



## davefishman777

cip 123 said:


> Dude, it’s a joke.
> 
> 
> Again, this is the Kiesel never again thread, half the stuff said here is a joke.
> 
> 
> There is a legit Kiesel thread here. I own a Carvin/Kiesel, so do lots of guys on the site.


I wouldn't contribute to the brand after all the bad service.


----------



## mbardu

DiezelMonster said:


> Since this is the "shit on" thread I had to do work on two separate Kiesel's one that was a fresh build, the other was only 4 months old.
> 
> I don't have pics, so all I'm going to say, as a repair technician, I would have wanted all my money back.
> 
> these were not simple cosmetic flaws or a case of someone being too picky with an object built out of wood by hand. This was plain old "Friday build"
> 
> your mileage may vary.



Too bad you don't have pictures or details but hey, maybe you or those guys were particularly unlucky. If we're talking anecdotes, I've had literally over a hundred Carvin or Kiesel guitars in my hands, with maybe one thing I would call a structural "issue" (if that- could have been fixed easily with a shim for the neck angle).

Plus hey, the good thing is that if the people who ordered those wanted their money back or a warranty fix...well they could have done either. More than can be said from most other customizable options out there. For example, the OP of this very post got a refund.


----------



## davefishman777

mbardu said:


> Too bad you don't have pictures or details but hey, maybe you or those guys were particularly unlucky. If we're talking anecdotes, I've had literally over a hundred Carvin or Kiesel guitars in my hands, with maybe one thing I would call a structural "issue" (if that- could have been fixed easily with a shim for the neck angle).
> 
> Plus hey, the good thing is that if the people who ordered those wanted their money back or a warranty fix...well they could have done either. More than can be said from most other customizable options out there. For example, the OP of this very post got a refund.


He got a refund after a great disappointment and rude careless customer service lol what a waste of time I would have been very angry myself. And "never again"


----------



## Jonathan20022

At this point I'm wondering if brands see forum posters as an asset worth endorsing 



mbardu said:


> suddenly you can't order a Kiesel without getting an unplayable lemon. Again, there are a handful of cases that keep getting rehashed over and over again, most of which never actually involved any quality issue- over literally thousands of guitars in existence.
> the quality of the guitars has suddenly dropped. This is the part where I take issue (or "gatekeep" if you will) with people commenting without having ever been in the same room with one of their guitars. People who compare them to Chinese imports or even Agiles or the like have obviously not tried them in person. And although everyone (having tried their guitars or not) can agree about bad customer service (you just need eyes and ears), that's not really so for that particular point. I give 0 credibility to someone arguing their quality without having tried.
> suddenly every interaction with them will end in public insults or a social media shouting match. No, the rare cases we're talking about are because of escalating drama on social media. My point about returns is that they will absolutely honor that with absolutely 0 drama if you're not happy with a guitar you order. I'm yet to see any proof of the contrary there. Most people who argue about how they'll supposedly treat you have in fact never interacted with the company and are just repeating what they read online. Believe it or not, for people who actually interact with them, even customer service can be pretty good (for things like warranty support, spare parts, returns- or others). Doesn't excuse cases where it gets absolutely terrible -absolutely not- but there again it's the exception, not the rule



This is a hilariously bad faith breakdown of this thread.

First point - You yourself cited that the number of Kiesels and negative experiences was as you put it,



mbardu said:


> The "realistic chance of them fucking your build up" is way overblown. We keep talking about the dozen (or at worse couple of dozens) problematic builds (some being _problematic _as in "oh nooo it didn't look like I expected") over literally 20,000 thousand Kiesel guitars in existence like it's a huge risk.



And now it's suddenly a handful, for someone who values consistency you're not really living up to it in the grand scheme of things. And your point about Ibanez directly after the above quote is funny, pretty sure Ibanez production eclipses that of Kiesel so if you wanna get down and dirty with the numbers be my guest. Good thing about dealing with a non-direct brand, is that you don't have to deal with individuals vetoing your basic rights when they mess things up and give you very limited options with a rude attitude.

Second point - You're gate keeping facts behind some absurd paywall of having to own a Kiesel to even discuss it. You don't have to own anything to discuss indisputable instances of shoddy workmanship, customer service, or problem solving. A *literal *handful of people meme'd about Kiesels playing worse than the mentioned brands, while most of us discuss issues.

Third point - No one said suddenly every interaction, fucking *EVER*. Considering your prominent role in all Kiesel discussions, you'd think you would have the memory to recognize that fact.

If I'm going car shopping, and Chevrolet is reportedly having issues with reliability. I'm not going to chance a purchase to see if I have a different experience because they provide a vehicle at some kind of "value" and a paint job I want it in. So in reality, it doesn't actually matter how many hands it takes to count Kiesel's negative track record, what matters is that it occurs and when it does Customer Service doesn't perform any better.

Hence why people choose brands with less negative press coverage than others, and preferably close to zero lines on the chalk board.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

If we're doing anecdotes, both of the ones I owned had questionable quality issues. And I've played probably a dozen others. On my personal guitars, I had wonky ass side dots, cracked/filled board, rough non-finish sanded back of the neck, specs I didn't order. (though I won't complain about that last one as it was an upgrade.) Tooling marks were also fairly common, albeit not on every one. Frets were largely good, but a couple were very meh. I've played more Agile's than I have Kiesel's, and the fit and finish seems to be pretty on par with each other indeed, at least in my experience. Never tried returning my Aries due to the unsightly cracked/filled fret board and rough neck because that was around when a few people were getting hassled for asking for refunds and stuff and mine was op50 so I chose to keep it. (wasn't a terrible guitar overall, but certainly not "better-than-Agile" fit and finish, and I know Kurt would give a refund or replacement without calling you names.) For the constantly inflating prices, you probably really are just better off getting an Agile if you don't need the neck-profile/looks of the Kiesel. Added bonus points for getting a similar quality fit/finish guitar for less than half the price and not getting called names if your guitar shows up looking like garbage and you want to return/replace it.


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> I don't know...I think I just heard you call les pauls similar to overpriced garbage a few posts back.



Really I'm of the firm belief if they are good enough for Alex Lifeson, They are good enough for me!

​


----------



## xzacx

Señor Voorhees said:


> If we're doing anecdotes, both of the ones I owned had questionable quality issues. And I've played probably a dozen others. On my personal guitars, I had wonky ass side dots, cracked/filled board, rough non-finish sanded back of the neck, specs I didn't order. (though I won't complain about that last one as it was an upgrade.) Tooling marks were also fairly common, albeit not on every one. Frets were largely good, but a couple were very meh. I've played more Agile's than I have Kiesel's, and the fit and finish seems to be pretty on par with each other indeed, at least in my experience. Never tried returning my Aries due to the unsightly cracked/filled fret board and rough neck because that was around when a few people were getting hassled for asking for refunds and stuff and mine was op50 so I chose to keep it. (wasn't a terrible guitar overall, but certainly not "better-than-Agile" fit and finish, and I know Kurt would give a refund or replacement without calling you names.) For the constantly inflating prices, you probably really are just better off getting an Agile if you don't need the neck-profile/looks of the Kiesel. Added bonus points for getting a similar quality fit/finish guitar for less than half the price and not getting called names if your guitar shows up looking like garbage and you want to return/replace it.



@mbardu I’ll save you the trouble with all your bulletpoints. 

* but the value
* but you can return it (maybe)
* but Ibanez has more guitars with issues (but let’s ignore the actual number of instruments produced or the fact you don’t have privy to any of the numbers in the first place)
* did I mention THE VALUE???


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

I've had two Vader 7s, one with trem, the other with fixed bridge. Kept one, sold the other. Both builds were pristine.

In both instances, communication with Kiesel was smooth and very professional.


----------



## USMarine75

Somehow these are getting conflated or ignored, but there are 3 (or 4) distinct issues:

Product Quality
Customer Service
Pre-purchase
Post-Purchase

Manufacturer and CEO Image/PR/Behavior


----------



## AxRookie

I think what the few Kiesel bashers are missing or just not mentioning is that there are similar horror stories for literally every brand of a guitar in existence!

What you will never see is someone bashing on the brand of guitar they love but I guarantee somewhere there are horror stories of someone's horrible experience with one...

For example, I don't even want to try and count how many les pauls with broken headstocks videos I've seen but I don't #1 take that personally #2 go around bashing that guitar OR the brand OR the guy who run that brand of guitar!

That's because I realize those guitars are just a very small minority of the total number of guitars that are out there AND I also realize these things called "guitars" are made out of WOOD and that with wood no two pieces are the same! now try and make something as complex as a guitar out of it and oh, by the way, make them ALL THE SAME! yeah good luck with that...


----------



## mbardu

You're not replying in good faith man. If you made a good faith effort of even reading, you'd see I am not trying to do a breakdown of the thread, point the finger at anyone, or attack you personally if you are taking it that way.



Jonathan20022 said:


> At this point I'm wondering if brands see forum posters as an asset worth endorsing
> 
> This is a hilariously bad faith breakdown of this thread.
> 
> First point - You yourself cited that the number of Kiesels and negative experiences was as you put it,
> 
> 
> And now it's suddenly a handful, for someone who values consistency you're not really living up to it in the grand scheme of things. And your point about Ibanez directly after the above quote is funny, pretty sure Ibanez production eclipses that of Kiesel so if you wanna get down and dirty with the numbers be my guest. Good thing about dealing with a non-direct brand, is that you don't have to deal with individuals vetoing your basic rights when they mess things up and give you very limited options with a rude attitude.



I am not sure I get your point here. Are you nitpicking numbers for the sake of it? 
The number of cases discussed here or TGP are a handful or a dozen, so I basically doubled in order to not minimize anything...and that's a problem? Even if it was 100 for that matter, it would still be half a percent of issues out of 20,000.

As for Ibanez, I have no idea about their production numbers. My experience here is only anecdotal (and I don't pretend otherwise) in getting 100% of wonky RG 652 AHM (got 2 wonky ones and so just gave up), and a couple more questionable prestige in the past.



Jonathan20022 said:


> Second point - You're gate keeping facts behind some absurd paywall of having to own a Kiesel to even discuss it. You don't have to own anything to discuss indisputable instances of shoddy workmanship, customer service, or problem solving. A *literal *handful of people meme'd about Kiesels playing worse than the mentioned brands, while most of us discuss issues.



I specifically replied to that. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion on customer service. Or on how a guitar looks. But you can't decide whether it's a good instrument that plays well and sounds good by reading a forum- I'll stand by that 100%
Plus *again *no one defended the customer service here.



Jonathan20022 said:


> Third point - No one said suddenly every interaction, fucking *EVER*. Considering your prominent role in all Kiesel discussions, you'd think you would have the memory to recognize that fact.
> 
> If I'm going car shopping, and Chevrolet is reportedly having issues with reliability. I'm not going to chance a purchase to see if I have a different experience because they provide a vehicle at some kind of "value" and a paint job I want it in. So in reality, it doesn't actually matter how many hands it takes to count Kiesel's negative track record, what matters is that it occurs and when it does Customer Service doesn't perform any better.
> 
> Hence why people choose brands with less negative press coverage than others, and preferably close to zero lines on the chalk board.



That's a figure of speech man- just like the "dozen" above. Some people said so, some others implied so. Maybe not you (which is why you don't have to take it personally), but for example the idea that "you won't be able to return the guitar or they'll make a fuss about it" is just plain wrong.

I'll take you up on your example. If Chevrolet allowed me to customize exactly the car I wanted among a number of diverse models, with better specs and a price that beats the competition, together with a warranty that's longer than the industry, and the option of being able to return it no question asked for a refund after trying it a while....why wouldn't I consider them? I see where you're trying to go with reliability, but no- reliability would really be an argument in favor of Kiesel, not against. Even if they were at 1% of issues, it would still be a pretty small "risk" at the end of the day for a customized guitar, and I think they are below that- plus they have a very long warranty. And again, you get to return the guitar if you don't like it. Same advice as ever, don't pick non-returnable options and don't try to get into a shouting match with Jeff K.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> @mbardu I’ll save you the trouble with all your bulletpoints.
> 
> * but the value


=>indeed!


xzacx said:


> * but you can return it (maybe)


=>almost right, more like you can return it, definitely, no questions asked. The maybe is only if you specifically buy something non-returnable 


xzacx said:


> * but Ibanez has more guitars with issues (but let’s ignore the actual number of instruments produced or the fact you don’t have privy to any of the numbers in the first place)


=>not quite, more like Ibanez has way way higher _proportion _of guitars with problems in my _anecdotal experience_. That experience is limited ("only" about 20 or so Ibanez I've owned)


xzacx said:


> * did I mention THE VALUE???


=> *INDEED!*


----------



## jco5055

AxRookie said:


> I think what the few Kiesel bashers are missing or just not mentioning is that there are similar horror stories for literally every brand of a guitar in existence!
> 
> What you will never see is someone bashing on the brand of guitar they love but I guarantee somewhere there are horror stories of someone's horrible experience with one...



The difference is that when other companies have these issues,which are frankly inevitable for companies of Kiesel's size and by itself aren't a knock on the company overall, you can return them/exchange them (in the case of the Ibanez/Jacksons/ESPs etc of this world who only sell via dealers/guitar center etc) with no issue or harrassment.


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> Really I'm of the firm belief if they are good enough for Alex Lifeson, They are good enough for me!
> 
> ​




If that's the logic, save the Kiesel money and get a used prestige. Good enough for Paul Gilbert.


*not that I disagree that we could get by with much less expensive instruments than we/I buy.


----------



## mbardu

jco5055 said:


> The difference is that when other companies have these issues,which are frankly inevitable for companies of Kiesel's size and by itself aren't a knock on the company overall, you can return them/exchange them (in the case of the Ibanez/Jacksons/ESPs etc of this world who only sell via dealers/guitar center etc) with no issue or harrassment.



I've been harassed way more by D-bags when trying to return a MusicMan in person at Guitarcenter, or had more issues trying to ship back a PRS to an online store that shall remain unnamed (just know it the words "Music" and "Live" in the name) than successfully returning probably around 10 or so Carvin or Kiesel guitars (built to my specs) with literally 0 hassle from them.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

What goofy mental gymnastics some must go through to make their arguments...


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> If that's the logic, save the Kiesel money and get a used prestige. Good enough for Paul Gilbert.
> 
> 
> *not that I disagree that we could get by with much less expensive instruments than we/I buy.


That's not my logic, my point was I don't judge an entire line of guitars because I've seen a dozen videos of broken headstocks!


----------



## xzacx

We’ve really seen it all now—the return of 10 different guitars being used as a defense of Kiesel. Even if you ordered 100 of them, that seems...not ideal, and not a company I would ride so hard for.


----------



## AxRookie

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What goofy mental gymnastics some must go through to make their arguments...


Indeed, no argument there...


----------



## AxRookie

xzacx said:


> We’ve really seen it all now—the return of 10 different guitars being used as a defense of Kiesel. Even if you ordered 100 of them, that seems...not ideal, and not a company I would ride so hard for.


You must think no other brand of guitars are ever returned or people are unhappy with one???


----------



## AxRookie

jco5055 said:


> The difference is that when other companies have these issues,which are frankly inevitable for companies of Kiesel's size and by itself aren't a knock on the company overall, you can return them/exchange them (in the case of the Ibanez/Jacksons/ESPs etc of this world who only sell via dealers/guitar center etc) with no issue or harrassment.


That's because all those guitar are made the same...

When my Kiesel was built for ME I had to pick from a lot of options which is something you don't get with all those others, those all are hanging on a wall somewhere and you chose from them...


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> We’ve really seen it all now—the return of 10 different guitars being used as a defense of Kiesel. Even if you ordered 100 of them, that seems...not ideal, and not a company I would ride so hard for.



You can twist everything the way you want to if you're not trying to discuss in good faith.

Nothing was wrong with any of the guitars I returned. The moss green CT7 was not comfortable for me to play standing up but at least i got to try it to figure that out, the v7 multiscale i returned because after a misunderstanding they finished the guitar in aquaburst instead of aqua, the red contour 66 I decided to get a fixed bridge and another color (my pink one) instead, the gold top CT i returned because the wait for the guitar was so long (it was the first they built with the new piezo and we didn't know how long it would take to get it right) that i had just moved on to other things etc etc etc. All of them were well built and played well. A few of them i know for a fact are adored by their new owners.

The fact i could try those guitars at my specs with zero risk and return them no questions asked is a pretty strong argument in my book. Who else allows you to do that? How is that a bad thing?

If you're trying to sneakily find some sort of "gotcha" as in "haha look at that dude, he got 10 guitars with issues out of 100", then certainly not. As mentioned before, out of 100+ (most of all I got second hand, by far), I only had one I would even qualify as "problematic" (but again could have been fixed easily) and maybe a few (maybe 4/5) that were good, but not great (didn't sound great, had slight finish issues etc), and none of those were among the guitars I ordered new.

Edit: actually that's not true now that I think about it. One of those guitars that "didn't sound great" was actually my Blue Vader 6 that I did order to my specs. It came with one of the first batch of Lithium pickups and I hated them. I wanted to return for a refund, but they offered to replace them with M22s instead, free of charge, and that solved the problem. Talk about terrible customer service.


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> If that's the logic, save the Kiesel money and get a used prestige. Good enough for Paul Gilbert.
> 
> 
> *not that I disagree that we could get by with much less expensive instruments than we/I buy.


There is a reason I didn't get one of those or one of many other brands, and this is it...










































This is one of the main reasons I bought the guitar I did and I have never regretted it!


----------



## iamaom

I agree with the fender and gibson joints, but AANJ is 99% as good a neck-thru.


----------



## mbardu

iamaom said:


> I agree with the fender and gibson joints, but AANJ is 99% as good a neck-thru.



True- plus that rosewood PRS neck is always a treat to play.
If only they sounded as good as they look and feel...


----------



## AxRookie

iamaom said:


> I agree with the fender and gibson joints, but AANJ is 99% as good a neck-thru.


I don't doubt that it is but they don't quite look as good, to me, that is... not that there is anything wrong with that!


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> There is a reason I didn't get one of those or one of many other brands, and this is it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the main reasons I bought the guitar I did and I have never regretted it!



I mean, fine? It's your money. Like half my guitars have better heels than this, and half have worse, and basically none of them make any difference if you just put in some practice time to become familiar with it. A lot of luthiers prefer to build with more wood in that section as they feel it has an effect on tone (McNaught notoriously went from a "super nice" heel to a much larger one for tone and stability reasons).

I'm definitely not going to be like... "oh? I guess Jeff Kiesel is the only one capable of building with that heel so I guess I have no choice but to deal with his bullshit." Like no...I'd just buy another ESP horizon.

And I'll just point out you're typically comparing neck-thru to set-neck or bolt-on here, which is obviously not a direct comparison. Like uhh...


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> I mean, fine? It's your money. Like half my guitars have better heels than this, and half have worse, and basically none of them make any difference if you just put in some practice time to become familiar with it. A lot of luthiers prefer to build with more wood in that section as they feel it has an effect on tone (McNaught notoriously went from a "super nice" heel to a much larger one for tone and stability reasons).
> 
> I'm definitely not going to be like... "oh? I guess Jeff Kiesel is the only one capable of building with that heel so I guess I have no choice but to deal with his bullshit." Like no...I'd just buy another ESP horizon.
> 
> And I'll just point out you're typically comparing neck-thru to set-neck or bolt-on here, which is obviously not a direct comparison. Like uhh...


And that is why I didn't buy one of those...

I have read all of the arguments for diff types of bolt-on necks or set necks or what have you but for me, personally, I can't believe that any of them can be in any way (other than you can change a bolt-on) better than a neck-thru guitar... BUT that's just me...

AND none of them look half as good... to ME...


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> And that is why I didn't buy one of those...



To sum up, if you want a Kiesel-style heel, there are thousands of other options out there that leave you with a guitar that doesn't look like a Kiesel (yay!) and doesn't involve dealing with or supporting Jeff (yay!).


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> You're not replying in good faith man. If you made a good faith effort of even reading, you'd see I am not trying to do a breakdown of the thread, point the finger at anyone, or attack you personally if you are taking it that way.
> 
> I am not sure I get your point here. Are you nitpicking numbers for the sake of it?
> The number of cases discussed here or TGP are a handful or a dozen, so I basically doubled in order to not minimize anything...and that's a problem? Even if it was 100 for that matter, it would still be half a percent of issues out of 20,000.
> 
> As for Ibanez, I have no idea about their production numbers. My experience here is only anecdotal (and I don't pretend otherwise) in getting 100% of wonky RG 652 AHM (got 2 wonky ones and so just gave up), and a couple more questionable prestige in the past.



Funny,



> I'd take those odds any day compared to my recent experience with something like Ibanez Prestige for example (closer to 50/50% problems in my recent experience).



This is the bad faith aspect of your argument, playing up that Kiesels defect rate is such a miniscule value. Pinning 50/50 on Ibanez, even if you were speaking on behalf of only your two instruments, your quote points you to Kiesel somehow being more consistent when Ibanez produces far more instruments than Kiesel ever will.

I don't have the metrics to back it up, but we do know that Kiesel produces 4 - 5k instruments a year. Ibanez *absolutely *puts out exponentially more instruments than that a year, they have to with several bodies of production in various parts of the world for an infinitely larger consumer base than Kiesel will ever have.

Even if Ibanez puts out a thousand or multiple thousand duds a year, Kiesel has more in scale to it's overall production. And a track record of completely botching up the response in the process.



> I specifically replied to that. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion on customer service. Or on how a guitar looks. But you can't decide whether it's a good instrument that plays well and sounds good by reading a forum- I'll stand by that 100%
> Plus *again *no one defended the customer service here.



You're *again*, missing the point and dodging it.

If a customer receives their Kiesel with the wrong specs, and tells the story online for others to hear. Readers don't need to own an instrument from Kiesel to then repeat the story that the customer mentioned received their guitar not as ordered.

You're partially right, I definitely can't tell if a guitar plays or sounds good by reading. But if the person who owns the instrument is relaying their feelings about their guitar, then I don't need to own a guitar to validate their opinion.



> That's a figure of speech man- just like the "dozen" above. Some people said so, some others implied so. Maybe not you (which is why you don't have to take it personally), but for example the idea that "you won't be able to return the guitar or they'll make a fuss about it" is just plain wrong.
> 
> I'll take you up on your example. If Chevrolet allowed me to customize exactly the car I wanted among a number of diverse models, with better specs and a price that beats the competition, together with a warranty that's longer than the industry, and the option of being able to return it no question asked for a refund after trying it a while....why wouldn't I consider them? I see where you're trying to go with reliability, but no- reliability would really be an argument in favor of Kiesel, not against. Even if they were at 1% of issues, it would still be a pretty small "risk" at the end of the day for a customized guitar, and I think they are below that- plus they have a very long warranty. And again, you get to return the guitar if you don't like it. Same advice as ever, don't pick non-returnable options and don't try to get into a shouting match with Jeff K.



Another repeatedly missed point by you.

Who orders a base Kiesel anymore? I literally only personally know a single guy who ordered Kiesels with the bare minimum, and the 2nd had a Raw Tone finish which still counts as an Option 50.

Your response here doesn't matter, because you tout that you can order a Kiesel exactly how you want it with a risk free return period. But every case so far Jeff has gone on stream or told his "guys" to tell their customer sorry no returns, unless you foot the bill because of reason x/y/z including the option 50.

Option 50 doesn't absolve an imperfect instrument of a return policy, and Kiesel enjoys playing that fear tactic game. Which again, does not hold up in court. You *can *order a base Kiesel, but look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed and try to count how many of those guitars lack an Option 50 that is easily seen.

Op50 is an anti consumer move, and almost always used to corner the customer into some option that directly benefits Kiesel.


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> To sum up, if you want a Kiesel-style heel, there are thousands of other options out there that leave you with a guitar that doesn't look like a Kiesel (yay!) and doesn't involve dealing with or supporting Jeff (yay!).


Well, that's an incomplete summary, there are many other reasons I chose a Kiesel that I haven't talked about... sooo...

And really my guitar has no heel, that's part of the point...


----------



## AxRookie

Jonathan20022 said:


> If a customer receives their Kiesel with the wrong specs, and tells the story online for others to hear. Readers don't need to own an instrument from Kiesel to then repeat the story that the customer mentioned received their guitar not as ordered.


But there is no way to know how much of their story is accurate or I being told as it really happened and without bias OR that you yourself are then relaying that story accurately and without bias, all people have countless biases with everything... 




Jonathan20022 said:


> You're partially right, I definitely can't tell if a guitar plays or sounds good by reading. But if the person who owns the instrument is relaying their feelings about their guitar, then I don't need to own a guitar to validate their opinion.


how can you validate someone else's feelings about something??? how can you ever truly know someones else's true feelings??? you lost me there...

all people have countless biases with everything and those biases play into what someone feels about something so you can never know if you or anyone else will feel the same way about something, it's unknowable...


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Funny,
> 
> Even if Ibanez puts out a thousand or multiple thousand duds a year, Kiesel has more in scale to it's overall production. And a track record of completely botching up the response in the process.



That's where you're not being honest. I only talked about my personal experience with Ibanez and did not generalize what Ibanez does- except to say it's not perfect and noone is. You are the one trying to generalize and say that "Kiesel has more in scale to it's overall production" whereas you have absolutely no fact to back up that claim.

I'll again stand by that 100% in the sense that, even if Kiesel were to be 1% defect rate (which we're pretty far from), it's still pretty "low risk" for a customized instrument that you can return anyway.



Jonathan20022 said:


> You're *again*, missing the point and dodging it.
> 
> If a customer receives their Kiesel with the wrong specs, and tells the story online for others to hear. Readers don't need to own an instrument from Kiesel to then repeat the story that the customer mentioned received their guitar not as ordered.
> 
> You're partially right, I definitely can't tell if a guitar plays or sounds good by reading. But if the person who owns the instrument is relaying their feelings about their guitar, then I don't need to own a guitar to validate their opinion.



Again, nobody tried to defend the customer services in those few cases. Thus if you agree that you cannot judge the quality of an instrument (and much less a whole brand of instruments) just because of an internet forum or because of some customer service issues, then we're on the same page.



Jonathan20022 said:


> Another repeatedly missed point by yours truly.
> 
> Who orders a base Kiesel anymore? I literally only personally know a single guy who ordered Kiesels with the bare minimum, and the 2nd had a Raw Tone finish which still counts as an Option 50.
> 
> Your response here doesn't matter, because you tout that you can order a Kiesel exactly how you want it with a risk free return period. But every case so far Jeff has gone on stream or told his "guys" to tell their customer sorry no returns, unless you foot the bill because of reason x/y/z including the option 50.
> 
> Option 50 doesn't absolve an imperfect instrument of a return policy, and Kiesel enjoys playing that fear tactic game. Which again, does not hold up in court. You *can *order a base Kiesel, but look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed and try to count how many of those guitars lack an Option 50 that is easily seen.
> 
> Op50 is an anti consumer move, and almost always used to corner the customer into some option that directly benefits Kiesel.



You don't seem to understand what option 50 means, and you don't seem to understand the difference between "non returnable" and "no responsibility".
Option 50 is just an old code for options they did not have in the system. Not all "non returnable" things are option 50s, and not all option 50s are non returnable (although most are).
I don't know why you keep talking about "court", but you may misunderstand as well. Any bespoke/made-to-measure/one-off type of goods that you order will typically have severe limitations on return policies. And that makes sense, if someone spends a lot of time, resources and energy building something to your specs, and everyone was free to refuse the item, it would make no sense.
That said, here Kiesel goes way above and beyond most other options:

they do accept returns even for instruments built to your specs, as long as you don't specifically pick something non returnable
even for instruments with non returnable specs:
you still get the full warranty for anything functional or problematic with your guitar
you are still able to return it if *they *made a mistake in the order (such as in my case for the aqua to aquaburst finish mistake). You may be thinking of the earlier poster who did not return his guitar despite issues with specs. But that person _chose_ not to return it.

however, they will not take a return on a non-returnable instrument just because you do not like how it looks or how it sounds
Now your point seems to be "but everyone _has_ to orders something non returnable these days". I could just answer that everyone who does so gets ample warning, or that noone is forcing you to order a particular option. But your premise itself is wrong. Yes, rawtone is a non returnable option, and it's a popular one. But nobody is forcing anyone to order rawtone. You can still build anything from a headless guitar finished in gloss solid color to a satin finished Carved Top guitar with a floyd to a a superstrat with 3 single coils and a figured top...none of those are base instruments, yet absolutely returnable. The options are in the hundreds and the combinations are in the literal millions. Anecdotes for anecdotes, of the Kiesel owners I know, I'm the only one who actually _did _order something non returnable a couple of times. And I don't regret it either.


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> That's where you're not being honest. I only talked about my personal experience with Ibanez and did not generalize what Ibanez does- except to say it's not perfect and noone is. You are the one trying to generalize and say that "Kiesel has more in scale to it's overall production" whereas you have absolutely no fact to back up that claim.
> 
> I'll again stand by that 100% in the sense that, even if Kiesel were to be 1% defect rate (which we're pretty far from), it's still pretty "low risk" for a customized instrument that you can return anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, nobody tried to defend the customer services in those few cases. Thus if you agree that you cannot judge the quality of an instrument (and much less a whole brand of instruments) just because of an internet forum or because of some customer service issues, then we're on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't seem to understand what option 50 means, and you don't seem to understand the difference between "non returnable" and "no responsibility".
> Option 50 is just an old code for options they did not have in the system. Not all "non returnable" things are option 50s, and not all option 50s are non returnable (although most are).
> I don't know why you keep talking about "court", but you may misunderstand as well. Any bespoke/made-to-measure/one-off type of goods that you order will typically have severe limitations on return policies. And that makes sense, if someone spends a lot of time, resources and energy building something to your specs, and everyone was free to refuse the item, it would make no sense.
> That said, here Kiesel goes way above and beyond most other options:
> 
> they do accept returns even for instruments built to your specs, as long as you don't specifically pick something non returnable
> even for instruments with non returnable specs:
> you still get the full warranty for anything functional or problematic with your guitar
> you are still able to return it if *they *made a mistake in the order (such as in my case for the aqua to aquaburst finish mistake). You may be thinking of the earlier poster who did not return his guitar despite issues with specs. But that person _chose_ not to return it.
> 
> however, they will not take a return on a non-returnable instrument, just because you do not like how it looks or how it sounds
> Now your point seems to be "but everyone _has_ to orders something non returnable these days". I could just answer that everyone who does so gets ample warning, or that noone is forcing you to order a particular option. But your premise itself is wrong. Yes, rawtone is a non returnable option, and it's a popular one. But nobody is forcing anyone to order rawtone. You can still build anything from a headless guitar finished in gloss solid color to a satin finished Carved Top guitar with a floyd to a a superstrat with 3 single coils and a figured top...none of those are base instruments, yet absolutely returnable. The options are in the hundreds and the combinations are in the literal millions. Anecdotes for anecdotes, of the Kiesel owners I know, I'm the only one who actually did order something non returnable a couple of times. And I don't regret it either.


Well said!

You just can't compare what Kiesel does to ANY other guitar builders like Ibanez, Gibson, PRS, or any other builders, they all operate differently but they are all upfront with the dos and don'ts of their respective policies...

BUT Kiesel really has some work to do in how they handle customers and how they enforce their policies, no one is arguing that...


----------



## Jonathan20022

AxRookie said:


> But there is no way to know how much of their story is accurate or I being told as it really happened and without bias OR that you yourself are then relaying that story accurately and without bias, all people have countless biases with everything...
> 
> how can you validate someone else's feelings about something??? how can you ever truly know someones else's true feelings??? you lost me there...
> 
> all people have countless biases with everything and those biases play into what someone feels about something so you can never know if you or anyone else will feel the same way about something, it's unknowable...



I guess everyone online is just a huge liar, and everyone is being paid off by the respective company they order from to pull the keyboard warrior schtick. Are you dense? We're talking about objective truths, not subjective preferences on a guitar.

What if I told I ordered 6 different Kiesels, and my last one which was a part of a twin order came with specs differing from what I agreed to on my spec sheet? Guess I'm just biased  That's some next level blame shifting from you both, wish you the best of luck on your Kiesel purchases and hopefully none of the crap that befell me and many others doesn't happen to you.

@mbardu, you clearly have more time than I do to completely dodge legitimate problematic anti-consumer practices. You repeatedly have these discussions with the same people and seemingly acknowledge the shortcomings. Then proceed to make snide remarks that this entire site is a bunch of hate mongering trolls and dismiss it all to a few issues. Then feign an absurd amount of ignorance when questioned on your bullshit and shilling of high value cheap Kiesels nonstop.

I'm out for the day, have a good weekend folks.


----------



## AxRookie

No, they just have countless biases as do I and believe it or not as do you...









AND those biases go on and on and on...


----------



## Cynicanal

Jonathan20022 said:


> You *can *order a base Kiesel, but look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed and try to count how many of those guitars lack an Option 50 that is easily seen.


The Facebook feed isn't representative of what comes out of the shop -- they try to show off the "coolest" instruments there, so, yes, it's distorted to have a unrepresentatively high number of non-returnable guitars.

Jeff claims that 80%-90% of what they sell is returnable, and most of what I see posted on forums is returnable as well. Just looking at my own Kiesel and those of folks I know personally, of the five orders in that sample (not huge, I know, but still), all but one were returnable.

As far as the "how many good vs. bad" goes, of the four Kiesels I've held in my hands, all four were excellent (albeit, all were neck-throughs, and the builds with non-cosmetic problems all seem to be bolt-ons; frankly, their bolt-on joint is a flawed design, and I'll be the first to say you'd have to be insane to buy a Kiesel bolt-on with some of what we know). To compare, MIJ Ibby, MIK PRS, and MIK Schecter have similarly high hit-rates (I've played a bad MIK Schecter _once_ out of dozens, and never a bad MIJ Ibby or MIK PRS), MII Ibby has been less than 50% for decent instruments, and MII LTD has been exactly 50/50 on build quality for me (but I hate their "thin U" profile and narrower-than-normal string spacing anyways).


----------



## cip 123

Holy shit how did you turn, useless banter about Jeff bevel, in to this?


----------



## AxRookie

Talking about Kiesel customer service I emaild Joe Stone asking how to buy another of the volume knobs for my guitar because I knicked one while working on it doing some of my own customizing and without a word, one just showed up today at no charge!!!

Now that was way COOL!


----------



## AxRookie

davefishman777 said:


> Sorry wrong quote, I hate when that happens I was replying to a different comment


I hate it when that happens! lol


----------



## Jonathan20022

AxRookie said:


> No, they just have countless biases as do I and believe it or not as do you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND those biases go on and on and on...




Enjoy your Kiesels man


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I guess everyone online is just a huge liar, and everyone is being paid off by the respective company they order from to pull the keyboard warrior schtick. Are you dense? We're talking about objective truths, not subjective preferences on a guitar.
> 
> What if I told I ordered 6 different Kiesels, and my last one which was a part of a twin order came with specs differing from what I agreed to on my spec sheet? Guess I'm just biased  That's some next level blame shifting from you both, wish you the best of luck on your Kiesel purchases and hopefully none of the crap that befell me and many others doesn't happen to you.



Did you say "hey guys, you got a spec wrong, I'd like to return it" and they replied no? Because that's the kind of thing everyone seems to imply, yet I have not seen this happen. Did anyone say they never make any issues in specs? Nope, that happens- and they could enhance their process there, yeah no question.

Again-I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with them. You're clearly not the only one. And maybe you're actually not the right target to my messages either. I'm just trying to separate the very legitimate complaints from the made up BS against the brand.



Jonathan20022 said:


> @mbardu, you clearly have more time than I do to completely dodge legitimate problematic anti-consumer practices. You repeatedly have these discussions with the same people and seemingly acknowledge the shortcomings. Then proceed to make snide remarks that this entire site is a bunch of hate mongering trolls and dismiss it all to a few issues. Then feign an absurd amount of ignorance when questioned on your bullshit and shilling of high value cheap Kiesels nonstop.
> 
> I'm out for the day, have a good weekend folks.



That might be strange to you, but it's possible to acknowledge some shortcomings, while 1-not having to make up new ones just for the sake of it and 2-setting the record straight on made up BS (such as the "they won't accept your return or they will make a drama about it" or "they won't fix my guitar because it had an option 50").

In the same spirit, saying that issues are few and far between (again, doubt it's 100 out of 20,000) is not denying that still they could seriously improve on their fuckups. But it doesn't mean a fuckup is guaranteed, quite the opposite- Kiesel is probably one of the "safest" option out there for that price range.

Also, you can chill on the "legitimate problematic anti-consumer practices", court cases, lawsuits etc. The only people who cannot return instruments have made that conscious decision after multiple warnings, and are still supported by the full manufacturer warranty in case of manufacturing defect. Even in those cases, you can still return the instrument if the issue is on their part. If you _decide not to return_ it though, it's not their fault. That's more than most custom builders can promise. Btw, everyone else (without non returnable options) can return their custom-specced guitar no questions asked. Who else allows for that?

Finally, if you have a problem with my "snide remarks", then maybe you should check your objectivity? The level of unsupported vitriol and hatred against Kiesel (and the few people who don't universally shit on them) on this site is way waaayyyy higher than the other way around. As far as I'm concerned, I do my best to be factual and polite- and don't attack anyone in particular. But if there's something you took personally, then happy to rectify that.
Sounds from your last post like you are the one trying to turn that discussion to a personal attack against me instead of replying on anything factual instead (i did reply on all your arguments I believe) ... but hey, I'll leave you the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers and good weekend to you too!

PS: dont call the rookie dense. Just proves his point about bias, and that's not very civil either.


----------



## AxRookie

Jonathan20022 said:


> Enjoy your Kiesels man


I only have one but you can believe I am!


----------



## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> Holy shit how did you turn, useless banter about Jeff bevel, in to this?



I mean, half is banter, the other half is 100% legitimate complaints, the other half is made up BS to pile on against the company (wait...that's a lot of halves...) ... so I'm at least trying to reply on the stuff that's not justified.

Banter though- that I'm all for. Can't believe I haven't seen him called Jeff Bievels before...


----------



## SamSam

AxRookie said:


> Well, that's an incomplete summary, there are many other reasons I chose a Kiesel that I haven't talked about... sooo...
> 
> And really my guitar has no heel, that's part of the point...



I'm glad you like your guitar, but if you think that it's a "No heel" neck joint you are reeeally missing out on the good shit...


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> I mean, half is banter, the other half is 100% legitimate complaints, the other half is made up BS to pile on against the company (wait...that's a lot of halves...) ... so I'm at least trying to reply on the stuff that's not justified.
> 
> Banter though- that I'm all for. Can't believe I haven't seen him called Jeff Bievels before...


So half is banter, half is complaints, there you go 100%. Just leave it man, it's the internet, you're not going to change anyones opinion as best you try.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

AxRookie said:


> Indeed, no argument there...


Funny you should quote that, since I was referring to you.


----------



## spudmunkey

Cynicanal said:


> The Facebook feed isn't representative of what comes out of the shop -- they try to show off the "coolest" instruments there, so, yes, it's distorted to have a unrepresentatively high number of non-returnable guitars.



This. For years people were saying the Tl60 was going away because there's weren't many NGD posts online, but for a time, it was one of their best-selling models. It was only discontinued when it was shortly-thereafter replaced by another tele-shaped model (their new Solo model). Kiesel only does ONE magazine print ad, which still has a positive ROI for them from people who just don't shop or post online: Vintage Guitar magazine. just like how SSO isn't indicative of the guitar industry as a whole (much like how any enthusiast forum isn't indicative of the majority of customers), their Facebook and IG feed are just what catches their eyes when wandering through their shop.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> This. For years people were saying the Tl60 was going away because there's weren't many NGD posts online, but for a time, it was one of their best-selling models. It was only discontinued when it was shortly-thereafter replaced by another tele-shaped model (their new Solo model). Kiesel only does ONE magazine print ad, which still has a positive ROI for them from people who just don't shop or post online: Vintage Guitar magazine. just like how SSO isn't indicative of the guitar industry as a whole (much like how any enthusiast forum isn't indicative of the majority of customers), their Facebook and IG feed are just what catches their eyes when wandering through their shop.



While I think this is probably true, it’s still a bit disingenuous to use the return policy as a selling point while mostly showcasing things that wouldn’t be returnable. I remember seeing videos of Jeff constantly pushing those stained ash finishes, which don’t seem to have any real reason to not be returnable other than an excuse to eliminate the policy on a popular option.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> While I think this is probably true, it’s still a bit disingenuous to use the return policy as a selling point while mostly showcasing things that wouldn’t be returnable. I remember seeing videos of Jeff constantly pushing those stained ash finishes, which don’t seem to have any real reason to not be returnable other than an excuse to eliminate the policy on a popular option.



Dang...it's true that new options are often non returnable...at first, but it's really a shame you chose that example in particular.

Antique ash stain _used _to be a non-returnable option early on when it was new and unusual.
But since it's become popular, it's been added to the online builder and made returnable; making it available precisely as one of the things that customers can order just to try and see- and still be able return without a hassle if they're not happy about how it looks. Just adding to the list of millions of combinations that make the argument "_but you have to order something non-returnable, you don't have a choice_" a pretty fake argument.

Edit: I also checked the current in-stock guitars
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitarsinstock/electric-guitars
and although from time to time they do end up having a lot of "no 10-day trial on this instrument", the large majority of guitars right now have no such limitations, even for some pretty wild finishes.

I bet that 80% of the people complaining about the return policy like it's a problem haven't looked into it for real, are giving wrong or misleading information on purpose just to be anti-Kiesel, or have no real interest in this type of instrument anyway in the first place and are just here because they don't like the brand on principle.
And now that i think about it, that's not only for the return policy, same for things like them supposedly lowering their production standards or other tropes that frequently pop up.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

mbardu said:


> Dang...it's true that new options are often non returnable...at first, but it's really a shame you chose that example in particular.




New options... The color I chose like 3 years ago is still called op50. Stop coming into the shit talk thread to defend and go to the compliment thread to talk them up. Go away.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Dang...it's true that new options are often non returnable...at first, but it's really a shame you chose that example in particular.
> 
> Antique ash stain _used _to be a non-returnable option early on when it was new and unusual.
> But since it's become popular, it's been added to the online builder and made returnable; making it available precisely as one of the things that customers can order just to try and see- and still be able return without a hassle if they're not happy about how it looks. Just adding to the list of millions of combinations that make the argument "_but you have to order something non-returnable, you don't have a choice_" a pretty fake argument.





mbardu said:


> Yes, rawtone is a non returnable option, and it's a popular one.



Are those not the same thing? Because that's what I was referring to (apologies for not knowing the difference between these made-up finish style names), so at best you're arguing a technicality. One popular finish is non-returnable while another isn't—do you not see that it's the same exact point?


----------



## AxRookie

SamSam said:


> I'm glad you like your guitar, but if you think that it's a "No heel" neck joint you are reeeally missing out on the good shit...


It has no neck joint... lol


----------



## AxRookie

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Funny you should quote that, since I was referring to you.


That's funny since I thought it applied to many...



cip 123 said:


> So half is banter, half is complaints, there you go 100%. Just leave it man, it's the internet, you're not going to change anyones opinion as best you try.


It doesn't hurt to tell your experiences, when people have bad ones they are quick to talk about it and the bad stuff is always easier to believe, people are funny that way...



Señor Voorhees said:


> New options... The color I chose like 3 years ago is still called op50. Stop coming into *the shit talk thread* to defend and go to the compliment thread to talk them up. Go away.


You hit the nail on the head describing what this thread has turned into.

I know I haven't defended any of the bad stuff I've read they've done because really most of it IF true is undefendable...


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Are those not the same thing? Because that's what I was referring to (apologies for not knowing the difference between these made-up finish style names), so at best you're arguing a technicality. One popular finish is non-returnable while another isn't—do you not see that it's the same exact point?



No it's not the same thing. I like how you always show that you don't know what you're talking about, don't reply when proven wrong, or just move the goalposts when convenient. And people buy it as long as it's anti-kiesel 

Did i say all options are returnable? No. Rawtone is not. Some other popular combinations are probably not either. But the crowd here is making the argument that its impossible to order something returnable and that's either dumb or purposeful lie.


----------



## mbardu

Señor Voorhees said:


> New options... The color I chose like 3 years ago is still called op50. Stop coming into the shit talk thread to defend and go to the compliment thread to talk them up. Go away.



I like how your single argument is "i don't know how to reply so go away". Do you need...a safe hating space or something? Have I insulted you personally? 

Nobody pretended that everything is returnable. They make very clear what is and what isn't.

But they have millions of combinations that are returnable and yet sso acts like you are coerced in buying a guitar you don't want and being stuck with it. The truth doesn't matter much to many here, but if it does to you, then that part is definitely not true.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

AxRookie said:


> That's funny since I thought it applied to many...
> 
> It doesn't hurt to tell your experiences, when people have bad ones they are quit to talk about it and the bad stuff is always easier to believe, people are funny that way...
> 
> You hit the nail on the head describing what this thread has turned into.
> 
> I know I haven't defended any of the bad stuff I've read they've done because really most of it IF true is undefendable...


You're the one going to great lengths to defend the honor of a company whose owner shit talks people on social media like a fucking dickhead. I don't think stanning and white knighting him will get you a free guitar, but you do you.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> But the crowd here is making the argument that its impossible to order something returnable and that's either dumb or purposeful lie.



No, YOU'RE saying people are saying that. What people are actually saying is it's BS to flaunt a return policy with instruments that wouldn't be returnable. It doesn't mean they don't have seven million options what would be returnable. Those are two separate points.


----------



## spudmunkey

xzacx said:


> Are those not the same thing? Because that's what I was referring to (apologies for not knowing the difference between these made-up finish style names), so at best you're arguing a technicality. One popular finish is non-returnable while another isn't—do you not see that it's the same exact point?



"Raw tone" is different than "antique ash". Raw tone us a thin statin finish that can be combined with most paints/stains. Antie Ash is a grain darkening stain that's partially sanded back, and can be had in gloss, satin, or the "raw tone satin finish".


----------



## AxRookie

Spaced Out Ace said:


> You're the one going to great lengths to defend the honor of a company whose owner shit talks people on social media like a fucking dickhead. I don't think stanning and white knighting him will get you a free guitar, but you do you.


He not defending anything, he setting the record straight after the blanket statements and reading stuff that's just flat out untrue...


----------



## Spicypickles

A big issue for me was the “no way we can do this” when emailed about certain specs and finishes, then a few months later coming out and saying “we came up with a radical new idea to make sure this was ‘done right’”. 

This was my only personal dealings with keisels, apart from playing a few. The guitars themselves were fine, nothing special though IMO, clearly not for me, but the straight out dishonesty was pretty lame.


----------



## AxRookie

xzacx said:


> No, YOU'RE saying people are saying that. What people are actually saying is it's BS to flaunt a return policy with instruments that wouldn't be returnable. It doesn't mean they don't have seven million options what would be returnable. Those are two separate points.


I haven't seen that anywhere, can you show me an example of that happening?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

AxRookie said:


> He not defending anything, he setting the record straight after the blanket statements and reading stuff that's just flat out untrue...


Caveman defend, caveman smash troll!


----------



## AxRookie

Spicypickles said:


> A big issue for me was the “no way we can do this” when emailed about certain specs and finishes, then a few months later coming out and saying “we came up with a radical new idea to make sure this was ‘done right’”.


are you saying their "radical new idea" was the same as your "certain specs and finishes" you had asked for???


----------



## AxRookie

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Caveman defend, caveman smash troll!


So you're a caveman??? you sound like the hulk...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

AxRookie said:


> So you're a caveman???


You typed that in a rather odd fashion. For one, it should be "he's," and for another, I was referring to you, so why are you talking in the third person? Rather odd, I must say.


----------



## AxRookie

It's "so you are a caveman?" because that's how you were talking...

and Grammarly didn't take issue with it? 

and really? an ad hominem attack??? wow, you must not have a good argument you believe in?


----------



## AxRookie

I must say SSO is the first of the MANY guitar forums I've seen that allows agenda posts???

When I tried to complain about what happened to me at ANY other guitar forum the thread was removed and I was warned not to do it again or be banned???


----------



## mbardu

AxRookie said:


> I haven't seen that anywhere, can you show me an example of that happening?



An example of someone being promised that an instrument would be returnable while that was not actually the case? I don't think anybody will be able to show you that (when you order something non returnable, they confirm that with you on the phone, or in bold letters on the invoice they send you for verification before paying)...but let's wait!



xzacx said:


> No, YOU'RE saying people are saying that. What people are actually saying is it's BS to flaunt a return policy with instruments that wouldn't be returnable. It doesn't mean they don't have seven million options what would be returnable. Those are two separate points.



Well some people are saying that. Maybe not you then. And if that's not what you meant, then that's perfectly fine. But if so, then _what did you mean_? What is the problem about flaunting that policy?


That people will be misled and think their build is returnable while it's not? Not possible, that won't happen, they tell you multiple times on the phone, and/or it's there on the invoice that you have to confirm before they even accept your payment.
That they should support instruments that are non-returnable with the same warranty, and guarantee them to be free from defects? Good news, they do exactly that, and have done refunds, rebuilds, and fixes for "non-returnable" instruments in the past. If it's their fault, they'll fix it.
That they should stop flaunting so many non returnable things in their social media? Well I literally just scrolled through their Facebook page and except 2 crackle guitars, all the others look like they would be absolutely returnable. Look at their latest big reveal for the Aries neck through. Looks like there are 0 builds with options 50 there. Can they not be proud of a policy that covers upwards of 80% of their social media (and probably upwards of 90% of their actual builds)?
That it's unfair that on top of the million of returnable options that are available that they would even _dare _to add a few more new things that do void that policy? What benefit would buyers get from having _less _options? Again, nobody is being misled.
That even things clearly marked as non-returnable should be returnable if somehow a customer decides that after all he has buyer's remorse? Would any other Custom Shop (for most other custom shops every build is final and non-returnable) be happy with that?
What is your point exactly?

I'm absolutely OK with them flaunting their return policy that is awesome and pretty unique in the industry. It's an incredible plus of Kiesel, that no other competitor comes even close to offering.

Can you order a Jackson Custom Shop and tell them 2 years later when you get your guitar "naah actually I changed my mind, please change that spec or that spec"? Or an ESP Custom Shop? Or even a Balaguer (which...even that one is more expensive than Kiesel)? Or can you tell them you want a full refund because it didn't sound exactly like you expected it to? Yeah, good luck with that!
I've used the Kiesel policy many times to try new things, or narrow down my next build, and they have never given me any hassle whatsoever. So again, what's wrong with offering that? Why wouldn't they be proud of that? Should they somehow stop offering the policy just because you personally have a beef against them?

Again, besides always looking for something against Kiesel without much actual knowledge of what they do, what is your point?


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> An example of someone being promised that an instrument would be returnable while that was not actually the case? I don't think anybody will be able to show you that (when you order something non returnable, they confirm that with you on the phone, or in bold letters on the invoice they send you for verification before paying)...but let's wait!


They certainly made everything clear with me because there was no way to overlook their policies...

And I tried to see if they would make an exception after I realized there was something else I wanted and NO DICE! but I wasn't mad at them, I was mad at myself...


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> I must say SSO is the first of the MANY guitar forums I've seen that allows agenda posts???
> 
> When I tried to complain about what happened to me at ANY other guitar forum the thread was removed and I was warned not to do it again or be banned???



I guess by "agenda post" you mean "stories of shitty things a company has done", which is like, thank god SSO allows this stuff. But my definition of an "agenda post" would be some guy that comes in here posting literally pages full of messages in trying to steer the conversation to support their own opinion. If we vote by numbers, this thread is like 50 vs. 2 Kiesel sucks. The last 10 pages is literally 2 pro-Kiesel people trying to rationalize bad experiences -to the people that experienced them-. It is time to stop guys, you're not making any new points here.

I was actually considering a Kiesel some years ago and was chatting to Chris about speccing it out, mostly because @Jonathan20022 had some cool ones and they were pretty cheap compared to most of my guitars. But then Jonathan, who is a repeat customer for many years of the high-end "Kiesel Edition" type models got totally shafted when they built him ones to the wrong specs. 

They treated him so bad he sold all his Kiesels, and I threw out the idea of ordering one as fast as humanly possible. Same ol' story - repeat customer, thousand and thousand of dollars into the company, company fucks up, won't really admit it or remedy it.


----------



## chipchappy

phew, took me a few minutes to catch up with all the hubub! Essay long posts, vicious barbs, delicious sarcasm and even some hard back pedaling. Still love this thread all these *years *later!

I'm still trying to figure out how much AxRookie and mbardsomething get paid an hour to defend Jeff, or at least I hope they get paid, brutal! But in this economy I guess you gotta do what you can...

(For what it's worth, I had a Holdsworth sig that I got second hand a year or so ago. Fine guitar, played great, but I sold it right after Jeffs response to that loyal customer. Business ethics matter a lot to me, no other reason than that!)


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> I guess by "agenda post" you mean "stories of shitty things a company has done", which is like, thank god SSO allows this stuff. But my definition of an "agenda post" would be some guy that comes in here posting literally pages full of messages in trying to steer the conversation to support their own opinion. If we vote by numbers, this thread is like 50 vs. 2 Kiesel sucks. The last 10 pages is literally 2 pro-Kiesel people trying to rationalize bad experiences -to the people that experienced them-. It is time to stop guys, you're not making any new points here.
> 
> I was actually considering a Kiesel some years ago and was chatting to Chris about speccing it out, mostly because @Jonathan20022 had some cool ones and they were pretty cheap compared to most of my guitars. But then Jonathan, who is a repeat customer for many years of the high-end "Kiesel Edition" type models got totally shafted when they built him ones to the wrong specs.
> 
> They treated him so bad he sold all his Kiesels, and I threw out the idea of ordering one as fast as humanly possible. Same ol' story - repeat customer, thousand and thousand of dollars into the company, company fucks up, won't really admit it or remedy it.


No what I think THEIR rule means is no posts of people bad-mouthing a brand because they don't like it BUT I also like that members are allowed to air their legitimate grievances at SSO (I don't know why people don't just say "here") because I think it's a good thing!



chipchappy said:


> (For what it's worth, I had a Holdsworth sig that I got second hand a year or so ago. Fine guitar, played great, but I sold it right after Jeffs response to that loyal customer. Business ethics matter a lot to me, no other reason than that!)


Really??? that's the only reason you sold a guitar you liked??? I wouldn't sell my guitar if Jeff killed a baby in front of its mother! I just might not buy another...


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> No what I think THEIR rule means is no posts of people bad-mouthing a brand because they don't like it BUT I also like that members are allowed to air their legitimate grievances at SSO (I don't know why people don't just say "here") because I think it's a good thing!



Now you want to change the way we refer to this forum as well? ::sigh::

Are you trying to say I can't have an opinion on that customer service, that I can't listen to the story and weigh in on it, just because it didn't happen directly to me? Kiesel's customer service situation is out there in the public. We can all weigh in on whether it's good or bad, or a "legitimate grievance". 

The verdict in this thread is really clear on what the general consensus is, so why don't you guys accept that a majority of us here find Jeff's business practices awful, and no amount of you liking your guitars is going to address the things Jeff has done and continues to do?


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> Now you want to change the way we refer to this forum as well? ::sigh::
> 
> Are you trying to say I can't have an opinion on that customer service, that I can't listen to the story and weigh in on it, just because it didn't happen directly to me? Kiesel's customer service situation is out there in the public. We can all weigh in on whether it's good or bad, or a "legitimate grievance".
> 
> The verdict in this thread is really clear on what the general consensus is, so why don't you guys accept that a majority of us here find Jeff's business practices awful, and no amount of you liking your guitars is going to address the things Jeff has done and continues to do?


I'm not saying any of that??? It's THEIR rule, not mine!

And you can call this forum anything you like???

BUT if something didn't happen to you HOW do you know it happened as it was presented and it was presented without bias??? and when you or anyone else repeats what they read how can anyone know they are repeating it accurately and without their own biases??? after all, everyone has countless biases that make repeating something accurately a near impossibility... That's a known fact!


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I guess by "agenda post" you mean "stories of shitty things a company has done", which is like, thank god SSO allows this stuff. But my definition of an "agenda post" would be some guy that comes in here posting literally pages full of messages in trying to steer the conversation to support their own opinion. If we vote by numbers, this thread is like 50 vs. 2 Kiesel sucks. The last 10 pages is literally 2 pro-Kiesel people trying to rationalize bad experiences -to the people that experienced them-. It is time to stop guys, you're not making any new points here.



Could you show me where I tried to rationalize a bad experience? Just so that I can see what you're talking about. I'm usually among the first one to criticize the bad handling from their customer service and Jeff's bad attitude.

In the last couple of pages, I'm just replying on very separate topics to correct very false statements that people with very little knowledge of Kiesel make just out of random spite for the brand.

If the absolute best point you can come up with is that "there's 50 of us vs 2 of them", then it doesn't shine a really positive light on the arguments on side of the mob. I'd love to see any real reply to my points, but usually people can't find anything to reply and just switch to insults or "go away". As far as I'm concerned, I'm not 50 people, but at least I didn't insult anyone. The "dense" or "sucks" etc etc kinda show that there's no real argument and it's really a mob mentality rather than anything else.



narad said:


> I was actually considering a Kiesel some years ago and was chatting to Chris about speccing it out, mostly because @Jonathan20022 had some cool ones and they were pretty cheap compared to most of my guitars. But then Jonathan, who is a repeat customer for many years of the high-end "Kiesel Edition" type models got totally shafted when they built him ones to the wrong specs.
> 
> They treated him so bad he sold all his Kiesels, and I threw out the idea of ordering one as fast as humanly possible. Same ol' story - repeat customer, thousand and thousand of dollars into the company, company fucks up, won't really admit it or remedy it.



If your point there is that you'd rather believe and consider a single specific person on the internet (or even just a few of those cases- over probably tens of thousands of people who got something perfect)- instead of actually trying and forging your own opinion so that you know what you're talking about, then I guess you do you. I actually have no problem with people who decide to totally forgo the brand, it's not for everyone.

Again, if you take into account _everything _and the customer service issues from the brand outweigh everything else from your perspective, then I respect that. But if people with no knowledge start spewing unrelated lies, then it's not helpful to anyone.


----------



## mbardu

chipchappy said:


> phew, took me a few minutes to catch up with all the hubub! Essay long posts, vicious barbs, delicious sarcasm and even some hard back pedaling. Still love this thread all these *years *later!
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out how much AxRookie and mbardsomething get paid an hour to defend Jeff, or at least I hope they get paid, brutal! But in this economy I guess you gotta do what you can...
> 
> (For what it's worth, I had a Holdsworth sig that I got second hand a year or so ago. Fine guitar, played great, but I sold it right after Jeffs response to that loyal customer. Business ethics matter a lot to me, no other reason than that!)



Cool cool cool. If you have any actual point or argument instead of the overplayed "hur dur Kiesel shills", please feel free to share.
If that's all you have, it's a shame... Even if I didn't have a job, I very much doubt Jeff would want to pay me considering I'm usually one of the first to criticize his attitude. Plus it's well know that when I shill on the internet, I exclusively get paid in Soros Bucks $$$ to criticize the president. I have standards thank you very much.


----------



## chipchappy

AxRookie said:


> I wouldn't sell my guitar if Jeff killed a baby in front of its mother!



now we're getting somewhere! Good!



mbarsomething said:


> If that's all you have, it's a shame...



That's all I got! Sorry to disappoint! Good luck buddy!


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> If your point there is that you'd rather believe and consider a single specific person on the internet (or even just a few of those cases- over probably tens of thousands of people who got something perfect)- instead of actually trying and forging your own opinion so that you know what you're talking about, then I guess you do you. I actually have no problem with people who decide to totally forgo the brand, it's not for everyone.



What a shitty spin you put on it. First, Jonathan's not a specific person on the internet, he's a guy I've known for years and had over to my place, and is one of the nicest guys ever (when he's not on the internet). So in short, yes, I have seen the correspondence between him and Kiesel, and I know the situation, and I find it to be absolutely unacceptable. That is forging my own opinion. I know what I'm talking about. Stop trying to discredit an opinion because you don't like it.

To me, customer service is not something you define by %-no-problem situations, it's how you deal with those situations where something does go wrong. Even if Jonathan was the only person who was wronged by Jeff, it would still be enough to deem it shitty customer service, because it was rude, unapologetic, and presented the customer with little chance of leaving the transaction satisfied. And that's in the case where the fuck-up was entirely on Kiesel's end. No customer deserves that, and especially no big-money repeat customer, if you have any business acumen at all.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I wonder if dude's post count in this thread is still only half of his total post count?


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> What a shitty spin you put on it. First, Jonathan's not a specific person on the internet, he's a guy I've known for years and had over to my place, and is one of the nicest guys ever (when he's not on the internet). So in short, yes, I have seen the correspondence between him and Kiesel, and I know the situation, and I find it to be absolutely unacceptable. That is forging my own opinion. I know what I'm talking about. Stop trying to discredit an opinion because you don't like it.
> 
> To me, customer service is not something you define by %-no-problem situations, it's how you deal with those situations where something does go wrong. Even if Jonathan was the only person who was wronged by Jeff, it would still be enough to deem it shitty customer service, because it was rude, unapologetic, and presented the customer with little chance of leaving the transaction satisfied. And that's in the case where the fuck-up was entirely on Kiesel's end. No customer deserves that, and especially no big-money repeat customer, if you have any business acumen at all.



I'm not denying anything you're saying.
Again, im always the first to criticize lapses in customer service. That's not the discussion im having so you're fighting a strawman. If the customer service issues of some people are enough to make you not consider the brand, I understand and respect that.

I just don't like lies, and people who know nothing of the brand and make easily proven lies ("hur dur they will force you to order non returnable and then wont take your return") are not helping anyone. And it's not because some buyers have been slighted by Jeff or Mike that those totally unrelated lies suddenly become the truth, no matter how much sso loves to hate.

Finally, customer service and business ethics is important. But there are way worse offenders in the guitar business than Kiesel. Guitarcenter comes to mind. And for that matter, i don't know that ibanez or fender or many others have particularly more ethical practices. Its just that nobody interacts with them, but instead go through dealers and retailers instead. Or buy a used Prestige. When I'm talking %, im not talking % of issues. I'm talking % of issues that were treated poorly. Sso acts like every issue is treated poorly, but that's far from the case. You just hear only these ones because nobody talks about things that go well.


----------



## AxRookie

chipchappy said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how much AxRookie and mbardsomething get paid an hour to defend Jeff, or at least I hope they get paid, brutal! But in this economy I guess you gotta do what you can...


I haven't defended anyone OR anything, what in the world are you talking about???


----------



## mbardu

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I wonder if dude's post count in this thread is still only half of his total post count?



You really have the best arguments wow you're out of control


----------



## AxRookie

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I wonder if dude's post count in this thread is still only half of his total post count?


What does that have to do with anything being talked about in this thread??

Of all the threads I've commented in it happens to be this one has by far the most activity and I haven't been here long so the stats track...


----------



## AxRookie

chipchappy said:


> now we're getting somewhere! Good!


It would be the same if it was any brand of guitar, I wouldn't sell a guitar I wanted and been looking for just because I didn't like what someone said...

After I sold it then what? go buy a guitar that isn't what I want???


----------



## chipchappy

AxRookie said:


> I haven't defended anyone OR anything, what in the world are you talking about???



i dont know??? maybe the last couple pages??? 

it's true you seem impartial and unbiased i take it all back

also I love that you replied to the second part of my post (by saying you'd kill a baby or whatever that weird comparison was) and then waited a few posts and then replied to the first part. You're all over the place!


----------



## chipchappy

AxRookie said:


> It would be the same if it was any brand of guitar, I wouldn't sell a guitar I wanted and been looking for just because I didn't like what someone said...



not JUST what someone said, how they BEHAVED, and that distinction is why you aren't understanding this whole thread! Budda said it best, yall don't get it!

Anyhow, I'm done, I'm gonna go play guitar. Later!


----------



## AxRookie

chipchappy said:


> not JUST what someone said, how they BEHAVED, and that distinction is why you aren't understanding this whole thread! Budda said it best, yall don't get it!
> 
> Anyhow, I'm done, I'm gonna go play guitar. Later!


To be clear I don't care what one person said OR did and I wasn't involved, I'm not going to let that keep me from getting what I want if it turns out they are the only place that I can find that has what I'm looking for, that is as long as I don't have to interact with that shitty person, after all, Kiesel is not just one person, it's a lot of people working hard to make great guitars and I'm not looking to put hard-working people out of a job because their leader is a shitty person!


----------



## Randy

Whew, greatest tag-team since the Steiner Brothers.


----------



## AxRookie

Randy said:


> Whew, greatest tag-team since the Steiner Brothers.


Glad I can help! lol


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

mbardu said:


> You really have the best arguments wow you're out of control


I think Randy will let me know when I'm out of control, MB.



AxRookie said:


> What does that have to do with anything being talked about in this thread??
> 
> Of all the threads I've commented in it happens to be this one has by far the most activity and I haven't been here long so the stats track...


Because you seem like a troll. 



Randy said:


> Whew, greatest tag-team since the Steiner Brothers.


WELLLLLLLLL! I guess we'll just have to see about that won't we!? OHHHHH WHAT A RUSH!


----------



## AxRookie

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Because you seem like a troll.


LOL you think I seem like a troll??? I'm talking from real-world experience about the topic of the thread while you seem to be talking only about the people sharing their experiences and prodding them and you think I seem like the troll here???

That's too funny! lol

People with no argument always resort to calling people a troll...


----------



## Leviathus

Idk what's going on in here but i wish Matias would chime in.


----------



## AxRookie

Leviathus said:


> Idk what's going on in here but i wish Matias would chime in.


Matias doesn't seem to have ever posted here??? oops, I mean Matias doesn't seem to have ever posted at SSO...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Leviathus said:


> Idk what's going on in here but i wish Matias would chime in.



He might not be the hero SSO needs, but he's certainly the one it deserves.


----------



## AxRookie

MaxOfMetal said:


> He might not be the hero SSO needs, but he's certainly the one it deserves.


Pardon my ignorance but who is he? I see that he has no posts at SSO?

The reason I ask is you all seem to know him?

BTW I'm a big trem fan and wouldn't be without one! You should see what Kiesel did with the locking nut setting mine up! not good...


----------



## spudmunkey

Cliff's notes: Mattias is a vocal critic of Jeff Kiesel, and I believe has been banned from the forum. He, too, owns a JB100C.


----------



## AxRookie

spudmunkey said:


> He, too, owns a JB100C.


Well that's one check in my "pros" column on my "pros and cons" checklist! lol

I guess he can't be all bad... lol

EDIT - did you mean JB*200*C? That's what mine is...


----------



## spudmunkey

AxRookie said:


> Well that's one check in my "pros" column on my "pros and cons" checklist! lol
> 
> I guess he can't be all bad... lol
> 
> EDIT - did you mean JB*200*C? That's what mine is...



Dang, yes. Apparently when I type JB200C, my phone wants to autocorrect it to JB100C (which *was* a real model, but was recently retired).


----------



## AxRookie

spudmunkey said:


> Dang, yes. Apparently when I type JB200C, my phone wants to autocorrect it to JB100C (which *was* a real model, but was recently retired).


It happens to the best of us, and I should know because I'm the best of us! lol

I just love that joke! lol


----------



## USMarine75




----------



## AxRookie




----------



## SamSam

AxRookie said:


> It has no neck joint... lol



It's just your bog standard neck through heel. Have you ever seen a kxk or strandberg neck through heel?


----------



## Spicypickles

Have you seen a RAN bolt on? They’re basically “neckthrough” heels, just have bolts below that’s.


----------



## prlgmnr

Does anyone play their guitars anymore?

"I could practise, or I could type up multiple thousands of words that no one will read in response to arguments that no one has made"


----------



## narad

SamSam said:


> It's just your bog standard neck through heel. Have you ever seen a kxk or strandberg neck through heel?



Yea, the Kiesel one is just standard, and only seems like an improvement because he compared it to a bunch of guitars designed in the 1950s (which I still enjoy and where the heel was never really an impediment in the first place). But then there's this:


----------



## cip 123

narad said:


> Yea, the Kiesel one is just standard, and only seems like an improvement because he compared it to a bunch of guitars designed in the 1950s (which I still enjoy and where the heel was never really an impediment in the first place). But then there's this:


The amazing thing is Parkers aren’t neck thru


----------



## diagrammatiks

prlgmnr said:


> Does anyone play their guitars anymore?
> 
> "I could practise, or I could type up multiple thousands of words that no one will read in response to arguments that no one has made"



I mean I know that if I keep posting in this shit post thread I'm going to get shit on.

but apparently I like getting shit on so it's a ok.

I'm not saying that that's anyone here. but you know.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean I know that if I keep posting in this shit post thread I'm going to get shit on.
> 
> but apparently I like getting shit on so it's a ok.
> 
> I'm not saying that that's anyone here. but you know.



My fetish is being told repeatedly that bad customer service is really good customer service because les pauls have a headstock joint that is prone to breaking. This thread is doing wonders for me.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> My fetish is being told repeatedly that bad customer service is really good customer service because les pauls have a headstock joint that is prone to breaking. This thread is doing wonders for me.



No, you might not actually realize it, but apparently your fetish is strawmen that you can rage against, because nobody ever defended Kiesel customer service. 

And looks like it's a shared one around here too!


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


>



Parkers don't count, they might as well be magical unicorns from space with how unique they are


----------



## USMarine75

narad said:


> My fetish is being told repeatedly that bad customer service is really good customer service because les pauls have a headstock joint that is prone to breaking. This thread is doing wonders for me.



Well in all fairness Gibson should sue Kiesel and others for stealing their headless guitar design....


----------



## Soya

spudmunkey said:


> Cliff's notes: Mattias is a vocal critic of Jeff Kiesel, and I believe has been banned from the forum. He, too, owns a JB100C.


Ah he finally got banned? Thank fuck.


----------



## spudmunkey

Soya said:


> Ah he finally got banned? Thank fuck.



To be clear, I meant the Kiesel forum. I don't know about here.


----------



## ElRay

AxRookie said:


> Again, I'm a customer and besides one hang-up I experienced none of that and as for the guitar and the few very small flaws in the setup of the guitar, the guitar I got is stellar in every way and I couldn't be happier with it! ...


Right, and if you're willing to ignore and/or make excuses for the poor customer support, the bravado, the misogyny, the insults in-lieu-of (ILO) admission of error, the public denigration of customers ILO admission of error, the abuse of "Option 50" ILO admission of error, the brigading by Kiesel Fanbois and are happy with the face-eating-leopards having not eaten your face (yet), then go ahead a buy a Kiesel.

Claiming other sole/tiny-builders that bit off more than they could chew have done the same, is dishonest.

It's that same tunnel-vision, cherry-picking, false equivalence, the face-eating-leopards will never eat my face tribalism that got Cadet Bonespurs McTinyhands elected.


----------



## ElRay

Jonathan20022 said:


> ... If I'm going car shopping, and Chevrolet is reportedly having issues with reliability. I'm not going to chance a purchase to see if I have a different experience because they provide a vehicle at some kind of "value" and a paint job I want it in. ...


This is the root of the problem. People still make the purchases and people will defend to the death that their decision was the best choice, still a great choice, better than the other options, no worse than the other choices, despite reality. That's why the US has tRump and he still has a 42.6% approval rating.


----------



## mbardu

ElRay said:


> Right, and if you're willing to ignore and/or make excuses for the poor customer support, the bravado, the misogyny, the insults in-lieu-of (ILO) admission of error, the public denigration of customers ILO admission of error, the abuse of "Option 50" ILO admission of error, the brigading by Kiesel Fanbois and are happy with the face-eating-leopards having not eaten your face (yet), then go ahead a buy a Kiesel.
> 
> Claiming other sole/tiny-builders that bit off more than they could chew have done the same, is dishonest.
> 
> It's that same tunnel-vision, cherry-picking, false equivalence, the face-eating-leopards will never eat my face tribalism that got Cadet Bonespurs McTinyhands elected.



Can we stop exaggerating?
I could make the opposite take that the mob mentality with over the top generalizations, the made up "alternative facts about Kiesel" ("they don't even take returns!", "they will force you in options 50s", "they lowered their quality anyway"), the need for a safe space that ignores arguments they disagree with ("just go away"), the "there's a lot of us so we must be right" thinking, the numerous "I never touched their guitars, but I know Agiles are better! You know it, they know it, everybody knows it!" etc etc have all the hallmarks of the dumb MAGA camp too. Yet I don't think it's useful to bring politics into the discussion.

If you _didn't exaggerate_, then I'd agree with you. There are significant issues with customer service sometimes- everybody agrees with that.
If that's enough for some people to be turned off by the brand, I totally get it and I respect that. I don't personally believe so, but if you believe Ibanez/Fender/Gibson etc (essentially corporate machines) are saints in comparison because we rarely interact with them directly...fair enough. That's a valid choice. If you feel that the probably <1% of issue with Kiesel is too big a risk because of the dozen or so rehashed discussions online (out of 10s of thousands of instruments), even though it's probably one of the lowest in the industry (short of going Suhr, TA or the like), that's fine too. Save twice to 3 times the $$$ and order a Suhr. There's nothing wrong with that.

But that's it IMO. You don't need to make up new stuff, just for the sake of bashing Kiesel. And if people spew lies about things that never happened or make up stuff out of thin air, I'll still correct them. Doesn't mean I agree with the shitty customer service cases. There's just something called "nuance" that many people seem to be lacking.
As for your "brigading", if you read objectively you'll notice that the "brigading", insults and calls to leave do not come from the "side" you are thinking.


----------



## ElRay

mbardu said:


> ... successfully returning probably around 10 or so Carvin or Kiesel guitars (built to my specs) ...


The leopards ate 10% of my face, but were nice about it after the fact? Were any of those nonsensical Option 50 bites?


----------



## mbardu

ElRay said:


> This is the root of the problem. People still make the purchases and people will defend to the death that their decision was the best choice, still a great choice, better than the other options, no worse than the other choices, despite reality. That's why the US has tRump and he still has a 42.6% approval rating.



I guess you didn't bother to see my reply to that flawed example (if you were sincere you'd go back to it), but do you really have to bring the holier-than-thou politics into that discussion? Just look at who's brigading, insulting, making stuff up, ignoring arguments...and you'll see it's not the side you think.


----------



## mbardu

ElRay said:


> The leopards ate 10% of my face, but were nice about it after the fact? Were any of those nonsensical Option 50 bites?



If you're genuinely interested (not sure since you only seem to read the anti-Kiesel stuff), I already answered on that:



mbardu said:


> You can twist everything the way you want to if you're not trying to discuss in good faith.
> 
> Nothing was wrong with any of the guitars I returned. The moss green CT7 was not comfortable for me to play standing up but at least i got to try it to figure that out, the v7 multiscale i returned because after a misunderstanding they finished the guitar in aquaburst instead of aqua, the red contour 66 I decided to get a fixed bridge and another color (my pink one) instead, the gold top CT i returned because the wait for the guitar was so long (it was the first they built with the new piezo and we didn't know how long it would take to get it right) that i had just moved on to other things etc etc etc. All of them were well built and played well. A few of them i know for a fact are adored by their new owners.
> 
> The fact i could try those guitars at my specs with zero risk and return them no questions asked is a pretty strong argument in my book. Who else allows you to do that? How is that a bad thing?
> 
> If you're trying to sneakily find some sort of "gotcha" as in "haha look at that dude, he got 10 guitars with issues out of 100", then certainly not. As mentioned before, out of 100+ (most of all I got second hand, by far), I only had one I would even qualify as "problematic" (but again could have been fixed easily) and maybe a few (maybe 4/5) that were good, but not great (didn't sound great, had slight finish issues etc), and none of those were among the guitars I ordered new.
> 
> Edit: actually that's not true now that I think about it. One of those guitars that "didn't sound great" was actually my Blue Vader 6 that I did order to my specs. It came with one of the first batch of Lithium pickups and I hated them. I wanted to return for a refund, but they offered to replace them with M22s instead, free of charge, and that solved the problem. Talk about terrible customer service.



PS: no, I did not return an option 50, and I would not have expected to do so. However:

When I ordered my option 50 contour 66 with custom finish, they were very clear that custom finishes were non returnable options, and I had to confirm that I understood the implications (no free 10 day trial, no return because I just didn't like the looks). Luckily, I looove the looks. But had this not been the case and had I got a top that didn't look like I pictured, I wouldn't have whined about it. I did however actually have a small warranty issue with the guitar a couple of years down the road with the electronics, that they fixed no problems even though the guitar was an option 50. Their warranty still applies.
On my multiscale 7 with "non-returnable" option, because of a misunderstanding, the guitar ended up with an aquaburst finish instead of aqua. Because they took responsibility for the mistake, they took it back for a refund and gave me 0 hassle. So if it's their fault and they build something wrong, they will accept a return.


----------



## ElRay

mbardu said:


> Can we stop exaggerating? ...


What exaggeration?

Jeff has insulted customers via public videos
Jeff has made misogynistic comments via public videos
Jeff has played the "Tough Guy" game via public videos
Jeff has played the "Everybody is picking on me" game via public videos
Kiesel has sent-out guitars, with trivially obvious flaws, 100% unrelated to "Option 50" finishes and refused to accept returns because the order contained an "Option 50" request
Kiesel has grudgingly offered rebuilds, after public shaming, as long as the customer pays for shipping, etc.
Kiesel has added requests that do not affect potential resale listed as "Option 50" that Carvin did not consider "Option 50"
Customers have been banned from the Kiesel forums for being adamant they get the promised support
Kiesel Fanbois brag that the 10 returns they did went smoothly as defense against the folks that reported problems, completely ignorant of the fact that 10 returns is a problem in itself and nothing to brag about
Just because you choose to ignore the "Dear Leader is Great!", "Let's ignore/dismiss reality" and/or irrationally-justify-the-problems brigading that occurs on other public forums whenever a customer publicly complains about poor customer service, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
When somebody wades into a "Never again" thread and spews "Dear Leader is Great!" nonsense, ignoring/dismissing reality, irrationally justifying poor customer service AND GETS CORRECTED BY FACTS, LOGIC AND REALITY, that is not brigading.
You're a prime example of the use-putdowns-instead-of-facts, head-in-the-sand, the-leopards-won't-eat-my-face, false-equivalence-spewing, Jeff's-done-some-nasty-stuff-but-I'll-ignore-it-because-I-hope-to-get-something-I-want, everybody-is-against-me-I-must-be-right Kiesel Fanboi that leads to the brigading. In other words, you're "*no worse*" than the typical t-Rump sycophant, chose to remain just as arrogantly/willfully ignorant, and communication with you is just as effective. Welcome to the tRump, flat-earther, anti-vaxer, anti-evolutionist, anti-anthropogenic-climate-change club.

<PLONK>


----------



## mbardu

ElRay said:


> What exaggeration?
> 
> Jeff has insulted customers via public videos
> Jeff has made misogynistic comments via public videos
> Jeff has played the "Tough Guy" game via public videos
> Jeff has played the "Everybody is picking on me" game via public videos
> Kiesel has sent-out guitars, with trivially obvious flaws, 100% unrelated to "Option 50" finishes and refused to accept returns because the order contained an "Option 50" request
> Kiesel has grudgingly offered rebuilds, after public shaming, as long as the customer pays for shipping, etc.
> Kiesel has added requests that do not affect potential resale listed as "Option 50" that Carvin did not consider "Option 50"
> Customers have been banned from the Kiesel forums for being adamant they get the promised support
> Kiesel Fanbois brag that the 10 returns they did went smoothly as defense against the folks that reported problems, completely ignorant of the fact that 10 returns is a problem in itself and nothing to brag about
> Just because you choose to ignore the "Dear Leader is Great!", "Let's ignore/dismiss reality" and/or irrationally-justify-the-problems brigading that occurs on other public forums whenever a customer publicly complains about poor customer service, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
> When somebody wades into a "Never again" thread and spews "Dear Leader is Great!" nonsense, ignoring/dismissing reality, irrationally justifying poor customer service AND GETS CORRECTED BY FACTS, LOGIC AND REALITY, that is not brigading.
> <PLONK>



Your whole premise of "make excuses for the poor customer support" is flawed from the start because nobody did that. This is a strawman that everyone keeps piling on (like you do) instead of answering on any factual argument. And again, in the latest response, you rehash a bunch of things that everybody agrees on (essentially amounting to Jeff sucks). I never defended Jeff, and would not do that considering that his attitude straight up sucks in many of those cases.

As for the rest, pick your argument. Either you say that I'm the one brigading, or that I'm the one being brigaded because somehow I deserve it...can't be both. At the end of the day, at least I am polite, answer only on facts, actually read and make replies to people's arguments instead of ignoring when I don't have an answer, and keep the discussion on topic instead of trying to win points by flawed comparisons with politics. That's already more than you or the mob have even tried to do. Make of that what you will.

If you have any actual sincere point that's not "DAE shitty Jeff and customer service" that everyone agrees on or "OMG Kiesel fanboi shill", I'm all ears. I just doubt it considering every single point in your reply is either a strawman attack for something I never said, or something I have already replied to (the "10 returns omg" in the very reply just above your post yet you no longer have a point so let's just decide to ignore it)...but then...crickets. Either you didn't bother to read, or you're just disingenuous on purpose. If you're sincere about "FACTS, LOGIC AND REALITY", let's just pick a single example. Actually read my reply on the 10 returns, and try to answer why that's a bad thing. Bet you can't.



ElRay said:


> You're a prime example of the use-putdowns-instead-of-facts, head-in-the-sand, the-leopards-won't-eat-my-face, false-equivalence-spewing, Jeff's-done-some-nasty-stuff-but-I'll-ignore-it-because-I-hope-to-get-something-I-want, everybody-is-against-me-I-must-be-right Kiesel Fanboi that leads to the brigading. In other words, you're "*no worse*" than the typical t-Rump sycophant, chose to remain just as arrogantly/willfully ignorant, and communication with you is just as effective. Welcome to the tRump, flat-earther, anti-vaxer, anti-evolutionist, anti-anthropogenic-climate-change club.



All that because I dare to say "customer service is shitty, yet we don't need to make up additional lies just for the sake of it"? Do you only have personal attacks? Every single point in your laundry list is fake. Who did I put down? Where did I ignore issues with customer service? Where did I ignore Jeff's shitty attitude and imply "Dear Leader is Great!"?

Again, why bring politics into the discussion? For someone who refuses to reply on facts, makes ad-hominem attacks, gaslights and accuses me of things I didn't do, uses strawmen as only arguments...the conversation doesn't put you in the camp you think it does. Funny thing in your attacks on climate change is that many years ago (feels almost a lifetime ago) I actually worked in a group of researchers to enhance models around the effect of CO2 on climate change.


----------



## BigViolin

Do you _really_ care this much?


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> If you have any actual sincere point that's not "DAE shitty Jeff and customer service" that everyone agrees on or "OMG Kiesel fanboi shill", I'm all ears. I just doubt it considering every single point in your reply is either a strawman attack for something I never said, or something I have already replied to (the "10 returns omg" in the very reply just above your post yet you no longer have a point so let's just decide to ignore it)...but then...crickets. Either you didn't bother to read, or you're just disingenuous on purpose. If you're sincere about "FACTS, LOGIC AND REALITY", let's just pick a single example. Actually read my reply on the 10 returns, and try to answer why that's a bad thing. Bet you can't.





mbardu said:


> "they don't even take returns!", "they will force you in options 50s", "they lowered their quality anyway"



Can you find any quotes on here, (Shouldn't be a problem with the abundance of haters ) that said any of these things?

Cause for a guy touting facts and reality, you seem to really be twisting what the opposition is saying to suit your arguments while crying about being misinterpreted yourself


----------



## cip 123

USMarine75 said:


> Well in all fairness Gibson should sue Kiesel and others for stealing their headless guitar design....


Sick Zeus bro, is it your build?


----------



## USMarine75




----------



## Cynicanal

xzacx said:


> While I think this is probably true, it’s still a bit disingenuous to use the return policy as a selling point while mostly showcasing things that wouldn’t be returnable. I remember seeing videos of Jeff constantly pushing those stained ash finishes, which don’t seem to have any real reason to not be returnable other than an excuse to eliminate the policy on a popular option.


yeah man its totally dishonest to try to make yourself look good by showing off cool guitars in flattering lighting in your marketing material PRS should totally never post a picture of a wood library or private stock again because its not what most of their guitars look like!!11one


----------



## oneblackened

On the topic of neck heels... Kiesel's neck through ain't shit, not when this exists:







Anyway, the shilling is really making me laugh. When I went to Kiesel's booth at NAMM 2019, there were models where the transition from oil to paint was so bad there was a visible (and very obvious to the hand) lip. It did not improve the next year in the slightest. The best Kiesels I played were at the fucking KSR booth, which is absolutely mind boggling to me.

Then this year, their big reveal was the Mark Okubo signature. It was set up so poorly it buzzed all the way up the neck. The shit Kiesel lets out of the factory blows my fucking mind. They're competing with Ibanez Prestiges and especially ESP E-IIs at that price point, and they don't compare favorably in terms of quality. I can't recall playing a single E-II _ever_ that had the same kind of random quality blips that I see regularly with Kiesel. Frankly, I can't recall it with Ibanez either. Kiesel makes errors I don't expect on $300 Squiers.

I think my personal favorite, though, is my friend's GP7X that has had the frets unseat regularly from humidity changes.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

oneblackened said:


> On the topic of neck heels... Kiesel's neck through ain't shit, not when this exists:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, the shilling is really making me laugh. When I went to Kiesel's booth at NAMM 2019, there were models where the transition from oil to paint was so bad there was a visible (and very obvious to the hand) lip. It did not improve the next year in the slightest. The best Kiesels I played were at the fucking KSR booth, which is absolutely mind boggling to me.
> 
> Then this year, their big reveal was the Mark Okubo signature. It was set up so poorly it buzzed all the way up the neck. The shit Kiesel lets out of the factory blows my fucking mind. They're competing with Ibanez Prestiges and especially ESP E-IIs at that price point, and they don't compare favorably in terms of quality. I can't recall playing a single E-II _ever_ that had the same kind of random quality blips that I see regularly with Kiesel. Frankly, I can't recall it with Ibanez either. Kiesel makes errors I don't expect on $300 Squiers.
> 
> I think my personal favorite, though, is my friend's GP7X that has had the frets unseat regularly from humidity changes.


Which is weird, because I bought a DC700 used for like 1.3K that didn't have a blemish on it, or any structural flaws I could find for that matter, but yet the "Prestige" I bought for 1.9K was, on the other hand, a legitimate p.o.s..


----------



## ramses

narad said:


> My fetish is being told repeatedly that bad customer service is really good customer service because les pauls have a headstock joint that is prone to breaking. This thread is doing wonders for me.



Rule 38??


----------



## AxRookie

narad said:


> My fetish is being told repeatedly that bad customer service is really good customer service because les pauls have a headstock joint that is prone to breaking. This thread is doing wonders for me.


Who and where does someone keep telling you that??? do you have a link to that???


----------



## AxRookie

ElRay said:


> Right, and if you're willing to ignore and/or make excuses for the poor customer support, the bravado, the misogyny, the insults in-lieu-of (ILO) admission of error, the public denigration of customers ILO admission of error, the abuse of "Option 50" ILO admission of error, the brigading by Kiesel Fanbois and are happy with the face-eating-leopards having not eaten your face (yet), then go ahead a buy a Kiesel.
> 
> Claiming other sole/tiny-builders that bit off more than they could chew have done the same, is dishonest.
> 
> It's that same tunnel-vision, cherry-picking, false equivalence, the face-eating-leopards will never eat my face tribalism that got Cadet Bonespurs McTinyhands elected.


You see there's where you off, I've made no excuses for anything and in fact, I called them out on their own forum over it, and those posts are all still there to this day! and it was two weeks after I first ordered the guitar Mike hung up on me once, that was 5 months before I got my guitar, since the hang-up and apology that came after, and free merch that came after the hang-up, the customer support has been great, Everyone seems to have just skipped over what their customer service did for me a day ago, I emailed Joe Stone at Kiesel customer service asking how to buy another of the volume knobs for my guitar because I knicked one while working on it doing some of my own customizing and without a word, one just showed up yesterday at no charge!!! I thought that was pretty cool!

I think things can change, Isn't that what you would hope for OR are you forever going to hold the bad that one or two people did over their heads in perpetuity?


----------



## AxRookie

oneblackened said:


> On the topic of neck heels... Kiesel's neck through ain't shit, not when this exists:


WOW that is AWESOME!!! How much is that guitar???

For some reason, the neck looks super wide where the neck meets the body or is that just me???


----------



## AxRookie

AxRookie said:


> WOW that is AWESOME!!! How much is that guitar???
> 
> For some reason, the neck looks super wide where the neck meets the body or is that just me???



And I'd like the edges where the carve meets the body to be smoother but that's just me, It's still awesome!


----------



## AxRookie

I have a serious question to those that are pointing to bad customer service (with good reason) when was the most recent example of bad customer service (other than my hang up) and when was the last outburst by Jeff Kiesel?

I really would like to know this...


----------



## cip 123

AxRookie said:


> I have a serious question to those that are pointing to bad customer service (with good reason) when was the most recent example of bad customer service (other than my hang up) and when was the last outburst by Jeff Kiesel?
> 
> I really would like to know this...


I'm sure if someone shouts loud enough we can get another outburst by the end of the week


----------



## mbardu

AxRookie said:


> I have a serious question to those that are pointing to bad customer service (with good reason) when was the most recent example of bad customer service (other than my hang up) and when was the last outburst by Jeff Kiesel?
> 
> I really would like to know this...



The most recent is...maybe about a month ago?

A customer complained very publicly about getting very poorly matched fretboard and neck woods (both roasted maple, but really not the same color _at all_). Jeff Kiesel made a *huge *fuss about it, and attacked the customer about it on live video. Really terrible outburst from him with ridiculous things about being "manly", him flexing on camera etc etc... so bad this time that he even had to give a public semi-heartfelt apology about it. That's what most of the recent complaints are referring to.


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> The most recent is...maybe about a month ago?
> 
> A customer complained very publicly about getting very poorly matched fretboard and neck woods (both roasted maple, but really not the same color _at all_). Jeff Kiesel made a *huge *fuss about it, and attacked the customer about it on live video. Really Terrible outburst from him with ridiculous things about being "manly", him flexing on camera etc etc... so bad this time that he even had to give a public semi-heartfelt apology about it. That's what most of the recent complaints are referring to.


Oh shit! That sounds pretty bad!

I thought I had seen a video but it was longer ago than that, do you have a link to it so I can see myself?


----------



## AxRookie

Nevermind I found it and it was bad alright BUT this video sums up fairly closely my feeling about that video...

​

But I did see KDH's video "Dear Jeff Kiesel" and I left this comment two weeks ago...

"I bought a Kiesel guitar last year and it had issues but they never did to me what they did to that guy, they just sent me a shipping label, there were a few issues I just took care of myself... BUT the way Jeff is talking is not good at all and he is WRONG! He doesn't need a tree to grow darker wood, HE CAN SELECT THE WOOD AND HOW DARK IT IS FROM HIS WEARHOUSE OF WOOD! I don't understand why he's talking such nonsense???"

So I haven't made any excuses for Jeff...​


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Can you find any quotes on here, (Shouldn't be a problem with the abundance of haters ) that said any of these things?
> 
> Cause for a guy touting facts and reality, you seem to really be twisting what the opposition is saying to suit your arguments while crying about being misinterpreted yourself



The part about "they don't even take returns!", "they will force you in options 50s", "they lowered their quality anyway" was only a summary of some examples. I should have added a couple of things like "you're likely to get a lemon" or "you're likely to be insulted" by the way.

So about those quotes....what is your point here? Are you looking for some sort of "gotcha"? Are you trying to say that I made it up and that nobody actually said or meant any of those those things? Because if you're saying that, and nobody said or meant any of those things, it would mean through simple logic and negation that Kiesel is not not taking returns, is not forcing you to take option 50s, they have not lowered their quality, and that you are not likely to get a lemon or to be insulted. If that's the case, then we're in total agreement and we can stop right there! Why didn't you say so earlier  ?

But we all know, this was said. I am not going to quote any particular person besides yourself because (I guess unlike most people here) I hate personal attacks. But for example, on page 164 you have the typical "quality is bad, Agile is better, price is too high" and "you won't be able to return a guitar from them". On page 162 is the "actually even if you are able to return, they will cause you hassle or insult you in the process". On page 161 is the "actually they moved to a different place and are now no longer producing quality". Page 164, after admitting that you had no data to back it up, you yourself came pretending to know for a fact that Kiesel supposedly had poor reliability (with your "Chevrolet" example that you didn't even bother replying to when out of arguments). Then, page 165 is again yourself arguing that you basically have to order an option 50 or else you're just getting a base guitar (mistaking option 50 and non-returnable in the process btw).

All the above are false, and I have no problem saying that those are lies and defending it. Happy to take anyone up on actually discussing *any *of those points. But nobody wants to discuss. For example, I quoted the example of being able to try about 10 different guitars I didn't ultimately keep from them over the years. 2/3 people jumped in right away to say "haha look at how shitty those guitars are, they're being returned" without even reading the explanation. Even after repeating the explanation, the only answers are "haha 10% guitars are shitty wat a stoopid fanboi". This is the most egregious to me because it's a great plus about the brand, and people are playing dumb (or being sincerely dumb?) to take a single sentence out of context to try and get a "haha". Here as well, I'll happily take up anyone in a serious discussion to explain to me how their return policy isn't great and unique in the industry. I am however willing to bet that not a single person will be able to make a compelling argument and will just call me a fanboi instead. Or saying I try to justify their customer service which I have never done. Strawmen, ad-hominems and deflections all around.

On a totally separate note, I also have no issue saying that when their customer service fails, they have been super shitty. Just like Jeff's attitude. And also totally understand if that turns off people 100% from the brand. The bad faith is pretending I'm a fanboi because I'm not taking those totally separate facts as a justification to make up new unrelated lies just to hate.


----------



## Jonathan20022

It is a gotcha, because no one ever said any of the quotes you're "summarizing". Falling apart when I challenge you to trace back a few pages and prove it says just as much.

- "they don't even take returns!"
No one ever argued this, in fact the counter "Well you COULD return your instrument if you order one without any option 50 requests", was something that you and ONLY you brought to the table. Not sure why you've held tooth and nail on that point for 30+ pages, because while that is true Jeff does not offer a painless return when the guitars are received in a fucked up manner or until push comes to shove, both of these statements are true. And you completely made up the narrative that anyone is fighting you on the impossibility of returns.

- "they lowered their quality anyway"
More people have made statements that their guitars were actually great, and I can speak to my experience where my first 5 were fantastic. And the 6th was an utter shit show which prompted my leave and reselling of all my Kiesels in the first place. No one has fought you on Kiesels lowering their quality or being bad instruments. This is another false "summary" that not a single person has raised other than meme comments about cheap imports playing better, which less than 5 people have made comments about.

- "they will force you in option 50s"
No one ever said this, my EXACT comment was that it is disingenuous marketing to advertise option 50's across their groups/instagram/live streams and hide behind it as a way to absolve them of having to deal with problem instruments when the user wants to return them. This is of course, illegal. And this has happened, not only to me but to others. Mismatched roasted guy was being forced into a return + lifetime ban, a rebuild while paying a restock fee on the original instrument, or to suck it up and keep it. All of which are poor resolutions to the problem, these are facts. Not a SINGLE person said you were forced into purchasing Option 50s, this is another completely made up lie by you.

- "you're likely to get a lemon"
No one said this, the problem is repeatedly that if you DO receive a lemon, you are likely to not have a great time with Customer Service if you want any option other than their default assortment IF you order an option 50 spec. 95% of the discussion has been on negative Customer Service experiences.

- "you're likely to be insulted"
No one said this either, but guess what. I was insulted in our direct conversation by Jeff Kiesel when I prompted measures to secure my return, and every person here saw the embarrassing emasculation of a lifetime customer on a live stream. Jeff *has* insulted customers before, and no one has made the statement you're trying to summarize.

You're false flagging this thread, and attempting to crowd it with conversation hoping people like our new friend here to not filter through it's massive catalog of documented shit to make their own minds up on the situation. All of the above points are false, because no one ever fucking said them. You're disingenuously attempting to revise what was said and present it as the unreasonable ensemble of haters on SSO.

Prove me wrong, SSO has a wonderful quote feature and I'm sure with your wealth of free time you can sift through and provide ample examples, which you failed to do when asked earlier today 



> Then, page 165 is again yourself arguing that you basically have to order an option 50 or else you're just getting a base guitar



This is a lie, I never said this, and here is exactly what I said. Is it hard to scroll back, push a button and DIRECTLY quote me? I didn't *"basically" *say what you seem to think I said.



> Your response here doesn't matter, because you tout that you can order a Kiesel exactly how you want it with a risk free return period. But every case so far Jeff has gone on stream or told his "guys" to tell their customer sorry no returns, unless you foot the bill because of reason x/y/z including the option 50.



Also I didn't mistake anything in regards to Option 50, directly from Kiesel's board: http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=432



> There is no list of Option 50 items. Period. And speculating here as to whether Carvin will or will not do a particular feature isn't the way to go about finding the answer. If you're serious, pull out your credit card, and call and ask. Some options vary - you want a V headstock on a 5-string bass? Well, it's been done before, but if it's the "busy season", they may not want to do it again (since it has to be made by hand). If you've seen something that was done, and you want the same thing, they may not want to do it because they found out it was hard, impractical, ugly or whatever when they did it the first time. Call and ask, and trust your salesperson's judgment. If they say something won't work, won't look good, is impractical from a construction perspective, etc, they know what they're talking about.
> 
> Also, it's worth pointing out that practically _all_ Option 50 items negate the 10-day trial. This is one reason these types of options aren't encouraged. On paper, a single pickup CT with a seafoam green back and black quilted front may sound good, but could end up being a wreck - and you're stuck with it, and unhappy - and Carvin wants you to be happy, but they also don't want a bunch of bizarre returns they can't sell. Additionally, most Option 50 items will add 2-4 weeks to the build time, depending on what it is.



Aka, we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument.

Nice policy, what part did I get wrong @mbardu?


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> It is a gotcha, because no one ever said any of the quotes you're "summarizing". Falling apart when I challenge you to trace back a few pages and prove it says just as much.
> 
> - "they don't even take returns!"
> No one ever argued this, in fact the counter "Well you COULD return your instrument if you order one without any option 50 requests", was something that you and ONLY you brought to the table. Not sure why you've held tooth and nail on that point for 30+ pages, because while that is true Jeff does not offer a painless return when the guitars are received in a fucked up manner or until push comes to shove, both of these statements are true. And you completely made up the narrative that anyone is fighting you on the impossibility of returns.
> 
> - "they lowered their quality anyway"
> More people have made statements that their guitars were actually great, and I can speak to my experience where my first 5 were fantastic. And the 6th was an utter shit show which prompted my leave and reselling of all my Kiesels in the first place. No one has fought you on Kiesels lowering their quality or being bad instruments. This is another false "summary" that not a single person has raised other than meme comments about cheap imports playing better, which less than 5 people have made comments about.
> 
> - "they will force you in option 50s"
> No one ever said this, my EXACT comment was that it is disingenuous marketing to advertise option 50's across their groups/instagram/live streams and hide behind it as a way to absolve them of having to deal with problem instruments when the user wants to return them. This is of course, illegal. And this has happened, not only to me but to others. Mismatched roasted guy was being forced into a return + lifetime ban, a rebuild while paying a restock fee on the original instrument, or to suck it up and keep it. All of which are poor resolutions to the problem, these are facts. Not a SINGLE person said you were forced into purchasing Option 50s, this is another completely made up lie by you.
> 
> - "you're likely to get a lemon"
> No one said this, the problem is repeatedly that if you DO receive a lemon, you are likely to not have a great time with Customer Service if you want any option other than their default assortment IF you order an option 50 spec. 95% of the discussion has been on negative Customer Service experiences.
> 
> - "you're likely to be insulted"
> No one said this either, but guess what. I was insulted in our direct conversation by Jeff Kiesel when I prompted measures to secure my return, and every person here saw the embarrassing emasculation of a lifetime customer on a live stream. Jeff *has* insulted customers before, and no one has made the statement you're trying to summarize.



