# Who builds BRJs?



## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 30, 2011)

I'm a little curious about this, who exactly is building them at the moment? I know Bernie has some employees but does anyone know to what extent he's involved in the process?


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## myampslouder (Oct 30, 2011)

As soon as I saw the title and your screen name I braced for the worst lol


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## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 30, 2011)

Why?


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## scherzo1928 (Oct 30, 2011)

I was expecting pics of chinese sweatshops when I opened this thread.


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## TRENCHLORD (Oct 31, 2011)

lol,. Didn't notice it was Stealth's thread and was expecting it to be someone who didn't know what BRJ stood for.


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## Larrikin666 (Oct 31, 2011)

I talked to Bernie about this a good bit on Friday. Bernie, I apologize if I screw some of this up. He currently employs two guys in his wood shop who do the high level cutting and assembly. Bernie takes it at that point, touches up all the cuts and shapes it more. After he's happy with that, he also does all the finishes and fretting himself. That's some of the extend we got to in the conversation. I'm not sure who installs the hardware and sets the guitar up towards the end.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2011)

Larrikin666 said:


> he also does all the finishes



What happened to his paint guy?


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## killertone (Oct 31, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> What happened to his paint guy?


 Ed still does his paint.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm just curious why we never see the woodshop. There's dozen, if not hundreds, of pics of the paint booth, and work bench, but zero info on the woodshop. It's kinda odd given how often folks take pics around the BRJ shop. 

I also find it pretty hard to believe that three guys (Bernie included) can make so many perfectly identical Body/Neck Blocks using traditional cutting methods. Even builders like KxK, Thorn, and Oni who have such minimal output need CNC milling to keep up with builds. Guys who have been seeing doing hand cutting, like ViK and Deamoness take MUCH longer. Not saying using a CNC is bad, in fact it tends to increase the quality of work over time substantially. Does Bernie use CNC?


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## Larrikin666 (Oct 31, 2011)

^ he didn't really go into much detail about their methods. I remember him saying that he had 4 guys cutting for the longest time, but two of them didn't work out and we let go.

Bernie definitely said he's been doing the finishes lately. I've seen quite a few pictures of him doing so. He also said he's putting together some videos of him doing spray finishes as well.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 31, 2011)

Not trying to stir shit up by the way, just curious...


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## MTech (Oct 31, 2011)

He does all the setups, electronics, a swell as shaping on pick guards, hand cut bone nuts etc, shapes the necks as well as does some of the finishes. He doesn't use a CNC, and he also doesn't even use a duplicator like McNaught is seen using on his page. There's no photos of the wood shop because it's in a different building and he also doesn't want certain aspects of his building (secrets/techniques learned over 3 generations of guitar building) put out there. I've been pressing him to get some shots up through an entire build process without giving these away but at the moment he's trying to get all these BFR's done and shipped out. It's his woodshop though, not some ghost building shop, it's his private guys who have worked with the family for ages from what I understand. All they build is Rico Jr's and lately some special runs of customs for BC Rich...


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## Dan_Vacant (Oct 31, 2011)

I seen some bc riches on ebay that said Bernie Rico Jr does he own part of that or just build a few customs for that?


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## MTech (Nov 1, 2011)

Dan_Vacant said:


> I seen some bc riches on ebay that said Bernie Rico Jr does he own part of that or just build a few customs for that?


His dad founded it....his dad passed away in 99 and Bernie Jr Sold the company in 2001 in which he's had nothing to do with them until recently they started having him do some special customs.. I'm not sure how it works if BC Rich has you pay a premium to have it done by him or what...but aside from that he's not affiliated with them what so ever.


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## SirMyghin (Nov 1, 2011)

MTech said:


> He does all the setups, electronics, a swell as shaping on pick guards, hand cut bone nuts etc, shapes the necks as well as does some of the finishes. He doesn't use a CNC, and he also doesn't even use a duplicator like McNaught is seen using on his page. There's no photos of the wood shop because it's in a different building and he also doesn't want certain aspects of his building (secrets/techniques learned over 3 generations of guitar building) put out there. I've been pressing him to get some shots up through an entire build process without giving these away but at the moment he's trying to get all these BFR's done and shipped out. It's his woodshop though, not some ghost building shop, it's his private guys who have worked with the family for ages from what I understand. All they build is Rico Jr's and lately some special runs of customs for BC Rich...



Those trade secrets must be pretty good, what with making guitars with no visibly distinguishable differences from others. I call BS in order to dodge a topic that is secret for reasons that are likely unsightly. I don't see unique neck joints, or anything that cannot be easily replicated on these guitars.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

In my limited experience the only aspect I've been luthiers keep secrets is the way they chamber their guitars.


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## ibanezRG1527 (Nov 2, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> What happened to his paint guy?



Nobody knows. . . . . He's been missing for weeks. . . .


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## JPMike (Nov 2, 2011)

Actually, from a really reliable source, the one guy of the 2 is one of the builders his father got in his shop, which he is one of the best out there. So figure, why the production has become increasingly better and faster.


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## demonx (Nov 2, 2011)

I wouldn't bet my life on it, BUT, I have heard from people that know the family the guitars are being built as blanks by: 

Enrique Pasaye and crew who are located at 15 April Street, Pan-American Colony, Tijuana, Mexico.

If anyone is in the area and can get past their security, take some pics. They are ghost builders who build for many USA companies and it's kept a secret.

Like I said, I cannot guarantee this, but it's probably the best lead thats been posted so far.


Side note, Jorge Pasaye used to be in business with Enrique till they had a falling out. Not sure what the history is or if they are back in businessbut here's his (the brothers) website: http://www.guitarraspasaye.4t.com/


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 2, 2011)

What I don't understand is that if his builders are legends who worked with his father, why are things so hush-hush, and why has he claimed in the past to do "everything"? Wouldn't he want everyone to know that the guys building the guitars are highly skilled master craftsman? At the same time, if all these guys are doing is rough cutting of body/neck blocks, isn't it a HUGE waste of talent? Especially if these guys still need to differ to BRJ to get certain things done.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

It's like keeping Mike Shannon a secret I guess. Has anyone actually ever just asked Bernie?


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## Valennic (Nov 3, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> It's like keeping Mike Shannon a secret I guess. Has anyone actually ever just asked Bernie?



