# Harmonic Minor...



## soldierkahn (Aug 21, 2008)

Hey guys, im finally getting heavy into Harmonic Minor and its modes, especially the 5th mode, and im just wondering how to approach to using these scales for my own writing. Ive always been a rock player but now that Ive moved onto to Metal for more challenges, im just wondering how some of you approach the Harmonic Minor scale when youre writing.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 21, 2008)

Well, good sir, I would love to give you a long, rambling post that I pass off as advice, but I'm afraid that I am unclear as to your meaning. Do you mean what technique, how many notes per string, how we write riffs with it? Specify a tad more and I shall help you to the best of mah ability.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 21, 2008)

well, as you know the Harmonic Minor isnt one of those friendly sounding scales, so I try to always give my notes that Arabic sound. heres an example of some shit i always find myself doing


E------------------------------------
B------------------------------------
G------------------------------------
D----------------------4-5-7---7h8p7
A-------------0-3-5-6---------------
D----0-0--4-5-----------------------


so i like to always write single note ascending and descending runs, i just need some help with structuring it all correctly. am i making sense?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 21, 2008)

Harmonic minor gives you a major V chord, so that you can have a V-i cadence in a minor key, instead of v-i. Play Emi-Ami. Sounds alright, but not too strong. Now, play E _major_-Ami. The cadence is much stronger. That's just the tip of harmonic minor, but it's one of the most essential things to know about the scale. Fool around with that notion, ascribe it to progressions, like i-iv-V-i. V-i-VII-VI-V is more flamenco and uses a picardie third (otherwise the VII would sound bad).

That second progression is in the fifth mode, but only the V chord is in harmonic minor, which may cause you to realize when and when not to use harmonic minor if you try to solo over it. Hope that helps.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 21, 2008)

alright youll have to cut me some slack on the theory lingo. can you show me examples of what youre talking about?


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 21, 2008)

Aha! I can now lend some assistance (I still don't get it). Okay, so the degrees (notes) of a scale are given numbers. The G major scale is numbered 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 for the notes G A B C D E F#, G being one, A being two, etc. Your G harmonic minor scale is numbered the same way, although accidentals (sharps and flats) are given on those numbers to indicate how it is different from the major scale. So G harmonic minor is G A Bb C D Eb F#. Its "formula" is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. Because the third and sixth degrees were flatted (B to Bb and E to Eb)

Those roman numeral thingies he gave you came from that. So the i is a chord built with that degree as its root. So the i is G minor, the ii is A diminished, the III is Bb augmented, the iv is C minor, the V is D major, the vi is Eb major, and the vii is F# diminished. 

The lowercase numerals show that the chord is minor, whereas capital numerals represent major chords.

SchecterWhore gave you an example with a picardy third (using a major third in a chord where the key would normally require a minor third). 
This is why the VII is capitalized instead of vii, because it uses a picardy third (making the chord major instead of minor)


So the example chord progressions he gave were 

Gm Cm Dmaj Gm (i vi V i)

and 

Dmaj Gm F#maj Ebmaj Dmaj (V i VII VI V)


For clarification look at the (i). It's name is Gm, the first note of the scale. The V is D, the fifth note of the scale. 

See? These numbers are all-freaking important to theory, but no one gives them the emphasis they deserve. I think I'll write a workbench article, because damn near ALL western music theory is explained with those numbers, but it's never stated like that. (Sorry for the rant, but this is a major pet peeve that I have with music theory, becuase once those stupid numbers are understood, it can become very easy.)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 21, 2008)

Edit: TA got to it before I could. Oh, well. Read mine, too.


Let me hook you up with a scale degree conversion, first.

Major scale: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
Minor scale: i ii° III iv v VI VII
Harmonic minor: i ii° III+ iv V VI vii°

If you don't know already, these roman numerals represent the triad chords that are made by stacking thirds onto each consecutive scale degree. Little roman numerals (like iii) mean minor, big ones mean major (like IV), and little ones with a ° mean diminished (like vii°). In C Major, C is I, Dmi is ii, Emi is iii, F is IV, G is V, Ami is vi, and Bdim is vii°.
The + means augmented, like a major chord with the fifth raised (example: CEG#). Note that harmonic minor produces two diminished chords and an augmented chord.

Because the natural minor is a mode of the major scale, I'll line up the two so that the scale numbers match up:

Major: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
Minor: III iv v VI VII i ii°

Here's a i-iv-v-i, the chord formulas, and a scale in E minor:

Emi-Ami-Bmi-Emi

i - Emi: EGB
iv - Ami: ACE
v - Bmi: BDF#

E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E

Harmonic minor raises the seventh scale degree in a minor scale:

E-F#-G-A-B-C-D#-E

Thus, the chord formulas change. Anything that had a D in it will now have a D#.

i- Emi: EGB
iv - Ami: ACE
*v- B*: BD#F#

Because B is now a major chord, it can no longer be v, we have to change it to its major equivalent, V.


Now, the flamenco progression, in E minor, goes like this:

V-i-VII-VI-V
B-Emi-D-C-B

i - Emi: EGB
V - B: BD#F#
VI - C: CEG
VII - D: DF#A

Did you catch it? The V chord has a D# in it, but the VII chord, whose tonic is D, does not have a D#. If the progression were fully in harmonic minor, we would have a vii°, D#dim, not D, and the progression would lose some of its resolution. When we take a minor tonic chord and make it major, in spite of the rest of the progression, we are "borrowing" a major third. This particular form of a major third is called a picardy third. As it so happens, we are treating the V as the tonic, and in a minor tonality, V denotes harmonic minor.

In addition, you can't just solo with harmonic minor over the whole progression - well, you can, but I don't make any guarantees on how it will sound - you have to use natural minor over the VII chord, or avoid that D# so that you don't have conflicting notes.

How's that?


