# Harley Benton Headless Prototypes



## lewis (Jun 14, 2019)

Well...im on board


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## trem licking (Jun 14, 2019)

8 string with a trem and im in. lol at me, i know


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## spudmunkey (Jun 14, 2019)

Praising the fret dressing on a prototype is a little bit pointless, but the split coil modes sounded nice, to my ear, through my shitty dell laptop speakers.


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## gunch (Jun 14, 2019)

+ Its good to see more options in the lower price bracket
- That body shape isn't hideous but pretty... safe?
~ Omg fan fret 6er pls HB

Looks like the same bridge pieces on my NK


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## littlebadboy (Jun 14, 2019)

The body is like the usual strat you see around. They could've gone a little rad with the shape.


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## lewis (Jun 15, 2019)

They made a deal to start selling legators at thomann and this body shape looks very close to a model they sell im sure?


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## angl2k (Jun 15, 2019)

If it is weight relieved I will definitely get one to test.. I am looking for a comfy lightweight headless!


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## BlackSG91 (Jun 15, 2019)

I like the guitar and it looks fun to play. I also like the colour of the guitar.


;>)/


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## Ivars V (Jun 15, 2019)

Pretty cool! Thicks all the boxes for me, if I don't get a viper or smth


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## sylcfh (Jun 15, 2019)

That type of bridge cutout would go better with a singe cut, which I'd like to see more of anyway.


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## MatiasTolkki (Jun 17, 2019)

Welp, there goes Kiesel's entire market.


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## Andromalia (Jun 17, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> The body is like the usual strat you see around. They could've gone a little rad with the shape.



Considering the prices they make money by selling a lot of them, so I suppose they have to stay reasonably "vanilla" in terms of shapes. Those are mass market items, not niche, considering headless is already niche enough.


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## Vegetta (Jun 17, 2019)

wonder how this will stack up against those NK headless guitars.


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## jwguitar (Jun 17, 2019)

lewis said:


> Well...im on board




That's really cool. I used to have a Steinberger spirit and a USA Steinberger. Both really good guitars. I wish I never sold them. Back when I got those guitars in the mid 90s it was nearly impossible to find headless guitars anywhere.


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## Jeff (Jun 17, 2019)

I particularly thought the HX Stomp sounded good.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 17, 2019)

gunch said:


> + Its good to see more options in the lower price bracket
> - That body shape isn't hideous but pretty... safe?
> ~ Omg fan fret 6er pls HB




I'm actually happy about the "safe" shape. Been wanting a normal-looking headless like the old Steinberger M series for the longest time.


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## gunch (Jun 17, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm actually happy about the "safe" shape. Been wanting a normal-looking headless like the old Steinberger M series for the longest time.



Valid, but a more single cut or Tele-oid shape would have had me more acutely interested


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## spudmunkey (Jun 17, 2019)

MatiasTolkki said:


> Welp, there goes Kiesel's entire market.



*scratches head* In what way? Because it's a (likely) cheap headless?


Jeff said:


> I particularly thought the HX Stomp sounded good.



In theory, it should have the exact same tone as the big brother, it just doesn't have the same robust I/O, expression pedal, fewer buttons, but most importantly: it only has 1/2 of the processing bandwidth to spend on amps/cabs/effects. If you have a PowerCab+, you can offload the cab IR to the PC+. Meaning: what it can do, will sound the same as the Helix. But it can only do less at one time.


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## littlebadboy (Jun 18, 2019)

So... when is it coming out?


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## Jeff (Jun 18, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> *scratches head* In what way? Because it's a (likely) cheap headless?
> 
> 
> In theory, it should have the exact same tone as the big brother, it just doesn't have the same robust I/O, expression pedal, fewer buttons, but most importantly: it only has 1/2 of the processing bandwidth to spend on amps/cabs/effects. If you have a PowerCab+, you can offload the cab IR to the PC+. Meaning: what it can do, will sound the same as the Helix. But it can only do less at one time.



I know; I had one.  I sold it once I got on the Fractal FM3 list. Kinda regret it.


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## Randy (Jun 18, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> In theory, it should have the exact same tone as the big brother, it just doesn't have the same robust I/O, expression pedal, fewer buttons, but most importantly: it only has 1/2 of the processing bandwidth to spend on amps/cabs/effects. If you have a PowerCab+, you can offload the cab IR to the PC+. Meaning: what it can do, will sound the same as the Helix. But it can only do less at one time.



Takes as granted that the Helix is widely considered to sound good, so it's still a valuable observation.


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## Lord Voldemort (Jun 20, 2019)

Dope. 

It's like a bevel-less Kiesel Osiris. It sounded really good too, maybe more to do with the Helix Stomp I suppose, but my Strandberg classic's stock pickups sound way worse than that through anything I own and that was an expensive guitar. 

Harley Benton have all the potential to dominate the guitar world and they know it.


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## Hollowway (Jun 21, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> So... when is it coming out?



Yeah, I wanna know too. I’d buy one of these immediately.


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## lewis (Jun 21, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Dope.
> 
> It's like a bevel-less Kiesel Osiris. It sounded really good too, maybe more to do with the Helix Stomp I suppose, but my Strandberg classic's stock pickups sound way worse than that through anything I own and that was an expensive guitar.
> 
> Harley Benton have all the potential to dominate the guitar world and they know it.



hell yeah and Im actually willing them on to succeed on that quest personally



Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I wanna know too. I’d buy one of these immediately.



SAME /\!!

Ive already got a white fan fret 7 string on pre order from them for October (ish) delivery
But if these get announced anytime before now and then, Im going to order one for sure.