I pointed you to the pages where this was said. And I didn't say that this was said by you if that's your problem. If you want to ignore it, fine by me- then that means that those are not problems with Kiesel, and that's great if we can all agree on that, I'm all for it  !



Jonathan20022 said:


> You're false flagging this thread, and attempting to crowd it with conversation hoping people like our new friend here to not filter through it's massive catalog of documented shit to make their own minds up on the situation. All of the above points are false, because no one ever fucking said them. You're disingenuously attempting to revise what was said and present it as the unreasonable ensemble of haters on SSO.
> 
> Prove me wrong, SSO has a wonderful quote feature and I'm sure with your wealth of free time you can sift through and provide ample examples, which you failed to do when asked earlier today
> 
> 
> 
> This is a lie, I never said this, and here is exactly what I said. Is it hard to scroll back, push a button and DIRECTLY quote me? I didn't *"basically" *say what you seem to think I said.
> 
> 
> 
> Also I didn't mistake anything in regards to Option 50, directly from Kiesel's board: http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=432
> 
> 
> 
> Aka, we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument.
> 
> Nice policy, what part did I get wrong @mbardu?



I'll quote your full paragraphs if you want, instead of only a selective part:



Jonathan20022 said:


> Who orders a base Kiesel anymore? I literally only personally know a single guy who ordered Kiesels with the bare minimum, and the 2nd had a Raw Tone finish which still counts as an Option 50.
> 
> Your response here doesn't matter, because you tout that you can order a Kiesel exactly how you want it with a risk free return period. But every case so far Jeff has gone on stream or told his "guys" to tell their customer sorry no returns, unless you foot the bill because of reason x/y/z including the option 50.
> 
> Option 50 doesn't absolve an imperfect instrument of a return policy, and Kiesel enjoys playing that fear tactic game. Which again, does not hold up in court. You *can *order a base Kiesel, but look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed and try to count how many of those guitars lack an Option 50 that is easily seen.



And this is super dishonest. No-one orders "base" Kiesels because there is no such thing. They are built to your specs. It doesn't mean they are all option 50. Majority are not, even with numerous options. So not only are we making a problem out of a small minority of orders anyway, but you're being dishonest on purpose and then nitpicking. I did take you and the other guy up on the "look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed" btw, literally counted the guitars. Crickets. Noone cares to actually reply on facts. Just spew hate and lies.



Jonathan20022 said:


> we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument



This is the worst lie. This is *egregiously *false. Not only are most options, and the millions of corresponding combinations 100% returnable. But the second part of your sentence *never *happens. They *always *warn you before you order something non-returnable. They will never leave any doubt about that and not accept payment if you don't confirm the specs. Pretending otherwise is absolutely false and just proves you're not honest.

Same thing- I challenged you to reply on a single point about the return policy- nothing. Just pivot. More lies.

PS: You should really check what "option 50" means, because it doesn't mean what you think it means, and it is not the same as "non-returnable". The "roasted maple guy" was not related to option 50 at all. And it was not an issue of return, but an issue of restocking fee. It doesn't add a lot of credibility to what you're saying.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Nah it's not that, because I *know *I didn't say those things, I also *know *no one else said them as you misquoted them. That's why I'm challenging you to provide direct examples, kind of weird that you can go back and note the page the comments are on but can't seem to once again simply quote what you're so adamant was said in the manner you believe they were said. I won't ignore them unless you do, and if you want to address them go capture those comments as I requested for the 3rd time now and prove me wrong.



> And this is super dishonest. No-one orders "base" Kiesels because there is no such things. They are built to your specs. It doesn't mean they are all option 50. Majority are not so we're making a problem out of a huger minority of orders anyway. I took you and the other guy up on the "look at the Kiesel Facebook Feed", literally counted the guitars. Crickets. Noone cares to actually reply on facts. Just spew hate and lies.



A "base" Kiesel refers to one with no Option 50's if that's whats confusing you about my statement, or at least my definition of it. No one is concerned with being held without the option to return said "base" Kiesel. The problem is again with the Option 50 requests, which as I quoted from a Carvin/Kiesel employee,



> practically _all_ Option 50 items negate the 10-day trial



So we agree that the policy, Option 50, means no returns if you need one. This is another instance of you bringing their return policy into the discussion when literally NO ONE asked. Jeff only accepts returns of Option 50 instruments when pushed into a corner, or when outed publicly and told that he's wrong for not making the return a simple process when they fuck their instruments up.

Once again, where did I misinterpret that shit policy?


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Nah it's not that, because I *know *I didn't say those things, I also *know *no one else said them as you misquoted them. That's why I'm challenging you to provide direct examples, kind of weird that you can go back and note the page the comments are on but can't seem to once again simply quote what you're so adamant was said in the manner you believe they were said. I won't ignore them unless you do, and if you want to address them go capture those comments as I requested and prove me wrong for the 3rd time now.
> 
> 
> 
> A "base" Kiesel refers to one with no Option 50's if that's whats confusing you about my statement, or at least my definition of it. No one is concerned with being held without the option to return said "base" Kiesel. The problem is again with the Option 50 requests, which as I quoted from a Carvin/Kiesel employee,
> 
> 
> 
> So we agree that the policy, Option 50, means no returns if you need one. This is another instance of you bringing their return policy into the discussion when literally NO ONE asked. Jeff only accepts returns of Option 50 instruments when pushed into a corner, or when outed publicly and told that he's wrong for not making the return a simple process when they fuck their instruments up.
> 
> Once again, where did I misinterpret that shit policy?



Option 50 is probably 1% of orders, and that's something that most people would never encounter because it means spending time with a specialist on the phone to order something off-menu that you know will not be returnable. If you now mean "base" Kiesel refers to one with no Option 50's (that's now become your own made up distinction, but fair enough), then great- it means 99% of Kiesel are now "base" and no issue in your world- which would invalidate most of your speech.

It is however not the same thing as "non-returnable". For example, rawtone is not an option 50 by definition.
If you have issues in general with "non-returnable" which is a larger group, then as mentioned, your statements above are a total lie. "We have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do" is a lie. A large*, *majority of options and option combinations are returnable. I took the dare to go and count on FB, as well as their in-stock, and yep- indeed a large majority is perfectly returnable. Also- they 100% know what is and isn't returnable and will let you know when you order, 100% of the time. For those options that are _not _returnable, they are mentioned that way in the builder, will be confirmed with you by the sales guy on the phone, as well as on the invoice you have to check before being even able to pay.



Jonathan20022 said:


> we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument



Again, I can't get over how much this single quote is such a lie, I don't even need anything else or any other quote to see you either don't know what you're talking about, or are just being dishonest on purpose. Everything single thing is false there.

Now I will address your other point about support, even though I doubt your honesty based on the above. Kiesel will absolutely take a return if something is seriously wrong with the guitar. Or will fix it under warranty. Even if you have a non-returnable option. Even if it's an option 50. I've had it happen to me (non-returnable option returned on my Vm7 because of a misunderstanding on the finish, small warranty fix on my option 50 contour 66) . But you would know all that if you had bothered to read instead of just attacking with plain lies.
Will they sometimes, in rare cases (again, they produce 4000 instruments a year and have been at it for decades, and we're talking about the same few years later) have the wrong customer service attitude? Will they sometimes make a huge fuss about it and have Jeff K make a fool of himself about it? Absolutely. Nobody denied that. And that sucks.

PS: One last time, I'm happy to quote you since you're attacking me. I don't want to get into personal finger-pointing otherwise. But that should be no issue though. If you seriously believe that nobody said what I pointed out on those pages, then again, I'm more than fine with it, because then it means that there are very little to no issues with Kiesel besides at times shitty customer service and owner. Which was my point all along.


----------



## spudmunkey

Nvrmnd


----------



## AxRookie

Jonathan20022 said:


> It is a gotcha, because no one ever said any of the quotes you're "summarizing". Falling apart when I challenge you to trace back a few pages and prove it says just as much.
> 
> - "they don't even take returns!"
> No one ever argued this, in fact the counter "Well you COULD return your instrument if you order one without any option 50 requests", was something that you and ONLY you brought to the table. Not sure why you've held tooth and nail on that point for 30+ pages, because while that is true Jeff does not offer a painless return when the guitars are received in a fucked up manner or until push comes to shove, both of these statements are true. And you completely made up the narrative that anyone is fighting you on the impossibility of returns.
> 
> - "they lowered their quality anyway"
> More people have made statements that their guitars were actually great, and I can speak to my experience where my first 5 were fantastic. And the 6th was an utter shit show which prompted my leave and reselling of all my Kiesels in the first place. No one has fought you on Kiesels lowering their quality or being bad instruments. This is another false "summary" that not a single person has raised other than meme comments about cheap imports playing better, which less than 5 people have made comments about.
> 
> - "they will force you in option 50s"
> No one ever said this, my EXACT comment was that it is disingenuous marketing to advertise option 50's across their groups/instagram/live streams and hide behind it as a way to absolve them of having to deal with problem instruments when the user wants to return them. This is of course, illegal. And this has happened, not only to me but to others. Mismatched roasted guy was being forced into a return + lifetime ban, a rebuild while paying a restock fee on the original instrument, or to suck it up and keep it. All of which are poor resolutions to the problem, these are facts. Not a SINGLE person said you were forced into purchasing Option 50s, this is another completely made up lie by you.
> 
> - "you're likely to get a lemon"
> No one said this, the problem is repeatedly that if you DO receive a lemon, you are likely to not have a great time with Customer Service if you want any option other than their default assortment IF you order an option 50 spec. 95% of the discussion has been on negative Customer Service experiences.
> 
> - "you're likely to be insulted"
> No one said this either, but guess what. I was insulted in our direct conversation by Jeff Kiesel when I prompted measures to secure my return, and every person here saw the embarrassing emasculation of a lifetime customer on a live stream. Jeff *has* insulted customers before, and no one has made the statement you're trying to summarize.
> 
> You're false flagging this thread, and attempting to crowd it with conversation hoping people like our new friend here to not filter through it's massive catalog of documented shit to make their own minds up on the situation. All of the above points are false, because no one ever fucking said them. You're disingenuously attempting to revise what was said and present it as the unreasonable ensemble of haters on SSO.
> 
> Prove me wrong, SSO has a wonderful quote feature and I'm sure with your wealth of free time you can sift through and provide ample examples, which you failed to do when asked earlier today
> 
> 
> 
> This is a lie, I never said this, and here is exactly what I said. Is it hard to scroll back, push a button and DIRECTLY quote me? I didn't *"basically" *say what you seem to think I said.
> 
> 
> 
> Also I didn't mistake anything in regards to Option 50, directly from Kiesel's board: http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=432
> 
> 
> 
> Aka, we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument.
> 
> Nice policy, what part did I get wrong @mbardu?


Oh man, look at you getting all the quotes you asked for and then saying no one said them!!! So you just brush off the quotes you asked for, Man you're some piece of work, There's no talking to someone who just keeps moving the goal post and denying everything you asked for!


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Option 50 is probably 1% of orders, and that's something that most people would never encounter because it means spending time with a specialist on the phone to order something off-menu that you know will not be returnable.



Jeff's estimated that it's closer to 10% or more, and would include every build from all runs, any raw tone finish (except for the JH6 and I think the MO) buckeye burl, poplar burl, or pale moon ebony, plus any instrument with any of Jeff's hand-done finishes, all sparkle, crackle and splatter finishes, bridge-only pickup builds, customized control locations, all ziricote, cocobolo builds, or other off-menu woods like empress wood, pink myrtle, wenge, etc. I might be wrong on this, but I think also typically any build with higher grade woods (including K series), or builds that come from the "pick your top" sessions. All custom color, all non-standard backside colors (like a red-painted back with a black top).


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Jeff's estimated that it's closer to 10% or more, and would include every build from all runs, any raw tone finish (except for the JH6 and I think the MO) buckeye burl, poplar burl, or pale moon ebony, plus any instrument with any of Jeff's hand-done finishes, all sparkle, crackle and splatter finishes, bridge-only pickup builds, customized control locations, all ziricote, cocobolo builds, etc.



Thanks Spud!

I'm pretty sure poplar, buckeye, raw tone at least have their option codes and are right there in the builder. Runs as well, I have invoice for 2 run builds and they have no option 50s. I'd happily be corrected though.

No matter, option 50s being say 1% out of say 20% of non-returnable builds (I may need to refresh my numbers), or nowadays being 10% out of those 20% is not a meaningful difference here. Non returnable remains that 20% minority of the orders- and the buyers are always informed when something is not returnable. This delusion of "You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument" is a total lie.


----------



## spudmunkey

The trick is that despite the "official" definition of Option 50 being just something without a code so they use "50", I've given up on fighting the trend to use it to simply mean any non-returnable option, whether it has a code or not. I've even heard Jeff casually use the term to mean that, too, in conversation.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> The trick is that despite the "official" definition of Option 50 being just something without a code so they use "50", I've given up on fighting the the trend to use it to simply mean any non-returnable option, whether it has a code or not. I've even heard Jeff casually use the term to mean that, too, in conversation.



Fair enough. In that case it means I was even being too generous. It's not 20% of builds like I imagined that are non-returnable, it's actually about half that.
I think we can all agree then that 90% of returnable builds is a large majority; in fact larger than I thought.


----------



## mbardu

AxRookie said:


> Oh man, look at you getting all the quotes you asked for and then saying no one said them!!! So you just brush off the quotes you asked for, Man you're some piece of work, There's no talking to someone who just keeps moving the goal post and denying everything you asked for!



I'm OK with that at the end of the day.
If we sincerely believe that nobody said any of those things, then maybe I just dreamt it all. And that means we all agree that Kiesel customer service seriously sucks at times (together with Jeff's attitude)- but besides that, and in a large majority of the cases, they don't have those issues and are actually pretty good, with some pretty unique advantages too.

Which was my point all along.


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> I'm OK with that at the end of the day.
> If we sincerely believe that nobody said any of those things, then maybe I just dreamt it all. And that means we all agree that Kiesel customer service seriously sucks at times (together with Jeff's attitude)- but besides that, and in a large majority of the cases, they don't have those issues and are actually pretty good, with some pretty unique advantages too.
> 
> Which was my point all along.


Exactly! That's all that's being said, customer service def has dropped the ball at times, and Jeff has lost his mind on occasion, and I would add that their final setup work has been lacking at times as it was for my guitar, all of which they offered to take care of on their dime in my case.

But show me a guitar builder that has never had any issues and I'll eat my hat so to speak...

BUT I will say that even knowing everything I know now and knowing in advance the issues I was going to run into I still would have bought a guitar from them to get the guitar I have now! 

That's a no bull shit fact!


----------



## Cynicanal

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one ever said this, my EXACT comment was that it is disingenuous marketing to advertise option 50's across their groups/instagram/live streams and hide behind it as a way to absolve them of having to deal with problem instruments when the user wants to return them. This is of course, illegal.


Showing off expensive/rare one-off pieces that are nicer than the normal pieces in advertisement isn't illegal, WTF. It's not illegal for Dodge to show off all kinds of crazy concept cars that you can't buy in their marketing material, and it's not illegal for Kiesel to show off guitars that are outside of what they normally build in their marketing material.

The reason you can't return option 50 builds should be obvious to anyone who isn't intentionally playing stupid -- to prevent people from speccing out "white elephants" and then trying to return them. Basically, "if you go away from the list of things we know work, you're on you're own." Frankly, I don't think that's an unreasonable position -- the only sane alternative is "ok, all option 50s are off the menu forever."


----------



## mbardu

Cynicanal said:


> Showing off expensive/rare one-off pieces that are nicer than the normal pieces in advertisement isn't illegal, WTF. It's not illegal for Dodge to show off all kinds of crazy concept cars that you can't buy in their marketing material, and it's not illegal for Kiesel to show off guitars that are outside of what they normally build in their marketing material.
> 
> The reason you can't return option 50 builds should be obvious to anyone who isn't intentionally playing stupid -- to prevent people from speccing out "white elephants" and then trying to return them. Basically, "if you go away from the list of things we know work, you're on you're own." Frankly, I don't think that's an unreasonable position -- the only sane alternative is "ok, all option 50s are off the menu forever."



The funny part is that they used to offer _way less_ - almost nothing in the way of off-menu options.

Things like ziricote, cocobolo, one-off finishes etc. They said no for years. And at that time, people complained..."why don't they also offer this and that, It's not so difficult! I'd take it, even if it voids the no-risk return policy. They should really offer more, they suck". And turns out it's true. About 10% of people are OK to forgo the no 10-day trial option, and within those 10%, the majority is happy. To those guys, they're not even saying "you're on your own" btw. They still give the same warranty and support - which I've experienced first hand.

But now that they do offer more, it's things like "why do they show off some options that are non-returnable sometimes? It's not fair! They suck...".
Really can't please everyone.

PS: yes, they sometimes have very bad and visible customer service lapses (the few we know of are well documented)- and sometimes this intersects with non-returnable builds, but not always. Roasted maple is not a non-returnable option for instance. The common denominator to the service issues seem to be more a few particular people on their bad days (passing that on on to the client sucks), and Jeff's mood and attitude- that rather than returnable vs non returnable.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Option 50 is probably 1% of orders, and that's something that most people would never encounter because it means spending time with a specialist on the phone to order something off-menu that you know will not be returnable. If you now mean "base" Kiesel refers to one with no Option 50's (that's now become your own made up distinction, but fair enough), then great- it means 99% of Kiesel are now "base" and no issue in your world- which would invalidate most of your speech.
> 
> It is however not the same thing as "non-returnable". For example, rawtone is not an option 50 by definition.
> If you have issues in general with "non-returnable" which is a larger group, then as mentioned, your statements above are a total lie. "We have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do" is a lie. A large*, *majority of options and option combinations are returnable. I took the dare to go and count on FB, as well as their in-stock, and yep- indeed a large majority is perfectly returnable. Also- they 100% know what is and isn't returnable and will let you know when you order, 100% of the time. For those options that are _not _returnable, they are mentioned that way in the builder, will be confirmed with you by the sales guy on the phone, as well as on the invoice you have to check before being even able to pay.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I can't get over how much this single quote is such a lie, I don't even need anything else or any other quote to see you either don't know what you're talking about, or are just being dishonest on purpose. Everything single thing is false there.
> 
> Now I will address your other point about support, even though I doubt your honesty based on the above. Kiesel will absolutely take a return if something is seriously wrong with the guitar. Or will fix it under warranty. Even if you have a non-returnable option. Even if it's an option 50. I've had it happen to me (non-returnable option returned on my Vm7 because of a misunderstanding on the finish, small warranty fix on my option 50 contour 66) . But you would know all that if you had bothered to read instead of just attacking with plain lies.
> Will they sometimes, in rare cases (again, they produce 4000 instruments a year and have been at it for decades, and we're talking about the same few years later) have the wrong customer service attitude? Will they sometimes make a huge fuss about it and have Jeff K make a fool of himself about it? Absolutely. Nobody denied that. And that sucks.
> 
> PS: One last time, I'm happy to quote you since you're attacking me. I don't want to get into personal finger-pointing otherwise. But that should be no issue though. If you seriously believe that nobody said what I pointed out on those pages, then again, I'm more than fine with it, because then it means that there are very little to no issues with Kiesel besides at times shitty customer service and owner. Which was my point all along.



 Holy fucking shit. No quotes to back up your original falsified "summary" statements still btw 



> Also, it's worth pointing out that practically _all_ Option 50 items negate the 10-day trial. This is one reason these types of options aren't encouraged. On paper, a single pickup CT with a seafoam green back and black quilted front may sound good, but could end up being a wreck - and you're stuck with it, and unhappy - and Carvin wants you to be happy, but they also don't want a bunch of bizarre returns they can't sell.



"practically _all_ Option 50 items negate the 10-day trial."
"On paper, a (very specific custom option) may sound good, but could end up being a wreck - and you're stuck with it, and unhappy"

Option 50's are non returnable, that's a cold hard fact. I don't care how you spin it, and how I could order a guitar without that option and have my return policy. That doesn't matter when a guitar has problems or build issues, I love that you also assume Kiesel reads off of this script and that they have to give you the Opt50 spiel during the ordering process, 3/6 orders contained Option 50 features, and I was only told once by the rep I worked with that my build was non-returnable. So you can quit it with this narrative that you're told throughout the process 100% of the time cause it's not true. And I don't blame the guys, I wanted the specs I wanted and I already knew it was non-returnable, because I do research when I make purchases.



> "why do they show off some options that are non-returnable sometimes? It's not fair! They suck..."



I never said that, there's a reason you're avoiding the quote feature and putting words in my mouth. Pretty pathetic behavior.



spudmunkey said:


> Nvrmnd



I actually caught your comment pre-edit, I had to go eat dinner and hang out with my roommate so I didn't get a chance to reply while it was still up. The age of the policy has no bearing if it's still an active policy they enforce today.  But I understand your point, if it had changed at all between now and the last 13 years I'd feel more inclined to give Kiesel the benefit of the doubt.



AxRookie said:


> Oh man, look at you getting all the quotes you asked for and then saying no one said them!!! So you just brush off the quotes you asked for, Man you're some piece of work, There's no talking to someone who just keeps moving the goal post and denying everything you asked for!



I'm not sure why you're responding to me when I haven't spoken to you at all, you gave me your obscene fake news spiel and I laughed my ass off then logged off for the evening.

In terms of "quotes", and moving goal posts. I asked mbardu 3 separate times to provide forum QUOTES, aka you go to the post click the nice little quote button and reference the original wording 1:1. Not reword the original comments and say "go look on page xxx for this comment" and putting words in people's mouths, if you just want to sideline the conversation then remove yourself from it because you're not adding anything to it.



Cynicanal said:


> Showing off expensive/rare one-off pieces that are nicer than the normal pieces in advertisement isn't illegal, WTF. It's not illegal for Dodge to show off all kinds of crazy concept cars that you can't buy in their marketing material, and it's not illegal for Kiesel to show off guitars that are outside of what they normally build in their marketing material.
> 
> The reason you can't return option 50 builds should be obvious to anyone who isn't intentionally playing stupid -- to prevent people from speccing out "white elephants" and then trying to return them. Basically, "if you go away from the list of things we know work, you're on you're own." Frankly, I don't think that's an unreasonable position -- the only sane alternative is "ok, all option 50s are off the menu forever."



No one said that it's illegal to do that, go look up and define disingenuous.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Holy fucking shit. No quotes to back up your original falsified "summary" statements still btw
> 
> Option 50's are non returnable, that's a cold hard fact. I don't care how you spin it, and how I could order a guitar without that option and have my return policy. That doesn't matter when a guitar has problems or build issues, I love that you also assume Kiesel reads off of this script and that they have to give you the Opt50 spiel during the ordering process, 3/6 orders contained Option 50 features, and I was only told once by the rep I worked with that my build was non-returnable. So you can quit it with this narrative that you're told throughout the process 100% of the time cause it's not true. And I don't blame the guys, I wanted the specs I wanted and I already knew it was non-returnable, because I do research when I make purchases.



Most of option 50s are what they call "non-returnable" yes. There are additional non-option 50s that are also "non-returnable", yes. Your point?
An important point that you fail to acknowledge is that even for something that they call "non-returnable", they will still give you the full warranty, or they will actually _still _take back the instrument if they made a mistake in the build. Both happened to me.
IIRC, you had issues with them, they treated you very poorly, and I actually believe _you were too kind_ to them, and you actually _chose _not to return something to them when they messed up. The whole story sucks, and TBH, I would definitely not recommend the type of builds you were going for to most people, because they have messed up in the past on some complex builds. Hence why I always recommend the_ literal millions_ of possible returnable builds instead.

On the "nobody told me it would be non returnable", I called BS though. I have never experienced any doubt when placing a non-returnable orders. But I won't make that a "he said she said", I would dare anyone to try and spec a build with them (they'll do it for free if you call or email them), and before actually going through with it (and before paying), even if your sales person didn't repeat it to you 3 times, even if they did and you didn't hear them, you'll get an invoice that clearly says "no 10 day trial on this particular instrument" in all caps. Plus you say yourself that you were 100% aware of the non returnable fact, so are you saying you were misled? In the few stories involving "non returnable" that we have read here and TGP, the owner was also 100% aware they had picked something non returnable.
This new "they'll mislead you into something non-returnable and take your money" is absolutely made up, and it's exactly the kind of thing I refer to when I say "we don't need to make up new lies just because sometimes their customer service sucks a lot".



Jonathan20022 said:


> In terms of "quotes", and moving goal posts. I asked mbardu 3 separate times to provide forum QUOTES, aka you go to the post click the nice little quote button and reference the original wording 1:1. Not reword the original comments and say "go look on page xxx for this comment" and putting words in people's mouths, if you just want to sideline the conversation then remove yourself from it because you're not adding anything to it.



I have told you where to look (and it took a loooong time tbh, having multiple pages opened in the same browser totally messes the edits). You'll also see that I replied to all the people in question, who then decided to no longer comment when out of arguments. But again, you are ignoring what I showed you so whatever, if you are saying that noone thought or said those things, then we're in perfect agreement in the first place. If you are adamant that nobody said or meant "they don't accept returns" or "they'll make a big fuss and insult you", or "their quality is bad nowadays", or "they're not reliable" (lmao as if you yourself didn't say that one) or "oh nooo, it sucks that they allowed you to try a bunch of high quality guitars to your specs at no cost or risk to see if they fit you, they're so bad" (this one still makes no sense to me) etc etc... then my point has been made. If noone said those, then it turns out Kiesel is actually pretty good- with the main downside being the terrible customer service and owner attitude in the few cases we keep rehashing. That's a fair assessment in my book.

As I mentioned, unlike you I really don't want to raise a _personal _beef against anyone with specific finger pointing. Especially as there are already so many people piling against me as supposedly a fanboi or shill without any actual argument. Since you however *do *want to make it personal against me, I *did *quote *you *in full though. And since you fail to acknowledge even that, I'll do it again



Jonathan20022 said:


> we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument



Again, this is exaggeration wrapped in BS wrapped in pure lies. No way around it.
Everything in that quote is false.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Again, this is exaggeration wrapped in BS wrapped in pure lies. No way around it.
> Everything in that quote is false.



The turducken of deception.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> The turducken of deception.



So what is deception wrapped in exaggeration wrapped in BS wrapped in pure lies ?


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Most of option 50s are what they call "non-returnable" yes. There are additional non-option 50s that are also "not-returnable", yes. Your point?
> An important point that you fail to knowledge though is that even for something that they call "non-returnable", they will still give you the full warranty, or they will actually _still _take back the instrument if they made a mistake in the build. Both happened to me.
> IIRC, you had issues with them, they treated you very poorly, and I actually believe _you were too kind_ to them, and you actually _chose _not to return something to them when they messed up. The whole story sucks, and TBH, I would definitely not recommend the type of builds you were going for to most people, because they have messed up in the past on some complex builds. Hence why I always recommend the_ literal millions_ of possible returnable builds instead.
> 
> On the "nobody told me it would be non returnable", I called BS though. I have never experienced it, but I won't make that a "he said she said", I would dare anyone to try and spec a build with them (they'll do it for free if you call or email them), and before paying, you'll get an invoice that clearly says "no 10 day trial on this particular instrument" in all caps. Plus you say yourself that you were 100% aware of the non returnable fact, so are you saying you were misled?



No I'm not saying I was misled, how can I be misled if I understand the scope of the instrument I'm ordering in the first place? I'm ascribing your narrative to a perfect world that doesn't exist, the sales people may not mention these things and the buyer might not catch it on their invoice.

Like I said, the process isn't a scripted automated conversation. You talk to someone and they walk you through the specs, those conversations can get very passionate as you discuss which hardware combo would look best on your specs. Or which woods suit the tone you're going after.



> I have told you where to look- and again if you are saying that noone thought or said those things, then we're in perfect agreement in the first place. If nobody said "they don't accept returns" or "they'll make a big fuss and insult you", or "their quality is bad nowadays", or "they're not reliable" (lmao as if you yourself didn't say that one) etc etc... then my point has been made, and Kiesel is actually pretty good- with the main downside being the terrible customer service and owner attitude in the few cases we keep rehashing. That's a fair assessment in my book.



It sure is a fair assessment, your final sentences that is. However no one said any of your quoted statements, those are 100% fabricated and changed from what each commented originally said. Fairly easy to remedy, but you have an aversion to quoting despite the abundance of tools and opportunities to do so.



> As I mentioned, unlike you I really don't want to raise a _personal _beef against anyone with specific finger pointing. Especially as there are already so many people piling against me as supposedly a fanboi or shill without any actual argument. Since you however *do *want to make it personal against me, I *did *quote you in full though. I mean, I'll do it again



I'm not sure where you feel like I'm getting personal with you and insulting you directly. 

The only remotely insulting comment towards you was that I think that you are carpet blaming the entire forum for being trolls. And you feign ignorance when you get questioned over your shilling of high value cheap Kiesels. 

Link to the post  
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-166#post-5142844

I didn't really have a personal beef with you, I do take issue with your level of misquoting though.



> Again, this is exaggeration wrapped in BS wrapped in pure lies. No way around it.
> Everything in that quote is false.



So it's a lie that builds containing Option 50 specs are non-returnable? In Carvin/Kiesel's words "*all*" Option 50's negate your 10 day trial period. Interesting.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> So it's a lie that builds containing Option 50 specs are non-returnable? In Carvin/Kiesel's words "*all*" Option 50's negate your 10 day trial period. Interesting.



Nope. most option 50s are indeed non returnable. Like I already typed a dozen times- including in the very post you quoted but apparently haven't read. Like, nobody has denied that, ever.

Looks like you're not particularly paying attention for someone _begging _to be quoted. I'll do it a third time for posterity. The lies are below :


Jonathan20022 said:


> we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period, but practically *ALL* options in fact do. You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument



_"we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period"_ is a lie. In the builder, all non-returnable options are marked as non-returnable. if you call them, they will tell you what is returnable or non returnable. The invoice they'll send you to verify your build before paying will have an all caps "no 10 day trial on this instrument" if it's non returnable. There is no doubt or grey area. You are not going to order something and have to doubt whether it's returnable or not, you will always know. I stand by the above, there has been no evidence or example of someone being misled into something non returnable without their knowledge, and if you don't want to make it a "he said"/"she said", everyone is free to try and get a quote with Kiesel
_"practically *ALL* options in fact do"_. This is a blatant lie. Anyone can go on the online builder of any guitars right now and see that the large majority of options are 100% returnable. Just went on a random builder page, and out of more than 150 options (options, not combinations- combinations are probably in the millions), there were *5* non returnable ones. Is 5 out of 150 "practically all"?
_"You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument"_, same as lie #1 but now apparently they're also stealing your money before you're able to do anything about it? LMAO


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> Nope. most option 50s are indeed non returnable. Like I already typed a dozen times- including in the very post you quoted but apparently haven't read. Like, nobody has denied that, ever.
> 
> Looks like you're not particularly paying attention for someone _begging _to be quoted. I'll do it a third time for posterity. The lies are below :
> 
> 
> _"we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period"_ is a lie. In the builder, all non-returnable options are marked as non-returnable. if you call them, they will tell you what is returnable or non returnable. The invoice they'll send you to verify your build before paying will have an all caps "no 10 day trial on this instrument" if it's non returnable. There is no doubt or grey area. You are not going to order something and have to doubt whether it's returnable or not, you will always know. I stand by the above, there has been no evidence or example of someone being misled into something non returnable without their knowledge, and if you don't want to make it a "he said"/"she said", everyone is free to try and get a quote with Kiesel
> _"practically *ALL* options in fact do"_. This is a blatant lie. Anyone can go on the online builder of any guitars right now and see that the large majority of options are 100% returnable. Just went on a random builder page, and out of more than 150 options (options, not combinations- combinations are probably in the millions), there were *5* non returnable ones. Is 5 out of 150 "practically all"?
> _"You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument"_, same as lie #1 but now apparently they're also stealing your money before you're able to do anything about it? LMAO


Now watch him just brush off all the quotes like they were never said, That's what he does...

He's just one of those guys that can't admit when they're wrong, I've seen it before...


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Nope. most option 50s are indeed non returnable. Like I already typed a dozen times- including in the very post you quoted but apparently haven't read. Like nobody has denied ever.



Great! Now I feel like we're getting somewhere.



> Everything in that quote is false.



You're contradicting yourself here, no one denied it ever? Yet everything in my statement is false, except for the parts that are true?

This could be just some misunderstanding, but surely you can see where this falls apart, no?



> Looks like you're not particularly paying attention for someone begging to be quoted. I'll do it a third time. The lies are below :
> 
> 
> "we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period" is a lie. In the builder, all non-returnable options are marked as non-returnable. if you call them, they will tell you what is returnable or non returnable. There is no doubt or grey area. You are not going to order something and have to doubt whether it's returnable or not, you can always know. I stand by the above, there has been no evidence or example of someone being misled into something non returnable without their knowledge, and if you don't want to make it a "he said"/"she said", everyone is free to try and get a quote with Kiesel
> "practically *ALL* options in fact do". This is a blatant lie. Anyone can go on the online builder of any guitars right now and see that the large majority of options are 100% returnable.
> "You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument", same as lie #1 but now apparently they're also stealing your money before you're able to do anything about it. LMAO



1. Not sure where you're throwing this point of being misled, this is Carvin's response in their Option 50 FAQ.



> There is no list of Option 50 items. Period. And speculating here as to whether Carvin will or will not do a particular feature isn't the way to go about finding the answer. If you're serious, pull out your credit card, and call and ask.



You find out what is and isn't an Option 50, when you call and ask. This is in line with my statement,

_"we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period"_

They do NOT have an official list of all available option 50 at the ready, they make that call when you call with intent to buy. This is in their word, and from my experience is exactly what they do when someone requests an off the menu option.

2. This is a very easy one, I've never addressed options built into the builder that do not fall under the "Option 50" category. I've been talking about Option 50 specs since the beginning of this entire discussion. And once again, in Kiesel's own words.



> Also, it's worth pointing out that practically _all_ Option 50 items negate the 10-day trial.



Considering I've only spoken about Option 50, I'm going to turn this back on you and say that no part of this was a lie and matches the company's official statement in relation to Option 50. Which once again, was the *ONLY *thing I've discussed thus far. You are the only person bringing non-opt 50 specs into the discussion in the first place.

3. I'm a bigger guy, and I can recognize that the following was an exaggeration

"and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument"

*However*, 

"You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out"

I'll refer back to the quote in point #1, that they will discuss wether they will entertain an off menu option "If you're *serious*, pull out your *credit card*, and *call *and *ask*".


I'll take that part of #3 was an exaggeration, but uh..



> Everything in that quote is false.



Is quite the stretch when you break the entire statement down isn't it?


----------



## Jonathan20022

AxRookie said:


> Now watch him just brush off all the quotes like they were never said, That's what he does...



Not quite 

Back to the peanut gallery my friend!


----------



## AxRookie

lol... Mr. Brush Off...

That sounds almost Russian? lol


----------



## narad

AxRookie said:


> He's just one of those guys that can't admit when they're wrong, I've seen it before...


----------



## Jonathan20022

AxRookie said:


> lol... Mr. Brush Off...
> 
> That sounds almost Russian? lol



It kind of does!  is this part of the conspiracy starter kit?

What's Kiesel #2 gonna look my dude?


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> He's just one of those guys that can't admit when they're wrong, I've seen it before...



Hey, he kinda tried recently!
Kinda...


----------



## RiksRiks

mbardu said:


> Nope. *most* option 50s are indeed non returnable. Like I already typed a dozen times- including in the very post you quoted but apparently haven't read. Like, nobody has denied that, ever.



Why do you say most? my understanding, albeit maybe wrong, was that ALL option 50s were non returnable. What are some option 50s that can be returnable?


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Great! Now I feel like we're getting somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> You're contradicting yourself here, no one denied it ever? Yet everything in my statement is false, except for the parts that are true?
> 
> This could be just some misunderstanding, but surely you can see where this falls apart, no?
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Not sure where you're throwing this point of being misled, this is Carvin's response in their Option 50 FAQ.
> 
> 
> 
> You find out what is and isn't an Option 50, when you call and ask. This is in line with my statement,
> 
> _"we have no official ownership of what does and doesn't invalidate your 10 day trial period"_
> 
> They do NOT have an official list of all available option 50 at the ready, they make that call when you call with intent to buy. This is in their word, and from my experience is exactly what they do when someone requests an off the menu option.
> 
> 2. This is a very easy one, I've never addressed options built into the builder that do not fall under the "Option 50" category. I've been talking about Option 50 specs since the beginning of this entire discussion. And once again, in Kiesel's own words.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering I've only spoken about Option 50, I'm going to turn this back on you and say that no part of this was a lie and matches the company's official statement in relation to Option 50. Which once again, was the *ONLY *thing I've discussed thus far. You are the only person bringing non-opt 50 specs into the discussion in the first place.
> 
> 3. I'm a bigger guy, and I can recognize that the following was an exaggeration
> 
> "and we'll find out by the time it's too late if you can or cannot return your instrument"
> 
> *However*,
> 
> "You won't know until you order, so put up the money and we'll find out"
> 
> I'll refer back to the quote in point #1, that they will discuss wether they will entertain an off menu option "If you're *serious*, pull out your *credit card*, and *call *and *ask*".
> 
> 
> I'll take that part of #3 was an exaggeration, but uh..
> 
> 
> 
> Is quite the stretch when you break the entire statement down isn't it?



I could ask many questions because there's a lot to unpack here and again it's moving the goalposts.

But I'll make it simple...let's just assume your single point is "option 50s are non-returnable"...what then?
I feel like everybody knows that most options 50s are non returnable... We also know that option 50s are a small portion of the Kiesel-ordering population (they are not in the builder and you have to specifically inquire about them) and that people who order them know they are getting something non-returnable.

So I fail to see where you are going with that.
My sole point in the last few pages has been that Kiesel still builds high quality guitars, which offer you options to be customized millions of different ways and still keep a pretty great and unique return policy if you want to try new options or combinations (no other builder will allow that)... You don't even have to know that option 50s exist, there is already so much variety. And now you seem to agree with all of that yet keep saying I'm..._wrong_?

At least the people who said "They won't allow you to return, or they'll make a big fuss about it" or "their quality is shitty now, they changed their process and now are no better than cheap imports" were kind of trying to make a point that was clear (even though I believe they were wrong and you believe they don't exist)...

What are _you _trying to achieve? Because if it's strictly "option 50s are supposed to be non-returnable..." I really fail to see where you're going with it. That's known. Again, there has been no instance of someone being misled into something non-returnable that i know of, Kiesel _has _taken back guitars that were supposed to be non-returnable when it was a mistake on their end (again, please correct me if I'm misremembering, but even though I believe you chose not to return yours, I had no issue returning mine, just like some others in the same situation), and they will fix issues under warranty even on something non returnable. That sounds...pretty reasonable to me.

Of course, their customer service has sucked from time to time (we certainly have seen and read and saw a few notable examples out of thousands of instruments), returnable or not...but here as well, everybody knows that. I'm puzzled with what you're trying to prove, really.


----------



## mbardu

RiksRiks said:


> Why do you say most? my understanding, albeit maybe wrong, was that ALL option 50s were non returnable. What are some option 50s that can be returnable?



Initially in the "Carvin" era something silly like having the volume knob chrome and the tone knob black would not have had an option code- yet they would have done it for you. Not having a particular code for that silly option, your invoice would show "Option 50: chrome vol/black tone". You would still have been able to return the guitar in that scenario.

They were very rare cases though, and although I say "most", saying "all" is fine for all intents and purposes. Just remember that there are a number of options that do have codes now (so not technically option 50), that are still non-returnable (it will be clear when you check in the online builder with the "Non-Returnable" mention or call them direct).

Edit: Here's how it looks online




The only finish option you can see that is non-returnable is Crackle, yet it's not technically an "option 50" in the sense that it will show up as "CF" on your invoice, not "50".


----------



## prlgmnr

Is there any call for a filibustering specialist anywhere?


----------



## Jonathan20022

What then?

They have documented instances of not offering a seamless return and citing Option 50 as the reason for this.

The Roasted Neck mishap once again resulted in the following options offered.

1) Man up and keep the guitar
2) Return it for a rebuild and pay an extra restocking fee
3) Return it for a refund, and you're banned for life

My situation 100% warranted a rebuild, and I was never offered that or a return until I pushed for one after the 2nd botched repair. And option 50 was referenced as part of the reason they opted to not offer these options and instead went for the warranty repair.

Option 50 has been used to hold back people from pursuing a return/rebuild of an instrument. This is a shitty practice, and when I threatened to open a case with my bank and perform a chargeback I was told to ship back the guitar *on my dime *and that I was not allowed to order an instrument again. Not that it fucking mattered, $60 to get my full refund back and I don't have to deal with them again? Sign me up.

Funny thing is I went to their booth a few months after and I saw my old guitar on display  Didn't go into the booth, but hopefully they disclosed all those issues unless they refurbished it.



> At least the people who said "They won't allow you to return, or they'll make a big fuss about it" or "their quality is shitty now, they changed their process and now are no better than cheap imports" were kind of trying to make a point that was clear (even though I believe they were wrong and you believe they don't exist)...



Over the last few days? My point is to debunk your misquoting of what people say because you have this habit of modifying statements and then making SSO look like a den full of blind haters.

It's not my fault if 3 - 5 people in this thread are trolling, I and several others have spoken about objective truths in relation to the brand but apparently we get bundled with trolls because generalizations, am I right?

And I think you're remembering things improperly in regards to my situation. Jeff omitted wood choices I paid an upcharge for, as well as my finish choice and decided to pin it on me and try to get me to pay for him to add the finish I *paid *for as an extra charge after I paid for both builds up front.

I wasn't offered a rebuild because my wood choices were not on my guitar, I was not offered a refund and a cancellation of my build. I was told by the owner of the business, that I have to now pay an extra upcharge because the CEO forgot to read the spec sheet and build it as the guitar was ordered.

Nevermind the complete incompetence of their tech Albert who left dings and impressions on the neck and body of the guitar when he was supposed to perform a repair. He was supposed to level and crown the frets, then sent the guitar back with damage on it. The K Series, one of the guitars offered by them to have the MOST attention to detail out of their line of guitars.

I requested a refund after all that, and you know exactly what happened.

They may build good guitars, but if we're going to pretend that Jeff didn't try to box me into that guitar then I'm not sure what to tell you. I was 6 Kiesels deep at the point, and Jeff sees no issue burning bridges.


----------



## Cynicanal

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one said that it's illegal to do that





Also Jonathan20022 said:


> This is of course, illegal


Short-term memory loss?


----------



## USMarine75




----------



## xzacx

Cynicanal said:


> The reason you can't return option 50 builds should be obvious to anyone who isn't intentionally playing stupid -- to prevent people from speccing out "white elephants" and then trying to return them.



OK so what’s the reason for roasted necks and raw tone finishes? What is “white elephant” about those specs? They’re regularly marketed options. It’s really not obvious, other than to limit returns. And miss me with trying to differentiate “option 50” and just plain old “non-returnable” since we all know they’re used interchangeably.


----------



## cip 123

3f6b2789-2a2a-4b7e-9d00-92b334341e2a



__ cip 123
__ May 31, 2020


----------



## narad

Cynicanal said:


> Short-term memory loss?



He was talking about (presumably) Kiesel not allowing the customer to return a guitar with obvious faults. There's just basic consumer protection that covers that, even if Kiesel tries to portray it as "Sorry, Op 50, nothing we can do". It wasn't about showing off things on instagram lol


----------



## laxu

xzacx said:


> OK so what’s the reason for roasted necks and raw tone finishes? What is “white elephant” about those specs? They’re regularly marketed options. It’s really not obvious, other than to limit returns. And miss me with trying to differentiate “option 50” and just plain old “non-returnable” since we all know they’re used interchangeably.



Raw tone finishes would be more prone to damage so I can see them being a non-returnable option as they don't want to deal with case by case inspection of finish damage. Roasted necks not so much but I guess they want to avoid the "it's not the right hue" stuff.

Shipping damage or manufacturing defects are still a legit reason to be able to return a guitar no matter how many non-returnable options are on it.


----------



## xzacx

laxu said:


> Raw tone finishes would be more prone to damage so I can see them being a non-returnable option as they don't want to deal with case by case inspection of finish damage. Roasted necks not so much but I guess they want to avoid the "it's not the right hue" stuff.
> 
> Shipping damage or manufacturing defects are still a legit reason to be able to return a guitar no matter how many non-returnable options are on it.



If you damage any of their finishes, wouldn’t that void any return anyway? (The quality of a finish that can’t hold up to a 10-day trial period is probably another issue, if that’s the argument.) And as far as the “not the right hue” stuff, aren’t figured tops generally returnable? Seems just as open to “not enough figuring” or the finish ending up darker or lighter than someone wanted. It just comes across as a clear attempt to limit the same return policy they have to use as one of their main selling points.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Cynicanal said:


> Short-term memory loss?



He used the word once in the statement, gotem! 



> No one ever said this, my EXACT comment was that it is disingenuous marketing to advertise option 50's across their groups/instagram/live streams *and hide behind it as a way to absolve them of having to deal with problem instruments when the user wants to return them. This is of course, illegal.*



Nuance is clearly lost on you, the level of reading comprehension I'm dealing with is pretty low if that's what you took out of it


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

AxRookie said:


> Nevermind I found it and it was bad alright BUT this video sums up fairly closely my feeling about that video...
> 
> ​
> 
> But I did see KDH's video "Dear Jeff Kiesel" and I left this comment two weeks ago...
> 
> "I bought a Kiesel guitar last year and it had issues but they never did to me what they did to that guy, they just sent me a shipping label, there were a few issues I just took care of myself... BUT the way Jeff is talking is not good at all and he is WRONG! He doesn't need a tree to grow darker wood, HE CAN SELECT THE WOOD AND HOW DARK IT IS FROM HIS WEARHOUSE OF WOOD! I don't understand why he's talking such nonsense???"
> 
> So I haven't made any excuses for Jeff...​




Lol funnily enough, I am connected to Ray through a Kiesel AM8 Koa top he bought off me!


----------



## oneblackened

AxRookie said:


> WOW that is AWESOME!!! How much is that guitar???
> 
> For some reason, the neck looks super wide where the neck meets the body or is that just me???


Spec one out yourself. https://eqguitars.com/


----------



## mbardu

Let's get one thing out of the way: their customer service can be shitty. That happens. Is it frequent? No, let's be real- we talk about the same few out of the last 5 years / 20,000 guitars. Is it specific to non-returnable stuff? Nope. Does that part suck? Yes. Am I a fanboi ignoring those? Nope.

Now, there really is fixation on this "option 50" / "non returnable stuff" by most folks here so let's talk about it...
First, we should realize it's a small minority of orders. But even there, there is still a lot of misconception going around. For example, plain roasted maple is not a non-returnable option. Mixing the two things together means that the mob complainers have no idea what they are talking about. I don't know if we mix those things on purpose to build a bigger reason to hate, or whether it's just ignorance- but still doesn't make it right.
As for "Kiesel not allowing the customer to return a guitar with obvious faults", this is not true. In terms of support, for anything actually problematic with the guitar, they have a better warranty than most builders and *will *fix guitars. Can it be a hassle to find the right person to talk to, and maybe have to deal with a couple of back-and-forth shipments to fix something? For sure, there's no miracle. Sometimes compounded with customer service issues mentioned above.
Return-wise, for anything cosmetic that you're not happy with, yep, they might not be happy to take a return for it. For example if the custom finish you ordered doesn't look like you imagined, they will tell you no. But if the truss rod is frozen, or the guitar can't intonate, or it's missing a fret, or they build H-H instead of HSS as you ordered, or the wrong finish...they will take it back. If the frets have sprouted a bit in transit or a side dot is wonky, yeah they might not be happy to take it back. There are a lot of cases in between too. I should say that on some borderline cases, they did throw hissy fits, but most of the times, still went with what the customer wanted ultimately. But most custom builders out there will not even take *any *return for *any *reason, and some have way more egregious issues than the Kiesels we're talking about so if we only shit on Kiesel for that, it's just double standards.

Wouldn't I like to be able to order anything, even non-returnable things, and yet still be able to return no questions asked if I changed my mind? Duh... But nobody, absolutely nobody allows that in the industry, and Kiesel allows way more than any other company.

And for that, I don't need to even talk about option 50. People act like you have to order option 50, otherwise you can't really customize your guitar, and that's not true. From the words of a few people now out of other arguments, option 50 is rare. It's not even in the builder and you have to call and know what you're talking about. How is that a widespread risk, then? I took people's challenge and counted on Facebook, and looked at guitars in stock, and counted options in the builder. Actually in good faith- unlike the haters who just spout generalities like "_but you can't even get a base Kiesel nowadays_" without any basis. This whole argument is a lie. Most people who order won't end up with something non returnable because the large majority of possibilities are absolutely returnable, no questions asked. Returnable for any reason, even if you spec a guitar just to try. And that's what I always recommend to folks. There are so many soooo many options, that _nobody _has to order something non returnable. And you will not be misled into something non returnable against your will, that's just made up.

Which other builder allows even close to that? If you order something returnable, then by definition you can return it, 0 hassle, 0 issue. I don't get the fantasy of "yeah but Jeff will insult you" because Jeff is not ever involved in that process. It's business as usual for Carvin/Kiesel for decades to allow for clients to try and return stuff, even if it's "just because" (otherwise there's no way to try their guitars) and they're setup to allow that without hassle to the client. Jeff did make a fool of himself on a handful of cases yes- but being generous I challenge anyone to find even a dozen of those -again, out of 20,000 guitars, if you count let's say the 5 years under the new brand. And those are not correlated to returnable or not. Plain roasted maple is returnable for example in the example we all remember. They're just correlated to a bug in customer service or Jeff K going off the rails somehow.
And again, if that's enough to turn you off from the brand and imagine others are better and perfect, fair enough. But no point in making up lies just to feel better about your choice.

PS: It doesn't matter what they decide is returnable or not as long as they make it 100% clear- and they do. I do suspect a lot of those things are just "the most expensive options are not-returnable because they will be harder to resell, just because they are more expensive". Or maybe some because they are less familiar. But it doesn't matter what I suspect, it's their call. And it's still a very small minority of both theoretical possibilities and actual orders, unlike what people imply.


----------



## oneblackened

mbardu said:


> If the frets have sprouted a bit in transit or a side dot is wonky, yeah they might not be happy to take it back.


 But they should be. A reputable custom guitar builder should care enough about their product - and their reputation - that they would fix that stuff, or at least pay for a tech to do it. Shit, climate related shifts _aren't even covered under warranty_. Again, I'll bring up my friend with his GP7X with a board that moves so much that the frets come unseated. Kiesel would not fix that for free. 


mbardu said:


> People act like you have to order option 50, otherwise you can't really customize your guitar, and that's not true.


 No, but Kiesel also has a ton of super common options that count as option 50s. Those "raw tone" finishes are Op50s, but there's really no reason they should be. It's just a different paint option and not one that would be a reasonable non-returnable option (like, say photo matching). Doing a neck pickup delete is an option 50, which is silly. They have the CNC routines for that on hand, and there's really not much reason you shouldn't be able to pick this as a standard option.


----------



## mbardu

oneblackened said:


> But they should be. A reputable custom guitar builder should care enough about their product - and their reputation - that they would fix that stuff, or at least pay for a tech to do it.



I could tell you "just send it back to them and they will fix it", but you would reply that no, it's unfair, they should be perfect from the factory, and control the humidity conditions during travel etc etc. The funny thing is that when there is a topic here with an Ibanez Prestige coming in with horrible fret sprout, the board is like "oh it's no big deal", "why do you complain", "happens to everyone, even the best, you can easily fix it yourself".

The double standards are laughable.



oneblackened said:


> No, but Kiesel also has a ton of super common options that count as option 50s. Those "raw tone" finishes are Op50s, but there's really no reason they should be. It's just a different paint option and not one that would be a reasonable non-returnable option (like, say photo matching). Doing a neck pickup delete is an option 50, which is silly. They have the CNC routines for that on hand, and there's really not much reason you shouldn't be able to pick this as a standard option.



It doesn't matter though. It's their choice, and they'll never force you to order something non returnable. I also replied on the "super common" part and made an effort to check 3 sources on that, which is incidentally 3 more than the people who have that argument but don't bother to back it up.
They offer zillions of options and combinations that you can try at your whim and return no questions asked. And 90% of what they produce falls in that category. Who offers even close to that?
Maybe they want to limit some of the returns on things that they think will be more difficult to resell if the owner changes his mind? I don't know, but in the case of Kiesel that's maybe 10% of what they build, whereas every other builder out there would just say no _100%_ of the time to a return if you change your mind.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> He was talking about (presumably) Kiesel not allowing the customer to return a guitar with obvious faults. There's just basic consumer protection that covers that, even if Kiesel tries to portray it as "Sorry, Op 50, nothing we can do". It wasn't about showing off things on instagram lol



And that's fine. I'm pretty sure Kiesel will allow you to return something where they obviously messed up though. Way more easily than most other custom builder by the way. Happened to me and others- just that nobody talks about things going well.
The issue is just in the definition of "obvious faults". If it's missing a fret, yeah they'll take it back. If a side dot is not aligned perfect or the finish is not like you imagined, maybe not.
Regardless, don't want any risk at all, don't order non-returnable. It's still millions of possibilities and the large majority of their builds.


----------



## oneblackened

mbardu said:


> I could tell you "just send it back to them and they will fix it", but you would reply that no, it's unfair, they should be perfect from the factory, and control the humidity conditions during travel etc etc. The funny thing is that when there is a topic here with an Ibanez Prestige coming in with horrible fret sprout, the board is like "oh it's no big deal", "why do you complain", "happens to everyone, even the best, you can easily fix it yourself".
> 
> The double standards are laughable.


Yeah, if they'll fix it, good. That's what you should do, as like, a base standard.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> What then?
> 
> They have documented instances of not offering a seamless return and citing Option 50 as the reason for this.
> 
> The Roasted Neck mishap once again resulted in the following options offered.
> 
> 1) Man up and keep the guitar
> 2) Return it for a rebuild and pay an extra restocking fee
> 3) Return it for a refund, and you're banned for life



Can we stop mixing up things that are not related at all?
Plain roasted maple is not a non-returnable option. It just comes with a restocking fee. It's said right there in the builder and has always said it. The buyer of that one particular very poorly matched piece could 100% have returned the guitar from the start. He just felt the restocking fee shouldn't apply to him. So Kiesel told him essentially (in a very cavalier way), fine, but if you want to breach that contract between us (you were aware of the restocking fee), then we don't want to do business with you anymore.
Do I agree with them? No, it could have been an easy customer service fix and good PR and instead they threw a huge fit. But we don't need to misrepresent things either.
Those 3 options didn't appear out of thin air.



Jonathan20022 said:


> My situation 100% warranted a rebuild, and I was never offered that or a return until I pushed for one after the 2nd botched repair. And option 50 was referenced as part of the reason they opted to not offer these options and instead went for the warranty repair.
> 
> Option 50 has been used to hold back people from pursuing a return/rebuild of an instrument. This is a shitty practice, and when I threatened to open a case with my bank and perform a chargeback I was told to ship back the guitar *on my dime *and that I was not allowed to order an instrument again. Not that it fucking mattered, $60 to get my full refund back and I don't have to deal with them again? Sign me up.
> 
> Funny thing is I went to their booth a few months after and I saw my old guitar on display  Didn't go into the booth, but hopefully they disclosed all those issues unless they refurbished it.
> 
> 
> 
> Over the last few days? My point is to debunk your misquoting of what people say because you have this habit of modifying statements and then making SSO look like a den full of blind haters.
> 
> It's not my fault if 3 - 5 people in this thread are trolling, I and several others have spoken about objective truths in relation to the brand but apparently we get bundled with trolls because generalizations, am I right?
> 
> And I think you're remembering things improperly in regards to my situation. Jeff omitted wood choices I paid an upcharge for, as well as my finish choice and decided to pin it on me and try to get me to pay for him to add the finish I *paid *for as an extra charge after I paid for both builds up front.
> 
> I wasn't offered a rebuild because my wood choices were not on my guitar, I was not offered a refund and a cancellation of my build. I was told by the owner of the business, that I have to now pay an extra upcharge because the CEO forgot to read the spec sheet and build it as the guitar was ordered.
> 
> Nevermind the complete incompetence of their tech Albert who left dings and impressions on the neck and body of the guitar when he was supposed to perform a repair. He was supposed to level and crown the frets, then sent the guitar back with damage on it. The K Series, one of the guitars offered by them to have the MOST attention to detail out of their line of guitars.
> 
> I requested a refund after all that, and you know exactly what happened.
> 
> They may build good guitars, but if we're going to pretend that Jeff didn't try to box me into that guitar then I'm not sure what to tell you. I was 6 Kiesels deep at the point, and Jeff sees no issue burning bridges.



I think I understand better where you're coming from. Your personal situation (which was far faaar from a standard build, and even far from the large majority of things that are called non-returnable) did suck big time. They did not treat you correctly, and as I mentioned before, I sympathize with you, and actually think you were too patient with them through Jeff's BS. Not sure why you _chose _not to return when you could, but no matter, there were no excuses for Jeff in that situation and it was not your fault as the client. I am a not denying that, and in fact don't recommend super custom build like yours to buyers. It's just no Kiesel's forte. You'll see I always recommend people go through one of the millions of possible combinations instead if they are risk averse _at all_.

So maybe just realize it's maybe not you I'm replying to? You initially denied that what I described even existed (all the other lies and imagined complaints about Kiesel that I am denouncing, yet keep popping up every other page), now you're walking that back and saying it's only a few "trolls". Up to you to characterize that however you like. But if there are trolls or haters or others spewing out lies, I'm free to correct them and will continue to do so. Doesn't mean it diminishes your experience and sorry if you took it that way!


----------



## mbardu

oneblackened said:


> Yeah, if they'll fix it, good. That's what you should do, as like, a base standard.



I've had them fix some small electronics issue a few yars down the road on one of my options 50, they never refused service because it was a non-returnable guitar. They stand behind their product.


----------



## AxRookie

Jonathan20022 said:


> What then?


If you weren't sure what came after you should have asked before you finalized your order, they give you more then enough time to ask questions before you finalize your order, after that point you don't have many options...


----------



## Jeff

I’ve had five Carvins over the last 15 years. Their customer service is awful. The guitars ranged from perfect but lifeless to decent but mild to severe flaws. 
The Kiesel White Knight SS.org Division won’t like it, but that’s my experience.
The more recent Kiesels I’ve played have definitely been better, but according to people that own those guitars, their service still sucks.


----------



## Cynicanal

xzacx said:


> OK so what’s the reason for roasted necks and raw tone finishes? What is “white elephant” about those specs? They’re regularly marketed options. It’s really not obvious, other than to limit returns. And miss me with trying to differentiate “option 50” and just plain old “non-returnable” since we all know they’re used interchangeably.


Roasted necks aren't non-returnable, don't know where you got that one from.

In the case of raw tone, according to Jeff, it's because the finish wears so easily -- if you play a lot, you could well have visible wear on it long before 10 days. IMO, this makes it also a _stupid_ finish for a guitar, and more evidence that you shouldn't order something they're not willing to take back.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> I’ve had five Carvins over the last 15 years. Their customer service is awful. The guitars ranged from perfect but lifeless to decent but mild to severe flaws.
> The Kiesel White Knight SS.org Division won’t like it, but that’s my experience.
> The more recent Kiesels I’ve played have definitely been better, but according to people that own those guitars, their service still sucks.



I mean...I imagine you're referring to me as a "white knight", but why wouldn't I "like" your post? We all agree that their customer service can suck, and you even said that the guitars are getting better. TBH, getting better over time is kind of a feat as the guitars of the Carvin era were already pretty great.

Now you didn't particularly like them it seems, even though you actually found some perfect ones (your words not mine, I won't comment on lifeless...a lot of people attribute that quality to Strandberg, Aristides or Mayo...yet nobody shits on those brands)- and that's fair. Nobody has to like everything.

I personally think they do some great things, that indeed go from decent which can have some flaws (rarely structural flaws though, their CNC and process are on point) to terrific instruments on the level of Suhr or TA at half the price. So our opinions may not align 100%.

But nobody has to take my word for it over yours. The amazing thing if you live in the US is that you can just pick up a customized guitar to your liking (as long as you avoid a very small number of non-returnable options- again, something like 5 options out of 150 are non returnable), and just try it. No one will give you any hassle if you decide it's not for you, nobody will insult you if you get one of the "good but not great, maybe has a flaw" ones and decide to return it.


----------



## spudmunkey

The idea for the raw tone is an alternative for just tung oil finish. It offers a 'tiny' bit of protection, and gives people the tone they want from a thin finish (hencethe name), with two aesthetic side-effects: you can see/feel the texture if the wood grain, and unlike tung oil, they can put it over paints/stains.

People bring it up time and time again as an example of how Kiesel is less forgiving about returnable options than Carvin was because there were so few things that couldn't be returnes, but in reality, it's an ADDITIONAL option they only make available for people who really really want it, and are sure they dont need a trial period. The bottom line is, if they didnt make it non-returnable, they likely wouldn't offer it at all. It's availbke for those who really want it.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Buying a custom guitar should be great experience. Customer service is one of the major factors affecting the overall feeling about the whole process. I wouldn't want to be treated like nobody by the company I deal with. Never.


----------



## mbardu

Cynicanal said:


> Roasted necks aren't non-returnable, don't know where you got that one from.



I got that one from reality. I mean I'm not the one making stuff up here. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the lies are not on the side you think. Plain roasted maple, like in the build that caused the latest drama, like the one used on 99% of "roasted" builds is absolutely returnable. But don't take my word for it. Call them to ask! Or just check the builder.




_Some rare 500$ _figured roasted necks, that are probably on only a tiny proportion of builds are non-returnable (birdseye/flamed at least), and I suspect that's because they don't want to have to resell something that's a 500$ option that few people would be interested in. But again, this is not the case that caused the recent online drama, so there's no need to make things up.

They even removed the restocking fee on plain roasted maple since the latest debacle by the way.



Cynicanal said:


> In the case of raw tone, according to Jeff, it's because the finish wears so easily -- if you play a lot, you could well have visible wear on it long before 10 days. IMO, this makes it also a _stupid_ finish for a guitar, and more evidence that you shouldn't order something they're not willing to take back.



I agree, if you have any aversion to risk at all, don't order something non-returnable. It's still millions of combinations out of the large majority of options.

Now, up to you to think that rawtone is a stupid finish or not for a guitar. It's a totally separate discussion. Nobody is forced to buy a rawtone guitar, and other finishes such as tung oil or satin will also polish or fade over time. Yet they're great finishes too, and when they show wear and patina, it's smooth, regular, and still protects the instrument. Want something that will look the same for _decades_, get the poly that they offer.
I'd argue that some other finishes like the weird poly that Ibanez uses on most of their prestiges is waaaaay more stupid because it will just dry up and peel/crack to show the raw unprotected wood after only a few years ...or even if you just look at it wrong for that matter.... Or the nitro that Gibson uses that will not work with guitar stands, discolor for anything and turn to glue in your hands... Aren't those the actually stupid things? Seriously the shit that other companies get away with in comparison to Kiesel...


----------



## WYLD STALLYNS

Wolfhorsky said:


> Buying a custom guitar should be great experience. Customer service is one of the major factors affecting the overall feeling about the whole process. I wouldn't want to be treated like nobody by the company I deal with. Never.


That’s true. If the Custom experience is anything BUT fully pleasure able to the buyer [not the builder, because some builds are hell], something isn’t right and you should definitely reconsider if its not too late. If it is too late, maybe talk about partial refunds? In that case though, they should let you keep the faulty gear if you have to pay for it....does that make sense?


----------



## Wolfhorsky

WYLD STALLYNS said:


> That’s true. If the Custom experience is anything BUT fully pleasure able to the buyer [not the builder, because some builds are hell], something isn’t right and you should definitely reconsider if its not too late. If it is too late, maybe talk about partial refunds? In that case though, they should let you keep the faulty gear if you have to pay for it....does that make sense?


That's why I avoid Kiesel, even tho I wanted to order the Vader some time ago. I greatly prefer dealing with Skervesen. Great guys, very helpful. And they fixed every problem that occurred (shrunken fretboard with rough fret ends - even after 1,5 year of ownership).


----------



## Dayn

As someone from a country with objectively better consumer protection laws, I'll give my opinion - the majority of defence of Kiesel is defending literally illegal conduct. "Option 50" voiding the voluntary return-if-you-don't-like-it policy? Fair game. Delivering something with defects, not fixing issues, and refusing a refund due to "Option 50", or charging a restocking fee? Illegal. Hence, as much as I'd like to buy overseas (and had considered Carvin and Kiesel in the past), it's too much of a hassle to enforce my rights.

In regards to customer service, unfortunately, being a cunt is not illegal. It's no less excusable, though.


----------



## spudmunkey

I've said it a few times, but I do wish they rolled back restrictions on non-returnable options, and just increased restocking costs for many of those (what are now) non-returnable options, like sparkle, crackle, buckeye, etc. 

Like...if someone just doesnt bond with a guitar with an expensive roasted flamed maple neck, and wants to return if, then Kiesel is stuck with a guitar that will be *really* hard to sell later in the in-stock. By charging a re-srocking fee on it, it reduces the number of people who are just trying expensive options on impulse buy whims, it reduces Kiesel's own liability exposure, and then when they do go to resell it, can offer it at a steeper discounted rate, so it's more likely to sell, since the GIS is meant to be discounted anyway. And then, they get the bonus of appearing to be more lenient with return restrictions.

Win, win, win, & win.

They will still need to have some restrictions in things, though, to protect themselves. Like...if someone wants a horrible ugly spec like that KRG middle with KRO burst, neck-only pickup, left-handed guitat, they should be allowed to make it, then not be on-the-hook just because someone ordered an impulse custom-made item.


----------



## mbardu

Dayn said:


> As someone from a country with objectively better consumer protection laws, I'll give my opinion - the majority of defence of Kiesel is defending literally illegal conduct. "Option 50" voiding the voluntary return-if-you-don't-like-it policy? Fair game. Delivering something with defects, not fixing issues, and refusing a refund due to "Option 50", or charging a restocking fee? Illegal. Hence, as much as I'd like to buy overseas (and had considered Carvin and Kiesel in the past), it's too much of a hassle to enforce my rights.
> 
> In regards to customer service, unfortunately, being a cunt is not illegal. It's no less excusable, though.



One thing that people miss about those consumer protection laws is they typically have severe limitations for anything one-off, bespoke or customized. And I'm sure everyone can understand the logic. Restocking fee, if you're referring to the one that roasted maple used to have falls under the same category as the "Option 50" voiding the voluntary return. If it's something agreed upon with the customer, I doubt it's illegal, or even unethical or unusual for that matters. It's the same as non refundable deposits that many businesses have in place.
Do you know what is the "restocking fee" for most custom builders that are not Kiesel, so are not the subject of the same hate? 100$ like roasted maple, 20% of the build value? Nope, it's 100% fee because they will simply not take your instrument back for a refund if you change your mind.

Now agreed 100% that if they fail to stand behind an order because of an option 50, refuse to address egregious issues, void their own warranty or something of that sort, there is 0 defense. But this has not happened. And to the risk of angering some people, I would not put a side dot out of alignment or a couple of frets with slight sprouting as "egregious issue", _especially _considering that it's the type of thing that SSO routinely forgives without even a second thought for literally every other brand.
Just abandoning absolutely all responsibility on a guitar just because it has a non-returnable option is not something they do, plain and simple- and just like shitty customer service, nobody would try to defend that if that if it were the case. So that's pretty much a strawman argument.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I've said it a few times, but I do wish they rolled back restrictions on non-returnable options, and just increased restocking costs for many of those (what are now) non-returnable options, like sparkle, crackle, buckeye, etc.
> 
> Like...if someone just doesnt bond with a guitar with an expensive roasted flamed maple neck, and wants to return if, then Kiesel is stuck with a guitar that will be *really* hard to sell later in the in-stock. By charging a re-srocking fee on it, it reduces the number of people who are just trying expensive options on impulse buy whims, it reduces Kiesel's own liability exposure, and then when they do go to resell it, can offer it at a steeper discounted rate, so it's more likely to sell, since the GIS is meant to be discounted anyway. And then, they get the bonus of appearing to be more lenient with return restrictions.
> 
> Win, win, win, & win.



This would definitely be a large improvement.


----------



## oneblackened

Cynicanal said:


> In the case of raw tone, according to Jeff, it's because the finish wears so easily -- if you play a lot, you could well have visible wear on it long before 10 days. IMO, this makes it also a _stupid_ finish for a guitar, and more evidence that you shouldn't order something they're not willing to take back.


If a finish wears off in 10 days... What the fuck is even going on in their paint shop? 



spudmunkey said:


> The idea for the raw tone is an alternative for just tung oil finish. It offers a 'tiny' bit of protection, and gives people the tone they want from a thin finish (hencethe name), with two aesthetic side-effects: you can see/feel the texture if the wood grain, and unlike tung oil, they can put it over paints/stains.


Okay, 2 things.

1, you can absolutely apply tung oil over stains. I have a guitar with a stained top and a tung oil finish. 
2, if a finish can wear off in 10 days of play, Kiesel really needs to rethink whatever paint they're using. Ibanez did this for _years_ on low end S and RG series models (see: RG321MH, S320/420/7320/7420) without that being a problem.


----------



## WYLD STALLYNS

I actually almost bought a Kiesel.....8 string
But when I saw they had in stock at the Axe Palace a ESP custom shop i said screw it and it was the best decision i made


----------



## mbardu

oneblackened said:


> If a finish wears off in 10 days... What the fuck is even going on in their paint shop?



From the rawtone I've seen it absolutely doesn't wear off within 10 days.

That said, the whole discussion is about why they make some stuff non-returnable, and again, they don't even _have _to have a justification.
They offer many more options than just a few years back, astronomically more options than "off-the-rack" builders who have zero customization, and it's in their right to offer _even more options_, but make those void the 10 day "return for whatever reason" trial. There are no other builders out there offering anything close to that "don't jive with it? just send it back" policy. They just hold off of that for a tiny set of options, that they don't force anyone to pick, and still support the instruments if you do pick something non-returnable. You guys trying to say "but they should make rawtone returnable, they suck for not having a justification", but at the end of the day it's their call, and they don't mislead anyone about what can and cannot be returned. Has anyone asked the ESP custom shop why..._no options at all _are returnable because all builds are final?



oneblackened said:


> Okay, 2 things.
> 
> 1, you can absolutely apply tung oil over stains. I have a guitar with a stained top and a tung oil finish.
> 2, if a finish can wear off in 10 days of play, Kiesel really needs to rethink whatever paint they're using. Ibanez did this for _years_ on low end S and RG series models (see: RG321MH, S320/420/7320/7420) without that being a problem.



Man, if you are trying to argue the quality and durability of finishes, Ibanez should really, _really _not be the horse you pick.


----------



## spudmunkey

oneblackened said:


> If a finish wears off in 10 days... What the fuck is even going on in their paint shop?
> 
> 
> Okay, 2 things.
> 
> 1, you can absolutely apply tung oil over stains. I have a guitar with a stained top and a tung oil finish.
> 2, if a finish can wear off in 10 days of play, Kiesel really needs to rethink whatever paint they're using. Ibanez did this for _years_ on low end S and RG series models (see: RG321MH, S320/420/7320/7420) without that being a problem.



Tung oil can be done over stains, but most of Kiesel's finishes are not stain, but are transparent paints. Yes, they also have stains, and who knows: maybe someone could get them to do tung oil on their dyes/stains/pigments...but it's not something they do.

The finish doesnt "wear off" in 10 days. It merely can show signs of wear much much more quickly, and can in the hours of play people can put on it. The thing is, people are much more forgiving about a guitar hanging in a store that shows wear/scratches/shiny spots. In something mail-order, people are much less forgiving unless it's sold as "used". Which means that they would have to sell it at a steeper discount.

Amusingly, an all-tung-oil finished instrument is still 100% returnable, as it's easy to repair/touch up.


----------



## Dayn

mbardu said:


> One thing that people miss about those consumer protection laws is they typically have severe limitations for anything one-off, bespoke or customized. And I'm sure everyone can understand the logic. Restocking fee, if you're referring to the one that roasted maple used to have falls under the same category as the "Option 50" voiding the voluntary return. If it's something agreed upon with the customer, I doubt it's illegal, or even unethical or unusual for that matters. It's the same as non refundable deposits that many businesses have in place.
> Do you know what is the "restocking fee" for most custom builders that are not Kiesel, so are not the subject of the same hate? 100$ like roasted maple, 20% of the build value? Nope, it's 100% fee because they will simply not take your instrument back for a refund if you change your mind.


There are no such limitations for bespoke items. You must get what you pay for, otherwise you're entitled to a refund (and the ACCC may crack down with a big fine otherwise). Further, if you allow change-of-mind returns, you must honour them exactly as represented. That's a warranty in addition to basic warranties for the quality of goods. If you buy something without a change-of-mind warranty, you're still entitled to have things fixed, and if they cannot, a full refund, no fees attached.


----------



## mbardu

Wolfhorsky said:


> Buying a custom guitar should be great experience. Customer service is one of the major factors affecting the overall feeling about the whole process. I wouldn't want to be treated like nobody by the company I deal with. Never.



Really depends what you value.
At the end of the day, I value the final product, more than the experience of buying it, but your mileage may vary.
That said, in an ideal scenario, you would anyway not have to deal with customer service- only sales. In that ideal scenario you get the guitar right the first time; and Kiesel, like most builders, tend to get it right a majority of the time.
When that's _not _the case, and you have to start dealing with customer service, back and forth shipping, responsibilities etc...it almost always sucks, brings frustration to the buyer, regardless of the brand. There are gems such as John Suhr of course, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. And Kiesel can _on occasion_ get to the total opposite end of that spectrum into total shittiness, no question. Not often, but it doesn't make it any less shitty for the person having the issue.

So if you feel the risk is too high, then I totally get the rationale of people who just decide to skip the brand altogether. 
At least thank you for not making stuff up to justify your thinking further- that alone is reason enough if that's your take on it.


----------



## kisielk

oneblackened said:


> If a finish wears off in 10 days... What the fuck is even going on in their paint shop?
> 
> 
> Okay, 2 things.
> 
> 1, you can absolutely apply tung oil over stains. I have a guitar with a stained top and a tung oil finish.
> 2, if a finish can wear off in 10 days of play, Kiesel really needs to rethink whatever paint they're using. Ibanez did this for _years_ on low end S and RG series models (see: RG321MH, S320/420/7320/7420) without that being a problem.


"Wear" does not mean "wear off", it means signs of use. Have you ever played a guitar with anything similar to a raw tone finish? They're much easier to damage because there isn't a thick layer of poly (basically plastic) over the body of the guitar that protects it from bumps and scratches. Especially if you have a soft body wood even just bumping it against your desk could easily dent or chip it.


----------



## mbardu

Dayn said:


> There are no such limitations for bespoke items. You must get what you pay for, otherwise you're entitled to a refund (and the ACCC may crack down with a big fine otherwise). Further, if you allow change-of-mind returns, you must honour them exactly as represented. That's a warranty in addition to basic warranties for the quality of goods. If you buy something without a change-of-mind warranty, you're still entitled to have things fixed, and if they cannot, a full refund, no fees attached.



I agree with what you wrote.
But if you wanted to make it technical, one could argue that the people who got a custom finish that didn't look like they hoped, or a guitar with sharp fret ends (I've never seen anything close to that on my Kiesel, but I'll believe them) or a poor inlay positioning here or there still essentially got what they paid for, and a full instrument with a warranty. If sharp fret ends or wonky inlays were reasons to say that something is not a guitar to specs, then Ibanez would have been out of business since pretty much forever.

You know full well what I mean about bespoke/custom. Take the example of someone commissioning an art piece that takes the artist 6 months to paint, no reasonable person would expect the painter to be out of his 6 months' effort and income if the buyer doesn't like a couple of brushstrokes in the final product.

And I agree with you, even without a change-of-mind warranty, you're still entitled to have things fixed. That's why even "non-returnable" guitars should and do still carry the same warranty as all other instruments for any manufacturing defect or fundamental issue.

Obviously, the devil is in the details, and in cases where it's not clear cut if something is a big issue or not. If you're unlucky or if Jeff in a bad mood comes into the mix...well then you may end up one of those few cases of the small proportion of the exceptions within those 20,000 where it gets shitty. And that sucks.
Which is why I always recommend to order returnable anyway.


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> I got that one from reality. I mean I'm not the one making stuff up here. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the lies are not on the side you think. Plain roasted maple, like in the build that caused the latest drama, like the one used on 99% of "roasted" builds is absolutely returnable. But don't take my word for it. Call them to ask! Or just check the builder.


I think he said "Roasted necks aren't non-returnable" as in they are returnable? I think???


----------



## Cynicanal

AxRookie said:


> I think he said "Roasted necks aren't non-returnable" as in they are returnable? I think???


This is correct.


----------



## mbardu

AxRookie said:


> I think he said "Roasted necks aren't non-returnable" as in they are returnable? I think???



You're right actually. He didn't deny that roasted maple necks aren't non-returnable so I may have been lost in the quadruple negation 

At least that's settled though, they are returnable, and so no matter how much we want to hate on option 50s, at least we know the latest debacle had nothing to do with that.

Edit: Joke aside, apologies for misreading and misinterpreting that- totally my mistake.


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> You're right actually. He didn't deny that roasted maple necks aren't non-returnable so I may have been lost in the quadruple negation
> 
> At least that's settled though, they are returnable, and so no matter how much we want to hate on option 50s, at least we know the latest debacle had nothing to do with that.
> 
> Edit: Joke aside, apologies for misreading and misinterpreting that- totally my mistake.


It happens to the best of us and I should because I'm the best of us! lol

I love that joke...


----------



## Snarpaasi

So could somebody clarify. If it's an option 50, is it returnable? What if it is a faulty one?


----------



## spudmunkey

Snarpaasi said:


> So could somebody clarify. If it's an option 50, is it returnable? What if it is a faulty one?



1) It depends.
2) it would still have a warranty, just no 10-day trial. Many here would say YMMV.


----------



## AxRookie

AxRookie said:


> It happens to the best of us and I should because I'm the best of us! lol


 It's supposed to be...

It happens to the best of us and I should *know *because I'm the best of us! lol 

But my typing isn't... lol

For some reason, I couldn't edit it?


----------



## Soya

You were probably too busy liking every single mbardu post


----------



## prlgmnr

So to be clear it definitely isn't the case that roasted necks aren't not non-returnable?


----------



## AxRookie

Soya said:


> You were probably too busy liking every single mbardu post


I haven't "liked" all 1,420 of his posts, maybe 15 to 20 of them...


----------



## AxRookie

prlgmnr said:


> So to be clear it definitely isn't the case that roasted necks aren't not non-returnable?


Most definitely 100% chance of maybe they might be or not?


----------



## Thaeon

AxRookie said:


> That's not my logic, my point was I don't judge an entire line of guitars because I've seen a dozen videos of broken headstocks!



When you're talking about Gibson, its a bad design. A lot of builders will call it a design flaw. Not only does the break angle sometimes cause binding in the nut, theres a lot of pressure on the neck there where can cause a very easy break. Which Gibsons are known for havings. So yes, I will judge a brand based on a proven issue that they refuse to fix in the name of tradition.



mbardu said:


> That's where you're not being honest. I only talked about my personal experience with Ibanez and did not generalize what Ibanez does- except to say it's not perfect and noone is. You are the one trying to generalize and say that "Kiesel has more in scale to it's overall production" whereas you have absolutely no fact to back up that claim.
> 
> I'll again stand by that 100% in the sense that, even if Kiesel were to be 1% defect rate (which we're pretty far from), it's still pretty "low risk" for a customized instrument that you can return anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, nobody tried to defend the customer services in those few cases. Thus if you agree that you cannot judge the quality of an instrument (and much less a whole brand of instruments) just because of an internet forum or because of some customer service issues, then we're on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't seem to understand what option 50 means, and you don't seem to understand the difference between "non returnable" and "no responsibility".
> Option 50 is just an old code for options they did not have in the system. Not all "non returnable" things are option 50s, and not all option 50s are non returnable (although most are).
> I don't know why you keep talking about "court", but you may misunderstand as well. Any bespoke/made-to-measure/one-off type of goods that you order will typically have severe limitations on return policies. And that makes sense, if someone spends a lot of time, resources and energy building something to your specs, and everyone was free to refuse the item, it would make no sense.
> That said, here Kiesel goes way above and beyond most other options:
> 
> they do accept returns even for instruments built to your specs, as long as you don't specifically pick something non returnable
> even for instruments with non returnable specs:
> you still get the full warranty for anything functional or problematic with your guitar
> you are still able to return it if *they *made a mistake in the order (such as in my case for the aqua to aquaburst finish mistake). You may be thinking of the earlier poster who did not return his guitar despite issues with specs. But that person _chose_ not to return it.
> 
> however, they will not take a return on a non-returnable instrument just because you do not like how it looks or how it sounds
> Now your point seems to be "but everyone _has_ to orders something non returnable these days". I could just answer that everyone who does so gets ample warning, or that noone is forcing you to order a particular option. But your premise itself is wrong. Yes, rawtone is a non returnable option, and it's a popular one. But nobody is forcing anyone to order rawtone. You can still build anything from a headless guitar finished in gloss solid color to a satin finished Carved Top guitar with a floyd to a a superstrat with 3 single coils and a figured top...none of those are base instruments, yet absolutely returnable. The options are in the hundreds and the combinations are in the literal millions. Anecdotes for anecdotes, of the Kiesel owners I know, I'm the only one who actually _did _order something non returnable a couple of times. And I don't regret it either.



This is about what options they heavily advertise to drive up sales. To get the new thing. Which they option 50. Hey, I want that sparkle paint. Cool, that's an option 50. Really dude? Sparkle paint thats been a norm for 60 plus years? Option 50? Disingenuous marketing.



AxRookie said:


> No what I think THEIR rule means is no posts of people bad-mouthing a brand because they don't like it BUT I also like that members are allowed to air their legitimate grievances at SSO (I don't know why people don't just say "here") because I think it's a good thing!
> 
> Really??? that's the only reason you sold a guitar you liked??? I wouldn't sell my guitar if Jeff killed a baby in front of its mother! I just might not buy another...



This tells me everything I need to know about your character as a human being. I wouldn't want to be seen near their company name after an owner killed a baby. While I understand you're attempting to make a point via hyperbole, I'm an artist trying to sell a product, and I believe in business ethics. I don't want my brand associated with a brand that will publicly belittle and berate their customer base because of a perceived issue. I've never been a fan of Jeff's persona. That didn't put me off of the brand. What does put me off of the brand is the fact that they call it the Kiesel Family, and then when they feel like it, they've verbally abuse you. That's toxic and I want nothing to do with it.



narad said:


> What a shitty spin you put on it. First, Jonathan's not a specific person on the internet, he's a guy I've known for years and had over to my place, and is one of the nicest guys ever (when he's not on the internet). So in short, yes, I have seen the correspondence between him and Kiesel, and I know the situation, and I find it to be absolutely unacceptable. That is forging my own opinion. I know what I'm talking about. Stop trying to discredit an opinion because you don't like it.
> 
> To me, customer service is not something you define by %-no-problem situations, it's how you deal with those situations where something does go wrong. Even if Jonathan was the only person who was wronged by Jeff, it would still be enough to deem it shitty customer service, because it was rude, unapologetic, and presented the customer with little chance of leaving the transaction satisfied. And that's in the case where the fuck-up was entirely on Kiesel's end. No customer deserves that, and especially no big-money repeat customer, if you have any business acumen at all.



% of issues to total guitars is a Quality Control issue. I work for a manufacturer. There are high volume industrial lasers less than 50 yards from my office. My office is in the Quality Control area of the business. I hear these conversations all the time.

Customer Service is all about the customer's experience of dealing with the company and is probably the most important product a company produces. There are two CS funnels. Presale, and post-sale. Post Sale is probably the most important. If your customer service sucks, someone will open a business making something that solves the same issue. Whether or not the product is better, if they treat their client base better, they'll steal your business. No one wants to deal with an asshole if they don't have to. No one buys Apple because they are objectively better computers. They buy them because the post sale support blows Microsoft out of the water at all levels. And people are willing to pay more for that.



AxRookie said:


> To be clear I don't care what one person said OR did and I wasn't involved, I'm not going to let that keep me from getting what I want if it turns out they are the only place that I can find that has what I'm looking for, that is as long as I don't have to interact with that shitty person, after all, Kiesel is not just one person, it's a lot of people working hard to make great guitars and I'm not looking to put hard-working people out of a job because their leader is a shitty person!



This is an incredibly self important thing to say, as your continued support in this scenario is enabling a person to treat another person terribly simply because you were not involved. So you're getting mugged, and you can't get to your phone. You want people to just walk past and pretend that your life experience is okay since they are unaffected or because it is inconvenient that they stop and place a call to the police in order to do the right thing? Threads like this are what challenge people to be better. They may have lost some customers in us, but hopefully, Jeff learns a valuable lesson and does better. Working hard doesn't make you strong. Owning your mistakes and changing your perspective and behavior makes you strong.


----------



## spudmunkey

AxRookie said:


> For some reason, I couldn't edit it?



I believe there is a time limit of 1 hour for editing, _I think_ unless someone has already quoted you.


----------



## mbardu

Soya said:


> You were probably too busy liking every single mbardu post



Isn't it funny how we quickly mock someone who dares to agree that Kiesel _is not 100% shit_, yet nobody bats an eye when we make stuff just to hate Kiesel, and it gets all the likes? Worst part is that the irony is totally lost on most. Thanks for exactly proving the point about lack of objectivity!


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> This is about what options they heavily advertise to drive up sales. To get the new thing. Which they option 50. Hey, I want that sparkle paint. Cool, that's an option 50. Really dude? Sparkle paint thats been a norm for 60 plus years? Option 50? Disingenuous marketing.



If you believe that this is disingenuous marketing, then you must believe that all marketing is disingenuous. As many people have mentioned, it's fine to advertise the most unique or the most expensive things in order to get people's attention. Everyone does that. Do you think it's disingenuous for ESP to display showcase models because it's not what most people get when they buy an LTD?

Additionally, unlike the people who criticize, I actually looked at their Facebook. And their guitars in stock. And their latest big reveal - which was for the Aries neck through. Do they show _some _non returnable stuff in there? Yeah! Is it the large majority? Nope, far from it. But don't take my word from it, just check instead of just "feeling" that it's the case.

Re: sparkle paint, my points are the same as before =>

They didn't offer that feature in the past. They offer it now to the people who are 100% convinced they don't need the 10-day trial. How is that a net loss for the customer? Nobody is forced into that though, and all the other earlier 100% returnable features remain available.
Why non returnable, most likely just because they are expensive options and thus harder to find a buyer for if the person who built it just changes his mind. Way easier to re-sell a 1200$ guitar than a 2k$ with 800$ of cosmetic options. Spud's idea of just increasing restock fees could solve that problem, but in the meantime, it's Kiesel's call, and they have never forced or misled regarding what's returnable or not, so that's fine in my book.
If the sole complaint is "oh no, some of the nice stuff they advertise contains sometimes things that I may want to skip if I want their free 10 day trial", then dang...it's not really so bad, is it? I mean that seriously? Are we such snowflakes that this is a big problem?

I'll remind everyone that nobody is shitting on other builders, yet from the smallest one-man operation to the ESP custom shop, I challenge you to find anyone who even offers anything close to "actually I don't 100% jive with that custom guitar you built for me, just take it back and give me my money back or build me another one to those specs instead".


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Isn't it funny how we quickly mock someone who dares to agree that Kiesel _is not 100% shit_, yet nobody bats an eye when we make stuff just to hate Kiesel, and it gets all the likes. Worst part is that the irony is totally lost on most. Thanks for exactly proving the point about lack of objectivity!



What's really ironic is this thread getting bumped after a few quiet weeks of being quiet by @AxRookie so he could tell us about getting hung up on and the terrible customer service he experienced.


----------



## AxRookie

Thaeon said:


> When you're talking about Gibson, its a bad design. A lot of builders will call it a design flaw. Not only does the break angle sometimes cause binding in the nut, theres a lot of pressure on the neck there where can cause a very easy break. Which Gibsons are known for havings. So yes, I will judge a brand based on a proven issue that they refuse to fix in the name of tradition.
> 
> This tells me everything I need to know about your character as a human being. I wouldn't want to be seen near their company name after an owner killed a baby. While I understand you're attempting to make a point via hyperbole, I'm an artist trying to sell a product, and I believe in business ethics. I don't want my brand associated with a brand that will publicly belittle and berate their customer base because of a perceived issue. I've never been a fan of Jeff's persona. That didn't put me off of the brand. What does put me off of the brand is the fact that they call it the Kiesel Family, and then when they feel like it, they've verbally abuse you. That's toxic and I want nothing to do with it.
> 
> This is an incredibly self important thing to say, as your continued support in this scenario is enabling a person to treat another person terribly simply because you were not involved. So you're getting mugged, and you can't get to your phone. You want people to just walk past and pretend that your life experience is okay since they are unaffected or because it is inconvenient that they stop and place a call to the police in order to do the right thing? Threads like this are what challenge people to be better. They may have lost some customers in us, but hopefully, Jeff learns a valuable lesson and does better. Working hard doesn't make you strong. Owning your mistakes and changing your perspective and behavior makes you strong.


#1 What I meant to say is I don't judge an entire BRAND of guitars because I've seen a dozen videos of broken headstocks! Sorry...

#2 I don't care what your judgment of my character as a human being is, AND I was using "ghoulish overkill" I didn't mean it literally... Gees...

#3 Again I don't care what your judgment of my self-worth is and I don't accept your strawman "getting mugged" argument, Like I said Kiesel is not one or two people, It's all of the many hard-working people there making great guitars, None of which can control Jeff's mental breakdowns so when I buy a guitar from Kiesel I'm thinking of all of those unseen and unheard hard-working people who I wouldn't want to see lose their jobs because their leader sometimes goes off his meds...



xzacx said:


> What's really ironic is this thread getting bumped after a few quiet weeks of being quiet by @AxRookie so he could tell us about getting hung up on and the terrible customer service he experienced.


What can I say, that hang-up did happen along with some setup issues that I corrected myself, you can read all about that at their Kiesel forum... http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51284

BUT the customer service has been great! for me anyway...

Shout out to Joe Stone! Thanks!


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> If you believe that this is disingenuous marketing, then you must believe that all marketing is disingenuous. As many people have mentioned, it's fine to advertise the most unique or the most expensive things in order to get people's attention. Everyone does that. Do you think it's disingenuous for ESP to display showcase models because it's not what most people get when they buy an LTD?



I don't know if you're missing the point or ignoring it, but ESP doesn't use their return policy as a primary marketing tool. That's what makes it different.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> I don't know if you're missing the point or ignoring it, but ESP doesn't use their return policy as a primary marketing tool. That's what makes it different.



They don't, I agree.
Because their custom shop (same for other custom shops) _doesn't have_ an "actually I don't 100% jive with that custom guitar you built for me, just take it back and give me my money back or build me another one to those specs instead" policy. Only Kiesel does. Why wouldn't they advertise something huge that they are the only ones in the industry to offer?

They advertise something that they offer (the return policy) as part of their marketing strategy- like ESP advertises a possibility that they can offer (their showcase models for example) as part of _their _marketing strategy. In the case of Kiesel, the no-questions-asked return policy is not just something theoretical...it's something tangible that 90% of clients benefit from; whereas nobody buying an LTD or base ESP (99.9% of clients) will ever experience anything close to the ESP showcase. Which marketing is more honest?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Posted return policies and warranties are only as good as their real world application. 

Really, a posted policy is only helpful if the situation reaches the point of litigation, and even then, can be open to interpretation based on venue. 

There are plenty of builders, big and small, who will go out of thier way to ensure the customer is satisfied, advertised policy or no.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> What's really ironic is this thread getting bumped after a few quiet weeks of being quiet by @AxRookie so he could tell us about getting hung up on and the terrible customer service he experienced.



Can you please stop just piling on every single person who's _not 100% anti-Kiesel_?

You have made _your _hate for the brand crystal clear (which is funny considering you pretend not to care), so unless you want to show any sort of attempt at actually discussing (for example, you clearly distorted my "I was able to try a lot of guitars and return them at no risk when I found out they were not for me or ordered something else instead" to try to get some sort of gotcha, and just ignore the answers when proven wrong), what are you adding to the discussion? Anything? Otherwise it's clear you're just trying to troll or mislead.


----------



## AxRookie

mbardu said:


> Can you please stop just piling on every single person who's _not 100% anti-Kiesel_?
> 
> You have made _your _hate for the brand crystal clear (which is funny considering you pretend not to care), so unless you want to show any sort of attempt at actually discussing (for example, you clearly distorted my "I was able to try a lot of guitars and return them at no risk when I found out they were not for me or ordered something else instead" to try to get some sort of gotcha, and just ignore the answers when proven wrong), what are you adding to the discussion?


Thanks, but he was only half right if it was even half...

He was right about the hang-up though...


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> There are plenty of builders, big and small, who will go out of thier way to ensure the customer is satisfied, advertised policy or no.



I wouldn't necessarily say "plenty". It's really diverse :

we all know we've seen numerous small to medium sized builders just outright steal people's money or ghost them after delivering some absolutely abject builds
we all know some of the "big brand name" custom shop have been known to produce some questionable work (except ESP custom shop I should say- never heard anything bad there), and when that's the case, it can drag on for weeks or more often months to years with varying levels of success (it can take 2 years to get a rebuild with some shops that shall not be named, to still get an imperfect guitar). Usually those cases are just not as "public" considering the owner doesn't make a fool of himself on social media.
there are some (again my go to would probably be John Suhr) who will _not rest_ until you get something perfect for what you have ordered. And who will be the opposite of some..._other owner_s in terms of humility, communication, transparency etc. I can't think of any of them that would be even close to Kiesel in terms of price btw, but let's leave that aside for a moment. Not even John Suhr will take a guitar back just because you want to get another model instead. Only Kiesel does that. Oh sure, they only do that on...maybe ~90% of the guitars they sell? Wow such a shame, let's hate on them because it's so much worse than the cases above somehow...?


----------



## Thaeon

AxRookie said:


> #1 What I meant to say is I don't judge an entire BRAND of guitars because I've seen a dozen videos of broken headstocks! Sorry...
> 
> #2 I don't care what your judgment of my character as a human being is, AND I was using "ghoulish overkill" I didn't mean it literally... Gees...
> 
> #3 Again I don't care what your judgment of my self-worth is and I don't accept your strawman "getting mugged" argument, Like I said Kiesel is not one or two people, It's all of the many hard-working people there making great guitars, None of which can control Jeff's mental breakdowns so when I buy a guitar from Kiesel I'm thinking of all of those unseen and unheard hard-working people who I wouldn't want to see lose their jobs because their leader sometimes goes off his meds...
> 
> What can I say, that hang-up did happen along with some setup issues that I corrected myself, you can read all about that at their Kiesel forum... http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51284
> 
> BUT the customer service has been great! for me anyway...
> 
> Shout out to Joe Stone! Thanks!



Strawman? No. At best, false equivalence.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I'd be willing to substitute "plenty" with "anyone worth ordering from". 

Measure by the best not by the worst.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> They don't, I agree.
> Because their custom shop (same for other custom shops) _doesn't have_ an "actually I don't 100% jive with that custom guitar you built for me, just take it back and give me my money back or build me another one to those specs instead" policy. Only Kiesel does. Why wouldn't they advertise something huge that they are the only ones in the industry to offer?
> 
> They advertise something that they offer (the return policy) as part of their marketing strategy- like ESP advertises a possibility that they can offer (their showcase models for example) as part of _their _marketing strategy. In the case of Kiesel, the no-questions-asked return policy is not just something theoretical...it's something tangible that 90% of clients benefit from; whereas nobody buying an LTD or base ESP (99.9% of clients) will ever experience anything close to the ESP showcase. Which marketing is more honest?




I can go buy an LTD, base ESP, or even pre-spec'd custom ESP from a dealer, and return it if I don't like it. Or I can not buy it in the first place by trying it out at the store, without having to put the full amount of money up front for the chance to check it out. 

Kiesel and ESP operate in two different ways. That's not a criticism of Kiesel, but they have to use the return policy to lure buyers in who can't try them out in person. It's literally part of their business model. Again—it's not a criticism of the business model, but without that, they're selling a lot less guitars (at least to first-time buyers). So by arbitrarily excluding certain options, it comes off as trying to have it both ways. 

But acting like Kiesel is the only brand that will let you return things or correct a mistake/warranty issue it right is just not a 1:1 comparison, because you're not buying ESPs from ESP. And I've also never heard a story (they may exist, but I can't recall any) of them getting a spec wrong, or delivering a guitar with issues, and not making it right. And I'm 100% sure I've never seen them publicly insulting customers. So yeah, Kiesel does some things right with their return policy and corrections, but they're not unique for this, and because of the business model they choose, it's even more imperative than other brands that they deliver on it.


----------



## AxRookie

Thaeon said:


> Strawman? No. At best, false equivalence.


Ok, That then, Thank you...

I knew there was something I didn't like about it... lol


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> I can go buy an LTD, base ESP, or even pre-spec'd custom ESP from a dealer, and return it if I don't like it. Or I can not buy it in the first place by trying it out at the store, without having to put the full amount of money up front for the chance to check it out.
> 
> Kiesel and ESP operate in two different ways. That's not a criticism of Kiesel, but they have to use the return policy to lure buyers in who can't try them out in person. It's literally part of their business model. Again—it's not a criticism of the business model, but without that, they're selling a lot less guitars (at least to first-time buyers). So by arbitrarily excluding certain options, it comes off as trying to have it both ways.
> 
> But acting like Kiesel is the only brand that will let you return things or correct a mistake/warranty issue it right is just not a 1:1 comparison, because you're not buying ESPs from ESP. And I've also never heard a story (they may exist, but I can't recall any) of them getting a spec wrong, or delivering a guitar with issues, and not making it right. And I'm 100% sure I've never seen them publicly insulting customers. So yeah, Kiesel does some things right with their return policy and corrections, but they're not unique for this, and because of the business model they choose, it's even more imperative than other brands that they deliver on it.



That's fine and dandy, but I'm talking about custom-ordering something, and you know it full well.

If you want to argue "I can go buy an LTD, base ESP, or even pre-spec'd custom ESP from a dealer, and return it if I don't like it", that's great...you can also do that for 90% of the Kiesels (I mean, except the "dealer" part since you buy direct). But in the case of Kiesel, you'll have had the opportunity to build it exactly like you want it, short of maybe 5% of the options. And for that, yes they are unique, and I have no idea why we're pretending it's a bad thing.



xzacx said:


> But acting like Kiesel is the only brand that will let you return things or correct a mistake/warranty issue it right is just not a 1:1 comparison



Nobody said that- no need for strawmen. What I said and I'll stand by is "nobody else will let you spec something _the way you want it_" then return it. Maybe that has no value to you and you would rather the same LTD as everyone else, but it has value to a lot of people.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd be willing to substitute "plenty" with "anyone worth ordering from".
> 
> Measure by the best not by the worst.



That's fine then. I mean I know who I would order from if money and wait time were absolutely no object, and there are better shops than Kiesel out there. I just imagine this would exclude a _lot more shops_ than what most people realize .


----------



## Cynicanal

Thaeon said:


> This is about what options they heavily advertise to drive up sales. To get the new thing. Which they option 50. Hey, I want that sparkle paint. Cool, that's an option 50. Really dude? Sparkle paint thats been a norm for 60 plus years? Option 50? Disingenuous marketing.


There sure are a lot of people in this thread who expect to walk into their local Ford dealer and buy a concept car.


----------



## mbardu

Cynicanal said:


> There sure are a lot of people in this thread who expect to walk into their local Ford dealer and buy a concept car.