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 21, 2008)

Bwahahahaha!


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## soldierkahn (Aug 21, 2008)

maybe i should be more specific as to how i want to apply this to my writing. I play a lot of Lamb Of God esque playing, so theres not a whole lot of Major-Minor chord voicings going on here, its pretty much just br00tal chugging with plenty of single note runs like in the diagram i gave. is there any way for me to take the knowledge bombs you two have just dropped on me regarding the Harmonic Minor scale, and put it into a practical exercise?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 21, 2008)

If it's just chugging, then no worries. If you're soloing in E harmonic minor, it'll sound nasty when you play over a D, but mixing tonalities can sound cool. It's up to you. In metal, you really can't go wrong with harmonic minor. 

All harmonic minor is is natural minor with a major seventh. Compare natural:
D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D
To harmonic:
D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C#-D

You get a minor second between C# and D. That C# is going to want to pull up to that D to resolve, much more than C would.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 21, 2008)

...
Try this:

e--------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------
G--------------------------------------------------
D----0---------------------------7875-4-5----------
A----0------0-0-0-0--0--0--0--------------6--5--3--
D----0------0-0-0-0--0--0--0-----------------------

To know the note values, add the number of -'s after each note. Each space is equivalent to a sixteenth note so 0-0-0-0-0- are eigth notes; 00000 are sixteen notes; 0--0-- dotted eights, etc. 

I don't know why but I can't seem to understand what you're asking, sorry. I'm trying to help!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 22, 2008)

Hmm, it's useful to know the chords when sweeping, but nobody uses harmonic minor for anything but metal solos and and that V chord, since it harmonizes so strangely. If you've only got power chords, arps are a great way to express harmonic minor. I hate sweep arpeggios, though. They're a bullshit way to go about a solo, and I've never found a good use for them other than as grace notes.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 22, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> I hate sweep arpeggios, though. They're a bullshit way to go about a solo, and I've never found a good use for them other than as grace notes.



Indeed.


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## HammerAndSickle (Aug 22, 2008)

I just wanna say that between the two of you (SchecterWhore and TonalArchitect) I've learned so much, just by reading your posts. It's like watching Jesus and Gahndi debate on morality. Rep all around


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## soldierkahn (Aug 22, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> ...
> Try this:
> 
> e--------------------------------------------------
> ...





yea, you actually did understand what i was asking and you nailed it on the head with this post! Thats the EXACT kind of thing i was looking for. A practical metal application for Harmonic Minor. Now you and me are on the same page, lol.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 22, 2008)

big example of stuff i like to try and come up with is like Laid To Rest from LOG, heres an exerpt from what im talkin about

 |-------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------3--------------------------------|
|--------6-5-3-----------5-6----------------------------|
|-0-0-0---------0-0-0---------0-0-0--8-5-4/7-8-7-10-7-8-|
PM-----.........-----.........-----

|-------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------|
|-------4h5p4----------8-7-5--4h5p4---4-----------------|
|-------------6---------------------6---5-6-3-5---3-----|
|-0-0-0----------0-0-0--------------------------6---5-6-| 


thats the kind of applications i like to use Harm Min for. I know theres some chromaticisms in there too, but its HMin for the most part, right?


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 22, 2008)

Aye, 'tis. I'm so glad that I finally got it right! As for applying it, there are no rules. It's just a scale, and not some synthetic monstrosity (though they're cool too!), so just think as you would in natural minor. 

If you're asking how to most effectively pull the exotic tonality out of it, float around the fifth, sixth, seventh, and first degrees of the scale. This is why phrygian dominant (the fifth mode) sounds so damn sexy. 

Okay, since I basically just said, "use your ears," which is horridly nondescript advice, I will give some examples. 

Pedal point stuff:

e------------------------------------------
B------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------
D------------------------------------------
A-----5-----6----9----6---5----5~~~--5-5
D-0-0---0-0---00---0----0---00--------0-0


That was D phrygian dominant (from G harmonic minor)

e---------------------------
B----------------------------
G----------------------------
D---0-0--------1/4-----------
A---0-0---5-6--1/4---0-0-0-0
D---0-0--------1/4---0-0-0-0--
That Ab5 is not held out for the duration (interpret loosely!)

Kinda go through its modes: 

e---------------------------------------------
B---------------------------------------------
G---------------------------------------------
D---------145-------457-------578--7-5~~~~-
A---0-0--------1-1-------4-4-----------------
D---0-0--------1-1-------4-4-----------------

It's like most composition, go with what feels and sounds right.



HammerAndSickle said:


> I just wanna say that between the two of you (SchecterWhore and TonalArchitect) I've learned so much, just by reading your posts. It's like watching Jesus and Gahndi debate on morality. Rep all around




Hurray! I'm so glad that we can help (I will speak for SchecterWhore because I got to it first! BWUHAHA!)

So cool, I hope you continue to dig what we say, and if you have questions, suggestions, or anything else, feel free to ask!


And thanks for the rep!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 22, 2008)

+1


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## soldierkahn (Aug 22, 2008)

yea, i just came up with somethin similar to this 
e---------------------------
B----------------------------
G----------------------------
D---0-0--------1/4-----------
A---0-0---5-6--1/4---0-0-0-0
D---0-0--------1/4---0-0-0-0--


yesterday using (fogive me if i murder this) stacked fourths, 

e-------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------------------
D---0-0---5-6--00--6-5-x-3----00--5-6--1/4--------------
A---0-0---5-6--00--6-5-x-3----00--5-6--1/4---1p0-0-0-0--
D---0-0--------00------x-3----00-------1/4---1p0-0-0-0--


so can you break down to me why the fifth mode sounds soooooo damned awesome? lol. i knwo that was totally un-theory of me to say, i just wanted everyone to know how much i love these modes, lol.

okay so if i understand what you are sayin, to get the exotic sound, i need to play around with D and its 5th, 6th, and 7th?


