# 8 String Fanned Fret



## Cool711 (Mar 20, 2007)

Hey guys, I'm looking for some advice and direction here.

I'm a 7 string player for a couple years, but have always wanted a high A string (That's why I bought the 7, hoping to tune it up, but it didn't work).

So I'm looking for the custom route now and have enough money (for a downpayment at least, but should be enough for the guitar)

Basically, I'm looking for anyone who can help me find a luthier who can build it.
I have contacted several already, and PAS looked as if they would be perfect, but all of a sudden the guy stopped responding to my emails (tried from different addresses, but nothing) so I guess that's dead.
(Conklin was too expensive)

Here's what I'm looking for:

8 String with fanned frets
Neck through (5-7 piece Maple + Mahogany)
Mahogany wings
28 frets: Stainless steel (Fanned) (I'm looking at 23" - 25")
Rosewood Fretboard
Kahler trem (They said they can do a one off for the fanned fret)
EMG 808s in the neck and bridge
Seymour Duncan Hot Rails Stacked Humbucker for middle (If it will fit)
Locking nut
Ordinary Dot inlays with side dots
Gloss black finish
Dual Concentric Pots from EMG for each pickup
(The Middle pickup configured with 2 PA2 circuits to match the impedence)
EMG afterburner
Tap on the middle pickup.
Angled Headstock
Dual Battery compartment
Planet Waves Trim-Lock Machine Heads

Tuning: BEADGBEA

Thanks for the help.


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## zea7 (Mar 20, 2007)

The HSH configuration + 28 fanned frets will not fit. Also, it will be a bunch of electronic in this guitar EMG + seymour(adding preamp on it + volumn). Man, thats just too much. Why don't you call up Seymour to make you the 8 string ceramic pups that has the same output and all the characters that you need ? 
Here is the direct # to the custom shop (MJ is the one who made mine) 
805-964-9610-Ext 1009 

For the trem...can Kahler actually taking special orders? I would luv to order one for 8 string fanned frets too. The scale on this one, 23.5-25.5 (B-A) thats cool. I like that ~


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## Cool711 (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, that's the thing. 
My 7 has basically the same electronics, except that in the bridge there is a full sized humbucker, so I want to keep it the same.

It's actually not that much stuff.
The PA2's are very small and go along the course of the wiring, and with the concentric pots, it's basically like an ordinary fender S-S-S.

The only real "addition" is the tap and the AB

Thanks for the number, I'll need it.
But I'm die hard EMG. I love the tone, and despite what SD can do, I can't convince myself that it will sound exactly the same.

Oh yeah, and I spoke to Kahler, they said they could do it. COst would be between $700 to $900.


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## OzzyC (Mar 20, 2007)

If the high A is your only reason for doing this, you can contact Gary Goodman (A member of this site.) about his .006 string, which can handle a high A at up to (I think) 30" scale


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## Cool711 (Mar 20, 2007)

^Well, originally it was, but now it's to get some other things I've wanted for a while, such as the fanned frets etc.
Plus, now that' I've gotten used to the low B, I don't want to lose it, so the 8 seems to be the only way to go.

But I will definately be contacting Gary to try out the string.
What is his handle?


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## OzzyC (Mar 20, 2007)

Gary's Profile


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## Cool711 (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks a lot.


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## Cool711 (Mar 21, 2007)

This is the mockup of what the PAS guy drew.
Hopefully something like this, cause I thought it was perfect.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 21, 2007)

^ Looks like it'll be a tasty axe.


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## Durero (Mar 21, 2007)

I'm working on a mod to my new Kahler 7 trem to install it on my fanned-fret 7 prototype. When I've got it done I'll post some pics - when it's finished I should be able to do the same mod for your 8 if your interested.

Cool design!


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## zea7 (Mar 21, 2007)

The trem is so cool man. Do you have any contacts that I can contact the guy to make me too? 


How much sounds can you get in switching thoese pickups? I mean, it s so close together.


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## Cool711 (Mar 21, 2007)

I would seriously be interested in the Kahler mod if they say they can't do it themselves.
Thanks  

Zea7: As for the guy with the Trem: This mockup was drawn by the dude at PAS guitars, but he's stopped responding to my emails, so I don't know if he's receiving any, or if it's just me  
However, you can still try: www.pasguitars.com
Click "Kontact" and you'll see two email addresses. I used to use the first one.

Kahler are the other people I contacted to make the bridge, so you can go to the site at www.kahlerusa.com
Just hit "Contact" there.


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## Nik (Mar 21, 2007)

It took me several seconds for it to sink in that I was looking at a fanned-fret 8-string with a trem...

Looks really awesome, good luck!


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## ElRay (Mar 21, 2007)

Durero said:


> I'm working on a mod to my new Kahler 7 trem to install it on my fanned-fret 7 prototype. When I've got it done I'll post some pics


This I've got to see. I was thinking along the lines of BuzzFree bridges (only $20 a piece) with some Bigsby-like vibrato* behind them.









*I'm experimenting with calling things by what they really are


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## Durero (Mar 21, 2007)

ElRay said:


> I was thinking along the lines of BuzzFree bridges (only $20 a piece) with some Bigsby-like vibrato* behind them.


[Princess Bride] What are these BuzzFrees of which you speak?[/Princess Bride]

+1 for calling them vibratos, but I've got trem burned into my brain it's a hard habit to break 

Edit: found it
http://www.buzzfreebridges.com/


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## Diatenshi (Mar 21, 2007)

That guitar looks amazing, how do fanned frets and the slanted pickups change the sound? Is it just easier to play? Do you still have to tune the same to get the same sound. Since what would normaly be, say, the 25 fret, its in such a different place on the low B then it is on the high E. 

How do you compensate for it being in such a different location on the neck?
Do the pickups being that slanted have an advantage/disadvantage, or is it just to make them fix with the fanned frets?


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## Durero (Mar 21, 2007)

Checked out the BuzzFree Bridges Ray - very interesting. It's nice to see an alternative to the ABM single-string bridges. I think they'd need rollers to work with the Kahler though.


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## Cool711 (Mar 22, 2007)

Diatenshi said:


> That guitar looks amazing, how do fanned frets and the slanted pickups change the sound? Is it just easier to play? Do you still have to tune the same to get the same sound. Since what would normaly be, say, the 25 fret, its in such a different place on the low B then it is on the high E.
> 
> How do you compensate for it being in such a different location on the neck?
> Do the pickups being that slanted have an advantage/disadvantage, or is it just to make them fix with the fanned frets?



The fanned frets allow multiple scale lengths (from nut to bridge) for each string.
Basically, the length of each string is different.
It makes it easier to tune to a high A, because on a normal scale, the string would break (unless you use really light strings).

Tuning is the same.
The pickups are slanted in order to match the fan of the frets. 
(eg. Otherwise, the bass strings would sound heavier in comparison to the unwound strings)

It's not really very difficult to play, just takes a little getting used to.


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## Diatenshi (Mar 22, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> The fanned frets allow multiple scale lengths (from nut to bridge) for each string.
> Basically, the length of each string is different.
> It makes it easier to tune to a high A, because on a normal scale, the string would break (unless you use really light strings).
> 
> ...



Do you only want that for high A? What if I wanted an 8 with F#BEADGBE?


