# Extended Range Racism



## abandonist (Feb 17, 2014)

Not 'racism' per se, but you know what I mean.

I asked around some friends for a good tech here in town that has experience on 8s and the such. One of the folks got all small peen and spouted "no one wants to work on your 17 string piccolo fan fret craziness". 

I mean, sure, he's just being a dick. No worries. 

But that's not the first time I've had to defend my playing choices. 

Have any of y'all run into things like this among players?


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## MemphisHawk (Feb 17, 2014)

Extended Range misoneism. 

Take it as a nice favor that he declined. He's pretty sure he can't do whatever it is you want, so he's not even going to try. In the end, both of you will be happier that he didn't try to work on it.


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## MaCkCiTy (Feb 17, 2014)

Yeah, but they've all been bass players getting bitchy!


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## abandonist (Feb 17, 2014)

Oh it wasn't even him who was going to do the work. I was asking for a recommendation of someone to go to.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 17, 2014)

I remember this one time I went into a bass store in Melbourne and was like "okay, I want to buy this bass, and I have these strings here for it, can you please set this up for drop E?" and they all but laughed me out of the store for it. They had no idea why I wanted to do this and upon explaining they still didn't understand.

When I picked up the bass with the new strings the nut had been cut horribly and the bridge was a complete joke in terms of its setup. Without going into a ton of detail the saddles were all over the place and the B string (EBEA) was sticking way out compared to all the others. I actually couldn't believe how much they had tried NOT to do this set up properly.

Recently I had this bass taken to get set up again by someone who wasn't a total wanker, and he was pretty unimpressed. It's safe to say that I won't be going back to that store and spending my money with them.

There have been a few occasions at least where idiots have looked at my 8 string and said "why not just play a bass?" which is both funny and insulting to me. Could it possibly be the reason I don't play a bass is because... hold on... wait for it... I'm in actual fact a guitarist? I wouldn't go up to Black Tongue and say to them "hey man, you tune too low, why don't you play a bass instead?" because it's literally the dumbest thing you can say, possibly even dumber than "so do you play rah rah music?" and I get that one a fair bit, too.

Yes, of course I play this rah rah style of music you refer to. It's hip with all the kids these days.


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## straightshreddd (Feb 17, 2014)

Not exactly, but I did ask a guitar center employee for an allen key so I could unlock the nut of a floyd equipped ltd. He asked why and I told him that the fine tuner reached its limit and I wanted to drop tune it. He then laughed in the douchiest way possible and says "Drop D is so overrated." Some people are just assholes.


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## The Reverend (Feb 17, 2014)

I've had both positive and negative experiences with ERGs. One of my professors was incredibly impressed with my seven, and was really excited about the chording options and shit. On the other hand, I'm so tired of dealing with bullshit when I try to buy strings that I just order them online, now. 

"Uh, I think you might have to look at bass strings, man, I think .58 is the biggest you need on a GUITAR." 

Then again, I also get flack for using drop tunings, or just down-tuning in general. I think the whole concept of telling people that they're using these open-ended tools meant to create the 'wrong' way is insipid. A guitar is meant to be a vehicle to express yourself, and whatever it does or doesn't have, whatever you do or don't do to it, it can never really be 'wrong' in that sense.

After all, I could use a pen to express myself with a letter, or I could stab you in the eye. Both equally valid messages, I'd say.


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## somn (Feb 17, 2014)

Everyone at the local Guitar center here tend to be nice except for one guy who tends to be an ass and gives me issues for playing a 9 string 30 scale guitars. Usually the play a bass/harp argument and all that jazz. What I did was show him a 7 string bass afterwards and some other ERBs to which I said I should be grabbing one of these soon as an upgrade from my old six string bass. I loved the blank face he had, what else could he say really. I play both haha


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## simonXsludge (Feb 17, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> I wouldn't go up to Black Tongue and say to them "hey man, you tune too low, why don't you play a bass instead?" because it's literally the dumbest thing you can say


Now Black Tongue are not exactly an overly "musical" example. More one, that would most likely confirm most people's prejudices about super low tunings.


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## sevenstringj (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm stealing that. From now on, I'm telling people I play the piccolo.


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## oniduder (Feb 17, 2014)

i hate racism!

especially when it's concerning my guitar!!!!111oneone

but yeah i get flack every once in a while as well


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## Espresto (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm a bassist 







There's only so low a man can go. If any of you people tune below E1 I may be forced to take....drastic measures.


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## Obsidian Soul (Feb 17, 2014)

I went to sell one of my two sixers,and the guy asked why was I selling it.I told him I was trying to acquire additional funds for a seven string guitar.Then,he asked me if I mastered six strings yet.I just said no.It's true that I suck,but I'm not some stereotypical kid that wants an ERG to djent.At least he recommended me to put it on Craigslist to get the best price out of my guitar.


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## MemphisHawk (Feb 17, 2014)

I told my friend I was thinking about getting a 9 string and he said that my song writing should be 50% better than someone with a normal guitar.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

you have to understand that most people, including musicians, are dumb, narrow-minded and uncreative. 90% of the guitarists I've come across play Fender and Gibson, they use the same blues licks they used 10 years ago and that's it. Ibanez RGs are extreme, floyds are extreme, 24 frets are extreme, everything that hasn't been around since the 1950's is extreme. I don't find 7-string guitars in shops here (France), when I ordered one the shop owner (!!!!!!) asked me why I didn't just tune a sixer down to B, 8-strings are alien technology and "why would you play bass on a guitar", fanned frets are totally unfathomable, etc etc

the other day I watched a video about a guy working on microtonal guitar designs. He said, the only music genres that constantly strive to evolve towards something new and untested are jazz and death metal. This guy was so right that I'd give him an award. All the other genres aren't about extremes, they're about repeating what's already been done over and over and over again. So they don't need new instruments either.

We're a very small community on a thin edge of the music world. we're the guys everyone looks at and thinks "what a bunch of weirdos", much like when you were the only boy in high school with long hair and everyone thought you punched babies in the streets because of that Metallica t-shirt you were wearing.

Don't try to change people, don't try to make them understand. do your own shit in your own community and your fans shall be the open-minded people that you want as fans. forget the others.


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## insanebassninja (Feb 17, 2014)

Espresto said:


> I'm a bassist
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This sounds like me. Sometimes... Other times its like I don't even care. This is why am tuning my 8 string into a High A for.


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## vansinn (Feb 17, 2014)

Yikes yikes yikes, do forget about such.
It's just because they don't understand the importance of jazz influence 

A dude I know looked at my instruments and gear, and exasperated "why not just get a rear guitar" - he keeps his Martin in the car trunk, also during winter, and claims guitars are supposed to be scratched up by belt latches, 'nuf said..


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 17, 2014)

range-ism


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## House74 (Feb 17, 2014)

I never forget one of my first 8 string experiences. I walk into a local music store here, and ask for a .80 string for my 8 string and the guy looks back at me with dumb founded confusion and says, " What, you mean like a bass?" ... sigh

That and the 7/8 string section at my local guitar center that has literally NO guitars in it....


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## House74 (Feb 17, 2014)

Oh, and general harassment from my drummer asking when I am bringing in my electric harp lol


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## jephjacques (Feb 17, 2014)

this is why I record by myself and only buy gear online


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## xzyryabx (Feb 17, 2014)

In my opinion, the hate is more towards the music that is mainly played by the ER crowd, and by extension towards the instruments themselves.
Generally speaking, ERGs tend to be used by younger guitarists, who are not very proficient musicians, to play a very niche type of music, and neither these musicians nor their music is respected in many musical circles; non-metal ppl associate them w/ metal, and the metal crowd in general feel that this new wave of music is ruining the genre.


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## Grindspine (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't consider 7 strings or even 8 strings to be "bleeding edge" new at all. I know seven strings have been around for much longer than most people realize. Production 7 strings for metal have been pretty much mainstream (IMO) since Ibanez started producing the Universe over twenty years ago. It isn't impossible to find hardware for 8 strings either.

But, as stated above, many musicians are pretty set in their ways. Many of the general rock & blues crowd stick to the basic electric guitar designs that have been around for sixty years or so.

As far as guitar stores go, I usually talk to the pro audio guys at the local Guitar Center instead of talking to the guitar guys; the guitar guys all want to tell everyone about how their band is going to "make it". 

I am just happy that I found an Ibanez RGD 7 strings that shares a lot of the features that I had on my main old modded B.C. Rich six string.


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## chrisxrome (Feb 17, 2014)

The thing that annoys me most about this is the stigma believing we downtune to drop Z and only play the lowest string, open for 25 minutes. When the majority stick to a standard tuning, with additional low strings.

They're called eXtEnDeD rAnGe GuItArS yOu IdIoTz!!!111! WE WANT TO EXTEND OUR RANGE FOR ADDITIONAL CHORDAL VOICING AND SUCH. 

All these guys with sixers thinking they do the same thing with their horribly set up, downtuned guitars - y'all need a clip round the ear and a firm education. I'll direct them here next time. Guarantee they'll pine for a custom 8, paired with a AxeFx ultra within a month.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

Grindspine said:


> I don't consider 7 strings or even 8 strings to be "bleeding edge" new at all. I know seven strings have been around for much longer than most people realize. Production 7 strings for metal have been pretty much mainstream (IMO) since Ibanez started producing the Universe over twenty years ago. It isn't impossible to find hardware for 8 strings either.
> 
> But, as stated above, many musicians are pretty set in their ways. Many of the general rock & blues crowd stick to the basic electric guitar designs that have been around for sixty years or so.
> 
> ...



7-string guitars have indeed been mass produced for over 2 decades and people do know they exist, usually they just stay away from them because they're considered to be only good for metal... I can understand that most people wouldn't know how to use the extra string/range. People just ignore 7-strings, cause it's not an instrument for them.

8-string guitars really haven't been mass-produced for long. and unlike 7-string guitars, there's no music written on 8-strings that became "mainstream". many people know Steve Vai and his sevens, non-metal people have heard of Korn cause Korn isn't very extreme, Dream Theater isn't extreme either... there's no 8-string music that comes close to the mainstream yet, so people find 8-strings weird. Same goes for 9+ strings and oviously fanned instruments


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## Andromalia (Feb 17, 2014)

Trying to order anything heavier than 52 in backwater Ireland was a chore.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

chrisxrome said:


> The thing that annoys me most about this is the stigma believing we downtune to drop Z and only play the lowest string, open for 25 minutes. When the majority stick to a standard tuning, with additional low strings.
> 
> They're called eXtEnDeD rAnGe GuItArS yOu IdIoTz!!!111! WE WANT TO EXTEND OUR RANGE FOR ADDITIONAL CHORDAL VOICING AND SUCH.
> 
> All these guys with sixers thinking they do the same thing with their horribly set up, downtuned guitars - y'all need a clip round the ear and a firm education. I'll direct them here next time. Guarantee they'll pine for a custom 8, paired with a AxeFx ultra within a month.



we don't play our guitars like others. look at the shredders who do double-hand tapping and expect "in my day, we played guitar with a pick" comments. also, people see "bass octave" and think "bass", not considering that a low F # on guitar doesn't sound like an F# on a bass at all. most of it is just pure ignorance and/or unwillingness to THINK.

Another thing is tunings... ERGs allow to experiment with unusual tunings without losing the range and possibilities of a standard guitar. When mainstream players think tunings, there's standard, dropped and open major chords (for slide guitar) and that's all. then you have us weirdos always trying new tunings to play something that's never been played before, that's a lot of unknown that many people can't ssociate with because they simply lack curiosity. for these people, a guitar should sound like a fender through a fender amp and play blues-rock. I'm stereotyping but in the end it's a stereotype that's vastly represented out there.


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## Obsidian Soul (Feb 17, 2014)

I think a lot of you here are hypocrites for this exact reason.It seems that you guys know about the people who think Drop D is the lowest a guitar should go,but do you all realize that you all carry the same mentality when Ibanez and Schecter introduced their nine strings?A lot of the comments made by the ERG crowd is synonymous with what the mainstream people say.

