# What's the longest scale ERG you've played? Anyone play anything over 30"?



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2017)

I want to get a longer scale instrument, with guitar string spacing, to allow me to tune lower. But, ideally I'd like to get feedback. Going from 25" to 28.625" in scale, the strings behave the way I'd expect - i.e. they require a thicker gauge to tune lower, irrespective of the scale length. But when I play 30" instruments, the strings need to be SIGNIFICANTLY thicker to tune lower. In other words, the length seems to be such that the string needs a good deal of tension just to be suspected at that length. It sort of explains why basses need so much higher tension than guitar strings.

Anyway, I was talking with Kurt at Rondo about the possibility of a fanned 10 string with a scale longer than 30", and he said he was definitely interested in it. So if anyone is down, and we can decide on the scales, maybe he will do it. 

Anyway, post up if you've ever messed around with low tuning beyond 30", where you tried to use guitar strings/tensions (as opposed to those of a bass).


----------



## Steinmetzify (Jul 23, 2017)

M8M copy I had for a while last year...30.3" scale. Was good and solid for drop E, but I used an .80 for it. Was pretty even for what it was. Think I went 10-52-70-80. Dug it, nice and tight.

I know you tune way lower than that though...


----------



## OmegaSlayer (Jul 23, 2017)

Is there really a reason to tune lower than standard if you got a 10 string?
I mean, if you have to do your own music.
Vektor quite prove that going lower isn't the only way.
Ideally I'd rather have an high A than going lower than a 9 string.


----------



## A-Branger (Jul 23, 2017)

how do you (would you) play it?, like classical normal playing stuff? or only two hands tapping stuff?, if so, wouldnt be better to build a double neck thinggy like Felix Martin, but one being a bass, other a guitar?


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Jul 23, 2017)

Gonna be honest dude, at what point does tuning lower just become a pointless exercise?


----------



## OmegaSlayer (Jul 23, 2017)

In my wild and crazy luthiery dreams an 8th and a 9th strings with fanned fret would be fretless after 9th fret and they would go through a piezo pickup.


----------



## ThePIGI King (Jul 23, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Gonna be honest dude, at what point does tuning lower just become a pointless exercise?


The man asked a question, and you come here to simply tell him his idea is pointless? It's an extended range guitar, meaning that guitar has a larger range of notes to be played on a single instrument. The entire purpose is to push boundaries and try new things. As long as the note is audible to humans, why shouldn't it be played? Why waste time switching from one instrument to another when you can have it all on the same instrument, same neck?

I think it's a great idea. I can't wait to see if you can all make it happen, because I'd love to try 10 strings in the near future.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jul 23, 2017)

I think a 28.625 to 30+ 8 string would be pretty cool.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2017)

Yeah, I don't want to tune lower than what a 10 string would give. What I want is for the 10 string to sound better. So, for instance, I know what strings I can use with a 30" 8 string at F#1. And I'm satisfied with the sound of F#1 at 27" on up through 30". 
But I'm not satisfied with the C#1 or G#0 at 30". So I either abandon playing anything that low, or I see if maybe going to 32" or something would make it sound usable and good. That's why I'm asking. But since there isn't really a way to waltz into GC and try it out, I have to figure it out somehow.


----------



## ThePIGI King (Jul 23, 2017)

The Skervesen SkerveTEN is 27.5-31. 

http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-skerveten-10-string-headless.270945/

That guy tuned his to F#0 at 31" and liked it, so maybe 31" would do you well?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 23, 2017)

I think at a certain point we've entered bass territory, especially if you're chasing the C#1 or G#0 and trying to get it to sound good. C#1 should work fine at 30-32" but getting the G#0 to work would require massive bass strings (like .244 at 32"). I don't really think the G#0 is feasible unless you actually go into bass territory like a 34" or higher scale. Most guitar pickups suck at reproducing that low of notes (barring the lace stuff) which really doesn't help the situation. I think a split bass/guitar pickup setup might be the way to go (like the novax charlie parker guitars).


----------



## ixlramp (Jul 23, 2017)

No, G#0 is 3 semitones below bass low B, so on a 34" scale only needs around .150 for 30 pounds tension.


OmegaSlayer said:


> Is there really a reason to tune lower than standard if you got a 10 string?





GuitarBizarre said:


> at what point does tuning lower just become a pointless exercise?


Tuning a little lower than a 10 in standard (G#0) is still not particularly low, there are basses with G#00 and many with C#0.
But to answer, when the 2nd harmonic falls below 20Hz, so when the fundamental is below 10Hz, so roughly at D#00 4 strings below bass low B.
Also you should both look at the forum and subforum you are in, extended range scepticism is out of place here, people probably said the same about 7 string guitars that you now consider quite tame.


A-Branger said:


> or only two hands tapping stuff?, if so, wouldnt be better to build a double neck thinggy like Felix Martin, but one being a bass, other a guitar?


2 handed tapping in no way suggests a double neck or split fretboard is needed or preferential, many 2-handed tap on a single region and i consider this a better approach, to avoid an arbitrary splitting of range.


----------



## ixlramp (Jul 23, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't really think the G#0 is feasible unless you actually go into bass territory like a 34" or higher scale


G#0 is doable on 30", Kalium had an Agile 30" 10 string at NAMM with a G#0 (.150 i think) and the tone was pretty good, there's a video of it on youtube somewhere.


----------



## ixlramp (Jul 23, 2017)

Hollowway, i prefer the dimensions of basses but am more of a guitarist, so i restring 6 string basses with thinner strings at low as possible tensions, so i consider my 35" Ibanez BTB an ERG.