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## ScareRaven (Mar 22, 2007)

Holy Mama!  Great axe! I wonder how it would hold up to the KxK 8-string V that I've seen around here.


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## Durero (Mar 22, 2007)

Diatenshi said:


> Do you only want that for high A? What if I wanted an 8 with F#BEADGBE?


Fanned frets would be extremely helpful for that tuning as well, but I'd highly recommend going with longer scales, say, 25.5" for the high E and 28" or even 30" for the low F#.

I play a 7 with a 32" - 36" fan and I only tune it down to G#, but I absolutely love the clear tone I get with such long scales.

And I personally find fanned-frets to be _easier_ than regular straight frets - just look at the way your fingers fan apart on your hand when you spread them - the frets match this.


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## Cool711 (Mar 22, 2007)

That KxK is frickin awesome.
I'm gonna contact them as well and see what they say about this.
I love their attitude.


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## Diatenshi (Mar 22, 2007)

Durero said:


> Fanned frets would be extremely helpful for that tuning as well, but I'd highly recommend going with longer scales, say, 25.5" for the high E and 28" or even 30" for the low F#.
> 
> I play a 7 with a 32" - 36" fan and I only tune it down to G#, but I absolutely love the clear tone I get with such long scales.
> 
> And I personally find fanned-frets to be _easier_ than regular straight frets - just look at the way your fingers fan apart on your hand when you spread them - the frets match this.



I am not sure what exactly the 28" or 30" scale is, I suppose I have some more learning to do haha. is it the distance between the frets? or the length of the actual neck?


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## Drew (Mar 22, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> This is the mockup of what the PAS guy drew.
> Hopefully something like this, cause I thought it was perfect.



That mockup looks awesome, but it also looks faiirly, well, optimistic. 

Are those pickups scaled correctly? There's really not much space between a 28-fret fan and the bridge, and he's got it drawn with the pickups JUST fitting, drawn in basically touching. If the EMG's are any wider than he has them drawn as, that may not work. Additionally, I have a hard time believing that a 6-string pickup, installed on an angle, could cover 8 strings, even on a fanned neck. 

It's an attractive mockup, but it looks more like a concept sketch than a mathematically sound prototype.


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## Metal Ken (Mar 22, 2007)

Drew said:


> That mockup looks awesome, but it also looks faiirly, well, optimistic.
> 
> Are those pickups scaled correctly? There's really not much space between a 28-fret fan and the bridge, and he's got it drawn with the pickups JUST fitting, drawn in basically touching. If the EMG's are any wider than he has them drawn as, that may not work. Additionally, I have a hard time believing that a 6-string pickup, installed on an angle, could cover 8 strings, even on a fanned neck.
> 
> It's an attractive mockup, but it looks more like a concept sketch than a mathematically sound prototype.



Also, no trem has that much adjustable range on the saddles, and you'd have to machine yuor own nut if you wanted it like in the drawing.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 22, 2007)

He's talking about getting a custom Kahler bridge done up though, and the guy at Kahler already said he could make one.


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## ElRay (Mar 22, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> Kahler trem (They said they can do a one off for the fanned fret)


Sorry to sound demanding, but you have to post as much details as you have about this vibrato bridge:
Cost
Leadtime
What range of bridge angles it will support
etc.

Ray


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## Drew (Mar 22, 2007)

I'd also, building off Ken's question, be a little worriied about string-to-string performance with the saddles falling at such widely different points relative to the fulcrum - I'd think it'd be difficult to get even relatively even string-to-string performance with differences like that.


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## Durero (Mar 22, 2007)

Drew said:


> I'd also, building off Ken's question, be a little worriied about string-to-string performance with the saddles falling at such widely different points relative to the fulcrum - I'd think it'd be difficult to get even relatively even string-to-string performance with differences like that.


 I'd say that a fulcrum design wouldn't work at all for the angled bridge needed for multi-scale designs. The bridge saddles must be separate and ahead of the fulcrum as in the Kahler & Steinberger cam designs.


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## Durero (Mar 22, 2007)

Diatenshi said:


> I am not sure what exactly the 28" or 30" scale is, I suppose I have some more learning to do haha. is it the distance between the frets? or the length of the actual neck?


Scale length is the distance from nut to bridge - the vibrating length of the strings on any guitar.

To be more exact, it's 2x the length of string between the nut and the 12th fret - measuring this way avoids the slight compensations made at the bridge saddles for proper intonation of each string.


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## Cool711 (Mar 22, 2007)

To Drew: The pickups are 8 string pickups, not 6, so they will cover the distance.
However, I agree that it looks optimistic.
Everyone I've spoken to says at 28 frets, 2 pickups are the max.
I too think the pickups are not to scale.

As for the bridge question, I've been running around to everyone I can find in order to find out the dynamics of the bridge etc.
The bridge here is a mock up as well, but I spoke to Conklin and he said that he would strongly advise against it, although he has built one once.
He said it was a real pain to get the points right.

I'm waiting on another response to Kahler to verify that they know what they're getting themselves into.

As for the nut, yeah, that will be custom machined too.
That's my least worry right now.


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## zea7 (Mar 22, 2007)

Hey man, I have a cool news for you. Kahler actually have them IN STOCK !!!! IN GOLD, CHROME, and BLACK !!!! $399 each ! + the * STRING LOCKING NUTS !!!! $ 65.00 each!!!!!


Not bad hur ? I wil be ordering my next week. Also this June the trem for 9 and 10 string will be up for SELL too. 

This summer will be a great time for whoever having some crazy projects (I have 3 projects to be done). I hv just ordered EMG 607 , 817 (x2) and 2 of the 808s today. Similar to yours, but mine will be 27 frets fanned frets. 25.5-27 " (using Lundgren M8 on this one). Will post up some pics when its done.


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## OzzyC (Mar 22, 2007)

zea7 said:


> Hey man, I have a cool news for you. Kahler actually have them IN STOCK !!!! IN GOLD, CHROME, and BLACK !!!! $399 each ! + the * STRING LOCKING NUTS !!!! $ 65.00 each!!!!!
> 
> 
> Not bad hur ? I wil be ordering my next week. Also this June the trem for 9 and 10 string will be up for SELL too.
> ...



We've heard about the khaler 8 before, but it's for guitars without multi-scale designs. 

And I would think they have them for _sale_, not too many places put stuff up for sell.


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## zea7 (Mar 23, 2007)

They are for the fanned frets model too (as refered from Pete at Kahler). 

The regular ones are selling for $250 I think ? Not so sure.


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## Cool711 (Mar 23, 2007)

On their site it says the regular 8 string bridge for $409.
Doesn't say anything about the fanned fret model.


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## zea7 (Mar 23, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> On their site it says the regular 8 string bridge for $409.
> Doesn't say anything about the fanned fret model.




Yeah, thats why I called them up. So they say yes, they have.


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## Durero (Mar 23, 2007)

zea7 said:


> Hey man, I have a cool news for you. Kahler actually have them IN STOCK !!!! IN GOLD, CHROME, and BLACK !!!! $399 each ! + the * STRING LOCKING NUTS !!!! $ 65.00 each!!!!!
> 
> 
> Not bad hur ? I wil be ordering my next week. Also this June the trem for 9 and 10 string will be up for SELL too.
> ...


