# Laminated necks "the how much thread"



## OmegaSlayer (Jul 22, 2014)

I've been reading Frudua's guitar craftpedia lately, more out of curiosity and sincere interest than to understand "how to luthier" 

The combination of woods is something that really caught my attention, especially regarding the neck.

My "most laminated" guitar is the Ibanez RG2228, 5 pieces of maple (3 pieces) and wenge (2 pieces) if I stand correct.

But I've seen around Mayones with like 11 plies of laminations.

Now I've started to wonder how much if all that "lamination" affects positevely the sound or if it dumbs it a bit.

I can clearly see the advantages against warping, but has all that lamination great advantages soundwise or is it only for estetic purposes?
Don't the woods interfere too much?


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## ormsby guitars (Jul 22, 2014)

Laminating 'averages' the tone of the timbers used. Three piece maple will sound different than three one piece maple necks... It will be somewhere in the middle. 

It adds a touch of darkness to the tone. Subtle though. 

There are less chances of wolf tones, dull spots that don't sustain etc. 

The bass tends to sustain slightly more. It's subtle.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 22, 2014)

Yeah, I got that, but isn't 11 plies some sort of overkill, especially when like 4 plies are just like 2 mm wide like the maple here?







Even because maple is the most stable wood there, still has an overall mass on the neck that might account to less than 10%


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## Necromagnon (Jul 22, 2014)

Imo, the aesthetics and stability are the criterion. Average sounds etc, I don't buy it. Or at least, I will never be able to tell the difference, so I never bother with it. I just do with I have in stock, what looks nice together, and what will look nice considering the overall line of the guitar, nothing more.


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## sezna (Jul 22, 2014)

In that Mayones guitar you just posted, that's just for show. They don't do that for sound quality, they do that because it looks really cool.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 22, 2014)

sezna said:


> In that Mayones guitar you just posted, that's just for show. They don't do that for sound quality, they do that because it looks really cool.



Hmm...and is it worth in relation to stability?
Because with 11 plies the neck is too fractioned to be stable.
I'm confused 
I mean, there's a point where coolness has negative effects on a solid build.

I like it, it's cool as hell, but I wouldn't sacrifice the stability for coolness


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## will_shred (Jul 22, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Hmm...and is it worth in relation to stability?
> Because with 11 plies the neck is too fractioned to be stable.
> I'm confused
> I mean, there's a point where coolness has negative effects on a solid build.
> ...



You're not really sacrificing any stability when you do a lot of lamination's. Wood glue is stupidly strong when applied and dried correctly. Just look at any vintage Gibson, they're pretty much entirely held together with glue and they're still around and being gigged regularly to this day. That mayones neck could probably support your weight if you stood on the guitar (not that you would want to). Someone correct me if i'm wrong. 

I usually don't really worry about neck stability anymore, after gigging my mahogany necked 1982 Ibanez AS-50 in 95 degree heat and 90%+ humidity, it was totally fine. I realized that neck stability is something that people worry to much about. 

Unless you plan on doing tours in which you'd be exposing your guitar to radical climate swings on a regular basis, you probably don't really need to be concerned about neck stability.


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## sezna (Jul 22, 2014)

will_shred said:


> Wood glue is stupidly strong when applied and dried correctly.



When I first started building, I did some strength tests on some wood glue. If I glued two pieces of wood together (did the test with regular maple) and then used a hydraulic press to pull them apart (rigged it a bit to pull instead of press), the wood itself would tear before the glued joint would pull apart.

So yeah, wood glue is impressively strong.


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## MoshJosh (Jul 22, 2014)

after owning Fenders with one piece maple necks and Gibbys with one piece mahogany necks that have worked just fine I tend not to worry so much about stability, but maybe thats just me


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## UnderTheSign (Jul 22, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Hmm...and is it worth in relation to stability?
> Because with 11 plies the neck is too fractioned to be stable.
> I'm confused
> I mean, there's a point where coolness has negative effects on a solid build.
> ...


