# Israel Palestinian Conflict: The Truth About the Peace Process



## Blake1970 (Sep 15, 2011)

Everyone sound off. I would to know everyone's opinion on this video. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAuBc_cbXo0&feature=player_embedded#!


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## AySay (Sep 15, 2011)

That video is the definition of "biased"


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## Jakke (Sep 15, 2011)

1. This is extremely biased

2. There is no single bad guy in this conflict
And
3. Israel say as much "no" as the palestinians





I would not trust a piece of material from a part who has something to gain in a conflict


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## Captain Shoggoth (Sep 15, 2011)

Biased.

And I'm biased against Israel so that's all I can add


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## Sephael (Sep 15, 2011)

I'd point to the video shared a while back about the treatment of the arabs in Israel. Shit isn't right there and both sides are at fault, but too emotionally and culturally involved now to admit where they have made mistakes.


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## SwampAshSpecial (Sep 15, 2011)

Im way too biased/emotionally involved to get into a discussion about this so I'm going to post once and I probably won't check back on this thread at all, BUT:

- that video was biased
- both sides have done wrong in this
- most popular media is also very biased - and thats not towards israel, although I do find american media seems to lean more towards them... people like the BBC tend to be subtly anti-israel though in very unfair ways.
- I believe the existence of Israel as a Jewish state is essential, and I believe in a 2/3 state solution, but, despite being in support of israel, this does not mean that I in any way support every (or even many) actions taken by its current government.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 15, 2011)

Israel sits opn the stolen land, that's the reason why Palestinian acts where before '64.
The video is not just Biased, it tries to use some very stupid logic to manipulate undereducated.
If the jews should own a land, after the WW2, they should have given a big pieceof the US or Australia. But no, the "lone and weak" palastine was chosen. And that eevn long before WWI.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 15, 2011)

SwampAshSpecial said:


> Im way too biased/emotionally involved to get into a discussion about this so I'm going to post once and I probably won't check back on this thread at all, BUT:
> 
> - that video was biased
> - both sides have done wrong in this
> ...



BBC is clearly biased towards Israel. many videos to find about it.
Like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpDB-i1gigw


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## Sephael (Sep 15, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> If the jews should own a land, after the WW2, they should have given a big pieceof the US or Australia. But no, the "lone and weak" palastine was chosen.


....you do understand there was a far, far bigger reason than palastine being weak right?


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 16, 2011)

Sephael said:


> ....you do understand there was a far, far bigger reason than palastine being weak right?



Cmon man, the war was there because Their land was stolen. %90 of the land was owned by the palestinian populatian, which was "donated" under British, American and European mandate to the Jews.
If I would come with 20 000 Germans to your state, begin to claim that the land was promised by God to us, and than UN resolution tells you to give us the %50 of the land ( The fertile and good part mostly), although you and your nation owns the %90, what would you do?
That is exactly what happened, the only difference is, America is strong, Palestine was poor.

The typical propoganda to the European Jews that their "promised land" was "empty and ready" for them was a great lie and worked like a charm. I know enough History and I can back my claims. I also advice to watch Occupation 101 and the BBC documentary "The birth of Israel".


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## Sephael (Sep 16, 2011)

not saying the situation isn't fucked up, nor did I say anything about the reason for the war. Only that the Palastine wasn't chosen because it was weak, but because of the location of jeruselum. Can't not look at the situation in an entirty of history of the jews and the land tho.

<- Second generation German so I would be fine. And as part Shoshone, wouldn't be the first nation to say god gave them the charge of controlling my land (manifest destinyanyone?)


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 17, 2011)

Sephael said:


> not saying the situation isn't fucked up, nor did I say anything about the reason for the war. Only that the Palastine wasn't chosen because it was weak, but because of the location of jeruselum. Can't not look at the situation in an entirty of history of the jews and the land tho.
> 
> <- Second generation German so I would be fine. And as part Shoshone, wouldn't be the first nation to say god gave them the charge of controlling my land (manifest destinyanyone?)



See 

OTOH, Some of the Zionists where leftist Atheists and had not "Jerusalem" in mind at all, and suggested other parts of the world. But they agreed on "Palestine" since that place was "Empty", or no man's land.


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## Sephael (Sep 17, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Some of the Zionists where leftist Atheists


 You lost any sense of credibility in my eyes with that statement. Besides the whole atheist part (which I can't address adequately without leading to a ban) you are going to base your stance off of what "some" were instead of the far larger majority?


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 17, 2011)

Sephael said:


> You lost any sense of credibility in my eyes with that statement. Besides the whole atheist part (which I can't address adequately without leading to a ban) you are going to base your stance off of what "some" were instead of the far larger majority?



If you could read, you wouldn't post that nonsense. Read again, and if you still can't understand, I could write you a PM in German. 
I don't put my stance because of that said minority. I put my stance on my own thoughts.
Nobody can give the jews the right to steal the land of others. I don't give a flying fuck which god give whom what rights. Or if Britain and America decided to make a new Homeland for then 160 000 people. Nobody has that right to steal from the poor and give to the rich.

I also think the top Zyonists are not even believers, since they wouldn't massacre, torture and exile all those helpless people.