Doubt it 

And honestly I don't think too many people give a damn. He puts out very high quality guitars, with the occasional lemon obviously, but still. Can't deny that people adore his guitars, and 95% don't really care where they came from.


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## SirMyghin (Nov 3, 2011)

^^ I really don't think that will be the case. You might be dreaming in neon there. If they are blanked out of the USA, it will be a shitstorm as the prices can't come near justifying that.


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## Valennic (Nov 3, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> ^^ I really don't think that will be the case. You might be dreaming in neon there.



I dunno. I mean, there are plenty of people who are going to be like "DID YOU REALLY MAKE THIS?!" But I'm sure a lot of them are just very happy with the guitar, and details like that escape their notice for quite a while.

Sneaky bastard, editing 

Yeah, if it is found out they're outsourced to Mexico, shitstorm is definitely inbound, as those prices would be horrendously over inflated. However, if its just a USA team of ghost builders, I don't see a huge issue.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2011)

Valennic said:


> 95% don't really care where they came from.



I don't know, I think if folks who paid a significant premium for a USA made custom guitar found out they were getting something from a Mexican factory (not dissing Mexico, just talking about the cheaper labor) would be pretty irate. 

Not saying that's what's happening here, as I haven't seen real proof that BRJ guitars are being made in Mexico.

I remember there being a pretty big stink awhile back over the "USA" neckplates that a lot of Ibanez guitars got in the 80's and 90's. It was pretty misleading in a lot of cases, especially on models that weren't marked as MIJ. Back then being MIJ was almost the equivalent of what being MII is today. To this day there is still confusion.


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## Valennic (Nov 3, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, I think if folks who paid a significant premium for a USA made custom guitar found out they were getting something from a Mexican factory (not dissing Mexico, just talking about the cheaper labor) would be pretty irate.
> 
> Not saying that's what's happening here, as I haven't seen real proof that BRJ guitars are being made in Mexico.



I for some reason skimmed over the MIM part 

In my post up yonder, I clarified that. If he does have the builders in mexico, the prices do need to be a lot lower than they are. However, if its still US labor, even if hes not the one doing the labor, people can't really deny its quality work.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 3, 2011)

I hope this doesn't turn into a witchhunt to find his birth certificate.


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## Valennic (Nov 3, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I hope this doesn't turn into a witchhunt to find his birth certificate.



Donald Trump to the rescue!


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2011)

Honestly, I don't really see any real proof that BRJ uses Mexican Ghost Builders to make his body/neck blocks (Did I really just say that? ). I see that at least one of the brother mentioned worked for Sr., but it doesn't seem like it went much further than that. Sounds a little far fetched.


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## Valennic (Nov 3, 2011)

Well a prominent builder like Bernie who doesn't really get specific is going to be open to a lot of speculation. By not just saying, this is where it is, now stfu, he's opened himself up to flak from a lot of different places.


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## SirMyghin (Nov 3, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Honestly, I don't really see any real proof that BRJ uses Mexican Ghost Builders to make his body/neck blocks (Did I really just say that? ). I see that at least one of the brother mentioned worked for Sr., but it doesn't seem like it went much further than that. Sounds a little far fetched.



It is definitely far fetched, but as Valennic said, secrets leads to speculation.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 3, 2011)

Well that was kind of weird he told Max to STFU


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## aWoodenShip (Nov 3, 2011)

Personally, Mexican Ghost Builders sounds worth the upcharge.


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## SirMyghin (Nov 3, 2011)

aWoodenShip said:


> Personally, Mexican Ghost Builders sounds worth the upcharge.



Only if it comes with authentic taco sauce.


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## demonx (Nov 3, 2011)

Far fetched?

Bernie sr used them for decades. Had regular truckloads made and trucked back as blanks, finished in the USA.

They even had a name for the place "B.C. South" and they called the American bc north.

This is fact. So if jr learned all he knew from his father and says he uses his fathers old builders, why does this sound far fetched hed use the old contacts ?


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## Hollowway (Nov 3, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Well that was kind of weird he told Max to STFU



No, I think he was saying that if Bernie said, "this is where it [the woodshop] is, now stfu," there would be a lot less speculation about it, as opposed to what is happening by his not commenting on it at all. I think that was just an unfortunate lack of quotes in that sentence.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 3, 2011)

Oh I see, poor guy.


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## TomAwesome (Nov 3, 2011)

See, people of the internet, this is why having a basic grasp of punctuation use is important.


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## Fred the Shred (Nov 3, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> What happened to his paint guy?



He said "Fred, I'd like your Sherman 8". My diplomats took care of the "negotiations".


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 3, 2011)

Fred, I'd like your Sherman 8.


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## Rick (Nov 3, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Mexican Ghost Builders



Max, can I use this as a song title?


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## MTech (Nov 6, 2011)

You guys do realize that Mexico is 3 hours (no traffic) from where Bernie is at right?
He's got his own guys in his own place and it's close by and USA. The only out sourcing is certain inlays I know were being done by the guy who's the best of the best and works for Fender & Gibson...this is why getting something custom inlay wise can add a lot of time to an order as the big companies hold priority. This is no surprise as almost every company outsources that stuff there's whole articles out there about the PRS Dragons for example.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 6, 2011)

BRJ uses Ron Thorn for inlays right? I'd certainly call him the best.


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## elq (Nov 6, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> BRJ uses Ron Thorn for inlays right? I'd certainly call him the best.



As does Jackson


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## SirMyghin (Nov 6, 2011)

MTech said:


> You guys do realize that Mexico is 3 hours (no traffic) from where Bernie is at right?
> He's got his own guys in his own place and it's close by and USA. The only out sourcing is certain inlays I know were being done by the guy who's the best of the best and works for Fender & Gibson...this is why getting something custom inlay wise can add a lot of time to an order as the big companies hold priority. This is no surprise as almost every company outsources that stuff there's whole articles out there about the PRS Dragons for example.



These things are simple to get done and over with, only takes a few words. However, as long as it is left covert, you will have speculation and disbelief. It is a really simple concept. 

From a guy living in Ontario, 3 hours is childs play.


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## Hollowway (Nov 6, 2011)

elq said:


> As does Jackson
> 
> [kickass Jackson images]



Ho-lee COW! That is the best looking sixer I've ever seen. Where is Mesh?! He needs to see that! Where did you find that (url)? As a fan of Jackson's and all things Japanese, I fully approve of that. So what are the inlay materials in that? Any idea?

