# Good Student Suspended for Being a Good Student



## Iamasingularity (Jan 13, 2012)

An interesting take on a case, where a student does the right thing. Can`t say I agree with the schoolboard and the dumbasses that handled this situation:

Article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...tally-bringing-knife-to-school_n_1192791.html...

Video: 



Discussion, commence.


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## renzoip (Jan 13, 2012)

Highscools never fail to amuse me with their idiotic policies.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 13, 2012)

High school teachers just fucking piss me off. The vast majority of them are absolute fucking morons. You can tell as soon as you switch out to college/university that high school teachers just don't care about students, don't care for their job, are idiots and don't want to be there.

Not all, just most


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## AxeHappy (Jan 13, 2012)

Stupid. Just plain stupid. 

To be fair to the teachers (in general, not in this specific case) the system does handicap their ability to teach quite a bit and the restrictions placed on failing or punishing a kid are just insane.


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## groph (Jan 13, 2012)




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## Baelzebeard (Jan 14, 2012)

This perfectly illustrates why our educational system is in such a downward spiral: All of the school administrators are actually special-ed graduates.


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## Jakke (Jan 14, 2012)

While I am seriously sceptical about anything that HowTheWorldWorks and/or the Huffington Post says, this seems like a legit reporting.

And it's damn shameful
This is something you hear about on the Simpson, it's like the startup to Hot Fuzz...


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## Deadnightshade (Jan 15, 2012)

Role model behaviors like this kid's aren't praised nowadays.We rely solely in punishment,or mindless hypocritical formalism.Fear has gone a long way into defeating the virtue of honesty.


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## TheHandOfStone (Jan 15, 2012)

I actually remember thinking about this scenario back in High School, and hoping that it would never happen. My school had a zero-tolerance policy (like most do), and I always thought it was asinine. It's sad that the same people who lament society's moral decay are themselves contributing to it by punishing virtue. 

On a side note, I can't normally stand HowTheWorldWorks' videos, but he does put out a really good one once in awhile. Thanks for sharing it (though I had already seen it pop up in my subbox).


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## Stealthtastic (Jan 15, 2012)

This relates to a personal story of mine, got into a fight that I did not start, didn't even hit back, but because the school had a no tolerance policy I had to withdraw from the school.

Complete bullshit.


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## bhakan (Jan 15, 2012)

My high school has the same policy. If you have a weapon in school, you are expelled, no exceptions. The policy basically encourages students to conceal a weapon because they can't do the right thing. It's just idiotic.


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## simulclass83 (Jan 15, 2012)

Guys this is a MIDDLE school. Not a highschool. 
But yes, this is one of the stupidest cases I've seen.


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## Sicarius (Jan 15, 2012)

what the hell is the matter with you people?

The kid brought a weapon to school. It doesn't matter if he knew it or not. Turning in the weapon was responsible, but he'll suffer the consequences for breaking the law/rules. 

It doesn't matter if he's a good student or not, there are rules that should never be broken, and this is one of them.

There's nothing wrong with this punishment, 4 days ISS is nothing. He's lucky they didn't suspend or expell him.


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## ZEBOV (Jan 15, 2012)

bhakan said:


> My high school has the same policy. If you have a weapon in school, you are expelled, no exceptions. The policy basically encourages students to conceal a weapon because they can't do the right thing. It's just idiotic.



When I was in the 10th grade, I accidentally brought a fixed blade knife to school for a couple of weeks straight because on a previous weekend I used my (camouflage) school backpack to carry some survival gear when deer hunting. When I discovered the knife, I told no one about it just because I didn't want to get expelled.... again. I had already been expelled before because I always fought back when being bullied (there's no right to self defense in school). I didn't need to be expelled just because of a complete accident. I had been looking everywhere for that knife too.


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## Sicarius (Jan 15, 2012)

To answer the questions that I received from my neg-rep:

There are rules. The rules say, "No weapons of any kind on school property".

A child unwittingly breaks the rules, and turns in the knife. No harm done? Right?

Well, that child still broke a very serious rule. Now, do you treat the child equally, or do you use special treatment? Because this is a good student. Well, not every teacher knows the same students, they're not going to just let the kid go, "Thanks for not stabbing anyone, and turning this in."

No. You have to treat them the same. Like someone said, their school (mine included, and I know it's pretty much the same for other schools) is an automatic suspension/expulsion from the school. 

The fact that he was given in school suspension, shows the school was lenient with him.

It's not failed or stupid logic, it's common sense. 

And If I was in the same situation, I'd be mad, but I'd accept the punishment for coming to school with a knife. It's a fucking knife, people. Not a commemorative bat from last night's ball game. 

Think of the "What If"s. If he'd found it, and it was taken by another child and used to harm another. How fast do you think that kid will rat out the first for bringing it in the first place. Welp there's a charge for accessory to assault. But he's a good kid, so they'll let him go, right?

Right?


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## The Reverend (Jan 16, 2012)

Where does punishing good deeds meet the criteria of common sense?

For that matter, since we're bandying about hypothetical situations, what's to stop kids from planting shit on other kids? If you can't come forward about it due to fear of punishment, you're forcing a kid to make a conscious bad decision because it's actually more rewarding.

