# Tips on writing metal in general (for a djenty/tech/melodeath band/songs)



## vhmetalx (Apr 22, 2010)

well the title says it all mostly. i like the groovyness of the djent (take icarus lives for example), the fast execution of tech, and the melodies of the melodeath and i wanna combine them into one awesome (band hopefully) but if not then atleast to be able to know how to write this stuff. is there a certain progression or key or something i should write in?? (note i dont know alot of music theory AT ALL so if you could explain some stuff id love you forever) 
Please help me out, ive been wanting to write for atleast 2 years and i never could.. 
Thanks!


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## NaYoN (Apr 22, 2010)

Well for groove stuff I initially lay down a beat. Some kind of tempo, maybe even clapped with your hands. If you want it to be applicable to tech death, you have to make sure it's a beat that doesn't ever let go, it must keep going, or the song will lose its tempo. Also, one other tip that I have for turning anything deathcore into tech death is, write a breakdown, and instead of spamming the only kick pedals, play the same beat on the snare too, adds a much more 'badass' feel to the music.

For the melody part, find at least two scales that share around 2-4 notes, and then just keep playing in them until it clicks for you. Some keys I would recommend is the so-called jewish scale (I think it's phyrigian dominant mode 7 or something like that) the frets go like 0-1-4-5-7-8-10. Also try the whole tone scale, and any other scale, really. Try to look into some jazz scales and chord progressions maybe.

Also, when randomly noodling around a scale, make sure that you don't just play with the same tempo. Accentuate some notes, add random triplets (the more unexpected the better) and use staccatos and stop-go patterns, that will make it more 'techy' and also possibly 'djenty'.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 22, 2010)

NaYoN said:


> Some keys I would recommend is the so-called jewish scale (I think it's phyrigian dominant mode 7 or something like that) the frets go like 0-1-4-5-7-8-10.



This is phrygian dominant, the fifth mode of harmonic minor.

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The best I can recommend is to learn some of this theory stuff so that you can communicate more effectively and see the relationships between different musical ideas. This means intervals, chord types, chord symbols, scale formation, and various rhythmic ideas. I don't know how experienced you are with music theory, but we like to reduce things down to numbers. The notes of a major scale, for instance, are represented by the numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (1). This removes the note names from the equation. If 1 = C, then the formula yields this: C D E F G A B (C)

1 = C
2 = D
3 = E
4 = F
5 = G
6 = A
7 = B

If 1 = G, then the formula yields this: G A B C D E F# (G)

1 = G
2 = A
3 = B
4 = C
5 = D
6 = E
7 = F#

So far, it just looks like a cool trick, but it is an effective way to explain scale structure. We can alter the formula to yield other scales.
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 is the formula for the natural minor scale.

G minor: G A Bb C D Eb F

1 = G
2 = A
3 = Bb
4 = C
5 = D
b6 = Eb
b7 = F

If we want phrygian dominant, that's 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7.
Lydian is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7.
Mixolydian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7.
Lydian dominant is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (this scales is also known as lydian-mixolydian - see why?).

I won't go much farther than that right now; I'm just trying to show how musicians can communicate ideas in shorthand that does not depend on what key or tuning you're in. We have the same thing for chord progressions and just about anything else that can be quantified in music; it's all very numeric, and understanding that can really open up not only the fretboard, but music in general.


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## vhmetalx (Apr 22, 2010)

Well i dont know ALOt of theory at all.. i have read up on using numbers to describe the scales before but it doesnt seem to crack my thick skull... 
and ive learnt/writtin down 6 modes but ive forgotten them all and havent memorized them all yet.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 22, 2010)

The scale number thing is really quite useful, once you know how to do some things with it. It's just a question of finding a purpose or use to relate it to music. You said you learned six of the major scale modes? Well, let's look at them and see if we can learn something, using the numbers:







You can see there that we're starting with the lydian mode, and flatting scale degrees to get to the next mode on the list. Therefore, once you have a flatted degree, it will be in all of the other subsequent modes down that list. On the right of the diagram, you can see that flats are being added to the scale. What's even cooler, it conforms to the circle of fifths. If we make these modes on C, these are the notes:

C lydian: C D E F# G A B - 1 sharp
C ionian: C D E F G A B - no accidentals
C mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb - 1 flat
C dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb - 2 flats
C aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb - 3 flats
C phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb - 4 flats
C locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb - 5 flats

And now, we take a look at this thing:






Key of G: 1 sharp
Key of C: no accidentals
Key of F: 1 flat
Key of Bb: 2 flats
Key of Eb: 3 flats
Key of Ab: 4 flats
Key of Db: 5 flats

Look familiar? If you go find C in each of those keys, you will find that it is the tonic of each of the modes in the order of the first diagram.