Wow! Sounds too good to be true. I hope you're right and Kahler comes through with all the fanned-fret & 9/10 string models. They could really corner the market on vibrato units for extended range guitars.


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## XEN (Mar 23, 2007)

Durero said:


> Wow! Sounds too good to be true. I hope you're right and Kahler comes through with all the fanned-fret & 9/10 string models. They could really corner the market on vibrato units for extended range guitars.


 
10 string trem? Here are customers 1 & 2! LOL

Mike Sherman is going to be BUSY!!!!


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## zea7 (Mar 23, 2007)

I'm sure that it would be cool to have some 9 strings 10 strings guitars (with trem). But, If one string snapped out on you while playing life. Bro.... thats a big deal. hahaha~!!!

But I'm going for it anyway.


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## Durero (Mar 24, 2007)

zea7 said:


> I'm sure that it would be cool to have some 9 strings 10 strings guitars (with trem). But, If one string snapped out on you while playing life. Bro.... thats a big deal. hahaha~!!!
> 
> But I'm going for it anyway.


Well I'd say if you break a string on a 9 or 10 then you've still got 8 or 9 strings left!  

Better than breaking a string on a 6


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## Cool711 (Mar 24, 2007)

That sounds excellent.
I spoke to them again, and they were saying the best thing for them to do is to modify the existing one to accommodate the fanned frets.
They asked me for the difference in intonation points between the high and low strings.


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## Durero (Mar 24, 2007)

Wow that sounds great. Did they give you any sense of the cost for the fanned-fret mod?


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## Cool711 (Mar 24, 2007)

Nothing definite yet.


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## Diatenshi (Mar 24, 2007)

I am really interested to hear the outcome. I would be interested in a similar build in the coming months as I save some monies. Let us know totals of price and such as you find them out : ) !


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## Cool711 (Mar 25, 2007)

Definately.
In the mean time, I have to work out some details.
What fret do you guys think the straight fret should go on? 

Suggestions, reasons, advice?


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## OzzyC (Mar 25, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> Definately.
> In the mean time, I have to work out some details.
> What fret do you guys think the straight fret should go on?
> 
> Suggestions, reasons, advice?



7 
For much the same reason as Blackmachine uses the 5th fret


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## Cool711 (Mar 25, 2007)

Why is that?


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## OzzyC (Mar 25, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> Why is that?



To make chording easier in the lower frets.


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## Durero (Mar 26, 2007)

Try FretFind 2-D if you haven't already.

http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/nonparallel.php

For ergonomics and aesthetics, I choose to match the angle of the nut and the highest fret (33rd on my current 9-string design.) This usually ends up making the 9th fret the straight one (depending on total number of frets), and the bridge being a little more angled than the nut which feels natural for both hands.

However, if you tend to spend more time playing in the 1st position than elsewhere on the neck, then I agree with Oz and I'd recommend having the 7th or 5th fret straight to reduce the angle of the nut & first fret.


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## Cool711 (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks for the link.

I'm leaning right now towards the 12th fret position because I need to keep the bridge angle as close to 90 degrees as possible for the trem. (Am I right to assume that at 12 it will be closer than at 7 or 9?)

Also, I play in basically all the positions. 
I use open chords a lot, but I also do all the solos.
Additionally, the main focus of my playing is riffing, and if in the lower registers, it's usually comprised of the first 4 strings (very very general overview).

So from that, you guys think I'm better off with the 12? or lower?


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## ElRay (Mar 26, 2007)

Durero said:


> Try FretFind 2-D if you haven't already.
> 
> http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/nonparallel.php


I'll second this. I did a mock-up by printing out a full-sized pattern, gluing it to a piece of cardboard and then "playing" with it. Depending on your OS, printer, PDF viewer, etc. it might be easiest to print the multi-page version, because it can be tricky to get correctly scaled pages from the single-page PDF.


Durero said:


> For ergonomics and aesthetics, I choose to match the angle of the nut and the highest fret (33rd on my current 9-string design.) This usually ends up making the 9th fret the straight one (depending on total number of frets), and the bridge being a little more angled than the nut which feels natural for both hands.





Cool711 said:


> I'm leaning right now towards the 12th fret position because I need to keep the bridge angle as close to 90 degrees as possible for the trem.


There has been a bit of a change to FretFind 2-D. You now specify the "perpendicular distance". From the docs:


> A value of 0 results in a perpendicular nut. A value of 1 results in a perpendicular bridge. The default 0.5 results in a perpendicular octave fret.


There's more details and a table online if you want a particular fret to be perpendicular. If you wanted to go with a straight bridge, you could do that, but then all your offset will be at the nut. I tested that, but with a 28-5/8 to 25-1/2 fan, I couldn't comfortably fret the first string at the fourth fret and the seventh string at the first fret.

Ray


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## Durero (Mar 26, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> I'm leaning right now towards the 12th fret position because I need to keep the bridge angle as close to 90 degrees as possible for the trem. (Am I right to assume that at 12 it will be closer than at 7 or 9?)


Yes that's right. The 12th will give you approximately matching angles at the bridge and nut. (If, like most designs, you have a slightly wider string spacing at the bridge than at the nut, then the nut will have a slightly sharper angle than the bridge.)

Again I'd suggest throwing your specs into FretFind - one of the results it'll give you is the angle for the nut, bridge and each fret. Like Ray says, you can experiment with which fret you would like to be the straight one (12th is the default I believe) and see how that affects the bridge angle.


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## Cool711 (Mar 26, 2007)

Well I calculated it using a perpendicular bridge and it looks playable (23"-25" + 28 frets).

This is just keeping the bridge perpendicular though. 
I need to find out about the fulcrum points and how it will be affected (if at all) by having it perpendicular.

Because as far as I was concerned, once the saddles moved to accommodate the scale lengths, I thought it would be fine.
However, I was told that the fulcrum points would have to change.

Can anyone explain this to me? 
This is the last point I need to clarify before commissioning the build.


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## ElRay (Mar 26, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> Well I calculated it using a perpendicular bridge and it looks playable (23"-25" + 28 frets).


That's not much of a fan. Nice that it seems to work with a perpendicular bridge. That way, you should be able to go with a stock vibrato.


> I need to find out about the fulcrum points and how it will be affected (if at all) by having it perpendicular. ... However, I was told that the fulcrum points would have to change.


Khaler's are cam-based, after the saddles, right? If so, then it shouldn't matter, because the saddles aren't moving when you're adding vibrato, it's the cams that are stretching/releasing tension on the strings. It's the FR-Style vibratos that move the saddles up and down, so the angled bridge would impart a very different moment arm to each string.


> This is the last point I need to clarify before commissioning the build.


It's a non-trival purchase. I'd still make a cardboard neck and play air guitar for a while. 

Ray


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## Cool711 (Mar 26, 2007)

^Agreed.

And yeah, as far as I knew Khaler would make it so that it wouldn't matter because the saddles didn't move. But Mike said something about the fulcrum points in their bridge, so I wasn't sure.

Hopefully the stock vibrato will work.
We'll soon find out, lol.


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## Durero (Mar 27, 2007)

ElRay said:


> That's not much of a fan. Nice that it seems to work with a perpendicular bridge. That way, you should be able to go with a stock vibrato.Khaler's are cam-based, after the saddles, right? If so, then it shouldn't matter, because the saddles aren't moving when you're adding vibrato, it's the cams that are stretching/releasing tension on the strings. It's the FR-Style vibratos that move the saddles up and down, so the angled bridge would impart a very different moment arm to each string.It's a non-trival purchase. I'd still make a cardboard neck and play air guitar for a while.