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 22, 2008)

soldierkahn said:


> yea, i just came up with somethin similar to this
> e---------------------------
> B----------------------------
> G----------------------------
> ...



Coolness. If you care the word you meant might be parallel fourths, that is harmonizing in perfect fourths regardless of whether the fourth actually belongs to the scale. But don't sweat the terminology.

So, why is the fifth mode awesome?

Because of the intervals. 

Crappy answer I know, but it's kind of difficult to say. Like why is a sunset beautiful? I don't know; it just is. So I'm afraid the only answer I can give is because of the colors. So forgive me, but I can show you. 

Play this [at a moderate pace!!!!] and you will see what I mean.

e------------------------------------------------------
B------------------------------------------------------
G----0-2-3-2-0---2-3-5-3-2---3-5-7-5-3---5-7-8-7-5--
D------------------------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------------------
D------------------------------------------------------

e-------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------------
G----7-8-11-8-7----8-11-12-11-8----11-12-14-12-11-12~~~~
D-------------------------------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------------------------------
D-------------------------------------------------------------

See? The awesome comes in because the seventh degree is natural and the sixth degree is flatted. This creates the minor third interval between D# and F#. There scale contains the notes D (a semitone below D#) and G (a semitone above F#). This root-(D of D phyrgian dominant, the fifth mode) minor second-minor third-minor second intervallic combination gives the scale its exotic flavor. So if you want to get that sound in D phrygian dominant (G harmonic minor), then make good use of the notes D, D#, F#, and G.

Hope that helps!


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## soldierkahn (Aug 22, 2008)

so D Harmonic Minor in the 5th mode is essentially G Harmonic Minor?


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 22, 2008)

soldierkahn said:


> so D Harmonic Minor in the 5th mode is essentially G Harmonic Minor?



Close, I think you just misspoke. D _phrygian dominant_ is the 5th mode of G harmonic minor.


So G harmonic minor=

G A A# C D D# F# 
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 

D phrygian dominant=
D D# F# G A A# C

EDIT: So the fifth mode is this scale starting from (and revolving around) the note D. Its name is phrygian dominant. I don't know why, I think to scare people and make theory look bad. I won't lie, when I first heard the word phrygian, I was terrified; for they didn't explain it. If it's still unclear, just ask and I (or SchecterWhore) will be glad to help.

EDIT 2.0 Guh! The tables have turned! SchecterWhore beat me before I could finish the edit!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 22, 2008)

This is G harmonic minor:
G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F#-G

This is the phrygian dominant (mode 5) of D harmonic minor:
A-Bb-C#-D-E-F-G-A

Not the same, though a bit similar. In the natural form, D minor and G minor only differ by one flat.

Edit: And like TA said, D phrygian dominant is in the key of G harmonic minor. Grab a circle of fifths, write in the 5 of every minor key, and you'll always know what to play, guaranteed. I have one taped on my wall.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 22, 2008)

SW, do you think you could show me an example of the circle of fifths youre talking about, pertaining to Harmonic Minor? Or am i incorrect in my assumption that we are still talking about D Harmonic Minor?


:: bows to both of you being theory juggernauts, and appreciates you breaking things down Barney/Big Bird style for me ::


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 22, 2008)

It's hard to get a good one of these. As you see, the key names are listed all around the circle, ordered in the number of accidentals they have. If you go clockwise, every tonic is a fifth away from the last one, hence the name. On the inside of the circle are the relative minor keys of those same major scales. Thus, the relative minor of C major is A minor, and F major is D minor, and so on.

Basically, this circle tells you how many sharps or flats are in a key, what the tonic of that key is, and if you know the order, which notes are sharp and which are flat. In a sharp key, this is the order that the notes are sharpened: FCGDAEB
In a flat key, it goes backwards: BEADGCF

Thus, in the key of G, there will be one sharp, which will fall on the first note in the sharpening sequence, F. The scale of G major is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. Its relative minor is E minor, E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E. In the key of A, we add 
two more sharps on, because it is two more keys away: A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A.

For flat keys, it works just the same, but the direction you're going in is opposite. F has one flat: F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F. Ab has four: Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab

It's easy to find the harmonic minor of any given key, just check the natural minor, say, A minor (whose relative major is C major, which has no sharps or flats, making this easier), and raise the seventh scale degree a half step. So, if you have A minor, A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A, and you want A harmonic minor, take that G and sharpen it: A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A.

Now, I hardly see this on these circles, but I like doing it, because it makes my life easier. You can copy this diagram, and replace those annoying key signatures and staff lines with numbers along the rim of the circle, like this one:




(The reason I didn't use this one is because it doesn't have relative minor keys on it.)
Copy those relative minors and put them next to those sharp/flat signs, so you know which key they correspond to. It should also be noted that the second circle has the enharmonic keys on it: Cb/B, Gb/F#, and Db/C#. They're the same, but they have different "spellings".
Compare C#: C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#-C#
to Db: Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C-Db
If you play them on piano, you'll see that they are the same exact key.


Now, the useful part: figure out the fifth of each minor key, and put that somewhere in the circle where you can tell its relation. You can do this by taking the triad construction of the minor key's tonic chord, and looking at what the fifth is. For Ami, ACE, for example, the fifth will be E. So, if you're playing A harmonic minor, and you want to be metal, you look at your circle of fifths, see that your phrygian dominant is going to be E, and you whip out your phrygian dominant shape, and slide it up to E.


