# Any Martial Arts practicioners?



## Daemoniac

I've been looking into getting back into martial arts again, and figured id see if there are many other people on here that do 

I tried doing Judo when i was a little younger, but i never coped too well with all the rolls etc.. and moved to a 'traditional' style Karate dojo (Go Kan Ryu) with a really great Sensei until i moved to the Gold Coast. Tried another dojo up here, but it was terrible and the class sizes were too big, and teaching style just did not agree with me, so i left.

Took up Ninjutsu with Wayne Roy as the Sensei in Brisbane for ages, which, honestly, was one of the _best_ experiences of my life. Its called 'ninjutsu', and while it does incorporate a large degree of 'ninjutsu' (Taijutsu) training, it is impressively modernised to deal with modern situations etc.. with short, brutal efficiancy.

The whole concept agreed with me, and i really wish it wasn't so difficult to get up there for the lessons 

This is what i was doing: Ninjutsu Australia - Welcome To Ninjutsu....

Any other martial artists?


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## Tiger

Okinawan karate for (Shotokan) 14 years now, pretty much daily! Its a way of life.


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## Daemoniac

^ Nice. Unfortunately the most i could do mine was twice weekly for 2 hour sessions  What's Shotokan actually like? I've heard of it before, and remember it sounding interesting.


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## jymellis

i boxed for a number of years. and i was a skatefag in a redneck midwest town in the 80s and 90s.


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## ShadyDavey

Taekwon-do and a couple of different Kung-fu styles up to the time I was 18 or so - Judo before that. At 18 I picked up the guitar and its been downhill since ;p


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## Daemoniac

It's interesting stuff Martial Arts, and fighting in general. Just a whole different world.


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## auxioluck

Thaiboxing here. 

I did Tae-Kwon-Do for about a year, lived with a 4th level black belt in TKD...he taught me a little Judo and Jeet Kune Do as well. But Thaiboxing is where my heart stays.


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## Daemoniac

Very nice. My cousin in Melbourne did TKD for 5 years, got his black belt, and has now moved to Capoeira :holyshitflip:

So, he can kick people off their horses, and dance...

I really want to go back to the Ninjutsu classes  I _loved_ the concept of it, and the way it was taught. Great stuff.


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## progmetaldan

I've been thinking about getting into something, mainly for fitness, but also for being able to deal with that unexpected situation...

However I'm 19, and never done any before, is this considered too old to start out? Also I've got slightly impaired movement of my right shoulder...

There's a place near where I work called Street Defense Tactics ww.sdtactics.com.au and they mainly work off Krav Maga, as well as a combination of stuff which looks rather interesting, and is geared towards real life situations rather than competition, anyone had any experience with this kind of thing?


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## Daemoniac

My Ninjutsu class was geared towards actual situations and actual defense more so than fitness, and generally with the kind of blunt, efficient styles it shouldn't matter too much if your shoulder is a bit out. Just let them know whats up. My experience with that kind of Martial Art is that complete flexibility isnt needed, as most kicks that hit over a certain height are redundant, the time i did the class i never had to kick over belly height  and there wasn't too much flexibility needed in your shoulder.

Also, 19 isnt too late at all


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## Jachop

When I was a kid I took Ju-jiutsu. In the end, I found it a bit.. I dunno, soft maybe? But then again, I never really left the kids' class. 

More recently I've tried Wushu for half a year. It was pretty awesome! We started out with Changquan. I find it quite an cool art form, although drunken-style naturally is the most awesome of schools.  (anyone know the chinese name for that style of wushu btw?). 

I don't know why the hell I quit. I'm stiff as a rake now.


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## ShadyDavey

19 is fine, and a lot of the British Police syllabus is based on Krav - its also popular in HMF for exactly the reasons you want - simple, efficient and adaptable...its also quite "immediate" in that you can use it straight off the bat.

TKD for example - great with some practice but being predominantly kicking techniques (yes, there are a plethora of other ranges employed but its best known for its flowerly kicking) its of doubtful use in the street unless you're _very _practicsed and that takes time - or you get an instructor who also manages to teach Self-defence and some of the "non sport" applications. 

Wing Chun is absolutely hardcore when you've got some experience under your belt but its next to pants until then - the techniques require a lot of effort to polish to the point where people feel comfortable fighting with them. 

Best style for fitness and immediacy has to be boxing imo - everything works time and again without any real complications and its...efficient. 

Whatever you do, be sure to learn a bit of grappling if you can - most fights start out from 18" or so and rapidly devolve into grappling range where a large, beered-up thug has the distinct advantage.


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## Daemoniac

Same happened to me... i stopped dancing, swimming, tennis, and beating people up and all of a sudden my body's seized up and am no longer at all flexible 



ShadyDavey said:


> Best style for fitness and immediacy has to be boxing imo - everything works time and again without any real complications and its...efficient.



It's probably a personal thing, as most boxers are _giant_, but i never feel like it could be effective, especially seeing as how a whole half of your body (so far as im aware) is ignored... To be efficient you have to be taught a pefect combination of grapples, kicks, and punches, and weapons are a bonus. What we were taught was to escape first and foremost, and then to fight if there were absolutely no other options.

It always gets me how little some otehr Martial Arts are actually about 'self defence'...


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## AK DRAGON

19 is not too late to start. I started at 30. I should reach black belt in Jinen Ryu Karate by June.


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## ShadyDavey

The thing about boxing is that its hard to beat for taking people out of the fight quickly. Most boxers I know are fitter, faster and stronger than their opponents and those techniques are practicsed time and again to say nothing of the fact that they train to take a punch or two and still deliver some punishment. 

You just don't need the extra tools when a competant boxer has the speed, power, and the experience in that range - and the beautiful thing is that with so few techniques the ones that are coming your way come from any angle with absolute conviction - the fitness aspect is of course self explanatory. 

Let me give you the perspective from being "rigid" with the styles I have any experience in (I might throw in some thoughts from my old boss who was an Aikido and Wing Chun instructor).

Taekwondo - traditional blocks are total fail against boxing because they're designed to defend against traditional TKD attacks. You can adapt them but you'd better make sure you get it right because he's an expert in punching range and you're at a disadvantage in 90&#37; of confrontations. If you have any ability you can kick his legs to bits but given a fixed (close) range you're in trouble. 

Wing Chun. Tricky. Again, you can adapt techniques but my boss never had any luck with "straight" techniques against boxing because of the angles you can exploit. If you can defend effectively then the "straight blast" punches works quite well but its far from certain and you will need to have trained to defend against it.

Judo/Aikido. Game over if you get hold of them - neither is the ideal style to defend against any striking art. A lot of Aikido works but needs to be stripped down and practiced obsessively plus you have to go in with the intent to hurt people. Restraints and locks are of no use in many modern confrontations with drunks etc - and it might just be the UK but if you grapple someone and hold them on the floor then you'd better keep an eye out for his friends "Judasing" you in the back of the head. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's any one "best" art and I would definately agree that some competancy with all ranges/weapons is to be desired (don't pull any sort of weapon in the UK - the courts are very, _very _eager to prosecute these days) but I would rather fight anyone than a boxer or Thai Boxer.


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## Stealthdjentstic

I used to do Muy Thai and Brazilian Ju Jitsu at a local MMA gym for about 4-5 months 

The stuff you learned there was so much more useful than the crap i learned at a karate place when i was little


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## Daemoniac

ShadyDavey said:


> The thing about boxing is that its hard to beat for taking people out of the fight quickly.



True. The other thing is that they're so fit anyway that any hit they throw is going to be effective, _especially_ against the people that dont do a martial art (most of them...)



ShadyDavey said:


> Most boxers I know are fitter, faster and stronger than their opponents and those techniques are practicsed time and again to say nothing of the fact that they train to take a punch or two and still deliver some punishment.



Again, true. At my class however, what we were taught was largely basic motor skills put into brutally effective strikes. We focused less on 'technique' and more on repetition and adapting them to ourselves, our limitations, and/or preferences. My point is that im not one for "uber technique"...



ShadyDavey said:


> You just don't need the extra tools when a competant boxer has the speed, power, and the experience in that range - and the beautiful thing is that with so few techniques the ones that are coming your way come from any angle with absolute conviction - the fitness aspect is of course self explanatory.



The fitness part, yeah. As for the rest though, anyone who is trained for attacks ranged beyond a boxers will have the upper hand (even if only slightly). Take Tae Kwon Do for example, what happens when a flurry of kicks flies their way, or below the belt? What happens when the Ninjutsu guy picks up a stool and smashes him with it? (its one of ways we were taught: Survive. Do anything you can to, if you cant escape). The concept of boxing always gets me as it seems slightly flawedas a form of self defence, but i do acknowledge its efficiency against most people.



ShadyDavey said:


> Taekwondo - traditional blocks are total fail against boxing because they're designed to defend against traditional TKD attacks. You can adapt them but you'd better make sure you get it right because he's an expert in punching range and you're at a disadvantage in 90% of confrontations. If you have any ability you can kick his legs to bits but given a fixed (close) range you're in trouble.



Yup, blocks are where most martial arts (traditional ones at least) fall apart completely. Other than that though, should an experienced boxer and an experienced Tae Kwon Do practicioner meet anywhere, theyd be on reasonable even ground. The short and brutal nature of boxing is one thing, but the close range at which a Tae Kwon Do guy can still launch a kick to the throat/face/head is pretty incredible. 

That being said though, its all about technique, and as such unless you're a black belt then you're screwed.



ShadyDavey said:


> Wing Chun. Tricky. Again, you can adapt techniques but my boss never had any luck with "straight" techniques against boxing because of the angles you can exploit. If you can defend effectively then the "straight blast" punches works quite well but its far from certain and you will need to have trained to defend against it.



I have little experience with Wing Chun, but i imagine that its still a very traditionally taught art.



ShadyDavey said:


> Judo/Aikido. Game over if you get hold of them - neither is the ideal style to defend against any striking art. A lot of Aikido works but needs to be stripped down and practiced obsessively plus you have to go in with the intent to hurt people. Restraints and locks are of no use in many modern confrontations with drunks etc - and it might just be the UK but if you grapple someone and hold them on the floor then you'd better keep an eye out for his friends "Judasing" you in the back of the head.



This one i totally agree with. Its too slow, its not focused even slightly on evasion, and grapples unless PERFECTLY executed and tained, are worthless.



ShadyDavey said:


> Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's any one "best" art and I would definately agree that some competancy with all ranges/weapons is to be desired (don't pull any sort of weapon in the UK - the courts are very, _very _eager to prosecute these days) but I would rather fight anyone than a boxer or Thai Boxer.



I wouldn't pull a weapon. The thing about training with weapons, the ones we did at least, was that it teaches you some idea of how to defend yourself from similar weapons (even bare handed). I mean, the way someone comes at you with a bat or a plank of wood will be vaguely similar to the way someone comes at you with a sword or a short staff, the knife is pretty much the same  and so on...

I just don't think enough of these places put enough emphasis on real life situations and problems, and put far too much emphasis on ancient techniques that they somehow expect to just 'work' today...


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## Marv Attaxx

Jachop said:


> More recently I've tried Wushu for half a year. It was pretty awesome! We started out with Changquan. I find it quite an cool art form, although drunken-style naturally is the most awesome of schools.  (anyone know the chinese name for that style of wushu btw?).
> 
> I don't know why the hell I quit. I'm stiff as a rake now.


I did Wu-Shu for about 7 years and I was taught by a real chinese champion 
But then she stopped doing courses 
I've been practising Judo for about 6 years. And I did some Wing-Tsun, Karate and Wrestling, too.
I loved it but I had to stop because of school...
I may start again soon, though


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## ElDuderino

I've been doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for a couple months. I'm digging it so far.


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## progmetaldan

Cheers for the advice fellas, I might look into this Krav Maga thing methinks...


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## Humanoid

Demoniac said:


> Took up Ninjutsu with Wayne Roy as the Sensei in Brisbane for ages, which, honestly, was one of the _best_ experiences of my life. Its called 'ninjutsu', and while it does incorporate a large degree of 'ninjutsu' (Taijutsu) training, it is impressively modernised to deal with modern situations etc.. with short, brutal efficiancy.
> 
> The whole concept agreed with me, and i really wish it wasn't so difficult to get up there for the lessons
> 
> This is what i was doing: Ninjutsu Australia - Welcome To Ninjutsu....