People _vocally upset_ that they cannot buy a concept car built one-off to their tastes that would come with a 20Y all inclusive warranty at the price of a basic car; so they criticize the manufacturer for actually offering a _slightly simpler_ line of customizable vehicles that offer a unique return policy that you can try at no cost to yourself.
Oh, and while actually driving and recommending a used generic black sedan where the paint has been cracking and peeling for the last 20 years.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Can you please stop just piling on every single person who's _not 100% anti-Kiesel_?
> 
> You have made _your _hate for the brand crystal clear (which is funny considering you pretend not to care), so unless you want to show any sort of attempt at actually discussing (for example, you clearly distorted my "I was able to try a lot of guitars and return them at no risk when I found out they were not for me or ordered something else instead" to try to get some sort of gotcha, and just ignore the answers when proven wrong), what are you adding to the discussion? Anything? Otherwise it's clear you're just trying to troll or mislead.



It's completely relevant. You directly said "Worst part is that the irony is totally lost on most," while missing the irony of this whole thread getting bumped because Kiesel once again treated someone poorly. You've spent the past 20+ pages defending the brand based on that. If that kid didn't get hung up on, the thread likely would be far removed from the first page like it had been for weeks prior. It didn't start because people decided it was time to hate on Kiesel again, but because Kiesel did the exact thing that they've earned a reputation for. 



mbardu said:


> That's fine and dandy, but I'm talking about custom-ordering something, and you know it full well.
> 
> If you want to argue "I can go buy an LTD, base ESP, or even pre-spec'd custom ESP from a dealer, and return it if I don't like it", that's great...you can also do that for 90% of the Kiesels (I mean, except the "dealer" part since you buy direct). But in the case of Kiesel, you'll have had the opportunity to build it exactly like you want it, short of maybe 5% of the options. And for that, yes they are unique, and I have no idea why we're pretending it's a bad thing.


I fully acknowledge that you're talking about custom ordering something, but with ESP (or Fender or most brands with Custom Shops) you can check out SOME ESP before ordering, see if you like it, then order to your specs. And they'll all make things right of it shows up with issues too.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> It's completely relevant. You directly said "Worst part is that the irony is totally lost on most," while missing the irony of this whole thread getting bumped because Kiesel once again treated someone poorly. You've spent the past 20+ pages defending the brand based on that. If that kid didn't get hung up on, the thread likely would be far removed from the first page like it had been for weeks prior. It didn't start because people decided it was time to hate on Kiesel again, but because Kiesel did the exact thing that they've earned a reputation for.



I don't really care why the thread is here. If I see the type of lies that got there as a result such as "they dropped their quality" or "they will insult you if you try to return" or "there's basically no way to not order a non-option-50" etc, I'll still answer that those are lies.
Again, no need for strawmen- I didn't defend the Kiesel customer service since we all know it can suck at times. just corrected some lies.



xzacx said:


> I fully acknowledge that you're talking about custom ordering something, but with ESP (or Fender or most brands with Custom Shops) you can check out SOME ESP before ordering, see if you like it, then order to your specs. And they'll all make things right of it shows up with issues too.



I don't even know what you're trying to nitpick.
We all know you can look at some guitars before buying with other brands. You're not going to just order blindly, are you? But if you want specific specs, what is the chance to actually find what you want?

For my latest build, I wanted 7 strings, headless with a trem, 25.5 scale, 20' radius, jumbo stainless steel frets, a green figured top, and a piezo. All those specs are important to me, and I'm not even talking about picking...i don't know maybe the very construction of the instrument (neck through in my case), or the guitar woods (it would not have been a deal breaker otherwise, but I was able to pick mahogany body with flamed top- roasted maple neck and royal ebony fretboard) or other cosmetic things (binding, inlays etc)...

First of all, if was to listen to some people here, this guitar should not exist because it has tons of customization...yet it has no option 50 and was perfectly returnable. Which apparently is not possible. What a paradox!
But more importantly, if you're being honest, even all other manufacturers and all dealers considered, how long do you think I would have had to wait to find a guitar like this pop up? I'm sure you realize this would have _literally never happened_.

Again- maybe you put 0 value to being able to order something the way you want it and are perfectly fine with generic middle-of-the-road specs, but I'm sure many people see value in choosing what they want instead of being stuck with what someone else decided. Being able to order what you want, and still be able to return it if you change your mind is unique.


----------



## Thaeon

mbardu said:


> I wouldn't necessarily say "plenty". It's really diverse :
> 
> we all know we've seen numerous small to medium sized builders just outright steal people's money or ghost them after delivering some absolutely abject builds
> we all know some of the "big brand name" custom shop have been known to produce some questionable work (except ESP custom shop I should say- never heard anything bad there), and when that's the case, it can drag on for weeks or more often months to years with varying levels of success (it can take 2 years to get a rebuild with some shops that shall not be named, to still get an imperfect guitar). Usually those cases are just not as "public" considering the owner doesn't make a fool of himself on social media.
> there are some (again my go to would probably be John Suhr) who will _not rest_ until you get something perfect for what you have ordered. And who will be the opposite of some..._other owner_s in terms of humility, communication, transparency etc. I can't think of any of them that would be even close to Kiesel in terms of price btw, but let's leave that aside for a moment. Not even John Suhr will take a guitar back just because you want to get another model instead. Only Kiesel does that. Oh sure, they only do that on...maybe ~90% of the guitars they sell? Wow such a shame, let's hate on them because it's so much worse than the cases above somehow...?



1. Those builders are in breach of contract if there's a bill of sale and are actionable in court, unless they filed for chapter 13.
2. All custom shops botch orders. Regardless of who they are. End point quality control is always on the retailer. ESP may be better at picking dealers than other brands. Fender wants to be everywhere and so does Gibson. That's always going to result in some GC specials. Wood is imperfect and can change shape even after a build is complete. You can't always tell what's going on with the internal stressors of the medium after you remove some of it. Kiesel doesn't have a retailer with a tech covering his ass. Most of these luthiers know better than to belittle their clients live over the air. Jeff's antics are what I would expect from someone who is strung out or has some serious mental health stuff going on. If neither is the case, then he needs to take his knocks and learn from them. We all agree at least on the last part of point 2.
3. Your third point is just good business practice and is the standard that nearly everyone holds themselves to. To address John's custom orders: You can't order directly from Suhr. You order from a dealer and have to abide by the dealer's return policy if you don't like the end result. That said, if you want a custom Suhr, chances are that you played quite a few of them to get the feel for the different options available to you. Shy of being someone like Pete Thorn who owns 30+ guitars and uses them all enough to be able to feel the differences, I'd caution anyone ordering a custom guitar to err on the side of luthier recommendation when it comes to the shapes of things unless you've played something specifically put together with those specs that you really liked. John will bend over backwards to fix issues with his stuff. As will Tom Anderson. They have impeccable reputations for taking care of their customers. 

I have heard Jeff Kiesel talk shit about the other 'california custom shops' on his live streams. Its just in poor taste. I've heard John Suhr speak highly of the Carvin/Kiesel guitars he's seen. I've not made any claims as to the end quality or value of the instruments coming out of Kiesel. I don't have any numbers to support any claims in regards to that. Without those numbers, its irresponsible to make any claims. This is directed specifically @mbardu. Got a link to some numbers? Back up your claim. Otherwise, you're just pulling numbers out of the air and what you're saying is opinion with no foundation in reality.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> I don't really care why the thread is here. If I see the type of lies that got there as a result such as "they dropped their quality" or "they will insult you if you try to return" or "there's basically no way to not order a non-option-50" etc, I'll still answer that those are lies.



Regardless of your intention, at some point (probably less than 15 pages of posts) it'd be nice of you to reconsider the rest of the people here. If you are rehashing points ad infinitum, what is the point? While at the same time it makes it hard for people to enjoy the thread. 

It would be like me going to the conspiracy theories thread and just talking about how dumb they are, quoting every single post and just stating over and over that the loch ness monster doesn't exist. Sure, the loch ness monster doesn't exist, but it would be kind of rude for me to ignore the desires of everyone else in the thread and commandeer it to push my own opinion.

I mean, do you want people to have to make a "Kiesel-Never-Again [No mbardu Allowed]" spin-off thread?


----------



## laxu

xzacx said:


> If you damage any of their finishes, wouldn’t that void any return anyway? (The quality of a finish that can’t hold up to a 10-day trial period is probably another issue, if that’s the argument.) And as far as the “not the right hue” stuff, aren’t figured tops generally returnable? Seems just as open to “not enough figuring” or the finish ending up darker or lighter than someone wanted. It just comes across as a clear attempt to limit the same return policy they have to use as one of their main selling points.



Yes, but damading a thin raw tone finish I imagine would be far easier to do. They don't have any real problem selling a guitar with a small ding on it, but a deeper divot or finish missing is a problem.

But really you need to ask Kiesel why their policies are like this because anything else is speculation.


----------



## Soya

mbardu said:


> Isn't it funny how we quickly mock someone who dares to agree that Kiesel _is not 100% shit_, yet nobody bats an eye when we make stuff just to hate Kiesel, and it gets all the likes? Worst part is that the irony is totally lost on most. Thanks for exactly proving the point about lack of objectivity!


You assume too much that I give any shits about Kiesel. I just thought it was an amusing partnership you and ax formed. I have no interest in listening to you prove you were on your high school debate team. Go play guitar or something, take a load off


----------



## xzacx

Cynicanal said:


> There sure are a lot of people in this thread who expect to walk into their local Ford dealer and buy a concept car.



No, I think we just expected the green Mustang Mach-E to have the same return policy as the red one, if the return policy was one of it's biggest selling points.


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> 1. Those builders are in breach of contract if there's a bill of sale and are actionable in court, unless they filed for chapter 13.
> 2. All custom shops botch orders. Regardless of who they are. End point quality control is always on the retailer. ESP may be better at picking dealers than other brands. Fender wants to be everywhere and so does Gibson. That's always going to result in some GC specials. Wood is imperfect and can change shape even after a build is complete. You can't always tell what's going on with the internal stressors of the medium after you remove some of it. Kiesel doesn't have a retailer with a tech covering his ass. Most of these luthiers know better than to belittle their clients live over the air. Jeff's antics are what I would expect from someone who is strung out or has some serious mental health stuff going on. If neither is the case, then he needs to take his knocks and learn from them. We all agree at least on the last part of point 2.



On point 1, yeah I agree. Doesn't matter though, Kiesel is still the #1 enemy in SSO's eyes

I won't add more on Jeff himself or try top speculate on what is his persona vs what's really in his head. At the end of the day there's no denying that whatever it is, it sucks at times.

I see you didn't really comment on the _downsides _of the dealer as-an-intermediate approach, but I do know that Suhr will go through a dealer for sales purposes. Since we were talking about customer service, i was talking more about what comes past the sales and dealer window, and for me (I have not dealt with everyone, far from it) Suhr has been the golden standard for that service/support.



Thaeon said:


> That said, if you want a custom Suhr, _chances are that you played quite a few of them to get the feel for the different options available to you_. Shy of being someone like Pete Thorn who owns 30+ guitars and uses them all enough to be able to feel the differences, I'd caution anyone ordering a custom guitar to err on the side of luthier recommendation when it comes to the shapes of things unless you've played something specifically put together with those specs that you really liked.



I have no issue with someone who's played tons of Suhr guitars, all models and all options, being 100% sure of his choices before ordering a custom as a result. But even then, there is always the possibility that a spec or two do not jive with you the way you hoped they would on that particular guitar and you don't have much recourse.
With Kiesel, if you want to try a model you've never played with some options you like, you can do that without risk. I don't know what the downside is with that.



Thaeon said:


> I have heard Jeff Kiesel talk shit about the other 'california custom shops' on his live streams. Its just in poor taste. I've heard John Suhr speak highly of the Carvin/Kiesel guitars he's seen. I've not made any claims as to the end quality or value of the instruments coming out of Kiesel. I don't have any numbers to support any claims in regards to that. Without those numbers, its irresponsible to make any claims. This is directed specifically @mbardu. Got a link to some numbers? Back up your claim. Otherwise, you're just pulling numbers out of the air and what you're saying is opinion with no foundation in reality.



I don't have any exact number, no. I know that the cases who are being talked about online over and over (depending on what you consider severe) are probably between...10 and 20 to be generous. Including some drama that had nothing to do with the actual quality of the guitars. I don't know the proportion of total issues vs issues _that have been reported online_, but I would expect a slightly higher ratio than other brands considering how young/online their demographics typically skew. I do know that Kiesel has produced about 20 thousand guitars over the last 5 years though. That's all the "general" info I have. I don't think anyone has _objective quality numbers_ on any builders_._ How could you even be objective about quality of an instrument?
I do know that in my _anecdotal subjective experience_ of owning more than 100 Carvin/Kiesel, I have seen pretty high quality in general. To keep the Suhr comparison, I would say that Suhr has been more consistent at always being perfect or almost perfect. Some Carvin/Kiesel have been "just" good to great, without ever being bad (I've probably been lucky avoiding the bad ones both new and used over all these years). But a good number of them, _especially _recent ones have been just as good as good Suhrs. My main 6 is a Modern, my main 7 is a Vader, and one is not a better instrument than the other.

But I don't need or intend to generalize my own experience TBH. I don't pretend to be the arbiter of quality, and my point has been and remains that if a person wants to make their own opinion, they are free to just order a returnable guitar to their spec (or an in-stock for that matter), and return it with 0 hassle if the feel or quality is not there in _their _opinion.


----------



## Thaeon

mbardu said:


> People _vocally upset_ that they cannot buy a concept car built one-off to their tastes that would come with a 20Y all inclusive warranty at the price of a basic car; so they criticize the manufacturer for actually offering a _slightly simpler_ line of customizable vehicles that offer a unique return policy that you can try at no cost to yourself.
> Oh, and while actually driving and recommending a used generic black sedan where the paint has been cracking and peeling for the last 20 years.



This is a false comparison. Cars can be driven prior to being purchased and have available options and upgrades. Much like Kiesel. They still have a return policy. If I want a one off to my tastes guitar I'd buy one. In fact I did. And I'm again, not interested in the quality of the guitar. I'm interested in the policy and why its there. There is no way to play a Kiesel. So one has to order it and have it shipped. If you're going to do that, you're going to spec it the way you'd like to keep it. The return policy is in place of the try before you buy at a store. Adding option 50 is dangling a carrot to entice sales. Its a way of gaining new sales from people who may have been waiting for a specific options to purchase for the first time and then taking their money without allowing them to make sure they are perfectly happy with their purchase. I don't understand the thin paint issue either. Dealers have to deal with this sort of thing all the time and live with the shrink. Get some insurance, and give people the experience they clearly want. Option 50 is a means of guaranteeing revenue at the expense of someone's positive experience. Kiesel chose how they do business. Its on them to do what is right by the customer. 

None of this even addresses why I won't give them my money. Jeff's poor attitude in regards to his clients is why I refuse to spend another dime with that company. If you can't conduct yourself well with your clients and treat them with respect and consideration, you don't deserve their business.



narad said:


> Regardless of your intention, at some point (probably less than 15 pages of posts) it'd be nice of you to reconsider the rest of the people here. If you are rehashing points ad infinitum, what is the point? While at the same time it makes it hard for people to enjoy the thread.
> 
> It would be like me going to the conspiracy theories thread and just talking about how dumb they are, quoting every single post and just stating over and over that the loch ness monster doesn't exist. Sure, the loch ness monster doesn't exist, but it would be kind of rude for me to ignore the desires of everyone else in the thread and commandeer it to push my own opinion.
> 
> I mean, do you want people to have to make a "Kiesel-Never-Again [No mbardu Allowed]" spin-off thread?


----------



## diagrammatiks

I feel like I'm yelling into the void here.

Guys this is a shitposting thread filled with people that aren't ever going to buy a kiesel. 

It's like if you went to a good steak house. like a Morton's are something. 

they serve a pretty good steak. 

but what happens is that the waiter comes and takes a giant shit right next to your seat while you're eating. 

is the steak still good? probably. 

but get this some people don't like the possibility that they might get shit on. 

some people will gladly ask for another heat steamer as long as the steak is good.

That's ok. we can all get along. which is why there are 2 fucking threads about kiesel.


----------



## Thaeon

mbardu said:


> I have no issue with someone who's played tons of Suhr guitars, all models and all options, being 100% sure of his choices before ordering a custom as a result. But even then, there is always the possibility that a spec or two do not jive with you the way you hoped they would on that particular guitar and you don't have much recourse.
> With Kiesel, if you want to try a model you've never played with some options you like, you can do that without risk. I don't know what the downside is with that.



What if the option you like is option 50? What if that's the selling point? You order a guitar sans options 50 to check specs, then return it and order the one WITH Option 50 that you actually wanted? You think that Jeff isn't aware that this is most likely happening and is likely why there is resistance to returns in some instances? This doesn't seem like hassle free to me. It seems like a huge hassle.


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> This is a false comparison. Cars can be driven prior to being purchased and have available options and upgrades. Much like Kiesel. They still have a return policy. If I want a one off to my tastes guitar I'd buy one. In fact I did. And I'm again, not interested in the quality of the guitar. I'm interested in the policy and why its there. There is no way to play a Kiesel. So one has to order it and have it shipped. If you're going to do that, you're going to spec it the way you'd like to keep it. The return policy is in place of the try before you buy at a store. Adding option 50 is dangling a carrot to entice sales. Its a way of gaining new sales from people who may have been waiting for a specific options to purchase for the first time and then taking their money without allowing them to make sure they are perfectly happy with their purchase. I don't understand the thin paint issue either. Dealers have to deal with this sort of thing all the time and live with the shrink. Get some insurance, and give people the experience they clearly want. Option 50 is a means of guaranteeing revenue at the expense of someone's positive experience. Kiesel chose how they do business. Its on them to do what is right by the customer.
> 
> None of this even addresses why I won't give them my money. Jeff's poor attitude in regards to his clients is why I refuse to spend another dime with that company. If you can't conduct yourself well with your clients and treat them with respect and consideration, you don't deserve their business.



I totally get people who are turned off by Jeff's attitude or the worst cases of customer service. And that's argument enough to not consider the brand in my book.

Why the fixation on the option 50 stuff though? It's on a minority of the guitars they sell, it's on a minority of the guitars they advertise, and they will never mislead someone into getting something non returnable without their knowledge. They are for options that would otherwise not exist (so they're a "plus"), and even people who get them still have the same warranty. Of course everything is "a way of gaining new sales", they're a business- and in most cases it's a win win because most people who get those are happy with their instruments.



Thaeon said:


> What if the option you like is option 50? What if that's the selling point? You order a guitar sans options 50 to check specs, then return it and order the one WITH Option 50 that you actually wanted? You think that Jeff isn't aware that this is most likely happening and is likely why there is resistance to returns in some instances? This doesn't seem like hassle free to me. It seems like a huge hassle.



Option 50 is a minority of options that would anyway not exist in the catalog otherwise. Most are cosmetic. None are "must have" features or impact the quality of the instrument. If you are risk averse _at all_, you don't have to order- nobody will force you to. And even if you do, then it's just like any other custom shop. You get a warranty, but the guitar is yours to keep. In all those years I only ordered "non returnable" twice...so why is it such a big problem for people who are not even considering the brand at all?


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> No, I think we just expected the green Mustang Mach-E to have the same return policy as the red one, if the return policy was one of it's biggest selling points.



If they advertise upfront for the red one that "this one's finish takes more work and is more expensive and is non returnable if you pick that particular color", then what's wrong with that?

Since I've noticed that you're quick to reply with a small quip, but are silent when I actually replied to your actual points above- I'll just continue with the metaphor and say that if I had to choose between three builders for the Mach-E:

builder A has one trim level and one color (black)
builder B has 4 trim levels, custom options for engine/interior/tires/wheels, any color you like, less expensive, longer warranty, no-hassle return policy- with just the red one being a special one that's a non returnable finish that's advertised as such upfront
builder C can change absolutely anything about the car, but it takes 2 years to get your car, cost 5 times as much, and you cannot change your mind
I'd go with builder B any day of the week. I can even try a few versions of the car until I find the one version that's just right for me.
Whereas for SSO, builder B has made the horrible move of including the red one alongside 5 other examples in a photo of their marketing material with an asterisk for "non returnable option", so suddenly the only possible outcome is to pick builder A. Wat?


----------



## diagrammatiks

mbardu said:


> Whereas for SSO, builder B has made the horrible move of including the red one alongside 5 other examples in a photo of their marketing material with an asterisk for "non returnable option", so suddenly the only possible outcome is to pick builder A. Wat?



yes yes all of sso. when literally you and five people are responsible for updating this thread.

honestly, why don't you post in the other thread? did it hurt you?


----------



## Cynicanal

Thaeon said:


> Cars can be driven prior to being purchased and have available options and upgrades.


Only if it's already on the lot. If you place a special order for the exact trim level/color/etc. you want, you're not going to get to test drive it; you're going to have to take whatever comes.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> yes yes all of sso. when literally you and five people are responsible for updating this thread.
> 
> honestly, why don't you post in the other thread? did it hurt you?



Ow what's with the aggression man? Feeling angry?... OK, I don't see how that has any to do with the substance of the argument, but if you feel personally attacked (that was clearly not the intention), I'll retract the "all of SSO" and let's just take that to mean "the people I was replying to here". Hopefully that makes you feel better!


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> Ow what's with the aggression?... OK, I don't see how that has any to do with the substance of the argument, but if you feel personally attacked (that was clearly not the intention), I'll retract the "all of SSO" and let's just take that to mean "the people I was replying to here". Hopefully that makes you feel better.


Can someone make you feel better?

How about more Kiesel jokes to lighten the mood?


----------



## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> Can someone make you feel better?
> 
> How about more Kiesel jokes to lighten the mood?



Wat? I'm not the one butthurt who's having to retort to personal attacks, am I  ?
That said if you have any Jeff Kiesel bevel jokes, I think noone will be opposed to that!


----------



## Thaeon

Cynicanal said:


> Only if it's already on the lot. If you place a special order for the exact trim level/color/etc. you want, you're not going to get to test drive it; you're going to have to take whatever comes.



You're missing the entire point of my argument.

If you were intelligent you drove one that didn't have the trim and options you wanted that had a the same engine. Meaning as close to the one you're spec-ing as possible. You CAN also shop around and hit up different lots to find what you're looking for with most try before you by situations. Same with guitars. You can hit up plenty of stores, generally speaking, trying multiple versions of the same thing. With Kiesel, this isn't a situation where you can arguably, pull a Goldilocks. As some point, shipping is costing someone a crap ton of money. You gonna front for 7 Kiesels and return 6? That's not likely going to fly either. This isn't a customer's desires first business plan. This is a business first plan. Especially when you look at their customer service reputation.


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> You're missing the entire point of my argument.
> 
> If you were intelligent you drove one that didn't have the trim and options you wanted that had a the same engine. Meaning as close to the one you're spec-ing as possible. You CAN also shop around and hit up different lots to find what you're looking for with most try before you by situations. Same with guitars. You can hit up plenty of stores, generally speaking, trying multiple versions of the same thing. With Kiesel, this isn't a situation where you can arguably, pull a Goldilocks. As some point, shipping is costing someone a crap ton of money. You gonna front for 7 Kiesels and return 6? That's not likely going to fly either. This isn't a customer's desires first business plan. This is a business first plan. Especially when you look at their customer service reputation.



You're pushing it. If you try 1, 2 or 3 of their guitars and you absolutely don't like any of them at all, you wont try 7. Maybe they're not for you and you move on. That's OK!

But maybe you try a basic Vader, like it except for a spec or two so you return it for a rebuild and are happy with it, great!

A year later you try a crescent, all decked out, with piezo, figured top, your favorite color, favorite pickups and neck type etc etc (that's still 100% returnable btw)....and too bad... you find the design uncomfortable so you return it. Maybe you stop there with a refund, or maybe order another Vader with the specs above instead, since you liked that model.

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to make up an extreme case (order 7 guitars at once?) to make their business model look bad? You don't like it and think paying shipping a couple of times (so less than a hundred bucks) is too much. Fair enough, if you think it's better putting 4 to 10k in the balance for another builder with no way to change your mind, that's fine too- you do you. But clearly a lot of people think paying return shipping to try a customized guitar is very fair, and there's nothing wrong with that. Letting clients customize a guitar with 95% of their options that they can still return if they change their mind is extremely customer friendly.

Customer service again... They have bad lapses sometimes. VERY bad. Nobody denied that. But to simply return something returnable? Nope, not going to happen! And Jeff and his antics would never be involved in that since it's part of their business as usual to accept standard returns for people who sometimes change their mind. That's why, even if you are even a tiny bit risk averse, don't order the Mach-E in shiny red (I mean, the Kiesel with option 50s) since it's non returnable. Nobody is forcing your hand.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Regardless of your intention, at some point (probably less than 15 pages of posts) it'd be nice of you to reconsider the rest of the people here. If you are rehashing points ad infinitum, what is the point? While at the same time it makes it hard for people to enjoy the thread.
> 
> It would be like me going to the conspiracy theories thread and just talking about how dumb they are, quoting every single post and just stating over and over that the loch ness monster doesn't exist. Sure, the loch ness monster doesn't exist, but it would be kind of rude for me to ignore the desires of everyone else in the thread and commandeer it to push my own opinion.
> 
> I mean, do you want people to have to make a "Kiesel-Never-Again [No mbardu Allowed]" spin-off thread?



I've seen that take from others too but I'll reply to you since you expanded a bit. I'm not sure you realize that this post is not really serving your arguments though. Literally comparing a good number of serious posters here to flat-earthers or conspiracy theorist snowflakes, and saying they need their safe space and it's rude to tell them that they're wrong when they make up new stuff? That's the argument?

I mean... That's fine for some people I guess, and earlier on that was kinda what I was asking about when I wondered with new joiners whether this thread was now OK to be removed from reality and kept only to bash Kiesel by making new stuff up. But when i asked about that, some people were adamant that instead "no we're totally serious, Kiesel is totally the worst for XYZ reasons". So it's those people I'm trying to reply to in good faith, and since they're in this thread I'm replying in this thread. If you want to create a "let's bash Kiesel and make up new lies just for the heck of it" in order to separate the two ideas, please feel free to! I won't spoil the safe space, I promise. This current thread was not made for that in the first place though, it was initially based on legit customer service complaints that didn't need any new made up stuff to be very real.


----------



## Jonathan20022

You have some weird misconceptions of return policies and warranty repair from other manufacturers.

Maybe some of them don't have to boast about a return policy and have it in writing when they're trusted to fix your issues. If you don't know what you want from a custom instrument you shouldn't be ordering one in the first place, there's no official gate keep of a custom instrument, but I'd like to think that if you're putting down some cash you at the very least did some research on the brand you're considering.

Like @Thaeon mentioned, having to put up cash just to try a basic outline of what you'd be getting if you were committing to your desires is a hassle in the first place. So if there's no way to try it without pulling a flight or road trip if you don't live around the factory leaves plenty of buyers without an opportunity to try a brand new Kiesel or the variety of options without ordering.

This isn't exclusive to Kiesel, and I don't believe a single person in this thread has questioned the validity of returning a *returnable* instrument to Kiesel. That's your point, as a counter to the elephant in the room and you've extended that point into a 20 page discussion.

I've had plenty of positive experiences with other manufacturers including one that doesn't even formally have a written warranty nor return policy.
Aristides: Fedex/Customs damaged my custom guitar's finish, so they took it back and returned it to me overnighted to and from the Netherlands after evaluating how easy it would be to fix. It wasn't a simple fix, so they allowed me to play the guitar since it still functioned and played fine while I waited for my brand new custom to be built (Completely different specs if I so desired, and I made several tweaks to the original specs). They've serviced and sent me replacement Floyd/Hipshot parts at no cost to me as well several times, even on second hand instruments.

Suhr: One of my custom orders was a Custom Classic, and I decided to be adventurous with the specs and chose a neck profile I hadn't tried before. The guitar had some fret lifting issues *a few months *down the road and I didn't end up jiving with the neck as much as I'd liked due to thickness near the headstock. I was *offered:* a rebuild with a neck profile of my choosing as well (With the option of a completely new order and the original amount paid as a credit on the new order if it costs more), or get this, a refund and the option to walk with the successful return of the Classic. They also didn't ask me to foot the bill on the shipping either, which was especially nice of them.

Blackwater Guitars: Ordered a pair of in stocks headed to Destroy All Guitars, and one of them wasn't packed super well and sustained damaged to the tip of the headstock. Aaron interfaced with me directly and had the guitar shipped back to him, and had the headstock wood chip and binding repaired with literally no hassle to me whatsoever. It's a shame he fell apart, considering the quality of his instruments, but he took care of me and did the only thing I needed him to do. Build me the guitars I ordered as I ordered them, and correct any issues if they happened to appear.

I've ordered customs from Mayones, Kiesel, Aristides, Suhr, Thorn, EBMM, Blackwater Guitars (RIP), and I've only had one egregious experience with the manufacturer. Had two dealerships pull some weird things before involving not placing my order after over a year's wait, but not something I can pin on the manufacturer.

The interesting observation between all these brands, is that only one of them has available specs that completely void their return policy  Thaeon put it perfectly, this is a business-first approach because it's the approach Kiesel has to take due to not having distribution around the states/world.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Since I've noticed that you're quick to reply with a small quip, but are silent when I actually replied to your actual points above- I'll just continue with the metaphor and say that if I had to choose between three builders for the Mach-E:
> 
> builder A has one trim level and one color (black)
> builder B has 4 trim levels, custom options for engine/interior/tires/wheels, any color you like, less expensive, longer warranty, no-hassle return policy- with just the red one being a special one that's a non returnable finish that's advertised as such upfront
> builder C can change absolutely anything about the car, but it takes 2 years to get your car, cost 5 times as much, and you cannot change your mind
> I'd go with builder B any day of the week. I can even try a few versions of the car until I find the one version that's just right for me.
> Whereas for SSO, builder B has made the horrible move of including the red one alongside 5 other examples in a photo of their marketing material with an asterisk for "non returnable option", so suddenly the only possible outcome is to pick builder A. Wat?



Ok, so you're upset about quips, and then make one about the entire site in the process? This pointless and inaccurate analogy forgets to mention that SSO is aware of builder B's reputation for bad customer service, and acts like all things are equal when it comes to the quality and design for each builder.


----------



## mlp187

@mbardu maybe you said it already, but to be honest you write way too much for my tired eyes - why have you returned 10+ Kiesels?


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Ok, so you're upset about quips, and then make one about the entire site in the process? This pointless and inaccurate analogy forgets to mention that SSO is aware of builder B's reputation for bad customer service, and acts like all things are equal when it comes to the quality and design for each builder.



I'll notice as usual you don't even try to answer and instead just try to pivot. If you call "SSO picks builder A" a quip, happy to hear from you why this is isn't exactly what has been happening. On the "_hur dur it's not the whole SSO_", that's fine, I replied to that already - I clearly meant the posters here, you included- not _literally everyone on the forum_.

If you want to make things specific, call builder A a 2k Ibanez Prestige AZ, builder B a 1.5k Kiesel delos of similar specs- but customized to your taste, and builder C a custom Tom Anderson. Out of over a hundred Carvin/Kiesel and 20+ Ibanez prestige, I'd say the quality of Carvin/Kiesel has been overwhelmingly superior to the Ibanez (but everyone is free to try and make up their own mind instead of taking my word for it) but I'll settle on "equivalent" quality, that's fine.

What's wrong with the analogy then?
You were the one doing an analogy with the Mach-E in the first place, so now walking it back because you have no answer is a bit of a cop out.


----------



## AxRookie

xzacx said:


> It's completely relevant. You directly said "Worst part is that the irony is totally lost on most," while missing the irony of this whole thread getting bumped because Kiesel once again treated someone poorly. You've spent the past 20+ pages defending the brand based on that. If that kid didn't get hung up on, the thread likely would be far removed from the first page like it had been for weeks prior. It didn't start because people decided it was time to hate on Kiesel again, but because Kiesel did the exact thing that they've earned a reputation for.
> 
> 
> I fully acknowledge that you're talking about custom ordering something, but with ESP (or Fender or most brands with Custom Shops) you can check out SOME ESP before ordering, see if you like it, then order to your specs. And they'll all make things right of it shows up with issues too.


Wait a minute, I think I'm the one who bumped this thread and Kiesel didn't treat me poorly? I was hung up on once which was two weeks after I placed my order and then they apologized shortly after and since then I've been treated great, the prob I had was the poor setup of my guitar resulting in a few issues I was able to correct myself, please stop trying to turn my less than perfect experience into something it was not...

I just wanted to share my experiences with Kiesel, not start a war of words...


----------



## mbardu

mlp187 said:


> @mbardu maybe you said it already, but to be honest you write way too much for my tired eyes - why have you returned 10+ Kiesels?



No problem, I'll copy paste from one of my earlier replies:



mbardu said:


> The moss green CT7 I ordered was not comfortable for me to play standing up but at least i got to try it to figure that out, the v7 multiscale i returned because after a misunderstanding they finished the guitar in aquaburst instead of aqua, the red contour 66 I decided to get a fixed bridge and another color (my pink one) instead, the gold top CT i returned because the wait for the guitar was so long (it was the first they built with the new piezo and we didn't know how long it would take to get it right) that i had just moved on to other things etc etc etc. All of them were well built and played well. A few of them i know for a fact are adored by their new owners.


----------



## AxRookie

Maybe we should all take a break from this thread for a week and let everything settle down a bit???


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## cip 123

AxRookie said:


> Maybe we should all take a break from this thread for a week and let everything settle down a bit???


It's literally just you and mbardu that have an issue with this thread. So please do


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## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> You have some weird misconceptions of return policies and warranty repair from other manufacturers.
> 
> Maybe some of them don't have to boast about a return policy and have it in writing when they're trusted to fix your issues. If you don't know what you want from a custom instrument you shouldn't be ordering one in the first place, there's no official gate keep of a custom instrument, but I'd like to think that if you're putting down some cash you at the very least did some research on the brand you're considering.
> 
> Like @Thaeon mentioned, having to put up cash just to try a basic outline of what you'd be getting if you were committing to your desires is a hassle in the first place. So if there's no way to try it without pulling a flight or road trip if you don't live around the factory leaves plenty of buyers without an opportunity to try a brand new Kiesel or the variety of options without ordering.
> 
> This isn't exclusive to Kiesel, and I don't believe a single person in this thread has questioned the validity of returning a *returnable* instrument to Kiesel. That's your point, as a counter to the elephant in the room and you've extended that point into a 20 page discussion.
> 
> I've had plenty of positive experiences with other manufacturers including one that doesn't even formally have a written warranty nor return policy.
> Aristides: Fedex/Customs damaged my custom guitar's finish, so they took it back and returned it to me overnighted to and from the Netherlands after evaluating how easy it would be to fix. It wasn't a simple fix, so they allowed me to play the guitar since it still functioned and played fine while I waited for my brand new custom to be built (Completely different specs if I so desired, and I made several tweaks to the original specs). They've serviced and sent me replacement Floyd/Hipshot parts at no cost to me as well several times, even on second hand instruments.
> 
> Suhr: One of my custom orders was a Custom Classic, and I decided to be adventurous with the specs and chose a neck profile I hadn't tried before. The guitar had some fret lifting issues *a few months *down the road and I didn't end up jiving with the neck as much as I'd liked due to thickness near the headstock. I was *offered:* a rebuild with a neck profile of my choosing as well (With the option of a completely new order and the original amount paid as a credit on the new order if it costs more), or get this, a refund and the option to walk with the successful return of the Classic. They also didn't ask me to foot the bill on the shipping either, which was especially nice of them.
> 
> Blackwater Guitars: Ordered a pair of in stocks headed to Destroy All Guitars, and one of them wasn't packed super well and sustained damaged to the tip of the headstock. Aaron interfaced with me directly and had the guitar shipped back to him, and had the headstock wood chip and binding repaired with literally no hassle to me whatsoever. It's a shame he fell apart, considering the quality of his instruments, but he took care of me and did the only thing I needed him to do. Build me the guitars I ordered as I ordered them, and correct any issues if they happened to appear.
> 
> I've ordered customs from Mayones, Kiesel, Aristides, Suhr, Thorn, EBMM, Blackwater Guitars (RIP), and I've only had one egregious experience with the manufacturer. Had two dealerships pull some weird things before involving not placing my order after over a year's wait, but not something I can pin on the manufacturer.
> 
> The interesting observation between all these brands, is that only one of them has available specs that completely void their return policy  Thaeon put it perfectly, this is a business-first approach because it's the approach Kiesel has to take due to not having distribution around the states/world.



I'll start by saying that I also have had great experiences with Aristides and Suhr, so I'll only second what you're saying. They are among those I'll always recommend, especially if money is no object. Never tried Blackwater. I've also had positive experiences with the Kiesel customer service too- but I acknowledge it can get bad. No matter, it's great to have choices and all of those brands have their pros and cons.

I will point out to you, however, that all your examples are about fixes or changes made to guitars, after some issues started to appear. That's not what I am talking about though. I am talking about building something customized, and sending it back with no questions, even if it's just that you'd like to try something else instead. Or if the guitar doesn't subjectively sound how you expected it to. Or you subjectively don't like the final looks.

Can you buy a 5k Suhr to your specs and after playing it for 10 days decide you'd rather try something else, and your dealer will refund you 100% of the money? I've had a Custom modern from Suhr that was amazingly built, beautiful quilt top, nothing wrong with it, but it was very very heavy compared to the others Iv'e had/tried, and it sounded way too "honky" in the low mediums to my tastes. That was not reason enough to change it free of charge though.
If it's possible now, that's news to me, and I'll take back that Kiesel is unique. Is that possible? I very much doubt that, and most dealers have _at least _20% that's absolutely non-refundable. But please feel free to correct me because that would only make my praise for Suhr (and/or a particular dealer) higher. I'll wait.

If it's _not _possible, then indeed there's something unique to Kiesel, and no other discussion, or praise of other manufacturers will negate that.
And in that case, your joke about "available specs that completely void their return policy" is 100% dishonest because Kiesel may have 5% of options (and sure we can talk about how that's soooo unfair from a marketing standpoint- or you can pretend it's a big deal when we all know it's actually a minority of instruments) that void the 10 day no-questions-asked trial...but for the other builders, it's *100% *of options that void it considering they have no such trial in place. And from where I'm standing 5% < < 100%.

@Thaeon and you seem to think there is no value in allowing people to customize a guitar and try it at no risk.
That's fine, maybe there's no value in that for you. But I and many others certainly think that's valuable.

And you saying "I swear I'm not gatekeeping" doesn't negate the fact that it's exactly what you do when you say "If you don't know what you want from a custom instrument you shouldn't be ordering one in the first place". It's like, literally what you're doing.
What is that supposed to mean? Take my earlier example...instead of getting an Ibanez AZ prestige with a bland finish and ugly headstock, you can get a Kiesel Delos customized how you like, often of higher quality (but I'll settle on equivalent), with a finish you prefer, for less $$$. You can even try let's say fixed bridge HSS first and change that to trem/HH or any other change at no risk...and still get a full refund towards the AZ if it turns out Kiesel is not right for you. What's wrong with that?
And you're saying, "nope that's not allowed, you have to know exactly what you want and have 4k$ to drop to be allowed a custom guitar". Why?


----------



## AxRookie

cip 123 said:


> It's literally just you and mbardu that have an issue with this thread. So please do


That's not true, It's people like you stirring the pot, or people trying to twist the facts!

BUT IF we can ALL step back and take a breather without comments like yours I think that would be a good thing...


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## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> It's literally just you and mbardu that have an issue with this thread. So please do



I don't have an issue with that thread and don't mind answering in good faith to the people who are interested in the discussion.
And there seems to be plenty of such people, considering the number of replies. You are not forced to read though, if that bothers you. Cheers!


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## spudmunkey

AxRookie said:


> That's not true, It's people like you stirring the pot, or people trying to twist the facts!
> 
> BUT IF we can ALL step back and take a breather without comments like yours I think that would be a good thing...



There's also this thread for more general discussion:
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-200#post-5144082


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> I will point out to you, however, that all your examples are about fixes or changes made to guitars, after some issues started to appear. That's not what I am talking about though. I am talking about building something customized, and sending it back with no questions, even if it's just that you'd like to try something else instead. Or if the guitar doesn't subjectively sound how you expected it to. Or you subjectively don't like the final looks.



No one else is talking about this, you are the only person discussing their return policy. You brought that point into the discussion as a

"Well, while you definitely cannot return a build with an Option 50 risk free. You could just order a build without an option 50 and you are now in the clear to return your instrument no questions asked within 10 days."

I don't know how many times I have to state this, this is a point you've held that no one contests.



mbardu said:


> Can you buy a 5k Suhr to your specs and after playing it for 10 days decide you'd rather try something else, and your dealer will refund you 100% of the money? I've had a Custom modern from Suhr that was amazingly built, beautiful quilt top, nothing wrong with it, but it was very very heavy compared to the others Iv'e had/tried, and it sounded way too "honky" in the low mediums to my tastes. That was not reason enough to change it free of charge though.
> If it's possible now, that's news to me, and I'll take back that Kiesel is unique. Is that possible? I very much doubt that, and most dealers have _at least _20% that's absolutely non-refundable. But please feel free to correct me because that would only make my praise for Suhr (and/or a particular dealer) higher. I'll wait.
> 
> If it's _not _possible, then indeed there's something unique to Kiesel, and no other discussion, or praise of other manufacturers will negate that.
> And in that case, your joke about "available specs that completely void their return policy" is 100% dishonest because Kiesel may have 5% of options (and sure we can talk about how that's soooo unfair from a marketing standpoint- or you can pretend it's a big deal when we all know it's actually a minority of instruments) that void the 10 day no-questions-asked trial...but for the other builders, it's *100% *of options that void it considering they have no such trial in place. And from where I'm standing 5% < < 100%.



Other builders don't need to state that you have a 10 day trial period. We had a thread on this same forum a few months ago about a guy who was unhappy with the figuring on his Flame Top and after speaking to his dealer, Jackson are rebuilding his instrument.

I'm actually pretty close with Pascal from Aristides, and we talk all the time without the topic being to spec a new instrument. And it's funny because he told me about 3 years ago that he received a request to redo a marble finish on one of their guitars because the result was not to the buyer's expectations. Pascal went ahead and asked his painter to redo it, despite it being *by nature *a one off process that always creates a different pattern on the instrument. He doesn't need to have a warranty or return policy written on their website to honor situations where customers are not happy with their guitars. And other brands seemingly do not see a need to do this either.

And you've returned 10 guitars at this point, maybe on the 11th build Jeff will question why your name has so many returns tagged along it and then barre you from ever ordering again. That's something Amazon and any other business does to people who read the fine print and decide that they can take advantage of it. It's also not a hassle free method to put down 1k+ just to try an instrument and decide if it's something up your alley before delving deeper into the specs and ordering exactly what you want. You still have to put down a large sum of money, wait through the build time, deal with returning it, and reordering the 2nd one.

Again, if you are ordering a custom instrument without trying one or doing research on it, you are setting yourself up for failure. Using the system as you seem to is not efficient, nor is it hassle free.



mbardu said:


> @Thaeon and you seem to think there is no value in allowing people to customize a guitar and try it at no risk.
> That's fine, maybe there's no value in that for you. But I and many others certainly think that's valuable.
> And you saying "I swear I'm not gatekeeping" doesn't negate the fact that it's exactly what you do when you say "If you don't know what you want from a custom instrument you shouldn't be ordering one in the first place". It's like, literally what you're doing.



No one said that, major brands with custom shops frequently populate their dealership network with examples of said products and you're free to head to a dealership near you to try the instrument without all the little nuances of the Kiesel process.

And that's not gate keeping, it's advice in the best interest of the buyer. If some kid idolizes Zack Wylde, and point blank orders a Custom Shop Les Paul without trying their neck out and changing the spec to suit their needs, they're setting themselves up for failure if they're expecting to glide like Zack on a thick neck. It's a completely stupid idea to purchase a multi-thousand dollar instrument without knowing if you'll mesh with it or not and have the opportunity to find out.

I remember expressing interest in the Strandbergs coming out of the Washburn shop, and after doing some research I found out that Ede Wright @ Wright Tone Guitars in Florida had them not only in stock but some on order along with some great examples out of the Parker Guitars CS Line.

I didn't have to put in money
I didn't have to wait for a build a couple months down the line
I didn't have to deal with a return policy
And I was able to place my Strandberg order right then and there

All for the cost of a 4 hour trip with a buddy, a saturday, and some food.

If you want to argue that Kiesel's process is somehow better/more efficient then that be my guest. I'd much rather make a trip (or not depending on how far away a dealership is), and not have to put down wads of cash + a build time just to try something.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one else is talking about this, you are the only person discussing their return policy. You brought that point into the discussion as a
> 
> "Well, while you definitely cannot return a build with an Option 50 risk free. You could just order a build without an option 50 and you are now in the clear to return your instrument no questions asked within 10 days."
> 
> I don't know how many times I have to state this, this is a point you've held that no one contests.
> 
> 
> 
> Other builders don't need to state that you have a 10 day trial period. We had a thread on this same forum a few months ago about a guy who was unhappy with the figuring on his Flame Top and after speaking to his dealer, Jackson are rebuilding his instrument.
> 
> I'm actually pretty close with Pascal from Aristides, and we talk all the time without the topic being to spec a new instrument. And it's funny because he told me about 3 years ago that he received a request to redo a marble finish on one of their guitars because the result was not to the buyer's expectations. Pascal went ahead and asked his painter to redo it, despite it being *by nature *a one off process that always creates a different pattern on the instrument. He doesn't need to have a warranty or return policy written on their website to honor situations where customers are not happy with their guitars. And other brands seemingly do not see a need to do this either.
> 
> And you've returned 10 guitars at this point, maybe on the 11th build Jeff will question why your name has so many returns tagged along it and then barre you from ever ordering again. That's something Amazon and any other business does to people who read the fine print and decide that they can take advantage of it. It's also not a hassle free method to put down 1k+ just to try an instrument and decide if it's something up your alley before delving deeper into the specs and ordering exactly what you want. You still have to put down a large sum of money, wait through the build time, deal with returning it, and reordering the 2nd one.
> 
> Again, if you are ordering a custom instrument without trying one or doing research on it, you are setting yourself up for failure. Using the system as you seem to is not efficient, nor is it hassle free.
> 
> 
> 
> No one said that, major brands with custom shops frequently populate their dealership network with examples of said products and you're free to head to a dealership near you to try the instrument without all the little nuances of the Kiesel process.
> 
> And that's not gate keeping, it's advice in the best interest of the buyer. If some kid idolizes Zack Wylde, and point blank orders a Custom Shop Les Paul without trying their neck out and changing the spec to suit their needs, they're setting themselves up for failure if they're expecting to glide like Zack on a thick neck. It's a completely stupid idea to purchase a multi-thousand dollar instrument without knowing if you'll mesh with it or not and have the opportunity to find out.
> 
> I remember expressing interest in the Strandbergs coming out of the Washburn shop, and after doing some research I found out that Ede Wright @ Wright Tone Guitars in Florida had them not only in stock but some on order along with some great examples out of the Parker Guitars CS Line.
> 
> I Didn't have to put in money
> I didn't have to wait for a build a couple months
> I didn't have to deal with a return policy
> Was able to place my Strandberg order right then and there
> 
> All for the cost of a 4 hour trip with a buddy, a saturday, and some food.
> 
> If you want to argue that Kiesel's process is somehow better/more efficient than that be my guest. I'd much rather make a trip (or not depending on how far away a dealership is), and not have to put down wads of cash + a build time just to try something.



That's a lot of words to ultimately not answer only the questions I asked. And there were not that many.

Do other builders allow you to try for 10 days and send it back for a 100% refund if that's not what you like? Yes or no? I didn't ask you whether _you subjectively_ think they _need_ to. I asked you whether _objectively _anyone else offers that or not. I didn't ask you whether someone will redo your finish if it's not exactly how you imagined. I asked you if anyone else out there would give you a refund no question asked if you changed your mind or switched specs. Any thoughts on the Suhr example? My answer to that is no, and since you have had multiple opportunities to correct me (yet find other unrelated questions to bring up instead to move the goalposts with unrelated arguments), I'd assume you can't turn that answer into a "yes" either.
So Kiesel does offer that pretty _unique _possibility.

Then, the fact that _you_ don't think that's useful, that _you _prefer to take a 4 hour trip because you're lucky to live "near" a dealer (complaining about shipping, but acting as if your time and travel cost nothing, and as if everyone leaves near a dealer. What about Aristides lmao, did you drive to a dealer nearby?), the fact that _you _are OK to try guitars that are _kinda similar_ to what you would spec, but would never be the same considering the variety of options...you do you. But again, a lot of people see value in what Kiesel is offering, and yet I didn't say that it was for everyone. You're the one trying to argue that it's useless ("just go to a regular builder and try a model with different specs before ordering yours with no way to change your mind then") because of your subjective choices, and being pretty condescending to those who think otherwise in doing so.

You might not have seen the example I added :



Jonathan20022 said:


> And you saying "I swear I'm not gatekeeping" doesn't negate the fact that it's exactly what you do when you say "If you don't know what you want from a custom instrument you shouldn't be ordering one in the first place". It's like, literally what you're doing.
> What is that supposed to mean? Take my earlier example...instead of getting an Ibanez AZ prestige with a bland finish and ugly headstock, you can get a Kiesel Delos customized how you like, often of higher quality (but I'll settle on equivalent), with a finish you prefer, for less $$$. You can even try let's say fixed bridge HSS first and change that to trem/HH or any other change at no risk...and still get a full refund towards the AZ if it turns out Kiesel is not right for you. What's wrong with that?
> And you're saying, "nope that's not allowed, you have to know exactly what you want and have 4k$ to drop to be allowed a custom guitar". Why?



If you have any thoughts why that's bad, please let me know- I'd really like to hear. And no platitudes like "setting yourself up for failure". What is wrong with the above? Aristides aside, them being so consistent, how is that more risky than plonking 4K$ on a build to your specs when no local dealer will have something to your specs, when the ultimate piece of wood may not sound like you hoped, and when the other custom builders do not allow you to change your mind?

Your other arguments are pretty weak.

"You have to put 1k down though" => well not really, you pay 20% down to start the build. You charge the balance on your credit card once it ships, and if you send it back for a refund after 10 days, the refund will be there on your credit card before your next billing cycle. You know that, so why lie.
Kiesel is not going to let _me _return another guitar somehow? And you know that how? Because somehow Amazon sometimes blocks some buyers? The pinnacle of making stuff up...
"You have to wait for the build time of Kiesel" => they have guitars in stock that ship next day (since according to you, exact specs don't matter- just try roughly almost the same model, right?), and anyway their build times are the fastest in the industry, _by far_
_"it's stupid to order direct, you should go to a dealer and try the guitar first" =>_ I guess that sucks for Aristides, right? Also sucks for people who don't live near a dealer of every other brand and have to order online. I guess all the threads here and everywhere about "I can't try in person, so I have to order, which guitar will suit me best?" must be only posted by really stupid people...
Plus some more gatekeeping along the way...



Jonathan20022 said:


> It's a completely stupid idea to purchase a multi-thousand dollar instrument without knowing if you'll mesh with it or not and have the opportunity to find out.



This is not only gatekeeping, but it's also simply wrong because _you never know if you'll mesh with an instrument or not_. It might be down to the individual piece of woods or interactions between features, but you might always get an instrument that doesn't weigh, sound or play like you thought it would. Exactly the case of the Suihr I was describing. And there is no way to get the exact combination of specs (not even talking about wood variations) to try at any dealer. The moment you can customize more than a few specs, the combinations are just too high. So by your logic, nobody should order anything custom ever- or just stick with the specs they have tried exactly (at which point..why customize?) and pray the pieces of wood will be fine.
Of course, I'll leave Aristides out, because they're just the definition of consistent. But for Aristides, it would go against all your principles it seems since you have to put the money down first, can't really try ahead, and have to take a leap of faith and wait for the build...so I know I would recommend them, not sure why _you would_ under your own logic.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I'm not answering your question because no one contested it, and no one else is fighting tooth and nail for that point.

Do you have any proof that other builders won't attempt to resolve the issue you're having and or replace your instrument? And guess what, considering you generally spec an order through a *dealership* for every other brand I listed other than Aristides, you have the ability to choose which dealership offers a return policy/better return policy than another. If you want to go trace every dealer in the country and look at their return policies be my guest, you have way more invested in trying to prove that Kiesel has any value in their multi-step process to try an instrument if you don't live in fucking California 

Are you seriously saying that throwing down 1k+ (Or deposit only on a credit card), waiting a couple months, then ultimately returning the guitar and repeating the process to get what you want is MORE convenient that me traveling to a Strandberg dealership to make sure I like the Endurneck before I order it? You are drinking spoiled Kiesel Juice my friend, what an unreal level of delusion you are on.

Also not all dealerships are 4 hours away  if you care enough before dropping thousands of dollars a few hours on your weekend might be a worthy investment. Maybe not if you're a multi millionaire, but at that point I don't think you'd be on a niche guitar forum worrying about the value of an instrument in the first place 

That's also a strange quote, it says I said that but it's one of your posts.

That process is inherently bad because of how much of a fucking hassle it is to order a Kiesel sight unseen, and credit cards? Really?  Credit Cards aren't free money, and if you're smart you pay the balance monthly. Also do you understand what a hypothetical is?



> And you've returned 10 guitars at this point, *maybe *on the 11th build Jeff will question why your name has so many returns tagged along it and then barre you from ever ordering again.



Highlighted for you in case you missed it.



> "You have to wait for the build time of Kiesel" => they have guitars in stock that ship next day (since according to you, exact specs don't matter), and anyway their build times are the fastest in the industry, _by far_


_
Waitttttttt._

I thought the whole point of ordering a Kiesel was to get specs that are important to you to try?  The instocks surely won't provide that would they? What am I going to order a guitar with the thin neck option, return it. Get one with a sparkle finish, return it. Get one with a tremolo, return it. Just to see if I like those individual specs? 



> _"it's stupid to order direct, you should go to a dealer and try the guitar first" =>_ I guess that sucks for Aristides, right? Also sucks for people who don't live near a dealer of every other brand and have to order online. I guess all the threads here and everywhere about "I can't try in person, so I have to order, which guitar will suit me best?" must be only posted by really stupid people...



You're right, for Aristides it is pretty rough. And one of the great things about them is they actually held a program to ship a guitar around at the cost of shipping to demo and try an Aristides risk free in your own personal environment to trusted individuals in the community. Then offered a program for others where they would have a hold amount placed on a payment source to try an Aristides for a set amount of time, and that cost is then refunded to them once it is shipped back to their Aristides Representative.

The community is also very nice, and most people are willing to meet and let others try their guitars and experience them. Any brand's customers can do this, but yeah still less of a hassle to deal with than ordering a Kiesel and returning it. Sorry, hard disagree with you there buddy. Also Advice =/= Gatekeeping, what a stupid sentiment.


----------



## mbardu

I'll notice that you still haven't answered the simple yes/no question, the Ibanez example, or the Suhr example. Doesn't sound difficult if you had an ounce of sincerity, yet apparently it's literally impossible and you have to pivot again...



Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm not answering your question because no one contested it, and no one else is fighting tooth and nail for that point.
> Do you have any proof that other builders won't attempt to resolve the issue you're having and or replace your instrument? And guess what, considering you generally spec an order through a *dealership* for every other brand I listed other than Aristides, you have the ability to choose which dealership offers a return policy/better return policy than another. If you want to go trace every dealer in the country and look at their return policies be my guest, you have way more invested in trying to prove that Kiesel has any value in their multi-step process to try an instrument if you don't live in fucking California



I don't have any proof that "other builders won't attempt to resolve the issue" because I never pretended that other builders would not fix problems. I literally acknowledged that they do and praised them 2 posts ago lmao. Kiesel would also fix problems btw. I'm just saying Kiesel offers something else that's unique, and that nobody else offers. Regardless of what you say _now_, you were the one trying to diminish that or negate it by saying "nope, they're actually the only brand which have some options negating the no-questions-asked return policy" which was an obvious lie. They're the only builder to actually even offer such no-questions-asked return policy. So nice, you use a strawman against me and conveniently would like to quietly walk back what _you _said once proven wrong.



Jonathan20022 said:


> Are you seriously saying that throwing down 1k+ (Or deposit only on a credit card), waiting a couple months, then ultimately returning the guitar and repeating the process to get what you want is MORE convenient that me traveling to a Strandberg dealership to make sure I like the Endurneck before I order it? You are drinking spoiled Kiesel Juice my friend, what an unreal level of delusion you are on.



I answered about that already in the prior post so it's disingenuous to repeat the 1k+ figure. Besides, I never said Kiesel was more or less convenient (I mean I bet it actually is for people who don't leave within 4 hours of a Strandberg dealer- but I'll let everyone be the judge), you're the one trying to make generalities and find any way to put Kiesel down. You're the one deciding for everyone and saying "the only way to have a custom guitar is to do a road trip to a dealer that's somehow near you and to spend 4k$, otherwise you're dumb".



Jonathan20022 said:


> _Waitttttttt._
> 
> I thought the whole point of ordering a Kiesel was to get specs that are important to you to try?  The instocks surely won't provide that would they? What am I going to order a guitar with the thin neck option, return it. Get one with a sparkle finish, return it. Get one with a tremolo, return it. Just to see if I like those individual specs?



Nope I only spoke about "in-stock" because you said exact specs don't matter and you can just go to a dealer to try something that may be kinda close. Don't flip the whole situation on its head. If you now agree that exact specs are important, I'll totally and wholeheartedly agree with that. That was the second part of my answer if you hadn't cut it to try and make your point. However in that case you will _never _find an exact match for your specs for a custom at any dealer. Any builder worth something will just have so many combinations (neck shape, radius, scale length, frets, various woods for every part of the instrument, bridges, pickups, electronics), not even talking about anything cosmetic, that no dealer will stock 1000 customs just to cover _some _of the bases. So everything you advocate so strongly for will only ever be an approximation, _at best_. And Kiesel is pretty much the only option out there to try something _exact _risk free. But the guitars don't _make _you take a road trip, you have to organize that yourself, I guess that's a bummer.

The incredibly cool thing about the above though is that you can get the best of both worlds! Order an in stock first, have it shipped the next day, and you know what... just keep the guitar if you looove it. Maybe you will! Return it for your own build if you'd like to change a couple of things and actually want exact specs. Your build comes and somehow you don't like it? Return it, nobody will give you trouble. Don't like the model or find the guitar is no better than an Agile (lmao as if...but hey maybe that's what you'll find out- everyone can try) after getting an in-stock? Return it and don't look at the brand ever again. What have you lost? Pretty much the same as someone who ordered and returned something from Sweetwater. Wow that's rough I guess...
How can you try and say that's bad, when Sweetwater sells guitars to thousands of people (so I guess waiting a week and having to ship is a thing) and other custom shops won't allow you to change your mind, and will also take years to build (so I guess waiting for the few weeks for Kiesel is OK). Can't see any rationale except your hate for the brand due to your terrible past experience. In comparison, just imagine someone ordering a Private stock or ESP custom and it doesn't resonate or sound like they wanted? Whoops, I guess that was 2 years and 10k$, out of which I'll lose _at least_ 30% in a resale! But at least I didn't lose those 30$ return shipping amirite?



Jonathan20022 said:


> Also Advice =/= Gatekeeping, what a stupid sentiment.



"You shouldn't order a guitar if you don't know exactly what you're getting" is not only literally gatekeeping, it's also literally impossible as mentioned above- because, not even talking about variations from instrument to instrument, you'll never find your exact combinations of specs at dealers.


----------



## Spicypickles

If this thread was called “Anal, without lube” I would believe the butthurt.


----------



## Jonathan20022

> because you said exact specs don't matter and you can just go to a dealer to try something that may be kinda close.



Never said that, and the post is on the same page but you're too lazy to direct quote because you know not a single person has said your loaded quotes and your entire argument falls apart if you do quote them. You're essentially making up statements, or twisting other's words and making an argument against your head-canon of what people actually said. Congrats, you've somehow managed to steadily argue with yourself for 20+ pages 

I'm convinced you're a shill at this point. Investing this much time in doing what sales does for the business would be the saddest realization to come out of this. But it wouldn't be the first time Kiesel's come into SSO to try to hide/remove negative storytime about their experiences.

The level of mental gymnastics required to normalize some of this crap is mind boggling, Kiesel's process is crap and I don't want to deal with them because they CAN and HAVE sent flawed instruments to customers. Then they throw a fit when they're called out on it, I remember looking at SSO and thinking the same way "What's with all the hate? My Kiesels are fantastic!" and I won't pretend I didn't partake in the discussions back then. But I *sincerely* wish you the best and hope all the work you're putting in is receiving a fair wage to compensate, cause if you're not then shame on Jeff!

There actually is someone that does offer a similar return policy actually, Rondo Music aka Agile Guitars! No questions asked


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> I feel like I'm yelling into the void here.
> 
> Guys this is a shitposting thread filled with people that aren't ever going to buy a kiesel.
> 
> It's like if you went to a good steak house. like a Morton's are something.
> 
> they serve a pretty good steak.
> 
> but what happens is that the waiter comes and takes a giant shit right next to your seat while you're eating.
> 
> is the steak still good? probably.
> 
> but get this some people don't like the possibility that they might get shit on.
> 
> some people will gladly ask for another heat steamer as long as the steak is good.
> 
> That's ok. we can all get along. which is why there are 2 fucking threads about kiesel.



Great, now my appetite's as low as my desire to order a Kiesel.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Never said that, and the post is on the same page but you're too lazy to direct quote because you know not a single person has said your loaded quotes and your entire argument falls apart if you do quote them. You're essentially making up statements, or twisting other's words and making an argument against your head-canon of what people actually said. Congrats, you've somehow managed to steadily argue with yourself for 20+ pages
> 
> I'm convinced you're a shill at this point. Investing this much time in doing what sales does for the business would be the saddest realization to come out of this. But it wouldn't be the first time Kiesel's come into SSO to try to hide/remove negative storytime about their experiences.
> 
> The level of mental gymnastics required to normalize some of this crap is mind boggling, Kiesel's process is crap and I don't want to deal with them because they CAN and HAVE sent flawed instruments to customers. Then they throw a fit when they're called out on it, I remember looking at SSO and thinking the same way "What's with all the hate? My Kiesels are fantastic!" and I won't pretend I didn't partake in the discussions back then. But I *sincerely* wish you the best and hope all the work you're putting in is receiving a fair wage to compensate, cause if you're not then shame on Jeff!
> 
> There actually is someone that does offer a similar return policy actually, Rondo Music aka Agile Guitars! No questions asked



Oh inventing quotes, like you pretending I said other custom builders would not support their instruments? Like this? Because I'm still waiting on you to quote where I said that...on the same page I was singing praise of people like Suhr or Aristides btw. Good luck!

Fine I'll quote you, again, like I quoted you before many times... You act like I haven't done that, nice deflection! You must not have seen the previous pages I guess  . Each time I do that btw, your reaction is to 1-walk back your points or 2-ignore my replies or 3-pivot to an unrelated argument trying to get a "gotcha", so I don't know why I keep trying but whatever.



Jonathan20022 said:


> Again, if you are ordering a custom instrument without trying one or doing research on it, you are setting yourself up for failure. Using the system as you seem to is not efficient, nor is it hassle free.
> 
> No one said that, major brands with custom shops frequently populate their dealership network with examples of said products and you're free to head to a dealership near you to try the instrument without all the little nuances of the Kiesel process.
> 
> And that's not gate keeping, it's advice in the best interest of the buyer. If some kid idolizes Zack Wylde, and point blank orders a Custom Shop Les Paul without trying their neck out and changing the spec to suit their needs, they're setting themselves up for failure if they're expecting to glide like Zack on a thick neck. It's a completely stupid idea to purchase a multi-thousand dollar instrument without knowing if you'll mesh with it or not and have the opportunity to find out.
> 
> I remember expressing interest in the Strandbergs coming out of the Washburn shop, and after doing some research I found out that Ede Wright @ Wright Tone Guitars in Florida had them not only in stock but some on order along with some great examples out of the Parker Guitars CS Line.
> 
> I Didn't have to put in money
> I didn't have to wait for a build a couple months
> I didn't have to deal with a return policy
> Was able to place my Strandberg order right then and there
> 
> All for the cost of a 4 hour trip with a buddy, a saturday, and some food.



Your entire message (that's just one example) is "the Kiesel process is dumb, the right way to do it is to drive to a dealer, and try a guitar, that's maybe kinda similar to what you would order (although far, far from exact specs), and then order one for yourself according to your specs" as if you were the single source of truth or an authority on guitar choices for all people. Or is that not what this means? Because if not, please enlighten us. This is rhetorical by the way you do not have to actually answer that part since you already reiterated 100% the same thing above with your "their process is crap". Or do I have to use the quote feature otherwise it doesn't count?



Jonathan20022 said:


> Kiesel's process is crap



There, happy? Or are you going to nitpick that I used the word "dumb" while you used the word "crap" so you didn't _ackchyually _say that  .

What about your authoritative statements such as "that's not the right way to order a guitar! This is the right way! do a roadtrip!". Well gosh, who made you the chief-of-ordering-guitars-for-everyone ? To which I simply offered "_no, actually the Kiesel process has a lot of advantages and could actually be better for many people, look at those examples. Plus you know, maybe let people decide for themselves instead of you deciding what's allowed and what's not_" and replied point by point to all your made up falsehoods and self contradictions (***_cough***Aristides cough***_). You still haven't reacted to _any _of the examples I quoted btw.

And for what? You don't reply on even a single point, even a simple yes/no question, and instead here go back to the same exact strawman as always saying "_The level of mental gymnastics required to normalize some of this crap_", which nobody...ever...did. Nobody-ever-tried to normalize _any _of the actual shitty things like shitty customer service from Kiesel. And it's not because their customer service is shitty at times that suddenly we have to make up more and more crap out of thin air. I even 100% acknowledge that your experience with them has been shitty, and I sympathize with that. But now because you've been wronged, you can't even being to comprehend that people might be happy with Kiesel, and that their process may be pretty good in a lot of situations? Is that some sort of revenge?

PS: it's cute trying to say "please quote me exactly" and try to nitpick to death, but you know the saying? People in glass houses? The way you have deformed other's people's points, from my replies to Kiesel's posted "option 50" policy that you twisted like _crazy_- you shouldn't really try to parade around as the guardian of truth and honesty. The way you walk back every single one of your statements that are proven wrong, just try to sweep under the rug the things that just plain don't make sense ("I never said _that_"), constantly pivot, never answer a single simple question (I have the same simple yes/no question, you're still free to answer you have an ounce of good faith)....._inventing quotes_ lmao. And as expected, now you, just like all the others, when out of arguments, you just go back to the usual retort of "hUr DuR uR a ShIlL". For the purposes of having an actual discussion, you can answer a simple yes/no question and/or a simple example, or you can seriously get off of your high horse.


----------



## Jonathan20022

That's the fantastic part, you don't have to keep trying. You've convinced no one here that Kiesel's process is a good thing. Open your mind and realize there's a better way to do it instead of shilling day and night that Kiesel's way is great! It's actually not!

I kept asking you to quote me, because you have this nasty habit of rewording someone's reply to make them sound somehow worse. You're a disingenuous liar, and seeing you do things like below is doing you no favors.

For example:





I think it's a *better* way to do it, and that's what we call an opinion. You can disagree with it all you'd like, and no one will bother you, I just ask that you don't lie about what I said since you're maliciously misquoting everyone in this thread who disagrees with you. Pretending like I'm speaking for other people other than myself is a hilarious way to project considering your steadfast belief that Kiesel's model holds advantages when it doesn't.



mbardu said:


> Nobody-ever-tried to normalize _any _of the shitty customer service from Kiesel.



My whole post was about the how shit the process of trying a Kiesel is vs just going to any guitar store/dealer that has what you want in stock. Did you even read it?

This post: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-178#post-5144190

Says nothing about customer service  get some sleep bro.



> The way you have deformed other's people's points, or things like Kiesel's posted "option 50" policy that you twisted like _crazy_- you shouldn't really try to parade around as the guardian of truth and honesty.



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-172#post-5143356

That's a hard yikes, apparently quoting and linking their policy then "summarizing" it isn't a very nice thing to do  look inward my friend.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> That's the fantastic part, you don't have to keep trying. You've convinced no one here that Kiesel's process is a good thing. Open your mind and realize there's a better way to do it instead of shilling day and night that Kiesel's way is great! It's actually not!



Wow, while you certainly have convinced them of the opposite through your careful and argumented rebuttal of the cases where it could indeed be pretty good. Wait no, this never happened because you don't have even the start of an argument against those examples. Whoopsies I guess, better pivot to something unrelated to the question at hand! Cuuuueeee......



Jonathan20022 said:


> I kept asking you to quote me, because you have this nasty habit of rewording someone's reply to make them sound somehow worse. You're a disingenuous liar, and seeing you do things like below is doing you no favors.
> 
> For example:
> View attachment 81377
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's a *better* way to do it, and that's what we call an opinion. You can disagree with it all you'd like, and no one will bother you, I just ask that you don't lie about what I said since you're maliciously misquoting everyone in this thread who disagrees with you. Pretending like I'm speaking for other people other than just stating my own opinion is a hilarious way to project considering your steadfast belief that Kiesel's model holds advantages when it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> My whole post was about the how shit the process of trying a Kiesel is vs just going to any guitar store/dealer that has what you want in stock. Did you even read it?
> 
> This post: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-178#post-5144190
> 
> Says nothing about customer service  get some sleep bro.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-172#post-5143356
> 
> That's a hard yikes, apparently quoting and linking their policy then "summarizing" it isn't a very nice thing to do  look inward my friend.



Again, that's _still _a lot of words to _still _not reply to a single yes/no answer or a simple example!
Deflections deflections deflections while it would be so simple to show, again, even an ounce of good faith with a single answer.
Whether you like it or not, the simple fact that you are unable to simply answer a simple "does Kiesel offer that unique advantage, yes or no?" (which doesn't mean they are perfect, which doesn't mean they are better, it's just a single fact)- simply show that you have no objectivity whatsoever. While some people can see both sides of the coin and talk about both the pros and cons of Kiesel (I'll always be first to criticize Jeff's outbursts for example), you are just so far gone that you cannot.

Now- it's clear you are now actually trying to feign some sort of nuance and walk back your previous posts, _as usual _(I didn't _ackchyually _say my way was the right away...just kinda better or something and the others are crap maybe but also maybe not) as if this was not _extreme _nitpicking. But yet, when you keep saying "Kiesel's model doesn't old any advantages", or "Kiesel process is crap" or "Kiesel process is stupid" or "Kiesel process is shit" (your words, not mine, stop playing the "I didn't say that card", everyone can read), then you are literally trying to speak with authority, not stating an opinion. On my end, I specifically did not try to pretend the Kiesel process was better in absolute terms and in all cases, acknowledging many times that it was not for everyone. I just showed a number of examples where it could be better and you are yet to offer a single reply to any of those examples. Your only reply is "their process is crap". How argumented! Nothing about people who cannot drive to a dealer. Nothing about dealer never having the same specs you'd want to order. Nothing about a built-to-specs instruments still possibly not being one you jive with and the benefit of a return & refund then. Nope, jut "Kiesel process is shit". Truly the epitome of argumented logic.

And again, kettle pot, and rocks in glass houses...where did I say you're speaking for other people exactly? and which other people? Can you quote? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

There's no point adding those links back. I did read your posts and answer point by point. it's there for all to see. Way more than you can pretend on your end. When someone asks you simple questions such as "can we factually agree on that point, yes or no" to try and advance the discussion on concrete terms and facts rather than feelings ("no, they're just crap" and you're trying to appear to be the voice of reason lmao) and your attitude is to never answer and instead reply "I don't feel this point makes me looks good, so I'll ignore the question and answer another one instead"...it doesn't really shine a positive light on your argument I'm afraid. Oh are you going to say that's made up again? Well if you insist on links, that's verbatim what's happening here as a start: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-178#post-5144176 . Simple question => deflection into a totally unrelated point instead of answering. Nice.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I've put enough effort into replying to you, feel free to refer to anything I've said in the recent discussion for answers to you simple questions.  Also excellent showcase of false equivalence, no amount of saying so will make my opinions anything less or more than opinions!

Here's one for the road, you're projecting really hard with your accusations. Enjoy convincing the rest of the gang!


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I've put enough effort into replying to you, feel free to refer to anything I've said in the recent discussion for answers to you simple questions.  Also excellent showcase of false equivalence, no amount of saying so will make my opinions anything less or more than opinions!
> 
> Here's one for the road, you're projecting really hard with your accusations. Enjoy convincing the rest of the gang!



Still soooo hard to give a simple yes/no answer, to a _single _question wow!
Such good faith.

Anyway, after seeing you veering into the "I don't have any arguments left so you must be a shill", we knew it was only a matter of time before the inevitable "I have no arguments left so I'll just stop pretending". Don't worry about the rest of the gang. Since your main argument is "Kiesel is shit", you'll surely get all the likes here. I'll still try to correct lies here and there on my end when they pop up though.

Have a good one!


----------



## Edika

At this point I don't thing this constant back and forth reiterating the same difference of opinions is getting anywhere. Great for forum traffic but not so much substance. 

I will say though that personally, if a new guitar I buy come with no structural flaws and minimal cosmetic imperfection that sounds good, 10 days are not enough to decide if I like it or not. Plus some times it might be pickups that I end up not liking etc etc. Any new instrument the honeymoon period lasts more than that and if it's something with figured woods and awesome colours then it might take longer.

What I'm interested is that the manufacturer will stand by it's warranty on the long haul If something is truly functionally wrong that might develop a bit over the 10 days period like fretboard cracking in a couple of months time or frets coming loose in 6 months time or neck warping in a years time. Sure climate changes and how each individual cares for the instrument does play a big role but I find those more important issues. Plus if the builder messes up specs he should take the guitar back no questions asked and no "option 50", or whatever you want to call non returnable features, should matter. Or be belittled by customer representatives and the owner of the company.


----------



## xzacx

Jonathan20022 said:


> ]And guess what, considering you generally spec an order through a *dealership* for every other brand I listed other than Aristides



You're obviously forgetting about Red Dragon.


----------



## StevenC

Remember when this company was called Carvin and they didn't yell at customers?


----------



## Thaeon

If you're a capitalist and go to a socialist convention to sell capitalism, what is the expected result? That you'll skip through a flowered meadow with each other, hand in hand? Of course not. Anyone coming into this thread to post pro-Kiesel sentiment should be expecting to be met with strong resistance. This is a thread for people to air legitimate grievances that have ruined a person's relationship with that brand, to caution others, and to shit post. If you don't like this thread, don't participate. Its easy, and will remove stress from your life. But don't come in here to sling the opposite opinion and expect a warm welcome. Its also disrespectful of the people in here with legitimate experiences to come in and tell them they are wrong for feeling the way they do. There's a time and place for everything. This thread is not the place to defend Kiesel. Take it to one of the pro kiesel threads. Take it to the general kiesel thread. Just stop being stubborn about it here. Please don't reply, I'm not responding. If someone tries to drag me back into the Kiesel love thing here, I'm just going to ignore them. Just don't. Its asinine, and refusing to see a perspective other than your own is not healthy. You don't have to agree. And people don't have to agree with you in order to understand you. I'm moving on. You should too. Let the thread be what it is.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> _*Doesn't sound difficult if you had an ounce of sincerity*_, yet apparently it's literally impossible and you have to pivot again...



The old tired ploy to attack a person’s character instead of the argument. What a clown.


----------



## chipchappy

mbarsomething said:


> Still soooo hard to give a simple yes/no answer, to a _single _question wow!
> Such good faith.
> 
> Anyway, after seeing you veering into the "I don't have any arguments left so you must be a shill", we knew it was only a matter of time before the inevitable "I have no arguments left so I'll just stop pretending". Don't worry about the rest of the gang. Since your main argument is "Kiesel is shit", you'll surely get all the likes here. I'll still try to correct lies here and there on my end when they pop up though.
> 
> Have a good one!



ok so 10$ an hour? 15$? No way is Jeff paying you 20$... thats way too much. Regardless, with the amount of time you've put in you'll be a rich person!


----------



## narad

I feel like a couple people don't understand that we have a "mostly talk good things about Kiesel" thread, and a "mostly talk shit about Kiesel" thread, so we can support communities of people that both like Kiesel and like to hate on Kiesel. So if those people continue trying to make this thread the "Kiesel is great" thread, we should start dumping our 120 pages of Kiesel shit-talking and memes into the "The Carvin / Kiesel thread". An eye for an eye.


----------



## mbardu

As a foreword, I have nothing against you , and I just think that like most people, some sort of blind hate against Kiesel make you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I'll notice that you have not made an attempt to reply on anything factual in the earlier conversation when I spoke with you in good faith, and now after mischaracterizing pretty much everything I said, you're instead just saying "don't reply" as if to have the final word? Maybe you think that this will looks like someone who's winning an argument, but as usual I'll let everyone be the judge. 
OK, now if _you _don't want to read a reply, I guess you'll skip and that's OK. We can just imagine that the "you" moving forward is a generic one that includes you, or the other people with same arguments.



Thaeon said:


> If you're a capitalist and go to a socialist convention to sell capitalism, what is the expected result? That you'll skip through a flowered meadow with each other, hand in hand? Of course not. Anyone coming into this thread to post pro-Kiesel sentiment should be expecting to be met with strong resistance. This is a thread for people to air legitimate grievances that have ruined a person's relationship with that brand, to caution others, and to shit post.



"Resistance" is fine (although what does that even mean...), discussion is fine too; people lying and burying collective heads in the sand while misleading others is less fine in my book. I don't see who benefits from that. Just try to get that out of your head, I am not here to post "pro-Kiesel sentiment". I have acknowledged _all _issues discussed in this thread, posted _my own issues_, I'm usually among the first if not _the _first to point out the antics of the owner, and I'll shitpost too. But the world is not all black or all white. So when some people spew lies, I'm free to reply on those lies. Making up new stuff out of thin air actually kinda dilutes the very real negative experiences of some .

Kiesel has certainly enough issues with their customer service that you don't need to invent new things just to justify not liking them. They are not the best at everything that they do. I 100% agree they're not for everyone and it's fine if the owner turns you off of the brand too. It does not mean that it's fair game to add extra lies to the mix, and mislead people for whom Kiesel may be a pretty good option. For example, I suspect the reason why nobody has taken me up on my Ibanez AZ or other examples is that there is probably very little to rebut there. But it doesn't mean there aren't tons of other cases where Kiesel is certainly not the right option- and where I would instead recommend, say an Aristides or Suhr under different circumstances. There is such a thing as nuance. 



Thaeon said:


> If you don't like this thread, don't participate. Its easy, and will remove stress from your life. But don't come in here to sling the opposite opinion and expect a warm welcome. Its also disrespectful of the people in here with legitimate experiences to come in and tell them they are wrong for feeling the way they do. There's a time and place for everything. This thread is not the place to defend Kiesel. Take it to one of the pro kiesel threads. Take it to the general kiesel thread. Just stop being stubborn about it here. Please don't reply, I'm not responding. If someone tries to drag me back into the Kiesel love thing here, I'm just going to ignore them. Just don't. Its asinine, and refusing to see a perspective other than your own is not healthy. You don't have to agree. And people don't have to agree with you in order to understand you. I'm moving on. You should too. Let the thread be what it is.



Thank you for the concern but this thread doesn't stress me  
I will never be disrespectful either against people with legitimate issue and have in fact acknowledged and sympathized with most if not all. Like I'll never be disrespectful to anyone who legitimately wants to discuss. I doubt anyone could find a single example of that, and that's even after being insulted quite a bit. 

As for you, nobody is going to try and force you into the Kiesel love thing. It's perfectly fine to hate them and to consider that you've seen enough.
Unlike some people who try to be authorities, or are so far gone in their hate that they cannot even answer a single factual yes/no question, i am not trying to be an authority either. I'll always, always recommend people make up their own mind instead of taking my word, or the "haters'" word for anything.

At the end of the day, Kiesel is far from perfect. They have positives. If you order something returnable, you have pretty much 0 risk of issues, because you will never run into any of the complaints we read here, you will never speak to Jeff, and you can try a million options for the price of return shipping. Find the quality is worse than Agile (lmao, as if...)? At least you found out on your terms, and made up your own mind instead of taking the opinion of someone else on the internet. And you can do that with something to your specs - which they are the only ones to offer, and you may have lost all of 30$. Don't even like that unique possibility? That's fine, nobody is forcing your hand. No reason to deny it exists or that many people like the possibility though 

Now, if you are interested in picking from their off-menu non returnable stuff, there is certainly going to be a non-zero risk, and they have certainly treated some people extremely poorly in the past for returns or service. We can discuss those all day. But you know what, unlike haters with a one-way mind, I can see both sides of the coin. For those cases, I actually will not recommend Kiesel, or if I do it's going to be with caution and caveats. Ordering anything non-returnable from _anyone _is a gamble by the way (which means the entire catalog of options for other builders, not just 5%), but even more so with Kiesel- agreed. And very custom stuff is just not their strong suit.

If those 2 very separate cases means _to you_ that you don't want to even consider the risk-free possibility and anyway, you hate the brand unconditionally, that's perfectly fine. Again, it's your call. If the fact that you hate the brand means that everyone else also has to hate the brand, and should not be allowed to even try the risk-free possibility, then IMO that's taking it too far- but as usual everyone is free to make up their own mind.


----------



## Thaeon

I give up. You ask them to not respond and they do anyway. I don't hate Kiesel. I actually LIKE the guitars. All of the ones I owned were flawless. I'm not encouraging others to hate Kiesel. I'm stating my opinion based on the unacceptable behavior of an individual. Everyone else is free to act as the like in regards to the brand. 

As to respect... Acting contrary to expressed wishes is the definition of disrespect. I set a boundary and it was not respected. Ignored.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> The old tired ploy to attack a person’s character instead of the argument. What a clown.


Hey Jeff! how are you? If you have any rebuttal to anything at all I replied to you the last time we exchanged, I'm still all ears.
If not, pointing out one line of context (John refusing to answer a simple question) plus doing so above _while ignoring the numerous unproven attacks he made on me_, that just doesn't really show a ton of unbiased objectivity.



chipchappy said:


> ok so 10$ an hour? 15$? No way is Jeff paying you 20$... thats way too much. Regardless, with the amount of time you've put in you'll be a rich person!



Wow I'll give you the trophy for originality! Who would have thought to accuse me of a troll.
Plus effort, must have been quite tricky to come up with that, whereas answering an anything of substance would be so easy in comparison.



narad said:


> I feel like a couple people don't understand that we have a "mostly talk good things about Kiesel" thread, and a "mostly talk shit about Kiesel" thread, so we can support communities of people that both like Kiesel and like to hate on Kiesel. So if those people continue trying to make this thread the "Kiesel is great" thread, we should start dumping our 120 pages of Kiesel shit-talking and memes into the "The Carvin / Kiesel thread". An eye for an eye.



Do you really need a safe space?
It's not because I take out lies and say that Kiesel is not a bad option for some people in some cases that I'm making it a "Kiesel is great thread". There is such a thing as nuance. I don't doubt there will be a new customer service drama soon and I'll denounce it with the same energy that I denounce the lies that pop up.

You're welcome in any other thread too.
If someone says a lie here, I'll say it's a lie. If someone says a lie there, I'll say it's a lie. If someone has a legit complaint and posts it in the other thread, I don't see the issue. Don't know why you see it as "dumping" or "an eye for an eye". Did I hurt you by replying to lies or made up stuff?


----------



## chipchappy

dubarm said:


> Wow I'll give you the trophy for originality! Who would have thought to accuse me of a troll.
> Plus effort, must have been quite tricky to come up with that, whereas answering an anything of substance would be so easy in comparison.



Naw bruh it took me like 5 seconds, I dont put any thought in replying to you* intentionally! *

I find Kiesels as mildly average for USA made geets even on a good day so i dont even get the people that *DO* like them in spite of their bro-hard owner with a convenient anxiety disorder. 

I've talked to several friends who thought about buying one and referred them to this thread and they went somewhere else. Is that enough substance for you man?


----------



## Jonathan20022

Thaeon said:


> As to respect... Acting contrary to expressed wishes is the definition of disrespect. I set a boundary and it was not respected. Ignored.






Well put my man.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Do you really need a safe space?
> It's not because I take out lies and say that Kiesel is not a bad option for some people in some cases that I'm making it a "Kiesel is great thread". There is such a thing as nuance. I don't doubt there will be a new customer service drama soon and I'll denounce it with the same energy that I denounce the lies that pop up.
> 
> You're welcome in any other thread too.
> If someone says a lie here, I'll say it's a lie. If someone says a lie there, I'll say it's a lie. If someone has a legit complaint and posts it in the other thread, I don't see the issue. Don't know why you see it as "dumping" or "an eye for an eye". Did I hurt you by replying to lies or made up stuff?



I don't know why you're the arbiter of what is a valid Kiesel complaint, which seems to be the role you're inserting yourself into. Everyone post your situation, and mbardu will tell you if you have a legit greivance.

As to a safe space... I like my email inbox. In my email there is a "promotions" folder, so when I check my mail, I don't have to sift through all the bullshit promotions. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to find the things I actually check my email for. In this thread, it's at the point where you're just spamming your opinion, and there's no way to sort you out. I would have liked to hear your opinion *once*, but you're not dropping any crazy truth bombs -- it's just a whole lot of the same text repeated, mucking up the whole thread. It's a real nuisance. 

Weirdly I don't think I've ever seen such a runaway case of posting where like 50% of the text posted in 20 pages is from a single person. I guess in non-covid times people had jobs and things to do that naturally prohibited this kind of behavior.


----------



## mbardu

Thaeon said:


> I give up. You ask them to not respond and they do anyway. I don't hate Kiesel. I actually LIKE the guitars. All of the ones I owned were flawless. I'm not encouraging others to hate Kiesel. I'm stating my opinion based on the unacceptable behavior of an individual. Everyone else is free to act as the like in regards to the brand.
> 
> As to respect... Acting contrary to expressed wishes is the definition of disrespect. I set a boundary and it was not respected. Ignored.



"Acting contrary to expressed wishes is the definition of disrespect", cool, then I've been so disrespected by you! My wish was for you to answer my questions honestly instead of grossly misrepresenting what I said (adding a few choice inventions along the way on the previous page btw) so I guess I should complain that you disrespected me first? Coming from someone who literally attacked _the character of a whole human being_ (your words, not mine) a couple of pages ago because of _a difference of opinion on a guitar forum_, that shtick about respect sure is rich.

Everyone must also realize that the "_I'm going to shout an unargumented list of grievances that I hope will be a gotcha then say don't reply and close my ears_" is basically 2nd grade level of argumentation, right? I feel like everyone has to realize that. No matter though, everyone, you included is free to not read my posts.

For a group that accuses the few people not shitting on Kiesel to be shilling snowflakes, there are certainly a lot of people who feign shock because of polite lines in a public forum ("oh nooo my boundary were not respected") or are upset that some lies don't just remain unanswered ("oh no, please go to another thread with your arguments I don't have an answer to").

It's funny how we now care about respect while I didn't insult anyone and am only looking for honest answers, yet nobody cares who attacks me and calls me a stupid shill. I mean, I don't care much, it's funny more than anything. Such double standards though. Wow.



chipchappy said:


> I find Kiesels as mildly average for USA made geets even on a good day so i dont even get the people that *DO* like them in spite of their bro-hard owner with a convenient anxiety disorder.
> 
> I've talked to several friends who thought about buying one and referred them to this thread and they went somewhere else. Is that enough substance for you man?



That's perfectly fine if that's your opinion to be honest. If you have tried and don't like, at least you gave it a shot instead of making stuff up. And that's also the good thing...you can pretty much try at no risk. For your friends, I find it a bit strange to make this type of decisions based on internet anecdotes (I mean...you can _clearly _see that some places online are....not the most unbiased) on something as variable as a custom guitar, especially when you have a no risk option to try... but at the end of the day that's still absolutely 100% OK too!


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I don't know why you're the arbiter of what is a valid Kiesel complaint, which seems to be the role you're inserting yourself into. Everyone post your situation, and mbardu will tell you if you have a legit greivance.
> 
> As to a safe space... I like my email inbox. In my email there is a "promotions" folder, so when I check my mail, I don't have to sift through all the bullshit promotions. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to find the things I actually check my email for. In this thread, it's at the point where you're just spamming your opinion, and there's no way to sort you out. I would have liked to hear your opinion *once*, but you're not dropping any crazy truth bombs -- it's just a whole lot of the same text repeated, mucking up the whole thread. It's a real nuisance.
> 
> Weirdly I don't think I've ever seen such a runaway case of posting where like 50% of the text posted in 20 pages is from a single person. I guess in non-covid times people had jobs and things to do that naturally prohibited this kind of behavior.



I don't pretend to be the arbiter of valid complaints TBH.
Can you point me to where i did anything even close to that? I actually believe _all _customer service complaints are valid in this thread- but even that is ultimately just my opinion.

I never pretended to hold absolute truth either on subjective things either (unlike _some others_ here). There is just no such thing. Which is why I always say that everyone can make up their own opinion instead of believing me or the people to reply to.

When there are _facts _though (like "order something customized from Kiesel, skip _maybe 5%_ of their options, and you have a 0 risk, 0 hassle possibilty- that's something that nobody else offers") I have no issue presenting that as a fact. On the previous pages, there are some people so deep in the Kiesel hate that even acknowledging a single fact is impossible.

PS: I only replied on a _very limited number of points_ in that thread, but the reason it explodes into so many posts is because everyone replies back as well. You do too! Plus new joiners accusing me of shilling. Or making stuff up I didn't say ("oh nooes, he's defending customer service" etc). Or saying I somehow pretend to be "_the arbiter of valid complaints_". Each time I can spend the 3 minutes to correct the record, I'm already at the computer 12 hours a day for work anyway. And who knows, maybe I'll actually get an actual argumented reply along the way. Sorry if that hurts your metaphorical inbox. You would set the record straight too if it were you.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> I don't pretend to be the arbiter of valid complaints TBH.
> Can you point me to that? I actually believe _all _customer service complaints are valid in this thread- but even that is ultimately just my opinion.



I mean, looking back 30 seconds above this post is sort of that thing?



mbardu said:


> *That's perfectly fine to be honest. *If you have tried and don't like, at least you gave it a shot instead of making stuff up.



I don't know, I'm pretty much out on this one, there's no point in anyone posting a reply in this thread anymore. Someone let me know the next time Jeff says something ridiculous or a customer gets another guitar in the wrong finish and maybe we can make a new thread.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I mean, looking back 30 seconds above this post is sort of that thing?



I really don't see what you are talking about but if that's you wanted I'll at least make that crystal clear for you!
_I do not pretend to be the arbiter of valid customer service complaints_.

In my humble opinion, most customer service complaints are perfectly valid, and anyway _all _customer service complaint should be considered (and that's talking beyond the Kiesel model)... But even that, again is _just my opinion_.

Again, for the last million posts or so, I never even tried to defend the Kiesel customer service issues we've all seen(why would I? all the examples here are indefensible and I'd be the first to say they did a terrible job in those instances), so not sure why that's relevant but there- hopefully that much is now clear if it was your problem.


----------



## prlgmnr

mbardu said:


> I don't pretend to be the arbiter of valid complaints TBH.
> Can you point me to where i did anything even close to that?



None stop for what feels like the last 15 years or so?


----------



## mbardu

prlgmnr said:


> None stop for what feels like the last 15 years or so?



Sorry- English is not my native language, but I feel like you must have forgotten to type some things in your sentence.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> Hey Jeff! how are you? If you have any rebuttal to anything at all I replied to you the last time we exchanged, I'm still all ears.
> If not, pointing out one line of context (John refusing to answer a simple question) plus doing so above _while ignoring the numerous unproven attacks he made on me_, that just doesn't really show a ton of unbiased objectivity.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow I'll give you the trophy for originality! Who would have thought to accuse me of a troll.
> Plus effort, must have been quite tricky to come up with that, whereas answering an anything of substance would be so easy in comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really need a safe space?
> It's not because I take out lies and say that Kiesel is not a bad option for some people in some cases that I'm making it a "Kiesel is great thread". There is such a thing as nuance. I don't doubt there will be a new customer service drama soon and I'll denounce it with the same energy that I denounce the lies that pop up.
> 
> You're welcome in any other thread too.
> If someone says a lie here, I'll say it's a lie. If someone says a lie there, I'll say it's a lie. If someone has a legit complaint and posts it in the other thread, I don't see the issue. Don't know why you see it as "dumping" or "an eye for an eye". Did I hurt you by replying to lies or made up stuff?



Still have a severe reading disability as well, I see. For someone who types a lot, you don’t read very closely. John has already said all that’s necessary. But please; enjoy your white knighting in a Kiesel criticism thread.


----------



## chipchappy

mbardu said:


> For your friends, I find it a bit strange to make this type of decisions based on internet anecdotes (I mean...you can _clearly _see that some places online are....not the most unbiased) on something as variable as a custom guitar, especially when you have a no risk option to try... but at the end of the day that's still absolutely 100% OK too!



But the thing is they read it and saw the several reports of Jeff/the company doing shady and inappropriate things and decided that was enough for them to put their money elsewhere. They don't care about a risk free trial, they don't want to even go that far with a company that has fuckups like this, and thats where we differ - we'll never agree, but you're digging your heels in and arguing w/ everyone after coming into a thread that, while sure there's a lot of noise, also contains valid issues that people have experienced and playing devils advocate, which is fine, but you can't be surprised that a lot of people aren't interested in your defense after all this time. That's why I've been poking fun at you that you're paid by Kiesel, because if this doesn't benefit you then why keep at it man? Why do you care what we think? You don't have to answer that, I'm just trying to be real with you.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> Still have a severe reading disability as well, I see. For someone who types a lot, you don’t read very closely. John has already said all that’s necessary. But please; enjoy your white knighting in a Kiesel criticism thread.



How can you seriously come in to try and argue "please keep it civil", and then jump right into "Still have a severe reading disability" as if it's a civil explanation or any argument for that matter? With not an actual point in sight- just another attack. Seriously...



chipchappy said:


> But the thing is they read it and saw the several reports of Jeff/the company doing shady and inappropriate things and decided that was enough for them to put their money elsewhere. They don't care about a risk free trial, they don't want to even go that far with a company that has fuckups like this, and thats where we differ - we'll never agree, but you're digging your heels in and arguing w/ everyone after coming into a thread that, while sure there's a lot of noise, also contains valid issues that people have experienced and playing devils advocate, which is fine, but you can't be surprised that a lot of people aren't interested in your defense after all this time. That's why I've been poking fun at you that you're paid by Kiesel, because if this doesn't benefit you then why keep at it man? Why do you care what we think? You don't have to answer that, I'm just trying to be real with you.



Again, if you actually tried the guitars and didn't like them...that's totally fine. Maybe you were unlucky with what you got, maybe that didn't click for you, maybe whatever. And if your friends don't want to try something and prefer to look at the online opinions, as mentioned that's their call too. 100% OK. Who said otherwise? And even though you called me a shill, at least you are not here trying to say argue that "no, it's impossible to order risk free from Kiesel" or other nonsense.

DO you care what I think? Do other posters care what other posters think? I doubt so, yet we're all posting. You are posting, aren't you. Like even to rehash things that have been said already (I mean, _again_, nobody denied any of the serious customer service issues). At the end of the day, it's just a guitar discussion forum and we're all discussing, not sure why you're making it such a big deal. I read, I see a lie, I reply that it's a lie, people make a strawman against me I reply against the strawman, people insult me or accuse me of being a shill, I correct the record etc etc etc. Nothing more than that.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> That's perfectly fine if that's your opinion to be honest. If you have tried and don't like, at least you gave it a shot instead of making stuff up. And that's also the good thing...you can pretty much try at no risk. For your friends, I find it a bit strange to make this type of decisions based on internet anecdotes (I mean...you can _clearly _see that some places online are....not the most unbiased) on something as variable as a custom guitar, especially when you have a no risk option to try... but at the end of the day that's still absolutely 100% OK too!



You honestly think it's strange that people see how Kiesel customers are treated (even of the cases are isolated), and how the owner—who is very much the face of the company—acts, and don't want to be associated with the brand? And you think this is strange because they have the opportunity to pay full price for a guitar (from a brand they already have a negative view of) and return it if they don't like it? It doesn't really seem strange to me—it's almost as if they're being logical.


----------



## chipchappy

mbardu said:


> Again, if you actually tried the guitars and didn't like them...that's totally fine.



Right, we're past that now



mbardu said:


> And if your friends don't want to try something risk free and prefer to look at the online opinions, as mentioned that's their call too. 100% OK. Who said otherwise.



I was replying to this statement:



mbardu said:


> For your friends, I find it a bit strange to make this type of decisions based on internet anecdotes (I mean...you can _clearly _see that some places online are....not the most unbiased) on something as variable as a custom guitar, especially when you have a no risk option to try...



I know you put the disclaimer at the end saying its OK, but you said it's strange, and in my opinion it's not strange in the slightest and I was trying to use that as a reason why this debate is still ongoing. 




mbardu said:


> DO you care what I think? Do other posters care what other posters think? I doubt so, yet we're all posting. You are posting, aren't you. Like even to rehash things that have been said already



I'm certainly fine with listening and having a discussion, I care about your opinion about as much as anyone elses on here. I am still posting, replying to you, who's been going back and forth with a lot of other people here. I never re-hashed anything actually, everything I replied to was in response to things you said directly after you posted them. It's all about perspective, is _everyone_ on this thread wrong? Or just one guy? 



mbardu said:


> not sure why you're making it such a big deal



I don't think anyone in this forum would say that between the two of us* I'm *the one making it a big deal, pal


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> You honestly think it's strange that people see how Kiesel customers are treated (even of the cases are isolated), and how the owner—who is very much the face of the company—acts, and don't want to be associated with the brand? And you think this is strange because they have the opportunity to pay full price for a guitar (from a brand they already have a negative view of) and return it if they don't like it? It doesn't really seem strange to me—it's almost as if they're being logical.



I acknowledged that this is perfectly valid.
I 100% understand people who see Jeff's outbursts, who see the few customer service debacles, and decide "no that's enough for me, I don't ever want to try Kiesel" (If you're asking in good faith, I never said that any of those didn't matter, weren't good reasons or anything of the sort).

But unlike the "haters", I realize that there is more than a single point of view in the world. Or that maybe because I've been personally wronged by Kiesel, it doesn't mean I need to deny the benefits of the brand to others. Take the case of someone who's had good experience with Carvin in the past, and say doesn't need the 5% of non-returnable options. Well if that guy wants to order a Kiesel Delos, that's not strange either, and this is also a perfectly valid point of view.

If you can see that the second case exists just as much as the first one, then no problem.
Plus, even if online opinions are important, outside of SSO there are at least as many glowing opinions of the brand (service included) than there are negative ones.
So even if you base your opinion on what you see and read online...hating Kiesel is not necessarily logical no, unlike what you imply.

That why anyway, I always end up by encouraging people not top take my words or "haters" words, but make up their own opinion instead.


----------



## prlgmnr

mbardu said:


> Sorry- English is not my native language, but I feel like you must have forgotten to type some things in your sentence.


Brevity is the soul of wit.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> How can you seriously come in to try and argue "please keep it civil", and then jump right into "Still have a severe reading disability" as if it's a civil explanation or any argument for that matter? With not an actual point in sight- just another attack. Seriously...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if you actually tried the guitars and didn't like them...that's totally fine. Maybe you were unlucky with what you got, maybe that didn't click for you, maybe whatever. And if your friends don't want to try something and prefer to look at the online opinions, as mentioned that's their call too. 100% OK. Who said otherwise? And even though you called me a shill, at least you are not here trying to say argue that "no, it's impossible to order risk free from Kiesel" or other nonsense.
> 
> DO you care what I think? Do other posters care what other posters think? I doubt so, yet we're all posting. You are posting, aren't you. Like even to rehash things that have been said already (I mean, _again_, nobody denied any of the serious customer service issues). At the end of the day, it's just a guitar discussion forum and we're all discussing, not sure why you're making it such a big deal. I read, I see a lie, I reply that it's a lie, people make a strawman against me I reply against the strawman, people insult me or accuse me of being a shill, I correct the record etc etc etc. Nothing more than that.



