# So Gaga wants to meet with Obama about bullying



## Rev2010 (Sep 23, 2011)

Lady Gaga wants to meet with Obama over bullying - Yahoo! News

OK, this outrages the living shit out of me. She's a singer (and I withhold my opinion of her as it's not relevant to the discussion)... what gives her the idea that she automatically deserves audience with the president, who mind you, probably has other issues on his agenda and probably couldn't fix bullying any better than he's fixed anything else!?

Sure bullying is awful and should be dealt with... but god damn stop with creating more and more laws for each and every separate instance of everything!!! Bullying should fall under harassment and if there's a physical altercation involved then also under assault. There is NO need for separate "bullying" laws. This country is getting so far out of hand it's downright scary.


Rev.


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## pink freud (Sep 23, 2011)

Obama should meet with her and then when she is done with her spiel say, "Look, I agree with you, but you should really talk to congress about this. They are the ones who create laws. Didn't you ever see School House Rock?"


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## synrgy (Sep 23, 2011)

I get a bigger kick out of the WWE's anti-bullying campaign:

WWE Corporate - The Creative Coalition and WWE Launch Anti-Bullying Alliance

As if it isn't known and well publicized that the company's owner is one of the biggest bullies ever to bully in the history of bullying. 

Anyway, back on OT, I agree that this is stupid, and I'm upset by the idea that there's really no way out: If he sees her, he's "wasting time when he should be fixing x or y", but if he doesn't see her, he's "discriminating" or "supporting bullying", or however the talking head of the day chooses to frame it against him. By the mere act of suggesting the meeting, Gaga has forced POTUS into a lose-lose situation.


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## murakami (Sep 23, 2011)

hey, if lady gaga went to my school i'd probably bully her too. she acts like an idiot.

the president's time is valuable and clearly that boob doesn't see anything beyond her own priorities. if she wants a meeting with him, she better respect him by wearing proper and ethical business attire as well.



> Anyway, back on OT, I agree that this is stupid, and I'm upset by the idea that there's really no way out: If he sees her, he's "wasting time when he should be fixing x or y", but if he doesn't see her, he's "discriminating" or "supporting bullying", or however the talking head of the day chooses to frame it against him. By the mere act of suggesting the meeting, Gaga has forced POTUS into a lose-lose situation.


 
if she claims he doesn't care about bullying he can say, "bitch, we owe trillions of dollars to china! china is going to fucking bully us if i don't do something!"


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## pink freud (Sep 23, 2011)

murakami said:


> hey, if lady gaga went to my school i'd probably bully her too. she acts like an idiot.



Pretty sure you would have tried to get in her pants, just like I would have:


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## murakami (Sep 23, 2011)

pink freud said:


> Pretty sure you would have tried to get in her pants, just like I would have:


 
i saw her highschool picture and that aint it


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## synrgy (Sep 23, 2011)

Not my type, but I wouldn't have said no if she'd propositioned. 

*edit* oh, and the photo posted before mine really is her, from a yearbook collage of photos of her, but it was clearly a Glamour Shots sort of thing. She had the wavy hair in all the other photos.

*edit #2* Source: http://www.blippitt.com/pics-of-lady-gaga-in-high-school-surface-photo/


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

Bullying laws won't do shit, you need to tackle the root cause of the bullying. Homophobia. Xenophobia. All that needs to be addressed. You should change people instead of changing the punishment.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 23, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Bullying laws won't do shit, you need to tackle the root cause of the bullying. Homophobia. Xenophobia. All that needs to be addressed. You should change people instead of changing the punishment.



^^ This man is smart!!

And this is Gaga natural now:











No... I wouldn't do her 



Rev.


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## Blind Theory (Sep 23, 2011)

I was bullied throughout school. The way I see it, no bully law will ever stop it. There will always be a dark corner with no one around but you and some asshole, there will always be a push over teacher who will hear a comment but let it slide, etc, etc, etc...you can't stop it. Bullies feel power when they do what they do. People like power. In a lot of cases these bullies come from broken homes where they are constantly put down as well. The solution is never going to be bullying laws. The solution is in the home. That is where it starts. If your parents raise you well at all you won't do it.


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## MFB (Sep 23, 2011)

Or maybe, if we educate the kids about bullying and such so that we won't NEED separate laws that waste the President's, and everyone else's time, SHOULD he meet with her; then we'll be making some progress and the problem will iron itself out.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 23, 2011)

I honestly think the problem is lawyers are writing all these laws to keep income flowing in and fund the greedy legal institution. I work for a law firm and we have a partner that wrote 2 books on the legal system being out of control and over-legislation.

Now if bullying laws come into effect it won't just be a school/parents/police issue, now there will be lawyers involved and suing for large sums of money!! All of which the lawyer gets his income from. So lawyers jump on this type of opportunity to make further laws to keep their big checks flowing in. Call me a nut but I wholeheartedly believe this.


Rev.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I honestly think the problem is lawyers are writing all these laws to keep income flowing in and fund the greedy legal institution. I work for a law firm and we have a partner that wrote 2 books on the legal system being out of control and over-legislation.
> 
> Now if bullying laws come into effect it won't just be a school/parents/police issue, now there will be lawyers involved and suing for large sums of money!! All of which the lawyer gets his income from. So lawyers jump on this type of opportunity to make further laws to keep their checks flowing in. Call me a nut but I wholeheartedly believe this.
> 
> ...



You're probably right. I actually recently started studying a bit of law on my university course. These guys make ridiculous amounts of money, even if the compensation the people who instigated the case only received a small amount (Lawyers can receive hundreds of thousands while the claimant can only get say $10,000 in comparison, far less than the overall costs). 

Imo we should be turning less to the law to deal with disputes, and more to common sense. We should be addressing issues as a society, and taking these things into our own hands if possible (without stepping into the realms of vigilantism). If we could do that, I think people would be more understanding and society in general would be more savvy.


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## murakami (Sep 23, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I honestly think the problem is lawyers are writing all these laws to keep income flowing in and fund the greedy legal institution. I work for a law firm and we have a partner that wrote 2 books on the legal system being out of control and over-legislation.
> 
> Now if bullying laws come into effect it won't just be a school/parents/police issue, now there will be lawyers involved and suing for large sums of money!! All of which the lawyer gets his income from. So lawyers jump on this type of opportunity to make further laws to keep their big checks flowing in. Call me a nut but I wholeheartedly believe this.
> 
> ...


 

great, now we'll have people suing the schoolboard and have even less money for education. in my area, teachers go on strike ALL the time or at least once a year. i know how much they make and it's not bad. they are just greedy pricks... makes a whole lot of sense when the teacher cares more for their paycheck and not for the children's education... which results in degeneration in youths; which is happening now


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## Xaios (Sep 23, 2011)

This is the biggest problem I have with celebrities. And truth be told, it's not even their fault, but rather the people who elevate them. For some reason, people are obsessed with the opinions of celebrities despite the fact that said celebrities aren't anymore qualified to give their opinions on a given subject than you or I. For example, this. What, if any, indicators exist to say that Lady Gaga is some kind of expert on the subject of bullying? Probably nothing, but because she's become famous through some endeavour that is completely unrelated to the topic, her voice is given more credence than the rest.

I'm not saying her cause isn't noble, but just because someone is a succesful musician doesn't mean we should give anymore of a shit what they think on other topics than anyone else.


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## MFB (Sep 23, 2011)

Xaios said:


> I'm not saying her cause isn't noble, but just because someone is a succesful musician doesn't mean we should give anymore of a shit what they think on other topics than anyone else.



Actually, this is a double-edged sword because in one sense, you have "Well, they're a big time celebrity, they don't have to deal with this stuff, so why should we take their advice on it?" However, at the same time you have to remember they WERE young just like you were, and may have dealt with it and might still be dealing with it - albeit a different manner, ie hatemail etc... - so it kind of humanizes them too.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 23, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I honestly think the problem is lawyers are writing all these laws to keep income flowing in and fund the greedy legal institution. I work for a law firm and we have a partner that wrote 2 books on the legal system being out of control and over-legislation.
> 
> Now if bullying laws come into effect it won't just be a school/parents/police issue, now there will be lawyers involved and suing for large sums of money!! All of which the lawyer gets his income from. So lawyers jump on this type of opportunity to make further laws to keep their big checks flowing in. Call me a nut but I wholeheartedly believe this.
> 
> ...



This is actually a large part of the reason lawyers created legalese. You have hire one just to understand what the fuck the law is saying.


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## murakami (Sep 23, 2011)

AxeHappy said:


> This is actually a large part of the reason lawyers created legalese. You have hire one just to understand what the fuck the law is saying.


 
that is so true that it's not even funny


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

Completely. The legal system, and in fact many consumer relation services too are deliberately made so complex that anyone trying to achieve justice often give up eventually.


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## Xaios (Sep 23, 2011)

MFB said:


> Actually, this is a double-edged sword because in one sense, you have "Well, they're a big time celebrity, they don't have to deal with this stuff, so why should we take their advice on it?" However, at the same time you have to remember they WERE young just like you were, and may have dealt with it and might still be dealing with it - albeit a different manner, ie hatemail etc... - so it kind of humanizes them too.



I'm not saying that they can't know anything about the subjects that they're advocating, just that many people will believe practically anything a celebrity says on any topic and accept it as gospel truth, regardless of whether or not what they're saying is actually correct. For example, if I told you that stem cell research was morally wrong, you'd probably ignore me and form your own opinion on the subject, as you should. However, if Lady Gaga said that stem cell research was morally wrong, thousands of people would then base their opinion on the topic around what she said, simply because she's a celebrity.


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## MFB (Sep 23, 2011)

Xaios said:


> I'm not saying that they can't know anything about the subjects that they're advocating, just that many people will believe practically anything a celebrity says on any topic and accept it as gospel truth, regardless of whether or not what they're saying is actually correct. For example, if I told you that stem cell research was morally wrong, you'd probably ignore me and form your own opinion on the subject, as you should. However, if Lady Gaga said that stem cell research was morally wrong, thousands of people would then base their opinion on the topic around what she said, simply because she's a celebrity.



Ah yes, idol worship is the worst


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## GuitaristOfHell (Sep 23, 2011)

The amount of common sense from the OP and a few users here give me hope for humanity.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

Xaios said:


> I'm not saying that they can't know anything about the subjects that they're advocating, just that many people will believe practically anything a celebrity says on any topic and accept it as gospel truth, regardless of whether or not what they're saying is actually correct. For example, if I told you that stem cell research was morally wrong, you'd probably ignore me and form your own opinion on the subject, as you should. However, if Lady Gaga said that stem cell research was morally wrong, thousands of people would then base their opinion on the topic around what she said, simply because she's a celebrity.



Doctors are preparing for thousands of parents to refuse HPV vaccinations after Michele Bachmann claimed that someone had come to her saying her daughter had been retarded by the vaccine. There was no proof of this, and yet she's made an idiotic statement to get at a candidate rival. Now parents may refuse this vital drug on the basis of this woman's lie. Idolising can be dangerous.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 23, 2011)

Goddamn There's some angry people in here, and some pretty ignorant opinions. 
How many of you have been mercilessly bullied based on your sexuality or religious beliefs? It's more than simply harassment.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Goddamn There's some angry people in here, and some pretty ignorant opinions.
> How many of you have been mercilessly bullied based on your sexuality or religious beliefs? It's more than simply harassment.



What opinions are you referring to chap?


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 23, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> What opinions are you referring to chap?


I don't mean ignorant in a bad way, I mean that some people are talking without having all the information. Im not supporting this gaga/obama thing, just throwing a different opinion into the ring.
The fact that bullying laws don't do anything. We got rid of the laws up here, and there's basically no punishment for it anymore. And you can't really change these people's opinions, they shriek and screech at you if you try to reason with them. It's rampant, out of control and sadistic. It cuts to the core. And there's really nothing we can do anymore, lest we get sued by the bullyer.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> I don't mean ignorant in a bad way, I mean that some people are talking without having all the information. Im not supporting this gaga/obama thing, just throwing a different opinion intomthe ring.
> The fact that bullying laws don't do anything. We got rid of the laws up here, and there's basically no punishment for it anymore. And you can't really change these people's opinions, they shriek and screech at you if you try to reason with them. It's rampant, out of control and sadistic. It cuts to the core. And there's really nothing we can do anymore, lest we get sued by the bullyer.



I see what you mean. If you have no laws in place at all to protect someone from harassment then yeah you have a problem. I would expect there to be some basic laws to help people being bullied. I know you can take action here but kids are often too scared to do so.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 23, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> I see what you mean. If you have no laws in place at all to protect someone from harassment then yeah you have a problem.



The problem is, we are so hell bent on an all or nothing approach to this that no one can effectively take a middle ground.


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## signalgrey (Sep 23, 2011)

here you go. This is my opinion on the topic.

"I'm mystified by the laziness of people looking at how she presents herself, and somehow assuming that implies there's a high level of intelligence in the songwriting. Her approach to image is really interesting, but you listen to the music, and you just hear glow sticks. Smart outlets for musical journalism give her all this credit, like she's the new Madonna &#8230;" She breaks off and laughs. "Although I'm coming from a perspective of also thinking Madonna is not great at all. I'm like, fair enough: she is the new Madonna, but Madonna's a dumb-ass!"

furthermore:

"I may have contradicted myself. My problem isn't actually with Lady Gaga. But there's not much in her music to distinguish it from other glossy, formulaic pop. She just happens to wear slightly weirder outfits than Britney Spears. But they're not that weird - they're mostly just skimpy. She's fully marketing her body/sexuality; she's just doing it while wearing, like, a 'fierce' telephone hair-hat. Her sexuality has no scuzziness, no frank raunchiness, in the way that, say, Peaches, or even Grace Jones, have &#8212; she's Arty Spice! And, meanwhile, she seems to take herself so oddly seriously, the way she talks about her music in the third person, like she's Brecht or something. She just makes me miss Cyndi Lauper." 
-Joanna Newsom

basically Lady Gaga does shit for attention. This is one other thing she is doing for attention. Anything to keep the focus of how actually mediocre she is. 

The President dosent prevent bullying, especially not in school.Shit, TEACHERS have a hard time curbing bullying in school. Clearly she wasnt bullied in school or she would know how that works. Getting jumped before or after school and "trap" areas where teachers are in the blind and ass kickings can be done. Its the schools responsibility to make their environment thug free. 