First I was like 'wtf' when I went to that page. Then I noticed Wayne does his own thing.. I practice Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which was years ago called also Ninjutsu. However, this art is the one under Grandmaster Hatsumi where Wayne has separated.

Don't know the actual differences of the teachings between Wayne and Hatsumi, but this is indeed an interesting art  Previously I had a blue belt in Tae-Kwon-Do but I could say I have learned much more with this one.


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## Daemoniac

Humanoid said:


> First I was like 'wtf' when I went to that page. Then I noticed Wayne does his own thing.. I practice Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which was years ago called also Ninjutsu. However, this art is the one under Grandmaster Hatsumi where Wayne has separated.
> 
> Don't know the actual differences of the teachings between Wayne and Hatsumi, but this is indeed an interesting art  Previously I had a blue belt in Tae-Kwon-Do but I could say I have learned much more with this one.



Holy shit, you are taught by Hatsumi Sensei?? Wayne told me a few stories about his teaching, and they were amazing to say the absolute least...

The way Wayne taught was (i believe) very similar to the concept of "Krav Maga"; to spot, neutralise, and escape from, a threat as quickly and efficiently as possible. Most of the forms taught are quite simple, but brutally effective in a situation, and he would always advise us to utilise other methods in sparring to both expand our gross motor skills and our general knowledge. We'd also practice blindfolded occasionally, getting pushed etc. so as to learn what the adrenaline would feel like in a fight (even if in a comparably limited situation).

So far as i've been told, he (Wayne) actually teaches in a really explanatory way compaerd to most traditional teachers, who generally did not teach what they did not know and in his experience were predominantly masters in the areas that interested _them_, not all areas. So he teaches and explains a lot, which is interesting and really helpful as he accepts and responds well to questions as well.

All in all, he teaches modernised "ninjutsu", with weapons as well. Very cool stuff.

On another note, im seriously considering taking up Krav Maga as well, tehres a school down the road from me, and the description definitely makes it sound like my kind of martial art... so hopefully by the time i get back to doing Ninjutsu again (when i live closer), i'll be really getting somewhere with that too 

EDIT: What i am doing is very similar to the Bujinkan style, very similar to the video i posted, but without (at my level at least) much of the flipping/jumping. I believe much of that he did take out though, focusing more on the attacks etc.. as the jumps and whatnot are simply not effective enough (when used by the average person at least). Also, like i said before, i believe Wayne also _explains_ things much more than most traditional Sensei's.

This video is basically what i (and Humanoid) did... good fun, i really wish i could get back into it sooner.


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## Humanoid

Demoniac said:


> Holy shit, you are taught by Hatsumi Sensei?? Wayne told me a few stories about his teaching, and they were amazing to say the absolute least...



No no! I'm not directly taught by Hatsumi  I just meant I am in Bujinkan and Hatsumi is its grandmaster.

The video showed some the moves yes, but a bit show style maybe  And not quite 'the thing'. At least, it seems Kashiwa Bujinkan Ninjutsu is also trained under Hatsumi. I just wonder what are those white belts with black stripes.. Usually it's just pure white when 10. kuy, after that green/red/yellow depending on gender/age. Dan = black.


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## Jachop

Marv Attaxx said:


> I did Wu-Shu for about 7 years and I was taught by a real chinese champion
> But then she stopped doing courses
> I've been practising Judo for about 6 years. And I did some Wing-Tsun, Karate and Wrestling, too.
> I loved it but I had to stop because of school...
> I may start again soon, though



Cool man! You should start again. Me too. Don't know about wushu though, since it's a bit time consuming. I'd like something a bit less elaborate but still kickass - any ideas? XD


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## Daemoniac

Humanoid said:


> No no! I'm not directly taught by Hatsumi  I just meant I am in Bujinkan and Hatsumi is its grandmaster.
> 
> The video showed some the moves yes, but a bit show style maybe  At least, it seems Kashiwa Bujinkan Ninjutsu is also trained under Hatsumi. I just wonder what are those white belts with black stripes.. Usually it's just pure white when 10. kuy, after that green/red/yellow depending on gender/age. Dan = black.



Ooooohhh  Fair enough. The video is a demonstration, so it _is_ a bit showy, but the moves and much of it is very similar to what we were being taught. I cannot fucking WAIT to start up again...



Jachop said:


> I'd like something a bit less elaborate but still kickass - any ideas? XD



- Jujutsu
- Ninjutsu (Taijutsu)
- Krav Maga (although it seems 'simple' and rather unelaborate)

Theres a couple of other really nice Martial Arts, but many of them require absolute mastery to be really efficient in a live situation, have a search though, they're good fun


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## ShadyDavey

We've gone a bit beyond the discussion Demoniac and Myself were having but to quickly address a couple of points:

Given range to kick and the expertise to do so the TKD exponent can redress the balance should he be able to get his kicks in - its still in the favour of the Boxer simply because a lot of TKD schools don't monopolise on below the belt kicks in the same way Muay Thai does and as for a stool to the head?

A stool to the head swung by anyone, pretty much deals with anyone  

On the subject of Taijutsu/Ninjutsu - my boss did a little and its a very good style as long as you can par it down to the bare essentials...some of it is a little showy but once you get beyond that its brutal. I had a book on the Hanbo by Hatsumi and it was plain brutal - very effective. 

Pencak Silat is another style to look at - shares a lot of principles with Krav and again, while it looks showy its definately an efficient system.


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## Daemoniac

ShadyDavey said:


> some of it is a little showy but once you get beyond that its brutal.



Absolutely. Thats what he did (Wayne Roy); stripped it down and it was just incredible to see some of the results  I cant fucking wait to go back 

Apparently theres an old 8mm film of Hatsumi Sensei actually sparring (full contact) with some students (other black belts), and he's just flinging them around like ragdolls  I wish i could see that one...


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## ShadyDavey

I've seen an old 8mm film of him - I'll have to ask my ex-boss if he has a DVD version. He also has some footage of Osensei in his 70's and its utterly astounding. No guarantees but if he can find the files I'll host it somewhere.


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## Daemoniac

Aw dude, please do... that would just be incredible


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## canuck brian

I trained TKD and hapkido for 3 years (got a black belt...whoopdedoo), trained MMA for about a year and I'm starting Systema (Russian Martial Arts) this weekend. I'm expecting to be in a LOT of pain.

I found a lot of the TKD stuff to be ...well a lot of cardio. My instructor who was pretty much the only reason I kept going with it, showed me a lot of interesting tricks for "real" fighting as he thought the concept of using a sport form for self defence was rather silly. I do disagree that most of the TKD blocks are designed to defend against other TKD attacks though.


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## march

Jachop said:


> ... (anyone know the chinese name for that style of wushu btw?).



it would be "_tsui pa hsien_"

Did wushu for like 8 years, 4 times a week, then got a job and it went downhill from there ... considering starting again, but it's been ages. I'd do traditional stuff only though, Wushu is more like for younger people.


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## ShadyDavey

canuck brian said:


> I trained TKD and hapkido for 3 years (got a black belt...whoopdedoo), trained MMA for about a year and I'm starting Systema (Russian Martial Arts) this weekend. I'm expecting to be in a LOT of pain.
> 
> I found a lot of the TKD stuff to be ...well a lot of cardio. My instructor who was pretty much the only reason I kept going with it, showed me a lot of interesting tricks for "real" fighting as he thought the concept of using a sport form for self defence was rather silly. I do disagree that most of the TKD blocks are designed to defend against other TKD attacks though.



The first applications of those blocks you get shown are invariably against TKD techniques or at least traditional Korean/Japanese techniques depending on which version of TKD history you believe (read Taekwon-Do by Choi Hong Hi) its just fortunate that with a minimal amount of adjustment they work against other styles. 

Systema on the other hand, is very cool. Its very different for a hard style practioner (I did a couple of day courses) given its much softer, flowing nature but man, its a total breath of fresh air.


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## Tiger

Demoniac said:


> ^ Nice. Unfortunately the most i could do mine was twice weekly for 2 hour sessions  What's Shotokan actually like? I've heard of it before, and remember it sounding interesting.



Everything about it can be garnered here. 



Everyone will have differences of opinion I suppose, but for something like martial arts I prefer to looks things from a scientific perspective. Thats what traditional shotokan is, its a highly refined, 'simple' art that concentrates on body dynamics. For a fact it hits harder than any 'style' out there, as its emphasis is fighting against multiple opponents. 

If I'd found a better method to train I'd be doing it. The grappling arts are fine but unrealistic and the chinese arts are frankly flowerly and ineffective! (no offense but TKD is good for exercise but thats about it!)


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## ElDuderino

Tiger said:


> If I'd found a better method to train I'd be doing it. The grappling arts are fine but unrealistic and the chinese arts are frankly flowerly and ineffective! (no offense but TKD is good for exercise but thats about it!)



How do you find grappling to be unrealistic?


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## Tiger

I've never seen a group of guys jump someone and then let him wrap up one of their buddies in a choke hold.


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## ElDuderino

I guess if you're looking at it from that point of view it could be. But at the same time, I have never seen a group of guys jump someone and let him punch and kick his way out. If you get jumped by a group of guys, your chances are pretty slim no matter what your martial arts background is. When it comes to one on one fighting, I believe grappling is one of the most realistic and superior martial arts there is.


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## ShadyDavey

ElDuderino said:


> I guess if you're looking at it from that point of view it could be. But at the same time, I have never seen a group of guys jump someone and let him punch and kick his way out. If you get jumped by a group of guys, your chances are pretty slim no matter what your martial arts background is. When it comes to one on one fighting, I believe grappling is one of the most realistic and superior martial arts there is.



This ^^ is a truism - learn to grapple and be prepared to run if the odds get too high. 



> For a fact it hits harder than any 'style' out there, as its emphasis is fighting against multiple opponents.



While I do have a great deal of respect for Shotokan I've seen some insane displays of power from other arts that also make a study of body dynamics (TKD springs to mind as a lot of it _is _essentially Shotokan - Park Jung Tae side-kicking through 9 boards is something I've never seen replicated) but there's no doubting that its a very good style indeed for self-defence. 

Bottom line is that no one art is better than any other because for every piece of evidence to support one point of view, another can be produced to support the opposite so have fun, have respect for one another, and train with humility.

Sounds an awful lot like guitar playing.


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## Tiger

ElDuderino said:


> I guess if you're looking at it from that point of view it could be. But at the same time, I have never seen a group of guys jump someone and let him punch and kick his way out. If you get jumped by a group of guys, your chances are pretty slim no matter what your martial arts background is. When it comes to one on one fighting, I believe grappling is one of the most realistic and superior martial arts there is.



I dont have some point of view, its just that training self defense seems to imply that you're capable of just that. If you spend your time rolling on the ground with the theory that you're going to be going 1 on 1, it sounds like you're defeating yourself.

Thats why I feel its better to spend your time learning how to hit with the most force and also to be able to make contact, quickly and efficiently. You're not going to want to roll around on the ground with anyone when your ribs are broken, thats for sure. One on one is a fighters dream, but its very doubtful that you're going to be treated to such a luxury.



ShadyDavey said:


> (TKD springs to mind as a lot of it _is _essentially Shotokan - Park Jung Tae side-kicking through 9 boards is something I've never seen replicated) but there's no doubting that its a very good style indeed for self-defence.



Im pretty sure you've only seen sport karate then, because its very difficult to confuse TKD with traditional karate, and it would be very misleading to say that the essentials of the two have anything to do with one another. 

Also, for the record in case anyones reading, breaking boards does not equate to anything at all. Its a practice that ultimately just tricks people into thinking someone can hit effectively, used for demo's and side shows to make clubs money. Same with breaking bricks, etc.


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## ShadyDavey

According to a couple of respected TKD Masters, TKD has some of its roots in Karate - its not misleading at all to compare techniques if thats the case and if we're talking about power/technique tests (which is exactly why breaking was incorporated into TKD grading) and comparisons between Shotokan and TKD how else would we do it? 

Its a pure test of in isolation in an ideal setting - but a lot of highly respected masters choose to show their ability in that matter so yes, it does equate to something if _only_ a test of power and technique. Does it mean they can apply it in every situation? Or that it should have plaudits heaped on it as an "essential" part of an art?

No, of course not. Its not even practicsed by many these days (at least in the UK) because of the amount of injuries sustained by people attemtping it too early but given the amount of well respected practioners that choose to demonstrate via breaking I can hardly agree it means nothing. 

