# The Big 4 of Death Metal?



## Dawn of the Shred (Feb 3, 2018)

If Death Metal did a big 4 show like the thrash bands, who would be in it? Hell we can make it the big 5 or 10.

I would assume you have to put Morbid Angel in it! Then Suffocation, Dying Fetus, Vital Remains, Deicide, Cannibal Corpse, Hate Eternal, Vitriol, Necrophagist, The Black Dahlia Murder, Origin.... The list could go on and on, but who would be considered as the Big 4, or 5, or 10 of Death Metal??


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## NickS (Feb 3, 2018)

Not sure where the list would even start, and everyone will disagree on what exact genre some bands are...

But, I would say Carcass and Bolt Thrower have to be in there.


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## vilk (Feb 3, 2018)

I've never even heard of Vitriol so idk if they can really be in the Big Four...

I'm thinking more like 
Cannibal Corpse
Morbid Angel
Death
Bolt Thrower
Or maybe Cryptopsy but that might be biased because I am a big fan
Nile is another band that would be in my personal top four but probably shouldn't be in the "Big Four"


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## NickS (Feb 3, 2018)

Well, I guess Death should be the de facto #1 on the list


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 3, 2018)

Morbid Angel, Death, Carcass, Cannibal Corpse, Bolt Thrower

Bands like Necrophagist and TBDM don't really make sense here - they're relative latecomers, and their influence on the overarching death metal scene isn't as widespread. The Big 4 are big because they were successful at a relatively early point in thrash's lifespan, and thus had a big impact on the scene and its offshoots.


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## NickS (Feb 3, 2018)

InfinityCollision said:


> Morbid Angel, Death, Carcass, Cannibal Corpse, Bolt Thrower



Probably these five, but lets see what everyone thinks....


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## beerandbeards (Feb 3, 2018)

Death
Morbid Angel
Cannibal corpse
Carcass
Obituary


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## NickS (Feb 3, 2018)

Good call, how did Obituary even take that long to be mentioned?


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## IGC (Feb 3, 2018)

Death, Deacide, Cannibal, Obituary, Malevolent Creation, Pungent Stench, Embalmer, Morbid Angel


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 3, 2018)

Death
Morbid Angel
Carcass
Bolt Thrower
*not big 4, but still pretty inluential:*
Suffocation
Necrophagist
Behemoth
Nile
*honorable mentions:*
Cynic
Gojira
Entombed
Dying Fetus
Totally disagree about necrophagist not being influential, they may have been later to the scene but they are kind of the godfathers of tech death as far as I'm concerned


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## Necris (Feb 3, 2018)

Let's throw out random names! (I realized once I opened this thread that I couldn't actually name the "big 4" of thrash, I was replacing Megadeth with Exodus and Anthrax with Kreator. )
Possessed, Obituary, Pestilence, Autopsy

Granted, at the time their albums were released Possessed would have been considered Black Metal, since back around that time "Black Metal" was a catch all for bands with occult/satanic lyrics, rather than a style itself.


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 3, 2018)

There’s far too many sub genres to have a big 4; but old school/influential Id list:
Death
Entombed 
Cryptopsy
Morbid Angel


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## Leviathus (Feb 3, 2018)

The lack of Suffocation in this thread bothers me.


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## Ralyks (Feb 3, 2018)

Death, Suffocation, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse.


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## KailM (Feb 3, 2018)

Ralyks said:


> Death, Suffocation, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse.



This, pretty much; when you're looking at their influence on the genre.

I never did get into Morbid Angel. But I realize they belong on the list.

Really though, I don't think a "big 4" really cuts it. Entombed and At The Gates need to be on the list as well. And then there's Bloodbath, Decapitated (early, anyway), Cryptopsy, etc.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 4, 2018)

Infinity’s list minus Bolt thrower. Just because I don’t like slow. But yeah, Carcass all day son.


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## feraledge (Feb 4, 2018)

If we're talking the context of a "Big 4" nerd-out dream scenario, Death and Bolt Thrower are out. Chuck is dead and if I'm not mistaken BT said they're not playing any more shows after their drummer died. 
So...
Carcass
Morbid Angel
Suffocation
Entombed

And what a show it would be.


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## feraledge (Feb 4, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> Infinity’s list minus Bolt thrower. Just because I don’t like slow. But yeah, Carcass all day son.


Bruh...


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## feraledge (Feb 4, 2018)

Also, Bolt Thrower, Napalm Death and Carcass slowing down is effectively how we got death metal.

Additionally, I think Napalm Death deserves more credit here. Minus Jesse Pintado dying, they've had the same line up and have been actively touring with it since 91. AND at this point, have probably released more death metal albums then any other band listed so far.


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## BusinessMan (Feb 4, 2018)

Vader (can't have a death metal show without Vader)
Aeon (their aeons black material)
Decapitated

Can't think of a fourth. If I do I'll post it later


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## Edika (Feb 4, 2018)

It is difficult to choose the big 4 of Death metal as for thrash it was the most popular bands of the scene in the 80's. If you take into account the bands that defined the genre then again there are too many options. Again the big 4 of thrash were only American Bay Area thrash bands and didn't take into account German Thrash bands that were popular in that decade like Kreator, Sodom etc etc.
So if you go by American bands i nthe late 80's and 90's regardless of still being active or not then I'd say Death, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse and I'm between Suffocation and Obituary on the 4th place.

Otherwise most of the bands mentioned so far.


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## Fathand (Feb 4, 2018)

US:
Morbid Andel
Cannibal Corpse
Death
Obituary

Europe:
Entombed
Bolt Thrower
Carcass
At The Gates

Each of these bands pretty much spawned their own Genres, and are still used in reviews to describe bands as "xxxxx" - like. For US I would make it big-5 and add Suffocation, for Europe it was a pick between all the Gothenburg bands, I chose ATG purely because of (my preference for) Slaughter of the Soul. You could argue to put In Flames or Dark Tranquillity there instead for the early records.


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## fps (Feb 4, 2018)

Ralyks said:


> Death, Suffocation, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse.



This would be about right for 4 US bands who provide most well-known blueprints/ fundamentals of death metal as the thrash big 4 do.


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## fps (Feb 4, 2018)

Fathand said:


> US:
> 
> Europe:
> Entombed
> ...



Also this.


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## Razerjack (Feb 4, 2018)

Death is for sure No.1
Cannibal Corpse probably deserves a position for being the most commercially successful
Carcass is just too good
and honestly we have a lot of bands deserving of a position: Morbid Angel, Vader, Suffocation, Entombed, Napalm Death, Obituary... I would go with Entombed to represent the Swedish death genre.


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## zappatton2 (Feb 4, 2018)

Fathand said:


> US:
> Morbid Andel
> Cannibal Corpse
> Death
> ...


This would be my list, though I would personally substitute Obituary with Deicide. That's just me though; I can't say who the bigger influences were.


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## MYGFH (Feb 4, 2018)

Fathand said:


> US:
> Morbid Andel
> Cannibal Corpse
> Death
> ...



^^^ list as complete as it gets. 



Fathand said:


> You could argue to put In Flames or Dark Tranquillity there instead for the early records.



^^^ also Sepultura


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## Ralyks (Feb 4, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Additionally, I think Napalm Death deserves more credit here. Minus Jesse Pintado dying, they've had the same line up and have been actively touring with it since 91. AND at this point, have probably released more death metal albums then any other band listed so far.