Im hoping for 6 string fan fret versions too personally (but would HAVE to use Soapbar pickups for me to be interested - as open coil slanted options are just weak atm for UK)


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## MatiasTolkki (Jun 22, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Dope.
> 
> It's like a bevel-less Kiesel Osiris. It sounded really good too, maybe more to do with the Helix Stomp I suppose, but my Strandberg classic's stock pickups sound way worse than that through anything I own and that was an expensive guitar.
> 
> Harley Benton have all the potential to dominate the guitar world and they know it.



I hope they do, they are doing a good thing for competition. Hard to get HBs in Japan, but I am gonna have to go to a local place and pick one up and try it for myself though.

And this is why I said earlier than kiesel's market is gonna get stolen, because people will be able to get a headless for DIRT cheap compared to a kiesel, so they will need to do something to keep up. Jeff's lack of foresight and increasing prices are gonna fuck kiesel hard.


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## Lord Voldemort (Jun 22, 2019)

MatiasTolkki said:


> I hope they do, they are doing a good thing for competition. Hard to get HBs in Japan, but I am gonna have to go to a local place and pick one up and try it for myself though.
> 
> And this is why I said earlier than kiesel's market is gonna get stolen, because people will be able to get a headless for DIRT cheap compared to a kiesel, so they will need to do something to keep up. Jeff's lack of foresight and increasing prices are gonna fuck kiesel hard.



People gave you shit earlier for this opinion, but I kind of think you have a point.

Right now if you want a headless guitar but you don't have a ton of money, a Kiesel Osiris or Zeus are probably the cheapest option that isn't a relatively obscure brand like Ormsby or a Chinese brand like NK or Grote. If HB introduces this for somewhere between $3-500, it will finally be an option for people with limited funds.

So I'll bet at least few people will stop saving up for or getting a credit card for a Kiesel and just grab that HB.


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## mpexus (Jun 22, 2019)

I'm interested as well.

I would like a different finish on it, something that "screamed" headless guitar or even a Natural finish or just a plain color. Would also prefer a flat top. I like the headless designs but I would never pay the prices asked for some of them.


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## MetalHex (Jun 22, 2019)

Rondo has been make Agile headless for a couple years now for $400. Agile guitars are well worth the price


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## mpexus (Jun 22, 2019)

Now double that for Europe


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## Lord Voldemort (Jun 22, 2019)

The Rondo headless guitar is hideous, though


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## MetalHex (Jun 23, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> The Rondo headless guitar is hideous, though


They all are. 


They all are.


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## Hollowway (Jun 23, 2019)

MetalHex said:


> They all are.
> 
> 
> They all are.




I do wish Rondo would make some of these new models (headless, the higher end Epics, or whatever they're called) in 8s. They were first ones over the hill for ERGs, but haven't done anything with those in the last few years.


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## mpexus (Jun 23, 2019)

MetalHex said:


> They all are.



I think the Mayones _Hydra Elite Gothic_ is stunning... to bad is so expensive.


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## Zalbu (Jun 23, 2019)

Man, that's sick. If they offer it in HSH then I'll buy five of them. It feels like it would be logical because they're already offering a lot of HSH superstrats under their Fusion line, and headless guitars are even more associated with fusion players than superstrats are.


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## Dyingsea (Jun 23, 2019)

This is one of the few headless models I have evened considered at this point...and the cheapest of them all at that. Kudos to Harley Benton.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 23, 2019)

I'm just waiting for Kiesel to sue these guys, and for *strandberg to sue Kiesel, and for Hohner and Steinberg to sue *strandberg, and for Gibson to sue them all because Gibson invented headless guitars.


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## MatiasTolkki (Jun 23, 2019)

Gibson sues for even saying their name. Oh shit, I'm next.



USMarine75 said:


> I'm just waiting for Kiesel to sue these guys, and for *strandberg to sue Kiesel, and for Hohner and Steinberg to sue *strandberg, and for Gibson to sue them all because Gibson invented headless guitars.


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## MatiasTolkki (Jun 23, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> People gave you shit earlier for this opinion, but I kind of think you have a point.
> 
> Right now if you want a headless guitar but you don't have a ton of money, a Kiesel Osiris or Zeus are probably the cheapest option that isn't a relatively obscure brand like Ormsby or a Chinese brand like NK or Grote. If HB introduces this for somewhere between $3-500, it will finally be an option for people with limited funds.
> 
> So I'll bet at least few people will stop saving up for or getting a credit card for a Kiesel and just grab that HB.



The only headless guitars you'll find here in Japan for the most part are strandbergs, unless people have bought something through kiesel, which is a tiny number. 

I am gonna go try a couple harley bentons today, REALLY curious about their QC.


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## Hollowway (Jun 23, 2019)

I don't care for the Mayones Hydra, actually. (That gothic one is sick, though.) To me, they kind of phoned it in by just cutting off the back of the body and putting the tuners there. I feel like if you're going to design a headless guitar, do it from the ground up, rather than just tweaking an existing shape. The Hydra looks to me like Mayones just wanted to hop on the bandwagon with the least effort possible. And that criticism is not exclusive to them - there are a number of companies who did the same thing.


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## I play music (Jun 25, 2019)

stainless steel frets confirmed
not sure if 22 frets is the best choice, hope they also make 24

EDIT:
Price can be expected to be 349€


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## Randy (Jun 25, 2019)

Not to belabor my usual arguments, but this is less headless and more 1/4-headed guitar with bridge mounted tuners. 

I'm all for workarounds to just cutting the butt off the guitar off but I think one semi-non-negotiable thing about being headless is size/weight, and this thing isn't substantially smaller or (I'm assuming) lighter and the not-a-headstock thing is embellished beyond just being big enough to fit the headpiece.

