# Blackmachine new headless models



## Ziricote (Jan 7, 2019)

Is it true this new headless models are going in production finally. Everyone finally try a Blackmachine guitars 

http://blackmachine.net/vi.htm


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## cardinal (Jan 7, 2019)

lol at the sustain block. 

I'm sure the guitars are very nice.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 7, 2019)

Is the "and double ball end strings for toolless string changes" a concern for anyone? I'm hoping that's optional, because double-ball string availability is minimal (at best) and is a limitation for scale length and string count.


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## JSanta (Jan 7, 2019)

Looks like an old Ibanez Voyager if it were headless


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 7, 2019)

so basically a steinberger gm4s


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## Jeff (Jan 7, 2019)

Wow, that cutout looks super half-assed.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Wow, that looks super half-assed.





Can't wait to see what these go for on Reverb.


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## Randy (Jan 7, 2019)

That output jack placement.


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## gunshow86de (Jan 7, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Wow, that cutout looks super half-assed.



The whole thing looks half-assed, like it was the initial prototype. The inevitable Grote ebay copies will look better.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 7, 2019)

People shit on some of the modern headless guitars as "defeating the whole purpose" by having bodies that aren't also shrunk down to the smallest possible size, even though most of these guitars only make the bodies wider so they look more proportionate on a human person and it keeps the guitar just as portable since the length is the same. While i disagree with the sentiment...this has the wider body but then also adds what looks like 2-3" after the end of the bridge tuners, making the body much longer than most other headless guitars on the market. So, it's still shorter by the length of a headstock, but seems to then also lose any body-shortening advantage. That said, there are still some folks who thing that these modern "larger" headless guitars still look too small on them, so this might be right up their alley.

I am also on the side of thinking that this is a prototype, as the control cavity cover is surface mount, the binding looks like it's covered in file/rasp marks. Definitely not a fan of the 3 different pickup covers, either.


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## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> Is the "and double ball end strings for toolless string changes" a concern for anyone? I'm hoping that's optional, because double-ball string availability is minimal (at best) and is a limitation for scale length and string count.



Yes, double ball is a superior system. Unfortunately, only for those of us at 25.5 in basic set gauges.

There's like 3 of us.

It's also why I prefer the j custom headpieces.


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## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2019)

Funny, with more headless designs available than ever I'd still take a Klein built to my specs or a Canton.


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## ThtOthrPrsn (Jan 7, 2019)

I like it except for that lower cutout, it doesn't "flow" or work with the body like a lot of the other headless guitars out there do. It doesn't feel like it was designed as a headless guitar, if that makes sense?


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 7, 2019)

That’s a nope from me


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## Defyantly (Jan 7, 2019)

ThtOthrPrsn said:


> I like it except for that lower cutout, it doesn't "flow" or work with the body like a lot of the other headless guitars out there do. It doesn't feel like it was designed as a headless guitar, if that makes sense?


 I agree with this sentiment. It looks like they took a blackmachine and said how could we make this a headless without changing anything else about it. I'm a fan of the wood choices of the body but the entire execution is poor. So I hope that this is a REALLY rough prototype.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 7, 2019)

also shame on him for using madagascar rosewood, that stuff is highly endangered compared to other dalbergias.


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## xzacx (Jan 7, 2019)

The double ball ends are pretty much the only thing that's appealing about this to me. This is not a very elegant take on a headless IMO. RBM2 was the first thing I thought when I saw it, but this isn't nearly as cool.


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## xwmucradiox (Jan 7, 2019)

Double ball end is a questionable idea in 2018 and for his market specifically. Dramatically limits string choices. The clamp-style headpieces that take standard strings are what brought headless back to viability in the market. Using double ball end strings could lead to guitars essentially being bricked because of lack of string availability. Look at the Floyd Rose Speedloader guitars. They stopped making the strings so once they're gone the guitars are unusable without mods.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jan 7, 2019)

This ones been in the works for a while, it had 2 pickups originally, he wanted this guitar voiced differently to the B2 so adding another middle humbucked was another step. You can order these now from Doug, he's eager to get building again but you will pay a LOT. The headstock is one of the defining BM parts so it's a bit odd to see a headless. 

Cool to finally see a floyd on one of his guitars.


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## Xaios (Jan 7, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> also shame on him for using madagascar rosewood, that stuff is highly endangered compared to other dalbergias.


In all fairness, who knows how long he's had his stockpile. These could be cuts of wood that he's had on hand for 10+ years for all we know.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 7, 2019)

gunshow86de said:


> The whole thing looks half-assed, like it was the initial prototype. The inevitable Grote ebay copies will look better.


grote literally makes headless like this already lol


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## nyxzz (Jan 7, 2019)

am i insane or does that block look like it makes it impossible to actually use the trem


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 7, 2019)

Xaios said:


> In all fairness, who knows how long he's had his stockpile. These could be cuts of wood that he's had on hand for 10+ years for all we know.


possibly, but I just feel strongly that people shouldn't be using woods like madagascar rosewood or bois de rose at all (partially because of their highly vulnerable status, but also because there's plenty of other equally viable wood choices that look just as good).


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## spudmunkey (Jan 7, 2019)

nyxzz said:


> am i insane or does that block look like it makes it impossible to actually use the trem



What, you've never set up a trem to be pull-up-only?


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## Electric Wizard (Jan 7, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> Is the "and double ball end strings for toolless string changes" a concern for anyone? I'm hoping that's optional, because double-ball string availability is minimal (at best) and is a limitation for scale length and string count.





xwmucradiox said:


> Double ball end is a questionable idea in 2018 and for his market specifically. Dramatically limits string choices.



I mean it's easier to get double ball strings than a blackmachine in the first place so this doesn't seem like a real issue.