I didn’t say to keep it civil. I was saying your method of argument is to first try to discredit the person (Johnathan, in this case), and yet you’ve got severe disability in actually understanding any of his many posts. That’s an actual point. You just don’t get it, and probably never will.


----------



## mbardu

chipchappy said:


> I know you put the disclaimer at the end saying its OK, but you said it's strange, and in my opinion it's not strange in the slightest and I was trying to use that as a reason why this debate is still ongoing.



Ah that's fine, if your problem is about the word strange, I can take that back.
I only meant that for some people, the importance of specs and quality of the instrument may outweigh the persona of the company's owner online.
I kinda get that people may think things like "this guys sucks sometimes...I don't want to buy from him", but on the other hand:

if it's an ethics question, then I very much doubt that the $$$-machines such as Fender/Gibson/Ibanez are much more ethical in their practices as a business than Kiesel. or the small builders that just stiff their buyers and have 0 recourses whatsoever. I'm sure that _some _people are more ethical, like John Suhr for example. No question there- but in the grand scheme of things and as a whole, Kiesel is far from the worst. But since they're direct, and always on social media, their fuckups are just the most visible by far. If that's the argument, only buy Suhr or Aristides or the like (definitely not anything mass produced)
if it's a question of "I don't want Kiesel on my headstock because SSO will mock me", well some people don't care about that



chipchappy said:


> I'm certainly fine with listening and having a discussion, I care about your opinion about as much as anyone elses on here. I am still posting, replying to you, who's been going back and forth with a lot of other people here. I never re-hashed anything actually, everything I replied to was in response to things you said directly after you posted them. It's all about perspective, is _everyone_ on this thread wrong? Or just one guy?



My points about rehashing was about talking again about the customer service lapses (or Jeff outbursts for that matter) that we know have been there, and that nobody defended.

As for the rest, I'm sure you'll realize though that the argument "there's a lot of us so we must be right" is one of the worst possible ways to defend a point. But anyway, unlike other people here, I don't care about saying what is "the right way" vs "the wrong way". I'll always end up with "everyone can make up their own opinion" when it's a subjective matter. The only things I'm kinda adamant about are just a few factual things that I'll still stand by (such as "you can try something custom 0 risk, 0 hassle, and nobody else offers that"). And I'm yet to be actually _proven _wrong or even acknowledged -either or- on even something basic like that. I only got deflections and subjective feelings as replies (for example "let me tell you why Kiesel doesn't offer something unique because those benefits don't matter to me or because I feel it's not the right way to order a guitar") as if opinions somehow negated facts.


----------



## spudmunkey

prlgmnr said:


> Brevity is the soul of wit.



...which is amusing, because I think his confusion came from an EXTRA letter ("none stop" vs "non-stop").


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> I didn’t say to keep it civil. I was saying your method of argument is to first try to discredit the person (Johnathan, in this case), and yet you’ve got severe disability in actually understanding any of his many posts. That’s an actual point. You just don’t get it, and probably never will.



If that's your point about method of argument and reading ability, then it's the pot calling the kettle black I'm afraid. While I replied point by point to all of Jonathan's arguments (go and check- it's right there), and he replied to none of mine (even simple yes/no questions deflected over and over again with feelings, even simple examples spelled out in details...just to be ignored), on top of that he's the one who decided plainly to just not discuss and call me a shill rather than try to argue.

Funny also how you have no issues with Jonathan incessant attacks on me but the fact that I dared criticize his lack of actual reply is a huge deal to you. Such objectivity.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> ...which is amusing, because I think his confusion came from an EXTRA letter ("none stop" vs "non-stop").



Ah OK, "_non-stop_".
The sentence really made no sense to me. Thanks, Spud!


----------



## chipchappy

mbardu said:


> Ah that's fine, if your problem is about the word strange, I can take that back.
> I only meant that for some people, the importance of specs and quality of the instrument may outweigh the persona of the company's owner online..



*no no no,* this is how he* is* as a person and he POSTED it online. This is not a character or persona, this is how he acts and treats people. Important distinction there



mbardu said:


> if it's an ethics question, then I very much doubt that the $$$-machines such as Fender/Gibson/Ibanez are much more ethical in their practices as a business than Kiesel. I'm sure that _some _people are, like John Suhr for example. No question there- but in the grand scheme of things and as a whole, Kiesel is far from the worst. But since they're direct, and always on social media, their fuckups are just the most visible by far. If that's the argument, only buy Suhr or Aristides or the like (definitely not anything mass produced)



First off, none of them operate like Kiesel in the direct to consumer way, so it's apples and oranges there. But Fender have never had a snafu like Kiesel and no one at Fender, Jackson or Charvel has ever insulted or lashed out against a customer or cut corners like Kiesel has. In fact on many occasions they've rebuilt custom instruments that customers didn't like with no issue. So they're much more ethical than Kiesel, factually.

Modern day Gibson can't get a playable guitar out the door period so tough to say how they'd handle that, but again they've never had an outburst or an attack against customers, just insanely poor business decisions and quality control, so still better than Kiesel in that way

Ibanez's custom shop isn't open to the public, so all you can get from them are production models and I've never heard of a return-gone-wrong with them and their vendors, so yeah, still more ethical.



mbardu said:


> As for the rest, I'm sure you'll realize though that the argument "there's a lot of us so we must be right" is one of the worst possible ways to defend a point. But anyway, unlike other people here, I don't care about saying what is "the right way" vs "the wrong way". I'll always end up with "everyone can make up their own opinion" when it's a subjective matter. The only things I'm kinda adamant about are just a few factual things that I'll still stand by (such as "you can try something custom 0 risk, 0 hassle, and nobody else offers that"). And I'm yet to be actually _proven _wrong or even acknowledged -either or- on even something basic like that. I only got deflections and subjective feelings as replies (for example "let me tell you why Kiesel doesn't offer something unique because those benefits don't matter to me or because I feel it's not the right way to order a guitar") as if opinions somehow negated facts.



I guess if that's what you got out of what I said then sure, continue to be "fact" police. A little introspection goes a long way though.


----------



## Jeff

mbardu said:


> If that's your point about method of argument and reading ability, then it's the pot calling the kettle black I'm afraid. While I replied point by point to all of Jonathan's arguments (go and check- it's right there), and he replied to none of mine (even simple yes/no questions deflected over and over again with feelings, even simple examples spelled out in details...just to be ignored), on top of that he's the one who decided plainly to just not discuss and call me a shill rather than try to argue.
> 
> Funny also how you have no issues with Jonathan incessant attacks on me but the fact that I dared criticize his lack of actual reply is a huge deal to you. Such objectivity.



 that’s what you’re getting from his posts? Whatever man. Again, lots of verbal diarrhea, very little reading or saying much of any substance. Back on the ignore list for you.

*Edit *wow, this page is half as long now


----------



## Thaeon

Are we still talking about this?


----------



## Science_Penguin

Thaeon said:


> Are we still talking about this?



Never underestimate the human need to get the last word.


----------



## USMarine75

I love this trainwreck.

Meanwhile...



chipchappy said:


> *no no no,* this is how he* is* as a person and he POSTED it online. This is not a character or persona, this is how he acts and treats people. Important distinction there
> 
> 
> 
> First off, none of them operate like Kiesel in the direct to consumer way, so it's apples and oranges there. But Fender have never had a snafu like Kiesel and no one at Fender, Jackson or Charvel has ever insulted or lashed out against a customer or cut corners like Kiesel has. In fact on many occasions they've rebuilt custom instruments that customers didn't like with no issue. So they're much more ethical than Kiesel, factually.
> 
> Modern day Gibson can't get a playable guitar out the door period so tough to say how they'd handle that, but again they've never had an outburst or an attack against customers, just insanely poor business decisions and quality control, so still better than Kiesel in that way
> 
> Ibanez's custom shop isn't open to the public, so all you can get from them are production models and I've never heard of a return-gone-wrong with them and their vendors, so yeah, still more ethical.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess if that's what you got out of what I said then sure, continue to be "fact" police. A little introspection goes a long way though.




"Modern day Gibson can't get a playable guitar out the door period so tough to say how they'd handle that, but again they've never had an outburst or an attack against customers, just insanely poor business decisions and quality control, so still better than Kiesel in that way" is probably actually 5-8% of guitars.

"In fact on many occasions [Fender, Jackson or Charvel] rebuilt custom instruments that customers didn't like with no issue. So they're much more ethical than Kiesel, factually." Factually.







"But Fender have never had a snafu like Kiesel" Nope, never. No issues with CBS quality and business practices. Is that you, sorry, I can't see you due to my shortsightedness.


----------



## jco5055

Playing quasi-devil's advocate here (Ok maybe that's not the right word):

I am one of those "no way would I get a new Kiesel based on all the controversy" people in this thread, but if we just pretend for one moment Jeff is actually a changed man based on the roasted neck fiasco, how long do you think Kiesel would need to have in terms of a "any QC issues etc a new guitar owner notices gets it fixed, no questions asked or hassle"? A year? 6 months? I am unaware of how frequent average customer service headache issue Kiesel has seems to occur.

I only ask because I could see theoretically in the future buying a back-up guitar or like a "I am interested in headless/8strings/multiscale/teles etc, not sure if it works for me, so let's buy a decent quality/price point instrument to test it out" from Kiesel, only if they permanently fix the issues that have caused this thread to even come into existence.


----------



## chipchappy

USMarine75 said:


> I love this trainwreck.
> 
> Meanwhile...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Modern day Gibson can't get a playable guitar out the door period so tough to say how they'd handle that, but again they've never had an outburst or an attack against customers, just insanely poor business decisions and quality control, so still better than Kiesel in that way" is probably actually 5-8% of guitars.
> 
> 
> "But Fender have never had a snafu like Kiesel" Nope, never. No issues with CBS quality and business practices. Is that you, sorry, I can't see you due to my shortsightedness.



Agreed that only 5-8% of gibsons are playable (kidding!)

That CBS buyout ended 35 years ago! Cmon man get with the times and get lasik surgery for pete's sake


----------



## High Plains Drifter

This thread gave my cat syphilis.


----------



## Jonathan20022

jco5055 said:


> Playing quasi-devil's advocate here (Ok maybe that's not the right word):
> 
> I am one of those "no way would I get a new Kiesel based on all the controversy" people in this thread, but if we just pretend for one moment Jeff is actually a changed man based on the roasted neck fiasco, how long do you think Kiesel would need to have in terms of a "any QC issues etc a new guitar owner notices gets it fixed, no questions asked or hassle"? A year? 6 months? I am unaware of how frequent average customer service headache issue Kiesel has seems to occur.
> 
> I only ask because I could see theoretically in the future buying a back-up guitar or like a "I am interested in headless/8strings/multiscale/teles etc, not sure if it works for me, so let's buy a decent quality/price point instrument to test it out" from Kiesel, only if they permanently fix the issues that have caused this thread to even come into existence.



There's no real guidebook on this or anything, it's just something you make your own personal judgement on. I just upgraded my SLR, and I ended up sticking with the same brand because at the available discount they made the best camera in the price range I was willing to spend. But I considered Fujifilm/Nikon/Panasonic/Pentax before deciding to go with with an upgraded camera.

In cases like with Kiesel, there will probably always be mention of it here or other guitar corners of the internet. So whenever you intend to make a purchase is that time period where you can consider if the brand has redeemed themselves. Just search around, ask communities, and if there have been any snafus make an educated guess if you want to give them your money or go with a competitor.


----------



## mbardu

chipchappy said:


> *no no no,* this is how he* is* as a person and he POSTED it online. This is not a character or persona, this is how he acts and treats people. Important distinction there
> 
> First off, none of them operate like Kiesel in the direct to consumer way, so it's apples and oranges there. But Fender have never had a snafu like Kiesel and no one at Fender, Jackson or Charvel has ever insulted or lashed out against a customer or cut corners like Kiesel has. In fact on many occasions they've rebuilt custom instruments that customers didn't like with no issue. So they're much more ethical than Kiesel, factually.



On some occasions, shops like Jackson have done rebuilds, true! I never contested that, but also on other occasions they haven't. It's actually more the exception than the rule. Most custom shop orders through most custom shop dealers also have the clear "all sales final", "non returnable" etc etc rules; their policies states it clearly, and it's pretty unambiguous, really. And to the "just pick a better dealer" answer, that's even the case for what people consider the best dealers (Matt's Music, Music Zoo, Brian's...). Oh, and even in the exceptions of some rebuilds, you're not going to get away with something like "actually I'd like to change that list of specs or actually get a totally different model" or even "it's too heavy or doesn't sound how I expected". I detailed a Suhr example earlier.

One thing I'll totally agree with is that it's all conflated in the case of Kiesel because they're selling direct. And that doesn't play in their favor. Whereas when you buy an average off-the-rack Ibanez, you could easily also get the tantrums from the guitarcenter employee, or x% restocking fees on a lot of online dealers for high end instruments. Or no way to change your mind on a super custom order etc etc. You're not hating Ibanez guitars because of the GC employee or PRS because of the dealers restocking fee. Yet we hate Jeff and Kiesel guitars by association because he's all of the things- and makes a fool of himself on social media. Do I think he sucks sometimes? Yes! Big time (I don't even know how people think I could be a paid shill when I keep saying that). Do I know whether the Fender/Gibson/Ibanez owners are D-bags or not in comparison? Nope, no idea, I don't see them on social media. They are however also heads of businesses going after profit at the end of the day, so their motives are the same and it's not like they're doing it _for the consumer_.

I'll just repeat for the umptieth time a very clear distinction.
If you order something without a non-returnable option, then none of the drama and Jeff discussions actually affects you. You will have a 0 risk possibility to try a custom instrument.
I almost consider that a separate brand/shop, or let's say that you could call that the "standard" option at Kiesel (although you still get to pick your specs, even for that 'standard').

If you order some option 50 specs? This is now the "custom shop" option at traditional big names. It's 5% of the options, and if you add a ton of "off-menu" things, it's not Kiesel's forte, and yep, you might (even that is far from guaranteed) get some shitty drama. I don't really recommend that route actually.

But my point with ethics is that at some point you have to pick, are you buying a guitar because of things that affect _you _only (in which case the "standard" shop at Kiesel offers little to no risk), or because of things that _do not _affect you (like the underlying ethics of the broader business that you "support" with your $$$s)? Ethics wise, big $$ names like Fender/Gibson/Ibanez also have serious ethics issues ("cutting corners" is pretty much the business model for many brands, but let's not forget the way they treat suppliers, the way they treat their dealers, the sustainability of the supply chain of their woods, the cheap labor in overseas factories etc). And not judging or deciding there, my point was that depending on what you value on there (some people don't care that a company moves production to cheap labor overseas, some people don't care about sustainability), you might think Kiesel is more ethical, or less ethical than others. And for _some _people, they are a totally valid choice, with some unique things that others don't offer. As such, I often recommend them for their pros, just like I recommend Aristides anyday for people with 4k$ (they're basically perfect in my book if one of their designs matches what you need) or I won't judge someone buying a cheap import produced by a multinational through cheap labor overseas. Different people value different things.

Finally though,_ if_ the argument is "I don't want to buy a Kiesel because Jeff was ridiculous on social media so SSO will mock me", that's not an issue for most people. Not saying it's your argument- but just getting that out of the way.



chipchappy said:


> I guess if that's what you got out of what I said then sure, continue to be "fact" police. A little introspection goes a long way though.



Well the part about "we're a lot so we're right, you're alone so you're wrong" is coming from you, I didn't make that up. Unlike others though, I am not pretending to be the fact police or the "right way to order a guitar" police, so if anyone can prove why the fact in the prior post is false (you don't have to like it or think it's for you, but they do offer something good and unique with their customizable returnable instruments), I'll gladly correct it with 0 hard feelings. Always happy to be proven wrong and learn something. When that happens, it's always refreshing compared to just being called a shill without a counterpoint.


----------



## chipchappy

mbardu said:


> Well the part about "we're a lot so we're right, you're alone so you're wrong" is coming from you, I didn't make that up.



No doubt. I see your point, fair enough. 

And to be clear I wasn't trying to say "it's us against you so deal with it" - just some of your past posts with others came off as pedantic at times, even if you had a point, which is why I think you got some bit of a negative reaction on here.


----------



## mbardu

chipchappy said:


> No doubt. I see your point, fair enough.
> 
> And to be clear I wasn't trying to say "it's us against you so deal with it" - just some of your past posts with others came off as pedantic at times, even if you had a point, which is why I think you got some bit of a negative reaction on here.



At least thank you for reading and taking the time to answer after starting with the "shill" comment initially! Again, English is not my native language, so my apologies if I come off as pedantic. I just tend to write a lot naturally.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> On some occasions, shops like Jackson have done rebuilds, true! I never contested that, but also on other occasions they haven't. It's actually more the exception than the rule. Most custom shop orders through most custom shop dealers have the clear "non returnable" mentions, their return policy states the same, it's pretty unambiguous, really. And to the "just pick a better dealer" answer, that's even the case for what people consider the best dealers (Matt's Music, Music Zoo, Brian's...). Oh, and even in the exceptions of such rebuilds, you're not going to get away with something like "actually I'd like to change that list of specs or actually get a totally different model" or even "it's too heavy or doesn't sound how I expected". I detailed a Suhr example earlier.



Can you share an example of these occasions where they haven't? Jackson, ESP, Fender? Or any brands that are actual reputable companies and not outright thieves? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just can't recall seeing any stories where they've botched custom shop orders and refused to make them right one way or another, and since you say it's the rule rather than exception, and I know you're big on honestly in this thread, so there must be a bunch of things you can link us to.


----------



## oneblackened

xzacx said:


> Can you share an example of these occasions where they haven't? Jackson, ESP, Fender? Or any brands that are actual reputable companies and not outright thieves? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just can't recall seeing any stories where they've botched custom shop orders and refused to make them right one way or another, and since you say it's the rule rather than exception, and I know you're big on honestly in this thread, so there must be a bunch of things you can link us to.


I've literally seen Suhr go above and beyond, on this forum, to make things right for a customer.


----------



## Wolfhorsky




----------



## USMarine75

xzacx said:


> Can you share an example of these occasions where they haven't? Jackson, ESP, Fender? Or any brands that are actual reputable companies and not outright thieves? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just can't recall seeing any stories where they've botched custom shop orders and refused to make them right one way or another, and since you say it's the rule rather than exception, and I know you're big on honestly in this thread, so there must be a bunch of things you can link us to.



First, you're on SSO. Not a lot of Fender stories 'round these parts period.

There have been at least two Jackson botched CS jobs posted on here.

FWIW 90%+ of Kiesel's builds are not custom. They are "semi-custom". The fair comparison for most of their builds are probably limited edition Fender USA, Jackson USA, Charvel USA, etc. 

e.g. You really can't compare the Fender CS with Kiesel. That is an unfair comparison in price and capability. Fender's master luthiers are some of the very best in the business.

Their custom builds are their Option 50 models. Which they are basically saying, "we are not responsible if this doesn't turn out the way you wanted".


----------



## RiksRiks

USMarine75 said:


> There have been at least two Jackson botched CS jobs posted on here.



That definitely reminded me of the 23 fret Jackson CS


----------



## Cynicanal

xzacx said:


> Can you share an example of these occasions where they haven't? Jackson, ESP, Fender? Or any brands that are actual reputable companies and not outright thieves? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just can't recall seeing any stories where they've botched custom shop orders and refused to make them right one way or another, and since you say it's the rule rather than exception, and I know you're big on honestly in this thread, so there must be a bunch of things you can link us to.


BC Rich's Custom shop knowingly shipped a guitar that had a truss rod that couldn't be adjusted. Jackson has the infamous "23 frets" guitar, and years later, that guy was _still_ waiting for his rebuild; there's lots of similar stories from their customer shop in the post-FMIC era, your options with them are "rebuild, but it's going to take three or more yeard" or "10% off of your completely fucked guitar" when they ship a lemon (which they seem to quite often).


----------



## Jeff

Jonathan20022 said:


> There's no real guidebook on this or anything, it's just something you make your own personal judgement on. I just upgraded my SLR, and I ended up sticking with the same brand because at the available discount they made the best camera in the price range I was willing to spend. But I considered Fujifilm/Nikon/Panasonic/Pentax before deciding to go with with an upgraded camera.
> 
> In cases like with Kiesel, there will probably always be mention of it here or other guitar corners of the internet. So whenever you intend to make a purchase is that time period where you can consider if the brand has redeemed themselves. Just search around, ask communities, and if there have been any snafus make an educated guess if you want to give them your money or go with a competitor.



Probably just easiest to check if Jeff Kiesel is still in charge.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Cynicanal said:


> BC Rich's Custom shop knowingly shipped a guitar that had a truss rod that couldn't be adjusted.


How did that eventually play out?


----------



## xzacx

USMarine75 said:


> First, you're on SSO. Not a lot of Fender stories 'round these parts period.
> 
> There have been at least two Jackson botched CS jobs posted on here.
> 
> FWIW 90%+ of Kiesel's builds are not custom. They are "semi-custom". The fair comparison for most of their builds are probably limited edition Fender USA, Jackson USA, Charvel USA, etc.
> 
> e.g. You really can't compare the Fender CS with Kiesel. That is an unfair comparison in price and capability. Fender's master luthiers are some of the very best in the business.
> 
> Their custom builds are their Option 50 models. Which they are basically saying, "we are not responsible if this doesn't turn out the way you wanted".



My only point in that was in response to him saying "On some occasions, shops like Jackson have done rebuilds, true! I never contested that, *but also on other occasions they haven't. It's actually more the exception than the rule."* I've undoubtedly seen instances of builders in the FMIC family screwing up builds, but not about them refusing to make things right. Both of the Jackson cases I'm guessing you're talking about (the 23 fret one, and the more recent one), they offered to rebuild. He said there are far more cases where brands like that don't, I'm just asking for some examples.


----------



## Spicypickles

High Plains Drifter said:


> This thread gave my cat syphilis.


You shouldn’t take it out on your cat like that.


----------



## USMarine75

xzacx said:


> My only point in that was in response to him saying "On some occasions, shops like Jackson have done rebuilds, true! I never contested that, *but also on other occasions they haven't. It's actually more the exception than the rule."* I've undoubtedly seen instances of builders in the FMIC family screwing up builds, but not about them refusing to make things right. Both of the Jackson cases I'm guessing you're talking about (the 23 fret one, and the more recent one), they offered to rebuild. He said there are far more cases where brands like that don't, I'm just asking for some examples.



But how do we know that Peavey or Mayones or ViK haven't on occasion done rebuilds? I'm sure Kiesel has done free rebuilds (maybe even free return shipping). But they've also told people where they can shove their pointy headstock. Sample stories here and there (like the two Jackson CS nightmares) don't justify an opinion of an entire company. Gibson absolutely has QC and customer relations issues. But I have two Gibsons I will put against ANY guitar custom or otherwise that will hold their own or smoke them. Their customer service has been awesome to me... sending me free stuff. When the 2015 nuts had issues they sent me several options including the TUSQ and titanium ones. That doesn't absolve them of their issues. But around these parts the hyperbole of Gibson flaws is ridiculous. I still wouldn't buy one without trying or without a good return policy/window lol.

Anyways, it's just not a good way to build an argument.

My friend had a daughter who developed autism after watching the Wiggles, therefore the Wiggles cause autism. I don't know for sure how many times this happened, but it did at least happen on this occasion. So it must happen to everyone. (I don't actually know this to be true, but it did feel right typing it )


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Can you share an example of these occasions where they haven't? Jackson, ESP, Fender? Or any brands that are actual reputable companies and not outright thieves? I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just can't recall seeing any stories where they've botched custom shop orders and refused to make them right one way or another, and since you say it's the rule rather than exception, and I know you're big on honestly in this thread, so there must be a bunch of things you can link us to.



If you want Jackson specifically, yeah sure. We don't see new one-off custom build NGDs now with "custom select" taking that place, so the examples are from around...I guess 2015 or so?

We all know about the infamous "23 frets" Kelly, which by the way also had terrible wonky side dots (but apparently, that's only a problem for Kiesel, we don't care if it's other manufacturers...). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (since you're the resident Jackson expert), but on this one after weeks of back and forth with the dealer, Jackson offered either something like a 2/300$ compensation , or a guaranteed express rebuild within 90 days. Yet I believe about a year later, the 90-day rebuild was _still not there_, and then we stopped hearing from the OP altogether. I guess it's OK to promise a rebuild, but if it's never delivered, it doesn't do much for the buyer.
At pretty much the same time, there was the botched Dinky from the JCF forum, with misaligned routes and neck where....drumroll...not only did Jackson refuse to rebuild the guitar, but they also banned the client from ordering from them ever again (maybe that's just me, but it sounds like they were ahead of their time compared to Kiesel!). Edit: I found the old JCF thread, older than I remembered, here => https://www.jcfonline.com/forum/equ...32-custom-shop-flawed-guitar-looking-for-help
As mentioned we see only custom selects these days (not real customs) so there's no real pool of brand new information. And even when they were a little more common, I bet you'll agree that Jackson custom shop/masterbuilt have never had the volumes of even the non-returnable Kiesel.

Jackson aside I quoted my Suhr earlier, and although they have allowed things like change a neck shape together with a warranty rebuild (which is 100% to their credit, and John Suhr is _always _a pleasure to deal with- no questions), I was not able to just change the specs of my Mahogany/Quilt top modern after the fact when I found out it didn't actually weigh or sound like I thought it would. Hence why I was quoting that example some posts ago to say that even testing guitars at dealers (like _another _Mahogany/Maple Modern) will _not _give you the peace of mind of Kiesel; i.e. of still being able to return something to your specs no questions asked if it doesn't' work out. They're the only ones to provide that.

But anyway, and regardless of the examples above, I'm not trying to play games or play on words here- so I'll just clarify what I meant. I literally said "it's the exception, not the rule", because the rule is clear. The rules for custom ordering are there on every dealer's website and clearly say "no refund, no returns, no changes, all sales finals". . It didn't try to count or get a proportion to play a numbers game. I literally just said what the rule was (and it can be seen on any dealer's websites- together with the $$ amount of the non-refundable deposit), and what doesn't follow that rule is...then by definition an exception to those rules.

Just to clarify, again. I didn't say "those other builders will not _support _the guitar for warranty after it's built". I would never say that and have in fact acknowledged multiple times the level of support from people like Suhr or Aristides. But Kiesel will _also _support their guitars (with the same warranty) even if they are "non-returnable". And I guarantee that if they produced a guitar with 23 frets, they will _absolutely_ rebuild it, and unlike the 23-fret Kelly, the rebuild will actually show up one day. And not even in a year, 6 months or 3 months- their rush build is closer to 6 weeks.


----------



## xzacx

USMarine75 said:


> But how do we know that Peavey or Mayones or ViK haven't on occasion done rebuilds? I'm sure Kiesel has done free rebuilds (maybe even free return shipping). But they've also told people where they can shove their pointy headstock. Sample stories here and there (like the two Jackson CS nightmares) don't justify an opinion of an entire company. Gibson absolutely has QC and customer relations issues. But I have two Gibsons I will put against ANY guitar custom or otherwise that will hold their own or smoke them. Their customer service has been awesome to me... sending me free stuff. When the 2015 nuts had issues they sent me several options including the TUSQ and titanium ones. That doesn't absolve them of their issues. But around these parts the hyperbole of Gibson flaws is ridiculous. I still wouldn't buy one without trying or without a good return policy/window lol.
> 
> Anyways, it's just not a good way to build an argument.
> 
> My friend had a daughter who developed autism after watching the Wiggles, therefore the Wiggles cause autism. I don't know for sure how many times this happened, but it did at least happen on this occasion. So it must happen to everyone. (I don't actually know this to be true, but it did feel right typing it )



I agree with you 100%, I think all reputable brands offer rebuilds when appropriate. My point was that Kiesel isn't unique in that they rebuild guitars occasionally.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> I agree with you 100%, I think all reputable brands offer rebuilds when appropriate. My point was that *Kiesel isn't unique in that they rebuild guitars occasionally*.



No they are not unique there. And I would even agree that they are not the best in some "rebuild to same specs" scenarios (as in, if you pick something non returnable, they may give you some hassle). That's why I don't recommend those non returnable options if you're risk averse.

Where they _are unique_ is that as long as you pick returnable options (so 95% of them), they will rebuild no matter what, no questions asked and you can try with 0 risk, 0 hassle, and 0 Jeffism.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> Probably just easiest to check if Jeff Kiesel is still in charge.



We certainly got great guitars from him (love both the Vader and Vanquish); plus where else are you going to find another guitar company owner who just comes up with a brand new guitar model by taking an existing guitar, taking it to a saw on live stream to chop some parts off and _you guessed it_, bevel it some more  ?

However, a lot of very public issues, customer satisfaction or general drama would certainly change for the better if he let someone else make more thought out customer service calls and if he didn't have his _episodes _on camera.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> If you want Jackson specifically, yeah sure. We don't see new one-off custom build NGDs now with "custom select" taking that place, so the examples are from around...I guess 2015 or so?
> 
> We all know about the infamous "23 frets" Kelly, which by the way also had terrible wonky side dots (but apparently, that's only a problem for Kiesel, we don't care if it's other manufacturers...). Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (since you're the resident Jackson expert), but on this one after weeks of back and forth with the dealer, Jackson offered either something like a 2/300$ compensation , or a guaranteed express rebuild within 90 days. Yet I believe about a year later, the 90-day rebuild was _still not there_, and then we stopped hearing from the OP altogether. I guess it's OK to promise a rebuild, but if it's never delivered, it doesn't do much for the buyer.
> At pretty much the same time, there was the botched Dinky from the JCF forum, with misaligned routes and neck where....drumroll...not only did Jackson refuse to rebuild the guitar, but they also banned the client from ordering from them ever again (maybe that's just me, but it sounds like they were ahead of their time compared to Kiesel!). Edit: I found the old JCF thread, older than I remembered, here => https://www.jcfonline.com/forum/equ...32-custom-shop-flawed-guitar-looking-for-help
> As mentioned we see only custom selects these days (not real customs) so there's no real pool of brand new information. And even when they were a little more common, I bet you'll agree that Jackson custom shop/masterbuilt have never had the volumes of even the non-returnable Kiesel.



So you produced a grand total of two examples after claiming it was the rule rather than exception that Jackson doesn't rebuild things they've screwed up. One of which they absolutely offered to rebuild—and the guy with the Kelly posted multiple additional Custom Shops he had built years after that, which he claimed were worth the wait—you can look them up on this very forum. The other I didn't ever see, so cool—I'll check the thread out. But there are multiple JCF threads about specs being screwed up and then corrected. Too many many in fact—I don't know how they manage to screw stuff up so much. They probably don't care because dealers snatch them up quickly to sell. But that's a whole different discussion I won't defend them on. 

What does being Custom Select have to do with anything though? That's a better comparison to Kiesel—what kind of "real customs" are Kiesel producing?




mbardu said:


> But anyway, and regardless of the examples above, I'm not trying to play games or play on words here- so I'll just clarify what I meant. I literally said "it's the exception, not the rule", because the rule is clear. The rules for custom ordering are there on every dealer's website and clearly say "no refund, no returns, no changes, all sales finals". . It didn't try to count or get a proportion to play a numbers game. I literally just said what the rule was (and it can be seen on any dealer's websites- together with the $$ amount of the non-refundable deposit), and what doesn't follow that rule is...then by definition an exception to those rules.



Maybe I misunderstood you then, because it seemed to me you were saying that "it's the exception, not the rule" that brands like Jackson offer rebuilds when they've screwed something up, and I don't believe that to be the case. 



mbardu said:


> However, a lot of very public issues, customer satisfaction or general drama would certainly change for the better if he let someone else make more thought out customer service calls and if didn't have his _episodes _on camera.



I could be wrong about this, but I feel like a lot of Kiesel hate comes from the premise of the company being so good, only to be ruined by a guy that comes off as a walking Affliction-designed MAGA hat. "Relatively affordable custom guitars that don't take too long" is something most people would like, in theory. Maybe the designs aren't for them, or they want something higher quality, but generally speaking, it's a concept to get behind. And I think Carvin always seemed to have a lot of good will in the guitar community too. I even think Jeff has been really smart in catering to the ERG/metal crowd, which is a younger demographic that actually buys guitars still. The company seems to be doing well based on how busy he always says they are, so maybe he doesn't even care. But I do think a lot of the negativity comes from it being a brand people want to like.


----------



## mbardu

First of all, thank you for taking the time for a reply.



xzacx said:


> So you produced a grand total of two examples



You asked for _one _example and I produced 3, 2 out of which were Jackson. I thought that was fair so it's weird to criticize that now.



xzacx said:


> One of which they absolutely offered to rebuild—and the guy with the Kelly posted multiple additional Custom Shops he had built years after that, which he claimed were worth the wait—you can look them up on this very forum.



They offered a rebuild after long back and forth with dealer, lied about the 90-day wait- so much so that the actual guitar was still not there a year later. Is that a happy resolution?

You talk about that person having other builds from Jackson that he was happy with. Does that make the other case disappear? Would you find it fair if I said that Jonathan's disastrous experience with Kiesel on one of his builds doesn't count because he had 5 good separate experiences? Because I never tried to diminish what Jonathan went through and totally sympathize with how poorly he was treated by Kiesel, even though some of his other experiences were OK.

Are the rules for arguments different between Jackson custom shop and Kiesel because we don't like Kiesel?



xzacx said:


> The other I didn't ever see, so cool—I'll check the thread out. But there are multiple JCF threads about specs being screwed up and then corrected. Too many many in fact—I don't know how they manage to screw stuff up so much. They probably don't care because dealers snatch them up quickly to sell. But that's a whole different discussion I won't defend them on.
> 
> What does being Custom Select have to do with anything though? That's a better comparison to Kiesel—what kind of "real customs" are Kiesel producing?



I separated Custom Select, ironically, to give more of a "fighting chance" to Jackson in that discussion.
I kinda equated the Custom Selects to Kiesels without option 50s earlier, let's call them Kiesel "Standards"; and the Kiesel with option 50s to regular "Custom Shop", at least insofar as you cannot just return and get a refund on a Kiesel with option 50 just on a whim (we all know the comparison ends there...the actual Jackson custom shop would have cost 3 times as much, but offered waaaay more possibilities).

If we want to talk about Custom Select, and specs/return/refund/rebuild, we have:

Jackson Select where you can select from a pretty good number of specs. The rules stated by the dealer are very clear that there are no returns/refunds/rebuilds, and there are non-refundable deposits. You may be able to return for a rebuild if everything goes 100% smooth between you, the dealer and Jackson. But those are exceptions to the stated rules. A rebuild will be at best to similar specs on the same model (if they allow changes), and in general to the same exact specs. No refunds.
Kiesel "standards" you can select for a higher number of specs (even if you exclude the option 50s). The rules stated by the manufacturer are very clear that you can return for a rebuild or a full 100 % refund, no questions asked. If you rebuild, you can change any spec. If you rebuild, you can even change the model and get something else. If not, you can just get your money back.
Which policy gives more options to the buyer? What single advantage could the Jackson policy have over the Kiesel one? And not in a "I feel I wouldn't use that possibility- it's stupid" or "only people who know exactly what they want should be allowed to order a custom" way. In an actual objective way. What isn't very good and unique about the Kiesel proposition? I feel like it only offers more options to the customer, but don't hesitate to correct me if I mischaracterized anything.



xzacx said:


> Maybe I misunderstood you then, because it seemed to me you were saying that "it's the exception, not the rule" that brands like Jackson offer rebuilds when they've screwed something up, and I don't believe that to be the case.



Yes maybe you misunderstood, because (it was quoted) I was replying to



chipchappy said:


> In fact on many occasions they've rebuilt custom instruments that customers didn't like with no issue.



Which is about the customer _not liking_ the instrument, not about the manufacturer necessarily "screwing up". An important nuance because it's possible that Jackson builds a nice looking Custom Select for a client, with a nice top and finish, no terrible flaws, and yet it still doesn't play well or sound good. We're talking pieces of wood, so shit happens. In that scenario, it would be an uphill battle to get a rebuild, let alone a refund- not only from Jackson, but from most of the builders out there.


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## chipchappy

mbardu said:


> First of all, thank you for taking the time for a reply.
> Yes maybe you misunderstood, because (it was quoted) I was replying to





ahh nuts video embed doesnt work go to 55 seconds in 

PLZ PLZ I DONT WANT TO GET INVOLVED


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## Thaeon

xzacx said:


> So you produced a grand total of two examples after claiming it was the rule rather than exception that Jackson doesn't rebuild things they've screwed up. One of which they absolutely offered to rebuild—and the guy with the Kelly posted multiple additional Custom Shops he had built years after that, which he claimed were worth the wait—you can look them up on this very forum. The other I didn't ever see, so cool—I'll check the thread out. But there are multiple JCF threads about specs being screwed up and then corrected. Too many many in fact—I don't know how they manage to screw stuff up so much. They probably don't care because dealers snatch them up quickly to sell. But that's a whole different discussion I won't defend them on.
> 
> What does being Custom Select have to do with anything though? That's a better comparison to Kiesel—what kind of "real customs" are Kiesel producing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I misunderstood you then, because it seemed to me you were saying that "it's the exception, not the rule" that brands like Jackson offer rebuilds when they've screwed something up, and I don't believe that to be the case.
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong about this, but I feel like a lot of Kiesel hate comes from the premise of the company being so good, only to be ruined by a guy that comes off as a walking Affliction-designed MAGA hat. "Relatively affordable custom guitars that don't take too long" is something most people would like, in theory. Maybe the designs aren't for them, or they want something higher quality, but generally speaking, it's a concept to get behind. And I think Carvin always seemed to have a lot of good will in the guitar community too. I even think Jeff has been really smart in catering to the ERG/metal crowd, which is a younger demographic that actually buys guitars still. The company seems to be doing well based on how busy he always says they are, so maybe he doesn't even care. But I do think a lot of the negativity comes from it being a brand people want to like.



You hit the nail on the head. I love some of the designs and they ARE a great option for a semi-custom on a decent budget. However, I can't support the business ethics. Part of the reason I'm hesitant to support Gibson (QC being the other) as well. Despite my life long desire for a limba Explorer like The Edge's.


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## Cynicanal

Carl Kolchak said:


> How did that eventually play out?


No idea -- we don't know about it because of the customer, we know about it because a former high-level employee shared a picture of how the thing was built. The guess is it got shipped out, and the customer never tried to adjust it, or if they did, it was faaaar too late to do anything about it.


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## Seabeast2000

Carl Kolchak said:


> How did that eventually play out?



Syphillis, from my understanding.


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## coupe89

This guy is lucky he is not like this with Gibson or he would have a 24/7 job with how people talk about them.


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## Velokki

RiksRiks said:


> That definitely reminded me of the 23 fret Jackson CS



I'll have to chime in here.
In my local marketplace, there is a brand new Jackson Custom Shop Soloist for sale. Made in 2019 if I'm not mistaken. The text on it says "The frets were changed and redone by X (a reputable local luthier), the original frets were surprisingly bad".

Imagine that - having frets changed on your _brand new Jackson CUSTOM SHOP_ guitar, because they were bad. I mean - that wouldn't occur to me ever on my LTD guitars or even my new Ibanez Premium.

Examples like these just scare me away forever from Jackson.


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## mbardu

Velokki said:


> I'll have to chime in here.
> In my local marketplace, there is a brand new Jackson Custom Shop Soloist for sale. Made in 2019 if I'm not mistaken. The text on it says "The frets were changed and redone by X (a reputable local luthier), the original frets were surprisingly bad".
> 
> Imagine that - having frets changed on your _brand new Jackson CUSTOM SHOP_ guitar, because they were bad. I mean - that wouldn't occur to me ever on my LTD guitars or even my new Ibanez Premium.
> 
> Examples like these just scare me away forever from Jackson.



Well I won't comment on the Jackson custom shop to avoid antagonizing some people even further, but some of those newer and higher end Ibanez Premiums (especially those with stainless steel frets) have surprisingly good fretwork from the factory. Not the _prettiest _or even-_looking _out there (you can see some tool marks here or there). But well put together, crowned, even feeling, and no sharp ends. Actually even puts some Prestige guitars to shame..


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## Carl Kolchak

Velokki said:


> I mean - that wouldn't occur to me ever on my LTD guitars or even my new Ibanez Premium.


Pull up a chair. I've got a story to tell you about an Ibanez Prestige then....


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## SamSam

mbardu said:


> One thing I'll totally agree with is that it's all conflated in the case of Kiesel because they're selling direct. And that doesn't play in their favor. Whereas when you buy an average off-the-rack Ibanez, you could easily also get the tantrums from the guitarcenter employee, or x% restocking fees on a lot of online dealers for high end instruments. Or no way to change your mind on a super custom order etc etc. You're not hating Ibanez guitars because of the GC employee or PRS because of the dealers restocking fee. Yet we hate Jeff and Kiesel guitars by association because he's all of the things- and makes a fool of himself on social media. Do I think he sucks sometimes? Yes! Big time (I don't even know how people think I could be a paid shill when I keep saying that). Do I know whether the Fender/Gibson/Ibanez owners are D-bags or not in comparison? Nope, no idea, I don't see them on social media. They are however also heads of businesses going after profit at the end of the day, so their motives are the same and it's not like they're doing it _for the consumer_.



This is a poor argument because the policy is set by the establishment the instrument was bought form and not the producer. In Kiesel's case it is different because they are the direct point of sale.

We all get that you like Kiesel guitars and their services, but could you please stop posting your sale routine on every second post? I don't need to read that I can pay a 10% deposit on my credit card and have a 10 day return satisfaction guaranteed experience. Do you take commission? Do you need to meet a quota? It fucking seems like it the way you harp on about their sales procedure. And no Kiesel is not a custom shop, they do not offer on changes to their (in my opinion) generally unappealing designs.

Most of us are most likely ignoring your point about the Ibanez AZ series because overall (price aside) the aesthetics of the instruments are pleasing to most and a nice nod back to their older models. Quality wise, honestly I have never played a "Kiesel" but I have tried Carvin basses. And they were fine, well built, pretty wood, but in the end nothing special (to me).

I would love to try a guitar of theirs to decide for myself, but they are not common around here. And frankly it would be for curiosity as opposed to considering a purchase. I already know my next guitar will either be a PRS, an Aristides or (Inevitably) another Ibanez. This year alone I've bought two MIJ S7420s for about half the price of a mid tier specced Kiesel and I doubt a Kiesel would be miles better or worse, in all likelihood just different.

And then there's Jeff himself. And he's really just the final nail in the race striped, bi-tone colour clashing coffin.


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## 1b4n3z

Velokki said:


> I'll have to chime in here.
> In my local marketplace, there is a brand new Jackson Custom Shop Soloist for sale. Made in 2019 if I'm not mistaken. The text on it says "The frets were changed and redone by X (a reputable local luthier), the original frets were surprisingly bad".
> 
> Imagine that - having frets changed on your _brand new Jackson CUSTOM SHOP_ guitar, because they were bad. I mean - that wouldn't occur to me ever on my LTD guitars or even my new Ibanez Premium.
> 
> Examples like these just scare me away forever from Jackson.



Yeah that's my Jackson 

Funny that they let that out of the factory - there's no way they didn't see the defect right away. The neck hasn't moved and otherwise it's spot on. Well, that was less of a hassle than my other CS Soloist (2017), that a has a too shallow a neck angle.

I suppose Jackson would have corrected those mistakes had they been new (they did stress the fact that I wasn't the first owner) and I will reserve my judgment for now. But how long are you prepared to wait for your dream guitar, then


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Oh no I can't get a refund for my reverse unicorn toilet burst with rainbow fretboard. 

I feel like most of these horror stories come from consumers who don't research their purchases before making them. Whenever making any purchase above $1000, you should always do your research. Calling them multiple times before ordering is not annoying, it is research. The sales guys will tell you which things void returns and such.

Runs always have no cancels, no refunds, and no trial. 

Also I want to ask. How many people in this thread have actually even ordered or owned a Kiesel? Not Carvin. Kiesel. I feel like people jump on the hate wagon because it is where they get the most attention.


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## mbardu

SamSam said:


> We all get that you like Kiesel guitars and their services.





SamSam said:


> And then there's Jeff himself.



I shouldn't need to really reply further if you point the above, because I never defended Kiesel service or Jeff.
I really don't get why people are so incapable of considering a point of view that they _have _to make up stuff or think that someone with a different opinion _has to be paid._

No matter though, If you have the means and prefer to order an Aristides, that's a great decision in my opinion (like I said multiple times). There is 0 doubt in my mind that you'll get something great. And especially if you're not in the US, some of my arguments regarding trying with no hassle clearly work best in the US (for that matter, I am not aware of _any _option for custom at 0 risk where you live).


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## Jonathan20022

1b4n3z said:


> Yeah that's my Jackson
> 
> Funny that they let that out of the factory - there's no way they didn't see the defect right away. The neck hasn't moved and otherwise it's spot on. Well, that was less of a hassle than my other CS Soloist (2017), that a has a too shallow a neck angle.
> 
> I suppose Jackson would have corrected those mistakes had they been new (they did stress the fact that I wasn't the first owner) and I will reserve my judgment for now. But how long are you prepared to wait for your dream guitar, then



I'd say the rage inducing aspect of Jackson, is the rate and speed that they produce Artist guitars but customers paying full price always get shafted timeline wise. That's why I never ordered a custom Jackson in the first place, although I'd still love a Kelly or Death Kelly eventually.

Combined with the wait, the negative situations, and how they handled them (3 month wait vs reality of ???). Even if they had a "return policy", that guaranteed I could return something no questions asked. In the same way I feel about Kiesel, I would still elect to not order from them regardless of the percentage of positive experiences.


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## dmlinger

You guys remember that guy who claimed he reached out to the Jackson Custom Shop to commission a left handed Juggernaut? They said they wouldn't do it, but he was persistent, so they said it would be some absurd amount of money? $7K or something like that. 

Dude was trolling the shit out of the people on SSO trying to talk him out of it. Then he disappeared or got banned. 

Yeah...


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## chipchappy

dmlinger said:


> You guys remember that guy who claimed he reached out to the Jackson Custom Shop to commission a left handed Juggernaut? They said they wouldn't do it, but he was persistent, so they said it would be some absurd amount of money? $7K or something like that.
> 
> Dude was trolling the shit out of the people on SSO trying to talk him out of it. Then he disappeared or got banned.
> 
> Yeah...



If I'm not mistaken he actually showed up on Mishas Twitch stream the other day and said he didn't go through with it. I can't remember the details clearly but either he had it built and then sold it immediately after or he backed out mid build and someone else ended up buying it. 

That was almost as entertaining as this thread!


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## oneblackened

Velokki said:


> I'll have to chime in here.
> In my local marketplace, there is a brand new Jackson Custom Shop Soloist for sale. Made in 2019 if I'm not mistaken. The text on it says "The frets were changed and redone by X (a reputable local luthier), the original frets were surprisingly bad".
> 
> Imagine that - having frets changed on your _brand new Jackson CUSTOM SHOP_ guitar, because they were bad. I mean - that wouldn't occur to me ever on my LTD guitars or even my new Ibanez Premium.
> 
> Examples like these just scare me away forever from Jackson.


Yup. Jackson's been an absolute shitshow for years. It's not just Kiesel that I have a problem with, it's any custom shop that charges $$$$$$ for a custom instrument and proceeds to totally cock it up.


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## Velokki

Jackson is just unbelievable. Super shoddy QC, and they charge 5200$ for this:
https://www.jacksonguitars.com/gear/guitars/usa-signature-jeff-loomis-kelly/2803031803

*5200$!
*
Based on what exactly? How on earth would you not get that for 1500-2000$? Or 3000$? And then the QC is in the 500$ import guitar territory...


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## dmlinger

Velokki said:


> Jackson is just unbelievable. Super shoddy QC, and they charge 5200$ for this:
> https://www.jacksonguitars.com/gear/guitars/usa-signature-jeff-loomis-kelly/2803031803
> 
> *5200$!
> *
> Based on what exactly? How on earth would you not get that for 1500-2000$? Or 3000$? And then the QC is in the 500$ import guitar territory...


 
How do you know the QC is on par with a $500 import? Is this based on experience, or anecdotal? 

I do agree the price is steep. A lot of the price is likely due to the royalty Loomis will receive for each unit sold. A standard USA Kelly is $3,000, so I'd expect this model to be more in line with Misha's USA which retails for around $3,800.


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## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Well I won't comment on the Jackson custom shop to avoid antagonizing some people even further, but some of those newer and higher end Ibanez Premiums (especially those with stainless steel frets) have surprisingly good fretwork from the factory. Not the _prettiest _or even-_looking _out there (you can see some tool marks here or there). But well put together, crowned, even feeling, and no sharp ends. Actually even puts some Prestige guitars to shame..



I don't owe Jackson a thing, and I have too much self respect to defend them for page after page and _not_ get paid for it. Feel free to criticize all you want—it's warranted in many cases. You could even start a Jackson hate thread if you want (although it would hurt the deflection and whataboutism going on here). I probably wouldn't get a new Custom Select since they don't even offer 7s, and couldn't order a Masterbuilt even if I wanted to (which I likely wouldn't even if I could). You've officially warn me down, I'm not going to respond to you anymore. 



Velokki said:


> Jackson is just unbelievable. Super shoddy QC, and they charge 5200$ for this:
> https://www.jacksonguitars.com/gear/guitars/usa-signature-jeff-loomis-kelly/2803031803
> 
> *5200$!
> *
> Based on what exactly? How on earth would you not get that for 1500-2000$? Or 3000$? And then the QC is in the 500$ import guitar territory...



I'm doubt anyone is actually paying that much, but I wouldn't pay half that price for something with a 1500 series Floyd. I think Jeff said he wanted that because of the push-in arm or something, so fine, and you can obviously get OFRs on Jacksons that are half that price, but that alone would have turned me off if I liked it in the first place.


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## Velokki

dmlinger said:


> How do you know the QC is on par with a $500 import? Is this based on experience, or anecdotal?
> 
> I do agree the price is steep. A lot of the price is likely due to the royalty Loomis will receive for each unit sold. A standard USA Kelly is $3,000, so I'd expect this model to be more in line with Misha's USA which retails for around $3,800.



I have one friend who had a Jackson USA Misha Mansoor. This was 3 years ago. The neck pocket was far from perfect and two of the highest frets were sharp. There was also one fret, which was not 100% level.
I tried one of the USA Mishas in Andertons and the frets were sharp all around.

Then add multiple Custom Shop horror stories from lately (yes, on the Internet, so they might be fake or overblown... but probably not), and I would deem that their QC is shoddy.

As a little contrast ; tell me how many horror stories have you heard lately of the ESP Custom Shop or Aristides? Compare their quality to their prices. That's why I find Jackson to be way out of touch these days.


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## Jake

Velokki said:


> I have one friend who had a Jackson USA Misha Mansoor. This was 3 years ago. The neck pocket was far from perfect and two of the highest frets were sharp. There was also one fret, which was not 100% level.
> I tried one of the USA Mishas in Andertons and the frets were sharp all around.
> 
> Then add multiple Custom Shop horror stories from lately (yes, on the Internet, so they might be fake or overblown... but probably not), and I would deem that their QC is shoddy.
> 
> As a little contrast ; tell me how many horror stories have you heard lately of the ESP Custom Shop or Aristides? Compare their quality to their prices. That's why I find Jackson to be way out of touch these days.


Frets are sharp on my USA Misha. Not like "rip my hands open sharp" but definitely not "pushing $4k guitar QC" level either. I may get it Plek'd at some point down the road but we'll see.


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## mbardu

xzacx said:


> I don't owe Jackson a thing, and I have too much self respect to defend them for page after page and _not_ get paid for it. Feel free to criticize all you want—it's warranted in many cases. You could even start a Jackson hate thread if you want (although it would hurt the deflection and whataboutism going on here). I probably wouldn't get a new Custom Select since they don't even offer 7s, and couldn't order a Masterbuilt even if I wanted to (which I likely wouldn't even if I could). You've officially warn me down, I'm not going to respond to you anymore.



You certainly seem pretty pissed, while I have tried to be honest and polite with you.
I did by the way answer all your points methodically on the previous page (some of which were pretty heavy with double standards but I still addressed) to give you the benefits of the doubt that you would at least try to reciprocate. But it's clear now that the "I'm not going to respond to you anymore" cop out is way easier. I don't know why you keep doing the same thing by the way, it's like the 3rd time... Jump in to attack me or Kiesel with no new good reason, hoping you'll get a cheap "gotcha", then disappear when your points are answered? What for?

Anyway, I have no hate for Jackson. I'm not the one adding new things here now, I only quoted a couple of examples _because you asked me to_. And I miss my USA Kellys so much that it's almost guaranteed I'll get another one in the future. I was just pointing out that return policy and customizability is not one of their pros when compared to Kiesel, but even simple things like that are too much apparently. You have to say that Kiesel does everything worse than everyone else, even on objective things, otherwise you're a shill- is that right? I don't know how people cannot see the lack of objectivity.


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## mbardu

Velokki said:


> As a little contrast ; tell me how many horror stories have you heard lately of the ESP Custom Shop or Aristides? Compare their quality to their prices. That's why I find Jackson to be way out of touch these days.



I mean the answer to that is obviously 0, and anyone who spends the $$$ to go for those options (and is ready to waaaaaaiiiiiit in the case of the former) is certain to get a great instrument. 100% agreed!


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## Spicypickles

Jake said:


> Frets are sharp on my USA Misha. Not like "rip my hands open sharp" but definitely not "pushing $4k guitar QC" level either. I may get it Plek'd at some point down the road but we'll see.



A plek won’t address the fret ends, FYI.


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## 1b4n3z

Jake said:


> Frets are sharp on my USA Misha. Not like "rip my hands open sharp" but definitely not "pushing $4k guitar QC" level either. I may get it Plek'd at some point down the road but we'll see.



They were sharp on my CS Soloist as well, but definitely not long enough to rip my hand open


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## Jake

Spicypickles said:


> A plek won’t address the fret ends, FYI.


Huh, yeah realizing that now. Always figured that was one of the parts of it. Okay well then I guess they just need an end dressing. It's not terrible like on some guitars I've played but compared to my other guitars in the same price range it's noticeable. Hell the LTD-DJ600 I have on my lap right now is miles better and I got it for $200 so it's just weird that on a $3k USA Jackson the fret ends are neglected. Fantastic guitar, plays great but shoddy QC regardless from Jackson.


----------



## mastapimp

Velokki said:


> Jackson is just unbelievable. Super shoddy QC, and they charge 5200$ for this:
> https://www.jacksonguitars.com/gear/guitars/usa-signature-jeff-loomis-kelly/2803031803
> 
> *5200$!
> *
> Based on what exactly? How on earth would you not get that for 1500-2000$? Or 3000$? And then the QC is in the 500$ import guitar territory...



1.) it's a limited edition from their custom shop (they also offer a pro version in the $1200-1400 range)
2.) that's not the price you'd pay if you were to ask a dealer

Expect to pay just under $4K for that model. 

Somebody point me to the "Jackson -- Never Again!!" thread.


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## dmlinger

Velokki said:


> I have one friend who had a Jackson USA Misha Mansoor. This was 3 years ago. The neck pocket was far from perfect and two of the highest frets were sharp. There was also one fret, which was not 100% level.
> I tried one of the USA Mishas in Andertons and the frets were sharp all around.
> 
> Then add multiple Custom Shop horror stories from lately (yes, on the Internet, so they might be fake or overblown... but probably not), and I would deem that their QC is shoddy.
> 
> As a little contrast ; tell me how many horror stories have you heard lately of the ESP Custom Shop or Aristides? Compare their quality to their prices. That's why I find Jackson to be way out of touch these days.



I don't disagree, was genuinely curious about the QC. I've never been in the market for a Jackson Custom, so wanted to know. I would have assumed they were top notch since they are part of the Fender family, and the Fender Custom Shop is pure class.


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## mbardu

Wait wait wait....let me click the "enhance" button here



1b4n3z said:


> They were sharp on my CS Soloist as well, but definitely not long enough to rip my hand open






Are the frets seated so poorly that the freaking tool fits under the freaking frets??
Are you saying this was a CS Soloist?

With the benefits of the doubt, I'll assume this was during a refret process, so the frets were already supposed to be halfway off? But if so why are the strings on?


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## Carl Kolchak

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Also I want to ask. How many people in this thread have actually even ordered or owned a Kiesel? Not Carvin. Kiesel. I feel like people jump on the hate wagon because it is where they get the most attention.



I own a DC700 which I bought used. Showed up in immaculate condition, and played perfectly out of the case. No buzzing or sharp fret ends, and the thing hardly ever needs tuning. The only thing I don't like on it are the stock pups, which I'm in the process of replacing now with a BKP VHII.


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## spudmunkey

Carl Kolchak said:


> The only thing I don't like on it are the stock pups, which I'm in the process of replacing now with a BKP VHII.



Be careful with the pickup mounting screws. For some reason, for the last 6 months or so, there seems to be an epidemic of people not paying close enough attention, and driving too-long screws through the back of their guitar. Like...even "techs" getting paid to swap the pickups.


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## bzhang9

I would 100% trust sending money to Kiesel over smaller "reputable on SSO" custom builders. They're a big company now, internet is a huge part of their business, they'll never take your money and run and if you make a big enough deal about it on the internet they'll probably rebuild anything to avoid negative PR.


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## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Be careful with the pickup mounting screws. For some reason, for the last 6 months or so, there seems to be an epidemic of people not paying close enough attention, and driving too-long screws through the back of their guitar. Like...even "techs" getting paid to swap the pickups.



That's very good piece of advice, although I don't think I've seen this on neck-throughs.
Mostly on Aries and Vanquish, which do have pretty thin bodies under the routes.


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## Carl Kolchak

spudmunkey said:


> Be careful with the pickup mounting screws. For some reason, for the last 6 months or so, there seems to be an epidemic of people not paying close enough attention, and driving too-long screws through the back of their guitar. Like...even "techs" getting paid to swap the pickups.


The guy who's doing the work for me told he's going to need to open the pup cavity just a little bit to get the BKP to fit. Otherwise he saw no structural flaws inside it. 

Guess I got lucky, and ended up with a halfway decent Kiesel.


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## spudmunkey

Carl Kolchak said:


> The guy who's doing the work for me told he's going to need to open the pup cavity just a little bit to get the BKP to fit. Otherwise he saw no structural flaws inside it.
> 
> Guess I got lucky, and ended up with a halfway decent Kiesel.



I think it's more that Kiesel's pickups are built differently than some others (I'm not clear how...haven't looked into it), and using the screws that came with new pickups are too long, and end up poking through the back of the body.

From someone's post in the Facebook group:
"the flat baseplate design of the kiesel stock pickups uses longer length screws than pickups with industry standard baseplates... when i changed mine i ran to the "mom and pops" music shop and was lucky to find 1/4 shorter screws with the same threads- i believe they are stew-mac..."

Also, a meme titled "every time":


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## mbardu

Carl Kolchak said:


> Guess I got lucky, and ended up with a halfway decent Kiesel.



Naah- it's the other way around.
If we're talking about the quality of the instruments themselves (not customer service or Jeff), you have to be very _unlucky _to get a problematic one.
But again, don't take my word for it, if you google "Kiesel NGD" or something and judge the proportion of good vs bad, that should give at least _some _anecdotal evidence.

Funny thing is that if you search about now, you may actually see one "disappointing NGD" in the first page of Google results. And looking into it, it's exactly one of the kind of cases that were discussed earlier: a non-returnable guitar, that the owner admits is great by absolutely all measures, but is not 100% happy with how it looks.

Anyway, saw your guitar earlier. Looks like you're definitely enjoying it !


----------



## kisielk

IMO for the option 50 stuff it would be best if they just charged a restock fee equal to the option price. They already do that for the Fishman Fluence option, if you buy a guitar with Fishmans and then decide to return it then there's a restock fee equal to the price of the upgrade.


----------



## cip 123

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's more that Kiesel's pickups are built differently than some others (I'm not clear how...haven't looked into it), and using the screws that came with new pickups are too long, and end up poking through the back of the body.
> 
> From someone's post in the Facebook group:
> "the flat baseplate design of the kiesel stock pickups uses longer length screws than pickups with industry standard baseplates... when i changed mine i ran to the "mom and pops" music shop and was lucky to find 1/4 shorter screws with the same threads- i believe they are stew-mac..."
> 
> Also, a meme titled "every time":


Tbh I thought this was just about the neck joint before I read the context


----------



## 1b4n3z

mbardu said:


> Are the frets seated so poorly that the freaking tool fits under the freaking frets??
> Are you saying this was a CS Soloist?



That pic was shot before any work had started on it 
Frets were sitting just fine in the middle, just the ends were sticking up like that. Every fret, both ends. The fretboard radius was very close to spec, so the conclusion was wrong radius frets. (Frets were too short as well, for some reason)


----------



## mbardu

1b4n3z said:


> That pic was shot before any work had started on it
> Frets were sitting just fine in the middle, just the ends were sticking up like that. Every fret, both ends. The fretboard radius was very close to spec, so the conclusion was wrong radius frets. (Frets were too short as well, for some reason)



Guitar...delivered...with...wrong...radius...frets...


----------



## prlgmnr

mbardu said:


> Guitar...delivered...with...wrong...radius...frets...


but the correct _number_ of frets so that's something


----------



## _MonSTeR_

mbardu said:


> Wait wait wait....let me click the "enhance" button here
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 81448



Houston, we have lift off!!


----------



## SamSam

A friend of mine used to own one of the USA made Bulb models, the build itself was fine, but the guitar was lifeless! Even acoustically the body would barely resonate, it was rather disappointing for a guitar in that price range. I own a Japanese 90s Kelly which is fucking incredible though, almost on par with my ESP Custom shop and definitely up there with my top tier instruments!


----------



## Jeff

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's more that Kiesel's pickups are built differently than some others (I'm not clear how...haven't looked into it), and using the screws that came with new pickups are too long, and end up poking through the back of the body.
> 
> From someone's post in the Facebook group:
> "the flat baseplate design of the kiesel stock pickups uses longer length screws than pickups with industry standard baseplates... when i changed mine i ran to the "mom and pops" music shop and was lucky to find 1/4 shorter screws with the same threads- i believe they are stew-mac..."
> 
> Also, a meme titled "every time":



“Micro-Chambering Patented Process”


----------



## spudmunkey

"Vampire's Kiss" pickup installation


----------



## iamaom

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's more that Kiesel's pickups are built differently than some others


I have the default pups in both my Vaders so I'm not sure if it's true anymore, but I know that Carvin pickups were ever so slightly smaller than standard but not enough to be visible to the naked eye; in order to put in aftermarkets you had to shave down the edges of the routing by a few cm.


----------



## oversteve

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's more that Kiesel's pickups are built differently than some others (I'm not clear how...haven't looked into it), and using the screws that came with new pickups are too long, and end up poking through the back of the body.
> 
> From someone's post in the Facebook group:
> "the flat baseplate design of the kiesel stock pickups uses longer length screws than pickups with industry standard baseplates... when i changed mine i ran to the "mom and pops" music shop and was lucky to find 1/4 shorter screws with the same threads- i believe they are stew-mac..."
> 
> Also, a meme titled "every time":


dimarzio 7, 8 string and some of the recent 6 string oem pups are built the same way


----------



## Dayn

iamaom said:


> I have the default pups in both my Vaders so I'm not sure if it's true anymore, but I know that Carvin pickups were ever so slightly smaller than standard but not enough to be visible to the naked eye; in order to put in aftermarkets you had to shave down the edges of the routing by a few cm.


Millimetres, surely? Centimetres would be a hacksaw-grade modification.


----------



## iamaom

Dayn said:


> Millimetres, surely? Centimetres would be a hacksaw-grade modification.


Leave me alone I'm American.


----------



## Thaeon

iamaom said:


> Leave me alone I'm American.





There were still hacksaw-grade Carvin mods that happened...


----------



## AxRookie

Science_Penguin said:


> Never underestimate the human need to get the last word.


Word...


----------



## maliciousteve

soliloquy said:


> Many years ago, like maybe over a decade ago, there was someone named Rob_l that was buying carvin guitars every other day, it seemed. I think Carvin did end up sending him a guitar or two for free. Not sure what happened to him, or that relationship after



Having come across a picture of a custom Jackson Rob owned, I've found out that Rob actually passed away in Jan 2018 sadly.


----------



## spudmunkey

maliciousteve said:


> Having come across a picture of a custom Jackson Rob owned, I've found out that Rob actually passed away in Jan 2018 sadly.



Oh, shit.  That sucks. I feel like I remember hearing he was sick (cancer of some sort). I remember he had a young kid, and his time spent with him was the name if his music project...September Sundays, or something like that. December Tuesdaysm something like that.


----------



## mlp187

maliciousteve said:


> Having come across a picture of a custom Jackson Rob owned, I've found out that Rob actually passed away in Jan 2018 sadly.


Fuck that sucks.


----------



## MaxOfMetal




----------



## technomancer

maliciousteve said:


> Having come across a picture of a custom Jackson Rob owned, I've found out that Rob actually passed away in Jan 2018 sadly.



Ah damn that sucks... I knew he had been battling cancer but last I saw he was in remission


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, shit.  That sucks. I feel like I remember hearing he was sick (cancer of some sort). I remember he had a young kid, and his time spent with him was the name if his music project...September Sundays, or something like that. December Tuesdaysm something like that.



Geeez that last part makes it even worse


----------



## Alberto7

maliciousteve said:


> Having come across a picture of a custom Jackson Rob owned, I've found out that Rob actually passed away in Jan 2018 sadly.



Well this sucks to hear. I never really got to interact with the man, but I do remember seeing a ton of his pictures and reading his posts when I was still lurking SSO before joining in 2010. His collection is part of the reason that my first (and only) 7-string is a DC727. May he rest in peace now.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Man that sucks.  I loved all of Rob's NGD threads, certainly inspired a lot of us here. RIP.


----------



## Thrashman

On the topic of sharp fret ends - this is due to wood moving when shipped to a country or state with a different climate, not necessarily a building or QC flaw. 

Anyway, it takes like 5 minutes to sort out and even a chimp could learn how to do it in well under half an hour with pristine results.


----------



## kisielk

Just ordered my third Kiesel on Friday, should be here next week (from the in-stock section)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Thrashman said:


> On the topic of sharp fret ends - this is due to wood moving when shipped to a country or state with a different climate, not necessarily a building or QC flaw.
> 
> Anyway, it takes like 5 minutes to sort out and even a chimp could learn how to do it in well under half an hour with pristine results.


The issue usually is lack of tools.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The issue usually is lack of tools.



You don't need anything special. Just a <$10 file, some masking tape, some micromesh, and a polish cloth. Easily under $20 all together and available at any hardware/home improvement store. 

But, it's 2020 and folks are still afaird of touching the truss rod, look at changing strings as a major life decision, and hate tuning.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> You don't need anything special. Just a <$10 file, some masking tape, some micromesh, and a polish cloth. Easily under $20 all together and available at any hardware/home improvement store.
> 
> But, it's 2020 and folks are still afaird of touching the truss rod, look at changing strings as a major life decision, and hate tuning.


Well, chances are if they haven't done it before, I don't have the tools, or possibly even know what they need. But yeah, as far as frets go, it is one of the easier mods to do yourself. Leveling, dressing, crowning, etc. is much more daunting for beginners.

But I agree. You need to make sure your truss rod is at least engaged, even if you don't need to adjust the relief of the neck. Plus a dual truss rod might throw someone off if they haven't messed with many.


----------



## Amenthea

MaxOfMetal said:


> But, it's 2020 and folks are still afaird of touching the truss rod, look at changing strings as a major life decision, and hate tuning.



I feel personally attacked lol Been playing since 92, think I've got over 20 guitars but I've never touched a truss rod. Actually scared of the things, and I've gone out and brought another guitar rather than try and sort the action/neck out myself on occasion.
However, whilst in lockdown I started buying the tools for checking action and adjusting the rod and I've spent a few days on you tube seeing how the pro's do it. Old dogs can learn....


----------



## spudmunkey

My car once ran out of gas. I bought a new car wheni got tired of calling AAA any time I needed to go up hill.

(no, I didn't make that up...I think it's an old Dilbert joke...)


----------



## Amenthea

spudmunkey said:


> My car once ran out of gas. I bought a new car wheni got tired of calling AAA any time I needed to go up hill.
> 
> (no, I didn't make that up...I think it's an old Dilbert joke...)



You could of at least quoted me in it if you were going to take the piss


----------



## gunshow86de

So are they ever going to add the Leia to the website? They announced it like a month ago. I'm almost certainly going to order one. I know you can phone order, but I don't want to sit on the phone for an hour playing around with options/specs. That's sort of the point of the builder I thought.


----------



## xzacx

gunshow86de said:


> So are they ever going to add the Leia to the website? They announced it like a month ago. I'm almost certainly going to order one. I know you can phone order, but I don't want to sit on the phone for an hour playing around with options/specs. That's sort of the point of the builder I thought.



Nah, not Kiesel, they'd rather have you call in 2020 than have an updated and fully functional site that looks like it was designed in the last decade.


----------



## Avedas

Why not just email? That's how I've done all my orders.


----------



## spudmunkey

Just use the Vader builder. Pricing and options are all the same. The only thing different are the scale length options. Leia doesnt have multi or 27" scale options if I understand correctly, but does have 24.75" scale option.


----------



## bracky

I was honestly on the phone for less then 5 minutes putting in my last order.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

After 185 pages, is the thread title still relevant or should we just rename it as "Kiesel thread"? I understand this started out as a very specific complaint case, but that was 185 pages ago. Just a suggestion...



xzacx said:


> Nah, not Kiesel, they'd rather have you call in 2020 than have an updated and fully functional site that looks like it was designed in the last decade.



Their site does look dated, but I've never had a problem with it. Made countless builds and placed two orders (which were fulfilled on time without a hitch). Webmaster even answered my email within a few hours. Ymmv...


----------



## xzacx

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Their site does look dated, but I've never had a problem with it. Made countless builds and placed two orders (which were fulfilled on time without a hitch). Webmaster even answered my email within a few hours. Ymmv...



I mean, the guy I quoted said he still can't order something that's been out for a month—I'm not sure how that's worth defending the website over. The brand itself even advocates for calling rather than using the site. It's not that you can't order from it, but when the whole appeal of Kiesel is based on its customization—yet you can only order some of the models with some of the options—it's surprising that more of a priority hasn't been placed updating it. It would obviously be a big expense to update and maintain it properly, but it seems like there's a lot to gain by allowing people to access the full benefits of getting a Kiesel on the platform that the modern world operates in.


----------



## Avedas

Creating an easily maintainable configurator is almost a trivial problem. Their gallery search could use an overhaul as well. They could throw $500 at a college student and have both of those done in a weekend.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> After 185 pages, is the thread title still relevant or should we just rename it as "Kiesel thread"? I understand this started out as a very specific complaint case, but that was 185 pages ago. Just a suggestion...
> 
> 
> 
> Their site does look dated, but I've never had a problem with it. Made countless builds and placed two orders (which were fulfilled on time without a hitch). Webmaster even answered my email within a few hours. Ymmv...



We have a "regular" Kiesel/Carvin thread here: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/

Unfortunately, this brand seems divisive enough to need a thread just to steer complaints from the original thread.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Good point @MaxOfMetal. It makes total sense.

@Avedas : From a coding standpoint I totally agree. It’s not like it’s quantum cryptography.



xzacx said:


> I mean, the guy I quoted said he still can't order something that's been out for a month—I'm not sure how that's worth defending the website over. The brand itself even advocates for calling rather than using the site. It's not that you can't order from it, but when the whole appeal of Kiesel is based on its customization—yet you can only order some of the models with some of the options—it's surprising that more of a priority hasn't been placed updating it. It would obviously be a big expense to update and maintain it properly, but it seems like there's a lot to gain by allowing people to access the full benefits of getting a Kiesel on the platform that the modern world operates in.



I wasn’t challenging your or anyone’s claims, just giving my anecdotal experience.


----------



## spudmunkey

Avedas said:


> Creating an easily maintainable configurator is almost a trivial problem. Their gallery search could use an overhaul as well. They could throw $500 at a college student and have both of those done in a weekend.



From their perspective: They are already running at maximum capacity, basically, with a "meh" (their word...) website, call-ins, and some email.

In all honesty, i wouldn't be suprised if they almost dropped the website ordering, and went to an all-phone/email quote system some day.

But going back to updating the website, making a virtual builder, etc...that'd all be a marketing expense, for which they could see little return....because they simply can't capitalize on it. They haven't sent out a catalog since 2015. They have one print ad left, in Vintage Guitar magazine. Their entire marketing is their A&R, and their social media presence, which is very very strong....and that's gotten them to where they are today: record sales.

Even if they couldn't capitalize on the potential growth, would it make their customers happier? Could it streamline their operations on their end? Yes to both...but at least for the short-term, I could see how they could legitimately say they don't need it (and by "it", i mean "to spend the large chunk of money that would see little ROI").

What we don't know, is: of their ~4,000 orders per year, how many are online orders? And of the ones that aren't, how many are call-ins simple because the person can't figure out the website, or can't find the options they are looking for (even if they are indeed not a non-returnable option)? An updated website would shift some of those numbers around a bit, but without the raw date, we can only guess as to their rationalizations.

But...another issue is errors. In 2008 when i ordered my first Carvin, I ordered online, and recommended it for years over calling in because most of the errors we saw seemed to be communication errors between the customer, the salesperson, and the computer. However, in recent years, i've flipped. There are too many ways that the online builder is confusing (at best) and lays traps that could have someone paying twice for an option.

Confusing traps: ordering a neck-through in black? Then it shouldn't show you a $40 black headstock paint option, because that's how your guitar will come standard. Why does the builder make you select "body and neck wood" as one option, and then an upgraded neck in the next? You might think that if you want a mahogany and maple 5-piece neck that you have to select a mahogany neck on the first page, then upgrade to the mahog maple on the next...but you'd be paying for the mahogany twice.

Errors: Then there's the cookies/cache issue which can cause errors in your shopping cart. If you configure too many guitars in a session without clearing your browser's cookies/cache, or have multiple guitars in your cart, it can sometimes drop off or add on options, or double-list some, screwing with the totals and specs. I just can't recommend it any longer to anyone but the most dedicated "experts" who can navigate those issues.


----------



## xzacx

spudmunkey said:


> From their perspective: They are already running at maximum capacity, basically, with a "meh" (their word...) website, call-ins, and some email.
> 
> In all honesty, i wouldn't be suprised if they almost dropped the website ordering, and went to an all-phone/email quote system some day.
> 
> But going back to updating the website, making a virtual builder, etc...that'd all be a marketing expense, for which they could see little return....because they simply can't capitalize on it. They haven't sent out a catalog since 2015. They have one print ad left, in Vintage Guitar magazine. Their entire marketing is their A&R, and their social media presence, which is very very strong....and that's gotten them to where they are today: record sales.
> 
> Even if they couldn't capitalize on the potential growth, would it make their customers happier? Could it streamline their operations on their end? Yes to both...but at least for the short-term, I could see how they could legitimately say they don't need it (and by "it", i mean "to spend the large chunk of money that would see little ROI").
> 
> What we don't know, is: of their ~4,000 orders per year, how many are online orders? And of the ones that aren't, how many are call-ins simple because the person can't figure out the website, or can't find the options they are looking for (even if they are indeed not a non-returnable option)? An updated website would shift some of those numbers around a bit, but without the raw date, we can only guess as to their rationalizations.
> 
> But...another issue is errors. In 2008 when i ordered my first Carvin, I ordered online, and recommended it for years over calling in because most of the errors we saw seemed to be communication errors between the customer, the salesperson, and the computer. However, in recent years, i've flipped. There are too many ways that the online builder is confusing (at best) and lays traps that could have someone paying twice for an option.
> 
> Confusing traps: ordering a neck-through in black? Then it shouldn't show you a $40 black headstock paint option, because that's how your guitar will come standard. Why does the builder make you select "body and neck wood" as one option, and then an upgraded neck in the next? You might think that if you want a mahogany and maple 5-piece neck that you have to select a mahogany neck on the first page, then upgrade to the mahog maple on the next...but you'd be paying for the mahogany twice.
> 
> Errors: Then there's the cookies/cache issue which can cause errors in your shopping cart. If you configure too many guitars in a session without clearing your browser's cookies/cache, or have multiple guitars in your cart, it can sometimes drop off or add on options, or double-list some, screwing with the totals and specs. I just can't recommend it any longer to anyone but the most dedicated "experts" who can navigate those issues.



I very much agree with this. I imagine the lack of urgency has a lot to do with feeling they're doing fine as-is, so no big need to change. And if their sales are as good as they say, who am I to criticize? Still, I have to think that a more functional and modern site would benefit both the customers and company in the long run. I'll probably come some day, but it's not surprising it's not a priority.


----------



## mbardu

It's not a priority, they have record sales as it stands, and the magical "live builder" that a lot for people are clamoring for is specifically something that I don't think they should do.
Having a nice guitar builder with the looks updating as you spec the guitar sounds nice on paper, but I can already see the heartache and hundreds of complaints that this would cause down the road.
We have already seen how people can be unhappy with a top that doesn't look like they imagined in their head, so if you add to that the expectation from a sample image grabbed from a generic builder, that definitely won't end well. Since they use actual wood and not rolls of 2$ veneers, the looks will never be the same as what you can show in a virtual builder.
And yeah, they could add a disclaimer to that end, but we all know that they _do add disclaimers_ on non-returnable instruments already, and yet it doesn't prevent people from thinking disclaimers don't apply to them. For example people that are upset that they cannot return their guitar with a figured top and custom finish when it shows up looking different from what they pictured 

PS: For something custom to match their business model (not talking about those cookie-cutter prepackaged websites), sure anyone skilled with Web Dev could whip up a prototype of an upgraded website in a weekend or two... But something truly functional for production for thousand of users, actually secure for purchases, and solid in the face of future maintenance, then no way. If you can do that for 500$ then you're the cheapest on the market by a couple of orders of magnitude. This would be a real job that they have no interest in at the moment.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> It's not a priority, they have record sales as it stands, and the magical "live builder" that a lot for people are clamoring for is specifically something that I don't think they should do.
> Having a nice guitar builder with the looks updating as you spec the guitar sounds nice on paper, but I can already see the heartache and hundreds of complaints that this would cause down the road.
> We have already seen how people can be unhappy with a top that doesn't look like they imagined in their head, so if you add to that the expectation from a sample image grabbed from a generic builder, that definitely won't end well. Since they use actual wood and not rolls of 2$ veneers, the looks will never be the same as what you can show in a virtual builder.
> And yeah, they could add a disclaimer to that end, but we all know that they _do add disclaimers_ on non-returnable instruments already, and yet it doesn't prevent people from thinking disclaimers don't apply to them. For example people that are upset that they cannot return their guitar with a figured top and custom finish when it shows up looking different from what they pictured
> 
> PS: For something custom to match their business model (not talking about those cookie-cutter prepackaged websites), sure anyone skilled with Web Dev could whip up a prototype of an upgraded website in a weekend or two... But something truly functional for production for thousand of users, actually secure for purchases, and solid in the face of future maintenance, then no way. If you can do that for 500$ then you're the cheapest on the market by a couple of orders of magnitude. This would be a real job that they have no interest in at the moment.



I wouldn't be surprised if a "virtual builder" never came to be, and could definitely invite problems—very possibly being more trouble than it's worth (and it would definitely not be cheap). But I also think there's something between that and the current site that would be beneficial. Just a more modern version of what they have now that allows people to spec things with updated options without the quirks that @spudmunkey mentioned seems like a positive for everyone, and I think it'll happen eventually.


----------



## Jeff

There’s no excuse for their website. It’s a pile of shit that could be fixed by a couple college grads. Some of you guys are really overestimating the difficulty in building out a form that allows for preventing conflicting options, and just pushing an order through. Forget the virtual builder. Just update the site, and put all the options available to each model in a modern builder.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Do folks really have that hard of a time with the current site? 

It's not "great", but I've never really had a problem clicking the boxes, and I'm an idiot. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Jeff said:


> There’s no excuse for their website. It’s a pile of shit that could be fixed by a couple college grads. Some of you guys are really overestimating the difficulty in building out a form that allows for preventing conflicting options, and just pushing an order through. Forget the virtual builder. Just update the site, and put all the options available to each model in a modern builder.


exactly. goddamn Halo has had a killer virtual builder for YEARS. Balaguer hired the same guy to do theirs and it's a good intuitive builder, plus it'a easy for them to update with options . If Kiesel actually gave a shit they could be in the same boat.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> Do folks really have that hard of a time with the current site?
> 
> It's not "great", but I've never really had a problem clicking the boxes, and I'm an idiot.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



It doesnt help that they rarely update verbiage. It still says Raw Tone Satin can only be had on ash but that isnt true anymore. Same with the "must order top" line for the Rear Natural Clear option. 

Try to build an Aries or something, and select "quilted maple top". On the next page, select "clear gloss". Just click all the way through without selecting any other options, and your total doesnt reflect the $400 quilted maple charge. Cool, right? But...it also doesnt show the quilted maple in the specs. Oh. You have to select the "Deep Clear" finish, which is the $400 finish option if you want a clear quilted maple top. Not exactly logical, even thought they've offered quilted maple tops for 28 years.

And to be clear, nobody here is defending it. If it seems like it, read it again and realize we're just saying what we imagine the rationalization is for it's current state.


----------



## ryanougrad

Since we are harping on their builder. Is it possible to get one of their neck throughs (Crescent, DC600) with 22 frets. It’s not an option in their lame builder. I can’t just ring them up being on a 14 hour time difference. How hard is it really for them to have a builder like Balaguer.


----------



## spudmunkey

ryanougrad said:


> Since we are harping on their builder. Is it possible to get one of their neck throughs (Crescent, DC600) with 22 frets. It’s not an option in their lame builder. I can’t just ring them up being on a 14 hour time difference. How hard is it really for them to have a builder like Balaguer.



It's not on the builder because it's not availble. A builder like Balaguer's wouldnt help here. 

They do not have any 22-fret neck-through models.

The Crescent is not a neck through. It's a "set through", which is basically a very deep set neck. The neck's tenon stops just shy of the bridge pickup. The Crescent isnt availble in 22 feet.

The only 22 fret models availble are the Delos, Theos, HD, CT6 carved top, CS3, CS6, Solo, and a handfull of semihollows.

A 14 hour time difference means a 10-hour time difference. You could call at 7:00am or 11pm and both would cross over their posted hours by at least 1/2 hour.


----------



## ryanougrad

spudmunkey said:


> It's not on the builder because it's not availble. A builder like Balaguer's wouldnt help here.
> 
> They do not have any 22-fret neck-through models.
> 
> The Crescent is not a neck through. It's a "set through", which is basically a very deep set neck. The neck's tenon stops just shy of the bridge pickup. The Crescent isnt availble in 22 feet.
> 
> The only 22 fret models availble are the Delos, Theos, HD, CT6 carved top, CS3, CS6, Solo, and a handfull of semihollows.
> 
> A 14 hour time difference means a 10-hour time difference. You could call at 7:00am or 11pm and both would cross over their posted hours by at least 1/2 hour.



Well, no need to call, that don't have what I want. 

FYI Balaguer does let me change number of frets, neck style etc. Their builder is super easy.


----------



## spudmunkey

ryanougrad said:


> Well, no need to call, that don't have what I want.
> 
> FYI Balaguer does let me change number of frets, neck style etc. Their builder is super easy.



Even Balaguer's cool builder doesnt let you do that on every model, so it's still up to what they want to offer. With neck construction, Kiesel only offers one model that comes in both bolt on and neck through (Aries and Aries Neck Through). It launched just in the last couple of weeks, and they treat it almost like a different model entirely.

Up until I think 2013, they used to offer a 22-fret neck through. It was called the DC150 (not to be confused with an earlier model by the same name that was set neck.)


----------



## Avedas

spudmunkey said:


> From their perspective: They are already running at maximum capacity, basically, with a "meh" (their word...) website, call-ins, and some email.
> 
> In all honesty, i wouldn't be suprised if they almost dropped the website ordering, and went to an all-phone/email quote system some day.
> 
> But going back to updating the website, making a virtual builder, etc...that'd all be a marketing expense, for which they could see little return....because they simply can't capitalize on it. They haven't sent out a catalog since 2015. They have one print ad left, in Vintage Guitar magazine. Their entire marketing is their A&R, and their social media presence, which is very very strong....and that's gotten them to where they are today: record sales.
> 
> Even if they couldn't capitalize on the potential growth, would it make their customers happier? Could it streamline their operations on their end? Yes to both...but at least for the short-term, I could see how they could legitimately say they don't need it (and by "it", i mean "to spend the large chunk of money that would see little ROI").
> 
> What we don't know, is: of their ~4,000 orders per year, how many are online orders? And of the ones that aren't, how many are call-ins simple because the person can't figure out the website, or can't find the options they are looking for (even if they are indeed not a non-returnable option)? An updated website would shift some of those numbers around a bit, but without the raw date, we can only guess as to their rationalizations.
> 
> But...another issue is errors. In 2008 when i ordered my first Carvin, I ordered online, and recommended it for years over calling in because most of the errors we saw seemed to be communication errors between the customer, the salesperson, and the computer. However, in recent years, i've flipped. There are too many ways that the online builder is confusing (at best) and lays traps that could have someone paying twice for an option.
> 
> Confusing traps: ordering a neck-through in black? Then it shouldn't show you a $40 black headstock paint option, because that's how your guitar will come standard. Why does the builder make you select "body and neck wood" as one option, and then an upgraded neck in the next? You might think that if you want a mahogany and maple 5-piece neck that you have to select a mahogany neck on the first page, then upgrade to the mahog maple on the next...but you'd be paying for the mahogany twice.
> 
> Errors: Then there's the cookies/cache issue which can cause errors in your shopping cart. If you configure too many guitars in a session without clearing your browser's cookies/cache, or have multiple guitars in your cart, it can sometimes drop off or add on options, or double-list some, screwing with the totals and specs. I just can't recommend it any longer to anyone but the most dedicated "experts" who can navigate those issues.


I can't say I agree. Those traps and errors you've mentioned are a UX nightmare that stems directly from how the builder is implemented. I don't think it's difficult at all to clean up that workflow (and dear god that cache management is awful).

I think it would be ideal to remove human communication (and thus human error) from the equation as much as possible. Obviously they wouldn't do this because of the entire "call my guys" marketing schtick, but phone communication is old, outdated, slow, unreliable, and worst of all, doesn't leave a paper trail. A call center should never be the primary point of communication as they're expensive to run and maintain quality while scaling.

Maybe now they're not able to capitalize on a more effective ordering system, but what options do they have? Clearly the customer base is growing. They'll either need to scale up operations, significantly extend wait times, or stop taking new orders. That's not an easy problem to solve, but a proper online builder is probably the easiest win they could do for the smallest investment.


----------



## spudmunkey

Im


Avedas said:


> .
> 
> Maybe now they're not able to capitalize on a more effective ordering system, but what options do they have? Clearly the customer base is growing. They'll either need to scale up operations, significantly extend wait times, or stop taking new orders. That's not an easy problem to solve, but a proper online builder is probably the easiest win they could do for the smallest investment.



There is another option: they could also increase pricing to slow demand to the manageable level while increasing profit with no further investment. 

I could only see them investing in updating the builder if there were back-end cost savings efficiencies to be had...but their decades-old option code system/structure wasnt planned out to support such a diverse portfolio. But I could be (likely am) way off base. 

As far as the paper trail/phone call thing, they do still send build sheets/invoices by email, so there is still indeed a "paper trail".


----------



## bracky

Your salesperson emails the invoice to you and you have to reply back signing off on it as correct before the order is submitted. That is the paper trail.

If you want a completely automated experience try sweetwater. Oh wait Josh still calls you to check up.


----------



## olejason

They don't have an online builder because they don't need one. They could be lying but they claim to be running at, or over, capacity for orders.


----------



## Avedas

bracky said:


> Your salesperson emails the invoice to you and you have to reply back signing off on it as correct before the order is submitted. That is the paper trail.
> 
> If you want a completely automated experience try sweetwater. Oh wait Josh still calls you to check up.


I want a completely automated experience (with opt-in human communication) because I live in the 21st century and phoning "the guys" is not an option for me. I like doing all correspondence over email not because I don't trust them, but because that correspondence contains information that I can reference in the future if needed. I discuss a lot of details over email with them and it's very useful to have a record of that rather than trying to remember details from a phone call weeks or months or years later.

I've had nothing but great experiences with Kiesel but that doesn't mean things can't be improved. I don't like this old school thinking that things don't need to be changed because they're "good enough" or "this is the way things have always been done". There are clearly bad UX patterns and solving them earlier reduces the burden compared to doing it later, while simultaneously making it easier to scale the business later on. It's the same idea as paying down technical debt. But I also get it's a guitar company and not a tech company, so they probably don't care.


----------



## Jeff

Not having a modern website with a modern 2003 ordering system because “we’re doing awesome, can’t keep up!” Is a poor excuse, and shortsighted thought process.


----------



## possumkiller

I just never could get into Carvin guitars because they all look like the Tesco Value version of regular guitars. I'm not even talking about disgusting finishes, just the body and headstock shapes.


----------



## bracky

possumkiller said:


> I just never could get into Carvin guitars headstock shapes.



You mean Kiesel and what headstock?


----------



## SamSam

bracky said:


> You mean Kiesel and what headstock?



Most of them are pretty shite to be fair, some fall into the "acceptable I guess" category. Definitely a majoy design weakness for me. At least they do headless now


----------



## AxRookie

Word...


----------



## sleewell

i still don't get why all of their guitars are so ugly.


----------



## asopala

sleewell said:


> i still don't get why all of their guitars are so ugly.



I don't have a stake in this one way or the other, but I had to.


----------



## AxRookie

sleewell said:


> i still don't get why all of their guitars are so ugly.


You have the nerve to say that with the avatar you have???

OK then...


----------



## sleewell

i'm guessing cat person or dog/rat that fits in your mom's purse.


----------



## Jonathan20022

My roommate strongly holds the opinion that they all look like knock off versions of the models they mimic 

I don't agree, evidently from me ordering the ones I did. But I get the notion looking at them nowadays from the website, there is definitely always either something oblong about their shapes, or they have that huge bell bottom that leaves some inconsistency. The headstock shapes were always the the worst though, the only acceptable one is the 3x3 (preferably reversed), and the becker. I actually think that the Vader is one of the best body shapes to come out of the Kiesel shop in a long time with it's shortened horns. But if you were to give Jeff the project of turning the Vader into a normal guitar shape with a headstock, it would probably end up looking horrendous.

IE: rounding out the rear of the guitar, elongating the horns, and putting an ill fitting headstock on the Vader.


----------



## mbardu

That's OK guys, everyone is allowed to like or not like the looks of something, let's chill.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't know, I think that applies more to the old Carvin designs. The current range is less "knock-offy". 

From the Aries forward I think they found thier own design language.


----------



## xzacx

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, I think that applies more to the old Carvin designs. The current range is less "knock-offy".
> 
> From the Aries forward I think they found thier own design language.



I agree with this—I don't think that design language is particularly elegant, but I do think it's less "knock-offy" than in the past. I also agree with what @Jonathan20022 said regarding the Vader. That shape really stands out as one of the better ones they offer. Maybe it's a bad example because I guess it is fairly derivative of a GM, but I think it looks good on its own rather than looking like a B-grade GM.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

xzacx said:


> I agree with this—I don't think that design language is particularly elegant, but I do think it's less "knock-offy" than in the past. I also agree with what @Jonathan20022 said regarding the Vader. That shape really stands out as one of the better ones they offer. Maybe it's a bad example because I guess it is fairly derivative of a GM, but I think it looks good on its own rather than looking like a B-grade GM.



Really, all the headless stuff (minus the Letchford, imo) is great looking. Which is extra impressive considering they're available in different string counts and scale configurations.


----------



## Avedas

The headless stuff is all very bulbous. I can't get over it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Avedas said:


> The headless stuff is all very bulbous. I can't get over it.



You're not wrong, but it reminds me of a lot of the boutique basses that I love from the 90's.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, I think that applies more to the old Carvin designs. The current range is less "knock-offy".
> 
> From the Aries forward I think they found thier own design language.





MaxOfMetal said:


> Really, all the headless stuff (minus the Letchford, imo) is great looking. Which is extra impressive considering they're available in different string counts and scale configurations.



Letchford looks like poop so we all agree there at least  .
As far as signatures go, the new LM is much better and it's a shame they don't offer the shape in a regular model.

I don't necessarily fault them for the more derivative stuff (after all...who doesn't do derivative...), so even the Crescent is a win at least in my eyes. That combination of small carve and comfy flat top works well, and I like it almost as much as the Vader.

I can see the dislike for some things though.
Their neck-thrus are very "fat-bottomed" for lack of a better term, and although I think their recent Solo is a very nice take on the Tele shape, the Delos/Theos could be better. Their GT or "Dean"-like headstocks? No thank you...



Avedas said:


> The headless stuff is all very bulbous. I can't get over it.



That's mostly the Zeus, no?
The Vader is pretty slick, they have the X and V types which are anything but bulbous, and even the Leia is actually pretty "regular", at least IMHO.

But yeah I guess that Zeus could be considered bulbous enough for the entire range. It's almost endearingly goofy looking though


----------



## diagrammatiks

the cl headless is like someone only had 5 minutes to start a guitar and designed it on a napkin. and that napkin got fed into the cnc.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> L
> The Vader is pretty slick, they have the X and V types which are anything but bulbous, and even the Leia is actually pretty "regular", at least IMHO.



I think the Leia is actually the opposite of bulbous. It looks just right as a 6 to me (also really cool you can get it in shorter scale), but almost too small as a 7.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> the cl headless is like someone only had 5 minutes to start a guitar and designed it on a napkin. and that napkin got fed into the cnc.



Yeah but at least it has all of the downsides of a headless and none of the benefits, am I right?!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Yeah, what were they thinking on that one? Letchford usually had good taste (his Artinger was amazing), and then out of nowhere came these.


----------



## stevexc

AxRookie said:


> You have the nerve to say that with the avatar you have???
> 
> OK then...



Hey. Hey. He may be wrong, but let's not bring that adorable poocher into this.


----------



## Avedas

mbardu said:


> Letchford looks like poop so we all agree there at least  .
> That's mostly the Zeus, no?
> The Vader is pretty slick, they have the X and V types which are anything but bulbous, and even the Leia is actually pretty "regular", at least IMHO.
> 
> But yeah I guess that Zeus could be considered bulbous enough for the entire range. It's almost endearingly goofy looking though


Zeus is definitely the worst, but Osiris, Delos HD, Leia, Holdsworth, and Letchford all have some overexaggerated curves to my eyes.

And the Type V/X are complete abominations.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

ToO BuLboUs


----------



## BigViolin

I want to get a CL for all that luscious trunk junk.


----------



## Avedas

KnightBrolaire said:


> ToO BuLboUs


If guitars could grow tumors


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Avedas said:


> If guitars could grow tumors



The Tele ain't that bad.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Yeah but at least it has all of the downsides of a headless and none of the benefits, am I right?!



What are supposed to be the benefits of a headless that the CL doesn't have? I assume the "junk in the trunk" type of comments are here, but removing the wood directly under the bridge is not beneficial at all IMO, unless you like that look.


----------



## Mathemagician

Man I like the Zeus. I with it came in neckthrough but otherwise it grew on me quick. I still don’t like the horns on the Aries or K series.


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> What are supposed to be the benefits of a headless that the CL doesn't have? I assume the "junk in the trunk" type of comments are here, but removing the wood directly under the bridge is not beneficial at all IMO, unless you like that look.



Well supposing that the purpose of a headless instrument is a smaller footprint + weight reduction, it doesn't really maximize on either fronts. And I don't particularly have gargantuan fingers, it always seemed obvious to me that carving out the wood under was to mimic the ease of access you have on the headstock of a normal guitar. There isn't wood surrounding the tuners on a normal headstock, so most headless guitars redact that area for the same purpose?


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> Well supposing that the purpose of a headless instrument is a smaller footprint + weight reduction, it doesn't really maximize on either fronts. And I don't particularly have gargantuan fingers, it always seemed obvious to me that carving out the wood under was to mimic the ease of access you have on the headstock of a normal guitar. There isn't wood surrounding the tuners on a normal headstock, so most headless guitars redact that area for the same purpose?



I don't disagree with your points, but I disagree that they are relevant to the CL:

Whether you cut that segment out or not, it makes no difference in the footprint -- there's no space savings you get from cutting that area out. The length and width of the guitar are essentially the same.

In terms of weight reduction, that area under the bridge is a much thinner piece of wood. I don't imagine it could account for more than 0.3lb, as evidenced by the fact the Kiesel CL is actually lighter than the Steinberger GR series and other headless that have that area cut-out. Who cares about that? If that's someone's priority, better get one of those Steinberger spirits. 

The biggest advantage to me of having a headless guitar is ...being headless. Ditching the 6+ inches on the far end of the guitar that's likely to swing into something, and the way that changes the way the guitar balances and moves with you. And then bringing the tuners closer to where your hand rests, as opposed to some awkward twisting action you have to do reaching out to the other side of the neck. Both of these are there. So call me crazy -- thought these were more important than not having "a butt"


----------



## Avedas

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Tele ain't that bad.


I like Teles but probably because it's a classic, iconic shape. If I had never seen one in my life and it suddenly got introduced today, I probably wouldn't be into it. Like the Strandberg Salen, which is gross.


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> I don't disagree with your points, but I disagree that they are relevant to the CL:
> 
> Whether you cut that segment out or not, it makes no difference in the footprint -- there's no space savings you get from cutting that area out. The length and width of the guitar are essentially the same.
> 
> In terms of weight reduction, that area under the bridge is a much thinner piece of wood. I don't imagine it could account for more than 0.3lb, as evidenced by the fact the Kiesel CL is actually lighter than the Steinberger GR series and other headless that have that area cut-out. Who cares about that? If that's someone's priority, better get one of those Steinberger spirits.
> 
> The biggest advantage to me of having a headless guitar is ...being headless. Ditching the 6+ inches on the far end of the guitar that's likely to swing into something, and the way that changes the way the guitar balances and moves with you. And then bringing the tuners closer to where your hand rests, as opposed to some awkward twisting action you have to do reaching out to the other side of the neck. Both of these are there. So call me crazy -- thought these were more important than not having "a butt"



In terms of footprint it has plenty of areas to work on.

It's not just the area directly under the fine tuners, it extends pretty far out. It quite literally looks like a normal guitar body with a recess on the bottom edge of the guitar. Wether it accounts for less than half a pound or not doesn't mean much when it could be reduced further. And if you remove the wood within the recess of the tuners, you might as well rework the rest of the guitar and shave off where needed to remove as much weight while keeping the design in mind. I like having the right thigh cut out, but if you keep the bottom left/right of the body rounded off it would still look great, maybe a bit too much like the Vader but I don't think so.











That being said, the Kiesel site says the average Vader Weight sits at 6lbs, and the CL sits at 6.2lbs. If the CL has the potential to be even .5 - 1lb lighter why shouldn't they make those modifications? It would make it look 10x better in my opinion as well. In terms of what makes a headless a headless guitar, I think there's a lazy way to approach it and a very tactile way to approach it that requires way more time spent in the overall design rather than just lump off the headstock, I prefer the latter.


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> In terms of footprint it has plenty of areas to work on.
> 
> It's not just the area directly under the fine tuners, it extends pretty far out. It quite literally looks like a normal guitar body with a recess on the bottom edge of the guitar. Wether it accounts for less than half a pound or not doesn't mean much when it could be reduced further. And if you remove the wood within the recess of the tuners, you might as well rework the rest of the guitar and shave off where needed to remove as much weight while keeping the design in mind. I like having the right thigh cut out, but if you keep the bottom left/right of the body rounded off it would still look great, maybe a bit too much like the Vader but I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That being said, the Kiesel site says the average Vader Weight sits at 6lbs, and the CL sits at 6.2lbs. If the CL has the potential to be even .5 - 1lb lighter why shouldn't they make those modifications? It would make it look 10x better in my opinion as well. In terms of what makes a headless a headless guitar, I think there's a lazy way to approach it and a very tactile way to approach it that requires way more time spent in the overall design rather than just lump off the headstock, I prefer the latter.