Its nice to sound noble, its another thing to actually do something about it, and its another thing to actually have dealt with it.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 23, 2011)

Yeah, I agree that this is supremely stupid.


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## murakami (Sep 23, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> I don't mean ignorant in a bad way, I mean that some people are talking without having all the information. Im not supporting this gaga/obama thing, just throwing a different opinion intomthe ring.
> The fact that bullying laws don't do anything. We got rid of the laws up here, and there's basically no punishment for it anymore. And you can't really change these people's opinions, they shriek and screech at you if you try to reason with them. It's rampant, out of control and sadistic. It cuts to the core. And there's really nothing we can do anymore, lest we get sued by the bullyer.


 
don't worry, no one thinks bullying should not be punishable. i think everyone here truly believes that it is a major problem and wish for
something to happen. however, our main problem is with lady gaga being a representative of this cause. her music, and some of the things she says in interviews etc... are the things i would ridicule another person myself because it's encouraging people to behave like a skank/idiot etc... and not care about it.

heres a quote from that retard;

"When you make music or write or create, it's really your job to have mind-blowing, irresponsible, condomless sex with whatever idea it is you're writing about at the time."

fuck, if had a daughter i wouldn't let her listen to this shit. i'd rather her listen to cannibal corpse and look at their covers than her fucking hooker clothes.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2011)

She's a bit of a whore imo, albeit a talented one.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 23, 2011)

Just to clarify, I don't disagree with anyone in here, I just think that both extremes of this situation offer no real long term solution. Probably should have phrased that better.
Goodnight gentlemen.


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## Blind Theory (Sep 23, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Goddamn There's some angry people in here, and some pretty ignorant opinions.
> How many of you have been mercilessly bullied based on your sexuality or religious beliefs? It's more than simply harassment.



I've been bullied for my size because I am skinny.
I've been bullied for my religious beliefs because Christianity isn't cool apparently.
I've been bullied through verbal harassment that sometimes gets extremely personal.
I've been bullied physically.

I've been bullied for as long as I remember. This is why I agree with your *last* sentiment. It is SO much more than harassment. There have been points where I didn't like myself because of what others have said to me. I knew they weren't true but shit carries further than a lot of people think. I am guilty of bullying because of being bullied. You get put down so much it makes you do anything to feel a little better about yourself. It can have serious mental, physical and emotional consequences. It took me a long time to be able to shut it out of my mind and be able to work on improving my self esteem. So while I agree something needs to be done, I also understand that no law is going to fix it. Hence why I said the solution is found in the home.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 23, 2011)

"Everyone has a voice..." 

Some ppl feel they can take this as far as they want bc of the First Amendment and I guess to an extent they're right, but I really think a lot of these artists need to get over themselves. They're not as deep or revolutionary as they think.

Remember this? 

"Bush doesn't care about black ppl! I love fish sticsk!"


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 23, 2011)

On bullying... I think bullying is interesting when you really think about it. The bully usually does what he/she does bc they don't like themselves. Their actions serve only too make someone else feel the way they do. So clearly the reality of the situation is that the bully must either envy or look up to you in some way if they feel the need to bring you down to the way they feel on a consistent basis. Thus logically it makes no sense for you to hate yourself when in reality someone else is more or less admitting that they see you as some sort of measuring stick.

I know that this isn't an easy viewpoint to adopt when you're the bullied person, but I feel that if it were a sentiment that were expressed more often it could help more people cope with this type of thing.


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## Church2224 (Sep 24, 2011)

The people posting in this thread are the reason I love this forum so much...

I am getting sick and tired of all of these celebrities trying to get involved in a lot of these political issues. Who cares what they think? People need to think on their own stead of listening to these celebrities...

And with the economy down the toilet, millions who have lost their jobs and maybe millions will loose more, a deficit that is absolutely FUBAR, Social Security in jeopardy, health and medical concerns that need to be addresses, and Lady Gaga wants to have the president sit down and talk to her? Get over yourself, you are just one person, MILLIONs more need the attention of our government. She needs to get over herself...

As for bullying, I have been there, badly, and my sympathies go out to those who have been victims of it in middle school, high school and college. Been sucker punched a few times, kicked in the groin a few times more, threatened, insulted and made fun of for being conservative, Christian, middle class and liking metal, (Even though I went to a Catholic school) And when you have a few anxiety and obsessive disorders you are already insecure, scared, and worrying as it is, it all makes it unbearable. 

Instead of laws for bullying we need to attack the core problem it self. We need to focus on issues with individual students with their own personal problems so they do not use their peers as "outlets" so to speak. A lot of these bullies are insecure themselves and have their own issues, so why not focus on those concerns, then work from there...

Also as somewhat radical as it seems, we need to teach kids to stand up for themselves. Sometimes when these kids do defend themselves from bullying they in turn get an equal OR GREATER punishment. Why can we not defend ourselves anymore without offending some one I have no clue...

But seriously if I came home and found out my child was suspended because she stood up to a bully and fought back in self defense I would be proud of him/her and fight the school to the death about the issues. 

Sometimes these bullies will back off if someone stands up to them. Maybe not all the time, but it can help. That is how it all ended for me, I finally had enough and stoop up to this hockey player who said I was a piece of shit. After I told him what I thought of him, well, he backed off and had a new found respect for me. 

Like I said it may not work all the time, but we should be encouraging our kids to stand up for themselves. Sometimes going to the teachers and administration makes things a whole lot worse....do not ask how I know...


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 24, 2011)

I do think celebrities can be important in highlighting issues. People are more likely to pay attention to a celebrity rather than a politician, and the fact we've even debating this topic shows Gaga has succeeded in making people think about how we treat bullying. 

There do need to be strict anti-harassment guidelines that should cover bullying and harassment in general not just at school but work places etc (bullying still happens after school life). If those are solid, then you can cover a wide range of cases and makes bullies responsible. As Colin/Guitarman700 pointed out, his state has no laws for this at all in which case you definitely have a problem. I would expect some sort of legal protection for bullying victims to be a given, hence I objected to further laws as if what you have already doesn't work then you probably aren't tackling the issue itself correctly.


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## kung_fu (Sep 24, 2011)

As some people have mentioned, bullying isn't something that will ever go away. Rather than throwing money at and/or creating laws to curb bullying, i believe time would be better spent if time and effort was put into counselling for victims of bullying and just ensuring that kids in general have a sense of self-worth. The fact is, i was bullied by various people growing up. It wasn't anything as bad as a full blown daily beating, but did consist of physical and verbal assault and intimidation to a degree severe enough to make me feel unsafe whenever a grownup wasn't present. I was a target for several reasons, particularly that i was smart, small, and too timid to ask anybody for help. Sure, there were rules in place to prevent bullying (essentially laws) but as you know all of the best criminals are always a step or two ahead of the law anyway. If you told a grownup, they might intervene and force an apology or punish the bullies somehow, but that only worsens things as you know have a humiliated bully on your hands. This compounds the problem, as the bully probably had self-esteem issues anyway and now his self-image is made worse. The second the punishment ends, he's back to his old habits, sort of like if you snitched on a criminal (which is what they would be if actual laws are enforced). Guess who they're gunning for once they've "flown the coop"? Are we going to have to have victims placed in the witness relocation program?

The main thing that gives bullies incentive to do their thing is the self esteem boost that they get by seeing their victims faces as they see them intimidated. Harsher penalties are simply ignoring the main causes of the problem; curing the disease by killing the patient. If bullies had greater self-esteem, they wouldn't need to bully. If the victims had greater self-esteem, they would have better tools to cope with bullies.

I should add that with respect to extreme cases of bullying (particularly cases leading to deaths/suicides), the bullies should indeed be prosecuted...though behavior of this case is already covered in most places under harassment laws anyways. It could also be hard to prosecute bullies, as a bully can basically be as far ranging as someone who beats you up to someone who calls you a "fag" once as these are all things that get someone in a bad enough mental state in which they might contemplate suicide. Would there be 1st degree/2nd degree/ 3rd etc bullying charges? Regardless of what the legal repercussions become, at least those who pushed him to this extreme have to live with this on their conscience for their entire lives. If that isn't enough to change someones attitude, I'm not 100% convinced that time in juvenile hall will make any difference. Either you are remorseful or you aren't


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 24, 2011)

Bullying isn't always done because someone has low self esteem and wants to make themselves feel better. Some people are cunts and just like taking the piss out of people.

The kid that inspired Gaga to go on this little mission commit suicide because he was bullied about his sexuality. He tried to get help from many people but was ignored. As is often the case, the warning signs are there people just refuse to act. This is a failure of society, teachers and parents, not of the law and must be dealt with accordingly. Students need to be able to get help with bullying and know that something will be done about it (more than a stern telling off). Many times kids go and try to get help, nothing really gets done and the bullying intensifies because they told on them. Bullying victims need to have confidence that something will be done, because they're often afraid to begin with.


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## chronocide (Sep 24, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> I do think celebrities can be important in highlighting issues. People are more likely to pay attention to a celebrity rather than a politician, and the fact we've even debating this topic shows Gaga has succeeded in making people think about how we treat bullying.





It's a little saddening that the opinions of celebrities might often be held above those of experts in whatever field, but if someone brings an important issue to light, I don't really care who they are.

Furthermore, if you are in a position where people will take notice of what you say and you might be able to be influential on a subject you are passionate about, you have a duty to try and bring it to the public and governmental eye.


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## kung_fu (Sep 24, 2011)

^^^^
(vampire)
Totally agree. I didn't mean to imply there was only one cause _or_ one solution to bullying (i was sort of just riffing), though one needs to ask "why are these bullies being such cunts". The answer surely isn't "because they_ are _cunts. Cunts act cunty" there is probably some other issues at play, whether self-esteem based, societal/moral flaws or whatever. A law or heavy punishment might indeed be successful in curbing behavior, at least temporarily, but like you said I wouldn't have felt comfortable going to an authority figure unless i knew something would be done to fix things on a more permanent level. Rather than the half-assed dressing down given to bullies by authority figures that i spoke of, both bully and victim need some sort of further attention given to their respective side of the problem. Law or no law, _most_ bullies probably know that what they are doing is wrong and would hate it if the shoe were on the other foot. Those that know this usually only need minimal correction, but those that don't...i suppose could benefit from seeing large deterrence's put up. Not sure any new laws are needed though, just proper classification of current bullying crimes -> assault, abuse, battery, etc. not "bullying" as it is just another word for assault anyway


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## kung_fu (Sep 24, 2011)

I should add that i despise Gaga, but it's great seeing her making news for something important rather than "OMG...she's wearing a hat made out of dildos. GEEEENIUUUUS"


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## Rev2010 (Sep 24, 2011)

chronocide said:


> It's a little saddening that the opinions of celebrities might often be held above those of experts in whatever field, but if someone brings an important issue to light, I don't really care who they are.



Just for the record, I didn't intend to imply by posting this thread that celebrities opinions are negligible nor that they should stick to their profession and not do something to help with current issues such as this. My point was that she tweeted, "I'm going to meet with Obama" to discuss bullying and how to deal with it - which you know means via legal methods 99% of the time cause what else would Obama do for this??

The fact that she stated this without even having setup an actual appointment is pure arrogance, and simply thinking that just because she's a famous pop singer that she should deserve audience with him disgusts me. That and the fact that she thinks the president needs to be involved with this which I find ridiculous. 

And as mentioned of course this usually leads to more legislation. Soon we'll be spending millions in legal trial waste just trying to define if someone's charges should fall under bullying or a hate crime. "I'm a black kid and this white kid beat me up" - well gee... is that a hate crime now or bullying cause they went to the same school? It's just getting way way out of hand. Again, good for her to want to do something, but she's a fucking idiot for going about it this way.

Heck, I think her simply spouting her acceptance rants during her concerts probably help more people to face bullying then anything the president could do.


Rev.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 24, 2011)

I think it's cool that she's attempting to do something. Even though it may be considered misguided, it's cool to see someone doing something with their celebrity status. The issue with Gaga is the poor chick can't win for losing. If she shuts up and sticks to music she a "talentless hack without a brain blah blah" and if she tries, seemingly because she really cares it's "dumb ugly bitch is just stupid and takes herself to seriously blah blah".

On a topic like bullying I don't think laws will help but it will take many solutions to conquer the overall problem which is very huge. Whereas some might not agree with what she's doing, she's doing SOMETHING, not just with her music and message, but actually trying to, if nothing else, use the publicity to get people to talk about it.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 24, 2011)

^^^ I think you missed the point a bit. Read my post right before yours. 


Rev.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 24, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> ^^^ I think you missed the point a bit. Read my post right before yours.
> 
> 
> Rev.



I wasn't commenting on anyone's particular point. Just on the topic of her attempt.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 24, 2011)

I just find it hypocritical that she has a to be honest, quite slutty image with the typical grinding up against guys half naked thing and tries to be a role model for young girls. If Adele had done this I'd be more behind her because she is a better role model imo. She's not as sexually charged and relies on her talent. Plus she's more attractive imo. Bigger girls ftw.


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## Pooluke41 (Sep 24, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> . Bigger girls ftw.












But Seriously, Lady Gaga Was amusing at first, And Now she's become this Large Attention Whoring Entity, Much like a Hipster,





And as Everyone else has said, You can't go to the Government to stop Bullying, It doesn't work...


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## Rev2010 (Sep 24, 2011)

Pooluke41 said:


> And as Everyone else has said, You can't go to the Government to stop Bullying, It doesn't work...



It even sounds funny saying it right!? - "I'm gonna go to the government to talk about bullying" LOL

Also it's funny cause our government is a bully itself. 


Rev.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 24, 2011)

I was the really skinny kid with the huge head growing up, bully fucking magnet.

What did I do when I got bullied? What everyone and the media tells you to do... I beat the shit out of kids... 

Unfortunately that got me kicked out of the specific school in the 4th grade xD

But uh, the bullies ended up victims of me... and I never bullied anyone. People just need to learn to handle their shit better.


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## Origin (Sep 24, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I honestly think the problem is lawyers are writing all these laws to keep income flowing in and fund the greedy legal institution. I work for a law firm and we have a partner that wrote 2 books on the legal system being out of control and over-legislation.
> 
> Now if bullying laws come into effect it won't just be a school/parents/police issue, now there will be lawyers involved and suing for large sums of money!! All of which the lawyer gets his income from. So lawyers jump on this type of opportunity to make further laws to keep their big checks flowing in. Call me a nut but I wholeheartedly believe this.
> 
> ...



