# Patriotism & National Pride



## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 21, 2012)

I had an interesting exchange in a thread earlier (here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...johns-puts-price-obamacare-3.html#post3155008) about what defines a country, and the difference between love of country and blind nationalism. It's had me thinking about it off and on for the rest of the day since then, so I thought I'd start a thread where anyone and everyone can muse aloud about the topic.


Some potential questions to address:

What do you think of patriotism?

Do you think it has a place in an increasingly "small" world with ever-shrinking international boundaries as a result of mass transportation and the internet?

Can patriotism and blind nationalism be separated? If so, do think it's more common that they are or that they aren't?

Do you feel there are any duties inherant in considering yourself to be a patriot?

etc etc etc.


This topic always makes me think of a pair of quotes. This first is by Mark Twain:

"For in a republic, who is "the Country"? Is it the Government which is for the moment in the saddle? Why, the Government is merely a servant- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them. 

Who, then, is "the Country"? Is it the newspaper? is it the pulpit? Is it the school superintendent? Why, these are mere parts of the country, not the whole of it; they have not command, they have only their little share in the command. They are but one in a thousand; it is in the thousand that command is lodged; they must determine what is right and what is wrong; they must decide who is a patriot and who isn't.

Who are the thousand--that is to say, who are "the Country"? In a monarchy, the king and his family are the country; in a republic it is the common voice of the people. Each of you, for himself, by himself and on his own responsibility, must speak. And it is a solemn and weighty responsibility, and not lightly to be flung aside at the bullying of pulpit, press, government, or the empty catch-phrases of politicians. 

Each must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, and which course is patriotic and which isn't. _You cannot shirk this and be a man._ To decide it against your convictions is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. 

If you alone of all the nation shall decide on a way, and that way be the right way accordng to your convictions of the right, you have done your duty by yourself and by your country--hold up your head. You have nothing to be ashamed of."

- Mark Twain, "Papers of the Adam Family"



Captain America actually summed up that very quote in his own words during the Civil War story arc a few years ago:

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. 

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. 

When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree besides the river of truth, and tell the whole world-- 
*--No,you move."*




Lastly, there another Twain quote I'm fond of on the issue:

"My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death."

- _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court_


So um... have at it?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Aug 21, 2012)

I think its good to take pride in everything you do, so long as you are open to change and critisism, ie move towards a single payer healthcare system, switch to metric, etc


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> switch to metric


 

NEVER!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Aug 21, 2012)

To be fair most people here still use imperial, especially carpenters/plumbers/etc... Because we get most of our tools from the states


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm fucking useless here in a metric country, haha.

"How much does gas cost per litre back in the US?"
"I have no idea."

"How many kilos do you weigh?"
"I have no idea."


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## Stealthdjentstic (Aug 21, 2012)

We use lbs too :/


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## petereanima (Aug 21, 2012)

In my opinion, "national pride" is absurd. You can only be proud of something you accomplished. Beeing born here or there is not exactly _that_ of an achievement.

Dont get me wrong - nothing wrong with loving your country, but "blind love" is inappropriate here, sadly, most patriots _I_ know, love the coutnry blind...and are kind of dumb, so thats an unhealthy mixture.

I live in Austria, and like it here, I like the many facettes Austria is offering, I love (!) the countryside, especially the mountains and the respective regions....but honestly, I really dislike / almost hate ~98% of all austrian citizens. I live in a country full of idiots, that elected even bigger idiots, who are ruining the country for the last 30 years, and I have to suffer from the consequences.

So, summed up, I'd say, love your country if you do, but keep it down to a healthy and realistic amount, stay critic. Nationalism, imho, is already the step to far.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 21, 2012)

To flip that particular coin, do people who think it's absurd to be proud of something you had nothing to do with also think it's absurd to be ashamed of that same thing? I've seen a few people in the past mention that there's no point in being proud about being from a particular country, but nobody saying that there's no point in being ashamed of it.

Thoughts?


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## petereanima (Aug 21, 2012)

Very good question - I actually would like to think about that for a while before I answer.


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## Jakke (Aug 21, 2012)

I would say that although nationalism and patriotism shares the same sentiment, the difference is that nationalism is political, while patriotism is not
I am also usually vary of nationalists, as it quite of often leads to ethnocentricity, which is not good at all, especially as we live in a world with shrinking borders. Patriotism is a part of nationalism, as that is a love for ones country, a key pert in fact, being a nationalist would imply you being a patriot as well. But, being a patriot does not make one a nationalist, although thee is a fine line.

I personally use the rule of thumb than if anyone starts preaching the superiority of a country or people outside of sports, I put them in the nationalist category (not systems of measurement though, go metric americans!). There are of course exceptions, but not as few as you would think.
I think patriotism (and especially nationalism) will get harder with more shrinking borders, the nationalists will turn to a small put hard core (which is not very good either, as that can breed problems), but as long as nations compete against each other in sports, there will always be a place for patriotism.

Last, I would not consider me a patriot. I like Sweden, I like the history, and I like the people (generally), but I do not love Sweden. At least, I am an oscillating patriot, I can get patriotic at the olympics, but not much anywhere else.
Sweden is probably one of the least patriotic countries in the western world though, post-modernism has been a big hit, and the thought about patriots (who I acknowledge, but don't belong to) is:
Patriot-> Nationalist-> Racist.
Sad but true

*EDIT* actually, after looking it up, we rank just slightly, slightly above average in the patriotism score. Average is 3.12, we're 3.13 (based on one question, how proud are you of being _______ on a 1-4 scale?).


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## skeels (Aug 21, 2012)

Great thread!

Einstein said it best "Nationalism is the measles of mankind."
It is an infantile, childish disease.

And look where he came from-the land of National Socialism.
Yes, Na.. Zis...

