# NGD - A not so merry christmas - Acacia Romulus Multiscale 8 content



## codyblast

Weellll, technically I picked it up a week ago. But I've been soooo flat out I haven't had a chance to pull out the good camera and take some real photos of this guitar. So it has been played a bit, and my house is quite dusty for some reason and a bit of that came through on the photos, but anyway: heres the story. (tl;dr, this guitar sucks)

Last October or so, after seeing pic's of the two Hades that Acacia Custom Guitars had built for Tom and Andy of Thy Art Is Murder, and after seeing endorsements from a bunch of artists (hard to remember exactly who at this point, so many have come and gone since I placed my order), I thought Acacia were the perfect company to build the custom guitars I'd been dreaming of.

So, I emailed them, and Joe replied very quickly with a detailed quote (just under $3k USD per guitar, 4.5 month build time), and loads of information on options and payment plans etc. So after confirming 90% of the specs, I saved for a number of weeks and put down the first deposit of 33% of the total quoted price of the build. I was going to pay for a second identical build to be done at the same time but with a different finish and slightly different specs, but my finances wouldn't allow it. In hindsight I am very very glad I couldn't.

The specs I originally put down were (vs what I recieved):
-Hades body shape (changed to Romulus at my request before body shape cutting had begun)
-5 pc laminate neck of Maple / Rosewood (received)
-Ebony fretboard (received)
-Neck through construction (not sure if received)
-Alder body wings (received)
-Quilt maple top (received, after they had glued a flame maple top on the first incarnation of this guitar and had to start again from scratch)
-Reverse headstock with 3/5 machine head layout (received after an additional payment to facilitate this incredibly difficult procedure)
-Trans black matte burst finish (received)
-White binding on body, neck, and headstock (later changed to sanded 'natural' binding at my request, I wanted maple neck binding to match but the guitar had already been fretted and I said not to worry about it)
-Luminlay side dots (recieved plain white)
-Luminlay 'A' inlay (recieved plain white)
-Angled Lundgren M8 bridge pickup (after some difficulty with Acacia saying wether or not this was possible, I requested and received an angled BKP Painkiller)
-Angled single coil neck pickup (never happened, I think I at one stage may have just told them not to worry about it)
-27.5" - 25.5" multiscale (received)
-Angled nut (received, but only because I saw they were cutting a straight nut in a progress picture and brought it up)
-ABS bridges (received)
-Planet waves Trim-Lok machine heads (received)
-Originally the only controls were going to be a toggle switch on the side of the guitar somewhere, but due to no neck pickup ever happening it just ended up with no controls, which is fine. I didn't want a volume knob or a tone knob.

There was a HUGE amount of back an forth during the 11 month build time (quoted 4.5, lol)
The majority of this was me sending emails every few weeks to ask for updates, I am quite sure that for the first 2-3 months after my deposit that the build had not even started at all. At about 7 or 8 months or so into the build, I asked for a refund as the amount of direction that I felt had to be given on my end to ensure the guitar was sticking to its original specs, vs the amount I was paying in total, coupled with a LOT of negative reviews from other customers, I thought I was just heading into a nightmare. By this time Joe had left the company, and I was emailing Scott (the 'luthier') directly. I was denied a refund because they 'didnt have the money', and instead I was told to not worry about the last payment on the guitar (I had paid 66% by this point). All I had to pay for was shipping and the guitar would be completed, my response was that I didn't mind how long the build took now as all I was interested in was quality workmanship and not a rushed job.

And boy, even after a year, what I got definately seems like a rushed job.
Aside from the specs not being what I ordered (bearing in mind some things had changed after emails back and forth, often not due to me wanting different specs but Acacia having issues and me just going don't worry about it if its really that hard, but also some things just flat out aren't what I ordered.)

FRETWORK / SETUP:
Out of the box, the guitar was COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE. The neck is too close to the body, which on its own is not an issue but this means that with the ABM bridges completely lowered all the way, the strings are still a good 4-5mm off the fretboard. I like low action, and in order to get this I've had to start filing metal off the bottom of the saddles in order to get the action to a somewhat playable level. The fretwork is an absolute piss-take, there are frets that aren't all the way in, the ends are sharp and in some areas actually painful to play on. Partially dead frets everywhere, even with bottomed out but still high action, with the saddles filed/lowered to a somewhat decent ballpark (3-4 mm from fretboard), the partially dead frets turn into mute frets, and other frets just sound the note of the next fret up. I'd like to stress that this is not due to my filing of the saddles, you can actually slide paper and in some areas a guitar pick in between the fret and the fretboard. There is fret glue all over the fretboard, and this alone renders the guitar useless and worthless. The neck doesn't look too bad, it has a nice amount of relief, but its got a strange curve to the relief that doesn't exactly give me confidence. It's hard to see in these pictures exactly how bad it is, but it is still apparent. The twelfth fret is completely bung.


























FINISH:
The paint looks beautiful from afar.
Here's how it looks from a distance, very very pretty. You can't even tell that the guitar is a total mess.

















But when you get up close, theres crap spots everywhere and the entire top of the guitar has this weird spot blemish in the paint. 





The dot side of the fretboard between frets 17-24 looks atrocious





and the other side has some weird filler ish stuff going on.





THE WTF's:
No controls but a giant control panel on the back (which has been routed like shit).





The nut is too shallow, not enough to keep the strings in it, hence the non-ordered string tree appearing behind the nut (which also hides the straight end of the fretboard to headstock cap).




The string tree has been filed (not by me) to have grooves that under extreme tension, hold the strings into the nut. Too bad the nut's string spacing is effed anyway. And the high B string is rubbing against the string tree mounting screw.





The truss rod cover combined with the string tree actually clamps the strings, creating all kinds of tuning dramas. I intend to remove it because of this and also because it has the Acacia logo on it, which now makes me see red.

This is what happens when the string tree is backed off a bit (it has to be down so far the strings are clamped either on the truss rod cover or the wood itself)









The bridges aren't straight. Its hard to see in this photo, but they aren't perpendicular, some of them touch and others are spaced apart, all are wonky. Also, the low F# strings brass saddle couldn't actually fit the string, so I've had to file it out. The filing on the high E is to attempt to lower action, and the rounding of the edges is because these saddles are sharp as hell and I'm in the process of rounding them all off the make palm muting not hurt like a bitch. (I apologise for all the dust on this)





Im not sure WHEN they did the sanding for the binding (I thought it would be more logical to just tape it off when staining? As to avoid a rough feel), but it feels very rough and as such makes me thing it was done after the clear coat and sealer. There is quite a bit of discolouration happening, I think because the wood is exposed.





how many neck-throughs have humpy neck 'joints' in them like this? And why make the hump solid black? I suspect it may actually be a set neck, but unless I sand it down I'm not gonna know.





THE GOOD:
The bareknuckle painkiller sounds reaaaaaaaaaaallly nice. Exactly what I wanted. And the Planet Waves machine heads are nice and smooth and the trimming feature is so cool. That's it.

DO NOT GIVE ACACIA YOUR MONEY, AS THEY TAKE FOREVER JUST TO BUILD CRAP GUITARS AND WILL RUIN YOUR CHRISTMAS.

I strongly suggest everyone that has a build in progress to just bail, and try to get your money back, and flat out refuse to give them another CENT. They've had a bunch of endorsee's bail, and everyone I've talked to in Aus who has played their guitars has said they are firewood. And I agree. Even if this company DOES put out half decent guitar occasionally, we've all seen a bunch of crap come out from the shop and honestly its not about what they get right, its about how MUCH they get utterly WRONG.

I'm planning on taking this guitar to Perry Ormsby, definately for a new nut, a full refret, a setup, and then after paying Ormsby I'm gonna bill Acacia for the repair costs as it is a brand new guitar. Also considering getting Perry to shave the 'A' section off the headstock, to remove any identifiable branding so if anyone sees me playing the repaired version of this guitar live, I don't want anyone to consider buying an Acacia for even one second. I mean the basics are okay, as in he glued the wood together alright, but every other aspect of this guitar is just a parody of an instrument. And I'll only be playing it until I save and pay for and receive a finished Ormsby custom, since every guitar I've seen him make has been an absolute perfected work of art. Honestly, after giving $2k to Acacia (discounted from $3k), $500 on shipping, and $400 import tax / fedex charges, and receiving a piece of absolute crap.... $4k+ for a perfect Ormsby built in my home town honestly doesn't seem that expensive anymore.

I'm not angry. I'm just very, very disappointed.


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## Veritech Zero

Dang, that makes me sad, no idea who Acacia even is... But now I know what not to ever get. The guitar looks like it might have potential, hopefully the guy you take it to can work his magic. Not a whole lot of guitars can't be salvaged and it looks like that one might clean up alright. Best of luck to you!


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## jeleopard

Aw dude, I just cringed so hard.

Hope you can get her fixed or something!


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## DavidLopezJr

The whole Black Friday ordeal scared me about this. Sorry this happened to you man  Stuff like this kills me to read. 

DO NOT GIVE ACACIA ANY MONEY AND DEMAND YOUR MONEY IF YOU CURRENTLY HAVE A SPOT OR BUILD WITH THEM.


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## Hollowway

Holy crap, man, that sucks! I'm sure Perry will be able to make it better, but unfortunately some of that stuff is so screwed up he's probably going to have to almost tear it down and rebuild it. That's just embarrassing for Acacia. Did their luthier really build that? I would certainly hope he's got some high school kid in there helping out, and had him do a lot of that, because I just can't imagine someone could make such huge mistakes. Like that nut, all that glue on the side of the FB, etc. And I am also super suspicious of that heel. Something is going on there.


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## jwade

Jesus, that's pretty brutal.


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## oneblackened

Holy shit, man. 

They have to at LEAST foot the bill for repairs if not give you a refund. Some of that shit literally is not fixable.


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## Hollowway

DavidLopezJr said:


> The whole Black Friday ordeal scared me about this. Sorry this happened to you man  Stuff like this kills me to read.
> 
> DO NOT GIVE ACACIA ANY MONEY AND DEMAND YOUR MONEY IF YOU CURRENTLY HAVE A SPOT OR BUILD WITH THEM.



What happened with the Black Friday run? Did people not get them? I don't remember seeing anything about that.


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## DavidLopezJr

Hollowway said:


> What happened with the Black Friday run? Did people not get them? I don't remember seeing anything about that.


http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...-custom-guitars-hades-6-black-friday-run.html

Also the typical horrible communication and way behind on estimate for completion. I haven't kept up with the BFR builds but I'm sure those in them can inform us.


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## capoeiraesp

Jeez.... I'm lost for words. 
I definitely don't feel bad at all now for pulling apart some people's NGDs for Acacia. 

I've sent this link to Perry on your behalf.

Edit: that smashed fret takes the cake.
Edit 2: it's pretty sad that the only good things were the pickup and tuners.


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## ormsby guitars

I no longer do repair work. But I'll make an exception and will help you sort this out. 

Issues like this give every luthier a bad name. 

0410 540 327


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## oneblackened

^Perry, doing things right.


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## Hollowway

DavidLopezJr said:


> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/st...-custom-guitars-hades-6-black-friday-run.html
> 
> Also the typical horrible communication and way behind on estimate for completion. I haven't kept up with the BFR builds but I'm sure those in them can inform us.



Holy beans, I missed that! That's some piss poor woodworking right there. I'm beginning to think I should start building guitars. I'm seeing some "professional" stuff I think I could pull off on my own.


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## MikeyLawless

That is utterly pathetic and inexcuseable. Wow. Life lesson: dont skimp on customs because of price.


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## combustion

well, there's one company I'll never order from


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## JoshuaVonFlash

DavidLopezJr said:


> The whole Black Friday ordeal scared me about this.


Seems like these Black Friday custom shop guitars, almost always end up in a train wreck. Lutheirs need to know how much they can work they can cover instead of accepting money and allowing their reputation to dip as result of being congested with too many orders. In that kind of business reputation is everything and I hope you just got a lemon because, if more turn out like this, their's won't be in good graces.


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## neurosis

At first, going through the thread I could´t really appreciate the damage but then the pictures with the string holder and nut came and then the spacing on the bridge saddles and then the binding and then the paint job overall

I think you should´t be tolerant with this at all man. Not at the price you have paid. We could speculate about all sorts of scenarios of what is going on with that company but the fact is that you paid a business money on reliance of what you were going to get and you didn´t get anything like it.

I ignore what measures you can take to get this solved but the ideal would be to get the money back and pay for the new thing you want. If you have to return this guitar then so be it. What type of guarantee did they give you?

So sorry, man.


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## TheWarAgainstTime

Sorry to see that it ended in disaster  

I figured something was up with Acacia when I saw Within the Ruins earlier this year and not two months afterwards, they discontinued Joe's sig model and he joined up with Legator. I hadn't looked much into Acacia or any issues they'd had, so I figured shoddy neck joints/neck pockets were about the worst I would see here or in other NGD's

Hope you can get it fixed to at least a playable level or refunded!


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## jeremyb

Ohhh man, thats super disappointing


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## downburst82

yikes :/ that pretty bad! Seriously how do you let something like that go out to a customer and expect to survive as a company?? 

Ive been doing some work on a guitar my cousin built years ago as a highschool woodshop project and it is Miles ahead of this....which is really sad. When a 16 year old kid 20 years ago in highschool (who never build a guitar before) can build a better guitar that a company trying to charge people thousands...something is verrrry wrong.

Really sorry you got stuck with this mess


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## KwameDude

ahh man i saw this on FB book and thought it look so rad!
sucks to see how poorly put together it is.


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## Daf57

I really hate to see something like this! So sorry, man - I hope it gets set right!


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## Go To Bed Jessica

Wow... that's a real shame, dude. You're right though - it looks great from a distance, but what is shown in the close-ups is flat-out inexcusable. I bought a $60 kids guitar from Aldi for my daughter and it has better fretwork than that.

THANK YOU for taking the time to post a thoughtful and detailed description and photographic evidence of the issues.

Lastly, Perry is good people and I hope you can post with another review of the guitar after he is done with it. It won't be an Ormsby custom, but I'd wager it will be definitely worth playing once he has worked his magic on it.

Sorry to hear you had such a shitty experience.


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## Edika

It is so disheartening to receive an instrument in that state even though you were kind of expecting it after all the negative feedback they started having. I just hope Perry can do something to salvage that mess of a guitar. By checking the back of the guitar it seems like a set neck because there seems to be a different configuration of woods between the neck and the body. The neck clearly seems to be a three piece neck while the part that would continue in the body for the neck trough is a five piece.


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## straightshreddd

Jesus. Are the Invictus guys working for Acacia now?


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## codyblast

No worries guys.

I really feel what I paid for and expected is not even close to what I received, especially on the quality side of things.

This thread is nothing personal against Scott or Acacia. If the endorsing artists made a public statement about the lack of quality of their guitars when they got them, I wouldn't have gone with this company. I'm just trying to prevent other people from finding themselves in the same situation I am currently in. I know Tom and Andy both sold their guitars, Josh from Northlane said that the Structures tele's were 'firewood', and I've seen some pretty bad things from normal customers. Problem is, this all happened AFTER I had placed my order and put down my deposit.

The guitar is really quite good looking from a distance, unfortunately I want a musical instrument not an ornament. Perry, you are an absolute legend mate, I was unaware that you'd stopped repairs but thank you very much for this exception.

I need some help deciding exactly what to do here though; do I ask Acacia for a refund, if so is it reasonable for me to keep the guitar and get it fixed with my own money, or do I just get it fixed and cross my fingers that Acacia will foot the bill?

Obviously best case scenario for me is full refund (excluding shipping and import tax), and keep the guitar, but I'm not sure if thats morally right. I'd rather not return it because I think it is salvageable, but I'd also rather not pay for repairs out of my own pocket (which I'm probably going to do anyway), and resort to wishful thinking that Acacia will send me renumeration for the cost of repairs.

My main concern here is that either a/ Acacia really take a good look at themselves, somehow apologise and make good on every bit of bad quality they have ever given out to any customer, b/ if Acacia refuse to do so, that people have the knowledge of what to expect if they decide to spend money with this company.


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## Nag

I wanna say, thank you for the review. It's sad that this order turned out to be a turd, but it's awesome of you to have taken the time to inform people with pictures and all. I've seen so many companies get a good reputation on this site and then turn out to be nightmare stuff... it's good to point them out.

I feel really sorry for your christmas though 

As for what you should do now, you said you already asked Acacia for a refund back when your build was still in the works. They didn't have money then so they won't have any now (given that everyone pretty much turned away from them). And even if they have it, they likely won't want to give you anything... I'd say still try to get a refund but I doubt that you'll get anything. And if they don't give you a refund, take it to Ormsby. I'd say that's the best plan.


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## Fred the Shred

Sigh... I had hoped stuff might have got on the right track, but alas. Sorry to know of your predicament, man.


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## jemfloral

ormsby guitars said:


> I no longer do repair work. But I'll make an exception and will help you sort this out.
> 
> Issues like this give every luthier a bad name.
> 
> 0410 540 327



class


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## Rev2010

I literally saw those pics and said outloud, "WHAT.... THE.... FUUUUUCK!!!???". So sad to see you have to go through this.


Rev.


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## ihunda

Damn... I feel for you... good luck getting the builder to man up and pay for cost of repair...


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## trayenshreds

Dude I can't believe how terrible of a situation that is. Nobody ordering a custom shop guitar should have to deal with what you did. I don't know how you can remain so calm about the situation, I'm the type of guy who would be right on the phone with them 24/7 until they took the guitar back, gave me a full refund, or gave me a complete replacement of the product ordered. What were the sale terms of agreement on the guitar? Do you have your receipts.. a warranty... copies of your conversations? A copy of the quote initially stating your expected timeframe and payment? You could easily legally prove that they did not offer you the services quoted. Man, thats just so sucky. I'd really get on the phone and beat doors down at their shop until they MAKE this situation right for YOU (think Ari Gold in the show Entourage). They should know well enough that people will go and discuss these things on forums, and it will burn their reputation to the ground. I feel for you bro. Hope you can get this situation resolved man!


