# It's official, a """Pantera reunion""" is happening.



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 13, 2022)

It's Official: PANTERA's Surviving Members To Embark On Reunion Tour In 2023


According to Billboard, PANTERA's surviving members will embark on a reunion tour in 2023. Singer Philip Anselmo and bassist Rex Brown have signed with Artist Group International to book their North American dates. Dennis Arfa and Peter Pappalardo will be the responsible agents. "We are thrilled...




blabbermouth.net





...Isn't this basically just another Anselmo solo tour but with Rex? Plus Phil's voice is goooooooooooone.


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## CanserDYI (Jul 13, 2022)

What's next, Nirvana and the Jimi Hendrix Experience?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 13, 2022)

Alright, so are they going to do hologram Dime and Vinnie? 

Honestly, they'd probably get a kick out of it if so.


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## MFB (Jul 13, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Alright, so are they going to do hologram Dime and Vinnie?
> 
> Honestly, they'd probably get a kick out of it if so.



Who do I have to pay to sneak in a Nathan Gale hologram on the first night of the tour?


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## sleewell (Jul 13, 2022)

So much nope.


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## NoodleFace (Jul 13, 2022)

Gonna be a no from me dawg


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 13, 2022)

pretty hard to do a Pantera reunion without dimebag or his brother lmao


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## Werecow (Jul 13, 2022)

Shitty cashgrab.

Also, i genuinely lol'd at their two best tough guy faces in the photos.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 13, 2022)

Werecow said:


> Shitty cashgrab.
> 
> Also, i genuinely lol'd at their two best tough guy faces in the photos.


If Blabbermouth is good at anything, it's finding the least photogenic pictures possible.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

This is fucking gross. "Pantera" and "Van Halen" can go fuck themselves.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 13, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> "Van Halen"


I respect DLR for trying to keep that project from happening.


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## eaeolian (Jul 13, 2022)

The two least important parts of the band!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I respect DLR for trying to keep that project from happening.


Keep it from happening? I thought he and "Pink" were going to do it. Then again, I could imagine that being his brand of dry humor.


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## nickgray (Jul 13, 2022)

Patiently waiting for a John Lennon reunion


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

eaeolian said:


> The two least important parts of the band!


Phil turned it into a try hard joke. I would've much preferred they kept it similar to Power Metal and CFH.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 13, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Keep it from happening? I thought he and "Pink" were going to do it. Then again, I could imagine that being his brand of dry humor.


That whole email seemed like a joke to me, yeah.

Otherwise this is what I heard.









DAVID LEE ROTH Is 'Holding Up' VAN HALEN Tribute Project, Says Radio Personality EDDIE TRUNK


David Lee Roth is the main reason the proposed all-star VAN HALEN tribute project has yet to move forward, according to SiriusXM radio personality Eddie Trunk. No progress has been reported on a possible VAN HALEN tribute concert since April when former METALLICA bassist Jason Newsted revealed...




blabbermouth.net


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 13, 2022)

I like to think this came about like this:

Rex: Hey, Phil, I saw this cool speedboat I want. Want to do the whole Pantera thing for a ton of cash?
Phil: Can I have a ride in it?
Rex: Sure.
Phil: I'm in.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That whole email seemed like a joke to me, yeah.
> 
> Otherwise this is what I heard.
> 
> ...


There is NO reunion of either band without Eddie or Vinnie and DImebag. Both ideas are repulsive.


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## bjjman (Jul 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Plus Phil's voice is goooooooooooone.


I saw Down play with Alice In Chains a few years back and gone is an understatement. Anselmo's voice hasn't just left - it went without settling the bill, skipped town and was last seen heading for Mexico.


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## mmr007 (Jul 13, 2022)

What musicians (if any) would it take to get any of you guys interested in a reforming of the band? If this is just Phil and Rex asking Zakk and Dave Grohl to play some stadium dates...uggh. But if they were to announce that Pantera, the band will go into the studio to make new music as well....is there any chance you would be interested and what musicians would have to round out the band to make it seem legit?


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## Turd Ferguson (Jul 13, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> What musicians (if any) would it take to get any of you guys interested in a reforming of the band? If this is just Phil and Rex asking Zakk and Dave Grohl to play some stadium dates...uggh. But if they were to announce that Pantera, the band will go into the studio to make new music as well....is there any chance you would be interested and what musicians would have to round out the band to make it seem legit?



Can't be done. Pantera without Dime is not Pantera, simple as that.


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## Veldar (Jul 13, 2022)

Irrelevant bassist and neonazi cash grab tour extravaganza


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 13, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> What musicians (if any) would it take to get any of you guys interested in a reforming of the band? If this is just Phil and Rex asking Zakk and Dave Grohl to play some stadium dates...uggh. But if they were to announce that Pantera, the band will go into the studio to make new music as well....is there any chance you would be interested and what musicians would have to round out the band to make it seem legit?



I'd be happier with a limited tour with guests like Zakk and Dave and maybe some other guys who were friends of the band. That actually sounds like fun.

I think I'd actually be more interested if they didn't have Phil, and just got a bunch of different vocalists to pay homage to the band.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 13, 2022)

I wouldn't be shocked if it's some of Phil's solo guys filling the slots.


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## mmr007 (Jul 13, 2022)

If its just a who's who of celebrity musicians then it doesn't feel like getting the band back together or a true reunion. The only only reason I ask is Judas Priest is now NOT KK or Glenn. If you asked me years ago how I would have felt about that I would have scoffed but after how much I enjoyed Firepower and how much I like Richie as a guitarist the once unthinkable is now thinkable. I totally get that Pantera's identity is critically linked to Dime, but if the band were to reunite with permanent replacement members does anyone create intrigue and lend legitimacy?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> What musicians (if any) would it take to get any of you guys interested in a reforming of the band? If this is just Phil and Rex asking Zakk and Dave Grohl to play some stadium dates...uggh. But if they were to announce that Pantera, the band will go into the studio to make new music as well....is there any chance you would be interested and what musicians would have to round out the band to make it seem legit?


How about CC Deville on guitar?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I wouldn't be shocked if it's some of Phil's solo guys filling the slots.


Most likely this. The dude from the Illegals or whatever who looks like an awful Dimebag stunt double.


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## mmr007 (Jul 13, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> How about CC Deville on guitar?


He far too underrated


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> If its just a who's who of celebrity musicians then it doesn't feel like getting the band back together or a true reunion. The only only reason I ask is Judas Priest is now NOT KK or Glenn. If you asked me years ago how I would have felt about that I would have scoffed but after how much I enjoyed Firepower and how much I like Richie as a guitarist the once unthinkable is now thinkable. I totally get that Pantera's identity is critically linked to Dime, but if the band were to reunite with permanent replacement members does anyone create intrigue and lend legitimacy?


This is different than Judas Priest. I think, despite Richie kind of coming across as somewhat of a KK Downing understudy, he has the chops and so on to make it work. Plus, KK left. Meanwhile, Dimebag and Vinnie started Pantera, played on every album, were heavily involved in getting Pantera from bar band to worldwide touring act, etc. Touring without Dimebag is like Van Halen attempting to tour without Eddie.


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## Giest (Jul 13, 2022)

I am 100% for bringing Dimebag back as a Jedi ghost, if not GTFO.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

Giest said:


> I am 100% for bringing Dimebag back as a Jedi ghost, if not GTFO.


Obi Wan Shinobi, you're our only hope!


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## JW Shreds (Jul 13, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> What musicians (if any) would it take to get any of you guys interested in a reforming of the band? If this is just Phil and Rex asking Zakk and Dave Grohl to play some stadium dates...uggh. But if they were to announce that Pantera, the band will go into the studio to make new music as well....is there any chance you would be interested and what musicians would have to round out the band to make it seem legit?


As hard as it is to fill Dime's shoes, the only person that comes to mind is Wes Hauch.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 13, 2022)

megadeth1391 said:


> As hard as it is to fill Dime's shoes, the only person that comes to mind is Wes Hauch.


You'll get Marzi Monzawhatever and like it.


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## mmr007 (Jul 13, 2022)

How about the guy in the middle?


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## JW Shreds (Jul 13, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> View attachment 110705
> 
> 
> How about the guy in the middle?


Man Rocky has to be one of the most underrated guitarists ever. He's sooooooo sick. Shit now i have to go listen to him rip it up on "You Can't Bring Me Down" haha


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## mmr007 (Jul 13, 2022)

If Rocky George played I would be VERY interested


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## pahulkster (Jul 13, 2022)

Werecow said:


> Shitty cashgrab.
> 
> Also, i genuinely lol'd at their two best tough guy faces in the photos.


Same face as every Pantera fan reading the article


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## John (Jul 13, 2022)

That's a Panterrible idea.


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## BornToLooze (Jul 13, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd be happier with a limited tour with guests like Zakk and Dave and maybe some other guys who were friends of the band. That actually sounds like fun.
> 
> I think I'd actually be more interested if they didn't have Phil, and just got a bunch of different vocalists to pay homage to the band.



Honestly, back in the day I would have been totally cool with a memorial thing with Zakk filling in. And I'm like Ola when it comes to Pantera...but dude...your 5 minutes are up.


But this reminds me, is Down still a thing anymore?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 13, 2022)

BornToLooze said:


> Honestly, back in the day I would have been totally cool with a memorial thing with Zakk filling in. And I'm like Ola when it comes to Pantera...but dude...your 5 minutes are up.
> 
> 
> But this reminds me, is Down still a thing anymore?


I think they literally just went back on tour a month ago.


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## Benzene (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> View attachment 110705
> 
> 
> How about the guy in the middle?


Honestly, I think this George Benson guy would be a great addition to the new Pantera 2022 line-up. Give that man the Dime-bolt and I bet he'd look great with the blue and white lightning pattern. Get ya pull on George Benson!!!


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## Steinmetzify (Jul 14, 2022)

Wtf, how do you have a reunion tour when arguably the most important 50% of the band are dead?

‘We’re having a reunion tour!’

No you aren’t….


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 14, 2022)

Put Pepper Keenan on vox.

Will this be a Dime Guitars co-headliner?

/hottake


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## mmr007 (Jul 14, 2022)

Benzene said:


> Honestly, I think this George Benson guy would be a great addition to the new Pantera 2022 line-up. Give that man the Dime-bolt and I bet he'd look great with the blue and white lightning pattern. Get ya pull on George Benson!!!


Why do you keep calling him George Benson?


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## Veldar (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Why do you keep calling him George Benson?


Nah I actually fully support having George Benson get up with his hollow bodys and comp over a new level


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## mmr007 (Jul 14, 2022)

Here are some "George Benson" solos. Of course when Mr. Benson was with Suicidal Tendencies he only played Ibanez RGs and Universes which notoriously don't have tremolos so Mr. Benson would have to learn how to use a tremolo first were he to fill the theoretical shoes I put in front of him.


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## Metalman X (Jul 14, 2022)

BornToLooze said:


> Honestly, back in the day I would have been totally cool with a memorial thing with Zakk filling in. And I'm like Ola when it comes to Pantera...but dude...your 5 minutes are up.
> 
> 
> But this reminds me, is Down still a thing anymore?


Yeah, there was like a moment in time this could've been a cool, possibly one off tour, with Vinnie on drums when he was still around. Cuz Zakk was seemingly a close friend, so this would've at least had a chance of being a cool experience and not a greasy cash grab.

But, for reasons, that never happened. I get the feeling Vinnie would NOT have been cool with this for a number of reasons (Phil perhaps still being a big reason). But I don't know any of these dudes personally, so I can't speak to there sincerity. Suffice it say, it at least seems somewhat suspect that this is only being a thing now, years after both the brothers Abbott have left us. And if Vinny wouldn't have been down with this being a thing, I can't help but feel a bit skeevy at the prospect despite being a long time Pantera fan. 

I'm glad I got to see them several times between '97 all the way up til they parted ways. They went hard live, in a way I've not seen too many other bands do since.


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## coreysMonster (Jul 14, 2022)

I would rather see a Beatles reunion tour with Ringo and Pete Best.


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## manu80 (Jul 14, 2022)

What would people do to pay their taxes…
Can’t believe benante and zakk are part of this…
Well as long as people will go and pay for it, they’re right to do so but I wish people get smart and they sell no tickets at all….


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## StevenC (Jul 14, 2022)

Death to All was a fluke


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## Steo (Jul 14, 2022)

There was talk if this a few weeks ago, on a podcast. Kerry King's name cropped up for guitars


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## WarMachine (Jul 14, 2022)

No.

Just, no.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 14, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Death to All was a fluke



DTA always comes to mind when “reunion“ tours are mentioned. This is a complete cash grab while that was a celebration of Chuck’s music. I’d love to see more tours like DTA for musicians that have passed away. 

They should have done a festival spot, high up the main stage but not headlining. Get lots of musicians playing that festival to come on for songs. That could have gauges people’s interest and warmed people up to the idea. Phil Anselmo band ft Rex playing Pantera was a very poor choice.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 14, 2022)

manu80 said:


> What would people do to pay their taxes…
> Can’t believe benante and zakk are part of this…
> Well as long as people will go and pay for it, they’re right to do so but I wish people get smart and they sell no tickets at all….


Are they apart of this?


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## Emperoff (Jul 14, 2022)

manu80 said:


> What would people do to pay their taxes…
> Can’t believe benante and zakk are part of this…
> Well as long as people will go and pay for it, they’re right to do so but I wish people get smart and they sell no tickets at all….



Honestly if anyone is entitled to play as Dime, that would be Zakk


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 14, 2022)

I don’t see Zakk’s name confirmed, only a few snippets of interviews saying it wouldn’t be him but could also be him.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 14, 2022)

Pretty stoked for the Rita vs. Phil&Rex lawsuits. Gonna be like an episode of Springer with more white trash and confederate flags.


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## BornToLooze (Jul 14, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think they literally just went back on tour a month ago.


Ok, this got me wondering because I don't keep up with metal anymore.


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## Riffer (Jul 14, 2022)

Oh man. I'm a huge Pantera/Dime fan. Part of me says why not? I never got to see them and at least I could witness half of the band play these classic songs with possibly some great musicians filling the shoes like Zakk and Portnoy maybe? But the more I think about it the more it comes off as lame and not genuine. I mean Pantera IS/WAS Dime and Vin. They even started another band (Damageplan) and honestly could've called that Pantera and I think people would've been fine with it because those guys ARE the band. But even they didn't name it Pantera. A lot of it has to do with the verbiage too. Don't call it a reunion. Call it a tribute or a memorial or whatever. Don't act like the entire band is reuniting and patching things up or something. Dime was shot 5 times in the back of the head while performing on stage. Jesus Christ, just let it be and play a few Pantera songs as tribute during your other bands shows. Don't wave the Pantera flag like the shows back on.

Also, we are all just assuming at this point. Nothing from Phil, Rex, or Panteras social media. Maybe when/if more comes out it won't come off as a cash grab but it's hard to deny when Rex just released his new signature bass with Gibson and now this "reunion" news is leaking.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 14, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Pretty stoked for the Rita vs. Phil&Rex lawsuits. Gonna be like an episode of Springer with more white trash and confederate flags.


Getcha Pull!

I think it could really surpass Jerry Springer if/when it came out in court cases that Dime fanboys in the metal community (like say, oh I don't know, maybe Rob from Machine Head) was banging "Dime's Hag" or whatever she goes by. Lol


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## Randy (Jul 14, 2022)

Too soon for a Damageplan reunion?


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 14, 2022)

Randy said:


> Too soon for a Damageplan reunion?



Probably not for Rita.


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## Randy (Jul 14, 2022)

I'm not down on Rita as much as most. She was with him forever and any time a person's death is untimely, the caretaker of their legacy is whoever was still in their life at the time. That's who he chose to spend his time with, so that's who got the last say on how his image is used afterward. Sucks but


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 14, 2022)

This is gonna suck, and it's gonna sell out. You'll be able to smell the stale beer, BO, and schwag weed from miles away at each show.


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## Demiurge (Jul 14, 2022)

Hey, if legacy acts with a fraction of their original lineups didn't tour, what would you hear at every county fair? Silence, that's what.


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## nightflameauto (Jul 14, 2022)

I dunno how I feel about this other than it shouldn't be called a Pantera "reunion." Tribute? Maybe.

Phil actually didn't sound horrible when I saw him on the Slayer tour. As the drunk/stoned/coked addled pukes in front of me said, "That dude doing the Pantera covers is alright." That said, I wouldn't pay directly to see Phil doing Pantera tunes, even with that line-up again. It was fun to relive those tunes in that environment, but come on. Pantera was Pantera because of Dime and Vinnie. While Phil and Rex had their places, this would be like pouring chocolate syrup in a bowl and calling it a sunday. No. Just no.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 14, 2022)

I thought the "rEuNiOn" was Phil's crackheaded fever dream but apparently this wasn't just a slapdash idea.
Someone at Gibson felt like getting a tax writeoff for giving to the less fortunate and they gave WhatsHisFace a signature bass.
The best part? The entire goddamn video is a showcase of Dime's guitar playing and you can barely hear bass anywhere.


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## mmr007 (Jul 14, 2022)

We all have rights to opinions but I guess it also makes sense to wait and see what comes of it and what they do with it. Alice in Chains is a band again with only half its original members. Alice in Chains. Without Layne. And it works. Was it an AIC cash grab because the solo thing didnt pan out? I dont think so. Pantera without dimebag seems very very odd but we shouldn’t rush to immediately call it disingenuous


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## Perge (Jul 14, 2022)




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## tedtan (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> We all have rights to opinions but I guess it also makes sense to wait and see what comes of it and what they do with it. Alice in Chains is a band again with only half its original members. Alice in Chains. Without Layne. And it works. Was it an AIC cash grab because the solo thing didnt pan out? I dont think so. Pantera without dimebag seems very very odd but we shouldn’t rush to immediately call it disingenuous


Cantrell was a huge part of the AiC sound, though. This Panera thing is more like doing AiC without Layne or Jerry.


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## ShredmasterD (Jul 14, 2022)

hard pass here. there's a saying: 'you cant go home again.' let it be.


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## mmr007 (Jul 14, 2022)

Anselmo was a huge part of Pantera's sound. Don't believe me? Just ask all 3 Damageplan fans


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## ArtDecade (Jul 14, 2022)

1995
"Wanna see Pantera?" 
Me: "Lol. No."

2022
"Wanna see Pantera?" 
Me: "Lol. No. Lol."


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## mastapimp (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Anselmo was a huge part of Pantera's sound. Don't believe me? Just ask all 3 Damageplan fans


Damageplan sounded more like pantera than Down, Superjoint, or Kill Devil Hill. I think Phil and Rex can definitely put something together that will sound like Pantera and can satisfy people's expectations of performing old material, but if they intend to write new material, good luck with that.


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## ShredmasterD (Jul 14, 2022)

all the talk of guitar, but who will drum?


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## ArtDecade (Jul 14, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> Damageplan sounded more like pantera than Down, Superjoint, or Kill Devil Hill.



And that was their first mistake.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> We all have rights to opinions but I guess it also makes sense to wait and see what comes of it and what they do with it. Alice in Chains is a band again with only half its original members. Alice in Chains. Without Layne. And it works. Was it an AIC cash grab because the solo thing didnt pan out? I dont think so. Pantera without dimebag seems very very odd but we shouldn’t rush to immediately call it disingenuous


Listen..at best, Pantera was the Vinnie and Dime show. Phuckhead's vocals definitely helped but not enough for him to drag WhatsHisBass back into the fray and call it a Pantera reunion.
Most people besides diehard fanboys are sick of Phuckhead and his drugged up, white supremacist bullshit. He completely tarnished Pantera and whatever could be left.
I'm not even sure that Pantera would be all that relevant had they still been around now. You could replace WhatsHisBass with a sock puppet and no one would notice because nobody and I mean NOBODY gave a shit about the bass in Pantera. The only two good things in that band are dead and what's left is a crackhead racist and the guy who did the bass you could barely hear in Pantera songs.
This reunion is a cash grab and it's just those two making a move since Vinnie can't tell them to fuck off. This pleases only the most diehard "can't let it go" people who will take anything.
This is just like Rita trying to buck for cash since Vinnie isn't around to keep her from acting a fool. Apparently Vinnie was the dam that saved all of us from the idiot flood and now that he's not here we're all gonna drown in the greed of a bunch of nobodies trying to suck up some of that sweet nostalgia cash from Pantera's mouth breathing super fanbase.


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## akinari (Jul 14, 2022)

Weird feelings about this. Happy for the fans, but it doesn't feel right knowing how Vinnie felt about Phil. I think I'm kinda leaning towards "wish this wasn't happening" based on that. I just hope Phil and Rex have their hearts and intentions in the right place.


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## mmr007 (Jul 14, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Listen..at best, Pantera was the Vinnie and Dime show. Phuckhead's vocals definitely helped but not enough for him to drag WhatsHisBass back into the fray and call it a Pantera reunion.
> Most people besides diehard fanboys are sick of Phuckhead and his drugged up, white supremacist bullshit. He completely tarnished Pantera and whatever could be left.
> I'm not even sure that Pantera would be all that relevant had they still been around now. You could replace WhatsHisBass with a sock puppet and no one would notice because nobody and I mean NOBODY gave a shit about the bass in Pantera. The only two good things in that band are dead and what's left is a crackhead racist and the guy who did the bass you could barely hear in Pantera songs.
> This reunion is a cash grab and it's just those two making a move since Vinnie can't tell them to fuck off. This pleases only the most diehard "can't let it go" people who will take anything.
> This is just like Rita trying to buck for cash since Vinnie isn't around to keep her from acting a fool. Apparently Vinnie was the dam that saved all of us from the idiot flood and now that he's not here we're all gonna drown in the greed of a bunch of nobodies trying to suck up some of that sweet nostalgia cash from Pantera's mouth breathing super fanbase.


So even if they do in fact get George Benson on guitar put you down as a hard no?


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## STRHelvete (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> So even if they do in fact get George Benson on guitar put you down as a hard no?


Let me know when someone dropkicks Phil in the head and it forces him to shut up forever and go sit down somewhere. THAT I'll buy the ticket for.


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## bostjan (Jul 14, 2022)

Vinnie and Dime were the only two original members of the band when it first broke up. But this happens. I remember Credence Clearwater Revival did a reunion without any Fogerty brothers involved, which is about on par with how authentic this feels.


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## MFB (Jul 14, 2022)

Man, this does make me think of how rad a solid Pantera tribute line-up would be. Let Zakk be the face/brand recognition of it, have Gina Gleason as the second guitarist, bring on Troy from Mastodon to do vocals/bass, and then take your pick for a drummer.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 14, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> We all have rights to opinions but I guess it also makes sense to wait and see what comes of it and what they do with it. Alice in Chains is a band again with only half its original members. Alice in Chains. Without Layne. And it works. Was it an AIC cash grab because the solo thing didnt pan out? I dont think so. Pantera without dimebag seems very very odd but we shouldn’t rush to immediately call it disingenuous



AIC also still has their primary songwriter who wrote a shitload of the vocal melodies and lyrics while Layne was still alive. For all in tents with porpoises, Cantrell is like 75% of AIC. 

I’d consider Pantera to be 75% Dime/Vinnie, 23% Phil and 2% Rex. Phil can and has done his vocals over other bands, Rex has been along for the ride for some of those just as he was in Pantera, but finding guys who could gel/write like Dime and Vinnie, eh, I dunno. It’s literally the same thing to me as Alex/Eddie.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 14, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> AIC also still has their primary songwriter who wrote a shitload of the vocal melodies and lyrics while Layne was still alive. For all in tents with porpoises, Cantrell is like 75% of AIC.


I wanted to say this earlier, but yeah.
AiC can go on without Layne, but they couldn't without Jerry.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 14, 2022)

Metalman X said:


> Yeah, there was like a moment in time this could've been a cool, possibly one off tour, with Vinnie on drums when he was still around. Cuz Zakk was seemingly a close friend, so this would've at least had a chance of being a cool experience and not a greasy cash grab.
> 
> But, for reasons, that never happened. I get the feeling Vinnie would NOT have been cool with this for a number of reasons (Phil perhaps still being a big reason). But I don't know any of these dudes personally, so I can't speak to there sincerity. Suffice it say, it at least seems somewhat suspect that this is only being a thing now, years after both the brothers Abbott have left us. And if Vinny wouldn't have been down with this being a thing, I can't help but feel a bit skeevy at the prospect despite being a long time Pantera fan.
> 
> I'm glad I got to see them several times between '97 all the way up til they parted ways. They went hard live, in a way I've not seen too many other bands do since.


Yup this is what bothers me about the whole thing. Why now? Correct me if I'm wrong but Vin previously refused to do a reunion without Dime and things were never mended. 

Would they be rolling in their graves or happy to see this? I feel if Dime was with us one day this would have happened but unfortunately he isn't and there is no way to know.

Since Vin previously refused then I can't say Hellyeah.


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## failsafe (Jul 14, 2022)

Zakk on guitar and Jordan from AILD on drums would work for me.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 14, 2022)

IIRC yeah, Vin was the reason it never happened. He wasn't too close to Rex and wasn't close to Phil at all.


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## Riffer (Jul 14, 2022)

Hands down the best band covering Pantera I’ve ever seen. I would probably go see these guys before I’d see this “reunion” because it seems like it’s more an actual tribute to the band and the love of the songs and energy.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 14, 2022)

.


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## bjjman (Jul 14, 2022)

So it has been announced that it'll be Zakk Wylde and Charlie Benante doing the tour. 

For those of you in the thread saying Phil wasn't a huge part of the Pantera sound, he was a freaking vocal powerhouse back in the day. Honestly hard to imagine them with another singer. He was also a hell of a front man. Just sad that he's made his legacy drink, drugs and white supremacist bullshit.

Rex was probably the smallest part of the equation in Pantera but, in my book, he still gets points for best post-Pantera band with Kill Devil Hill.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 14, 2022)

I love Zakk and Charlie 
But nah this reunion is still fucked.


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## Manurack (Jul 14, 2022)

I think it would be cool seeing some other great guitarists do some solos live, like Ola for example, he knows Dime's shit inside and out. 

If they do that with some guest guitarists, I'd be interested to see the show - as long as they don't have Dave Mustaine ruining the solo like he did on the first Gigantour tour when some of the bands played Cemetery Gates live.


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## jaxadam (Jul 14, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Listen..at best, Pantera was the Vinnie and Dime show. Phuckhead's vocals definitely helped but not enough for him to drag WhatsHisBass back into the fray and call it a Pantera reunion.
> Most people besides diehard fanboys are sick of Phuckhead and his drugged up, white supremacist bullshit. He completely tarnished Pantera and whatever could be left.
> I'm not even sure that Pantera would be all that relevant had they still been around now. You could replace WhatsHisBass with a sock puppet and no one would notice because nobody and I mean NOBODY gave a shit about the bass in Pantera. The only two good things in that band are dead and what's left is a crackhead racist and the guy who did the bass you could barely hear in Pantera songs.
> This reunion is a cash grab and it's just those two making a move since Vinnie can't tell them to fuck off. This pleases only the most diehard "can't let it go" people who will take anything.
> This is just like Rita trying to buck for cash since Vinnie isn't around to keep her from acting a fool. Apparently Vinnie was the dam that saved all of us from the idiot flood and now that he's not here we're all gonna drown in the greed of a bunch of nobodies trying to suck up some of that sweet nostalgia cash from Pantera's mouth breathing super fanbase.


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## Bodes (Jul 14, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Pretty stoked for the Rita vs. Phil&Rex lawsuits. Gonna be like an episode of Springer with more white trash and confederate flags.



How is this even possible?
Or is it that there will be proportionately less non-white trash than on Springer?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

Zakk and Charlie deserve all the derision and more. Fuck em.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Listen..at best, Pantera was the Vinnie and Dime show. Phuckhead's vocals definitely helped but not enough for him to drag WhatsHisBass back into the fray and call it a Pantera reunion.
> Most people besides diehard fanboys are sick of Phuckhead and his drugged up, white supremacist bullshit. He completely tarnished Pantera and whatever could be left.
> I'm not even sure that Pantera would be all that relevant had they still been around now. You could replace WhatsHisBass with a sock puppet and no one would notice because nobody and I mean NOBODY gave a shit about the bass in Pantera. The only two good things in that band are dead and what's left is a crackhead racist and the guy who did the bass you could barely hear in Pantera songs.
> This reunion is a cash grab and it's just those two making a move since Vinnie can't tell them to fuck off. This pleases only the most diehard "can't let it go" people who will take anything.
> This is just like Rita trying to buck for cash since Vinnie isn't around to keep her from acting a fool. Apparently Vinnie was the dam that saved all of us from the idiot flood and now that he's not here we're all gonna drown in the greed of a bunch of nobodies trying to suck up some of that sweet nostalgia cash from Pantera's mouth breathing super fanbase.


This is spot on.


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## eaeolian (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> We all have rights to opinions but I guess it also makes sense to wait and see what comes of it and what they do with it. Alice in Chains is a band again with only half its original members. Alice in Chains. Without Layne. And it works. Was it an AIC cash grab because the solo thing didnt pan out? I dont think so. Pantera without dimebag seems very very odd but we shouldn’t rush to immediately call it disingenuous


...but with its main songwriter and putting out new music. So, not actually anything like this.


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## eaeolian (Jul 15, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Zakk and Charlie deserve all the derision and more. Fuck em.


They got bills to pay. At least they're both legit players who were close with the Abbotts. This still sucks, but they'll try and do it right.
This has been cooking for a while, too. The Gibson thing proves that.


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## Perge (Jul 15, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I love Zakk and Charlie
> But nah this reunion is still fucked.


The Pantera reunion anyone should care about happened in Dallas at ozzfest after Dime died, and this is obviously a cash grab by washed up Phil (who Vinnie never reconciled with and practically blamed dimes death on him)

Honestly disappointed in zakk for agreeing to do it. Must be running out of money.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

eaeolian said:


> ...but with its main songwriter and putting out new music. So, not actually anything like this.


The fact they tried to make that comparison, when it isn't even apples to oranges, is hilarious. More like apples (AIC) to potatoes ("Pantera" or Shamtera, as they should be known).


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

Perge said:


> The Pantera reunion anyone should care about happened in Dallas at ozzfest after Dime died, and this is obviously a cash grab by washed up Phil (who Vinnie never reconciled with and practically blamed dimes death on him)
> 
> Honestly disappointed in zakk for agreeing to do it. Must be running out of money.


I can sorta see why Vinnie blamed Phil for Dime's death.

The signature boutique coffee and gaudy signature guitar line can only afford one so many HGH supplements.


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## Emperoff (Jul 15, 2022)

Heirs of the Abbott brothers probably gave the green light to cash in as well, so it's definetely not all Phil's fault.



