# This is the most racist campaign ad I have ever seen.



## FretWizard88 (Sep 23, 2010)

This is not only the stupidest campaign ad I have ever seen, but it also brings the lulz. The first time I watched it I pretty much pissed my pants laughing at it. After thinking about it though, it is really sad that there are people who think this way.


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## Survival101 (Sep 23, 2010)

God I hate living in the south... I'm currently 30mins or so from Alabama and honestly northern Florida is essentially still Georgia and Alabama. 

But on topic, for fuck's sake I hate people like this. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Speak English or Go Back to the Sorry Ass Country You Came From" and I about rammed into the car.


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## FretWizard88 (Sep 23, 2010)

Yea, It takes stupid politicians with fucked up plans (like this guy) to make you really want to move. I live in Wisconsin, and I hear that "Go back to where you cam from!" shit all of the time.

It makes me sick...


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## Waelstrum (Sep 23, 2010)

No, he's almost right. People should only ever speak the language of the country your in. He should redo that add in the various languages of the Native Americans that inhabited the area now referred to as Alabama. Just like how I should be typing in the languages of the Wulgurukaba and Bindal people. (The traditional Aboriginal owners of my town.)


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## FretWizard88 (Sep 23, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> No, he's almost right. People should only ever speak the language of the country your in. He should redo that add in the various languages of the Native Americans that inhabited the area now referred to as Alabama. Just like how I should be typing in the languages of the Wulgurukaba and Bindal people. (The traditional Aboriginal owners of my town.)



+1


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## aslsmm (Sep 23, 2010)

i first saw that on tosh.o.. or maybe it was the colbert report.


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## Explorer (Sep 23, 2010)

A few years ago, there was a neo-Nazi rally near where I live, with all these skinheads chanting about how people should go back to where they belong, and to leave this area to those who were here first.

Which was great, considering that a counter-group of Native Americans co-opted the message, and the crowd started jeering the Nazis about being f'king hypocrites who wouldn't make good on their word. 

The best part about it was, the crowd wasn't upset or angry. The neo-Nazis were facing laughter, to which they had no defense. When a bunch of huge Native Americans start pantomiming 'Sieg heils!" and marching in clownish imitation of you, and there's so many eyes on you (and cameras) that you know you'll be killed later if you do anything (then or later) to retaliate, it's just time to roll up the hate carpet and move on.

(In a lot of ways, I liked the fact that the Nazis were facing a group who were willing to match them violence for violence, and who had their own legal nation nearby, so there was no real chance of the Nazis getting near them without being caught and killed by entering the land without permission. *laugh* It's very unlikely that anyone would get extradited off the rez for beating the crap out of a racist....)


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## aslsmm (Sep 23, 2010)

in wolf point MT there was a navy seal who was from the rez and was home visiting his mom. one night he got into a bar fight and he was beating the crap out of a guy who was calling him a pussy, when the guy's friend came up behind him and stabbed him in the back several times. he kept stabbing him till he died. because it was reservation land the federal government couldn't do anything and the bia didn't want to investigate very far into the scenario, the guy was charged with assault and was sentanced for only 6 months. for killing a navy seal he only got 6 months. so if they couldn't drag his ass from the rez to rposecute then they certainly couldn't get anyone else for something as minor as killing a racist. true story.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 23, 2010)

Wow, that was amazingly racist  I do think it's common courtesy for people to learn the language of where you're moving, but this is just a little too far....


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## Demiurge (Sep 23, 2010)

Of course, it goes too far and the politician himself will probably admit it behind closed doors, but ultimately, it's marketing. In our bad economy, people are looking to blame "outsiders" and that includes recent (legal, even) immigrants and politicians know that there is a large body of voters with whom they can press this button and gain support.

Personally, I think there can be a reasonable discourse surrounding the idea of making English the official language of the USA, but ads like these are not part of it.


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## Sebastian (Sep 23, 2010)

The piano music is so peaceful


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## jymellis (Sep 23, 2010)

YEEEEE-HHHAAAAAWWWWWWWW

ok, so i watched it and read everbodies posts.




Waelstrum said:


> No, he's almost right. People should only ever speak the language of the country your in. He should redo that add in the various languages of the Native Americans that inhabited the area now referred to as Alabama. Just like how I should be typing in the languages of the Wulgurukaba and Bindal people. (The traditional Aboriginal owners of my town.)


 

i would like to add that i am 75% native american and in our various languages we dont have any words to speak that bullshit lololol. what ever happened to "the melting pot"? i thought he was a business man? dont businesses deal with people that speak other languages on a daily basis?


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## jymellis (Sep 23, 2010)

Explorer said:


> A few years ago, there was a neo-Nazi rally near where I live, with all these skinheads chanting about how people should go back to where they belong, and to leave this area to those who were here first.
> 
> Which was great, considering that a counter-group of Native Americans co-opted the message, and the crowd started jeering the Nazis about being f'king hypocrites who wouldn't make good on their word.
> 
> ...


 
i lived on a rez  i think there would be a melee, and the beaten nazis would end up in the rez jail  oh and for those that may not know. rez=reservation. its what what most people think. its more like a large apartment complex full of pissed of injuns. on th rez, there is reservation police. they are usually native american police officers. there is also usually a reservation police station ran by native americnas. this is seperate from the local city jail


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## Jontain (Sep 23, 2010)

Haha loved how it would cut from a shot of him walking up to the camera, to the same shot from a different angle.

Although I have to say to me its polite to talk the native lanuage of where you live, I of course dont believe that this means you have to give up your heritage and your countrys language.

I still dont understand rasism in todays world, times have drastically changed from when these 'racist' views were simply because people didnt communicate with others from all around the world and in alot of places it comes from small communities that for a long time didnt consider 'outsiders' that they didnt see on the news every day or on the web. Even so those views cant and wont work in todays communities, I also have to agree it is very hypocritical of 'americans' being racist and indeed 'the english' as both have stemed from many different cultures! In americas case it makes even less sence being that they are not native to the lands if they want to bring race into the matter.

At the same time though I thoroughly belive that everyone has the right to their own beliefs, its never someone elses place to tell them how to live, this applies to all racist or not.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 23, 2010)

Racist? No

Stupidest issue to prioritize on in a campaign? Yes


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## synrgy (Sep 23, 2010)

FUCK I hate this country sometimes..

Some day I'll be travelling some other place, and some person is going to presume I'm like THIS asshole, just because I'm from America.

So yeah.. Fuck this guy and his xenophobia. He's part of the problem I want solved.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 23, 2010)

jymellis said:


> what ever happened to" the melting pot"?


 
This. And while it *is* common courtesy to "speak the language of the land" they haven't made any laws making that a requirement. Furthermore, it comes off as a tad ignorant on the American ppl's part particularly because most of us only speak one language--English (and even the English reject the way we speak it ) and most ppl that come here tend to speak their own language as well as learn English (as Americans know it).

After all this time with all these other nationalities living here, most ppl I know still only have a vague understanding, if any, of the Spanish language and they tend to get rather upset if they hear you speaking it.

The fact of the matter is that ppl are here that don't necessarily speak the language YOU grew up speaking. Either learn to speak new languages or avoid these ppl. Whatever is easiest for you.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 23, 2010)

Jontain said:


> In americas case it makes even less sence being that they are not native to the lands if they want to bring race into the matter.


 
Killing the natives and putting your name on something doesn't make you the new native???   

I coulda sworn history before this was 'Murrica was just a myth... 

/troll


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Well, bring on the hate for me, because I agree with this guy 100%. I don't find his ad racist at all.

Is he calling out any particular group of people? No. Is he implying that he's somehow superior to others because of the color of his skin, or his heritage? No. Is he suggesting intolerance or hatred towards a particular group of people? No.

What it sounds like to me, but I'm sure not you folks is, if you want to live in Alabama and you want a drivers license, you need to take a test. That test will be provided in English only if he's elected. So to me, that sounds pretty reasonable. English is the primary language for US residents in general, it is spoken almost everywhere here, I think it's only fair that people learn to read, write and speak it.

What's so "OMFG" insane about that?

And Jym, I always have to put in the "I love ya" footnote, because I do, and I respect you, your heritage and your opinions, even if I disagree with them. I say this because as you can see from this thread, whenever English as the primary language of the USA is brought up, Native Americans and subsequently their land, culture and languages are also brought up.

I've heard the argument many a time, America was founded on lands *stolen* from the natives. I wouldn't dispute that, not for one second. But can someone kindly point me to a country or land *anywhere* in the world that wasn't *once* inhabited by someone, who was later ousted, subjugated, slaughtered, relocated or otherwise marginalized? Other than maybe Africa which, to my knowledge, is the cradle which brought us modern humans? 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting Native American's struggles, or the history of theirs. I'm just saying, if you look around the country, or the world, I think you'll find that territory and land expansion were the first *resources* people had. It's only natural that one group wanting or needing said resources would take them, and it's only natural that in the course of taking them, people would be killed.

I know it's an alien concept to most of you, but if you look throughout history, problems have not historically *always* been solved by sitting down at a table to discuss things fairly and rationally. And again, I'm not making excuses for wrong doing, just trying to point out that that's the way the world has historically operated. So it should be no surprise that European settlers in America, upon arriving here and attempting to live, would in turn, perhaps, try to communicate with the locals to some degree, and then take by force that which they wanted. 

And again, it's hard to justify their actions. You really can't do it, and I am not attempting to. However, hindsight is often 20/20. I doubt there were a vocal majority of enlightened free-thinkers that think and feel the way we, or you, feel today looking back. To us it is common sense NOT to try to continually "take take take". But back then, that was the solution they thought would work.

And at the time, because fair is fair, yes *they* should have learned to speak the natives' languages. But given *their* own savage mindset, is it any wonder that they didn't? Are you at all surprised by their line of thought (wrongfully I might add), that "hey, these people aren't people, they're animals, they don't dress like us, they don't look like us, they don't talk like us... fuck em'". I have a feeling there was a fair amount of that from the white settlers and probably a bit of it from the natives as well. 

Point being, the white settlers were the ones who eventually conquered the natives. And for the last fucking time, I'm not applauding them or glorifying their atrocities. But the fact remains, they got what they wanted. And over time, English (or the American bastardization) has won out as *the* primary language for our country. So, with all that said, I think it's only fair that in *today's* day and age, that if an immigrant comes here from another country, that they learn to speak, read and write English. 

And I'm sick and tired of minorities clinging to their language as if it is the only thing that defines them and their culture. Yes I said it. No one is saying don't learn your native language. No one is saying don't read it, or speak it when you're comfortable. Well OK, some are, but I'm not among them. I'm saying that if you want to get by in this country of ours, it only serves YOU in the long run to speak 2 languages (or however many you want to learn). Keep your flags, wear them with pride, celebrate your diversity and your heritage till you fucking fall down and turn blue in the face.

But if you're going to try to get government benefits or work in this country (as you should), and for the moment, English remains the primary language, then fucking learn it. When in the middle of this century Latinos take over as the majority, and the issue inevitably comes up in Congress or society in general, and Spanish is established as the primary language, then it will be up to everyone to learn it.

Are you (in general) the type of person that would move to another country and expect the local population to speak *your* language? If you moved to another country permanently, are you the type of person that would expect the local government to provide you with tests, street names, applications and forms in *your* native language, not theirs? If you are, I feel bad for you. I really do, because I despise people with a sense of entitlement. Life owes you NOTHING.

And I say this as a Latino AND an immigrant from South America. 

So yeah, a big  for me for this guy, wish we had a governator like that in Kalifornia but unfortunately we're stuck with "GET TO THE CHOPPPA!!!!" instead.

Now bring on the arguments. I'm looking at YOU Explorer, mmr007, Synrgy and Randy.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

TL;DR

Dude's a prick. Next.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 23, 2010)

@orb- Nothing wrong w/ it the way you look at it.

I think ppl have just taken a different point of view on it as ppl who typically advocate that all American speak English (which again is fine in theory) are the slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, moonshine drunken D students of life who barely speak it themselves.

Your point of view is totally valid, though.

Also, the immigrants that come here and only speak their own language are just as annoying to me as the Americans who only speak "English" and expect everyone else around them to do the same. Neither is making any effort to facilitate communication. Fail. 

