# 2012 Olympia



## Uncreative123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Official stream: Bodybuilding.com: 2012 Mr. Olympia FREE Live Webcast, Sponsored By MuscleTech!


Now that men's pre-judging is done, I feel pretty confident making these predictions:

1) Phil Heath



2) Kai Greene
3) Dexter Jackson
4) Shawn Rhoden
5) Branch Warren
6) Dennis Wolf
7) Tony Freeman


Final judging is tomorrow night. Not sure what time. I'm guessing around 9pm (central time).

Was most surprised by Dexter Jackson. Nobody really blew me away though like Phil did last year. He's clearly going to win again this year though.


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## TRENCHLORD (Sep 29, 2012)

Fuck,,,,, I quit lol.

I think Heath takes it everrywhere except the upper arm. Mid-backs and legs fairly even though.


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## UnderTheSign (Sep 29, 2012)

I must admit I never really followed Olympia up until this year but your line-up looks pretty solid. Looking at the prejudging comparisons I wasn't too impressed with Branch tbh - or at least not compared to the other guys. Was kinda rooting for Evan as he seems like such a cool guy but he doesn't look on par with guys like Phil and Kai yet.

Agreed with Trench as well, Kai seems to have insane bicep peaks and a slightly wider back but Phil just looks better overall IMO.


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## danger5oh (Sep 29, 2012)

Their aesthetics are so different it's hard to judge. Phil is insanely symmetrical for his size, but Kai is a freak. Phil will win though... it's pretty much known that you really have to knock out the current Olympia champ if you have any hope of winning.


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 1, 2012)

Uncreative123 said:


> 1) Phil Heath
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looks like I was right, with the exception of Dexter Jackson and Shawn Rhoden being 4th and 3rd rather than the other way around.


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## ihunda (Oct 1, 2012)

I am a big fan of old school Mr Olympia, much more natural looking bodies even though they used steroids as well.
Makes you wonder what kind of heavy chemicals they are using today 

Here's a old Mr Olympia picture:


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## TRENCHLORD (Oct 1, 2012)

One big difference is that those guys in the 60s and 70s were likely not juicing as consistantly over decades like todays top amatuer and pros are.
There is also an improved sense of confidence when taking higher doses because of the advances in bloodwork analysis.
Far less oral injestion lessons liver breakdown as well.


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 1, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> One big difference is that those guys in the 60s and 70s were likely not juicing as consistantly over decades like todays top amatuer and pros are.
> There is also an improved sense of confidence when taking higher doses because of the advances in bloodwork analysis.
> Far less oral injestion lessons liver breakdown as well.




It's the technology that has advanced, not the dosages. Most notably with the introduction of GH and other peptides which were previously unavailable. It took everything to a new level. Peptides don't have to be 'cycled off' because they work differently than AS. In fact GH, IGF-1, insulin, GHRP, etc. all need to be ran for at least 3-6 months to start being really effective. You definitely need to be a little more careful with that stuff than AS. Not something to fuck with. And some of it isn't anything you should ever use unless you have aspirations of being a professional bodybuilder. 


I've heard a lot about top tier (Olympia level) Bodybuilders running really modest cycles. It's the IFBB up and comers who are using ridiculous amounts to try and get to that level. I remember seeing what Arnold ran back in the day and it was laughable by today's standards. I don't even think he ran PCT. A testament to his genetics.


Definitely doesn't have to be over 'decades'. I mean look at Phil Heath only 10 years ago:


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## TRENCHLORD (Oct 1, 2012)

^WOW. That's what i call progress.
Not only Phil, but progress of chemicals.
Being on AS cycles that augment what you're already on (GH and such) would account for the difference.


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## danger5oh (Oct 1, 2012)

Sure, chemicals play a part (obviously), but you've gotta give credit where credit's due. Not even a fraction of the meatheads getting chemical help at the gym look remotely like Phil. A friend of mine used to play ball with him when he was still living in WA, and according to him, that arm development you see in the pic on the left is purely from participating in normal sport-specific exercise and practice, and that during all of the time that he knew Phil, he had never seen him touch a weight, much less a syringe. Drugs and supplements aside, that is a tremendous amount of gain in only 10 years.

