# What do you beleive happens when you die?



## Thrashmanzac

this subject has always been really interesting to me, i love hearing other peoples opinions on the subject.
my veiws on it are not very optimistic.
i beleive that when you die, you rot in the ground and become worm food. it may sound a tad rough, but i cant beleive that life is just one big test. i think when you die there is just nothing. although nothing is impossible to imagine.
so please, discuss


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## TimSE

u know when u sleep but dont have a dream
pretty much that


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## MrJack

You cease to exist, not physically of course but mentally. The closest thing to an afterlife that I believe in is that you still live in people's memories of you.


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## Thrashmanzac

TimSE said:


> u know when u sleep but dont have a dream
> pretty much that



i always have dreams 
but yeah thats what im thinking, time would fly, but there would be no time, but you wouldnt know that.



MrJack said:


> You cease to exist, not physically of course but mentally. The closest thing to an afterlife that I believe in is that you still live in people's memories of you.



ah man!
couldnt have put it better myself!
as you can read


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## hairychris

Worm food.

Hence make the most of being alive and not worry about what happens after you die. I imagine that immortality in any form would be _really_ fucking boring.


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## Thrashmanzac

^ yeah exatcly man, thats how i look at it. more motivation to live a good life


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## Naren

TimSE said:


> u know when u sleep but dont have a dream
> pretty much that



That's pretty much the way I've always thought of it.

Another comparison is that your brain is like a computer that will be completely erased and unusable if it is ever turned off. When you sleep, your brain is in "sleep mode" and still okay. But when you are not breathing, your heart isn't beating, and your blood isn't pumping, your computer is off, effectively erasing everything and making your hardware (body) useless.

Of course, this is something that can never be proven because once you're dead, you no longer exist, so you can't be like "Yeah, I was dead for a few days and there was this Satan dude." or "Yeah, I was dead for a year, but there really was nothing there."


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## Diogene303

Hi Guys, 

Read though this and wanted to ask a different question, why is it then that when you die / or the people you loved die that ....some people don't bother with that persons grave .....the reason i ask is so many times i've visited my mother grave and i look around and see all these's people's grave in a mess ...or people just don't bother i find the whole thing very sad ......

Oh trust me guys memory's never fade !


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## MrJack

Diogene303 said:


> Hi Guys,
> Read though this and wanted to ask a different question, why is it then that when you die / or the people you loved die that ....some people don't bother with that persons grave .....the reason i ask is so many times i've visited my mother grave and i look around and see all these's people's grave in a mess ...or people just don't bother i find the whole thing very sad ......



In some cases it's cause they don't live in the area and can't go there often. We usually go to my grandparents graves around 4 times a year and my uncle and cousins go there too.


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## forelander

Naren said:


> Of course, this is something that can never be proven because once you're dead, you no longer exist, so you can't be like "Yeah, I was dead for a few days and there was this Satan dude." or "Yeah, I was dead for a year, but there really was nothing there."



While true that it can't exactly be proven, people can certainly be dead for minutes and be revived. Someone I know has been clinically dead for a few minutes (not in an operation, after an electrical accident) but is currently doing just fine. I've never asked him if he 'saw' or 'remembered' anything but it's certainly interesting. 

I'd be especially curious to know if the 'visions' people report are just dreams that happen in the instant they're revived (I dunno if anyone's been knocked out or choked out but mates have said they swore they were asleep for hours as they had 'long' dreams but were only out a few seconds) or if they do have memory of something that can't have been a dream.


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## thesimo

it goes black and you cease to exist, your body is dead and assuming its a siwft death your brain stays alive in a state of ecstacy before it dies too, you would be in shock so you wouldnt be in pain, quite a happy death really (assuming a swift decapitation or the like).


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## Desecrated

You cease to exist. your body gets cremated, end of story.


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## TomAwesome

I believe that I don't know what happens! I personally find it difficult to believe without a doubt in either side without some kind of evidence. I'd like to think there's more to my existence than being an animated blob of carbon and water, but I'm not going to believe in something just because I want it to be true. I generally try to just live a good life as a good person without worrying too much about it. I'll find out when I get there.


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## Drew

I don't feel I've got a grasp on what happens to you when you _live_ yet - as such, I haven't bothered too much about what happens when you die. Obviously it'd be nice if there was some sort of afterlife, but worring about what happens to you when you die while you're in the middle of figuring out how to live sort of seems like a misplaced focus to me.


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## ohio_eric

You die and get a definitive answer on who's right about the afterlife.


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## Zepp88

I have no idea, and I won't speculate.


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## playstopause

Wow, THE question.

People can say whatever they think, humans been looking for that answer forever (and forever will).
Many people that have been clinically dead for a couple of minutes always talked about "seeing the light", "feeling relief, happiness, endless love...", etc.

I don't know. I think it's just your brain quickly "downloading", erasing everything as it is slowly turning off. That might be the feeling it gives while doing so. I don't think "seeing the light" really happens. Tough, i'd like some kind of event to happen...

I think that rooted deeeeeep down in our culture, we've always been brought to think there's an after life (ex.: the Bible / catholic religion, etc.) so there's a little left of that in our collective conscience. But these beliefs will slowly go away in the future.

I'd like to believe there is something after... It would be far more "romantic"...
But my rational side says it's just like falling asleep : bye-bye.


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## Zepp88

The "seeing the light" and the warmth and happiness thing might be a quick DMT trip, since that stuff is in our brains.


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## Thomas

Desecrated said:


> You cease to exist. your body gets cremated, end of story.


I am not religious, and I still have issues accepting that.

I am personally hoping for some kind of spiritual enlightenment in a realm that transcends the material world as we know it.


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## Naren

forelander said:


> While true that it can't exactly be proven, people can certainly be dead for minutes and be revived. Someone I know has been clinically dead for a few minutes (not in an operation, after an electrical accident) but is currently doing just fine. I've never asked him if he 'saw' or 'remembered' anything but it's certainly interesting.



Well, there is a certain length of time before brain death. After that point, the person is dead and the person CANNOT come back because their brain cells have physically died and are no longer there. It's like formatting a computer drive and then expecting to get the data back. It's dead.

Before brain death, I don't consider the person dead, even if the heart has stopped and breathing has stopped.



forelander said:


> I'd be especially curious to know if the 'visions' people report are just dreams that happen in the instant they're revived (I dunno if anyone's been knocked out or choked out but mates have said they swore they were asleep for hours as they had 'long' dreams but were only out a few seconds) or if they do have memory of something that can't have been a dream.



That's how dreams work. You can have a "dream"/"hallucination" that seems to last for hours or days, but really only lasted for 1-2 seconds. The truth is that ALL dreams are only a few seconds long, no matter how long they seem to last. The reason for this is that they are inside your mind. Trauma can cause hallucinations. You cannot guarantee that it couldn't have been a dream. If that were true, then someone who believed they saw Jesus when they "died" and someone who believed they saw Allah when they "died" and someone who saw "Buddha" when they died would all be right. I subscribe to "hallucination" in such a case.


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## Vince

I'm hopeful that Yoda was right.

_"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."_


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## ohio_eric

I revise my answer to this.


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## Naren

playstopause said:


> I don't know. I think it's just your brain quickly "downloading", erasing everything as it is slowly turning off. That might be the feeling it gives while doing so. I don't think "seeing the light" really happens. Tough, i'd like some kind of event to happen...



That is how it works.

For me, when my blood sugar gets lower and lower, my body starts shutting off functions that it deems unnecessary. It first gets rid of smell and taste. Then weakens perception and reason. Then it erases parts of my memories. I've woken up not knowing where I am or even who I am. Then it weakens and gets rid of touch. Then it weakens and gets rid of hearing. Then next is sight. And lastly it shuts off the most essential: your heart, lungs, brain. The hallucinations I've had with really low blood sugars SEEM real. They seem deathly real. If I was a religious person, I could say that I went to hell for a few seconds/minutes, but it seemed to last an eternity. Last year, I wandered around in this delusion that I could control reality and had the ability to change the cosmos. At the time, it made perfect sense, but when I came to and realized what had happened, it was absolutely ridiculous. And I've had dreams influenced by low blood sugars that literally seemed to last for thousands and thousands of years and that I can remember as if they had happened to me in real life yesterday even though they were just dreams that happens 1-2 years ago. I could go into crazier things I've thought, like where I was on a train to the netherworld that was passing through nothingness. This was not reality. This was my weakening brain's state of distress and illogicality.

I think it is this kind of near-death state that gives the body these hallucinations of seeing light and being in a tunnel. I know the "tunnel" feeling. I saw no light, but I've been in the tunnel.

I'm not saying that there is definitely no afterlife. There may be and I absolutely hope there is. I doubt it. But what I am saying is that these "near-death experiences" are not proof or even suggestions to proove life after death.


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## st2012

I try to live life as fully as I can and try to do right by other people. If there is an after-life I'd like to think that I lived the right way. But if there's not an after-life then I dont think that would change much as far as how I live and treat others. Logic tells me that this life is all I have but I kinda hope I'm wrong.


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## Naren

^Same here. It would be awesome to find out there is an afterlife after I die, but I'm not counting on it. I try to live as a good person because I think it's what I should do. Some people say that "Well, if there's no God, then there is no right and wrong." But I disagree. I think there is right and wrong, regardless of whether there is a God or not. And I try to live the way I think is right.


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## 7 Strings of Hate

i believe there is nothing, its the same as before you were born. you remember nothing about it, well, i think thats what death is like, it sounds sad, but its not really.

its almost reassuring to believe when you die nothing happens because i dont know if i could make it through eternity with some of the assholes around out there


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## Desecrated

A funny thing a monk once said to me, "it doesn't matter if you believe that you'll go to heaven, get reborn or just stop to exist, your existence as you know it now will come to an end, and you might as well concentrate on the existence you have right now. And if we happen to get to another existence after this, we can concentrate on that then"


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## Drew

Desecrated said:


> A funny think a monk once said to me, "it doesn't matter if you believe that you'll go to heaven, get reborn or just stop to exist, your existence as you know it now will come to an end, and you might as well concentrate on the existence you have right now. And if we happen to get to another existence after this, we can concentrate on that then"



That's not funny, that's very intelligent.


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## Ze Kink

Zepp88 said:


> The "seeing the light" and the warmth and happiness thing might be a quick DMT trip, since that stuff is in our brains.



Good point actually, I've never thought about that. I already knew that many people believe it makes us see dreams. Also, the machine elves -stuff is pretty freaky, but that's offtopic.

The only thing I'm sure of is, that after death, our persona ceases to exist. It might be born into some other being or join something somewhere, but it's not like we would know, because we're more a result of things happening to us through our lives. Also, I believe our consciousness is "pure" so it doesn't hold any information, therefore it's not a "soul". We are our brains, so to speak.

Yes, my view is pretty much similar to Buddhism's Samsara (and Anatta too), it just has always made sense to me.


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## thesimo

the seeing the light thing is just your brain realising its curiosity about hearing other people seeing it. Its not god coming to get you, its not you going to heaven its your subconscious doing what it thinks should in its dying moments. Whatever gives the person a happy death.

If you killed a bunch of people who never heard of such a concept i doubt any of them would mention it.


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## Metal Ken

My take on it? I'll worry about it when i get there. I think there might be something there, but im not getting too uppity about it.


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## Brendan G

I'm with most people, I for the most part believe there is nothing (I was/am being raised Catholic so that doubt will be in my head forever) I like the idea of an end, it comforts me in a way, I don't want to live forever whether it be physically or spiritually.


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## Xaios

I believe when I die, I'll find my spirit in a graveyard, and everything will be a glowy kind of blue-gray. I will then have the option of having the Spirit Healer resurrect me with a huge but temporary debuff to my stats, or I can walk to my corpse and resurrect myself with partial health and mana.


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## Sindwulf

All I know is I am going to be pushing up giant rocks up a mountain after I'm dead.


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## stuh84

I am of the worm food/burnt to a crisp view, any spirituality and anything like that never sat right with me.


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## Thrashmanzac

Desecrated said:


> You cease to exist. your body gets cremated, end of story.



my thoughts exactly


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## All_¥our_Bass

I'd like to think there is an afterlife, but I doubt it.
I'll find out when I get there, so I'll just focus on this life for now and live a good life.


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## budda

i dunno.


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## Zak1233

Naren said:


> That is how it works.
> 
> For me, when my blood sugar gets lower and lower, my body starts shutting off functions that it deems unnecessary.



Are you diabetic? or hypoglycemic? just curious...
your views are very interesting about after life and make alot of sense

as for myself, i belive there may very well be something there but who actually knows, but this "i see the light" shit is just dumb IMO, cos i've seen that "light" people talk about once when i passed out from inhailing helium about 4 years ago(to make my voice go that squeeky way lol ) i inhailed too much in a short space of time and i collapsed and went into convultions (1 step away from dying the doctor said) so this light thing just dosnt cut it for me, which is why i find what naren says very interesting, cos it makes a hell of a lot of sense

and as for this...



Desecrated said:


> "it doesn't matter if you believe that you'll go to heaven, get reborn or just stop to exist, your existence as you know it now will come to an end, and you might as well concentrate on the existence you have right now. And if we happen to get to another existence after this, we can concentrate on that then"



if i could give that guy rep i would  seems like a very smart and realistic answer.

I think people waste too much time pondering about what they need to do to make it to the afterlife and to not burn in hell instead of just being a good person and enjoying the life that you have, since it may be the only one you ever will have. But thats just my


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## Se7enMeister

this subject is VERY hard for me to talk about, but i believe that there is something more than this one life. i have studied physics, and the whole talk of extra dimensions and the big bang lead me to believe there is something more. like why does everything exist? where did it come from? does it have to exist? who first moved it? i think it is questions like these that caused people like buddah to find answers, not questions like "what happens when we die" or is there a god


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## Thrashmanzac

yeah im studying physic atm too, and it does make you question pretty much everything, its great like that. it would be cool if someone found the answer to everything, but i doubt that will ever happen.


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## Se7enMeister

Thrashmanzac said:


> yeah im studying physic atm too, and it does make you question pretty much everything, its great like that. it would be cool if someone found the answer to everything, but i doubt that will ever happen.



have you ever heard any thing about "The Prime Mover"? it is the question on what moved the first particals to create energy


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## Thrashmanzac

nah i havnt actually, any links or anything on some info? i love reading about shit like that


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## Lucky Seven

I'm not christian, but this thread is why my most read book is Kierkegaard's "Sickness Unto Death".


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## Se7enMeister

Thrashmanzac said:


> nah i havnt actually, any links or anything on some info? i love reading about shit like that



it just talks about what got the first elements of matter to move and create the universe, anything by Michio Kaku is a great read he also get real deep asking questions like "Why does the universe exits? i mean it doesn't have to, and what was here before the big bang"? i suggest any thing by him


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## Naren

Zak1233 said:


> Are you diabetic? or hypoglycemic? just curious...
> your views are very interesting about after life and make alot of sense
> 
> as for myself, i belive there may very well be something there but who actually knows, but this "i see the light" shit is just dumb IMO, cos i've seen that "light" people talk about once when i passed out from inhailing helium about 4 years ago(to make my voice go that squeeky way lol ) i inhailed too much in a short space of time and i collapsed and went into convultions (1 step away from dying the doctor said) so this light thing just dosnt cut it for me, which is why i find what naren says very interesting, cos it makes a hell of a lot of sense
> 
> and as for this...



Diabetic. I've had my blood sugar below 10 before (normal is around 110 or so). It's freaky how things seem at those times (which are very very rare, mind you). 

Anyway, something so cliche as "the light at the end of the tunnel" strikes me as the same kind of thing as "I was abducted by little green men and probed on an alien space ship in Area 51."


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## Jongpil Yun

Hm... that would be the Onset of Putrefaction.

And, quoting myself here:



Me said:


> OK, well that's so far off from what I thought you were talking about from the context of your post... The Origin of the Species explains where humans came from, which is what I thought you were talking about. If you're talking about the "why something rather than nothing?" question, I fail to see how religion has anything (real) to say on the matter.
> 
> To quote Frank Wilczek, "The answer to the ancient question 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' would then be that 'nothing' is unstable." That is to say, "nothing" has a tendency to collapse into a positive+negative energy system with a net energy of zero. To use an analogy, there are infinitely more ways for two numbers to sum to zero than to actually be zero themselves.
> 
> ...
> 
> (noodles: Religion lacks the science to explain the universe, and science lacks the desire to ponder the creation of the matter that Einstein told us cannot be created or destroyed.)
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Well, no, the point is that because the total amount of energy in the universe appears to be zero, thermodynamic conservation is maintained.


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## Thrashmanzac

> it just talks about what got the first elements of matter to move and create the universe, anything by Michio Kaku is a great read he also get real deep asking questions like "Why does the universe exits? i mean it doesn't have to, and what was here before the big bang"? i suggest any thing by him


thanks heaps mate


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## petereanima

personally, i dont think about it very often - i used to when i was younger, but sometime back then came the point when i thought "why should i think about it? i will know it early enough."

but on the other hand - i catched myself very often to think about it when i worked for the ambulance, talking to regular patients with real aweful lifehistory...like for example a girl, 1 or 2 years younger than me - having this extremely rare skin-disease since birth and its getting worse and worse...if you touch her skin, it breaks, and it will never heal, you can just imagine how disfigured she got form time to time...she was fighting that since forever, and meanwhile it got so worse that they had to take off one leg and one hand...and if thats not enough - she then got cancer too...

you know, i then found myslef thinking about "this girl is at my age, and her whole life she did nothing but fighting against this disease, but no matter what she will do - the disease will win at the end. i hope that there is an afterlife and that justice happens to her then."


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## Zak1233

Naren said:


> Diabetic. I've had my blood sugar below 10 before (normal is around 110 or so). It's freaky how things seem at those times (which are very very rare, mind you).
> 
> Anyway, something so cliche as "the light at the end of the tunnel" strikes me as the same kind of thing as "I was abducted by little green men and probed on an alien space ship in Area 51."



wow man, below 10 is like, dead  lol
cos im in europe we use mmols or w/e its called lol lowest mines been was 0.8, adn i was out at that time so i had to go to a shop quick lol i gta try keep mine in between 4.0 - 10.0, do you just not feel yourself getting low is that how you dont realise it until your sooo low like below 10 :/ ???
that shit man
and yah as for the light thing, its just superstisious shit imo


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## SevenDeadly

A secular explanation of the afterlife

Now, I'm not a doctor and I only have my journalism skills to research things pretty well.

First the medical brief. When oxygen supply to the brain is cut off, i.e. you're dead, the brain can stay active for as long as 40 hours, showing activity on an ECG.

Now, bear with me. When you sleep, you can go through as many as 4 REM cycles in an 8 hour period. This allows for a multitude of dreams, most of which we never remember or are even concious of. Now, how many times have you fallen asleep and found yourself wrapped up in a dream that seems to last hours, days, weeks, even years? Then you wake only to find you've only been asleep for ten minutes.

Most claim eternity is a drop in an ocean of time, that we cannot grasp eternity, but regardless of your religion, I think we all experience an afterlife because of this connection between dreams and death. If your brains stays active for as long as 40 hours after all other motor functions have ceased, couldn't that relatively short amount of real time be "an eternity" in your still alive brain? (or your soul if you will)

Now the fun part, heaven and hell

If your brain is your soul and your pious and caring, that is the environment in which you will inhabit during your afterlife. If you are uncaring and an asshole, your brain will reflect your attitudes into your afterlife.


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## DrakkarTyrannis

Eh..Rarely do I qoute the bible, but I feel the same way it does (the crowd gasps in horror). The dead know nothing. That's it. When you die it's like sleep, you don't go to heaven to play a concert with Jimi Hendrix or to Hell to become the 6th Spice Girl or whatever the hell it is people think happens. You as the mental entity has ceased to be. I of course could be wrong, I've never died so I can't say, but I guess I'll find out eventually. But I do believe death isn't the ominous demon people make it to be. There are things worse than death...trust me.

You don't become a guardian for some idiot on earth
You don't get 100 virgins
You don't roaming places, "haunting" them
You don't come back as something else

You rot in a box in the ground, spent and done. I think all the other theories about death were invented because people are scared of death. It makes you feel better about your inevitable demise if you think something special will happen after you can no longer enjoy the things in life you're afraid to lose. The idea that there's nothing scares the hell out of people. Fear you say? Well then, enter religion.....


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## Naren

Zak1233 said:


> wow man, below 10 is like, dead  lol
> cos im in europe we use mmols or w/e its called lol lowest mines been was 0.8, adn i was out at that time so i had to go to a shop quick lol i gta try keep mine in between 4.0 - 10.0, do you just not feel yourself getting low is that how you dont realise it until your sooo low like below 10 :/ ???
> that shit man
> and yah as for the light thing, its just superstisious shit imo



Are you serious? In North America, Asia, and Australia (and Europe as well, I assumed), we use "blood sugar." Normal is between 80 and 140. Low is anything below that and high is anything above that. The highest I've ever had my blood sugar was around 700. The lowest was around 10.

OH, I feel it when it's low. I definitely definitely feel it. But sometimes by that time, it's already too late and I'm kind of out of it. It's especially useless if it gets that when when you're sleeping. I can usually tell my blood sugar just by how I feel. I'll go, "I'll bet my blood sugar is about 50" and I check it and it's 55. Or I'll go "I bet my blood sugar is around 320 or so" and I check it and it's 345. There are a few times where my eyes nearly pop out of my sockets, but yeah...


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## Zak1233

Naren said:


> Are you serious? In North America, Asia, and Australia (and Europe as well, I assumed), we use "blood sugar." Normal is between 80 and 140. Low is anything below that and high is anything above that. The highest I've ever had my blood sugar was around 700. The lowest was around 10.
> 
> OH, I feel it when it's low. I definitely definitely feel it. But sometimes by that time, it's already too late and I'm kind of out of it. It's especially useless if it gets that when when you're sleeping. I can usually tell my blood sugar just by how I feel. I'll go, "I'll bet my blood sugar is about 50" and I check it and it's 55. Or I'll go "I bet my blood sugar is around 320 or so" and I check it and it's 345. There are a few times where my eyes nearly pop out of my sockets, but yeah...




over here we use mmol/L tho maybe its just the UK but i always thought it was europe  i dunno tbh but i knew for a fact that america etc didnt use mmol/L
and thats shit how you get like that man :/ do you use injections or an insulin pump?
lol sorry for goin off topic just curious


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## jaxadam

SevenDeadly said:


> A secular explanation of the afterlife
> 
> Now, I'm not a doctor and I only have my journalism skills to research things pretty well.
> 
> First the medical brief. When oxygen supply to the brain is cut off, i.e. you're dead, the brain can stay active for as long as 40 hours, showing activity on an ECG.
> 
> Now, bear with me. When you sleep, you can go through as many as 4 REM cycles in an 8 hour period. This allows for a multitude of dreams, most of which we never remember or are even concious of. Now, how many times have you fallen asleep and found yourself wrapped up in a dream that seems to last hours, days, weeks, even years? Then you wake only to find you've only been asleep for ten minutes.
> 
> Most claim eternity is a drop in an ocean of time, that we cannot grasp eternity, but regardless of your religion, I think we all experience an afterlife because of this connection between dreams and death. If your brains stays active for as long as 40 hours after all other motor functions have ceased, couldn't that relatively short amount of real time be "an eternity" in your still alive brain? (or your soul if you will)
> 
> Now the fun part, heaven and hell
> 
> If your brain is your soul and your pious and caring, that is the environment in which you will inhabit during your afterlife. If you are uncaring and an asshole, your brain will reflect your attitudes into your afterlife.



Very well put. This very exact thing has crossed my mind much more than once, but you said it a lot better than me.


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## Jongpil Yun

SevenDeadly said:


> First the medical brief. When oxygen supply to the brain is cut off, i.e. you're dead, the brain can stay active for as long as 40 hours, showing activity on an ECG.



Uh, no. You realize your brain uses about 20% of your body's oxygen, right? You stop breathing. You pass out in about three minutes. Consciousness is the FIRST thing to go. Control of vital functions is last. Assuming you don't start breathing again (and we will, because you're dead), you will never regain consciousness as your brain dies.



> Now, bear with me. When you sleep, you can go through as many as 4 REM cycles in an 8 hour period. This allows for a multitude of dreams, most of which we never remember or are even concious of. Now, how many times have you fallen asleep and found yourself wrapped up in a dream that seems to last hours, days, weeks, even years? Then you wake only to find you've only been asleep for ten minutes.



Dreams happen in real time. It's the fact that they're chaotic and your recollection of them is fuzzy that leads to the perception of a long period of time.

Besides that, being unconscious is NOT the same as dreaming. Basically, when you're awake, all the parts of your brain are active, when you're sleeping, parts shut down (reality checking center), and one other notable part kicks in (the locus of your brain that paralyzes your body during REM sleep). When you've been knocked out and your brain is starving of oxygen, it is not the same as REM sleep -- the parts of your brain that would be generating the dream imagery are off.



> Most claim eternity is a drop in an ocean of time, that we cannot grasp eternity, but regardless of your religion, I think we all experience an afterlife because of this connection between dreams and death. If your brains stays active for as long as 40 hours after all other motor functions have ceased, couldn't that relatively short amount of real time be "an eternity" in your still alive brain? (or your soul if you will)



Now, you would learn most of the stuff above in a CPR class. I know you're not a doctor, but a CPR class would be a good thing to take regardless. You can also take a trip to the nursing home and see how quickly massive brain damage sets in.

We know people hallucinate when the die, but the "white tunnel" doesn't match your descriptions either. The QuackCast has a great podcast on Near Death Experiences as well.


----------



## auxioluck

DMT. Read about it.

*Leaves thread*


----------



## Naren

Zak1233 said:


> over here we use mmol/L tho maybe its just the UK but i always thought it was europe  i dunno tbh but i knew for a fact that america etc didnt use mmol/L
> and thats shit how you get like that man :/ do you use injections or an insulin pump?
> lol sorry for goin off topic just curious



Injections. I would never use that fucking pump. 



Jongpil Yun said:


> Dreams happen in real time. It's the fact that they're chaotic and your recollection of them is fuzzy that leads to the perception of a long period of time.
> 
> Besides that, being unconscious is NOT the same as dreaming. Basically, when you're awake, all the parts of your brain are active, when you're sleeping, parts shut down (reality checking center), and one other notable part kicks in (the locus of your brain that paralyzes your body during REM sleep). When you've been knocked out and your brain is starving of oxygen, it is not the same as REM sleep -- the parts of your brain that would be generating the dream imagery are off.



I know for a fact that that's not true. I've read about this before and I've experienced it myself.

You might say "they're chaotic and your recollection of them is fuzzy," but if they "took place in real time," then I wouldn't be able to remember dreams with crystal clear clarity that seemed to last for ridiculous periods of time. Last week, my girlfriend fell asleep on my bed. She couldn't have been asleep for more than 20 seconds, because I woke her up almost immediately after she closed her eyes, but when I woke her up, she continued to tell me the dream she had just had for the next 10 minutes. Within a period of 10-20 seconds, she had had a very complicated and detailed dream with tons of characters that seemed to last for a several days. Did it really last for several days? No. But the progression of her dream was no going in real time.

You are correct about being unconscious not being like REM sleep. I also don't think SevenDeadly's "Eternal Dream" idea makes much sense...


----------



## JBroll

JJ finds out what your natural hair color is.

Jeff


----------



## TomAwesome




----------



## Zak1233

Naren said:


> Injections. I would never use that fucking pump.



i see, why the hate for the pump?  i used to be on injections for a year but have been on the pump for 5 years now and i gotta say its fantastic, it makes you feel "free" but it might just be because of the tiem i got put onto the pump i wasnt likin how the injections restricted me, but if you've gotten into the habit of injections you'd probs never want to change


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Anonymous neg-repper said:


> Once again you failed to read and understand what you have quoted. Contrary to your claims you are one of the most religious people here and the way you try to force your beliefs on others, twist others words and ignore the things they say is annoyin



Linked to http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lo...leive-happens-when-you-die-2.html#post1199802

Now, really? I take issue with all three of those claims.

1) I directly addressed what was said. I may be wrong about dreams happening in real time (not so sure now, unable to find anything concrete on time perception while dreaming either way), but the factual claims such as your brain being active for up to 40 hours after death is just plain wrong.

2) I'm not religious in any sense. I take nothing on dogma, and do not presume supernaturalism. My morality is based entirely on act utilitarianism.

3) I'm not forcing my "belief" on you. Reality is impinging on what you said for me.


----------



## JBroll

I may disagree with JP on a lot of things, but I know 'religious' is not among the words I could hope to describe him with - unless you consider 'acting rationally and thinking logically' to be a religion.

Jeff


----------



## Naren

JY being "one of the most religious people here" strikes me as very strange as well. What religion would that be and how would he be religious? In just about every thread regarding religion he's posted in, he seems to be pretty anti-religion. Although his information is not always correct (it usually is, though), he always tries to respond with logic and science instead of with "blind faith" or anything else associated with a religion.

JY's only real problem is that sometimes he is a little too strong in the way he says things. But 



Zak1233 said:


> i see, why the hate for the pump?  i used to be on injections for a year but have been on the pump for 5 years now and i gotta say its fantastic, it makes you feel "free" but it might just be because of the tiem i got put onto the pump i wasnt likin how the injections restricted me, but if you've gotten into the habit of injections you'd probs never want to change



"Free" is the exact opposite of how I would describe the pump. I feel enslaved to it. You can't do sports. You can't be athletic. In fact, I hate the idea of having something attached to you like that. I just really don't like it. But I know some people who like it, such as my aunt.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Naren said:


> JY's only real problem is that sometimes he is a little too strong in the way he says things. But



That's the "internet tough guy" thing. Except, from what I understand, I'm an elitist asshole in real life too.


----------



## JBroll

A man after my own heart.

Jeff


----------



## Joe Neal

My beliefs resemble the OP, except i look at life as more of a precious gift than test.


----------



## wes225

A.. Heaven of some sort
B. Reincarnation?
C. Dead.


----------



## Thrashmanzac

C.


----------



## Harry

As much as I would like to think "I'll just think about my existence now and not worry about what happens after death", I'm just way too much of a thinker to not think about it all.
There has been some pretty good points raised here, and I'll re-read over them to get a better perspective of things.


----------



## DanD

72 virgins, kingdom of endless riches, coming back as something greater... 

Hmm... could lust, greed, and pride be the prime motives here? 

Oh, and don't forget fear as well. 
Who wants to get scorched and tortured in an S&M demon pit for eternity? 

Other than those, how could there possibly be a reason to go on still? 
There isn't one for the life we're currently in to begin with.


----------



## rectifryer

This is why walt disney froze his head.


If a computer could download everything from your mind and emulate you in a cyborg, would it have your soul? Would you then be "immortal"?


----------



## Naren

rectifryer said:


> This is why walt disney froze his head.
> 
> 
> If a computer could download everything from your mind and emulate you in a cyborg, would it have your soul? Would you then be "immortal"?



No. Because nothing lasts forever. The average lifespan of a human being is around 75 years old. Let's assume that you got put into an insanely advanced cyborg. How long could you live? Currently computers generally only last a few years, maybe 4-5 before their hardware slows down so much that they become only useless... but let's ignore that. And let's assume that you keep up regular maintenance for replacing your batteries and getting upgrades. How long could you live? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? Let's get a little more insane. 1000 YEARS!? How about 10,000 years? Well, seeing as 10,000 years ago, mankind was incredibly primitive, living another 10,000 years is pretty crazy. How about 100,000 years? That's way beyond pre-history. 1,000,000 years? 1,000,000,000 years?! Before humans even existed. Maybe go into the future where humans are extinct.

Let's go into the future further. 10,000,000,000 years? That's older than the universe. Can a piece of metal and wires survive for that long, when it's longer than the lifespan of a star from birth to death?

Even if it were theoretically possible (which it isn't), eternity and immortality are not practical concepts. Nothing lasts forever and thus nothing can be immortal.


----------



## rectifryer

Naren said:


> No. Because nothing lasts forever. The average lifespan of a human being is around 75 years old. Let's assume that you got put into an insanely advanced cyborg. How long could you live? Currently computers generally only last a few years, maybe 4-5 before their hardware slows down so much that they become only useless... but let's ignore that. And let's assume that you keep up regular maintenance for replacing your batteries and getting upgrades. How long could you live? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? Let's get a little more insane. 1000 YEARS!? How about 10,000 years? Well, seeing as 10,000 years ago, mankind was incredibly primitive, living another 10,000 years is pretty crazy. How about 100,000 years? That's way beyond pre-history. 1,000,000 years? 1,000,000,000 years?! Before humans even existed. Maybe go into the future where humans are extinct.
> 
> Let's go into the future further. 10,000,000,000 years? That's older than the universe. Can a piece of metal and wires survive for that long, when it's longer than the lifespan of a star from birth to death?
> 
> Even if it were theoretically possible (which it isn't), eternity and immortality are not practical concepts. Nothing lasts forever and thus nothing can be immortal.



You cant deny the existence of eternity. Thats the issue with some theories, they try to find a beginning. But then they dont explain what started that "beginning". Eternity is widely accepted, religious or not. 

Infinity, its a quantity in physics. Its the gateway from mass to energy. Eternity is the human perception of infinity from the first 4 dimensions of string theory.


----------



## JBroll

rectifryer said:


> Its the gateway from mass to energy.



Erm, no, that's 9*(10^16)*(m^2)*(s^-2). Infinity is a concept in mathematics, and while you complain about 'some theories' you turn around and cite something that's not even a theory as much as an amusing mathematical model. Eternity is not widely accepted until it is proven, and as it stands right now it isn't.

Jeff


----------



## spsb

I personaly think more about were i was before i have born...


----------



## daybean




----------



## Naren

rectifryer said:


> You cant deny the existence of eternity. Thats the issue with some theories, they try to find a beginning. But then they dont explain what started that "beginning". Eternity is widely accepted, religious or not.
> 
> Infinity, its a quantity in physics. Its the gateway from mass to energy. Eternity is the human perception of infinity from the first 4 dimensions of string theory.



I never denied the existence of "eternity" as a concept. I denied the existence of anything being eternal.

If you can name one thing that is eternal, then I will agree with you. And don't give me something abstract like "the universe" or "existence." Name a being or object that is eternal. 

Your eternal robot conscienceness idea is very very unscientific and unrealistic. If you look at it logically, no living being can be eternal unless you bring up non-scientific ideas such as one's "spirit" which cannot be dealt with by science.


----------



## Daemoniac

I believe there is nothing. But id like to. To bbe honest, it actually scares me more than anything i can think of. And not just a 'oh thats scary' kind of fear, its that kind that stays in your heart and brings you down so far its horrible.

The thought of becoming nothing, of being nothing, and of just passing scares the absolute fucking shit out of me. And theres nothing i can do about it. 

Maybe its a sign that im not as happy as i should be in life at the moment, maybe not, i dont know. But i feel terrified.


----------



## Vision

In Chinese medicine, the heart is your soul... not your brain. Your brain is just the computer you use to execute your hearts desire. With that being said, it would be an absolute fucking waste if we died and that was it. It would be a cruel joke of the cosmos to learn/be/do/have and then have your existence erased the moment you die.

Of course, every post here is speculation so here goes: My running theory is that the only thing that binds us all together - all living things together - is water. I think this is why physical touch is so important, and why the "changing of fluids" (bow-chicka-wow-wow) is so meaningful, etc and so on. When we die, do we (our souls) evaporate back into "life" to be lifegivers to the rest of humanity? Are we part of a water collective and just taking a break to "live" and then we all go back?

All I know is that it sucks to get rained on....


----------



## S-O

I believe I become a pile of matter that once was me. Often this pile is called a corpse.

In a sort of spiritual way, I see this as returning to the matter of the universe. I don't see it as a way of living, or as a religion. So I do think the universe in the sense of there will always be one is eternal, unless moments before the big bang, the universe ceases to exist. Also, in this sense, everything comes together in the end, just as it began.

Going along with this, since I think we are all apart of the same matter, that we ought to be a bit more kind to each other. I don't think anything happens to you if you aren't kind, I just think you are an asshole, and perhaps when all the matter is reorganized, the next 'you' will be kinder, or end up being the matter that makes up a rock.

Looking back, I can see how reincarnation makes sense to some people. I just don't think there is a god. Though, as apparent in my mini-rant, I do think we all came from the same 'thing'.

I have tried religion, really did. Right now I am trying to explore all that eastern shit  Current project: Buddhism.


----------



## code_red

I really don't know. I dreamed about my mom a few times since she died. (June 4, 2008) The last dream she was in a big, very well lit room, with people gathered in groups all talking to each other. I picked her out from a distance, she saw me too. We went to each other and gave big hugs. She smelled and dressed exactly like I remembered as a kid. I asked her how she was doing. "I'm alright." That was pretty much it. She was sick nearly all my life. I had a dream 2 weeks before she diied. She way lying in a hospital bed and said "I'm too tired." My mom hadn't spoke for years before that, so it was nice and scary at the same time. So, I don't know what happens when you die. But, I believe the dead can contact you in your dreams. I'm looking forward to the next one.


----------



## BlindingLight7

i think im here for now, so live it up, cuase i have no what'll happen when i die, i just hope i get to meet people i never got to


----------



## sakeido

Jongpil Yun said:


> 2) I'm not religious in any sense. I take nothing on dogma, and do not presume supernaturalism. My morality is based entirely on act utilitarianism.



That's rather hedonistic of you, and I would have thought that you of all people would understand that one approach is never the best fit for all situations.



Jongpil Yun said:


> Dreams happen in real time. It's the fact that they're chaotic and your recollection of them is fuzzy that leads to the perception of a long period of time.



The key word there is perception. Perception is *everything*. I had a dream this morning that felt like hours, but was actually no more than seven minutes since the whole thing happened between my alarm going off, me hitting the snooze button, and the alarm going off again seven minutes later.

As far as life after death, you'll be dead. Either something will be there, or you will be dead and therefore can't be bothered about anything. I don't give it much thought.


----------



## heavy7-665




----------



## GazPots

Perhaps you wake up as a some randomly assigned creature obviously with no memory of previous life.

Could be a fuck off terrifying spider. Or a shitty sloth. 




Or nothing happens at all. I don't believe in religion or any sort of afterlife. 


It does suck that the only time you find out and you can't tell nobody.


----------



## SteveDendura

We shall be eaten by worms.

I think I'll be cremated and my ashes spread on whole grain toast!


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

I want to be eaten at my funeral by loved ones.


----------



## Mogwaii

I had this theory where when you die, you instantly take control of yourself from an alternate reality and keep living your life until that you dies and you take control of yourself in yet another reality.


----------



## Naren

Mogwaii said:


> I had this theory where when you die, you instantly take control of yourself from an alternate reality and keep living your life until that you dies and you take control of yourself in yet another reality.



So, in other words, a different kind of eternal hell?


----------



## JBroll

Anyone else ever see Groundhog Day and wonder how many sex crimes Bill Murray committed just because he knew he could get away with them? Had to get lonely somewhere in there...

Jeff


----------



## The Dark Wolf

JBroll said:


> Anyone else ever see Groundhog Day and wonder how many sex crimes Bill Murray committed just because he knew he could get away with them? Had to get lonely somewhere in there...
> 
> Jeff



Heh. 

Shows how your mind works, Jeff.

As an aside, when you anonymously poll males, and ask them if they would commit a sex crime, the numbers get WAY higher if you postulate that the male can get away and no one will ever know.


----------



## Thrashmanzac

JBroll said:


> Anyone else ever see Groundhog Day and wonder how many sex crimes Bill Murray committed just because he knew he could get away with them? Had to get lonely somewhere in there...
> 
> Jeff




if i had not forgotten how, that would so be in my sig!


----------



## sakeido

Mogwaii said:


> I had this theory where when you die, you instantly take control of yourself from an alternate reality and keep living your life until that you dies and you take control of yourself in yet another reality.



Personally, I would prefer a game over screen and then the ability to reload from a different save point.


----------



## ILdÐÆMcº³

The Dark Wolf said:


> Heh.
> 
> Shows how your mind works, Jeff.
> 
> As an aside, when you anonymously poll males, and ask them if they would commit a sex crime, the numbers get WAY higher if you postulate that the male can get away and no one will ever know.



I think that goes for any crime though. Also take into consideration rape is a successful reproductive strategy for many animals. Not saying it's right but biologically it makes sense. To take things way off on a tangent.


----------



## Cancer

What?!?!??!??! No 72 virgins.....lame. Ahh man , the universe sucks. IMO, our lives are defined by the memories created during our lifetime, and the our brains' capacity to interpret them into a meaningful way. Lose both, and life ends ...essentially. I've often wondered what would happened if I could make a "bit for bit" copy of my own brain and download it into a perfect clone. Would I wake up in a perfect clone, or would I die, yet the clone pick where I left off, and would be indistinguishable to those outside my body.

Somehow, I feel it may be the first.


----------



## CatPancakes

Naren said:


> That's pretty much the way I've always thought of it.
> 
> Another comparison is that your brain is like a computer that will be completely erased and unusable if it is ever turned off. When you sleep, your brain is in "sleep mode" and still okay. But when you are not breathing, your heart isn't beating, and your blood isn't pumping, your computer is off, effectively erasing everything and making your hardware (body) useless.
> 
> Of course, this is something that can never be proven because once you're dead, you no longer exist, so you can't be like "Yeah, I was dead for a few days and there was this Satan dude." or "Yeah, I was dead for a year, but there really was nothing there."


 i know im late to this topic, bur there was this guy who lives not that far from me who died, but was brought back within a few minutes, and he claims to have seen heaven and hell.

ive also heard that he has always been a tad bit of a loon however


----------



## Thrashmanzac

heaven AND hell?
how could he have seen both?
unless he was a fan of the band, and he was watching a dvd of them in heaven...


----------



## Jongpil Yun

sakeido said:


> That's rather hedonistic of you, and I would have thought that you of all people would understand that one approach is never the best fit for all situations.



And that's why I'm an act utilitarian instead of a rule utilitarian? I don't understand your point.



> The key word there is perception. Perception is *everything*. I had a dream this morning that felt like hours, but was actually no more than seven minutes since the whole thing happened between my alarm going off, me hitting the snooze button, and the alarm going off again seven minutes later.
> 
> As far as life after death, you'll be dead. Either something will be there, or you will be dead and therefore can't be bothered about anything. I don't give it much thought.



My intent was to say that your recollection of the dream afterwards is likely wrong. I have great doubts that you experience time slower than normal while dreaming. Mainly because that would be useful in normal life when running from a sabre toothed tiger or something. Or just any kind of life-or-death situation. You'd think it'd be part of the adrenalin drive fight-or-flight response.

