# The New Violin family (Hutchin's Violin) - Extended Range Violin Content



## Trespass

Violin octet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The Hutchins Consort plays on the eight scaled violins of the violin octet designed and built by famed luthier Dr. Carleen Hutchins. The instruments are the first successful attempt to create an acoustically balanced set of instruments that can sound truly like violins across the entire range of written music. With instruments ranging from the tiny treble violin, tuned one octave above the standard violin, to the gigantic large bass violin, tuned one octave lower than a 'cello, the Hutchins Consort produces an astonishing palette of sounds.



--------

The Hutchins/Saunders Violin Octet reflects a revision of a 400 year old design. Unlike members of the traditional string family (Violin, Viola, Cello, Double Bass), all members of the H/S Violin Octet are based on a revised violin concept. (The most prominent difference apparently [I'm not an acoustical scientist] being that this design voices the top and back plates for middle two strings)

For those not versed in string family history, the violin and the viol are two separate designs, and the most prominent designs of the baroque are the ones we use today. They emerged victorious because they best met the demands of their time and stay victorious because of the tradition surrounding them. (They are also relatively ergonomic for the sound they output and the musical functions they serve, certain large string and lute designs have failed for due to their large size or due to the difficulty of producing sound)

The octet evolved over decades of trial and error. Carleen Hutchins and a few other luthiers built and rebuilt each menber of the octet several, if not numerous, times before the current dimensions for each of the instruments in the octet were dialed in. The octet instruments really went through an accelerated version of the development of any instrument.

For what the instruments are tuned to, refer to the wiki article above.

----

Video:


----------



## RichIKE

How is the Contrabass violin different from a standard upright Bass? They are tuned to the same pitches, so is it a build thing?


----------



## yingmin

Alto violinist, please.


----------



## Trespass

It's built with the violin formula, and sounds profoundly different. It is also is much larger, I cannot unfortunately find the site which outlines it's size.

Basically in string development, the viol came first. Several viol instruments are found throughout the Renaissance. It is unknown when exactly, but sometime in the very early 1600s the violin was developed, then perfected by the Cremona school during the Baroque (Stradivarius, Amati etc.).

The violin family as it is known today, is a hodge podge of different instruments and designs. A treble viola, for example, is a much different instrument than a violin.

A Telemann duet for treble and alto viol:



Wikipedia article that sort of talks about the difference:
Viol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There are literally thousands of different designs made throughout the Renaissance and the Baroque, but the most prominent fall into either the violin or viol design.

This excellent ensemble came to Toronto, showcasing several excellent baroque viol/violin instruments:

YouTube - &#x202a;Jordi Savall, Hespèrion XXI - Libertas, Anonyme (Philidor)&#x202c;&rlm;

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to see them.


----------



## Edika

One difference between the traditional string instruments and the octet family would be the spacings of the notes. Being a fretless instruments they require great accuracy to get the correct pitch for the notes as well as a very good ear. The cello and contrabass (that's how I know it, not as double bass) have different tunings also than the violin and viola. For an experienced player it would take some time to adjust to the dimensions but would be able to play them well. For inexperienced players it would be a nightmare hahaha.

I did 5 years of violin when I was young. The combination of an awful teacher, the high pitched noises coming out of the instrument right in your ear as well as the fact that any mistakes was like glass shoved in your ear made me stop.


----------



## Hallic

so basicly you could buy all the children versions of viola and cello and so, tune them as in the graph and have this new familly.

i really would like me some baritone violin


----------



## yingmin

Edika said:


> One difference between the traditional string instruments and the octet family would be the spacings of the notes. Being a fretless instruments they require great accuracy to get the correct pitch for the notes as well as a very good ear. The cello and contrabass (that's how I know it, not as double bass) have different tunings also than the violin and viola. For an experienced player it would take some time to adjust to the dimensions but would be able to play them well. For inexperienced players it would be a nightmare hahaha.