Not only have the drugs and supplements gotten better, or at least more efficient, but diet, adequate rest and therapy, and weight lifting knowledge in general have all advanced since the golden age of bodybuilding. I'm pretty sure there will be more guys like Phil Heath showing up to the Olympia with far less years of training under their belt in the near future.

And that classic pic is awesome... Franco, Serge, Sergio, Arnold, and Frank all on one stage. Pic of legends is legendary!


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## TRENCHLORD (Oct 1, 2012)

Oh yeah, training and diet science has developed as well.
Also, these days the upper-teir guys can make a good living off endorsements and such that it allows them to devote even more focus.


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## danger5oh (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm pretty sure I heard in an interview or video somewhere that Ronnie Coleman's mom and/or sister's full time job was to make his meals lol.


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## TRENCHLORD (Oct 1, 2012)

Loves that chicken lol. (I do too)


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## Tiger (Oct 1, 2012)

No love for juicers from my end, personally. : /

Just me though.


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## danger5oh (Oct 1, 2012)

Tiger said:


> No love for juicers from my end, personally. : /
> 
> Just me though.



To me, it is what it is. I don't agree with using, I never have used, but at the same time I don't really look down on those that do. For me it's more an ethical issue. For starters, it's illegal... and I for one wouldn't want to compromise myself for the sake of a hobby. For professional athletes, not just bodybuilders, I can understand the allure and temptation. As a working musician, imagine if you could take something that could take your playing skill to the next level... I'm pretty sure there would be more in the FS section than just guitars and gear .


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tiger said:


> No love for juicers from my end, personally. : /
> 
> Just me though.




So does this mean you look down on women who use birth control as well since Progesterone is a steroid? Do you shun every person (including non-athletes) who get spot-injections of corticosteroids to reduce inflammation? Or how about cancer patients, HIV patients, and people with anemia who use anabolic steroids to prevent muscle wasting so they don't die?
I'm sure you don't, so where are you drawing the line? Which "juicers" are OK in your book? Just women, the elderly, and those with debilitating diseases? 
So who is it not OK for? The opposite- young, healthy, men? And why? Is it because of the *good* they do? Increase muscle, strength, endurance, etc. 
So I have to ask- do you thumb your nose the same way at recreational drug users? Which I'm assuming make up nearly 70% of the population on this board. Why not? Those are far more dangerous and, outside of cancer patients who smoke marijuana, have absolutely no medicinal or beneficial/healthy relationship when it comes to using substances such as coke, heroin, mdma, ecstasy, 'shrooms' or pot. 

Lastly, regarding supplementation, I would really like for you to explain to me how using Creatine (which is produced in your body naturally) is ethically any different from using Testosterone (which is also produced in your body naturally).





danger5oh said:


> As a working musician, imagine if you could take something that could take your playing skill to the next level... .



There is- and they're called beta-blockers. Professional musicians use them all the time; Heavily used in orchestral/classical music settings. They're incredibly helpful in audition and performance settings. They block adrenaline and noradrenaline so you're less nervous and can focus more on your playing. But somehow that's not 'cheating'....




danger5oh said:


> For me it's more an ethical issue. For starters, it's illegal... and I for one wouldn't want to compromise myself for the sake of a hobby. For professional athletes, not just bodybuilders, I can understand the allure and temptation.




Illegal...unless you have a prescription. Or live in the UK or a handful of other countries. Do you have any idea how ridiculously stupid easy it is to get a prescription? It doesn't even have to come from an M.D. The legality is a complete and utter joke based on absolute non-sense- even more so than marijuana. And are you really going to sit there and tell me you've never drank underage or smoked weed or went over the speed limit? Your ethics are your ethics, but don't regurgitate these falsehoods and myths of how this is some ethical/cheating issue and how it involves "compromising" yourself or your body.

Bottom line- stats from the CDC (from 2006? I think) Alcohol killed 75,000 people; Tobacco 435,000; Anabolic Steroids- "3". I don't even know if those three were directly attributed either. Stat is listed in the bottom video.