+1 to everything Ray said 
Especially the cardboard neck thing - I did that to try out the feel of my fanned-7 prototype before building and it worked wonderfully. The finished product perfectly matched the feel I was expecting.


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## XEN (Mar 27, 2007)

Knowing that Kahlers could be made to accommodate a fan has my wheels seriously turning. Not good, 'cause I have work to do here....


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## Cool711 (Mar 27, 2007)

Can anyone see any complications with the Kahler bridge provided that it is mounted straight (no angle because of all the compensation at the nut?)


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## Durero (Mar 27, 2007)

The Kahler should be fine. The only drawback I can imagine is having all your compensation at the nut could make open position playing less comfortable. Splitting the compensation between nut & bridge would eliminate this possibility. I'm sure if you 'air guitar' your neck design first you'll be able to see how much this design affects your comfort.

To split the compensation between nut & bridge would only require 1" of compensation at each end. The standard Kahler design can already handle about 1/2" and I think it would be an easy mod for them to make one to your requirements. I'd encourage you to keep discussing it with them.


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## Cool711 (Mar 27, 2007)

Yeah, I'm waiting for some more info to contact them.

But if I do compensate at the bridge, do you know if there would be any stability issues?


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## Durero (Mar 27, 2007)

No I'm sure there wouldn't be any stability issues at all - their cam design is ideally suited to fanned-frets, it's just a matter of mounting the roller saddles with the required offsets.


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## Cool711 (Mar 27, 2007)

Have you completed the mod for your 7 with it yet?
How did it / is it working (going) so far?


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## Durero (Mar 27, 2007)

No I haven't had time lately. I play in a Balinese Gamelan (percussion) group and we have all our shows in April, so the trem mod will likely have to wait till May. But of course I'll post any progress here.

I intend to consult with Kahler before making my own mod, but my requirements are about double the angle of yours - 36" to 32" fan. So I need 2" of compensation at the bridge with the saddle offsets at about a 45° angle to the strings. The design I have in mind is to have a separate mounting pin for each saddle.


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## Cool711 (Mar 27, 2007)

I see.
Well, good luck with that.
Basically, all I need is another half inch at the saddles and I should be pretty good to go.


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## Durero (Mar 27, 2007)

Yeah if I were you I'd ask Kahler if they could get a 1" spread between the intonation points of the lowest & highest strings. I suspect it wouldn't be too much trouble for them.


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## Cool711 (Apr 9, 2007)

Well, some new info on the bridge:
I sent the info about the intonation points and the spread, using 12 as the straight, with 1" at the nut and 1" at the bridge.

So far, they said that at this point, it is still a long way from getting started, but the price will maybe be about $1000.

Do you think this is worth it?

I had budgeted for close to this already, but I'm still wondering if at this point it is overkill.

Ah well, I'll probably end up doing it anyway. 
Shame that the bridge alone costs almost as much as a good guitar.


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## Durero (Apr 9, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> Well, some new info on the bridge:
> I sent the info about the intonation points and the spread, using 12 as the straight, with 1" at the nut and 1" at the bridge.
> 
> So far, they said that at this point, it is still a long way from getting started, but the price will maybe be about $1000.
> ...


Yah custom machining precision parts is an expensive thing. I expect my mod to cost much less than that, but that's using one of Kahler's factory made bridges which are almost 1/2 as much as their handmade ones.

Hope to get my mod done within a month or so - I'll post when done.


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## Cool711 (Apr 9, 2007)

How is it coming along?
Do you have to change the other parts drastically? (Other than the mounting pin)

And is it working so far? (Or you haven't tested it yet, still theoretical).

You're right, the factory made ones are half the cost, so it would be so much easier to just mod it.


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## Durero (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm afraid it's still in the design sketch stage. I'm designing a part which would fit in front of the regular Kahler unit and mount the saddles in a staggered fashion for the multi-scale requirements. There will be no modifications needed to the original Kahler parts.


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## Cool711 (Apr 9, 2007)

Ah, I see.
Well, looking foward to it.
Hopefully it will solve both of our (and everyone else's) problem.
You'll have a great product there too.
I'm sure you could sell it, as many people have expressed interest in it.

I know I'd endorse it, lol.


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## Durero (Apr 9, 2007)

Hey thanks for the positive feedback my friend, it's very encouraging. Development is always a slow process and I'm taking things one step at a time - want to make sure the kinks are worked out at my expense rather than someone else's.


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## Cool711 (Apr 10, 2007)

No prob man.
In the meantime, does anyone know how to increase the string spacing in FretFind to make it the same spacing used on a Jackson RR1?

I know where the values are, but I don't know what the value for this spacing would be, nor how to calculate it.


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## Durero (Apr 11, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> No prob man.
> In the meantime, does anyone know how to increase the string spacing in FretFind to make it the same spacing used on a Jackson RR1?
> 
> I know where the values are, but I don't know what the value for this spacing would be, nor how to calculate it.


If you have a Jackson RR1 just measure the distance from the center of the 1st string to the center of the 6th string and post that value here. We'll help you with the rest.

Edit: you'll have to measure twice - once at the nut and once at the bridge.


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## Cool711 (Apr 11, 2007)

Sadly, I don't have one that I can measure.
But from Jackson's site, this is the width at the nut:

1-11/16&#8221; (43mm)

Nothing for the width at the bridge yet.


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## Cool711 (Apr 24, 2007)

Update: Order for Kahler bridge placed today!

Here's what they are doing: custom bridge plate to accommodate the fan, as well as 4 custom saddles.

Brass cam (standard on their standard 8's)
Steel saddles for each string.
Locking system found on the hybrids.


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## Durero (Apr 24, 2007)

Wow that's great! Please keep us updated & share any pics if you get any.

And do you mind sharing the price is? I may order one myself.


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## Cool711 (Apr 24, 2007)

The downpayment was $450 and the total price is supposed to be $900, but if it exceeds they will contact me.
(Sure hope it doesn't!)


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## Durero (Apr 24, 2007)

Yah custom work is expensive. Did they say if they're going to make those 4 saddles with a longer intonation adjustment?

I'm going to try to make some individual saddle mounts for mine to accommodate the extreme fan. Hopefully be done in the next few weeks.


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## xwmucradiox (Apr 24, 2007)

Isn't the trem response going to be dramatically different between strings?


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## Durero (Apr 24, 2007)

Not at all - a trem for a multi-scale instrument will have quite a bit _less_ of a difference in response between strings than the same guitar with straight frets. This is because the fanned-fret design lessens the difference in gages from string to string compared to straight frets.

The catch is that fulcrum (Floyd) type designs don't work well for this - a cam (Kahler or Steinberger for example) design with the bridge saddles separate from the pivoting mechanism is required.


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## Cool711 (Apr 24, 2007)

I believe they are going to be longer, but I will verify with them.
The 4 are longer to accommodate the fan, but I don't know if they will be adjustible for the entire length. (1" for the longest one).


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## Cool711 (Apr 30, 2007)

Hey guys, another question here.
I was thinking about the scale length being 25 on the B side and 23 on the short side, but I was wondering if to push the 25 up to 25.5.
Would it make much of a difference?