While I absolutely love Napalm Death, I put their credit more towards Grindcore.

This can get complicated. I mean Possessed could be on there for pretty much being the first (similar to Overkill as far as Thrash goes. It’s true and you know it). Then when you talk about early Sepultura being Death Metal, you can say the same about early Kreatot. Then Obituary was really early on, etc. I picked my 4 based on longevity and their influence on pretty much every variation of the genre. Any DM band you listen to after the early 90’s will most likely credit at least 1 of those 4.


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## lemeker (Feb 4, 2018)

As far as American bands, I think fathands is on spot. Back im the late 80's early 90's these guys were it. I do think Suffocation do deserve mention, but don't believe they belong. I think the 4 laid the groundwork.

Obituary while heavy I think appeals to a wider audience than Deicide, though I would argue Deicide is the better band and more productive and influential.


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## iamaom (Feb 4, 2018)

Disturbed.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 4, 2018)

Fathand said:


> US:
> Morbid Andel
> Cannibal Corpse
> Death
> ...



I like your separation as I think it makes a lot of sense, especially for the time frame we’re discussing. 
And I amend my opinion to accept that that old Bolt Thrower stuff was pretty sweet. 

I think, personally that if your Europe list ended up moving towards “Carcass, At the Gates, In Flames, Dark Tranquility” then the list has become “Melo-death”, not “death metal”. 

Which is my personal favorite genre ever, and lead most directly into the ‘00’s metal-core genre blowing up here in the US.


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## feraledge (Feb 4, 2018)

Ralyks said:


> While I absolutely love Napalm Death, I put their credit more towards Grindcore.


Historically yes, and Napalm is in my all time top 5. But since the current line up formed in 91. I think the argument could be made that they’ve been more death than grind. Unless we say death grind is genre, which I would accept.


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## Durtal (Feb 4, 2018)

This thread is pretty funny; seeing people including their favourite bands rather than the ones that are actually most important. Cryptopsy and Necrophagist didn't blow up until years after the initial wave of death metal. The "big four" of thrash metal aren't supposed the best thrash bands of all time, they are the four biggest and most influential American bands from the early days of the genre. The death metal equivalent would be a big five:

Death
Morbid Angel
Obituary
Deicide
Cannibal Corpse

Throw in Entombed as well if we're including European bands.


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## Viginez (Feb 4, 2018)

deicide, death, morbid angel, cc
also would take suffo on tour too for sure (to complete the 5)


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 4, 2018)

Durtal said:


> This thread is pretty funny; seeing people including their favourite bands rather than the ones that are actually most important. Cryptopsy and Necrophagist didn't blow up until years after the initial wave of death metal.


I think it depends on where you live. Cryptopsy was huge in Canada and the northern border states. And obviously the lists are about favorites to a degree; it’s just as subjective as “most important”. I’d put them on the list over Cannibal Corpse simply because 75% of the bands shouldn’t be from Tampa FL 
But it quickly turns into sub genre “big 4” debates. Suffocation and Dying Fetus would be on my Brutal Death big 4; Insomnium and DT for melo death etc


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## NickS (Feb 4, 2018)

I was kinda thinking the same thing, if you want to go with "original" (American, anyways) sound of death metal, you have the Tampa sound, plus Buffalo, NY

But for me I would still throw in some of the European greats and that is why I mentioned both Carcass and Bolt Thrower It's all good though, keep the death coming!!!


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 4, 2018)

Death, Morbid Angel, Deicide...pick a fourth between Obituary, Malevolent Creation, Cannibal Corpse and Suffocation.
This is the real sound of US death metal
If you want to go experimental...Carcass, Hypocrisy, loads of others...but I'll keep it to 3 instead of 4 and pick the first 3 I mentioned.
Then if we talk about band that rewrote the music with an album...Carcass with Heartwork and At The Gates with Slaughter Of The Soul must be included


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## Forkface (Feb 4, 2018)

i always considered Atheist to be one of the bands that should be on one of these lists, but nobody mentioned them lol.

but then again, i had no idea who Bolt Thrower was until this thread, so ehhh, maybe i just suck.


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## Dawn of the Shred (Feb 4, 2018)

When I started this thread I didn’t expect so many responses, very cool to see. Glad some Death Metal fans are on here!!


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## Mathemagician (Feb 4, 2018)

I didn’t even realize I grew it in the death metal spiral of the us until I was in college. Lol.


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## cip 123 (Feb 4, 2018)

No Monstrosity in here?


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## Ebony (Feb 4, 2018)

I'll just assume the point is to list groundbreaking bands from the old days.

The list:

- Morbid Angel
- Death
- Entombed/Nihilist
- Atheist
- Suffocation
- In Flames

Honorary mentions:

- Autopsy
- Darkthrone- (no, you read that right).
- At The Gates
- Obituary
- Pestilence
- Dark Tranquility


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## AdamMaz (Feb 4, 2018)

As someone that prefers Swedish death metal, I've always felt like "Big 4" discussion was a Florida thing.


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## xzacx (Feb 4, 2018)

Viginez said:


> deicide, death, morbid angel, cc
> also would take suffo on tour too for sure (to complete the 5)



This is the best list I’ve seen, with extra points for listing Deicide first. I can’t believe how little they’ve been mentioned.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Feb 4, 2018)

Was Deicide really that influential in the early death metal scene? I only like a few songs from them so I don't know too much about them but I don't think I've ever heard them described as a groundbreaking band or even someones favorite band. They've always struck me as more of a middle of the road kinda band, like they're well known just for being around for a while ( I'm not saying they're not talented though). I think Fathand nailed it with his U.S. and EU lists. Any U.S. list that doesn't have Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel and Death on it isn't correct and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any other bands worthy of taking those spots from them. The fourth spot should just alternate between Suffocation and Obituary.


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## zappatton2 (Feb 4, 2018)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> Was Deicide really that influential in the early death metal scene? I only like a few songs from them so I don't know too much about them but I don't think I've ever heard them described as a groundbreaking band or even someones favorite band. They've always struck me as more of a middle of the road kinda band, like they're well known just for being around for a while ( I'm not saying they're not talented though). I think Fathand nailed it with his U.S. and EU lists. Any U.S. list that doesn't have Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel and Death on it isn't correct and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any other bands worthy of taking those spots from them. The fourth spot should just alternate between Suffocation and Obituary.


I suppose I can only speak subjectively on the matter, but I got into death metal at the beginning of the 90's, and Deicide was a big reason for that. Full props to Cannibal Corpse, but Deicide's first two albums were solid from front to back IMO. And Serpents of the Light gets all sorts of scorn from the purists, but I know every word from every song on that album.
It's the perfect "I'm pissed off, and even though I'm an Atheist, God is a helpful strawman with which to harmlessly focus my rage and feel a bit better about the shittiness of existence" album. Every time I hate my life, I put that on, realize Glen hates hit at least as much, and I feel better 
That shit is straight up therapeutic.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2018)

So I got bored and decided to see what wikipedia thinks about Death Metal. Apparently Possessed is one of the pioneers of the genre. I've never fucking heard of Possessed.
They list the pioneers as Possessed, Death, Autopsy, Obituary and Morbid Angel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_metal


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## Durtal (Feb 4, 2018)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> Was Deicide really that influential in the early death metal scene?



Yes, they were one of the first death metal bands to get a lot of attention. Glen's antics helped a lot with that. The first album was easily the most brutal album to come out of Florida at the time.