But there is one thing that keeps my mind busy. How come the USA gave 104 billion Dollars between 1946 and 2008 to 5 million people? 20 million dollars per head is ofcourse enough to keep a fortress in the middle of the Middle East. How come the taxpayers are not aware of it and even if they don't care? 20 million per capita in 52 years would skyrocket the American healthcare quality, education and science.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 17, 2011)

Both sides are as bad as each other, and most of this has been made worse by the various promises the US and UK made to both parties. It's a massive clusterfuck of blaming and 'well they killed one of our guys, so let's kill 10 of theirs'. They all need to grow the fuck up and realise they'll be better off if they set an example to the rest of mankind and put their differences aside.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Sep 17, 2011)

What the Palestinians are doing isn't necessarily right, but their land has been taken, their homes destroyed, innocents killed or treated like second-class citizens, practices enacted today but in fact starting right from the formation of Israel (the Irgun paramilitary group, on a related note, I recommend watching the serial The Promise on the subject). Disgusting behaviour for any peoples, and mortifyingly hypocritical for a people who had endured genocide at the hands of the Nazis. What Israel does now is the same thing, barely veiled, if at all.

I don't think Israel (govt.) particularly cares for peace, they have the upper hand, I think they'd rather all the Palestinians were gone.

Just my


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## groph (Sep 18, 2011)

^ I would HATE to be that girl's boyfriend.


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## Jakke (Sep 18, 2011)

Captain Shoggoth said:


>




I can agree to a certain extent with this guy, although the world is not as black and white. It is both Israels and the palestinians fault that we have a conflict. Hatred and vitriol passed down through generations and generations until hatred has become the norm down there, and that is punishing everyone.

I certainly do not agree with the later victim mentality among the jewish, what they faced during the holocaust was unspeakable (I've been to Auschwitz-Birkenau and seen the horror myself), and they have been persecuted even before that. 
But they cannot continue to play the great victim in the world, Israel is an extremely powerful state, they are no longer the underdog. I was pleased to see that girls condescending question getting shot down by him, for whom would have more right to critize Israel, than a descendant of holocaust survivors? 

Pulling out emotional arguments like that is demeaning for a discussion, and it honours him that he originally didn't want to tell them about his descent, and only used it when he had to.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Sep 18, 2011)

Jakke said:


> I can agree to a certain extent with this guy, although the world is not as black and white. It is both Israels and the palestinians fault that we have a conflict. Hatred and vitriol passed down through generations and generations until hatred has become the norm down there, and that is punishing everyone.
> 
> I certainly do not agree with the later victim mentality among the jewish, what they faced during the holocaust was unspeakable (I've been to Auschwitz-Birkenau and seen the horror myself), and they have been persecuted even before that.
> But they cannot continue to play the great victim in the world, Israel is an extremely powerful state, they are no longer the underdog. I was pleased to see that girls condescending question getting shot down by him, for whom would have more right to critize Israel, than a descendant of holocaust survivors?
> ...



I pretty much agree with you 100% here, of course there is no such thing as conflict involving one party, both are implicit and continuing it whether official (Hamas) or unofficial (terrorist acts such as the awful murder of the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games). Palestine is definitely of course also to blame for the _ongoing conflict_, yes. But Israel is bigger, more powerful and has more clout (if one wants a metaphor, one could say that it is a young daughter who has her father wrapped around her little finger, with Israel being the daughter and the USA being the father).

They aren't the victims anymore. They were, and they should know better because of that.


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## Jakke (Sep 18, 2011)

Captain Shoggoth said:


> I pretty much agree with you 100% here, of course there is no such thing as conflict involving one party, both are implicit and continuing it whether official (Hamas) or unofficial (terrorist acts such as the awful murder of the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games). Palestine is definitely of course also to blame for the _ongoing conflict_, yes. But Israel is bigger, more powerful and has more clout (if one wants a metaphor, one could say that it is a young daughter who has her father wrapped around her little finger, with Israel being the daughter and the USA being the father).
> 
> They aren't the victims anymore. They were, and they should know better because of that.



Yep, it's pretty much: "We were the victims, now it's time to show the world that the jews are no-one's door-matt!"

Hamas doesn't make a peace process easier either for that matter.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 18, 2011)

hamas where fed by the US and Israel to shut down Arafat. Israel is pretty much well with the conflict. Without the conflict, who would doante so much money and military equip?
I say again, over 20 MILLION US DOLLARS per head. And it's just the American help. Europe, Russia, and the whole money Germany paid and still pays is not calculated.


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## Ancestor (Sep 19, 2011)

Jakke said:


> 1. This is extremely biased
> 
> 2. There is no single bad guy in this conflict
> And
> ...



that's it. well said. there has been conflict in this area of the world for a long, long time. i don't think it will ever end. 

it's one of the reasons why i really don't like religion. too much blood spilled over ideologies.


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## Quitty (Sep 19, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> hamas where fed by the US and Israel to shut down Arafat. Israel is pretty much well with the conflict. Without the conflict, who would doante so much money and military equip?
> I say again, over 20 MILLION US DOLLARS per head. And it's just the American help. Europe, Russia, and the whole money Germany paid and still pays is not calculated.



I can't even begin to state how silly that would be of the Israeli government and you, my dear, have not the slightest clue as to what you're talking about - no offense.

I should be indisputably biased but the truth of the matter is i'm actually very much for the institution of a Palestinian country - i believe it is inevitable.
With that said, there's so much bullshit surrounding the subject, so much propaganda and - hell, so much Palestinian PR people (they are, at the end of the day, so much better than the Israeli government at this... You wouldn't believe it) that i don't believe anyone who hasn't been living in this country for a good, long while has any right to an opinion - 
simply put, you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm going to try and stick to facts here as i believe - as a resident - i have most of 'em right.
Bear in mind i am an avid supporter of the general concept behind a Palestinian country, but object to the bullshit and hypocrisy involved.

Also bear in mind this is going to be a little long-winded. If you're genuinely curious, bear with me.