Well I mean... they shouldn't make those modifications because Chris wanted it to look that way. If we're talking subjective things like the overall aesthetic, it's a sig guitar, and that's how it is.

If we're talking objective things like weight, fine, but as we both point out, the CL weight is not much different from that of other headless guitars that apparently do get SSO approval. But Parker Flys are 4.5 lbs all day long, so I don't see why we need to conflate the issue of weight with the issue of being headless or not.

Otherwise, whenever anyone complains about the CL not having any of the benefits because a headless guitar because it has pretty typical outline and weight compared to guitars with headstocks, I'm just going to post this and then make the same complains about the vader, boden, etc.:


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> What are supposed to be the benefits of a headless that the CL doesn't have? I assume the "junk in the trunk" type of comments are here, but removing the wood directly under the bridge is not beneficial at all IMO, unless you like that look.



Removing the wood under the bridge _is actually_ pretty beneficial. Headless tuners are already a bit fiddly compared to regular tuners, add to that an obstacle in the way of your hand and it's not great. The Vader design is the best here.
Plus it might not sound like much on paper but in real life the guitar is by far their biggest looking headless, and not in a good way.
I was talking earlier about their fat-bottomed DCs which I kinda like, but here it's too far, and out of place on a headless (IMO).
And with that comes weight. No single part is culprit here, but add them up together and the CL is the heaviest headless, and it gets into regular guitar territory.

Just for the sake of comparison, take a chambered Vanquish (chambered is by default on the CL) and you have a guitar that looks _much _nicer, has tuners that you can actually use, weighs pretty much the same, and is maybe 2 inches longer (especially with the nice compact 2+4 headstock) than the CL while being sleeker on the body. 0 benefit of the CL IMO in that scenario.


----------



## SpaceDock

I didn’t like any of the Kiesel headless designs until the Delos HD6. More of a classic super strat, but I really like that as a headless:


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Otherwise, whenever anyone complains about the CL not having any of the benefits because a headless guitar because it has pretty typical outline and weight compared to guitars with headstocks, I'm just going to post this and then make the same complains about the vader, boden, etc.:



Up to you if you'd like to criticize the bodens and vaders of the world 

This argument is obviously on a spectrum of headless guitars. On one extreme you have "tiny toy feeling" and on the other extreme you have "fat pig".
I believe you'll see most people agree (subjectively of course) that the above is one extreme, while the CL is the other extreme, with typically the bodens and Vaders as a happy medium somewhere in the middle.

If they're all the same to you, I suppose that's also fine, but I'm pretty sure you're going to be in the minority there.


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> Well I mean... they shouldn't make those modifications because Chris wanted it to look that way. If we're talking subjective things like the overall aesthetic, it's a sig guitar, and that's how it is.
> 
> If we're talking objective things like weight, fine, but as we both point out, the CL weight is not much different from that of other headless guitars that apparently do get SSO approval. But Parker Flys are 4.5 lbs all day long, so I don't see why we need to conflate the issue of weight with the issue of being headless or not.
> 
> Otherwise, whenever anyone complains about the CL not having any of the benefits because a headless guitar because it has pretty typical outline and weight compared to guitars with headstocks, I'm just going to post this and then make the same complains about the vader, boden, etc.:



Yeah *I guess*.

But we're talking about favorable Kiesel designs, and you're absolutely right that it is Letchford's call at the end of the day to design his signature as he sees fit. But as long as it's available for order, I think the customer can point out critiques since it's still a product meant to sell. I'm not saying they should make those modifications, because I doubt they would I'm just saying that those would align with my interests and I'm sure many others because the default CL isn't my cup of tea.

It's exactly why the CL is so similar in weight without shaving off the extras that makes me want to do just that. If you can cut the CL down to a more appealing design while at the same time cutting down on any unnecessary wood. Why not do so?

Not sure why you bring up the Parker, those things are made of Carbon which is going to significantly lower the weight. I don't see Kiesel making composite instruments anytime soon, so while we're in the constraints of wood, I'd love to see a smaller/lighter/more aesthetically pleasing headless out of them.

I don't see why it has to be either extreme ala Steinberger or CL. And why desiring something that not only looks good, has the potential to be much lighter, and has a smaller footprint isn't worth discussing.

Aesthetics count for a lot, and if you dip your toes in the headless game there are a few more boxes to tick for me personally to make it a great choice. But I'm not here advocating to turn the CL into a modified Vader, just suggesting that there is room for improvement on that design which I've seen enough negative reception on to think that people would like that.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> What are supposed to be the benefits of a headless that the CL doesn't have? I assume the "junk in the trunk" type of comments are here, but removing the wood directly under the bridge is not beneficial at all IMO, unless you like that look.



I'm an equal opportunity junk in the trunk hater.

this guitar makes me physically ill


----------



## Jonathan20022

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm an equal opportunity junk in the trunk hater.
> 
> this guitar makes me physically ill
> 
> View attachment 83264


----------



## Vyn

The problem I have is that even the Vader which isn't a bad design just doesn't look as good when next to one of these:










Ignoring the finish/wood options, I think the Goliath's shape is just better.


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yeah *I guess*.
> 
> But we're talking about favorable Kiesel designs, and you're absolutely right that it is Letchford's call at the end of the day to design his signature as he sees fit. But as long as it's available for order, I think the customer can point out critiques since it's still a product meant to sell. I'm not saying they should make those modifications, because I doubt they would I'm just saying that those would align with my interests and I'm sure many others because the default CL isn't my cup of tea.
> 
> It's exactly why the CL is so similar in weight without shaving off the extras that makes me want to do just that. If you can cut the CL down to a more appealing design while at the same time cutting down on any unnecessary wood. Why not do so?
> 
> Not sure why you bring up the Parker, those things are made of Carbon which is going to significantly lower the weight. I don't see Kiesel making composite instruments anytime soon, so while we're in the constraints of wood, I'd love to see a smaller/lighter/more aesthetically pleasing headless out of them.
> 
> I don't see why it has to be either extreme ala Steinberger or CL. And why desiring something that not only looks good, has the potential to be much lighter, and has a smaller footprint isn't worth discussing.
> 
> Aesthetics count for a lot, and if you dip your toes in the headless game there are a few more boxes to tick for me personally to make it a great choice. But I'm not here advocating to turn the CL into a modified Vader, just suggesting that there is room for improvement on that design which I've seen enough negative reception on to think that people would like that.



Fair enough, I'm not arguing about the aesthetics and I didn't bring up that point. I really only said that the CL achieves the benefits of headless guitars to basically the same level of other Kiesel headless guitars. So it shouldn't be said that it has all the disadvantages of being a headless guitar and none of the advantages. It's clear in the weight and size specs that it is right there with other Kiesel headless models:

In comparisons to the Vanquish:
vader: 31.5"
CL: 32.25"
vanquish: 37"

vader: 6.0lbs
CL: 6.2lbs
vanquish: 7lbs



But I'm not saying it's a good design. That's subjective stuff so I don't see the point of arguing about it. When talking about objective issues, it's clear that on paper it brings the headless advantages basically as much as other things.

And I do like Delos/Zeus/Osiris designs with some ass.

Also Parkers aren't made of CF. They have a CF reinforcement layer but are made of regular ol' wood. They're just thin.


----------



## StevenC

Vyn said:


> The problem I have is that even the Vader which isn't a good design just doesn't look as bad when next to one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ignoring the finish/wood options, I think the Goliath's shape is just entirely random.


FTFY


----------



## SamSam

Yea the Goliath isn't the greatest headless design out there...

I actually quite like the Zeus design, it might even be my favourite model of theirs.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Fair enough, I'm not arguing about the aesthetics and I didn't bring up that point. I really only said that the CL achieves the benefits of headless guitars to basically the same level of other Kiesel headless guitars. So it shouldn't be said that it has all the disadvantages of being a headless guitar and none of the advantages. It's clear in the weight and size specs that it is right there with other Kiesel headless models:
> 
> In comparisons to the Vanquish:
> vader: 31.5"
> CL: 32.25"
> vanquish: 37"
> 
> vader: 6.0lbs
> CL: 6.2lbs
> vanquish: 7lbs
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm not saying it's a good design. That's subjective stuff so I don't see the point of arguing about it. When talking about objective issues, it's clear that on paper it brings the headless advantages basically as much as other things.
> 
> And I do like Delos/Zeus/Osiris designs with some ass.
> 
> Also Parkers aren't made of CF. They have a CF reinforcement layer but are made of regular ol' wood. They're just thin.



Just FYI the CL is chambered by default, so the number you quote is the lowest you can get a CL to be. 
The Vanquish and Vader however can be chambered too, which is bringing their weights even lower.
I'll maintain that the fat design and tuner setup are bad but hey, I understand that at some point there's a level of subjectivity to that, so it's fine to disagree.

Not really sure why you brought Parkers into the mix. 
We all know they're lightweight but they're neither Kiesels, nor headless, nor signatures, nor something you can really buy today...


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Not really sure why you brought Parkers into the mix.
> We all know they're lightweight but they're neither Kiesels, nor headless, nor signatures, nor something you can really buy today...



Just to say that light-weight and headless don't have to go hand-in-hand. To say that to the extent that lightweight is associated with headless guitars, the CL is no slouch.

For instance, Teuffel Teslas are like 6.5lbs, Steinbergers like 7lbs, Vaders are 6lbs, and yet we also have guitars with headstocks that are like 4.5-5lbs, lighter than basically any Boden. Even chambered Vaders are like 5.5lbs. So basically if you want a light guitar, a CL is not going to be that different from any other Kiesel, and if you want a proper light guitar, your best choice isn't even a headless guitar. So to say the CL doesn't have any of the weight benefits of a headless guitar when it is .2lbs heavier than the Vader (which apparently doesn't receive your criticism) and .3-.7 lbs less than many other notable headless guitars, just seems nonsensical. 

And is anyone really particular enough to care about .2lbs? Playing guitar in like some orbit where all your muscle deteriorated?

Anyone wants to criticize the CL because it looks bad, fine, I'm with you. But that's a sig guitar. That's just the usual SSO "Ughh, why didn't this artist give me the specs I like!" situation.


----------



## sleewell

that ormsby is hot.


----------



## foreright

SpaceDock said:


> I didn’t like any of the Kiesel headless designs until the Delos HD6. More of a classic super strat, but I really like that as a headless:
> 
> View attachment 83263



Ok, now I'm fully with the not liking any of the Kiesel designs I see popping up on here - never really taken that much notice of them, but that above ^ I REALLY like  I've experimented with designs that are basically Strat with chopped of head but that is a really nice one.

'course, it's not a patch on the Ormsby as noted


----------



## spudmunkey

I still dont understand the arguement that if a guitar is headless, that means that unless it's a no-compromises ergo design, then it's not worth doing. The simple act of removing a headstock has lots of functional benefits, even with no other changes.

Like...I got the version of my car with the larger engine...but I had no interest in getting the more "sporty" suspension or lower-profile tires, etc. 

"It just looks like a normal sized guitar body" is the whole point. You can't say that a regular size guitar body without a headstock looks "wrong" while also ignoring that maaaaaany people think that most people over 5'0" with the smaller headless guitar bodies look "wrong". Also, trimming more body away from the butt of the guitar gives less body to rest your arm on. I side-by-sided Kiesel's Delos and the HD several times, and still came away with an arm comfort preference for the headed Delos.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I still dont understand the arguement that if a guitar is headless, that means that unless it's a no-compromises ergo design, then it's not worth doing. The simple act of removing a headstock has lots of functional benefits, even with no other changes.
> 
> Like...I got the version of my car with the larger engine...but I had no interest in getting the more "sporty" suspension or lower-profile tires, etc.
> 
> "It just looks like a normal sized guitar body" is the whole point. You can't say that a regular size guitar body without a headstock looks "wrong" while also ignoring that maaaaaany people think that most people over 5'0" with the smaller headless guitar bodies look "wrong". Also, trimming more body away from the butt of the guitar gives less body to rest your arm on. I side-by-sided Kiesel's Delos and the HD several times, and still came away with an arm comfort preference for the headed Delos.



The way I see it headless hardware is pretty much garbage compared to basic headed hardware, so I feel you kinda need "something" to make it worth it. 

What that "something" is will vary significantly person to person, but I understand the idea.

Not saying Hipshot/Kiesel stuff is particularly bad either, much better than Strandberg and especially better than most of the cheapo stuff on Chibergs.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Just to say that light-weight and headless don't have to go hand-in-hand. To say that to the extent that lightweight is associated with headless guitars, the CL is no slouch.
> 
> For instance, Teuffel Teslas are like 6.5lbs, Steinbergers like 7lbs, Vaders are 6lbs, and yet we also have guitars with headstocks that are like 4.5-5lbs, lighter than basically any Boden. Even chambered Vaders are like 5.5lbs. So basically if you want a light guitar, a CL is not going to be that different from any other Kiesel, and if you want a proper light guitar, your best choice isn't even a headless guitar. So to say the CL doesn't have any of the weight benefits of a headless guitar when it is .2lbs heavier than the Vader (which apparently doesn't receive your criticism) and .3-.7 lbs less than many other notable headless guitars, just seems nonsensical.
> 
> And is anyone really particular enough to care about .2lbs? Playing guitar in like some orbit where all your muscle deteriorated?
> 
> Anyone wants to criticize the CL because it looks bad, fine, I'm with you. But that's a sig guitar. That's just the usual SSO "Ughh, why didn't this artist give me the specs I like!" situation.



I mean, fine if you want to continue to ignore half my argument about how inconvenient the CL is, that's OK.
About weight, since you're fixated on only that apparently, I didn't quote numbers over and over like you're doing, but if you're misrepresenting them, then I'm still free to correct.

Then I don't understand your "if you want a proper light guitar, your best choice isn't even a headless guitar" though. 
If you have actual realistic alternative choices that are not super-boutique or 20-year old discontinued instruments, I'm all ears. All those 4.5-5lbs guitars with headstock I can buy today that you will point me to? Sounds like there are plenty of them. Very interested. That would mean pretty much all recent ergo makers have been doing their business wrong for some time now! 



MaxOfMetal said:


> The way I see it headless hardware is pretty much garbage compared to basic headed hardware, so I feel you kinda need "something" to make it worth it.
> 
> What that "something" is will vary significantly person to person, but I understand the idea.
> 
> Not saying Hipshot/Kiesel stuff is particularly bad either, much better than Strandberg and especially better than most of the cheapo stuff on Chibergs.



The Hipshot on Kiesel is not bad, but headless is always more fiddly than regular tuners. Especially when people put a large piece of wood in the way of actually accessing said hardware for no reason


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I'm not in love with the Hipshot/Kiesel stuff but it really isn't bad. It's not especially good either, but I could probably live with it. It's damn close to being good though, so perhaps a generation or two from now we'll get something killer and headless, not just good for headless.


----------



## diagrammatiks

spudmunkey said:


> I still dont understand the arguement that if a guitar is headless, that means that unless it's a no-compromises ergo design, then it's not worth doing. The simple act of removing a headstock has lots of functional benefits, even with no other changes.
> 
> Like...I got the version of my car with the larger engine...but I had no interest in getting the more "sporty" suspension or lower-profile tires, etc.
> 
> "It just looks like a normal sized guitar body" is the whole point. You can't say that a regular size guitar body without a headstock looks "wrong" while also ignoring that maaaaaany people think that most people over 5'0" with the smaller headless guitar bodies look "wrong". Also, trimming more body away from the butt of the guitar gives less body to rest your arm on. I side-by-sided Kiesel's Delos and the HD several times, and still came away with an arm comfort preference for the headed Delos.









y tho. y.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> y tho. y.



Their designers were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.


----------



## Avedas

diagrammatiks said:


> y tho. y.


At least they did the nut properly, which Kiesel is utterly incapable of doing.

Also the "Headless == Ergonomic" is the new "Headless == Travel guitar".


----------



## Albake21

diagrammatiks said:


> y tho. y.


I honestly really like this and I don't even like headless guitars.


----------



## mbardu

Albake21 said:


> I honestly really like this and I don't even like headless guitars.



Probably because of that weird stub at the top... Not totally headless then  !


----------



## diagrammatiks

Albake21 said:


> I honestly really like this and I don't even like headless guitars.



see when you have bad opinions that's how the bad guys win.


----------



## Restarted

I think most Kiesels look great. I don't have anything negative to say about the Zeus or Osiris. Some of the classier specced ones with nice tops and no weird finishes are just incredible. For example, this is one of my favorite guitars:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6BbkgrgaMv/
It's the company, their holier-than-thou attitude, the stupid risk that's forced on the customers when buying, and the obnoxious cult following that's absolute dogshit


----------



## spudmunkey

And keep in mind the Kiesel CL model _is_ also made lighter. The same way laptop, phone and tablet manufacturers make their items lighter (besides exotic materials): making it thinner. The CL is kiesel's slimmest guitar. So even without additional material removed, it would still be lighter than the equivilent DC, for example, all else being equal. Weight releif was still clearly a consideration, but I imagine so was balance. Removing more material from the back of the guitar would mean that there's more likely going to be a little more neck dive (headless aren't immune to that, again all else being equal), the body itself would be thicker/heavier to make up that balance, and there'd be less surface area to rest your arm which some just wouldn'y find to be as comfortable. To me, those all sound like reasonable compromises, where you can still get a guitar that's 7" shorter than one with a headstock, still fits in the same-sized headless guitar case.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> I mean, fine if you want to continue to ignore half my argument about how inconvenient the CL is, that's OK.



I mean, it's because I don't think it's a very convincing argument. I've had plenty of guitars with less space under the bridge to adjust tuners and it's been no problem at all. In contrast, my strandberg had all the access in the world there and was a huge pain in the ass to tune. That gen1 hardware was way too stiff. So I think this is pretty obvious an issue with bridges, and not with being able to get to them. 

I mean, just look at it. If you have trouble turning those, you must have Hulk fingers or require a special dialing wand to use your phone:


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> I mean, it's because I don't think it's a very convincing argument. I've had plenty of guitars with less space under the bridge to adjust tuners and it's been no problem at all. In contrast, my strandberg had all the access in the world there and was a huge pain in the ass to tune. That gen1 hardware was way too stiff. So I think this is pretty obvious an issue with bridges, and not with being able to get to them.
> 
> I mean, just look at it. If you have trouble turning those, you must have Hulk fingers or require a special dialing wand to use your phone:



The tuner's ease of use, and ease of access are two separate things to tackle.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I mean, it's because I don't think it's a very convincing argument. I've had plenty of guitars with less space under the bridge to adjust tuners and it's been no problem at all. In contrast, my strandberg had all the access in the world there and was a huge pain in the ass to tune. That gen1 hardware was way too stiff. So I think this is pretty obvious an issue with bridges, and not with being able to get to them.
> 
> I mean, just look at it. If you have trouble turning those, you must have Hulk fingers or require a special dialing wand to use your phone:



Have you ever held the guitar, or are you just commenting to be contrarian based on that one picture?
Even the Vader design, which still has a little lip under the tuner (albeit much smaller) can get _a tad_ in the way, and the CL one is literally 10 times as long.

If you feel you may not mind that in a hypothetical scenario where you actually play this guitar, that's fine. Again, there's a degree of subjectivity here and maybe it doesn't matter to you. So I won't make a snark comment such as "hurr durr U have baby hands" to make it seem like I have a point. Plus we're obviously nitpicking small things here, nothing absolutely fundamental. But that design _will _be more in the way than the Vader, and that's just factual.

Nothing to do with how stiff the hardware of another brand on another guitar is.
All other things are equal here, the hardware is the same.
Just like throwing Parker in the discussion, this has 0 relevance.


----------



## I play music

SpaceDock said:


> I didn’t like any of the Kiesel headless designs until the Delos HD6. More of a classic super strat, but I really like that as a headless:
> 
> View attachment 83263


They must have interpreted it in a way I did not expect when I said the Delos headstock was ugly


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> The tuner's ease of use, and ease of access are two separate things to tackle.



Yes, but I'm simply saying that if you have anywhere decent hardware, that CL has more than enough room for you to use it without any trouble, and if you have shitty hardware even a boden level of accessibility can't save you. Trying to complain about that CL access -- I imagine some infomercial of some guy flubbing his hands all over the bottom of the guitar, knocking over glasses of water, "There's gotta be a better way!!"

I got into this argument because mbardu wanted to say it had none of the advantages of a headless guitar, yet it has similar weight numbers, similar dimensions and fits the same size case, has the balance of a headless guitar, and has tuners in an more easily accessible spot. Trying to play it like anyone's going to have trouble using those CL tuners is laughable imo, so I'm just going to QED that right there and peace out from debating this further 'cause it's just getting repetitive (as it always seems to when he's involved).

It's pretty ugly tho.


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> They must have interpreted it in a way I did not expect when I said the Delos headstock was ugly



My only concern for innovation at Kiesel is that soon they're going to run out of existing models to chop the headstock off of.

What then? No more models?
Or will we _finally _get an explorer then


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> My only concern for innovation at Kiesel is that soon they're going to run out of existing models to chop the headstock off of.
> 
> What then? No more models?
> Or will we _finally _get an explorer then



You know, a headless Vanquish would be pretty neat.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

another side by side comparison of the ToO BuLbOuS zeus.


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> another side by side comparison of the ToO BuLbOuS zeus.


Now it looks like a travel guitar.


----------



## Albake21

diagrammatiks said:


> see when you have bad opinions that's how the bad guys win.


What you posted is 10x better than anything Etherial has ever made...


----------



## Señor Voorhees

The Zeus is probably the only guitar with weird overhanging wood under the tuners that I actually like. Kiesel designs in general tend to look like cookies that you took out of the oven half way through their cooking time. I remember the CL shape coming out and me being immediately thinking "nah, man."

To each their own, as I know my tastes don't line up with others at in many cases, but I always just thought it looked a little lazy. I do sorta recall them doing that really nice purple finish on one of the first ones. I'd kill for that quilted purple finish even on an ugly guitar like the CL.


----------



## gunshow86de

Kiesel made something with a poplar burl top that doesn't look completely disgusting?


----------



## mbardu

gunshow86de said:


> Kiesel made something with a poplar burl top that doesn't look completely disgusting?



Very nice. I can't stop looking at the Leia... has a bit of the same bridge "issue" as the CL, though not as bad and it looks soooo much nicer. And is actually very compact too.

In terms of burl, I like this type of thing too:












Where I really lose it is when they insist on doing their "Cali-burst"...really cannot get onboard with those. Nope nope nope...


----------



## I play music

KnightBrolaire said:


> another side by side comparison of the ToO BuLbOuS zeus.


Loving your guitar collection. All of those are super nice. Even the Kiesl and that's rare!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I play music said:


> Loving your guitar collection. All of those are super nice. Even the Kiesl and that's rare!


thanks, that's not all of em, just some of the ones that are more in line with typical superstrat or Tele shapes.


----------



## Vyn

StevenC said:


> FTFY





SamSam said:


> Yea the Goliath isn't the greatest headless design out there...
> 
> I actually quite like the Zeus design, it might even be my favourite model of theirs.



Shit, I'm out numbered haha.


----------



## diagrammatiks

the zeus looks like it's growing a tumor out of it's top bout.


----------



## Indigenous

The Leia looks like a Holdsworth with a fat ass.


----------



## kisielk

I like the bridge underhang, doesn't bother me the least on my Zeus. I wish my Holdsworth had it... I ended up installing a tremol-no so that I'd stop throwing the thing out of tune every time the back bumped into my thigh or something. If I was buying another I'd probably get a Leia...


----------



## Mathemagician

diagrammatiks said:


> y tho. y.



These fucking rip bro. Idk, but I like them. 



KnightBrolaire said:


> another side by side comparison of the ToO BuLbOuS zeus.



I wanna paddle a boat with it. But in a good way. It looks sturdy.


----------



## I play music

The more I read here the more I realize how stupid Kiesel's model names sound


----------



## stevexc

I play music said:


> The more I read here the more I realize how stupid Kiesel's model names sound



i agree, "Stratocaster", "Solid Guitar", "RG652AHMFX" and "SLATTXMG3-7" are much better, objectively speaking, than "Aries" or "Zeus"


----------



## mbardu

stevexc said:


> i agree, "Stratocaster", "Solid Guitar", "RG652AHMFX" and "SLATTXMG3-7" are much better, objectively speaking, than "Aries" or "Zeus"



I personally like the recent _"*LIMITED EDITION WILDCARD SERIES SOLOIST™ ARCH TOP EXTREME SL27 EX, EBONY FINGERBOARD, BLUE SPARKLE*"_ from Jackson. Really rolls off the tongue compared to something like "Vader" or "Delos".


----------



## spudmunkey

Or RGBLGBTVBBQWTF42069LMAO



I play music said:


> The more I read here the more I realize how stupid Kiesel's model names sound



The good thing is that they all also just have a short model designation number. 6-string Delos: D6. Zeus Bass, Multiscale 7: ZBM7. Aries 6-string: A6. California Single-cut 6-string: CS6.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> I personally like the recent _"*LIMITED EDITION WILDCARD SERIES SOLOIST™ ARCH TOP EXTREME SL27 EX, EBONY FINGERBOARD, BLUE SPARKLE*"_ from Jackson. Really rolls off the tongue compared to something like "Vader" or "Delos".





Leave it to this guy.

If you're gonna go that far, then I'm pretty sure Kiesel has similar naming structures for one off model names.

Aka, "Limited Edition Osiris Headless Guitar w/ Hipshot/Kiesel Tremolo System"

But if you want to make it a 1:1 comparison, Jackson does have singular word based names. Aka the guitar you're referring to is the Soloist, an Arch Top Soloist.


----------



## cip 123

Jonathan20022 said:


> "Limited Edition Osiris Headless Guitar w/ Hipshot/Kiesel Tremolo System"


"Limited Call My Guys Edition Osiris Headless Guitar w/ Hipshot/Kiesel Tremolo System"


----------



## spudmunkey

What I always found amusing was that one additinal letter than sometimes gets tacked on to model names, designating the bridge type.

A6H = Hipshot fixed bridge, for example...

However, they sometimes paint themselves into corners for a while.

DC127 with a Floyd rose? DC127F, right? No, DC127C...because they had already used the "F" for their "FT6" and "FT7" fixed bridges.

CS6T much be for Tune-o-Matic, right? Nope...the T was for "trem"...back when they had the Wilkinson trem option before they brought Floyd trems back in. The tune-o-matic string-through was the "M" bridge for some reason. 

Now they have the "X"...for the Hipshot/Kiesel trem. Now to be confused with GFS's "XTrem"...and they use the same "X" for both the headless and regular versions of the bridge.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

I don't really mind the names, even if they are a little silly. Something about naming models after Star Wars characters and ancient gods is just a little cringe to me. The Vader, for instance, was a little silly but it's whatever. "Leia" is just a weird name for a guitar model. I cringe at the thought of their next headless shape... The "Anubis," followed by the "Allah" and the super special edition "Jesus."

Then again, maybe they won't go those routes... Saying I want a headless "Jesus" or "Allah" doesn't uh... It doesn't sit well. lol


----------



## mbardu

Señor Voorhees said:


> I don't really mind the names, even if they are a little silly. Something about naming models after Star Wars characters and ancient gods is just a little cringe to me. The Vader, for instance, was a little silly but it's whatever. "Leia" is just a weird name for a guitar model. I cringe at the thought of their next headless shape... The "Anubis," followed by the "Allah" and the super special edition "Jesus."
> 
> Then again, maybe they won't go those routes... Saying I want a headless "Jesus" or "Allah" doesn't uh... It doesn't sit well. lol



The names are passable IMO. Not "good" (whatever that even means), and I don't really vibe with the "Star Wars" theme, but at least they're not in your face. I feel it's just one more reason to say something against Kiesel just because (_as is tradition_).

For one, I find those types of names way less cringe and obnoxious vs the obvious metal "yeah we're badass" try-hard names like the "Apocalyspe bloodlust avenger" or the "Warbeast extreme", yet for those no one bats an eye so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Yeah I don't get it, Kiesel names seem pretty innocuous.


----------



## I play music

The reason I think they are bad is because when I hear them I don't think of a guitar. Like at all.

And when Mr Kiesel himself butchers the name of a Greek god with his Murican pronunciation it makes my ears hurt. Should not be too difficult to google the pronunciation of a name once before using it as a model name and saying it daily in some video on social media.


----------



## spudmunkey

I play music said:


> The reason I think they are bad is because when I hear them I don't think of a guitar. Like at all.
> 
> And when Mr Kiesel himself butchers the name of a Greek good with his Murican pronunciation it makes my ears hurt. Should not be too difficult to google the pronunciation of a name once before using it as a model name and saying it daily in some video on social media.



Well I'm equally offended that you misspelled "god" as "good". 

Genuinely curious: which Greek origin names are being pronounced wrong?

Edit: and it IS difficult to find a "correct" pronunciation. I just looked up "Theos" and got:
1) THEE-oze
2) thay-OSE
3) THEE-iss


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I play music said:


> The reason I think they are bad is because when I hear them I don't think of a guitar. Like at all.
> 
> And when Mr Kiesel himself butchers the name of a Greek good with his Murican pronunciation it makes my ears hurt. Should not be too difficult to google the pronunciation of a name once before using it as a model name and saying it daily in some video on social media.



He probably pronounces the "L" in "salmon" too, that bastard.


----------



## Vyn

MaxOfMetal said:


> He probably pronounces the "L" in "salmon" too, that bastard.



At the risk of getting off topic, how about you guys start pronouncing 'solder' and 'aluminium' correctly


----------



## spudmunkey

Vyn said:


> 'aluminium'



We're not pronouncing "aluminium" correctly because we're too busy pronouncing "aluminum" correctly.

Actually...we're all pronouncing alumium wrong.


----------



## Edika

Well if we're talking Greek god names only the Aries corresponds to a Greek name god. Zeus is the Latin equivalent of Δίας (Thi-ass and the th is pronounced like the and the intonation on the first syllable). 

Theos literally mean god and the th sound here is pronounced like the sound in thesis. So The-oss with the intonation on the second syllable.


----------



## Vyn

spudmunkey said:


> We're not pronouncing "aluminium" correctly because we're too busy pronouncing "aluminum" correctly.
> 
> Actually...we're all pronouncing alumium wrong.



Can’t even spell it correctly either


----------



## spudmunkey

Vyn said:


> Can’t even spell it correctly either



Um, excuse me?  The guy who discovered it named it Alumium. Then 4 years later, he renamed it Aluminum. Then the Brits decided they wanted it to sound like Potassium and Magnesium, so they changed it to Aluminium. So of all of the options I had that in that last post, "aluminium" is the most recent, so the most "wrong" going by that regard, and it's also not what the person who discovered it called it.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Popsi-cleez
Salmonillvs
Binks
Duodenum

All good options


----------



## xzacx

Knocking Kiesel for their model names gives credence to people complaining that there’s an anti-Kiesel bias. I think there are a lot of things to criticize them for—some objective and some more subjective, but that’s just looking for a problem imo.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Knocking Kiesel for their model names gives credence to people complaining that there’s an anti-Kiesel bias. I think there are a lot of things to criticize them for—some objective and some more subjective, but that’s just looking for a problem imo.



Well you know what they say, the first step is always about acknowledging


----------



## Mathemagician

I think the names are “weird” simply because they are “new”. Like what the hell is a warrior, RG, or Stratocaster? Those are just more established in people’s minds. Not something I’d get worked up over.

I don’t see anyone complaining about the overly metal names of pickups in recent years.


----------



## narad

Just be thankful that the Kiesel demographic is mostly teenagers and not 80s rock guys, and you don't have to order guitars like the "hairy brown eye" or "pink taco"


----------



## Edika

Sometimes I do wonder about the naming conventions of other brands. Like what that RG in Ibanez models mean, maybe "Real Guitar"?

The Jackson names are also a bit confusing sometimes. I mean ok KV means King V and RR is Randy Rhoads. Was there a guy named Kelly that was using the KE models? Or was the Warrior named like that because it looked like a weapon? Like only for Warriors?


----------



## Avedas

As long as there's no Latin involved I'm on board with most names guitar companies and metal artists use.


----------



## Merrekof

Avedas said:


> As long as there's no Latin involved I'm on board with most names guitar companies and metal artists use.


I guess you don't like Mors Principium Est or Ars Veneficium then.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Edika said:


> Sometimes I do wonder about the naming conventions of other brands. Like what that RG in Ibanez models mean, maybe "Real Guitar"?
> 
> The Jackson names are also a bit confusing sometimes. I mean ok KV means King V and RR is Randy Rhoads. Was there a guy named Kelly that was using the KE models? Or was the Warrior named like that because it looked like a weapon? Like only for Warriors?



"Roadstar Guitar", Bradford Kelly, Mike Wright thought it sounded cool


----------



## Musiscience

Seabeast2000 said:


> Popsi-cleez
> Salmonillvs
> Binks
> Duodenum
> 
> All good options



I want a Kiesel Duodenum model.


----------



## Edika

MaxOfMetal said:


> "Roadstar Guitar", Bradford Kelly, Mike Wright thought it sounded cool



I was not aware that the Kelly was named after a musician which I had no idea who he was honestly and had to google him. I tried to find Mike Wright but could only find some books written by him. Is he a guitarist or a builder? And the Roadstar Guitar somehow sounds like a really Japanese idea of an English speaking name for a guitar!

Cheers Max for the info once more!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Edika said:


> I was not aware that the Kelly was named after a musician which I had no idea who he was honestly and had to google him. I tried to find Mike Wright but could only find some books written by him. Is he a guitarist or a builder? And the Roadstar Guitar somehow sounds like a really Japanese idea of an English speaking name for a guitar!
> 
> Cheers Max for the info once more!



Yeah, "Roadstar Guitar" is definitely derived from some good ol' Engrish. A lot of it has to do with not stepping on copyrighted names back in the 70's, yet still sounding, to the Japanese at least, like American guitar names. Another example is the Tokai "Love Rock", or "LR" instead of "LP" for their flagship Les Paul copies. 

Mike Wright was an employee of Jackson guitars in the late 80's/early 90's right around the time Grover left the company. I believe he was a designer/builder, but there's conflicting information out there. 

Bradford Kelly played for the rock/metal band Heaven for a time, never got super popular though. A lot of folks associated the Kelly with Marty Friedman to the point that there are erroneous explanations for the name of the guitar such as it was the name of one of Marty's girlfriends.


----------



## Avedas

Merrekof said:


> I guess you don't like Mors Principium Est or Ars Veneficium then.


Sorry I didn't study philosophy in school.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> A lot of folks associated the Kelly with Marty Friedman to the point that there are erroneous explanations for the name of the guitar such as it was the name of one of Marty's girlfriends.



Lol, maybe when Jackson releases a Yui or Asuka.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

mbardu said:


> The names are passable IMO. Not "good" (whatever that even means), and I don't really vibe with the "Star Wars" theme, but at least they're not in your face. I feel it's just one more reason to say something against Kiesel just because (_as is tradition_).
> 
> For one, I find those types of names way less cringe and obnoxious vs the obvious metal "yeah we're badass" try-hard names like the "Apocalyspe bloodlust avenger" or the "Warbeast extreme", yet for those no one bats an eye so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



I can't speak for others but I like a lot of the names for schecter guitars. Apocalypse isn't so much a guitar name as it is like a trim set. Pickups/finish/etc. You can have it sound equally strange by saying "grape jelly metallic Vader." (which I'd love to own might I add, even if it sounds stupid. lol.) I like the names Avenger, Banshee, and Omen. Less a fan of Demon, daimeon, and hellraiser.

Bc rich is chock full of dumb laughable names. Warlock, war beast, beast, bich, ignitor, shredzilla, etc.

My only nitpicky gripe about kiesel names is the peculiar usage of someone else's ip. Like, it's ultimately harmless, not a big deal, and it wouldn't stop me from buying another Vader. It's just, I don't know. For a company that's hell bent on not making an explorer so they can be "original" using unoriginal names is just a little funny to me.

Call em whatever you want. Call the Vader a hag wagon and it wouldn't stop me from wanting a "grape jelly metallic hag wagon."


----------



## kisielk

I always thought it was named after Estonian politican Artur Vader: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artur_Vader?wprov=sfti1


----------



## MaxOfMetal

kisielk said:


> I always thought it was named after Estonian politican Artur Vader: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artur_Vader?wprov=sfti1



I thought it was the wrestler.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Oh god, I remember that guy. Pretty sure he was at one of the WWF events I went to way the fuck back when it was still WWF.

Also, I didn't really mean to nit-pick about names. I honestly don't care what things are called, as @Chokey Chicken has said, and my opinions are fairly in line with hers. There are tons of guitars out there with dumb names that I love.


----------



## Jeff

I don’t give a shit about the names, it’d just be nice to see a solid year or so without some sort of Jeff drama. I do still really dig their shapes.


----------



## BigViolin

It's not named after the cab company?


----------



## TheShreddinHand

I always felt like the double guitar strap buttons (and guitar body they’re attached to) on the bottom of the Vader looked like a pair of saggy teats on a fat chick. Now I can’t UNSEE it!!


----------



## Science_Penguin

TheShreddinHand said:


> I always felt like the double guitar strap buttons (and guitar body they’re attached to) on the bottom of the Vader looked like a pair of saggy teats on a fat chick. Now I can’t UNSEE it!!



While we're on the subject... What IS the bottom strap button for? I get why the old Steinberger paddles had them- they were symetrical and that made it easier for left-handed players to flip them around. Made sense for a mass produced instrument.

Why would you have that on not only an asymmetrical superstrat model, but one that's made to order and can be ordered left-handed???


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Science_Penguin said:


> While we're on the subject... What IS the bottom strap button for? I get why the old Steinberger paddles had them- they were symetrical and that made it easier for left-handed players to flip them around. Made sense for a mass produced instrument.
> 
> Why would you have that on not only an asymmetrical superstrat model, but one that's made to order and can be ordered left-handed???



To lean up against something. Really. That's why Tom Anderson started doing it in the 80's.


----------



## Science_Penguin

MaxOfMetal said:


> To lean up against something. Really. That's why Tom Anderson started doing it in the 80's.



Ah... Well... I guess that's one surefire way to do it without altering the design too much.


----------



## spudmunkey

For Carvin, it started on the Holdsworth models, per Allan's request, for leaning.

I've heard a couple people say that putting it on the bottom on is more comfortable. Something about the way it hangs when you've got a guy. I've also heard a couple people say they use the higher one when standing, and the lower one when sitting. Not sure why someone would do that, though.


----------



## kisielk

It’s all about being able to stand it up. I’m pretty sure Holdsworth just got the idea from Steinberger, he used to play one before he got the Carvin.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

looking through the last couple of pages it's surprising how many people didn't get that the vader was named after darth vader.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> For Carvin, it started on the Holdsworth models, per Allan's request, for leaning.
> 
> I've heard a couple people say that putting it on the bottom on is more comfortable. Something about the way it hangs when you've got a guy. I've also heard a couple people say they use the higher one when standing, and the lower one when sitting. Not sure why someone would do that, though.



Ugh...shouldn't have posted so early. spelling corrections:

"I've heard a couple people say that putting it on the bottom *one* is more comfortable. Something about the way it hangs when you've got a *gut*.""


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> looking through the last couple of pages it's surprising how many people didn't get that the vader was named after darth vader.










Edit: Or was that a joke, and a "whoosh" on my end.?


----------



## Exit Existence

The double bottom strap buttons actually work really good for leaning the guitar on something haha. Since it has 2 points of contact with the ground, its like impossible to knock it over sideways and unless the floor is super slick it's not really going to slide out "feet first"


----------



## Andromalia

KnightBrolaire said:


> looking through the last couple of pages it's surprising how many people didn't get that the vader was named after darth vader.



I'm pretty sure that's the one vader the guitar isn't named after, because it's the one company that would have sued the hell out of him. (And with much ddeper pockets, to boot, more or less ensuring a win if I got the american judicial system right)


----------



## diagrammatiks

Andromalia said:


> I'm pretty sure that's the one vader the guitar isn't named after, because it's the one company that would have sued the hell out of him. (And with much ddeper pockets, to boot, more or less ensuring a win if I got the american judicial system right)



no it totally is.


----------



## spudmunkey

Hmm, no, that doesnt sound right.


----------



## AxRookie

Word...


----------



## RockMixer

Kiesel is just not the custom shop for me. Quality is not all that great and their customer service and support sucks.
Jeff is an unstable guy. I realize he is human, but you always need to handle business on a professional level and do what is right.
He does not follow that path. 
If you all like your Kiesel's, rock on! No judgement. Just letting you know my experience.


----------



## AxRookie

If I had to sum up Kiesel in one word I'd have to say, Inconsistent, and by that I mean a lot of people have shared their own experiences with Kiesel which range from Great to Bad...

I guess it boils down to who you deal with there?


----------



## spudmunkey

AxRookie said:


> I guess it boils down to who you deal with there?



That's some of it, but the salespeople don't build the guitars.

With all of that said...the last few months (since "the incident") has been pretty damned quiet. Record sales and shipments, and I've only seen a couple of minor issues, and all seemed to have been (or are being) resolved with refunds or rebuilds...one person, they kept getting the headstock shape wrong, and they are still re-building it a 3rd time for him, without reports of "you're keeping this one, or you're fired" stipulations. It seems that their current challenges are longer-than-expected leadtimes approaching 20 weeks or longer for builds that may have been originally estimated at 10-14 or 12-18 weeks.


----------



## Avedas

My first Kiesel from last year was very good with some minor flaws. The two I got this year (after said "incident") were total knockouts. I dealt with Keith since he does the international sales and he's been great.


----------



## slan

Every Carvin/Kiesel I've ever played just had this... sterile feel. It's hard to describe. I always felt like I was playing something that came out of a 3D printer. Just not my thing.


----------



## Snarpaasi

slan said:


> Every Carvin/Kiesel I've ever played just had this... sterile feel. It's hard to describe. I always felt like I was playing something that came out of a 3D printer. Just not my thing.



Could it have to do something with the carbon rods in the neck? It's challenging for sure to identify what makes a guitar feel special but I've noticed that neck through construction is one thing that affects the tone in a certain way. My DC127 sounds a bit dull but then again there's something unique I haven't found from other guitars.


----------



## slan

Snarpaasi said:


> Could it have to do something with the carbon rods in the neck? It's challenging for sure to identify what makes a guitar feel special but I've noticed that neck through construction is one thing that affects the tone in a certain way. My DC127 sounds a bit dull but then again there's something unique I haven't found from other guitars.



That's definitely a possibility!


----------



## spudmunkey

There were a number of years between when they were graphite and the current carbon fiber, where there were no rods, and people still said the same thing.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> There were a number of years between when they were graphite and the current carbon fiber, where there were no rods, and people still said the same thing.



If we exclude bias (which can certainly be a factor), and since we are hearing less of this feedback recently, my guess would be either:

pickups, because the 22 pole ones were pretty particular and indeed could give a pretty "sterile" sound if you didn't tweak your setup. We hear less of that nowadays, with maybe the exception of the Lithiums
neck-through construction in general doesn't really respond the same as the bolt-ons/set necks that the very large majority of guitars had, even just a few guitars ago. Could be jarring for some people. Their best selling model nowadays is bolt on so that won't be a factor.
Because at the end of the day, they're guitars made of wood, with pretty standard specs and construction methods. It's not like they're made of resin or have a weird scale length- there's no intrinsic reason for them to sound "different" (everything else being equal, so keeping pickups the same for example).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

When someone says "it felt/sounded sterile" what they really mean is "its just not my thing". I've heard that comment about just about every brand under the sun. Sometimes you just don't jive with a guitar.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> There were a number of years between when they were graphite and the current carbon fiber, where there were no rods, and people still said the same thing.


I think that any time there’s a really well built guitar with obvious CNC work and precision people will say that. I’ve heard that about a lot of high end guitars. But I will say that I think it’s all in one’s head. This sterility and perfection is something we should WANT. Hand made stuff with an organic feel is great, but it doesn’t make the instrument easier to play or help with consistent output from a company.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> I think that any time there’s a really well built guitar with obvious CNC work and precision people will say that. I’ve heard that about a lot of high end guitars. But I will say that I think it’s all in one’s head. This sterility and perfection is something we should WANT. Hand made stuff with an organic feel is great, but it doesn’t make the instrument easier to play or help with consistent output from a company.



Probably greater than 90% of players won't be able to tell the difference. Even the nerd/enthusiast community is mostly made up of folks that have no idea how the sausage is made. 

On the whole, guitar players are fucking clueless.


----------



## AxRookie

Word... ;^)


----------



## Leviathus

I'm not rollin. Some guitars are going to resonate/sound/feel/whatever better than others. Could be 2 of the same model and one's way more "alive" when you play it. Lemons are out there of all shapes and price tags.


----------



## Hollowway

Leviathus said:


> I'm not rollin. Some guitars are going to resonate/sound/feel/whatever better than others. Could be 2 of the same model and one's way more "alive" when you play it. Lemons are out there of all shapes and price tags.


For sure. I just don’t know you’re going to be able to consistently find lemons from a decent builder to the point you could say that every one you’ve (not you specifically) played has felt sterile.


----------



## Leviathus

Hollowway said:


> For sure. I just don’t know you’re going to be able to consistently find lemons from a decent builder to the point you could say that every one you’ve (not you specifically) played has felt sterile.


Agreed.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> For sure. I just don’t know you’re going to be able to consistently find lemons from a decent builder to the point you could say that every one you’ve (not you specifically) played has felt sterile.



Descriptions like "sterile" or "uninspiring" or similar are so subjective that they don't really mean anything.


----------



## Avedas

But it doesn't have any soul.


----------



## spudmunkey

Avedas said:


> But it doesn't have any soul.



It obviously needs moar toan.


----------



## AxRookie

I love mine, It sings like none other I've played!

An instrument is only as good as the person who is playing it...

And possibly how it is set up...


----------



## Chris Bowsman

I think most of the time when people say a guitar sounds sterile, they mean the midrange qualities are not what they’re used to hearing from vintage Gibsons or Fenders.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Chris Bowsman said:


> I think most of the time when people say a guitar sounds sterile, they mean the midrange qualities are not what they’re used to hearing from vintage Gibsons or Fenders.



Doesn't account for how often folks say that about Strats and Les Pauls.


----------



## exo

MaxOfMetal said:


> When someone says "it felt/sounded sterile" what they really mean is "its just not my thing". I've heard that comment about just about every brand under the sun. Sometimes you just don't jive with a guitar.




TRUTH.

I’ve owned multiple guitars that are supposedly identical other than finish color, and one of them will just “speak to me” where the other “identical” guitars just felt dead and lifeless in comparison.

Even with all the production automation modern construction has via CNC and such.....wood is still an organic structure that will have some sort of intangible variables, even if you manage to get two guitar bodies or necks cut from the same plank....and that’s without getting into e nuances that can happen AFTER the CNC and basic build. Guitars are still finished by hand, even in the “import market” factories.....and thus, sometimes you just don’t jive with a guitar......


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I wouldn't even take it that far, it's just folks searching for validation when none is really needed. 

You played a guitar and it didn't jive with you. No one needs an overly specific justification of why, that's just how it is, and it can have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the guitar. 

I've played $25k guitars that are impeccably well built and sounded wonderful, but I just didn't really connect with, and that's okay. There are plenty of guitars out there that I do connect with.


----------



## Chris Bowsman

MaxOfMetal said:


> Doesn't account for how often folks say that about Strats and Les Pauls.



The vast majority of the time I've heard people describe a guitar as sterile, it's been a PRS or anything with EMG pickups, and from someone on the Seymour Duncan Forum. Or it's been a local blues player who doesn't like anything that's not a 50's style G or F.


----------



## I play music

Chris Bowsman said:


> The vast majority of the time I've heard people describe a guitar as sterile, it's been a PRS or anything with EMG pickups, and from someone on the Seymour Duncan Forum. Or it's been a local blues player who doesn't like anything that's not a 50's style G or F.


Or it has too thick of a finish on it which makes it feel like plastic. I have felt like this with a few guitars and didn't like that feel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I play music said:


> Or it has too thick of a finish on it which makes it feel like plastic. I have felt like this with a few guitars and didn't like that feel.



This is another one thrown around fairly often. 

Unless someone globbed on layers of poly or epoxy with a brush, shot finishes are measured in thousandths of an inch in thickness. When it comes to production guitars, the idea is to put on as thin a coat as possible to not waste material and so it cures quickly and evenly. Modern pigments can be both opaque and vivid without multiple coats. 

When you see a highly glossed guitar that looks like water or glass, it's a trick of the light making the finish seem much thicker. It's a similar concept to the chatoyance of figured tops where the mineral patterns give the appearance of changes in depth. 

If you're on social media take a look at some of the finishes done by "jncolor" who does finish work for the various FMIC Custom Shops. You'll see him shooting thin coats of lacquer. Consider that modern polyester finishes are even thinner than that.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I feel like the term "sterile" means pretty much anything when it comes to bonding with a guitar... neck profile, specs, tone, scale, fret material, type of bridge, set-up, etc, etc... whatever lends itself to someone's lackluster experience. Not sure how a minuscule percentage of opinions equates to an overall negative consensus of any brand or model when it's all so subjective.


----------



## Millul

I love it when Max gets into the more technical detail!


----------



## Musiscience

To me sterile means a focus on high mids and highs with very subdued low frequencies. Probably means something different to a lot of other people though. I don't even consider it a bad thing personally. My Duvell is "sterile" in that regard as it is very hi mids and high focused, it absolutely sucks for blues or jazz, but under high gain it really shines and cuts through a mix for modern metal. Super articulate and clear. 

On the other hand my AZ is the opposite of sterile as the tone is quite full and balanced. Very sweet and lively for rock, blues and jazz, but sucks for modern metal. 

IMO sterile or otherwise, each type of sound has it's place somewhere, just maybe not for what you play.


----------



## diagrammatiks

all guitars sound like guitars guys.


----------



## budda

diagrammatiks said:


> all guitars sound like guitars guys.



Burn the heretic.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

High Plains Drifter said:


> I feel like the term "sterile" means pretty much anything when it comes to bonding with a guitar... neck profile, specs, tone, scale, fret material, type of bridge, set-up, etc, etc... whatever lends itself to someone's lackluster experience. Not sure how a minuscule percentage of opinions equates to an overall negative consensus of any brand or model when it's all so subjective.



Yep, ‘it sounds sterile’ means ‘I don’t like how it sounds but can’t describe why in any quantifiable terms and don’t want to sound like I don’t know what I’m talking about.’


----------



## AxRookie

People who can match the sound in their head to the sound coming out of their amp should be very thankful! Most people struggle and strive for that rare and wonderful thing!!!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

To me sterile is another word for lifeless. Like when you pick up a guitar and it sounds dead or dull. It doesn’t respond to your playing, you can’t feel the vibrations or any notes bloom. Hard to explain without having someone in a room and showing them examples. The best description I can give is when you’ve got really dead strings and you aren’t in the mood for playing at all, the guitar has that feeling. 

It’s not a cost thing. I’ve had had expensive custom guitars that were zero fun to play while I picked up a $200 ibanez in a store last year that sounded and responded better than 90% guitars I’ve played. 

that said what’s sterile to one person is the ideal tone of an instrument for another person.


----------



## adrianb

spudmunkey said:


> It obviously needs moar toan.



Needs more dings and scratches all over.


----------



## j3ps3

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is another one thrown around fairly often.
> 
> Unless someone globbed on layers of poly or epoxy with a brush, shot finishes are measured in thousandths of an inch in thickness. When it comes to production guitars, the idea is to put on as thin a coat as possible to not waste material and so it cures quickly and evenly. Modern pigments can be both opaque and vivid without multiple coats.
> 
> When you see a highly glossed guitar that looks like water or glass, it's a trick of the light making the finish seem much thicker. It's a similar concept to the chatoyance of figured tops where the mineral patterns give the appearance of changes in depth.
> 
> If you're on social media take a look at some of the finishes done by "jncolor" who does finish work for the various FMIC Custom Shops. You'll see him shooting thin coats of lacquer. Consider that modern polyester finishes are even thinner than that.



My experience refinishing an LTD SC608B was the complete opposite. It had a finish that was thick as a brick. Now this could be just me, but it felt like the sound opened up a bit after stripping and refinishing it. That sterile feel wasn't as bad as it was.

At the guitar building school I attended, we were taught to make the finish as thin as possible, like you said. However, when sanding it smooth, you could sand through the lacquer, which, I think, is the reason they'll use thicker coats of lacquer on production guitars. That 608B is the only one I've done a refinish on, though

Edit: and because we all love guitars, here's a pic:


----------



## MaxOfMetal

j3ps3 said:


> My experience refinishing an LTD SC608B was the complete opposite. It had a finish that was thick as a brick. Now this could be just me, but it felt like the sound opened up a bit after stripping and refinishing it. That sterile feel wasn't as bad as it was.
> 
> At the guitar building school I attended, we were taught to make the finish as thin as possible, like you said. However, when sanding it smooth, you could sand through the lacquer, which, I think, is the reason they'll use thicker coats of lacquer on production guitars. That 608B is the only one I've done a refinish on, though



A lot of guitars are practically dunked in filler prior to finishing. I've worked on a number of LTDs that reflected that. 

I think Ibanez back in the late 90's/early 00's did it best by just gluing a super thin veneer front and back so they didn't have to use filler. Of course the downside to that is they often didn't let the finish cure entirely and it would just chip off over the years. 

I'd still say that most lay folks can't determine how thick or thin a finish is tacitly or visually (or sonically  ). You'd have to strip it down to really know. Heck, I've been messing with guitars for decades and I can't even tell for sure until I'm ripping the thing apart.


----------



## Hollowway

I posted about this a couple of years ago, and it looks like other people are noticing it, as well. Kiesel likes to make it look like stuff is on a bigger sale by changing the original sale price, rather than actually discounting it further. Seems like an unethical way to approach it. And I’m pretty sure it’s illegal.


----------



## Restarted

I love how they've tamed the sheep in that group. "Not saying it's wrong" fucking lol. Can't even point to illegal shit without being scared to offend their overlords.

Edit: reading this after I clicked post, it's too harshly worded and the point is misdirected, but I'll keep it because I still can't figure out any other way to phrase my point. But this is why I hate social media and cult-like groups. Fear of exclusion is real and dangerous to take advantage of. Fuck Kiesel


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm sure there's some loophole where they could say, "We've since changed the price on Kiesel Editions" or "master grade woods". Those prices seem to fluctuate a lot, which is one reason I think they never have them listed online.

The real test would be when the sale is over, if the "full price" goes back down.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

That’s Kiesel for you. We shouldn’t be surprised when Kiesel pulls a Kiesel.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, at the risk of parodying myself, I’ll again say that as success as Kiesel is, I think they could be even more so if they (aka Jeff) didn’t do moronic shifty crap like this. He’s potentially saving a couple hundred dollars and the expense of looking like an untrustworthy used car salesman.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> I'm sure there's some loophole where they could say, "We've since changed the price on Kiesel Editions" or "master grade woods". Those prices seem to fluctuate a lot, which is one reason I think they never have them listed online.
> 
> The real test would be when the sale is over, if the "full price" goes back down.


Yeah, I’m not sure about this one, but the one I saw a couple of years ago, which I called Mike Jones about, did go back down. He said that in their system in order to make it look like a bigger sale they have to increase the listed price. I told him that if it was actually a sale, wouldn’t they want to decrease the sale price? He got testy with me, so I decided not to bother with it. I thought initially it was a mistake, and had it actually gone down I was going to buy it. Sure enough, after the sale the original price dropped back to where it used to be, but the sale price stayed the same. It just made no sense to me.


----------



## Avedas

Restarted said:


> But this is why I hate social media and cult-like groups. Fear of exclusion is real and dangerous to take advantage of.


Yeah, you've just described FB groups in a nutshell.

Considering they can barely even run the website at a functioning level, I'd be inclined to believe this is more incompetence than malice. I don't know what the laws around this sort of thing are in California, but double pricing like this would certainly be illegal where I live


----------



## Restarted

spudmunkey said:


> I'm sure there's some loophole where they could say, "We've since changed the price on Kiesel Editions" or "master grade woods". Those prices seem to fluctuate a lot, which is one reason I think they never have them listed online.
> 
> The real test would be when the sale is over, if the "full price" goes back down.



Tried to quickly Google this, and can't find anything on US law for it. I'm actually very interested now and want to know if they can get away with it.


----------



## Hollowway

Restarted said:


> Tried to quickly Google this, and can't find anything on US law for it. I'm actually very interested now and want to know if they can get away with it.


I know there is a rule that says you can’t perpetually have stuff on sale, because then that is the “actual” price. I read about it at some point. It all has to do with the original listed price. I’m not sure anyone at the government level cares enough about a little company like this, though.


----------



## Edika

I mean most stores do this on sales, Black Friday etc etc. They put a higher original price then supossedly slash the price and will sell it at the same price or even a higher price. I'm not sure there is a specific consumer law or precedent about misadvertising prices. It mostly works with people casuallu browsing during sales on things they probably weren't that interested to buy at that point of time and jump on the "sale" without doing any research on the price.


----------



## Restarted

Edika said:


> I mean most stores do this on sales, Black Friday etc etc. They put a higher original price then supossedly slash the price and will sell it at the same price or even a higher price. I'm not sure there is a specific consumer law or precedent about misadvertising prices. It mostly works with people casuallu browsing during sales on things they probably weren't that interested to buy at that point of time and jump on the "sale" without doing any research on the price.



It's illegal in most countries. You have to prove you've been selling at the "original price" for a significant amount of time, otherwise it is considered customer misdirection. At least that's what I found in a 5-minute google search. But in the US, it's more complicated since each state has its own customer protection laws.


----------



## Edika

Yeah it sounds illegal for sure and I was suspecting there would be some laws about this.


----------



## Hoss632

Being someone that learned about kiesel really only back in 2019 I have taken time to read a lot of the stories. I've seen the bad ones and the good ones. I will say that the good ones seem to vastly out way the horror stories. I still really would like a Kiesel for myself one day. I am in the FB group and what I've done in there is pay attention to how the sales guys that are in the group interact and I see pics of builds they helped customers spec. So I have a good idea of who I will want to talk to when the day comes. As far as a guitar being "sterile" or uninspiring. I'm still a fairly new player, but I can definitely say that I agree with some in here that say it's subjective. Some guitars have felt better to me to play than others. I typically focus more on the neck than anything as that's where I find my discomfort will come from when playing a guitar. That's the only part about buying a Kiesel that I worry about. I have no way to check one out before hand unless I just happen to get lucky and a local guitar center takes one in used.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Regarding the Kiesel "sale" prices in the context of legality or ethics, I wouldn't doubt that further blurring the line is that unlike a typical retailer, many of these guitars could be argued by Kiesel to be "one of a kind/ custom items"... maybe therefore exempt from certain regulatory criteria. I would think that in that regard, it would only further to provide them some kind of additional loop-hole. As suggested... not sure how much this type of thing is scrutinized by anyone anyway.


----------



## SDMFVan

Who are the people paying $10k for a Kiesel??


----------



## Mathemagician

Hollowway said:


> I posted about this a couple of years ago, and it looks like other people are noticing it, as well. Kiesel likes to make it look like stuff is on a bigger sale by changing the original sale price, rather than actually discounting it further. Seems like an unethical way to approach it. And I’m pretty sure it’s illegal.
> 
> View attachment 87135



Yeah that’s something I associate with department store sales. Think JCPenny/Kohl’s/Macy’s. It was $20 last week, now it’s: “Used to be $30 down to $20 and 33% off!”


----------



## diagrammatiks

SDMFVan said:


> Who are the people paying $10k for a Kiesel??



ya know...

people that post in the Facebook groups that people paying 16k for a prs are getting conned.


----------



## Albake21

Edika said:


> I mean most stores do this on sales, Black Friday etc etc. They put a higher original price then supossedly slash the price and will sell it at the same price or even a higher price. I'm not sure there is a specific consumer law or precedent about misadvertising prices. It mostly works with people casuallu browsing during sales on things they probably weren't that interested to buy at that point of time and jump on the "sale" without doing any research on the price.


As someone who used to work at JCPenney, this is exactly how it worked. We would have "sales", "door buster sales" and then "black friday sales". What really was going on here was that the "sale" price was the actual street price, so that it was considered always on sale. When you see something that's a "door buster sale" that's when something was actually on sale. Every weekend most items would turn over to a door buster sales. For black friday though, they would remove the "sale" price a week before black friday and set it to no sale. This was a fourth price which was MSRP price. In other words, they would jack up the price of items 1 or 2 weeks before black friday. When the day would come around they would set the black friday prices to whatever the "door buster" price was. In other words, JCPenney is just one big scam and I can guarantee plenty of other retailers do the same.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

SDMFVan said:


> Who are the people paying $10k for a Kiesel??



I don't think any of their super expensive show guitars have sold. You can't have a flat level of production quality and then introduce guitars double the price with no jump in quality like say a PRS private stock and expect customers to buy them. Those are incredible nice pieces of timber but charging 500% extra for them is crazy. They push the saying you could have multiple Kiesels for that kind of money so its not a market they can move into.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

SDMFVan said:


> Who are the people paying $10k for a Kiesel??


Them’s fightin’ words!


----------



## mbardu

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't think any of their super expensive show guitars have sold. You can't have a flat level of production quality and then introduce guitars double the price with no jump in quality like say a PRS private stock and expect customers to buy them. Those are incredible nice pieces of timber but charging 500% extra for them is crazy. They push the saying you could have multiple Kiesels for that kind of money so its not a market they can move into.



Well your example with PRS Private Stock is interesting because they're the same principle. They're not going to play any better than the base non-ten top PRS either. They are going to look unique and you'll get whatever specs you want finished by the PRS guru... but at the end of the day that won't make a better instrument. There are lots of stories of people disappointed in their PS precisely for that reason. And they sell a lot, and lot over 10k, so I don't doubt Kiesel would have sold a couple (even though the options or finishes are not to the same level).

As for what Kiesel is doing with hiking their prices up to make it look like sales, yeah I'm 90% sure that's illegal in California and against FTC rules in general against misleading pricing. Those are just never actually enforced, otherwise there are many places like Macy's or Kohl's that would have been out of business long ago. But Kiesel has shown that they don't really care about being on the edge of legality either. The one that irks me the most is the constant use of Star Wars IP. Surprised they haven't been sued yet.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

AxRookie said:


> I love mine, It sings like none other I've played!
> 
> An instrument is only as good as the person who is playing it...
> 
> And possibly how it is set up...



Wrong. Instruments can still be crap. Kiesels are hit or miss. Sometimes you get a good one and other times it just feels boring and dull


----------



## spudmunkey

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't think any of their super expensive show guitars have sold. /QUOTE]
> 
> Huh? They've sold quite a few of them. Heck, even their triple neck "'Merica" Vader sold. The guy who bought the first "kiesel edition" frequents the Facebook group. He's had it for years, and just listed it for sale for the first time. $6969 (nice), I think it sold for nearly $9k.


----------



## mbardu

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Wrong. Instruments can still be crap. Kiesels are hit or miss. *Sometimes you get a good one and other times it just feels boring and dull*



Wow, almost like all instruments then 



spudmunkey said:


> He's had it for years, and just listed it for sale for the first time. $6969 (nice), I think it sold for nearly $9k



Nice


----------



## Amenthea

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Wrong. Instruments can still be crap. Kiesels are hit or miss. Sometimes you get a good one and other times it just feels boring and dull



I've had that this weekend with my 2 Hamers. I've got 2 Californians and one is beat up, dot inlays, no backplate, dot inlays and no binding and the other has the ticks, binding, decent FR and looks like quality pups but I plugged it in and it just sounded flat. It looks better, and feels OK to play, but it has no soul atm. The bashed in one absolutely sings. 

Guitars are weird things, they can be things of beauty made out of the best of everything available by a master builder, and still be uninspiring to play.


----------



## Alberto7

Hollowway said:


> I posted about this a couple of years ago, and it looks like other people are noticing it, as well. Kiesel likes to make it look like stuff is on a bigger sale by changing the original sale price, rather than actually discounting it further. Seems like an unethical way to approach it. And I’m pretty sure it’s illegal.
> 
> View attachment 87135



Have I been away from the guitar scene for so long that inflation has had time to drive prices down from $2k decked-out Carvins to 5x that? 

In all seriousness, 10k for a guitar (let alone a friggin' Kiesel)... I don't know how to stomach that. I already struggle with a $5k Aristides, but I can kinda understand it.

I hope whoever buys it is REALLY happy with it. They better be.


----------



## mbardu

Alberto7 said:


> Have I been away from the guitar scene for so long that inflation has had time to drive prices down from $2k decked-out Carvins to 5x that?
> 
> In all seriousness, 10k for a guitar (let alone a friggin' Kiesel)... I don't know how to stomach that. I already struggle with a $5k Aristides, but I can kinda understand it.
> 
> I hope whoever buys it is REALLY happy with it. They better be.



There's really been a double effect here. Inflation is one part of it, but they also offer way more options than they used to in the past.
Most of the very expensive cosmetic things you get today (7 piece flamed necks with colors, custom hand finish on 7A grade tops with 5 piece body and headstock like in the aforementioned 10k guitars) were simply not possible in the past. If you limit yourself to the Carvin catalog as of 10 years ago (few wood options, combinations and finishes), there's 0 way to get to 10k. After that, it's not saying that any of the above is worth 10k IMO (far from it)- but it's just not an apples to apples comparison. 
Plus the 10k examples are few and far between (I'd say maybe a handful) showpieces. Not that it's worth it even at this price, but for your 5k Aristides, you definitely get a _*very *_decked out Kiesel already.

And there, the Aristides comparison is interesting from a value proposition and in particular the "effort" standpoint.
They are awesome, and can definitely be "worth it" but let's face it. Once they have the molds in place, their guitars are "easier" to build, and are probably very high margin instruments. Especially on the majority of the guitars which have very little aesthetic flourish. I suspect higher margin than Kiesel considering building the guitar is basically pushing a button to basically fill some foam into place  . I exaggerate of course, but quite a bit less manual work than the woodworking and setup work that go into traditional guitars.


----------



## Hollowway

Albake21 said:


> As someone who used to work at JCPenney, this is exactly how it worked. We would have "sales", "door buster sales" and then "black friday sales". What really was going on here was that the "sale" price was the actual street price, so that it was considered always on sale. When you see something that's a "door buster sale" that's when something was actually on sale. Every weekend most items would turn over to a door buster sales. For black friday though, they would remove the "sale" price a week before black friday and set it to no sale. This was a fourth price which was MSRP price. In other words, they would jack up the price of items 1 or 2 weeks before black friday. When the day would come around they would set the black friday prices to whatever the "door buster" price was. In other words, JCPenney is just one big scam and I can guarantee plenty of other retailers do the same.


Ya, I remember from a few years ago that Ron Johnson left Apple (where he came up with the wildly successful concept of Apple retail stores) to be the CEO of JCP. He wanted to get rid of the ridiculous constant sales, and just market the item as always low priced. Long story short the company itself, and then the customers were mad because the missed their sales.  I just some people just want the illusion of getting a deal.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> There's really been a double effect here. Inflation is one part of it, but they also offer way more options than they used to in the past.
> Most of the very expensive cosmetic things you get today (7 piece flamed necks with colors, custom hand finish on 7A grade tops with 5 piece body and headstock like in the aforementioned 10k guitars) were simply not possible in the past. If you limit yourself to the Carvin catalog as of 10 years ago (few wood options, combinations and finishes), there's 0 way to get to 10k. After that, it's not saying that any of the above is worth 10k IMO (far from it)- but it's just not an apples to apples comparison.
> Plus the 10k examples are few and far between (I'd say maybe a handful) showpieces. Not that it's worth it even at this price, but for your 5k Aristides, you definitely get a _*very *_decked out Kiesel already.
> 
> And there, the Aristides comparison is interesting from a value proposition and in particular the "effort" standpoint.
> They are awesome, and can definitely be "worth it" but let's face it. Once they have the molds in place, their guitars are "easier" to build, and are probably very high margin instruments. Especially on the majority of the guitars which have very little aesthetic flourish. I suspect higher margin than Kiesel considering building the guitar is basically pushing a button to basically fill some foam into place  . I exaggerate of course, but quite a bit less manual work than the woodworking and setup work that go into traditional guitars.



What you achieve in the way of simplifying any process is an increase in *consistency*. A complicated build process isn't anything to boast about all things considered. That's when you err on the weird argument that anything "handmade" is somehow superior to a repeatable process. 

Assembling layers to a mold, and prepping for the Arium Injection, then all the sanding and prep work still occurs before you lay primer down and get a paint job on an Aristides. If we're simplifying the "press here to fill with arium", then in equal proportion we can simplify how much a CNC machine makes Kiesel's job easier  . Milling bodies as close as possible before Kiesel's final sanding and shaping occurs is if anything pretty similar work for the output.

When Aristides didn't have a large queue filled with orders, you could order one and have it in your hands in just over 2 months. A smaller factory delivering instruments in the same timespan with a far smaller workforce is actually impressive IMO.


----------



## Avedas

Alberto7 said:


> Have I been away from the guitar scene for so long that inflation has had time to drive prices down from $2k decked-out Carvins to 5x that?
> 
> In all seriousness, 10k for a guitar (let alone a friggin' Kiesel)... I don't know how to stomach that. I already struggle with a $5k Aristides, but I can kinda understand it.
> 
> I hope whoever buys it is REALLY happy with it. They better be.


How do you even spec out a $5k Aristides? Do you mean CAD? Because that's like, 2015 Canada's fault


----------



## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> some people just want the illusion of getting a deal.



That explains the American health care system.

"This pill is $440."

"What? That's insane!"

"Well, without insurance, it'd cost $4,600."

"Oh...ok...I guess that's not that bad of a deal..."

_Meanwhile, it's $17 in Mexico and $22 in Canada_


----------



## bigcupholder

Restarted said:


> I love how they've tamed the sheep in that group. "Not saying it's wrong" fucking lol. Can't even point to illegal shit without being scared to offend their overlords.
> 
> Edit: reading this after I clicked post, it's too harshly worded and the point is misdirected, but I'll keep it because I still can't figure out any other way to phrase my point. But this is why I hate social media and cult-like groups. Fear of exclusion is real and dangerous to take advantage of. Fuck Kiesel


Yeah I like their guitars but that Facebook group makes me cringe most days. All the Jeff worship and "join the family" nonsense is creepy as hell. And they'll repost a picture that Kiesel posted earlier in the day with a caption like "OMG now I need to sell something to buy a guitar with this finish"


----------



## mbardu

bigcupholder said:


> "OMG now I need to sell something to buy a guitar with this finish"



Now, I have heard that the Kiesel Facebook group is bad with fanboyism...but since we're talking about Aristides...are you sure that last quote is not from _their _group? Cause that is typically the Aristides owner motto


----------



## diagrammatiks

nah bro. the aristides facebook group is full of streaming millionaires with 25 aristides each.
they don't got time for drama.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> nah bro. the aristides facebook group is full of streaming millionaires with 25 aristides each.
> they don't got time for drama.



Yeah, not the drama part.
Just the "I absolutely need one more of that exact same guitar, but in that other color" part


----------



## MaxOfMetal

All the brand specific FB groups are absolute gutters. 

That said, the Kiesel and Ormsby ones seem to be the most toxic I've seen as far as brands big enough and instruments cheap enough to have a certain following that aren't tied to large mainstream companies. {Dis}Honorable mention to certain BCR and, weirdly to enough, ESP/LTD groups. 

Though I haven't checked into either in a long while, so maybe it's gotten better...or worse.


----------



## Hoss632

MaxOfMetal said:


> All the brand specific FB groups are absolute gutters.
> 
> That said, the Kiesel and Ormsby ones seem to be the most toxic I've seen as far as brands big enough and instruments cheap enough to have a certain following that aren't tied to large mainstream companies. {Dis}Honorable mention to certain BCR and, weirdly to enough, ESP/LTD groups.
> 
> Though I haven't checked into either in a long while, so maybe it's gotten better...or worse.


For me the Kiesel group has been the best one to be in as far as talking with folks and getting good info. Fender/Squier and the Solar guitar groups so far for me have been the absolute worst in terms of douchebags. Ormsby I won't even go near honestly. The Schecter owners group actually isn't bad either.


----------



## Restarted

mbardu said:


> Now, I have heard that the Kiesel Facebook group is bad with fanboyism...but since we're talking about Aristides...are you sure that last quote is not from _their _group? Cause that is typically the Aristides owner motto



Aristides owners don't need to sell anything to get the new finish or model like the Kiesel peasants.

But seriously, every brand group is filled with fanboyism. I don't have anyone IRL, other than my wife occasionally humouring me, to geek out over guitars with. The Aristides group helps with that. But there's no cult-like feeling to it. There's no Jeff figure we all need to respect and tread lightly around. It's not a "family". It's more like a gang of 14 year olds.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Hoss632 said:


> The Schecter owners group actually isn't bad either.



That group is pretty good anytime it does pop up on my feed. It’s mostly filled with beginners so posters are just filled with that enthusiastic youthful energy you get when you start off. Then someone says A7X sucks or Ibanez are better and the group has a meltdown for a few days.


----------



## laxu

bigcupholder said:


> Yeah I like their guitars but that Facebook group makes me cringe most days. All the Jeff worship and "join the family" nonsense is creepy as hell. And they'll repost a picture that Kiesel posted earlier in the day with a caption like "OMG now I need to sell something to buy a guitar with this finish"



Welcome to the world of marketing. You will see that from any brand and of course there will be fans who build their identity around a brand in absence of cultivating an interesting personality of their own. Happens whether it's Playstation vs Xbox, Apple vs Android, whatever sports teams, political parties etc. These kind of fans are the worst as they will see any negativity as a slight against their person when in reality a company is not going to care about you.

The "join the family" thing was less creepy when you think that Carvin/Kiesel was historically a family owned business so I guess they wanted to have that kind of "we want to treat you like a family member" vibe in their marketing. While Jeff Kiesel has improved the brand's visibility a lot by marketing towards modern metal fans and shifting the guitar designs toward that, where they failed was all the customer service blunders in the 5 years or so. I suppose that's a toxic family you joined and that's probably not what folks were looking for.

For the record I am still extremely happy with both my 2015 Kiesel Aries AM7 and 2010 Carvin C66. I was well treated by their customer rep Chris Hong and some minor cosmetic issues with the Aries were solved amicably and professionally with a refund larger than the beer money I asked for. I think the company would be better if customer relations were left to their customer reps and Jeff only did the online marketing and guitar designs. He has too much ego to be the guy working with customers directly. I haven't been following Kiesel much lately so I don't know if they have had any customer service debacles in the past few years so maybe they have changed things for the better.


----------



## Matt08642

SDMFVan said:


> Who are the people paying $10k for a Kiesel??



I'd imagine YouTubers who exist solely to "Review" gear and make perpetual commercials for it (Spoiler: Every single piece of gear is aMaZiNg!!) and the dentist/lawyer/oil rig/other very lucrative career crowd.

Oil dudes in Alberta all drive $150k modded trucks for fun, I wouldn't be surprised if those same people bought a $10,000 guitar for fun. I can't say I'd get a 10k kiesel if I was loaded, but I probably wouldn't be looking at $800 guitars either *shrug*


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

laxu said:


> The "join the family" thing was less creepy when you think that Carvin/Kiesel was historically a family owned business so I guess they wanted to have that kind of "we want to treat you like a family member" vibe in their marketing.


I mean, we all have family squabbles, right? All families have their issues, right? 

You want to join a family? Then we are going to treat you like family.

Seems like ol' Jeff is just the trailer park uncle whom the younger kids like to be around at family gatherings (for whatever reason) while the adults simply tolerate his presence for said occasional gathering while he sits in a corner, drinks cheap/shitty beer, and makes asinine comments.



laxu said:


> I suppose that's a toxic family you joined and that's probably not what folks were looking for.


There we go!


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Something I have always wondered, Who rates their tops? If they are doing it in house, then how are those ratings trustworthy?


----------



## bigcupholder

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Something I have always wondered, Who rates their tops? If they are doing it in house, then how are those ratings trustworthy?


Every company rates their own tops.

Kiesel's 4A tops seem a lot nicer than Gibson's 4A for example.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Something I have always wondered, Who rates their tops? If they are doing it in house, then how are those ratings trustworthy?



It's all arbitrary. 

There is no system to grade tops. The manufacturer just decides what they feel falls into whatever category based on opinion. 

Some lumber yards will get in on it, but again, there is no "official" process to grade the figuring in wood. No industry standard or governing body.


----------



## spudmunkey

In the case of Kiesel, one person does all of the grading: Jeff. He also selects each higher-grade top for every build with 5A or 7A ("Master grade").

But, yeah: there's no official industry standards or governing body for wood grading. That's also why many companies have their own "branding" like "wood library", "10 top", "Master grade", etc.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

So with that answer, how can we really trust that we get a master grade top when it is all just some made up top grading system with no official standard.

that is like saying your kid is better because you made him.


----------



## mbardu

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> So with that answer, how can we really trust that we get a master grade top when it is all just some made up top grading system with no official standard.
> 
> that is like saying your kid is better because you made him.



You just have to understand that "master grade top" is not objective and won't ever be.
There's nothing that defines such a thing, and it won't have an objective market value either.
It's just arbitrary grading of how good something looks, and it's like you said- you can decide to _trust _it or not.

The best you can do get some insight is look at what a particular builder calls what most of the time, and see if you're OK to pay the $$$ for something "similar" or in the same ballpark.

Both the subjective quality of the tops and what "similar" means will vary from builder to builder too.
I'd say Gibson is probably among the worst in that area, Jackson as well, and the best would probably be things like Suhr or Anderson, who consistently have great stuff (even on "stock" stuff like the pro Suhr). Kiesel is average+ to good in both categories I'd say. Their base figured woods are usually already very nice, and you hardly ever have tops that suck or lack figure altogether. I've seen way more bad PRS 10-tops than bad Kiesel base tops, and for what it's worth I don't think I've seen a bad Kiesel 5A or 7A. Or at least what _they call_ 7A, which is a bit ridiculous in and of itself as a way to try and one-up the typical 5As 

The reasons why I would _not_ go with that option with them though is that, counterintuitively, their base tops already being pretty good, there's not a ton of benefit to paying for those upgrades... and the cosmetic upgrades in general have become so expensive with Kiesel that you lose a good chunk of their value proposition in the "custom with great bang for the buck" category.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> So with that answer, how can we really trust that we get a master grade top when it is all just some made up top grading system with no official standard.



"Jeff Kiesel" & "trustworthy" are not generally words spoken in the same sentence... not around here anyway.

Fwiw- Not sure what Kiesel is willing to do for potential clients these days but I would request as many images of the top as they're willing to provide. Even unfinished, you can still get a decent idea of the grain/ pattern and how it'll possibly look after finishing.


----------



## Hoss632

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> So with that answer, how can we really trust that we get a master grade top when it is all just some made up top grading system with no official standard.
> 
> that is like saying your kid is better because you made him.


As mentioned Kiesel's standard 4A tops are already usually quite good. 5A and 7A tops are always exceptional. In fact I can honestly say I've never seen a bad 5a or above top from Kiesel regardless of what top wood is being used.


----------



## spudmunkey

To me, there are still some "meh" tops that slip through their standard 4A grade. So I could absolutely see the 5A being a worthwhile upgrade. Not because 5A are much better, but it filters out those few "meh" tops.

I mean...you can "trust" or not, but I'm not sure I've ever heard someone complain about an up-graded top not being up-to-par, except for a quirky spot in the grain/figuring, or something. You can talk to a salesperson and they can send some photos, but I guarantee that the subtle characteristic difference between 5A and 7A may not be as apparent in photos as they would be in person, when you can move pieces around in the light.


----------



## mbardu

mbardu said:


> The reasons why I would _not_ go with that option with them though is that, counterintuitively, their base tops already being pretty good, there's not a ton of benefit to paying for those upgrades... and the cosmetic upgrades in general have become so expensive with Kiesel that you lose a good chunk of their value proposition in the "custom with great bang for the buck" category.



And this is the part I realize I'm dumb while re-reading myself, as I realize that the 3 Carvin/Kiesels I have left actually all have upgraded handpicked flamed top .


----------



## RevelGTR

Has anyone seen the thread in the FB group with all the headless necks cracking? I was one day away from ordering an Osiris but now I’m hesitant. At first it looked like just roasted maple, but the worst is a guy with a 5 piece non roasted neck.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> Has anyone seen the thread in the FB group with all the headless necks cracking? I was one day away from ordering an Osiris but now I’m hesitant. At first it looked like just roasted maple, but the worst is a guy with a 5 piece non roasted neck.



I had not, but I have now, thanks.
That's big *BIG YIKES *


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> I had not, but I ahve now, thanks.
> That's BIG *YIKES *
> 
> View attachment 87352


For sure, I’m not a Kiesel hater at all but it does make me a bit nervous. I may use that money for the half down on an Aristides headless instead.


----------



## Supernaut

Great, now you got me checking my headless


----------



## mbardu

Looks like a design flaw when you look at it. Thin neck profile shaving off a bunch off the back already, carbon rods, truss rod, screws for the nut - all that in the same area and leaving little wood...which means that on more "fragile" stuff (roasted maple or muliply with poor gluing)...it's welcome to snap city!

Jeff being Jeff had not necessarily turned me off of Kiesels, but this is certainly going to put my plans for a Leia on hold.
Just like the neck joint on recent bolt-ons had turned me off of their vanquish.
Turns out bringing in all those new designs to a brand which had had a fairly stable catalog for a pretty long time has not been entirely harmless!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

RevelGTR said:


> For sure, I’m not a Kiesel hater at all but it does make me a bit nervous. I may use that money for the half down on an Aristides headless instead.


you definitely wouldn't see this kind of issue with an Aristides due to their construction method.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> For sure, I’m not a Kiesel hater at all but it does make me a bit nervous. I may use that money for the half down on an Aristides headless instead.



Same boat. As far as I'm concerned it means that if I'm able to get another custom build in the medium term, the Vandermeij may come before the Kiesel headless.


----------



## Seabeast2000

48-piece transverse laminate necks don't do this.


----------



## technomancer

mbardu said:


> I had not, but I have now, thanks.
> That's big *BIG YIKES *
> 
> View attachment 87353



I will see that yikes and raise you a ZOINKIES! I've been considering a Vader or Leia build but nope nope nope


----------



## Matt08642

mbardu said:


> I had not, but I have now, thanks.
> That's big *BIG YIKES *
> 
> View attachment 87353



Is this guy claiming it just exploded out of nowhere or what? Seems unlikely this would be a widespread issue considering how Kiesel's big thing for so long was offering headless stuff and they aren't new to the game at all


----------



## bigcupholder

mbardu said:


> I had not, but I have now, thanks.
> That's big *BIG YIKES *
> 
> View attachment 87353


I could see the cracks in roasted maple forming with a drastic humidity change if it's as brittle as we hear, but I'm skeptical that this just happened on its own without a drop or something to break that piece free. 

I'm sure with the roasted maple stories (I've seen 2 now) that Kiesel will be eager to help that customer and keep it quiet, but it's suspicious that they've made the Vader for almost 6 years and we're only now seeing this with a non-roasted neck. They've probably made a thousand Vaders by now.


----------



## RevelGTR

Matt08642 said:


> Is this guy claiming it just exploded out of nowhere or what? Seems unlikely this would be a widespread issue considering how Kiesel's big thing for so long was offering headless stuff and they aren't new to the game at all


Check out the FB post, there are numerous people with this issue.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> Check out the FB post, there are numerous people with this issue.



Well that would be useful, and I was actually headed back there myself (I think I saw about 5 guitars with the issue in the thread but wanted to check and count) but just like that...


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

mbardu said:


> Well that would be useful, and I was actually headed back there myself (I think I saw about 5 guitars with the issue in the thread but wanted to check and count) but just like that...
> 
> View attachment 87366


Yeah there was certainly more with this issue. I recall two, three including the one in the photos in this thread.


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Well that would be useful, and I was actually headed back there myself (I think I saw about 5 guitars with the issue in the thread but wanted to check and count) but just like that...
> 
> View attachment 87366



Are you sure? Isn't this it from about 2 weeks ago?
https://m.facebook.com/groups/15314035284/permalink/10164382140350285/


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Are you sure? Isn't this it from about 2 weeks ago?
> https://m.facebook.com/groups/15314035284/permalink/10164382140350285/



Different thread, and the one I saw was at the top of the group a couple of hours ago.... but the one you link here shows 3 more examples then


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> Well that would be useful, and I was actually headed back there myself (I think I saw about 5 guitars with the issue in the thread but wanted to check and count) but just like that...
> 
> View attachment 87366


Ah yeah, no surprises there. Not to be dramatic, but this really is a bummer. I thought the Kiesel headless models seemed a touch too good to be true  And I’m sure most won’t have this issue, but if I ordered and owned one I’d never stop worrying about it. 

One thing I will say is that it’s amazing to see how public perception of Kiesel/Carvin has shifted over the years. They used to be the slightly less than “cool” cult classic brand that everyone in the know loved. Now my friends who don’t even play guitar send me posts in awe of these neon cocaine fueled badass Kiesel builds on Instagram and people in the know dunk on Kiesel more than anything. 

I remember when the DC800 came out, the amount of love and praise for Carvin on here was absolutely through the roof.


----------



## spudmunkey

Well, there's at least one thing that has stayed constant...a ton of people who will shit on their pickups no matter what they put out.


----------



## DeathbyDesign

mbardu said:


> I had not, but I have now, thanks.
> That's big *BIG YIKES *
> 
> View attachment 87353


Holy hell...this picture made me go check my Vader to ensure it wasn't starting to looking like this.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Waiting for the press conference from high profile law firm.


----------



## mbardu

Seabeast2000 said:


> Waiting for the press conference from high profile law firm.



It's not exactly total landscaping, but there's a "Four Seasons Tree Care" down in San Diego which would probably be a great spot to hold a presser!

https://fourseasonstc.com/


----------



## Matt08642

RevelGTR said:


> Check out the FB post, there are numerous people with this issue.



Oh my bad, that is much much worse


----------



## Mathemagician

spudmunkey said:


> Well, there's at least one thing that has stayed constant...a ton of people who will shit on their pickups no matter what they put out.


 I miss EMG’s.


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> Well, there's at least one thing that has stayed constant...a ton of people who will shit on their pickups no matter what they put out.


Well I will say the pickups in the DC800 I had pack in the day were probably the worst I’ve ever heard.  But I loved the M22SD in my old V220 and I’ve heard plenty of amazing sounding recordings with Lithiums.


----------



## Randy

Ya'll don't like Jeff's new patented asymmetrical neck profile?


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Randy said:


> Ya'll don't like Jeff's new patented asymmetrical neck profile?


Huh?


----------



## Matt08642

Randy said:


> Ya'll don't like Jeff's new patented symmetrical neck profile?



Option 69 no refunds get fucked consumer


----------



## Muzz

mbardu said:


> I had not, but I have now, thanks.
> That's big *BIG YIKES *
> 
> View attachment 87353


Ahahhahahaha what? That's absolutely munted mate


----------



## cip 123

Randy said:


> Ya'll don't like Jeff's new patented asymmetrical neck profile?


Do I have to call "the guys" for that one?


----------



## Hollowway

RevelGTR said:


> Well I will say the pickups in the DC800 I had back in the day were probably the worst I’ve ever heard.



+1. I’m normally open to just about any pickup, but MAN I hate those. The only two pickups I really can’t stand are EMG HZ and the ones on my DC800.


----------



## bigcupholder

If you look at the online builder they now say the thinner neck option is not available for roasted necks. So there's definitely something to these claims about problems with headless roasted necks, because they NEVER update the website. 

I'm still not convinced that 5 piece example didn't take a big impact though.


----------



## diagrammatiks

this like really shouldn't be happening though


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bigcupholder said:


> I'm still not convinced that 5 piece example didn't take a big impact though.



I don't know, I've worked on plenty of guitars that had second lives as blunt objects, and that doesn't look like an impact. 

The glue bond should be stronger than the wood itself, so you'd have significant chiping as the glue holds and the wood around it buckles. But here it looks more like the joint had been under pressure for awhile, and then failed. You see that when stuff isn't properly prepped or the glue itself had issues (thinned too much, improper cure conditions, uneven clamping, etc.). 

You have to really hit things hard to break glue joins like that. It would have definitely damaged the surface significantly.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, I've worked on plenty of guitars that had second lives as blunt objects, and that doesn't look like an impact.
> 
> The glue bond should be stronger than the wood itself, so you'd have significant chiping as the glue holds and the wood around it buckles. But here it looks more like the joint had been under pressure for awhile, and then failed. You see that when stuff isn't properly prepped or the glue itself had issues (thinned too much, improper cure conditions, uneven clamping, etc.).
> 
> You have to really hit things hard to break glue joins like that. It would have definitely damaged the surface significantly.



In the line shown here, you MIGHT be able to see a thin strip of the maple stripe still attached to the walnut(?) next to it, meaning that the wood grain split, not the glue letting go.
Kiesel --- Never Again! | Page 197 | SevenString.org

But what sticks out the most to me is just how much of the neck's top end is sticking out past the head piece. I've never seen an example like this before. 

IN MY HEAD (and I'm not saying this is what happened!!!!!!), if i were wanting to replicate this, I'd think I'd have to rest the guitar on it's back with it's head piece itself on the very edge of a stair or curb, and then stomp on the guitar fretboard. Otherwise it looks like the whole neck expanded out the back, which is...strange and I jhust can't figure out how it happened, EVEN IF the neck wood was too thick AND too delicate.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> In the line shown here, you MIGHT be able to see a thin strip of the maple stripe still attached to the walnut(?) next to it, meaning that the wood grain split, not the glue letting go.
> Kiesel --- Never Again! | Page 197 | SevenString.org
> 
> But what sticks out the most to me is just how much of the neck's top end is sticking out past the head piece. I've never seen an example like this before.
> 
> IN MY HEAD (and I'm not saying this is what happened!!!!!!), if i were wanting to replicate this, I'd think I'd have to rest the guitar on it's back with it's head piece itself on the very edge of a stair or curb, and then stomp on the guitar fretboard. Otherwise it looks like the whole neck expanded out the back, which is...strange and I jhust can't figure out how it happened, EVEN IF the neck wood was too thick AND too delicate.



You sure have a keen eye. It indeed looks like a tiny bit of maple split, which does make more sense than the glue being somehow weak or unevenly applied (which is less likely).

Mechanically, if you were to pull super hard on the headpiece/string attachment away from the guitar, while holding the neck back...I could see where it would make sense at least directionally for the neck to pop out the back like this.... but what I'm having trouble reconciling is that I wouldn't think there is such a huge natural moment arm from the string pull to achieve that, even with brittle wood, even with all those holes there. But maybe that, and truss rod tension, and heavy strings, and climate is enough? It certainly looks like it's not an isolated incident.


----------



## Hollowway

It’s not possible that the truss rod could have caused that, is it?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hollowway said:


> It’s not possible that the truss rod could have caused that, is it?



Doubtful, but I guess it can't be entirely ruled out. Again, it would be a long shot, and would require several issues, themselves rare, to have this short of outcome. 

It's hard enough diagnosing common problems with guitars remotely.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

I feel like I'm about to ask a really stupid question ...but do guitar companies (like Kiesel) test their designs with Mechanical Engineering modeling software? I'm not a ME, but I used to work for a ME consulting company where it was a common place to use advanced stress/strain FEA (Finite Element Analysis) software to model designs and identify vulnerable points (e.g. to catastrophic failures) like in this case. Even if they don't have a resident ME, they could have hired a consultant/intern to do it for them, just saying.


----------



## mbardu

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> I feel like I'm about to ask a really stupid question ...but do guitar companies (like Kiesel) test their designs with Mechanical Engineering modeling software? I'm not a ME, but I used to work for a ME consulting company where it was a common place to use advanced stress/strain FEA (Finite Element Analysis) software to model designs and identify vulnerable points (e.g. to catastrophic failures) like in this case. Even if they don't have a resident ME, they could have hired a consultant/intern to do it for them, just saying.



Jeff Kiesel created a new model by literally (live on camera) taking an existing unfinished guitar and playing around with creating a new shape using a bandsaw to hack off some parts.
So I'm going to say....maybe _other companies _do .....?


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Jeff Kiesel created a new model by literally (live on camera) taking an existing unfinished guitar and playing around with creating a new shape using a bandsaw to hack off some parts.
> So I'm going to say....maybe _other companies _do .....?



OK, but in their defence, he re-shaped a body of a model which was just different body wings attached to the main structure of a model that have carried since, what, 2015? And that wasn't the final shape, that was "for show", and then made two follow-up prototypes to finalize the actual shape. So, yeah.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> OK, but in their defence, he re-shaped a body of a model which was just different body wings attached to the main structure of a model that have carried since, what, 2015? And that wasn't the final shape, that was "for show", and then made two follow-up prototypes to finalize the actual shape. So, yeah.



Yeah I know. I am 100% sure that the slight change in shape of the body would have 0 effect on the structure of the neck...so that was really just a joke


----------



## RevelGTR

bigcupholder said:


> If you look at the online builder they now say the thinner neck option is not available for roasted necks. So there's definitely something to these claims about problems with headless roasted necks, because they NEVER update the website.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that 5 piece example didn't take a big impact though.



This makes me feel worse, not better. Plenty of companies offer thin roasted necks with no issues and there are certainly headless guitars with roasted necks and no issues.


----------



## cip 123

bigcupholder said:


> If you look at the online builder they now say the thinner neck option is not available for roasted necks. So there's definitely something to these claims about problems with headless roasted necks, because they NEVER update the website.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that 5 piece example didn't take a big impact though.


Ibanez have been making the thinnest necks in the game for years, with what some might say is comparatively “weaker” designs/woods. And I’ve never seen anything like this from them.


----------



## Supernaut

Yeah most Ibanez' have a volute where the headstock reaches the body, so it's like Apple's and Oranges when compared to the Kiesel headless design.

Ibanez also had issues for YEARS with the wizard profiles warping, there's a reason they went from 17mm to 19mm on the mass production RG's until the reinforcement.

Looking at the Kiesel necks - looks like it's more to do with the glue they're using for the lamination rather than roasted maple (that pic doesn't look like roasted but I may be incorrect).


----------



## cip 123

Supernaut said:


> Yeah most Ibanez' have a volute where the headstock reaches the body, so it's like Apple's and Oranges when compared to the Kiesel headless design.
> 
> Ibanez also had issues for YEARS with the wizard profiles warping, there's a reason they went from 17mm to 19mm on the mass production RG's until the reinforcement.
> 
> Looking at the Kiesel necks - looks like it's more to do with the glue they're using for the lamination rather than roasted maple (that pic doesn't look like roasted but I may be incorrect).


Some don’t have volutes though, and are pretty much the same construction maple/walnut. I realise it how they differ but if I was to pick one to break it’d be the Ibanez due to the headstock being more vulnerable to being hit etc.

I’d think it’s glue too, I’m more just excited to see how Jeff spins this one in all honesty


----------



## bigcupholder

Supernaut said:


> Yeah most Ibanez' have a volute where the headstock reaches the body, so it's like Apple's and Oranges when compared to the Kiesel headless design.
> 
> Ibanez also had issues for YEARS with the wizard profiles warping, there's a reason they went from 17mm to 19mm on the mass production RG's until the reinforcement.
> 
> Looking at the Kiesel necks - looks like it's more to do with the glue they're using for the lamination rather than roasted maple (that pic doesn't look like roasted but I may be incorrect).


I'm referring to the other pictures in that Facebook thread. They're all roasted.

That's why I said in a previous post that I think the 5 piece neck (unroasted) is an outlier. It doesn't just have cracks forming, it looks like it exploded. While one ply is sticking out more, they're all sticking out past the head piece, which isn't normal. So I think that one took a big impact, directly against the head piece towards the body.


----------



## trem licking

Looking like too little wood/too little glue to me. Lots of truss pressure there. Needs a headless volute and a longer rod. Or thicker neck


----------



## kuma

I'm no expert at all, but the one difference between the Kiesel headless models and everyone else's is the way the headpiece is mounted. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're the only company mounting the headpiece perpendicular to the fretboard, drilling into the end of the neck where the headstock would be. Everyone else seems to top mount the headpiece, parallel to the fretboard. This is one of the things they had Hipshot change for them. Wonder if that could be contributing to the problem.

I felt the same about the 5-piece neck until I saw a second one with the headpiece off, was pretty clear it was a material failure. Was also surprised to see the number of these that also had cracks between the headpiece mounting holes and the truss rod hole.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> Doubtful, but I guess it can't be entirely ruled out. Again, it would be a long shot, and would require several issues, themselves rare, to have this short of outcome.
> 
> It's hard enough diagnosing common problems with guitars remotely.



First uneducated glance, I would immediately think that nut head went too far in. Steel > wood.


----------



## foreright

kuma said:


> I'm no expert at all, but the one difference between the Kiesel headless models and everyone else's is the way the headpiece is mounted. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're the only company mounting the headpiece perpendicular to the fretboard, drilling into the end of the neck where the headstock would be. Everyone else seems to top mount the headpiece, parallel to the fretboard. This is one of the things they had Hipshot change for them. Wonder if that could be contributing to the problem.
> 
> I felt the same about the 5-piece neck until I saw a second one with the headpiece off, was pretty clear it was a material failure. Was also surprised to see the number of these that also had cracks between the headpiece mounting holes and the truss rod hole.



My Hohner G3T and I'm guessing the Steinberger Spirit guitars have the headpiece mounted in the same way with the truss rod access at the top of the neck. I've built a guitar doing this also recently - it's perfectly fine as the headpiece is being mostly pulled into the top of the neck rather than being pulled upwards. That looks like some kind of truss rod + neck laminate glueing issue to me. Maybe they forced the truss rod and there was a bad glue joint but either way that clearly shouldn't be happening


----------



## Randy

Yeah that's the OG headpiece design and I've never seen them blow out like that.

Probably just a poorly glued joint, which happens. I've also never been a fan of headstock adjustment dual action truss rods. Scary little wood along the spine with how much they taper up that high.

I'm less concerned with a fuckup considering how many guitars that make, and more concerned with how its handled. Dunno if we have heard what they did for the guy that posted that, but the "deleting the whole thread on FB" thing is more of that stupidly Kiesel cover-up cult bullshit. Own that you made a mistake, handle it and let everyone know it was resolved. Stop acting like you never fuck up, that's the part that gets you in trouble.


----------



## technomancer

Randy said:


> Yeah that's the OG headpiece design and I've never seen them blow out like that.
> 
> Probably just a poorly glued joint, which happens. I've also never been a fan of headstock adjustment dual action truss rods. Scary little wood along the spine with how much they taper up that high.
> 
> I'm less concerned with a fuckup considering how many guitars that make, and more concerned with how its handled. Dunno if we have heard what they did for the guy that posted that, but the "deleting the whole thread on FB" thing is more of that stupidly Kiesel cover-up cult bullshit. Own that you made a mistake, handle it and let everyone know it was resolved. Stop acting like you never fuck up, that's the part that gets you in trouble.



Give it time, I'm sure Jeff will be posting a video insulting the customers and insisting his guitars are perfect and it was somehow user error any time now


----------



## Randy

I'm sure you find dudes that have bad experiences with PRS, but part of their ethos is the thing about bandsawing finished guitars if they're not up to standard. It's done their reputation well.

From a 'reputation for standards' point of view, the next best thing from never making a mistake (which is impossible), is looking like you own your mistakes, then learn from and fix them. If I'm Kiesel, I comment in that FB thread saying 'my bad, we'll send you a new one' VLOG what happened and how you fixed it, and shoot a video of you blowing the fuckin thing up or something.

PMing the guy and extorting him into taking down the Facebook post or deleting it yourself just looks slimy and it's not like people are going to somehow forget it happened anyway.


----------



## technomancer

Randy said:


> I'm sure you find dudes that have bad experiences with PRS, but part of their ethos is the thing about bandsawing finished guitars if they're not up to standard. It's done their reputation well.
> 
> From a 'reputation for standards' point of view, the next best thing from never making a mistake (which is impossible), is looking like you own your mistakes, then learn from and fix them. If I'm Kiesel, I comment in that FB thread saying 'my bad, we'll send you a new one' VLOG what happened and how you fixed it, and shoot a video of you blowing the fuckin thing up or something.
> 
> PMing the guy and extorting him into taking down the Facebook post or deleting it yourself just looks slimy and it's not like people are going to somehow forget it happened anyway.