Now that I've covered that, here is the reason why it's called phrygian dominant: in the major scale, the third mode is called the phrygian mode. In the scale of C major, the phrygian mode is E phrygian. When you go to the relative minor, this then becomes the fifth mode of the minor scale. Now, going back to what I was saying pages ago about that V-i resolution being stronger than a v-i resolution, that has a play in how this mode is named in the harmonic minor. Because V resolves better to I (or i) than any other chord in a diatonic scale, it is called the dominant chord. It dominates, I guess. That added resolution that harmonic minor gives to its fifth chord makes it dominant. (This last part may be bullshit, the name might not be different for a v chord, somebody call me on that if so.)


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 22, 2008)

That was a most epic post, Mike (may I call you Mike?), well said. If you don't mind I would like to give some additional backing into why the crap it's called the dominant chord. 

So we have the major scale right? Let's go C major so that we can go on without freakin' sharps and flats.

C D E F G A B 

Okay, so you know how we said they're numbered one through seven right? Well, there is an even more terrible way. They have these awful names that are almost never used (Well except for four of them). Hell, I first learned about them from my mom's college Music Appreciation book. Here they are. 

First Tone (C) Tonic 
Second Tone (D) Supertonic
Third Tone (E) Mediant
Fourth Tone (F) Subdominant
Fifth Tone (G) Dominant
Sixth Tone (A) Submediant
Seventh Tone (B) Leading tone
Eighth Tone (C) Octave

So here we go. You've heard of octaves, and probably the tonic-- explained as the first note or "root" of a scale. Maybe the leading tone, which is the note just before the octave which "leads" the ear up to the octave (and makes the major scale resolve so darn well)

Well, look at the other ones and BEHOLD! (I'm feeling melodramatic) The Dominant. It's the fifth note of the scale, and if one builds a chord from that note, it will want to pull back to the tonic. So there. The name of the V-I change explained.

EXTRA CREDIT: So maybe you heard some jazz dudes talking about dominant seventh chords. Well, what the crap? Well dig this: even though the V-I progression was pretty sweet, it could be made better. How? Add a seventh degree to the V chord (note that it's a seventh in relation to the root of the chord not the key). So we have G major going to C major. Well add a seventh to the G major and we have a G7 chord G-B-D-F. Yup, that's called a dominant seventh and it is so called because composers used this chord to make a stronger resolution (the seventh [in this example F] pulls to the third of the I chord [in this example E]. 

So there's the story of tonic, octave, leading tone, and dominant, and why we have dominant seventh, major seventh, and minor seventh chords.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 22, 2008)

Well put, Robert. Also, if you take the tonic, the dominant, and the submediant, you'll see why there's such great harmonic relationship between the I, the V, and the natural minor, vi. Here it is spelled out:
C: CEG
G: GBD
Ami: ACE
C, E, and G are all shared between them. Hey, that's the tonic chord. If we add another third on top of those suckas (making them seventh chords), we see more relationships, as TA pointed out.
Cmaj7: CEGB
G7: GBDF
Am7: ACEG


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 22, 2008)

Neat. I never really thought about that. Did you notice this at some random point when looking at/thinking about chords? Or did some teacher point this out?
I think about the closest I've got to looking at it like that was "... hey, these chords have the same note (tonic and dominant)." Other than that, I remember reading some thing on the internet a while ago arguing that I-V progressions were stronger than iii-vi moves because the other one shares more notes. Although I wished that the author would have stressed that weaker chord progressions were not necessarily less beautiful or useful.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2008)

I think about music a lot, and tried to stump my theory teacher as often as possible last semester. That really helped my understanding of music. I won't have any new material to work with until next year, unfortunately.

The reason why V pulls into I, in addition to that shared G, is that B being a leading tone. I'm still trying to figure out tonality. Rhythm is really my thing.


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## HammerAndSickle (Aug 23, 2008)

Just fyi, because I really am not good enough to write those long posts like you: Phrygian Dominant (mode 5) is called dominant because its tonic 7 chord is a dominant chord: E7. So it'd be E, maj3, perfect5, minor7.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 23, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> I think about music a lot, and tried to stump my theory teacher as often as possible last semester. That really helped my understanding of music. I won't have any new material to work with until next year, unfortunately.
> 
> The reason why V pulls into I, in addition to that shared G, is that B being a leading tone. I'm still trying to figure out tonality. Rhythm is really my thing.




Coolness. So you had a dedicated theory class? Damn. In the sad little wasteland where I live, we had (at high school) choir, jazz band, and orchestra. In those classes, theory was taught a bit.
I asked a fellow student who took choir (I don't sing or play an orchestral instrument and never tried out for jazz band) what they learned. I was scared: intervals and basic rhythm notation (like half notes and quarter notes!). 

I knew about the leading tone, but the shared notes sort of eluded my perception. And rhythm is _wonderful_. 

Two questions: Have you studied African and Indian rhythmic traditions? I just got the book _Ancient Traditions- Future Possibilities_, and it is pretty interesting. 

And are you familiar with Harmonic Major? Is F harmonic major D harmonic minor? (If I had the bedanged formula I could get it, but I don't have it!)



HammerAndSickle said:


> Just fyi, because I really am not good enough to write those long posts like you: Phrygian Dominant (mode 5) is called dominant because its tonic 7 chord is a dominant chord: E7. So it'd be E, maj3, perfect5, minor7.



I wouldn't say "not good enough" more like "not crazy enough."  You need to lose some sanity. Look into the eyes of that Cthulhu figure (doll is not terrifying enough, nor is "plush").


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## HammerAndSickle (Aug 23, 2008)

True, the fact that I understand what you guys are saying makes me crazy enough though


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2008)

Edit: The fact that you can understand it is a plus for me, I think. Maybe I can advertise theory lessons and make some money off of this, finally!



At TA:
Well, in high school, I took one music class, beginning percussion, where I made it my mission to have the lead part as often as possible. I usually got it, because I was the one of the best mallet players in the group, but I had nowhere near the amount of musical knowledge then as I do now. My high school did have a music theory class, IB music studies, but I was not interested in it at the time. After I got into Rush at the end of my junior year, I became so much more interested in music. My wonderful stepfather was a catalyst in that development, and he did teach me some Indian rhythm stuff. We've gone to a few ragas, and it always amazes me how crazy and complex that stuff is.