Coincidentally, that reminds me of a similar claim that in emergency situations you perceive time moving slower than normal. This was found to be incorrect, and, once again, it was an artifact of memory.

I'll see if I can find the study, but I'm watching a video of Mike Portnoy acting like a dipshit.



> Anyone else ever see Groundhog Day and wonder how many sex crimes Bill Murray committed just because he knew he could get away with them? Had to get lonely somewhere in there...
> 
> Jeff



I have. He probably killed a bunch of people too.


----------



## Naren

CatPancakes said:


> i know im late to this topic, bur there was this guy who lives not that far from me who died, but was brought back within a few minutes, and he claims to have seen heaven and hell.
> 
> ive also heard that he has always been a tad bit of a loon however



That's just it. He WASN'T dead. Let me put it this way. The time of your death is not determined by the moment you stop breathing or the moment your heart stops. The moment of death is when your brain has died. Once your brain has died (ie, YOU have died), the neural pathways all disconnect.

It's like having all the data on a computer in temporary memory but none of it saved to the harddrive. As long as you're on, all that data is accessible. You turn it off and the temporary memory is freed and the hard drive is clear. The only difference is that you can't turn a human back on once they have died.

The actual case would be that they THOUGHT he was dead, but continued to try to save him, but he actually wasn't dead, and he came back. If he were dead, he could not be brought back. Once your brain dies, you CANNOT come back. No matter what. And until your brain dies, you are not dead yet.

Brain death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Brain death is a legal definition of death that emerged in the 1960s as a response to the ability to resuscitate individuals and mechanically keep the heart and lungs working. In simple terms, brain death is the irreversible end of all brain activity (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life) due to total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of blood flow and oxygenation. It should not be confused with a persistent vegetative state.



Hallucinations are very common in near-death states. It's how the brain works.

The reason for the brain death description in the 1960s was that people had believed that people were dead once their heart or breathing had stopped, but in actuality, they were not dead yet and could still be resuscitated, so they had to come up with a new definition and brain death is the actual point where an individual dies.



Jongpil Yun said:


> My intent was to say that your recollection of the dream afterwards is likely wrong. I have great doubts that you experience time slower than normal while dreaming. Mainly because that would be useful in normal life when running from a sabre toothed tiger or something. Or just any kind of life-or-death situation. You'd think it'd be part of the adrenalin drive fight-or-flight response.
> 
> Coincidentally, that reminds me of a similar claim that in emergency situations you perceive time moving slower than normal. This was found to be incorrect, and, once again, it was an artifact of memory.
> 
> I'll see if I can find the study, but I'm watching a video of Mike Portnoy acting like a dipshit.



Those are two completely different things.

A dream moves much much much faster than reality. Your brain can process information so quickly. It's not that time is moving slowly. I guess I could compare it to something like speed reading or fast-forwarding through a movie at 10x its actual speed but with gleaning all the information. It is perceived as being slow and normal speed, but in actuality the dream only lasted for 1 second.

You probably forgot about the examples I gave you, but for a more recent example, just last week, my girlfriend was at my apartment. We were talking and then I left the room. When I came back about 10-15 seconds later, she was deep asleep. When I nudged her, she woke up and said, "I just had this dream that we were on an airplane and it crashed in the ocean and we had to swim to a desserted island and there was no food or drink there and some tigers tried to eat us, so we ran into a cave." But, at the longest, she couldn't have been asleep for longer than 20 seconds.

This is a well-documented phenomenon of the human brain. Go research on it.


----------



## Thrashmanzac

dam you know a hell of alot naren


----------



## sakeido

Jongpil Yun said:


> And that's why I'm an act utilitarian instead of a rule utilitarian? I don't understand your point.


The definition of utilitarianism makes no accommodation for human rights, or environmental preservation... if you look up the definition of utilitarianism, it says right in there its hedonistic 



> My intent was to say that your recollection of the dream afterwards is likely wrong. I have great doubts that you experience time slower than normal while dreaming. Mainly because that would be useful in normal life when running from a sabre toothed tiger or something. Or just any kind of life-or-death situation. You'd think it'd be part of the adrenalin drive fight-or-flight response.
> 
> Coincidentally, that reminds me of a similar claim that in emergency situations you perceive time moving slower than normal. This was found to be incorrect, and, once again, it was an artifact of memory.



And again, perception is everything. Perceptions may be inaccurate, but the entire observable universe is filtered through our perception. It is all we have and whether they are right or wrong is of no consequence at all. And how, on earth, do you measure someone's _perception of time?_ In a crisis situation, no less. I'd like to see that study.
When you are dreaming, you have no concept of real world time at all. Like Naren said, we can process information at a staggering rate, and then our brain attempts to sort it out and imposes its own time scale on it. Our perception of the outside world is shut down and replaced with a fabricated internal one; different rules apply.

Also, I'd swear that you & JBroll are attempting to rip all the fascinating unknowns and organic qualities out of life. Give it a rest.


----------



## JBroll

I don't see how correcting serious mistakes made in pseudoreligious wankery is 'ripping all the fascinating unknowns and organic qualities out of life' - it's not like there aren't enough of those already without people pulling mysticism out of their ass...

Jeff


----------



## sakeido

JBroll said:


> I don't see how correcting serious mistakes made in pseudoreligious wankery is 'ripping all the fascinating unknowns and organic qualities out of life' - it's not like there aren't enough of those already without people pulling mysticism out of their ass...
> 
> Jeff



You think your thumping of the Bible of Science & Mathematics is any different?  You certainly have the appropriate dose of pretentiousness and piety.


----------



## JBroll

The Bible of Science & Mathematics? Haven't seen that one, I've just been working out of Logic and Evidence Weekly.

Jeff


----------



## Uncle Remus

Dunno if this has been mentioned yet cos i havn't read every single post yet but i think the concept the film "The Others" has is interesting. 

For those that don't know its theory is that when you die you become a ghost and exist in a ghost world where everything is the same as the real world when you left it but everyone else there is a deceased aswell. 

This means (i guess) you carry on living like this forever. Seems unlikely but made for a good movie 

The Others (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Creepy film...


----------



## killiansguitar

Personally, i whole heartedly believe that when you die, you go into a permanent dream state. Its the same as when you fall asleep and dream about some weird shit, just permanently.

Check out the book by Rick Strassman called "DMT: The Spirit Molecule"


----------



## jaredowty

I don't have any beliefs on what happens when we die. No living creature on earth will ever know, so what's the point of debating it? Death is life's greatest mystery, and will always remain that way.


----------



## Carrion

Planets are one of life's greatest mysteries, why debate about them? Almost any former unknown can be put into the same logic. Trying to explain the world around us is human nature.


----------



## oompa

i am, overconfidently and strongly convinced that when you die you cant do anything anymore and are considered dead. and there is nothing to it, and it doesnt necessarily have to be sad (for you).

i cant help but thinking that any belief that there is something afterwards is a defense mechanism by our need for control and survival instinct missinterpreted as a "need to have a meaning" and self value, but again thats just my opinion.


----------



## Thrashmanzac

yeah i beleive there is nothing. although "nothing" is quite a hard concept to imagine.


----------



## JBroll

Then stop imagining and you'll get it.

Jeff


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Naren said:


> A dream moves much much much faster than reality. Your brain can process information so quickly. It's not that time is moving slowly. I guess I could compare it to something like speed reading or fast-forwarding through a movie at 10x its actual speed but with gleaning all the information. It is perceived as being slow and normal speed, but in actuality the dream only lasted for 1 second.



My question is still the same; if we have this amazing ability to perceive things at 10x the refresh rate, why does it not kick in when we're in mortal danger? Why only when we're sleeping? You'd expect, for example, an fMRI to show vastly increased activity in at least certain parts of the brain during REM sleep were this to happen, but fMRIs of people during dreams show that there is either equal or less activity in each section of the brain.



> This is a well-documented phenomenon of the human brain. Go research on it.



Like I said, I've been doing pubmed searches and the like, but I can't find anything about it either way. I'd imagine basic neurophys/neuropsych texts have something about it, but I don't have any on hand.



> The definition of utilitarianism makes no accommodation for human rights, or environmental preservation... if you look up the definition of utilitarianism, it says right in there its hedonistic



Yes, it does. Human rights are widely believed to increase almost every measure of utility. The same for environmental preservation. Any criticism of utilitarianism that calls it hedonistic is almost certainly referring to felicific calculus.



Wikipedia said:


> Utilitarians simply try their best to maximise happiness (*or other forms of utility*) and, to do this, make their best estimates of the consequences. *If the consequences of a decision are particularly unclear, it may make sense to follow an ethical rule which has promoted the most utility in the past.* [ex: human rights -JP] Utilitarians also note that people trying to further their own interests frequently run into situations in which the consequences of their decisions are very unclear. This does not mean, however, that they are unable to make a decision; much the same applies to utilitarianism.



Any kind of consequentialism can be framed in terms of utilitarianism, depending on how you describe utility.



> And again, perception is everything. Perceptions may be inaccurate, but the entire observable universe is filtered through our perception.



Not my point. My point is that you only _remember_ the event that way, not that you actually _percieved_ it as such.



> And how, on earth, do you measure someone's perception of time? In a crisis situation, no less. I'd like to see that study.



It's in the PLoS One, by Stetson, Fiesta, and Eagleman. Published December 12, 2007. Funded by the US Army. They had people jump backwards off a building onto a net 100 feet 31 meters below, with no ropes attached. First they asked the subjects to estimate how long it took other people to fall, when watching, then how long it took for them to fall. They were also given a small device that displayed flickering numbers slightly too quickly for the subjects to see (this was adjusted to the particular person) and asked them if they could read the numbers.

Suffice it to say that they could not read the numbers, and they reported their own falls as taking more than 1/3 as long as other people's.

PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18074019
Original Article: http://dx.doi.org/10.1371&#37;2Fjournal.pone.0001295



> When you are dreaming, you have no concept of real world time at all. Like Naren said, we can process information at a staggering rate, and then our brain attempts to sort it out and imposes its own time scale on it. Our perception of the outside world is shut down and replaced with a fabricated internal one; different rules apply.



I take issue with that. If it were true, you'd be able to perform mental tasks more quickly -- an effect we don't see. Rather, quote:



Stetson said:


> Our findings suggest that time-slowing is a function of recollection, not perception: a richer encoding of memory may cause a salient event to appear, retrospectively, as though it lasted longer.





> Also, I'd swear that you & JBroll are attempting to rip all the fascinating unknowns and organic qualities out of life. Give it a rest.



Ever read Dawkins' _Unweaving the Rainbow_? Why does understanding something make it less beautiful? Are magicians unable to watch other conjurers perform, or do they have a deeper respect for the performance because they know what is going on? Just because I can play the solo to Stairway, does that make it worse?



> You think your thumping of the Bible of Science & Mathematics is any different? You certainly have the appropriate dose of pretentiousness and piety.



Bible thumping? Come on, asking someone to back up what they believe is hardly some kind of dogmatic fundamentalism. Science works. Mathematics works. That's the ultimate test.


----------



## Jachop

I hope for reincarnation! But I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## shadowgenesis

Thrashmanzac said:


> i think when you die there is just nothing. although nothing is impossible to imagine.
> so please, discuss



i feel the same. and I often find myself sitting around and the thought comes to me that there is nothing when you die.. and then i kinda scream inside and freak out and it keeps me awake at night.


----------



## Ryan-ZenGtr-

My favourite thing about the internet is you have access to the ramblings of the delusional, the confused and the just plain, good 'ol fashioned kerrrazzzyy...

There is a website focused on the this, google it...

One dude, a crazy artist, who had been diagnosed as terminally ill OD'd to see what would happen... Isn't that enough?

But, wait...

It gets worse...

He claims he was visited by a spirit... which manifested itself as various different religious icons, even though the artist was an athiest... and this spirit/energy/light beckoned him to join it, taking him on an astral journey exposing the mysteries of the universe... Upon which, he realised it wasn't his time. He found himself surrounded by an ambulance crew...

*Boo!*

Genuinely on the website, I couldn't make that £$% up unless I tried.

Entertaining though...

My thoughts are, enjoy it while you can, do your best to spend your time well and help others along the journey, so that they can enjoy it with you...

Why not watch that film with the guy from 24, scanners or something... Where the medical students kill each other, then revive themselves with electro shock...

Bhuddism's got some fun after death concepts, too.

Just make sure not to have friends that think it would be honouring your memory to steal your body from the funeral home/church/crematorium and go on a booze cruise across America... A point for anyone who can remember which musician that actually happened to.

R.


----------



## Daemoniac

shadowgenesis said:


> i feel the same. and I often find myself sitting around and the thought comes to me that there is nothing when you die.. and then i kinda scream inside and freak out and it keeps me awake at night.




Same thing happens to me dude. Its a horrible feeling when it happens and it lasts (for me) for fucking ages...


----------



## Naren

Jong Pil, you just ignored everything I wrote just because you don't want to believe it. I may have had a dream that SEEMED to last 3 months in the span of 2 minutes, but it ACTUALLY lasted less than 2 minutes, but I have memories of several events and conversations over what seemed to be 3 months. In actuality was it 3 months? No, it was about 1 and a half minutes (dreams don't always start immediately), but I remember way more information than what could happen in 2 minutes.

Are you saying that my brain just made up all that stuff the moment I woke up? Either way, that would be the brain making up a lot of information in a very very short period of time. But I remember standing there talking to someone for a long time when I was actually only asleep for a very short period of time.

I gave the example of my girlfriend as well. Why do you find this hard to accept? It's nothing supernatural or unrealistic.



Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> Bhuddism's got some fun after death concepts, too.



Not fun if you believe them. Spending 339,738,624*10^10 years in a Hell of consistent torture where you are killed over and over and over again does not sound like fun.

I was talking with a friend about this yesterday. Her family is Buddhist and she was saying that Christian Hell and Islamic Hell isn't scary at all compared to Buddhist Hell and I completely agree with her.

Check it out: Naraka (Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


----------



## sakeido

Naren said:


> Jong Pil, you just ignored everything I wrote just because you don't want to believe it.



I was going to say the exact same thing


----------



## sakeido

Jongpil Yun said:


> Yes, it does. Human rights are widely believed to increase almost every measure of utility. The same for environmental preservation. Any criticism of utilitarianism that calls it hedonistic is almost certainly referring to felicific calculus.


...which is the university taught definition of act utilitarianism and the one I'd venture a guess most people are familiar with. Also, you could use some schooling about effective communication because I'm positive the vast majority of people would read that and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 
You like to be book smart, great. Stephen Hawking is a genius, all the more so because he is able to talk and explain staggeringly complex ideas in plain english. Follow his example...



> Not my point. My point is that you only _remember_ the event that way, not that you actually _percieved_ it as such.



Not a valid distinction.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Doesn't anyone actually believe that there is more to come after we die? I mean, we aren't just some amoebas that turned into intellectual life forms and started developing cures for disease and rockets to go into space.

I believe in God. 

We are meant to believe. Those who don't believe tend to have issues with a perceived emptiness after death. Without faith in God, an emptiness exists inside of us. I think that is just our own conscience tryin to tell us something. Not everyone understands the message however.

Not picking on anyone here...this is my opinion and these are my thoughts.


----------



## guitarjitsumaster

I see there are alot materialist views on this subject here. I think its a large assumption do discount other planes of reality that might go beyond what we can currently observe. Discounting an afterlife would take transcendent knowledge or vice versa of course and I acknowledge that. However I always go back to this quote when I think about how many people these days approach this subject.

"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." 

I think the fact that were trying to answer these questions gives part of the anwer itself. I know alot of people try to explain consciousness, the complexity of life and the vast information in our physical laws as a long train of random accidents. However if it were true and thoughts are just the product of accidents why should I trust them to explain the original accident.

Suffice it to say I do believe that there is an order to our universe for a reason. Therefore I believe that we do not have conciousness just to point out the "pointlessness" of life but to be able to perceive that there is more to life than just the material.


----------



## JBroll

I disagree with both of you in a way that cannot be explained or understood in material terms.

Jeff


----------



## auxioluck

Our spirit releases to the next plane. To come back again and learn more. When it's done learning, it stops coming back. It stays in the next plane.


----------



## FlyingBanana

auxioluck said:


> Our spirit releases to the next plane. To come back again and learn more. When it's done learning, it stops coming back. It stays in the next plane.


 
Any proof of this?


----------



## sakeido

FlyingBanana said:


> Doesn't anyone actually believe that there is more to come after we die? I mean, we aren't just some amoebas that turned into intellectual life forms and started developing cures for disease and rockets to go into space.
> 
> I believe in God.
> 
> We are meant to believe. Those who don't believe tend to have issues with a perceived emptiness after death. Without faith in God, an emptiness exists inside of us. I think that is just our own conscience tryin to tell us something. Not everyone understands the message however.
> 
> Not picking on anyone here...this is my opinion and these are my thoughts.



We are actually just single celled organisms that evolved in an incredibly unique and unlikely way to start curing disease and going to space. I don't believe in God, and I don't feel empty at all. I don't worry about what happens after death - either there is nothing, in which case I won't be bothered by it because I'm dead and over. Or there is something, in which case I'll be pleasantly surprised. Buuut debating about whether there is anything there is a waste of time. 
We were not meant to believe. People told you that over and over again from a young age, and now you hold that be true. But it is not an absolute truth.. it is a dogmatic one.



auxioluck said:


> Our spirit releases to the next plane. To come back again and learn more. When it's done learning, it stops coming back. It stays in the next plane.



No



FlyingBanana said:


> Any proof of this?



Any proof of yours, either? No


----------



## cev

FlyingBanana said:


> Any proof of this?



Is there any proof of anyone's beliefs on deaths? 

The way I see it, I'll die when I die, and I'll find out what happens after death when I get there. In the meantime, I'll try to live a good life. If it turns out there's a God and an afterlife... great, I'll be rewarded for my good life! If not... well, at least I lived a good life while I had the chance.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Doesn't anyone actually believe that there is more to come after we die? I mean, we aren't just some amoebas that turned into intellectual life forms and started developing cures for disease and rockets to go into space.
> 
> I believe in God.
> 
> We are meant to believe. Those who don't believe tend to have issues with a perceived emptiness after death. Without faith in God, an emptiness exists inside of us. I think that is just our own conscience tryin to tell us something. Not everyone understands the message however.
> 
> Not picking on anyone here...this is my opinion and these are my thoughts.





auxioluck said:


> Our spirit releases to the next plane. To come back again and learn more. When it's done learning, it stops coming back. It stays in the next plane.





FlyingBanana said:


> Any proof of this?



Dude, don't be a dick and demand proof from someone because of their beliefs when what you said not long ago has no proof either.


----------



## auxioluck

FlyingBanana said:


> Any proof of this?



The only proof I have is what I have experienced, and my personal beliefs. 

That's all this question ever was and ever will be. You have your own personal experiences that lead you to believe what you want, and I have mine. As does everyone else. People who believe nothing happens when you die are no different. They have had personal experiences that lead them to believe nothing happens when you die. I don't argue about what I believe, it's just what I believe. Our views may differ, but we are still people, and inherently unsure of what REALLY happens when we die. You have your ideas, I have mine, everyone has theirs, and hopefully we all wind up in the same place. We are all in the same place now, unsure of what really happens, where we are going, why we are here, and what our purpose is. But the beauty of it is that we have the ability to have our own opinions and make up our own minds. 

No one really knows what happens, because no one can believe someone who says they know. That's what's so great. We can make our own ending, and find out if we were right or wrong. It's a truly profound decision when you think about it, you being a Christian should know this better than some. Humanity is one big pool heading towards a single destiny, but it has a plethora of ideas on how to get there. I don't believe there is a right or wrong, I'm just glad to see that people are finding enough pride and certainty to feel like they are heading toward the destiny they forsee.

I don't feel the need to tell people to prove what they believe, nor get upset when people don't believe what I believe, nor get upset when they have no proof of what they believe. You can't prove it, you can't explain it, it's just THERE. All of us being musicians should know this better than most people; think in terms of inspiration. We can't explain how we create music, we just do. 

To quote the great Bad Religion, "You create your own reality, and leave mine to me."  (This is not presented to be a dick, it just made me think of that song.)


----------



## Daemoniac

^ This post = WIN.

I think so far as beliefs go, they are just that: Beliefs. They do not need material foundations per se, there isnt necessairily a 'reason' to have them, you just do. Things can change, even your beliefs can completely change, but it doesnt matter _why_. As long as you have some conviction in your beliefs, and can still accept that other people will have other beliefs, theres no issue 

I have no issue with God, i have no issue with reincarnation, buddhism or anything, as long as they can accept that i dont yet know exactly what i believe.

_Mark_, i understand you probably dont mean to come off as such a zealot, but dude, i really get the feeling with your posts that you cannot understand how someone could _not_ believe in god, and as a result they tend to come off pretty condescending... Im not trying to blindside you or anything, you seem like a nice enough guy, but seriously... acceptance


----------



## FlyingBanana

No problem mischa..

I have no personal issues with how people believe different from me. 

I'm just sharing my thoughts with you same as you would share with me the fact that you don't believe in anything. 

And....that not believing in anything seems like a pretty good way to leave an emptiness inside you that can either be filled with good or bad. It's your choice really. I prefer to have Christ in my life and not have feelings of being out of control and directionless like so many in this world do.

Not saying this is you per say, but many find that their life is missing something. I can think of lots of worse things than believing in Christ who preached love, humility and faith.


----------



## Brendan G

FlyingBanana said:


> No problem mischa..
> 
> I have no personal issues with how people believe different from me.
> 
> I'm just sharing my thoughts with you same as you would share with me the fact that you don't believe in anything.
> 
> And....that not believing in anything seems like a pretty good way to leave an emptiness inside you that can either be filled with good or bad. It's your choice really. I prefer to have Christ in my life and not have feelings of being out of control and directionless like so many in this world do.
> 
> Not saying this is you per say, but many find that their life is missing something. I can think of lots of worse things than believing in Christ who preached love, humility and faith.


I agree that there are things much worse to believe in than religion, or specifically in your case Christianity. However, sometimes being "filled" with religion can also lead to emptiness. Allow me to explain, when I was still Christian, I prayed to God I asked for things (Not always material, but for things to be resolved, guidance, etc.) and when almost all of those things never came, I felt what I have believed in deeply for years was a lie, which made me feel emptier than I do now as an Atheist. Now, I have no problem with religion, or people being religious, just explaining my point of view.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Brendan G said:


> I agree that there are things much worse to believe in than religion, or specifically in your case Christianity. However, sometimes being "filled" with religion can also lead to emptiness. Allow me to explain, when I was still Christian, I prayed to God I asked for things (Not always material, but for things to be resolved, guidance, etc.) and when almost all of those things never came, I felt what I have believed in deeply for years was a lie, which made me feel emptier than I do now as an Atheist. Now, I have no problem with religion, or people being religious, just explaining my point of view.


 

I'm sorry to hear that Brendan.

I am in quite the opposite situation. I would be nothing without Christ. Sure, there is the old adage, "God helps those who help themselves."

However, there have been situations where I just had to let go and things worked out, and through absolutely no input of my own. I have been where you said you were and my prayers as well as the prayers of my wife, were answered. 

I won't get into a discussion on religion per say, but the only thing I can tell you is to not give up on God. He would never give up on you, even if you think He did. Remember the story of the footsteps in the sand. It's a pretty cool story. You can google it.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Naren said:


> Jong Pil, you just ignored everything I wrote just because you don't want to believe it. I may have had a dream that SEEMED to last 3 months in the span of 2 minutes, but it ACTUALLY lasted less than 2 minutes, but I have memories of several events and conversations over what seemed to be 3 months. In actuality was it 3 months? No, it was about 1 and a half minutes (dreams don't always start immediately), but I remember way more information than what could happen in 2 minutes.



No. I'm saying your memory of the event is flawed. Is this any surprise? Dreams are notoriously hard to remember. You say that extraordinarily long dreams happening in a short time period is a well documented phenomenon, then where's the documentation? Besides that, again, if this happens, would we not see increased brain activity? Then why don't we? My hypothesis is that if asked to relate the events of your dream immediately upon waking, the areas associated with imagining things, not memories, would be the most active.

Also, you don't fall asleep and immediately start dreaming. To give you an idea of the time scales, if someone goes into a REM cycle 15-20 minutes after falling asleep, it's considered a strong indicator of narcolepsy. And that's 15 minutes.



> Spending 339,738,624*10^10 years in a Hell of consistent torture where you are killed over and over and over again does not sound like fun.



339,738,624*10^10 < Infinity.



> ...which is the university taught definition of act utilitarianism and the one I'd venture a guess most people are familiar with. Also, you could use some schooling about effective communication because I'm positive the vast majority of people would read that and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.



If I ignore the fact that you've been taught that utilitarianism is exclusively hedonistic, you're still wrong. From a purely hedonistic point of view, it behooves you to afford others human rights so that you can expect the same in return. We humans have the default mode of trusting others, but reciprocating bad actions. Any group under this mode of operation will, even if the individuals are entirely concerned with their own self-preservation, evolve "rules" such as do not kill others, do not steal, etc.

As for my communication... your problem is...? Saying stuff like the word consequentialism? A single trip to Wikipedia will tell you what it is. Besides, I'm not talking to random people on the street, I'm talking to you, and you clearly understand what I'm saying.



> You like to be book smart, great. Stephen Hawking is a genius, all the more so because he is able to talk and explain staggeringly complex ideas in plain english. Follow his example...



This stuff isn't very complex at all. If you have a problem with me using the common terms for these ideas, you can take it up with the people whose job it is to talk about this stuff.



> Not a valid distinction.



Yes it is. If you truly perceive something as happening slowly, as it's happening, you will, for example, be able to read the numbers blinking on your watch. If you only remember things as happening slowly, you would remember exactly what would be expected under normal perception, but report the event as having taken longer. Which is exactly what we see with the people falling, unable to read the blinking numbers, but reporting their fall as taking over 1/3 as long as everybody else's.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

> I see there are alot materialist views on this subject here. I think its a large assumption do discount other planes of reality that might go beyond what we can currently observe. Discounting an afterlife would take transcendent knowledge or vice versa of course and I acknowledge that. However I always go back to this quote when I think about how many people these days approach this subject.



If they are beyond what we can ever possibly observe, then we can have no knowledge about it. Period. Therefore, you MUST be technically agnostic about it.

If I invoke Russel's Teapot, it may, or may not exist, but it behaves exactly as if it didn't exist. Does that mean that I should, by default, assume it exists?



> I think the fact that were trying to answer these questions gives part of the anwer itself. I know alot of people try to explain consciousness, the complexity of life and the vast information in our physical laws as a long train of random accidents. However if it were true and thoughts are just the product of accidents why should I trust them to explain the original accident.



No, they don't. That's completely ridiculous.



> Suffice it to say I do believe that there is an order to our universe for a reason. Therefore I believe that we do not have conciousness just to point out the "pointlessness" of life but to be able to perceive that there is more to life than just the material.



Well whoever designed us did a shitty job, because like you said above, if there IS something more than just the material, we can't possibly know about it. Good job, Creator guy.



> Dude, don't be a dick and demand proof from someone because of their beliefs when what you said not long ago has no proof either.



How about everyone stops making claims they have no proof for, or can't possibly have proof for?



> You have your own personal experiences that lead you to believe what you want, and I have mine. As does everyone else.



You are saying all ideas are equally valid. This is wrong.



> "You create your own reality, and leave mine to me."



How about, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."



> I think so far as beliefs go, they are just that: Beliefs. They do not need material foundations per se, there isnt necessairily a 'reason' to have them, you just do. Things can change, even your beliefs can completely change, but it doesnt matter why. As long as you have some conviction in your beliefs, and can still accept that other people will have other beliefs, theres no issue



That's true for unfalsifiable claims, but the ones I'm talking about _can be tested_. We can test whether your perception of time changes during a NDE.



> He would never give up on you, even if you think He did.



All I can say is, I don't know what it would take to make me believe in God, but he does. And I'm still waiting.


----------



## auxioluck

Jongpil Yun said:


> How about, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."



They were just song lyrics man.

And how are all ideas not equally valid to those who have them? Your idea is that I'm wrong, but what if I don't think that's valid? I mean seriously, everyone's entitled to their ideas, and it's not my place to tell them their ideas aren't valid. You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I won't tell you your ideas aren't valid, don't tell me mine aren't valid. I may not agree with your ideas, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid.


----------



## BlindingLight7

after observing ive came to a conclusion. 

we all die...so how about finding out when we die and go on with our lives while we still have time left? which isnt much, 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!

no, but really dude, i think we all go to a better, if its heaven/boobies/anus buttsecks


idk now im just being stupid


----------



## JBroll

Anus buttsecks? Isn't that repeatedly redundant?

Jeff


----------



## Zepp88

I think he was trying to say enjoy the ride, you'll find the truth at the end.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

auxioluck said:


> They were just song lyrics man.
> 
> And how are all ideas not equally valid to those who have them? Your idea is that I'm wrong, but what if I don't think that's valid? I mean seriously, everyone's entitled to their ideas, and it's not my place to tell them their ideas aren't valid. You believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe. I won't tell you your ideas aren't valid, don't tell me mine aren't valid. I may not agree with your ideas, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid.



And that's where I stop. Never try to argue with a postmodernist. Why? Everybody is right.

I should write that on my finals. 2+2=6. What, I got it wrong? It's like, totally not your place to tell me that my ideas aren't valid, dude.



> I think he was trying to say enjoy the ride, you'll find the truth at the end.



Actually, if there turns out to be no life after death, you won't find out the truth. Because you'll be dead.


----------



## Zepp88

Well, I suppose if I'm dead I won't care.


----------



## auxioluck

It's all about context , we are talking about what happens after you die. That sounds like a pretty interpretable topic to me. I don't ever recall making a statement about mathematics. I'm not even really sure how mathematics constitutes as a conduit for idealism. Also, I wasn't aware all Post-Modernists talked like Spiccolli.

Could you, I don't know, stop looking down your nose at people? SORRY for being a "Postmodernist," I'm sorry for giving people the freedom to their own ideas, but more importantly, I'm sorry for being a human being. It must be tough imagining that there may be something outside of your brain that could be a feasible idea.

I understand you're an intelligent guy, but not all people are fucking stupid. A simple, "I agree to disagree" works fine, you don't have to make petty jabs at people you don't agree with. You don't even know me, so calling me a "Post-Modernist" over the internet just makes you look like a presumptuous cock. 

And that's where I stop. I don't have any problems with you JP, but all I was trying to do was stay decently positive about it, and explain that in the end, we are pretty much the same; we are fucking clueless as to what really happens when we die. So who is really right?


----------



## Jongpil Yun

> You don't even know me, so calling me a "Post-Modernist" over the internet just makes you look like a presumptuous cock.





> And how are all ideas not equally valid to those who have them?



Postmodernism.


----------



## auxioluck

Well, at least now I know I can die as a Postmodernist. I'm glad we shared this intimate moment.


----------



## Daemoniac

Fuck me this has gone way out of hand. This is an argument that _nobody_ is going to win, because everyone involved _has different ideals and beliefs_. And regardless of how much you dont want to accept that, and regardless of how much you feel you need to prove everyone wrong, its not going to happen.

Why? _THEY'RE BELIEFS._ As personal and as random as our personalities. Deal with it and stop berating everyone for their beliefs Yongpil.


----------



## twiztedchild

I beleive that after I die......the world ends.


----------



## Daemoniac

twiztedchild said:


> I beleive that after I die......the world ends.


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


>



Glad you liked that comment


----------



## Daemoniac

Can you imagine it dude, we have to like strive to keep you alive so the rest of us dont get blown up 
"Oh no! James is dead!! Fuck!" *enter world exploding*

It seriously made me crack up


----------



## Zepp88

I beleive in the right to die....unless you're James.


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> Glad you liked that comment



No hard feelings James... But I'm totally going to shoot you to see what happens. 

Don't blame me! Blame human nature! 

(j/k )


----------



## killiansguitar

I like cheese.


----------



## Daemoniac

I believe when you die, the world turns to cheese. Like the cadbury world, but cheese.



ZeroSignal said:


> (j/k )



Hes not joking.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> No hard feelings James... But I'm totally going to shoot you to see what happens.
> 
> Don't blame me! Blame human nature!
> 
> (j/k )



 Go for it. 


If you can find me.

Its like "Where's Waldo?" but with Mexicans  No Offence to any mexicans here. Just the town I liv in is like full of em. 




Demoniac said:


> I believe when you die, the world turns to cheese. Like the cadbury world, but cheese.



 ALL HAIL CHEESE. 

Behold. The Power of CHeese!


----------



## Daemoniac

Cheese tables with a power level of OVER NINE THOUSAND!!


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> Cheese tables with a power level of OVER NINE THOUSAND!!


----------



## Straykan

Cheese, and metal. two things that are good in small quantities, and mind-blowing in large doses


----------



## twiztedchild

Straykan said:


> Cheese, and metal. two things that are good in small quantities, and mind-blowing in large doses





I hate you brain.


----------



## Naren

Jongpil Yun said:


> Actually, if there turns out to be no life after death, you won't find out the truth. Because you'll be dead.



That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. People keep saying "We'll find out when we're dead." If there's no afterlife, we won't find out jack shit.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Demoniac said:


> Hes not joking.



Dammit he's good... 

Looks like I'm going to have to shoot you too. 

Except... if James is right I probably won't have to.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> Dammit he's good...
> 
> Looks like I'm going to have to shoot you too.
> 
> *Except... if James is right I probably won't have to.*







I am right


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> I am right



Hold still dammit! And move closer to the window...


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> Hold still dammit! And move closer to the window...



the funny thing is..as I was reading that I was moving  and Im about a foot from my window that could been a clean sniper shot IF you where good enuff


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> the funny thing is..as I was reading that I was moving  and Im about a foot from my window that could been a clean sniper shot IF you where good enuff



I'm not used to a 50cal... 

Seriously dude. We've got to stop derailing this thread.  As amusing as it may be.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> I'm not used to a 50cal...
> 
> Seriously dude. We've got to stop derailing this thread.  As amusing as it may be.



ok, ok. Back on topic, I beleive the when you die you memeroy goes away but you Reserect 

Maybe. 

Fuck I dunno. I havent DIED yet.


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> ok, ok. Back on topic, I beleive the when you die you memeroy goes away but you Reserect
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Fuck I dunno. I havent DIED yet.



Yet... 

Fuck. Sorry! 

I'm going to be boring and just follow the typical agnostic/atheistic line and say that nothing happens after you die. To use that awful term: Oblivion.

That seems to be the most logical and rational explanation.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> Yet...
> 
> Fuck. Sorry!
> 
> I'm going to be boring and just follow the typical agnostic/atheistic line and say that nothing happens after you die. To use that awful term: Oblivion.
> 
> That seems to be the most logical and rational explanation.



Agreed. What would I be IF I dont beleive in God or the Devil or Heaven and Hell. An Agnostic?

Not the band I know that is real


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> Agreed. What would I be IF I dont beleive in God or the Devil or Heaven and Hell. An Agnostic?
> 
> Not the band I know that is real



I thought the band was Atheist? 

If you outright don't believe in all that superstitious jazz then you're atheist. If you think that there MIGHT be a chance that they do exist, but have yet to find proof then you're agnostic. Although I agree with Dawkins on the whole "Lazy Agnostic" thing. You know, fence sitters because they simply couldn't be bothered either way.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> I thought the band was Atheist?
> 
> If you outright don't believe in all that superstitious jazz then you're atheist. If you think that there MIGHT be a chance that they do exist, but have yet to find proof then you're agnostic. Although I agree with Dawkins on the whole "Lazy Agnostic" thing. You know, fence sitters because they simply couldn't be bothered either way.



Well, Im an Atheist then 




and I dont know about them. it is just Black Sabbath with Dio Singing for them again


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> Well, Im an Atheist then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I dont know about them. it is just Black Sabbath with Dio Singing for them again



Oh... Now I get it...


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> Oh... Now I get it...





Enlighten me please. you got me confused


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> Agreed. What would I be IF I dont beleive in God or the Devil or *Heaven and Hell*. An Agnostic?
> 
> Not the band I know that is real





twiztedchild said:


> Well, Im an Atheist then
> 
> *and I dont know about them. it is just Black Sabbath with Dio Singing for them again *



Heaven and Hell (band - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> Heaven and Hell (band - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)



Oh Yeah. you cought that a little bit late huh?


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> Oh Yeah. you cought that a little bit late huh?



Says you, mate.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> Says you, mate.



that reminds me of something from South Park. But It would be way off topic  








Unless you want me to post it?


----------



## FlyingBanana

I find it pretty sad that all of you can be so vulgar and nonchalant about something so profound as salvation. 

I guess I myself just cannot believe that we are all accidents of nature and that there is no greater will being done here.

It's quite obvious to me that there is a bigger picture going on here, and that I think it makes some of you afraid and so you end up joking about it all...kind of hoping that it isn't. 

One question I'd ask is this. 

If there is no proverbial light at the end of the tunnel or anything bigger and greater than ourselves to look forward to, then what's the point of it all?

I personally prefer to believe in something greater than myself. If I didn't, then what happens if I am wrong? I don't want to take that chance.

That said, I really do believe in God and accept Christ. I'm not saying that in a lighthearted way nor trying to convince myself of it. I'm only trying to offer a different take on things.

Please don't be offended by my post. 

Peace.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> 1 I find it pretty sad that all of you can be so vulgar and nonchalant about something so profound as salvation.
> 
> 2 I guess I myself just cannot believe that we are all accidents of nature and that there is no greater will being done here.
> 
> 3 It's quite obvious to me that there is a bigger picture going on here, and that I think it makes some of you afraid and so you end up joking about it all...kind of hoping that it isn't.
> 
> 4 One question I'd ask is this.
> 
> 5 If there is no proverbial light at the end of the tunnel or anything bigger and greater than ourselves to look forward to, then what's the point of it all?
> 
> 6 I personally prefer to believe in something greater than myself. If I didn't, then what happens if I am wrong? I don't want to take that chance.
> 
> 7 That said, I really do believe in God and accept Christ. I'm not saying that in a lighthearted way nor trying to convince myself of it. I'm only trying to offer a different take on things.
> 
> 8 Please don't be offended by my post.
> 
> 9 Peace.



1 I find it sad that you're so condescending about "salvation". 

2 Science, logic, rationality and reason all seem to be pointing in that direction. IF you replace "accidents" with "adaptations".

3 I joke about it because I am unafraid of it. I'm not going to do anything stupid or suicidal to shorten my life either.

4 OK, go for it. 

5 I'm glad you asked. To me, and I'm sure many others, is to lead a long and fulfilling life and do my best to help others. Life... is life. You live it the best you can because that's all you can do. If you don't then you're losing out big-time because as far as I know there is no other life after this one. You get one shot so take it.

6 If you're wrong, you're wrong. End of story. You've wasted all those hours in church/prayer/whatever that you could have spent doing anything else.

7 Christ was a great guy and all and he had a great message but I don't believe in god. I like what Jesus said but I'm not going to believe in a big, bad, scary Abrahamic god because a book tells me to. 

8 I'm not. 

9 Peace, brother.


----------



## JBroll

I don't think the universe has given us a One True Point to rule them all, but that doesn't mean that everything is pointless. That means we need to grow the fuck up and figure out what we think is worth living for.

It's quite obvious to me that religions are jokes and as a result I don't believe in them. I was a great Catholic until I read the Bible.

Also... don't try to pull Pascal's Wager. You will not come out of that one happy.

Jeff


----------



## thebhef

I also want to say, no matter what the 'bigger picture' is, you can always say there's a bigger picture above it and that it doesn't really matter. Say God does exist. Why? Wouldn't he be pointless, too?


----------



## cev

FlyingBanana said:


> It's quite obvious to me that there is a bigger picture going on here, and that I think it makes some of you afraid and so you end up joking about it all...kind of hoping that it isn't.



Watch me turn this one around:



> It's quite obvious to me that there is no bigger picture going on here, and that I think it makes some of you afraid and so you end up inventing one to assuage your fears.



You have your beliefs, and that's fine, I respect that. But understand that everything you just said can easily be turned around the other way, and there's absolutely nothing to say which one of us is right - nothing except personal beliefs and opinions.

(And in case I'm not being clear, no I don't really believe that quote I just invented. Just trying to make a point here)


----------



## Psyclapse

Why do we NEED religion to live a happy, meaningful life? Can't we just live a happy, meaningful life on our own? To me, it seems a little silly to think that your life would be meaningless without religion. So many people claim that they do good deeds because that's what the bible says to do, so do they only do good deeds because of the bible? Can't they do good because that's what they want? So what if there was no bible? Would every Christian just be hateful evildoers because they don't have the bible for guidance? It all just seems a little sheep-ish.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Psyclapse said:


> Why do we NEED religion to live a happy, meaningful life? Can't we just live a happy, meaningful life on our own? To me, it seems a little silly to think that your life would be meaningless without religion. So many people claim that they do good deeds because that's what the bible says to do, so do they only do good deeds because of the bible? Can't they do good because that's what they want? So what if there was no bible? Would every Christian just be hateful evildoers because they don't have the bible for guidance? It all just seems a little sheep-ish.



That, my friend, is an awesome post. 

Anyone want to come back from that?


----------



## Stitch

Jongpil Yun said:


> If they are beyond what we can ever possibly observe, then we can have no knowledge about it. Period. Therefore, you MUST be technically agnostic about it.
> 
> If I invoke Russel's Teapot, it may, or may not exist, but it behaves exactly as if it didn't exist. Does that mean that I should, by default, assume it exists?
> 
> 
> 
> No, they don't. That's completely ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> Well whoever designed us did a shitty job, because like you said above, if there IS something more than just the material, we can't possibly know about it. Good job, Creator guy.
> 
> 
> 
> How about everyone stops making claims they have no proof for, or can't possibly have proof for?
> 
> 
> 
> You are saying all ideas are equally valid. This is wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> How about, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
> 
> 
> 
> That's true for unfalsifiable claims, but the ones I'm talking about _can be tested_. We can test whether your perception of time changes during a NDE.
> 
> 
> 
> All I can say is, I don't know what it would take to make me believe in God, but he does. And I'm still waiting.



You really need to go out and get laid dude.



JBroll said:


> Anus buttsecks? Isn't that repeatedly redundant?
> 
> Jeff







FlyingBanana said:


> I personally prefer to believe in something greater than myself. If I didn't, then what happens if I am wrong? I don't want to take that chance.
> 
> That said, I really do believe in God and accept Christ. I'm not saying that in a lighthearted way nor trying to convince myself of it. I'm only trying to offer a different take on things.
> 
> Please don't be offended by my post.
> 
> Peace.



