# Best Places to Live (USA Edition)



## SpaceDock (May 7, 2021)

The job I have had for the last 15 years has kept me in the same area I went to college. Due to the Work From Home movement, I think they are going to let us work from home forever. This is giving me the option to consider living anywhere in the USA. 

I thought it would be fun to start a thread where we discuss the best places to live in the USA and why. I bet lots of folks are finding themselves in my position.

I currently live in Northern Colorado which is considered one of the nicest places by various polls, but real estate sucks. We have mild weather but winter can be rough. What I dislike is the lack of trees, never rains, and is very expensive. What I like is the abundance of sunny days, great views, very chill social atmosphere. 

Let me know what you guys think!


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## MaxOfMetal (May 7, 2021)

I've lived in a number of states, and if I had to choose a favorite it'd be Arizona, specifically the western suburbs of Phoenix, like Sun City or Peoria. 

The area is absolutely beautiful, cost of living is fairly cheap, you're less than a 45 minute drive from tons of restaurants, guitar stores, etc. and the people are the nicest in the country. 

If I could move back tomorrow, I would without hesitation. I look for retirement options out there almost monthly.


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## MFB (May 7, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've lived in a number of states, and if I had to choose a favorite it'd be Arizona, specifically the western suburbs of Phoenix, like Sun City or Peoria.



Obligatory KOTH reference for Arizona


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## Hollowway (May 8, 2021)

I can tell you where NOT to live: California. It’s nice weather, and there are tons of stuff to do, but the cost of living, taxes, and real estate make it nearly impossible to afford. A lot of people got lucky and got a house during the recession 10 years ago, but since then it’s gotten more and more expensive. 

I went to Nashville a couple of years ago, and fell in love with the place. That’s top of my “places to consider” list.


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## sleewell (May 8, 2021)

I lived in Nashville for a bit. It is great. Love the food, of course love the music. 

I lived in socal for a while after college. Pros and cons for sure. It was fun while it lasted but I'm glad I didnt stay there permanently. Living almost on the beach had some amazing memories but it's so dang crowded bc of how nice it is. 

I love living in Michigan. It feels like home and there is lots to do. I love the weather. The cold doesnt bother me bc I actually don't like really hot.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 8, 2021)

MFB said:


> Obligatory KOTH reference for Arizona



 Love KotH.

Obligatory reply: _"It's a dry heat."
_
Really though, it's not terrible. I'd take that any day over Florida, where I also lived. The whole state is designed around knowing it's hot as fuck, so everything is covered, air conditioned, fanned, misted, done at night, etc. 

The hardest thing to adapt to was actually just how dry it is. I woke up with nosebleeds for the first week and a half. 

Totally worth it for no seasonal allergies.


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## High Plains Drifter (May 8, 2021)

Many people moving into central Texas over the last decade or so are finding that if they're going to work in Austin, they're gonna have to commute b/c the cost of renting and owning homes/ apts within the city are just outrageously high... Renting a 600 sq ft apt could set you back $2000 mo. for something halfway nice and the median home in Austin costs $347,000... well above the states average. Crazy growth around the ATX area over the last couple decades... often times bucking national negative/ recessive housing market trends so that is one good thing economically speaking. 

If you dislike a lack of rain, I sure wouldn't recommend moving to central Texas. We go for months at a time with little to no rain. Also summer is just excruciatingly hot with plenty of humidity in the am/ pm hours. Most areas surrounding Austin are void of any abundance of thick arboreal growth although there are some pockets scattered throughout the state. 

As for the other things you've mentioned... Very chill vibe in Austin as long as you're not on the roadways. Awesome music scene... 24/ 365 aside from the negative impact that covid restrictions had last year. Tons and tons of sunny days and with the exception of this past winter, very mild throughout the winter months. Also there are some very scenic areas around central Texas but at least imo, not enough to balance out the negatives.


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## mmr007 (Jul 17, 2021)

Nashville…just…yeah


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## Ralyks (Jul 19, 2021)

I'm honestly considering disappearing to Portland, Maine as a retirement spot.


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## devastone (Jul 19, 2021)

SpaceDock said:


> The job I have had for the last 15 years has kept me in the same area I went to college. Due to the Work From Home movement, I think they are going to let us work from home forever. This is giving me the option to consider living anywhere in the USA.
> 
> I thought it would be fun to start a thread where we discuss the best places to live in the USA and why. I bet lots of folks are finding themselves in my position.
> 
> ...



Howdy neighbor! I live in Longmont. 

Colorado is nice, although being a southern boy from the Appalachians, I do miss the rain and green mountains. The lack of humidity is nice though, mtn biking in 95 deg is much better than 

Yep, CO is getting expensive, although I was in San Diego a few weeks ago and we have a long way to go to get to that kind of real estate stupidity, but I still haven't figured out how to get in a house here so good thing I don't live there. The house I walked away from in my divorce is over $500k now and it's just a normal house in a house farm.


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## jaxadam (Jul 19, 2021)

devastone said:


> Howdy neighbor! I live in Longmont.
> 
> Colorado is nice, although being a southern boy from the Appalachians, I do miss the rain and green mountains. The lack of humidity is nice though, mtn biking in 95 deg is much better than
> 
> Yep, CO is getting expensive, although I was in San Diego a few weeks ago and we have a long way to go to get to that kind of real estate stupidity, but I still haven't figured out how to get in a house here so good thing I don't live there. The house I walked away from in my divorce is over $500k now and it's just a normal house in a house farm.