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## ridner

this sucks - I hate seeing posts about janky builds/companies. 

I would definitely contact them about a refund/reimbursement for the needed repairs. I would suggest doing so before you do anything to the guitar/pay out of pocket. If you make changes/adjustments, you might void any type of refund because the guitar is not as it was when you received it. I don't know this for a fact, but better safe than sorry in my opinion. I hope this gets panned out in your favor - good luck!


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## Negav

You gotta give it to them though. If you squint your eyes hard enough it's perfect. 
/jk

But really man, can't you return it for your money? That is outrageous.


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## capoeiraesp

codyblast said:


> No worries guys.
> 
> I really feel what I paid for and expected is not even close to what I received, especially on the quality side of things.
> 
> ...
> 
> I need some help deciding exactly what to do here though; do I ask Acacia for a refund, if so is it reasonable for me to keep the guitar and get it fixed with my own money, or do I just get it fixed and cross my fingers that Acacia will foot the bill?
> 
> Obviously best case scenario for me is full refund (excluding shipping and import tax), and keep the guitar, but I'm not sure if thats morally right. I'd rather not return it because I think it is salvageable, but I'd also rather not pay for repairs out of my own pocket (which I'm probably going to do anyway), and resort to wishful thinking that Acacia will send me renumeration for the cost of repairs.
> 
> My main concern here is that either a/ Acacia really take a good look at themselves, somehow apologise and make good on every bit of bad quality they have ever given out to any customer, b/ if Acacia refuse to do so, that people have the knowledge of what to expect if they decide to spend money with this company.




I think you'll have to make a judgement once Perry has assessed the condition of the guitar i.e. just how repairable it is and whether or not it will be a playable instrument with no dead frets etc.


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## shawnperolis

Wow, that is horrible... It's hard to imagine dumping 4k into an instrument, waiting a year, and getting what basically amounts to a cheap Wal-Mart guitar. That sucks, I hope it all works out in the end.


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## ikarus

I feel for you, dude. I had a similar experience, although it was not as bad as this. 

i hope you get your money back.


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## cwhitey2

Dude that sucks!!! 




ormsby guitars said:


> I no longer do repair work. But I'll make an exception and will help you sort this out.
> 
> Issues like this give every luthier a bad name.
> 
> 0410 540 327



Classy


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## xzyryabx

First of all, so sorry this ruined your christmas man, but I've said this before in one of these horror threads and I'll say it again.
You paid good money, 3K +, expecting a top-of-the-line instrument, and you got a turd. No matter how much you polish a turd, it will always be a turd.
If this is is the quality of work that went into the outside, imagine the quality of of the wood that is under the hood. 
Dunno, it's up to you ultimately, but if this were me I would fight tooth and nail for a full refund (inlcuding import and shipping fees which you have so easily already given up on). 
I'm always shocked by the fanboys on this forum and what they will put up with. 
Makes me want to set up a guitar company, give a few to the flavor-of-the-month bands to hold in a music video or photoshoot, hire a third-rate luthier, announce a black-friday sale, and sit back and count my money.


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## luca9583

That's simply not acceptable.

Get the guitar inspected and get a quote for repairs, but don't do anything to the guitar at all. Contact Acacia and ask them to cover the full repair costs you have been quoted, and if they offer to "repair" the guitar themselves i would politely say no. If they don't agree to pay up you could consider a small claims court. 

Also, (and i'm sure you've already done so) make sure you check the Acacia terms and conditions thoroughly before you do anything:

http://acaciaguitars.com/termsandconditions/


I had a similar experience with a luthier and he agreed to pay for all the setup work that was needed to make the guitar playable.


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## Hollowway

In my experience most luthiers will not pay someone else to do any work, because it will cost them way more than doing it themselves. But in this case, given the shipping costs, they might go for it.


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## beneharris

That sucks this happened, man. I hate seeing these.

I don't know if you'd have any luck in court; technically he provided the guitar. I don't expect they are going to debate quality, although, I may be wrong. I'd just do some research before threatening them with that. 

Hope it works out okay!


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## chris9

Or man so sorry that really sucks i hate reading bad new guitar days
Hope you get it sorted out.


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## Force

I'd say it's too late as you've already taken to the guitar with a file, they'll just claim it's messed up due to what you've done.

In any case, it's despicable what these wankers have done, really feeling for you. It's bad enough getting issues on a cheap guitar, let alone one that pricey.


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## AVH

Wow, I'm so sorry to see you got shafted like that...that is some kind of awful work there and I unfortunately see shit like this so often by newer, small builders that it's almost an epidemic in the last 5-7 years. And not to rub anymore, but it's plainly clear that it's a set neck and not a neck-through - the neck is a 3pc and the body is a 5pc...and looks awkward as hell, along with the other things. What a mess, good luck, I'm sure Perry will fix you up.


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## Ben.Last

Eek.

Man, that's baaaaad. Even though my iceman from them ended up being worth the amount I paid (which was a lot less than you paid for this, since my build was rather basic), there was still some slight instances of the same types of problems with it.

For what it's worth, I had zero issues working with Scott to correct the issues that I did have with my guitar. I hope you get things worked out in some way.


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## Riffer Madness

Sorry to see that. Thats the kinda flaws id consider unacceptable even on a $300 guitar.

They should refund every penny you spent and give you a big discount [like 50% off] if you ever decide to buy from them again.

Thanks for posting this. I'll never be ordering anything from that company.

This pisses me off.

How could someone not notice all that before shipping it out?

Maybe some disgruntled employee was trying to wreck their reputation?


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## RevelGTR

A refund is not likely, unfortunately. Acacia must be down for the count, I would think.


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## Sponge

codyblast said:


> No worries guys.
> 
> I really feel what I paid for and expected is not even close to what I received, especially on the quality side of things.
> 
> This thread is nothing personal against Scott or Acacia. If the endorsing artists made a public statement about the lack of quality of their guitars when they got them, I wouldn't have gone with this company. I'm just trying to prevent other people from finding themselves in the same situation I am currently in. I know Tom and Andy both sold their guitars, Josh from Northlane said that the Structures tele's were 'firewood', and I've seen some pretty bad things from normal customers. Problem is, this all happened AFTER I had placed my order and put down my deposit.
> 
> The guitar is really quite good looking from a distance, unfortunately I want a musical instrument not an ornament. Perry, you are an absolute legend mate, I was unaware that you'd stopped repairs but thank you very much for this exception.
> 
> I need some help deciding exactly what to do here though; do I ask Acacia for a refund, if so is it reasonable for me to keep the guitar and get it fixed with my own money, or do I just get it fixed and cross my fingers that Acacia will foot the bill?
> 
> Obviously best case scenario for me is full refund (excluding shipping and import tax), and keep the guitar, but I'm not sure if thats morally right. I'd rather not return it because I think it is salvageable, but I'd also rather not pay for repairs out of my own pocket (which I'm probably going to do anyway), and resort to wishful thinking that Acacia will send me renumeration for the cost of repairs.
> 
> My main concern here is that either a/ Acacia really take a good look at themselves, somehow apologise and make good on every bit of bad quality they have ever given out to any customer, b/ if Acacia refuse to do so, that people have the knowledge of what to expect if they decide to spend money with this company.



I had a situation where a company, well known to sevenstring.org, had sent me a lemon. It was the second build because the first was an error. They offered to build me another and refused to refund. 

I posted the situation on here and over 100 replies and 3,000 views later, the company man called me the next morning and offered a full refund and asked that I remove the thread. 

You certainly have every right to ask for a refund. If they refuse, put up a fight. Word of mouth goes a very long way, and especially in our community. 

The posters here had my back and I can only do the same, if you choose to go with a refund. If you do, lets get everyone to get the ball rolling!


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## Orgalmer

Yeah man I cringed pretty hard at those pics.

You should definitely go for a refund. if my Carvin rocked up like this I would be spitting chips.


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## Joshua2209

Disgusting. So sorry man, I had always been envious of their guitars but now... Man...


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## decoy205

I'd try and get a refund and get a full Ormsby build. That is messed up.


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## SoItGoesRVA

Unacceptable. It's bad enough that they wouldn't let you have a refund mid-build with all of the issues in production, but AFTER all of that bullshit they sent that abortion of an instrument out of the shop and into your hands AFTER you forked over thousands of dollars? Fvck. That. Spread this shit around, see what they do after word spreads of them letting this type of "craftsmanship" out into the public. Hope you get a refund, and props to Ormsby for being the man.


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## studmiester7

That is a terrible build job! Is there any hope in salvaging this thing without putting too much money back into it? Sorry to hear, bro!


----------



## SandyRavage

Super stoked to have found this thread as they were on a list of builders I was considering and hadn't seen any negative reviews.

Thanks for the heads up and sorry about your guitar dude.


----------



## Webmaestro

God almighty


----------



## Erockomania

There goes Acacia.


Also, I'm in awe of the cavity with no controls and the bottle of glue at the neck joint. Holy cow.


----------



## ibanez4lifesz

This is disgusting, and absolutely unacceptable for the price you paid. Squiers are held to a better quality standard&#8230;

This thread should really be linked on their Facebook page. They should not be allowed to scam anyone else when they're putting out garbage like this. I've been disappointed with luthiers for much lesser faults in the past, as I personally believe builds should be perfect (within reason) in this price range. This, however, is a whole new level of low


----------



## 77zark77

Unacceptable is the most written word in this thread and I agree.

That shitty fretboard ensues from laziness and incompetence
The nut is poorly designed
And if the neck is really a set-neck (what I'm pretty certain) , it's a swindle 

And I'm not talking about the finish flaws and the control cavity cut with a chainsaw !

I'm sorry for you


----------



## patata

> -Ebony fretboard (received)



uhm...


----------



## MF_Kitten

Man, this is so god damn unfortunate. Yet another company trying to take on way more than they can pull off. It's obvious that a lot of the stuff they've done is really sloppy and messy and disorganized. They don't have a good workflow, and probably do a lot of "oh yeah, shit, I forgot about that... Okay, how to get around this..."

I love the LOOK of their work design-wise, but what good is a gorgeous sculpture molded with poop? That's probably how they are getting orders though. Guitars that look pretty in pictures. I've made the same mistake myself, unfortunately. The irony is that of all the guitars I've bought in the past, the ones that were most worth the money I paid were Agile guitars.

I hope that thing gets some well-deserved love and care from Mr. Ormsby there, and that things work out for the better for you!


----------



## GunpointMetal

is the 11 fret in that pic tilted back towards the nut? WTF? MAn, I expect a $800 to be nearly flawless, let alone what you spend...so sorry to see this.


----------



## codyblast

patata said:


> -Ebony fretboard (received)
> 
> 
> 
> uhm...
Click to expand...


Well, yeah. I asked about it after they sent some progress pics of the fretboard wood, they said it was definitely ebony. It's the lightest ebony I've ever seen for sure, but I didn't want to call them out as straight up liars. Though this and the set neck uncertainty is a bit, well. yeah. It's really hard to know what angle to come at this whole mess from, a kneejerk response of just anger won't really get me anywhere.

I'll be contacting Ormsby (many thanks again Perry) for a repair quote and then contacting Acacia over the next week for some kind of compensation. I'll keep everyone updated on how it all goes, just in case anyone's still actually considering going with these clowns.


----------



## jephjacques

You deserve a full refund, this guitar is a piece of shit.

Mine had similar garbage fretwork when it came in- I sent it back to them to get it fixed. They fixed the fretwork but in the process put a bunch of dents in the body  It's currently a parts guitar.


----------



## ramses

jephjacques said:


> You deserve a full refund, this guitar is a piece of shit.
> 
> Mine had similar garbage fretwork when it came in- I sent it back to them to get it fixed. They fixed the fretwork but in the process put a bunch of dents in the body  It's currently a parts guitar.



Sorry to hear that. Why couldn't they get the fretboard right the very first time?

OP, thanks for being honest with your NGD. Acacia's look very beautiful, so it is no wonder they attract customers.


----------



## Ben.Last

To play devil's advocate (on the couple things that actually can have that done), most ebony isn't actually as dark as what we associate with it, and the grain on that fretboard doesn't look like rosewood. I'd also be surprised if it was set neck instead of neck through (I'm not saying it couldn't be. Who knows at this point?). It looks like the lines of the plies of wood line up with each other. I think it's much more likely that it's just a bad implementation of a through neck.


----------



## JoeGuitar717

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I am just so freaking aggravated. I'm sure some of you have read this thread when I left :

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/me...-hey-guys-joe-ex-acacia-guitars-employee.html - under my old username that I had the Mods delete so I can reopen my current one.

This is completely unacceptable, and I am so sorry that you had to deal with this. I am by no means apologizing for them, but apologizing because I felt as if I was jumping off a sinking ship back in February, and should of spoke up more about what I saw coming since I controlled their Social Media/Forum/Sales updates.

Being at NAMM with them last year was a real eye opener, and while I do like Scott and the other guys as people, this shit has been happening for awhile and is really freaking ridiculous at this point.


----------



## ERGonomic

If I got that guitar for christmas, I would also think it wasn't so merry indeed. Call the CC and chargeback. .... those ....s.


----------



## capoeiraesp

jephjacques said:


> You deserve a full refund, this guitar is a piece of shit.
> 
> Mine had similar garbage fretwork when it came in- I sent it back to them to get it fixed. They fixed the fretwork but in the process put a bunch of dents in the body  It's currently a parts guitar.



Have you got pics you can share of these issues?

Edit for more dodgy stuff:

Left side of neck pocket






Terrible neck pocket and dodgy neck pickup route.


----------



## capoeiraesp

Hey Cody, any word from Acacia?


----------



## jephjacques

capoeiraesp said:


> Have you got pics you can share of these issues?



http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/229307-ngd-acacia-carved-top-cronus.html


----------



## will_shred

Damn that's a shame. I saw the Acacia build thread and a lot of their stuff looked really nice, they had a lot of really killer woods and the guitars looked great from the angles they were shot at. However if we've learned anything it seems like "Small company handing out endorsements to anyone who will play them" seems to be a sign that the company is trying to make up for pushing a shitty product.


----------



## will_shred

JoeGuitar717 said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I am just so freaking aggravated. I'm sure some of you have read this thread when I left :
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/me...-hey-guys-joe-ex-acacia-guitars-employee.html - under my old username that I had the Mods delete so I can reopen my current one.
> 
> This is completely unacceptable, and I am so sorry that you had to deal with this. I am by no means apologizing for them, but apologizing because I felt as if I was jumping off a sinking ship back in February, and should of spoke up more about what I saw coming since I controlled their Social Media/Forum/Sales updates.
> 
> Being at NAMM with them last year was a real eye opener, and while I do like Scott and the other guys as people, this shit has been happening for awhile and is really freaking ridiculous at this point.




Mind elaborating? OF course it's reasonable if you just want to leave it at that, however I'm curious to know kind of where things started to go wrong?


----------



## noUser01

Sponge said:


> I had a situation where a company, well known to sevenstring.org, had sent me a lemon. It was the second build because the first was an error. They offered to build me another and refused to refund.
> 
> I posted the situation on here and over 100 replies and 3,000 views later, the company man called me the next morning and offered a full refund and asked that I remove the thread.
> 
> You certainly have every right to ask for a refund. If they refuse, put up a fight. Word of mouth goes a very long way, and especially in our community.
> 
> The posters here had my back and I can only do the same, if you choose to go with a refund. If you do, lets get everyone to get the ball rolling!



I certainly hope you did not remove that thread. As great as it is that you (and the reaction here) got him to change his mind, it still happened and should be documented. Building one guy one really nice guitar in order to erase one really bad guitar doesn't mean he won't continue to make terrible instruments afterwards.

If this does happen to anyone, start a new thread or post a reply in your old thread and talk about the luthier/company and what they did to help fix the problem and patch things up with you. Don't erase the errors that they've made by deleting the thread with the bad experience.

Just my two cents...

Anyways, I'm really sorry this happened to (both of) you, this is completely unacceptable. If I don't have these issues on a $400 RG8, you shouldn't have these issues on a 1k-3k dollar guitar.


----------



## capoeiraesp

luca9583 said:


> That's simply not acceptable.
> 
> Get the guitar inspected and get a quote for repairs, but don't do anything to the guitar at all. Contact Acacia and ask them to cover the full repair costs you have been quoted, and if they offer to "repair" the guitar themselves i would politely say no. If they don't agree to pay up you could consider a small claims court.
> 
> Also, (and i'm sure you've already done so) make sure you check the Acacia terms and conditions thoroughly before you do anything:
> 
> Terms and Conditions | ACACIA GUITARS
> 
> 
> I had a similar experience with a luthier and he agreed to pay for all the setup work that was needed to make the guitar playable.




Just had a read through their terms and conditions. This paragraph below cracked me up. 

"During the build, we photograph and publish the progress through various social media sites. We strongly advise our clients to follow these photos closely, as _this is one way in which we guarantee perfection._ Because even the smallest change can make a great instrument the perfect instrument, we welcome comments throughout the build."


----------



## straightshreddd

capoeiraesp said:


> Just had a read through their terms and conditions. This paragraph below cracked me up.
> 
> "During the build, we photograph and publish the progress through various social media sites. We strongly advise our clients to follow these photos closely, as _this is one way in which we guarantee perfection._ Because even the smallest change can make a great instrument the perfect instrument, we welcome comments throughout the build."



Goddamn.


----------



## oniduder

duder that sucks hard, i'm so sorry for this happening to you

if it were me i'd get a full refund, or try, i don't know if that is even possible, and get an Ormsby or an ONI, because both are in your neck of the words or closer than acacia, 

if i received some shite like that i'd really be tempted to burn it, or just try to get moneys back, that is so unacceptable it's ridiculous

 is really nuff said

good luck! i hope they or ormsby do right by you


----------



## petervindel

I was planning on having them build me one of their 8-string Icemans in 2014, so I´m REALLY glad I read this first!