EDIT: Found it: http://www.spotlightmusicstore.com/...-korina-wenge-inlaid-top-samurai-warrior.html. Inlay is wood, metal, bone, and pure awesomeness.


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## basssolo4u (Nov 6, 2011)

Hello Guys,
New to this forum and lots of useful information to be found in a lot of the posts. I am the proud owner of 3 Bernie Rico Jr. guitars, a few BRJ basses, half a dozen U.S. BC Rich guitars, a dozen Cort guitars and a bunch of other nice stuff. After reading this post I am very puzzled about what anyone would have to gain by posting the info contained here. 

My point is no one held me by force to buy any of my instruments. I ask a lot of questions before I buy something and if I don't like the answers I get I don't buy the product. 

2 of my Bernie Rico Jr. guitars are Hybrids. Not sure who is up on them or not but the quality on them is so awesome they could pass for 100% handmade in the USA and no one would really be the wiser. Put them up against other brand US hand-made guitars with a solid finish and they smoke 'em.

When I got them they were advertised as core made and painted in Korea, guitar assembled and setup in US. by Bernie Rico Jr. From a legal standpoint Rico had the option of saying made in the US as technically speaking if they are assembled and setup in the US they are actually made in the US. He was honest about these instruments and that shows good business sense and an honest nature.

All of this second guessing and supposing only casts a dark light on a company with stellar guitars.

If Rico wants to keep his trade secrets and other resources private that is his business. If you do not want to buy his guitars that is your business.


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## Hollowway (Nov 6, 2011)

basssolo4u said:


> ...a dozen Cort guitars and a bunch of other nice stuff.





Also, no offense but no one is going to take an "Inland Empire" single post defending a luthier from the Inland Empire seriously. We're a pretty passionate group on here, and no one, including the mighty Jackson Guitars, gets a pass. We critique everything and are critical of everything (as we should be) because of high standards. I think it's pretty evident how many people on here own Rico Jr.'s (and have ordered them) that as a whole we're as big a fan as anyone. But, this is the internet, people have questions, and there is no information coming from any official source, so something is going to fill the vacuum. I might be just speaking for myself, but I love my Rico, and have 2 more on order, and I have zero problem with his quality. I do have an issue with the business practices of luthiers in general, and I don't think it's that unusual to have those concerns. 

TL;DR - Get up over 100 posts and I might believe you're not Bernie's mom.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 6, 2011)

That's Mrs. Rico to you heathen.


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## Hollowway (Nov 6, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> That's Mrs. Rico to you heathen.


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## basssolo4u (Nov 6, 2011)

Bernie's mom has just left the room.  That was a good one. Who cares about making sense anyway when you can have idle speculation? I am more interested in where someone is coming from then where they live. 
Thanx man.


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## Hollowway (Nov 6, 2011)

basssolo4u said:


> Bernie's mom has just left the room.  That was a good one. Who cares about making sense anyway when you can have idle speculation? Thanx man.



OK, well while she's out, I will agree that idle speculation is no good. But questions (which Stealth asked initially, and people are trying to answer) should be OK. I don't know where the line is drawn. My point is more that we have a little community here, and while I welcome you or anyone else to it, I get a little irritated to have your first and only post to tell us we're wrong and you're right, given that you have no more information than us. (Actually I guess I'm more generically defending this site, since I agree with you about BRJ.) Anyway, I'd love for you to put me in my place and post a thread with some shots of your Ricos and maybe introduce yourself in the new member area. I guess (in the absence of BigPhi and the rest of the unofficial official new member welcoming committee) I'll be the first to welcome you.  Now go post up some belated NGDs, or I swear to God Mrs. Rico, I will be pissed!


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## mikernaut (Nov 6, 2011)

Sure there's some mystery but his guitars are pretty reasonably priced for what you get. You'd have to spend alot more with some of the big name companies for something with the same features and quality. I know my ESP and Jackson Customs were atleast $1000-$1500 more then my BRJ's.

Bottom line if the quality is there is it really an issue? ( when his quality control is not sleeping  )

I for one think he has employed magic elves from Santa's Workshop! hahahaha


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## Hollowway (Nov 6, 2011)

mikernaut said:


> Sure there's some mystery but his guitars are pretty reasonably priced for what you get. You'd have to spend alot more with some of the big name companies for something with the same features and quality. I know my ESP and Jackson Customs were atleast $1000-$1500 more then my BRJ's.
> 
> Bottom line if the quality is there is it really an issue?



Yeah, quite frankly I don't care. I DO like transparency, so my general feeling is that if someone is hiding something there must be something they are/feel guilty about. But I don't care if magic elves make them, so long as they're really good. I mean, my iphone is made in China, but it's damn good quality. If Apple wouldn't tell me where it was made I'd wonder what the hell was going on that they were tight lipped about it. But generally, I've never believed that BRJ does all the work himself. There's just no way one guy can crank out that many guitars single handedly. And I own (or have on order) 3 BRJs, knowing that.


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## djpharoah (Nov 7, 2011)

basssolo4u said:


> Hello Guys,
> New to this forum and lots of useful information to be found in a lot of the posts. I am the proud owner of 3 Bernie Rico Jr. guitars, a few BRJ basses, half a dozen U.S. BC Rich guitars, a dozen Cort guitars and a bunch of other nice stuff. After reading this post I am very puzzled about what anyone would have to gain by posting the info contained here.
> 
> My point is no one held me by force to buy any of my instruments. I ask a lot of questions before I buy something and if I don't like the answers I get I don't buy the product.
> ...


Now call me nuts but it's very suspicious that you _just _joined up to introduce yourself, post guitars, talk about your BRJs being great and what not etc etc... in a thread about BRJ and you've got a few BRJs... It seems totally like you were put up to it. You should have probably introduced yourself first and posted pictures so that you don't come across comically suspicious as you do now.


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## basssolo4u (Nov 7, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> I get a little irritated to have your first and only post to tell us we're wrong and you're right


 I am NOT here to judge anyone right or wrong. I came here to be part of the discussion. The views expressed in this post seemed to be rather cycloptic and pointed in a direction lacking substance so I threw in my 2 cents worth since I do really dig Bernie's guitars. BTW, Thanks for the warm welcome and I do look forward to posting some images and posts shortly.