Also, I went to a big high school, and if you think principals and school cops don't know who's a bad kid, you didn't get in trouble enough. 

There's no inherent morality to rules in the first place. If the kid broke the rules, they should've rewrote those bitches to say "extenuating circumstances will be considered at the school's discretion," instead of fucking the kid over for something so lame. What a great message to send: Look, kids, if you see something wrong, or feel that you may need to go to an adult about something, keep you mouth closed, because you're liable to be suspended or expelled.

Lastly, Sicarius, I don't know about Conroe ISD, but in Tomball, ISS wasn't far removed from juvenile detention centers I've been too.


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## Waelstrum (Jan 16, 2012)

This reminds my of when arseholes sue people who break their ribs doing CPR on them. Normally breaking ribs is bad, but there are some circumstances when it is ok.

Sicarius, if you like your hypotheticals, how would you punish a kid who manages to snatch a knife away from an aggressor in order to prevent injury to themselves and others? Or if a kid notices a knife just lying around and hands it in? (In that hypothetical I guess it could be argued that the kid should report where the knife is and leave it there, where anyone could pick it up.)


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

Not every school's ISS program is the same. Mine was nothing like a Juvie system when I was in middle school. It was just a room with the kids all together at separate desks doing their class work.

Then again I wasn't a big enough delinquent to be sent to Juvie, so maybe that's what Juvie is. I doubt it, highly, but whatever. 

He broke a rule, and is going with the consequences. It's as simple as that. 

In this kind of a circumstance, what he did was right (to turn it in), and he's going to go through with the consequences of bringing a knife to school.

It's like it is in real life. You are responsible for what is in your possession, be it unwitting or not. 

As an example: Just because you didn't know an illegal substance or a gun was in your car or bag, doesn't make you any more innocent just because you weren't aware of it. It's up to you to make sure you don't have those things.

Ignorance of the law, or of unlawful items in your possession does not exempt you from the consequences of breaking that law (law as an interchangeable here for rules).

It's that simple.

If he'd brought a gun to school on accident, would you all be saying the exact same thing?


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> This reminds my of when arseholes sue people who break their ribs doing CPR on them. Normally breaking ribs is bad, but there are some circumstances when it is ok.
> 
> Sicarius, if you like your hypotheticals, how would you punish a kid who manages to snatch a knife away from an aggressor in order to prevent injury to themselves and others? Or if a kid notices a knife just lying around and hands it in? (In that hypothetical I guess it could be argued that the kid should report where the knife is and leave it there, where anyone could pick it up.)



It's all about perception. Did a teacher witness the child taking it away to try to protect other students? Or did they walk up to the incident and saw just saw them with it?

Does it matter what the actual facts are, or what the kids will say happened (be it a lie, to protect themselves from punishment, or the bully who had the weapon in the first place, or the truth)?

In the second case, I'd keep an eye on it, and tell someone to get a teacher, and let them handle it. I'm not touching it to incriminate myself, but I'm not going to leave it unattended. 

Granted this is coming from a 25 year old adult, who's had enough life experiences to know what to do. So take it with a grain of salt if need be.

See, the main problem with the 2nd hypothetical is that this isn't something that was just found laying around that could have been anyone's. It was in this child's possession, and he turned it in. 

He isn't being punished for good behaviour (turning in the knife) He's being punished for bad (bringing a knife to school).


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## Empryrean (Jan 16, 2012)

That's just straight wrong. I understand that there is a system to heed to, but god dammit we're human aren't we? Show some compassion.


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## jaretthale78 (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm sure glad they caught him.


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## Waelstrum (Jan 16, 2012)

So what he should have done is leave it somewhere, and report that he found it?




Sicarius said:


> It's like it is in real life. You are responsible for what is in your possession, be it unwitting or not.
> 
> As an example: Just because you didn't know an illegal substance or a gun was in your car or bag, doesn't make you any more innocent just because you weren't aware of it. It's up to you to make sure you don't have those things.
> 
> Ignorance of the law, or of unlawful items in your possession does not exempt you from the consequences of breaking that law (law as an interchangeable here for rules).



In the original scenario the knife was not put their by him at all, nor his aunt who gave him the bag. So in your scenario with a gun in a car; if your aunt gave you a car, which you later discovered had a gun in the glove box, would you be okay with being sent to prison for possession of a gun without a license* when you hand in the mystery gun to the police?


*Or whatever crime you'd be committing.


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## The Reverend (Jan 16, 2012)

I understand that he broke the rules, I just don't think it's rational to punish someone for doing what they think is right. It really sets a horrible precedent. It's like that thing in China where you can be sued for helping someone. I remember that thread where a woman got stabbed at least a dozen times, and no one helps, and you have to wonder about this idea of being punished or liable for trying to do the right thing.


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> So what he should have done is leave it somewhere, and report that he found it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, what ever will make what I'm saying sink in better for you.

This isn't a scenario, or a hypothetical situation, it's not relevant who put the knife in the bag.

A child brought a knife to school, and is being punished for doing so. He is given a more lenient punishment because he came forth and told them what he found.