----------



## Zado

It's uttery disappointing to see how many luthiers seem to be unable to build a custom instrument on par with a 3-4 times cheaper korean made one lately.This is essentially why I will always buy my guitars from well known companies,or in case from luthiers I personally know and trust.
Damn,my schecter might not be made of exotic woods,and sure as hell is not super fancy or super exclusive,but the fretwork is impeccable and there are no finish flaws at all.

Worst thing is not only a Christmas ruined for the poor OP,but also tons of doubts towards other luthiers,even professional ones, that might come to everyones mind now


----------



## Altar

Hollowway said:


> I would certainly hope he's got some high school kid in there helping out, and had him do a lot of that, because I just can't imagine someone could make such huge mistakes.



I happen to be a 15 year old guitar tech... Let's hope Acacia doesn't ruin my reputation too.


----------



## Danukenator

Dude, I'm so sorry you had to deal with this bullshit. Nothing worse then getting burned on a custom. However, thank you so much for posting a no-BS NGD instead of trying to sneak out from under the build. It helps keep everyone honest!


----------



## JamesM




----------



## canuck brian

That guitar should have been rebuilt in at least 5 different stages from what I can see. The fretboard being slammed to the body is just stupid. Unless you're recessing your bridge(s), good luck on getting decent action with almost any bridge on the market. 

If you're building a guitar and you .... it up, you rebuild it. Period. This shouldn't even be up for debate or questioned. You sure as hell don't make a half assed attempt to ship the customer a guitar like this. 

You could cut a recess for a bridge plate to mount the ABM's to and get them lower in an effort to get the the action lower. You shouldn't have to do this at all, but it's a possible solution.

I had a couple of frets in one of my customers guitars lift out in transit - the cutters i used for the slots were too wide for the frets to have a solid catch, so i covered a complete re-fret for the guy. 

Hats off to Perry for trying to help OP out and get this guitar into a useable condition.


----------



## Aris_T

I can't think of anything more appropriate than unacceptable. The fact that you ordered a neck-through and received (as it seems) a set neck, freaked me out the most.

Really hope that Ormsby turns this into a guitar that you can actually play!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Seeing companies build guitars like this really annoys me. After seeing what happened to Invictus and how one thread/article can destroy a luthiers rep it amazes me how guitars like this are let out to the public when they should be thrown in a fire.

If it was me I'd demand a refund since you didn't get the specs you payed for. The company is going to go under in 2014 if they keep this up.

Ormsby will be able to sort out a lot of the problems. The Saddles can be recessed, freeboard refretted, Not sure about the string tree and tuners messing everything up though.


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

Threads/Articles don't destroy luthier's 

Their terrible work does!

It is nice that a thread can hasten the collapse before more people get ....ed, but really they killed themselves by letting garbage out the door.

Seriously, they could have removed the hardware and scrapped the guitar and started over. Maybe lose $50 in material (wood) as well as the time spent making this POS. Maybe give the employee a good slap and start over.

Losing some profit on a rebuild could have saved this company. Instead they risk losing everything because they don't want to satisfy ONE customer.



capoeiraesp said:


> "During the build, we photograph and publish the progress through various social media sites. We strongly advise our clients to follow these photos closely, as _this is one way in which we guarantee perfection._ Because even the smallest change can make a great instrument the perfect instrument, we welcome comments throughout the build."



Strongly Advise!
If YOU don't catch our ....ups while we make them you will not receive a playable instrument.
Liability is on you, the customer, to provide quality control.




OP: let me know if you're interested in selling this POS. I'm interested in making this workable if you don't want to have anything more to do with it.
Send me a PM.


----------



## simonXsludge

Man, this is terrible. Such a bad joke of a guitar, I truly feel sorry for the OP, who clearly hasn't received what he payed for. A refund would be the only fair solution here, IMHO.


----------



## drmosh

ouch  that nut is roter level, the rest is even worse


----------



## drmosh

capoeiraesp said:


> Just had a read through their terms and conditions. This paragraph below cracked me up.
> 
> "During the build, we photograph and publish the progress through various social media sites. We strongly advise our clients to follow these photos closely, as _this is one way in which we guarantee perfection._ Because even the smallest change can make a great instrument the perfect instrument, we welcome comments throughout the build."



utter joke!!!!


----------



## Guamskyy

Real shame on your guitar man. I got my guitar from Acacia when he was still fairly new, I was quote number 45, so I believe it was only Scott and probably another guy working under him that built my guitar. Now that there popularity has skyrocketed (in both good and bad now), he has probably recruited more people, thus quality probably slipping through the cracks.

If you read my NGD for my Acacia guitar http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/233412-ngd-mirrored-8-string-56k-start-your-engines.html, I had some finish issues as well and pickup mounting issues, but that was pretty much it.

I really hope you can get this resolved. My experience was great with Scott, hell I even met him when I went over to his area because I had some relatives that actually lived close by; a real nice dude. Unfortunately that is not an exception to what this potentially badass guitar could have been= a badass guitar.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Jesus Christ, that's the kind of thing you don't even expect in a $200 guitar, let alone a $2k+ custom guitar. I hope it works out for you, as that's not a small amount of money to have dumped into that abortion of an instrument. It really is sad that somebody thought it'd be okay to charge that much hard earned cash and then make this thing.

For what it's worth, it looks nice, and once it's made playable it should (hopefully) be a pretty sweet axe. Props to Ormsby if they can get this thing in working order. (hell, props for even just being willing to attempt fixing what some schmuck ruined.) I definitely think de-badgeing is a great idea. Seriously, I wouldn't want to be seen repping a shit company.


----------



## decreebass

Thanks for this post - please do follow up if they make it right.


----------



## RedDog22

seems like once companies get the artist endorsement/s, order volume goes up, quality suffers, and delays/back-ups begin. Saw these issues on another custom build thread a few weeks ago. Very enlightening. Shame you had to not only wait all year, pay the import & taxes only to recieve an unplayable axe. That shallow nut & string hold-down bar makes me want to  if it was not asked for by you.

Anyway, hope you can get it sorted out & keep us updated.


----------



## codyblast

I originally ordered an angled nut. They sent a progress picture with a zero fret and straight nut like on the all wenge hades multiscale they had recently built, I pointed out that I didn't order than and in attempt to salvage the situation, asked for an angled strat style nut to be placed behind the zero fret. I sent a picture of a skervesen build as reference. The picture had a string tree in it, so while I didn't explicitly order it I can see why it went there. 
Funnily enough though, the string tree wasn't present on any of the photos until the very very last batch before sending it out. Seems to me like the first time they tuned the guitar up, they realised the strings pop out of the nut and rather than build a new nut, they just wacked a string tree on there to sort it out. A new nut is still required anyway as the string spacing is very uneven.

I emailed acacia a big list of every flaw I could find, mentioned they were all covered by their terms and conditions. An un named employee said that a refund is 'the best thing to do' or something like that, and said he would talk to Scott about it. Just waiting on the details of the refund now. I'm hoping for full refund on the guitar + original shipping and for them to pay for the shipping back to USA. Initial import fees being refunded would be nice as well but I don't think they are really liable for those.


----------



## MaCkCiTy

I'm sure you would be able to get tax back, surely it would be the same as a duty free refund or something! Can't pay goods and services tax on something that didn't happen!


----------



## ormsby guitars

RedDog22 said:


> seems like once companies get the artist endorsement/s, order volume goes up, quality suffers, and delays/back-ups begin.



The exact reason I refused all endorsement offers from anyone in the first 7 years of business. And that included some 'OMFG they are a household name!' players. I've only given away one instrument and that was the RR Bass. All other endorsers get a discount but they still have to pay... and wait. 

Business growth needs to be carefully planned. It needs to be sustainable. It needs to be organic. It needs to match your mindset and personal growth abilities. You need susyems in place that are proven. You need consistancy and repeatability. Too quick and it runs away from you. If it runs away from you, you're screwed.


----------



## mcd

Zado said:


> Damn,my schecter might not be made of exotic woods,and sure as hell is not super fancy or super exclusive,but the fretwork is impeccable and there are no finish flaws at all.



Not only is it probably very solid, if it's not they will give you a new one! More importantly after the problem is half fixed they sell it as B-stock.....I have had about 30 Bstock LTD's in my day.....SAVINGS!!!!!


----------



## MF_Kitten

drmosh said:


> ouch  that nut is roter level, the rest is even worse



whoah, whoah, let's not stretch it that far! My Roter's nut would only slip on the lowest string... This shit is worse!


----------



## capoeiraesp

6000+ views for this thread. I don't think this abomination will be forgotten anytime soon.


----------



## vansinn

It's almost laughable, because most of those errors could fairly easily have been avoided; it's simply a lack of care in the manufacturing.

Outside the scope of this is the chosen lower quality of bridge/saddles, and I'm not sure about what's been going on with the paint-taint.

Seems to me like fixable - with due financial penalties, of course..
Why any builder would risk such stuff added to the resume is beyond my capacity


----------



## fwd0120

Hope this gets resolved!


----------



## MetalDaze

Do these guys not realize how easy it is to show how poor the work is to the whole world? If I was building guitars, I would be paranoid to ship anything not perfect, knowing it will end up on a website somewhere.


----------



## MaCkCiTy

capoeiraesp said:


> 6000+ views for this thread. I don't think this abomination will be forgotten anytime soon.



6000 views by the same 20 guys! 

I asked my Retail Supervisor friend about the tax thing. She rattled some crap from the ACCC (_Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) _and something about the taxation department. I didn't really get the specifics, but she said from her understanding, you'd get your tax money back.


----------



## minorseventh

MaCkCiTy said:


> 6000 views by the same 20 guys!



make it 21.

I had emailed Acacia back and forth not long ago, and was planning on having something built. Luckily the holidays came and sucked all my money, but I was wanting to plop down a deposit now that they're over. Glad I read this thread now. I will find another company.
My condolences to the OP.


----------



## poopyalligator

Oh man I am sorry. I am glad I pulled out of my build.


----------



## satchmo72

ormsby guitars said:


> Business growth needs to be carefully planned. It needs to be sustainable. It needs to be organic. It needs to match your mindset and personal growth abilities. You need susyems in place that are proven. You need consistancy and repeatability. Too quick and it runs away from you. If it runs away from you, you're screwed.



THIS!!!!!!!!!! Just because someone worked as a Luthier (or whatever) does not mean they are capable of doing it on their own. Many go out with no mindset whatsoever, just that they are not going to work for the "man" anymore. 

Custom guitar work seems to be mired in scheduling issues. I waited a year or two to get some things done, luckily mine came out to be one of the best swirls I have ever seen but others aren't so lucky. I won't do it again. 

I hope they make this right with ya OP.


----------



## capoeiraesp

MaCkCiTy said:


> 6000 views by the same 20 guys!
> 
> I asked my Retail Supervisor friend about the tax thing. She rattled some crap from the ACCC (_Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) _and something about the taxation department. I didn't really get the specifics, but she said from her understanding, you'd get your tax money back.



100+ likes for Ormsby's post would suggest otherwise. 

I think if the OP/owner of Acacia abomination has a receipt for full purchase price and shipping he can claim that back upon shipping it out of the country. I claimed back 10% on around $3k worth of gear that was going to family overseas when passing through Sydney airport.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

MetalDaze said:


> Do these guys not realize how easy it is to show how poor the work is to the whole world? If I was building guitars, I would be paranoid to ship anything not perfect, knowing it will end up on a website somewhere.



I think a lot of companies are blind to how destructive the internet can be for your business. Anyone who has looks at this thread is going to ad Acacia to their black list of guitar manufacturers. I seriously wonder what they think when they are packing a guitar like this into its case. They either think the customer won't notice or are deluded enough to think its a well made guitar.


----------



## Ketzer

I have no ....ing idea how this is a surprise to anyone at this point. Everyone's always in search of the next big thing, but doesn't want to pay big dollars for it. Every time, it ends the same way.


BRJ
Halo
Emperion
Strictly 7 (so I've heard)
Roter

Now these guys?


Never be the first. Never Ever. Wait until enough people have the product you're buying before you commit one penny of your own money. The worst that could happen is that you'd have to wait just a little bit longer.

And especially a "Black Friday" run of guitars, no less. That almost guarantees that the company will have more debt (in sold-but-as-of-yet-unbuilt guitars) than they have cash on hand to cover, so if a few people back out and want a refund, there's no money because all of the cash the company took in has been spent on materiel (or whatever) and they probably have very little or nothing to show for it. 

And when the first guitar gets delivered, and it's a ....ing pile, everyone goes to get their money back at the same time. And there is no money. And everyone who paid cash and has no guitar yet is SOL, because at best, they're gonna be bad, and at worst, your money is gone, vanished into thin air.

Think long and hard before spending your hard-earned on something that's untested. Make a builder EARN your business by having a track record of consistently producing quality work.


----------



## ice_age_magic

Let me start by saying - acacia guitars is located 15 minutes from where I live.

A while ago I was looking to get a custom made, and everyone here was saying "dude, just get one from acacia, his guitars look sick". All I ever saw was some dude who uses nice woods, and usually knows how to pick a nice top, but didn't actually have any skill - at least not enough to build top tier instruments - more like nice stools, tables, boxes.
That was about 2 years ago, and today I get confirmation that I was right. 

I feel your pain.. Really sorry this happened to you, but I guess it helps remind us all that sometimes, in the end, its easiest to take the long road to satisfaction.


----------



## capoeiraesp

Did you visit their workshop?


----------



## Danukenator

I posted a link to this on the Acacia facebook. I asked if they had any input on the matter. I guess they had a change of heart because they answered "We're issuing a full refund," but...then they pulled it down a day later. 

People on the Acacia FB page are super blind to the obvious build flaws.


----------



## Dethyr

Custom orders are so tough.. go with a smaller company and possibly get an end product like this or go with a big company's CS and wait like 9 years for a guitar and pay a price that falls close to a gaggillion dollars. 

Personally, I would just prefer to buy stock and customize myself and that way I know what's up. 

So sorry to hear about your troubles dude. I hope they get worked out.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Danukenator said:


> I posted a link to this on the Acacia facebook. I asked if they had any input on the matter. I guess they had a change of heart because they answered "We're issuing a full refund," but...then they pulled it down a day later.



As bad as the guitar is they have to protect their business. Right now Facebook is the number 1 way for builders to get new customers right now. If anyone with a build spot with them saw this thread they would not go through with it.

Hopefully they are giving a full refund because anything else is unacceptable. 



Dethyr said:


> Custom orders are so tough.. go with a smaller company and possibly get an end product like this or go with a big company's CS and wait like 9 years for a guitar and pay a price that falls close to a gaggillion dollars.



Don't be put off by threads like this. There are plenty of luthiers with quick build times(after starting), lowish prices, great communication with pictures and top notch quality.


----------



## xzyryabx

OP, have they contacted you directly yet?
Any resolution?


----------



## Dethyr

Lorcan Ward said:


> As bad as the guitar is they have to protect their business. Right now Facebook is the number 1 way for builders to get new customers right now. If anyone with a build spot with them saw this thread they would not go through with it.
> 
> Hopefully they are giving a full refund because anything else is unacceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be put off by threads like this. There are plenty of luthiers with quick build times(after starting), lowish prices, great communication with pictures and top notch quality.



Oh I am more than aware, I have a few that I would trust if I was to go that route, Guerilla guitars will get my money someday sooner than later, maybe Egan guitars as well but those are companies I trust because I know people in the companies.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

That's so sad man.
SOOOOOO SAD


----------



## Rus

I hope you get the refund from them and put that money towards a well-built instrument. I would have flown to california and shoved it up his ass.

I like to order custom guitars from well-established luthiers with a reputation for quality. Design comes second, and some luthiers will even let you design your headstock and body shape, although a lot won't deviate from what they like. One guy didn't take a $4,000 order cause he didn't want to use ebony instead of rosewood for the fingerboard.

If you only want a neck-through, that reduces your options for luthiers, but there are still some really good ones out there!


----------



## AVH

MetalDaze said:


> Do these guys not realize how easy it is to show how poor the work is to the whole world? If I was building guitars, I would be paranoid to ship anything not perfect, knowing it will end up on a website somewhere.



Indeed. In my line of work, I get to see and work on the shit stuff that gets sent out to folks, and it's still surprising to me that some of these instruments by some of these smaller builders doesn't make the one-way trip to the bandsaw instead. I mean, these days it's not a matter of if, but when, the poor workmanship and fundamental build errors are shown for all the world to see. And no matter what, it _will_ be rep damaging. It seems like most of these guys forget the infamous 1980's Wayne Charvel shop meltdown screaming "NEVER let shit leave this shop...EVER!!" before grabbing a rack full of duds and demonstratively marching over to the bandsaw in front of all the employees and one by one sawing them in half and throwing them off to the trash bin. 

I've got hundreds of horror-story repair pics I've built up over the years, from pretty much all companies, but the explosion of newer builders in the past 10 years has yielded the most fundamental errors and/or just obviously rushed, primitive shit that I've seen in many years; BRJ, Roter, Halo, S7, Blackmachine, Skervessen, Dot-on Shaft, and more. Make no mistake though, to a few of these builders credit, I have also seen some beautiful work as well, but unfortunately the major mistake for them is not recognizing when to NOT send that particular sloppy one out in hopes that no one cares or notices - which inevitably comes back and bites them in the ass. Every time. 

If they wish to stay in this business for the long haul, they really need to focus more on forethought and the quality of what they're sending out and how it may affect them down the road, rather than trying their damndest to rake in the cash as fast as humanly possible by rushing everything - where rushing produces mistakes and slop.


----------



## capoeiraesp

Blackmachine have faults? No way!


----------



## OmegaSlayer

capoeiraesp said:


> Blackmachine have faults? No way!


And Skerveseen too... 
We're not safe anymore


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Oh man, that's just insane...

Tbph, the only real custom guitar shop I 100% trust has got to be Carvin. I'm sure there are other ones, but their customer service is just killer. 

Anyways, I'm really sorry to see this, I hope you can get a full refund.


----------



## tyler_faith_08

I just want to state my version of what a few other people have said. 