Guy in the video said it was designed by someone that's not into headless guitar for people that aren't into headless guitars and that comes across quite clearly.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

Randy said:


> Not to belabor my usual arguments, but this is less headless and more 1/4-headed guitar with bridge mounted tuners.
> 
> I'm all for workarounds to just cutting the butt off the guitar off but I think one semi-non-negotiable thing about being headless is size/weight, and this thing isn't substantially smaller or (I'm assuming) lighter and the not-a-headstock thing is embellished beyond just being big enough to fit the headpiece.
> 
> Guy in the video said it was designed by someone that's not into headless guitar for people that aren't into headless guitars and that comes across quite clearly.



and let's all agree that headless guitars with junk in the trunk behind the tuners are always bad and should be outlawed.


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## gunch (Jun 25, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> and let's all agree that headless guitars with junk in the trunk behind the tuners are always bad and should be outlawed.



Nah I think it kind of works for single cut designs


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## lurè (Jun 25, 2019)

So they asked to a guy who doesn't like headless guitars to design one.

More like a social experiment than a new guitar line.


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## spudmunkey (Jun 25, 2019)

I keep seeing the "headless guitars that aren't uncompromisingly-ergonomically-designed shouldn't exist" argument, and it seems so bizarre to me.

A new car comes out that has more power. Is it a "waste" if they also didn't make it lighter? Sure, they could remove the stereo, door handles, switch from steel to aluminum and magnesium, use a plexiglass windshield with just one wiper, stickers instead of headlights, and use non-adjustable carbon fiber seat shells...but why isn't having a car with more power just a worthwhile step? And why is having a guitar that's 2lbs lighter and is missing 6-7" of eye-poking and wall-dinging and weighty headstock not still worthwhile?

Even if they still have some "junk in the trunk", it's still almost always smaller than a "normal" guitar.


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## Lord Voldemort (Jun 25, 2019)

It doesn't have a headstock: it's headless. 

Are y'all gatekeeping headless?


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> It doesn't have a headstock: it's headless.
> 
> Are y'all gatekeeping headless?



Somebody has to. Guitarists are dumb as shit and we’ll end up with another great tremolo/vibrato switcheroo messup scandal.


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## Lord Voldemort (Jun 25, 2019)

"that's not headless, it's 1/4-headed with tuners at the bridge" 

Oh lawd that made me chuckle


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> "that's not headless, it's 1/4-headed with tuners at the bridge"
> 
> Oh lawd that made me chuckle



Come on voldewolde you just like it because it’s cheap. If they managed to put out a proper headless at this price point you’d be all over it.


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## littlebadboy (Jun 25, 2019)

Eh... changed my mind... I'm looking for a budget headless and in this case, I think I'd rather go for the NK.

So... Agufish designed this?


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## Hollowway (Jun 26, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> It doesn't have a headstock: it's headless.
> 
> Are y'all gatekeeping headless?



I've been gatekeeping trems, customs, and ERGs since 2011. I ain't NOT gatekeeping headless!


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## Hollowway (Jun 26, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I keep seeing the "headless guitars that aren't uncompromisingly-ergonomically-designed shouldn't exist" argument, and it seems so bizarre to me.
> 
> A new car comes out that has more power. Is it a "waste" if they also didn't make it lighter? Sure, they could remove the stereo, door handles, switch from steel to aluminum and magnesium, use a plexiglass windshield with just one wiper, stickers instead of headlights, and use non-adjustable carbon fiber seat shells...but why isn't having a car with more power just a worthwhile step? And why is having a guitar that's 2lbs lighter and is missing 6-7" of eye-poking and wall-dinging and weighty headstock not still worthwhile?
> 
> Even if they still have some "junk in the trunk", it's still almost always smaller than a "normal" guitar.



That's a fair point, but, for me, I happen to like import tuners, Lotus cars, etc., not American Muscle, so I'm all about lighter weight. 

But, I think the real question is just why do people want headless instruments. Obviously most people want them right now because they're trendy. But, there is the compact nature of them, which suggests a little less wood behind the bridge. Lighter weight helps if portability is the main concern. And, I personally think long scale instruments (especially basses) should be headless just to prevent neck dive. 

It's a shame that builders are just randomly jumping on the headless bandwagon, without really designing it from the ground up. The strandberg kind of brought headless back, and was innovative. Prior to that, the Steinberger was a cool take on "only what you really need" for the guitar. But, I'd like to see someone come up with a clever idea. Who knows, maybe there is a neat way to approach headless with a whale tail tuner section, and a body closer to the nut, or something totally different from what we're seeing.


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## lurè (Jun 26, 2019)

I'm more annoyed by those 2/3 cm of wood over the nut then the too much wood behind the bridge.
If you are making an headless instrument, ffs, just cut the headstock out like kiesel/steinberger.


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## MetalHex (Jun 26, 2019)

Whos gonna be the one to steer this into a tonewood debate? I sense it coming


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## lewis (Jun 26, 2019)

MetalHex said:


> Whos gonna be the one to steer this into a tonewood debate? I sense it coming


Hahaha
On that, where do these peoples argument still stand with Aristides???

That tone wood sounds siiiic..oh wait

Erm erm, actually it sucks where is the rosewood?


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## Lord Voldemort (Jun 26, 2019)

It's technically not really an electric guitar tbh, more like some pickups and hardware on some wood


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## MetalHex (Jun 26, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> It's technically not really an electric guitar tbh, more like some pickups and hardware on some wood


But I think if you threw some strings on that wood you would have yourself a guitar.


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## EchelonXIII (Jun 30, 2019)

I have played a few of these Indonesian made fusions, and for the money they are very very VERY good. Obviously, there is a large amount of variance within the models as QC is somewhat lowered in order to provide the low price that is has. But luckily Thomann offers amazing customer service so getting a 'new' one if one gets a lemon is no problem at all (at least, in the EU).
If these guys make it into the market with a roasted maple neck I'm totally getting one and putting the Fluence Modern set in I've got laying around.


