# How do you go about song writing?



## Hamatha (Jan 18, 2011)

Just wondering how everyone here approaches song writing, like do you jam out to drum samples, tab out music on guitar pro (not a fan of this method), or do you just sit alone and write music in your bedroom (or where ever you usually write). 
P.S This is my first thread EVER, so I'm popping my thread posting cherry so to speak.


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## Hamatha (Jan 18, 2011)

Oh, and just to kick things off. I usually like write with another guitar player, because I like bouncing ideas of of people, as it tends to keep me out of chug chug dissonance nonsense (usually). I find this method, to feel more organic and natural than writing alone with a computer... but that's just me.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

Depends, really. Sometimes, I have the entire idea in my head before I touch an instrument or paper, and other times, I have to hammer it out slavishly, revising several times. Other times, I use ideas I've written years before. My favorite is when I'm driving and trying to figure out how to notate things I'm hearing in my head, so I have something quantifiable to remember when I get home.


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## troyguitar (Jan 18, 2011)

The best stuff I've written, I started with vocal melodies (with or without lyrics) made up in the car then built up chord progressions to fit them, then worked on the actual arrangement.


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## Hamatha (Jan 18, 2011)

Hrmm, good stuff so far. I'm interested in how people feel about writing with computer programs(mostly GP). Troyguitar, how exactly do you go about working around vocal lines? I never really got HOW to write around vocal lines, maybe listening to too much busy instrumental music. I usually find, I start with more of a beat/Rhythmic Idea and work from there building chord progression and such.. maybe I'm a bit backwards?


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## DustinJ (Jan 18, 2011)

I personally start off with either an idea in my head, or just a riff I pop out during a practice session and write it down in GuitarPro. If I'm in a rather creative mood, I can take that and form a song around it using GP and working with riffs at the desk with my guitar. Other times I as well will already have a decent structure worked out in my head, and just mold it into GuitarPro making renditions as needed. Any way, regardless of how the idea comes together I spend hours scouring back over the song and just listening repeatedly making changes until I'm completely happy with the song. Even though this is all for fun, and we all love making music I always strive to write something that I would listen to as an enthusiast and challenge myself technically. To each their own, but those ways have worked for my personality and playing style.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 18, 2011)

I just start with some rhythm tracks, and I typically lay them down (not very run of the mill, a bit odd). Then I build drums to the rhythm track, and re-record if necessary. I then add bass and leads as I deem fit, typically bass first, bass can take a while if I want to make it something special as I need to play through something a few times before I come into my stride playing bass (the basslines evolve in complexity from simpler with fills to full RUSH-like glory.)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 18, 2011)

Hamatha said:


> I usually find, I start with more of a beat/Rhythmic Idea and work from there building chord progression and such.. maybe I'm a bit backwards?



Bullshit, there's no such thing as a right way to write, nor is there an incorrect way.



SirMyghin said:


> (the basslines evolve in complexity from simpler with fills to full RUSH-like glory.)


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## troyguitar (Jan 18, 2011)

Hamatha said:


> Hrmm, good stuff so far. I'm interested in how people feel about writing with computer programs(mostly GP). Troyguitar, how exactly do you go about working around vocal lines? I never really got HOW to write around vocal lines, maybe listening to too much busy instrumental music. I usually find, I start with more of a beat/Rhythmic Idea and work from there building chord progression and such.. maybe I'm a bit backwards?



I just figure out the melody on piano or guitar and write it down so that I can harmonize it. Other times vocals are the very last thing I write, it all just depends on what comes to my mind first.


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## avenger (Jan 19, 2011)

I tend to have two issues while writing, structure and perfection. Structure I think I have solved by writing out song structures and then fitting my riffs and chords intot he proper places to form a good flow. The perfectionism part is a pain though. I am always reworking, removing, updating stuff so I never get anything done.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 19, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> I need to play through something a few times before I come into my stride playing bass (the basslines evolve in complexity from simpler with fills to full RUSH-like glory.)





SchecterWhore said:


>



You can typically tell how much work I put into a song by the bassline.  (sometimes I get lazy)


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## Varcolac (Jan 19, 2011)

I sit around and I noodle. Sometimes awesome things happen. Sometimes they don't. If they're awesome I tab them out in GP5, adding keys and drums and whichever one of guitar or bass that I wasn't playing when the awesome thing happened. 