He is not being punished for turning himself in, that's idiotic. He is getting punished for having the knife.

It really is that simple, but everyone here seems to think that having the knife itself is the irrelevant information, and seems to only think a good deed is being punished, when it isn't at all. 

They even say that each incident is looked at, and there is no zero tolerance policy. So what he is getting is actually pretty nice, instead of being expelled and having to change schools.

Please don't bring up the Woman from China, we'll start another socio-centric tirade I don't have the energy to contend with.


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## ArkaneDemon (Jan 16, 2012)

A kid gets in trouble for a bullshit reason.

A ton of people get their high school diplomas and they can't even spell words correctly.

Self-defense is not permitted in schools.

What the fuck kind of racket are you guys running?


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

ArkaneDemon said:


> A kid gets in trouble for a bullshit reason.
> 
> A ton of people get their high school diplomas and they can't even spell words correctly.
> 
> ...



An awesome, not frozen one.


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## The Reverend (Jan 16, 2012)

I think my generation speaks for itself when it comes to what our wonderful education system produces.

People that can't point out England, don't know where Iraq is, and care more about Snooki than the future of the nation, or world, even.


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## Waelstrum (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> Sure, what ever will make what I'm saying sink in better for you.
> 
> This isn't a scenario, or a hypothetical situation, it's not relevant who put the knife in the bag.
> 
> ...



If he's getting punished for having the knife, and having the knife was not his choice, then he's being punished for a situation that was not his fault, in which he reacted in the correct and responsible way. You say that if the same happened to you, you would be fine with taking whatever punishment is decided for you. In that regard, I respect your consistency whilst disagreeing with your interpretation of how the rules should be applied.


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## Jakke (Jan 16, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> care more about Snooki than the future of the nation, or world, even.



Who is Snooki?


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## The Reverend (Jan 16, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Who is Snooki?



It's better if you don't know.


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## Jakke (Jan 16, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> It's better if you don't know.



Cheers for keeping my well being in mind


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## Jontain (Jan 16, 2012)

... fuck ... there are no words to describe such levels of stupidity....


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> If he's getting punished for having the knife, and having the knife was not his choice, then he's being punished for a situation that was not his fault, in which he reacted in the correct and responsible way. You say that if the same happened to you, you would be fine with taking whatever punishment is decided for you. In that regard, I respect your consistency whilst disagreeing with your interpretation of how the rules should be applied.


It doesn't matter if it was his fault or not. If he really is a good student, then he should be okay with whatever punishment is given to him, because he unwittingly broke the rules.

Do you tell the cop who pulls you over for expired tags that it wasn't your fault because you didn't know they were expired, are you going to get mad because a cop gave you a ticket for it?

You break the rules, unwittingly or not, and you have to take the consequences.

Also: Neg-Repper: Having drugs planted on you for a crime you didn't actually commit =! bringing a knife to school when you didn't know it. 

It's a knife people, a weapon that was brought into a school. He turned it in, yes, that is a very responsible thing for a 13 yr old to do. But he still broke the rules, it's not stupid, they're not punishing him for turning it in, they're not building an environment where children are learning to keep their mouths shut.

This is teaching them that rules are there for a reason, and they'll look at the situation to find the correct punishment for breaking the rules. 

I simply can't understand why everyone is so up in arms over this. If he was a well known good student (which the article doesn't say he is or isn't, just that a child turned in a knife he found in his bag) he was told, "thank you for turning this in to us. You understand that even though you didn't know it, you still broke the rules, so we are going to have to punish you."

If a child is responsible enough to turn in the knife, then he should be just as responsible for accepting the punishment.

Guys, this isn't a high school, it's a middle school. Middle school is a weird place for kids, their hormones are going crazy, and the little animals are trying to find out what and who they are. As a school administrator you have to look out for the well being of everyone, and I applaud them for looking at the situation and giving him a lesser punishment than what would have happened at my high school.

The video plays at people, and tells them that they're rational before hand, and flatters them into thinking they know what's right. So when he informs them they're wrong, their thinking is insulted, so they feel anger. He also fails to mention that it's an in school suspension, and only says it's a suspension, which leads people to believe that he was kicked out of school for 4 days. 

The dude is giving a third hand account of a second hand story... 

We don't know everything that happened. Maybe the student is known for not being an excellent student, but one that gets in trouble every so often for rough housing or getting bullied, what have you. And when he turns in the knife it could look like he brought it to defend himself from a bully, and had a change of heart with wanting to use it. So instead of telling the truth he says that he didn't know it was there, and that it wasn't his. 

This is just as likely of what happened, as what was reported. The article does not mention what kind of student he was, for all we know he was actually a bad student, and they cut him some slack for trying to do good.

I'm still saying they did a good job, and nothing is wrong here.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> It's all about perception. Did a teacher witness the child taking it away to try to protect other students? Or did they walk up to the incident and saw just saw them with it?
> 
> Does it matter what the actual facts are, or what the kids will say happened (be it a lie, to protect themselves from punishment, or the bully who had the weapon in the first place, or the truth)?
> 
> ...



