# Full band thru a PC live?



## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

My idea was to run whole band via DAW thru PC Rack for live purposes.

PROS: Extremely silent stage with in ear monitoring, no feedback, clean signal with no mic clipping, bad mixes or anything. Ability to add synths and effects to song via DAW. Mixes could be controled on pc which would also give great versatility, Plug and play! Just plug all into interface and connect PA (in mono mix). Only 1 power cord (from power conditioner). Easy mobility, just one rack to move around and PA, no more setting up drums for a hour and micing stuff up. Album like quality live. Click track for drummer from DAW.

CONS: It's a pc, it can crap out and ur whole band would be dead. Latency probably? Not sure if rack power conditioner can drive that much power for PC and PA (but PA could be plugged into separate outlet).

Setup: 1 Vocal mic (XLR), 2 guitars (TRS), bass (TRS, TRS to DI and XLR to interface?). E-Drums midi-to-USB thru Superior Drummer.
PC rack: power conditioner, pc in 4U rack, interface in rack.

What do you think?
And if it would be possible, would latency be the prob? Also, which interface could do that kind of thing?


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## AK DRAGON (Jan 31, 2012)

Another possible option to that idea is to:

iPod 
Alesis i Multimix 8 Mixer (ipod dock)

It would be quieter (no fans)
Wouldn't have to worry about a laptop being broken stolen
No EMI from the laptop to the mics
Stereo 
big buttons and wheel for ipod search/play/stop


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

Nope, you cant run ampsims + impulses thru mixer (sims for both guitars, bass, vocal processing, drum software and processing) or control stuff in DAW via midi pedal. PC would be 4U rackmounted.
Mono mix because it's better live IMO (if ur standing near one speaker u can't hear the other side).
And since when are 20-30dB fans a problem when a guitar strings are louder?

I'm mostly wondering would latency be the problem with that setup? 3 instruments and Mic played back at once.

EDIT: I would already use rackmounted pc with interface and power conditioner to record my stuff home. It would be a waste of money to buy an iPod and separate mixer.


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## JPhoenix19 (Jan 31, 2012)

Well, it is theoretically possible to do that. You'd need some serious processing power to handle all that running at once with low latency, though. Your best bet would be a PCI audio interface with a Breakout box or rack extention (check out the M-audio 1010 rack), for the lowest latency and amount of ins-outs.

Oh, and if you're not careless with your PC you shouldn't have to worry about critical failure or crashing.


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm guessing that a 3GHz 6 core processor would do the trick with 16GB RAM and a stable motherboard.
I was thinking something like PreSonus FireStudio Project or M-AUDIO - ProFire 2626 - High-Definition 26-in/26-out FireWire  for it's firewire.
If guitars and bass would have around 10ms latency it would be good.


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## AK DRAGON (Jan 31, 2012)

Ouch I missed the bus entirely. 
Well my suggestion would work if it was all recorded and not set as impulses for re-amping 

If you use a 4U computer case you need to make sure it's going to be short enough to fit in your rack case. A good portion of them are too long for rack cases


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

I'd be making the pc rack by myself and case also  I like to improvise like that. 
This is my model for the pc rack, it have enough space to shorten it if needed.






This is 1:1 ratio model.

I'm just fiddling with theory for now.

EDIT: RAID 1 instead of RAID 0 (Raid 0 is for doubling performance not for mirroring)


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

So any thoughts about this? Would any of those 2 interfaces do the work?


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## velvetkevorkian (Jan 31, 2012)

Bear in mind that what sounds good out front might not be what you want in your monitors, so ideally you want a way to have different mixes for each member and another for the FOH, and preferably some way of adjusting the FOH mix while you're playing. Do you run your own sound at the moment?

If you can overcome those hurdles, I don't see a problem with this. CPU power is cheap!


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## Metal_Webb (Jan 31, 2012)

Chuck as much power as it as you can to get over the latency. Make sure you put on a 64 bit OS so you can make use of all that tasty RAM. If you can find one, it may be an idea to try using the new Thunderbolt connector over firewire. Has a much, much higher data transfer rate. However seeing as it's a really new standard, I'd doubt there'd be interfaces with a connector on them.