Not to mention how many people will out and out lie or go overboard with something (ie everyone in every lawsuit ever...not really but you know what I mean ), so more bureaucracy, more money out of normal people's hands into that of the one who whines the most, and nothing actually getting done. Huzzah.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Sep 25, 2011)




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## Guitarman700 (Sep 25, 2011)

Violence is not the answer here, dude.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 25, 2011)

I dunno, every bully needs to be beaten the shit out of at least once. Pretty sure it will make them look at things differently.


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## Blind Theory (Sep 25, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> I dunno, every bully needs to be beaten the shit out of at least once. Pretty sure it will make them look at things differently.



Sometimes assertion does work. This guy had been bullying me and another friend because we were smaller than him. He said we wouldn't do anything. He kept walking by us hitting us in the head so we got up and made him stop. He also had just had surgery on his elbow so threats and "attempts" at injuring that elbow shut him down quickly. Sometimes you just need to get physical. Otherwise your message won't get across. It's as simple as that.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 25, 2011)

Once my friend was getting bullied, so I threw a skipping rope around the bully's neck and dragged him across the playground. Didn't get bothered by him again.


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## murakami (Sep 25, 2011)

bully' are pretty simple. thye pray on people hoping that they will not retaliate. they're looking for a specific reaction so they can continue their bullying. if they get a reaction of confrontation, it will stop. 

i remember in high school there was this dumb shit, who talked to shit to me but only when his friends were around. at the time, i was boxing and nobody knew since i was skipping out on class to do it. after i noticed him making snide remarks, i was actually training to fuck him up real bad and made that my motivation to train harder. so one day i went up to him when his friends weren't around and i said, "whats your problem with me?" to which he replied, "i am just joking, man. chill." it's funny because i hadn't even gotten to the part that i wanted to fight him.

i wanted to punch him there and then, but the time had passed. after that nothing happened. it's strange that he wanted to be my friend afterwards though. every conversation he tried to have with me, i gave him the notion i wasn't interested in what he was spewing.

confontration is the ultimate weapon against bully'. ignoring them aint going to do shit and having someone else fight your fucking battles isn't going to work either e.g. the government. 

this is the schoolboards job and they don't do shit because they don't care. they really have to screen these teachers and weed out the ones who're just looking for a job. i remember in my elementary school days my teachers were very passionate about teaching. a better connection with the students as well. i think bully' are easy to notice and if the teachers really cared they would step in themselves.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Sep 26, 2011)

what ever happened to good parenting?


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 26, 2011)

ShadowFactoryX said:


> what ever happened to good parenting?



This.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Sep 26, 2011)

seriously, all these kinds of issues can be solved if parents would step up and do their job.

you find out your kid a bully? why dont you take a look at what you do that makes him act out (they get their traits from you!). then set him (or her) down and teach him to show others respect, no matter what, take necessary steps to imprint this thinking into their life

find out you kid is being bullied? teach your kid to learn how to deal and adapt with these people, they'll always exist, and show that they usually act out to compensate for how bad their own life is. 

i got bullied on occasion when i was in school
i learned to fight with words.

example: one time in wood shop (9th grade?) this fat redneck kid, thought he was funny, kept making smart remarks, and one day he said the wrong thing
i snapped, got loud with him, told him how the only reason he makes fun of other people is because they weigh less than him, and he's a miserable waste, so he takes his time insulting others to try and make himself feel better, and look cool to everyone else.

no one laughed that time

when you break people down to their basics, and expose them, its hard for them to react, because they know how true it is

never had an issue with that kid from that day on

i never got in a physical confrontation, i was taught to avoid that by all means, and i learned how to carry my own with words

who do i have to thank: _my parents_


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 26, 2011)

Countless times I've seen the parents of problem children and it starts to make sense. Idiocy breeds idiocy.


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## Jontain (Sep 26, 2011)

Often a bully is more insecure than those they are bullying, which is why a bully often backs down when someone confronts them. They are not big nor strong, physically or mentally which is the exact reason they bully to make themselfs feel the above.

...Gaga wants to speak to obama about this, ok so where is her politcal training and why should her word matter any more than any one elses. I hate how people can become famous and influencial if enough money is just thrown their way for the crap they produce instead of becoming famous for something truely 'worth' being 'famous' for.

This world is so fucked.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 26, 2011)

She wouldn't have made herself look anywhere near as stupid if she had instead said that she wanted to speak with *Michelle* Obama about it. 


Rev.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Sep 26, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> She wouldn't have made herself look anywhere near as stupid if she had instead said that she wanted to speak with *Michelle* Obama about it.
> 
> 
> Rev.



cause that would have been just as effective


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 26, 2011)

ShadowFactoryX said:


> what ever happened to good parenting?


 
It's now left up to public schools...


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 26, 2011)

ShadowFactoryX said:


> cause that would have been just as effective


 
Michelle Obama is a scary lady if she wants to be and I'm pretty sure it's not really about getting something done anyway. It's about "increasing awareness." She'll probably sit down and have a chat IF either party even agrees. And they'll televise some small portion of that meeting where it seems like they're "really getting to the heart of the issue." Then nothing will change bc you can't get rid of bullies, bigots, criminals, etc or anyone you disagree with. They're simply always going to exist... You might just call them something different as time goes on.


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## synrgy (Sep 26, 2011)

In summation: PR stunt is PR stunt. Moving on...


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 26, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Michelle Obama is a scary lady if she wants to be and I'm pretty sure it's not really about getting something done anyway. It's about "increasing awareness." She'll probably sit down and have a chat IF either party even agrees. And they'll televise some small portion of that meeting where it seems like they're "really getting to the heart of the issue." Then nothing will change bc you can't get rid of bullies, bigots, criminals, etc or anyone you disagree with. They're simply always going to exist... You might just call them something different as time goes on.



I agree. Although I do think it was smart of her to do it, IF the intent was to get people talking about it. Yeah it's a PR stunt but it's got a guitar forum discussing it and many others around the world, so the bullying topic hasn't been swept under the rug. Not saying she did it for that reason but if she did, smart move.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 26, 2011)

ShadowFactoryX said:


> cause that would have been just as effective



Of course not, but at least we know it wouldn't be wasting the presidents time and it wouldn't carry such a high degree of arrogance 


Rev.


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## Blind Theory (Sep 26, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Countless times I've seen the parents of problem children and it starts to make sense. Idiocy breeds idiocy.



Seriously! I was at a park one time and this little kid, couldn't have been older than 4-5, started flipping me and others off and saying things like, "Fuck you asshole" for no reason at all. I thought it was funny but I went and informed his grandma because that was all that was there. Her response..."his mom isn't very strict. It isn't his fault she just isn't good at parenting."  Then it hit me, the grandma obviously was a horrible parent, and leading by example as most parents do, turned her daughter into a horrible parent...the cycle will continue forever in that family


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## Xaios (Sep 27, 2011)

Someone needs to remake that Lord of the Rings GIF. Boromir should say "One does not simply walk into the White House." Lady Gaga should then say "Um... Yes you do."


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## Mr Violence (Sep 27, 2011)

She's going to bat for this because she was requested to by the friends and family of a young gay high school kid, Jamey Rodemeyer, who committed suicide.

This hasn't been noted by many of the posts.



While I'm not sure government can do anything about bullying, her intentions may be heartfelt or a PR stunt, but to ignore this kid and his family would've been a bad move on her part, so I don't think she's crazy.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

Mr Violence said:


> her intentions may be heartfelt or a PR stunt, but to ignore this kid and his family would've been a bad move on her part, so I don't think she's crazy.



While your sentiments might be hearfelt or a PR stunt I still say she's crazy!

All joking aside, what would this world be like if every time a drunk driver killed someone, a kid committed suicide over being bullied, a person was beaten into a coma over their skin color, a person was killed for liking a certain type of music, a person got shot from a stray bullet during a gang shootout, a woman was raped, etc etc etc etc someone went to the president or got lawyers and politicians involved?

This is the way the world is going. Personally, I think the family's help and input could've probably helped the kid to rid himself of the idea of suicide. Not blaming them, I don't do the blame game. Problem is EVERYONE else plays the blame game and it always seems the parents are 100% faultless in this kind of circumstance.


Rev.


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## Rick (Sep 27, 2011)

Late to the party here. And she's hoping to accomplish what by doing this?


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> While your sentiments might be hearfelt or a PR stunt I still say she's crazy!
> 
> All joking aside, what would this world be like if every time a drunk driver killed someone, a kid committed suicide over being bullied, a person was beaten into a coma over their skin color, a person was killed for liking a certain type of music, a person got shot from a stray bullet during a gang shootout, a woman was raped, etc etc etc etc someone went to the president or got lawyers and politicians involved?
> 
> ...


 
After reading your post, first of all I agree. But looking at it in that light makes this look like a PR stunt 100%. If she was asked to do it, it would reflect poorly on her in the public eye to disregard such a request. Someone who relies on the public for their livelihood would be wise to mind the opinions of the public. Or completely disregard them and still sell records if you're a white guy with a knack for putting words together creatively...


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## murakami (Sep 27, 2011)

Mr Violence said:


> She's going to bat for this because she was requested to by the friends and family of a young gay high school kid, Jamey Rodemeyer, who committed suicide.
> 
> This hasn't been noted by many of the posts.
> 
> ...


 

hmm... i wonder if that student was a fan of hers and she might feel guilty that he may have been bullied for listening to her popish music(aside from being gay that is. lets face it; in high school if you're gay, you're green lit and i mean no humour in that).

i don't like her very much. i think she makes ignorant, over dramatic statements at times, but if she takes this seriously then i will support it.

however, knowing it's her i doubt she'll be taking this in a formal fashion.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Mr Violence said:


> She's going to bat for this because she was requested to by the friends and family of a young gay high school kid, Jamey Rodemeyer, who committed suicide.
> 
> This hasn't been noted by many of the posts.
> 
> ...



Exactly. This thread makes me violently angry. how many of you have been bullied becuase of your sexuality? Show of hands? Yeah, it's fucking brutal, I've been through all of it, it cuts you like you wouldn't know. So maybe, I dunno, step off a little bit. This poor kid was bullied to the point of suicide, to the point where he felt so goddamn alone that he took his own life, something I can relate to. This isn't "Ha Ha boys will be boys" Shit here, this is a hate crime, and should be treated as such.


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## tacotiklah (Sep 27, 2011)

Blind Theory said:


> *I've been bullied for my size because I am skinny.*
> *I've been bullied for my religious beliefs because Christianity isn't cool apparently.*
> *I've been bullied through verbal harassment that sometimes gets extremely personal.*
> *I've been bullied physically.*
> ...


 

I've been bullied for all of those things as well as:
- Being too fat. (was skinny as a kid, then just exploded sideways)
- Being bisexual (bisexuals get shit from both the gay and straight communities. We get bullied by straight people for obvious reasons, and we get it from the gay community because we are all supposedly whores and that we're "secretly gay and want to use the term bisexual because it's 'safer'" and that we just need to "pick a side")
- Being Half Deaf (who get shit from both the hearing and deaf communities)
- Coming from a very poor and broken home


Do I think we need to legislate bullying? Yes to some degree. But I feel that we don't necessarily need a whole new law. We just need to rework the harassment laws that we currently have on the books. Also, I feel that we should rework laws to be more lenient in terms of criminal actions against those individuals that can completely prove they were forced into using force to defend themselves from bullying. Much like how no charges are filed if self-defense can be proven. Obviously there's many grey areas there that need to be worked out, but that's why I said that we need to rework them. Hell, the grey areas that are currently in place allow people to bully and harrass the hell out of you, the police can't do a damn thing about it, and any personal attempt to defend yourself can land YOU in jail, instead of the person bullying.


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## tacotiklah (Sep 27, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Exactly. This thread makes me violently angry. how many of you have been bullied becuase of your sexuality? Show of hands? Yeah, it's fucking brutal, I've been through all of it, it cuts you like you wouldn't know. So maybe, I dunno, step off a little bit. This poor kid was bullied to the point of suicide, to the point where he felt so goddamn alone that he took his own life, something I can relate to. This isn't "Ha Ha boys will be boys" Shit here, this is a hate crime, and should be treated as such.


 
My hand is raised. That's for goddamn sure. Why the hell do you think my previous band (re: see sig) fell apart?


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> My hand is raised. That's for goddamn sure. Why the hell do you think my previous band (re: see sig) fell apart?



Yeah man, I think it's just you, me and two or three others, that I know of. 
I didn't know about the band situation, I'm sorry to hear that.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Exactly. This thread makes me violently angry. how many of you have been bullied becuase of your sexuality? Show of hands? Yeah, it's fucking brutal, I've been through all of it, it cuts you like you wouldn't know. So maybe, I dunno, step off a little bit. This poor kid was bullied to the point of suicide, to the point where he felt so goddamn alone that he took his own life, something I can relate to. This isn't "Ha Ha boys will be boys" Shit here, this is a hate crime, and should be treated as such.



I understand that bullying is fucked up. But you can be bullied for any number of reasons. I understand "fat kids" have it pretty goddamn rough too. I knew kids that got bullied bc they were "late bloomers" and maybe their voices didn't change as quickly as the rest of the guys. Or maybe one guy is a little smaller than the rest of the guys so the big guy has to go fuck w/ the little guy to show he's big... The list goes on and on. Fuck... In some places ppl will kill you for being different. They don't even give you a chance to do it yourself.

Not to sound like an asshole, but what makes homosexuals so special? It happens to everyone and the severity doesn't peak at homosexual bullying. Everyone always wants *their* struggle to be the toughest one.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I understand that bullying is fucked up. But you can be bullied for any number of reasons. I understand "fat kids" have it pretty goddamn rough too. I knew kids that got bullied bc they were "late bloomers" and maybe their voices didn't change as quickly as the rest of the guys. Or maybe one guy is a little smaller than the rest of the guys so the big guy has to go fuck w/ the little guy to show he's big... The list goes on and on. Fuck... In some places ppl will kill you for being different. They don't even give you a chance to do it yourself.
> 
> Not to sound like an asshole, but what makes homosexuals so special? It happens to everyone and the severity doesn't peak at homosexual bullying. Everyone always wants *their* struggle to be the toughest one.



