# Axe fx vs plugins?



## viifox (Jun 21, 2020)

I'm an amp guy, so i don't have much experience with either, but i was wondering how well the Neural DSP amp sims hold up to something like the axe fx? Huge difference?


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## budda (Jun 21, 2020)

What are you requiring from the gear?


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## viifox (Jun 21, 2020)

budda said:


> What are you requiring from the gear?


Mainly distorted tones that sound clear and amp like.

Honestly though? I've been using the Omega sim and am quite impressed with it, especially for how little it cost me. So I'm just wondering if an axe fx would be a huge step up tonewise. 

I'm just plugging straight into my M4 interface, btw.


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## Steinmetzify (Jun 21, 2020)

This is an opinion thing. 

Had an Axe II, was amazing at first, I lost 12 hours day 1 going thru presets. 

End of the day, I wasn’t playing as much as I would have liked and it bugged me having a $2k piece of gear sitting on my desk not being used. 

After that I went Fryette GP/DI and then to a Kemper, with Mercuriall plugins playing a large role alongside. 

Eventually went back to the GP/DI and some pedals and the Mercuriall/Neural stuff. Dig it and see no reason to jones for an Axe again. 

Definitely one of those YMMV things though. Any chance you could try one out?


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## trem licking (Jun 21, 2020)

if you are just using it to record on your PC, absolutely go plugin. way more convenient and sounds/feels just as good. I'd only consider a modeler if playing live and/or away from a computer


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## Masoo2 (Jun 21, 2020)

I'm a 100% plugin user and I'd take an Axe FX over plugins any day of the week. the time I've had behind friends' Axe FXs (and even Kempers) have shown me how comparatively quick and simple it is to make quality tones with them compared to plugins, not to mention having drastically less noise than my setup and not having to deal with the variable of quality of audio interface/DI. also, the amount of _quality_ options is insane. the Axe FX 3 has like, what 50 fantastic high gain amp models? not to mention the great overdrives, reverbs, and _actually usable pitch shifters_.

the only plugins I've truly felt at home with are Overloud TH3/TH-U, POD Farm, and EZMix 2. not because the quality of modeling (though TH3/TH-U sound great), but because I understand the plugins and how to toneshape within them well enough that it's not a struggle. I was _really_ disappointed with the NeuralDSP stuff, I've tried all of them and the only ones that came close to decent was the Plini and Nolly. The others, specifically the "amp" ones (Nameless, NTS, Omega) feel too raw for my tastes and I hate how they approach cabinets (just give me a list of like 50 IRs, I don't want to have to sit and change 20 slight parameters to try and get a decent tone). with TH3 or the Axe FX I was able to get a mix ready tone in minutes, with the Neural stuff it took tons of extra plugins to tame the harshness, even the levels, etc...

basically, I want a mix-ready solution, not a "real amp in a box that responds and sounds like a amp in the room," and I felt that the Axe FX was the quickest at doing that. one day I'll buy one, maybe an FM3 or an Axe FX III.

if you like the plugins, stick with them. they're cheap, can be edited in a mix, and run off of your computer rather than a dedicated unit. but I'd still take an Axe FX if I could justify the cost.


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## viifox (Jun 21, 2020)

steinmetzify said:


> This is an opinion thing.
> 
> Had an Axe II, was amazing at first, I lost 12 hours day 1 going thru presets.
> 
> ...


No way to try one out.


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## viifox (Jun 21, 2020)

If i were to get something like the FM3, would i use that as my interface, or would that go into my M4?


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## Steinmetzify (Jun 21, 2020)

viifox said:


> No way to try one out.



That sucks.



viifox said:


> If i were to get something like the FM3, would i use that as my interface, or would that go into my M4?



Just checked specs, looks like you can but it’d depend on whether you liked the pres in the m4 better or not.

When I used it I ran it into my Duet, I liked the way it sounded better.


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## viifox (Jun 21, 2020)

steinmetzify said:


> That sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you like the FM3 compared to the Neural sims?


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## drgamble (Jun 22, 2020)

Just want to throw this out there. I use an Axe Fx III for all of my recordings. The problem with plugins is latency. If you can record all guitars at the very beginning that is cool, plugins will probably work for you. Once you start getting into higher buffers, the plugin does you no good. I use a Clarett interface with the Axe plugged into it. I can always add stuff, change stuff, whatever and use the zero latency monitor off of the Clarett. I do most of my writing with my DAW and don't play in a band anymore, so it might be different for me. With 8 scenes available on the Axe, I can almost always get all of the different tones for any guitars that I need in a song. I use the authentic controls setting for the III and it usually takes no time to come up with a tone. After spending many years with the Axe, I've found out what I like and what I don't.