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## xzacx (Feb 4, 2018)

zappatton2 said:


> I suppose I can only speak subjectively on the matter, but I got into death metal at the beginning of the 90's, and Deicide was a big reason for that. Full props to Cannibal Corpse, but Deicide's first two albums were solid from front to back IMO. And Serpents of the Light gets all sorts of scorn from the purists, but I know every word from every song on that album.
> It's the perfect "I'm pissed off, and even though I'm an Atheist, God is a helpful strawman with which to harmlessly focus my rage and feel a bit better about the shittiness of existence" album. Every time I hate my life, I put that on, realize Glen hates hit at least as much, and I feel better
> That shit is straight up therapeutic.



Serpents of the Light is my favorite Deicide album, and probably a top 5 all-time album period for me (the rest of which are rap and r&b albums haha). It's as catchy as death metal can get, and still really be death metal.

As to their influence, they weren't the _very_ first, but IMO they perfected it - the music, the lyrics, the way they upset parents and politicians. I don't listen to that many different death metal bands (Death, Morbid Angel, CC being the main other ones) because Deicide just wrote better songs than everyone else (to me).

Also, unpopular opinion alert, but I think Obituary is an unlistenably awful band.


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## gunch (Feb 5, 2018)

Immolation, Gorguts, Defeated Sanity and Ulcerate  

There’s a lot of notable bands and even a big 20 wouldn’t cover the major players in each scene time period or sub-genre


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## Fathand (Feb 5, 2018)

I didn't really think about separating melodeath from "just" death metal in my list, because basically in the beginning those were the bands and they pretty much laid down the blueprint for those that came after. All more or less did derivatives of Thrash - some went lower and faster, some took their Iron maiden / Judas Priest influences and made it more melodic. 

I did forget about Deicide though, but still I'd keep my list as it is. IMHO Suffocation (with Death, of course) spawned all these brutal and technical bands with breakdowns and million riffs per song. Deicide did better saleswise, no doubt about that, but where I'm looking at didn't really spawn that many offsprings musically (granted, lyrically they did bring the antichristian/satanic element into the forefront). 

Of course there are plenty others, like Incantation, Immolation, Malevolent Creation etc. - great bands, with some truly killer records (Onward to Golgotha - how about that anti-treble production?) but IMO not as influential as those I listed.


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## watson503 (Feb 5, 2018)

Speaking of Deicide, this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while (Sacrificial Suicide!!!!!!!):


I'll echo a few previous posters and say my Big 4 would be Death, Deicide, Morbid Angel, and CC...Obituary seems to get a lot of love but I'm not a fan of much past their first album.


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## Rosal76 (Feb 5, 2018)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> Was Deicide really that influential in the early death metal scene?



Their music is subjective within everyone but one thing that really helped them get attention is them being adamant/upfront about their Satanism. Anyone can wear a t-shirt with a pentagram that says, "I hate God" and a upside down Crucifix but Glen Benton had a upside down Crucifix burned onto his forehead which, although, can heal, isn't something you can just take off and/or easily hide. Should that make their music more popular? Obviously not, but death metal fans do tend to notice little things and so do music reporters. In his early interviews, the few that he did, Glen was a very serious person. His persona reminded me a lot of Glenn Danzig, who was a also a dead serious person back in his early days. Also, the fact that Deicide didn't really associate with other death metal bands in their community probably helped them get notice, too. Human behavior is to, "watch the quiet ones. What are those guys up to?" IMHO, Deicide, much like Danzig, got a lot of attention from their behaviors in their early day, which in turn for some fans, wanted to check out their music. Musically, I like them and have all their albums but I don't think they did anything that other bands weren't already doing and/or have done already.


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## n4t (Feb 5, 2018)

Deicide
Obituary
Pestilence
Suffocation

These are basically what everyone I knew was listening to in the early 90's. The best of what was going on then. And each with a unique sound. If I want to listen to 'Death Metal' this is what I still dial up. I love some of the new/recent bands too, but does not apply to the discussion IMO.

Honorable Mention:
Death, Morbid Angel, Carcass, Cannibal Corpse, Monstrosity, Entombed, At the Gates, Grave

EDIT: Nowadays each of these bands would be assigned a different genre.


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## Rosal76 (Feb 5, 2018)

xzacx said:


> Also, unpopular opinion alert, but I think Obituary is an unlistenably awful band.



They did have their own style which I consider, "the slow grinding, slow monster crawling, death metal sound" and Allen West had that "slow, haunting, guitar solo feel" as opposed to the fast and furious, million notes per minute other death metal leads have. Though, I don't listen to them as much as I used to, I give them credit for filling in a void.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2018)

I'll be honest, I don't get the reverence for early 90s DM albums barring the really early stuff from Morbid Angel, Carcass or Obituary. Most of the early stuff sounds like muddy shit. CC, Deicide and Autopsy in particular come to mind. Hell even Death's first couple of albums sound like absolute shit (and I say that as a big death fan). I'm actually glad the genre as a whole moved onto something other than detuned thrash with shitty solos rivaling those from slayer. I think DM is in a better place anymore with the better production value/relatively better songwriting in more recent albums/newer bands.


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## xzacx (Feb 5, 2018)

Rosal76 said:


> *They did have their own style* which I consider, "the slow grinding, slow monster crawling, death metal sound". And Allen West had that "slow, haunting guitar solo feel as opposed to the fast and furious, million notes per minute other death metal leads have. Though, I don't listen to them as much as I used to, I give them credit for filling in a void.



I can't deny that - they definitely did their own thing. It's just that their own thing is about the exact opposite of what I like in death metal, personally. I even think they're fairly influential. Then again, when one of my friends describe a band as sounding like Obituary it's usually a method of saying they suck in a particular type of way, rather than a compliment.


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## Durtal (Feb 5, 2018)

xzacx said:


> I can't deny that - they definitely did their own thing. It's just that their own thing is about the exact opposite of what I like in death metal, personally. I even think they're fairly influential. Then again, when one of my friends describe a band as sounding like Obituary it's usually a method of saying they suck in a particular type of way, rather than a compliment.



Ha, I love the first two Obituary albums. Do you like doom metal at all? There is some overlap there. How about Celtic Frost?


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## xzacx (Feb 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'll be honest, I don't get the reverence for early 90s DM albums barring the really early stuff from Morbid Angel, Carcass or Obituary. Most of the early stuff sounds like muddy shit. CC, Deicide and Autopsy in particular come to mind. Hell even Death's first couple of albums sound like absolute shit (and I say that as a big death fan). I'm actually glad the genre as a whole moved onto something other than *detuned* thrash with shitty solos rivaling those from slayer. I think DM is in a better place anymore with the better production value/relatively better songwriting in more recent albums/newer bands.



To each their own - if you don't like how it sounds, you don't like it. But it seems like modern bands tune a lot lower than the older bands you mention. Deicide used Eb. CC have gotten super low now stuff off The Bleeding and Tomb of the Mutilated, for example, was Eb. Death used D. Morbid Angel used 7s at times, but even Covenant was mostly in Eb. Slowly We Rot was in E standard! I don't say that to argue with you about what you do or don't like, but the fact that that stuff isn't tuned super low is one of the things I've always found appealing about that era.