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## Dyster (Jun 30, 2019)

id happily sell my kidney for a ormsby if that actually covered the cost of importing one  i wouldnt mind one of these HB`s if they are priced reasonably wich i assume it will be


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## Boojakki (Dec 18, 2019)

You could pre-order those headless HB's now:





https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_dullahan_ft_bks.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_dullahan_at_tbk.htm

Well... Meh. I don't know... Probably not.


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## manu80 (Dec 18, 2019)

I'll keep for NK for now


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## Slaeyer (Dec 18, 2019)

hm.. would be awesome if they sold some spare parts of these. e.g. like those single-string locking pieces.
I always found them to be quite expensive from companies like Mera, Strandberg, etc.


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## bostjan (Dec 18, 2019)

Slaeyer said:


> hm.. would be awesome if they sold some spare parts of these. e.g. like those single-string locking pieces.
> I always found them to be quite expensive from companies like Mera, Strandberg, etc.


Pretty sure those are the new cheap made-in-China headless bridges popping up all over eBay and amazon the last 6 months or so.


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## Wolfhorsky (Dec 18, 2019)

Slaeyer said:


> hm.. would be awesome if they sold some spare parts of these. e.g. like those single-string locking pieces.
> I always found them to be quite expensive from companies like Mera, Strandberg, etc.


You can find this hardware on ebay for reasonable price.


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## Randy (Dec 18, 2019)

Wolfhorsky said:


> You can find this hardware on ebay for reasonable price.



Yeah, I recently sourced some for a build because literally none of my usual sources (Hipshot, Schaller) had anything in stock for months on end and I didn't see any reason throwing big money at some other guy building his stuff in the far East with no visible, tangible difference. Decent quality stuff.


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## lewis (Dec 18, 2019)

Shame. Incredibly underwhelming first introduction.

22 frets?
No 7 strings? 
No multiscale?

Pass


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## Dyster (Dec 18, 2019)

lewis said:


> Shame. Incredibly underwhelming first introduction.
> 
> 22 frets?
> No 7 strings?
> ...



yeah gotta agree with you here


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## I play music (Dec 18, 2019)

lewis said:


> Shame. Incredibly underwhelming first introduction.
> 
> 22 frets?
> No 7 strings?
> ...


I prefer if they start simple, then add a string, then try multiscale ... over them doing everything at once without the quality being there. Just don't buy until they offer more or less what you want. Otherwise I would already own a fusion. But I don't. Because no 7 string. 
But 22 frets really is a weird choice, I also think that.


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## Dyster (Dec 18, 2019)

i dont like the fact that currently the only HB fanfrets in 7 and 8 seem to be the shitty 100-120 euro guitars


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## manu80 (Dec 18, 2019)

Had one in fan fret.
Made in vietnam iirc
Honestly for the price it was really really good
Nice fretwork, good finish, stayed in tune...humbucker were meh but that's the case on even more expensive guitars
Kept it two weeks bit didnt see the point of the fan fret for me but they’re definitely surprising in terms of quality/price


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## Dyster (Dec 18, 2019)

yea i snagged one of the telly 7 fanfrets in matte while they where still avaliable, really glad i didnt wait

i put fishmans in mine


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2019)

Randy said:


> Yeah, I recently sourced some for a build because literally none of my usual sources (Hipshot, Schaller) had anything in stock for months on end and I didn't see any reason throwing big money at some other guy building his stuff in the far East with no visible, tangible difference. Decent quality stuff.



How much were the bridges individually?
The tengda stuff is like 35 bucks a piece. Even at oem pricing it seems iffy that their using the set for these. 

There's clone versions for like 15 bucks each.


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## Randy (Dec 18, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> How much were the bridges individually?
> The tengda stuff is like 35 bucks a piece. Even at oem pricing it seems iffy that their using the set for these.
> 
> There's clone versions for like 15 bucks each.



I bought the clones in the $15ish range. I forget what I was quoted on the "name brand" ones like Tengda since it was a while ago and I contacted so many, but it was always in the high $200s to $300 a set and unless it's made in US or Germany, I'm not paying anywhere close to that.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 18, 2019)

Randy said:


> I bought the clones in the $15ish range. I forget what I was quoted on the "name brand" ones like Tengda since it was a while ago and I contacted so many, but it was always in the high $200s to $300 a set and unless it's made in US or Germany, I'm not paying anywhere close to that.


last time I bought tengda I think it ran me like 150$ for an 8 string set. Quality is solid, but not close to hipshot or T4M level ime.


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## Randy (Dec 18, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> last time I bought tengda I think it ran me like 150$ for an 8 string set. Quality is solid, but not close to hipshot or T4M level ime.



Found the email, I was quoted $240 from Tengda.


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## Wolfhorsky (Dec 19, 2019)

I bought tremolo with brass block for 120-ish (incl. shipping).


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## Jeff (Dec 19, 2019)

Boojakki said:


> You could pre-order those headless HB's now:
> 
> View attachment 75619
> View attachment 75620
> ...



That looks hilarious.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 19, 2019)

I actually like those.


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## bassplayer8 (Dec 20, 2019)

The bevel top version kind of looks like a kiesel osiris. Also appreciate the extra wood on the neck cause its gonna make clipping on a tuner/capo much easier.


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## thesnowdog (Dec 20, 2019)

I might be weird but I don't believe being headless demands anything of the body size/weight.


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## xzacx (Dec 20, 2019)

thesnowdog said:


> I might be weird but I don't believe being headless demands anything of the body size/weight.