And what is the longest scale length possible for a high A with a 0.09 or 0.08 string?

Thanks.


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## dpm (Apr 30, 2007)

you don't want to take it much past 23" for a high A with a standard string.
I'd suggest making a full size drawing of 23"-25" and 23"-25.5" to see how it's going to feel.


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## Cool711 (Apr 30, 2007)

Would 23.5 be ok?


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## dpm (Apr 30, 2007)

yeah, should be fine. Even when you reduce the tension of the A string the .008's are still naturally weaker so break more easily. Just keep that in mind.


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## Cool711 (Apr 30, 2007)

Ok cool, thanks.
I was just wondering because I don't want the low B to be too short.


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## dpm (Apr 30, 2007)

25" can work fine for a low B providing the construction and woods are chosen for a tight sound. I had a 25" Carvin 6 string that I used to tune to B. It had a maple neck and body with an ebony fretboard and had a fantastic sounding low B. Much better than any 25.5" basswood bodied guitar I've ever heard.


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## Cool711 (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, this guitar is going to be a 7 piece maple + mahogany neck through with mahogany wings.

Ebony fretboard, stainless steel saddles and EMG pickups.

Thoughts on the sound of the low B?


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## dpm (Apr 30, 2007)

could get a little muddy with that much mahogany. Which EMG models are you using?


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## Cool711 (Apr 30, 2007)

The 808s.
Ideally I would like an 81, but they don't have the 8 string models (yet???)

I also tune half step down, so that B will actually be half step lower than standard.

Thoughts?

I've decided that it's not worth risking and I'm gonna push the low B up to 25.5"

I'll either keeping the high A side at 23" or even reduce it to 22.75" depending on Mike's advice.


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## Cool711 (May 9, 2007)

Update:
Kahler started the drawings on the bridge Monday.

Finally went with a 25.5 - 22.75 scale length.

Woods changed to Maple + Purple Heart in the neck; Mahogany wings stay the same.

Pics to follow.


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## Cool711 (Jul 13, 2007)

This is so freakin' cool.


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## Chellee Guitars (Jul 13, 2007)

I'll build it. Take a look at my site. I met a few of the guys at Jemfest last weekend. The guys that were there on Friday played a couple of my guitars and seemed to like them. I'm sure you could ask them about the quality and playability. I'm an EMG dealer and a one man shop. I build everything by hand to spec and, though the guitars pictured on the site all have the same body style (except the bass) I'll build whatever you'd like. Just let me know if you're interested.


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## Cool711 (Jul 13, 2007)

Oh, thanks a lot dude, but I already got Mike to build this one.
I was also speaking to another guy from the site about another fixed bridge version, but I'll check out your site now.

Again, thanks a lot for the consideration.


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## Cool711 (Sep 29, 2007)

Hey guys, another question here.

The neck blank is already finished etc., and we went with purple heart and maple.

However, I read something here about wenge and it put some doubts in my mind.

Basically I kind of like Slash's lead sound and Hetfield's rhythm sound, both with a nice dose of low mids.

The guitar is neck through maple + purple heart with mahogany wings right now (at least that is the current plan).

Of course, Mike being Mike says that if I want to change it, he's happy to make me happy.

My question is (cold feet I guess), do you think this is ideal, or should I redo the neck with maple + wenge in order to get more lower mids.

My understanding is that purple heart will give more high mids. 
I'm worried that it sounds too high, which I hate, like a typical Strat or PRS CE with maple neck and maple top.

Ideally, I'd like to get a nice tight rhythm sound off of the low strings, but a smooth Slash-like sound off of the high strings (Forgetting amp settings; I want the base tone to be there. I already have the gear for tweaking it, but I'd really like to get as close to it as possible from the start).

Other considerations: Bridge (Khaler) has stainless steel rollers; Neck pickup is moved back to between neck and middle position to facilitate 27 frets and a deep cutaway; Fretboard is ebony; 
All these would contribute to a brighter sound.

Neck pup is an 808.
Scale lengths: 25.5 - 22.75

Thoughts?


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## vansinn (Sep 30, 2007)

Cool711 said:


> Hey guys, another question here.
> 
> The neck blank is already finished etc., and we went with purple heart and maple.
> 
> ...


Well, while mostly a guitar player, I also shopped an unfinished bass project after much discussion with a bass player I know, having build four basses (incl an 8 string).
He told me a sycamore mable neck through would produce quite a nice bright sound, with the wenge fretboard holding a little bit back on clarity.

My '87 Duesenberg 6-stringer has a basswodd body with a fairly decent cavity and a mable neck with ebony board. Coupled with OBL 450's it's quite bright.
Not being an expert, I still think your latest suggested woods might give you that wanted tone.

I'd guess your choise of alloys in that Kahler may affect tone as well.
Did you check Kahler's page on tonal qualities with different alloys?
I have no idea which alloy combinations can be had for their new fanned designs, though.
Elaborated in detail on my main styles and sought after tone, they were were very nice replying to me on choise of materials for a 6-stringer a few month ago.

While I haven't asked them as yet, I'm thinking about graphite rollers.
One problem I've read report on is that rollers gets stuck over time, and strings create a flatspot. Graphite rollers would be self-lubricating, and wear less on strings.

I have a link somewhere to Rick Korner's Gibson-Kahler install job on Mark Edwards' (Overlorde) Gibson V Gothic Black, with custom graphite rollers installed. Searching...
EDIT: it's here: A Custom Gibson Flying V With A Modified Kahler Bridge used by Mark Edwards of Overlorde
Picks of saddles with graphite rollers near buttom of page.

Damn, I should never have signed up in here. Getting all to hot about this myself


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## Durero (Sep 30, 2007)

Those graphite rollers look very interesting. Thanks for that link vansinn.


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## vansinn (Sep 30, 2007)

Durero said:


> Those graphite rollers look very interesting. Thanks for that link vansinn.



Well, kindof.. I asked Rick where he got them, but the problem is Mark Edwards brought them to Rick himself, when he handed the axe in for mods.
Rick fine trimmed them for the Gibson Kahler saddles, but don't know where Mark got them. I mailed Mark twice, but no replies, so...
I've poked the net for them, written to graphtec et al, but so far.. nada.

I want graphite rollers in the Rockinger whammy on my Duesenberg, which has pretty crappy rollers not made to specs, i.e. they're sitting loose, sucking tone and sustain.
If only I could locate a place selling a graphite rod of suitable dimentions, I'd shop time in a tool shop and make them myself. Maybe not too easy, but oh well.



Cool711 said:


> Finally went with a 25.5 - 22.75 scale length.



I have a hard time determining which scale will fit for which string gauges. I realize I'd have to experiment with various gauges on a finished instrument.
I partly have a hand problem keeping me from too heavy strings, partly am somewhat savvy WRT tension feeling on the upper strings.
I'd prefer about the same feeling as in my 25.5" 6-stringer with 9.5, 12, 17, 24, 34, 46. The reason for the seemingly slinky E:9.5 vs the b:12 is that I most always find the high E too hard compared to the rest.