You essentially negotiated a $3000 job with a luthier to build a guitar, to which they provided a shit product. If one thing didn't agree with the general consensus for what quality work should be, they have failed you. I don't know who said it earlier, but they were right in saying that they are responsible for their mistakes. It doesn't matter if the building burned down, you gave them money and they have a job to do and they need to do it and do it properly. Hell, if you agreed on a build and included specifications that weren't met, they knew the specification was too difficult in the first place and they should have informed you right then and there that it was going to present a problem. 

I've been a small-time custom performance mechanic in my off time for about 4 years now, with about 8 years before that as a general repair mechanic. Of all of the things that I've learned, I've learned that the importance of stressing that I don't know everything there is to know about motorsports (who does?) can't be overstated. I also request that the car/atv owner be present during the initial design and at any point(s) that the design has a significant change. If I'm doing a particular job for the first time, I do it for a pack of cigarettes plus the cost of parts and materials and I still offer a warranty. The reasons for this are one, I'm getting a chance to learn how to do something that I otherwise wouldn't have the chance to, two, I wouldn't pay for a job from an inexperienced mechanic myself, and three, because if I .... up, the guy isn't nearly as screwed over as he would have been had he paid for a potentially shit product. Either way, in the instance that something does go wrong I fix it on my dime.

To be obvious and technical, a professional is someone that is good enough at a skill set that they posses that they can exchange money for services in a total amount that is enough to at least sustain one's self. For these "professionals", they should be held to AT LEAST the same standard as I, a semi-professional. Realistically, they should be held to a much, much higher standard for both moral reasons and business ethics considerations. 

To sum it up, I'd fight my ass off to get a refund from these guys. I'd call every second that I had off, send an e-mail every day, send them links to this page, etc. until they agree to refund your money, offer free repairs AND monetary compensation for down time, or provide you with an actual top-quality guitar. I would be relentless. I mean, if I as a mechanic didn't make right the errors that I've made on some of my customer's cars, they would have never came back for more work or referred friends now would they?


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## Hollowway

AVH said:


> I have also seen some beautiful work as well, but unfortunately the major mistake for them is not recognizing when to NOT send that particular sloppy one out in hopes that no one cares or notices - which inevitably comes back and bites them in the ass. Every time.



Yeah, it's like that saying where a happy customer tells one person. An unhappy customer tells 10. It blows me away, as a non-luthier, non-repair person, that anyone would let something slip through that my unsophisticated eyes can easily detect. It just makes no sense, given what's at stake.


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## capoeiraesp

Just checked on Acacia's FB page. You can longer make a new comment, except on existing posts.

and just a little something I came across the other day before it was deleted.


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## ormsby guitars

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, it's like that saying where a happy customer tells one person. An unhappy customer tells 10. It blows me away, as a non-luthier, non-repair person, that anyone would let something slip through that my unsophisticated eyes can easily detect. It just makes no sense, given what's at stake.



But what really is at stake? Every guitar they have built that Ive seen, has faults. And yet people still blindly throw money at them. 

I called a guy to organise for his new custom to be picked up, as I was about to start assembly and setting it up at the time. He arrived not more than two minutes after I cut the neck in half, after dropping it on the floor. It chipped the end of the fretboard. I could have cut it down, or sanded the corner round, and relacquered, but then Id have to make an excuse why it wasnt ready, and why it wasnt square on the end.... the end that really doesnt matter. So i chopped it up. The poor guy was just about in tears, and really pissed off. It took three months to source another 5A birdseye maple neck and get it built (also went overseas for a month...). But, whilst he was pissed off at the time, he knew it would all be forgotten about later on down the track. Within a couple months he'd placed a deposit for a "do whatever you like, go crazy, I have a $5-6k budget" order. He wouldnt have been back if Id compromised. 

What these loothiers dont get, is that they can get away with faults for only so long. It takes one guy, not afraid to stand up, and then the flood gates will open. And that stuffs things up for all the guys that go above and beyond... just today I had a conversation with an Enferiolol owner, who is literally stressing over an order he has with me. He's been burnt. He's invested heavily. It didnt work out. It now lives in a closet. And it's effecting his ability to relax, and take in all the enjoyment and anticipation of having a guitar made specially for him. 

We need a guild, that can fight on behalf of the client. Where luthiers are held up to answer for their work. If you can't put your work up against the biggest brands in the world (employing minimum wage production line drones), and hold your head high without excuses, go back to being a hobby builder and selling your shit on ebay.


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## Danukenator

capoeiraesp said:


> Just checked on Acacia's FB page. You can longer make a new comment, except on existing posts.
> 
> and just a little something I came across the other day before it was deleted.



This was the comment I left. Thanks for taking out the name and such, I really appreciate it!

Just to explain why I posted it: I didn't do it to try and troll Acacia or mess with anyone. The Acacia Facebook page is full of nice photographs that, despite having some obvious flaws, can fool people without a trained eye into thinking they are pumping out amazing guitars. I'm sick of companies slapping together guitars from fancy woods and then delivering a shit product. All the while, they take nice photos, fool more people and censor any negative feedback. I fail to see the difference between that and a scam.

I figured it was going to get taken down. It's their right TO take it down. I hoped enough people would have viewed it to at least help a few people make an educated decision. Shit, most people don't even know that the BFR was a total shit show with 1A "flamed" maple tops, horrid neck pockets (that FYI they STILL haven't corrected. Check out the burled carved top on their Facebook), general cosmetic flaws and import level fretwork. I do think their inability to stand up and face their criticism speaks volumes about their integrity as a company.

I, will concede, probably shouldn't have posted it because it may have messed with the OP's ability to get a refund but I hadn't considered it at the time. However, let it be noted that they made a public statement saying they were refunding the money. Proof if the OP ever needs it.

EDIT: Perry said it really well. There needs to be a MODERATED place where people can fully disclose the issues with loothier (I'm totally using this from now on ). Frankly,and this is no one in particular, I hate seeing "NGD: Greatest, flawless guitar ever" followed by a FS thread in a matter of weeks. People are burning their fellow guitarists by not being fully honest. The recent trend is to say "Well, these flaws are not really flaws, more like imperfections." No, they are finish flaws. Own up to it and understand your resale needs to reflect and disclose the imperfection/defect/flaw/whatever.


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## OmegaSlayer

ormsby guitars said:


> We need a guild, that can fight on behalf of the client. Where luthiers are held up to answer for their work. If you can't put your work up against the biggest brands in the world (employing minimum wage production line drones), and hold your head high without excuses, go back to being a hobby builder and selling your shit on ebay.



That's an awesome idea, but...you know, someone must start it 
Because things don't get done by themselves.

As much as competition might go, most of you offer products that are different enough even if they appeal to the same core of people.
But I think the overall biggest interest in protecting your works, your ethics and your reputations should be more than enough to overcome the eventual differences.

So...good work! 
And I hope your idea will come through since it would greatly help people on the fence (like me) to make a purchase decision much much much easier.


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## Lorcan Ward

Danukenator said:


> I, will concede, probably shouldn't have posted it because it may have messed with the OP's ability to get a refund but I hadn't considered it at the time. However, let it be noted that they made a public statement saying they were refunding the money. Proof if the OP ever needs it.



No that would little to nothing to affects the OP's ability to get a refund since you simply asked them to explain why a guitar left their shop in that condition. Now creating a "Acacia victims/villians" article on a website would affect him and every other customer very badly.



Danukenator said:


> EDIT: Perry said it really well. There needs to be a MODERATED place where people can fully disclose the issues with loothier (I'm totally using this from now on ). Frankly,and this is no one in particular, I hate seeing "NGD: Greatest, flawless guitar ever" followed by a FS thread in a matter of weeks. People are burning their fellow guitarists by not being fully honest. The recent trend is to say "Well, these flaws are not really flaws, more like imperfections." No, they are finish flaws. Own up to it and understand your resale needs to reflect and disclose the imperfection/defect/flaw/whatever.



Most people just want to keep their head down and not get involved in any trouble. It is dishonest to sell on a guitar then 6 months later tell everyone on the forum that it had tons of flaws and problems but it looks like the majority of guitar players don't pick up on any of these problems.


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## AVH

OmegaSlayer said:


> That's an awesome idea, but...you know, someone must start it
> Because things don't get done by themselves.
> 
> As much as competition might go, most of you offer products that are different enough even if they appeal to the same core of people.
> But I think the overall biggest interest in protecting your works, your ethics and your reputations should be more than enough to overcome the eventual differences.
> 
> So...good work!
> And I hope your idea will come through since it would greatly help people on the fence (like me) to make a purchase decision much much much easier.



Because of all the stuff I see cross my bench over the years, and being annoyed at the overall lack of business ethics commonly seen nowadays, I've actually been thinking about hosting a 'Guitar workmanship disclosure forum', or something along those lines which I can moderate - being a professional repairman and not a builder makes me more unbiased/impartial than most, and knowing exactly what I'm looking at, and how it was done. 

Companies and builders wouldn't be thrilled, but it would be a win for the consumers buying these instruments and would force the builders into both stepping up their game, being obligated into taking responsibility for their works and satisfying the customer's complaints. Pondering it..maybe.


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## Stereordinary

Just skimmed through this thread (admitting I didn't read the whole thing), and wow. It's really a shame the guitar came in with so many flaws, cause in the one or two shots where you can't see the issues, it actually looks really cool. I was half contemplating PM'ing you about taking it off your hands, cause I know I could fix it up, but I didn't realize you were in AU. Then I saw that Ormsby is fixing it up, and that's just fantastic, good on him for helping out.


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## xwmucradiox

capoeiraesp said:


> Blackmachine have faults? No way!



My Blackmachine was a ....ing disaster.


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## capoeiraesp

^would love to know more.


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## ikarus

xwmucradiox said:


> My Blackmachine was a ....ing disaster.



May you want to tell us more?


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## GSingleton

dang....nah...aint about that life


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## Danukenator

Lorcan Ward said:


> No that would little to nothing to affects the OP's ability to get a refund since you simply asked them to explain why a guitar left their shop in that condition. Now creating a "Acacia victims/villians" article on a website would affect him and every other customer very badly.



I've seen some companies that will insist the OP sent trolls after them and then get really fussy with the refund. Kind of like what S7 started to do with Leonardo's *Boden.




Lorcan Ward said:


> Most people just want to keep their head down and not get involved in any trouble. It is dishonest to sell on a guitar then 6 months later tell everyone on the forum that it had tons of flaws and problems but it looks like the majority of guitar players don't pick up on any of these problems.



This is also a huge part of the issue. People view criticism as a "attack" on a small business owner. People need to understand that without reviews and full disclosure the wave of loothiers won't be stopping anytime soon.

EDIT: Also, I'm starting to get tired of hearing that Blackmachine has made some really shitty guitars and then everyone backs away after throwing the statement out. I don't doubt that it's true but have the guts to not run into a room, yell something out and then back off without an explanation. It just amounts to slandering the builder.


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## ramses

Danukenator said:


> The Acacia Facebook page is full of nice photographs that, despite having some obvious flaws, can fool people without a trained eye into thinking they are pumping out amazing guitars.



The way they take the pictures, it isn't really possible to see the flaws, which of course is not surprising at all.

The only flaw that can easily be seen, because it is large, and difficult to not picture it, is the huge gap in the neck pocket.


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## Lorcan Ward

xwmucradiox said:


> My Blackmachine was a ....ing disaster.



Can you explain why or is that mostly because you got a Swamp Ash Body instead of a Mahogany and had to pay extra for a case before shipping?



Danukenator said:


> I've seen some companies that will insist the OP sent trolls after them and then get really fussy with the refund. Kind of like what S7 started to do with Leonardo's *Boden.



Yeah that really didn't go down to well. Strictly7 handled that situation very badly and look at their reputation now!



AVH said:


> being a professional repairman and not a builder makes me more unbiased/impartial than most



The thing here is you are going to see flaws and problems with instruments that 99% of guitarists wouldn't notice or ever know about unless you told them.

The only guitar my luthier/tech has ever been happy with is my Schecter Custom Shop, he was appalled at my Ibanez and the fact they've never fixed the construction + setup problems they've had since the early 90s/late 80s. Now it was nothing that repairs and a very in-depth setup can't fix but it just showed me how knowledgeable techs are and how picky you can be with a guitar that looks/plays and sounds amazing already.


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## xwmucradiox

ikarus said:


> May you want to tell us more?





Lorcan Ward said:


> Can you explain why or is that mostly because you got a Swamp Ash Body instead of a Mahogany and had to pay extra for a case before shipping?



I've posted many times about my Blackmachine problems but QC wise there were a lot of sanding scratches in the ebony top. There was a ton of bright white filler around the binding where the routing was sloppy. The routing around the plate on the back was sloppy. It just wasn't built as well as I would expect a $4000 guitar to be built.


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## trayenshreds

capoeiraesp said:


> Just checked on Acacia's FB page. You can longer make a new comment, except on existing posts.
> 
> and just a little something I came across the other day before it was deleted.



To the guy that did this, that was pretty awesome. Way to stand up for a fellow SS'er!

To the OP, checked back in and it looks like your getting a refund. All for the best. Now you can buy 4x of the new Tosin TAM10's


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## OmegaSlayer

AVH said:


> Because of all the stuff I see cross my bench over the years, and being annoyed at the overall lack of business ethics commonly seen nowadays, I've actually been thinking about hosting a 'Guitar workmanship disclosure forum', or something along those lines which I can moderate - being a professional repairman and not a builder makes me more unbiased/impartial than most, and knowing exactly what I'm looking at, and how it was done.
> 
> Companies and builders wouldn't be thrilled, but it would be a win for the consumers buying these instruments and would force the builders into both stepping up their game, being obligated into taking responsibility for their works and satisfying the customer's complaints. Pondering it..maybe.



I think you and Ormsby should get in touch and start speaking about starting this guild.
I think you can quite confidently contact Galeazzo Frudua, he's not on this board and I don't know him personally but he seems the kind of guy that is nice, proud of his work/service and that doesn't like people to get scammed.

Dylan Humphries from Daemoness is another dead serious guy about his working ethics and would accept a guild imho.

You know, you need a little snowball to start an avalanche.
Eventually seeing people accepting some work ethics and making it a "branded standard" will force people to join the guild and comply.

But...maybe it would be interesting to open a thread here and ask people who wouldn't feel at ease to buy a custom luthiery guitar, how they would feel if there was some kind of guild endorsing working ethics to protect the customer.


----------



## Acme

OmegaSlayer said:


> I think you can quite confidently contact Galeazzo Frudua, he's not on this board and I don't know him personally but he seems the kind of guy that is nice, proud of his work/service and that doesn't like people to get scammed.
> 
> Dylan Humphries from Daemoness is another dead serious guy about his working ethics and would accept a guild imho.


 
You realize that codyblast is from Australia, right?


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## OmegaSlayer

Acme said:


> You realize that codyblast is from Australia, right?



Do you realize you haven't read some posts?


----------



## xwmucradiox

What benefits would the guild offer to luthiers? At the moment it seems like a society for shaming builders over poor workmanship but I dont think anyone is going to pay to join nor want to be formally associated with such a negative group.


----------



## hardvalve

I just had a bad experience with a custom guitar. 14 months, was supposed to be 3, 2 cracks in body alongside the neck pocket, clearly had finish put over the cracks. Huge gap in neck pocket, horribly cut electronics cavity, and poor poly finish that was supposed to be tung oil. Neck fretted out on the high E above the 7th fret. Gorgeous woods, that were butchered by this guy. The neck is salvageable, and having a local luthier friend make a new body for the neck. 

Fretsong headless guitars. I got a partial refund, not even enough to cover the cost of the new body. Baritone 28.5 ( Should have been 28.6). More excuses than you can imagine, then sent me a guitar Squier would not have allowed out their door. Important they are held accountable.


----------



## ormsby guitars

xwmucradiox said:


> What benefits would the guild offer to luthiers? At the moment it seems like a society for shaming builders over poor workmanship but I dont think anyone is going to pay to join nor want to be formally associated with such a negative group.



It would be a group of luthiers that hold the same high regard for service, accountability and quality. There would be a free trade of information, support and encouragement. It would be peer controlled. Same as a cabinet makers guild. Same as a master builders association. Same as the many groups around the world that strive to better their trade by working with each other. 

Or, you could just have what we already have. And that's f&$k all. 

I've got a local clown that advertises my products second hand, to trade off my goodwill. When a customer calls him "yeah mate, sorry, it just sold... But I can make you one just the same, but cheaper". It's cheaper alright. He also happens to be promoting a musician who wrongly believes she plays one of his instruments, an instrument of the type he's never built before, but is more that happy to take your money to experiment. And you know what? You can't stop him. But a guild could provide a warning. Education. Even events or publications to inform people of how to spot a crook. If any single luthier did that he'd face criticism. Same as I did for pointing out blatant faults in the work of the very company this thread is about, six months ago. 

We've got guys taking money and running. We've got guys doing subpar work. No one is accountable. Only their personal ethics to live by. Those that have hard earned their reputation are less willing to go on a limb. I do it. I want the industry to improve. I want to leave this industry in a better shape than it is now. 

The only luthiers not interested in bettering the trade on behalf of the general public, would be those not worth dealing with. 

But it would be a shit tonne of work.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

xwmucradiox said:


> What benefits would the guild offer to luthiers? At the moment it seems like a society for shaming builders over poor workmanship but I dont think anyone is going to pay to join nor want to be formally associated with such a negative group.



wow...no wait...
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!
Do you really think that?

NEGATIVE group my ass.

There are luthiers that CLEARLY have passion and make their works not only with professionalism, but with LOVE.
Yeah, I said it.
LOVE
Even too much at times.

It's in the interest of honest luthiers to form a guild to protect their work from people that calls themselves luthiers but they don't even know how to hold a saw or use some spray can instead of finishing an instrument.


----------



## xwmucradiox

OmegaSlayer said:


> wow...no wait...
> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!
> Do you really think that?
> 
> NEGATIVE group my ass.
> 
> There are luthiers that CLEARLY have passion and make their works not only with professionalism, but with LOVE.
> Yeah, I said it.
> LOVE
> Even too much at times.
> 
> It's in the interest of honest luthiers to form a guild to protect their work from people that calls themselves luthiers but they don't even know how to hold a saw or use some spray can instead of finishing an instrument.