----------



## ixlramp (Jul 23, 2017)

I was very interested to discover recently someone who has made a 45" scale 7 string guitar with guitar string spacing and a lowest string of .073 tuned to C#1 (7 lowest strings of standard 9 string tuning), imagine the tone and clarity! And yes he's a big guy.

A longer scale causes a lower perceived tension, as the string anchor points are further apart making sideways displacement easier for an unchanged tension. It makes a string more floppy and easier to bend.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2017)

Yeah, that perceived lower tension thing was a bit of a surprise the first time I encountered it. That's why I'm trying to reconcile the tensions for long scales.

Where did you see that 45" scale? I want to check that out. I think I remember Holdsworth having a 40" scale guitar, too, but I can't find that online.

On my 10 string I think I'm going to go thicker again with the gauges to see what it sounds like. I think I'm running a .116 and .145, or something like that, for the C#1 and G#0.


----------



## trem licking (Jul 23, 2017)

might want to consider what kind of fan is comfortable to you, what different fan spans have you tried? i would definitely go as long as possible, so if you're comfortable with a 3 or 4 inch fan i would start the treble end at 30" (being that that is the longest you can really go before the treble strings start becoming unreliable? perhaps 31"... anyone chime in if I'm wrong here) and fan up to 33 or 34". This of course would be a hell of an instrument to wrestle but if you play standard scale 6 string bass ok i would think it would be tolerable. some very cool stuff could be played on something like this.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2017)

Yeah, my 9 and 10 strings are 3", and I have a couple of basses and 8s at that fan, and they're all totally fine. My original thinking was 28-33" or so, if I were to get a custom. But, I don't want to experiment any more than I have to, which is the reason for the thread.

Prometeus recently did a 13 string bass with a 26"-36" scale. I talked with him about what it would cost to build a guitar version of it (not as expensive as I figured), but he didn't seem to into the guitar aspect, because he mostly builds basses. 

But I mean, I don't get bass players that add lots of lower strings. I mean, if want to play notes that low, just get a bass!!! Er.... wait. 

Seriously, though, I know a lot of people think this is crazy, but I wonder if there is something really cool just beyond what we are all doing. In other words, guitars at 30" are a dime a dozen now. We know how they sound. We know that F#1 and E1 are very practical at 27", 28", 30.3". But most people aren't thrilled with the sound of C#1 and lower at 30". Now, it could be due to a number of factors, but I don't think we've ruled out 30" as being less than ideal for those notes. In other words, maybe 33" is the sweet spot for guitars tuned to B0 and C#1. I happen to like the sound of low notes, and I find it inspiring to write with new instruments, and new notes/tunings.


----------



## PBC (Jul 23, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that perceived lower tension thing was a bit of a surprise the first time I encountered it. That's why I'm trying to reconcile the tensions for long scales.
> 
> Where did you see that 45" scale? I want to check that out. I think I remember Holdsworth having a 40" scale guitar, too, but I can't find that online.
> 
> On my 10 string I think I'm going to go thicker again with the gauges to see what it sounds like. I think I'm running a .116 and .145, or something like that, for the C#1 and G#0.



@Hollowway 

On rondo's custom order, you can spec out a bass guitar with a 30-35" fan. I feel that depending on the perpendicular that fan would work well as a 10 string guitar. Maybe Kurt would allow that spec to be carried over to guitars. Probably would be pretty neck dive heavy with a pendulum or intrepid body but nevertheless it should be a step in the right direction.


----------



## A-Branger (Jul 23, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> 2 handed tapping in no way suggests a double neck or split fretboard is needed or preferential, many 2-handed tap on a single region and i consider this a better approach, to avoid an arbitrary splitting of range.


I know, but my reasoning behind this is different as what you are getting out of my post. Since he wants to tune down to the same low note of a 6 string bass (if we adde a lower string to the B instead of a higher one), and since hes strugling to get something decent at guitar scale lenghts. MAybe what he needs is a bass scale lenght. But if he builds this "guitar", then the top 6 strings might be too high in tension due to the extra scale lenght, and might wont be playable enough. Reaosn why the multisclae, but the fan might be far too wide to be practical. So a solution might be to split the neck into two different scales one more guitar oriented and one more bass one. IF he plays it on a more tapping approach. IF he plays in a more traditional way, then this idea wont work as he wont be able to access the lower stuff. Hence my question


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2017)

PBC said:


> @Hollowway
> 
> On rondo's custom order, you can spec out a bass guitar with a 30-35" fan. I feel that depending on the perpendicular that fan would work well as a 10 string guitar. Maybe Kurt would allow that spec to be carried over to guitars. Probably would be pretty neck dive heavy with a pendulum or intrepid body but nevertheless it should be a step in the right direction.



Hmm, interesting! I've played around with the custom guitar tool on rondomusic, but never the bass one, so I had no idea those were even options. I should ask Kurt.


----------



## ixlramp (Jul 24, 2017)

I've long wished for bass-length ERGs, but of course string availability is a problem and acts as an obstacle, just like it does for ultra-long basses.
Most guitar strings are not long enough for scales over 30" and bass strings are relatively expensive. Then there's problems of mixing guitar strings with bass strings and having both work in the bridge. Also, the nut-end taper must be between nut and tuner post, so a 34" scale seems best for the lowest string, but how to combine that with an instrument short enough to use guitar strings for the higher strings?
Of course many guitarists want something not too long due to technique and want very low notes on guitar-like scales, which is somewhat unreasonable.
These are just the commercial pressures, hopefully things will shift as they have been recently, moving guitar and guitar strings towards longer and lower.

The tuner post for the lowest string could be placed further away from the nut to create a 32" or 33" scale that allows using 34" strings.
It seems individual top-load bridges are needed to cope with taperwound low strings, and such bridges should accept guitar or bass ball-ends.