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## Steinmetzify (Jun 22, 2020)

viifox said:


> How do you like the FM3 compared to the Neural sims?



Never used it, I had an Axe II.


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## t1337Dude (Jun 22, 2020)

drgamble said:


> Just want to throw this out there. I use an Axe Fx III for all of my recordings. The problem with plugins is latency. If you can record all guitars at the very beginning that is cool, plugins will probably work for you. Once you start getting into higher buffers, the plugin does you no good. I use a Clarett interface with the Axe plugged into it. I can always add stuff, change stuff, whatever and use the zero latency monitor off of the Clarett. I do most of my writing with my DAW and don't play in a band anymore, so it might be different for me. With 8 scenes available on the Axe, I can almost always get all of the different tones for any guitars that I need in a song. I use the authentic controls setting for the III and it usually takes no time to come up with a tone. After spending many years with the Axe, I've found out what I like and what I don't.


I've never experienced latency with plugins (yet), but AFAIK you can use an audio interface to monitor for plugins no differently than you would w/ the Axe FX. My Scarlett Rose Solo has a monitor option built-in for that very reason. Of course, I'm aware that the Axe FX has many advantages - I'm just not sure if this is necessarily one of them.


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## viifox (Jun 22, 2020)

drgamble said:


> Just want to throw this out there. I use an Axe Fx III for all of my recordings. The problem with plugins is latency. If you can record all guitars at the very beginning that is cool, plugins will probably work for you. Once you start getting into higher buffers, the plugin does you no good. I use a Clarett interface with the Axe plugged into it. I can always add stuff, change stuff, whatever and use the zero latency monitor off of the Clarett. I do most of my writing with my DAW and don't play in a band anymore, so it might be different for me. With 8 scenes available on the Axe, I can almost always get all of the different tones for any guitars that I need in a song. I use the authentic controls setting for the III and it usually takes no time to come up with a tone. After spending many years with the Axe, I've found out what I like and what I don't.


Haven't had any real latency issues with Omega. The key is selecting the appropriate buffer size, while making sure you aren't tapping too heavy into ram resources.

For example, freezing tracks and updating the sample pool in Kontakt libraries when necessary will help free up resources, which will allow you to use a buffer size that doesn't pose any latency issues.

This method works for my workflow quite well, because I first lay the drum tracks down, then the guitars with a low buffer size. After that I can boost the buffer size, freeze the tracks, and then add any other instruments if need be.

I also have 64gb of ram on my machine, so plenty to go around.

Regardless, your are correct in that latency can be an issue with plugins, especially if you don't have much ram to begin with, or don't know what you're doing in your DAW.


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## Jeff (Jun 22, 2020)

viifox said:


> If i were to get something like the FM3, would i use that as my interface, or would that go into my M4?



I wouldn’t get an FM3 until they work all the manufacturing and software bugs out.


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## viifox (Jun 22, 2020)

Jeff said:


> I wouldn’t get an FM3 until they work all the manufacturing and software bugs out.


That bad, huh?


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## Jeff (Jun 22, 2020)

viifox said:


> That bad, huh?



Can be, depending on which you get. Mine froze frequently, squealed on high gain tones, and the USB recording was useless.


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## viifox (Jun 23, 2020)

Jeff said:


> Can be, depending on which you get. Mine froze frequently, squealed on high gain tones, and the USB recording was useless.


And to think you were put on a wait list for that. What a drag!


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## sleewell (Jun 23, 2020)

Jeff said:


> Can be, depending on which you get. Mine froze frequently, squealed on high gain tones, and the USB recording was useless.




yikes. did you get a refund?


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## Emperoff (Jun 23, 2020)

I've found that a dedicated hardware unit (modeller or not) helps against option paralysis and makes you play more. There is a neverending sea of plugins that will only get bigger over time. Sticking to what you have and getting shit done is much more rewarding than trying new plugin releases every week, and will make your sound and mix better because you'll get to know your gear and how to work with it.


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## MSS (Jun 23, 2020)

I recently purchased the Neural DSP Abasi and Fortin Nameless plugins. They are outstanding. However, they do not have the same amp feel that the Axe III/FM 3 has. This may or may not be important to you. The Axe models how an amp feels and sounds - like amp bloom and dynamics better IMO. This is readily apparent when you look at the wave forms. My preference is for the Axe but the Neural products sound great and I would not lose sleep over using them in a mix.


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## Jeff (Jun 23, 2020)

sleewell said:


> yikes. did you get a refund?



Yeah, full refund.