I've had 2 issues with PRS guitars, both of them were shipped back to the factory and fixed entirely on their dime. One was a used guitar with a finish issue that happened in shipping from the store I bought it from...


----------



## mbardu

There's a bit of everything again here.

They're "moderating" (*cough* _censoring _*cough*) their own marketing Facebook channel, an although that looks shady, it's business as usual for all brands.

Comparison to PRS is OK, their customer service is certainly good.
But talking about bandsawing sub-par guitars, Carvin/Kiesel has been shown to do that as well, and it's clearly not applicable here because it's an issue that happened down the road, not at initial inspection time.
Plus any of the issues with the neck cracking will be taken care of under warranty as well, that's pretty much guaranteed, no doubt about it - so returns and warranty fix at the factory are OK too.

Biggest issue here at least IMHO is that it may be a significant design flaw across many guitars and that should be addressed. Certainly different from the one-offs that at least I have seen in the past.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I've owned multiple headless from kiesel and never seen that kind of damage. The 5 ply neck looks like it was dropped/ damaged as normally the headpiece is flush with the neck. There's no discernible transition between the headpiece and neck on my zm7 or the vaders I've owned.


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> I've owned multiple headless from kiesel and never seen that kind of damage. The 5 ply neck looks like it was dropped/ damaged as normally the headpiece is flush with the neck. There's no discernible transition between the headpiece and neck on my zm7 or the vaders I've owned.



It looks like the pressure from the truss rod blew the neck apart, which basically should not happen. I'm not sure how you could put pressure from inside the neck outwards like that by dropping it, especially without leaving any other damage.


----------



## bigcupholder

technomancer said:


> It looks like the pressure from the truss rod blew the neck apart, which basically should not happen. I'm not sure how you could put pressure from inside the neck outwards like that by dropping it, especially without leaving any other damage.


But it's not only the middle ply that's popped out. They're *all* sticking out the back of the head piece, which isn't how that neck is designed unless they bought a super thick profile that I'm not aware of Kiesel making.

If you hit the end down into the neck, I could see how the wood might splinter out like that. But the truss rod theory doesn't explain that all 5 neck pieces are sticking out behind the head piece.


----------



## bigcupholder

Randy said:


> Yeah that's the OG headpiece design and I've never seen them blow out like that.
> 
> Probably just a poorly glued joint, which happens. I've also never been a fan of headstock adjustment dual action truss rods. Scary little wood along the spine with how much they taper up that high.
> 
> I'm less concerned with a fuckup considering how many guitars that make, and more concerned with how its handled. Dunno if we have heard what they did for the guy that posted that, but the "deleting the whole thread on FB" thing is more of that stupidly Kiesel cover-up cult bullshit. Own that you made a mistake, handle it and let everyone know it was resolved. Stop acting like you never fuck up, that's the part that gets you in trouble.



The thread is still on the Facebook group when I checked just now...


----------



## Randy

bigcupholder said:


> The thread is still on the Facebook group when I checked just now...



Oh okay. I thought someone earlier said it was gone, my mistake.


----------



## mbardu

Randy said:


> Oh okay. I thought someone earlier said it was gone, my mistake.



I said it because I was not able to see it when I was trying to go back to it.
But indeed, now it's there if you scroll enough. Maybe I need glasses


----------



## cip 123

I’d love to see some of these other pictures, I’m not on Facebook anymore but it’s times like these I’m missing out


----------



## Randy

Fwiw, my assumption was based on previous times people posted Kiesel problems on here and then PM'd me to delete their posts because Jeff was fixing them contingent on deleting their negative post on here. So it was not entirely far fetched.

Any update on how this was resolved?


----------



## RevelGTR

Looks like we can confirm that it’s definitely NOT just roasted necks. 

View media item 3586


----------



## Soya

Ouchy, also interesting that the mounting hardware is off center of the neck laminations. Definitely looks like the pilot holes for the threaded inserts were drilled under size.


----------



## cip 123

Are the ends of the necks, under the hardware properly finished?


----------



## Hollowway

Given that these are built systematically, this worries me that a lot of these are going to be subject to this happening. If this were a car they’d probably do a recall. 

anyone know if the instances posted were the thinner neck option?


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Hollowway said:


> Given that these are built systematically, this worries me that a lot of these are going to be subject to this happening. If this were a car they’d probably do a recall.
> 
> anyone know if the instances posted were the thinner neck option?


They look to me like they are the thinner version.


----------



## Matt08642

RevelGTR said:


> Looks like we can confirm that it’s definitely NOT just roasted necks.
> 
> View media item 3586



Damn this sucks.


----------



## RevelGTR

Kinda sad seeing the fanboys try to justify this in the comments section with “Well Jeff said roasted necks can be weak and brittle but we made him offer them anyway!!1!!1” and blatantly ignore the non roasted necks with cracks. 

People are also trying to blame the thinner neck option and ignoring the fact that most of these examples also have cracks from the head piece mounting points to the truss rod.


----------



## trem licking

Im thinking mounting the hardware into endgrain is a bad idea... Whoops. Lookin like they need a volute on these as well, or perhaps more/better glue


----------



## Edika

Wouldn't the cracks on the mounting points be by overtitghtening the headless hardware? Seems like compressive stress fractures.


----------



## Trinity Prescott

How are these ass clowns still in business? Just like carvin, mark my words, in ten years they will be dusty Craigslist guitars that don’t hold any value. I absolutely cannot believe this kiesel craze is still a thing. Knock it off!


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Trinity Prescott said:


> How are these ass clowns still in business? Just like carvin, mark my words, in ten years they will be dusty Craigslist guitars that don’t hold any value. I absolutely cannot believe this kiesel craze is still a thing. Knock it off!



As someone who buys guitars to try them and catalog them, I will not even touch Kiesel because the resale value is always like 70 percent of original puirchase price. @Hollowway has like 5 of my old kiesels LOL


----------



## technomancer

RevelGTR said:


> Kinda sad seeing the fanboys try to justify this in the comments section with “Well Jeff said roasted necks can be weak and brittle but we made him offer them anyway!!1!!1” and blatantly ignore the non roasted necks with cracks.
> 
> People are also trying to blame the thinner neck option and ignoring the fact that most of these examples also have cracks from the head piece mounting points to the truss rod.



Even just watching this place the fans will literally justify anything and everything regardless of the circumstances... it's true of most brand loyalty and especially true of the newer facebook cult marketing approach companies



r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> As someone who buys guitars to try them and catalog them, I will not even touch Kiesel because the resale value is always like 70 percent of original puirchase price. @Hollowway has like 5 of my old kiesels LOL



What's hilarious is watching the Kiesel buy/sell group I'm on with guys posting used Kiesels for pretty much new price then pulling them and relisting them over, and over, and over...


----------



## bigcupholder

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> As someone who buys guitars to try them and catalog them, I will not even touch Kiesel because the resale value is always like 70 percent of original puirchase price. @Hollowway has like 5 of my old kiesels LOL


Every guitar that isn't old enough or rare enough to be collectable sells for 60-70% of the new price. With the pandemic buying spree on guitars, add 5% to that range currently (65%-75%). Custom/boutique builders with year long wait times might hit a higher percentage because people don't want to wait a year, but guitars of comparable cost from Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ESP, Jackson, etc all have similar resale to Kiesel at this point.

And don't confuse companies raising their prices with good resale. A ten year old Ibanez Prestige that costs twice as much now isn't a valid comparison (because you can't buy a brand new 10 year old guitar for the original price). Compare what you'd pay for a brand new guitar from any of those brands with what you could sell it for 6 months later. Otherwise you're just betting on which companies will raise their prices more over the next decade, which I'd actually bet Kiesel is more likely to do (and has more room to do).

The knock on Carvin was that resale was closer to 50%, sometimes less. 70% is totally fine.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

bigcupholder said:


> Every guitar that isn't old enough or rare enough to be collectable sells for 60-70% of the new price. With the pandemic buying spree on guitars, add 5% to that range currently (65%-75%). Custom/boutique builders with year long wait times might hit a higher percentage because people don't want to wait a year, but guitars of comparable cost from Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ESP, Jackson, etc all have similar resale to Kiesel at this point.
> 
> And don't confuse companies raising their prices with good resale. A ten year old Ibanez Prestige that costs twice as much now isn't a valid comparison (because you can't buy a brand new 10 year old guitar for the original price). Compare what you'd pay for a brand new guitar from any of those brands with what you could sell it for 6 months later. Otherwise you're just betting on which companies will raise their prices more over the next decade, which I'd actually bet Kiesel is more likely to do (and has more room to do).
> 
> The knock on Carvin was that resale was closer to 50%, sometimes less. 70% is totally fine.



Kiesel holds no value when it comes to their custom instruments. Example: I buy a guitar with special dookie burst that cost 800 bucks to be done by his majesty. That 800 means nothing to resale value. Best way to look at reselling a kiesel is to look at base price. Your custom options don’t mean crap when it comes to resale. 

Also kiesel price raises have only been like 200-300 over the past few years. They will raise the price on populat options. I just don’t buy kiesel because I always lose money used or new on them.


----------



## Hollowway

Someone needs to tell the guys selling online that Kiesels sell for 70% of new value.  Those dudes are literally listing stuff at 100% of new. 

I also checked my Vader’s headpiece. It doesn’t line up 100% with the neck. The headpiece is wider on one side and the neck sticks out wider than the headpiece on the center of the back. Which is weird because you’d think they would machine the neck to line up 100%. It’s not separating, etc, so I’m not worried about it. But it is a little weird.


----------



## cip 123

Hollowway said:


> Someone needs to tell the guys selling online that Kiesels sell for 70% of new value.  Those dudes are literally listing stuff at 100% of new.
> 
> I also checked my Vader’s headpiece. It doesn’t line up 100% with the neck. The headpiece is wider on one side and the neck sticks out wider than the headpiece on the center of the back. Which is weird because you’d think they would machine the neck to line up 100%. It’s not separating, etc, so I’m not worried about it. But it is a little weird.


Has it always stuck out like that? Maybe yours has moved too? 


Is it worth checking?


----------



## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> Has it always stuck out like that? Maybe yours has moved too?
> 
> 
> Is it worth checking?



Doubt it's new or unique to his guitar.
All the Kiesel headless I've seen have been that way with a slight gap.
The headpiece just a single piece made of metal and they don't machine individually to match every individual neck.


----------



## Hollowway

cip 123 said:


> Has it always stuck out like that? Maybe yours has moved too?
> 
> 
> Is it worth checking?



Yeah, I think it's like @mbardu said. I'm surprised they don't have it more accurate, because they have everything so streamlined and dialed in for stuff like this. But it doesn't particularly bother me. Unless it becomes a problem, of course!


----------



## cip 123

mbardu said:


> Doubt it's new or unique to his guitar.
> All the Kiesel headless I've seen have been that way with a slight gap.
> The headpiece just a single piece made of metal and they don't machine individually to match every individual neck.





Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I think it's like @mbardu said. I'm surprised they don't have it more accurate, because they have everything so streamlined and dialed in for stuff like this. But it doesn't particularly bother me. Unless it becomes a problem, of course!


I woulda thought they had at least machined the neck to fit the headpiece though, even with different neck profiles, it seems like such a streamline that you're cutting a corner. But hey, everyone does things differently.

I'm not on the Kiesel facebook group or anything so dunno what the deal with those cracked/delaminated necks is, just wanted to check you weren't about to encounter a similar problem!


----------



## Hollowway

cip 123 said:


> I woulda thought they had at least machined the neck to fit the headpiece though, even with different neck profiles, it seems like such a streamline that you're cutting a corner. But hey, everyone does things differently.
> 
> I'm not on the Kiesel facebook group or anything so dunno what the deal with those cracked/delaminated necks is, just wanted to check you weren't about to encounter a similar problem!



Yeah, exactly. If they can machine a neck to fit snugly in a neck pocket, I can't understand why they can't get it to line up 100% with the headpiece.


----------



## cip 123

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, exactly. If they can machine a neck to fit snugly in a neck pocket, I can't understand why they can't get it to line up 100% with the headpiece.


I think it's just a streamlining thing for production. Or just a design choice in itself. 

So many angles and points you could debate back and forth, but it's late here and I just wanted to know your neck wasn't gonna end up as another facebook post


----------



## Hollowway

cip 123 said:


> I think it's just a streamlining thing for production. Or just a design choice in itself.
> 
> So many angles and points you could debate back and forth, but it's late here and I just wanted to know your neck wasn't gonna end up as another facebook post



It seems ok so far, but I'm definitely going to think twice before fussing with the truss rod, lol.


----------



## bigcupholder

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Kiesel holds no value when it comes to their custom instruments. Example: I buy a guitar with special dookie burst that cost 800 bucks to be done by his majesty. That 800 means nothing to resale value. Best way to look at reselling a kiesel is to look at base price. Your custom options don’t mean crap when it comes to resale.
> 
> Also kiesel price raises have only been like 200-300 over the past few years. They will raise the price on populat options. I just don’t buy kiesel because I always lose money used or new on them.


Plenty of options hold their value just fine (upgraded woods, multi piece necks, trem bridges, Fishman pickups). But sure, they do let you customize something to the point where no one else could possibly like it. A small number of their guitars are truly uniquely hideous. I'm not sure that's really a strong criticism though - it's good that they're flexible.

I'd bet some options that are commonly on sale don't impact resale though, even if you paid full price (the chambering and thinner neck options are often free during sales, so no one cares if you paid for those).

For the vast majority of their guitars the resale is no different from other brands at a comparable price point.


----------



## Jonathan20022

bigcupholder said:


> Plenty of options hold their value just fine (upgraded woods, multi piece necks, trem bridges, Fishman pickups). But sure, they do let you customize something to the point where no one else could possibly like it. A small number of their guitars are truly uniquely hideous. I'm not sure that's really a strong criticism though - it's good that they're flexible.
> 
> I'd bet some options that are commonly on sale don't impact resale though, even if you paid full price (the chambering and thinner neck options are often free during sales, so no one cares if you paid for those).
> 
> For the vast majority of their guitars the resale is no different from other brands at a comparable price point.



That's not his point, they would add to value if you could no longer get what is being resold.

If my options as a customer, are your Aries with the upgraded fretboard material/pickups/body wood and you're trying to pass that cost on in resale. Or my other option being to simply get a new one for cheaper without those options, the new option is more attractive in every sense.

Your add-on specs only hold value if
A) Your customer values them as much as you do
B) They are no longer offered as options on new builds

And if you spec a custom instrument with the express intent of reselling it, then why are you doing it in the first place? Custom will in nearly every case mean you will lose a huge chunk of your resale upon receipt. Even moreso when the market is completely oversaturated with instruments from the brand itself anyways.


----------



## Hollowway

Jonathan20022 said:


> That's not his point, they would add to value if you could no longer get what is being resold.
> 
> If my options as a customer, are your Aries with the upgraded fretboard material/pickups/body wood and you're trying to pass that cost on in resale. Or my other option being to simply get a new one for cheaper without those options, the new option is more attractive in every sense.
> 
> Your add-on specs only hold value if
> A) Your customer values them as much as you do
> B) They are no longer offered as options on new builds
> 
> And if you spec a custom instrument with the express intent of reselling it, then why are you doing it in the first place? Custom will in nearly every case mean you will lose a huge chunk of your resale upon receipt. Even moreso when the market is completely oversaturated with instruments from the brand itself anyways.



Yeah, there's no way in hell I'm paying an additional two hundred bucks because someone wanted two mahogany stripes in their neck. There are way too many options that add up charges that don't make a huge difference to the guitar, and that is absolutely not going to translate into a higher resale price. Sure, a nice top and/or finish will. But a lot of the customization options will not. It's like after-purchase mods. Most of the time you won't get them back.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

Trinity Prescott said:


> How are these ass clowns still in business? Just like carvin, mark my words, in ten years they will be dusty Craigslist guitars that don’t hold any value. I absolutely cannot believe this kiesel craze is still a thing. Knock it off!



Not sure I get what you say about Carvin, at least from my personal experience (see my avatar). My Carvin DC700 is easily one of the best guitars I ever played. Having said that, I never felt confident enough to buy a Kiesel, and it's not like for lack of temptation. I wish them well, but this latest issue is horrid imho, feels like someone missed their 101 guitar luthier class . 

Re resale value, for me it is a non-issue if I am keeping the guitar, so it's not a factor.


----------



## Hollowway

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Not sure I get what you say about Carvin, at least from my personal experience (see my avatar). My Carvin DC700 is easily one of the best guitars I ever played. Having said that, I never felt confident enough to buy a Kiesel, and it's not like for lack of temptation. I wish them well, but this latest issue is horrid imho, feels like someone missed their 101 guitar luthier class .
> 
> Re resale value, for me it is a non-issue if I am keeping the guitar, so it's not a factor.



Yeah, IMO the quality of the instruments (both Carvin and Kiesel) are incredible. CS is a real issue with Kiesel, but it's not common that there are problems. And like you say, if you're sticking with a guitar, resale is just an academic discussion.


----------



## Jeff

This company is like an eternal tire fire that keeps burning, thanks to its confusingly loyal dim witted fans.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Jeff said:


> This company is like an eternal tire fire that keeps burning, thanks to its confusingly loyal dim witted fans.




Correct. They release TONS of great instruments, but the fact that their main guy likes to go on tirades calling out $1k+ paying customers is like... Why? The worst part is that if Jeff just said "We're sorry we fucked up, let us fix it" to EVERY one of their complaints, they'd still be making bank AND be a good company. Every other company fucks up just as much or more, but they own it, refund, and/or give you a new instrument without the blatant insults Kiesel does. They're riding a bubble of "Kiesel is cool now but won't be in 10 years." I've owned 3 Kiesel (edit (originally said "not"): after Carvin) guitars and they were mostly okay. (all had flaws, and I'm forgiving so others might not see it how I do, but they were okay guitars.) 

My favorite guitar will always be the Vader that I let get away, but I hate the company with a passion. I want my Vader back and then I don't ever want to look at the company again. Jeff being a misogynistic fuck is reason enough to never give them money personally. I want that vader back, but I don't want that money going in Jeff's pocket to ANY degree.

Cuz I'm a MAN *arm flex.*


----------



## Hollowway

Señor Voorhees said:


> Correct. They release TONS of great instruments, but the fact that their main guy likes to go on tirades calling out $1k+ paying customers is like... Why? The worst part is that if Jeff just said "We're sorry we fucked up, let us fix it" to EVERY one of their complaints, they'd still be making bank AND be a good company. Every other company fucks up just as much or more, but they own it, refund, and/or give you a new instrument without the blatant insults Kiesel does. They're riding a bubble of "Kiesel is cool now but won't be in 10 years." I've owned 3 Kiesel (edit (originally said "not"): after Carvin) guitars and they were mostly okay. (all had flaws, and I'm forgiving so others might not see it how I do, but they were okay guitars.)
> 
> My favorite guitar will always be the Vader that I let get away, but I hate the company with a passion. I want my Vader back and then I don't ever want to look at the company again. Jeff being a misogynistic fuck is reason enough to never give them money personally. I want that vader back, but I don't want that money going in Jeff's pocket to ANY degree.
> 
> Cuz I'm a MAN *arm flex.*



Exactly. People say, "yeah, well they're selling a lot of instruments," as an excuse for Jeff's lack of self esteem. But, if he were to be halfway decent with CS, we'd see them selling substantially MORE instruments. He drastically underestimates the value of customer service and good will to Kiesel's bottom line.


----------



## mbardu

Señor Voorhees said:


> *Every other company* fucks up just as much or more, but they own it, refund, and/or give you a new instrument



_[Citation needed]_

Not disagreeing on how they should improve on CS and attitude. Especially on making any of that public with that bravado attitude....I mean just...why?. At least it's been kind of quiet since Jeff "_apologized_" so that's not going in a _worse _direction at that point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

But speaking in terms of pure outcome for the large majority of customers though? Well there are plenty of companies which, maybe will not make a mess on social media, but which will definitely _*not *_own up to it, and not offer you _any _resolution in the way of a rebuild/refund/repair. And not even small names, but that includes seriously big players. There, even though they're not the leader of the pack, at least Kiesel is still average or even a good bit above depending on what you value.



Hollowway said:


> Exactly. People say, "yeah, well they're selling a lot of instruments," as an excuse for Jeff's lack of self esteem. But, if he were to be halfway decent with CS, we'd see them selling substantially MORE instruments. He drastically underestimates the value of customer service and good will to Kiesel's bottom line.



They are not really setup to produce that much more, and since they moved and retooled pretty recently, I wouldn't think they'd be interested in expanding just yet. So they couldn't really produce more in order to sell more. I suspect that's why they haven't seen any incentive to really change at this stage, just like they have not invested in a modern website or things of that nature.

All the above is par for the course though. Debated ad vitam aeternam here. As far as I'm concerned, I would like to see if there's a resolution around that headless stuff. If it's a bad design flaw, and it's widespread (issues in the past seemed to really be anecdotal/one-offs ; less so here)- then it's bad. As it stands I'm going to be a bit concerned about my Vader


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> They are not really setup to produce that much more, and since they moved and retooled pretty recently, I wouldn't think they'd be interested in expanding just yet. So they couldn't really produce more in order to sell more. I suspect that's why they haven't seen any incentive to really change at this stage, just like they have not invested in a modern website or things of that nature.



That may well be true, but my point is that good customer service and the building of goodwill can only help a business. I don't think updating a website is the same as ceasing to be an asshole to your customers.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> That may well be true, but my point is that good customer service and the building of goodwill can only help a business. I don't think updating a website is the same as ceasing to be an asshole to your customers.



Oh don't worry, you won't see me defending that part of the business, because it makes no sense to me. 
It would even be in their own best interest to not do those things I just don't get it 

My point is just trying to explain why they can still afford to be complacent (and here's the link between PR/CS and the website btw...both show complacency) and that nothing has really come back to bite them yet. The fact that they're so overwhelmed with orders unfortunately gives a good buffer to that complacency.


----------



## Hollowway

mbardu said:


> Oh don't worry, you won't see me defending that part of the business, because it makes no sense to me.
> It would even be in their own best interest to not do those things I just don't get it
> 
> My point is just trying to explain why they can still afford to be complacent (and here's the link between PR/CS and the website btw...both show complacency) and that nothing has really come back to bite them yet. The fact that they're so overwhelmed with orders unfortunately gives a good buffer to that complacency.


Yeah, that's true. They're in an enviable position, that's for sure! The maddening thing is the guitars are damn good, despite it all! I get all pissed off when I see Jeff being a jerk, but then I pick one of mine up and think, "DAMN, this is nice!"


----------



## Hollowway

Just checked out the in-stock page, as I often do. Whyyyyy must they artificially inflate prices, just to make them look like they're putting them on sale? They have a bunch of JB24s on there currently, showing as regular price of $1849, with a $200 savings, giving a "sale" price of $1649. Or you could, you know, just go in the builder and buy the same model for...$1649. It's stuff like this that just makes me scratch my head. Just list the damn thing at the price. We're not idiots. JFC


----------



## Jonathan20022

Not sure that having a threshold of complacency is ever something to consider for any business? Every business technically has one, but relying on "How many bridges I can burn before I begin losing money" is so shoddy.

That's the pump and dump methodology you see these dropship product resellers utilizing when selling on marketplaces. They don't expect to be in the market long term, burning bridges with longstanding customers over semantics where the business is wrong is an absurdly short sighted stance to take.



Hollowway said:


> Just checked out the in-stock page, as I often do. Whyyyyy must they artificially inflate prices, just to make them look like they're putting them on sale? They have a bunch of JB24s on there currently, showing as regular price of $1849, with a $200 savings, giving a "sale" price of $1649. Or you could, you know, just go in the builder and buy the same model for...$1649. It's stuff like this that just makes me scratch my head. Just list the damn thing at the price. We're not idiots. JFC



America worships Black Friday, the consumer holiday that gives every retailer in the country a free pass to pull off that practice once a year. It works because people think they're getting a deal, they're just shameless to do it in broad daylight and leave it up year round


----------



## xzacx

Complacency is one of those things you can afford until you can’t—certainly not a recipe for long term success. Constant sales and promotions aren’t exactly the sign of a company “doing so well it doesn’t want any more business.” That’s not to say I don’t think Kiesel is doing well—I think they probably do have strong sales, but I absolutely don’t believe that Jeff doesn’t want more. They’re so relatively efficient in terms of custom built guitars that they could afford to push wait times a little longer rather than expanding production, and still be pretty far ahead of any direct competition when it comes to price and time.


----------



## Trinity Prescott

bigcupholder said:


> Every guitar that isn't old enough or rare enough to be collectable sells for 60-70% of the new price. With the pandemic buying spree on guitars, add 5% to that range currently (65%-75%). Custom/boutique builders with year long wait times might hit a higher percentage because people don't want to wait a year, but guitars of comparable cost from Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Schecter, ESP, Jackson, etc all have similar resale to Kiesel at this point.
> 
> And don't confuse companies raising their prices with good resale. A ten year old Ibanez Prestige that costs twice as much now isn't a valid comparison (because you can't buy a brand new 10 year old guitar for the original price). Compare what you'd pay for a brand new guitar from any of those brands with what you could sell it for 6 months later. Otherwise you're just betting on which companies will raise their prices more over the next decade, which I'd actually bet Kiesel is more likely to do (and has more room to do).
> 
> The knock on Carvin was that resale was closer to 50%, sometimes less. 70% is totally fine.



nah kiesel is just the flavor of the week. They hardly have the presThey aren’t great guitars & their QC and customer service is crap.


Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Not sure I get what you say about Carvin, at least from my personal experience (see my avatar). My Carvin DC700 is easily one of the best guitars I ever played. Having said that, I never felt confident enough to buy a Kiesel, and it's not like for lack of temptation. I wish them well, but this latest issue is horrid imho, feels like someone missed their 101 guitar luthier class .
> 
> Re resale value, for me it is a non-issue if I am keeping the guitar, so it's not a factor.



Well I feel like resale matters to most people but at least it matters to me. I can’t spend 2000.00+ on a guitar that won’t pull half that down the road. Say what you will about your Carvin. I’m sure it’s great. But Carvins are junked across Craigslist for a few hundred dollars each. I can’t get down with that. Either way, Kiesel is known crap and people are still collecting them. I’ve heard about Kiesel guitars being terrible instruments way too many times to not believe that there’s def something to that. They’ve been flavor of the week for a couple years. I don’t get it. Jeff Kiesel is such a clown I figured people would have hopped the boat by now.


----------



## ibenhad

Have 4 Carvins and they are all excellent. My buddy just bought a Kiesel and it is excellent also. I think the hate for the product is based off the hate of the Man, JK. Sad because the guitars can be quite nice. Just my 2c.


----------



## mbardu

Trinity Prescott said:


> nah kiesel is just the flavor of the week. They hardly have the presThey aren’t great guitars & their QC and customer service is crap.
> 
> Well I feel like resale matters to most people but at least it matters to me. I can’t spend 2000.00+ on a guitar that won’t pull half that down the road. Say what you will about your Carvin. I’m sure it’s great. But Carvins are junked across Craigslist for a few hundred dollars each. I can’t get down with that. Either way, Kiesel is known crap and people are still collecting them. I’ve heard about Kiesel guitars being terrible instruments way too many times to not believe that there’s def something to that. They’ve been flavor of the week for a couple years. I don’t get it. Jeff Kiesel is such a clown I figured people would have hopped the boat by now.



Geez, it's OK you can calm down now, you're safe here 
Not sure what Jeff K has personally done to you but it seems like it hurt

Carvin or Kiesel is hardly the "flavor of the week", being that they have been in the same consistent made-to-order business for now pretty much decades.
And unlike their mindboggling PR issues, their quality is on the whole pretty unchallenged. Exceptions are few and far between, pretty much every one will be highlighted here. Pretty harmless, at least until that headless stuff...on that I'm sure interested in the outcome.
Maybe they're not for you (it sounds like you won't ever know since you won't try, and that's OK), but saying they're known crap is pretty uninformed.

Also, if you have some of those Carvins for only a few hundred bucks or Kiesels for less than half their new price, I'll gladly take a look. I've seen a handful of "cheap" Carvins last year, in so-so condition, and which were probably not much more expensive in the 90s when they were originally bought.. but those were rare exceptions. And the Kiesel stuff actually keeps its value extremely well nowadays. If you were to be able to get a 2k+ Kiesel (meaning a fully speced out one already) for less than half that, that would honestly take the crown for best value second-hand guitar- just like a base Delos/Aries can easily claim that crown for best value _new _guitar around 1.2k. That's really their sweet spot.

If you want to talk about losing a lot on custom orders, take a look all the way from Schecter USA to PRS PS (or don't because you'll _cry_), but there are very few builders I know of (except Aristides, and maybe TA) who fare any better than Kiesel.



ibenhad said:


> Have 4 Carvins and they are all excellent. My buddy just bought a Kiesel and it is excellent also. I think the hate for the product is based off the hate of the Man, JK. Sad because the guitars can be quite nice. Just my 2c.



Pretty much. They goof so much on social media and they've had a few very bad and very public CS stories so people with no nuance feel obliged to conflate that into "all the guitars are poop" for no reason other than feeding into the circlejerk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## bigcupholder

I'll just point out that posters being irrationally negative and saying things like "the guitars are known to be crap" are even worse than the fanboys on Facebook that gush over every Kiesel post. They're just as delusional, but at least the fanboys are having a good time.

I'm not trying to crap on this thread because there's some good discussion, but some of it is ridiculous (blanket statements about poor quality, saying 70% resale is bad, "flavor of the week" for the past decade, etc).


----------



## mbardu

bigcupholder said:


> I'll just point out that posters being irrationally negative and saying things like "the guitars are known to be crap" are even worse than the fanboys on Facebook that gush over every Kiesel post. They're just as delusional, but at least the fanboys are having a good time.
> 
> I'm not trying to crap on this thread because there's some good discussion, but some of it is ridiculous (blanket statements about poor quality, saying 70% resale is bad, "flavor of the week" for the past decade, etc).



Careful now with those reasonable takes. That's the kind of language that will soon have you labeled a fanboi or paid shill 'round these parts.


----------



## RevelGTR

Yeah there’s no need to needlessly shit on the guitars, the are definitely nice instruments. Although the issues with the headless models is definitely concerning, I’m still very close to ordering a JB5 and I’m sure it would be a wonderful instrument.

As someone who owns their own business and and takes care of customer service etc, I always try to leave the property manager/account with a positive feeling, even if I have to deny a request etc. Jeff somehow manages to leave people with a negative feeling even when he says yes.

To be clear, I think has big personality has many benefits for the company, and I’d also wager that many of the Kiesel fanboys are so dedicated because they don’t want to displease papa Jeff. It is disconcerting that his response to most questions in their Q&A’s involve lying, shitting on other companies etc, someone mentioned above that he seems extremely insecure and I definitely agree.


----------



## bostjan

Hot take: Kiesel makes fine guitars most of the time. But when they don't, it's horrific, and- it's the customer's fault.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

mbardu said:


> _[Citation needed]_
> 
> Not disagreeing on how they should improve on CS and attitude. Especially on making any of that public with that bravado attitude....I mean just...why?. At least it's been kind of quiet since Jeff "_apologized_" so that's not going in a _worse _direction at that point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?
> 
> But speaking in terms of pure outcome for the large majority of customers though? Well there are plenty of companies which, maybe will not make a mess on social media, but which will definitely _*not *_own up to it, and not offer you _any _resolution in the way of a rebuild/refund/repair. And not even small names, but that includes seriously big players. There, even though they're not the leader of the pack, at least Kiesel is still average or even a good bit above depending on what you value.



Perhaps I should have been more clear with my words. Every time I've personally dealt with other companies, I never felt the need to just settle for the issues. I've dealt with tons of companies and flawed product. Gibson, Rondo/Kurt, Epiphone, Fender, and even stores like GC, Musician's Friend, Sweetwater, and countless random mom and pop shops on reverb/ebay have always been pretty easy to deal with. My flaws were minimal with Kiesel, but I felt discouraged to complain because I might get publicly berated. Of course, you'd also be correct in pointing out that this is anecdotal evidence so just because I've been lucky doesn't mean EVERYONE is.

It's been talked to death about here, but Jeff is legit the only reason I dislike the company simply because he's been a complete childish anti-consumer turd on many occasions. Thankfully you're right in saying that it seems to have been a good while since he threw acted up, but... I just can't get the image of him flexing while saying "we're being _*men*_" out of my head. Perhaps it's silly of me, but I REALLY just don't feel comfortable knowingly putting money in someone like that's pockets.

It kills me because I've said it many times before and I'll probably say it many more times, my V7 was the best guitar I've ever owned and I had to sell it. So my choices are either give man-baby some money for a new one, risking public ridicule if it's janky, or just not having my favorite guitar again. I'd get used, but very few people run cheap builds that sell them. (though I'd surely settle for that $1200 one up on reverb even though I hate KRG inlays if I had the money right now.) Maybe some day I'll have that guitar back.


----------



## chipchappy

bigcupholder said:


> but at least the fanboys are having a good time..



That's true, ignorance is bliss


----------



## Jonathan20022

No one even said the majority/average Kiesel is a *bad* instrument 

mbardu just being dramatic as usual and pretending that this thread is full of irrational people with raging Kiesel hate boners, all while tossing plausible deniability at every other business level qualm people have with the company.

"Kiesels are great! So long as you stick to the base specs so they compete with instruments nearing the 1k bracket! Option 50 is a trash, so avoid those to retain your return policy and basic consumer rights! You can't find a better value elsewhere, so just going to keep ordering Kiesels!"

For a brand that tries to remind and exist in tandem with the "Custom Shop" tagline, they sure do give you a multitude of reasons why not to make a truly custom instrument . And it's unfortunate cause I see people wrestle with the discussion about resale value, but you can't ever truly order the instrument in good conscious to your exact desires because you might be burned at the point of sale, or at the point in time when you want to resell it.


----------



## Dayn

If many of their practices would repeatedly contravene my own country's consumer protection laws, I'd avoid it like the plague.

But as 2020 has shown us, that aphorism now means some people will willingly buy in to it.


----------



## mbardu

Dayn said:


> If many of their practices would repeatedly contravene my own country's consumer protection laws, I'd avoid it like the plague.
> 
> But as 2020 has shown us, that aphorism now means some people will willingly buy in to it.



Luckily, that doesn't really happen.
They don't mind disregarding some laws or rules (the egregious Disney IP stuff for example), true.
But if you're thinking in terms of consumer protection laws, I'm not sure what law they go against. 

Is it that it would be somehow illegal for them to not refund something advertised as non refundable? Because if so, then I guess all small builders who take non refundable deposits are illegal? All large custom shops too since nobody else will take back a customized guitar? Outside of music, all commissioned or contract work is illegal because you cannot change your mind for a refund?


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Luckily, that doesn't really happen.
> They don't mind disregarding some laws or rules (the egregious Disney IP stuff for example), true.
> But if you're thinking in terms of consumer protection laws, I'm not sure what law they go against.
> 
> Is it that it would be somehow illegal for them to not refund something advertised as non refundable? Because if so, then I guess all small builders who take non refundable deposits are illegal? All large custom shops too since nobody else will take back a customized guitar? Outside of music, all commissioned or contract work is illegal because you cannot change your mind for a refund?



People seeking refunds just had byers remorse bro, totally 

"Your Vader headstock split, but you asked to move that tone knob so nothing I can do, sorry bro."


----------



## mbardu

Señor Voorhees said:


> Perhaps I should have been more clear with my words. Every time I've personally dealt with other companies, I never felt the need to just settle for the issues. I've dealt with tons of companies and flawed product. Gibson, Rondo/Kurt, Epiphone, Fender, and even stores like GC, Musician's Friend, Sweetwater, and countless random mom and pop shops on reverb/ebay have always been pretty easy to deal with. My flaws were minimal with Kiesel, but I felt discouraged to complain because I might get publicly berated. Of course, you'd also be correct in pointing out that this is anecdotal evidence so just because I've been lucky doesn't mean EVERYONE is.
> 
> It's been talked to death about here, but Jeff is legit the only reason I dislike the company simply because he's been a complete childish anti-consumer turd on many occasions. Thankfully you're right in saying that it seems to have been a good while since he threw acted up, but... I just can't get the image of him flexing while saying "we're being _*men*_" out of my head. Perhaps it's silly of me, but I REALLY just don't feel comfortable knowingly putting money in someone like that's pockets.
> 
> It kills me because I've said it many times before and I'll probably say it many more times, my V7 was the best guitar I've ever owned and I had to sell it. So my choices are either give man-baby some money for a new one, risking public ridicule if it's janky, or just not having my favorite guitar again. I'd get used, but very few people run cheap builds that sell them. (though I'd surely settle for that $1200 one up on reverb even though I hate KRG inlays if I had the money right now.) Maybe some day I'll have that guitar back.



I agree with most of you points there.

Maybe on things like "risking ridicule" or "discouraged to complain", it seems a bit out of proportion because you really have to go out of your way to even get to the point of interacting with Jeff (and most people I know have had good experience complaining and getting resolutions with Carvin and Kiesel). Unless you have experienced that type of interaction with them personally already of course.

Luckily for you, I'd bet there will be lots of second hand instruments of all brands on the market next year, and I bet lots of Kiesels to choose from as well if you want to look into used. Not _only _Kiesels, but there's not a ton of alternatives to a v7 andf I agree they're pretty good- so hopefully you find what you're after.


----------



## Dayn

mbardu said:


> Luckily, that doesn't really happen.
> They don't mind disregarding some laws or rules (the egregious Disney IP stuff for example), true.
> But if you're thinking in terms of consumer protection laws, I'm not sure what law they go against.
> 
> Is it that it would be somehow illegal for them to not refund something advertised as non refundable? Because if so, then I guess all small builders who take non refundable deposits are illegal? All large custom shops too since nobody else will take back a customized guitar? Outside of music, all commissioned or contract work is illegal because you cannot change your mind for a refund?


Were they Australian:

Raising the price then offering it on 'sale' for the normal price is misleading conduct;
Using the 'Option 50' clause to deny attempted returns based on defects is a failure to abide by basic consumer guarantees; and
Not adequately disclosing if a specific request is 'Option 50' which would otherwise void an apparently applicable warranty is also misleading.
At least for the second and third parts, that's what I gathered was happening based on reading this thread. It's perfectly fine to offer change-of-mind refunds, and have an exception if it was a specific custom order, because changing one's mind is not a valid reason here to request a refund. However if something is not as ordered and is not of acceptable quality, a replacement or a refund must be given.

As much as many American brands seem to offer interesting things, if they do the above because it's technically legal there, I'd want nothing to do with it. You can say it's perfectly legal where you live, but, well, as a society over here we've deemed such scummy bullshit to be illegal and predatory. It's the scummy bullshit that's the problem, not whether it's legal or not.


----------



## mbardu

Dayn said:


> Were they Australian:
> 
> Raising the price then offering it on 'sale' for the normal price is misleading conduct;
> Using the 'Option 50' clause to deny attempted returns based on defects is a failure to abide by basic consumer guarantees; and
> Not adequately disclosing if a specific request is 'Option 50' which would otherwise void an apparently applicable warranty is also misleading.
> At least for the second and third parts, that's what I gathered was happening based on reading this thread. It's perfectly fine to offer change-of-mind refunds, and have an exception if it was a specific custom order, because changing one's mind is not a valid reason here to request a refund. However if something is not as ordered and is not of acceptable quality, a replacement or a refund must be given.
> 
> As much as many American brands seem to offer interesting things, if they do the above because it's technically legal there, I'd want nothing to do with it. You can say it's perfectly legal where you live, but, well, as a society over here we've deemed such scummy bullshit to be illegal and predatory. It's the scummy bullshit that's the problem, not whether it's legal or not.



They will disclose more than once if anything does void the return period. Before they charge you anything or get anything started, you'll also have to re-read the preliminary invoice that they'll send you- that invoice also will include a large mention in all-caps stating "no 10-day trial on this instrument" if anything makes it non-returnable.

If you still order, and there's a defect on the instrument, they will fix it. If you order something custom, and they get a detail wrong in the instrument, they will accept a return. An instrument without 10-day trial is still also 100% covered by the same warranty. So for example, even if you have 10 non returnable options on your headless guitar, and the neck cracks like in the previous pages, they will fix it.

People like to pretend the opposite, just like people like to pretend that the instruments are crap, because it's fun to jump on the hate bandwagon; but that's just not the case.
And it doesn't diminish any of the very legit concerns just to be clear. But nuance is just hard apparently.

For instance, that addresses two of your 3 points, but you're totally correct on point 1.
No need to even look at Australia, artificially inflating a price before a sale is against trade regulation and is technically forbidden (even though not enforced) even in California. And no need to even ask whether it's legal or not...regardless of legality it's just shitty as a business practice.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Okay.

I have had about 9-10 kiesels over the years. 
The quality is always decent for the money given you don’t go overboard with options.

That being said. Ever since I made the switch to Aristides I’m fully in love and will never go back.


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## mbardu

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Okay.
> 
> I have had about 9-10 kiesels over the years.
> The quality is always decent for the money given you don’t go overboard with options.
> 
> That being said. Ever since I made the switch to Aristides I’m fully in love and will never go back.



Oh yeah for sure. If Aristides is your jam, then there's pretty much nothing that compares.


----------



## bigcupholder

Jonathan20022 said:


> People seeking refunds just had byers remorse bro, totally
> 
> "Your Vader headstock split, but you asked to move that tone knob so nothing I can do, sorry bro."


Non-returnable guitars still have warranties. 

I imagine the neck split issue is quietly being taken care of. Otherwise we would have heard complaints about it, right? People are usually pretty vocal on the internet when they get screwed over (and I agree anything less than rebuilding the guitar in those cases would be screwing people over). I don't know if we'll hear any confirmation though because they may want to keep it quiet.

The returnable/non-returnable issue is a double-edged sword. They have a better return policy than any custom builder I know of and that's a good business strategy when people can't try the guitars in stores. But if they severely limited options to the point where they couldn't be stuck with a return that'd be tough to sell, people would complain that they're not offering enough options. Offering less popular options but making them non-returnable is a reasonable compromise IMO. They also encourage you to stick with returnable options if it's your first order (which was my experience recently).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The issue (and genesis of this very thread and others on this forum and elsewhere) is that folks have received flawed instruments, either genuine build defects or incorrect specs not reflected on invoice, and were met with significant pushback, up to and including being ignored and ridiculed in public, when trying to get the problem sorted, regardless of established and often vaunted warranty.

It's hard to say whether things have gotten better, as while we haven't seen a thread like this pop up recently, Kiesel has also wrangled to make this kind of stuff both easier to scrub from the internet (moving away from forums not entirely under thier control) and threatening customers to ensure fewer negative posts in general. Both cases have been documented.

So I wouldn't immediately assume anything has been rectified just quite yet, unless of course we start seeing rebuilds or an explanation.

Really it's all a shame, as I was quite fond of thier guitars. I bought my first Carvin back around 2000, and have owned numerous (new and used). But, having dealt with some of the bullshit, namely Jeff thinking he owns this forum, I'm not as enthused with the brand. I still recommend them to many folks, and think, as a whole they're making better and more compelling instruments than ever before. Again, it's a shame they had to cash in the goodwill over what was probably less than $10k in finished goods. C'est la vie.


----------



## Jonathan20022

^^^ Heart of the issue, and with Jeff's standards of customer service, keeping interactions in his group can minimize visibility on fuck ups like these. As a consumer, being alerted to and made aware of issues and how they've resolved them in the past is always helpful, whether a company with problems managed to turn it around, or if they never did. 

People pretending that anyone is dogging their legitimately well made instruments is just being ignorant, especially considering they've taken part in the Kiesel discussions for a supremely long time and are fully aware of their setbacks.

I will never shit on their guitars, because I loved mine. They built me 5 guitars that were killer, and the 6th was the reason I stopped buying them. If they were consistent by any measure of the word, and handled mishaps elegantly I would have zero qualms recommending them to people.

But the fact of the matter is this, guitars are better than they have ever been across the board. Kiesel is no longer your only option for a fantastic instrument in the lower 1k bracket, unless you absolutely have to have some reassurance that it was made in this country. And on the opposite end (high end), any of the other manufacturers can build you a fantastic guitar, and in a lot of cases a better one.


----------



## spudmunkey

Someone on their own forum had an issue where they built a DC127 with the wrong headstock.

They sucked it up and rebuilt it.

When he received that one, it again had the wrong headstock and/or neck finish. Kiesel re-built it yet again.

And it arrived with the wrong headstock (the same wrong one as the first time). At this point, the customer spoke with Jeff directly (instead of just to CS rep Joe, who went to Jeff previously), who let the customer keep this one while they rebuilt it again.

Four-times-a-charm, apparently. They got it right, and customer is very happy with the guitar that arrived in October from a guitar originally ordered in February.

Take all of that for what you will.

From my own perspective, I haven't come across any horror stories anywhere since "the incident".


----------



## FTB

spudmunkey said:


> Someone on their own forum...



That's just astounding. It's genuinely impressive how bad that is.


----------



## StevenC

mbardu said:


> Luckily, that doesn't really happen.
> They don't mind disregarding some laws or rules (the egregious Disney IP stuff for example), true.
> But if you're thinking in terms of consumer protection laws, I'm not sure what law they go against.
> 
> Is it that it would be somehow illegal for them to not refund something advertised as non refundable? Because if so, then I guess all small builders who take non refundable deposits are illegal? All large custom shops too since nobody else will take back a customized guitar? Outside of music, all commissioned or contract work is illegal because you cannot change your mind for a refund?


Jackson, for all their inconsistency, will take back a guitar if they didn't get it right. If you ask for a specific look and they don't deliver it, they will offer a rebuild or refund.

You keep making up this scenario that people are changing their mind on specs, when in reality Kiesel are agreeing to things and then not doing them. Like roasted maple boards, or agreeing to a custom finish and messing it up.

Regardless of "voided warranties" these are breaches of contract on Kiesels's part. If they won't stand by the product or ability to recreate something, they shouldn't agree to build it.

Finally, in a lot of the world "warranty void if" clauses and stickers have no standing, because they're unfair to consumers.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I think that's where a lot of the friction in here is coming from. Since this is an international forum, folks from Europe or Australia are used to far more broad and consumer-focused laws and protections compared to the US, which is pretty much the Wild West in comparison.

Kiesel stalwarts like the 10-day trial and defect warranties are a given in Europe, and something like an "option 50" or "non-returnable/refundable" would be illegal. 

Interestingly enough, that's why Carvin went with a distributor/dealer model globally, they needed a intermediary to handle this stuff as they'd be directly on the hook if using the same system as the US. I have a feeling that's why they still haven't hit certain global markets in earnest.


----------



## CerealKiller

AFAIK there is no requirement by law in the EU for 'custom made' orders to be returnable, which Kiesel would fall under - for anything else bought online, 14 days is the law. Defect warranty for sure though, 2 years I think. At least in Denmark.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think that's where a lot of the friction in here is coming from. Since this is an international forum, folks from Europe or Australia are used to far more broad and consumer-focused laws and protections compared to the US, which is pretty much the Wild West in comparison.
> 
> Kiesel stalwarts like the 10-day trial and defect warranties are a given in Europe, and something like an "option 50" or "non-returnable/refundable" would be illegal.
> 
> Interestingly enough, that's why Carvin went with a distributor/dealer model globally, they needed a intermediary to handle this stuff as they'd be directly on the hook if using the same system as the US. I have a feeling that's why they still haven't hit certain global markets in earnest.



This was also my suspicion. They could be cleaning up if they made a kiesel Europe, except I'm sure that they would see consumer protections as eating too much of their bottom dollar.


----------



## mbardu

StevenC said:


> Jackson, for all their inconsistency, will take back a guitar if they didn't get it right. If you ask for a specific look and they don't deliver it, they will offer a rebuild or refund.
> 
> You keep making up this scenario that people are changing their mind on specs, when in reality Kiesel are agreeing to things and then not doing them. Like roasted maple boards, or agreeing to a custom finish and messing it up.
> 
> Regardless of "voided warranties" these are breaches of contract on Kiesels's part. If they won't stand by the product or ability to recreate something, they shouldn't agree to build it.
> 
> Finally, in a lot of the world "warranty void if" clauses and stickers have no standing, because they're unfair to consumers.



Jackson _may say _that they will take a guitar back if you're lucky and work through a great distributor with a lot of pull.
But they may also tell you to just suck it. Anecdotally, they were already banning customers for raising issues ("we won't ever do business with you again because you badmouthed our guitar") years ago - but since they're not JK, nobody has a problem with that. And the famous 23-fret Kelly they created and we all know the story of? The buyer was still waiting for a rebuild 2 years later IIRC - after being promised 3 months, then 4 months, then 6 months.... and then we just stopped hearing about it altogether. Talk about great service. So yeah...they may (empty) promise a bunch _if you're lucky_. But let's really not pretend they're the example here...

As for Kiesel "voiding warranties", we can stop that right there because that has never happened. That's just not a thing with Carvin or Kiesel. Not happened. That's fiction. They'll always cover all guitars under warranty, and pretending otherwise is just not true- you won't find an example. Even on option 50 stuff- the two are not related in the slightest. There are no voided warranties. Voiding warranties is _as true_ as when some people jumped in to say that Kiesel was crap because they were secretly made in China now. Just pumped up nonsense to hate on the brand. 
Which is weird, because there is already enough real nonsense to hate on them without having to make up new claims just because


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think that's where a lot of the friction in here is coming from. Since this is an international forum, folks from Europe or Australia are used to far more broad and consumer-focused laws and protections compared to the US, which is pretty much the Wild West in comparison.
> 
> Kiesel stalwarts like the 10-day trial and defect warranties are a given in Europe, and something like an "option 50" or "non-returnable/refundable" would be illegal.
> 
> Interestingly enough, that's why Carvin went with a distributor/dealer model globally, they needed a intermediary to handle this stuff as they'd be directly on the hook if using the same system as the US. I have a feeling that's why they still haven't hit certain global markets in earnest.





CerealKiller said:


> AFAIK there is no requirement by law in the EU for 'custom made' orders to be returnable, which Kiesel would fall under - for anything else bought online, 14 days is the law. Defect warranty for sure though, 2 years I think. At least in Denmark.



There is no requirement in the EU or _anywhere _for anything custom made to be returnable. By the way, having lived in the EU most of my life, I agree that their consumer protection laws (and standards in general) are better than say in the US. But specifically returning things on a whim (even on standard store-bought stuff) is rare and frowned upon in general. That's really more of an American debate.

Regardless, I don't understand why we would hold Kiesel to an impossible standard, while literally no other builder has to. Can you return any custom order for any other builder for a refund if you don't like it? Any guitar from Suhr to Carillion and from PRS PS to Vandermeij? From Jackson CS to Daemoness? No. You pay a non-refundable deposit first, and then when you pay the balance, it's non refundable too. Kiesel is the only one that even offers the possibility of return on 90% of the instruments they ship (which nobody else does) and we piss on them...because it's not 100%?

Anything functional or warranty related? Yes for sure you're covered in the EU, and guess what- Kiesel does that. Even better than a lot of brands, since they always warranty for 5 years, and have been shown to ship both ways from/to Europe at their expense for warranty or defect fixes. Look at something popular like Ibanez in Europe, _they _are borderline illegal because you have to send in a warranty card (that your dealer may not even give you) immediately at purchase time to even enable a 1-year warranty, and then battle between Ibanez and the dealer if you want anything addressed.

But we _have _to make up fake stories that it's Kiesel that voids warranties now?


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Really it's all a shame, as I was quite fond of thier guitars. I bought my first Carvin back around 2000, and have owned numerous (new and used). But, having dealt with some of the bullshit, namely Jeff thinking he owns this forum, I'm not as enthused with the brand. I still recommend them to many folks, and think, as a whole they're making better and more compelling instruments than ever before. Again, it's a shame they had to cash in the goodwill over what was probably less than $10k in finished goods. C'est la vie.



That too is mindboggling to me. It was always tiny in terms of relative $$$ and yet some of those customer decisions were made in what looked like.....just out of spite?
Really the biggest departure from Carvin.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Jackson _may say _that they will take a guitar back if you're lucky and work through a great distributor with a lot of pull.



That's something of a misunderstanding of how it works. 

When you order a CS Jackson (and really just about all guitars sold through a dealer network) the shop itself is Jackson's customer. 

So if there are problems, it's the dealer's obligation to work through them. That's why selecting a dealer that has experience is so important. Sure, buying from Bill's Discount Guitars might shave a couple hundred dollars off the MAP because they really want that sale, but chances are they don't have the knowledge base or volume to rectify any issues. 

If a shop isn't letting you return a Jackson that's not what you ordered, or has a defect, it's because that shop doesn't want to float your order until a resolution is made. Either because they don't care to, or can't afford it. 



> They'll always cover all guitars under warranty



They'll definitely never screw someone, and I don't recall anyone being out money...but they'll certain make it difficult sometimes, even for defects in the instrument. 

If they were crooks I would never recommend them, but I still do because 99% of time the outcome is positive and that lonely 1% is more or less really really inconvenient.


----------



## mbardu

FTB said:


> That's just astounding. It's genuinely impressive how bad that is.



Looks like there's a particular headstock shape that you _do not_ want to order because they can't build it 

Reminds me of the 2-3 months a few years back when they had a series of guitars supposed to be finished in aqua no-burst, that were built in aquaburst instead. Sometimes they have serious brain farts. 

But case in point, they fixed it for that client above (certainly took a while  ). And in that wave of aquaburst vs aqua no-burst finish a few years back, I actually had ordered an option-50 guitar, and they _still _took it back (regardless of option 50) because _they _made an error in the finish. They did not tell me to keep the guitar, like some would pretend here... They did not pressure me. They took the guitar back, no questions asked. Go figure.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's something of a misunderstanding of how it works.
> 
> When you order a CS Jackson (and really just about all guitars sold through a dealer network) the shop itself is Jackson's customer.
> 
> So if there are problems, it's the dealer's obligation to work through them. That's why selecting a dealer that has experience is so important. Sure, buying from Bill's Discount Guitars might shave a couple hundred dollars off the MAP because they really want that sale, but chances are they don't have the knowledge base or volume to rectify any issues.
> 
> If a shop isn't letting you return a Jackson that's not what you ordered, or has a defect, it's because that shop doesn't want to float your order until a resolution is made. Either because they don't care to, or can't afford it.



I understand that, because I've done it in the past. From what I've seen, certain dealers do have a more..."privileged" relationship with Jackson/FIMC (what I mean by pull), like you mention, because of history or sheer volumes. Which means that it's easier for them to have Jackson resolve issues at the source vs, say sell your order to someone else while waiting for a rebuild if you didn't like how it looked. Exactly my point.



MaxOfMetal said:


> They'll definitely never screw someone, and I don't recall anyone being out money...but they'll certain make it difficult sometimes, even for defects in the instrument.
> 
> If they were crooks I would never recommend them, but I still do because 99% of time the outcome is positive and that lonely 1% is more or less really really inconvenient.



At least we agree on most things here (I've never had a difficult interaction with them, but some people certainly have), and that's a balanced view- unlike a lot of others above.

To be honest _even I _don't even recommend them 99% of the time. Sometimes you're better served by a good SK guitar for less $$$ or by a true custom that won't have their limitations. Or you just don't want to support JK financially. But there are things on which they're hard to beat. And that "hard to beat" includes _thanks to the ability to return easily_ and _thanks to their warranty peace of mind_. Things that apparently don't exist anymore and we're now in opposite world just because JK had a breakdown on FB live, if you read some of those answers...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> I understand that, because I've done it in the past. From what I've seen, certain dealers do have a more..."privileged" relationship with Jackson/FIMC (what I mean by pull), like you mention, because of history or sheer volumes. Which means that it's easier for them to have Jackson resolve issues at the source vs, say sell your order to someone else while waiting for a rebuild if you didn't like how it looked. Exactly my point.
> 
> 
> 
> At least we agree on most things here (I've never had a difficult interaction with them, but some peiopel certainly have), and that's a balanced view- unlike a lot of others above.
> 
> To be honest _even I _don't even recommend them 99% of the time. Sometimes you're better served by a good SK guitar for less $$$ or by a true custom that won't have their limitations. But there are just things on which they're hard to beat. And that "hard to beat" includes _thanks to the ability to return easily_ and _thanks to their warranty peace of mind_. Things that apparently don't exist anymore and we're now in opposite world just because JK had a breakdown on FB live, if you read some of those answers...



The only stuff Jackson, and this goes for FMIC as a whole, wouldn't take back were dealer fuck ups and certain graphics. Like if a dealer put (or approved) the wrong color code on the invoice, that's on them. 

The bigger shops go ahead and buy various build spots in advance, to either have for their own inventory or to offer to customers. So larger shops can get rebuilds turned around faster by using up spots that are closer to hitting the final invoice date. 

The rebuild time has generally always been roughly have of a new order delivery window. For the last couple years they've been running at about 18 months, so if the dealer doesn't have another spot, you're looking at at least 9 months for a rebuild right now. Tack on a few more months if you want inlay or graphics work. 

As for poor interactions, I always got the impression that it wasn't due to malice but disorganization. I had to deal with Carvin three times and while all issues were settled in the end, it was often frustrating and just never left me feeling "taken care of" like you'd expect after spending several grand. That was quite some time ago, but I don't get the impression that things would be much better now.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> The only stuff Jackson, and this goes for FMIC as a whole, wouldn't take back were dealer fuck ups and certain graphics. Like if a dealer put (or approved) the wrong color code on the invoice, that's on them.



Is that really the only stuff? When I was shopping around, my main concern was what exactly the builder would be able to rectify or not. Coming from a past custom build where I got a good guitar, but with a slight, but noticeable dead spot in the upper register, that's one example I asked specifically about. And the answer I got was that it was squarely in the category of "that's the kind of thing that's not taken back just because you subjectively feel it doesn't sound like you hoped". And that was from one of the good Jackson dealers, at least as far as I'm aware.

If I order a Kiesel and it has a dead spot somewhere, or doesn't sound good for whatever reason, I can send it back without having to negotiate with a dealer. And without having to even provide a reason for that matter. That's unique and I don't understand why people try to paint that as a _negative_ just because a few people _decide to waive that possibility_ in getting something more customized than the literal millions of non option 50 combinations.



MaxOfMetal said:


> As for poor interactions, I always got the impression that it wasn't due to malice but disorganization. I had to deal with Carvin three times and while all issues were settled in the end, it was often frustrating and just never left me feeling "taken care of" like you'd expect after spending several grand. That was quite some time ago, but I don't get the impression that things would be much better now.



Yeah, no, that part is still about the same  . You kinda have to call a couple of times if you want to make sure things move along quickly, otherwise it's easy for things like email requests to stay in limbo for a bit with no movement. But not being the best, they're still far from being the worst in my experience.
To take the Jackson example again, the fact it goes through dealer and Jackson, sometimes requiring weeks to get an answer, and then the all too common _promises _of a 6 months rebuild that still don't materialize a year later... I don't think that's a better experience.

I just don't understand why we keep trying to use Jackson as the example of great customer care in a custom shop though. Like, I would understand Aristides or Suhr or a bunch of others. But _Jackson_?!?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Is that really the only stuff? When I was shopping around, my main concern was what exactly the builder would be able to rectify or not. Coming from a past custom build where I got a good guitar, but with a slight, but noticeable dead spot in the upper register, that's one example I asked specifically about. And the answer I got was that it was squarely in the category of "that's the kind of thing that's not taken back just because you subjectively feel it doesn't sound like you hoped". And that was from one of the good Jackson dealers, at least as far as I'm aware.



They don't have an official list of reasons, but in my experience, they'll take back almost anything for almost any reason that's not explicitly related to the dealer or dealer's customer messing something up. 

Unless you order something really weird, there are usually dozens of folks willing to buy the guitar off of Jackson, so as long as the dealer is willing to help make it happen, Jackson will process it. 

Again, the dealer holds the key most of the time.


----------



## I play music

mbardu said:


> Is that really the only stuff? When I was shopping around, my main concern was what exactly the builder would be able to rectify or not. Coming from a past custom build where I got a good guitar, but with a slight, but noticeable dead spot in the upper register, that's one example I asked specifically about. And the answer I got was that it was squarely in the category of "that's the kind of thing that's not taken back just because you subjectively feel it doesn't sound like you hoped". And that was from one of the good Jackson dealers, at least as far as I'm aware.
> 
> If I order a Kiesel and it has a dead spot somewhere, or doesn't sound good for whatever reason, I can send it back without having to negotiate with a dealer. And without having to even provide a reason for that matter. That's unique and I don't understand why people try to paint that as a _negative_ just because a few people _decide to waive that possibility_ in getting something more customized than the literal millions of non option 50 combinations.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, no, that part is still about the same  . You kinda have to call a couple of times if you want to make sure things move along quickly, otherwise it's easy for things like email requests to stay in limbo for a bit with no movement. But not being the best, they're still far from being the worst in my experience.
> To take the Jackson example again, the fact it goes through dealer and Jackson, sometimes requiring weeks to get an answer, and then the all too common _promises _of a 6 months rebuild that still don't materialize a year later... I don't think that's a better experience.
> 
> I just don't understand why we keep trying to use Jackson as the example of great customer care in a custom shop though. Like, I would understand Aristides or Suhr or a bunch of others. But _Jackson_?!?


Your whole argument is flawed. If JK does something wrong, some one else maybe or maybe not doing something similar does not make it any better.


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> Your whole argument is flawed. If JK does something wrong, some one else maybe or maybe not doing something similar does not make it any better.



And your reading comprehension is flawed because I didn't write anything close to the vague strawman that you are trying to build. But building strawmen is easier than replying on anything specific and factual, as usual.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Again, the dealer holds the key most of the time.



So if it's in the dealers hand, do you have names in mind of actual dealers who will entertain taking in a return for a refund if the client receives a guitar that doesn't sound good or has a slight dead spot somewhere? Otherwise the point is a bit moot, isn't it? I'm not aware of anyone who will do that on the guitar $$$ balance, let alone on the initial deposit- but maybe I just don't know the right dealers.

Anyway, I don't care that much and didn't bring Jackson into the discussion (again, still not sure why they'd be the example of anything great in that department- and that ship has sailed for me on getting a _new _one from them, especially with the newest price increase so whatever). But people like StevenC keep bringing them up as if they would easily refund you a custom...and I don't think I've seen that happen even once. Even rebuilds are exercises in frustration usually.


----------



## Hollowway

I know Nick at the Axe Palace just recently sent back a Jackson CS because he didn’t feel the quilted top was figured enough. They built another one for him. So he’s a shop that has pull with Jackson, and knows how to deal with getting them to rebuild stuff.


----------



## I play music

mbardu said:


> And your reading comprehension is flawed because I didn't write anything close to the vague strawman that you are trying to build. But building strawmen is easier than replying on anything specific and factual, as usual.


Yeah I didn't read through all your walls of text, I mean it's a bit crazy, why are you so invested in defending Jeff Kiesel?

With the non-refundable thing. Something flawed (= not as ordered) should always be refundable. Non-refundable at least here in Europe means that if you get exactly what you ordered then you can't send it back and get a refund, last example I can think of were my custom-mold in-ears. But if it's not what you ordered, for example if they make it in the wrong color, then of course it has to be refunded! And that's what Kiesel seems to not understand from what I read here on this forum.


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> Yeah I didn't read through all your walls of text, I mean it's a bit crazy, why are you so invested in defending Jeff Kiesel?
> 
> With the non-refundable thing. Something flawed (= not as ordered) should always be refundable. Non-refundable at least here in Europe means that if you get exactly what you ordered then you can't send it back and get a refund, last example I can think of were my custom-mold in-ears. But if it's not what you ordered, for example if they make it in the wrong color, then of course it has to be refunded! And that's what Kiesel seems to not understand from what I read here on this forum.



I mean OK...you don't have to read through stuff, but if you don't, then it's a bit weird to jump in all and mighty trying to reply with authority, no?
But whatever, I'll humor you:

I'm not defending any of JK's hijinks. You're making this up, and I doubt you'd be able to find any example of that, even if you were to _actually _read through what I type. The only thing I'm doing is replying when people throw out some things that are just 100% false. As in "they're crap made in China" or "they will void your warranty" or "they will leave you hanging if they send you the wrong guitar with the wrong specs" which are all demonstrably false. Does it mean they're perfect and everything they do should be defended? God no, absolutely no. Does it mean Kiesel is the be-all end-all guitar for everyone? Clearly not. Does it mean any made up crap automatically becomes true just to hate? Not either. Why is nuance so hard?
Something not as ordered should be refundable => agreed 100%. And they do that, as I (and other posters) gave examples of just on the previous page. There's one _specifically _about the "wrong color" example by the way, so you _really _didn't even have to read that far if you were here in good faith. Your "t_hat's what Kiesel seems to not understand f*rom what I read here on this forum*_", just means that people like to make stuff up and dramatize on this forum- as it's easily disproven. But if you choose to believe that made up stuff, and if you think they're made-in-China crap with voided warranties that you'll get with wrong specs and no possibility of return...up to you!


----------



## spudmunkey

mbardu said:


> Looks like there's a particular headstock shape that you _do not_ want to order because they can't build it



The hilarious thing is: he WANTED the standard, "stock" no-charge headstock for the DC127, the "GT" headstock. The ones he kept getting were the pointy 3+3 which are actually up-charge headstocks that he wasn't charged for.


----------



## I play music

mbardu said:


> I mean OK...you don't have to read through stuff, but if you don't, then it's a bit weird to jump in all and mighty trying to reply with authority, no?
> But whatever, I'll humor you:
> 
> I'm not defending any of JK's hijinks. You're making this up, and I doubt you'd be able to find any example of that, even if you were to _actually _read through what I type. The only thing I'm doing is replying when people throw out some things that are just 100% false. As in "they're crap made in China" or "they will void your warranty" or "they will leave you hanging if they send you the wrong guitar with the wrong specs" which are all demonstrably false. Does it mean they're perfect and everything they do should be defended? God no, absolutely no. Does it mean Kiesel is the be-all end-all guitar for everyone? Clearly not. Does it mean any made up crap automatically becomes true just to hate? Not either. Why is nuance so hard?
> Something not as ordered should be refundable => agreed 100%. And they do that, as I (and other posters) gave examples of just on the previous page. There's one _specifically _about the "wrong color" example by the way, so you _really _didn't even have to read that far if you were here in good faith. Your "t_hat's what Kiesel seems to not understand f*rom what I read here on this forum*_", just means that people like to make stuff up and dramatize on this forum- as it's easily disproven. But if you choose to believe that made up stuff, and if you think they're made-in-China crap with voided warranties that you'll get with wrong specs and no possibility of return...up to you!


Maybe look at the begin of this thread. Not a dead spot but just as bad. 


mbardu said:


> If I order a Kiesel and it has a dead spot somewhere, or doesn't sound good for whatever reason, I can send it back without having to negotiate with a dealer. And without having to even provide a reason for that matter. That's unique and I don't understand why people try to paint that as a _negative_ just because a few people _decide to waive that possibility_ in getting something more customized than the literal millions of non option 50 combinations.


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> Maybe look at the begin of this thread. Not a dead spot but just as bad.



Good job not replying on any single point I made and now talking about a totally unrelated point (potential dead spots), but whatever...

Leaving aside the fact that the first post in this thread is actually something that every one agrees was bad customer service, told through the eyes of the person for whom it was the most frustrating...the end result is that OP did get a full refund. He could have got a full refund _right away_ by the way. He just chose to send it back for a fix and then support dropped the ball, and he ended up getting a refund anyway.

It was far from a pleasant experience I bet, and support experiences rarely are. A bunch of people could clearly have done a better job, sure. Should some employees have been more courteous? You bet. But OP tried the guitar to his specs, it didn't play well and was either defective or setup poorly, and he got his money back. Sure, he had to wait for a few days in each communication- but this was done in a few months from order to receipt to attempted fix to refund. This is basically nothing in the guitar world when some builders take years to get you a flawed guitar, then years to get a rebuild if you even have that option (don't even think about a refund because pretty much nobody offers that _at all_ except Kiesel), and you're lucky to get updates every few weeks if your dealer is in a good mood.
And even those "horror stories" are few and far between vs thousands upon thousands of happy customers, and everyone acts like it's guaranteed to happen to you whereas it's a rare exception.


----------



## I play music

mbardu said:


> This is basically nothing in the guitar world when some builders take years to get you a flawed guitar, then years to get a rebuild if you even have that option (don't even think about a refund because pretty much nobody offers that _at all_ except Kiesel), and you're lucky to get updates every few weeks if your dealer is in a good mood.





I play music said:


> If JK does something wrong, some one else maybe or maybe not doing something similar does not make it any better.





mbardu said:


> Good job not replying on any single point I made and now talking about a totally unrelated point (potential dead spots), but whatever...


You brought that example 


mbardu said:


> If I order a Kiesel and it has a dead spot somewhere


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> You brought that example



Indeed I did, but not to you- it was replying on a different topic to a different person (that's what "unrelated" means). Reading comprehension is indeed not your forte, or you're just being intentionally dishonest on purpose.

But at this point I'm yet to see a single good faith argument, or argument altogether from you for that matter, so I guess there's not a lot to add, especially if (from your own admission) you won't read anyway.


----------



## I play music

mbardu said:


> Yes I did, but not to you- it was replying on a different topic to a different person (that's what "unrelated" means). Reading comprehension is indeed not your forte, or you're just being intentionally dishonest on purpose.
> 
> At this point I'm yet to see a single argument from you so I guess there's not a lot to add, especially if you won't read anyway.


Nope, I won't add anything. Have a nice day


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> Nope, I won't add anything. Have a nice day


----------



## Jonathan20022

He keeps referencing these quotes like

"Made in China Crap" - I searched BOTH Kiesel threads in, and this never came up.
"They will void your warranty" - Has 100% happened, and if he really wants proof I will dig and find it.
"They will leave you hanging if they send you the wrong guitar, or mess up your specs" - This happened, to me. I will literally provide a screenshot to shut him up.

@mbardu argues in bad faith, and uses the fact that no one has the time and willpower to fact check his bullshit by reading almost 200 pages of discussion surrounding Jeff Kiesel and his shady practices.






Examples of my conversations with Jeff, none of them were aggro "Take it or leave it". I was never aggressive in my interactions with him nor Chris Hong, barre threatening to chargeback the purchase at the very end of it.

*Screenshot descriptions by order,
1)* Me pointing out to Jeff that he had changed my specs and him sending photos of the necks being different even though they were identically specced. They both have the same exact neck spec requests.

*2)* 2nd Screenshot is my back and forth with Jeff after he decided to leave the Redwood Burl natural, my reaction to it. Then Jeff saying it's already too late to fix, but also trying to get me to pay for the labor to fix his spec switch up.

I apologized (For no reason) for a misunderstanding on HIS part, where he seems to think I gave him "creative freedoms" to change my order at will. This never happened, since all interactions happened with Jeff over Text Messages and not calls up to this point this was easily proven.

He agreed to strip and refinish the guitar without any cost to me, as it should have been.

*3)* The screenshot is after my multiple warranty repairs, the guitar coming back with damage from the factory. Also the time frame, his message was after two weeks of silence and me requesting resolution on my KM6 Burl. And I get it, 19th is a few days before Christmas, then New Years, then NAMM back to back. But his employees aren't off the entire time, I literally got left hanging until I threatened to just forcibly return it.

Jeff offered me an exchange or rebuild, whatever I wanted (Credit on my account applied to next order in the case of exchange). But at this point I was too over it to care and simply wanted my money back.

Reminder, had to get a new flagship instrument repaired 2 - 3 times fully willing to happily keep it afterwards. Getting ghosted through the holidays, and then being told "This isn't a good time brother".

Being denied a refund due to it being a non-returnable model was a point made over the phone. That is what I referenced in my reply, and ultimately Jeff conceding and telling me to return the guitar because he knows that option 50 holds no ground when they do not deliver the product they promised to build.

Then jabs that "money is tight" at the end because I mentioned back when I ordered these fucking things that I had just graduated and was looking for work 

Yeah money was tight Jeff, as I went and replaced my entire Kiesel collection immediately on principle.

There are other examples of customers being told that they can't be refunded due to an option 50. These are in the past of course, and if Jeff has really improved within the last few years then more power to him and I wish him well.

"Never happens", right mbardu? 

What I'm not down with, is the mbardu spam and revisionist shit where he pretends that the company has never burned a single bridge unfairly when there are accounts of it here. It 100% HAS happened in the past to other customers, several of which were longstanding clients with multiple builds.


----------



## chipchappy

What ever happened with that "we were robbed" thing from like 4 years back?


----------



## technomancer

chipchappy said:


> What ever happened with that "we were robbed" thing from like 4 years back?



They weren't robbed, somebody used a fake credit card to buy a bunch of guitars. I believe they were all recovered. Basically the whole "robbery" thing was Jeff being Jeff.


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> They weren't robbed, somebody used a fake credit card to buy a bunch of guitars. I believe they were all recovered. Basically the whole "robbery" thing was Jeff being Jeff.



I know for sure they said at least 1 was never recovered. They were all being shipped overseas, and while that 1 was never delivered, they never got it back from that country's importing authority.


----------



## cip 123

technomancer said:


> They weren't robbed, somebody used a fake credit card to buy a bunch of guitars. I believe they were all recovered. Basically the whole "robbery" thing was Jeff being Jeff.


Damn it was made out to be some Mission Impossible shizz if I remember


----------



## spudmunkey

cip 123 said:


> Damn it was made out to be some Mission Impossible shizz if I remember



Here's the most recent update I can find. There was one that made it all the way to being delivered in Indonesia.

They were purchased and shipped to US addresses, which were freight forwarding companies in California, Delaware, Oregon and Florida, who were going to then send them off to Indonesia. Most of them were tracked down before they left the US, though.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/382890579557973/

When you ship out 16 guitars over the course of a couple of days to US addresses, and then later the cards don't complete the charge processing and you are on the hook for $40K in guitars...while also not being able to give details, likely on advice from the police and FBI, I can see how someone would use "robbed". Not a word I'd use, but hey...most dictionaries have an "informal" definition that doesn't necessarily mean "with the threat of force or physical harm".


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> He keeps referencing these quotes like
> 
> "Made in China Crap" - I searched BOTH Kiesel threads in, and this never came up.
> "They will void your warranty" - Has 100% happened, and if he really wants proof I will dig and find it.
> "They will leave you hanging if they send you the wrong guitar, or mess up your specs" - This happened, to me. I will literally provide a screenshot to shut him up.
> 
> @mbardu argues in bad faith, and uses the fact that no one has the time and willpower to fact check his bullshit by reading almost 200 pages of discussion surrounding Jeff Kiesel and his shady practices.
> 
> View attachment 87733
> View attachment 87734
> View attachment 87739
> 
> 
> Examples of my conversations with Jeff, none of them were aggro "Take it or leave it". I was never aggressive in my interactions with him nor Chris Hong, barre threatening to chargeback the purchase at the very end of it.
> 
> *Screenshot descriptions by order,
> 1)* Me pointing out to Jeff that he had changed my specs and him sending photos of the necks being different even though they were identically specced. They both have the same exact neck spec requests.
> 
> *2)* 2nd Screenshot is my back and forth with Jeff after he decided to leave the Redwood Burl natural, my reaction to it. Then Jeff saying it's already too late to fix, but also trying to get me to pay for the labor to fix his spec switch up.
> 
> I apologized (For no reason) for a misunderstanding on HIS part, where he seems to think I gave him "creative freedoms" to change my order at will. This never happened, since all interactions happened with Jeff over Text Messages and not calls up to this point this was easily proven.
> 
> He agreed to strip and refinish the guitar without any cost to me, as it should have been.
> 
> *3)* The screenshot is after my multiple warranty repairs, the guitar coming back with damage from the factory. Also the time frame, his message was after two weeks of silence and me requesting resolution on my KM6 Burl. And I get it, 19th is a few days before Christmas, then New Years, then NAMM back to back. But his employees aren't off the entire time, I literally got left hanging until I threatened to just forcibly return it.
> 
> Jeff offered me an exchange or rebuild, whatever I wanted (Credit on my account applied to next order in the case of exchange). But at this point I was too over it to care and simply wanted my money back.
> 
> Reminder, had to get a new flagship instrument repaired 2 - 3 times fully willing to happily keep it afterwards. Getting ghosted through the holidays, and then being told "This isn't a good time brother".
> 
> Being denied a refund due to it being a non-returnable model was a point made over the phone. That is what I referenced in my reply, and ultimately Jeff conceding and telling me to return the guitar because he knows that option 50 holds no ground when they do not deliver the product they promised to build.
> 
> Then jabs that "money is tight" at the end because I mentioned back when I ordered these fucking things that I had just graduated and was looking for work
> 
> Yeah money was tight Jeff, as I went and replaced my entire Kiesel collection immediately on principle.
> 
> There are other examples of customers being told that they can't be refunded due to an option 50. These are in the past of course, and if Jeff has really improved within the last few years then more power to him and I wish him well.
> 
> "Never happens", right mbardu?
> 
> What I'm not down with, is the mbardu spam and revisionist shit where he pretends that the company has never burned a single bridge unfairly when there are accounts of it here. It 100% HAS happened in the past to other customers, several of which were longstanding clients with multiple builds.



OK first of all, I'll say it right away. I'm only replying to you because someone pointed out to me that you keep bashing me behind my back, and I guess it _may _have been my fault I didn't see it because I _may _have put you on ignore when you started following me around and attacking me everywhere...sorry but that got old. I mean, not old for you since you keep doing it  

Regardless- I'll start by saying that although you seem to really, like _really _enjoy attacking me, I have no ill will against you. Like I told you the last time you attacked me btw. I also totally understand how your experience was shitty on that last builds of yours and that's no news- you explained it before.

Somehow you seem to think that I've said anything to deny your experience or diminish it somehow, but that just hasn't happened and I don't intend to start now- didn't really need screenshots or callouts for that. I did read them though, and TBH, after doing so I could be a jerk and say that if you did indeed say "whatever you think will look best", then it could have easily been interpreted as creative freedom and I could say that Jeff was actually more polite and reasonable in your screenshots compared to what you had implied of him in the past.
But even though we do not know any of your calls, and how those impressions of "creative freedom" came to be, we don't need to go there, I am happy to 100% believe your side of the story and I've said as much multiple times before. It's clear you were treated poorly and that must have been very frustrating. I even told you before (at least 3 times now) that I think you gave them too much latitude and went too far in the process, and should have just asked for a refund right away when it was apparent they had screwed up, instead of letting it go even further.

It feels like you like to repeat the shitty experience you had (and it's your right), but I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? You did get a refund and you were able to get rid of your Kiesels, no? Did I say that nobody had ever had a shitty experience with Kiesel ever (like you seem to imply) - and you're trying to disprove that? I challenge you to find anywhere where I said such a thing.

Anyway- you are specifically not an example of clients who were not refunded due to option 50 on a Kiesel screwup, are you? OP is not an example of non-refund either. Do you have actual examples of people who were unable to be refunded? I can think of the guy who didn't like his whitewash or light blue finish, maybe? Or the guy who didn't want to pay the 100$ restocking fee when his roasted maple was too light - but he did actually get refunded. Otherwise drawing a blank, while it sounds from what you're saying that there are plenty of examples.

Service-wise, I'll always acknowledge that they have made screwups. A lot of stupid ones actually, and I'll never defend their poor customer service when this happens. The owner of the company often being the reason for that btw, and your case is a prime example of it. Like, I sincerely challenge you to find an example of where I would have defended any of that.

Proof that I know your case and understand it is that it is actually among those why I never recommend people go to Kiesel for things that are too elaborate.
It's not their forte. And I understand nuance enough to know that it's not because they do something very well (basic build and great value, refund no questions asked if you don't like it) that they can do everything great (complex build with one-off options and non-returnable cosmetic choices).
It's just weird to me how some people lack similar nuance to see that them not being a great choice for the latter somehow means they cannot be great on the former. Life is not in black and white. Speaking of that nuance, you seem hell-bent on using your own shitty experience, which is a cascade of misunderstandings, and what-not-to-order from Kiesel because they will mess it up to now justify that no one else be allowed to buy anything good and 100% "safe" from them.
Is that your crusade now? Out of spite? Talk about a leap. Surely, you must realize that your case is the outlier of outliers right? Custom pair of guitars, with custom woods, thousands of dollars of cosmetic work, and debate on whether creative freedom was supposed to be involved or not? this applies to 0.01% of potential customers.

Anyway- regarding voiding warranties, if you have examples where they did that, please share.

Regarding "made in China crap", if you believe nobody has ever said before, good on you. And I'd be happy with it too. I do know for a fact that this was an argument that was made, and at the time I replied by describing their new shop in SoCal in details but whatever!

I sincerely doubt you've gone through the hundreds of page of topics to look for it considering the time it would physically take, and I won't have the courage to give you the exact link to it either. Especially because _every single time _I have made that effort for you in the past (go through specific posts, painstakingly quote specific sentences...), you just ignore them and shift the goalposts. 

On the other hand, you accuse me of stuff, but aren't really justifying any of it. As usual I should say. If you are interested in doing some sincere digging, please do- show me where I tried to diminish any of your bad experiences. Or anywhere at all where I said the company had never burned any bridge or treated a client unfairly. Please show me a single such example if you are the arbiter of truth. I'll wait! If not, then maybe stop making things up and putting words in my mouth, cheers!


----------



## chipchappy

technomancer said:


> Jeff being Jeff.



Gotcha. I remember there was drama around it and then it legit slipped my mind until this ^ more recent episode.


----------



## RevelGTR

I think it’s undeniable that Jeff has a habit of taking opportunities to generate good will and turning them into ammunition for Kiesel haters. The roasted neck thing has been discussed a million times but holy shit how much easier would it have been for Jeff to offer the guy a rebuild and say “hey, we’re actually going to do this like the rest of the industry from now on” right out of the gate?


----------



## High Plains Drifter

RevelGTR said:


> The roasted neck thing has been discussed a million times but holy shit how much easier would it have been for Jeff to offer the guy a rebuild and say “hey, we’re actually going to do this like the rest of the industry from now on” right out of the gate?



Because that would set an ethical precedence. That's why he works on a case-by-case basis and that's what's been frustrating for some Kiesel customers... never knowing if/ how he'll handle the next complaint.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> OK first of all, I'll say it right away. I'm only replying to you because someone pointed out to me that you keep bashing me behind my back, and I guess it _may _have been my fault I didn't see it because I _may _have put you on ignore when you started following me around and attacking me everywhere...sorry but that got old. I mean, not old for you since you keep doing it
> 
> Regardless- I'll start by saying that although you seem to really, like _really _enjoy attacking me, I have no ill will against you. Like I told you the last time you attacked me btw. I also totally understand how your experience was shitty on that last builds of yours and that's no news- you explained it before.
> 
> Somehow you seem to think that I've said anything to deny your experience or diminish it somehow, but that just hasn't happened and I don't intend to start now- didn't really need screenshots or callouts for that. I did read them though, and TBH, after doing so I could be a jerk and say that if you did indeed say "whatever you think will look best", then it could have easily been interpreted as creative freedom and I could say that Jeff was actually more polite and reasonable in your screenshots compared to what you had implied of him in the past.
> But even though we do not know any of your calls, and how those impressions of "creative freedom" came to be, we don't need to go there, I am happy to 100% believe your side of the story and I've said as much multiple times before. It's clear you were treated poorly and that must have been very frustrating. I even told you before (at least 3 times now) that I think you gave them too much latitude and went too far in the process, and should have just asked for a refund right away when it was apparent they had screwed up, instead of letting it go even further.
> 
> It feels like you like to repeat the shitty experience you had (and it's your right), but I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? You did get a refund and you were able to get rid of your Kiesels, no? Did I say that nobody had ever had a shitty experience with Kiesel ever (like you seem to imply) - and you're trying to disprove that? I challenge you to find anywhere where I said such a thing.
> 
> Anyway- you are specifically not an example of clients who were not refunded due to option 50 on a Kiesel screwup, are you? OP is not an example of non-refund either. Do you have actual examples of people who were unable to be refunded? I can think of the guy who didn't like his whitewash or light blue finish, maybe? Or the guy who didn't want to pay the 100$ restocking fee when his roasted maple was too light - but he did actually get refunded. Otherwise drawing a blank, while it sounds from what you're saying that there are plenty of examples.
> 
> Service-wise, I'll always acknowledge that they have made screwups. A lot of stupid ones actually, and I'll never defend their poor customer service when this happens. The owner of the company often being the reason for that btw, and your case is a prime example of it. Like, I sincerely challenge you to find an example of where I would have defended any of that.
> 
> Proof that I know your case and understand it is that it is actually among those why I never recommend people go to Kiesel for things that are too elaborate.
> It's not their forte. And I understand nuance enough to know that it's not because they do something very well (basic build and great value, refund no questions asked if you don't like it) that they can do everything great (complex build with one-off options and non-returnable cosmetic choices).
> It's just weird to me how some people lack similar nuance to see that them not being a great choice for the latter somehow means they cannot be great on the former. Life is not in black and white. Speaking of that nuance, you seem hell-bent on using your own shitty experience, which is a cascade of misunderstandings, and what-not-to-order from Kiesel because they will mess it up to now justify that no one else be allowed to buy anything good and 100% "safe" from them.
> Is that your crusade now? Out of spite? Talk about a leap. Surely, you must realize that your case is the outlier of outliers right? Custom pair of guitars, with custom woods, thousands of dollars of cosmetic work, and debate on whether creative freedom was supposed to be involved or not? this applies to 0.01% of potential customers.
> 
> Anyway- regarding voiding warranties, if you have examples where they did that, please share.
> 
> Regarding "made in China crap", if you believe nobody has ever said before, good on you. And I'd be happy with it too. I do know for a fact that this was an argument that was made, and at the time I replied by describing their new shop in SoCal in details but whatever!
> 
> I sincerely doubt you've gone through the hundreds of page of topics to look for it considering the time it would physically take, and I won't have the courage to give you the exact link to it either. Especially because _every single time _I have made that effort for you in the past (go through specific posts, painstakingly quote specific sentences...), you just ignore them and shift the goalposts.
> 
> On the other hand, you accuse me of stuff, but aren't really justifying any of it. As usual I should say. If you are interested in doing some sincere digging, please do- show me where I tried to diminish any of your bad experiences. Or anywhere at all where I said the company had never burned any bridge or treated a client unfairly. Please show me a single such example if you are the arbiter of truth. I'll wait! If not, then maybe stop making things up and putting words in my mouth, cheers!



First off, characterizing back and forth conversation in a thread that YOU willingly return to just to white knight Jeff Kiesel as, "you started *following* me around and *attacking* me everywhere".

 You were never followed, we both took part in various discussions on this forum. You keep thinking I'm attacking you, as if that's even a justifiable defense for getting reasonably called out when you say something that is untrue, it's the same as the people who plead that their freedom of speech is being impaired. You're getting called out, not attacked bro.

If I'm reading this right, you're not undermining my experience, 100% believe me. But you'll still sit here and still lay doubt that I *may *have given Jeff creative freedoms, despite Jeff saying he will scroll up and re-read, then returning and doing the finish work free of charge because he was in fact WRONG about me giving him creative freedoms.

Saying "well you and everyone you cite *eventually *got refunded", isn't exactly a defense of Kiesel under pressure either. Because If I have to threaten that I'll just pull the funds for receiving products "Not as described" which is an automatic loss for Kiesel before I get my money back, that's not an opportunity to congratulate Kiesel for making it right. Jeff Kiesel didn't "misunderstand anything", our entire conversation was over text messages barre any phone calls by the time I wanted my money back. I submitted an invoice, and the dude pretended I gave him my permission to go wild and changed my specs, I can't believe you even manage to turn facts around and give him the benefit of the doubt 

It's not out of spite that I retell my experience, because I have the rights to do so, I do so because you seem to say that Kiesel will make things right and take a returns no questions asked. It just retells a story, that despite ordering a custom Kiesel even with Option 50's, the reason I was told I would not be receiving a refund for my messed up Kiesel. Was because it was an option 50.

1) They honored their warranty, 2 - 3 times in fact and made the problem worse.
2) They refused a return on a product received in far less than desired condition and different to the specifications agreed on.
3) I was forced to threaten a chargeback before he conceded and DID give me my money back.

So you painting Kiesel as if they never deny customers legitimate refunds on the grounds of option 50, is 100% factually wrong. I don't need to corroborate every story in this thread to validate that Kiesel chose to do this in the past. I am not the only person who retells these experiences others have had, meanwhile you are the only person saying that they will accept returns no questions asked (On Base, non Option 50 Instruments).

Kiesel needs to drop the custom shop moniker, and build production guitars because if they don't accept returns for products they fail to build correctly or mess up in any other fashion.

And we don't need to surf 200+ pages of discussion, we have a perfectly capable search engine. AFAIK both Kiesel threads don't contain that interaction, the references to China/Chinese I found were the following.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-192#post-5125824

1 Person, a SINGLE person saying that Chinese guitars have reached the level of quality that Kiesel outputs. Not a small group of people, not many everyone in the thread, and actually surprisingly not even in the Kiesel: Never again! thread LOL.

Yet you keep characterizing that "people" are parroting that Kiesel are crappy chinese guitars, meanwhile no one ever did that and you have run with that narrative a few times I've seen you post in here.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-192#post-5125895

But we do have instances where well respected people like a forum mod mention that negative experiences exist with Kiesel. It's actually quite interesting reading back into select periods of time in both of the Kiesel threads to look back on how people responded to issues that come up.


----------



## Hollowway

I think it’s clear that Jeff wants to be a big player, but appears to want to cut corners on the way there. Denying a repeat customer a $200 paint job on a K series instrument is a perfect example of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. Which is fine, if that’s how he wants to run the business. But I think the rest of us need to realize that Kiesel is basking in the glow of the legendary customer service from the Carvin era. It’s gone. We need to think of Kiesel as a separate company, and expect that if we don’t get what we want it may be an uphill battle to get a resolution. Just because Carvin had these policies doesn’t mean Kiesel as to, or will. I dealt with Carvin back in the day, and I’ve dealt with Kiesel now. Carvin used to go out of their way to help. It was shockingly good (at least in my experience). With Kiesel, I’ve had only a handful of interactions, and they’ve been about 50-50 in terms of good vs bad. Nothing horrible, just getting rude responses on the phone, etc. I pretty much determined after the last time that I’ll just buy used stuff from now on, so I don’t need to worry about getting treated poorly when I “call the guys.” The guitars are awesome, of course. I love them. I just won’t buy one directly from the company anymore.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> First off, characterizing back and forth conversation in a thread that YOU willingly return to just to white knight Jeff Kiesel as, "you started *following* me around and *attacking* me everywhere".
> 
> You were never followed, we both took part in various discussions on this forum. You keep thinking I'm attacking you, as if that's even a justifiable defense for getting reasonably called out when you say something that is untrue, it's the same as the people who plead that their freedom of speech is being impaired. You're getting called out, not attacked bro.
> 
> If I'm reading this right, you're not undermining my experience, 100% believe me. But you'll still sit here and still lay doubt that I *may *have given Jeff creative freedoms, despite Jeff saying he will scroll up and re-read, then returning and doing the finish work free of charge because he was in fact WRONG about me giving him creative freedoms.
> 
> Saying "well you and everyone you cite *eventually *got refunded", isn't exactly a defense of Kiesel under pressure either. Because If I have to threaten that I'll just pull the funds for receiving products "Not as described" which is an automatic loss for Kiesel before I get my money back, that's not an opportunity to congratulate Kiesel for making it right. Jeff Kiesel didn't "misunderstand anything", our entire conversation was over text messages barre any phone calls by the time I wanted my money back. I submitted an invoice, and the dude pretended I gave him my permission to go wild and changed my specs, I can't believe you even manage to turn facts around and give him the benefit of the doubt
> 
> It's not out of spite that I retell my experience, because I have the rights to do so, I do so because you seem to say that Kiesel will make things right and take a returns no questions asked. It just retells a story, that despite ordering a custom Kiesel even with Option 50's, the reason I was told I would not be receiving a refund for my messed up Kiesel. Was because it was an option 50.
> 
> 1) They honored their warranty, 2 - 3 times in fact and made the problem worse.
> 2) They refused a return on a product received in far less than desired condition and different to the specifications agreed on.
> 3) I was forced to threaten a chargeback before he conceded and DID give me my money back.
> 
> So you painting Kiesel as if they never deny customers legitimate refunds on the grounds of option 50, is 100% factually wrong. I don't need to corroborate every story in this thread to validate that Kiesel chose to do this in the past. I am not the only person who retells these experiences others have had, meanwhile you are the only person saying that they will accept returns no questions asked (On Base, non Option 50 Instruments).
> 
> Kiesel needs to drop the custom shop moniker, and build production guitars because if they don't accept returns for products they fail to build correctly or mess up in any other fashion.
> 
> And we don't need to surf 200+ pages of discussion, we have a perfectly capable search engine. AFAIK both Kiesel threads don't contain that interaction, the references to China/Chinese I found were the following.
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-192#post-5125824
> 
> 1 Person, a SINGLE person saying that Chinese guitars have reached the level of quality that Kiesel outputs. Not a small group of people, not many everyone in the thread, and actually surprisingly not even in the Kiesel: Never again! thread LOL.
> 
> Yet you keep characterizing that "people" are parroting that Kiesel are crappy chinese guitars, meanwhile no one ever did that and you have run with that narrative a few times I've seen you post in here.
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/page-192#post-5125895
> 
> But we do have instances where well respected people like a forum mod mention that negative experiences exist with Kiesel. It's actually quite interesting reading back into select periods of time in both of the Kiesel threads to look back on how people responded to issues that come up.



I really don't know what kind of "gotcha" you're trying to get with the fixation on China. Maybe I don't recall properly and it was "overseas" or "in Asia" or something else, but I'm positive I corrected someone about where the factory was and how their production quality supposedly dropped as a result. And if everyone suddenly says "no that's stupid, Kiesel is clearly not Chinese crap", then I'm happy with that  . No matter though, I'll gladly admit that maybe it was not China specifically, and for that matter I didn't ever _pretend _that _*everyone *_said that- or even a large group. Why would the group even matter except for your strawman?
Simply, it was said so I corrected it at the time. Just like I didn't _make up the fact _that people said their quality was crap. Both did happen and I'm just saying both are made up BS.

Why don't _you _back up what _you're_ saying for once. If you have so many legit cases of people who didn't get their refunds (and no, the "it doesn't look quite like I imagined" doesn't count  ), please feel free to share a couple. If you have so many cases of voided warranties, please feel free to share a few as well. As it stands the grand total is still 0.

Regarding your issue with them, I'll say it again. Anyone could say it's a "he said she said matter" but I won't and don't even need to go there. Believe it or not, I believe you. And your experience was shitty, did I say otherwise? And you're far from the only one having had shitty experience with them btw. Does it mean you're the majority suddenly? Definitely no. Shit happens. Yet, despite your scenario being the worst possible one, you got a refund and lost almost nothing in the process. Yeah, a couple of months are annoying, but it's almost nothing in the guitar world. Yeah not getting the guitar of your dreams is annoying. But being stuck with a guitar you don't like with no hope of refund from virtually any other builder is worse.

As for Kiesel, they'll do what they want  . I think everyone, absolutely everyone would like them to be better in terms of customer service, and go back to the glorious Carvin days in that area. it would be better for the customer, but what is infuriating is that they don't realize it would also be better for the business.
But they're not going to suddenly become a production shop just because you said so on the internet on the basis of your very (_very_) unique negative experience with them (a process that from the start I would not recommend to anyone). For all the regular builds though, every day they pump custom-specced guitars that make thousands of people happy, and they make bank in the process. Why would they change? Whether you like it or not, they also happily take returns from people who either decided the brand is not for them and want a refund, or want to get something else built instead. So people are able to customize a unique guitar to their liking, with pretty high made-in-USA quality, try new things they would never have imagined- built in record time, and still return it no question asked if they don't like it. But somehow you get to decide that no, it's unfair that _anyone _gets to do that because _you _had a shitty experience when you decided to go for the customest of custom specs to be handled by Jeff and Jeff only and it went wrong from there? This makes 0 sense (which incidentally matches your number of examples above).


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> I really don't know what kind of "gotcha" you're trying to get with the fixation on China. Maybe I don't recall properly and it was "overseas" or "in Asia" or something else, but I'm positive I corrected someone about where the factory was and how their production quality supposedly dropped as a result. And if everyone suddenly says "no that's stupid, Kiesel is clearly not Chinese crap", then I'm happy with that  . No matter though, I'll gladly admit that maybe it was not China specifically, and for that matter I didn't ever _pretend _that _*everyone *_said that- or even a large group. Why would the group even matter except for your strawman?
> Simply, it was said so I corrected it at the time. Just like I didn't _make up the fact _that people said their quality was crap. Both did happen and I'm just saying both are made up BS.
> 
> Why don't _you _back up what _you're_ saying for once. If you have so many legit cases of people who didn't get their refunds (and no, the "it doesn't look quite like I imagined" doesn't count  ), please feel free to share a couple. If you have so many cases of voided warranties, please feel free to share a few as well. As it stands the grand total is still 0.
> 
> Regarding your issue with them, I'll say it again. Anyone could say it's a "he said she said matter" but I won't and don't even need to go there. Believe it or not, I believe you. And your experience was shitty, did I say otherwise? And you're far from the only one having had shitty experience with them btw. Does it mean you're the majority suddenly? Definitely no. Shit happens. Yet, despite your scenario being the worst possible one, you got a refund and lost almost nothing in the process. Yeah, a couple of months are annoying, but it's almost nothing in the guitar world. Yeah not getting the guitar of your dreams is annoying. But being stuck with a guitar you don't like with no hope of refund from virtually any other builder is worse.
> 
> As for Kiesel, they'll do what they want  . I think everyone, absolutely everyone would like them to be better in terms of customer service, and go back to the glorious Carvin days in that area. it would be better for the customer, but what is infuriating is that they don't realize it would also be better for the business.
> But they're not going to suddenly become a production shop just because you said so on the internet on the basis of your very (_very_) unique negative experience with them (a process that from the start I would not recommend to anyone). For all the regular builds though, every day they pump custom-specced guitars that make thousands of people happy, and they make bank in the process. Why would they change? Whether you like it or not, they also happily take returns from people who either decided the brand is not for them and want a refund, or want to get something else built instead. So people are able to customize a unique guitar to their liking, with pretty high made-in-USA quality, try new things they would never have imagined- built in record time, and still return it no question asked if they don't like it. But somehow you get to decide that no, it's unfair that _anyone _gets to do that because _you _had a shitty experience when you decided to go for the customest of custom specs to be handled by Jeff and Jeff only and it went wrong from there? This makes 0 sense (which incidentally matches your number of examples above).



There is no gotcha, you repeatedly mentioned over the last pages that *people* came in and all suggested that Kiesels were crap and MIC now.

*mbardu quote(s) - *
"some people jumped in to say that Kiesel was crap because they were secretly made in *China *now"
"The only thing I'm doing is replying when people throw out some things that are just 100% false. As in "they're crap made in *China*" or "they will void your warranty" or "they will leave you hanging if they send you the wrong guitar with the wrong specs" which are all demonstrably false."





That was just me proving that no one implied what you were saying, and at best maybe 1 person several months ago had made any assertion even close to what you're implying "people" are saying.

*mbardu quote - *
"Regarding "made in China crap", if you believe nobody has ever said before, good on you. And I'd be happy with it too. I do know for a fact that this was an argument that was made, and at the time I replied by describing their new shop in SoCal in details but whatever!"

I'm just saying after a basic search, I didn't find anything in regards to what you're talking about 

Onto the no refunds thing, I can dig them up at some other point in time because it's 2am and I need rest. But it's a pretty insane request given you acknowledged how much time it would take to even do that. But how about we go back to my story once again, because you mentioned that Jeff was actually much nicer than I characterized him and that I painted him out far more negatively than he acted (???).




*My original post in this thread about my experience - *
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-6#post-4715827

There's a link to the first time I wrote the experience out, and it hilariously seems like I left even more details out! And reviewing my original post, I didn't misrepresent anything Jeff told me like you suggested, it's not verbatim what the text conversation is but I didn't paint Jeff in any negative light, I just relayed his actions and why they were bullshit.