This was indeed arab turf, prior to 1948. Historically speaking, it belonged to the Ottoman empire - meaning the Turkish.
The British colonization that followed when the Ottoman empire shrunk was accepted by the arabs who couldn't care less and rejected - violently - by the Jewish population - so it came to be that in 1948, we had an Israeli country declared.
The war that followed was instigated by the surrounding arab countries who didn't really like the concept of a foreign religion setting in the middle - and back in the day, it had some strategic importance as well that they were loathe to hand over.
So we fought, and we won, and we stayed.

So far so good?

The initial concept was a Jewish-democratic country, and the ugly truth is that the local, arab populace were breeding much, much faster than us - so it was either be Jewish, be democratic, or be creative.
The newly-tauted 'Israeli people' invited every foreign Jew over - and many of them came and started building the country, pretty much from scratch.
The Jews who actually took the plunge were the ones who could support themselves in such circumstances - meaning they were rich and lazy, as Europeans usually are , and thus made a habit of hiring the residing arab population for manual labor, mostly - we paid well and they never minded much.
And no, i'm not serious about the Europeans 

Then came the early Palestinian leadership, and it all went to shit.
No one knows who grouped them together but it is assumed they were financed by the surrounding arab countries - don't take my word for it though, it is mere speculation.
What they did, however, is factual - they grouped most of the residing arab tribes under a banner of disowned, miserable individuals - and set out to war.
They rebelled, initially - they quit their jobs, they refused to trade with Israeli settlements - and consequentially, they lost all their money and lands - and drove the Israeli snobs to work their own fields, which only benefited them in the long run - 
then they turned individually and quite randomly violent - and were pushed away from the main settlements into the Gaza strip and other areas that gain less media exposure nowadays.

Every once in a while the pressure mounts and they stage some 'incident' - 
I remember the Israeli government 'shutting down power to the Gaza strip' with photos of torch-wielding Palestinians walking the streets with bright neon-lights in the background behind them .

Every couple of weeks they fire a few bombs at Israeli settlements -
they mount the mortars in residential areas without notifying the residents, then wait for Israeli air-force retaliation (they can't put troops in there. When they do, it's an 'invasion', 'occupation' or just 'martial law') -
then they go public and claim the government is murdering civilians.
A big part of those operations, mind you, has nothing to do with the Palestinians - the government receives vast finances from various arab countries - namely Syria, Iran and Lybia.

On the other hand, you've got Jewish right-wing extremists invading Palestinian turf and, quite literally, setting up camp.
Our stupid-assed government then pays them because we're a socialist country and they can't be abandoned - and our government is too unstable to actually force them out of there.

The bottom line is that both sides are complete and total asses, forced by circumstances.
In my own, humble opinion, no one should die for land nowadays. There's just no justification for any of this in a smallish global village such as planet earth.

The Israeli government isn't doing everything it can to make good - not by a long shot.
But, at the same time, at least we aren't consciously trying to murder civilians.


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## Jakke (Sep 19, 2011)

Quitty said:


> I can't even begin to state how silly that would be of the Israeli government and you, my dear, have not the slightest clue as to what you're talking about - no offense.
> 
> I should be indisputably biased but the truth of the matter is i'm actually very much for the institution of a Palestinian country - i believe it is inevitable.
> With that said, there's so much bullshit surrounding the subject, so much propaganda and - hell, so much Palestinian PR people (they are, at the end of the day, so much better than the Israeli government at this... You wouldn't believe it) that i don't believe anyone who hasn't been living in this country for a good, long while has any right to an opinion -
> ...



^This, both sides are to blame for this disaster, and I believe the only option is new government on both sides (since the current is totally batshit crazy) and a palestinian state. Any other solution is unsustainable, why? Because jews and muslims are too different, the jews in Israel are _generally_ more devout jews (there are of course exeptions), and the palestinians, although moderate muslims in general, are muslims, muslims tend to be very devout people.

So you have two sides in one country, both wants religious principles to influence their law, one of the sides holy book calls the other people "unholy pigs" (the Quran actually says that, check it for yourselves), the other side would probably call the first side something mean if the first side had existed when the others holy book was written. 

What do we have then? We have the powder-keg that is the middle east, where devout people are told by their highest authority that it's okay to kill their neighbours if they belong to the other religion. And that is seriously fucked up, they put their religious identity before their fellow mans humanity, with the result we see in the middle east.


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## Quitty (Sep 19, 2011)

Jakke said:


> ^This, both sides are to blame for this disaster, and I believe the only option is new government on both sides (since the current is totally batshit crazy) and a palestinian state. Any other solution is unsustainable, why? Because jews and muslims are too different, the jews in Israel are _generally_ more devout jews (there are of course exeptions), and the palestinians, although moderate muslims in general, are muslims, muslims tend to be very devout people.
> 
> So you have two sides in one country, both wants religious principles to influence their law, one of the sides holy book calls the other people "unholy pigs" (the Quran actually says that, check it for yourselves), the other side would probably call the first side something mean if the first side had existed when the others holy book was written.
> 
> What do we have then? We have the powder-keg that is the middle east, where devout people are told by their highest authority that it's okay to kill their neighbours if they belong to the other religion. And that is seriously fucked up, they put their religious identity before their fellow mans humanity, with the result we see in the middle east.



Couldn't have put it better.

I do want to state one thing, though, seeing as i've stuck my nose this far deep -
This has very little to do with the Palestinian or Israeli *people*.
On the Israeli side, this is mostly political pressure from right-wing religious groups hindering the government's willingness to do what is right and/or necessary, 
and on the Palestinian side this is mostly larger, more intensely-religious Muslim countries who are putting in a lot of money to turn misinformed civilians into terrorists.


