# Another metal guitarist who wants to delve into something new...



## niffnoff (Feb 11, 2012)

Ok, so I've been playing 5 years and my main style is mainly Metal and Hardcore.

But for college I wanna kinda fit in with the Jazz and the Classical folks around who always want to jam, but I kinda don't wanna go around unleashing hell like riffs to them. So my question is...

What and where would be the best start for me to learn into jazz?
I wanna good starting point to go from.

The only real thing I know about Jazz is chromatics, time sigs, modulations are frequent and the progression II7 V7 I is used alot. That's about it 

Any help and suggestions will be very very appreciated!


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## Erazoender (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm in the same boat, so I'm monitoring this thread


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## StratoJazz (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm writing a reply, but i'm having trouble posting


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## StratoJazz (Feb 11, 2012)

This is what i'd probably do if i had to relearn how to play jazz.

*1.* 
Learn Basic Chord Grips and Voiceleading behind them. (These consist of drop 2 and drop 3 voicings with the root on the 5th and 6th strings. Voiceleading is where you try to keep similar pitches between certain chords.)
--An Example of voiceleading would be a G chord going to a C chord.
----G major consists of G, B and D. C consists of C, E and G. To voicelead, you would keep the G, B goes to C and D goes to E. 
---The primary goal behind voiceleading is to keep common tones between chords.
(It would be better if you read up on this. If you already are an expert, then disregard the whole thing about voiceleading.)

As guitarists, we primarily will be comping while other horn players solo. So having a good foundation in this area is extremely important.

*2.*
Learn your Scales and then learn a couple basic licks.

As far as scales go, learn all of the Following:

All 12 Major Scales(and their Modes)
All 12 Melodic Minor Scales (and their Modes)
All 12 Harmonic Minor Scales (and their Modes)
Symmetrical Scales (Half-Whole, Whole-Half)
Whole Tone

It's important to learn them in Open Position and along the strings as well. Also practice them with interval leaps. Doing this will help you recognize new ways to visualize the fretboard as well.

Be sure to learn some ii-V-I licks as well. These will help you to play over ii-V-I progressions, which is the most common chord progression in jazz. Learn a long ii-V and a short one. Then practice it in all 12 keys and in multiple positions.

*3.*
Listen to and Learn some tunes

This is probably the most important thing you could do. It's no use to learn the skills to play the music if you don't actually learn the standard jazz repertoire.

Here are some tunes i'd recommend you check out since your starting out:

Maiden Voyage - Herbie Hancock
So What/Impressions - Miles Davis/John Coltrane
Mr. P.C. - John Coltrane
Summertime - Gershwin?
Standard Jazz Blues (Look up Riff Blues)

When you get a handle on those try:

Take the A Train - Ellington/Strayhorn
Misty - don't know
Song for my Father - Horace Silver
Satin Doll - Duke Ellington
Standard Rhythm Changes (Look up I got Rhythm, Oleo)

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Hope this Helped, feel free to message me if you have any questions.

P.S. I had some links to other posts that i wanted to post here but the forum isn't letting me, if your interested i can message them to you.

-StratoJazz


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 12, 2012)

niffnoff said:


> ...college...folks around who always want to jam...



Surely, you must be mistaken. But really, learn some standards and a bunch of easy songs that everyone knows. I have a bunch of fake books in PDF form. PM me if you want some of them.


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## StratoJazz (Feb 12, 2012)

Once you get comfortable with the material above, i recommend you read:

*Hal Galper - Forward Motion:From Bach to Bebop*(In my opinion, the more appropriate way to teach jazz music.)

*Mick Goodrick - The Advancing Guitarist*(Excellent Book,definitely get throught the above material first. Can be intimidating.)

*Charlie Parker Omnibook*(Good resource for more ii-V-I licks. You can extract these from the tune heads and Charlie Parker's Solos. The heads to these tunes are very hard to play as well so they are also a great technical exercise. Besides, you've got to know them anyway when you play them with people)

*Jamey Play-Alongs*(There are a few of these that are really good, Stick to Volumes 1, 3, 42, 54, 76, 84. 76 and 84 are exceptional and Volume 54 has most of the tunes i've recommended to you to start with. IF you find you want more play-alongs, i recommend you obtain them *cough* by other means.) P.S. I've heard the Giant Steps, Countdown, Rhythm Changes in all 12 key play alongs are good as well. For now though, stick to tunes that are more commonly played and blues and rhythm changes forms.

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*Other Advice:*

*Get yourself a RealBook*
(Better yet, if you have a tablet or an iphone or ipad, get the realbook app. IF you can find Pocket changes that's excellent too you'll just have to know the melody. Usually, if you don't know a tune you'll be playing with some that will.)