Educate yourself:






***** And everybody should watch this one:


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## brett8388 (Oct 2, 2012)

Interesting take.


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## danger5oh (Oct 2, 2012)

Uncreative123 said:


> Illegal...unless you have a prescription. Or live in the UK or a handful of other countries. Do you have any idea how ridiculously stupid easy it is to get a prescription? It doesn't even have to come from an M.D. The legality is a complete and utter joke based on absolute non-sense- even more so than marijuana. And are you really going to sit there and tell me you've never drank underage or smoked weed or went over the speed limit? Your ethics are your ethics, but don't regurgitate these falsehoods and myths of how this is some ethical/cheating issue and how it involves "compromising" yourself or your body.



Whoa... relax Uncreative123... I think you're preaching to the choir. I'm sure most would argue, but Hawaii is actually a part of the US , which would make a few substances definitely illegal. And I've been in the competitive bodybuilding and powerlifting scenes for a while, so believe me, I know there are several different ways of getting gear aside from meeting some sketchy guy in a back alley somewhere, and some are legal and easy... the point I was making is that I personally choose not to go that route, but I don't judge those that do. As far as my ethics go, I usually compete in tested powerlifting events... which would make it cheating... and not only do I pride myself in promoting the natural side of both sports, but the main thing that I'm not interested in compromising is my job (with the illegal gear). I never mentioned any of the typical falsehood BS about it being bad for your health or other uneducated myths. Come on man, give me a little more credit than that.


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## Tiger (Oct 2, 2012)

Uncreative123 said:


> So does this mean you look down on women who use birth control as well since Progesterone is a steroid? Do you shun every person (including non-athletes) who get spot-injections of corticosteroids to reduce inflammation? Or how about cancer patients, HIV patients, and people with anemia who use anabolic steroids to prevent muscle wasting so they don't die?
> I'm sure you don't, so where are you drawing the line? Which "juicers" are OK in your book? Just women, the elderly, and those with debilitating diseases?
> So who is it not OK for? The opposite- young, healthy, men? And why? Is it because of the *good* they do? Increase muscle, strength, endurance, etc.
> So I have to ask- do you thumb your nose the same way at recreational drug users? Which I'm assuming make up nearly 70% of the population on this board. Why not? Those are far more dangerous and, outside of cancer patients who smoke marijuana, have absolutely no medicinal or beneficial/healthy relationship when it comes to using substances such as coke, heroin, mdma, ecstasy, 'shrooms' or pot.
> ...



Well yea. Theres tons of substances I could put in my body to make running 100 miles easier and faster, but what does it matter that I did it if my training regime was vastly enhanced by drugs? I couldnt win the tour de france that way, could I? 

It takes away from the journey, to me. It makes it easier. I've watched the pro steroid flick on netflix and I totally agree with it, cool. Steroids are in no way the devil. But fuck that for me. Do I care about juicer competitions? Nope. Doesnt impress me in the least bit.

And yes, I do thumb my nose at recreation drug users. I've never touched a drug or smoked a cigarette. I dont like drug users driving on account of having a family member dead from a user driving. I dont work in a typical environment in an office building or whatever, I work where that kind of flaky shit gets people killed. Therefore, no, I dont support recreational drug or alcohol use. Like I stated earlier, thats just my opinion.

Creatine? Let me eat a steak, sweet, creatine. I havent been able to buy any testosterone fruits in a while, so I cant attest to them.

Also, LOL on you writing an entire paragraph on my statement that was all based on your assumptions. You seemed kinda eager to share your knowledge of steroids.


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## danger5oh (Oct 2, 2012)

Tiger said:


> It takes away from the journey, to me.



Well said .


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tiger said:


> Also, LOL on you writing an entire paragraph on my statement that was all based on your assumptions. You seemed kinda eager to share your knowledge of steroids.