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## Jakke (Sep 19, 2011)

Quitty said:


> Couldn't have put it better.
> 
> I do want to state one thing, though, seeing as i've stuck my nose this far deep -
> This has very little to do with the Palestinian or Israeli *people*.
> ...



Exactly, I would say, without living there, that most Israelis and Palestinians don't want to harm each other. It is the orthodox jews that hate muslims (the ones that chases Brüno in one of the most hilarious scenes in a movie ever) and the muslim extremists who hates jews. 

Furthermore, both governments have made this issue to a prestige issue, they cannot back down now without (as they believe) losing face, no matter how many lives are lost in the process. 

I strongly believe Avigdor Lieberman should be convicted for crimes against humanity for expanding the settlements inside palestinian land, as well as Hamas for with intent attacking israeli civilians.

*EDIT* To the the person who neg-repped me... Did I, in this post ever claim that Israel has aspired towards genocide? Or is it just a problem with reading comprehension? Do you, as the great expert on international law you probably are, know that there are other factors in crimes against humanity _other_ than genocide? Judging by your way of debating, you do not...
There is no right nor wrong here, you firmly seems to believe though that _your_ views are the correct ones, and I am in the wrong for suggesting that maybe the Israeli government has something to do with not the current conflict, and not only those "_bloodthirsty muslims_".

You know what? I dare you to come in here and discuss, instead of attacking me where I can't imediately defend my views, I dare you...


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## Dan (Sep 19, 2011)

I will put this as simply as possible:

You can't be both a country and a 'race' of people.

Thats all im saying on the matter. They need to choose a side and stick to it, not pull the race and religion card out every single fucking time someone talks about boundaries.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 19, 2011)

Quitty said:


> I can't even begin to state how silly that would be of the Israeli government and you, my dear, have not the slightest clue as to what you're talking about - no offense.
> 
> I should be indisputably biased but the truth of the matter is i'm actually very much for the institution of a Palestinian country - i believe it is inevitable.
> With that said, there's so much bullshit surrounding the subject, so much propaganda and - hell, so much Palestinian PR people (they are, at the end of the day, so much better than the Israeli government at this... You wouldn't believe it) that i don't believe anyone who hasn't been living in this country for a good, long while has any right to an opinion -
> ...



I really enjoyed the read and agree on the last parts.

But it seems that you totally "jumped" over the most important part of the conflict.
That is the very beginning of the Jewish Settmlements, in the end of 19. Century.

There was no conflict till the Brits promised both sides the same. Arabs who where living there where not "transported" there. They where always there. The Zionist leaders pushed the borders and created a huge wave of settlers, to sattle on other's land.
What you also don't talk about is how "Israel" was born. You had just the %8 of the land, but you got %53 by force. The UN just decided to give it to Jews although they had no right for it. Yes, and the rest is history. So saying that "Palestinians" do not agree on 2 land fiddy-fiddy options is because the land was never yours anyways. 
Its like me stealing Israel and than say "okay, i am good to you, you can have the half, also not the sea side and the good places. Somewhere in the east and dry would be fine "
And you would say " Fuck, it was never yours anyway, you shameless punk".

And don't forget the 100s of billions of dollars "investment" that needed only bloodshed and orpression to be achieved from other countries. All the Israelis living there now are Immigrants, or having Immigrant families or grant parents.

That is how it is. I am not ignorant about anything about this subject. I discuss it with israelis on daily basis, and some of them think exactly how I think. I dunno if they are as ignorant as I am.


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## Quitty (Sep 19, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> I really enjoyed the read and agree on the last parts.
> 
> But it seems that you totally "jumped" over the most important part of the conflict.
> That is the very beginning of the Jewish Settmlements, in the end of 19. Century.
> ...



Hmm... You are correct about the early Israeli settlement, but these lands were never taken by force - 
the boundaries were set up where the British wanted them. Israelis never could negotiate on the 'definition' of this land if they wanted - they were all so ecstatic to be getting their own land that frankly, no one cared - and the British set this up so that we're the ultimate thorn in the side of the middle east.
Think about it - we're talking about colonial Britain taking lands from the former great Ottoman empire, and they managed to stick a bunch of jews right in the middle between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt?
That's brilliant!

Concerning financing, i'm wondering where you're picking this up.
Financial support stopped in the early 70's -
are you referring to compensation some families receive on account of relatives murdered in the holocaust? Only a handful of those remain (the rest have died off) and these are all private hands.

If there's one thing you can take for granted for each and every government in the world is that no one's predominantly 'evil'. This is a business, and needs to be run efficiently - i don't think the Israeli government gives a shit about any separatist Palestinian populace until they start acting violently, and no one's going to waste time being 'oppressive' or generally 'unjust' just for kicks.

PS, while we're at it, the Palestinian authority has no source of income - and i do mean no source at all.
They buy their food, electricity and construction materials from Israel (which is sort of funny in it's own right... Their electricity is provided by the Israeli government which probably wishes they had some leverage on this) - 
all their money comes strictly from donations. Maybe you're mixing up the sides a bit?
I'm not completely following you on the immigrant thing either. Israel has been around for 65 years - that's less than one generation. Obviously, we're immigrants, or sons of immigrants. But what's that got to do with Palestinians?..


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## Captain Shoggoth (Sep 19, 2011)

Again just my own opinions, but what does everyone think of the notion that the Israeli government doesn't actively want to cause _harm_ to the Palestinians, but wants to expand the settlements as much as they are 'allowed' and is indifferent to the suffering caused by this?

Just the way I see it 



Jakke said:


> I strongly believe Avigdor Lieberman should be convicted for crimes against humanity for expanding the settlements inside palestinian land, as well as Hamas for with intent attacking israeli civilians.