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## feraledge (Jan 7, 2019)




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## angl2k (Jan 7, 2019)

wow it looks like a beginner luthier's project guitar


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## gunshow86de (Jan 7, 2019)

nyxzz said:


> am i insane or does that block look like it makes it impossible to actually use the trem



It's more of a wiggle bar than a whammy bar.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jan 7, 2019)

So he remade the Reb Beach? If Doug wants to bring back more old Ibanez designs maybe he could make a 540 Pii but, you know, maybe not price it at like 10K.


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## ikarus (Jan 7, 2019)

angl2k said:


> wow it looks like a beginner luthier's project guitar



Yeah it looks like someone "converted" his B2 into a headless.


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## ThtOthrPrsn (Jan 7, 2019)

ikarus said:


> Yeah it looks like someone "converted" his B2 into a headless.


Couldn't agree more! Just need a clickbait youtube title like "We did WHAT to our Blackmachine?!?!"


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## technomancer (Jan 7, 2019)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> So he remade the Reb Beach? If Doug wants to bring back more old Ibanez designs maybe he could make a 540 Pii but, you know, maybe not price it at like 10K.



Reb's guitars had better contours around the trem. This looks like somebody had a Blackmachine and decided to take a saw to it to make it headless...


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## Albake21 (Jan 7, 2019)

So there are two spots available for March 2019... can't wait to see these sell for $20k


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## cip 123 (Jan 7, 2019)

Wow, he really did the bare minimum to design a headless.


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## Dyingsea (Jan 7, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> Wow, he really did the bare minimum to design a headless.



No kidding like "welp might as well jump on the bandwagon too and make my ridiculous hype $$$$ with a headless"


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## MikeNeal (Jan 7, 2019)

Alot of blackmachines look half assed. But this one takes the cake. 

Why the hell isn't the control cavity cover recessed into the body.


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## cip 123 (Jan 7, 2019)

Dyingsea said:


> No kidding like "welp might as well jump on the bandwagon too and make my ridiculous hype $$$$ with a headless"


He's a bit late considering the bandwagon came, and every stellar designer/builder jumped on. And it seems at least here the hype for a BM in general has died down considerably.


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## crackout (Jan 7, 2019)

I hate it. Mostly because I hate trems, cut-off headless designs, double ball end strings, middle pickups and this body cut out.


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## possumkiller (Jan 7, 2019)

Was the half assed minimal effort look not part of the blackmachine charm to begin with? They always looked like a thicker body template with a small 45degree bevel around the entire back edge. Neck held on with drywall screws. Headstock designed by taking a Parker cutout from a random mismatched design. Literally everything about a blackmachine screams "some yogurt packing factory worker built this in his garage over a weekend".


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## Velokki (Jan 7, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> This ones been in the works for a while, it had 2 pickups originally, he wanted this guitar voiced differently to the B2 so adding another middle humbucked was another step. You can order these now from Doug, he's eager to get building again but you will pay a LOT. The headstock is one of the defining BM parts so it's a bit odd to see a headless.
> 
> Cool to finally see a floyd on one of his guitars.


It's actually a T4M headless trem, with heavy modifications done by Doug.

To be honest, not a huge fan of the design as a whole.

I can also confirm that the price for one is 10K+£.

I think it's an insane price for what that guitar is. Yeah yeah, haven't played one, but over 10K£. That's like 11,5K in €uros!


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## Albake21 (Jan 7, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> He's a bit late considering the bandwagon came, and every stellar designer/builder jumped on. And it seems at least here the hype for a BM in general has died down considerably.


Well there can't be any hype if you haven't been able to get one the past 5 years. If Doug was smart he would had either offered more orders this whole time, or gotten someone to manufacture his idea. Instead he let other companies do it and bathe in the money they are getting.


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## cip 123 (Jan 7, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Well there can't be any hype if you haven't been able to get one the past 5 years. If Doug was smart he would had either offered more orders this whole time, or gotten someone to manufacture his idea. Instead he let other companies do it and bathe in the money they are getting.


He's actually just been working up his lawsuit for the past 5 years.


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 7, 2019)

Double ball end strings for the 


But on the other hand, if you can afford this you can probably afford to get custom strings made...


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## Albake21 (Jan 7, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> He's actually just been working up his lawsuit for the past 5 years.


Oh damn, really? Where did you hear that from?


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

That thing is gross. Outside of the fancy wood Agile's headless guitars are more attractive than that. Double ball end strings? Who is this designed for?


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## narad (Jan 7, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> possibly, but I just feel strongly that people shouldn't be using woods like madagascar rosewood or bois de rose at all (partially because of their highly vulnerable status, but also because there's plenty of other equally viable wood choices that look just as good).



People still use mammoth bone nuts, and they haven't existed for thousands of years. Like you buy a bunch of wood, decades later the species is endangered and protected, and you're supposed to just burn it instead of putting it to actual use, or face internet criticism? Does not compute.


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## feraledge (Jan 7, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> So there are two spots available for March 2019... can't wait to see these sell for $20k


Wait and see what kind of Engage-ment these get.


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## cip 123 (Jan 7, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Oh damn, really? Where did you hear that from?


Just a joke 

It wouldn't take 5 years when Ormsby built an entire brand off of naming their guitars after dougs.


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## Albake21 (Jan 7, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> Just a joke


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## lurè (Jan 7, 2019)

Need a pair of custom square thighs to appreciate the "e(r)gonomic" shape.

Also wtf that jack placement


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 7, 2019)

narad said:


> People still use mammoth bone nuts, and they haven't existed for thousands of years. Like you buy a bunch of wood, decades later the species is endangered and protected, and you're supposed to just burn it instead of putting it to actual use, or face internet criticism? Does not compute.


mammoth bone is just bone though, the only thing that gives it cache is the fact that they're extinct. It's like Bog Oak, it's only kind of cool because it's ancient. 
*If* the wood was actually ethically harvested (ie legally) then I have no problems with people using it . The main problem is the rampant illegal harvesting of those species over the last 30-50 years and the fact that it's very difficult to know if the wood you buy was actually ethically harvested or not. This isn't like the coffee industry where people advertise lumber as free trade/ethically harvested.


