# The Social Dilema



## tedtan (Sep 25, 2020)

This could go in another subforum, but it shows the huge impact social media has on our current political climate, so I’m posting it here. And while it may not be revolutionary info for many of us, it shows how and why social media is dividing us into tribal groups and how that is impacting our current politics.

The Social Dilemma


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## MFB (Sep 26, 2020)

I quit Facebook going on 3 years ago this New Years, and while I know I'm at my best, I've legitimately lost contact with everyone I used to talk to and it showed how thin friendships got through the ability to just digitally check in and not need to actually catch up with anyone about their life.

It has it's pros and cons


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## USMarine75 (Sep 26, 2020)

Watched it this AM. The early investor of FB (forget his name) has been on shows like Bill Maher before sounding the alarm but of course we love our screentime too much.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 26, 2020)

people are dumb as bricks. and they're always being controlled be whatever media, demogue, bible or whatever is around. 

nothing new.


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## shadowlife (Sep 26, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> people are dumb as bricks. and they're always being controlled be whatever media, demogue, bible or whatever is around.
> 
> nothing new.



While I agree with your basic point, bibles, newspapers, televisions and radios of the past did not have the ability to "track" everything you read, watched, listened to, etc.

Current technology can be and is used in much more nefarious ways than any of the "media" of the past.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 26, 2020)

shadowlife said:


> While I agree with your basic point, bibles, newspapers, televisions and radios of the past did not have the ability to "track" everything you read, watched, listened to, etc.
> 
> Current technology can be and is used in much more nefarious ways than any of the "media" of the past.



I mean maybe? but the end result is all the same. love this. hate that. don't fuck this thing. go to war. like what more insidious thing could possibly happen.


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## sleewell (Sep 26, 2020)

You, what do you own the world? How do you own disorder, disorder?
Now, somewhere between the sacred silence, sacred silence and sleep
Somewhere between the sacred silence and sleep
Disorder, disorder, disorder

More wood for their fires, loud neighbors
Flashlight reveries caught in the headlights of a truck
Eating seeds as a pastime activity
The toxicity of our city, of our city


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## TedEH (Sep 26, 2020)

I watched it, 'cause why not. While I don't disagree with general premise of the film, I think it's very..... exaggerated? A bit of a stretch at times? Kinda fear-monger-y for the sake of drama? I mean, it's a netflix documentary, so it's what I expected.

My entirely unprofessional opinion is that most people don't quite understand what it means to say "technology is tracking them", or what really happens with their personal data, or what that personal data even is. I mean, so many people are so tech illiterate that a movie like this is going to give them entirely the wrong idea. It's very unlikely that the average person is being literally "spied on" as if all the big companies care what you had for breakfast or what you're doing right now. The dramatization of the guy being quite literally manipulated by the digital dudes carefully timing out when to send him very personal messages so that they can control him..... no, that's not how this works.

Don't get me wrong, there are serious things to be concerned about when it comes to the internet, to the socials, to how data is used, to whether or not people are aware of what data is being stored about them, etc. But I think the dramatizations and metaphors are likely to be taken literally and lead people to understand even less about how this stuff works. Makes for a great movie, sure, but this does nothing for informing people about how their devices or the internet work.


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## Kobalt (Sep 26, 2020)

When this subject rises, I always have this question in my head... what the fuck do you have to hide?

Your taste in music? Clothing? Food? Video games? Movies? The car you drive?!!

Nothing. Unless you’re a shady piece of shit who runs fraud, blackmails women into sending nudes or into having sex with you, or do any pedophilic activity online, why the fuck does it even matter if you’re data is tracked.. oooh, big deal you like ice cream, too bad Facebook’s gonna run an ad that DQ’s running a promo 2 for 1 on Blizzards. I DON’T WANT MY PRIVACY INVADED LIKE THIS!!!


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## Adieu (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> When this subject rises, I always have this question in my head... what the fuck do you have to hide?
> 
> Your taste in music? Clothing? Food? Video games? Movies? The car you drive?!!
> 
> Nothing. Unless you’re a shady piece of shit who runs fraud, blackmails women into sending nudes or into having sex with you, or do any pedophilic activity online, why the fuck does it even matter if you’re data is tracked.. oooh, big deal you like ice cream, too bad Facebook’s gonna run an ad that DQ’s running a promo 2 for 1 on Blizzards. I DON’T WANT MY PRIVACY INVADED LIKE THIS!!!



Example 1: You're a fat guy on a diet who sleeptalks about yummy cheeseburgers

Outcome: the algorithm will try pretty dang hard to scuttle your diet and will keep you obese


Example 2: You're a borderline alcoholic.

Outcome: ....guess what, alcohol advertising is still legal on Youtube. Enjoy being taunted by beer all the time.


Example 3: you watched a few subtitled Chinese martial arts epics.

Outcome: dumb as rocks Youtube can't tell you don't speak a word of Chinese, and keeps sending you global chinese ads and even LOCAL southern california businesses' ads....IN CHINESE.
Your brain exlodes and the local Chinese realtor just wasted good money for that.


Example 4: you have so-so credit, regularly get in debt, but pay it back eventually every time. With lots of penalties. You also have shopaholic tendencies.

Outcome: these days, Amazon can be not just your retailer, your supplier, and your totally snoopy advertiser.... they're also likely your banker (Chase Amazon Visa, 5% cashback, anyone?). And they KNOW all your vices.


...what DO you have to hide?