I've seen a fair few styles over the years and no, I don't have the two confused. There's been no clear provenance for TKD but the theories are that it either grew out of Korean arts in isolation, or was developed from Korean arts with input from other styles - notably Shotokan - and I haven't seen enough evidence in either case to make a firm decision.


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## Daemoniac

canuck brian said:


> I trained TKD and hapkido for 3 years (got a black belt...whoopdedoo), trained MMA for about a year and I'm starting Systema (Russian Martial Arts) this weekend. I'm expecting to be in a LOT of pain.



Thats awesome dude. Hapkido is supposed to be incredible. Never heard much about Systema? Whats it like?



canuck brian said:


> I found a lot of the TKD stuff to be ...well a lot of cardio. My instructor who was pretty much the only reason I kept going with it, showed me a lot of interesting tricks for "real" fighting as he thought the concept of using a sport form for self defence was rather silly. I do disagree that most of the TKD blocks are designed to defend against other TKD attacks though.



TBH, personally, the only blocks i find are utterly impossible to use in a live situation are Karate's. Absolutely useless. Its always great when you get an instructor who _is_ in it for the 'self defence' angle and is willing to show you things that you can do in a live situation. 

Hm... apparently i totally missed the next page 

As for which MA is most 'effective', i believe much of it depends on the individual too. Depending on what your body can do, what you can train it to do, and which one speaks to you most, and which you are willing to work around _yourself_ should you need to, to make it a good style of _self defense_. They all have fascinating histories though. 

EDIT: Just watched some Silat and Systema video's... wow. Systema is similar to Krav Maga from what i can tell, but not as 'brutal' and aggressive, and focused more on destabilising them and calmy disarming the opponent, and Silat is incredible :holyshit:... Traditional, but veeery easily adaptable, and the grapples are insane


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## gatesofcarnage

I did from 1st to 5th grade and became a black belt in 5th then i broke my knee and havent done andything since


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## ShadyDavey

> Silat is incredible :holyshit:... Traditional, but veeery easily adaptable, and the grapples are insane



Its the bomb yo!!

Always an art I wanted to do but never got time to travel to London for my nearest instructor. The traditional elements fused with well......any art that has "limb destruction" as part of the syllabus gets my vote for self defence for sure  

The focus on the individual is quite true - "its the man, not the art".


----------



## ballr4lyf

I did some tkd, aikido, and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu back during my college days...

I really wish I could get back into aikido, but just don't have the time anymore.


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## Daemoniac

Ok, well if i can find instructors ima try out Silat, Systema and Krava Maga until i can get back to my Ninjutsu


----------



## Pyramid Head

*I find that flaying my enemies is more efficient than any martial art.*


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## Stealthdjentstic

Pyramid Head said:


> *I find that flaying my enemies is more efficient than any martial art.*



flaying?


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## Pyramid Head

*Followed by raping.*


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## ElDuderino

Tiger said:


> I dont have some point of view, its just that training self defense seems to imply that you're capable of just that. If you spend your time rolling on the ground with the theory that you're going to be going 1 on 1, it sounds like you're defeating yourself.
> 
> Thats why I feel its better to spend your time learning how to hit with the most force and also to be able to make contact, quickly and efficiently. You're not going to want to roll around on the ground with anyone when your ribs are broken, thats for sure. One on one is a fighters dream, but its very doubtful that you're going to be treated to such a luxury.



I guess the point I am trying to make is that you can be the hardest striker in the world, but that's not going to help you when you get taken down and are on your ass, which is where 90% of fights end up.



Here, a black belt in shotokan faces a jiu-jitsu practitioner and as soon as he is on the ground, all of his training just went out the window.


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## Daemoniac

The thing with fighting, it _all_ depends _how_ the fights end up. If they manage to stay at a distance standing, then Tae Kwon Do practicioners will have more luck. If it stays up close and personal, then Jiujitsu/Hapkido styles will have a great deal of luck grappling and so on.


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## ShadyDavey

Demoniac said:


> The thing with fighting, it _all_ depends _how_ the fights end up. If they manage to stay at a distance standing, then Tae Kwon Do practicioners will have more luck. If it stays up close and personal, then Jiujitsu/Hapkido styles will have a great deal of luck grappling and so on.



Most encounters end up in grappling scenarios. If you take a leaf out of Geoff Thompson's book (famous doorman who's worked with Chuck Norris and has many ties in the Martial Arts) then you can train in your usual art, but if that doesn't involve emphasis on punching (another Boxing fan) or grappling, then you definately need to incorporate those as well.

Hapkido is another art that intruiged me - I like Korean styles anyway so that and Kuk sool Won were on the list but I just got lazy after picking up the guitar and for a while it was impossible to find a teacher in the UK.

So many styles, so little time lol


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## Daemoniac

Totally agreed. If i can find the time, im going to take up many at once  Im not too flexible, and even after dancing for several years i never got any _more_ flexible, so im honestly a little worried about taking on something like Hapkido (which does have some ties to Tae Kwon Do)... Especially when things like Systema, Krav Maga and Ninjutsu really don't need much flexibility at all (even Silat doesn't need _that_ much).

What think you?


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## ShadyDavey

I know that some of the Korean systems had grading requirements vis a vis kicking height (I know, its a bit silly) but I also remember that most of them were realistic in that they realised not everyone acquires flexibility at the same rate or to the same level - so basically I wouldn't worry if you wanted to do Hapkido.

I always thought the latter three looked like more fun however - theres a certain "rough edge" to them that I admire


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## Daemoniac

THe last 3 are more my kind of style, to be sure, _but_, i've checked it out, and 2 of them (Systema and Ninjutsu) are only taught in Brisbane (1hr away....) and i have no license yet 

So atm it looks like i can take on Hapkido, Krav Maga, and possibly Silat.


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## canuck brian

ElDuderino said:


> I guess the point I am trying to make is that you can be the hardest striker in the world, but that's not going to help you when you get taken down and are on your ass, which is where 90% of fights end up.
> 
> 
> 
> Here, a black belt in shotokan faces a jiu-jitsu practitioner and as soon as he is on the ground, all of his training just went out the window.




There are numerous ones online as well for TKD guys knocking the complete shit out of jiu jitsu guys- try to stand up to a properly trained TKD is usually a bad call as most of the jiujitsu guy's training went out the window (i've done both btw.) I recently watched a Systema practiitoner take on a brown belt in brazillian jiu jitsu in person. I should rephrase that to "utterly humiliate" the BJJ guy. 

Fights can go either way. You can be the best ground fighter in the world, but if your opponent knocks the living shit out of you before you even grapple, all of YOUR training went out the window. Besides, in a real fight, i'm going to ram my fingers into your eyes/ears, punch your throat as many times as possible, attempt to crush your nasal cavities, fishhook and generally attempt to immediately hospitalize someone. Most of the dirty tactics I learned were actually learned from a grappled position (like gouging your eyes.)

90% of the fights do not end up on the ground. Most of the time a BJJ guy will attempt to take it to the ground might be a better way of phrasing it.


----------



## ElDuderino

canuck brian said:


> There are numerous ones online as well for TKD guys knocking the complete shit out of jiu jitsu guys- try to stand up to a properly trained TKD is usually a bad call as most of the jiujitsu guy's training went out the window (i've done both btw.) I recently watched a Systema practiitoner take on a brown belt in brazillian jiu jitsu in person. I should rephrase that to "utterly humiliate" the BJJ guy.
> 
> Fights can go either way. You can be the best ground fighter in the world, but if your opponent knocks the living shit out of you before you even grapple, all of YOUR training went out the window. Besides, in a real fight, i'm going to ram my fingers into your eyes/ears, punch your throat as many times as possible, attempt to crush your nasal cavities, fishhook and generally attempt to immediately hospitalize someone. Most of the dirty tactics I learned were actually learned from a grappled position (like gouging your eyes.)
> 
> 90% of the fights do not end up on the ground. Most of the time a BJJ guy will attempt to take it to the ground might be a better way of phrasing it.



There is a reason you don't see any MMA fighters with a TKD or karate background. They simply cannot make it in a ring with guys who are strong grapplers and have any striking ability. There may be videos of TKD guys knocking the shit out of BJJ guys, but I haven't seen any. Every video I have seen, the opposite has happened, even when the BJJ guy is inexperienced and his opponent has 10+ years of training. I believe BJJ is the most effective self-defense martial art there is. Also, if you are in a fight and dirty tactics such as eye gouging and fish-hooking are your only defense, chances are you are in serious trouble.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

ElDuderino said:


> There is a reason you don't see any MMA fighters with a TKD or karate background. They simply cannot make it in a ring with guys who are strong grapplers and have any striking ability. There may be videos of TKD guys knocking the shit out of BJJ guys, but I haven't seen any. Every video I have seen, the opposite has happened, even when the BJJ guy is inexperienced and his opponent has 10+ years of training. I believe BJJ is the most effective self-defense martial art there is. Also, if you are in a fight and dirty tactics such as eye gouging and fish-hooking are your only defense, chances are you are in serious trouble.



Yeah BJJ is actually so much more applicable generally.


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## Daemoniac

ElDuderino said:


> There is a reason you don't see any MMA fighters with a TKD or karate background. They simply cannot make it in a ring with guys who are strong grapplers and have any striking ability. There may be videos of TKD guys knocking the shit out of BJJ guys, but I haven't seen any. Every video I have seen, the opposite has happened, even when the BJJ guy is inexperienced and his opponent has 10+ years of training. I believe BJJ is the most effective self-defense martial art there is. Also, if you are in a fight and dirty tactics such as eye gouging and fish-hooking are your only defense, chances are you are in serious trouble.



The thing that TKD doesnt take into account, is room. Same with most martial arts, bar those taught to defense forces (Systema, Krav Maga, Ninjutsu, possibly Silat, and there are a few others whose names elude me). The thing with TKD is that generally, it relies on having a bit of room between you and an agressor, and/or ideally, enough room to fling horrifically over-complicated kicks at them... Take something like Systema, and put them in the 'ring' (in, say, a club) and TKD guy gets assraped by a pudgy russian guy (i posted the video below ).

Im not saying that you _cant_ defend youself with things like TKD and Karate, its just that they arent prepared at basics for an actual encounter, and require a great deal of "on the fly" changes to the art itself to be truly efficient, unlike Krav Maga, whose goal is to take someone down in the quickest way possible, and ensure that they cant get up...

Watch this, the fat russian dude cracks me up soooo much


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## Stealthdjentstic

^ 1.54 is raw ownage!


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## Daemoniac

How's the pudgy guy tho


----------



## timbaline

I've been doing Muay Thai since I was 7


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## Daemoniac

^ Woah, very nice  Not my favorite style, but god damn is it effective in a fight  Awesome stuff.


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## ElDuderino

Muay Thai is definitely some badass stuff - very effective.


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## Daemoniac

Yeha, i appreciate the fact that it doesn't ignore the lower half of your body, good stuff.. Not to mention the fact that all of the guys who do it are massive....


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## jymellis

Demoniac said:


> giant[/I], but i never feel like it could be effective, especially seeing as how a whole half of your body (so far as im aware) is ignored... To be efficient you have to be taught a pefect combination of grapples, kicks, and punches, and weapons are a bonus. What we were taught was to escape first and foremost, and then to fight if there were absolutely no other options.
> 
> It always gets me how little some otehr Martial Arts are actually about 'self defence'...



im 32 now 6 foot 3 and 180 ish. in high school i was through school about 5 foot 100 maybe 115 pounds. as i said before i boxed for a number of years. and got into fights for being a "punkrokskatefag". most fights went like this. hill billy talks shit. i hit hillbilly 5 or 6 times before he has realized what happened. from there out it was the old "ground and pound" others where hill billy swings i side step and refer to result #1 lol. now on the other hand. alot of my losses where due to hill billy football guy tackling me and givin me the ground and pound! in a real fight you cant just stand and box with someone! i always tried to strike first as hard and fast as possible. just so happened boxing made me hit a little harder and faster than the average guy. BUT!! once on the ground i was FUKD! and that happened alot, especially cuz it was usually more than 1


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## Daemoniac

Thats the kind of thing im talking about, it takes a very open minded MMA to actually win in all four generic situations (kicking distance, punching distance, grappling, and floor), as most MMA take on only the styles that they like (so they pick a position, and tend to stick with it), and most _actual_ fighting styles do not focus enough on _all_ of them to begin with...