SchecterWhore said:


> But really, learn some standards and a bunch of easy songs that everyone knows. I have a bunch of fake books in PDF form. PM me if you want some of them.



This is good advice, since most of tunes i mentioned above aren't usually called at gigs(With exception of Blues and Rhythm Changes based tunes you must know those song forms!!!!!). It can also be hard to know which tunes you should learn at first, here are few i think everyone should know:

All the Things You Are
Softly as in a Morning Sunrise
Milestones(New and Old, do a bit of reasearch, you'll get it)
Cherokee
Giant Steps(definitely save this for later,get a good grasp of bop playing first)
Body and Soul
What is thing Called Love?
I got Rhythm(Super Important)
Oleo
Autumn Leaves
Lady Bird(not to be confused with Lazybird, Lazybird = Hard)
Blues for Alice
Billie's Bounce
Maiden Voyage
So what(if you don't know this, well, then you fail at life)
All Blues(What aren't these?)
Freddie the Free Loader(OOOOHHHHH!! Looks like we've got an album here you should be listening too(Kind of Blue - Miles Davis))
Impressions(Learn it, or you Fail)
Triste
Blue Bossa

You also have to consider that the college your going to and the people you will play with will want to play a certain set of tunes(that i haven't listed here). If you're confused as to which tunes you should learn, learn the tunes everbody should know(All the things, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Etc.), and then learn the tunes all the guys you play and jam with are playing.

*Realize the Distinction between Time and Groove*

Time = Rhythm
Groove = Rhythm
Time doesn't = Groove

This is an illogical and a pet-peeve i have with the jazz world. When people tell your Rhythm sucks, they are usually referring to your sense of groove, not your time. If they tell you this one of two things is happening:

1. Your time actually sucks, and you should practice a passage or comping figure slower with a metronome or some time keeping device(like Band-in-a-Box!!!!)
2. Your syncopating and the people your playing with confuse it as beat 1(and they get off). This is really the most common thing. This mainly occurs with people you don't play with often. It also occurs you're used to playing in a 4-5 piece combo where you syncopate constantly. Then your put in a duo setting and the other guy gets confused because he can't figure out where one is.
3. Some people just won't like your sense of groove, which sucks. Others will love your sense of groove, so stick with the people you have success with. Yes, Groove is subjective.

*Chord Voices for Comping*

Avoid roots in your voicings when playing with a bass player. They've got that note down so you can add more tensions to your chords. When playing duo, with out a bass player or when the bass player is soloing, but roots back in.

Chord tensions are essentially added notes to chords here is an example

G7 is G B D F while G13 is G B E F

if you also notice the 13 replaces the 5th of the chord and generally

the 9th(2nd) replaces 1 (b9, Natural9, #9)
the 11th(4th) replaces 4 or 5 (b5 = #11, #5=b13 are common)
the 13th(6th) replaces the 5th

It's also important for you to become familiar with hearing chord tensions. While they might sound like shit at first, they become pleasing after a while. An excellent melodic use of tensions is Miles Davis's solo during So what on the album Kind of Blue. At a point in the solo he plays a C major idea over what is essentially a D minor 9 chord. I recommend you transcribe that solo.

*Try to graduate to playing a Phrase once you've got your licks down*

Something i've found i've been suffering from in my playing is overplaying my standard licks. While i've been outlining the changes on tunes like Giant Steps, Have You Met Miss Jones, Joy Spring, Round Midnight, and others, my playing has become very blocky.

Instead of my solos sounding smooth and effortless(like i think they do when i play rock/metal/jam shit)/ they sounded like this(this will be a visual representation)

Chord / Chord / ii V lick / Cont'd / Resolved / Chord / Chord / ii V lick / Cont'd / Resolved / etc.

While i think this is good when you're starting out(to be able to outline every chord change), graduating to playing longer more phrase like linear material is something that seperates the Pro-players from everybody else.

To get there, I've been practicing ideas from the Hal Galper Book i've recommended above. The goal as i understand it is to play a continuous 8th note line *THROUGH* the changes as opposed to just playing over them. 

As a supplement to this, i also have a copy of Pat Martino's Giant Steps studies. I find that these are a good technical exercise as well as being excellent linear material to play *THROUGH* the changes on tunes. Alot of it is bebop linear material over 3 tunes, Minority, LazyBird, and Giant Steps. He also provides examples of linear material in five different areas on the neck. Just PM and if your Interested in it. YOU CAN'T FIND OR BUY THIS ONLINE. 

Again, I'll Send this to you if you're interested. Just PM me.

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Anyway, hope this second post helps as well, i'll probably post more depending on how active this thread gets.