I guess it doesn’t have to, but I don’t think the people-that-want-headless-guitars-that-are-the-same-size-as-regular-guitars-but-don’t-have-headstocks market is very big.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 20, 2019)

I think it's bigger then you think.

Some still want the headless guitar to feel and look like a "traditional" guitar, but make no mistake: the body IS still smaller, and you still lose the whole length of the headstock. 

And also, there are many taller/larger folks who would want a guitar that didn't look like a toy/novelty on them.

There's still lots of benefit to losing the headstock, and even just an inch or two off the back.

I"ve made this analogy before, but think about cars. Lots of people chose the more powerful engine option when they buy a car, even if they also don't also get the aero package, the racing slicks, and 5-point harnesses and the carbon ceramic brakes. Just a normal-feeling car with more "go" is still desirable.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 20, 2019)

A "real world" benefit: A "normal" guitar case can't lay flat in the trunk of my car. It has to go in on an angle. The case that a Kiesel CL8 8-string multiscale ships in is 7.5" shorter than their normal one, and I can lay it flat in my car. 

Plus, compared to their 6-string strat-style Delos model, even though that CL8 is an 8-string neck-through (so it has more of the heavier "neck" wood) with a longer scale, it's _still _1.5lbs (average) lighter than the Delos, and almost that much lighter than their pretty-deeply-beveled Aries.


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## Benadon (Dec 20, 2019)

i am just glad its stainless steel, will wait to see how it turns out.


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## bassplayer8 (Dec 22, 2019)

Is the one with an ebony board a flat top compared to the bevel'd top of the flat black w/ maple board or are the pictures on the website tricking me?


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## Zhysick (Dec 23, 2019)

Mahogany body + ebony board -> arched top
Alder body + maple board -> beveled top


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## MatiasTolkki (Dec 23, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I think it's bigger then you think.
> 
> Some still want the headless guitar to feel and look like a "traditional" guitar, but make no mistake: the body IS still smaller, and you still lose the whole length of the headstock.
> 
> ...



I get the practical reason that you can have it as a carry-on when you get on an airplane because the length is within carry-on guidelines... but headless guitars still look like dicks without tips to me.


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## manu80 (Dec 23, 2019)

that was deep. Well, sorta....sorry


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## spudmunkey (Dec 23, 2019)

The heart sees what the heart wants...


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## jwguitar (Dec 28, 2019)

Boojakki said:


> You could pre-order those headless HB's now:
> 
> View attachment 75619
> View attachment 75620
> ...



I have to admit that those are great looking guitars. I always wanted a fixed bridge headless guitar. Id be curious how they are in real life.


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## josh1 (Dec 30, 2019)

Only 22 frets and no 7 string is disappointing.


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## lewis (May 24, 2020)

some talk going around that the Dullahans have been pulled from Thomanns website/lineup because Kiesel has threatened them with legal action - citing the guitar is too similar to one of their models.

this is why we cant have nice things. 
Jesus christ I hate Jeff Kiesel.
The dude recently just added a Fender Strat rip off to his lineup, but the second someone else releases a guitar that resembles something of his, then its a different story and there he is like a bad smell?

All this legal dick measuring shit that goes on has really held the guitar industry back imo

lets hope it turns out to be fake news, but nothing surprises me anymore.


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## diagrammatiks (May 24, 2020)

well. I mean. they could have like done a different shape.

but maybe don't read too much into it? hb has bene putting out tons of prototypes that just disappear after one or zero runs.

this filter only shoes nine guitars

https://m.thomannmusic.com/search.h...R&manufacturers=Harley+Benton&q=harley+benton

remember that lp multiscale. gone.
that tele multiscale? also gone.


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## I play music (May 25, 2020)

lewis said:


> some talk going around


where?


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## lewis (May 25, 2020)

I play music said:


> where?


Some people in the Harley Benton FB group were talking about it. Think someone in there has first hand info on it


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## hamster (May 25, 2020)

lewis said:


> Some people in the Harley Benton FB group were talking about it. Think someone in there has first hand info on it



Jeff Kiesel made a public statement earlier this year explaining the situation, if my memory is good he had his lawyers send a Cease & Desist letter to Thomann concerning the Dullahan series around February on the basis that they are allegedly knockoffs of his copyrighted Osiris design.

However, the Dullahan will probably come back later this year with a slightly modified design...


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## I play music (May 25, 2020)

lewis said:


> Some people in the Harley Benton FB group were talking about it. Think someone in there has first hand info on it


Maybe they pulled it from the website till they confirm with their lawyer if the claim is (in)valid, just to go safe.


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## lewis (May 25, 2020)

hamster said:


> Jeff Kiesel made a public statement earlier this year explaining the situation, if my memory is good he had his lawyers send a Cease & Desist letter to Thomann concerning the Dullahan series around February on the basis that they are allegedly knockoffs of his copyrighted Osiris design.
> 
> However, the Dullahan will probably come back later this year with a slightly modified design...


would love Fender to do the same to them over the "Delos" model.

Guys ego knows no bounds.


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## lewis (May 25, 2020)

I've said before but it irritates me because I believe it has no bearing over his sales at all.

If you are buying a Harley Benton then chances are you wont/dont/can't afford to buy a Kiesel. 

If you are buying a Kiesel, you buy one. You wouldn't look at the dullahan and suddenly change your mind from USA Custom shop kiesel to inhouse music shop cheap guitar.

It's just him being a twat for the sake of it Imo.


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## mpexus (May 25, 2020)

Wondering how much weight Kiesel Lawsuit would really have in Europe.


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## spudmunkey (May 25, 2020)

lewis said:


> would love Fender to do the same to them over the "Delos" model.
> 
> Guys ego knows no bounds.