But patriotism.. In the light of mark twain's quotes...
Embodies the true sense of anarchism..
We are each unto ourselves our own a sovereign nation..
In which the only effective rule is to self rule..

I am a patriot.

But not only for the country that I live in.

Hell, "Edelweiss" always chokes me up..

And I also feel shame for the evil things that nations do..

Socrates said, " I am a citizen not of greece, not of athens but of the world."


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## The Uncreator (Aug 21, 2012)

Just to repeat myself

I think love of your country, and pride in your country are two separate ideas vaguely divided. One is a genuine emotion based on your perception of the people, environment, social and principal dynamics; And the other is a divide, an acceptance leading to irrational misconceptions of the quality of other countries based on the idea that your country, is superior.

So, echoing the above statements. I do think Nationalism is childish, its not an accomplishment in any fathomable form. Patriotism is the same coin idealistically, the notion of Nationalism leads to the thought that you are a patriot if you do such and such thing, or have this and that belief. 

Not that I think they can't be separated - I just don't think its worth trying to do. Nationalism, patriotism, religious zealots, all of these are mindsets which put the person in a position that can lead them to have serious misconceptions about not only the quality of a countries people different from them, but the quality of there own country, people, and environment.

Instead, people can love there country. I can love something and still accept its flaws (like Tim said in the thread before), I think that's the essential difference. Love is the state in which you are not blinded, and still have the rational individual inside of you. This allows you to love other people and cultures. It's less a divide than nationalism and patriotism I think, and more a uniting force.


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## Jakke (Aug 21, 2012)

The Uncreator said:


> Instead, people can love there country. I can love something and still accept its flaws (like Tim said in the thread before), I think that's the essential difference. Love is the state in which you are not blinded, and still have the rational individual inside of you. This allows you to love other people and cultures. It's less a divide than nationalism and patriotism I think, and more a uniting force.



I think you've hit on something there... 
A patriot accepts the flaws of a country, as they love the country as it is. The nationalist sees no flaws with their country, everything "wrong" in their opinion is of outside elements. That is because their sense of patriotism is not grounded in reality, but in an idea, a romantic ideal.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 21, 2012)

Is it a generally held belief that to be a patriot, one must consider their country to be superior to all others, or simply to love it? I must admit, it's not something I've given much thought until today. I consider myself a patriotic American who loves his country, but I don't for a minute try to pretend that it's the "best country," as if such a thing could even objectively exist. Am I the exception to the rule, or is the rule in need of some adjusting (a switch to metric, perhaps)?


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## Jakke (Aug 21, 2012)

Well, a switch to metric wouldn't hurt

I believe the difference is in objective and subjective worth. You love the US because you recognize that the culture and people resonates with your taste, so to say. Correct? Well, it's the subjective best country to you, it's best with regards to your taste, and this takes the form of love, patriotism.
If someone is claiming objective worth of a nation, then that IMO would be nationalism. It's also a testable claim, which is hilarious to stick in the face of nationalists (however you define best)

It is really the same when it comes to a partner, you love your partner because he/she is in your opinion the most attractive/well suited person. But there is often no objective beuty in your partner, it is all in your preference.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 21, 2012)




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## Fiction (Aug 21, 2012)

The place you were raised, was essentially your mould, everything about that place defines who you are (almost), if you're proud of yourself, then I see no problem with being proud of your country.

I see no harm in nationalism in theory, we will always have bigoted snobs riding around on their overgrown ponies. The problem begins when violence between sects begins and discrimination to other ethnicity become involved. There are people _everywhere_ with differing religions, political seatings, ethnicity, philosphies and so forth, and to believe a country is a static non-evolving economy is just pure idiocy. 

How can you define something that is always evolving? You can't.



Grand Muff Tim said:


> I've seen a few people in the past mention that there's no point in being proud about being from a particular country, but nobody saying that there's no point in being ashamed of it.



I've never understood that comment, what stops you from being proud or ashamed of your country? If I can be proud of a friend landing a new job, I can be proud of my country winning the olympics lol, even more so the country, If your country has something popularized, then its inhabitants are also seen under that view, so I have a right to be proud of my country or ashamed to have a broad view that envelopes me even if i'm not directly related to the incident.


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## TRENCHLORD (Aug 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> To be fair most people here still use imperial, especially carpenters/plumbers/etc... Because we get most of our tools from the states


 
A great socialist country that size and yall can't even make your own rulers?


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## The Uncreator (Aug 21, 2012)

Fiction said:


> I've never understood that comment, what stops you from being proud or ashamed of your country? If I can be proud of a friend landing a new job, I can be proud of my country winning the olympics lol, even more so the country, If your country has something popularized, then its inhabitants are also seen under that view, so I have a right to be proud of my country or ashamed to have a broad view that envelopes me even if i'm not directly related to the incident.



Your nationaliality is not your choice, it wasn't something you achieved, or had any say in. Pride should be reserved for something you accomplished, not an accident that is pure chance. Your proud of your friend because he accomplished something of his own doing, your proud of the athletes because they accomplished something. Countries only "win" the olympics because individuals are chosen to represent it, the actual accomplishment, talent, and skill lies with the athlete though, not the country. If you find yourself admiring your country more than the athletes who actually trained for there whole lives, your wrong.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Aug 21, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0MripVxss


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 21, 2012)

I see nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from on the surface. What it's become in practice is sickening to me, however. A lot of folks seem to put themselves on these ethnocentric little pedestals and it really blurs the line between patriotism and--as you put it--blind nationalism.


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## Semichastny (Aug 21, 2012)

To me nationalism is the most likely progression of unchecked Patriotism. "Love" for ones country can and will turn hostile without critical thinking, rationality, and logic. There is no guarantee that just because someone loves something that the love they have will be healthy or growthful.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 21, 2012)

Semichastny said:


> There is no guarantee that just because someone loves something that the love they have will be healthy or growthful.



