# The story of my little misunderstanding with engage757...



## MailMan (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey everyone. I'm still quite new here, with only a few posts, but I must say that from what I saw of the site, there's a great community here, something which is unfortunately rare nowadays. I'm interested in your opinion about a bit of an awkward situation that happened/is still happening to me in connection with engage757, whom I guess most of you know better than I do.

I stumbled into this site back in December when I was looking to buy my first 7-string. I found a thread by engage that had an Ibanez which looked just perfect, so I contacted him - he seemed like a cool guy, and we concluded the deal pretty quickly. I sent him all the money in advance, including a hefty shipping cost, but he promised that if there's anything left over, he'll send it back, so I was like OK, there's an ocean between us, who knows how much they charge for it?

The first few times when I asked him later about the shipping cost after he sent the guitar, he came up with an excuse for why he couldn't tell yet. After that, he evaded answering this particular question at all. It all started to seem a little eerie after a while, so I asked him to be honest with me. He then wrote me a mail in which he said how I shouldn't question his honesty, how he went way beyond by disassembling the guitar and sending it as a gift (for which I thanked him properly earlier), he was just about to move, and so on. I thought maybe I was impatient and a bit harsh, so I apologized. He didn't reply.

The guitar arrived (it is a fine axe BTW, it was packed carefully, and didn't have a scratch on it - I love it), and I saw the papers that came with it. As it turned out, the shipping cost was less than what I sent. I waited for a while, but got no word from engage. Later I sent him two further mails (not even mentioning this whole money business in the first one), and I waited again. Didn't receive an answer. Over a week ago, I sent him a polite PM here, still not mentioning the shipping thing, just trying to contact him. More than a month had passed since my last mail. By this point, I wasn't surprised when I got no answer.

I did not want to make this public, but I was out of options, so I sent him a negative iTrader feedback, thinking maybe that would make him at least _answer me_. The only thing I got was a negative comment on my feedback about how I harassed(!) and threatened (wtf?) him over shipping costs I allegedly already agreed to (I didn't, but I guess that's obvious from what I wrote so far).

So I opened this thread. I guess engage himself will pop by, telling his version of the story, which is fine by me. I can prove my point through screenshots and photos if needed. I personally don't want any beef with him, I just wish to resolve this situation peacefully.

Please share your thoughts if you'd like to.


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## Swyse (Mar 25, 2013)

How much was the difference? Keep in mind shipping costs can also include packing materials, boxes, and possibly having it professionally packed.


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## Danukenator (Mar 25, 2013)

Are we talking 10$ or a lot of money?


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## mphsc (Mar 25, 2013)

I always get screwed shipping Internationally, meaning I always have to pay more than I estimated, so good for him over estimating. If it's less than $50 let it go man. Packing materials cost me anywhere from $30-70 depending on the guitar & location. Last guitar I shipped cost more than I charged, paid it anyway & let the buyer know after the fact. He was cool enough to make up the difference. Hope it all works out or you're not picking a fight over a few bucks.


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## MFB (Mar 25, 2013)

IIRC, he's perma-banned (for how long we don't know) so you might have to contact him via e-mail or do a Paypal dispute if the window is open and you didnt pay via gift


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## flexkill (Mar 25, 2013)

If you feel the situation has gotten so far outta hand that you needed to make a public thread about it.....then you must post the amount of money that you feel you are owed. How else can anyone else understand the magnitude of your problem?


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## MailMan (Mar 25, 2013)

It's not _that_ much money (65 bucks), so this might sound ridiculous to you guys in the US, but it's just enough to make a difference in this piss-poor Eastern European country, where the average wage is about 600$.

To Swyse: he never mentioned any packing material costs. He'd promised he'd refund what was left.

It's not just about the money anyway. He could at least have told me to wave goodbye to my money and never write again or something... I just hope he doesn't do this to other people.