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## xwmucradiox (Jan 7, 2019)

MikeNeal said:


> Alot of blackmachines look half assed. But this one takes the cake.
> 
> Why the hell isn't the control cavity cover recessed into the body.



I dont know the thickness of this guitar but on the B2 I owned the body wasn't thick enough to fit a switch and have a recessed electronics cover.


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## cip 123 (Jan 7, 2019)

Everyone see that little scoop on the lower horn right at the fretboard?

Why? Why is that there?


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## A-Branger (Jan 7, 2019)

I get the minimalistic design, and trying to build something around the BM platform. But thats as minimalistic as it gets. Like if he didnt even wanted to modify his templates for it and just used the neck pocket template for access the tunners or something. Just doesnt flow

and I cant deal with having the top bigger than the binding  either have the top same size as the biding (so it flows for the bevel/no-binding part of it), or just dont have any binding so you can have any size top



cip 123 said:


> Everyone see that little scoop on the lower horn right at the fretboard?
> 
> Why? Why is that there?



duh... for fret access, you know, ergonomics


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## Demiurge (Jan 7, 2019)

It's sloppy and unrefined, yet gaudy at the same time. Woof.


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## StevenC (Jan 7, 2019)

For all the "B2 with a chunk lobbed off" comments, it sure is a weird shape compared to a B2.

Also, this is a terrific time to buy a blackmachine, because with the terrible state of the pound, £10k is only like $10k or €10k.


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## narad (Jan 7, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Also, this is a terrific time to buy a blackmachine, because with the terrible state of the pound, £10k is only like $10k or €10k.



Call me when £10k is like ¥10k.


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## MikeNeal (Jan 7, 2019)

xwmucradiox said:


> I dont know the thickness of this guitar but on the B2 I owned the body wasn't thick enough to fit a switch and have a recessed electronics cover.



shrug. the guitars i build are as thin, or thinner then a blackmachine, and i have no problem recessing my control cavity covers.

i just find some of his design choices questionable is all. I'm sure they are excellent guitars and i'd love to play one. I dont think i would ever own one though, the little nitpicky things would kill me.


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## StevenC (Jan 7, 2019)

narad said:


> Call me when £10k is like ¥10k.


You know, I was contemplating emigration.


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## cip 123 (Jan 7, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Also, this is a terrific time to buy a blackmachine, because with the terrible state of the pound, £10k is only like $10k or €10k.



£10K = $12K

Wait a few months Brexit still hasn't hit yet.


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## Andromalia (Jan 7, 2019)

cwhitey2 said:


> Double ball end strings for the
> 
> 
> But on the other hand, if you can afford this you can probably afford to get custom strings made...



I don't think availability will be a problem for the 10 people who buy one of those every year.



> Call me when £10k is like ¥10k.



Joke aside, when the pound plunged 10 years ago UK websites charged different prices for foreigners. (in blatant disregard of EU regulations, I might also add)


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## Xaios (Jan 7, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> I don't think availability will be a problem for the 10 people who buy one of those every year.


What would be hilarious if Doug recognized that these would get gobbled up by flippers, so he decided to purposefully make a guitar that would be really hard to move to anyone that actually planned on playing it.


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## Jeff (Jan 7, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> People shit on some of the modern headless guitars as "defeating the whole purpose" by having bodies that aren't also shrunk down to the smallest possible size, even though most of these guitars only make the bodies wider so they look more proportionate on a human person and it keeps the guitar just as portable since the length is the same. While i disagree with the sentiment...this has the wider body but then also adds what looks like 2-3" after the end of the bridge tuners, making the body much longer than most other headless guitars on the market. So, it's still shorter by the length of a headstock, but seems to then also lose any body-shortening advantage. That said, there are still some folks who thing that these modern "larger" headless guitars still look too small on them, so this might be right up their alley.
> 
> I am also on the side of thinking that this is a prototype, as the control cavity cover is surface mount, the binding looks like it's covered in file/rasp marks. Definitely not a fan of the 3 different pickup covers, either.



Could be a prototype. Shouldn’t be on his website yet if it is though, IMHO. 

To me, the Osiris is WAY better looking.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 7, 2019)

StevenC said:


> For all the "B2 with a chunk lobbed off" comments, it sure is a weird shape compared to a B2.
> 
> Also, this is a terrific time to buy a blackmachine, because with the terrible state of the pound, £10k is only like $10k or €10k.



If the cutout wasn't so awful (add a slight angle or something god dammit) I would actually love this.


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## possumkiller (Jan 8, 2019)

StevenC said:


> For all the "B2 with a chunk lobbed off" comments, it sure is a weird shape compared to a B2.



The upper horn is slightly different. Otherwise it's a B2 with a square cut out the back. Which is fine with me. The headstock was always the fugliest thing on his guitars.


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## Miek (Jan 8, 2019)

I like it . but I'm a mark for bms


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## ixlramp (Jan 8, 2019)

Repeats the mistake Strandberg and all the many copies do with the output jack going straight into your leg when playing in classical position, a standard output jack position would have been better, to have the cable between your thighs.
Amazing how many luthiers are just copying without thinking, but then that's normal.
Now a point rests on your right thigh in classical position.

"The trem has a massive handmade sustain block to improve the attack and overtones, a bar that has no slack, and double ball end strings for toolless string changes."
The trem has double ball end strings, huh?
Looking at the photo it looks like it has string clamps that allow the use of single ball end strings, i can't see any slots for using double ball end strings.
Very ugly cutout, zero design effort or inspiration.


