# Fans of Big Iron, Gather Here



## budda (Jul 6, 2018)

I don't think we have a thread quite like this, so I thought I'd start one.

What drew you to high wattage rigs? What's your current high power tower? What have you tried that others in various genres might want to know about?

I've always enjoyed 100W amps, and never really spent time with anything less than "80W" (Traynor 212, awfully quiet). I've had various high gain amps but currently run a stock '83 JCM800 2203. I keep toying with the idea of a 12AT7 etc in the preamp, or switching to 6550's and new iron when my current OT finally gives up (hopefully I have a couple of years there). I run the amp clean as a pedal platform. We play "Post-hardcore" but we just call it spacey punk .

My experience in personally trying out high powered heads is pretty small. I did see a Mesa Coliseum for sale in Toronto a year or so ago for a good price but alas, I couldn't get it. When we were tracking LP3 in March, the studio has a Louis Electronics "woodstock JH plexi" (my name, not theirs) and that thing is the loudest head I've ever heard in person. It was awesome, and made our cranked 2203's sound relatively tame. It was on 1.5 IIRC .

I do hope to try an Orange Thunderverb and Dr. Z Surgical Steel at some point. I'm not sure if it would replace my JCM800 but I'm open to the idea, relatively.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 6, 2018)

I just dig the extra headroom.  I like the coloration a tube power amp gives, but once it starts to break up a bit too hard, then it muddles up the sound for me. Plus I have a Torpedo Live, so I can use high-wattage rigs without waking the neighbors. 

Although I still dig my 85w Mark III Simul-Class and would love to get an 85-watt Mark IV. One day, a 100w JP2C. One. Day.  

And hell yeah, I'd love a Mark III Coliseum as well.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2018)

I present "Gizmo"


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## Shoeless_jose (Jul 6, 2018)

budda said:


> I present "Gizmo"




Looks awesome!!! CSA model too haha.


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## MASS DEFECT (Jul 6, 2018)

Are the Marshall JVM 100w as loud as the JCM800s? Seems like there is more preamp distortion with the JVMs vs the 800s.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2018)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Are the Marshall JVM 100w as loud as the JCM800s? Seems like there is more preamp distortion with the JVMs vs the 800s.



The 800's may seem louder due to voicing, but that is entirely speculation. I have never a/b'd.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 6, 2018)

budda said:


> The 800's may seem louder due to voicing, but that is entirely speculation. I have never a/b'd.



I think JCMs are louder than they're rated.


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## NorCal_Val (Jul 6, 2018)

Mesa Triple Rectifier(2 ch. version ‘97)
Rivera M100(x2)
5150(script)
Ampeg/Lee Jackson VL 1002
The headroom(especially with 8 strings) is necessary. But I picked the amps based on how they sound.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 6, 2018)

I don’t even bother with anything but 100-150 watters...I’ve finally settled on a Peavey XXX, (2) 3120’s, a Mesa rackmount Mark IV. If I need whisper quiet I’ll plug my headphones into one of my preamps. Some 50 watters rival some triple digit heads but I like having the bigger bottom and higher headroom when I need it. Lunchbox and small watt heads just don’t have the guts for my preference of pushing a watt-hungry 412 cab (if not two)...


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## NateFalcon (Jul 6, 2018)

I’d love a Mesa Coliseum 300 to power my Digiech 2101 and Rocktron Chameleon into 2-412 cabs


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 6, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I don’t even bother with anything but 100-150 watters...I’ve finally settled on a Peavey XXX, (2) 3120’s, a Mesa rackmount Mark IV. If I need whisper quiet I’ll plug my headphones into one of my preamps. Some 50 watters rival some triple digit heads but I like having the bigger bottom and higher headroom when I need it. Lunchbox and small watt heads just don’t have the guts for my preference of pushing a watt-hungry 412 cab (if not two)...


Thats why i wanna check out the MT15. Supposed to have tons of head room on board.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think JCMs are louder than they're rated.



Mine was benched at 130W iirc.

Where the thunderverb owners at


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## Bearitone (Jul 6, 2018)

I love my AMT R2 into my 500watt Mosvalve poweramp.
I’m not sure what that translates to in tube watts but, it’s pretty farkin loud and i have no problems with headroom


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## BurningRome (Jul 6, 2018)

I had the Thunderverb 200 and 50. People love the 50's but most of them havent tried the 200 and the 200 just slams the 50W around in every way possible IMO. I had a Fryette Ultra Lead at the time I owned the 200 and tried them side by side and the gain hangs in there with the UL, along with massive lows and just gut punching crunch. I liked the Thunderverb 200 a lot, by far one of my fav's but always over priced on the used market.

I find the 100W offerings of amps better than their 50W counterpart. I like the tighter fuller sound it offers however when I did this comparison with the 100 and 60W Fryette Deliverance they sounded the same but offered different tonal offerings. The 100 was fuller, punchier while the 50 was gainier at lower volume, more pissed off sounding and tracked really well in the studio. Both were great in their own way.

Anyway, if you do want a Thunderverb, I'd go with the 200. I do think the guitarist for Bring me the Horizon went from the Thunderverb 200 to a JCM800 at some point. Out of all the amps I've had I've never owned a JCM800, Plexi or anything along those lines.

I currently own a Victory Kraken 50 and Fryette Pittbull CL100 and like them both so I do like some 50W amps, just depends on the brands/engineering I guess.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Jul 7, 2018)

I'm mostly a bedroom warrior, but I still think big iron is the way. I used to gig with a Triple Rectifier and it was a force to be reckoned with. 

My amps in order from highest to lowest wattage:
-Bogner Überschall Twin Jet (150)
-Peavey 5150 block letter (120)
-VHT Ultra Lead (100-120)
-Mesa Mark V (90) 
-EVH 5153 (50)
-VHT 50/CL (50) 

One of these days I'm planning to sell the 50/CL and pick up a Diezel Herbert


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## KailM (Jul 7, 2018)

120 watt 6505
60 watt 6505+ head made from a '112 combo 
50 watt EVH 5150 III head

All running through a 412 cab. At home, but sometimes I play out.

The 120 watt 6505 does have something extra over the others, and it's not just the voicing. To use a car analogy, the 120 watt head has a SIXTH gear as opposed to just five like the other two. And when that sixth gear is dialed-up, it comes with a boost of nitrous.

The other two have arguably more than enough power as it is. They have plenty of clear low-end for my not-so-low downtuning (C# Standard). If I was playing a 7-string or tune my 6s down below B, maybe I'd notice more of a difference. But yeah, the 120 watter goes to "11."


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 7, 2018)

6505+ head through an Avatar 2x12 with Swamp Thang/Governor combo and... Just on 2, goddamn. It's all I'd ever need.


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## mnemonic (Jul 7, 2018)

I’m a big fan of my 3ch Dual Recifier (100 watts). I play at home but at loud volumes so I can get a very good sound from it. 

I also have a Jet City JCA50, only 50 watts but it’s output transformer is pretty oversized for a 50 watt amp, it’s about the same size as my recto’s output transformer. I think recto output transformers are supposed to be slightly undersized though. 

Despite the transformer size, the recto has a lot more bottom end and depth, but I guess at the end of the day, it’s also a different poweramp design (preamps though are somewhat similar). 

Also I have a Fryette 2/50/2 I used to run my axe fx into (now switched to matrix which I think works better for the axe fx) so I use the Fryette for various preamp pedals I have. 

If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years of playing it’s that I don’t like poweramp distortion, I much prefer it to stay clean, clear, tight, and punchy. I’ve only used 50+ watt amps in recent years, though years back I did have a Peavey Classic 20 combo (15 watts, two EL84’s) and it sounded great until it got to the point on the master where it didn’t get louder and just added more poweramp distortion. It was punchier and clearer before the poweramp distortion. This was a learning experience for me since at the time, everyone on the forums was convinced that amps sound better ‘dimed’ and power amp distortion is magical. Not for metal. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Thats why i wanna check out the MT15. Supposed to have tons of head room on board.



I’m really interested in this amp also, from one of the videos with the designer he said it’s essentially a 50 watt amp, but running at a lower plate voltage to bring it down to 14-ish watts. Clips sound great and what few reviews there are praise it, but it’s very much in the hype phase at the moment. I’d love to get my hands on one, I’m wondering if it really does have that ‘big iron’ depth. It doesn’t look like it has a particularly large output transformer from the pics I’ve seen, but that’s just looking through the grill, so maybe it does.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 7, 2018)

kindsage said:


> I love my AMT R2 into my 500watt Mosvalve poweramp.
> I’m not sure what that translates to in tube watts but, it’s pretty farkin loud and i have no problems with headroom



I've always heard a tube amp is usually 3x louder than an equally rated SS amp, but im sure there's tons of variables at play. From what ive heard those Mosvalves are much louder than your standard SS fare.


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## Edika (Jul 7, 2018)

After my first 50W Marshal practice amp I went directly to a Mesa Triple Rec 3 channel with a Mesa OS 4x12. Boy was that an amazing improvement and I was so in love with the sound. Being a bedroom player it didn't make sense and rarely had I ever gotten the amp to go over 2. I read a bit about it and then was using the master volume as a form of "attenuation". I had to sell it as I was moving out of the country and aside from needing the money the plans were to go to Canada. A great amp but I did had to fiddle with the eq from day to day as it seemed I was never super happy with the sound from day to day and week to week.

I got a Marshal Valvestate 80W combo that did the trick of keeping me happy and playing for a while but then I was missing the tube amp feel and sound. I was going to go for a 15-30W mini amp but ended up with the Laney VH100R, another insanely loud amp with no master control. A great clean sound on that amp but already at 1.5 it's too loud. Being a Marshal type circuit it needs volume to shine and I do have 6L6's instead of EL34's to get a more American sound, but upping the gain on the preamp just makes things muddier. I still haven't invested in an attenuator but I'm trying my luck with the FX loop trick where you can more or less use that as a master volume but for the preamp section. Like so though you can pump the volume on the power stage and clean out the sound more.

And after that, after I swore that I'll get something smaller next time I went with a 5150II head lol. 120W of power of crushing distortion. The clean sucks, especially compared to the Laney, but that lead channel OMG. It's still a loud as hell amp but I find it more manageable at almost 2 than the Laney. I've actually put the Laney for sale as I don't need both of them but if it doesn't sell, next tube change it's going to be EL34's so I can have a true British sounding head and an American one. And I'm still of half looking for a Mesa Recto Dual or Triple now and then lol.


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## Vostre Roy (Jul 7, 2018)

Every time a company get a new Lunchbox amp out, I'm wondering "yeah its all cool and everything, but where's my Marshall Major reissue?"

The lowest wattage tube amp I've owned was an Orange Dark Terror. As much as the voicing of the sound was very nice, I grew tired of the EL84 sound and lack of headroom. Since I took the plunge into amp building, I always aimed for the highest wattage available. I tried different versions of master volume too and found out that the hate toward the sound of certain high-wattage amps at low volume can be directed to that particular element, although some amp seems to react differently to different kind of master volume.

Right now, I own the following amps:

- 100w Ceriatone Overtone HRM100 MKII (with London Power's Phase Invert Master Volume kit)
- 100w Weber 8CM100 (with 1Meg pot PPIMV)
- 50w Bruce Egnater's Boutikit (with Pre-Phase Inverter Master Volume)
- 50w Traynor Bassmaster 1973 model (with 250k pot PPIMV)

And I plan to build the following amps:

- 100w C3Amps SLO100 Clone
- 100w Ceriatone AH100
- 200w Marshall "The Pig" Major


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 7, 2018)

I haven't owned a ton of big heads (triple rec, xxx, dual rec, mkiv) but I really enjoy the big punch in the gut from palm mutes/chugs and the extra headroom they tend to deliver. My mesa f30 can recreate the low end punch to an extent (at least when I crank it up a bit), but it can't deliver on the headroom aspect. I ended up ditching all those amps (besides the mkiv and f30) because they were fucking heavy and I wasn't getting much use out of the extra headroom at local gigs/playing at my buddy's house. 
The triple rec was one of the most bowel shaking bat shit insane amps I've ever played cranked. I kind of miss that amp, but i'm pretty dead set on getting a revv 100p or mi gamma 120W next.


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## budda (Jul 7, 2018)

For you 5150/XXX owners, have you ever tried the "fx loop jumper boost" trick (my shitty name)?

I discovered this one when I had my friend over with his epi valve jr (5W class A). I had two 412's and the JSX, and we wanted to compare his dimed Jr to the JSX for volume. That was the day we learned how loud 5W can be .

That little guy kept up. I was wondering how on earth something with such less wattage could keep up in volume (not gain) with my firebreather. I learned that if you max out the send and return on your empty loop and engage it, you essentially get full power. This noticeably changed the tone and volume of the amp. I think I ran it that way up until I sold it.

I always wondered if that trick worked with 5150's as well - it should work with a triple X.

There was a marshall major for sale in Toronto for $2K or so, but I didn't want to try it out and then need to flip gizmo to buy it.

Has anyone checked out the new Emperor 100W head?


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## Vostre Roy (Jul 7, 2018)

budda said:


> There was a marshall major for sale in Toronto for $2K or so, but I didn't want to try it out and then need to flip gizmo to buy it.



Spaceman Music shop (in Ottawa I think) had a Marshall Major Full Stack (amp w/ 2x 4x15" cabinet) for sale a couple of months ago. The 5k$ price tag, as legitimate it was, was a deal breaker ahah. Reason I'd rather build myself one, its just hard to find some good 200w transformers without having to go custom.


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## Shoeless_jose (Jul 7, 2018)

I got so excited by your 2203 I forgot to mention my own boys.

JCM 900 SLX 2100 100 WATT
EVH 5153 100 WATT

and have huge amp gas for the Mesa JP-2C or if I find a good deal I'd grab a reborn triple rec. Helix does all my low volume work for me.


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## Kyle Jordan (Jul 7, 2018)

I learned early on that the 100+ and usually 120+ heads tended to be my favorite sounding amps. In fact, if I made a list of my favorite amps that I've owned or wish to, most would be 150+. 

There's a combination of headroom, sonic width and depth, and overall clarity that really stands out and is sadly very difficult to capture on recordings. 

In fact, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be moving to either a Fryette Ultra Lead or Diezel Herbert next even if I have to sell my Mark IV. I hope I don't have to, but I may have to for extra funds on the next amp. Plus, as much of a Mark series sycophant as I am, I've been searching for something that I don't think is in the Mark series. Sadly, I know I'll be making some tradeoffs for things I do love if I move away from them. I may be able to replicate those in other amps though. I guess I'll see.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jul 7, 2018)

At 64 pounds... I haven't found anything with bigger iron... the OT/PT are MASSIVE.







The mighty Diezel Herbert.


Honorable mention:
Mesa MK3 Coli
HiWatt DR405


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## Kyle Jordan (Jul 7, 2018)

^That is sexy.


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## lurè (Jul 7, 2018)

Only owned a triple rec which I sold for a Powerball 2.
Couldn't dial in a decent tone without sacrificing hearing.
I just love the amount of headroom and punch 100+W amps have and, owning a 412 oversize cab, I don't see myself playing through a lbx amp.
I like the possibilty to switch to lower wattages for bedroom usate, but for live playing I want to blast my amp loud af and have max headroom and punch.


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## IGC (Jul 7, 2018)

From way back in my live band days:
-Randall RH 200 - 200 watt head, still own 12 years?
-Marshall Valvestate Bi Chorus 200/ 8200, still own 22 years?
-4 X 12 Randall XL cabinet all stock Celestions, still own 12 years?
-one vintage 1975 4 X 12 Peavy cabinet with 2 Eminence legends/2 Eminence Swamp Thangs-owned
-one unknown brand 4 x 12 cab with 4 Celestion G12 K100's -owned
-one newer 4 x 12 Marshall cab with stock Celestions don't remember the model-owned

I used to daisy chain my Randall head through my Marshall head and run through four 4 x 12 
cabs simultaneously. I loved that! Only issue was the different EQing for the different cabs but 
otherwise it was loads of fun and I didn't have any problems drowning out even the drummer
at practice and maintaining good sound/ tonal clarity/ crunch etc..
I did end up having to open the backs of my cabs up with the Randall head to 
alleviate speaker rumble at high volumes, when just playing with a single 4 x 12 cab.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Jul 7, 2018)

budda said:


> For you 5150/XXX owners, have you ever tried the "fx loop jumper boost" trick (my shitty name)?
> 
> I discovered this one when I had my friend over with his epi valve jr (5W class A). I had two 412's and the JSX, and we wanted to compare his dimed Jr to the JSX for volume. That was the day we learned how loud 5W can be .
> 
> ...



The 5150 doesn't have send or return level controls, so bridging them with a patch cable won't do anything different. However, if you use the amp's footswitch to bypass the FX loop (it's always on unless switched off by the tip of the footswitch jack) the tone opens up and the bottom end is tight and ruthless. 

This Lasse Lammert clip is of his SLO100 with and without the loop engaged, and the difference with the 5150 is at _least _as noticeable as this. It makes a huge difference in feel as well.


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## budda (Jul 7, 2018)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> The 5150 doesn't have send or return level controls, so bridging them with a patch cable won't do anything different. However, if you use the amp's footswitch to bypass the FX loop (it's always on unless switched off by the tip of the footswitch jack) the tone opens up and the bottom end is tight and ruthless.



It's interesting that the tone would open up with the loop disengaged as opposed to become more compressed.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 7, 2018)

budda said:


> For you 5150/XXX owners, have you ever tried the "fx loop jumper boost" trick (my shitty name)?
> 
> I discovered this one when I had my friend over with his epi valve jr (5W class A). I had two 412's and the JSX, and we wanted to compare his dimed Jr to the JSX for volume. That was the day we learned how loud 5W can be .
> 
> ...


My XXX/3120’s don’t respond to the “jumper trick” much more than placebo to my ears, just like a boost out front, they got so much preamp voltage going on that they don’t respond too well...a Valveking essentially needs one to get the preamp gain to “metal” levels


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Jul 7, 2018)

budda said:


> It's interesting that the tone would open up with the loop disengaged as opposed to become more compressed.