If you want to get a real handle on the market, follow Zillow Gone Wild. Check out this jewel...

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/..._jUcX2UlV0r5ET1RF_gthRxWfcUGzK6JBt3qDN6IBjEbQ

Here's another pretty good one:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5120-S-Mariposa-Dr-Gilbert-AZ-85298/95164685_zpid/


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## thebeesknees22 (Jul 19, 2021)

woooow, that interior on that first link. Lol That's special.


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## Drew (Jul 20, 2021)

SpaceDock said:


> I currently live in Northern Colorado which is considered one of the nicest places by various polls, but real estate sucks. We have mild weather but winter can be rough. What I dislike is the lack of trees, never rains, and is very expensive. What I like is the abundance of sunny days, great views, very chill social atmosphere.


It's not without its problems (bostjan has talked at length about the political dysfunction thanks to the Democratic Socialist/Democratic/Republican split Sanders brought to the country), but I'd say Vermont should at least be on your radar, and at a minimum it's a great excuse to go up for a week's vacation or somthing. 

Colorado in many ways is moving towards Vermont, socially, as it's liberalized and become a purple state - outdoor athletics/nature/adrenaline junkie focus between the two seem pretty similar to me. Vermont also has a GREAT local food scene - somehow it was never as industrialized as a lot of neighboring states so farm to table is much, much more prevalent than anywhere else I've spent time, and there's an incredible microbrew movement happening. The natural beauty is very different from Colorado - the Green Mountains, comparied to the Rockies - but in the parts of the state that aren't farmland there are rolling mountains everywhere, and there's no shortage of trees. There are also more dirt roads than paved in the state, which depending on your interests is either a selling point or a concern. Plenty of rain too. 

New Hampshire is like Vermont but with a libertarian skew and a bit more of a rough around the edges "fuck you" than Vermont's stoner "don't kill our vibe" sort of thing. White Mountains are similarly stunning, and more jagged than the Greens, but every four years you have to deal with national politics, and while there's. no income tax you pay for pretty much everything else. The Catskills in New York deserve a nod, too, though much of the rest of the state doesn't have that same mountanous feel to it. I've lived in Mass most of my life, do love it here, miss the northern Berkshires (worth a look as well for reasons similar to Vermont). Maine is worth a look too, especially coastal Maine - Acadia National Park is one of my favorite places ever - and expecially if uou don't mind rain.  Inland Maine gets pretty... empty, though. 

Idunno though. Colorado culture plus trees, rain, and - outside of tourist hotspots and ski towns like Stowe, for instance - cost of living make me think Vermont.


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## bostjan (Jul 20, 2021)

Drew said:


> It's not without its problems (bostjan has talked at length about the political dysfunction thanks to the Democratic Socialist/Democratic/Republican split Sanders brought to the country), but I'd say Vermont should at least be on your radar, and at a minimum it's a great excuse to go up for a week's vacation or somthing.
> 
> Colorado in many ways is moving towards Vermont, socially, as it's liberalized and become a purple state - outdoor athletics/nature/adrenaline junkie focus between the two seem pretty similar to me. Vermont also has a GREAT local food scene - somehow it was never as industrialized as a lot of neighboring states so farm to table is much, much more prevalent than anywhere else I've spent time, and there's an incredible microbrew movement happening. The natural beauty is very different from Colorado - the Green Mountains, comparied to the Rockies - but in the parts of the state that aren't farmland there are rolling mountains everywhere, and there's no shortage of trees. There are also more dirt roads than paved in the state, which depending on your interests is either a selling point or a concern. Plenty of rain too.
> 
> ...



Yes, VT is actually a pretty cool place to live, overall, if you are tolerant of cold and don't mind having the 2nd or 3rd highest tax rate in the US. If you move to Burlington, you'd have most of the amenities of the city. ... and if you move somewhere near enough to Burlington, you get to be somewhere near enough to someplace with most of the urban amenities. Or you could be a crazy person like me and move out to the Northeast Kingdom, where there is no Walmart, no McDonald's, lots of trees, etc. There is even a town out here with an official population of zero, so if you move there, you could be the mayor!

-------------------

I have family in northern Michigan, and it's like Vermont, but with lower cost of living, slightly more hillbillies, and tons more snow. All three of those things might be plusses for you...or not.

I've also lived in Indianapolis, and it wasn't for me. Hot summers, mild winters, super low cost of living, but there were a lot of vast cultural differences between me and pretty much everyone else in my neighbourhood. Also lots of rampant racism out in the open there. Probably 99% of the people were cool (I don't know), just that the 1% (or more) of the people who were racist were very open about it. And I don't mean prejudice or discriminatory, I'm talking white coats and pointy hats. I'd never be able to go back there.

I've kind of been everywhere, but only lived a few places. I grew up in Detroit city, and that's one place I can 100% recommend against. You _could_ get a house there for like $5000 cash, but then you'd not only be $5k poorer, but you'd also own a house in Detroit (lose-lose scenario). Maybe it's better now than it was in the 80's/90's, but back then, there were a lot of murders. Two of the people who lived directly across the street from me were shot and killed by the police (two totally separate instances), for example. It's not just murders, but the amount of general violence and just random insane shit you see was pretty much daily there. But anyway, this isn't a topic of how nasty Detroit is and I think I made my point.