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## sakeido (Jan 8, 2019)

Classical position is for nerds and blackmachines are strictly for real rock stars, like those guys who put out that horrendous djent nu metal album last year. Sikth I think they're called 

Pretty ugly guitar overall. Looks totally phoned in. Too bad


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## eugeneelgr (Jan 8, 2019)

ixlramp said:


> Repeats the mistake Strandberg and all the many copies do with the output jack going straight into your leg when playing in classical position, a standard output jack position would have been better, to have the cable between your thighs.
> Amazing how many luthiers are just copying without thinking, but then that's normal.
> Now a point rests on your right thigh in classical position.



As the owner of a strandberg and an honest critic of its shortcomings, I can tell you the output jack location on a strandberg is *great. *Does not interfere or get in the way of your legs, and frankly, neither does this blackmachine one.


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## Velokki (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm not a fan of the design that I'd be all over it, but people seem to be way overly harsh though. Like they come to this thread TO hate.

People say the execution is half-assed, but I can't see any of that? Like, where? I think it's just the wood choice, that makes it look like it's rotten and splintered.


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## cip 123 (Jan 9, 2019)

Velokki said:


> I'm not a fan of the design that I'd be all over it, but people seem to be way overly harsh though. Like they come to this thread TO hate.
> 
> People say the execution is half-assed, but I can't see any of that? Like, where? I think it's just the wood choice, that makes it look like it's rotten and splintered.




It suffers from the usual top being thicker than the binding.

The overall design is pretty minimal but in my opinion not in a good way, like he went "headless? Oh yea just let the ass fall out". It looks like an ibanez voyager but even ibanez added some Jeff Bevels in there to make it look a hit better. 

The binding is questionable to me. Why does it not go right round in the cut out St the back? It started going a little and stopped? Also that little scoop in the lower horn? From what I've been reading more and more about blackmachines, I'd say he made a mistake there and has tried to cover it. And it looks obvious either that or... He just decided to add a tiny scoop?

Backplate isn't recessed. Hey lots of manufacturers don't do this on some guitars. But this is a BM which will easily fetch 5K and above, that'd annoy me. A post a page back states that the body is too thin to have a recessed backplate, due to the switch being too big. That's just a stupid design choice imo.

Double ball end strings? There is plenty of headless hardware out there that allows for regular strings that are easier to acquire.

You say it looks rotten and splintered, imagine paying 5K for this? 10K? I'd critique it a hell of a lot more if I was paying that.

I honestly can't sit here and say "that's the best way to design a headless blackmachine" I love headless guitars, but THAT? Is a half assed design. Especially for the price you'll pay.


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## Wolfhorsky (Jan 9, 2019)

Velokki said:


> I'm not a fan of the design that I'd be all over it, but people seem to be way overly harsh though. Like they come to this thread TO hate.
> 
> People say the execution is half-assed, but I can't see any of that? Like, where? I think it's just the wood choice, that makes it look like it's rotten and splintered.


It is so easy to understand: this particular guitar design looks like it is not well thought enough, yet its price is very high. 
And we are poor people that can’t afford it, thus we’re hatin’. ;-)


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## Velokki (Jan 9, 2019)

Yeah, fair enough. Good points from both.

I agree especially on the pricing. No guitar is that great to justify a pricetag of over 10K £.
Or it'd have to be ultra, ultra well thought out and executed, with some mystic scarcity brand appeal or artist involvement.


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## prlgmnr (Jan 9, 2019)

Velokki said:


> I'm not a fan of the design that I'd be all over it, but people seem to be way overly harsh though. Like they come to this thread TO hate.


We all came to this thread wanting to love, but there are limits.


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## Sogradde (Jan 9, 2019)

It's a headless for the sake of being headless, not because he had ergonomics and/or a smaller footprint in mind (unless the 2" bevel on the lower horn is supposed to be his improvement on ergonomics, who knows...).
That's as low of an effort as possible. meh/10


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## spudmunkey (Jan 9, 2019)

ixlramp said:


> Repeats the mistake Strandberg and all the many copies do with the output jack going straight into your leg when playing in classical position, a standard output jack position would have been better, to have the cable between your thighs.
> Amazing how many luthiers are just copying without thinking, but then that's normal.
> Now a point rests on your right thigh in classical position.



Is this specific cut out, though, really an issue with classical position? It looks like the cut out itself is barely any wider than the humbucker pickup. Would your leg actually be able to impede into this area so far as to bump into the output Jack?


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## possumkiller (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm really not sure what people were expecting. I saw the thread title and already knew what I would be looking at. I saw the picture and thought to myself, "Yeap, that's a headless black machine". If people are looking at black machine like it is (or was) some kind of innovative design breakthrough guitar of the future, they are going to be disappointed. Black machine always was a minimalist guitar. Minimal build process. Minimal options. Minimal effort in design. It's basically a headless B2. Unless you want to count the slightly varied outline of a few curves of the body lines where he probably just free-handed it instead of using a template.


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## bracky (Jan 9, 2019)

It looks homemade. I wouldn’t pay $999.


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## crackout (Jan 9, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> It suffers from the usual top being thicker than the binding.
> Backplate isn't recessed. Hey lots of manufacturers don't do this on some guitars. But this is a BM which will easily fetch 5K and above, that'd annoy me. A post a page back states that the body is too thin to have a recessed backplate, due to the switch being too big. That's just a stupid design choice imo.



On my BM tribute guitars, I also went for the non-recessed style and what can I say, it's fine.
There is absolutely no disadvantage in comfort having covers like this. You don't realize it.
If you build guitars yourself you know the hassle of fitting these covers into the recess properly (granted, there are more complicated shape to fit). One problem less, no fumbling.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm sure it's "fine". My issue with this specific guitar is that the plate is wood, and has flat/square edges. If the edges had a chamfer, I odn't think it would bother me as much as it does. And with templates, repeatibility and accuracy shouldn't be an issue with the route or the plate. With a shape this simple, a CNC isn't required. Just a template, and a templating router bit.