----------



## Tom Drinkwater (Jul 24, 2017)

I made a 32"-29.5" 10 string six a few years back. I believe it had a labella .120" tuned to G# and it sounded pretty good. I would be more inclined to go for a longer scale than that for optimal low string tone. That 30-35 bass scale might be just the ticket. Obviously the pickups, amp and technique all need to be on point too but the longer scale would definitely go a long ways toward your goal.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (Jul 24, 2017)

longest erg ive played is the mark tremonti baritone - 25.5"

lol...j/k. longest played is 27" on my rg8 and and an rga8. i dont think it too long, wouldn't mind trying a 30"


----------



## BigViolin (Jul 24, 2017)

Any way you go about this will come with a big compromise on either end. I start thinking about how good the clarity is with say a Dingwall at 37" and how big of a fan is actually playable. Obviously you've been kicking this around for some time and am much farther down the road than I, but I would be looking at two key issues, fan range and which end would be optimized. What's the biggest ten string fan you know of? Is something like 30-37" even playable?

Apologies if this has been covered, but I would love to see someone build a super extreme fanned 10 and make it work. .009-.160 would be pretty cool to check out.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 25, 2017)

Yeah, these are all good points. My thinking with a super long scale is to tune it below standard, such that it would be adding frets "behind the nut." In other words, you could make it such that a capo at the 4th fret would result in the EADGBE tuning on the upper strings we're all used to. Then you could have a thicker string with lower tension on the higher strings. And that would work with super long scales.
Alternatively, skew it to favor the higher end, and not take the high end much beyond the 28" that we all accept on 8 strings. 

I feel like a 5 or 6" fan should be doable, especially since this wouldn't be a shredding guitar, per se. 

But yeah, top loading bridge, low end tuning posts near the nut, etc, and some Kalium strings, and it's probably reasonably doable.


----------



## Winspear (Jul 25, 2017)

Yeah the frets behind the nut thing is exactly what Holdsworth was doing. He wanted to retain a 25.5 EADGBE with regular gauges - so that actually ended up with a 38" scale just do go down 7 semitones to regular low A! The clarity would have been incredible, the feel with his regular strings? I'm not so sure.
I've only tried it detuning 34/35/36 basses with Kaliums (having the same string construction as their guitar strings so in theory being the same thing). I took them down from 40lbs to around 28lbs (I'd usually use 20lbs for a regular baritone guitar, found 24lbs good for my 30" Bass VIs (which I treated as guitars entirely)). It felt ok but was kind of hard to get used to, maybe it was the bass mindset due to it still being one of my basses, with bass spacing and electronics etc.
I'm really into the idea of experimenting with this - I'd really like a 36


----------



## Winspear (Jul 25, 2017)

Here's what I have in mind:
len 36
b0 .114 ckwng == 31.35#
len 35.7
e1 .086 ckwng == 31.75#
len 35.4
a1 .063 ckwng == 30.09#
len 35.4
d2 .045 ckwng == 28.34#
len 35.1
g2 .033 ckwng == 27.37#
len 34.8
c3 .024 ckwng == 26.83#
len 34.5
f3 .017 ckplg == 24.18#
len 34.2
b3b .013 ckplg == 24.76#

A 9 with an Eb4 on top would be nice but it's pushing it too much for me at 34" - just a bit more than my 24.75" Ab4. I think 31" would be just right for an Eb so perhaps a 31-34 9 string is in order  Yes a bigger fan is viable but it's not a priority to me to get the top string in there. 
The long scale is super appealing to me not only for tone, but for small microtonal frettings, and easier fretless intonation


----------



## Halowords (Jul 25, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Gonna be honest dude, at what point does tuning lower just become a pointless exercise?



Well, the Chapman Stick has 10 strings at a 36" scale across all strings. Not sure how they do that on the higher strings and it's a tapping instrument, however that range is at least possible.

Honestly though, I've had similar thoughts and ended up getting a 9-string Rondo with a 27"-30" fan. I have it at B0 and find it just stands out, so may eventually get a much thicker string or change the tuning (it's a BEADGCFAD right now). At this point, I find the low-B string pretty much just taking up space for now. However, in concept and in my mind, those can be useful for adding some low end thump or filling in the sound (which, yes, a bass player suits nicely) and having more strings under-finger.

I'm still mentally weighing my options before I jump to a different tuning (probably something with a low-E or something in the range of a Bass VI where I add a high-G or something because a high-A would snap if I breathed on it at 27"), however at proper tension having a 9 (and obviously a 10) gives me options that I think could work really well.

I've mostly abandoned the idea because I think more in terms of playing lead and bouncing between that and rhythm, and am considering selling the 9 for something shorter-scale to add a high-A instead of a really-low-B, but I really like what I've got so I'm a bit stumped. However for somebody like Hollowway I think he likes to play more with those low notes. It works for Charlie Hunter and I think could work for Doom Metal or bands like Meshuggah or just atmospheric stuff. My preferences are leading me more toward my roots of short-scale with a sweet treble (which my current tuning gets me close enough, it just leaves the low-B a bit...lacking), however the thought of playing Bass VI-and-lower stuff with standard chords, riffs, and just sort of bouncing back and forth between bass, rhythm, and lead (not in a band, just a middle-aged guy jamming in the basement for now), then something that could get low like a Quake Bass that just provides a visceral feel AND allow me to play around with lead stuff has an appeal. At that point it is a very instrument than a more singular-purpose-build guitar, like a designated bass, rhythm, or lead, and for playing a certain role in a band at this point I think I might opt for fewer strings and stick to my role a bit more. Which is surprising to hear myself say because in theory the more strings the better.