I wasn't expecting it, but I guess it makes sense with less things in the signal path  

Now I just need to figure out how to get that tone all the time with a better or modded FX loop


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## sevenfoxes (Jul 7, 2018)

I love the 100w heads that sound awesome at lower volumes. My EVH 5153 Stealth sounds just as good at low volumes as it does when playing with the band.

My reborn recto, on the other hand, does not sound as good at lower volumes, even when its on 50w, it still needs to be pushed a bit to get the most out of it.

I really dig the extra oomph and headroom that 100w heads have to offer.

Btw, i really dig your Gizmo amp!


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## budda (Jul 7, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> My XXX/3120’s don’t respond to the “jumper trick” much more than placebo to my ears, just like a boost out front, they got so much preamp voltage going on that they don’t respond too well...a Valveking essentially needs one to get the preamp gain to “metal” levels



I noticed it immediately with the JSX, however I probably ran less gain than you .


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## IGC (Jul 7, 2018)

budda said:


> For you 5150/XXX owners, have you ever tried the "fx loop jumper boost" trick (my shitty name)?
> 
> I discovered this one when I had my friend over with his epi valve jr (5W class A). I had two 412's and the JSX, and we wanted to compare his dimed Jr to the JSX for volume. That was the day we learned how loud 5W can be .
> 
> ...




A few months ago I got together with some old friends for a jam and one of them had this new little Fender Mustang like 8 inch x 5 watt. That thing could keep up with the drums and still sounded quite good. We were all pleasantly surprised. 
JSX = firebreather? Agreed, I love that head! Gonna get one before I die. Another jam friend has one and my dimebucker sounds so good on that thing.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 7, 2018)

budda said:


> I noticed it immediately with the JSX, however I probably ran less gain than you .


I think the XXX has considerable more voltage and gain in the preamp than the JSX...my Engl Savage 120 I used to own hade the same issue with trying to boost -I think Peavey’s loops on their REALLY high heads have the same effect


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## NateFalcon (Jul 7, 2018)

NOBODY runs more gain than me it seems lol


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## Cynicanal (Jul 8, 2018)

Another "mostly home player with a Twin Jet" here.

TBH, I find that even at home-friendly volumes (but not apartment friendly per-se, I generally run my TJ with channel volume at about 10:30-11:00 and master at about 10:00), the big high-wattage monsters just sound better than the small amps do. Punchier, tighter, ballsier, more "together".


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## op1e (Jul 8, 2018)

RM100 with 4 KT88's. This one requires the side handles for carry. The transformers are huge. Supposed to be a Plexi/Superbass power section from what I've read. Matt at Motor City Mods has actually discovered this thing makes a great bass amp and made a bass module for it. He keeps telling me to run el34's, the amp has too much bottom, but I like it. I'll throw a pair in eventually. It's not very Marshally right now with this setup.

Peavey Ultra 120 (old teal stripe). Not as loud as a 120w should be. My 5153 50w was louder. But you could feel the bottom end under your right hand better with the Ultra and it's the tightest amp I've still ever owned.

B52 AT100 (Surprisingly good) Inherited that one, was in an old band members garage and didn't work. Got dropped and a capacitor leg popped out. Popped it back in the sleeve and glued it lol. Good power for modelers and great clean channel for pedal platform.

6505mh. Unfortunately looks like my power section is boned. Somehow the speaker defeat switch got bumped. Still works as a preamp, been using that way into the rm100 thru a loop switcher. When I get money I wanna have it fixed and converted into a rackmount head with a larger OT if possible and 6v6 instead of el84. Didn't really enjoy the thing on its own thru a cab at our practice volume.

Big Iron is like the pulse in these amps. Goes from your right hand to the power section to the cab to the floor. You can make the smaller ones sound as good almost, but they sure don't feel as good.


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## Shask (Jul 9, 2018)

Hell Yeah! I think I have said it so many times on this board I don't really need to post in this thread. Big Power = Big Depth. There is definitely something that just stands out about big amps in the low end. They just have more depth, clearer mids, and just sound and feel bigger overall. It is just not an EQ thing, because you can't use an EQ pedal in the loop of a 20w amp and get the same depth.

I mostly play at home also, but you can still tell even at lower volumes. The amp I have owned for years is an old 2-Channel Triple Rectifier. That thing sounds like a sledgehammer to your eardrum. In the past I have owned 120w amps like the 5150 and VHT D120. I think the D120 was the only amp I have owned that rivaled the Triple Recto. I also have a Marshall 2203 based clone I built that has extra depth knobs. I have had some other larger amps also, like a Mesa Mark III, and several tube amp SS rack amps. I still have a Matrix GT1000FX also.

I have pretty much always thought the 100w versions sounded better than the 50w versions of the same amp, and definitely better than the baby 20w versions. It is not about volume.... it is about depth.


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## laxu (Jul 9, 2018)

High wattage amps tend to have more dynamic range and low end clarity and that's probably what a lot of you like. To me that dynamic range can become a bit too much on clean and edge of breakup tones and for those I'd rather have a lower wattage amp.


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## pearl_07 (Jul 9, 2018)

6505+
Dual Rectifier Tremoverb and Roadster
Mark V

There's no replacement for displacement. I've always been a full sized amp guy, but I did venture into the lunchbox realm with a Mark V:25 for a year as my primary amp. I think my ears tricked/fooled into believing a 25 watt head pushing 2 4x12's would be plenty sufficient, and it was but I immediately sold it once I tried my friend's Mark V which I ended up buying from him. The depth from larger transformers and tubes is something that hasn't quite been replicated in smaller amps or digital units, and even then I think I'd rather just have the real deal at that point. There's plenty of examples where bands try to go completely DI/digital, and they end up later compromising with 100+ watt power sections with their Axe Fx or they just go back to a full sized head altogether.


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## budda (Jul 9, 2018)

laxu said:


> High wattage amps tend to have more dynamic range and low end clarity and that's probably what a lot of you like. To me that dynamic range can become a bit too much on clean and edge of breakup tones and for those I'd rather have a lower wattage amp.



Too dynamic?


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

budda said:


> Too dynamic?


Not sure what you're trying to say here. Lots of people think clean tones are too dynamic. That's why people use compressors. I personally really like the dynamics of a good clean channel and no extra compressor, but lots of people would rather control dynamics via the equipment than with their hands.


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## budda (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say here. Lots of people think clean tones are too dynamic. That's why people use compressors. I personally really like the dynamics of a good clean channel and no extra compressor, but lots of people would rather control dynamics via the equipment than with their hands.



I think that is my first time reading that statement in 10+ years of being on forums.


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## laxu (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say here. Lots of people think clean tones are too dynamic. That's why people use compressors. I personally really like the dynamics of a good clean channel and no extra compressor, but lots of people would rather control dynamics via the equipment than with their hands.



There's having dynamics and then having the kind of dynamics where it gets a bit too loud if you hit the strings hard. You can use a compressor or an amp that naturally compresses a bit more so it evens out nicely while still giving you a good amount of dynamic range.


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## Drew (Jul 9, 2018)

Features, mostly. 

I played a Mesa Roadster for _years_ because it was a four-channel amp with a great clean sound, great lead sound, and a great rhythm sound, that could still cover a lot of other ranges in a pinch. At that point, if you wanted a high gain amp with more than two channels, it was pretty much a 100 watt head you were getting. 

Today, you have a little more flexibility. Towards the start of the year I bought a Mark-V, and the reason I went with the full 90 watt amp rather than the 25 or 35 still came down to features - it had an extra channel and three additional preamp modes (one of them, Edge, has become a surprise favorite of mine), and while the 35 still offered the solo boost, the 25 didn't. I also already owned a 4x12, and thought a lunchbox amp like the 25 would look a little silly sitting on top of a cab that large.

I haven't had any problem with the V being too loud, but even then I mostly run it in 90 watt mode, because the low end seems a little bigger and more open there than in 45 or 10. And, it's not like you're getting the poweramp of a Mesa to distort at anything approaching "sane" volume anyway.


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## Drew (Jul 9, 2018)

laxu said:


> There's having dynamics and then having the kind of dynamics where it gets a bit too loud if you hit the strings hard. You can use a compressor or an amp that naturally compresses a bit more so it evens out nicely while still giving you a good amount of dynamic range.


That's exactly what I LIKE about an edge-of-breakup clean tone, though.


----------



## prlgmnr (Jul 9, 2018)

Drew said:


> one of them, Edge, has become a surprise favorite of mine


It's comfortably my least favourite mode on my Mark V, how are you dialling it in?


----------



## wakjob (Jul 9, 2018)

Agree, nothing like BIG iron...and big tubes.

Not to say that it can't be done with something like EL84's.

It's just not common practice for the bean counters to let a 25 watt amp go into final design stages with a nice big output transformer.

...unless your name is Mike funkin' Soldano !!!!


----------



## Drew (Jul 9, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> It's comfortably my least favourite mode on my Mark V, how are you dialling it in?


It's pretty meh with humbuckers, but if you have a Strat lying around, particularly a darker one with a rosewood board, dial it in with the gain maybe at 1-2 o'clock and a fairly bright EQ from the channel, graphic off. It's instant Texas blues. 

I should shoot some video with that channel just because it's so unexpectedly awesome, though the Strat I have that really sounds the best there could use a fresh set of strings.


----------



## NorCal_Val (Jul 11, 2018)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> The 5150 doesn't have send or return level controls, so bridging them with a patch cable won't do anything different. However, if you use the amp's footswitch to bypass the FX loop (it's always on unless switched off by the tip of the footswitch jack) the tone opens up and the bottom end is tight and ruthless.



Are you talking about the new EVH 5150 amps, or the old Peavey 5150?
Curious!!!


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Jul 11, 2018)

NorCal_Val said:


> Are you talking about the new EVH 5150 amps, or the old Peavey 5150?
> Curious!!!



This was in reference to my Peavey 5150 Block Letter  

It's been a long time since I've played my EVH 5153 50w with the footswitch to bypass the loop since I normally control the amp via midi in my rig and keep the loop on for convenience. I don't remember there being much or any noticeable difference on the EVH with the loop on vs bypassed, but I'll see if I can dig out the footswitch and experiment a bit


----------



## budda (Jul 11, 2018)

I recall mills custom amps being floated around here - has anyone tried their 200w or 400w offerings?


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## Shoeless_jose (Jul 11, 2018)

All this talk makes me wish I was in a group gigging again. I think tonight the 5153 is getting cranked while the wife is at work... or maybe the Marshall... ugh can't wait.


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## mnemonic (Jul 11, 2018)

Every once in a while some of those old 90’s rack poweramps shows up on eBay (you know, the Peavey Classics, Marshall 9005, 9100, 9200, MESA 295, 395, very rarely an old VHT 2150, 2100...) the ones that were 3 or 4 rack units with full sized transformers, and sometimes more than 100 watts per side.

I’m always tempted but that gear is getting old and will likely need full retubes ($$$), recaps, maybe other maintenance work, plus the market for them is almost non-existent so once I buy it I’m stuck with it for life.


Also, this song gets stuck in my head every time I see the thread title


----------



## Shask (Jul 11, 2018)

Yeah, sometimes I think it would be awesome to have something like a Mesa Strategy 500 to run things through! lol. Sadly, the lights in the house would probably dim every time I turned it on....


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## budda (Jul 11, 2018)

Replacing tubes every few years is a small price to pay for tone.


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## NorCal_Val (Jul 11, 2018)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> This was in reference to my Peavey 5150 Block Letter



Cool.
I have a “script” Peavey 5150.
I was unaware of this little trick.
Interesting...!


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## MASS DEFECT (Jul 11, 2018)

Got a Vanilla 6505+ here. Nothing special. I also have an SS Matrix GT1600fx, and while I can be louder with the Matrix/AX8 rig and kill the speakers on my 4x12 cab, I can definitely say that playing through the 6505+ just feels better. That buttery feel of notes and huge sag when you chug can't be beat.


----------



## StevenC (Jul 11, 2018)

Just got a lend of a VH4S and it massages my ears. Never played an amp that made me less self conscious with volume.


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## Harry (Jul 12, 2018)

Big amps are cool, I just don't own any tube amps anymore though since moving onto a digital > FRFR style rig.
The 6505+ will forever be one of my favorite high gain sounds though. I prefer the 5150II/6505+ to the 5150/6505, which is heresy, but I just like the extra low end tightness due to the stronger low frequency filtering

I got to play a Dual Dark a few times as borrowed backline on tour and LOVED IT. Hot dayum, what a great high gain sound. 
One that really surprised me was the Randall T2 (tube/SS hybrid for those unaware). I suppose not technically "big iron" since it has a SS poweramp, but at 400 watts it puts out plenty of noise.
Again, a killer high gain sound. Hybrid amps seem largely a thing of the past, what with newer, lighter high gain beasts like the 50 watt 5150III and all the modeling solutions making them kinda redundant. Still worth a look if you can find one though.
JCM 800 2203s are of course fantastic. Unless I was playing in a straight hardcore punk or metal band with distortion all the time the 800s just wouldn't be versatile enough.
The 2205/2210 amps don't really have much of a "clean" channel either so that doesn't solve that problem , but are also killer sounding and have a surprising amount of gain too. Overlooked, but again, seriously worth a look


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Jul 12, 2018)

Shask said:


> Yeah, sometimes I think it would be awesome to have something like a Mesa Strategy 500 to run things through! lol. Sadly, the lights in the house would probably dim every time I turned it on....



Since I've been back to playing, I've occasionally seen a Strategy or one of the old 2XXX VHT poweramps up for sale and have been severely tempted.

Back in 2002, a big group of friends that I was part of decided to throw a big Spring Break party up around Red River NM. Since there were two full bands and a few other players of various instruments in the group, we decided to take a bunch of gear and jam/play for the few days.

Being young, relatively healthy, and stupid, I took my Mesa Mark IIC+ Coliseum (I deeply regret selling this amp back in 2010), my Triaxis, and my Fender Twin Reverb reissue along side my two Mesa Halfback 4x12s. One of my friends who plays took his Triple Rec, his two Recto Traditional 4x12s, and the key component, his Strategy 500.

To cut to the chase, we ended up plugging my IIC+ Coliseum in to a little Thiele my bandmate brought up that we wrapped in blankets and bags and then partially buried (to block sound) and ran the line out to the Strategy 500 that was running my Halfbacks and my buddy's Recto cabs. We also at some point did my Triaxis in to the Strategy.

Words fail at how awesome this sounded. They also nearly fail at describing how fucking loud it was with the exception that when cranked, it was physically painful to stand in front of.

I bought the 500 from him a few months later.

Point of the story: Everyone should own a Mesa Strategy 400 or 500 at some point.


----------



## Aso (Jul 13, 2018)

I just can't get into modelers and they seem like they require too much fiddling with. 

Currently I have the following amps:

Rhodes Gemini
Marshall JCM 900 SL-X (EL34)
Peavey 5150 Sig
Soldano HR50
Coming next month will be the new PoweredByOmega Iridium single channel high gain amp with KT77 power tubes. I think this is may be the perfect amp for me and simple style of single hum/ fixed bridge playing style.


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## Shoeless_jose (Jul 13, 2018)

Aso said:


> I just can't get into modelers and they seem like they require too much fiddling with.
> 
> Currently I have the following amps:
> 
> ...



Wow finally found another SL-X owner!!! SWEET they breathe fire dont they!!! super underrated amp.


----------



## Shoeless_jose (Jul 13, 2018)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> At 64 pounds... I haven't found anything with bigger iron... the OT/PT are MASSIVE.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My amps OTs look so tiny now in comparison


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 13, 2018)

Are there diminishing returns with transformer size? Is it a detriment at some point?

Why hasn’t there been a metal amp on the market that is 50 or 100 watts, but with transformers bigger than a Diesel Herbert’s?


----------



## budda (Jul 13, 2018)

Re: jcm800 2203's arent versatile enough, sure they are! Just use them as a clean platform and run pedals .

400w randalls are welcome in the discussion.

@mnemonic I think you'd get more volume with highly efficient speakers over oversized OT's at 100w.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jul 13, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Are there diminishing returns with transformer size? Is it a detriment at some point?
> 
> Why hasn’t there been a metal amp on the market that is 50 or 100 watts, but with transformers bigger than a Diesel Herbert’s?



No and yes. Depends on the design and implementation of the master volume. The Herbert (and all Diezels in general) have great and very effective master volumes. Otherwise, you'll go deaf fast. Those big transformers cost $$$ and are very high quality. So not many manufacturers produce these custom spec OTs/PTs in large quantity. Also the chassis has to be able to support such a weight which greatly adds to production cost. 

The closest thing in a mass production amp I've owned was the short lived 120W Randall Satan. The OT/PT were also big, and the amp was close to 60 pounds in weight as well. The quality of the OT/PT were at a lesser level (MIC), and the sound of the amp was something different than most would imagine based on clips. Very dry, tight, linear. Not very saturated, "warm tubey" sounding, not very fluid overtones. But overall, the amp was very well built and assembled nicely.


----------



## Moltar (Jul 13, 2018)

I have an Orange Rockerverb 50, Thunderverb 50, and Dual Dark 100. They all sound great but the Dual Dark certainly just dominates a mix unlike the other two if I'm not careful with the settings and volume. Not sure if its the higher wattage or what because it is also voiced a lot differently than the other two. Actually I use the Rockerverb and Thunderverb live more often as the other guitar player in my band used a 60 watt power amp so the 50 watters seem to sit in the overall mix better. The 50 watters are loud(i've had louder 50 watt amps though[Marshalls]), but the Dual Dark is unbelievably loud. Ive never had an amp even approaching the volume of this one, it's just nasty.


----------



## Shask (Jul 13, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Are there diminishing returns with transformer size? Is it a detriment at some point?
> 
> Why hasn’t there been a metal amp on the market that is 50 or 100 watts, but with transformers bigger than a Diesel Herbert’s?


I would assume it mostly comes down to price and weight. Transformers are easily the most expensive part of the amp, and they get expensive quickly. Even if you saved $20 on transformers, that would probably translate to millions over thousands of amps made....