Right, because I have a lot of knowledge and you made an ignorant, bigoted statement. I asked you 20 different questions and rather than answering any of them you just went on about "cheating". You had nothing to say about women or cancer and AIDS patients, or people on TRT. So I guess they're still all "juicers" to you. Just a bunch of cheaters trying to not have kids and 'cheat' death. 
You do realize 90% of AS users are not professional athletes right? and neither are you. So lol @ talking about the tour de france as if it has anything to do with this discussion. I'm really curious to know how you define "cheating" when there's not even a competition?

Everyone's T levels are different. If someone has lower T levels than someone else is that fair? Or is it fair for the person with lower T levels to supplement that low T to bring it up to 'normal' levels and be on par with the other person? There are hundreds of thousands of people on TRT for life. Not just older guys either. Some of them taking GH too. Where are they on your list when they're just trying to 'even things out'. ...is that cheating?

I said your body produces creatine and testosterone. I didn't ask if you ate food. Your comparison was absolutely ridiculous. Your body produces both and your response to this was 'lol, derp, you can't eat testosterone'. Does your body produce steak or chicken? Because if it doesn't I don't know why you're bringing it up. We're talking about body systems and what the body does naturally. We're not talking about what you eat.


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## ihunda (Oct 2, 2012)

I love the debate here!

You know people who think sports without steroids or anabolic substances is more "fair" are fooling themselves. Sports are the most unfair thing ever, it's genetics first, hard work second.

Take me as example, I just run very very very fast although I never trained in my life. When I was in high school, I was winning all the 100 meters races even though I had an awful form and practicaly no training, that was entirely genetics (I am from the Comoros Islands, we run fast ).

Now all the school coaches wanted me to run so that the school would get medals and some "aura" but this was a sportsmanship joke.

Now fast forward 10 years, I've been doing a lot of martials art and witness some of the selection for Judo and Karate here in France and clearly it's all about selecting kids with the best genetics and then training them. How's that not unfair to the other kids????

Add some steroids and other enhancements, now it's a level playing field!

Well I don't truely believe that last sentence but I hope you got my point


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 2, 2012)

danger5oh said:


> Well said .




Really- was it? That's a really hypocritical statement for you to make considering just two posts ago you said "give credit where credit is due" in regards to professional BB'ers. You said it's not just gear that makes them big, it's hard work, genetics, etc. -insinuating that you can't just take a magical pill and BOOM you're a bodybuilder. I think we're all in agreement that "the journey" is hardwork and dedication which is required with or without the use of AS. 
But here you've essentially agreed that AS use means you don't have to work hard or be dedicated at all, which again is a myth perpetuated by ignorance. 

Participating in powerlifting competitions does not equate to knowledge of anabolic steroids. It's weightlifting vs. anatomy/physiology/chemistry.


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## danger5oh (Oct 2, 2012)

Hahaha... so true. Sports by design are meant to separate winners from losers, and not everyone is meant to win, I don't care how many participation trophies you want to hand out to the losers hahaha. That's the point of competition.


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## danger5oh (Oct 2, 2012)

Uncreative123 said:


> Really- was it? That's a really hypocritical statement for you to make considering just two posts ago you said "give credit where credit is due" in regards to professional BB'ers. You said it's not just gear that makes them big, it's hard work, genetics, etc. -insinuating that you can't just take a magical pill and BOOM you're a bodybuilder. I think we're all in agreement that "the journey" is hardwork and dedication which is required with or without the use of AS.
> But here you've essentially agreed that AS use means you don't have to work hard or be dedicated at all, which again is a myth perpetuated by ignorance.
> 
> Participating in powerlifting competitions does not equate to knowledge of anabolic steroids. It's weightlifting vs. anatomy/physiology/chemistry.



Dude... you're killing me. I'm only saying that's the stance that I take. It's more just a lifestyle choice. The bottom line is that I only do it as a hobby. For me, I just like to see how far I can go on my own. That's it. That's my own personal journey. I enjoy the fact that others assume that I've juiced. I further enjoy smashing guys on stage that do. Why? Because I know for a fact that I'm doing it solely based on genetics and knowledge of anatomy/physiology/chemistry. Do I still look up to guys like Ronnie Coleman? Absolutely. Do I think that Barry Bonds deserves the asterisk? Not at all. They've all earned their accolades by putting in hours of hard work. Just because I don't personally participate in something doesn't mean I'm against it. I don't really like Dream Theater's music, but Petrucci is still one of my favorite guitarists based on other factors, but you can't tell me I have to listen to DT or I'm not a fan. Go back and read all of my comments. Not a single one of them was contradictory, preachy, or judgmental. I'm a fan of the Olympia and bodybuilding. That's why I clicked on your thread. You're debating with yourself on this topic.