How is a more laminates = less stability? Plywood is basically a laminate. In bending, lamination is often a good choice because steam bending isn't accurate enough. I've made stuff and seen boats being made with a dozen (and more) laminates and trust me, those are as stable as it can get.

A different question would be, is there such a thing as _too_ stable, or rather too stiff?


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 22, 2014)

Maybe it's because I haven't experienced glueing wood, so I think it's not stable.
Still I wonder how just some mm of maple can affect the tone


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## stevexc (Jul 22, 2014)

It can't, which is why people use veneers with no concerns about tone.


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## AwDeOh (Jul 22, 2014)

https://imgflip.com/memegenerator


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 22, 2014)

I've never had a stability issue with one-piece necks on quality guitars, although I'm not an extreme low-tuner who likes heavy tension.
Beyond 5-piece it's all about the looks anyways. 
For the super-thin (17-18mm) necks, it might not be a bad idea to stick with 3-5pc for a little extra strength.


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Jul 22, 2014)

sezna said:


> When I first started building, I did some strength tests on some wood glue. If I glued two pieces of wood together (did the test with regular maple) and then used a hydraulic press to pull them apart (rigged it a bit to pull instead of press), the wood itself would tear before the glued joint would pull apart.
> 
> So yeah, wood glue is impressively strong.



Walterson did a test with a small off-cut from a wenge scarf-joint put in a bench vice. The wood split, the glue did not. Maybe if he sees this he can find the pictures of the result...


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## Necromagnon (Jul 23, 2014)

OfArtAndArsenal said:


> Walterson did a test with a small off-cut from a wenge scarf-joint put in a bench vice. The wood split, the glue did not. Maybe if he sees this he can find the pictures of the result...


I was about to mention that test too. So yes, glue is stronger than wood. But you still need wood to have glue joints, because a bulk glue neck... 

About neck stability (remember, it's only personnal opinion): it's only a worry for the builder, not the player. The builder chooses woods with the good orientation of grain, the stiffness to match the tension, dry enough to be perfectly stable, and glue everything under controlled humidity. If the neck wants to move, it will most probably move way before the guitar arrives in the hand of the player (and anyway, it shouldn't move if done properly). So, for all of us players, we need to be carefull obviously because it's OUR gear, but to worry about neck stability, not going to some gigs because it's to hot or whatever, I don't think it's usefull.
Even my old shitty Mako RR (chinese made bought for a hundred bucks) never moved in hard conditions.


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## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2014)

Yeah, I wouldn't get too hung up on how the different woods in a laminate affect the tone. If that were truly the case then we wouldn't only see laminated made out of pleasantly contrasting wood colors. If tone were the factor we would see laminates made of similarly colored woods. Besides that, there is no consensus on which woulda offer which tones, and no definitive (ie not anecdotal) research on whether a particular wood type generates a particular tone.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 23, 2014)

Always from Frudua
(I appreciate him because he shares so much knowledge)

Matching Guitar Woods

Sound of electric guitar wood

Tapping wood technique


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## perttime (Jul 23, 2014)

Narrow contrasting strips are usually added so that the glue joints wouldn't look bad...


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## Necromagnon (Jul 23, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Tapping wood technique


Really? The guy discusses the influence of finishes on final sound?


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## Pikka Bird (Jul 23, 2014)

Anybody remember old Framus acoustic guitars?


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## Necromagnon (Jul 23, 2014)

That's what I called multi-laminates. At 1st, I thought it was spruce...


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## UnderTheSign (Jul 23, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Always from Frudua
> (I appreciate him because he shares so much knowledge)
> 
> Matching Guitar Woods
> ...


I've told this story before and I'll keep telling it, I've seen luthiers take two nearly identical pieces of maple (from the same board even) and claim they both have very different tone. Tap tone is nonsense.


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## shikamaru (Jul 23, 2014)

I don&#8217;t buy the tone effect £& it&#8217;s already been proven. Someone did a test without a neck at all, with the headstock and body being attached to a pipe of some sort, 0 effect. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTKfHkHZ6qQ

Neck stability is a concern though, because a one piece can indeed be very stable, but it will be expensive. Lamination allows to reduce costs first. Then it also has esthetic purposes. Laminated necks can be pretty, depending on your tastes, and because you can worry less about wood stability, you can take woods that are prettier albeit not as strong.