Also, weight. People want little shit these days. Just look at how popular the 5150 III 50W is... hell, even I am thinking I want one, lol.... don't know if they can produce the deep low end though....


----------



## budda (Jul 13, 2018)

People definitely want lighter gear.

For those who tour, especially involving flights, lighter makes more sense.

So why arent we seeing composite head shells to reduce weight?


----------



## cwhitey2 (Jul 13, 2018)

budda said:


> People definitely want lighter gear.
> 
> For those who tour, especially involving flights, lighter makes more sense.
> 
> So why arent we seeing composite head shells to reduce weight?


$$$$


----------



## Shask (Jul 13, 2018)

budda said:


> People definitely want lighter gear.
> 
> For those who tour, especially involving flights, lighter makes more sense.
> 
> So why arent we seeing composite head shells to reduce weight?


That is one thing I do like about the mini tube amp designs. Most use some sort of thin metal cage/case enclosure instead of the thick wood. I think that is a good upgrade that keeps the strength, but reduces the weight.


----------



## Beheroth (Jul 13, 2018)

budda said:


> People definitely want lighter gear.
> 
> For those who tour, especially involving flights, lighter makes more sense.
> 
> So why arent we seeing composite head shells to reduce weight?



also why no toroidal transfo ? theyre supposed to be lighter and more efficient


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 13, 2018)

Hi all. Got a Jet City JCA100HDM here. Modded to SLO preamp values and with the effects loop moved after the tonestack.



Beheroth said:


> also why no toroidal transfo ? theyre supposed to be lighter and more efficient


They don't tolerate DC as well, tend to throw off more noise, and they're (most importantly) more expensive. They could also only be used for power transformers (they aren't great for OPTs), in which case they may well be bigger dimensionally than the EI transformers we use now. They're also not secured anywhere near as tightly to the chassis (one bolt vs 4).


Re: diminishing returns with transformer size, it actually isn't just the size of the core - the material used (i.e. the grade of iron or steel) has a large effect on the saturation point (and therefore the dynamic response of the amp).


----------



## budda (Jul 13, 2018)

Those JCA 100's are great.


----------



## Wizard of Ozz (Jul 13, 2018)

Beheroth said:


> also why no toroidal transfo ? theyre supposed to be lighter and more efficient



As mentioned above: noisey. Sometimes very much so. Also changes the feel of the amp.


----------



## Shask (Jul 13, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Hi all. Got a Jet City JCA100HDM here. Modded to SLO preamp values and with the effects loop moved after the tonestack.



Very nice. I have considered getting one of those JCA100HDMs. They look pretty nice, but I am not sure if it would be THAT much different from my Triple Rectifier to have. I think it would be nice to add a mid sweep to it.


----------



## Cynicanal (Jul 13, 2018)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> As mentioned above: noisey. Sometimes very much so. Also changes the feel of the amp.


I dunno, my Ironheart has a toroidal tranny, and it's _super_ quiet.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 13, 2018)

Shask said:


> Very nice. I have considered getting one of those JCA100HDMs. They look pretty nice, but I am not sure if it would be THAT much different from my Triple Rectifier to have. I think it would be nice to add a mid sweep to it.



My JCA50 is pretty different from my dual recto, I don’t really mind having both. The Recto is certainly my favourite but the Jet City is a lot of fun. 

The mid sweep is something I want to add to mine, easy to do I just need to order the parts. I was gonna put it on a push/pull pot so it can be set back to default. 

I also played around with some zener diodes off the master volume last time I had it open, I could get some real saturation out of the crunch channel but it decreased volume a lot, like I had to put the master volume at half to get the same as when it was at 1 with no diodes. Maybe I was putting them in the wrong place.


----------



## Cynicanal (Jul 13, 2018)

Uh... do the JCAs have a standard Marshall-style tone stack? Aren't they modeled after the SLO, which has a standard FMV tonestack? If so, they already have a mid sweep, it's the treble knob. Turning the treble up moves the center of the mids cut lower on an amp with that style of tone stack.

Try using your treble to control your midrange emphasis, then adding or removing high end as needed with the presence knob. Works like a charm.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 13, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> Uh... do the JCAs have a standard Marshall-style tone stack? Aren't they modeled after the SLO, which has a standard FMV tonestack? If so, they already have a mid sweep, it's the treble knob. Turning the treble up moves the center of the mids cut lower on an amp with that style of tone stack.
> 
> Try using your treble to control your midrange emphasis, then adding or removing high end as needed with the presence knob. Works like a charm.



It’s putting the slope resistor on a pot, I’m not sure if that’s technically a ‘mid sweep’ but there’s a video I saw that made the control seem pretty useful. It got very Marshally when turned up higher than the stock value


----------



## Shask (Jul 13, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> Uh... do the JCAs have a standard Marshall-style tone stack? Aren't they modeled after the SLO, which has a standard FMV tonestack? If so, they already have a mid sweep, it's the treble knob. Turning the treble up moves the center of the mids cut lower on an amp with that style of tone stack.
> 
> Try using your treble to control your midrange emphasis, then adding or removing high end as needed with the presence knob. Works like a charm.



The JCA and Soldano amps basically have a JCM800 2203 tonestack, except the slope resistor is larger, which puts the mid scoop at a lower frequency. This brings in more upper mids, and less lower mids as compared to the Marshall.

Yeah the mid sweep mod is putting a pot for the slope resistor so that you can set the frequency of the mid scoop that is part of the tonestack.


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Jul 13, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Hi all. Got a Jet City JCA100HDM here. Modded to SLO preamp values and with the effects loop moved after the tonestack.
> 
> 
> They don't tolerate DC as well, tend to throw off more noise, and they're (most importantly) more expensive. They could also only be used for power transformers (they aren't great for OPTs), in which case they may well be bigger dimensionally than the EI transformers we use now. They're also not secured anywhere near as tightly to the chassis (one bolt vs 4).
> ...



That's interesting to know. I was about to pull the trigger on a 100w Synergy tube poweramp. It's 1U. So small and light with a toroidal transformer. Are those transformers really that bad?


----------



## Shask (Jul 13, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> My JCA50 is pretty different from my dual recto, I don’t really mind having both. The Recto is certainly my favourite but the Jet City is a lot of fun.
> 
> The mid sweep is something I want to add to mine, easy to do I just need to order the parts. I was gonna put it on a push/pull pot so it can be set back to default.
> 
> I also played around with some zener diodes off the master volume last time I had it open, I could get some real saturation out of the crunch channel but it decreased volume a lot, like I had to put the master volume at half to get the same as when it was at 1 with no diodes. Maybe I was putting them in the wrong place.


Yeah, I keep thinking they sound like they sit right in-between a Recto and a 5150. The other amp I have interest in is the 5150 III 50W. I think I would prefer the JCA100HDM since it is the big amp, but would be interested in the JCA50 if I found one cheap enough. I just don't know if something totally different would be a better choice.... something like a Mark IV or something.

Yeah, anytime you clip with diodes they cut the volume a lot. Even if you pull the clipping diodes out of a distortion pedal, it will get like 3x louder.


----------



## Shask (Jul 13, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> My JCA50 is pretty different from my dual recto, I don’t really mind having both. The Recto is certainly my favourite but the Jet City is a lot of fun.
> 
> The mid sweep is something I want to add to mine, easy to do I just need to order the parts. I was gonna put it on a push/pull pot so it can be set back to default.
> 
> I also played around with some zener diodes off the master volume last time I had it open, I could get some real saturation out of the crunch channel but it decreased volume a lot, like I had to put the master volume at half to get the same as when it was at 1 with no diodes. Maybe I was putting them in the wrong place.


Speaking of no volume, I once used a slope resistor of like 60-80k in my 2203 clone. It cut the mids A LOT, but made it sound heavier than shit. Total Soul of a New Machine Vibe, but heavier. However, it cut the volume in like half also, lol.

Speaking of mids, it seems like 500hz-800hz has really been annoying me lately for some reason. It doesn't matter what gear I am playing, everything is sounding honky and boxy. If I cut these frequencies, it sounds normal again. Today I was playing my Triple Recto, and put an EQ in the loop and scooped 800hz like -10db or something. Made it sound crazy heavy. It was like a Modern Recto sound with the Mid Scoop of a Mark IIC+. Sounded amazing.


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 13, 2018)

Shask said:


> Very nice. I have considered getting one of those JCA100HDMs. They look pretty nice, but I am not sure if it would be THAT much different from my Triple Rectifier to have. I think it would be nice to add a mid sweep to it.


 They don't sound all that similar, really - both kind of the same family of SLO descendants but definitely no closer than like, second cousins. The power amp on the JCAs is veeeery different from a Mesa, and the tonestacks aren't super similar either.



Cynicanal said:


> Uh... do the JCAs have a standard Marshall-style tone stack? Aren't they modeled after the SLO, which has a standard FMV tonestack? If so, they already have a mid sweep, it's the treble knob. Turning the treble up moves the center of the mids cut lower on an amp with that style of tone stack.


 Yep, standard FMV stack. I'm considering making the slope resistor a pot, also - I'm not crazy about drilling into the chassis though. Oh - one other mod I did was replace all the pots with chassis mounted 24mm Alphas, which did a lot of good reducing noise.




MASS DEFECT said:


> That's interesting to know. I was about to pull the trigger on a 100w Synergy tube poweramp. It's 1U. So small and light with a toroidal transformer. Are those transformers really that bad?


There's nothing inherently wrong with toroidals, they just have to be designed around where as EIs are simpler to implement.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 14, 2018)

Shask said:


> Speaking of no volume, I once used a slope resistor of like 60-80k in my 2203 clone. It cut the mids A LOT, but made it sound heavier than shit. Total Soul of a New Machine Vibe, but heavier. However, it cut the volume in like half also, lol.
> 
> Speaking of mids, it seems like 500hz-800hz has really been annoying me lately for some reason. It doesn't matter what gear I am playing, everything is sounding honky and boxy. If I cut these frequencies, it sounds normal again. Today I was playing my Triple Recto, and put an EQ in the loop and scooped 800hz like -10db or something. Made it sound crazy heavy. It was like a Modern Recto sound with the Mid Scoop of a Mark IIC+. Sounded amazing.



I don’t know if a Jet city head could get as aggressive as a 5150. They have a lot of gain on tap (probably on-par with my recto or maybe a bit more) but aren’t voiced as modern or as tight. I’d love to figure out some mods to make it more aggressive. Basically in a perfect world I’d like a switch on the front that made it sound like Demanufacture haha. 

I think your jcm800 clone has an extra gain stage right? It’s probably similar and I bet could be modded to sound a lot alike. 

I biased my up hot recently, I think I had it at like 12ma before, now at like 32ma. I left it cold before since I had it set up the way I liked with a cold bias and I was used to it. But after not playing it for a week or two, I realised how it really didn’t sound as good as my other amps. Biased warmer and starting fresh with the eq, and a hotter bias does sound a hell of a lot thicker, and a lot less fizzy than it did before. Hotter bias added a ton of mids and low mids, and rolled off a lot of top end, so the eq had to be totally different.

I dip the mids at 400 and 800 hz with my recto, but not a ton. I also use a fairly middy cap (v30 / k100) but all my amps like it except for my Valvestate, which sounds a bit overly mid-focused into it. It prefers the g12t75 1x12 cab I have.

Maybe those are the resonant frequencies of your room?


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Jul 14, 2018)

budda said:


> So why arent we seeing composite head shells to reduce weight?



I've wondered this as well. My guess is cost and established familiarity. Wood is very easy to work with and get set up to work with. Composite materials not quite as much, but 3D printing could change that. 

I'd love to see metal shells on big heads. My worry would be bending and heavily dinging the metal on tour or gigging.


----------



## technomancer (Jul 14, 2018)

MASS DEFECT said:


> That's interesting to know. I was about to pull the trigger on a 100w Synergy tube poweramp. It's 1U. So small and light with a toroidal transformer. Are those transformers really that bad?



No, they're not. It is entirely possible to build good gear around those transformers, as hundreds of pieces of various rack gear demonstrate. If you're really that worried about it that it would influence your purchase, buy it from somewhere with a good return policy in case it doesn't work out for you


----------



## Shask (Jul 14, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> I don’t know if a Jet city head could get as aggressive as a 5150. They have a lot of gain on tap (probably on-par with my recto or maybe a bit more) but aren’t voiced as modern or as tight. I’d love to figure out some mods to make it more aggressive. Basically in a perfect world I’d like a switch on the front that made it sound like Demanufacture haha.
> 
> I think your jcm800 clone has an extra gain stage right? It’s probably similar and I bet could be modded to sound a lot alike.
> 
> ...


I had a Block 5150 for like 15 years or something, so that is a tone I love, but not necessarily something I want an exact duplicate of. I think that is why the JCA and 5153 50W interest me. Something with that same fat low end (like Machine Head albums), and a less gritty high end would be cool. I am sure an aggressive boost, like the MXR BAOD would help get it there.

Speaking of a FF switch, I kept thinking it would be cool to mod the JCA with a mid scoop switch. Something like the Mid Cut on a Diezel Herbert. I think you could do it with a Twin-T Filter somehow. I know some people mod Marshalls and replace the 470/470 filters with a Twin-T filter instead for notching a frequency. I think I haven't because it is easier just to use an EQ pedal in the loop to drop one slider in most amps.

Honestly, I think one thing that makes the JCA appealing is that it would be a cool mod platform. I have been thinking about it since you got yours, lol. Of course, some days I also think about selling everything and just playing my Boss Katana Head, because it honestly sounds just about as good at home volumes.

Yes, my 2203 clone has an extra gain stage... however, I am at the point where I dont wanna mess with it anymore, lol. It sounds OK... not as awesome as it could, but I think it would benefit by higher quality transformers and such, but I am not really wanting to put more money into it. I have changed parts in it so much that it is getting weak. I even considered taking out the extra gain stage and going back to the stock Marshall gain level. Next time I open it I think I am gonna add a resistor to drop the gain some more. It has 5150 levels of gain, but also the noise that comes with it. I have changed it many times, and found some of those tones, like the Demanufacture tone, but the problem is when you dial it in for something like that, it doesn't really sound good for anything else. Kind of like those old Randalls when you play Pantera/Crowbar, or the 8100 for when you play Death/Prong. Sounds amazing for those tones, but not so great for anything else. I decided to leave it as stock JCM800 as possible so that I could hit all the classic tones, but also use pedals to hit some more extreme sounds also. I used to have the SLO tonestack in it, but eventually changed it back to JCM800 values because it no longer hit the classic sounds as well. Basically, as you increase the slope resistor, the more scooped the tone will get, but it scoops at a lower frequency. You can see this on the Duncan program.

You know, it is weird because the frequencies didn't bother me as much until the last year. I did put a new desk in that room, so who knows... maybe it did change how the room sounds or something. I had to move everything around. I have always noticed it on the Axe-FX, and had to EQ it to death, but now I am noticing it on my tube amps also. Everything always sounds too middy, lol.


----------



## budda (Jul 14, 2018)

Kyle Jordan said:


> I've wondered this as well. My guess is cost and established familiarity. Wood is very easy to work with and get set up to work with. Composite materials not quite as much, but 3D printing could change that.
> 
> I'd love to see metal shells on big heads. My worry would be bending and heavily dinging the metal on tour or gigging.



I wonder how metal would work... i imagine the non-conductive metals would still have an effect on amp noise due to components and stuff. Also the weight would need to be managed. 

@Shask "everything sounds too middy" that sounds awful dude. I wonder what may hab changed in your hearing? We were line checking a couple nights ago and my 2203 sounded weird, turns out my mid knob got bumped from 6 to 8 .


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 14, 2018)

Shask said:


> I had a Block 5150 for like 15 years or something, so that is a tone I love, but not necessarily something I want an exact duplicate of. I think that is why the JCA and 5153 50W interest me. Something with that same fat low end (like Machine Head albums), and a less gritty high end would be cool. I am sure an aggressive boost, like the MXR BAOD would help get it there.
> 
> Speaking of a FF switch, I kept thinking it would be cool to mod the JCA with a mid scoop switch. Something like the Mid Cut on a Diezel Herbert. I think you could do it with a Twin-T Filter somehow. I know some people mod Marshalls and replace the 470/470 filters with a Twin-T filter instead for notching a frequency. I think I haven't because it is easier just to use an EQ pedal in the loop to drop one slider in most amps.
> 
> ...



The JCA is an excellent modding platform, especially with the thick, through-plated board. Thats partially why I bought it, and given I got it so cheap, I don't really have any qualms about drilling holes and replacing parts on it. 

A mid scoop switch would be cool. I would also love to figure out how to implement some zener diodes without totally killing volume as well, as I'd love to be able to get more saturation out of the crunch channel, but with the new Buxom Boost clone I made, that doesn't seem to be a problem at all. 

When I moved into my current house and put all my amps in my spare room, it took me days of moving my desk, shelf, and cab around until I was happy with where things were. I like where everything is now, but it was really annoying at first. Its not really a big room, which makes potential sound issues worse, and in a lot of cab positions there were some annoying resonances, or frequencies that were canceled out almost entirely.


----------



## Shask (Jul 14, 2018)

budda said:


> I wonder how metal would work... i imagine the non-conductive metals would still have an effect on amp noise due to components and stuff. Also the weight would need to be managed.
> 
> @Shask "everything sounds too middy" that sounds awful dude. I wonder what may hab changed in your hearing? We were line checking a couple nights ago and my 2203 sounded weird, turns out my mid knob got bumped from 6 to 8 .


Yeah, I dunno, it is weird. I always noticed it in the winter. All my amps always sound worse in the winter, and my guitars play like crap... but it seems like it has never went back to "normal" since it has gotten warmer. I like more scooped sounds to begin with, but it seems like I have been unhappy with anything the last year without massive EQ cuts. My cabs have Eminence V30 type speakers, but I have owned them for 15+ years, so it is not like that is new.