I'm not getting the supposed distinction. Half the instruments in the octet are tuned the same as a standard violin, viola, cello and bass. The other instruments are just tuned to the same pitches but in different octaves, so the note spacing wouldn't really be drastically different except for the scale. Also, a cello is tuned the same as a viola, just an octave lower. The bass (and, in the octet, the small bass) is the only instrument tuned in fourths instead of fifths. If you can play a shorter scale violin, viola, cello or bass, and certainly none of those are new in and of themselves, then you could play one of these new instruments just as easily.


----------



## Explorer

I guess this would be neat to some. Scaling up and down the size on a violin to create instruments with overlapping ranges... and adding more of them.

I'm not so concerned about how the octave above the middle range sounds when comparing a standard violin and the Hutchins violin an octave above, so I don't have a need for a tiny one. Then again, I love my six-string violin, so I'd rather have all the range on one instrument. 

Still, if one is a perfectionist, I can see why one would rather have 8 instruments which sound amazing in their tiny perfect ranges than 4 musicians who sound more than okay in their extended ranges. In terms of how much more that costs in terms of instruments and paying for musicians, I'd rather go for the quartet.

It will be interesting to see if enough people find this idea compelling enough to overturn the bowed string quartet paradigm. I suspect it won't happen, but never say never!


----------



## Trespass

I suppose you just have to be heavily invested in the classical school of thought to appreciate what they are trying to do. It's like turning the string family into an organ, or a piano, or a harp - The ideal scale for the pitch in that range.

Instead of having several schools of thought distilled into 4 separate instruments, you have a unified approach that is tonally complete. The typical string instrument family is not tonally unified, and this is an attempt to make it all one sound.

The real question being posed here is: Do we want the string section to have perfect tonal blend and sound homogeneous? 

If we do want that (and thus lose out in the character of all the different traditional instruments), then this is a solution modeled after the violin format.


----------



## Trespass

Explorer said:


> I guess this would be neat to some. Scaling up and down the size on a violin to create instruments with overlapping ranges... and adding more of them.
> 
> I'm not so concerned about how the octave above the middle range sounds when comparing a standard violin and the Hutchins violin an octave above, so I don't have a need for a tiny one. Then again, *I love my six-string violin*, so I'd rather have all the range on one instrument.



Acoustic violins in ranges larger than 4 strings always suffer compromises. If this is an acoustic violin, there is no way it could tonally compete with a violin proper. If it is an electric violin, then your statement doesn't make sense. The electric violin world is not being discussed whatsoever.



> Still, if one is a perfectionist, I can see why one would rather have 8 instruments which sound amazing in their *tiny perfect ranges* than 4 musicians who sound more than okay in their extended ranges. In terms of how much more that costs in terms of instruments and paying for musicians, I'd rather go for the quartet.



All of the typical tonal colors are still available, such as the classic Hollywood playing high position notes on the lower strings, or using the cello in extremely high ranges. None of that tone color is removed.



> It will be interesting to see if enough people find this idea compelling enough to overturn the bowed string quartet paradigm. I suspect it won't happen, but never say never!



Unfortunately, the classical world is marketed towards the ultra conservative pseudo-sophisticate.


----------



## Explorer

I'm not saying that the octet's sound isn't the best thing since sliced bread. One always reads about how the ears/palette/tastes of particular groups aren't as developed, and so they'll never appreciate this particular type of speaker/amp/caviar/violin performance philosophy. Tastes are tastes... but it always appears to me that if any argument is being made about another's tastes not being developed enough... there is definitely an argument being made which relies on someone being a sophisticate. 



Trespass said:


> Unfortunately, the classical world is marketed towards the ultra conservative pseudo-sophisticate.



That seems a little disparaging, and appears to contain this: "If you don't appreciate this solution, you are an ultra conservative pseudo-sophisticate." 

I know a lot of people who play music for a living and who really *love* the music they make. They spend money on the instruments and (in this case) bows which give them the best sound. Could it be that they fall into that category? 