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2020)

MFB said:


> I quit Facebook going on 3 years ago this New Years, and while I know I'm at my best, I've legitimately lost contact with everyone I used to talk to and it showed how thin friendships got through the ability to just digitally check in and not need to actually catch up with anyone about their life.
> 
> It has it's pros and cons



I dropped Facebook about 9 years ago and experienced the same thing, but it helped me take stock of who my real friends were and it removed a TON of stress/drama from my life. After things settled, I got into talking to those people via text, email, etc and I think we actually have a much more substantive relationship than we did just 'liking' and 'commenting' eachothers nonsense on Facebook.

My actual relationships and interactions with people are way way deeper than they were living on social media, hands down. I've got some people in my life (mostly family and in-laws) that still live on social media and I'm amazed at how petty the things are they spend their days talking about.

That said, I'm ready to move beyond the 'Social Dilemma' and into the 'Netflix Dilemma', which I define as whatever cheap reality thing Netflix greenlights instantly meming it's way into our lives. Remember when everyone was talking about that Asian woman that organizes shit? Do we really care about any of this stuff?


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## USMarine75 (Sep 27, 2020)

Randy said:


> Remember when everyone was talking about that Asian woman that organizes shit? Do we really care about any of this stuff?



Only if it brings you joy.


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 27, 2020)

Randy said:


> That said, I'm ready to move beyond the 'Social Dilemma' and into the 'Netflix Dilemma', which I define as whatever cheap reality thing Netflix greenlights instantly meming it's way into our lives. Remember when everyone was talking about that Asian woman that organizes shit? Do we really care about any of this stuff?



I was thinking what was their end goal. It’s users their drop social media usage to watch Netflix more? Less scrolling on smart phones means more Netflix time?

I deleted the FB app from my phone cause it’s nothing but Covid & Trump posts lately, i found my self constantly unfollowing so many people and pages. I don’t miss it at all. The guitar group stuff was getting way to repetitive with the same posts everyday and never has the depth of a forum like this. 

I don’t really care about tracking since they do such a bad job at it. I’ve gambled twice in my life I think but 90% of ads across the Internet for me is gambling and stocks. How about targeting me with things I actually like and do from my search results.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 27, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Example 1: You're a fat guy on a diet who sleeptalks about yummy cheeseburgers
> 
> Outcome: the algorithm will try pretty dang hard to scuttle your diet and will keep you obese
> 
> ...



my facebook ads are all for japanese and Ukrainian dating services. 

i only use facebook to post pictures of my kids.

so either it's working super well....

actually it's probably working super well.


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## Kobalt (Sep 27, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Example 1: You're a fat guy on a diet who sleeptalks about yummy cheeseburgers
> 
> Outcome: the algorithm will try pretty dang hard to scuttle your diet and will keep you obese
> 
> ...


You are blaming someone’s disease on advertisement? Sorry but, if you have a problem, you should blame yourself, not the world for making those things available to you (and others who enjoy them in healthy ways). Just saying...


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> You are blaming someone’s disease on advertisement? Sorry but, if you have a problem, you should blame yourself, not the world for making those things available to you (and others who enjoy them in healthy ways). Just saying...



That's not at all what he said. Lmfao

He made the point that advertisers knowing your demons helps them exploit you, basically. You have no way out of opting out of booze commercials as a recovering alcoholic, as an example. And if you're a recovering alcoholic, you've likely googled a lot about alcohol, so Google will be more likely to push booze on you. Ads don't create the disease, but they can be a nuisance to those trying to better themselves with no way of opting out. One could argue it could be done on purpose to keep someone on the hook of addiction.

It's like blowing smoke in the face of someone with lung cancer who's going through chemo.

Nothing wrong with ads, but there are ways to exploit social media and non-personal data, which was really the only point it seemed he was making.


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## InHiding (Sep 27, 2020)

I do not have the time to watch that now, but here's this:


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## Adieu (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> You are blaming someone’s disease on advertisement? Sorry but, if you have a problem, you should blame yourself, not the world for making those things available to you (and others who enjoy them in healthy ways). Just saying...



Sorry man, I'm slim ripped and sober.... the Mandarin Chinese ads thing, however, IS driving me nuts.

And some of the other ads I caught some algorithmic false positives for are predatory as fuck (conservative propaganda bullshit masquerading as public information, guilt free binge low fat ice cream for fat chicks, literally 4x overpriced leases from Uber for young black men with no credit, etc.)


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## Kobalt (Sep 27, 2020)

Chokey Chicken said:


> That's not at all what he said. Lmfao
> 
> He made the point that advertisers knowing your demons helps them exploit you, basically. You have no way out of opting out of booze commercials as a recovering alcoholic, as an example. And if you're a recovering alcoholic, you've likely googled a lot about alcohol, so Google will be more likely to push booze on you. Ads don't create the disease, but they can be a nuisance to those trying to better themselves with no way of opting out. One could argue it could be done on purpose to keep someone on the hook of addiction.
> 
> ...


That’s what I understood, maybe I expressed myself wrong.

You guys are putting the blame on the advertisement for making an alcoholic relapse. No, the blame is on the alcoholic for letting himself use it as an excuse.

It’s the same debate about guns. I’m Canadian, I think guns are stupid and shouldn’t be in civilian hands, but I’m rational enough to say that “guns don’t kill people, idiots with guns kill people”. If people are allowed to own guns for their own safety, don’t put the blame on guns for the percentage of idiots that use them wrong.