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## MTech (Nov 7, 2011)

Larrikin666 said:


> ^ he didn't really go into much detail about their methods. I remember him saying that he had 4 guys cutting for the longest time, but two of them didn't work out and we let go.


This is not accurate.



mikernaut said:


> You'd have to spend alot more with some of the big name companies for something with the same features and quality. I know my ESP and Jackson Customs were atleast $1000-$1500 more then my BRJ's.



Even still in many cases I seriously think you'd be hard pressed to get the same quality IMO. (talking big companies that is) I think some can come close, but I've seen so many issues from the big names that it really makes me lose faith in those guys sometimes.. especially when they charge an absolute fortune. In a way though I think that's a good thing..I'd rather support smaller independent builders like BRJ,KxK,McNaught etc. especially in an economy like we have now.
Still you're right for example everybody is tooling out over that 8 string Jackson on ebay for $4000...Bernie would sell the same thing for $3000 and even if you decked it out with a figured top it still would be less than they want.


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## noob_pwn (Nov 7, 2011)

Honestly I couldn't care less where BRJ's are made.
I've owned 3 and have another on the way.
They are fantastic guitars and the craftsmanship & tone are worth the price you pay, that's what matters to me


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## jeremyb (Nov 7, 2011)

Geez not enough to chat about at the latest meeting of the sewing circle eh girls?? I'm sure all this idle speculation is just that, speculation, nothing concrete in this thread only hearsay, and I don't own any BRJ guitars, altho I would if I was in the US!


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## Rook (Nov 7, 2011)

Subscribed.


I don't think Mexican cut bodies would put me off BRJ, and I'm so close to ordering one (they're actually pretty cheap considering the UK market for very very high end gear).

Interested though... Anybody got a straight answer?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 7, 2011)

They aren't that cheap for actual full on customs iirc.


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## basssolo4u (Nov 7, 2011)

jeremyb said:


> Geez not enough to chat about at the latest meeting of the sewing circle eh girls?? I'm sure all this idle speculation is just that, speculation, nothing concrete in this thread only hearsay, and I don't own any BRJ guitars, altho I would if I was in the US!


 Hey . . Don't try to make sense around here!!
BTW, My aunt has a pair of handlebars so she MUST be a bicycle.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 7, 2011)

So, after reading 3 pages of this, is there a shred of evidence that anyone has or is it just a bunch of hear say justifiying a bashing?


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## Rook (Nov 7, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> They aren't that cheap for actual full on customs iirc.



Full custom, shipped and taxed to the UK with average specs would come in about £2200.

A PRS custom 24 will cost you £2700, a Jackson SL2H about £2400, a Daemoness once you add a case and crap will be approaching £2100...

Not too bad I wouldn't say. Your average off the shelf Mayones would probably cost about the same, if not more.

In the UK anyway.


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## PirateMetalTroy (Nov 8, 2011)

Fun111 said:


> Full custom, shipped and taxed to the UK with average specs would come in about £2200.
> 
> A PRS custom 24 will cost you £2700, a Jackson SL2H about £2400, a Daemoness once you add a case and crap will be approaching £2100...
> 
> ...



YIKES!


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## Emperoff (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't know if you remember that people like Roadkiller actually chose the wood and neck blanks in person, so even if the blanks are cut in Mexico, the wood still comes out of Bernie's place. If everything is done perfectly with CNC or whatever and any imperfection is fixed by Bernie afterwards I don't think it's such a big deal anyway. 

I really think that you Americans give waaay too much importance to the "Made in USA" thing. If a Mexican worked building guitars in the USA should he say "Made in USA, but by a Mexican" so we can judge the "fair" cost of the guitar? I could care less if the guitar is made in USA, Poland, England, or whatever as long as the quality is up to the price (or better, obviously).

People pay 2500$ for Ibanez UV777s after all...


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## mikernaut (Nov 8, 2011)

Yeah I kinda agree with Emperoff . I don't think the "made in the USA" quality is as high as it once was. Maybe it's more about keeping the money flowing within America's Economy.

I applaud people from wherever that do stellar quality in their craft, cuz there's way too much half- assed production/quality these days just to collect that precious $.

I know ESP/Japan has some pretty awesome quality from the guitars I have tried/owned. but there's always gonna be certain "duds' from any company. Sometimes the wood isn't good. lol


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 8, 2011)

Honestly, I don't care where they (or any other guitar out there) are made either, as long as it's fully disclosed to the buyer and potential buyers. 

Don't tell me you guys wouldn't care if it came out tomorrow that Ibanez JEMs were made in China, or that ESP STEF8s were made in India.


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## HighGain510 (Nov 8, 2011)

Emperoff said:


> I really think that you Americans give waaay too much importance to the "Made in USA" thing. If a Mexican worked building guitars in the USA should he say "Made in USA, but by a Mexican" so we can judge the "fair" cost of the guitar? I could care less if the guitar is made in USA, Poland, England, or whatever as long as the quality is up to the price (or better, obviously).



I think you're actually missing the point of what people are getting at here entirely.  What they're saying is (if it's actually true since it seems this is mostly speculation still?) if the guitars are actually BUILT in Mexico, that much should be disclosed. Why? Well, the labor and regulations of said labor differ from country to country as does the cost (and quality is often tied to that, unless you think a guy getting paid $3/hr is going to do the same quality work as someone being paid $50/hr would... ) and I think most people prefer to know that kind of thing. Not to mention that it truly isn't correct if you're labeling it as Made in the USA if it truly isn't. You'll note that say for example, the Apple iPhone, is labeled as "Designed in California, Assembled in China". It doesn't make people buy them any less, but it does have full disclosure tied into the item which is how it should be. If you truly feel that a guitar built by someone getting paid less than minimum wage is going to stand up to a guitar that is built by someone getting paid a salary in line with the industry for "craftsman builds" more power to you, but I personally don't feel that is always the case and if the labor is outsourced it should be disclosed just as other builders do. 

Prime example of an apples to apples comparison: 

Suhr has the "Rasmus" line which although it is designed by John Suhr in California and all the final assembly and fretwork is done in the US, it is built in China with Chinese labor. Nothing wrong with that, but guess what they disclose?







