# Help on 7/8



## cGoEcYk (Feb 24, 2012)

I am working with a drummer friend of mine on a kind of simple 7/8 jam (1-2-3-4/1-2-3)... it's been a little slow going.

This is it (recording quality isn't refined, I was learning when I tracked/sketched this):

Thundar - 7/8 Chug w/Bass Loop Rough by dr_thunda on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Would you approach it in 7/8 or 7/4? Where (e.g., what beat) would you put the snare hits? I was aiming for a structured/driving kind of jagged groove.


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## Fiction (Feb 24, 2012)

I usually add snares as I would 4/4, just have it cut into the next bar and repeat.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 24, 2012)

The denominator doesn't matter. 7/4 can be the same as 7/8, 7/16, 7/1, 7/128, 7/2, 7/0.5, 7/64, 7/&#960;, whatever. All the *meter* tells you is that you have seven of something. A *time signature* exists only in written music for the purpose of defining what that "something" is, to the end that rhythms may be written proportionally. There are a few reasons why somebody might choose /8 over /4, or /2 over /16. A lot of people prefer to write odd meters with time signatures that allow the divisions to be beamed according to their groupings, so you'll see 7/8, 7/16, and 7/32 in instances where the groupings are either 2+2+3, 2+3+2, or 3+2+2. Simple and compound meters, on the other hand, do not have asymmetrical groupings, and therefore don't need a beam to indicate such. For this, it might not be a bad idea to use a written time signature like 7/1, 7/2, or 7/4 (or, with compound meters, 21/8, 21/16, 21/32). The implication with this is that rather than having three groups (one of which is larger than the other, i.e. 2+2+3), there are now seven groups that are equally large, like so: 2+2+2+2+2+2+2 (7/4, /2, /1), or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 (21/8, /16, /32).

Keeping this in mind, it sounds to me that your jam is in the 2+2+3 category. I'd probably write it as 7/8. As far as the placement of the snare... well, I'll show you where the strong beats are:

SwSwSww

A safe beat to place the snare on is "S", as these mark the beginning of each division. You might put a cymbal on the first "S" every eight bars or so to give the thing a sense of phrase. However, syncopation is always nice and I encourage playing around with it. Syncopation creates a sort of "rhythmic dissonance" (completely made that up) that can be harnessed to propel a rhythm forward. A good syncopation, in my opinion, is placing a snare on the last "w", so that it acts as an anacrusis to the next bar. My band's old drummer put a short fill on that beat at the end of the phrase in one of our songs to great effect, because we wanted the downbeat to be very strong. Of course, this all depends on the feel you're going for.


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## Zeetwig (Feb 25, 2012)

My way of looking at 7/8 is splitting it in 3 "groups": 3,2 and 2. So when I play I think one-two-three, one-two, one-two, one-two-three, one-two, one-two and so on. That way you get a sort of groovy feel and it works nice in not-too-high BPM's. 

If I use it in faster/more metallish songs then I just think 1-7 over and over 

Regarding the snare, try putting it on the 3rd, 5th and 7th beat, or the 1st, 4th and 6th (i.e. on the first or the last beat in each "group"). Or if you are playing faster or less groovy, in the 1st and and 5th (dividing it in two groups: 4 and 3 beats). Even more faster music: on the first or last beat in each 7/8 bar.

Experiment a bit and you will come up with something nice!  GLHF!


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## cGoEcYk (Feb 28, 2012)

Thanks for the tips. I love odd time sig stuff more than just about anything. 

Now if I could just get my guy to understand polyrhythms...


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## Zeetwig (Feb 29, 2012)

cGoEcYk said:


> Thanks for the tips. I love odd time sig stuff more than just about anything.
> 
> Now if I could just get my guy to understand polyrhythms...



Odd time signatures + odd rhythms and rhythmic patterns FTW!  Harder for drummers than guitarists though  If you want to play things like this then START SLOW AND EASY! This is the best protip and brotip you'll ever get!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 29, 2012)

Zeetwig said:


> Odd time signatures + odd rhythms and rhythmic patterns FTW!  Harder for drummers than guitarists though



Can I ask why? I've run into this notion with a few people, and I've had a others that had no problem with odd meter at all. I mean, the rhythms are the same, no matter which instrument you place them on.


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## Fiction (Feb 29, 2012)

I assume it has to do with drummers doing most of the accenting, it's probably just as hard on each instrument but could just be a reason we see drums handling it harder.


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## Zeetwig (Feb 29, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Can I ask why? I've run into this notion with a few people, and I've had a others that had no problem with odd meter at all. I mean, the rhythms are the same, no matter which instrument you place them on.



I play both guitar and drums and I find it harder to play odd rhythmic patterns on the drums than on the guitar, mainly due to the guitar being played with one limb and the drums with four  Coordinating complex bass drum pattern + complex rhythms with the hands is much more difficult than playing a pattern on the strings with one hand (the fretting hand plays in tandem with the picking hand so that's why I say I play guitar with one hand). Yes, the drummer don't have to play complex polyrhythms, but with odd rhythm patterns all rhythms become more complex. Especially if you play in odd time signatures. That's my experience on the matter


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## cGoEcYk (Feb 29, 2012)

I think it's just the feel itself that challenges people. Can take years for people to get comfortable with irregularness, and it can be a huge thinking outside the box leap for a lot of people. 