The USA is a huge country, so I'm sure there's a place for everyone here. It depends on what you like. If you want lots of trees, great views, and a chill social atmosphere, VT should be right up your alley. Sunny days... well, not too much, but, honestly, I think California pretty much has the #1 slot in that department. Then again, there is the whole Northern part of California that most people forget is part of California, too.


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## Drew (Jul 20, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Or you could be a crazy person like me and move out to the Northeast Kingdom, where there is no Walmart, no McDonald's, lots of trees, etc. There is even a town out here with an official population of zero, so if you move there, you could be the mayor!


Fucking incredible riding though. 



bostjan said:


> Then again, there is the whole Northern part of California that most people forget is part of California, too.


This is a great point - I haven't spent a TON of time in California, but as you move north of San Francisco, well... Marin County ain't cheap, but it's well known for a reason. Absolutely stunning countryside.


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## BenjaminW (Jul 20, 2021)

Drew said:


> This is a great point - I haven't spent a TON of time in California, but as you move north of San Francisco, well... Marin County ain't cheap, but it's well known for a reason. Absolutely stunning countryside.


Marin County (and Sausalito in particular) is absolutely stunning. Looking at houses there is a lot like GAS, but for me it's 10,000 times stronger than GAS. It's just so damn nice out there.


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## jco5055 (Jul 22, 2021)

Anyone got recommendations for places without a car? I know that really just limits cities, but even a lot of cities in the US aren't very public transit or walkable friendly...I've been all over the country so far, and my favorites have been Seattle, Boston, and NYC...visitng San Fran and LA in a month. But I am interested in plenty of other places like Denver, New Mexico, DC/Baltimore, Austin etc etc...really open to anything.


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## Kaura (Jul 22, 2021)

No love for Minnesota? I've never even visited USA but that's where I'd move mostly because that's where most of the Finnish immigrants moved and they can't be wrong, right? There's even a town called Finland there.


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## bostjan (Jul 22, 2021)

Kaura said:


> No love for Minnesota? I've never even visited USA but that's where I'd move mostly because that's where most of the Finnish immigrants moved and they can't be wrong, right? There's even a town called Finland there.


There used to be towns in northern Michigan where the locals used to all speak Finnish. I think those days are mostly gone, though... most of those Finish immigrants moved here 80+ years ago, so I doubt there are many still alive and their kids are probably in old age now. I assume Finland was not the nicest place to live between WWI and WWII, if the no-man's-land in between the midwestern US and not-the-two-parts-of-Canada-where-people-live was appealing enough to move half a globe away.


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## Mathemagician (Jul 22, 2021)

Have I commented already? Florida’s full. Florida sucks. We Gucci on people. Actually trying to export them. Check out Georgia, or Alabama (I got your backs guys). They have actual seasons, and hills/forests/etc. We got swamps. 

But seriously it’s pretty linear here in terms of weather and that’s not for everyone.

Need a car to do anything common in most southern states. Poor design/planning and spacing everything out.

Homes do not have basements. Can’t. Water. So you get less house per house than other states I’ve mentioned.


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## bostjan (Jul 22, 2021)

Having spent some time in various European towns, it's actually crazy how piss poor public transit is in the USA. There's the El in Chicago, and the Subway in NYC. No other cities here really have anything reliable. Bus drivers here are sometimes insane, too. I was walking on the sidewalk in Philly once and the bus jumped the curb and hit me. No broken bones, but it hurt. The bus driver started screaming at me "Why you wanna get hit by my bus?!" Like I did a bus mating call or something. The busses in Detroit are so late that you never know if one will ever come. You basically plan to get to the bus stop 15 min early and potentially wait there 2+ hrs. And here in my little town, there's one bus that goes through town twice a day. If you want to go west, it had better be at 6 AM. If you want to go east, it had better be at 11 AM.


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## jco5055 (Jul 22, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Having spent some time in various European towns, it's actually crazy how piss poor public transit is in the USA. There's the El in Chicago, and the Subway in NYC. No other cities here really have anything reliable. Bus drivers here are sometimes insane, too. I was walking on the sidewalk in Philly once and the bus jumped the curb and hit me. No broken bones, but it hurt. The bus driver started screaming at me "Why you wanna get hit by my bus?!" Like I did a bus mating call or something. The busses in Detroit are so late that you never know if one will ever come. You basically plan to get to the bus stop 15 min early and potentially wait there 2+ hrs. And here in my little town, there's one bus that goes through town twice a day. If you want to go west, it had better be at 6 AM. If you want to go east, it had better be at 11 AM.



Yeah me being in Chicago I'm now spoiled by the El and a car-free lifestyle...some places like Boston are also "good enough" imo. I'm actually very open to moving to Europe because of this issue and I generally feel like Europe is overall more left-leaning (aka Bernie Sanders isn't basically an alien with his views), at least in places like the Scandinavian countries...it's hard as hell if you don't have the ancestry to prove you are your grandparents at the oldest lived in these countries to get citizenship though.


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## USMarine75 (Jul 22, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Love KotH.
> 
> Obligatory reply: _"It's a dry heat."
> _
> ...



I lived in Yuma for 5 years. We loved it. We went to San Diego, Tempe, Phoenix, or Vegas every weekend lol.



Kaura said:


> No love for Minnesota? I've never even visited USA but that's where I'd move mostly because that's where most of the Finnish immigrants moved and they can't be wrong, right? There's even a town called Finland there.