Because being anything other than a heterosexual is still considered taboo, and people are regularly ostracized for it. Homosexuals and Bisexuals are regulary shunned by whole communities simply for what they are. So yes, it's a little more "Special" than just being fat, which you can change. Just because it happens in "Some places" means we shouldn't address the issue? Whoever said anything abot this being a struggle contest? Not sure I follow your logic here, man.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Exactly. This thread makes me violently angry. how many of you have been bullied becuase of your sexuality? Show of hands? Yeah, it's fucking brutal, I've been through all of it, it cuts you like you wouldn't know. So maybe, I dunno, step off a little bit. This poor kid was bullied to the point of suicide, to the point where he felt so goddamn alone that he took his own life, something I can relate to. This isn't "Ha Ha boys will be boys" Shit here, this is a hate crime, and should be treated as such.



Dude you are so way off base and are still missing the point. This shit is a fact of life and will NEVER EVER fully go away. Our society is becoming way over-pacified. No one is saying people should ignore this type of thing. You seem too be missing the point that this is NOT a matter for the president. You are behind it cause you had a bad experience, I've had tons and in my much younger years had a bully at one point as well in my life. I grew to kick ass and was never bullied again. Not saying that is always the solution, I'm saying do you think everyone with bad life experiences deserves to see the president and discuss creating laws to punish those that upset them? 

Then what happens if we have laws for bullying and several other various issues and someone commits suicide? Cause it will still happen. Wake up. 


Really.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

I didn't say it was a struggle contest, it just seems that people are trying to act like bullying a homosexual is in any way worse than bullying anyone else for any other reason. The bottom line is that you're doing something to make someone else feel bad about themselves. The reason doesn't matter. 

Peep it...

When my sister was in elementary school and I was roughly 13 years old there was a group of white children that would follow them home and harass them for no reason. So my mother requested that I walk them home so that the kids might just leave them alone. It didn't work. They still did it and one of then even called me a ...... to my face--a seven year old child...

The girl then proceeds to go home and tell her mother that I attacked her. With nothing to go on but an untouched little girl's imaginary story, the parents called the cops and fairly soon after I'd gotten home that day police were SWARMING my house. 

They were in the front yard knocking on the door and windows...

They were in the backyard climbing the fence to knock on my basement sliding glass door.

They were climbing my deck to knock on that door and try to peep in as well.

I peeked out a window upstairs and noticed 5 or 6 squad cars, 2 police SUVs and a paddy wagon... All this for a 13-year-old boy that they can't even prove was guilty? Or was it because I was the "big black boy"? You have no idea how often I'm guilty until prove innocent for that fact alone.

Call it a stretch if you like, but that at age 13 is fucking terrifying and it comes across very strongly as bigoted bullying. A lot of white people where I live act that way and some will even openly tell you they feel that way.

Just the other day wasn't there a thread about a man that dragged a from a fucking car simply for being of another nationality? Oh right... We all go through shit, man.

Mind over matter. That's the reason anyone in here that's been bullied hasn't killed themselves like the kid discussed in the OP. Then again my father has been telling me since before I could understand words that you can overcome all obstacles with "strong will, strong faith, strong mind..." Granted that's what we call *guidance*....


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> Dude you are so way off base and are still missing the point. This shit is a fact of life and will NEVER EVER fully go away. Our society is becoming way over-pacified. No one is saying people should ignore this type of thing. You seem too be missing the point that this is NOT a matter for the president. You are behind it cause you had a bad experience, I've had tons and in my much younger years had a bully at one point as well in my life. I grew to kick ass and was never bullied again. Not saying that is always the solution, I'm saying do you think everyone with bad life experiences deserves to see the president and discuss creating laws to punish those that upset them?
> 
> Then what happens if we have laws for bullying and several other various issues and someone commits suicide? Cause it will still happen. Wake up.
> 
> ...


Where the fuck did you get that from my post? Things won't ever change? Jesus, it's people like you that drive kids like this to suicide.
I never said it was a matter from the president. try actually, you know, reading my post next time.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> . The reason doesn't matter.



Yes, it does. This isn't something we can change, so it won't just go away when we lose weight, or our voice breaks, to use your example.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Who cares? Someone is going to disagree with what you do no matter what. Why would you want to change for these ppl? Fuck them!

"This will all go away when..." When you stop letting ignorant fucks dictate how you feel about your self.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Who cares? Someone is going to disagree with what you do no matter what. Why would you want to change for these ppl? Fuck them!



I don't want to change, I'm saying that it's something that we'll carry with us the rest of our lives. You can lose weight, you can get a deeper voice, but when a mob of people surround you and threaten you with death becuase of your sexual orientation? (to use an example from my life) It's a lot worse because society is telling you what you are is wrong, will always be wrong. Can you not understand how that hurts? That these people often have no one to turn to, and are convinced by religious bigots that they are evil and wrong? It's not just bullying, it's bigotry. I never said that I thought lady gaga going to the president was a good idea, but society's attitudes about this need to change.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Where the fuck did you get that from my post? Things won't ever change? Jesus, it's people like you that drive kids like this to suicide.
> I never said it was a matter from the president. try actually, you know, reading my post next time.



Oh really, but you said this thread makes you "violently angry". Funny how you now accuse people of my character as being responsible for this kids suicide. It shows you're still *blaming* others. If someone kills themselves it's their own doing. Some can handle things better than others. That one college student killed himself after being videotaped making out and having it uploaded on YouTube. From what I recall that was the only one instance and he wasn't violently bullied daily. So are those kids responsible for his *death*? Sorry, but I don't think so. They should be punished but I don't think any of them thought he would kill himself. 

LOL, I can't believe after what I said you pointed blame at "people like me". Seems I had you figured right. 


Rev.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> Oh really, but you said this thread makes you "violently angry". Funny how you now accuse people of my character as being responsible for this kids suicide. It shows you're still *blaming* others. If someone kills themselves it's their own doing. Some can handle things better than others. That one college student killed himself after being videotaped making out and having it uploaded on YouTube. From what I recall that was the only one instance and he wasn't violently bullied daily. So are those kids responsible for his *death*? Sorry, but I don't think so. They should be punished but I don't think any of them thought he would kill himself.
> 
> LOL, I can't believe after what I said you pointed blame at "people like me". Seems I had you figured right.
> 
> ...


You really don't fucking get it, do you? You had me figured right? You don't know a thing about me. You're just another bigot, as far as I'm concerned. Do a little research about this case, maybe, I don't know, get some perspective. Besides, that post doesn't even make any sense. Coherence, how does it work?


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

People get bullied all the time for things they can't change. That's why you learn to love yourself and say fuck what everyone else has to say about it. YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE IN HISTORY TO HAVE GONE THROUGH SOME BULLSHIT FOR SOMETHING YOU CANT CHANGE. 

And just because you lose weight or get a deeper voice doesn't mean that having been bullied for it isn't something you carry with you. That's what we call a life experience... You know... The things that shape who we are. We carry them ALL with us. Stop being emo.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> People get bullied all the time for things they can't change. That's why you learn to loe yourself and say fuck what everyone else has to say about it. YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE IN HISTORY TO HAVE GONE THROUGH SOME BULLSHIT FOR SOMETHING YOU CANT CHANGE.
> 
> And just because you lose weight or get a deeper voice doesn't mean that having been bullied for it isn't something you carry with you. That's what we call a life experience... You know... The things that shape who we are. We carry them ALL with us. Stop being emo.


Where did I say I was the only one? You're reading things I didn't type.
I'm not being emo.
Jesus christ, whatever. You win, you completly understand my position and what I've been through, and whatever I say on the subject is negated becuase everyone else is bullied too.


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## murakami (Sep 27, 2011)

lets calm down, peoples. everyone has a valid point and i don't think anyone here should take it personally.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Plenty of ppl get bullied for being different. Sadly a lot of animals do this. I've seen the equivalent of bullying in lion populations against inbred lions with birth defects. It gets to the point that they sometimes kill them or come damn close. It's sad, it's unfortunate, but it's nature. No one said it was right or that you're wrong for feeling strongly about the subject, but your posts just sound whiney. Those who spend too much time dwelling on the past never grow.

So ppl bully you. Are you gonna let it get you down forever or are you going to rise above that bullshit and move the fuck on with your life? By being a depressed little bitch you're giving the bully what he wants hence part of the reason they continue doing it. The other reason is that they don't like themselves and feel the need to bring you down to that level bc they see you as an easy target. Don't be that easy target. 

Perhaps I was just lucky to have been born of VERY strong minded parents that talked to me about the things that were going on in my life and guided me appropriately. I just really hate when people wanna play the damn victim all the time. "But you don't know how I feel!" Well I'm not you so technically I never will. 

"It's called SELF esteem for a goddamn reason." -- Katt Williams


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 27, 2011)

There is a lot of idiocy in this thread. I think you all need to take a step back and think about what you're saying more.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Vague statement is vague...


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

I suffer from severe depression, so sorry for being a "depressed little bitch" it's not something I have total control over. Not trying to play the victim card, just telling my side of the story. It doesn't even really bother me anymore, but I have friends who have killed themselves over this, and its an issue I feel passionately about. Sorry if that offends anyone. I'm glad You hade such a strong upbringing, but many people lack that, or any kind of support network. Anyway, this got heated, and I'm out. Goodnight gentlemen.


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## murakami (Sep 27, 2011)

i'd like to add that even though lady gaga is trying to help, i don't think she is the right person to help in this situation. now i've been bullied before and though i never thought of suicide, i did skip out on class a lot.

i did however use my time wisely and enrolled in a boxing club. keep in mind i didn't have many friends nor family to understand what i was going through. the thing is, despite how caring my mother is, she didn't notice anything was wrong because i came home happy anyways. 

maybe i wasn't bullied harshly like other people. my point is, each individual person has to be responsible for what they're doing. it's hard and i understand... but someone cannot simply make it go away. the only person who can is yourself and i swear by this.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Vague statement is vague...



I'm keeping it vague because I respect a lot of people here, but I do not respect a lot of what has been said so everyone can assume it applies to them.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> You really don't fucking get it, do you? You had me figured right? You don't know a thing about me. You're just another bigot, as far as I'm concerned. Do a little research about this case, maybe, I don't know, get some perspective. Besides, that post doesn't even make any sense. Coherence, how does it work?



Wow, you really need help. Either calm down or stop posting duder. I'm a bigot?? Yeah OK, nice one. 

Rev.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> Wow, you really need help.
> Rev.



Yup, you're probably right about that.


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## Lon (Sep 27, 2011)

So, i read the whole thread and feel the need to speak out...

Do any of you ever consider that the usual "growing" or "lucky break" just does not occur to some?

Theres a lot of testosterone-talk in here about stop being a bitch and overemphasizing your own struggle... you get this opinion when you've actually grown. But when you're always beaten down and just do not get a break (yes this happens, the world is cruel) it becomes not only being bullied, it becomes living hell, everyday terror. Hell i tell alot of people on a daily basis to get the sand out of their vags and start to be men, but there are scars that go beyond the fear of talking up a girl or keeping workout discipline....

I look back at my own youth and how i've been beaten down and bullied and how my life really went down the drain, it turned out ok, but if it'd continue day to day, everday, if it never woud've got better, you're afraid to go to school, to leave the flat, your body twinches when someone moves their hands in your direction, it starts to be the living hell on earth.

In the end fate threw me some lucky brakes and i got the chance to actually grow into a fully socially functioning sociopath, appearing as having a tough as fuck outer shell (with the size to back it up) and having a hard as fuck inner core which gets touched by nothing, positive or negative.

*what i am trying to say with this cool story bro:* even if fate throws you some lemons, and you do manage to make lemonade, it will still taste sour and very unpleasant.

*MY POINT IS:* some do not get the luxury of getting thrown a chance, and claiming to need to to get the fuck over it isnt gonna do anything good.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

I think this thread started out and went well for quite a while but has now been derailed into an argument pitting whether or not bullying is a real issue. That was never the point here, it was about a pop Singer feeling the need to go to the president over it. Hopefully we can all stop arguing and continue to discuss that point, which is the real topic here. 


Rev.


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## Xaios (Sep 27, 2011)

Wow, this thread kinda went bonkers.

I was bullied a bit when I was a kid, around when I was 6-9. I was a big kid, I was "the nerd," and I was the one with cooties. Eventually, I just learned to adapt. Part of it involved getting my fight on a bit, part of it involved growing thicker skin and just taking it.

There was one kid in particular who bullied me a lot, to the point where the school intervened. But guess what? No matter what they did, he didn't stop. Beaurocracy can only do so much regarding this particular issue. Just as it is with so many things in this life, it wasn't a problem that could be solved with red tape. It was only when *I* learned to deal with it that things got better.

For what it's worth, I do think Guitarman is correct in his view that some differences, like sexuality, will provoke a stronger response in some people than simply being fat or skinny or nerdy, because it's a more polarizing issue from a social standpoint. Also, while traditional bullies of fat/skinny/nerdy kids do it so they can feel the satisfaction of exerting power over someone else, people who bully homosexuals do it because they're taught to hate.

The unfortunate truth, however, is that the battle for these people is just going to be tougher, and until society changes itself through natural, unforced progression, that's simply how it's going to be. You can educate people all you want about the issue, but you can't make them care unless you give them a reason to care.

Ultimately, it means that, no matter how hard we try, some people are going to get lost along the way. It sucks, but it's the bitter truth.

___________________________


As far as the discussion at hand though, people really need to step back and recognize a few things:

1) I doubt anyone is debating the fact that bullying sucks. That's a given.
2) The real question at hand is whether or not Lady Gaga is really qualified to serve as an ambassador for this particular cause.
3) The other side of the issue is whether or not the issue is a) worthy of the President's attention, given some of the other insane shit he's already got on his plate, and b) what could really be accomplished.


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## Lon (Sep 27, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I think this thread started out and went well for quite a while but has now been derailed into an argument pitting whether or not bullying is a real issue. That was never the point here, it was about a pop Singer feeling the need to go to the president over it. Hopefully we can all stop arguing and continue to discuss that point, which is the real topic here.
> 
> 
> Rev.


Neither a popstar nor the president should have to intervene in bullying, this is an issue of every local human being, of every parent and every pupil, and not of people who are essentially not part of everyday society.