For an 8 string, I don't want too much fanning. I've played with the fretfinder with a 24"-26.5" scale keeping 9th fret perpendicular. I don't want the a-string less than a .009.
It seems either 9, 11.5, 14, 18, 26, 36, 42, 52 or 9, 12, 16, 20, 26, 36, 42, 52 might give me about the same feeling, or am I totally off?

Further, is anyone using intonated nuts? On most guitars, I find the b and G strings tend to go ever so slightly sharp, and the low E slightly flat.

Also, is the fretfinder based on any corrective theory, like Buzz-Feiten or other methods? Or is that what the Just Scala is there for?


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## Cool711 (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, the compensated nut is supposed to correct for what the fanning of the frets actually does, i.e. have different scale lengths for each string. 
(Just in case you were wondering)

I went with 22.75 because this was the best possible alternative for a high A with a tremolo, without using Garry's string.

Then 25.5 was the highest I could go to without making the fan too extreme while retaining a decent enough length for the low B. (straight fret at 12 to facilitate easier higher register soloing).
Since the fan isn't extreme, first position still seems to remain comfortable enough for chording.

So that's how I decided.

Edit:

Incidentally, I have just decided to stick with the original plan.

A key consideration is that I'm going to bug Mike to make me another neck later made of maple and wenge!

Plus, I think with all things considered, I'd like the guitar to sound like a cross between an RR1 and Les Paul. 

Since the RR1 is straight maple with alder wings, I figure the mahogany body and purple heart will add some of the characteristics I'm looking for and I'll compensate for the rest with eq and amp.

Thanks guys.


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## Durero (Oct 1, 2007)

vansinn said:


> Well, kindof.. I asked Rick where he got them, but the problem is Mark Edwards brought them to Rick himself, when he handed the axe in for mods.
> Rick fine trimmed them for the Gibson Kahler saddles, but don't know where Mark got them. I mailed Mark twice, but no replies, so...
> I've poked the net for them, written to graphtec et al, but so far.. nada.
> 
> ...


Ah interesting - let us know if you find any further info on them 





vansinn said:


> I have a hard time determining which scale will fit for which string gauges. I realize I'd have to experiment with various gauges on a finished instrument.
> I partly have a hand problem keeping me from too heavy strings, partly am somewhat savvy WRT tension feeling on the upper strings.
> I'd prefer about the same feeling as in my 25.5" 6-stringer with 9.5, 12, 17, 24, 34, 46. The reason for the seemingly slinky E:9.5 vs the b:12 is that I most always find the high E too hard compared to the rest.
> 
> ...



Have you tried the String Tension Calculator? http://www.pacificsites.net/~dog/StringTensionApplet.html



I've recently had the Buzz Feiten mods done to a strat-style 6 and a classical, and I'm really really impressed with the results. Chords which have sounded problematic to me for many years now sound beautiful & consistent all over the neck


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## vansinn (Oct 2, 2007)

Durero said:


> Ah interesting - let us know if you find any further info on them



I just had word from Josh at Kahler that their research showed less good tone and sustain with graphite rollers, so they wont take up the idea. He was sure to have seen graphite rollers online, though.. 
Asked about the benefit of selflubricating graphites vs sticky metal rollers (rumours I've heard), he noted that sticky rollers would be the result of neglecting proper care and maintenence.

He also replied on how much fanning is possible on an 8-string Kahler, and price:
_
The maximum difference in the witness point of the first string to the
witness point of the lowest string is 1.600".

The fanned fret system is available in 6, 7, 8 and 9 string versions.
Production usually takes 8 weeks and price varies between $699 and $949.
_



> Have you tried the String Tension Calculator? http://www.pacificsites.net/~dog/StringTensionApplet.html
> 
> I've recently had the Buzz Feiten mods done to a strat-style 6 and a classical, and I'm really really impressed with the results. Chords which have sounded problematic to me for many years now sound beautiful & consistent all over the neck



Thanks for the string tension calc link; investing.. but haven't found the Golden Cut yet 
I suppose you had a new fretboard made for that B-F mod, right?


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## Durero (Oct 2, 2007)

vansinn said:


> I just had word from Josh at Kahler that their research showed less good tone and sustain with graphite rollers, so they wont take up the idea. He was sure to have seen graphite rollers online, though..
> Asked about the benefit of selflubricating graphites vs sticky metal rollers (rumours I've heard), he noted that sticky rollers would be the result of neglecting proper care and maintenence.
> 
> He also replied on how much fanning is possible on an 8-string Kahler, and price:
> ...


Fanstastic info vansinn thanks for that.

That's probably enough fanning range for most folks - should allow roughly 3.2" difference in scale between the highest & lowest strings. I'm interested in even more of a difference myself so I'll be continuing along the custom path.




vansinn said:


> Thanks for the string tension calc link; investing.. but haven't found the Golden Cut yet
> I suppose you had a new fretboard made for that B-F mod, right?



No not at all. The Buzz mod is just a new nut and some unconventional adjustments to the bridge saddles, but the fret placement is not changed. As I say, I'm very happy with it so far.


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## vansinn (Oct 3, 2007)

Durero said:


> No not at all. The Buzz mod is just a new nut and some unconventional adjustments to the bridge saddles, but the fret placement is not changed. As I say, I'm very happy with it so far.



Yes, I'm aware of this kind of adjustment. One of the newsgroups, r.m.m.g.j or r.m.m.g.c or r.m.c.g (memories failing), had a lengthy discussion about various fret offset systems a few month ago, where nut displacement was also discussed.
I just thought you had the whole fret displacement shebang done, since you spoke so happily about chording intonations. I'm somewhat surpriced to hear a mere 'nut case'  can do so much. Time to have it done on my own instruments!

I have some links to offset systems other than the Buzz-Feiten, readily readable (less the math, of cause) vs having to dig through the B-F patents. I'll poke them from my harddrive, which fails less than my memories


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## technomancer (Dec 18, 2008)

NECRO 

Just wondering if there's any more info about this build? How'd the fanned Kahler end up working out?


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## Tomii Sonic (Dec 18, 2008)

Dude try searching Black Machine F8 in google image!!!!

or go to my profile and look at my bottom photo album


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## technomancer (Dec 18, 2008)

Tomii Sonic said:


> Dude try searching Black Machine F8 in google image!!!!
> 
> or go to my profile and look at my bottom photo album



Nice but I'm more interested in this build that had a fanned fret 8 string Kahler on it. I want to know how that trem worked out in practice


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## Cool711 (Dec 20, 2008)

Mike said it should be ready this week, so as soon as I know, you'll know.
As far as I know, though, there haven't been any issues thus far.


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## vansinn (Dec 20, 2008)

Durero said:


> Checked out the BuzzFree Bridges Ray - very interesting. It's nice to see an alternative to the ABM single-string bridges. I think they'd need rollers to work with the Kahler though.



Yeah, alternatives always good, nice price too. Looks pretty bulky/ugly IMHO, though, and I don't see how they can be good with trems, as claimed.
Also, heigth adjustments are done by filing. Make a mistake, and.. I'd think it's better to order them too low, and trim them up with thin inserts underneath.


BTW.. I just don't understand why the threadstarter would want a 23"-25" scale for this instrument.
Yes, I did read the intended tuning with a high A, but even so.. if you later decide on a lower tuning, you may find the low 25" pretty limiting. Even just a low B on 25" can mean a nifty string gauge and maybe murky waters tonewise. Just my 2 cents, YMMV..