I'm sorry if I offended anybody,but I like to play devil's advocate to introduce different perspectives instead of having a hive mind.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

Obsidian Soul said:


> I think a lot of you here are hypocrites for this exact reason.It seems that you guys know about the people who think Drop D is the lowest a guitar should go,but do you all realize that you all carry the same mentality when Ibanez and Schecter introduced their nine strings?A lot of the comments made by the ERG crowd is synonymous with what the mainstream people say.
> 
> I'm sorry if I offended anybody,but I like to play devil's advocate to introduce different perspectives instead of having a hive mind.




I typically don't do that... when Ibanez introduced the 9-string prototypes I was like, straight scale 9-string doesn't seem very practical. that's all. it's nothing I would use myself, but I won't ruin the fun for others either. EtherealEntity is one of my best buddies and he has this infamous fanned fret 9-string custom ViK, I'd never find any use for such an instrument but I don't piss him off 24-7 "just because" he likes something I don't.

People need to relax their anal sphincters in the music industry, cause too much butthurt ain't good for anyone.


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## rectifryer (Feb 17, 2014)

I have canned lines for this bullshit. 

My favorite is "Yeah it's got a six string built in actually"

Another is

Me: "Its the same amount of notes"
Guitar center employee: "How so?"
Me: "There are only 12 notes" (Barring microtonal arrangements)

Guitar center employee: "How many strings do you need?"
Me: "It's the same range as a viola"

These are all true occurrences. People do not know why the convention they use works, so they criticize everyone else who doesn't follow it.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

rectifryer said:


> "Yeah it's got a six string built in actually"





repped ! gonna use this from now on


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## rectifryer (Feb 17, 2014)

Nagash said:


> repped ! gonna use this from now on


I got it from this forum but I don't remember who haha.


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## GunnarJames (Feb 17, 2014)

Saw a video on YouTube that I wish I remembered who the dude was or what band he was in, but he was explaining why he chose to go for an 8 string instead of a 7 on a Mayones he got. He explained how he is mainly a 7 string player and a majority of the songs his band plays are done using only 7 strings, but he has that extra range with the 8 should he ever need it. 

This is the same mentality I have about my 8 string. I've always been a 6 string player for the most part, and play my 8 like I would a 6. I have it tuned with a low B and high G# and have the extra range should I need it. I don't play anything that's even close to being heavy or jazz. That's how I've always explained it though, I can play what anyone on a 6 plays but have the extra range should I need it. With the low B, I don't have to put my 6 in drop D. With the high G#, I don't have to play as high up on the neck for a lot of lead stuff. And I have two extra strings to add depth to chords if I want to. 

Seems silly to me that people dismiss these ideas.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 17, 2014)

GunnarJames said:


> Saw a video on YouTube that I wish I remembered who the dude was or what band he was in, but he was explaining why he chose to go for an 8 string instead of a 7 on a Mayones he got. He explained how he is mainly a 7 string player and a majority of the songs his band plays are done using only 7 strings, but he has that extra range with the 8 should he ever need it.
> 
> This is the same mentality I have about my 8 string. I've always been a 6 string player for the most part, and play my 8 like I would a 6. I have it tuned with a low B and high G# and have the extra range should I need it. I don't play anything that's even close to being heavy or jazz. That's how I've always explained it though, I can play what anyone on a 6 plays but have the extra range should I need it. With the low B, I don't have to put my 6 in drop D. With the high G#, I don't have to play as high up on the neck for a lot of lead stuff. And I have two extra strings to add depth to chords if I want to.
> 
> Seems silly to me that people dismiss these ideas.



Was it Pete Graves? (I think that's his name.) He had a green flame mayones. I think his band name is red seas fire. He's a super cool dude, and that green Mayones was one of the reasons I got into 8's. I think he ended up getting rid of it to another member on this forum. (And I think it was traded again after that.)


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## HurrDurr (Feb 17, 2014)

Yeah, That was PeteyG's video on why he went with 8-strings on that emerald beauty of his by Mayones.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 17, 2014)

I actually had two surprisingly positive experiences regarding ERGs yesterday. I took my guitar with me to work since I was picking up a new amp after, and without even seeing the guitar or knowing what kind of music I play the first question out of one coworker was "How many strings does it have?" followed by "What's the highest number of strings you play?" He thought it was cool as f*ck that I played 7 and 8 string guitars, even though he doesn't play himself. The guy I bought the amp off of is 100% a 6-string player, but he loved the idea of a 7 string Strat.

Was really nice to get such positive reactions.


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## GunnarJames (Feb 17, 2014)

Señor Voorhees;3930579 said:


> Was it Pete Graves? (I think that's his name.) He had a green flame mayones. I think his band name is red seas fire. He's a super cool dude, and that green Mayones was one of the reasons I got into 8's. I think he ended up getting rid of it to another member on this forum. (And I think it was traded again after that.)





HurrDurr said:


> Yeah, That was PeteyG's video on why he went with 8-strings on that emerald beauty of his by Mayones.



Yes! I feel bad for drawing a blank on his name/band, but I checked out a few of his videos and dug a lot of it. Mainly that one though, since we share the same mindset on ERGs.


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## insanebassninja (Feb 17, 2014)

Nagash said:


> 7-string guitars have indeed been mass produced for over 2 decades and people do know they exist, usually they just stay away from them because they're considered to be only good for metal... I can understand that most people wouldn't know how to use the extra string/range. People just ignore 7-strings, cause it's not an instrument for them.
> 
> 8-string guitars really haven't been mass-produced for long. and unlike 7-string guitars, there's no music written on 8-strings that became "mainstream". many people know Steve Vai and his sevens, non-metal people have heard of Korn cause Korn isn't very extreme, Dream Theater isn't extreme either... there's no 8-string music that comes close to the mainstream yet, so people find 8-strings weird. Same goes for 9+ strings and oviously fanned instruments



Didn't the 8 string start becoming really in use until 2007?


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 17, 2014)

It's almost always music store employees or guitar techs....so annoying when you're taking an instrument into a shop to PAY for someone to do a set-up and the guy at the counter thinks YOU'RE stupid for having MORE strings....usually followed by "I wouldn't even know what to do with it"....yeah, I'm the idiot....


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## shawnperolis (Feb 17, 2014)

People who play more than 6 strings are not even humans anymore.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Didn't the 8 string start becoming really in use until 2007?



Ibanez produce the RG2228 since 2007, yeah, but that's just 6-7 years and since it's an expensive guitar (and has 8 strings), pretty much nobody outside the ERG metal player community bought it.

7-strings got more popular and faster because it was used by artists who don't only have metal people in their fanbase.


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## Nag (Feb 17, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> It's almost always music store employees or guitar techs....so annoying when you're taking an instrument into a shop to PAY for someone to do a set-up and the guy at the counter thinks YOU'RE stupid for having MORE strings....usually followed by "I wouldn't even know what to do with it"....yeah, I'm the idiot....




you're totally the idiot. why do you bring a professional tech an instrument that isn't his area of expertise ?

 seriously though, guitar techs are jokes. it's normal to have one if you're a touring band, if you're just the regular bedroom chugger just learn to set up your fiddles yourself. cheaper, better.


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## BornToLooze (Feb 17, 2014)

I haven't really gotten any flak for my 7, but this pretty much sums up the first time I played a 7.


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## DeathChord (Feb 17, 2014)

I had an interesting situation occur that I could say is related in a way. I stopped by a local GC to pickup some strings for my 6, I use heavy gauges 13/65 the counter guy asked me how I could possibly play such heavy strings, I went to on to explain the correlation between scale length, tuning and string tension as you can guess if fell upon deaf ears.
I had also mentioned the I was entertaining my 1st eight string purchase. A 2nd counter person overheard my conversation and asked why? Had I mastered 6? What a ridiculous Phucking question to ask! Both employees play guitar and on occasion have tried to woo me with their knowledge of the instrument. Mybe they should be selling burgers ...Oh wait the double cheeseburger will never catch on.

There are those out there who just resist or fail to see the evolution of the guitar in areas such as this.
So I'm grateful for sites like sevenstring.org!


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## rectifryer (Feb 17, 2014)

DeathChord said:


> I had an interesting situation occur that I could say is related in a way. I stopped by a local GC to pickup some strings for my 6, I use heavy gauges 13/65 the counter guy asked me how I could possibly play such heavy strings, I went to on to explain the correlation between scale length, tuning and string tension as you can guess if fell upon deaf ears.
> I had also mentioned the I was entertaining my 1st eight string purchase. A 2nd counter person overheard my conversation and asked why? Had I mastered 6? What a ridiculous Phucking question to ask! Both employees play guitar and on occasion have tried to woo me with their knowledge of the instrument. Mybe they should be selling burgers ...Oh wait the double cheeseburger will never catch on.
> 
> There are those out there who just resist or fail to see the evolution of the guitar in areas such as this.
> So I'm grateful for sites like sevenstring.org!


Bro you should know that working at guitar center automatically qualifies you as a maestro. 

BRB restarting on a one string guitar until I get the hang of it.

In honor of you next time I am at GC with my rga8 if anyone says something stupid I will ask them if they are aware that foot long hotdogs are actually two wieners on a single bun.


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## Johnathan (Feb 17, 2014)

Most of my friends who either play guitar themselves or listen to guitar orientated music shuns upon me for playing on an 8 string. Apparently it's unnecessary since you would never use all the 8 strings at the same time, like you always do on a 6 string... Or they don't know what the .... you could play on an "iron board" like that. 

All music stores I've come across doesn't sell anything ERG related up front (apart for some shitty 7 string sets no one would buy anyway). If you want some specific gauges for your 7 or 8 string you have to place an order, which you have to wait a couple of weeks for to arrive. So you're better of ordering from online stores (which is cheaper in the long run and sometimes faster anyway).

No luthiers or techs even wanting to be near an ERG, let alone work on one. I have to say though, i understand them. Most luthiers and techs i know are quite old and have spent their lives working on varying models of 6 string guitars which they've grown accustomed to, and are probably quite uncomfortable with the extended range, extra strings, extra truss rods, larger bridges and what not.

As the years pass and the generation shifts i think we will see ERGs getting more and more popular, and possibly even more popular than the standard 6 string. Who knows, years from now 6 strings might be as foreign as ERGs are today.


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## lukeshallperish (Feb 17, 2014)

abandonist said:


> One of the folks got all small peen and spouted "no one wants to work on your 17 string piccolo fan fret craziness".



The "small peen" part has had me laughing for 10 minutes.


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## Hollowway (Feb 17, 2014)

Yep, I hear it all the time. I like it. It tells me I'm doing something right. If I get complacent and settled in my ways, and stop wanting to push the envelope, then I need to stop playing music.


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## mnemonic (Feb 17, 2014)




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## mnemonic (Feb 17, 2014)

Johnathan said:


> No luthiers or techs even wanting to be near an ERG, let alone work on one. I have to say though, i understand them. Most luthiers and techs i know are quite old and have spent their lives working on varying models of 6 string guitars which they've grown accustomed to, and are probably quite uncomfortable with the extended range, extra strings, extra truss rods, larger bridges and what not.



This I just don't get. they are literally the same goddamn thing except for an extra string or two. All the same principles apply. Hell, most bridges used in ERG's are _heavily_ based on strat bridges. The majority of ERG's still use the same tech they used back in the 50's if you think about it. 

The dual-truss rod of some ERG's is the only actual difference, and I rarely even see that.


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## GunnarJames (Feb 17, 2014)

mnemonic said:


> This I just don't get. they are literally the same goddamn thing except for an extra string or two. All the same principles apply. Hell, most bridges used in ERG's are _heavily_ based on strat bridges. The majority of ERG's still use the same tech they used back in the 50's if you think about it.
> 
> The dual-truss rod of some ERG's is the only actual difference, and I rarely even see that.



