# Why pay-to-play is financially unsound for venues



## KingAenarion (Feb 26, 2012)

So someone necrobumped up this thread

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/li...g-thing-tour-seems-very-skecthy-thoughts.html

and it reminded me of an article I read recently.

La Club Owners


Now while I don't agree with EVERYTHING he says in the article, most of it is really quite true.


----------



## Razzy (Feb 27, 2012)

This guy is 100% on point.


----------



## KingAenarion (Feb 27, 2012)

Well yes and no. Not every venue should be paying every band that wants to play there. You want bands who are going to make people come back to your venue. You want good bands... so unless you have a proven track record, I don't think the idea of not paying bands or not paying them much is bad. However, if it's a quality band, then yes, you should be paying them.


----------



## Explorer (Feb 27, 2012)

Previously posted here on SS.org:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ge...essional-musician-article-music-industry.html

A few other relevant discussions about the musicians' point of view:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/live-performance-stage-sound/150532-gig-gig.html

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/53780-so-whats-pay-play-thing.html


----------



## KingAenarion (Feb 27, 2012)

Can't believe I didn't see that in my search 

Oh well... It's still good discussion


----------



## in-pursuit (Feb 27, 2012)

do you see/hear about a lot of pay to play type stuff down sydney way? I've never heard of it up here, while I've never been in a band that gigged I've know lots of people who have and never heard of it happening up in Brisbane at all.


----------



## KingAenarion (Feb 27, 2012)

It's not an Australian thing as much... but I've had venues do this thing where if you don't bring a minimum amount of people to your gig you have to pay the venue. They put on 8 bands, charge $5 at the door and if your band doesn't bring like 8 people then you pay.

It's a bit of an interesting thing from my perspective. I kind of like it, because my band is the kind of band that in 1 live show people can decide they like. We're showmen, with catchy melodies and songs you can groove along to. It allows us to reach dedicated metalheads. It's easy for us to get those kind of numbers as we have 10 or 15 dedicated fans in Sydney (that aren't family/friends) which I'm pretty happy with for the 1 demo and 5 shows we've played.

It forces the other bands to actually promote the gig... which bands tend to suck at doing... but it still should be the venue, not the bands doing the promoting in most cases.


----------



## Quikblade (Feb 29, 2012)

Seems strange to me.

The best local venue in my area is about £60 i believe (more on weekends).

And we usually just pay that and sell the tickets ourselves to cover it although I suppose were just doing the promoters job by knowing a few acts.


----------



## Soubi7string (Mar 2, 2012)

Theres a Venue here that pays bands that have a track history at their joint.
so,first time = no pay
until you bring more people = shitty pay

in which I whole heartily agree with and think is the fairest thing possible.


----------



## cwhitey2 (Mar 2, 2012)

I have recently got into booking shows and promoting so ill give my 

There is no way you can pay every band.

Its one thing if you are booking all local bands. Ill pay pay every band if its ALL locals.

One thing that makes me mad is when you bring in a decent size band or 3, don't make other bands sell tickets or anything (just show up and play) and they want to get paid...and you live 10 min away.

I understand bands need money...I play in a band as well. But i think bands think to highly of them selves today. My band is small no one really knows of us we just like playing shows cause its fun, we don't care about money or anything...just playing live. WE have NEVER gotten paid. And I have never asked for money.

The fact that a no name local band will want money for a gig that they arnt really going to bring people to pisses me off. I have been turned down by bands that want money and I wouldn't pay them. Which is fine by me. 

One problem is...is that when your in a band you don't realize how much money it takes to put on a show. And the fact that I book shows for fun means that money is coming out of my pay check from my real job. Which means that me booking your band for X amount of money means i think i can make X amount of money from 'your fans'. If i don't...i don't eat for the week.

My point is in the end we all need to make money, but only when bands have earned it. I think when you get to point were you have a steady following you can then begin to ask for money. And the fact the economy is shit dosnt help one bit.

Touring bands are a whole other story


----------



## synrgy (Mar 2, 2012)

I spent many, many years working in restaurants.

If I checked back with a table a few minutes after dropping off their food, and somebody informed me that they didn't like their plate for whatever reason, I would immediately do anything I could to remedy the situation. Order something else, re-order the same thing prepared differently, comp a dessert; whatever the situation called for.

If somebody ate every last morsel of food on their plate, and THEN at the END of their meal they handed me an empty plate and said something like "this was terrible, and I expect you to remove it from my bill", I would - with backing from management - find a polite way to tell them they're Shit Out Of Luck.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if a promoter wants to say "if you don't draw, you don't get paid", that's fine, but hand-in-hand with that policy should be the policy that "If you don't draw, you don't play". IE, if the venue in question is a pay-to-play, or set up such that the bands have to sell x amount of tickets, simply don't allow the band to play if they haven't met those requirements. If they did sell *some* tickets, let them play a reduced time slot, or refund the few tickets they sold to the band before telling them they won't be playing.

That said, if said venue DOES let a band play a full set, the band should be compensated, period. I don't feel there's any logical argument against that. If the work in question were ANY other kind of work, this debate wouldn't be taking place: 

If a mason builds you a fireplace, "fuck you, pay me."
If a carpenter builds you a shed, "fuck you, pay me."
If a plumber clears your shower drain, "fuck you, pay me."
If a bartender pours you a drink, "fuck you, pay me."
If a chef prepares you a meal, "fuck you, pay me."

It shouldn't be any different in this situation. If a band plays you a set, "fuck you, pay me."

Just my 2 cents, though, and it's no secret I have a skewed perspective on the World, generally speaking.

*edit* In fairness, I do believe this situation wouldn't be as rampant if A) bands were better about making sure they understand the terms of the gig prior to confirming the booking and b) if venues were better about making sure bands understand the terms of the gig prior to confirming the booking.


----------



## wlfers (Mar 2, 2012)

Some of it has to do with the demands of the touring bands. As a local band getting on some larger shows, we took upon our shoulders part the weight of making up for venue fees and the salary of the touring band. And I understand it, to a degree. One show we were required to sell $2,300 worth of tickets... And the whole issue is exacerbated by the attitude, "legacy", and certainly the real estate of the Hollywood and Sunset Strip clubs. 

Drawing a crowd, playing well, selling your tickets all get you on good terms with the promoters and the venue (excluding one "world famous" place I can think of) often makes it easier in the long run. Getting on good shows, having to sell fewer tickets, getting higher timeslot etc. 

There is this one awesome cozy local venue about 25 minutes from Hollywood where bands can get paid if they promote and organize the show themselves.


----------