The issue is that Fender doesnt have legal standing. Like Gibson, they waited too long to protect their IP. Kiesel is doing noting outside of what they are allowed to do, in this regard. There's a huge loophole, and like many, are exploiting it.


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## Hollowway (May 25, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> The issue is that Fender doesnt have legal standing. Like Gibson, they waited too long to protect their IP. Kiesel is doing noting outside of what they are allowed to do, in this regard. There's a huge loophole, and like many, are exploiting it.


Yeah, it’s legal, but just seems poor form to make the argument for allowing a copy (Gibson) and then saying copies aren’t allowed (HB). It’s legal, and happens a lot in business (that’s what lawyers are for) but to me a business should be careful not just to work within legal boundaries but also within the ethical guidelines that are relevant to its customers. I’m a huge fan of protecting IP in this industry, but I’m not a fan of Jeff trying to have it both ways.


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## I play music (May 25, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> The issue is that Fender doesnt have legal standing. Like Gibson, they waited too long to protect their IP. Kiesel is doing noting outside of what they are allowed to do, in this regard. There's a huge loophole, and like many, are exploiting it.


What can they actually do? Just stop Thomann from shipping Dullahans to the US or do they actually have valid claims to stop this even in Europe?


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## spudmunkey (May 25, 2020)

I play music said:


> What can they actually do? Just stop Thomann from shipping Dullahans to the US or do they actually have valid claims to stop this even in Europe?



I'm sure there's some agreement between US and UK and Europe in terms of intellectual property, but don't know for sure.


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## lewis (May 25, 2020)

If I were thomann I would fight them. They are big enough too.

So sick of the attitudes of some of the businesses.

Guitar world is getting ruined by these greedy corporate types.
How is Kiesel honestly threatened by in house made in Asia cheap guitars from Thomann?.

Pathetic. He is only doing it to stroke his own ego rather than because they are a genuine threat to his business.


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## spudmunkey (May 25, 2020)

lewis said:


> Pathetic. He is only doing it to stroke his own ego rather than because they are a genuine threat to his business.



Gibson and Fender both lost lawsuits for their IP because they didnt defend it for too long. If Kiesel let it go, they would end up in the same place as Kiesel/Fender. I dont think anyone would be made at Ibanez, Abasi, etc for protecting their designs.


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## lewis (May 26, 2020)

copyrighting a body shape for a guitar is as stupid as someone trying to s


spudmunkey said:


> Gibson and Fender both lost lawsuits for their IP because they didnt defend it for too long. If Kiesel let it go, they would end up in the same place as Kiesel/Fender. I dont think anyone would be made at Ibanez, Abasi, etc for protecting their designs.


If kiesel let it go, what bearing would it have over his sales?

Honest question because i genuinely believe it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever.
if you are a kiesel customer and saving for another kiesel - and then everyone started offering Vaders for example, you are still going to just buy a Kiesel Vader.

so to be getting your panties in a bunch over a cheap inhouse brand guitar at Thomann with much shittttter specs etc is hilarious and frustrating in equal measures.
I was never going to be a Kiesel customer because of money - then over the years their attitude - 
I have owned plenty of HB guitars and even have one now currently. There are going to be far more people who cant afford a custom shop guitar so like to rely on these cheaper brands for their hobby - and now thats getting ruined by "big time charlie from big USA company"


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## Wolfhorsky (May 26, 2020)

lewis said:


> If I were thomann I would fight them. They are big enough too.
> 
> So sick of the attitudes of some of the businesses.
> 
> ...


Maybe He fears the inevitable: the comparison of His guitars and HB with the conclusion that MIC HB guitar is not that much worse and costs much less and can be treated as a mod platform.


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## laxu (May 26, 2020)

lewis said:


> copyrighting a body shape for a guitar is as stupid as someone trying to s
> 
> If kiesel let it go, what bearing would it have over his sales?
> 
> ...



It can lead to another brand making a higher end copy of the design and thus affecting their sales. From a legal point of view it's better to try to defend your designs and trademarks than to let it be. Kiesel is not directly worried about some cheapo from Thomann, it's worried that the precedent is there to let others copy it too. You can look at Fender and Gibson for where that has led them as there are plenty of alternatives for those.

If you look at Rickenbacker, there are almost no copies of them on the market and that's because they are extremely vigilant about this. You want a Rickenbacker, you buy a Rickenbacker rather than one of the tens of copies.


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## lewis (May 26, 2020)

laxu said:


> It can lead to another brand making a higher end copy of the design and thus affecting their sales. From a legal point of view it's better to try to defend your designs and trademarks than to let it be. Kiesel is not directly worried about some cheapo from Thomann, it's worried that the precedent is there to let others copy it too. You can look at Fender and Gibson for where that has led them as there are plenty of alternatives for those.
> 
> If you look at Rickenbacker, there are almost no copies of them on the market and that's because they are extremely vigilant about this. You want a Rickenbacker, you buy a Rickenbacker rather than one of the tens of copies.


and on the point of Fender and Gibson.

Fender and Gibson customers are and were only ever going to buy their strats/Les Pauls from these companies.

How many people who were fender fan boiiis, then started buying Kiesel delos's instead?
I get what you are saying but I just dont believe it effects the sales. If you are a customer of a company and like their products - you are just going to stay on that path regardless of what others are doing/copying


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## Wolfhorsky (May 26, 2020)

@laxu and @lewis You are both right and have good arguments. Cool discussion. I like the ethics and idea of protecting IP, but Kiesel is using someones else's designs, modify them and then TM them. That's unethical and just being a hypocrite. My


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## lewis (May 26, 2020)

Wolfhorsky said:


> @laxu and @lewis You are both right and have good arguments. Cool discussion. I like the ethics and idea of protecting IP, but Kiesel is using someones else's designs, modify them and then TM them. That's unethical and just being a hypocrite. My


Haha thanks.