However, immigrants that don't speak English prove useful as I can't say I haven't tried pretending I only speak Spanish when confronted by an authority figure.


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## Survival101 (Sep 23, 2010)

Slightly on topic, but I thought this was really cool...
ELP Projects | Rosetta Stone

Rosetta Stone is making a program for all of these endangered Native American languages for the sake of preservation. I would personally absolutely love to learn one of these at some point.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 23, 2010)

I love how i never have to type much in these threads because Orb does the typing for me.


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## synrgy (Sep 23, 2010)

orb451 said:


> I'm looking at YOU Synrgy.



 

You raise fair and valid points, as usual.

I will _fully admit_ that much of my previously posted feeling here is to do with _my own_ prejudice: When I hear people make statements like this guy makes in this video, I immediately _presume_ that if I give them another few breaths, they will also say that abortion is murder, homosexuality is evil, and that homo-sapiens coexisted with dinosaurs.






(display found at the Creation Museum in Kentucky)

Removing that prejudice from the equation for a moment, I _still_ don't like the position. While I agree with almost all of what you said (truly, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass here) I still feel that to deny someone license to drive (or any other task they are completely qualified for) based on the language they speak is fundamentally wrong. If they can *read* English, that's good enough for me. Nobody is supposed to be talking while they're driving, anyway.

If the goal here is to encourage non-English speakers to learn the language, I feel that a much better step in the right direction would be to create more and/or give better funding to existing ESL (For the uninitiated, that's 'English as a Second Language') courses at the community level. 

Also, let's be honest with ourselves; English is a BITCH, and most of us who use it as a FIRST language still don't fully understand it or speak it particularly well.

Yes, it bothers me that we see increasing amounts of catering to Spanish (or Korean, for that matter) language speakers in our daily lives, (translations on many signs/menus/etc) but if you break it all down to a human level I quite simply don't believe that trying to deny rights or services to non-English speakers is going to help motivate them to learn the language. I actually see it exacerbating the problem, because it will likely instill an even deeper feeling of 'well if you're gonna be like that, then fuck you' in those most affected by it.

Still keeping my prejudices at bay, I'd also like to say I'd bet cash money that Alabama has SEVERAL more pressing financial hemorrhages than this one. IMHO, he's clearly just trying to pander to all the extreme/fringe constituents who have been getting all the public voice lately. It's a gambit many reps on both sides of the aisle are playing right now, and the jury is still out as to how it's going to pay off come November.

That's where my prejudice comes back in.. It's not so much this specific issue that I'm bothered by, as it is the increasing amounts of exposure the extreme fringes in America are getting these days, and the increasing amounts of pandering the political machine is giving them. Both sides are guilty. I hope you know well enough by now that I'm no Dem lover. My votes more often than not come down to which guy I think is *more* ignorant than the other, understanding that they're both idiots no matter who I choose.

So that's my 2 cents at the moment; I can identify with your stated principles, but I don't think they directly translate to this specific issue/proposed legislation. Homeboy still gets a big  from me, but I don't live in Alabama so at least it isn't my problem on a local level.


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm surrounded by those people...in fact they're looking at me right now

how about this one......it's for a congressional seat in NORTH CAROLINA


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

If you have to use a painting to illustrate your point, I think your argument may be a _tad_ outdated.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

synrgy said:


> I immediately _presume_ that if I give them another few breaths, they will also say that abortion is murder, homosexuality is evil, and that homo-sapiens coexisted with dinosaurs.



That had me rolling.  Yeah I really don't get or share those views and feel bad for big dummies that do... such is life I guess  But I get where you're coming from. It's hard not to have such a reaction, but when you look at it the way I do, I see what he's saying and to me, it makes sense.



synrgy said:


> Removing that prejudice from the equation for a moment, I _still_ don't like the position. While I agree with almost all of what you said (truly, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass here) I still feel that to deny someone license to drive (or any other task they are completely qualified for) based on the language they speak is fundamentally wrong. If they can *read* English, that's good enough for me. Nobody is supposed to be talking while they're driving, anyway.



Yeah smoke up my ass is a no-go, however butter in my ass gets a big hells yeah, as do lollipops in my mouth and watching two people fuck on film. But that's a whole other thread. 

Humour aside though, I think the gist of what he's saying, or at least what I believe is, if you want to speak, read or write your native language, that's great, all the power to you. You could and probably should. Nothing wrong with that. But, when you go to the government for assistance, or to exercise rights or privileges as is the case with a Drivers License, then you *should* learn the language the test is originally written in. In this case, English. You should not *expect* that the test be given in your native language. And that's where the sense of entitlement comes into play.

I see it EVERYWHERE. Everyone wants something or other because they feel they are OWED it. Someone, somewhere, long ago, took a shit on you, your culture, your people, your land, your money, your chest, etc and because of that, you feel like the world at large owes you something. Maybe money, maybe respect, maybe dignity or a clean tissue. Whatever the case may be, my contention is that people need to take responsibility for their own lives and their own well being. If ignoring the past dooms one to repeat it, then LIVING in the past dooms one to continue it. 

In other words, and this is from someone who LOVES holding grudges, there are times when you have let go and move forward. And that's not an indictment of Native Americans, nor of Blacks, nor any minority, anywhere, that's ever been slaughtered, silenced or slighted by an opposing force. Just that to me, holding on to things too long keeps things stagnant. And yeah, it's hard to let go when things are continually brought up, that goes for BOTH sides of an issue. 



synrgy said:


> If the goal here is to encourage non-English speakers to learn the language, I feel that a much better step in the right direction would be to create more and/or give better funding to existing ESL (For the uninitiated, that's 'English as a Second Language') courses at the community level.
> 
> Also, let's be honest with ourselves; English is a BITCH, and most of us who use it as a FIRST language still don't fully understand it or speak it particularly well.



Well I think it goes back to overtures and efforts. The fact that we even *have* ESL programs out there should speak *volumes* about our willingness to accommodate new English speakers. Am I wrong in assuming that these programs are provided at little or no cost to those willing to take them? And am I wrong in assuming that the majority of those taking the courses are self-motivated and eager to better themselves and their opportunities? If so, please let me know, I ask sincerely and without sarcasm. But those programs are still voluntary, are they not? 

And that's another problem, if you give people a choice with anything, they, like water and electricity, will flow in the path of least resistance. I agree that learning English may be a pain in the ass. The older one gets, the harder learning damned near anything new becomes. Some people are naturally gifted and can pick up languages with no problem. Guitar players are like that. There's always some bastard that can just pick it up, ala Shawn Lane and just *play* anything they think of or hear. Guthrie Govan is another example. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Whereas I pick up a guitar and I struggle trying to learn new songs.

I won't argue that learning English is a pain in the ass for immigrants. But, as English remains the primary language for the US, they *should* fucking learn it. Do I expect them to major in English in college? Or become the next Robert Frost? No, absolutely not, but the smallest overtures on *their* part would be a welcomed change. It seems to me, and I know a lot of immigrants, though not all , that they feel learning English is both hard, and is robbing them of their culture and heritage.

They are *less* "whoever they were 5 minutes ago" by learning the language. And they are embarrassed because they speak slowly or with an accent. So because they feel like they're losing their heritage, and because they feel self-conscious, they refuse to learn or make any further efforts. My neighbor is Mexican, as is his family, he's got 15 people living in his little condo and I hear them speaking both Spanish and English regularly. Whenever I see the grandma out on the sidewalk I say hello, she answers me "Buenos Tardes". She feels more comfortable responding with that, when she clearly understands the hello. And you know what? That's fine with me.

I don't care if she's speaking Spanish to me, or in front of me with her friends. But if she wants welfare, or government help, or a drivers license or what have you, from a state or federal authority, then I feel it is *her* duty, to do what is necessary in order to take a test, fill out a form or ask a question in English. Again, not expecting her to master the language or anything, just have some *basic* fluency in both reading, writing and speaking. And I mean *basic*. Just enough to get you by. I really don't think that that is totally and wholly unreasonable, nor do I think that automatically means a person is racist or xenophobic. If it does, then great, I'm a racist and a xenophobe. Oh fucking well.



synrgy said:


> ...but if you break it all down to a human level I quite simply don't believe that trying to deny rights or services to non-English speakers is going to help motivate them to learn the language. I actually see it exacerbating the problem, because it will likely instill an even deeper feeling of 'well if you're gonna be like that, then fuck you' in those most affected by it.



And that's the thing, they *haven't* been motivated at all to learn the language. No one has said they *must* learn it in the past. It was always a culturally accepted norm, that "When in Rome, Do as the Romans do" or something along those lines. It's been more or less a loose guideline to live by. But it is one that has met increasing resistance from some minorities and immigrants. That's why I think what they need is a swift kick in the ass. Metaphorically speaking that is. The longer we pander to their wants and desires for the easy and quick fix, the more we end up with lazy, self serving, self-entitled assholes. And I for one, don't want anymore of them here or anywhere, than there already are.

Life is tough, it sucks, but that's the way it goes. Learning another language is harder the older you get, that's also just the way it goes. 



synrgy said:


> That's where my prejudice comes back in.. It's not so much this specific issue that I'm bothered by, as it is the increasing amounts of exposure the extreme fringes in America are getting these days, and the increasing amounts of pandering the political machine is giving them. Both sides are guilty. I hope you know well enough by now that I'm no Dem lover. My votes more often than not come down to which guy I think is *more* ignorant than the other, understanding that they're both idiots no matter who I choose.



Well the old adage is something like "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". I think that's what's happening lately. The vocal few are *always* the ones getting exposure, be it right or wrong. I think the nastiness from the Republicans and Conservatives comes from a misguided moral compass. They *think* they're doing the right thing, and for themselves, maybe they are, but in doing so, they are dragging a lot of people that disagree with them kicking and screaming. They've also finally figured out that the current crop of Democrats are a bunch of pussies, so they've opted to try and steam-roll them whenever possible and whenever something new comes to the table from Democrats, the Republicans feel their best bet is to just "say no" over and over again till they go away. 

And the worst part is, it's worked. Maybe not in spades, but it's worked for them and so you're seeing a resurgence of "old school" mindset. People are in love with the baby boomer generation post WWII, that golden era of late 40's/50's time when things were going well, family was important, blah blah blah. You know the schpeel, that whole "pleasantville" view of the 50's and how everything was perfect and real life was just like Leave it to Beaver. 

I think the more Democrats and Liberals try to push things through, legislation-wise, regardless of merit, the more the Republicans will continue to push back the other way. Just for the sake of it. Not realizing it's only hurting themselves in the long run. And the longer Democrats let people walk on them, or vacillate on important issues, back down and otherwise acquiesce to the will of their Republican opponents, the longer things will continue as they are.

Does anyone here really believe the two parties are *that* different in terms of getting things done? Who they cater to, or what they'll do to serve their own interests? That's a topic for another discussion I guess.


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

Maybe I'm confused but I spent most of my life in southern california where they have....well, a rather large hispanic non english speaking population and it has never affected me...it has never hampered or hindered me.

I, for one, would rather have foreigners have the ability to assimilate into our country and be able to function by having access to things in their native language until they learn english.

Where I live now there is a huge german population (rocket center of US) and I have no problem if they have all the access they want to documents and such in german until they learn english. The company they work for back home may have sent them and their family to Huntsville to work on a rocket project for 3 years....they have to learn fluent english first? I don't agree


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## gunshow86de (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm going to have to agree with Orb (huge shock to anyone that's seen us post in the same thread in the Politics and Current Events section). Of course, I can't watch the video at work, it may very well be racist. But, strictly from a public safety issue, I think it's a very good idea to have English-only driving tests. Either that, or require every road sign to be in English and in Spanish.


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

oh and just as a reminder....recently a high school math teacher 1/2 an hour away from where I live used assassinating Obama with a rifle to teach his students about angles and trajectory

He was not suspended or fired

This is still a racist state


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> oh and just as a reminder....recently a high school math teacher 1/2 an hour away from where I live used assassinating Obama with a rifle to teach his students about angles and trajectory
> 
> He was not suspended or fired
> 
> This is still a racist state



Is his example a poorly chosen one? Perhaps. Is it inherently racist? No. You're reading into things that you *want* to be there. Let me guess, the teacher was also a part time Klansman too, right? Or an ultra-right wing, militia loving separatist too? 