I would rep the shit out of this if you weren't banned.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 19, 2011)

Quitty said:


> Hmm... You are correct about the early Israeli settlement, but these lands were never taken by force -
> the boundaries were set up where the British wanted them. Israelis never could negotiate on the 'definition' of this land if they wanted - they were all so ecstatic to be getting their own land that frankly, no one cared - and the British set this up so that we're the ultimate thorn in the side of the middle east.
> Think about it - we're talking about colonial Britain taking lands from the former great Ottoman empire, and they managed to stick a bunch of jews right in the middle between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt?
> That's brilliant!
> ...



Thanx for the great conversation! 

I am not mixing the sides. check: US Aid to Israel and the Palestinians

It is not funny that they buy everything from Israel. The whole material they buy would be destroyed buy big machines anyways, so Israel sells them again and again.
The Military forces has the right to do whatever they want to. Over 60 sanctions against the Israel held by the UN has no effect because of the US. 

The typical orpression or destruction for fun is a fact. Lot's of footage about it. Even the ex Israeli soldiers are telling what they did with great gergrets.





BTW, yes, their land was taken by force. 
Watch this: 

Pretty much neutral and let's everyone to say their opinions. You will understand it better how "stealing" worked.

And another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=wA1lDow-0rk&annotation_id=annotation_214712&v=ufLAitMq3zI&


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## Andromalia (Sep 25, 2011)

-Take all population of the area. Everyone.
-Separate men and women and Israelis from Palestinians.
-Marry each israeli man to a palestinian woman
-Marry every israeli woman to a palestinian man

Sex orgy and problem solved at next generation.


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## trippled (Oct 7, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Israel sits opn the stolen land, that's the reason why Palestinian acts where before '64.
> The video is not just Biased, it tries to use some very stupid logic to manipulate undereducated.
> If the jews should own a land, after the WW2, they should have given a big pieceof the US or Australia. But no, the "lone and weak" palastine was chosen. And that eevn long before WWI.



Well, I tried to avoid commenting on these posts but after I saw yours I felt my duty as an Israeli to comment.

You may say the Jewish settlers "stole" the country from the arabic people that were living here in villages at the time, I tend to partially agree, and I'm very aware that the state of Israel rose isn't the most pure thing on earth to say the least, every Israeli knows that, it's part of our history program in high school, but it's not really presented in a negative way.

But, saying that these Jewish people chose to settle in Israel seeking to take over a territory that was populated by weak people - sounds more like a neo natzi propaganda, or something you'd hear in al jazeera.

You can ask every reiligious jew you'll ever meet and he'll explain to you what Israel symbolizes for the jews, many believe that the jewish people were exiled from Israel thousands of years ago, I'm not religious and think that the bible isn't more authentic than the last Lord Of the rings book, I don't believe in any of this, but I know that the reason that Jews that were holocaust survivors and other jews from other countries immigrated to Israel is because their belief that after so many years of living among others and feel unsecured and hated they actually had an opportunity to found their lives again in the "holy land".

All that aside, you mustn't justify what terror organizations in the middle east do, they're attacking citizens, on purpose, when Israel kills Palestinians and you see that as a mass murder on news, it's because the guys who fires all these rockets to Israel's territory are hiding among citizens, that's the only way terror organizations are fighting, making it difficult for the army to react, creating manipulations around the world and making you believe that Israel kills Palestinians for fun and that the majority of citizens in Israel hates them.

This is not the case, and while that there are fucked up Israeli citizens that act in a way that the majority of Israeli citizens don't believe in, the fact is that the percentage of teenagers in Israel that are willing to serve in the army decreases from year to year, and in Israel you must serve in the army, it's against the law, I had to get a confirmation letter from a psychologist that I don't feat to serve as a fighter, I was a trash worker in the army, getting out of the base every day at 15:00 o'clock to play guitar, I don't care about wars, I don't care about the "holy land" of Israel. I just wanna live my life as a musician, there are more people like me in here than you would imagine, we might have allot more in common than you would imagine.

If it was up to me, I wouldn't be living here, the music crowd here is very limited, the amount of musicians you can play with is limited, this isn't a place for musicians, I want to be a music producer, I have nothing to do here, but yet, I'll be always afraid of being "the jew" in other countries, I'd like to be referred as to who I am as a person, I'm not sure if there's another place on earth aside Israel that I can be sure it would happen, abit sad, but that's the way it is.

The solution is 2 countries for two nations, and you can trust me that the majority of the people in Israel wants this, it's just isn't that simple to do when there are too many religious people in the country that has allot of power on the government, it's also not that simple to work this out with the current Palestinian partners, neither with the former ones to be fair.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 7, 2011)

trippled said:


> Well, I tried to avoid commenting on these posts but after I saw yours I felt my duty as an Israeli to comment.
> 
> You may say the Jewish settlers "stole" the country from the arabic people that were living here in villages at the time, I tend to partially agree, and I'm very aware that the state of Israel rose isn't the most pure thing on earth to say the least, every Israeli knows that, it's part of our history program in high school, but it's not really presented in a negative way.
> 
> ...



If you check the last video I posted above, you will see the view of a Jew. An ex soldier and Israeli jew. He tells exactly what I told, and he is definetly not a neo Nazi.

Listen,

The jewish people who "captured" palestinian terrain are not the ones who are exiled. Not even the 20. generation of them. They all came from Russia, Poland, West Europe and the US to settle there. Than they attacked (they still kill, watch the israeli made videos) palestinian territory as they still do today. Ben Gurion himself calimed that a Jewish state is not possible with Palestininas in it. Clear fact, from the top, the founding father. 
I am happy that you have a level head and try to see it differently, but face it. The "ugly" beginning never stopped. It still goes on. And if I would rush into your house from the wall and kill around, beat you without a reason, take your land and ask you to piss of or die, you would throw rockets after a while too. 
You talked about civilians women and children.