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## Durtal (Feb 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'll be honest, I don't get the reverence for early 90s DM albums barring the really early stuff from Morbid Angel, Carcass or Obituary. Most of the early stuff sounds like muddy shit. CC, Deicide and Autopsy in particular come to mind. Hell even Death's first couple of albums sound like absolute shit (and I say that as a big death fan). I'm actually glad the genre as a whole moved onto something other than detuned thrash with shitty solos rivaling those from slayer. I think DM is in a better place anymore with the better production value/relatively better songwriting in more recent albums/newer bands.



Some of us like extreme metal that sounds raw and grimy. I actually think most modern death metal sounds pretty weak compared to the classics. Care to name some of the modern bands you think are an improvement on the old school stuff?


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2018)

Durtal said:


> Some of us like extreme metal that sounds raw and grimy. I actually think most modern death metal sounds pretty weak compared to the classics. Care to name some of the modern bands you think are an improvement on the old school stuff?


It's more a comment on production values for some of those bands at the time. The poor production value/overall muddiness of the songs on a lot of 90s DM is what I mean
Granted my taste is more towards melo/prog/tech death overall so obviously my list reflects that:
More recent: Beyond Creation, Job For a Cowboy (from Sun Eater onwards), Gojira, Infernal Faith, Obscura
Less recent: Necrophagist, Cynic, early Arch Enemy, Behemoth, Dying Fetus, At the Gates, Carcass from Heartwork onwards, Gordian Knot, Blotted Science


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## xzacx (Feb 5, 2018)

Durtal said:


> Ha, I love the first two Obituary albums. Do you like doom metal at all? There is some overlap there. How about Celtic Frost?



I actually don't hate Slowly We Rot and Cause of Death, although you probably won't catch me turning either of them on ever. I'm pretty immature with my tastes - "faster" pretty much always equals "better," so I've never had much time for doom. I wouldn't say I'm a big Celtic Frost fan, but I do like Morbid Tales - never got into anything after very much though.


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## Ebony (Feb 5, 2018)

I like old and new, muddy and clicky.


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## NickS (Feb 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's more a comment on production values for some of those bands at the time. The poor production value/overall muddiness of the songs on a lot of 90s DM is what I mean
> Granted my taste is more towards melo/prog/tech death overall so obviously my list reflects that:
> More recent: Beyond Creation, Job For a Cowboy (from Sun Eater onwards), Gojira, Infernal Faith, Obscura
> Less recent: Necrophagist, Cynic, early Arch Enemy, Behemoth, Dying Fetus, At the Gates, Carcass from Heartwork onwards, Gordian Knot, Blotted Science



I love pretty much all the beauty/power/heaviness/grind/melody, or whatever you want to call it, that Death Metal as a whole gives us. But I would lean more toward the melodic and tech parts in particular as far as what I will commonly
listen to. I don't really find myself listening to Morbid Angel or Obituary that often, for instance, but I'm glad it's there when needed to scratch that particular itch, and then I file it away and go on my merry way back home to Heartwork-era
Carcass or the like

That's what I LOVE about metal in general, theres something here for everyone if you look hard enough....

....Now back to learning this damn Lindsey Buckingham guitar part


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## Durtal (Feb 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's more a comment on production values for some of those bands at the time. The poor production value/overall muddiness of the songs on a lot of 90s DM is what I mean
> Granted my taste is more towards melo/prog/tech death overall so obviously my list reflects that:
> More recent: Beyond Creation, Job For a Cowboy (from Sun Eater onwards), Gojira, Infernal Faith, Obscura
> Less recent: Necrophagist, Cynic, early Arch Enemy, Behemoth, Dying Fetus, At the Gates, Carcass from Heartwork onwards, Gordian Knot, Blotted Science



Yeah, the only bands I think are really great on that list are At the Gates and Necrophagist, although Gojira are fantastic live. Pretty much all of them sound too clean and nice to me and don't sound as ugly and dark as death metal should. The latter day death metal bands I've enjoyed the most would be stuff like Dead Congregation, Repugnant, Drowned and Necros Christos.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2018)

Durtal said:


> Yeah, the only bands I think are really great on that list are At the Gates and Necrophagist, although Gojira are fantastic live. Pretty much all of them sound too clean and nice to me and don't sound as ugly and dark as death metal should. The latter day death metal bands I've enjoyed the most would be stuff like Dead Congregation, Repugnant, Drowned and Necros Christos.


different stroke for different folks and all that jazz. Necrophagist/Gojira/Dying fetus were fucking amazing everytime I saw them live. They sounded as good as they did on their albums, which I vastly prefer to the alternative like when I saw Tyr/Ensiferum live and they were horrible/nothing like the album sound. I like bands that can actually play their music live lol


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## NickS (Feb 5, 2018)

/\ I definitely agree with that! Dying Fetus slays live I saw them open for Gwar and they killed. Bands like this are soooo much better when they can pull it off live.


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## DiezelMonster (Feb 5, 2018)

Morbid Angel
Nocturnus 
Death
Cannibal Corpse

If I were to write a list to just include bands that were still together and actively touring and putting out music it would look a little different. Maybe add Hate Eternal and Cryptopsy.


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## Viginez (Feb 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's more a comment on production values for some of those bands at the time. The poor production value/overall muddiness of the songs on a lot of 90s DM is what I mean
> Granted my taste is more towards melo/prog/tech death overall so obviously my list reflects that:
> More recent: Beyond Creation, Job For a Cowboy (from Sun Eater onwards), Gojira, Infernal Faith, Obscura
> Less recent: Necrophagist, Cynic, early Arch Enemy, Behemoth, Dying Fetus, At the Gates, Carcass from Heartwork onwards, Gordian Knot, Blotted Science


on that list i detect only two (with carcass maybe three) death metal bands. others are sub genres that have nothing to do with the classic death metal sound. most you named is melodic or progressive stuff.
edit: i overlooked you wrote this: Granted my taste is more towards melo/prog/tech death


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## ArtDecade (Feb 5, 2018)

Cannibal Corpse x4


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2018)

Viginez said:


> on that list i detect only two (with carcass maybe three) death metal bands. others are sub genres that have nothing to do with the classic death metal sound. most you named is melodic or progressive stuff.


I literally wrote that my preference was towards melo/prog/tech death in that post  If we're talking early 90s DM then I also referenced my preferences in a previous post. I like Bolt Thrower, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Carcass, Death and Suffocation.


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## bostjan (Feb 5, 2018)

Gee, there are a vast number of ways to interpret that question. I mean, when I think of early death metal, I think of Deicide, Obituary, Morbid Angel, and Cannibal Corpse, but that's just my experience. I'm sure everyone else's opinion on this is just as valid, if not more.

As much as I'm a huge Death fan, I don't know that they really fit in with the rest of that era. They sort of do, but sort of stand out, as well. I think Atheist was a huge influence on later Death, so much so, that Death is really not just one band, in my mind, but early Death and later Death, with the two sounding totally different from one another.

Entombed and Bolt Thrower are also great bands, but I don't know if they were quite as influential. But that's the thing about DM in general, that it's so segregated into differnt camps or factions with different influences. Maybe the concept of a "Big 4 of DM" is kind of impossible with that in mind?


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## KailM (Feb 5, 2018)

Durtal said:


> Pretty much all of them sound too clean and nice to me and don't sound as *ugly and dark as death metal should*. The latter day death metal bands I've enjoyed the most would be stuff like Dead Congregation, Repugnant, Drowned and Necros Christos.