Advertisement is to sell products and services, not make a diabetic or alcoholic deteriorate their own condition, or whatever the case may be. It’s called self-control, it’s something you learn by yourself, no one will teach it to you.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 27, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Sorry man, I'm slim ripped and sober.... the Mandarin Chinese ads thing, however, IS driving me nuts.
> 
> And some of the other ads I caught some algorithmic false positives for are predatory as fuck (conservative propaganda bullshit masquerading as public information, guilt free binge low fat ice cream for fat chicks, literally 4x overpriced leases from Uber for young black men with no credit, etc.)



man you see some wacky shit.

90 percent of my ads are for grammarly. which given how I type. fair.


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## Adieu (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> That’s what I understood, maybe I expressed myself wrong.
> 
> You guys are putting the blame on the advertisement for making an alcoholic relapse. No, the blame is on the alcoholic for letting himself use it as an excuse.
> 
> ...



This is more of a case of a gun dealer setting up a stand in front of the free mental health clinic....


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## Kobalt (Sep 27, 2020)

Adieu said:


> This is more of a case of a gun dealer setting up a stand in front of the free mental health clinic....


I think that’s an extreme way of thinking...


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## Seabeast2000 (Sep 27, 2020)

Social media isn't a firehose of manipulation and mental illness. It is all run by sage overseers drawing from full lives' experience and with your best interest.


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## Adieu (Sep 27, 2020)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Social media isn't a firehose of manipulation and mental illness. It is all run by sage overseers drawing from full lives' experience and with your best interest.



Yup yup the Prophet Jesus Llama, the Tooth Fairy, and the rebranded totem now known as the Easter Bunny

They all work together to send you ads, pron, and cat videos. For the betterment of mankind~!


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## Hollowway (Sep 27, 2020)

For me, the sucky thing is the algorithms aren't yet sophisticated enough to be hugely useful, but at the same time they're useful enough to be annoying. One of the nice things about generic ads is you might learn a thing or two, as you don't already know about that product/service. And super useful algorithms would be able to know I want to buy a Fryette D60, and find one for me to buy. Instead, I'm getting ads for crap I don't want, but is in the same genre as things I am interested in.

I AM nervous about how much tracking these things do in general, and what use it would be for our government to have it. Not to devolve this into a political discussion, but if our country keeps going the way it is, with fascist and totalitarian overtones, then I worry about things like 23 and me, FB, etc. having so much of my life in there.


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## TedEH (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> You guys are putting the blame on the advertisement for making an alcoholic relapse.


It's not about blame, it's about the technology having no sense of boundaries. If you had an alcoholic friend, you might avoid drinking beer in their presence. It's not _your fault_ that they have a drinking problem, but you'd be a bit of an ass to flaunt your freedom to drink in front of them, and you'd be a bit responsible if that behaviour prompted them to relapse. The ads are the same idea, except that they have no real oversight, understanding, sense or morals, etc behind their uses of what it gleans from your usage patterns.

The priority is to create value for advertisers - without any mechanism to measure the real-world impact on what happens when you parrot people's online behaviour back at them. Maybe it enriches some people's lives. Maybe it bombards people with things that they aren't prepared for.

You're right, there's some level of individual responsibility involved - _but _- there's also zero moral consideration behind the use of people's data where there should be. Both of those things can be true at the same time.



Lorcan Ward said:


> I deleted the FB app from my phone cause it’s nothing but Covid & Trump posts lately, i found my self constantly unfollowing so many people and pages. I don’t miss it at all.


I deleted the fb app from my phone, for a lot of the same reasons, a few months ago. While I don't miss it in a day-to-day sense, I've noticed that I'm sort of out of the loop with some of what's going on now. I find myself hearing things from the people I talk to regularly and going "oh, I had no idea that x thing happened weeks ago".


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## c7spheres (Sep 27, 2020)

MFB said:


> I quit Facebook going on 3 years ago this New Years, and while I know I'm at my best, I've legitimately lost contact with everyone I used to talk to and it showed how thin friendships got through the ability to just digitally check in and not need to actually catch up with anyone about their life.
> 
> It has it's pros and cons



It's so true. People that actually care about you will think to themseleves "Hey, what happened to so and so? I think I'll call or go to their house and check on them because I actually value their existance as a human being and care about them. I genuinely care about how they're doing." 
- 
- This site's format is light years better than Facebook's. In fact I'd call it as ideal as possible for how to organize a social media website. 

- The time of B.C. was so much better (before cellular, before computers) back then freindships were more genuine and even enemys got along and showed more respect to each other, imo. People nowadays (not all people) are programmed clone-drones. Very few innovators and a lot of immitators. And lot's of whining babies. 

- If I was rich I wouldn't be a dick, but with one exception. I'd go around just slapping people's phones out of their hands. The people that can't get the hell off or out of them. Why ever go anywhere if you never put your phone away? Maybe I'll start doing it anyways. What are they gonna do? This should be a new movement. Screw burning everyone's buildings down, just start destrying everyone's phone!

- End of rant.


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## TedEH (Sep 27, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> "Hey, what happened to so and so? I think I'll call or go to their house and check on them because I actually value their existance as a human being and care about them. I genuinely care about how they're doing."


I had someone accuse me of stopping my use of facebook because I was "mad at them".

.....? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Kobalt (Sep 27, 2020)

TedEH said:


> It's not about blame, it's about the technology having no sense of boundaries. If you had an alcoholic friend, you might avoid drinking beer in their presence. It's not _your fault_ that they have a drinking problem, but you'd be a bit of an ass to flaunt your freedom to drink in front of them, and you'd be a bit responsible if that behaviour prompted them to relapse. The ads are the same idea, except that they have no real oversight, understanding, sense or morals, etc behind their uses of what it gleans from your usage


Hmmm I wonder... Would I also be a bit of an ass if I turned on the TV on the sports channel?