Its refreshing we can have mature and sensible discussion on here about subjects like this too without it descending into a farce.


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## laxu (May 26, 2020)

Wolfhorsky said:


> @laxu and @lewis You are both right and have good arguments. Cool discussion. I like the ethics and idea of protecting IP, but Kiesel is using someones else's designs, modify them and then TM them. That's unethical and just being a hypocrite. My



What is legal in terms of laws and morally or ethically right are often not the same thing. In IP protection things only the legal questions matter, not whether a Kiesel design is ultimately based on a Strat like most electric guitars.


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## laxu (May 26, 2020)

lewis said:


> and on the point of Fender and Gibson.
> 
> Fender and Gibson customers are and were only ever going to buy their strats/Les Pauls from these companies.
> 
> ...



Probably the same people who instead bought say a Japanese copy instead of a lower end Gibson or the people who bought a Suhr or PRS Silver Sky instead of a Fender Strat. They had these options to choose from and I think most people would entertain alternatives if they perceive them to be better for whatever reason (lower cost, perceive they are better than Fender/Gibson quality etc). You are right that there will always be hardcore fans that will not entertain anything different. That probably applies to Kiesel as well but I would say they are a much smaller group than those willing to shop around.


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## Boojakki (May 26, 2020)

Also, I think if there weren't copies of Fenders & Gibsons designs to begin with and the continuous applying of modern twists (24 frets, 7-strings, Floyds, high gain pu's aso.) to bring those designs to higher usability (and make them more fun) for modern players/techniques, we still would be stuck in ye olde 50's guitar designs ... There is no need to change to contemporary designs, when there is no competition...


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## AltecGreen (May 26, 2020)

For those interested, this is the design patent Kiesel was awarded for the Osiris. It's good for 15 years. 

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D844694.pdf


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## hamster (May 26, 2020)

I think that Thomann will solve this conflict easily : They will have the body chamfer of the next Duhallan batch slightly modified, and they will put a big Harley Benton logo on the guitar. End of story.

PS : Also, why didn't they put a clearly identifiable Harley Benton logo on the first generation of Duhallan guitars ?


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## lewis (May 26, 2020)

hamster said:


> I think that Thomann will solve this conflict easily : They will have the body chamfer of the next Duhallan batch slightly modified, and they will put a big Harley Benton logo on the guitar. End of story.
> 
> PS : Also, why didn't they put a clearly identifiable Harley Benton logo on the first generation of Duhallan guitars ?


they even used Ibanez branded neck plates on the original run of Dullahans HAHA (not joking - they spun them and tried to paint over the stamped Ibanez logo in the plate)


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## hamster (May 26, 2020)

God I did not know this ! LMAO ! It is consistent with the numerous rumors that say that the Indonesian HB guitars are mainly produced at the Cort Jawa-Timur factory, in Indonesia, in which there is a special facility dedicated to the production of Ibanez standard & premium models !


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## I play music (May 26, 2020)

laxu said:


> If you look at Rickenbacker, there are almost no copies of them on the market and that's because they are extremely vigilant about this. You want a Rickenbacker, you buy a Rickenbacker rather than one of the tens of copies.








rofl


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## I play music (May 26, 2020)

AltecGreen said:


> For those interested, this is the design patent Kiesel was awarded for the Osiris. It's good for 15 years.
> 
> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D844694.pdf


...and only in the US. And even then I wonder if it really helps as long as Thomann does not make a 1:1 copy.


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## hamster (May 26, 2020)

Yeah I also think that this conflict will have no effect in Europe, in which Thomann is thriving. Moreover, their market share in US is probably still negligible, but it seems to be growing each year...

I think that some big players in the US guitar distribution game (sweetwater etc...) would be really happy If an European company like Thomann had a restricted access to this market for exportation of their HB products due to some court ruling, consequently this Kiesel vs Thomann case, even if it never goes to court this time, could be the first of a long series in the future...


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## AltecGreen (May 26, 2020)

I play music said:


> ...and only in the US. And even then I wonder if it really helps as long as Thomann does not make a 1:1 copy.




There is an equivalent thing in the EU. It's called Registered Community Design. It's good for five years and renewable for up to 25 years. I don't know if Kiesel applied for one of those as well.

A design patent applies even if it is not a 1:1 copy. The most famous recent case is Apple versus Samsung for the iPhone. Apple won the case based on their design patent of the iPhone. The main thing are the illustrations in the patent with the solid and dashed lines (again see the Apple vs Samsung case). The features defined the by the solid lines are typically the ones protected by the patent. Thomann just have to make changes in the areas delineated by the solid lines. This can still be a bit subjective.


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## mbardu (May 26, 2020)

I play music said:


> rofl



LMAO Harley Benton, oooh you...


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## I play music (Jun 8, 2020)

They posted this on their facebook, so don't worry @lewis ;-)


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 8, 2020)

oh they got the right number of frets this time.


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## lewis (Jun 8, 2020)

Well this looks very Promising.

Lovely Blue - Check
24 frets - Check
revised shape to end the Kiesel Gripe - (presumably) Check

If its the new Headless, we are onto a winner.
Wonder if AguFish helped and if he will talk about the Kiesel stuff in an upcoming vid


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## spudmunkey (Jun 8, 2020)

lewis said:


> revised shape to end the Kiesel Gripe - (presumably) Check



Switching back and forth, the shape looks identical to the previous "prototype", save for the 24 frets.


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## lewis (Jun 8, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Switching back and forth, the shape looks identical, save fr the 24 frets.


Be a laugh if they told him to piss off - and came back with new models that are Identically shaped hahahaha


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## Pedro Lopes (Jun 9, 2020)

Waiting for a 7 string multiscale to come out...I'll be all over that!