+1


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## HaVoC111 (Feb 17, 2014)

I had some real good experiences around here in the Tampa, Florida area. When I had my 8 shipped to Guitar Center, pretty much the entire staff huddled around to see me unbox it. "So cool!" Etc. and the girl that helped me out with it was funny. "Can I hold it? It's so big! How are you going to play this?" My girlfriend and I were joking on the drive home on all the double entendres she was spitting out lol. I had one guy there with a bit of the ol' stink-eye but I think he may have been jealous. But who isn't when you see someone else getting something cool. 

Over at Sam Ash when I was picking up a new six (end of year clearance deal FTW) I was talking to several folks that were all about the ERG. "Dude tune it to drop E!" So I guess more of us exist. Just depends on the area. Remember when Tampa was the HOME of death metal? Anyway, bunch of people at work are cool about it, some fellow guitarists (all sixers), and are always positive about me and more strings. This one guy plays in drop C and was shocked when I told him I play standard. But then it's B and F so who's heavy now?!? Lol


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## Rick (Feb 17, 2014)

The guys at GC used to say to me, "Why do you play 7 strings?"

Because I ....ing feel like it, that's why.


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## Ajb667 (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm still new to ERG, but like a stereotype I got an 8 just to djent and be br00tal. But the more I screw around with it, I love the cleans and i'm appreciating it's range for more than just metal.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2014)

MemphisHawk said:


> Extended Range misoneism.
> 
> Take it as a nice favor that he declined. He's pretty sure he can't do whatever it is you want, so he's not even going to try. In the end, both of you will be happier that he didn't try to work on it.



This. So. Much.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Feb 17, 2014)

I pretty much see ERGs as more note options, simple as that. It's not "a 6 string guitar, with extra range" (though if you want to look at it that way, I ain't gonna stop you" it's a guitar that happens to have more notes, via extra strings. I play all my guitars the same, whether they're ERGs or not. Do I tend to focus on the low string a lot when I play 8s at GC? Yes, because that's what makes or breaks a lot of ERGs, and also I don't actually own an 8 yet, myself.

HOWEVER, I've fallen back to a simple response when people ask me why I play an ERG/in a weird tuning - "why not?"

That tends to shut them up, and there's almost ALWAYS some way to discredit any argument of theirs, if they have one. I've really only gotten shit about it from the old fat blues-wanker, and my old boss at the local GC, anyway, and they're both traditionalists stuck in their old ways.


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## Hollowway (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm weird in that I like ERGs, but I dislike tuning a regular 6 string down. I do dropped tuning, but I never tune the whole thing up lower, like a baritone. I want that full range on there, because I prefer to have one guitar to be able to play whatever I want. It's also why I don't like playing in open/alternate tunings, and why I usually adjust the tuning in Guitar Pro and learn songs in standard tuning.


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## IVIitch (Feb 17, 2014)

related note: Do you still need a guitar tech around greenville?


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## abandonist (Feb 17, 2014)

I do!


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## Thaeon (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't associate with indie rockers or country/classic rock/blues guys much... Mostly Jazz and Metal. The tech I first took my 8 string to is a killer Jazz player with a master's degree in Jazz performance. He was giddy about getting a crack at the guitar. I'll keep him.


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## hardvalve (Feb 17, 2014)

I am much older than most folks here, and am a 6 string player. I owned 2 - 7 strings, and never have been able to make the adjustment. That being said, I have gotten into baritones, and really enjoy the music made with ERG instruments. Even buying baritone strings you get odd looks. I have always liked different, headless, carbon fiber, and forward thinking instruments/musicians. I want a fanned fret 6 string really bad, and will get one this year I am sure.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 18, 2014)

Actually this whole thread reminds me of the time I went to uni with my brand new Cort A5 5 string. We were doing some kind of songwriting class and as soon as I walked in with this bass the teacher instantly whipped out "I have half a mind to get my pliers and cut off that B string!"

Well, he's more than welcome to try.

On the topic of ERGs ruining the metal genre, people do gravitate towards what I would consider the "extreme" in terms of an instrument. I will stress that I don't know a single person who only likes a band PURELY because they play 8 or 9 string guitars. I do like the Acacia Strain *more* after the album Wormwood, but if this was written in drop A like Continent I'd still be chuffed. I also really like Josh Travis' work in When Knives go Skyward and I have literally no idea what tuning that is in, and frankly don't care. It's just awesome


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## lemniscate (Feb 18, 2014)

A guitar with 9 strings, is like a Bull .454 handgun. It's size is too impractical, for its application.


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## Hollowway (Feb 18, 2014)

The other thing is that (like Jeph's cartoon) most people - including me - don't like ERGs based on what they imagine they will sound like. But then when they play them they are converted. I was dead set against baritones and 7 strings for a long time (I blame nu metal). But when I got my first 7 string in 2008 or so I was hooked. Now all you have to do is tell me about more strings and I start hyper-salivating. For many people it's just a case of "don't knock it until you've tried it." 

Also, in keeping with the theme of this thread, I'm going to start referring to myself as an Extended Rangist. Or even better yet, and Extended Ranger! I'm practically a frickin' superhero now!


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## Orgalmer (Feb 18, 2014)

lemniscate said:


> A guitar with 9 strings, is like a Bull .454 handgun. It's size is too impractical, for its application.



Doesn't the fact that Bull .454 handguns exist in the first place prove exactly the opposite of what you're saying though? Someone made it, probably for their own reasons and that's all that matters - if it works for the owner.


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## Hollowway (Feb 18, 2014)

My incoming XEN 9 string is my Raging Bull .454. My incoming OAF 10 string is my Desert Eagle .50. And, before you all assume anything, you might be surprised to know I have a relatively large penis.


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## asher (Feb 18, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> My incoming XEN 9 string is my Raging Bull .454. My incoming OAF 10 string is my Desert Eagle .50. And, before you all assume anything, you might be surprised to know I have a relatively large penis.



Extended Ranger, please never stop posting, you're too good at making me crack up


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 18, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> Doesn't the fact that Bull .454 handguns exist in the first place prove exactly the opposite of what you're saying though? Someone made it, probably for their own reasons and that's all that matters - if it works for the owner.



Exactly this. It goes for anything, too. Everyone told me that I shouldn't get a 4 wheel drive because I don't go mud riding or camping or go in the woods and wouldn't have a "practical application" for it, but the last time we had a huricane blow through there was a pretty massive tree down in the road between my fiancee's house and mine (we weren't engaged at the time) and I had to go through the ditch (which had about 3 feet of water in it) to get by. Had I owned a 2 wheel drive I would've never made it and it was the first and last time I used 4 low in my truck, but it was there when I needed it.

The same goes for guns (I'd like to know that if I was trudging through the Alaskan wilderness I had more than birdshot or a Saturday night special on my hip if a grizzly decided to charge my ass) and instruments (I played my 8 like a 7 but loved having an extra string to .... around with if I wanted).

I'll admit that I could probably never use a 9 to it's full potential (I never even did with my 8) but to say that an instrument, gun, vehicle or pretty much anything has no practicality is pompous and just plain incorrect. You may not find a practical application for it, but someone else will.


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## lemniscate (Feb 18, 2014)

I own I 26.5" 7 string. 9 strings, inhibit your ability, like a Bull .454 in combat. What you want is a rifle, like how you want a bass, instead a guitar. 

"I tune my 6 string bass, one octave up." How's it different than, "I tune my guitar octave down." Besides extra strings, explain that.


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## lemniscate (Feb 18, 2014)

You're playing a bass, with 3+ higher strings. Those "guitars" are also played more like a bass, than a guitar.


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## asher (Feb 18, 2014)

lemniscate said:


> I own I 26.5" 7 string. 9 strings, inhibit your ability, like a Bull .454 in combat. What you want is a rifle, like how you want a bass, instead a guitar.



That is an assumption or a personal statement, not a given. They might inhibit _your_ ability - and that's cool, not everything is for everyone, I don't think I could play one worth a damn either. But there's not really much that makes it inherently more difficult.



> "I tune my 6 string bass, one octave up." How's it different than, "I tune my guitar octave down." Besides extra strings, explain that.



Scale length, pickups, electronics, string gauge; all of these are significant tone contributors and going to be rather different.



lemniscate said:


> You're playing a bass, with 3+ higher strings. Those "guitars" are also played more like a bass, than a guitar.



You're playing a guitar, with 3+ lower strings. It flips just as easily. Those "basses" are also played more like a guitar, than a bass (which actually works quite well as an analogy when you start to look at ERB players doing two handed stuff and then compare to fingerstyle/two hand guitar players).


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 18, 2014)

lemniscate said:


> I own I 26.5" 7 string. 9 strings, inhibit your ability, like a Bull .454 in combat. What you want is a rifle, like how you want a bass, instead a guitar.
> 
> "I tune my 6 string bass, one octave up." How's it different than, "I tune my guitar octave down." Besides extra strings, explain that.



That's the thing. You're only looking at it from one perspective. Yours.

No, nobody is going to rush into battle with a .454 Casull or .500 S&W because they're not combat handguns. They're big game hunting handguns or self-defense handguns (not from people but things like charging grizzly bears; would you rather ready a riffle with a full grown grizzly barreling at you or grab a handgun from a holster, point and shoot?) They exist because some states outlawed hunting with rifles (they terrain is too flat and rifle bullets travel too far before dropping). The practical application is there. It's just not your ideal application and therefore isn't for you, just like it's not for me. As I said though, it is ideal for someone and therefore practical.



lemniscate said:


> You're playing a bass, with 3+ higher strings. Those "guitars" are also played more like a bass, than a guitar.



I'm not sure why I quoted this. Asher covered it pretty well already.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 18, 2014)

One of these days someone's going to figure out that the cello and viola have the exact same upper range (with cello extending one octave lower) and it's going to blow their goddamn mind. Should we fire all the viola players and replace them with more cellists? No, because each produces a unique sound.

It's okay for instruments to overlap ranges. Different techniques and timbres will yield different results. What's critical is one's ability to effectively use each as the music requires.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 18, 2014)

> "I tune my 6 string bass, one octave up." How's it different than, "I tune my guitar octave down." Besides extra strings, explain that.



The difference is the words "guitar" and "bass" in your sentence. I want to play a 9 string GUITAR, not a bass, and I'm a bass player first and a guitarist second.

I don't understand 11+ string basses, but I don't tell the owners of said instruments they're doing it wrong, it's up to them to decide what works for them.

I just don't get why people can't look at a guitar/bass/ERG/ERB and go "oh cool, nice" and leave it at that if they don't have anything constructive to add. It's ok to ask questions and I don't think anyone here would fresh air a genuine query about their instrument, just don't be a tool about it.


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## mnemonic (Feb 18, 2014)

InfinityCollision said:


> It's okay for instruments to overlap ranges. Different techniques and tonalities will yield different results. What's critical is one's ability to effectively use each as the music requires.



This is another thing that doesn't make sense to me, regarding the whole "why don't you play bass" argument. 

With a normal 4-string bass tuned EADG, you can easily hit all the same notes you can get out of the low E and A strings on a guitar. So maybe we should all be playing 4-string guitars tuned DGBe? 

If you want a low E and A string, WHY DON'T YOU PLAY A BASS LOL


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## Dayn (Feb 18, 2014)

Haven't experienced it, myself. Only neutral and positive reactions. Then again, when I take my guitar in, it's to buy something. I have yet to meet an assistant that was so ....ing stupid as to make me spend my thousands of dollars elsewhere. To be fair, I'm generally in my suit, so they always treat me with respect instead of as some lout.


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## MemphisHawk (Feb 18, 2014)

Dayn said:


> I'm generally in my suit, so they always treat me with respect instead of as some lout.


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## Nag (Feb 18, 2014)

I really don't understand what people don't understand. because of the different physical properties of a guitar and a bass (scale length, typical string tension, pickups, overall construction, but also the amp and cabinets) just create a different sound. play the same note in the same octave on a guitar and on a bass, they won't sound the same !