Living in the upnah. (Joke for Minnesotans, dontcha know)


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## Drew (Jul 23, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> Yeah me being in Chicago I'm now spoiled by the El and a car-free lifestyle...some places like Boston are also "good enough" imo. I'm actually very open to moving to Europe because of this issue and I generally feel like Europe is overall more left-leaning (aka Bernie Sanders isn't basically an alien with his views), at least in places like the Scandinavian countries...it's hard as hell if you don't have the ancestry to prove you are your grandparents at the oldest lived in these countries to get citizenship though.


I'll give Boston another vote for the "good enough" category. It's a viable way of getting around, for the most part, though with a couple notable issues: 


True to the city's nickname, the subway system in Boston is laid out like a hub, with radial spokes going into the center of the city. If youre in the outskirts and want to get downtown, it's great. If you want to move radially around the outside of the city, good fucking luck.  It's faster for me to walk from Somerville to Fenway Park than it is for me to take the subway. 
The subway IS prone to delays - it's old, it struggles to keep up with volume these days as the city has grown so much in the last decade, and once it starts to get backed up, there's a critical mass point where it simply can't clear people out of the stations fast enough because the trains are packed like sardines when they _enter_ the station, and you're looking at hour plus delays. It's not as bad if you're commuting outside of rush hour, but again there have been days I'd walk to work because I walked in and took one look at the platform and knew it wasn't moving anytime soon. 
It shuts down before last call, and it hasn't been extended because we need that window for overnight maintenance because the infrastructure is so old. Come on, Boston. 
The commuter rail is pretty good as well for commuting to and from the 'burbs, again as long as you're commuting in rush hour when the trains run pretty often, but it too struggles with capacity, particularly at the parking lots. 
I started biking to work in 2019 and was only taking the subway outside of daylight savings time when I didn't want to ride in rush hour trafic after dark, and as the wintyer went on when there was snow and ice on the ground. Post covid, I'mnot sure what I'm going to do - I started riding to work in late february or early march in 2020 just to get off public transportation once we started to have community spread in CA and a few cases here in Boston, knowing how this was going to end, and now that I'm back in the office part time I'm still biking in and out, but I don't know if I'll keep it up all winter. Thhe long-awaited Green Line Extension will hit my neighborhood this October, it appears, so maybe I'll bow to convenience and start taking that. 

I guess, I WILL say that while it's still rough in the winter, Boston has become a much more bike-friendly city in recent years.


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## jco5055 (Jul 23, 2021)

Drew said:


> I'll give Boston another vote for the "good enough" category. It's a viable way of getting around, for the most part, though with a couple notable issues:
> 
> 
> True to the city's nickname, the subway system in Boston is laid out like a hub, with radial spokes going into the center of the city. If youre in the outskirts and want to get downtown, it's great. If you want to move radially around the outside of the city, good fucking luck.  It's faster for me to walk from Somerville to Fenway Park than it is for me to take the subway.
> ...



I'll check Boston out again when I'm there for the second time ever for a work meeting there in September, but when I was there in June, obviously the subway was not as good as New York's or Chicago but it's also somewhat easy to walk the city since it's comparably pretty small...plus I loved all the neighborhoods I visited like Charlestown, Back Bay, Beacon Hill, Bay Village, North End, West End etc.

Also, isn't Massachusetts one of the best states to live in?


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## Adieu (Jul 23, 2021)

Parts of Texas, Idaho, South Dakota, Utah, New Mexico


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## Drew (Jul 26, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> I'll check Boston out again when I'm there for the second time ever for a work meeting there in September, but when I was there in June, obviously the subway was not as good as New York's or Chicago but it's also somewhat easy to walk the city since it's comparably pretty small...plus I loved all the neighborhoods I visited like Charlestown, Back Bay, Beacon Hill, Bay Village, North End, West End etc.
> 
> Also, isn't Massachusetts one of the best states to live in?


Yeah, I mean, I'm agreeing with you that it's not a world class subway, but it's good enough to get by on, though with a few of those constraints.

And that's one of things I like the most about Boston - it's a geogrpahically pretty dense downtown, so most of the time when I'm going somewhere downtown (coming in on the red line), I'll just get off at Park St station and walk. Yeah, I could probably do it a little faster if I'm heading out to like the Copley area or something if I switched to the Green, or the Orange if I'm heading towards Chinatown... but in both cases I could also just walk most of the way through the Park or Public Garden, and I'm only costing myself 5 minutes for a much nicer trip. And in some cases - my office is *probably* slightly closer to South Station than Park - it's probably faster to get off earlier and walk, than to stick on the same line to the geographically closest point.

And I'm biased as hell, but yeah, Mass is a pretty good place to live. The climate is fairly temperate, we have four seasons but the summers rarely get out of the mid 90s and winters rarely dip below the teens. We have a very diverse economy, with large medical, financial, biotech, and educational employment hubs, and thanks to the latter a couple world-class school systems in Boston, and a few other nationally renouned ones statewide. Great outdoor activities, a really vigorous beer scene and burgeoning local food scene... and then at the state level, for all local bitching about "Taxachusetts," our state income tax is actually not especially high, at 6%, nor is our sales tax, at 6.5%. In return, we have unusually high unemployment benefits, we've had universal healthcare for years before the ACA (not for nothing, when Scott Brown ran for and won Ted Kennedy's senate seat by opposing the ACA, it was a pretty costless position for him because the state already had a healthcare program/individual mandate that the federal program was absed on), and we're a very socially liberal state - ne of the first states to legalize same sex marraige, the implimentation is going at a crawl but medical marijuana has been legal for years and recreational came out about a year ago, etc.