Riffer said:


> Hands down the best band covering Pantera I’ve ever seen. I would probably go see these guys before I’d see this “reunion” because it seems like it’s more an actual tribute to the band and the love of the songs and energy.




That was probably better than the real Pantera


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

.... so does this mean that Zakk is going to talk to Rita and start making those Dime guitars? #crossmarketing


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

so.....Rex Brown playing in a reformed version of Pantera is "cashing in" while Nita Strauss jumping ship to play with....Demi Lovato...is a "you go girl" moment? I'm glad Nita is advancing and making money playing for WHATEVER band she can or wants to to advance her income portfolio. But Rex...buddy, please, you need to figure out an alternative way to make money lest I pass judgement on thee. You are not deserving of money...pay your bills on my memory of Pantera or GTFO


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 15, 2022)

I'm actually fine with this. Yeah, it's a little weird to call it "Pantera" with the two main guys both dead. But Zack on guitar will be great. Phil's vocals are pretty mixed - I'm curious to see whether he can still sing the old stuff like he used to.


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## Riffer (Jul 15, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> That was probably better than the real Pantera


RIGHT! They are super tight and have all the parts down pretty exact. I follow the guitar player on Instagram and Youtube. He breaks down quite a few Pantera riffs/solos and he's really good at it (to me at least).


mmr007 said:


> so.....Rex Brown playing in a reformed version of Pantera is "cashing in" while Nita Strauss jumping ship to play with....Demi Lovato...is a "you go girl" moment? I'm glad Nita is advancing and making money playing for WHATEVER band she can or wants to to advance her income portfolio. But Rex...buddy, please, you need to figure out an alternative way to make money lest I pass judgement on thee. You are not deserving of money...pay your bills on my memory of Pantera or GTFO


Calling it a Pantera reunion is just a slap in the face to the fans in my opinion. I don't mind that they actual want to tour together with Zakk on guitar and Charlie on drums. Go ahead and make the money. Just don't act like it's "the band" reuniting for one last tour type of thing and milk that for extra cash and insult the fans by doing so.


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## Emperoff (Jul 15, 2022)

The sad part is that no matter how much we whine about it, they are going to headline pretty much everywhere. This is gonna be big, even if it ends up being a disaster. Plenty of people (specially those that don't know Phil Anselmo is completely wasted) are super excited already, even more with Zakk in there.

I haven't even looked at possible tour dates, but I already checked for that Pantera cover band shown above. Holy shit are those guys good.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

They should call themselves Panther. It means Pantera in English.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

See that's what the problem is. They are touring with only 50% of the original members (Terry Glaze doesn't count) which puts them at an equal or higher percentage of original members than some other huge bands. But Pantera is one of only a half handful (not even full handful) where one member (Dime) is soooo iconic that the band does not seem to be capable of having an identity apart from him. It can have viable musical life...just will always lack that identity. Plus since we never saw Dime age because he was murdered in the prime of his life, to see a bunch of old guys trying to play a new version of Pantera 20+ years later does seem weird. I'm not some Pantera homer...I like them but honestly they wouldn't crack the top 40 of my favorite metal bands, but what they are doing isnt irreverent or disrespectful to the legacy or a fuck you to the fans. They are doing their job....the thing that we all either do now or hope to do...make money making music


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## ChrisRushing (Jul 15, 2022)

I'll admit I'm not up to date on the latest band drama but did Dime or Vinnie ever get right with Phil before their deaths? This just seems like something they would not have endorsed. Maybe I missed something. 
Having said that, they should go after somebody like Vogg from Decapitated and call this thing a "Tribute". The last thing I want to hear is 10,000 Zakk Wylde pinch harmonics ruining Pantera songs. Look at how bad he played Black Sabbath songs touring with Ozzy. 
Also Phil was HORRIBLE on some of the later tours. They won't get my money and I am a huge fan.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2022)

ChrisRushing said:


> I'll admit I'm not up to date on the latest band drama but did Dime or Vinnie ever get right with Phil before their deaths? This just seems like something they would not have endorsed. Maybe I missed something.
> Having said that, they should go after somebody like Vogg from Decapitated and call this thing a "Tribute". The last thing I want to hear is 10,000 Zakk Wylde pinch harmonics ruining Pantera songs. Look at how bad he played Black Sabbath songs touring with Ozzy.
> Also Phil was HORRIBLE on some of the later tours. They won't get my money and I am a huge fan.



Vinnie didn't even want anything to do with Rex, let alone Phil.

One of the reasons this never happened was that Vinnie was never going to sign off on a "reunion". His control of Dime's estate after his death pretty much guaranteed it.

But then Vinnie died, so control went to their father, Jerry, in 2018.

Jerry is in his 80's now. His wife and children are dead. His own health is questionable. So, after years of Rita trying to get some control back, he finally ceded.

She wants money, and Phil and Rex know she'll go along with it when dollar signs start coming in.


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## Riffer (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> See that's what the problem is. They are touring with only 50% of the original members (Terry Glaze doesn't count) which puts them at an equal or higher percentage of original members than some other huge bands. But Pantera is one of only a half handful (not even full handful) where one member (Dime) is soooo iconic that the band does not seem to be capable of having an identity apart from him. It can have viable musical life...just will always lack that identity. Plus since we never saw Dime age because he was murdered in the prime of his life, to see a bunch of old guys trying to play a new version of Pantera 20+ years later does seem weird. I'm not some Pantera homer...I like them but honestly they wouldn't crack the top 40 of my favorite metal bands, but what they are doing isnt irreverent or disrespectful to the legacy or a fuck you to the fans. They are doing their job....the thing that we all either do now or hope to do...make money making music


To me that's more of a reason to NOT do this. Dime was Pantera. He started the band with his brother. His riffs and solos are what everyone was drawn to. He was one of a kind. You can't replace it. I could maybe see this if it was back when Vin was alive. You'd at least have 3/4 the band and one of the OGs (Vinnie). Phil has had plenty of other bands that make money. Rex has had other bands and they BOTH were in Down. Down had the same amount of Pantera members as this new "Pantera" reunion. Is Down also Pantera now? I'm pretty sure Down played a few Pantera songs live from time to time. In that moment, were they considered Pantera? 



ChrisRushing said:


> I'll admit I'm not up to date on the latest band drama but did Dime or Vinnie ever get right with Phil before their deaths? This just seems like something they would not have endorsed. Maybe I missed something.


As far as I know when Pantera initially broke up there was some bad blood between the Abbotts and Phil. Phil said some shit in an interview about how Dime was a little shit and someone should beat his ass. Then the murder happened and Vinnie partially blamed Phil for it. Phil put out that video where he apologized profusely to the Abbott family and was in tears after the murder. Vinnie never forgave Phil before he passed and always distanced himself from him as far as I know. Someone mentioned that Rita (Dime wife) has forgiven Phil but I don't know how true that is.


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## Riffer (Jul 15, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Vinnie didn't even want anything to do with Rex, let alone Phil.
> 
> One of the reasons this never happened was that Vinnie was never going to sign off on a "reunion". His control of Dime's estate after his death pretty much guaranteed it.


I mean just imagine you and your brother have bad blood with someone who you used to be super tight with. They call for your brother to get his ass beat. Then a crazy person shows up to a gig and shoots your brother in the head 5 times while you sit behind the drums and watch it happen. I can see how Vinnie would be just done with Phil. I don't think Phil wanted Dime to die and he was so drunk and drugged up most of the time he would say dumb shit. I think Phils apology was sincere but it was just a little too late for Vin, and I can't really say I blame him. It was his best friend, his brother, his right hand man who he started this legendary band with that was killed in front of him.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2022)

Riffer said:


> I mean just imagine you and your brother have bad blood with someone who you used to be super tight with. They call for your brother to get his ass beat. Then a crazy person shows up to a gig and shoots your brother in the head 5 times while you sit behind the drums and watch it happen. I can see how Vinnie would be just done with Phil. I don't think Phil wanted Dime to die and he was so drunk and drugged up most of the time he would say dumb shit. I think Phils apology was sincere but it was just a little too late for Vin, and I can't really say I blame him. It was his best friend, his brother, his right hand man who he started this legendary band with.



I don't blame Vinnie at all. I get the impression from interviews that Vinnie didn't directly blame Phil or Rex for what happened to Dime, at least not a few years out as details of Gale's mental health came out, but thought that Phil was a doped up dipshit, which is accurate.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> so.....Rex Brown playing in a reformed version of Pantera is "cashing in" while Nita Strauss jumping ship to play with....Demi Lovato...is a "you go girl" moment? I'm glad Nita is advancing and making money playing for WHATEVER band she can or wants to to advance her income portfolio. But Rex...buddy, please, you need to figure out an alternative way to make money lest I pass judgement on thee. You are not deserving of money...pay your bills on my memory of Pantera or GTFO


What the hell does Nita have to do with this?
A guitarist advancing her career by leaving one job for the next versus two people waiting for the last holdout to get good and cold in the ground before trying to cash in because otherwise he would have been against it.
Nita is progressing in her career, Phil is looking to fund his next crack rock. They don't equate.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

Riffer said:


> To me that's more of a reason to NOT do this. Dime was Pantera. He started the band with his brother. His riffs and solos are what everyone was drawn to. He was one of a kind. You can't replace it. I could maybe see this if it was back when Vin was alive. You'd at least have 3/4 the band and one of the OGs (Vinnie). Phil has had plenty of other bands that make money. Rex has had other bands and they BOTH were in Down. Down had the same amount of Pantera members as this new "Pantera" reunion. Is Down also Pantera now? I'm pretty sure Down played a few Pantera songs live from time to time. In that moment, were they considered Pantera?
> 
> 
> As far as I know when Pantera initially broke up there was some bad blood between the Abbotts and Phil. Phil said some shit in an interview about how Dime was a little shit and someone should beat his ass. Then the murder happened and Vinnie partially blamed Phil for it. Phil put out that video where he apologized profusely to the Abbott family and was in tears after the murder. Vinnie never forgave Phil before he passed and always distanced himself from him as far as I know. Someone mentioned that Rita (Dime wife) has forgiven Phil but I don't know how true that is.


No. I saw Slayer live several times with Holt and Bostaph...I can't claim I saw Exodus even if 50% of the band was Exodus. I saw Slayer. That's the band name. Regardless of what they play you saw the band with the name on the marquee. Even if Dime took a break from Damageplan and joined Phil on stage with Down, that would be Down, not Pantera.

I have no knowledge that Phil wanted Dime dead...he said someone (him) deserves to beat his ass. I don't know how many butterfly effect contortions you have to go through (actually I do because Rita did it) to blame Phil for Dime's death. Let's not forget Rita actually wanted Phil dead and publicly said as much and refused to let Phil come to any service.

But here is where being a grown up comes in which Vinnie clearly was not. There are MARRIED couples who say rancid rancid shit to each other (worse than someone should beat their ass) and have shared a bed together, and created kids and a life together and say mean things in a divorce but if they are mature, they move on and forgive each other and even can be friends. Dime and Phil never slept together, bought a house together, had kids together. They made bro metal together...did a great job at it and then went their separate ways which turned out permanent because of guns and mental illness. Anyone who blames Phil for Dime's death has to blame MM for the Columbine shooters as well.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> What the hell does Nita have to do with this?
> A guitarist advancing her career by leaving one job for the next versus two people waiting for the last holdout to get good and cold in the ground before trying to cash in because otherwise he would have been against it.
> Nita is progressing in her career, Phil is looking to fund his next crack rock. They don't equate.


I think the reasoning is hypocritical. That's what it has to do with it


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## Church2224 (Jul 15, 2022)




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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I think the reasoning is hypocritical. That's what it has to do with it


Nita didn't wait for Alice and his brother who wanted nothing to do with her to both die before planning an Alice Cooper "reunion" to cash grab. There. Explained simply.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

Again, what you call a cash grab I call a paycheck and gatekeeping doesn't pay my bills. or Rex's or Phil's. Phil had the cash cow....it was called Pantera. He walked away to do something else for a while which was remarkably less high profile and paying...Down and SJR. I don't care what their reasons for "regrouping" are, we're the ones bitching about and attributing only negative reasons. They want to get on stage and play Pantera music. You can like it or not, care about it or not. 

If memory serves Phil didn't sit around waiting for the Abbots to die. He made numerous overtures to heal those wounds and be friends and was rebuffed. 

I don't know anything about the legal rights to the name Pantera....maybe it should be called the "Pantera Experience." Does that make it better?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I think the reasoning is hypocritical. That's what it has to do with it


You're reviving a dead band without the 2 most important members that were also dead set on never reuniting the band. You're reaching pretty hard my dude

They could have just called this something like "Cowboys from Hell: A Tribute to Pantera". But nah, went with the most scuffed option


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Again, what you call a cash grab I call a paycheck and gatekeeping doesn't pay my bills. or Rex's or Phil's. Phil had the cash cow....it was called Pantera. He walked away to do something else for a while which was remarkably less high profile and paying...Down and SJR. I don't care what their reasons for "regrouping" are, we're the ones bitching about and attributing only negative reasons. They want to get on stage and play Pantera music. You can like it or not, care about it or not.
> 
> If memory serves Phil didn't sit around waiting for the Abbots to die. He made numerous overtures to heal those wounds and be friends and was rebuffed.
> 
> I don't know anything about the legal rights to the name Pantera....maybe it should be called the "Pantera Experience." Does that make it better?


No..it doesn't make it better. Pantera died with Vinnie and Dime. Watching Zakk Wylde play with WhatsHisBass and a crackhead racist is just sad. A shitty cashgrab is the Anselmo experience, not the Pantera one


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Again, what you call a cash grab I call a paycheck and gatekeeping doesn't pay my bills. or Rex's or Phil's. Phil had the cash cow....it was called Pantera. He walked away to do something else for a while which was remarkably less high profile and paying...Down and SJR. I don't care what their reasons for "regrouping" are, we're the ones bitching about and attributing only negative reasons. They want to get on stage and play Pantera music. You can like it or not, care about it or not.
> 
> If memory serves Phil didn't sit around waiting for the Abbots to die. He made numerous overtures to heal those wounds and be friends and was rebuffed.
> 
> I don't know anything about the legal rights to the name Pantera....maybe it should be called the "Pantera Experience." Does that make it better?



Phil has been touring Pantera songs for years, and Rex has come along for the ride multiple times. 

This is the first time they're throwing around the "Pantera" name, and that's mostly because they couldn't before without trying to make amends with the Abbott camp.

It's just the branding that's rustling some jimmies.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You're reviving a dead band without the 2 most important members that were also dead set on never reuniting the band. You're reaching pretty hard my dude
> 
> They could have just called this something like "Cowboys from Hell: A Tribute to Pantera". But nah, went with the most scuffed option


What exactly am I reaching for? I already said I don't have a dog in this fight. I could care less if Pantera reforms or doesn't. I'm just not mad at the surviving members for doing it. I stressed VERY CLEARLY in an earlier thread that it doesn't make sense because Pantera is Dime, that he is so iconic and there are almost no other bands that have one member define them. But my feelings don't have to be reflected in Rex and Phil's actions. There are tons of bands out there, Skid Row, Queensryche, Megadeth etc etc etc... that carry on despite some fans wanting our original concept of the band kept intact. Through death or irreconcilable difference that is not always possible. I'm not interested...I'm just not mad either because I believe people have a right to make a living even if, in the eyes of others, they've made enough living


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## NoodleFace (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Again, what you call a cash grab I call a paycheck and gatekeeping doesn't pay my bills. or Rex's or Phil's. Phil had the cash cow....it was called Pantera. He walked away to do something else for a while which was remarkably less high profile and paying...Down and SJR. I don't care what their reasons for "regrouping" are, we're the ones bitching about and attributing only negative reasons. They want to get on stage and play Pantera music. You can like it or not, care about it or not.
> 
> If memory serves Phil didn't sit around waiting for the Abbots to die. He made numerous overtures to heal those wounds and be friends and was rebuffed.
> 
> I don't know anything about the legal rights to the name Pantera....maybe it should be called the "Pantera Experience." Does that make it better?


Phil has never come off as sincere to me in his apologies. The dude said in national press that Dimebag should be beaten to a pulp a week before his murder. No matter how you look at it or what you think his intent was, I know personally if I were in that circle I'd never forgive that.

He wasn't allowed at Dimebag's funeral, for good reason.

Whether it's a cash grab or not (it is), doesn't really matter. Dimebag was such a key element in the sound of that band that it'll never be the same. I know Zakk was really good friends with him,, so it's kind of shocking he'd agree to this. Especially because Zakk's playing is so divisive. Maybe I'd feel better if some proceeds were going to charity or something.


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## Perge (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> No. I saw Slayer live several times with Holt and Bostaph...I can't claim I saw Exodus even if 50% of the band was Exodus. I saw Slayer. That's the band name. Regardless of what they play you saw the band with the name on the marquee. Even if Dime took a break from Damageplan and joined Phil on stage with Down, that would be Down, not Pantera.
> 
> I have no knowledge that Phil wanted Dime dead...he said someone (him) deserves to beat his ass. I don't know how many butterfly effect contortions you have to go through (actually I do because Rita did it) to blame Phil for Dime's death. Let's not forget Rita actually wanted Phil dead and publicly said as much and refused to let Phil come to any service.
> 
> But here is where being a grown up comes in which Vinnie clearly was not. There are MARRIED couples who say rancid rancid shit to each other (worse than someone should beat their ass) and have shared a bed together, and created kids and a life together and say mean things in a divorce but if they are mature, they move on and forgive each other and even can be friends. Dime and Phil never slept together, bought a house together, had kids together. They made bro metal together...did a great job at it and then went their separate ways which turned out permanent because of guns and mental illness. Anyone who blames Phil for Dime's death has to blame MM for the Columbine shooters as well.


Except Phil being a giant piece of shit is the whole reason damageplan existed, and the whole reason Dime was playing a shit bar and not headlining under the Pantera name.

Like are you unaware of how his drug issues caused the implosion of Pantera? That you can in fact point the finger at him for why dime was in the situation he was in? Especially coming from his brother? 

Then can you see why having THAT PERSON revive the band name is disrespectful? 

Fucking a, nobody cares if he makes money, he's just doing it in the one way he can remind everyone of how big of a fuck up he is.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Skid Row, Queensryche, Megadeth etc etc etc...



Those bands never stopped. Pantera has been gone now for decades.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

When I was a kid out riding my bike I got hit by a car. It was pretty bad. 8 hours of surgery. This is a true story. If it wasn't for my dad inviting me out to go bike riding I never would have been out there to get hit by that car. I've never been able to forgive my dad for creating that situation (that part of the story isn't true because it just sounds ridiculous).


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Those bands never stopped. Pantera has been gone now for decades.


BUT NITA'S EMAILS!


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> When I was a kid out riding my bike I got hit by a car. It was pretty bad. 8 hours of surgery. This is a true story. If it wasn't for my dad inviting me out to go bike riding I never would have been out there to get hit by that car. I've never been able to forgive my dad for creating that situation (that part of the story isn't true because it just sounds ridiculous).


Did that father of yours give you a name before he walked away?


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

?????


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Did that father of yours give you a name before he walked away?


No..because...


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

I'm sorry but I am failing to see the logic of blame. Phil is somehow responsible for Dime's death because if Phil hadn't broke up the band, Dime wouldn't be on a small shitty stage where mentally ill gunman hangout. Do we blame the assassination of John Lennon on mentally ill Chapman or where it belongs on Paul McCartney because if the Beatles had stayed together Lennon would have been on a big protected stage at that place and time instead on a street corner outside his apartment.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I'm sorry but I am failing to see the logic of blame. Phil is somehow responsible for Dime's death because if Phil hadn't broke up the band, Dime wouldn't be on a small shitty stage where mentally ill gunman hangout. Do we blame the assassination of John Lennon on mentally ill Chapman or where it belongs on Paul McCartney because if the Beatles had stayed together Lennon would have been on a big protected stage at that place and time instead on a street corner outside his apartment.


Paul had the good sense not to reform and cash in... much to Ringo's dismay.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Paul had the good sense not to reform and cash in... much to Ringo's dismay.



You never want to be Ringo, I believe the takeaway is here.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Paul had the good sense not to reform and cash in... much to Ringo's dismay.


It wasn't good sense. Michael Jackson owned the entire Beatles catalog. There would be no money in it.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> It wasn't good sense. Michael Jackson owned the entire Beatles catalog. There would be no money in it.


... you clearly have no idea how much tickets cost ...


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> ... you clearly have no idea how much tickets cost ...


Considering the Rolling Stones refuse to call it quits I imagine there is a pretty penny in there somewhere


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## bostjan (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> See that's what the problem is. They are touring with only 50% of the original members (Terry Glaze doesn't count) which puts them at an equal or higher percentage of original members than some other huge bands. But Pantera is one of only a half handful (not even full handful) where one member (Dime) is soooo iconic that the band does not seem to be capable of having an identity apart from him. It can have viable musical life...just will always lack that identity. Plus since we never saw Dime age because he was murdered in the prime of his life, to see a bunch of old guys trying to play a new version of Pantera 20+ years later does seem weird. I'm not some Pantera homer...I like them but honestly they wouldn't crack the top 40 of my favorite metal bands, but what they are doing isnt irreverent or disrespectful to the legacy or a fuck you to the fans. They are doing their job....the thing that we all either do now or hope to do...make money making music


Original members =/= most well known lineup; you can say "so-in-so" doesn't count, but that doesn't make it so.

But, on the other hand, it doesn't matter. There are plenty of bands touring with zero original members.

Where this goes wrong is that Dime and Vinnie, even though they were only 50% of the band, they were more like 80% of the creative force in the band, if not more. So, this isn't like Yes touring with no original members, this would be like if Ringo decided to tour as "The Beatles." It's just one of those things that makes anyone in the know shrug. Or if Metallica toured with Kirk and Trujillo - I don't think people would be that upset about the fact that neither were original members as much as it would just be silly to call it "Metallica" without Hetfield.

But yeah, people will definitely go see this, just not anyone who cares at all. It'd probably end up being either a really fun show or a complete trainwreck, and that's probably all hinging on whether Phil stays in a good mood or not.


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## ShredmasterD (Jul 15, 2022)

what do i want for lunch...?


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 15, 2022)

This thread really just serves as another area for the usual Pantera haters to continue bashing away. 

One thing I find equally as shitty as Phil’s dumbass racist comments is trashing on Phil for his addiction. The “leave no room for redemption” approach modern society has taken isn’t going to get anyone anywhere. 

The dude cleaned up his act, made apologies, donated money to some charities and it doesn’t matter. I really don’t believe we’re ever going to move forward with some of the actual issues in this country if someone fucks up and spend the rest of their lives held to their past mistakes, no matter how far removed from them they are. 

Might as well just keep everyone in jail, fuck redemption, fuck forgiveness.


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## ShredmasterD (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This thread really just serves as another area for the usual Pantera haters to continue bashing away.
> 
> One thing I find equally as shitty as Phil’s dumbass racist comments is trashing on Phil for his addiction. The “leave no room for redemption” approach modern society has taken isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.
> 
> ...


you're not wrong


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

Thank you for quoting me because some seem to want to attribute things to me that are not in line with what I said...which is Pantera basically equals Dime. Very few bands have that one iconic member without whom it just doesn't seem right. NOW...that said, I can't get mad at the remaining members because what weight is placed on the remaining members as being able to carry the torch and the band name is different from person to person and there is no mathematical equation or metric that can be universally applied to say...ok now you are officially NOT that band anymore. It depends on the band and the fans and the contribution of the present or departed members.

All I am saying is that I can't force Rex to see things from my perspective and then hate on him if he doesn't. I saw Dokken with all original members back in the heyday and I saw Dokken when it was just Don struggling to sing and some guitarist I never heard of. Do I felt like I saw Dokken a second time?....meh....not really but I'm not mad at anyone involved and I'm not going to accuse them of a cash grab even though the band broke up because of money and drug problems which I can never forgive apparently.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

ShredmasterD said:


> what do i want for lunch...?


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## ShredmasterD (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


>


that freaks me out. how'd you know?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

Flappydoodle said:


> I'm curious to see whether he can still sing the old stuff like he used to.


LOL that's adorable!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> See that's what the problem is. They are touring with only 50% of the original members (Terry Glaze doesn't count) which puts them at an equal or higher percentage of original members than some other huge bands. But Pantera is one of only a half handful (not even full handful) where one member (Dime) is soooo iconic that the band does not seem to be capable of having an identity apart from him. It can have viable musical life...just will always lack that identity. Plus since we never saw Dime age because he was murdered in the prime of his life, to see a bunch of old guys trying to play a new version of Pantera 20+ years later does seem weird. I'm not some Pantera homer...I like them but honestly they wouldn't crack the top 40 of my favorite metal bands, but what they are doing isnt irreverent or disrespectful to the legacy or a fuck you to the fans. They are doing their job....the thing that we all either do now or hope to do...make money making music


25%. Terry does count. Let's be real: The music was written by a member that is dead, so who cares if it was 75%, this is still a total farce.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

ChrisRushing said:


> I'll admit I'm not up to date on the latest band drama but did Dime or Vinnie ever get right with Phil before their deaths? This just seems like something they would not have endorsed. Maybe I missed something.
> Having said that, they should go after somebody like Vogg from Decapitated and call this thing a "Tribute". The last thing I want to hear is 10,000 Zakk Wylde pinch harmonics ruining Pantera songs. Look at how bad he played Black Sabbath songs touring with Ozzy.
> Also Phil was HORRIBLE on some of the later tours. They won't get my money and I am a huge fan.


I believe before Dime's death, Phil said something like Dime needed his ass beat or something along those lines, only for him to get shot to death. The killer apparently did so because it was supposedly Dime and Vinnie's fault they weren't together still. There is no way that Vinnie ever would have made up with Phil.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This thread really just serves as another area for the usual Pantera haters to continue bashing away.
> 
> One thing I find equally as shitty as Phil’s dumbass racist comments is trashing on Phil for his addiction. The “leave no room for redemption” approach modern society has taken isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.
> 
> ...


Nobody said you cant seek redemption for being a drugged up mess. You just need to make sure your name is Demi Lovato.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> When I was a kid out riding my bike I got hit by a car. It was pretty bad. 8 hours of surgery. This is a true story. If it wasn't for my dad inviting me out to go bike riding I never would have been out there to get hit by that car. I've never been able to forgive my dad for creating that situation (that part of the story isn't true because it just sounds ridiculous).


To quote Jazzy, you're reaching really hard, bro. What the fuck are you babbling about?


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

Everyone from Rita to people on this board say Phil is responsible for Dime’s death because Dime wouldnt have even been on that shitty little stage were it not for Phil breaking up the band. Sorry but my analogy is spot on.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This thread really just serves as another area for the usual Pantera haters to continue bashing away.
> 
> One thing I find equally as shitty as Phil’s dumbass racist comments is trashing on Phil for his addiction. The “leave no room for redemption” approach modern society has taken isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.
> 
> ...


Nope..fuck outta here with that shit.
He still exhibits the same behavior. And you definitely don't spend a lifetime dropping N bombs and yelling White Power at gigs to only apologize when it gets blown up and then be forgiven. Far too many people have died, and will die with those being the last words they hear for me to go "Oh..well Mr. Jackass said he's sorry so everyone should get over it"
Spare me with that tired bullshit about what we move forward with when that issue doesn't come down on your head like it does for others on a daily basis.
I'll say it all day long. Phil's a piece of shit and that will never change for me because his actions have had severe consequences and you don't just "sorry" that away. Fuck Phil.


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## DiezelMonster (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This thread really just serves as another area for the usual Pantera haters to continue bashing away.
> 
> One thing I find equally as shitty as Phil’s dumbass racist comments is trashing on Phil for his addiction. The “leave no room for redemption” approach modern society has taken isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.
> 
> ...


It's like all these guys on this forum that have such a deep burning hate for Pantera and who they are just like to get together and circle jerk each other here. it's fucking comical the time they spend hating them and professing it.
I 100% agree with you Drew.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 15, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Nope..fuck outta here with that shit.
> He still exhibits the same behavior. And you definitely don't spend a lifetime dropping N bombs and yelling White Power at gigs to only apologize when it gets blown up and then be forgiven. Far too many people have died, and will die with those being the last words they hear for me to go "Oh..well Mr. Jackass said he's sorry so everyone should get over it"
> Spare me with that tired bullshit about what we move forward with when that issue doesn't come down on your head like it does for others on a daily basis.
> I'll say it all day long. Phil's a piece of shit and that will never change for me because his actions have had severe consequences and you don't just "sorry" that away. Fuck Phil.



Cool, just fuck everyone. This planet’s never going to get any better, fucking burn it down.

Can’t say I ever once heard the N-bomb out of that dude’s mouth, but have at it.

I’d think if anyone could understand what it’s like to be held down by their neck regardless of their actions, it’d be those who have had it happen unwillingly and without just reason, but fuck it.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This planet’s never going to get any better


Especially with racist idiots roaming the planet


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## Werecow (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Everyone from Rita to people on this board say Phil is responsible for Dime’s death because Dime wouldnt have even been on that shitty little stage were it not for Phil breaking up the band. Sorry but my analogy is spot on.


I don't blame him in that regard, but he did say this in the weeks before Dimebag's death https://blabbermouth.net/news/philip-anselmo-dimebag-darrell-deserves-to-be-beaten-severely 
That "Dimebag Darrell Deserves To Be Beaten Severely" quote was on the front cover of the magazine here in the couple weeks before his death, and was still on the shelves afterwards.

Just to be clear, Far Beyond Driven is one of my favourite albums. I Ioved Pantera for years. I saw them live as a kid, but thought Phil was a dick even then. One of my memories of it was the UK crowd just standing there openly laughing at him, as he came on stage before the gig started with a weird tough guy routine.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 15, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Especially with racist idiots roaming the planet



That I absolutely don’t disagree with. 

What I disagree with is never letting that past leave them despite their attempts to do better. That’s just setting an example for all the other toothless fucking cunts to double down on their behavior because then it becomes some kind of personality they can attach themselves too, like the current “patriots”. 

Overall, I’m not a fan of Phil’s personality now or back in the 90’s, I don’t do the tough guy macho shit, so it’s not some fanboy take. From what I’ve seen of him since he screamed ”white power” like a fucking idiot at Dimebash, he’s done all he can to make good on it and owned up to his mistakes. 

If I held everyone in my life accountable to mistakes they made in their past, I’d have a pretty fucking lonely life and if I did it to myself I’d have shot myself in the fucking head by now.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

Phil also said Mustaine deserved to get his ass kicked for stating that Dime ripped off Mustaine’s riffs. If that resulted in Mustaine getting shot by a deranged gunman then I would say he should have foreseen this again and be careful what he says moving forward. Again im not a big pantera fan in fact when I first heard them I hated them and Phils image and attitude was part of that…still is. But I cannot crucify someone for saying that. I guarantee there are people here who not only said someone deserved to get their ass kicked they actually kicked someones ass. Has no one here ever gotten in a fight?