I think you misunderstand the way a guild has to work to be successful. In order to "protect" anything such a group would have to control the ability of others to be called luthiers. More or less like the way only certain real estate agents are actually Realtors. Or how SAG ensures that a certain percentage of actors on any shoot are SAG members. With many trades you cant get a professional license unless you are a guild member or have completed an apprenticeship with a guild member. The group suggested here would just be a group of luthiers banding together presumably to promote each others work and maintain high quality themselves. I seriously doubt this proposed guild would have any clout with non-members. 

Not that its not an honorable idea. I just don't think it would have any effect on the industry.


----------



## MF_Kitten

AVH said:


> Because of all the stuff I see cross my bench over the years, and being annoyed at the overall lack of business ethics commonly seen nowadays, I've actually been thinking about hosting a 'Guitar workmanship disclosure forum', or something along those lines which I can moderate - being a professional repairman and not a builder makes me more unbiased/impartial than most, and knowing exactly what I'm looking at, and how it was done.
> 
> Companies and builders wouldn't be thrilled, but it would be a win for the consumers buying these instruments and would force the builders into both stepping up their game, being obligated into taking responsibility for their works and satisfying the customer's complaints. Pondering it..maybe.



It's the right thing to do. The ethical thing. It's needed. It will be hated, but for bad reasons. I want to see this happen. I would simply make a subreddit (basically a reddit.com subforum) for this. On reddit anyone can make a throwaway account for anonymity in a couple seconds too!


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

It would be nice if there were a group such as Comsumer Reports that would demo new brands and gear and give comparable reviews of both the product and services side-by-side all in the same media/format.


----------



## xwmucradiox

RV350ALSCYTHE said:


> It would be nice if there were a group such as Comsumer Reports that would demo new brands and gear and give comparable reviews of both the product and services side-by-side all in the same media/format.



Would be cool but its much harder to do with guitars from obscure builders that cost $5000 and take years to get than it is to do with paper towels and appliances.


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

xwmucradiox said:


> Would be cool but its much harder to do with guitars from obscure builders that cost $5000 and take years to get than it is to do with paper towels and appliances.



Agree 100%, my thought was moreso just as "wouldn't it be nice if" kind of statement after considering the timeline in custom guitars 

By the time the review comes out the company could have shit the bed and are mass selling junk based on previous positive feedback.


----------



## abandonist

I love the idea of a luthier's guild. No one has to join it to call themselves a luthier; it's just a stamp of approval on your work. Like peer reviews. Why would any consumer not want this?


----------



## Ben.Last

abandonist said:


> I love the idea of a luthier's guild. No one has to join it to call themselves a luthier; it's just a stamp of approval on your work. Like peer reviews. Why would any consumer not want this?



Because it's not effective. There's a reason why guilds require membership in order to use those names.


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## canuck brian

Lorcan Ward said:


> The thing here is you are going to see flaws and problems with instruments that 99% of guitarists wouldn't notice or ever know about unless you told them.
> .



I have to disagree with you here. This website in particular is full of the highest level gear whores and a lot of them have DSLR's and a very keen attention to detail when the guitar is in front of them.

Honestly, I'm very confident when i ship a guitar, but there's always a thought in the back of my head "maybe i missed something....". That being said, I wouldn't shit the bed like this.


----------



## will_shred

MF_Kitten said:


> It's the right thing to do. The ethical thing. It's needed. It will be hated, but for bad reasons. I want to see this happen. I would simply make a subreddit (basically a reddit.com subforum) for this. On reddit anyone can make a throwaway account for anonymity in a couple seconds too!



Making a subreddit seems like the perfect idea. However I highly doubt the cesspool of /r/guitar would endorse it, which would have to happen in order to get any traffic what so ever.


----------



## canuck brian

abandonist said:


> I love the idea of a luthier's guild. No one has to join it to call themselves a luthier; it's just a stamp of approval on your work. Like peer reviews. Why would any consumer not want this?



How are the people who deem who has the title of "luthier" going to actually judge other luthier's guitars from the other side of the planet? If something like this actually happened and people attempted to enforce it, I'd tell the entire group to kiss my ass for attempting to profit off my hard work and the name I've attempted to establish. 

If you look at Acacia's facebook page, people were practically having a circle jerk over the OP's guitar before seeing his full review. Pretty sure that someone "reviewing" a guitar wouldn't be able to say how decently built it was from just carefully taken pictures.


----------



## xwmucradiox

canuck brian said:


> How are the people who deem who has the title of "luthier" going to actually judge other luthier's guitars from the other side of the planet? If something like this actually happened and people attempted to enforce it, I'd tell the entire group to kiss my ass for attempting to profit off my hard work and the name I've attempted to establish.
> 
> If you look at Acacia's facebook page, people were practically having a circle jerk over the OP's guitar before seeing his full review. Pretty sure that someone "reviewing" a guitar wouldn't be able to say how decently built it was from just carefully taken pictures.



Yep. If you wanted to have any sort of peer review system that was worthwhile you would have to constantly be sending guitars around to the group for everyone to judge in person. And who is going to pay for this? Builders would probably just pass the cost of their club onto the customer, who would be suffering longer wait times because the builders would be spending time building guitars for peer review instead of for customers. Guitar shows like the Montreal Guitar Show are probably a better way to manage this sort of idea. Have builders promote each other and look at each others work at the show. But honestly, the market is small and the economy sucks, I doubt many builders would want to lose potential sales to competitors by promoting and announcing approval of their work.


----------



## abandonist

You guys seem to just be arguing against the idea on some strange principle. Who's going to pay for it? Oh yes, there's a solid reason to not do it. Exactly how much do you think this would cost someone to join? Probably $100 a year. No one needs to send anyone guitars. You come across them in being alive, and they are then discussed amongst your peers. It would literally just be a stamp on your page. No one isn't an actor because they're not in SAG. They're just not a SAG-Actor. But let's not actually use that group as a literal comparison since they have little to do with each other.

Have any of you ever been involved in a craft field before? One where other people see your art and discuss it in a tangible way to gain respect? This really isn't very hard. Don't like the idea? Don't join or support it. Think it'd help further your craft, or add some amount of peace-of-mind when purchasing a guitar? Then look for the stamp.


----------



## xwmucradiox

abandonist said:


> You guys seem to just be arguing against the idea on some strange principle. Who's going to pay for it? Oh yes, there's a solid reason to not do it. Exactly how much do you think this would cost someone to join? Probably $100 a year. No one needs to send anyone guitars. You come across them in being alive, and they are then discussed amongst your peers. It would literally just be a stamp on your page. No one isn't an actor because they're not in SAG. They're just not a SAG-Actor. But let's not actually use that group as a literal comparison since they have little to do with each other.
> 
> Have any of you ever been involved in a craft field before? One where other people see your art and discuss it in a tangible way to gain respect? This really isn't very hard. Don't like the idea? Don't join or support it. Think it'd help further your craft, or add some amount of peace-of-mind when purchasing a guitar? Then look for the stamp.



What we're saying is that the rubber stamp quality of what is being discussed carries zero weight with us.


----------



## abandonist

Sweet, but I'm not really seeing a reason for that thinking other than being a competitive dude like the guy above. 

More knowledge and idea sharing is _always_ a good thing.


----------



## xwmucradiox

abandonist said:


> Sweet, but I'm not really seeing a reason for that thinking other than being a competitive dude like the guy above.
> 
> More knowledge and idea sharing is _always_ a good thing.



It depends on who you are and what your stake is. Sharing all your innovative/exclusive ideas and methods with other folks only to have them appropriate them for themselves isn't very good for the innovator. There are always multiple angles.


----------



## abandonist

I'm a chef. It's a high "theft" field where it pertains to technique. The way I look at it when someone "steals" my tech is that I would have given it to them for free if they'd only asked. That way they're at least doing it in an informed fashion and not just doing a shitty job of interpreting it. I can tell them about what does and doesn't work to get there, and then they can go on with their own spin. Someone taught me the things that led me to the point that I could think that up. It would be wrong to not share. It does nothing for the furthering of the craft. 

I mean, you can guard your shit like a hawk. It's all going to get out there one way or another. You might as well help make everything better.


----------



## elq

well, I know f_u_ck-all about building guitars, but I suspect the problems companies like Acacia are having are not related to a lack of knowledge of technique but because they seem to have no f_u_cks to give.


----------



## canuck brian

abandonist said:


> I mean, you can guard your shit like a hawk. It's all going to get out there one way or another. You might as well help make everything better.



I frequently post extremely detailed build threads for all of my guitars so I'm really not hiding anything.


----------



## abandonist

Well there you go. It doesn't have to be some super elitist bullshit thing. It's yours to create and shape. Make a cool community. One of y'all just starts an invite-only message board and you compare notes.


----------



## AVH

I'm looking into maybe making a phpbb forum and registering a domain for it...true, it will take some work, but in the end it's _for the consumer's benefit_, and to hopefully to help keep luthiery integrous and forthright. It's NOT for the sole intention of shaming anyone, everyone makes mistakes...but if a builder insists on taking folk's hard-earned cash and sending out shit _on a repeat basis_, people need to know about it to avoid heartbreak. There's the proverbial bite in the ass that came back, because doing that to customers is unfair and truly unnecessary to begin with. I feel as strongly about this as I do about Chinese forgeries. If people stopped buying them, they'd stop making them. That simple.

I appreciate any and all input from everyone, as it would be open to all.


----------



## Ben.Last

abandonist said:


> I'm a chef. It's a high "theft" field where it pertains to technique. The way I look at it when someone "steals" my tech is that I would have given it to them for free if they'd only asked. That way they're at least doing it in an informed fashion and not just doing a shitty job of interpreting it. I can tell them about what does and doesn't work to get there, and then they can go on with their own spin. Someone taught me the things that led me to the point that I could think that up. It would be wrong to not share. It does nothing for the furthering of the craft.
> 
> I mean, you can guard your shit like a hawk. It's all going to get out there one way or another. You might as well help make everything better.



Are you a member of the chef's guild?


----------



## Ben.Last

AVH said:


> I'm looking into maybe making a phpbb forum and registering a domain for it...true, it will take some work, but in the end it's _for the consumer's benefit_, and to hopefully to help keep luthiery integrous and forthright. It's NOT for the sole intention of shaming anyone, everyone makes mistakes...but if a builder insists on taking folk's hard-earned cash and sending out shit _on a repeat basis_, people need to know about it to avoid heartbreak. There's the proverbial bite in the ass that came back, because doing that to customers is unfair and truly unnecessary to begin with. I feel as strongly about this as I do about Chinese forgeries. If people stopped buying them, they'd stop making them. That simple.
> 
> I appreciate any and all input from everyone, as it would be open to all.



I think a forum dedicated to this would be a great idea. Allow, rather than "force" luthiers to display their work. and promote it as a centralized place to find detailed reviews, recommendations, and images. Because, as awesome as SS is, it's not really the ideal outlet for this stuff.


----------



## abandonist

Ben.Last said:


> Are you a member of the chef's guild?



No, because the chef's guild is geared toward the traditional side of my profession. It's about hotel work, culinary school, and classic french cookery. I have no interest in any of those. If that's the side of the industry someone is on, then I'd recommend it though.


----------



## pushpull7

codyblast said:


> I'm not angry. I'm just very, very disappointed.



I think you have a right to be angry. I can only speak for myself, but there would be some rollin' heads if it were me.


----------



## Ben.Last

abandonist said:


> No, because the chef's guild is geared toward the traditional side of my profession. It's about hotel work, culinary school, and classic french cookery. I have no interest in any of those. If that's the side of the industry someone is on, then I'd recommend it though.



So, then how could anyone know that food that you will prepare is going to be good?


----------



## abandonist

That's a silly comparison. Just based on risk/reward someone will take a $30 chance on dinner much faster than a $3000 investment.

Also: Yelp, Tripadvisor, Urbanspoon, awards from every news outlet in town, inclusion in a book about the best chefs in America... I have loads of critical reviews of my work by both the public and my peers. There are stickers on the door from being voted the number 1 restaurant in the city from Tripadvisor, and the BCA title for 2 years in a row. Also best cocktails in the city 2 years in a row by 3 sources.

There's a few stamps on my side.

And no one is saying someone would have to be a member of a guild to have any skill. It's just an endorsement and vote of confidence.


----------



## arielmarx1014

What I find the most interesting throughout this whole thread is that not once did the builder chime in to comment/make things right or even defend themselves. Nothing, unless I missed it.


----------



## TemjinStrife

abandonist said:


> You guys seem to just be arguing against the idea on some strange principle. Who's going to pay for it? Oh yes, there's a solid reason to not do it. Exactly how much do you think this would cost someone to join? Probably $100 a year. No one needs to send anyone guitars. You come across them in being alive, and they are then discussed amongst your peers. It would literally just be a stamp on your page. No one isn't an actor because they're not in SAG. They're just not a SAG-Actor. But let's not actually use that group as a literal comparison since they have little to do with each other.
> 
> Have any of you ever been involved in a craft field before? One where other people see your art and discuss it in a tangible way to gain respect? This really isn't very hard. Don't like the idea? Don't join or support it. Think it'd help further your craft, or add some amount of peace-of-mind when purchasing a guitar? Then look for the stamp.



Of course, the issue with using such a stamp is you would need to design and register it as a (possibly international) trademark. Then, when someone uses it against the owners' will or without their permission, you'd have to sue them for trademark infringement, etc.

It's an expensive proposition to do something like that. A friend of mine works for the ESRB (an industry self-regulating body for video games) and they run into the issue of companies using their marks and ratings all the time; it's not a simple thing to enforce when someone truly gives no ....s.


----------



## Ben.Last

abandonist said:


> That's a silly comparison. Just based on risk/reward someone will take a $30 chance on dinner much faster than a $3000 investment.
> 
> Also: Yelp, Tripadvisor, Urbanspoon, awards from every news outlet in town, inclusion in a book about the best chefs in America... I have loads of critical reviews of my work by both the public and my peers. There are stickers on the door from being voted the number 1 restaurant in the city from Tripadvisor, and the BCA title for 2 years in a row. Also best cocktails in the city 2 years in a row by 3 sources.
> 
> There's a few stamps on my side.
> 
> And no one is saying someone would have to be a member of a guild to have any skill. It's just an endorsement and vote of confidence.



It's not a silly comparison at all for the purposes of this conversation. It's the same exact thing, regardless of scale.

So, what you're saying is, regardless of guild membership, there are plenty of ways for potential customers to determine the quality of your service? So... what good exactly is the guild membership again?


----------



## Danukenator

Ben.Last said:


> It's not a silly comparison at all for the purposes of this conversation. It's the same exact thing, regardless of scale.
> 
> So, what you're saying is, regardless of guild membership, there are plenty of ways for potential customers to determine the quality of your service? So... what good exactly is the guild membership again?



Plus, what if people noted for quality guitars decide not to join? Or, even worse, what if truly top tier builders denounce it publicly because members aren't on their level? Someone like Matsuda can put all but a few people to shame. 

Ignoring the legal issues regarding enforcing and protecting it, I feel like it could quickly become exploited or subject to infighting.

In my opinion, the best route is to simply encourage full disclosure in NGD's and, respectfully, point out flaws when they go un-noticed. Hype is the number one cause of ignoring sloppy mistakes.


----------



## Ben.Last

Danukenator said:


> Plus, what if people noted for quality guitars decide not to join? Or, even worse, what if truly top tier builders denounce it publicly because members aren't on their level? Someone like Matsuda can put all but a few people to shame.
> 
> Ignoring the legal issues regarding enforcing and protecting it, I feel like it could quickly become exploited or subject to infighting.
> 
> In my opinion, the best route is to simply encourage full disclosure in NGD's and, respectfully, point out flaws when they go un-noticed. Hype is the number one cause of ignoring sloppy mistakes.



Not to mention the fact that we've had a handful of builders that have released plenty of amazing guitars and then taken swift dives right into the gutter (BRJ anyone?)

I am totallly for AVH's idea of a dedicated forum for luthiers and luthier reviews. I would absolutely love that, just from the perspective of being able to find the ideal luthier to build my next custom.


----------



## ormsby guitars

I wouldn't get your knickers in a knot over the guild idea fellas, it ain't going to happen. 

Those that have a reputation don't need a guild. They don't have the time, and by helping others they would be giving them a competitive advantage. 
Those that deserve a reputation will continue to strive for it. 
And the clients that don't research, inspect or choose a lower price as a deciding factor will continue to take the gamble. 

But I do love seeing all the negativity towards the idea.


----------



## tyler_faith_08

Has anyone considered maybe a stickied thread for this? This as in the quality control subject. 

One person constantly edit the first post with a list of builders and their good/bad ratings in a adjacent columns. Other members can link a thread with a build and the original poster can decide whether it meets a good or bad criteria because hey, he's the one that had to pay for the damn thing.

No other site would be needed, no fees, no shipping, no membership, nothing. Simple.

EDIT: It will probably take a few weeks to get it straightened out, but if it was started now, it'll be done when that few weeks comes and goes. Then we have an index thread with the respective build thread staying in the forum. Another moderation rule could be that no one gives a review that makes the thread unless a post is provided to back it up, unless X number of people can verify it (10). After the initial hump, it could be easily updated in a matter of a few minutes a day. You don't have to be super technical, no in-depth statistics or anything like that. Base it on "was the guy who paid for it satisfied?".


----------



## Danukenator

ormsby guitars said:


> But I do love seeing all the negativity towards the idea.



The negativity is coming from a logistics and practicality standpoint, I'm sure most would love to see a way to enforce QC on builders.

Shit, people STILL think BRJ is a good builder and have no idea about the BFR.


----------



## hardvalve

People getting ripped off is getting old. I am to the point now, where I don't even trust small builders anymore. 1 bad life event and stuff can go south really fast.