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## Tiger (Oct 2, 2012)

^ He has a solid history of really getting into his e-fights, dont sweat it.


Uncreative123 said:


> Right, because I have a lot of knowledge and you made an ignorant, bigoted statement. I asked you 20 different questions and rather than answering any of them you just went on about "cheating". You had nothing to say about women or cancer and AIDS patients, or people on TRT. So I guess they're still all "juicers" to you. Just a bunch of cheaters trying to not have kids and 'cheat' death.
> You do realize 90% of AS users are not professional athletes right? and neither are you. So lol @ talking about the tour de france as if it has anything to do with this discussion. I'm really curious to know how you define "cheating" when there's not even a competition?
> 
> Everyone's T levels are different. If someone has lower T levels than someone else is that fair? Or is it fair for the person with lower T levels to supplement that low T to bring it up to 'normal' levels and be on par with the other person? There are hundreds of thousands of people on TRT for life. Not just older guys either. Some of them taking GH too. Where are they on your list when they're just trying to 'even things out'. ...is that cheating?
> ...






Dude really? I never said I thought sick people didnt need it nor did I say steroids are bad. You'd have to be a retard to derive that from what I said. You're not a retard, are you?


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## danger5oh (Oct 2, 2012)

^ kinda figured :/

ANYWAY, in an attempt to get this thread back on track... who the hell is *Shawn Rhoden*? I've actually been out of the scene for a couple of years, but this guy looks pretty phenomenal. I googled his name and was kinda surprised that he has been competing for so long, but only got his pro card a few years ago. He's got very classic lines... reminds me of Flex Wheeler... and I'm actually surprised how well the judges placed him considering he doesn't really out-mass that many guys. Very refreshing to see, especially at the Olympia.


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## Aevolve (Oct 2, 2012)

I think it's pretty much established at this point that Uncreative has a way of starting this e-bickering on a regular basis as a fleeting attempt to eagerly prove to everyone how much more "knowledgeable" he is in every regard. 

Ignore and get the thread back on topic, shall we?


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## TREYAZAGHTOTH (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't mean to diss anyone, but I think a few points need clarification:

1) The steroids used to reduce inflammation are different from the anabolic steroids..we mainly use glucocorticoids for reduction of inflammation.
eg. methyl prednisolone, dexamethasone.
these steroids are NOT used for anabolism...or body building.

2) Drugs that are used to build muscle in a diseased condition is for therapeutic purposes...that is the patients need it for well being.

Anabolic drugs used for body building are NOT therapeutic.
The dosages used are not at all in the recommended range.

Needless to say there is an ethical issue.
That is why we physicians prescribe anabolic steroids to debilitated patients, who will lead a better quality of life and serve society better.

or in other words, the benefits outweigh the side effectsbecause the disease they have will leave the patient worse off.However these patients are monitored by doctors, so any adverse effect can be picked up and managed.

I do not think it is fair to compare body builders to sick patients.

Progesterone is no longer used in oral contraceptives...now a synthetic variant of progesterone is used, which is highly 'target' specific....meaning it targets the reproductive organs, while decreasing the systemic side effects.

FYI, the reason why pure progesterone was stopped was that it lead to unwanted side effects.

3) The issue gets complicated when people mix personal experiences with personal opinion.

There are quite a few articles at Pubmed which cite the adverse effects of anabolic steroids.
In fact an article published in April 2012 attributes four deaths to anabolic steroid abuse...in athletes.
Articles published at pubmed are peer -reviewed by people who are qualified to do so.
We don't get some dude, who is the editor of a muscle magazine giving his opinion on steroid usage.
( Just go to pubmed and type anabolic steroids)
I can provide the link if anyone is interested.

the videos attached to this post has many shortcomings:

1) they say that anabolic steroid users are all healthy...and they have blood workups to prove it...

