# Just finished reading "An Infidel Manifesto"



## noodles (Jul 7, 2008)

An Infidel Manifesto: Why Sincere Believers Lose Faith

What an awesome fucking book. It presents a very calm and rational argument against Christian fundamentalism, citing Bible verses the whole time. The history of the development of the Bible and Christianity is particularly enlightening. Gary Lenaire was the guitarist for a Christian metal band for well over ten years, so it is written from the perspective of a former believer, and the thought process that led to him turning his back on a the religion that built his career.

What I found most impressive was the general tone of the book. It bore none of the aggression, anger, or arrogance I typically associate with atheist works. He even goes so far as to explain that such negative attitudes do nothing but harm to the cause he is trying to promote.

If you are struggling with the contradictions of the church, or feel that your faith is at odds with your observations, then this would be an excellent read for you. Too many works like this are preaching to the choir--pun intended, since too many atheists and "free thinkers" promote their lack of beliefs as aggressively as fundamentalists--while this one is from the point of view of someone who has been in your shoes.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jul 8, 2008)

Never read the book, but couldn't agree with you and your observations more, Dave.

While I still believe in... we'll say God, for lack of a better term, I myself totally abandoned my fundamentalist Christian beliefs. I still feel the same way about God, but I recognized that intolerant, dogmatic way of viewing him as being nothing like I feel.

It's almost like you've heard all these things about a stranger, and then you meet that stranger, and they're _nothing_ like how they were presented.


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## noodles (Jul 8, 2008)

I have to say that if God exists, he must be pretty pissed off at the three major monotheistic religions for painting him as a titanic digbag. If he *is* the same as portrayed in any of the three "holy books", then I never, ever want to meet him.


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## hairychris (Jul 8, 2008)

Sounds interesting. May have to add this to my 'to read' list.

The irony is that I kind of understand fundamental believers... you either believe it or you don't, y'know, rather then pick & choose. It's the moderates that I don't get. 

I'd like to see this guy's point of view.


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## Metal Ken (Jul 8, 2008)

hairychris said:


> The irony is that I kind of understand fundamental believers... you either believe it or you don't, y'know, rather then pick & choose. It's the moderates that I don't get.



How so? weather you believe is somethin you do or dont. Chicks dont get "Kinda" pregnant. So if you believe, you believe. However, Fundamentalists take this oft vague, mostly ancient and easily misunderstood book and promote their view as the only correct view?


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## Vince (Jul 8, 2008)

From Tourniquet's guitarist? Damn, I have to read this!


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## noodles (Jul 8, 2008)

hairychris said:


> The irony is that I kind of understand fundamental believers... you either believe it or you don't, y'know, rather then pick & choose. It's the moderates that I don't get.



Actually, it is the moderates that make the most sense to me. They are the ones who write off large sections of the bible as outdated, disproven, or outright prejudice/violent. I have a hard time understanding how a fundamentalist works, when there are clearly massive contradictions and illegal behavior riddled throughout the Bible. How do you reconcile "thou shalt not kill" with "for every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death"? The entire book of Leviticus is filled with crimes that demand capital punishment, as if the book before it (Exodus) and its Ten Commandments never existed.


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## noodles (Jul 8, 2008)

Vince said:


> From Tourniquet's guitarist? Damn, I have to read this!



That is why I read it. I always loved their music, and I find that his fall from faith mirrored my own in many regards. I was a member of the folk band at my Catholic church for five years. I did prison ministry. I was definitely a true believer, yet I fought to reconcile my beliefs with the contradictory evidence that my logical mind could simply not ignore. I empathized strongly with the author.


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## hairychris (Jul 8, 2008)

Metal Ken said:


> How so? weather you believe is somethin you do or dont. Chicks dont get "Kinda" pregnant. So if you believe, you believe. However, Fundamentalists take this oft vague, mostly ancient and easily misunderstood book and promote their view as the only correct view?



Without derailing I'm pretty much literal. IMO if you decide to believe in a religion with a 'holy' book or whatever, then take the whole thing as holy and don't pick & choose. Hence I understand fundies even if I vehemently disagree with them. I know that interpretation is a problem, but the very fact that it _is_ a problem is one reason why I think that holy books are nonsense to start with.

Don't ask.  I know.