TLDR version, I totally get the appeal and think I understand what @Hollowway is going for. I think there is definitely a place for that, and the Chapman Stick is a great example showing that it can be done and work well in a band situation. I could just watch Tony Levin rock out on his Chapman Stick and be back here totally rejuvenated for ten(+?) strings in about two minutes. I just think to make it all work ideally for me requires waaaaaaay too long a fan to be playable and becomes something other than a guitar in the traditional sense.

Probably more than anybody wanted to know.

-Cheers


----------



## ixlramp (Jul 25, 2017)

Certainly it's good to give up on keeping a E4 on top, it's not difficult to get used to a transposed guitar.

Chapman Stick, WarrGuitar and TouchGuitars all have D4 as the highest possible open tuning for 34" (= C#4 on 36"), that's the highest possible with typical plain strings, D4 on 34" is equivalent to G4 on 25.5". Obviously having E4 open is meaningless due to the string damper and playing technique.


----------



## Halowords (Jul 25, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, these are all good points. My thinking with a super long scale is to tune it below standard, such that it would be adding frets "behind the nut."



That's kind of how I have my Agile set up, and I have seen one or two where Rick Toone has built guitars with a built-in partial capo for the lower strings. However, in practice I never got a capo and ended up just playing it dropped down a full step just because I like consistency. Ergo, it is easier for me to have static open notes/chords, so it still kind of throws me a bit going from my Agile to my standard-tuned 6's. Not because of the extra strings, but the fact my scales/patterns are all kind of tied to the first string and everything is two-frets off.



> I feel like a 5 or 6" fan should be doable, especially since this wouldn't be a shredding guitar, per se.



At that point, why not consider something like a Chapman Stick or a Harpejji?


----------



## Backsnack (Jul 25, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think at a certain point we've entered bass territory, especially if you're chasing the C#1 or G#0 and trying to get it to sound good. C#1 should work fine at 30-32" but getting the G#0 to work would require massive bass strings (like .244 at 32"). I don't really think the G#0 is feasible unless you actually go into bass territory like a 34" or higher scale. Most guitar pickups suck at reproducing that low of notes (barring the lace stuff) which really doesn't help the situation. I think a split bass/guitar pickup setup might be the way to go (like the novax charlie parker guitars).


*Hint hint*

Chapman Stick


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 25, 2017)

Yeah, I was actually looking at the Stick. I sent them an email asking about the new aluminum version. Never got a response, though. 
But, I don’t do two hand tapping. I don’t really like the sound of it, it’s not my style, and I don’t want to learn that method of playing when I still suck and every other method.  But I definitely thought about buying one and trying to use it as a traditional guitar. Though, they’re quite expensive for that sort of experimentation.


----------



## Winspear (Jul 27, 2017)

Looking at my post above I had thoughts about converting a 6 string bass into an 8 string guitar and using;
len 35
b0 .120 ckwnb == 32.71#
e1 .090 ckwnb == 33.27#
a1 .067 ckwnb == 33.43#
d2 .049 ckwnb == 32.53#
g2 .037 ckwnb == 33.67#
c3 .026 ckwnb == 31.43#
f3 .018 ckplb == 27.9#
b3b .013 ckplb == 25.93#

I realised trebles aside these gauges are not far off a typical 6 string bass set, or a lighter gauge set. Pretty much like tuning a bass down a semitone or two. That still feels very very much like a bass like I said before haha. I'm trying to convince myself it's just a mindset thing and that the string spacing etc would alter my perception


----------



## Tom Drinkwater (Aug 1, 2017)

BigViolin said:


> Any way you go about this will come with a big compromise on either end. I start thinking about how good the clarity is with say a Dingwall at 37" and how big of a fan is actually playable. Obviously you've been kicking this around for some time and am much farther down the road than I, but I would be looking at two key issues, fan range and which end would be optimized. What's the biggest ten string fan you know of? Is something like 30-37" even playable?
> 
> Apologies if this has been covered, but I would love to see someone build a super extreme fanned 10 and make it work. .009-.160 would be pretty cool to check out.



Extreme fans can be playable but it really depends on the player. My SS8 Shorty model looks unplayable with a 22.5-26 fan but is surprisingly easy to play. If you added two strings to that layout you'd be looking at 22.5-27 and if you increased the entire scale length to something like 37-32.5 i dont think it would that bad at all.


----------



## Poo (Aug 13, 2017)

Winspear said:


> ... Bass VIs (which I treated as guitars entirely))...


I do that, too! Did you put in different pickups or stick with the weird single-coil/pseudo-humbucker setup?



GuitarBizarre said:


> Gonna be honest dude, at what point does tuning lower just become a pointless exercise?


Never. It's fun. I have, however, found out that B♭00 (14.568) is the lowest note I can actually hear from my bass guitar...


----------



## Winspear (Aug 14, 2017)

Poo said:


> I do that, too! Did you put in different pickups or stick with the weird single-coil/pseudo-humbucker setup?
> 
> 
> Never. It's fun. I have, however, found out that B♭00 (14.568) is the lowest note I can actually hear from my bass guitar...


Stock pickups, I was very happy with them. I didn't buy it for death metal or anything and found they were fantastic for anything else. Singlecoil sounds and low tunings are incredible fun, imo


----------



## op1e (Aug 14, 2017)

Regarding the very first post, that's strange and interesting. I wanna go up to 28 for a 7, probably just get an 8. I found while I briefly had an Agile 827 I could ACTUALLY get by with a 64 instead of a 74 for the low A unlike my 7421. But being tuned A standard in the band, getting the low E tension was a problem even with a 90. I would prefer to be in half step down for 8 string stuff, but alas the songs are already written and they would be useless for our 7 string set of songs until we could all afford a Drop pedal. Need MOAR TENSIONS!!!