----------



## Shask (Jul 14, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> The JCA is an excellent modding platform, especially with the thick, through-plated board. Thats partially why I bought it, and given I got it so cheap, I don't really have any qualms about drilling holes and replacing parts on it.
> 
> A mid scoop switch would be cool. I would also love to figure out how to implement some zener diodes without totally killing volume as well, as I'd love to be able to get more saturation out of the crunch channel, but with the new Buxom Boost clone I made, that doesn't seem to be a problem at all.
> 
> When I moved into my current house and put all my amps in my spare room, it took me days of moving my desk, shelf, and cab around until I was happy with where things were. I like where everything is now, but it was really annoying at first. Its not really a big room, which makes potential sound issues worse, and in a lot of cab positions there were some annoying resonances, or frequencies that were canceled out almost entirely.


Yeah, that is why I have always wanted a JCA also. You are making me want one again, lol. I have never really had luck with diodes in the signal path. I messed with it in the past, but using different pedals before the amp usually ends in better results, and it is easier to experiment. I always wanted something I could plug right into and get Demanufacture, but I kinda learned through years of messing with amps that sometimes it is just better to leave it alone, and use different pedals as boosts and EQ. It just seems hard to do many things in handwired tube amps.

Yeah, that is part of my issue. I have a ton of crap in a pretty tiny room. It is my office also, so I have 2 huge desks, two 212 cabs, a 112 bass combo, another utility cart type thing, and tons of gear. It looks like a living Tetris game. I have cabs under desks, speaker cables ran across the room, etc... there is really no where else to put anything. That is reason why sometimes I am half tempted to sell everything but my Katana or Axe-FX.


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## Thanatopsis (Jul 14, 2018)

I expected to see more rack gear in this thread. I've been running a Classic 60/60 & Rockmaster preamp for about 4 years. The tone left a little something to be desired when I first got it, but after changing C14 from a .001uF to .0022uF on the pre and a sniper modded GE-7 in the loop I absolutely love the thing. Used to have a VTM120 for many years, that thing was a beast.


----------



## KailM (Jul 15, 2018)

Shask said:


> Just look at how popular the 5150 III 50W is... hell, even I am thinking I want one, lol.... don't know if they can produce the deep low end though....



I think it produces ample low end. I run my resonance at around 3 o'clock (about 75%) and it thumps with the best of them. I think a lot of people don't dial them in the way I do; they want that F---ing djent tone all the time. I want (and achieve) a more old school death metal tone out of my EVH. It can *almost* match the brutality of my 120 watt 6505.


----------



## DiezelMonster (Jul 15, 2018)

Bogner XTC 101b here! I plan to add a Diezel Hagen at some point and maybe a few more of the ones I've sold in the past. 
I have to use loud tube Amps.


----------



## DiezelMonster (Jul 15, 2018)

Bogner XTC 101b here! I plan to add a Diezel Hagen at some point and maybe a few more of the ones I've sold in the past. 
I have to use loud tube Amps.


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Jul 15, 2018)

Shask said:


> Yeah, I dunno, it is weird. I always noticed it in the winter. All my amps always sound worse in the winter, and my guitars play like crap... but it seems like it has never went back to "normal" since it has gotten warmer. I like more scooped sounds to begin with, but it seems like I have been unhappy with anything the last year without massive EQ cuts. My cabs have Eminence V30 type speakers, but I have owned them for 15+ years, so it is not like that is new.



Climate Change in action.




On a serious note though, if you've noticed other odd physical changes, maybe get an appointment with your doctor setup. Not so much for your ears per se, but blood pressure strangeness can cause hearing changes. (I went through this and still deal with more ringing in my left ear when my BP is high.)


----------



## gnoll (Jul 15, 2018)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> The 5150 doesn't have send or return level controls, so bridging them with a patch cable won't do anything different. However, if you use the amp's footswitch to bypass the FX loop (it's always on unless switched off by the tip of the footswitch jack) the tone opens up and the bottom end is tight and ruthless.
> 
> This Lasse Lammert clip is of his SLO100 with and without the loop engaged, and the difference with the 5150 is at _least _as noticeable as this. It makes a huge difference in feel as well.




This is interesting to me but I don't really understand...

Why does bypassing the fx loop make a difference in the first place?

And I run a different preamp into the return of a 5150, does that do the same or a similar thing? Because then it doesn't use the send part of the loop at least I guess?

And the footswitch trick, is it that easy as just plugging in the footswitch and clicking off the loop? Would it work also for me running a different preamp? I've never used the footswitch because I've only ever really used the red channel...

I'm a bit confused by this but I want that tone improvement lol...


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 15, 2018)

gnoll said:


> This is interesting to me but I don't really understand...
> 
> Why does bypassing the fx loop make a difference in the first place?
> 
> ...



If bypassing the effects loop takes it out of the signal path (like on Mesa rectos when you hard-bypass using the switch on the back of the head) then it’s taking a tube stage out of the amp. 

At least with rectos the fx loop is not at all transparent and affects the sound a lot. Even with the levels balanced perfect there is a significant sound and response difference between loop in/out.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tube effects loop that was actually transparent.


----------



## gnoll (Jul 15, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> If bypassing the effects loop takes it out of the signal path (like on Mesa rectos when you hard-bypass using the switch on the back of the head) then it’s taking a tube stage out of the amp.
> 
> At least with rectos the fx loop is not at all transparent and affects the sound a lot. Even with the levels balanced perfect there is a significant sound and response difference between loop in/out.
> 
> I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tube effects loop that was actually transparent.



Hmm, right... But the fx loop tube is a preamp tube, so in my case I should already be bypassing it either way? Then maybe what I would really want is find out how to do the same thing with my preamp?


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 15, 2018)

gnoll said:


> Hmm, right... But the fx loop tube is a preamp tube, so in my case I should already be bypassing it either way? Then maybe what I would really want is find out how to do the same thing with my preamp?



The fx loop tube has two stages (since 12ax7’s have two amplification stages in them). One half is used for the fx send, the other for fx return. So if you are running a separate preamp into your fx return, you’re using half the fx loop tube/circuit.

There are two preamp tubes in the amp that aren’t used strictly for preamp gain/amplification. First is the fx loop tube (as stated above. Some tube amps may have solidstate fx loops though, or no fx loop). Then the phase inverter which is technically part of the poweramp. This is why most rack preamps also have a 12ax7 or 12at7 in them.


----------



## KailM (Jul 15, 2018)

Shask said:


> Speaking of mids, it seems like 500hz-800hz has really been annoying me lately for some reason. It doesn't matter what gear I am playing, everything is sounding honky and boxy. If I cut these frequencies, it sounds normal again. Today I was playing my Triple Recto, and put an EQ in the loop and scooped 800hz like -10db or something. Made it sound crazy heavy. It was like a Modern Recto sound with the Mid Scoop of a Mark IIC+. Sounded amazing.



You're not alone. I use an MXR 10-band in the loop to cut 500hz from my 6505s and 5153. The next band up on the pedal is 1 KHz, and I don't usually cut that but I certainly don't boost it. 500-750hz is the real culprit of boxy, cocked wah sound in a lot of amps -- and 5150s/6505s have way too much in that region IMO.

The EQ in the loop is the single greatest improvement to my tone I've ever achieved from any piece of gear, other than amp upgrades themselves. A lot of people are hesitant for some reason, but there's this amp called the "Mark" series or something like that that has the post-gain EQ feature built-in.  People don't hesitate to take advantage of that, and usually rave about the tone.

I boost a little at 125hz (high bass), cut 500hz by 6db, boost 2khz for grind, and cut 16khz to eliminate fizz. What I'm left with is crushing tone that still has plenty of mids to grind through a mix, but also tight yet massive low end with no fizz over the top. I've been toying with adding an MXR 6-band EQ to the loop as well since its frequency bands sit in between that of the 10-band. For even better fine-tuning...


----------



## gnoll (Jul 15, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> The fx loop tube has two stages (since 12ax7’s have two amplification stages in them). One half is used for the fx send, the other for fx return. So if you are running a separate preamp into your fx return, you’re using half the fx loop tube/circuit.
> 
> There are two preamp tubes in the amp that aren’t used strictly for preamp gain/amplification. First is the fx loop tube (as stated above. Some tube amps may have solidstate fx loops though, or no fx loop). Then the phase inverter which is technically part of the poweramp. This is why most rack preamps also have a 12ax7 or 12at7 in them.



Hmm, so in theory I'm rid of half the loop already but could get rid of the other half with the footswitch trick. But then I might still be using my preamps loop...


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 15, 2018)

gnoll said:


> Hmm, so in theory I'm rid of half the loop already but could get rid of the other half with the footswitch trick. But then I might still be using my preamps loop...



If you disable the loop you won’t be able to use it though, you’ll get no sound if you’re still trying to run your preamp into the fx return. 

What preamp are you using? Most preamps don’t have fx loops, you just put whatever effects you want to use between the preamp and the poweramp. That’s all an fx loop is, a buffered insert between the preamp and poweramp. Unbuffered effects loops exist, but they tend not to play well with some effects, or long cable runs. 

It’s just one of those things, I think my recto sounds better with the fx loop hard-bypassed, but fx loop on with an eq in the loop sounds best, since i can counteract the additional fizz it adds, and fine tune the sound at other frequencies.


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

Thanatopsis said:


> I expected to see more rack gear in this thread. I've been running a Classic 60/60 & Rockmaster preamp for about 4 years. The tone left a little something to be desired when I first got it, but after changing C14 from a .001uF to .0022uF on the pre and a sniper modded GE-7 in the loop I absolutely love the thing. Used to have a VTM120 for many years, that thing was a beast.


I have a Matrix GT1000FX.... 1000 Watts baby! Not really big iron though, lol.

I think rack tube gear is just expensive, and there are not enough cool tube preamps coming out these days to make you want it. I have always wanted a Mesa 2:90 for my Axe-FX II though. I think that would crush.

I had a Peavey 50/50 and Rockmaster many years ago (among tons of other rack gear). That was a pretty killer setup. I have considered grabbing a 60/60 also and depth modding it.... if I ever found one cheap enough to just have for the hell of it.


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

Kyle Jordan said:


> Climate Change in action.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm.... I got put on medicine last year to lower my BP. Maybe that is the issue! Damn healthier living screwing up my tone!!


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

KailM said:


> I think it produces ample low end. I run my resonance at around 3 o'clock (about 75%) and it thumps with the best of them. I think a lot of people don't dial them in the way I do; they want that F---ing djent tone all the time. I want (and achieve) a more old school death metal tone out of my EVH. It can *almost* match the brutality of my 120 watt 6505.


Cool. When I had a regular Block 5150 I think I kept the bass at 7-8 and the resonance at 8. I like that big fat low end you hear on a Machine Head, SYL, etc.... album. Yeah, I am not a Djent person at all. I prefer chunky and crunchy... like old Carcass on Necroticism, mixed with the metallic attack of old Fear Factory on Demanufacture.

I need to check one out next time I am near a Guitar Center. I have plucked around on them in the past, but not really seriously since I have been all about the Axe-FX the last few years.


----------



## gnoll (Jul 15, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> If you disable the loop you won’t be able to use it though, you’ll get no sound if you’re still trying to run your preamp into the fx return.
> 
> What preamp are you using? Most preamps don’t have fx loops, you just put whatever effects you want to use between the preamp and the poweramp. That’s all an fx loop is, a buffered insert between the preamp and poweramp. Unbuffered effects loops exist, but they tend not to play well with some effects, or long cable runs.
> 
> It’s just one of those things, I think my recto sounds better with the fx loop hard-bypassed, but fx loop on with an eq in the loop sounds best, since i can counteract the additional fizz it adds, and fine tune the sound at other frequencies.



Oh, right LOL. Yeaaahh, bummer.... It's an Engl pre, e580. I guess I'll save the loop bypassing for when I'm running just the 5150. Playing around with an eq isn't a bad idea either, though... if I had one...


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> If bypassing the effects loop takes it out of the signal path (like on Mesa rectos when you hard-bypass using the switch on the back of the head) then it’s taking a tube stage out of the amp.
> 
> At least with rectos the fx loop is not at all transparent and affects the sound a lot. Even with the levels balanced perfect there is a significant sound and response difference between loop in/out.
> 
> I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tube effects loop that was actually transparent.


You know, I bypassed my Triple Recto loop yesterday, and forgot how much more dynamic it sounds without it. I used to always play it like that, but have been using the loop more lately for EQ. I have always considered modding it to serial for years, but just never have. Don't really know why. All you do is move 3 wires.


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

KailM said:


> You're not alone. I use an MXR 10-band in the loop to cut 500hz from my 6505s and 5153. The next band up on the pedal is 1 KHz, and I don't usually cut that but I certainly don't boost it. 500-750hz is the real culprit of boxy, cocked wah sound in a lot of amps -- and 5150s/6505s have way too much in that region IMO.
> 
> The EQ in the loop is the single greatest improvement to my tone I've ever achieved from any piece of gear, other than amp upgrades themselves. A lot of people are hesitant for some reason, but there's this amp called the "Mark" series or something like that that has the post-gain EQ feature built-in.  People don't hesitate to take advantage of that, and usually rave about the tone.
> 
> I boost a little at 125hz (high bass), cut 500hz by 6db, boost 2khz for grind, and cut 16khz to eliminate fizz. What I'm left with is crushing tone that still has plenty of mids to grind through a mix, but also tight yet massive low end with no fizz over the top. I've been toying with adding an MXR 6-band EQ to the loop as well since its frequency bands sit in between that of the 10-band. For even better fine-tuning...


Yup, I am there with you. My Boss GE-7 pedal is the oldest piece of gear I still own.... I have had it for like 22 years or something. I have used it a lot through the years. I tend to cut 800hz by 8-10db, boost 1.6k 2-3 db, and boost 100hz by 2-3 db. Sometimes I will cut 400hz instead, depending on my mood that day, and which amp I am using it with. I also have a BYOC 3-band Parametric EQ pedal. I have considered picking up the MXR also. On the Axe-fX II I tend to use the 10-band a lot, and the Parametrics. I find 500hz to be the magic frequency on the Axe-FX to cut. I need to find a pedal that has a band around 630hz. On my Boss Katana I use the Parametric EQ to either cut 400hz or 630hz by 8db or so. Both sound good.

Yeah, it isn't so much about not using EQ, but more like... it seems like I can't stand any sound lately with those frequencies. Even amps that used to sound good to me are now sounding boxy. It is like everything needs a Mark series "V" EQ applied to it., lol.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 15, 2018)

Shask said:


> You know, I bypassed my Triple Recto loop yesterday, and forgot how much more dynamic it sounds without it. I used to always play it like that, but have been using the loop more lately for EQ. I have always considered modding it to serial for years, but just never have. Don't really know why. All you do is move 3 wires.



I have considered series loop mod also but I only use 7 band eq in my loop and that gets along fine with the parallel loop up at 100% mix. 

I may give it a try tomorrow with the loop bypassed it’s been ages since I played it that way. What I also like about using the loop is I’m able to turn the channel master higher and then just turn down the fx return (front ‘output’) to compensate. Big tonal differences depending on where the channel master is. I think I have it at like 9:00 or 10:00.


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> I have considered series loop mod also but I only use 7 band eq in my loop and that gets along fine with the parallel loop up at 100% mix.
> 
> I may give it a try tomorrow with the loop bypassed it’s been ages since I played it that way. What I also like about using the loop is I’m able to turn the channel master higher and then just turn down the fx return (front ‘output’) to compensate. Big tonal differences depending on where the channel master is. I think I have it at like 9:00 or 10:00.


Yeah, I tried it because the sound I keep hearing in the mids that I have talked about reminds me of when you clip a pedal input. Kind of that nasty fuzzy, boxy sound. I was trying to get back to guitar->amp, and build up to see if it is me, or if something funky is going on.

Yeah, when I use the loop, I keep the channel masters around 10-11 oclock.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive (Jul 15, 2018)

Vostre Roy said:


> Spaceman Music shop (in Ottawa I think) had a Marshall Major Full Stack (amp w/ 2x 4x15" cabinet) for sale a couple of months ago. The 5k$ price tag, as legitimate it was, was a deal breaker ahah. Reason I'd rather build myself one, its just hard to find some good 200w transformers without having to go custom.



Pretty sure you can just run 2x100w transformers in parallel. IIRC Marshall even did that with 2x50w trannies in the early 100w models.


----------



## prlgmnr (Jul 15, 2018)

Shask said:


> Hmmm.... I got put on medicine last year to lower my BP. Maybe that is the issue! Damn healthier living screwing up my tone!!


I think it might be the case that some blood pressure meds are ototoxic, I know my Dad's already terribly bad hearing got even worse after he went on various medication for heart problems.


----------



## budda (Jul 15, 2018)

Running the bass above 6 and resonance above 5 on a 5150 live is mystefying to me  where does the bassist go??


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 15, 2018)

budda said:


> Running the bass above 6 and resonance above 5 on a 5150 live is mystefying to me  where does the bassist go??



I was guilty of this.  Had a Peavey 5150(II) that I ran cranked, but had the resonance pretty high. 

BUT, I had a 5150II, and I think both the pre and power tubes were old and worn. Never bothered changing them.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jul 15, 2018)

KailM said:


> 500-750hz is the real culprit of boxy, cocked wah sound in a lot of amps -- and 5150s/6505s have way too much in that region IMO.
> 
> The EQ in the loop is the single greatest improvement to my tone I've ever achieved from any piece of gear, other than amp upgrades themselves. A lot of people are hesitant for some reason, but there's this amp called the "Mark" series or something like that that has the post-gain EQ feature built-in.  People don't hesitate to take advantage of that, and usually rave about the tone.



Bingo. +100. This bears repeating.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jul 15, 2018)

budda said:


> Running the bass above 6 and resonance above 5 on a 5150 live is mystefying to me  where does the bassist go??



... straight to hell... like the production on Metallica's AJFA... a bassist? Who needs a bassist? LOL.  

Seriously though... that is a recipe for mud and bad inarticulate tone in a live mix at loud volumes. Less is more.


----------



## Wizard of Ozz (Jul 15, 2018)

budda said:


> Running the bass above 6 and resonance above 5 on a 5150 live is mystefying to me  where does the bassist go??



... straight to hell... like the production on Metallica's AJFA... a bassist? Who needs a bassist? LOL.  