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

Thunderbolt is MAC only as I know. And I never saw any interface with that connector.
64 bit is a default anyways. I stopped using 32bit stuff 2 years ago.
But I'm thinking that I could get around 10ms for 4 instruments at time with a good interface like PreSonus FireStudio Project or M-AUDIO - ProFire 2626 - High-Definition 26-in/26-out FireWire


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

velvetkevorkian said:


> Bear in mind that what sounds good out front might not be what you want in your monitors, so ideally you want a way to have different mixes for each member and another for the FOH, and preferably some way of adjusting the FOH mix while you're playing. Do you run your own sound at the moment?
> 
> If you can overcome those hurdles, I don't see a problem with this. CPU power is cheap!



I was thinking it could be done even without monitoring if PA was put behind drummer on each side and if Mix was MONO. That way all would hear the same. OR in ear monitoring.


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## velvetkevorkian (Jan 31, 2012)

Thunderbolt is meant to be coming to PCs sometime this year, and interfaces are starting to appear that use it, but prices are high and choice is low.


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

velvetkevorkian said:


> Thunderbolt is meant to be coming to PCs sometime this year, and interfaces are starting to appear that use it, but prices are high and choice is low.



Once I get to make this plan come to life there might be good interfaces for cheap buck. I'm only doing theory for now.


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## velvetkevorkian (Jan 31, 2012)

xeonblade said:


> I was thinking it could be done even without monitoring if PA was put behind drummer on each side and if Mix was MONO. That way all would hear the same. OR in ear monitoring.


I would definitely want to try that before investing in the kit. IME a lot of band members won't be happy with all getting the same mix, e.g. my old drummer always wanted tons of snare in his monitor mix, which would totally overpower the guitarist's mix if he had the same. He also complained if there wasn't a speaker pointed directly at his head 

Are you playing unconventional venues and taking your own PA? All the metal gigs I've played have been a single shared PA and sound guy for all the bands on a bill.

If you want to play with bands who use "normal" setups then I think what you really want to do is get as many ins and outs as you can- that way you can send all the tracks separately to FOH, and you should be able to set up custom monitor mixes for IEM inside a DAW. So, I'd want to have:
at least 4 tracks input for instrument/vox input 
at least 5 outputs for mono monitor mixes
probably 8 tracks output to FOH for the sound guy to mix as he would normally (2 guitars, vox, bass, and a bunch of tracks for balancing the drums right) .

So, the M-Audio you posted looks like it should be able to do that, and you can set up all the routing ahead of time. 

I should say, I am talking theoretically here but I don't see why this isn't achievable. 
Hope that's food for thought at least.


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## xeonblade (Jan 31, 2012)

velvetkevorkian said:


> I would definitely want to try that before investing in the kit. IME a lot of band members won't be happy with all getting the same mix, e.g. my old drummer always wanted tons of snare in his monitor mix, which would totally overpower the guitarist's mix if he had the same. He also complained if there wasn't a speaker pointed directly at his head
> 
> Are you playing unconventional venues and taking your own PA? All the metal gigs I've played have been a single shared PA and sound guy for all the bands on a bill.
> 
> ...



Point would be that I could just lead out to any PA from interface and use premade mixes for each song in DAW and automated actions like distortion to clean switching and stuff, including additional synths 
Mostly for band practices and solo gigs. Would save lots of time cuz people dont have to bring over all of their gear, then mic it up, sound check and then finally practice, and it wouldnt have to be turned up to ungodly levels because of e-drums.
This is just pure theory cuz I came up with an idea which seemed really good.
P.S. Of all gigs in my town I've never seen any monitoring, people just depend on their amps and snare to hear something. It all sounds like total crap. And this would be silent on stage and clear, album like quality on PA.
I've lost 500Hz of hearing range and just a bit of hearing volume on last gig i went to, because retards dont know a thing about phychoacoustics and turned up bass to ungodly volume in closed space that reverbed the shit out of peoples ears. It must have been around 130-140dB cuz my ears hurt like a bitch after the gig.


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## KingAenarion (Feb 1, 2012)

1 - The sound guy will hate you. As a sound guy I would probably tell you that I have no control over your sound and that I'm going to go take a break if you don't let me do my job. There is no way to know if a mix is going to sound good in one room and not in another. The Subs in one venue may be MUCH more powerful, so normally the soundguy sends a small amount of kick signal just to the subs... but you would have taken away that control.