This is probably going off on a tangent, but the majority of "modern" death metal isn't really death metal at all (death-core is not death metal; Neither is "tech-death", usually.)

This is _DEATH_ metal we're talking about here. It's supposed to sound wretched, putrid, and filthy, with a sense that the band only gave a [email protected] _just enough_ for it to sound like a cohesive unit. Do you wanna know what's faster than fast? When I check out a "death" metal band's album on Youtube for the first time and I hear that overly-produced-and-edited-snapped-to-the-grid painful duck-quack djent tone. My hand hits the "X" button faster than the speed of [email protected]#ing light. 

For me, a death metal band needs to have a gnarly tone. The absolute limit for me would be At The Gates' At War With Reality album. That production was very nearly too polished for me. But I forgave it because the songs and riffs were awesome and well...it's _At The Gates. _By the sound of it, they've used a gnarlier production for their new album. There's going to be an Hm-2 in there...


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2018)

KailM said:


> This is probably going off on a tangent, but the majority of "modern" death metal isn't really death metal at all (death-core is not death metal; Neither is "tech-death", usually.)
> 
> This is _DEATH_ metal we're talking about here. It's supposed to sound wretched, putrid, and filthy, with a sense that the band only gave a [email protected] _just enough_ for it to sound like a cohesive unit. Do you wanna know what's faster than fast? When I check out a "death" metal band's album on Youtube for the first time and I hear that overly-produced-and-edited-snapped-to-the-grid painful duck-quack djent tone. My hand hits the "X" button faster than the speed of [email protected]#ing light.
> 
> For me, a death metal band needs to have a gnarly tone. The absolute limit for me would be At The Gates' At War With Reality album. That production was very nearly too polished for me. But I forgave it because the songs and riffs were awesome and well...it's _At The Gates. _By the sound of it, they've used a gnarlier production for their new album. There's going to be an Hm-2 in there...


See this is where i find a point of contention. Death metal as a whole is about the horrors of the world, both war( amon amarth, bolt thrower), body horror (late death,carcass,necrophagist, cc) and religious/supernatural themes (behemoth,deicide, morbid angel,etc). I think the underlying heaviness of the subject matter matters more than any particular sonic signature.


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## Necris (Feb 5, 2018)

To continue the tangent, for the sake of discussion, interestingly defining a genre by it's subject matter is basically the exact same as the old "Black Metal" definition I mentioned a few pages back. Occult/Satanic subject lyrics were once the defining feature of Black Metal, it had no "sound", as such you had bands like Sodom, Bathory, Slayer, Mercyful Fate etc. defined as Black Metal; that description probably makes perfect sense for those bands but you also had bands like Running Wild (First couple albums) and Oz (Turn the Cross Upside Down) considered black metal solely because of their lyrical content.


^(This song has a great solo, just throwing that out there. )


Is this black metal solely because of lyrics about "the Occult" make up a large part of the lyrical subject matter? Technically, by the old definition, yes. But is the sonic signature, or the music in what you'd think of now if I mentioned Black metal?

Just for fun, the "Death Metal" split from 1984, featuring: Running Wild, Hellhammer, Dark Avenger, and Helloween:


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2018)

Necris said:


> To continue the tangent, for the sake of discussion, interestingly defining a genre by it's subject matter is basically the exact same as the old "Black Metal" definition I mentioned a few pages back. Occult/Satanic subject lyrics were once the defining feature of Black Metal, it had no "sound", as such you had bands like Sodom, Bathory, Slayer, Mercyful Fate etc. defined as Black Metal; that description probably makes perfect sense for those bands but you also had bands like Running Wild (First couple albums) and Oz (Turn the Cross Upside Down) considered black metal solely because of their lyrical content.
> 
> 
> ^(This song has a great solo, just throwing that out there. )
> ...



In the context of early 80s metal, yes, that's exactly what I'd expect. I get a bit of a venom/Bathory vibe from running wild. Oz is obviously harder to categorize but still fits in with early 80s metal.
I'm basically just mutating the definition of metal in general to more specifically fit common themes in death metal. Metal as a whole deals with social commentary/addressing controversial/heavy issues and topics, but death metal tended to push that to the extreme (ie singing about purulent abdominal emanations, other medical pathologies, infanticide, satanism, etc).


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## Necris (Feb 5, 2018)

Around that time ('84-85) you also had N.M.E., Parabellum, Necrodeath and Poison (the german one) who were more in line with early Bathory/Slayer, but they were still in their demo phase at that point. If you are into that sound _and can tolerate 80's demo production_ check them out.

Anyway, as "elitist" as it may sound I think for genre descriptions to be meaningful at all they must necessarily be able to exclude. Personally, I'd never consider Gojira, Gordian Knot or Blotted Science death metal - your list is actually the first time I've seen any of them described as such. I like the latter two, too. The rest of your list is quite deep in "technical/progressive death metal" territory, but it's still very arguably death metal (maybe excluding Job for a Cowboy, I know them as a deathcore band, but I haven't actually heard anything of theirs them in over a decade, so things could have changed).



Ebony said:


> I like old and new, muddy and clicky.


Oh boy, do I have some bands for you then!


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

Necris said:


> Around that time ('84-85) you also had N.M.E., Parabellum, Necrodeath and Poison (the german one) who were more in line with early Bathory/Slayer, but they were still in their demo phase at that point. If you are into that sound _and can tolerate 80's demo production_ check them out.
> 
> Anyway, as "elitist" as it may sound I think for genre descriptions to be meaningful at all they must necessarily be able to exclude. Personally, I'd never consider Gojira, Gordian Knot or Blotted Science death metal - your list is actually the first time I've seen any of them described as such. I like the latter two, too. The rest of your list is quite deep in "technical/progressive death metal" territory, but it's still very arguably death metal (maybe excluding Job for a Cowboy, I know them as a deathcore band, but I haven't actually heard anything of theirs them in over a decade, so things could have changed).
> 
> ...



Gojira is generally referenced as death metal or prog, though it depends on the album. Terra incognita, The Link, L'enfant sauvage, and my personal favorite The Way of All Flesh would be considered more death metal, while From Mars to Sirius and Magma are more prog. I'd argue early Gojira is death metal if early Sepultura is considered death metal. You can feel the influence of early Sepultura (I'm talking roots and earlier) all over Gojira's music. Gordian Knot and Blotted Science both fall more on the tech/prog death side but there's definitely the dna of death metal there. Job For A Cowboy was solidly in the deathcore camp until Sun Eater where they became more of a techy death band.


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## Fathand (Feb 6, 2018)

I'd never put even early Sepultura as death metal, that's still very Sodomesque Thrash metal. And Gojira has never been even close to death metal. People who reference Gojira as death metal, have usually not heard any "actual" death metal. A few grunts and some blasting does not death metal make (IMO). 

Also, what to know what was the earliest deathcore band? Suffocation - they have more breakdown parts people usually remember - we also could talk about Devourment and the millions of "Slam Gore Death" bands they are to be blamed for, but let's not go there. Let's just listen to "Molesting the Decapitated" and enjoy.


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## Durtal (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> See this is where i find a point of contention. Death metal as a whole is about the horrors of the world, both war( amon amarth, bolt thrower), body horror (late death,carcass,necrophagist, cc) and religious/supernatural themes (behemoth,deicide, morbid angel,etc). I think the underlying heaviness of the subject matter matters more than any particular sonic signature.