By that statement your saying you still follow God and accept Jesus as your saviour because if you stopped you'd have wasted your time, so you won't stop because you don't want to have wasted it? I think thats a rather sad materialistic view. Its far more important to believe in yourself and be happy with that. 

I'm not having a go man, but all your posts are coming across as immensely preachy and aloof. Just because we haven't accepted Jesus doesn't mean we have a space inside that he would fill instead occupied by misanthropic apathy. Your making this out to be way more black vs. white than it is.



Psyclapse said:


> Why do we NEED religion to live a happy, meaningful life? Can't we just live a happy, meaningful life on our own? To me, it seems a little silly to think that your life would be meaningless without religion. So many people claim that they do good deeds because that's what the bible says to do, so do they only do good deeds because of the bible? Can't they do good because that's what they want? So what if there was no bible? Would every Christian just be hateful evildoers because they don't have the bible for guidance? It all just seems a little sheep-ish.





I dont actively follow or any religions. I'm far more concerned with finding an inner balance...which seems a better mental exercise. Sorting yourself out seems like much more of an achievement than 'letting' someone else in to do it for you...


----------



## Psyclapse

ZeroSignal said:


> That, my friend, is an awesome post.
> 
> Anyone want to come back from that?



 Thank you!


----------



## FlyingBanana

cev said:


> Watch me turn this one around:
> 
> 
> 
> You have your beliefs, and that's fine, I respect that. But understand that everything you just said can easily be turned around the other way, and there's absolutely nothing to say which one of us is right - nothing except personal beliefs and opinions.
> 
> (And in case I'm not being clear, no I don't really believe that quote I just invented. Just trying to make a point here)


 
By the way, I respect you for your beliefs.

I am curious about something though. A lot of you guys have made comments or quotes only to say that you didn't really mean them or that you didn't really believe them and that you were just trying to make a point. 

Where my curiosity takes over is here...Some try to make the argument that God doesn't exist, and then they almost take it back with a disclaimer at the end of the post as if to say, "Well, if He does exist, then I want to cover my bases and acknowledge that possibility in case I'm wrong."

To me that is fascinating.

Wouldn't it be easier emotionally to just accept that God does exist? I mean, let's say that He does and you accept Him and Christ, what do you have to lose? They both stand for peace, fairness and brotherly love...and good morals.

I just can't see how you can go wrong.



Psyclapse said:


> Why do we NEED religion to live a happy, meaningful life? *Can't we just live a happy, meaningful life on our own?* To me, it seems a little silly to think that your life would be meaningless without religion. So many people claim that they do good deeds because that's what the bible says to do, so do they only do good deeds because of the bible? Can't they do good because that's what they want? So what if there was no bible? Would every Christian just be hateful evildoers because they don't have the bible for guidance? It all just seems a little sheep-ish.


 
Absolutely. Anyone can go out and do good deeds, help people, be caring, love their family and friends without ever accepting that God exists....

But what would the point be if you didn't accept Christ? You wouldn't attain salvation. There is a place in the bible where God is looking down at these people trying to enter heaven's proverbial gates and they tell God that they performed miracles in His name, prophesied in His name...etc. He looks down at them and says, "Go away from here. I never even knew you."

That is a pretty poignant thing to say to people who really believed that they were doing God's will. But does it speak of a bigger issue? Did they ever really accept God or believe in His Son Jesus?

To me it brings out the underlying issue humanity faces. We can all be nice to each other, helpful and all that is good, but if we don't truly believe in God and 100% give our hearts over to Him, is any of this worth it?

In my opinion, salvation should be the ultimate goal and all that good helping people and living a good clean life stuff will just naturally follow.


----------



## thebhef

It's because most people realize that they can't say for sure that there is or is not a god. Religious types believe there is, so they don't question or qualify their belief at the end. I'd like to think there is something after this, but I don't expect it. Before that, I intend to live life as I see fit. I don't need to be worrying about what some ghost thinks of me. That's easier emotionally.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Absolutely. Anyone can go out and do good deeds, help people, be caring, love their family and friends without ever accepting that God exists....
> 
> But what would the point be if you didn't accept Christ? You wouldn't attain salvation. There is a place in the bible where God is looking down at these people trying to enter heaven's proverbial gates and they tell God that they performed miracles in His name, prophesied in His name...etc. He looks down at them and says, "Go away from here. I never even knew you."
> 
> That is a pretty poignant thing to say to people who really believed that they were doing God's will. But does it speak of a bigger issue? Did they ever really accept God or believe in His Son Jesus?
> 
> To me it brings out the underlying issue humanity faces. We can all be nice to each other, helpful and all that is good, but if we don't truly believe in God and 100&#37; give our hearts over to Him, is any of this worth it?
> 
> In my opinion, salvation should be the ultimate goal and all that good helping people and living a good clean life stuff will just naturally follow.



Did you honestly just ask what would be the point of doing good in the world if there was no salvation waiting for you? Talk about the greediest fucking thing I have ever heard!! You just admitted to only doing good deeds and living an honorable life just so you can get into heaven.

Edit: On second thought, no... Don't answer that previous question. As Stitch says, I don't want any preaching please.


----------



## Stitch

FlyingBanana take this how you want, but you are the exact reason I detest religion being a communal thing. I hate how your logic must be 'better' than others because you have 'God on your side'.

Why do you need to share that you have let God into your life? Why are you preaching like you are somehow better? I'm not ragging at you dude, your a nice guy, but your stance on religion just makes me go


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> By the way, I respect you for your beliefs.
> 
> I am curious about something though. A lot of you guys have made comments or quotes only to say that you didn't really mean them or that you didn't really believe them and that you were just trying to make a point.
> 
> Where my curiosity takes over is here...Some try to make the argument that God doesn't exist, and then they almost take it back with a disclaimer at the end of the post as if to say, "Well, if He does exist, then I want to cover my bases and acknowledge that possibility in case I'm wrong."
> 
> To me that is fascinating.
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier emotionally to just accept that God does exist? I mean, let's say that He does and you accept Him and Christ, what do you have to lose? They both stand for peace, fairness and brotherly love...and good morals.
> 
> I just can't see how you can go wrong.



No. I don't believe in god. I don't care that you do and I think you're wasting a lot of time and life. There?

If people say that there might be the existence of god because their heresy is founded on rationality and logic and because of that they know that they cannot be totally 100% certain that god doesn't exist. I doubt that many of them are doing it to "hedge their bets", they're just on the ball as far as scientific rationality goes. 

To me god stands for control, lies and time wasting. As far as I'm concerned, if you require a "higher power" to make you a good person then there must be something fundamentally wrong with you. Perhaps that's where the power of the Christian religion comes from; if they make people _believe _that they're weak, impotent and immoral without god/Christ/Flying Spaghetti Monster then they will _need_ the church and submit to their control.  I'm just thinking aloud here.


----------



## cev

FlyingBanana said:


> By the way, I respect you for your beliefs.
> 
> I am curious about something though. A lot of you guys have made comments or quotes only to say that you didn't really mean them or that you didn't really believe them and that you were just trying to make a point.
> 
> Where my curiosity takes over is here...Some try to make the argument that God doesn't exist, and then they almost take it back with a disclaimer at the end of the post as if to say, "Well, if He does exist, then I want to cover my bases and acknowledge that possibility in case I'm wrong."
> 
> To me that is fascinating.
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier emotionally to just accept that God does exist? I mean, let's say that He does and you accept Him and Christ, what do you have to lose? They both stand for peace, fairness and brotherly love...and good morals.
> 
> I just can't see how you can go wrong.



Well, that's just not how it works. I can't just wake up one morning and declare "I believe in God now." Well, I could, but I would be lying to myself. You can't just pull belief out of nowhere and personally, I am not wired for that kind of blind faith. Maybe one day, something will happen to change my mind one way or the other, but until then, I am quite content as an agnostic.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Psyclapse said:


> Did you honestly just ask what would be the point of doing good in the world if there was no salvation waiting for you? Talk about the greediest fucking thing I have ever heard!! You just admitted to only doing good deeds and living an honorable life just so you can get into heaven.
> 
> Edit: On second thought, no... Don't answer that previous question. As Stitch says, I don't want any preaching please.



Holy crap dude, you just keep getting better and better!


----------



## porkchop

I don't believe in God. I was raised by a minister and went to a Baptist church from birth to age 12 without a break. That's my background.

That being said, I don't have a problem with people believing whatever works for them. Some people need religon to reassure them about their fears (self-worth, the right way to live, eternity, ect.)

Doesn't mean that they are weak, stupid, whatever. It's just something they need.

I'm semi-crippled. I walk with a cane somedays, days when I need it.

Here's what I don't do. I don't try to convince people that walking with a cane is "truer". I don't judge people who don't need one. I don't support pro-cane legislation. I sure as hell don't expect that I'll be needing my cane to help me protect my family.(from *what* btw?)

I try to remember these principles when I get preached to/solicited. They help me to be gently assertive the first three times. After that, I threaten them with my cane.


----------



## Psyclapse

porkchop said:


> I don't believe in God. I was raised by a minister and went to a Baptist church from birth to age 12 without a break. That's my background.
> 
> That being said, I don't have a problem with people believing whatever works for them. Some people need religon to reassure them about their fears (self-worth, the right way to live, eternity, ect.)
> 
> Doesn't mean that they are weak, stupid, whatever. It's just something they need.
> 
> I'm semi-crippled. I walk with a cane somedays, days when I need it.
> 
> Here's what I don't do. I don't try to convince people that walking with a cane is "truer". I don't judge people who don't need one. I don't support pro-cane legislation. I sure as hell don't expect that I'll be needing my cane to help me protect my family.(from *what* btw?)
> 
> I try to remember these principles when I get preached to/solicited. They help me to be gently assertive the first three times. After that, I threaten them with my cane.



I'm not gonna lie, that was amazing. I've been saying almost the exact same thing for years... Except I don't walk with a cane. But I did laugh obnoxiously loud at the threatening to beat people with your cane part... All of my co-workers just looked at me as if I'm psycho.



ZeroSignal said:


> Holy crap dude, you just keep getting better and better!



You're going to be my new best friend on ss.org!!


----------



## porkchop

Psyclapse said:


> I'm not gonna lie, that was amazing. I've been saying almost the exact same thing for years... Except I don't walk with a cane. But I did laugh obnoxiously loud at the threatening to beat people with your cane part... All of my co-workers just looked at me as if I'm psycho.
> 
> 
> Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
> Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
> Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
> Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
> Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
> Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."


----------



## ZeroSignal

Psyclapse said:


> You're going to be my new best friend on ss.org!!


----------



## Psyclapse

porkchop said:


> Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
> Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
> Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
> Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
> Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
> Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."



So by the sound of it, and according to the bible even, you're well within your means by beating people with your cane!


----------



## FlyingBanana

Stitch said:


> FlyingBanana take this how you want, but you are the exact reason I detest religion being a communal thing. I hate how your logic must be 'better' than others because you have 'God on your side'.
> 
> Why do you need to share that you have let God into your life? Why are you preaching like you are somehow better? I'm not ragging at you dude, your a nice guy, but your stance on religion just makes me go


 
Well, I am a nice guy. Thanks for the nice comment. 

As far as being preachy, nah. I am just sharing my thoughts with you guys. If you want me to stop because discussions about God are offensive, I'll stop. 

Just let me know.



Psyclapse said:


> So by the sound of it, and according to the bible even, you're well within your means by beating people with your cane!


 
Most of those quotes have to do with raisng your kids. 

How do they apply to beating you.

Next time, post scripture that is relevant to the point you think you are trying to make.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Well, I am a nice guy. Thanks for the nice comment.
> 
> As far as being preachy, nah. I am just sharing my thoughts with you guys. If you want me to stop because discussions about God are offensive, I'll stop.
> 
> Just let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of those quotes have to do with raisng your kids.
> 
> How do they apply to beating you.
> 
> Next time, post scripture that is relevant to the point you think you are trying to make.



But here's the kicker. You're not just sharing your thoughts and beliefs with us, not when you say things like this:



FlyingBanana said:


> I find it pretty sad that all of you can be so vulgar and nonchalant about something so profound as salvation.



And I can guarantee you that none of us who have been debating religion with you find these discussions offensive. The problem lies in the fact that you think you're better than us because of your faith. Because we're all a bunch of godless heathens you feel the need to try and "save" us from the inevitable damnation that awaits us by preaching that Christ is the way to salvation. Well maybe my salvation is on stage, playing my fucking heart out in front of people who enjoy music and just for a little while can drop the petty shit like this at the door and just be human for a night.

And btw, that last post about the scripture porkchop posted sounded a little angry to me. Kind of violent for such a "Christ-like" kind of guy like yourself. 

/thread


----------



## twiztedchild

Let me shed some light on what "GOD' and "Jesus" really Where: 



Jesus: Vampire.

Why? Because he made his followers Drink "His Blood" and yes I know that the Bible says "Drink this wine, for it is my blood" same damn thing if you ask me. 

Then there was the "For this is my Flesh" BS. and finally, he was "Raised from the dead" <----Sounds like a Fucking Vampire to me. 


now for the "GOD"

Aliens.  

Why? Because "GODS" lived in the "Heavens" which back then when everyone was so retarded to thing the Earth was flat they was No space. no other worlds just this floating Hellhole of "God's People"  

and till this day people still see these "GODS" they just started calling them Aliens, because if they said "I have saw the light. I talked to God" they would get thrown in the loony bin quick. however you say "Aliens" then everyone i all like. "Wow, mayby ALIENS do exist. Lets see what this nut job has to say" Case in points. "UFO Hunters" on History Channel.




Disclaimer: I hate GOD I hate Jesus. and I will take over hell when I die. IF it exist  Which it doesn't  Plus the World Ends when I die


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Most of those quotes have to do with raisng your kids.
> 
> How do they apply to beating you.
> 
> Next time, post scripture that is relevant to the point you think you are trying to make.



So you agree that parents should discipline their children by using violence?



twiztedchild said:


> Disclaimer: I hate GOD I hate Jesus. and I will take over hell when I die. IF it exist  Which it doesn't  Plus the World Ends when I die



The last part is true. Sad but true.


----------



## twiztedchild

ZeroSignal said:


> The last part is true. Sad but true.



the world endng part?


----------



## ZeroSignal

twiztedchild said:


> the world endng part?



Aye, that's the one!


----------



## twiztedchild

Yeah. So true. Better hope I dont die for a LOOOOONG time 



but really man, God =Aliens, Jesus=Vampire!!!!


----------



## Daemoniac

ZeroSignal said:


> The last part is true. Sad but true.


 
This is the reason we must keep him alive at all times... we shall entomb him in a golden throne?



twiztedchild said:


> Yeah. So true. Better hope I dont die for a LOOOOONG time


 
We shall entomb you in a Golden throne to keep you barely alive for all eternity...


----------



## ZeroSignal

Demoniac said:


> This is the reason we must keep him alive at all times... we shall entomb him in a golden throne?
> 
> 
> 
> We shall entomb you in a Golden throne to keep you barely alive for all eternity...



Bwah haha! So this is how it all started? I thought James was supposed to conquer the galaxy first though? Until I betray him...


----------



## Daemoniac

And half of my legion will betray him also, so i will be forced to repent forall eternity


----------



## ZeroSignal

Demoniac said:


> And half of my legion will betray him also, so i will be forced to repent forall eternity



Fuckin' Dark Angels. 

We've seriously gotta stop fucking up this thread!


----------



## Daemoniac

yeah... still


----------



## porkchop

ZeroSignal said:


> Fuckin' Dark Angels.
> 
> We've seriously gotta stop fucking up this thread!



It was fucked from the start. It's like a bunch of people dicussing Sumatra who've never been there.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ I agree. Started off as a valid discusison mind you, it just turned into some shitzor finger pointing... lame.
















Now we revive the thread with _CHEESE!!!_


----------



## porkchop

Demoniac said:


> ^ I agree. Started off as a valid discusison mind you, it just turned into some shitzor finger pointing... lame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now we revive the thread with _CHEESE!!!_



What a Friend we have in Cheezus. Cheezus love the little children. Cheezus loves you.


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> This is the reason we must keep him alive at all times... we shall entomb him in a golden throne?
> 
> 
> 
> We shall entomb you in a Golden throne to keep you barely alive for all eternity...



Just make sure there is enuff Pizza and replacement strings and PLEANTY of tasty guitars for me to jam on and I will be fine with being "Entombed in a Golden Throne"


----------



## FlyingBanana

porkchop said:


> It was fucked from the start. It's like a bunch of people dicussing Sumatra who've never been there.


 
Oh stop it now....I've had Sumatra Coffee....isn't that the same as being there?


----------



## Daemoniac

twiztedchild said:


> Just make sure there is enuff Pizza and replacement strings and PLEANTY of tasty guitars for me to jam on and I will be fine with being "Entombed in a Golden Throne"



 Not quite sure you got the "barely alive" part


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> Not quite sure you got the "barely alive" part



 

Fine I would find I Sharp pointy rock and end it all then 


Joking.


----------



## Daemoniac

^_ OH GOD THE WORLD!!!_ Think of the children!! _Please_ THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> ^_ OH GOD THE WORLD!!!_ Think of the children!! _Please_ THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!









I dont know why but that made me thing of that one gay song about "We're all gods little children" or what ever the hell it is


----------



## FlyingBanana

Cmon...let's stop with the mockery of religion please. Some of us have it.

We don't go around mocking your beliefs in uhhh....what was that you believed in? 

bbwwaahhaaahhhaa  

Let's pass some love around here for a change...instead of the cynicism.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Cmon...let's stop with the mockery of religion please. Some of us have it.
> 
> We don't go around mocking your beliefs in uhhh....what was that you believed in?
> 
> bbwwaahhaaahhhaa
> 
> Let's pass some love around here for a change...instead of the cynicism.



What mockery?


----------



## FlyingBanana

ZeroSignal said:


> What mockery?


 
Well, I don't really know.

How about, "What a Friend we have in Cheezus. Cheezus love the little children. Cheezus loves you."

for one. 

It's not that I am sensitive, but there are a lot of dark humor type comments and jokes about God and religion on the site. Is it really necessary for guitar and amp discussion?

By all means, let's talk about religion, but enough of the lowbrow anti Christian humor.  I'm just sayin.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Well, I don't really know.
> 
> How about, "What a Friend we have in Cheezus. Cheezus love the little children. Cheezus loves you."
> 
> for one.
> 
> It's not that I am sensitive, but there are a lot of dark humor type comments and jokes about God and religion on the site. Is it really necessary for guitar and amp discussion?
> 
> By all means, let's talk about religion, but enough of the lowbrow anti Christian humor.  I'm just sayin.



 Yeah, that was a pretty funny joke about _cheese_. 

What's dark about religious jokes? I think there's a film you should see; it's called The Life of Brian. 


This is The Lounge forum. It's where people discuss relatively serious issues about anything. And I really don't think that the sense of humour being displayed in this thread is "anti-Christian", that's like saying that Bill Bailey's humour is unpatriotic and anti-British. 

EDIT: Speaking of The Lounge forum, I think we should really stop joking about cheese and Warhammer and continue the thread in a constructive manner.


----------



## FlyingBanana

ehhhhh....whatever.

Recent neg rep:
Oh lighten up, religious nutjob. 

I just love the neg feedback you guys leave me. Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and stick it up your.....hahaha.

Nothing better to do....kids will be kids.


----------



## bulletbass man

When I die I'll likely be dead.

Who knows maybe I'll become a zombie. But i'll be pretty pissed if that happens. Other than the fact that I can walk at an extremely slow pace and no body will say hey speed up they'll just say please don't eat me and rather than quickly walk away they'll be idiots and stand there while I eat them.

Yeah being a zombie would be boring as hell. But being dead is likely fairly boring as well.


----------



## FlyingBanana

bulletbass man said:


> When I die I'll likely be dead.
> 
> Who knows maybe I'll become a zombie. But i'll be pretty pissed if that happens. Other than the fact that I can walk at an extremely slow pace and no body will say hey speed up they'll just say please don't eat me and rather than quickly walk away they'll be idiots and stand there while I eat them.
> 
> Yeah being a zombie would be boring as hell. But being dead is likely fairly boring as well.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> ehhhhh....whatever.
> 
> Recent neg rep:
> Oh lighten up, religious nutjob.
> 
> I just love the neg feedback you guys leave me. Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and stick it up your.....hahaha.
> 
> Nothing better to do....kids will be kids.



Well... if I'm reading that correctly then that was a neg rep from Metal Ken, one of the mods. It says it if you hover over the last smiley with your cursor. Then again, anyone could have used it.


----------



## cev

Yeah, I doubt it was Metal Ken who sent that. Anyone can use that smiley, it's just named after him.


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana said:


> ehhhhh....whatever.
> 
> Recent neg rep:
> Oh lighten up, religious nutjob.
> 
> I just love the neg feedback you guys leave me. Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and stick it up your.....hahaha.
> 
> Nothing better to do....kids will be kids.



Actually, atheists make fun of each other as well.

Whoops.

Jeff


----------



## twiztedchild

FlyingBanana said:


> ehhhhh....whatever.
> 
> Recent neg rep:
> Oh lighten up, religious nutjob.
> 
> I just love the neg feedback you guys leave me. Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and stick it up your.....hahaha.
> 
> Nothing better to do....kids will be kids.





that is childish. I know I'm acting like one by saying that the world ends when I die but it was a joke. Anywho, at least FlyingBanana isn't trying to get us to believe in his religion just trying to make us understand that alot of people do believe in it  And could be offended by it. But most of us here dont follow the same believes.

I met some people in Florida that would try to make you believe what they believed or you were some Devil worshiper. My sister in law and her sister are two of them  My sister-in-law stopped though because she realized I didn't believe in that stuff and I wasn't going to change my mind. HER sister still trys to get me to "Change My Ways" I'm not Killing anyone, I'm not Stealing from anyone, I'm not "Coveting, Thy Neighbors Wife" 


So really what does it matter? Hell I dont even go and Murder off some whores either that is like what 3 major sins


----------



## Daemoniac

twiztedchild said:


> So really what does it matter? Hell I dont even go and Murder off some whores either that is like what 3 major sins


----------



## Naren

ZeroSignal said:


> Well... if I'm reading that correctly then that was a neg rep from Metal Ken, one of the mods. It says it if you hover over the last smiley with your cursor. Then again, anyone could have used it.



Jason, I think, is the only dude who signs his posts with his emoticon. And I seriously doubt Metal Ken would call him a "religious nut job." Personally I've used  in signing positive reps. Not in neg reps, though. But that's because I am Metal Ken.


----------



## djpharoah

I believe that my soul will go up to a place where it will be judged based on how I have lived my life. From there it either rises up towards eternal light (heaven) or plummets towards eternal darkness (hell).

Here's to hoping I ascend instead of descend.


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


>



 that sentence was THAT funny??


----------



## Daemoniac

Man, im so fucking tired. I havent slept properly in about a week, and ive had 3 V's and a 1.25 litre bottle of coke to counter the tiredness... _everything's_ funny


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> Man, im so fucking tired. I havent slept properly in about a week, and ive had 3 V's and a 1.25 litre bottle of coke to counter the tiredness... _everything's_ funny



 so true.


----------



## Daemoniac




----------



## Thrashmanzac

hopefully when i die it will be just like the end credits of a really awesome movie, where the cast of my life scrolls down, then if there are no funny bloopers to watch i will turn the credits off and that will be it


----------



## twiztedchild

Thrashmanzac said:


> hopefully when i die it will be just like the end credits of a really awesome movie, where the cast of my life scrolls down, then if there are no funny bloopers to watch i will turn the credits off and that will be it





That would be awesome


----------



## XeoFLCL

djpharoah said:


> I believe that my soul will go up to a place where it will be judged based on how I have lived my life. From there it either rises up towards eternal light (heaven) or plummets towards eternal darkness (hell).
> 
> Here's to hoping I ascend instead of descend.


Pretty much how I look at it. I'm no major christian or anything, but I do believe in there being a greater power, and that we're here for a reason. Reason being to help others and find happiness in a content state of mind in the meantime by doing so.


----------



## hairychris

JBroll said:


> Actually, atheists make fun of each other as well.
> 
> Whoops.
> 
> Jeff



A moron's a moron, whatever colour their shirt is...  Or whether it's imaginary or not...


----------



## ZeroSignal

hairychris said:


> A moron's a moron, whatever colour their shirt is...  Or whether it's imaginary or not...



Whaaaa...?


----------



## FlyingBanana

ZeroSignal said:


> Well... if I'm reading that correctly then that was a neg rep from Metal Ken, one of the mods. It says it if you hover over the last smiley with your cursor. Then again, anyone could have used it.


 

Trying to stir up the pot again I see.....


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Trying to stir up the pot again I see.....



I beg your pardon?


----------



## FlyingBanana

ZeroSignal said:


> I beg your pardon?


----------



## vampiregenocide

Seriously, I reckon its like being high. People say they see a bright light of Jesus or anything I think that you hallucinate as your brain starts to shut down, and its liek, last one out get the lights sorta thing.


----------



## ZeroSignal

vampiregenocide said:


> Seriously, I reckon its like being high. People say they see a bright light of Jesus or anything I think that you hallucinate as your brain starts to shut down, and its liek, last one out get the lights sorta thing.



Of course, it's possible. 

As the brain is starved of oxygen in an emergency surgery situation then surely they would hallucinate to some degree. And people react/interpret differently to those rare situations so they might think that they're seeing heaven or something. I'm not sure, it's just a theory... Anyone else?


----------



## JBroll

It would be very surprising if someone raised far away from Christianity saw Jesus and discovered his message without ever having seen or believed in it; it seems, however, that people simply hallucinate whatever they're most inclined to believe (or have the most exposure to) when they're shutting down.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

^ that seems to make a lot of sense to me.


----------



## FlyingBanana

I'd like to make an observation if I may.....

I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.

The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee. 

No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either. 

I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things. 

Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?


----------



## Daemoniac

No


----------



## Naren

FlyingBanana said:


> Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?



That's called "living in fear" and results in a "I believe in God and Jesus because I'm afraid that I will go to hell if I die and don't believe in God" mentality. And I grew up in a VERY strongly Christian home, went to church every week, went to a Christian junior high and high school, and know the Bible inside and out, but I have zero reason to believe in God.

I don't believe in something simply because I want to. I believe in something because I have a reason to believe in it. If "God" came and spoke to me, then I would believe in him, but he's never done that (Why? I think he hasn't done so because there IS no "he").

You're suggesting living a lifestyle worshipping God and Jesus, even though you don't believe he exists (I don't). I cannot believe that there could be a God so cruel and sick that he could create people simply to send them to an eternity of suffering and pain in Hell without once telling them that their ridiculously short existance on Earth was a game or telling them the rules to this game ("You have to believe in me and my son to win, but I'm not going to reveal myself to you. I'm only going to show myself to the Jews and then later the Europeans -- and make most of the people high up in the religion corrupt"). So, you end up dying having never heard of God and, even though you lived a better life than most Christians, you are doomed to an eternity in Hell for not knowing the rules to the game or the goal. 

I believed in God when I was a kid because it's what my parents told me, but when I started thinking "How could God send 99.9&#37; of that country's population to Hell?" when I was in junior high (as an example: less than 0.1% of Japan's population is Christian/Catholic) and I had two choices to believe: God is either evil or God doesn't exist. And I can't believe in an evil God. As I studied astronomy, logic, and other such fields, I found zero reasons to point to God or an afterlife.

I find it condescending how you act like anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus is being manipulated by "the devil" and the idea that you should just believe in God and follow Jesus in case there IS a Heaven and Hell. Hey. Either you believe it or you don't. It's not something I CHOOSE to believe in. I believe what seems logical and real to me.


----------



## Daemoniac

Not if it means i incorrectly replace the word "than" with "then".


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana, you're already assuming your position and that doesn't give you *any* insight whatsoever into anything. I don't need instant gratification. I don't go raping babies while intoning chants to Satan. Christianity just makes positively no sense at all to me, and until you realize what's actually being said there you really have no idea what's going on.

As for the last statement... you're neglecting the literally uncountably many possibilities of OTHER gods - including uncountably many that hate Christianity - and the entirety of Pascal's Wager (the tactic you're using in hopes that nobody will think about it and realize it's a failure) is hedging a bet with a fear-based 'might as well' without actually thinking things through, and even if your god did exist as you believe there's no conclusive evidence whatsoever to nudge a sufficiently skeptical nonbeliever in its direction.

But what about the downside of believing in a specific religion solely based on the off chance that it may be right? Well, you can say goodbye to reason, sanity, and anything remotely resembling intellectual integrity if you pretend to hold a belief solely on the basis of fear and inability to trust your own judgment.

Jeff


----------



## FlyingBanana

JBroll said:


> FlyingBanana, you're already assuming your position and that doesn't give you *any* insight whatsoever into anything. I don't need instant gratification. I don't go raping babies while intoning chants to Satan. Christianity just makes positively no sense at all to me, and until you realize what's actually being said there you really have no idea what's going on.
> 
> As for the last statement... you're neglecting the literally uncountably many possibilities of OTHER gods - including uncountably many that hate Christianity - and the entirety of Pascal's Wager (the tactic you're using in hopes that nobody will think about it and realize it's a failure) is hedging a bet with a fear-based 'might as well' without actually thinking things through, and even if your god did exist as you believe there's no conclusive evidence whatsoever to nudge a sufficiently skeptical nonbeliever in its direction.
> 
> But what about the downside of believing in a specific religion solely based on the off chance that it may be right? Well, you can say goodbye to reason, sanity, and anything remotely resembling intellectual integrity if you pretend to hold a belief solely on the basis of fear and inability to trust your own judgment.
> 
> Jeff


 

Say what you will.


I believe in God and accept Christ as my Savior...quite simply. 

I do not live in "fear" as you mentioned. 

I live this life and work hard and practice my guitar like it's going out of style, but I also put all of my faith in Jesus Christ that He will guide me down the correct path and help me make good decisions and raise my children properly so that they don't have to suffer because of what they weren't taught.

Also, putting your faith in God, there is no more worry about world issues such as global this and war that and hate this and all that negative stuff that the media conglomerates are always trying to force down everyone's throats.
There's no fear because having faith in Him eliminates it. 

Quite simply, I am nothing without Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in my life. I fully accept it and proudly confess it to others. I'm truly sorry if that bothers you. On the other hand, if it does, than maybe you are just afraid of relinquishing that so-called "control" over your life to God. It's not a difficult or bad thing...

and the only thing that will happen is that you will finally be free from guilt, from sin and from the crap going on in this world..of which you have no control anyway.


----------



## Naren

FlyingBanana said:


> Say what you will.
> 
> 
> I believe in God and accept Christ as my Savior...quite simply.
> 
> I do not live in "fear" as you mentioned.
> 
> I live this life and work hard and practice my guitar like it's going out of style, but I also put all of my faith in Jesus Christ that He will guide me down the correct path and help me make good decisions and raise my children properly so that they don't have to suffer because of what they weren't taught.
> 
> Also, putting your faith in God, there is no more worry about world issues such as global this and war that and hate this and all that negative stuff that the media conglomerates are always trying to force down everyone's throats.
> There's no fear because having faith in Him eliminates it.
> 
> Quite simply, I am nothing without Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in my life. I fully accept it and proudly confess it to others. I'm truly sorry if that bothers you. On the other hand, if it does, than maybe you are just afraid of relinquishing that so-called "control" over your life to God. It's not a difficult or bad thing...
> 
> and the only thing that will happen is that you will finally be free from guilt, from sin and from the crap going on in this world..of which you have no control anyway.



Read my post on the past page. The post addresses a lot of what you are talking about here. JBroll, like me, does not worry about relinquishing control to what we believe to be a fairy tale. I would, of course, not want to give control over to an imaginary idea. My mom, who is a big Christian, thinks that people who don't believe in God are being rebellious against him. I don't really understand how I'm being rebellious against something I don't see any evidence or reason for existing.

It is fine for you to believe in Jesus, but you are being very condescending to those who don't believe. You are treating us like we are weak, when YOU are the one who is "nothing without Jesus/God." 

And if your God is going to send your children to Hell if you didn't tell them about him, what kind of a God is he? I can respect people's beliefs, but I will challenge them if they challenge me. 

All of my points are in the post at the end of the last page.


----------



## Daemoniac

FlyingBanana said:


> Say what you will.
> 
> 
> I believe in God and accept Christ as my Savior...quite simply.
> 
> I do not live in "fear" as you mentioned.
> 
> I live this life and work hard and practice my guitar like it's going out of style, but I also put all of my faith in Jesus Christ that He will guide me down the correct path and help me make good decisions and raise my children properly so that they don't have to suffer because of what they weren't taught.
> 
> Also, putting your faith in God, there is no more worry about world issues such as global this and war that and hate this and all that negative stuff that the media conglomerates are always trying to force down everyone's throats.
> There's no fear because having faith in Him eliminates it.
> 
> Quite simply, I am nothing without Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in my life. I fully accept it and proudly confess it to others. I'm truly sorry if that bothers you. On the other hand, if it does, than maybe you are just afraid of relinquishing that so-called "control" over your life to God. It's not a difficult or bad thing...
> 
> and the only thing that will happen is that you will finally be free from guilt, from sin and from the crap going on in this world..of which you have no control anyway.



Im free from guilt without God.

What more do i need?

Should i thank god that my parents abused me physically, emotionally, and mentally? Should i say it was "gods will" that my sister was a junkie at age 15? Should i accept that it was "gods will" that my brother is probably going to die alone on the street cos hes an asshole?

No.

I come from an INCREDIBLY religious family. In fact, my father (who, incidentally i dont speak to anymore) is looking to become a monk (Christian one...). Fuck what you think because despite your beliefs, you have no _understanding_ of the world or anything on it. And you dont care, because "its gods will, and the devil getting to us"

Fuck you.


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana, I have no problem with you believing the way you do.

The problem I have is that you're trying to convince others. The problem you have is total incompetence and an amazing inability to formulate rational arguments.

Even with faith in your favorite fairy tale there are still very serious issues in the world and it's on us to try to fix them. If your god cares about humanity he'd probably have to appreciate someone who actually helped others more than someone who just paid him lip service at church and on message boards; if your god doesn't care about humanity, it can simply go fuck itself.

Again, I'm not arguing with your beliefs, I'm arguing with your completely brainwashed statements about how I'm taking the easy way out and how it's better to believe in something on the off chance that it might be true. If you simply say that you believe something then you're fine, but you started proselytizing the minute you came here and that is a recipe for disaster. 

Believe whatever the hell you want, just don't shove it on other people. 

First, you're truly just terrible at it - you're more likely to turn people away. 

Second, you don't realize it (and this is part of the problem) but everything you're saying is hilariously condescending and insulting. You're assuming that several people have never seen your half-assed arguments before, and that as a result we'll start believing everything you say because we're so amazed at your ability to almost form a complete sentence. If someone wants me to believe in Jesus (a supposedly divine figure completely absent from secular histories who sacrificed himself to himself via atrocities he programmed into his own favorite species so that he could change his mind about his own punishments for his own rules for his own creation, because he's fucking omnipotent and can just do that sort of thing) without some serious reworkings I have no choice to conclude that an insult to my intelligence is being attempted. If you don't understand why your posts, specifically the parts including 'taking the easy way out' and Pascal's Wager are condescending, shut up until you do and we'll all be much better off.

Third, the posters here are more than a little familiar with your religion, so you don't need to announce everything in such mind-numbing detail and repetetetetetetitivity as if it were a new fucking idea. For fuck's sake, it's over two thousand years old, the most common religion in the parts of the world the majority of board members hail from, and generally pretty straightforward as soon as you throw 'Jesus' into the mix. Ignoring the ambiguity present in your reference to 'Christ', a pretty generic term that could refer to your mythical deity or a blessed hockey stick, you can do just fine with saying you believe in fucking Jesus. Again, if you don't see why this is annoying and condescending, shut up until you do.

Finally... just in case you're as dense as you seem, I am *not* bothered by your beliefs. I think they're positively absurd, but I will still gladly fight whatever it takes for your right to hold them. I do not like your condescending preachy bullshit. That is all. Do not attempt to read any farther into this, because if past posts are any indication at all of your abilities you will simply get it all completely wrong. Quit trying to convert people (if any motivation beyond 'try not to be an annoying twat' is needed, you're more likely to make people think your beliefs are stupid than to convert them so you're really doing your beliefs a favor by not shoving them at people) and everything will be fine.

Jeff


----------



## Thrashmanzac

FlyingBanana said:


> I'd like to make an observation if I may.....
> 
> I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.
> 
> The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee.
> 
> No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either.
> 
> I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things.
> 
> Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?



sorry but this post really bothers me.
how can you say someone else path is easyer than your own, or suggest that a path that is not your own is that of the devil?
instant gratification? the reason i am an atheist is because i am not searching for instant gratification, i kow there are books with instant answers out there that will happily tell me what to do, and how things work, but i beleive nothing yet holds all the answers. maybe nothing ever will.
and dude, is it just me, or is it every time a topic comes up that is even remotely linked to religion you start preaching your condesending "healthy christian lifestyle" to us all.
i have nothing against religion, just people that force their religion on others.


back on topic:
i hope my death is not like vanila sky... or the second half of it anyway


----------



## hairychris

Ask yourself this question, if you're a believer in _x_:

Would you do whatever the hell (chortle) you liked with no regards for the consequences if you didn't have your religion?

Answer = No. You don't need religion as a moral base.
Answer = Yes. You are an immoral person who only responds to base threats.

QED.

FWIW Flyingbanana certainly doesn't worry me. His statements are to incoherent for that! 

I'm working on the assumption that there's nothing. I just hope to avoid a painful transition!


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Say what you will.
> 
> 
> I believe in God and accept Christ as my Savior...quite simply.
> 
> I do not live in "fear" as you mentioned.
> 
> I live this life and work hard and practice my guitar like it's going out of style, but I also put all of my faith in Jesus Christ that He will guide me down the correct path and help me make good decisions and raise my children properly so that they don't have to suffer because of what they weren't taught.
> 
> Also, putting your faith in God, there is no more worry about world issues such as global this and war that and hate this and all that negative stuff that the media conglomerates are always trying to force down everyone's throats.
> There's no fear because having faith in Him eliminates it.
> 
> Quite simply, I am nothing without Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in my life. I fully accept it and proudly confess it to others. I'm truly sorry if that bothers you. On the other hand, if it does, than maybe you are just afraid of relinquishing that so-called "control" over your life to God. It's not a difficult or bad thing...
> 
> and the only thing that will happen is that you will finally be free from guilt, from sin and from the crap going on in this world..of which you have no control anyway.



This is all so hypocritical and redundant.

You say you don't live in fear but what's this I always hear about uber-Christians saying, "I'm a God-fearing Christian"? Did you not get that memo? Did God say that it's ok for just this one guy not to fear me plunging him into eternal darkness just because I want to?

If anyone remembers the story of Job (pronounced Jobe) God is a sick and twisted individual and that's why his followers are taught to fear him so don't tell me you don't live in fear because your God is actually bi-polar.

And why would I ever want to give up control of my life? A few people did that a couple hundred years ago, it was called slavery, if memory serves me, that didn't work out too well. I like having control over my life and not being a mindless drone who feels the need to preach to people on webforums about salvation and the devil. Go to a Christian forum and discuss this nonsense you sheep.


----------



## hairychris

Aye... saying that you're 'nothing' without your belief is a bit screwy IMO...

Dunno about you but I'm a sentient being who is well adjusted enough to have his own moral compass. I'll leave the 'sense of worth' part out due to depression, but hey!


----------



## Psyclapse

^^^Exactly!!

And I've met many a "God-fearing Christian" with depression, anxiety and a mountain of other mental issues... Not to mention alcoholism and other chemical dependencies. Shouldn't God take those diseases away from his children if they're faithful enough?

EDIT: Didn't realize I'd be shoved to the next page on that one!!


----------



## Kakaka

When people die their souls go to a place of waiting until the final judgement.

A place of torment for those who chose evil, another place, of rest, for those who chose good.

After the final judgement, some are eternally separated from God and others will forever live with Him, knowing Him in His Glory and Might.

Within this last group, some will reign with God and His Son, Jesus, the Christ, and some won't.

And aside from all these, there will be some newly born people who won't be mortals, because with the final judgement, death had been destroyed.
These will live by the light of God.


----------



## vampiregenocide

I find the whole concept of religion just weird. I don't see why you need a book or invisible deity to tell you how to live your life. I think theres things we can learn from religion, especially Islam and Buddhism, but in general to me, religion is like worshipping Harry Potter. The afterlife is irrelevant. the now is what is most important. Who you are, how you treat people need not be governed by any book or religion. Share ideas by all means, but don't depend on something that has no evidence of being to give you strength. You make your own choices and when you pull through something, its pure determination. Thats something no God, if indeed there is one, could possibly comprehend.

I hope there is an afterlife, a heightened state of conciousness. But I'm going to enjoy my current life before my afterlife.

I'm going to stop now...


----------



## CrashRG

ive had many a conversation about god, the after-life, and religion with my younger brother. He is a very religious person, and when he "found" god, he was quite a pain in the ass with shoving it down everyone's throat. Even more to me, because he knows i question faith and religion. He preached to me constantly at that time, more so because I was dealing with alot of problems (horrible break up, death of a friend, lost my job) and I chose to fuck, fight, and booze my way through my problems.

The main point that I am getting at is, I am SO sick of seeing people who are religious saying that those who are not, are a lost cause, and cannot possibly live a worthy life, even alienating their own family members. My brother is a religious person who see's things differently. He accepts that I have not chosen religion, but he stands by me as my brother, and offers help and positive words when needed. 

I once asked him, "what if I'm wrong, and have been wrong my entire life? What if there is a God, and a Heaven? Am I screwed because I didnt choose religion? Will this God keep me from my family in the afterlife if I was wrong?"

My brothers answer?

"I don't think God would discriminate like that when it came down to it. You live a good life, even though you made your mistakes in your past, you're a good person. I don't see God doing that to someone, who although not a religious believer, has for the majority walked a path that I see as right. You take care of your wife, you love her. You love your family members, And you do the right things and make the right choices in life. I believe that when it comes down to the final judgement, those are the things that will matter. The life that you led, and your love for those closest to you."


----------



## Kakaka

Psyclapse said:


> ^^^Exactly!!
> 
> And I've met many a "God-fearing Christian" with depression, anxiety and a mountain of other mental issues... Not to mention alcoholism and other chemical dependencies. Shouldn't God take those diseases away from his children if they're faithful enough?
> 
> EDIT: Didn't realize I'd be shoved to the next page on that one!!



I can't tell if you're really asking or just mocking or both, but I'll answer, assuming you accept this is a discussion.

God is life. One walks in his presence, one has life.