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## vhmetalx (Apr 22, 2010)

gosh you are throwin alot at me. i appreciate it alot!
so when it says (dorian for example) 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7, that means the 3rd and 7th note played in that mode is a flat note? which would mean every 3rd note and every 7th note played on that mode would be flat correct? 
and what is the circle of fifths? is that just the order the modes go in like in that picture where it goes from a sharp to no sharp/flat notes then it keeps adding that flat to make it 5 modes in a row with flats?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 23, 2010)

The circle of fifths is a lot of things. I think its most common usage is to explain key relationships. Basically, it tells you how many accidentals are in a given key signature, and which accidentals those are. I took the time tonight to make the most information-packed circle of fifths I've seen, because I always find online diagrams to be missing something.






Here's how it works: pick a key. Let's say E, for example. If you look on the circle, on the sharp side, E major is the one with four sharps in the key signature. That's all fine and good, but how do we know which notes are sharp? Well, if you look at the top right of the diagram, you'll see that the order of sharps is FCGDAEB. This means that you count down those notes until you reach the number that's by the key, sharpen those notes, and leave all the other ones natural. In the case of E major, F, C, G, and D are all sharpened. Therefore, the key of E, if we start on E, contains E F# G# A B C# D#.


Now, regarding modes and those scale numbers. This is the process you want to think:

1. Start with the major scale you want to make a mode out of. Let's continue with E: E F# G# A B C# D#
2. Select a modal formula. Let's say we want dorian, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7.
I know that it says b3 and b7 there, but that only means to lower that note a half step - not necessarily to put a flat in front of it.
3. Apply the alterations to the scale. E major is E F# G# A B C# D#. 3 is G#, 7 is D#. If we take each one down a half step, then b3 is G, and b7 is D.

So, E dorian is E F# G A B C# D. (You can check this: find the key with two sharps in it, go to the second mode, and voilà.)


Compare:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 : E F# G# A B C# D#
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7: E F# G A B C# D



With the flat keys, it's the same process. Say we want to find the key signature for the key of Db. Look on the left of the diagram, see that Db has five flats, look up at the top left to see the order of flats: BEADGCF.
Db has five flats, so count five in: BEADG. Therefore, the key of Db contains the notes Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C.

Now, say we want to find Db mixolydian. The formula for mixolydian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7.
7 is C, so b7 is Cb.
Altogether, Db mixolydian is Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb.


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## darbdavys (Apr 23, 2010)

And wouldn't it be easier to actually know from which tones which scales are made (like lydian is made from the 4th, so if you need F lydian, you think of it like the 4, so 1 would be C, which means there are no sharps. or if you need A locrian, you know, that it is made from the 7th, so the 1st would be Bb, which equals 2 flats)?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 23, 2010)

darbdavys said:


> And wouldn't it be easier to actually know from which tones which scales are made (like lydian is made from the 4th, so if you need F lydian, you think of it like the 4, so 1 would be C, which means there are no sharps. or if you need A locrian, you know, that it is made from the 7th, so the 1st would be Bb, which equals 2 flats)?



They're two different relationships. Being able to make modifications to go between C ionian and C lydian exercises parallel modality, and calling C lydian the fourth mode of G major demonstrates relative modality. Really, musicians should learn both. And they often do. Right now, I'm just trying to provide some tools to get the OP more fluent in theory.


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## Metal Ken (Apr 23, 2010)

For writing atonal/chromatic heaviness, check out Ron Jarzombek's Circle of Twelve Tones:

The Circle Of 12 Tones


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## Metal Ken (Apr 23, 2010)

A video explaination.


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## malin (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm learning all this stuff...and by reading all your post, I'm having a nervous breakdown


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## youheardme (May 19, 2010)

Where does the order of flats and sharps come from?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 20, 2010)

If you go clockwise one or counterclockwise one on the circle of fifths, what you are really doing is transposing up or down by a perfect fifth. So, if we use the key of C major as our starting point, and transpose each scale degree up by a perfect fifth, this is what we get:

1 - C -> G
2 - D -> A
3 - E -> B
4 - F -> C
5 - G -> D
6 - A -> E
7 - B -> F#

From this, we can say that the key of G has the note F# in it, but all other notes are natural. Let's do the same thing from G, now.

1 - G -> D
2 - A -> E
3 - B -> F#
4 - C -> G
5 - D -> A
6 - E -> B
7 - F# -> C#

You can see that the key of D has two sharps, F# and C#. If you continue transposing up by a fifth, then you will find that every key will have the notes of the previous one, but one note will change. Therefore, we can order these accidentals by order of their appearance.