Side effects of anabolic steroids include structural changes to viscera...something like plastic deformation to matter.
These changes cannot be picked up by blood tests alone.

2) In the third video, Dr. Charles Yesalis is interviewed. He has quite a few number of articles at Pubmed. A few of them highlight the adverse effects of anaboic steroids. Again I can provide the link if anyone needs it.

3) The be-spectacled guy is trying to asking the older bodybuilder for evidence for any long term side-effects( second video at 4:30).

Isn't it odd?..i mean who is the older guy? just because he has used anabolic steroids for a few decades, he is an expert?
2500 followups is he qualified to make a statement like that..?

3) The be-spectalced guy questions a doctor(dr Gary) about "i am looking for the science, that steroids are bad"..and then Dr. Gary goes on to say that there are no tell tale autopsy findings that co-relates the cause of death due to steroid abuse. The article at pubmed refutes that.


4) the statistic given about the number of deaths due to steroid useage is skewed..the reason being more people smoke and consume alcohol than people who do anabolic steroids.
So yeah there will be more people who die from smoking and drinking.

5) Using death as an end point of the side effect of a drug is naive..what about the morbidity that it causesfor example frequent temper tantrums or picking fights with others over silly issues ahem coughcough..

6) Anabolic steroids are no.142 in the list of drugs that are responsible for emergency room visitsanother skewed statistic.
Alcohol,cocaine, benzodiazepines (diazepam, clonazepam ,nitrazepam) etc are substances which are noo-tropic..they affect the higher brain, and are thus stress relievingand hence they are likely to be abused.

The abuse of anabolic steroids is for body buildingno one goes like dude lets get a few beers, smoke a couple of joints and do some DHEA so that I can get high

The other drugs in the list are commonly prescribed drugs warfarin (anti blood clotter )paracetamol, codiene (cough supressant) which are very commonly availableand are likely to be overdosed..the most common reason being for suicide.

In the end, to each his own.i guess.
But when we make a choice, our decisions should be based on an educated understanding of both the pros and the cons.
Finally if the pharmaceutical companies can make a killing of introducing new drugs (drugs to treat shyness in a three year old) and legalize it, why cant they do the same for anabolic steroids use in bodybuilding?

It is everymans wet dream to have a huge physique..so there is a huge market here.
Why hasnt it been legalized?

Regards
dinesh


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 3, 2012)

Tiger said:


> Dude really? I never said I thought sick people didnt need it nor did I say steroids are bad. You'd have to be a retard to derive that from what I said. You're not a retard, are you?




Stop being evasive. I asked you a very simple question that you still won't answer- where do you draw the line? If someone has a prescription for Testosterone Replacement Therapy- are they still a "juicer"? A cheater? Rather than answer to your own statement or retract it and bow-out gracefully admitting you made a stupid comment....you resort to name-calling. You called me a retard because you can't defend your position. You have no credibility on this matter whatsoever. You have no argument or even a valid statement to put forth. 

YOU chose to comment, nobody asked for your opinion
YOU made a bigoted and ignorant statement
YOU haven't defended it or retracted it
YOU have chosen to resort to name calling rather than answering any questions or having a logical informative debate.


...but I'm the one who started this "e-fight"? Maybe it's YOU who has a history of causing these problems. I don't see anyone else in this thread calling people names and throwing a fit except for you. If you want to have a discussion then lets have it. If you want to act like a child and call people names, take it elsewhere.


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 3, 2012)

PeachesMcKenzie said:


> I think it's pretty much established at this point that Uncreative has a way of starting this e-bickering on a regular basis as a fleeting attempt to eagerly prove to everyone how much more "knowledgeable" he is in every regard.
> 
> Ignore and get the thread back on topic, shall we?




You don't ever contribute anything worthwhile to any of these threads, ever. If you have something of worth to add to this discussion do it- or stay out of it. It's that simple.