Seriously though... that is a recipe for mud and bad inarticulate tone in a live mix at loud volumes. Less is more.


----------



## gnoll (Jul 15, 2018)

But resonance is the best part of a 5150, lol!

I don't like going less than 8 lows and 9 reso. But I also haven't played live in years... Still I dunno, I feel like I'd rather the bass player just turned his volume down, ha. I need my thumpy palm mutes!


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

budda said:


> Running the bass above 6 and resonance above 5 on a 5150 live is mystefying to me  where does the bassist go??


Since we need to scoop out all of the 500hz in the guitar tone, the bassist needs to boost +12db at 500hz.


----------



## budda (Jul 15, 2018)

gnoll said:


> But resonance is the best part of a 5150, lol!
> 
> I don't like going less than 8 lows and 9 reso. But I also haven't played live in years... Still I dunno, I feel like I'd rather the bass player just turned his volume down, ha. I need my thumpy palm mutes!



The bassist and kick drum is how you get thumpy palm mutes


----------



## KailM (Jul 15, 2018)

budda said:


> Running the bass above 6 and resonance above 5 on a 5150 live is mystefying to me  where does the bassist go??



It is not THAT bassy if you're tuned to C# or D like I do. Lower than that, yeah, above 6 is a little much. I run my bass and Res at 7 usually.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 15, 2018)

On my JCA50 head I have the resonance at 10 

I’m not gigging though


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 15, 2018)

Also, there aren’t enough photos of big iron in here.


----------



## PunkBillCarson (Jul 15, 2018)

I won't lie, I typically play in E standard, so the resonance and bass on a 6505+ stays decently high for me. I'd say about 6 or 7 on both.


----------



## budda (Jul 15, 2018)

KailM said:


> It is not THAT bassy if you're tuned to C# or D like I do. Lower than that, yeah, above 6 is a little much. I run my bass and Res at 7 usually.



How do you figure? The lower you tune, the closer you get to being in bass frequencies


----------



## NateFalcon (Jul 15, 2018)

If I’m playing by myself I like the lows and resonance about 7 on both myself...but those settings change BIG TIME in a band environment, Chunking out mutes with no band behind you it’s easy to get away with extreme gain and low end, throw a band together (or start recording) and those frequencies start stepping on other frequencies and don’t focus very well usually...I never “set it and forget it”...


----------



## Cynicanal (Jul 15, 2018)

People have been using Dual Rectos on Red Modern just fine for years, and those have no negative feedback loop at all (which is similar to, but not quite the same as, running a 6505 with both Resonance and Presence dimed). Dial in properly for it, and you'll be fine.


----------



## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Also, there aren’t enough photos of big iron in here.
> 
> View attachment 62680
> 
> ...



I don't have many great pictures for some reason. Here is a bad picture of the back of my Triple Recto. You can barely see a little iron in there, lol.




Here is the Mark III I had years ago.




And just for fun, the Randall Century 200II I had:


----------



## Thanatopsis (Jul 15, 2018)

Shask said:


> I have a Matrix GT1000FX.... 1000 Watts baby! Not really big iron though, lol.
> 
> I think rack tube gear is just expensive, and there are not enough cool tube preamps coming out these days to make you want it. I have always wanted a Mesa 2:90 for my Axe-FX II though. I think that would crush.
> 
> I had a Peavey 50/50 and Rockmaster many years ago (among tons of other rack gear). That was a pretty killer setup. I have considered grabbing a 60/60 also and depth modding it.... if I ever found one cheap enough to just have for the hell of it.


I hear you, it sucks there isn't more rack gear coming out nowadays. I just love the idea of mixing and matching different pre and power amps. I lucked out on my rig, rod the Rockmaster for I think $175 and the 60/60 for $140(plus $60 shipping). I'd love 2:90 myself. Of course I'd also love a TriAxis, a VHT 2150, a CAE 3+ and plenty of other stuff. But for under $400 I have an amazing all tube rig thats as versatile as I need.

I passed over 50/50's when I was getting my setup because I was a little apprehensive about the EL84s, I've always been a 6L6 fan. I would have liked the front volume knobs and presence & resonance though.


----------



## budda (Jul 15, 2018)

I have no gut shots of gizmo, but feel free to see it in person when Im on tour!


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## Shask (Jul 15, 2018)

Thanatopsis said:


> I hear you, it sucks there isn't more rack gear coming out nowadays. I just love the idea of mixing and matching different pre and power amps. I lucked out on my rig, rod the Rockmaster for I think $175 and the 60/60 for $140(plus $60 shipping). I'd love 2:90 myself. Of course I'd also love a TriAxis, a VHT 2150, a CAE 3+ and plenty of other stuff. But for under $400 I have an amazing all tube rig thats as versatile as I need.
> 
> I passed over 50/50's when I was getting my setup because I was a little apprehensive about the EL84s, I've always been a 6L6 fan. I would have liked the front volume knobs and presence & resonance though.


I had a few Rockmasters through the years. My first one was $80, lol. I think my second was $140. I had that rig long before the Internet knew anything about gear, lol. I wouldn't buy the 50/50 today because I know more about gear, and would want 6L6s. I think I mainly got it because it had the resonance control, but nowdays I would just mod a 60/60 for a depth control, or just fix it cranked up.

I do think it is crazy how some of the prices have went up. I had a few Mesa Studio Pres also. I think I sold the last one for like $350 or $400, and now they are going for like $700 or something. It is crazy.

Years ago I wanted a Triaxis and JMP-1 in parallel. I wanted to use it with a stereo Mesa poweramp. I have an Axe-FX now, so I guess I sorta got that, lol.


----------



## NorCal_Val (Jul 15, 2018)

Guts shot of the Lee Jackson/Ampeg VL1002


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## NorCal_Val (Jul 15, 2018)

‘97 Triple Rectifier


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 15, 2018)

1000W claimed.


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## DudeManBrother (Jul 15, 2018)

The906 said:


> 1000W claimed.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 16, 2018)

The906 said:


> 1000W claimed.


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Jul 16, 2018)

Ever since I found out a Steel String Singer is basically a blackface preamp run in to an SVT power amp, I've wanted to try an tube SVT of some sort for cleans and huge tones. This thread reminded me of that. 








Go to the 9:00 mark if the video doesn't start there. 

That damn head supposedly weighs about 100 pounds...


----------



## budda (Jul 16, 2018)

Yeah svt's are heavy. My back aches any time I see one in a case.


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 16, 2018)

The906 said:


> 1000W claimed.


But will djent?


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 21, 2018)

Speaking of big iron, have any of you ever done OTP upgrades? I'm running the stock one in my JCA100HDM and I have no idea if it's worth upgrading.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 21, 2018)

Finally a decent pic of the PRS MT15 iron.


----------



## Shask (Jul 21, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Finally a decent pic of the PRS MT15 iron.


I dunno man, that OT looks pretty small to me.


----------



## mnemonic (Jul 21, 2018)

Shask said:


> I dunno man, that OT looks pretty small to me.



For a 50 watt amp I’d say they look a bit small, but it is only 14 watts. Most amps that small, the output transformer is about the size of the choke out of most amps. 

This OT size looks more in-line with what you’d see in a 2u rack poweramp. I think my 2/50/2’s output transformers are about the same size. Google for gut shots of mesas. The 2:90 looks to have similar sized output transformers, and the 50/50 and 2:50 are even smaller.


----------



## prlgmnr (Jul 21, 2018)

It's a pretty bold move turning up to the "big iron" thread with a 15 watt amp.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 21, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> It's a pretty bold move turning up to the "big iron" thread with a 15 watt amp.



Big Iron* 

*for a 15-watt amp.

Also yeah, as said in another thread, you can swap out the OT for a much bigger one, tweak some components and you got a 50watt amp.


----------



## op1e (Jul 21, 2018)

That's good to know, cause my speaker defeat button got bumped on my 6505mh 
I wanna have it made into a rack head with bigger iron and 6v6 at least.


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 21, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Big Iron*
> 
> *for a 15-watt amp.
> 
> Also yeah, as said in another thread, you can swap out the OT for a much bigger one, tweak some components and you got a 50watt amp.


I'm admittedly kind of curious how they're getting 15 watts out of a pair of 6L6s in fixed bias mode.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 21, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> I'm admittedly kind of curious how they're getting 15 watts out of a pair of 6L6s in fixed bias mode.





Duder here (amp designer) said they lowered the plate voltage.


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 21, 2018)

Ah. That'd do it. Sounds like you'd need to swap PT and OPT to get it to actually run at 50 watts, but really that isn't hard to do.


----------



## DudeManBrother (Jul 21, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Ah. That'd do it. Sounds like you'd need to swap PT and OPT to get it to actually run at 50 watts, but really that isn't hard to do.


Yeah you can see the design spec on the PT is for 305v


----------



## Shask (Jul 23, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> For a 50 watt amp I’d say they look a bit small, but it is only 14 watts. Most amps that small, the output transformer is about the size of the choke out of most amps.
> 
> This OT size looks more in-line with what you’d see in a 2u rack poweramp. I think my 2/50/2’s output transformers are about the same size. Google for gut shots of mesas. The 2:90 looks to have similar sized output transformers, and the 50/50 and 2:50 are even smaller.


That is interesting, and makes you wonder if many of the rack poweramps do not have as deep a sound as many of the big heads.


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 23, 2018)

Shask said:


> That is interesting, and makes you wonder if many of the rack poweramps do not have as deep a sound as many of the big heads.


That's certainly a possibility! It's also what gives a lot of Engls their "sound" - smaller OPTs saturate the core and compress at lower voltages (volumes) than bigger ones, not taking into account varying metallurgy etc. Replacing an Engl's OPT can in some cases really open up the bottom end (bass frequencies produce more voltage than treble frequencies).


----------



## Shask (Jul 25, 2018)

budda said:


> I wonder how metal would work... i imagine the non-conductive metals would still have an effect on amp noise due to components and stuff. Also the weight would need to be managed.
> 
> @Shask "everything sounds too middy" that sounds awful dude. I wonder what may hab changed in your hearing? We were line checking a couple nights ago and my 2203 sounded weird, turns out my mid knob got bumped from 6 to 8 .



Man, I kind of feel like a dumbass, but I think I figured this out. Over the last year I picked up 2 PRS SEs that I love. I have mostly been playing those even though I have more guitars. I have these tuned in E. Most of my life I have played in D, C, or B, but I am getting old, so they are standard tuned.  I have 9-42 strings on them because I like light, slinky strings.

Last week I was playing an older guitar that is tuned in D with 10-46 strings on it, and a 7-string with 9-54 strings. I noticed that everything sounded like 10x better. I couldn't figure out why.... because E tuning shouldn't automatically sound weaker... I mean, Metallica doesn't come out sounding like some limp-wristed pop music guy, lol. I decided that maybe it was the strings. I ordered some 9-46 and 10-52 sets. I got these put on three 25" scale guitars today, and man... what a difference! The sound is like 10x better. There is more low end chunk, more volume, and just more body overall. Those 9-42 strings just sounded like all mids, with a mix of a metal clanking grating sound. Too bad I just bought several packs of them, lol.

It is crazy because I am not new to playing or gear at all. I have played around with all kinds of strings in the past, especially since I have had wrist issues and like lighter strings.... but I have never experienced such a dramatic difference as this week. It made me think back to a lot of issues. Hopefully these wont give me wrist issues, but so far so good. Speaking of big iron.... my Kiesel with 10-52 strings and Black Winter pickups tuned in D, with a Caline Orange Burst in front of my Triple Rectifier sounded like the hammer of Thor today.


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Jul 25, 2018)

Might be a combo of guitars, pickups, and fresh ears. 

I've DESPISED 9s for decades now, but recently tried some in an effort to balance tone and tension on my 8 string and I think the longer scale helps 9s out. The right string manufacturer may be at play too. I'm still back and forth a bit with 10s on the top 6 strings, but I think a 74 may be my top limit on the 8th string. It's slightly looser than I like, but sounds best.


----------



## budda (Jul 25, 2018)

10-52 or bust. C standard or lower and 11-54 or 12-60.


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## oneblackened (Aug 4, 2018)

So I was biasing my Jet City yesterday and this is what it was set at before I biased it properly... +442VDC plate voltage, 6L6GCs... That's 11 percent plate dissipation at idle. The bias adjust on these amps has an insanely broad range.


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 4, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> So I was biasing my Jet City yesterday and this is what it was set at before I biased it properly... +442VDC plate voltage, 6L6GCs... That's 11 percent plate dissipation at idle. The bias adjust on these amps has an insanely broad range.



That’s about where my JCA50 was biased from the factory, they come biased _very_ cold. I remember when I first biased mine hotter I didn’t really like it as much since it changed the sound so much, but after starting over with totally different EQ settings, it is much fuller and thicker sounding with the bias turned up. I set mine at I think 35ma, though mine is running about 505vdc on the plates. My wall voltage is consistently 250vac though, and it’s a European 230vac head.

And yeah you can probably run almost any tubes in it, the bias range is large. At 35ma I’m only at like 2/3rds on the bias pot. and the stock low bias setting was like 1/4 or 1/3rd.


----------



## oneblackened (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm running mine at 41mA for 60% PD. I've half a mind to swap the 6L6s for EL34s at some point, though I'd have to swap the screen grid resistors.


----------



## oneblackened (Aug 7, 2018)

My addiction to big iron continues. Rev G recto on its way.


----------



## NorCal_Val (Aug 8, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> My addiction to big iron continues. Rev G recto on its way.



(From another thread)
Finally after about 3-4 years of window shopping and YouTube stalking/research
I purchased a Randall Satan!




So far, it’s as brutal/savage as expected.


----------



## wlfers (Aug 9, 2018)

Thanatopsis said:


> I expected to see more rack gear in this thread. I've been running a Classic 60/60 & Rockmaster preamp for about 4 years. The tone left a little something to be desired when I first got it, but after changing C14 from a .001uF to .0022uF on the pre and a sniper modded GE-7 in the loop I absolutely love the thing. Used to have a VTM120 for many years, that thing was a beast.



VHT 2/90/2 count? I have considered the 2150 or 2100 whenever they pop up used, but I kind of have an allergy to rack gear larger than 2u.


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## Thanatopsis (Aug 13, 2018)

athawulf said:


> VHT 2/90/2 count? I have considered the 2150 or 2100 whenever they pop up used, but I kind of have an allergy to rack gear larger than 2u.


Absolutely, 100%. Countdown to Extinction was done with a CAE 3+ pre through a 2150 and that album has some of my favourite guitar tones.


----------



## DudeManBrother (Aug 14, 2018)

This thread needs some Traynor love. The Hammond 1750R is quite a beast for 100 watts @ 4 ohm (130 watts @ 8 ohm though). I don’t know the first thing about toroidal transformers, but it seems to work well.


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## NorCal_Val (Aug 14, 2018)

Family portrait.


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## oneblackened (Oct 13, 2018)

So we've talked about big iron, but what about big glass? I'm currently in the process of modding my Rev G Dual Rec for adjustable bias, and I'm thinking I'm going to do something silly: Put the macdaddy of all octal power tubes, the KT88, in. Why? Because I can.


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Oct 13, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> So we've talked about big iron, but what about big glass? I'm currently in the process of modding my Rev G Dual Rec for adjustable bias, and I'm thinking I'm going to do something silly: Put the macdaddy of all octal power tubes, the KT88, in. Why? Because I can.



One of the reasons I circle back to some digital offerings is the ability to virtually swap power tubes easily. Mesa Marks and Rectos with KT88s? Yes please. Loved running 6550s in part with my Strategy when I owned it. 

Post up some pics and clips if you get the mod done.


----------



## oneblackened (Oct 13, 2018)

Oh it'll be done. I'm waiting on resistors rn.


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## budda (Oct 13, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> View attachment 63318
> 
> This thread needs some Traynor love. The Hammond 1750R is quite a beast for 100 watts @ 4 ohm (130 watts @ 8 ohm though). I don’t know the first thing about toroidal transformers, but it seems to work well.



This is not a YBA3 custom special though 



oneblackened said:


> So we've talked about big iron, but what about big glass? I'm currently in the process of modding my Rev G Dual Rec for adjustable bias, and I'm thinking I'm going to do something silly: Put the macdaddy of all octal power tubes, the KT88, in. Why? Because I can.



You mean KT120 yeah?


----------



## oneblackened (Oct 13, 2018)

As much as I'd like to try KT120s, I don't think my power transformer can deal with 8 amps of heater current.


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## Beheroth (Oct 13, 2018)

budda said:


> You mean KT150 yeah?


----------



## DudeManBrother (Oct 13, 2018)

budda said:


> This is not a YBA3 custom special though


I wish. I’d actually be able to mod that a little. This thing looks more like a computer inside lol


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## mnemonic (Oct 13, 2018)

Beheroth said:


> budda said:
> 
> 
> > You mean 813 yeah?


----------



## budda (Oct 13, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> I wish. I’d actually be able to mod that a little. This thing looks more like a computer inside lol



All my experiences with those make them firmly "meh". Also vintage ones cost the same haha.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Oct 13, 2018)

the newest monster in the stack with obligatory backside shots


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## DudeManBrother (Oct 13, 2018)

budda said:


> All my experiences with those make them firmly "meh". Also vintage ones cost the same haha.


Yeah the low end is quite flubby, the built in boost is far too wahhhhh sounding. I have found a combination of a few pedals and settings that do sound sick, and I like the response this amp has at 30 watts. I got the amp for like $250 or something ridiculous, and that even included the Hammond OT. I think the original toroidal OT failed because it was already pulled when I bought this. I would love to mod the low end of this tone stack and boost values, but I’m not sure how robust these PCBs are yet. I found a nice sound without mods so I’m in no real hurry to mod it, but it’s always in the back of my mind.


----------



## Soya (Oct 13, 2018)

Kyle Jordan said:


> One of the reasons I circle back to some digital offerings is the ability to virtually swap power tubes easily. Mesa Marks and Rectos with KT88s? Yes please. Loved running 6550s in part with my Strategy when I owned it.
> 
> Post up some pics and clips if you get the mod done.


I've always wanted an amp with kt88's for some reason, the few that I've heard have this low end tightness but big sound. But maybe it's just psycho-sematic since they're fairly unusual.