Would his example for the class be in poor taste if it were George W. Bush? Would it be in poor taste if *he* himself were Black, when using GWB as an example? How about Obama? 

A poor example should be a poor example regardless. Would you be calling Alabama a "racist state" if he were Black and had chosen GWB? Rush Limbaugh? JFK? Justice Sotomayor? Justice Kagan? Someone Gay perhaps? Lesbian? 

Regardless of his chosen example, are students not supposed to learn angles and trajectory? Or is that only when it doesn't involve firearms? Or only when it involves firearms, but not when it involves the killing of someone?


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

Straw man argument is straw man.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Straw Man? I'm using other examples to ask a QUESTION. What part of *that* is a straw man? If he's got clarification on my questions, why don't you let him answer. Unless you're talking to someone else. In which case, carry on.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

No, I'm talking to you. The "if he was FUCKING BLACK WOULD YOU BE SAYING THAT!?" thing has been done to death. For decades.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

For the record, the clearly African-American support of Prop. 8 was bigoted. That kinda shit knows no boundaries. Call a spade a spade. This guy is preying upon the "fear of other people" that prevails in that state and places like it.


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## leonardo7 (Sep 23, 2010)

I know nothing about him or his message and I havent read the whole thread but If you cant read English then how are you supposed to read street signs? If you cant read the street signs then you are a risk to me on the road.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Randy said:


> No, I'm talking to you. The "if he was FUCKING BLACK WOULD YOU BE SAYING THAT!?" thing has been done to death. For decades.



Right, so again, what part of that is a straw man argument? Isn't a straw man argument where someone states something, someone else comes along and instead of attacking what was stated, they in turn attack some other view point that they assert is shared by the first person? 

It's a series of questions Randy, not an attack. I wanted clarification, preferably from him, since he's the one that made the initial statement. I'm not going to make any assumptions about his point of view until he's clarified things. And note that this WAY off topic at this point, so maybe we should drop it and stick to the topic at hand.


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

The reason I say it's racist is because 
#1 The history of this state...church bombings, klan, lynchings, police turning firehoses and attack dogs on law abiding blacks who wanted equal rights, national guard called out after the gov refused to comply with desgregation....so alabama doesn't have history on it's side

#2 I've lived here 6 years and it usually takes about five minutes of talking to someone before they start inserting racist comments casually to judge my reception to them....no I'm not a good ole boy

#3The teacher was not disciplined, indicating an acceptance of his example...please remember any advocation of death to the president is a serious offense. This got more national media attention than local. I only saw one newspaper that picked it up.

#4 It wasn't political because Obama is almost as republican and middle of the road as Bush...but Obama is black, so I truely believe this was racially motivated

Could I be wrong? Maybe...but reread what I just typed and I wouldn't take that bet


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## Origin (Sep 23, 2010)

What the fuck did I just watch? God the south is fucked up.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> The reason I say it's racist is because
> #1 The history of this state...church bombings, klan, lynchings, police turning firehoses and attack dogs on law abiding blacks who wanted equal rights, national guard called out after the gov refused to comply with desgregation....so alabama doesn't have history on it's side
> 
> #2 I've lived here 6 years and it usually takes about five minutes of talking to someone before they start inserting racist comments casually to judge my reception to them....no I'm not a good ole boy
> ...



Thank YOU for clarifying YOUR position. 

I would agree with your first point, the rest I would chalk up to your own views and experiences. And that's fair, nothing wrong with that. Even if I disagree with them to varying degrees.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

orb451 said:


> Straw Man? I'm using *other examples* to ask a QUESTION. What part of *that* is a straw man?





> A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of *having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition* (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]



Yeah, other... you know... inequivalent propositions (err... examples?) to make your point. We don't need a pedantic argument about what a "straw man" is in this thread. I'm just stating that, overall, your point in this thread was to water down the issue until there was nothing discernibly wrong about a _clearly_ fear mongering campaign ad. 

If he were from, you know, another political party... I can't say I would count on you coming in here and typing a book and a half to justify why it's a valid argument.


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## bostjan (Sep 23, 2010)

Anyone here in the USA making an effort to learn English has my respect. Those who do not try to learn English are just here as tourists, and that is fine, but I don't expect that they plan to stay here.

If it was up to me, I would not allow licensing tests, such as driving, to be offered in languages other than those that posted notices are written. Likewise, if I was in China for a visit, I wouldn't expect the Chinese authorities to allow me to drive a car, carry a weapon, or perform skilled work on the infrastructure.

Call me what you will, but I truly believe there are sound reasons to feel this way.

As far as someone from another country coming here to perform unskilled work to make money to send home, I am not thrilled about it, but I sure can't blame the person for doing this. If I could make ten times as much as I make now pulling a level in a factory in Quebec, I would be really tempted to take the opprotunity, wouldn't you n'est pas?


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## JeffFromMtl (Sep 23, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> I'm surrounded by those people...in fact they're looking at me right now
> 
> how about this one......it's for a congressional seat in NORTH CAROLINA


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Randy said:


> Yeah, other... you know... inequivalent propositions (err... examples?) to make your point. We don't need a pedantic argument about what a "straw man" is in this thread. I'm just stating that, overall, your point in this thread was to water down the issue until there was nothing discernibly wrong about a _clearly_ fear mongering campaign ad.
> 
> If he were from, you know, another political party... I can't say I would count on you coming in here and typing a book and a half to justify why it's a valid argument.



No Randy, we do need clarification on what a Straw Man is and isn't because clearly the term, like Red Herring, get's tossed around here willy nilly by people that have no capacity at all to argue or state their case or their opinions. It's that or it's Godwin's Law that gets invoked every time someone is backed into a corner whenever a discussion gets heated.

And you're telling _me_ what _my_ point was in this thread? No, you're telling me what you *think* my point was in this thread. Don't give me _my_ opinion, I've courteously accepted differing views from you and everyone else on this site from the start. When I see someone else's opinion, and I disagree with it, I might ask for clarification. If that raises your "red flags" that's too bad. Whether you like or dislike me, or the fact that I get wordy in my posts does not concern me in the least. If you don't like it, don't read it, my avatar's always been the 8 ball so feel free to just skip past my posts whenever you feel the need. Don't worry I won't be offended.

I will gladly argue with you or anyone else all day long about this guy's "fear mongering". It's fucking laughable. Fear mongering from requiring a test taker to do so in written English as opposed to 12 other different languages? That constitutes fear mongering? Priceless. Is he rounding up immigrants en mass to be shipped to concentration camps? Is he talking at length about the dangers of said immigrants and the inherent _evil_ they _all_ possess? Is he talking about how his race of light skinned Americans are better than, or more *real* than any others?

All of the latter I'd consider fear mongering and silly. Asking people to take a test in English, because at the moment it still remains the USA's primary language is not. At least to me. And it's simultaneously funny and sad, that you think that it is. Just as, to you, I'm sure it's funny and sad that I feel the way I do. Such is life.

Lastly, when the Democrats are doing something worth backing, like repealing the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, I support them. And for the record, I agreed with your sentiment in MY thread about that very issue, as it relates to voting on legislation ONE PIECE AT A TIME. Couldn't agree more with you about that. They should be voted on, on their own merits, and not have things tacked on that create more headaches and stall progress. If you have other examples of Democrats, or their candidates speaking out on various issues, I'd be happy to weigh in with my opinion. I may agree with them, I may not. Same with Republicans, I may agree with some things they say and do, and others have me facepalming hard. 

Such is life.


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## Scar Symmetry (Sep 23, 2010)

While I agree with what he's trying to communicate (albeit very poorly), using it as a campaign ad is fucking idiotic 

Like the pause though, very pensive.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

orb451 said:


> All of the latter I'd consider fear mongering and silly. Asking people to take a test in English, because at the moment it still remains the USA's primary language is not. At least to me. And it's simultaneously funny and sad, that you think that it is. Just as, to you, I'm sure it's funny and said that I feel the way I do. Such is life.



The "fear mongering" is not toward the immigrants, it's instilling fear into the audience that _they need to do something about the immigrants_. I get invites all the time to groups on facebook called stuff like "there's legislation to make Spanish the official language of the US", so-on and so-on. 

Hell, last night I spoke to a woman who, almost out of nowhere said "I HATE OBAMA"! I asked her why... she said "because of him, I have no job and there are no jobs for white people anymore. All they want to hire are illegals and blacks".  Coincidently, guess what state she was from? I'll let you figure that one out. 

The "fear mongering" is telling these people "your language and your finances are in danger because of these people". That's what _my opinion_ on what's being reinforced in this video. Personally, I think he made that rather clear and, in my opinion, you really have to suspend reality to believe it was anything else.

EDIT: To the original matter at hand, I get frustrated dealing with people who don't know English and I think it should be common sense to at least become familiar with the language and then learn it if you're going to live here. That should go without saying. I just don't think it's the most pressing item to campaign on and I think his choice of using it is indicative of the people he's trying to appeal to.


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

here's more alabama goodness....why does he have a rifle? Maybe he just came from seeing his math tutor


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Randy said:


> The "fear mongering" is not toward the immigrants, it's instilling fear into the audience that _they need to do something about the immigrants_. I get invites all the time to groups on facebook called stuff like "there's legislation to make Spanish the official language of the US", so-on and so-on.
> 
> Hell, last night I spoke to a woman who, almost out of nowhere said "I HATE OBAMA"! I asked her why... she said "because of him, I have no job and there are no jobs for white people anymore. All they want to hire are illegals and blacks".  Coincidently, guess what state she was from? I'll let you figure that one out.
> 
> The "fear mongering" is telling these people "your language and your finances are in danger because of these people". That's what's _my opinion_ on what's being reinforced in this video. Personally, I think he made that rather clear and, in my opinion, you really have to suspend reality to believe it was anything else.



Well the first part of your post, about the woman who hates Obama sounds more like someone screwed over yet again by Affirmative Action, another institution we both disagree on.

I really don't see this ad as reinforcing that anti-immigrant mindset, clearly you do though. Clearly your reality and mine differ vastly.


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## Evil7 (Sep 23, 2010)

This guy: 1. Looks like a southern slave owner.
2. Talks like southern redneck country boy.
3. Plans to only make a state drivers test in English only.

Is he racist and dislikes forigners that can't communicate or read road signs?
I would say YES! 
You connect the dots and read between the lines of what is being said.

Road signs and driving safety...... 
Knowing english to make the roads safe seems like a valid argument. 

This video is not racist in content or in the words / idea he is promoting.
You just know he is racist by the nice southern "charm" he has while talking about the issue.

Is he racist? Fuck yeah! IMO
Is the video's information? No


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## Razzy (Sep 23, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> here's more alabama goodness....why does he have a rifle? Maybe he just came from seeing his math tutor




The only thing I noticed was poor trigger discipline.

If you hate Alabama so much, why don't you move? It seems like every post I read of yours says something about Alabama sucking ass. Move to Massachusetts or something.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Yeah no shit, or better yet, move to Canada or Europe, I hear they have no problems...

I keed I keed


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## Scar Symmetry (Sep 23, 2010)

It's official, the UK is problem-free


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> It's official, the UK is problem-free



See that mmr007? PROBLEM FREE! It's utopia!!!! Everyone gets along and everything is awesome!


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

Razzy said:


> The only thing I noticed was poor trigger discipline.
> 
> If you hate Alabama so much, why don't you move? It seems like every post I read of yours says something about Alabama sucking ass. Move to Massachusetts or something.


 
The things I hate about alabama are worth hating....and worth changing.

If I had a job in massachusetts, a house in massachusttes, or family in massachusetts, or friends in massachusstts, or my kids or I had any desire to move to massachusetts...we might just do that


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

move to the UK? If Sarah palin ever becomes president I promise you I will


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

We can split a duplex.


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## synrgy (Sep 23, 2010)

I really don't care for the 'if you don't like it then you can just get out' mentality. Life is _never_ that simple, and I expect all of you to know better than to go there. One step behind that mentality is "they took our jerbs!!"  If it made any sense at all, then *all* the people in.. I dunno.. let's say Detroit? They would just up and move some place that isn't a poverty stricken shit-hole, wouldn't they? Not to mention; Social ignorance doesn't exist in a vacuum, so it would be pointless to move somewhere else to escape it.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

Yes, I believe this man is a racist. There, I said it. Forget the policy itself and whether or not any of us agree with it. I believe the intended topic of discussion was whether or not this video was in any way racist, and I believe it is. To me, it's basically saying "We live in Amurikkka. Gorshdurnitt, say it in Amurikkkin, or go bak to yern own cuntry!"