----------



## jrui (Aug 14, 2017)

I have a 30" 6 string. a bass vi copy from jackson guitar company. I simply use EB 1256 B std tuning on it, which to me is very good. I like the voicing of a baritone guitar , more huge sounding, more tough,more defi
nition,more unforgiving. That's really what a real metal guitar means.


----------



## luca9583 (Aug 15, 2017)

@Hollowway

I have a dual scale instrument (25.5" and 34") that produces a great sounding B0 with a .120 gauge. It has a multi channel bridge pickup that allows me to eq the two lowest strings separately from the higher strings and from each other. I was using a .094 for the B0 to begin with, but this required moving the bridge saddle so far back for intonation to the point where it started to affect the bridge pickup tone..in that it started to sound more like a bridge and middle pickup combined.

For tuning lower than B0 i would definitely look into an even longer scale length because after a certain point, you definitely need relatively heavier strings (bass gauge for the super low tunings down to F#0) for the fretted notes to be intonated. I would also look into getting a multi channel pickup or perhaps several single string pickups as you will definitely want to eq something like an F#0 differently to a typical E1 in terms of how much Tube Screamer style boost you apply before hitting your preamp.

Another very, very important point when going for longer than 30" scale for ERGs is the pickup placement. If you place the bridge pickup very close to the bridge M8M style at 34" scale for example, you'll get a very raspy bass tone with very little low end and it won't sound like a guitar. As you start to move the pickup away from the bridge, the tone starts to become more guitar-like because the distance between bridge and bridge pickup is in proportion to the scale length compared to say, the pickup placement on a Gibson or Fender.

I would grab one of those Rondo fanned fret basses that go up to 36/37" scale and then experiment with string gauges for your desired tunings.


----------



## luca9583 (Aug 15, 2017)

If it's a 10 string you're going for, i would go for some negative frets on the two lowest strings


----------



## InfinityCollision (Aug 16, 2017)

Somebody here, can't recall their name, has a guitar with something like a 32~36" fan. Dunno if they're around as much these days, but that would be a good person to ask.


----------



## InfinityCollision (Aug 16, 2017)

Finally remembered, I was thinking of Durero.


----------



## Durero (Aug 16, 2017)

Hey that's me. I haven't been very active here lately - too busy working on my prototype designs and getting my shop going.

InfinityCollision you're exactly right: I've been playing a 36"-32" 7-string since 2000. 

I also have a 32"-28" 10-string which I've modified to allow pickup position adjustment. It came with a straight pickup, not angled with the fan, which sounds awful for the bass strings. I had the top routed to allow the pickup to be swung so it's parallel to the bridge and right next to it and it sounds infinitely clearer now on the bass strings.

There are a couple of ideas expressed in this thread that I'd like to react to.

First I've had a nice discussion with Tom Winspear (outside this forum) regarding perceived tension and scale length. My experience with long scales is that if you chose your string gage to match the tension you're used to with shorter scale instruments then the tension and perceived tension is exactly the same _assuming you're picking at the same distance from the bridge which you were on your shorter scale instrument.
_
If you let your picking hand wander farther from the bridge on your long scale instrument then of course the perceived string tension will be lower, but that's not really due to the scale length, it's due to your hand position. I find that palm-muting technique is the perfect way to keep your picking hand at a consistent distance from the bridge regardless of the scale length of the instrument.

For the fretting hand the perceived tension will definitely be lower (assuming the same actual string tension) on longer scale instruments as you move your hand towards the 12th fret. In my opinion as a former full-time guitar teacher for over 20 years if this issue bothers you then you're pressing too hard when you fret notes. This means that you're relying on string tension to keep your fretting fingers stable, instead of strengthening the smaller muscles in your fingers to keep each finger stable.


Secondly I have to respectfully disagree with the notion Holloway expressed about pickup placement. I have experimented with this by varying the pickup placement on the same instrument and I've found that the proportional idea you're talking about simply doesn't work. 

It's much simpler: pickup placement acts like a filter. Closer to the bridge = more treble & less bass. Closer to the neck = more bass. On my 10-string the clearest and most guitar-like tone happens when the pickup is right against the bridge M8M-style. It sounds more and more bass-like the further the pickup is away from the bridge.

This pickup placement concept applies most strongly to high-gain guitar tones. For clean tones then perhaps the issue is debatable. I have a variety of basses and I find that pickup placement on them is less standardized than it is on guitars.

My 2cents.
Leo


----------



## luca9583 (Aug 16, 2017)

Durero said:


> It's much simpler: pickup placement acts like a filter. Closer to the bridge = more treble & less bass. Closer to the neck = more bass. On my 10-string the clearest and most guitar-like tone happens when the pickup is right against the bridge M8M-style. It sounds more and more bass-like the further the pickup is away from the bridge.



I would say that there is definitely a tonal difference achieved with different pickup placement that goes beyond varying levels of treble and bass.

Regarding "guitar-like" bridge pickup tone on bass scale lengths, i think there is definitely a sweet spot for pickup placement that changes a bit as the scale length goes up. At 34" scale, i'm 100% sure that a bridge pickup placed right next to the bridge will sound less guitar-like than placing it a little further away, but obviously not placed so far as where it starts to sound like a middle pickup tone.

Another fun thing with 34" scale when using guitar strings is that fretted notes on the 5th fret sound very similar to open strings on a 25.5" scale guitar, but that same pitch as an open string at 34" scale (still with a guitar string) will start to sound less guitar-like to my ears and more raspy.

It would be great to record a test using a 34" scale instrument with a sliding pickup of some kind, and guitar strings.