This forum gets wrapped up in headline sensationalism WAY too much..which is very sad. It seems you've applied logic to the sea of "OMG! HE GOT PUNISHED FOR BEING GOOD! I HATE SKOOL AND I'LL NEVER GO AGAIN!?"

A little something to offset the unneeded neg-rep


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> It doesn't matter if it was his fault or not. If he really is a good student, then he should be okay with whatever punishment is given to him, because he unwittingly broke the rules.



So your saying that if you break the rules, no matter what, you should be punished? Is a man who kills an attacker or burglar at fault for murder? If you bought a car that had pot in it without you knowing it, you would be okay with being punished for possession? Intent is one of the most important parts of an action, and him bringing the knife to school was barely an action on his part.



Sicarius said:


> Do you tell the cop who pulls you over for expired tags that it wasn't your fault because you didn't know they were expired, are you going to get mad because a cop gave you a ticket for it?



That's a different situation; you know when you have tags because you have to have them and they expire regularly so you should know when they need to be renewed.




Sicarius said:


> It's a knife people, a weapon that was brought into a school.



That's another spot where intent comes into play. Most knives are not made to be weapons, they're made as tools. From the reported length(1.5") I highly doubt it was made to be a weapon, the only knives I can think of that are that short are putty knives, which couldn't harm anything as it lacks an edge, and an Opinel No. 2, which is a folding letter opener. I highly doubt it was an actual weapon.




Sicarius said:


> He turned it in, yes, that is a very responsible thing for a 13 yr old to do. But he still broke the rules, it's not stupid, they're not punishing him for turning it in, they're not building an environment where children are learning to keep their mouths shut.



That's exactly what they're doing. They want children to shut up and not do anything out of the ordinary. If your 25 then it's been over a decade since you were in middle school. Schools are scared, especially down in the South. Anytime a kid does anything unusual they freak out, they're scared an kid that doesn't conform exactly will become another Seung-Hui Cho. I know this first hand because right after Virginia Tech the administration at my middle school started suspending kids who drew pictures of guns.



Sicarius said:


> This is teaching them that rules are there for a reason, and they'll look at the situation to find the correct punishment for breaking the rules.



How so? They weren't protecting anyone from anything, just punishing someone who did the right thing. 

Let's through the whole "he was a good kid" thing out of the equation. It doesn't matter who he was or is, all that matters is what he did and the reaction.


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## ZXIIIT (Jan 16, 2012)

dragonblade629 said:


> So your saying that if you break the rules, no matter what, you should be punished? Is a man who kills an attacker or burglar at fault for murder? If you bought a car that had pot in it without you knowing it, you would be okay with being punished for possession? Intent is one of the most important parts of an action, and him bringing the knife to school was barely an action on his part.



There are some states where that is legal (self defense) and others where it is not allowed, they have a law that specifies you have to exit your home if someone breaks in (lame I know)

But the car/jacket thing, why would you not inspect the car/jacket and it's compartments? your the one buying it.... 

"Ignorance of the law is no defense" blah blah blah...


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## WickedSymphony (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> Do you tell the cop who pulls you over for expired tags that it wasn't your fault because you didn't know they were expired, are you going to get mad because a cop gave you a ticket for it?



Terrible analogy. The vehicle owner is fully aware that the car has registration tags on it that need to be renewed and the DMV even sends you a letter informing you when it's time to do so. 



> But he still broke the rules, it's not stupid, they're not punishing him for turning it in, they're not building an environment where children are learning to keep their mouths shut.



I'm pretty sure the students would think differently after this incident. Many students already tend not to trust being able to talk to adults at their schools, having a case like this does nothing to help that. Sure, he got punished for bringing the knife, not for the act of turning it in, but the way the kids will see it is that going to an adult when things like this happen opens them up to punishment as well.



> This is just as likely of what happened, as what was reported. The article does not mention what kind of student he was, for all we know he was actually a bad student, and they cut him some slack for trying to do good.



The article does not mention what kind of student he was, but it does mention he found the knife during his chess club. Knowing the chess club kids when I was in school, I find it very unlikely that he was a bad student.


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## WickedSymphony (Jan 16, 2012)

ZOMB13 said:


> "Ignorance of the law is no defense" blah blah blah...



I think you're using this incorrectly for the car example. That statement is supposed to mean that breaking the law is not excusable just because one isn't aware of a law or its content. It's not the same as knowing the law, but breaking it unknowingly; this is where dragonblade mentions the factor of "intent" as part of the issue.


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

WickedSymphony said:


> The article does not mention what kind of student he was, but it does mention he found the knife during his chess club. Knowing the chess club kids when I was in school, I find it very unlikely that he was a bad student.



Growing up I was a terrible child, and was in ISS every other week.

Didn't stop me from enjoying a game of chess in chess club.


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

dragonblade629 said:


> So your saying that if you break the rules, no matter what, you should be punished? Is a man who kills an attacker or burglar at fault for murder? If you bought a car that had pot in it without you knowing it, you would be okay with being punished for possession? Intent is one of the most important parts of an action, and him bringing the knife to school was barely an action on his part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The neat thing about humans being soft and fleshy, is that it doesn't take much for anything to be turned into a stabby type weapon. And if you know you're anatomy, getting stabbed in the neck area, is a pretty soft area. That bleeds a lot.