I like it here. There are downsides - cost of living is usually pretty high, especially in the urban areas, and the northeast never had to confront its own racism in quite the same way as the south did, so I think there's still a fair amount of quietly embedded systematic racism to contend with, but even thaty's beginning to improve, slowly, and while I might have sang a very different tune five or six years ago, at least we don't have those White Pride fucks out holding rallies - the one time they tried, they got about twenty people, including a bunch from out of town, against _thousands_ of counterprotesters.


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

Bumping this to say that my gf and I have narrowed it down to either NYC or Seattle or San Fran (basically we decided to narrow it down as pick an East Coast Winner (NYC beat out Boston) and still trying to determine West Coast, and West Coast will compete with NYC for the winner). I like NYC, mostly for the amenities that a very large city has (like actually decent Public Transit), and the weather isn't quite midwest/Chicago bad, but I also have quite the calling to the west coast cities I mentioned-they just seem so nice and the nature/surrounding areas/even the air is just so nice imo. 

We are thinking of going to Seattle in January (we've been to all of our choices already but only in summer) to see if the gloom/cloudiness is too much, especially for her. I think i'd be fine with it myself. If it's not too bad, we may also consider Portland, as we were there before but probably not long enough to really form an opinion.


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## bostjan (Oct 6, 2021)

Wow, you picked three of the most expensive places to live. If you can afford it, more power to ya.

I had a couple friends who moved to Seattle in the 90's and all came back with their souls crushed. That was 25 years ago, so I imagine everything ahs changed by now. I've been to SF before and thought it was a really neat place to visit. It'd probably be neat to live there, too, if I had a bottomless wallet full of money, but rent there is just nuts.


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Wow, you picked three of the most expensive places to live. If you can afford it, more power to ya.
> 
> I had a couple friends who moved to Seattle in the 90's and all came back with their souls crushed. That was 25 years ago, so I imagine everything ahs changed by now. I've been to SF before and thought it was a really neat place to visit. It'd probably be neat to live there, too, if I had a bottomless wallet full of money, but rent there is just nuts.



well we make a little over $150k combined per year, so we have a hard limit of 3k montly rent we'd be open to...definitely not going to have the pick of the litter but it's not terrible. 

I can't imagine if I was single and wanting to live alone affording a place though


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> well we make a little over $150k combined per year, so we have a hard limit of 3k montly rent we'd be open to...definitely not going to have the pick of the litter but it's not terrible.
> 
> I can't imagine if I was single and wanting to live alone affording a place though


Avoid SF or NYC then. 3k a month won't get you shit there. Seattle has really awful traffic but it's a really nice city and is super close to a lot of awesome state/national parks.


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Avoid SF or NYC then. 3k a month won't get you shit there.



we've done some looking for fun and there seems to be things technically available, just have to dive deep into the apartment finder kind of websites.

Let me clarify that we also are very city people in that we are fine with not having a house/don't need an apartment to be like a house, only mention that because some of your frineds that live in very affordable cities like St Louis or even Minneapolis visit us and they think our 2 bedroom place is just unlivable haha.


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## bostjan (Oct 6, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Avoid SF or NYC then. 3k a month won't get you shit there. Seattle has really awful traffic but it's a really nice city and is super close to a lot of awesome state/national parks.


Yeah, I'm shocked that you ( @jco5055 ) are considering NYC or SF for $3k/mo. I guess the pandemic caused some readjustments in rent prices, but the last I saw, a one bedroom in SF was something like $3800/mo for starts. It depends where in the city, of course, but even Chicago apartments I priced in 2007 were generally over $5k/month for anything I'd _want_ to live in, and at the time, SF was averaging $1k more than Chicago.


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Yeah, I'm shocked that you ( @jco5055 ) are considering NYC or SF for $3k/mo. I guess the pandemic caused some readjustments in rent prices, but the last I saw, a one bedroom in SF was something like $3800/mo for starts. It depends where in the city, of course, but even Chicago apartments I priced in 2007 were generally over $5k/month for anything I'd _want_ to live in, and at the time, SF was averaging $1k more than Chicago.



Maybe we just have different neighborhoods/amenities etc we are into? because we pay $1700 for our place, and it's definitely fine for us, and even when we thought about moving out when we had a bit of a landlord issue we still set a max of $2600 and that's if it hit everything we wanted (Central air/dishwasher/cat friendly/2 bedrooms/2 bathrooms/nice kitchen), and there were options available for sure with these parameters.


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## Drew (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> Let me clarify that we also are very city people in that we are fine with not having a house/don't need an apartment to be like a house, only mention that because some of your frineds that live in very affordable cities like St Louis or even Minneapolis visit us and they think our 2 bedroom place is just unlivable haha.


Of those three, Seattle, for a whole slew of reasons. No one in their right mind should live in NYC or San Francisco these days.  

But, you also may need to rethink your budget. $150k/yr for a couple is barely middle class even here in Boston, and for $3k in Boston and the immediately bordering suburbs, that's going to get you a small 1-2 bedroom condo tops, so whether or not you're fine with not having a house doesn't really factor into things. For perspective I bought my place long enough ago, and refinanced at an opportune enough time, that my out of pocket costs are _well _below this, but in the rental market right now that's about what my place would go for, and it's about a thousand square feet, two bedroom, no off street parking, and will be walking distance to the T in another two months when the Green Line extension finally opens, but for now if I want to take the T it's a 15-20 minute walk. 