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## I play music (Jun 15, 2020)

@lewis 
Looks like it even has a roasted maple neck
Now I'm interested
Hope they have enough coming and they don't sell out within a day


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## lewis (Jun 15, 2020)

I play music said:


> @lewis
> Looks like it even has a roasted maple neck
> Now I'm interested
> Hope they have enough coming and they don't sell out within a day



Very interesting. FF options and SS frets and Im seriously interested.

I hope that neck plate isnt an Ibanez one again hahaha


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## lewis (Jun 18, 2020)

officially announced

https://harleybenton.com/product/dullahan-ft-roasted-ice/

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_dullahan_ft_24_roasted_ib.htm









Ergonomically shaped alder body
Roasted canadian flame hard maple neck
Bolt-on neck attachment
Roasted Canadian flame hard maple fretboard
Black offset dots fretboard inlays
Modern C neck profile
24 stainless steel jumbo frets
Graphtech Tusq XL nut
Nut width: 42 mm (1,65")
Scale: 648 mm (25,51")
Fingerboard radius: 350 mm (13,78")
Pickups: Roswell HAF-B-BK Alnico-5 (bridge) and Roswell HAF-N-BK Alnico-5 (neck) humbucker
Master volume control
Master tone control
5-Way switch: Bridge humbucker, neck and bridge single coils, neck and bridge humbucker, neck humbucker (parallel), neck humbucker
Apollo mono bridge HL-STB02 bridge
Black hardware
Stock strings: Daddario EXL 110 010-046 (Article Nr 104555)
Colour: ice blue gloss
Including gig bag


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## Antiproduct (Jun 18, 2020)

Honestly, I really dig this. Not a metal machine look-wise but the specs speak for themself. I hope they give us more colors


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## lewis (Jun 18, 2020)

ive got a spare hipshot headless bridge in chrome that would work perfectly on this in all liklihood.

If i wasnt so TUNNEL VISION 6 string Bass over the next few months, I probably would grab this.


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## Zhysick (Jun 18, 2020)

Gigbag included... that's nice, it's not easy to find gigbags for "smaller than your standard fender or gibson guitar".
The specs are amazing and for 500€ it's difficult to beat...

And the shape is the same as previously, isn't it? Well done Thomann! Fuck Kiesel! LOL


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## I play music (Jun 18, 2020)

I think it would be worth the extra cost if they used the same EMG pickups in those that they already have in the Amaroks. Like it almost looks like the pickups are the only weak point of this guitar.


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## mbardu (Jun 18, 2020)

Lol...from the press release:


> The Roasted Ice version has all the features of the Dullahan-FTs admired by discerning, high-performance players. Like an alder body, dual Roswell HAF humbuckers, *a stunning shape*



Rubbing it in


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## vortex_infinium (Jun 19, 2020)

Now this update is seriously cool. These kind of baby blue colours with roasted/medium tone neck woods have been catching my eye lately too. Shouldn't be too hard to justify a new HB for that price, maybe jump in after the first wave of orders goes out.

Does anyone know where these are made?


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## Richter (Jun 19, 2020)

Indonesia.


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## lewis (Jun 19, 2020)

mbardu said:


> Lol...from the press release:
> 
> 
> Rubbing it in


hahahahahahah 

I was really hoping these came back like this and they told him to F off.

Looks like they did


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## lewis (Jun 19, 2020)

lewis said:


> Be a laugh if they told him to piss off - and came back with new models that are Identically shaped hahahaha



Hahaha quoting myself for the laughs


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## Aliascent (Jun 19, 2020)

I play music said:


> I think it would be worth the extra cost if they used the same EMG pickups in those that they already have in the Amaroks. Like it almost looks like the pickups are the only weak point of this guitar.



Its not a weak point, it's an opportunity to try new stuff.


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## lewis (Jun 19, 2020)

Aliascent said:


> Its not a weak point, it's an opportunity to try new stuff.



Good thing about EMGs is they are really budget friendly.
Buying a Super 77 set (same as in the Amaroks) is really reasonable compared to other pickup company prices.
They are literally £159 a set


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## I play music (Jun 19, 2020)

Aliascent said:


> Its not a weak point, it's an opportunity to try new stuff.





lewis said:


> Good thing about EMGs is they are really budget friendly.
> Buying a Super 77 set (same as in the Amaroks) is really reasonable compared to other pickup company prices.
> They are literally £159 a set


Yeah well, if they already came with those pickups it would cost, how much, maybe 50€ more? 
So there's a 100€ difference for what you get some Roswell pickups that are just a waste because no one will buy those used Roswell pickups from you.


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## I play music (Jul 11, 2020)

https://www.thomann.de/de/harely_benton_dullahan_at_24_tbk.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/harley_benton_dullahan_ft_24_bks.htm
They are back and Thomann even fixed the thing with the 2 missing frets. Cool!


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## Frostbite (Jul 11, 2020)

I play music said:


> https://www.thomann.de/de/harely_benton_dullahan_at_24_tbk.htm
> https://www.thomann.de/de/harley_benton_dullahan_ft_24_bks.htm
> They are back and Thomann even fixed the thing with the 2 missing frets. Cool!


God I want one of these so bad...


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## sylcfh (Jul 25, 2020)

They need a T-style headless.


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## MiPwnYew (Aug 21, 2020)

Digging around the Thomann page, it seems like every other Harley Benton model ships to the US (even the ones that say out of stock), but when I add a Dullahan and try to checkout it says "Unfortunately we cannot currently offer delivery for this address". I've seen HB comment on social media that its because of Covid, but seems odd that it's the only model that doesn't ship to the US (and just happened to get a cease and desist) lol.


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