I wonder how a recovering alcoholic fares trying to enjoy a hockey game, or a NASCAR race...


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## StevenC (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> Hmmm I wonder... Would I also be a bit of an ass if I turned on the TV on the sports channel?
> 
> I wonder how a recovering alcoholic fares trying to enjoy a hockey game, or a NASCAR race...


You're doing this on purpose right?

How can it not be blindingly obvious the point is about control?


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## Kobalt (Sep 27, 2020)

StevenC said:


> You're doing this on purpose right?
> 
> How can it not be blindingly obvious the point is about control?


I understand the point man, I’m just saying it’s grossly exaggerated.


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## narad (Sep 27, 2020)

TedEH said:


> It's not about blame, it's about the technology having no sense of boundaries. If you had an alcoholic friend, you might avoid drinking beer in their presence. It's not _your fault_ that they have a drinking problem, but you'd be a bit of an ass to flaunt your freedom to drink in front of them, and you'd be a bit responsible if that behaviour prompted them to relapse. The ads are the same idea, except that they have no real oversight, understanding, sense or morals, etc behind their uses of what it gleans from your usage patterns.



So what would you say about Facebook's ability to turn off alcohol advertisement?


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## TedEH (Sep 27, 2020)

narad said:


> So what would you say about Facebook's ability to turn off alcohol advertisement?


I didn't know that was an option, but if it is, then that's good. Why would I have any problem with that? Facebook is not the only ad provider though. I think the biggest one is Google. Does google have that option?

That's still all of one option to help one group of people on one website. People don't generally have that much control over the ads they see (or why), outside of just controlling their behaviour online. There are more kinds of addicts than alcoholics. There are other things that can be harmful for people to see frequently on the internet.

A good one is YouTube recommendations. It's great at making loose associations and sending people down rabbits holes that can pretty drastically influence people. I don't think it's any secret that this is intentional.

Has anyone studied anything about the effects of parroting people's online behaviour back to them as ads? Legit question.


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## TedEH (Sep 27, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> Would I also be a bit of an ass if I turned on the TV on the sports channel?


If you did it knowingly, at their house, with the intent to flaunt beer brands in front of them, then yes. This isn't rocket science.


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## c7spheres (Sep 27, 2020)

What's crazy to me is ad's apparently actually work on people. I don't think I've ever watched any ad and it actually made me want to buy something. Usually it's word of mouth or forums like this that make me want stuff, not the company or ad's themselves. I always try to research and make a good decision before buying anything. I've never seen a Taco Bell commercial and suddenly wanted Taco Bell and when I saw Suzanne Summers doing the Thigh Master commercial I didn't want a Thigh Master, I wanted her thighs, but those weren't for sale


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## Adieu (Sep 27, 2020)

StevenC said:


> You're doing this on purpose right?
> 
> How can it not be blindingly obvious the point is about control?



Maybe there IS no Kobalt

Maybe it's an automated point defense bot from Amazon


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## narad (Sep 27, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I didn't know that was an option, but if it is, then that's good. Why would I have any problem with that? Facebook is not the only ad provider though. I think the biggest one is Google. Does google have that option?



No, but there are still restrictions on alcohol ads, such that they don't show up with terms/sites related to alcohol abuse recovery, or underage people, or any scenario that would violate local laws. There are similar policies in place for the other types of behavior.

So Google doesn't know you are a recovering alcoholic, and maybe you can be one and still wind up seeing an advertisement. But Google knows that you're visiting alcoholics anonymous, and in that instance, does not show alcohol-related ads. Or Google knows that you are 12, and does not show you those ads.

This is of course a far cry of companies "knowing" that you are prone to some bad behavior you're trying to stop, and targetting you specifically, which is basically the premise of a few posters in this thread.


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## Adieu (Sep 27, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> What's crazy to me is ad's apparently actually work on people. I don't think I've ever watched any ad and it actually made me want to buy something. Usually it's word of mouth or forums like this that make me want stuff, not the company or ad's themselves. I always try to research and make a good decision before buying anything. I've never seen a Taco Bell commercial and suddenly wanted Taco Bell and when I saw Suzanne Summers doing the Thigh Master commercial I didn't want a Thigh Master, I wanted her thighs, but those weren't for sale



Have you ever bought anything Marshall, Fender, Gibson, or ESP?

Is your credit card REALLY just some rando card from the closest brick and mortar bank, and not something that gives you 5% back either on gas, cotsco, or amazon??


And what, you've never watched a youtube video???


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 28, 2020)

Kobalt said:


> You are blaming someone’s disease on advertisement? Sorry but, if you have a problem, you should blame yourself, not the world for making those things available to you (and others who enjoy them in healthy ways). Just saying...




IKR? And what about those poor tobacco companies, they’re going to have to stop bikini models giving away Cancer sticks to poor Asian kids pretty soon, and selling cigarettes altogether!

They’ve already suffered far too much having to change their ad claims that cigarettes are so good for your health! Doesn’t anyone have a (diseased) heart?

...omg what an affront to Capitalist Virtue...
Poor corporations... 


Interestingly, I’m reading a lot of victim blaming here. Where did anyone get the idea that it’s an addicts fault for being an addict?

That idea was implanted in your brain, by an advertiser.