Rep'd


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## skeels (Aug 21, 2012)

^Sorry....

"Growthful"?


Sorry...great post- key idea "WITHOUT critical thinking rationality and logic. "

So sadly but so truly the problem with so many ...



But...

"Growthful"?


Edit: had to change my subtitle for this thread!


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 21, 2012)

Fruitful?


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## Semichastny (Aug 21, 2012)

skeels said:


> ^Sorry....
> 
> "Growthful"?



Not a real word, just a term used by a friend of mine I liked. Growthful means that something will help a person/place/thing grow or develop in a healthy way.

Edit: Not "Fruitful". Fruitful implies the result of doing something, Growthful is the growth and development resulting of an action/feeling/etc.


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## axxessdenied (Aug 21, 2012)

What I don't understand is how someone can consider themselves patriotic... but, then when it comes to paying a little extra in taxes for the good of the country as a whole, they scoff at it? 
If you aren't willing to work together with the other citizens of your country towards a common goal, how is that being patriotic or loving or your own country? 
Patriots stand up for what they believe is right, it is also a patriots job to ensure that your government does not take advantage of it's citizenry. 
If you don't love your neighbour, than I don't see how you can love your country since it's made up of the people you dislike. That's a big problem here in North America. Complacency. We have such cushy lives compared to the majority of the world that we forget that this was all built on *HARD WORK*. And, to keep going forward and improve things there needs to be a lot more *hard work* put in! 
We will be lucky to retire on a decent pension by the time we grow old because things have gotten so out of hand with spending these days. Yet, people aren't willing to make small sacrifices to make the long-term a better place.


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## Mprinsje (Aug 21, 2012)

I feel that, in the netherlands, it's almost weird to say you are a patriot, or proud of being dutch.

this is mainly due to some right-wing, anti-immigrant political party's in the netherlands that have very nationalistic views like the freedom party led by Geert Wilders, who some might have heard of and the short lived "Trots op nederland (proud of the Netherlands) party, who basically made it impossible for me to say i'm proud of being dutch, as i will always be reminded of the utter failure that party was. and thanks to those party's i always feel (unwillingly) like someone who says that he's proud to be dutch is somewhat of a immigrant hating douchebag, which is a thought based on completely nothing of course.

all that said however, i am pretty proud to be dutch, wellfare state, moderation, big personal liberties, semi-legal pot (not that i use any, but still a right to be maintained, even if the big political party's think otherwise) and all that


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## groph (Aug 21, 2012)

I've always had a bit of an issue with patriotism and nationalism, patriotism not quite as much although I have a better idea as to what it is than I do nationalism.

The idea of feeling that you're on a team with a bunch of other people because they're living within institutionally defined and generally militarily enforced borders seems to make no sense to me. Who asked me what team I want to be on? Why are we picking teams? As far as a country of people "being this way" and a country of people "being that way" IE "The French" as cheese eating surrender monkeys and "The English" being stoic and proud, obviously that's not actually true - people vary as much as I hate to invoke the "everybody is different" line. Maybe thinking this way is a product of my own alienation, I don't feel as if I properly belong to any one group in particular so I have a bit of a skewed sense of cultural identity which is certainly "real," although nationalism is more political in the sense that it's used to decide things like policy so maybe nationalism is more like a state-co-opted cultural identity. At the very least it seems to be used to further the interests of an elite, whoever they may be. In the USSR I'm sure the state didn't REALLY care about the well-being of "the Soviet people" but there was a massive propaganda engine churning out tons and tons of evidence that SOMEBODY wanted the "Soviet people" to feel like they're all on the same page and that they're all united, regardless of how diverse they may have been before the USSR formed.

Patriotism I don't really have a huge huge problem with, go ahead and "love your country" and die "for your country" if you want but I find it's made a huge deal out of, to put it somewhat flippantly. Suppose a big war breaks out and the country you were born in is kind of the instigator or the "bad guy" in the conflict (Yeah yeah, Iraq war, Vietnam, I'm actually speaking totally hypothetically here). You disagree with the war. Suddenly now you're being bullied by ideologues who deride you as unpatriotic and you're public enemy number one. Obviously exactly that happened post 9/11 in the USA with the whole "you're either with us or against us" mentality and an unapologetic pro-militarist hypermasculinized mindset. Basically if you're not pro-war you're some kind of feminine liberal pussy, nothing new there I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about.

Now say there's a draft. You're now conscripted into the military and next thing you know you're in a foreign land getting shot at. "Okay, well I disagree with this war absolutely, but I have myself and buddies here so I need to get myself and them out of here alive. I'll do what I have to." I imagine the politics goes out the window when you're getting shot at. Then you get hit, and it's bad. You're sent home in a wooden box and Nancy Grace sheds her crocodile tears and calls you a true hero. 

I interpret that as an institutional co-option of your very being, you're turned into a martyr by the powers that be to galvanize (in your case) other people to rally to the cause, a cause you never supported. Being "a hero" in this sense to me is the single biggest insult a government (or media outlets whose positions align with those of the government) could ever throw at you. Your death will cause more death, but it's all for the best because you were fighting the good fight. Oh, what's that? You're against the war? What are you, some kind of faggot? The Black Panther leader character in Forrest Gump summed it up well, saying something to the effect of "why should the black brother be sent to war to fight and die for a country that hates him?" If something like this happened to me, if I could rise from the dead I would spit on my own grave.