2 - Too many variables. Live setups really should live by the K.I.S.S principle. keep it simple stupid... Acoustic Drums are loud yes... but they also don't need power to run... they don't need to reboot. Computers can take 30-40 seconds to reboot (and that's before reloading your DAW). All someone has to do is trip on a cable, or someone in the venue has to plug in something dodgy and your whole computer rig goes. Even with a power conditioner protecting your gear, all it takes is a specific set of circumstances and your harddrive fails and you have to cancel your set. 

3 - You're going to need a REALLY good set of electronic drums to pull that off... We're talking at least a TD-12 level if you want your drummer to have any sort of control over sound.

4 - Presonus and M-Audio aren't going to cut it for that kind of live gigging. You'd need something that is designed for live use. I use my RME Fireface UFX for some live stuff, and it's designed for it... and it still struggles.

5 - If you don't want stuff turned up to Ungodly levels, start getting your drummer to play quieter. The best way to do this is to send him an In Ear Mix with LOTS of drums in it... so that if he bashes them to hard it hurts. All you need to start an In Ear Mix is a good set of headphones, a mixer and some Y doubling cables. You just piggyback the microphones of the signals he needs and away you go.



This sounds like a good idea in theory... but there's a reason that people don't do this. Too much can go wrong... and it's more difficult than you might think. If you're trying to run multiple amp sims at low latency + Drum software + soft synths... you're going to have to disable everything on your computer... because even the slightest CPU interrupt is going to rape you.


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## xeonblade (Feb 1, 2012)

Good stuff there


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## McKay (Feb 1, 2012)

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more trouble than it's worth.


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## _detox (Feb 1, 2012)




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## mediaguitarist (Feb 1, 2012)

I have to admit I loved the idea in theory too and I don't want to say give up on it completely but I do agree with King Aenarion. Just too many variable at this stage of your design. But still keep it in your mind and keep an eye on the newer technologies coming around, you might be able to address those issues soon enough. 

Till then, I'll use my ancient secret Chinese method I learned from a grand Shaolin monk in the temples of Manchuria.... slip the sound guy $20 and ask him to give your band a little extra attention on the mix ;-).


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## xeonblade (Feb 1, 2012)

mediaguitarist said:


> I have to admit I loved the idea in theory too and I don't want to say give up on it completely but I do agree with King Aenarion. Just too many variable at this stage of your design. But still keep it in your mind and keep an eye on the newer technologies coming around, you might be able to address those issues soon enough.
> 
> Till then, I'll use my ancient secret Chinese method I learned from a grand Shaolin monk in the temples of Manchuria.... slip the sound guy $20 and ask him to give your band a little extra attention on the mix ;-).



For band practices and SOLO gigs, I'd say it's worth it. But for gigs with other bands where I'm not the soundguy, I'd agree with Aenarion.




_detox said:


>




This is supercomplicated shit, my version is 10 times simpler.


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## galacticmind (Feb 12, 2012)

xeonblade said:


> This is supercomplicated shit, my version is 10 times simpler.



Yah but the reliability seems to be all there, I want a live digital rig like yourself, and we were also hoping to run it all through a high powered desktop computer. for the same reason, amp sims and automated processing etc...let us know how it goes, keep us updated


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## xeonblade (Feb 13, 2012)

Concidering I'm broke and I need to buy e-drums first don't revive this thread. I'll make a new one in a year when I get any of it working.


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## fabriarockz (Feb 19, 2012)

_detox said:


>




I think this video will be my bible for the next months...


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## xeonblade (Feb 19, 2012)

Please, why the fuk people keep ressurecting this post? Mod please lock it.


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## greglecompte (May 31, 2012)

xeonblade said:


> Thunderbolt is MAC only as I know. And I never saw any interface with that connector.
> 64 bit is a default anyways. I stopped using 32bit stuff 2 years ago.
> But I'm thinking that I could get around 10ms for 4 instruments at time with a good interface like PreSonus FireStudio Project or M-AUDIO - ProFire 2626 - High-Definition 26-in/26-out FireWire



there is a thunderbolt interface the ua Apollo


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Jun 1, 2012)

Look into Apple's Mainstage application.
NIN is currently using this with great success, but there's a lot of trial and error in dialing it in. Best to start out using it in recording and then tweak it for live applications.
It's very efficient when used by someone with expertise'.


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