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 17, 2017)

Can I see a picture of this instrument? It sounds super cool.



luca9583 said:


> @Hollowway
> 
> I have a dual scale instrument (25.5" and 34") that produces a great sounding B0 with a .120 gauge. It has a multi channel bridge pickup that allows me to eq the two lowest strings separately from the higher strings and from each other. I was using a .094 for the B0 to begin with, but this required moving the bridge saddle so far back for intonation to the point where it started to affect the bridge pickup tone..in that it started to sound more like a bridge and middle pickup combined.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 17, 2017)

Leo, you gonna start building? I’ll be at the front of that line, if you do!



Durero said:


> Hey that's me. I haven't been very active here lately - too busy working on my prototype designs and getting my shop going.
> 
> InfinityCollision you're exactly right: I've been playing a 36"-32" 7-string since 2000.
> 
> ...


----------



## Winspear (Aug 17, 2017)

Thanks for the contribution! Following our discussion, and a little rethinking on my part, I'm going to see what's the longest scale I can handle with a traditional bridge position - rather than it being further back like a bass. I was already finding that backwards position to affect my muting hand slightly, and given what you said about the hand position I want to keep it as easy as possible to mute normally. Will have a play around !


----------



## luca9583 (Aug 17, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Can I see a picture of this instrument? It sounds super cool.







the second pic was taken before i had the mulitchannel pickup installed and moved a little further away from the bridge


----------



## ixlramp (Aug 18, 2017)

Very interesting instrument, showing an advantage of headless design. Clever dual-use of fretboard dots too. Shows how the 5th fret of 34" bass is 25.5" guitar.



Winspear said:


> I'm going to see what's the longest scale I can handle with a traditional bridge position - rather than it being further back like a bass. I was already finding that backwards position to affect my muting hand slightly


Yes this is what i find playing a bass as an ERG, the picking hand is at a different angle to the strings, the forearm more perpendicular than parallel, this can affect guitar techniques.


----------



## Durero (Sep 20, 2017)

luca9583 said:


> View attachment 55632
> View attachment 55633
> 
> 
> the second pic was taken before i had the mulitchannel pickup installed and moved a little further away from the bridge


What a cool concept and beautifully executed instrument. I love it!
Do you have any sound or video recordings of it which you'd like to share?



luca9583 said:


> I would say that there is definitely a tonal difference achieved with different pickup placement that goes beyond varying levels of treble and bass.
> 
> Regarding "guitar-like" bridge pickup tone on bass scale lengths, i think there is definitely a sweet spot for pickup placement that changes a bit as the scale length goes up. At 34" scale, i'm 100% sure that a bridge pickup placed right next to the bridge will sound less guitar-like than placing it a little further away, but obviously not placed so far as where it starts to sound like a middle pickup tone.
> 
> Another fun thing with 34" scale when using guitar strings is that fretted notes on the 5th fret sound very similar to open strings on a 25.5" scale guitar, but that same pitch as an open string at 34" scale (still with a guitar string) will start to sound less guitar-like to my ears and more raspy.



I suspect we mostly agree about the fundamentals of pickup placement and tone, but perhaps have different colours in mind for the terms "guitar-like" or "bass-like" tone. 

I stand by my statement that closer to bridge = more high frequencies and closer to neck = more lows, but if your preferred guitar tone is more mellow / less shrill than mine then that's just different taste and I see nothing wrong with that at all.

I'll try to elaborate on my "guitar-like" tone statement and say that I was focusing primarily on the problem of extending the guitar range far below E2 and how easily that range starts to sound too muddy for my taste. This is in the context of a metal-head's preferred high gain distortion. I'm sure a jazz player, for example, would have different and perhaps opposite taste from mine.



luca9583 said:


> It would be great to record a test using a 34" scale instrument with a sliding pickup of some kind, and guitar strings.


 To me an ideal design would be single string sliding pickups. I've always preferred a neck pickup sound for my high strings and a bridge pickup sound for my low strings. There was a pickup company called Linear Pickups which made such a design in the 90's/2000's but they seem to have gone out of business. It's on my todo list to try to develop one if I ever have the time.



Hollowway said:


> Leo, you gonna start building? I’ll be at the front of that line, if you do!


Haha I bet you will! Yes I'm building, but I've still got tons of work to do in sorting out my production process and build more prototypes for myself before offering anything for sale. Believe me I'll be posting here a lot more when I'm in production


----------



## Winspear (Sep 20, 2017)

Durero said:


> To me an ideal design would be single string sliding pickups. I've always preferred a neck pickup sound for my high strings and a bridge pickup sound for my low strings. There was a pickup company called Linear Pickups which made such a design in the 90's/2000's but they seem to have gone out of business. It's on my todo list to try to develop one if I ever have the time.



Are you aware of Cycfi pickups? Might be a bit more out there than you are looking for - but I'm going to be building a 9 string with their Nu capsules on sliding rails through slots in the body..just gotta figure out a rail system that works nicely !


----------



## Hollowway (Sep 21, 2017)

Durero’s protos have either those actual cyfis or a version of them. He’s got them in an s shape for the best placement on the fan.

I should probably state the obvious at this point: yes, I do stalk Leo. Yes, I do have an obsession. And yes, I would probably ask him out, if he were female.  I know a ridiculous amount about his long scale instrument (The guitar, you perv, get your head out of the gutter!)


----------



## luca9583 (Sep 21, 2017)

Durero said:


> What a cool concept and beautifully executed instrument. I love it!
> Do you have any sound or video recordings of it which you'd like to share?



Thanks man..it came out great after a few tweaks. Should have some recordings with it in a few months.