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## Niccho (Jun 24, 2020)

If you're planning on using it as your main equipment on recording or live shows, then Axefx, no question. If you only plan to make demos or want something for jamming at home, I couldn't justify paying such vast amounts of money on an Axefx, even used. This is coming from a poor person with no amp or axefx, but a ton of plugins which I use to make my music at home. I love my vast selection of plugins and for the price of an Axefx, I would rather buy a guitar or 2, unless I joined a band with regular gigs and stuff.


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## laxu (Jun 25, 2020)

Hardware pros:

Lowest latency.
No need to worry about input quality as it is matched to the hardware.
Extensive connection options.
Not tied to computer.
Easy to move around.
Physical controls.
Easier to setup footswitching with MIDI or controllers specifically made for the hardware unit.
Hardware cons:

Hardware UIs are not always the best. I hated using the one on the Axe-Fx Std and 2, just used the software editor 99% of the time.
Expensive.
Limitations on simultaneous fx. With plugins you can just throw more horsepower at the problem.
May have limitations on MIDI control.
VST plugin pros:

Less expensive.
UIs made to be operated with mouse/keyboard.
A lot of different plugins to choose from.
Mix and match different plugins easily.
Main limitation is your CPU.
VST plugin cons:

UIs made to be operated with mouse/keyboard. Picking up your mouse every time you want to change stuff is pretty annoying.

MIDI mapping for using say a knob controller does not always work well.
Using it a gig usually means you are limited by the capabilities of your laptop and issues with that are more likely than with dedicated hardware.
Need an audio interface for I/O. Audio interface quality has an effect on how well it works with guitar input.
Needs a DAW or VST host so it is less plug-and-play.
I currently own a Line6 Helix Floor and Helix Native, which I use through my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen. The Focusrite is the main difference in the sound quality and generally you need to adjust input and output levels more with the plugin than with the hardware.

Having owned the Axe-Fx 2 for a long time, I don't feel Fractal's modeling is significantly better than the top plugins right now, which to me would be Helix Native, Scuffham S-Gear, NeuralDSP plugins and Mercurial stuff. Out of these I would say the NeuralDSP amps are more opinionated rather than trying to replicate some particular amp. Seems their main goal is good sound and sensible features and they do that really well, I find them satisfying to play. If your main concern is pinpoint accuracy to whatever amp then you might want something else.


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 3, 2021)

Axe 3 mkii user
I bought it thinking every preset would blow my mind
But not the case
It’s actually quit hard dialing in a believable tone, other than solid state cleans and heavy Metallica stuff but something like a Dumble or a Dirty Boy (Blues Sarecino fame) not happening 
I’ve got 46 years studio and stage so my tube amp harem is bountiful and my Roland, Gallien Krueger 250rl and some old Sun Alphas and Betas fill the Solid state wall also through in my AdA mp1s preamps, both tube and SS power amps and Radial gear for reamping 
And with all those toys I still go back to 
NI Guitar rig 5-6 for in the box tracking,
Apollo interface and a iMac Pro gives me near zero latency with anything I use.
I run the Axe to the Apollo using toslink/spdif super clean digital,
All Mogomi cords
I run Protools, Studio one and Ableton 
And although the Axe is an amazing unit with unlimited routing, FX and programing capabilities that I will keep and use live,
For recording its Guitar Rig or Blue Cat amp sim both free!


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## budda (Mar 3, 2021)

Might I ask how you're building presets then?


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## BMFan30 (Mar 3, 2021)

laxu said:


> Hardware pros:
> 
> Lowest latency.
> No need to worry about input quality as it is matched to the hardware.
> ...


You win the thread sir, thank you so much for making this super detailed & informative post. I really appreciate it! 

I've been considering all sorts of options for myself lately so I'm not quite sure if staying on this lawn would be greener than another one so analysis like this helps.


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

That’s kind of the point, I’m not
The idea of building presets is a relatively new idea
When I ran my 100watt jcm800 stack from 80-92
The tone was a done deal it was just a matter of Wah of choice, some mxr stomps and everything else was handled off stage,
We just concentrated on playing because the choices were limited in the genre there was no building until the rack days
But referring to Guitar Rig try “love of god” “delay 51” or the “Malmsteen” presets there nothing to build, the sounds are just there with a bit of tweaking to fit your pickups and near fields
In addition when I build a preset with the
Axe 3, I run out of cpu?? What’s that all about? they talk about all the power of the keystone processors and I’m running out of juice, that’s crazy, the whole box was designed for one purpose
It’s a digital emulation of tube amps and effects, most powerful of its kind
It’s essentially a plug-in housed with its own motherboard and processors much like the Apollo interface construct as to be self sufficient
But I think the live application is its only real strength but I know our techs don’t want my over processed feed, and what good is stereo on stage?
I leave you with this
I can run a sim plug-in UAD2 or native on one of the Mac pros with protools HD and keep adding all the effects, utilities, controls and outboard gear without a little cpu warning light popping on,
And RE-amping is as easy as changing the patch using any emulation plug.
But here I am $5000 invested between the Axe 3 mkii, fc12 ect and when tracking it sounds just as digital as my plugs
Because it simply is


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## dhgrind (Mar 4, 2021)

Depends on the sound you want. I had the fm3 and a while back had the axe2. 