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## Giest (Jul 15, 2022)

I'm hearing a lot of input saying that this is a cash grab, which I am inclined to agree with. The most talented and cohesive members of the band are gone, and it's not like they were the problem all along- which is something worth noting.

I do like the idea of ZW playing Dime's material, I mean if we're not getting a Dime hologram because every single margin is getting beat out of a dead horse that's not such a raw deal. He was close to Dime and has the skills, that's fair. The rest of it seems contrived and a misappropriation of the sentiments Dime and Vinny had for their Pantera members, though.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> That I absolutely don’t disagree with.
> 
> What I disagree with is never letting that past leave them despite their attempts to do better. That’s just setting an example for all the other toothless fucking cunts to double down on their behavior because then it becomes some kind of personality they can attach themselves too, like the current “patriots”.
> 
> ...


Ain't trying to hear it. He kissed ass to save his paycheck. Racists will do that because it suits them to blend in and protect themselves. You can afford to be casual about it. I can't help but hope there wasn't a non-white person in that crowd, especially a black person...and to hear that when there's already hesitation about going to metal shows as it is.
It ain't a joke. People are STILL dying from that kind of shit. I don't give a damn how remorseful a racist claims to be. When it comes out of his mouth, it's literally a life or death decision whether or not to believe him. I choose not to because he's proven to make piss poor decisions and be a shit person.
I don't give a fuck if he has changed his ways. I won't believe him, and never will, because to believe such a person can often lead to bad things happening.


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## Werecow (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Phil also said Mustaine deserved to get his ass kicked for stating that Dime ripped off Mustaine’s riffs. If that resulted in Mustaine getting shot by a deranged gunman then I would say he should have foreseen this again and be careful what he says moving forward. Again im not a big pantera fan in fact when I first heard them I hated them and Phils image and attitude was part of that…still is. But I cannot crucify someone for saying that. I guarantee there are people here who not only said someone deserved to get their ass kicked they actually kicked someones ass. Has no one here ever gotten in a fight?


Threatening extreme violence through the press and saying someone generally deserves it, when knowing that will be "the quote" is a fucking terrible thing to do. He must have known the influence that could have had on anyone reading it. I'm not saying it was a direct cause, but it's possible coming from anyone with a large public following. He'd had a long enough career in front of the media at that point to know the possible ramifications.


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## cardinal (Jul 15, 2022)

Having Zakk on board gives this some credibility. Wish they'd boot Phil and just do a tribute with Zakk and Rex.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

cardinal said:


> Having Zakk on board gives this some credibility. Wish they'd boot Phil and just do a tribute with Zakk and Rex.


Honestly if it were some star studded musician thing that was a tribute to Pantera I think that'd be awesome. Musicians who are friends and fans of the band, they could tell stories about the band and whatnot, play music, that whole thing. It'd be awesome to see that happen as I don't think Vinnie got the real sendup he deserves.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

Btw does this mean the Anselmo project with Kerry King is on hold? O god I fucked up. i’m getting outta here.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Btw does this mean the Anselmo project with Kerry King is on hold? O god I fucked up. i’m getting outta here.


You just never quit do you?


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## Werecow (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Btw does this mean the Anselmo project with Kerry King is on hold? O god I fucked up. i’m getting outta here.


This thread is going to at least 20 pages now


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

Just a reminder: everyone is biased, even the person reading this comment. Regardless of what you are biased about.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

cardinal said:


> Having Zakk on board gives this some credibility. Wish they'd boot Phil and just do a tribute with Zakk and Rex.


A tribute, not being touted as a reunion, with a competent singer might actually be somewhat intriguing. What pisses me off, from an artistic standpoint, is that Phil had a great voice prior to A Vulgar Display of Power. He fucked all of that away to sound "hardcore" or "extreme." Now he can barely talk. Serves him right.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Honestly if it were some star studded musician thing that was a tribute to Pantera I think that'd be awesome. Musicians who are friends and fans of the band, they could tell stories about the band and whatnot, play music, that whole thing. It'd be awesome to see that happen as I don't think Vinnie got the real sendup he deserves.


I could agree with that. I think it'd require possibly Randy Blythe for the post CFH stuff, with someone else handling anything up to and including CFH.


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## mmr007 (Jul 15, 2022)

And dont forget George Benson. I insist he be included in the tribute.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 15, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> And dont forget George Benson. I insist he be included in the tribute.


Instructions unclear...show now sponsored by Uncle Ben's rice


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> Cool, just fuck everyone. This planet’s never going to get any better, fucking burn it down.
> 
> Can’t say I ever once heard the N-bomb out of that dude’s mouth, but have at it.
> 
> I’d think if anyone could understand what it’s like to be held down by their neck regardless of their actions, it’d be those who have had it happen unwillingly and without just reason, but fuck it.



Give it a click over at YouTube and you can hear for yourself what Phil is up to...


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## Ralyks (Jul 15, 2022)

Ok, I'm just gonna be the asshole that says I never got to experience these songs live and I would very much like to. Sorry not sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Also, Rita is totally on board with this. Take that as you will.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 15, 2022)

Ralyks said:


> Ok, I'm just gonna be the asshole that says I never got to experience these songs live and I would very much like to. Sorry not sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Also, Rita is totally on board with this. Take that as you will.


She'd sell her soul at this point to be able to make a regular chunk of change off of Dime's legacy. She's prostituting her dead ex boyfriend because she's too much of a deadbeat to get a regular job. What a schlub.


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## Ralyks (Jul 15, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> She'd sell her soul at this point to be able to make a regular chunk of change off of Dime's legacy. She's prostituting her dead ex boyfriend because she's too much of a deadbeat to get a regular job. What a schlub.


Hence why I said take it as you will, because you're not wrong.


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## cardinal (Jul 15, 2022)

Ugh I kinda want to go to one of these shows to see Zakk pay his tribute. That sounds pretty damn cool to me.


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## mikernaut (Jul 15, 2022)

I woulda gave Wes Hauch a call.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 15, 2022)

mikernaut said:


> I woulda gave Wes Hauch a call.


Why?


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 15, 2022)

Related: They call/response with phil and dime at the end of cemetery gates was playing once with my wife in the car. She had had enough of that noise and it was quite funny.


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## MetalDaze (Jul 15, 2022)

Let’s remember that the average metal head just wants to hear the songs and go home with a Pantera shirt from the show.

We are not average around here


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 15, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Why?


Why I would: Dude is crazy talented and is a well-known Dimebag fanboy. Would honestly put Zakk to shame
Why I wouldn't: He's gonna be forever known as the guy who played in Scabtera.


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## Spinedriver (Jul 15, 2022)

Thing is, if it _was_ an assortment of musicians getting together to pay tribute in a small tour, that's one thing. However, THIS is being touted as a 'Pantera reunion', implying that the band will be reforming, even though the two founding members are dead. It'd be like Ringo Starr putting out a press release saying that the Beatles are going to do a reunion tour. 

This is nothing more than an attempt to cash in on the name because he can. If he's so in love with the material, just do what Udo Dirkschnieder does and play Pantera songs (or Accept songs in Udo's case) under his own name. If he can't make money that way, then it's obvious that people went to see Pantera because of Dime & Vinnie Paul, not him.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 15, 2022)

Spinedriver said:


> . If he's so in love with the material, just do what Udo Dirkschnieder does and play Pantera songs (or Accept songs in Udo's case) under his own name. If he can't make money that way, then it's obvious that people went to see Pantera because of Dime & Vinnie Paul, not him.



He did. It was his solo band and they called it "A Vulgar Display of Pantera".


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## Ralyks (Jul 15, 2022)

MetalDaze said:


> Let’s remember that the average metal head just wants to hear the songs and go home with a Pantera shirt from the show.
> 
> We are not average around here


I mean, I'm not average and I probably won't get a shirt, but yeah, that's my summary. I want to fuck shit up in the pit to Fucking Hostile and hope Zakk knows how to play Floods (best guitar solo ever, fight me).


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## jaxadam (Jul 15, 2022)

He’ll always be Diamond Darrell to me.


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## Riffer (Jul 15, 2022)

A buddy of mine also brought up the fact that even though Zakk is who he is, he’s fundamentally a different type of player than Dime was. Dime was really on point live with his solos. I’ve never really seen a live video of Dime where he isn’t nailing the solos like the record or better. All while completely trashed off black tooth grins. 

Zakk, while a legend in his own right, is a little sloppy to be pulling off an entire set of Dimes solos I think. I wonder how accurate Zakk will play these songs to be honest. Or will it have a pinch harmonic every 5 notes type of vibe. 

I’ve only ever seen him play I’m Broken (with Phil and Rex actually) and while the solo is close. His timing on a few spots is off if we are refenceing how Dime did it on the album and live. And that solo is probably one of the “easier” ones Dime had.


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## Veldar (Jul 15, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This thread really just serves as another area for the usual Pantera haters to continue bashing away.
> 
> One thing I find equally as shitty as Phil’s dumbass racist comments is trashing on Phil for his addiction. The “leave no room for redemption” approach modern society has taken isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.
> 
> ...


Ahh yes he gave some money to charities so we now must let him do whatever he wants with no critique.


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## CanserDYI (Jul 15, 2022)




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## Protestheriphery (Jul 15, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's Official: PANTERA's Surviving Members To Embark On Reunion Tour In 2023
> 
> 
> According to Billboard, PANTERA's surviving members will embark on a reunion tour in 2023. Singer Philip Anselmo and bassist Rex Brown have signed with Artist Group International to book their North American dates. Dennis Arfa and Peter Pappalardo will be the responsible agents. "We are thrilled...
> ...


Or Down II: Even Lower (as far as cash grabs go). Phil will attempt to strain through his lines, then just give up halfway through. All night, he'll just be going "Fuckin sing It!". "Lemme hear ya!". "What is it?". "C'mon!". "Louder!"


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## cardinal (Jul 15, 2022)

Ralyks said:


> I mean, I'm not average and I probably won't get a shirt, but yeah, that's my summary. I want to fuck shit up in the pit to Fucking Hostile and hope Zakk knows how to play Floods (best guitar solo ever, fight me).


I'm in the same boat. If Zakk can throw down the song Domination, I think I'll have had my money's worth from the show.


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## coreysMonster (Jul 16, 2022)

MetalDaze said:


> Let’s remember that the average metal head just wants to hear the songs and go home with a Pantera shirt from the show.
> 
> We are not average around here


Hell yeah brother, we're below average.


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## MFB (Jul 16, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Why I would: Dude is crazy talented and is a well-known Dimebag fanboy. Would honestly put Zakk to shame
> Why I wouldn't: He's gonna be forever known as the guy who played in Scabtera.





Riffer said:


> A buddy of mine also brought up the fact that even though Zakk is who he is, he’s fundamentally a different type of player than Dime was. Dime was really on point live with his solos. I’ve never really seen a live video of Dime where he isn’t nailing the solos like the record or better. All while completely trashed off black tooth grins.
> 
> Zakk, while a legend in his own right, is a little sloppy to be pulling off an entire set of Dimes solos I think. I wonder how accurate Zakk will play these songs to be honest. Or will it have a pinch harmonic every 5 notes type of vibe.
> 
> I’ve only ever seen him play I’m Broken (with Phil and Rex actually) and while the solo is close. His timing on a few spots is off if we are refenceing how Dime did it on the album and live. And that solo is probably one of the “easier” ones Dime had.



That's why I was thinking of Gina, I remember seeing this video after a Baroness rig rundown and had no clue who she was but she breaks out Domination on a Tele with no problem.


----------



## p0ke (Jul 16, 2022)

Cashgrab, yes, but if they end up coming to Finland I'll be there for sure. Because just hearing properly executed Pantera songs live is awesome.
Not really sure about the lineup though, Zakk's a totally different player like someone pointed out, but maybe he's good enough to imitate Dime's style... What I'm more worried about is Phil's voice, he sounds really bad on some of the videos I've seen.

Also IMO they should've called it The Remains of Pantera or something.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 16, 2022)

p0ke said:


> Also IMO they should've called it The Remains of Pantera or something.


Lmao that sounds bleak as fuck


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 16, 2022)

MFB said:


> That's why I was thinking of Gina, I remember seeing this video after a Baroness rig rundown and had no clue who she was but she breaks out Domination on a Tele with no problem.



I had a friend bring her up. Had no clue why.
...Now I see why.


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## littlebadboy (Jul 16, 2022)

I vote Ola Englund to be the guitarist.


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## jaxadam (Jul 16, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> I vote Ola Englund to be the guitarist.



This would be amazing.


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## Accoun (Jul 16, 2022)

I'm actually wonder if he would agree, considering that when he debunked the "will Solar be the one to make new Dimebag guitars?!?!?1" saying that it wouldn't feel right.


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## Zer01 (Jul 16, 2022)

Five Finger Death Punch will be so happy.


----------



## manu80 (Jul 16, 2022)

a sober Zakk close to Anselmo during a year ? wow....
i agree with the fact that calling it a Reunion is totally absurd still...


----------



## fps (Jul 16, 2022)

It's all been said already. I agree with what everyone's saying.

But it's happening. 

If they want it to feel a little better, maybe they can actually get Dime's old amps and Vinnie's old drum kit up there. That would be a respectable thing to do.


----------



## Ralyks (Jul 16, 2022)

MFB said:


> That's why I was thinking of Gina, I remember seeing this video after a Baroness rig rundown and had no clue who she was but she breaks out Domination on a Tele with no problem.



That's because Gina is the best and I absolutely adore her. This was confirmed between Gold & Grey, and her appearance on Two Minutes to Midnight and some of their bedroom covers. Speaking of which....



If any further evidence was needed that she can nail Dimebags playing.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 16, 2022)

NGL I'd rather seee Gwarsenio Hall + Lzzy Hale over Phil


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 16, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> NGL I'd rather seee Gwarsenio Hall + Lzzy Hale over Phil


I'd rather see ICP commentate a fat chick nude jello wrestling match than this shit. At least that is not hiding the fact it is absurd as shit and is meant to be such. This is feeding us a damn TV dinner and calling it gourmet.


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## Ralyks (Jul 16, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> NGL I'd rather seee Gwarsenio Hall + Lzzy Hale over Phil


Gwarsenio, hell yes. Lzzy...... I don't know why but she has ALWAYS rubbed me the wrong way.


----------



## Legion (Jul 16, 2022)

NGL I'm just here wishing the world would just move the fuck on from Pantera....


BRING ON THE DOWNVOTES


wait 


this ain't reddit


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 16, 2022)

Legion said:


> NGL I'm just here wishing the world would just move the fuck on from Pantera....
> 
> 
> BRING ON THE DOWNVOTES
> ...


That WAS pretty much Vinnie's mindset. That + him hating Anselmo and Rex was why a Pantera reunion never happened.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 16, 2022)

Pantera is synonymous with played out, frankly.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 16, 2022)

Pantera has ironically become just like the Hillbilly Swastika (aka the Confederate flag) them and their fans love so much.

It's over...it's done..you lost. It's not coming back. Let it fucking go.


----------



## Legion (Jul 16, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Pantera has ironically become just like the Hillbilly Swastika (aka the Confederate flag) them and their fans love so much.
> 
> It's over...it's done..you lost. It's not coming back. Let it fucking go.



This is my stance. I'm....wary of bringing it up on the internet because it's like painting a target on my back for people who'll attack me for being a "liberal pussy" or something. Sigh.


----------



## jaxadam (Jul 16, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Pantera has ironically become just like the Hillbilly Swastika (aka the Confederate flag) them and their fans love so much.
> 
> It's over...it's done..you lost. It's not coming back. Let it fucking go.



Don’t you mean Black Label Society? I guess they’re sticking to the theme by using a guy who played a Confederate flag Les Paul, and was far worse of a guitar player and a drunk anyway.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 16, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Don’t you mean Black Label Society? I guess they’re sticking to the theme by using a guy who played a Confederate flag Les Paul, and was far worse of a guitar player and a drunk anyway.


Welp...he's alive, so automatically he's playing better than Dime is these days.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 16, 2022)

That is more beer bottle caps than confederate flag at that point. Kind of silly given that he is from New Jersey, thought it likely has to do with his fetishism of aping southern rock bands.


----------



## MFB (Jul 16, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> That is more beer bottle caps than confederate flag at that point. Kind of silly given that he is from New Jersey, thought it likely has to do with his fetishism of aping southern rock bands.



Yeah, that thing is so work at this point all I see is beer caps and not the Confederate Flag.

The Confederate Flag was however Dime's coolest Razorback, which is a shame.

Edit: correction, not a Razorback, but still cool.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 16, 2022)

It's funny that kids nowadays dislike Dime. They didn't grow up with him and all they see is the Hillbilly Swastika on all his stuff so they have the wrong opinion about him. It's a shame.


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## mmr007 (Jul 16, 2022)

Wait….what?


----------



## jaxadam (Jul 16, 2022)

It’s funny that kids back then loved Zakk. They grew up with him and all they saw was the Confederate flag on his stuff so they gave him a free pass because they liked his music, even though he’s a terrible guitar player. It’s a shame.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 16, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> It's funny that kids nowadays dislike Dime. They didn't grow up with him and all they see is the Hillbilly Swastika on all his stuff so they have the wrong opinion about him. It's a shame.



I just don't think Dime or Pantera are that special if you didn't grow up with them. I did. I really liked Pantera then, and I still listen now, and I remember tons of funny interviews and columns that Dime and Vinnie had in various magazines. 

But that was sooooooo long ago. Music and guitar is just in a fairly different place now, and I don't even think you can get any back issues, nor would most folks want to, to see who those guys were.


----------



## WarMachine (Jul 16, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> It’s funny that kids back then loved Zakk. They grew up with him and all they saw was the Confederate flag on his stuff so they gave him a free pass because they liked his music, even though he’s a terrible guitar player. It’s a shame.


Zakk was one of the main reasons i picked up guitar as a teenager. He's fucking awesome. To say he's a terrible guitar player is horseshit. And this is coming from me *not *being the fanboy i used to be. He took a dive off the deep end on his albums after Mafia for sure, it's the same recycled pentatonic scales and all. I get that for sure. And i'll be the first to say that that does suck. But he's a beast of a player, he just needs to dip back into the No More Tears era. His leads became more of a copy/paste of a solo vs the actual musical feel and sound he had long ago.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 16, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> It’s funny that kids back then loved Zakk. They grew up with him and all they saw was the Confederate flag on his stuff so they gave him a free pass because they liked his music, even though he’s a terrible guitar player. It’s a shame.


Girl bye.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 16, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> It’s funny that kids back then loved Zakk. They grew up with him and all they saw was the Confederate flag on his stuff so they gave him a free pass because they liked his music, even though he’s a terrible guitar player. It’s a shame.


"terrible guitar player" lol


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 16, 2022)

WarMachine said:


> Zakk was one of the main reasons i picked up guitar as a teenager. He's fucking awesome. To say he's a terrible guitar player is horseshit. And this is coming from me *not *being the fanboy i used to be. He took a dive off the deep end on his albums after Mafia for sure, it's the same recycled pentatonic scales and all. I get that for sure. And i'll be the first to say that that does suck. But he's a beast of a player, he just needs to dip back into the No More Tears era. His leads became more of a copy/paste of a solo vs the actual musical feel and sound he had long ago.


His solos are copypastas of previous solos, but with less enthusiasm.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 16, 2022)




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## WarMachine (Jul 16, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> View attachment 110868


This is why there shouldn't BE a "reunion". Poor choice of words by media im sure, "tribute" would be better suited. But yeah, lets go see Van Halen next year....nope nope nope. No Eddie, no VH. No Dime and Vinnie, no Pantera. Period.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 16, 2022)

WarMachine said:


> This is why there shouldn't BE a "reunion". Poor choice of words by media im sure, "tribute" would be better suited. But yeah, lets go see Van Halen next year....nope nope nope. No Eddie, no VH. No Dime and Vinnie, no Pantera. Period.


The media buying into this is legitimizing it. It is sickening. Get ready for KISS 2.0, Van Halen sans Eddie, and the rest of these god awful tribute bands parading as the real thiing.


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## Legion (Jul 16, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> It's funny that kids nowadays dislike Dime. They didn't grow up with him and all they see is the Hillbilly Swastika on all his stuff so they have the wrong opinion about him. It's a shame.


I grew up with him.

Never had a problm with Dime. Then I came to America. Found myself a few times on the shit end of the racism stick. Then I found out what the confederate flag meant. I was pretty heartbroken, but like didnt think about it too much. I'd still blast the shit outta I'm Broken all day long.

Then the infamous Dimebash incident happened.

Turned the whole thing on its head.

I find it hard to dissociate now. Yeah, it really is a shame.

I've really wished/tried hard to be able to do the separate-the-art-from-the-artist thing, never could.


EDIT: now I see you were (possibly) being sarcastic. Sorry brother, I am slightly drunk. Apologies.


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## WarMachine (Jul 17, 2022)

Legion said:


> I grew up with him.
> 
> Never had a problm with Dime. Then I came to America. Found myself a few times on the shit end of the racism stick. Then I found out what the confederate flag meant. I was pretty heartbroken, but like didnt think about it too much. I'd still blast the shit outta I'm Broken all day long.
> 
> ...



*NOT*


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## STRHelvete (Jul 17, 2022)

Legion said:


> I grew up with him.
> 
> Never had a problm with Dime. Then I came to America. Found myself a few times on the shit end of the racism stick. Then I found out what the confederate flag meant. I was pretty heartbroken, but like didnt think about it too much. I'd still blast the shit outta I'm Broken all day long.
> 
> ...


Nah..I take into consideration that it was a different time. Dime was one of the most lovable dudes in metal and I still have never heard anything about him being racist. Lots of people who rep the Hillbilly Swastika don't associate it with racism. Stupid yes, but lots of those people are nice. Sure they may be a bit ignorant but they aren't hateful. It's all about perspective. I don't equate Dime with Phuckhead Phil...Phuckhead is his own thing and he's a racist piece of shit.
Kids never got to experience Dime when he was alive. All they see is some southern white dude with a Hillbilly Swastika everywhere and his band member screaming white power and all this shit. 
Newer generations have more of a zero tolerance thing, which I understand but one does need to consider the era this was and the person in question.


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## littlebadboy (Jul 17, 2022)

Are they coming back like this?



Still voting for Ola as guitarist. He's a serious Pantera/Dimebag fan.


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## Legion (Jul 17, 2022)

WarMachine said:


> *NOT*


I cannot tell if you're joking


----------



## WarMachine (Jul 17, 2022)

Legion said:


> I cannot tell if you're joking


I am


----------



## Legion (Jul 17, 2022)

WarMachine said:


> I am


Hah.


I guess it's time to get my drunk ass to bed...


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> Are they coming back like this?
> 
> 
> 
> Still voting for Ola as guitarist. He's a serious Pantera/Dimebag fan.



I'd prefer to listen to Glamtera than silly ass try hard bullshit post Vulgar.


----------



## BenjaminW (Jul 17, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Do we blame the assassination of John Lennon on mentally ill Chapman or where it belongs on Paul McCartney because if the Beatles had stayed together Lennon would have been on a big protected stage at that place and time instead on a street corner outside his apartment.


I'm pretty sure that Mark David Chapman's reason or at least a very big reason of why he killed John was because of the "more popular than Jesus" comment and not so much the Beatles breaking up, but still a fair point nonetheless.


----------



## Andromalia (Jul 17, 2022)

I wasted a significant amount of my life wishes wishing that Pantera had a different singer, because Phil is what kept me off the band at the time, really. Pantera was the Abott brothers, and to me even moreso Vinnie than Dime. Rex, like a lot of 90es bass players, was unimportant in the scheme of things.
All things being equal, it's kind of a Ringo+George tour calling themselves "the Beatles". And they fly circles around Phil+Rex in terms of artistic ability.


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## Sammy J (Jul 17, 2022)

Ola or Vogg for guitar duties would’ve been nice. But it’ll be Wylde due to the connection.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 17, 2022)

Plot twist..the drummer will be Mike Smith from Suffocation, bassist will be Bootsy Collins and the guitarist will be Tosin Abasi, and the entire show will just be them standing around Phil staring at him like


----------



## bracky (Jul 17, 2022)

I never got to the Pantera. I did see Phil’s band play on the Slayer tour and they were amazing. I for one am looking forward to this.


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 17, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> LOL that's adorable!


Is there any footage of him singing the old stuff? I know his voice has had its ups and downs. He speaks really slowly now, lol. But you never know - he might be practicing and building back up for the reunion tour. I will try to be optimistic.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

Flappydoodle said:


> Is there any footage of him singing the old stuff? I know his voice has had its ups and downs. He speaks really slowly now, lol. But you never know - he might be practicing and building back up for the reunion tour. I will try to be optimistic.


Bro, if you think Paul Stanley has been rough since 2007, you're going to be shocked by how poorly Cemetery Gates sounds.


----------



## xzacx (Jul 17, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Nah..I take into consideration that it was a different time. Dime was one of the most lovable dudes in metal and I still have never heard anything about him being racist. Lots of people who rep the Hillbilly Swastika don't associate it with racism. Stupid yes, but lots of those people are nice. Sure they may be a bit ignorant but they aren't hateful. It's all about perspective. I don't equate Dime with Phuckhead Phil...Phuckhead is his own thing and he's a racist piece of shit.
> Kids never got to experience Dime when he was alive. All they see is some southern white dude with a Hillbilly Swastika everywhere and his band member screaming white power and all this shit.
> Newer generations have more of a zero tolerance thing, which I understand but one does need to consider the era this was and the person in question.


I don’t totally disagree about some people not seeing the confederate flag as racist symbolism, but Phil’s outward antics didn’t start at Dimebash—there are on-stage videos dating back decades of him saying blatant racist stuff that you can easily find. So at very best, Dime was complacent with that while displaying his own. That’s not a great look and makes it hard for me to suspend disbelief. I didn’t hate Pantera initially but once I caught wind of that stuff it really ruined them for me. It’s not like someone had a temporary transgression and made a mistake. This was sustained shitbag behavior that imo is part of who the band is. So while it’s possible to admit your mistake, grow, and be forgiven, it’s hard for me to celebrate the exact era this behavior was from.


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## Thaeon (Jul 17, 2022)

I have a few issues with this. Dime is a legend. Yes. He embodied the band. Loved that band from beginning to end. He and Vinnie waited for literal YEARS for Rex and Phil to want to come back. And at the end of Dime’s life, they weren’t even talking. That’s why Damageplan happened. Which to me, was a revitalizing of Dime’s playing over what he did in Pantera. It’s kind of a slap in the face of their memory to be doing a reunion now that they’re dead while when they were alive they wouldn’t even talk to them like adults. Also, given time and space from all of it, that band was some seriously awful thinly veiled racism and a lot of “look at my big alpha energy”. From Phil’s antics to some of the imagery on Dime’s guitars. Going back to it and giving it the mental space it never really deserved is pretty gross. I wish Dime and Vinnie had played in a different band so that all of that Confederate BS could have never been associated with them.


----------



## Giest (Jul 17, 2022)

You guys do realize africans were treated as third class citizens, far below women, all over the USA before and after the civil war right lol? If you think the divide was about racism you're dead wrong, that's practically the one thing everyone back then agreed on- what they didn't agree on was how to monetize it and which group with power would do so.

You guys are acting like he had a hammer and sickle on his guitar or something, which ironically is in vogue _now_. Calm down.


----------



## Thaeon (Jul 17, 2022)

xzacx said:


> I don’t totally disagree about some people not seeing the confederate flag as racist symbolism, but Phil’s outward antics didn’t start at Dimebash—there are on-stage videos dating back decades of him saying blatant racist stuff that you can easily find. So at very best, Dime was complacent with that while displaying his own. That’s not a great look and makes it hard for me to suspend disbelief. I didn’t hate Pantera initially but once I caught wind of that stuff it really ruined them for me. It’s not like someone had a temporary transgression and made a mistake. This was sustained shitbag behavior that imo is part of who the band is. So while it’s possible to admit your mistake, grow, and be forgiven, it’s hard for me to celebrate the exact era this behavior was from.


Silence is consent in my estimation here. And people making the argument that it’s from an era where it was accepted is an excuse. The rebel flag is and always has been offensive to African Americans. Just because white culture caught up and is now on board with that decades later doesn’t excuse poor past behavior. And not everyone reacting to it with rejection is a ‘kid’. I’m 42. I was there for all of it and watched the band explode. When I first heard them VDoP was just out. And I’ve always thought rebel flags were in poor taste after I learned what they were. Hanging on to them as a cultural thing or as a ‘state’s rights’ symbol is the height of OG Snowflake. You lost the war. Your country decided as a majority what should happen. You can state your piece. But using imagery that is offensive to entire groups of your population is just bad form and ineffective. Imagine people in Germany walking around wearing swastikas as a protest about areas of Germany that were part of east Germany having provincial sovereignty. Would that be acceptable or would it be taken as Nazi support? Don’t pretend you don’t know, and don’t pretend it’s not the same. It is.


----------



## Thaeon (Jul 17, 2022)

Giest said:


> You guys do realize africans were treated as third class citizens, far below women, all over the USA before and after the civil war right lol? If you think the divide was about racism you're dead wrong, that's practically the one thing everyone back then agreed on- what they didn't agree on was how to monetize it and which group with power would do so.
> 
> You guys are acting like he had a hammer and sickle on his guitar or something, which ironically is in vogue _now_. Calm down.


The fact that African Americans are still treated poorly a hundred and sixty years later is reason enough to not use the god damn flag. If you want a symbol for states rights get a new one that doesn’t further alienate an already horribly alienated minority group.


----------



## Thaeon (Jul 17, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> We all have rights to opinions but I guess it also makes sense to wait and see what comes of it and what they do with it. Alice in Chains is a band again with only half its original members. Alice in Chains. Without Layne. And it works. Was it an AIC cash grab because the solo thing didnt pan out? I dont think so. Pantera without dimebag seems very very odd but we shouldn’t rush to immediately call it disingenuous



This is a poor example considering Jerry is the primary songwriter for AiC. Layne’s voice was important. And he helped with the songs. But Jerry sort of IS AiC. Dime and Vinnie could have chosen to move on with Pantera since they owned it. But they didn’t. Phil and Rex have never been the soul of that band. It was Dime and Vinnie. They are replaceable elements. AiC without Jerry isn’t AiC. His solo career hasn’t been unsuccessful either. Those albums sold quite well and he toured big venues with full houses. Occam’s razor would indicate that likely, he just likes doing AiC more.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 17, 2022)

xzacx said:


> I don’t totally disagree about some people not seeing the confederate flag as racist symbolism, but Phil’s outward antics didn’t start at Dimebash—there are on-stage videos dating back decades of him saying blatant racist stuff that you can easily find. So at very best, Dime was complacent with that while displaying his own. That’s not a great look and makes it hard for me to suspend disbelief. I didn’t hate Pantera initially but once I caught wind of that stuff it really ruined them for me. It’s not like someone had a temporary transgression and made a mistake. This was sustained shitbag behavior that imo is part of who the band is. So while it’s possible to admit your mistake, grow, and be forgiven, it’s hard for me to celebrate the exact era this behavior was from.