Check amnesty international and UN records about the Palestinian losses. How many children, cilvilians, old people where killed. Compare.


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## timbaline (Oct 7, 2011)

Alright as a stupid American Teenager who has been living in Sderot, Israel for the past few months let me share my view point.

First let me just say that I was tired and didn't thoroughly read every post before mine, I just quickly gave them a glance.

Alright so, I find that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is like playground politics. Both groups of people are acting like stupid babies when it comes to everything. It's Yom Kippur here, and I'm visiting friends in Modi'in, and there is a large group of Palestinians having a giant party and shooting fireworks and making a shitload of noise. Though on some days in Ramadan, there were a bunch of Israelis doing the same thing in Akko. It reminds me so much of myself and my sisters when we were 4 years old. We'd do stupid, rude, and obnoxious things just to get a reaction.

The town I've been living in, Sderot, is a town less than a kilometer from Gaza. So, the way I see it is this: Israel returns the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, supplies them with electricity and water, and what does it get in return? Qassams. Worst of all the Qassams aren't headed towards military forces they're headed straight for civilians in Sderot, and more recently Be'er Sheva, Ashkelon, Ashdod, and all the surrounding kibbuzes, Yoshuvs etc. I've had to go to the bomb shelters numerous times in these past few months because rockets are constantly fired into Sderot. Whenever this happens I always think "What if Mexico fired a missile into the US?" and the Answer is always "Mexico would be obliterated in a minute."

I just want to end with a few more points.
Both sides are wrong, but one side isn't constantly bombing civilians.
Both sides are acting ridiculous
A solution to the whole conflict would just be to have a giant dance party with the Palestinians and Israelis (I wish)


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## SwampAshSpecial (Oct 7, 2011)

Quitty said:


> Couldn't have put it better.
> 
> I do want to state one thing, though, seeing as i've stuck my nose this far deep -
> This has very little to do with the Palestinian or Israeli *people*.
> ...


+1


Also read the post above me. This man speaks the absolute truth.


demon barbeque I do see some of your points, but you need to research them more carefully, your credibility is destroyed by a few fantastically stupid statements...


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 8, 2011)

SwampAshSpecial said:


> +1
> 
> 
> Also read the post above me. This man speaks the absolute truth.
> ...



Which statements? Again, watch the video made by Israelis, and tell me I am wrong.


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## trippled (Oct 8, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Which statements? Again, watch the video made by Israelis, and tell me I am wrong.




There are different waves in the Israeli society/politics that wont be summed up or shown in only one video, the truth is that your opinion is super biased and you are searching for any piece of evidence to confirm it, you're not seeking for the truth, which is alot less extreme than what you'd like it to be.

I live here, I've seen this reality, I've lived this reality for 22 years, all you did is watching biased videos on youtube or reading biased articles in the news paper, you have to understand that the people in the media have interests, the people who own TV and News Paper companies are very powerful and most of the time they'd like the public to see a very specific angle of an event, to support their economical interests, they are guiding you believe in what you believe in, but the truth is that there isn't a good and a bad guy in this story, there are only alot of people that gets hurt for the interests of a few.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 8, 2011)

trippled said:


> There are different waves in the Israeli society/politics that wont be summed up or shown in only one video, the truth is that your opinion is super biased and you are searching for any piece of evidence to confirm it, you're not seeking for the truth, which is alot less extreme than what you'd like it to be.
> 
> I live here, I've seen this reality, I've lived this reality for 22 years, all you did is watching biased videos on youtube or reading biased articles in the news paper, you have to understand that the people in the media have interests, the people who own TV and News Paper companies are very powerful and most of the time they'd like the public to see a very specific angle of an event, to support their economical interests, they are guiding you believe in what you believe in, but the truth is that there isn't a good and a bad guy in this story, there are only alot of people that gets hurt for the interests of a few.



The truth is, I am Biased because I see the slaughter and orpression. You say it is not as bad as it it looks. Are all those ex soldiers lying? Are the numbers of death palestinians lying? Is the whole UN lying? These are my sources of information. And no, the media is not showing all of it. You have to dig deep to see it.
Go and travel around, see the destroyed houses, see the totally unacceptable new settlements. See how people wait in lines for hours to go to their jobs. And if this is not "as bad as it seems", just wear their clothes, make your self a false Palestinian ID and run around as an Arab. We will see how you got treated by your own soldiers, on a territory, which is not even theirs.


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## trippled (Oct 8, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> The truth is, I am Biased because I see the slaughter and orpression. You say it is not as bad as it it looks. Are all those ex soldiers lying? Are the numbers of death palestinians lying? Is the whole UN lying? These are my sources of information. And no, the media is not showing all of it. You have to dig deep to see it.
> Go and travel around, see the destroyed houses, see the totally unacceptable new settlements. See how people wait in lines for hours to go to their jobs. And if this is not "as bad as it seems", just wear their clothes, make your self a false Palestinian ID and run around as an Arab. We will see how you got treated by your own soldiers, on a territory, which is not even theirs.



Things are allot more complex than it seems, sure it's easier to judge seating at home watching stuff on a lcd screen.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 9, 2011)

trippled said:


> Things are allot more complex than it seems, sure it's easier to judge seating at home watching stuff on a lcd screen.



Yes, and who is sitting in nice houses and having LCD screens and who is suffering in Israel/Palestine?


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## Quitty (Oct 9, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Yes, and who is sitting in nice houses and having LCD screens and who is suffering in Israel/Palestine?