----------



## Danukenator

hardvalve said:


> People getting ripped off is getting old. I am to the point now, where I don't even trust small builders anymore. 1 bad life event and stuff can go south really fast.



Same here, unless your a USA based builder like KxK who offers in-stock models, I'm simply done with small builders. I've yet to see a top tier production brand be rivaled by small builders. I don't care for fanned frets and I don't need a crazy fancy top, so I don't see the benefit of going to a small builder other then the eventual headache of delays upon delays.


----------



## abandonist

For me it's about having a guitar made that doesn't exist.

30/27, 5 strings from a low E, 5th tuning, 2 high strings doubled. 

I can't go to a store and get something even remotely close to that.


----------



## Danukenator

Sure, but how many people need that? I'm going custom for my 10 string simply because I've had a bad Agile in the past. However, for all my other needs, the market has plenty of options.


----------



## abandonist

Oh definitely. There are plenty of great instruments to be had without the hassle of going custom. I'd wager it's entirely vanity for the overwhelming majority of custom NGDs we see here.


----------



## Ben.Last

For me it's just the fact that I'm a lefty, and there are things (not even totally "out there" things) that I just cannot get stock. It's aggravating.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

abandonist said:


> Oh definitely. There are plenty of great instruments to be had without the hassle of going custom. I'd wager it's entirely vanity for the overwhelming majority of custom NGDs we see here.



Yes for 6 strings but 2 years ago there wasn't half the options available as there are to to extended-range players now. 

If you wanted a 26.5" scale, comfortable satin neck, no EMG 707s, no floyd, no tom-bridge you were s**t of luck unless you went custom. Most 7 strings came with floyds and 25.5 scales so its great to see companies listening to their customers and churning out new fixed bridge extended range models. Moving on to 8 strings there was less and less options. On top of that again if your a left handed player than you screwed altogether. 

Things like that are what really caused a boom in the custom guitar world the 2-3 years. Unfortunately this led to a lot of guitars like the OP's.


----------



## Danukenator

To be clear, I DID NOT say there wasn't a reason to buy a custom. I said, given my tastes, the market for six, seven and eight strings has developed to the point where companies like Schecter, Ibanez, Tom Anderson, Suhr, etc. have enough high end options that I can simply purchase one of them. I will have to compromise on some specs like if I wanted a strange wood, etc. However, I'd rather compromise before dealing with a mid-tier small luthier again. 

My personal experience has probably been different then others.


----------



## Stereordinary

On the subject/idea of guilds, or forums dedicated to educating guitar buyers about what's out there, I was thinking that a website dedicated to guitar reviews might be more useful. Think of it like Yelp for guitars. You buy a guitar, and you go on there and you give it a rating in various categories and then you have blank fields where you can just say whatever good/bad thing you want to say. The end result is you have luthiers from all over the world rated as one to five stars (or whatever rating system is most useful). You can easily say 'well the five star luthier is who I'm going to for my next custom build, and I will pay them handsomely for what I know will be awesome work,' or 'well that one-star luthier should probably just quit because they aren't getting my money.' 

I'm not tech-savvy enough to set something like that up myself, and I don't really know how easy it would be for people to fake reviews and make luthiers who do shit work look good. But I imagine if there's a way to set it up and make people be honest about it, it could work.


----------



## Stereordinary

It occurred to me after posting my reply above, that Harmony Central is kind of like a reviews for gear website. But seriously, does anybody go there anymore? For this idea to work it would have to be a site that actually looks really nice.


----------



## codyblast

Hey guys, just dropping in with some news:

I've been in contact with a still unnamed employee of Acacia (the guy who answers emails)

I am waiting on a return shipping ticket so I can send the guitar back free of charge

A refund is going to happen, they have said I might have to wait for it until they have the funds available to do it, and then I will be refunded. There hasn't been any discussion yet on the exact amount, but I'm expecting at least full cost of the guitar itself, and I'll be asking for a refund on original shipping as wel, and will look into if they are obliged to do so by Californian law. Import fees I have been told can be reversed by customs in the case of a refund, so hopefully I manage to get that cash back too (which is independant of acacia)

To guys who have been considering taking this off my hands to fix,
I'm sorry but I believe this to be the same situation as buying mouldy food from a store and selling it to someone to cut the mouldy parts out, yeah it might be fine after that but it's still ....ed up and the business should be held accountable

Thanks again Ormsby for the repair offer. At least in this situation I can get a full build from you when a spot opens up!


----------



## arkohors

codyblast said:


> Hey guys, just dropping in with some news:
> 
> I've been in contact with a still unnamed employee of Acacia (the guy who answers emails)
> 
> I am waiting on a return shipping ticket so I can send the guitar back free of charge
> 
> A refund is going to happen, they have said I might have to wait for it until they have the funds available to do it, and then I will be refunded. There hasn't been any discussion yet on the exact amount, but I'm expecting at least full cost of the guitar itself, and I'll be asking for a refund on original shipping as wel, and will look into if they are obliged to do so by Californian law. Import fees I have been told can be reversed by customs in the case of a refund, so hopefully I manage to get that cash back too (which is independant of acacia)
> 
> To guys who have been considering taking this off my hands to fix,
> I'm sorry but I believe this to be the same situation as buying mouldy food from a store and selling it to someone to cut the mouldy parts out, yeah it might be fine after that but it's still ....ed up and the business should be held accountable
> 
> Thanks again Ormsby for the repair offer. At least in this situation I can get a full build from you when a spot opens up!



"Until they have funds available to do it"......That's some bad accounting if you don't have available funds ready for refunds or anything else for that matter. 

As if the atrocity of the guitar built for the OP wasn't enough to steer you away, this should be a red flag for anyone thinking about placing an order with Acacia. If they can't afford around $3K for a refund, imagine what else they can't pay...


----------



## ramses

arkohors said:


> "Until they have funds available to do it"......That's some bad accounting if you don't have available funds ready for refunds or anything else for that matter.



This is the third time I see a small custom shop do that.


----------



## mcsalty

codyblast said:


> A refund is going to happen, they have said I might have to wait for it until they have the funds available to do it, and then I will be refunded.





I think we all know how that one usually turns out... If I were you I wouldn't send the guitar back until it's clear that you're getting the money for sure. Unless of course I read the post wrong and you're not actually sending the guitar before they refund you, in which case my bad! Best of luck anyway, hope everything works out


----------



## Danukenator

25$ says we see this things for sale with a few minor tweaks as an in stock in a little while.

I would not, repeat would not, send the guitar back without at least receiving half of the money first. Once they have the guitar in their possession your options are incredibly limited as to what you can do to fight for refund. Presently the guitar is your only bargaining chip.


----------



## Vzmike

I got to give it to you man...I mean I'm not sure how your e-mail conversations have gone with them but I know I would have had my breaking point a while ago if I was in your shoes. Really hope everything works out for you, and that the statement of the refund comes to fruition sooner then later.

This just goes to show you should be wary of any small-group custom shops...'cept for Dylan Humphries. That man is a damn machine.


----------



## Neilzord

I've just come across this thread and I can't believe they even let that out to be viewed by real eyes. 

Fingers crossed you get your refund. And sorry you've had to go through this!!! 

On a side note.......... This thread makes me want an Ormsby.


----------



## asher

Danukenator said:


> 25$ says we see this things for sale with a few minor tweaks as an in stock in a little while.
> 
> I would not, repeat would not, send the guitar back without at least receiving half of the money first. Once they have the guitar in their possession your options are incredibly limited as to what you can do to fight for refund. Presently the guitar is your only bargaining chip.


 

This this this.


----------



## Ben.Last

arkohors said:


> "Until they have funds available to do it"......That's some bad accounting if you don't have available funds ready for refunds or anything else for that matter.
> 
> As if the atrocity of the guitar built for the OP wasn't enough to steer you away, this should be a red flag for anyone thinking about placing an order with Acacia. If they can't afford around $3K for a refund, imagine what else they can't pay...



This is not exactly abnormal for small shops. A large portion of their overhead gets paid per build. It's a precarious situation, but it's also not surprising.


----------



## SANDS

Wow, that is some horrible work.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Ben.Last said:


> This is not exactly abnormal for small shops. A large portion of their overhead gets paid per build. It's a precarious situation, but it's also not surprising.



Be that as it may, it's kind of sad for any business of any caliber to not be able to institute a refund when their product is defective and indeed displays unprofessionalism, to say the least! Especially when we're dealing with thousands of dollars.


----------



## SkullCrusher

Blimey, Thats unbelievable.

I cry A little inside when I see things like this happen.

Whats worse is that acacia will still be making dud guitars for lots of money.

Did you contact them?


----------



## Jonathan20022

DO NOT SEND THAT BACK. You're throwing away most if not all of the opportunities to get a refund you would have had if you do. Call it paranoia, but it only seems like they considered giving you a refund after the backlash from this thread and public postings on their Facebook. They don't strike me as the the kind of people who can keep to their promises, especially when it involves them losing 3k+ and owning up to a terrible build.

I'd be very wary if I were you and plan your next move accordingly. If I were you, I would demand 75% of the refund first with a contractual agreement saying that they will give you the 25% once the instrument has been delivered back. You need some kind of leverage man.


----------



## Ben.Last

Jonathan20022 said:


> DO NOT SEND THAT BACK. You're throwing away most if not all of the opportunities to get a refund you would have had if you do. Call it paranoia, but it only seems like they considered giving you a refund after the backlash from this thread and public postings on their Facebook. They don't strike me as the the kind of people who can keep to their promises, especially when it involves them losing 3k+ and owning up to a terrible build.
> 
> I'd be very wary if I were you and plan your next move accordingly. If I were you, I would demand 75% of the refund first with a contractual agreement saying that they will give you the 25% once the instrument has been delivered back. You need some kind of leverage man.



While I understand the sentiment (and I would absolutely make sure you have something in writing guaranteeing their requirement to give you a refund), rather than go off of rumor, innuendo, and what kind of people they strike others as, I will, again, point out that I had no problems getting them to take care of the issues I had when I got my guitar or getting them to reimburse me for the stuff I had to get taken care of locally. Now, that amounted to small potatoes compared to the $3k here, but can we please keep things to the reality of the situation, rather than bringing our own baggage to it?


----------



## Jonathan20022

Ben.Last said:


> While I understand the sentiment (and I would absolutely make sure you have something in writing guaranteeing their requirement to give you a refund), rather than go off of rumor, innuendo, and what kind of people they strike others as, I will, again, point out that I had no problems getting them to take care of the issues I had when I got my guitar or getting them to reimburse me for the stuff I had to get taken care of locally. Now, that amounted to small potatoes compared to the $3k here, but can we please keep things to the reality of the situation, rather than bringing our own baggage to it?



But does he really have any kind of realistic leverage if he lets go of the guitar and just puts his faith in their word? I've had enough of my friends get burned by luthiers and their whole "Don't have the funds, I'll pay you back ASAP" card for quite some time. And only one of my friends actually got out of the situation with persistence through his bank (BRJ BFR Run). I have another friend of mine who had the luthier run off and basically avoid him constantly while continuing to sell instruments to others, all while saying he's saving up to pay him back.

I'm just telling him that he should make sure he's got something to hold onto, like you said 3k is quite a bit of cash. If I were in his shoes, I'd be hard pressed to just let that money slip out of my hands. If they make do on their word, good on them, but if they don't there's no one there to hold them responsible.


----------



## Ben.Last

Jonathan20022 said:


> But does he really have any kind of realistic leverage if he lets go of the guitar and just puts his faith in their word? I've had enough of my friends get burned by luthiers and their whole "Don't have the funds, I'll pay you back ASAP" card for quite some time. And only one of my friends actually got out of the situation with persistence through his bank (BRJ BFR Run). I have another friend of mine who had the luthier run off and basically avoid him constantly while continuing to sell instruments to others, all while saying he's saving up to pay him back.
> 
> I'm just telling him that he should make sure he's got something to hold onto, like you said 3k is quite a bit of cash. If I were in his shoes, I'd be hard pressed to just let that money slip out of my hands. If they make do on their word, good on them, but if they don't there's no one there to hold them responsible.



Oh, I agree. I definitely think he should at least get something in writing stating that they're giving him a refund.


----------



## Rojne

Haven't read anything else but the first post, but damn.. when I saw the pics of when the string-tree was loosen'd, I said "..noo, that can't be for real.." out for myself! 
I feel really sorry for you dude, receiving this sorry piece.. hope you get it playable!


----------



## Rational Gaze

This is an absolutely atrocious story. I'm so sorry dude. This is why I stay away from small "boutique" luthiers for the most part. When I see horror stories like this, I'm glad I stuck to Carvin and Ibanez. I at least know what I am going to get. 

I hope you can somehow recoup some of your money. It's asinine that they somehow didn't have your cash (very poor business practice) before the guitar was even shipped out. It shows a bit of how their entire business model is run. 

Best of luck man.


----------



## aquinatis

There's one thing I do not understand: these guys are building and selling expensive guitars. They know that between their customers there are real musicians, not only funny guys like me. They could not imagine such bad job wouldn't be noticed. 

Suicidal tendencies may be....


By the way, sorry for your story. The worst is that this guitar looks great on the pics....


----------



## AxeHappy

I was a guitar teacher for about 9ish years. I saw countless $100 or less guitars. 

I have only seen one guitar as ....ed up as this. And it was some ....ing $30 half sized pink piece of unplayable shit. 

Plenty of no name circa $100 guitars that are better than that though. ....ing disgusting that that would ever leave a shop.


----------



## MoshJosh

am I missing something or should you be able to see the lighter color of the two outer stripes of maple in the neck? or is it a paint/picture thing


----------



## capoeiraesp

Cody, has anything happened?


----------



## codyblast

I've been on tour so haven't had much time to confer with the guys. So far, there was a return shipping sticker idea which didn't happen, as well as someone coming to pick the guitar up when I wasn't home (fedex or whatever) which i didn't agree to as I wasn't going to be home, so he couldn't take it with out a signature which in hindsight is probably a good thing
Will keep updated when I'm back from tour


----------



## capoeiraesp

Good stuff. Did they indicate when your refund would come through?


----------



## capoeiraesp

Hey Cody, any word?


----------



## ilyti

Don't even let it out of your hands, until you get confirmation of at least a majority refund UP FRONT, with the remaining amount after they receive it. If they don't agree to that, or are just delaying you more with "Oh I dunno about that, let me ask my boss" emails, then post this thread on their facebook over and over until they agree to it. If they don't, you can still win, in a way. Their reputation is ruined, and hey, they won't have a "almost perfect!" used in-stock piece to sell to some ignorant chump. Sell it to Ormsby or whoever wants to give you $500 for it (for example, i dunno) and they can mess with it, or use it for parts. Get SOMETHING out of this, even if the company doesn't follow through with their word on a refund.


----------



## decreebass

No - don't post this thread. SSo will delete it and be perfectly justified in doing so. I'm the guy who had the thread exposing the horrible business practices of .............. and how badly they ripped me off. Long story short, it was one of the most popular and commented thread in the studio sub-forum and the guys from .............. even posted and were crucified when people saw through their shenanigans - They filed a cease & desist against SSO for defamation of character and SSo removed the thread, despite it's value to the music community.

Just be careful. This is not a free speech issue since this is a privately-ran website. I'm surprised the same thing hasn't happened to you yet. Maybe that company isn't aware of the power of the internet lol.

I do hope you get everything sorted out


----------



## decreebass

see? even the name of the company is on the banned list of words!!! Haha I didn't know that. If you're curious, PM me, but I won't try to post it in a way that gets around the editor. I try to be straight shooter around these forums now 

I've decided to let the matter rest and move on with my life- but suffice it to say I was screwed out of thousands of dollars with ZERO satisfaction in the end.


----------



## asher

Notice how this thread is still up.

Notice how the gigantic BRJ zombie thread exists.

Go read the ViK thread.

Also, how did that happen with your March '13 join date, unless this is a second account?


----------



## decreebass

asher said:


> Notice how this thread is still up.
> 
> Notice how the gigantic BRJ zombie thread exists.
> 
> Go read the ViK thread.
> 
> Also, how did that happen with your March '13 join date, unless this is a second account?



Like I said; their lawyers contacted this site's admin team and I got a PM warning me to just drop it and the thread had to be deleted. Like I said - the thread was on fire. 

This company has been fighting fire all over the net from people they ripped off - the thread was toward the top of Google's search results so I'm sure they felt they had to take action. Thankfully I posted enough places that it still at the top of most search results, especially if you add "rip off" into the search terms. So they are not new to C&D letters on forums and whatnot. Of course, I wish I would have known before I spent my money with them...

I'm not sure what your question about my join date refers to - can you elaborate? I see you've got a few likes for that post and I don't understand what I'm missing. I'm not being facetious, I honestly don't know what you're getting at. You literally can't type the name of the company on this page any more. Or maybe it's just me: I don't know if they can ban certain words/terms from select users. I tried to tell a guy in a PM who it was and it got edited. Just email my username at gmail dot com for details if you want the full scoop.

But please do explain what about my join date you're getting at. I don't quite understand if you're calling 'shenanigans' on my statement or what, but I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding - we're all friends here 

Edit: no this is my first and only account. I did get banned for a week one time for mentioning the word "djent" lol. That was weird.

Here's a link to the doc that has the whole thread archived - should be public so anyone and their tech-savvy grandmas should be able to access it - WARNING it's 49 pages long.... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByjUybrVsKgMMWZsckZKTWhpXzA/edit?usp=sharing

OP - I didn't mean to hijack your thread; I just don't want you getting in trouble here or otherwise. Some of these companies are vicious with litigation, but it seems I just happened to pick the worst to mess with.


----------



## Guamskyy

I just reread OP's description on the whole debacle, and I noticed you changed A LOT of specs on the guitar while it was being built. I don't know about you, but if I was a luthier and a customer constantly changing things on their guitar mid-build, to be blunt, shit would be everywhere. And then after all the changes they did for you and you decide to ask for a refund, I wouldn't see an unjustifiable answer being that you can't receive a refund because of how far in the build you were. I'm not trying to defend them in any sort of way, but I'm just bringing it to the table.