We *do not* have an *official* language in this country. People seem to forget that. The reason we don't now, and never will, is *deliberate*. Every generation before us -- and plenty of this generation, I hope -- wanted this country to be a melting pot, where anyone could succeed regardless of their social, economic, or national background(s). Discrimination, just generally, is not supposed to be acceptable. Granted, it doesn't group 'language' in with 'race, religion, color or creed', but I feel like it's implied. 

That's all supposed to be 'The American Dream'; to be able to pick ourselves up by our boot-straps and make something of ourselves with the sweat off our brow and using our intellect. 

(That is all clearly just an opinion; *I'm not trying to state it as fact*.)

Generally speaking, a license to drive a car is just shy of being a prerequisite to being a productive member of our society. Not every State provides public transportation, let alone *adequate* public transportation. Shall we start counting off *all* the things we don't seem to want foreign born citizens to have in order to prove that we apparently just don't want 'them' here at all?

The same sense of entitlement that was mentioned in reference to immigrants; White America has it even WORSE. To me, THAT'S what this is about. This douchebag thinks he's entitled to say "Fuck you, this is MY country, and we're speaking MY language in MY country."

I feel that this legislation should not be allowed to even be brought to the table until or unless we -- as a country -- decide to grow a pair and make a *firm* decision about whether or not we have an *official* language. Why should anyone be _required_ to speak a non-official language?

Sidebar: Is he proposing that they need to *speak* English, *read* English, or both? That's not really made clear, and it's a very important distinction to make..

Also as a side, proposing to cut a swathe of jobs state-wide (which is exactly what this proposed idea would do) during a nationwide economic recession seems shockingly stupid to me. "I'm going to improve our unemployment numbers.. by adding to them!" 

Please accept my apologies for the disjointed nature of this post. I have to do my posting between customer phone calls and emails, so I'm frequently hopping on and off the train of thought.


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## IDLE (Sep 23, 2010)

I couldn't believe when I saw that ad on TV. I would laugh if they put it to a vote and it ended up legal, because most people in this state aren't huge assholes like that guy. It seems to be acceptable to run under the envelope of prejudice this election season.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

"Gay Marriage Has Consequences!" 

This tagline intrigues me.


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## mmr007 (Sep 23, 2010)

synrgy said:


> I really don't care for the 'if you don't like it then you can just get out' mentality. Life is _never_ that simple, and I expect all of you to know better than to go there. One step behind that mentality is "they took our jerbs!!"  If it made any sense at all, then *all* the people in.. I dunno.. let's say Detroit? They would just up and move some place that isn't a poverty stricken shit-hole, wouldn't they? Not to mention; Social ignorance doesn't exist in a vacuum, so it would be pointless to move somewhere else to escape it.
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic at hand:
> 
> ...


 
everything just said, could not have been said better


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## groph (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't see what's racist about it, and learning English/Spanish is generally a good idea if you want to move to a country whose two official languages are English and Spanish.

Also the tags this thread has: "dick in sister" "southern inbreeding" do nothing to really help.

EDIT: Alright, apparently there is no federalized official language, but this guy still isn't racist. And also, saying stupid bullshit like "This guy might as well be saying THIS IS MURRIKA, IF YOU DUN LIKE IT THEN YOU CAN GIT OUT YEEEHAW" is just a retarded stereotype of the South and a generalization of all Republicans. It's also a personal attack which really isn't much of an argument at all.


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## eaeolian (Sep 23, 2010)

orb451 said:


> I really don't see this ad as reinforcing that anti-immigrant mindset, clearly you do though. Clearly your reality and mine differ vastly.



Taking his statement out of the context of national (and, I'm sure, state, though I'm not as familiar on that level) politics and strictly semantically parsing it is about as ridiculous as it gets, so you're either naive or willingly blind. Nothing happens in a vacuum, especially in politics, and virtually every political ad is a play on emotion.

Of course, my bet is that you're not really that naive, and you just like to stir up shit in internet forums. But, hey, that's just my reality.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 23, 2010)

You cannot learn English in the U.S, not in the Southern Everyday Life at least. Even the guy on the Link from mmr is clear that this Language is not English 
Joking aside, I agree that people should learn the Language of the country they are moving in. But how many Mexican/Hispanic people live in the south? How can you call a city New Mexico, and await people o speak in American (English) ?LOL

Is the guy Racist "You Betcha"


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 23, 2010)

Man, American campaign ads are so unbelievably gay. Here, we just have a guy sitting there chatting about what they could do for our country, you guys have to make it all emo and shit with cheesy piano backing and dramatic pauses.


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## synrgy (Sep 23, 2010)

groph said:


> And also, saying stupid bullshit like "This guy might as well be saying THIS IS MURRIKA, IF YOU DUN LIKE IT THEN YOU CAN GIT OUT YEEEHAW" is just a retarded stereotype of the South and a generalization of all Republicans. It's also a personal attack which really isn't much of an argument at all.



Okay, first of all, I tried pretty hard to distinguish when I was voicing an opinion (even prefacing it by saying it was my own prejudice) from when I was making an actual point or argument, but you seem to have ignored almost all I said because that little quip bothered you so much.

Now then, let's break it down a little bit. When's the last time YOU heard ANY politician say ANYTHING about the DMV, let alone using a theoretical DMV issue as an actual campaign platform? Can I assume never? I just ask because I've lived in this country my whole life, (won't catch me weighing in on, say, Canadian politics...) and I've never heard it happen before. 

The DMV isn't part of our lives we ever thought of as being a political battleground. It's simply the 7th Circle of Hell where we go to stand in line for 6 hours just to be told nonchalantly that we don't have the correct forms.

Point being, there's a growing xenophobic trend in American media* right now, and to say that this guy's apparent crusade against the DMV translators and the *citizens* they provide services to isn't part of it seems rather obtuse to me. 

So, I'll tell you what: I'll concede that perhaps this guy isn't a racist, but if he isn't a racist himself it's blatantly obvious that he's trying to pander to a xenophobic demographic (Hey, it worked in Delaware!) in order to gain political power for himself, which is arguably even more despicable than being a racist himself.

Let's be clear about DMV rules nationwide: If you're not here legally, you cannot even apply for a license, let alone take any tests. So, that means that the people this guy wants to fuck with are either:

1. US citizens
2. Foreigners here on work visas or employment authorization cards [which means they are here to work a specific job and we REALLY need them -- trust me, it's REALLY difficult to get a work visa if you just want to wait tables or bag groceries for a few years. These people are engineers, scientists, doctors, etc.]
3. Refugees
4. Students
5. Spouses/civil union partners of US citizens

Not even foreigners here legally on tourist visas can get licenses.

Non-US Citizen FAQs - Division of Motor Vehicles, NH DOS

THAT'S who this proposed legislation effects. Not the proverbial fence-hopper who people like this guy are so fired up about, but US Citizens and foreigners who provide us with vital services and reside here legally.

I hate most politicians on principle, but what I really can't stand are the ones who pander to and/or validate the socially regressive agendas of fringe extremists.

The biggest issue for me is still economic: Alabama's unemployment is somewhere around 10%, and this shmuck wants to erase hundreds (possibly thousands?) of jobs across his State? You tell me: How is that a good idea? How are there not more important matters to attend to?





*I would have said 'in America' but recent statistical data (no link at the moment, just something I heard on NPR -- a non-biased source I trust) suggests that the Teahadists account for less than 20% of the population, so the perception that they represent anywhere close to a majority of us is purely due to media coverage.

*edit* Also, I had nothing to do with any of the tags. I agree most of them are uncalled for.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

eaeolian said:


> Taking his statement out of the context of national (and, I'm sure, state, though I'm not as familiar on that level) politics and strictly semantically parsing it is about as ridiculous as it gets, so you're either naive or willingly blind. Nothing happens in a vacuum, especially in politics, and virtually every political ad is a play on emotion.
> 
> Of course, my bet is that you're not really that naive, and you just like to stir up shit in internet forums. But, hey, that's just my reality.



Whatever man, you've attacked me and my views personally in a few threads so I'm fine if the limit of your understanding of our difference of opinion rests on your view, of your reality. It sure seems as though both you and Randy share the same view on threads. That is, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're only obliged to reply if you agree with the subject matter at hand. Which is to say, a discussion is only a discussion if everyone agrees about the topic du jour.


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## orb451 (Sep 23, 2010)

Syn, I really don't think the DMV's requirements for getting a driver's license are as ardently adhered to as you may think. At least as it relates to being a citizen.

I'm sure in some areas they are, but I'd wager that it varies.

And where are you getting all these jobs and unemployment numbers from? I'm not arguing that Alabama may have high unemployment, I can't say, but with respect to your claim that having a DMV test in English will suddenly put hundreds or even thousands statewide out of work, where are you getting that from? Again, I ask out of curiosity and without sarcasm.


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## Origin (Sep 23, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Anyone here in the USA making an effort to learn English has my respect. Those who do not try to learn English are just here as tourists, and that is fine, but I don't expect that they plan to stay here.
> 
> If it was up to me, I would not allow licensing tests, such as driving, to be offered in languages other than those that posted notices are written. Likewise, if I was in China for a visit, I wouldn't expect the Chinese authorities to allow me to drive a car, carry a weapon, or perform skilled work on the infrastructure.
> 
> ...



I forgot the double-standard aspect of expected languages in countries...thank you for reminding me, seriously  okay maybe he's not a DICK for that ad, but who the fuck uses that as a platform?


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## gunshow86de (Sep 23, 2010)

While this doesn't pertain directly to the original topic, I thought it would be worth sharing.

Some of you may know, but I have taken up temporary residence in Missouri for work. I drove up here from Houston, and my favorite hobby on long drives is listening to local talk radio. Now I've lived and worked in some really bigoted East Texas towns before (to give you an idea, they are within a few miles of Jasper), but I have to say central Oklahoma takes the cake for bigoted radio shows (well, in my experience so far). Verbatim, I heard a radio DJ say that "anyone engaged in homosexual behavior (he earlier had clarified that homosexuality is merely a behavior, not a sexuality that someone is born with) should be punished just like inter-venous drug users, because they pose a national health risk." This discussion continued with several callers who did nothing but agree with him. He expressed views on the other social issues of the day (immigration, etc...), but those were sort of expected and rather mild by comparison. After about 20 minutes or so, I had enough and changed the station. Guess who was on the next station? Rush Limbaugh.  The sad part was, after listening to that station, old Rushy almost seemed reasonable.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 23, 2010)

Black people speak English. How the fuck is this ad racist?


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

orb451 said:


> That is, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're only obliged to reply if you agree with the subject matter at hand. Which is to say, a discussion is only a discussion if everyone agrees about the topic du jour.



Negatory. I have little trouble debating, say, RenegadeDave. Your style of arguing involves a LOT of deliberate, willful ignorance ("Gosh, I don't know what the unemployment in Alabama is" when you could've just looked it up, etc.) just to make your point. Parts of what you say are agreeable or something that we can have an intelligent conversation about, and other parts are like... I can't even start to dignify with a response because it's totally from left (or right?)field. 

As is such, I don't like steering these threads too far off-topic, as we usually do... so if you have a point I can debate you on, I'll gladly do it. If not, I won't.


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> Black people speak English. How the fuck is this ad racist?



1.) Not all "black people" speak English

2.) Black and white aren't the only two races on this planet worth considering, you know, especially when you're discussing IMMIGRANTS WHO CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH.


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## eaeolian (Sep 23, 2010)

orb451 said:


> Whatever man, you've attacked me and my views personally in a few threads so I'm fine if the limit of your understanding of our difference of opinion rests on your view, of your reality. It sure seems as though both you and Randy share the same view on threads. That is, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're only obliged to reply if you agree with the subject matter at hand. Which is to say, a discussion is only a discussion if everyone agrees about the topic du jour.



I think it opportunistic politics, so, hey, I don't agree with EITHER side so far. (Kinda deflates your view of me, there, doesn't it?) Creating an issue from a non-issue and using it to play against the prejudices (and fears) of a portion of the population is nothing new, although it seems to be getting increasingly vile - or, at least, the awareness of how common this practice is has been raised.