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## pink freud (Mar 25, 2013)

MFB said:


> IIRC, he's perma-banned (for how long we don't know)



Well, I'd guess fairly permalong.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 25, 2013)

Let me see if I understand... You gave him negative reputation over shipping costs _after_ you received a guitar in perfect condition that you love and _after_ he broke the law to send this as a gift so that you didn't have to pay additional taxes on your end. Add to the fact that he had to pick up (or buy materials) to pack it all up and go through the pain in butt of sending things via international post.

I think you are a jerk-off. But that is just my opinion...


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## MFB (Mar 25, 2013)

pink freud said:


> Well, I'd guess fairly permalong.



He's been perma-banned before and Alex has let him back so that's why I say that. More like a "perma"-ban


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## angus (Mar 25, 2013)

I always get hosed on international shipping, so I'm always surprised someone comes in under budget.

Materials for that could eat up a significant portion of that budget, such that the difference may not be nearly as large as it seems. That would be an important factor to understand. I doubt this was a ploy to screw you out of money- particularly when he broke a law to save you taxes. 

I'd say count your blessings.


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## eleven59 (Mar 25, 2013)

ArtDecade said:


> Let me see if I understand... You gave him negative reputation over shipping costs _after_ you received a guitar in perfect condition that you love and _after_ he broke the law to send this as a gift so that you didn't have to pay additional taxes on your end. Add to the fact that he had to pick up (or buy materials) to pack it all up and go through the pain in butt of sending things via international post.
> 
> I think you are a jerk-off. But that is just my opinion...



I wouldn't recommend defending engage on this one. They had an agreement about shipping, engage has gone back on that and stopped replying to messages. Therefore, the negative feedback was deserved. Overall feedback rating is about more than the quality of the guitar you receive, its' about the overall satisfaction with the transaction and dealings with the seller/buyer. 

I say sue engage so he can't move.


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## MailMan (Mar 25, 2013)

ArtDecade said:


> Let me see if I understand... You gave him negative reputation over shipping costs _after_ you received a guitar in perfect condition that you love and _after_ he broke the law to send this as a gift so that you didn't have to pay additional taxes on your end. Add to the fact that he had to pick up (or buy materials) to pack it all up and go through the pain in butt of sending things via international post.
> 
> I think you are a jerk-off. But that is just my opinion...



I asked you all to share your opinion, so fair enough.

But I only gave him a negative reputation _after_ he promised to refund me whatever was over the actual shipping cost, and _after_ I tried to contact him numerous times in private. It's pretty common to send stuff as gifts as far as I know, and I never heard of anyone getting caught. I still paid some customs + VAT (27%).



angus said:


> I always get hosed on international shipping, so I'm always surprised someone comes in under budget.
> 
> Materials for that could eat up a significant portion of that budget, such that the difference may not be nearly as large as it seems. That would be an important factor to understand. I doubt this was a ploy to screw you out of money- particularly when he broke a law to save you taxes.
> 
> I'd say count your blessings.



I perfectly understand your point, but then _why didn't he just say so?_


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## broj15 (Mar 25, 2013)

Thats how it goes man. I've been "burned" on here a few times (not mentioning names or anything). Just dumb shit like me saying "ok, I'll ship it with a tracking number and insurance in the full amount", however I guess even though you can track something and know that it's insured people still don't know how to use paypal's "gift" option. It would be one thing if they paid for shipping but it's an entirely different animal when I'm footing the bill (that means i spent the extra money to make sure it gets to you in one piece and you just screwed me out of even more money). 

Basically, it happens man. That's the way of the road and once the deals done their isn't much you can do except learn from the experience.


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## mcd (Mar 25, 2013)

until we see emails and the like stated that a deal was 1. made and 2. understood by all parties. Then this is just he said he said.


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## angus (Mar 25, 2013)

MailMan said:


> I perfectly understand your point, but then _why didn't he just say so?_



Also a fair enough point- that I agree with- but you can't approach this problem the way you did and then state that you did it so that things would end "peacefully", as that clearly is not the end result either. 