----------



## abandonist

decreebass said:


> wall of text



That link was the weirdest hissy fit I've ever seen.


----------



## asher

TIL: apparently we have more than one product-name word filter on this site. I thought you were talking about a different person/product which has been filtered... which was finishing up when I joined in 2010. Hence my confusion about the join date - there's no way you could have started that with your first and only account joining last year. My apologies. I do remember the thread in question.

Aside from your example and possibly what I'm thinking of (I don't remember why the filter happened there), everything else stands and the mods are pretty good about defending open discussion. But if somebody threatens legal action to the site and the admin has to drop it or pay legal fees... >.>


----------



## decreebass

asher said:


> TIL: apparently we have more than one product-name word filter on this site. I thought you were talking about a different person/product which has been filtered... which was finishing up when I joined in 2010. Hence my confusion about the join date - there's no way you could have started that with your first and only account joining last year. My apologies. I do remember the thread in question.
> 
> Aside from your example and possibly what I'm thinking of (I don't remember why the filter happened there), everything else stands and the mods are pretty good about defending open discussion. But if somebody threatens legal action to the site and the admin has to drop it or pay legal fees... >.>



Yea. I was a little miffed that they removed what I felt was a valuable thread, but I completely understand their reasoning. I didn't fight it or whine. That said, of course, a C&D is by no means anywhere close to a lawsuit; it's really just a scare tactic that worked; especially since *ahem* (said company) participated in the thread. They would have had no legal legs to stand on.

@abaondonist - "wall of text"? No need to be rude, man - I apologize if my posts are a bit more substantial than some - sometimes more information needs to be conveyed - especially about important things like litigation against one of my favorite websites (SSO, if that wasn't clear). I was just trying to help the community out. I think if you read the whole thing then you would see it as more than a mere "hissy fit." I will concede (and I do state my own faults in the post) that I wasn't entirely rational in my actions AFTER THE FACT once the situation was hopeless, but that doesn't change the rip-off. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Sorry for this wall of text 

TL;DR: blah blah blah


----------



## ilyti

I just want to add, I never saw that thread decreebass is talking about until he posted the text version of it just now. It is a long read, but worth it. It's good to know from a first-hand account about any company that has shifty policies, and will argue with you on a message board..

I just did a google search of the company + "ripoff" and the first mention of this review is 8 results down, at a different message board, but it's still there. I actually wonder if the company has actually learned anything since last year, or have lost a significant amount of business.


----------



## decreebass

ilyti said:


> I just want to add, I never saw that thread decreebass is talking about until he posted the text version of it just now. It is a long read, but worth it. It's good to know from a first-hand account about any company that has shifty policies, and will argue with you on a message board..
> 
> I just did a google search of the company + "ripoff" and the first mention of this review is 8 results down, at a different message board, but it's still there. I actually wonder if the company has actually learned anything since last year, or have lost a significant amount of business.



I think last I checked (quite some time ago) they had changed some of the deceptive wording. It's a small victory; but the customer should know what they're ACTUALLY getting - not some hyped-up fantastical panacea version that the company wants the customer to believe they are getting. And it's actually the first result - someone resurrected a similar thread over at Harmony Central. I also posted this on the CarvinBBS. ANYWAY... This will be the last I mention of this. PM me or email me if you want to know more or have any questions. Again, OP sorry to hijack your thread. I Promise I'm done 

Cody! Any word yet? Is this company gonna make it right for you?


----------



## codyblast

guambomb832 said:


> I just reread OP's description on the whole debacle, and I noticed you changed A LOT of specs on the guitar while it was being built. I don't know about you, but if I was a luthier and a customer constantly changing things on their guitar mid-build, to be blunt, shit would be everywhere. And then after all the changes they did for you and you decide to ask for a refund, I wouldn't see an unjustifiable answer being that you can't receive a refund because of how far in the build you were. I'm not trying to defend them in any sort of way, but I'm just bringing it to the table.



Well, I would agree, aside from that the most basic specs ie:
Construction, lack of inlays, finish, woods, etc were always the same.
I always wanted a single coil in the neck, but they just never did that.
They put on the wrong top (flame instead of quilt) having to restart the guitar because of this (I would've been fine with quilt had I known it was already glued on, the progress pictures look as though they had just placed it on for a 'use your imagination' of the finished guitar)
The only changes I made (not as a response to their incompetence) that weren't on the original concept, were the brand of machine heads, and the brand of humbucker. This was before it was even all glued together.
Further changes made after they screwed up: 
Masked 'binding' instead of actual binding (they didn't do any)
Aforementioned top wood debacle
Luminlay inlays ended up being normal (no communication on this, didn't find out until I opened the case)

The vast majority of the changes to the original build was me attempting to get something that slightly resembled what I wanted and ordered after numerous errors and bad communication on their part. The email chain got large and out of hand simply because they wouldn't reply addressing my points and would send progress shots too far apart for me to catch any big errors before I had a chance to. Anyway, the specs aren't the issue. This is hardly a 'high specced' guitar. It's the overall lack of QUALITY or PLAYABILITY that is the issue. Guitars are made to be played. Can't play it? It's firewood. Refund.

UPDATE:
Communication is still pretty bad, but I've received 50% of my refund. I'm waiting on shipping info so I can return the guitar, to then recieve the second half of my refund. The horrible lack of clear communication is making me very hesitant to send before receiving full refund, but we'll see what happens when they decide to reply to me on the next blue moon.

I've bought an RG8, I'm going strip it and mod it to relieve some guitar related stress and to tie me over until I figure out who is WORTH the money I'll be spending to eventually actually get the bloody guitar I want.


----------



## dametalbeast

So first off I just want to give an extreme sincere apology to anyone that I might have offered this guitar to (Acacia Romulus 7). at the time of offering I was not aware of the functional flaws but would've eventually found out as I set up all my guitars before shipping. as for aesthetic flaws none of the offers got past the initial offer into detail. I had bought the guitar from the original owner without him telling me that it was 26.5" scale so I was quick to sell/trade it as I'm not comfortable with that scale length. After a couple weeks of it just sitting around in the case I decided to set it up. As I was setting it up I noticed the truss rod wasn't giving much of any movement and it had multiple dead frets. I gave it the benefit of the doubt and took it to a luthier in a nearby shop for initially just some fret leveling. He later confirmed that the truss rod was faulty and unusable. I then took it to another luthier the same day, left it with him for a day and he re-confirmed (I was in denial that the guitar I bought was ....ed hence why I took it to two luthiers) and also found other issues. this is the official statement from him "Hello, After evaluating the above mentioned guitar, I've found it to be defective in its manufacturing. The truss rod does not move the neck at all leaving the neck to be severely bowed with way too much relief. The neck pocket of the instrument also is too deep making the action height way higher than a normal spec, even with the bridge saddles on the Kahler lowered as much as they can be. Sometimes a thin shim can be installed into the neck pocket to "boost" the neck up higher. Unfortunately, even a shim with an above-average thickness still doesn't get the neck anywhere near where it should be. So the combination of the neck pocket and worthless truss rod leave this guitar in a horrible playing state. I would contact the manufacturer about a replacement instrument or contact the seller you purchased it from. I've attached a few pictures showing the high string-height and also the thick shim in the neck pocket which wasn't thick enough with the high action." That was an assessment he did so I could show the seller I bought it from. He doesn't mention how he also had to adjust the nut because it actually had a shim underneath the nut because it was probably miscalculated and placed too low on the neck. after getting it home I pretty much did an autopsy on it and found a couple more aesthetic flaws. a crack on the fretboard, a piece of the headstock had been chipped off then glued back on. the guitar also has the gap in the neck pocket like some of the others shown in here, about 1ml. the multiple minor sanding/building flaws didn't affect playability but just proved the horrible QC. even though I'm not the original owner I felt that this needed to be said based on my experience, to show that this is not a company to give your money to. hopefully they've stepped it up. I don't think the person who sold me it knew (he said he never messed with the truss and the exact set up came from Acacia), more trouble than its worth (unless he though that I wouldn't find out or say shit?) but he's already refunded me. Hopefully he has some luck in getting this solved, as of now Acacia still haven't contacted me or the original owner back.











[URL=http://s340.photobucket.com/user/dametalbeast/media/tumblr_n2u1k78eUG1r04i9eo1_500_zps16630564.jpg.html]






[/URL]


----------



## dametalbeast

also sorry to hear about that man, shitty situation I really hope they give you a full refund and quickly. I can't even understand how they let product out like that, do they just hope people won't say anything or....?


----------



## Ben.Last

dametalbeast said:


> So first off I just want to give an extreme sincere apology to anyone that I might have offered this guitar to (Acacia Romulus 7). at the time of offering I was not aware of the functional flaws but would've eventually found out as I set up all my guitars before shipping. as for aesthetic flaws none of the offers got past the initial offer into detail. I had bought the guitar from the original owner without him telling me that it was 26.5" scale so I was quick to sell/trade it as I'm not comfortable with that scale length. After a couple weeks of it just sitting around in the case I decided to set it up. As I was setting it up I noticed the truss rod wasn't giving much of any movement and it had multiple dead frets. I gave it the benefit of the doubt and took it to a luthier in a nearby shop for initially just some fret leveling. He later confirmed that the truss rod was faulty and unusable. I then took it to another luthier the same day, left it with him for a day and he re-confirmed (I was in denial that the guitar I bought was ....ed hence why I took it to two luthiers) and also found other issues. this is the official statement from him "Hello, After evaluating the above mentioned guitar, I've found it to be defective in its manufacturing. The truss rod does not move the neck at all leaving the neck to be severely bowed with way too much relief. The neck pocket of the instrument also is too deep making the action height way higher than a normal spec, even with the bridge saddles on the Kahler lowered as much as they can be. Sometimes a thin shim can be installed into the neck pocket to "boost" the neck up higher. Unfortunately, even a shim with an above-average thickness still doesn't get the neck anywhere near where it should be. So the combination of the neck pocket and worthless truss rod leave this guitar in a horrible playing state. I would contact the manufacturer about a replacement instrument or contact the seller you purchased it from. I've attached a few pictures showing the high string-height and also the thick shim in the neck pocket which wasn't thick enough with the high action." That was an assessment he did so I could show the seller I bought it from. He doesn't mention how he also had to adjust the nut because it actually had a shim underneath the nut because it was probably miscalculated and placed too low on the neck. after getting it home I pretty much did an autopsy on it and found a couple more aesthetic flaws. a crack on the fretboard, a piece of the headstock had been chipped off then glued back on. the guitar also has the gap in the neck pocket like some of the others shown in here, about 1ml. the multiple minor sanding/building flaws didn't affect playability but just proved the horrible QC. even though I'm not the original owner I felt that this needed to be said based on my experience, to show that this is not a company to give your money to. hopefully they've stepped it up. I don't think the person who sold me it knew (he said he never messed with the truss and the exact set up came from Acacia), more trouble than its worth (unless he though that I wouldn't find out or say shit?) but he's already refunded me. Hopefully he has some luck in getting this solved, as of now Acacia still haven't contacted me or the original owner back.



If you haven't already, you may want to try turning the truss rod in the opposite direction. Whatever type of rod they used in mine had action that was the opposite of the usual.


----------



## capoeiraesp

^i get that you have Acacia in your banner but c'mon man, it's been taken to two techs. You're adding insult to injury.


----------



## Ben.Last

capoeiraesp said:


> ^i get that you have Acacia in your banner but c'mon man man, it's been taken to two techs. You're adding insult to injury.



Dude. I'm not an endorsee or anything and I don't work for the company. I've had one for over a year now (which was around when I made up my banner, because it's been my main guitar), mine was fine, and I've been in this thread the entire time offering advice in relation to the crap they're apparently putting out now, since I dealt with them in the building of my own. Is it unreasonable to think that it's possible that neither tech thought to turn the truss rod backward??? I just figured I'd offer it up as a possibility before he sticks the thing in his fireplace.


----------



## capoeiraesp

Honestly, I don't believe two techs would miss such a thing because the first thing they would've done is checked and tested the truss-rod for any functionality at all. I get that you're trying to help but the truss-rod is only one part of several glaring issues.


----------



## Ben.Last

capoeiraesp said:


> Honestly, I don't believe two techs would miss such a thing because the first thing they would've done is checked and tested the truss-rod for any functionality at all. I get that you're trying to help but the truss-rod is only one part of several glaring issues.



If the neck is completely bowed, and the truss rod isn't moving, I don't think it's impossible that they didn't think to turn it waaaaay back the other way (which would have been what it would have taken to realize it's backward at that point).

And, yes, I realize that there are other reasons his guitar is a mess. Just one of the many examples that are the reason that I haven't ordered another guitar from them. But, if it's a simple answer that happened to be missed, then that's one step in the right direction for him to get the thing playable. And, regardless of all that, I simply offered it as one simple thing to try, just in case.


----------



## DeathChord

I have read way to many horror stories about this company and have see the pictures as proof. It bothers me greatly to see fellow musicians get taken advantage like this. 

If I were to act out on what I think of such people, I'd be in a cell drawing pictures of guitars I'd never have chance to play. I truly hope you get taken care of on this deal and remember, what comes around will go around.


----------



## dametalbeast

Ben.Last said:


> If you haven't already, you may want to try turning the truss rod in the opposite direction. Whatever type of rod they used in mine had action that was the opposite of the usual.



that was the first thing I did man, didn't give


----------



## codyblast

Hey guys, update:

Nothing. I recieved a partial refund after almost daily nagging on my part, since then I have been told I will either receive prepaid return shipping advice, or the cost of shipping with the rest of the refund, and neither has happened. I emailed them a couple weeks ago saying I'm giving up. It's been a massively stressful ordeal that has lasted years, and I'm not interested in taking it any further so I have them notice that if they don't complete the refund or provide shipping details (how am I supposed to return the guitar without a return address) that I'll be putting this up for basically a giveaway 'sale' to try and recoup at least something. So yeah. That's there if they decide to check their emails. Acacia have pretty much completely ignored me as an unhappy (ripped off) customer and continue to do so, so if the situation hasn't changed then someone's gonna have a nice fixer-upper for dirt cheap.


----------



## TraE

codyblast said:


> Hey guys, update:
> 
> Nothing. I recieved a partial refund after almost daily nagging on my part, since then I have been told I will either receive prepaid return shipping advice, or the cost of shipping with the rest of the refund, and neither has happened. I emailed them a couple weeks ago saying I'm giving up. It's been a massively stressful ordeal that has lasted years, and I'm not interested in taking it any further so I have them notice that if they don't complete the refund or provide shipping details (how am I supposed to return the guitar without a return address) that I'll be putting this up for basically a giveaway 'sale' to try and recoup at least something. So yeah. That's there if they decide to check their emails. Acacia have pretty much completely ignored me as an unhappy (ripped off) customer and continue to do so, so if the situation hasn't changed then someone's gonna have a nice fixer-upper for dirt cheap.


Just stumbled upon this thread today. Things like these always blow my mind. You would think smaller companies would be brown-nosing the shit out of customers so they would tell all their friends and fellow forum denizens that they need to save up for said companies awesome guitars. Clearly the guitars in this case are far from awesome, and their customer service is on par with their build quality. I hope Acacia never sells another guitar again, what a shit company.


----------



## Alex Kenivel

....ing shit man that's horrible, I remember when this post was new, and still nothing??? That's horseshit and I'm sorry they're treating you this way. I hope anyone who googles this company finds this thread and thinks twice about ordering a guitar from them. More than that, I hope they get busted for some shady illegal shit like tax evasion or something..karma, ya know?


----------



## jwade

This thread should really be tagged heavily so that it shows up as one of be very first search results when looking for that company.


----------



## Go To Bed Jessica

Bastards. Utter, utter bastards. 

This just makes me really sad.


----------



## capoeiraesp

Cody, you should go take Perry Ormsby up on his offer.


----------



## Ben.Last

That's really ....ing upsetting. I was hoping that they'd at least come through eventually and make things "right" so that I don't have to have that dirty feeling every time I pick mine up.

I know you said you don't want to go any further, but keep in mind that the fact that they gave you a partial refund, in conjunction with the correspondence that I'm sure you've amassed, would make a small claims suit a pretty sure thing.


----------



## codyblast

capoeiraesp said:


> Cody, you should go take Perry Ormsby up on his offer.



I would dude, but the quick rundown of costs he quoted (reasonably I might add) to get this guitar to a reasonable level just stacked up too quickly. Full refret, body work, refinish etc, and that's before even finding out if the neck is totally ....ed or any other problems, id rather give that money to perry for a full custom than trying to polish a turd. A huge part of buying a custom is the experience and personal attachment to the guitar which in this case is entirely negative, no amount of repairs will fix that damage. As soon as perry is taking custom shop orders again you can bet I'll be straight on it though!


----------



## ormsby guitars

codyblast said:


> I would dude, but the quick rundown of costs he quoted (reasonably I might add) to get this guitar to a reasonable level just stacked up too quickly. Full refret, body work, refinish etc, and that's before even finding out if the neck is totally ....ed or any other problems, id rather give that money to perry for a full custom than trying to polish a turd. A huge part of buying a custom is the experience and personal attachment to the guitar which in this case is entirely negative, no amount of repairs will fix that damage. As soon as perry is taking custom shop orders again you can bet I'll be straight on it though!



Smash the guitar on video and i'll open up the order books for you immediately


----------



## Alberto7

You can't not love Perry Ormsby, period.


----------



## capoeiraesp

DO IT!


----------



## Alcoholocaust

YESSS!!


----------



## ikarus

GO!


----------



## Svava

Plus- freakin' -one !


----------



## codyblast

ormsby guitars said:


> Smash the guitar on video and i'll open up the order books for you immediately



Haha holy shit! Really? Can I take out the pickup and machine heads first? Or do I have to munch the whole thing intact? I'm freaking doing this.


----------



## crg123

lmao I hope he wasn't joking. Be sure to make sure  if he is post it here so we can know its dead and gone.