*Jeff **suggested **a finish change and did it** without **asking me about it first. *
Then he tried to guilt me about the labor and that I'd have to pay an extra cost to get what I requested on my spec sheet and not his weird change of MY specs. Which he conceded because it was plain to see in our all text conversation that I had never at any point given him ANY creative freedoms with my build. A misunderstanding on HIS part, not mine. That's why he agreed to refinish it free of cost, because HE made a call without telling me about it then tried pinning it on me.

You can read the post linked about the damages when I received it and after the repair attempts.

But in regards to that great refund I got,
1) I had to pay return shipping, on a guitar with factory flaws that were made worse on attempts to repair.
2) I had to threaten an arm twisting measure to even get him to refund me, which is far from the painless process you paint it out to be.
3) He wrongfully implies that "money must be tight" because of course Jeff has to be snide when he's exhausted his options.
4) They tried to stiff me my original deposit, even though my phone call to finalize the shipping details with Chris implied a full refund.
5) Get the remainder refunded after calling them and throwing it out there that I can literally just file a claim and make this way more difficult than it needs to be.

In at least 1 example, a customer (me) was refused a refund until they got their arm twisted because they felt they could enforce their Option 50 rule. Now lets stop pretending it's never happened, because it has 

Your last paragraph is generally all the great things that Kiesel represents, and I'd agree that on paper that's all perfect. But the experience can and has been flawed, pretending it's not just because you don't have to order option 50's and you can legally return your guitar without risk isn't helping anyone change for the better.


----------



## lurè

Best solution for kiesel is just fix their goddamn online builder and put all the options clearly visible on their 1995 website.


----------



## DeathbyDesign

lurè said:


> Best solution for kiesel is just fix their goddamn online builder and put all the options clearly visible on their 1995 website.


I feel like if they fixed that Geocities site and listed all of the current options, they wouldn't be able to back peddle and say it was an option 50 non returnable feature when the customer tries to send it back.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Jesus can we stop the childish bickering mbardu and jonathan20022. 
Take it to PM. No one cares about your beef.

We only eat BBQ pork/chicken/ other meat substitutes


----------



## Jonathan20022

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Jesus can we stop the childish bickering mbardu and jonathan20022.
> Take it to PM. No one cares about your beef.
> 
> We only eat BBQ pork/chicken/ other meat substitutes



Why don't you just go back to checking your reverb feed until an overpriced Abasi shows up to complain about.

 But more importantly while chicken is great, beef is king.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> There is no gotcha, you repeatedly mentioned over the last pages that *people* came in and all suggested that Kiesels were crap and MIC now.
> 
> *mbardu quote(s) - *
> "some people jumped in to say that Kiesel was crap because they were secretly made in *China *now"
> "The only thing I'm doing is replying when people throw out some things that are just 100% false. As in "they're crap made in *China*" or "they will void your warranty" or "they will leave you hanging if they send you the wrong guitar with the wrong specs" which are all demonstrably false."
> 
> View attachment 87743
> View attachment 87744
> 
> 
> That was just me proving that no one implied what you were saying, and at best maybe 1 person several months ago had made any assertion even close to what you're implying "people" are saying.
> 
> *mbardu quote - *
> "Regarding "made in China crap", if you believe nobody has ever said before, good on you. And I'd be happy with it too. I do know for a fact that this was an argument that was made, and at the time I replied by describing their new shop in SoCal in details but whatever!"
> 
> I'm just saying after a basic search, I didn't find anything in regards to what you're talking about
> 
> Onto the no refunds thing, I can dig them up at some other point in time because it's 2am and I need rest. But it's a pretty insane request given you acknowledged how much time it would take to even do that. But how about we go back to my story once again, because you mentioned that Jeff was actually much nicer than I characterized him and that I painted him out far more negatively than he acted (???).
> 
> View attachment 87745
> 
> 
> *My original post in this thread about my experience - *
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-6#post-4715827
> 
> There's a link to the first time I wrote the experience out, and it hilariously seems like I left even more details out! And reviewing my original post, I didn't misrepresent anything Jeff told me like you suggested, it's not verbatim what the text conversation is but I didn't paint Jeff in any negative light, I just relayed his actions and why they were bullshit.
> 
> *Jeff **suggested **a finish change and did it** without **asking me about it first. *
> Then he tried to guilt me about the labor and that I'd have to pay an extra cost to get what I requested on my spec sheet and not his weird change of MY specs. Which he conceded because it was plain to see in our all text conversation that I had never at any point given him ANY creative freedoms with my build. A misunderstanding on HIS part, not mine. That's why he agreed to refinish it free of cost, because HE made a call without telling me about it then tried pinning it on me.
> 
> You can read the post linked about the damages when I received it and after the repair attempts.
> 
> But in regards to that great refund I got,
> 1) I had to pay return shipping, on a guitar with factory flaws that were made worse on attempts to repair.
> 2) I had to threaten an arm twisting measure to even get him to refund me, which is far from the painless process you paint it out to be.
> 3) He wrongfully implies that "money must be tight" because of course Jeff has to be snide when he's exhausted his options.
> 4) They tried to stiff me my original deposit, even though my phone call to finalize the shipping details with Chris implied a full refund.
> 5) Get the remainder refunded after calling them and throwing it out there that I can literally just file a claim and make this way more difficult than it needs to be.
> 
> In at least 1 example, a customer (me) was refused a refund until they got their arm twisted because they felt they could enforce their Option 50 rule. Now lets stop pretending it's never happened, because it has
> 
> Your last paragraph is generally all the great things that Kiesel represents, and I'd agree that on paper that's all perfect. But the experience can and has been flawed, pretending it's not just because you don't have to order option 50's and you can legally return your guitar without risk isn't helping anyone change for the better.



Dude, can you stop with China now? I told you already it may have been "overseas" or "Asia" or whatever, I'm sure you understand the point and are just being obtuse on purpose. If your point is nobody should say anything close to "Kiesel is China crap quality" because it's stupid, then even better! I'm 100% OK to say that's stupid. But when someone says Kiesel is import crap quality, I called it out no in the past, and I'll call it out in the future.

As for your refund experience, I can stop you right there. I don't even need to debate it with you because *I never said it was great*. So I don't even need to go further. I literally said it was unfair. I literally said "I could go into the he-said/she said discussion about your points, but no I choose to believe you instead". It's also unique and extreme but whatever. For _once_, like _once_, back up what you are saying and show where I said the opposite, or just stop. I said your experience was shitty about a dozen times and everyone was witness of that.

You on the other hand pretended it was easy for you to find a bunch of people who didn't get refunds, and you are yet to present 1 single example. You pretended you have examples on unfair voided warranties, and have still provided 0. Now that you cannot put up, you pivot. So knock yourself out, but you're not exactly the embodiment of good faith.

My last paragraph is the reality of the large (and I mean *large*) majority of Kiesel clients. Note that large majority doesn't mean entirety- we all know your case. So nobody has pretended that the experience cannot be flawed- I'm the first to say it can be, and especially to recommend against getting orders like yours, because it may end up bad. I am making no absolutes on my end. None. Did I say "Kiesel is always perfect"? As usual, good luck finding that. 
Compare that to you, taking your single experience, and deciding that somehow because of that Kiesel should totally change their business model and no longer offer custom?!? While they make tons of customers happy and make bank in the process? This makes no sense.


----------



## technomancer

So to bring this remotely back on topic and to something current and actually meaningful, since I haven't been following along on social media has Kiesel responded to the multiple defective headless necks? That seems like an actual current issue worth talking about since it literally put the breaks on me ordering a guitar.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Dude, can you stop with China now? I told you already it may have been "overseas" or "Asia" or whatever, I'm sure you understand the point and are just being obtuse on purpose. If your point is nobody should say anything close to "Kiesel is China crap quality" because it's stupid, then even better! I'm 100% OK to say that's stupid. But when someone says Kiesel is import crap quality, I called it out no in the past, and I'll call it out in the future.
> 
> As for your refund experience, I can stop you right there. I don't even need to debate it with you because *I never said it was great*. So I don't even need to go further. I literally said it was unfair. I literally said "I could go into the he-said/she said discussion about your points, but no I choose to believe you instead". It's also unique and extreme but whatever. For _once_, like _once_, back up what you are saying and show where I said the opposite, or just stop. I said your experience was shitty about a dozen times and everyone was witness of that.
> 
> You on the other hand pretended it was easy for you to find a bunch of people who didn't get refunds, and you are yet to present 1 single example. You pretended you have examples on unfair voided warranties, and have still provided 0. Now that you cannot put up, you pivot. So knock yourself out, but you're not exactly the embodiment of good faith.
> 
> My last paragraph is the reality of the large (and I mean *large*) majority of Kiesel clients. Note that large majority doesn't mean entirety- we all know your case. So nobody has pretended that the experience cannot be flawed- I'm the first to say it can be, and especially to recommend against getting orders like yours, because it may end up bad. I am making no absolutes on my end. None. Did I say "Kiesel is always perfect"? As usual, good luck finding that.
> Compare that to you, taking your single experience, and deciding that somehow because of that Kiesel should totally change their business model and no longer offer custom?!? While they make tons of customers happy and make bank in the process? This makes no sense.



I'm not sure why you're avoiding it, but the reason I spoke about your china bit is because it didn't happen. Prove me wrong, but I did my homework and you seem to be making that interaction up.

If you want examples of voided warranties, ask whoever made that claim, cause I never did.

If you want an example of denial of return, and the eventual pain in the ass process, you can have mine.

The fact that it happened once is enough for me, and others. I know there are others, and off the cuff I actually remember @yellowv was denied a refund on his scratched Vader. Cited reason was he requested an option 50 zero fret, they would not accept a return regardless of delivering it with scratches on the guitar & crooked side dots?

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/extremely-unhappy-with-kiesel.308669/

EDIT: Here's another one on the Carvin BBS, wrong finish tail piece, missing stain spec on the spec sheet.

http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=35322

He was offered a discount on his next guitar, and they didn't offer any other solutions. 

No pivot, you literally cannot make this shit up  the only reason I brought this situation up is because you jogged my memory and I was able to search google for it with his username. If you want more examples, here's the shovel and you're already in the thread.



technomancer said:


> So to bring this remotely back on topic and to something current and actually meaningful, since I haven't been following along on social media has Kiesel responded to the multiple defective headless necks? That seems like an actual current issue worth talking about since it literally put the breaks on me ordering a guitar.



I highly doubt they don't at least say something about it, it's enough affected Vaders and it's been up for so long that silently resolving the few that were posted & not putting out a PSA would look quite bad.

Early assumptions were that it only affected roasted maple, then the thin neck options, but it seems to happen on a variety of headless guitars with different specs. I'd just hold off on any headless if I was in your position.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm not sure why you're avoiding it, but the reason I spoke about your china bit is because it didn't happen. Prove me wrong, but I did my homework and you seem to be making that interaction up.
> 
> If you want examples of voided warranties, ask whoever made that claim, cause I never did.



Sure, except I'll refer you to your own words:



Jonathan20022 said:


> "They will void your warranty" - Has 100% happened, and if he really wants proof I will dig and find it.



That's just on the previous page and I didn't put those words in your mouth.
But as usual, you won't provide.



Jonathan20022 said:


> I know there are others, and off the cuff I actually remember @yellowv was denied a refund on his scratched Vader. Cited reason was he requested an option 50 zero fret, they would not accept a return regardless of delivering it with scratches on the guitar & crooked side dots?
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/extremely-unhappy-with-kiesel.308669/



This is literally, exactly a case of "they won't take back just because the customer changed his mind". The guitar was functionally perfect from the start as far as we can tell. Then they did a refinish on his guitar to bring it up to par in terms of cosmetics. So at the the end of the day, the buyer got exactly the guitar they ordered, with no cosmetic issues (albeit with a couple of weeks of waiting time and associated hassle because Kiesel had to fix it). But clearly, they had to fix it, and they did 100%, and just like you would expect, they did it 100% at their own cost because it was their fault for the scratches.
Returning for a refund at that point falls squarely in the category of "you ordered it that way, and we won't take it back just because you changed your mind".
Any other builder/dealer (jackson is a good example) would have given the _exact _same response: fix the guitar, not refund it because the customer changed his mind.

Not saying it's great, but that's the contract you enter in when you agree to "I want this specific thing so I waive my 10-day trial". Kiesel is the only one allowing you the option for a return for refund on 90% of their builds, so only 10% of builds have even the _potential_ of such a scenario . The above would not happen for 10% of orders, but for 100% of cases for other builders.



Jonathan20022 said:


> EDIT: Here's another one on the Carvin BBS, wrong finish tail piece, missing stain spec on the spec sheet.
> 
> http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=35322
> 
> He was offered a discount on his next guitar, and they didn't offer any other solutions.



If you read more than a single post, you'll see that the buyer was _happy _to be credited 200$ off because he didn't actually mind the look and found that great guitar otherwise. Some other people at the same period were saying "no I don't want a partial refund, I want to return it" and had no issues- it's just that that particular person _chose _not to do so. I know, because I was super active in that very forum at that time. I personally think the 200$ off was a pretty good deal on that particular guitar (that still looked great IMO)- and the owner clearly thought so too. His words:_ "I didn't press the issue about returning, because it played and sounded like a dream plus they gave me a fair discount on my CT7. My main complaint was the color not matching and burl quality - not technical, so that's another reason I didn't press for a refund/rebuild"_.



Jonathan20022 said:


> No pivot, you literally cannot make this shit up  the only reason I brought this situation up is because you jogged my memory and I was able to search google for it with his username. If you want more examples, here's the shovel and you're already in the thread.



That's still 0, sorry. Not that I particularly care, because even on option 50s, I think rebuilds vs refunds would be 100% fair (after all, the buyer choose to waive the 10-day trial and that's what every other builder does on _all_ their builds )- but it's not even that. People who pressed for it got refunds when they wanted. It's just funny that you keep talking about piles of examples, just like voided warranties, and there are still 0.

And even if you were able to find an example (please do), does it justify you saying they should stop doing any custom somehow? The large majority of people (and what I recommend 100% of the time) don't come close to non-returnable builds in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

technomancer said:


> So to bring this remotely back on topic and to something current and actually meaningful, since I haven't been following along on social media has Kiesel responded to the multiple defective headless necks? That seems like an actual current issue worth talking about since it literally put the breaks on me ordering a guitar.



I am listening to you bud. I think it does need to be talked about. I would say I have never experienced it on the 5+ headless models I have had from them but never kept one more than 2 months.

Do you think it is a wood quality issue or a design flaw?

We need more info like which models it was on.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

Jonathan20022 said:


> Why don't you just go back to checking your reverb feed until an overpriced Abasi shows up to complain about.
> 
> But more importantly while chicken is great, beef is king.



Pew pew. Shots fired.

I like beef too. It is WAY better than chicken but the price of it is also higher. I had a top sirloin last Friday that I pan fried in butter and garlic. So good.


----------



## bostjan

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Pew pew. Shots fired.
> 
> I like beef too. It is WAY better than chicken but the price of it is also higher. I had a top sirloin last Friday that I pan fried in butter and garlic. So good.



But pan fried in butter is option 50.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

bostjan said:


> But pan fried in butter is option 50.


Yeah but they said it would be RAD. It was truly devastating.

I have watched too many of their live streams when I was a fan boy that I j ow all of Jeff’s major vocab words.

Rad, devastating, other complies, cool( brother, sick, kiesel, Koa, some form of grading, master grade, hey guys.


I would love for something to create an AI with all his words and see what comes out.


----------



## mbardu

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Yeah but they said it would be RAD. It was truly devastating.
> 
> I have watched too many of their live streams when I was a fan boy that I j ow all of Jeff’s major vocab words.
> 
> Rad, devastating, other complies, cool( brother, sick, kiesel, Koa, some form of grading, master grade, hey guys.
> 
> 
> I would love for something to create an AI with all his words and see what comes out.



Don't play with fire, that's a doomsday scenario right there. The AI becomes sentient and terminator-like (except headless) machines start beveling humans to death while chanting "join the family". Is that what you want?


----------



## spudmunkey

technomancer said:


> So to bring this remotely back on topic and to something current and actually meaningful, since I haven't been following along on social media has Kiesel responded to the multiple defective headless necks? That seems like an actual current issue worth talking about since it literally put the breaks on me ordering a guitar.



I can't imagine they will make any sort of public statement unless it's *way* more widespread than we've seen in these...I think 5 or 6 guitars. At this point, it's still probably a low enough quantity to just fix them as warranty issues as they come up.


----------



## chipchappy

spudmunkey said:


> I can't imagine they will make any sort of public statement unless it's *way* more widespread than we've seen in these...I think 5 or 6 guitars. At this point, it's still probably a low enough quantity to just shit on and insult customers for even asking for a refund while publicly humiliating them in videos, only responding/giving in it to them after several attempts and disputes



yeah, totally


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Sure, except I'll refer you to your own words:
> 
> 
> 
> That's just on the previous page and I didn't put those words in your mouth.
> But as usual, you won't provide.
> 
> 
> 
> This is literally, exactly a case of "they won't take back just because the customer changed his mind". The guitar was functionally perfect from the start as far as we can tell. Then they did a refinish on his guitar to bring it up to par in terms of cosmetics. So at the the end of the day, the buyer got exactly the guitar they ordered, with no cosmetic issues (albeit with a couple of weeks of waiting time and associated hassle because Kiesel had to fix it). But clearly, they had to fix it, and they did 100%, and just like you would expect, they did it 100% at their own cost because it was their fault for the scratches.
> Returning for a refund at that point falls squarely in the category of "you ordered it that way, and we won't take it back just because you changed your mind".
> Any other builder/dealer (jackson is a good example) would have given the _exact _same response: fix the guitar, not refund it because the customer changed his mind.
> 
> Not saying it's great, but that's the contract you enter in when you agree to "I want this specific thing so I waive my 10-day trial". Kiesel is the only one allowing you the option for a return for refund on 90% of their builds, so only 10% of builds have even the _potential_ of such a scenario . The above would not happen for 10% of orders, but for 100% of cases for other builders.
> 
> 
> 
> If you read more than a single post, you'll see that the buyer was _happy _to be credited 200$ off because he didn't actually mind the look and found that great guitar otherwise. Some other people at the same period were saying "no I don't want a partial refund, I want to return it" and had no issues- it's just that that particular person _chose _not to do so. I know, because I was super active in that very forum at that time. I personally think the 200$ off was a pretty good deal on that particular guitar (that still looked great IMO)- and the owner clearly thought so too. His words:_ "I didn't press the issue about returning, because it played and sounded like a dream plus they gave me a fair discount on my CT7. My main complaint was the color not matching and burl quality - not technical, so that's another reason I didn't press for a refund/rebuild"_.
> 
> 
> 
> That's still 0, sorry. Not that I particularly care, because even on option 50s, I think rebuilds vs refunds would be 100% fair (after all, the buyer choose to waive the 10-day trial and that's what every other builder does on _all_ their builds )- but it's not even that. People who pressed for it got refunds when they wanted. It's just funny that you keep talking about piles of examples, just like voided warranties, and there are still 0.
> 
> And even if you were able to find an example (please do), does it justify you saying they should stop doing any custom somehow? The large majority of people (and what I recommend 100% of the time) don't come close to non-returnable builds in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.



First off, I didn't bring the claim to the table that they voided people's warranties. That's what I meant, I told you to take it up with the individual that did, but I recall it happening before. But I'll take it on the chin, enjoy your gotcha.

My argument is that they use Option 50 to deny returns to customers who will validly request it. And in those cases, including BBS dude who said he was not allowed to get a rebuild/refund, it still holds true.

The people linked were entitled to refunds no matter what the fuck spec you put on those guitars, because they were delivered in poor condition, or not as described.

By law, if you purchase something and it is not what you requested, is damaged, or defective. You have a right to refuse receipt at any point in time. And no I'm not saying "It doesn't look good", I'm saying "You painted my red Kiesel blue". Which is the case with the BBS Link I sent.

But at the end of the day if all you're gonna do is say, yeah well they *eventually *got their refund so that doesn't count. Then I'm not sure you're trying to help anyone but Kiesel in this discussion.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

mbardu said:


> Don't play with fire, that's a doomsday scenario right there. The AI becomes sentient and terminator-like (except headless) machines start beveling humans to death while chanting "join the family". Is that what you want?




00010001000111000100001

CALL MY GUYS

000100010001110010101010001


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> First off, I didn't bring the claim to the table that they voided people's warranties. That's what I meant, I told you to take it up with the individual that did, but I recall it happening before. But I'll take it on the chin, enjoy your gotcha.
> 
> My argument is that they use Option 50 to deny returns to customers who will validly request it. And in those cases, including BBS dude who said he was not allowed to get a rebuild/refund, it still holds true.
> 
> The people linked were entitled to refunds no matter what the fuck spec you put on those guitars, because they were delivered in poor condition, or not as described.
> 
> By law, if you purchase something and it is not what you requested, is damaged, or defective. You have a right to refuse receipt at any point in time. And no I'm not saying "It doesn't look good", I'm saying "You painted my red Kiesel blue". Which is the case with the BBS Link I sent.
> 
> But at the end of the day if all you're gonna do is say, yeah well they *eventually *got their refund so that doesn't count. Then I'm not sure you're trying to help anyone but Kiesel in this discussion.



Regarding the guy with the SH and wrong color, he said literally that he _chose _not to pursue refund/rebuild. The option that Kiesel offered him at first (cash credit), maybe you would not have liked it, but clearly it was satisfactory to him, and he found the resolution fair as well because the guitar was perfect otherwise. it's literally his words in the link you shared that I copied above. Other people chose a refund for similar issues instead and got it.

If you say the Vader-with-scratches guy was entitled to a full refund, and anything less is bad business (even though he _agreed _to waive the 10-day trial), then all the other builders on the planet are way worse business than Kiesel then, because that's what they offer on literally all their builds. Not 10% like Kiesel, but 100%. The number of Jacksons received with poor finish, scratches and wonky dots- are they getting a full refund? No way. At best, if you're lucky you'll get a rebuild a year or two later, that might be just as problematic. Nobody else will entertain the thought of a full refund, especially not the dealers who will laugh at you if you try to get back your "non refundable" deposits. The Vader guy got exactly the guitar he ordered, and even the fix to get there "only" took weeks (annoying but hardly long in the guitar world). It's not like he got a totally wrong spec, or a broken guitar. Again, he got exactly the guitar he ordered, including fixes for the cosmetic stuff. You're just trying to hold Kiesel to an impossible standard that literally no other builder comes even close to, and using that to shit on them because you _think _you found _one _example among thousand of guitars....and even that example is flawed.

So you're still literally at 0 examples for your main point, while still pretending it's super common. How come? I love your supposed legal expertise too by the way "By law, if you purchase something..." etc etc.
You go ahead and try to refuse delivery and get a full refund on a scratched-from-the-factory (one of their specials) custom Jackson; including your "non refundable" deposits at the dealer, and see how well that goes  . By your logic most of the dealers and custom shop combos would be illegal then, because again, at best, you'll get a rebuild a couple of years later. So at best, your resolution is the same as those 10% of Kiesel instruments, except slower...while the 90% of Kiesel guitars have no-questions-asked returns with refund if you want. If not for your personal hate for them, why is that OK for Jackson on all instruments, but for Kiesel it is intolerable for a few?
Can you think of a traditional custom shop and dealer combo where you will be entitled to a full refund, including deposits if you're unhappy with the guitar or you're getting something wrong? And I mean _refund_, not rebuild- since it's now your latest example-less contention apparently. And if not, why not? Are you willing to hold them to the same standard as those 10% of Kiesels and say that they're bad business...or dare I say illegal...? Or is it just Kiesel which is against the law because...reasons?

Who are _*you *_trying to help by saying Kiesel should not allow customs anymore because of _*your *_singular shitty experience? You're denying a great value proposition that literally makes thousands of people happy for no other reason than you being personally slighted. Is that supposed to be a public service? I mean, your experience is a great cautionary tale of not ordering something enormously 0.001% custom... But going to "nobody is allowed to customize anything now" and you picking their business model is a pretty big leap .

As far as I'm concerned, I don't mind helping people by suggesting to them to at least _try _Kiesel. Unlike what you imply, they are literally 0 risk on 90% of stuff, and although not for everyone, they are great value if you're looking for something custom in the ~1.2k$ to 1.8k$ range. I don't mind either recommending a used Schecter for under 800 bucks or an Aristides for someone with 3k+ for something modern, I'm not fixated. I'll also specifically steer anyone _away _from Kiesel for super custom requests like yours.
But you're really the one with a single fixation that _nobody _should have the right to a custom Kiesel just because you said so after your poor experience with them. Why?


----------



## Jonathan20022

I didn't say they should be a production company because of my experience, I said.

"Kiesel needs to drop the custom shop moniker, and build production guitars because if they don't accept returns for products they fail to build correctly or mess up in any other fashion."

You act like I have any pull or power, it's an opinion  

And if I ordered a Jackson and wanted a refund because they messed up my specs, or it came damaged. All I need to do is document it, call my credit card/bank and if I'm being honest and can prove it. I can have my money back without any resistance, but you usually don't need to use your last resort option to make the person you bought a product from do or offer the right thing.

It doesn't fucking matter what the manufacturer offers in the way of a return or replacement policy. If they fail to deliver on the original agreements, US Law (Per state) dictates you are entitled to a full refund.

I'll turn your question on you, since you bring up Jackson a lot. Can you find any example of them not owning up to their mistake in full I'd love to find your concrete examples. Because you keep naming things like the 23 Fret Jackson, where the OP didn't come back. Considering people who are wronged will generally let everyone and their mother know, I can make a safe assumption that he did eventually get his guitar and his agreement was met.

By MY standards, I still think that's horseshit and he should have just taken it up with the dealer and gotten a refund.

But by your standards, if he eventually got a rebuild then he's 100% been made whole.

AFAIK there was no ending to that story, so if you want to ding Jackson for it, it's pretty hypocritical to do so.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I didn't say they should be a production company because of my experience, I said.
> 
> "Kiesel needs to drop the custom shop moniker, and build production guitars because if they don't accept returns for products they fail to build correctly or mess up in any other fashion."
> 
> You act like I have any pull or power, it's an opinion
> 
> And if I ordered a Jackson and wanted a refund because they messed up my specs, or it came damaged. All I need to do is document it, call my credit card/bank and if I'm being honest and can prove it. I can have my money back without any resistance, but you usually don't need to use your last resort option to make the person you bought a product from do or offer the right thing.
> 
> It doesn't fucking matter what the manufacturer offers in the way of a return or replacement policy. If they fail to deliver on the original agreements, US Law (Per state) dictates you are entitled to a full refund.
> 
> I'll turn your question on you, since you bring up Jackson a lot. Can you find any example of them not owning up to their mistake in full I'd love to find your concrete examples. Because you keep naming things like the 23 Fret Jackson, where the OP didn't come back. Considering people who are wronged will generally let everyone and their mother know, I can make a safe assumption that he did eventually get his guitar and his agreement was met.
> 
> By MY standards, I still think that's horseshit and he should have just taken it up with the dealer and gotten a refund.
> 
> But by your standards, if he eventually got a rebuild then he's 100% been made whole.
> 
> AFAIK there was no ending to that story, so if you want to ding Jackson for it, it's pretty hypocritical to do so.



Jesus if this reply isn't the pinnacle of hypocrisy and double standards:

"I didn't say they should change their business model, I just gave my opinion they should change their business model". Wow what a distinction.

It's fine if other companies only offer rebuilds- we like them. But because _reasons _Kiesel _has _to offer returns and refunds, not only on 90% of their stuff as advertised (which nobody else does), but actually on _everything_, even specifically non-returnable stuff. Because we don't like them. Crazy how that works, huh?

"I'm fine doing a chargeback on my credit card for a custom Jackson" (as if it's standard practice and it would even work 2 years later for your non refundable deposit...you're dreaming), but getting a refund agreed upon with Jeff (as highlighted in the messages you shared yourself) without having to go through that hostile process in your case is unacceptable. Nice double standards!

The first Jackson shop story I read ever on metal guitarist was of the unfixable out-of-alignment-neck dinky (I linked it earlier in this thread). Jackson and dealer refused to do anything about it and actually blacklisted the customer. This was around 2013, so even before Kiesel even existed. The 23 frets Kelly is the most well known one, and a nice example of your hypocrisy. The owner was not offered a full refund, was he? And we don't see you bashing Jackson everywhere. You are anyway _assuming _he was made whole (again, because _reasons_, we can assume the best for Jackson, but the worst for Kiesel, right?), but we just don't know. We _do know_ he was promised a 3-months rebuild, then a 6 months one, and yet a year later, it was still not there. Is that your example of great service? Even if it was rebuilt, that time and lies are poor customer service. And yet you think the guy who we absolutely _do know about _from your flawed example, who got an _immediate _refinish on his as-ordered Vader is unacceptable? And that's far from unique, the recent SL example with same moving promises for a rebuild is similar. Or the natural one which looked like it was finished with raw steel wool? None of those cases could have even dreamed of a refund. But whatever, at the end of the day, I don't really care about Jackson. I just use them as example and counterpoint because it's the one people often bring up as "so much better than Kiesel" ... and to me it makes zero sense. If people stop bringing it up, I'll stop too. Just funny however how we can "make safe assumptions" in _favor _of Jackson, cut them all the slack, excuse everything, but something way less egregious at Kiesel (oh noooo! they _immediately _refinished the guitar and sent the guitar back exactly as ordered, the horror!) is unacceptable in your eyes. No consistency _whatsoever_.
Don't try (_again_) to misrepresent and distort my words or standards by the way. Funny how you _looove _to do that to others while you play the victim when not quoted verbatim.

In my book, a 23-fret Kelly should entitle you to a full refund. Just like a 23-fret Aries. Just like a 23-fret Modern or Angel. Those are not regular cases, those are egregious. Less egregious stuff, what most of the industry is offering is rebuilds. I think that's fair when ordering something custom/bespoke. We'd all like to be able to get refunds on everything, but when custom work is involved, that's not always possible. If you get something that's not built right, most serious people in the industry would address it that way with a rebuild- usually with no change in specs, usually taking _much _longer, with just a few exceptions going above and beyond (like maybe Anderson/Suhr/Aristides allowing you to even change a few things)- but rarely if ever a refund. Kiesel offers something unique on 90% of their builds, which is returning something custom no questions asked for a full refund. And for the 10% of exceptions, anything truly wrong with the instrument *will* be addressed one way or another- should I say often with more flexibility than most other builders as well (rebuild identical, fast refinish, rebuild of a different instrument, credit or partial refund for something cosmetic if you like the guitar, or even full refund...). Will they have customer service lapses along the way? Sometimes yeah, and everyone agrees they can improve there. Will they refuse to return something super custom for purely subjective cosmetic reasons? Yep that can happen. But again, those are exception cases, far far from the rule.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I made the safe assumption about Jackson because customers will complain about being wronged vs update when they're made whole.

In recent memory, of the two brands only one of them has denied reasonable refund requests and then publicly trash talked their client and mocked them 

We don't have the resolution of the 23 Fret Jackson, but we do have complete concrete documented experiences of wronged Kiesel owners. Pretty stark difference, I give Jackson the leeway because you have nothing to prove that those clients didn't receive their guitars in the end.


I didn't bash Jackson about your dinky example because I didn't know about it. *Fuck Jackson*, the 2 year wait time and QC I've seen out of them is already enough of a detriment to me ordering one in the first place. Happy? 

Also *Fuck Kiesel* for the exact same behaviors, and exceedingly worse, continuing to behave that way after being called out on it well into early 2020.
I don't care what brand it is, there are consumer protection laws that sit above any respective brand's completely flimsy and predatory return policies. You are eligible to a refund wether it be via Chargeback, or taking them to small claims court for not delivering on an agreed upon product.
Most people don't need to go through those channels. I ended up returning my Shell Pink Custom Suhr Classic 2 years ago because of a neck that buzzed pretty wildly with a standard setup and two visits back to the Suhr Factory. I was offered a rebuild or a refund, and because there was more than just the neck to complain about, I elected to get a refund and they did it hassle free. 

While that Suhr had issues on delivery, I gave them the same warranty opportunity to repair it and unfortunately it came up short. What I didn't get was weird attempts to charge me in order to fix the problems, nor did I get the runaround, nor did I get John Suhr on the phone giving me shit about returning the guitar. Part of the reason I wanted the return and not the rebuild with Kiesel was for being treated so poorly at the tail end of the interaction 
It's funny that what-about-ism seems to be the default when you point out how predatory Kiesel can be. It's not okay when any business strong arms people into keeping things after failing their part of the deal.


----------



## Jeff

In this thread, Jonathan argues with himself.  
(I’m guessing you’re arguing with the resident Kiesel cheerleader).


----------



## Jonathan20022

Jeff said:


> In this thread, Jonathan argues with himself.
> (I’m guessing you’re arguing with the resident Kiesel cheerleader).





Not much has changed, that's for sure.


----------



## Seabeast2000

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Jesus can we stop the childish bickering mbardu and jonathan20022.
> Take it to PM. No one cares about your beef.
> 
> We only eat BBQ pork/chicken/ other meat substitutes


Hey, this thread is 7/8 of a law degree.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I made the safe assumption about Jackson because customers will complain about being wronged vs update when they're made whole.
> 
> In recent memory, of the two brands only one of them has denied reasonable refund requests and then publicly trash talked their client and mocked them
> 
> We don't have the resolution of the 23 Fret Jackson, but we do have complete concrete documented experiences of wronged Kiesel owners. Pretty stark difference, I give Jackson the leeway because you have nothing to prove that those clients didn't receive their guitars in the end.
> 
> 
> I didn't bash Jackson about your dinky example because I didn't know about it. *Fuck Jackson*, the 2 year wait time and QC I've seen out of them is already enough of a detriment to me ordering one in the first place. Happy?
> 
> Also *Fuck Kiesel* for the exact same behaviors, and exceedingly worse, continuing to behave that way after being called out on it well into early 2020.
> I don't care what brand it is, there are consumer protection laws that sit above any respective brand's completely flimsy and predatory return policies. You are eligible to a refund wether it be via Chargeback, or taking them to small claims court for not delivering on an agreed upon product.
> Most people don't need to go through those channels. I ended up returning my Shell Pink Custom Suhr Classic 2 years ago because of a neck that buzzed pretty wildly with a standard setup and two visits back to the Suhr Factory. I was offered a rebuild or a refund, and because there was more than just the neck to complain about, I elected to get a refund and they did it hassle free.
> 
> While that Suhr had issues on delivery, I gave them the same warranty opportunity to repair it and unfortunately it came up short. What I didn't get was weird attempts to charge me in order to fix the problems, nor did I get the runaround, nor did I get John Suhr on the phone giving me shit about returning the guitar. Part of the reason I wanted the return and not the rebuild with Kiesel was for being treated so poorly at the tail end of the interaction
> It's funny that what-about-ism seems to be the default when you point out how predatory Kiesel can be. It's not okay when any business strong arms people into keeping things after failing their part of the deal.



What is this about "only one of them has denied reasonable refund requests"? Your two Kiesel/Carvin examples (that you had to search here and in Google and that you hold on to for failing to find others despite them being flawed) are neither particularly recent, nor actual examples of wrongs for that matter. Or please feel to explain why, because we got a guy who got exactly what he ordered and immediate fix on the cosmetic front (with fixes at Kiesel's expense), and a guy who accepted a credit towards another guitar and loved the guitar he had actually received. Are those seriously egregious wrongs on Kiesel's part?

BTW, it's not whataboutism to reply "no Actually Jackson can actually be pretty bad" when someone says "Kiesel is crap, Jackson is much better". I didn't bring Jackson into the discussion as a clutch. Again, intellectual dishonesty from you, but that's par for the course. And when you specifically ask me about Jackson examples, it's not whataboutism to reply. I really wouldn't be the one bringing them into the conversation. It's not whataboutism either to point out that non-refundable deposits are extremely common in the industry, and that the norm is rebuild, not refunds. Kiesel is extremely rare in offering the possibility of no-questions-asked return on the large majority of their instruments. How is that whataboutism? Are we just throwing words around until something sticks?

As for Suhr, yep. Just like Aristides or Anderson, they are super consistent in customer experience and I'll easily recommend them to anyone with 3/4k if you like their models. Their service is also definitely better than Kiesel on average- probably the best, so as usual, what's you point? You're fighting against points that nobody even made and working yourself up against something that nobody has said.


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## Jonathan20022

I think I've invested enough words per hour into this debate.

Kiesel had to refinish a guitar because it was delivered with scratches, eligible for a full refund by law.
Kiesel offered BBS bro a credit on a future order (LMAO), because they changed his agreed on specs, also eligible for a full refund by law.

The what-about-ism is referred to from your quote, 2nd paragraph in the link.

"Nobody else will entertain the thought of a full refund, especially not the dealers who will laugh at you if you try to get back your "non refundable" deposits."

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-206#post-5213477

In regards to "my point" in bringing up Suhr, is that other dealers/builders will honor refunds when it's a mistake on their end. You saying no one will is dishonest, and *actually *intellectually dishonest.


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## Hoss632

mbardu said:


> What is this about "only one of them has denied reasonable refund requests"? Your two Kiesel/Carvin examples (that you had to search here and in Google and that you hold on to for failing to find others despite them being flawed) are neither particularly recent, nor actual examples of wrongs for that matter. Or please feel to explain why, because we got a guy who got exactly what he ordered and immediate fix on the cosmetic front (with fixes at Kiesel's expense), and a guy who accepted a credit towards another guitar and loved the guitar he had actually received. Are those seriously egregious wrongs on Kiesel's part?
> 
> BTW, it's not whataboutism to reply "no Actually Jackson can actually be pretty bad" when someone says "Kiesel is crap, Jackson is much better". I didn't bring Jackson into the discussion as a clutch. Again, intellectual dishonesty from you, but that's par for the course. And when you specifically ask me about Jackson examples, it's not whataboutism to reply. I really wouldn't be the one bringing them into the conversation. It's not whataboutism either to point out that non-refundable deposits are extremely common in the industry, and that the norm is rebuild, not refunds. Kiesel is extremely rare in offering the possibility of no-questions-asked return on the large majority of their instruments. How is that whataboutism? Are we just throwing words around until something sticks?
> 
> As for Suhr, yep. Just like Aristides or Anderson, they are super consistent in customer experience and I'll easily recommend them to anyone with 3/4k if you like their models. Their service is also definitely better than Kiesel on average- probably the best, so as usual, what's you point? You're fighting against points that nobody even made and working yourself up against something that nobody has said.


This seems to be one of those no matter how much fact you seem to give out, those who dislike Kiesel dislike them with a passion and are not willing to see anything to the contrary.
I've read through this thread here and there and some of the responses in here are idiotic to the point they are comical (not you replies obviously). I get that Jeff has said dumb shit and is an acquired taste in ways. And I get that they've made mistakes, every company has, especially in the guitar industry. Still Kiesel is a quality product and a bargain compared to other high end american guitar makers price wise and wait time wise. I certainly think that Suhr and Anderson and even USA PRS are higher quality instruments. Anderson may be the best I've ever seen of any guitar maker honestly. But I can still appreciate what Kiesel offers, especially for someone like me who cannot spend 4-5k on an Anderson.


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## ArtDecade

Seabeast2000 said:


> Hey, this thread is 7/8 of a law degree.



It really goes to show the importance of that last 1/8...


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## cip 123

Also the 23 fret Kelly got fixed, the extra fret just ended up on this - 

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-jackson-b7-satin-black-with-an-extra-fret-d.291095/


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## Matt08642

I don't have a horse in this race, but I just can't accept Kiesel's gross-ass headstock designs. Yuck!


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## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I think I've invested enough words per hour into this debate.
> 
> Kiesel had to refinish a guitar because it was delivered with scratches, eligible for a full refund by law.
> Kiesel offered BBS bro a credit on a future order (LMAO), because they changed his agreed on specs, also eligible for a full refund by law.
> 
> The what-about-ism is referred to from your quote, 2nd paragraph in the link.
> 
> "Nobody else will entertain the thought of a full refund, especially not the dealers who will laugh at you if you try to get back your "non refundable" deposits."
> 
> nhttps://www.sevenstring.org/threads/kiesel-never-again.320132/page-206#post-5213477
> 
> In regards to "my point" in bringing up Suhr, is that other dealers/builders will honor refunds when it's a mistake on their end. You saying no one will is dishonest, and *actually *intellectually dishonest.



I won't talk about SH guy after this, because the guy was _happy _with the solution, and you're the only one still trying to really hold on to painting him as being abused by Carvin- just because _you _were not treated well in _your _case. It's really a testament to the quantity/quality of your supposedly _plentiful _examples that you're holding on so dearly to that one specifically- where the buyer didn't even have an issue with it himself, and which btw is so old that the company wasn't even called Kiesel at that point.

As for the Vader with the unique option-50 nut option, Kiesel refinished the guitar immediately on the spot when it had cosmetic issues upon delivery and the buyer got exactly what they ordered, so on what grounds would he have been entitled to a refund? An immediate fix there was more than reasonable, and I can't think of other manufacturers (certainly not the majority) who would offer you a better resolution, especially considering that it was refinished _extremely quickly_. Kiesel basically offered the industry standard, except much faster than anyone else. If he were to push a refund, it would be 100% a "change of mind" or "buyer's remorse" case, because he got exactly what he ordered, and in a timely manner. His guitar didn't have any structural or functional issues. He had cosmetic concerns that slipped through the QC cracks, and that they took on with an immediate solution at their cost. His only argument was "I don't want it anymore" after having Kiesel build him something that he knew was non-standard.
And you know the kicker?
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/extremely-unhappy-with-kiesel.308669/page-3#post-4550927
Even though it was buyer's remorse, even though he got exactly what he ordered, even though he had willingly ordered something non-refundable.....he still got a refund 

As for your "intellectually dishonesty", it's a rich case of pot calling the kettle black, especially following your last few posts. It's 100% dishonest to strip away all context to try and distort a saying like you're doing. Good thing you linked the whole post because if you actually read through, you'll see that it means "nobody will entertain a full refund on a non refundable guitar_ for cosmetic things like a couple scratches_". Nobody will entertain refunds for _buyer's remorse_ on non-refundable things either btw. But if that was not clear enough for your, I even pre-emptively clarify after (explicitly and literally) that for egregious things that cannot be fixed, people should get refunds. Like the egregious 23-frets Kelly. Or your Suhr.

First of all, sounds like the worst Suhr I've ever heard about, if the neck cannot be fixed after not one but _two _services, and it still has _other issues_ after that. But if you got a refund in that scenario, it was because you had an unplayable buzzy guitar that just couldn't be fixed. Try buying a custom guitar, even from Suhr and tell them and your dealer "You know what guys? You built my guitar, addressed all my issues, but I just don't want it anymore, please give me my money back" and see what you get. Not just Suhr, ask any other builders, especially smaller ones to refund you all your money after they get you exactly what you ordered (like what Vader guy got - exactly what he ordered) and see. Your double standards are more apparent than ever here btw. You got a functionally flawed guitar from Suhr, so you gave them the opportunity to fix it (not once, but twice), they were not able to do it plus the guitar had other issues - and you sing their praise. Vader guy got a functionally good guitar with cosmetic issues that were addressed on the spot, yet changed his mind afterwards and _still got a refund_ - you shit on Kiesel. What kind of hypocrisy is that?

Again- We're talking literally "change of mind" or buyer's remorse here, and it's literally the type of thing that is _not _a reason to return for bespoke/custom items. First, _legally _in most places: if you had bespoke work done in good faith and got what you asked for, you don't just get your money back. And morally as well, because you had someone invest his time, resources and effort to build you something unique with costs that he may not be able to recoup if you change your mind. And yes, that squarely includes the opportunity for the builder to make things right, like immediately fixing the cosmetic issues for the Vader. Oh but I forgot, what are morals right? Apparently your solution to buyer's remorse or having to wait a bit for a fix should just be "*aggressive chargeback*" and the builder can just deal with it  . And you wonder why people even have "non refundable deposits / all orders final " policies in the first place when that's the attitude from some buyers...

The day you have a contractor build you custom cabinets for your kitchen in an awkward and unique shape, and they don't see some scratches upon delivery, are you going to tell them you don't want them anymore and they can just keep them while you charge back your payments? Even though the cabinets have been installed, work perfect, and they have now sanded and polished out the scratches to perfection? Even though the contractor is out their materials and their time and effort? Is that the world you live in? Because that's pretty much what you would like the situation to be for the Vader guy. And the funniest thing is that Kiesel _still_ took the cabinets back and gave a refund, and you _still_ shit on them 

Again, keeping aside customer service experience which can be bad, then _at the very worse_ Kiesel applies the industry standard in their practices. And it's their _bare minimum_, because in the large majority of cases the options and outcomes are _better _than the industry standard. On 90% of their guitars, you can return/refund, no questions asked. When you are in the 10% of non-returnable cases, they are still going to offer you options that include the typical fix/refinish/repair/rebuild. And even after the fixes, it turns out that apparently they'll _still _allow you to get a refund, even for buyer's remorse cases like Vader guy. With your problematic build with them, you were not even in those 10%. You were in the 1% of 1% of custom over custom double order. And your situation was one of the most frustrating ones. And yet even you got a polite refund from Jeff in the end.
After all this text, you still have literally 0 example showing otherwise


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## mbardu

cip 123 said:


> Also the 23 fret Kelly got fixed, the extra fret just ended up on this -
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-jackson-b7-satin-black-with-an-extra-fret-d.291095/



Oh wow I had never seen this one 
What is it with Jackson and not being able to count frets


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## mbardu

Hoss632 said:


> This seems to be one of those no matter how much fact you seem to give out, those who dislike Kiesel dislike them with a passion and are not willing to see anything to the contrary.
> I've read through this thread here and there and some of the responses in here are idiotic to the point they are comical (not you replies obviously). I get that Jeff has said dumb shit and is an acquired taste in ways. And I get that they've made mistakes, every company has, especially in the guitar industry. Still Kiesel is a quality product and a bargain compared to other high end american guitar makers price wise and wait time wise. I certainly think that Suhr and Anderson and even USA PRS are higher quality instruments. Anderson may be the best I've ever seen of any guitar maker honestly. But I can still appreciate what Kiesel offers, especially for someone like me who cannot spend 4-5k on an Anderson.



Agreed. I'll go as far as saying that kiesel has made_ a lot_ of mistakes, and had a lot of very visible and ridiculous public issues. There's no denying that. Plus documented problems in both customer service, and _the experience_ of customer service (people not feeling they're treated well). Also understand 100% people not willing to do business with the company because they don't like Jeff Kiesel.

But for some reason that's not enough to hate on, so a lot of discussion is imagined/made-up issues or just hypocritical takes and double standards galore.

I'll second something like Anderson in the "will be absolutely phenomenal every single time if you have the money". Never touched one that was less than amazing, they're so consistent. But the fact that some great Carvin/Kiesels can even touch them (like, on things like fretwork Kiesel has become indistinguishable from the very best nowadays) at their price point, and with their diverse choices is amazing. Like, unfortunately, Anderson cannot build me a 7-string neck-through headless with a piezo (not that I would be able to afford it new anyway  ). Sure, maybe the quality may fluctuate a bit more (although even Suhr can have necks that are unfixable after 2 tries apparently...), say from just pretty good to amazing. But then the mere fact that you're able to try different things and return them until you get that amazing combination is also pretty unique. I have no idea why people hate on that, just because there are _some _documented options that you cannot just return on a whim...


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## Jonathan20022

Imagine twisting a situation where a customer received a scratched guitar, and did NOT want it repaired/refinished because he paid for a *new *instrument to be built without issues the first time. And then call it buyers remorse 

They did exactly what I accuse them of, illegally using Option 50 as a means to deny refunds.




That's where the chargebacks come in, if you are being denied something within your rights, then you go. Chargebacks are also only LAST RESORT option when the manufacturer chooses not to be fair to the customer, legally not building what was agreed on/damaging it/or sending defective goods legally entitles you to a refund.


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## RevelGTR

Even as someone who likes Kiesel, I definitely think they demonstrate uniquely bad customer service at times. A brand like Jackson is basically faceless, and when they screw up you usually have the dealer as an intermediary.

But when Kiesel shipped that RIDICULOUS mismatched neck and fretboard, to a 29 time previous customer, he was PUBLICLY HUMILIATED by the VP and face of the company. So in that guys case getting a neck rebuilt involved a public tar and feathering by the VP of the company. 

Jeff is uniquely bad among mainstream guitar brands, I don’t think I’ve seen one other example of the head of a mainstream guitar brand behaving that way. And to top at all off, after all of that plus several tantrums, all it took was a teary apology and a new policy of treating roasted neck and fretboard matching the same way EVERYONE ELSE including Harley Benton does for the fanboys to declare Jeff a “game changer.” Again, I like Kiesel, but it’s easy to see why they rub people the wrong way.


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## JSanta

RevelGTR said:


> Even as someone who likes Kiesel, I definitely think they demonstrate uniquely bad customer service at times. A brand like Jackson is basically faceless, and when they screw up you usually have the dealer as an intermediary.
> 
> But when Kiesel shipped that RIDICULOUS mismatched neck and fretboard, to a 29 time previous customer, he was PUBLICLY HUMILIATED by the VP and face of the company. So in that guys case getting a neck rebuilt involved a public tar and feathering by the VP of the company.
> 
> Jeff is uniquely bad among mainstream guitar brands, I don’t think I’ve seen one other example of the head of a mainstream guitar brand behaving that way. And to top at all off, after all of that plus several tantrums, all it took was a teary apology and a new policy of treating roasted neck and fretboard matching the same way EVERYONE ELSE including Harley Benton does for the fanboys to declare Jeff a “game changer.” Again, I like Kiesel, but it’s easy to see why they rub people the wrong way.



This has been my problem since Jeff became the face of the company. His cult of personality and just general demeanor has completely put me off the brand, even though they tend to make very well-built instruments. The toxic "bro" mentality needs to be stopped.


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## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Imagine twisting a situation where a customer received a scratched guitar, and did NOT want it repaired/refinished because he paid for a *new *instrument to be built without issues the first time. And then call it buyers remorse
> 
> They did exactly what I accuse them of, illegally using Option 50 as a means to deny refunds.
> 
> View attachment 87797
> 
> 
> That's where the chargebacks come in, if you are being denied something within your rights, then you go. Chargebacks are also only LAST RESORT option when the manufacturer chooses not to be fair to the customer, legally not building what was agreed on/damaging it/or sending defective goods legally entitles you to a refund.



Imagine having so few arguments or examples that you pivot once again to some brand new BS instead of answering anything, and think you're actually making any sense.

The guy paid for a new guitar and got a new guitar. What is that all about? He didn't get a second hand guitar or a floor model or a return. It also had scratches upon delivery, yep that happens. Those were fixed as quickly as possible. I doubt there's a single builder out there who hasn't delivered a single guitar with a scratch on it upon delivery, but if there is, they surely are the exception and it is bound to happen sooner or later. It happened to me on waaayyy more expensive than Kiesel, and you don't see me bashing the builder as a result. I don't go online and pretend it was not a new guitar anymore because it had a scratch from the factory. Contrary to what you think, scratches, especially if immediately adressed hardly qualify as "not building what was agreed on" or "delivering something defective". Far, _far _from it. Things happen, and it's hardly a big problem if some scratches are fixed. Or if it's a problem in your opinion, then you have to disqualify _all the other builders too_, not just Kiesel. But you won't because of..._reasons_... Yet a way more expensive Suhr guitar is literally unplayable upon delivery, and even after trying twice to fix it - plus it has other undisclosed issues (your example, not mine) and....somehow they're so much better? I think we need a new expression above double standards because it just doesn't cut it at this point.
Not to mention that Vader guy _even got a refund anyway _.

I _really _don't wish anyone to do custom work for you in the future. It sounds like you'd have absolutely no qualms in walking away from them at completion time, wasting their expertise and time, plus deny their efforts and materials investment in building something bespoke for you, even after they made it 100% right and 100% as ordered by you. All that because you managed to find a "gotcha" scratch that they even fix right away. As mentioned, that's both legally and morally wrong, but you do you.
This is just literally the nightmare customer for someone doing custom/bespoke work. Invest time, effort and material, fix everything, deliver as per order - and the customer still does an aggressive refund or chargeback on something bespoke that won't serve anyone else.
But even then, even in the last example you're still trying to hold on to, even though it was literally buyer's remorse / change of mind (getting exactly what you ordered, and yet still wanting to send it back for a refund)... did I mention that Kiesel took the L and _still refunded the guy anyway ?_



JSanta said:


> This has been my problem since Jeff became the face of the company. His cult of personality and just general demeanor has completely put me off the brand, even though they tend to make very well-built instruments. The toxic "bro" mentality needs to be stopped.



Agreed 100%, and I miss the good-ole Carvin days there... and sadly it doesn't look like they have much incentive to change because the business seems to be going great with record orders...


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## MSS

I pulled the trigger and ordered another Vader 7. I did the same last year during the Black Friday sale and got a stunning instrument. Mine was “not returnable” because I got a poplar top but it was/is pretty darn perfect.


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## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Imagine having so few arguments or examples that you pivot once again to some brand new BS instead of answering anything, and think you're actually making any sense.
> 
> The guy paid for a new guitar and got a new guitar. What is that all about? He didn't get a second hand guitar or a floor model or a return. It also had scratches upon delivery, yep that happens. Those were fixed as quickly as possible. I doubt there's a single builder out there who hasn't delivered a single guitar with a scratch on it upon delivery, but if there is, they surely are the exception and it is bound to happen sooner or later. It happened to me on waaayyy more expensive than Kiesel, and you don't see me bashing the builder as a result. I don't go online and pretend it was not a new guitar anymore because it had a scratch from the factory. Contrary to what you think, scratches, especially if immediately adressed hardly qualify as "not building what was agreed on" or "delivering something defective". Far, _far _from it. Things happen, and it's hardly a big problem if some scratches are fixed. Or if it's a problem in your opinion, then you have to disqualify _all the other builders too_, not just Kiesel. But you won't because of..._reasons_... Yet a way more expensive Suhr guitar is literally unplayable upon delivery, and even after trying twice to fix it - plus it has other undisclosed issues (your example, not mine) and....somehow they're so much better? I think we need a new expression above double standards because it just doesn't cut it at this point.
> Not to mention that Vader guy _even got a refund anyway _.
> 
> I _really _don't wish anyone to do custom work for you in the future. It sounds like you'd have absolutely no qualms in walking away from them at completion time, wasting their expertise and time, plus deny their efforts and materials investment in building something bespoke for you, even after they made it 100% right and 100% as ordered by you. All that because you managed to find a "gotcha" scratch that they even fix right away. As mentioned, that's both legally and morally wrong, but you do you.
> This is just literally the nightmare customer for someone doing custom/bespoke work. Invest time, effort and material, fix everything, deliver as per order - and the customer still does an aggressive refund or chargeback on something bespoke that won't serve anyone else.
> But even then, even in the last example you're still trying to hold on to, even though it was literally buyer's remorse / change of mind (getting exactly what you ordered, and yet still wanting to send it back for a refund)... did I mention that Kiesel took the L and _still refunded the guy anyway ?_
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed 100%, and I miss the good-ole Carvin days there... and sadly it doesn't look like they have much incentive to change because the business seems to be going great with record orders...



He didn't receive a new guitar, it had imperfections, aka - defective. It doesn't matter if he got a refund in the end, he was obstructed of one upfront.

It's so weird that you don't seem to get this, Kiesel eventually making it right doesn't change the fact that they tried to prevent a refund by enforcing an unenforceable policy.

It's actually wild to me that you have such a large tolerance for defects on your expensive instruments. The more I spend, the more I'll nitpick. Because I value my time and money, and unlike you represent me I give every manufacturer the opportunity to fix an issue and make it right. The same opportunity I gave Kiesel which they fucked up 

And I'm glad you brought up scratches, because shipping damage is a very different thing. And usually predictably pretty easily identifiable and catastrophic.

Shipping damage due to improper packing of an instrument, manufacturer's fault.
Shipping damage due to improper handling of a package, carrier's fault.
In the case of "scratches", unless your guitar is going through customs and the moron checking your package makes a slip up. There's practically zero opportunity for scratches to develop in transit. So if the manufacturer built an instrument, *inspected it*, and still sent it out with scratches. It is no longer a new instrument, it should not be sold as such and the manufacturer should offer both the options of a warranty repair OR a refund/replacement.

But it should be up to the fucking buyer, and in the Vader's case. Homeboy wanted a full refund from the get go, which he was denied unfairly. I don't give a single shit if scratches don't cross your severity threshold. He was in his right and wanted a refund, *he was entitled to it by law*. 

And you bring up my Suhr Classic? Which cost me 1k less than the K Series I owned? Why are you assuming the cost of these instruments if you have no fucking clue what you're talking about?



> I _really _don't wish anyone to do custom work for you in the future. It sounds like you'd have absolutely no qualms in walking away from them at completion time, wasting their expertise and time, plus deny their efforts and materials investment in building something bespoke for you, even after they made it 100% right and 100% as ordered by you. All that because you managed to find a "gotcha" scratch that they even fix right away. As mentioned, that's both legally and morally wrong, but you do you.



You know they literally didn't build my guitar with several specs I requested  In what way did Kiesel build me anything "100%" how I ordered LOL.

Wrong Neck Laminates, even though both guitars were meant to be twin builds other than the top.
Wrong finish applied to the guitar.
Missing the matching redwood backplate I ordered.
Vertical indentation across several frets, requiring warranty fretwork. 

Upon repair, dings in the neck of the guitar that couldn't be fixed without sanding down the neck profile.
Scratches and scuffs in the gloss of the guitar.
How the hell is that 100%? I wasn't even offered a rebuild until I pushed for anything other than a warranty repair. And at that point after waiting until the new year, I pushed for my refund because I was sick and tired of getting jerked around.

This is pretty cowardly and dishonest right here, I've worked with 8 brands and been a repeat customer with 6 of those 8 with custom instruments. Why are you making it look like I'd find a micro-scratch and try to screw a builder unfairly out of the build without giving them a chance to make it right?  For someone who screams nuance at every opportunity you seem to have fairly low bar for it since all I'm stating are consumer rights laws.


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## Hoss632

Jonathan20022 said:


> He didn't receive a new guitar, it had imperfections, aka - defective. It doesn't matter if he got a refund in the end, he was obstructed of one upfront.
> 
> It's so weird that you don't seem to get this, Kiesel eventually making it right doesn't change the fact that they tried to prevent a refund by enforcing an unenforceable policy.
> 
> It's actually wild to me that you have such a large tolerance for defects on your expensive instruments. The more I spend, the more I'll nitpick. Because I value my time and money, and unlike you represent me I give every manufacturer the opportunity to fix an issue and make it right. The same opportunity I gave Kiesel which they fucked up
> 
> And I'm glad you brought up scratches, because shipping damage is a very different thing. And usually predictably pretty easily identifiable and catastrophic.
> 
> Shipping damage due to improper packing of an instrument, manufacturer's fault.
> Shipping damage due to improper handling of a package, carrier's fault.
> In the case of "scratches", unless your guitar is going through customs and the moron checking your package makes a slip up. There's practically zero opportunity for scratches to develop in transit. So if the manufacturer built an instrument, *inspected it*, and still sent it out with scratches. It is no longer a new instrument, it should not be sold as such and the manufacturer should offer both the options of a warranty repair OR a refund/replacement.
> 
> But it should be up to the fucking buyer, and in the Vader's case. Homeboy wanted a full refund from the get go, which he was denied unfairly. I don't give a single shit if scratches don't cross your severity threshold. He was in his right and wanted a refund, *he was entitled to it by law*.
> 
> And you bring up my Suhr Classic? Which cost me 1k less than the K Series I owned? Why are you assuming the cost of these instruments if you have no fucking clue what you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> You know they literally didn't build my guitar with several specs I requested  In what way did Kiesel build me anything "100%" how I ordered LOL.
> 
> Wrong Neck Laminates, even though both guitars were meant to be twin builds other than the top.
> Wrong finish applied to the guitar.
> Missing the matching redwood backplate I ordered.
> Vertical indentation across several frets, requiring warranty fretwork.
> 
> Upon repair, dings in the neck of the guitar that couldn't be fixed without sanding down the neck profile.
> Scratches and scuffs in the gloss of the guitar.
> How the hell is that 100%? I wasn't even offered a rebuild until I pushed for anything other than a warranty repair. And at that point after waiting until the new year, I pushed for my refund because I was sick and tired of getting jerked around.
> 
> This is pretty cowardly and dishonest right here, I've worked with 8 brands and been a repeat customer with 6 of those 8 with custom instruments. Why are you making it look like I'd find a micro-scratch and try to screw a builder unfairly out of the build without giving them a chance to make it right?  For someone who screams nuance at every opportunity you seem to have fairly low bar for it since all I'm stating are consumer rights laws.


For fuck sake dude give it a rest. You don't like Kiesel. We get it. Move along and go sing the praises of the brands that you do like.


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## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> He didn't receive a new guitar, it had imperfections, aka - defective. It doesn't matter if he got a refund in the end, he was obstructed of one upfront.
> 
> It's so weird that you don't seem to get this, Kiesel eventually making it right doesn't change the fact that they tried to prevent a refund by enforcing an unenforceable policy.
> 
> It's actually wild to me that you have such a large tolerance for defects on your expensive instruments. The more I spend, the more I'll nitpick. Because I value my time and money, and unlike you represent me I give every manufacturer the opportunity to fix an issue and make it right. The same opportunity I gave Kiesel which they fucked up
> 
> And I'm glad you brought up scratches, because shipping damage is a very different thing. And usually predictably pretty easily identifiable and catastrophic.
> 
> Shipping damage due to improper packing of an instrument, manufacturer's fault.
> Shipping damage due to improper handling of a package, carrier's fault.
> In the case of "scratches", unless your guitar is going through customs and the moron checking your package makes a slip up. There's practically zero opportunity for scratches to develop in transit. So if the manufacturer built an instrument, *inspected it*, and still sent it out with scratches. It is no longer a new instrument, it should not be sold as such and the manufacturer should offer both the options of a warranty repair OR a refund/replacement.
> 
> But it should be up to the fucking buyer, and in the Vader's case. Homeboy wanted a full refund from the get go, which he was denied unfairly. I don't give a single shit if scratches don't cross your severity threshold. He was in his right and wanted a refund, *he was entitled to it by law*.
> 
> And you bring up my Suhr Classic? Which cost me 1k less than the K Series I owned? Why are you assuming the cost of these instruments if you have no fucking clue what you're talking about?



OK so as usual you bring up tons of absolutely unrelated stuff in the form of shipping damages and whatever. Nobody talks about that and it has 0 relevance. Nobody talked about transit. Seriously what? Why don't you stop the strawman arguments at least_ for once_  . Why don't you reply on an actual point _for once_? All because you cannot find a single good example? Can we leave shipping aside now? OK?

Now, to your point. So something with a scratch not caught in QA means it's no longer new now? Talk about a stretch .
The point above is simple: I doubt you could find a single manufacturer who hasn't had a guitar slip through the cracks with something minor like some scratches slipping past QA. To wit, even your Suhr (epitome of QA and consistency) passed QA despite a broken unfixable necks and 2 other undisclosed issues...so that's a little bit more egregious than a few scratches when talking about an instrument. Yet, you got it _new _and you considered it new. Just like the owner of the Vader got his guitar new. You should really check the definition of new in a dictionary because you clearly don't get it, or else it just means that you've dropped all pretense and are just being 100% disingenuous now.

Hint: "new" usually goes by something like "newly created not existing before", not "newly created not existing before- _except for Kiesel where it's not new if it has a couple of scratches that went past QA - but Suhr and others can have issues though they're good it's just Kiesel that we hate specifically screw them_". I know it can be tricky and the two definition can _seem _the same to some people, but the latter is _actually _the entry for "new when I'm being a hypocrite and only holding Kiesel to impossible made-up standards while all other brands get a pass". I doesn't help that the two are right next to each other in the dictionary, I'll give you that. But the more you know !

So for all intents and purposes Vader guy got a new guitar (again...unless you want to change the meaning of the word _just for Kiesel_ - wouldn't surprise me with your double standards), with cosmetic issues addressed right away, and 100% matching his order. So no basis for a refund, nobody else would have offered him a refund -and yet he got it fixed, and yet he was still able to get a refund. Doh!

PS: I didn't "bring up" your Suhr classic (how would I have known about this guitar lmao), like I didn't bring up Jackson earlier. _You _brought it up so it's a bit rich to complain now that I reply and the arguments actually go against you 



Jonathan20022 said:


> You know they literally didn't build my guitar with several specs I requested  In what way did Kiesel build me anything "100%" how I ordered LOL.
> 
> Wrong Neck Laminates, even though both guitars were meant to be twin builds other than the top.
> Wrong finish applied to the guitar.
> Missing the matching redwood backplate I ordered.
> Vertical indentation across several frets, requiring warranty fretwork.
> 
> Upon repair, dings in the neck of the guitar that couldn't be fixed without sanding down the neck profile.
> Scratches and scuffs in the gloss of the guitar.
> How the hell is that 100%? I wasn't even offered a rebuild until I pushed for anything other than a warranty repair. And at that point after waiting until the new year, I pushed for my refund because I was sick and tired of getting jerked around.
> 
> This is pretty cowardly and dishonest right here, I've worked with 8 brands and been a repeat customer with 6 of those 8 with custom instruments. Why are you making it look like I'd find a micro-scratch and try to screw a builder unfairly out of the build without giving them a chance to make it right?  For someone who screams nuance at every opportunity you seem to have fairly low bar for it since all I'm stating are consumer rights laws.



I know your guitar was built wrong. I know all the details, since you've laid it out already many times here. But knock yourself out and do it once more, sure. I'm the first to say you were not treated well by Kiesel, and for the umptieth time, I even take your example to try and discourage anyone from getting something so custom from Kiesel. Why do you need to reiterate your own experience one more time as we went over it already 10 times and we all agree? What else do you want? Will you not be satisfied until anyone and everyone else is barred from ordering something custom from them because your order went wrong. Jesus, talk about self-centered...

I was not talking about your past experience, I was laying out a hypothetical. "You'd" means "you would", not "you did". English is not even my second language so I may be wrong, but I believe "did" (unlike "had" or "would") doesn't contracts to " 'd". And did you have issues with surface scratches that were fixed through refinish on your order? No- and I know because I read your story already countless times. So clearly it's not what we're talking about! Reading comprehension much? Are you also going to confuse kitchen cabinets from the same example with your guitar? I cannot believe you don't get it, so again, most likely just bad faith arguing.

Anyway- to that hypothetical. Based on your two main points now, which are: "scratches can make it a returnable defect/not new/not as ordered, even if it is fixed" + "It would be fair to do a chargeback for a defect that one can find, even if that defect is fixed - because I believe it's the law". Here you may come with your usual "hurr durr I never said that give me quoooote", but if you didn't say it, then it would just mean that Vader guy was treated as expected, so I'll assume we're good.

Point is simple here as well. If we go by your logic for Vader guy, then anyone who finds a scratch, even if it's fixed 100% on a custom built _anything _(guitar or ukulele or kitchen cabinet or whatever) can just say "haha it's not what I ordered" and do a hard chargeback. And the builder is basically screwed despite delivering something custom that's up to specs, as ordered, and fixing all issues. Despite spending expertise, time, energy and materials with contractual understanding that the item was custom and one-off. No matter what you say, that's both legally and morally wrong. In this particular case, for scratches that were refinished right away, it would have been fair to just give the buyer exactly what he ordered, with any concern addressed. It would have been the exact treatment from pretty much any other builder out there.
But actually, not sure if I mentioned it already, but in case you haven't heard, _Kiesel even agreed to a refund_, despite the guitar ending up being exactly what the buyer ordered, and despite it having the zero-fret that the buyer agreed to waive his 10-day trial for. Crazy, right? I know... Just wait til you hear that they also agree to returns no questions asked on 90% of their builds if you just want to, that nobody forces you to buy something non returnable, and that unlike popular thinking they don't actually void warranties. It will blow...your...mind!


----------



## Hollowway

Hoss632 said:


> For fuck sake dude give it a rest. You don't like Kiesel. We get it. Move along and go sing the praises of the brands that you do like.


Well, this IS the kiesel criticism thread. There’s another thread about positive kiesel stuff. You can’t really fault the guy for posting criticism in the criticism thread. If you really like kiesel, you should probably head over here: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/


----------



## Jonathan20022

Hoss632 said:


> For fuck sake dude give it a rest. You don't like Kiesel. We get it. Move along and go sing the praises of the brands that you do like.



No offense, but your comment adds nothing to the discussion. Turn your advice to yourself and walk away from the conversation if you have nothing to add.

I liked my Kiesels, have no problem admitting they were great, but am also calling out bad business practices. If you want a hivemind brand circle jerk go find a brand related Facebook Group to join, but AFAIK you're inserting yourself into an existing conversation on a forum.



mbardu said:


> So something with a scratch means it's no longer new now? Talk about a stretch .
> Plus as usual you bring up tons of absolutely unrelated stuff in the form of shipping damages and whatever. Nobody talks about that and it has 0 relevance. Nobody talked about transit. Seriously what? Why don't you stop the strawman arguments at least_ for once_  . Why don't you reply on an actual point _for once_? All because you cannot find a single good example?
> 
> The point is simple: I doubt you could find a single manufacturer who hasn't had a guitar slip through the cracks with something minor like some scratches slipping past QA. To wit, even your Suhr (epitome of QA and consistency) passed QA despite a broken unfixable necks and 2 other undisclosed issues...so that's a little bit more egregious than a few scratches when talking about an instrument. Yet, you got it _new _and you considered it new. Just like the owner of the Vader got his guitar new. You should really check the definition of new in a dictionary because you clearly don't get it, or else it just means that you've dropped all pretense and are just being 100% disingenuous now.
> 
> Hint: "new" usually goes by something like "newly created not existing before", not "newly created not existing before- _except for Kiesel where it's not new if it has a couple of scratches - but Suhr can have issues though they're good it's just Kiesel that we hate_". I know it can be tricky and the two definition can seem the same, but the later is actually the entry for "new when I'm trying to be hypocritical and only hold Kiesel to impossible standards while all other brands get a pass".
> 
> So for all intents and purposes Vader guy got a new guitar (again...unless you want to change the meaning of the word _just for Kiesel - wouldn't surprise me with your double standards_), with cosmetic issues addressed right away, and 100% matching his order. So no basis for a refund, nobody else would have offered him a refund -and yet he got it fixed, and yet he was still able to get a refund.
> 
> PS: I didn't bring up your Suhr classic (how would I have known about this guitar lmao), like I didn't bring up Jackson earlier. So it's a bit rich to complain now that I reply and the arguments actually goes against you
> 
> 
> 
> I know your guitar was built wrong. I know all the details, since you've laid it out already many times here. But knock yourself out and do it one more, sure. I'm the first to say you were not treated well by Kiesel, and for the umptieth time, I even take your example to try and discourage anyone from getting something so custom from Kiesel. Why do you need to reiterate your own experience one more time as we went over it already 10 times and we all agree? What else do you want? Will you not be satisfied until anyone and everyone else is barred from ordering something custom from them because your order went wrong. Jesus, talk about self-centered...
> 
> I was not talking about your past experience. "You'd" means "you would", not "you did". And did you have issue with surface scratches on that order? No, so clearly it's not what we're talking about! Reading comprehension much? It's clearly not what I'm talking about. Are you also going to confuse kitchen cabinets from the same example with your guitar? I cannot believe you don't get it, so again, most likely just bad faith arguing.
> 
> I was laying out a hypothetical based on your two main points now, which are: "a scratch can make it a returnable defect/not as order, even if it is fixed" + "It would be fair to do a chargeback for any defect one can find, even if that defect is fixed - because I believe it's the law".
> 
> Point is simple here as well. If we go by your logic for Vader guy, then anyone who finds a scratch, even if it's fixed 100% on a custom built _anything _(guitar or ukulele or kitchen cabinet or whatever) can just say "haha it's not what I ordered" and do a hard chargeback. And the builder is basically screwed despite delivering up to specs, as ordered, and fixing all issues. No matter what you say, that's both legally and morally wrong. In this particular case, for scratches that were refinished right away, it would have been fair to just give the buyer exactly what he ordered, with any concern addressed. It would have been the exact treatment from pretty much any other builder out there. But actually, not sure if I mentioned already, but in case you haven't heard, Kiesel even agreed to a refund, despite the guitar ending up being exactly what the buyer order.



Dude I am completely over this, you keep using the same circling debate tactics and twist/deny examples. "I doubt you'd find any other companies...", "No that one doesn't count because..."

Now you're going to circle around me because you need cited sources on the definition of what is "new"? Which I'll indulge you before I drop out of the discussion.

In the context of product sales, Google (Merchant FAQ Information) defines item conditions as:




Ebay (Ebay Seller FAQ/Help section) defines item conditions as:




Remind me to never buy anything from you, apparently scratches aren't *damages*. 

Professionally restored products are by definition *Refurbished*, and are resold as B Stocks regularly in the music world. If you sold me something and marked it New, but it arrived with damage, I would 100% return it to you unless you made it right via other avenues.

Like my Suhr, it actually arrived and over the course of a few weeks the neck warped. Something uncontrollable that developed over time for a number of reasons, the difference is they delivered a product to the agreed spec, it was unfortunately defective. And once it was given the repair attempts, they simply offered me a return it was the logical step because they thought it was unreasonable to force their customer to wait another 5 months for a rebuild. They offered me both options and let me make my own choice, beautifully handled and I still own their instruments because I respect them and love their guitars 

Laws are concrete, your threshold for what is new is extremely liberal and that is extremely corporate friendly. You do you, but as someone who values their time and money I will hold high end products to high end standards and act accordingly when I receive something. Aka, Give them a chance to make it right, if they don't do that then I will get my valued money back. Simple as that, you bring ethics and morality into a legal argument concerning a transaction between a business and it's client, when the business fails to uphold their contract.  

The Kiesel family will be just fine if they have to refund/rebuild guitars that they mess up, especially since it's such a minor number of instruments with issues in the first place like you mention right?

Back to those Vaders, whenever news pops up about them or the next Kiesel news cycle


----------



## Hoss632

Hollowway said:


> Well, this IS the kiesel criticism thread. There’s another thread about positive kiesel stuff. You can’t really fault the guy for posting criticism in the criticism thread. If you really like kiesel, you should probably head over here: https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-carvin-kiesel-thread.158783/


I get that. But sometimes it goes beyond criticism.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> No offense, but your comment adds nothing to the discussion. Turn your advice to yourself and walk away from the conversation if you have nothing to add.
> 
> I liked my Kiesels, have no problem admitting they were great, but am also calling out bad business practices. If you want a hivemind brand circle jerk go find a brand related Facebook Group to join, but AFAIK you're inserting yourself into an existing conversation on a forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude I am completely over this, you keep using the same circling debate tactics and twist/deny examples. "I doubt you'd find any other companies...", "No that one doesn't count because..."
> 
> Now you're going to circle around me because you need cited sources on the definition of what is "new"? Which I'll indulge you before I drop out of the discussion.
> 
> In the context of product sales, Google (Merchant FAQ Information) defines item conditions as:
> 
> View attachment 87806
> 
> 
> Ebay (Ebay Seller FAQ/Help section) defines item conditions as:
> 
> View attachment 87807
> 
> 
> Remind me to never buy anything from you, apparently scratches aren't *damages*.
> 
> Professionally restored products are by definition *Refurbished*, and are resold as B Stocks regularly in the music world. If you sold me something and marked it New, but it arrived with damage, I would 100% return it to you unless you made it right via other avenues.
> 
> Like my Suhr, it actually arrived and over the course of a few weeks the neck warped. Something uncontrollable that developed over time for a number of reasons, the difference is they delivered a product to the agreed spec, it was unfortunately defective. And once it was given the repair attempts, they simply offered me a return it was the logical step because they thought it was unreasonable to force their customer to wait another 5 months for a rebuild. They offered me both options and let me make my own choice, beautifully handled and I still own their instruments because I respect them and love their guitars
> 
> Laws are concrete, your threshold for what is new is extremely liberal and that is extremely corporate friendly. You do you, but as someone who values their time and money I will hold high end products to high end standards and act accordingly when I receive something. Aka, Give them a chance to make it right, if they don't do that then I will get my valued money back. Simple as that, you bring ethics and morality into a legal argument concerning a transaction between a business and it's client, when the business fails to uphold their contract.
> 
> The Kiesel family will be just fine if they have to refund/rebuild guitars that they mess up, especially since it's such a minor number of instruments with issues in the first place like you mention right?
> 
> Back to those Vaders, whenever news pops up about them or the next Kiesel news cycle



By your own definition, Vader guy got a brand new guitar when he received it. 

To wit: he was the first one to open the guitar box and case after it left the Kiesel factory, just like any other Kiesel buyer. 
It was also undamaged, the exact same way your Suhr was undamaged. They both had_ factory flaws_: one cosmetic as marks in the finish and bubble near the logo, one pretty seriously functional if the neck is unworkable. Plus 2 others still undisclosed flaws that you mentioned but didn't specify btw, so Kiesel QA is not even _that bad_ in comparison. Anything that happens before leaving the factory and packaging of the item is by definition a factory flaw (it's even _right there in the name_), not a used-item damage. Then both guitars went back to service. 

_Those two are exactly _the same case. Literally and demonstrably the same thing. And yet you consider your guitar new and not the Kiesel. 
This is so ridiculously hypocritical that it's impossible to have a discussion with you. It's obvious you have zero objectivity regarding Kiesel, and maybe that's understandable based on your bad experience with them- but even double standards don't start to describe it.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> By your own definition, Vader guy got a brand new guitar when he received it.
> 
> To wit: he was the first one to open the guitar box and case after it left the Kiesel factory, just like any other Kiesel buyer.
> It was also undamaged, the exact same way your Suhr was undamaged. They both had_ factory flaws_: one cosmetic as marks in the finish and bubble near the logo, one pretty seriously functional if the neck is unworkable. Plus 2 others still undisclosed flaws that you mentioned but didn't specify btw, so Kiesel QA is not even _that bad_ in comparison. Anything that happens before leaving the factory and packaging of the item is by definition a factory flaw (it's even _right there in the name_), not a used-item damage. Then both guitars went back to service.
> 
> _Those two are exactly _the same case. Literally and demonstrably the same thing. And yet you consider your guitar new and not the Kiesel.
> This is so ridiculously hypocritical that it's impossible to have a discussion with you. It's obvious you have zero objectivity regarding Kiesel, and maybe that's understandable based on your bad experience with them- but even double standards don't start to describe it.



When did I say I considered my Suhr new? I literally said it developed a defect, and is considered defective at that point. Once the repair was attempted, it was then refurbished by definition. All shit I said word for word above man, what double standards are you talking about? 

Also, I said "There was more than just the neck to complain about", didn't mention 2 other flaws anywhere? Kiesel QA was worse by a wide margin easily.

One was delivered issue free, later developing an issue. And the other was built from the get go not to the agreed spec to start with, and not the expected quality and standards. You cannot speak about objectivity but completely ignore these facts, the last two days of back and forth has been pretty subjective because we clearly have different thresholds for what we accept when we purchase something. But if you want to start defining stuff and speak of objectivity, then your points fall short, definitions of new and refurbished are unanimously used in online merchant websites that sell New/Used/Refurbished/As-Is products.

There is no need for the defect/damage to be cosmetic or functional to strip any product of it's title of "Sold as New".


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> There is no need for the defect/damage to be cosmetic or functional to strip any product of it's title of "Sold as New".



Exactly, so both the Kiesel and Suhr were sold as new and had some level of factory defect. One had cosmetic issue from the factory, one had functional ones.
Exactly the same and it's mindboggling that you cannot see your double standards.

You said you received it new by the way...doesn't matter what happened later and what became refurbished or whatever- that's just you trying to muddy the waters.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Exactly, so both the Kiesel and Suhr were sold as new and had some level of factory defect. One had cosmetic issue from the factory, one had functional ones.
> Exactly the same and it's mindboggling that you cannot see your double standards.
> 
> You said you received it new by the way...doesn't matter what happened later and what became refurbished or whatever- that's just you trying to muddy the waters.



One developed a functional one _later_. How are you going to QC what happens in the future? Presumably this is one of the least exciting possible uses for time travel. So yea, one issue was preventable with technology that exists today (and is typically considered at the level of basic human competence), and the other is very difficult/impossible to control for, and therefore the builder is much less to blame.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Exactly, so both the Kiesel and Suhr were sold as new and had some level of factory defect. One had cosmetic issue from the factory, one had functional ones.
> Exactly the same and it's mindboggling that you cannot see your double standards.
> 
> You said you received it new by the way...doesn't matter what happened later and what became refurbished or whatever- that's just you trying to muddy the waters.



So now Functional/Cosmetic defects are the same and shouldn't be held to the same legal standards? Interesting.

I implore you to find me saying that, I just looked. If it's really come down to "but you said this too btw, so...", then I'm just going to take that leave now and get some rest.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> Laws are concrete, your threshold for what is new is extremely liberal and that is extremely corporate friendly. You do you, but as someone who values their time and money I will hold high end products to high end standards and act accordingly when I receive something. Aka, Give them a chance to make it right, if they don't do that then I will get my valued money back. Simple as that, you bring ethics and morality into a legal argument concerning a transaction between a business and it's client, when the business fails to uphold their contract.
> 
> The Kiesel family will be just fine if they have to refund/rebuild guitars that they mess up, especially since it's such a minor number of instruments with issues in the first place like you mention right?



BTW regarding the two other points I forgot to reply to:

Morally: if you enter in a good faith contract with a builder (again, of anything), and they deliver as promised, up to specs, and every issue addressed - then it's morally wrong to do a chargeback because you no longer want the item. You are entirely correct, Kiesel might be able to bear it easily 100%, but the small contractor who built your kitchen cabinets and invested his time, $$$ and energy might not recover when you do a chargeback and he loses all just because you didn't like that he fixed a scratch. We don't get to pick where the line is that a business is "big enough" or "small enough". I hear your very American point of view of "I'm the customer I'm always right, I'll get my money and my money's worth even if I'm unfair". Not uncommon- doesn't make it moral.

Legally: I agree, laws are concrete. I'm happy to see your sources but at least the attorney general of California, the European directive on returns and refunds of last year , the UK Consumer Acts of 2015 all make specific exclusion that custom-ordered items are exceptions to the return-for-any-reason rules and clauses. So I guess there's something there! Who knows, maybe _they _thought about the other party potentially being slighted if a buyer orders something custom and then decides to walk away despite receiving what they ordered.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> So now Functional/Cosmetic defects are the same and shouldn't be held to the same legal standards? Interesting.
> 
> I implore you to find me saying that, I just looked. If it's really come down to "but you said this too btw, so...", then I'm just going to take that leave now and get some rest.



Nobody said that. You were just trying to find some way to justify that you got a new Suhr while Vader guy somehow didn't get a new Kiesel- and that was the crux of your argument. Yet both of you got a new instrument, by the very definition you quoted (new from the factory, never opened by anyone else etc). Turns out both had different kind of defects, but that's really a detail at that point. Both were still new regardless when they left the factory.

Talking about refurbished, and what something _technically _becomes once it's still yours but goes back for repair is irrelevant and just muddying the waters.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> BTW regarding the two other points I forgot to reply to:
> 
> Morally: if you enter in a good faith contract with a builder (again, of anything), and they deliver as promised, up to specs, and every issue addressed - then it's morally wrong to do a chargeback because you no longer want the item. You are entirely correct, Kiesel might be able to bear it easily 100%, but the small contractor who built your kitchen cabinets and invested his time, $$$ and energy might not recover when you do a chargeback and he loses all just because you didn't like that he fixed a scratch. We don't get to pick where the line is that a business is "big enough" or "small enough". I hear your very American point of view of "I'm the customer I'm always right, I'll get my money and my money's worth even if I'm unfair". Not uncommon- doesn't make it moral.



Who is this point trying to argue against? Jonathan? I don't think any of us thinks it's okay to just change your mind and do a chargeback. Just seems like an attempt to mischaracterize an argument.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Who is this point trying to argue against? Jonathan? I don't think any of us thinks it's okay to just change your mind and do a chargeback. Just seems like an attempt to mischaracterize an argument.



Yes, Jonathan- arguing Vader guy should have received a refund and Kiesel should have taken his unique guitar back. The Vader guy got a Vader with the fret that he wanted, and that worked perfect. The scratches that were not caught by QA were immediately addressed, and yet Jonathan says he didn't get a new guitar and should have got a full refund instead. If it's really so hard to see the parallel, the new Vader is the new kitchen cabinets, Kiesel is the contractor, the scratches are the scratches, the fix of the scratches is the fix of the scratches, the fixed cabinets are the fixed Vader, the buyer of the cabinet getting a refund is the buyer of the Vader getting refund.

Anyway that's all hypothetical because, in case people didn't follow, Vader guy _did get his refund anyway_. So I guess if I continue the parallel the small contractor is now ruined because the buyer of cabinets was unhappy that the contractor had to fix a scratch.

Hopefully the analogy is clear


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Yes, Jonathan- arguing Vader guy should have received a refund and Kiesel should have taken his unique guitar back. The Vader guy got a Vader with the fret that he wanted, and that worked perfect. The scratches that were not caught by QA were immediately addressed, and yet Jonathan says he should have got a full refund instead. If it's really so hard to see the parallel, the Vader is the kitchen cabinets, Kiesel is the contractor, the scratches are the scratches, the fix of the scratches is the fix of the scratches, the fixed cabinets are the fixed Vader, the buyer of the cabinet getting a refund is the buyer of the Vader getting refund.
> 
> Anyway that's all hypothetical because, in case people didn't follow, Vader guy _did get his refund anyway_. So I guess if I continue the parallel the small contractor is now ruined because the buyer of cabinets was unhappy that the contractor had to fix a scratch.
> 
> Hopefully the analogy is clear



My bad, thought you were referring to Jonathan's Kiesels.


----------



## Hollowway

I get that people don’t like Kiesel (like Jonathan) because they’ve had what they consider a bad experience with them. I’m usually pretty vitriolic about people/companies that have given me the run around, too. But, for those arguing on behalf of Kiesel, what’s driving you? Love for the company? Playing devil’s advocate? Or do you generally spend a lot of energy in defense of companies in general? Honest question, because some people (I’m looking at you, mbardu, haha) are spending a huge portion of the day in this thread. I don’t mean this as a criticism of taking a particular side in this - just genuinely curious what the motivation is.


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## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> I get that people don’t like Kiesel (like Jonathan) because they’ve had what they consider a bad experience with them. I’m usually pretty vitriolic about people/companies that have given me the run around, too. But, for those arguing on behalf of Kiesel, what’s driving you? Love for the company? Playing devil’s advocate? Or do you generally spend a lot of energy in defense of companies in general? Honest question, because some people (I’m looking at you, mbardu, haha) are spending a huge portion of the day in this thread. I don’t mean this as a criticism of taking a particular side in this - just genuinely curious what the motivation is.



Haha no worries, I know you're talking about me.

I have a job with support component that easily has me at my desk erratically on-and-off for about 12 hours at my computer so I'm often online with breaks, and this is one of my 3 favorite forums...and I love arguing in general, and devil's advocate is sometimes part of that  .

Now, although I totally understand people who've had issues with them -and cases where they're not a good idea, I feel Kiesel is a great deal and safe choice in a lot of cases. I've also had good experience with them and know what to recommend and not to recommend.
It's not my only debate. Recently I debated a lot about Shecter, or about the fact that Ibanez Prestige is no longer such a great deal nowadays (and Premium is pretty good), or about the Daemoness episode. I just tend to type a lot pretty quickly, hence the frequent walls of text.
But Kiesel is _certainly by far _the one that raises the biggest BS and double standards, so it's clearly the one where you'll see me the most  .


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## mbardu

narad said:


> My bad, thought you were referring to Jonathan's Kiesels.



Oh no no no. Jonathan (as I told him before) is a different case altogether. He's the 1% of 1%, and everytime he tells his story (about the 10th time), my answer is always the same.
I feel for him, and actually think he was almost _too patient_ with Kiesel. Or rather, should never have gone with Kiesel for something so complex in the first place as it's really not their strong suit.

Now, with the latest texts he's shown I actually kinda understand Jeff's point of view a bit better. The differences in final product could be understandable if (*big *if because I don't know) he _genuinely _thought he had creative license- I know a bunch of people did ask him exactly that at about the same time period.

No matter though, Jonathan's experience was a terrible one, especially for a return customer- I agree with that 100%.
I'm only speaking about the latest Vader example that he's brought into the mix.


----------



## Mantrasky

I'm new to this forum but have heard of bad business dealings with this company! Interesting that I've never heard the same about Carvin, always professional.


----------



## spudmunkey

Mantrasky said:


> I've never heard the same about Carvin, always professional.











and amusingly...


----------



## narad

The real carvin heydey was pre-2000, before the internet was around to host the opinions of wronged customers.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3

narad said:


> The real carvin heydey was pre-2000, before the internet was around to host the opinions of wronged customers.


Darn those wronged customers.

The internet has been a double edged sword for Kiesel/Carvin


----------



## MaxOfMetal

It's just so hard to compare Carvin circa 2000 to Kiesel today. 

Completely different companies with different management, designs, tools, people, etc. If it wasn't for the lineage the comparison would be entirely different. 

Really, the only similarity is the "builder direct semi-custom" aspect.

Not that one is intrinsically better than the other, but someone looking for one would probably not be 100% satisfied with the other.


----------



## RevelGTR

There seems to be a through line of insecurity among both Jeff and the fanboys. Back in the day 50 year old Carvin fans in Hawaiian shirts would say shit like “Would love to see a CS6 in Slash’s hands.... would be we better than a Gibson!” Now if you express any kind of issue with a Kiesel the fanboys will pile on to question your motives, explain how perfect their Kiesel is etc.

All this said I still want a JBM5 or possibly a Thanos


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's just so hard to compare Carvin circa 2000 to Kiesel today.
> 
> Completely different companies with different management, designs, tools, people, etc. If it wasn't for the lineage the comparison would be entirely different.
> 
> Really, the only similarity is the "builder direct semi-custom" aspect.
> 
> Not that one is intrinsically better than the other, but someone looking for one would probably not be 100% satisfied with the other.



Eeeeh, the death of Carvin audio aside (since we're talking guitars), it's not like they pulled a BCR and changed management and product 200 times either. Or moved from being a US shop to pure WMI import operations like a few names. They didn't even introduce an electrics import line at all, which_ everyone else_ has done. A lot of things, good or bad, are still the same:

Upgraded tooling and factory sure, but largely based on the same processes and flow. I saw some of their shop documentary on DVD in the early 2000s, and in person their factory in the last few years... Apart from incremental regular improvements like newer better CNC, better paint booth, larger stuff to manage volume, slightly better fretwork... The core of the operation works the same.
_Similar _management and _a lot_ of same employees, even compared to 20 years ago. That's actually decently consistent in the industry.
You can also order the same things that you could then (DC127 or _pseudo_-bolt, CT, even though that came more around ~2005), albeit streamlined and with more options
Feel of the instruments, features - a lot are still similar, even though quality has slowly and consistently increased. My Vader doesn't have a head, but close your eyes, and apart from slightly smoother frets the neck feels very similar to a DC7 of old. Same for 6 strings.
General policy (not _volume of cases_) is the same on the contentious "option 50" stuff. It means "no 10-day trial no questions asked return if you make that call".
You still pretty much have to call them if you want clear answers on stuff- or anything to happen quickly
Compared to the industry, which has become more expensive as a whole (Indonesian stuff costing 1.5k$ nowadays...), Carvin to Kiesel has actually not changed in terms of value proposition- which is pretty impressive. I recently re-priced my first custom order with them, and adjusted for inflation the guitar would now cost within 50 bucks of then, and now includes carbon fiber rods, standard stainless steel frets with a bit better fretwork. Before actually doing the calculation I was in the camp of "why do they keep increasing by 50$ so frequently?"...but turns out that they're doing better than the others on that.
For a majority of cases, the above still applies like it did 20 years ago.

Not everything is the same of course, because there's a lot of additional _new _stuff:

New models come (and go) fast and furious is a departure from a more stable catalog in the past
Off with the heads on all the guitars!
Lots of new options, a good number of which feed into the "non returnable" stuff
International shipping and being able to get a Kiesel worldwide
No more paper catalogue!
Now Jeff's *heavy *influence is new for sure. From new pickups to less flexibility in customer service (that being something I miss) to social media mishaps, this just wasn't a thing then. But pickups aside (which most people prefer) that's really on a small (very visible, sure) minority of things in the grand scheme of things. And doesn't apply if you want the same thing you could get back then.

Even their website and ordering experience are the same as it was in 1999 geez....talk about consistency  !


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Eeeeh, the death of Carvin audio aside (since we're talking guitars), it's not like they pulled a BCR and changed management and product 200 times either. Or moved from being a US shop to pure WMI import operations like a few names. They didn't even introduce an electrics import line at all, which_ everyone else_ has done. A lot of things, good or bad, are still the same:
> 
> Upgraded tooling and factory sure, but largely based on the same processes and flow. I saw some of their shop documentary on DVD in the early 2000s, and in person their factory in the last few years... Apart from incremental regular improvements like newer better CNC, better paint booth, larger stuff to manage volume, slightly better fretwork... The core of the operation works the same.
> _Similar _management and _a lot_ of same employees, even compared to 20 years ago. That's actually decently consistent in the industry.
> You can also order the same things that you could then (DC127 or _pseudo_-bolt, CT, even though that came more around ~2005), albeit streamlined and with more options
> Feel of the instruments, features - a lot are still similar, even though quality has slowly and consistently increased. My Vader doesn't have a head, but close your eyes, and apart from slightly smoother frets the neck feels very similar to a DC7 of old. Same for 6 strings.
> General policy (not _volume of cases_) is the same on the contentious "option 50" stuff. It means "no 10-day trial no questions asked return if you make that call".
> You still pretty much have to call them if you want clear answers on stuff- or anything to happen quickly
> Compared to the industry, which has become more expensive as a whole (Indonesian stuff costing 1.5k$ nowadays...), Carvin to Kiesel has actually not changed in terms of value proposition- which is pretty impressive. I recently re-priced my first custom order with them, and adjusted for inflation the guitar would now cost within 50 bucks of then, and now includes carbon fiber rods, standard stainless steel frets with a bit better fretwork. Before actually doing the calculation I was in the camp of "why do they keep increasing by 50$ so frequently?"...but turns out that they're doing better than the others on that.
> For a majority of cases, the above still applies like it did 20 years ago.
> 
> Not everything is the same of course, because there's a lot of additional _new _stuff:
> 
> New models come (and go) fast and furious is a departure from a more stable catalog in the past
> Off with the heads on all the guitars!
> Lots of new options, a good number of which feed into the "non returnable" stuff
> International shipping and being able to get a Kiesel worldwide
> No more paper catalogue!
> Now Jeff's *heavy *influence is new for sure. From new pickups to less flexibility in customer service (that being something I miss) to social media mishaps, this just wasn't a thing then. But pickups aside (which most people prefer) that's really on a small (very visible, sure) minority of things in the grand scheme of things. And doesn't apply if you want the same thing you could get back then.
> 
> Even their website and ordering experience are the same as it was in 1999 geez....talk about consistency  !



I'm not going to write a novel, but the product, experience, policy, etc. are very very different. Obviously similarities remain, but I think there are more differences at this point. 

Again, "different" doesn't mean "bad". 

I think the biggest difference is what makes a guitar non-returnable. Back then it was either an "option 50" or a special finish, and you had to either be a long time customer or lucky enough for them to be bored enough to do it. Heck, I had three instruments ordered and delivered and was turned down at least four times (for something they now do no problem, interestingly enough). Now, regular menu items can make a guitar non-returnable.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not going to write a novel, but the product, experience, policy, etc. are very very different. Obviously similarities remain, but I think there are more differences at this point.
> 
> Again, "different" doesn't mean "bad".
> 
> I think the biggest difference is what makes a guitar non-returnable. Back then it was either an "option 50" or a special finish, and you had to either be a long time customer or lucky enough for them to be bored enough to do it. Heck, I had three instruments ordered and delivered and was turned down at least four times (for something they now do no problem, interestingly enough). Now, regular menu items can make a guitar non-returnable.



The _policy _around non-refundable / voiding the 10-day trial is still exactly the same (no change of mind, still the same warranty, confirmation before being able to order...). But like you said what options makes a guitar non refundable is indeed very different. It's exactly like you described. Used to be very rare and having to fight for it a bit. Now a lot of regular options fall under that category. So it went from 0.01% or orders to maybe 10% of orders. I would still consider even 10% a minority though, so if that's the biggest difference, then it's still fairly small.
As for _product_, lot of new options aside, if you have some thoughts on why the _product _is different (say on the same base model DC127 as 20 years ago), I'd be interested. Apart from quality slowly creeping higher over time I can't think of much difference.
_Experience _as mentioned...just look at the website 

Not trying to say that everything is better for sure. There are things that are worse.
And there is clearly a lot of new stuff that just didn't exist before (from models, to social media which wasn't even a thing).
But at least as far as I'm concerned, there are very little differences _where the two overlap_ (which is pretty much everything that you could get then, except from a few models, you can still get now with the same experience as before).

Seems to me that most (not all) brands have changed way more than Carvin/Kiesel over the course of the last 20 years. Again- nothing intrinsically good or bad about that (some things would be _good _to change - and some things that _didn't _change should have), but just an observation.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> The _policy _around non-refundable / voiding the 10-day trial is still exactly the same (no change of mind, still the same warranty, confirmation before being able to order...). But like you said what options makes a guitar non refundable is indeed very different. It's exactly like you described. Used to be very rare and having to fight for it a bit. Now a lot of regular options fall under that category. So it went from 0.01% or orders to maybe 10% of orders. I would still consider even 10% a minority though, so if that's the biggest difference, then it's still fairly small.
> As for _product_, lot of new options aside, if you have some thoughts on why the _product _is different (say on the same base model DC127 as 20 years ago), I'd be interested. Apart from quality slowly creeping higher over time I can't think of much difference.
> _Experience _as mentioned...just look at the website
> 
> Not trying to say that everything is better for sure. There are things that are worse.
> And there is clearly a lot of new stuff that just didn't exist before (from models, to social media which wasn't even a thing).
> But at least as far as I'm concerned, there are very little differences _where the two overlap_ (which is pretty much everything that you could get then, except from a few models, you can still get now with the same experience as before).
> 
> Seems to me that most (not all) brands have changed way more than Carvin/Kiesel over the course of the last 20 years. Again- nothing intrinsically good or bad about that (some things would be _good _to change - and some things that _didn't _change should have), but just an observation.



I'd say a 1000 times increase in non-returnables (your estimate) and a single legacy model out of like 90 something is fairly significant in difference of product overall.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd say a 1000 times increase in non-returnables (your estimate) and a single legacy model out of like 90 something is fairly significant in difference of product overall.



That's really a matter of policy, not product, and although we can easily get crazy % increases when starting from almost 0, it's still literally on a small minority of instruments (vs a _negligible _minority in the past). _Product _wise, the DC is still there, the CT from 2005 is the same, the Delos is a bolt let's be honest...a few niche basses and the fatboy are missing sure, but they were never the majority.

Of course there's a lot of new additional stuff, but keep that aside for a minute. If you're trying to order the same thing as you would have ordered in 2000 or 2005, the process will be the same, the price will be roughly the same adjusted for inflation, and the instrument will be the same or slightly better. I call that consistent.
The "option 50" stuff that is more frequent now (though still a minority) is anyway only in the domain of things that _were not even offered_ then so that's a bit moot.

It's like the old company with old offerings is still 90% there underneath (again- a couple of models aside), but they also tacked on a lot more models, new shiny options and social media presence + lots more potential customer service issues and public mishaps.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> That's really a matter of policy, not product, and although we can easily get crazy % increases when starting from almost 0, it's still literally on a small minority of instruments (vs a _negligible _minority in the past). _Product _wise, the DC is still there, the CT from 2005 is the same, the Delos is a bolt let's be honest...a few niche basses and the fatboy are missing sure, but they were never the majority.
> 
> Of course there's a lot of new additional stuff, but keep that aside for a minute. If you're trying to order the same thing as you would have ordered in 2000 or 2005, the process will be the same, the price will be roughly the same adjusted for inflation, and the instrument will be the same or slightly better. I call that consistent.
> The "option 50" stuff that is more frequent now (though still a minority) is anyway only in the domain of things that _were not even offered_ then so that's a bit moot.
> 
> It's like the old company with old offerings is still 90% there underneath (again- a couple of models aside), but they also tacked on a lot more models, new shiny options and social media presence + lots more potential customer service issues and public mishaps.