Going in the flat direction, just for completeness' sake, we will be descending by a perfect fifth. So, everything has to be transposed down by a perfect fifth when going from key to key.

1 - C -> F
2 - D -> G
3 - E -> A
4 - F -> Bb
5 - G -> C
6 - A -> D
7 - B -> E



Continue that idea from the key of F, an you get this:

1 - F ->Bb
2 - G ->C
3 - A -> D
4 - Bb -> Eb
5 - C -> F
6 - D -> G
7 - E -> A

Keep going, and you get the order of flats.


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## Stealthdjentstic (May 20, 2010)

This thread makes my brain hurt.


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## Empryrean (May 20, 2010)

Oh mike your too much sometimes


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 20, 2010)

Sometime's it's better to just accept the Circle of Fifths.


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## etiam (May 20, 2010)

The circle is like the law of general relativity. It's so complex that it's simple in its complexity. Or maybe it's so simple that it's complex. In either event, once you crack it (as much as it can be cracked), it's a wonderfully handy tool.


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## ittoa666 (May 20, 2010)

Looking at theory makes me wanna learn it, but also makes me hate it. So much stuff.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 20, 2010)

ittoa666 said:


> Looking at theory makes me wanna learn it, but also makes me hate it. So much stuff.



Do it, dude. You only have to worry about twelve notes, for the most part, and learning this shit helps you to see music in comprehensive chunks, rather than note-by-note.


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## BlackMetalVenom (May 20, 2010)

Too lazy to read the thread...even if a couple of posts.
But I find that this trick helps me find the modes of scales.
Using C Major as an example:

C Ionian; None, duh!

C Dorian; Two half-steps down| Bb Major

C Phrygian; Four half-steps down| Ab/G# Major

C Lydian; Next scale on the circle of fifths from original scale. So G Maj for C, D Maj for G,
A Maj for D, etc. For b scales it's the one behind it.
C Maj for F, F Maj for Bb, Bb Maj for Eb, etc.

C Mixolydian; Five half-steps up| F Major

C Aeolian; Three half-steps up| Eb Major

C Locrian; One half-step up| Db/C# Major

It's also great to know the intervals such as the ones that SchecterWhore posted, but this is a shortcut to finding out a mode for any particular major scale.
I COULD be wrong, but I've found it to work all of the time, any mistakes on this please feel free to correct them. 
Of course, the trick to modes are the chords behind the scale. 
Hope this helps in some way.


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## youheardme (May 24, 2010)

I think i understand how the co5's goes up by 5ths, clockwise sharp, counter flat but.

I'm still having some trouble with

B E A D G C F - flats, sharps - F C G D A E B


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 24, 2010)

youheardme said:


> I think i understand how the co5's goes up by 5ths, clockwise sharp, counter flat but.
> 
> I'm still having some trouble with
> 
> B E A D G C F - flats, sharps - F C G D A E B



The key with one sharp is G/Em. The sharp in that key is F#. The key with two sharps is D/Bm. The sharps in that key are F# C#. The key with three sharps is A/F#m. Those sharps are F# C# G#. The key with four sharps is E/C#m. Those sharps are F# C# G# D#. It's a pattern that just arises, dude. Everytime you move by a fifth in either direction, one note will be different between the two keys. If you have a key with seven sharps, they will be F# C# G# D# A# E# B#. They are added on in that order. You do the same thing going the flat side.


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## AustinW90 (May 25, 2010)

The most important thing with learning scales is to just memorize the basic sound and flavor of them so you can recognize and identitfy one whenever you hear it. Learn all the key intervals in scales that give them their own distinct flavor (like the #4 in lydian).

Try ear training with them, it really helped me.

Here's a really good website that can give anyone a good understanding of scales and chord construction:

Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net


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## youheardme (May 26, 2010)

AustinW90 said:


> The most important thing with learning scales is to just memorize the basic sound and flavor of them so you can recognize and identitfy one whenever you hear it. Learn all the key intervals in scales that give them their own distinct flavor (like the #4 in lydian).
> 
> Try ear training with them, it really helped me.
> 
> ...





This Ricci Adams' website is awesome... Thanks


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## ShreddingDragon (May 26, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> They're two different relationships. Being able to make modifications to go between C ionian and C lydian exercises parallel modality, and calling C lydian the fourth mode of G major demonstrates relative modality. Really, musicians should learn both. And they often do. Right now, I'm just trying to provide some tools to get the OP more fluent in theory.



Thanks for this little info bit. Now I know that I the method I know how to use is called parallel modality, and the one I cannot is relative modality.  I just can't wrap my head around making modes by starting from a different note of the scale. It feels a lot easier to just make alterations to the major scale. Should try to learn relative modality next.


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