Medical sciences show that addiction is a disease- it’s not a choice.

Some countries in the world treat homeless addicts like this:

Give them free housing and work, and pay them with beer. Or free needle exchanges and ibogaine treatment to treat and cure addiction.

Certainly a much better idea than locking up junkies ODing on Heroin in a cell with 20 other dudes, some of whom aren’t even criminals but are victims of racial bias, and detoxing naked in a cold shower for 12+ hours...

Or creating a society of opioid addicts by illegally prescribing them! Should we blame the people who went in with a minor injury and ended up ruining their lives because they were supposed to know better? 

These opioid drugs are so addictive that anyone becomes an addict- doesn’t even matter if you fit the profile!


Rights to privacy are a fundamental right of this Democracy, the legality of which is only relevant when they’re being denied! We are all innocent until proven guilty. ( I find it interesting that proponents of 2nd amendment rights seem oddly fixated on that while forgetting the others.) 

The internet has given far too many people the idea that their opinions have any real merit, which also gives them the chutzpah to share their opinions, without actually taking the time to properly form them. I know I do this all the time. I also know when to step back, read, listen and learn. 

It’s all about the feelz right ?


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 28, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Have you ever bought anything Marshall, Fender, Gibson, or ESP?
> 
> Is your credit card REALLY just some rando card from the closest brick and mortar bank, and not something that gives you 5% back either on gas, cotsco, or amazon??
> 
> ...



I actually enjoy Gibson TV quite a bit. That dude with the Les Paul pool... come on man!

(I think he was bribed by Gibson lawyers to do the episode or he was going to be sued!)

I also get a healthy dose of outrage and gratitude, every time I hear a Neil Young tune or some music with a message used to sell some huge corporate product- I’m like yes!

Anger and outrage, conveniently placed as to pacify my need for action, or independent thought...

After all what would any of us do with all
the free space in our heads where there were no Ad Icons?


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## narad (Sep 28, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> Medical sciences show that addiction is a disease- it’s not a choice.



That's not really accurate and not really meaningful. You might have a brain that's prone to addictive behavior. You might have a brain +/- a standard deviation in IQ. You might have a brain that fills with rage easily, or a brain that led you to rape a child, or you might have a brain that likes to be lazy. Calling things diseases just because they're the reality of your predispositions marginalizes free will. 

You're in charge. Seeing a picture of a beer and not going into a drunken bender is just part of living in the world.


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 28, 2020)

narad said:


> That's not really accurate and not really meaningful. You might have a brain that's prone to addictive behavior. You might have a brain +/- a standard deviation in IQ. You might have a brain that fills with rage easily, or a brain that led you to rape a child, or you might have a brain that likes to be lazy. Calling things diseases just because they're the reality of your predispositions marginalizes free will.
> 
> You're in charge. Seeing a picture of a beer and not going into a drunken bender is just part of living in the world.



Boo


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 28, 2020)

My ex from France once told me something- she said “addiction” is romanticized. It means you love something so much you can’t get enough... which was a very convenient point of view when we were young lovers!

Until I found out she hadn’t actually broken up with her boyfriend, despite what she’d said to the contrary. That took some deft negotiations before it came to blows... whew!

What if everyone is addicted to cell phones and the dopamine and stress hormone response between likes and arguements? Can you put your phone away for a month? A week? A day?*

The brain decays if you don’t use it. Parts of the brain are being destroyed since the advent of digital age. Some of this is by design, and what’s being put in there and by whom? 

It’s clearly not just consumption and convenience anymore. It’s gone far beyond the free exchange of ideas. 

Everything is being monetized, including your thoughts. People have said “so what, I’m not doing anything wrong.” 

I disagree- *we should be charging these fuckers rent for occupying our minds!


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## TedEH (Sep 28, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> she said “addiction” is romanticized. It means you love something so much you can’t get enough


I can't tell if you're being facetious or just don't know what "romanticized" means. It doesn't mean "addicted". It means making something appear to be cool or desirable, with the implication that the seriousness is therefor downplayed.



Wuuthrad said:


> The brain decays if you don’t use it.





Wuuthrad said:


> Parts of the brain are being destroyed since the advent of digital age.





Wuuthrad said:


> Some of this is by design


Since you brought "medical science" into it, I'm gonna call [citation needed].


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## gunch (Sep 28, 2020)

I haven’t consumed media (shows, tv, cartoons, movies, etc) in 10 years and I owe it all to at first Tumblr and now Twitter. My brain is so fucked up and ADHD riddled I can’t waste time correctly 

I can barely scrape enough attention together for video games


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## Randy (Sep 28, 2020)

gunch said:


> I haven’t consumed media (...*cartoons*...) in 10 years



Bruh, when you can't enjoy cartoons, it's time for an intervention.


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## tedtan (Sep 28, 2020)

I started this thread to open up some discussion around the topic of social media and its influence on people in modern times, but got busy this weekend and didn't have an opportunity to be part of the discussion, so its interesting to see where the discussion has gone in my absence. I am surprised that the discussion has centered around targeted ads, though, as the ills of social media extend far beyond that. Since I am back now, I'll mention a few things I think are important takeaways from the documentary.

First, we need to understand that social media is designed to be addictive (this is what the companies refer to as "driving engagement"), and this isn't something that only affects those with a predisposition towards addiction, either. The various social media companies pretty much all have founders and other key players who have studied how to make their platforms addictive (and I'd say even manipulative) under psychologist BJ Fogg at Stanford University's Persuasive Technology Lab. Why do they want you addicted to their platform? Simple - these companies sell ads and the more time you spend on their platform, the more ads they can sell.