FYE here is some proggy stuff I did (bass) in 2010. Drumming is by a fairly accomplished cat, Giann Rubio who was on Aghora - Formless. It took years to get my bandmates to finally embrace the odd time sig styles. I'd love to do more/crazier/heavier in the same vein but it's hard to find the right people.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback. I feel that a lot of the problems and preconceptions people have of odd meter could be solved by people teaching additive rhythms rather than divisive, as all you'd ever need to practice to get around any odd meter is groups of 2 and groups of 3, but maybe I'm wrong on that as well.


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## ArrowHead (Mar 2, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I feel that a lot of the problems and preconceptions people have of odd meter could be solved by people teaching additive rhythms rather than divisive, as all you'd ever need to practice to get around any odd meter is groups of 2 and groups of 3, but maybe I'm wrong on that as well.




Yup. For so many many years I was a "one two three four five six sev" kinda guy. Then around 12 years ago a drummer I played with brought a Pikachu toy to band practice. HUH? Yup, PIKACHU. When he squeezed it, it went "PIKA PIKA PIKA ...". He then proceeded to teach us all to FEEL the pulse of 7/8 using pikachu by timing two rounds of his bizzare chant.

PIKA PIKA PIKA tap PIKA PIKA PIKA.

ONE two THREE four FIVE six sev ONE two THREE four FIVE six sev.

TAP TAP TAP pause TAP TAP TAP


Now I almost always feel 7/8 as two groups of three with a little hitch between them. Count it like above, as two groups of 7 16th notes accenting ONE THREE FIVE. Paka Paka Paka ta Paka Paka Paka. Now go listen to some Tool. You won't be able to stop hearing it.

All because of that damned pikachu.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Mar 2, 2012)

^

Pickachu????? 



I think I get it. 

OP, was that a slide guitar loop? Made me think of Primus...

@cGoEcYk; nice sounds, vicious contrast between the clean and riffs. \M/


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## oddcam (Mar 9, 2012)

I think this riff would sound nice if you did 4/4 for the first half (snare on 2 and 4), then broke it down to 7/4 with the bass + snare following the bass rhythm accents.


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## stuglue (Mar 9, 2012)

just to let you know that 7/8 and 7/4 are two different things.
I usually count 7/4 like this 1&2&3&4&1&2&3& , basically you've got 14 8th notes. 7/8 is only 7 8 notes and i count it like this 1&2&3&4


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 13, 2012)

stuglue said:


> 7/8 is only 7 8 notes and i count it like this 1&2&3&4



Eighth notes aren't always at the division level. Also, there are two ways you can think of any meter: additive and divisive.

A divisive 7 has 7 beats - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

At the division level, this is a divisive 7: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &
At the subdivision level, it's this: 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a 5 e & a 6 e & a 7 e & a

You can also do triplet divisions: 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a 5 & a 6 & a 7 & a


An additive 7 has three beats - two of them are short (two counts) and one of them is long (three counts). Yeah, I know, bear with me.

Additive 7 --
Short-Short-Long = 2+2+3 = 1 & 2 & 3 & a = taka taka takita
Short-Long-Short = 2+3+2 = 1 & 2 & a 3 & = taka takita taka
Long-Short-Short = 3+2+2 = 1 & a 2 & 3 & = takita taka taka


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## cGoEcYk (Mar 13, 2012)

stuglue said:


> just to let you know that 7/8 and 7/4 are two different things.


I'm aware. In a few cases in my experience, I've had drummers use x/4 to my x/8 (I just play my jam 2x) and it has worked. Sometimes matching directly to a fast 7/8 or 5/8 can be more jagged than desired.


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## Bubba (Apr 15, 2012)

Man I have been going about odd timing all wrong! I've always counted odd timing and timing in general in the divisive form. When I'm playing in an odd meter I usually am actually counting the rhythm almost out loud and it may just be that there are two syllables in the word seven but it always makes me want to play a beat for each syllable which is wrong. I'm definitely going to start counting additively instead.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Apr 15, 2012)

I usually count 1,2,3,4,1,2,3 for 7/8. If it's 9/8 or something like 10/8 i'll count 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1. And that again with an extra beat for 10/8


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## ArrowHead (Apr 17, 2012)

Bubba said:


> When I'm playing in an odd meter I usually am actually counting the rhythm almost out loud and it may just be that there are two syllables in the word seven but it always makes me want to play a beat for each syllable which is wrong. I'm definitely going to start counting additively instead.



"sev"

one two three four five six sev one two three four five six sev.


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## Neon (Apr 29, 2012)

cGoEcYk said:


> Would you approach it in 7/8 or 7/4? Where (e.g., what beat) would you put the snare hits? I was aiming for a structured/driving kind of jagged groove.



i'd approach it ala Mike Portnoy, going 6/8 and then a little fill there


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