That's all people are asking for I think, if it's not actually BUILT in the USA which if you're having most of the labor done in Mexico, I don't think you can say it was built here. Again I'm not saying that's what he's doing just basing it off what the person who stated they had actual information about it including addresses which makes it seem a little less suspect if he has proof to back up the accusations.  If you knew that the guys doing 80-90% of the work on the guitar were making like $10, would you feel okay paying $2500 for it? That's the root of the issue IMO.

Also I think it's a little offensive that you're taking the whole "you Americans" tone on here dude. How many folks from the UK, Europe etc. all bitch about Made in Indonesia or Made in China guitars? Do yourself a favor, scan some threads and come back when you have a more informed and less ignorant way of posting your thoughts, that kind of tone isn't necessary since it's not coming solely from folks in the USA. 


I personally have no horse in this race and have no issue with guitars built wherever. I own and have owned guitars made from most of the major countries, and love them all if the quality is there, no bias here... a good guitar is a good guitar, period.  However with that being said, I also believe in full disclosure.


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## TheJokker (Nov 8, 2011)

Have we established that all brj guitars are built in Mexico or just maybe some? Is it even relevant? The only real question is how brj guitars compare with the competition. Are they of equal or superior quality? Are they less expensive than other custom guitars? Is the wait time quicker?

i have two orders with bernie so I am in fact betting the answer is yes.


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## Hollowway (Nov 8, 2011)

TheJokker said:


> Have we established that all brj guitars are built in Mexico or just maybe some? Is it even relevant? The only real question is how brj guitars compare with the competition. Are they of equal or superior quality? Are they less expensive than other custom guitars? Is the wait time quicker?
> 
> i have two orders with bernie so I am in fact betting the answer is yes.


 
Cost: Super high value (high quality to price ratio).
Quality compared to competition: Great.
Wait time: 12 months-24 months
MIM? For me, I don't care. Unless the quality goes down. 

TBH, I think the only reason this thread or any other discussion about things other than the quality of the guitars is because of ultra long delays beyond quoted build times and some recent guitars delivered with incorrect specs. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the internet tends to fill it with whatever it can find. In this case, discussions about all things other than his guitars, because up until 4 weeks ago almost no one had received a guitar in nearly a year.


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## Rap Hat (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't quite get the jumps in logic needed to assume it's been established that even some BRJs are built in Mexico. The speculation is based on one guy saying that Bernie Rico Sr. had some BC Richs built in Mexico, and that supposedly Bernie Jr. employs a few builders that worked for his dad.

While full disclosure from Bernie would be nice (at the very least for paying customers), I think a "Mexico Ghost Build" rumor is crazy without any evidence.


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 8, 2011)

MTech said:


> You guys do realize that Mexico is 3 hours (no traffic) from where Bernie is at right?
> He's got his own guys in his own place and it's close by and USA. The only out sourcing is certain inlays I know were being done by the guy who's the best of the best and works for Fender & Gibson...this is why getting something custom inlay wise can add a lot of time to an order as the big companies hold priority. This is no surprise as almost every company outsources that stuff there's whole articles out there about the PRS Dragons for example.


His father never really cared about the 3hr drive. Just saying.


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## Emperoff (Nov 8, 2011)

HighGain510 said:


> Also I think it's a little offensive that you're taking the whole "you Americans" tone on here dude. How many folks from the UK, Europe etc. all bitch about Made in Indonesia or Made in China guitars? Do yourself a favor, scan some threads and come back when you have a more informed and less ignorant way of posting your thoughts, that kind of tone isn't necessary since it's not coming solely from folks in the USA.



I think it's you who took it the wrong way and the one that is calling me an ignorant while I'm just stating my opinion. If you don't agree with the American patriot love, more power to you. However, I don't know many people that usually refer to guitars outside their country as "imports" (even if that's actually what they are) generally with degrading tone, besides americans. Just to name an example. I have no intention of starting a debate here as it was just a comment with no second intentions. Obviously you think otherwise.

People nowaday works their asses off besides their salary, or they get fired. I don't give a damn what the Mexican elves earn at hour, and you shouldn't either. Otherwise you are just being a hypocrite because most of the stuff at your everyday home is most likely made at megafactories by underpaid workers.


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## MTech (Nov 8, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> His father never really cared about the 3hr drive. Just saying.


So you're saying you knew his father personally and know this is how he ran his business....


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## jeremyb (Nov 8, 2011)

I have it on good authority that Bernie has an army of Oompa Loompas who build all his guitars, all he actually does it wipe the chocolate off them before he packages them up to send.


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## MTech (Nov 8, 2011)

jeremyb said:


> I have it on good authority that Bernie has an army of Oompa Loompas who build all his guitars, all he actually does it wipe the chocolate off them before he packages them up to send.



OH shit forgot to wipe the chocolate off of this one..


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## HighGain510 (Nov 8, 2011)

Emperoff said:


> I think it's you who took it the wrong way and the one that is calling me an ignorant while I'm just stating my opinion. If you don't agree with the American patriot love, more power to you. However, I don't know many people that usually refer to guitars outside their country as "imports" (even if that's actually what they are) generally with degrading tone, besides americans. Just to name an example. I have no intention of starting a debate here as it was just a comment with no second intentions. Obviously you think otherwise.



Seriously? Yes, it is ignorant. "Import" is used in MANY countries... like, oh I dunno, any country that receives goods NOT made in their country. The term is IMPORTING goods, it literally means purchasing something from another country and bringing it into your country that does not match the origin country of the item. Just because the person happens to be an American doesn't mean it is absolute that is it being said in a degrading way. Again, you make false assumptions with a biased view. The tone is very clear in your post.


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 8, 2011)

MTech said:


> So you're saying you knew his father personally and know this is how he ran his business....


I'm not here to argue or nitpick about little facts but I think it's common knowledge Sr did this stuff. Ask any ex-employee that was around "back then". I've spoken to people I've found trustworthy.


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## demonx (Nov 8, 2011)

Ok - to anyone saying my Mexico thing is speculation on what is said on this forum - you didnt read my post.

I stated it was it was based on information told to me by someone close to the family. I didn't think I'd have to go dropping names and that a simple address would be sufficient, but here we go.

I'd like to make a bit of a timeline to establish the Rico family's business, before Jr took over then after.

With that said if you choose to believe this will help you understand why it's not that far fetched Rico Jr guitars could be made by mexicans. 