Winspear said:


> Are you aware of Cycfi pickups? Might be a bit more out there than you are looking for - but I'm going to be building a 9 string with their Nu capsules on sliding rails through slots in the body..just gotta figure out a rail system that works nicely !



Cycfi stuff looks very cool. Tom are you gonna be using these as full range pickups or using any filters/eq? I seem to remember some early high gain clips of these had some hiss due to the full range response


----------



## Durero (Oct 11, 2017)

Winspear said:


> Are you aware of Cycfi pickups? Might be a bit more out there than you are looking for - but I'm going to be building a 9 string with their Nu capsules on sliding rails through slots in the body..just gotta figure out a rail system that works nicely !


Yes Joel's Cycfi pickup designs are super nice! If you ever want someone to bounce rail designs off of, please don't hesitate to contact me. Moveable single string pickups are the ultimate tone control in my opinion.

Joel's printed circuit board pickup connectors look ideal for sliding pickups. I imagine that a set of magnets on the bottom of the Nu capsules to hold their position along a simple metal rail could work well. The magnets would have to be strong enough to hold position securely, but not so strong that the player can't reposition the capsules easily.

A far out fantasy version of movable pickups could be to mount them on a set of those self-positioning mixing board faders (the ones used to recall mix settings on fancy mixing consoles.) I'd love to be able to press a footswitch on my MIDI foot controller and have all my pickups quickly reposition to a different arrangement. I looked into sourcing those self-positioning faders years ago but they were prohibitively expensive. I should probably check again soon to see if there are any inexpensive versions, or tiny servo-controlled threaded sliders like for a 3D printer or something...


----------



## Durero (Oct 11, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Durero’s protos have either those actual cyfis or a version of them. He’s got them in an s shape for the best placement on the fan.
> 
> I should probably state the obvious at this point: yes, I do stalk Leo. Yes, I do have an obsession. And yes, I would probably ask him out, if he were female.  I know a ridiculous amount about his long scale instrument (The guitar, you perv, get your head out of the gutter!)


(Darth Vader voice)"The bromance is strong with this one"
It's entirely mutual Hollowway. The amount of drool I've produced over your ERG NGD posts over the years is downright embarrassing.

I'm looking forward to the day when I've got as many ERG's as you!


----------



## Durero (Oct 11, 2017)

luca9583 said:


> Thanks man..it came out great after a few tweaks. Should have some recordings with it in a few months.
> 
> 
> 
> Cycfi stuff looks very cool. Tom are you gonna be using these as full range pickups or using any filters/eq? I seem to remember some early high gain clips of these had some hiss due to the full range response


Luca I was assuming that the multi-channel pickups on your instrument _were _Cycfi Nu's. Since I'm obviously mistaken, what are you using?

Or is there a Roland hexaphonic between the bridge pickup and the bridge which I'm not seeing in the picture?


----------



## Winspear (Oct 12, 2017)

Durero said:


> Yes Joel's Cycfi pickup designs are super nice! If you ever want someone to bounce rail designs off of, please don't hesitate to contact me. Moveable single string pickups are the ultimate tone control in my opinion.
> 
> Joel's printed circuit board pickup connectors look ideal for sliding pickups. I imagine that a set of magnets on the bottom of the Nu capsules to hold their position along a simple metal rail could work well. The magnets would have to be strong enough to hold position securely, but not so strong that the player can't reposition the capsules easily.
> 
> A far out fantasy version of movable pickups could be to mount them on a set of those self-positioning mixing board faders (the ones used to recall mix settings on fancy mixing consoles.) I'd love to be able to press a footswitch on my MIDI foot controller and have all my pickups quickly reposition to a different arrangement. I looked into sourcing those self-positioning faders years ago but they were prohibitively expensive. I should probably check again soon to see if there are any inexpensive versions, or tiny servo-controlled threaded sliders like for a 3D printer or something...



Faders did occur to me to use as a ready-made rail system, but didn't think of automatic ones - that would be incredible indeed haha. They are probably much more affordable now with the popularity of digital consoles increasing int he last 5 years hugely. 
The magnet idea is lovely and very simple - had not thought of that. I do wonder if it could intefere with the pickup? Still, a safe bet would be to extend the base of it further into the guitar with metal and then attach the magnet lower down. 
I love this idea - very simple and will certainly be a good one for prototyping! Thank you


----------



## GenghisCoyne (Oct 12, 2017)

i have a 35" 6 string stung B-C.


----------



## Hollowway (Oct 12, 2017)

GenghisCoyne said:


> i have a 35" 6 string stung B-C.


Bass or guitar? Or crossover? And I’m assuming B0, right? How does it sound? What string sizes do you have on it?


----------



## PBC (Oct 13, 2017)

Durero said:


> Yes Joel's Cycfi pickup designs are super nice! If you ever want someone to bounce rail designs off of, please don't hesitate to contact me. Moveable single string pickups are the ultimate tone control in my opinion.
> 
> Joel's printed circuit board pickup connectors look ideal for sliding pickups. I imagine that a set of magnets on the bottom of the Nu capsules to hold their position along a simple metal rail could work well. The magnets would have to be strong enough to hold position securely, but not so strong that the player can't reposition the capsules easily.



@Durero @Winspear 

Would you guys care to elaborate on Cycfi pickups. I'm not entirely sure of all the systems that these pickups can come with. My initial reading of his blogs gets me into geek overdrive even though I'm still wrapping my head around some of the concepts. The Nu multi are individual string pickups that can be arranged in any shape right? 

His concept of virtual pickups feel like just a matter of when not if:






I feel that it's only a matter of time until there become pickup sims akin to Axe Fx and Kemper. Where you select something like Invader for a certain rhythm part, then switch to a PAF Pro for lead, and then like an Aftermath for the bridge. Obviously that's overkill but similar idea. 