In New York or San Fran, I'd imagine $3k will have you looking 1br and less than 600sq ft. I'm all for closely matching the space you pay for to what you actually need, but that's a pretty tight squeeze for two people. 

You might do better as you move further out the outskirts, but then commuting time ramps up pretty significantly.


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

Drew said:


> Of those three, Seattle, for a whole slew of reasons. No one in their right mind should live in NYC or San Francisco these days.
> 
> But, you also may need to rethink your budget. $150k/yr for a couple is barely middle class even here in Boston, and for $3k in Boston and the immediately bordering suburbs, that's going to get you a small 1-2 bedroom condo tops, so whether or not you're fine with not having a house doesn't really factor into things. For perspective I bought my place long enough ago, and refinanced at an opportune enough time, that my out of pocket costs are _well _below this, but in the rental market right now that's about what my place would go for, and it's about a thousand square feet, two bedroom, no off street parking, and will be walking distance to the T in another two months when the Green Line extension finally opens, but for now if I want to take the T it's a 15-20 minute walk.
> 
> ...



Would you be able to give some of the reasons you'd prefer Seattle? I myself if I had to choose right now would probably also go Seattle, but would be interested in your thoughts (my gf is another story, I'm not entirely convinced if subconsciously she isn't NYC or bust, which is funny, because she is EXTREMELY cheap, like drive around for 45 minutes in a panic attack because she can't find parking and refuses to pay $25 for a parking garage, even though she makes ~100k haha)


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## bostjan (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> Would you be able to give some of the reasons you'd prefer Seattle? I myself if I had to choose right now would probably also go Seattle, but would be interested in your thoughts (my gf is another story, I'm not entirely convinced if subconsciously she isn't NYC or bust, which is funny, because she is EXTREMELY cheap, like drive around for 45 minutes in a panic attack because she can't find parking and refuses to pay $25 for a parking garage, even though she makes ~100k haha)


I thought you were living/planning to live without a car?


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

bostjan said:


> I thought you were living/planning to live without a car?



I should clarify, you are correct. However, this story is from when her parents gave us a car so we didn't have to take public transportation last year when (in Chicago at least) public transportation was 99% homeless occupants, and we barely left our apartment anyways.

But overall, we would be ok with technically having a car for potential weekend stuff (like in Seattle and going to more nature areas) but that is not a requirement, we'd be fine not having a car at all.


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## Drew (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> Would you be able to give some of the reasons you'd prefer Seattle? I myself if I had to choose right now would probably also go Seattle, but would be interested in your thoughts (my gf is another story, I'm not entirely convinced if subconsciously she isn't NYC or bust, which is funny, because she is EXTREMELY cheap, like drive around for 45 minutes in a panic attack because she can't find parking and refuses to pay $25 for a parking garage, even though she makes ~100k haha)


Lesser of two evils. The rental market is merely awful, rather than straight-up insane. Beyond that, NYC is the center of the universe - ask anyone who lives there - which to me is a pretty good reason to avoid it, and San Fran is becoming a running joke for the way it's overun with 20- and 30-spmethings who made bank when their startup was bought by Google or a VC firm. Seattle is at least marginally still a real place.

Honestly, I'm a little shocked that in a "Best Places to Live in the US" thread, wondering where you might find the best wuality of life, the three finalists you came down to were Seattle, San Fran, and NYC, when these were your factors:


SpaceDock said:


> What I dislike is the lack of trees, never rains, and is very expensive. What I like is the abundance of sunny days, great views, very chill social atmosphere.



San Fran and NYC both are very densely settled - I found San Fran downright claustrophobic with the houses that are literally built touching each other, and the times I've been down in NYC I've tried to stay sane by connecting green space to green space when walking anywhere. Seattle is a little better, but rains all the time, which is another strike, and while we're at it thanks to climate change NYC is increasingly becoming a hurricane hot spot, where the subways flood every time a storm hits. All three are significantly more exensive than Colorado, by a whole different order of magnitude. San Francisco doesn't get as much rain as Seattle, but it's rarely above 70 and fog blocking out the sun is pretty common. NYC has the least chill social atmosphere of any city I've been in, San Fran was better before Silicon Valley took over but is going to hell as it's increasingly dominated by fast-living 30-somethings with venture capital money and while - on nice days - Seattle and San Fran have good views, there isn'yt much to see in New York as far as scenery goes, and it's an hour of urban sprawl in any direction if you want to get out of town.

Seriously, if you can work from anywhere, your best move here is to find somewhere pretty with a much lower cost of living than Colorado, where your annual salaries will go a LOT farther. About the worst move you can make, IMO, is to move from Colorado to one of the biggest cities in the country where your income won't match local standards. $150k a year and you could live like kings in Cincinatti Ohio. $150k a year is barely getting by in NYC.

For the love of god, don't do it.


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

Drew said:


> *Honestly, I'm a little shocked that in a "Best Places to Live in the US" thread, wondering where you might find the best wuality of life, the three finalists you came down to were Seattle, San Fran, and NYC, when these were your factors:*



you seem to have me confused with Spacedock at least partially? I live in Chicago, not Colorado. My only real factors are 1) having good public transit and/or good walkability (aka not having to have a car) and 2) good weather meaning I'm not melting in the summer and the highs in winter still are in the 40s or high 30s often. Everything else I'm open to. And for myself I don't mind the density of a place, if anything I would hate to be too spread out. And for me $$$ isn't everything, sure I understand SF and NYC may just be untenable really but I fully realize I can live like a king in nowheresville Iowa and I think there's a reason for that low cost of living and I want no part of it after living in small town pennsylvania.