College really opened doors for me. I go to a community college, but it has a really excellent music program. I'll be taking harmony 1 in a couple of weeks, which is all about four part writing. Last semester, there was a drummer in my Intro to Theory class who was really into Meshuggah, African and Indian rhythms, and the like. Too bad he didn't stick around, because I probably could have gotten my polyrhythm education from him (not to mention some badass beats to jam with).

Now, harmonic major... The Grimoire book says harmonic major is like a regular major scale, spare a flat 6. So, F harmonic major: F-G-A-Bb-C-Db-E
Not D harmonic minor. Mode 6 sounds weird. Enharmonic equivalent: E#-Fx-Gx-A#-B#-C#-Dx

I made a list of major scales up to three flats and three sharps. I'll see if I can find a similar harmonic minor.



HammerAndSickle said:


> Just fyi, because I really am not good enough to write those long posts like you: Phrygian Dominant (mode 5) is called dominant because its tonic 7 chord is a dominant chord: E7. So it'd be E, maj3, perfect5, minor7.



Thanks for clarifying that.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 23, 2008)

*Ponders teaching theory for money and begins wringing hands in turn-of-the-century tying-maidens-to-railroad-tracks glee*


Hmm. My college offers music theory courses, but they center around singing. I read the course description and it's more like "sight-singing and some arranging and composition." To me, music theory is just like a language used to convey ideas such as scales, arpeggios, and chord progressions in terms of formulae so that they can be converted easily among the keys. 

And thank you for the Harmonic Major formula, good sir. Major scale with flat six so: 1-2-3-4-5-b6-7. All right. I should be able to remember that. 

And thanks for enlightening me a bit about your music and schooling. Sad to say, but no one in my immediate family is musical to the point where they are currently involved and could teach me stuff. 

Okay now for a small rant. Man, harmony 1? Maybe it's the same thing, but at my college we have basic music theory I & II and advanced music theory I & II and their labs. And beginning percussion? Well, we had drum line and jazz band in high school which both used and taught percussion instruments.
Garrrr, this just reminds me of when for A.P. English last year, we had to read _And Still We Rise_, which if you haven't read it is about gifted children in a disadvanted school and otherwise really crappy situation. The author ragged on about how difficult it was for them to get into (Ivy League-style) colleges because their school only offered eight A.P. courses. 

Mine offers seven.


As a disclaimer their lives were 90,000x harder than mine for other reasons, but their school still offered more college board stuff than mine, so argh!


Oh and HammerandSickle, thanks for the explanation, its meaning just dawned on me this morning. You know, there needs to be (or if there is, I need to find it) an all encompassing theory book which also gives all the reasons why stuff is named like it is.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2008)

In our music program, we have Music 200, which is rhythms, sight reading, basic interval training, basic triads, and key. Harmony 1 deals with four part harmony, as I said, seventh chords, and nonharmonic passing tones. The final is a composition of a chorale, which is performed by a quintet. The corequisite is musicianship, which is solfeggio, rhythm training and atonal interval training. Musicianship and harmony go three or four semesters. Somewhere down the line is dissonance and augmented sixth chords.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 23, 2008)

:jealousy:



I wonder how similar they are? (meaning, my college's course descriptions are so vague that I don't know what they encompass)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2008)

I assume you're self-taught. You're doing a damn fine job for not having a formal music education.

You might have something similar to my musicianship 1, by the sound of it. Sight singing, and what have you. Everybody hates musicianship, though. It's a corequisite to the big theory class for a reason.

I guess that my school's music program is so badass because of all the media industry out here. Hell, Jerry Seinfeld graduated from my college.

Edit: Just counted 65 courses in music in my fall catalog.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you, Mike! I am indeed self taught in terms of theory. I took guitar lessons for two years (basically purchased a guitar and decided to take lessons from the same store [we have two music stores, and this is the second largest city in the state, no hyperbole]). My first teacher was more into jazz and blues, and a little after I brought in the Master of Puppets tab--Metallica was what pushed me to learn the instrument-- he decided to switch me over to another teacher, whose reputation was &#8220;have every Metallica song memorized.&#8221; 

The point of this story is that after a while I asked him about theory. He wrote down the circle of fifths and said &#8220;Okay, this will seem like it&#8217;s totally useless, but it&#8217;s not.&#8221; I asked him midway or towards the end of the lesson, so before he could explain it, the lesson was over. He later decided to do away with his weekend classes, so that was the extent of my formal musical training. 

So most of the theory I picked up was from guitar magazines. That sounds a little silly, but my first instructor suggested that I subscribe to one, and he promptly tore out a subscription thingy from _Guitar One_. That was a really good magazine, whose editors liked jazz quite a lot, so they hurled horrifying stuff like Coltrane Changes at me. I think that&#8217;s where I learned most of my theoretical stuff, and the rest from that Music Appreciation text and such. 

Well, okay, this might undo my complaints about my school, but there are things to consider, so hold onta yer britches fur a spell. 

For the entire year (the booklet just says 2007-2008 catalogue) there are 100 courses flat among the Applied Music, Music Ensemble, and Music sections. But I call shenanigans! Applied voice is given no less than eight times (100,101, 200, 201, 300, 301, 400, and 401)! Further, there are such courses as Topics which &#8220;includes Current Topics, Advanced Topics, and Special Topics.&#8221; Then there&#8217;s stuff for teaching music, conducting, internship, and independent study. 