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## FIXXXER (Jul 23, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Hmm...and is it worth in relation to stability?
> Because with 11 plies the neck is too fractioned to be stable.
> I'm confused
> I mean, there's a point where coolness has negative effects on a solid build.
> ...



i don't think that these very thin stripes of veneer add/take anything to the stability, it looks damn gorgeous though


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## Necris (Jul 23, 2014)

21 ply Maple laminate neck on TemjinStrifes Kubicki Factor Bass.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/bass-guitar-discussion/181301-nbd-here-weird-shit-80s-content.html


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## Eliguy666 (Jul 23, 2014)

BC Rich used to make these ridiculously laminated bass necks, they were called 100 piece necks or something of the sort.




Some guy on talkbass says it's 127 pieces, and I think I'll take their word for it rather than count myself.

By the way, the "combined tone" approach to laminated woods' tones is a very vague approximation with little grounding in reality. I always like to think of woods as what they cut out of the sound, frequency-wise.


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## Matt_D_ (Jul 24, 2014)

I played a composite acoustic with a neck made out of recycled guitar necks. it was a multi-piece laminate (>20 slices) neck. and it was absolutely bloody fantastic.


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## DraggAmps (Jul 24, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> i don't think that these very thin stripes of veneer add/take anything to the stability, it looks damn gorgeous though



It adds plenty, in my estimation. I agree with everyone who said it's mostly for looks and also for stability. But you can get a very stable neck just by taking a single neck block and ripping it into 3 pieces, then inverting the center piece so that it runs the opposite direction. But for 8 string and up guitars, I can see wanting even more stability and going for 5+ pieces to make for a very stiff neck. 

The thin lams like in an 11 piece Mayo neck are probably partly adding slightly more stability with each lam since it's different pieces of wood that would each tend to want to warp in a different direction and the more pieces you add, the more they equalize and won't let each other move. But I think the biggest thing is the new glue joint for each new laminate. At least that's what I imagine. A well-done, solid glue joint is generally stronger than the wood itself (meaning if you stressed the wood, it wouldn't break at the glue joint, it would be more likely to break somewhere else). All of those different pieces of wood with a new glue joint between them should continue to add up to a very rigid neck. 

As for tone, I think the most likely difference in tone you'd notice is not from the different types of woods but rather from the glue joints. Each glue joint should make the guitar sound darker. I think it inhibits the transfer of high frequencies. That's why neck thru's and set necks tend to sound darker. Rather than having a tight neck joint where bolts/screws are putting tension on the neck and body and forcing them tightly together with no glue in-between, there's a stagnant joint with a bunch of glue holding it together, which is apparently enough to make the guitar sound darker. That's why I'm of the school of thought that a well-done bolt on neck is the best type of construction. I like the idea that the neck joint has to be very tight and then the body and neck are forced together actively with bolts. Just bare wood against bare wood that should give the best transfer of the full frequency range. 

I can't tell the difference between a neck made out of 5 pieces vs 11 pieces, but I can tell that a well made bolt on guitar seems to provide an abundance of snappy high end and good resonance.


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## Necromagnon (Jul 24, 2014)

DraggAmps said:


> The thin lams like in an 11 piece Mayo neck are probably partly adding slightly more stability with each lam since it's different pieces of wood that would each tend to want to warp in a different direction and the more pieces you add


Those strips can warp juste by blowing on them. I'm pretty sure their warping force is so low that it won't even push a sheet of paper. Really, try to warp a piece of veneer, you'll see what I mean.
That's what lead me to the purely aesthetic reason (evenif the glue joint still adds a bit).


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## UnderTheSign (Jul 24, 2014)

Necromagnon said:


> Those strips can warp juste by blowing on them. I'm pretty sure their warping force is so low that it won't even push a sheet of paper. Really, try to warp a piece of veneer, you'll see what I mean.
> That's what lead me to the purely aesthetic reason (evenif the glue joint still adds a bit).