Bullying should be adressed on a scale close to the populus.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

I think we can all agree that Lady GaGa is full of hot air.
And that I shouldn't post under the influence of heavy anesthetics.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> I think we can all agree that Lady GaGa is full of hot air.
> And that I shouldn't post under the influence of heavy anesthetics.



And I should've eased down on my last few exchanges. One thing set me off and I could've acted more maturely. 

For the record everyone Guitarman and I both apologized to each other. 

@Lon - great post. 


Rev.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

** Removed. You 'd me **


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Ditto...


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## Lon (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I think this goes back to the parenting as has been emphasized sufficiently.


Sometimes fate (like in my case) just prohibits parenting... but ok this should be the minority, still, i was bothered how the thread-consensus swapped to "everyone just needs to get over it and stop complaining".


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Lon said:


> Sometimes fate (like in my case) just prohibits parenting... but ok this should be the minority, still, i was bothered how the thread-consensus swapped to "everyone just needs to get over it and stop complaining".



That's not so much the point I was trying to make but at this point I don't think it matters anymore. What I was getting at is that allowing them to get to you is what perpetuates the problem. Bully = Troll. Reaction = Green light. 

I'm aware that some ppl just don't have that in them but putting the idea out there might help some ppl realize they're not the piece of shit the bully wants them to believe they are. Perhaps it could have been phrased differently, but I've never been good at sugar coating. My apologies.


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## Lon (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> That's not so much the point I was trying to make but at this point I don't think it matters anymore. What I was getting at is that allowing them to get to you is what perpetuates the problem. Bully = Troll. Reaction = Green light.
> 
> I'm aware that some ppl just don't have that in them but putting the idea out there might help some ppl realize they're not the piece of shit the bully wants them to believe they are. Perhaps it could have been phrased differently, but I've never been good at sugar coating. My apologies.


I firmly oppose... not reacting will have absolutely no effect, bullying is not some sugarcoating bullshit "people who put down other people to feel better about themselves", this are the 2-3 lardhogs who pick on kids because they get picked on for being full of excess crap.

The usual bully is very well integrated in whats called "society" in school, and usually of superior physical and mental power. It doesnt matter how you define real mental strengh, in the usual situation the obvious superiority is all that matters and then the sadism will commence. Bullying is pure enjoyment gathered from executing power over others. The only effective reaction against this is usually seviere physical violence. If you do not react the punishment will just continue because it never stops being fun beating the little nerdfaggot.

Differences, like skin colour, sexuality and whatnot are just excuses to legitimate the power over a person to others, typical evolutionary groupbehaviour.

I know i will not make a lot of friends with this statement, and my use of words is well considered to emphasize my point.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

I think in a way it IS to make them feel better about themselves. You see... You mentioned that they're usually "superior" in some way according to the standards of a given society. And they use bullying to assert their authority over lesser people. Thus it boils down to them doing it simply to validate in their mind that they are, in fact, superior in the eyes of their society. It's insecurity. 

Also, I'm not sure if you actually "firmly concur" as you kind of said the opposite of what I said (unless I misread your post).


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## Lon (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I think in a way it IS to make them feel better about themselves. You see... You mentioned that they're usually "superior" in some way according to the standards of a given society. And they use bullying to assert their authority over lesser people. Thus it boils down to them doing it simply to validate in their mind that they are, in fact, superior in the eyes of their society. It's insecurity.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure if you actually "firmly concur" as you kind of said the opposite of what I said (unless I misread your post).


I am opposed to your statement that no reaction will somehow prevent you from being greenlit. 

While i support your point of helping people to be aware that a bully does not have any effect on their real value (not percieved self value), i think no reaction is the worst reaction to a bully. Hell i would advise people to beat the living crap out of one with a lead pipe before telling them to just take it and be silent...


&#8364;dit: i actually managed to get "concur" wrong in my mental dictionary, i switched concur with opposed...


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## Rev2010 (Sep 27, 2011)

Let's face it, there is no one definitive type of bully or reasoning for a bully. Some do indeed do it for some personal feeling of elevation. Some are just sadistic assholes. Some do it cause they themselves are bullied by their big brother or another family member.

There's no one reason to it that is applicable to all bullies.


Rev.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 27, 2011)

Lon said:


> I am concurring to your statement that no reaction will somehow prevent you from being greenlit.
> 
> While i support your point of helping people to be aware that a bully does not have any effect on their real value (not percieved self value), i think no reaction is the worst reaction to a bully. Hell i would advise people to beat the living crap out of one with a lead pipe before telling them to just take it and be silent...




I can get down w/ that to an extent. I just feel like violence tends to bring on more violence. That and I just don't really like fighting and I imagine I'm not alone on that. 

If it becomes a fight regardless then that's just what it is and you gotta do what you gotta do, but I never want to be the one to initiate that sort of confrontation.


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I can get down w/ that to an extent. I just feel like violence tends to bring on more violence. That and I just don't really like fighting and I imagine I'm not alone on that.
> 
> If it becomes a fight regardless then that's just what it is and you gotta do what you gotta do, but I never want to be the one to initiate that sort of confrontation.



That's my mentality as well. I hate violence, but I won't just sit back and let you Kick my ass/steal my stuff/hurt my friends.


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## tacotiklah (Sep 29, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> That's my mentality as well. I hate violence, but I won't just sit back and let you Kick my ass/steal my stuff/hurt my friends.


This. So much this. Bullies try to find what they perceive to be as the weakest kid in the class and use them as emotional and physical punching bag. But the ones that are known to handle themselves well usually get left alone. My advice:
Get bullied? Curb stomp the bastard and he will never mess with you again.

However, that only applies to your garden variety type bullying. Bullying that has its roots in hate and prejudice is much more dangerous. If you try to defend yourself with force, it will only serve to inflame the situation. You use fists, the bigot will be back with a knife, putting you in a kill or be killed situation. Its THOSE situations in which I feel that we need to legislate against more strongly against bullies and less against their victims. I believe that in schools, if you get caught bullying a kid due to race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation, you are expelled. Even as a first time offense. Better that, than letting shit slide and said victim snapping and killing themselves or others.


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## Sephiroth952 (Sep 29, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> I believe that in schools, if you get caught bullying a kid due to race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation, you are expelled. Even as a first time offense. Better that, than letting shit slide and said victim snapping and killing themselves or others.


This, when i was constantly (everyday) getting fucked with by these three kids at my school, I didn't go to the principle cause i wanted them punished. I went there to make them stop before I bring great punishment on them, something I would greatly regreting the future, but didn't mean I didn't contemplate strongly on.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> This. So much this. Bullies try to find what they perceive to be as the weakest kid in the class and use them as emotional and physical punching bag. But the ones that are known to handle themselves well usually get left alone. My advice:
> Get bullied? Curb stomp the bastard and he will never mess with you again.
> 
> However, that only applies to your garden variety type bullying. Bullying that has its roots in hate and prejudice is much more dangerous. If you try to defend yourself with force, it will only serve to inflame the situation. You use fists, the bigot will be back with a knife, putting you in a kill or be killed situation. Its THOSE situations in which I feel that we need to legislate against more strongly against bullies and less against their victims. I believe that in schools, if you get caught bullying a kid due to race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation, you are expelled. Even as a first time offense. Better that, than letting shit slide and said victim snapping and killing themselves or others.


 
They have legislation for this. It's classified as a hate crime, no?


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## Rev2010 (Sep 29, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Its THOSE situations in which I feel that we need to legislate against more strongly against bullies and less against their victims.



I don't get it... in another thread people that are against the death penalty use statics in their arguments that say having the death penalty doesn't act as a deterrent for people to not commit a murder.

Yet here in this thread there are those that think there should be legislation to make bullying a special instance crime. So if having these added laws, like the hate crime law, doesn't actually deter people than what is the point exactly in wanting further legislation? We're also talking about the fact that most bullying tends to occur among ages where prosecution just isn't anywhere near the penalty of an adult. So if there are bullying laws what are they going to do, put a 13 year old kid in prison? Nah, of course not right... so what then... the parents get jailed? 

IMO prevention is better than simply punishing after the event occurred. I strongly believe in punishment of course but at that point the mental and/or physical damage is likely done and will leave behind something the person will keep with them forever. So what type of legislation, for those of you that think there needs to be extra laws for this, do you think needs to be enacted?


Rev.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

^ Well in here it seems that the line between "bullying" and "hate crimes" is rapidly blurring. And I agree that being proactive is far better than being reactive. But that starts in the home and is enforced elsewhere. Parents should be doing a fair bit of nuturing at home and probably pay more attention to the lives they bring into this world school officials should be more vigilant.

Can't catch it every time, but no matter how good you are, you're never perfect so there's always room for improvement.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 29, 2011)

Solution: Let teachers spank kids again . Bullies _might_ think twice if they know bullying will mean going outside to get a switch for the teacher to tan their hide with .


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## murakami (Sep 29, 2011)

i see a problem with people labelling any ordeal as a hate crime or an act of racism. in most cases, when people see that the victim was of different color or gay etc... they are quick to state that it was an act of prejudice. now i am not saying that is always the case, but i can't possibly believe that all cases are the result of some ass hating on other races.

i don't want to step on any toes, but i think it's easy to post blame on certain things entirely, like in this case, a bully who was bagging on the kid. he may possible had a mental imbalance that his parents ignored etc.. but yeah, i most definitely agree that the parents tutelage, if done properly, could have done a world of a difference for the victim.



> ^ Well in here it seems that the line between "bullying" and "hate crimes" is rapidly blurring. And I agree that being proactive is far better than being reactive. But that starts in the home and is enforced elsewhere. Parents should be doing a fair bit of nuturing at home and probably pay more attention to the lives they bring into this world school officials should be more vigilant.
> 
> Can't catch it every time, but no matter how good you are, you're never perfect so there's always room for improvement.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

murakami said:


> i see a problem with people labelling any ordeal as a hate crime or an act of racism. in most cases, when people see that the victim was of different color or gay etc... they are quick to state that it was an act of prejudice. now i am not saying that is always the case, but i can't possibly believe that all cases are the result of some ass hating on other races.
> 
> i don't want to step on any toes, but i think it's easy to post blame on certain things entirely, like in this case, a bully who was bagging on the kid. he may possible had a mental imbalance that his parents ignored etc.. but yeah, i most definitely agree that the parents tutelage, if done properly, could have done a world of a difference for the victim.


 
And you're definitely right about that. Sometimes it definitely is NOT a hate crime. But if you're being bullied because you're gay then I feel like it falls under that umbrella. If you're being bullied and just happen to be gay then ppl will sometimes try to make shit out to be more than it is bc, let's face it, this country loves drama...

Proof...


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## murakami (Sep 29, 2011)

^

I read in the paper a couple of months ago of a guy(who was gay) trying to hit on another guy in a bar. apparently the gay person was extremely aggressive in making something happen between the two. the end result was the straight guy pushing the gay person backwards who then slipped and knocked his head on the cement. i think he died if i remember correctly. anyways, my city sort of celebrates homosexualility quite a bit haha... the straight guy had the book thrown at him and the crime itself was considered a hate crime... -_-


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

Now that isn't fair. But it's just like if a white guy gets in a fight w/ anything but a white guy and wins...


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## tacotiklah (Sep 29, 2011)

Hate crime laws don't exactly get enforced at elementary schools. How about this then:

If your kid commits hate-fueled bullying both the kid AND the parents are liable for both criminal charges AND civil compensation (in the case of hospital bills and whatnot). AFAIK (which isn't much tbvh) the most that can happen at the moment is a whole lot of nothing despite there being laws that say otherwise. 

So fine, you have me sold that the law is utterly useless, therefore there is no need to pass more, and that people just need to arm themselves. Start shit with me about anything, then I can just put you in the hospital. Problem solved, right?

Or how about maybe the law provides victims the right to beat the utter shit out of the bully's parents for being useless as hell, and any attempt to defend themselves will result in criminal charges?

Nope, none of those work in the real world. There isn't a whole lot that a gay 13 year old kid can do about a bully's upbringing. If the kid tells his parents, and the parents make a complaint, it's usually ignored. Even if it isn't, there isn't a whole hell of a lot a school can do to make the bully's parents stop being neglectful asshats. So it all comes down to the gay kid settling the problem himself. Hence where the gay kid's parents come into play by teaching them how to handle himself when it comes to bullies. Oh, just one problem......parents don't know the kid is gay, and probably wouldn't accept him if they knew he was, so the kid can't really say anything to his parents. Now what the hell does he do? Can't tell a teacher, because the teacher (regardless of what any law says otherwise) may treat the kid like crap due to being gay. Only hope the kid has lies in his friends that can back him up when he gets teased, taunted, or beat fucking senseless. Trouble again, is not too many middle school kids take kindly to gay kids. So our troubled protagonist here may have like ONE friend they can go to. Not much of a defense against a really determined asshat with an axe to grind against "fags". 

So basically NOBODY can protect this kid. Everyday becomes a living hell, and there's just no way to end it. How does he solve the problem? Suicide starts to look like a viable option, because all others have been exhausted.

I see how people can't understand that homosexuality is a bit more "special" that other cases of minorities, but lets face the facts. Your parents usually won't disown you because you're black/hispanic/asian. You still have the option of going to them when shit gets real. Homosexuals don't, because fear of their parents reactions keeps that from being an option. In all fairness though, I can't foresee any other thing in which LBGT people have it any worse than other minorities. It all comes down to the fact that people are completely fucked up, and I'm still praying for the apocalypse.



Another point I'd like to bring up:
How the hell does one need to be "qualified" to speak with the president? From my understanding, the constitution was setup so that people could actually SPEAK with their elected representatives about their concerns. Was unaware that anybody had to take a test, or earn a degree to speak with a public official....


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 29, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Solution: Let teachers spank kids again . Bullies _might_ think twice if they know bullying will mean going outside to get a switch for the teacher to tan their hide with .



Whether you're serious or not I don't know, but I don't think you're far from right. Kids are too brave these days, they need a good slap.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 29, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Whether you're serious or not I don't know, but I don't think you're far from right. Kids are too brave these days, they need a good slap.



They REALLY do


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

But isn't the new age thing to talk to your kids about their feelings? That's working, right? 

Fear of my father's wrath kept me out of so much trouble. And fear that my mom would say, "I won't tell him," and do the shit anyway.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 29, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> But isn't the new age thing to talk to your kids about their feelings? That's working, right?