Out of 13 guitars and basses over 15 years, I could maybe order a replacement for a single [1] guitar, and I feel that's somewhat significant, especially considering they weren't oddball signatures or one-offs, but at the time (and for years) flagship products.

Also, given the changes in customer service expectations, I'd say the ordering experience has changed, for me at least. I guess it just feels there's more riding on certain decisions and if there is an issue I wouldn't feel as supported, which would definitely change what I order.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Out of 13 guitars and basses over 15 years, I could maybe order a replacement for a single [1] guitar, and I feel that's somewhat significant, especially considering they weren't oddball signatures or one-offs, but at the time (and for years) flagship products.
> 
> Also, given the changes in customer service expectations, I'd say the ordering experience has changed, for me at least. I guess it just feels there's more riding on certain decisions and if there is an issue I wouldn't feel as supported, which would definitely change what I order.



Fair enough. I get your point regarding perceived difference in potential future customer service expectations. I can see how that would dampen the ordering experience. Open to debate if it's justified or not on _standard _stuff, but their image has certainly suffered there due to things they should objectively have handled way better recently.

I'm still not sure I understand where your 1 replacement out of 13 instruments would come from though. At least for something equivalent, when I look at what _I_ (and most people I know of) got from them over time, fatboy aside, there's no guitar that couldn't be replaced. The DC still has the same options. The Delos is a bolt, the SC90 is an SCB, the more-recent-anyway C66 is a Theos... Looking at what they were outputting then, the large majority was objectively DCs and bolts that you could 100% reproduce today.

Admittedly, if you're thinking basses, that may be the case- I gotta say I really don't know their catalog in depth, and this is lower volume stuff compared to guitars. Oh and maybe you're thinking of 7-string with locking trem too? Yeah, that one is gone, I'll give you that. But just like non-refundable options, those look like far from the majority of stuff that they produced then and produce now. Not for you obviously, but for the company as a whole I mean.

Unless...what flagship product do you have in mind that I'm missing? Totally possible that it's a brain fart on my end.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Fair enough. I get your point regarding perceived difference in potential future customer service expectations. I can see how that would dampen the ordering experience. Open to debate if it's justified or not on _standard _stuff, but their image has certainly suffered there due to things they should objectively have handled way better recently.
> 
> I'm still not sure I understand where your 1 replacement out of 13 instruments would come from though. At least for something equivalent, when I look at what _I_ (and most people I know of) got from them over time, fatboy aside, there's no guitar that couldn't be replaced. The DC still has the same options. The Delos is a bolt, the SC90 is an SCB, the more-recent-anyway C66 is a Theos... Looking at what they were outputting then, the large majority was objectively DCs and bolts that you could 100% reproduce today.
> 
> Admittedly, if you're thinking basses, that may be the case- I gotta say I really don't know their catalog in depth, and this is lower volume stuff compared to guitars. Oh and maybe you're thinking of 7-string with locking trem too? Yeah, that one is gone, I'll give you that. But just like non-refundable options, those look like far from the majority of stuff that they produced then and produce now. Not for you obviously, but for the company as a whole I mean.
> 
> Unless...what flagship product do you have in mind that I'm missing? Totally possible that it's a brain fart on my end.



I've owned four DC7s, a TMac, a DC400CW, three XBs, two Icons, a B5/50, and an AE185. So I could replace the AE, and could probably wrangle a DC into something similar, maybe, but the basses and 7-strings would be no-gos.

We can argue about whether an SB is the same thing as an SC90 or if the Delos and Bolt are 1:1, but I don't have that level of commitment.

Again, I never said that shuffling the lineup is good or bad, but it's definitely different than it was.

EDIT: I also had an LB. So 14 Carvins.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've owned four DC7s, a TMac, a DC400CW, three XBs, two Icons, a B5/50, and an AE185. So I could replace the AE, and could probably wrangle a DC into something similar, maybe, but the basses and 7-strings would be no-gos.
> 
> We can argue about whether an SB is the same thing as an SC90 or if the Delos and Bolt are 1:1, but I don't have that level of commitment.
> 
> Again, I never said that shuffling the lineup is good or bad, but it's definitely different than it was.
> 
> EDIT: I also had an LB. So 14 Carvins.



Naaah no need to argue please, there's enough of that  .

Some guitars are changed a bit, some are very very similar still, there's not a lot to debate anyway. The DC stuff is where it's most consistent and reproducible today (although bolt is not that far offf and the more recent CT is unchanged) - except for your needs there's no longer a 7-string Floyd. Plus basses have changed more than guitars. Makes your personal perspective 100% clear.


----------



## Jeff

I had an issue with a DC127 in 2012, that had a finish crack. I was irritated about it, found a line on a different guitar anyway, so I called to return it. After sending Albert(?) a pic of it, he said it wasn’t a finish crack, just “grain”, and that I couldn’t return the guitar because the holdsworth headstock made it non-returnable (even though the headstock was in the builder and didn’t denote an Option 50). 
I told him that’s fine, I’ll just dispute with my credit card, and then they can have nothing. They took it back.


----------



## xzacx

I think the "vibe" of the company is pretty objectively different. That's probably been both a good thing and bad thing. Good in the sense that it's really capitalized on the metal/ERG crowd—a younger demographic that actually still buys guitars. Bad in the sense that more people have a negative feelings towards the brand than just indifference. It's too bad because those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Jeff could have still gone the direction he did with the actual instruments without making it so much about him and his image. Had the been the case, I think a lot more people would just be like "I'm not into the designs, Kiesel isn't for me" than actively disliking it. Putting himself as the face of the brand so actively on social media means he's got to deal with the negativity (some deserved, some nitpicking that comes with the territory) that comes along with it. That's where I really do think it's a different company, even if some of the guitars are similar.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've owned four DC7s, a TMac, a DC400CW, three XBs, two Icons, a B5/50, and an AE185. So I could replace the AE, and could probably wrangle a DC into something similar, maybe, but the basses and 7-strings would be no-gos.
> 
> We can argue about whether an SB is the same thing as an SC90 or if the Delos and Bolt are 1:1, but I don't have that level of commitment.
> 
> Again, I never said that shuffling the lineup is good or bad, but it's definitely different than it was.
> 
> EDIT: I also had an LB. So 14 Carvins.



I'm curious: what is it about the Icons that you can't get? The only part of the DC400CW (which would now just be an optioned-up DC127 with a 3PB option with alder as the middle layer, and claro walnut top) you can't get is the active preamp...which for all intents and purposes is just a pickup option, and I feel like it's not quite the same thing as a whole model being discontinued. You can also still get the 4-knob/3-mini-switch control config, it'll just be passive like the option on the on the JB200C.

Wow...so you're the guy who they sold all three XBs to?  (I kid!)

It's interesting that we treat some "product" companies so much different than companies in other industries. Like...Ford has been making Mustang's for 50+ years that aren't ANYTHING like the ones they made back in-the-day. Hell, soon you'll be able to drive an electric SUV with a Mustang badge. Early Fords had a reverse pedal, and the throttle was on the steering column. And yet you can't buy a Chevy Bel-Air anymore, not from a dealer nor chevy directly.

To draw the parallel, no there's no DC727...but there's 4 new double-cut neck-through models with humbuckers, and fixed bridge options and trems. No, no Floyds...but you can't get Sync 2 in a new Ford (not sure why anyone would want to, but it's the first example that came to mind). There's no B5/B50...when those existed they were the only bolt-on basses...but there's SEVEN bolt-on basses now, 6 of them double-cuts.

Note: I'm not arguing against that you can't get the exact same ones...just more of a "thinking out loud" sort of thing, thinking about guitars more in general.


----------



## mbardu

Jeff said:


> I had an issue with a DC127 in 2012, that had a finish crack. I was irritated about it, found a line on a different guitar anyway, so I called to return it. After sending Albert(?) a pic of it, he said it wasn’t a finish crack, just “grain”, and that I couldn’t return the guitar because the holdsworth headstock made it non-returnable (even though the headstock was in the builder and didn’t denote an Option 50).
> I told him that’s fine, I’ll just dispute with my credit card, and then they can have nothing. They took it back.



If they legit sold you something non returnable *without telling you*, then that's absolutely unacceptable. And for a headstock of all things? Was the "no 10-day trial" not on your invoice? That would certainly be a much better actual argument than someone getting what they _knowingly _ordered and then changing their mind.
In such a case, yeah the threat or use of chargeback would be a-OK in my book. Glad you were at least sorted out in the end.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I'm curious: what is it about the Icons that you can't get? The only part of the DC400CW (which would now just be an optioned-up DC127 with a 3PB option with alder as the middle layer, and claro walnut top) you can't get is the active preamp...which for all intents and purposes is just a pickup option, and I feel like it's not quite the same thing as a whole model being discontinued. You can also still get the 4-knob/3-mini-switch control config, it'll just be passive like the optiuon on the on the JB200C.
> 
> Wow...so you're the guy who they sold all three XBs to?  (I kid!)



We were talking about _guitars_ specifically, which I acknowledged I could probably get something similar to my old 400, but the only one that can be ordered identical (probably) is the AE.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not going to write a novel, but the product, experience, policy, etc. are very very different. Obviously similarities remain, but I think there are more differences at this point.
> 
> Again, "different" doesn't mean "bad".
> 
> I think the biggest difference is what makes a guitar non-returnable. Back then it was either an "option 50" or a special finish, and you had to either be a long time customer or lucky enough for them to be bored enough to do it. Heck, I had three instruments ordered and delivered and was turned down at least four times (for something they now do no problem, interestingly enough). Now, regular menu items can make a guitar non-returnable.


Apparently the main similarities that remain is their staff couldn't be bothered and their customer service blows.


----------



## mbardu

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Apparently the main similarities that remain is their staff couldn't be bothered and their customer service blows.



Plus the people with an edge hating on them unconditionally  !


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Apparently the main similarities that remain is their staff couldn't be bothered and their customer service blows.



It just seems different. 

When I had problems, it just seemed like no one really knew what the process was to get things resolved. Sure, they weren't excited to deal with the issue, but it just seemed they felt like they couldn't do much and overall the process just took so much longer than it had to.

Now, I think we all know where the buck stops, but it can still go weird for seemingly no reason. 

So I'd say it was less "bad" and more "clueless" if that makes sense.


----------



## I play music

mbardu said:


> Plus the people with an edge hating on them unconditionally  !


And on the other side the fanboys defending them unconditionally


----------



## mbardu

I play music said:


> And on the other side the fanboys defending them unconditionally



And neither is good.

If someone was trying to defend their customer service mishaps, or trying to justify if they actually sold someone something non returnable without telling them, that would be unconditional and that would make 0 sense. About as little sense as saying that they are now voiding warranties or other nonsense.


----------



## Mantrasky

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 87818
> View attachment 87819
> View attachment 87820
> View attachment 87822
> View attachment 87823
> 
> 
> 
> and amusingly...
> 
> View attachment 87821


That's interesting, I haven't had any dealings with them since the mid-'80s, how things change?


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> Plus the people with an edge hating on them unconditionally  !


I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I’m not sure there’s much unconditional hate. Jeff has spent the last 4 years generating bad will towards himself and the company, so when there are small issues (not even speaking of the insane ones we all know about) people are much more likely to think “fuck that guy and fuck his company.” I was shopping for an Osiris until the cracking debacle and I’m still shopping for a JBM5 right now, but even I get filled with rage when I think about some of shit Jeff has pulled. 

My recollection is that there was a lot of good will for Carvin and a TON of excitement moving into the Kiesel transition. I don’t think people are thinking “Fuck that company for making guitars that are the best value in the industry as long as you can keep them under $1800 and letting you choose exactly what you want!” I think Jeff and a few other characters + the fanboys have just absolutely wrecked any good will in the guitar community aside from their dedicated fan base.


----------



## spudmunkey

What is hilarious to me are the old-schoolers who basically outright DEMAND that they go back to the Carvin name even after 5 years of being Kiesel, because they like the name better, and it makes them think of the old catalogs, etc etc. Basically the " but mah heritage!" argument.


----------



## RevelGTR

spudmunkey said:


> What is hilarious to me are the old-schoolers who basically outright DEMAND that they go back to the Carvin name even after 5 years of being Kiesel, because they like the name better, and it makes them think of the old catalogs, etc etc. Basically the " but mah heritage!" argument.


Is that a common sentiment among the fan base? The massive increase in desirability with the switch means your instruments aren’t worth 20% of what you paid anymore, that seems like a big plus. 

I was on the old Carvin Museum site the other day and it did give me massive nostalgia though.


----------



## spudmunkey

RevelGTR said:


> Is that a common sentiment among the fan base?



Oh, no...definitely it's a minority opinion.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I’m not sure there’s much unconditional hate. Jeff has spent the last 4 years generating bad will towards himself and the company, so when there are small issues (not even speaking of the insane ones we all know about) people are much more likely to think “fuck that guy and fuck his company.” I was shopping for an Osiris until the cracking debacle and I’m still shopping for a JBM5 right now, but even I get filled with rage when I think about some of shit Jeff has pulled.
> 
> My recollection is that there was a lot of good will for Carvin and a TON of excitement moving into the Kiesel transition. I don’t think people are thinking “Fuck that company for making guitars that are the best value in the industry as long as you can keep them under $1800 and letting you choose exactly what you want!” I think Jeff and a few other characters + the fanboys have just absolutely wrecked any good will in the guitar community aside from their dedicated fan base.



No you're absolutely right. And actually even despite the multiple negatives and issues over the last few years, a lot of people (especially around here) are still pretty balanced on the topic and give them a fair chance. As I mentioned before though, when I see BS, I just can't help but correct it though- and it's then that you see the extremists come out of the woodwork.



RevelGTR said:


> I was on the old Carvin Museum site the other day and it did give me massive nostalgia though.



The most nostalgia inducing period for me is 1990/1991. Those slender bodied DC-125s with big pointy headstock, logo and extra-shiny MOP blocks are my favorite era.
This but fixed bridge, single pickup, single volume+switch:


----------



## RevelGTR

mbardu said:


> The most nostalgia inducing period for me is 1990/1991. Those slender bodied DC-125s with big pointy headstock, logo and extra-shiny MOP blocks are my favorite era.
> This but fixed bridge, single pickup, single volume+switch:
> 
> View attachment 87845



I love that era as well, and sadly they never seem to come up for sale!


----------



## Hollowway

Those catalogs were the BEST. My bandmate and I used to drool over those. I was too young and could never afford one back then, but it was so fun to just stare at the pages and wish.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> I love that era as well, and sadly they never seem to come up for sale!



Never! Especially if you're looking for the elusive neck-through with good neck joint in 24.75" scale on top of the aforementioned big blocks and headstock.
Literally impossible to find. Plus now sounds like when it pops up I have to compete with one more guy to buy it


----------



## Mantrasky

RevelGTR said:


> I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I’m not sure there’s much unconditional hate. Jeff has spent the last 4 years generating bad will towards himself and the company, so when there are small issues (not even speaking of the insane ones we all know about) people are much more likely to think “fuck that guy and fuck his company.” I was shopping for an Osiris until the cracking debacle and I’m still shopping for a JBM5 right now, but even I get filled with rage when I think about some of shit Jeff has pulled.
> 
> My recollection is that there was a lot of good will for Carvin and a TON of excitement moving into the Kiesel transition. I don’t think people are thinking “Fuck that company for making guitars that are the best value in the industry as long as you can keep them under $1800 and letting you choose exactly what you want!” I think Jeff and a few other characters + the fanboys have just absolutely wrecked any good will in the guitar community aside from their dedicated fan base.


I appreciate the information about Kiesel as a few of my friends have talked about purchasing within similar price range. Reputation is so fragile online and sometimes people are quick to judge, though there are players with bad experience and "many" say Kiesel needs a better spokesperson to front the company. There are fans of the brand that will believe in their opinion no matter what peoples experience, I've had "Great to Good" with Gibson, Fender, Suhr, Anderson, PRS and I love a particular Charvel CS that has been my primary guitar for live & recording (10yrs) Recently refretted with Jescar 6100 SS, though I've been playing Charvel since 1980 (Wayne to Grover days) I look for "Exceptional Qualities" in the craftsmanship, tone & playability in the instrument not necessarily the name alone.....


----------



## Dexterford

Does anyone have the jeff kiesel roasted fretboard rant? I can't find it anywhere.


----------



## mastapimp

Dexterford said:


> Does anyone have the jeff kiesel roasted fretboard rant? I can't find it anywhere.


It's sprinkled throughout this video. My favorite part is when he flexes his 8" biceps after telling a long-term repeat customer to man up during Covid.


----------



## Dexterford

no the original raw video?


----------



## mastapimp

Dexterford said:


> no the original raw video?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

That was such a stupid rant. If memory serves, it was about matching, which it didn't.


----------



## CanserDYI

Oh my lord who gives a shit about Jeff Kiesel. If you like their guitars, buy it. If you don't, don't. Don't buy shit because you like or dislike the owner, that's ridiculous. (With the exception of Mike Fulton as his drives are easily cloned and he's a POS)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

CanserDYI said:


> Oh my lord who gives a shit about Jeff Kiesel. If you like their guitars, buy it. If you don't, don't. Don't buy shit because you like or dislike the owner, that's ridiculous. (With the exception of Mike Fulton as his drives are easily cloned and he's a POS)


Lmao. So is Kiesel.


----------



## CanserDYI

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Lmao. So is Kiesel.


So don't buy one?

EDIT: Also, while Jeff Kiesel can be abrasive to some, at least he's not a public bigot.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

CanserDYI said:


> So don't buy one?
> 
> EDIT: Also, while Jeff Kiesel can be abrasive to some, at least he's not a public bigot.


Not wanting your business to get destroyed and looted makes one a bigot.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lol. Imagine thinking Mike Fortin and/or Jeff Kiesel are worth arguing over the internet for. Lol.


----------



## CanserDYI

Oh I personally find him abrasive, but reading my post above would tell you I actually was saying the same thing you are.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Just popping in to say it still makes me giggle and also infuriates me how he said "men" while flexing his bicep.


----------



## Hollowway

I never watched this video, and I haven’t seen the one from Jim from Strictly 7, but I do wonder what motivates them to make them. Like, what did they think was going to happen that they dedicated the time to do it?


----------



## Avedas

Hollowway said:


> I never watched this video, and I haven’t seen the one from Jim from Strictly 7, but I do wonder what motivates them to make them. Like, what did they think was going to happen that they dedicated the time to do it?


No such thing as bad publicity.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Avedas said:


> No such thing as bad publicity.



Yep. Look what it did for Strictly 7... Oh wait.


----------



## Avedas

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yep. Look what it did for Strictly 7... Oh wait.


And yet those guys are still making bank branding accessories.


----------



## John

Chokey Chicken said:


> Just popping in to say it still makes me giggle and also infuriates me how he said "men" while flexing his bicep.



Same vibe:


----------



## drgordonfreeman

cip 123 said:


> Also the 23 fret Kelly got fixed, the extra fret just ended up on this -
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-jackson-b7-satin-black-with-an-extra-fret-d.291095/




The 23 fret Kelly was mine, and it was a massive pain in the ass to get it fixed. It wasn't that simple. Matt's Music wasn't super helpful, either. Everyone eventually agreed to a rebuild, and the guitar I received back was clearly a rush job. To this day, I REFUSE to give any more money to Jackson. This wasn't the first time they've screwed up one of my builds, either. It was just the most public.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

drgordonfreeman said:


> The 23 fret Kelly was mine, and it was a massive pain in the ass to get it fixed. It wasn't that simple. Matt's Music wasn't super helpful, either. Everyone eventually agreed to a rebuild, and the guitar I received back was clearly a rush job. To this day, I REFUSE to give any more money to Jackson. This wasn't the first time they've screwed up one of my builds, either. It was just the most public.


Pricks.


----------



## Matt08642

drgordonfreeman said:


> The 23 fret Kelly was mine, and it was a massive pain in the ass to get it fixed. It wasn't that simple. Matt's Music wasn't super helpful, either. Everyone eventually agreed to a rebuild, and the guitar I received back was clearly a rush job. To this day, I REFUSE to give any more money to Jackson. This wasn't the first time they've screwed up one of my builds, either. It was just the most public.



Just read that whole thread and my bigger takeaway was how the hell were people waiting 3+ years for a single guitar? I assume since you're paying exorbitant prices and the value isn't in the raw materials, it would at least help with expediting the whole process


----------



## H I G H W I N D

drgordonfreeman said:


> The 23 fret Kelly was mine, and it was a massive pain in the ass to get it fixed. It wasn't that simple. Matt's Music wasn't super helpful, either. Everyone eventually agreed to a rebuild, and the guitar I received back was clearly a rush job. To this day, I REFUSE to give any more money to Jackson. This wasn't the first time they've screwed up one of my builds, either. It was just the most public.



Dang, that sucks to hear from Jackson and Matt's Music


----------



## mbardu

Matt08642 said:


> Just read that whole thread and my bigger takeaway was how the hell were people *waiting 3+ years for a single guitar*? I assume since you're paying exorbitant prices and the value isn't in the raw materials, it would at least help with expediting the whole process


----------



## spudmunkey

I read that line while in line at the post office, and couldn't wait to get back home to make that same damn meme.


----------



## Matt08642

mbardu said:


>



Lol is this the norm? Seems like my tastes would change over 3 years.


----------



## spudmunkey

Matt08642 said:


> Lol is this the norm? Seems like my tastes would change over 3 years.


Yes. Isn't it something like 3-4 years (maybe 5?) before it's even your turn on the list, before wood is even purchased?


----------



## Matt08642

spudmunkey said:


> Yes. Isn't it something like 3-4 years (maybe 5?) before it's even your turn on the list, before wood is even purchased?



Damn that's way too much time to contemplate "Ah shit, is it worth it?" before the guitar's in my hands , not that I'm going around buying $6000 guitars anyway


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Yes. Isn't it something like 3-4 years (maybe 5?) before it's even your turn on the list, before wood is even purchased?


yeah, about 4 years to that point.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Yes. Isn't it something like 3-4 years (maybe 5?) before it's even your turn on the list, before wood is even purchased?



If you mean Daemoness, the books are closed indefinitely as he moves to an in-stock/on-offer business model. 

But yeah, at the height of the backlog it was looking like 3 years before your build would be towards the top of the queue.



Matt08642 said:


> Just read that whole thread and my bigger takeaway was how the hell were people waiting 3+ years for a single guitar? I assume since you're paying exorbitant prices and the value isn't in the raw materials, it would at least help with expediting the whole process



It's not like they start the guitar the second you submit your order form. The build goes into a queue and depending on how all the orders prior to yours progress, there can be delays. 

If your guitar has 50 orders ahead of it, it's likely there will be delays as even the best shops will run into some delays/problems out of that many builds.


----------



## Hollowway

So there’s a JB yin yang for sale in the GIS section on the kiesel site. As is typical, they post the actual price as the “sale price,” and inflate the regular price. In other words, the you can go on the site and buy the guitar for $2049. But in the in-stock section, it lists as $2149 -$100 with a big old “save $100!” I remember I asked Mike Jones about this when I called in one time to buy a Guitar. He said that’s just the way the site works, so they inflate the prices to make it look like it’s on sale, because they need to show a “save $xxx!” line. But it strikes me as shady whenever I see that.

edit: Welp, that’s what I get for checking out the GIS page. They finally got a ZBM7 in, so I bought it.  The savings were inflated (naturally) but it was $100 off. It’s white/white with a maple board and offset abalone inlays. Not as flashy as pink or purple, but I guess I’m going classy this time.


----------



## Andromalia

Hollowway said:


> He said that’s just the way the site works, so they inflate the prices to make it look like it’s on sale, because they need to show a “save $xxx!” line. But it strikes me as shady whenever I see that.



lol that shit is legal in the USA? /facepalm


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Hollowway said:


> As is typical, they post the actual price as the “sale price,” and inflate the regular price. In other words, the you can go on the site and buy the guitar for $2049. But in the in-stock section, it lists as $2149 -$100 with a big old “save $100!” I remember I asked Mike Jones about this when I called in one time to buy a Guitar. He said that’s just the way the site works, so they inflate the prices to make it look like it’s on sale, because they need to show a “save $xxx!” line. But it strikes me as shady whenever I see that.


What in the actual fuck did I just read?...

Kiesel...at it again...


----------



## spudmunkey

The in-stocks "sale" price is meant to be the their "retail" price, then there's there current (long-running) $100 off sale price, and the also-long-running "$100 off options" promo, which in most cases would combine to equal $200 off the "retail" price...but it's also the price if you were to order one normally. So in essence, they are both "$200 off"...but the sales have been on for yeeeeears...like the early 2000s, I think.


----------



## Dexterford

Learn people dont buy kiesel. jeff is so arrogant and an asshole.


----------



## lurè

Dexterford said:


> Learn people dont buy kiesel. jeff is so arrogant and an asshole.



If you work for an asshole are you an asshole?


----------



## Dexterford

lurè said:


> ssho


no but watch his live shows and tell me that he isn't with his manners and attitude.


----------



## lurè

Dexterford said:


> no but watch his live shows and tell me that he isn't with his manners and attitude.



I understand and agree he's not the person you would hang out with, but I'll never get the "i like kiesels but jeff is an asshole so I won't buy them"; like every other companies are run by Gandhi.


----------



## CanserDYI

I can't wait for my next Kiesel, and I don't like Jeff. *Shrug*


----------



## bigcupholder

Hollowway said:


> edit: Welp, that’s what I get for checking out the GIS page. They finally got a ZBM7 in, so I bought it.  The savings were inflated (naturally) but it was $100 off. It’s white/white with a maple board and offset abalone inlays. Not as flashy as pink or purple, but I guess I’m going classy this time.


I saw that one. I remembered someone on here posting about how they want a 7 string Zeus bass. Congrats! Please post a review when you get it. Are you going to tune B-E like a 7 string guitar one octave down or how does one tune a 7 string bass?


----------



## ElysianGuitars

lurè said:


> I understand and agree he's not the person you would hang out with, but I'll never get the "i like kiesels but jeff is an asshole so I won't buy them"; like every other companies are run by Gandhi.


Joe Balaguer is a pretty great dude, and his guitars are competitive with Kiesel  There's lots of companies out there not run by assholes. EQ Guitars is another. Sully too. Lots of choices to spend your money.


----------



## CanserDYI

ElysianGuitars said:


> Joe Balaguer is a pretty great dude, and his guitars are competitive with Kiesel  There's lots of companies out there not run by assholes. EQ Guitars is another. Sully too. Lots of choices to spend your money.


Joe might be a cool dude, but for the price of a USA made Kiesel, which mine is absolutely amazing quality, you can get a Korean made version of Joe's guitars, and it takes longer, and honestly, most of their options are extremely pricey. I spec'd out my "vanquish specs" on their site and it was a good 500 bucks more than my Kiesel, and would have taken a few extra months, and would be the equivalent of a Schecter or LTD (love both of those companies). I love Balaguer's but I don't find them to be an amazing deal/steal over Kiesel.


----------



## CanserDYI

Also....this is a terrible warranty. The guitar takes freaking 6 months to get to you, yet the warranty starts the day after your purchase. LOL.


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> Joe might be a cool dude, but for the price of a USA made Kiesel, which mine is absolutely amazing quality, you can get a Korean made version of Joe's guitars, and it takes longer, and honestly, most of their options are extremely pricey. I spec'd out my "vanquish specs" on their site and it was a good 500 bucks more than my Kiesel, and would have taken a few extra months, and would be the equivalent of a Schecter or LTD (love both of those companies). I love Balaguer's but I don't find them to be an amazing deal/steal over Kiesel.



No kidding...Balaguer semi-custom can be _expensive AF _for what you get.
I priced a "stealthy boutique-looking" build from them, and it would have costed me about 3k$ for something that would still have a bunch of compromises


And as you said will feel like a run of the mill guitar, with run of the mill components.
Nothing against those for sure, (being able to get a Korean Schecter or LTD with good specs for 1k$ today is awesome) but not for 3k$.

Kiesel doesn't do this shape, but similar specs on another body style will run you ~600$ less than Balaguer (with better construction and an actual top). But more shocking, for about the same price (maybe ~200$ more depending on exchange rate), I can get an actual custom Vandermeij built to _exact _specs (scale length to the mm), with actual boutique features (purfling, custom tone block, flush straploks) and high end components on everything, getting to choose the grain on actual unique woods (not veneers)... I'm sure I'm missing a few things.



ElysianGuitars said:


> Joe Balaguer is a pretty great dude, and his guitars are competitive with Kiesel



The semi-custom Balaguers are not that competitive no. As for the person, maybe he's a great dude, I don't know. But I doubt he's going to build me a guitar out of the goodness of his heart, so I don't know that I will necessarily buy his guitars at a large premium either - just as a gesture towards someone I don't know. Even less a guitar that he won't really have a hand in because it's outsourced to an overseas shop. And certainly not just because I read he's nice on the internet..



CanserDYI said:


> View attachment 96394
> 
> Also....this is a terrible warranty. The guitar takes freaking 6 months to get to you, yet the warranty starts the day after your purchase. LOL.



Funny thing is that in Kiesel's case, even on all the "Option 50" drama that was popping up a year or two ago ("the guitar should be returnable, even though it said "not returnable"), all the guitars, even the non-returnable ones, still got the same full 5-year warranty as any other instrument.
There's no concept of "option 50" at Balaguer either. All custom orders are final non returnable - whereas majority of Kiesels are returnable, and it's clear when they're not.

-----------

Now, none of that changes the argument of "I only buy stuff from people I personally like".
But then the guitar industry is no different than other industries and I think most people are lying to themselves.

By definition, half the people in the industry will be "worse" people than the average dude (median dude if you want to be pedantic  ). Yet we assume Jeff Kiesel is _the one_ bad guy, whereas the folks benefiting from Ibanez/FMIC/ESP, or the investment firm which purchased Suhr etc would somehow all be great guys that are more deserving of the players' money. Spoiler alert: majority of the guitars are built for profit, _all _the companies in the industry are there for profit (at least I'm not aware of a non-profit guitar builder), and most are usually happy to put profit ahead of the customer. Nothing to take personally here.
Jeff Kiesel happened to be the most visible dude with bad decisions for a bit, with pretty questionable decisions and outbursts a couple of years ago. No question there either.
But if your decision for buying stuff in general is based on who profits from the purchase and whether they're good people, then (even without necessarily getting that deep into ethical concerns), I sure hope you are not using a smartphone, driving a car, or buying from the food industry.


----------



## mmr007

The flaw in that logic is there are fewer options with regards to smart phones and the like. No matter what you buy someone poorly paid in sweatshop conditions working for a large corp with shitty global politics is responsible for its manufacture If someone wants to take a stand on a smaller guitar manufacturer and spend their money elsewhere to force change that is good….its the basis of free market….and if the choice is made to force a company to not be a dick to its customers then that is an achievable goal in this instance. May not be successful but achievable and if they are noisey enough in forums that the company would monitor then that is also good. I am not experienced in Keisel but I know there was one major incident online with that return some time back. Is there not evidence that Jeff has learned his lesson with regards to customer service?


----------



## mbardu

mmr007 said:


> The flaw in that logic is there are fewer options with regards to smart phones and the like. No matter what you buy someone poorly paid in sweatshop conditions working for a large corp with shitty global politics is responsible for its manufacture If someone wants to take a stand on a smaller guitar manufacturer and spend their money elsewhere to force change that is good….its the basis of free market….and if the choice is made to force a company to not be a dick to its customers then that is an achievable goal in this instance. May not be successful but achievable and if they are noisey enough in forums that the company would monitor then that is also good. I am not experienced in Keisel but I know there was one major incident online with that return some time back. Is there not evidence that Jeff has learned his lesson with regards to customer service?



There was not just one issue with Kiesel. Actually a good number of faux-pas a few years ago, some very public with a bunch of drama.
But it's been pretty quiet with good feedback for the last couple of years. Looks like they're just too busy with too many orders at the moment.

The argument regarding smartphone...sure there are differences, but it's a matter of nuance, not fundamentals.
Take one extreme end of the spectrum. Think about a beginner guitar player with a very tight budget who can't afford all that much. Think about entry-level guitars from Ibanez/Jackson/Fender/LTD or whatever, mass produced in China at very little cost, using cheap labor as well. Not that far from the smartphone example now, is it? Yet nobody shits on the beginner who can only afford that. In turn, nobody shits on people who buy mid-range or high-end gear from those same brands either - yet they're the same companies. Interestingly, at least Kiesel produces guitars in the US, pays people good wages, treats employees well (some have been with the company for 35+ years), sources from good companies and suppliers (Jescar, Hipshot...)...so they're actually among the best in that area.

Which leaves just the issue of customer service. And there, in actuality, they're pretty much middle of the pack on average. They've had lapses, some very bad and impacting some members here, but not worse than Jackson or Gibson or others. They don't have the "almost perfect" record of the Suhrs and Andersons. But on the other hand, they're certainly not worse than some other smaller builders.
Where they've just been #1 champion is how those escalated on social media for all to see; and when you combine the sheer volumes they're pumping out (5k custom guitars a year is no joke) with the personality of the owner, that's not surprising.


----------



## mbardu

lurè said:


> I understand and agree he's not the person you would hang out with, but I'll never get the "i like kiesels but jeff is an asshole so I won't buy them"; like every other companies *are run by Gandhi.*



Oh no, we're all gonna get nuked.


----------



## spudmunkey

Even outside the game, from what I understand, Gandhi was a pretty shitty dude.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Even outside *the game*, from what I understand, Gandhi was a pretty shitty dude.



oh no


----------



## asopala

ElysianGuitars said:


> Joe Balaguer is a pretty great dude, and his guitars are competitive with Kiesel  There's lots of companies out there not run by assholes. EQ Guitars is another. Sully too. Lots of choices to spend your money.



I love EQ and all they've done, but they're in another price league. I'm pretty sure most stuff STARTS around $4k USD.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mbardu said:


> No kidding...Balaguer semi-custom can be _expensive AF _for what you get.
> I priced a "stealthy boutique-looking" build from them, and it would have costed me about 3k$ for something that would still have a bunch of compromises
> View attachment 96395
> 
> And as you said will feel like a run of the mill guitar, with run of the mill components.
> Nothing against those for sure, (being able to get a Korean Schecter or LTD with good specs for 1k$ today is awesome) but not for 3k$.
> 
> Kiesel doesn't do this shape, but similar specs on another body style will run you ~600$ less than Balaguer (with better construction and an actual top). But more shocking, for about the same price (maybe ~200$ more depending on exchange rate), I can get an actual custom Vandermeij built to _exact _specs (scale length to the mm), with actual boutique features (purfling, custom tone block, flush straploks) and high end components on everything, getting to choose the grain on actual unique woods (not veneers)... I'm sure I'm missing a few things.
> 
> 
> 
> The semi-custom Balaguers are not that competitive no. As for the person, maybe he's a great dude, I don't know. But I doubt he's going to build me a guitar out of the goodness of his heart, so I don't know that I will necessarily buy his guitars at a large premium either - just as a gesture towards someone I don't know. Even less a guitar that he won't really have a hand in because it's outsourced to an overseas shop. And certainly not just because I read he's nice on the internet..
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is that in Kiesel's case, even on all the "Option 50" drama that was popping up a year or two ago ("the guitar should be returnable, even though it said "not returnable"), all the guitars, even the non-returnable ones, still got the same full 5-year warranty as any other instrument.
> There's no concept of "option 50" at Balaguer either. All custom orders are final non returnable - whereas majority of Kiesels are returnable, and it's clear when they're not.
> .


Uhh, have you played any Balaguers? I've owned like 12 kiesels (still have 2) and I own a Balaguer Tartarus. The kiesels I currently have are not any better quality than the Balaguer. Which is to say they are both excellent quality guitars for the money I paid (sub 2k for the Tartarus and sub 1500 for the zm7). Both of the aforementioned guitars punch far above their price points ime. But implying that the Balaguers are inherently worse because they're more expensive and made in korea is akin to claiming ESP Japan is worse than PRS because they charge more.

A lot of what you're calling "boutique" options aren't offered by kiesel either (they never do purfling or flush mount straplocks iirc), so those aren't valid examples. 
If you want half of what you're complaining about then neither kiesel or balaguer are good options. They are semi-custom shops, not full custom. I could go into detail about how I sent diagrams to Waghorn of EXACTLY how I wanted my control layout spaced, and how I sent diagrams about the neck profile/thickness, how I picked out the exact top on my build, etc. Same thing with my 2 builds through Knightro. 

In terms of construction, you can specify per model whether you want neck thru/bolt/set with balaguer, whereas with kiesel you get what they tell you. I would have loved a neck through zeus but it's not really an option.


What sickens me is how people still don't understand that veneers are actually quite expensive if you want highly figured pieces. I mean they're literally paper thin slices of a highly figured billet. There are huge logistical issues with sourcing highly figured billets in sizes necessary for some of Balaguer's shapes (eg the tartarus and the bigger RD type shapes). I've personally spent the better part of a year trying to source ONE highly figured explorer size top for a build. I ended up having to go with a veneer just because the cost for those sizes of pre cut billets can be stupid (like 400$+ for a reallllllllly good one from some suppliers).

Then there's the misconception that making things in the USA is inherently going to make them higher quality. Kiesel has shit the bed multiple times over the years with builds (remember the whole roasted maple debacle, the cracked ebony fingerboards, color mismatches, blatantly wrong specs, not properly fixing things they fucked up, etc). Conversely I'm in a number of ERG groups on fb and I've yet to hear people utter similar things about Balaguer. In fact, in the last 2 years I haven't heard anything bad about them at all.
At the end of the day with near everyone nowadays getting some kind of help from CNC (barring some holdouts), it is the little details that start to stack up and differentiate guitars. Things like slightly dressing the fret ends (which kiesel doesn't do ime), sending progress pictures of your build, and actually having good customer service. You know, stuff like that.


----------



## CanserDYI

I want to put out the fact for the record I am not saying Kiesel's are better than Balaguers.


----------



## iamaom

Andromalia said:


> lol that shit is legal in the USA? /facepalm


Hell plenty of retail chains (amazon, walmart, etc.) have been caught upping prices a few weeks before black friday and then having a "50% sale" at regular price.


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## asopala

iamaom said:


> Hell plenty of retail chains (amazon, walmart, etc.) have been caught upping prices a few weeks before black friday and then having a "50% sale" at regular price.



I'm pretty sure there isn't a law against it in the US (yet), but it is pretty unethical nonetheless.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> What sickens me is how people still don't understand that veneers are actually quite expensive if you want highly figured pieces. I mean they're literally paper thin slices of a highly figured billet.









If a veneer looks cheap, it's because it was cut from a cheap piece of wood. It has zero to do with it being veneer vs a solid cap. You're literally only seeing the top layer or three of the wood's cells no matter how thick it is. The "depth" of figuring is an optical illusion, due to how the undulating grain is shorn. You're not actually seeing down "into" the wood.

You're just seeing the ends of grains cut from different directions, just like how you can create patterns in a lawn. Those aren't actual depth differences...just differences in how the light is reflected, and if you move to the other side of the lawn, the colors would be reversed. Just as they do when you move around the wood.


----------



## mbardu

I know people love to jump in when anyone is defending Kiesel, but I've made none of the points that you are harping against.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Uhh, have you played any Balaguers? I've owned like 12 kiesels (still have 2) and I own a Balaguer Tartarus. The kiesels I currently have are not any better quality than the Balaguer. Which is to say they are both excellent quality guitars for the money I paid (sub 2k for the Tartarus and sub 1500 for the zm7). Both of the aforementioned guitars punch far above their price points ime. But implying that the Balaguers are inherently worse because they're more expensive and made in korea is akin to claiming ESP Japan is worse than PRS because they charge more.
> 
> A lot of what you're calling "boutique" options aren't offered by kiesel either (they never do purfling or flush mount straplocks iirc), so those aren't valid examples.
> 
> In terms of construction, you can specify per model whether you want neck thru/bolt/set with balaguer, whereas with kiesel you get what they tell you. I would have loved a neck through zeus but it's not really an option.



I've tried 2 Balaguers yeah. I'm not saying they're bad or anything either, quite the opposite - otherwise I would not even have considered them.
Same thing with my Shecters or my recent LTD 1000. Pretty amazing guitars for the price - and for me Balaguer feels about the same.
The Kiesels (or Carvins) I have and have had (which is a wayyyy bigger sample size - I'll admit) are _a bit_ better in my opinion. Not huge, but fretwork on my recent Kiesels for example is on par with my most recent Suhr. Their finish is nicer too. Does it mean I'm knocking Balaguer/LTD/Schecter? Not at all. And maybe you don't see any quality difference in your experience and I 100% believe you. Plus if you must have a Tartarus type of shape, or the flexibility to build a bolt-on single cut guitar in 25.5" scale (no idea why, but sure...), then you don't have a ton of other options.

And as far as I'm concerned, I get almost the same enjoyment playing my recent LTD as my oldest Carvin ... differences past a certain quality threshold are fairly small nowadays anyway. But then, that's all the more reason why I value _value_, and I was only commenting on Balaguer's _value/competitiveness_ (since this was @ElysianGuitars 's point).

Then the only thing I said is that in terms of _value_, I would not pay 3k$ for what Balaguer offers.
Followed by two _separate _comparisons I made: 1-"Kiesel would give me something equivalent for 600$ less" and 2-"a more boutique guitar doesn't really cost much more". Either of those (separate) options are more competitive and better value than a 3k$ Balaguer in my book. Did I say Kiesel was boutique or offered boutique features? No, you're not being honest.



KnightBrolaire said:


> What sickens me is how people still don't understand that veneers are actually quite expensive if you want highly figured pieces. I mean they're literally paper thin slices of a highly figured billet. There are huge logistical issues with sourcing highly figured billets in sizes necessary for some of Balaguer's shapes (eg the tartarus and the bigger RD type shapes). I've personally spent the better part of a year trying to source ONE highly figured explorer size top for a build. I ended up having to go with a veneer just because the cost for those sizes of pre cut billets can be stupid (like 400$+ for a reallllllllly good one from some suppliers).



Re: the tirade about veneers, it's a bit extreme to be "sickened" by it...but whatever.
I have nothing against veneers, quite the opposite as I made pretty clear here. Why do you need to make yet another misrepresented argument?
It's just a fact that everything else being equal, getting a thick piece of wood _is _going to be more difficult and more expensive than a veneer. The Tartarus case is a bit besides the point, and not related to my example, but if you insist it does sound like you even agree that thick tops are more expensive and more difficult to source...so not sure about your point. Is a thick top useful? Not really, unless you want to really see a figured reveal binding. Worth it? Who's to say? But it's certainly _premium_.
Anyway, in a world where nowadays you don't really gain much playability or sound or reliability past the 1.5/2k$ mark... what I expect from a 3k+ and/or boutique instrument is a no compromise approach and niceties such as actual top and not veneers. Balaguer doesn't offer that.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Then there's the misconception that making things in the USA is inherently going to make them higher quality. Kiesel has shit the bed multiple times over the years with builds (remember the whole roasted maple debacle, the cracked ebony fingerboards, color mismatches, blatantly wrong specs, not properly fixing things they fucked up, etc). Conversely I'm in a number of ERG groups on fb and I've yet to hear people utter similar things about Balaguer. In fact, in the last 2 years I haven't heard anything bad about them at all.
> At the end of the day with near everyone nowadays getting some kind of help from CNC (barring some holdouts), it is the little details that start to stack up and differentiate guitars. Things like slightly dressing the fret ends (which kiesel doesn't do ime), sending progress pictures of your build, and actually having good customer service. You know, stuff like that.



It sounds like you are _a bit _biased _against _Kiesel in trying to exaggerate their faults (I could pick apart any of your examples, and in fact I already have) and the issues that they have had and that I have acknowledged. Your example regarding fretwork is telling; for example, my latest Vader's fretwork is indistinguishable from Suhr. You couldn't tell them apart in a blind test. Balaguer...meh, not necessarily better or worse than my Schecters. And funnily enough, the first review I ever watched of Balaguer was from a guy who had to get a full rebuild before even trying the guitar. The negatives (or "meh") opinions are out there regarding Balaguer, but not only are their fans even more rabid than the Kiesel ones (and that's saying something), but there are also a lot (and I mean a lot) less Balaguers in circulation, so of course there's less noise. Don't get me wrong though.. I'm still not saying they're bad.
And I agree 100% in principle with one of your main points though. A lot of things today past 1.5k are going to be at least good. So it's the small things that are actually going to matter. If the small things are the same, then _I _wouldn't pay _more _for a guitars with _less_. Maybe someone has to if they have to have a Tartarus or that 25.5 scale bolt-on singlecut. But it wouldn't make sense for me. You seem to imply Balaguer gives more and Kiesel less, but I feel the other way. Even if there were pros on both sides and it balanced out though, I still wouldn't see a reason to pay _more _(and btw, to wait longer, and to waive any return possibility).

Oh and I didn't say USA inherently means higher quality. In fact 1-that's not necessarily what drives the quality at Kiesel (decades of focused and improved processes and experience are the more likely source of consistency) and 2-there are enough MIA Gibbies in the wild to put that simplification to bed. I just spoke about USA because 1-I don't see the point in buying Balaguers semi-custom because the owner from the USA is nice just because he has setup a system to design and outsource builds and 2-Since there was a discussion of right vs wrong, bad guys vs good guys, that at least Kiesel demonstrably builds here, pays people correctly, uses good suppliers etc.
But by all means- a few of my imports are Korean, and I couldn't be happier with them, while my current custom is being built in the Netherlands...so I couldn't care less about USA vs quality.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> If a veneer looks cheap, it's because it was cut from a cheap piece of wood. It has zero to do with it being veneer vs a solid cap. You're literally only seeing the top layer or three of the wood's cells no matter how thick it is. The "depth" of figuring is an optical illusion, due to how the undulating grain is shorn. You're not actually seeing down "into" the wood.
> 
> You're just seeing the ends of grains cut from different directions, just like how you can create patterns in a lawn. Those aren't actual depth differences...just differences in how the light is reflected, and if you move to the other side of the lawn, the colors would be reversed. Just as they do when you move around the wood.



Agreed. Especially nowadays, veneers have come a long way and can look amazing.

Still, the argument is not that.
Just like other "fancy features" that make no functional difference at all, a thick top is just something that gives a more premium feel/look/cachet to something higher end or boutique.
When we are just looking for a guitar that looks good and plays perfect and will last a lifetime, any number of Korean imports can do that perfectly fine (I am amazed with the ones I own). Yet we're still all GAS-ing for that guitar with that extra "je ne sais quoi". And I would pay "je ne sais quoi" price for a "je ne sais quoi" guitar...not for a "perfectly fine" guitar.

PS: a lot of Kiesels are on the higher end of the "perfectly fine" side of things too, and that's where they offer the best value when you're in the ~1500$ range. Nothing wrong with that. Today, I would not easily pay Vandermeij or "je ne sais quoi" prices for a Kiesel either. The most stacked build I ever got from them was a tad below that cost, and yet already it had pretty unique borderline stuff (unique one-off finish, one-off handmade binding, piezo, first DC with midi, both of those on a Floyd...).


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mbardu said:


> I know people love to jump in when anyone is defending Kiesel, but I've made none of the points that you are harping against.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried 2 Balaguers yeah. I'm not saying they're bad or anything either, quite the opposite - otherwise I would not even have considered them.
> Same thing with my Shecters or my recent LTD 1000. Pretty amazing guitars for the price - and for me Balaguer feels about the same.
> The Kiesels (or Carvins) I have and have had (which is a wayyyy bigger sample size - I'll admit) are _a bit_ better in my opinion. Not huge, but fretwork on my recent Kiesels for example is on par with my most recent Suhr. Their finish is nicer too. Does it mean I'm knocking Balaguer/LTD/Schecter? Not at all. And maybe you don't see any quality difference in your experience and I 100% believe you. Plus if you must have a Tartarus type of shape, or the flexibility to build a bolt-on single cut guitar in 25.5" scale (no idea why, but sure...), then you don't have a ton of other options.
> 
> And as far as I'm concerned, I get almost the same enjoyment playing my recent LTD as my oldest Carvin ... differences past a certain quality threshold are fairly small nowadays anyway. But then, that's all the more reason why I value _value_, and I was only commenting on Balaguer's _value/competitiveness_ (since this was @ElysianGuitars 's point).
> 
> Then the only thing I said is that in terms of _value_, I would not pay 3k$ for what Balaguer offers.
> Followed by two _separate _comparisons I made: 1-"Kiesel would give me something equivalent for 600$ less" and 2-"a more boutique guitar doesn't really cost much more". Either of those (separate) options are more competitive and better value than a 3k$ Balaguer in my book. Did I say Kiesel was boutique or offered boutique features? No, you're not being honest.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the tirade about veneers, it's a bit extreme to be "sickened" by it...but whatever.
> I have nothing against veneers, quite the opposite as I made pretty clear here. Why do you need to make yet another misrepresented argument?
> It's just a fact that everything else being equal, getting a thick piece of wood _is _going to be more difficult and more expensive than a veneer. The Tartarus case is a bit besides the point, and not related to my example, but if you insist it does sound like you even agree that thick tops are more expensive and more difficult to source...so not sure about your point.
> Anyway, in a world where nowadays you don't really gain much playability or sound or reliability past the 1.5/2k$ mark... what I expect from a 3k+ and/or boutique instrument is a no compromise approach and niceties such as actual top and not veneers. Balaguer doesn't offer that.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you are _a bit _biased _against _Kiesel in trying to exaggerate their faults (I could pick apart any of your examples, and in fact I already have) and the issues that they have had and that I have acknowledged. Your example regarding fretwork is telling; for example, my latest Vader's fretwork is indistinguishable from Suhr. You couldn't tell them apart in a blind test. Balaguer...meh, not necessarily better or worse than my Schecters. And funnily enough, the first review I ever watched of Balaguer was from a guy who had to get a full rebuild before even trying the guitar. The negatives (or "meh") opinions are out there regarding Balaguer, but not only are their fans even more rabid than the Kiesel ones (and that's saying something), but there are also a lot (and I mean a lot) less Balaguers in circulation, so of course there's less noise. Don't get me wrong though.. I'm still not saying they're bad.
> And I agree 100% in principle with one of your main points though. A lot of things today past 1.5k are going to be at least good. So it's the small things that are actually going to matter. If the small things are the same, then _I _wouldn't pay _more _for a guitars with _less_. Maybe someone has to if they have to have a Tartarus or that 25.5 scale bolt-on singlecut. But it wouldn't make sense for me. You seem to imply Balaguer gives more and Kiesel less, but I feel the other way. Even if there were pros on both sides and it balanced out though, I still wouldn't see a reason to pay _more _(and btw, to wait longer, and to waive any return possibility).
> 
> Oh and I didn't say USA inherently means higher quality. In fact 1-that's not necessarily what drives the quality at Kiesel (decades of focused and improved processes and experience are the more likely source of consistency) and 2-there are enough MIA Gibbies in the wild to put that simplification to bed. I just spoke about USA because 1-I don't see the point in buying Balaguers semi-custom because the owner from the USA is nice just because he has setup a system to design and outsource builds and 2-Since there was a discussion of right vs wrong, bad guys vs good guys, that at least Kiesel demonstrably builds here, pays people correctly, uses good suppliers etc.
> But by all means- a few of my imports are Korean, and I couldn't be happier with them, while my current custom is being built in the Netherlands...so I couldn't care less about USA vs quality.


1. High quality veneers are just as expensive as many billets, depending on the species and level of figuring/whether they're backed or not. As spud said, you don't really see more than a few cells deep into the wood with tops, so extra depth is irrelevant, especially when I could just glue a plain maple top under a quilt maple veneer a la PRS (or like I did on my warmoth explorer). Anyone that's cut open billets before will tell you it can be a crapshoot, there is no guarantee you'll get highly figured woods in the size and thicknesses you need. With veneers the builder can better utilize those sheets across multiple builds (or multiple parts of one build), rather than wasting material. 

2. I am not biased against Kiesel, if anything, I think I have a pretty impartial opinion them. I was merely citing examples of fuck ups that I have witnessed unfold here and on their facebook group. Plus I've owned a pile of their guitars, and still think highly of the guitars that I've owned/still own, so I have no reason to bad mouth them unnecessarily. 

3.I never meant that Balaguer was an inherently better deal in terms of bang for your buck. Nobody beats kiesel for that at that price point besides ESP and the other big brands. I was merely saying that from my experience, they are on par with each other in terms of perceived quality. Kiesel's fretwork has never been close to bad ime, but that slight rounding of the fret ends on my tartarus just give it a slight edge. Does it really matter in terms of playability/comfort? no, but it's a nice touch. That was my point, that those kinds of little details help these brands stand above the noise of all the other guys doing just enough. The market is extremely competitive in that 2K+ space, so being nice to customers and sending them progress pics/taking a bit more care on the frets makes a big difference imo. 


4. As far as Balaguer fans being more rabid than Kiesel fans, I disagree. There are definitely a few overzealous individuals I've run into, but the vast majority aren't like that. The only people on par with or worse than rabid Kiesel fanboys are strandberg and ormsby fanboys. I should know, I was in all of their respective fb groups for years just watching the shitshows unfold. The amount of mental gymnastics that strandberg fans in particular will do is hilarious


----------



## mbardu

KnightBrolaire said:


> 1. High quality veneers are just as expensive as many billets, depending on the species and level of figuring/whether they're backed or not. As spud said, you don't really see more than a few cells deep into the wood with tops, so extra depth is irrelevant, especially when I could just glue a plain maple top under a quilt maple veneer a la PRS (or like I did on my warmoth explorer). Anyone that's cut open billets before will tell you it can be a crapshoot, there is no guarantee you'll get highly figured woods in the size and thicknesses you need. With veneers the builder can better utilize those sheets across multiple builds (or multiple parts of one build), rather than wasting material.



_Some _veneers are as expensive as _some _billets, of course. Like the widest most figured veneer ever will be more expensive than a thick piece of plain junk 

But now say that maybe you need a very wide surface for a very wide guitar.
Maybe it's very tough to find a suitable and highly figured billet to produce such a veneer.
But now that you have found it, either you produce one thick top out of it and sell it for 100$ bucks, or instead 5 veneers that you sell for 20$ each.
Which one is the more "premium" choice? Everything else being equal, it's the thick top.

Did I say the extra depth was necessary, or a must-have? Not really.
It _can _be nice for reveal binding. There are also things you just cannot do, or cannot do as well with a veneer, like on the Capa FX-AM for example. Here a veneer would not show the change in grain, you wouldn't see the sides obviously, and you wouldn't be able to make the grain as rough and tactile. You could turn that *T H I C C *top into _a bunch_ of veneers, sure - that would cost less too. And you could have a straight-grained look, probably with opaque binding and flat satin finish. Not even bad. It would still not be the same though.
But all that is far from a must...and I showed how I for one love the veneers we can get today.
The actual top still remains a more "premium" option though. And premium/exclusive/unique/extravagant stuff is what you're looking for if you're paying premium prices, not optimization on the builder's end.



KnightBrolaire said:


> 3.I never meant that Balaguer was an inherently better deal in terms of bang for your buck. Nobody beats kiesel for that at that price point besides ESP and the other big brands. I was merely saying that from my experience, they are on par with each other in terms of perceived quality. Kiesel's fretwork has never been close to bad ime, but that slight rounding of the fret ends on my tartarus just give it a slight edge. Does it really matter in terms of playability/comfort? no, but it's a nice touch. That was my point, that those kinds of little details help these brands stand above the noise of all the other guys doing just enough. The market is extremely competitive in that 2K+ space, so being nice to customers and sending them progress pics/taking a bit more care on the frets makes a big difference imo.



So no worries then. I have nothing against the Balaguer quality either. I was just replying about the suggestion (from previous poster) that Balaguer was as good value as Kiesel, and I just don't believe that's true. Provided a couple of examples to that end.
We'll agree to disagree regarding fretwork, as import Balaguer for me is nothing special, while Kiesel is pretty much top of the heap nowadays - on par with Suhr.
Although I'd be really curious to re-try a J-Custom the day they use stainless steel frets on one, but that's another discussion.



KnightBrolaire said:


> 4. As far as Balaguer fans being more rabid than Kiesel fans, I disagree. There are definitely a few overzealous individuals I've run into, but the vast majority aren't like that. The only people on par with or worse than rabid Kiesel fanboys are strandberg and ormsby fanboys. I should know, I was in all of their respective fb groups for years just watching the shitshows unfold. The amount of mental gymnastics that strandberg fans in particular will do is hilarious



I'll agree regarding Strandberg fans. That's again another level.
My experience with Kiesel or Balaguer fans however is that I _have _had the latter try to _heavily _push a Balaguer model (as if they were the ones selling it) that was not _at all_ close to my wants...and never had a similar experience with Kiesel. Majority of the community is more "well they don't do that particular option or model, so maybe buy something else" in that type of scenario. But hey, I haven't been there in a while and maybe your experience is different. There certainly are dangerous fundamentalists on both sides anyway


----------



## CanserDYI

I feel like I understand and agree with the veneer statements that a good veneer can look awesome, but if i'm only seeing the first few cells, how can I almost always tell if its a cap or a veneer? I feel like I can just call it from a mile away if its a veneer.


----------



## spudmunkey

CanserDYI said:


> I feel like I understand and agree with the veneer statements that a good veneer can look awesome, but if i'm only seeing the first few cells, how can I almost always tell if its a cap or a veneer? I feel like I can just call it from a mile away if its a veneer.



If i had to guess, it's companies attempting to bring out figuring with finishes that might accentute the figuring at the cost of depth, making it look flatter/muddier. 

Some of the most high-end furniture in the history of the world had veneers. If you are building a high-end dresser and want 4 drawers to have matching patterns match, it's likely veneered. And you could put a veneer sliced off a billet right next to the billet, and there's zero difference.


----------



## mbardu

CanserDYI said:


> I feel like I understand and agree with the veneer statements that a good veneer can look awesome, but if i'm only seeing the first few cells, how can I almost always tell if its a cap or a veneer? I feel like I can just call it from a mile away if its a veneer.





spudmunkey said:


> If i had to guess, it's companies attempting to bring out figuring with finishes that might accentute the figuring at the cost of depth, making it look flatter/muddier.
> 
> Some of the most high-end furniture in the history of the world had veneers. If you are building a high-end dresser and want 4 drawers to have matching patterns match, it's likely veneered. And you could put a veneer sliced off a billet right next to the billet, and there's zero difference.



Some reasons that I've thought about, at least for me:

Models with very thick real tops are usually high end, so can usually be afforded more time and care to the finish and final looks. Sometimes it's as simple as that.
Models with very thin veneers cannot really be sanded over and over that much. Yet some finishes use multiple steps with interim sanding to enhance the grain or give the color more depth and variety
Models with real tops can also have real _carves _into that top as a result and:
As you carve through, there is movement and variation in the depths of the wood that is more diverse than a flat veneer
With high-end glossy finishes, the angles that this create can enhance the overall 3D effect of the looks. Most veneers are used on flat tops, so none of that. And even though there are some exceptions, the effect of a veneer on a carve can in and of itself look a bit uncanny.

There are some woods and finishes where this matters more, some less. Anything burl/ebony/spalts I _cannot _see a difference between a veneer and a top.

For the more common flames and quilts, I lost a lot of pictures from pre-2015, but although I'm very happy with some of the veneers I got over the years (and I always try to get the nicest I can in the mass produced stuff ), for one reason or another, the absolute most stunning and "organic" looks I have ever owned have _still_ consistently and noticeably been from actual thick tops, not veneers. Considering the volume, I'm not sure it's entirely random.


----------



## Vyn

KnightBrolaire said:


> Then there's the misconception that making things in the USA is inherently going to make them higher quality.



I feel a bit rude just commenting on this point as the whole of your post was well thought out and argued, however this resonated with me in particular. Made in USA hasn't been the 'gold standard' of guitar production for quite some time now, heck most of the builders that seem to be killing it these days are either small shops outside of the US or larger ones that have outsourced manufacturing to either Indo/Korea and then doing a final level of QC on them back at the shop.


----------



## John

mbardu said:


> I'll agree regarding Strandberg fans. That's again another level.
> My experience with Kiesel or Balaguer fans however is that I _have _had the latter try to _heavily _push a Balaguer model (as if they were the ones selling it) that was not _at all_ close to my wants...and never had a similar experience with Kiesel. Majority of the community is more "well they don't do that particular option or model, so maybe buy something else" in that type of scenario. But hey, I haven't been there in a while and maybe your experience is different. There certainly are dangerous fundamentalists on both sides anyway




For what it’s worth, you’re not alone in those regards. I’ve seen my fair share of super-fans (even a couple running some FB groups) that absolutely reeked of that type of “buy this or else” sort of vibe, even though I am not interested in owning such guitars.
God forbid we have different preferences, on that note. I recall one dork spamming my inbox with the lines of “hurr hurr do you regret not buying it/what you said?”
I haven’t seen the same extent of widespread toxic dumpster fire fanboy content compared to, for example, the Kiesel fan group, Gibson fan groups, other notorious cliques and groups of the like. But there’s a handful of folks who are absolutely trying.


----------



## John

Vyn said:


> I feel a bit rude just commenting on this point as the whole of your post was well thought out and argued, however this resonated with me in particular. Made in USA hasn't been the 'gold standard' of guitar production for quite some time now, heck most of the builders that seem to be killing it these days are either small shops outside of the US or larger ones that have outsourced manufacturing to either Indo/Korea and then doing a final level of QC on them back at the shop.



Jumping in on this topic, but yes absolutely. There’s still a few US builders (ie- other one man shops) that can and will still make a great guitar, but the mental gymnastics involved with equating made in the USA as automatically superior is moronic at best. Plenty folks out of the country, as you said, are doing a great job. Here, there’s plenty of duds either with such a label as ‘made in America’ if not entirely made here, just the same.


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## mbardu

Vyn said:


> I feel a bit rude just commenting on this point as the whole of your post was well thought out and argued, however this resonated with me in particular. Made in USA hasn't been the 'gold standard' of guitar production for quite some time now, heck most of the builders that seem to be killing it these days are either small shops outside of the US or larger ones that have outsourced manufacturing to either Indo/Korea and then doing a final level of QC on them back at the shop.



It's way more important to have experience, repeatability, and a consistent process, with time, good people, supplies, materials and tooling - than to be located in this or that area of the world. Also, if your process is not just "_cut as many corners_ as possible", then size helps as well (otherwise it just goes the opposite direction). Brands as diverse as Vigier, Eastman, Aristides (and I'm hoping Vandermeij ), Anderson etc can produce awesome stuff. At the same time, USA Gibson can produce some big doodoo. Just as well as even Japanese FGN for that matter, at the risk of shocking a bunch of people.

Did anyone actually say "made in USA is always better quality" though? Otherwise this sounds like an empty discussion.

I know @CanserDYI compared the _price _of USA Kiesel vs Import Balaguer, but not to say anything against the quality of Balaguer.... Just more so to show how surprising it is that the price of the latter, which you may intuitively expect to be lower (quality aside, USA has historically been pricier, while we know it is possible to build awesome guitars in South Korea for way less $$); well the price of that Balaguer is actually _significantly higher _- which hurt value quite a bit.

And that's for the price of a _second-tier Balaguer_ too because funny note; even if no poster here has done it, it looks like Balaguer _themselves _do however consider _their _USA range higher quality than the imports...calling it "_apex of what we create here at Balaguer Guitars_"


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## MaxOfMetal

Doesn't Kiesel have a tiered system now with the K Series stuff?


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## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Doesn't Kiesel have a tiered system now with the K Series stuff?



Kinda. The tiering is couple of shapes and finishes where they're trying to milk as much $$$ as possible for no good reason. In terms of actually building instruments and quality, everything goes through the same steps from pieces of wood through cnc, build, assembly, fretwork, electronics, hardware etc...


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## spudmunkey

Yeah, the K series is just a unique shape, pre-bundled with upgrades available on all other models. There's nothing you can get on the K series that you can't get as an upgrade on the DC600, for example, except for the body shape, and 27" scale length on the 6-string (the 6 on the DC600 is 26.5", and ok...so there's one more 6-string where you can get the 27"...the Vader). They come bundled with 7-piece necks that are on any other model, the upgraded tops, the included "Jeff"-done finishes, etc.


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## MaxOfMetal

Still sounds like a quality tier. So you can get a DC600 or a K Series DC600, just like you can get a Select-Custom Growler or a USA Growler.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> Yeah, the K series is just a unique shape, pre-bundled with upgrades available on all other models. There's nothing you can get on the K series that you can't get as an upgrade on the DC600, for example, except for the body shape, and 27" scale length on the 6-string (the 6 on the DC600 is 26.5", and ok...so there's one more 6-string where you can get the 27"...the Vader). They come bundled with 7-piece necks that are on any other model, the upgraded tops, the included "Jeff"-done finishes, etc.



Yeah actually that's a better phrasing. More of a high end option pack than a tiering.


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## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Yeah actually that's a better phrasing. More of a high end option pack than a tiering.



When does one become the other? If you read through the K-Series page it seems to heavily imply that you're ordering a more premium product, which is the point of tiers right?


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## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> When does one become the other? If you read through the K-Series page it seems to heavily imply that you're ordering a more premium product, which is the point of tiers right?



It's more premium because it has more expensive materials, and more labor-intensive finishes. Not that it's "built better", per se.


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## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> When does one become the other? If you read through the K-Series page it seems to heavily imply that you're ordering a more premium product, which is the point of tiers right?



Are you serious, or just trying to find something against Kiesel?

It's clear what_ this would imply_, and I don't really know where you got that idea out of thin air of "*quality *tier", but that's really not the case.
The quality of a base Delos for all intents purposes is the same quality as a K-series for anything functional. The hardware, build, fretwork, electronics etc are all the same, according to even Jeff and his team. The K-series page says it contains _elite features_ such as 7-piece neck, high grade tops and custom finishes as standard.... but those are all "elite" options that you can also get individually on any other model, and that are arguably cosmetics only.

There's no reason to think otherwise really...or at least the only reason I can think of it is trying to find another reason to dislike Kiesel because that's the cool thing to do? I'm surprised though, because that's not something you would do, right  ?

The comparison with the Growler select semi-custom vs USA Heritage is borderline asinine, considering Balaguer _themselves _are proud to say that the two are very different. They list all the ways that the USA are different and better btw. Some of literally their own words: " Utilizing high quality tone woods, USA-made hardware/pickups, and having endless finish possibilities including nitrocellulose laquer, they are the apex of what we create here at Balaguer Guitars.". Custom made hardware, handbuilt in Pennsylvania by Balaguer himself vs outsourced to a small SK shop with OEM parts and by definition a different flow.
This is pretty much the opposite of the Kiesel situation, like point-by-point: K series or other models are built through the same process, in the same batches, using the same woods (prettier ones _by default _on the K - which you can also get on others), same hardware and pickups etc.
Oh and not to mention that all Kiesels are built in the same factory through the same process by the same people. Pretty big difference. And I fully mean the same process and the same people; as you can get handpicked tops or handmade finishes by Jeff as an option without choosing the "K" model (so you also have Jeff work on your guitar if that's your thing). All that is just a cosmetic upcharge like plenty of others.



MaxOfMetal said:


> Still sounds like a quality tier. So you can get a DC600 or a K Series DC600, just like you can get a Select-Custom Growler or a USA Growler.





MaxOfMetal said:


> When does one become the other? If you read through the K-Series page it seems to heavily imply that you're ordering a more premium product, which is the point of tiers right?



There is no K Series DC600. The K series is a different design and model, just like the HK is a different (I'd say worse ) design and model compared to the Vader.

When does it become the other? Well it would become a quality tier if anything quality related was tiered I guess  . But considering the functional quality is the same, the components are the same, the process is the same, and the cosmetic options are available on other models - it's just a different model with a premium options pack.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> It's more premium because it has more expensive materials, and more labor-intensive finishes. Not that it's "built better", per se.



Isn't that how it almost always is though? Is a Sugi Ibanez that much objectively better built than a J.Custom? How about an ESP E-II vs ESP Original? Or is it more about stacking a grouping of available features combined with exclusivity to help create an impression of something more premium?


----------



## spudmunkey

While you can't get a K series DC600, you *can* Get a DC600 Kiesel Special Edition, confusingly.

But even that, it's just a feature bundle + more labor intensive but not "better". It'll be the same guy installing and finishing frets. The same pickups. The same guy in the spray booth. You get an artificially-exclusive 5-layer body and headstock option you can only get this way, and you get a couple build updates from Jeff who picks the woods, and likely does some of the finish work, just like a K series.


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## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Isn't that how it almost always is though? Is a Sugi Ibanez that much objectively better built than a J.Custom? How about an ESP E-II vs ESP Original? Or is it more about stacking a grouping of available features combined with exclusivity to help create an impression of something more premium?



A Sugi Ibanez is probably not that different in objective quality from a J-Custom if the specs are not too different. However a Sugi Ibanez is pretty different from a GIO Ibanez, by virtue of being built with a different process, in a different factory, by different people, using different quality of materials, supplies and hardware.


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## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Are you serious, or just trying to find something against Kiesel?



You brought it up. 



> It's clear what_ this would imply_



And what would that be exactly?



> The quality of a base Delos for all intents purposes is the same quality as a K-series for anything functional. The hardware, build, fretwork, electronics etc are all the same, according to even Jeff and his team. The K-series page says it contains _elite features_ such as 7-piece neck, high grade tops and custom finishes as standard.... but those are all "elite" options that you can also get individually on any other model, and that are arguably cosmetics only.



So what is considered "not elite?"



> There's no reason to think otherwise really...or at least the only reason I can think of it is trying to find another reason to dislike Kiesel because that's the cool thing to do? I'm surprised though, because that's not something you would do, right  ?



What's not to like about Kiesel? I loved my Carvins and Kiesel. Really nice stuff if you're into the vibe.



> The comparison with the Growler select semi-custom vs USA Heritage is borderline asinine, considering Balaguer _themselves _are proud to say that the two are very different. They list all the ways that the USA are different and better btw. Some of literally their own words: " Utilizing high quality tone woods, USA-made hardware/pickups, and having endless finish possibilities including nitrocellulose laquer, they are the apex of what we create here at Balaguer Guitars.".



I'm not disputing that they have different tiers of guitars. 



> This is pretty much the opposite of the Kiesel situation, like point-by-point: K series or other models are built through the same flow, in the same batches, using the same woods (prettier ones _by default _on the K - which you can also get on others), same hardware and pickups etc.



They say that Jeff chooses the materials, is that the same for all builds?



> Oh and not to mention that all Kiesels are built in the same factory through the same process by the same people, in the _same country_. And I fully mean the same process and the same people; as you can get handpicked tops or handmade finishes by Jeff as an option without choosing the "K" model (so you also have Jeff work on your guitar if that's your thing). All that is just a cosmetic upcharge like plenty of others.



Fender makes American Special and American Deluxe (or whatever they're calling each series now) in the same place. 




> There is no K Series DC600. The K series is a different design and model, just like the HK is a different (I'd say worse ) design and model compared to the Vader.



I thought it was said you could get K-Series appointments on other models?



> When does it become the other? Well it would become a quality tier if anything quality related was tiered I guess  . But considering the functional quality is the same, the components are the same, the process is the same, and the cosmetic options are available on other models - it's just a different model with a premium options pack.



So the Jeff selected woods and finishes aren't of a different quality? If it's all the same, why bother?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> A Sugi Ibanez is probably not that different in objective quality from a J-Custom if the specs are not too different. However a Sugi Ibanez is pretty different from a GIO Ibanez, by virtue of being built with a different process, in a different factory, by different people, using different quality of materials, supplies and hardware.



Sugi Ibanez are built with a different process, in a different facility, by different people, using different quality materials, supplies, and in some cases hardware compared to J.Customs. 

I suppose the better comparison would be J.Custom vs. Prestige which are made right next to each other.


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## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> So the Jeff selected woods and finishes aren't of a different quality? If it's all the same, why bother?


It doesn't have to be better quality for it to be a better top _for your build_. There's a set of eyes that looks at the overall build, and can select a top that will look best with your selected model and finishes, the idea is that the end result will be more appealing.

But the K series comes included with a "master grade top". That upgrade is availble on other models. The last time I checked, a similarly-optioned-up DC600 was actually basically the same price as a K series. Or at least within spitting distance of the price. Take a DC600, add the upgraded body/fretboard wood options, the master grade tops, the 7-piece neck, a hand-applied finish, and you'll be just about at the K series price.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> It doesn't have to be better quality for it to be a better top _for your build_. There's a set of eyes that looks at the overall build, and can select a top that will look best with your selected model and finishes, the idea is that the end result will be more appealing.
> 
> But the K series comes included with a "master grade top". That upgrade is availble on other models. The last time I checked, a similarly-optioned-up DC600 was actually basically the same price as a K series. Or at least within spitting distance of the price. Take a DC600, add the upgraded body/fretboard wood options, the master grade tops, the 7-piece neck, a hand-applied finish, and you'll be just about at the K series price.



I hear things like "better", "more appealing", and "upgrade" and think about a better, more appealing tier, an "upgrade" if you would.


----------



## spudmunkey

Fair. I guess it's whether subjective aspects are the same as objective ones. The frets, the clear gloss finish, the glue-ups, the pickups the tuners, etc are all functionally identical. But a buckeye top with more cream when paired with a trans blue finish will be seen as "better" by most folks, even though it isn't necessarily something "better" on-paper.


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## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I hear things like "better", "more appealing", and "upgrade" and think about a better, more appealing tier, an "upgrade" if you would.



Then if that's your point, it's fine to say there is one new "cosmetic" tier. It's a stretch considering it kinda intersects with options you could separately get on other instruments anyway. But ok.

When you say "quality tier" though, most people understand it to mean "things are not going to be built the same way" or "components are not as good". Like in the Balaguer case for instance.

No such thing in the case of Kiesel.
And you ask "what's the point of the K-tier if it's not that different?". Imo, not much. Like most other very expensive cosmetic options they offer, i think they're not really worth it. Precisely because the "quality" of things i value more (build, finish, fretwork, hardware etc) is the same on the least expensive models that are built the same way. I don't care that Jeff didn't pick the top personally or didn't stain it a special blue. The regular tops and finishes are already great as is. Just check the latest arrival in the kiesel thread, worthy of a 5A from any manufacturer without any of those upcharges.

Plus I bet the "Jeff picks top" makes it non returnable, which I always recommend against  .


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sugi Ibanez are built with a different process, in a different facility, by different people, using different quality materials, supplies, and in some cases hardware compared to J.Customs.
> 
> I suppose the better comparison would be J.Custom vs. Prestige which are made right next to each other.



Ha you got me, I was on my phone and not paying enough attention. Yes I was thinking of the regular "poor people" 4k$ J-Custom vs Prestige. Not an 8k$ Sugi. Never owned a Sugi (that I'm aware of) so I rarely think about those.

But then yeah, Sugis built by different people in different shop through different process; Prestige built by different people in different shop through different process; and GIO built by different people in different shop through different process...it wouldn't be crazy to think quality may vary.
Just like Balaguer USA vs SK, built by different people in different shop through different process, you may think quality could be different. Especially when Balaguer _themselves _are specifically touting the former as the apex of their stuff, handmade in small batches with dedicated USA pickups, hardware, woods etc.

Conversely, Kiesel built by the same people in the same shop, same process, along the same assembly line, with same hardware and pickups and electronics - just that for K series, Jeff picks a piece of wood that looks nicer out of the pile in order to go on the top, and applies the color before it goes back to be finished the same way as all other Kiesels...no difference at all or quality tier, because you would get exactly the same "Jeff" treatment on a regular model optioned with "Jeff picks top wood" + "Jeff to apply custom finish".


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I thought that the K series was supposed to be the highest quality and attention to detail. They say that Jeff does the finishes himself. And the top is hand selected and highest quality. I’m not sure if Jeff is any better at finishes than the regular guys, but it’s definitely implied on the website. Otherwise who would care who does the finish or who selects the top? If they aren’t supposed to be of the highest quality they sure are sending the wrong message. I always figured that they spend extra time on these to really make a showcase instrument. And I saw that because it seems either said or implied in communication from the company. Just because they don’t use different electronics, or do something different to the frets, etc doesn’t mean they’re not higher quality. Nicer woods and a nicer finish means higher quality, too. Otherwise we wouldn’t criticize builds/brands that drop the ball on those.


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I thought that the K series was supposed to be the highest quality and attention to detail. They say that Jeff does the finishes himself. And the top is hand selected and highest quality. I’m not sure if Jeff is any better at finishes than the regular guys, but it’s definitely implied on the website. Otherwise who would care who does the finish or who selects the top? If they aren’t supposed to be of the highest quality they sure are sending the wrong message. I always figured that they spend extra time on these to really make a showcase instrument. And I saw that because it seems either said or implied in communication from the company. Just because they don’t use different electronics, or do something different to the frets, etc doesn’t mean they’re not higher quality. Nicer woods and a nicer finish means higher quality, too.



That's the crux of it then - if you consider a Jeff-(or now Jeff and another employee)-only finishes as quality, vs objective stuff like process/construction/fretwork/final poly/hardware as quality. I tend to put that as "looks" and "cosmetics" (subjective) rather than quality (objective). Maybe someone prefers an opaque splatter finish instead of an artic on 7A figured wood -who's to say one is higher quality since we're only talking looks? The _actual _finish is also the same at the end (gloss/satin/raw tone etc), only the looks are different and can be more or less consuming to do for one person or another.

It also becomes arbitrary as to what you call a tier. Since you can get every same cosmetic option on non "K" series builds, do you say a guitar with a 5A is a quality tier. Then a 7A another tier? Jeff-picked K top another? Add 7 piece neck for another group of tiers? With select "Jeff" finish another combination of tiers depending on the top x finish combination? And the K that all those by default is its own separate tier at the top? It's like a tiership of Jeffseus at that point.
That sounds overly complex and I've not seen anything described that way by anyone before @Max. Kiesel describes the K series as a different model with lots of standard options, not as a separate tier. And it makes way more sense at least IMHO to think of it as that one base quality tier (on objective stuff like how the instruments are made, the features and hardware they get), and then everything else are options you can add on top. Some grouped together in packages. Some models have those packages built-in. As has been the case at Carvin/Kiesel for pretty much _decades _at this point. The DC400 anniversary had almost all options built-in and looked "bling", but you could have built it progressively from a base DC127, and objective quality would not have changed along the way - only looks. Same thing here.

Or do people look at say an LTD 1000 series and say the one with a veneer is a different quality than the one from the same factory, but with the Andromeda finish? Sounds weird to me, and I'd say those are of the same intrinsic quality - just look different. Same thing too. 



Hollowway said:


> nicer finish means higher quality, too. Otherwise we wouldn’t criticize builds/brands that drop the ball on those.



There's a difference here between objective quality of the finish, and subjective looks of the guitar.
I would objectively criticize the quality of an Ibanez finish peeling off, or cracking just because you looked at it wrong... Or a bad nitro gone wrong.
I would not however criticize the "quality" of a Kiesel with a rainbow crackle, or a pink sparkle, or a custom Jeff "saber" finish, just because I don't like how they look (and anyway I do like how they look). I'd criticize the quality of the finish if the poly was getting sticky or peeling off or chipping...but all Kiesels are at the same quality level there, and they have none of those issues.


----------



## spudmunkey

All of the hand-dyed/stained finishes like Arctic, Candy, Saber, Venom, faded denim, Cotton Candy, the color-treated fretboards, etc are all done by Jeff, and only Jeff. And all of those finishes are built-in to the base price of a K series. Jeff's said only one other person does any finish work on the K series. I may be mistaken, but I think this person mainly does the sanded-back dark stain finished that go down first, under colors. 

Sort of like their wood-grading: only one person does it, so it's more consistent than it would be if 6-7 people did it.

So there's both a exclusivity due to it's price, as well as it's meant to be the best they can do. It's optional on every model, and bundled in to the K series price.


----------



## Hollowway

spudmunkey said:


> So there's both a exclusivity due to it's price, as well as it's meant to be the best they can do. It's optional on every model, and bundled in to the K series price.


Yeah, that’s the gist I get from the K series description. And I take the “best they can be” to mean the highest “tier.” I guess it just depends on the semantics, and each of our definitions of the word “tier.” I personally would place expensive, cool finishes in a higher tier than a regular paint finish. But that is not an objective thing. (Well, I guess it kind of is, since woods can be more expensive, and the ability to doing a finish is objective.)

It’s academic though, because I ain’t ordering a K series any time soon.


----------



## spudmunkey

Kiesel is probably the brand most riddled with "semantic" challenges, it would seem.

Custom shop? Well...technically...I guess you could say "semi-custom".

So they have quality tiers? No. Well...sort of, with their different availble upgrades....

Online builder? Well...technically yes, but not a visual one...

Not sold in stores? Well...technically the showroom...but then technically that's temporarily (maybe) closed...

Do they offer 3rd party pickups? Yes. Well...technically only certain ones...and only on certain models..


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that’s the gist I get from the K series description. And I take the “best they can be” to mean the highest “tier.” I guess it just depends on the semantics, and each of our definitions of the word “tier.” I personally would place expensive, cool finishes in a higher tier than a regular paint finish. But that is not an objective thing. (Well, I guess it kind of is, since woods can be more expensive, and the ability to doing a finish is objective.)
> 
> It’s academic though, because I ain’t ordering a K series any time soon.



It's semantics and the funny thing is that even "expensive cool finishes" _can_ mean that opaque finish guitars can end up more expensive than figured ones. Like a weird combination of splatter and color shift. Or sparkles. Or maybe also a colored binding let's say. No idea why you'd do that (just like no idea why you buy a k series), but you could.

Well then there's only one guy who can do that type of stuff at kiesel, it's going to cost at least 800$ of options (more than a lot of figured tops), and nobody calls that a different tier of quality. Just a choice of what you think looks good, and how much you're willing to pay for it.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I always crack up at the "hand applied" finish bit with the K series. Uh yeah, all dye jobs/fades are going to be done by hand. They don't just sit on top of the wood like paint/flake, so they need manual application. Plus they're wayyyyy easier than a good paint/flake job (barring certain multi color fades) ime.


----------



## mbardu

KnightBrolaire said:


> I always crack up at the "hand applied" finish bit with the K series. Uh yeah, all dye jobs/fades are going to be done by hand. They don't just sit on top of the wood like paint/flake, so they need manual application. Plus they're wayyyyy easier than a good paint/flake job (barring certain multi color fades) ime.



Almost all builders will tout some form of "hand made" or painstaking process as a form of creating perceived exclusivity for what they want to sell for more $$$. Balaguer included, for their USA stuff.
Yet sometimes it's not even a differentiator, and for most of the work we can all be glad that a majority of guitars use a lot of tools and machines nowadays, and that's how we get consistency.
If the finger on the hand clicked the button to kick off the CNC, it also means its handmade, right  ?


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## RevelGTR

Having received my first Kiesel (and admittedly already having it for sale) it’s been extremely interesting checking out the quality. I’ll say this: a $1350 or whatever Delos is probably the best deal in the guitar industry, and a $4500 blurple djentburst K series is probably the worst. I also think it’s interesting that people compare them with Suhr, core series PRS all the time. I’m really impressed with the quality, but it’s definitely not that elite tier. The paint masking around the neck joint and fretboard looks worse than a $1000 Schecter. Fretwork is impressive, but not as mind blowing as my Suhr. Tuning stability with the Kiesel trem that Jeff claims was bestowed upon the earth from the heavens is slightly worse than my 510 guitars.


----------



## CanserDYI

RevelGTR said:


> Having received my first Kiesel (and admittedly already having it for sale) it’s been extremely interesting checking out the quality. I’ll say this: a $1350 or whatever Delos is probably the best deal in the guitar industry, and a $4500 blurple djentburst K series is probably the worst. I also think it’s interesting that people compare them with Suhr, core series PRS all the time. I’m really impressed with the quality, but it’s definitely not that elite tier. The paint masking around the neck joint and fretboard looks worse than a $1000 Schecter. Fretwork is impressive, but not as mind blowing as my Suhr. Tuning stability with the Kiesel trem that Jeff claims was bestowed upon the earth from the heavens is slightly worse than my 510 guitars.


Mine PERSONALLY feels like the Suhr's I've played in the past, granted, I got nothing painted, all either dyed or just clear coat/tung oil. Hard to mess up, but man. Mine PERSONALLY feels amazing quality, every piece of it feels like there was time spent with it.

Now that being said, I agree I've seen some cruddy ones.


----------



## spudmunkey

KnightBrolaire said:


> I always crack up at the "hand applied" finish bit with the K series. Uh yeah, all dye jobs/fades are going to be done by hand. They don't just sit on top of the wood like paint/flake, so they need manual application. Plus they're wayyyyy easier than a good paint/flake job (barring certain multi color fades) ime.


 
Perhaps, but from a manufacturing efficiency perspective, sprayed finishes are *way* faster, once you've got a process worked out for it.


----------



## RevelGTR

CanserDYI said:


> Mine PERSONALLY feels like the Suhr's I've played in the past, granted, I got nothing painted, all either dyed or just clear coat/tung oil. Hard to mess up, but man. Mine PERSONALLY feels amazing quality, every piece of it feels like there was time spent with it.
> 
> Now that being said, I agree I've seen some cruddy ones.



Not trying to be a jerk or invalidate your thoughts, but it’s pretty common that I see “well, my Kiesel is just as good as the (Suhr, PRS, ESP Original, Fender Custom Shop etc.) that I played. It’s pretty rare that I see someone who actually owns and has spent significant time with both claim that the Kiesel is as good or better. Your build looks amazing and it’s awesome that it you’re so happy with it. I’m just saying that with the Kiesel and my Suhr both sitting in front of me it’s pretty clear which one had more attention to detail.


----------



## spudmunkey

Honest question, and I'll admit that it's coming from a sample size of just two: from what year was your kiesel? I ask because my 2020 is an improvement over my 2016, in terms of objective build quality aspects.


----------



## mbardu

RevelGTR said:


> Having received my first Kiesel (and admittedly already having it for sale) it’s been extremely interesting checking out the quality. I’ll say this: a $1350 or whatever Delos is probably the best deal in the guitar industry, and a $4500 blurple djentburst K series is probably the worst. I also think it’s interesting that people compare them with Suhr, core series PRS all the time. I’m really impressed with the quality, but it’s definitely not that elite tier. The paint masking around the neck joint and fretboard looks worse than a $1000 Schecter. Fretwork is impressive, but not as mind blowing as my Suhr. Tuning stability with the Kiesel trem that Jeff claims was bestowed upon the earth from the heavens is slightly worse than my 510 guitars.



I'll agree with you that a 4/5k Kiesel is definitely not worth it. Sub 2k$ is definitely their sweet spot. That was the whole 2-pages debate above. You're paying 2/3k more for the _same _tier of guitar that's just as solid, plays and sounds the same, same hardware, built the same way...just to make it look (sometimes questionably) fancy. Why?
Then again, I'd similarly say a Suhr at 5 to 7k is rarely "worth it" either, but whatever floats your boat.

I like your comment about 1000$ Schecters because I happen to love 1000$ Schecters (especially if you can get them for 6/700$). Also applies to 1000$ Korean LTDs etc etc. Incidentally, I've seen some of those with neater finish lines than even some Maryland PRS, so make of that what you will. My latest EC-1000 I just received is literally perfect in terms of finish. Korea has come a long way.

As for the trem, that sounds like the nitpicks of nitpicks. Hipshot or Gotoh ... we're talking high grade first party hardware, and at that level it's more personal preference vs quality or performance. Issues with tuning stability are much more likely to be due to a nut that needs to be tweaked for your exact string gauge or setup. Happens to Suhrs as well.



RevelGTR said:


> Not trying to be a jerk or invalidate your thoughts, but it’s pretty common that I see “well, my Kiesel is just as good as the (Suhr, PRS, ESP Original, Fender Custom Shop etc.) that I played. It’s pretty rare that I see someone who actually owns and has spent significant time with both claim that the Kiesel is as good or better. Your build looks amazing and it’s awesome that it you’re so happy with it. I’m just saying that with the Kiesel and my Suhr both sitting in front of me it’s pretty clear which one had more attention to detail.



At least it's nice to see people like @CanserDYI make comparisons with _some _basis.
The more common attitude of other posters here is usually "I have never played a Suhr or a core PRS or a Kiesel, but I'm gonna decide that Kiesel is poop because I don't like Jeff".
I can counter your anecdote with my anecdotes and the fretwork on my most recent Kiesels is just as good as any of the Suhr I've owned in the last 4/5 years, and better than most PRS Core I've recently owned. And that's with at least some sample size (5 Suhrs, same for PRS Core, at least twice as many Kiesels), not just a couple of guitars. Not even getting into some features some people see as downgrades on the PRS compared to either Kiesel or Suhr, or the fact that what they call "10-top" is often laughable.

Now, nobody is saying Kiesel is always better than Suhr or are going to have _more _attention to detail. You _are _more likely to get a consistent 99% out of a Suhr or Anderson than Kiesel. And sometimes you'll get a 100% perfect. Kiesel, sometimes you'll get a 99%, sometimes a 95%. Sometimes you'll get a "meh" Kiesel, but I've played "meh" Andersons too.
Still- if you asked me sight unseen to choose a random Modern or a random Theos for free, sure I'd get the Modern anyday. Design is a bit better, and it's just that much more likely to be perfect.
But the fact that you can even get a Kiesel in the same leagues as a Suhr for half the price to your specs; and yet still return it if the particular one you get is not _quite _there or _quite _to your liking (and try again if you so choose) is pretty remarkable. If you get a custom Anderson or Suhr or Jackson or Gibson and they're just "meh"...well they're yours top keep.. Plus the fact that you can get even get to affordable _Suhr-level of quality_ on things like a 7-string headless neck-through guitar with a piezo is an amazing option to have.


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## CanserDYI

Yeah PRS 10 tops and regular flames dont look any different to my eye 9 times out of 10 .


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## John

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah PRS 10 tops and regular flames dont look any different to my eye 9 times out of 10 .



As much as I like mine as they've been good to me, I wouldn't hesitate in calling the brand out for that either. The tops on my core guitars have ample figuring and I got to skip out on burning extra just for that 10 top stamping on the headstock, all of which are fine by me.


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## RevelGTR

Just to be clear, I’m not a Kiesel hater at all. I’m not saying “I got one and it SUCKED”, more “I got one and it was great but not perfect.” If I can put together an HD build in the $1800 range I’ll probably pull the trigger.


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## _MonSTeR_

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah PRS 10 tops and regular flames dont look any different to my eye 9 times out of 10 .



I don’t pay much attention to PRS of late, but I have to say that the 10 tops we used to get in the U.K. at least, used to mean something. I’m not if that’s just because Europe used to get the second round draft of all PRS guitars or if the quality levels have changed... I’d definitely be interested to know who it was that was being short changed


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## Randy

13:05


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## Emperor Guillotine

So, Josh Travis is with Kiesel now.

And he has helped them (allegedly) design a 9-string Aries model.


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## MaxOfMetal

Emperor Guillotine said:


> So, Josh Travis is with Kiesel now.
> 
> And he has helped them (allegedly) design a 9-string Aries model.



It's already out, and in pictures of him playing the first ones, I think we're a little past "allegedly". 






The Carvin / Kiesel thread


Going by his Wikipedia page. He became a mastering engineer and became more interested in other genres of music. Then I guess, marriage, kids etc took priority for a while till he came back on the scene Kinda like how Jimmy Page declined the Yardbirds gig to learn production... then jumped back...




www.sevenstring.org


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## CanserDYI

I had a great experience last time I bought a Kiesel. Chris Hong is a fantastic dude that helped me out even on days he was off. Same with Albert their tech. 

Personally the knobs I could get over, I'd be a little annoyed by the ignored request for a new delos pickguard, but I don't know the context of how he asked for it, but frankly that didn't seem to be a huge deal taken at surface value.


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## Randy

CanserDYI said:


> I had a great experience last time I bought a Kiesel. Chris Hong is a fantastic dude that helped me out even on days he was off. Same with Albert their tech.
> 
> Personally the knobs I could get over, I'd be a little annoyed by the ignored request for a new delos pickguard, but I don't know the context of how he asked for it, but frankly that didn't seem to be a huge deal taken at surface value.


Sounded like it was less about what he didn't get, more about the absolute shit show lack of communication which lines up with a lot of experiences in here and elsewhere.


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## Hoss632

mbardu said:


> I like your comment about 1000$ Schecters because I happen to love 1000$ Schecters (especially if you can get them for 6/700$). Also applies to 1000$ Korean LTDs etc etc. Incidentally, I've seen some of those with neater finish lines than even some Maryland PRS, so make of that what you will. My latest EC-1000 I just received is literally perfect in terms of finish. Korea has come a long way.


Funny thing that you said this. I actually struggle with if I want to do a Kiesel, or just get a high end 1000-1600 dollar imported Schecter or LTD model. My Schecter that I have now is a 700 dollar model (current price I got if on sale for 400 new in 2018), and it's from World Music Korea. So in my eyes given how good this guitar has been and how solid other Schecters and high end LTD's have been that i've tried, I really don't have an issue spending the money on them. At the same time with the Kiesel at least being able to pick the color, pups and woods is appealing.


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## bigcupholder

Hoss632 said:


> At the same time with the Kiesel at least being able to pick the color, pups and woods is appealing.


Being able to choose the pickups on a Kiesel is only a plus if you like their extremely limited selection of pickups. The upcharge for sending in your own pickups is a complete ripoff


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## Hoss632

bigcupholder said:


> Being able to choose the pickups on a Kiesel is only a plus if you like their extremely limited selection of pickups. The upcharge for sending in your own pickups is a complete ripoff


I do agree. Usually I think other shops if you request a pick up that they don't generally carry they just upcharge for having to order it, at least based on what I've read. I could be 100% wrong. As far as Kiesel's pick up selection goes, I've heard almost all of their pups, and between their Berylliums, illusionist, thorium and holdsworth's I know i can get a tone I like out of em.


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## Zander of Puppets

Hoss632 said:


> Funny thing that you said this. I actually struggle with if I want to do a Kiesel, or just get a high end 1000-1600 dollar imported Schecter or LTD model. My Schecter that I have now is a 700 dollar model (current price I got if on sale for 400 new in 2018), and it's from World Music Korea. So in my eyes given how good this guitar has been and how solid other Schecters and high end LTD's have been that i've tried, I really don't have an issue spending the money on them. At the same time with the Kiesel at least being able to pick the color, pups and woods is appealing.


I actually have a $1,800 dollar Kiesel DC700 and just got a Schecter KM-7 mk-iii a few days ago so I feel I can chime in with my experience. If you are going Kiesel, be prepared to have a ton of patience. When I finally got mine after months of waiting I had to send it back 2 times due to paint chips and when I got it back the 3rd time I noticed a very slight grounding issue but kept it because I was tired of waiting. You might get lucky and not have any issues at all but their customer service and QC leaves something to be desired. That being said, I am happy with the final result and they will fix things if it comes with defects, you'll just have to wait weeks at a time with no communication for them to do so. Besides a few minor issues the overall build quality, especially the fretwork and feel of the neck, is really great. Their guitars are beautiful and it's cool to get something both unique and made in USA for under 2k. I just don't know if I would order from them again after my personal experience. 

With that being said the, Schecter holds it's own in terms of playability and quality. I would say the overall build quality feels just slightly better for the Kiesel but the Schecter is no slouch. Both have great fretwork but the Kiesel slightly wins out there and the knobs/switches on the Schecter just don't feel quite as solid. The necks for both are about equal imo. The Schecter is significantly lighter (which I prefer for playing standing) despite both being swamp ash and neck-through. The nice thing about Schecter is you can find them all over the place to test out or buy in great condition used. I was able to snag the Schecter used for $1000, which makes it the much better deal considering how well it's built and all the high end specs it has. I would say that's the way to go unless you absolutely want something brand new or want something more unique/custom.


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## CanserDYI

Man I must have just had a one off experience and you all make me not want to roll the dice for a second Kiesel.


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## Zander of Puppets

CanserDYI said:


> Man I must have just had a one off experience and you all make me not want to roll the dice for a second Kiesel.


My guess is the majority of people have had a good experience since they would most likely be out of business otherwise but the odds of having a bad experience with them are probably also higher than you would find with other custom shops/high end guitar manufacturers.


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## olejason

Hoss632 said:


> Funny thing that you said this. I actually struggle with if I want to do a Kiesel, or just get a high end 1000-1600 dollar imported Schecter or LTD model. My Schecter that I have now is a 700 dollar model (current price I got if on sale for 400 new in 2018), and it's from World Music Korea. So in my eyes given how good this guitar has been and how solid other Schecters and high end LTD's have been that i've tried, I really don't have an issue spending the money on them. At the same time with the Kiesel at least being able to pick the color, pups and woods is appealing.



For another perspective, I have a Schecter KM7 mk-iii and an Osiris 7. The Kiesel actually cost several hundred bucks less than the Schecter because I went with a barebones build, the only upcharge options being a roasted neck and black ebony fretboard. I didn't call in my order or ask a bunch of questions or anything like that so I can't speak to the 'customer experience.' I think they're pretty much on par with one another as far as build quality even though they play and feel quite different. Fretwork is pretty similar, very good on both. I go back and forth on which I prefer mostly due to one being headless and the pickups being very different (Fluence vs. Lithium). I'd be perfectly fine only owning one or the other, they're both really good.


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## Dexterford




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## Avedas

CanserDYI said:


> Man I must have just had a one off experience and you all make me not want to roll the dice for a second Kiesel.


I've done 3 builds with Keith doing everything over email. I asked him a ton of questions on all of them and they all came out perfectly (JK they gave me the wrong color pickups in my Delos, but I was going to replace them anyway). They gave me some stupid nice pieces of wood on my last two builds without asking for it. I don't have a single bad thing to say about the customer experience or product. I'd order another from them today if I needed another guitar.


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## CanserDYI

Avedas said:


> I've done 3 builds with Keith doing everything over email. I asked him a ton of questions on all of them and they all came out perfectly (JK they gave me the wrong color pickups in my Delos, but I was going to replace them anyway). They gave me some stupid nice pieces of wood on my last two builds without asking for it. I don't have a single bad thing to say about the customer experience or product. I'd order another from them today if I needed another guitar.


The vanquish in my profile pic is my only one, and it was an absolutely amazing experience from ordering to seeing my guitar featured on their page, to opening the box and finding that it looks just like the fabulous picture they took and edited the contrast on. I really want an 8 string from them now as I don't play 7's much any more, and at this point I wouldnt hesitate either, but I just keep reading "horror" stories.


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## electriceye

John said:


> As much as I like mine as they've been good to me, I wouldn't hesitate in calling the brand out for that either. The tops on my core guitars have ample figuring and I got to skip out on burning extra just for that 10 top stamping on the headstock, all of which are fine by me.



The f'ed up thing is that those fancier tops are costing PRS, MAYBE, an extra $25. There's no shortage of figged billets, even for nobodies like me. But they get away with charging, literally, thousands extra for them. In all honesty, I'd do that, too, if I could....


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## GtrSlinger8

electriceye said:


> The f'ed up thing is that those fancier tops are costing PRS, MAYBE, an extra $25. There's no shortage of figged billets, even for nobodies like me. But they get away with charging, literally, thousands extra for them. In all honesty, I'd do that, too, if I could....


I am going to disagree here. You are paying for hand picking AND the end product. There is a lot that can happen in the sanding and shaping to turn a 10 top into something less. I think a lot if the better "less tgan 10" probably started out as 10 tops that didn't end up being 10 after processing. While I will agree that $1000 or more might be too much of an upgrade cost, there are plenty of luthiers that charge this and more but do not have the wood pile that PRS has. $25 more isn't even close to the cost difference from a supplier let alone the markup needed to pay the bills.


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