Then either I have a great idea for what comes next, or it just sits as a riff in a folder on my laptop for ages. Sometimes I'll remember it months later and put it into a different song. More often than not it remains in the folder. Sometimes I try making songs out of the various layers of riffs in the folder. Mostly that doesn't work. 

I present songs as pretty much complete items. Then it's just a case of working out if it works, and then if we can all play it as written, or whether we need to negotiate it somewhat.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 19, 2011)

I'd like to iterate further on my first post. As far as the content of a composition goes, I think of things this way: every tune has a gimmick. Sometimes, it's clever or humorous lyrics, sometimes it's a particular harmonic device, sometimes it's some rhythmic thing (POLLYRIVUMS ), sometimes it's a technique, sometimes it's a particular instrumentation... you get the point, it's something you can say about the song. I don't think of that sort of thing 100% of the time when I am writing, since it usually comes through the course of writing, anyway (unless you're doing something terribly, terribly wrong ), but I'm certainly conscious of it, and I certainly exploit the device to my advantage. Basically, just take an idea and run with it. Development, structural unity, etc.

Of course, that is a somewhat cerebral approach. You can compose a lot on that, but the general consensus in our era is that music should have meaning to the composer, at the very least. But it's also difficult to be clever when you're deliberately avoiding being clever, so the middle ground is to start with an idea that reflects something emotional or philosophical, something that moves you, write something on that, and then go through your bag of music theory tricks to elaborate upon that idea.


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## Hamatha (Jan 19, 2011)

Oh, does anyone here feel like they have a certain time of day where they write the best material? For me unfortunately, I find myself writing a lot the material I like in the MIDDLE of the night.... or like 5 o clock in the morning. I find any other time, I end up just tone tweaking or coming up with boring/bad/generic ideas.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm on the same boat as SchecterWhore. Nowadays I write almost exclusively without an instrument. Either I think of something in my head, or something comes to me via inspiration or maybe divine intervention lol, and I usually base it on just the foundational melody and harmony. Then I either sribble it down with non strict notation or chords or whatever, or reach for the nearest instrument (usually either guitar or piano) and try to play it. 

I still write odd riffs whenever inspiration comes stiking down, but nowadays, I feel more liberated when I'm writing songs with just the foundations first, and then adding all the instrument arrangements or gimmicks later on. 

And inspirations can strike any time and any place. Hell, I wrote an entire song on a plane to Tokyo while listening to Eurotrance, and completed the full arrangement on the way back to Melbourne.  The key is to recognise and seize it.


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## shanejohnson02 (Jan 19, 2011)

For me, melody is everything. That being said, Harmony is nearly equal, and I like finding an interesting harmonic relationship, even if it means tweaking the original melody a bit to make it fit some cool chord change. Still, I-IV-V and vi-ii-V-I still have their place. 

The hardest part for me after all of this is lyrics. I'll usually record a vocal part using a guitar in place of the vocals, then treat it like a scratch track when I'm recording the vocals. It makes it easier to sing in tune with the instrument, even for a singer who naturally has a good sense of pitch.

Another cool thing is to try new voicings and cross-instrument inversions. By this, I mean instead of simply playing all the notes of a first inversion chord on the guitar, I'll try playing only the root and fifth, while having the bass cover the third, and having the vocals double the root or third. This is a simple example and I'm not the first one to think of it by any means, but it opens up a whole world of possibilities when you think of it in a whole-band context like this.

In the end though, all of this together must serve the song. If it doesn't flow, I typically throw it out. This is where a good knowledge of song structure comes in handy. Some people like unstructured, or a loose structure, but a majority of listeners will be drawn to a very structured form, i.e. intro/verse/bridge/chorus/verse etc.


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## Realbebop (Jan 20, 2011)

shanejohnson02 said:


> For me, melody is everything. That being said, Harmony is nearly equal, and I like finding an interesting harmonic relationship, even if it means tweaking the original melody a bit to make it fit some cool chord change. Still, I-IV-V and vi-ii-V-I still have their place.
> 
> The hardest part for me after all of this is lyrics. I'll usually record a vocal part using a guitar in place of the vocals, then treat it like a scratch track when I'm recording the vocals. It makes it easier to sing in tune with the instrument, even for a singer who naturally has a good sense of pitch.
> 
> ...