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## Cool711 (Dec 20, 2008)

Well, the whole idea was that anything above a certain length for the high A would require special strings (Garry's) and I wanted the ability to use standard strings just in case Garry's ever ran out / stopped production etc. (Don't want to wager the cost of the instrument on the availability of one product).
Additionally, as this was the first model of the Kahler, I was attempting to work out the logistics of the fan for the bridge and a 2" difference in the fan seemed like a good compromise.

However, the scale length as of now is a fan between 25.5 and 22.75 and is accommodated by the bridge (straight fret at 12)
This was done at Mike's suggestion and much research for the same reason of cleaning up the low B.

The lowest tuning I'm comfortable with is Bb and can't really ever see myself going lower than that.
If I do though, I won't want to lose anything, so time for a 9 String!


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## nogg (Nov 4, 2009)

Any UpDates?


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## Fionn (Nov 4, 2009)

Woweeeeeeeeeeee, SUPER BUMP!


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## caughtinamosh (Nov 4, 2009)

Old and irrelevant thread is old and irrelevant. 

As consolation, please enjoy the following Sherman pr0n... 







22.5" to 25.5" fan, with the first fanned Kahler tremolo (vibrato ) in the world.


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## Cool711 (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey guys, guitar completed.
Received it yesterday.

Plays quite well, except that the high A is making some scratching noises when I bend.
Will try lubricating the saddle shortly.


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## Janiator (Jan 8, 2010)

Make sure to post pics!


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## Cool711 (Jan 10, 2010)




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## Hollowway (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the pics! That upper fret access is incredible! OK, so now the questions:
1) That's a pretty short scale length on the high end - do you have trouble fingering the upper frets?
2) Having played the Kahler now, typical Kahler issues aside (i.e. it's big, spongy, etc) do you like it? Is it worth the $800 or whatever to get it made, or if you had to do it again would you do fan+hardtail or no fan+trem?
3) The fan on that is 3 inches. Was it no problem to adapt, or did you find it to be excessive in any way?
4) Where did you guys come up with the body style on that guy? I've not seen that on other Sherman builds (i.e. the deep lower horn cutaway).
5) From the point of making a final decision on your specs until delivery, what was the build time?
6) On Metalguitarist I see Mike was talking about the rollers not being high enough on the highest strings, and that ideally you'd sink the treble side of the Kahler into the body to compensate. Any idea what the consequence of not having the rollers high enough is (i.e. having too shallow of a break angle)?


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## Cool711 (Jan 11, 2010)

Pics were my pleasure (had to borrow a camera actually, lol.)

1. No problem fingering the upper frets. The scale length of 22.75 is pretty "standard" for short-scale high A guitars (I got the idea from Conklin on this one. Originally I had suggested 23, but Mike suggested that the extra .25" would help, and we settled on this. I believe it was for the best.)
Also, I have particularly small fingers (as bad as that sounds for a guy). So while I can't do Vai-like stretches, lateral runs make a lot of sense for me, making the 8 ideal. And I can fret and bend the high-A 27th fret with no issue. (Also keep in mind that these are essentially jumbo frets as well.)

2. The Kahler is great. It was totally worth the money spent ($900 or $950; can't remember which.)
If I had to do it again, I would still go the route of fan + trem.
Keep in mind that I am not a super-trem user. I just want that if I needed to use it, it would be there. Since this is supposed to be essentially a hybrid, it should be able to lock to fixed (but as of this writing, I haven't tried it yet; I think I'll do that after, lol)

3. Again, the fan is pretty "standard," at least as far as the fans I've seen. The specs are pretty much the same specs that I've seen on stock Conklins and other fanned fret models that use high A's (25.5 to 22.75). 
There was no problem adapting to the fan. Felt very natural, and I attribute a lot of this to the straight fret being the 12th, as I play all over the neck, and tend not necessarily to stay in first position.
That being said, the angle of the nut when holding, say an F5 in first position, causes my index finger to touch it, but I became accustomed in literally about 10 mins, so again no big deal.

4. The body style was my idea, and is basically a super-strat shape. The idea for the lower deep cutaway came from Rusty Cooley's signature series dean (7 string). Rusty has a very wide and thin lower horn that enables him to reach the high frets easily, both on the wound and plain strings. I basically extended this idea and took it further, so that (as you can see) the cutaway starts at the end of the 27th fret on the treble side and has the bottom of the arc almost in line with where the 27th fret of the Low B ends.

The heel was another idea I had, again for complete access, and as is, I am basically playing a neck all the way up to the last fret on the guitar. This is one of its best feature IMHO.

5. Time from first payment to delivery was approximately 3 years.

6. The shallow break angle resulted in the high A not ringing out as long as the other strings. This is in fact, quite noticeable, especially on bends. Also, I have still not been able to resolve the scratching when bending the high A. I will try a larger string guage as well as further lubrication in the roller. I don't foresee this being an issue for too long, but honestly, I haven't had enough time to properly sit down with the monster just yet.


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## Apophis (Jan 11, 2010)

that looks amazing  we waited so long to finally see the result


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## Hollowway (Jan 11, 2010)

That sounds just amazingly cool! Actually, I think the best parts are your ideas about the lower horn and the heel.  As far as I'm concerned that should be standard on every guitar, production and custom. 
I also really like you're on-board electronics. I know a bunch of guys on metalguitarist were saying it was a rookie mistake to put all those on there, but I personally like it; a guitar with that kind of Kahler screams out for atypical controls! 
And despite some people liking the natural finish over the black stain, I think that contrast looks killer. If I were to get a Sherman, it would be that EXACT one. But there's just no way I'm waiting the 3 years for it (or the 2.5, since iirc Mike said he finished it in the spring). 3 years ago I was only playing sixers, so who knows what I'll be doing 3 years from now! (So when you sell it, PM me, K?)


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## Meshugger (Jan 11, 2010)

Is it just me, but are the pickups angled differently? They do not look to in a parallel position.


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## zeal0us (Jan 11, 2010)

Meshugger said:


> Is it just me, but are the pickups angled differently? They do not look to in a parallel position.


 
Space constraints, it seems. Neck pickup is parallel to, and as close to the fretboard as possible, given the deep cutaway. High side of the bridge pickup is as close as it could be to the bridge, and if its low side was tilted forward to be parallel with the neck pickup, it would adversely affect the tonal difference between the two pickups. A little sacrifice in aesthetic symmetry to maintain tonal variety, IMO.

Oh, and, that beast is gorgeous- Congrats to the OP


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## Winspear (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh man, awesome  Great to finally see this - I'd given up hope as it had been so long since this thread was made. This is a major inspiration for my upcoming 8 
Thanks!


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## Cool711 (Jan 11, 2010)

^Excellent!

Yeah, the angle for the pickups is different, but it was done to match the angle changes of the fan in order to keep them in the same relative position of ordinary pickups on fixed-scale guitars.

I agree that the heel and horn should be standard on most guitars. It just makes sense. 

And as far as the electronics goes, they are pretty simple to me. Basically what I did was to eliminate the need for a floorboard:

The controls are designed to have a volume and a tone for each pickup.
One master volume which the toggle engages so that it can be set low and immediately engage clean.

There is an EMG Afterburner for solo boost and an EMG expander control for mid-cut and boost (good for acoustic tones, as well as switching colors for rhythm riffs and lead lines that aren't solos.)