----------



## budda (Oct 13, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> Yeah the low end is quite flubby, the built in boost is far too wahhhhh sounding. I have found a combination of a few pedals and settings that do sound sick, and I like the response this amp has at 30 watts. I got the amp for like $250 or something ridiculous, and that even included the Hammond OT. I think the original toroidal OT failed because it was already pulled when I bought this. I would love to mod the low end of this tone stack and boost values, but I’m not sure how robust these PCBs are yet. I found a nice sound without mods so I’m in no real hurry to mod it, but it’s always in the back of my mind.



Just sell it for $300 add $300 and get the yba.


----------



## Beheroth (Oct 14, 2018)




----------



## USMarine75 (Oct 14, 2018)

Soya said:


> I've always wanted an amp with kt88's for some reason, the few that I've heard have this low end tightness but big sound. But maybe it's just psycho-sematic since they're fairly unusual.



You would think, but bigger isn't always better. The Splawn Nitro and Hotrod models with KT88s don't sound nearly as good as the 6L6 Quickrod IMO. They have too much bass and they sound kind of lifeless.

I spoke with Kyle about changing out the tubes on my KSR Ares to KT77 or 88, and even asked if they could fit KT90... his answer was why? He said he had tested it with other tubes and recommended I stick with the 6L6 and certainly try them first. And I totally agree... it sounds so good I don't have any reason to mess with it.

And overall volume ratings are subjective. My Soldano Hotrod+ 50w and especially Budda 80w are far louder than any of my 120w amps (Peavey, Splawn, Engl, etc). My 40w Bassman 410 sounds louder than them as well.

[Although... manufacturer recommendations can be wrong, too. I did ask about putting EL34 tubes in a 5150/6505 back in the day and they said why would I want to do that? And then they released the 6534 right after. I asked EVH gear the same question... and they said why, the 6534 was a failure... and then they released theirs.]


----------



## budda (Oct 14, 2018)

Soya said:


> I've always wanted an amp with kt88's for some reason, the few that I've heard have this low end tightness but big sound. But maybe it's just psycho-sematic since they're fairly unusual.



KT88's do sound massive, the decision would be the application for the amp. That's why SVT's run 6550's and why doom and post-x bands like the 200W+ KT88 amps. KT77's are bigger EL34's - I liked them in my JSX.


----------



## Cynicanal (Oct 14, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> I asked EVH gear the same question... and they said why, the 6534 was a failure... and then they released theirs.


And theirs also sounded really bad compared to the 6L6 version.

I find that it's generally best to just use whatever tubes a circuit was designed for (the big exception of course being Marshall 2203s, which sound way better with 6550s or KT88s.)


----------



## op1e (Oct 14, 2018)

budda said:


> All my experiences with those make them firmly "meh". Also vintage ones cost the same haha.


I really wanted to love mine. My $300 Peavey Ultra 120 destroyed it, no punch at all. I did like the Orange and Red channel and the seperate EQ's. Needs KT77 and a Precision Drive.


----------



## USMarine75 (Oct 15, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> I find that it's generally best to just use whatever tubes a circuit was designed for (the big exception of course being Marshall 2203s, which sound way better with 6550s or KT88s.)



Exactly. Same when people play in drop A and wonder why their pickups or amps don't sound right. Or they mismatch cabs and speakers. Certainly some of this stuff can be skillfully appropriated and happy mistakes or experiments do yield kickass results now and then - The Fender Bassman and Marshall JTM45 are perfect examples of this. But, in general most of this stuff has been designed to work a certain way.



Cynicanal said:


> And theirs also sounded really bad compared to the 6L6 version.



I think the 6534 might be the only Peavey product I've never tried lol. I actually quite liked the 3120 with EL34 and I wonder if it could fit KT77s... shame it never caught on. The only product I never liked was the XXX - it was their Engl Powerball of amps IMO.

I also really love the EL34 EVH 5153 and will probably buy one soon. I played one for about 4+ hours and almost went home with that instead of the Budda.


----------



## Cynicanal (Oct 15, 2018)

Huh, I personally didn't care all that much for the EL34 5153, at least not compared to the 6l6. The top end of the EL34 version was really dark for my taste.

I've never played a XXX, but I've heard some great tones from them from live bands. Active EQ amps are always super-weird to dial in, though.


----------



## USMarine75 (Oct 15, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> Huh, I personally didn't care all that much for the EL34 5153, at least not compared to the 6l6. The top end of the EL34 version was really dark for my taste.
> 
> I've never played a XXX, but I've heard some great tones from them from live bands. Active EQ amps are always super-weird to dial in, though.



The darker tone was exactly what I loved. Oh well, tone preference is subjective!


----------



## budda (Oct 15, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> And theirs also sounded really bad compared to the 6L6 version.
> 
> I find that it's generally best to just use whatever tubes a circuit was designed for (the big exception of course being Marshall 2203s, which sound way better with 6550s or KT88s.)



I don't know about better, but louder and much darker is correct. My bandmate has an '82 2203 with 6550's and I have an '83 with EL34's. October is the first time we're both running them dirty and the difference is clear haha.


----------



## Edika (Oct 15, 2018)

All this discussion about big Watt amps had me browsing for amps. I saw a Blackstar S1 200W for a good price and was tempted due to the KT88 but opinions about Blackstar is that they sound meh. 
I also am seeing a Carvin V3 100W and I read that they're fizzy or difficult to dial in.


----------



## Cynicanal (Oct 15, 2018)

I've heard some good tones from the Carvin V3. No personal experience, but if it's cheap, it may be worth giving it a shot.


----------



## Soya (Oct 15, 2018)

Edika said:


> All this discussion about big Watt amps had me browsing for amps. I saw a Blackstar S1 200W for a good price and was tempted due to the KT88 but opinions about Blackstar is that they sound meh.
> I also am seeing a Carvin V3 100W and I read that they're fizzy or difficult to dial in.


I think leprous makes them sound pretty good, guess it depends on what sound you're going for.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Oct 15, 2018)

Soya said:


> I think leprous makes them sound pretty good, guess it depends on what sound you're going for.


Leprous uses carvin v3s?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 15, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> I've heard some good tones from the Carvin V3. No personal experience, but if it's cheap, it may be worth giving it a shot.



If you dig it, more power to you. Personally never gelled with Carvin amps. They have this weird fuzzy character to them I find. The V3 I tried was okay, and didn't like the Legacy at all besides the clean channel.


----------



## Soya (Oct 15, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Leprous uses carvin v3s?


Blackstar series one. I believe Isahn is endorsed by them also.


----------



## budda (Oct 15, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If you dig it, more power to you. Personally never gelled with Carvin amps. They have this weird fuzzy character to them I find. The V3 I tried was okay, and didn't like the Legacy at all besides the clean channel.



But all you need is a great clean channel


----------



## Edika (Oct 16, 2018)

Soya said:


> Blackstar series one. I believe Isahn is endorsed by them also.



My problem with these amps is that they were hyped to death but almost every demo I've heard was so and so. I mean even demoers that make amps sound fantastic I wasn't blown away by their output. I don't see too many of them for sale which means they're good enough but if I get one I'll either have to try it first or buy really cheap so I can sell it quickly. 

The Carvin is going for a decent price but I'm thinking to be more sensible at this point of time. I'm leaning more into getting a Mesa Boogie again and aim for either a Mark, a Roadster/Roadking or the two channel/Reborn variants. Used prices are decent here but still I need to save up.


----------



## Soya (Oct 16, 2018)

Roadsters are excellent, my friend has one and I was really impressed with the versatility. Very different sounds available from the 4 channels.


----------



## budda (Oct 16, 2018)

Soya said:


> Roadsters are excellent, my friend has one and I was really impressed with the versatility. Very different sounds available from the 4 channels.



It's great until you only really use 1 or 2 channels 

Signed,

Former roadster owner.


----------



## USMarine75 (Oct 16, 2018)

Line 6 Vetta II 300w

/thread

lol


----------



## sakeido (Oct 16, 2018)

Edika said:


> My problem with these amps is that they were hyped to death but almost every demo I've heard was so and so. I mean even demoers that make amps sound fantastic I wasn't blown away by their output. I don't see too many of them for sale which means they're good enough but if I get one I'll either have to try it first or buy really cheap so I can sell it quickly.
> 
> The Carvin is going for a decent price but I'm thinking to be more sensible at this point of time. I'm leaning more into getting a Mesa Boogie again and aim for either a Mark, a Roadster/Roadking or the two channel/Reborn variants. Used prices are decent here but still I need to save up.



Blackstars are the most criminally underappreciated amps out there... but not the Series One. It's cool you get two fully independent EQs there with ISF on both channels but I found pretty much all the old Blackstar amps were good, but you would always attach the caveat to them: for the money. They were good amps, for the money, but just didn't have the X factor to them that most people's "short list" of tube amp manufacturers have in spades. They were a little stiff, a little harmonically simple, compared to amps from Mesa, Marshall, Peavey, EVH, etc... but the Series One wasn't really that much cheaper than its competitors, if it was at all, so why would anybody get one? The other Blackstar lines are more interesting, especially the Venue series, which is their lower end but still all tube stuff.

I had a Club 40 combo amp I used for practicing and jams and it was absolutely fantastic, for the money, but it recorded very poorly. I liked it but when I moved into my own house I was playing my Dual Rec half stack a lot more and the Club gathered dust until I eventually sold it to a buddy. I've been amp shopping lately after clearing out my second 5153 50 watt (EL34 this time) and found out Blackstar came out with a new 10th Anniversary series of low wattage, single tube, single channel amps which sound awesome in demos but I wasn't able to try... but they also came out with the Mark II Venue series.

And sweet jesus fuck, I was blown away when I tried the new Club 40. The Mark II update came with a lot of new features, like 90% power attentuation so the Club can be either 40 watts or 4, updated speaker sim output, you can use them as a USB audio interface, stuff like that, but they also updated all the channel voicings and it was a massive improvement.

I sound full shill status now but I'm talking about an amp that started as good but not great in the grand scheme of things.. now though? These are legitimate contenders, imo. Every channel was a lot better. More harmonically rich, more fluid, more responsive, and more fun to play. They seem to me like the amp you always expected Blackstar, being all former Marshall guys, would make but didn't before. Hot rod Marshall tones, for an unbeatable price. The gain channels are looser than before but in a good way - to me, the OD channel with the voicing switch in for a "modern distortion", with the ISF knob within the 10 to 2 o'clock range, sounds like a Mesa Stiletto, if the Stiletto didn't suck balls. I'm trying to line up a demo of the Stage 100 head to see if the voicing still stands up in a fully closed back cab (the Venue line is semi-open back) and to get the extra presence and resonance controls that are missing from the Club. I'll be bringing my own guitar and OD pedals with me too. 

but anyway it was an absolutely huge improvement over the old amp that I didn't expect. I really gotta recommend you guys try out the new Mark IIs next time you get a chance. They stepped it up BIG time. If Blackstar unveils updates to any of their other series this winter (imo the Series One is due for refresh) I'm going to scramble to try and demo those as well.

tl;dr try the new Mark II Blackstars. They say "Mark II" right on the front. Demo'd one this past weekend and they are a quantum leap over what Blackstar was doing before.


----------



## sakeido (Oct 16, 2018)

anyway Blackstar rant aside

I ditched Axe FX after years of modeling. If I go back it'll be Kemper, Fractal has fallen way behind on the amp modeling side of things. But fuck it, I've got a house and a Torpedo Captor. I don't need to go back.

I sold my 6505+ and wish I didn't because I finally got it dialed after I confirmed the sale. Have missed that tone ever since but I still haven't tried the OG 5150 so I'm waiting for one to pop up used local so I can finally give it a go.

Tried a bunch of stuff but the Dual Rec is my favorite amp I've ever played. I bought one new way back when, eventually sold it for peanuts, tried quite a few different amps after that (Mark IV, Stiletto Deuce, Invader, Diezel VH4, 6L6 and EL34 5153s) but I always come back to the Recto. I traded some guy my old Engl Invader for that Dual Rec and the matching 4x12 OS straight cab. I came out way, way ahead in that deal... the Invader sucks.

@Edika watch Lasse Lamert's vids of 2chan Dual Rec vs. 3 chan. They sound the same. Internet kool aid is quite a powerful thing.


----------



## Soya (Oct 16, 2018)

budda said:


> It's great until you only really use 1 or 2 channels
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Former roadster owner.


Going from a roadster to a jcm800, think you're the anomaly


----------



## Cynicanal (Oct 16, 2018)

sakeido said:


> @Edika watch Lasse Lamert's vids of 2chan Dual Rec vs. 3 chan. They sound the same. Internet kool aid is quite a powerful thing.


We're you listening at 480p or something? The 2 was miles better than the 3, entirely different texture and better attack. And I say that as someone who didn't even know which was which because I mostly skipped the talky-talk part to get to the actual comparison, and the thought that "2" and "3" on the amp-switcher was probably a mnemonic was totally lost on me.


----------



## mnemonic (Oct 16, 2018)

I don’t think there was much difference at all between them, I doubt I’d be able to pick them out in a blind test. I’m interested to know what the feel difference there is between them though, if any. That’s one thing he didn’t discuss. In my experience the feel can make two amps totally different to the player, even if indistinguishable to someone else listening. 

Only somewhat relevant, but in the axe FX there is a 2 channel rev F model and a 3 channel model, cliff never said what year the 3 channel model was so everyone assumed it was a pre-2010 non-multiwatt version. Vast majority of the discussion of that model is talking about how it’s fuzzier and looser and an overall worse model than the 2 channel model.

The other day cliff posted that their 3 channel is a 2014, so a multiwatt Recto. The model everyone seems to say is as good or better than the 2 channels, and has a bit more of the ‘pre-500’ sound going on. I wonder if people are suddenly going to start liking that model now.

What people tell you is good and bad certainly can fuel your experiences.


----------



## sakeido (Oct 16, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> We're you listening at 480p or something? The 2 was miles better than the 3, entirely different texture and better attack. And I say that as someone who didn't even know which was which because I mostly skipped the talky-talk part to get to the actual comparison, and the thought that "2" and "3" on the amp-switcher was probably a mnemonic was totally lost on me.



Well all the computers I use default to 1080p. I listened on studio monitors in a shitty (but treated) room... then on headphones just to be sure

"entirely different" texture?? sure thing boss 



mnemonic said:


> I don’t think there was much difference at all between them, I doubt I’d be able to pick them out in a blind test. I’m interested to know what the feel difference there is between them though, if any. That’s one thing he didn’t discuss. In my experience the feel can make two amps totally different to the player, even if indistinguishable to someone else listening.
> 
> Only somewhat relevant, but in the axe FX there is a 2 channel rev F model and a 3 channel model, cliff never said what year the 3 channel model was so everyone assumed it was a pre-2010 non-multiwatt version. Vast majority of the discussion of that model is talking about how it’s fuzzier and looser and an overall worse model than the 2 channel model.
> 
> ...



The Axe FX 3 channel Recto doesn't sound like any Rectifier I've ever heard and fell firmly into the category of "useless models" on there for me.. ditto for the 2 channel Recto sounds, all the FAS tones, the 5153 models. There are five bad models on there for each good one.

Using a loadbox to get a mic level signal, running that into the Axe and using their cab sims is how my Axe 2 spent the first couple years of its life. Really good unit for that plus effects but lately I've even preferred pedals over all-in-ones. Plus they are cheap, so you can constantly feed your GAS with small, mostly justifiable acquisitions throughout the year.


----------



## budda (Oct 16, 2018)

Soya said:


> Going from a roadster to a jcm800, think you're the anomaly



I had a high gain head between the two haha.

I havent missed my roadster since I sold it.


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## oneblackened (Oct 16, 2018)

The 2 vs 3 thing is very obvious to me as someone who has owned both at some point. The 2 channels are considerably tighter feeling and the low end is not the same. Modern mode is not usable on the non-multiwatts IME.


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## bubucci (Oct 17, 2018)

Soya said:


> Going from a roadster to a jcm800, think you're the anomaly


I call it grown up 

One of the biggest iron I came thru is Masotti Slave100 poweramp, with X3M preamp. Pure wall of sound and raw punch.


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## BadSeed (Oct 17, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> The 2 vs 3 thing is very obvious to me as someone who has owned both at some point. The 2 channels are considerably tighter feeling and the low end is not the same. Modern mode is not usable on the non-multiwatts IME.



Coming from someone who was a long time Rectifier hater, as I'd only owned 3 channel versions, I bought 2 channel Triple Rectifier last year for a crazy $600, mint with cover and footswitch, to flip for a profit, as I often do. I plugged it in, just out of curiosity, and knew within a few minutes I'd be keeping it. It was obvioudly, very similar, but had more tightness, attack, and the big thing, rawness to the upper mids that really sealed the deal for me. I picked up a 3 ch Triple shortly after getting the 2 ch, and while I could get them close, the 2 ch won out to my ears for the reasons above.

Anyways, as far as big iron amps, my diezel Herbert is a monster, and I love the push that thing has while remaining tight. The splawn quick rod ain't bad either, big ol' classic tone trannies in that thing.


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## oneblackened (Oct 21, 2018)

Update: KT88s in a 2 channel is life. You owe it to yourself to do this if you tune low. You know how Rectos mush out on palm mutes tuned low? They don't with 88s. At all.


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## Andromalia (Oct 24, 2018)

> I ditched Axe FX after years of modeling. If I go back it'll be Kemper, Fractal has fallen way behind on the amp modeling side of things


If you were living in a cave, they released the axe FX III. If that's "way behind" for you, I want to know what product is "way ahead".


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## eggy in a bready (Oct 24, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Update: KT88s in a 2 channel is life. You owe it to yourself to do this if you tune low. You know how Rectos mush out on palm mutes tuned low? They don't with 88s. At all.


I've thought about doing this. It just seems stupid to use 88s in a 100w amp


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## Soya (Oct 25, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Update: KT88s in a 2 channel is life. You owe it to yourself to do this if you tune low. You know how Rectos mush out on palm mutes tuned low? They don't with 88s. At all.