-StratoJazz


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## HOKENSTYFE (Feb 12, 2012)

Technical side apart, if you haven't heard TesseracT's song 'Ambient Sax Solo', check it out on YouTube. It may give you inspiration. Also Ihsahn's song 'Grave Inversed' off the After record, plus that record has a serious jazz influence. 

Turn that gain down, add that reverb & delay, brighten up that clean & sparkle and dazzle those that don't know the beauty of the guitar!

Good Luck!

Edit: An album from a few years ago, The Mass - City of Dis. This record may give you and the other jazz musicians a place which to center around as a unit! Jazz meets Slayer, quite interesting! Intense!


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## Gabe_LTD (Feb 14, 2012)

StratoJazz said:


> Once you get comfortable with the material above, i recommend you read:
> 
> *Hal Galper - Forward Motion:From Bach to Bebop*(In my opinion, the more appropriate way to teach jazz music.)
> 
> ...




You sir are beyond awesome, Just putting that out there...


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## rahul_mukerji (Feb 14, 2012)

I think *StratoJazz* has pretty much covered a lot of ground.

From personal experience, I did the following.


Listen to a lot of Jazz records. Every kind of Guitar Jazz from John Abercrombie, John Scofield, Pat Metheny, Holdsworth, McLaughlin, Tim Miller, Diorio, Biréli Lagrène. This will give you an idea of how people approach Jazz. And trust me each has their own voice and way of communicating their ideas.

Listen to some fusion like Derryl Gabel, Garsed, Alex Machacek and Tom Quyale. If you come from a metal rock background, their styles will be a good intro into how familiar scales coupled with slightly outside sounds can sound cool and "easily digestible". Listening to Mclaughlin right off the Pentatonic Band wagon might throw you off. 

Grab a book and familiarize yourself with Maj7, Dom7, Min7, m7b5 and Diminished chords. I spent a good couple of years just learning how they sound and fit into progressions. 

Being able to hear ii-V-I and its forms in arrangements is half the battle. If you can hear the changes, chances are you'll be able to play over them.

Once you have a grasp of the 7th chords you can play through progressions and then try your hand at playing over changes. Then study how Mike Stern would solo over ii-V-I as opposed to Benson.

This is basically where you can start playing with a band and really jam out.

After this is just the sickness called extensions and substitutions and altered dominant chords and an endless exploration of music which is only limited by time and desire. 

Hope that helps and wish you the best with Jazz. And let me tell you, its very addictive. Once you switch to listening to outside sounds its really difficult not to sneak a melodic minor line into your regular playing or hit a substitution while playing standard pop/rock progressions


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## niffnoff (Feb 14, 2012)

Indeed, Strato and Schecter have both sent me some interesting material over also. 

Thanks Rahul! 

And Gable, why did you quote Strato if you didn't add to it  was hoping for something added but nevermind


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## MartinMTL (Feb 16, 2012)

wow. Some amazing help here. Thanks!


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## Tesla_1989 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just throwing this out there. You may wanna look into musicians such as Lenny Breau. He's been fairly inspirational in my experience.


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## niffnoff (Feb 17, 2012)

To be honest I've been in and around alot of artists. 

Been looking mainly at Miles Davis as he's one of the big names I know. And also reading into the material Strat and Schec shown me. There's alot of ground to cover, but it kinda reminds me wheree I was when I wanted to first look for metal songs to learn 

anyway here's somethings I've been finding myself listening too and jamming.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZY87PDsnQ


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## in-pursuit (Feb 20, 2012)

1. learn how to build diatonic 7th chords in a single key
2. learn all the root position voicings for each of those 7 chords
3. get a fake book/real book/book book and start learning each song, playing it in one position on the neck using a variety of the chord voicings you've learnt. 
4. learn to play each song in all other positions on the neck, trying to stay in as small a fretspacing as possible while using a variety of voicings.
5. expand on the previous two steps using inversions of the chords you already know
6. start playing the same tunes, but allowing yourself to wander between different positions on the fretboard by utilizing the different voicings you've learnt, paying close attention to what tones are common between chords and choosing your voicings based on which voicings share the most common notes/have the smallest movements between individual voices in chord changes
7. change your name to "the jazz king"
8. -profit


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## KingAenarion (Feb 24, 2012)

The ONE thing in Jazz that will make everything make so much more sense I have always felt is to stop identifying chords and scales as different things.

They are the same things. 

This is how you understand modal jazz and construct complex chords in different keys.

If you can, sit in front of a piano. I assume you know about modes. The easiest one to play in is C for demonstration purposes. Play all the notes in the dorian mode. It's a sweet chord. Try taking certain notes out and learning about what degrees of the scales sound good in the chord.

As a rhythm player in Jazz this is just one of those things you inherently learn, but if someone had told me this when I was starting out, it would have ALL made so much more sense


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