I'm sorry no one here sees my logic, and my rationalization, but to each his own.

But seriously, you guys thinking he should have just got off clean is just sad. We can't punish kids at home. Tebow forbid we try to teach them right and wrong in school.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> The neat thing about humans being soft and fleshy, is that it doesn't take much for anything to be turned into a stabby type weapon. And if you know you're anatomy, getting stabbed in the neck area, is a pretty soft area. That bleeds a lot.



Then by that rationale a pen is a weapon and is therefore illegal in school.


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## Prydogga (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> what the hell is the matter with you people?
> 
> The kid brought a weapon to school. It doesn't matter if he knew it or not. Turning in the weapon was responsible, but he'll suffer the consequences for breaking the law/rules.
> 
> ...



No disrespect, but I don't agree with you at all here. There should not be only back or white when it comes to rules. The reason knives aren't to be brought to school is for safety, when a kid voluntarily gives up the knife because he wants to to hid duty to uphold what the rule is in place for, punishing him for that action is bull.


Edit: Let's assume the part about the aunt is true, meaning he didn't intentionally break the rule. Him suffering for this is just wrong on every level. When someone gets punished for a reason beyond their control, I can't back it at all.




Sicarius said:


> But seriously, you guys thinking he should have just got off clean is just sad. We can't punish kids at home. *Tebow forbid we try to teach them right and wrong in school.*


The scenario in place doesn't support this statement at all! No one here is trying to stop kids being taught right from wrong, but punishing a kid when he's doing a morally right action, goes exactly against what should be taught.


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## Sicarius (Jan 16, 2012)

dragonblade629 said:


> Then by that rationale a pen is a weapon and is therefore illegal in school.



Sure, if that's what'll get you through the night to make your "intent" argument work.

By the way, what is the purpose of a tool, such as a knife, for a child when in school?

Oh, that's right. There isn't one. That's why it's considered a weapon.



Prydogga said:


> No disrespect, but I don't agree with you at all here. There should not be only back or white when it comes to rules. The reason knives aren't to be brought to school is for safety, when a kid voluntarily gives up the knife because he wants to to hid duty to uphold what the rule is in place for, punishing him for that action is bull.
> 
> 
> Edit: Let's assume the part about the aunt is true, meaning he didn't intentionally break the rule. Him suffering for this is just wrong on every level. When someone gets punished for a reason beyond their control, I can't back it at all.
> ...



"It's not okay to bring a knife to school, but if you didn't know you had it, no harm no foul"

That's the basic sentiment that this thread is generating.

"HEY HE'S GETTING PUNISHED FOR TURNING IN A KNIFE"

No, he's getting punished for having one in school. He's not suffering, he's not going to jail, or juvie, or being reassigned to a school for troubled kids. He's getting ISS. It's not the end of this kids world, folks.


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## Waelstrum (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> "It's not okay to bring a knife to school, but if you didn't know you had it, no harm no foul"
> 
> That's the basic sentiment that this thread is generating.



Yes, that's basically it.



Sicarius said:


> "HEY HE'S GETTING PUNISHED FOR TURNING IN A KNIFE"
> 
> No, he's getting punished for having one in school. He's not suffering, he's not going to jail, or juvie, or being reassigned to a school for troubled kids. He's getting ISS. It's not the end of this kids world, folks.



I highly doubt anyone is saying that the punishment is for the act of handing in the knife. What's being said is that the mere act of holding a knife is against the rules, no matter the reason. Some people are saying that he should be punished regardless of context, and others are saying that to have a fair judgement one must see the entirety of the situation. To say that he shouldn't be punished when you look at the reasons for holding the knife is not the same as saying that he is being punished for doing the right thing. Some people may have said that as a result of doing the right thing he got 'caught'. I know that the thread's title is a little sensationalist, but if you read the article (I'm sure you did) you'll see that's not what happened.


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## Prydogga (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> *"It's not okay to bring a knife to school, but if you didn't know you had it, no harm no foul"*
> 
> That's the basic sentiment that this thread is generating.
> 
> ...



But that's the thing, we're not not talking about someone who was caught, there should be no harm when it's someone who takes it upon themselves to hand it in because they know the rule is there, and they know they shouldn't have it. Punishing someone for the rule, after they hand in the knife because of the rule, is stupid. 

It's also principle, he may not be getting in a huge amount of trouble, but the point still remains that it's an unfair way to use the power the school has.


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## Fiction (Jan 16, 2012)

I use to bring a knife for apple-cutting, I never had any problems.. even cutting in front of teachers on duty. I think its cause I never intended on stabbing anyone in the face.

This whole thing does seem to have blown up a bit and the video words the original story, quite.. differently. Although it is only ISS, he is being punished for something he did not willingly commit. He didn't bring it to endanger anyone, in fact, he didn't even know he brought it, and I'm not seeing that the the punishment is for turning it in, I see why he was punished for having the knife in the first place. But I still don't understand why the administration couldn't use their heads in the first place to separate the difference between mistake and intent. 