I'm sorry to say this, man, but it seems your reason and civility are waning - i'm not sure why.
The truth of the matter is that you don't know what you are talking about. That is an indisputable fact derived from the fact that all the info you can get your hands on comes from either the Palestinian or Israeli sides through media screening and censorship - meaning you're feeding on third-hand hearsay.

I'm not saying i'm better, nor is anyone else in this here thread -
but personally, i came here to learn and listen. True enough, you can't scare me with facts as i am painfully aware of most of them, having lived here and served in these allegedly 'occupied' lands. Furthermore, i agree on some of them being occupied - 
but there's a not-so-fine-line between discussion and preaching.
If you don't know for a fact, if you don't have hands-on experience, the best you can hope to get from this thread is opinions.
Stop for a bit. Listen. Don't be aggressive. 

PS, from purely hands-on experience i can tell you the average Palestinian isn't exactly sitting in his worn-down shack eating sand and playing 5 stones - 
though i assume they would have been, if it wasn't for all the financial support they're getting.
Now, if the IHH, for example, wasn't so prone on instigating an all-out war maybe that money could continue buying lcd screens for Gaza residents, if that's what qualifies as high-class living for you.
As it stands, that money is used to buy missiles that Israelis keep catching from the sharp ends


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 9, 2011)

Quitty said:


> I'm sorry to say this, man, but it seems your reason and civility are waning - i'm not sure why.
> The truth of the matter is that you don't know what you are talking about. That is an indisputable fact derived from the fact that all the info you can get your hands on comes from either the Palestinian or Israeli sides through media screening and censorship - meaning you're feeding on third-hand hearsay.
> 
> I'm not saying i'm better, nor is anyone else in this here thread -
> ...



Sorry but talking about financial help seems funny. The US paid you more than 20 million per head already, and you guys even have nuclear waepons. The Israel has more than 300 F 16s, that makes 300 times 30 million dollars.

I don't have to live there to be objective, in fact, you can't be objective yourself since you live there. Yes, most of my facts are taken from sources. But some of them are british sources, old ones. Not filtered. Other sources are journalists and historians, being actually pretty unbiased. What else, the UN for instance. Good source of information. Israeli's that get disgusted from their own land's actions. Actually a pretty well balanced mixture of sources if you ask me.

The truth is, if Israel would keep it's 8 % land and give back the rest, or pay for the land that Palestinians would agree to give, that would be fine with me. Otherwise, it's international bullying, it's murder and theft.


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## Quitty (Oct 9, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Sorry but talking about financial help seems funny. The US paid you more than 20 million per head already, and you guys even have nuclear waepons. The Israel has more than 300 F 16s, that makes 300 times 30 million dollars.



...And 3 million tanks. And laser satellites. 
And plasma cannons, and jetpack soldiers and horns on all of our heads that shoot anti-matter rays 
And let's not forget Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris is also on our side!

This is getting a tad argumentative for my tastes. 
I wish us all the best of luck, and invite you over - in as friendly and hospitable a manner as possible - to stay a week in my home in Jaffa. 
We have a spare bed and if you don't mind a motorcycle ride, i'll even take you for a trip through the occupied territories. See if i can't change your sense of proportion somewhat.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 9, 2011)

Quitty said:


> ...And 3 million tanks. And laser satellites.
> And plasma cannons, and jetpack soldiers and horns on all of our heads that shoot anti-matter rays
> And let's not forget Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris is also on our side!
> 
> ...



 I would like to come for a ride, but i fear that the discussion would get harder.
And why is it so hard to accept the amount of your own waepons. They are all well documented by Israeli officials except the A-Bomb, which is well documented by BBC, and even Peres accepted it. So no need for exegeration


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## SwampAshSpecial (Oct 9, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> I would like to come for a ride, but i fear that the discussion would get harder.
> And why is it so hard to accept the amount of your own waepons. They are all well documented by Israeli officials except the A-Bomb, which is well documented by BBC, and even Peres accepted it. So no need for exegeration



I have a feeling he might have been joking


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## Quitty (Oct 9, 2011)

SwampAshSpecial said:


> I have a feeling he might have been joking



Nope. And the offer stands if he changes his mind.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 9, 2011)

Quitty said:


> Nope. And the offer stands if he changes his mind.



I really appreciate the offer, I would like to come at least to drink and chat. Cheers for your kindness


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## Loomer (Oct 11, 2011)

Andromalia said:


> -Take all population of the area. Everyone.
> -Separate men and women and Israelis from Palestinians.
> -Marry each israeli man to a palestinian woman
> -Marry every israeli woman to a palestinian man
> ...



I'm gonna be very highly politically incorrect and make this joke, please don't take it as anything else: 

Why am I not surprised the solution proposed by the French dude involves lots of people having sex?! 

That said, if only that could happen it would be pretty awesome. Make love, not war, you know 

ON TOPIC:

One thing I think could be interesting to draw into the debate would be this: 

What about the way certain Israeli groups have been accused of milking the whole Holocaust thing for political clout, and stepping up the "awareness" of it in schools, even to the point where other horrific genocides against non-jews are reduced to footnotes in history class? 

Quitty, can you pitch in on this?