We should boycott bassists who use 6-string basses. "if you enter guitar range why don't you just play guitar instead ?" 

maybe if we did that people would understand how god damn stupid the whole debate is. if I want to play a low F# on a guitar I'll play a low F# and people can suck me dry if they don't agree.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 18, 2014)

I don't think anyone will ever realize how stupid it is... To me... The type of person that would add an additional 8 strings to a bass is the same kind of person that would play a 10 string guitar, they simply prefer a different timbre... 

Either person will be viewed as a fool by the average traditionalist.


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## Robby the Robot (Feb 18, 2014)

Haven't had outright ERR (Extended Range Racism) for me. I've either had neutral or positive reaction here which is quite surprising seeing that this is a predominate traditionalist area. Then again, you have to look long and hard to find a decent 7 string here that isn't Ibanez.  Even at that, Ibanez in these parts are considered 'extreme.'


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 18, 2014)

Most folks seem a bit weirded out by the idea of me having so many strings but it's gotten to a point that most withhold any comments until they at least see what I use the strings for.

In most cases, though they still don't see a use for it as the average person with a guitar isn't using it to create their own sounds, but to replicate the sounds they've heard on the radio or a record--a lot of which use standard instruments.


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## facepalm66 (Feb 18, 2014)

Well in my tiny country there are like 2 people (including me!) that actually has an 8! 
THere are ~3MILLION PEOPLE living. 
Guys don't even understand how this thing works, haha! 
7 strings are extremely rare. 8's are alien tech. 
Hence noone wants to cooperate or make a band with aliens and such...


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## Nag (Feb 18, 2014)

Alien metal ! XENODJENT. FROM LITHUANIA. WITH ALIEN GUITARS



Edit : strung with 10-74 gauge tentacles from japanese hentai. much alien. very djent. such extended range. wow.


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## monkeysuncle (Feb 18, 2014)

^ WOULD LISTEN TO


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## dcoughlin1 (Feb 18, 2014)

I've never had a negative experience when I told someone I have a 7 but I have had a friend just automatically assume I'm better than him without hearing me play just because I do play with an extra string


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## Nag (Feb 18, 2014)

show this friend an emmure video, done.


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## insanebassninja (Feb 18, 2014)

mnemonic said:


> This is another thing that doesn't make sense to me, regarding the whole "why don't you play bass" argument.
> 
> With a normal 4-string bass tuned EADG, you can easily hit all the same notes you can get out of the low E and A strings on a guitar. So maybe we should all be playing 4-string guitars tuned DGBe?
> 
> If you want a low E and A string, WHY DON'T YOU PLAY A BASS LOL



I play bass but its a Extended Range bass those. I see my Bass as my AK47 and my 5 is my AK74. Am not sure how I want to tune my 5 string those... Am thinking a low F# but at the same time I want to keep my G string. Serw it am buying a 7 string bass now.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 18, 2014)

dcoughlin1 said:


> I have had a friend just automatically assume I'm better than him without hearing me play just because I do play with an extra string



Wouldn't that be nice... They usually just assume I'm in a Limp Bizkit cover band...


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## The Reverend (Feb 18, 2014)

dcoughlin1 said:


> I've never had a negative experience when I told someone I have a 7 but I have had a friend just automatically assume I'm better than him without hearing me play just because I do play with an extra string



This has actually happened to me. I was hanging out with a friend of a friend, and without ever having seen me pick up a guitar he thought I was better than him just because I only own sevens. 

I guess there's this idea that you become (or should become) a virtuo with six strings, and you just have to move to seven or more because sixers no longer can serve your purposes. I think that's ridiculous. I hate even more this notion that "You have to use your extended range to its fullest potential." I went through a period where I would try to shoehorn in phrases that could only comfortably be played on a seven, in a misguided effort to justify my choice of instrument, and I'm really glad I gave that up because it sounded like shit. 

If someone only wants to bounce on the lowest string they have for a straight album, that's their prerogative. There's no misuse because there's no proper use, capiche? We shouldn't buy into that idea by saying, "Well at least I USE all my strings," because it just furthers a fallacious idea.


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## Ocara-Jacob (Feb 18, 2014)

All of my guitar-playing friends just assume I play grind or something overly heavy used to summon satan when I tell them I play 7s and 8s.
Lines said in response to me telling people I play 7/8 strings: 
"Oh so you only play like death metal or whatever?" 
"What's the point of having more than 6 strings?" 
"Those are the work of the devil." 
"It's just noise once you get past drop D."
"Why don't you just play bass?" 
"Oh, you must like korn."

And my personal favorite, 
"That's not even music. This is music: *plays something in E pentatonic minor*"


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## Grand Moff Tim (Feb 18, 2014)

You guys didn't know you aren't allowed access to a wider range until you've first completely mastered a more limited range? That's why pianos come with covers over the outer 22 keys that you aren't allowed to unlock until you've passed an exam proving you've mastered the inner 66.

Wait, pianos aren't like that? You're allowed access to their full range right from the beginning? And music hasn't... like... disappeared or something as a result?

Huh. How about that.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 19, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> You guys didn't know you aren't allowed access to a wider range until you've first completely mastered a more limited range? That's why pianos come with covers over the outer 22 keys that you aren't allowed to unlock until you've passed an exam proving you've mastered the inner 66.
> 
> Wait, pianos aren't like that? You're allowed access to their full range right from the beginning? And music hasn't... like... disappeared or something as a result?
> 
> Huh. How about that.



I now want to do this to my computer keyboard for no good reason.


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## noise in my mind (Feb 19, 2014)

I hear you dude, I was getting some work done on my seven string at a local shop by my buddy who works there. One of the other guys that works there made some snarky comment about my seven string, but my buddy called him out pretty quickly and embarrassed him. +1 for the +1 string people lol


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## mnemonic (Feb 19, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> I guess there's this idea that you become (or should become) a virtuo with six strings, and you just have to move to seven or more because sixers no longer can serve your purposes.



I sure hope those people mastered the Ukelele followed by mastering the Banjo before they moved on to 6 string guitars. Surely they're not hypocritical at all.


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## HurrDurr (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't run... *ever*. I haven't won a gold medal at the International Speed-Walking Masters Olympics just yet, so I can't really begin my running training until I've done so.

^ That's how stupid the whole "master _X_-strings first" argument is. Really.


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## lucasreis (Feb 19, 2014)

HurrDurr said:


> I don't run... *ever*. I haven't won a gold medal at the International Speed-Walking Masters Olympics just yet, so I can't really begin my running training until I've done so.
> 
> ^ That's how stupid the whole "master _X_-strings first" argument is. Really.



Yeah...

Also, how do you quantify "mastering" six strings? How do you know if you mastered them? Do you have to master 5 strings first? It's such a stupid argument, really.


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## dcoughlin1 (Feb 19, 2014)

lucasreis said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Also, how do you quantify "mastering" six strings? How do you know if you mastered them? Do you have to master 5 strings first? It's such a stupid argument, really.



When I first started playing I started off with one string and when I felt like I mastered it I would put another string on because it's the proper way!


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## Andromalia (Feb 19, 2014)

DeathChord said:


> Mybe they should be selling burgers ...Oh wait the double cheeseburger will never catch on.
> !




 Was worth coming to SSO today if only to read that one.


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## facepalm66 (Feb 19, 2014)

Also,(and I know that you know that youtube actually has smartest comments on the internet (especially on metal (on the "DJENT" (hate this word)))) i like when people comment, well, let's say, on a meshuggah cover, actually STATING that they are lousy players, why the heck would they get 8 string guitars when they only use one or two of the strings. I mean seriously, I LOVE THESE KIND OF COMMENTS. Just makes me facepalm all day long, hence why I don't read them anymore. 
Stupid society. 
And I always think..
"Well actually I play 8 because I see it as a convenient way to have a lot of tone in one guitar. I'm not rich enough to buy 7 guitars for each different tuning I use. 
Plus, I like longer scales! " 

I assume that's just not how it works these days.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 19, 2014)

Espresto said:


> I'm a bassist
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm a bassist and guitarist... My basses go to E0... Your move...


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## lucasreis (Feb 19, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I'm a bassist and guitarist... My basses go to E0... Your move...



Not to hijack the thread... but I have a 5 string bass tuned to standard (and sometimes I tune it to Drop-A as well). I have this project of buying a 6 string bass and ditching the highest string to convert it to a 5 string + heavy ass string (so I can tune it to F#). Is this doable on a regular 6 string bass? Which gauge should I use?


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## facepalm66 (Feb 19, 2014)

^ this has been answered more than 3 million times, maybe more. To answer your question - yes it's doable and you need ~160 to 180 depending on your taste on 34". 
But i'd rather just check the bass subforum and you'll find more than plenty of answers.


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## insanebassninja (Feb 19, 2014)

lucasreis said:


> Not to hijack the thread... but I have a 5 string bass tuned to standard (and sometimes I tune it to Drop-A as well). I have this project of buying a 6 string bass and ditching the highest string to convert it to a 5 string + heavy ass string (so I can tune it to F#). Is this doable on a regular 6 string bass? Which gauge should I use?



As s bassist, I would go to .182 you can buy that at circlekstirngs.com. I hear it does the job the best.


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## Robby the Robot (Feb 19, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I'm a bassist and guitarist... My basses go to E0... Your move...


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## Murmel (Feb 19, 2014)

Nagash said:


> you have to understand that most people, including musicians, are dumb, narrow-minded and uncreative. 90% of the guitarists I've come across play Fender and Gibson, they use the same blues licks they used 10 years ago and that's it.


This might have been mentioned already, but too many pages to read:
I get your analogy, but the way you phrase it makes you sound just as ignorant as those hating on ERG's


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 19, 2014)

facepalm66 said:


> ^ this has been answered more than 3 million times, maybe more. To answer your question - yes it's doable and you need ~160 to 180 depending on your taste on 34".
> But i'd rather just check the bass subforum and you'll find more than plenty of answers.



160 for F#0 is super f*cking light by bass standards (29 lbs tension), let alone E0. I wouldn't go any lighter than .182 (38 lbs). A .190 would be better (42 lbs), and/or go longer on the scale length.


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## Nag (Feb 19, 2014)

Murmel said:


> This might have been mentioned already, but too many pages to read:
> I get your analogy, but the way you phrase it makes you sound just as ignorant as those hating on ERG's




I'm being SO offended right now, you couldn't even imagine how offended I am.


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## boxsmiley (Feb 19, 2014)

As my dad would say "f... em if they can't take a joke"


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## StevenC (Feb 19, 2014)

I've actually never encountered anything but intrigue when I've shown people my 7. The only strange reaction I've gotten is a violinist asking why I added a B string, when I already have a B, suggesting instead a C.


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## ThePhilosopher (Feb 19, 2014)

InfinityCollision said:


> 160 for F#0 is super f*cking light by bass standards (29 lbs tension), let alone E0. I wouldn't go any lighter than .182 (38 lbs). A .190 would be better (42 lbs), and/or go longer on the scale length.



I have a .182 at G0 and it's just barely tight enough for me. I can get it down to E0 for some things if I really need to.


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## Dayn (Feb 19, 2014)

MemphisHawk said:


>


You know it. It's saved me hundreds on top of already good deals.


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## abandonist (Feb 19, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I'm a bassist and guitarist... My basses go to E0... Your move...



I'll bite: Your bass may be tuned there, but you don't hear that note when you play - that equipment doesn't exist. You're hearing 2nd and 3rd harmonics of the root.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 19, 2014)

Your brain still interprets the harmonic series as relating to E0 even if the fundamental is completely absent, as in a lab test. Same sh*t as hearing someone's voice through a telephone, which band-passes something like 300-3kHz iirc. Your brain may or may not "fill in" the missing fundamental - musicians are actually less likely to do so than most - but your ear still recognizes the overtone series as belonging to the missing fundamental. Through a mid-tier bass rig the E0 fundamental is probably 30~40 dB down from the octave harmonic; it _is_ possible to get the fundamental, but the necessary equipment is inevitably both expensive and bulky.