Death is the absence of and opposition to life, that is, God.

Assuming those you mentioned really were 'faithful enough God-fearing christians', they are still humans, mortal sinners born from mortal sinners, they still live in this mortal coil. Only after death is destroyed all imperfection will be completely taken away. Until that, diseases and other curses will cause suffering every now and then, either as part of God's chastening for education or for merely walking away from life.


I've seen some lots of hostility and disrespect for my bud FlyingBanana from some forumites. That's not a display of rationality and tolerance. Naren kept it very respectful, though he opposed Flying's posts, congrats to him.


----------



## FlyingBanana

I have read these last posts and some have mentioned this "fear" of God. I do not subscribe to that kind of thinking, and as a result, I certainly don't consider myself in line with mainstream Christianity, in fact, I don't find very many redeeming features in Orthodox Christianity. 

The reason that I don't live in fear of God like many Christians preach is because if you truly live your life in the light instead of in the dark by having those good qualities God talks of such as...

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 

...and if one tries not to sin AND accept the Holy Spirit into their heart, there is a forgiveness of that sin and the above good things will be the result. This is because as a person who is forgiven of their sins, has a new inner peace and is no longer subject to that fear. 

Basically, the only people who live in fear of God are those who live by the law of the old testament, or first covenant. So as an example, if one were to willfully go and commit a murder and not be repentent, they are subject to the law and will pay the price. This first covenant was a covenant under the law. Remember...an eye for an eye. With the advent of Christ, we are to enter into a new covenant, a covenant of forgiveness. You know...love your enemy. Also, with this new covenant, because there is a forgiveness of sin, and because of the grace given to us to make up for our human side, we are no longer judged by the law...because we no longer sin, or rather our sins are not counted against us anymore. 

I am not speaking of those who willfully go out and sin on purpose, but the accidental sinner...one who makes the occasional mistake in life because he is human. God knows all our hearts.


----------



## Psyclapse

^^^ These are reasonable posts. All we've asked from the start is that you calmly explain your beliefs and why you feel that way, not attack someone for feeling different than you or detail what will happen to them if they don't accept your ways. I'll admit, I may have come off a little dick-ish here and there but I'm not going to apologize. People on this forum are very smart (thankfully) and if you post something contradictory/hypocritical/too much sand in your vagina, you're going to get called out... And that's all I've done. I can't speak for everyone else but none of this discussion has gotten completely out of hand to the point of issuing bans.

We're all very tolerant actually, we just don't like being told what to do.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Psyclapse said:


> ^^^ These are reasonable posts. All we've asked from the start is that you calmly explain your beliefs and why you feel that way, not attack someone for feeling different than you or detail what will happen to them if they don't accept your ways. I'll admit, I may have come off a little dick-ish here and there but I'm not going to apologize. People on this forum are very smart (thankfully) and if you post something contradictory/hypocritical/too much sand in your vagina, you're going to get called out... And that's all I've done. I can't speak for everyone else but none of this discussion has gotten completely out of hand to the point of issuing bans.
> 
> We're all very tolerant actually, we just don't like being told what to do.


 
That's a fair post. 

However, I am not trying to force anyone to accept my ways. God gave us all a mind and a conscience. It's up to each of us to make proper use of them. 

And please, I am not attacking anyone. That is how mainstream Christianity would be. Again, they would have you FEAR God no matter what. 

And "everyone" here is entitled to their opinions. I will never and haven't attacked anyone on their beliefs and said "you are going to hell." God tells us not to judge any man's heart for only he and God know what is in it. What we can do however, is call out a person on the basis of their actions. If someone is purposefully doing something we know is wrong, or being vengeful or otherwise wronging another individual, I feel it's our moral duty to step in and confront that person. We can potentially save him a lot of grief. 

In my opinion, this is very healthy discussion and we can all benefit from getting involved in it. 

I would like to ask that some of you who are posting f words in this thread refrain from doing so. We welcome your opinions without the hostility.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

I can't force myself to believe in God though. It's just impossible. So basically I have no chance of salvation and I'm automatically going to burn in hell for eternity when I die? That's absurd, and given that God is supposed to be all knowing (which automatically rules out any chance of "free will" since he already knows what's going to happen) that means he created me for the sole purpose of damning me to an eternity of torment.

Umm...yeah, you guys can keep your God. I respect your right to worship it, but all I ask is that you guys respect our right NOT to.

Most poeple on both sides of the fence are condescending, Christians usually act superior, like they "get it" and we don't, that we're the poor sinners, or lost souls, or have some void that needs filling. Atheists are pretty condescending too, because we can't figure out how you guys buy into it.

Personally, I do what I want, when I want to, whether that means getting instant gratification, or working towards a long term goal. I don't need a deity to draw personal strength from, I get it all from myself. I rely only on myself, and I get a great deal of personal satisfaction from that. One could argue that Christians are indeed the ones who are after the "instant gratification" by blindly believing in a book and not worrying about anything.

And this isn't so much a debate, because I'm not looking to change your beliefs, because I know if I actually had physical, unarguable proof that God didn't exist (which yes, I know is impossible) you would still not believe me. I'm just giving my thoughts on the whole thing.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> That's a fair post.
> 
> However, I am not trying to force anyone to accept my ways. God gave us all a mind and a conscience. It's up to each of us to make proper use of them.
> 
> And please, I am not attacking anyone. That is how mainstream Christianity would be. Again, they would have you FEAR God no matter what.
> 
> And "everyone" here is entitled to their opinions. I will never and haven't attacked anyone on their beliefs and said "you are going to hell." God tells us not to judge any man's heart for only he and God know what is in it. What we can do however, is call out a person on the basis of their actions. If someone is purposefully doing something we know is wrong, or being vengeful or otherwise wronging another individual, I feel it's our moral duty to step in and confront that person. We can potentially save him a lot of grief.
> 
> In my opinion, this is very healthy discussion and we can all benefit from getting involved in it.
> 
> I would like to ask that some of you who are posting f words in this thread refrain from doing so. We welcome your opinions without the hostility.



Kind of like a "You have your orders and I have mine" kind of thing.

Ironically enough, even though I've been debating it tooth and nail, I respect Christians. Maybe not so much the ones who cling to every word of the Old Testament and protest on issues like gay marriage/abortion, but it takes a lot of conviction and swallowing pride at times to have strong faith in (the Christian) God. Now that's not to say that I'm chomping at the bit to accept Christ into my life because there are quite a few things I disagree with in the bible, but those who have been saved (Not sure if they like that term or not) have made a life-altering decision and to stick to it for eternity takes some balls.

On the other hand, if you feel the need to tell me I need Jesus in my life, then we've got problems.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Psyclapse said:


> Kind of like a "You have your orders and I have mine" kind of thing.
> 
> Ironically enough, even though I've been debating it tooth and nail, I respect Christians. Maybe not so much the ones who cling to every word of the Old Testament and protest on issues like gay marriage/abortion, but it takes a lot of conviction and swallowing pride at times to have strong faith in (the Christian) God. Now that's not to say that I'm chomping at the bit to accept Christ into my life because there are quite a few things I disagree with in the bible, but those who have been saved (Not sure if they like that term or not) have made a life-altering decision and to stick to it for eternity takes some balls.
> 
> On the other hand, if you feel the need to tell me I need Jesus in my life, then we've got problems.


 
You need Jesus period. 

Just teasing...but no really.

Still friends?


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> You need Jesus period.
> 
> Just teasing...but no really.
> 
> Still friends?



Of course, what kind of jerk would I be if I discriminated against someone simply because of his/her beliefs?

The main thing is is that this is Sevenstring.org, we all share a common belief in that playing guitar is one of life's most rewarding treasures, no matter your ethnicity, religion, gender or ideas of cannibalism...

[cheesy PSA music] The more you know!


----------



## Daemoniac

FlyingBanana said:


> However, I am not trying to force anyone to accept my ways. God gave us all a mind and a conscience. It's up to each of us to make proper use of them.
> ...
> 
> And "everyone" here is entitled to their opinions. I will never and haven't attacked anyone on their beliefs and said "you are going to hell." God tells us not to judge any man's heart for only he and God know what is in it. What we can do however, is call out a person on the basis of their actions. If someone is purposefully doing something we know is wrong, or being vengeful or otherwise wronging another individual, I feel it's our moral duty to step in and confront that person. We can potentially save him a lot of grief.
> 
> In my opinion, this is very healthy discussion and we can all benefit from getting involved in it.
> 
> I would like to ask that some of you who are posting f words in this thread refrain from doing so. We welcome your opinions without the hostility.



My apologies for the rash swearing, but i stand by it. I also note that you completely ignored everything i posted, so lets try it again without the obscenities:

My dad is ridiculously religious. He was never as bad when i was younger, but the last 9 years have been messed up. He is now, instead of moving through the echelons of the church, looking to become a monk and give up all his worldly possessions. He abused me, my brother and my mother emotionally and physically for over 15 years. I dont believe in God anymore.



> Also, putting your faith in God, there is no more worry about world issues such as global this and war that and hate this and all that negative stuff that the media conglomerates are always trying to force down everyone's throats.
> There's no fear because having faith in Him eliminates it.
> 
> Quite simply, I am nothing without Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in my life. I fully accept it and proudly confess it to others. I'm truly sorry if that bothers you. On the other hand, if it does, than maybe you are just afraid of relinquishing that so-called "control" over your life to God. It's not a difficult or bad thing...



_THIS_ is the statement that got me. In every post you are like "surely you should praise jebus, just to be sure?", and you're trying to tell me that theres no negativity if you do? No. I did, and i was emotionally, physically, and mentally abused by my parents. Mainly my dad. 



> I'd like to make an observation if I may.....
> 
> I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.
> 
> The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee.
> 
> No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either.
> 
> I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things.
> 
> Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?



This was another one. By this statement you are basically calling everyone on here a Satanist due to their lack of belief in Christ, because apparently we are all after "instant gratification". I can tell you now that this statement just shows you as a truly _truly_ immature person with very little understanding of the world. I look for no 'instant' gratification, in this life i look for some form off happiness, but you call that "instant gratification?". 

Apparently im possessed by the devil though, because when i woke up night after night to screaming in the house, and to the same guilt trips for 5 years and then had enough of it and wanted it to end, i was after _instant gratification_. I stopped 'believing' in God when i was 7. It seemed stupid. My point in all of this? Dont post stuff like that and then take offense to the replies. I was wrong to get so aggravated, BUT, the amount of emotional issues im still dealing with (or trying to) is massive, and i got really angry when i saw that, _especially_ after what everyone had already said to you about you preaching your values again and again...

Think of it as an apology of sorts, but not.


----------



## Brendan G

I've had a conversation about Christianity recently, I posted an article on the internet recently basically renouncing my faith and explaining why. A guy who is absurdly Christian tried to basically convert me for almost 2 hours! 
So allow me to put forth my thoughts on the topics quickly. What really gets me is, what happens if someone lives their life exactly like the Jefferson bible (Thomas Jefferson took a Christian bible and took out all references of God so he could have a good code of ethics) what then? (I believe Naren already covered this)
I think that religions prime purpose is to comfort people when they or others die, and answer the fundamental questions (Why are we here? Where did we come from? etc.) and there is no physical evidence to prove that any supernatural being exists. In fact there is many things that I believe are reasons why a God can't exist (genocide anyone?)
Also (from the perspective of a healthy [I think] 16 year old) I don't need anything to comfort me when it comes to death, I have accepted it as a natural part of life. I have probably repeated what many others have said but I thought I should join the discussion


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> My apologies for the rash swearing, but i stand by it. I also note that you completely ignored everything i posted, so lets try it again without the obscenities:
> 
> My dad is ridiculously religious. He was never as bad when i was younger, but the last 9 years have been messed up. He is now, instead of moving through the echelons of the church, looking to become a monk and give up all his worldly possessions. He abused me, my brother and my mother emotionally and physically for over 15 years. I dont believe in God anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> _THIS_ is the statement that got me. In every post you are like "surely you should praise jebus, just to be sure?", and you're trying to tell me that theres no negativity if you do? No. I did, and i was emotionally, physically, and mentally abused by my parents. Mainly my dad.
> 
> 
> 
> This was another one. By this statement you are basically calling everyone on here a Satanist due to their lack of belief in Christ, because apparently we are all after "instant gratification". I can tell you now that this statement just shows you as a truly _truly_ immature person with very little understanding of the world. I look for no 'instant' gratification, in this life i look for some form off happiness, but you call that "instant gratification?".
> 
> Apparently im possessed by the devil though, because when i woke up night after night to screaming in the house, and to the same guilt trips for 5 years and then had enough of it and wanted it to end, i was after _instant gratification_. I stopped 'believing' in God when i was 7. It seemed stupid. My point in all of this? Dont post stuff like that and then take offense to the replies. I was wrong to get so aggravated, BUT, the amount of emotional issues im still dealing with (or trying to) is massive, and i got really angry when i saw that, _especially_ after what everyone had already said to you about you preaching your values again and again...
> 
> Think of it as an apology of sorts, but not.


 

I only ignored what you posted because I didn't want you to become more upset, and see, you did finally calm down somewhat. That's a good thing.

Next, I do not want you to become a religious nut. I understand what you went through. Just because your dad went off on some kind of tangent, does not mean that all religion is like that. There are many nutcases, and there are many more still who have become genuinely better people because of Christ. 

As for instant gratification, I never pointed the finger at anyone in particular. I was generalizing. In general, our society is one of instant gratification. Everything is fast faster and well....you get the idea. The funny thing is in the end....we are all sitting there in traffic at a dead standstill. It's hilarious, but not.

I have as much understanding of the world as anyone else does. I haven't had a sheltered life. I went through all kinds of stuff growing up just as a lot of people do....maybe not as bad, but life nonetheless. I can speak from experience.

Also, I want you to reflect on what you wrote earlier. You said, "I was wrong to get so aggravated, BUT, *the amount of emotional issues im still dealing with (or trying to) is massive*, and *i got really angry* when i saw that."

You didn't get angry at me, but rather what I wrote brought out an anger that you already had inside you because of what your dad created with his ideas. It was just looking for a way to vent is all. That sounds like it was a good thing. It probably relieved some pressure inside. Maybe it will be easier to deal with.

In conclusion, I don't want you to be angry at me, but if it helps you, then that's ok. I never pointed a finger at you. All I am saying is that the version of Christianity you were brought up with doesn't seem in line with the bible. The bible teaches us about love, forgiveness and all the things I already brought up, and it also teaches us to be SLOW to anger and not to cause the children to stumble. Regardless of which path you choose, it sounds like you have some trying times ahead of you. I wish you the best.

Take care.


----------



## Naren

All of my main points were on the end of page 25 and no one has tried to respond to those. I think the reason why is that people believe what they believe without really thinking about it. It gives them comfort.

I do not have a problem with the principles of Christianity, most specifically the New Testament. Jesus' teachings in the Bible promote a lot of very good and positive ideals. But, so do a lot of other religions, such as Buddhism. 

I'm not going to restate what I said on page 25, but I find it "convenient" that the post has been ignored.



FlyingBanana said:


> As for instant gratification, I never pointed the finger at anyone in particular. I was generalizing. In general, our society is one of instant gratification. Everything is fast faster and well....you get the idea. The funny thing is in the end....we are all sitting there in traffic at a dead standstill. It's hilarious, but not.



And how is that not instant gratification on Christianity's side, then? To me, the mindset of Christianity is mental laziness. Everything is attributed to God or Satan, simplified into "if it was a good thing, we thank God for it. If it was a bad thing, it's not God's fault, but it may very well be the work of Satan." It's like the old way of creating gods for the harvest, for the sun, for the seasons, for different emotions, and so on. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it is attributed to God or Satan. I've seen so many people not even try to think about why and just say "It's God's will!" or they go down the whole "devil" path.

And, you have a bunch of problems. Instant gratification? Hand them all over the God (which basically just means "forget about them"). This isn't necessarily a bad thing since it is bad to dwell on negative things, but I don't see this as any different from instant gratification. What is NOT instant about Christianity?



FlyingBanana said:


> In conclusion, I don't want you to be angry at me, but if it helps you, then that's ok. I never pointed a finger at you. All I am saying is that the version of Christianity you were brought up with doesn't seem in line with the bible. The bible teaches us about love, forgiveness and all the things I already brought up, and it also teaches us to be SLOW to anger and not to cause the children to stumble. Regardless of which path you choose, it sounds like you have some trying times ahead of you. I wish you the best.



Those are all good things, but you don't have to be a Christian to believe in them. In fact, some of the best "Christians" I've ever met were Buddhists.


----------



## hairychris

FlyingBanana said:


> In conclusion, I don't want you to be angry at me, but if it helps you, then that's ok. I never pointed a finger at you. All I am saying is that the version of Christianity you were brought up with doesn't seem in line with the bible. The bible teaches us about love, forgiveness and all the things I already brought up, and it also teaches us to be SLOW to anger and not to cause the children to stumble. Regardless of which path you choose, it sounds like you have some trying times ahead of you. I wish you the best.
> 
> Take care.



Just one thing here. I'm currently wading through the bible myself... I'm up to Proverbs in the OT.

There's not much peace & love & forgiveness in any form that I recognise so far.

The message that _you_ read in to the bible (NT, probably) may be love & forgiveness but you are picking & choosing the material.

What do you see as literal truth, what do you see as allegory? How do you know that _your_ interpretation of whatever version you're reading is correct? How do you know that the version of the bible that you're reading is the correct one itself?? Even if you disregard the more ugly parts of the OT, do you accept that the god of the OT is the same god as the god of the NT?

OK, I have fundamental issues with the supernatural to start with, so I don't see that any book could possibly be divinely inspired in the first place, but that's beside my point here.

What I'm getting at is that if we accept that the god of the OT is the god of the NT he's a particularly unpleasant character who rules with a 'love me or else' attitude. FWIW I haven't seen any sign of hell yet... The god of the OT just kills people in this life, the eternal damnation comes later.

As a final note, if you use a version of Pascal's Wager - believe because you may regret not doing so after you die - you're using a theory that's been discredited by most sensible theologists. 1) Pascal was a Catholic, he was talking about Catholicism or nothing. 2) No thought was given to other paths or religions... and other worse hells. 3) The assumption is that the chance of the specific version of god in the bet exists is around 50/50 - probability is not taken into consideration. 4) Even if you do believe in response to the wager, you're assuming that the god of the bet will accept your conversion in the spirit in which you converted.... Not saying that you ever will, but if it's brought up in any philosophical conversation it will usually get laughed out of town.

Each to their own, y'know, but consistancy of belief is something that I value, and have never been able to square with Christianity.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Naren said:


> That's called "living in fear" and results in a "I believe in God and Jesus because I'm afraid that I will go to hell if I die and don't believe in God" mentality. And I grew up in a VERY strongly Christian home, went to church every week, went to a Christian junior high and high school, and know the Bible inside and out, but I have zero reason to believe in God.
> 
> I don't believe in something simply because I want to. I believe in something because I have a reason to believe in it. If "God" came and spoke to me, then I would believe in him, but he's never done that (Why? I think he hasn't done so because there IS no "he").
> 
> You're suggesting living a lifestyle worshipping God and Jesus, even though you don't believe he exists (I don't). I cannot believe that there could be a God so cruel and sick that he could create people simply to send them to an eternity of suffering and pain in Hell without once telling them that their ridiculously short existance on Earth was a game or telling them the rules to this game ("You have to believe in me and my son to win, but I'm not going to reveal myself to you. I'm only going to show myself to the Jews and then later the Europeans -- and make most of the people high up in the religion corrupt"). So, you end up dying having never heard of God and, even though you lived a better life than most Christians, you are doomed to an eternity in Hell for not knowing the rules to the game or the goal.
> 
> I believed in God when I was a kid because it's what my parents told me, but when I started thinking "How could God send 99.9% of that country's population to Hell?" when I was in junior high (as an example: less than 0.1% of Japan's population is Christian/Catholic) and I had two choices to believe: God is either evil or God doesn't exist. And I can't believe in an evil God. As I studied astronomy, logic, and other such fields, I found zero reasons to point to God or an afterlife.
> 
> I find it condescending how you act like anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus is being manipulated by "the devil" and the idea that you should just believe in God and follow Jesus in case there IS a Heaven and Hell. Hey. Either you believe it or you don't. It's not something I CHOOSE to believe in. I believe what seems logical and real to me.


 

Hi Naren. Since you seem so distraught because nobody commented on your post on page 25......

Just kidding.

Anyway, I guess there is a fear of what would happen if one didn't believe in God. You're assumption that this fear is the sole driving force behind a belief in God sounds kind of presumtuous to me. 

It may very well be the emotion behind those on their deathbed or similiar situations where they suddenly find God, but that is not a bad thing per say. One can find God at that last moment and if they accept Christ before they leave this world, they still have a chance. God is a merciful One.

I don't think God is cruel for the reasons you stated. However, what would you think if He decided everyone was automatically saved whatever their belief was. That makes no sense. He has given man free will to choose freely in life that which suits them. Also, why would God force Himself on man...that wouldn't work either. Again...free will. We have a right to choose our path in life, and the path we choose in life determines the outcome after resurrection. The bottome line is that God doesn't want a bunch of people to blindly follow. He wants people who will choose freely. 

This is the same thing as Democracy. Would you rather follow a Communist leader that forces himself and his will upon the masses...whether his intentions are good or bad and tells you what you can do for work or that you must give all your profits to him, or would you rather support a govt that is of the people, by the people and for the people where you can still live reasonably freely and choose your path in life? (not saying that the US is completely like that anymore....but that's another story for another day...)

As for dying and never having heard of God...in today's world, if it actually does happen anymore, I am sure God will take that into account. However, the bible talks about the witnesses who will be on the earth in the final days, and how, after there travels and preaching, no corner of the world will have "not" heard the message of the gospel. No one will be able to use that as an excuse.

As for you quoting me as saying or implying, "you act like anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus is being manipulated by "the devil" and the idea that you should just believe in God and follow Jesus in case there IS a Heaven and Hell."

I disagree. I don't think that just because someone doesn't believe in God and accept Jesus Christ is being controlled my Satan. However, that said, there are many people on this earth who are just plain sick. Those are probably in Satan's grip, but people such as the gentiles who were preached to by Peter in the new testament, didn't necessarily believe in God at the time, but they...according to the scripture, were living a decent lifestyle and were told to just continue, as they could have been doing far worse. But see...they got this message of the new Messiah and that was the point.

To respond to that last line.

"Either you believe it or you don't. It's not something I CHOOSE to believe in. I believe what seems logical and real to me."

True. Either you believe or you don't. 

Again, it's all about choices. God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son. If you don't you'll have to deal with the results of that sooner or later, whatever those might be. I'm not condemning you here...we all have the ability to make choices in life.

To me, God is real, Christ is real and the Holy Spirit is real. I accept all three faces of God. The Holy Spirit works in my life constantly and without the Holy Spirit, I am empty. I remember a time not long ago when this was the story. Ironically, I belonged to a particular church for 25 years. After I got married....in my church at the time, it went all downhill. The preacher at the time had died and the helm was passed on to the assisstant preacher. He was mean, controlling and preached a message different than what the bible teaches us. Needless to say, we left and have never been happier. 

Currently, my family and I are still looking for a "church" to belong to, however, my faith has never been stronger and I have never been more fulfilled.

Take care.


----------



## JBroll

You're missing his point.

Pascal's Wager, which you brought in (whether you believe it or not) is entirely fear-based. He is responding to the assertion that one should believe in a deity out of fear of the afterlife - whether or not you believe it - because you brought in that terrible argument.

Jeff


----------



## JBroll

Bloody double... 

Jeff


----------



## Brendan G

JBroll said:


> You're missing his point.
> 
> Pascal's Wager, which you brought in (whether you believe it or not) is entirely fear-based. He is responding to the assertion that one should believe in a deity out of fear of the afterlife - whether or not you believe it - because you brought in that terrible argument.
> 
> Jeff


It's also selfish (If you think heaven does indeed exist and it's the paradise that many say) as the bet is effectively says "Well, I'm going to believe in ya God, only to reap the benefits of living eternally in a supernatural paradise.*"

* I am not directing this statement towards anyone, except maybe Pascal.


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## FlyingBanana

edited. I need more time to answer you Jeff.


----------



## Munky7Head

shadowgenesis said:


> i feel the same. and I often find myself sitting around and the thought comes to me that there is nothing when you die.. and then i kinda scream inside and freak out and it keeps me awake at night.



Same thing used to happen to me when I was younger. I would wake up in the middle of the night and think about it. I would then feel like I was going to vomit and start crying randomly. Death is a very scary thing, but we all have to face it.


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## JJ Rodriguez

He wasn't using it to disprove god, he was using it to counter your argument that Christianity isn't a religion of fear, in the same post you used Pascal's Wager.


----------



## FlyingBanana

JJ Rodriguez said:


> He wasn't using it to disprove god, he was using it to counter your argument that Christianity isn't a religion of fear, in the same post you used Pascal's Wager.


 
I realized that after I already had posted my comment. Coffee hadn't kicked in yet. I'll repost my "on point" answer a little later. 

Thanks for correcting me though JJ.


----------



## hairychris

Brendan G said:


> It's also selfish (If you think heaven does indeed exist and it's the paradise that many say) as the bet is effectively says "Well, I'm going to believe in ya God, only to reap the benefits of living eternally in a supernatural paradise.*"
> 
> * I am not directing this statement towards anyone, except maybe Pascal.



Absolutely.

Great mathematician, dubious philosopher.

Some interesting points...



FlyingBanana said:


> Anyway, I guess there is a fear of what would happen if one didn't believe in God. You're assumption that this fear is the sole driving force behind a belief in God sounds kind of presumtuous to me.



How about applying this to family? Would you be afraid of them going to 'hell' or whatever if they don't believe? Eternal punishment is a big stick, and there are a lot of preachers (and churchmen historically) who gleefully play on it. 



FlyingBanana said:


> It may very well be the emotion behind those on their deathbed or similiar situations where they suddenly find God, but that is not a bad thing per say. One can find God at that last moment and if they accept Christ before they leave this world, they still have a chance. God is a merciful One.


 
People are afraid of death. If, at the last minute they turn to belief as a way of denying what is going to happen then fine. Is it actually true? As an atheist I say no... How will I face my own death? I don't know. Point being is that belief, however strong, does not directly influence reality without physical action.



FlyingBanana said:


> I don't think God is cruel for the reasons you stated. However, what would you think if He decided everyone was automatically saved whatever their belief was. That makes no sense. He has given man free will to choose freely in life that which suits them. Also, why would God force Himself on man...that wouldn't work either. Again...free will. We have a right to choose our path in life, and the path we choose in life determines the outcome after resurrection. The bottome line is that God doesn't want a bunch of people to blindly follow. He wants people who will choose freely.
> 
> This is the same thing as Democracy. Would you rather follow a Communist leader that forces himself and his will upon the masses...whether his intentions are good or bad and tells you what you can do for work or that you must give all your profits to him, or would you rather support a govt that is of the people, by the people and for the people where you can still live reasonably freely and choose your path in life? (not saying that the US is completely like that anymore....but that's another story for another day...)


 
Haha, well, this brings a moral problem and points to an immoral god. You're saying he created us with free will, in the full knowledge that one of our choices is to not 'love' him. He then uses this criteria to punish those who chose wrong to eternal punishment that he created for them.

You know what, if a parent did this to their children they'd get child services all over their arses.

If god is so powerful he knows that, before they were born, a goodly chunk of his beloved children are going to burn. If he doesn't, he ain't omniscient, and isn't that part of the deal?

Sorry, he's not a nice man.



FlyingBanana said:


> As for dying and never having heard of God...in today's world, if it actually does happen anymore, I am sure God will take that into account. However, the bible talks about the witnesses who will be on the earth in the final days, and how, after there travels and preaching, no corner of the world will have "not" heard the message of the gospel. No one will be able to use that as an excuse.



A 1 week old child is an atheist because they don't have the mental ability to comprehend god as a concept. Preach to them... that'll work.



FlyingBanana said:


> As for you quoting me as saying or implying, "you act like anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus is being manipulated by "the devil" and the idea that you should just believe in God and follow Jesus in case there IS a Heaven and Hell."
> 
> I disagree. I don't think that just because someone doesn't believe in God and accept Jesus Christ is being controlled my Satan. However, that said, there are many people on this earth who are just plain sick. Those are probably in Satan's grip, but people such as the gentiles who were preached to by Peter in the new testament, didn't necessarily believe in God at the time, but they...according to the scripture, were living a decent lifestyle and were told to just continue, as they could have been doing far worse. But see...they got this message of the new Messiah and that was the point.


 
Are all people who don't believe in your specific sect going to hell? Even those ones who had an exemplary life but don't believe?

Just interested. They're just as damned as believers who do evil things. Not particularly fair IMO.



FlyingBanana said:


> "Either you believe it or you don't. It's not something I CHOOSE to believe in. I believe what seems logical and real to me."
> 
> True. Either you believe or you don't.
> 
> Again, it's all about choices. God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son. If you don't you'll have to deal with the results of that sooner or later, whatever those might be. I'm not condemning you here...we all have the ability to make choices in life.



Aaah, let's quote a bit of Martin Luther here... "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

He had the right idea, if you're in to that sort of thing. Apologists on both sides say that reason and theistic religion are compatible. Personally I think that isn't the case. Reason wishes to make our universe understandable, theism wishes to keep gaps for god. 



FlyingBanana said:


> To me, God is real, Christ is real and the Holy Spirit is real. I accept all three faces of God. The Holy Spirit works in my life constantly and without the Holy Spirit, I am empty. I remember a time not long ago when this was the story. Ironically, I belonged to a particular church for 25 years. After I got married....in my church at the time, it went all downhill. The preacher at the time had died and the helm was passed on to the assisstant preacher. He was mean, controlling and preached a message different than what the bible teaches us. Needless to say, we left and have never been happier.
> 
> Currently, my family and I are still looking for a "church" to belong to, however, my faith has never been stronger and I have never been more fulfilled.
> 
> Take care.



Fair enough, whatever works! 

However, I do have to ask exactly what message the bible teaches? Are you taking it in it entirity as literal truth, or are you taking parts as allegorical? If so, how do you know which parts are which... mainly because what we call the fundamentalist view was absolutely prevalent throughout most of Christianity's history.

Christianity has changed to reflect the fact that reason is giving us a view of the universe that the authors of the bible had no concept of. What does this tell you of the power of reason over superstition?


----------



## Naren

FlyingBanana said:


> Anyway, I guess there is a fear of what would happen if one didn't believe in God. You're assumption that this fear is the sole driving force behind a belief in God sounds kind of presumtuous to me.



No, I'm not. You completely missed my point. I did not say that YOU are driven by fear. In fact, both of my parents and many of my relatives are Christians but not because they are afraid of going to Hell, but because they believe in God and Jesus and believe that it's the right thing to do. 

What I was saying was that you were encouraging people that don't believe in God to believe in him and live a "Christian lifestyle" out of fear of what could possibly happen when you die. If I don't believe in God, then doing what you said would just be creating a backdoor. "I don't believe there is any supernatural or divinity in the universe, but just to be on the safe side, I'll worship this god... that I don't think exists." 

That's illogical and just inane.



FlyingBanana said:


> It may very well be the emotion behind those on their deathbed or similiar situations where they suddenly find God, but that is not a bad thing per say. One can find God at that last moment and if they accept Christ before they leave this world, they still have a chance. God is a merciful One.



That's natural. In the face of the prospect of being erased from existance, even the most logical person might bank on their being some superior being out there to save them, even if they know it is not logical. This is not "finding God." This is a last ditch effort to save themselves. And all living things on Earth are driven by self-preservation.



FlyingBanana said:


> I don't think God is cruel for the reasons you stated. However, what would you think if He decided everyone was automatically saved whatever their belief was. That makes no sense. He has given man free will to choose freely in life that which suits them. Also, why would God force Himself on man...that wouldn't work either. Again...free will. We have a right to choose our path in life, and the path we choose in life determines the outcome after resurrection. The bottome line is that God doesn't want a bunch of people to blindly follow. He wants people who will choose freely.



Okay. Then let's look at it this way. I live in Japan. Only 0.1&#37; of the nation's population is Christian (including both Protestants and Catholics). Part of the reason for this has to do with cultural differences where Catholics came to Japan several hundred years ago, telling the Japanese that wine would transform into the actual blood of Christ that they were to drink. Shintoism, the native Japanese religion, teaches that blood is incredibly dirty and it is to never be drunk and to avoid touching it whenever possible. This is just one of many cultural differences that made Christianity terrifying to many Japanese. It escalated to a point where Christians defied the shogun and the beliefs were clashing even further with native beliefs that the shogun, Tokugawa Ieyasu, banned Christianity in 1614 and made all the European missionaries leave. This ban was lifted a few hundred years later, but to more Japanese, the Bible seems more far-fetched than an epic fantasy novel.

So, would you say that those 99.9% of the population who learned about Christianity and Jesus in history classes in school but who are either agnostic, Buddhist, or Shintoist actually had a chance to "be saved"? When did God reveal himself to them? Where? And How? You could say that they have all heard of Jesus because he is quite a central figure in Western history. 

You say that God doesn't want people to blindly follow, but why would he be sending hundreds of millions of people to Hell? Because his missionaries failed? Because He failed? Because they rejected him? Well, they didn't reject him, because they were never given the heaven-and-hell spiel. And, even if they had, how are they to know that this foreign bizarre blood-drinking flesh-eating religion that clashes with everything their culture has valued is correct?



FlyingBanana said:


> This is the same thing as Democracy. Would you rather follow a Communist leader that forces himself and his will upon the masses...whether his intentions are good or bad and tells you what you can do for work or that you must give all your profits to him, or would you rather support a govt that is of the people, by the people and for the people where you can still live reasonably freely and choose your path in life? (not saying that the US is completely like that anymore....but that's another story for another day...)



Democracy? Try Totalitarianism. Sure, you have a choice, but the alternative is an eternity of neverending pain and torture. Oh, but we only tell that to a few people. If the Communist leader forces himself and his will on his masses and it saves them from an eternity of suffering, then I would say that he did the right thing.

But this isn't that simple. 



FlyingBanana said:


> As for dying and never having heard of God...in today's world, if it actually does happen anymore, I am sure God will take that into account. However, the bible talks about the witnesses who will be on the earth in the final days, and how, after there travels and preaching, no corner of the world will have "not" heard the message of the gospel. No one will be able to use that as an excuse.



After reading this post, I'm pretty sure I'm more familiar with the Bible than you (no offense). What you are saying here does not match up with scripture (Remember: I grew up in the church. I've read the entire Bible cover to cover 3 times and have read certain scriptures as many as a couple hundred times. I may be an atheist, but I know the Bible teaches).




FlyingBanana said:


> I disagree. I don't think that just because someone doesn't believe in God and accept Jesus Christ is being controlled my Satan. However, that said, there are many people on this earth who are just plain sick. Those are probably in Satan's grip, but people such as the gentiles who were preached to by Peter in the new testament, didn't necessarily believe in God at the time, but they...according to the scripture, were living a decent lifestyle and were told to just continue, as they could have been doing far worse. But see...they got this message of the new Messiah and that was the point.



You don't believe that man can be completely twisted and sick on his own without Satan's help? I am both a great believer in what man can accomplish and also oftentimes appalled at the capacity for evil, but shifting the blame to demons or devils just shows that you don't want to believe that mankind is capable of being that evil on his own. I guarantee he can.



FlyingBanana said:


> Again, it's all about choices. God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son. If you don't you'll have to deal with the results of that sooner or later, whatever those might be. I'm not condemning you here...we all have the ability to make choices in life.



When did he give me that choice? When? Yes, I grew up in a Christian family with a Protestant family on my father's side, a Catholic family on my mother's side, and both protestants and catholics on my step-father's side, went to church every week, went to a Christian junior high and high school, and read and studied the Bible many many times.

To me, all of that is just fiction. Unrealistic fiction. I base my life on reality and I have seen nothing that points to anything in Christianity having any base in reality. I have seen a lot to the contrary, however. 

And what is up with that choice? Why do I have to deal with the consequence (eternity in Hell) for not accepting a God I don't believe exists or His son (which also doesn't exist)? Where is this supposed choice I was given? We all have the ability to make choices in life. But let's say you go to Hell for not choosing to believe in a Giant Green Giraffe?


----------



## FlyingBanana

I'm beat. I'll post again tomorrow. Night.


----------



## JBroll

Just keep in mind that you're going up against people who disagree with you not because they're unfamiliar with the story but because they know it too well.

Jeff


----------



## twiztedchild

Munky7Head said:


> Death is a very scary thing, but we all have to face it.



I would face it. Look it right in its ugly eye. like this -->


----------



## Daemoniac

twiztedchild said:


> I would face it. Look it right in its ugly eye, and rip its nipples off...


----------



## Naren

twiztedchild said:


> I would face it. Look it right in its ugly eye. like this -->



Could you take your nonsense posts to Off Topic and not The Lounge, which is supposed to be about serious discussion?  Thaaaaank you.


----------



## Thrashmanzac

JBroll said:


> Just keep in mind that you're going up against people who disagree with you not because they're unfamiliar with the story but because they know it too well.
> 
> Jeff


----------



## twiztedchild

Naren said:


> Could you take your nonsense posts to Off Topic and not The Lounge, which is supposed to be about serious discussion?  Thaaaaank you.






I was done with this thread anyways  It to be honest is just dumb. And your welcome 

By the way, what about all the other "Off topic" Nonsence post in the Lounge?


----------



## Naren

twiztedchild said:


> I was done with this thread anyways  It to be honest is just dumb. And your welcome
> 
> By the way, what about all the other "Off topic" Nonsence post in the Lounge?



If you're done with this thread and think it's dumb, then why are you posting in it? 

I don't know what other nonsense posts you're referring to (pretty much all the threads in The Lounge are serious. There may be a few that aren't super serious, but they're not just straight up nonsense or joking. That's what Off-Topic is for), but I'd rather not clog this thread up further with more nonsense posts.


----------



## twiztedchild

Naren said:


> If you're done with this thread and think it's dumb, then why are you posting in it?
> 
> I don't know what other nonsense posts you're referring to (pretty much all the threads in The Lounge are serious. There may be a few that aren't super serious, but they're not just straight up nonsense or joking. That's what Off-Topic is for), but I'd rather not clog this thread up further with more nonsense posts.



^ thats too late. the whole thread is nonsence. But what ever


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## ZeroSignal

James, please don't get this thread closed. I'm actually interested to see what happens next.

kthxby


----------



## hairychris

Naren said:


> Okay. Then let's look at it this way. I live in Japan. Only 0.1&#37; of the nation's population is Christian (including both Protestants and Catholics). Part of the reason for this has to do with cultural differences where Catholics came to Japan several hundred years ago, telling the Japanese that wine would transform into the actual blood of Christ that they were to drink. Shintoism, the native Japanese religion, teaches that blood is incredibly dirty and it is to never be drunk and to avoid touching it whenever possible. This is just one of many cultural differences that made Christianity terrifying to many Japanese. It escalated to a point where Christians defied the shogun and the beliefs were clashing even further with native beliefs that the shogun, Tokugawa Ieyasu, banned Christianity in 1614 and made all the European missionaries leave. This ban was lifted a few hundred years later, but to more Japanese, the Bible seems more far-fetched than an epic fantasy novel.



Interesting perspective. 

On my part, I've read quite a lot of contempary Roman and Greek literature, the dating of which falls quite nicely within the biblical time period.

It's interesting to see the mix of accurate portrayal of reality along with the inclusion of prodigies, oracles and various portents. What's also educational is that it was certainly Roman practise for the author to place elaborate rhetorical argument in the mouth of the major historical players, to explain their actions from the viewpoint of the author.

We know that the New Testament was written with an eye to the Roman population. Paul was a Roman citizen who, if he did write any gospels, would be at least partially familiar with Roman literary tradition.

You also have to remember that early Christianlity was inherently political. The act of pacific monotheism was the polar opposite of Roman thought, and worship of the deified emperors and representations of Rome were political as well as religious. Jews were seen as a subject people so had certain dispensations (although these varied), but the monotheistic cult of Christianity was specifically targetting Roman citizens with their 'perverse' views. In the eyes of the Roman establishment this fell somewhere between dangerous heresy and outright treason.

Judaism was, and still is, strongly tribal and exclusive. Converts were never sought in Roman times so they were seen as a people with peculiar views, not a cult with expansionary aims.

The historical and political context seems to have been lost somewhere...


----------



## Daemoniac

^ Not forgetting that a major difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism is mroe than just a religion. There is an entire jewish people that are from Israel, so its as much a society as it is purely a religion.

For me it adds an interesting twist to the whole concept as well.


----------



## Naren

Demoniac said:


> ^ Not forgetting that a major difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism is mroe than just a religion. There is an entire jewish people that are from Israel, so its as much a society as it is purely a religion.
> 
> For me it adds an interesting twist to the whole concept as well.



Actually Judaism is only a religion. The term "Jew" refers to someone who believes in Judaism. An "Israelite" is a citizen of Israel. A "Hebrew" is someone of the semitic bloodline of the people who lived in Israel a long time ago (but who may live somewhere else).

I have met Hebrews who are not Jews. Because of the culture, however, the huge majority of them are Jewish.

But Judaism is not a society. There is a culture to the religion, but "Hebrew" does not necessarily equal "Jew."

Some people just use the term "Jew" to mean an Isralite or someone of Hebrew ancestry, which isn't strictly true.


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## Kakaka

> Originally Posted by JBroll:
> Just keep in mind that you're going up against people who disagree with you not because they're unfamiliar with the story but because they know it too well.
> Jeff



What Naren denied is actually an understanding of many Bible studiers and believers, me included.

That is that God won't condemn those who never had the gospel preached to them in the form one generally imagines (a person talking) because of that. The Bible says that God can be seen in the wonders of creation, and that alone is an announcement of the gospel.

I really don't want to argue as if trying to prove faith by logic and philosophical wisdom, I don't think it's much useful.

So, I'd like to say, as a christian, believer in the Bible (I like the 1995 JKV, for instance), that for what I know of the God of the Bible, who happens to be my Father by faith, He has no commitment to proving His existence in any extraordinary way, meaning other than the ones the Bible mentions.

And to confirm that, I quote two verses from it:

Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

I, and many others, take from that and other supporting parts of the Scripture, that no man can reach God or understand Him by himself, by his reason, intelligence or effort, but actually the very opposite is true: only through faith in God, the God presented by the Bible as the word of God.

And:

Genesis 1:1 (New International Version)

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

It's the first verse, the first impression perhaps, and doesn't start proving God's existence, neither does later, it simply assumes He does exist, that His word is true and all the rest is based upon this.