Spanking kids isn't something that works across the board. Some kids just need to be spoken to..but others just plain need an ass whoopin.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 29, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Spanking kids isn't something that works across the board. Some kids just need to be spoken to..but others just plain need an ass whoopin.



This.


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## murakami (Sep 29, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Hate crime laws don't exactly get enforced at elementary schools. How about this then:
> 
> If your kid commits hate-fueled bullying both the kid AND the parents are liable for both criminal charges AND civil compensation (in the case of hospital bills and whatnot). AFAIK (which isn't much tbvh) the most that can happen at the moment is a whole lot of nothing despite there being laws that say otherwise.
> 
> ...


 
i dont think you should treat homosexuals differently when it comes to these problems. it'll just create a greater rift between them and the other people who are not gay.

don't get me wrong; i really feel that this child was dealt a bad set, but his case is no different from another child who was bullied for whatever reason he was bullied for. it's a sad case, but having lady shemale gaga do anything IS SERIOUSLY NOT GOING TO CUT SHIT. 

it's a good endeavor, but what will it do? wouldn't it cause more people to listen to her music which may cause more feminism in men? yes, thats an extremely dumb theory, but if you have someone who dresses obscene just for the hell of, it's basically telling other kids to do the same which will probably result in their bully predicament. look at all the emo bands; shit, i bet you a lot of people talk shit to emo kids all the time at school. i don't flat out go outside and call a emo guy a fag, but other WILL do it because they're dressing the same way their idols do e.g. musicians/actors etc...

also, i don't think dressing emo will get you bullied, but it definitely makes you an easy target. whether you dress that way to get attention or to look cool, you're catching attention. just like a slutty dressed woman doesn't want pervy eyes heading her way. well too bad, bitch! you dressing that way, you getting it that way 

if you want someone to stand up to bullying, get a football player or hockey player to tell their story. i bet they were all jocks in high school, but you never know.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

^ I tried to make that point before. Tread lightly, sir. In retrospect I both agree AND disagree with that.


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## murakami (Sep 29, 2011)

^

understood. though i am not trying to hurt anybody here, and my attentions are good; i just strongly believe that you just cant make a person NOT hate the color red, you know what i mean?

some people just hate on certain fashion, how a person speaks etc... now i respect that people can dress and act the way they want in public because that does take bravery... but people have to realize you can't just go all willy nilly and shit(it's just not respectful at times). if you are gay, thats great.  ~ however, if you go about flaunting it around like elton john to get attention, then of course you'll get the 'bad attention'. ~ shit, sometimes i see my friends flashing a big roll of cash just to show off. haha, it's retarded and i am sure a lot people look down on it because they think my friend is showing off.(which i am sure he is)

i'll also add that i understand that a person cannot simply fake who he/she is. if you want to be that kind of person then i hope it is natural and not some sort of ploy to raise eyebrows.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

murakami said:


> ^
> 
> understood. though i am not trying to hurt anybody here, and my attentions are good; i just strongly believe that you just cant make a person NOT hate the color red, you know what i mean?
> 
> ...



See but the thing about it is this... You don't even have to flaunt it to have shit happen. I had a friend in college who was gay. One of the coolest guys I've ever met in my life and most other ppl seemed to agree. A girl mentioned to some guy at a party that he was gay... That guy pulled a knife on him later that night for it completely unprompted.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 29, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> you have me sold that the law is utterly useless, therefore there is no need to pass more, and that people just need to arm themselves. Start shit with me about anything, then I can just put you in the hospital. Problem solved, right?



Firstly, calm the heck down! 



ghstofperdition said:


> There isn't a whole lot that a gay 13 year old kid can do about a bully's upbringing



Nor is there anything any new anti-bullying laws will do to help that either.



ghstofperdition said:


> Oh, just one problem......parents don't know the kid is gay, and probably wouldn't accept him if they knew he was, so the kid can't really say anything to his parents..



That's pure bullshit. Lady Gaga tells all these people to love themselves and society has come waaay far with the acceptance of homosexuals even compared to 40 years ago! It's a VERY public topic now with a ton of awareness. If a kid can't tell his parents then he is simply keeping a secret (or lying) to them and that is a whole other issue. Parents should accept their kids independent on their sexuality and if they don't there's nothing anti-bullying laws can do to help it anyway. Besides, bullying is bullying, a kid doesn't have to say they are being bullied because they are gay. Additionally, this isn't only about being gay so chill out with pigeon-holing the whole issue to gays.



ghstofperdition said:


> Suicide starts to look like a viable option, because all others have been exhausted.



Sorry but you lost me. How is suicide ever a viable option??? If I were this hypothetical kid I would prefer to run away and live elsewhere barely making ends meet than to kill myself!!!



ghstofperdition said:


> I see how people can't understand that homosexuality is a bit more "special" that other cases of minorities



Oh yeah, because being gay deserves more attention and help than some poor black, white, or hispanic kid being beaten daily cause of their race??? Come on now 



ghstofperdition said:


> How the hell does one need to be "qualified" to speak with the president? From my understanding, the constitution was setup so that people could actually SPEAK with their elected representatives about their concerns. Was unaware that anybody had to take a test, or earn a degree to speak with a public official....



Oh right... well why don't you try and get a meeting with the president then? Please let us all know how that works out  

You too seem to be missing the point. I've said it a dozen times so I won't say it again, you can read my past posts.


Rev.


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## tacotiklah (Sep 30, 2011)

@Rev
Try reading my post rhetorically and try to pick up on my cynicism as opposed to literally.

Im trying not to pigeon-hole anything on this issue. It came to light that the purpose of lady gaga's visit was due to a gay kid being bullied to the point that he felt suicide was the only way out. I feel then that there is merit in discussing gays and bullying. Your need to NOT want to discuss that particular issue makes me raise an eyebrow. 

Next, advancements have certainly been made since the stonewall riots, but nowhere NEAR the level you are thinking of. Just recently (as in within the last 3 months), 2 major disses to my local gay community have been committed:
-A local business was covered in graffiti with slurs like "Kill all homos" and "God hates fags". Worst part is that the city council took almost a month to clean up the graffiti, then a couple more weeks to even BEGIN investigating anything.
-Local fair bought a bunch of rainbow flags not knowing what they meant. Things were fine and dandy until some crazy bitch from the local baptist church cussed them out for supporting gays by waving those flags. In the horror of realization, they took down every flag and refused to put them back up.

The guy Ive been dating works at the local LGBT center as a crisis counselor and regularly gets calls from LGBT kids saying things like how they came out to their parents and one or more of the following happened:
-was verbally/physically abused
-Was placed on psych meds and put into therapy to 'stop being gay'
-Thrown out of their home as a result, despite still being a minor
-Put up for adoption

All true stories man. Admittedly the more extreme cases, but that shit happens and isnt that uncommon. Point? For ever step forward, we take two backwards. 

-And I said that gays only get it slightly worse in the fact that not even their parents are a guaranteed resource and haven to discuss being bullied. Again, nobody puts a kid on meds and strict counseling regiment to get them to stop being black/asian/hispanic.


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## MFB (Oct 2, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> If a kid can't tell his parents then he is simply keeping a secret (or lying) to them and that is a whole other issue. Parents should accept their kids independent on their sexuality and if they don't there's nothing anti-bullying laws can do to help it anyway. Besides, bullying is bullying, a kid doesn't have to say they are being bullied because they are gay. Additionally, this isn't only about being gay so chill out with pigeon-holing the whole issue to gays.



A. Do you REALLY think it's THAT easy to tell someone you're gay? I mean, and I'm making a big assumption here, most parents want to see their kids grow up and find a girl/guy to love and have kids of their own so they can their kids can experience the other side of the fence. In this case, telling someone your gay shatters that entire dream and they no longer have kids of their own unless it's by adoption (males) or a sperm donor who they say "Yup, good enough for this sole purpose."

B. It's VERY easy for a parent to not be supportive of their kid, and on something as large a scale as sexuality, yes they could very easily say "You're not gonna be gay in this household." How well do you think that shit would go over in the deep South that's full of fucking bible-thumpers? It'd probably end as well as a blacks did in the old days and they'd be run out of town or worse.

C. Generally, the more information you can give about WHY you're being bullied or HOW you're being bullied, the more helpful it is. Saying "Mom/Dad, I'm being bullied" won't be taken as seriously as "Mom/Dad, I'm being bullied for having a different sexuality/race/gender" etc... The first one is pretty much 'boys will be boys' whereas the second portrays 'This should be taken care of now'



> Sorry but you lost me. How is suicide ever a viable option??? If I were this hypothetical kid I would prefer to run away and live elsewhere barely making ends meet than to kill myself!!!



Boy wouldn't that be fantastic if everyone thought that way, but unfortunately people want an immediate escape from shit like this and that's where suicide comes in. People commit suicide to get away from their problems, and unfortunately they don't think of the long term effects of it versus it being considered a temporary solution. It's temporary in that, you get away from the bully, but you also never get to come back and you cause tremendous pain to those you love and who loved you back.



> Oh yeah, because being gay deserves more attention and help than some poor black, white, or hispanic kid being beaten daily cause of their race??? Come on now



They should be treated as equal, both are being bullied for being different due to things that were not of their choosing. (I'm of the school of thought that homosexuality is hard-wired from birth and while you might later find girls attractive as well in the same sense, you'll still find men more attractive than girls so you can't change it.) No one gets to CHOOSE their race like it's a fucking spawn loadout in Call of Duty or something, you play the hand you're dealt.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 3, 2011)

I too believe sexuality is hard wired in the brain during fetal formation. However, your post says nothing on the topic of how anti-bullying laws will help any of that. Gay or not, how will the government help??


Rev.


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## MFB (Oct 3, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I too believe sexuality is hard wired in the brain during fetal formation. However, your post says nothing on the topic of how anti-bullying laws will help any of that. Gay or not, how will the government help??
> 
> 
> Rev.



That's because I stated on the first page I feel bullying shouldn't be legislated by the government, giving us one more law to know when most laws were based on common sense (back when it was common) and proper education of kids should solve the problem in itself; however the problem here is that not every kid IS properly educated, or isn't going to care that he shouldn't bully people and the it will still happen.


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 3, 2011)

... And back to square one.


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## MFB (Oct 3, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> ... And back to square one.



I didn't intend to further the argument or anything, but those statements jump out at me to the point where I was in like awe of what I was reading.


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## GalacticDeath (Oct 4, 2011)

I can definitely see where you guys are coming from. But if you had that much fame and popularity, wouldn't you try to try to promote some good with it. I agree that her opinions aren't any more important than anyone elses, but she's a celebrity so they're gonna be heard no matter what. It seems like she has good intentions. 

It's true that speaking to Obama probably won't do much but the act of speaking to him or wanting to speak to him about this issue in my opinion says a lot. If her goal is to raise awareness on the issue and get people to think about ways to stop bullying, then she's already accomplished it. I mean, we're talking about it right now aren't we?


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## chronocide (Oct 7, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Whether you're serious or not I don't know, but I don't think you're far from right. Kids are too brave these days, they need a good slap.



Few teachers would use corporal punishment were it available. And those that would you don't really want to be teachers anyway.

In Britain it had fallen totally out of use nigh on two decades before it became illegal because teachers simply didn't desire to hit children.


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## murakami (Oct 7, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Few teachers would use corporal punishment were it available. And those that would you don't really want to be teachers anyway.
> 
> In Britain it had fallen totally out of use nigh on two decades before it became illegal because teachers simply didn't desire to hit children.


 
i think any good parent doesn't want to hurt their own child, but if their kid were to step out of line it's only logical to set them straight... and if a talk is not working sometimes you have to hit them to realize that what they're doing is not acceptable.

in this day and age, parents are too scared to hit their kids or just don't care. i think that is a problem in itself.


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## chronocide (Oct 8, 2011)

Frankly, I think you're a pretty shit parent if you can't keep your kids under control without hitting them after they're infants anyway. I think there are plenty parents that are too soft, but it's the lack of harsh words, not the lack of physical chastisement that's the issue.


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## Explorer (Oct 8, 2011)

Personally, I'd rather see Dan Savage, who has put so much work into the "It Gets Better" stuff to help prevent GLBT suicide, get to meet the President than Lady Gaga. Not only has Savage been more involved and invested, but it will leave Lady Gaga more time to pursue her bid to replace Freddy Mercury in Queen. 

----

The point was made earlier that if you treat violence against gays or people of other races as a hate crime, it will drive a wedge between those targeted and those targeting.

I'm still waiting to see the modern Nazis and the current Klan reconcile with those whom they've historically targeted. Otherwise, I suspect the enthusiasm regarding such reconciliation is a bit misguided and ill advised.


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## AxeHappy (Oct 9, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Frankly, I think you're a pretty shit parent if you can't keep your kids under control without hitting them after they're infants anyway. I think there are plenty parents that are too soft, but it's the lack of harsh words, not the lack of physical chastisement that's the issue.




The biggest problem I see is parents making threats and not carrying through. 

It only takes a couple of times doing that before kids figure out they don't need to listen to you. 

Always ALWAYS! carry through on any threat you make. Or don't make the damn threat!



Seriously though, there are some kids who need to be hit. There a huge difference between discipline and beating though.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 11, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Personally, I'd rather see Dan Savage, who has put so much work into the "It Gets Better" stuff to help prevent GLBT suicide, get to meet the President than Lady Gaga. Not only has Savage been more involved and invested, but it will leave Lady Gaga more time to pursue her bid to replace Freddy Mercury in Queen.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


 

As a bi guy, I can safely say that Dan Savage needs to be hit by a fucking truck. He harasses and bullies bisexuals by saying shit like that we're all really gay and need to stop pretending otherwise, and just pick a side already. Or that we're all just sluts that want to sleep with everybody and are incapable of having a monogamous relationship. 

I respect his passion for advancing Lesbian and Gay rights, but seems to forget that there's a B and a T in LGBT. He'd be the LAST guy I'd want fighting for any kind of rights when it comes to me.


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## Guitarman700 (Oct 11, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> As a bi guy, I can safely say that Dan Savage needs to be hit by a fucking truck. He harasses and bullies bisexuals by saying shit like that we're all really gay and need to stop pretending otherwise, and just pick a side already. Or that we're all just sluts that want to sleep with everybody and are incapable of having a monogamous relationship.
> 
> I respect his passion for advancing Lesbian and Gay rights, but seems to forget that there's a B and a T in LGBT. He'd be the LAST guy I'd want fighting for any kind of rights when it comes to me.