But the effects of that addiction go beyond ads. When you're using the platform, you get your dopamine hit, but when you're not using it, you become anxious about missing out on something or not being connected. Plus you lose the dopamine hits you've become accustomed to. So you are hurting yourself merely by using the platform.

Second, we've seen the effects that social media has had on children, and its not pretty. From becoming more risk averse and socially awkward, to cyber bullying, depression and an almost 300% increase in teen suicides and attempted suicides. Teens and pre-teens are not equipped to handle the shit posts and other negative aspects of social media.

Third, these platforms have brought about a means for conspiracy theory BS to take on a form of legitimacy with a number of people. From Pizza Gate and the flat earthers, to white supremacists and their "Civil War 2: The Electric Boogaloo", all this BS is fueled by social media.

Fourth, the technology that is available to businesses for advertising purposes is also available to governments and fringe groups to use for their purposes. I mentioned the white supremacists previously, but we've seen Russia use social media to interfere in US elections and anti-Rohingya Muslim hate speech on FaceBook helped the Myanmar government wipe out he Rohingya population in what the UN stated was "a textbook example of ethnic cleansing".

Fifth, let's mention those targeted ads. Each of these sites collects data on you and your usage of their platform (and others). In and of itself, this isn't a huge thing, but taken into modern times, what happens if Trump decides not to leave the White House after his last term is up, gets his hands on this information to determine who his supporters are and who his detractors are and then turns it over to the CIA and military psychological operations to weaponize against his detractors? Or, more likely, turns it over to the white supremacists to help them kick off their Electric Boogaloo.

Last, I thought it was telling that the people who developed these apps 1) don't allow their children to use them, and 2) have deleted most, if not all, social media apps from their own phones.


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 28, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I can't tell if you're being facetious or just don't know what "romanticized" means. It doesn't mean "addicted". It means making something appear to be cool or desirable, with the implication that the seriousness is therefor downplayed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do I really have to explain “joy de vivre” and “ooh la la” ...? 

Je nais ce quoi! If you have to ask, you’ll never know...

I pity the person who’s never had a French lover, I really do!

Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien!

« Its better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven’t done »

And btw, if you see your Mom this weekend, be sure and tell her:

SATAN!!!


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 28, 2020)

narad said:


> That's not really accurate and not really meaningful. You might have a brain that's prone to addictive behavior. You might have a brain +/- a standard deviation in IQ. You might have a brain that fills with rage easily, or a brain that led you to rape a child, or you might have a brain that likes to be lazy. Calling things diseases just because they're the reality of your predispositions marginalizes free will.
> 
> You're in charge. Seeing a picture of a beer and not going into a drunken bender is just part of living in the world.



« Free Will is an illusion, an ego induced massage of first the first layer of (self)
« consciousness » the « onion skin. »

Peel back the layers- you will find nothing more than layers and layers of implants.

Whose putting what where?

Your true self is not what it appears, and not at all what your onion skin thinks of itself. »

-thus spoke the Monkey


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## MFB (Sep 28, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> Do I really have to explain “joy de vivre” and “ooh la la” ...?
> 
> Je nais ce quoi! If you have to ask, you’ll never know...
> 
> ...





Wuuthrad said:


> « Free Will is an illusion, an ego induced massage of first the first layer of (self)
> « consciousness » the « onion skin. »
> 
> Peel back the layers- you will find nothing more than layers and layers of implants.
> ...



The fuck does any of this translate to?


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## TedEH (Sep 28, 2020)

I mean, I understand a fair amount of French and that made no sense to me.

I blame:


Wuuthrad said:


> SATAN!!!


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 29, 2020)

You could of done this yourself, in a far less amount of time since I’ve posted.

But first I’m genuinely curious: Is being a pithy ignoramus a sign of the times, something you’re born with or just your own free will?

But since it’s for the greater good, and not since you asked, because you didn’t, you just said “I need...”

To which I would normally say watch your mouth young man (I presume,) go live a life and learn a thing or two before you spout nonsensical demands about what other people are suppose to do for you, especially when it takes only average intelligence, at best, to do it yourself!

Furthermore, although I do appreciate being compared to the vast tome of knowledge and wealth of information that my immense verbiage portrays so eloquently and effortlessly, namely Google, albeit without such dubious intents and motivations, what has prevented you from doing your own research?

Are you merely abusing or addicted to the dopamine rush of “proving a point” “pointing fingers” or saying “you’re wrong?”

Whether or not that is true or not, and whether or not I give a damn, which is not information I freely give, it certainly is a large part of this global problem of the internet...

So with out further ***** ******* :

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-addiction-a-brain-disease-201603119260

https://www.drugabuse.gov/drug-topics/addiction-science


And as a relative comparison based on the profile of one POTUS:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321839#When-the-brain-is-not-equipped-for-empathy

https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-e...opaths-brains-differences-structure-function/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/psychopathy


I’ve asked this before but no one can give me an answer:

I can’t understand why Canadians are so wound up about US issues- politics, medicine, science. Don’t you have your own issues?

Or is it just little brother syndrome?


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## narad (Sep 29, 2020)

Damn, this is like that scene from the Matrix III with the old guy in the room with all the TVs.


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 29, 2020)

narad said:


> Damn, this is like that scene from the Matrix III with the old guy in the room with all the TVs.



Please Don’t make me Google...again! Noooooooo......!!!!!