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## Quitty (Oct 11, 2011)

History 101: When Israel was a British colony, so to speak, there were 3 'Zionist' resistance groups active; _Lehi_, _Etsel _and _Hagana_.
_Lehi _(loosely translates as 'Israel Independence Fighters') was a full blown, certified terrorist organization. So were the _Etsel _(National Defense Organization).
The _Hagana _were something else, and come our declaration of independence they were the base that formed the Israeli army - they were by all accounts an exemplary, moral, responsible paramilitary organization. I'm not sure they ever killed anyone in their 28 years of existence - and it's certainly not that they weren't tempted.
While none of these ever assaulted civilians - probably because there were none to be found in Israel - The Etsel and Lehi murdered for ideology - and that makes them terrorists in my book.
The Hagana, in the meantime bombed bridges, sabotaged vehicles and helped other Zionists abroad come to Israel. No offensives.

When i was in school we studied about the three as if they were alike - i always found it insulting. 
You need to understand that Israel is a very, very young country - everything is fresh and real, genuine heroes are hard to come by - and our pluralist education system makes do with what we have. It's a tough concept to grasp for someone who lives in a country that has centuries of history to pick through in search of significant events and/or individuals.

And, well, yeah - our shit always stinks better. I never even heard of the Armenians or Kurds until i took the liberty of googling the names -
that does nothing to lessen the impact of the Holocaust on me, however. The fact that genocide happens does not make it legitimate - and i'm not sure Israelis are pushing the subject as much as the media does. 
We all have to be fed drama to justify the grand headlines; the Turkish ships headed for the Gaza strip weren't meant to break any siege because the siege wasn't there to begin with - the passages have been open for years now. They close when on a security lockdown - but money and merchandise flows freely in and out of the Gaza strip.

That said, 'Turkish ships sent to break the siege on the Palestinian Ghetto' sounds so much better, doesn't it?


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 11, 2011)

Quitty said:


> That said, 'Turkish ships sent to break the siege on the Palestinian Ghetto' sounds so much better, doesn't it?



the ship wasn't even Turkish. So much misinformation to "fish" attention from both sides.


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## Quitty (Oct 11, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> the ship wasn't even Turkish. So much misinformation to "fish" attention from both sides.



Wait, the Mavi Marmara isn't Turkish?..
I thought it belonged to the IHH.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 11, 2011)

Quitty said:


> Wait, the Mavi Marmara isn't Turkish?..
> I thought it belonged to the IHH.



Well, IHH bought it , but it is not registered in Turkey. It's registered to an Island like Comoros or something. That's a political move on Shithead Turkish prime minister and his clan, since it would bring a lot of "responsibility" for why letting them do what they did. They aslo pulled back a Turkish Senator at the last second who also wanted to go with the ship, who got a "warning for the danger". That would make the IHH ship somehow official, which it wasn't.Too many dirty shit. Islamists are a dangerous bunch, with no regrets or morals.


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## trippled (Oct 11, 2011)

You're welcome to my home as well (-: I don't have a bike, but you could take a ride on my bogner (-:


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## Grand Moff Tim (Oct 11, 2011)

Ships are often registered in countries where their crew isn't from and have completely different home ports. It's more about taxes than politics. It isn't even just the ships, actually. Some sailors get their papers from countries other than their nationalities because they're easier to acquire or have different benefits. When I was deployed to the Persian Gulf, I was the translator for a boarding team that boarded a Syrian-flagged ("Flagged" = port of registry) vessel whose entire crew, captain and home port were Iraqi. On board, some of the sailors had Iraqi passports, but Syrian or Lebanese shipping papers. Remember that "American" ship that was taken by pirates a few years ago, the Maersk Alabama? It's actually _Danish-_flagged.

I don't have anything of worth to contribute about the Israel-Palestine issue, but I figured I'd at least try to clear up the issues about ship nationality .


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## pink freud (Oct 11, 2011)

Andromalia said:


> -Take all population of the area. Everyone.
> -Separate men and women and Israelis from Palestinians.
> -Marry each israeli man to a palestinian woman
> -Marry every israeli woman to a palestinian man
> ...



I volunteer to use this method to repair relations with Iran.

I've seen women that come from Iran. Unbelievably hot.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 11, 2011)

trippled said:


> You're welcome to my home as well (-: I don't have a bike, but you could take a ride on my bogner (-:



Aww thanks man. That is very nice of you! Israel is not big. If I come down, I´ll invite you both for a drink..In your place ofcourse


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 11, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Ships are often registered in countries where their crew isn't from and have completely different home ports. It's more about taxes than politics. It isn't even just the ships, actually. Some sailors get their papers from countries other than their nationalities because they're easier to acquire or have different benefits. When I was deployed to the Persian Gulf, I was the translator for a boarding team that boarded a Syrian-flagged ("Flagged" = port of registry) vessel whose entire crew, captain and home port were Iraqi. On board, some of the sailors had Iraqi passports, but Syrian or Lebanese shipping papers. Remember that "American" ship that was taken by pirates a few years ago, the Maersk Alabama? It's actually _Danish-_flagged.
> 
> I don't have anything of worth to contribute about the Israel-Palestine issue, but I figured I'd at least try to clear up the issues about ship nationality .



You are right about that. Mavi Marmara was prior to the IHH purchase a Turkish ship. The IHH made the papers on Comoros to avoid all the problems, that will come in the future. The reason why thy got the ship so cheap is because it was bought for humanitarian activity. I dunno who would do "only" humanitarian activity with a human carrier, insted of a transport wessel. But I am sure that Erdogan knew every step and forced them to get the papers from somewhere else, to avoid problems. If it was a tax issue, they would prefer Cayman Islands or Panama etc. but Comoros is a small islamic island without any significance on earth.


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## McKay (Oct 19, 2011)

Dan said:


> I will put this as simply as possible:
> 
> You can't be both a country and a 'race' of people.
> 
> Thats all im saying on the matter. They need to choose a side and stick to it, not pull the race and religion card out every single fucking time someone talks about boundaries.



 Define 'nation-state' then.


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