# Which cnc machine should I get?



## MikeNeal (Oct 9, 2017)

Hey guys. Going to be making the jump to cnc in the next few months. Basically the jobs ill be doing with cnc the entire fretboard. The outline shape of the body, the pickup, neck, and control cavities, the drilling, trussrod slot, and neck outline. I will still do the carving by hand - since that's my favorite part. 

So basically I'm torn between the 1000mm x-carve and the shapeoko 3 xl. 

The x carve has some benefits like a larger cutting area, and it's about 500 dollars cheaper. 

The shapeoko comes partially assembled and has thicker rails, but has a smaller working area. The xl is the top of my budget range. So the xxl is out of the question.

Any opinions?


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## ElysianGuitars (Oct 9, 2017)

Shapeoko will be more rigid, in my opinion. I have a Big Ox, which is similar to the X-Carve, and it works well for smaller things, but I'd like a more robust machine. 33" x 17" is probably enough to start on. Typical guitar bodies are only 12-13" wide, and it's big enough you can probably do a neck through blank in two or three positions.


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## MikeNeal (Oct 9, 2017)

ElysianGuitars said:


> Shapeoko will be more rigid, in my opinion. I have a Big Ox, which is similar to the X-Carve, and it works well for smaller things, but I'd like a more robust machine. 33" x 17" is probably enough to start on. Typical guitar bodies are only 12-13" wide, and it's big enough you can probably do a neck through blank in two or three positions.



Hmm. The bigger cutting size of the x-carve would also help with some non guitar woodworking that we do. 

The guy at highline guitars uses an x carve and seems to have good luck with it. 

I really like the the beefyness of the shapeoko though


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 9, 2017)

I have the Shapeoko XL and it kicks ass. Thing is big and beefy. I've yet to bog it down and I run 100+ in/min in hardwood. Shallow cuts but still.

Easy to put together too.

In my mind, if you're gonna spend this much money on a tool, get the better one. Its gotta last you forever.

(doesn't mean the shapeoko is better - I don't know anything about the x-carve. But it sounds like you guys think the shapeoko is more robust)


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 9, 2017)

Also Fusion 360 has a built-in export plugin for it. FYI if you go with the shapeoko, always export with mm as your unit vs inches. Otherwise it will sometimes run into gcode errors and stop. Works fine in mm.


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## MikeNeal (Oct 9, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> Also Fusion 360 has a built-in export plugin for it. FYI if you go with the shapeoko, always export with mm as your unit vs inches. Otherwise it will sometimes run into gcode errors and stop. Works fine in mm.



good to know. 

do you notice any flex in the z axis? i saw a video where he demonstrated that the z axis could be flexed, whereas the x carve is solid.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 9, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> good to know.
> 
> do you notice any flex in the z axis? i saw a video where he demonstrated that the z axis could be flexed, whereas the x carve is solid.


I have not noticed any flex, but I also haven't checked.


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## MikeNeal (Oct 9, 2017)

i think other projects i want to do will keep me to the bigger machines.

the shapeoko 3 xxl will be around 2200 CAD
the 1000mm x-carve will be aroind 1600 CAD

is the shapeoko worth the extra 600 dollars?


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## Winspear (Oct 10, 2017)

A few guys I know claim the xcarve is a toy and say to stay well away. Most of the people recommending it are not doing critical work like luthiery.
Haven't used it myself but I have upgraded from a 1.5k CNC to a 10k CNC and can say the same as them - do not cheap out. You want something as rigid as possible else you're stuck going either slow or inaccurate. 
Not saying it isn't possible to work with cheaper machines, but it's a lot more work and you will regret it eventually, especially when the difference is as small as 600 usd. It seems to only take a matter of months to become very aware of limitations and start planning for upgrades, so I'd cut your losses


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## MikeNeal (Oct 10, 2017)

Winspear said:


> A few guys I know claim the xcarve is a toy and say to stay well away. Most of the people recommending it are not doing critical work like luthiery.
> Haven't used it myself but I have upgraded from a 1.5k CNC to a 10k CNC and can say the same as them - do not cheap out. You want something as rigid as possible else you're stuck going either slow or inaccurate.
> Not saying it isn't possible to work with cheaper machines, but it's a lot more work and you will regret it eventually, especially when the difference is as small as 600 usd. It seems to only take a matter of months to become very aware of limitations and start planning for upgrades, so I'd cut your losses



I guess that settles it then


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 10, 2017)

At least it isn't a Guitar. For 600 extra dollars you're getting a double neck instead of a AAAA maple top.