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## Uncreative123 (Oct 3, 2012)

TREYAZAGHTOTH said:


> I don't mean to diss anyone, but I think a few points need clarification:
> 
> 1) The steroids used to reduce inflammation are different from the anabolic steroids..we mainly use glucocorticoids for reduction of inflammation.
> eg. methyl prednisolone, dexamethasone.
> ...





You've misunderstood some things, heavily misconstrued others, and flat-out lied about the rest. I don't have time to get to all of them, so I'll do what I can.

1) I never said corticosteroids or progesterone were the same as anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids can have far worse side effects than anabolic steroids- but they are LEGAL when administered by an M.D. and often used unnecessarily. Nobody ever mentioned using them for 'anabolism', only that athletes often use them to reduce inflammation (which was clearly stated) so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion or why you even brought that up at all. It was already clearly understood and stated.

2) Again, SAME exact thing for your #2 point. Already clearly stated, don't know why you even mentioned it as if it were a counterpoint. 
You go on to add that patients are monitored by doctors etc. as if bodybuilders aren't. Everybody I personally know that has used AS has always had regular doctor visits (just like in the videos that you tried to discredit); always gets bloodwork done (before, during, and after cycle); constantly monitors blood pressure (most even have in home BP meters). It was at this point that I started to become skeptical of your "credentials" (which was nothing more than calling yourself a physician- and lets be real, this isn't something most physicians are exactly up to par on being knowledgeable about) The longer the post went on the more your "facts" became rather than fact-based, with your whole "roid-rage" comment as well as at the end with not understanding pharma-companies. Did you take the Hippocratic Oath? It seems that some of your statements fly in the face of that creed. 


Your Progesterone statements are just....I don't believe for a second you're a physician. It's very clearly stated even on Wikipedia (I'll actually cite my sources rather than asking if people want them or not):

"The use of progesterone and its analogues have many medical applications, both to address acute situations and to address the long-term decline of natural progesterone levels. Because of the poor bioavailability of progesterone when taken orally, many synthetic progestins have been designed with improved oral bioavailability and have been used long before progesterone formulations became available.[41] Progesterone was approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration as vaginal gel on July 31, 1997,[42] an oral capsule on May 14, 1998[43] in an injection form on April 25, 2001[44] and as a vaginal insert on June 21, 2007.[45]"


Most orals have poor bio-availability creating the necessity for something better. There is nothing there about side-effects clamoring for its use to be discontinued. YES- the sideeffects are very real and can be harsh. Just because synthetic versions are used doesn't mean what you're trying to claim it means. What do you think Anabolic Steroids are? They're all synthetic derivatives of Testosterone. Some work differently than others, but essentially they have one main function. Just because one is called Boldenone and the other methandrostenolone, or is a longer or shorter estered version of Testosterone doesn't change the fact that it's still an anabolic steroid.



According to your source- 2012 attributed 4 deaths to anabolic steroids, where as tobacco and alcohol are still responsible for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of deaths each year, but you think the data is "skewed" because more people drink and smoke than use A.S. That is such an irresponsible statement it's not even funny. It is also easily refuted by using remedial math skills.

Let's assume 100 million people in this country (out of the 300 million that live here) smoke and drink. That is a VERY high estimate considering 1/3 of the populous is underage and not admissible, but we're giving you the benefit of the doubt. Going off the last stats I provided in 2006- 235,000 deaths from smoking and 75,000 from drinking= 310,000 deaths.

100,000,000/310,000= 322 and change. So 1 in every 322 people would die as a result from drinking or smoking.

So now, let's take your figure of "4" deaths. If it were on the same scale of being the direct cause of death as drinking and smoking that would only allow for 1,288 people to use anabolic steroids. I don't think I need to tell anyone that number is not even close to the amount of people that use AS. There's probably 1,200 IFBB pros alone. I'm sure your source is right in only attributing 4 deaths to steroid use- that is right on par for all the previous years, but again I already stated that and I'm not sure why you brought it up. I mean more people probably die from falling down the stairs than from AS use so I really really do not understand why you feel they are dangerous and unethical (when not prescribed by a physician lol) when 4 deaths a year are being reported. 