So while 100 seems impressive, that&#8217;s the entire department of a state college including the redundant &#8220;applied&#8221; courses, whose description is &#8220;private lessons.&#8221; 

About Musicianship I, I don&#8217;t know. Here&#8217;s the description for the Advanced Music Theory II Lab: &#8220;Students will be taught sight singing and dictation skills that will prepare them to see with their ears and hear with their eyes. Students will learn simple to advanced applications of writing down music from aural performance, and learn to quickly analyze melodies by singing them at sight.&#8221; Sounds like ear training to me. Which, I would argue, is not music theory. 

So I probably have no reason to complain, but that theory thing ticks me off. 

If you narrow down the applied courses there are 53 different classes in the entire department for the entire year.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2008)

Yeah, there are perhaps six music theory classes in my catalog. The rest is instrument training, bands, appreciation (what the hell) and history, not forgetting the ubiquitous applied music classes. Here's the one that really gets me:

*Music 191-
Music Laboratory For Listening - 0.50 UNITS Rpt 3*
_Prerequisite: None. Open entry/Open exit. Credit/No Credit.
Students use Listening Library materials and equipment to do listening assignments from Music Appreciation, History, and Musical Theater Repetoire classes or listen to music of their own choosing._


Why would you pay for that?

Yep, Advanced Music Theory Lab II sounds like Musicianship 1. Although, ear training is a semi-useful skill at the very least. The people coming out of those classes, though, from what I've seen, really know what the they're doing. Try singing a song and immediately know every note in the melody.

Well, if you ever need help with a concept, I'll try disseminating whatever I'm learning into this forum whenever it's brought up. Truth is that music theory classes can move pretty slowly because some concepts are so hard for people to grasp. It's all cumulative, too. If you have a major scale, you can figure out harmonies, and if you have harmonies, you can figure out modulation. If you can figure out modulation, you have half of Western music under your thumb. I think more people have problems with rhythmic subdivisions, and more likely than not, the majority of your waking life as a music student will be occupied with the struggle for literacy.


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## HammerAndSickle (Aug 24, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> Oh and HammerandSickle, thanks for the explanation, its meaning just dawned on me this morning. You know, there needs to be (or if there is, I need to find it) an all encompassing theory book which also gives all the reasons why stuff is named like it is.



No problem. It's also the same reason Lydian Dominant, a mode of... something or other, is called Dominant. 

Truth be told, I see the way a lot of you are classifying these scales and while it's theoretically correct, I think it's selling the scales a bit short. If you want you can check out my guide to modes I posted in this forum a while back, but when you're playing something in Phrygian Dominant, you're not thinking of it's relation to Harmonic Minor, are you? It's the fifth mode, but aside from that E Phrygian Dominant has no relation to A Harmonic minor from a tonality standpoint.

I'm trying not to blatantly advertise that post I made  but in that thread I discuss how a lot of the time modes are explained _relatively_: C ionian is to D dorian is to E phrygian, etc. The scales that share the same notes, and are modes of each other, are categorized together. But I find a more practical approach is to view the _parallel_ modes. C ionian is to C dorian is to C phrygian. They don't have the same notes, but they have similar tonalities, at least in the sense that they're in "C" keys.

Truth be told, a lot of theory doesn't conform to this. The modes of C aren't all in the key of C, theoretically. But what I'm saying is, over a C major chord you can't play D dorian, or E phrygian. Because they have the same notes as C major, so over the backing chord they _are_ C major. But you _can _play C lydian. Or C mixolydian. Or C phrygian dominant. And those have different tonalities, and different notes, but are not altogether dissonant.

It's a more modern way of looking at it, rather than classical harmony.

EDIT: Also, because I wanna join in on the conversation and be one of the "cool kids" ...

I'm taking my first formal theory class next year (senior year of high school). It's advanced placement, so if I pass a test at the end of the year I'm eligible for college credits in music. I've taken guitar classes with my guitar teacher at the high school, but in class we never learn any theory. My teacher's always cool to ask about stuff, though, to the point where last year, I would routinely duck into his class throughout the day and ask questions. Like "Well, if I wanted to play dorian... what's a Dorian progression look like?" He helped me out a lot, but I had to get started on my own, I guess.

What I really wanna do is learn to sight-read/write music. Im hoping theory class will help me with that, because even though I already know the concepts it's practice that I need.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2008)

Your thread was very helpful, by the way. I struggle to explain modality to people, but can tell it when I see it. You wrote it out beautifully. A jazzy approach, but entirely in the vein of true modal music. It's great to have such knowledged people on this forum like you and TonalArchitect.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 24, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> Yeah, there are perhaps six music theory classes in my catalog. The rest is instrument training, bands, appreciation (what the hell) and history, not forgetting the ubiquitous applied music classes. Here's the one that really gets me:
> 
> *Music 191-
> Music Laboratory For Listening - 0.50 UNITS Rpt 3*
> ...


 
Im taking Music Appreciation as an elective! I wanted something fun among my other general ed stuff. Tis my first year, ya know? 

Wait, you have to pay for something like that? Okay, what does open entry/exit mean? And it says no credit, but what are Units?




SchecterWhore said:


> Yep, Advanced Music Theory Lab II sounds like Musicianship 1. Although, ear training is a semi-useful skill at the very least. The people coming out of those classes, though, from what I've seen, really know what the they're doing. Try singing a song and immediately know every note in the melody.


 

I wish I had a well-trained ear or perfect pitch, but I dont want to work at it because that doesnt really impede my composing, and I dont transcribe much or play by ear. So yeah, basically its an awesome skill that I would enjoy having but don't want to work for it because I can live without it.



SchecterWhore said:


> Well, if you ever need help with a concept, I'll try disseminating whatever I'm learning into this forum whenever it's brought up. Truth is that music theory classes can move pretty slowly because some concepts are so hard for people to grasp. It's all cumulative, too. If you have a major scale, you can figure out harmonies, and if you have harmonies, you can figure out modulation. If you can figure out modulation, you have half of Western music under your thumb. I think more people have problems with rhythmic subdivisions, and more likely than not, the majority of your waking life as a music student will be occupied with the struggle for literacy.