I recently got the stl tonehub plug-in with the Taylor young pack. Which for me really nails what I was looking to get sound wise. Dude records bands like drain, gulch, slow bleed, vitriol, and twitching tongues. 

I’ve since sold off my fm3. I do still have a physical amp with pedals etc but for quick at home recordings I think plugins do the trick. 

so perhaps assess what bands you like and how they achieve their sound or an approximation of that sound. 

lastly, I’ve never been impressed by the solo sound of modelers or plugins but in a mix they sound fantastic and generally for myself were easier to fit into a mix than recording a guitar amp.


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## budda (Mar 4, 2021)

@Mark Ferrizzi that doesnt add up at all.

All the factory presets minus a couple run 65% and run 3x as much as mine do.

Again I gotta know how you're building these presets. Its very hard to max out cpu on these. With the signal chain you described, you'd be at 50% maybe 60%.

If you want a dumble tone, just select a trainwreck as your amp block?

Are you using axe edit?

Again, something is very amiss.


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## Deadpool_25 (Mar 4, 2021)

I don’t have as much experience as some of these guys but I have NDSP plugins and an FM3.

I was playing the A: Plini (maybe it was Nolly?) one day and enjoying it just fine. Then I plugged into the FM3 through the same monitors and noticed an immediate and significant improvement in feel and a smaller improvement in tone. I notice that easily, but others say they sound and feel the same.

The NDSP plugins sound great and feel pretty good. For me the FM3 (and by extension the AFXIII) sounds and feels better.

There are a ton more amp/effect options with the Fractal gear but that may or may not be important to you.

Because of the way GAS works, it’s likely you’re just going to have to get an FM3 and see what you think.


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

Try zenrigs morphing presets 
I run a mission expression pedals
One with a spring for Wah 
One regular for “morphing”
Heel down gives you one sound and toe down gets the dirty chug, or whatever 
It was a Leon Todd recommendation cost just a few bucks but I’m floating just below max cpu the light is on when I’m running these,
And since they throw in a template I’ve been building similar stuff
Zenrigs site- there’s a demo with Leon 
I’d just send you a sys but they make you agree to a copyright thing
And I’ve been down that road before with “free” waves plugins and got burned


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## budda (Mar 4, 2021)

A morphing preset wont push the dsp. The only factory preset that comes close is the [email protected] one. An expression pedal wont add 15% cpu. I run a few modifiers on my ambient presets, so I know this first hand.

Post a screencap of your own preset?


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## RevDrucifer (Mar 4, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> That’s kind of the point, I’m not
> The idea of building presets is a relatively new idea
> When I ran my 100watt jcm800 stack from 80-92
> The tone was a done deal it was just a matter of Wah of choice, some mxr stomps and everything else was handled off stage,
> ...



I’m assuming you’re in Europe or Australia?


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

And there are obviously blocks still turned off


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 4, 2021)




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## budda (Mar 4, 2021)

Have you built a preset from scratch? You need all those blocks?


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 4, 2021)

Of course I’m not a complete fractal newbie
But my point was I can replicate that 20 times over on my Mac 
Choose the daw using plugs and they sound just as good if not better lots of processor power to spare
In the studio tracking domain 

I haven’t used it live but players I have worked with are getting drowned out going frfr live considering all the verb fractal throws around 
and when working with a stage tech are running pretty dry and the Axe dry amp tones are not great
Many of the working endorsement players (all the famous players in the stars Who uses fractal spread) have them racked for some fx but have been going back to tube
Steve via for example initially showed favor for his Axe but check out the most recent touring rig, for any artist actually there is not that many relying on these things for modeling and fx


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## budda (Mar 4, 2021)

Any poor sounds are not the fault of the axe fx  and a lot of players are using them live and in studio.

But go off.


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## nickgray (Mar 4, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> But my point was I can replicate that 20 times over on my Mac



Well of course, it's a completely different CPU, I'm not sure why you're so surprised. Modelers are running on DSP chips with ultra low (1-2ms) roundtrip latency. General purpose CPUs with OS overhead are way worse at dealing with realtime audio though, you won't be able to get 20 such rigs in your DAW running at 2ms roundtrip.