Absolutely not. How would we distinguish black metal from death metal then? Behemoth, Deicide and Morbid Angel all have lyrical themes that fit in fine with black metal. Behemoth even used to be a black metal band. And what stops Slayer from being a death metal band with this definition?



Fathand said:


> And Gojira has never been even close to death metal. People who reference Gojira as death metal, have usually not heard any "actual" death metal. A few grunts and some blasting does not death metal make (IMO).



From Mars to Sirius has Morbid Angel-esque riffs all over it.


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## KailM (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> See this is where i find a point of contention. Death metal as a whole is about the horrors of the world, both war( amon amarth, bolt thrower), body horror (late death,carcass,necrophagist, cc) and religious/supernatural themes (behemoth,deicide, morbid angel,etc). I think the underlying heaviness of the subject matter matters more than any particular sonic signature.



Ehhh, to me it's always been primarily about the sound, because the lyrical content you described could practically be applied to most music within the general umbrella of "metal." Even Black Sabbath could have been considered 'death metal' if all it takes is a religious/supernatural theme. Most thrash bands of the 80s also covered the same topics.

FWIW, I don't care much about the lyrics. The overall feeling I get from the music is more important. In fact, with some of these bands, I'd rather _not_ know the lyrics, haha.

I'm not here to be an elitist though; people can like what they want, and can call their favorite music whatever they want. But if I'm in the mood for death metal, then there is a pretty strict set of criteria I apply -- some bands have it, others don't. Usually the 'modern' bands tend to incorporate too many elements that are not in line with the death metal aesthetic (i.e. -- pristine production, guitar tone that is too polished, and drums that are too clicky). I may listen to some of those bands and enjoy them for their creativity and skill, but I don't view them from the lens of being death metal.


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## DiezelMonster (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Gojira is generally referenced as death metal or prog, though it depends on the album. Terra incognita, The Link, L'enfant sauvage, and my personal favorite The Way of All Flesh would be considered more death metal, while From Mars to Sirius and Magma are more prog. I'd argue early Gojira is death metal if early Sepultura is considered death metal. You can feel the influence of early Sepultura (I'm talking roots and earlier) all over Gojira's music. Gordian Knot and Blotted Science both fall more on the tech/prog death side but there's definitely the dna of death metal there. Job For A Cowboy was solidly in the deathcore camp until Sun Eater where they became more of a techy death band.



I'm sorry I will 100% disagree with Gordian Knot having any Death Metal lineage, It has people that WERE in death metal bands but that is where it ends. I've listened to both the self titled and Emergent more than I can count. Nothing death metal about those records. It's is progressive but has so many genres intertwined, however death metal is NOT one of them.


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## DiezelMonster (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Gojira is generally referenced as death metal or prog, though it depends on the album. Terra incognita, The Link, L'enfant sauvage, and my personal favorite The Way of All Flesh would be considered more death metal, while From Mars to Sirius and Magma are more prog. I'd argue early Gojira is death metal if early Sepultura is considered death metal. You can feel the influence of early Sepultura (I'm talking roots and earlier) all over Gojira's music. Gordian Knot and Blotted Science both fall more on the tech/prog death side but there's definitely the dna of death metal there. Job For A Cowboy was solidly in the deathcore camp until Sun Eater where they became more of a techy death band.



I'm sorry I will 100% disagree with Gordian Knot having any Death Metal lineage, It has people that WERE in death metal bands but that is where it ends. I've listened to both the self titled and Emergent more than I can count. Nothing death metal about those records. It's is progressive but has so many genres intertwined, however death metal is NOT one of them.


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## xzacx (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> You can feel the influence of *early Sepultura* (I'm talking *roots* and earlier) all over Gojira's music.



Wait a minute, since when is Roots "early Sepultura." I mean, I get that it's actually old now, but there's a clear delineation between "early Sepultura" and that era. Chaos AD and Roots were when they fell off and became a nu-metal band - those albums don't have anything to do with the ones that came before them. My point is, being influenced by Roots would yield a completely different type of band than Schizophrenia. I've never been able to make it through an entire Gojira song though, so I couldn't say how they fit in here, but they sure never sounded like death metal, or actual early Sepultura, from the couple times I tried listening to them.


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## bostjan (Feb 6, 2018)

You have Thrash Sepultura 1985-ish to 1992, Nümetal Sepultura 1993-1996, and then New Sepultura 1998-present. I don't see how any of them make me think of Death Metal, personally, but, again, the term has totally different meanings to different people.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

xzacx said:


> Wait a minute, since when is Roots "early Sepultura." I mean, I get that it's actually old now, but there's a clear delineation between "early Sepultura" and that era. Chaos AD and Roots were when they fell off and became a nu-metal band - those albums don't have anything to do with the ones that came before them. My point is, being influenced by Roots would yield a completely different type of band than Schizophrenia. I've never been able to make it through an entire Gojira song though, so I couldn't say how they fit in here, but they sure never sounded like death metal, or actual early Sepultura, from the couple times I tried listening to them.


I said ROOTS AND EARLIER. Gojira clearly took influence from the ethnic sounds on Roots but overall they still have the DNA from *Morbid Visions and Schizophrenia*. Joe Duplantier even mentions in interviews that Sepultura were a big influence on them.
Listen to The Way of All Flesh Album or L'enfant Sauvage, they're very much within the realm of death metal.


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## Ralyks (Feb 6, 2018)

As far a Sepultura goes, I would say Bestial Devastation was a death metal record, and Morbid Visions had a big death metal element to it. Schizophrenia is when they went full thrash.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

DiezelMonster said:


> I'm sorry I will 100% disagree with Gordian Knot having any Death Metal lineage, It has people that WERE in death metal bands but that is where it ends. I've listened to both the self titled and Emergent more than I can count. Nothing death metal about those records. It's is progressive but has so many genres intertwined, however death metal is NOT one of them.


I was actually thinking of Gorguts, but I typed Gordian Knot. my bad, I was drinking while typing some of this stuff


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## bostjan (Feb 6, 2018)

At least "metal" is one thing we can usually agree on. 

I think it's a bit sad that some forum users can't "make it through an entire ... song" from Gojira, since Gojira is a kick-ass metal band in any case.

@KnightBrolaire , comparing the album you posted with, say Morbid Angel's "Altars of Madness" or "Blessed Are the Sick," or Obituary's "World Demise" or Deicide's "Legion" or Cannibal Corpse's "Tomb of the Mutilated," I'm getting a totally different vibe from those five albums than I get from Gojira. That's not to say Gojira is less heavy, on the contrary, I think they are more heavy than those examples, but heaviness =/= death-metal-ness, IMO.

But this is extremely subjective.

When I was in my early teens, if a band had a band name that had something to do with death or dead bodies, and had depictions of death or dead bodies on their album covers, and their mixes sounded like a mess of trebly guitars with blast beats that sounded like "taptaptaptaptaptaptaptap..." and vocals that sounded like any sort of farm animal being butchered, I would not hesitate to call the band "death metal." For my eyes and ears, Gojira skirts many of those "requirements" but doesn't fit.

If I were to do a "Death Metal" thing, I would choose a name of some medical thing out of a medical dictionary, like "Livor Mortis" or something, then choose album art that was zombies eating impaled corpses or something of that nature, and then find a drummer who could do wicked blast beats and a bass player who has no problem not being heard, then get a lead singer from MacDonald's farm down the street (a pig or a cow or a chicken, maybe) and write lyrics about whatever (it doesn't matter because hardly anyone will understand them) and record everything on tinny equipment. 