Missing fundamental - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shawn (Feb 19, 2014)

lucasreis said:


> Not to hijack the thread... but I have a 5 string bass tuned to standard (and sometimes I tune it to Drop-A as well). I have this project of buying a 6 string bass and ditching the highest string to convert it to a 5 string + heavy ass string (so I can tune it to F#). Is this doable on a regular 6 string bass? Which gauge should I use?



I play with a bass player that pretty much tunes his 5-string to my 8-string but if he had a 6-string, would work. I thought of the same thing. Before, he had his 5-string tuned standard but a half step down which matches the 8-string but he did not have the low F so yeah, I like the idea of him having the low F but if he had a 6-string bass, he could have more range.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 19, 2014)

I didn't realise E0 was a bass tuned down a whole octave. So yeah, I tune to E0.

Even when I was using .175 strings on my 34" 4-string you could hear the E. I don't know where you get this idea that you can't hear that note. It doesn't just disappear below the second fret...


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 19, 2014)

Not getting a _frequency_ and not getting a _note_ are two very different things.


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## jimwratt (Feb 19, 2014)

The baroque guitar had 5 courses. I'm sure "standard" guitarists went through this back when 6 strings took over. "Why doeth thou needeth an sixfold unaccompanied strings? Hast though mastered the standard five courses?" Now a five string guitar is about as useful as 3/4 of a penny.

The obvious response to the "why don't you just play bass" nonsense is that you want to hold the low end down while your bass player takes a solo like a keyboard player would. Also, ask them why they don't just play the mandolin if all they want is limited range.


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## abandonist (Feb 19, 2014)

InfinityCollision said:


> Your brain still interprets the harmonic series as relating to E0 even if the fundamental is completely absent, as in a lab test. Same sh*t as hearing someone's voice through a telephone, which band-passes something like 300-3kHz iirc. Your brain may or may not "fill in" the missing fundamental - musicians are actually less likely to do so than most - but your ear still recognizes the overtone series as belonging to the missing fundamental. Through a mid-tier bass rig the E0 fundamental is probably 30~40 dB down from the octave harmonic; it _is_ possible to get the fundamental, but the necessary equipment is inevitably both expensive and bulky.
> 
> Missing fundamental - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Sure, but it's subjective - and as you say, no one here has that kind of equipment at their disposal for band practice.. 

I'm just playing devil's advocate on the E0 thing. No worries where anyone tunes. You can tune to drop Z for all I care - I do. I have a whole string on my 8 that's just a super thick floppy thing to bomb on where the high E would be.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 19, 2014)

jimwratt said:


> The baroque guitar had 5 courses. I'm sure "standard" guitarists went through this back when 6 strings took over. "Why doeth thou needeth an sixfold unaccompanied strings? Hast though mastered the standard five courses?" Now a five string guitar is about as useful as 3/4 of a penny.
> 
> The obvious response to the "why don't you just play bass" nonsense is that you want to hold the low end down while your bass player takes a solo like a keyboard player would. Also, ask them why they don't just play the mandolin if all they want is limited range.



I actually have a mandolin, they're really hard to play. Normally tuned GDAE but I tune mine EBEA like my guitars and basses. It's funny because people don't ask me why I don't just play a guitar when I tune THAT down.


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## Nag (Feb 20, 2014)

HurrDurr said:


> I don't run... *ever*. I haven't won a gold medal at the International Speed-Walking Masters Olympics just yet, so I can't really begin my running training until I've done so.
> 
> ^ That's how stupid the whole "master _X_-strings first" argument is. Really.



you lazy bastard. now go buy a djentstick.

once you've mastered the djentstick, you can get a double djentstick. then a triple djentstick. then a 4-string bass. then a 5-string bass. only then should you start trying to learn guitar. And you'll be legitimately playing an 8-string only by the time you're 60 years old. UNDERSTOOD ?


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## Andromalia (Feb 20, 2014)

jimwratt said:


> The baroque guitar had 5 courses. I'm sure "standard" guitarists went through this back when 6 strings took over. "Why doeth thou needeth an sixfold unaccompanied strings? Hast though mastered the standard five courses?" Now a five string guitar is about as useful as 3/4 of a penny.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 20, 2014)

lucasreis said:


> Not to hijack the thread... but I have a 5 string bass tuned to standard (and sometimes I tune it to Drop-A as well). I have this project of buying a 6 string bass and ditching the highest string to convert it to a 5 string + heavy ass string (so I can tune it to F#). Is this doable on a regular 6 string bass? Which gauge should I use?



That's why I bought a second 6 string... 

I have 2 5s and now 2 6s...

I started on 5s and then I tried a 6 and really really liked the high string. I tuned one of my 5s to Drop E(0) just to see if I liked it and I did, but I didn't like losing the G so I bought another 6...

Really I just need to play a 7...


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## Suho (Feb 20, 2014)

jimwratt said:


> Now a five string guitar is about as useful as 3/4 of a penny.



Well, a certain guitarist who goes by the name "Keef" might disagree. 

I think an instrument is as useful as the person playing it, whether there be one string or ten.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 20, 2014)

Keef? Who dat?


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## Murmel (Feb 20, 2014)

Nagash said:


> I'm being SO offended right now, you couldn't even imagine how offended I am.


I was never out to offend you, just pointing out that it's a tad hypocritical.
With a childish response like that I can't help but sense some elitism from your side.


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## lucasreis (Feb 20, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> That's why I bought a second 6 string...
> 
> I have 2 5s and now 2 6s...
> 
> ...



Thinking of it... I would really love to try an Ibanez BTB 7 and use it as a six-string bass plus one ....ing heavy gauge F# string. It would be the perfect bass for me. Too bad I can't really afford one of those now


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## Nag (Feb 20, 2014)

or maybe you're immune to what I call sarcasm 

What I may have sounded like to you I guess is "people who play fender and gibson are all boring assholes". this isn't what I said, this isn't what I intended to say, and given the amount of likes on my post you disagree with I guess you're the only one who sees a problem there. everyone else understood what I meant.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 20, 2014)

lucasreis said:


> Thinking of it... I would really love to try an Ibanez BTB 7 and use it as a six-string bass plus one ....ing heavy gauge F# string. It would be the perfect bass for me. Too bad I can't really afford one of those now



I want one but fretless... And I'm scared to defret a bass as nice as that BTB. But I feel like I'm gonna pay SERIOUS money trying to get one elsewhere.


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## crankyrayhanky (Feb 20, 2014)

I just expect it. I brought my 8 in for a setup and get the typical witty remarks, but in the end the old guy doing the work was exceptional. I'll deal with the monkeys laughing it up


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## Grindspine (Feb 20, 2014)

I guess I should add to my prior post that I had seen Chapman Stick and Warr guitars long before I heard Meshuggah was playing 8 strings. The Chapman "Stick Bass" was already an 8 string that had been around for a while. The 10 string standard stick and 12 string grand stick were made for tapping styles rather than picking. I think that it must have been around 1992 when I first heard Cynic that I was introduced to Chapmans.

That all being said, I do find 9 strings a little odd, only because I already find the neck on the Ibanez RGA8 and RG2228 to be pretty wide.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 20, 2014)

crankyrayhanky said:


> I just expect it. I brought my 8 in for a setup and get the typical witty remarks, but in the end the old guy doing the work was exceptional. I'll deal with the monkeys laughing it up



Witty?


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Feb 20, 2014)

There's nothing more infuriating then working in a music store and have a customer talk shit about extended range. "The guitar was meant for E standard only; anything else is just stupid and means you can't play". I've wanted to just knock people straight in the face with a chair. But since that is illegal besides PTSD rages, I enjoy talking peacefully about having alternate options and expanded capabilities. I take soft jabs at them about people usually being afraid or intimidated, incapable or slightly narrow minded, referring to the invention of amplified guitars being rejected initially, and rock as well. I did this in a way that made them highly uncomfortable, and almost got them to think I was mocking them (which I was), but unable to say anything useful to defend themselves because I've already twisted that against them after making it look positive yet divisive. I love to watch them squirm. Usually it's just a close minded douche canoe who is stuck in some decade that never ended for them. 

I've been asked why I'm not in politics and I answer: because I'd kill someone, and that's why I joined the military!


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 20, 2014)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> I've been asked why I'm not in politics and I answer: because I'd kill someone, and that's why I joined the military!


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## crankyrayhanky (Feb 20, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> Witty?



corrected:
I just expect it. I brought my 8 in for a setup and get the typical "witty" remarks, but in the end the old guy doing the work was exceptional. I'll deal with the monkeys laughing it up


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 20, 2014)




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## Murmel (Feb 20, 2014)

Nagash said:


> or maybe you're immune to what I call sarcasm
> 
> What I may have sounded like to you I guess is "people who play fender and gibson are all boring assholes". this isn't what I said, this isn't what I intended to say, and given the amount of likes on my post you disagree with I guess you're the only one who sees a problem there. everyone else understood what I meant.



Sarcasm and text generally don't go hand in hand. But fair enough, I deem myself defeated.

I should also add that from seeing other posts on this forum, I wouldn't have been the least surprised if you were actually serious with your post..


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## HurrDurr (Feb 20, 2014)

I get crap all the time from all my friends. The same ones who then moved on up to 7's because they joined a new band and later said they would consider trying out an 8 for a while. Point being that if they're young enough, they'll turn eventually. The older blues-guys though, those are always gonna be stuck there.

Now-a-days I get crap because I actually decided to take their advice and start learning bass along with guitar and everyone questions why I don't just stick to guitar because I haven't *mastered* it yet. Much in the same way when I started learning guitar after playing drums for several years.


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## boxsmiley (Feb 20, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> Keef? Who dat?




keith richards?  mebbe?


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## Orgalmer (Feb 20, 2014)

> Now-a-days I get crap because I actually decided to take their advice and start learning bass along with guitar and everyone questions why I don't just stick to guitar because I haven't mastered it yet. Much in the same way when I started learning guitar after playing drums for several years.



'Grats on this man, it's cool that you can play drums, guitar and bass. I think that being able to competently play whatever music you like at your skill level is pretty impressive, to me, it's more impressive than just being good at once instrument. I wish I could play drums, but instead I've got guitar/bass/vocals down for now.

There's always time to learn though


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## BornToLooze (Feb 20, 2014)

One thing I did think of, one dude I had a class with before was being a douche because I had a 6 and a 7, and it's pointless to have a 6 string if you have a 7 because you can play everything you can on a 6 on a 7. 

So I guess I experienced the opposite as everyone else.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 20, 2014)

BornToLooze said:


> One thing I did think of, one dude I had a class with before was being a douche because I had a 6 and a 7, and it's pointless to have a 6 string if you have a 7 because you can play everything you can on a 6 on a 7.
> 
> So I guess I experienced the opposite as everyone else.



So he was butthurt that you had a 6 and also played a 7? That makes literally no sense. What if you used two different tunings?

Man I'm just gonna stop now before I think too hard about how R-tard that is


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## BornToLooze (Feb 20, 2014)

I don't know...I really don't...


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## jimwratt (Feb 20, 2014)

Suho said:


> Well, a certain guitarist who goes by the name "Keef" might disagree.
> 
> I think an instrument is as useful as the person playing it, whether there be one string or ten.



To be fair, Keef generally plays 6 string guitars but takes one string off. That's my point though. Keith Richards has had some 5 stringers custom made, but they've not really caught on beyond him. They wouldn't sell because few people want less range than a standard instrument, especially when avoiding or removing a string is so much easier and doesn't result in less versatility. If you want to play anything than a Stones song, you'd likely have some challenges with a guitar that could only have 5 strings.

Other 5 string players that come to mind are if the low-tuned variety. They are often ridiculed as being talentless and low-skilled for using less strings. Damned if you do, damned if you don't basically. They're kind of the polar opposite of ERG players in that they like the low range but don't care about the high range.