This describes my approach as well. I find that basing whatever your writing off of vocal melody, really brings everything together for me so to speak. For me it's almost like my vocal melody is my lead sheet.


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## Forresterc (Jan 20, 2011)

For me, it depends on the genre for which I'm writing for. I've written for Thrash Metal, Acoustic Rock, and Prog Rock. Ultimately though, songs only form for me when i have a particular musically idea that i want to explore

For anything i do for metal, i always start with a riff i came up with in practice and gets stuck in my head. I tab that stuff out so i don't forget and put all my tabs into a folder. Later, when i feel inspired, i return to them and either paste them together or try to form them out. I always have a terrible time with metal because after about 1minute and 30 seconds i star recycling stuff and it doesn't contain the focus like i want songs to have.

For Acoustic rock, I start playing something that sounds catchy, and then start singing along with it until a melody comes out. As soon as that happens, i start writing lyrics immediately. I usually get a basic song done with chords and vocals, and then i show it to my other bandmates (usually only another guitarist), and we expand all the ideas into something we think is interesting.

For prog-rock, which is my favorite, is a combination of a lot of things. I really feel like i can express myself best because i can start the song in so many ways. I have an entire 7 minute song that i wrote in class on GP without hearing it, just imagining it. When i finally got back to playing my guitar for it, i changed a lot, but it was so awkward compared to how i normally write it came out sounding really unique (btw, don't do this unless you have a good grasp of what your tabbing out, no random notes on tab programs). Another song was just a interesting chord progression that i brought to practice one day the bandmates just fucking took it and ran off with it, came back with a song 30 minutes later. Other times the songs form out of the failed songs from the acoustic stuff and the metal stuff which i re-write a year or two after when i have a better focus with what i want out of the songs.
---> Ultimately though, once these songs are down, i sit down and truly listen to the song and the vocals, and try to figure out what the song is about, what moment it's trying to capture or what emotion it's trying to get across. Once i have a good idea, i cut the things that don't support that idea and i start adding newer things that do. This i feel is the most important part of songwriting. I work with a lot of musicians and most of them don't understand this concept. When you do this you have the freedom to break out of traditional styles (like verse chorus verse chorus) or outside of 4/4 or outside of harmony or anything else that can come across as original because you have the chance to edit the song to get across that idea in whatever way you think can do that. Example: in one of our (my band With Black Jackets) songs, the entire band stops playing in the middle of the bridge while the singer finally say "gone", we wait 4 counts and we come back in with the same chord structure and tempo, but with a jazz feel. The song is suppose to be about a relationship ending and that part of the song is suppose to represent how life moves on even if it's different than you expected it would be from.

Even if we don't capture that idea perfectly, i still think it's respectable that we try too and that we took the time to think of the music like that.

Sorry if this is a long post, but i hope it helps.


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## Hamatha (Jan 22, 2011)

Yet another question, do any of you guys have something to AID in your song writing? I usually have a pot, of Coffee/tea or sometimes green tea. I'm sure other people will respond with other green substances..... but whatever helps I guess. Anyways yeah, I find it "lubricates" the writing process, any of you guys find this also?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 22, 2011)

Hamatha said:


> Yet another question, do any of you guys have something to AID in your song writing? I usually have a pot, of Coffee/tea or sometimes green tea. I'm sure other people will respond with other green substances..... but whatever helps I guess. Anyways yeah, I find it "lubricates" the writing process, any of you guys find this also?



Thinking, mostly. I can't really write well if I'm not totally conscious. That, and pressure.


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## Forresterc (Jan 22, 2011)

Hamatha said:


> Yet another question, do any of you guys have something to AID in your song writing? I usually have a pot, of Coffee/tea or sometimes green tea. I'm sure other people will respond with other green substances..... but whatever helps I guess. Anyways yeah, I find it "lubricates" the writing process, any of you guys find this also?