To all those saying they cant be Made in Mexico and be labeled Made in USA, apparently USA has some law that states the product only has to be finished in USA to be labeled made in USA. This happens in many areas of production, not just guitars. Even some of the precious USA muscle cars were made about an hours drive from where I live here in Australia, shipped to USA. It's business.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


My source: Mal Stich. If you don't know who he is, he was one of Bernie Rico's best friends. He was the production manager at BCR for longer than most of you kids have been alive. He was Bernies #1 and has known Bernie Jr since he was a kid. 

Bit of quick history to help you understand. Bernie Sr never did building, he was a business man. He had his mexicans, both in USA and Mexico build everything. Mexicans are the best luthiers after all. Bernie Jr learns everything from Bernie Sr. You do the math. Now heres a few facts for you to ponder...

Heres a quote on the quality from the Mexico facility by Neal Moser, another one of Bernie Srs staff and good friends:



> Source "Neal Moser" roduction didn't start the one down South until 78 or 79 ish. Quality was too close to tell the difference.... These luthier's who worked in the BC South shop were trained by us, BC North, so they were very good Luthiers and the guitars coming up from them were excellent.We "BCR North" trained the BC South crew. .....The guitars were made the same way with wood that WE supplied to them and the guitars costs just as much from them as from OUR wood shop. There were NO "white guys" doing the "wood work" on BCR guitars either North or South. ALL BC Rich guitars were made by Mexicans.



Heres a quote from Mal Stich on the same matter, he mentions Lat. For those not in the know, Lat Combes was another staff member, the truck driver. It is he who did the transportation to and fro from USA to Mexico. On a side note, he also went behind Bernies back and got the Mexico crew to make his own line of guitars which were labeled LPC guitars, his initials. That failed cause no-one had heard of him!!:



> Source "Mal Stich" :Lat was instrumental in raising the production numbers to 100 guitars and basses a month. All the wood was cut to size in L.A. This, along with frets, fingerboards, inlay, glue, sandpaper, trussrods, etc. were taken to the sub-contrator in TJ by us in L.A.



Enrique and George Pasaye were in those days were running the business together. They were in TJ building in Mexico. The link I provided in my first post was to Geroges current business AFTER they'd had a falling out.

Mexico production continued until Class Axe took over BCR in the late 80.s So BCR had been building from the 70's and the 80's in mexico, then it stopped.

Come 1993, Rico family takes back BCR from class axe- 



> Source "Neal Moser": Bernie took the company back in '93 he tried to get the "old" wood shop back. However, most of them had already gotten new jobs and the others didn't want to relocate to Hesperia. So, he went to the guys who worked at our "BC South" shop.in '93 Bernie started having his guitars built by the guys left over from the BC South shop. Contrary to popular belief, there was NO wood shop in Hesperia. The guys would build the guitars down south in Tijuana and someone would pick them up and bring them to Hesperia. Then they were painted by Sean Ortiz, who worked for Bernie in the Hesperia shop. The guitars were assembled and set up there as well. All they did at BC South was build body blanks. They came to BC North ready for paint and assembly. Enrique and crew are located at 15 April Street, Pan-American Colony, Tijuana, Mexico.



Then come 1999 - 







> Source "Neal Moser" - After Bernie died and Jr. took over he continued to have the guitars built down south. Bernie Sr. and Jr. had them build at BC South by Mexican Luthiers. That was what his father did and there was no reason to do other wise. However, here's where the problems start. Bernie Sr. knew what a good guitar was built like and if one of the guitars coming from down south wasn't up to snuff, he would send it back. There were bad ones getting out of the shop at that time, even he was having trouble controlling the quality at that point. Anyway, Bernie Jr. did not have his fathers experience or temperament to control the down south wood shop, so he started getting inferior guitars. He tried to cut some corners, such as having truss rods made by a friend at a considerable savings. Unfortunately they broke very easily.



2000

HHI, INC. (Hanser Holdings) acquired B.C.Rich in January of 2000.
Bernie Jr is still in control of the custom shop.

Jr. runs the custom shop out of Hesperia (remember theres no WOOD SHOP in Hesperia, just where the finishing too place), but still subs the builds out to Mexico. HHI find's out about the Mexico arrangement and HHI fires Bernie Jr. (Surely theres more too this?? That info I cannot validate. That HHI firing info came from Tim Keyes, who at the time was Production manager at HHI owned BCR)

When Bernie Jr. ws gone HHI contracted Voodoo in Ohio as the new custom shop. There was reportedly a small run of about twenty guitars before that setup disolved. Voodoo was using cnc machines to rough out guitar blanks for the "handmade" series and this caused a lot of negative feedback.(According to Tim Keyes)

The official stance according to Tim Keyes is that after that small run they were then being built "in Hesperia by the same people who used to build them" HOWEVER - Neal Moser said he found out they were still being built by the same people who used to build them in Tijuana, Mexico. 

Take your pick whether to believe Tim Keyes or Neal Moser. Current staff whos jobs are on the line to hide truths Vs Ex staff/Rico family friends with nothing to loose by telling the truth.

Bernie Jr is only saying the same business lines his father said for years. Where do you think he learned from?


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## HighGain510 (Nov 8, 2011)

Wow.  

That's a LOT of info from sources I've actually heard of... just saying....


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## demonx (Nov 8, 2011)

I've been getting a few interesting PM's after posting this, but one I just got I wanted to repost my reply too, just to present my opinion on the matter.



name removed said:


> I know what you mean dude, they all want to believe their incoming, overpriced for USA, BRJ guitars are everything amazing. Not saying they are not either, it is just if MIM blanked, they should command less.



I dissagree.

The Mexicans are known to be fucking awesome builders. They can carve mojo with a knife that a cnc just doesnt understand.

I'm from Australia - so made in Mexico vs made in USA is a "who gives a fuck" battle for me as neither are Australian. Theres no difference to me. I'm only interested in fact.

If I had to choose between the guys in TJ handcarving me a guitar the old way or some guy in USA with a CNC, I'd pay more for the mexicans cause I know it'd be a better guitar.


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## HighGain510 (Nov 8, 2011)

Oops sorry for the double-post, see below!