Nice work tho  (Demoniac hates hillbillys...)


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## forelander

I've done a little muay thai on and off. Realistically concentrating on a single style is a mistake, since they clearly have pros and cons. You can argue about BJJ vs muay thai all you want, the simple solution is to cross train and learn both. I'd like to do some grappling/mma in the future for that reason, but in terms of stand up 1 vs 1 I love muay thai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v-UQ5XnLz8

Sure against multiple guys or a good grappler he's probably fucked, but hoooooly shiiiiiiiit.


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## Stephen

I used to do Shotokan Karate, got to Nidan (2nd Dan) and graded with Sensei Keinosuke Enoeda (RIP). Stopped around 2001 since i didn't want to chance injuring my hands (guitar). I was going to go for my 3rd dan but at the time (probably is still) the age limit for that was 21, and i'm only 21 now.

Sometimes i think about taking it up again but i wouldn't be able to train regularly due to gigs/rehearsals.


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## Daemoniac

^ Wow, congrats dude... Its a shame that so many people seem to have to give it up  I really want to actually see my cousin again, i havent seen him since he got his black belt TKD, and started Capoeira...  So i need to beat him up... god damn showboating taekwondoeira-flipping bastard


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## ShadyDavey

Demoniac said:


> *snip - other stuff I agree with*
> 
> Watch this, the fat russian dude cracks me up soooo much




Mikhail Ryabko!!

The man's a beast. Never met him personally but I had a work colleauge who trained with him and Vladimir (Vassiliev, the tall, serious dude in the suit) whenever they were in the UK. Very, very cool stuff and he's one of the nicest guys you'll meet by all accounts.

Systema is probably an excellent art for guitarists btw, you never have to really endanger your precious fingers and hands


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## Daemoniac

I like the fact that it doesn't seem as hell-bent on total destruction of your opponent, unlike Krav... Means that you're less likely to get in trouble with the law as well


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## ShadyDavey

Aye, the option is there of course but its more about control - and its very adaptable to situations other than the 1on1 face-off. 

AND you get to wear those crazy Russian BDU's which are hella comfortable instead of some white battle pajamas


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## Daemoniac

What's your take on Systema as a whole? I dont really know that much about it, so what would you say its like compared to others?


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## ShadyDavey

Well, I only did a little bit but I found it hard to adjust being a hard stylist to that point - there's a little in common with Aikido (circles....oh so many circles) and a lot of common sense (they strive to make you re-use your known techniques in new ways so that you don't have to re-learn blocks and strikes) but if you can learn to relax into their methods its very good - definately the most fluid and efficient art (in terms of how much energy you exert) that I've encountered ......at least on par with Aikido I'm told.

One of the first drills we did was simply having someone push you in the shoulder. Learning to give way and use your body mechanics to launch swings simply from the momentum they give you is odd, but very effective. 

The next drill was to be pushed in the same way, but if you notice when you're pushed and go with it, your arms will naturally want to swing with your body...so you simply torque through the waist and generate a strike - a simple slap to the side of the head. 

Its quite amazing how hard you can slap in that situation, and how much disorientation you can cause (cupped plam, slap to the ear....its very unpleasant if used for real).

Its been a few years so coming up with specifics is tricky - I mainly recall that once i relaxed out of the "hard" mentallity (caused me problems when trying Wing Chun as wel) the techniques are remarkably simple to pick up and very effective. I know that most self-defence techniques end up with the opposition on the floor and you're presented with the choice of doing the Chip Shop Riverdance on their head or beating a hasty retreat. 

Succinctly - its about intuition and improvisation to solve problems. There's few "right or wrong" choices if you can make them work and you only apply as much force as needed whilst learning to keep focused.

If you find a good teacher, and aren't as set in your ways as I was, its an excellent art to study.


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## hufschmid

I trained at one point a very long time ago when I was about 18 - 20 at some WE DAO KAN, which is a very rare martial art from Laos...

I also realised that I needed my hands in order to play guitar so I had to stop because its was very much related to submission hand torsion which was not very good for the hands 

Here is a link I found googeling.....

We Dao Kan


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## Tiger

Theres a lot to be said, but the big thing I would like everyone watching the MMA TV craze to remember is that MMA is not actual fighting. Last I checked I would not be allowed to kick out anyones knee, groin or throat. It is a very restricted sporting event, and the dudes are tough as hell but they train for a sport, not for fighting. If I had to pick fighting a shotokan practitioner or an MMA athlete, I'd pick the later, that way I dont wind up dead. People think that when you take a shit on MMA you're trying to sound like a tough guy. Im not, but I am an experienced fighter, often cases twice as long as these MMA athletes, and Ive been through enough matches/fights to know whats real and whats sport.

Posting one video of a grappler taking down a shotokan (a shotokan with no stance or sense I might add!) does not prove superiority of a style over the other. Again, that grappler is reduced to nothing if he has to fight on his feet, and totally fails the second two opponents comes into the picture.

It also needs to be mentioned that we always take it to the ground, the only difference is that we finish the fight on our feet and secure it on the ground. Again, you need to be prepared for whatever, not just geared up to take it to the floor.


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## canuck brian

Russian Martial Arts Toronto : Fight-Club.ca - local toronto Systema place - they have vids, DVD's....

Vladimir Vasiliev owns a school in Thornhill Ontario, which is about ...ohh...20 minutes from me.

Tiger - totally agree with you. You're not allowed to knee people in the face if they're on their knees, no elbow strikes to the back of the head.... if you're in a fight, it's a real fight. If you think you can get out of the fight and escape, that's what people should be doing. If you can't; move to incapacitate your opponent as fast as possible using whatever techniques you've got available. I'm starting systema just to learn the very close quarters combat, escapes and maneuvers. 

I've managed to find that the martial arts I have trained in blend very well together. I still hate when people put one martial art over the other. If you can't find a benefit in long developed system of self defence and attack, you need to re-evaluate exactly what you're trying to do because being ignorant to something that can change the outcome of a fight is not a good call.


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## ElDuderino

Tiger said:


> Theres a lot to be said, but the big thing I would like everyone watching the MMA TV craze to remember is that MMA is not actual fighting. Last I checked I would not be allowed to kick out anyones knee, groin or throat. It is a very restricted sporting event, and the dudes are tough as hell but they train for a sport, not for fighting. If I had to pick fighting a shotokan practitioner or an MMA athlete, I'd pick the later, that way I dont wind up dead. People think that when you take a shit on MMA you're trying to sound like a tough guy. Im not, but I am an experienced fighter, often cases twice as long as these MMA athletes, and Ive been through enough matches/fights to know whats real and whats sport.
> 
> Posting one video of a grappler taking down a shotokan (a shotokan with no stance or sense I might add!) does not prove superiority of a style over the other. Again, that grappler is reduced to nothing if he has to fight on his feet, and totally fails the second two opponents comes into the picture.



Good luck trying to kick out the knee, groin, or throat of a skilled MMA fighter. Even if you were allowed to do it, it isn't likely you could land that type of a blow. If I had to pick, I would fight the shotokan practitioner in a heartbeat. I posted the video merely to show that no matter how skilled you are in striking, it does no good when you get taken down, as often occurs in real fights. No MMA fighter or BJJ practitioner would ever put himself in a position where he could get kneed in the face, whether in a street fight or in a legitimate match (also, PRIDE allowed kicks to the head of a downed opponent).


----------



## ShadyDavey

There's a lot of the usual remarks in this thread (all of which are common sense, all of which I generally agree with) but beyond those I would like to drop some food for thought into the conversation - its a partial quote from Brazillian Capeoira Master Bira Almeida:



> "Many people are unable to see Martial Arts as a means of spiritual unfoldment or inner work. In the West we tend to think of "Winners" and "Losers" with no other possibilities. In a fight, in martial arts training, the process of confrontation is absorbed by the participants so that each learns something. Neither the "Winner" or the "Loser" will live forever in a permanent form. In a fight, as in life both engage in a process of learning and change. The opponent is not the enemy, he is merely "I" in another form. Winning, is to win with yourself.
> 
> A martial art is like a mirror in which you look at yourself, before you wash your face every morning. You see yourself, simply, the way you are"


I'd go on to say that in a real fight, there are no winners or losers - only survivors. For a definition of a real fight? Park Jung Tae served in the Vietnam war and had a run in against a GI whilst unarmed - his only comment on the matter was "I went to the hospital, he went to the morque". Thats a real fight, and I'm sure that no-one ever wants to be in that situation.

I'm not advocating non-violence because I don't believe thats a realistic approach to the World (another quote incoming).



> Man is violent and the ideal of non-violence is only an immature approach to violence. What is important is to face the violence, understand it and to go beyond it, not to invent an escape, an ideal called "non-violence" which has no reality whatsoever - Krishnamurti


Which dovetails nicely with:



> "Non violence is infinitely superior to violence. But the message of non-violence is for those who know how to die - not for those who are afraid of death. If one has not that courage, I want him to cultivate the art of killing and being killed, rather than in a cowardly manner to flee from danger - Ghandi


Here's an admission - I stopped training seriously in Martial Arts because a) I valued my hands and b) I didn't like what it mentally did to me as a person. The man I saw in the mirror was not a person to be admired or respected because Martial Arts had given me too much confidence, but of a very tenuous sort - the sort of confidence that carries ego, not the confidence of self-worth.

I looked to prove my ability far too often, with too little thought for the consequences and a particularly harrowing week after an altercation at a Nightclub saw me leaving "serious" training forever. I can still defend myself should the need arise, but contemplation of other styles, and other philosophies has given me a better understanding of the World and my place in it. 

After that, while I can discuss style vs style, its the underlying thought process that interests me - the personal development and the tools it gives you to live your lfe.... not who "wins" or is "better"


----------



## ElDuderino

ShadyDavey said:


> After that, while I can discuss style vs style, its the underlying thought process that interests me - the personal development and the tools it gives you to live your lfe.... not who "wins" or is "better"



Very good food for thought.


----------



## canuck brian

ElDuderino said:


> Good luck trying to kick out the knee, groin, or throat of a skilled MMA fighter. Even if you were allowed to do it, it isn't likely you could land that type of a blow. If I had to pick, I would fight the shotokan practitioner in a heartbeat. I posted the video merely to show that no matter how skilled you are in striking, it does no good when you get taken down, as often occurs in real fights. No MMA fighter or BJJ practitioner would ever put himself in a position where he could get kneed in the face, whether in a street fight or in a legitimate match (also, PRIDE allowed kicks to the head of a downed opponent).



When most guys shoot, they put their heads in the perfect spot for strikes that you're not allowed to do in a MMA fight. Watch almost any MMA match online where someone shoots a standing guarded opponent and you'll see about a 2 second window where ANYONE can drive their elbow in the back of the head or neck....except you're not allowed to. I'm not allowed to break a finger attached to a hand attempting to choke me out either. Or the thumb. So yeah, in a fight where about half of your arsenal is "not allowed" and you have zero ground training, you're pretty fucked. 

The best way to word the your last sentence would be "No MMA fighter or BJJ practitioner *would want to be* in a position where he could get kneed in the face, whether in a street fight or in a legitimate match.

This does happen, I've had it happen and I've knocked someone's teeth out because it happens. Not being a dick about it, but blanket statements about comparing martial arts usually turns into MMA vs everything else which sucks because it's not MMA.



> After that, while I can discuss style vs style, its the underlying thought process that interests me - the personal development and the tools it gives you to live your lfe.... not who "wins" or is "better"



I left my Taekwondo studio because the instructor who I had since the beginning left. He taught me so much about how view what you are learning, life around you....almost very zen-like. A lot of the more modern martial arts studios /MMA studio's aren't really tackling that spiritual aspect and I feel that you lose a lot when you don't look at that aspect as well.


----------



## Stephen

Demoniac said:


> ^ Wow, congrats dude... Its a shame that so many people seem to have to give it up  I really want to actually see my cousin again, i havent seen him since he got his black belt TKD, and started Capoeira...  So i need to beat him up... god damn showboating taekwondoeira-flipping bastard



Cheers.

Yea, its a shame i stopped really because i did enjoy training and competing in competitions but i love music more


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## jaxadam

Tae Kwon Do for most of my life, and for the past 6 years MMA.

I wouldn't downplay or take anything away from a person with a Karate or Tae Kwon Do background. I think people who have a solid background in one of the stand up arts have a much better advantage coming in to the MMA game.