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> and the Axe dry amp tones are not great



Sorry, but if you can't get a good tone with pretty much any half decent modeler or a plugin with a simple "boost -> amp -> IR -> EQ -> maybe a touch of reverb" chain, then you're just not good at getting tones. IR is the biggest contributor anyways. You can get great tones with old LePou plugs even (they don't behave as accurately as more advanced sims, especially in the power amp department, but they still can be made to sound really good).


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## budda (Mar 4, 2021)

@Mark Ferrizzi build a preset dude.

In1-drive block-amp (JCM800)-cab (G12T75 SM57 + G12T75 121)-reverb-delay. As I said, any tonal shortcomings are not the fault of the unit.

If you haven't, go through the manual as well. More than once is recommended.

Most people don't touch 60% on presets. The one you posted is a "this is what it can do" preset, not a "this is normal" preset fwiw.


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

Thanks Buddha,
I will go over the manual and I get your “what this can do” point
I just think for the bread it should be capable of more, more parametric control using scene controllers for example,
With all the elements in all the blocks and all the sub screens for everything from preamp/power amp builds to diode choices to pre/post EQs I can only control 4 parameters per scene 
Meaning only 4 controls that can be altered over 8 scenes in a given preset
Is that correct?


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

isn’t guitar rig a modeler?
I don’t seem to have any issues getting a good tone with that 
Players like yourself seem to get personally offended when someone casts any dispersions on the fractal gear.
Most players need to qualify there way overpriced toys
Don’t get me wrong I’m an owner and user of the same toy
but I’m being honest about what my multi thousand dollar investment can and can not do compared to my free plug-ins

I’ve been in this business for decades now and there’s still nothing in today’s market that can replace the real deal but for simplicity of tracking the plug-ins are more than fine, they are comparable and in some cases superior to what the axe gives me in the studio


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## narad (Mar 5, 2021)

I'm not even a fractal player but if you're praising GuitarRig over an Axe-FXIII, there are issues not directly related to either of those products.


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## budda (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Thanks Buddha,
> I will go over the manual and I get your “what this can do” point
> I just think for the bread it should be capable of more, more parametric control using scene controllers for example,
> With all the elements in all the blocks and all the sub screens for everything from preamp/power amp builds to diode choices to pre/post EQs I can only control 4 parameters per scene
> ...



It is capable of more  that's why your posts have been very odd to me.

I don't know what you mean "parametric control using scene controllers" - but look up what scene controllers do in the manual (I don't use them yet).

You can control any parameter per scene, which is why scenes are awesome. And with nearly every block having 4 channels, which you can switch per scene, you have very extensive control. Not to mention modifiers, which you can run something like 16 modifiers at once.

Also read the wiki: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...xt=The Axe-Fx III provides 6 Control Switches.


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## laxu (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> isn’t guitar rig a modeler?
> I don’t seem to have any issues getting a good tone with that



Yes it is, but one that is not particularly good at modeling anything really. It has a nice UI but the software itself is like a decade old at this point (and wasn't great even when it was released) and the GR6 update was mainly polishing that old thing.

If you are happy with the tones/feel you get from it then it's of course fine.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Mar 5, 2021)

I got an Axefx3 ~1 month ago. For a total noob like me, getting a « good » tone out of a NeuralDSP plugin was easier since all Neural amps basically behave the same, i.e. sound decent with everything at noon.

After 5 minutes using the Axe3, I facepalmed and realized that it models real amps, which I don’t have much experience with.

After learning how a Mesa Mark IIC+ works, I had little trouble getting a good tone out of the Axe3 model of that amp. Same for other amps.

Also, IRs go a long way (similar as for plugins).

That’s basic stuff, but I’m a basic guy.

I have a feeling a lot of the complaints about fractal modeling are due to similar situations, i.e. know the gear you’re using.


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## Emperoff (Mar 5, 2021)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> I got an Axefx3 ~1 month ago. For a total noob like me, getting a « good » tone out of a NeuralDSP plugin was easier since all Neural amps basically behave the same, i.e. sound decent with everything at noon.
> 
> After 5 minutes using the Axe3, I facepalmed and realized that it models real amps, which I don’t have much experience with.
> 
> ...



Plenty of people don't realize that. For example the Triaxis model on the Axe-Fx kinda requires you to know how to dial a Mark _*AND*_ knowing how the Triaxis works. Meaning presence at noon on the Axe-Fx equals presence at 10 on the Triaxis.


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## chipchappy (Mar 5, 2021)

I used plugins for a long time. Got the Axe FX II, it's a night and day difference.