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## HighGain510 (Nov 8, 2011)

demonx said:


> I've been getting a few interesting PM's after posting this, but one I just got I wanted to repost my reply too, just to present my opinion on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with part of what you're saying, but the part above is where I take issue. A guy who has a CNC who knows how to build a guitar is every bit as, if not more-so due to the accuracy of stuff like fretslots etc., awesome at building a guitar. It all comes down to hand-finishing of the guitar anyways, CNC doesn't spit out a completed guitar for you, feel free to search my previous threads for the long CNC thread by Ron Thorn that is an EXCELLENT read on that very topic. 

Thank-you for posting all your info with sources, it is very interesting to read with some facts behind it.


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## SpaceDock (Nov 8, 2011)

There is an article in the October issue of premier guitar that tells a very similar story to what demonx posted above. Rico sr finished guitars that were blank builds from a Mexican shop after the business took off. Know idea if jr does this too.


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## idunno (Nov 8, 2011)

Good read! I think it is totally possible. BUT well never know for sure, unless BRJ takes us on a tour of his USA shop and lets us watch from start to finish. 

Does he still post here? I recal he was a member for a little while.


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## elq (Nov 8, 2011)

SpaceDock said:


> There is an article in the October issue of premier guitar



B.C. Rich Beginnings - Premier Guitar

I really don't care where the guitars are made, but I do dislike the lack of communication and poor planning.

Also, as someone who owns many custom guitars (KxK, Suhr, Thorn, BRj), I've got to say that the BRj I own really doesn't make a great showing in the quality department. For the price it's good, but really not up to the hype I've seen/read.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 8, 2011)

idunno said:


> Good read! I think it is totally possible. BUT well never know for sure, unless BRJ takes us on a tour of his USA shop and lets us watch from start to finish.
> 
> Does he still post here? I recal he was a member for a little while.



He did but got kind of upset in the bfr thread and stopped.


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## Emperoff (Nov 9, 2011)

HighGain510 said:


> Seriously? Yes, it is ignorant. "Import" is used in MANY countries... like, oh I dunno, any country that receives goods NOT made in their country. The term is IMPORTING goods, it literally means purchasing something from another country and bringing it into your country that does not match the origin country of the item. Just because the person happens to be an American doesn't mean it is absolute that is it being said in a degrading way. Again, you make false assumptions with a biased view. The tone is very clear in your post.



Yeah, the tone was so clear that you were the only one who took it personally... 

I made a mistake following you, knowing your post history. This will make my last post on this thread so you can happily release your restrained anger on somebody else.


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## HighGain510 (Nov 9, 2011)

Emperoff said:


> Yeah, the tone was so clear that you were the only one who took it personally...
> 
> I made a mistake following you, knowing your post history. This will make my last post on this thread so you can happily release your restrained anger on somebody else.



I asked a few others, I wasn't the only one who took it that way. Your less-than-subtle personal jab at me, however, was taken loud and clear chief. I'll take all this "restrained anger" rofl somewhere else, feel free to leave your personal comments elsewhere too.


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## technomancer (Nov 9, 2011)

First everybody chill out as if I this degenerates into personal attacks people will get naps. Emperoff this includes EPIC generalizations about inhabitants of specific countries.

Emperoff: I think you miss the point that marketing something as Made in the USA (or wherever, but when it's done for marketing in the US it's usually Made in the US) that was made in another country is false advertising. Which is, to the best of my knowledge, illegal in most civilized countries: you're not allowed to misrepresent your product to try to increase your sales. Misrepresenting the origin of a product for marketing purposes would DEFINITELY be an issue, both moral and legal. 

I make no statement about where BRJs are or are not built since I have no first-hand knowledge, was just addressing some of the ridiculous crap I've seen expressed in this thread. Of course since after looking at the latest BRJ site he's no longer making explicit claims of Made in the USA guitars it may be a moot point.


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## noodles (Nov 9, 2011)

HighGain510 said:


> I agree with part of what you're saying, but the part above is where I take issue. A guy who has a CNC who knows how to build a guitar is every bit as, if not more-so due to the accuracy of stuff like fretslots etc., awesome at building a guitar. It all comes down to hand-finishing of the guitar anyways, CNC doesn't spit out a completed guitar for you, feel free to search my previous threads for the long CNC thread by Ron Thorn that is an EXCELLENT read on that very topic.



100% 

Cutting wood is cutting wood, and it doesn't matter what tool you use to do it, since the tool doesn't effect the tone of the finished instrument. The real source of tone is in the wood selection process, and it takes someone with years and years of experience to be able to pick out the quality raw materials, which have zero relation to the figuring of the actual wood--how many shitty sounding guitars with AAAAA tops have you played, compared to amazing sound plain janes?

I can absolutely appreciate the workmanship a fine, completely hand-carved instrument, but not necessarily from a tonal perspective. It's the same skill set it takes to make custom, hand carved furniture, and it is a very difficult, impressive one. However, when I play an amazing sounding guitar, I appreciate the guru in the woodshop who is accepting and rejecting raw planks of lumber, solely on the five senses at his disposal. That is literally the most important step in the process, and it is a dying art.


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## Randy (Nov 9, 2011)

I can't be bothered to read through this whole mess but it's worth mentioning that a lot of manufacturers have gotten away with saying "made in USA" as long as it's assembled there. Famously, I believe Levis or one of the bigger jeans companies was known for having the pants made completely overseas and all that they did in the US was sew the front and back together. Not sure if this is still the case and if it's legal to label this practice "Made in USA" but historically, this isn't uncommon.


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## elq (Nov 9, 2011)

noodles said:


> 100%
> 
> Cutting wood is cutting wood, and it doesn't matter what tool you use to do it, since the tool doesn't effect the tone of the finished instrument. The real source of tone is in the wood selection process, and it takes someone with years and years of experience to be able to pick out the quality raw materials, which have zero relation to the figuring of the actual wood--how many shitty sounding guitars with AAAAA tops have you played, compared to amazing sound plain janes?
> 
> I can absolutely appreciate the workmanship a fine, completely hand-carved instrument, but not necessarily from a tonal perspective. It's the same skill set it takes to make custom, hand carved furniture, and it is a very difficult, impressive one. However, when I play an amazing sounding guitar, I appreciate the guru in the woodshop who is accepting and rejecting raw planks of lumber, solely on the five senses at his disposal. That is literally the most important step in the process, and it is a dying art.