Sleep deprivation helps. For some reason i write my best stuff at 3 in the morning on Saturdays (after a long friday). I save coffee for recording, but i drink a lot of coffee everyday anyways, so it's always kinda there. I never drink alcohol when i'm doing something serious in music, like practice or writing or recording. One or two drinks is fine if you want/need to relax, but it doesn't help at all imo (playing live has a bit more leeway, but most of my bandmates have overdone it on more than one occasion).

As for other green substances (THC right?), I've seen it ruin concentration and most guitarist and bassist I've played with just come up with shitty ideas. I have a singer though that it surprisingly works well for him. From my experience it's much better used to appreciate art than to create it, but whatever works for you is cool. It's all about self expression, and if thats how you want to create your music thats cool.


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## Explorer (Jan 22, 2011)

I have a few approaches to start out, but they all have something in common. 

The biggest help when writing? **Always roll tape!**

If I'm in the car, I can pull out the little recorder I got at Radio Shack/Best Buy and sing a vocal or melodic line into a recorder, or lyrics, or a bass line. I can add as much as I can come up with at that point, and then listen later, instead of trying to remember. 

If I'm playing an instrument at home, I can work something to death, and then go back and listen to see if there are any ideas I liked in what came out. 

Basically, anything which frees you from the break in creativity caused by having to notate is a huge help. 

----

I might start with a particular chord progression, and then start scatting vocal lines and lyrics on top of that. 

I might start with a vocal or melodic line, and then look at chord progressions which work.

Going back and forth, I might change the vocal line or chord progression to really make something fit better. Nothing is sacred, with the exception of holding true to musical surprise. 

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If I think I have a decent idea, I make sure I have it down clearly... and then I strip it back to voice and either acoustic guitar or piano. If it needs more to make it work, then it's not a good enough structure on which to hang the decorations, and it will only be the gimmicks for gimmicks' sake. 

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I try to be conversational in my lyrics. If I wouldn't say it normally, I will definitely not twist language into strange inversions to make it work as a lyric. 

(One lyric which always makes me wince: "Heavy boots of lead fill his victims full of dread." You've got fill/full going on; why repeat it? Even "Heavy boots of lead make his victims fill with dread" is a little better. "Echoing boots of lead make his victims fill with dread" just makes it more evocative, because you know what's coming at you from down the street.)

Rhyming dictionaries rule, incidentally, as well as thesauruses. 

----

There's a lot more I do, but really, those are the main starting points for me. Writing riffs is also a tried and true technique, as is using the basis of another song to start a new song, and then altering that basis. Studying money chord progressions (progressions which have been used in lots of hit songs) is instructive.

Good luck!


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## troyguitar (Jan 23, 2011)

Explorer said:


> The biggest help when writing? **Always roll tape!**



This is huge. I've forgotten more good stuff than I'd like to admit because it just came out once spontaneously and was not recorded. Probably at least 2 CD's worth of tunes


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## Grank (Jan 23, 2011)

What I personally do is think of a theme, person, or subject and personify it through an emotion I can connect to it. Examples: My mom's friend Alice, A Dog with a Poopy Butt (yes I have recorded that one), anything that is silly, a "fail" video.

Try adding music to a video on youtube that you feel would fit, or even Television.

What not to do: random stuff on the fretboard.

That's my 2¢


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## jymellis (Jan 23, 2011)




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## shanejohnson02 (Jan 23, 2011)

> The biggest help when writing? *Always roll tape!*



YES! RECORD EVERYTHING, EVEN IF IT SUCKS.

Seriously, you'll be amazed what might sound good 3, 6, 12 months down the road. Also it's a handy way to keep ideas flowing.

David Gilmour used to sing into a tape recorder to come up with his epic solos. Works for him.


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## jaddisguitarless (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm simple i sit down and play around tell i get a what sounds like a good to me and try to add to it, but eventually i run into a brick wall and nothing comes. At that point i put it into Power Tabs to the best of my abilities and work at in in Power Tabs. I'm very limited though because i know absolutely no theory except besides what i know from ear. As my dad says I "Fly by the seat of my Pants"


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 26, 2011)

shanejohnson02 said:


> YES! RECORD EVERYTHING, EVEN IF IT SUCKS.