Durero, could a full bucker take the place of a sliding rails system? 





Stacked single coils or buckers from the very edge of the bridge until the end of the fretboard? Then via software or foot controller you could activate which coils would be active on the guitar (patches from software). It wouldn't be as precise as a rails system since there would be minor spaces between the poles, but might be a compromise?


----------



## Winspear (Oct 13, 2017)

Is that overkill? A lot more has occured to me  Such as a different pickup model for the treble strings etc. Haha, the possibilities are endless and it's very exciting. I can't wait to see Joels' software.

Cycfi:
-They all sound the same, full flat response. Aside from humbucker size picking up a wider area which results in a naturally bigger tone
-XR are your regular mono pickups
-The regular looking controls are for switching and tone functions as normal but with more control
-Nu are single string to a multipin output. They can be grouped onboard but not necessarily recommended due to added noise
-Nexus is the breakout box for the multipin cable to output each string on a jack
-CV controls on the guitar would be used for Nu, output via the Nexus also. These can be used to control anything like pan, EQ etc via MIDI
-Nu Duo isn't released and might not be for the above reason, they are for simpler two channel setups i.e. treble and bass groups of strings (to a stereo cable I think? May be wrong. Though it would certainly be possible)
-There is an upcoming blade pickup configuration for fan frets, custom string spacing etc without having to worry about string position


----------



## InfinityCollision (Oct 29, 2017)

The Cycfi stuff is basically a blank slate for tone, limited only by your imagination. It helps tremendously that he's working on additional resources that compliment it, including polyphonic tone shaping and effects processing. I'm just waiting for the Infinity system at this point...


----------



## vildhjarta888 (Oct 29, 2017)

The longest scale I ever played was a Crescent bass which was like 42" or maybe lower than that but the longest scale on a ERG Guitar is a 28" scale 9 string. I am thinking about getting a 30" 9 string or maybe 10 string (probably not 10 string though)


----------



## luca9583 (Nov 8, 2017)

Durero said:


> Luca I was assuming that the multi-channel pickups on your instrument _were _Cycfi Nu's. Since I'm obviously mistaken, what are you using?
> 
> Or is there a Roland hexaphonic between the bridge pickup and the bridge which I'm not seeing in the picture?



It's a simple 3 channel Humbucker custom made by Aaron Armstrong from Armstrong pickups. 1 channel for the 7th string, 1 for the 6th string and 1 for the top 5 strings. Each channel can be humbucking or coil tapped. The coils are really crammed in there and output is great. Separation is excellent.

No hexaphonic pickup in there..just the Armstrong in the bridge and a Black Hawk in the neck


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 1, 2017)

This is not me, but this is my idea of an ERG, 34" scale and that classic-Meshuggah type clarity and tone.
It's an 8 string touch guitar by http://www.touchguitars.com/
The standard tuning is Fripp / Guitar Craft extended 'New Standard Tuning': fifths with a minor third and tone on top, from 1 semitone below 5 string bass B to a tone below guitar top E:
Bb F C G D A C D


----------



## Winspear (Dec 4, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> This is not me, but this is my idea of an ERG, 34" scale and that classic-Meshuggah type clarity and tone.
> It's an 8 string touch guitar by http://www.touchguitars.com/
> The standard tuning is Fripp / Guitar Craft extended 'New Standard Tuning': fifths with a minor third and tone on top, from 1 semitone below 5 string bass B to a tone below guitar top E:
> Bb F C G D A C D




And that clarity with that pickup placement :O


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 4, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> This is not me, but this is my idea of an ERG, 34" scale and that classic-Meshuggah type clarity and tone.
> It's an 8 string touch guitar by http://www.touchguitars.com/
> The standard tuning is Fripp / Guitar Craft extended 'New Standard Tuning': fifths with a minor third and tone on top, from 1 semitone below 5 string bass B to a tone below guitar top E:
> Bb F C G D A C D




I have zero interest in playing tap style, but that's pretty cool. I've considered getting a tapper, and just stringing it and playing it traditionally. I still think it would be even cooler fanned to 30" on the high side. That would be killer!


----------



## EverDream (Dec 14, 2017)

I have a Kalium .118 guitar string tuned to G#0 on my Agile Intrepid 828 (28.625") right now and it sounds and feels good to me!


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 14, 2017)

EverDream said:


> I have a Kalium .118 guitar string tuned to G#0 on my Agile Intrepid 828 (28.625") right now and it sounds and feels good to me!



Seriously? I have have zero idea how that's working for you. And here I thought _I _had a light touch! That's less than 15 lbs. I have a .142" at 30", and I'm still not happy. I'm going to .151" next.


----------



## EverDream (Dec 14, 2017)

I kinda don't know how it's working for me either after hearing you guys and what you use. I must just have a really light touch, so it feels tight to me, lol. I do have a video I made doing a G# minor descending run from G#2 to G#0, but it was just with my old digital camera's video mode, as that's the only thing I have to capture video ATM, and it's just 480x360 using the MJPEG Codec (however I did replace the crappy camera mic audio (8bit 16khz mono LOL) with the actual amp output (16bit 44.1khz mono) that I also simultaneously recorded when I recorded the video, and it does sound way better), plus the lighting in my room isn't really set up for video recording (it's very dim), so the quality isn't even as good as most camera phones are (but it's still good enough to see what's going on). Also I didn't have a good place to put the camera to record myself, I had to hang it from the side of my rack, and my guitar cable is partially obscuring the view of my playing. And then on top of that, I don't even have a Youtube channel yet to upload it to so I can post it here! But I intend to, and when I finally do, I'll post the video here for you to see.


----------