So the big problem there for the state is garnering popular support for things like war, and as far as the US is concerned, that's been tough to do since Vietnam. WW2 was very clear cut, the popular narrative was military intervention to stop a crazed genocidal dictator (Nazi Germany) and to stop the advance of an extremely aggressive, militaristic emperor (Japan)

Are all soldiers dupes? Well I'm sure they join up for a ton of different reasons, some pragmatic (they couldn't get in anywhere else, they're trying to pay for their education, etc.) some idealistic (they want to "make a difference") some fucked up (they want to kill somebody) or they might be patriots who are doing what they really do think is right. My criticisms are not ever leveled at them.

So yeah, I've got some problems with the two concepts, at the core of it I don't like somebody else telling me who I am or how I ought to be because of the people around me or because of the borders set by men much more powerful than I.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 21, 2012)

Groph for pres...


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## synrgy (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm sure I'm paraphrasing one of any number of famous dudes from the early days of America, but I basically believe that patriotism is defined by the desire to improve one's country, which would have to be fueled by one's love of their country. I think many people put all their patriotic stock into the belief that one's country is _already perfect_, and this - to me - is folly.

In that sense, I currently find myself at a quandary of self definition. I don't think I can still call myself a patriot (by my own definition of the word outlined above) because I'm becoming increasingly jaded and am finding it ever-more difficult to believe in the inherent good of my country's people. Funnily enough, much of my jadedness can be attributed to what I perceive as a bastardization of what patriotism is supposed to be. At some point in time - increasingly post-9/11 - we shifted into this place where if one doesn't dress head to toe in stars-and-stripes clothing (ironically made in China ) and put 'support the troops' magnets on their vehicles, they're obviously terrorists or evil socialist commies. (Yes, I also understand the inherent error in implying someone could simultaneously be a socialist and a communist, but we're talking about 'MURICA, here...)

I guess what I mean is, I do believe in patriotism, but I also think that much of America tragically confuses their _consumerism_ for patriotism. No small surprise, though, given that we seem to filter *everything* through the lense of capitalism, these days.

Nationalism is a whole other thing, and I have run out of free time to expand on this post just now.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> I think its good to take pride in everything you do, so long as you are open to change and critisism, ie move towards a single payer healthcare system, switch to metric, etc


This.

It's when patriotism becomes 'mindless worship', then it's a problem.



synrgy said:


> I'm sure I'm paraphrasing one of any number of famous dudes from the early days of America, but I basically believe that patriotism is defined by the desire to improve one's country, which would have to be fueled by one's love of their country. I think many people put all their patriotic stock into the belief that one's country is _already perfect_, and this - to me - is folly.






synrgy said:


> In that sense, I currently find myself at a quandary of self definition. I don't think I can still call myself a patriot (by my own definition of the word outlined above) because I'm becoming increasingly jaded and am finding it ever-more difficult to believe in the inherent good of my country's people. *Funnily enough, much of my jadedness can be attributed to what I perceive as a bastardization of what patriotism is supposed to be. At some point in time - increasingly post-9/11 - we shifted into this place where if one doesn't dress head to toe in stars-and-stripes clothing (ironically made in China ) and put 'support the troops' magnets on their vehicles, they're obviously terrorists or evil socialist commies.* (Yes, I also understand the inherent error in implying someone could simultaneously be a socialist and a communist, but we're talking about 'MURICA, here...)






synrgy said:


> I guess what I mean is, *I do believe in patriotism, but I also think that much of America tragically confuses their consumerism for patriotism.* No small surprise, though, given that we seem to filter *everything* through the lense of capitalism, these days.
> 
> Nationalism is a whole other thing, and I have run out of free time to expand on this post just now.


This man said it better than I ever could.


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## Fiction (Aug 21, 2012)

The Uncreator said:


> Your nationaliality is not your choice, it wasn't something you achieved, or had any say in. Pride should be reserved for something you accomplished, not an accident that is pure chance. Your proud of your friend because he accomplished something of his own doing, your proud of the athletes because they accomplished something. Countries only "win" the olympics because individuals are chosen to represent it, the actual accomplishment, talent, and skill lies with the athlete though, not the country. If you find yourself admiring your country more than the athletes who actually trained for there whole lives, your wrong.



But to me being proud of my country also includes those athletes, I'm not saying man in proud of Australian soil for winning gold medals, I'm saying in proud to live in a place filled with wonderful athletes who were inspired to represent the rest of us.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 21, 2012)

A couple of quick points before I leave for the bus:

Being born a certain nationality isn't your choice, but _keeping_ that nationality for the rest of your life _is_. 

In the cases of hypothetical "what ifs" like being drafted into a war you consider to be unjust, I feel it's worth pointing out that, at least in my opinion, patriotism need not be any more permanent than love of any other thing actually is. Some marriages last happily until one or both of the spouses die, some fizzle and end rather quickly. Man is fickle, that's just the way of things sometimes. EDIT: There could always be that proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back," that tips the scales in favor of the bad rather than the good, in other words.


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## groph (Aug 21, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> A couple of quick points before I leave for the bus:
> 
> *Being born a certain nationality isn't your choice, but keeping that nationality for the rest of your life is*.
> 
> In the cases of hypothetical "what ifs" like being drafted into a war you consider to be unjust, I feel it's worth pointing out that, at least in my opinion, patriotism need not be any more permanent than love of any other thing actually is. Some marriages last happily until one or both of the spouses die, some fizzle and end rather quickly. Man is fickle, that's just the way of things sometimes. EDIT: There could always be that proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back," that tips the scales in favor of the bad rather than the good, in other words.



And then there's North Korea


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## Blind Theory (Aug 21, 2012)

I think it is more than okay to be a patriotic person. As a citizen of the United States I can say with confidence that I am proud to be an American. 