I won't even go into your weird analysis of the videos- which again the way you stated it coincides with what I've already said. I will however say YES- DO POST YOUR SOURCES. You said one or two of the doctors from the videos (whose opinions you disagree with? I think?) are also quoted in your article...so you're giving them credibility there, but then discrediting them because they appear in that video? It's just so non-sensical. I actually need to read it for myself to even know what you're agreeing with or disagreeing with. A lot of what you said were things that were already stated clearly or implied to be understood. 


Your temper-tantrum comment is really what discredited everything you had to say. You really really just do not understand what you are talking about. Those kind of comments- again, not on par with the Hippocratic Oath. 
I've never met anyone on AS with a "rage" problem, but anytime I go downtown on weekends I ALWAYS see people with alcohol-rage problems. 




Your last comment about "why hasn't it been legalized if there's such a big market for it"? Short answer- IT HAS BEEN. Testosterone Replacement Therapy is legal and really easy to get on. Oh and it IS legal in the UK and INDIA. Aren't you from India? How do you not know this? Even if you didn't want to go that route- welcome to the world of supplements. A massive BILLION dollar industry which apparently you're blind to. How often do we hear about products getting pulled from the shelves? Most notably- pro-hormones. Pro-hormones were/are legal to buy at any GNC or Complete Nutrition. Pro-hormones are also far more destructive than anabolic steroids and to add insult to injury you have idiot salesmen selling them to kids who have no idea what it will do to their bodies. I can't tell you how many stories I've read about kids under 21 who end up on TRT because they used pro-hormones they bought over the counter and had no idea what they were doing or using and it ended up destroying their endocrine system and putting them on TRT for the rest of their lives. How is THAT legal?



Who are you to discredit all the PHD's, Endocrinologists, phisios, etc. in those clips? You call bodybuilding a "wet-dream". You are not a physician, not in this country anyway and your standards would never be accepted here.


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## Edika (Oct 3, 2012)

I was going to write a long comment about the whole situation but it's not worth it as it will add more fuel to the fire. I will say on thing though. 

Uncreative123 chill out man. 

People are entitled to their opinion and taking a hostile stance never leads to a discussion just name calling and yelling. The original thread was about the Olympia competition and you guys have derailed it into a squabble about performance enhancing drugs.

Personally I find this body modification excessive and it surpasses the actual function of exercise, to stay healthy. If this is the way some people can give meaning to their existence and differentiate themselves from other people then it's their choice. even if I don't agree with it.


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## Tiger (Oct 3, 2012)

Uncreative123 said:


> Stop being evasive. I asked you a very simple question that you still won't answer- where do you draw the line? If someone has a prescription for Testosterone Replacement Therapy- are they still a "juicer"? A cheater? Rather than answer to your own statement or retract it and bow-out gracefully admitting you made a stupid comment....you resort to name-calling. You called me a retard because you can't defend your position. You have no credibility on this matter whatsoever. You have no argument or even a valid statement to put forth.
> 
> YOU chose to comment, nobody asked for your opinion
> YOU made a bigoted and ignorant statement
> ...



Why are you asking me if an individual needing AS medically is a juicer...? Weight lifters who compete and use AS are the juicers we are talking about. Not sure why you are even asking...?

Maybe being evasive is your way of perceiving me not having a clue why you're asking random questions.

So much e-rage from your end.


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## Aevolve (Oct 3, 2012)

Uncreative123 said:


> You don't ever contribute anything worthwhile to any of these threads, ever. If you have something of worth to add to this discussion do it- or stay out of it. It's that simple.



Yes sir, because flying off the handle and flaming, even harassing anyone that doesn't share your opinion of something makes you such a profound source of contribution.

Let's take a thread that's supposed to be discussing the results of a competition and turn it into a raging AS debate, because that's ALSO constructive.

Please.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 3, 2012)

*Oh look another mucked up thread. 

This isn't just on Uncreative123, a few other folks in here should probably be banned right now. Don't kick the beehive folks. Next time you'll be getting the hammer just as hard. *


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