On some guitars, the control cavity is recessed, but the trem cavity is surface mount, because there needed to be clearance for the trem block, and the only way to recess the cover and have the trem block not hit it would be an even more custom block, a plate with a cutaway, or make the whole body that much thicker. Could this be so thin as to not have room behind the control pots that the plate needs to be mounted on the surface for clearance? Body thickness is the whole reason the Ibanez S has that ugly plastic blob around the pickup selector blade switch...the body isn't thick enough there to be able to fit the blade switch without letting it poke through the top.


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## Sogradde (Jan 9, 2019)

possumkiller said:


> I'm really not sure what people were expecting. I saw the thread title and already knew what I would be looking at. I saw the picture and thought to myself, "Yeap, that's a headless black machine". If people are looking at black machine like it is (or was) some kind of innovative design breakthrough guitar of the future, they are going to be disappointed. Black machine always was a minimalist guitar. Minimal build process. Minimal options. Minimal effort in design. It's basically a headless B2. Unless you want to count the slightly varied outline of a few curves of the body lines where he probably just free-handed it instead of using a template.


Tbh, my idea of a "minimalist headless design" is this, not a regular guitar someone dropped into a bandsaw:


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## xzacx (Jan 9, 2019)

crackout said:


> On my BM tribute guitars, I also went for the non-recessed style and what can I say, it's fine.
> There is absolutely no disadvantage in comfort having covers like this. You don't realize it.
> If you build guitars yourself you know the hassle of fitting these covers into the recess properly (granted, there are more complicated shape to fit). One problem less, no fumbling.



I think the issue is (at least to me) that there's just so little refinement for the prices these will sell for—it's all hype. In theory, "the hassle of fitting those covers" should be part of what people are paying for on guitars that are supposed to be at the level a Blackmachine is held at.

That's something that's always been my issue with Blackmachines. When you look at guitars that sell in the same price range, like a Yaron or Gustavsson, there is substantially more labor involved. From having owned and played multiple examples of both, there's a lot to appreciate in terms of craftsmanship that just doesn't exist on a Blackmachine, even if a Blackmachine is built as perfectly as it can be built. Even Strandbergs, which have relatively simple construction/finishing, have proprietary hardware and design concepts.

Great for Doug if he can sell them for those prices. If people love the design and are willing to pay for it, cool for them too—I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying that not all $10k guitars are $10k for the same reasons. For me personally, if I'm paying that much, it's because of the elegant/cool/interesting way these designs are pulled off, not because they did it the easy way and "it's fine" like that.


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## crackout (Jan 9, 2019)

xzacx said:


> I think the issue is (at least to me) that there's just so little refinement for the prices these will sell for—it's all hype. In theory, "the hassle of fitting those covers" should be part of what people are paying for on guitars that are supposed to be at the level a Blackmachine is held at.
> 
> That's something that's always been my issue with Blackmachines. When you look at guitars that sell in the same price range, like a Yaron or Gustavsson, there is substantially more labor involved. From having owned and played multiple examples of both, there's a lot to appreciate in terms of craftsmanship that just doesn't exist on a Blackmachine, even if a Blackmachine is built as perfectly as it can be built. Even Strandbergs, which have relatively simple construction/finishing, have proprietary hardware and design concepts.



You are absolutely right from this point of view. I was arguing from the bare technical side.


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## Opion (Jan 9, 2019)

People on this forum sure are spoiled nowadays. 

“A headless for the sake of being headless”

“It looks homemade”

“They didn’t even try to be ergonomic or cutting edge”


My 2 cents is purely this: Doug inspired a wave of guitar builders to copy his designs back when his guitars were being touted as Holy Grails on this forum nearly 10 years ago...and a LOT has changed since then. Everyone in this thread that is complaining has every right to do so. However, that doesn’t mean that Doug absolutely HAS to compete with these new trends. In my opinion, that is what makes his guitars special and always has been his agenda. He’s almost never advertised for his company and yet he still has no problems selling these guitars. Personally, I can’t imagine Doug ever wanting to compete with the trends of the metal guitar scene of today- this is the closest he’s gotten in recent years to it. 

Maybe I’m beating a dead horse, because I don’t really play metal too much any more and don’t care for a lot of these kinds of guitars, but y’all should be grateful we have as many options as we do now. 

I’ve never tried one or have any desire to try one. But it sure has been interesting watching the trends on this forum come and go, and now that everyone has seen it all, these guitars are somehow “homemade looking”? That is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Can’t wait to see these people’s homemade CopyMachine builds going for $999 on Reverb.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 9, 2019)

The "homemade" looking doesn't come from it following trends or not. It's things that look...unfinished.

The trem block with no dive travel (and how it's a square-cornered block in a tight-fitting route with radiused corners)
To some (including myself), the surface-mounted control cover plate that looks like an after-thought.
The three different mis-matched pickup covers/bobbins/pole pieces
To some, the cutout looks like it was done with as much thought as the Google Pixel 3 notch.
How the top wood looks thicker than the binding, making it look like someone tucked their shirt into a belt, but outside of their pants.
The binding that looks like it has rasp marks on it
The three different finishes of hardware (the trem is gold and black, which is fine, but then the trem arm doesn't look like it matches the gold)
The switch top looks something like rose gold plastic. It may not be but that's what it looks like.
On it's own it would be fine, but along with everything else, the specific wood used for the body looks like douglas fir plywood (I know it isn't, but it just goes along with the theme).


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 9, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> The "homemade" looking doesn't come from it following trends or not. It's things that look...unfinished.
> 
> The trem block with no dive travel (and how it's a square-cornered block in a tight-fitting route with radiused corners)
> To some (including myself), the surface-mounted control cover plate that looks like an after-thought.
> ...


few things:
1. the cavity cover not being recessed is his schtick (though i also dislike it)
2. the binding is naturally textured like that, see crackout's latest build or go look at binding types. it's usually called grained or textured ivoroid binding
otherwise i agree with you.