 
I would gladly accept your help with concepts! But since, Im not in any real music classes, I dont know if Ill get introduced to many new things, which makes me kinda sad.  But if you learn interesting things in your classes, please share them like you said (or, Im too cheap to take the damn classes myself, so tell me stuff. ) Also sharing and breaking down some of that knowledge could really be an excellent addition to these boards. 

It's odd to me that people have difficulty with subdivisions, since they're "divide by two" until you get to irrational rhythms and compound meter, which is a lazy-ass excuse/illusion which does away with writing triplet brackets all the time. Although I will say that viewing a two against three polyrhythm is _so_ much easier to understand when written in 6/8, since there are no brackets or markings, just even pulses. 



HammerAndSickle said:


> No problem. It's also the same reason Lydian Dominant, a mode of... something or other, is called Dominant.


 
I believe that it is the fourth mode of Melodic Minor. Dear God that confused me when I first learned that. I wondered "why isn't it in Harmonic Minor; Phrygian Dominant is?!?!?!?!"




HammerAndSickle said:


> Truth be told, I see the way a lot of you are classifying these scales and while it's theoretically correct, I think it's selling the scales a bit short. If you want you can check out my guide to modes I posted in this forum a while back, but when you're playing something in Phrygian Dominant, you're not thinking of it's relation to Harmonic Minor, are you? It's the fifth mode, but aside from that E Phrygian Dominant has no relation to A Harmonic minor from a tonality standpoint.
> 
> I'm trying not to blatantly advertise that post I made  but in that thread I discuss how a lot of the time modes are explained _relatively_: C ionian is to D dorian is to E phrygian, etc. The scales that share the same notes, and are modes of each other, are categorized together. But I find a more practical approach is to view the _parallel_ modes. C ionian is to C dorian is to C phrygian. They don't have the same notes, but they have similar tonalities, at least in the sense that they're in "C" keys.
> 
> ...




Thats a nice long post HammerAndSickle, I see youve been bearing witness to that figures gaze more than usual. But in seriousness I agree, your view of modes is much more practical. 

I like your way of viewing modes as scales derived from parent scales. An excellent thread. 

And if by cool kids you mean us music nerds, then yes, by all means, join the conversation!

About sight reading, I may start a thread on that soon (wondering if it's worth it in some cases). 



SchecterWhore said:


> It's great to have such knowledged people on this forum like you and TonalArchitect.



Thank you for considering us knowledgeable, but dont forget that you are an intelligent poster who knows his stuff.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 25, 2008)

Units and credits are synonymous. The class, you pay ten bucks for to go into a room in the music building and listen to music. You can leave whenever you like or not go at all. You could also do the exact same thing in the exact same room and not pay for it.

While I seem like a theory goblin, I really do have a minimal understanding. I just talk a lot.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 25, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> It's hard to get a good one of these. As you see, the key names are listed all around the circle, ordered in the number of accidentals they have. If you go clockwise, every tonic is a fifth away from the last one, hence the name. On the inside of the circle are the relative minor keys of those same major scales. Thus, the relative minor of C major is A minor, and F major is D minor, and so on.
> 
> Basically, this circle tells you how many sharps or flats are in a key, what the tonic of that key is, and if you know the order, which notes are sharp and which are flat. In a sharp key, this is the order that the notes are sharpened: FCGDAEB
> In a flat key, it goes backwards: BEADGCF
> ...





oh god please dont hate me for asking this. while i do understand what youre sayin here: 

"Now, the useful part: figure out the fifth of each minor key, and put that somewhere in the circle where you can tell its relation. You can do this by taking the triad construction of the minor key's tonic chord, and looking at what the fifth is. For Ami, ACE, for example, the fifth will be E. So, if you're playing A harmonic minor, and you want to be metal, you look at your circle of fifths, see that your phrygian dominant is going to be E, and you whip out your phrygian dominant shape, and slide it up to E."

so lets just say for example, that im playing a song that is in the key of D. So since this song is in the key of D, and I want it to be tonally minor, i would go and check out D minor's triad ( D F A ). I would extract from that D's 5th, A. 

and right there is where you lost me. so can you sort of re-iterate what you mean? Im sorry, i hate to ask so many questions, but im nowhere near where i need to be theory wise.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 25, 2008)

Never hesitate to ask questions. It's no burden to us. Heck, I enjoy helping if I can. You never ask, you never learn.

Let's go with your example and use the key of D minor.

Now what I believe he's saying is that if you're playing in harmonic minor, you take the fifth of the root (so A if you're in D, just like you said), then that is the name of the phrygian dominant that you use. 

That sounded awful, so here's the easy way. 

To figure out what phrygian dominant shape you use, take the fifth of the harmonic minor scale you're playing, and that's it. 

So D harmonic minor, then use A Phrygian dominant.

Let's say you're in C. Its fifth is G. 

So C harmonic minor, then use G phrygian dominant. 

He just showed you another way of telling you about phrygian dominant. You know it's the fifth mode, so go up a fifth from the root of the harmonic minor scale you're using, and then that's the root of its fifth mode. If I understood it, he said the same thing.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 26, 2008)

In the key of D minor, your phrygian dominant is going to be rooted on A. It's the fifth of whatever harmonic minor key you're in, if it's easier that way.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 26, 2008)

much easier. now, to swing ALLLLL this theory back to my original questions. 