Look at Georges St. Pierre and Anderson Silva. Two of the best fighters in the UFC, and they came from Karate and Tae Kwon Do backgrounds. The days of the wrestlers (i.e Tito Ortiz and Matt Hughes) are over.


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## ShadyDavey

> I left my Taekwondo studio because the instructor who I had since the beginning left. He taught me so much about how view what you are learning, life around you....almost very zen-like. A lot of the more modern martial arts studios /MMA studio's aren't really tackling that spiritual aspect and I feel that you lose a lot when you don't look at that aspect as well.



Absolutley - all the arts and artists I respect possess that quality (call it what you will) and I know from studying a pure Sport martial art (Lau Gar Freestyle when I first started) that without that element of self-examination, meditation and philosophy then learning simply to hit people does tend to lack a certain something.

Not to say I don't appreciate the "Sporting" styles (or sports application of traditional styles) but an art should have the whole package in my opinion....or it ceases to be worthy of the "art" ephithet.


----------



## WhiteShadow

The only two Martial Arts that i ever cared to bother with are Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Muay Thai for the standup and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for the ground. If you can be competent at both of those, you'll be a pretty well rounded fighter.

Personally, i think Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the most valuable Martial Art there is. Why? Because an EXTREMELY high percentage of fights, whether it be in the street or in a sanctioned fight, end up on the ground. So having good knowledge of how to get the upper hand when on the ground is very valuable.


----------



## ElDuderino

canuck brian said:


> When most guys shoot, they put their heads in the perfect spot for strikes that you're not allowed to do in a MMA fight. Watch almost any MMA match online where someone shoots a standing guarded opponent and you'll see about a 2 second window where ANYONE can drive their elbow in the back of the head or neck....except you're not allowed to. I'm not allowed to break a finger attached to a hand attempting to choke me out either. Or the thumb. So yeah, in a fight where about half of your arsenal is "not allowed" and you have zero ground training, you're pretty fucked.
> 
> The best way to word the your last sentence would be "No MMA fighter or BJJ practitioner *would want to be* in a position where he could get kneed in the face, whether in a street fight or in a legitimate match.
> 
> This does happen, I've had it happen and I've knocked someone's teeth out because it happens. Not being a dick about it, but blanket statements about comparing martial arts usually turns into MMA vs everything else which sucks because it's not MMA.



When a guy shoots, it is more like a split-second window, and while he could get elbowed in the back of the head, the final result will be the same: the other guy ends up on his ass. If your only defense when on the ground is to go after digits, you are likely in a horrible position and will get choked out/arm broken pretty quickly. Within two seconds of having a choke applied, your lights start going out.

You are right about my statement, I should have been more specific. Obviously anybody can get put in a clinch and get kneed in the face. I was referring to kneeing a downed opponent. You will never see a fight where one person is on their knees facing their opponent who is standing, waiting to knee the other guy in the face as was mentioned in another post.

Obviously, the best way is to be well-rounded in several martial arts, both grappling and striking. I guess my feeling is just that as a means of self-defense, I would rather learn grappling because of its effectiveness and how commonly situations where it could be utilized occur.


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## canuck brian

> Obviously, the best way is to be well-rounded in several martial arts, both grappling and striking. I guess my feeling is just that as a means of self-defense, I would rather learn grappling because of its effectiveness and how commonly situations where it could be utilized occur.



Now that's a statement I can totally stand behind.

I'd really like to see just for kicks what other mixed martial arts would be executed like karate/sambo, systema/BJJ....i'd just be curious. I can't really see many other arts being as effective in a clinch (for strikes) as Muai Thai though. I could be totally wrong - thoughts? Clinch grappling has a lot of various arts, but MT just seems so dominant in a clinch for strikes.


----------



## Daemoniac

canuck brian said:


> I've managed to find that the martial arts I have trained in blend very well together. I still hate when people put one martial art over the other. If you can't find a benefit in long developed system of self defence and attack, you need to re-evaluate exactly what you're trying to do because being ignorant to something that can change the outcome of a fight is not a good call.



YES!!

Any martial art will blend with any other, should you _TRY_ to do it properly. There is no better or worse art, just preferences, and different approaches to the same concept; staying alive. SOme focus on the ground, others up close, others grappling, but all have the same goal. Usually its just that many arts tend to over-specialise.


----------



## progmetaldan

I think that's what particularly appeals to me about this 'sd tactics' course near my work, its mainly based off Krav Maga, but utilizes many different styles for different situations including Wing Chun, Doce Pares Eskrima, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Hock's SFC etc. And they change up training to put you in different 'real-life' situations to be able to deal with them.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ Thats incredible 

What i ideally want, is to know enough martial arts to deal with most things  So things that are easy to take to (Krav Maga and Systema), and then things that are hard to take to, but obscenely efficient (Ninjutsu/Bujinkan, Silat, Hapkido) It'll work my agility, as well as giving me a little more flexibility (Which i am SERIOUSLY lacking at the moment ).

It seems better than sticking with truly 'traditional' martial arts, as like i said i find they do over-specialise.

Let me know how it goes tho dude, sounds great


----------



## progmetaldan

yeah, I'm thinking I'll go along and just watch a class first, but it sounds ideal! And also good because one of my shoulders has quite limited movement, but they reckon it can work around that fairly well, unlike some of the more traditional which require much greater agility and flexibility as you mentioned.


----------



## canuck brian

progmetaldan said:


> I think that's what particularly appeals to me about this 'sd tactics' course near my work, its mainly based off Krav Maga, but utilizes many different styles for different situations including Wing Chun, Doce Pares Eskrima, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Hock's SFC etc. And they change up training to put you in different 'real-life' situations to be able to deal with them.



Damn! Is this something taught exclusively by that club? I'd love to just watch to see how they teach and apply all of it....then attend it.  If you end up taking that course, you've got to post a review. please. 

If you get an instructor who's willing to teach you how to fight in a 'real-life' situation, almost any martial art becomes partially applicable in some way. 

TKD - somewhat inapplicable in a real fight:
Flying spinning tornado kick - this is one of those really flashy moves that, if you actually connected, would probably end a fight. Good luck connecting with it. 

applicable
TKD - direct short kicks to the sides and inside of ankles and calves, knees to quads and opponents knees, sweeps ..... you really only need about a foot of distance between your target and your foot to get a majority of your power behind your basic attacks. In a fight, you might get one or two of these in before someone gets wise to it...still connected and did damage!

Has anyone suffered really bad injuries from their training? Both of my ankles are pretty beat from the TKD and my shoulders are a little iffy sometimes from the mma/bjj classes. I fractured a kneecap when a clashed knees with another sparring partner during a warmup exercise... I can't wait to see what systema does to me.


----------



## Daemoniac

progmetaldan said:


> yeah, I'm thinking I'll go along and just watch a class first, but it sounds ideal! And also good because one of my shoulders has quite limited movement, but they reckon it can work around that fairly well, unlike some of the more traditional which require much greater agility and flexibility as you mentioned.



Still, awesome stuff. That's another reason for me too; i broke my ankle in a few places a couple of years ago, so while i can walk etc.. i have slightly limited flexibility in it, and there are a bunch of bolts holding it together  From what i've seen tho, they can work around it :epichuzzah:



canuck brian said:


> If you get an instructor who's willing to teach you how to fight in a 'real-life' situation, almost any martial art becomes partially applicable in some way.
> 
> TKD - somewhat inapplicable in a real fight:
> Flying spinning tornado kick - this is one of those really flashy moves that, if you actually connected, would probably end a fight. Good luck connecting with it.
> 
> applicable
> TKD - direct short kicks to the sides and inside of ankles and calves, knees to quads and opponents knees, sweeps ..... you really only need about a foot of distance between your target and your foot to get a majority of your power behind your basic attacks. In a fight, you might get one or two of these in before someone gets wise to it...still connected and did damage!



Very good example 




canuck brian said:


> Has anyone suffered really bad injuries from their training? Both of my ankles are pretty beat from the TKD and my shoulders are a little iffy sometimes from the mma/bjj classes. I fractured a kneecap when a clashed knees with another sparring partner during a warmup exercise... I can't wait to see what systema does to me.



Ive never had any bad injuries, worst i got was nearly taking my eye out during fencing (i did that for a couple of years). As for systema, good luck  It'll be fun though.


----------



## ShadyDavey

Canuck - you won't get hurt doing Systema, don't worry.

Injuries? lots of sprains/bruises and one torn shoulder ligament as well as a badly damaged hip flexor for a long while. The shoulder stilll twinges, the hip still gives me trouble in the cold (oh my god, I sound old lol ) but nothing "serious".


----------



## Daemoniac

We need a new social group: "The martial artists of *IMPENDING DOOM*"


----------



## ZeroSignal

Demoniac said:


> We need a new social group: "The martial artists of *IMPENDING DOOM*"



Also one for everyone else called "flee-ers from ninjas".


----------



## Daemoniac

"The hunted" or "The *DOOMED*" it should be called 

Cant wait. Ill put up my observations about teh Krav Maga on Wednesday after i;ve had a look.


----------



## canuck brian

Demoniac said:


> "The hunted" or "The *DOOMED*" it should be called
> 
> Cant wait. Ill put up my observations about teh Krav Maga on Wednesday after i;ve had a look.



I know one guy who's been training in it for about 4 years and he loves it. I tried one of their classes and almost puked during their warmup...


----------



## Daemoniac

canuck brian said:


> I tried one of their classes and almost puked during their warmup...



 Wow... So it's intense?


----------



## progmetaldan

canuck brian said:


> Damn! Is this something taught exclusively by that club? I'd love to just watch to see how they teach and apply all of it....then attend it.  If you end up taking that course, you've got to post a review. please.
> 
> If you get an instructor who's willing to teach you how to fight in a 'real-life' situation, almost any martial art becomes partially applicable in some way.



Yeah, I think it is exclusive, they call it 'Street Defense Tactics' and its run by a guy Graham Kuerschner, SDT was going before they aligned with Krav Maga, but Graham met Eyal Yanilov and realised what he was doing was very similar, so he decided to go under the Krav Maga banner... There's a heap of great info on their program and philosophies on their website if you're interested in learning more: Krav Maga - Street Defensive Tactics teaches Krav Maga in Adelaide and seminars in Sydney and Melbourne Australia



Demoniac said:


> "The hunted" or "The *DOOMED*" it should be called
> 
> Cant wait. Ill put up my observations about teh Krav Maga on Wednesday after i;ve had a look.



I went and watched a class this morning, look fantastic, I'm going along a couple of times next week as part of a 'trial offer' but my intention is to start going along regularly. 



canuck brian said:


> I know one guy who's been training in it for about 4 years and he loves it. I tried one of their classes and almost puked during their warmup...



The warmup looked tough, but not over the top, he might have been at a very advanced class perhaps...


----------



## Daemoniac

Fucking awesomesauce!!! I found a Systema class near me!!!  This will be awesome assuming i can afford it


----------



## progmetaldan

Coolness!


----------



## Daemoniac

Yes indeed! I very much look forward to it.


----------



## progmetaldan

Went along to my first Krav Maga class last night, fantastic workout, and such good fun, I'm definately planning on continuing!  Further down the track I'm interested in looking into their weapons training as well, I think it is Eskrima...


----------



## Daemoniac

Theres a few martial arts that do weapons; Escrima, Silat, Bukinkan/Ninjutsu, Krav Maga and Systema, various Kung Fu styles, Wu Shu... it depends what you want it for 

Glad to hear it was good tho dude, im going to have a watch tomorrow night


----------



## DaveCarter

I would love to do Krav 

I did Shotokan Karate for about 11 years, then switched to Tae Kwon Do when I couldnt find a Karate club near my uni. After less than 2 years TKD I tore a ligament in my right knee and have since been told I wont train again


----------



## Daemoniac

that sucks major ass dude, is there anything at all you can do?


----------



## DaveCarter

Not really, it means I cant do much in the gym either. It basically would need 6 months straight of zero use and regular physio to heal up to a point where I could try doing anything active again. I cant have 6 months of no playing guitar or driving, especially as Im doing a music degree and I drive to work, rehearsals, home etc., plus I just flat out couldnt afford that much physio!! Maybe sometime in the future, but for now it aint getting any better any time soon


----------



## progmetaldan

Demoniac said:


> Theres a few martial arts that do weapons; Escrima, Silat, Bukinkan/Ninjutsu, Krav Maga and Systema, various Kung Fu styles, Wu Shu... it depends what you want it for
> 
> Glad to hear it was good tho dude, im going to have a watch tomorrow night



I want it for fun... 