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## cip 123 (Jan 9, 2019)

crackout said:


> On my BM tribute guitars, I also went for the non-recessed style and what can I say, it's fine.
> There is absolutely no disadvantage in comfort having covers like this. You don't realize it.
> If you build guitars yourself you know the hassle of fitting these covers into the recess properly (granted, there are more complicated shape to fit). One problem less, no fumbling.


"Fine" is what I expect of sub £500 guitars not £5000+ guitars. Plenty of builders do recessed plates, in fact plenty of builders in this bracket do grain matched plates. No matter the technical ability of the builder going "Meh I really don't want to do all this work" Isn't the attitude I want from a guy I'm giving thousands of pounds.



Opion said:


> People on this forum sure are spoiled nowadays.


Maybe because it's fairly easy, on a guitar forum, to find custom built guitars that are designed and executed well?



Opion said:


> I’ve never tried one or have any desire to try one. But it sure has been interesting watching the trends on this forum come and go, and now that everyone has seen it all, these guitars are somehow “homemade looking”? That is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Can’t wait to see these people’s homemade CopyMachine builds going for $999 on Reverb.



I've seen builds on here that I'd happily pay for unlike most blackmachines I've seen. They may well sound and play amazingly, but it's not hard to take Dougs design and just do a better version of it. You could sit down for 10 minutes and make any number of better design changes to his originals. 











OH a top that's not thicker than the binding?





Flush covers? 

Homemade btw, - http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/just-completed-blackmachine-b7-clone-build.327078/


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## narad (Jan 9, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> I've seen builds on here that I'd happily pay for unlike most blackmachines I've seen. They may well sound and play amazingly, but it's not hard to take Dougs design and just do a better version of it. You could sit down for 10 minutes and make any number of better design changes to his originals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn, both of this guy's builds are super nice. It's like all I want, and nothing I don't. No blue anodized mismatched hardware or translucent tele control cover.


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## cip 123 (Jan 9, 2019)

narad said:


> Damn, both of this guy's builds are super nice. It's like all I want, and nothing I don't. No blue anodized mismatched hardware or translucent tele control cover.


And isn't that like the dudes 3rd build?


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## narad (Jan 9, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> And isn't that like the dudes 3rd build?



First I remember seeing it, but people forget that it's not like Doug had a long history of building quality instruments to begin with.


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## bracky (Jan 10, 2019)

Opion said:


> People on this forum sure are spoiled nowadays.
> 
> “A headless for the sake of being headless”
> 
> ...




Metal is a way of life. Not a trend. \m/


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jan 10, 2019)

Opion said:


> I’ve never tried one or have any desire to try one. But it sure has been interesting watching the trends on this forum come and go, and now that everyone has seen it all, these guitars are somehow “homemade looking”? That is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Can’t wait to see these people’s homemade CopyMachine builds going for $999 on Reverb.



Honestly, given some of the stuff I've seen you crazy bastards do, I'd take "homemade looking" to be something of a compliment in most cases. We've had TONS off SSOers build Blackmachine replicas (including some that posted in this thread) that came out so damn good I'd buy them over the real deal, and I am pretty confident that I'm one of the biggest Blackmachine fanbois on this board. Not to mention the other builds; Pondman I guarantee can get thousands for the crazy stuff he puts together.
--

I do think everyone is being overly harsh on this though; and I do get the vibe that a lot of people came into this thread already predisposed to disliking whatever it was- bagging on Blackmachines has been "in" for a couple years now. That said, personally, I'm not a fan, but I despise headless guitars anyway, so what does my opinion matter?

I'm not going to label it low-effort though. Doug's pretty proud of this thing; said he spent most of last year working on prototyping and getting it the way he wanted, he sounded really excited about it when I spoke with him. Sure, it looks like a cross between a voyager and a B2, and that isn't my cup of tea (and likely yours either), but I'm not going to be so bold as to make the claim that he phoned it in. Doug does what he wants; if it looks like this it's because he wanted it to. He doesn't really have a reason to try and ride hype...if he wanted an influx of attention, all he had to do was open a new B2 run.


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## StevenC (Jan 10, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> Flush covers?


Fair enough if you don't like the non-flush cover, but I find this picture far more offensive. Those screws are sitting way above everything else. If you're going to bother recessing some things, why aren't you recessing everything?

Like with the non-recessed cover, Doug specified a certain body thickness and couldn't recess the cover because he didn't have a switch that would fit or whatever. Then he decides to do the metal back plate to cover the jack and put the logo, but there's no point in recessing the screws to sit flush, so he chooses an allen screw. Or whatever order those things happened in. These things then become part of the brand, so he doesn't change them when a lower profile switch becomes available, and even then what's the point because the string ferrules are sitting up, too.

But then this build kinda misses the idea. None of those things functionally matter, but there's a consistency in not recessing anything.

Also, blackmachines with thin ebony tops also have tops which are thinner than the binding, but the thicker tops are thicker than the binding.


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## bracky (Jan 10, 2019)

It is odd the guy countersunk the cover but not the screws.


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## Demiurge (Jan 10, 2019)

It's to give your belt buckle guitar-rash.


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## narad (Jan 10, 2019)

StevenC said:


> These things then become part of the brand, so he doesn't change them when a lower profile switch becomes available, and even then what's the point because the string ferrules are sitting up, too.



I thought Kiesel had the stranglehold on branding the idea of doing things the wrong way?


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## Miek (Jan 10, 2019)

raising my hands like Goku so everyone can give me their energy to get a b2


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## possumkiller (Jan 11, 2019)

bracky said:


> It is odd the guy countersunk the cover but not the screws.