A more modern take might be to pick a name that doesn't matter and then have the band's logo be a rose bush, and then do the same, except with marginally better sound quality and a more abstract set of album art.

I wouldn't want to argue any of these bands are or are not "death metal," since it's really kind of lacking any universal definition of the genre. There's metal, then there's a continuous spectrum of "extreme" metal, and then there's this even more vague axis of how "death metal" a band or album is if it somehow fits in the more extreme end of the spectrum of metal and ticks off certain other boxes, which vary from person to person.


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## xzacx (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I said ROOTS AND EARLIER. Gojira clearly took influence from the ethnic sounds on Roots but overall they still have the DNA from *Morbid Visions and Schizophrenia*. Joe Duplantier even mentions in interviews that Sepultura were a big influence on them.
> Listen to The Way of All Flesh Album or L'enfant Sauvage, they're very much within the realm of death metal.




Yeah man, I checked it out - it doesn't sound like death metal to me. Being influenced by Sepultura would be further evidence of that, as I don't really think of Seplutura as a death metal band outside of Bestial Devastation. (I'm not saying they don't have elements of it, I just think they were at their best if full thrash mode.) Even then though, I hear a lot more of the Sepultura I don't like in Gojira, than the Sepultura I do like. Never in my life would I be in the mood to listen to death metal, and _that_ be the sound I wanted to hear. Doesn't mean I think it sucks (I do, but that's not my point - I'm happy to not pay attention to music I don't like without criticizing it), it just isn't something that interests me or that I think relates when we're talking about death metal.




bostjan said:


> I think it's a bit sad that some forum users can't "make it through an entire ... song" from Gojira, since Gojira is a kick-ass metal band in any case.



That's me. I just don't get it. I've tried many times. Just not my thing. It's not that I think they suck as a band, they just play stuff that doesn't appeal to me. Cool that other people like them though.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

bostjan said:


> At least "metal" is one thing we can usually agree on.
> 
> I think it's a bit sad that some forum users can't "make it through an entire ... song" from Gojira, since Gojira is a kick-ass metal band in any case.
> 
> ...


It's kind of a running joke at this point about death metal band logos and how nobody can read them, but also how nobody can understand the vocals. I've definitely seen some memes surrounding medical pathologies and how they read off like Carcass, etc lyrics. I think death metal is a bit more inclusive of a term than just tampa/buffalo 90s DM, especially given the different sound between say Obituary and Cannibal Corpse, or later Death/ Morbid Angel.
Honestly the closest to Gojira as far as 90s DM would be Morbid Angel's Covenant/Domination albums. As far as specific songs I'd say Where the Slime Live, Leading the Rats, Rapture, World of Shit, Vengeance is Mine, God of Emptiness. There is definitely some Sepultura/Death influence mixed in as well.


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## Rosal76 (Feb 6, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Cannibal Corpse x4



It will be a 4 hour show with their different lineups over the years.

1st hour: With Chris Barnes and Bob Rusay.
2nd hour: With George Fisher and Rob Barrett.
3rd hour: With Pat O'Brien.
4th hour: Current lineup.


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## xzacx (Feb 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think death metal is a bit more inclusive of a term than just tampa/buffalo 90s DM, especially given the different sound between say Obituary and Cannibal Corpse, or later Death/ Morbid Angel.
> Honestly the closest to Gojira as far as 90s DM would be Morbid Angel's Covenant/Domination albums. As far as specific songs I'd say Where the Slime Live, Leading the Rats, Rapture, World of Shit, Vengeance is Mine, God of Emptiness. There is definitely some Sepultura/Death influence mixed in as well.



I totally agree that some of these bands' sounds changed at different points in their careers. As much as I like some Death, there's a pretty decent chunk of their catalog I don't really care for or consider death metal (in my narrow view of the genre). And obviously Morbid Angel has an era that I think a lot of us would like to forget. (I do like their latest album though.) I think that's one of the reasons that I hold Deicide in such high regard. Sure, they've had albums that were better than others, but even after the Hoffman brothers left, they put out solid albums that didn't stray too far from the sound I like.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

xzacx said:


> I totally agree that some of these bands' sounds changed at different points in their careers. As much as I like some Death, there's a pretty decent chunk of their catalog I don't really care for or consider death metal (in my narrow view of the genre). And obviously Morbid Angel has an era that I think a lot of us would like to forget. (I do like their latest album though.)


I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this but I liked Illud. I hated Heretic though.


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## Rosal76 (Feb 6, 2018)

xzacx said:


> I think that's one of the reasons that I hold Deicide in such high regard. Sure, they've had albums that were better than others, but even after the Hoffman brothers left, they put out solid albums that didn't stray too far from the sound I like.



Some time ago, I read an interview in which Glen Benton stated that drummer, Steve Ashiem, wrote a good chunk of their music, past and present. I noticed that the inlay cards for their earlier albums always said, "Music written by Deicide" instead of "Music written by Eric and Brian Hoffman" In recent years, though, the inlay cards now credit the individual who wrote what song and I have noticed that Steve is credited with a lot of songwriting.

Saying all that, I think that's why Deicide is able to retain a sense of continuity with their music because of Steve's long experience with songwriting.


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## Durtal (Feb 6, 2018)

xzacx said:


> And obviously Morbid Angel has an era that I think a lot of us would like to forget. (I do like their latest album though.)



I hope you're not including Covenant, Domination or Gateway in that era (those being the albums that had the biggest influence on Gojira).



KnightBrolaire said:


> See this is where i find a point of contention. Death metal as a whole is about the horrors of the world, both war( amon amarth, bolt thrower), body horror (late death,carcass,necrophagist, cc) and religious/supernatural themes (behemoth,deicide, morbid angel,etc). I think the underlying heaviness of the subject matter matters more than any particular sonic signature.





KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this but I liked Illud. I hated Heretic though.



If you think that death metal is defined by its lyrical themes more than its sound and that Illud is in any way good album, never mind better than Heretic then our views on the genre are too far apart to have a meaningful conversation about it.


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## xzacx (Feb 6, 2018)

Durtal said:


> I hope you're not including Covenant, Domination or Gateway in that era (those being the albums that had the biggest influence on Gojira).



No way - I'm referring to Illud very specifically haha.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

Durtal said:


> If you think that death metal is defined by its lyrical themes more than its sound and that Illud is in any way good album, never mind better than Heretic then our views on the genre are too far apart to have a meaningful conversation about it.


It's been a while since i've listened to heretic or Illud. I had them confused, I thought Heretic was the one with the shitty industrial parts, when that was Illud. i fucked up :/


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## Eptaceros (Feb 6, 2018)

I love me some death metal, but this is an impossible topic. Like others have already said, there are too many influential bands from the early days. All more or less within the same time frame. 

However, I am surprised that Suffocation doesn't have as many mentions here as the other big American bands. There's such a steep drop into brutality when you look at Suffocation compared to other bands of their time. All the other bands still had that thrash-roots stamp in their sound, while Suffocation was doing something way different and absurdly brutal. Also, I'd say that Suffocation has been by far the busiest of the old school DM bands. They're still actively touring!


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## prlgmnr (Feb 6, 2018)

Now would be a good time to go to Black Metal University:





I know this thread is about death metal but there's good stuff in there about some of the "precursor" bands.