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## Dvaienat (Jan 29, 2011)

I just sit down with my guitar, and start playing a few riffs. If I come up with something good, I build other parts around it, such as a variation on the riff, or a harmony. Once I have the riffs together and in order, I'll practice playing it through.
I don't use any sort of music theory to help me. I have no knowledge of scales, modes or time signatures, so I just write by ear and go with what sounds good to me. 
Sometimes the idea for a riff will come from something I imagined, and then I'll play it on the guitar, if that makes sense.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Jan 29, 2011)

what I do is get my camera rolling and just let out what I'm feeling. Thank God for the camera because for the lyrics after doing it once I can't remember it all . Other than that I just play around with notes and intervals to match the "idea" in my head.


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## lookralphsbak (Jan 30, 2011)

I've written music by myself in the past, usually with an idea in my head and I just tab away or I have an idea that I play on guitar and tab it so I can remember it. Sometimes I just play something by accident and end up liking it and progressing it. I'm currently writing a doom song for my band. Basically venting my emotions into a really depressing song lol. Usually listening to music similar to what you want to write helps A LOT. In terms of this song I'm writing I feel a certain way so I decided I would write a song that describes how I feel, I started with a clean intro that I created through jamming. I tabbed it and have been progressing it since. Right now I have a 2 min 30 sec clean intro, the first verse, and a melody to bridge the verse to the chorus. I want to repeat that melody at the end of the song and fade it out because it's that fucking good. I'm also writing lyrics for the song and hoping my singer digs them. I'm not great at composing, it takes me a long time to write music and it's rare I write something good. I showed my bass player the song I'm working on and he gave it an 8/10, he liked the ideas in the song and said that some parts needed work so that's good to hear especially since I'm not really a huge part in the writing process for my band.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jan 30, 2011)

I just load up the DAW and jam for 20 minutes, playing anything I like slowly so I can decipher it later. All to a click track or simple drum beat. After that, I have a listen back for Good Parts. These I chop up, rerecord and use to inspire me. Basically, keep cutting until all thats left looks like a song. Once it has taken shape, arrange and jam over the top for a lead line. Add production, mix, complete.

Why would anyone work with Guitar Pro when DAW's are so cheap and easy? I only use it to help other players decode my tunes and prepare for rehearsal, saves time. I've got a friend who crafts meticulous works in guitar pro, takes weeks, and they're not even useful as demos. Any junk idea I throw down on the DAW to rest on my HDD until I get reinspired by it sound good for demos. If you use GP to write, I urge you to look into Reaper and Waves GTR Solo, use that for you demo and song writing, SOOOOO MUUUUCCCHHH E Z R.

Guitar Pro can be useful for mind melting solos to be tabbed, but Why not export midi from the sequencer and import into guitar pro, getting the notes all from one screen on the DAW? Who knows... Just some thoughts.

that's my mechanical process. If I'm stuck for inspiration I just won't touch a guitar for as long as possible. The magic always returns when I go back. 

Arrangement is key!


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## edd (Jul 9, 2011)

I some times get an idea in my head and try it out and work off that idea. other times i'll just sit down with my guitar (turned up loud cause its how i go) and just start with a open notes, find a rythm, and start adding notes in, and it usualy works out.


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## Lrrrr (Jul 11, 2011)

Alot of the suggestions so far have been based on already having an idea, either in your head or a riff you came up with just noodling around. Sometimes, though, coming up with an original and interesting riff can be tough. 

What I like to do is loop a drum track in my DAW, usually just a few repetitive bars. You can come up with some really interesting stuff depending on the drums you choose to play over. Try playing metal over a jazz or country track and you might be surprised at how cool some of your stuff comes out. Also, when I do this, I find many of my riffs fit together better within a song since I usually develop them with the same or similar backing tracks in mind.


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## nostealbucket (Jul 11, 2011)

first, at the worst times possible, a riff or groove just sort of pops into my mind.. when that ends, I end up messing with certain chords and intervals. Thats been doing it for me.


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## Black_Sheep (Jul 13, 2011)

I always have some kinda vision in my head to start with. I think about it over and over before even touching the guitar. Then, i try to play it and write it in Guitar Pro (not really a big fan either, but it's damn easy, and if i want to send it to one of my bandmates to learn, it's quick)


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