 


There's a fantastic quote re: this on another forum -



> The wood-matching thing is very well understood in the orchestral string world, and the acoustic guitar world too. I find it curious that it has not really carried over into the electric field. Of course, there are different parameters in the electric world, but the right "team" of materials...and by this I mean not the species, but the right examples of a species..it is all about vibration.
> 
> Among other things, it also means putting phase cancellations in the desired places. All in all, it allows the builder to predict the acoustical nature of the chassis and with lots of experience to be able to predict such long before the guitar is completed.





> About that stack of reject tops. Much of that stack was as great looking as Quilted Maple can get...stunning stunning looking material. I hated to reject that wood; but it just did not want to make music...so out it goes.


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## mikernaut (Nov 10, 2011)

Outsourcing is more rampant then alot of people want to believe . Funny side note- Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3- made by 5 studios! Sledgehammer, Infinity Ward, Treyarch, Raven and Neversoft.


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## zimbloth (Nov 10, 2011)

Due to my friendship and history with Bernie I have to obviously stay out of this debate going forward. I would just hope people keep an open mind and realize that there are a lot of people out there with agendas and/or vendettas. They're not always necessarily interested in being a benevolent "whistle-blower", but rather furthering their own agenda. One these "sources" reported to be a "good friend" of Bernie could not be any further from that. People in the industry have known for years (if not decades) that those two were at odds. 

It's my _opinion_ based on the knowledge I have that these accusations are not accurate, but obviously I can't prove that nor is it my place to speculate. I just wanted to throw that out there. I know sometimes there can be witch-hunts on forums over things (sometimes justifiably so, other times unfairly). So, that's my two cents anyway... 

EDIT -- PS: Having owned a LOT of older custom shop BC Riches as well as Rico Jr guitars, Moser's claim that BRJ didn't know how to build guitars and that his work was inferior is laughable. Every BRJ guitar I've owned blew away the custom shop BC Riches I've had previously. I don't know any BRJ owner who has also owned BC Rich guitars that does not share the same opinion. No disrespect to Bernie Sr but I believe 100% that BRJ builds a much nicer product. My Vixen 7-string has withstood the volatile temperature/humidity changes that come with living in New England better than any guitar I've ever owned.


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## Larrikin666 (Nov 10, 2011)

zimbloth said:


> Every BRJ guitar I've owned blew away the custom shop BC Riches I've had previously.



Having owned and played a ton of high end guitars over the years. I can say with confidence that my BRJ blows away ANY other guitar I've come across. That's based on my personal experience though. With a clear finish, there was no way to hide poor craftsmanship or bad wood. I was very worried about that initially. Every cut, line, and seam is flawless. The fretwork is exceptional. It's a beautiful instrument. It looks and feels like someone with major expertise put a lot of time and effort into it.


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## MetalDaze (Nov 10, 2011)

^^^ It's words like that which convinced me to place my order in the first place.

I am working on writing a new song though. The working title is "Waiting for my Rico" 

Hopefully this post counts as prior art, so no stealing


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## elq (Nov 10, 2011)

My BRj ranks below one of my Carvin's in terms of quality. Granted my first BRj was from a discounted run - so perhaps lower quality is expected...

But, the quality was good for the price - good enough for me to buy another discounted BRj. But I would NEVER buy a full priced one.


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## kmanick (Nov 10, 2011)

mine is one of the nicest guitars I've ever played in my life.  (and I've played plenty of high end very expensive guitars)
If there we better lines of communication with this "Company" I don't think there would be any of this foolishness
going on.


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## AySay (Nov 10, 2011)

OK I'm not sure I'm getting this....


This thread is supposed to be about "who" actually builds BRJs. What does that have to do with how good they play, or how amazing they look? There's a simple answer to this question. A photo of a guitar blank being worked on in the shop. I mean, if BRJ can send customers pics of near complete guitars in his workshop, why not a few of them at earlier stages in his shop?

This isn't about the quality of BRJs. Simply who makes them.


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## eaeolian (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, let's get back to the original topic instead of turning this thread into another discussion of the quality of BRJs, K?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 10, 2011)

Yup, was just wondering who makes them


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## Rap Hat (Nov 10, 2011)

So I was curious about this and did some more searching, and I found this forum post (e: not on this forum, just want to clarify) . I have no idea if it's accurate, but this guy is saying the woodshop is in San Diego.


Loudone said:


> 02-01-2008, 12:52 PM
> "I thought you were there? where is it? & hesperia is NOT the old BCR plant, hesperia was a paint / assemble plant only all of the woodwork was done at the "other" BCR plant outside the US."
> -
> As Bernie Jr. learned under his father as a luthier, the current luthiers that work for Bernie Jr. are also luthiers who learned the trade under Bernie Rico Sr... I went to visit Bernie's operation myself 3 weeks ago. Yes the guitars are painted and assembled in Hesperia.* The woodshop is in San Diego and they are totally handmade*... There are real guitar luthiers there, not someone operating a CNC machine... If you have any doubts, give Eric McKenna a call at Boogie Street guitars who has also seen this operation first hand. Eric wanted to see the operation first hand before making a commitment in becoming a dealer for Rico Jr. guitars.
> ...



E:vvv no problem - I prob should've linked it


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## geofreesun (Nov 10, 2011)

Rap Hat said:


> So I was curious about this and did some more searching, and I found this forum post (e: not on this forum, just want to clarify) . I have no idea if it's accurate, but this guy is saying the woodshop is in San Diego.



cool. if anyone cares, the above post is refering to JCFonline:
Anybody Visit Rico Jr this Year? [Archive] - JCF Online

sorry i googled... no offense.


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## SirMyghin (Nov 10, 2011)

elq said:


> My BRj ranks below one of my Carvin's in terms of quality. Granted my first BRj was from a discounted run - so perhaps lower quality is expected...
> 
> But, the quality was good for the price - good enough for me to buy another discounted BRj. But I would NEVER buy a full priced one.



That is a big ouch, considering how much out there that is above carvin, in the production market alone (G&L, Suhr, TA,PRS, Fender CS stuff, ETC). I had a similar experience with S7G though, so not surprising. I didn't keep it, however.

Edit: Sorry for makign this OT Post, I had not noticed page 5 at the time)


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## Emperoff (Nov 10, 2011)

That's some interesting info out there.


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