What anti-ergism (coining the term) really comes down to more often than not is a distain for the music associated with the instruments.


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## 12enoB (Feb 20, 2014)

I was just in a vintage guitar shop that sells the evh 5150iii, trying it out. There's probably 5 guys standing around, and one playing guitar, bluesy stuff. 

I pull out my 7 string and I just hear muttering like "a 7 string, what's he gonna do with that" "I dunno." When I started playing on the clean channel, the guy playing blues was looking over really impressed because of how thick and beautiful chords sound with the 7th string ringing out. I hope I converted someone that day


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## Orgalmer (Feb 21, 2014)

@jimwratt, there are also grunge guitarists who just have three strings tuned DAD, CGC, etc.

I don't understand it at all, but yeah, more power to them if that's what they want to do!

EDIT: I just wanna be really clear on the above, they ONLY have three things. they take the three higher strings off completely.


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## Leveebreaks (Feb 21, 2014)

chrisxrome said:


> The thing that annoys me most about this is the stigma believing we downtune to drop Z and only play the lowest string, open for 25 minutes.



Metalcore says hi


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## Hollowway (Feb 21, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> EDIT: I just wanna be really clear on the above, they ONLY have three things. they take the three higher strings off completely.



I used to ask girls if they wanted to see my three things, and I always got slapped.


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## Fulgrim (Feb 21, 2014)

I've experienced this a few times, pretty much the same story as people have been posting already.

However the best time this happened to me was this total assbag of a posh twat who played jazz on a five-string bass. 
He saw my eight-string and asked sarcastically why I would ever need to play such a 'pointless instrument, seeing as bass players already exist'. 
So I told him 'I imagine I play an eight for the same reason as YOU PLAY A BASS WITH FIVE STRINGS, for the added range.'

Weirdly enough, I don't think he'd actually considered that angle and it shut him up pretty quickly.


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## Hollowway (Feb 21, 2014)

^That's awesome! The guy set himself up pretty well for that.


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## shawnperolis (Feb 21, 2014)

Fulgrim said:


> However the best time this happened to me was this *total assbag of a posh twat* who played jazz on a five-string bass.



Almost spit my coffee out at work.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 21, 2014)

boxsmiley said:


> keith richards?  mebbe?



That's what I thought but usually when I make assumptions I get embarassed...


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## VigilSerus (Feb 21, 2014)

Man these stories are gut killers.  I haven't experienced any ERG 'racism' myself, on the contrary really. I go to Guitar Center and ask about 7 and 8 strings and the guys there are really cool and interested. Even in my Jazz Ensemble class, the teacher was impressed. But I assume my luck will run out soon or later and I'll meet the one guy with the narrow perspective that'll give me a huge headache.


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## HurrDurr (Feb 21, 2014)

Fulgrim said:


> *total assbag of a posh twat*



It's been three hours... and I'm still dying of laughter.
It isn't even all that funny, really.
Ah, but it is.


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## lewstherin006 (Feb 21, 2014)

Fulgrim said:


> I've experienced this a few times, pretty much the same story as people have been posting already.
> 
> However the best time this happened to me was this total assbag of a posh twat who played jazz on a five-string bass.
> He saw my eight-string and asked sarcastically why I would ever need to play such a 'pointless instrument, seeing as bass players already exist'.
> ...



I tried out for a band and when we rehearsed for the 1st time I brought my JP7. The bass player had a 5 string bass and didnt like it when I played chords on the lower strings. Needless to say I didnt get in the band. I was told later told that I was a complete waste of time because Im into metal and play 7 string guitar. Even though I was the only guitar player who showed up that day (6 were supposed to show up that day) and I knew more songs than I was supposed too.


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## Obsidian Soul (Feb 21, 2014)

I got a new Jackson 7 string this Tuesday and posted pics on Facebook about it.One of my friends that liked it is a gospel/blues/rock player,and she is interested in 7 strings(I want to convert her to the dark side lol).However, there is a guy I'm friends with that plays bass,and he hates djent along with tunings lower than A Standard.He didn't like the post,but he liked the post where I was stressing over the floyd rose.I felt that was a stealthy douchebag move.

Anyways,I will post the NGD after I receive it back from the shop since I couldn't tune it for the life of me.


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## Ed_Ibanez_Shred (Feb 21, 2014)

There's a guy in my physics class who I like to infuriate by telling him about 9 and 10 strings. He seems genuinely perplexed as to why they exist I showed him some animals as leaders but he still seemed disturbed 

Also my uncle took me to his local guitar shop, and I showed him one of the LTD 7 strings because he is a poor closeted middle aged blues/rock fan  (sarcasm) He played it a bit but he didn't seem convinced to be honest I guess the ERG concept seems odd to those who haven't ever listened to any 'ERG music' before.


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## HurrDurr (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm guessing that's true since I'm sure a lot of us stumbled on the ERG craze by accident. I got into them because bands that I was listening to that I thought just used regular sixers apparently were using 7's and/or 8's on some of my favorite records. After knowing that, I was pretty much obligated to get into them.


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## crg123 (Feb 21, 2014)

Ed_Ibanez_Shred said:


> There's a guy in my physics class who I like to infuriate by telling him about 9 and 10 strings. He seems genuinely perplexed as to why they exist I showed him some animals as leaders but he still seemed disturbed
> 
> Also my uncle took me to his local guitar shop, and I showed him one of the LTD 7 strings because he is a poor closeted middle aged blues/rock fan  (sarcasm) He played it a bit but he didn't seem convinced to be honest I guess the ERG concept seems odd to those who haven't ever listened to any 'ERG music' before.



I love to piss off my friend who only listens to AC/DC by showing him my ERGs and ERBs. It drives him absolutely insane.


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## Fretless (Feb 21, 2014)

One of the guys at guitar center I know was all "Why would you wanna play so low? You can't hear any of it" and he started making djenty fart noises while walking around the store. It was funny because I was also talking to the manager at the same time and said, "He needs help." and the manager said, "Yes, he does."

On the flip side I do understand a bit of the distaste towards super low drop tunings. I mean I understand that technically a guitar tuned down to drop E still won't play as deep and bassy as a bass tuned to E because of the voicing of the chosen amp along side any EQ done by the musician, but I mean one can only go so low before we (bassists) can't hear our notes.


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## HurrDurr (Feb 21, 2014)

While they might be the same exact notes, they'll sound completely different as you said, so you'll still be able to hear your notes, trust me. People on here and out abroad are playing riffs on 9 and 10 string guitars that don't sound like basses even though they are tuned lower even than a standard 4 string and the 10's being lower than most other basses I'm assuming.


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## tmo (Feb 21, 2014)

I used to play with a drummer that when he saw me with a 7 stringer guitar he asked if I was into... nu-metal!... this was a long time ago... even longer, the first time I saw a 6 string bass in a music shop window I said to a friend "it looks like an ironing table", this was in the early/mid 90's... some years later I bought a 6 string bass...

Note, an "Ironing Table" is what I call those objects where one does the cloth ironing to get rid of all the wrinkles after wash...


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## abandonist (Feb 21, 2014)

I mean, I play an 8 string, but I really don't get 9 and 10 string guitars. Feel free to play them if that's your thing, but I might chuckle a little. I'm not going to be a dick to you about it though.


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## Fretless (Feb 21, 2014)

Honestly if a band is playing in drop E and I want to play along, I just tune standard on my 4 string. Sounds equally as heavy. More audible bass notes in the long run too.


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## 12enoB (Feb 21, 2014)

Ed_Ibanez_Shred said:


> There's a guy in my physics class who I like to infuriate by telling him about 9 and 10 strings. He seems genuinely perplexed as to why they exist I showed him some animals as leaders but he still seemed disturbed
> 
> Also my uncle took me to his local guitar shop, and I showed him one of the LTD 7 strings because he is a poor closeted middle aged blues/rock fan  (sarcasm) He played it a bit but he didn't seem convinced to be honest I guess the ERG concept seems odd to those who haven't ever listened to any 'ERG music' before.



My uncle was the first person to introduce me to drop d and odd time signatures. I was a 13 year old punk who just wanted to play fast power chords, and he showed me the glory of progressive music. About a year ago when I started getting back into guitar I was emailing him that I was interested in getting a 7. I was expecting all the jokes and stuff since he's in his 40s and probably stuck in his ways. Much to my surprise, he replied that he had his 7 string jackson for a few years, and he pretty much had to buy it to try and keep up with the style of music he likes.

When I first thought of the concept of an ERG, I thought of how cool it would be to be able to play all the fast punk shit I loved, and if I wanted to get heavy in the middle of a song, bam there's a heavy string there for that purpose.


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## Given To Fly (Feb 22, 2014)

I know salesmen at music stores get frustrated when high end ERG's sit on the wall accumulating "guitar store wear and tear" making them less desirable to even the niche market. Heck, I get frustrated sometimes, but its not my job to buy high end gear that doesn't sell for whatever reason...though I may try.


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## The Reverend (Feb 22, 2014)

I'm actually not gonna lie, guys, and this is a secret I've only told once on SSO, but luckily got lost in the mix...

I was once one of those assholes. Back in 2007, I was the vocalist in a metalcore band in Houston called I Am Eternal, and we played our first show with a band from MI called The Beholder. They played seven strings. My brother, who was the guitarist in our band, told me about and we laughed openly at them, until they started playing. I think that was the first time I had seen the power of sevens and ERGs in person.


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## AugmentedFourth (Feb 22, 2014)

Ultimately any hate or need to defend extended range instruments is purely a product of some poor linear thinking. If I tell someone that I play a guitar with 8 strings that covers the range of both a bass guitar and standard guitar (which is true), the first thing they think is "what's the point of that, you are just encroaching on your bassist's range".

Who says that all guitars are played along with basses? Who says that all instruments must have exclusive ranges so that there is no possiblity of small sonorities (or god forbid unisons between 2 or more instruments)? Who says that guitars have to have 6 strings? What If they were originally invented with 4 strings, DGBE? Would 6 stringers just be unnecessary in that slightly alternate universe?

By the way, I'd like to take this time to say I am utterly disgusted to have seen fretless instruments on this forum. You don't need all of those notes! We already have all the notes needed to make music, who cares if your ideas involve the notes in between! You have to be like us, and conform to our arbitrary [western] musical culture. Or else you will be made fun of.

Or we could all remind ourselves that music is just sound arranged by humans.


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## Winspear (Feb 22, 2014)

AugmentedFourth said:


> Who says that all guitars are played along with basses? Who says that all instruments must have exclusive ranges so that there is no possiblity of small sonorities (or god forbid unisons between 2 or more instruments)?



So much this. And every time I see the 'invading the range, omg teh frequencies' comments it makes me die a little inside  

Err_, hello_????






I think this picture should become a standard reply. Haha.


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## MemphisHawk (Feb 22, 2014)

That says a guitar has 3 octaves. a 6 string with 24 frets in standard tuning has 5 octaves.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 22, 2014)

MemphisHawk said:


> That says a guitar has 3 octaves. a 6 string with 24 frets in standard tuning has 5 octaves.



6 strings and 24 frets is 4 octaves (E2-E6), but you're right about the guitar's listed range being incomplete there. Best guess is that they're referencing classical guitars and decided to stop near where the neck joins the body (easily reachable range on a non-cutaway classical) instead of actual range (typically ends somewhere between B5 and E6).


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Feb 22, 2014)

InfinityCollision said:


> 6 strings and 24 frets is 4 octaves (E2-E6), but you're right about the guitar's listed range being incomplete there. Best guess is that they're referencing classical guitars and decided to stop near where the neck joins the body (easily reachable range on a non-cutaway classical) instead of actual range (typically ends somewhere between B5 and E6).



That example page was made by an old-fart who thinks playing above the 12fret is for young wankers who haven't mastered their basic chording at the nut 

To him that's all the range you should be using in a classical context, if not he'll tell you to go play the accordion if all you want is range and to step over the other instruments.