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## Xaios (Sep 29, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> I can’t understand why Canadians are so wound up about US issues- politics, medicine, science. Don’t you have your own issues?


It's almost as if, owing to the realities of geographical proximity, political interdependence and the fact that America is a geopolitical 10-tonne gorilla with boundary issues that simply cannot be ignored no matter how much one might want to, American issues have a tendency to have far-reaching effects that bleed over the border, thus ultimately making many of them Canadian issues as well.


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## TedEH (Sep 29, 2020)

I still don't think you understand what "romanticized" means. And none of those links have anything to do with technology supposedly eroding our brains.



Wuuthrad said:


> I can’t understand why Canadians are so wound up about US issues


You do know we have internet here right? We have facebook? We have twitter? We have politicians? Nothing about this thread is uniquely American at all.

Please don't go around calling people "pithy ignoramus" when you're unwilling to engage with anything that doesn't fit your understanding of the world.


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## nightflameauto (Sep 29, 2020)

narad said:


> Damn, this is like that scene from the Matrix III with the old guy in the room with all the TVs.


As a programmer, that scene pisses me off to this day. The fact the Wakowski's actually thought the kernel (computer term for the base-line code running the processors, memory management, drivers, etc) was the colonel, and so went and hired themselves a Colonel Sanders look-alike just tweaks my nipples to purple every time.

That said, social media was developed for multiple reasons, not the least of which was to keep eyeballs firmly glued to the screen. The fact that lots of people fell for it and jumped in without a second thought isn't a mistake, it's a design coming to fruition. And let's face it, most of us would dive off a cliff if someone promised there was money or a sexual favor to be found at the bottom of it. Especially if the decision was made publicly in a group.

None of us is as dumb as all of us. When 'person' becomes 'people' the collective IQ drops by half the lowest IQ in the room among the collective. Don't believe me? Watch any social media site, whether it's your straight up facebook, or something more codified like a scientific discussion site targeting a specific subject. I've watched discussions among theoretical physicists, people with PHDs, several books written, and decades of experience, melt down into a pool of abusive language and barely coherent rambling nonsense because someone disagreed with them. Most of the time those deteriorations happen because someone's thinking above their pay-grade and step into a conversation they'd have been smarter to observe than take part in, and rather than attempt to educate, the responding party decides the best course of action is to lower themselves to that level and start digging.

It's both frightening and fascinating to witness.

In the more common spaces, well, think about general intelligence levels around you. Who's the dumbest, most belligerent person you communicate with on a daily basis? If life were a discussion site, that would be your absolute pinnacle point of intellect. Anything above that is immediately swatted down by loud angry grumbling by those not bright enough to understand. And more often than not, those that are bright enough to understand are happy to toss themselves into the muck and start wallowing.

That's social media.


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## StevenC (Sep 29, 2020)

Xaios said:


> It's almost as if, owing to the realities of geographical proximity, political interdependence and the fact that America is a geopolitical 10-tonne gorilla with boundary issues that simply cannot be ignored no matter how much one might want to, American issues have a tendency to have far-reaching effects that bleed over the border, thus ultimately making many of them Canadian issues as well.


Over the border, into the water, across the ocean, pollutes far away beaches.


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## TedEH (Sep 30, 2020)

nightflameauto said:


> As a programmer, that scene pisses me off to this day. The fact the Wakowski's actually thought the kernel (computer term for the base-line code running the processors, memory management, drivers, etc) was the colonel, and so went and hired themselves a Colonel Sanders look-alike just tweaks my nipples to purple every time.


I never picked up on that, and not sure how to feel about it now that I can't unsee it. Thanks....? Sort of....?


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 30, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I still don't think you understand what "romanticized" means. And none of those links have anything to do with technology supposedly eroding our brains.
> 
> 
> You do know we have internet here right? We have facebook? We have twitter? We have politicians? Nothing about this thread is uniquely American at all.
> ...




You read stuff, I get it... but I thought that might convey a certain level of comprehension... apparently not!


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## TedEH (Sep 30, 2020)

Honestly, I've forgotten why you're trying to insult me, and stopped caring enough to scroll back up and remind myself. Feel free to take that whatever way you might 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Wuuthrad (Sep 30, 2020)

TedEh, I wasn’t even referring to you previously... you seem to take things maybe a wee bit too personally?

Anyhow, for whatever it’s worth?

My world view-

If you have not read The Singularity front to back, and the other way round, and can adequately demonstrate this through flash mob performance art, and also perhaps even more importantly understand the benefits of the medieval lifestyle, not only theoretically, but also through a modicum of practical first hand experience, then “conversing” with you (by that I mean “you” in the general sense, which I would have assumed they taught you (in the direct sense) in “school” « and btw do you even have those up there? » but hasn’t really been demonstrated with any sort of eloquence, then a “conversation” with you is nothing more than shits and giggles, and not really worth a whole lot of time or effort! But let us delight my fellow human. Shall we open our minds? 

Let us try shall we? I’ve got a bottle, and an opener...

Why should anyone see things any differently than you, as if you have some authority in Reality? Rather presumptuous. You can lead a dog...the eyes of the beholder (cell phone holder?)...walk a mile in my shoes...you wouldn’t last a minute trust me! 

The Language of Romance is not defined in a dictionary, some cross culture couture of name game blame game, this or that, what’s proper or improper, for its been demonized and chastised by this digital age feeding fear hatred and envy! 