Phil's always been a turd, that doesn't change, however there wasn't as big of a social push for correction of that behavior as it is now. I'm sure Dime heard all kinds of racist shit growing up where he did. Ya can't fight everyone and some people learn to silently disagree. I can only judge based on actions and Dime himself never did anything that made me believe he believed it. I actually distinctly remembering him saying otherwise in a Guitar World column. Yeah racists will say anything but his actions never backed up the theory of him being one


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 17, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> This is a poor example considering Jerry is the primary songwriter for AiC. Layne’s voice was important. And he helped with the songs. But Jerry sort of IS AiC. Dime and Vinnie could have chosen to move on with Pantera since they owned it. But they didn’t. Phil and Rex have never been the soul of that band. It was Dime and Vinnie. They are replaceable elements. AiC without Jerry isn’t AiC. His solo career hasn’t been unsuccessful either. Those albums sold quite well and he toured big venues with full houses. Occam’s razor would indicate that likely, he just likes doing AiC more.


It's not a poor example...it's just an example. Sorry but with all due respect you don't get to decide for me or other AIC fans what seemed at one time unthinkable...which was that AIC could be a legitimate thing without Layne. Including Jerry Cantrell himself which may be part of the reason AIC didn't exist for about 20 years after Layne's passing. It doesn't matter if Jerry was a greater creative force in AIC. That said, AIC has succeeded partly because Duvall can mimic Layne so well and it has provided some continuity to the band sound. 

Also, I agree with a lot of what you said, but what you said doesn't support your initial refuting of anything I said. If Jerry was so successful as a solo artist why did he reform AIC? He could continue to play AIC songs live as a solo artist? Same way that Rex and Phil could continue to play Pantera songs in a band not named Pantera. I am just saying I am not going to pass judgement and call it a cash grab until I see the final product and looking at it from the artist perspective (Rex and Phil's) they see plenty of bands revive or continue with LESS than 50% remaining members so why can't they? I get it. But this is where, as I said before earlier in the thread, simple math of adding up % of remaining members doesn't work because EVEN if Zakk can channel his inner Dime to perfection, Dime is so iconic I believe it won't work. Pantera = Dime. Dime = Pantera. And nobody other than George Benson can change my mind on that.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 17, 2022)

Also, this needs to be said, I cannot and will not condone the "white power" stupid shit that Phil said and did. Fuck that shit.
BUT....please keep perspective when looking at historical perspective. I don't care much that Dime had a Confederate flag on his guitar unless he ALSO did racist shit. For some people the confederate flag was the thing on the top of the General Lee in Dukes of Hazard and not much more. They didn't stop and think about how that image caused pain to others because they didn't travel in that circle or have that life experience. You can be isolated from the pain effects on others because you don't *see* the pain effects and so you don't modify your behavior. Do you know how much hurt and human suffering our desire for cheap iPhones and affordable clothing causes to other humans around the globe? I suggest you promptly follow your own advice and ensure your actions (including spending habits) don't support slave labor work conditions. Dont EVER look at porn or eat fruit because human sex trafficking and human labor trafficking is a thing.....with very real and tragic consequences

Dime was murdered in 2004...I'm no historian but I don't think twitter (let alone twitter mobs) existed back then and the internet was still in its relative infancy. Therefore I will grant Dime some leniency in not achieving enlightenment yet on the real significance of the Confederate flag and I think had he been alive today he would have ditched the images and found another way to promote that he's proud to be southern without simultaneously promoting the parts that do not deserve any manner of pride.

Again, if you weren't around back then, your social commentary about "back then" is null and void. We evolved socially. Let me remind you all, Gene Wilder donned black face in the late 70's. Was he racist? I don't see any evidence of that. Apparently Richard Pryor thought it possible so he made 5 more movies with him to find out for sure. Were Gene Wilder alive today would he don blackface with shoe polish? I doubt that very much so I am not going to claim Gene Wilder is a racist since he took part in a racist trope back before there was a greater social consciousness about the pain it causes. Yes I know the scene was in the script but according to you all he should have known better and refused to do the scene or the movie on principle...or is it principal? I digress.

Lastly (and PLEASE do not mistake my devil's advocate stance as condoning the confederate flag...I don't. My favorite person is history is US Grant) but just a reminder that MANY musicians in punk and metal have used imagery and flags from the Nazis, imperial Japan, the confederacy, the soviet union and the devil or hell (lets not forget 63% of 'murica is Christian and the devil is real and offensive to them), or serial killers like Charles Manson to be edgy and piss people off. That's the point of the music.


----------



## xzacx (Jul 17, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Also, this needs to be said, I cannot and will not condone the "white power" stupid shit that Phil said and did. Fuck that shit.
> BUT....please keep perspective when looking at historical perspective. I don't care much that Dime had a Confederate flag on his guitar unless he ALSO did racist shit. For some people the confederate flag was the thing on the top of the General Lee in Dukes of Hazard and not much more. They didn't stop and think about how that image caused pain to others because they didn't travel in that circle or have that life experience. You can be isolated from the pain effects on others because you don't *see* the pain effects and so you don't modify your behavior. Do you know how much hurt and human suffering our desire for cheap iPhones and affordable clothing causes to other humans around the globe? I suggest you promptly follow your own advice and ensure your actions (including spending habits) don't support slave labor work conditions. Dont EVER look at porn or eat fruit because human sex trafficking and human labor trafficking is a thing.....with very real and tragic consequences
> 
> Dime was murdered in 2004...I'm no historian but I don't think twitter (let alone twitter mobs) existed back then and the internet was still in its relative infancy. Therefore I will grant Dime some leniency in not achieving enlightenment yet on the real significance of the Confederate flag and I think had he been alive today he would have ditched the images and found another way to promote that he's proud to be southern without simultaneously promoting the parts that do not deserve any manner of pride.
> ...


Dime was standing on stage WHILE Phil was saying this shit. Are we really acting like the pre-Dimebash stuff doesn’t count? Even if you completely overlook the rebel flag (which has always been offenseive, it didn’t start when Twitter was founded), he was still complacent and continued playing in a band whose frontman was spouting off about this stuff. You’re not responsible for everything your bandmates do, but when you continue to participate with them, it reflects on everyone. Times have changed, sure, but there’s no era where that doesn’t look bad. 

I’m sure we all patronize brands/artists/etc that engage in things we don’t agree with, but many people stop once they do become aware. And that basically sums up my feelings on Pantera. I didn’t hate them initially, then I saw a VHS of that behavior 20+ years ago, and I could never support them again.


----------



## CanserDYI (Jul 17, 2022)

Giest said:


> You guys do realize africans were treated as third class citizens, far below women, all over the USA before and after the civil war right lol? If you think the divide was about racism you're dead wrong, that's practically the one thing everyone back then agreed on- what they didn't agree on was how to monetize it and which group with power would do so.
> 
> You guys are acting like he had a hammer and sickle on his guitar or something, which ironically is in vogue _now_. Calm down.


I'd 100% rather he had a hammer and sickle flag on his guitar versus a Confederate one, frankly.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> The fact that African Americans are still treated poorly a hundred and sixty years later is reason enough to not use the god damn flag. If you want a symbol for states rights get a new one that doesn’t further alienate an already horribly alienated minority group.


Can I use Don't Tread on Me, or no?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I'd 100% rather he had a hammer and sickle flag on his guitar versus a Confederate one, frankly.


Pretty sure gulags lead to millions of deaths, but okay.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 17, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I'd 100% rather he had a hammer and sickle flag on his guitar versus a Confederate one, frankly.


I'd say it's more likely you're not of Ukrainian heritage...a people who may feel differently about 5 million of their own staved and murdered by Stain and the Soviets. But I won't look down on you or what you value or don't value image wise. Again, someone who struggled in Selma and fought for the right to vote and not be hanged for doing so sees the Confederate flag one way...and justifiably so. Someone who never experienced that and is more isolated from the horrors may look at the romanticized version. It's just like Che Guevara...a murderer who ran death camps...OR...depending on your perspective a counter revolutionary who helped fight colonialism and help the poor. When I see his image on a shirt on some kid in college, I know why it's there. It's a way of stating "I oppose corporate ownership of EVERYTHING. F- the man" Not a whole lot more thought put into it.

And Spaced brings up another point I would mention....growing up the don't tread on me flag was cool. It had a snake....it has new meaning now....anti-government militia and right wing terrorist groups


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

If I came back and I was Christ, I'd find crucifixes to be offensive. However, followers use it as a reminder of "His sacrifice" for us. As such, Dime and Zakk using the rebel flag might not mean much more than General Lee and Hee Haw.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 17, 2022)

It's a shame that you can't talk about Pantera without racism being brought up. All the more reason to let that band stay buried.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 17, 2022)




----------



## Giest (Jul 17, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> The fact that African Americans are still treated poorly a hundred and sixty years later is reason enough to not use the god damn flag. If you want a symbol for states rights get a new one that doesn’t further alienate an already horribly alienated minority group.



I didn't say anything about states rights, just trying to relieve some folks of their arrogated ideas.



CanserDYI said:


> I'd 100% rather he had a hammer and sickle flag on his guitar versus a Confederate one, frankly.



Yea being democide world champs is totally neat.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 17, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> View attachment 110876


----------



## WarMachine (Jul 17, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


>


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

Giest said:


> I didn't say anything about states rights, just trying to relieve some folks of their arrogated ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea being democide world champs is totally neat.


I don't know... China may have em beat.


----------



## SD83 (Jul 17, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Pretty sure gulags lead to millions of deaths, but okay.


One of the best examples why siding with "the lesser evil" is still shit. 
And going back on topic, "the lesser evil", compared to no Pantera ever, seems to be whatever Phil & Rex are planning. just tried to watch the 2022 Hellfest show of Down and everyone in the comments is going crazy about how good Phil sounds and... I didn't make it through a full song. Politics aside, not playing any instrument at that time, Phil's vocals were as much a part of what made Pantera great as everything else, if not more, and if they put Dimes guitar and Phil on stage together, the guitar would perform better. Even if he was the greatest person alive (and it seems he's VERY far from that), he's still a horrible singer in 2022.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 17, 2022)




----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 17, 2022)

SD83 said:


> One of the best examples why siding with "the lesser evil" is still shit.
> And going back on topic, "the lesser evil", compared to no Pantera ever, seems to be whatever Phil & Rex are planning. just tried to watch the 2022 Hellfest show of Down and everyone in the comments is going crazy about how good Phil sounds and... I didn't make it through a full song. Politics aside, not playing any instrument at that time, Phil's vocals were as much a part of what made Pantera great as everything else, if not more, and if they put Dimes guitar and Phil on stage together, the guitar would perform better. Even if he was the greatest person alive (and it seems he's VERY far from that), he's still a horrible singer in 2022.


The sad thing is that he was a great singer before he decided that sounding like he was getting fucked up the ass and or trying to take a massive shit was a great idea.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 17, 2022)

I just realized we could use the simpsons to make worthwhile commentary on every thread in this forum


----------



## j3ps3 (Jul 18, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The sad thing is that he was a great singer before he decided that sounding like he was getting fucked up the ass and or trying to take a massive shit was a great idea.


Dude, you like WASP. Go away  jk


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 18, 2022)

j3ps3 said:


> Dude, you like WASP. Go away  jk


Crimson Idol is better than Pantera's entire catalog.


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## j3ps3 (Jul 18, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Crimson Idol is better than Pantera's entire catalog.


Doesn't still make it sound like you know what a good singer is


----------



## Riffer (Jul 18, 2022)

Soooooo lets try something different and talk about what the setlist would/will look like. You think they'll play any deeper cuts? Shedding Skin would get me hype. I think they've only played it once in Japan.

Probably the setlist they will play, in no particular order....
Walk
Cowboys From Hell
5 Minutes Alone
I'm Broken
Cemetary Gates
Becoming
Sandblasted Skin
This Love
Fucking Hostile
Mouth For War
Domination
Primal Concrete Sledge
A New Level

Cuts I wish they would play....
Shedding Skin
Drag The Waters
By Demons Be Driven
Throes Of Rejection
Psycho Holiday
13 Steps
Goddamn Electric
Yesterday Don't Mean Shit
Death Rattle
Heresy


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Soooooo lets try something different and talk about what the setlist would/will look like. You think they'll play any deeper cuts? Shedding Skin would get me hype. I think they've only played it once in Japan.
> 
> Probably the setlist they will play, in no particular order....
> Walk
> ...



I don't know. Is this going to be a normal hour/hour and a half set or do you think it's going to be like a two/three+ sort of thing, with an intermission/lots of talking? Tribute videos maybe? Do you think they'll have guests? 

It's hard to say without knowing the format. 

I'm thinking they're going to do a fairly straightforward "greatest hits" sort of thing.

I think you're pretty much spot on, though I'd throw in "Revolution Is My Name" in the mix. I could also see a Sabbath cover like "Planet Caravan" do to the Zakk connection.


----------



## jaxadam (Jul 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Soooooo lets try something different and talk about what the setlist would/will look like. You think they'll play any deeper cuts? Shedding Skin would get me hype. I think they've only played it once in Japan.
> 
> Probably the setlist they will play, in no particular order....
> Walk
> ...





Great list. I only like a few songs off of Far Beyond Driven, and I pretty much quit listening to them after that album so this looks pretty good to me. Heresy is one of my favorite tunes by them but I just don't see Zakk pulling that one off great.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Soooooo lets try something different and talk about what the setlist would/will look like. You think they'll play any deeper cuts? Shedding Skin would get me hype. I think they've only played it once in Japan.
> 
> Probably the setlist they will play, in no particular order....
> Walk
> ...


No Cemetery. Phil can't do it anymore. I think he played a "tribute" show in like 2020, and it was absent for obvious reasons.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 18, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know. Is this going to be a normal hour/hour and a half set or do you think it's going to be like a two/three+ sort of thing, with an intermission/lots of talking? Tribute videos maybe? Do you think they'll have guests?
> 
> It's hard to say without knowing the format.
> 
> ...


It'll be a stock as fuck, stale as hell setlist of only the greatest hits. Basically take one of their greatest hits albums and there is probably 97% of the setlist.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jul 18, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> Are they coming back like this?
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, is that Phil?


----------



## Accoun (Jul 18, 2022)




----------



## Riffer (Jul 18, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> It'll be a stock as fuck, stale as hell setlist of only the greatest hits. Basically take one of their greatest hits albums and there is probably 97% of the setlist.


You're probably right. I'm still hoping for maybe 1 oddball song to make it in somewhere.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> You're probably right. I'm still hoping for maybe 1 oddball song to make it in somewhere.


It'll basically be akin to a KISS concert. They've mostly played the same setlist since 1996. To conceptualize it some, fans were getting "excited" that they put Flaming Youth into the setlist for fucks sake. Compare that to some of their peers like Alice, Iron Maiden, etc., and you see how boring KISS is from a live perspective.


----------



## Riffer (Jul 18, 2022)

ZAKK WYLDE On Coming PANTERA Tour: "It's A PANTERA Celebration"


"I think it's a beautiful thing."




metalinjection.net


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> ZAKK WYLDE On Coming PANTERA Tour: "It's A PANTERA Celebration"
> 
> 
> "I think it's a beautiful thing."
> ...


Translation: "I'll do and say anything for cash!"


----------



## ArtDecade (Jul 18, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Crimson Idol is better than Pantera's entire catalog.


----------



## Thaeon (Jul 18, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Occam’s razor would indicate that likely, he just likes doing AiC more.


I indicated why Jerry would choose AiC over a solo career here. Part of it probably comes down to the fact that he shares responsibility of the sound and he’s always seen himself as a backup vocalist. AiC is a better vehicle for his ideas and skill set. 


mmr007 said:


> Also, this needs to be said, I cannot and will not condone the "white power" stupid shit that Phil said and did. Fuck that shit.
> BUT....please keep perspective when looking at historical perspective. I don't care much that Dime had a Confederate flag on his guitar unless he ALSO did racist shit. For some people the confederate flag was the thing on the top of the General Lee in Dukes of Hazard and not much more. They didn't stop and think about how that image caused pain to others because they didn't travel in that circle or have that life experience. You can be isolated from the pain effects on others because you don't *see* the pain effects and so you don't modify your behavior. Do you know how much hurt and human suffering our desire for cheap iPhones and affordable clothing causes to other humans around the globe? I suggest you promptly follow your own advice and ensure your actions (including spending habits) don't support slave labor work conditions. Dont EVER look at porn or eat fruit because human sex trafficking and human labor trafficking is a thing.....with very real and tragic consequences
> 
> Dime was murdered in 2004...I'm no historian but I don't think twitter (let alone twitter mobs) existed back then and the internet was still in its relative infancy. Therefore I will grant Dime some leniency in not achieving enlightenment yet on the real significance of the Confederate flag and I think had he been alive today he would have ditched the images and found another way to promote that he's proud to be southern without simultaneously promoting the parts that do not deserve any manner of pride.
> ...



Yeah, most of this stuff can’t be compared as like for like. Even if they’re all symbols. Most of the things you mentioned don’t have grand scale genocidal atrocity tied to them. Hammer and sickle, Swastika, rebel flag all do. I think Hanneman was trash for using the Nazi symbols on his guitars. 

The point is, that Dime continuing to allow Phil to say what he said on stage without any sort of consequences isn’t just silence. It’s condoning it. Which makes him complicit. That in and of itself is a racist act. Period. The rebel flag has ALWAYS been offensive to black people. Full stop. You know it is in the US. It’s not up for debate. It’s use in the face of that, IS a racist act.

As to addressing the current project being called Pantera, Vinnie and Phil weren’t on speaking terms when Vinnie passed. Vinnie partially blamed Phil for his brother’s death. They had an open door to him to reconcile their differences and Phil refused. Now after they’ve both died he wants to move forward with the band’s name? Why do you think that is? Have ANY of his projects been as successful as Pantera was? No? It’s absolutely a cash grab, and it’s incredibly disrespectful to the memory of both Dime and Vinnie to start the band up in their absence when he refused to participate when they were still alive.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 18, 2022)




----------



## ArtDecade (Jul 18, 2022)

^ literal LOL.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 18, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I indicated why Jerry would choose AiC over a solo career here. Part of it probably comes down to the fact that he shares responsibility of the sound and he’s always seen himself as a backup vocalist. AiC is a better vehicle for his ideas and skill set.
> 
> 
> Yeah, most of this stuff can’t be compared as like for like. Even if they’re all symbols. Most of the things you mentioned don’t have grand scale genocidal atrocity tied to them. Hammer and sickle, Swastika, rebel flag all do. I think Hanneman was trash for using the Nazi symbols on his guitars.
> ...


I am very sorry to break this to you but you are not the universal arbiter on what symbols mean to different people. Thats just fact. You dont get to assign what meaning people place on things for them. You can make assumptions based on certain universalities on certain symbols but you still might actually be wrong. 

You dont get to decide that the millions who display swastikas on different cultural artifacts are Nazis because to them they reject that the Nazis are owners of that symbol. I went into a cool gift shop in little India (a neighborhood in Orange county) and nearly 50% of the objects in there had a swastika on it. 

But lets talk confederate flag because that was not a harmless symbol that was co-opted. It started as the battle flag of the slave owning states and continued as a symbol of intimidation and hatred…..and just southern pride for a region of the US that has a cultural identity. Now you can argue that those who display it are reckless or ignorant for applying a less spiteful association with it but you dont decide what they are inside because you apply a different morale clarity to the symbol. Some people were very offended by the MLB Cleveland Indians mascot. I cant tell them not to be. But I also cant say that everyone who ever wore that baseball cap intended a cultural offense. 

As far as Hanneman. Agree to disagree. I could write extensively on the subject. Because Hanneman was best friends with Rocky George and started a band with him I have a hard time believing him a racist. He has publicly said he is not a nazi or neonazi. But he also very publicly said that the whole continued nazi imagery and association they made made them more popular in a perverse way. Much the same way modern straight males on youtube and tik tok queerbait and pretend to be gay for likes views and attention. They flirt with “controversy” or pretend to be what theyre not because it sells.


----------



## works0fheart (Jul 18, 2022)

Steinmetzify said:


> Wtf, how do you have a reunion tour when arguably the most important 50% of the band are dead?
> 
> ‘We’re having a reunion tour!’
> 
> No you aren’t….



They should have called it a Tribute tour instead. I don't know in what world a band has a "reunion" tour without their founding members. 

That being said, if this is going to happen, Zakk is the best person for the job, so I'll give them credit there.


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## SexHaver420 (Jul 18, 2022)

Dimebag said the N word so he is bad and not cool.


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## Veldar (Jul 18, 2022)

SexHaver420 said:


> Dimebag said the N word so he is bad and not cool.



I kinda assumed Dime/Vinnie saying stuff like that would or been scrubbed from history. Seeing videos like this get uncovered is going to confirm a lot of what people like me thought about the band.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 18, 2022)

I shouldn't be surprised he dropped it so casually I guess.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 18, 2022)

Yikes.


----------



## Ralyks (Jul 18, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Crimson Idol is better than Pantera's entire catalog.


----------



## nickgray (Jul 18, 2022)




----------



## Dooky (Jul 19, 2022)

Couldn't care less about Phil's on stage antics & Dime's confederate flag guitar. I just like Pantera's music.
Hitler was one of the biggest [email protected]#ts that ever lived in the history of mankind. But I actually really like some of the paintings he did before he went all Nazi.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Jul 19, 2022)

I have to say that in high school I thought that Pantera were pretty cool because they had such a different sound from the other metal I’d encountered at that point. 

I’ve never been one to pay attention to ‘celebrities’ really, I’m learning some stuff in this thread though


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 19, 2022)

SexHaver420 said:


> Dimebag said the N word so he is bad and not cool.



But...why? He's not talking about a black person..he's saying it like the slang but using it wrong. I'm assuming that's how he meant it? Not justifying it at all. It just came out so weird that I'm trying to understand it.


----------



## SamSam (Jul 19, 2022)

I find it odd that the Rising Sun is always left out of the controversial flag conversations...

Dimebag using the N word or similar behaviour shouldn't be much of a surprise given the company he kept. Imagine what someone like Phil would say off camera.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 19, 2022)

SamSam said:


> I find it odd that the Rising Sun is always left out of the controversial flag conversations...
> 
> Dimebag using the N word or similar behaviour shouldn't be much of a surprise given the company he kept. Imagine what someone like Phil would say off camera.


Well...we know what he said off camera. Pretty much the same shit Dime just said on camera, lol


----------



## neurosis (Jul 19, 2022)

SamSam said:


> I find it odd that the Rising Sun is always left out of the controversial flag conversations...
> 
> Dimebag using the N word or similar behaviour shouldn't be much of a surprise given the company he kept. Imagine what someone like Phil would say off camera.



My belief is that it is left out because these symbols are historically less popular from an American perspective. The United States have been taking a look inward for a while now and I think as the conversations reach wider subsets of the population these other symbols will become part of the focus, too.

Regarding the video I feel that he was using it interchangeably as "bro". The pixelated guy in the back with the BLS cap could be Black. We don't know if he took offense but he may well be a part of his entourage. For a lot of people coming from Dime's background, especially back then the dominant opinions on how the flag is cultural heritage and the casual use of slurs is ok to get a reaction, joke, etc set up a different sense of responsibility. The culture he came from condoned this, for both explicitly racist and non-racist behavior. 

In interviews they always denied any association or racist leaning (as far as I have seen) and I wasn't in their private life so I can't really speak of that. I don't know them as people.
Judging from today's POV it's definitely racist and unacceptable. But based only on the footage I have seen of him and his brother I'd chalk it to utter ignorance. 

This is such a complex topic. It really deals with the evolving of the awareness of a large part of the United States. Many prominent figures have changed their mind on the alleged banality of the symbols and their use. Figures as large and known as Tom Petty used it and later retracted and I am pretty sure I remember a photo of Lajon Witherspoon from Sevendust wearing the flag on his belt in Hitparader. 

To your point about off camera: they may have been more unhinged off, but then again who knows.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 19, 2022)

...Yeah if he's struggling this hard with Down songs, he's gonna absolutely butcher Pantera songs.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...Yeah if he's struggling this hard with Down songs, he's gonna absolutely butcher Pantera songs.



Paul Stanley will look like a world class singer the past 10 or so years by comparison. LOL


----------



## ArtDecade (Jul 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...Yeah if he's struggling this hard with Down songs, he's gonna absolutely butcher Pantera songs.



That's his best work yet.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...Yeah if he's struggling this hard with Down songs, he's gonna absolutely butcher Pantera songs.



HE NEED SOME MILK


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 19, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> HE NEED SOME MILK


Odd way to spell strychnine.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno (Jul 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...Yeah if he's struggling this hard with Down songs, he's gonna absolutely butcher Pantera songs.



I mean, Pepper Keenan is standing right bloody there. He should've been the frontman for Down from the get go.


----------



## Ralyks (Jul 19, 2022)

There's a couple of videos of Dimebag throwing the word "gay" around. That's just how slang was in the 90's.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 19, 2022)

Ralyks said:


> There's a couple of videos of Dimebag throwing the word "gay" around. That's just how slang was in the 90's.



Folks talk about the 1990's like it's the 1890's. It wasn't that long ago.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 19, 2022)

Ralyks said:


> There's a couple of videos of Dimebag throwing the word "gay" around. That's just how slang was in the 90's.


No..nobody was throwing the N word around like that unless they were racist, stupid, ignorant, or all three.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 19, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks talk about the 1990's like it's the 1890's. It wasn't that long ago.


Well you could still be thrown in jail for being gay in the military or having gay sex in the privacy of your own home. Lawrence v Texas wasnt decided until 2003 so we werent that enlightened back then. Socially it feels like a million years ago and thanks to the current idiot supreme court we’ll be back there in no time.


----------



## Perge (Jul 19, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> No..nobody was throwing the N word around like that unless they were racist, stupid, ignorant, or all three.


Lots of ignorance. Not excusing dime AT ALL. But around the Texas suburbs from the 70's through early 2000's? Yeah, that was how the slang was, and you had to pull yourself above your peers to understand why it was bad. 

Once again, not excusing him, but he is very much a product of his time and place.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 19, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Well you could still be thrown in jail for being gay in the military or having gay sex in the privacy of your own home. Lawrence v Texas wasnt decided until 2003 so we werent that enlightened back then. Socially it feels like a million years ago and thanks to the current idiot supreme court we’ll be back there in no time.


mmmm..gay sex..now THERE'S a topic worth discussing. Fuck all this Dime nonsense.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 19, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> mmmm..gay sex..now THERE'S a topic worth discussing. Fuck all this Dime nonsense.


I dont have any experience to add to the conversation other than my Jeff Hanneman sex doll I am dangerously close to taking the camo pants and raiders jersey off of so its easier to spoon with at night.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 19, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I dont have any experience to add to the conversation other than my Jeff Hanneman sex doll I am dangerously close to taking the camo pants and raiders jersey off of so its easier to spoon with at night.


Let us know how that goes.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 19, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I dont have any experience to add to the conversation other than my Jeff Hanneman sex doll I am dangerously close to taking the camo pants and raiders jersey off of so its easier to spoon with at night.


----------



## Ralyks (Jul 19, 2022)

Perge said:


> Lots of ignorance. Not excusing dime AT ALL. But around the Texas suburbs from the 70's through early 2000's? Yeah, that was how the slang was, and you had to pull yourself above your peers to understand why it was bad.
> 
> Once again, not excusing him, but he is very much a product of his time and place.


Basically this was what I was trying to say.


----------



## nickgray (Jul 19, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I dont have any experience to add to the conversation other than my Jeff Hanneman sex doll I am dangerously close to taking the camo pants and raiders jersey off of so its easier to spoon with at night.



Hanni-chan


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Jul 20, 2022)

SexHaver420 said:


> Dimebag said the N word so he is bad and not cool.




This is even funnier when you take into account that the guy who stopped his shooter is named Officer James NIGGEmeyer! lmao


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 20, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> This is even funnier when you take into account that the guy who stopped his shooter is named Officer James NIGGEmeyer! lmao


Irony is a bitch


----------



## shredmechanic (Jul 20, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Nobody said you cant seek redemption for being a drugged up mess. You just need to make sure your name is Demi Lovato.


This guy clearly misses the forest for the trees every time and it's the entertainment I didn't know I needed


----------



## CanserDYI (Jul 20, 2022)

Aaaaaaand there goes the Dimebag N word video going viral on Reddit. 

lol.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 20, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Aaaaaaand there goes the Dimebag N word video going viral on Reddit.
> 
> lol.


Womp womp.


----------



## nightflameauto (Jul 20, 2022)

The number of words we threw around in the eighties that aren't acceptable now? Holy fuck. Just covering homophobic and 'special' labels would fill out most of a sheet of paper alone. In a lot of ways, we're better off now, but sometimes I wonder if we don't cancel words without trying to figure out why they're so prevalent to begin with.

We're very big on doing the easy part and gutting our language. We're not so big on figuring out why those words hurt to begin with, and why so many people want to use them to hurt each other.

Kum bah yah and all that shit, motherfuckers.


----------



## tedtan (Jul 20, 2022)

Perge said:


> Lots of ignorance. Not excusing dime AT ALL. But around the Texas suburbs from the 70's through early 2000's? Yeah, that was how the slang was, and you had to pull yourself above your peers to understand why it was bad.
> 
> Once again, not excusing him, but he is very much a product of his time and place.


I was there and can confirm that this was the norm. Aside from technological advances, Texas in the 1990s wasn’t very different from Texas in the 1950s or Texas in the 1880s.

And to Max’s point, yes, this was only 20-30 years ago. And while we’re not where we need to be yet, but we’ve come a long way since then.

The real issue isn’t then, though, its now, as there are a lot of people in Texas and at the national level (SCOTUS, entire GOP) trying to take us back to those days rather than continue progressing. The past is the past and can’t be changed, only learned from; the fight is now to prevent regressing back to those days.


----------



## mmr007 (Jul 20, 2022)

shredmechanic said:


> This guy clearly misses the forest for the trees every time and it's the entertainment I didn't know I needed


I managed to provide unnecessary entertainment to a stranger on the internets?! Chalk one more off my bucket list. Oh and thank you for the feedback...it helps me provide the highest quality of unnecessary entertainment


----------



## Veldar (Jul 20, 2022)

nightflameauto said:


> In a lot of ways, we're better off now, but sometimes I wonder if we don't cancel words without trying to figure out why they're so prevalent to begin with.