That being said, I think the problems with that arise when people talk about change. You have two sides and no compromise. You have a bunch of vocal people shouting praises for 'Merica and arguing that we don't need to change any way, shape or form because we are 'Merica and fuck you! Then we have the group who tries to embrace change to the point where they want to be France or something dumb like that

What we need is to be able to grow as a nation and make some good calls, so to speak. Regardless of whether or not we can get to a better place as a nation I will still remain a proud citizen. There is still no better place to live, in my opinion. 'MERICA!! FUCK YEAH!


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## Fiction (Aug 21, 2012)

Blind Theory said:


> There is still no better place to live, in my opinion. 'MERICA!! FUCK YEAH!


 
Have you lived anywhere else?


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## Jakke (Aug 21, 2012)

Blind Theory said:


> Then we have the group who tries to embrace change to the point where they want to be France or something dumb like that



Just a question, how different do you think France is from the USA?


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## The Reverend (Aug 21, 2012)

What is there to be proud of in America? Aside from things like actors, musicians, and other creative _people_, I can think of no institutions that are worthy of being proud of. Our schools? Our healthcare? Our military?


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## EdgeC (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't think the current discussion stretches far enough. 

For example, governments encourage nationalism and patriotism as it is a powerful intrinsic reward and motivator for people to do things. Especially when it comes to things like army recruitment, volunteering, voting etc which are usually in the government&#8217;s best interest. But it is the way this is used and at times abused by those in charge that causes me to treat such things with trepidation.

Second, nobody has yet touched on the multi-cultural societies which we increasingly find ourselves living in. We need to be careful that nationalism and patriotism do not stray into racism. I'm a white Australian but take offence to &#8216;bogans&#8217; (our version of rednecks) who tattoo the southern-cross on themselves and stick it on their cars with the 'Aussie Pride' slogan attached. This to me is racism under the guise of national pride. This has the effect of causing those who have come here to live from other countries to feel like second class citizens. They may love the country as much, if not more due to their ability to juxtapose with their country of origin, yet they treated inferior which is shameful behaviour. Australia still has this notion of &#8216;keep out foreigners and stop them stealing our jobs&#8217; and is evident in our treatment of asylum seekers. Again, this is shameful behaviour under the banner of nationalism.

The third point to consider is historical. The fact that Aboriginals were in Australia before it was colonised by the British as were the Native Americans before the same happened in North America. So whose country is it to be proud of? I'm certainly not proud of the treatment Aboriginals received during colonisation or a lot of what has happened since. Just because the British named the place and stuck a flag on it doesn&#8217;t make it any more worthy of adoration. And should I be patriotic to &#8216;Mother England&#8217; considering we are still a commonwealth country? Are Aboriginals patriotic? If so, to who? Our Aboriginal boxer was not allowed to fly the Aboriginal flag at the Olympics, although he did anyway. Should he have flown the Australian flag? Is not doing so treasonous?

I think nationalism is a throwback to imperialism. Days where borders, resources, religions etc were argued and fought over. Nationalism is somewhat obstructionist to people of the world coming together as one. It is also very contextual and is largely dependent on individual perspective.

We are all human beings. And as human being we like to belong to groups, communities, etc. This desire means there will always be a place for nationalism and patriotism but we need to be very careful in the way we use it and how we allow it to be used on us. I would prefer it confined to sporting events such as the Olympics.

I feel fortunate that I get to live in such a beautiful country and the opportunities it affords me but I don&#8217;t feel like I&#8217;m entitled to it only because I was born here. Every single person on this planet in entitled to it.


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## skeels (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm hearing a lot of agreement on terms.

But I hear a lot of disagreement on definitions.

Rev- proud of people. Right? Nothing is more patriotic in a land that was founded up on the words "We, the people.."

Groph- Peace is patriotic. Right? I would sooner go to prison than take up arms and fight in a war. And if everybody thought this way there would be no more wars.

I didn't choose to be born in america.
I didn't choose to be born on earth.

But hey it's a nice planet as long as we don't fuck it up too much..

We can't have this attitude like "Don't blame me- I voted for kodoss!"

Yeah so we basically stole our country from the people who lived here before us..

And we still celebrate thanksgiving which was originally to celebrate the the natives helping the people who came over on the mayflower.

Half of them died the first winter.

Are we the other half?


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## Chiba666 (Aug 22, 2012)

Some great points of view here, and with everyone playing nice it's a great thing. We should get the UN to see how it works and prve tpo them that decisions can be made without people throing their toys out fo the pram if they don't get their own way.

Being a Brit and more specificly English, saying you are proud of being English tends to get you thrown into the EDL (English Defence League) and football hooligan crowd. Which is really a sad state of affairs but seems to be the countrys way of wanting to pidgeon hole people.

Now it seems ok to be proud to be British, well as long as the Olympic thing is still being thrown around. How long that will last I don't know.

I have pride in the land where I was born and not to mention the men and women of the military adn emergancy services for doing their best, but in many ways thats as far as it goes, am I proud of the government, nope. The way we have treated other countries in the past, nope. The way the country is going down the pan, definalty not but ive voted for the last 16 years so Ive got to take a certain amount of responsability.

I like most have a large dose of sporting pride in England, well apart from the over paid footballers.

I guess I'm proud of the land not the people.


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## The Uncreator (Aug 22, 2012)

Chiba666 said:


> Some great points of view here, and with everyone playing nice it's a great thing.



WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU SAY TO ME!!??


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## renzoip (Aug 22, 2012)

Another thing: It is not uncommon for governments to use "patriotism" and "nationalism" during troubled times as a tool to distract people from the real causes of the problem (usually the ruling class + government itself) and direct their frustrations to either an outside "threat" or an "minority" within the country. I'm always suspicious when I see too much patriotic propaganda coming either from the government or the corporate media, movies, video games, etc. 