Not knowing either of you really at all (despite have a couple PM exchanges with Engage that were very nice and friendly in the past), I'd say that if he responded as defensively as he did, and given your tone in this initial post, I would venture to guess that you were a bit aggressive in your approach. Whether that be initially or eventually, it is a method that really doesn't get the best out of people. I'm not saying the situation is your fault by any means, but perhaps suggesting that there are some things you can take away from the exchange that may help in the future. 

Additionally, it is worth considering the other side, as was mentioned- there may be additional costs to take into account (packing/shipping materials and/or labor, which are not accounted for in the cost you would've seen, and can be substantial), plus he did take extra steps that could've initiated legal liability on his side that was done _for your benefit_. Thus, perhaps a more reasonable, objective approach should be considered before hearing the full story- which I agree, you deserve, if you haven't received. Fair enough.

Cosmically speaking: I get shafted on every international shipment I ever make when I sell guitars, pickups, whatever- it is never as cheap as people want, nor never as cheap as people tell me they've paid previously, and I still make attempts to accomodate it because I'm excessively nice. Sometimes it is much more expensive (and this happens with in-country guitar shipments, as with BOTH guitars I recently shipped), and I often eat the difference because it makes the buyer happy. They often don't even know. Thus, returning to the function of the cosmos, as an international buyer, for every time that you overpay shipping once, you've probably underpaid a couple times. This does NOT excuse shipping inflation (like you see on eBay) or similar practices, but something to keep in mind when you can step away from the situation a bit. Doesn't make the one instance feel better, but is a healthy reminder that these things have some give and take. 

Just trying to be objective about the presented circumstances- not taking sides in any way.


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## SpaceDock (Mar 25, 2013)

I feel like there have been many, won't name them, that come here just to sling guitars. You have to be careful with people that set up monthly threads with ten guitars just to sell/trade like that. They are wheelin dealin and looking for cash anywhere they can.


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## mcd (Mar 25, 2013)

SpaceDock said:


> I feel like there have been many, won't name them, that come here just to sling guitars. You have to be careful with people that set up monthly threads with ten guitars just to sell/trade like that. They are wheelin dealin and looking for cash anywhere they can.



this road is two ways...I've had some deals with a few wheel and deal trades/buys go through with out a hitch. Nothing wrong with a guy trying to make some extra scratch, as long as its on the up and up.

I feel this thread would benefit from copies of the emails, seeing as how engage isn't here (yet) to give his side of the story. To me the whole thing looks like there is an easy middle ground that could possibly be met. 

We shouldn't be quick to rush to a judgement, remember there is always 3 parts to the story. Your side, their side, and the right side.


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## Yo_Wattup (Mar 25, 2013)

In the business world, a promise is about the most meaningless thing one could say.


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## flexkill (Mar 25, 2013)

SpaceDock said:


> You have to be careful with people that set up monthly threads with ten guitars just to sell/trade like that. They are wheelin dealin and looking for cash anywhere they can.


This is good advice. 


EDIT: It also looks as if a couple have been Perma Banned recently. This is pure speculation on my part....but it feels as if these types of members are being weeded out....not just here but other forums as well.


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## engage757 (Mar 25, 2013)

eleven59 said:


> I wouldn't recommend defending engage on this one. They had an agreement about shipping, engage has gone back on that and stopped replying to messages. Therefore, the negative feedback was deserved. Overall feedback rating is about more than the quality of the guitar you receive, its' about the overall satisfaction with the transaction and dealings with the seller/buyer.
> 
> I say sue engage so he can't move.



And I would say you don't know shit about anything. You have no idea anything about the situation, the constant bitching, the emails calling me a liar about where I live even. I went out of my way, broke the law, took time out of my EXTREMELY hectic schedule to disassemble a guitar, have to go buy packing material, not use my typical packing store, be dishonest on customs forms, to lose money on a brand new guitar with a pickup upgrade. To help this guy out.