There's heaps of papers/academics on this. The reason you get things like canceling/culture wars is because fixing this kinda is a serious intersection affair where social manners is an easier affair.


----------



## nightflameauto (Jul 21, 2022)

Veldar said:


> There's heaps of papers/academics on this. The reason you get things like canceling/culture wars is because fixing this kinda is a serious intersection affair where social manners is an easier affair.


We're gonna "take the easy route" right to our own extinction at the rate we're going now. Sigh. Humans. So pathetically predictable.


----------



## Xaeldaren (Jul 21, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> Are they coming back like this?
> 
> 
> 
> Still voting for Ola as guitarist. He's a serious Pantera/Dimebag fan.




Ola himself said he wouldn't want the pressure and he doesn't have the chops:




EDIT: this is what I get for not noticing what page I'm on when replying. God damn, that namm video.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 21, 2022)




----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 21, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> View attachment 111152


At least it is more honest.


----------



## BlackMastodon (Jul 22, 2022)

I'm just here for the drama. /popcorn


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jul 22, 2022)

BlackMastodon said:


> I'm just here for the drama. /popcorn


Sorry you have to pick a side.


----------



## MFB (Jul 22, 2022)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Sorry you have to pick a side.



Default side pick is always fries, with mac n' cheese as the #2; but since this is Pantera and they're 'gOoD oL' sOuThErN bOyS!" then I'll go with biscuits/gravy, or collared greens for appearance's sake and then throw them in the trash.


----------



## BlackMastodon (Jul 22, 2022)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Sorry you have to pick a side.


Panera blows, Phil can fall down a well, Dimebag sucks for throwing around the n-word (hard r, too) like it's nothing and even though it's not surprising given where/when he grew up, doesn't excuse it. Also lol @ the people skimping for Pantera and pulling the "actually in not mad, this is very funny" card when people call out Pantera's shittiness.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jul 22, 2022)

MFB said:


> Default side pick is always fries, with mac n' cheese as the #2; but since this is Pantera and they're 'gOoD oL' sOuThErN bOyS!" then I'll go with biscuits/gravy, or collared greens for appearance's sake and then throw them in the trash.



I think those crispy, seasoned brussel sprouts should be a staple side option in every establishment.


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## thebeesknees22 (Jul 22, 2022)

BlackMastodon said:


> Panera blows, Phil can fall down a well, Dimebag sucks for throwing around the n-word (hard r, too) like it's nothing and even though it's not surprising given where/when he grew up, doesn't excuse it. Also lol @ the people skimping for Pantera and pulling the "actually in not mad, this is very funny" card when people call out Pantera's shittiness.


I too have never been a fan of Panera. I hate sandwiches. They always put mayonnaise on them


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## BlackMastodon (Jul 22, 2022)

thebeesknees22 said:


> I too have never been a fan of Panera. I hate sandwiches. They always put mayonnaise on them


Mayonnaise is the best condiment. Based on our recent posts from the last week or so it seems we're destined to become mortal enemies, beesknees.


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## thebeesknees22 (Jul 22, 2022)

BlackMastodon said:


> Mayonnaise is the best condiment. Based on our recent posts from the last week or so it seems we're destined to become mortal enemies, beesknees.


bahah, finally! I have an arch nemesis!


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 22, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> But...why? He's not talking about a black person..he's saying it like the slang but using it wrong. I'm assuming that's how he meant it? Not justifying it at all. It just came out so weird that I'm trying to understand it.





STRHelvete said:


> No..nobody was throwing the N word around like that unless they were racist, stupid, ignorant, or all three.


I would pick ignorant out of the three. But your 2 posts are pretty contradictory. People were definitely throwing it around as seen in video above. But you yourself even realized that isn't how he meant it, which to me is a pretty important factor.

As a 41 yr old white boy from the Northeast I can definitely attest to that is just how slang was in the 90s. Didn't mean anything, probably just ignorance. A lot of people still use it today and not just in Texas or at KKK rallies. I dont typically drop the N bomb but I definitely say Gayyyy just like Ken Jeong would from the Hangover and don't mean anything by it. Its just a form of slang I grew up with.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 22, 2022)

BlackMastodon said:


> Mayonnaise is the best condiment. Based on our recent posts from the last week or so it seems we're destined to become mortal enemies, beesknees.


Mayonnaise is only good because it can be mixed with sriracha.


----------



## Rob Joyner (Jul 22, 2022)

I mean, anyone had any doubts these dudes were racist? They had the confederate flag all over the place.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 22, 2022)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> I would pick ignorant out of the three. But your 2 posts are pretty contradictory. People were definitely throwing it around as seen in video above. But you yourself even realized that isn't how he meant it, which to me is a pretty important factor.
> 
> As a 41 yr old white boy from the Northeast I can definitely attest to that is just how slang was in the 90s. Didn't mean anything, probably just ignorance. A lot of people still use it today and not just in Texas or at KKK rallies. I dont typically drop the N bomb but I definitely say Gayyyy just like Ken Jeong would from the Hangover and don't mean anything by it. Its just a form of slang I grew up with.


I'm black..that word is in my vocabulary a lot..but it's because I'm black.
In the 90s, white people weren't just going around dropping hard R style N bombs. They didn't even use it the same way we did.
So unless this was some deeply hidden thing white folks did (it isn't), I repeat, non black people as a whole weren't just letting that word fly in the 90s unless they're stupid, ignorant, racist, or all three.
It's more likely that Dime meant it in the slang sense but, being white, wasn't quite aware the rules in saying that word. I don't know. He's not around to ask, BUT he's already hit the 3 strikes rule with me so I'm just gonna assume him to be a racist.

Even these days, white people aren't saying it unless they want trouble however since more white people have grown up in hiphop/urban/black culture they would be used to that word and how it's said. When Dime was doing that shit, that wasn't the case...especially him..so I don't think that applies much.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 22, 2022)

Never understood why people would say the massa form of a racial slur.

On a side note: Can someone check Takashi for thinking he can say that bullshit? Dude's a fucking pedophile thinking saying the word is cute.


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## uni777 (Jul 23, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> I'm black..that word is in my vocabulary a lot..but it's because I'm black.
> In the 90s, white people weren't just going around dropping hard R style N bombs. They didn't even use it the same way we did.
> So unless this was some deeply hidden thing white folks did (it isn't), I repeat, non black people as a whole weren't just letting that word fly in the 90s unless they're stupid, ignorant, racist, or all three.
> It's more likely that Dime meant it in the slang sense but, being white, wasn't quite aware the rules in saying that word. I don't know. He's not around to ask, BUT he's already hit the 3 strikes rule with me so I'm just gonna assume him to be a racist.
> ...


I never was a big Pantera fan. So i do not like or dislike this reunion thing. I'm amazed it didn't happen earlier tbh.

I do have something i've been thinking about, since i started reading this topic..
In 2008 i went on a European tour which included two US bands on the bill. One was a New York band. The other from New Orleans. Both great guys, In all the conversations we had they never made any comments which made me think they had dubious views. In fact some of the guys from NO showed me pictures from home. With their friends of which a lot were black people. That flood had just happend which made a big impact in their community.
These NO guys said to everybody "my n*ggah" or if you helped them out with something "uni777 yo my n*ggah".And everytime it was used as confirming grattitude or friendliness. It puzzled me and eventually i asked one of them about it. His reply was: back at home everybody calls each other that. My black and white frieds alike. As i understood it, the word, in the context they were using it was not a slur but a sign of friendship.
All i can say is i saw the guy's personal photographs of his friends and family. And talked extensively about his community because of the impact of the flood had on it at the time. I do not think a racist would be so close with people of color these guys were.

Thinking back and pondering on it, perhaps the word was re-appropriated by the black folks there and because everybody was so close with each other, eventually everyone started using it in that context.

*edit.
In no way i am trying to defend or anything of that kind. To this day it stil puzzles me.
In Dutch we have something called a "Geuzennaam" whitch is basicly purposely identifying with a mock name as a honorary title. In this instance, to me, it seemed kind of similair.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 23, 2022)

uni777 said:


> I never was a big Pantera fan. So i do not like or dislike this reunion thing. I'm amazed it didn't happen earlier tbh.
> 
> I do have something i've been thinking about, since i started reading this topic..
> In 2008 i went on a European tour which included two US bands on the bill. One was a New York band. The other from New Orleans. Both great guys, In all the conversations we had they never made any comments which made me think they had dubious views. In fact some of the guys from NO showed me pictures from home. With their friends of which a lot were black people. That flood had just happend which made a big impact in their community.
> ...


There are white kids who grew up in that environment, but usually even they know when to say it and when not to say it. I'll bet money Dime wasn't one of those people. That's not even his generation.. That being said, that is the way he used that word, but from him? Nah. Granted he's not around enough black people for someone to have told him that wasn't cool and why. I don't think he had any racist intent behind it..buuuuut when you hang with racists, glorify symbols of racism, and then use racist terms that's the three strike rule.


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## uni777 (Jul 23, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> There are white kids who grew up in that environment, but usually even they know when to say it and when not to say it. I'll bet money Dime wasn't one of those people. That's not even his generation.. That being said, that is the way he used that word, but from him? Nah. Granted he's not around enough black people for someone to have told him that wasn't cool and why. I don't think he had any racist intent behind it..buuuuut when you hang with racists, glorify symbols of racism, and then use racist terms that's the three strike rule.


I totally get what you are saying. And by no means i tried defending Dime in that video. It just made me think about that tour. And that expession used.

I guess when being a part of a community you end up talking the same way. I know that i use some expressions i picked up from our guitar player who is from another part of our counrty. Expressions which are not that common in the region i live. And in all honesty if i was around those NO people for years, being adressed that way. I would probably start adding it to my vocabulary it too. (perhaps even unconsiously) Especially because it was used in a friendly way.

Honestly i mostly try to stay away from vocing a strong opinion about stuff like this as i am Dutch and i was one of those people who back in the day had a "hey Dukes of Hazzard" moment when i saw Dime's guitar, or Zakk's for that matter.  If i would have seen that guitar in a car themed guitar line-up, i probably would have thought: Oh, Batmobile, Mystery Machine, General Lee, Herbie.

As for your last line, i can only agree with you... Something with Ducks and Quacks..


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## soul_lip_mike (Jul 23, 2022)

Listened to some Pantera after having not listened in quite a while. God damn they were good.


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## Werecow (Jul 23, 2022)

I was mainly a fan in my mid-teens. Growing up in a different part of the world, i had no idea the significance of that flag on his guitar. It was just "hey, it's that flag i've seen on TV a few times". I always hated Phil, just from his stupid tough guy persona, but hated him even more over the years as the internet revealed his racism.
Those Dime vids are the nail in the coffin for me that'd stop me going to see them even if they were all alive and happy together. Everything in and about this thread is so depressing for an ex super-fan. Far Beyond Driven is probably in my top 10 albums, and i'm not sure if i can listen to it again. It already felt weird just because of Phil.


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## philkilla (Jul 24, 2022)

MFB said:


> Who do I have to pay to sneak in a Nathan Gale hologram on the first night of the tour?



Well that's fucking horrible.


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 24, 2022)




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## Flappydoodle (Jul 25, 2022)

Well, the amount of publicity this gained, I bet every single show will be sold out fast and they're going to make BANK from this.

Hell, this thread alone is filled with people who don't even like the band and they can't stop talking about this reunion.

If they come anywhere near me I'll definitely go see them. I did see Pantera when I was younger, and Damageplan later. Biggest moment of the festival was when they played Walk. People went NUTS.


----------



## Dooky (Jul 25, 2022)

I thought The Pianist was a really great movie. Should I not like it because the director was a PoS?


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## Werecow (Jul 25, 2022)

Dooky said:


> I thought The Pianist was a really great movie. Should I not like it because the director was a PoS?


Like the film? Probably yes...
Directly support the director if he was doing a speaking tour? Well that's up to you. But i couldn't.


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## mmr007 (Jul 25, 2022)

Werecow said:


> Like the film? Probably yes...
> Directly support the director if he was doing a speaking tour? Well that's up to you. But i couldn't.


You dont support directors by going to their speaking tours. You support them by going to their movies which gives them the opportunity to be hired to make more movies. Going to see the pianist in theaters or buying the dvd or streaming it is like seeing pantera in concert…it shows you support despite…whatever the abhorrent behavior may be.


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## Werecow (Jul 25, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> You dont support directors by going to their speaking tours. You support them by going to their movies which gives them the opportunity to be hired to make more movies. Going to see the pianist in theaters or buying the dvd or streaming it is like seeing pantera in concert…it shows you support despite…whatever the abhorrent behavior may be.


I understand that. I was solely replying to "liking" the film in retrospect. Was just trying to give an example of a feasible, directly transferable situation. I'd not be able to go to anymore movies or buy anything further either.


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## Dooky (Jul 25, 2022)

Werecow said:


> Like the film? Probably yes...
> Directly support the director if he was doing a speaking tour? Well that's up to you. But i couldn't.


Ah, cancel-culture. Got it.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> I thought The Pianist was a really great movie. Should I not like it because the director was a PoS?


Was the director a racist PoS? Well the adult thing to do would be to acknowledge that yet separate the art from the artist and now knowing what you know, decide if you want to support his other projects.
Am I gonna delete all my Pantera songs and burn their cds? No. Will I realize they weren't people I wanted to hang around and leave it at that? Yes. Would I go see them even if all of the band was alive? Fuck no. 
See? Isn't that easy when logic is involved? No cancel culture, just common sense.


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## Dooky (Jul 26, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Was the director a racist PoS? Well the adult thing to do would be to acknowledge that yet separate the art from the artist and now knowing what you know, decide if you want to support his other projects.
> Am I gonna delete all my Pantera songs and burn their cds? No. Will I realize they weren't people I wanted to hang around and leave it at that? Yes. Would I go see them even if all of the band was alive? Fuck no.
> See? Isn't that easy when logic is involved? No cancel culture, just common sense.


Man, I hope Ben and Jerry didn't make any racist comments back in the day, cos I really love their ice cream.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 26, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Was the director a racist PoS?


Roman Polanski. Raped a minor.


----------



## Werecow (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Ah, cancel-culture. Got it.


I'm not a direct supporter of that. But if i had to choose between being associated with that or giving money to a child rapist, then i choose cancel culture thankyou very much. But i don't campaign for people to be "cancelled"


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## STRHelvete (Jul 26, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Roman Polanski. Raped a minor.


I know..I was pointing directly to the topic at hand.
For what it's worth..the dude that made Jeepers Creepers is a pedo and even put pedo bait in his movies, including Jeepers Creepers. I don't watch his shit. Any of it. Won't even watch the new one he didn't direct. It's all tainted...ALL of it.


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## STRHelvete (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Man, I hope Ben and Jerry didn't make any racist comments back in the day, cos I really love their ice cream.


K


----------



## Dooky (Jul 26, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> K


But we'll all keep buying our cell phones from Chinese sweat shops cos we need to be able to check our socials!


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## STRHelvete (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> But we'll all keep buying our cell phones from Chinese sweat shops cos we need to be able to check our socials!


K


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 26, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> I know..I was pointing directly to the topic at hand.
> For what it's worth..the dude that made Jeepers Creepers is a pedo and even put pedo bait in his movies, including Jeepers Creepers. I don't watch his shit. Any of it. Won't even watch the new one he didn't direct. It's all tainted...ALL of it.


Poor Nathan. He was trying to do a doc while Corey Feldman's grifting ass was prostituting his dead friend's victimization for money.


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## Dooky (Jul 26, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> K


O


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Jul 26, 2022)

I’d see Pantera live with the original lineup in a heartbeat. I have no desire to see this lineup because it’s not dime/vinnie and we know Phil’s voice is shot.


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## Dooky (Jul 26, 2022)

Well, I've just remembered this morning that Zakk had an old Les Paul with the confederate flag on it (the one with the bottle tops nailed onto it), so I guess that makes Zakk a racist PoS and people need to stop buying Ozzy and BLS albums too!!


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## MFB (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Well, I've just remembered this morning that Zakk had an old Les Paul with the confederate flag on it (the one with the bottle tops nailed onto it), so I guess that makes Zakk a racist PoS and people need to stop buying Ozzy and BLS albums too!!



Bro, at least try and read the thread, we talked about that guitar 8 pages ago


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## Dooky (Jul 26, 2022)

MFB said:


> Bro, at least try and read the thread, we talked about that guitar 8 pages ago


Damn, there's just so much to be offended and unraged about! I really need to catch up on these critically important events that happened decades ago so I can be properly offended too!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Damn, there's just so much to be offended and unraged about! I really need to catch up on these critically important events that happened decades ago so I can be properly offended too!


Were you born this obtuse or do you just like acting this way on the internet?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 26, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Damn, there's just so much to be offended and unraged about! I really need to catch up on these critically important events that happened decades ago so I can be properly offended too!


----------



## STRHelvete (Jul 26, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Were you born this obtuse or do you just like acting this way on the internet?


HE NEED SOME MILK


----------



## pahulkster (Jul 26, 2022)

Did Dime ever use being in a band to try and pick up a consenting adult woman?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 26, 2022)

pahulkster said:


> Did Dime ever use being in a band to try and pick up a consenting adult woman?



Phones weren't good enough for texting dick pics in the 90's AMHIK.

OT/ It's crazy to think Dime died like three years before we had iPhones. 

I remember a buddy of mine calling me on my RAZR when news of the shooting broke.


----------



## Dooky (Jul 27, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Were you born this obtuse or do you just like acting this way on the internet?


This is pretty much me. Hence why friends call me Dooky.


----------



## gabito (Jul 27, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Phones weren't good enough for texting dick pics in the 90's AMHIK.
> 
> OT/ It's crazy to think Dime died like three years before we had iPhones.
> 
> I remember a buddy of mine calling me on my RAZR when news of the shooting broke.



I remember somebody letting me know about it over MSN Messenger... Twitter and Youtube didn't even exist yet! Facebook was used for some university related activities!

Anyway, I still love their music. It's a shame that Phil seems to be a casual racist asshole and Dime didn't know better about using certain words. The world is full of stupid or horrible people making some (sometimes) cool art. Every person can decide what to do about it, that's fine.

This reunion is a scam, and it looks like they waited for Vinnie to die to do it. Really shitty of them TBH, but whatever.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 27, 2022)

gabito said:


> I remember somebody letting me know about it over MSN Messenger... Twitter and Youtube didn't even exist yet! Facebook was used for some university related activities!
> 
> Anyway, I still love their music. It's a shame that Phil seems to be a casual racist asshole and Dime didn't know better about using certain words. The world is full of stupid or horrible people making some (sometimes) cool art. Every person can decide what to do about it, that's fine.
> 
> This reunion is a scam, and it looks like they waited for Vinnie to die to do it. Really shitty of them TBH, but whatever.



Man, this is such a great post.


----------



## Werecow (Jul 27, 2022)

gabito said:


> I remember somebody letting me know about it over MSN Messenger.


Man, i miss MSN Messenger. The internet isn't half as "social" now as when people spent their time actively talking to each other on that. I'd spend a couple hours or more each night just chatting away with people. Now, it's millions of annoying people taking exactly the same picture of their own face each day, which is what being "social" means now apparently.


----------



## ChrisRushing (Jul 31, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I’d see Pantera live with the original lineup in a heartbeat. I have no desire to see this lineup because it’s not dime/vinnie and we know Phil’s voice is shot.


Unfortunately, they sucked for the later part of their career. Mostly due to the guy who is reviving the band. I saw them in the late 90s and Phil absolutely ate a bag of dicks and the band was mostly ok at best. I kind of wish I hadn't ever seen them.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 31, 2022)

ChrisRushing said:


> Unfortunately, they sucked for the later part of their career. Mostly due to the guy who is reviving the band. I saw them in the late 90s and Phil absolutely ate a bag of dicks and the band was mostly ok at best. I kind of wish I hadn't ever seen them.


I could get being excited for this if Phil's vocals were still good. 
But they're not. Dude's voice is beyond fucked. I can't understand wanting this at all.


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Jul 31, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I could get being excited for this if Phil's vocals were still good.
> But they're not. Dude's voice is beyond fucked. I can't understand wanting this at all.


Yeah even on their live album he can barely finish the vocal phrasing because he’s out of breath. Sounds awful.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 6, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Well, I've just remembered this morning that Zakk had an old Les Paul with the confederate flag on it (the one with the bottle tops nailed onto it), so I guess that makes Zakk a racist PoS and people need to stop buying Ozzy and BLS albums too!!



I’ve never purchased anything Zakk has made on his own. Never really liked it.

As for Ozzy? I liked his early stuff best before Zakk was in the band. No More Tears is a great album. But I never bought it. I did have Ozmosis. But that was a gift from someone.



ChrisRushing said:


> Unfortunately, they sucked for the later part of their career. Mostly due to the guy who is reviving the band. I saw them in the late 90s and Phil absolutely ate a bag of dicks and the band was mostly ok at best. I kind of wish I hadn't ever seen them.



I actually heard that even early in their career it was touch and go. Phil was drinking and smoking so much that who knows how his voice would be on any given night. They were never about perfect performance. They were about bringing an energy live. Which they did well. 

Shitty vocals really turn me off though. I’d probably have never enjoyed them all that much even in their best years.


----------



## Matt08642 (Aug 7, 2022)

Even Avenged Sevenfold is gettin' in on the action!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 7, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> Even Avenged Sevenfold is gettin' in on the action!
> 
> View attachment 112106


His dad is a hardcore Trumper so the apple don't fall too far from the tree


----------



## p0ke (Aug 8, 2022)

gabito said:


> I remember somebody letting me know about it over MSN Messenger...



Same here, and I heard about it several days after because Myspace (which I guess was the big thing back then) didn't have that kind of "news feed" thing  And even if it did, I don't think I would've noticed since notifications weren't really a thing yet and I didn't check Myspace that often.
It's weird how chat behaviour has developed since then. Current messenger apps like the fb messenger, whatsapp, etc. do exactly the same thing but people just don't chat there the same way anymore. I used to chat with my friends on MSN Messenger for hours every day, but since social media became a thing everyone I care about just went quiet.


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## Emperoff (Aug 8, 2022)

p0ke said:


> It's weird how chat behaviour has developed since then. Current messenger apps like the fb messenger, whatsapp, etc. do exactly the same thing but people just don't chat there the same way anymore. I used to chat with my friends on MSN Messenger for hours every day, but since social media became a thing everyone I care about just went quiet.



Yup. We're more connected than ever yet we are the most antisocial we've ever been.


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## nightflameauto (Aug 8, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Yup. We're more connected than ever yet we are the most antisocial we've ever been.


The more connected we get, the more we realize how fucked up we all are and the more we want to avoid actual interaction with those fucked up 'others.'


----------



## Emperoff (Aug 8, 2022)

Werecow said:


> I was mainly a fan in my mid-teens. Growing up in a different part of the world, i had no idea the significance of that flag on his guitar. It was just "hey, it's that flag i've seen on TV a few times". I always hated Phil, just from his stupid tough guy persona, but hated him even more over the years as the internet revealed his racism.l.



I'm on the same boat. At the time it was just a flag about something I didn't know about, but since Pantera were so famous I never thought it had any negative meaning.

I remember Killswitch Engange making a video about coming here to play in Spain. You know, the typical "We're coming at your country" kinda vid. But the flag they had in the background was wrong. it was the flag of the Dictator Francisco Franco (the equivalent of a Nazi flag), and fans were outraged. Talk about screwing it up big time.



nightflameauto said:


> The more connected we get, the more we realize how fucked up we all are and the more we want to avoid actual interaction with those fucked up 'others.'



I don't think that is the problem. Back in the Messenger days, everybody had those nicknames and subtitles and stuff that pretty much changed depending on the mood. Cringy? Maybe, but you could tell when somebody was happy, struggling, etc. and have a nice conversation. I used to chat with plenty of friends daily.

Nowadays everything has turned into pretending to have a perfect life and just posting shit to make others jealous or whatever. It's funny because I only seem to appear in social media from other people since I don't give a shit about posting my life on the internet (and my partner even less).

I'd rather waste my "social media" time here talking gear and stuff


----------



## Dooky (Aug 8, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I’ve never purchased anything Zakk has made on his own. Never really liked it.
> 
> As for Ozzy? I liked his early stuff best before Zakk was in the band. No More Tears is a great album. But I never bought it. I did have Ozmosis. But that was a gift from someone.


Well aren't you wonderful. You sound too good to be true.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 8, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Well aren't you wonderful. You sound too good to be true.



Yeah, a regular breath of fresh air I’m sure. 

I’ve also never liked Zakk’s persona either. That motorcycle gang thing has a lot of negative connotations too. I know he does it to creat his community around his band. To have a subculture for his fans…. But The Hells Angels and gangs like them did a lot of people super dirty over the years and have been involved in organized crime. It’s also not really a great look, though not overtly racist.


----------



## mastapimp (Aug 10, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Yeah, a regular breath of fresh air I’m sure.
> 
> I’ve also never liked Zakk’s persona either. That motorcycle gang thing has a lot of negative connotations too. I know he does it to creat his community around his band. To have a subculture for his fans…. But The Hells Angels and gangs like them did a lot of people super dirty over the years and have been involved in organized crime. It’s also not really a great look, though not overtly racist.


The problem is that when he was in Ozzy's band for the albums you mentioned never buying, he was nothing like he appears today. I've met him 2 or 3 times during those years (mid 90s) and he was more like a skinny hippie with bell bottoms and a giant tractor chain from his wallet to his jeans. The grizzled biker stuff came way later. He was a friendly guy and took time to interact with his fans. I wouldn't write him off based on your preconceptions of his BLS image.


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## Thaeon (Aug 10, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> The problem is that when he was in Ozzy's band for the albums you mentioned never buying, he was nothing like he appears today. I've met him 2 or 3 times during those years (mid 90s) and he was more like a skinny hippie with bell bottoms and a giant tractor chain from his wallet to his jeans. The grizzled biker stuff came way later. He was a friendly guy and took time to interact with his fans. I wouldn't write him off based on your preconceptions of his BLS image.



I remember that time period and that image. He’s certainly wrote some good stuff for Ozzy. I’ve just never enjoyed his solo output. But honestly, his Ozzy output went downhill too. After No More Tears there were a few cool songs on Osmosis. Then it was mostly throwaway riffs and the same pentatonic shred he always does. TBCH, I’ve never been a huge Ozzy fan either. Or Sabbath for that matter. So it’s never been an issue to just ignore Zakk for me. I just never cared all that much. I was more into Friedman, Vai, and Satriani for technical stuff, and grunge for songwriting. For just listening I’ve always been more of an Industrial/EDM person. Getting into metal was more of a “this is fun to play” when I was learning to play guitar and drums in the 90s. In retrospect, I like post punk and late 70s punk more than I do Metal.


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## Thaeon (Aug 10, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> Even Avenged Sevenfold is gettin' in on the action!
> 
> View attachment 112106




This has literally zero effect on my life in any way. I think he’s a trashy for doing it, but I’ve never listened to it been interested in them whatsoever.


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## mmr007 (Aug 10, 2022)

Apparently the confederate guitar is several years old and is in honor of his hero dime but he has since got rid of the guitar because of the connotation which was not on his radar at the time. We should still hate him though because every single person is irredeemable.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 10, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Apparently the confederate guitar is several years old and is in honor of his hero dime but he has since got rid of the guitar because of the connotation which was not on his radar at the time. We should still hate him though because every single person is irredeemable.


We are scum waiting to rot.

At least that's the nihilist take, anyways.


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## nightflameauto (Aug 10, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> We are scum waiting to rot.
> 
> At least that's the nihilist take, anyways.


They're nihilists! They don't believe in anything!

And. . . now I'll spend all evening throwing around Big Lebowski quotes.

You wanna toe? I can get ya a toe.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 10, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> Even Avenged Sevenfold is gettin' in on the action!
> 
> View attachment 112106





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> His dad is a hardcore Trumper so the apple don't fall too far from the tree



On his website: "I don’t play it nor do I own it anymore. Honestly, I wanted one because of my hero Dimebag but now that I’ve seen the overwhelming effect that it has on people, I can’t be a party to it. I’m not saying that all people that still support the confederate flag support the negative connotations. I just have no excuse being a kid from So-Cal witnessing all the people it offends representing any part of it right, wrong, or indifferent." (Circa March 2018)


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 10, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> On his website: "I don’t play it nor do I own it anymore. Honestly, I wanted one because of my hero Dimebag but now that I’ve seen the overwhelming effect that it has on people, I can’t be a party to it. I’m not saying that all people that still support the confederate flag support the negative connotations. I just have no excuse being a kid from So-Cal witnessing all the people it offends representing any part of it right, wrong, or indifferent." (Circa March 2018)


Well shit, dude learned and grew up instead of doubling down and blaming woke millennials or cancel culture. Major props.
...His dad still fucking sucks tho.


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## MASS DEFECT (Aug 10, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well shit, dude learned and grew up instead of doubling down and blaming woke millennials or cancel culture. Major props.
> ...His dad still fucking sucks tho.



Meanwhile, Zakk still owns the Bottle Cap/Confederate Flag Les Paul Custom. And currently has a hard-on for Odin Runes/Viking imagery. A literal wet dream for white supremacists.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 10, 2022)

nightflameauto said:


> They're nihilists! They don't believe in anything!
> 
> And. . . now I'll spend all evening throwing around Big Lebowski quotes.
> 
> You wanna toe? I can get ya a toe.


Say what you want about the tenants of national socialism, but at least it's an ethos.


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## Dooky (Aug 10, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Apparently the confederate guitar is several years old and is in honor of his hero dime but he has since got rid of the guitar because of the connotation which was not on his radar at the time. *We should still hate him though because every single person is irredeemable*.


Haha! Love this.


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## Dooky (Aug 10, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Meanwhile, Zakk still owns the Bottle Cap/Confederate Flag Les Paul Custom. And currently has a hard-on for Odin Runes/Viking imagery. A literal wet dream for white supremacists.


How very dare he!!! Cancel him, cancel him now!


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## RevDrucifer (Aug 11, 2022)

Dooky said:


> How very dare he!!! Cancel him, cancel him now!



Shit, I’ve got viking blood in me…..am I going to get cancelled?!?


----------



## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Meanwhile, Zakk still owns the Bottle Cap/Confederate Flag Les Paul Custom. And currently has a hard-on for Odin Runes/Viking imagery. A literal wet dream for white supremacists.


Always cringe... Which is a shame because until Dime was dropping N bombs I wrote him off as just a product of his time and not an actual racist.
This is deja vu. Zakk Wylde is such a lovable goofball...please don't let him be garbage too.


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## MFB (Aug 11, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> Shit, I’ve got viking blood in me…..am I going to get cancelled?!?