At the same time, I do see where you're coming from. *Rules are Rules*, Sic is right by the book, but sometimes people should do things to suit context, not what some book says that does not outline the different scenarios.



> No running in the hallways



"Oh look, an axe murderer.. I might just *Run* now.."
"How dare you run in my hallways, go to the deputy."
"But a murderer!"
"I don't care, rules are rules"

Sure its an extreme way of putting it, but what if he didn't turn it in and some psycho took the knife out of his bag and went around attacking everyone.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jan 16, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> Sure, if that's what'll get you through the night to make your "intent" argument work.
> 
> By the way, what is the purpose of a tool, such as a knife, for a child when in school?
> 
> Oh, that's right. There isn't one. That's why it's considered a weapon.



So a knife is, by default, always a weapon? That's some screwed up logic.


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## Sicarius (Jan 17, 2012)

Because everyone who sees a knife only sees a "tool".

It's not screwed up logic. It's real world fucking experiences.

I live in Texas, and retail jobs don't want you carrying a knife. Because it can be seen as a weapon.

That's why it's a weapon.


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## Sicarius (Jan 17, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> I highly doubt anyone is saying that the punishment is for the act of handing in the knife.



Almost everyone coming into this thread has said, "He's getting punished for doing a good deed."

That's turning in the knife.

So, yes, yes they are. That's why I'm done with this thread. The sensationalism here is too much, that it's making me question why I'm friends with people.


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## The Reverend (Jan 17, 2012)

Well, now I know that if I find something on my person that's not legal to possess, to get rid of it rather than handing it over to the correct people. Blind obedience to the rules might end up fucking me over, you know?


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## Fiction (Jan 17, 2012)

This doesn't come down to sensationalism at all, no matter how bad the punishment is, there was NO need for it in the first place.


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## WickedSymphony (Jan 17, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> Almost everyone coming into this thread has said, "He's getting punished for doing a good deed."
> 
> That's turning in the knife.



Well, those saying that he got punished for the act of turning it in are wrong. But what a lot of others like myself are trying to get across is that the kids will see it as going to a faculty member when they find something they're not supposed to have could potentially get them in trouble. This just encourages kids to hold onto things and ditch them after school rather than turn it in immediately because even though 4 days ISS isn't the end of the world, no kid wants to deal with consequences, especially ones they see as unfair.


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## wlfers (Jan 17, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> So, yes, yes they are. That's why I'm done with this thread. The sensationalism here is too much, that it's making me question why I'm friends with people.



Really? I read through the thread and tried to keep out of it. But honestly the bulk of this thread is you making horribly inapplicable analogies- not sensationalism.

edit: if people are sensationalist, then you're definitely melodramatic with your "they're disagreeing with me, I'm now questioning why I'm friends with them" statement.


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## Jakke (Jan 17, 2012)

The problem here is that the school enforces its rules too rigidly. If anything, this teaches the kids to keep things from the adults, "Well, I'm going to get punished anyway". The severity of the punishment is not really the point either, he learned that he did something wrong by bringing this to the attention of the adults. If that is sensationalism then:




And _who_ is melodramatic now?


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## BlackMesa (Jan 17, 2012)

Weak ass shit. I remember the first day of hunting season back in highschool. Walk out into the parking lot and just about every truck had a hunting rifle in the back window. Not one rusty fuck was given. God damn nanny state.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 17, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> To answer the questions that I received from my neg-rep:
> 
> There are rules. The rules say, "No weapons of any kind on school property".
> 
> ...



You have outlined exactly why the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law; however, you chose the letter.


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## flint757 (Jan 18, 2012)

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I got tired of reading through the posts (long day).

I think people are saying it's dumb that he got in trouble because if he said nothing at all (which personally I wouldn't have) he would have gotten away with it. It is the mere fact that he was responsible that he got in trouble. Rules aside this is why it seems shitty.

Thus this promotes people to hide things and be less honest because it offers the best result, which is not something we should want to promote in our society.

That all being said he shouldn't have gotten in trouble, but they were semi lenient. In High School ISS was semi bad place, but in intermediate it's cake.


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## flint757 (Jan 18, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> Because everyone who sees a knife only sees a "tool".
> 
> It's not screwed up logic. It's real world fucking experiences.
> 
> ...



Also had to reply to this:

I live in Texas to. While yes crime in the Houston/Conroe area is pretty bad that is why I carry some form of weapon on me most of the time. You can't get arrested for a small knife I think the law is like 4 inches or the width of your palm. The store may not want you carrying one around, but I don't see the relevance.

Knives can be dangerous for sure. I had a friend who was messing with a kid and he pulled a knife out and sliced his hand practically off on the side. 

This kid did not commit an act of crime he turned it in. If I found a gun on the street and took it to the police station they would not arrest me. That is a more appropriate analogy IMO.

[EDIT] sorry for the double post


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## Wolf ov Fire (Jan 26, 2012)

I feel for this kid, the exact same thing happened to me in middle school as well. Just goes to show how well the US is run, and how our tax dollar$ are going to work for u$


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## The Atomic Ass (Jan 28, 2012)

ArkaneDemon said:


> A kid gets in trouble for a bullshit reason.
> 
> A ton of people get their high school diplomas and they can't even spell words correctly.
> 
> ...