How does one take this knowledge and apply appropriately within metal, without tryin to sound like Vai? Something simple that has a heavy hitting base to it, with Arabic flavorings for everyone.....

like my approach for writing is that ill sit down and start feeling a rhythmn out, then bust out the notebook of my D Harmonic Minor modes, and pick one out thats close to what im trying to play. Then I try to figure out what the base key im writing ( 99% of the time its D as im in Drop D and play my low D a LOT!), so on and so forth. is this a good habit to be in?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 26, 2008)

So long as you're playing around a D harm. minor progression, it'll be tonally centered on D, which is fine, it'll sound like you're in D, which, I think, is what you want.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 27, 2008)

I have mulled over what you have said for a while, but I'm still not entirely sure of what to say. 

By not sounding like Vai, do you mean that you are thinking of applying the harmonic minor scale to rhythm playing as opposed to lead?

I take it that you essentially want to play metal which includes that wonderfully exotic Arabic sound in it? 

Without getting too deep into composition and such, I would say that you already have all the knowledge that you need. If your main concern is infusing that sound into metal, then treat it no differently than the natural minor scale, just keep in mind that the exoticism of the scale comes from the interaction of the fifth, sixth, seventh, and tonic degrees. 

If you want to talk about songwriting and composition, then that's a whole new kettle of fish. I wrote a big, rambling post of doom about it in the thread "Building a Sense of Melody." But that post by no means covered every aspect of it.

If you do want to talk about composition, I would be glad to write many a post on the subject , but it might be best to start a new thread. 

I would like to leave you with two things. First about composition: There are some other approaches that you might find interesting, perhaps even helpful. I could give you some of them, but remember, the creative process is very personal, and if something works for you, then go with it. I would try not to say that one way is "bad" or "wrong" or that one approach is inherently superior to another. 

Second, about the D harmonic minor scale, or any scale for that matter. It is far better to learn the scale as it appears over the entire fretboard. If you're using those evil little blocks, be sure to connect them! 

Even better, learn every note on the guitar. I know it's time consuming, but you don't have to make an epic project out of it and learn them in three days. Take it a step at a time. If you play by tab, don't think sixth fret, first string, think Bb. Assuming it's in standard. This process might take years, but I believe that it is beneficial and completely worth it. 

But then again, no one's forcing you. Do what you want; music's supposed to be fun, so do what feels right. 

And if you want to ask about songwriting and composition, create a new thread. I'd be glad to contribute as I am able.


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## soldierkahn (Aug 28, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> I have mulled over what you have said for a while, but I'm still not entirely sure of what to say.
> 
> By not sounding like Vai, do you mean that you are thinking of applying the harmonic minor scale to rhythm playing as opposed to lead?
> 
> I take it that you essentially want to play metal which includes that wonderfully exotic Arabic sound in it?



yet again you nail it on the head. Im looking to apply the Harmonic Minor scale to Rhythm playing as opposed to lead for right now. ill try to think of some composition questions and then start a new thread for us to talk about it in there, so thx!


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## SteveDendura (Sep 15, 2008)

Wow. There are many pages of brillant questions and answers here. I certainly do not have the training Schecter and Tonal have, but the Harmonic Minor (especially the 5th mode) and Hungarian Minor have made a world of difference in my writing. 

Now you would like to know how to apply the scale to your rythmn? I use a progression sometimes that would follow that 5th mode. Root-b2nd-natural3. So try D-Eb-Gb. Then try adding other tones around that. And integrate fills that will add that raised 7th. 

So if you play D-Eb-Gb (and I'm sure you probably have), you're playing the 5th mode of G harmonic minor (which you learned from Schecter and Tonal earlier), Your 7th will be an F#. 

starting on that F# hammer on to G / pull off to F# then play Eb-D-Eb-F#-G-A. Something like that has the Egyptian sound. Another really cool thing to do is find all the half steps in the scale and just play those in different combinations. Like A-Bb, D-Eb, F#-G, and climbing up.


e---------------------------5- Just play around doing 
b------------------------7-8-- these half step intervals.
G---------------------7-8----- Try some as Chord progressions
D-------------4-5-7-8--------- as well.
A---------5-6-----------------
D------7-8--------------------


As far as chords and stuff go there's really not an actual "chord" that sounds Egyptian. But if you build chords out of the scale you can find cool Diminished ones that can really help shape the whole riff.

Hope this helps

Steve Wethy


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## TonalArchitect (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm still waiting for the composition thread.


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## SteveDendura (Sep 15, 2008)

Dude, if that's something where you can upload an audio track and watch it play the scored music, that'd be so awesome. I know it's a pain for me to try to score music and I write so many harmony parts or rythmn/lead parts it'd be really cool to see all that as you hear it. It'd also help others to hear the "rythmn" of the riffs and melodies.


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## TonalArchitect (Sep 16, 2008)

I might be missing something, but the composition thread is a hypothetical thing that SoldierKhan would make if he had questions about the songwriting process, which was an element of this thread which I feel cannot be addressed as something particular to the Harmonic minor scale. 

You want to see music as your composition plays before you? Get Guitar Pro. I use it; it allows you to enter either tablature and standard notation (and it fills in the other), also, there is midi (or RSE--realistic sound engine) playback which can give you a fair approximation of how it will sound. 

Also, someone should start more threads like this (or make the composition thread ).


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 16, 2008)

Well, if you're interested, there's a chart in my harmony text concerning diatonic progressions. We could rip that apart, and see if it makes for another close analysis thread.


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## TonalArchitect (Sep 16, 2008)

Well, why the hell not! 


(Note that this is not an excuse to slack on your transcribing efforts. Back to work drone! )


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## Stuart (Sep 19, 2008)

Guitar pro would be great for this sort of thing. I think this would especially aid this sort of dissection.


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## SteveDendura (Sep 19, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> You want to see music as your composition plays before you? Get Guitar Pro. I use it; it allows you to enter either tablature and standard notation (and it fills in the other), also, there is midi (or RSE--realistic sound engine) playback which can give you a fair approximation of how it will sound.


 
Thanks I'll have to try that.


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