So, I really don't want to mess brother FlyingBanana's discussion and profession of faith here, but really just state that most of the accusations against the Christian faith as being irrational are true, if rationality means human reason and perception of reality, in which most here rely along with their senses as the path to obtain or evaluate what the truth must be.


----------



## hairychris

Kakaka said:


> So, I really don't want to mess brother FlyingBanana's discussion and profession of faith here, but really just state that most of the accusations against the Christian faith as being irrational are true, if rationality means human reason and perception of reality, in which most here rely along with their senses as the path to obtain or evaluate what the truth must be.



+1, and I come from the dark side.

I do, however, fundamentally disagree with your conclusions*, but not with the fact that you accept that rationality and faith are not compatible. I assume that's what you mean - if something is proven by rational methods to be true, you do not need belief in a religious context.

I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth! 

If you're Brazilian I imagine that you're Catholic. FWIW the Roman church has a far more consistant approach then the many flavours of the reformed faith - mainly due to it's centralisation, tools like papal bulls, etc. There is also an intellectual strand to catholicism that is missing in a lot of the more fundamental protestant sects.

Again, I disagree with the philosophies but at least they're more concrete!



* I believe that the chain of causality ends at a completely natural source. Even if we can never discover what's outside this causality, making a claim for an intelligent being is somewhat rash, and a personal god is even more so...  Anyway, our own perception of reality is the only one we can rely on. If something is outside our perception it, to all intents & purposes, does not exist in our reality UNLESS it manifests _physically_ in some other way... (eg we cannot percieve ultraviolet light with our natural sightbut we know that it exists because it affects other objects in our physical world in a consistant fashion)


----------



## Makelele

I beleive that when I die I will go to Valhalla where I will drink mead and feast on S&#230;hr&#237;mnir every night. Or maybe not. 

I just beleive that if there is an omnipotent God, then he can't be so petty that he'd condemn someone who's lived a good life, done mostly good things and little bad to an eternity of torment in hell. If that was the case I'd say he'd be quite an asshole, and I certainly wouldn't want to have anything to do with him.

I know I'm joining this thread a bit late, so someone has probably brought up similar views.

Edit: Just noticed that my signature kind of fits in with the thread.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist. 

Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?

I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible. 

One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man? 

Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

FlyingBanana said:


> Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.
> 
> Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?
> 
> I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?
> 
> Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.
> 
> One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man?
> 
> Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?




What you're talking about now is intelligent design. I wouldn't call myself an atheist exactly, I'm more of a REALLY skeptical agnostic. If you showed me proof there was a god, I'd believe it, but obviously that's not possible. But given the contradictions in the bible, and just the general silly (to me, I'm not trying to offend) nature of the laws and rules you're supposed to obey, I doubt that Christianity would be the right faith out of all of them. In fact, the arrogance, tyrannical nature and general cruelty showed by the Christian god would probably make me worship the devil 

And to what lengths does your god try to make himself known? If he really wanted to be known, he could easily just say "hey, what's up dudes?" and be done with it. So now you have 2 conflicting statements, the we're supposed to go on free will statement, or the fact he is trying to let us know. I don't think those are 2 compatible statements really.

I still stand by my statement earlier, that if he is really Omniscient, which would automatically rule out free will since he would either know the future, or be able to predict pretty accurately through his vast knowledge of psychology and brain chemistry, then he would know whether or not we would end up following him the moment we were conceived. So basically he created me for the sole purpose of damning me? I refer back to my first paragraph 

As for why people try to disprove him, or why we're even posting in this thread, it's just a discussion. We're shooting the shit. Do you personally have anything better to do?


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana said:


> Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.
> 
> Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?



This is not at all analogous to the way we claim that life came into existence.



FlyingBanana said:


> I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?



Actually, the second sentence is completely false. Abiogenesis is the most plausible of options and evolution (NOT random chance alone, random chance guided by the survival of the most powerful genes) is the best option from there.



FlyingBanana said:


> Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.



Again, you're wrong. It's no coincidence that even in America, the fundagelical haven of the West, over 90% of the National Academy of Sciences lack a religious belief. You have quite a bit of reading to do. Science simply does not agree with you, and it's no coincidence that the people who use evolution as their working model are also the people who make serious progress in medicine and genetic research...



FlyingBanana said:


> One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man?



If he is omnipotent, why does he leave so much doubt, with the best 'evidence' being an inconsistent and nonsensical text written by cavemen about fantasies?



FlyingBanana said:


> Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?



If religious people left atheists alone - and didn't discriminate against them, demonize them, and try to make them subhuman - there would be less of an opposition. The reason religion is attacked is the same reason behind attacking other beliefs that are wrong and often harmful.

Your first arguments are literally arguments from your own lack of knowledge. You clearly have a lot of reading to do - and a lot of thinking to catch up on. 

Suppose your god is the creator of life. He either did or did not need creation himself; the former option only leads us to an infinite regression of increasingly powerful and complex deities, and the latter option shifts the "how the fuck did that happen?" from simple life to an even more complex and seemingly unnecessary being.

Jeff


----------



## FlyingBanana

Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over) 

I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.

Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.

God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)
> 
> I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.



Actually, I've left this discussion to the people who can voice my views more accurately than I can but I have to jump in on this. Jeff is merely responding to your statement. He is not berating you. He is telling you that you are wrong and (mostly) showing you how you are incorrect. He's just replying to what you have said. I really don't feel that there are agendas here that I can see.

It's a whole different story if you can't keep up with a debate (I know I sure as hell have problems with that so I've stepped well out of this one ) but to take part in a debate and then drop out calling fouls left-right-and-centre is a bit... poor form.

And by the way, I'm in the precise same camp as JJ on this. I'm not Atheist, just a _really_ sceptical Agnostic.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)
> 
> I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.
> 
> Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.
> 
> God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."



But you are trying to prove something, you're trying to prove that God exists and believing in him is the right course of action. You're arguing with everyone who disagrees with you by saying things like this:



FlyingBanana said:


> Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.



You're telling us that we're wrong. If you'd just stick to what you believe and (God forbid) why, maybe people wouldn't get so defensive. And Jeff isn't berating you, from my viewpoint he's just countering your "evidence" with his.


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana said:


> Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)
> 
> I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.
> 
> Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.
> 
> God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."



I'm not allowing constructive discussion? I'm taking your arguments apart and quite plainly saying that you don't know what you're talking about when you use illogical arguments and statements not grounded in reality. You're walking in believing that we already trust the same things you do and assuming that we're just hiding from something because we don't want it to be true.

As for "trying to disprove" your beliefs... first, I don't need to disprove anything, strictly speaking, because you're the one making a fairly hefty claim without backing. Second, there's a whole lot of stuff that could be believed in, and it takes a lot to convince some of us that something is true - and I believe that if something is worth believing in, it's worth tearing apart endlessly to make sure it's really justified. Third, your inability to see other points of view is increasingly more obvious, as you've gone from 'fundagelical oblivious to how actual atheists work' to 'fundagelical oblivious to how arguments work and ducking for cover behind offense' and you really haven't said anything that atheists generally haven't heard a thousand times before - keep in mind that we're working solely with reason and logic, minimizing the assumptions made about the world around us, and letting everything stand strictly on its own merit - no matter how happy a belief might make us.

Further, you keep just blindly asserting the same thing over and over again - you need quite a bit more proof than just quoting things out of the Bible, because nobody believes that anyway - and even without that it's pretty useless, as I've actually read the thing.

Jeff


----------



## JBroll

Psyclapse said:


> And Jeff isn't berating you, from my viewpoint he's just countering your "evidence" with his.



This is precisely true - you'd know if I was actually berating you, this is just being blunt, direct, and straightforward.

Jeff


----------



## Symphonia87

You go through several reincarnations then either go to a heaven, which is like earth, but is earth you'd like to be or hell which is an earth that is your worst nightmare. My hell would include having to eat cheese constantly and having nothing but fall out boy on the radio.


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## Pauly

I'd post in this thread buy hairychris is doing a good job of saying exactly what I would.


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## Psyclapse

Symphonia87 said:


> You go through several reincarnations then either go to a heaven, which is like earth, but is earth you'd like to be or hell which is an earth that is your worst nightmare. My hell would include having to eat cheese constantly and having nothing but fall out boy on the radio.



Fall Out Boy would absolutely be hell but what's wrong with cheese?


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## Kakaka

hairychris said:


> I do, however, fundamentally disagree with your conclusions*, but not with the fact that you accept that rationality and faith are not compatible. I assume that's what you mean - if something is proven by rational methods to be true, you do not need belief in a religious context.
> 
> I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth!
> 
> If you're Brazilian I imagine that you're Catholic. FWIW the Roman church has a far more consistant approach then the many flavours of the reformed faith - mainly due to it's centralisation, tools like papal bulls, etc. There is also an intellectual strand to catholicism that is missing in a lot of the more fundamental protestant sects.
> 
> Again, I disagree with the philosophies but at least they're more concrete!
> 
> 
> 
> * I believe that the chain of causality ends at a completely natural source. Even if we can never discover what's outside this causality, making a claim for an intelligent being is somewhat rash, and a personal god is even more so...  Anyway, our own perception of reality is the only one we can rely on. If something is outside our perception it, to all intents & purposes, does not exist in our reality UNLESS it manifests _physically_ in some other way... (eg we cannot percieve ultraviolet light with our natural sightbut we know that it exists because it affects other objects in our physical world in a consistant fashion)



No, I actually don't feel like you may have put words on my mouth, keeping in mind what the acceptation of rationality was being used.

I'm not catholic, can't say I'm protestant either and not really enrolled to any religious organization.
I'm christian, and try to remain that alone. Just because I take from the Bible that the price Christ paid on the cross to redeem me is too high for me to add any other name to His.
Not meaning that I censor anyone who is protestant or catholic, it's just my particular walk with God.

But I tend to have more contact and share more of the protestant faith, that because the catholic church departs too much from what I see the church of Christ in the Bible should be.

But I haven't read much catholic writings to be able compare them with any other as you did, I guess you must have read some, I can't evaluate them from a scientific/scholar viewpoint.
Contrary to that, I actually don't look for catholic literature because since I don't see the catholic system in accordance to what I read on the Bible, I'd rather read other texts, part of which are of protestant origin.

And I completely agree that we think differently on that, about that last part of your post:



> If something is outside our perception it, to all intents & purposes, does not exist in our reality UNLESS it manifests _physically_ in some other way... (eg we cannot percieve ultraviolet light with our natural sightbut we know that it exists because it affects other objects in our physical world in a consistant fashion)



I think that perhaps the key difference in our diverging opinions is in that last "consistent fashion", if I get it right. For me though one can't perceive something one can still be affected by it. One's limited perception grants one a limited reality, and I believe there is an absolute, all-embracing, universal(not in a democratic, popular way) reality, which I call truth.

And I appreciate the politeness, thanks very much.


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## twiztedchild

Does ANYONE noticed that you are not even talking about the same damn topic as when this thread was opened now??

mean COME ON.No one will agree with anyone else. just shut up and close this thread. OR start another thread that is about religion.


And people thought I was derailing this thread


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## Kakaka

^ Is right.


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## twiztedchild

Kakaka said:


> ^ Is right.



Thank you.


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## ZeroSignal

I like this thread. I say leave it.


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## JJ Rodriguez

Well, a thread about what you think happens when you die is obviously about religion anyways, so I don't think any of this stuff is off topic.


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## Zepp88

I fail to see why the topic is worth discussing. You're never going to know, not until you die. If you really want to know, there are quick ways to find out.


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## twiztedchild

Zepp88 said:


> I fail to see why the topic is worth discussing. You're never going to know, not until you die. If you really want to know, there are quick ways to find out.



This man speakth the truth


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## bulletbass man

these lounge topics always tend to go south after a while

My only view on religion is that the more everyone preaches to one another the less and less it is about your god and the more it is about you. Coming from someone who once had a fairly religious ideology until I was pushed away by those who could not relize preaching thier exact view only pushes people further from believing in a universal god who actually is watching over mankind.

Honestly I don't get religion anymore. Partly because I relized that I didn't have the same beliefs as the people who deemed themselves christians. Also a vast number of personal views and realizations has also pushed me away. Yet I still run a contemporary youth service at my church as it's the only avenue for the people who had the same issues as me to go to thier god and it would likely collapse rather quickly if I stopped leading it. Honestly whether you are an agnostic, catholic, protestant, jew, or believe that clifford the big red dog is the messiah you need to stop forcing your specific views on others. You can quietly and openly express your views but starting heated arguements only makes you look like an arogant moron. (and yes I do relize I look like an arogant moron by making this post)


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## FlyingBanana

Zepp88 said:


> I fail to see why the topic is worth discussing. You're never going to know, not until you die. If you really want to know, there are quick ways to find out.


 

Yeah..... Stand in the middle of a train tunnel at night and wait untill you see the light...then walk towards it.


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## twiztedchild

FlyingBanana said:


> Yeah..... Stand in the middle of a train tunnel at night and wait untill you see the light...then walk towards it.



  

Im not saying that your an Idiot. just saying that post is crazy 



bulletbass man said:


> Honestly whether you are an agnostic, catholic, protestant, jew, or *believe that clifford the big red dog is the messiah *you need to stop forcing your specific views on others. You can quietly and openly express your views but starting heated arguements only makes you look like an arogant moron. (and yes I do relize I look like an arogant moron by making this post)



 that is awesome!!!


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## Naren

JBroll pretty much stated everything I was planning on saying in regards to FlyingBanana's incredibly scientifically inaccurate post. I just would have said it differently.

I think the current discussion is very much on-topic because if you talk about what happens when you die, religion is definitely going to come into it. And there are a zillion different views of what happens when you die from heaven to hell to purgatory to reincarnation to becoming part of the "oversoul," and so on. And discussing such things is likely to go in the direction it has.

I think that Kakaka has done a pretty good job of responding. He realizes that his beliefs are irrational (by human standards), but he believes what he believes. I can respect that. 



twiztedchild said:


> Im not saying that your an Idiot. just saying that post is crazy



It was a joke.


----------



## hairychris

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Well, a thread about what you think happens when you die is obviously about religion anyways, so I don't think any of this stuff is off topic.



Yeah, pretty much. It's a very loaded question... and not too many people ask 'What happens when a hamster dies?' unless they're a bereaved pet owner!

The joys of duality...


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## twiztedchild

Naren said:


> It was a joke.



Yeah. I got that when I read it. it is still crazy funny.


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## hairychris

I'll be brief...  
*so brief I edited a lot out*



Kakaka said:


> but I tend to have more contact and share more of the protestant faith, that because the catholic church departs too much from what I see the church of Christ in the Bible should be.



Nice chatting with you, squire!  

I will, however, like to look at these lines for a moment. They are, to me, another fundamental failure that I have with this whole belief thing.

A massive number of assumptions are made here pertaining to the validity of the Bible:

There is/are god(s)
There is one god
The one god that exists is the god of the Old Testament
The god of the OT had a guiding hand (however vague) in the writing
Certain fundamentals in the OT are accurate (otherwise the NT isn't valid)
Jesus was born/lived/died
Jesus is who the gospels claimed he was
The NT is accurate in it's fundamentals
The teachings in the NT haven't been superceded by Islam (that's their claim)
... and the list goes on

This is before you add interpretation of the words, and the various translations, versions, editings & so forth that the Bible has gone through in the past 2 millenia.

As far as I can see, to believe the Bible you have to first _believe in_ the Bible.

I am far from convinced of the validity of many of the conditions that need to be correct for the Bible to be anything other then an interesting mythological history and set of teachings. I need to be convinced of the validity of _god_ before the Bible makes sense. I'm not, so it doesn't.

Even taking these into consideration, and then accepting that god may exist, is he worthy of respect? From the OT he seems to me like a genocidal maniac, and any respect that he gets would be in the vein of 'I'll love you so that you don't come round to my house and pull my arms & legs off' (look at human systems where a cult of personality is built around a leader and the same general principles are at work).

Anyway, if I'm damned because of the way that he wired my brain - eg not to believe - then I don't think that this is particularly fair.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ But, see, he didnt wire your brain that way. He made you perfect, then the devil corrupted you. 

EDIT: All this religion is bringing out Demoniacs inner cynicist...


----------



## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> ^ But, see, he didnt wire your brain that way. He made you perfect, then the devil corrupted you.
> 
> EDIT: All this religion is bringing out Demoniacs inner cynicist...



I always thought that it was corruption because of original sin...


----------



## Daemoniac

You were given free will by a "beneficient" omnipotent being, who then cast down the angels who refused to give back their free will (which he gave them), with which they could persuade us humans to be evil, and then gives us the guidelines with which we can live well but then dangles 'instant gratification' and sin in front of us (as good as, he lets the devil get away with it)...


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> ^ But, see, he didnt wire your brain that way. He made you perfect, then the devil corrupted you.
> 
> EDIT: All this religion is bringing out Demoniacs inner cynicist...


 
and yours.......just kidding

But remember though, we all can choose between right and wrong. Some of us are taught that difference when growing up. Pawning off the the responsibility to the devil....even if kidding is only setting the stage for a lifetime of misery. People tend to blame other things like environment, way they are brought up and other various factors instead of looking within.

PS. Here's that missing link between humans and monkeys.....lol. Pretty weird.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e99_1229060847&p=1


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> But remember though, we all can choose between right and wrong. Some of us are taught that difference when growing up. Pawning off the the responsibility to the devil....even if kidding is only setting the stage for a lifetime of misery. People tend to blame other things like environment, way they are brought up and other various factors instead of looking within.



Tabula Rasa - Tabula rasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even though most psychologists just steal other peoples' theories and say the the same over and over again, they struck gold with the nature/nurture debate. Obviously it's a combination between the two that shapes a young persons life but if you catch a kid at a young enough age when the brain is still practically a big bowl of jello, you can get them to believe anything.

But please don't think I'm trying to say that religion is just for brainwashing people, I'm not, I am saying that you can't judge a persons "soul" from the start, there has to be some kind of conditioning that makes people the way they are and NO ONE has religion/God/Satan in their hearts from birth, it has to be learned/taught.


----------



## Aaron

twiztedchild said:


> I beleive that after I die......the world ends.
> 
> That might very well be true, seeing as in a unconscious state there is no concept of time, so i guess in death that one second of terminal brain death to you would be maybe billions of years or more, i just think about when i got put out for my wisdom teeth removal, one second they put in the i.v. and i was talking and in a millisecond woke up and the procedure was over,i think if that procedure lasted a year it would have still lasted that split second for me due to not having a concept of time, the mind is something we can never full understand yet, its technology is infinite, it keeps going.


----------



## twiztedchild

Aaron said:


> That might very well be true, seeing as in a unconscious state there is no concept of time, so i guess in death that one second of terminal brain death to you would be maybe billions of years or more, i just think about when i got put out for my wisdom teeth removal, one second they put in the i.v. and i was talking and in a millisecond woke up and the procedure was over,i think if that procedure lasted a year it would have still lasted that split second for me due to not having a concept of time, the mind is something we can never full understand yet, its technology is infinite, it keeps going.



Ah. someone that sees my points


----------



## noob_pwn

FlyingBanana said:


> Hi Naren. Since you seem so distraught because nobody commented on your post on page 25......
> 
> 
> Again, it's all about choices. God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son. If you don't you'll have to deal with the results of that sooner or later, whatever those might be.




lol. sounds like a bit of a threat to me.
I live a block from the most popular christian church in the southern hemisphere, THE hillsong church.
I can't stand this shit
it cannot be proven by any means,
it is downright brainwashing crap that is forced down recipients throats by means of fear and coercion and the quote above is a prime example of this.
This christian church in particular is so wealthy that they own a nearby ice rink. the take donations via mobile eftpos facilities inside their theatres.

I HATE religion, ever since i renounced it in my earlier youth i have lived a great life, been through dark places and guided myself out, on my own initiative to live a great life. It is un-necessary and it is completely false. Numbers of believers dont mean anything. It is merely guiding sheep. This is not proof, and proof does not materially exist anywhere. I dont give a fuck if those out there don't agree with me here, this just proves the extent of your own stupidity and blindness. I hope this makes you angry, and i hope you think this over before you waste the rest of your life.


----------



## Daemoniac

noob_pwn said:


> lol. sounds like a bit of a threat to me.
> I live a block from the most popular christian church in the southern hemisphere, THE hillsong church.
> I can't stand this shit
> it cannot be proven by any means,
> it is downright brainwashing crap that is forced down recipients throats by means of fear and coercion and the quote above is a prime example of this.
> This christian church in particular is so wealthy that they own a nearby ice rink. the take donations via mobile eftpos facilities inside their theatres.
> 
> I HATE religion, ever since i renounced it in my earlier youth i have lived a great life, been through dark places and guided myself out, on my own initiative to live a great life. It is un-necessary and it is completely false. Numbers of believers dont mean anything. It is merely guiding sheep. This is not proof, and proof does not materially exist anywhere. I dont give a fuck if those out there don't agree with me here, this just proves the extent of your own stupidity and blindness. I hope this makes you angry, and i hope you think this over before you waste the rest of your life.


 

See, now that is ignorance and intolerance on the exact same level as religious zealots etc.. I get where you're coming from dude, but seriously, thats some unnecessairy hatred right there, that comes off in the exact same way...


----------



## ZeroSignal

Demoniac said:


> See, now that is ignorance and intolerance on the exact same level as religious zealots etc.. I get where you're coming from dude, but seriously, thats some unnecessairy hatred right there, that comes off in the exact same way...



I wouldn't exactly agree with you on that one. You have to ask yourself, _what_ is making him feel that way?


----------



## Daemoniac

^ From what i can tell, its a differing opinion on maters spiritual. There probably is more to it, but he hasnt said anything more than that, so im left to assume its purely a different opinion... Im not trying to say hes 'wrong' in his beliefs, just that he may be wrong that its wrong for others to have those beliefs...

That being said, living near _that_ church would be pretty hard...


----------



## FlyingBanana

noob_pwn said:


> lol. sounds like a bit of a threat to me.
> I live a block from the most popular christian church in the southern hemisphere, THE hillsong church.
> I can't stand this shit
> it cannot be proven by any means,
> it is downright brainwashing crap that is forced down recipients throats by means of fear and coercion and the quote above is a prime example of this.
> This christian church in particular is so wealthy that they own a nearby ice rink. the take donations via mobile eftpos facilities inside their theatres.
> 
> I HATE religion, ever since i renounced it in my earlier youth i have lived a great life, been through dark places and guided myself out, on my own initiative to live a great life. It is un-necessary and it is completely false. Numbers of believers dont mean anything. It is merely guiding sheep. This is not proof, and proof does not materially exist anywhere. I dont give a fuck if those out there don't agree with me here, this just proves the extent of your own stupidity and blindness. I hope this makes you angry, and i hope you think this over before you waste the rest of your life.


 
Sad. You feel threatened by a God that loves you, and you are upset by me saying it...and dare I say it, you are torn up inside by your hatred. 

By the way, your life doesn't sound so great. If it were, you wouldn't be posting messages about how much hatred you have inside. You'd be living your great life. You might re-think what it is you actually hate. You might be surprised at the real answer if you took the time to be honest with yourself.

Take care buddy.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Sad. You feel threatened by a God that loves you, and you are upset by me saying it...and dare I say it, you are torn up inside by your hatred.
> 
> By the way, your life doesn't sound so great. If it were, you wouldn't be posting messages about how much hatred you have inside. You'd be living your great life. You might re-think what it is you actually hate. You might be surprised at the real answer if you took the time to be honest with yourself.
> 
> Take care buddy.



Can you prove that this "god" loves you? The bible says that god is an evil, manipulative bastard that hates those who he created. 

How is he torn up by it? It sounds like he's fed up with what he's been experiencing regarding religion.

Sorry dude, but that is incredibly condescending. I respectfully ask you to leave that shit at the door.


----------



## hairychris

I think that FB isn't taking into consideration the fact that god and religion are 2 different things.

I don't think that noob_pwn hates god, he stated that as far as he's concerned god does not exist.

However he does dislike religion as he's been through it. As religion is a man made device, you do not need to believe in said religion's deity to have feelings towards the religion itself.

FlyingBanana - atheists do not HATE god, that'd be stupid. It's like saying that they hate Zeus, or Santa, or invisible unicorns, or whatever. Atheists aren't scared of god either, or want it's love or anything else for exactly the same reason. They have looked at the arguments for god's meaningful existence and said 'sorry, doesn't wash'. 

On the other hand, religions are a perfectly valid target. They are made of real people who have real views and conduct themselves in real ways. Noob-pwn's bile is aimed at these institutions.... 

EDIT: Hey, FB, you read the Old Testament? Mmm, love...?

And, have you thought that NP's hatred could be because he had really bad experiences with the church? Can, in your view, churches do no wrong?

EDIT 2: I'd really like FB to respond to some of my points. I'm feeling lonely....


----------



## Naren

ZeroSignal said:


> I wouldn't exactly agree with you on that one. You have to ask yourself, _what_ is making him feel that way?



 I think he chose a pretty strong way to say it, but I can definitely see where he's coming from.

Anything you believe should be questioned.

Here's that quote from Thomas Jefferson:



> Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry from any fear
> of its consequences. If it ends in the belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise...





FlyingBanana said:


> Sad. You feel threatened by a God that loves you, and you are upset by me saying it...and dare I say it, you are torn up inside by your hatred.



 Where did he say he was threatened by God? Much like me, he doesn't believe in God. That doesn't mean I don't put my trust in God or anything like that. I don't believe that God exists. Just like if I was angry at some polytheistic religion for the nonsense that they taught me, that doesn't mean I'm angry at their gods, because I don't believe their gods exist. Just like I don't believe in a great big green giraffe that rules over the universe or a three-headed demon.

You've been consistently operating in this thread under the assumption that people who don't believe in God DO believe in God, but are mad at him. You're projecting your own beliefs on others.

And if he is filled with hate, ever thought of WHY?


----------



## hairychris

Naren said:


> You've been consistently operating in this thread under the assumption that people who don't believe in God DO believe in God, but are mad at him. You're projecting your own beliefs on others.



That's _exactly_ what I was trying to say but lost control of the English language... 

EDIT: And looking back at FB's statement that noob_pwn quoted:

"Again, it's all about choices. God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son. If you don't you'll have to deal with the results of that sooner or later, whatever those might be."

That's a threat. It's got a definite mafiosi thing going on if you speak it out loud with a bad New York Italian accent...

Any choice which has an 'or else' attached to it is a threat. FlyingBanana - do you know what a threat is?? Then again, as Christianity teaches it's believers that they are _nothing_ without their belief (I'm using your own word 'nothing' here) I'm sure that this line of enquiry has never popped up in your conciousness....

Anyway, backtracking, how can something that (as far as I know) does not exist either give me choices or make threats?


----------



## Naren

hairychris said:


> EDIT: And looking back at FB's statement that noob_pwn quoted:
> 
> "Again, it's all about choices. God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son. If you don't you'll have to deal with the results of that sooner or later, whatever those might be."
> 
> That's a threat. It's got a definite mafiosi thing going on if you speak it out loud with a bad New York Italian accent...





I just imagined it word-for-word like this with a heavy New York Godfather style Italian accent.

"Again (pause), it's all about choices (shrug while frowning). God gives you a choice to accept Him and His Son (pause, turn to look at the guy for a few seconds). If you don't, you'll have to deal with the results of that, sooner or later... (sinister grin) whatever those might be. ("knowing" smirk)"


----------



## arktan

^^


----------



## hairychris

Aye, put Brando in a priest's vestments & smoking a cigar: the effect would be perfect....


----------



## Psyclapse

Here's a fun (possibly offensive) way to look at who has God and religion in their lives. I'm certainly not trying to defame your religion so work with me on this one.

Imagine, if you will, that religion is a sexually transmitted disease. Some of us have it, some of us don't and never will and some of us have it but really aren't sure (example - carriers of HPV). Parents can pass it on to their children if they have it. You can learn about it and possibly even get it from someone else who is very involved. And if you do have it, there are great big groups of people who meet every Sunday, or other days depending on which STD you have, where you can talk about it, learn about it and come to understand and keep it for the rest of your life.

But what about those cases where someone had it but was able to get rid of it? Well, it takes a lot of time, perseverance and the right medication for someone to rid themselves of it but it is possible and has been done. 
.
.
.
.

Ok, I should probably stop now...

At any rate, I'm trying to prove that there is a multitude of ways to look at religion and God, example - The Flying Spaghetti Monster... "Can I get a Ramen?" But the problem is that everyone thinks everyone else is wrong, unless everyone agrees with you. So the best way to look at it is - live and let live. 

Unless of course someone is being a dick about it and you feel the need to protect yourself and your beliefs. But do so in a calm manner that won't lead to bans and/or violence. Even if you don't believe he existed, Jesus had a lot of great ideas and had a lot to teach us. So there's no reason we can't just accept the Bible as a fantastic code of conduct.

I really should quit before this ends up becoming a mushy, novel-length story of tolerance.

Psyclpase, Out!... For now


----------



## hairychris

^ That's been suggested by Dawkins & others. Memes are one way of looking at religion, and also the fact that as children we are very impressionable (an evolutionary necessity if we are to learn to survive as a highly social animal - we must learn the _rules_).

If a respected member of the community tells a child that, say, the earth is 6000 years old in exactly the same way as they're told not to play in traffic then the impressions are going to be equally strong. One statement prevents immediate accidents, the other is an irrational world view that will be held even against strong evidence.

If we take an adult, they are more likely to be skeptical - although, obviously, if they hold a belief that's been instilled in them then they will be skeptical about other people's irrational claims* rather then their own.

* Yes, some believers focus reason on their own beliefs & give them up, but they are the minority.


----------



## petereanima

i belive in Elfs, because the book of LOTR says they exist. prove me wrong.


----------



## Psyclapse

petereanima said:


> i belive in Elfs, because the book of LOTR says they exist. prove me wrong.



It's funny to think about something like that because if LOTR was written hundreds of years ago and the author was unknown and people of the time latched onto the words of Gandalf as gospel, then we could have ended up with a much more literal "Lord" of the Rings.

So what makes the bible any different? Is it the language? Is it the fact that it was written an unknown number of years ago by an unknown author(s)? Or is it the fact that the people of the era supposedly documented in the bible were so impressionable that the few literate people of the time were commissioned to write a code of laws and ethics for the commoners to live by so they didn't just kill each other and rape women and steal each others propety? 

Religion was the law back then, so now that we actually have a functioning system of law and government, can we stop believing in the bible as the final word of truth?


----------



## hairychris

What's entertaining is that one of the reason the Tolkein wrote LOTR was because we don't have a strong mythological history here in England so he created a surrogate. There are bits & pieces but on the whole it's disappeared.

A bit OT but there you go. 

You do have a point there Psyclapse - the rule of law works much better if you back it up with supernatural threats. This is certainly the case in more primative cultures, just look at the Old Testament. The ancient Jewish people saw specific pieces of land as their god given right, and the god that they worshipped encouraged insularity and obedience to the priesthood. In an environment of warring tribes this cohesion & sense of purpose would be a tactical advantage.


----------



## FlyingBanana

An even more sad thing is that most of you feel threatened by little old me telling you that God wants you and loves you. That is just crazy.

Flame on...I don't really care.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> An even more sad thing is that most of you feel threatened by little old me telling you that God wants you and loves you. That is just crazy.
> 
> Flame on...I don't really care.



It's called a "debate". No one is threatened by anyone. Especially you. 

And I notice you did not have a response to anyone's viewpoints? Interesting...


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> An even more sad thing is that most of you feel threatened by little old me telling you that God wants you and loves you. That is just crazy.
> 
> Flame on...I don't really care.



Ok, I was going to keep quiet and stick to polite debate but you had to jump back on your high horse and come back with that little gem. Where did all this bullshit come up about feeling threatened? NO ONE HERE CARES ABOUT GOD AND RELIGION. You know what FB, I'll prove it right here.

God, if you're paying attention, strike me down with a heart attack right now!!! 
.
.
.
.
.
Guess what, I'm still here. Now if that doesn't debunk your little "You're all threatened by God, blah blah blah" argument, I don't know what will! Fucking news flash dude, you're not right about any of this! But the funny thing is, neither am I, or neither is Naren or ZeroSignal, or Demoniac. We all have our own ideas and they're important to us *and only us*. But you feel like your imaginary relationship with God should be shared with everyone because of how good it makes you feel. But have any of us hinted at how awful our lives are without God? NO, we're all perfectly content living our lives without religion guiding/forcing our every move because we've all found something else that makes us happy. And when your religion finally lets you down I hope you have something to fall back on because I'm guessing you'll be one miserable bastard. 

Now I know that everyone in your little knitting circle is Christian and doesn't dare talk about anything other than God's love, but welcome to reality big guy. Now, why don't you jump off your tower and come down to the ground and be human with the rest of us for a while.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Psyclapse said:


> Ok, I was going to keep quiet and stick to polite debate but you had to jump back on your high horse and come back with that little gem. Where did all this bullshit come up about feeling threatened? NO ONE HERE CARES ABOUT GOD AND RELIGION. You know what FB, I'll prove it right here.
> 
> God, if you're paying attention, strike me down with a heart attack right now!!!
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> *Guess what, I'm still here.* Now if that doesn't debunk your little "You're all threatened by God, blah blah blah" argument, I don't know what will! Fucking news flash dude, you're not right about any of this! But the funny thing is, neither am I, or neither is Naren or ZeroSignal, or Demoniac. .


 

Don't worry, there's still some daylight left. Bwahhaahaa


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Don't worry, there's still some daylight left. Bwahhaahaa



Talk about threatening. 

Does your God know you're talking like that?


----------



## JBroll

[action=JBroll]has a heart attack[/action]

Fucker... missed... that bastard...

Oh, well, not like I was using the thing.

Jeff


----------



## Psyclapse

JBroll said:


> * JBroll has a heart attack
> 
> Fucker... missed... that bastard...
> 
> Oh, well, not like I was using the thing.
> 
> Jeff





Aiming for Ohio and he hits Texas? Depth perception must suffer when you're all the way up there in Heaven.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Psyclapse said:


> Aiming for Ohio and he hits Texas? Depth perception must suffer when you're all the way up there in Heaven.


 
Blasphemy at its finest.....you guys are a real piece of work....no threats....quit getting all defensive.


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> Blasphemy at its finest.....you guys are a real piece of work....no threats....quit getting all defensive.



We're just passing time... Waiting...


----------



## FlyingBanana

ZeroSignal said:


> We're just passing time... Waiting...


 

......for what?

till hell freezes over?

like that's gonna happen


----------



## ZeroSignal

ZeroSignal said:


> We're just passing time... Waiting...





FlyingBanana said:


> ......for what?
> 
> till hell freezes over?
> 
> like that's gonna happen



|
|
V



ZeroSignal said:


> And I notice you did not have a response to anyone's viewpoints? Interesting...


----------



## Daemoniac

Psyclapse said:


> you're not right about any of this! But the funny thing is, neither am I, or neither is Naren or ZeroSignal, or Demoniac. We all have our own ideas and they're important to us *and only us*.



_*YES!!!!!*_

Rep for you sir. This is exactly what i was trying to get at with my first few posts however many pages ago it was. I dont care what other people believe, because it is important to them, as long as im not on the receiving end of a threat "oh... you dont believe in God? You're going to hell... _unless..._"


----------



## FlyingBanana

ZeroSignal said:


> |
> |
> V


 

....well

Someone posted before that this thread was just turning into a bashing each other thread. I agree.

I have tried to be courteous and understanding and refrain from getting all bent out of shape over being subjected to your verbal onslaught with all the neg reps and what you guys are posting on here.

I just don't think many of you are open to God's Word right now, and that's not a good thing, but I accept it.

So, I am not ignoring you, just taking a backseat and letting you guys cool down.

Take care.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ Yeah, see that is what we wanted _BEFORE_, to cool it with trying to convert us 'to gods word'. Thats the reason we were getting so pissed off, its not because we are horrible people full of hate, its just that its _really really annoying _being 'converted' to something we have absolutely no interest in, even after saying that repeatedly..._. _So thank you if you are actually going to stop, we have nothing against _your_ beliefs, as long as you remember that they are just that: _Yours_ not _ours_.


----------



## Brendan G

FlyingBanana said:


> I just don't think many of you are open to God's Word right now, and that's not a good thing, but I accept it.


What you fail to see is that quite a few of the Atheists/Agnostics on this board used to be affiliated with some religion (Including myself) i.e. open to the word of God to some degree, and for whatever reason they lost their faith, and no longer believe in God or doubts its existence, and anyone can see some faulty logic in believing in the words of something you don't believe even exists.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

FlyingBanana said:


> Blasphemy at its finest.....you guys are a real piece of work....no threats....quit getting all defensive.



The only one I see being defensive here is you dude. No one here cares about religion, and you do, and if you think it adds meaning/value/happiness to your life, kudos to you, but thinly veiled threats of what might happen to us in the afterlife if we don't accept your religion is no way to participate in a discussion or debate.


----------



## TonalArchitect

FlyingBanana said:


> ......for what?
> 
> till hell freezes over?
> 
> like that's gonna happen



Why not? Dante's hell had a lot of cold.

Why should we wait for Milton's Hell to be frozen when Cania already is?


----------



## Daemoniac

You know what else has a lot of cold? The icy stares FB would be shooting us right now if we were in the same room...


----------



## TonalArchitect

I shouldn't know why, I referred to epic poetry of yore. 

I actually don't know why John Milton's Hell became more popular.

Speaking of Dante, it would be odd/interesting if after death, if you were just good enough to be in Purgatory, you purged your sin and walked up a mountain to heaven. Yeah, I know, metaphors and such, but it would be odd were it literal.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> You know what else has a lot of cold? The icy stares FB would be shooting us right now if we were in the same room...


 

ehhh....

I know you guys...some of you anyways...are trying to see if I get all pissy and start slinging crap.

It won't happen. I am a changed person. Ever since I received the Holy Spirit in my heart, I just cannot be bothered. 

I mean, on the surface, I really don't want an inbox filled with spam neg reps, but it's all superficial man.

Nothing is worth beating each other up over. 

Take it easy and go fishing or something. 

Cheers.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ I never said that 



TonalArchitect said:


> I shouldn't know why, I referred to epic poetry of yore.
> 
> I actually don't know why John Milton's Hell became more popular.
> 
> Speaking of Dante, it would be odd/interesting if after death, if you were just good enough to be in Purgatory, you purged your sin and walked up a mountain to heaven. Yeah, I know, metaphors and such, but it would be odd were it literal.



It would be. Dante's divine comedy is incredible, something ive been meaning to re-read actually, cheers for the reminder


----------



## twiztedchild

Just for the HELL of it  


This Pastor guy that I knew a few years back told me that Hell and haven are what you think it is. then he went to to explain that. something like:


If you believe that hell is a bunch f women raping you for eternity then that is what hell if be for you. and Also, if you think that haven is just a bunch of a place of Fire and brimstone then it will be.

And Yes I know that most people will think that those t should be switched but that was pretty much what the guy said. I can't remember his exact words though but it was something to that extent.

Anyways, I have said this before. and some other people have said this. No one will agree with any one else about this crap.  just leave it at that. IF you believe that you goto Heaven when you die, then good for you and more power to you. But maybe South park is right and ONLY Mormons get into heaven.  all joking aside, this is just one long ass thread where everyone gets pissed at someone else.

Like Naren basically telling me to Fuck off, In a nicer way  because I was "posting Non-Sense" in here. I didn't do anything to the guy. nor do I think he is an ass hole now. but it is the fact that when something like this topic comes up it changes everyone into insult throwing morons tat think they are ALL right. when In fact No one is Right OR Wrong.

So, please just realize that this is a point less thread. And if you guys REALLY want to talk about this topic. go find a Church forum to do it in. Because this is NOT the place to be doing this. It is a Music and Guitar forum. "Not a What I believe is right, go fuck yourself forum"


So really, the Bible does teach to Love thy Neighbor and one another. Does it not? Yes I know I don't believe in it. but still most of you guys seem to and you don't follow that. So why even continue this topic??


----------



## FlyingBanana

twiztedchild said:


> Just for the HELL of it
> 
> 
> This Pastor guy that I knew a few years back told me that Hell and haven are what you think it is. then he went to to explain that. something like:
> 
> 
> If you believe that hell is a bunch f women raping you for eternity then that is what hell if be for you. and Also, if you think that haven is just a bunch of a place of Fire and brimstone then it will be.
> 
> And Yes I know that most people will think that those t should be switched but that was pretty much what the guy said. I can't remember his exact words though but it was something to that extent.
> 
> Anyways, I have said this before. and some other people have said this. No one will agree with any one else about this crap.  just leave it at that. IF you believe that you goto Heaven when you die, then good for you and more power to you. But maybe South park is right and ONLY Mormons get into heaven.  all joking aside, this is just one long ass thread where everyone gets pissed at someone else.
> 
> Like Naren basically telling me to Fuck off, In a nicer way  because I was "posting Non-Sense" in here. I didn't do anything to the guy. nor do I think he is an ass hole now. but it is the fact that when something like this topic comes up it changes everyone into insult throwing morons tat think they are ALL right. when In fact No one is Right OR Wrong.
> 
> So, please just realize that this is a point less thread. And if you guys REALLY want to talk about this topic. go find a Church forum to do it in. Because this is NOT the place to be doing this. It is a Music and Guitar forum. "Not a What I believe is right, go fuck yourself forum"
> 
> 
> So really, the Bible does teach to Love thy Neighbor and one another. Does it not? Yes I know I don't believe in it. but still most of you guys seem to and you don't follow that. So why even continue this topic??


 
If this isn't the place to be posting stuff like this, then why is there a thread about it? I didn't start it. 

Just adding to it like you and everyone else.


----------



## twiztedchild

FlyingBanana said:


> If this isn't the place to be posting stuff like this, then why is there a thread about it? I didn't start it.
> 
> Just adding to it like you and everyone else.



because the Thread starter need to go there also 

Just saying it is stupid for you guys to start shit over this topic when this isn't really the RIGHT place to be bringing it up. thats what I'm saying.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> You know what else has a lot of cold? The icy stares FB would be shooting us right now if we were in the same room...


----------



## twiztedchild

FlyingBanana said:


>





see it is justa bunch on Nonsence going back and forth


----------



## FlyingBanana




----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Blasphemy at its finest.....you guys are a real piece of work....no threats....quit getting all defensive.



YES!! I was waiting for that word to show up - Blasphemy.

It even sounds fun just to say it... Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy Blasphemy!!