As I've said before, and will continue to say, not one where I would let my children "learn".


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## tacotiklah (Jan 29, 2012)

Sorry, but the school was wrong on this issue. I've had this exact issue happen to me, except when I turned in the knife, the principal called home, confirmed that it was a mistake, kept the knife, and sent me on my way. My dad got the knife back later on. Reason I had it? We went camping and my dad gave me a pocket knife as part of a survival kit. It got left in my backpack and was forgotten about until the first day of school when that went down. 

I wans't a good kid in school by any means, but they were happy that I turned it in right away and let me go. And this was in a zero tolerance policy district. Kid should've gotten the same...


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## tacotiklah (Jan 29, 2012)

Double post, my bad.


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## SomeChump (Feb 8, 2012)

This is why I didn't stay in the school system for long. Tell my School I'm home-schooled for the last four years of my education? Yes. Do any home-school work? No. Am I smarter than over half of my would-be class? Yes.  

I feel like I would have been undoubtedly stupider if I'd have stayed in high school.


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## SomeChump (Feb 8, 2012)

dragonblade629 said:


> That's exactly what they're doing. They want children to shut up and not do anything out of the ordinary.



You sound like a conspiracy theorist with that statement. Anything you've said can now be thrown into the void.


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## synrgy (Feb 8, 2012)

There's a comment posted after the article that more or less sums up my reaction:



> Just imagine..... A man buys a used car. He is cleaning it out after buying it and finds a stash of heroin in the trunk. Being a good, law abiding citizen, he takes it to the police, and they arrest him for possession.. The judge reassures him that since he turned himself in he is only going to get a $250 fine instead of prison time. That they know he tried to do the right thing but they just CAN'T let it slide. That about sums up what happened here. Sheer lunacy.


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## flint757 (Feb 8, 2012)

SomeChump said:


> You sound like a conspiracy theorist with that statement. Anything you've said can now be thrown into the void.


 
Its not a conspiracy if it is more or less true  They just want you to come and go then get the fuck out whether you gained anything from the experience or not. Thats how the admins at my school behaved back in the day...


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## ArkaneDemon (Feb 8, 2012)

SomeChump said:


> You sound like a conspiracy theorist with that statement. Anything you've said can now be thrown into the void.



Fallacy: Poisoning the Well


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## Treeunit212 (Feb 9, 2012)

Jakke said:


> While I am seriously sceptical about anything that HowTheWorldWorks and/or the Huffington Post says, this seems like a legit reporting.
> 
> And it's damn shameful
> This is something you hear about on the Simpson, it's like the startup to Hot Fuzz...



Likewise...

I was banned years ago for challenging his stances on a few videos. I was literally 12 years old, and he felt threatened or offended by my logic... 

He's just an opinionated little baby.


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## Moolaka (Feb 20, 2012)

For what it's worth I'd had a knife in my pocket at least once a month when I was in high school. Most of the time I'd figure out I never took it out the night before when I jumped in clothes trying not to miss the bus (I did this a lot too). I'd just slide it in my pocket an keep shut about it, did that about 20 ti,es in two years (all by accident/not really caring) then one day I didn't figure out it was still clipped to my pocket as I stroll through the doors. The security officer (Cop) saw it and immediately pulled me aside. She and I were on really good terms (Read: I got away with everything) so she just said keep it in your pocket or you're going to jail. I got away with EVERYTHING though, straight A screw up she used to say.


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## Animus (Feb 21, 2012)

The kid was the bigger idiot to even tell the school he had brought a knife accidentally.


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## pink freud (Feb 21, 2012)

This is a case of responsibility. Is it reasonable to place responsibility on the kid for the knife being on school property?

Well, if we were to examine the everyday habits of people who routinely carry a bag, I believe we would find that said people do not examine the entirety of their bag every morning before setting off to work/school. Thus it would be _reasonable _to claim that the vast majority of people who carry bags do not know with 100% certainty what their contents are at all times. 

Now, look at the situation from the perspective of the kid. He is at school and discovers the knife inside his bag. As we know he did not put it there, we know that he does not know _when_ that knife entered into his possession. After the fact we assume (based from the article) that it was inside prior to purchase. But such knowledge would be impossible to possess at the time of discovery. One could also think that another student put the knife into his bag, mistakenly or maliciously. Surely in such a situation this kid would not be responsible, yes? So, at the moment of discovery, responsibility is not known. The kid then proceeds to perform a responsible action in reporting the knife. And the school does this to him. They punished him for the existence of the knife, not for the responsibility of the knife.