This enables me to move around the stage and at any point be able to do what I need. 
It also makes setup easier, as I only need one channel on my amp with no foot controller, and still able to get all the variety I need.


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 11, 2010)

Looks really gorgeous! Congrats!


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## Erik Hauri (Jan 15, 2010)

Wow - this really happened! Congrats to you and Mike - and Kahler!

But man - $900 trem....


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## Cool711 (Jan 15, 2010)

Yeah, I basically paid for them to tool up to be able to do it.

Ah well, at least everyone else after will benefit, because I think it should be cheaper now, since the prototype is done.

Update on the performance: The high A really is giving some problems in terms of ringing out.

The string break angle (or lack thereof) seems to be having a significant effect.
I am carrying it in to my local luthier to see if we can sink the treble side so as to increase the angle.

Will post updates as to the performance.

As for the guitar itself, I must say that it really does play like a Ferrari.


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## Erik Hauri (Jan 17, 2010)

Cool711 said:


> As for the guitar itself, I must say that it really does play like a Ferrari.



Fast as hell - but watch out for the cost of a tuneup!!


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## vansinn (Jan 17, 2010)

Cool711 said:


> Yeah, I basically paid for them to tool up to be able to do it.
> 
> Ah well, at least everyone else after will benefit, because I think it should be cheaper now, since the prototype is done.
> 
> ...



Über cool 
Would you mind posting your future fanned Kahler experiences in the Kahler-pro-2228k-stability thread?


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## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2010)

Cool711 said:


> Yeah, I basically paid for them to tool up to be able to do it.
> 
> Ah well, at least everyone else after will benefit, because I think it should be cheaper now, since the prototype is done.
> 
> ...



Mike mentioned on MG.org that he thought sinking the treble side might benefit it. Maybe send it back to him, since he's the builder? I'm just thinking the local guy might jack it up, and then you've got a bunch of people pointing fingers at who should fix it.


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## Cool711 (Jan 19, 2010)

Nah, I think I will keep it with the local guy.

I trust him, and if he messes it up (which I doubt he will), just an excuse to have a new one made, lol.

Will post the updates on the bridge in the Kahler thread.

I'm supposed to be taking it in to him this week.

What I did notice, though, is that the saddle for the high A is much much lower than the rest. Not sure if this was intentional or not, so will try adjusting this first, as it may be the root of the problem.


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## Winspear (Jul 16, 2010)

Very sorry to bump this...But I'm desperate for some final word on wether this trem is good or bad. 

The only other info I found was here, but I was looking for a more detailed reply on the trem itself.
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/pi...h/111894-extended-range-pups.html#post1910423


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## junkdrop1 (Jul 22, 2010)

I'd like to know also.

Is it available? Order-able? How well is it functioning now that it's been 'broken in'?

I'm currently researching getting a fanned 8-string built (somewhere), and would like to know if the Kahler really works.

Greg


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## 101101110110001 (Aug 2, 2010)

And I'd like to know also.
anybody knows that kahler want to start serial produce that type of tremolo for fanned fret 7,8 str guitars? 
sorry for my bad english.((


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## Winspear (Aug 2, 2010)

junkdrop1 said:


> I'd like to know also.
> 
> Is it available? Order-able? How well is it functioning now that it's been 'broken in'?
> 
> ...





101101110110001 said:


> And I'd like to know also.
> anybody knows that kahler want to start serial produce that type of tremolo for fanned fret 7,8 str guitars?
> sorry for my bad english.((



I'm fairly sure they are orderable. I just want to know if the problems Mike Sherman and Cool711 spoke of with the trem are actually issues with the trem unit itself.
Typical the one person known to have one is _not_ a forum whore


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## Hollowway (Aug 2, 2010)

EtherealEntity said:


> I'm fairly sure they are orderable. I just want to know if the problems Mike Sherman and Cool711 spoke of with the trem are actually issues with the trem unit itself.


 Yeah, but not so much the unit itself as how it's mounted to the body. Cool711's feeling was that it needs to be sunken into the body a bit to allow the highest string to have enough of a break angle over the roller. Come to think of it, it could be designed with a roller on TOP of the string between the cam and the regular roller to keep the string pressed down enough to allow for a decent break angle. Might cause too much friction, though.


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## Bobulot (Aug 2, 2010)

The kahler-esque Washburn Wonderbar used that type of arrangement to keep the entire unit surface mountable with no routing. It went like this:
fine tuners \ fixed Middle roller / intonation roller
Adding something like that to a kahler might be kind of weird to get your hand around if it ends up poking out too much, and the string would probably have to be modified to sit higher at the fine tuners somehow. Plus the additional friction would probably affect tuning like you mentioned.


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## Cool711 (Sep 9, 2010)

Sorry for the late reply guys.
Just now seeing the thread.

Ok, a couple things:
1. I haven't had the money yet to have the work that needs to be done, well, done. lol (Paying for the sinking on the treble side.)

2. The roller saddle on the high A keeps dropping, and I'm yet to figure out why. I've tried every version of adjustment I can think of, so at this point I think it may be a defective saddle and will have to have it changed out.
Basically, when the saddle height is set, it keeps dropping, almost magically by itself, so I'm thinking it has been threaded.

When the saddle is adjusted to the correct height, the string break angle is ok, but I still feel sinking the treble side would be the best course of action. 
Additionally, since each string has a different angle, I will attempt to calculate the exact angle the bridge needs to be sunk in order to appropriately compensate, thereby giving each string the break angle of a straight bridge.

When successful, I will post the angle so that others having the same setup can use it.

So far, the guitar hasn't gotten much use actually. 
I've come to the conclusion that the pickups really do sound horrible (EMG bass pups), so I've been saving up to get some real ones. (But at approx $400 per, this has taken precedent over the bridge situation.)

Incidentally, my band is out gigging in South Florida, so if you'd like to check out the guitar in person and you're around, stop by a show and see me after.
Always good to meet forum members.

I hate coming onto boards to plug a band, but in this case I'll make an exception since it's really about the guitar.
If you're interested, check Naked Vengence Official Band Website &#8230; NV is coming. to see when we're playing near you and email beforehand so I'll make sure to carry it to the show.

Cheers.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 10, 2010)

Diatenshi said:


> I am not sure what exactly the 28" or 30" scale is, I suppose I have some more learning to do haha. is it the distance between the frets? or the length of the actual neck?


It's the distance from the nut to the bridge. Since the bridges are adjustable for intonation reasons, this is usually calculated as 'length from to nut to 12th fret x 2'.


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## Cool711 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thread revamp!

I'm putting this guitar up for sale (it's in the Guitars for Sale section of the site), so just thought I'd end the thread with this.


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## skeels (Sep 8, 2013)

Hollowway said:


> That sounds just amazingly cool! . 3 years ago I was only playing sixers, so who knows what I'll be doing 3 years from now! (So when you sell it, PM me, K?)



The circle is complete.


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## Hollowway (Sep 8, 2013)

skeels said:


> The circle is complete.



Haha, totally! He and I just recently talked about it. Unfortunately, after trying really hard to get into the high A stuff, I finally gave up. And I'm just not a fan of Kahlers. So I missed my window on this one. Still, it's an absolutely killer guitar.


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