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## noodles (Jul 8, 2008)

hairychris said:


> Without derailing I'm pretty much literal. IMO if you decide to believe in a religion with a 'holy' book or whatever, then take the whole thing as holy and don't pick & choose. Hence I understand fundies even if I vehemently disagree with them. I know that interpretation is a problem, but the very fact that it _is_ a problem is one reason why I think that holy books are nonsense to start with.
> 
> Don't ask.  I know.



He actually does a really good job of approaching this very argument. If you are a fundamentalist, then you have to shut down your rational thought processeses which point out all the glaring contradictions in the Bible. However, if you are a moderate, then you are essentially determining what you think is valid or not valid, meaning that you're playing God. Either way, you do not have a way to validate your belief with factual evidence, since it is just that: your belief. If you base that belief wholly or partly upon the teachings of an established religion, you are taking their word for it that they know what God is saying.


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## eleven59 (Jul 8, 2008)

hairychris said:


> Without derailing I'm pretty much literal. IMO if you decide to believe in a religion with a 'holy' book or whatever, then take the whole thing as holy and don't pick & choose. Hence I understand fundies even if I vehemently disagree with them. I know that interpretation is a problem, but the very fact that it _is_ a problem is one reason why I think that holy books are nonsense to start with.
> 
> Don't ask.  I know.



See, but moderates _don't_ take it to be a holy book, they take it to be a book written by human beings, and as such, flawed, just as they take the religious organization as being the same.

I'm pretty firmly agnostic, in that I think basically all organized religions are wrong to some degree, that their major uniting flaw is the arrogance of believing they are unquestionably correct. My strongest belief is that we, or at the very least I, don't know shit. I've got some pretty good ideas, but I would never claim to be 100% certain of anything. You could approach me tomorrow and tell me, with supporting evidence, that the sky isn't blue after all, the planet is actually hexagonal, and that oxygen isn't so much necessary, as much as it is a luxury, and I'd give it all serious consideration without feeling very shocked at all.

I was raised Catholic, in Catholic schools, with parents who themselves were not exactly strong believers (it was moreso grandparents involvement that led to me being baptized and put into a Catholic elementary school, I continued to Catholic high school simply to stick with my friends) who taught me to keep an open mind. I think it's no coincidence that, in their basic form, all world religions come down to the same principles (commandments, rules, etc.), and once you get past the mythology, embellishments, human involvement, and corruption, they're all basically pretty good, and telling you to be nice to the people around you, and to try to think about how you'd like it if they were a dickbag to you. 

As far as the details of who/what is/are god(s), and what, if anything, happens after we die, that's where I stand with a firm "I have no fucking clue, and would never claim that I have even the slightest notion of what might possibly be going on". I do tend to believe there's _something_ going on beyond our current abilities to grasp, I just haven't got a clue what it might be. 

As far as how I picture God, since I still have some lingering Christianity in me as much as I still remember believing in Santa Claus and know how the Tooth Fairy works, it tends to be along the lines of:

Amazon.com: Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal: Christopher Moore: Books
Dogma (1999)


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## hairychris (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm with both of your arguments, don't worry....

eleven59: I'm pretty firmly agnostic, in that I think basically all organized religions are wrong to some degree, that their major uniting flaw is the arrogance of believing they are unquestionably correct. My strongest belief is that we, or at the very least I, don't know shit.

100% on that. Agnostic atheist for my true position. Apathist for a better practical definition! 

Noodles: Either way, you do not have a way to validate your belief with factual evidence, since it is just that: your belief. If you base that belief wholly or partly upon the teachings of an established religion, you are taking their word for it that they know what God is saying.

Down with that too. Any religion that's works have some sort of physical dimension needs to put up or shut up.... Rather, try to muddle through (moderate) or ignore reality completely and ride that baby as far as it'll go (fundamentalist).


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## Lucky Seven (Jul 9, 2008)

I might have to give this a read. I'm atheist, but I hate how some atheists can be such dickbags on the subject of religion. That said, "The God Dillemma" is fucking awesome read too.


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## noodles (Jul 9, 2008)

eleven59 said:


> See, but moderates _don't_ take it to be a holy book, they take it to be a book written by human beings, and as such, flawed, just as they take the religious organization as being the same.



That is why moderation is the phase that many people pass through: either you step it up to the belief in biblical infallibility, or you leave behind the illogical nature of religion and embrace a more practical world view, even if you still believe in a higher power.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jul 9, 2008)

noodles said:


> Tor you leave behind the illogical nature of religion and embrace a more practical world view, even if you still believe in a higher power.



You summed me up.


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