Oh well, maybe once I've been doing it a while I'll have a look into the Eskrima as well...

Hope yours goes well tomorrow night mate!


----------



## thedownside

chavhunter said:


> I would love to do Krav
> 
> I did Shotokan Karate for about 11 years, then switched to Tae Kwon Do when I couldnt find a Karate club near my uni. After less than 2 years TKD I tore a ligament in my right knee and have since been told I wont train again



i feel your pain... i kickboxed for 14 years, then had my knee accidently taken out. that was it for me. i can do the gym, but only now, after years of recovery, and i still cant do some of the weight training even that i used to. and stuff like running, forget that.


----------



## Daemoniac

That sucks. I really hope my ankle doesn't put me in any strife with this


----------



## auxioluck

Demoniac said:


> That sucks. I really hope my ankle doesn't put me in any strife with this



I feel that pain, Mischa.

I tore two tendons in my right ankle one year, couldn't train for a year and a half, came back, and after another year, tore a ligament in my left ankle. Haven't been able to seriously train for almost two years. I'm just now getting the flexibility and strength back it it that I had prior. I think there may be strife, but not enough to put you out indefinitely.

I share the pain man!


----------



## Daemoniac

I didn't tear any tendons (thankfully ) I broke it in 3 places and dislocated it though...


----------



## jaxadam

I've really messed myself up over the years. I have a lot of "weather detectors", as I like to call them now 

It's funny... over the years I've noticed two consistent things that make a good fighter: heart and body mechanics.

I've seen very athletic guys who can't throw a punch or kick worth a shit, and rely on brute strength, not technique, on the ground.

I've seen humble guys with a good mindset and not necessarily ripped up that have developed great striking and ground technique.

I guess you can figure out who has the advantage.


----------



## thedownside

jaxadam said:


> I've really messed myself up over the years. I have a lot of "weather detectors", as I like to call them now



haha, same here! knuckles especially!



jaxadam said:


> It's funny... over the years I've noticed two consistent things that make a good fighter: heart and body mechanics.



yup, agreed, and learned what your body is best at and then explioting it. i'm a flexible guy with huge fast legs (from hockey and track) kickboxing was the best fit for me


----------



## Daemoniac

Thats one of the things i love about martial arts; finding the one that suits you, and that you enjoy  Its like a guitar... a guitar that can punch and kick people


----------



## jaxadam

thedownside said:


> haha, same here! knuckles especially!



Tell me about it... I'm actually completely missing my index and pinky knuckle on my right hand, and my middle knuckle is about twice as big as it should be.







That's actually normal. It looks much worse every once in a while when I break it. I quit getting casts after the second time I broke it.








thedownside said:


> yup, agreed, and learned what your body is best at and then explioting it. i'm a flexible guy with huge fast legs (from hockey and track) kickboxing was the best fit for me



As long as I've been at it, I'm still not afraid to admit my ground sucks. I'm just not made for it! It's not bad by any means, it's probably much better than the average persons, but it's definitely my weak point, and I really go through phases with it.


----------



## thedownside

jaxadam said:


> As long as I've been at it, I'm still not afraid to admit my ground sucks. I'm just not made for it! It's not bad by any means, it's probably much better than the average persons, but it's definitely my weak point, and I really go through phases with it.



my ground always has, and always would suck, i'm just built to strike


----------



## jaxadam

thedownside said:


> my ground always has, and always would suck, i'm just built to strike



Sometimes I'll roll with a few of the guys in class, and some nights I'm really on, locking kimuras, triangles, knees, and chokes, but other nights I just have nothing. And I'm not very ambidextrous on the ground. I feel much better sinking a triangle with my left leg.

Probably coming from such a strong striking background, we both feel much more comfortable and confident up on our feet.


----------



## canuck brian

jaxadam said:


> I've really messed myself up over the years. I have a lot of "weather detectors", as I like to call them now
> 
> It's funny... over the years I've noticed two consistent things that make a good fighter: heart and body mechanics.
> 
> I've seen very athletic guys who can't throw a punch or kick worth a shit, and rely on brute strength, not technique, on the ground.
> 
> I've seen humble guys with a good mindset and not necessarily ripped up that have developed great striking and ground technique.
> 
> I guess you can figure out who has the advantage.



Dude! So bang on. Most of the guys/girls that I know that train aren't ripped at all, but holy shit are they scary.


----------



## Daemoniac

^ They're the scariest kind... not "in your face" but you _know_ that if anything goes down, they will _floor_ whoever started it


----------



## progmetaldan

That's like our Krav Maga instructor, he doesn't look out of the ordinary at all, but when he moves, wow is it fast!


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Demoniac said:


> My Ninjutsu class was geared towards actual situations and actual defense more so than fitness, and generally with the kind of blunt, efficient styles it shouldn't matter too much if your shoulder is a bit out. Just let them know whats up. My experience with that kind of Martial Art is that complete flexibility isnt needed, as most kicks that hit over a certain height are redundant, the time i did the class i never had to kick over belly height  and there wasn't too much flexibility needed in your shoulder.
> 
> Also, 19 isnt too late at all




Right, go to any good Muay Thai gym and tell them that "kicks over a certain height" are redundant. All the K-1 legends are Muay Thai based, and with good reason; it's the most efficient and hard hitting style out there. It has none of the "show" of styles like TKD, and none of the weaker strikes and defense holes of other martial arts.

"Kicks above a certain height are redundant"?

Try telling that to Peter Aerts!


----------



## ShadyDavey

Kicks over a certain height aren't neccessary to be a great or effective fighter - but if you can execute them properly they are a great asset...*points at Master Sken*....


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Prime era Tyson couldnt kick, but was a great fighter, so it's true you don't "need" kicks, but if you can do them, as anyone with a decent level of skill in Muay Thai can, you might aswell use them.


----------



## ShadyDavey

Esp Griffyn said:


> Prime era Tyson couldnt kick, but was a great fighter, so it's true you don't "need" kicks, but if you can do them, as anyone with a decent level of skill in Muay Thai can, you might aswell use them.





Really can't argue with Muay Thai, did some myself back in the day and its right up there in my opinion - If I hadn't stopped training it would have been one of two styles I kept up.


----------



## Daemoniac

Esp Griffyn said:


> Right, go to any good Muay Thai gym and tell them that "kicks over a certain height" are redundant. All the K-1 legends are Muay Thai based, and with good reason; it's the most efficient and hard hitting style out there. It has none of the "show" of styles like TKD, and none of the weaker strikes and defense holes of other martial arts.
> 
> "Kicks above a certain height are redundant"?
> 
> Try telling that to Peter Aerts!



What i mean, is that in a "self defence" situation, it takes a hell of a lot of both skill, self control (even with a shitload of adrenaline/tunnel vision/shaking etc...) and whatnot to perform, and once you get past chest or shoulder height, why bother?

Physically, it takes more effort than it is worth to even be able to _do _them (in my opinion that is), and then other than in a sports application, too much effort to even use them...

Chances are you probably _could_ use them in a fight, but to me, the amount of good aim, consistency of opponents movement (so you dont end up kicking the *nothing* next to their head), and control over your bodies natural responses so you can even see well enough to put a kick like that together seems redundant.


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Demoniac said:


> Chances are you probably _could_ use them in a fight, but to me, the amount of good aim, consistency of opponents movement (so you dont end up kicking the *nothing* next to their head), and control over your bodies natural responses so you can even see well enough to put a kick like that together seems redundant.



A kick moving laterally is unlikely to miss the head - I certainly didn't miss many in sparring, and if they duck they will put themself off balance; it creates a fantastic oppertunity to transition the roundhouse into Glaube Feitosa style whipping kick. The momentum from the body rotation will add a hell of a lot of power into that weaker karate style kick, so even if you look like you are going to miss, you can tweak it so you don't. But I admit, this isn't for some beginner who has had a few weeks of "Muay Thai" at his local crappy MMA gym, kicks in real fights should only be used by those well versed in them.


----------



## Daemoniac

Esp Griffyn said:


> A kick moving laterally is unlikely to miss the head - I certainly didn't miss many in sparring, and if they duck they will put themself off balance; it creates a fantastic oppertunity to transition the roundhouse into Glaube Feitosa style whipping kick. The momentum from the body rotation will add a hell of a lot of power into that weaker karate style kick, so even if you look like you are going to miss, you can tweak it so you don't. But I admit, this isn't for some beginner who has had a few weeks of "Muay Thai" at his local crappy MMA gym, kicks in real fights should only be used by those well versed in them.



That seems really reasonable. TBH what i was saying was more talking about the 'traditional' martial arts (Karate, Tae Kwon Do etc..), as i have little to no experience with boxing or Muay Thai. I think the big differrence is that traditional ones don't teach improvisation. Almost every other succesful "self defence" martial art puts a large focus on improv, which is important, regardless of the 'style'.


----------



## jaxadam

Demoniac said:


> I think the big differrence is that traditional ones don't teach improvisation. Almost every other succesful "self defence" martial art puts a large focus on improv, which is important, regardless of the 'style'.



I don't think that's true at all. A big part of my TKD training was sparring with improvisation. There's a lot to be learned from some of the TKD sparring structures, and that's with opened and closed stance, etc.


----------



## Daemoniac

jaxadam said:


> I don't think that's true at all. A big part of my TKD training was sparring with improvisation. There's a lot to be learned from some of the TKD sparring structures, and that's with opened and closed stance, etc.



Hm, fair call. I suppose it diffes from dojo to dojo, and then again from person to person


----------



## jaxadam

Demoniac said:


> Hm, fair call. I suppose it diffes from dojo to dojo, and then again from person to person



There are a lot of Karate and Tae Kwon Do schools that just teach the basic art of kicking, punching, forms, etc.

I got lucky because I went to a school where we have a Korean 9th degree black belt who won a King of the World Competition, and taught a few different styles: Tae Kwon Do, Pro Tae Kwon Do, Um Guk Kwon, Internal, and Weapons... I can remember classes where he would make us lay like cockroaches upside down for 10 minutes, and if you don't think that's hard, try it.

A lot depends on the school, and I'll tell ya, you gotta try the best to get what you want out of what you're being taught, and I think everyone should take the advantage of going to multiple schools until they find one they're happy with.


----------



## Daemoniac

See that's great, and it means also that chances are the sparring you were doing was against more than just one style (even if they were 'technically' the same art), which helps an infinite amount.

I absolutely agree on people trying multiple styles though, martial arts are a personal thing, the second you find one you really enjoy doing, stick with it  Its well worth the effort


----------



## jaxadam

Demoniac said:


> See that's great, and it means also that chances are the sparring you were doing was against more than just one style (even if they were 'technically' the same art), which helps an infinite amount.
> 
> I absolutely agree on people trying multiple styles though, martial arts are a personal thing, the second you find one you really enjoy doing, stick with it  Its well worth the effort



My late father was Green Beret who taught hand to hand combat out in California before he was shipped off to Vietnam. He took me to karate class twice a day, and he encouraged me to learn all that I could learn (and stressed being able to do the splits) at an early age, no matter if the style was practical or not.

I slowly learned that I gravitated towards styles that were more practical, and the funny thing was he never really pushed me towards anything, I just developed this desire to get into the mix of something that seemed more "real", not "show".

A lot of people thing Tae Kwon Do is "show", but it certainly is not. I have personally been in street fights and I've seen street fights where a swift kick to the head has really ended it. And I'm talking about everyone around just being like WTF, carrying the person off, and leaving.


----------



## Daemoniac

jaxadam said:


> My late father was Green Beret who taught hand to hand combat out in California before he was shipped off to Vietnam. He took me to karate class twice a day, and he encouraged me to learn all that I could learn (and stressed being able to do the splits) at an early age, no matter if the style was practical or not.
> 
> I slowly learned that I gravitated towards styles that were more practical, and the funny thing was he never really pushed me towards anything, I just developed this desire to get into the mix of something that seemed more "real", not "show".
> 
> A lot of people thing Tae Kwon Do is "show", but it certainly is not. I have personally been in street fights and I've seen street fights where a swift kick to the head has really ended it. And I'm talking about everyone around just being like WTF, carrying the person off, and leaving.