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## KR250 (Oct 10, 2017)

Looking into the same machine myself now, thanks for the info on this thread. Where is the best place to purchase from? Looking at XXL on RobotShop is $1900 USD.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 10, 2017)

I bought my xl straight from carbide 3d. Went well.


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## Durero (Oct 11, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> Hey guys. Going to be making the jump to cnc in the next few months. Basically the jobs ill be doing with cnc the entire fretboard. The outline shape of the body, the pickup, neck, and control cavities, the drilling, trussrod slot, and neck outline. I will still do the carving by hand - since that's my favorite part.
> 
> So basically I'm torn between the 1000mm x-carve and the shapeoko 3 xl.
> 
> ...


I'm not assuming this applies to you, but in case it helps you or anyone else considering a CNC purchase: if you haven't already mastered drawing in 3D CAD, then I'd strongly recommend working that out and having your cut-ready models done _before _you buy your CNC machine.

It is invaluable and well worth the price to test cut some of your models on someone else's machine first if at all possible. This can really help gain the experience needed to make good judgements about what the various CNC features are worth to you and what your budget should be.

I also second Tom Winspear's comment that a budget closer to the 10k range might get you much closer to the accuracy, reliability, and speed you might be expecting from the CNC process. Certainly the cheaper machines can achieve acceptable results, but the amount of babysitting and quality control checking the machine might require could be frustrating if you're expecting perfect repetitions of each part.

Just hoping to help other potential CNC geeks to have a less painful experience than I've had with it.


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## MikeNeal (Oct 11, 2017)

Durero said:


> I'm not assuming this applies to you, but in case it helps you or anyone else considering a CNC purchase: if you haven't already mastered drawing in 3D CAD, then I'd strongly recommend working that out and having your cut-ready models done _before _you buy your CNC machine.
> 
> It is invaluable and well worth the price to test cut some of your models on someone else's machine first if at all possible. This can really help gain the experience needed to make good judgements about what the various CNC features are worth to you and what your budget should be.
> 
> ...



no issues with the 3d modeling and CAM.

I'm almost looking forward to the assembly and troubleshooting that these machines entail. I'm kind of a nerd like that.

unfortunately the 10k machines are out of my pricerange. - nor will they ever probably be in my price range. I'd rather build a guitar by hand then pay that. Mostly looking at these hobby machines because its a relatively cheap way to explore CNC.


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## Durero (Oct 11, 2017)

Right on. In that case I'm sure you'll have a ton of fun with it!


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## dankarghh (Oct 12, 2017)

I started with an x-carve, used it to make an open builds c-beam sphinx and am now designing and building a third. Open builds have a new kit out called 'workbee'. It is very similar to the c-beam machine I made, and to be honest was perfectly happy with. WAY better than the x-carve. It runs on lead screws instead of maintenance heavy belts. I'd be getting that if i could start again. My new machine is basically a ballscrew version of that. Happy to help out if you have any other questions! (stay away from belts).


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## MikeNeal (Oct 12, 2017)

dankarghh said:


> I started with an x-carve, used it to make an open builds c-beam sphinx and am now designing and building a third. Open builds have a new kit out called 'workbee'. It is very similar to the c-beam machine I made, and to be honest was perfectly happy with. WAY better than the x-carve. It runs on lead screws instead of maintenance heavy belts. I'd be getting that if i could start again. My new machine is basically a ballscrew version of that. Happy to help out if you have any other questions! (stay away from belts).



The workbee kit looks awesome. Can't find anywhere that I can buy it though? Or do you have to buy it piece by piece?


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## MrYakob (Oct 12, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> The workbee kit looks awesome. Can't find anywhere that I can buy it though? Or do you have to buy it piece by piece?



http://ooznest.co.uk/3D-Printer-CNC-Kits-Bundles/WorkBee-CNC-Machine/WorkBee-CNC-Full-Kit

Took me a while to find this link too, google came up with a bunch of forum posts first


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## MikeNeal (Oct 12, 2017)

MrYakob said:


> http://ooznest.co.uk/3D-Printer-CNC-Kits-Bundles/WorkBee-CNC-Machine/WorkBee-CNC-Full-Kit
> 
> Took me a while to find this link too, google came up with a bunch of forum posts first



Damn. That comes in under budget. But it's a preorder and I'm impatient


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## dankarghh (Oct 12, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> Damn. That comes in under budget. But it's a preorder and I'm impatient


You coud build a sphinx, i just thought this might be more user friendly. If you're comfortable sourcing parts from the bill of materials from ebay/aliexpress i got mine together real cheap. If you want to buy a kit, it really would be worth waiting for IMO! I'm sure it won't be too far off!