I don't think it would be the worst thing if Slayer got "accidentally" lumped in with death metal, a fair percentage of, say, Nile riffs could slot in on Reign in Blood if you dialed back the tempo a tad.

Having said that, I suppose you can influence a genre without belonging to that genre.

Ultimately I'm only worried about whether it makes me want to bang my head/drive a tank over a pile of corpses/etc.


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## oompa (Feb 6, 2018)

Still gotta say, imo if it is difficult to agree on what should be included one can go about it the other way and see if people can agree on what bands cannot be excluded, and from my experience being in the DM scene for 20 years, I haven't found many people who could exclude Death, Cannibal Corpse or Morbid Angel.

After those three bands people can argue what bands should also be there but it is pretty rare for anyone to argue that any of those should not be there. So maybe for me those would make a big three.

Also: I have watched the Fenriz stuff posted before and I have heard his point of view of how BM (and to some extent DM) came about and he is so spot on I would advice anyone who is curious to give his view of events a try.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Now would be a good time to go to Black Metal University:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read some books years ago about the history of metal (Encyclopedia of Metal by Daniel Bukszpan and Sound of the Beast by Ian Christe). Both of them pretty much covered everything from the late 70s all the way up to the mid 2000s. Fenriz is pretty much dead on from the main parts I remember about thrash/black metal/death metal.


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## Fathand (Feb 7, 2018)

Durtal said:


> From Mars to Sirius has Morbid Angel-esque riffs all over it.



Influenced by DM yes, but I personally wouldn't still count it as death metal. But these are personal and complicated formulas to decode - in my head what makes any genre is a combination of music, vocals, production, lyrics and overall feel. And as an output from that formula Gojira doesn't fit the DM box. Great band nevertheless and I've listened it a lot too (especially From Mars to Sirius).


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## Axe Cop (Feb 8, 2018)

Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Possessed


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## Ralyks (Feb 9, 2018)

Axe Cop said:


> Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Possessed



Honestly, I wouldn’t argue with this list either.


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## Andromalia (Feb 9, 2018)

Death metal is Maiden tuned to B with double kick drums and guttural vocals.

More seriously, DM has changed so much over time and there is so much overlap than I just gave up. I classify metal as "my head is moving" and "meh".

PS: when you think about it, especially from a composition standpoint and the melodies and scales used, the first startement is really on target. Except I can't see any melodies in Cannibal Corpse.


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## Eptaceros (Feb 9, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Death metal is Maiden tuned to B with double kick drums and guttural vocals.



Most death metal is definitely not in this category. However, you did perfectly describe In Flames.


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## prlgmnr (Feb 9, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Death metal is Maiden tuned to B with double kick drums and guttural vocals.



That's one strand, but then you've also got "Slayer riffs, but faster", "Slayer riffs, but slower" and "Slayer riffs, but slower, but the drums are faster"


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## Esp Griffyn (Feb 11, 2018)

You can't have a death metal "big 4" with Cannibal Corpse.


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## KailM (Feb 11, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> You can't have a death metal "big 4" with Cannibal Corpse.


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## NickS (Feb 11, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> You can't have a death metal "big 4" with Cannibal Corpse.



I only just realized after @KailM post that you said "with" That don't make no sense??


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## Might-is-Right (Feb 11, 2018)

Death, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse have to be in there. Suffocation or Bolt Thrower as the arguable 4th. I don't really see Possessed in this as they weren't very influential to the Death Metal scene, more on the thrash side (this is from someone who was around way back then).

While we are on the subject of the "Big Four" how on earth was Venom left out of the "other" Big Four? They predated all those bands and were hugely influential. Never understood that at all...


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## NickS (Feb 11, 2018)

Might-is-Right said:


> While we are on the subject of the "Big Four" how on earth was Venom left out of the "other" Big Four? They predated all those bands and were hugely influential. Never understood that at all...



Because, both of these lists are basically American bands, as most people have mentioned. My personal list for Death Metal would definitely include Bolt Thrower at the least from Europe, but most of us are sticking to American bands as top ones, just like
with Thrash Metal.


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## arasys (Feb 12, 2018)

No one mentioned Hypocrisy?!


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## Womb raider (Feb 12, 2018)

I feel like DM is either the big 1 or 2, or 10 with no in between. Trying to whittle it to 4 is nearly impossible given it's quick upstart in the US and Overseas around the same time.
Death, Morbid Angel and then throw a couple darts at a list of about 10 other bands that could be there as well.


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## MrMcSick (Feb 13, 2018)

Morbid angel, suffocation, cannibal corpse, malevolent creation. All started in the 80s.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 13, 2018)

The four different lineups of Cannibal Corpse.


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## Rosal76 (Feb 14, 2018)

Might-is-Right said:


> While we are on the subject of the "Big Four" how on earth was Venom left out of the "other" Big Four? They predated all those bands and were hugely influential. Never understood that at all...



Same thing with Possessed. I rarely see fans mention them as a progenitor for death metal. I do see fans mention them but not as nearly as much as say, Death. IMHO, when fans/forum members put together their list of what bands should be on the big 4 for death metal bands, there's just too many prerequisite's among fans to choose from. Who came first, who did what first, who was/is more popular, who was more influential, who was more consistent, who is still active, who they like most, etc, etc, etc. Someone's dream lineup will always be disagreed upon by someone else.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 14, 2018)

Yo, so this Diecide Serpents of the Light stuff is the hotness. Is more material like this? I like the heavy thrash vibe. I mean the vocals are garbage, but that’s almost all death metal.


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## Rosal76 (Feb 14, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> Yo, so this Diecide Serpents of the Light stuff is the hotness. Is more material like this? I like the heavy thrash vibe.




If you like their thrash riffs, you might want to check out these songs from them:

Kill the Christian from the album, Once upon the cross. Second riff in the beginning.



Suffer again from the album, Insineratehymn.



Empowered by blasphemy from the album, To hell with God.



They have a lot more thrash riffs scattered throughout their discography but these are a few of my favorites that come to mind.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 14, 2018)

Yeah that one album SOL is going on my Spotify.


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## Esp Griffyn (Feb 14, 2018)

NickS said:


> I only just realized after @KailM post that you said "with" That don't make no sense??



Doh. This is what happens when you're in a rush. CC are the godfathers for me.


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## Viginez (Feb 14, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> I mean the vocals are garbage


you are in tampa. just go say it in glens face and report back pls...


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## Mathemagician (Feb 14, 2018)

All I can think of is the Office. 

“I. Declare. Death metal vocals aren’t catchy!”


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## wat (Feb 14, 2018)

Killswitch Engage
As I Lay Dying
5 Finger Death Punch
Devildriver






























lol ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


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## KailM (Feb 15, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Doh. This is what happens when you're in a rush. CC are the godfathers for me.



Haha, I figured as much -- but felt it necessary to call you out just in case you really meant what you said. 

There are people out there that would say CC doesn't belong in a list of top death metal bands/influencers. I chalk it up to CC being arguably the most commercially successful extreme metal act of all time. But not once have they compromised on delivering pure, dark, brutality. For some reason, some people can't accept a band once it has achieved any sort of popularity...I tend to greatly dislike those people.


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## Brutal08 (Feb 15, 2018)

Suffocation
Deicide
Dying Fetus
Cannibal Corpse

Cryptopsy not far behind


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