It's cool, I've got it too and I'll take one for both of us, I'm cool with this ticket getting punched now that I've "taken the ride" to quote ol' Hunter S.


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## soul_lip_mike (Aug 11, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Meanwhile, Zakk still owns the Bottle Cap/Confederate Flag Les Paul Custom. And currently has a hard-on for Odin Runes/Viking imagery. A literal wet dream for white supremacists.





STRHelvete said:


> Always cringe... Which is a shame because until Dime was dropping N bombs I wrote him off as just a product of his time and not an actual racist.
> This is deja vu. Zakk Wylde is such a lovable goofball...please don't let him be garbage too.



  

If I had a chance to own a washburn dime rebel I'd do so in a heartbeat. I'd keep it in its case away from view but talk about a rare item.


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## nightflameauto (Aug 11, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Meanwhile, Zakk still owns the Bottle Cap/Confederate Flag Les Paul Custom. And currently has a hard-on for Odin Runes/Viking imagery. A literal wet dream for white supremacists.


Wait. Vikings are white supremacists now? Well, fuck.

Next I'm gonna find out Dragons are racists too!


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

nightflameauto said:


> Wait. Vikings are white supremacists now? Well, fuck.


White Supremacists like to cling to viking imagery. I think it's some weird cultural machismo nonsense


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## nightflameauto (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> White Supremacists like to cling to viking imagery. I think it's some weird cultural machismo nonsense


Dang.

Hopefully they don't get into swords and sorcery too. Take away all my fun.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

nightflameauto said:


> Dang.
> 
> Hopefully they don't get into swords and sorcery too. Take away all my fun.


There are nazi furries, witches, cosplayers, etc..there are nazi everything. They're like roaches..they get into everything and ruin it


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## CanserDYI (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> White Supremacists like to cling to viking imagery. I think it's some weird cultural machismo nonsense


Which sucks because viking/celtic/northern european imagery is sick as fuck, but definitely does feel a different way now that it's become so heavily associated with the neo nazi movement. 

Nazi's have to ruin everything don't they?


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Which sucks because viking/celtic/northern european imagery is sick as fuck, but definitely does feel a different way now that it's become so heavily associated with the neo nazi movement.
> 
> Nazi's have to ruin everything don't they?


This is why the metal scene tries to run them out of places they try to nest in. You ignore them and they grow, then take over completely. Ask the skinheads..they know all about that shit. Nazis completely ruined that forever.


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## MFB (Aug 11, 2022)

What we need nowadays is a real Nazi-Nazi, someone who calls out these neo-Nazis and their inaccuracies to the beliefs/et al of the 1930/40's party. But what a pipe dream that is.


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## RevDrucifer (Aug 11, 2022)

MFB said:


> It's cool, I've got it too and I'll take one for both of us, I'm cool with this ticket getting punched now that I've "taken the ride" to quote ol' Hunter S.



Thanks!

I’ve also got pirate blood in me, thankfully my ancestor is well documented and while he did some unfavorable things to his ship’s crew, seems to have left everyone else alone. He only plundered those ships so he could get back to England.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 11, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I’ve also got pirate blood in me, thankfully my ancestor is well documented and while he did some unfavorable things to his ship’s crew, seems to have left everyone else alone. He only plundered those ships so he could get back to England.


Hell yeah, pirate cousins here, my old Welsh grandpa was sent to Barbados to pay off debts and ended up pirating and apparently never came back.

What does a pirate say on his 80th birthday? 


Aye Matey.


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## mmr007 (Aug 11, 2022)

They only ruin things if you let them. If people on the internet say you can't use Viking imagery because some idiot neonazi likes it then you helped the nazi achieve cultural appropriation without firing a shot. Our obsession with presentation purity means that nazis can take whatever they want and it instantly becomes theirs. Instead of getting pissed at Zakk and saying his norse imagery is a nazi wet dream, let Zakk be Zakk until you ACTUALLY HEAR HIM SAY SOMETHING ABOUT JEWS AND NEEDING LIVING SPACE....then cancel him


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## jaxadam (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Hell yeah, pirate cousins here, my old Welsh grandpa was sent to Barbados to pay off debts and ended up pirating and apparently never came back.
> 
> What does a pirate say on his 80th birthday?
> 
> ...



I’m actually Welsh and Hungarian, so that makes me Wel-Hung.


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## gabito (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Which sucks because viking/celtic/northern european imagery is sick as fuck, but definitely does feel a different way now that it's become so heavily associated with the neo nazi movement.
> 
> Nazi's have to ruin everything don't they?


----------



## nightflameauto (Aug 11, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I’ve also got pirate blood in me, thankfully my ancestor is well documented and while he did some unfavorable things to his ship’s crew, seems to have left everyone else alone. He only plundered those ships so he could get back to England.


I don't have pirate blood, I don't think. But it's hard to tell since our family tree "stops" (going backwards) at a supposed servant that claimed she was diddled by Robert E. Lee, then paid massive sums of money to pretend she never met him. So, on her death bed, she handed the Lee name to the kid he supposedly fathered and we've been bastard assholes ever since.

No wonder we're all drunken reprobates.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> They only ruin things if you let them. If people on the internet say you can't use Viking imagery because some idiot neonazi likes it then you helped the nazi achieve cultural appropriation without firing a shot. Our obsession with presentation purity means that nazis can take whatever they want and it instantly becomes theirs. Instead of getting pissed at Zakk and saying his norse imagery is a nazi wet dream, let Zakk be Zakk until you ACTUALLY HEAR HIM SAY SOMETHING ABOUT JEWS AND NEEDING LIVING SPACE....then cancel him


No one's after Zakk though. Rational people understand the difference between someone into norse heritage versus a racist..however when a white guy is super into it..I raise a brow. It's a small red flag and I wait to see what else he says and does.


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## mmr007 (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> No one's after Zakk though. Rational people understand the difference between someone into norse heritage versus a racist..however when a white guy is super into it..I raise a brow. It's a small red flag and I wait to see what else he says and does.


There are other posts in this thread that do say that. I was not referring to you. Your response is measured and reasonable.

It's difficult for me to put in words because I'm the guy with an S&Key Hanneman and a totenkopf sticker on a Hanneman but NEITHER of the those guitars or the imagery associated with them sum me up as a person. Those symbols don't reflect one iota, my philosophy towards humanity. I happen to love people...all people. That's why I work in a people oriented industry.

I get it that symbols are powerful things but not every symbol is a dog whistle. Trump let it become that...he let the racists come out of the shadows and now every time we see a shadow we want to smack down what is causing it but that is not fair to the individual person. See what they do. I've known several people who had confederate crap and had not a racist bone in their body and others who owned NO symbols or flags and were the biggest racist pieces of shit I've ever known.

I dread the though of a resurrection of Himmler but even more I dread the resurrection of Robespierre.

I take no issue at all with anything you said


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## ArtDecade (Aug 11, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I get it that symbols are powerful things but not every symbol is a dog whistle.



The Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism. Full stop.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> There are other posts in this thread that do say that. I was not referring to you. Your response is measured and reasonable.
> 
> It's difficult for me to put in words because I'm the guy with an S&Key Hanneman and a totenkopf sticker on a Hanneman but NEITHER of the those guitars or the imagery associated with them sum me up as a person. Those symbols don't reflect one iota, my philosophy towards humanity. I happen to love people...all people. That's why I work in a people oriented industry.
> 
> ...


I do think people have a tendency to get out of control and it becomes a silly witch hunt..but the issue is some people like to downplay symbols and what they mean.
I don't want to go to an Ozzy/Pantera show and be reminded through the guitarist's Hillbilly Swastika that they still regularly find people who look like me hanging from trees and that there are several people who seem to look back at those "good ol days" fondly as part of their heritage.
That's not a negotiable thing because that's literally the history of the symbol itself. 
This has been going on for far longer than Trump. 
Yeah it's possible that the guy who collects racist shit and puts it all over his stuff for people to see isn't a racist..but even IF he isn't, why the fuck would I want to hang out with someone who feels the need to remind people of that? Best case scenario he's just fucking stupid, and I don't want to deal with someone that stupid.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 11, 2022)

If you're going to fly the confederate flag or put nazi symbols all over your shit, maybe fucking own it. 

I'm sick of this "well, I like these symbols because they're evil and menacing and make me seem tough, but I'm not really that person" horseshit. 

Nah, you're someone cool with that. Maybe you're not a racist or nazi, probably aren't even, but like, you're definitely a tool for being really into that stuff to the point it makes others uncomfortable. 

Being into a band that scares old people and makes catholics angry isn't a suitable excuse for normalizing symbols like this. Never was, never will be. 

You can't cry foul for folks reacting to this stuff in literally the exact way it was intended, by both the originators and in use by those who co-opted it to make their band seem extra super dark.


----------



## xzacx (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> I do think people have a tendency to get out of control and it becomes a silly witch hunt..but the issue is some people like to downplay symbols and what they mean.
> I don't want to go to an Ozzy/Pantera show and be reminded through the guitarist's Hillbilly Swastika that they still regularly find people who look like me hanging from trees and that there are several people who seem to look back at those "good ol days" fondly as part of their heritage.
> That's not a negotiable thing because that's literally the history of the symbol itself.
> This has been going on for far longer than Trump.
> Yeah it's possible that the guy who collects racist shit and puts it all over his stuff for people to see isn't a racist..but even IF he isn't, why the fuck would I want to hang out with someone who feels the need to remind people of that? Best case scenario he's just fucking stupid, and I don't want to deal with someone that stupid.


I also think the Venn diagram intersection of “people who aren’t actually racist” and “people who aren’t racist, but totally cool with being mistaken for being racist because they fetishize racist symbolism” is awful small.


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## Andromalia (Aug 11, 2022)

BlackMastodon said:


> Mayonnaise is the best condiment. Based on our recent posts from the last week or so it seems we're destined to become mortal enemies, beesknees.


You're lucky I'm OOM.

Out of Mustard


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## jaxadam (Aug 11, 2022)

Well Vikings being racist is a new one for me, but I must live a very sheltered life.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> No one's after Zakk though. Rational people understand the difference between someone into norse heritage versus a racist..however when a white guy is super into it..I raise a brow. It's a small red flag and I wait to see what else he says and does.


Some are somewhat "historians," even if not officially or whatever. I get your point, though. For instance, Lemmy had tons of WWI/WWII stuff, including nazi shit, but I'm pretty certain he did not support racism at all. Go ahead, look up his response to a black metalhead in the 80s. (His wording might be "uncomfortable" for 2022, but whatever)


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## ArtDecade (Aug 11, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Well Vikings being racist is a new one for me, but I must live a very sheltered life.


You can thank Wagner and Hitler for that.


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## jaxadam (Aug 11, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> You can thank Wagner and Hitler for that.



Considering I don’t know who Wagner is and I guess I just don’t go out and actively search up on all of this stuff, I’ll stick to being sheltered.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 11, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Considering I don’t know who Wagner is and I guess I just don’t go out and actively search up on all of this stuff, I’ll stick to being sheltered.


I think you might know who Wagner is and just not know it. If memory serves, he did Flight of the Valkyries, which most should know from Bugs and Elmer Fudd. "Kill the waaabbit! Kill the waaabbit!"


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Some are somewhat "historians," even if not officially or whatever. I get your point, though. For instance, Lemmy had tons of WWI/WWII stuff, including nazi shit, but I'm pretty certain he did not support racism at all. Go ahead, look up his response to a black metalhead in the 80s. (His wording might be "uncomfortable" for 2022, but whatever)



I think there's usually a big difference in collectors and people who get off on the hate symbols. Collectors and historians usually tend to believe in accuracy and don't try to downplay the bad as if people are overreacting. There are people who collect civil war stuff, serial killer stuff, nazi stuff, etc but they don't go "Oh c'mon, guy it wasn't like that!" They'd agree the shit that went down was heinous and fully understand why people don't care for it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> I think there's usually a big difference in collectors and people who get off on the hate symbols. Collectors and historians usually tend to believe in accuracy and don't try to downplay the bad as if people are overreacting. There are people who collect civil war stuff, serial killer stuff, nazi stuff, etc but they don't go "Oh c'mon, guy it wasn't like that!" They'd agree the shit that went down was heinous and fully understand why people don't care for it.


Exactly. It is unfortunate, but the uniforms were snazzy (weren't they designed by Hugo Boss or something like that?) and lots of artists took the SS uniforms as a template for live performances.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 11, 2022)

I have a friend who is obsessed with WWII Japan, and has a ton of real war memorabilia from them and a room pretty decked out in it, how do people feel about that?


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Exactly. It is unfortunate, but the uniforms were snazzy (weren't they designed by Hugo Boss or something like that?) and lots of artists took the SS uniforms as a template for live performances.


Look..Nazi uniforms were slick as fuck and they got taken and worked into fashion, especially the industrial community. They were inhuman pieces of shit but they dressed nice.


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## RevDrucifer (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> I think there's usually a big difference in collectors and people who get off on the hate symbols. Collectors and historians usually tend to believe in accuracy and don't try to downplay the bad as if people are overreacting. There are people who collect civil war stuff, serial killer stuff, nazi stuff, etc but they don't go "Oh c'mon, guy it wasn't like that!" They'd agree the shit that went down was heinous and fully understand why people don't care for it.



I’m a history geek, especially WWII history. I think my grandfather telling me stories of his time in it that spurred it. I love seeing old artifacts/relics from the time period, whether it’s a stove, plane, knife, helmet, whatever. It’s all interesting to me. 

I was seeing a woman last year and one night at her house we started talking about my interest in WWII-related stuff, she went to her bedroom and came out with all these pins her grandfather brought home from the war; all Nazi pins. She’s Jewish and views them as more of a trophy than anything, like “You know how my grandfather got these? Killing nazis.” 

It was a trip seeing them in person and knowing exactly how they were obtained. I’ve seen plenty of stuff in museums, but it’s entirely different to actually hold them and know some insight on their origins outside of “this is a Nazi pin”. 

My interest in it has absolutely nothing to do with romanticizing fuckin’ nazi’s or any bullshit like that and I can absolutely understand someone like Lemmy who also took a big interest in it.


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## MASS DEFECT (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Always cringe... Which is a shame because until Dime was dropping N bombs I wrote him off as just a product of his time and not an actual racist.
> This is deja vu. Zakk Wylde is such a lovable goofball...please don't let him be garbage too.



By all accounts, Zakk Wylde is a pretty great guy. Just a red flag for me, if you catch my drift. I mean, you still have a confederate flag and some strong Viking imagery (while not necessarily the symbols associated with the neo-nazis), it just hits two items off the fasch binggo. I just hope that he made a statement along the lines of what Synester Gates' said.



mmr007 said:


> There are other posts in this thread that do say that. I was not referring to you. Your response is measured and reasonable.
> 
> It's difficult for me to put in words because I'm the guy with an S&Key Hanneman and a totenkopf sticker on a Hanneman but NEITHER of the those guitars or the imagery associated with them sum me up as a person. Those symbols don't reflect one iota, my philosophy towards humanity. I happen to love people...all people. That's why I work in a people oriented industry.
> 
> ...




To wit, I really like Hanneman. I own Soloists because of that dude. With all that imagery he wielded, maybe he was just a "student" of history like Lemmy. I guess white folks have more leeway when it comes to wielding symbols of hate because they can always attribute it as shock factor or own it like they are "students" of history. 

But for the life of me, even if I'm Hanneman's biggest fan, I wouldn't be able to wield those symbols, much more own (and gig with) a guitar that has a totenkopf, ss, or whatever that guy was into. It just doesn't logically compute since a brown dude like me would probably be the first ones to die in such a regime. Much more, what would my grandma say if I own one of those fancy Lynch ESPs with Kamikaze and Imperial flag graphics, when most of her friends served as comfort ladies during the Japanese occupation? I just couldn't imagine divorcing the image from reality when my people's history is intertwined with them. 

I guess you can say, imagery and the way they are co-opted is indeed a powerful thing.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I have a friend who is obsessed with WWII Japan, and has a ton of real war memorabilia from them and a room pretty decked out in it, how do people feel about that?


That won't get him any pussy at all. He should try collecting Beanie Babies or something


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## Albake21 (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I have a friend who is obsessed with WWII Japan, and has a ton of real war memorabilia from them and a room pretty decked out in it, how do people feel about that?


I think this really depends on what they are. I obviously see the comparison here to the confederate flag, and rightfully so. The flag = racism. Pretty straight forward. But WWII memorabilia is just that. It's history and memorabilia. That is, if none of it is as straight forward as the flag, I don't see an issue.

Unfortunately though, it's a slippery slope and massively depends on the person seeing it.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 11, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> I think this really depends on what they are. I obviously see the comparison here to the confederate flag, and rightfully so. The flag = racism. Pretty straight forward. But WWII memorabilia is just that. It's history and memorabilia. That is, if none of it is as straight forward as the flag, I don't see an issue.
> 
> Unfortunately though, it's a slippery slope and massively depends on the person seeing it.


Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc. 

Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.


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## Albake21 (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc.
> 
> Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.


Ehhhh.... that might be pushing it into the confederate flag territory a bit. Tough question to answer for me.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc.
> 
> Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.



Yup. It is incredibly problematic. ESP ran into problems when they were having Lynch models made in Korea and the staff weren't happy about the Rising Sun paint jobs. Racism is racism. If you have a hard on for some symbol that has its roots in racism, here is your sign - "Racist".


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## MASS DEFECT (Aug 11, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Not WWII memorabilia, but specifically pro Japan propaganda, medals, kamikaze models etc.
> 
> Wondering if people see that just as offensively as if he was decked out in full SS gear.



It would surely make some people uncomfortable especially if they knew what happened. When the Japanese landed and holed up in "open city" Manila, by all accounts they were worse than the Nazis. Like literally, testing their swords on males and their children, gathering up all the women of entire neighborhoods to rape day in and day out, burning kids alive and skinning them. Each and every soldier like that. Then there's the Death March. What they did was way worse in China and Korea.

But most people would be like "cool planes".


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## CanserDYI (Aug 11, 2022)

It always made me feel quite uncomfortable, frankly.


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## nightflameauto (Aug 11, 2022)

Holy hell. An in the wild 'kill da wabbit' sighting.

This thread has everything.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 11, 2022)




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## jaxadam (Aug 11, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think you might know who Wagner is and just not know it. If memory serves, he did Flight of the Valkyries, which most should know from Bugs and Elmer Fudd. "Kill the waaabbit! Kill the waaabbit!"



Morbid curiosity got the best of me, and I tried to look this up, but let's just say I'm really confused now. Can someone explain this to me like I'm 43?


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## ArtDecade (Aug 11, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Morbid curiosity got the best of me, and I tried to look this up, but let's just say I'm really confused now. Can someone explain this to me like I'm 43?



Wagner was a racist and an anti-Semite. As a fan of the music, Hitler appropriated Wagner's imagery into the fabric of Nazism.


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## mmr007 (Aug 11, 2022)

I love classical music but not a particular fan of Wagner…that said I thought the music used in one of my favorite movies Excalibur really worked. That is NOT an endorsement of antisemitism on my part. I just liked that movie and the music in it….though the Carl Orff music was better


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## soul_lip_mike (Aug 11, 2022)

Nowadays everything is ___ist and ___phobic so much to the point that you just end up being apathetic about it all. Show me on the doll where Zakk touched you.


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## Werecow (Aug 11, 2022)




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## WarMachine (Aug 11, 2022)

I think the bigger issue isn't what someone likes or dislikes/disagrees with etc. I see the bigger issue being more of how quick people are to fucking judge someone. Maybe I'm ignorant to it, but I've never heard of celtic/Nordic any-ic being racist. Sure, tacky as fuck IMO, but others may think that it's cool. But never tied into a racism pissing match. But hey, what do I know? By all accounts of this thread I'm one of those dumb hillbillies that live in WV  

Seriously though, is it really that difficult to approach someone and ask, "what does that mean to you?". Or is it just easier to say "look at that fucking racist tool".


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## Mathemagician (Aug 11, 2022)

I keep seeing this thread title and thinking something cool about power metal is happening.

No one gives a shit about Anselmo. I hope Rita goes full lawsuit on him and keeps it from happening.

Not reading 23 pages tho. That’s a lotta words.


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## jaxadam (Aug 11, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Nowadays everything is ___ist and ___phobic so much to the point that you just end up being apathetic about it all. Show me on the doll where Zakk touched you.



No kidding. I’m getting ready to “unfriend” one of my buddies of more than 30 years because his favorite NFL team is the Minnesota Vikings.


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## tedtan (Aug 11, 2022)

Norse runes and mythology have been used in metal for over 25 years, and if you include rock, you can go back to at least Led Zeppelin IV released in 1971.

Meanwhile, white supremacists seem to have been coopting those Norse symbols for the past ~5 years or so.

So if I come across a rock or metal band using Norse symbols, I’ll probably assume that they are continuing the rock/metal use of those symbols unless/until something indicates otherwise. To assume racism here based solely on the use of Norse symbols seems to be jumping the gun.


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## xzacx (Aug 11, 2022)

tedtan said:


> Norse runes and mythology have been used in metal for over 25 years, and if you include rock, you can go back to at least Led Zeppelin IV released in 1971.
> 
> Meanwhile, white supremacists seem to have been coopting those Norse symbols for the past ~5 years or so.
> 
> So if I come across a rock or metal band using Norse symbols, I’ll probably assume that they are continuing the rock/metal use of those symbols unless/until something indicates otherwise. To assume racism here based solely on the use of Norse symbols seems to be jumping the gun.


Sorry but this is super off. It goes back way further and was even used by the _actual_ Nazis in the '20s-'40s. The SS logo is literally runes. Unlike something like a swastika or rebel flag, I do think they're also used by a lot of people in innocent ways, but the history of the connotation is deep.


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## Albake21 (Aug 11, 2022)

To be honest, I had never even heard of this Viking usage before until today. Sounds incredibly stupid and a way for racists to just win every time by us affirming their actions.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Nowadays everything is ___ist and ___phobic so much to the point that you just end up being apathetic about it all. Show me on the doll where Zakk touched you.


Blanket nonsense like this really means "I don't want to think about whether or not what I'm saying or doing is wrong so I'll just be mad at the people explaining why it's wrong".

It's really simple and has been explained in this thread multiple times.


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## MASS DEFECT (Aug 11, 2022)

To be clear, nobody here has opined that using Norse runes/imagery is tantamount to that somebody being racist. I, for one, regard the use of Viking runes as harmless if you literally belong to the pagan religions or of some national identity or lineage. Or you like the TV Show, or you do cosplay. 

However, if it is used alongside other symbols of hate or you use the identified Nazi/Neo Nazi Norse symbols, that is a huge red flag. Like my co-worker who wears Thor's hammer necklace and has a life rune (Algis) tattooed on his index finger, I would've thought it was harmless. But then I saw his truck with a thin blue line flag and a literal SS Helmet sticker, I wouldn't want to be friends with that guy.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> To be clear, nobody here has opined that using Norse runes/imagery is tantamount to that somebody being racist. I, for one, regard the use of Viking runes as harmless if you literally belong to the pagan religions or of some national identity or lineage. Or you like the TV Show, or you do cosplay.
> 
> However, if it is used alongside other symbols of hate or you use the identified Nazi/Neo Nazi Norse symbols, that is a huge red flag. Like my co-worker who wears Thor's hammer necklace and has a life rune (Algis) tattooed on his index finger, I would've thought it was harmless. But then I saw his truck with a thin blue line flag and a literal SS Helmet sticker, I wouldn't want to be friends with that guy.


The people pretending that the conversation is "Vikings = racism" know that's not said in here. It's just a way to skip over the details in favor of trying to make the conversation seem silly and blown out of proportion. Either that or poor reading comprehension. Possibly both.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Blanket nonsense like this really means "I don't want to think about whether or not what I'm saying or doing is wrong so I'll just be mad at the people explaining why it's wrong".
> 
> It's really simple and has been explained in this thread multiple times.


At a certain point, people are desensitized to it, to a point where they stop caring. The same thing happened when a, b, c, x, y, z and more were considered cancerous/hazardous for your health. People stopped caring and said, "we've all gotta die sometime," rather than avoiding said things. Once it got to "microaggressions" a lot of people started tuning it out and surmising, "people will never be happy so whatever."


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> At a certain point, people are desensitized to it, to a point where they stop caring. The same thing happened when a, b, c, x, y, z and more were considered cancerous/hazardous for your health. People stopped caring and said, "we've all gotta die sometime," rather than avoiding said things. Once it got to "microaggressions" a lot of people started tuning it out and surmising, "people will never be happy so whatever."


It's easy to separate stupid small things from the bigger picture. 

Also It's a lot easier to dismiss it when it doesn't effect you. Men can easily wave off claims of misogyny. Straight people can laugh off issues of homophobia. White people can roll their eyes at racism.

I don't have tolerance for lazy attitudes regarding people who are literally fighting for their right to exist


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 11, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> To be clear, nobody here has opined that using Norse runes/imagery is tantamount to that somebody being racist. I, for one, regard the use of Viking runes as harmless if you literally belong to the pagan religions or of some national identity or lineage. Or you like the TV Show, or you do cosplay.
> 
> However, if it is used alongside other symbols of hate or you use the identified Nazi/Neo Nazi Norse symbols, that is a huge red flag. Like my co-worker who wears Thor's hammer necklace and has a life rune (Algis) tattooed on his index finger, I would've thought it was harmless. But then I saw his truck with a thin blue line flag and a literal SS Helmet sticker, I wouldn't want to be friends with that guy.


This isn't really related, exactly, but I found it rather comical when Paul Stanley talked shit about Ace Frehley because he'd get drunk/high as shit, then fuck with Gene claiming to be a Nazi SS Officer in the middle of fucking a groupie. (No, seriously. He'd really do that. If you've read Ace's book, you'd think it was super boring, but that's because he couldn't prove Gene, Paul, Peter, Wendy Moore, Gordon G. G. Gebert, and Bobby McAdams right. Ace used to pull some rather "interesting" shit, but I digress.)

Anyways, back on topic: Why do I find this funny, exactly? Do I think it is funny to make such rude gestures as a "joke" to a guy who grew up with the idea that his mom was in the SS camps? 

Nope. I find it funny that Paul tried to "out" Ace as some secret nazi, when low and behold, Paul Stanley (who is half German) and Peter Criss (Italian) are also seen in SS regalia. I'm not sure if that exactly counts as Streisand Effect, but good going, Paul.


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## Albake21 (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> The people pretending that the conversation is "Vikings = racism" know that's not said in here. It's just a way to skip over the details in favor of trying to make the conversation seem silly and blown out of proportion. Either that or poor reading comprehension. Possibly both.


I'll take it this is directed at me. God damn man, with that attitude of gate keeping you sound just as much as ignorant as the opposing side. There are plenty of quotes in this thread talking about how Viking Imagery (literally yourself included) are associated with white supremacy. Simple as that. No need to read in between the lines, especially on a forum where you know nothing about each other than maybe silly guitar tastes.

It's a new discovery to me, I said it sounds stupid as in, it's stupid it even exists at all. As in these idiots are racist losers who feel the need to claim something as silly as Viking imagery just to get their point across.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 11, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> I'll take it this is directed at me. God damn man, with that attitude of gate keeping you sound just as much as ignorant as the opposing side. There are plenty of quotes in this thread talking about how Viking Imagery (literally yourself included) are associated with white supremacy. Simple as that. No need to read in between the lines, especially on a forum where you know nothing about each other than maybe silly guitar tastes.
> 
> It's a new discovery to me, I said it sounds stupid as in, it's stupid it even exists at all. As in these idiots are racist losers who feel the need to claim something as silly as Viking imagery just to get their point across.


I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular. I don't even know who you are..but if the shoe fits, feel free to wear them while continuing your offended performance.


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## Albake21 (Aug 11, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> continuing your offended performance.


Oooo now that's some spicey irony. 

Regardless, racists losers suck. We both agree on those points.


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## jaxadam (Aug 11, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> Oooo now that's some spicey irony.


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## Dooky (Aug 12, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Which sucks because viking/celtic/northern european imagery is sick as fuck, but definitely does feel a different way now that it's become so heavily associated with the neo nazi movement.
> 
> Nazi's have to ruin everything don't they?


Or, you could just not give a fuck about what the far lefties think and do what you want.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 12, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Or, you could just not give a fuck about what the far lefties think and do what you want.


But...I'm the far lefty....


"Yeah fuck those guys, this stuff that symbolizes atrocities committed by peoples in power looks really sick man, I'm gonna wear it and knowingly represent those things because I'm fuckin COOL MAN. These guys cant handle my coolness."


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## nightflameauto (Aug 12, 2022)

This thread has been a perfect illustration of how people talk past each other and escalate a conversation despite there being no intention of escalation by anyone involved.

Meanwhile, I'm over here with my D&D Dice, trying to determine if its the D8 or D20 that was supposed to be the racist callsign.


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## mmr007 (Aug 12, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> But...I'm the far lefty....
> 
> 
> "Yeah fuck those guys, this stuff that symbolizes atrocities committed by peoples in power looks really sick man, I'm gonna wear it and knowingly represent those things because I'm fuckin COOL MAN. These guys cant handle my coolness."


As a far lefty myself I agree with what you are saying but let me counter with this which has been kinda my point all along..

Why do so many metal bands use ANY controversial imagery? Why do they use pentagrams which represent satanism? Devil worship, imagery, band names and song names and album covers of death, mutilation, rape, necrophilia, militaria, genocide, and you may think I'm just referring to Slayer but I'm not....that's most bands out there. All of that is offensive and technically shouldn't be used. But I'm not the PMRC and I don't intend to be.

Again symbols mean different things to different people. There are some hand gestures you cannot do in say...Japan or Italy that are commonplace in the US. I agree the sight of the confederate flag gives me pause and I would never associate with someone who displays the nazi swastika....but we cannot all have the same sensitivity to something and you can't hate someone (or shouldn't anyway) because they fail to possess your same sensitivity. Otherwise we could nitpick EVERYTHING all day long. For example...

I don't fish. It's just a leisurely sport. You know why I don't? Because the the thought of capturing an animal on a hook and dragging it to its death by a hook through its mouth is absolutely barbaric to me. I view it the same as dog fighting. I understand that if you need to eat and a net is not an option but the thought of sport fishing is horrible to me. But I will never apply my values to any of you who enjoy fishing because I believe you can all be very good people despite doing something I don't like.

Let me propose another stupid example of mine....Freddy Krueger. A fictional psychopath. A fucking child molester who was burned to death by parents of his victims rises from the dead to murder more kids and say profane things while doing it and yet we have this......