What has to be done to run kt88's in a dual rec? Just a bias readjustment or more serious work?


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## budda (Oct 25, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> I've thought about doing this. It just seems stupid to use 88s in a 100w amp



It really isnt.


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## eggy in a bready (Oct 25, 2018)

Word. Guess i'll try it then


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## oneblackened (Oct 26, 2018)

Soya said:


> What has to be done to run kt88's in a dual rec? Just a bias readjustment or more serious work?


adjustable bias, that's about it. Arguably you'd need to change the bias feed resistors to 100k, but it's not really that important.


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## sakeido (Oct 26, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Update: KT88s in a 2 channel is life. You owe it to yourself to do this if you tune low. You know how Rectos mush out on palm mutes tuned low? They don't with 88s. At all.



what's wrong with OD pedals?


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## Cynicanal (Oct 26, 2018)

I've never heard an OD pedal that gives as satisfying of an initial "POW" when you hit a palm-muted 8th note as a tight amp straight-in does. An OD's compression is a totally different feel.


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## budda (Oct 26, 2018)

sakeido said:


> what's wrong with OD pedals?



Having an EL34 JCM800 running an OCD, and comparing it to a 6550 modded JCM800 running a green rhino, I can tell you that it's still a different beast . Putting 6550/KT88's in things just makes them sound bigger.


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## oneblackened (Oct 26, 2018)

budda said:


> Having an EL34 JCM800 running an OCD, and comparing it to a 6550 modded JCM800 running a green rhino, I can tell you that it's still a different beast . *Putting 6550/KT88's in things just makes them sound bigger.*


----------



## op1e (Oct 26, 2018)

Overdrive or not, big glass kicks ass.


----------



## USMarine75 (Oct 26, 2018)

op1e said:


> Overdrive or not, big glass kicks ass.



My wife agrees... wait sorry wrong thread.


----------



## budda (Oct 26, 2018)

op1e said:


> Overdrive or not, big glass kicks ass.



Brb, making a run of shirts


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## oneblackened (Oct 27, 2018)

The only thing I will say, though... if you like the top end grind that 6L6s have, don't expect it from 88s biased correctly. They're not real glassy on top the way 6L6s are.


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## oneblackened (Nov 2, 2018)

I decided to do something dumb and essentially gut my JCA100HDM and build a C3 Amps SLO clone in it, but with EL34s.

Why? More like why not?


----------



## narad (Nov 2, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> The only thing I will say, though... if you like the top end grind that 6L6s have, don't expect it from 88s biased correctly. They're not real glassy on top the way 6L6s are.



Id also describe 6l6s as glassy, for some reason, but in my head that means less grind. How did we ever create these words for sound??


----------



## oneblackened (Nov 3, 2018)

narad said:


> Id also describe 6l6s as glassy, for some reason, but in my head that means less grind. How did we ever create these words for sound??


I feel like my idea of Glassy is "extended and somewhat accentuated", which 6L6s are. That translates the gain from the (quite presence-y and grindy) preamp pretty honestly. KT88s roll that off some in a nice way, kinda like an EL34?


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## budda (Nov 3, 2018)

I had to retube both my JCM800 and my twin when they blew fuses a week ago. The twin was going to get it done later this month anyway, but the JCM800 was a rude surprise. It turns out one of my EL34's took out the fuse. I had the quad I bought last winter waiting to go in, and when the tech got them he pointed out that the bias circuit had been modded and that the tubes I had were drifting. We ended up putting the bias back to stock, and I had to buy another quad because two of mine were still drifting. I have to email the tube store and ask what's up (not that I expect them to do much).

But now my amps are retubed, biased and roaring .


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## Shask (Nov 3, 2018)

budda said:


> I had to retube both my JCM800 and my twin when they blew fuses a week ago. The twin was going to get it done later this month anyway, but the JCM800 was a rude surprise. It turns out one of my EL34's took out the fuse. I had the quad I bought last winter waiting to go in, and when the tech got them he pointed out that the bias circuit had been modded and that the tubes I had were drifting. We ended up putting the bias back to stock, and I had to buy another quad because two of mine were still drifting. I have to email the tube store and ask what's up (not that I expect them to do much).
> 
> But now my amps are retubed, biased and roaring .


From what I have read, it seems like EL34s are getting more inconsistent these days. Seems to be one reason why many new amps are 6L6 based.


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## budda (Nov 3, 2018)

Shask said:


> From what I have read, it seems like EL34s are getting more inconsistent these days. Seems to be one reason why many new amps are 6L6 based.



Has anyone cited that as why their amps are 6L6? 

Any links to these readings? As an EL34 guy Im curious!


----------



## mnemonic (Nov 3, 2018)

I remember Dave Friedman having some things to say about current production EL34’s on the ToneTalk episode with Kyle Rhodes, when they got to talking about Jose-Marshall amps. 

Apparently he’s been having a hell of a time finding something reliable to put in amps. He did recommend some specific tubes (something Russian I think) and maybe mentioned alternatives. I forget the specifics. 

I remember Steve Fryette saying there were similar problems in maybe the 80’s or 90’s (I forget when) which is why they put 6L6 switches in their amps and power amps at the time. I wonder if they’ll bring that back.


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## budda (Nov 3, 2018)

I wonder if we can poll some amp techs and see if they agree.


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## Shask (Nov 3, 2018)

Yeah, they had the same issue in the 80's and 90's, which is why many later JCM800s, and JCM900s came with 5881 tubes stock. 5881 tubes are a variation of 6L6s. I also think that is one reason why you seen 6550's in JCM800s also.


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## oneblackened (Nov 3, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> I remember Dave Friedman having some things to say about current production EL34’s on the ToneTalk episode with Kyle Rhodes, when they got to talking about Jose-Marshall amps.
> 
> Apparently he’s been having a hell of a time finding something reliable to put in amps. He did recommend some specific tubes (something Russian I think) and maybe mentioned alternatives. I forget the specifics.
> 
> I remember Steve Fryette saying there were similar problems in maybe the 80’s or 90’s (I forget when) which is why they put 6L6 switches in their amps and power amps at the time. I wonder if they’ll bring that back.


 The only EL34s I haven't had problems with at some point were JJs... and not everybody is a fan of those. I hear the Tung-Sol EL34B is supposed to sound great, but I've not tried it - and the EH EL34s I used were kinda crap.

Guys I miss Winged C...



Shask said:


> Yeah, they had the same issue in the 80's and 90's, which is why many later JCM800s, and JCM900s came with 5881 tubes stock. 5881 tubes are a variation of 6L6s. I also think that is one reason why you seen 6550's in JCM800s also.


 5881s and 6550s are almost hilariously more durable than EL34s. They're way more robustly supported in the envelope and 5881s in particular were originally a military grade tube.


----------



## mnemonic (Nov 3, 2018)

The EH 6CA7 is supposed to be very robust, and is also a drop in replacement for EL34’s but I’m told in sound it is half EL34 and half 6L6 or 6550, depending on who you talk to. 

That description interests me, and I’ve been meaning to get a duet for one side of my 2/50/2, but I just haven’t got around to it yet. Plus whatever EL34’s are in there now sound great and cope fine with the high plate voltage.


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## cwhitey2 (Nov 3, 2018)

I have owned 4 el34 amps and have not had any issues with them. I retubed 3 of them...

Is this issue a recent thing?


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## mnemonic (Nov 3, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> I have owned 4 el34 amps and have not had any issues with them. I retubed 3 of them...
> 
> Is this issue a recent thing?



I think it depends on the amp and it’s B+ voltage. If your amp is in the 400v range then you’re in-spec of most tubes. But a lot of amps run in the region of 480v to 500v and sometimes even more. This can be tough on tubes and is over spec for a lot of EL34’s.


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## cwhitey2 (Nov 3, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> I think it depends on the amp and it’s B+ voltage. If your amp is in the 400v range then you’re in-spec of most tubes. But a lot of amps run in the region of 480v to 500v and sometimes even more. This can be tough on tubes and is over spec for a lot of EL34’s.


Ok that makes sense then.


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## oneblackened (Nov 3, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> I think it depends on the amp and it’s B+ voltage. If your amp is in the 400v range then you’re in-spec of most tubes. But a lot of amps run in the region of 480v to 500v and sometimes even more. This can be tough on tubes and is over spec for a lot of EL34’s.


The problem is mostly the screen voltages. EL34s as designed can take 800V-ish on the plates. The screens, however, are usually 425-450V. If you have a power supply with separate plate and screen rails then it's not a problem, but if you don't (like pretty much every guitar amp), well...


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## Cynicanal (Nov 3, 2018)

Interesting that plate voltage is the problem; one of the widely-speculated reasons that Bogner switched to 6L6s on the 20A XTC and KT88s on the 20A Shiva and TJ Uberschall was because of tube quality issues (on their website, they outright say that only SED Winged C work properly in their EL34 amps, even though they obviously don't ship with that anymore...), and Bogners have always run at high plate voltages. The earlier revisions of the non 20A amps, which most people seem to think sound better, ran at even higher voltages than current production Bogner EL34 amps, and one of the voicing differences in the 20A amps (and TJ) is that they run at _really_ high plate voltages.


----------



## mnemonic (Nov 3, 2018)

Fun fact, some of the revisions the VHT/Fryette Ultralead went though in the 90’s were due to tube reliability issues. 



> Props to NoGodsNoMasters for this info:
> 
> The "One Hundred" was the predecessor of the UL. Basically configured from the pre of the Classic head, 3 channels, and one output side of the 2150, thus two power tubes, using an output transformer from a 2150.
> 
> ...


----------



## oneblackened (Nov 3, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> Interesting that plate voltage is the problem; one of the widely-speculated reasons that Bogner switched to 6L6s on the 20A XTC and KT88s on the 20A Shiva and TJ Uberschall was because of tube quality issues (on their website, they outright say that only SED Winged C work properly in their EL34 amps, even though they obviously don't ship with that anymore...), and Bogners have always run at high plate voltages. The earlier revisions of the non 20A amps, which most people seem to think sound better, ran at even higher voltages than current production Bogner EL34 amps, and one of the voicing differences in the 20A amps (and TJ) is that they run at _really_ high plate voltages.


Bogner also runs a number of voltages WAY over spec (namely the screen voltage) - and EL34s were never a particularly robust tube to begin with, even NOS. Why do you think Marshall's importer in the 70s requested they use 6550s? It wasn't not a tone thing, it was a reliability thing. EL34s are absurdly fragile compared to most other common power tubes (even the relatively similar in design EL84s, which inexplicably can run well over spec and not die literally all the time... well, sorta).

I'd like to see KT77s used in EL34 amps more, as they're a beam tetrode with both available models (JJ and GL) with much higher G2 voltage design limits than EL34s (600V vs 450V). They're not quite an EL34 tonally but they're pretty close.


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## Cynicanal (Nov 3, 2018)

I'd always heard that the reason for using 6550s in the late 70s and early 80s was because of tube availability; EL34s were a British tube and harder to get replacements for in the U.S. than 6550s.


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## Seabeast2000 (Nov 3, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> I'd always heard that the reason for using 6550s in the late 70s and early 80s was because of tube availability; EL34s were a British tube and harder to get replacements for in the U.S. than 6550s.


I have heard specifically in the 80's, 2x 6550's being back-engineered into quad 6L6 power stages due to shitty 6L6 sourcing/quality.


----------



## oneblackened (Nov 3, 2018)

On the subject of small glass, btw, I'm convinced there is no better preamp tube on the market than the JJ ECC83MG. That tube is basically everything I like about the short plate JJ ECC83S (quiet AF) and everything I like about the Tungsol RI (really nice and clear) but without the bad characteristics of either (less compressed than the ECC83S; not harsh or noisy like the Tung-Sol). I actually like them more than the NOS RFTs I've got lying around.


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## oneblackened (Nov 13, 2018)

Do speaker magnets count as big iron? Because I just got a G12K100 and the magnet on that thing is fucking enormous.


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## Soya (Nov 14, 2018)

oneblackened said:


> Do speaker magnets count as big iron? Because I just got a G12K100 and the magnet on that thing is fucking enormous.


Only counts if it's an evm-12l, and bonus points if you have 4 of them in a 4x12.


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## oneblackened (Jan 5, 2019)

I'm very scared I blew up my Recto's output transformer. But... might be an opportunity for bigger iron.


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## mnemonic (Jan 6, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> I'm very scared I blew up my Recto's output transformer. But... might be an opportunity for bigger iron.



Always look on the bright side. What happened?

I’ve always kinda wondered this too, rectos already sound huge but their output transformers tend to be a bit undersized. Makes me wonder how huge they can get, with even larger iron.




In other news, Maxwatt 400 watt 8 x KT88 bass amp


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## budda (Jan 6, 2019)

Basically an SVT with 2 extra tubes and 2 extra inputs in terms of size


----------



## FitRocker33 (Jan 6, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> Always look on the bright side. What happened?
> 
> I’ve always kinda wondered this too, rectos already sound huge but their output transformers tend to be a bit undersized. Makes me wonder how huge they can get, with even larger iron.
> 
> ...



Jeeeez that thing must weigh a metric ton. Between that and an ampeg 8x10 you’ve got all the fixins for back surgery.


----------



## oneblackened (Jan 6, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> Always look on the bright side. What happened?


 Uh.... I may or may not have had my load box fail (I actually mean may or may not, I haven't figured that out!) so it may have been running with no load for an extended period of time.

Also, those JJ KT88s in that Maxwatt? Yes please. I love JJ 88s.


----------



## mnemonic (Jan 6, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> Uh.... I may or may not have had my load box fail (I actually mean may or may not, I haven't figured that out!) so it may have been running with no load for an extended period of time.
> 
> Also, those JJ KT88s in that Maxwatt? Yes please. I love JJ 88s.



Man that’s a bummer. That’s what has always kinda made me nervous about load boxes and attenuators.

And it looks like it, I think I can see the logo on the side.

I wonder how much it costs to retube.


----------



## oneblackened (Jan 6, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> I wonder how much it costs to retube.


 Well, from Eurotubes (pretty much the only place I'll buy JJs because of how stringently they test)... a matched octet of 88s is $316 before shipping.


mnemonic said:


> Man that’s a bummer. That’s what has always kinda made me nervous about load boxes and attenuators.


 Yeah, I need to try through my cab to see if I didn't just pop a tube or something.

UPDATE: I think it's my load box. Through my cab the amp is working fine... but the Northern Electric branded TJ FullMusic 12AX7 I bought for $60 shipped has gone noisy in under 4 hours of use!


----------



## sakeido (Mar 18, 2019)

Back to a tower of power. Dude was selling this 6505+ combo conversion so cheap I figured why not 

It has been modded or something though. Sounds completely different than my old 6505+ head. It's substantially less pissed off sounding. He mentioned mods to the clean channel, which actually sounds pretty good now, and also a bias mod. I am assuming the bias mod is what has changed the sound so much - it is way darker and less gainy than I expect a 6505+ to be.

on the lead channel I have the gain almost dimed and presence at like 9.5 to get it to where I want. he's swapped all the tubes around too - I believe there are tung sols in it right now. If I want to get back to the harsher classic 6505 sound what 12AX7s do you recommend? 

I'm also batting around the idea of switching out all the pots on the amp to the US spec ones instead of the made in China 6505+ combo ones


----------



## DudeManBrother (Mar 18, 2019)

sakeido said:


> Back to a tower of power. Dude was selling this 6505+ combo conversion so cheap I figured why not
> 
> It has been modded or something though. Sounds completely different than my old 6505+ head. It's substantially less pissed off sounding. He mentioned mods to the clean channel, which actually sounds pretty good now, and also a bias mod. I am assuming the bias mod is what has changed the sound so much - it is way darker and less gainy than I expect a 6505+ to be.
> 
> ...


Using a variable resistor in a fixed bias amp is great if you know what you’re doing. It’s potentially terrible if not haha. It’s possible that the bias is set very low; it’s possible that you have worn out tubes; it’s possible that whoever “modded” the amp had no idea what they were doing, or were sloppy, and it will need some bench time to diagnose. 

Start with a known good quad of 6L6GC tubes, plus a known good 12ax7 to roll into each pre socket, and go from there.


----------



## budda (Mar 18, 2019)

Is it a 120w combo or a 60w combo? If its 60W thats why it sounds different.


----------



## sakeido (Mar 18, 2019)

It's the 60 watt combo. With the Torpedo Captor -20dB attenuator I can turn it up to 8 and still have it reasonable volume which is pretty badass. It is short one preamp tube vs. the head version but iirc the tube that's missing doesn't affect the gain channel.

The bias mod wasn't variable, it's fixed on the combo version. He replaced the resistors in the stock bias circuit to change the bias. 220k originally to 200k now. I have no idea what the bias would have ended up at and no probe to check with... I might pick one up just to test it out and maybe reverse the mod. It's a lot fatter and warmer than my 6505+ head was but I prefer the colder sound.. I ordered up some electro harmonix tubes to try and brighten it up and get more gain back in it so we'll try those out before cracking it open 

That said it still sounds sick but only with my brighter voiced guitars. The fatter ones sound too dark with the amp the way it is


----------



## oneblackened (Mar 18, 2019)

What that lack of preamp tube _does_ do is change the phase inverter design. The heads (and the 2x12 combo) use a Long Tail Pair phase inverter - the usual high headroom, high power design. It takes an entire 12A_7 tube. The 6505+ combo uses a split load/cathodyne/concertina phase inverter, which only uses half a 12A_7. Cathodynes have substantially less headroom than an LTPI and are only common in sub-20 watt amps. 
The choice to do that was absolutely baffling to me because it totally changes the feel of the amp to something significantly squishier. You wanna know why the 6505+ combo doesn't sound like the head? That's the big one.