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## Adieu (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> well we make a little over $150k combined per year, so we have a hard limit of 3k montly rent we'd be open to...definitely not going to have the pick of the litter but it's not terrible.
> 
> I can't imagine if I was single and wanting to live alone affording a place though



3k on rent alone? Bugger that


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## jaxadam (Oct 6, 2021)

Adieu said:


> 3k on rent alone? Bugger that



My old neighbors moved out to LA (Thousand Oaks or some shit like that) and their rent is $7k a month for half the house they lived in here and they hate it. He got transferred from the Jags to the Rams on a 2 year contract.


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## Drew (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> you seem to have me confused with Spacedock at least partially? I live in Chicago, not Colorado. My only real factors are 1) having good public transit and/or good walkability (aka not having to have a car) and 2) good weather meaning I'm not melting in the summer and the highs in winter still are in the 40s or high 30s often. Everything else I'm open to. And for myself I don't mind the density of a place, if anything I would hate to be too spread out. And for me $$$ isn't everything, sure I understand SF and NYC may just be untenable really but I fully realize I can live like a king in nowheresville Iowa and I think there's a reason for that low cost of living and I want no part of it after living in small town pennsylvania.


Oh, I absolutely have confused you two, haha. 

Still, this being a thread about the best places to live in the US, and you're talking about three places that I'm pretty sure haven't been mentioned once. 

But, if you don't mind tightening your belt and living in a shoebox, you may as well just go to NYC and at least have the experience of having lived there if even just for a year or two. Just, try to find a job locally so your salary will at least recognize the cost of living, even if you're relocating because you can telecommute with your current job (I may still be confusing you two here). 

But, like, New York City and San Francisco are two cities that people are actively trying to move _away_ from these days, even before the pandemic.


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## bostjan (Oct 6, 2021)

Adieu said:


> 3k on rent alone? Bugger that


Shoot.

When I first moved out of my parent's house in the Detroit area, I remember seeing a house for sale for $5k, and, two blocks away, a 1 bedroom apartment for lease for $5k/mo. How do you make sense of those two bits of information?

City living is expensive, for whatever reason, it's ridiculously expensive in many places. That's why I don't understand how anyone can survive off of $12/hr. For that matter, it's hard for me to understand how people can make twice that and be reasonably accommodated.


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## jaxadam (Oct 6, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Shoot.
> 
> When I first moved out of my parent's house in the Detroit area, I remember seeing a house for sale for $5k, and, two blocks away, a 1 bedroom apartment for lease for $5k/mo. How do you make sense of those two bits of information?
> 
> City living is expensive, for whatever reason, it's ridiculously expensive in many places. That's why I don't understand how anyone can survive off of $12/hr. For that matter, it's hard for me to understand how people can make twice that and be reasonably accommodated.


 
It can also be seasonality too. I did a project up in New Jersey about 10 years ago and during the off-season they were nice enough to rent me a 2 bed condo for $600/week. After May, in-season it went to $6k a week and I said fuck that and stayed in some shitty hotel!


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## jco5055 (Oct 6, 2021)

Drew said:


> Oh, I absolutely have confused you two, haha.
> 
> *Still, this being a thread about the best places to live in the US, and you're talking about three places that I'm pretty sure haven't been mentioned once. *
> 
> ...



Sure all you said makes sense, but I think maybe the issue is overall this thread/SS.org's view of "Best places to live" is different than mine, which is totally ok! But I think this thread's idea is more in line with what USnews City rankings and such rate as the most livable cities (which again makes total sense), but often when I view those I'll be like "need a car no thanks" or "sure low taxes but you live in the outer Dallas suburbs NO THANKS" so I may just need to watch this thread instead of actively asking for advice since I think I'm the odd man out haha.


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## bostjan (Oct 6, 2021)

Yeah, one time I had business travel in Boston, and the cheapest hotel within a one hour radius of my worksite was over $400/night. I decided to instead drive home, sleep for 5 hours, get up, and drive back. There had been a previous trip to the same place where I stayed for under $200/night (and thought that was pretty expensive, considering the hotel was kind of run down).

--------------------

Back OT, the best place to live, most likely, is the place where you have roots. I grew up in Detroit, which is arguably the shittiest city in the USA, but I've had to fight so many battles just because I'm constantly a stranger to everyone everywhere I go. I know that when you are in your twenties, it's like "I gotta get far away from this place," but then you get older and your parents get old and sometimes you can't help them because you aren't there, and then your friends get older and you lose touch, and then there will be things you need, that your new friends can't help with, ... so there's a value on all of that sort of stuff.

It's always easier to guess that the grass is greenest where you can't see it, and if you really sit down and think about what makes certain places great and what makes the place you live now bad, you get the same effect. I see it all the time out here. People move here from Boston/NYC/Hartford/etc. and immediately praise how pastoral it is and how the air smells so good, etc., but, after about 3 years, it's "Boy, I really miss going to Walmart," or "I'm so sick of there being nothing to do all winter," etc. I still really love it in VT, but I never really gave a shit about Walmart or Target or whatever. As long as I can hold a decent job and buy groceries and I have heat, electricity, and water, I'm pretty much all set on amenities. It's nice when there's at least some semblance of a music scene, but that's just a cherry on top. But the unseen stuff is more about how you have to get your car inspected, but, since everyone who grew up here knows somebody, they get their cars inspected and passed for $50/yr., whereas "flatlanders" are constantly replacing their O2 sensors and stuff, and, half the time, your stuff isn't even getting actually replaced (always ask to take home the broken part, and also get the job itemized on your receipt/work-order), or other shady stuff like that.