I think a lot of people (myself included, sad as it is to say) have a thing about TKD. Its one of those Martial Arts that _seems_ really showy, to the point where every time i hear the words Tae Kwon Do, i forget about how helpful the actual motor skills you'd learn to _do_ those showy things would actually help 

I need to spar with my cousin, seriously. I miss it


----------



## jaxadam

Demoniac said:


> I think a lot of people (myself included, sad as it is to say) have a thing about TKD. Its one of those Martial Arts that _seems_ really showy, to the point where every time i hear the words Tae Kwon Do, i forget about how helpful the actual motor skills you'd learn to _do_ those showy things would actually help
> 
> I need to spar with my cousin, seriously. I miss it



TKD has significantly helped me in the transition to MMA. I've thrown kicks at guys (to the head) that never saw them coming, and I think it has really helped my overall standup significantly.

I just hate to see people knock some of the traditional stuff, because it really does have it's place, especially with someone who knows what they're doing


----------



## ShadyDavey

Sensei Terry O'Neil made kicks work in the testing-ground of Liverpool nightclubs for years even while the "accepted wisdom" was to concentrate on closer ranges which just goes to prove the application is down to the person, not the art. If you have the physical attributes, skill and experience you can make practically any technique work for you but quite honestly I would say that making kicks work in practicle situations is definately the exception rather than the rule - but if you do have the ability to do so its certainly a dangerous weapon...very, very dangerous in fact.

I gave up training (as I said earlier) after an altercation in a nightclub because I hit a guy in the head with a reverse turning kick and honestly thought I'd killed him. The amount of power generated by the legs can be quite staggering so even if you can pull it off, do be careful


----------



## progmetaldan

Ok, I've officially signed up for Krav Maga, I've really enjoyed the trial sessions, and I'm hoping I can get to a point where I can be graded sometime later this year, should be good!


----------



## Daemoniac

Congrats dude, im glad you like it 

I couldn't go to mine the other night  And now i have a job  So i'll hopefully have enough money to do it constantly at least when i do start


----------



## progmetaldan

yeah awesome. I signed up for 12 months and paid upfront, so I saved a bit that way, and also it meants I'll force myself to at least give it enough time to get to a reasonable level to see what its really capable of.


----------



## Seven

I'm starting Lau Gar Kung Fu very soon, and I'm also looking into Jujitsu. Is it realistic being able to do two at the same time?


----------



## ShadyDavey

Yeah, its fine to do two at once but Lau Gar (speaking as someone who's done it) whilst fine for sport applications left a lot fo be desired for self defence - depending of course on your Instructor


----------



## Daemoniac

Yeah the whole 2 at once thing is fine, as long as either 1. you can seperate yourself easily enough to do the 2 arts (mainly an issue with 'traditional' martial arts) though it isnt too hard, or 2. the martial arts are modern/flexible enough to not have to worry about including other martial art elements in there.

You'll be fine


----------



## tylershelburne

Im training for MMA. Look at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Of all the things ive trained in its by far the best


----------



## Daemoniac

Very nice  I hear massively good things about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu... as you can probably see if you've read the rest of the thread


----------



## progmetaldan

I just bought a stand with a 5 ft punching/kicking bag on one side and a speed-ball on the other. Should help with the Krav Maga, as well as just my fitness in general...

What I was wondering, is it a good idea to use gloves initially so I don't damage my hands? Is there some sort of glove which will give a bit of protection, but isn't a completely padded boxing glove, as alot of the Krav stuff is open hand technique, and bare-handed...


----------



## Daemoniac

I think there is yeah. Go into any big sporting store (A-Mart All sports would be a good starting place i think) and you should be able to find something. Theres the full boxing gloves, light boxing gloves, and then there are smaler gloves without the complete shaping as well. I think it probably would be a good idea to buy them initially, it always surprises me how hard punching bags are...


----------



## progmetaldan

Yeah, that's what I've found as well... 

In my lunch break I just went down to Amart, but they had none, and Rebel Sport, who had some 'Kostya Tszyu' fingerless boxing-gloves which looked like they might be an option, padding over the knuckles and a little bit on the side, but still can easily hit open-handed... I might see if the local Martial Arts supply store (Tan's) has anything like that also...


----------



## Daemoniac

Yeha man, Martial Arts stores are the best place to check first


----------



## ShadyDavey

I generally just taped my hands up whilst training on the bag - but a good pair of gloves is far more advisable unless you want hands you can break bricks with (hint: you don't)


----------



## Daemoniac

ShadyDavey said:


> a good pair of gloves is far more advisable unless you want hands you can break bricks with (hint: you don't)



Or do you?


----------



## ShadyDavey

Depends if you have a pressing need to break bricks and don't have a chisel and hammer I guess 

(I value mah hands too much these days, breaking is really hard on your knuckles if you get it right, let alone wrong.....)


----------



## progmetaldan

Demoniac said:


> Yeha man, Martial Arts stores are the best place to check first



I just discovered there's one just a short walk from my house, and they sell so many awesome weapons as well! Ronin Martial Arts Supplies I think I'm gonna be spending some time there in the future... 



ShadyDavey said:


> I generally just taped my hands up whilst training on the bag - but a good pair of gloves is far more advisable unless you want hands you can break bricks with (hint: you don't)



haha, no I don't think that would be quite necessary... I'll probably get some fingerless boxing gloves and some tape and experiment with both until we've been taught to strike properly at class.


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## ShadyDavey

Aye, that sounds like a far more sensible suggestion - its all too easy to hurt your hands whilst training as it is so definately take care of them


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## progmetaldan

Yeah, especially being into guitar as well, damaged fingers and wrists would be quite a nuisance I'd say...


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## progmetaldan

Just got back from my most intense Krav Maga session so far. We were doing groundwork, defending yourself on the ground etc. It certainly takes a lot more out of you, and my shins are going to be terribly bruised tomorrow... And invariably when there's 20 pairs of people rolling around kicking and grabbing legs and trying to generally keep their opponent in front of them, collisions are predictable. Hence why I also have a cut and swollen lip/cheek, courtesy of the back of someone elses head...

Yet it was so much fun!


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## jaxadam

Ground is definitely a lot of endurance. 

You'll notice a lot of those pains, i.e. your shins, will start to go away after a while.


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## Daemoniac

Sounds awesome  In that slightly painful way, but hey, how else are you going to learn


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## progmetaldan

Yeah exactly! 

It's strange how refreshing a bit of contact is every now and then...  



jaxadam said:


> Ground is definitely a lot of endurance.
> 
> You'll notice a lot of those pains, i.e. your shins, will start to go away after a while.



That's what I figure, its gotta do something for toughening me up, so it'll be definately worthwhile in the long run.


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## Daemoniac

progmetaldan said:


> Yeah exactly!
> 
> It's strange how refreshing a bit of contact is every now and then...



As opposed to walking up and down a dojo in lines, drilling the same punch for 20 minutes at a time...  Though, to be fair, it does have its place.


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## progmetaldan

I went along to the Eskrima (stick fighting/weapons) class after Krav Maga last night, so much fun! Possibly even more fun than the Krav Maga, though not quite as useful perhaps. Anyone else done any Martial arts weapons training?


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## Cadavuh

Any other capoeiristas here? Ive been training for about 2 years


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## Daemoniac

None on here that i know of, but my cousin has been practicing for around 4 years now.... i'd hate to fight that boy, black belt taekwondo, and now 4 years of Capoeira as well


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## ShadyDavey

Couple of friends have done a bit but I haven't personally done any - with my dodgy hip I'd probably be off searching for my lost leg as it departed mid spin


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## Jason

I used to do capoeira back in highschool


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## Daemoniac

Ha, there you go, someone on here DOES do it  (well, did... )


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## a7stringkilla

ive always lifted weights but i quit playing guitar for 6 years and pretty much put all that effort into martial arts. just like alot of people i saw the first ufc and had to learn jits. i had to do judo for a year or so cause jits hadnt blown up yet. once it did i was a freakin maniac with that and boxing for about 5 years. i think its cool mma blew up but at the same time i wont wear tapout anymore cause it doesnt mean anything to me. way too trendy now. i bought my shirts at old shows from the tapout guys selling them out of a trailor. once i noticed all the guys that dont train wearing that brand i threw them all in the trash.


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## progmetaldan

As well as the Krav Maga and Eskrima, I'm starting a bit Iaijutsu, as Grandmaster Sekiguchi Komei Adelaide Komei Juku is coming to my town to do a seminar on Katana and Naginata in July. Should be awesome, and it also should mean I'll have a Katana to post pics of in the not too distant future. (It will not, however, be sharp, as unfortunately I still need all my fingers for guitar playing...  )


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## ShadyDavey

Now that is one I always wanted to try and never did - you will indeed have to keep us posted


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## Daemoniac

Iaido would be incredible to learn. Id rather like a sharp Katana someday.


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## ShadyDavey

With my luck I'd end up with not only broken fingers, but missing a couple too 

Nah, its one style I fancied having a go at but I just couldn't find a class near me when I was really keen. Doing some Kenjutsu would also make me quite happy so Its something I'll look into when (if) I get back on mah feet.


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## Daemoniac

My job is leaving m with less money than i expected  So my lessons are taking a back seat for now. Sad, but true.


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## ShadyDavey

Demoniac said:


> My job is leaving m with less money than i expected  So my lessons are taking a back seat for now. Sad, but true.



I know exactly how you feel except no-one wants to employ me at all so I haven't had a disposable income for a couple of years. If I want martial arts I have to go down to the local pub at kicking-out time and provoke someone ;p


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## Daemoniac

ShadyDavey said:


> I know exactly how you feel except no-one wants to employ me at all so I haven't had a disposable income for a couple of years. If I want martial arts I have to go down to the local pub at kicking-out time and provoke someone ;p



 Just go down and start with the personal insults 

"Your mother was a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries"


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## progmetaldan

I am quite fortunate at the moment in that I have quite a steady income, and not all that much responsiblity or obligation with it, and the fact that there are quite a few different Martial Arts places reasonably near to my work or home, so I'm making sure I make the most of it whilst I have the opportunity... 



ShadyDavey said:


> Now that is one I always wanted to try and never did - you will indeed have to keep us posted



Yeah it looks really interesting, I most certainly will keep you guys posted...


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## progmetaldan

Just purchased the book 'Flashing Steel, 2nd edition: Mastering Eishin-Ryu Swordsmanship' by Masayuki Shimabukuro as well as a wide belt and wooden Katana so I can start practicing a bit to prepare for the Iaijutsu seminar with GM Sekiguchi who is coming here in July...


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## Daemoniac

^ I have a boken from when i did Ninjutsu... i shall challenge you


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## Cadavuh

I tried ninjutsu for like 3 months and it was pretty boring. They say they train for real life application but the shit that i trained with them was not very practical. Also there were a bunch of weird people just going to they could say they are a ninja


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## Stealthdjentstic

Cadavuh said:


> I tried ninjutsu for like 3 months and it was pretty boring. They say they train for real life application but the shit that i trained with them was not very practical. Also there were a bunch of weird people just going to they could say they are a ninja


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## Daemoniac

Cadavuh said:


> I tried ninjutsu for like 3 months and it was pretty boring. They say they train for real life application but the shit that i trained with them was not very practical. Also there were a bunch of weird people just going to they could say they are a ninja



Fair enough. What i was doing was a modified version of "Bujinkan" as taught by Hatsumi Sensei. My sensei, Wayne Roy, learnt under him in the late 60's i believe, through to the 80's? Its not "ninjutsu" i dont think, not technically (you know, if you trace back the lineage and so forth ) But that's what he called it, and it was really really handy  Good for real life application, fitness, and mental health too


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## MFB

I think I'm gonna start studying Kata in my spare time and do a little practicing on my own


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## progmetaldan

Demoniac said:


> Fair enough. What i was doing was a modified version of "Bujinkan" as taught by Hatsumi Sensei. My sensei, Wayne Roy, learnt under him in the late 60's i believe, through to the 80's? Its not "ninjutsu" i dont think, not technically (you know, if you trace back the lineage and so forth ) But that's what he called it, and it was really really handy  Good for real life application, fitness, and mental health too



There's a couple of Bujinkan Ninjutsu places near me, where the instructors trained under Hatsumi Sensei also, I'd like to try it out at some stage in the future, how did you find it? 