Someone with ZERO REPUTATION on this site or the Internet, and this happened MONTHS ago.

You know nothing of the situation, except someone's biased thoughts on how I didn't do enough. 

For the record, I am done here, bitch all you want. I'm not even viewing this thread again. Not once. This person is absurd and I refuse further communication to all 300 emails of his absurdities. 

This is someone that can lay into me about my credibility, where I live, where I currently am, what I do for a living with no repercussion. 


I tell you the truth, I am done with this situation. Tell you what, how about I try to dig months back for all the costs of my time, shipping costs, packing and material costs etc? No, sorry, I don't have shit from months ago.

Say what you want, but as far as I am concerned, as well as the members I am currently doing deals with both foreign and domestic, I tell you the truth, your little crusade is doing you no help at all. Our deal was over months ago. You have been reported to the mods and administration staff, and I am done.

Our deal is over, I am not going to itemize a list of shipping costs for you, you were aware of the costs, I told you, as well as the other guy at the same time in your country I sent a guitar to on the SAME DAY. He isn't bitching, and neither should you.

Again, never viewing this thread again. If you want to question my credibility with literally hundreds of feedback and people from all over forum sites vouching for me against this person that none of us know anything about, then take it up with them. Hundreds of people with plenty of credibility will vouch for me.

Enjoy your crusade and your thread(your first one), heck, by the end of it I am sure you will even have a few more people with no actual knowledge of the situation making you feel justified, but you arent. And for the love of god stop stalking me across the Internet. I even had to report you to yahoo.

But consider this me learning my lesson, so thanks. I will never again bend over backwards, lose money on a deal and waste tons of my time to ship to a random Internet troll. Only established forum members from now on, no more bullshit. So thanks for that.


Goodbye.

P.s. I am not and have not ever been perma banned. By the way.


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## MailMan (Mar 25, 2013)

angus said:


> Also a fair enough point- that I agree with- but you can't approach this problem the way you did and then state that you did it so that things would end "peacefully", as that clearly is not the end result either.
> 
> Not knowing either of you really at all (despite have a couple PM exchanges with Engage that were very nice and friendly in the past), I'd say that if he responded as defensively as he did, and given your tone in this initial post, I would venture to guess that you were a bit aggressive in your approach. Whether that be initially or eventually, it is a method that really doesn't get the best out of people. I'm not saying the situation is your fault by any means, but perhaps suggesting that there are some things you can take away from the exchange that may help in the future.
> 
> ...


I realized some time ago that I might have been a bit agressive, but I apologized to him quite sincerely, and tried to be polite and patient ever since. I was grateful (still am) for what he done with the packaging and gifting. I also knew that engage has a life, too, that he must attend to, and I must have been quite low among his priorities - but after a while I kind of felt I was deliberately ignored.

I don't think you're taking sides - I actually really appreciate what you're saying, because I'm not really well-versed in international trade. This was the first customs-bound thing ever that I ordered from the US (only CDs and shirts before this). When - or if - I do it again, I'll try to take into account what you just worte.


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## flexkill (Mar 25, 2013)

engage757 said:


> And I would say you don't know shit about anything. You have no idea anything about the situation, the constant bitching, the emails calling me a liar about where I live even. I went out of my way, broke the law, took time out of my EXTREMELY hectic schedule to disassemble a guitar, have to go buy packing material, not use my typical packing store, be dishonest on customs forms, to lose money on a brand new guitar with a pickup upgrade. To help this guy out.
> 
> Someone with ZERO REPUTATION on this site or the Internet, and this happened MONTHS ago.
> 
> ...


 Welcome back....more lives than a cat I tell ya....


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## ihunda (Mar 25, 2013)

Man, with engage and AdamofAngels perma-banned, who am I going to get my guitar fix from????


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## flexkill (Mar 25, 2013)

ihunda said:


> Man, with engage and AdamofAngels perma-banned, who am I going to get my guitar fix from????