You and I have a very different opinion on what we consider blasphemy. You consider poking fun at God blasphemy. I, however, consider poking fun at Master of Puppets blasphemy. But the funny thing is, I know there are people who hate Metallica and are going to say things like, "Master of Puppets sucks and so does Metallica lol!!" But to them, I have this to say

 

Because I don't care. You, on the other hand, obviously do and it hurts and bothers you that we can be so cynically jovial about God. So take the advice of that one neg rep and lighten up 

And to those of you who concur with me and offer your kind words in positive rep, I thank you because I know this is a difficult topic to discuss but you're all taking it like champs and doing it with gusto! I'm so glad I joined this forum!


----------



## twiztedchild

FlyingBanana said:


>



OMG! dude you Avaar is fucking awessome now


----------



## Psyclapse

And as an aside...



twiztedchild said:


> Just saying it is stupid for you guys to start shit over this topic when this isn't really the RIGHT place to be bringing it up. thats what I'm saying.



But the beauty of it is is that, from what I've seen in my short time on this forum, everyone here is very intelligent and level headed. It's impossible to discuss such a wide array of topics on something like Myspace because all you get is, "MileE CyRuS is sooooo CuUuTEE LoL!!!!1" Like I said, I'm extremely glad I joined this forum because the people here are great and able to carry on an intellectual discussion one second, then joke about nonsense the next.


----------



## twiztedchild

Psyclapse said:


> And as an aside...
> 
> 
> 
> But the beauty of it is is that, from what I've seen in my short time on this forum, everyone here is very intelligent and level headed. It's impossible to discuss such a wide array of topics on something like Myspace because all you get is, "MileE CyRuS is sooooo CuUuTEE LoL!!!!1" Like I said, I'm extremely glad I joined this forum because the people here are great and able to carry on an intellectual discussion one second, then joke about nonsense the next.



I agree. but the fact that there are some of them that decide to agrue for a reson that NO ONE will win is beyond me  and I see alot of the guys here talking in this thread that ARE very intellectual but they turn into something not so intellectual after someone Disagrees with them even though there is no point in getting pissed off about it.


----------



## TonalArchitect

twiztedchild said:


> I agree. but the fact that there are some of them that decide to agrue for a reson that *NO ONE will win* is beyond me  and I see alot of the guys here talking in this thread that ARE very intellectual but they turn into something not so intellectual after someone Disagrees with them even though there is no point in getting pissed off about it.



I do agree that people getting angry and throwing about insults will not get any real benefit, however I do disagree with this view of discussion. 

Especially with content such as this, I think that discussions should not be a win/lose debate designed to reach an absolute truth, but rather an opportunity of persons with varying views to share and learn what other people think on the topic. 

This thread is titled "What do you believe happens when you die?" not "what does happen when you die?"


----------



## twiztedchild

TonalArchitect said:


> I do agree that people getting angry and throwing about insults will not get any real benefit, however I do disagree with this view of discussion.
> 
> Especially with content such as this, I think that discussions should not be a win/lose debate designed to reach an absolute truth, but rather an opportunity of persons with varying views to share and learn what other people think on the topic.
> 
> This thread is titled "What do you believe happens when you die?" not "what does happen when you die?"



true and, even though allot will say that the two go together, it stopped being about "What do you believe happens when you die?" along time ago like about at page 18.

Then, I just saw a bunch of people telling other they were wrong for believing or not believing in something. there is over like what 20 trillion people or something like that in the world? and EVERY one beleives something different. 

But, what ever. Like I sad No one will be right or wrong.


----------



## JBroll

It is also not titled "Attempt to convert others to your beliefs, get defensive when you're criticized, fail to understand any view outside your own, and sidetrack the thread because you don't know how to state your beliefs without trying to sell them", unless I'm misreading something.

Jeff


----------



## twiztedchild

JBroll said:


> It is also not titled "Attempt to convert others to your beliefs, get defensive when you're criticized, fail to understand any view outside your own, and sidetrack the thread because you don't know how to state your beliefs without trying to sell them", unless I'm misreading something.
> 
> Jeff



 Exactly!


----------



## FlyingBanana

JBroll said:


> *get defensive unless I'm misreading something.*
> 
> *Jeff*


 
That ^^  is so true. Both have been done. Good read on yourself.


----------



## Daemoniac

Man this thread has been derailed since around page 25.... so anyone saying "dont derail the thread' will now be neg repped by me.


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana said:


> That ^^  is so true. Both have been done. Good read on yourself.



Defensive, no. Systematic, thorough, and annoyed... yes. The "I am rubber, you are glue" response won't get you far.

Jeff


----------



## FlyingBanana

JBroll said:


> Defensive, no. Systematic, thorough, and annoyed... yes. The "I am rubber, you are glue" response won't get you far.
> 
> Jeff


 

Defensive, yes. Thorough...in your own mind. That's a pretty limiting factor. 

Sorry man. I'm just teasing. I read that afterwards and realized how frickin funny it was.


----------



## JBroll

Considering the depth of your reply, I'd say the limiting factor is spending too much time laughing at your own bad 'jokes'.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

I believe when you die, you die.


----------



## petereanima

hate me for responding to posts from 3 pages before, but:



Psyclapse said:


> It's funny to think about something like that because if LOTR was written hundreds of years ago and the author was unknown and people of the time latched onto the words of Gandalf as gospel, then we could have ended up with a much more literal "Lord" of the Rings.



thats really funny - because its exactly the argumentation i used when my grandparents asked me for my reasons why i left church (in austria you automatically have the same confession as your parents, from birth, and that makes you a member of the church - when you are 18 you can leave, thats what i did) - i told them that to me its just stupid to belive in something only because its written in a book, and that if the Lord Of The Rings would have been written 1000 years earlier, we all would be praying to Gandalf, because he died for us so we can flee.

i dont deny that there is something "above" - because i simply do not know. but i strictly deny the delusional persuasion of _this one and only_ god and his son, and the virgin and the dove, as well as i dont believe in satan, and in the same thought i deny this strange prophet as well as every other strict religion in this world.

@Flying Banana or from whoever the rep-comment is:

i really believe you that you didnt MEAN it offensive, but its coming that way, and its ALWAYS coming that way when religious people start their convincing-tries on others - and that for itself IS offending, at least to me. 

believe in what you want to belive, fine for you, fine for me - but as soon as i hear phrases like "this god loves you why do you hate him"-blabla i'm really getting angry becasue that proofes that the person did either not listen to me or did not understand me, because i do not hate your god, i just dont believe he exists.

with the LOTR comment i really just meant "its a book, and only a book, not more". that is a FACT. and i really think that between the bible and the Lord Of The Rings is (besides the fact that i only like the stories fo the second one) is its age, nothing else. a book. with stories.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ Reason.

It would be pretty damn funny if LOTR was a recognised religion. I think someone should start one: "The Order Of Gandalf The Grey (Soon-to-be-known as Gandalf the White when he is reborn)"


----------



## hairychris

FlyingBanana said:


> An even more sad thing is that most of you feel threatened by little old me telling you that God wants you and loves you. That is just crazy.
> 
> Flame on...I don't really care.



Dude, give us something concrete to work with, or respond directly to questions raised and you might not get flamed.

Going over the past few pages all I can see you doing is failing to understand what drives (at least some) atheists.

EDIT - DEFINITION ALERT: the only thing that atheists have in common is the lack of a belief in deities. No other assumptions can be made, including the reasons for this stance. You can make no assumption as to WHY they don't believe, you have to ask them!

How can we feel threatened by something that does not exists? To be threatened by something you must believe that it has the power to harm you.

You go to church, well, that's cool. However, what your _belief_ boils down to is that you think that the bible is the truth because it says that it is - the ultimate argument from authority. The rational person questions everything, requires levels of proof (we don't trust scientists because they're scientists, but because they can make these proofs in a repeatable fashion on our intellectual behalf, so to speak), and it's this proof that religious texts and traditions do not provide.

To convert me you have to appeal to my reason, not my emotions. Making unsubstantiated threats of eternal torment don't scare me, they irritate me because _there is no evidence that this will happen!!!_

You are already atheist about thousands of other gods - Zeus, Wotan, etc - and we are only atheist about one more: yours*.

I would have to assume that whe we die we go the same way as fish, birds, lizards, donkeys, trees and all the other life on this planet: back to our chemical building blocks. This means that we have to live like it's the last thing that we do...

*Hideously paraphrasing Dawkins, I think....


----------



## Naren

FlyingBanana said:


> Defensive, yes. Thorough...in your own mind. That's a pretty limiting factor.
> 
> Sorry man. I'm just teasing. I read that afterwards and realized how frickin funny it was.



Many of us have been trying to deal with you logically and reasonably, but you have just been ignoring what people have been saying and claiming that everyone but yourself feels threatened. How do we feel threatened when we are the ones who actually answer questions and you dodge them? I'm trying to have a polite discussion using logic and reason.

If you can convince me that there is a God and His son died for my sins, then I will convert to Christianity. But you haven't even tried to do that. You've just made generic statements about God loving everyone or being full of the Holy Spirit. And then you start insulting people, claiming that God is going to strike them dead. Is that in the spirit of the new testament? I think not.

Seeing as you have avoided answering every question and argument thrown your way, you are the one who obviously feels threatened and is being defensive. Use logic.

If you decide to actually have a fair conversation, then some of us are waiting for you to join in.


----------



## hairychris

Naren said:


> If you can convince me that there is a God and His son died for my sins, then I will convert to Christianity. But you haven't even tried to do that. You've just made generic statements about God loving everyone or being full of the Holy Spirit. And then you start insulting people, claiming that God is going to strike them dead. Is that in the spirit of the new testament? I think not.



Well, it's in the spirit of the Old Testament which the more fire & brimstone type of preacher seems to fetishize...



Naren said:


> If you decide to actually have a fair conversation, then some of us are waiting for you to join in.



Yup, the waters fine! 

I certainly haven't neg repped FlyingBanana - I just don't think that he's equipped with the tools to defend his faith from the questions of others in an argument like this. This isn't a dig at FlyingBanana, but rather disappointment that his teachers obviously don't encourage questioning.

Seriously, I'd _love_ to be proved wrong and be given something to really tough to think about.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Naren said:


> If you decide to actually have a fair conversation, then some of us are waiting for you to join in.



This is basically what I'm trying to get at. FB, we are waiting for you to respond to what we have said. So far, all you've been doing is saying that you're getting flamed shrug and that you'll respond when we calm down. We are calm. We've always been calm despite your caustic religious rhetoric. How about that response to our arguments?


----------



## twiztedchild

to who ever neg reped me and didn't leave their name 

were you afraid I would neg rep you or something?? thats the fucking reason Why I posted what I did for that stupid ass reason.
and that also why I think this si just a retarded topic


----------



## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> _*YES!!!!!*_
> 
> Rep for you sir. This is exactly what i was trying to get at with my first few posts however many pages ago it was. I dont care what other people believe, because it is important to them, as long as im not on the receiving end of a threat "oh... you dont believe in God? You're going to hell... _unless..._"



Hey, quick question.... Do you care whether what people believe can be cross checked with physical reality? Do you think that people who make unfounded assumptions that would be ignored in all other discussions should get a free pass?

This is what I'm concerned about, personally, and why I find an overly 'live and let live' approach counterproductive.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ Generally not. Being someone who has a fairly large imagination and being somewhat disturbed emotionally, and having schizophrenic friends, i dont care whether it can be "cross checked" with reality as such, as long as its giving them some reasonable way of furthering their life. Insofar as a productive society goes, i dont think i am a good model for every citizen in that regard, because it means society falls apart.

Although, i do believe that i can at least give somewhat unbiased opinions and some form of reason to some arguments. 

I also believe that people are hypocrites, myself included, and there would be instances where i would go against what i say, making me a hypocrite. I think thats probably the reason that the bible _has_ confession; they realised that every person would at one time or another go against what they believe or what they say.

In short: I believe that it doesnt matter if talking about a set of moral guidelines (especially if it is a set that has been in place for hundreds of years) if they are founded or unfounded, but there are certain assumptions that i do think need correction (ie: theres no such thing as gravity...). One other thing: I dont mind much what the belief is, as long as its done with respect.



ZeroSignal said:


> This is basically what I'm trying to get at. FB, we are waiting for you to respond to what we have said. So far, all you've been doing is saying that you're getting flamed shrug and that you'll respond when we calm down. We are calm. We've always been calm despite your caustic religious rhetoric. How about that response to our arguments?



Myself excluded from that last part, and my apologies for it


----------



## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> ^ Generally not. Being someone who has a fairly large imagination and being somewhat disturbed emotionally, and having schizophrenic friends, i dont care whether it can be "cross checked" with reality as such, as long as its giving them some reasonable way of furthering their life. Insofar as a productive society goes, i dont think i am a good model for every citizen in that regard, because it means society falls apart.



Hm, personally I can separate imagination with more objective reality. I am aware of people who have issues distinguishing between them - however, what may be true to someone's perception may not tie in to the reality which they share with the rest of us.

It takes me back to the old question - if I believe that 2+2=5 with all my heart, does it make it correct when dealing with people external to myself? As far as I'm concerned, if something is wrong or massively improbable in the shared reality, our internal one should reflect it.

Furthering life? I kind of get where your coming from - live a happy 'lie' instead of unhappy 'truth' - but I don't hold it as being valid if you base any actions on it that involve any other being (includes women, children, animals, etc or whatever). Be happy in your own perceptions, yes, but don't project those on me.



Demoniac said:


> Although, i do believe that i can at least give somewhat unbiased opinions and some form of reason to some arguments.



 



Demoniac said:


> I also believe that people are hypocrites, myself included, and there would be instances where i would go against what i say, making me a hypocrite. I think thats probably the reason that the bible _has_ confession; they realised that every person would at one time or another go against what they believe or what they say.



Everyone's hypocritical to one degree or another, even (or especially!) in dealings with ourselves.

However, being hypocritical or not does not affect our reality unless you act on it. 

It also has no bearing on whether views of the physical universe are actually demonstrably true or not.



Demoniac said:


> In short: I believe that it doesnt matter if talking about a set of moral guidelines (especially if it is a set that has been in place for hundreds of years) if they are founded or unfounded, but there are certain assumptions that i do think need correction (ie: theres no such thing as gravity...). One other thing: I dont mind much what the belief is, as long as its done with respect.



Wellllll, as far as morality goes, humanity has developed a sense that, generally, transcends social and racial borders in the major parts. This should go to show that a specific religion does not hold exclusive rights over the term morality.

In fact, you can look at 'morality' in 2 lights. The non-religious version where man must decide what is good for his fellow man and himself, with consequences to the lives of all involved. The religious version is a fixed set of laws that are enforced with a supernatural threat. In christian belief the judgement of these rules can be postponed to after the death of the perpetrator. It's the same mentality of the soldier who commits atrocities because they were ordered to.

This obviously works both ways. Acts of charity are also passed of in the same way - the moral judgment rests with god, not the person who is acting. Most of the time this is relatively harmless but that entire mindset of certainty can easily be misdirected.

Again, borrowing from Dawkins and others, our morality in the western world is almost in spite of religion, not because of it.


----------



## Psyclapse

hairychris said:


> It takes me back to the old question - if I believe that 2+2=5 with all my heart, does it make it correct when dealing with people external to myself? As far as I'm concerned, if something is wrong or massively improbable in the shared reality, our internal one should reflect it.



I don't think that example follows suit with what we're discussing though. 2+2=4 is a fact, a testable, checkable, certifiable fact. We're dealing with spirituality, in which there are no facts except the ones that people perceive to be true. To believe 2+2 equals anything other than 4 would either be a sign of a mental handicap or insanity. To believe that a God who resides in Heaven judges us upon death, albeit strange, is a fact to some people and complete bullshit to others. I know people who think Zeus and Hercules were real... Do I call them crazy? No. Do I think they're wrong? Yes, but they're allowed to think that because there isn't any text or document that actually proclaims they never existed. However, if you open any math book ever it will tell you that 2+2=4 and how it is possible to come to that conclusion.

You offer very good insight and theories on the subject matter. This is all I had ever hoped for this thread and I know it can still be a healthy debate if we just keep personal qualms out of it.


----------



## hairychris

As I'm feeling stupid now, and this paragraphs really densly written, I'll open things up a bit... 



Psyclapse said:


> I don't think that example follows suit with what we're discussing though. 2+2=4 is a fact, a testable, checkable, certifiable fact.



What the mathematical terms '2' '+' '=' and '4' are representations of concepts. We agree on these representations so that we can communicate with each other, and also so that we can perform logical actions on them.

All language represents concepts. This is the similarity that I look at. If you wish to define something using language you must know how to put that concept across. Sounds stupid but it's true. And lots of people don't ()including myself!).

Another point is that the theist argues as if god is a firm, valid, theory. Show me the math that gets there & I may understand you.  However, I will subject it to scrutiny because it really is a very large claim! 



Psyclapse said:


> We're dealing with spirituality, in which there are no facts except the ones that people perceive to be true.



Spirituality is not strictly perception, it's interpretation. My brain is chemically very similar to yours so I have to assume that the input I get is similar to any other human. How I choose to interpret this is up to me. 



Psyclapse said:


> To believe 2+2 equals anything other than 4 would either be a sign of a mental handicap or insanity. To believe that a God who resides in Heaven judges us upon death, albeit strange, is a fact to some people and complete bullshit to others.



Who's to say that the belief in god, or any other mythological story, is not a form of sanctioned insanity? 

First you need a concept of 'god'. This is something that I am waiting for but no-one has been able to satisfactorally explain. How does this god interact with our physical universe? How is this god defined in relation to our physical universe?

Cutting a long argument short, if god does not exist in any way that we can describe or experience it may as well not exist at all. Agnostically saying 'we can never know' is self-defeating. If you admit that you can't define god in terms of reference that are meaningful then you admit that you don't know what the hell you're talking about! 

As for heaven or hell, we need proof. These are a massive claim that is backed up by exactly nothing. Well, the bible doesn't count once you question the ability of any god to interact directly with our universe.

I haven't even scratched the surface here.



Psyclapse said:


> I know people who think Zeus and Hercules were real... Do I call them crazy? No. Do I think they're wrong? Yes, but they're allowed to think that because there isn't any text or document that actually proclaims they never existed. However, if you open any math book ever it will tell you that 2+2=4 and how it is possible to come to that conclusion.



_I'd_ call them crazy, or honestly deluded....

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually, just noticed, you say 'wrong'. That's the whole point. You've made a judgement based on evidence (lack of thunderbolts, women getting ravished by showers of gold, that sort of thing which is a fair indicator that Zeus is around) but you haven't challenged them as to why they have those beliefs! Why give them a free pass? They should be able to defend those views in a rational fashion otherwise they have to admit that they are, well, irrational...!



Psyclapse said:


> You offer very good insight and theories on the subject matter. This is all I had ever hoped for this thread and I know it can still be a healthy debate if we just keep personal qualms out of it.


----------



## Psyclapse

hairychris said:


> What the mathematical terms '2' '+' '=' and '4' are representations of concepts. We agree on these representations so that we can communicate with each other, and also so that we can perform logical actions on them.
> 
> All language represents concepts. This is the similarity that I look at. If you wish to define something using language you must know how to put that concept across. Sounds stupid but it's true. And lots of people don't ()including myself!).



While 2, + and = are all symbols, 2+2=4 is an equation that can be done without symbols. If you have 2 apples and someone gives you 2 apples, you now have 4 apples and you are able to come to that decision without the use of any symbols or characters from any language. It's just quantifiable, while religion is not... Unless, of course, God decides to make himself known.



hairychris said:


> Spirituality is not strictly perception, it's interpretation. My brain is chemically very similar to yours so I have to assume that the input I get is similar to any other human. How I choose to interpret this is up to me.



You're absolutely right but I'm sure we differ in a lot of respects such as what bands we like or what we find attractive in the opposite sex. There are a multitude of things that make us similar but just as many that make us different and none of those differences are wrong.



hairychris said:


> Who's to say that the belief in god, or any other mythological story, is not a form of sanctioned insanity?



Can't argue with that one 



hairychris said:


> First you need a concept of 'god'. This is something that I am waiting for but no-one has been able to satisfactorally explain. How does this god interact with our physical universe? How is this god defined in relation to our physical universe?
> 
> Cutting a long argument short, if god does not exist in any way that we can describe or experience it may as well not exist at all. Agnostically saying 'we can never know' is self-defeating. If you admit that you can't define god in terms of reference that are meaningful then you admit that you don't know what the hell you're talking about!
> 
> As for heaven or hell, we need proof. These are a massive claim that is backed up by exactly nothing. Well, the bible doesn't count once you question the ability of any god to interact directly with our universe.
> 
> I haven't even scratched the surface here.


 
Again, agree 100% that we do need proof but I'm not the kind of guy to piss on anyone's parade. All religions, in my mind's eye, are ridiculous stories created to keep people in check before there was a system of governing law in pre-civilized nations because people were extremely impressionable. But some people today are just as impressionable and allow themselves to think that those stories are true, but you know what I say? Let 'em. Have a ball believing that Jesus died on a cross and was resurrected, or Adam and Eve were the only two people on the planet at one time and managed to procreate the entire human species not taking into consideration that they were Caucasian and today there are black, Asian and Hispanic people all over the planet. Believe whatever you want, but be ready to be encountered with debate and maybe even have to eat crow when you're proven wrong, but also know when and where it's acceptable to discuss your beliefs.




hairychris said:


> _I'd_ call them crazy, or honestly deluded....
> 
> Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Actually, just noticed, you say 'wrong'. That's the whole point. You've made a judgement based on evidence (lack of thunderbolts, women getting ravished by showers of gold, that sort of thing which is a fair indicator that Zeus is around) but you haven't challenged them as to why they have those beliefs! Why give them a free pass? They should be able to defend those views in a rational fashion otherwise they have to admit that they are, well, irrational...!



I don't know, I guess I don't challenge them because they're my friends and I'm not going to allow their beliefs on some mystical cloud beings hide the fact that they're actually nice people who don't try to convince me that they're right. Sure I disagree, but I'm also rational enough to not condemn them for their beliefs, after all, if I did I wouldn't be any better than the crazy religious zealots who do try to convince people they're right.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Well, as a person with Christian beliefs, I cannot physically prove my faith and belief in a Spiritual deity for the same reason that you might not be able to prove your love for someone.

All I can do is state what I believe and how that affects my life. I was aware that many would turn on me like a pack of wolves. That's cool though. I'm not complaining. 

And I think that the fact that God's existence cannot be proven physically is part of the point. It takes something special in our hearts to believe in something that isn't here that we can physically see and touch and smell. 

I also don't really want to risk casting my pearls to the swine as the bible says, but throughout my life, I have often asked myself the question..."Why am I here."

This has always been a big question of mine. 

Anyway, when I was 1, my entire carseat (me included) fell out of my mom's car and onto the busy street she was driving on. I fell out of the carseat and ended up on pavement. Some guy was impatiently homking at my mom to get out of the way so he decides to drive around her and over me. So here I was with a tire track over my chest and in the hospital destined to be a vegetable for the rest of my life. So, my parents called our preacher who came to the hospital and prayed over me...not for last rights, but asking God for a complete healing for me.

Remember that I was non responsive and had a couple of tubes in me and all of that, but I immediately became aware of my surroundings and of my parents and using my mom and dad's description, I literally lept from the bed into my mom's arms. The whole room was astounded and the doctor was called to the room. He checked me out and they ran tests which proved that I had no broken bones, no head injury and it looked like I'd be fine.

They called in more doctors who all said the same thing. They said it was a miracle...literally. 

So, my life has been filled with these kinds of things. I fell 30 feet out of a tree and my head missed the sidewalk by a foot. I was in an accident later in life and my car was bent in half frontways and sideways. In that accident, the driver ran a stop sign, hit me going 45 mph into the driver door. I walked away with a ractured left small toe. I was unconscious for 20 minutes, but ended up being completely fine and didn't stay in the hospital, because they couldn't find anything wrong with me.

There are a few other stories to tell, but I'll save them for another occasion.

So basically, while I cannot prove the existence of God physically to you, I can tell you how He has impacted my life and that He does exist. That's all I can say about that really.

I know He exists and without Him I would be nothing. Quite simply. 

I had a change in my life spiritually, when I was in my early 20's before I got married, (37 now) and this caused me to grow up and become more like a man instead of the 18 year old living in a 25 year old's body. 

And I don't ask why I am here so much anymore now that I am married with two children and a full life.

That's part of my story.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Well, if there is a god you must be his chosen one or some shit, because that stuff never happens to other people 

It just further proves the point of a "cruel" god in most peoples eyes. Why has he saved you from peril countless times, while other people are left to die? It makes no sense. If you say it's because of your faith, you also said you changed spiritually in your early 20's. This means your god can predict the future, hence ruling out free will, and him creating billions of people to damn. 

Personally, I'd just say you're really lucky, but I guess if I had been as lucky as you a bunch of times and cheated death I'd probably be inclined to believe in god myself 

Not trying to disprove your faith, but just giving another perspective on it.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Well, as a person with Christian beliefs, I cannot physically prove my faith and belief in a Spiritual deity for the same reason that you might not be able to prove your love for someone.
> 
> All I can do is state what I believe and how that affects my life. I was aware that many would turn on me like a pack of wolves. That's cool though. I'm not complaining.
> 
> And I think that the fact that God's existence cannot be proven physically is part of the point. It takes something special in our hearts to believe in something that isn't here that we can physically see and touch and smell.
> 
> I also don't really want to risk casting my pearls to the swine as the bible says, but throughout my life, I have often asked myself the question..."Why am I here."
> 
> This has always been a big question of mine.
> 
> Anyway, when I was 1, my entire carseat (me included) fell out of my mom's car and onto the busy street she was driving on. I fell out of the carseat and ended up on pavement. Some guy was impatiently homking at my mom to get out of the way so he decides to drive around her and over me. So here I was with a tire track over my chest and in the hospital destined to be a vegetable for the rest of my life. So, my parents called our preacher who came to the hospital and prayed over me...not for last rights, but asking God for a complete healing for me.
> 
> Remember that I was non responsive and had a couple of tubes in me and all of that, but I immediately became aware of my surroundings and of my parents and using my mom and dad's description, I literally lept from the bed into my mom's arms. The whole room was astounded and the doctor was called to the room. He checked me out and they ran tests which proved that I had no broken bones, no head injury and it looked like I'd be fine.
> 
> They called in more doctors who all said the same thing. They said it was a miracle...literally.
> 
> So, my life has been filled with these kinds of things. I fell 30 feet out of a tree and my head missed the sidewalk by a foot. I was in an accident later in life and my car was bent in half frontways and sideways. In that accident, the driver ran a stop sign, hit me going 45 mph into the driver door. I walked away with a ractured left small toe. I was unconscious for 20 minutes, but ended up being completely fine and didn't stay in the hospital, because they couldn't find anything wrong with me.
> 
> There are a few other stories to tell, but I'll save them for another occasion.



That was a very touching story and I'm sorry all those things happened to you throughout your life. I can finally understand why your faith is so strong. If you had just told us that from the start I'm sure we could have avoided a lot of the animosity. 

But had it ever occurred to you (And I can't stress enough that I'm not trying to be a jerk) that you would have healed anyway, had people not prayed for you? Maybe you were just a resilient kid with a fantastic immune system. Throughout my life I've had a lot of near death scares. I was a very sickly and accident prone kid and had to be rushed to the hospital about twice a month for failed lung function or a deadly allergy to bee stings. But each time, when doctors predicted the worst, I always came home and today I like to think of myself of as a vision of health... Except for a few extra pounds. 

But no one prayed for me, my family never asked God to spare me. I just came through each time and never questioned it.



FlyingBanana said:


> So basically, while I cannot prove the existence of God physically to you, I can tell you how He has impacted my life and that He does exist. That's all I can say about that really.
> 
> I know He exists and without Him I would be nothing. Quite simply.
> 
> I had a change in my life spiritually, when I was in my early 20's before I got married, (37 now) and this caused me to grow up and become more like a man instead of the 18 year old living in a 25 year old's body.
> 
> And I don't ask why I am here so much anymore now that I am married with two children and a full life.
> 
> That's part of my story.



I just think too many people, not yourself since you've obviously put a lot of thought into it, jump to the conclusion that God is the reason for all their happiness and wealth in life. No one gives themselves any credit anymore for their achievements. Have you ever thought after accomplishing something that maybe it wasn't God but just your own ability?


----------



## FlyingBanana

Psyclapse said:


> I just think too many people, not yourself since you've obviously put a lot of thought into it, jump to the conclusion that God is the reason for all their happiness and wealth in life. No one gives themselves any credit anymore for their achievements. Have you ever thought after accomplishing something that maybe it wasn't God but just your own ability?


 

Thanks for the kind words. 

As for that last part, I never said it doesn't take effort on our part to succeed here on this earth. That would be akin to me sitting on a couch all day just waiting for God to drop money in my bank account.

In fact, it definitely takes effort and determination to make it in our world. That's part of why I feel that there is such a thing as free will. We all have the choice to succeed or fail in life...same as we all have the choice to accept a higher power or not. 

The bible says this...

2 Thessalonians 3

if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. 

11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.

This was an example that we should not be lazy and expect others to feed us, but to be responsibile for ourselves.

One more from 2 Corinthians 2


6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.




Sure, I think that our lives can be shaped by what happens to us. But we also have the choice to react positively or negatively. Some may claim it was all by chance that they were healed. Some attribute it to divine intervention. I believe God was calling me to him. I chose to answer with faith. This built up over time. I did not suddenly one day say "I believe."

Well kind of, but not that simply.


----------



## Psyclapse

FlyingBanana said:


> Thanks for the kind words.


 




FlyingBanana said:


> As for that last part, I never said it doesn't take effort on our part to succeed here on this earth. That would be akin to me sitting on a couch all day just waiting for God to drop money in my bank account.


 
I'm sorry but I just pictured that, only it was God dropping money by the stack into your lap  I have an over-active imagination.



FlyingBanana said:


> In fact, it definitely takes effort and determination to make it in our world. That's part of why I feel that there is such a thing as free will. We all have the choice to succeed or fail in life...same as we all have the choice to accept a higher power or not.
> 
> The bible says this...
> 
> 2 Thessalonians 3
> 
> if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
> 
> 11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.
> 
> This was an example that we should not be lazy and expect others to feed us, but to be responsibile for ourselves.



Very wise words but what I was getting at is the fact that some people will give credit to God for their own accomplishments in life. I read somewhere that people were saying Andy McKee's guitar playing was the work of God. If you haven't heard him before look him up on Youtube. The man is a genius guitar player and people were saying that his talent was given to him by God, not years of arduous practice and the ability to perfect an extremely difficult playing technique. It seems like more people would be willing to give credit where credit is due; themselves.


----------



## JBroll

Even more frustrating is when doctors and scientists are given no credit for advanced or breakthrough procedures because the family thought their favorite imaginary friend did it all.

Jeff


----------



## FlyingBanana

Psyclapse said:


> I'm sorry but I just pictured that, only it was God dropping money by the stack into your lap  I have an over-active imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> Very wise words but what I was getting at is the fact that some people will give credit to God for their own accomplishments in life. I read somewhere that people were saying Andy McKee's guitar playing was the work of God. If you haven't heard him before look him up on Youtube. The man is a genius guitar player and people were saying that his talent was given to him by God, not years of arduous practice and the ability to perfect an extremely difficult playing technique. It seems like more people would be willing to give credit where credit is due; themselves.


 
 back atcha.

Let me ask you this. Do you think people who tend not to lean towards belief in God and things spiritual might be more inclined to attribute their accomplishments towards themselves anyways? 

As for that guitarist, plays pretty darn good.

Maybe he was born with the talent for music. Some people are just naturally talented in certain areas...some for farming, some for music, some for accounting and some for being a doctor.

I on the other hand am talented...not with music, but with what I do for a living. I have never had training and never went to school for it. Some have to go to school to learn to do what I do.

I give credit for it to God, because I never really had to learn it and it is what allows for me to provide for my family and pay the bills.



JBroll said:


> Even more frustrating is when doctors and scientists are given no credit for advanced or breakthrough procedures because the family thought their favorite imaginary friend did it all.
> 
> Jeff


 
I agree with you partly. However, in the Apocrypha which is a part of the bible that not many people realize even exists, talks about doctors and how they have been given the power to heal...even if you don't believe that.

I have met many doctors who say they don't believe in God, yet see true unexplainable miracles happen ever day to their patients. Even they say that there must be some higher power at work in our lives.

I for one would put myself and my family in the hands of doctors, because I believe their talent of healing was given to them for our sake. 

Don't get mad. I also know it takes years of hard work and study to get doctor's credentials. You have to admit that there is probably something more at play there as well.


----------



## Daemoniac

JBroll said:


> Even more frustrating is when doctors and scientists are given no credit for advanced or breakthrough procedures because the family thought their favorite imaginary friend did it all.
> 
> Jeff



On the note of doctors and religion:

I had a dermoid cyst on my brain when i was younger, and i visited a shitload of doctors, because none of them could seem to figure out what was wrong, and one of them even had the nerve to tell me "it was gods will"...


----------



## JBroll

FlyingBanana, the less optimistic among us also see the many things that could go away with even the slightest bit of divine intervention. The biggest problem is that we can't count on miracles, so when people spend so much of their lives working with the limited knowledge we have to save as many lives as possible it's a massive disservice to them to discount so much of their work with miracles - especially when said miracles don't happen uniformly or fairly. The simple fact of the matter is that Ted Kennedy lives and Chuck Schuldiner doesn't.

Jeff


----------



## thebhef

Just because you don't know how it works doesn't mean its a miracle. Some people don't understand anything about how computers work. It's not magic or the hand of god, or the FSM's noodly appendage. There is science at work. That's how I see the god issue. Just because somethings out of the scope of our understanding, it doesn't mean there's no reason for it. You talk about how some people die, some live. There's a reason, it's just beyond our understanding. Call it god, if you like, there is a logical reason, though.


----------



## FlyingBanana

thebhef said:


> You talk about how some people die, some live. There's a reason, it's just beyond our understanding. *Call it god, if you like*, there is a logical reason, though.


 

That's just your way of keeping the door open to the mere possibility that God exists.

Baby steps....baby steps. 

It's all good.


----------



## JBroll

No, it's really not - it's saying that there might be a possibility, but a rational explanation for things is far better than throwing your hands up and praising Raptor Jesus. 

It's the 'god of the gaps' argument - people may attribute things they don't understand to gods. However, there's a big difference between being called a god and being a god - it's more in the spirit of "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" than "I don't understand how evolution works, therefore God exists and created everything".

In the long run there's little knowledge to be gained from 'God did it' - there used to be many things that were not up for study because they were considered to be divine... once that list started getting shorter the world started getting much better. Physicists will not give up and say "Ah, fuck it, how about that god thing?" because they don't have all the answers - they'll keep asking questions and accept (even if silently) that they don't know everything yet. His statement is closer to Einstein's "inherent harmony and structure to nature" than any Christian god.

Jeff


----------



## FlyingBanana

JBroll said:


> No, it's really not - *it's saying that there might be a possibility,* but a rational explanation for things is far better than throwing your hands up and praising Raptor Jesus.
> 
> Jeff


 

Isn't that what I just said? 

I have some general idea how you guys feel. I think it's a really big deal how one was raised. 

I was never driven crazy by a relgious nut dad, but I did belong to a church for 25 years, got married in that we had to leave. While the previous preacher was alive, everything was grand. He was the glue that held everything together. He preached Christ and practiced what he preached.

I won't get into the details, but when he passed away, the assistant took over and it was downhill from there. That aside however, my family, my wife and I still held onto our faith though we still went and supported things. We did finally have to leave, because it was turning into a...shall we say spiritually dead group of people.

We still have not joined another church, however we do attend various churches we get invited to. I will say that even though I don't belong to a church, my faith has never been stronger, because the Spirit of God does not reside inside of a building and its four walls. It is in each of us. (if we allow)

So anyway, what was my point...oh yes.

Despite whatever negative connotations you may have about Christianity, religion and faith in God, they may have their roots in the stupidity of others, maybe in how religion was served to you, or possibly in how something bad happened and you wondered how it could be if in fact God was all powerful and all loving.

All I can say is this. Things do happen for a reason. If something bad happened to you, try and look past it rather than give up religion entirely. Religion doesn't need to be a church and singing hymns or passing the money jar around etc...It is about your relationship with the Creator.


----------



## Daemoniac

FlyingBanana said:


> your relationship with the Creator.



Seeing as how hes several thousand years old, thats getting too close to pedophilia for my tastes...


----------



## JBroll

That part is really the least important phrase in the entire post. It's also getting nowhere near your deity.

My personal lack of belief comes from different things. I wasn't abused or presented the religion in an overly strict or obnoxious way. The problems came in two places...

First, I read the Bible and was literally disgusted. Before reading the Bible I had become very suspicious of my religion (I was raised Catholic, in a church that was actually very good by Catholic standards) through studying history and its catechism, and I abandoned the religion, turning towards a system much more like yours. Jesus seemed pretty cool, and I was more interested in the unfiltered message than the little bits that are spoonfed to churchgoers. At that point I read the Bible from cover to cover, and almost didn't make it through because of several sections in the Old Testament and the sheer inconsistency and nonsensicality I perceived in the New Testament.

Second, I didn't see gods as necessary or sufficient to explain anything around me, and I came to the conclusion that all-powerful beings were inherently inconsistent with anything resembling logic. After reading the Bible I became a pseudo-deist-pantheist-whatever sort of thing, believing in a deity that more or less set things in motion but could only be actually found in the inherent symmetry and sense of the universe and had no interest in people. I later came to the conclusion that even this was unnecessary through the observation that introducing gods as answers to the big questions didn't answer them in any way - in fact, they only made them more complicated and gave no real possibility for knowledge. At that point I was an atheist.

Now I pretty much lean the same way, although with a more-than-slightly-sarcastic belief in my own divinity (since I always wondered what it would be like to be worshipped, and didn't want to deal with desperate primitives, impressionable children, or sorority girls) - it had nothing to do with bad things happening to me in the usual touched-by-the-priest sense (although I would consider the Bible to be a bad thing that happened to me, I brought that one on myself), or being pissed off by church politics, it just didn't make sense or seem necessary. I felt that no answer and a single big question fit me better than one poor answer and a gazillion questions of every size and shape imaginable.

I can, however, say that I'm easily annoyed by religious people who make it their purpose in life to try to convert me - or go off the deep end and try to bring harm to me for speaking against their beliefs, which happens far too often in the South.

Jeff


----------



## FlyingBanana

JBroll said:


> I can, however, say that I'm easily annoyed by religious people who make it their purpose in life to try to convert me - or go off the deep end and try to bring harm to me for speaking against their beliefs, which happens far too often in the South.
> 
> Jeff


 
Well, I'm not trying to convert you Jeff. Only you can decide what's right for yourself. 

As for someone bringing harm to you for speaking out....have you thought of moving? 

That aside, you have a very intelligent way of writing your posts. I guess religiosity is for us simple folks.


----------



## JBroll

(1) The problem is that it didn't come across that way. Common problem, though.

(2) I'll get around to it - I've been in school, so moving is out of the question without a good transfer. Next year, though, the closest I could be to where I am now is about four hours away and much less pissy.

(3) Thanks, and it probably is. 

In all seriousness, there's an inverse correlation between tendency towards superstition and education level in a lot of fields, the sciences being a big one. People might be religious/spiritual/mystical but they'll lean much more towards Spinoza's 'god' (Einstein) or pantheism (Hawkings) - surprisingly, though, there's not much middle ground before the few ultra-fundagelicals of doom make their mark.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

> What do you beleive... 12-17-2008 11:37 AM Quit harassing FB already. He's only expressing his opinion, albeit in a way more peaceful manner than you. What a jerk!




Well, if he'd stop acting as if everyone who is disagreeing with him is a heathen witch, and gave some respect to the people who asked him to stop posting in the way he was (talking down to the people who dont believe the same thing as him) then i wouldnt have been pissed off. 

Im out.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> Well, if he'd stop acting as if everyone who is disagreeing with him is a heathen witch, and gave some respect to the people who asked him to stop posting in the way he was (talking down to the people who dont believe the same thing as him) then i wouldnt have been pissed off.
> 
> Im out.


 

 Someone stuck up for me!??

That's awesome! 

Demoniac...be upset all you want. I can speak my opinion as much as you can speak yours. Sounds like you need tougher skin, and last I checked, we were all discussing the pros and cons of religion....most of us.


----------



## Daemoniac

No, see thats just the thing. You werent 'just speaking your opinion', you were 'speaking yuor opinion while hinting at the eternal damnation that awaits us non-believers due to our lack of faith in an attempt to convert us"


----------



## Thrashmanzac

Thrashmanzac said:


> hopefully when i die it will be just like the end credits of a really awesome movie, where the cast of my life scrolls down, then if there are no funny bloopers to watch i will turn the credits off and that will be it



 i got neg rep for this
but yeah i dont think too much into death, because i really dont know. i assume that i will just cease existing in a mental sense and that my physical self will promptly return to dust ( i plan to be cremated) becasue to me that seems the most logical of solutions, however it is not the most appealing. some people want logical, some want someing a bit more comforting, imo that is the role religion plays in this debate


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> No, see thats just the thing. You werent 'just speaking your opinion', you were 'speaking yuor opinion while hinting at the eternal damnation that awaits us non-believers due to our lack of faith in an attempt to convert us"


 

You are also entitled to think what you want to think. That's the plus side of living in a relatively free society still. 

Remember that no man can judge another man to his salvation. Bible says that. I never told you that you were going to hell.

Please stop now....my ribs are hurting so much from laughing soo hard.


----------



## Daemoniac

FlyingBanana said:


> Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.
> 
> Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?
> 
> I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?
> 
> Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.
> *
> One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man? *
> 
> Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?



We dont believe he exists. We dont believe he goes to lengths to make himself known because _we dont believe a nonexistant deity can do that._



FlyingBanana said:


> Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)
> 
> I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.
> 
> Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.
> 
> God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."





FlyingBanana said:


> Sad. You feel threatened by a God that loves you, and you are upset by me saying it...and dare I say it, you are torn up inside by your hatred.
> 
> By the way, your life doesn't sound so great. If it were, you wouldn't be posting messages about how much hatred you have inside. You'd be living your great life. You might re-think what it is you actually hate. You might be surprised at the real answer if you took the time to be honest with yourself.
> 
> Take care buddy.



I dont feel threatened, i feel annoyed that you would apply a set of teachings i dont believe in to me.



FlyingBanana said:


> An even more sad thing is that most of you feel threatened by little old me telling you that God wants you and loves you. That is just crazy.
> 
> Flame on...I don't really care.



Again, not threatened, annoyed. God might want me, i dont want 'him'.



FlyingBanana said:


> Don't worry, there's still some daylight left. Bwahhaahaa


\

Threat covered by joke.