They jury is out as to the presence of racism in the candidate, at least for me, since I have no data to work with.

I'd have more respect for you if you had just said you agreed with the point, but didn't agree with the method, instead of denying the method exists. In any reality, this ad is an attempt to play on the inherently racist/xenophobic tendencies of human beings, half-hearted attempts at making look like a fiscal issue notwithstanding. We've long since determined, though, that I'm way more cynical about politics than practically everyone in this forum, which is one reason that I only chime in occasionally.

To answer Customisbetter's ridiculously naive remark, anyone can be a racist. I know black, white, Hispanic, and most definitely Japanese people that are incredibly racist.


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

Randy said:


> Negatory. I have little trouble debating, say, RenegadeDave. Your style of arguing involves a LOT of deliberate, willful ignorance ("Gosh, I don't know what the unemployment in Alabama is" when you could've just looked it up, etc.) just to make your point. Parts of what you say are agreeable or something that we can have an intelligent conversation about, and other parts are like... I can't even start to dignify with a response because it's totally from left (or right?)field.
> 
> As is such, I don't like steering these threads too far off-topic, as we usually do... so if you have a point I can debate you on, I'll gladly do it. If not, I won't.



Actually I was going to ask you for the same thing. If there's a point somewhere in any of what I've written that you'd like to debate, I'm open to it. If not, let's let it go.


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

eaeolian said:


> I think it opportunistic politics, so, hey, I don't agree with EITHER side so far. (Kinda deflates your view of me, there, doesn't it?) Creating an issue from a non-issue and using it to play against the prejudices (and fears) of a portion of the population is nothing new, although it seems to be getting increasingly vile - or, at least, the awareness of how common this practice is has been raised.
> 
> They jury is out as to the presence of racism in the candidate, at least for me, since I have no data to work with.
> 
> I'd have more respect for you if you had just said you agreed with the point, but didn't agree with the method, instead of denying the method exists. In any reality, this ad is an attempt to play on the inherently racist/xenophobic tendencies of human beings, half-hearted attempts at making look like a fiscal issue notwithstanding. We've long since determined, though, that I'm way more cynical about politics than practically everyone in this forum, which is one reason that I only chime in occasionally



At one point was I denying the method? You mean his method of what Randy called fear mongering? What you called playing for an emotional response from the audience, or rather playing to people's fears and tendencies. By the way, Eaeolian, you say you're cynical about politics, are you also as cynical about people in general? Do you have no faith in people to interpret *anything* like this and come away with a view that's not their own without thinking they're xenophobes or racists? I ask sincerely. I think what we disagree on, is the degree to which this guy's statements should be taken.

Again, it sounds like some here are reading into this guy's statements quite a bit. That's fine. That's where we disagree I guess. From his ad, and from my line of thinking, this is a *common sense* issue. To some of you, it's tantamount to kicking a hornet's nest that is the immigration (legal or not) issue. 

Mind you, I'm watching this as a minority, and an immigrant. And from some of the responses on here, I know I'm not alone. Now that's not to say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong. To the contrary, I'm just saying that the ad, at face value, doesn't offend me or make me think this guy's *that* far out to lunch with his plan. Sure if this is *the* basis for his campaign, it's pretty weak. That too should go without saying. But I don't think it is. I'm sure he has, or had, other ads noting his stance on other issues, as with most candidates.

Another aspect of politics that's not being talked about is the constant one-up-manship. In California we recently had Meg Whitman and Steve Poizner both attempting to run for the Republicans' nomination for the run for governor. During their run Steve Poizner took a more *hardline* stance on immigration. Saying no amnesty, no nothing to illegal immigrants. Meg Whitman was all the while running her campaign of "me too, me too, I'm just like Steve, I don't support Amnesty, I support SB1070" etc. 

All in an effort to say she was *just* as tough as Steve on illegal immigration. Well, she won the primary and is now fighting former governor Jerry Brown for the office of governor of California. And who'da thunk it, suddenly Meg is saying she's *just* like Jerry Brown on illegal immigration. That she'd NEVER support SB1070 or anything like it California, Amnesty's OK, etc etc. 

So like any candidate, they're willing to say, and do, whatever it takes to get them into office. This ad to me, is more like a soft attempt to make it seem like he's hard on immigrants. I suspect other ads would do the same for their respective issues. Point being, he's doing what he thinks it takes to get him in office. And like the people pissed about Christine O'Donnell and her run in Delaware, no one has a crystal ball, yet everyone is so very sure of all the evil that will be done as soon as they get the power.

Like you said, it's opportunistic politics. And I have no opinion of you Eaeolian, don't flatter yourself. I only see you chime into these kind of threads once in a while and usually it's to voice a quick opinion and maybe tell me how laughable my view point is if anything at all, so it's pretty much all I've come to expect from you in that regard and nothing about what you as a person think or feel regarding an issue.


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> no one has a crystal ball



Actually, she might.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 24, 2010)

eaeolian said:


> To answer Customisbetter's ridiculously naive remark, anyone can be a racist. I know black, white, Hispanic, and most definitely Japanese people that are incredibly racist.


 
I don't think that was his point. His point is that this campaign is against services provided to immigrants with a lack of English skills. The guy wasn't singling out a particular race, just anyone who didn't speak English, which though not the official language of the US, is the most widely spoken. It's like here, we don't allow in immigrants that don't have skills they can offer. That isn't racist, because we're not focusing on a racial aspect, just a skill that can decide how they fit into society. Someone who doesn't speak English and moves to a predominantly English-speaking country is going to be at somewhat of a disadvantage. That's why this ad isn't racist, because it doesn't focus on race.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 24, 2010)

Randy said:


> 1.) Not all "black people" speak English
> 
> 2.) Black and white aren't the only two races on this planet worth considering, you know, especially when you're discussing IMMIGRANTS WHO CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH.



I have yet to meet any "racist" with a southern drawl that only hates non-black races.

EDIT: 

Ross typed it out for me.


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I have yet to meet any "racist" with a southern drawl that only hates non-black races.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Ross typed it out for me.


 
well with respect, just because he doesn't attack all the races he _may_ be against, I repeat _may_, doesn't mean he isn't racist. Yes, blacks speak english so while he isn't going after them in this ad, doesn't mean he isn't still racist overall. He is just choosing his targets carefully. Plus it is more politically correct to attack other races because they they can be considered "alien invaders" and "illegal" even if they aren't, they can be portrayed that way. Blacks are hard to portray as foreigners because they never immigrated here, we brought them in chains and I doubt he wants to revisit that stain on american history

and again, he may not be racist but he knows how to appeal to an electorate that is and is clearly, if not racist, xenophobic without doubt.

remember many politicians flex non core beliefs to get elected....just look at McCain and Romney, two politicians who change their mind because tides have shifted and their base is more extreme therefore they feel they have to be


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## Customisbetter (Sep 24, 2010)

Eh. Its ALL assumption isn't it.


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## synrgy (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> Syn, I really don't think the DMV's requirements for getting a driver's license are as ardently adhered to as you may think. At least as it relates to being a citizen.
> 
> I'm sure in some areas they are, but I'd wager that it varies.
> 
> And where are you getting all these jobs and unemployment numbers from? I'm not arguing that Alabama may have high unemployment, I can't say, but with respect to your claim that having a DMV test in English will suddenly put hundreds or even thousands statewide out of work, where are you getting that from? Again, I ask out of curiosity and without sarcasm.



Seriously? _I provided a link with the claim.._ If you click on the link for the line "Alabama's unemployment is somewhere around 10%", it takes you directly to where I found the data... Here's the link again, since you didn't bother with it the first time.

I'm quickly becoming convinced that you guys don't really read my posts at all. 

On the point of the number of jobs, it was simply intuition, but since you insist on having me re-tread it as if it's not just common sense, here's a random link that lists DMV locations in Alabama that took me 2 seconds to find on Google. I count approximately 80 locations on that list. Unless one wants to convince me that there is only one translator at every location, we're talking about _at least_ a few hundred employees providing translation services for the Alabama DMV.

Further, if we're not talking about hundreds to thousands of employees, then how, exactly, is making this change going to save _so much_ money for the State? You tell me. 

We're nailing it down now; I feel like this is progress.. In terms of the number of jobs related to the State's budget, it HAS to be one or the other:

Option A) There are only a few of these jobs, in which case it won't save the State any significant amount of money, therefore this representative is completely full of shit and the issue is more steeped in bigotry than it is in economics.

Option B) There are enough of these jobs that cutting them would make a significant change to the State's budget, ergo State-wide unemployment would climb at least a couple of percentage points if the jobs were cut, therefore this representative is completely fiscally/economically handicapped. (Unless you want to make the case that adding to unemployment during recession is an economically sound decision? I'm all ears..)

So which is it? That he's full of shit, or that he's an idiot? Not worth defending _either way_, dude.

Your half-hearted counter point about how you 'don't think they regulate those rules at the DMV very much' is _really_ grasping for straws. I must say I'm pretty surprised that you're willingly taking such a glaringly weak stance on that specific point. I provided a link to the policies directly from the National DMV website, and your response is 'oh, I don't think they enforce those rules'?? That's the best you can come up with? Really? We're talking about Federal law here; Not some State law about not being allowed to carry an Alligator in one's handbag or not being allowed to sodomize one's sexual partner.

If you maybe want to assert that there are plenty of non-licensed drivers on the road, I wouldn't argue, but such a point is irrelevant.

I think I've told this story here before, but: On appearances, I'm as blatantly White-Bread American as it gets (Seriously, if I were only a few inches taller I'd physically be a poster boy for the Aryan Nation with my blonde hair and blue eyes..), and when I was mugged (license and social security card both stolen in process) several years ago it took me 2 years to get another ID because they make it THAT difficult to 'prove' you're eligible for licensing. 

My *original* birth certificate that has my fucking *baby foot prints* on it wasn't acceptable because they've apparently changed the notary system since 1980, and I had to present documents with the _new_ notary system to be eligible for identification. Trying to get the newly notarized birth certificate without a photo ID? Almost impossible. Trying to get a photo ID without the birth certificate or social security card? Also impossible. It was a Catch 22 that took me just over 2 years, multiple government agencies, and the physical presence of my then 70 year old father and several of his own identification documents to resolve. And mind you, that wasn't even for a license. It was just for a fucking photo ID.


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> Eh. Its ALL assumption isn't it.



Again, for us who believe the aim of the ad is deliberately racist, that would require a suspension of disbelief to _not_ assume that. I'll give credit to the perspective you and Orb have on this thing and say _maybe_ the ad is to be taken entirely at face value but as far as how it personally resonates, I have to agree with Mike... I can't watch this video in a vacuum outside of the national and state climate which would imply there's more to this than that.

It's no more presumptive to assume there's something more going on in this than just what he says verbatim than it is to assume there's not. No matter how adamant the poster is, anything said in this thread with regard of interpreting the video is _not_ factual... it's opinion and it's subjective. I know that sounds like common sense but going back and reading the last, oh, 2 pages worth I'm noticing the bulk of the debate has devolved into "NO! That's just your opinion" which, well, is just to be assumed. 

TL;DR version: I and some other people find the video to have a racial overtone but YMMV.


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> Eh. Its ALL assumption isn't it.


 
some assumptions are more obvious than others....if you break into my house in the middle of the night, I would assume it's to rob me...I might be wrong, but again, that's a bet i wouldn't make.

These ads are made because the candidates know there is a populace that will be very receptive at a minimum to exhuberant about the message.

The facts are these...within 20 or 30 years, according to the Pew Research Center, whites will be a minority in the US at 47% of the population. There will be the dominant plurality, but still will be outnumbered by all other minorities combined.

We have all been told this ad naseum. That is why you have so many people saying "we need to take our country back"....what they mean is back from what they feel now...threatened by hispanics on every street corner and some black guy from kenya in the white house.

These politicians prey on irrational fears of this situation. You cannot, I repeat cannot look at these ads, speeches or declarations in a vacuum. You must look at the political climate we exist in and from that you can gain insight and understanding to why these candidates make these ads

Syn....yes people look at your posts, but I assume possibly, that many people don't understand what they are looking at


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> It's like here, we don't allow in immigrants that don't have skills they can offer. .