My point? The simple fact is people don't always put the thought into things that you think they do. Dime may be a racist and so may Zakk. But until they do something actually racist like republicans trying to limit the ability of blacks to vote or something like that I will try not judge them too harshly because we are all imperfect and trying to find our way and our voice in this world and I cannot be too harsh on two guitarists who became famous during a time in history when Andrew fucking "Dice" Clay was a thing.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 12, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> As a far lefty myself I agree with what you are saying but let me counter with this which has been kinda my point all along..
> 
> Why do so many metal bands use ANY controversial imagery? Why do they use pentagrams which represent satanism? Devil worship, imagery, band names and song names and album covers of death, mutilation, rape, necrophilia, militaria, genocide, and you may think I'm just referring to Slayer but I'm not....that's most bands out there. All of that is offensive and technically shouldn't be used. But I'm not the PMRC and I don't intend to be.
> 
> ...


I'm not disagreeing with you, but something about generic "death, murder, rape, gore" doesnt discriminate to me. It can and will happen to anyone, where as logos and symbols that were literally used to scare and terrorize entire groups of people into submission or actual not fictional or fantastical situations, it really sits differently to me. 

And that's not being a snowflake, realizing how fucking offensive like 90% of our white culture and heritage is. (not pointed at @mmr007 this is just something I want to point out in general)


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## mmr007 (Aug 12, 2022)

I agree that the "generic" atrocities don't stand out because there isnt a twisted ideology behind it that we can identify. It's just art imitating life and I get that whereas some of the symbols we already mentioned are just life and not art and they are a stand in for pending bad things or evil deeds. But again, that means we should ban the pentagram or "cancel" those who use it because many people, including christians find it very offensive. And why wouldn't they...it is the very definition of evil (BTW I'm an atheist so I don't give a shit) but that again reinforces my other point is that it is a symbol that....because of my upbringing and my lifestyle that has never had the same impact on me that it had on others...like the victims of satanist Richard Ramirez.

I will not spend one cubic ounce of breath defending racism. But I will only say that a snapshot of someone will not ever be enough to make me form a complete opinion on them. A controversial image on a guitar....I am ok with that


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## xzacx (Aug 12, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Why do so many metal bands use ANY controversial imagery? Why do they use pentagrams which represent satanism? Devil worship, imagery, band names and song names and album covers of death, mutilation, rape, necrophilia, militaria, genocide, and you may think I'm just referring to Slayer but I'm not....that's most bands out there. All of that is offensive and technically shouldn't be used. But I'm not the PMRC and I don't intend to be.



It's not exactly apples to apples though—it's almost the opposite. The use of satanic/anti-religious imagery does have shock value, but there's purposeful socio-political meaning behind it. A lot of bands use it as symbolism against what they feel is the oppressive and discriminatory nature of religion and the atrocities it has and still commits. So in those cases it's not like "we're just using it to scare people" but more like "no, we're really against religion because we think it's ultimately a negative force."


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## mmr007 (Aug 12, 2022)

xzacx said:


> The use of satanic/anti-religious imagery does have shock value, but there's purposeful socio-political meaning behind it.


According to you. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am not saying I disagree with you. I am saying according to you. Others may see it differently and again, I don't judge others for having a different POV or be less further along on their sophistication in tolerance.

Let us all remember in 2008 Obama said he DID NOT support gay marriage. In 2008! He had to *evolve *on the issue. I disagreed strongly with him at the time. I've been a supporter of gay marriage since the late 80's before it was on any national topic of conversation radar. But I still supported him and for whatever reason he "evolved" on the issue.

None of us are perfect or have been right every time.....but I will reserve final judgement (not that it's mine to give) after I have a greater body of work to view. Dime was murdered. I don't know what his use of the flag on guitars or N word would be now. If he went full Ted Nugent....yeah fuck him. If not...who knows.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 12, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I don't know what his use of the flag on guitars or N word would be now. If he went full Ted Nugent....yeah fuck him. If not...who knows.


I get what you are saying, but I'm more than willing to pass judgement. If you associate yourself with the Confederate flag because you think it makes you a rebel rather than a racist, well, you are still wrong. Is it possible that he was too dumb to understand the difference? Possibly, but that is why these discussions pop up - to educate the ignorant.


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## mmr007 (Aug 12, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> I get what you are saying, but I'm more than willing to pass judgement. If you associate yourself with the Confederate flag because you think it makes you a rebel rather than a racist, well, you are still wrong. Is it possible that he was too dumb to understand the difference? Possibly, but that is why these discussions pop up - to educate the ignorant.


I agree with 99% of what you said. I would say 100% but I have commitment issues and I need to leave myself some wiggle room for future contrarian arguments and discussions.


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## tedtan (Aug 12, 2022)

xzacx said:


> Sorry but this is super off.


What part of what I said is “super off”?




xzacx said:


> It goes back way further and was even used by the _actual_ Nazis in the '20s-'40s. The SS logo is literally runes. Unlike something like a swastika or rebel flag, I do think they're also used by a lot of people in innocent ways, but the history of the connotation is deep.


I’m not suggesting that white supremacists haven’t used Nordic symbology in the past, only that in recent times, they only seem to have been using them for the past few years, whereas rock and metal bands have been using them consistently for decades. So in the context of rock and metal bands, which is what we’re talking about in a Panera reunion thread, the use of Norse symbols wouldn’t be a red flag for me unless there were other signs of racism in combination with the Norse symbols.


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## Thaeon (Aug 12, 2022)

Yeah. From my perspective, it’s experience of those things we’re talking about. For instance, I’m a direct descendent of Langobards, Celts, and Picts. Viking imagery and Celtic imagery are part of my heritage. But I avoid Viking imagery because it has been so closely tied to Nazi stuff. I’ve known people that have used that imagery here in the US that were not racist. Most often it’s a means to feel connected with where your family comes from. I’ve seen Celtic imagery attempted to be used by white supremacists. The vast majority of the people I’ve known using a rebel flag have said something racist or had racist ideologies that they would openly espouse when they thought it was safe. That’s why I can’t support the rebel flag and I question the motives of someone flying one. Viking imagery or Celtic or whatever, I’d hold back judgement until I saw other evidence. Imagery like Iron Crosses and Swastikas that were used by Nazis I see as Nazi iconography. I’m not just categorically making judgements about Pantera. Rebel flags (a sign to be wary at the very least), coupled with Phil’s behavior and Dime either not saying anything or laughing builds a pretty solid case. For at least one of them having racist tendencies and the other either being complicit in those things or being too weak to say something. The latter running contrary to Dime’s public persona. I rebel flag is and indicator of racism at worst and red flag warning of the possibility at best. Jury is out on Zakk. But based on the culture he’s picked for his fans, it doesn’t bode well. James Hetfield using an Iron Cross and some of the shit he’s said are very questionable. The cross on the guitar is most likely a nod to Lemmy. Lemmy’s use of that symbology is problematic. But that’s not the first thing we could find about his life that would be seen as problematic. Jury is still out for me about most of these people. But not Dime and Phil. There’s enough evidence in my estimation that there was/is some racism going on.


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## tedtan (Aug 12, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> I get what you are saying, but I'm more than willing to pass judgement. If you associate yourself with the Confederate flag because you think it makes you a rebel rather than a racist, well, you are still wrong. Is it possible that he was too dumb to understand the difference? Possibly, but that is why these discussions pop up - to educate the ignorant.


They funniest thing about Zakk using the Confederate flag is that he’s from New Jersey.


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## mmr007 (Aug 12, 2022)

tedtan said:


> They funniest thing about Zakk using the Confederate flag is that he’s from New Jersey.


Yeah but its southern New Jersey...points for trying?


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## jaxadam (Aug 12, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Yeah but its southern New Jersey...points for trying?



He’s from Bayonne which is right in between Staten Island and Newark/Jersey City/Manhattan.


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## GenghisCoyne (Aug 12, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> He’s from Bayonne which is right in between Staten Island and Newark/Jersey City/Manhattan.


the patriotic souths fight in the war of northern aggression saw support on both sides of the mason dixon


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## CanserDYI (Aug 12, 2022)

Ew Jersey City. Last time I was there some cops poured my weed onto the ground made me stomp on it and it started raining and they hopped in their car as I was standing in the middle of the rain and left me there with a "Stay the fuck out of Jersey" as they drove off. 

Not even exaggerating, I was an 18 year old traveler kid and just made me hate Jersey with a passion lol.


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## MFB (Aug 12, 2022)

I've only driven through Jersey once, but I got stuck taking the Garden State Parkway, and even as recent as 2019 it was the only road I've ever been on that still required CHANGE for you go pass through. Mind you, there's no gate or anything, so I pull up and see it asking for 50 cents and look around like "who the fuck still has change" and then drove off.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 12, 2022)

GenghisCoyne said:


> the patriotic souths fight in the war of northern aggression saw support on both sides of the mason dixon


I hope you meant to end that with */sarcasm*


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## GenghisCoyne (Aug 12, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> I hope you meant to end that with */sarcasm*


you will go to your grave never knowing


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## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 12, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> But...I'm the far lefty....
> 
> 
> "Yeah fuck those guys, this stuff that symbolizes atrocities committed by peoples in power looks really sick man, I'm gonna wear it and knowingly represent those things because I'm fuckin COOL MAN. These guys cant handle my coolness."


I appreciate you for doing your part to allow racist extra chromosome having boneheads have their way.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 12, 2022)

GenghisCoyne said:


> you will go to your grave never knowing


But at least I won't go to my grave as an ignorant toss pot.


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## GenghisCoyne (Aug 12, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> But at least I won't go to my grave as an ignorant toss pot.


you wont know. You will loosely defined remain ignorant


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## CanserDYI (Aug 12, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I appreciate you for doing your part to allow racist extra chromosome having boneheads have their way.


You lost me? I'm not sure how me essentially saying "dont wear symbols that are heavily associated with racist and xenophobic atrocities" is allowing racists their way?


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## mmr007 (Aug 12, 2022)

Yeah that one lost me


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## jaxadam (Aug 12, 2022)

And to be clear, my comment earlier about unfriending my buddy who is a Minnesota Vikings fan has nothing to do with the new information gleaned from this thread. It’s really just that…. he’s a Minnesota Vikings fan.


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## STRHelvete (Aug 12, 2022)

I prefer canned peaches in heavy syrup over light syrup because thr peaches in heavy syrup are sweeter


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## Dooky (Aug 15, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> But...I'm the far lefty....
> 
> 
> "Yeah fuck those guys, this stuff that symbolizes atrocities committed by peoples in power looks really sick man, I'm gonna wear it and knowingly represent those things because I'm fuckin COOL MAN. These guys cant handle my coolness."


Well, one things for certain, you do sound like an exceptionally cool person... *cough*
Also, it was you that said: _"viking/celtic/northern european imagery is sick as fuck, but definitely does feel a different way now that it's become so heavily associated with the neo nazi movement"._ I personally don't think it looks at all "sick as fuck" as you so eloquently put it. So, don't know why you're getting your panties in a wad at me, buddy. Lol.


----------



## STRHelvete (Aug 15, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Well, one things for certain, you do sound like an exceptionally cool person... *cough*


Says the edgelord....


----------



## Dooky (Aug 15, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Says the edgelord....


Hey, don't you know it's 2022? You shouldn't be saying things that might offend or hurt someone's feelings. And that comment has hurt me right in the feelings. Plus, I'm really sad that STRHelvete doesn't think I'm cool and it's looking more and more unlikely that we'll be friends


----------



## STRHelvete (Aug 16, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Hey, don't you know it's 2022? You shouldn't be saying things that might offend or hurt someone's feelings. And that comment has hurt me right in the feelings. Plus, I'm really sad that STRHelvete doesn't think I'm cool and it's looking more and more unlikely that we'll be friends


The perfect example of doing the most and accomplishing the least.


----------



## Dooky (Aug 16, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> The perfect example of doing the most and accomplishing the least.


Another meaningless quote for you to use when you next want to try and sound smart is: "The more you know, the less you understand". You're welcome


----------



## alex_x (Sep 21, 2022)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czxLdbbqAbw
idk if it was posted already, but it sums it up pretty well.


----------



## Veldar (Sep 22, 2022)

alex_x said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czxLdbbqAbw
> idk if it was posted already, but it sums it up pretty well.



It's pretty obvious to anyone who ever read an interview with Vinnie.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 22, 2022)

Veldar said:


> It's pretty obvious to anyone who ever read an interview with Vinnie.


Yep. Been his opinion until the end.


----------



## Marked Man (Sep 23, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> What's next, Nirvana and the Jimi Hendrix Experience?



Or how about The Doors?



This is a pointless exercise. And I'm a huge fan of the original Pantera. Thanks for keeping Metal alive during some lean, terrible years!!!


----------



## Marked Man (Sep 23, 2022)

nickgray said:


> Patiently waiting for a John Lennon reunion



I hear Yoko's available. And that's too bad.....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 23, 2022)

Marked Man said:


> Or how about The Doors?
> 
> 
> 
> This is a pointless exercise. And I'm a huge fan of the original Pantera. Thanks for keeping Metal alive during some lean, terrible years!!!



I think the Doors is good to rbing up. They tried to continue with out Morrison and it was apparently so bad they broke up the band not long after.


----------



## warhead (Sep 25, 2022)

All you guys mentioning different "possible" reunions in jest are all mentioning bands who's singers are dead, right? It makes all the difference in the world to most of the people.


----------



## alex_x (Oct 12, 2022)

I guess they/we mean Dime's charisma and presence were as important as vocalists', don't you think he was kinda co-frontman in Pantera, just like Van Halen?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2022)

alex_x said:


> I guess they/we mean Dime's charisma and presence were as important as vocalists', don't you think he was kinda co-frontman in Pantera, just like Van Halen?


Key members of bands that just happen to be singers. In Pantera, the key members just happen to be the guitarist, drummer, and singer.


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Oct 12, 2022)

I just really hope Phil is practicing. He sounded like dog shit live in the later Pantera years.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 12, 2022)

Who is the most important member of a band to fans is different for every band and every fan. I agree that the doors without Jim Morrison is pointless but Deep Purple continues to tour (and quite successfully) without its two most important members as far as it sound goes, Richie Blackmore and Jon Lord so there is no formula or metric that measures at what point a band's loss of members means the band is no longer viable. To me Pantera will never *feel* like Pantera without Dime but it may still be quite viable to many especially since there seems to be such a thirst for legacy acts while simultaneously acknowledging that it is nearly impossible to have key members still in the fold


----------



## cowboystring (Oct 13, 2022)

unfortunately not the same without the Abbotts


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 13, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I just really hope Phil is practicing. He sounded like dog shit live in the later Pantera years.


Don't worry, he got worse.


----------



## littlebadboy (Oct 13, 2022)

Marked Man said:


> I hear Yoko's available. And that's too bad.....


Awesome! Heard she was into screamo.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Oct 13, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I just really hope Phil is practicing. He sounded like dog shit live in the later Pantera years.


He can barely talk for fuck's sake. There is no way that he'll sound at all decent. They recently did a Pantera tribute set (I dreaded where that was going) and Phil sounded like ass.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Oct 13, 2022)

cowboystring said:


> unfortunately not the same without the Abbotts


It isn't Pantera without the Abbotts. It is a bootleg Superdown Bitchual without Dime and Vinnie Paul.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 13, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> Awesome! Heard she was into screamo.



She still reaches the high notes better than Phil


----------



## alex_x (Oct 15, 2022)

Cmon guys, be objective, he got much better than in mid 10s, of course not as good as in 90s.


----------



## Musiscience (Oct 15, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> Awesome! Heard she was into screamo.



I think she just invented emergency room core


----------



## nightflameauto (Oct 17, 2022)

alex_x said:


> Cmon guys, be objective, he got much better than in mid 10s, of course not as good as in 90s.


I was gonna say, he was about 75% or a little better when he was opening for Slayer's last big one. Granted, he seemed to mostly be sober at the time too, which seems rare.


----------



## Riffer (Oct 18, 2022)

Yikes, Zakk Wylde Hasn't Learned Pantera Material Yet


Neither can most metalheads - only difference is they're not touring with Pantera.




www.metalsucks.net





Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, it's Zakk Wylde. Obviously he's no slouch and can play. But he's learning Pantera songs not just some 3 chord cover band songs with an easy bridge turn around and no solos. Zakk learned all that Randy stuff which isn't a walk in the park but it's still not Dime's riffs/solos. Some of the Pantera riffs can be a little trickier then they sound and the solos too. I don't want to hear his "version" of the song. I want him to nail it which I'm not sure he will be able to do. Will he be close? Probably. But having pinch harmonics everywhere and having the solos be "mostly" correct are not what I'm into. If this is suppose to be a tribute then play the songs right. In the video below when he's done "I'm Broken", the solo is mostly correct but the timing is a little off in spots and some phrasing isn't right. Nit-picky, I know, but as a huge Dime fan I don't want to hear that. Maybe I'm wrong and he learns it note for note. It's not like he has to learn Dream Theater or Animals As Leaders songs.


----------



## Werecow (Oct 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Yikes, Zakk Wylde Hasn't Learned Pantera Material Yet
> 
> 
> Neither can most metalheads - only difference is they're not touring with Pantera.
> ...



Phil hasn't got enough breath to get the full timing of each little line in lots of places there, then does the typical "struggling to sing, so i'll get the crowd to do it". This is basically what "Pantera" is gonna be. A guitarist that's not quite playing the songs properly, with a completely burnt out vocalist.


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## John (Oct 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Yikes, Zakk Wylde Hasn't Learned Pantera Material Yet
> 
> 
> Neither can most metalheads - only difference is they're not touring with Pantera.
> ...



He'll just default to the same thing he's always done with his own projects and with Ozzy: pinch harmonics on every other note and some sloppy pentatonic minor box patterns for good measure.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Oct 18, 2022)

John said:


> He'll just default to the same thing he's always done with his own projects and with Ozzy: pinch harmonics on every other note and some sloppy pentatonic minor box patterns for good measure.


"Sloppy" Lol


----------



## j3ps3 (Oct 20, 2022)

John said:


> He'll just default to the same thing he's always done with his own projects and with Ozzy: pinch harmonics on every other note and some sloppy pentatonic minor box patterns for good measure.


Chuckled at this. You gotta have some killer chops to be able to call Zakk's playing sloppy


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Oct 20, 2022)

I love Zakk's chops, he has so much style to his bends and vibrato. Funny guy too, he was just on riffhard podcast talking about this.


----------



## beerandbeards (Oct 20, 2022)

Possible guitarist


----------



## RevDrucifer (Oct 20, 2022)

This is good enough for me to be content with. I’m not that anal I’m going to gripe about “he alternate picked it instead of playing it legato! Fuck Zakk!”


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Oct 22, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> This is good enough for me to be content with. I’m not that anal I’m going to gripe about “he alternate picked it instead of playing it legato! Fuck Zakk!”



I just hope he plays the solo on the right pickup. Otherwise, he's not maximizing his cash grabbing capabilities.


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Oct 22, 2022)

I'm pretty sure that he is playing unplugged over the album there. Or its just literally identical to the album 


RevDrucifer said:


> This is good enough for me to be content with. I’m not that anal I’m going to gripe about “he alternate picked it instead of playing it legato! Fuck Zakk!”


----------



## Mprinsje (Oct 23, 2022)

Zakk wouldn't be the first professional guitarist to learn and practice an entire setlist of unknown stuff in a really short amount of time. Didn't Phill Demmel fill in with slayer at the very last minute? He had like two days to learn a whole setlist. These are professional guys, I don't think the issue with this "reunion" is gonna be Zakk's playing.


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## Kwert (Oct 24, 2022)

John said:


> He'll just default to the same thing he's always done with his own projects and with Ozzy: pinch harmonics on every other note and some sloppy pentatonic minor box patterns for good measure.



So the square brackets in the quote indicate something the editor added that Zakk didn’t say, usually to add “clarity” to a quote. I’d wager what he means is that just because he was one of Dime’s best friends doesn’t mean he’s super familiar with Pantera’s material.


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 25, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I'm pretty sure that he is playing unplugged over the album there. Or its just literally identical to the album



I think my ears work very differently than yours do.


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 25, 2022)

Mprinsje said:


> Zakk wouldn't be the first professional guitarist to learn and practice an entire setlist of unknown stuff in a really short amount of time. Didn't Phill Demmel fill in with slayer at the very last minute? He had like two days to learn a whole setlist. These are professional guys, I don't think the issue with this "reunion" is gonna be Zakk's playing.



I think he filled in for a bunch of Lamb Of God dates as well.


----------



## alex_x (Oct 27, 2022)

Zakk Wylde Says Pantera Shows Are Not a Reunion: "It's a Celebration of Pantera and All the Mountains They Conquered"


Zakk Wylde speaks about the upcoming Pantera shows, stating that he feels they are a celebration of the band and not a reunion.




www.metalsucks.net




breakin news, eat this haters!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Oct 27, 2022)

"Celebration" of the ol cash grab is more like it.


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## Albake21 (Oct 27, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> "Celebration" of the ol cash grab is more like it.


Who cares? Pantera fans get to celebrate one of their favorite bands that they haven't been able to see since 2001 while the band members get to get paid while also caring for their friends/and or bandmates while honoring their music. Everybody wins.

Personally? Can't stand Pantera... but I'm happy for those who get to enjoy this.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Oct 29, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> Who cares? Pantera fans get to celebrate one of their favorite bands that they haven't been able to see since 2001 while the band members get to get paid while also caring for their friends/and or bandmates while honoring their music. Everybody wins.
> 
> Personally? Can't stand Pantera... but I'm happy for those who get to enjoy this.


Lol. No. Cemetery Gates is either going to sound like dog shit or Phil's going to lip sync. Not really anything to enjoy there.


----------



## MFB (Nov 11, 2022)

I discovered this band name the other day and was INCREDIBLY disappointed to find out it wasn't just @STRHelvete taking the piss out of everyone





__





Black Pantera - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Shawn (Nov 11, 2022)

I'm so glad I saw them in 1999. It just wouldn't be the same without the Abbott brothers.


----------



## STRHelvete (Nov 11, 2022)

MFB said:


> I discovered this band name the other day and was INCREDIBLY disappointed to find out it wasn't just @STRHelvete taking the piss out of everyone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love that band.


----------



## Riffer (Nov 18, 2022)

Short interview with Zakk where he talks about learning Pantera songs. I totally agree when he says "why would I know those songs". Being in a cover band I'm constantly asked "hey can you guys play :insert popular song name here:" and I more often than not say I don't know that song and people will sometimes be shocked I don't know every popular song ever written. Just because he was close friends with Dime doesn't mean they both sat down and taught each other their entire catalog of songs. But I really hope he learns the stuff as exact as possible. I'm a huge Dime fan and I would like to hear the solos/riffs like they are on the record and not with his Zakk Wylde seasoning sprinkled on all of it.


----------



## Kwert (Nov 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Short interview with Zakk where he talks about learning Pantera songs. I totally agree when he says "why would I know those songs". Being in a cover band I'm constantly asked "hey can you guys play :insert popular song name here:" and I more often than not say I don't know that song and people will sometimes be shocked I don't know every popular song ever written. Just because he was close friends with Dime doesn't mean they both sat down and taught each other their entire catalog of songs. But I really hope he learns the stuff as exact as possible. I'm a huge Dime fan and I would like to hear the solos/riffs like they are on the record and not with his Zakk Wylde seasoning sprinkled on all of it.





This is exactly what I thought he meant when he made the statement about “not knowing songs” a while back. A bunch of publications took that and ran with it to make sensationalist articles saying he wasn’t prepared etc, which of course is nonsense. 

Say what you want about him but he’s a seasoned pro, and would do his best to do justice to what I’m sure he perceives as honouring his best friend.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Nov 18, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Short interview with Zakk where he talks about learning Pantera songs. I totally agree when he says "why would I know those songs". Being in a cover band I'm constantly asked "hey can you guys play :insert popular song name here:" and I more often than not say I don't know that song and people will sometimes be shocked I don't know every popular song ever written. Just because he was close friends with Dime doesn't mean they both sat down and taught each other their entire catalog of songs. But I really hope he learns the stuff as exact as possible. I'm a huge Dime fan and I would like to hear the solos/riffs like they are on the record and not with his Zakk Wylde seasoning sprinkled on all of it.



Lol


----------



## Riffer (Dec 2, 2022)

Someone snuck a video of soundcheck. Sounds pretty solid to me. Phil sounds good. Almost too good considering he's sounded hit or miss in recent years. Hopefully it's all him and he's gotten his vocals in shape for these shows. I have a few things mostly regarding the solo that I could nit pick but it's still better than what I could've pulled off and it's Zakk Fucking Wylde. Definitely going to be on YouTube first thing tomorrow morning looking for videos and setlist.


----------



## protest (Dec 2, 2022)

Live music is fun, and I would pay to see a cover band that has Zakk Wylde and Charlie Benante, so that's my stance on it. I know the internet cares what I think


----------



## Kwert (Dec 2, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Someone snuck a video of soundcheck. Sounds pretty solid to me. Phil sounds good. Almost too good considering he's sounded hit or miss in recent years. Hopefully it's all him and he's gotten his vocals in shape for these shows. I have a few things mostly regarding the solo that I could nit pick but it's still better than what I could've pulled off and it's Zakk Fucking Wylde. Definitely going to be on YouTube first thing tomorrow morning looking for videos and setlist.




I'm deeply suspicious of those vocals, but whatever, everyone who sees them will have fun! Zakk is great and it wasn't like he played the solo badly, it just... it's such an iconic solo and it's hard to hear it played so differently.


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Dec 2, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Someone snuck a video of soundcheck. Sounds pretty solid to me. Phil sounds good. Almost too good considering he's sounded hit or miss in recent years. Hopefully it's all him and he's gotten his vocals in shape for these shows. I have a few things mostly regarding the solo that I could nit pick but it's still better than what I could've pulled off and it's Zakk Fucking Wylde. Definitely going to be on YouTube first thing tomorrow morning looking for videos and setlist.



The people singing along was quite distracting but I get the hype.

I too am a little miffed when I hear the solo not played 100% note for note like Dime would because of how damn iconic that is but i also get that Zakk will put his own spin on it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 2, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Someone snuck a video of soundcheck. Sounds pretty solid to me. Phil sounds good. Almost too good considering he's sounded hit or miss in recent years. Hopefully it's all him and he's gotten his vocals in shape for these shows. I have a few things mostly regarding the solo that I could nit pick but it's still better than what I could've pulled off and it's Zakk Fucking Wylde. Definitely going to be on YouTube first thing tomorrow morning looking for videos and setlist.



Barf. I'm glad to see rock/metal going to shit considering this is the garbage people seem to be encouraging. Rock/metal fans do not deserve good things and the genre is a step or less above blues, both of which are dead genres at this point.


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Dec 3, 2022)




----------



## Andromalia (Dec 3, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I too am a little miffed when I hear the solo not played 100% note for note like Dime would because of how damn iconic that is but i also get that Zakk will put his own spin on it.


Well I have seen Pantera live and Dime didn't play his solos like on the record either. There were slight alterations here and there like mostly everybody, especially because it's pretty easy to screw a bend when you're running everywhere on the stage. For all his personal style can be mocked after becoming a parody of itself, Zakk is a killer stage musician.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 3, 2022)

No surprise they had to tune down that low..


----------



## RevDrucifer (Dec 3, 2022)

I was stoked with what I saw but saying anything positive in relation to Pantera here is like pissing in the wind.


----------



## CanserDYI (Dec 3, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No surprise they had to tune down that low..


Can you really get a good idea what tuning they dropped it to? That video is pretty hard to hear really any real notes


----------



## Andromalia (Dec 3, 2022)

I listened to some other clips and my bet is Cb. It's really low, and maaaybe it's even B. I'm not a Pantera scholar, most of their stuff was around D/D# originally no ?


----------



## jaxadam (Dec 3, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> I listened to some other clips and my bet is Cb. It's really low, and maaaybe it's even B. I'm not a Pantera scholar, most of their stuff was around D/D# originally no ?


 E flat/D flat


----------



## Kwert (Dec 3, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> I listened to some other clips and my bet is Cb. It's really low, and maaaybe it's even B. I'm not a Pantera scholar, most of their stuff was around D/D# originally no ?


Cowboys and Vulgar were in E standard. Those songs were taken down a whole step in the show above.


Edit: yeah, sorry! On closer listen, stuff seems to be in C#, not D.


----------



## Emperoff (Dec 3, 2022)

Skimming on the Youtube videos posted so far, I can't believe that I'm genuinely surprised by Phil, and dissappointed by Zakk. The solos just barely resemble the originals, and they're like 70% Zakk Wylde's signature noodling.

Looks like he only had time to learn the Walk solo


----------



## Kwert (Dec 3, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Skimming on the Youtube videos posted so far, I can't believe that I'm genuinely surprised by Phil, and dissappointed by Zakk. The solos just barely resemble the originals, and they're like 70% Zakk Wylde's signature noodling.
> 
> Looks like he only had time to learn the Walk solo




Kinda what I’ve been feeling too. I think his lead tone is also just… not raunchy enough, at least to my ears.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 3, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Can you really get a good idea what tuning they dropped it to? That video is pretty hard to hear really any real notes


C# standard. Sounds like a step and a half down to me. or step and a quarter


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Dec 3, 2022)

Kwert said:


> Cowboys and Vulgar were in E standard. Those songs were taken down a whole step in the show above.


Pretty sure they were tuned down on Pantera live album 101 proof.


----------



## Xaeldaren (Dec 3, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> C# standard. Sounds like a step and a half down to me. or step and a quarter



This. I had way too much time on my hands today, so I went back and forth between the live Cowboys from Hell and versions that were on youtube that went from D to C#, and C# was bang on.


----------



## Kwert (Dec 3, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> C# standard. Sounds like a step and a half down to me. or step and a quarter



Yeah on closer listen they’re playing in C#


----------



## youngthrasher9 (Dec 3, 2022)

I was surprised that Phil sounded this good tbh. I am not surprised that Charlie is killing it, however. 

Zakk could’ve been replaced with a few people performance wise, here, I think. I actually think that his guitar was having tuning issues during A New Level, but I don’t know for sure.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 3, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Pretty sure they were tuned down on Pantera live album 101 proof.



Standard tuned. Maybe down a few cents.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 3, 2022)

I'll give props to Charlie though. Dude doesn't get enough credit for how great he is.


----------



## NoodleFace (Dec 3, 2022)

I thought it sounded good. It's zakk playing Pantera. But I'm a zakk fanboy


----------



## Jarmake (Dec 3, 2022)

It sounded like pantera with Zakk Wylde on guitar. Phil is in a great shape these days. Saw a couple of Down gigs from this summer and he sounded super solid there too.

Got to say I wasn't keeping up any hopes of this being any good, but I'm glad I was wrong.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 3, 2022)

Chances are good that if Phil went from sounding like trash to sounding surprisingly better, he isn't even vocalizing at all, but rather miming to a track.