That's not to say I am not happy to live where I live (US, not FL), but I think that "patriotism", just like religion, can be easily manipulated to disguise agendas, depending on the time and place. I would have like to see people discussing in this thread back in 2002. I'm sure the definition of patriotism and it's implications would have been pretty different.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 22, 2012)

Patriotism... The other religion.


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## Murmel (Aug 22, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Sweden is probably one of the least patriotic countries in the western world



I think a lot of this has to do with that it's actually very difficult to say that you love your country here without being labeled a racist cunt. And if you do, you always have to explain yourself as to why you love it.  
If I were to praise this country, the people getting upset would be the immigrants, and all the Swedes would probably get embarrassed for me being such a patriot. I think that's total bull, because we don't hate on them for being uber-fond of their countries (at least most of us don't). Of course there are also reasonable immigrants, the ones who aren't just make much more noise.

Swedish people aren't proud of themselves. We have so many flaws in our culture, but I like it here anyways


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## MikeH (Aug 22, 2012)

Nationalism implies superiority to other countries, which is fucking absurd. I like America for it's landscapes and some of the freedoms we have the privilege of enduring, but I'm not going to proclaim that my people are better than the English because we use the dollar, and feet instead of meters. Nationalism and extreme patriotism are much like racism to me. It's being proud of something that you originally had no control over. A frequently-used comment that I say whenever someone wants to spout ignorant racist comments is "if being a certain race is your proudest achievement, that really speaks volumes to what you've done with your life".


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## Jakke (Aug 22, 2012)

Murmel said:


> I think a lot of this has to do with that it's actually very difficult to say that you love your country here without being labeled a racist cunt. And if you do, you always have to explain yourself as to why you love it.
> If I were to praise this country, the people getting upset would be the immigrants, and all the Swedes would probably get embarrassed for me being such a patriot. I think that's total bull, because we don't hate on them for being uber-fond of their countries (at least most of us don't). Of course there are also reasonable immigrants, the ones who aren't just make much more noise.
> 
> Swedish people aren't proud of themselves. We have so many flaws in our culture, but I like it here anyways



I blame post-modernism


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## Varcolac (Aug 22, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> We use lbs too :/



I have no idea of my weight in kilos or pounds. We're stuck on stones and ounces over here in Britannia-shire.

I have never felt nationalistic or patriotic. I've occasionally felt grateful to have been born in the country I was. I'm not sure who I'm grateful to though. Perhaps the men and women who've fought to make the society in which I reside into something that at least makes a few attempts at equality and opportunity. Perhaps my parents. Perhaps sheer random luck. 

Those who think "my country, right or wrong," and those who'd trumpet their country's supposed benefits and rightness over those of others, get under my skin to a terrible extent. I'm first and foremost a humanist, before any ethnic or national identifiers. If a country increases the net quality of life (which is a complex metric including freedoms, opportunities, safety nets, GDP, wealth share, internet connection speed and number of accessible TV channels per capita) for those inside its borders, then I'd be happy to live there. So far, the country in which I reside has done so, though of course with caveats and exceptions across the board. Could be worse. Could be better, but I'm happy to live in a work in progress.


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## tacotiklah (Aug 22, 2012)

I love the US. I really do. However, much of it's current policies and a great deal of it's leaders are so facepalmingly atrocious, that I can't help but feel like wanting to find temporary asylum in say Canada or Scotland. While I freely admit that both of the main political parties here are flawed and defective, I gotta say that the right is the absolute craziest of them. People like me would be locked into a goddamn cage and forced to starve to death if they got their way. How can I honestly feel any sort of pride in my country when my fellow countrymen and women wanna see me dead just because I'm who I am? 

Without invoking a particularly infamous name when it comes to nationalism, I can say that history has shown that an overzealous national pride is rather unhealthy and dangerous. Sure, be proud of your country and if you love it, by all means show it. However, having the "us vs. them" mindset about it is a recipe for disaster.


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## The Reverend (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm still curious as to what goes into making someone proud of their country? Specifically people from my generation and the one before me. We didn't fight any wars that anyone can really get behind, with clear divisions and a real us versus them mentality. There's been no great "team effort" in America for me to be proud of. My fellow Americans and I have done shit in terms of accomplishing anything. There's no great leaps forward in equal rights (yet), there's no ideological growth, there's nothing to make me feel anything more than blase about my nationality. 

I don't personally feel that the American people are any better than the people anywhere else, either, speaking on a purely cultural basis as well as objective markers. We're not more talented, smarter, or better looking lol than anyone, so how can I be proud of my fellow man? 

Perhaps a lack of patriotism and nationalism among the younger generation is due to the internet. The only forum I visit is SSO, where I routinely talk to people from almost every continent, and a whole bunch of different countries. We're not really that different, either. We've taken the nuances of human nature, elevated the trivialities of existence, turned these arbitrary differences into something meaningful, but the internet is destroying all that. People are people. Countries are countries. England has dumbass conservatives and hippy liberals, just like Canada, just like America, just like Australia, just like Japan, just like Israel. Aside from topical things like cuisine, climates, and landscapes, I can't think of another industrialized country that is really any better or worse than my own. So if I'm acknowledging my own mediocrity, or to put it better, my own unremarkableness, what place does patriotism have, truly? 

To answer my own question, I think the only place patriotism has in a digital, globally connected world is instilling those lame-ass 'citizenship' values they tried to make me learn in Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts or whatever the fuck it was. I had a lame bandana. The point is, if patriotism makes you want to make your country a better place, I suppose that's an ideal I can get behind. But being my liberal-ass self, I'm wondering, "Why stop at my backyard?"