You need to do a lot of EQ, compression and gate work to get them to sound ok in the mix (if youre doing distorted tones). As mentioned before, latency and noise can be an issue as well. A lot of that comes down to your interface, but using plugins wont help the matter. The only plus was that you could edit your tone after the fact since its a DI signal.

Axe FX sounds like a real amp, doesnt take long to get to sound good, has a software editor that works just like your plugins, and can be taken anywhere.

If you're trying to save money go plugin, but plugins _definitely_ do not sound or feel as real as the Axe FX


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

A good point but you said yourself your not an amp guy
And “good tone “ in subjective 
If you want pedal to the metal chug then yeah the axe will do, the same for solid state super cleans
But try to dial in something that sounds like Blues Sarecenos Dirty Boy, or anything with a attack clipped compression, that occurs naturally with tube amps
I own a Mesa JP-2c Mark 2II+ and I don’t care what anyone says I’ve not heard 1 axe pre that’s even in the same ballpark


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## budda (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> A good point but you said yourself your not an amp guy
> And “good tone “ in subjective
> If you want pedal to the metal chug then yeah the axe will do, the same for solid state super cleans
> But try to dial in something that sounds like Blues Sarecenos Dirty Boy, or anything with a attack clipped compression, that occurs naturally with tube amps
> I own a Mesa JP-2c Mark 2II+ and I don’t care what anyone says I’ve not heard 1 axe pre that’s even in the same ballpark



I sold a 83 jcm800 2203, orange ppc412, fender blackface twin RI and a pedalboard.

At no point have I missed any of it.

Again, if you arent getting a tone you wanr a) read the manual b) post asking for help on the fractal forum and c) read the manual. The gear isnt the limitation.


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## chipchappy (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> I own a Mesa JP-2c Mark 2II+ and I don’t care what anyone says I’ve not heard 1 axe pre that’s even in the same ballpark



Try adding more blocks, that might help


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## budda (Mar 5, 2021)

chipchappy said:


> Try adding more blocks, that might help



Given Cliff modelled it after JP's personal amp, I find Mark's claim to be a bit suspicious.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> And “good tone “ in subjective



We’re arguing preferences about sensory perceptions, it’s subjective.



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> I own a Mesa JP-2c Mark 2II+ and I don’t care what anyone says I’ve not heard 1 axe pre that’s even in the same ballpark



JP himself finds Fractal’s JP2C models « pretty close ».

I’ve played both the real thing and fractal’s models and don’t hear much difference. Mind you, I wasn’t the one turning the knobs on both.

Metallica have used the Fractal’s IIC+ model for years.

I’m sure you’ll get a better tone once you get more familiar with the unit.


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

Pretty close?
Is that in the same way that a squire is like a American standard
If it was close he would be using the fractal


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## bassisace (Mar 5, 2021)

I don’t get that you don’t get that your argument is invalid because you admitted to not having read the manual and not being an experienced Fractal user.

People have given you constructive ways to get better at it. What more do you want?


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

You had to sell off to pay fractal!
You may not regret those sales now (if they happened at all) but when the axe 4 and then the 5 are released you will, because unless you have unlimited funds I’m sure you will want the latest fractal offerings
Maybe the display will be 5cm bigger and the logo will glow faster
Or it won’t hit the red zone on a morph patch, who knows 
I own a ‘81 2205 stack and it will always be a piece of rock and roll historyNo firmware no 0s and 1s
Nothing sounds like it live certainly not my axe 3


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

Cliff modeled all the amps it doesn’t mean they sound like the real deal


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## bassisace (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> You had to sell off to pay fractal!



Nope, I don’t own one but used my bandmate’s for about a year. 

Again, I don’t get your endgame here. Real amps are great, nobody argues against that.


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## MrWulf (Mar 5, 2021)

Its not even pretty close. JP himself has given the seal of approval to Axe's IIC2+ as per Cliff. And again if you think Guitar Rig > Axe FX then there's a lot of problem going on. And lets not pretend Axe FX is some metal modeller when a lot of its amps are clean, low gain amps.


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## budda (Mar 5, 2021)

This dude joined just to trash the axe fx.

Incredible.


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## chipchappy (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Cliff modeled all the amps it doesn’t mean they sound like the real deal



actually it does!

Learn how to use it first. Then come back!


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## noise in my mind (Mar 5, 2021)

I guarantee this guy could tell difference between the axe fx and a real amp in the mix.


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## narad (Mar 5, 2021)




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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

Then what’s the basis for your comment
If it’s expensive it must be good?
You honestly don’t play fractal but thought you’d just jump on the band wagon
Interesting crowd


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

Could you tell between axe and a plug-in in a mix?