My thoughts exactly. He's as much of an intolerant nut bag as the rest.


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## Explorer (Oct 11, 2011)

Hmm. The impression I always got was that one can't tell from the professions of a younger person if that younger person knew where they stood. I think he addressed this somewhere. Hold on... here:

Bisexuals by Dan Savage - Seattle Pullout - The Queer Issue: You're Doing It Wrong - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper

Regardless of that issue, my point was that I can't think of anyone else whom I'd view as being as vocal as he was in getting "It Gets Better" going, and that LG is definitely not the first person I'd choose to have in for a meeting with the President. 

For what it's worth, I do remember someone submitting a letter to Dan about a decade ago by a bisexual man where he asserted that "the common wisdom" about bi men is that they are actually gay. I don't remember Dan making a blanket statement about bisexuality in the way you remember, but have definitely read his comments on situations where men were in marriages, hadn't come out to their wives, and were just looking for something on the side. 

----

Anyway, back to my main point: Gaga is not my choice of spokesperson, due to her appearing to be a Joannie-come-lately to the issue.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Oct 11, 2011)

You know who would be my choice of spokesperson?


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## Explorer (Oct 11, 2011)

Oh my god! I totally forgot about him!

And, of course, he is willing to use one of my favorite SS.org descriptors. Behold!


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## Guitarman700 (Oct 11, 2011)

Takei is my hero.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 12, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Takei is my hero.



Same here. Thats the guy Id want spearheading the talks with Obama. The man is a genius!


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## Loomer (Oct 12, 2011)

George Takei fucking rules. That is all.


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## Jontain (Oct 12, 2011)

I was smacked (across the backside) as a kid and I like to think i turned out pretty well. Parents need to be able to smack their kids but as mentioned there is a difference between smacking to enforce disapline (which works really damn well and in a day when you hear about more kids lashing out and hitting their parents who are left defenceless for fear of child services, it needs to be brought back in a big way) and hitting children to vent frustration (which obviously does nothing at all to help that childs moral understanding).

People of any age learn that if the result of doing something is pain then you dont do it, and as a child who was disiplined in this way I can safely say that (for me) I respect my parents for doing it as I look around at other people of my generation and cant believe how immoral they are, causes great concern for the future really...


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## rectifryer (Oct 12, 2011)

There has a to be a consequence greater than the gain as well as a reason for a child to truly learn or grow from a punishment.

I dont think legislation will accomplish this. I dont think LGG should be allowed to step foot near the white house in any sort of inluential capacity. 

If you are gay and harrased in school because of it, then it is sexual harrassment. There is no need for an extra clause. I have sympathy for you, but you are no more special that all the girls getting maliciously pressured for sex by all the jocks because said jocks see Lady Gaga's videos and think all girls just want it. 

Its a matter or proper enforcement of what we already have in place and cultural changes. Neither will happen soon. This isnt a disney movie.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 13, 2011)

Above post makes me bristle with rage due to its sheer ignorance....


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## Explorer (Oct 13, 2011)

@rectifyer - Are you saying that rather than legislation which prohibits certain behaviors, we should have corporal punishment at a level set by the discretion of the one administering it?

Sorry, but I had kids in my classes from kindergarten through graduation whose parents let them get away with anything, and those who were beaten down for nothing.

The reason legislation levels certain fields is that it applies equally to everyone. 

Incidentally, you should look up the definition of sexual harassment, and the definition of bigotry and racism. You're making the case that the recent execution in Texas was over harassment instead of being over a hate crime. Not being familiar with what you're talking about makes it hard to convince anyone that you *are* familiar enough to talk knowledgeably about it.


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## AxeHappy (Oct 13, 2011)

Did he say that getting the shit beat out of you for being gay is the same thing as girls being pressured for sex?

I think it's self-evident how untrue that is?


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## rectifryer (Oct 13, 2011)

LOL sure, put words in my mouth. 

No, getting the shit beat out of you would be assault and a hate crime. Thats not even what I was talking about. I was talking about someone's experiences here in the thread. AS IT IS CLEAR THAT KILLING SOMEONE ISN'T HARASSMENT.

My point, as clearly stated before, is that there is ALREADY LEGISLATION IN PLACE THAT DOES THE SAME THING.

There are hate crime laws/harrassment laws/assault...

If you guys cant read a post, then dont tell me I am not qualified to talk about this. 


Explorer,

So, wait a sec, are you telling me that the legislation in place already didnt protect you? So if we rename it, the bullys will stop? 

LOL


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## tacotiklah (Oct 13, 2011)

AxeHappy said:


> Did he say that getting the shit beat out of you for being gay is the same thing as girls being pressured for sex?
> 
> I think it's self-evident how untrue that is?



Hence why I was pissed and left the thread. I mean REALLY!!!!??? Matthew Shepard died because 2 guys wanted in his pants!!!??

No, he died because two bigots tortured and killed him just for being gay. What part of 'WE ARE BEING BEATEN, TORTURED AND MURDERED' do some of you not understand!? This hatred starts at a young age when kids mirror and parrot their parents own bigot actions and words. Obviously the parent wont intercede. We need help from somebody. I say we legislate against the parents in addition to the kids when hate crimes occur. Make the crosstitutes rethink what they teach their kids. Because if the religious right had their way, there would be an ol' fashioned genocide going on, and people like myself would be on the hit list. The indifference on the matter makes people just as bad as those who commit the crimes. We dont want sympathy, we want support.....


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## rectifryer (Oct 13, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Hence why I was pissed and left the thread. I mean REALLY!!!!??? Matthew Shepard died because 2 guys wanted in his pants!!!??
> 
> No, he died because two bigots tortured and killed him just for being gay. What part of 'WE ARE BEING BEATEN, TORTURED AND MURDERED' do some of you not understand!? This hatred starts at a young age when kids mirror and parrot their parents own bigot actions and words. Obviously the parent wont intercede. We need help from somebody. I say we legislate against the parents in addition to the kids when hate crimes occur. Make the crosstitutes rethink what they teach their kids. Because if the religious right had their way, there would be an ol' fashioned genocide going on, and people like myself would be on the hit list. The indifference on the matter makes people just as bad as those who commit the crimes. We dont want sympathy, we want support.....


Uhh what you need is proper enforcement of the current laws and a cultural change. Guess who said that earlier?

You need to calm the fuck down.

http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/parent-liability-child-s-act

The first laws making parents liable for their childrens actions were passed in *1903. *


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## tacotiklah (Oct 13, 2011)

sure thing. just as soon as you stop treating the issue as if its some trival locker room bullshit, and become more aware of just how bad it still is to be a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered person in this fundamentalist country. A marine gets booed and belittled at a republican debate, just because he is gay. If Bachmann had her way, we would be in concentration camps. Id say that we have a LOT to be afraid of at the moment, and this isnt an issue that should be swept under the rug as your posts seem to imply. And the kind of legislation Im talking about would be as such:
Your kid commits a hate crime that results in murder, both you and your child end up on death row. Bet ya parents would have more incentive to teach their kids right from wrong then huh?


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## Explorer (Oct 13, 2011)

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Your post seemed a little confused/unclear, and I was trying to figure out what your point was in terms of the weird intersection of a few subjects.

What was weirdest about this, though, was reading this, which made it sound like you were saying it while lisping and flapping your hands in a mocking way.



rectifryer said:


> Explorer,
> 
> So, wait a sec, are you telling me that the legislation in place already didnt protect you? So if we rename it, the bullys will stop?
> 
> LOL



Very humorous for some, the idea that someone who posted about hate crimes and harassment is "gay," and in a negative sense. Nice attempt at mocking, which might work in your social circles, although maybe not so much here on SS.org. Thanks for letting us all know where you're coming from, though!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 13, 2011)

Bullying builds character.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 13, 2011)

rectifryer said:


> Uhh what you need is proper enforcement of the current laws and a cultural change. Guess who said that earlier?
> 
> You need to calm the fuck down.
> 
> ...



Just read through that. Im not talking about civil penalties, but criminal. As in you serve hard time if your kid is a bigot and lashes out at minorities.


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## Loomer (Oct 14, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Bullying builds character.



Just not necessarily the good kind, but yes, it does indeed build character 

I was given the light version of bullying myself, and in a way I am grateful for it these days. It made me an independent thinker, which can't be bad.


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## khournos (Oct 14, 2011)

In my opinion murder is murder, harrassment is harrassment and bullying is bullying, no matter the minorities/races/whatsoever involved.

Because let's face it, if someone bashes someones head in, there has to be some level of hate involved.
So just punish everyone the same.

My two cents on that stuff.


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## murakami (Oct 14, 2011)

khournos said:


> In my opinion murder is murder, harrassment is harrassment and bullying is bullying, no matter the minorities/races/whatsoever involved.
> 
> Because let's face it, if someone bashes someones head in, there has to be some level of hate involved.
> So just punish everyone the same.
> ...


 
i have to disagree and agree. very respectful notion i have to say as well.

unfortunately, people can label any crime a hate crime when the victim is another race or gay. now, sometimes it's just down played like that because thats all we see; color or status.

i'd still like the people who attack others based on differences in appearance, color etc... to be punished more harshly because all crimes of passion are based upon emotions towards a certain person, yet racial crimes can victimize any person of that race which could mean larger numbers in casualties or a repeat offender to that specific race he/she hates.

at least with a person who killed someone specifically, he/she wont try to target another person unless he/she has a motive to whichi s usually based on emotion.


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## anthonyferguson (Oct 14, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> sure thing. just as soon as you stop treating the issue as if its some trival locker room bullshit, and become more aware of just how bad it still is to be a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered person in this fundamentalist country. A marine gets booed and belittled at a republican debate, just because he is gay. If Bachmann had her way, we would be in concentration camps. Id say that we have a LOT to be afraid of at the moment, and this isnt an issue that should be swept under the rug as your posts seem to imply. And the kind of legislation Im talking about would be as such:
> Your kid commits a hate crime that results in murder, both you and your child end up on death row. Bet ya parents would have more incentive to teach their kids right from wrong then huh?




This is so sad. Catch up America. The other day my dad (priest in the Anglican church) was telling me in Scandinavia, two bishops were ordained. Both were women and one was married to another woman. I'd like to see ms. bachmann have a 'conversation' with my housemates, both of which are lesbians, and very outspoken ones at that. GTFO intolerant arseholes.


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## Explorer (Oct 14, 2011)

There seems to be a lot of worry that someone might be prosecuted wrongfully under a hate crime statute. I *guess* I can understand the worry that someone might be convicted of more than an assault or murder on more than just that fact.

However, this is like listening to the rhetoric about the "war on Christmas," where there are lots of assertions about Christians not being able to celebrate publicly... but when one looks, the only examples given are of someone not wanting others to celebrate equally in such public ways, and so shuts it down for everyone rather than let that happen. 

In those threads, I've typically asked for a few examples of the "war on Christmas" which were of people other than Christians being allowed to celebrate publicly, while Christmas was disallowed. None were forthcoming.

And that leads me to wonder.

For all of the rhetoric about wrongfully convicting someone of a hate crime... can anyone actually provide a good example of such? Or is this just a rhetorical device without any actual support? If the latter, it might explain why so many are listening to that position with a grain of salt... or a handful.

Still, I'm hoping to learn something. Post those news stories!


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## rectifryer (Oct 15, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Your post seemed a little confused/unclear, and I was trying to figure out what your point was in terms of the weird intersection of a few subjects.
> 
> What was weirdest about this, though, was reading this, which made it sound like you were saying it while lisping and flapping your hands in a mocking way.
> 
> ...


Explorer, I dont personally know you, but I can tell you that you are not reading my posts or you are reading way more into it than I am saying. You said with your "experiences" that bullys wont stop. You didnt mention the context as specific to homosexuals, just that kids will bully despite the laws in place. My retort was not an inference that you were gay although that shouldnt matter anyways. It was a point that semantics is all this feels like. If you have details or information supporting why this is not true then we should discuss that versus everyone attacking other.


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## rectifryer (Oct 15, 2011)

Explorer said:


> There seems to be a lot of worry that someone might be prosecuted wrongfully under a hate crime statute. I *guess* I can understand the worry that someone might be convicted of more than an assault or murder on more than just that fact.


I dont think its so much a wrongful conviction that scares people so much as simply being accused is enough to ruin a person's reputation...


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## rectifryer (Oct 15, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> sure thing. just as soon as you stop treating the issue as if its some trival locker room bullshit, and become more aware of just how bad it still is to be a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered person in this fundamentalist country. A marine gets booed and belittled at a republican debate, just because he is gay. If Bachmann had her way, we would be in concentration camps. Id say that we have a LOT to be afraid of at the moment, and this isnt an issue that should be swept under the rug as your posts seem to imply. And the kind of legislation Im talking about would be as such:
> Your kid commits a hate crime that results in murder, both you and your child end up on death row. Bet ya parents would have more incentive to teach their kids right from wrong then huh?


You just keep standing behind big government. One day, someone like bachman is going to have more power than they need to, then you will find all the legislative power is going to fall back on you. Your fear is stripping your freedom.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 15, 2011)

This debate is starting to reek of conservative.... 

Sorry, but how in the bloody hell is beefing up legislation and improving the enforcement of protecting minorities (or any person for that matter) a bad thing? I keep hearing all this 'be afraid of the big, bad guberment!!!' rhetoric, but nobody can give me clear examples of how that pertains to this topic. But you're right. No need for police or anything like that. We should all arm ourselves and kill each other off. The weak gays that cant defend themselves deserve death then right?

Why dont you just come right out and say you dont give a shit dude? Why shadowbox using euphemisms for, 'Im not gay, bi or transgendered, so I dont care what happens to people that are'? You just made it clear that you care more about the size of government than the safety of the people it serves.


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## Guitarman700 (Oct 15, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> This debate is starting to reek of conservative....
> 
> Sorry, but how in the bloody hell is beefing up legislation and improving the enforcement of protecting minorities (or any person for that matter) a bad thing? I keep hearing all this 'be afraid of the big, bad guberment!!!' rhetoric, but nobody can give me clear examples of how that pertains to this topic. But you're right. No need for police or anything like that. We should all arm ourselves and kill each other off. The weak gays that cant defend themselves deserve death then right?
> 
> Why dont you just come right out and say you dont give a shit dude? Why shadowbox using euphemisms for, 'Im not gay, bi or transgendered, so I dont care what happens to people that are'? You just made it clear that you care more about the size of government than the safety of the people it serves.