----------



## Riffer (Dec 3, 2022)

Pantera is a little tricky with tunings. On the records they usually set a tuner to 425hz and then tuned the guitar. So like on Vulgar you’d set your tuner to 425hz and tune to E. You’ll basically be in-between E and Eb actually. Same thing with Far Beyond Driven. Tune your guitar to D using the 425hz setting and you’ll be flatter than D but sharper than C# and you can play along to I’m Broken, 5 Minutes Alone, etc. CFH I think is just E standard but just slightly flat. So maybe they tuned to 430hz or close to that on that one. For the dropped tuning songs it’s the same thing with the HZ setting just dropping the low string to whatever you need to to match the tuning you’re in. 

Live I’m assuming it’s the same or maybe they ditched the 425hz for live stuff and just tuned to 440hz, I’m not sure.

I’d also recommend Attilas YouTube pages for tips/tricks on anything Pantera related. He’s has perfected the riffs/solos/techniques.


----------



## Sammy J (Dec 3, 2022)

Damn, legit teared up a little watching some of these clips. They sound awesome, I hope they tour Australia at some point.


----------



## protest (Dec 3, 2022)

Riffer said:


> Pantera is a little tricky with tunings. On the records they usually set a tuner to 425hz and then tuned the guitar. So like on Vulgar you’d set your tuner to 425hz and tune to E. You’ll basically be in-between E and Eb actually. Same thing with Far Beyond Driven. Tune your guitar to D using the 425hz setting and you’ll be flatter than D but sharper than C# and you can play along to I’m Broken, 5 Minutes Alone, etc. CFH I think is just E standard but just slightly flat. So maybe they tuned to 430hz or close to that on that one. For the dropped tuning songs it’s the same thing with the HZ setting just dropping the low string to whatever you need to to match the tuning you’re in.
> 
> Live I’m assuming it’s the same or maybe they ditched the 425hz for live stuff and just tuned to 440hz, I’m not sure.
> 
> I’d also recommend Attilas YouTube pages for tips/tricks on anything Pantera related. He’s has perfected the riffs/solos/techniques.




Yep, I always heard they tuned down a quarter step from E and then later D, but you probably laid out the actual way they did it lol. 

Dropping tuning live isn't uncommon. I think it just stands out more on the older songs that were closer to standard.

But I know SS.org isn't about to complain about playing music in lower tunings, right?.... Right?


----------



## cardinal (Dec 3, 2022)

I listened to some of a clip of Walk from whatever show they just played and thought it sounded awesome. Surprised Anselmo has anything left but he sounds fine.


----------



## Steinmetzify (Dec 3, 2022)

Not to be a downer, as obviously this is happening whether I like it or not. 

Of the vids I’ve seen 5 Minutes Alone is the closest. 

I get that Zakk is going to put his spin on it but fuck all that, he’s playing iconic metal songs so no. 

He’s done this for years for Ozzy so he should be familiar. This is not his show. STFU and play them how Dime did or GTFO. 

Charlie is doing ok, not great. Rex needs this Ampegs, and Phil is doing ok. As said above 5MA it the best of what I’ve seen, the rest is test material to see if he can still do it. 

All that said, it is WEIRD AS FUCK to hear these songs played without Dime and Vinnie; I dunno about y’all, but I can tell just using my ears. 

It’s WEIRD.


----------



## Steinmetzify (Dec 3, 2022)

This takes it for the best of them so far


----------



## Jarmake (Dec 4, 2022)

Jarmake said:


> It sounded like pantera with Zakk Wylde on guitar. Phil is in a great shape these days. Saw a couple of Down gigs from this summer and he sounded super solid there too.
> 
> Got to say I wasn't keeping up any hopes of this being any good, but I'm glad I was wrong.





Spaced Out Ace said:


> Chances are good that if Phil went from sounding like trash to sounding surprisingly better, he isn't even vocalizing at all, but rather miming to a track.



Nah, he sounded great with down too and those gigs were pro shot and there is NO way he lip synced those songs. I do firmly believe he has been training for this and he still has it after all these years.

Of he was lip syncing there would be no reason for him to not be perfect on those high pitched screams... Which he isn't in these clips.

Besides it's not like he's suddenly just magically better sounding, he's been slowly getting better during the years. At one point he sounded like dropping a ton of gravel on a rusty metal, but then he started improving. Who knows what he did during covid lockdowns... Maybe he got bored and started missing playing live and decided to give a fuck, then started training again?


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## Xaeldaren (Dec 4, 2022)

Tuning down to C# and not even attempting to sing Cemetary Gates probably helps.


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## Andromalia (Dec 4, 2022)

Jarmake said:


> Of he was lip syncing there would be no reason for him to not be perfect on those high pitched screams...


I'd certainly make sure it wasn't perfect if I was the program manager. Like, trying not to make it too obvious. 
Then, people would be surprised at how much 6 months of prep with healthy living, no alcohol etc can do to someone's voice.


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## SamSam (Dec 4, 2022)

If you listen to him speaking in between songs in the clips, you can hear that even speaking, his voice sounds much clearer than it did a few years ago. He must be doing something to mitigate the damage previously done because he used to sound like he drank gravel.


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## jonsick (Dec 5, 2022)

I watched the full video this morning.

Pantera were on point, this is a great recreation, reunion, tribute, whatever you want to call it. I really don't care about the semantics of it. HOWEVER, Zakk Wylde is the weak link in this chain. I know Dimebag's shoes are hard to fill, but really there were a lot of errors on Zakk's part that was just egregious. 

It's like, you're in band rehearsal and someone says, "Hey let's jam <insert some well known song by some metal band here, Enter Sandman may be a good example>". And you have that guitarist who doesn't really know the riff, but plays something sort of like it that he thinks is right, but because he's the big knob of the band nobody wants to correct him. And then it just gets out of hand and now you've for some reason put it in a live setlist and you're playing it, but that one riff here is just not correct. You know it, the audience know it, but for whatever reason, correcting him means a big massive ol' drama.

Zakk Wylde is that guy. I've been listening to Pantera a long time, I've been playing guitar a long time, I've been playing Pantera songs a long time. I'm not saying I should be there and not him or whatever silliness, but bloody hell some of those errors were just stupid. 

Did nobody say anything? "Hey Zakk... that solo for Walk, it's way off dude... here, check out YouTube for any one of 150 examples of people who are showing you how to play it step by step..." or "5 Minutes Alone, that riff sounds dodgy mate without that pivot off the pedal note... could you run back and check that? I know Rex is covering your ass for all of this, but you could at least try to nail this, we're coming back out as Pantera and we GOTTA nail it!" 

"Why do we gotta nail it"

"Cuz there's some muddyfunster on the Internet that has seen two separate Pantera tribute acts in the last decade and he says they pulled off those guitar parts just perfectly!"

I also didn't care too much for the pop-band graphic display in the background, but hey, that's not exactly a huge deal.


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## p0ke (Dec 5, 2022)

Checked some videos on youtube, and damn, the goosebumps! I would've never expected Phil to sound that good again and Charlie's nailing it note for note. Setlist was great too. But yeah, as was said already, Zakk's the weak link here. Hopefully he'll improve as the tour progresses though.


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## nightflameauto (Dec 5, 2022)

Everybody pissing on Phil's vocals miss the Slayer tour where he was the opener? He was sounding pretty decent then and that was pre-COVID. He's had nothing but time on his hands since then to get better.

I'm not gonna bother commenting on the rest of it. Zakk is Zakkin', which we all expected. I see no point in throwing the hissy fit it deserves. So, meh.


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## ClownShoes (Dec 5, 2022)

Phil sounds surprisingly good.

Zakk's a bit rough but thats the first show of many.

He's not using Dime's rig so of course it sounds a bit different. I can't imagine Zakk playing a solid state rig with shit tonnes of gain that's barely controllable.



> _He said: "I'll be using my guitars, effects, and pedals, a lot of the pedals that Dime actually gave me, and yeah, I'll definitely be using some of Dime's pedals and stuff, too.
> 
> “I'm still working out how it'll all come together, but I am looking forward to seeing how it all flows once I do. Dime's tech, Grady, is gonna be coming down too, which is great."_


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## fantom (Dec 5, 2022)

Sounds pretty good to me. Doesn't sound perfect, but I'd be happy if I got that product for my money.



Andromalia said:


> I listened to some other clips and my bet is Cb. It's really low, and maaaybe it's even B. I'm not a Pantera scholar, most of their stuff was around D/D# originally no ?



As many have said, Pantera's last few albums were known for tuning somewhere "around" C#. They didn't tune everything to a tuner, so it was typically between C# and D.


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## zw470 (Dec 5, 2022)

Huge Zakk fan (hence the "zw") so it pains me to say this, but unlike Zakk jonsick up there nailed it. It doesn't like "Zakk playing Pantera" it sounds like Zakk playing something incorrectly.


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## Matt08642 (Dec 5, 2022)

I had said elsewhere that I had faith in Zakk due to being a pro musician for 40 years, and I still have faith he _could_ learn the solos note for note (since literal children on YouTube do), but he definitely phoned in the solos with his own brand of shredding lol. Oh well, still cool that Phil sounds great!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 5, 2022)

In regards to Zakk not nailing everything 100%, does anyone think Dimebag himself is lookin’ down on this all bummed out? I certainly don’t think so.

Of course there are plenty of guys out there who already know those solos note for note, but they weren’t one of Dime’s best friends and I think looking at it any other way aside from “two remaining members of Pantera and best friends of Vinnie and Dime paying tribute to the band” is missing the point.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 5, 2022)

And as far as Phil goes, pretty easy to figure out why he sounds the way he does; he’s not screaming the sh*t out of everything. His voice is most likely in a perpetual state of grit anytime he gets above speaking volume, if he sticks to that he should be able to stay consistent. 

No long ass high screams, no guttural lows, he’s just staying in that safe, fry/chest voice zone the whole time, which is pretty cool because it shows he’s taking it seriously and isn’t just up there drinking like a maniac and not giving a shit.


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## p0ke (Dec 5, 2022)

I guess I agree with what Ola said in his reaction video about Zakk's playing - it's not perfect and sounds Zakkyfied, but the essence is there. Even when he plays his own take on the solos, the feeling is close enough that it just works out.

... Except the solo for Strength Beyond Strength, that just sounded horrible 

Some of the riffs were a tad off too, but he'll probably improve throughout the tour.


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## Fantomas (Dec 5, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Chances are good that if Phil went from sounding like trash to sounding surprisingly better, he isn't even vocalizing at all, but rather miming to a track.


I honestly don't believe that. If you look at his performance of a new level it becomes pretty clear. He is basically Vince Neiiling half of the song,


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## protest (Dec 5, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> In regards to Zakk not nailing everything 100%, does anyone think Dimebag himself is lookin’ down on this all bummed out? I certainly don’t think so.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of guys out there who already know those solos note for note, but they weren’t one of Dime’s best friends and I think looking at it any other way aside from “two remaining members of Pantera and best friends of Vinnie and Dime paying tribute to the band” is missing the point.



Agreed . You'd be pretty happy with one of your fans that you inspired filling in for you in their dream band... But you'd probably be happier if it was one of your best friends instead.


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## soul_lip_mike (Dec 5, 2022)

Is Phil sober now?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 5, 2022)

People are actually getting teary eyed and goosebumps over this shit? Lmfao. Rock and metal fans do not deserve anything good from the genre until they get a fucking clue.


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## jaxadam (Dec 5, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Rock and metal fans do not deserve anything good from the genre until they get a fucking clue.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 5, 2022)

jaxadam said:


>


I have a big problem with people and their obsession with nostalgia acts. 

Before anyone says it: As a KISS fan, I wish they'd fuck off already. They are the biggest of offenders with the nostalgia act bullshit. Reunion tours, nostalgia, farewell tours, etc. can all go fuck themselves with a rusty meat hook.


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## jaxadam (Dec 5, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I have a big problem with people and their obsession with nostalgia acts.
> 
> Before anyone says it: As a KISS fan, I wish they'd fuck off already. They are the biggest of offenders with the nostalgia act bullshit. Reunion tours, nostalgia, farewell tours, etc. can all go fuck themselves with a rusty meat hook.



But KISS sucks, so that's understandable!


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## Albake21 (Dec 5, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> People are actually getting teary eyed and goosebumps over this shit? Lmfao. Rock and metal fans do not deserve anything good from the genre until they get a fucking clue.


If it's not for you, it's not for you man, we get it. But you've done nothing but spread hate in this thread over and over. 

Instead of being a cunt, let others enjoy themselves. There's no need for gate keeping, especially in music.


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## soul_lip_mike (Dec 5, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I have a big problem with people and their obsession with nostalgia acts.
> 
> Before anyone says it: As a KISS fan, I wish they'd fuck off already. They are the biggest of offenders with the nostalgia act bullshit. Reunion tours, nostalgia, farewell tours, etc. can all go fuck themselves with a rusty meat hook.


Why though? If it makes people happy to see them it shouldn't affect you.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 5, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> If it's not for you, it's not for you man, we get it. But you've done nothing but spread hate in this thread over and over.
> 
> Instead of being a cunt, let others enjoy themselves. There's no need for gate keeping, especially in music.


How about no?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 5, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Why though? If it makes people happy to see them it shouldn't affect you.


Just a refresher: Metal and rock being considered genres only "dads" listen to (or grandpas, at this point) is a large portion of why kids couldn't give a shit about either genre. Kids and teens were why both thrived. When rock and metal thrived, bands like Greta Van Fleet would've been laughed out of the building and shit like a Led Zeppelin reunion would've crashed and burned (and did). Now it is an old folks home for bands who are like the spoiled milk you somehow forgot about in the back of the fridge.


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## jaxadam (Dec 5, 2022)

Sounds like something a KISS fan would say.


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## soul_lip_mike (Dec 5, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Just a refresher: Metal and rock being considered genres only "dads" listen to (or grandpas, at this point) is a large portion of why kids couldn't give a shit about either genre. Kids and teens were why both thrived. When rock and metal thrived, bands like Greta Van Fleet would've been laughed out of the building and shit like a Led Zeppelin reunion would've crashed and burned (and did). Now it is an old folks home for bands who are like the spoiled milk you somehow forgot about in the back of the fridge.


Still confused why people liking something you don't affects you. /shrug


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## Dooky (Dec 6, 2022)

Umm, excuse me guys but, have you all forgotten that anything related to Phil/Pantera/Dimebag is not in accordance with the principals of political correctness these days? I think it's important to remember that they said some naughty things back in the day that got peoples nickers in a bunch. Whilst you all might be finding some enjoyment out of their music I really think you should all cease and desist saying positive things about their music and musical talents so as not to make the people with delicate sensibilities feel uncomfortable or offended.


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## j3ps3 (Dec 6, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Just a refresher: Metal and rock being considered genres only "dads" listen to (or grandpas, at this point) is a large portion of why kids couldn't give a shit about either genre. Kids and teens were why both thrived. When rock and metal thrived, bands like Greta Van Fleet would've been laughed out of the building and shit like a Led Zeppelin reunion would've crashed and burned (and did). Now it is an old folks home for bands who are like the spoiled milk you somehow forgot about in the back of the fridge.


What's your point, though? Because it's a "dad genre" it entitles you to be an asshole?

Edit: If anything you're the one who seems to obsessed about this. It's clear you don't enjoy the band yet you feel the need to be commenting here constantly. You seem to give more shit about this than everybody else in this thread combined with your edgelord comments.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 6, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> How about no?



I’m genuinely curios about this; does ranting about it actually provide you with some kind of relief or pleasure? How is your life better for shitting all over something other people enjoy that you’ve already admitted, profusely, you do not?

Serious question. I’d be leery of citing “it’s a discussion forum”, because you’re not having a discussion, just kind of ranting to yourself.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 6, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Umm, excuse me guys but, have you all forgotten that anything related to Phil/Pantera/Dimebag is not in accordance with the principals of political correctness these days? I think it's important to remember that they said some naughty things back in the day that got peoples nickers in a bunch. Whilst you all might be finding some enjoyment out of their music I really think you should all cease and desist saying positive things about their music and musical talents so as not to make the people with delicate sensibilities feel uncomfortable or offended.


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## Albake21 (Dec 6, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> How about no?


Dude, I'm not even a Pantera fan, genuinely not at all. But I'm just here excited for others as a legendary band is _somewhat_ back. People enjoy it, people are celebrating a band they grew up with. Bringing back feelings and memories they haven't felt in years. Honoring their favorite musicians.

How miserable do you have to be to shit on that and talk as if no one should be allowed to incapsulate that feeling?


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 6, 2022)

ITT: 
- Actual fans giving legitimate critiques and having a constructive discussion. 
- NO FUN ALLOWED. 
- Saying that the most guitar-oriented genres of music are dying and should die because the Zoomers said so... On a guitar forum.


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## jaxadam (Dec 6, 2022)

Dooky said:


> Umm, excuse me guys but, have you all forgotten that anything related to Phil/Pantera/Dimebag is not in accordance with the principals of political correctness these days? I think it's important to remember that they said some naughty things back in the day that got peoples nickers in a bunch. Whilst you all might be finding some enjoyment out of their music I really think you should all cease and desist saying positive things about their music and musical talents so as not to make the people with delicate sensibilities feel uncomfortable or offended.



I mean, they did the best they could, they found a guy from a band named Pride and Glory that played a guitar with a confederate flag on it!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 6, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Sounds like something a KISS fan would say.


Have we missed the part where I laid a massive amount of blame on KISS for this kind of crap, or...?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 6, 2022)

j3ps3 said:


> What's your point, though? Because it's a "dad genre" it entitles you to be an asshole?
> 
> Edit: If anything you're the one who seems to obsessed about this. It's clear you don't enjoy the band yet you feel the need to be commenting here constantly. You seem to give more shit about this than everybody else in this thread combined with your edgelord comments.


I don't enjoy a couple guys prostituting a band without the main components of that band around anymore for a pay check. I also think it'd be better to let sleeping dogs lie, because inevitably, Phil is going to say some stupid shit that'll look like a neo-Nazi rally. 

I'd actually prefer new bands to be around to refresh the genre, but instead we mainly have nostalgia acts and bands who have 2 influences between the members.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Dec 6, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> I’m genuinely curios about this; does ranting about it actually provide you with some kind of relief or pleasure? How is your life better for shitting all over something other people enjoy that you’ve already admitted, profusely, you do not?
> 
> Serious question. I’d be leery of citing “it’s a discussion forum”, because you’re not having a discussion, just kind of ranting to yourself.


Fair enough, Drew. I'm just rather sick to death of the gross commercialism that rock and metal has turned into. It's fine when they are putting out music, creatively vibrant, etc because that is the point. However, bands who have the lesser half of the non original members parading around as that band, nothing of worth to offer, it is gross. 

What's even worse is that the bulk of bands less than 10 years old have either the inability to write a riff or have a very obvious influence with nothing else to show for it. Basically GVF syndrome. There are other bands who have done this before GVF, of course, so the poster child changes every 5 or so years. 

To reiterate, I place a lot of blame at KISS' doorstep. 

Hey though, at least I got called a cunt. That was worth a laugh. Thanks.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 6, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Fair enough, Drew. I'm just rather sick to death of the gross commercialism that rock and metal has turned into. It's fine when they are putting out music, creatively vibrant, etc because that is the point. However, bands who have the lesser half of the non original members parading around as that band, nothing of worth to offer, it is gross.
> 
> What's even worse is that the bulk of bands less than 10 years old have either the inability to write a riff or have a very obvious influence with nothing else to show for it. Basically GVF syndrome. There are other bands who have done this before GVF, of course, so the poster child changes every 5 or so years.
> 
> ...



I can understand that side, I’m just not cynical enough to believe everything is done for the sake of money. And I’ve said it elsewhere, but if there are thousands, possibly millions of people in the scope of a world tour lasting several years, getting to have a blast at the show and enjoying it, where does that fit into it all? 

I can’t pigeonhole something as “just for the money” when many more people will enjoy the show/band/whatever, than there are people making money off it. 

Same thing with the ”Metallica only tours for the money”, but when I’ve seen them, I see 4 guys appearing to have a blast onstage, certainly don’t “need” the money at this point and 15K+ people with their arms raised in the air throwing the horns and having a blast. 

I used to have the same sentiment regarding pop music/boy band shit, but ultimately, there are people who have the same feelings towards those bands that I do Floyd or Alice In Chains or you with KISS back in the day, so if it’s providing them with some joy, who am I to talk shit about it, ya know? No one is getting hurt by it, so I can’t really find a good enough reason to hate on it and it’s easy enough to not listen to. 

As for current bands, there’s always been shitty music being made, but again, there are people out there who will get something out of it that I don’t, more power to those bands and their fans. Perfect example is Bullet For My Valentine, I saw them in 2018 at a festival show and immediately saw the singer lipsynching and since I had a few drinks in me, decided to start ranting about it. 

All I did was piss off the people around me who were having a good time. That dude is still out there lip syncing, the fans are still enjoying it and me being pissy about it did absolutely nothing but cause a few people to think I was an asshole. 

I think overall, the world and specifically social media, has gotten to be such a negative place where everyone is so anxious to tear each other apart, I’m just over it all. It’s a lot more fun when we’re lifting each other up, regardless if we enjoy it or not, it doesn’t hurt anyone to hope that a stranger has a good time enjoying a particular band or show.


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## nightflameauto (Dec 6, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I don't enjoy a couple guys prostituting a band without the main components of that band around anymore for a pay check. I also think it'd be better to let sleeping dogs lie, because inevitably, Phil is going to say some stupid shit that'll look like a neo-Nazi rally.
> 
> I'd actually prefer new bands to be around to refresh the genre, but instead we mainly have nostalgia acts and bands who have 2 influences between the members.


There's plenty of newer bands writing great tunes, you just don't see them in arenas typically.

Nostalgia's always going to exist, as are cash-grabs. *SHRUG*

The only big positive in something like this is: Hey, at least it's real music being played live. I have a hard time being upset by that, even if it doesn't tickle my dangly bits.


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## Andromalia (Dec 6, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> In regards to Zakk not nailing everything 100%, does anyone think Dimebag himself is lookin’ down on this all bummed out? I certainly don’t think so.


Pretty sure Vinnie would be pissed at this tour even existing, given his relationship with Phil Anselmo.


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## Opion (Dec 6, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> Pretty sure Vinnie would be pissed at this tour even existing, given his relationship with Phil Anselmo.


This right here...it seems like Vinnie was the last holdout that kept anything like this from ever happening. I imagine he held on to his resentment for Phil to the very end. Here we are, 2 years or so later, and Pantera are back...it just feels a bit not-right to me. I really wish that they had buried the hatchet years before and were able to play this show with Zakk on stage, but it's too late for that now.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 6, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> Pretty sure Vinnie would be pissed at this tour even existing, given his relationship with Phil Anselmo.



So…..Zakk should learn everything 100% correctly because Vinnie never made up with Phil? I’m having a hard time understanding how what I said has anything to do with Vinnie and Phil’s relationship. 

Maybe someone can find Vinnie and Dime’s father to tell him how wrong he was to sign off on this tour, since he’s the one Vinnie felt was best to speak for him in his absence.


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## Riffer (Dec 6, 2022)

I was talking to my fiancé about this since she's seen me watch about every video I could find of the first show. She asked me what's the big deal and I gave her the rundown. I told her that Zakk is playing the solos in essence but not exactly, a few parts seemed off in the timing, and there's a few little things he's missing like certain phrases in the solo. She kind of rolled her eyes and was like "you're being too picky". I did agree with her that it is picky but then I explained it to her like this.

N'Sync is one of her favorite boy bands from when she was in her teens. Let's say Justin Timberlake (the stand out of the group and Dimebag in this scenario) and JC Chasez (the 2nd best part of the group and Vinnie in this case) have died. The remaining members get close friends of Justin and JC to join them to honor the groups music 20+ years after the group has done it's last show. The guy they get to do JC's parts almost nails it and you can tell he did his homework but the guy who takes Justin's spot sings close to the way Justin sang but skipped some "memorable" vocal lines or came in too early/late in some spots, or changes a few words that everyone knew. After I explained it that way she could kind of see my point as to why some people are a little irked about Zakk taking liberties with the solos and some riffs (A New Level after the crushing opening riff).


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## gabito (Dec 6, 2022)

They sound good as a band IMO.

I'd expect that from Charlie Benante and Rex. Good for Phil Anselmo! It looks like he's been practising. I hope he's learned his lesson and this time avoids saying something "controversial" in public, too.

To be honest Zakk's leads sound more like "I didn't learn the parts very well, but here you have a few recognizable parts plus my trademark pentatonic runs and wild vibrato!" than "I'm making the parts my own" (or adding his own style to them). I never thought I'd be able to say this, but here it goes: I can play some of those solos better than he does  (but only a few).

Oh, well, maybe he'll improve along the way. Or maybe that's what he wants to do. Not everybody in the audience memorized every-fucking-solo-note-by-note like some of us did anyway.


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## bostjan (Dec 6, 2022)

All you headbangers out there expecting Zakk to sound any less like Zakk are just kind of making everyone else bite their tongue to keep from saying "told you..." but I'm still thinking it'll be a miracle if this tour finishes at all. Get Phil on the road again and see how long before he relapses and does something stupid is the name of the game.

Otherwise, this might as well be Phil and Rex with Ringo and Paul McCartney on guitar and then call it the Beatles.


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## Musiscience (Dec 6, 2022)

Pantera without Vinnie and Dimebag is like bread without dairy and gluten. You only really have it if you have no other options. And even then you know it sucks.

Hard pass on that tour.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 6, 2022)

I have no idea why anyone is complaining because Pantera sucks just as hard now as they used to lol

I only fuck with Diamond Darrell.


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## nightflameauto (Dec 6, 2022)

bostjan said:


> All you headbangers out there expecting Zakk to sound any less like Zakk are just kind of making everyone else bite their tongue to keep from saying "told you..." but I'm still thinking it'll be a miracle if this tour finishes at all. Get Phil on the road again and see how long before he relapses and does something stupid is the name of the game.
> 
> Otherwise, this might as well be Phil and Rex with Ringo and Paul McCartney on guitar and then call it the Beatles.


I don't know, man. Phil survived touring with Slayer, Ministry, and Primus for fuck sake. If having to be back stage with Kerry King every night didn't drive him over the edge, I can't see this group doing it.


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## bostjan (Dec 6, 2022)

nightflameauto said:


> I don't know, man. Phil survived touring with Slayer, Ministry, and Primus for fuck sake. If having to be back stage with Kerry King every night didn't drive him over the edge, I can't see this group doing it.


You saying Phil had not done stupid things on the road?!


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## nightflameauto (Dec 6, 2022)

bostjan said:


> You saying Phil had not done stupid things on the road?!


Easy there. I'm saying no such thing. Phil was a drama magnet back in the day when on the road.

I'm saying that whole Slayer tour a while back seemed pretty tight-laced. It didn't raise the horrible stories like previous Pantera tours did. Granted, they were the little band of nothings on that tour. Maybe being the big draw will have the same effect it did back in the day.

But, strange as it may sound, some people do eventually grow up. Not saying I have 100% faith in Phil on any level, but it's possible.

I guess I was impressed with his performance and most of his demeanor on that last tour. As the last live show I may ever go to, it may just be sitting in my rose colored glasses view at the moment though.


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## manu80 (Dec 7, 2022)

Benante sounds really good. I wish Zakk would have ditched his BLS look and wylde guitars for those concerts....


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## STRHelvete (Dec 8, 2022)




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## warhead (Dec 8, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> Pretty sure Vinnie would be pissed at this tour even existing, given his relationship with Phil Anselmo.


I remember 20 something years(probably closer to 25 at least) ago, so many were making jokes about Vinnie, calling him a fat slob and many, many other things. While now, seems like so many are worried about what would Vinnie say about all of this.......how times change.
I'd say things are on offer. If you want to see it - do, if you don't want to - don't. If some older heads have seen the band in their prime and don't care, lucky guys, I understand. If someone has never seen them and want to see whatever this is - then do. Young people have the option to go see some kick ass young bands instead of this, but am sure majority would prefer to spend money on this. Would bet that most youngsters don't know every nuance of Dimebag's playing by heart and will be OK with some heavy hitting riffs and solos.


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## Musiscience (Dec 19, 2022)

This morning I was listening to Wes Hauch clips again, as one does, and now strongly believe he should have been on this tour rather than Zack. I know Dime and Zack were friends and all, but Wes is just so spot on.


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## Pat (Dec 19, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> This morning I was listening to Wes Hauch clips again, as one does, and now strongly believe he should have been on this tour rather than Zack. I know Dime and Zack were friends and all, but Wes is just so spot on.



I used to think the same, but recently found this guy who I think just edges him in emulating Dime


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## ArtDecade (Dec 19, 2022)

^ None of those guys sells tickets like Zakk. Pinch Harmonics to the bank.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 19, 2022)

If we're talking about guitarists that can nail the style, a friend sold me on Gina from Baroness. 




But yeah it all comes down to...


ArtDecade said:


> ^ None of those guys sells tickets like Zakk. Pinch Harmonics to the bank.


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## MFB (Dec 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If we're talking about guitarists that can nail the style, a friend sold me on Gina from Baroness.
> 
> But yeah it all comes down to...



Bold of you to use the word friend for me, but OK


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 19, 2022)

MFB said:


> Bold of you to use the word friend for me, but OK


Wait it was you?  I coulda swore a friend of mine on Twitter showed me.


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## MFB (Dec 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait it was you?  I coulda swore a friend of mine on Twitter showed me.



I can't confirm or deny, but I've been name dropping her since post ...#82 in here so I'm taking credit for it, depending on how much time you've spent on this thread vs. talking about it on Twitter


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## Dooky (Dec 19, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If we're talking about guitarists that can nail the style, a friend sold me on Gina from Baroness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really? No doubt she's good. But I've heard plenty of other guitarists that play Dime's stuff way better than her. 
If we're talking female guitarists, check out Kayle Kent on Youtube. I'd say she plays Dime's solos better than Gina.


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## JimF (Dec 21, 2022)




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## j3ps3 (Dec 21, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> This morning I was listening to Wes Hauch clips again, as one does, and now strongly believe he should have been on this tour rather than Zack. I know Dime and Zack were friends and all, but Wes is just so spot on.



IMO his touch is off just as much as Wylde's is. I mean, it sounds great - just not at all like Dimebag.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 21, 2022)

It’s really too bad Zakk isn’t nailing everything 100%….the audience would have a much better time if he did, I’m guessing they’re all heading to the gates in this video to get the hell out of there and that’s what’s causing all the commotion-



Damn….it’s really bad….here it is happening again at another show…



I hope all those people managed to get out safely and were able to avoid Zakk butchering the whole show. It’s really too bad no one is enjoying these shows because they’re only a cash grab.


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