*sarcasm/joke


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## Go To Bed Jessica (Feb 22, 2014)

Nah, it's ok to play past the twelfth fret - but only after you have mastered frets 1-12.


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## -42- (Feb 22, 2014)

Dayn said:


> To be fair, I'm generally in my suit, so they always treat me with respect instead of as some lout.


Ah yes, the fedora is strong with this one.


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## Nag (Feb 22, 2014)

I will giggle at someone who buys an ERG to chug exclusively on the bottom strings. if you do that, get a baritone 6 already 

but if you buy a 10 string guitar and make actual use of all 10, I'll have big respect. I wouldn't know what to do with all those strings


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## VigilSerus (Feb 22, 2014)

-42- said:


> Ah yes, the fedora is strong with this one.



C'mon don't make fun of his Euphoria


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## The Reverend (Feb 22, 2014)

Nagash said:


> I will giggle at someone who buys an ERG to chug exclusively on the bottom strings. if you do that, get a baritone 6 already
> 
> but if you buy a 10 string guitar and make actual use of all 10, I'll have big respect. I wouldn't know what to do with all those strings



The idea that we have to 'use' all of our strings to justify having them is a defense mechanism. Some people never use more than three strings on a sixer, do you suggest they play three-string guitars? That sentiment implies the "mastery of six before seven" line that nobody wants to hear.


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 22, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> The idea that we have to 'use' all of our strings to justify having them is a defense mechanism. Some people never use more than three strings on a sixer, do you suggest they play three-string guitars? That sentiment implies the "mastery of six before seven" line that nobody wants to hear.



Yeah, I won't lie, it does come across as that old man sitting in his rocking chair going, "If I had it my way the string police would come and round up all these lazy whipper snapper's strings that they're not using and put 'em in their place."

I don't play jazz and don't have any interest in it (or prog for that matter). My low tuned strings are strictly for riffing and chugging. When I play chords, more often than not I play them just like I would on any 6 with the inclusion of _maybe_ the 7th string. I don't feel like I should have to swap guitars if I want to go between the 2 though (which is rare).


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## Dayn (Feb 22, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> The idea that we have to 'use' all of our strings to justify having them is a defense mechanism. Some people never use more than three strings on a sixer, do you suggest they play three-string guitars? That sentiment implies the "mastery of six before seven" line that nobody wants to hear.


On a piano I play ALL the keys, ALL the time. That's true mastery. Soon I'll be able to move up to 89 keys.


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## Metal-Box (Feb 22, 2014)

I am not a djent player but I do like the music and own several 7 stringers and a couple 8s.

In my opinion, I've seen a growing number of ERG fans act as if the entire music world is out to get them. They may be the most self-persecuted group of musicians I have ever seen. There seems to be this "Why is everyone picking on me??!" theme going on here.

I can assure you that the handful of anecdotal tales on here are not representative of the rest of the guitar world. Nobody is out to get those of us that play these guitars. Actually, in my experience, I have had nothing but positive reactions to my interest in ERGs.

On a side note, as I follow various fan pages and groups on FB, I've noticed that some people can be the biggest dicks around; telling people they suck in the comments when posting a video or calling their guitar a "shitplank". It's quite saddening. I thought the community was supposed to support each other. Alas, it seems to have been overrun with entitled tarts that can't keep their rude comments to themselves.


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## crankyrayhanky (Feb 23, 2014)

way to play both sides


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## Metal-Box (Feb 23, 2014)

Dayn said:


> On a piano I play ALL the keys, ALL the time. That's true mastery. Soon I'll be able to move up to 89 keys.



Being able to play the piano is such a great tool to have. Congrats on that.


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## erdiablo666 (Feb 23, 2014)

Music is supposed to be fun. I love playing 6 strings, and 7 strings, and 8 strings. Each for different reasons. I'm glad I know a luthier that will set up all my guitars for a good price and will only razz me occasionally. Everyone needs to enjoy playing their own music and stop the hate. Seriously.


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## Metal-Box (Feb 23, 2014)

erdiablo666 said:


> Music is supposed to be fun. I love playing 6 strings, and 7 strings, and 8 strings. Each for different reasons. I'm glad I know a luthier that will set up all my guitars for a good price and will only razz me occasionally. Everyone needs to enjoy playing their own music and stop the hate. Seriously.



Well put. +1 rep!


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## facepalm66 (Feb 23, 2014)

Hate is something a human being is proud of, you can't take that from him.


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## Dayn (Feb 23, 2014)

facepalm66 said:


> Hate is something a human being is proud of, you can't take that from him.


Sure you can. What could they do, hate you for it?


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## Nag (Feb 23, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> The idea that we have to 'use' all of our strings to justify having them is a defense mechanism. Some people never use more than three strings on a sixer, do you suggest they play three-string guitars? That sentiment implies the "mastery of six before seven" line that nobody wants to hear.



I won't force anyone to buy guitars that don't exist. besides, I guess a 3-string neck would be kind of awkward to hold... I was mostly kidding but I do find it weird to buy an 8-string guitar if you could play all your stuff on a 6 or a 7. doesn't have anything to do with mastering any kind of instrument. and I was REALLY just talking about the rare people who exclusively chug the first 3 frets on the bottom F# and B strings


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## JmCastor (Feb 23, 2014)

i think this track is f**king amazing, reminds me of a "wave of babies" feel and gives me more material to practice when i get my DC800. Do i think this track will be the best on the album? that is pretty opinion based and personally i would say "no". So maybe the haters should calm down till we get the actual album.


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## jimwratt (Feb 23, 2014)

I'm willing to bet that the worst of these comments come from the crowd often maligned for being "cork sniffers," the blues-rock/dad-rock crowd that gets obsessive about NOS BC108 fuzz transistors. They're a very specific crowd and shouldn't be taken that seriously.


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## Albionic (Feb 23, 2014)

chrisxrome said:


> The thing that annoys me most about this is the stigma believing we downtune to drop Z and only play the lowest string, open for 25 minutes. When the majority stick to a standard tuning, with additional low strings.
> 
> They're called eXtEnDeD rAnGe GuItArS yOu IdIoTz!!!111! WE WANT TO EXTEND OUR RANGE FOR ADDITIONAL CHORDAL VOICING AND SUCH.
> 
> All these guys with sixers thinking they do the same thing with their horribly set up, downtuned guitars - y'all need a clip round the ear and a firm education. I'll direct them here next time. Guarantee they'll pine for a custom 8, paired with a AxeFx ultra within a month.


I fairness there's a huge amount of guys who buy 7's8's and 9's that do only use the bottom 3 strings. But if that's what people wanna do then that's cool a 6 would need a new nut cut to handle the heavier strings anyway.


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## tmo (Feb 23, 2014)

facepalm66 said:


> Hate is something a human being is *taught* for, *you can teach that away from him*.



Corrected...


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## givemeajackson (Feb 23, 2014)

Fretless said:


> Honestly if a band is playing in drop E and I want to play along, I just tune standard on my 4 string. Sounds equally as heavy. More audible bass notes in the long run too.



meshuggah does the same. and actually most bands with 8 strings do.


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## givemeajackson (Feb 23, 2014)

on the argument: i think people who buy an 8 string and only use the 2 lowest would actually be better off with a baritone 6 due to the longer scale and the wider selection of pickups/hardware, but the second you play the slightest bit of leadwork or chords, the 8 string makes total sense. i have heard dumb comments when trying 7s and 8s at 1 or 2 stores, but those were the stores i quickly abandoned anyways since the people working there didn't know jackshit about the stuff they were selling... where i live, most people are actually quite interested in the ERG stuff. not many play them, but most appreciate them. since vai and loomis the 7 is entirely established here, won't be long until the same goes for the 8 as well i think


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## Danukenator (Feb 23, 2014)

-42- said:


> Ah yes, the fedora is strong with this one.



I've got another method. When they give you crap about being careful etc. point out you are there to spend two thousand guitars on a guitar. 

Suits are nice but money speaks volumes as well.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 23, 2014)

> and I was REALLY just talking about the rare people who exclusively chug the first 3 frets on the bottom F# and B strings



Heh, that's probably me. Sometimes I play the third and fourth strings too, but they're scary because I'm moving too far away from the lowest note.

If I could get my hands on a 30" scale 6 string, or a bass VI, I'd totally use that for drop E, especially if I was only playing low-end rhythm stuff. More often than not though, I'm actually using the higher strings even if it's only for a few select parts.


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## Metal-Box (Feb 23, 2014)

Just play the guitar the way you want. There is no right or wrong, just what you think sounds good. I don't know why anyone should care what someone else wants to do with their guitar.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 23, 2014)

Metal-Box said:


> Just play the guitar the way you want. There is no right or wrong, just what you think sounds good.



I do just that 

I think Nagash was saying that if you're using a certain tuning, whatever it is, if you only use a very small part of that range, like a few octaves, then having more strings is probably less efficient. That makes sense to me.

I use all my strings, even if it's just for open rakes. That counts... right?


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## Metal-Box (Feb 23, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> I do just that
> 
> I think Nagash was saying that if you're using a certain tuning, whatever it is, if you only use a very small part of that range, like a few octaves, then having more strings is probably less efficient. That makes sense to me.
> 
> I use all my strings, even if it's just for open rakes. That counts... right?



LOL, sorry. I was just saying that as a general statement. It wasn't directed toward anyones comments.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 23, 2014)

I figured as much, and I agree, people shouldn't worry about being judged for playing a particular instrument. If they want to play it, they should just play it and have a good time.


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## Dayn (Feb 23, 2014)

Danukenator said:


> I've got another method. When they give you crap about being careful etc. point out you are there to spend two thousand guitars on a guitar.
> 
> Suits are nice but money speaks volumes as well.


Even then, the first impression ensures excellent service from the get-go with a good rapport for greater deals later, all for the low effort of going in on a work-day. Manipulative? Yes, but it saves money. The only comments I've encountered so far were 'wow, how do you even hear that?' in response to my bass...

(And no, fedoras are never classy. Not unless you're a bald, well-dressed 70-year-old man.)


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## G-Varbanov (Feb 24, 2014)

I am so glad that I found this forum and particularly the ERG section of it. Same as the guy from Lithuania, I come from a small country - Bulgaria. As you can imagine there are not a lot of people playing 8-string guitars. Most of the ERG Guitar players now live outside of Bulgaria (So do I). We all leave our country because of the general linear thinking (not thinking) of the mass population. 

So recently I got into Meshuggah and was GASing for the M8M. The price tag was a bit too salty for me so I put that idea down fast. Then one day I was looking at a video of Meshuggah`s guitar tech. He demonstrated their gear. That was the moment that I saw the Ibanez M80M... I just had to have it. Im not going to lie to you - I have just started playing electric guitars 8 months ago and I am still searching for what suits me best. In this time I had gotten 3 6-strings, a baritone, an acoustic, and recently the 8-string. This thing is f**king awesome, sounds and looks so badass!

So I am browsing the Bulgarian guitar forum and I come across a tread: "Ibanez anounces 9-string". Keep in mind that the forum does not have a ERG section (I hope that soon it will, because the owner is an open minded guy and likes the idea of ERG`s). In this tread I saw all of the above mentioned bullshit: 
-You have to master 6-string in order to get more string
-Why do you need 7-8-9 when you can just drop tune - I even did a tread on that one showing with pictures what happens when you try to put 13-65 gauge strings on Epiphone LP, and even on a Gibson Baritone - they are still not convinced. 
-Why dont you just play bass?
-Why dont you play more guitar instead of dealing with nonsence?
-How are you gonna play this guitar standing up without strapping it high up to your neck - I did a Meshuggah - Demiurge Cover, standing up and not looking so tense while doing it - Still not convinced. Then it was "Oh so you only play the 8 and 7 strings, why dont you drop tune a 6 string? Do a whole sweep picking on 8 strings!" 