Hit the nail on the fucking head. Well said.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 15, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I *guess* I can understand the worry that someone might be convicted of more than an assault or murder on more than just that fact.



And with all the debate about people possibly being innocent of murder being put to death I can't believe the same people against such cases being all for more laws to bury the fuck out of someone in legal charges which may themselves be abused. If additional laws existed specifically for bullying who's to say many won't be severely overprosecuted just to be made an example of or because these laws overlap?? Why not charge said person with bullying, harassment, and a hate crime all at the same time and put them away for 19 years over something that might not warrant such a harsh sentence?



ghstofperdition said:


> Sorry, but how in the bloody hell is beefing up legislation and improving the enforcement of protecting minorities (or any person for that matter) a bad thing?



I've always been of the mindset that when you make special cases for certain groups you continue the legacy of segregation and inequality. If you treat people different, even better, there's no difference from separating them amongst other races and groups. I know many here will argue certain groups need help and I'm all for that. But when you have laws with bias or preferential treatment it doesn't serve the public in terms of equality and acceptance, it only creates a divide. When I was in my teens I took the police and fireman exams and they had extra points for minorities. Do you think a Caucasian person will feel happy knowing a minority person that scored lower than them got the job based on their race??? Of course not, instead it will lead to other negative feelings. If we want this world to get over all this separation and hatred we need to treat everyone equally - no bias nor any preferential treatment. 


Rev.


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## rectifryer (Oct 15, 2011)

Dont worry rev, if you have an idea other than theirs they will just label you a conservative (FUCKING LOL) or someone who doesnt care about any minority( DOUBLE FUCKING LOL), its not like I'm a minority myself or anything. 

You guys dont know shit about me, and cant dispute the ideas I present. All you can do is attack. How about you provide, I dont know, some fucking justification? 

I find it incredibly ironic how intolerant most the people in this thread are.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 15, 2011)

rectifryer said:


> I find it incredibly ironic how intolerant most the people in this thread are.



I'm with ya man for the mostpart, but ease down a bit because you won't win any fans flipping out on everyone. Sounds like you may have posted after one beer too many, I've done that a few times before lol 

I think it's more over-sensitivity than intolerance. See, when something happens to a person they then have that personal experience and feel they have a special instance case. I've seen a number of gay or bi people post in this thread completely in support of extra legislation for anti-bullying but I probably wouldn't find those people posting anywhere near as passionately about an issue that hasn't affected them personally. It's just like how 99% of celebrities only care about medical research in the field that has affected their health and ONLY AFTER it has affected them! Jonas with diabetes, others with various cancers, Michael J. Fox with Parkinsons, etc.

I don't see any of these people giving the slightest shit about these afflictions until they get them themselves. And I think that is the ironic part - thinking YOUR issue is the most important. If someone can live the rest of their lives with a manageable disease why is that more important a cause than something that kills people early in life daily!?!?

Anyhow, I was just making a point. Those here that have been bullied because of their sexuality are hurt and scarred by it and want to see it abolished. I understand where they are coming from and why they feel the way they do. I just happen to feel they are being blinded a bit by their emotions and aren't really thinking clear-minded of the implications of enacting yet more laws to try (likely unsuccessfully) to deal with it. Not saying by any means that nothing should be done, something should be... but that's already been covered dozens of times in this thread.


Rev.


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## Explorer (Oct 16, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I've always been of the mindset that when you make special cases for certain groups you continue the legacy of segregation and inequality. If you treat people different, even better, there's no difference from separating them amongst other races and groups.



Rev, you know I respect you deeply, but I disagree with your basic premise: Hate laws set up special groups, and are targeted towards those groups.

If a group stamps the shit out of someone because they're a kyke, a cracker, a ni**er, a queer, a beaner, a breeder or whatever... those laws apply equally, don't they? It's not that a particular group is protected, it's that a particular motivation for a crime has a harsher consequence. 

Have I misunderstood the hate laws? Do they actually say, an attack on only these groups gets harsher punishment?

----

Your words about being affected by bullying (or any issue) and therefore caring about said issue is interesting. What's funny is, I'm not bullied, but I've gotten involved when people *have* been in a position of disadvantage. 

I remember trying to talk to three guys who were cornering this girl. "Dudes, it doesn't look like she's interested in giving you what you want. Why not let her go?" "Fuck you, man, we can *take* what we want from her!" WTF?

In high school, there was the one flaming kid at prom, and people I knew were really picking the shit out of him. "Why give him a hard time? Why be a dick about someone who's not bothering you?"

It's a habit. Honestly, I don't know if bullies get their start from being bullied (probably not the case with the jock assholes I've had to stare down) or they just wanted to take advantage of someone. I don't really care. I know what the law permits me to do to stop them (one on one, stop when the situation calms down, no further immediate threat; several threatening a third hellpless party, much more latitude for permanent damage in order to stop the crowd). Personally, I don't think the law stops those people, in the same way I don't think laws stop rapists or murderers. However, having those laws allow society to act to remove those people from the rest of society for society's good. 

I've known people who were bullied and who didn't go on to bully others. I've known people who weren't bullied but who went on to bully people. It's tragic when someone gets caught up in their past, and perhaps there's room for laws which have stiff penalties, but which allow alternative punishments should the courts deem such appropriate. However, if there 's a track record... sorry, I don't think the innocent should suffer for the sake of giving someone lots of chances to hurt another person. 

Cheers!


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## Rev2010 (Oct 16, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Rev, you know I respect you deeply, but I disagree with your basic premise: Hate laws set up special groups, and are targeted towards those groups.



I respect you highly as well and enjoy your posts very much! I mean that. But, I'd just like to point out I didn't say anything negative about hate crime laws specifically here. I looked at my post you quoted and there's nothing there so if I said something negative about hate crimes specifically somewhere point it out and I will eat my words.

In the instance you quoted I was responding directly to ghstofperdition's post in which he said, "Sorry, but how in the bloody hell is beefing up legislation *and improving the enforcement of protecting minorities* (or any person for that matter) a bad thing?"

Since he specifically referenced enacting laws to aid in enforcement to protect minorities I responded to that specific statement. 


Rev.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 16, 2011)

Its interesting how Rev managed to quote what I wrote in parenthesis and still not get it.....

I say things are smelling conservative because the big government argument is a staple of conservative belief. Also one of the biggest arguments used by republicans to keep dont ask, dont tell in place was that gays wanted 'special treatment'. (because asking for equal treatment as straight people is demanding special treatment.  )

So when I see people regurgitating the same crap that conservatives have for the last few decades, Im just gonna call people out on it. All that anyone in the lgbt community wants is the same rights as anyone else, including the right to be protected from having our skulls bashed in. The people that make us out to be different from anyone else are the people that continue to strip and deny us fair treatment. Instead of asking the lgbt community the question of "What make you guys so different from me!?", go ask the bigots in legislation "Hey, whats them any different from us?". You'd do more good than harm then.

As far as this topic in general goes, people that go out of their way to specifically target us violently, just because of who we are, DESERVE to be targeted by the law specifically just because of who THEY are. (i.e. bigots)
But Im sure you guys will find a way to spin that basic fair rule into a rant into how thats just those pity party gays/bis wanting 'special treatment'. *sigh*


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## tacotiklah (Oct 16, 2011)

rectifryer said:


> I find it incredibly ironic how intolerant most the people in this thread are.



Projecting your own feelings onto other people will win you no sympathy here dude. If people here are on your ass, its because your posts have become increasingly offensive and you are being called out on them. You cant just post things like 'Sorry guys, but you guys are anymore special than high school girls being pressured for sex' and not expect some people to get really pissed. And it just kept going downhill from there. Best suggestion at this point would be to apologize, we all shake hands and we move on. Anything less than that will result in a lot of unpleasantness.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 16, 2011)

Ghstofperdition - I didn't read most of your post but sskimmed through it. For one - calm down. Two, I am NOWHER near being a conservative, nor a liberal, so please stop insinuating that I am. I simply think with my mind. I hate both extreme sides equally because they typically have an unswaying belief system. Have a good day dude. No offense meant by not fully reading your post as I am outside brewing beer and have to keep an eye on the propane burner. 


Rev.


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## Explorer (Oct 16, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I am outside brewing beer and have to keep an eye on the propane burner.



I normally drink beer chilled, and ale between cold and room temperature. It's obvious I've been doing it wrong, and should be making it like Earl Grey tea, only warmed up with a huge propane burner. *laugh*

----

Okay, I see how this whole thing blew up. 

Someone (I'm not going to bother going back and finding out who) asserted special treatment. People reacted back and forth. 

I noted that the hate crime laws are written not to protect any special group, as none are named, but only to put in penalties specific to targeting someone due to hatred of a group, regardless of which group that is. Until someone posts examples of someone getting successfully prosecuted of a hate crime without it passing the sniff test of a jury trial, I think we can all call bullshit on that argument as a talking point.

As to *why* that's even a talking point someone would embrace, as in the case of that racist who was recently put to death, I don't understand. That's okay, as I don't need to understand why someone would argue that the poor executed guy's hatred of another race, and the turning of that bigotry into lethal action, should be condoned by society.

Cheers!

(And now, apparently Rev has too much beer on his hands to concentrate on SS.org, which should be a priority, so I suggest we all go to his house and consume his beer and thereby take that headache off his hands....)


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## Rev2010 (Oct 16, 2011)

Explorer said:


> so I suggest we all go to his house and consume his beer and thereby take that headache off his hands....)



I'd LOVE to have you guys over!! Too bad so many of us are far away from one another. And even the one or two that are close have never actually followed through with coming over to have a few beers yet 


Rev.


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## Guitarman700 (Oct 16, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I'd LOVE to have you guys over!! Too bad so many of us are far away from one another. And even the one or two that are close have never actually followed through with coming over to have a few beers yet
> 
> 
> Rev.



Beer heals all wounds.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 16, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> Beer heals all wounds.



I agree. While my passion may make me come off as a dick, theres no reason we cant have a beer and a hug.


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## chronocide (Oct 17, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Frankly, I think you're a pretty shit parent if you can't keep your kids under control without hitting them after they're infants anyway. I think there are plenty parents that are too soft, but it's the lack of harsh words, not the lack of physical chastisement that's the issue.




Apparently this post makes me a "dickbag". I'm curious as to what's contentious about it? 

Do people really think children over a few years old REQUIRE beating as a rule to keep them in line? Could those lessons not have been well-learned prior to then if you are any kind of parent at all? Surely those physical lessons should be few and far between (if at all) and that should build a basis for verbal ones once cognition is developing?

EDIT: And again?   Good grief. Fucking LOL.


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## AxeHappy (Oct 17, 2011)

I actually do think almost every kid could use a disciplinary hit at some point in their life.

However, I don't think you deserve neg rep for your statements so have some free positive rep even though I disagree with your post.


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## NickDowe (Oct 17, 2011)

With out BULLIES there would be no HEROES

...and who wants to live in a world without heroes??

So the next time your kid gets kicked in the mouth because you sent him to school in a turtle neck, instead of rushing down to the town PTA meeting or calling your congress person.. run down to the mad science lab and get kid a radioactive spider, a utility belt, some flashy red tights and you send the lil fucker back to school and have him dole out some STREET JUSTICE!!!


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Oct 18, 2011)

In my opinion this isn't an "epidemic", it's just getting more media coverage. It's a shame the news has a field day with this, not because of how sad it may be, but because it gets people to watch. Honestly bullying will never stop, even when you're an adult. When you're different people fuck with you. I'm all for teaching kids how to deal with bullying instead of creating some soft cushy world where children are horribly fragile because there have been laws and everything else in place to keep their feelings from being hurt. The world is cruel, assholes are everywhere, the goal is learning how to deal with them when they/should they come your way, not doing everything short of the power of God to avoid them.


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## rectifryer (Oct 19, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Projecting your own feelings onto other people will win you no sympathy here dude. If people here are on your ass, its because your posts have become increasingly offensive and you are being called out on them. You cant just post things like 'Sorry guys, but you guys are anymore special than high school girls being pressured for sex' and not expect some people to get really pissed. And it just kept going downhill from there. Best suggestion at this point would be to apologize, we all shake hands and we move on. Anything less than that will result in a lot of unpleasantness.


LOL so you represent the board? You just magically stepped up? 

What is this unpleasantness? You are going to somehow punish me? I am shaking in my boots, let me tell you. 

Girls are raped ALL THE TIME. Is this not traumatic? Personally, I find it offensive that you think apparently only homosexual people suffer? You assume I am not homosexual and that most of my friends arent? You are projecting. You cant concieve a point different from your own.

And you are right, smaller gov't does fit in to conservative, but it ALSO fits in LIBERTARIAN. Which I would suspect both of us would gravitate towards. 

You have a had a hostile tone far before I entered this thread....


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## Guitarman700 (Oct 19, 2011)

rectifryer said:


> LOL so you represent the board? You just magically stepped up?
> 
> What is this unpleasantness? You are going to somehow punish me? I am shaking in my boots, let me tell you.
> 
> ...


The only person with a hostile tone here is you. 
And yes, you are quite obviously projecting.


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## rectifryer (Oct 19, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> *I agree. While my passion may make me come off as a dick.... *


CLEARLY projecting. Clearly? 

I get it. You guys feel strongly about it. Thats great. I support this cause, but I dont think new legislation will do it alone.

My favorite part was when you guys couldnt make a point about your own argument then decided you wouldn't tolerate another's idea. 

LOL


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## tacotiklah (Oct 20, 2011)

Only thing I dont tolerate is homophobic posts. And yes, I consider your high school girl comment to be both ignorant and homophobic. 

Yeah, we can just lock this thread up now....

:lock:


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## Rev2010 (Oct 20, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Yeah, we can just lock this thread up now....



Why, because one guy is attacking you? Just report his post or something or ask a mod to step in. His profile lists many neg reps on this thread alone, so I wouldn't go blaming the thread.


Rev.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 20, 2011)

Interesting news article:

Bullying Victims Fight Back With Help From Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Royalty | ThePostGame


Rev.


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