It's the same way here with regard to getting your visa and getting your citizenship. In fact, I'd venture to guess that it'd be nearly impossible to become a citizen without also knowing English.

EDIT: And after a quick search:



> You must be able to speak, read, write, and understand basic English; unless you are at least fifty (50) years of age and have been a lawful permanent resident for at least twenty (20) years; or you are at least fifty-five (55) years of age and have been a lawful permanent resident for at least fifteen (15) years; or you have a permanent physical or developmental disability or mental impairment making it impossible for you to meet the English language requirement.



US Naturalization Requirements


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## eaeolian (Sep 24, 2010)

Randy said:


> Again, for us who believe the aim of the ad is deliberately racist, that would require a suspension of disbelief to _not_ assume that. I'll give credit to the perspective you and Orb have on this thing and say _maybe_ the ad is to be taken entirely at face value but as far as how it personally resonates, I have to agree with Mike... I can't watch this video in a vacuum outside of the national and state climate which would imply there's more to this than that.



I'll stand by my statements about it being naive to view this as anything but an anti-immigrant stance. The racism part is debatable, though as someone with a first-hand knowledge of Southern politics in general, it hard for me to see this as anything but propaganda about brown people that don't speak English.

Oh, and to answer Orb's earlier question, being cynical about people has nothing to do with it: This ad isn't intended to change anyone's mind, so the people that are going to see through it have already done so. That's not who this ad is targeted at - it's targeted at people who already agree with him. I'll bet he's not nearly as malleable in his position as the aforementioned Ms. Whitman, who simply wants to use social issues to be elected the Governor of California so she can represent her real constituency - rich people. That's another political debate, though.


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## eaeolian (Sep 24, 2010)

Randy said:


> It's the same way here with regard to getting your visa and getting your citizenship. In fact, I'd venture to guess that it'd be nearly impossible to become a citizen without also knowing English.



That doesn't mean they can read a DMV test. Hell, sometimes *I* can't read them.


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## synrgy (Sep 24, 2010)

More fun, *blatant* Racism from a current Republican nominee:

Rachel Maddow Show

By direct comparison, the guy wanting to fire all the DMV translators suddenly seems enlightened.


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

synrgy said:


> Seriously? _I provided a link with the claim.._ If you click on the link for the line "Alabama's unemployment is somewhere around 10%", it takes you directly to where I found the data... Here's the link again, since you didn't bother with it the first time.
> 
> I'm quickly becoming convinced that you guys don't really read my posts at all.
> 
> ...



Syn, I do read your posts and I value your opinion and the information you share. Like some others on here, I post while at work. Sometimes I'll be in the middle of something work-wise, whilst trying to read through some of the comments or for that matter post a response. So for that, I apologize. What you're saying and what you've presented are also valid points regarding the unemployment.

I see that, and I understand that yes, if you're cutting jobs during an already weakened local economy, that at face value that in and of itself is *not* a great idea. 

However, I think it's *possible*, that if he cuts the jobs in one area, he *might* be providing jobs in another, unrelated area. Something to balance things out. Maybe not though, in which case, if he's cutting jobs and not adding any, anywhere else, then yeah, that's a bad idea. And I believe the issue he's talking about is the WRITTEN DMV driver's license test. That in Alabama it is currently provided in WRITTEN form, in 12 different languages. I believe what he's saying is that if he's elected, he's going to give the written test in ONE language, English. 

And I'm sorry but yes, if he has a cadre of translators at every DMV that are there solely to communicate with people, that that is shameful. It's wasteful spending. My guess is, the reality is they have a *few* people that speak multiple languages at each location. And this, once again, goes back to immigrants and their expectations. 

Since we both agree now, that the only people getting services at the DMV *should* be legal US citizens. My point about them not enforcing the rules as strongly may seem like grasping at straws outside of California. Rest assured we've had a number of incidents whereby DMV employees were making REAL, AUTHENTIC DMV licenses and selling them to illegal immigrants and other law breakers. Not exactly what you'd call following the rules you linked to. 

That being said though, then the onus should be on *the legal US citizens* to learn the language that is spoken and written by the majority of Americans. How in the christ is that so unfair? The street names are in English, the signs with written words on them are in English, what is the big deal? Note, I've never said that English is the *official* language of the US. I know that it's not, but it's the language spoken by the majority.

And as I said in another post, if that makes me xenophobic and racist, I'm fine with that. I've been called worse. My view is, let all the brown/yellow/green/blue people into the country that you want to. I *want* diversity and I *want* the US to be a melting pot of cultures. I've no problems with that in the least. But for the love all that is holy, if you want to come to this country, do so *legally*. Don't jump across the border and then demand rights and services because you knocked up your wife 5 times so she can sap up tax payer resources while she sits on her mountainous ass watching Telemundo or Sabado Gigante. And *if* you want to be one of those slags, have the god damned common courtesy and common decency to learn the fucking language that the majority of people here speak. 

It's not rocket science.

And amnesty? How's that work again? Millions of people are waiting in line to become citizens the *right* way, paying out the ass to greedy fucking lawyers, jumping through every hoop the government puts up and you want to suddenly change the rules and make it a free-for-all? Yeah that's fucking fair.  So no, no amnesty from my point of view. Fix the fucking broken system, make it so that becoming a lawful, legal US citizen is easier and riddled with less obstacles. Make it so it's cheaper and more affordable, money and time-wise to those applying. And if you're an immigrant coming to this country, just learn the fucking language, don't send all your money straight back across the border to prop up another corrupt and morally bankrupt government and get a job. Oh and don't be a fucking convicted felon. Is that so wholly unreasonable, provided the other parts of our broken system were fixed?

It's quid pro quo.

And I'm not trying water down any issues, I'm speaking about *the* issue at hand. You all see it as xenophobia. As Eeaolian pointed out, it's playing to an audience. And you're right E, the people this ad targets *already* feel the way they do. This *isn't* going to change anyone's minds and isn't much of a campaign platform, I don't think it's meant to be. And I don't see how a simple DMV test being provided in English is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to race or immigration relations. I'm well aware that nothing happens in a vacuum. That's a delightfully insightful thought. I just don't see this one little ad, suddenly causing an uprising or race-war. Nor do I think it's that big of a rallying cry for the "they took err' jobsssss!" crowd. As with just about everything in life, it's subject to interpretation.

The word racist also gets tossed around here like it's going out of style. People really need to revisit the definition and understand that not *every* thing you disagree with is automatically a *racist* statement. Nor is talking about immigration solely about xenophobes vs. non-xenophobes. Nor is disliking Obama or his policies an automatic qualifier for racist tendencies.


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

synrgy said:


> More fun, *blatant* Racism from a current Republican nominee:
> 
> Rachel Maddow Show
> 
> By direct comparison, the guy wanting to fire all the DMV translators suddenly seems enlightened.



And wow, *that* guy is EPIC!!! And for the record, at least having read and watched the excerpts in that video, that guy is waaaaaaaaaaaaay the fuck out to lunch. So no, I couldn't/wouldn't even *try* rationalize or justify those kinds of statements.


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## bostjan (Sep 24, 2010)

Randy said:


> It's the same way here with regard to getting your visa and getting your citizenship. In fact, I'd venture to guess that it'd be nearly impossible to become a citizen without also knowing English.
> 
> EDIT: And after a quick search:
> 
> ...



...and incidentally



> También le examinaran su abilidad para leer, escribir y hablar ingles. Sin embargo, sí en el día de su examen usted tiene más de 50 años de edad y ha sido un residente permanente legal por 20 años ó más, ó sí usted tiene 55 años de edad y ha sido un residente permanente legal por 15 años ó más, no necesitara tomar el examen de ingles. Ademas, también podra hacer toda la entrevista en el idioma que escoja



in spanish

I just thought that was interesting that the requirements are in spanish as well. Not saying that it's a bad idea to do so, in fact, I think that it's good to have them listed this way also.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 24, 2010)

so if you're old and have been here forever (which means you probably understand the english language pretty well by now even if you don't "speak" it to great) then you don't have to take the test...

hmm... sounds like what Mike said... anti-immigration.


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## eaeolian (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> And amnesty? How's that work again? Millions of people are waiting in line to become citizens the *right* way, paying out the ass to greedy fucking lawyers, jumping through every hoop the government puts up and you want to suddenly change the rules and make it a free-for-all? Yeah that's fucking fair.  So no, no amnesty from my point of view. Fix the fucking broken system, make it so that becoming a lawful, legal US citizen is easier and riddled with less obstacles. Make it so it's cheaper and more affordable, money and time-wise to those applying. And if you're an immigrant coming to this country, just learn the fucking language, don't send all your money straight back across the border to prop up another corrupt and morally bankrupt government and get a job. Oh and don't be a fucking convicted felon. Is that so wholly unreasonable, provided the other parts of our broken system were fixed?



Until you remove the incentive - i.e., getting a job without documentation is easy, and employers like it because they're not subject to labor laws so it's cheaper - you will not fix the illegal problem. Period. It's the elephant in the room no one wants to see - companies (especially major corporations) like hiring illegals because it helps the bottom line.

I've been on record many times stating that the way to fix this problem is simple: the fine for hiring an illegal alien in the United States is 1% of the gross receipts (not profits, cash intake) of the employer PER ILLEGAL HIRED, and those fines go to pay for the enforcement of the law and nothing else.

Simple, effective - one major corporation might be put out of business, but the point would be made.

Anyway, I digress. This ad is racist, but subtly so. Certainly nowhere near as blatantly as the one in the Maddow clip. Yowza.


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

eaeolian said:


> Until you remove the incentive - i.e., getting a job without documentation is easy, and employers like it because they're not subject to labor laws so it's cheaper - you will not fix the illegal problem. Period. It's the elephant in the room no one wants to see - companies (especially major corporations) like hiring illegals because it helps the bottom line.



We agree then to an extent. I see that elephant and I acknowledge that US employers are *partly* to blame and *should* be held strictly accountable. Your penalties sound reasonable, if a little light. To me, I'd go balls to the walls with them. 1 strike and you're out. The feds come in and find undocumented illegal aliens working there? I don't care if it's 1 person or a 100, the company gets shut down, business license revoked, and the liquidation of assets, pensions and CEO golden parachutes go towards immigration reform and enforcement.

But yeah, that's not fucking likely to happen in this lifetime or the next so...

Also note that it is and has been illegal for ANY companies to employ illegal aliens for decades. It's just that the laws haven't been enforced. Sure in recent years there's been a *few* token raids, but come on, it's a numbers game. Like the drug trade, for every successful seizure, there's countless others that slip by. Same with companies and hiring illegal immigrants. Go to any Home Depot in SoCal for examples of how *thoroughly* the law is enforced.

EDIT: Point being, immigration reform or *fixing* the system, is more than just *one* thing. It's a big problem that needs a multifaceted attack in order to solve it effectively and permanently.


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## synrgy (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> And I believe the issue he's talking about is the WRITTEN DMV driver's license test. That in Alabama it is currently provided in WRITTEN form, in 12 different languages. I believe what he's saying is that if he's elected, he's going to give the written test in ONE language, English.



If that's the case, I don't find it nearly as offensive as I would otherwise. If one can't read our street signs, one shouldn't be on our roads. I feel that he does himself a great disservice by not making this point _abundantly_ clear. Then again, back to the pandering issue, he probably doesn't want that point made clear. Too logical; not divisive enough for the campaign trail..



orb451 said:


> And I'm sorry but yes, if he has a cadre of translators at every DMV that are there solely to communicate with people, that that is shameful. It's wasteful spending. My guess is, the reality is they have a *few* people that speak multiple languages at each location. And this, once again, goes back to immigrants and their expectations.
> 
> Since we both agree now, that the only people getting services at the DMV *should* be legal US citizens. My point about them not enforcing the rules as strongly may seem like grasping at straws outside of California. Rest assured we've had a number of incidents whereby DMV employees were making REAL, AUTHENTIC DMV licenses and selling them to illegal immigrants and other law breakers. Not exactly what you'd call following the rules you linked to.



Actually, it would seem we don't agree, exactly. I never said *only* US Citizens. Others on the eligible list as I pointed out include non-citizens here on work or student visas, and also includes refugees. All of the above are people I don't feel fair to discriminate against based on the language they speak. They're here to do a job we need them for, or to escape political/social tyranny elsewhere. 