----------



## asher

codyblast said:


> Haha holy shit! Really? Can I take out the pickup and machine heads first? Or do I have to munch the whole thing intact? I'm freaking doing this.



Just come up with the most awesome and/or cathartic way possible, then film.


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, come up with a really cool and original way to do it, film it well (maybe a couple of iPhones, one of them with the slo-mo on), put it on youtube as a warning to future Acacia owners, and protect those would-be customers ignorant of the real story with this company.


----------



## asher

Maybe with some really deadpan Ben Eller style jokes.


----------



## capoeiraesp

codyblast said:


> Haha holy shit! Really? Can I take out the pickup and machine heads first? Or do I have to munch the whole thing intact? I'm freaking doing this.



Dude, do it and I'll make your own build process photo/video shoot.


----------



## codyblast

^______________________^


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

This thread went from disappointment, to anger, then to a thing of beauty. I love it.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

Perry Ormsby is a beautiful human being  

...patiently awaiting the smashing video...


----------



## Alcoholocaust

Oh man this is going to be sweet.


----------



## teamSKDM

very excite


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Go around town looking for a woodchipper being used and ask if you can borrow it.


----------



## JamesM

Oh my god yes. If this actually happens this will be the greatest thing I've ever seen during my time here. And that includes the legendary Ed Roman Photobucket debacle!


----------



## broj15

climb the tallest structure you can find and drop it headstock first.


----------



## ormsby guitars

codyblast said:


> Haha holy shit! Really? Can I take out the pickup and machine heads first? Or do I have to munch the whole thing intact? I'm freaking doing this.



Sure, lets reuse what we know is good to save you some dollars. 

Ormsby Guitars Hypemachine acceptance video - YouTube

Ormsby Guitars Waitlist Acceptance Program - Entry Video - YouTube


----------



## Nag

Oh my, what this thread just became 

If you smash that guitar on video, holy crap, huge respects. Doing so would mean, I prefer destroying it forever and losing money rather than giving these guys another chance. Powerful message.

Ormsby, you're so incredibly unique . You're one of my favourite characters out there. Everyone raves over Blackmachines ? Let's do Hypemachines ! There's a builder who sucks ? Destroy his guitar and I'll make you one ! You're incredibly professional, dedicated to your work, and at the same time, you're a hilarious dude and you even "troll gently" (your concurrents, I mean). Massive props to your inputs for this thread 

And you're the biggest winner in this thread, for good reason.


----------



## Stompmeister

ormsby guitars said:


> Sure, lets reuse what we know is good to save you some dollars.
> 
> Ormsby Guitars Hypemachine acceptance video - YouTube
> 
> Ormsby Guitars Waitlist Acceptance Program - Entry Video - YouTube



Not gonna lie, that dudes Pacifica actually held up pretty damn well! Huge fan of your works too Perry, cheers from NSW.


----------



## Slunk Dragon

Mr. Ormsby is seriously a man full of class.

Please go full-on epic with the destruction of this guitar!


----------



## Orandje

Will be a great relief AND a wonderful beginning! 
Do that "from the highest building Neck/Head first"-thing, followed by putting it in liquid nitrogen and classically smashing it in pieces, so that no Man has ever to worry about such bullshit!


----------



## Neilzord

YES. Just YES, Lots of times. 

Perry - You Legend.


----------



## asher

Orandje said:


> Will be a great relief AND a wonderful beginning!
> Do that "from the highest building Neck/Head first"-thing, followed by putting it in liquid nitrogen and classically smashing it in pieces, so that no Man has ever to worry about such bullshit!



"This is where I'd Hendrix shred the shit out of this thing before lighting it on fire *stares directly at camera* if it were worth a damn."


----------



## lewstherin006

If you dressed up as the hulk and said "hulk smash" and beat the crap out of it with a sledge hammer while it is on fire, that would be EPIC.


----------



## asher

"Now for some extra, real-life sweeping applications with the Acacia Romulus Multiscale 8.

The kitchen floor after a raw egg food fight!

Your driveway! Sweep hard enough and you get pesky kids' chalk off!

Your gravel path! Nothing works better!"


----------



## Svava

Hire a martial artist to 360 roundhouse the body off of the neck.

If you're in TX I'll do it


----------



## asher

Alternately, if you can source the camera, a super high def slowmo smashfest.


----------



## shawnperolis

I've been following this thread for awhile and I've come to the conclusion that Perry Ormsby is the best person in the world.


----------



## ormsby guitars

shawnperolis said:


> I've been following this thread for awhile and I've come to the conclusion that Perry Ormsby is the best person in the world.



That's what she said. 











Not often, but it did happen once. :/


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## asher

shawnperolis said:


> I've been following this thread for awhile and I've come to the conclusion that Perry Ormsby is the best person in the world.


 
Perry's proven himself to be so awesome it makes me want a Hypemachine or something just to show it 

Maybe by the '15 run I'll be closer to good enough to actually warrant it/have the monies.


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## Perfectly Awkward Cat

Can't wait for the Destruction Video / Ormsby Guitar Deal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ferret

Eagerly awaiting destruction.


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## Convictional

Drench it in liquid nitrogen, snap it in half once it's frozen solid, use the neck to keep your beer cold in a beer cooler and get college girls in bikinis to play frisbee with the body while you sit back and enjoy the view of tits and imminent guitar destruction.


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## UV7BK4LIFE

Make a series of guitar flips, no straplocks, and the cheapest and longest strap you can find.

[YOUTUBEVID]DiC4aIRWsis[/YOUTUBEVID]


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## AxeHappy

I hate when people destroy guitars. Just give the instrument to some poor kid who can't afford a guitar. 





However, by all accounts even calling this thing a guitar is an insult to the fine art of stringed instrument building. 

Smash it the .... up.


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## Espresto

What became of this?


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## codyblast

Unfortunately I've had to spend a bunch of money on fixing my car and trying to get ahead on bills, and haven't been able to save for a deposit for an ormsby yet! Also trying to source a chainsaw and sledgehammer to use on old captain firewood. It will happen, patience my darlings


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## Nag

This is so extremely juvenile but I can't wait for it


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## capoeiraesp

So I hear something is coming of this.


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## codyblast

You heard right. Was planning to do it on Saturday, but the filming guy was unavailable. I'm seeing him soon, and he has a camera capable of slow motion so you guys will get to see the splinters fly off in great detail!


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## asher

codyblast said:


> You heard right. Was planning to do it on Saturday, but the filming guy was unavailable. I'm seeing him soon, and he has a camera capable of slow motion so you guys will get to see the splinters fly off in great detail!


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## downburst82

Set up a couple of cameras if possible(even if just the one can do slow-mo), I want to see some EPIC cinematic angles!!!


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## stuglue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqTlxv5z1Xc

Anyone believe the comments that the past is behind them?


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## Danukenator

Considering there is stain bleed onto the headstock logo in that video, not really.


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## Ben.Last

Danukenator said:


> Considering there is stain bleed onto the headstock logo in that video, not really.



It's an old video.


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## Danukenator

Ben.Last said:


> It's an old video.



That is a mistake on my part. I thought it uploaded in 2014, not 2013. Still, I haven't seen enough detail shots of new builds to give these guys an ounce of credit.


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## Ben.Last

Danukenator said:


> That is a mistake on my part. I thought it uploaded in 2014, not 2013. Still, I haven't seen enough detail shots of new builds to give these guys an ounce of credit.



Oh, I totally agree. It being an old video only explains that particular guitar; it doesn't indicate at all that they've turned things around.


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## codyblast

stuglue said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqTlxv5z1Xc
> 
> Anyone believe the comments that the past is behind them?



It sure as hell isn't behind me, the agreement was a full refund and I return the guitar to them. That hasn't happened yet, I'm still substantially out of pocket, they've stopped replying to me months ago, and I'm smashing this guitar in HD slow mo to achieve 2 things

A/ A giant middle finger to this company

B/ to hold my word on the deal Perry made with me. Smash Acacia; and open his order book for me. Which considering he's really only taking on batches of hypemachine orders once a year, is a pretty damn good deal for me to finally get a beautiful instrument that will last a lifetime, rather than this chunk of sh!t


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## BetterOffShred

Balls Man, I'm really sorry to hear this went down the way it did. It seems like a huge waste of time and energy. As others have pointed out, when you order something custom it should be really special and last a life time. When Within the Ruins came through town a few weeks ago, Joe said that he had a couple of them for a while (the green one from a few playthrough videos etc) but he was having a hard time getting any guitars. Sad to hear this company is circling the bowl, but with how they treated you as a customer, I say give them a big F you and follow through on the Ormsby, those guitars are sick as hell anyway 

-Brett


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## Lorcan Ward

codyblast said:


> A/ A giant middle finger to this company



I think giant is an understatement. A video like that would go viral as soon as metalsucks/facebook pages etc get wind of it and bury Acacia Guitars. 

It might be worth one last email demanding a full refund otherwise you're going to smash the guitar. It sounds like they are ignoring you in the hopes you go away. They just posted on Facebook that they are stepping up their game and building lots of new guitars so they can definitely afford to give you a refund.


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## ormsby guitars

Go one last email Cody. Tell them the deal. See if they relent. If not feel free to use my 20 tonne press to lower the action on this piece of shit. And the nut. And the...

If you get your $3000+ back you'll buy yourself a nice guitar until the custom arrives. 

Do what feels right for YOU. You won't lose your order either way


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## octatoan

"lower the action"

Stanley Jordan approves.


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## Slunk Dragon

They've stopped replying to you, so I'm pretty sure the more preferable option would be to smash that guitar into a thousand glorious pieces in hi def!


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## codyblast

Yeah, I'll give em another email but I doubt they'll respond.


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## MetalDaze

codyblast said:


> Yeah, I'll give em another email but I doubt they'll respond.



Even if they do, would you believe them?


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## codyblast

Well good and bad news. They finally responded , with a prepaid shipping label attached to the email and are refunding the rest of the guitar! Which is great! However I can't smash it now (((((((((((((((((((

I might use the refund to buy a cheap pawn shop piece of shit and smash that anyway, sorry to let you guitar gore fiends down ahahah


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## crg123

Dude I'm just happy you finally got this all settled


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## Alberto7

crg123 said:


> Dude I'm just happy you finally got this all settled



This. Happy for you, dude!  Let us know once the ordeal is over, just to make sure the transaction got through!

I could always smash my own guitar anyway... whenever I learn the tactful and delicate art of shitting cash.


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## VigilSerus

codyblast said:


> I might use the refund to buy a cheap pawn shop piece of shit and smash that anyway, sorry to let you guitar gore fiends down ahahah



Aww, but it won't have the same flair as absolutely demolishing a piece of shit _custom shop_ hahaha. 

But at least they finally relented, maybe they are changing for the better. But fool you twice, shame on you. At least Ormsby is doing you a massive solid after having to deal with this clusterf***.


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## Alex Kenivel

Glad to see them take a step in the right direction in your situation. 

I hope they come through for you.


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## Slunk Dragon

That's honestly quite a shocker that they responded FINALLY, but hey, glad that things got sorted out for you, dude!!


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## oneblackened

Glad they actually responded and refunded you.


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## pushpull7

Hopefully, this is the end. Been a long journey.


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## jwade

Man, so happy for you! It's been an epic journey!


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## ormsby guitars

Excellent news!


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## OmegaSlayer

Wow...8 months.
And I thought only Italians were slow...


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## asher

Hopefully the money actually comes through.


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## Neilzord

Awesome news, Deserves a Congratulations!!!! 

Although Like many others I was kind of hoping to see this thing get smashed up good and proper!, But this is definitely the preferred outcome for you as you don't have to throw money away / smash money away in a video that would have been awesome. 



Look forward to seeing your Ormsby NGD in the future!!!


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## Lorcan Ward

codyblast said:


> Well good and bad news. They finally responded , with a prepaid shipping label attached to the email and are refunding the rest of the guitar! Which is great! However I can't smash it now (((((((((((((((((((
> 
> I might use the refund to buy a cheap pawn shop piece of shit and smash that anyway, sorry to let you guitar gore fiends down ahahah



Great to hear! In a lot of cases like this you just have to be persistent and show them you aren't backing down. Hopefully they smash it up their end when they realise how bad it is.


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## MetalDaze

Lorcan Ward said:


> Great to hear! In a lot of cases like this you just have to be persistent and show them you aren't backing down. Hopefully they smash it up their end when they realise how bad it is.



Unless they try to sell it to someone else!!


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## Nag

it's a refund, not a rebuild. I see it as "thanks to all the builds we messed up and since you're the only one who actually complained publicly, we have enough cash to pay you back. but we still don't have the skills to actually build you a playable guitar for the money you gave us"

call me a negative person


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## codyblast

Its funny how stressful situations can just be absorbed into your daily life, and how the phrase "you don't know what you've got till its gone" can apply to negative situations and things as well.

I shipped the guitar last week, and have just received the remainder of the refund.

19 months since I put my deposit down, (11 months build and 8 months since recieving it) I no longer have that eye sore and am back to where I started financially, having every dollar I gave them, back. And the sense of relief is actually overwhelming.

I've thanked the guys at Acacia for FINALLY making things right, they said that the guitar was not at all up to their standard and obviously due to a bunch of pressure at the time it mustn't have gotten a full QC check before leaving. I find that hard to believe, as Scott himself built this guitar over the course of 11 months so he would've known EXACTLY how it was. 

To their credit, they are owning up to their mistakes and want to clear any negativity from their name, so I hope anyone that may choose to do business with them in future has a far far better experience than I had.


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## codyblast

Also, let this thread serve as an example to customers and a warning to businesses.

If you give out a bad product and bad service. We will talk. People will know. 30,000+ people viewed this thread, for a start up that is insanely bad press. I have met guitarists from other countries who have seen this thread before meeting me.

And for customers, if you get ripped off or a lemon, TELL! If someone had done what I did about their own instrument before I did, I would've had a far less stressful 2 years and not spent several thousand on a dud. And if I didn't do what I did, theres no guarantee that I would've been made whole again.

Supply and demand, folks. We are the demand, we have the power.


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## Nag

I find it weird when I see how many guitar builders try to get away with shoddy work. forums, facebook and other social media can create or destroy a reputation in the blink of an eye, information goes all around the world super fast and knowledge spreads. People WILL look for f-ups and they WILL find them. And once you're listed as "don't deal with this guy, he's a scam" it's very hard to get idea to disappear from people's minds.

They admitted that they messed up and paid you back, so that's already a good thing. But the problem here is that the guy who built it said it wasn't up to his standards, see, that's the lie here. People fear that if they publicly say "yeah, we done goofed" they'll be out of business forever, when really it's the best thing to do. Just say out loud that you're conscious of what you did wrong, that you're gonna try to start again from scratch, and then do it. If you're honest, people will give you a second chance but if you stay shady, people won't be as eager for that. Just don't mess up again because of the same thing...

Now if they had accepted to rebuild your guitar on their costs to repair their f-up, delivering you a good guitar would have given them some credit back. Now they'll have to wait until someone else takes the risk to give them money again to prove that they can work correctly.

Good end of the story on your side, that's already a positive thing


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## Alex Kenivel

Congrats. Glad that's over with for you, although I bet they've left a taste in your mouth you'll never forget. 

Sticky this thread please.


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## Hollowway

Regarding it "not being up to our standards" I will say that, not knowing the first thing about the guys, I suspect it IS their standard. All these companies that say they are "turning things around" are all just BS. Not doing high quality work is a personality thing, not a business thing. Either you do perfect work or you don't. Think about people at work - there are those that constantly churn out high quality work, and those that don't. I don't care if it's writing software, building guitars or building a house. There are those that do quality work because at every step of the way they push for it and won't settle, and there are those that have lower standards. Have we EVER seen a company turn around from making crappy instruments to making stellar ones? I've been on this forum for 6 years and have not seen it once. The only way to do it is to replace the top people at the company, and in a luthierie business that means shutting the company down.


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## Lorcan Ward

^One of the contributing problems I'm seeing on Facebook is people are constantly going around posting that "XXXX has stepped up their game and releasing awesome instruments now". Wether its people being paid to post positive things or they are just copying what another sheep said it means people still order in the belief they will get a good instrument. 

I even saw someone say Strictly7 fired all their old staff and hired a whole new team of top luthiers to finish everyones guitars so everyone should order from them again.


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## jmeezle

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^One of the contributing problems I'm seeing on Facebook is people are constantly going around posting that "XXXX has stepped up their game and releasing awesome instruments now". Wether its people being paid to post positive things or they are just copying what another sheep said it means people still order in the belief they will get a good instrument.
> 
> I even saw someone say Strictly7 fired all their old staff and hired a whole new team of top luthiers to finish everyones guitars so everyone should order from them again.



S7 didn't fire their old staff... they quit. That's neither here nor there though, Jim is making good on his promises to not leave paid customers high and dry and is making the progress of builds visible on the S7 facebook page. They had huge QC issues in the past but I think he's finally getting his shit together.


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## Edika

Well one good thing came out of this ordeal, the OP is getting an Ormsby! Of course that could have happened with a lot less stress but nevertheless it's a very positive outcome!


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## Alberto7

Out of all these horror stories that go around this site, it's very refreshing to finally have one with a happy ending. In my eyes, the guys at Acacia are still very risky people to get financially involved with, but the fact that this ordeal ended as it did does speak for them.

I am really happy for you, Cody, and those are some wise words you wrote there.


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## Ben.Last

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^One of the contributing problems I'm seeing on Facebook is people are constantly going around posting that "XXXX has stepped up their game and releasing awesome instruments now". Wether its people being paid to post positive things or they are just copying what another sheep said it means people still order in the belief they will get a good instrument.



To be fair, even Halo is, by all accounts, putting out good guitars at this point.

That being said, I can see the beginnings of these issues in my guitar, which was from way before Acacia was having issues. Now, as I've said, my guitar is basic-I just wanted something that wasn't available otherwise-and there's nothing that makes it any less than a great guitar FOR ME. But, yeah, them saying that these problems were a case of not being up to their standards is a little questionable. I do hope they turn things around though.


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## Benjyy

This sucks so much!


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