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## bassisace (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Then what’s the basis for your comment
> If it’s expensive it must be good?
> You honestly don’t play fractal but thought you’d just jump on the band wagon
> Interesting crowd



You’re either trolling or clueless. Either way, I’ll bite. If you actually read what I wrote: I played with an axefx for a year, while not owning it. 

Maybe spend less time posting and more time reading the manual.


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## Mark Ferrizzi (Mar 5, 2021)

Endgame is to make music, challenge the status quo that keeps metal buried below Justin Bieber and Billie Eilish
Every project I’ve worked on (guitarists) sounds the same
In the last nine years I’ve worked with 33 metal core and progressive metal (talented kids good bands all ASCAP and BMI all funded and “signed”) in 4 east coast and 3 west coast US shops
Worked mastering house because the money was decent
And out of those bands that stayed together 0 acts got notoriety they just got billed
Axe Fx to me represents the same guitar sounds reverberating in my head for years, nobody’s shaking the tree
Stop drinking the cool aid, these toys will not make you play better
Everybody sharing the same presets and tuning down there 7s and 8s

I knew Kato K after Berkeley (many Don’t know him but they should so look him up) and when he was working Water studios in NJ before he passed he worked with everyone MCR, some others so when Taylor Ms band was at their peak they couldn’t get arrested and they had clout lots of acts don’t, great writers, producers and A&R reps most would kill for , just nothing new

that’s all for me when I feel I have to start name dropping to make a point I’ve over stayed my welcome, good luck fractal heads, watch the cool aid


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## bassisace (Mar 5, 2021)

Maybe your experience is not representative of the industry as a whole.



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Stop drinking the cool aid, these toys will not make you play better



I have yet to meet someone who thinks that. Maybe some people actually get tones that they like out of a unit you don’t like and know little about.

Not meaning to be sarcastic, just food for thought.


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## MrWulf (Mar 5, 2021)

Man, lots of strawman around here. You claimed that Guitar Rig is better than AxeFX, then slowly moving the goalpost when ppl pointed out its capability and how artists liked its modelling, then turned around and accused subpar players (while also accusing everyone who replied against you as Fractal head) of using AxeFX as a toy and because of it "every guitar sounds the same".

I dont even have an AxeFX and this is ridiculous.


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## narad (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> that’s all for me when I feel I have to start name dropping to make a point I’ve over stayed my welcome, good luck fractal heads, watch the cool aid



It's not bad that you have to start name dropping to make a point, it's just bad when you think name dropping does make a point (or at least any relevant to axe-fx vs. plug-ins). Doesn't matter who you were friends with when you're trying to talk about the pros/cons of a device...


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## chipchappy (Mar 5, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Endgame is to make music, challenge the status quo that keeps metal buried below Justin Bieber and Billie Eilish



lol not at all what the OP was asking for take your weird persona grudges elsewhere



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Every project I’ve worked on (guitarists) sounds the same


Thats a you problem



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> In the last nine years I’ve worked with 33 metal core and progressive metal (talented kids good bands all ASCAP and BMI all funded and “signed”) in 4 east coast and 3 west coast US shops
> Worked mastering house because the money was decent
> And out of those bands that stayed together 0 acts got notoriety they just got billed


 
Cool, who cares, i've never heard of you.



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Axe Fx to me represents the same guitar sounds reverberating in my head for years,



So that means it's a tool you should find useful!



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Stop drinking the cool aid, these toys will not make you play better



No one has ever said that besides you



Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Everybody sharing the same presets and tuning down there 7s and 8s



Who? You clearly don't know how to use the tools you have. You're new to it! It's OK!


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## laxu (Mar 6, 2021)

The question you always need to ask in a "Modeler X does not sound like tube amp Y" debate is "How are you amplifying them?"

To compare a tube amp to its modeled counterpart, ideally your signal chain is one of these:

Tube amp -> loadbox -> cab sims -> quality studio monitors or headphones. Modeler -> same cab sims -> same output devices.
Tube amp -> guitar cab. Modeler -> as neutral sounding poweramp as possible -> same guitar cab.
Then you need to volume match them with a decibel meter.

Even in both of these setups the quality of the loadbox in 1 and the quality of the modeler poweramp in 2 will have some effect on the final tone and feel so it's actually a bit difficult to compare the real thing to the modeled one.

Ultimately for end users it's largely irrelevant if a modeler sounds exactly like some specific tube amp. None of us can try the exact tube amp that was modeled and just having the same model it is not going to be 100% identical as pots and components have variance. The goal is to get a tone and feel that you enjoy using. I never had trouble getting that from my Axe-Fx 2, which is why I used Fractal gear for close to a decade. I jumped off that train because they did not do the kind of user interface improvements that I was looking for when the Axe-Fx 3 was released.