Demoniac said:


> ^ I have a boken from when i did Ninjutsu... i shall challenge you


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## Daemoniac

It was great. I believe what i was doing was, to an extent, simplified a little, with less of the showy aspects and more simple, efficient moves and so forth. Put it this way though; if it were closer, id still be doing it. Excellent martial art.


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## progmetaldan

Coolness, I'll have to keep it in mind. So many different Martial Arts to try out, so little time! I'm currently doing Krav Maga (including weapons training based on Doce Pares Eskrima, Escrido & Pangamot) and just starting getting into some Iaijutsu, but eventually I'd like to do both Ninjutsu and Hapkido as well, they both look really interesting!


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## Daemoniac

My big 4 to do are: Krav Maga, Systema, Ninjutsu, and Pencak Silat. God i cant wait to have some money


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## progmetaldan

Has anyone here used Tiger Balm or any other similar products after an intense session of Martial Arts impact, and do they work? My shins get terribly bruised and sore, will using something like that help them strengthen up sooner?


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## Daemoniac

Tiger balm = epic win. Its really warm, and it definitely helps soothe your muscles. If its really cold, have a shower, wait until you're completely dry, then put some on. It can be a bit extreme if its too cold, or if you are still wet


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## niklas_0770

I have been practicing Krav Maga for 1,5 years now and I actually get scared of my own reflexes some times... It's a really effective system and without a doubt the funniest workout I have ever had.


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## progmetaldan

niklas_0770 said:


> I have been practicing Krav Maga for 1,5 years now and I actually get scared of my own reflexes some times... It's a really effective system and without a doubt the funniest workout I have ever had.



Awesome!

Yeah it is a very effective system, and I know what you mean about the reflexes, and I've only been learning a few months! My instructor (who is the IKMF Director for Aus/NZ) was telling about how he was walking down the mall at Christmas time, holding one of those long rolls of wrapping paper which are tightly rolled up, and some guy moved quite quickly into his peripheral vision, and before he realised it, he had almost stabbed it into the guys face...  luckily he was quick enough to realise there was no threat, and stopped himself. Then he started just waving it around randomly as if he was some wierdo trying to shadow spar while he was walking... 

Have you been graded at all? I've got my Practitioner 1 grading in a couple of weeks...


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## Cadavuh

Heres me kicking you in the face and being generally badass 








I like to yodel as well. This ones pretty old


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## progmetaldan

Cool... 

Are you a gymnast?


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## Cadavuh

nah read my earlier posts im a capoeirista! I go with a few friends to train acrobatics at gymnastics places sometimes


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## progmetaldan

haha, its cool I knew that, I was just stirring... 

If I was gonna do something more acrobatic like, I reckon I'd probably do Wushu, but I don't think my body could handle it, I think I'll stick to small yet efficient movements...


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## Cadavuh

The problem with wushu(and most other asian martial arts imo) is that it is too disciplined and nitpicky on technique and form. There is a set number of moves and variations of those moves which you must do a certain way and its very competitive. Capoeira in the other hand is the total polar opposite, its totally free form. Anything and everything is a move, no matter what you have your own unique and original game. It allows so much more room for creativity and expressing yourself. It is competitive but in a very fun and loving way. The downside is that it takes VERYYYYYY long to get anywhere near good at it because there are so many aspects to it. Theres your basic kicks and movements which takes about a year and a half to get down solid, your florieo(fancy, more ground oriented movements), acrobatics, music(including singing, learning the songs, and playing all the instruments), and most important of all your game which takes years to develope.


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## progmetaldan

yeah, it looks super impressive, but not for me... But one of my mates does it, and I've a lot of respect for those who do well with it.


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## Daemoniac

progmetaldan said:


> haha, its cool I knew that, I was just stirring...
> 
> If I was gonna do something more acrobatic like, I reckon I'd probably do Wushu, but I don't think my body could handle it, I think I'll stick to small yet efficient movements...



My issue too. Im _way_ to un-flexible to do anything like Hapkido or Capoeira, even after years and years of classical dance training my flexibility was still absolute arse.


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## Cadavuh

Leg flexibility for kicks just comes with time from training the kicks. Same with lower back and shoulder flexibility for fancy bendy moves which takes a little more time and training.


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## ShadyDavey

Flexibility isn't hard to attain, and its not as limiting as it might seem with regard to arts that would seem to demand high levels - most of them work to some extent without being able to stick your right foot in your left ear.....

Dan Inosanto still does Capoeria ahd he's of quite an advanced age - just depends how much training you're prepared to do in order to achieve your goals, and what those goals are.


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## Cadavuh

Also in capoeira you kicks should actually be rather low. If you throw them way high youll just get swept and fall on your ass


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## progmetaldan

ShadyDavey said:


> Flexibility isn't hard to attain, and its not as limiting as it might seem with regard to arts that would seem to demand high levels - most of them work to some extent without being able to stick your right foot in your left ear.....
> 
> Dan Inosanto still does Capoeria ahd he's of quite an advanced age - just depends how much training you're prepared to do in order to achieve your goals, and what those goals are.



Dan Inosanto is awesome. 

But it's amazing, over the weekend I took it upon myself to practice my sidekicks, and especially my left side, as I just didn't have the coordination or balance to get any power at all, and from a solid hour or so of concentrated practice, both slowly for balance and more quickly to try to get some speed, I found I had a lot more flexibility than I thought, especially once I actually got the mechanics of pivoting etc. correct. It was great, and it was really encouraging to see some significant improvement, its almost as if you just have to actually try, and at home where you don't feel embarrassed when you fall over... 

My legs/hips are feeling it today though...


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## ShadyDavey

Its all about practice, and concentrating on technique - just like a lot of guitar. Once you can perform a technique flawlessly slow, you can work on height, speed and power. Couple of tips with side kicks:

For low kicks, you don't have to chamber all the way as you would with a more traditional Karate (or more especially TKD) approach. The average kneecap takes ~40lbs of pressure to break and even kicks chambered at 45 degrees or so and immediately sent into the target generate that with ease (a firm favourite of Grandmaster Hee Il Cho if you ever see any of his instructional literature).

That said, the way to effective side kicks is through the chamber and controlling the power and height of the kick all comes from there - differentiating it from a roundhouse kick is also essential (Bill Wallance utilises the differences even at his age, and absolutely murdered people in the ring by doing do) as while both are effective, they both serve different needs.

Just don't strain your baby-getter


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## progmetaldan

Yeah its real tough to have much control and accuracy with the sidekick so far. In Krav Maga we could pretty much never kick above the hips with sidekicks anyway, and are encouraged to be able to generate power without chambering for kicks/stomps to knee/shin/ankles etc.


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## ErykaDaemons

Been interested in martial arts for years. I've studied Jeet Kune Do, Wing Tsung, and some Hapkido. Right now I am really interested in Krav Maga, I like the no-nonsense attitude.

What are peoples opinion on staying with one system? Personally I like to lean as many systems as I can and then take what works in each of them, creating something that is solid. Anyone else do the same thing?


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## progmetaldan

Yeah Krav Maga is great, highly recommended!

I do a bit of Doce Pares Eskrima, and I'm considering doing some Wing Chun and Kung Fu as well, but mainly I'd just do those for fun. Krav Maga is a bit like JKD in the sense that it is already taking bits and pieces from different styles, mainly boxing, judo and Jujutsu and the weapons defense is similar to many of the FMA's, so its quite good in that respect, it pretty much covers all areas of striking, grappling, weapons etc. 

In other related news, last saturday morning I passed my grading for Practitioner Level 1 in Krav Maga! Went through all the techniques in the syllabus etc. felt very comfortable with everything, so it was all good. So anyway, I'm now officially a Practitioner Level 1 in IKMF Krav Maga! Yeah, only 9 more levels until I'm an 'Expert'...


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## AK DRAGON

KRav maga was my first choice when I was looking, though here in Anchorage there are no schools for it. So I joined Jinen Ryu Karate. It's pretty close to Okinawan Karate


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## progmetaldan

If anyone's interested in what was involved in the Krav Maga grading, I wrote a journal about it on a Martial Arts website which I frequent: Martial Arts Planet Feel free to drop by and read it.


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## ErykaDaemons

progmetaldan said:


> Yeah Krav Maga is great, highly recommended!
> 
> I do a bit of Doce Pares Eskrima, and I'm considering doing some Wing Chun and Kung Fu as well, but mainly I'd just do those for fun. Krav Maga is a bit like JKD in the sense that it is already taking bits and pieces from different styles, mainly boxing, judo and Jujutsu and the weapons defense is similar to many of the FMA's, so its quite good in that respect, it pretty much covers all areas of striking, grappling, weapons etc.
> 
> In other related news, last saturday morning I passed my grading for Practitioner Level 1 in Krav Maga! Went through all the techniques in the syllabus etc. felt very comfortable with everything, so it was all good.* So anyway, I'm now officially a Practitioner Level 1 in IKMF Krav Maga!* Yeah, only 9 more levels until I'm an 'Expert'...


 
Congrats!


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## progmetaldan

Cheers mate!


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## ADAMAKAGORE

I just started learning MMA. I´m training brazilian jiu'jitsu and muay thai.


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## progmetaldan

Cool, that seems like a popular choice for MMA stuff, hope it goes well for ya!


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## progmetaldan

Thought I'd share a journal entry I wrote of the seminar I went to yesterday arvo, from memory a couple of you were interested in the Iaijutsu stuff...



> Yesterday afternoon I had the priviledge of attending a seminar held by the Adelaide Komei Juku for Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu. It featured 21st Grandmaster Sekiguchi Komei, as well as Master Shimizu Nobuko, Headmaster of Ryoen Ryu Naginatajutsu.
> 
> This particular seminar which was 4 hours in duration was more aimed to cater for people with other Martial Arts experience but interested in learning some more about Classical Japanese Swordsmanship. There had been a more intensive sessions throughout the week for those who actually practice MJER at the dojo regularly.
> 
> It was fascinating to sit under the instruction of the GM Sekiguchi, although everything had to be said through translation, the advice and thoughts he had to share, not to mention his incredible skill in multiple disciplines, was invaluable. Gaining some insight from Master Shimizu on using a Naginata was also very interesting.
> 
> Both Masters commanded massive respect, however both were very approachable and open to questions, and able to share a laugh despite the language barrier.
> 
> All in all it was an incredible experience and one which I'll never forget. I'll hopefully be able to join the dojo regularly one day however it is a long way from where I work and live, so at the moment unfortunately it won't work out. But it's given me a few things I can practice with my bokken, and some great drills which will improve my fitness and strength regardless of what art I'm learning at the time.
> 
> After a long session, the Masters were gracious enough to hang around for some photos, one of which I got with Grandmaster Sekiguchi which is very cool, thought I'd share it.


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## hufschmid

Here is a video I made...

My best friend here who is demonstrating a unique Taiji style which only 25 people in the world know....

John Mos has been in martial arts all of his live and is also one of the very rare WE DAO KAN experts....

Here is a link to this art... You can see John demonstrating some techniques...

We Dao Kan, les techniques.

He has numerous Kung Fu grades, he knows and teaches many style....

Anyway here is a demonstration of the San Xue Shan style taiji founded by Master Maiji, enjoy 

Myself I have no clue about martial arts so dont ask me any questions lol



John is my only real friend, we actually know each other since 1987 





Here with one of my guitars


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## hufschmid

new video, enjoy


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## Esp Griffyn

ADAMAKAGORE said:


> I just started learning MMA. I´m training brazilian jiu'jitsu and muay thai.



One of those new "MMA schools" (that are popping up everywhere!) in my city was offering "Muay Thai", and having attended it I was not impressed. It was just kickboxing with some elbows and knees thrown in. No emphasis on the culture of Muay Thai, no emphasis on the tactics, advanced techniques etc. Imo it could be taught better so that the students could better use it in the MMA ring / cage, but thats just me. Granted some of the stuff you could learn from proper Muay Thai instruction is probably not that applicable to the MMA arena, but a lot of it is. Certainly, even when you watch someone like Wanderlei Silva fight, his "Muay Thai" background is mentioned a lot, but what most MMA fighters use is so heavily modified it hardly resembles Muay Thai at all.

Call me old fashioned, I love MMA but when I wanted to learn a martial art I wanted the most brutally effective system, I chose MT, but went into it knowing that what MMA commentators and a lot fo MMA schools call "Muay Thai" was not the real deal.


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