Therein lies my biggest problem with this proposed legislation. Let's just say as a hypothetical example that we have a guy here on a work visa from Lithuania, and he's a non-English-speaking medical scientist who's working on cure for Cancer or AIDS or some such. Do you believe he shouldn't be able to drive to and from the job we hired him for just because he doesn't speak our language? That's the point I'm trying to hammer home; this legislation doesn't have anything to do with the stereotypical immigrants that so much of our country is angry with currently.



orb451 said:


> That being said though, then the onus should be on *the legal US citizens* to learn the language that is spoken and written by the majority of Americans. How in the christ is that so unfair? The street names are in English, the signs with written words on them are in English, what is the big deal? Note, I've never said that English is the *official* language of the US. I know that it's not, but it's the language spoken by the majority.



This is the point we're mostly agreed on, and I'll re-state it: If one can't read our street signs, one shouldn't be allowed to drive here.



orb451 said:


> And as I said in another post, if that makes me xenophobic and racist, I'm fine with that. I've been called worse. My view is, let all the brown/yellow/green/blue people into the country that you want to. I *want* diversity and I *want* the US to be a melting pot of cultures. I've no problems with that in the least. But for the love all that is holy, if you want to come to this country, do so *legally*. Don't jump across the border and then demand rights and services because you knocked up your wife 5 times so she can sap up tax payer resources while she sits on her mountainous ass watching Telemundo or Sabado Gigante. And *if* you want to be one of those slags, have the god damned common courtesy and common decency to learn the fucking language that the majority of people here speak.



Here's where I'm taking issue. I don't think you're a xenophobe, but most of what you've written in that quote is the same incorrect mentality as what's behind this guy's campaign video. The "border jumpers" aren't who this proposed legislation effects, as they aren't even eligible to apply for a license in the first place. Granted, as you've pointed out, some DMV employees may illegally sell or otherwise provide non-eligible applicants with licenses, but that removes the test from the equation altogether, which even further removes any relevance the proposed legislation may have actually had. I feel like the more we discuss this, the more ridiculous/pointless the proposed legislation seems to be.

We're also not taking into account that nobody learns a language overnight. **IF** (it's a big if) someone can read our street signs, is qualified to drive, AND is taking English courses but has not yet _finished_ learning English, should we be discriminating against them?

I think part of the problem is that when these topics come up we all start thinking specifically about southern border jumpers, when in reality it effects ALL KINDS of legal immigrants and temporary residents: Koreans, Japanese, Russian, Indian, Nigerian, etc etc etc. They literally _can't_ "hop borders" because they aren't coming from bordering countries.



orb451 said:


> And amnesty? How's that work again? Millions of people are waiting in line to become citizens the *right* way, paying out the ass to greedy fucking lawyers, jumping through every hoop the government puts up and you want to suddenly change the rules and make it a free-for-all? Yeah that's fucking fair.  So no, no amnesty from my point of view. Fix the fucking broken system, make it so that becoming a lawful, legal US citizen is easier and riddled with less obstacles. Make it so it's cheaper and more affordable, money and time-wise to those applying. And if you're an immigrant coming to this country, just learn the fucking language, don't send all your money straight back across the border to prop up another corrupt and morally bankrupt government and get a job. Oh and don't be a fucking convicted felon. Is that so wholly unreasonable, provided the other parts of our broken system were fixed?



Respectfully, I feel like that's equivocating. Where the hell did the topic of Amnesty come from? What are we talking about here? I'm not going to address those points because I feel like it's another discussion for another thread.



orb451 said:


> And I'm not trying water down any issues, I'm speaking about *the* issue at hand. You all see it as xenophobia. As Eeaolian pointed out, it's playing to an audience. And you're right E, the people this ad targets *already* feel the way they do. This *isn't* going to change anyone's minds and isn't much of a campaign platform, I don't think it's meant to be. And I don't see how a simple DMV test being provided in English is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to race or immigration relations. I'm well aware that nothing happens in a vacuum. That's a delightfully insightful thought. I just don't see this one little ad, suddenly causing an uprising or race-war. Nor do I think it's that big of a rallying cry for the "they took err' jobsssss!" crowd. As with just about everything in life, it's subject to interpretation.
> 
> The word racist also gets tossed around here like it's going out of style. People really need to revisit the definition and understand that not *every* thing you disagree with is automatically a *racist* statement. Nor is talking about immigration solely about xenophobes vs. non-xenophobes. Nor is disliking Obama or his policies an automatic qualifier for racist tendencies.



More or less, we agree on these points. Where I take _slight_ exception is in regards to 'disliking Obama or his policies': I think most of us who have used the word racist in relation to anti-Obama propaganda have been referencing not any gripes with his actual policies (which, by the way, seem to be relatively rare) but with people saying he's a 'secret Muslim' or 'wasn't born in America', etc etc. If not racist, such sentiments are certainly bigoted, and I don't think you could reasonably disagree with me on that. I think I've seen quite a few threads already where most of us who you identify as being 'liberal' are happy have any reasonable policy debates, but usually political debates have a tendency to forgo policy in favor of hot-button social issues. (Not pointing a finger at you on that score; just the populous in general.)


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## Tones (Sep 24, 2010)

i heard you get a free gun and a beer if you vote for him


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## bostjan (Sep 24, 2010)

I think if the guy is about to discover the cure for AIDS or cancer, and doesn't speak a word of english, he should have a chaperone and a bodyguard, not be driving himself around.


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

synrgy said:


> More fun, *blatant* Racism from a current Republican nominee:
> 
> Rachel Maddow Show
> 
> By direct comparison, the guy wanting to fire all the DMV translators suddenly seems enlightened.


 
Jim RUSSELL? Doubt it...more like Jim Himmler...probably changed his last name after his grandfather commited suicide after the allies captured him

did you know there is more variation in DNA between two non related white people than between non related white and black people?


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

Syn, rather than quote your response (which I appreciate by the way), I'll just say that the amnesty thing comes up (to me at least) because we're talking about immigrants. Regardless of where they're from, if they're coming here, I feel like they should learn the language and amnesty for *illegal* immigrants is part of the immigration equation as a whole.

That said, I think we have some common ground on some of the points above. I agree, that if a person is here, driving on our roads, they should be able to read the signs. And yeah I'd actually be cool with it if they were in the *process* of learning English and had passed some *bare* minimum comprehension tests before getting to the license test. 

Next, regarding the immigrant example from countries *other* than South of our borders, I think most student and H1B Visas are explicitly granted to skilled labor or for "white collar" jobs. Now maybe it's just a positive stereotype, but I'd think anyone granted an H1B or here in the US to do some kind of professional work would be able to speak, read and write English and could probably hand me my own ass with respect to spelling and grammatical proficiency. Point is, if he's here to cure AIDS, and he's *that* smart, I doubt he/she would not be familiar with English, either spoken or written. Maybe he speaks like Borat, but I think he could 'get er' done'. And no, honestly I don't want *anyone* on our roads that doesn't understand what the signs mean. Whether it's to cure AIDS or invent a better lightbulb, he's a danger to himself and others if he doesn't understand what's going on. And would do us all better ALIVE than DEAD or embroiled in some kind of traffic accident litigation. So if that means he gets a private driver and 24/7 security, so be it. But yeah, that's taking the example too far into fantasy land, hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying. 

For those seeking asylum though, that's a tricky situation. As are the rest of poor and unskilled (professionally/white-collar-wise) workers. And I'd agree that learning the language for those folks *is* an ongoing and grueling process, or at least it can be. However, I still feel like we've made a LOT of effort at the state and federal levels to accommodate these folks. And I feel like what we've done is just made it easier for them to continue speaking their own language whilst ignoring what is arguably, ours. Them learning English is a win-win for them *and* us. And I don't feel like it's xenophobic at face value to want or expect them to learn English. And I don't expect them to become writers and English professors, nor do I care what they do amongst family, friends or in their homes with respect to language and customs. I only care about if/when they come to the government (state or federal) to exercise rights or privileges.


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## groph (Sep 24, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> Jim RUSSELL? Doubt it...more like Jim Himmler...probably changed his last name after his grandfather commited suicide after the allies captured him
> 
> *did you know there is more variation in DNA between two non related white people than between non related white and black people*?


 
No, but what's your point?


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## Scar Symmetry (Sep 24, 2010)

Jesus Christ guys, chill the fuck out


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Jesus Christ guys, chill the fuck out



Dave are you woefully unaware of the Friday Night Fights policy of ss.org???


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## eaeolian (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> We agree then to an extent. I see that elephant and I acknowledge that US employers are *partly* to blame and *should* be held strictly accountable. Your penalties sound reasonable, if a little light. To me, I'd go balls to the walls with them. 1 strike and you're out. The feds come in and find undocumented illegal aliens working there? I don't care if it's 1 person or a 100, the company gets shut down, business license revoked, and the liquidation of assets, pensions and CEO golden parachutes go towards immigration reform and enforcement.



That gives too much Fed enforcement power, and has to potential to get hung up in court forever. Fines are straightforward. Let a Fortune 500 company get caught employing 50 illegals and the stockholders and officers of every corporation in the U.S. will make absolutely sure it never happens. After all, if it was Wal*Mart, what would the fine be? Roughly $254 *billion* dollars. I think that's a pretty strong disincentive, don't you?



orb451 said:


> But yeah, that's not fucking likely to happen in this lifetime or the next so...



True, but wouldn't it be nice?


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

eaeolian said:


> Roughly $254 *billion* dollars. I think that's a pretty strong disincentive, don't you?



Yes sir, that's a GRIP of cash. I could foresee the PHB's setting up whole subcommittees and departments whose sole purpose in life is to maintain compliance. Damned well ought to be that way too. Then again, I don't know how much Wally World brings in annually or in the last 10 years as an example. Might make $254 Billion seem like chump change... 



eaeolian said:


> True, but wouldn't it be nice?



Fuck yeah!


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## synrgy (Sep 24, 2010)

Dave, this is just kinda what Orb and I do. It may look bad to some of you, but to us it's becoming a valued respite from our daily jobs to come here and have some good discussion with somebody who knows how to share an opposing viewpoint without making it personal, and I assure you all that for my part there is never any ill will. That said, if our discussions bother any of you I'm sure we could take it to PM in the future.



orb451 said:


> yadda yadda (not edited to poke fun, but to save space)



Noted. I didn't mean to imply that it came completely out of left field -- I get the correlation -- just that the amnesty issue is a broader subject than what we're discussing here; one that could have snowballed very quickly into something more ugly if previous threads are any indication. 

I'm sure you realize my hypothetical AIDS-curing-doctor was just an extreme example to illustrate the point about this DMV legislation not being in any way related to the stereotypical illegal immigrants so many are so fired up about. You hit the nail on the head about the white collar jobs, and that was exactly my point; those affected by the proposed legislation aren't undocumented janitors, farm workers, kitchen staff, etc. Undocumented = Ineligible for license = Moot Point.

So I know we've gone all over the place here and I thought a little summation might be good:

We agree that to be on our roads, one needs to be able to read and comprehend our signs. That's common sense, really.* 

For my part, that still doesn't justify why it should be *required* for someone to take an test in their second language if we have infrastructure in place to provide them a test in their first language. Honestly, almost ALL of our street signs are based on Universal symbols more-so than English text, so as long as they _pass_ the test, that means they comprehend the signs, so fuck it, right?

I don't _fully_ agree with your position on citizens learning to speak our language, but that's okay. We won't agree on everything. Where I feel that it would be _admirable_ and _wise_ for an immigrant to learn English, I just don't feel it's right to _require_ them to do so. If I want to move to Japan and be ignorant of their language and culture the whole time I'm there, that ought to be my prerogative. Should I expect people to think I'm an asshole while I do it? Probably, but that doesn't change the basic human right to find my happiness how I see fit, _barring harm to other's persons or rights_ of course.

All that aside, I guess my final thought on this is that (and again, this is me harboring my own prejudices) this man is very likely to *not* be a 'we're all human family' kind of guy, because if he were I don't think he'd have taken up this position or made this video; He would have found more pressing and less divisive issues to campaign on. Unfortunately, as we all know, real issues don't win elections any more.