With those screws you would need the plate to be thicker than the depth of the screw heads otherwise you just drill a hole through the plate and the screw head no longer holds it in place. Basically the wrong type of screws were used. They do make Allen head screws with angled heads like other screws though.


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## narad (Jan 11, 2019)

bracky said:


> It is odd the guy countersunk the cover but not the screws.



Not sure you can countersink a giant metal rectangle.


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## bracky (Jan 11, 2019)

I guess I inferred in my statement that he would be using countersunk screws. It’s pure laziness when there is an exposed screw head on the back plate.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 11, 2019)

narad said:


> Not sure you can countersink a giant metal rectangle.



Ok, so "qountersink" for the screws, and "recessed" for the plate.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 11, 2019)

Wasn't the cool thing about Blackmachines the headstocks? Now they've removed them?


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## A-Branger (Jan 11, 2019)

I would say, I rather flush screws but I do see those Hex screws as an aesthetic choice. They go well with a metal backplate for a "roughed look". Might not be practical and the screws would give you a rash back, but they do serve a purpose and its "to look good"

now, after seeing photos of BlackMachines back, you can tell that yes, Doug knows how to recess a backplate. So this new model having a non-recessed one is purely an aesthetic choice..... I get the "but the switch tip is bigger".... maybe when he started?, there should be ones available now that they arent that big?... there shouldnt be a reason why not to fix that problem (IF that was even the issue to start with) 

so yeh, that top mounted back plate is an aesthetic choice he made, (same with the little tinny scoop on the lower horn....) just not sure if it was the right choice to do (IMO)


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## Velokki (May 25, 2021)

Any of these ready yet, btw?


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## possumkiller (May 25, 2021)

Is there any pricing on these yet? Where do you put a deposit?


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## Lorcan Ward (May 25, 2021)

Velokki said:


> Any of these ready yet, btw?



He built 5 or 6 and then went back to just building B2s again.

Price is about 5 figures for the base models and goes up considerably with wood choices. You could put down a deposit if you get that far but it doesn’t mean you’ll even get a build in the future.


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## Lozek (May 25, 2021)

Opion said:


> However, that doesn’t mean that Doug absolutely HAS to compete with these new trends. In my opinion, that is what makes his guitars special and always has been his agenda. He’s almost never advertised for his company and yet he still has no problems selling these guitars. Personally, I can’t imagine Doug ever wanting to compete with the trends of the metal guitar scene of today- this is the closest he’s gotten in recent years to it.



Nail on the head. I've known Doug personally for 20 years, he's a ridiculously smart guy who loves building guitars and exploring ideas that interest him. He knew that he 'could' have commercialised when it all exploded (in fact he had a lot of offers to do so) but consciously chose to not grow into mass production other than the partnership with Jonathan at Feline because he trusts him (they worked together for years previous to Doug starting Blackmachine). There's enough enablers in our social group for him to find willing participants, he doesn't have to pay any attention to the Internet, which is a great position to be in for him.


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## drgordonfreeman (May 25, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Literally everything about a blackmachine screams "*some yogurt packing factory worker built this in his garage over a weekend*".



Best comment in this thread  And he's not wrong

I still laugh Blackmachines were ever a thing, I just didn't realize they were still around. Can they go away again?


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## Opion (May 25, 2021)

Lozek said:


> Nail on the head. I've known Doug personally for 20 years, he's a ridiculously smart guy who loves building guitars and exploring ideas that interest him. He knew that he 'could' have commercialised when it all exploded (in fact he had a lot of offers to do so) but consciously chose to not grow into mass production other than the partnership with Jonathan at Feline because he trusts him (they worked together for years previous to Doug starting Blackmachine). There's enough enablers in our social group for him to find willing participants, he doesn't have to pay any attention to the Internet, which is a great position to be in for him.



That's great to hear that he's retained his integrity after all these years. Not that there was ever any doubt, but I imagine it has had to be an interesting 10+ years for him building his guitars and watching his designs become iconic and damn-near legendary in the ERG scene. He's absolutely earned every bit of success he has and IMO, can do whatever the hell he wants in my book, he always seemed to be exactly as you describe here.

All that being said in regards to this necro bump - just visited the website and saw the pictures of the other headless models he built. I think they look great. I do wish he would've built a couple more, or at least experimented with fanned fret 7's and 8's.


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## TimSE (May 25, 2021)

Wtf I saw this the other day and thought someone did this to one/was a shitty copy or something. That thing fucking sucks


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## Marked Man (May 28, 2021)

cardinal said:


> lol at the sustain block.
> 
> I'm sure the guitars are very nice.



They should just mount a brass anvil in there!


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## Miek (Jul 1, 2022)

Realize this is a bit of the thread rez but the blackmachine site no longer loads, so I'm not sure if that really signals the end of an era or not, lol.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 1, 2022)

The site is a bit needless. It is rarely updated and he must have a list of customers ready to throw him money that he doesn’t need to advertise build slots anymore. He’s still building and made this a few months ago.


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## maliciousteve (Jul 1, 2022)

^Fugly


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## LostTheTone (Jul 1, 2022)

maliciousteve said:


> ^Fugly



No lies detected. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course, but that brown finish makes it look like a set of crushed velvet curtains.


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## pahulkster (Jul 1, 2022)

That thing looks like the ass of every person on 600lb life


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## Bodes (Jul 1, 2022)

Anyone else now thinking about the Mallrats scene where the dude is staring at a magic eye picture and a kid walks up and says "it's a sailboat" then the dude royally cracks the poos?


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## Musiscience (Jul 1, 2022)

Blackmachine is the most puzzling guitar brand IMO. With the hype they had going back in the day, it would have been easy to draw investors and turn it into a very lucrative brand with multiple ranges, imports, etc.. But instead he opted to try and keep a mystique around their builds and build from a list of “elite” customers who he deemed worthy. But to what end, street cred? 