That statements just seems like sour grapes, but maybe I don't know all of my friends well enough to recognize their pretension.

You're right about the six-string electric I own, but I have a viola which was converted to 5-string a while ago. One of those friends who was playing a lot of contra dances and interesting musics tightened up his collection in order to buy a better bow and sold it to me. I'm only one guy, and there was more money involved for each of us when playing out if we managed to do more with less people (the other group I'd imagine not rushing to adopt a 'more people" paradigm). 

Cheers!


----------



## Waelstrum

I like the idea, and will definitely give those videos a listen when my internet fixes itself. It seems to me to be a similar style of thinking that lead to multiscale guitars that lead to this. I actually think that this is a really good idea. Unfortunately, (according to my understanding of the classical world) the sort of people that this appears to be marketed to are stuck in the past. However, I think it would be really interesting to hear what some contemporary* classical composers would do with an ensemble such as this...

*I originally typed 20th century until I checked my watch


----------



## Vostre Roy

Pretty interesting stuff. The first thing that would probably give me trouble is that I'm playing a little bit of Viola, and if you look at their Alto Violin, it seems that its played like a cello, while I'm used to play it on my shoulder, like a Violin. But its cool to see that they tried to do something new with those grandpa's instrument

I had a Violin formation when I was 10, but didn't really like the songs I was playing and the tone of the Violin, so I stopped for more than 10 years, until I was given a Viola.


----------



## Trespass

You seem to be mis-interpreting my post as an attack, or some kind of assertion of superior taste. It isn't. At times, it was geared towards an easier target (society at large), but never towards you. 

I'm not saying it's aesthetically superior or not. I'm stating that this is an alternative aesthetic that one can choose to prefer over the traditional instrument or not, and if so, should it exist to compete with the traditional string family. If you believe it should co-exist (I think so - I'm all for alternative instruments that I don't have to travel all throughout the world to hear), should this new instrument family be modeled after violins?

That is the thought process that spawned this. American composer Henry Brant instigated this project because he wanted the tonal blend of a string section to be like that of piano or organ - Uniform.

I said 


> I suppose you just have to be heavily invested in the classical school of thought to appreciate what they are trying to do.


because one of the aesthetic ideals of a string quartet is how well they sound as a unit. Not as some "well you don't have the taste to understand this". By "investment", I refer to how much importance you've placed on classical ideals.



Explorer said:


> I'm not saying that the octet's sound isn't the best thing since sliced bread. One always reads about how the ears/palette/tastes of particular groups aren't as developed, and so they'll never appreciate this particular type of speaker/amp/caviar/violin performance philosophy. Tastes are tastes... but it always appears to me that if any argument is being made about *another's tastes not being developed enough*... there is definitely an argument being made which relies on someone being a sophisticate.



As stated above, not saying that.




> That seems a little disparaging, and appears to contain this: "If you don't appreciate this solution, you are an ultra conservative pseudo-sophisticate."
> 
> I know a lot of people who play music for a living and who really *love* the music they make. They spend money on the instruments and (in this case) bows which give them the best sound. Could it be that they fall into that category?



Not sure if I follow. If they are spending money on attaining what they personally consider ideal tone, doesn't that support the concept of the octet? The octet is about the ideal orchestral tone of Henry Brant, and he spent money to develop this idea.

-T


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

That recording sounded huge.


----------



## Nathaniel

Explorer said:


> You're right about the six-string electric I own, but I have a viola which was converted to 5-string a while ago. One of those friends who was playing a lot of contra dances and interesting musics tightened up his collection in order to buy a better bow and sold it to me. I'm only one guy, and there was more money involved for each of us when playing out if we managed to do more with less people (the other group I'd imagine not rushing to adopt a 'more people" paradigm).
> 
> Cheers!



If you don't mind my asking: What strings do you use on your 5-string?


----------