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## MikeNeal (Oct 12, 2017)

I honestly think the shapeoko 3 XL is what i'll probably get, it has lots of good reviews, has the least assembly required and will probably be the easiest to learn on.


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## dankarghh (Oct 12, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> I honestly think the shapeoko 3 XL is what i'll probably get, it has lots of good reviews, has the least assembly required and will probably be the easiest to learn on.


Be patient Mike! I've been the guy happily using a machine with belts, my x-carve was running great BUT. Screws are a massive upgrade and the difference in price is negligible. Way less maintenance.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Oct 13, 2017)

dankarghh said:


> Be patient Mike! I've been the guy happily using a machine with belts, my x-carve was running great BUT. Screws are a massive upgrade and the difference in price is negligible. Way less maintenance.



What kind of maintenance? Just replacing belts?


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## pettymusic (Oct 23, 2017)

https://shapertools.com/ 

I have one of these on preorder. Let me know if anyone decides on jumping in. I can give a link where we both get like $50 or $100 off , can’t remember?? The current batch ships this January. 

I really like the idea of not having a big ol cnc bed hogging all my precious shop space.


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## pondman (Oct 24, 2017)

Unless your building for profit rather than a hobby I don't see the point of investing in something expensive that will totally take the enjoyment and skill out of building anything.
I'm not having a go at you, it just baffles me


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## Winspear (Oct 24, 2017)

pondman said:


> Unless your building for profit rather than a hobby I don't see the point of investing in something expensive that will totally take the enjoyment and skill out of building anything.
> I'm not having a go at you, it just baffles me


You should have a read of this  http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ron-thorns-take-on-cnc-and-timeframes-etc-interesting-read.41039/

I already own a CNC for my business but will also be using it for guitar building (as a hobby for the foreseeable). I would definitely have bought one just for hobby building too. It does take a lot of learning and many skills, and plenty of time. There are many creative touches that are just are just highly impractical or almost impossible to do without a CNC too. I find it incredibly fun, along with the 3d design process. As the post above explains, all a CNC really does is automate the repetitive bulk material removal process. Personally I wouldn't consider those things fun at all - I'd much rather focus on a great design process, learn to program for a good cut result, and then enjoy the fun part of bringing it through sanding, finishing, assembly etc. 
It all depends what you personally enjoy. 
I can see that hand carving things would be fun, but for me it's a timesink and highly impractical. As mentioned CNC will allow me a lot of creative options that would be ridiculous by hand


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## dankarghh (Oct 24, 2017)

Winspear said:


> You should have a read of this  http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ron-thorns-take-on-cnc-and-timeframes-etc-interesting-read.41039/
> 
> I already own a CNC for my business but will also be using it for guitar building (as a hobby for the foreseeable). I would definitely have bought one just for hobby building too. It does take a lot of learning and many skills, and plenty of time. There are many creative touches that are just are just highly impractical or almost impossible to do without a CNC too. I find it incredibly fun, along with the 3d design process. As the post above explains, all a CNC really does is automate the repetitive bulk material removal process. Personally I wouldn't consider those things fun at all - I'd much rather focus on a great design process, learn to program for a good cut result, and then enjoy the fun part of bringing it through sanding, finishing, assembly etc.
> It all depends what you personally enjoy.
> I can see that hand carving things would be fun, but for me it's a timesink and highly impractical. As mentioned CNC will allow me a lot of creative options that would be ridiculous by hand



Haha sanding and finishing are my two least favourite things  Right next to creating tool paths haha. Still, I use my CNC for templates and fingerboards and really love it. I'm pretty sure Pondman can whip up an amazing guitar quicker than anyone could make one on a CNC


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## ElysianGuitars (Oct 24, 2017)

pondman said:


> Unless your building for profit rather than a hobby I don't see the point of investing in something expensive that will totally take the enjoyment and skill out of building anything.
> I'm not having a go at you, it just baffles me


I don't think that's the case at all. CNC's don't just puke out ready made products, there's still a lot of work to go into it. It also takes a certain amount of skill and craftsmanship so to speak to come out with geometry that actually works, it's quite challenging, and a joy in its own right. It gives you more time to do the things that do take skill and craftsmanship, like taking a rough cut neck and taking it to final shape, sanding the guitar to perfection, the stuff that makes it to the final guitar. I hand built for years, far too long really, and at this point wouldn't go back. My CNC guitars are just plain better, because I can spend more time on the things that actually make them better. I still have to do plenty of hand work, because I still have to make my blanks, I still have to do glue ups, etc.


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## pettymusic (Oct 24, 2017)

Yeah, I agree. To e


pondman said:


> Unless your building for profit rather than a hobby I don't see the point of investing in something expensive that will totally take the enjoyment and skill out of building anything.
> I'm not having a go at you, it just baffles me



I'm hoping it will add to the fun of building. I really don't see the difference in using this tool over that tool. They're just tools and still require a skilled person to operate them. You can't just flip the power switch on a CNC and expect to get a guitar out of it no more than you can a band saw to do so. I watched a guy over at another thread go through the build process using only hand tools. It looked absolutely painful and agonizing to me but, obviously, it was how he enjoyed doing it. 

Another perspective: I can have all the best tools in the world , cnc, automated fret slotting machines, drill presses, you name it and Pondman will still build a better guitar than I and faster too! I think it all comes down to the skills of the craftsman and how he wants to get the job done.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Nov 10, 2017)

Shapeoko is having a sale right now apparently. If I'm reading this right, routers are free with the xl and XXL. Too bad I already ordered mine.


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## Costo (Nov 19, 2017)

Platform CNC

30"x48"x5.5"

I like mine so far. first CNC.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Nov 19, 2017)

Costo said:


> View attachment 57308
> View attachment 57315
> View attachment 57311
> View attachment 57312
> ...


Well that's just beautiful. Screw drive, big active area, and a real spindle? Nice. 

How much does that cost, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Costo (Nov 19, 2017)

The cnc without water cooled spindle close to $4,000 

I had never really even seen a CNC before getting this. I always built with templates. I learned the CAD and the CAM side of things. Now I can draw and cut.


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## Costo (Nov 19, 2017)




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## Costo (Nov 19, 2017)

CNC is just a tool. Must learn CAD and CAM to generate your own files to work with. 

It took me a year


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## Costo (Nov 19, 2017)

I used to use a Porter Cable router with a Super P.I.D. I was disappointed so after a year I bought a 2.2kw Spindle from UGRA.

I post these because I learned from whatever I could find from what others shared. Good luck

Cool Thanks
Costantino


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## Ernesto (Nov 23, 2017)

I finally got a shop situation that seems stable but my neck's too worn out to do work like I used to so I decided that I have to build a cnc mill/router/plasma table to finish my projects. I'm about $1500 in for a 48"x 30" x 16" with 4 hi-torque nema 23's, 16mm lead screws, 4a drivers, and a raspberry pi/grbl shield controller. I looked at Smoothieboard too, which looks awesome, but couldn't quite afford it at order time. Once I get the plasma cutter and build a water cooled 3kw spindle from rc boat parts, I'll be $2500 into the machine.

I designed it so I can lower the table from table height to -40" so I can put big stuff in it. When I switch to plasma, I'm going clamp a water/slat tray to the bed.

It will use a $10 airbrush setup for mist cooling when I cut metals with the router.

I tried to post up the main cad file and bom but the site won't let me. I still need to draw the z-axis plate/rollers, the plasma tray/slats, the leadscrew mounts, and the vacuum/workholder hybrid table for the bed but the drawing I have is a good start. If anyone wants the plans, pm me an email address. 

As soon as the holiday crap is over, I'm picking up steel!

This build is what inspired me to go for it!:


My design is way different though. Much stiffer, can slide a 4ft sheet through it, wheels are in double shear, good leadscrews that are hidden, can work on the ends of a 40" tall part. I may automate the table height in the future too.


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## Ernesto (Jan 17, 2018)

I finally got my controller box done! So far, I'm really impressed with the linux/open source stuff!


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