I think it's clear that I don't have any fucking answers.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 22, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> I'm still curious as to what goes into making someone proud of their country? Specifically people from my generation and the one before me. We didn't fight any wars that anyone can really get behind, with clear divisions and a real us versus them mentality. There's been no great "team effort" in America for me to be proud of. My fellow Americans and I have done shit in terms of accomplishing anything. There's no great leaps forward in equal rights (yet), there's no ideological growth, there's nothing to make me feel anything more than blase about my nationality.


 
It can certainly be seen as a tick in the negative column that none of those things are happening right now, but I see no reason to limit one's appreciation of a country to what it is _currently_ doing. A country's history is as much a part of the "country" as its present to many people, including myself.



The Reverend said:


> Aside from *topical things like cuisine, climates, and landscapes*, I can't think of another industrialized country that is really any better or worse than my own.


 
Things like those are fine examples of things a person can be proud of, or take as reasons to love their country. It'd be folly (IMO) to use them to support claims that ones country is inherantly better than all others, but one does not need to think everything in the world is inferior to something in order to love it.



The Reverend said:


> what place does patriotism have, truly?


 
That really seems to depend on how one defines partiotism, I suppose. If like me someone defines it as love of country, then that's all the place it needs. It needs not affect anything positively or negatively any more than loving macaroni and cheese or telecasters. I tihnk how it affects a person's actions is entirely subjective, and it's as soon as one starts mandating what is and isn't required of being patriotic that it steps uncomfortably into that blind nationalism I've mentioned.


Unrelated, but I'd like to echo the sentiment that this thread has been going along nicely so far. I hope it can continue with this level of civility. It's refreshing.


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## The Reverend (Aug 24, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> It can certainly be seen as a tick in the negative column that none of those things are happening right now, but I see no reason to limit one's appreciation of a country to what it is _currently_ doing. A country's history is as much a part of the "country" as its present to many people, including myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why didn't you name yourself after Darth Sidious? I can't take you seriously, ever. 

Anyway, in retrospect I can see where landscapes and cuisines and shit can make someone proud of their country. I could really see myself giving someone a tour of America and being like, "Yeah, those are the Badlands, what the fuck is up, Belgium?" But that's only like a shallow sort of pride, for me, at least. 

As far as our past, what little we do have in comparison to England or pretty much anywhere else isn't really rousing in a patriotic sense. Everything past the early 1800s is kind of fucked up.  I do think you have a point, I'm just too left-leaning to get behind it at the moment, I suspect.


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## groph (Aug 25, 2012)

Jakke said:


> I blame post-modernism



One must take into account the inherent biases and value-laden subjectivities of human agents posting on Internet threads, itself a cyberscape, a discursive world of its own in which social constructs, already nebulous can take on new meanings. 'Submit Reply' becomes a semiotic cue to shape the world around onesself as existing meanings are shaped by perception, and resubmitted in their new forms, to be introduced to new agents.

also cats


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## Jakke (Aug 25, 2012)

groph said:


> One must take into account the inherent biases and value-laden subjectivities of human agents posting on Internet threads, itself a cyberscape, a discursive world of its own in which social constructs, already nebulous can take on new meanings. 'Submit Reply' becomes a semiotic cue to shape the world around onesself as existing meanings are shaped by perception, and resubmitted in their new forms, to be introduced to new agents.
> 
> also cats



Well, to adequately answer that question, one must look into our own definition of self. What do we really mean by ego? That is, with us? Personally, as an anti-solipsist, my definition of self lies within others. Ergo, I am everything everyone else is, and vice versa.


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## estabon37 (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a personal assumption about nationalism which I think separates it from patriotism: I think nationalists are by definition either expansionist or exclusionary.

I don't remember which particular political philosopher said this, but in spite of his conservatism he considers globalisation 'economic treason' because your money and resources 'should' stay inside your country. This, of course, does nothing to help the world's poor or economies and little to help the poor within a nation if that money isn't redirected towards them, so I consider such an exclusionary argument to be unethically nationalist.

In terms of expansion, we have plenty of wars to reference, but I want to use a semi-hypothetical situation. The USA purchased Alaska from the Russians back in the 70s. Whether this was good or bad for the people of Alaska is a matter of personal preference for those citizens effected; what I'm interested in is the potential argument where one could say: "Buying Alaska improved our country as well as Alaska. If we were to buy countries in which people are oppressed, they would be subject to our laws and economy: free and better off. Let's buy some goddamn countries!"

I consider this nationalist as opposed to patriotic. I don't think it's about perceived superiority, I think it's the perception that the political and cultural realities of your country work and they are _right_. So how could spreading a 'great' system and culture be a bad thing?

TL;DR. I think a patriot likes what they've got, and a nationalist either tries to spread what they've got, or rules out all other options.


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## Solodini (Aug 27, 2012)

I've not read through the whole thread but I thought you guys might enjoy this New Statesman - The NS Profile: Tim Soutphommasane


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## groph (Aug 28, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Well, to adequately answer that question, one must look into our own definition of self. What do we really mean by ego? That is, with us? Personally, as an anti-solipsist, my definition of self lies within others. Ergo, I am everything everyone else is, and vice versa.



Oh bullshit.

The canned response to anything po-mo.


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## Jakke (Aug 29, 2012)

Nu-uh! I call bullshit first!


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## estabon37 (Aug 29, 2012)

Solodini said:


> I've not read through the whole thread but I thought you guys might enjoy this New Statesman - The NS Profile: Tim Soutphommasane



I'm only a few months older than Soutphommasane, and a second generation Australian from both sides of my family, so I can sympathise with him when he states the problem of national identity through patriotic moments in history. Much of Australia's history is defined by military action, and my family does not share Australia's military history: when the ANZACs were fighting in SE Asia in WWII, my families were being bombed in Malta on one side and fighting as part of the Dutch resistance on the other. Having said that, both sides of the family were very keen on adopting everything Australian when they arrived, and my Dutch grandparents were surprisingly patriotic for people who could only kind of pronounce the names of towns in the area we lived in.