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## flint757 (Feb 21, 2012)

pink freud said:


> This is a case of responsibility. Is it reasonable to place responsibility on the kid for the knife being on school property?
> 
> Well, if we were to examine the everyday habits of people who routinely carry a bag, I believe we would find that said people do not examine the entirety of their bag every morning before setting off to work/school. Thus it would be _reasonable _to claim that the vast majority of people who carry bags do not know with 100% certainty what their contents are at all times.
> 
> Now, look at the situation from the perspective of the kid. He is at school and discovers the knife inside his bag. As we know he did not put it there, we know that he does not know _when_ that knife entered into his possession. After the fact we assume (based from the article) that it was inside prior to purchase. But such knowledge would be impossible to possess at the time of discovery. One could also think that another student put the knife into his bag, mistakenly or maliciously. Surely in such a situation this kid would not be responsible, yes? So, at the moment of discovery, responsibility is not known. The kid then proceeds to perform a responsible action in reporting the knife. And the school does this to him. They punished him for the existence of the knife, not for the responsibility of the knife.



The world does not exist on an honor system anymore, if ever. the surest way to stay out of trouble in ALL situations is to fade in the background. As far as his responsibility goes he just should have kept quiet. Having said that he shouldn't have gotten in trouble.


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## Osiris (Feb 22, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> If he'd brought a gun to school on accident, would you all be saying the exact same thing?



Yeah I would, though the kid probably would've noticed his bag was noticeably heavier and would've removed that shit at home and averted the situation. But something small like a knife....you'd blame the kid less for being unaware.



> In this kind of a circumstance, what he did was right (to turn it in), and he's going to go through with the consequences of bringing a knife to school.



So he should be both punished and praised for doing the right thing? Do you want to support or discourage that behavior? I think it should be one or the other.

It's cool how this forum always has dudes who look at both sides of the argument so much.


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## flint757 (Feb 22, 2012)

Osiris said:


> Yeah I would, though the kid probably would've noticed his bag was noticeably heavier and would've removed that shit at home and averted the situation. But something small like a knife....you'd blame the kid less for being unaware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To me he shouldn't have gotten in trouble, but he should have been smarter, realizing that the best option would have been to keep quiet. It's the reason I didn't ever mention it when I accidentally did it. I always assumed it was possible for the admins to act like dicks, why because they do about even smaller things.


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## Moolaka (Feb 22, 2012)

This is what happens when you only see black/white. It's utter folly to think that the consequences were commensurate with his actions. Does it matter if he was a good student? I think so. Would it matter if he was not? Yes. Would it matter if he was going to cut a sucka for gettin fresh over some chocolate milk? Yes. You can't assert that any part of this issue needs no consideration though, especially in relation to the main focu. It's easier to just throw a blanket on the issue and say rules are rules for a reason- and those are the rules. He was obviously truthful, the staff is letting the protocols do their job for them.


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## Sicarius (Feb 22, 2012)

Osiris said:


> Yeah I would, though the kid probably would've noticed his bag was noticeably heavier and would've removed that shit at home and averted the situation. But something small like a knife....you'd blame the kid less for being unaware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Thank you for turning the knife in, we appreciate it. However, disciplinary action will have to take place because you brought a knife to school."

It's not hard, people.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Feb 22, 2012)

Can we just let this thread die? This conversation is simply going in circles and the keeps going silent for a week then starting back up, but no one is adding anything. If there was an actual discussion that involved different arguments than what had already been used, it would be fine, but this is just getting stupid.


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## Powermetalbass (Feb 26, 2012)

Stupid...stupid...stupid.


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## Sicarius (Mar 3, 2012)

You guys seriously need to get the fuck over this thread already. God damn.


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## Fiction (Mar 3, 2012)

Lock?


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## The Atomic Ass (Mar 3, 2012)

Animus said:


> The kid was the bigger idiot to even tell the school he had brought a knife accidentally.


Not an idiot, merely ignorant. Some people don't come into contact with the lessons learned by others until they learn them first hand.


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## The Atomic Ass (Mar 3, 2012)

Osiris said:


> Yeah I would, though the kid probably would've noticed his bag was noticeably heavier and would've removed that shit at home and averted the situation. But something small like a knife....you'd blame the kid less for being unaware.


I don't know what kind of Carbon Fiber backpacks kids are hauling around empty these days, but my leather backpack, even when empty, is heavy enough that I can't tell when I have my full size 1911 in it. (which weighs in around 3 lbs loaded)


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## flint757 (Mar 3, 2012)

The Atomic Ass said:


> I don't know what kind of Carbon Fiber backpacks kids are hauling around empty these days, but my leather backpack, even when empty, is heavy enough that I can't tell when I have my full size 1911 in it. (which weighs in around 3 lbs loaded)



We can all agree on one thing. He'll never trust authority again. 

That being said it is in his best interest not too.


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## The Atomic Ass (Mar 3, 2012)

flint757 said:


> We can all agree on one thing. He'll never trust authority again.
> 
> That being said it is in his best interest not too.


It's in everyone's best interest not to.


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## makeitreign (Mar 3, 2012)

There are reasons for most, if not all, rules. The reason for rules like these is safety. The kid was presented with a situation in which he made the safest decision possible. In my opinion, it's not right to be punished by the same set of rules he was trying to uphold.


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## pink freud (Mar 3, 2012)

The Atomic Ass said:


> Carbon Fiber backpacks



I don't know if that's a thing but if it isn't it totally should be...


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## flint757 (Mar 4, 2012)

pink freud said:


> I don't know if that's a thing but if it isn't it totally should be...



Discovery Carbon Fiber Backpack - The Awesomer


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