No my friend (and I truly believe that- we are all friends underneath the layers of lies we have been told to believe to fit within someone else’s predefinitions, just gather round a campfire and tell stories, where all
shall be revealed) Romance is lived and breathed through Art, Love and Music...

There is no barrier to Romance as you’ve suggested. It is in the doing, not the knowing! 

Venture forth and find some, you might become addicted! And I would not condemn you for being an addict! I would rejoice in your ecstasy!

Live, love and laugh! Do the world a favor! Do yourself one, more importantly!

Less we sound like that disgusting human specimen tasked with who really knows what, for he himself has no real clue, as witnessed by his constant verbal admonishment of nearly everything and anything that doesn’t stroke his ego- who’s been insulting others family for addiction...and whatever else he makes up!


Or are you or anyone else like him convinced that after all...

“There is no Romance only Finance?!” 

Then we may, after all, truly be fucked...


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## TedEH (Oct 1, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> TedEh, I wasn’t even referring to you previously... you seem to take things maybe a wee bit too personally?


In fairness, the way that you post is very...... unclear sometimes. Both in what you're trying to say, and who you're trying to say it to.



Wuuthrad said:


> in “school” « and btw do you even have those up there? »


Sure, totally not pointed at me, right? Not trying to insult me right? ......?

Can we get back to the topic at hand?

Social media junk? Use of people's data? How online ads work? People quitting facebook in the hopes of de-stressing and avoiding drama?

How about "influencers"? Have we talked about that yet? 'Cause there's a whole lot to be said about the impact of practically anyone being able to stand on their own little personal internet stage and broadcast messages into the world that people actually listen to.


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## USMarine75 (Oct 11, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> TedEh, I wasn’t even referring to you previously... you seem to take things maybe a wee bit too personally?
> 
> Anyhow, for whatever it’s worth?
> 
> ...





TedEH said:


> In fairness, the way that you post is very...... unclear sometimes. Both in what you're trying to say, and who you're trying to say it to.


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## BigViolin (Oct 11, 2020)

Sadly, my medieval flash mob skills are lacking.


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## TedEH (Oct 11, 2020)

It's all HTML5 mobs now. The web moves fast.


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## Wuuthrad (Oct 11, 2020)

TedEH said:


> In fairness, the way that you post is very...... unclear sometimes. Both in what you're trying to say, and who you're trying to say it to.
> 
> 
> Sure, totally not pointed at me, right? Not trying to insult me right? ......?
> ...



Sure np! We’re not at the bar, I’ll try to remember that!

How about a “meme” instead of amateur surrealist prose ...???




I think you’re right, and to a certain degree people have replaced facts with opinion.

And being “published” makes “influencers” opinions seem to hold more merit than they’re actually worth, if they’re worth anything. I don’t really know I don’t use social media. Unless forums are social media? I guess in a way...


I’ve always tried to formulate opinion before sharing it but it’s not easy!

Overall there’s a strange lack of solid credible information being dispersed. Or it’s hard to find amidst all the nonsense! Think about Covid- I was wondering why didn’t the Feds coordinate with the Post Office to deliver info and supplies? Or local govts send out mailings or TV alerts?

I remember seeing them rounding people up and locking them up in Asia I was like holy shit this ain’t no joke! How could we as a country have failed miserably?

It seems so egregious at this point that it can’t simply be failure, it seems intentional almost. And people only finding info online, having to search for it, and from “news media” (entertainment) channels.

And I was reading that Trump doesn’t even write all his Tweets he’s got helpers?


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## nightflameauto (Oct 14, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> And I was reading that Trump doesn’t even write all his Tweets he’s got helpers?


If that's true, he should fire them.

Though that would explain the somewhat schizophrenic posting style


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## bostjan (Oct 14, 2020)

Not sure at all what most of the last 2 1/2 pages were about, but:

1. Social media is okay, but social media abuse is addictive. I don't think there is much argument left that it's not.
2. Addiction is bad. It means a person cannot stop themselves from consuming something that is hurting them.
3. Addiction is not a *choice*, but it exists due to choices a person makes, and it takes a lot of clear and difficult choices to overcome it.
4. The widespread addiction to social media abuse in much of the world today is a societal problem that needs to be addressed by society, ideally.

I do have my own social media accounts, but I don't believe I am addicted to social media. I spend 100x as much time here as I do on facebook, mainly because facebook is full of toxic people. I have an addictive personality. In my formative years, I learned that I was an alcoholic. I made the choice to let that affect my life in many ways until my friends intervened and supported me in quitting. I do realize that, if I'm not careful, I could end up splattered all over facebook causing my friends and family pain in a different way.

But, that said, I don't think that the problem itself is rooted in social media as much as it is rooted in abusive behaviour and exacerbated by social media. If you took the people who are massive jerks on social media and took them away from social media, I expect that you would find out that a significant portion of them are assholes regardless of their digital or corporeal presence. It's just that they can bully more people in less time with social media. Blaming social media for cyberbullying is like blaming butcher's knives for stabbings.

So, if the government passes legislation to limit or control social media, it's not going to really address the root of the problem.

I've seen too many folks on social media abusing others, who seem to simply be having mental health crises. 

I hate to bleed this into the gun debate, but it's the same sort of thing. People, especially in the USA, need better access to mental health care. Mental health issues in the USA are not only stigmatized, but also horrifically expensive to address. I don't think that better access to affordable and destigmatized mental health care would solve the problem, either, but, at least, it would directly address the issue at hand. Maybe addressing this issue would have ripple effects on other negative aspects of life in the USA as well...


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