And now this amateur level headless design years in the making? Why?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 1, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> Blackmachine is the most puzzling guitar brand IMO. With the hype they had going back in the day, it would have been easy to draw investors and turn it into a very lucrative brand with multiple ranges, imports, etc.. But instead he opted to try and keep a mystique around their builds and build from a list of “elite” customers who he deemed worthy. But to what end, street cred?
> 
> And now this amateur level headless design years in the making? Why?



Doug seemed like the kind of guy who just wanted to make some guitars for some friends and it sort of exploded out of control, and instead of growing rapidly and haphazardly and then burning in a marvelous flash of light, he sort of rejected it and just kept doing things on his own terms. 

Design wise, I think it's fairy clear the "B" and it's derivatives were something of a flash in the pan. He's not a master designer, he just sort of got one thing pretty much perfect. That's not a slight, most don't even get that.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 1, 2022)

There was people ready to take care of everything so Doug is wouldn’t have to do anything. For whatever reason he said no. Talking to one of his friends he doesn’t build that much and never did. Only a few months a year even back when the brand was popular. Funny that most of the mysticism was caused by genuinely not wanting to build. Every step he took to try and reduce demand like the B6 or closing the queue only drove it up.

I don’t like the headless but when the B2 is made with the right woods it’s still a killer looking guitar that has such a clean look that is very difficult to replicate.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 1, 2022)

Lorcan Ward said:


> There was people ready to take care of everything so Doug is wouldn’t have to do anything. For whatever reason he said no. Talking to one of his friends he doesn’t build that much and never did. Only a few months a year even back when the brand was popular. Funny that most of the mysticism was caused by genuinely not wanting to build. Every step he took to try and reduce demand like the B6 or closing the queue only drove it up.
> 
> I don’t like the headless but when the B2 is made with the right woods it’s still a killer looking guitar that has such a clean look that is very difficult to replicate.



Not everyone wants the guts and glory. 

I can respect that.


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## LostTheTone (Jul 1, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Doug seemed like the kind of guy who just wanted to make some guitars for some friends and it sort of exploded out of control, and instead of growing rapidly and haphazardly and then burning in a marvelous flash of light, he sort of rejected it and just kept doing things on his own terms.
> 
> Design wise, I think it's fairy clear the "B" and it's derivatives were something of a flash in the pan. He's not a master designer, he just sort of got one thing pretty much perfect. That's not a slight, most don't even get that.



I can certainly respect someone who wants to do their own thing or decides that the obvious thing isn't for them.

Having said that, there is a used B2 up on reverb right now for 30 grand. And you know it looks nice. But it's superstrat, and whatever else it might be, it's not obviously special. 

That's really the weird thing to me. Okay sure Doug didn't want to become a big corporate affair, fair enough. But he also didn't become just a straight up bespoke builder either. Maybe some of that was accidental and I don't hold it against him as a person that some guitar hipsters pay so much for his work, but it's still a weird place to be. 

I'm just saying, the way @pondman works the wood is a thing of beauty and I would kill to get my hands on one of his creations, but I wouldn't pay no 30k for one.


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## narad (Jul 1, 2022)

Blame all the dorks propping them up and writing pamphlets as to why they're worth XX thousands of dollars. Sure wasn't Doug doing that.


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## sleewell (Jul 1, 2022)

i could not get the website to load


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 1, 2022)

narad said:


> Blame all the dorks propping them up and writing pamphlets as to why they're worth XX thousands of dollars. Sure wasn't Doug doing that.



This.

From what I remember of Doug's pricing it wasn't even close to what certain people post them for on the internet. 

Let's also not be coy, it's a small club of like a dozen, mostly shady as shit, guys doing it.


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## bostjan (Jul 1, 2022)

sleewell said:


> i could not get the website to load


Probably because the link is several years old.

Don't get too interested. Only a few of these were made, sold new for $12k and up, and were probably all bought by scalpers who intended to sell them for twice as much.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 1, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> This.
> 
> From what I remember of Doug's pricing it wasn't even close to what certain people post them for on the internet.
> 
> Let's also not be coy, it's a small club of like a dozen, mostly shady as shit, guys doing it.



They started off about £1500-1800. Then once he got popular about £2300 for a B2. One of the first auction builds went for £4000 while second hand B2s had been at that price for about 2 years. Then the shills got in and pushed the price to five figures. Someone got a B2 for a lower price from him and flipped it for about £18k profit. Last time I talked to someone it was about £7-10K for a basic build now and there is no shortage of people prepared to pay it. 

This is info you can find on Facebook and various forums if anyone is wondering. The good second hand B2s still go for a lot but the ones on reverb have been there a long time. I’d be curious to see what kind of price a 7 or 8 would still make.


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## dmlinger (Jul 1, 2022)

Website works on my end. Doug has a B1 tele-style up for sale from his early years. 






blackmachine - Home Page


The home of Blackmachine. Come in and find out what makes these unique handmade guitars so desirable.



blackmachine.net


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## maliciousteve (Jul 2, 2022)

Lorcan Ward said:


> They started off about £1500-1800. Then once he got popular about £2300 for a B2. One of the first auction builds went for £4000 while second hand B2s had been at that price for about 2 years. Then the shills got in and pushed the price to five figures. Someone got a B2 for a lower price from him and flipped it for about £18k profit. Last time I talked to someone it was about £7-10K for a basic build now and there is no shortage of people prepared to pay it.
> 
> This is info you can find on Facebook and various forums if anyone is wondering. The good second hand B2s still go for a lot but the ones on reverb have been there a long time. I’d be curious to see what kind of price a 7 or 8 would still make.


Years ago, I knew some one in a local band who had bought one of the first B7s back around 2004. I think he paid around £1700 for it, pretty standard affair with an ebony top. Imagine would that would sell for now.


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