So, thanks for reminding me why patriotism isn't all bad, Mr Soutphommasane. On the other hand, you're killing the image of Aussies being stupid, loud, drunk bogans, which is not very patriotic.


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## CharliePark (Sep 18, 2012)

There's a very important difference between being proud of your country and recognising that you were lucky enough to be born into your country. I don't want to say that I'm proud of being an Australian because I feel that it's just rubbing it in the faces of people that happened to be born in poverty stricken countries. 

'I'm proud of living in a richer country, and having a longer lifespan than you.'

P.S. Sorry for being a bit late.


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## CannibalKiller (Sep 19, 2012)

If people love their country that's fine, but every time someone says "God Bless America" I feel slightly nauseous.


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## TRENCHLORD (Sep 19, 2012)

CannibalKiller said:


> If people love their country that's fine, but every time someone says "God Bless America" I feel slightly nauseous.


 
sorry C.K., but i just had to .


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## CannibalKiller (Sep 19, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> sorry C.K., but i just had to .




Damn your black heart! Be gone foul demon spawn!


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## Origin (Sep 19, 2012)

National birthdays, little fun things like that etc make sense to me as long as people don't take it sickeningly far, history's awesome and pride is great as long as it's not predatory.  Long as people don't stretch into nationalism and other uglies I'm fine with it. It's nice to give a shit about other people and places!


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## MstrH (Sep 20, 2012)

"God Bless America" goddammit!!


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## McKay (Sep 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> To be fair most people here still use imperial, especially carpenters/plumbers/etc... Because we get most of our tools from the states


 
Anglosphere countries won't be losing imperial any time soon, even in the UK I probably come across inches/feet/pounds more than metric.

As for national pride - I say this a lot but the nation isn't the same thing as the state.


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## Guitarwizard (Sep 29, 2012)

Patriotism is the result of unsufficient self-esteem. To question if we can draw a line between patriotism and nationalism is like trying to smoke without ever getting cancer. It's just a matter of the amount of stupidity to go from "we're cool" to "we're better" to "we're the best" to "all the others are shit".

I will never understand how you could be proud of something that just simply happend to you. Don't get me wrong, I am super happy to live in peace and to enjoy a social and stable environment. And YES, I'm even HAPPY about my countries VALUES, TRADITIONS and HERITAGE and I don't want any immigrant to not give a damn about it and talk bad about it!!!
But these aren't things I provided myself with, I just happend to be lucky. To be proud of that would be like being proud of winning a million in the lottery (what would be reffrred to as being a selfish rich asshole).

I'm proud of a lot of things. My first guitar that I bought from the money I made working thoughout my summer-break. My first car, or the first time I put my penis into a female. Admittedly, I'm even proud of beating my younger brother in Battlefield 3 and getiing up before 12:00 on a sunday.


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## Jakke (Sep 29, 2012)

This is J.K Rowlings notion of patriotism, and I am in agreement:
JK Rowling Versus Mitt Romney


TYT commented on it too, but that's basically preaching to the choir


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 29, 2012)

Guitarwizard said:


> Patriotism is the result of unsufficient self-esteem.
> ....
> 
> I will never understand how you could be proud of something that just simply happend to you.


 
When one of my sisters accomplishes something big in her life (a new job she'd been trying for, getting a degree, marriage, children), I'm both proud of her and proud to be her brother. Being her brother, though, is something that "simply happened to" me, since I obviously had no say in the matter. Is that pride a sign that I have insufficient self-esteem? Would you say that it is or isn't justified? Do you consider it a different sort of pride? I'm not being rhetorical, either, I'm genuinely curious. Pride is an interesting thing.


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## Guitarwizard (Sep 29, 2012)

Well then you're proud of someone, or proud of something someone achieved, but being proud of being something that never required any effort, as in being a member of a certain nation, is a different thing I think.

We're just arguing about the choice of words used to express something now I think.  If a father is proud of his son, or if you are in general proud of someone else because of the challenges that person was faced with and/or the success that person has had, then you are rather feeling a sort of happiness because of the given circumstances, rather than actually being proud... It seems that most indo-germanic languages use the word "pride" for these two (in my opinion very different) meanings, but I doubt that most non-western do so as well. I assume that, for example, "being proud of your son" in some cultures and languages would translate to "your son bringing honour upon you, the father", but i.e. meaning the same sort if thing/emotion.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 29, 2012)

Guitarwizard said:


> We're just arguing about the choice of words used to express something *now* I think.


 
"Now" nothing, haha. Semantics have played a pretty big role in this discussion from the get-go, and I imagine it's hard to discuss the topic (or topics, perhaps) at hand without that happening. We don't even need to cross cultural or linguistic barriers to realize that "pride" can mean different things to different people, and what its various meanings can be to the people here was a large part of the creation of this thread.


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## Guitarwizard (Sep 29, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> "Now" nothing, haha. Semantics have played a pretty big role in this discussion from the get-go, and I imagine it's hard to discuss the topic (or topics, perhaps) at hand without that happening. We don't even need to cross cultural or linguistic barriers to realize that "pride" can mean different things to different people, and what its various meanings can be to the people here was a large part of the creation of this thread.



Agreed.


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## bluediamond (Sep 29, 2012)

When I think of my country, I think of the people. Even more so I think about my family and other people's family.
I've been to countries which are much better place to live, but I cannot imagine myself swearing allegiance to any other flag. I think patriotism is good as long it encourage people to do something to better the community.


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## bob123 (Oct 3, 2012)

Watch "valkrie" with tom cruise to understand the difference.


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