----------



## sakeido (Mar 18, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> What that lack of preamp tube _does_ do is change the phase inverter design. The heads (and the 2x12 combo) use a Long Tail Pair phase inverter - the usual high headroom, high power design. It takes an entire 12A_7 tube. The 6505+ combo uses a split load/cathodyne/concertina phase inverter, which only uses half a 12A_7. Cathodynes have substantially less headroom than an LTPI and are only common in sub-20 watt amps.
> The choice to do that was absolutely baffling to me because it totally changes the feel of the amp to something significantly squishier. You wanna know why the 6505+ combo doesn't sound like the head? That's the big one.



interesting... I've got nothing against some squish, it's more the tonal balance being so much darker than I expected that's gettin my goat right now. is this cathodyne thing a big part of that or will I be able to tip the balance back towards the fizz with a tube change and going back to a colder bias?


----------



## NosralTserrof (Mar 18, 2019)

I have an Orange AD140. 

It's amazing.


----------



## budda (Mar 18, 2019)

NosralTserrof said:


> I have an Orange AD140.
> 
> It's amazing.



We shared a space with one. I really wanted it but he isnt going to sell. Sounds killer on both channels.


----------



## NosralTserrof (Mar 18, 2019)

budda said:


> We shared a space with one. I really wanted it but he isnt going to sell. Sounds killer on both channels.



Dang. It really is an amazing amp. On the topic of tubes, Channel 1 can get too hot for my liking so I put a 12AT7 in the preamp section for channel 1 and it sounds great. Cleans aren't pristine but that + a klone = the best dirty clean i've played.


----------



## oneblackened (Mar 19, 2019)

Oh, also - I have a Jet City Amelia coming in. Oddly enough, it calls for 6550s in some places but clearly it's not intended to have those... 


sakeido said:


> interesting... I've got nothing against some squish, it's more the tonal balance being so much darker than I expected that's gettin my goat right now. is this cathodyne thing a big part of that or will I be able to tip the balance back towards the fizz with a tube change and going back to a colder bias?


 You should be able to bring some fizz back by biasing colder. That's crossover distortion. I recall the combo being considerably less bright than the head too, fwiw.


----------



## Necky379 (Mar 19, 2019)

I love my big iron. I meant to share some photos when this thread started, I was just reading through it and thought “better late than never”. Here’s my Peavey Roadmaster, 160 watt 6L6 guitar amp. I’ve got to redo the grill cloth, it was the first one I did like this and I didn’t staple it down as tight as I should have on the corners.





















Right now it’s being used as a power section for my 5150 so that I can run the 5150 to a 16 ohm 1960TV and the Roadmaster, fed by the preamp out (ge-7 to take the signal down a little), run into an 8 ohm Recto cab. It sounds glorious. It’s way too loud but making noise isn’t an issue here and fuck it why not.


----------



## mnemonic (Mar 19, 2019)

Don’t see those Valvulators that often these days. A little bit of extra iron.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2019)

Yes! We played with a RI band with a roadmaster and ive been hoping to find a cheap one since.

No fun to retube but hella wattage.


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## Necky379 (Mar 19, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> Don’t see those Valvulators that often these days. A little bit of extra iron.


Pretty unnecessary (to continue the theme ) considering the simple effects chain I’m using and fairly short cables/active pickups but I like the way it sounds. It’s subtle but “a little bit of extra” is a good way to describe it. Everything I put it in front of just sounds better. Plus it has two outputs for dual amp rigs and 9 volt outputs.


budda said:


> Yes! We played with a RI band with a roadmaster and ive been hoping to find a cheap one since.
> 
> No fun to retube but hella wattage.


They’re great for running pedals through and headroom for days. Lots of options for sounds, two channels with separate eq’s and pull out switchable pots for different mid range tones and brightness. Far from modern sounding but with the right boost it does metal tones. Not a fan of the built in Reverb and the presence knob goes from blanketed to unpleasant in a very small area. I’ve seen a few come up for sale since I picked this up, definitely worth snagging one. I’m surprised they aren’t more popular with doom/stoner rock guys.


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## Thaeon (Mar 19, 2019)

Currently using a Mesa Triple Rectifier and a Rivera Knucklehead II Reverb in stereo. Mesa is on an Omega ported 112, and the Rivera is on an Orange PPC212.


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## oneblackened (Mar 19, 2019)

While I'm working on my DR today (depth pot, no more useless modern mode) I'm debating throwing in the 1.8k primary Heyboer OT I've got, just to see what happens. Could be cool, it's like double the size of the stock Shumacher.


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## BuckarooBanzai (Mar 19, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> Currently using a Mesa Triple Rectifier and a Rivera Knucklehead II Reverb in stereo. Mesa is on an Omega ported 112, and the Rivera is on an Orange PPC212.



I bought a Rivera M100 from a meth-head on Reverb and it sounds absolutely massive (after changing out the 35-year-old mismatched power tubes, at least). The iron on that thing is colossal... it's currently out of its cabinet and the transformers that it's sitting on keep it from falling over on the table. I never play the damn thing since my Bandmaster gets into the power section sweet spot way quicker but when I do crank it through a quad of G12K-100s it sounds glorious. I kind of regret purchasing it since it doesn't get much mileage, but damn, is that thing sweet, especially with the Ninja Boost. SRV for days, and I don't even _like_ SRV!


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## Thaeon (Mar 19, 2019)

Mo Jiggity said:


> I bought a Rivera M100 from a meth-head on Reverb and it sounds absolutely massive (after changing out the 35-year-old mismatched power tubes, at least). The iron on that thing is colossal... it's currently out of its cabinet and the transformers that it's sitting on keep it from falling over on the table. I never play the damn thing since my Bandmaster gets into the power section sweet spot way quicker but when I do crank it through a quad of G12K-100s it sounds glorious. I kind of regret purchasing it since it doesn't get much mileage, but damn, is that thing sweet, especially with the Ninja Boost. SRV for days, and I don't even _like_ SRV!



Dude, you're not lying. My Knucklehead is bonkers. I haven't opened it up much at all. It's at LEAST as loud as my Triple Rectifier and only sports 66.6% (giggity) of the wattage. I got it for a really stupid deal. Replaced the pre amp tubes with Tung Sol's and a Sovtek LPS for the PI. Its an early 2000's model and could probably use a recap. The idea that it could sound better just blows my mind. Can't wait till my Oni is done so I can crank the two heads and rip.


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## Thaeon (Mar 19, 2019)

Here’s a picture for reference.


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## DudeManBrother (Mar 19, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> While I'm working on my DR today (depth pot, no more useless modern mode) I'm debating throwing in the 1.8k primary Heyboer OT I've got, just to see what happens. Could be cool, it's like double the size of the stock Shumacher.


Do it! Man I bet it would sound awesome. I wonder what the inductance of the Heyboer is; and will increase the bass even more? Swap that shit haha.


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## BuckarooBanzai (Mar 20, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> Dude, you're not lying. My Knucklehead is bonkers. I haven't opened it up much at all. It's at LEAST as loud as my Triple Rectifier and only sports 66.6% (giggity) of the wattage. I got it for a really stupid deal. Replaced the pre amp tubes with Tung Sol's and a Sovtek LPS for the PI. *Its an early 2000's model and could probably use a recap.* The idea that it could sound better just blows my mind. Can't wait till my Oni is done so I can crank the two heads and rip.



I'm not a EE but I don't think an 18-year-old amp needs a recap quite yet...


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## Shask (Mar 20, 2019)

Mo Jiggity said:


> I'm not a EE but I don't think an 18-year-old amp needs a recap quite yet...


18-20 years or so is generally when it can start being considered. That depends on a lot of course though... how much it is used, if it is high gain, if it is noisy, etc....


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## oneblackened (Mar 20, 2019)

18-20 years is sort of the minimum for more expensive amps. Cheaper amps you should consider it sooner because they use cheaper caps (e.g. my Mesa has all Spragues, which pretty much guaranteed last longer than the no-name Chinese stuff in my Jet City).


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## Thaeon (Mar 20, 2019)

DudeManBrother said:


> While I'm working on my DR today (depth pot, no more useless modern mode) I'm debating throwing in the 1.8k primary Heyboer OT I've got, just to see what happens. Could be cool, it's like double the size of the stock Shumacher.



Would be cool to hear your findings on that. My Rivera is one of the heaviest amps I've ever picked up outside a bass amp. I don't think it need more iron. The Mesa though... I've heard people have good results with changing transformers out. Particularly the OT. Mine's still under warranty, so no experimenting for me. Yet.


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## oneblackened (Mar 25, 2019)

Those of you who use big boy power tubes (that is, KT88s and 6550s) - are the Tung-Sol 6550s any good?


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## Thaeon (Mar 25, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> Those of you who use big boy power tubes (that is, KT88s and 6550s) - are the Tung-Sol 6550s any good?



I don't know about those specific tubes. But I've not had any issues with any tubes from that plant. Man, if you can get some of the Gold Lion power tubes. Holy shit. I had some Gold Lion KT66s in a Budda Superdrive and that amp was monster without them. With them...

I miss that amp.


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## efiltsohg (Mar 26, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> Those of you who use big boy power tubes (that is, KT88s and 6550s) - are the Tung-Sol 6550s any good?



Supposedly bright sounding. Like anything New Sensor: may or may not actually be built to 6550 spec, and cannot consistently handle the same plate voltages as NOS.


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## Edika (Mar 26, 2019)

I managed to snag an attenuator. I found an Audiostorm (UK brand) 120 8ohm for half price and went for it. Seems nicely built but the only drawback is that it has two settings practice and studio. The studio setting is supposedly giving you a quarter volume and the practice one tenth. With the practice setting I managed to get the Laney at about 5.5 volume where I can tolerate the sound. I mean instead of playing at 1 the same volume was about 2.5-3 so I'm not sure that's a tenth of the original volume. I did manage to tweak the sound a bit more and using the low input gave me a better, clearer sound. I still need to experiment but I think next tube swap I'm going with EL34's.

The Peavey was a similar situation. I did enjoy however the green channel set for distortion more than the red. The red needs more tweaking on higher volumes hmmmm.

So attenuator was a good call and I'll see if I can grab something down the line with more attenuation.

I'm also GASing for a Mesa Roadster and a Marshal JCM2000 DSL. I know that JCM800 is the holy grail for a lot of people but the Laney GL100 (and the VH100R which I have) are supposed to do that sound really well with EL34'S.


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## oneblackened (Mar 26, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> Supposedly bright sounding. *Like anything New Sensor*: may or may not actually be built to 6550 spec, and cannot consistently handle the same plate voltages as NOS.


 I feel like we're kind of fucked with new production power tubes. New Sensor plays fast and loose with spec, JJ is a total crapshoot in terms of reliability (they do sound damn good, though...), and Chinese tubes either pop spontaneously or just sound bad.


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## efiltsohg (Mar 27, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> I feel like we're kind of fucked with new production power tubes. New Sensor plays fast and loose with spec, JJ is a total crapshoot in terms of reliability (they do sound damn good, though...), and Chinese tubes either pop spontaneously or just sound bad.



With New Sensor some of their tubes are actually various Russian designs instead of what they sell them as, from what I remember. I'd have to look it up to confirm which ones, but for instance I think their 5881 is actually a 6P3S or something like that.

I have found JJ power tubes to be good and reliable (relatively speaking) other than EL34. There are no good EL34s since Winged C disappeared. I haven't tried some of the more esoteric tubes from them though.


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## Edika (Mar 27, 2019)

How about the JJEL34 II? They seem quite interesting and I'm thinking of getting those for my Laney.


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## oneblackened (Mar 27, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> With New Sensor some of their tubes are actually various Russian designs instead of what they sell them as, from what I remember. I'd have to look it up to confirm which ones, but for instance I think their 5881 is actually a 6P3S or something like that.


5881WXT = 6P3S-E
6L6WXT/6L6EH = 6P3S-EV
EL84M = 6P14P-EV (IIRC)
12AX7WA/B/C is a rewired 6N2P.


Edika said:


> How about the JJEL34 II? They seem quite interesting and I'm thinking of getting those for my Laney.


I have a quad. I like them a lot generally - a bit smoother than the E34L but a nice fat low end. They handle higher G2 voltages than they're rated for pretty well.


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## DudeManBrother (Mar 27, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> With New Sensor some of their tubes are actually various Russian designs instead of what they sell them as, from what I remember. I'd have to look it up to confirm which ones, but for instance I think their 5881 is actually a 6P3S or something like that.
> 
> I have found JJ power tubes to be good and reliable (relatively speaking) other than EL34. There are no good EL34s since Winged C disappeared. I haven't tried some of the more esoteric tubes from them though.


You’re right. New Sensor was able to purchase the name and logos of the tube brands, but not their construction techniques or materials. So you wind up with a lot of low tolerance tubes that bear no resemblance to the original tube that made the name respected. It’s like Steve Fryette selling the VHT logo and branding to China in a way.


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## Edika (Mar 27, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> 5881WXT = 6P3S-E
> 6L6WXT/6L6EH = 6P3S-EV
> EL84M = 6P14P-EV (IIRC)
> 12AX7WA/B/C is a rewired 6N2P.
> ...



Thank you for the input! The 6L6 are trying their best with the Laney but I feel the EL34's would suit them better. Being a bright amp it might benefit for the smoother sound.


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## oneblackened (Mar 27, 2019)

Edika said:


> Thank you for the input! The 6L6 are trying their best with the Laney but I feel the EL34's would suit them better. Being a bright amp it might benefit for the smoother sound.


Do make sure the screen resistors are the correct value and the heater supply can handle another 2.4A (1.5A per tube EL34s vs 0.9A 6L6s).


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Mar 27, 2019)

I've had great results with JJ and EHX for my KT88 amps  

I ran a sextet of JJ EL34s in a Triple Rectifier for a few years with no issues  that was 2010-2013, so maybe the JJ issues are much more recent? I've heard Dave Friedman talk a lot about how the JJ 34's are pretty bad now. I have a pair of =C= EL34s for my VHT 50/CL that are great, but I also really like the sound of a pair of EHX I put in there recently. So far so good as far as reliability, though I'm not touring or even cranking my amps very often. 

Speaking of my 50/CL, when I was rolling tubes in a few of my amps, I noticed the OT in it was around the same size as the OT in my Mark V, maybe even bigger  maybe it's over-engineered for being a 50w amp, but damn does it sound good


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## Edika (Mar 27, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> Do make sure the screen resistors are the correct value and the heater supply can handle another 2.4A (1.5A per tube EL34s vs 0.9A 6L6s).



The amp has a bias switch for 6L6 and EL34s so I'm guessing it should lol. These ship out with EL34s but the previous owner had 6L6s in and went with that when I retubed.


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## Sephiroth952 (Apr 2, 2019)

Big iron and bright tubes.


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## oneblackened (May 17, 2019)

On the topic of big iron, if I were to upgrade my Mesa's OT what would you guys recommend? I'd be looking for the 2k plate-plate area, maybe that Classictone "Project" transformer that's supposed to be in the ballpark of the SLO OT? 

Also, tube rectifiers are a lot more fun than I expected. They have this subtle mush playing rhythm parts that's super satisfying for modern rock.


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## oneblackened (Jun 7, 2019)

Got my hand on a 5150 II. I somehow forgot how enormous the iron in those things is. And what better way to make it better than to add even _more_ iron? Choke coming tomorrow.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jun 8, 2019)

Any of you dudes rocking an old 6x6L6 Peavey Mace?


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## Screamingdaisy (Jun 8, 2019)

Crappy picture, but I’m sure it gets the point across...


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## Cynicanal (Jun 8, 2019)

I have the strangest boner right now.


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## vick1000 (Jun 8, 2019)

I breifly owned a Mesa 2:100, rediculous 2U rack power, I had to return it, just too hot/loud/heavy for me.


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## oneblackened (Jun 8, 2019)

Screamingdaisy said:


> Crappy picture, but I’m sure it gets the point across...


Huh, what do you know. Mesa DID use JJ KT88s for a bit.

Also: Mercury choke showed up today. The choke next to it is a same inductance value choke from my JCA100HDM. Something tells me the Mercury can handle a great deal more current...


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## Screamingdaisy (Jun 8, 2019)

oneblackened said:


> Huh, what do you know. Mesa DID use JJ KT88s for a bit.



Chinese.

Never mind... on second look I think you’re right.


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## c7spheres (Jun 8, 2019)

Anyone ever play the Mesa/Baron amps? Those are really nice. My buddy powered his pa with one and it sounded great. Here's a link I found with some info about it. 
http://www.magnat.tv/mesa.shtml



An absolute must for apartment living!


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## oneblackened (Jun 8, 2019)

Screamingdaisy said:


> Chinese.
> 
> Never mind... on second look I think you’re right.


The bottle is the giveaway. JJ's bottle shape is very distinct.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Sep 1, 2020)

Old thread, but I wanted to share the mammoth tung sol kt88s in my Leslie cab.


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## budda (Sep 1, 2020)

Hell yeah you did.


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## sleewell (Sep 1, 2020)

my fuchs viper has 4 6550s and six or seven preamp tubes. pretty fuckin sexy. can i join the club??


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## SexHaver420 (Sep 1, 2020)

Helo

Also the GT 150 has the biggest transformers I have ever seen in an amp. They make the ones in the GTL seem small and those are the same size if not bigger than the ones in old Orange and Matamps. Big Iron good Small Iron bad.


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## budda (Sep 1, 2020)

sleewell said:


> my fuchs viper has 4 6550s and six or seven preamp tubes. pretty fuckin sexy. can i join the club??



Did they also give it huge transformers? Either way, you're grandfathered in with the four 6550's


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## Blasphemer (Sep 2, 2020)

Moved into my new place this week. Set up the Tinnitus Tower in the studio.




Putting in a speaker cable run to the basement where all the cabinets live in a few days:


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## LiveOVErdrive (Sep 3, 2020)

Blasphemer said:


> Moved into my new place this week. Set up the Tinnitus Tower in the studio.
> 
> View attachment 84534
> 
> ...


That's sweet. So will you play exclusively through mic monitoring?


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## Blasphemer (Sep 3, 2020)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> That's sweet. So will you play exclusively through mic monitoring?



Not 100% sure, yet. The main goal is to track both my musical endeavors and friends bands for reasonable prices, but for the purposes of demoing and practicing, I'll probably use the amps through the Torpedo Captor or just use my Helix.


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## cardinal (Sep 3, 2020)

Mesa M180, monoblock 180-watt power amp. Sound is super deeeeeep.


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