NYC is a huge city. There's tons of stuff to do. There's so much opportunity and so much noise and so much hustle and bustle. But during a pandemic, is that the place you want to live? Sure there's great public transit, but the infrastructure of the city is really old in parts. If you do have a car, even if you don't drive it except on weekends, you have to figure out a place to keep it, which could be very expensive in NYC. Also, your insurance will almost definitely go up, as NYC is a place where cars are damaged or stolen more often than many other places. There's a ton of this little stuff that can really add up, and it's difficult to quantify.

Best of luck!


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## Drew (Oct 6, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> Sure all you said makes sense, but I think maybe the issue is overall this thread/SS.org's view of "Best places to live" is different than mine, which is totally ok! But I think this thread's idea is more in line with what USnews City rankings and such rate as the most livable cities (which again makes total sense), but often when I view those I'll be like "need a car no thanks" or "sure low taxes but you live in the outer Dallas suburbs NO THANKS" so I may just need to watch this thread instead of actively asking for advice since I think I'm the odd man out haha.


Eh, I live in an extremely urban area too, and while I have a car, I almost never drive it. You still couldn't pay me to move to New York City, man. Believe me, recruiters have tried!


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## Adieu (Oct 6, 2021)

You couldn't pay me enough to live in NYC.

What an utterly hideous place.


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## Drew (Oct 6, 2021)

Adieu said:


> You couldn't pay me enough to live in NYC.
> 
> What an utterly hideous place.


Fun place to visit for two days, three at most.


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## Randy (Oct 6, 2021)

Not going to make any specific recommendations, the only thing I will say is that the goldilocks zone for "best places to live" is somewhere balanced between crime and affordability (for the kinda lifestyle you want to live). The first part explains itself, second is a balance of job opportunities with cost of living and availability of property in your price range (along with taxes, etc).

The rest of the stuff is bullshit. Being a "beautiful" place with "a great scene" is meaningless. You get over the landscape pretty quick, the "scene" changes and if you have kids or get old you won't partake anyway.

Reminds me of my relatives that live in the Caribbean and never go to the beach and don't own a pool. Other than the climate, they could do the "stuff" they do in a given day almost anywhere on this planet. Thats most people.


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## Steinmetzify (Oct 6, 2021)

Currently living in SLC UT, and it’s ok but not great. You can’t walk anywhere, it’s too spread out. Public transpo is timely but besieged by the homeless begging for change/money and it’s not exact enough for me anyway, hence the reason we own multiple vehicles. Between my myself and my wife, daughter and her BF we own 2 cars and 2 trucks, plus my bikes which I don’t ride anymore because of the influx of Californians who don’t see motorcycles. 

Also, home prices are thru the roof the last year or so due to that influx. My wife’s aunt is our realtor in the family, and she’s had multiple deals go thru in the last 18 months with people paying up to $200k over asking for a house that’d be $300k in Vegas but here runs about $750k-$800k for desirable areas. 

Traffic is a fuckin nightmare anymore as well. 

Currently looking at relocating to Vegas sometime in the next year or two; I’m sick of snow and people that move here and can’t drive in it, and I’m also sick of the monopoly the Mormon church has on liquor and tobacco. I can buy smokes and booze cheaper anywhere else in the country. 

We currently pay around $2200 for a 2bd/2bath apt with a garage and two carports, in a really nice area right next to the mountains and it’s just getting to be too much with all the new people. 

Sold our house a few years back for double what we paid 12 years ago, and that house now is on the market for almost $800k. 

Comparable pad near mountains/amenities in a guard gated community in Vegas would be around $450k.


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## MFB (Oct 6, 2021)

Drew said:


> Fun place to visit for two days, three at most.



Bingo.

I got to NY a couple times a year now for shows, since usually they'll get bigger venues for anniversary shows and whatnot; but having lived in three cities right outside Boston, and working in the city every day, NY still kicks you right back down to reality if you think your city is "busy." That shit is going 24/7, and I've had nights where I was out at 1/2AM going back to my hotel, and it's not much different from the day time, and I don't see how that's possible, but it's happening.

So I go out there, get my existential reality check, come back here and am way more content with our level of "city."


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## Drew (Oct 7, 2021)

Randy said:


> Reminds me of my relatives that live in the Caribbean and never go to the beach and don't own a pool. Other than the climate, they could do the "stuff" they do in a given day almost anywhere on this planet. Thats most people.


I think the "scenery" has to dovetail with your interests. The Caribbean would probably kick ass if you were into surfing or ocean kayaking or snorkeling or sailing. As someone who enjoys riding road bikes up mountains, I'd probably go stir crazy on most of the islands, though. Likewise, VT is stunning, and chock full of amazing road and gravel (and MTB) riding, but if you're a surfer it's going to get old real fast.


steinmetzify said:


> Currently living in SLC UT, and it’s ok but not great.


Where, if you don't mind my asking? My sister lived out there for a number of years, in Draper for a while, and then... Daylight, maybe? There was a lot of stuff I liked out there - great outdoors scene if you were a hiker, skiier, or cyclist - but culturally she never really fit in and I'd have maybe found a home in the counter-culture out there (harder for her, as a single woman) but would have definitely been an outsider for the most part.


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