FlyingBanana said:


> Blasphemy at its finest.....you guys are a real piece of work....no threats....quit getting all defensive.



Again, applying a religious set of beliefs to a non-religious set of people. And from what i can tell, you are the one getting defensive.



FlyingBanana said:


> Well, as a person with Christian beliefs, I cannot physically prove my faith and belief in a Spiritual deity for the same reason that you might not be able to prove your love for someone.
> 
> All I can do is state what I believe and how that affects my life. I was aware that many would turn on me like a pack of wolves. That's cool though. I'm not complaining.
> 
> And I think that the fact that God's existence cannot be proven physically is part of the point. It takes something special in our hearts to believe in something that isn't here that we can physically see and touch and smell.
> 
> I also don't really want to risk casting my pearls to the swine as the bible says, but throughout my life, I have often asked myself the question..."Why am I here."
> 
> This has always been a big question of mine.
> 
> Anyway, when I was 1, my entire carseat (me included) fell out of my mom's car and onto the busy street she was driving on. I fell out of the carseat and ended up on pavement. Some guy was impatiently homking at my mom to get out of the way so he decides to drive around her and over me. So here I was with a tire track over my chest and in the hospital destined to be a vegetable for the rest of my life. So, my parents called our preacher who came to the hospital and prayed over me...not for last rights, but asking God for a complete healing for me.
> 
> Remember that I was non responsive and had a couple of tubes in me and all of that, but I immediately became aware of my surroundings and of my parents and using my mom and dad's description, I literally lept from the bed into my mom's arms. The whole room was astounded and the doctor was called to the room. He checked me out and they ran tests which proved that I had no broken bones, no head injury and it looked like I'd be fine.
> 
> They called in more doctors who all said the same thing. They said it was a miracle...literally.
> 
> So, my life has been filled with these kinds of things. I fell 30 feet out of a tree and my head missed the sidewalk by a foot. I was in an accident later in life and my car was bent in half frontways and sideways. In that accident, the driver ran a stop sign, hit me going 45 mph into the driver door. I walked away with a ractured left small toe. I was unconscious for 20 minutes, but ended up being completely fine and didn't stay in the hospital, because they couldn't find anything wrong with me.
> 
> There are a few other stories to tell, but I'll save them for another occasion.
> 
> So basically, while I cannot prove the existence of God physically to you, I can tell you how He has impacted my life and that He does exist. That's all I can say about that really.
> 
> I know He exists and without Him I would be nothing. Quite simply.
> 
> I had a change in my life spiritually, when I was in my early 20's before I got married, (37 now) and this caused me to grow up and become more like a man instead of the 18 year old living in a 25 year old's body.
> 
> And I don't ask why I am here so much anymore now that I am married with two children and a full life.
> 
> That's part of my story.



This, is the only fully reasonable post you have made. I can fully understand why you have religion as a part of your life, and believe what you do. Which is fine. Stop telling me that im crazy for not believing.



FlyingBanana said:


> That's just your way of keeping the door open to the mere possibility that God exists.
> 
> Baby steps....baby steps.
> 
> It's all good.



Again, goading and prodding at people for not believing, and pushing the one person who _hinted_ that they may have some form of spiritual belief you are now pushing eagerly towards the bible.



FlyingBanana said:


> You are also entitled to think what you want to think. That's the plus side of living in a relatively free society still.
> 
> Remember that no man can judge another man to his salvation. Bible says that. I never told you that you were going to hell.
> 
> Please stop now....my ribs are hurting so much from laughing soo hard.



There are so many condescending remarks in the above posts its not funny. Every second line is about how everyone would 'benefit from letting god into their lives' and how we are wrong for 'trying to disprove' god or religion. Speaking personally, i dont try and disprove it. Rather, i take swipes at it. Maybe because i want to believe it deep down, because, like has already been said, death is a scary thing, but its just so utterly ridiculous (to me) that its just easier to have a bit of fun with it. Unfortunately, yeah, i get a bit carried away and come off as being more than aggressive.

_You_ on teh other hand cannot possibly understand why or how anyone could possibly not believe in god, or follow your religion, and instead of accepting it, have thrown in hints and subtle threats to your posts to make us 'believe' in the being that it is impossible to prove exists.

EDIT: Just to set the record straight also, i am _not_ angry at your faith, i am _not_ trying to put your beliefs down, and i am _not_ trying to say that your beliefs are worthless. I am annoyed with _you_ and the way you have gone about communicating those beliefs.


----------



## JBroll

Demoniac said:


> EDIT: Just to set the record straight also, i am _not_ angry at your faith, i am _not_ trying to put your beliefs down, and i am _not_ trying to say that your beliefs are worthless. I am annoyed with _you_ and the way you have gone about communicating those beliefs.



The point, as direct as can be. Misinterpret this if you dare!

Jeff


----------



## Naren

FlyingBanana said:


> Isn't that what I just said?
> 
> I have some general idea how you guys feel. I think it's a really big deal how one was raised.
> 
> I was never driven crazy by a relgious nut dad, but I did belong to a church for 25 years, got married in that we had to leave. While the previous preacher was alive, everything was grand. He was the glue that held everything together. He preached Christ and practiced what he preached.
> 
> I won't get into the details, but when he passed away, the assistant took over and it was downhill from there. That aside however, my family, my wife and I still held onto our faith though we still went and supported things. We did finally have to leave, because it was turning into a...shall we say spiritually dead group of people.
> 
> We still have not joined another church, however we do attend various churches we get invited to. I will say that even though I don't belong to a church, my faith has never been stronger, because the Spirit of God does not reside inside of a building and its four walls. It is in each of us. (if we allow)
> 
> So anyway, what was my point...oh yes.
> 
> Despite whatever negative connotations you may have about Christianity, religion and faith in God, they may have their roots in the stupidity of others, maybe in how religion was served to you, or possibly in how something bad happened and you wondered how it could be if in fact God was all powerful and all loving.
> 
> All I can say is this. Things do happen for a reason. If something bad happened to you, try and look past it rather than give up religion entirely. Religion doesn't need to be a church and singing hymns or passing the money jar around etc...It is about your relationship with the Creator.



No. As I already mentioned, I grew up in a very very strong Christian family and went to church every week and went to a Christian junior high and high school. But I am an atheist. Was that because Christians were really mean to me or tyrants? No. They were all very very nice. Many of my best friends were Christians. I love my mom and my step-dad. One of my close friends when I was a teenager was a pastor at a church. He was an amazing person.

Then why am I an atheist? Them being nice or great people does not make me believe that there is a God when I have no reason to believe there is a God from evidence in the real world. I don't need proof. I need "reasons." And I have never had any. I was born from day 1 as a very logical thinking person. Someone I met once said "Your main hindrance to your faith is that you think too logically." And I could not see how that is a bad thing. How is logic bad?

I'm sure a lot of the people who are very bitter at Christianity may have grown up in horrible homes or with oppressive Christian parents, but I'm an athiest and I grew up in a great family and never had any "horrible impressions" of Christians as far as how nice or not nice they are.


----------



## forelander

Psyclapse said:


> I don't think that example follows suit with what we're discussing though. 2+2=4 is a fact, a testable, checkable, certifiable fact. We're dealing with spirituality, in which there are no facts except the ones that people perceive to be true. To believe 2+2 equals anything other than 4 would either be a sign of a mental handicap or insanity.



The argument being made is in regards to where one draws the line between such 'fact' and something that qualifies enough uncertainty to warrant belief in some external force / influence. 

Take this other example. 1 + 1 = 10. Accept for now that this is 'fact.' Gasp everyone says, this is truth but I don't understand, therefore it is the work of God. This is the case we had a few pages back. Then Jongpil joined the fray and said "fuck that, it's not God, there are more reasonable explanations in science that *aren't being properly explored before jumping to conclusions. Examine all the available evidence first.*" The point being, for JP (and many of us), that line I mentioned goes a lot further than 2+2=4. Making any conclusion on anything without proper backing, evidence or justification very much crosses that line.

As for those interested that hadn't figured it out yet, 1 + 1 = 10 is not the work of God and is completely true. You just have to be in a binary number system. It's a silly example, but just shows something that is fact that you don't understand need not be the work of God.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> _EDIT: Just to set the record straight also, i am not angry at your faith, i am not trying to put your beliefs down, and i am not trying to say that your beliefs are worthless. I am annoyed with you and the way you have gone about communicating those beliefs._


 




JBroll said:


> The point, as direct as can be. Misinterpret this if you dare!
> 
> Jeff


 
Misinterpret it? 

Just about all of his posts are negative, demeaning or demoralizing. He is being pushy, forthright, bold and without a kind word. I could go on, but that wouldn't be Christian like.

Show me where I judged anyone to their salvation. Couldn't find it? 

Now show me where I am being persecuted for my beliefs and I'll show you just about every post in this thread. 

Please don't try to get me angry...you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. haha Just kidding. That was a line from Incredible Hulk.


----------



## JBroll

No, the whole time you completely missed the line between stating your beliefs and trying to sell them. You also haven't been persecuted for your beliefs nearly as much as you think you have - what you're being 'persecuted' (more accurately, criticized) for is the completely clueless used-car-salesman tone a lot of your posts put across. Like I and others have been said, you have every right to believe whatever you want to believe and most of us will defend that right - one more time, since you seem to have missed the last half-dozen times this has been stated or implied, the objection is not to your beliefs but to your inability to state them without trying to convert people.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

You arent being persecuted for your beliefs. 

How many times do people have to say this to you??

People are getting annoyed because of the way *you conduct yourself*. NOT because of your beliefs. Its the way you talk towards other members, whether you realise or not (im guessing not) you act like a condescending little kid who doesnt understand we are not interested.



FlyingBanana said:


> I'd like to make an observation if I may.....
> 
> I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.
> 
> The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee.
> 
> No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either.
> 
> I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things.
> 
> Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?




There. Judging us to our salvation. Why? Because apparently we are all heathens who are all about the instant gratimifacation that the devil offers us even though we _DONT BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL._That post contains everything that is annoying me. Why take the chance? Well, clearly we want to. Wouldnt it be better to etc. etc. something about christ? No. Clearly we _arent interested_. If we were, we'd have gone to church, and inducted ourselves into the christian faith.



Demoniac said:


> I believe there is nothing. But id like to. To bbe honest, it actually scares me more than anything i can think of. And not just a 'oh thats scary' kind of fear, its that kind that stays in your heart and brings you down so far its horrible.
> 
> The thought of becoming nothing, of being nothing, and of just passing scares the absolute fucking shit out of me. And theres nothing i can do about it.
> 
> Maybe its a sign that im not as happy as i should be in life at the moment, maybe not, i dont know. But i feel terrified.







What do you beleive... 12-17-2008 03:01 PM here...have some neg rep, you deserve it

Wow, to the S.O.B who negged me for what is quite possibly the only _truly_ meaningful comment i have made, real fucking mature.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> You arent being persecuted for your beliefs.
> 
> How many times do people have to say this to you??
> 
> People are getting annoyed because of the way *you conduct yourself*. NOT because of your beliefs. Its the way you talk towards other members, whether you realise or not (im guessing not) you act like a condescending little kid who doesnt understand we are not interested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There. Judging us to our salvation. Why? Because apparently we are all heathens who are all about the instant gratimifacation that the devil offers us even though we _DONT *BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL*._That post contains everything that is annoying me. Why take the chance? Well, clearly we want to. Wouldnt it be better to etc. etc. something about christ? No. Clearly we _arent interested_. If we were, we'd have gone to church, and inducted ourselves into the christian faith.


 

Oh please. Why are you so sensitive?

I am not condescending. Just sharing my thoughts on what I believe in. If that's so bad...my gosh.

Again I ask, show me where I have judged or condemned you. 

We're just trading jabs now. Not nice.

Im out.


----------



## JBroll

He's not sensitive. You're unable to perceive the way you've come across. It's as simple as that - he has some pretty thick skin, actually, but you might as well have locked him up in a vault with you and made the world's most annoying sound for 24 hours straight.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

FlyingBanana said:


> I'd like to make an observation if I may.....
> 
> I would guess it is easier to follow a path different from belief in Christ, if only because the Devil is all about instant gratification, whereas belief in Christ is about the end result...which is salvation through faith, which is a tough pill to swallow for many because it isn't something you can see and touch.
> 
> The majority of the people in this world are just like that. They are full of the desire for instant gratification, trampling over everyone in rush to get what's theirs....not unlike those people at the Wal Mart that killed that poor employee.
> 
> No one thinks of the consequences of there actions either.
> 
> I say slow down and consider other options in life. I'm pretty sure that most of you have at one time or other have thought about God or some other "higher power" that is ultimately in control of things.
> 
> Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?



Again. Right there. You are condemning me, and everyone not of the Christian persuasion to a 'hell' we dont believe exists. If you are soooo open minded and dont actually believe it, and acccept that all of our views are different, then why even post that?? Of course we dont have the same views, and this post is putting everyone other than you in hell, because we all apparently wanted "instant gratification.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> Again. Right there. You are condemning me, and everyone not of the Christian persuasion to a 'hell' we dont believe exists. If you are soooo open minded and dont actually believe it, and acccept that all of our views are different, then why even post that?? Of course we dont have the same views, and this post is putting everyone other than you in hell, because we all apparently wanted "instant gratification.


 

So then, do you consider yourself in the "majority of the world?"

Also, just because you don't believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist. 
Say that 5 times real fast.

That kind of thinking is rubbish. It's like saying "Did the tree make a sound if I wasn't there to hear it?" 

Can I choose "Because the bible says..." for 200 dollars please Alex?

Again, I never said you are doomed. You claim I did, but can't yet pull out the post. I'm still waiting.

Have a good evening gentlemen.


----------



## Daemoniac

Im not saying it 'doesnt exist' just that i dont believe it. Nor am i saying you are a horrible person for believing it, nor am i saying that you are 'wrong' for believing it. I have pulled out the post twice now. 



> Why take a chance with what might come after you die? Wouldn't it be better to embrace a healthy, Christian lifestyle or at least give some thought to it then to reach the end not knowing what could have been?



Thats saying "if you dont follow christ and his gospels to fulfill the Christian ideal of a good life, you are doomed to an eternity of pain and torment in a hell you dont believe in!!"

And no, i do not consider myself to be indicative of 'the majority of the world', the majority are Christian of one form or another. Funnily enough though, the greatest thinkers and scientists generally arent...


----------



## petereanima

wow, so i just got neg-reped for THIS:



petereanima said:


> personally, i dont think about it very often - i used to when i was younger, but sometime back then came the point when i thought "why should i think about it? i will know it early enough."
> 
> but on the other hand - i catched myself very often to think about it when i worked for the ambulance, talking to regular patients with real aweful lifehistory...like for example a girl, 1 or 2 years younger than me - having this extremely rare skin-disease since birth and its getting worse and worse...if you touch her skin, it breaks, and it will never heal, you can just imagine how disfigured she got form time to time...she was fighting that since forever, and meanwhile it got so worse that they had to take off one leg and one hand...and if thats not enough - she then got cancer too...
> 
> you know, i then found myslef thinking about "this girl is at my age, and her whole life she did nothing but fighting against this disease, but no matter what she will do - the disease will win at the end. i hope that there is an afterlife and that justice happens to her then."



"so depressing, cheer up doofus"

@whoever that was:
? what the fuck, dude, can you explain that to me? oh, i'm very sorry that reading this is "depressing" for you, welcome to the real life. its not the happy peacefull apple-pie thing you think it is, "doofus".


----------



## Daemoniac

Well my apologies for unleashing this storm of neg-rep on people  And to all the people that were _*discussing*_ afterlife possibilities (Petereanima, Zepp88, Tonalarchitect, Psyclapse, Hairychris, Jbroll, Stealthtastic, Naren, Twiztedchild, JJ Rodriguez, Stitch, etc..), you have my apologies for dragging this discussion down the shitter.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

FlyingBanana said:


> Also, just because you don't believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist.



The inverse of that is also true though, just because you believe it doesn't mean it exists.

When we're kids, we believe Santa Clause is real. I imagine when we're really young there isn't a doubt in our minds he exists. Doesn't make it so  I imagine a couple of the people in this thread find the Christian god to be like that, since they once believed, then found their own reasons for not.


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> Well my apologies for unleashing this storm of neg-rep on people  And to all the people that were _*discussing*_ afterlife possibilities (Petereanima, Zepp88, Tonalarchitect, Psyclapse, Hairychris, Jbroll, Stealthtastic, Naren, Twiztedchild, JJ Rodriguez, Stitch, etc..), you have my apologies for dragging this discussion down the shitter.



No problem from me man


----------



## FlyingBanana

Though they remain the same, I apologize again to you guys if you have been offended by my opinions. 

On a side note: 
I just think the whole rep system sucks, because I haven't said one bad word to any of you. I shouldn't have received neg rep for being able to think for myself and believe in God of all things. If I had known you guys were like that, I might not have gotten involved in the discussion. 

And you should be ashamed for the pics you guys left when you rep'd me, considering my beliefs.

I'll just not post anymore and lurk from time to time instead, because after all, there is a lot of good info on here about guitars and amps.

Take care.


----------



## Stitch

You're all acting like a bunch of twelve year olds. Piss off to harmony central with all of this.

FlyingBanana; they way you've behaved in this thread has been that of a jerk but I've just ignored what you've come out with. We can agree to disagree. Some of the stuff in your rep history is hardly appropriate and with any luck the mods (ha) will discipline them. This doesn't mean go away and lurk, although I would suggest just not entering these discussions again.

While there has been attempts at some decent conversation in the course of this thread religion is never a safe topic and at the end I think there were a few cases of people sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'nah nah naaaaaaaaa I can't hear you!'

, I hope.


----------



## twiztedchild

Stitch said:


> You're all acting like a bunch of twelve year olds. Piss off to harmony central with all of this.
> 
> While there has been attempts at some decent conversation in the course of this thread religion is never a safe topic and at the end I think there were a few cases of people sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'nah nah naaaaaaaaa I can't hear you!'
> 
> , I hope.



I said this like ten pages ago.  But I agree with you Stitch.


----------



## Daemoniac

Honestly im surprised at how long this thread ended up... i mean seriously, 45 pages


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> Honestly im surprised at how long this thread ended up... i mean seriously, 45 pages



i know


----------



## hairychris

Er I can only see 12 pages!

And yeah, it does seem to have turned into a neg rep fest. Not great.


----------



## thebhef

FlyingBanana said:


> And you should be ashamed for the pics you guys left when you rep'd me, considering my beliefs.



Yeah, there's some pretty dickish stuff in there. That's bs, and you don't deserve it. That said, you have been pretty dickish through most of the thread that I've read.



FlyingBanana said:


> I'll just not post anymore and lurk from time to time instead, because after all, there is a lot of good info on here about guitars and amps.



Don't post in threads that require you to realize that other people don't secretly believe you're right. Grow up and stop pouting. You've been a jerk.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ This. FB, i dont like what you'ev been saying or how you've been acting, but taht doesnt mean you deserved what got put in your rep... some of those pictures were basically cruel, not to mention offensive.


----------



## twiztedchild

Demoniac said:


> ^ This. FB, i dont like what you'ev been saying or how you've been acting, but taht doesnt mean you deserved what got put in your rep... some of those pictures were basically cruel, not to mention offensive.



However. I loved that Last Supper one  I saved it.


And again for ANYONE that doesn't know, I am an Atheist and to me that pic was funny as hell. But yeah to send it to FB was just mean and retarded a lttle bit. Grade 2 

and all we are doing now is


----------



## ZeroSignal

FlyingBanana said:


> And you should be ashamed for the pics you guys left when you rep'd me, considering my beliefs.



I agree with you on this. The last two were totally unnecessary. Even _I_ found the last one offensive... 

Although, I've always been a fan of that "Atheism: Good Enough For These Idiots" poster.


----------



## Naren

FlyingBanana said:


> And you should be ashamed for the pics you guys left when you rep'd me, considering my beliefs.



Yeah, I agree with you on that. I think that you deserved the neg rep for just being a jerk about everything, but you definitely didn't need any of those pictures, especially the last one. I think it went over the line, considering your beliefs.


----------



## killiansguitar

I hate people that are easily offended.


----------



## Psyclapse

killiansguitar said:


> I hate people that are easily offended.


----------



## stuh84

Woohoo, received my first neg rep, for having an opinion on what happens when I die 

Pathetic


----------



## hairychris

The cake is a lie.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

hairychris said:


> The cake is a lie.



What about the pie?


----------



## Daemoniac

So, now to revive this seemingly dead thread, what do you believe happens just _before_ you die?


----------



## JBroll

You live.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

JBroll said:


> You live.
> 
> Jeff




Or get shot.


----------



## JBroll

You could survive that. Hell, if Reagan can pull it off anyone can.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

Or get stabbed 127 times with a sharpened machete.


----------



## JBroll

That just means you should have practiced your guitar playing more.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

or punched in the groin.

































... with a shotgun


----------



## Harry

Demoniac said:


> Honestly im surprised at how long this thread ended up... i mean seriously, 45 pages



I had no idea this thread had gotten this big, last time I looked at it, it was about 12 pages


----------



## Daemoniac

oh yeah man. You really didnt miss out on much though


----------



## JBroll

You people and your 10-post-per-page tomfoolery. It *is* only 12 pages long.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

_BLASPHEMY!_

























(appropriate, no? )


----------



## hairychris

10 posts per page is so 2004.


----------



## JBroll

2004 is so 1999.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

1999 is the new black.


----------



## JBroll

Black is the new thread derailment that signals the unnecessary prolongation of a thread's demise.

Jeff


----------



## Daemoniac

nonsense. Its just a colour.


----------



## JBroll

I am Jack's neverending self-reference.

Jeff


----------



## arktan

?


----------



## DDDorian

Tell ya what - FlyingBanana's disappeared, so I'll give y'all one more page (that's ten posts, for those playing along at home) to turn this thread back towards serious discussion. If you can keep from postwhoring and neg-repping each other, it'll stay open, for now at least. Fair?


----------



## Daemoniac

Cheers 

Ok, so back to serious discussion: i actually find the buddhist philosophy kind of disturbing... nothingness is the ultimate goal. I quite simply unable to comprehend being 'nothing'...


----------



## JBroll

I always liked "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Jeff


----------



## Harry

Naren said:


> That's called "living in fear" and results in a "I believe in God and Jesus because I'm afraid that I will go to hell if I die and don't believe in God" mentality. And I grew up in a VERY strongly Christian home, went to church every week, went to a Christian junior high and high school, and know the Bible inside and out, but I have zero reason to believe in God.
> 
> I don't believe in something simply because I want to. I believe in something because I have a reason to believe in it. If "God" came and spoke to me, then I would believe in him, but he's never done that (Why? I think he hasn't done so because there IS no "he").
> 
> You're suggesting living a lifestyle worshipping God and Jesus, even though you don't believe he exists (I don't). I cannot believe that there could be a God so cruel and sick that he could create people simply to send them to an eternity of suffering and pain in Hell without once telling them that their ridiculously short existance on Earth was a game or telling them the rules to this game ("You have to believe in me and my son to win, but I'm not going to reveal myself to you. I'm only going to show myself to the Jews and then later the Europeans -- and make most of the people high up in the religion corrupt"). So, you end up dying having never heard of God and, even though you lived a better life than most Christians, you are doomed to an eternity in Hell for not knowing the rules to the game or the goal.
> 
> I believed in God when I was a kid because it's what my parents told me, but when I started thinking "How could God send 99.9% of that country's population to Hell?" when I was in junior high (as an example: less than 0.1% of Japan's population is Christian/Catholic) and I had two choices to believe: God is either evil or God doesn't exist. And I can't believe in an evil God. As I studied astronomy, logic, and other such fields, I found zero reasons to point to God or an afterlife.
> 
> I find it condescending how you act like anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus is being manipulated by "the devil" and the idea that you should just believe in God and follow Jesus in case there IS a Heaven and Hell. Hey. Either you believe it or you don't. It's not something I CHOOSE to believe in. I believe what seems logical and real to me.



I figured i'd bump this post for people that missed it.
I found myself reading this post again and again, just a really great post


----------



## Daemoniac

^ That it is. Its a hard thing finding any form of faith i think, in some ways i look at it as a cop out; 'you dont have the strength to face your fears, so you turn to religion', but at the same time i think it takes more strength to put all your faith in something that cannot be proven. 

Dunno what it would take to convert me to anything  i mean, theres been some fair shit times so far and im still not convinced  Ill probably end up one of those death-bed repenters...


----------



## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> Cheers
> 
> Ok, so back to serious discussion: i actually find the buddhist philosophy kind of disturbing... nothingness is the ultimate goal. I quite simply unable to comprehend being 'nothing'...



Actually, if you look at it as complete acceptance of death as a natural process it's quite a good description. If you accept nothingness you accept that death, which leads to nothingness, is the ultimate destination in our lives.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't do good stuff on the way, or try to hurry your way there, btw.



HughesJB4 said:


> I figured i'd bump this post for people that missed it.
> I found myself reading this post again and again, just a really great post



Naren's posted some very good stuff.


----------



## Daemoniac

hairychris said:


> Actually, if you look at it as complete acceptance of death as a natural process it's quite a good description. If you accept nothingness you accept that death, which leads to nothingness, is the ultimate destination in our lives.
> 
> Doesn't mean you shouldn't do good stuff on the way, or try to hurry your way there, btw.


 
Oh no, i just personally find it hard to accept, seeing as how i have a complete and total phobia of death...


----------



## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> Oh no, i just personally find it hard to accept, seeing as how i have a complete and total phobia of death...



I'm just allergic to it....


----------



## Daemoniac

I think extremists have it the best so far as a fear (or lack of) death goes, not only are they not afraid of it, they _want_ it... possibly due to naivety, possibly stupidity, but theyre not afraid of it thats for damn sure. I kind of envy that sort of strength.


----------



## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> I think extremists have it the best so far as a fear (or lack of) death goes, not only are they not afraid of it, they _want_ it... possibly due to naivety, possibly stupidity, but theyre not afraid of it thats for damn sure. I kind of envy that sort of strength.



No... the reason that extremists want death is that they are convinced that there are infinite rewards on the other side if they die in _x_ cause.

If you thought that a few moments of pain then infinite bliss is cast-iron guaranteed, especially if things are shitty in this life, then it's potentially an attractive proposition.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Something along the lines of:

a) Burnt to a crisp, scattered near some memorial bench/plant/bush/mantlepiece

b) Worm food to be dug up as part of an alien archeological find.


----------



## distressed_romeo

Demoniac said:


> Cheers
> 
> Ok, so back to serious discussion: i actually find the buddhist philosophy kind of disturbing... nothingness is the ultimate goal. I quite simply unable to comprehend being 'nothing'...



Wierd...I've always liked that idea...


----------



## hairychris

7 Dying Trees said:


> Something along the lines of:
> 
> a) Burnt to a crisp, scattered near some memorial bench/plant/bush/mantlepiece



I'll aim for off the back of a cross Channel ferry. Sod this memorial nonsense!


----------



## Tomii Sonic

If you've lived a good life you go to a something like the "Playboy Mansion" version of Guitar Center....with unlimited credit
If you were bad go to a Reggaeton concert.... for Pride week.... in the Arctic


----------



## TonalArchitect

Demoniac said:


> Cheers
> 
> Ok, so back to serious discussion: i actually find the buddhist philosophy kind of disturbing... nothingness is the ultimate goal. I quite simply unable to comprehend being 'nothing'...



I agree, but (and I'm no expert) I thought that oblivion, the 'nothing,' was the lack of want of desire for things, not necessarily slipping into non-existence.


----------



## FlyingBanana

Demoniac said:


> ^ That it is. Its a hard thing finding any form of faith i think, in some ways i look at it as a cop out; 'you dont have the strength to face your fears, so you turn to religion', but at the same time i think it takes more strength to put all your faith in something that cannot be proven.
> 
> Dunno what it would take to convert me to anything  i mean, theres been some fair shit times so far and im still not convinced  Ill probably end up one of those death-bed repenters...


 

Two reasons why people turn to religion are probably an earlier post you made and this one. 

People are afraid of there being nothing after death. People naturally want life or their soul to continue after death. They don't want to simply stop existing after all the effort they put into their life.

And for the second reason...people are afraid of letting go. We always have the desire to be in complete control of ourselves, and that's another reason why some find it so difficult to "give themselves" over to a higher power. That takes the control over your life out of your hands to a certain extent. Still, some do it because it gives them a peace inside that makes them feel ok...that something greater and smarter is in charge taking care of them.


----------



## dooredge

FlyingBanana said:


> Two reasons why people turn to religion are probably an earlier post you made and this one.
> 
> People are afraid of there being nothing after death. People naturally want life or their soul to continue after death. They don't want to simply stop existing after all the effort they put into their life.
> 
> And for the second reason...people are afraid of letting go. We always have the desire to be in complete control of ourselves, and that's another reason why some find it so difficult to "give themselves" over to a higher power. That takes the control over your life out of your hands to a certain extent. Still, some do it because it gives them a peace inside that makes them feel ok...that something greater and smarter is in charge taking care of them.


 
I've tried the way of faith, then the way of no faith. All I can tell you is the way of faith works for me. I've seen enough evidence in my own life to _know_ there is God. I also believe he sent his son to die for my sins and all I have to do is believe and live my life as best I can within his will.

Without spilling my life story on the interwebz, without God I'd be dead.

God bless The Flying Banana!


----------



## Breakdown

Well im pretty sure its feels just like not being conceived you simply dont exist. A dreamless sleep you will never come out from.
Im hoping reincarnation though in another human life form or another world.


----------



## Daemoniac

FlyingBanana said:


> Two reasons why people turn to religion are probably an earlier post you made and this one.
> 
> People are afraid of there being nothing after death. People naturally want life or their soul to continue after death. They don't want to simply stop existing after all the effort they put into their life.
> 
> And for the second reason...people are afraid of letting go. We always have the desire to be in complete control of ourselves, and that's another reason why some find it so difficult to "give themselves" over to a higher power. That takes the control over your life out of your hands to a certain extent. Still, some do it because it gives them a peace inside that makes them feel ok...that something greater and smarter is in charge taking care of them.


 
Absolutely agreed. Thats why there are stories of some form of afterlife in history as far as you can go. They are afraid, and always have been. It is a scary thing, im just not prepared to take that much controlout of my life for something i find _this_ hard to believe in, and theres nothing wrong with that, it works for me.


----------



## Nick

JBroll said:


> Suppose your god is the creator of life. He either did or did not need creation himself; the former option only leads us to an infinite regression of increasingly powerful and complex deities, and the latter option shifts the "how the fuck did that happen?" from simple life to an even more complex and seemingly unnecessary being.




 win


----------



## Nick

ive been slowly reading this thread for about 2 days now. Im a bit dissapointed i didnt get involved in it!

So FB....



FlyingBanana said:


> All I can say is this. Things do happen for a reason. If something bad happened to you, try and look past it rather than give up religion entirely. Religion doesn't need to be a church and singing hymns or passing the money jar around etc...It is about your relationship with the Creator.



so when a junkie rapes and kills one of your kids youl be looking past that because it happened for a reason? I very much doubt that.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

Well, all other bullshit (and good) ideas aside, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, only used/harnessed in some way. Your mind can not be destroyed, being in some way an energetic process, although the physical receptor (the brain) very well can be. I know that is a somewhat odd way of looking at it, but I'm in no way religious. I really dislike religion, actually.. but I can't simply get past this idea.


----------



## hufschmid

i love the number of views this thread has...


----------



## JBroll

Adam Of Angels said:


> Well, all other bullshit (and good) ideas aside, we know that energy can not be created or destroyed, only used/harnessed in some way. Your mind can not be destroyed, being in some way an energetic process, although the physical receptor (the brain) very well can be. I know that is a somewhat odd way of looking at it, but I'm in no way religious. I really dislike religion, actually.. but I can't simply get past this idea.



Or turned into matter...

Look, the energy and matter constructing the brain may not be destructible, but that doesn't mean it can't be reconfigured in a much less useful way.

Jeff


----------



## Adam Of Angels

The difference is, I'm assuming that there's some sort of conscious energy recieved by the brain, rather than the brain mysteriously producing what we know to be the human mind. The other difference is that I don't have a problem with whatever it is you believe.


----------



## JBroll

You can believe whatever you want, but that justification just didn't fit well - there are far too many other possible configurations of the same amount of matter and energy, that's all.

Jeff


----------



## Brendan G

Adam Of Angels said:


> The difference is, I'm assuming that there's some sort of conscious energy recieved by the brain, rather than the brain mysteriously producing what we know to be the human mind. The other difference is that I don't have a problem with whatever it is you believe.


Dualist bastid.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

Brendan G said:


> Dualist bastid.



Hahaha that smiley kicks ass


----------



## hairychris

Adam Of Angels said:


> The difference is, I'm assuming that there's some sort of conscious energy recieved by the brain, rather than the brain mysteriously producing what we know to be the human mind. The other difference is that I don't have a problem with whatever it is you believe.



OK, so where does this concious energy come from? You said in a previous post that you don't believe that energy can be created or destroyed*...

Are you trying to say that the energy required for conciousness is somehow different to the chemical energy that eating food provides?

We know more or less how the brain works (chemical and electrical triggers & receptors), that brain chemistry & construction has an affect on abstract things like mood, memory, personality (personality disorders because of physical problems with the brain)... and that abstractions like thoughts & moods can have an affect on the chemistry & construction of the hardware (you can train your memory, plus reactions to things like danger).

There's a heck of a lot of energy being used between our ears - thinking burns a lot of resources!

Anyway, if the energy that our brain consumes - and, as a product of this, our thoughts and personality and _soul_ - isn't from our food, where does it come from?? Computers don't work if you don't plug them in... 

To my thinking this is where the whole dualist view kind of fails. Where does this 'energy' come from? How does it interact with the natural universe? As more advanced animals obviously have what we call 'personalities' how do we classify them?

Too many questions, and that's without any reference to higher powers or deities. 

* JBroll is absolutely right in saying that you can convert matter to energy - nuclear energy is an example of this - although I'm personally not sure if the reverse is true, it may be. Actually, you can look at matter as essentially a potential for energy and nothing else.

FWIW energy at the quantum level appears to spontaneously appear & disappear, and because of this there are situations where supposedly the amount of energy in the universe may increase or decrease (particle/antiparticle creation at the event horizon of a black hole which catches one of the pair but not both), but this is all somewhat theoretical and way above my head!!


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

I just want to say that it wasn't my intention to drag this shit over into the Epic Phail Picture Thread, my picture was merely stating the fail that was someone trying to neg rep me, and it didn't count, hence the failure.


----------



## twiztedchild

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I just want to say that it wasn't my intention to drag this shit over into the Epic Phail Picture Thread, my picture was merely stating the fail that was someone trying to neg rep me, and it didn't count, hence the failure.



The only thing I can't figure out is WHY did that one get closed but this one is STILL open?


----------



## hairychris

twiztedchild said:


> The only thing I can't figure out is WHY did that one get closed but this one is STILL open?



Probably because this one's doing what it says on the label (well, it wandered then returned) whereas the pic thread kind of didn't...


----------



## twiztedchild

hairychris said:


> Probably because this one's doing what it says on the label (well, it wandered then returned) whereas the pic thread kind of didn't...



Maybe. but THIS one is really turning into nothing but neg reps. at least it was


----------



## Xiphos68

You either go to Heaven or Hell.
Thats what really happens.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Xiphos68 said:


> You either go to Heaven or Hell.
> Thats what really happens.


----------



## Xiphos68

That's truth you either believe in Jesus and dedicate your life to him or you don't and go to hell and burn eternity. No sugar coating whatsoever. Send me a message if you have any questions.


----------



## ZeroSignal

JJ Rodriguez said:


>



I dunno man. I wouldn't doubt him, he seems pretty certain about it.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

I don't have a problem with your beliefs, I have a problem with how your presenting them. Apparently, you missed the 10 pages of this thread where we already dealt with that.

You want to believe in Jesus? That's cool. You want to believe I'm going to hell? Sure, that's part of your belief. But at least try to present it in a more respectful manner.


----------



## Xiphos68

Sorry about that I wasn't trying to be mean but I get what your saying. I was trying to spread the truth about Jesus.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

That's cool and all, I mean, spreading your faith is part of it, I get that. It's just coming into a thread after 13 pages of (some ) intelligent discussion and just throwing "That's what really happens" after stating your belief, with absolutely no discussion about why you believe, or rather any personal thought or new information just kind of burns my ass


----------



## Xiphos68

Would you like me to tell you about it? I'm not going to bother about if you dont want me to.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> Sorry about that I wasn't trying to be mean but I get what your saying. I was trying to spread the truth about Jesus.



Dude, if you read most of this thread you'll find that the people you're imposing your beliefs on have weighed and measured the ideals from the bible and found them wanting. There's no point preaching to them because they've either been brought up Christian and found themselves questioning the existence of a god or higher being or have been otherwise exposed to it all their lives and still think that it's pointless. 

I have found no "truth" in the bible. Only superstition and fairy tales. 

EDIT:


JJ Rodriguez said:


> That's cool and all, I mean, spreading your faith is part of it, I get that. It's just coming into a thread after 13 pages of (some ) intelligent discussion and just throwing "That's what really happens" after stating your belief, with absolutely no discussion about why you believe, or rather any personal thought or new information just kind of burns my ass



This is basically it. We want to know what _and _why you believe this. Not just come in and state it like fact with no evidence to back it up.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

No, personally not interested in your faith itself, in fact if I believed in the Christian god I'd worship the devil probably  We already had the Christian discussion, and I'm pretty sure everyone is familiar with the Christian belief that good = heaven, bad = hell. Unless you have something new to add. I mean, feel free to post whatever, I'm not a mod, I'm just saying you're going to get your ass handed to you in a theological debate where all you say it "That's what really happens" 

But were there any life changing events that sparked your faith? Or were you just one of the many people raised that way. To me, it's interesting hearing about an experience that would be so life altering that you would start to believe in a deity. Being raised and taught that way is a lot more boring


----------



## Xiphos68

What evidence is there. Have you seen this earth. There obliviously had to be creator for it to happen. I dont understand why people dont want to feel the love of God.


----------



## ZeroSignal

JJ Rodriguez said:


> But were there any life changing events that sparked your faith? Or were you just one of the many people raised that way. To me, it's interesting hearing about an experience that would be so life altering that you would start to believe in a deity. Being raised and taught that way is a lot more boring



Yeah! 99% of the time it's the other way around.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> What evidence is there. Have you seen this earth. There obliviously had to be creator for it to happen. I dont understand why people dont want to feel the love of God.


----------



## Xiphos68

I was raised in a Christian home. Yes I was but me confessing to be one doesnt mean I wasnt acting like one. Im just know trying to make myself who I claim to be. Instead of some hypocrite. That one thing that get me is when people claim to believe but dont act like it. But Im just know starting to make myself who I need to be.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Xiphos68 said:


> That one thing that get me is when people claim to believe but dont act like it. But Im just know starting to make myself who I need to be.



Even better is when people who claim to NOT be one act like better Christians than people who claim to worship their god


----------



## Xiphos68

True that. But not everybody perfect we've all made mistakes. That probaly another reason why people dont believe. I think its all so the life change you make. Because some people dont want to change.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> True that. But not everybody perfect we've all made mistakes. That probaly another reason why people dont believe. I think its all so the life change you make. Because some people dont want to change.



Why don't you just be nice to people and do good things instead of doing that AND believing in the god? Why does the god factor have to relate to how good a person you are?


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

No, and that's the whole basis of your religion, which is cool if you feel bad for what you do or the way you are. Personally, I don't really have any guilt for what I do, because I think a lot like a LaVey Satanist. We're all animals and we will do what we will. I do what I want when I want, and because of that, I don't really regret doing a whole lot, since I must have wanted to do it at the time.

And because of this, I could NEVER be a Christian. I mean, it's not like I go out kill my neighbor while coveting his wife and stealing his posessions, in fact I don't do a whole lot that goes against the bible, besides speaking my mind which is generally against it. I'm just a fan of being able to do as I please. I don't want any restrictions. 

And yeah, I don't want to change because I see no reason to, my life is pretty decent.


----------



## Xiphos68

Well because following Jesus. He wants you to be like him. Jesus didn't do anything wrong he never sinned he was tempted but he didn't sin. I mean were hear to glorify God and spread his love. I love God personally which your always have to have God first in your life . He's loved me and giving blessings that I shouldn't have and the protection he giving me to. He dont want you to be like the world which is sin.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Not to start an argument but where is the proof for all this? And you haven't responded to any of my points.


----------



## Xiphos68

Ok first God dont have to prove himself. I mean take for example the video. How did that stuff get created.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

How did god get created?


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> Ok first God dont have to prove himself. I mean take for example the video. How did that stuff get created.



Yes he does. 

And how did _he_ get created?

EDIT: Dammit JJ!


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Fuck, this thread is going to get locked


----------



## Xiphos68

God has always been there. Besides what proof do you want?


----------



## ZeroSignal

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Fuck, this thread is going to get locked



No it isn't. We're debating what happens when you die and the existence of god is integral to everyone's arguments. 

I blame you. [action=]Runs...[/action]


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> God has always been there. Besides what proof do you want?



How do you know? How did he get _there_? Surely to have something as powerful and omnipresent as a god you'd need something even MORE powerful than he is to create him?

And empirical proof would be fine, thanks.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Xiphos68 said:


> God has always been there. Besides what proof do you want?



If your god can always just "be there" then why not the matter that the big bang came from?

And any deity that would condemn me to eternal torment for not worshiping him (which is pretty tyrannical) should give us proof, or come down and be like "Hey guys, let's go grab a beer".


----------



## Xiphos68

Im going to get a verse out of the bible. Scientists have been trying to prove the bible wrong for 2000 years thet still aint done it yet so let me get this verse.


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> Im going to get a verse out of the bible. Scientists have been trying to prove the bible wrong for 2000 years thet still aint done it yet so let me get this verse.



Wait, I'm a first year Arts student and I managed to do it!


----------



## Xiphos68

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the waters.

How did you prove the bible wrong?

How did you prove it wrong tell me what you proved wrong?


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Xiphos68 said:


> Im going to get a verse out of the bible. Scientists have been trying to prove the bible wrong for 2000 years thet still aint done it yet so let me get this verse.



Dude, you can't prove the bible with a verse from the bible. Think of this logic: "The bible is true because the bible says so". Read it. Read it again. I'm sure you can find fault with the logic of the statement.

And the only proof people have is when they die, and those guys aren't telling anyone


----------



## Xiphos68

Thats because there either burning or being with God in heaven.

Well were did the bible come from?


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> How did you prove the bible wrong?
> 
> How did you prove it wrong tell me what you proved wrong?