Glue a stack of veneers together though and you've got yourself a very strong, stable piece.
The bent pieces here were made from 2mm veneer


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## Necromagnon (Jul 24, 2014)

Sure, I don't say you can't, but here, we are talking of dozens of veneer glued together, not just two. That's what I wanted to highlight.


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## Deegatron (Jul 24, 2014)

Honestly, I think too many guy's put too much emphasis on neck wood for stability. If your really that concerned about stability, use properly seasoned woods, and take care of your guitar. Fender has used flat sawn 1 pc maple blanks for a long time and pleanty of their guitars are still in great playing shape 50 years later.

Other things to consider
Use a differant wood other than maple
Paduok, rosewood, etc.
Use a set of strings with balanced tension between the strings. 
Dont let your cousin Joey (who wrecks everything you love) borrow the guitar...


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## DraggAmps (Jul 25, 2014)

Deegatron said:


> Honestly, I think too many guy's put too much emphasis on neck wood for stability. If your really that concerned about stability, use properly seasoned woods, and take care of your guitar. Fender has used flat sawn 1 pc maple blanks for a long time and pleanty of their guitars are still in great playing shape 50 years later.
> 
> Other things to consider
> Use a differant wood other than maple
> ...



That's true, my dad's '54 Strat is still perfectly straight. However, I think Fender used to make a lot better guitars, for one thing. It's also never had anything higher than 9 gauge strings and standard tuning. If you're Suhr and you dry your woods for AGES and have the time to let a neck sit on the shelf for months to acclimate and make sure it won't shift just after simply cutting the first bit of relief out of it, then I can also see not worrying about it as much. But if you're building 7 or 8 string (or greater) guitars that will likely still be down tuned then it starts becoming a concern and of course a lot of it is for beauty. A lot of us small luthier guys are using wood from ebay or local or whatever and aren't aging it or kiln drying it or whatever and want get the nice looks as well as the comfort that comes with a laminated neck in terms of stability since we're building ERG and/or down tuned guitars and sometimes extended scale lengths and wood that's not necessarily as bone dry as a brand like Suhr's.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 25, 2014)

So it seems the main consensus is that tone won't be affected by laminations if not so subtly that maybe just a machine could measure it


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## Necromagnon (Jul 25, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> So it seems the main consensus is that tone won't be affected by laminations if not so subtly that maybe just a machine could measure it


Keep that for the eternal debate wood vs tone.


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## AwDeOh (Jul 25, 2014)

I've got more Spalted Brazilian MDF nearly seasoned if anyone is interested - very good for laminating.


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## Necromagnon (Jul 25, 2014)

AwDeOh said:


> I've got more Spalted Brazilian MDF nearly seasoned if anyone is interested - very good for laminating.


Is it flamed or not? If not, I don't want to imagine how bad the sustain would be...


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## Deegatron (Jul 25, 2014)

DraggAmps said:


> That's true, my dad's '54 Strat is still perfectly straight. However, I think Fender used to make a lot better guitars, for one thing. It's also never had anything higher than 9 gauge strings and standard tuning. If you're Suhr and you dry your woods for AGES and have the time to let a neck sit on the shelf for months to acclimate and make sure it won't shift just after simply cutting the first bit of relief out of it, then I can also see not worrying about it as much. But if you're building 7 or 8 string (or greater) guitars that will likely still be down tuned then it starts becoming a concern and of course a lot of it is for beauty. A lot of us small luthier guys are using wood from ebay or local or whatever and aren't aging it or kiln drying it or whatever and want get the nice looks as well as the comfort that comes with a laminated neck in terms of stability since we're building ERG and/or down tuned guitars and sometimes extended scale lengths and wood that's not necessarily as bone dry as a brand like Suhr's.