And last but not least the stupidest things of all:
A friend of mine, bass player also bashes the 8 string idea. Funny thing is that before I got the 8-string I was asking him for an advice about getting a bass guitar. I wanted to know why he is using a 5-string bass instead of 4. He told me that he feels more comfortable with the neck and the string spacing. When I told that back at him for my 8-string he was ignorant again. 

Bottom line - those people are a waste of your time. Let them think what they want and have fun. It was worth writing the tread because I found 3 more people that shared my interest. 

P.S. I wish I had seen this tread earlier... I could sure use some of those comeback responses. They are golden. I cant wait for someone to bash on ERG-s to serve them one


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## lucasreis (Feb 24, 2014)

This thread is a blast, so many great responses. 

Funnily enough, I'm the only person in my circle of friends who has a 7 string and an 8 string. 

I did jam with a band that had a 7 string guitar player last year (and she was a girl), and this was really funny, she started playing bass before guitar and she moved to a 7 right away. Apart from her, I don't really know any other 7 string guitar players, and in my close circle of friends who play music, they only play six string guitars, but through all of these years, none of them made stupid comments or gave me shit for liking these guitars, they were always receptive and tried to play my guitar and liked that I was doing some heavy ass stuff. 

The reception was always good through all of these years (I've been playing sevens since 2001) and that's cool. Despite the fact that my friends don't play 7 string, they don't hate them, they think it's cool.

They know that I have an 8 string now and they also think it's cool. I even have a cousin who started playing guitar and ended up moving to bass last year. He had a regular 6 string and he now has a 4 string bass, but he is totally pro ERG's and he liked my RG8 a lot when I brought it to his house. He just doesn't play ERGs or ERBs because he said his hands are too small and he thinks it's difficult, but he loves watching my videos playing the 8 string. 

However, I've seen some extreme hatred and ignorance concerning ERGs, 7 string, low tunings, everything like that, in online forums, especially forums here in Brazil. I'll explain... Brazil has some really good metal bands, but here, a lot of people are into Iron Maiden, Classic Rock, stuff like that, and they just stick to that... a lot of them are into Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, and most of these "tr00 metalheads" just like 80's stuff and think that everything low tuned sucks, or that downtuning is only for Korn fans (but hey, a lot of them for some godknowswhy reason like System of a Down and consider them a tr00 band as well and they aren't even aware that these guys tune to C, but hey, ignorance is bliss I guess). 

Forums like cifra club, which is the biggest guitar forum around in Brazil (and a total joke) have loads of posts criticizing 7 strings, 8 strings, low tunings, everything that relates to this kind of mindset. 

They would probably cringe hard if they saw the RG9, or have a full heart attack if they saw any of the 10 string Agile guitars. 

But, regarding music stores, at least the ones I went to through all these years, I never got shit for playing 7 string guitars. The sales guys always asked which seven I had and they thought it was cool. I was never judged by them. However, since I got my RG8, I ordered strings online and I never went searching for string sets for 8's (I don't even think stores here have them) but I'll try just to see if people will make sarcastic remarks and stuff like that... let's see... hehehe

ps: on the positive side, my brother, who used to give me a lot of crap for playing sevens, is now considering buying an 8 because he is really into Ihsahn for the last 2 years.


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## HurrDurr (Feb 24, 2014)

I'm just gonna chime in and say Ihsahn is great.


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## Tom Drinkwater (Feb 24, 2014)

I've been super lucky with my extended range guitars. The tech that wires my guitars works at a local music store so the salesmen there get to see and play all of the 7's and 8's I bring in and I've gotten some really great support from them. I recently made a couple of 36" scale conversion bass necks and brought one in attached to a Squier Jazz bass and my tech and the other bassist that works there had an absolute blast playing it a full octave down through the house PA. I really thought I'd run into more close minded people but have been very lucky.


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## insanebassninja (Feb 24, 2014)

ThePhilosopher said:


> I have a .182 at G0 and it's just barely tight enough for me. I can get it down to E0 for some things if I really need to.



Wait serirly? Maybe I should go to 190 then for my F# Bass then. Really to me I think .160 maybe good for a heavy B right? I know 145 is great for both B but not sure on A? It still feels nice those.


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## Winspear (Feb 24, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Wait serirly? Maybe I should go to 190 then for my F# Bass then. Really to me I think .160 maybe good for a heavy B right? I know 145 is great for both B but not sure on A? It still feels nice those.



Definitely 190 for the F#. A 158 is good


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## Orgalmer (Feb 25, 2014)

> Definitely 190 for the F#. A 158 is good



Really? I have a .182 in E, and it's fine.


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## Winspear (Feb 25, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> Really? I have a .182 in E, and it's fine.



People are accustomed to the loose low end from traditional sets. I expect you wouldn't use a .090 for the regular E? That's a tension match for the .182 - for most people that would be too loose (and it only gets more important the lower you tune, I find). I encourage people to try matching tension - it's much more satisfying!  That's why the drop tune set has 200 and 102 E strings. Tune up a couple of semitones - I bet it sounds and plays much better and consistently with the rest of the instrument


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## Orgalmer (Feb 25, 2014)

EtherealEntity said:


> People are accustomed to the loose low end from traditional sets. I expect you wouldn't use a .090 for the regular E? That's a tension match for the .182 - for most people that would be too loose (and it only gets more important the lower you tune, I find). I encourage people to try matching tension - it's much more satisfying!  That's why the drop tune set has 200 and 102 E strings. Tune up a couple of semitones - I bet it sounds and plays much better and consistently with the rest of the instrument



Fair point, man. Seeing as it's a custom balanced set from Kalium I'm not sure what exactly the other strings are. I'm not sure if this is the case any more but I thought that the .182 was the highest you can go before they start triple winding the strings? Is that correct? I've used higher gauge strings before from Kalium and they just sound totally different to the other strings. As in, it sounds terrible.

EDIT: Wait, do you mean a .090 for the E on my 8 string? Because I have a .076 on it right now.


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## Dayn (Feb 25, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> Fair point, man. Seeing as it's a custom balanced set from Kalium I'm not sure what exactly the other strings are. I'm not sure if this is the case any more but I thought that the .182 was the highest you can go before they start triple winding the strings? Is that correct? I've used higher gauge strings before from Kalium and they just sound totally different to the other strings. As in, it sounds terrible.


From what I understand, .182 was the highest before an extra winding was used... but I heard somewhere on these forums that .190 was the largest. I can't confirm, unfortunately.

But based on that knowledge, I chose .190 at 35" for E on my bass. Bit less tension, but to me it sounds so much better than the .210 I used to have.


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## Orgalmer (Feb 25, 2014)

I find the .182 has a much better tone compared to the .190. Maybe I'm just a sucker for low tension, but I try to focus on getting a good sound out of my instruments and using lower gauge strings seems to work pretty well for me. I had a .064 on my low E when I first got my Carvin, that was probably the lowest I could go.


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## Winspear (Feb 26, 2014)

I meant on the bass E string  I.e. most bassists are using a 100 and would find a 90 too loose, so by that standard it should be doubled for an octave lower. 

I don't feel confident saying for sure as it was a long time ago but I recall that the extra winding point used to be 182 but was increased/was stated as being increased at some point to 190. I'm pretty sure I asked Skip himself and he told me that it was 190 in email but it's long deleted.


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## jimwratt (Feb 27, 2014)

Standard guitar and bass have always had overlapping ranges. It's not like bassists are locked into their lowest octave at all times.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 27, 2014)

Bassists highest string is G2 (4 string)... Guitar 3rd fret.


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## lucasreis (Feb 27, 2014)

jimwratt said:


> Standard guitar and bass have always had overlapping ranges. It's not like bassists are locked into their lowest octave at all times.



True, great angle if you think about it


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## will_shred (Feb 27, 2014)

Sarah Longfield just posted this on facebook, I thought it belonged here. 



> I kind of agree with this, except for one thing. who cares? Say I wanted to buy a 45 stringed guitar and post youtube videos of me making pancakes with it, who gives a flippity ....? Would my pancake making threaten you? Even worse, what if people liked that I made pancakes with a 45 stringed guitar, would that bother you!? People need to un-bunch their undies about extended range stuff, stop making it sound like you need to be skilfully and creatively "qualified" to be interested in ERG's lol. It's not a job, you don't need a degree. If you want to chug away all day, go for it! If you want to be shreddymcshredsaucetosinwasabi then high-five to you!


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 27, 2014)

^^^^Epic win!


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## will_shred (Feb 27, 2014)

My first guitar teacher played a 7 string, I thought it was the coolest thing ever. However I've been into metal since I was 8, so I may be biased.


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## mnemonic (Feb 27, 2014)

haha, Tosin Wasabi.


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## asher (Feb 27, 2014)

mnemonic said:


> haha, Tosin Wasabi.


 
AAL cover band.


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## mnemonic (Feb 27, 2014)

asher said:


> AAL cover band.



I thought it might be like some kind of disgusting Ben & Jerrys flavor endorsed by Tosin.


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## Abaddon9112 (Feb 27, 2014)

When I bought my first seven string the guy behind the counter was some old dude, who said something like "man, you must be better than me, I've never been able to get through six buhahaha". He'd probably been playing for 40 years. In a "Blooz Rahk" band of course. 

I've never owned an 8, but I've played eight strings before in stores and gotten some weird looks from people. It doesn't help that the 8s in stores always have the factory strings on them which are way too floppy. So you end up sounding like shite, and people assume that you can't play the thing. 

ERGs are still kind of niche instruments and most people can't see the use for them. So anyone who plays one must be either an avant-garde virtuoso or crazy.


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## Robby the Robot (Feb 28, 2014)

Actually now that I think about it I do remember when I was trying to get my first 7, which was between a RG7321FM (which if I do find one, I will get one) and an Agile. My uncle tried to tell me to stop 'this seven string nonsense' and get a real guitar, a Fender Deluxe Strat.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 28, 2014)

Get one of the Agile 7-string strats and f*ck with his head


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Feb 28, 2014)

Tell him to stop this electric nonsense and go back to his grandpa's guitars.

I've been on both sides of this topic. I used to hate on 7 strings and thought they were a lame marketing ploy by ibanez and korn (Vai makes it look interesting and technical whereas I found korn to make them seem like a youngster's fad to move product). Especially when I was hearing much better music in the same tunings on 6 strings. On top of that 7 strings had very little pickup options back then.
It seemed as though you could have garbage stagemaster7 stock pickups or "upgrade" to 707s.
Compared to a downtuned 6 string with a myriad of pickup options, I also wasn't finding any decent 7s that didnt feel like chinese turd (no prestige here, ever)

I can relate to the added hate when someone uses it for chugging or skips every middle string and rides the lowest and highest. It's like buying a Hummer or Ferrari to drive down the block and back for groceries. It still bothers me to a degree to buy all the range and have no intention of exploring it. It shouldn't be my concern but I get mad that they aren't pushing themselves to use the whole range and not add to the trend of ERGists being fat single string beaters.

Eventually I picked up a nergal sig in 2010 to try and alleviate the need for 5+ guitars all in different tunings. I was really impressed with it and it got me onto the bandwagon.
Since realizing I enjoyed 7 string I joined this site to explore opinions of 7 gear and was turned onto 8s and then FF.

Now I feel the opposite and yawn and meh at any 6 strings or 7 string...and slowly losing interest in straight 8s. I have a bunch of 6 strings that I never touch anymore, I never find anything remotely interesting in stores either.
I've become spoiled looking at all the fanned gear here. I've got 4 fanned NGDs in my future! Waiting sucks. Hopefully I'm not bored of fanned 8s and move onto 9s and 10s before they arrive.

This place has made me racist against Non-ERG/ERB 
There's no way I can ever recommend a straight/standard scale bass over a dingwall, ever! I'm sure I'll have the same opinion once the fanned guits start showing up.


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## VigilSerus (Feb 28, 2014)

asher said:


> AAL cover band.



Toast in Wasabi ;P


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