There's a lot of good gear out there nowadays and there are more tools than ever to manage the volume of your tube amps if you want to go that route. I sometimes contemplate if I could just do with a couple of pedals but then remember how good my Helix Floor sounds just for effects and how convenient it is to switch my amps features with a single press of a footswitch. I will probably always have some modeler around just to play with different sounds because I don't want to end up one of those guys who have 20 amps and the cable hell that comes from trying to make good use of them.


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## budda (Mar 6, 2021)

The red flag here (besides the obvious) is buddy thinks metal should or ever would be as big as pop music.

That is not what metal is about . 

I was polite even though your trolling is obvious, now Im just bored.


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## nickgray (Mar 6, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Every project I’ve worked on (guitarists) sounds the same
> 
> Everybody sharing the same presets and tuning down there 7s and 8s
> 
> when I feel I have to start name dropping to make a point



Dude, you've made more than enough points already 

And as usual, not a single audio demo is provided


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## noise in my mind (Mar 6, 2021)

Mark Ferrizzi said:


> Could you tell between axe and a plug-in in a mix?


Depends what plugin. With modern plugins, not a chance.


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## MrWulf (Mar 6, 2021)

You know, his point about challenging the status quo of Justin Bieber and Billie Eillish sort of struck me as absolutely stupidity on display and a perfect representation to why metal is self contradictory. Everytime a new trend/sound come up it is viciously gatekeeped by the old guards or true fans of metal who think when THEIR day of was true metal and everything after the late 90s is not metal anymore. Nu metal? Metalcore? Djent? There isnt a single new genre innovation that was mainstream, or at least trendy within the new generation of musician looked down upon by people like you who think you are the arbiter of tastes and everything has to be your way or the highway.

It has been nearly 2 decades since then and the reason that metal isnt challenging the status quo is because of you, not others.

But anyway, AxeFX is cool, the only problem is you, dude.


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## technomancer (Mar 6, 2021)

Time to stop feeding the troll...


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## Mr_Marty (Mar 6, 2021)

I own a Kemper, Helix, Atomic Amplifire and a Boss GT1000. And probably a couple others I've forgotten about. I also own Guitar Rig, Mecurial Spark, various NDSP plugs, Scuffham S-Gear and some others I've probably forgotten about.

I also own an Axe III.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, touches the Axe III. Anyone who thinks Guitar Rig is better is either a troll or has damaged hearing. Of the stuff I listed Guitar Rig is at the bottom of the list IMO.

Axe III is the complete package. Best amp tones, best effects. Full stop.


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## nickgray (Mar 6, 2021)

Guitar Rig was never even particularly good, it had a great interface (and still the best all-in-one VST interface I think, TH-U and Amplitube are way more awkward), but sound wise it wasn't that great even back in the day. Impulse responses started to become a thing in late 2000s, iirc, and LePou plugins (which are still good sounding) were available in early 2010s. In comparison, GR4 was released in 2009 and GR5 in 2011. Axe Fx Ultra was released in 2007, and Axe Fx 2 in 2011. POD HD500 in 2010, I think.


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## Willyjacksonjs22-7 (Mar 6, 2021)

Mr_Marty said:


> I own a Kemper, Helix, Atomic Amplifire and a Boss GT1000. And probably a couple others I've forgotten about. I also own Guitar Rig, Mecurial Spark, various NDSP plugs, Scuffham S-Gear and some others I've probably forgotten about.
> 
> I also own an Axe III.
> 
> ...


I’ll trust your opinion. I could not decide between a new audio interface with good di or an fm3. So I’ll go with the fm3 and see how it goes.


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## Emperoff (Mar 6, 2021)

Willyjacksonjs22-7 said:


> I’ll trust your opinion. I could not decide between a new audio interface with good di or an fm3. So I’ll go with the fm3 and see how it goes.



Considering you don't have an audio interface already (and you live in the US) the FM3 would be my recommendation as well.

I settled on Neural stuff instead since the FM3 is 1500$ in Europe and I already have a nice Audio interface with good DI. I just need 4-5 different tones anyway.


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## Willyjacksonjs22-7 (Mar 7, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Considering you don't have an audio interface already (and you live in the US) the FM3 would be my recommendation as well.
> 
> I settled on Neural stuff instead since the FM3 is 1500$ in Europe and I already have a nice Audio interface with good DI. I just need 4-5 different tones anyway.


Yeah I don’t have my Scarlett anymore. I sold it because I heard that a better interface will give a better dynamic response. So it’s all down to the interface and computer specs too.


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