God is omniscient and omnipresent and is the creator of all things. But who created _him_? I mean, he has to have come from somewhere. It's not like he just willed himself into existence because that would require him to actually exist before he was even created.



Xiphos68 said:


> Well were did the bible come from?



Rulers trying to keep the populous in check by using superstition and fear. Either that or people high on the desert equivalent of mushrooms thinking that they're seeing burning bushes and angels.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Men wrote it. Even your religion doesn't dispute that fact. You believe it to be the word of god, I don't think it is. What is undeniably true, whether you think it is or not, is the fact it's a book written 2000 years ago by people with no education, and no knowledge of ANYTHING in this world. These people thought the world was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, than it's only 4000 years old at the time.


----------



## Xiphos68

He's always been here. Besides you cant question the bible?


----------



## ZeroSignal

Xiphos68 said:


> He's always been here. Besides you cant question the bible?



I just did.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

ZeroSignal said:


> People trying to keep the populous in check by using superstition and fear. Either that or people high on the desert equivalent of mushrooms thinking that they're seeing burning bushes and angels.



I don't think that was the original intent of the religion. It was probably meant as more of a moral guide line, etc. The problem is the people who implemented the religion and started to use it to control people.


----------



## ZeroSignal

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I don't think that was the original intent of the religion. It was probably meant as more of a moral guide line, etc. The problem is the people who implemented the religion and started to use it to control people.



Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. Then people started editing the bible wholesale. Like the removal of the gospel of Mary Magdalene.


----------



## Xiphos68

It never was in the sacred scriptures.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Who decided it was sacred? What were the guide lines? The process was controlled by man, and is therefor susceptible to man's weakness: greed.

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere really. Me and Ruarc are debating you on logical grounds, and asking questions that you're only responses are stuff you're taking from the bible. It doesn't sound like there's any personal thought in it, just "well, this is the way it is, because the bible says so".

I'm not trying to say don't worship your god, do what makes you happy. But your debating here is even worse than Flying_Bananas


----------



## Adam Of Angels

Xiphos68 said:


> It never was in the sacred scriptures.



Ever hear of the books from Nag Hamaddi? All texts dating to the same time as the Gospels found in the Bible. The church denounced these texts before they were even found! In the 1930's, a farmer and his brother found copies of them near Nag Hamaddi Egypt. Amongst others, these books include the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Jesus, the Gospel of James (the brother of Jesus), the Gospel of Thomas, etc.

Simply because you were raised to believe something doesn't mean that these texts aren't valid. What it means is, over the years, when people in power (both church and state) got together to decide what was appropriate to include in the 'holy texts', they left out the things that they felt were to be forbidden for one reason or another. The Bible should have been riddled with all sorts of information about reincarnation... but if you have reincarnation, you can't have the concept of hell.. and without the concept of hell, how can you control people with fear?

Like I said - just because you were raised to believe something doesn't mean that there isn't more to the story. I had to learn the hard (better) way myself, being raised a Catholic. Now I feel no need to belong to a secular group, because I don't believe in the ridiculous concept of hell. Nothing that anybody does is deserving of ETERNAL punishment. Do you realize that eternal punishment implies that you've done something infinitely bad? Given eternity, even the worst thing a human mind could conjure up could seem pretty mild.

Not telling you what to believe, just shedding some light.



Oh, and to the guys that were asking me to explain my idea of conscious energy... well, I suppose I don't have the energy to do that right now, haha, but I do have my shit pretty straight on it. I'd rather see how ^^this^^ one goes first.


----------



## Brendan G

Xiphos68 said:


> What evidence is there. Have you seen this earth. There obliviously had to be creator for it to happen. I don't understand why people don't want to feel the love of God.


I for one do not, I simply cannot accept the fact than an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all good being, created and allowed evil to happen (God had to have created _*everything*_ right? That includes Lucifer, whom many Christians blame for the origin of evil.) and if that were true, I will reject that being with all my will, even if that includes burning for all of eternity.

Almost everyone's response to that is "Well God doesn't mess with freewill." Well I (and I hope many others) believe vehemently that that is a bad promise, and many people break bad promises if they are made. 

I'll give you an example, let's say a friend told you "I am going to kill myself at 5 PM tonight at location X, you have to promise not to tell anyone." (Yes I know this situation is highly improbable, but just go with it.) and the guy seems quite serious, and for some reason you agree. As the time draws near, what do you do? I would imagine that close to no one would go through with their bad promise right? And if you do, you are a despicable human being.


----------



## El Caco

twiztedchild said:


> The only thing I can't figure out is WHY did that one get closed but this one is STILL open?



That one was closed because the discussion was continued after Eric posted the warning.



twiztedchild said:


> Maybe. but THIS one is really turning into nothing but neg reps. at least it was



The neg rep issue has been handled. Move on!

Anyone caught abusing the E-Rep system will be subject to the BanHammer.



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Fuck, this thread is going to get locked





The topic is *What do you believe happens when you die?* If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.


----------



## ZeroSignal

s7eve said:


> That one was closed because the discussion was continued after Eric posted the warning.
> 
> The topic is *What do you believe happens when you die?* If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.



 And for some reason he kinda wants this thread closed. I think it's serving a purpose and I for one enjoy reading and taking part in the discussions.

Personally I believe that the debate on existence or non-existence of god is very important to the entire debate. For without god or a higher power there would most likely not be an after life.


----------



## JBroll

Xiphos, you have clearly missed the gigantic stomping that took place last time one had so little thought put into stating his beliefs. Go ahead and read the rest of the thread to see what happens when you try to state your beliefs as fact with no proof whatsoever - and, even better, when you put horrible 'arguments' (like the argument from creation) forward to help your case. Your argument is invalid because either your god needed creation or your god didn't need creation - the first case implies the need for an infinite regression of increasingly powerful deities without actually explaining anything, and the second case only moves the burden of spontaneous existence from one thing to another. The thread can be interesting, just try actually *discussing* things instead of telling people they're going to hell.

Jeff


----------



## JBroll

hairychris said:


> OK, so where does this concious energy come from? You said in a previous post that you don't believe that energy can be created or destroyed*...
> 
> Are you trying to say that the energy required for conciousness is somehow different to the chemical energy that eating food provides?
> 
> We know more or less how the brain works (chemical and electrical triggers & receptors), that brain chemistry & construction has an affect on abstract things like mood, memory, personality (personality disorders because of physical problems with the brain)... and that abstractions like thoughts & moods can have an affect on the chemistry & construction of the hardware (you can train your memory, plus reactions to things like danger).
> 
> There's a heck of a lot of energy being used between our ears - thinking burns a lot of resources!
> 
> Anyway, if the energy that our brain consumes - and, as a product of this, our thoughts and personality and _soul_ - isn't from our food, where does it come from?? Computers don't work if you don't plug them in...
> 
> To my thinking this is where the whole dualist view kind of fails. Where does this 'energy' come from? How does it interact with the natural universe? As more advanced animals obviously have what we call 'personalities' how do we classify them?
> 
> Too many questions, and that's without any reference to higher powers or deities.
> 
> * JBroll is absolutely right in saying that you can convert matter to energy - nuclear energy is an example of this - although I'm personally not sure if the reverse is true, it may be. Actually, you can look at matter as essentially a potential for energy and nothing else.
> 
> FWIW energy at the quantum level appears to spontaneously appear & disappear, and because of this there are situations where supposedly the amount of energy in the universe may increase or decrease (particle/antiparticle creation at the event horizon of a black hole which catches one of the pair but not both), but this is all somewhat theoretical and way above my head!!



Energy can be turned into matter - some of the energy from a nuclear explosion turns back into mass.

Quantum fluctuations are themselves interesting, and Hawking radiation (which you just described) isn't unresolved the way you've stated it because black holes have mass themselves. It's just a sort of virtual 'emission' that could let them 'release' energy.

Jeff


----------



## ZeroSignal

JBroll said:


> Energy can be turned into matter - some of the energy from a nuclear explosion turns back into mass.



H + O2 = Flame and death --> Water.


----------



## El Caco

ZeroSignal said:


> And for some reason he kinda wants this thread closed. I think it's serving a purpose and I for one enjoy reading and taking part in the discussions.
> 
> Personally I believe that the debate on existence or non-existence of god is very important to the entire debate. For without god or a higher power there would most likely not be an after life.



That is the problem IMO, who said it has to be a debate. Why is it that people feel the need to challenge other peoples beliefs? I understand it goes both ways and has in this thread, look where that got us. Possibly the problem is the word "believe" in the title, it invokes the "why would you believe that" response.

The fact is none of us knows what will happen after we die, if we are not certain our selves why do we feel the need to challenge someone else's belief?

IMO the debate aspect of this thread has made the thread unfriendly and the fear of scorn can prevent some from contributing to the thread. If someone were to say "how can we know because how do we know that we were not created 5 minutes ago and our memories were implanted so that we believe we have been here for much longer?" they shouldn't fear scorn or negative feedback for sharing their beliefs or ideas. Even if you wanted to test that belief, there is a way to debate it without belittling the person. If you want someone to consider your opinion, insulting them and ridiculing their belief is not the way to go about it and personally I would question why I should consider something from someone who is not able to master constructive communication techniques. Again, this goes both ways.

I do not have a belief in what happens after we die, I have a lot of ideas about the possibilities. My favourite scenario is I check my stats, talk shit then play again.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

People are intensely prone to various forms of insecurity. When somebody believes something that counters their logic (which is limited to mainstream scientific acceptance in the case of most athiests), they feel that they must protect their own security by cutting away at that belief. Its a simple psychological concept.

On the other hand, I don't mind. Our brains aren't capable of containing the greatness that is the inner-workings of the universe. We're still evolving


----------



## ZeroSignal

I agree with you Steve, but when someone posts something that is challenging someone else's beliefs then I think that that changes things slightly. Case in point:



Xiphos68 said:


> That's truth you either believe in Jesus and dedicate your life to him or you don't and go to hell and burn eternity. No sugar coating whatsoever. Send me a message if you have any questions.


----------



## JBroll

Adam Of Angels said:


> People are intensely prone to various forms of insecurity. When somebody believes something that counters their logic (which is limited to mainstream scientific acceptance in the case of most athiests), they feel that they must protect their own security by cutting away at that belief. Its a simple psychological concept.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't mind. Our brains aren't capable of containing the greatness that is the inner-workings of the universe. We're still evolving



(1) Logic doesn't involve taking science on faith, and 'most atheists' do nothing of the sort.
(2) 'Cutting away at beliefs' over the last few pages has come as a result of posts that qualify as borderline trolling - believe it or not, 'most atheists' would still fight for anyone's right to believe anything, as forcing beliefs of any kind is wrong.
(3) There's a difference between 'not capable' and 'not capable *yet*', and claiming that we can't know something takes far more knowledge than the same claim would allow.

Jeff


----------



## bulletbass man

Xiphos68 said:


> True that. But not everybody perfect we've all made mistakes. That probaly another reason why people dont believe. I think its all so the life change you make. Because some people dont want to change.


 
So god's predetermined path of your existance puts you in charge of your life? Also please take into the consideration how often those people try to change. I've known several drug addicts one of which turned to his church for help and recieved a swift kick out the door because he was a sinner. So while god may not turn anyone away the christians do. My largest problem with relegion. This goes for all religions. I myself struggle with anger issues. I always try to remain as positive as I can. But it rarely takes long before either the down right evilness that mankind dishes out of greed or intolerance is utterly infuriating. Why must your god be the same as my god. can we not worship the same god in different ways? Man has corrupted any real possible connection with this so called god. Whom simply sits there with an empty promise of saving us all in the afterlife. 



Xiphos68 said:


> Well because following Jesus. He wants you to be like him. Jesus didn't do anything wrong he never sinned he was tempted but he didn't sin. I mean were hear to glorify God and spread his love. I love God personally which your always have to have God first in your life . He's loved me and giving blessings that I shouldn't have and the protection he giving me to. He dont want you to be like the world which is sin.



Well the trinity says that god is really the father, the son, and the holy spirit. There was no jesus only god in a different form. He may not want you in this world of sin but I have yet to find anything he does about it. How many slaughters have resulted directly due to religion?



Xiphos68 said:


> Ok first God dont have to prove himself. I mean take for example the video. How did that stuff get created.


So the miracles of Jesus or God through out the bible are not stories told to prove god. Or can I write an abridged version which says the 10 commandments, love one another, and spread this sentence and it shall be as holy as the bible?



Xiphos68 said:


> Thats because there either burning or being with God in heaven.
> 
> Well were did the bible come from?


 
Yeah how many people can tell you about the afterlife personally?

I'm sorry to be such a dick. I usually stay in the middle of the road. I once was a christian by the way. have spent years debating god's existance. And one day completely crashed.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

JBroll said:


> (1) Logic doesn't involve taking science on faith, and 'most atheists' do nothing of the sort.
> (2) 'Cutting away at beliefs' over the last few pages has come as a result of posts that qualify as borderline trolling - believe it or not, 'most atheists' would still fight for anyone's right to believe anything, as forcing beliefs of any kind is wrong.
> (3) There's a difference between 'not capable' and 'not capable *yet*', and claiming that we can't know something takes far more knowledge than the same claim would allow.
> 
> Jeff



Stop trying to put me down, man. You're not really doing as good of a job as you think you are.

(1) Your logic, in general, is the way you think. Its the path that your thoughts take, in general. What I was saying, was that when somebody else's belief contradicts that of yours ("you" being the person in question), insecurity will have it that an argument based around self-justification will come about.
(2) Nobody will find out you're an athiest if you don't tell them. If you tell them, you're more than likely in the process of defending yourself in some way - not in all cases, but most cases. The exception would usually be a light hearted debate. When I used the term "most athiests", I was pointing out that "most athiests" rely on what is accepted in mainstream science to be fact. I didn't say that most athiests are the defensive people in question.
(3) Did I say that our brains will never be capable of understanding? I said that they are not capable of understanding... which implies the present moment. My point and your point are exactly the same, my friend. Thank you, though.


----------



## JBroll

I'm actually not trying to put you down, believe it or not. You'll know if I do.

(1) This doesn't have to do with insecurity as much as wanting everything to be well-justified - if some Charismatic Ultra-Fundagelical Sunni Neopagan Theravadan Subgenius can bring something to the table, great... the problem I had was with your stereotyping.

(2) I haven't found this to be true at all, myself - there doesn't have to be a debate or witch trial going on for someone to ask me what I believe in... and there usually isn't.

(3) I didn't say that you said that. 

(Oh look, this isn't an argument!
Yes it is.
No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
No it isn't.
It is!
It is not.
Look, you just contradicted me.
I did not!)

Jeff


----------



## Adam Of Angels

I dunno, I don't really think there's any substance to our debate. I'm willing to end it, because I'm not really into it. Could be the Christmas wine talking (and yes, Christmas wine is different, because combined with loud family members, an instant hangover is induced)


----------



## JBroll

I don't think we're really debating.

(I came here for a good argument!
No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
An argument isn't just contradiction.
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!)

That's one nice thing about being out of the whole religion thing... family doesn't expect you to be up at the asscrack of dawn opening ugly boxes and pretending that the fruitcake doesn't taste like death. April Fools' Day presents are amusing, but apparently I shouldn't give away so many things that explode without warning.

Jeff


----------



## Adam Of Angels

Haha - yeah, it took many years for my family to stop ridiculing me over not going to church on the holidays. This year will mark the first that I recieved no grief. But shit - this is a materialistic holiday for the most part, which I don't dig either, but the religious part hardly seems to matter. I know that if I were a demigod of some sort, I wouldn't want lesser beings worshipping me, let alone making petty holidays over my birth.


----------



## JBroll

Try worshiping yourself sometime - confuses the religious, makes holidays fun, you get to play 'inflate the ego' whenever you want, and - best of all - even a god worships you!

Even before I left Christianity I couldn't stand all of the commercialization of holidays in general, and now it looks to me like just another instance of religious leanings being used to manipulate people. Oh well, the music stops soon enough...

Jeff


----------



## Adam Of Angels

JBroll said:


> Oh well, the music stops soon enough...



..and that's all the fucking matters right now. If I have to hear one more song about something as stupid as a fucking snowman, I'll shoot myself.


----------



## twiztedchild

s7eve said:


> That one was closed because the discussion was continued after Eric posted the warning.
> 
> 
> 
> The neg rep issue has been handled. Move on!
> 
> Anyone caught abusing the E-Rep system will be subject to the BanHammer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The topic is *What do you believe happens when you die?* If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.



Well thats good  and about the warning thing I didn't know that sorry 





ZeroSignal said:


> And for some reason he kinda wants this thread closed. I think it's serving a purpose and I for one enjoy reading and taking part in the discussions.
> 
> Personally I believe that the debate on existence or non-existence of god is very important to the entire debate. For without god or a higher power there would most likely not be an after life.



Actually I said that IF you guys where going to argue over if god existed or not it should be closed, I basically said this EXACT thing right here:


s7eve said:


> The topic is *What do you believe happens when you die?* If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.



So, Just thought I would clear that up


----------



## Nick

once again, neg repped by some pussy who couldnt man up and put his/her name to it.

when someone makes a statment like 'when something bad happens you need to be able to look past it' they need to apply that to when something BAD happens. Otherwise they are just talking shit.



Xiphos68 said:


> Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the waters.
> 
> How did you prove the bible wrong?
> 
> How did you prove it wrong tell me what you proved wrong?



haha Richard Dawkins would spontaniously combust if he had to talk to you for 5 minutes.


----------



## El Caco

Nick, I will repeat the rep abuser has been taken care of and anyone caught abusing e-rep in future will be subject to the BanHammer.

If you post that in here there is a chance that a mod will miss it, in future please report e-rep abuse to a Mod.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

s7eve said:


> BanHammer



BLEEEEEHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! 

Anyone think we should start a Viking/Black Metal SS.org E-band by this name?


----------



## Nick

s7eve said:


> Nick, I will repeat the rep abuser has been taken care of and anyone caught abusing e-rep in future will be subject to the BanHammer.
> 
> If you post that in here there is a chance that a mod will miss it, in future please report e-rep abuse to a Mod.



thanks

You know im not worried if people want to neg rep me if they are easily offended but at least have the balls to admit it.


----------



## bulletbass man

Adam Of Angels said:


> Stop trying to put me down, man. You're not really doing as good of a job as you think you are.
> 
> (1) Your logic, in general, is the way you think. Its the path that your thoughts take, in general. What I was saying, was that when somebody else's belief contradicts that of yours ("you" being the person in question), insecurity will have it that an argument based around self-justification will come about.


 
Logicical thinking is not the way you think. Logical thinking is simply assessing the situation before you and coming to the conclusion which makes the most sense based on what's before you and what you've seen/experienced in the real world. Idealogical thinking is taking a concept and applying it to every moment in your life. It is simply following a life based on views from strictly idealistic (hence idealogy) views. 
A logical man says your views conflicts with mine. However in no way effect me so I'll share my views but really not give a damn. An idealogical driven person says your views aren't mine but they should be. Seriously you don't see too many atheists strapping a bomb to thier chest and killing those around them in a suicidal attempt. But you see an infinite number of situations in which religion has been the cause of war, murders, excommunications, etc. 

But to be on topic when I die I'll likely be dead. I'll henceforth be cremated. Then my only existance will be my accomplishments in a proffesionial sense and my impact on the world in a personal one.


----------



## El Caco

There are pro's and con's to seeing who left you rep, the latest e-rep abuse highlights both. You might be mature enough not to retaliate, unfortunately not everyone is and there are people who will neg everyone that negs them or in the latest case negs someone for their lifestyle and beliefs.

Of course the argument can be made that they wouldn't leave a neg if people could see who was leaving it but if everyone could see who left them rep and a neg war started it would be very difficult to moderate.

I personally like it off and decide on a case by case basis if I will sign it, sometimes you can predict how certain people will react and it can be better not to let them know.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

bulletbass man said:


> Logicical thinking is not the way you think. Logical thinking is simply assessing the situation before you and coming to the conclusion which makes the most sense based on what's before you and what you've seen/experienced in the real world. Idealogical thinking is taking a concept and applying it to every moment in your life. It is simply following a life based on views from strictly idealistic (hence idealogy) views.
> A logical man says your views conflicts with mine. However in no way effect me so I'll share my views but really not give a damn. An idealogical driven person says your views aren't mine but they should be. Seriously you don't see too many atheists strapping a bomb to thier chest and killing those around them in a suicidal attempt. But you see an infinite number of situations in which religion has been the cause of war, murders, excommunications, etc.
> 
> But to be on topic when I die I'll likely be dead. I'll henceforth be cremated. Then my only existance will be my accomplishments in a proffesionial sense and my impact on the world in a personal one.



My head sort of hurts when I try to think what I meant by that, to be honest with you ... I was a tad drunk last night, to tell the truth. Either way, yes, what you're saying is definitely true, and I'd put it that way if I were making the same point right now.


----------



## Daemoniac

Xiphos68 said:


> Well because following Jesus. He wants you to be like him. Jesus didn't do anything wrong *he never sinned he was tempted but he didn't sin*. I mean were hear to glorify God and spread his love. I love God personally which your always have to have God first in your life . He's loved me and giving blessings that I shouldn't have and the protection he giving me to. He dont want you to be like the world which is sin.



Pretty sure Jesus sinned, unless you count black magic as ok... last time i checked, _raising the dead_ was black magic... God didnt invent sin either. He cast Lucifer from the heavens and Lucifer created sin. God wanted us to have freedom of choice, which is why he gave us _free will_, and why he kicked out the fallen for not giving up theirs... the first sin, Pride, kept them from returning that free will.

Also, the grammar in that is simply horrific...



Xiphos68 said:


> Ok first God dont have to prove himself. I mean take for example the video. How did that stuff get created.



Technically, no. God does not have to prove himself _if you believe in him_. Which most of the people in this thread dont, and to them, one of the reasons they _dont_ believe, is that he cannot be proven, and the Gospels _dis_proven all to easily given mans nature of warping words to his own purposes.



Xiphos68 said:


> God has always been there. Besides what proof do you want?



Proof that he _has_ always been there. It is impossible to _know_, because no-one was there, and honestly its just kind of silly.



Xiphos68 said:


> Im going to get a verse out of the bible. Scientists have been trying to prove the bible wrong for 2000 years thet still aint done it yet so let me get this verse.



Scientists havent been trying to disprove the bible for 2000 years, the bible wasnt written in the year 0, JESUS WAS BORN. It wasnt until the year 30 or so that he could have done _anything_. Besides, unless you take basic advancement as an attempt to 'disprove' the bible, its just ignorant to even claim that.



Xiphos68 said:


> Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the waters.



If the heavens werent there, there was nothing for God to have come from. If you validate a concept like God coming from nothing to create the universe, then automatically the concept of the Big Bang is equally valid, as it too is the concept of something being created from nothing.



> How did you prove the bible wrong?


Personally, by reading it.



> How did you prove it wrong tell me what you proved wrong?


None of it. Because it cannot be proven, it is automatically proven wrong, or as some people refer to is, as "myth", just like the Greek gods, or the Eqyptian gods. What makes them any less real than the bible in your mind?



Xiphos68 said:


> Thats because there either burning or being with God in heaven.
> 
> Well were did the bible come from?



Or they're just dead. I dont believe in God, therefore why the hell would i believe in hell to begin with? 

Someone on here said that *"If you stand in the middle of the road, with a speeding bus coming towards you, no matter how much you dont believe that bus is ther, it doesnt mean its not real"* to show one way of looking at religion. I turned it around: *"If you stand in the middle of a road, and see a bus coming towards you and no-one else can see it, no matter how much you believe it is there, it doesnt mean its real"*

You dont _have_ to believe in anything, and just because _you_ believe that Christianity is the only true religion and that everyone else is a heretic that will burn, doesnt mean that other people see it the same way.

Life is subjective. Near everything you see and you do is until you are faced with proof (or at least enough proof to convince you personally) that something is _fact _(like for most people, Maths is basic fact, and you are shown how it works, and from then on you accept it as a fact). You obviously believe completely in the bible. Fine. We do not. Nor do we believe we will burn in hell for not believing. Accept that, its not going to change any time soon.



Xiphos68 said:


> He's always been here. Besides you cant question the bible?



As you can probably see, we already have. Repeatedly. And in our minds, won every single time. To you, clearly not, again, thats fine. Leave us be in our own beliefs.



Adam Of Angels said:


> this is a materialistic holiday for the most part, which I don't dig either, but the religious part hardly seems to matter. I know that if I were a demigod of some sort, I wouldn't want lesser beings worshipping me, let alone making petty holidays over my birth.



I disagree, but im in Australia. To me, Christmas is (when done properly) about making people happy and seeing family. Its about seeing the looks of joy on everyones faces when everyone is supposed to be together for that one day. Maybe hats not generally the case though.


----------



## Metal Ken

Demoniac said:


> It wasnt until the year 30 or so that he could have done _anything_.



Most gospels and letters compiled in the bible werent generally written until at earliest, 30-60 years after jesus supposedly walked the earth. Furthermore, the bible in its current state (For protestants) wasnt established until the protestant reformation, which is a split from the catholic and orthodox bibles which were compiled around the 4th century CE.

Edit: Holy shit, im tired, i just totally misread your post and assumed you were talking about the written bible, not the work of christ


----------



## Daemoniac

Haha, thats ok man  Thats exactly what i meant though; he couldnt have _done_ anything until at least year 30, so the bible could not have been written until many MANY years later.


----------



## TheAceOfSpades1

I've read through every page in this thread over the past couple of weeks and I gotta say this is one of the best threads I've ever read. Keep it up!


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## Daemoniac

Will do 

Im pretty sure technically Jesus was supposedly born around 5BH (before himself) anyway, or thats the closest guess. Either way though, the bible could not have been written for at least 30-40 years, and chances are it wasnt written until all his disciples were dead themselves, and word of mouth was no longer an option of continuing his legacy.

Another thing that just came to mind as well, people seem to recognise Jesus as some sort of godly being, and its annoying me. Jesus was a man. Just a man. Which is why, like man, he was rewarded with _eternal life in heaven when he died_...

It was a reward to him from God (who happened to be his father) for not abandoning his faith. I guess that because he was 'gods son' though, he had a better chance of sticking to it than the average person.


----------



## El Caco

Xiphos68 said:


> Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the waters.
> 
> How did you prove the bible wrong?
> 
> How did you prove it wrong tell me what you proved wrong?



Let's start with a basic one,

Luke 22:34 (New King James Version)

34 Then He said, I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.

Mark 14:66-72 (New King James Version)

Peter Denies Jesus, and Weeps

66 Now as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came. 67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, You also were with Jesus of Nazareth. 
68 But he denied it, saying, I neither know nor understand what you are saying. And he went out on the porch, and a rooster crowed. 
69 And the servant girl saw him again, and began to say to those who stood by, This is one of them. 70 But he denied it again. 
And a little later those who stood by said to Peter again, Surely you are one of them; for you are a Galilean, and your speech shows it.[a]
71 Then he began to curse and swear, I do not know this Man of whom you speak! 
72 A second time the rooster crowed. Then Peter called to mind the word that Jesus had said to him, Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times. And when he thought about it, he wept.


Which one is right? They both can not be correct and therefore one is wrong. The bible contains errors and contradictions, how do you know what passages they got right and what ones they got wrong? If people are willing to give up their life because fallible men (with evidence in the very same books that they get things wrong) tell them to, good luck to them. I am not willing to give up another minute of my life based on the words of men and books when they contain information that is not true and there is no way of knowing what other parts are true or not true. 

The infallible book is apparently not infallible, I'm going to need something more than the tall tales of some men before I give up my life.

I have more, you should check out some of the posts I have made on this in the past. However no one has answered this for me yet so there is no reason to go any further than that now.


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## Daemoniac

I agree for the most part.

BUT (yeah, theres a but ) i dont believe religion or faith _should_ be about proof. To me, it signifies a set of morals that you agree with more than others, or a set of beliefs that draw you to it in particular.

The contradictions i dont believe should make too much difference to those who follow the religion, as long as they are taking it as 'faith' not 'absolute truth and fact'. Its not fact until you prove it, and its not _going_ to be fact, nor, i believe, _should_ it be.


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## Daemoniac

Saw this and had to post it


----------



## El Caco

^

The contradictions prove a point, that these are the tales of men written after the fact for a specific point. At this point we are talking about the Gospels which tell the story of the life of Jesus, at this point we don't even have Christianity or Christians, we have a group of Jews that are later called Nazarenes and a Prophet who taught repentance, salvation and taught against corruption. If you want to take a message from these books, fine, but at this point it is a Jewish message as the Christian church does not exist.

The problem is the claim that these books are part of one infallible book (the only Christian Church I know that does not claim the Bible is infallible is the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints), obviously that is not the case.

The problem is how do you know what parts to take as Gospel and what parts to dismiss as the words of men?

The problem is many Christians claim things as fact and use the Bible as their supporting evidence and then ask you to prove it wrong. What I have shown is that the Bible can not be used as a credible witness to verify fact as it contains faults and there is no way to know when it is right and when it is wrong. If a witness in court gives two different accounts of the same story, that witness can no longer be considered credible, if we cannot accept this for earthly matters how can we accept this for spiritual matters?

The Bible contains errors, this isn't the only example. When you consider the errors along with the history of how we got the Bible and the history of the Jewish followers of Jesus, you can begin to see that modern Christianity is flawed. If there was a Christian Church that acknowledged the faults of the Bible and claimed that the written word is the collection of accounts of men so that we may know that salvation is found in Jesus and nothing else, if they went on to say that the Bible is not to be used for doctrine as Christians are promised the gift of the Holy spirit who will teach all things, well my argument here wouldn't matter but I am not aware of a Church that believes this.

I don't have the answers and I am a seeker of truth so I accept peoples right to believe whatever they will, what I consider unacceptable is other people talking down to me if I do not believe what they do or claiming as fact things without any supporting evidence. If someone is going to throw around threats of eternal damnation they should be able to back it up however if someone is willing to state what they believe and admit that it is a matter of faith, I am willing to accept that and I am open minded enough to investigate it and discuss it with them.


----------



## Daemoniac

Thats a good point right there.

For me, im all for advocating the message behind the Bible, what i seemed to be forgetting is that without a focal point _for_ the message (ie: the church), there isnt 'one' message, because everyone reads their own point.

Unless, like you are saying, people take the bible word for word as holy gospel, which, yeah, leads to ridiculous counter-arguments and self-destructive hypocrisy...

In short, agreed. I think if it wasnt pushed on people so much as word-for-word truth, it would be a much better religion/book...


----------



## Rick

I'm going to a place where I will have any Agile 7 I want and 4 6505+ to play through 8 Vader 4x12s.


----------



## El Caco

But Agile? Really? You could have anything and that's all you hope for? OK


----------



## Brendan G

s7eve said:


> But Agile? Really? You could have anything and that's all you hope for? OK


He said any, so that could include custom.


----------



## Rick

s7eve said:


> But Agile? Really? You could have anything and that's all you hope for? OK



Fine, Steve, just ruin my dreams. 

Ok, 4 Ibanez LACSs to my liking.


----------



## El Caco

Add Mopars, Booze and Hot Women and I'm there


----------



## FlyingBanana

Isn't it time someone else get banned for shoving neg rep down my throat. This is retarded already. How long since I even posted in here...?


----------



## JBroll

Why are you under the impression that rep is important?

Jeff


----------



## El Caco

FlyingBanana said:


> Isn't it time someone else get banned for shoving neg rep down my throat. This is retarded already. How long since I even posted in here...?



What are you on about? I checked your profile and you have received no rep for this thread recently, today you have received 1 positive and another two reps that do not count from a new member all for another thread.

So why are you posting in here trying to stir people up? Or are you looking for neg rep?


----------



## FlyingBanana

s7eve said:


> What are you on about? I checked your profile and you have received no rep for this thread recently, today you have received 1 positive and another two reps that do not count from a new member all for another thread.
> 
> So why are you posting in here trying to stir people up? Or are you looking for neg rep?


 
Oops...my bad.

I'm sorry about that. It was for the fuck prop 8 thread. 

...and no, I wasn't trying to stir anything up. Had a long day today with work and was a little tired when I saw that and went all......

I'm cool now. 



quote JBroll 


> Why are you under the impression that rep is important?
> 
> Jeff


 
I'm not...I just don't like the red boxes. I like green ones.


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## El Caco

Well so far you have got no new red ones but keep going on about rep and I'm sure someone will be happy to assist you.


----------



## vampiregenocide

If we're going to shove any beliefs down anyones throat...








Seriously, neg repping people or slagging off people w/e because they don't believe in teh same thing as you is futile. I respect anyones opinions providing they don't force them on me. 

Back on topic, I believe in reincarnation as much as science, so I think we come back as something else  

I want to be a shark.


----------



## porkchop

vampiregenocide said:


> If we're going to shove any beliefs down anyones throat...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, neg repping people or slagging off people w/e because they don't believe in teh same thing as you is futile. I respect anyones opinions providing they don't force them on me.
> 
> Back on topic, I believe in reincarnation as much as science, so I think we come back as something else
> 
> I want to be a shark.



I wanna be a pair of white cotton panties. I don't mean reincarnated. I mean NOW!


----------



## estabon37

I wanna be sedated. Where's my bourbon?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Found it. Thanks to this thread I've decided to control what happens when I die. Being that I don't care for the spiritual side of things, I can only control what happens on the literal side of things.

I want my eyes placed in a jar and displayed in the centre of town. For no reason. The rest of me should be burned to ash and snorted by Keith Richards.


----------



## hairychris

porkchop said:


> I wanna be a pair of white cotton panties. I don't mean reincarnated. I mean NOW!



+498367836459745 but only if they get worn by Milla Jovovich.


----------



## CatPancakes

I was raised extremely christian, my dad was a theology major, and both my parents are sunday school teachers and up untili was 14 i fully beleived it, but then i started to question, i asked my father about it, i talked to my mom about it. Through my life 12-now ive been doing mission work for my parents church, going into teh ghetto and having a vaction bible school for the kids there, its truley their favorite thing ever, they tell us about how they look forward to it all year. But other members of the group were quite condescending even when i went to church every week, older members saying i was a bad person because i listened to metal and had long hair. even after i renounced my religion i still participate in mission work, despite someone even haveing the nerve to tell me to leave because i wasnt christian.
THIS is why i hate religion, it gives somepeople an undeserved feeling of superiority. even people that didnt do shit, that just sat their fat ass in church everysunday said they were better people than me, because i dindt beleive, never fucking mind that i walked though the ghetto, playing basketball with these kids, and made a difference in their lives, never mind that on occasion there i would hear gunshots, we had parents come to pick up their children bugging out on drugs, and we ARE NOT allowed to let them take their child home in that state, you trying telling some guy on coke that he cant take his child home and has to call a relative . we had some parents not come to pick up their children. guess what? guess who walked them home?
Never think your a better person tahn me, because you beleive something i dont.

oh and on topic, i belive taht we finally find peace when we die, though not in a heaven sense, just peace, nothing else


----------



## distressed_romeo

OK, a little late to the party, but now things have cooled down I may as well post up...

Regarding the 'science vs. religion' debate which has crept in a few times, I've never seen any reason why science and spirituality (deliberate choice of words, as I'm not going to get into organised religion here) can't co-exist. Both are on-going, evolving processes in helping us to unravel the universe, and so it's a little arrogant to assume our present level of understanding of one or the other has all the answers. For instance, just a couple of centuries ago, it was considered good science to use the bumps on people's head to judge their characters, and by the same token philosphical thought is far more advanced these days just because we now have the freedom (not everywhere unfortunately) to question and examine beliefs rather than treating them as dogma.
Someone earlier (JBroll I think) said that if we accept God as creator of the universe then we have to keep going further back and accept another force that created him, and so forth. I'd agree, and I'd say that the goal of both science and spirituality is to keep examining those levels. I doubt it's possible to reach an absolute origin point, but that's probably opening a thesis-worth of questions about how we choose to live our lives...

Regarding myself, I was raised in a pretty religion-free household (my mother's a confirmed atheist. Not sure about my father.). Any time I was taken to church it was a social affair (for the airforce functions my father was expected to attend etc.) rather than a religious one. Nonetheless, my brother and I were left relatively free to explore whatever we wanted. During my teenage years I self-identified as a LaVeyan Satanist for a while, but ended up rejecting labels altogether, as I ended up coming to the conclusion that my sprituality was a personal thing, and not worth labelling for the benefit of others (it's still not something I discuss a great deal, even with my closest friends). I studied other aspects of the occult (Chaos Magic in particular) on and off for years now, and read up on philosophy from time to time, although it's been a while since I did any substantial research on either unfortunately.

Regarding the original question, in light of all I've just said, I'm pretty loathe to say anything for sure given my current level of knowledge. At the moment I'm fairly content to continue forging onward, and hope that eventually there's some sort of explanation, in this life or another (and even that I'm still undecided on!).

So, in conclusion, I'm happy to throw my hands in the air and say 'I don't know!'...

[Rant over. We now resume your usual progamming.]


----------



## JBroll

The problem I have with the religion-versus-science thing is that science finds the answers that are worth having. Science, unlike the dominant religions, makes no claim to having all of the answers, and would rather have no answer than a bad answer, which I consider to be its strength - basically, if an answer is worth believing in, science will back it up sooner or later.

Jeff


----------



## distressed_romeo

JBroll said:


> The problem I have with the religion-versus-science thing is that science finds the answers that are worth having. Science, unlike the dominant religions, makes no claim to having all of the answers, and would rather have no answer than a bad answer, which I consider to be its strength - basically, if an answer is worth believing in, science will back it up sooner or later.
> 
> Jeff



That's basically why I made the distinction between religion and spirituality.


----------



## JBroll

What's spirituality, then? I don't differentiate between them because I see similar processes in each of them, and tend to group things in terms of 'science' and 'not science'.

Jeff


----------



## distressed_romeo

JBroll said:


> What's spirituality, then? I don't differentiate between them because I see similar processes in each of them, and tend to group things in terms of 'science' and 'not science'.
> 
> Jeff



I don't know if a philospher/theologian/whatever would agree here, but I tend to define spirituality as...

a) Ideas rather than firmly held beliefs or dogma. Like I said, an evolving process.
b) A private internal affair rather than something you're taught.

With that in mind, science really ought to enrich it, not limit it.


----------



## JBroll

That's much better than most definitions we'd come across, but still very broad - and the majority of science isn't taught, in a good education system... that definition would include any mathematical or scientific research where the researcher has anything remotely resembling a guess as to what will happen. This may be why you don't see the spirituality and science thing - they're not very distinct with that definition.

Jeff


----------



## distressed_romeo

JBroll said:


> That's much better than most definitions we'd come across, but still very broad - and the majority of science isn't taught, in a good education system... that definition would include any mathematical or scientific research where the researcher has anything remotely resembling a guess as to what will happen. This may be why you don't see the spirituality and science thing - they're not very distinct with that definition.
> 
> Jeff



Sorry, just to be more specific, as I was actually comparing spirituality to organised religion rather than science there, here's how I'd probably seperate the other two...

Spiritual question: 'Am I actually dreaming my whole life?'

Scientific question: 'What's 2 +2?'

The scientific one is quantifiable and proveable, whereas the spiritual one (and I know it's a pretty cliched example) isn't really, as even if you offered me concrete proof one way or the other, you might not exist anyway and the proof itself would be part of what I was dreaming (wierd logic I know, but that's what I'm getting at).
Science gives us the framework, spirituality helps cope with the abstracts if you see what I mean.

Hope that clears up what I meant a bit.

DISCLAIMER: I don't claim to be any sort of scientist, or a schooled philosopher for that matter...


----------



## JBroll

Gotcha... well, in that case, science and spirituality don't even intersect, so they really can't fight... but for more common definitions of spirituality or religion they intersect far too often, so others have different issues entirely.

Jeff


----------



## distressed_romeo

JBroll said:


> Gotcha... well, in that case, science and spirituality don't even intersect, so they really can't fight... but for more common definitions of spirituality or religion they intersect far too often, so others have different issues entirely.
> 
> Jeff



Got it in one. That's why I have trouble taking the debate seriously a lot of the time. It often ends up taking a pretty short-sighted view of both.


----------



## hairychris

I like your thinking, DR.

Spirituality, as I see it, is the search to find one's place in the universe. Religious, non-religious, atheist and theist can all fall into this.

The issue with religion (as opposed to simple theism) is that it wishes to marshall the spirituality of it's followers. Exactly the same problem happens with certain non-theistic regimes, read Nazism and Stalinist style communism for example, where a certain material goal is equated with a spiritual 'quest'. I won't be the first to say that these systems can be called religious in form, but the search is for a supposed paradise in this universe as opposed to paradise in the next.

By this count I actually have less of a disagreement with non-religious theists then I do with atheistic communists or fascists! for me the control that's exerted by the system is more dangerous then a specific supernatural belief.

In the context of this discussion (after death is... what?) I will agree with the dangerous Stalinist & disagree with the friendly spiritual theist.

I love muddying the waters!


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## Daemoniac

^ Right there, i think that was what was wrong with my earlier posts with you Chris, i tend to look at religion in general as 'spirituality', even though i am vehemently opposed to blind faith towards anything...


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## hairychris

Demoniac said:


> ^ Right there, i think that was what was wrong with my earlier posts with you Chris, i tend to look at religion in general as 'spirituality', even though i am vehemently opposed to blind faith towards anything...



Haha, funnily enough I tend to see that the Abrahamic religions are diametrically opposite to personal spirituality and tend to argue from that position. Admittedly I also tend to find supernatural spirituality a little nonsensical, but a _personal_ search for truth is something that I won't knock. Dogma, on the other hand... 

I don't think that we actually disagreed on much apart from definitions. To be honest, in these discussions definitons need to be really quite clear because you cannot defend a position that you cannot define.

What I've generally found is that skeptics are far better at defining a position then believers. I believe that this is because they have actually questioned their views far more closely then those who believe tend to have been in that atmosphere - surrounded by those with identical beliefs - since childhood.

All discussion is good!


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## JBroll

In addition, skeptics are typically less partial.

Jeff


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## hairychris

JBroll said:


> In addition, skeptics are typically less partial.
> 
> Jeff



If you mean to (all belief systems) rather then (all belief systems -1) then yes...! 

I'd call it a byproduct of considering their position, though.


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## JBroll

Having one belief system can influence judgment of more than one belief system... just try to get a Baptist to define Catholicism.

Jeff


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## hairychris

JBroll said:


> Having one belief system can influence judgment of more than one belief system... just try to get a Baptist to define Catholicism.
> 
> Jeff



Heh, I know a Northern Irish proddie - their definition of Catholicism is as unrepeatable as it is amusing...


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