Maybe I'm going too far in presuming he's likely a racist, but when you do the social math [Alabama + Republican Candidate in the year of the Teahadists + "In my country you speak my language" attitude] I'm sure you can understand how it's difficult to avoid trying to connect the dots. I mean, you know as well as I do that there's never any such thing as 'face-value' in American politics. (And yes, I believe hidden agendas are a fully bipartisan problem.) Point being, I don't believe in any middle ground between the mentalities of "We're all human family" and "Other races are inferior to mine". Since he has to be one or the other in my mind, based on the evidence presented, I still have to say I think he's likely a racist.

Finally, I love that I never feel like I'm _arguing_ with you so much as I feel like we work together to find the middle ground. 



*As a side, for this very reason I feel like they need to be cracking down a bit on requirements for senior-drivers. I'd put a wink there because it's mildly funny, but I'm actually being serious.


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

^^And there it is Syn, the *reason* I love this place. Because we *can* have a heated discussion, come to some agreements and some disagreements and it doesn't devolve into a shit slinging festival. 

I won't comment on the rest and for once, keep this short and sweet. I agree a bit and I disagree a bit, no harm, no foul


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

groph said:


> No, but what's your point?


 
that racism is nonsensical. It assumes one race is superior to another and yet the dna diff between members of the same race is greater than that between diff races...that's all. Kinda straight forward

It makes it difficult for one race to claim some sort of "natural" superiority over another. now if the racism is simply based on cultural differences then that's an entirely diff kind of idiot


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> that racism is nonsensical. It assumes one race is superior to another and yet the dna diff between members of the same race is greater than that between diff races...that's all. Kinda straight forward
> 
> It makes it difficult for one race to claim some sort of "natural" superiority over another. now if the racism is simply based on cultural differences then that's an entirely diff kind of idiot



I thought, using White Power advocates as an example, that they'd long ago given up on the whole "Whites are genetically *superior* to other races" schtick, no? I thought they adapted a broader "Well, minorities exist, *that* is why we hate the fuckers" kind of mentality because they finally figured out that there was no overwhelming genetic evidence to support their claims.


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## Scar Symmetry (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> ^^And there it is Syn, the *reason* I love this place. Because we *can* have a heated discussion, come to some agreements and some disagreements and it doesn't devolve into a shit slinging festival.



No we fucking can't!


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

orb451 said:


> I thought, using White Power advocates as an example, that they'd long ago given up on the whole "Whites are genetically *superior* to other races" schtick, no? I thought they adapted a broader "Well, minorities exist, *that* is why we hate the fuckers" kind of mentality because they finally figured out that there was no overwhelming genetic evidence to support their claims.


 
I don't know that they've ever looked at overwhelming evidence of anything...hence their ignorance. But point taken in some cases. That's why I acknowledge that there are cultural racists....racists come in all shapes and sizes, but they eventually find their way to alabama whatever their root cause of ignorance


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> No we fucking can't!



Oh Dave, always the most caring and understanding


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> I don't know that they've ever looked at overwhelming evidence of anything...hence their ignorance. But point taken in some cases. That's why I acknowledge that there are cultural racists....racists come in all shapes and sizes, but they eventually find their way to alabama whatever their root cause of ignorance



No seriously, I thought they'd had some "pseudo-science" at one point or another in their historical beliefs like "Negroids have, on average, a smaller cranial cavity, thus allowing for a smaller brain, thus allowing for a decreased intellectual capacity" and things like that. Granted it's always been a bunch of bullshit, but I thought at one point that and things like it were as *close* as they'd come to having actual *evidence* to back up their nonsense.

And man you've got a dim view of Alabama. Your experiences are yours and I'm not discrediting or discounting them but from what you've described it sounds like it's pretty bad there... and that sucks for all involved.


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm a malcontent with a dim view of everything...jk

actually, there are wonderful things about alabama. We have tons of tornados, poisonous snakes, 100 degree weather in October, more humidity than a pigs armpit, spiders the size of hula hoops, etc....

But it has it's cool parts too. I live in a beautiful place, low crime, no traffic.

Back in Long Beach California my kids school got put on lockdown because a sherriffs deputy got shot in the face and killed by a gang member on school property

Here in alabama my kids school got put on lock down because a 13 year old kid was hunting squirrels with a air soft pellet gun on a nearby golf course....just a different world


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

and honestly, you've just caught me at a bad time in my life with my feelings towards alabama because I've got a court date coming up soon....my ex is trying to throw me in jail because I broke the law by having a woman I was dating for 9 months spend the night, but we aren't married and that is illegal here. So, alabama and it's "what would jesus do?" attitude is on my nerves right now


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> Back in Long Beach California my kids school got put on lockdown because a sherriffs deputy got shot in the face and killed by a gang member on school property



Sorry to hear about your legal woes, that is unarguably, to me anyway, a bunch of horseshit. What you do in your home amongst consenting adults is YOUR business. No one else's.

And what part of LBC did you live in? I've lived there for the last 10 years... A few years in North LBC across from Jordan High (delightful neighborhood) as 
well as South LBC by Redondo and Anaheim (another wonderful area).


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

I technically lived in Lakewood, just south of the cerritos auto square...it's a nice area, but also not far from hawaiian gardens which, as you know is not so great

I don't want to hijack this thread but DAMNIT I miss El Pollo Loco more than anything...that is what I miss about cali...we don't get that here. Everything has to be double fried before it's served


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> I technically lived in Lakewood, just south of the cerritos auto square...it's a nice area, but also not far from hawaiian gardens which, as you know is not so great
> 
> I don't want to hijack this thread but DAMNIT I miss El Pollo Loco more than anything...that is what I miss about cali...we don't get that here. Everything has to be double fried before it's served



Cool  I have friends in and around Lakewood, and yeah HG is no joke... Pollo Loco ftw 

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread/discussion/war...


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## kmanick (Sep 24, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I love how i never have to type much in these threads because Orb does the typing for me.


 
^ this


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## mmr007 (Sep 24, 2010)

well this will get it going, check this shit out and yes he is a real candidate



here's his website...it doesn't get worse or more racist than this

Dan Fanelli For Congress


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## Cabinet (Sep 24, 2010)

What an intelligent and reasonable human being. He's obviously up to par with the reality of these situations and doesn't take shit from anyone, being able to see right to their core just by judging their skin color!

Fanelli for God, 2012 may he save us


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## orb451 (Sep 24, 2010)

Yeah that video's a good facepalmer alright. Give it a 9.8 on the facepalm scale.

And it's so over the top it *almost* seems like an SNL skit. I was actually laughing while watching. Maybe I should have been crying instead


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 24, 2010)

To be fair on him, the guy on the left didn't look like a terrorist.


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## Xaios (Sep 24, 2010)

Actually, Dan Fanelli, neither of them look like terrorists. They both look like ACTORS.

Just one odd little bit I want to add, regarding that guy who was talking about racial segregation. I have a friend who lived here for about a year, she moved from Vancouver Island to the Yukon for an internship. Anyone from BC knows that Vancouver Island is where all the most liberal people in Canada are bred, aside from maybe the Kootenays. However, this girl, while quite liberal, was also a poli-sci major and VERY smart (not to mention quite gorgeous, charming and cultured; I would sweep her away in a second if I had the chance). As far as our discussions went, we were often yin to each other's yang. However, we both respected each other because we could back up our talk, and we were also really good friends otherwise.

This is all leading up to say that, despite the liberal environment that this girl came from, and despite her views on a great many things that meshed perfectly with the left-leaning society, she had one particular view that flat out went exactly the other way. She never told this to anyone else, because she knew they would never understand, but she believed heavily in Endogamy, that being a cultural "birds of a feather" mindset in which people of a given ethnic group grow up, marry and live within that group for the rest of their lives, the same "tribe" as it were. While I'm not saying this is the only factor, I think at least part of this stems from the fact that she was of 100% german decent, but living in a land that values multiculturalism as highly as Canada does and interacting regularly with people of other cultures is simply unavoidable.

I can't remember how we got on this discussion, but I only found out about that particular view a few months after she left the Yukon and went back to BC, while we were talking on Facebook. I remember I had to pry it out of her, and that she was only barely willing to tell me, despite the fact that, on the outside with my fairly conservative outlook, I would appear to be the person to most sympathize with that point of view (even though I really don't). So I knew that she realized the relative irrationality of that particular belief, because she took pains to make sure that no one knew she felt that way, but she felt that way all the same.

All this to say, the feeling that people should be separated by race and culture is not one borne solely of political factors or even general outlook. When I hear that video, I most certainly am horrified at the obvious bigotry he portrays. However, knowing what I know about my friend, simply looking at the underlying fact of the matter, I get the feeling that there may be more than just racist smoke and mirrors to that particular issue. I don't think it's something that should define us, like that crazy nutjob Jim Russell, but I think it's possible that there is some sort of genetic mechanism built into people with the specific function of keeping us bound to our culture, and that even if it's not adhered to, it's not something to be ignored.



And actually, watching that video, I'd be more inclined to think the guy on the left in the white was a terrorist, one of the "evil KGB mind control scientist" type dudes.


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## Holy Katana (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm so thankful I got the fuck out of Alabama. I had to spend my first ten years there. I don't know if I'd be allowed in today.


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## scherzo1928 (Sep 24, 2010)

So, after finally reading all of the posts, I would like to add my 2 cents, from an outsiders point of view.

First of all. Not understanding English (or any language foreign to you) well enough to pass a test, with entire walls of text as questions is one thing. Not understanding a street sign, or situation on the road is another. 

for example: "Qué se debe de hacer si un ciego intenta cruzar el camino"
I'm asking what should you do If a blind person wants to cross a road. You dont need to understand the language to know what to do.

Then there are the signs:

english stop sign:






spanish stop sign:





english yield sign:




spanish yield sign:





They really are UNIVERSAL signs. You don't make road signs with 100 words, since then you take your attention off the roads!!

Even If you dont know how to pronounce the name of a street, you can still know if it's the street your are looking for. (And there are dozens of languages using the same alphabet.)

I think the main thing that irritates me about the video in the OP, is that THAT is what he is using to get votes. *I mean, he could be saying...* *If you are driving completely wasted and kill a band member of Unearth (RIP, but I need to use this example) you will get more than 6 months in Jail.*


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 26, 2010)

Xaios said:


> Actually, Dan Fanelli, neither of them look like terrorists. They both look like ACTORS.


 
The other guy does look a little well-built, maybe he was a terrorist on 24.


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## groph (Oct 1, 2010)

mmr007 said:


> I don't know that they've ever looked at overwhelming evidence of anything...hence their ignorance. But point taken in some cases. That's why I acknowledge that there are cultural racists....racists come in all shapes and sizes, but they eventually find their way to alabama whatever their root cause of ignorance


 
A CULTURAL racist? That would be a "culturist", which I'd assume would be somebody who thinks that their culture is superior to all others. That term probably doesn't even exist.

Racism is only racism if there's an implication that there is a superior race/inferior race based solely on differences due to racial background. Segregation in the US was racist, blacks were treated differently because the general consensus (for lack of a better term) still believed that blacks were somehow inferior people, I'm sure you know the story. Segregation is an example of institutionalized (built into the system and normalized) racism. The Holocaust is probably the "best" example of racism, because Hitler believed very clearly that the Aryan race was superior to ALL others, and of course he took it to the point of killing 11-17 million people.

I feel like I'm splitting hairs, and I've said this before, but I really hate it when people misuse the word "racism". Even addressing somebody as a racial slur isn't racist per se. Yeah, most people who would do that probably have some kind of uneducated opinion of the group of people they feel they must degrade for whatever reason, but they're only racist if they believe that there are differences between races that justify calling one superior or inferior. 


Racism - from Dictionary.com

*noun *
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

So #3 kind of goes against what I said because it includes intolerance of other races as being racist, but Dictionary.com is not the king of dictionaries, and intolerance of other races is just bigotry.

In my opinion, the fact that "racism" is often mis-used only serves to cheapen the word and take away from the horrible thing racism actually is. I'm also kind of angry that schools teach the wrong definition of racism. If they called it "bigotry" then that would be fine. "Racism" is just a strong word with powerful implications so I don't think it should be thrown around.

Now, if this guy in the commercial was acting under the basis of racism, then yes he's racist, but the commercial doesn't go into enough depth for people to jump to that conclusion based on the commercial alone.


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## Xaios (Oct 1, 2010)




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