 
Downtuning has very little to do with string tension... most guy's that downtune select a string gauge that gives them roughly the same tension that they would use on a std tuning... so there is actually very little change in overal tension. this is the same for extended length guitars for the most part... these guy's are tuning down to G and such so they need the extra scale length just to get back to a resable ammount of tension... 

I think the real issue with 7 and 8 string guitars is not neccicarily the wood warping... it's the blisteringly thin neck profiles that guy's are asking for (to make 7 and 8 strings comfertable.) it's the same as an ibanez neck... they tend to warp not because they have shit wood in them... but because they are soo thin... build a neck out of aluminum and make it thin enough... and eventually it will warp... that's why most of the new ibanez necks come with the titanium reinforcing bars... if your worried about warping.... titanium or carbon fiber inserts are the way to go...


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## rikomaru (Jul 25, 2014)

I've often wondered why some of the laminates in necks are so thin, and qhy they even count it as a piece to up the count.

Yes, i'm looking at you Ibanez. Anyone know why the Ibby 6ers have uberthin wenge/bubinga lams instead of the thick, sexy ones from before? I thought it was to save money, but uhh......price hikes and such......

Anyway, it seems that unless you're part of the American big 3, you're required to go crazy laminating. Otherwise you won't be seen as "high end".


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## Necromagnon (Jul 26, 2014)

rikomaru said:


> Anyway, it seems that unless you're part of the American big 3, you're required to go crazy laminating. Otherwise you won't be seen as "high end".


I think there's some hype around those necks, I agree. Probably cause most chinese/korean/indonesian cheap guitars are made of 1 piece necks. It's the same, imo, hype/down-hype with bolt-on necks, regarded as low end because of those very same guitars...

About the thin stripes, I've no idea except to cut the cost.


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## Pikka Bird (Jul 26, 2014)

rikomaru said:


> I've often wondered why some of the laminates in necks are so thin, and qhy they even count it as a piece to up the count.
> 
> Yes, i'm looking at you Ibanez. Anyone know why the Ibby 6ers have uberthin wenge/bubinga lams instead of the thick, sexy ones from before? I thought it was to save money, but uhh......price hikes and such......



I personally love the way it looks, but I agree with you on the terminology. I think they should just list the Prestige necks as "3-piece maple neck with walnut pinstripes" or something like that.


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## VSK Guitars (Jul 26, 2014)

I love the way contrasting colored laminates look, it's a plus that they add stability at the same time...


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## perttime (Aug 1, 2014)

rikomaru said:


> why the Ibby 6ers have uberthin wenge/bubinga lams


Because a glue joint between two pieces of maple would look bad. Add a contrasting stripe of something dark and it looks OK.

It is the same thing as with traditional one piece Fender necks with the "skunk stripe" covering the truss rod on the back side. They use dark wood, instead of maple, so that the joints would look OK.


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## asfeir (Aug 2, 2014)

If you look at it we'll, that mayones neck works a bit like a 5 piece neck if you consider that the many laminates on each side of the central stripe work as two "composite stripes"


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## SkullCrusher (Aug 3, 2014)

Regarding the 11 pc mayones necks.

The more pieces of wood = the more glue, and the glue is actually stronger than the wood itself.


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## Eliguy666 (Aug 3, 2014)

SkullCrusher said:


> Regarding the 11 pc mayones necks.
> 
> The more pieces of wood = the more glue, and the glue is actually stronger than the wood itself.



This is true, but be cautious: having too much glue can seriously deaden a guitar's sound. Laminate necks are often fine, within reason, but I've seen some cutting board (15+ piece) bodies that sound like you might expect a cutting board to.


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## Necromagnon (Aug 4, 2014)

SkullCrusher said:


> Regarding the 11 pc mayones necks.
> 
> The more pieces of wood = the more glue, and the glue is actually stronger than the wood itself.


Glue joint is stronger. Not sure how glue actually is stronger than wood, and it depends on which direction you stress wood (parallele to fibres or perpendicularly). Also take not that glue is much much less elastic than wood, thus having to much glue may be not so good in a neck that needs to flex a little bit, imo (need confirmation of pros on that, that's my personnal guess).


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