I know right  I literally recieved a package from Adam today and was getting on SSO to confirm all was well when I clicked on his name and BAM.....Perma Banned ...I was like WTF???


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## MailMan (Mar 25, 2013)

Seeing engage's attitude, I'm asking you guys, is there still someting to gain in proving my point? I'm not that sure. He certainly doesn't look like someone who's open for dialogue...


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## Yo_Wattup (Mar 25, 2013)

Stealthdjentstic or whatever his name was got P-B& aswell


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## flexkill (Mar 25, 2013)

MailMan said:


> Seeing engage's attitude, I'm asking you guys, is there still someting to gain in proving my point? I'm not that sure. He certainly doesn't look like someone who's open for dialogue...


Man people don't really know you around here yet, and I have heard mostly good things about Engages transactions....there have been these dust ups between him and some members in the past.....so basically....who fucking knows...$65 is not much cash for all he did...but if he gave his word than he should have honored it.


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## MFB (Mar 25, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Stealthdjentstic or whatever his name was got P-B& aswell



For now, but if I know him he'll weasel himself back in in no time


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## splinter8451 (Mar 25, 2013)

I really don't see any reason for this thread to remain open anymore. 

The important thing has already been said: Engage went above and beyond to get you (a completely new member of the forum) a guitar that you ended up loving, and you're starting a shit slinging thread over 65 bucks that you overpaid in shipping? 

Half of that 65 probably went to purchasing the box to ship in... then 8 dollars in packing materials ... then you have what 10 dollars left? 

These threads are only justified if you never received the guitar or it arrived damaged and the seller isn't owning up to it. 

That is just how I see it.


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## mcd (Mar 25, 2013)

^second


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## ArtDecade (Mar 25, 2013)

To the guy going around neg repping everyone in this thread, I've already notified the mods. Stop being a tool.


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## MFB (Mar 25, 2013)

splinter8451 said:


> Half of that 65 probably went to purchasing the box to ship in... then 8 dollars in packing materials ... then you have what 10 dollars left?



If you're paying ~$30 for A BOX then you're a fool. Half the time you can take a trip to any big store and find a box with similar dimensions or even take a look at a nearby music store and find one that they're just going to throw out. Hell, I've started keeping the boxes my guitars come in just in case I end up not liking them down the road. They don't take up that much space in the basement/attic.

And a roll of bubble wrap is like five bucks so packing materials dont cost anywher around $40 unless you're skimping it last minute and buy from the UPS store


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## Jason (Mar 25, 2013)

splinter8451 said:


> I really don't see any reason for this thread to remain open anymore.
> 
> The important thing has already been said: Engage went above and beyond to get you (a completely new member of the forum) a guitar that you ended up loving, and you're starting a shit slinging thread over 65 bucks that you overpaid in shipping?
> 
> ...



 $30 for a guitar box? Really? How about just pop into the local Gc/Music shop and get one for free. 

Actually Zach should have a stockpile of boxes with the amount of guitars he buys.


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## MailMan (Mar 25, 2013)

splinter8451 said:


> The important thing has already been said: Engage went above and beyond to get you (a completely new member of the forum) a guitar that you ended up loving, and you're starting a shit slinging thread over 65 bucks that you overpaid in shipping?



I already said that 65 bucks is worth a lot more here. Consider that Eastern European greediness or whatever you want. I don't agree with a lot of things engage wrote in his post (Especially calling me a random troll, which I'm not; and the "300 emails", which was more like what, 10-15; and saying that I was "aware of the costs". I'd rather not get started...), but I see no point in challenging his every word if he's not cooperative on this.



flexkill said:


> Man people don't really know you around here yet, and I have heard mostly good things about Engages transactions....there have been these dust ups between him and some members in the past.....so basically....who fucking knows...$65 is not much cash for all he did...but if he gave his word than he should have honored it.



I agree. I'm the new guy making noise, nobody knows where I'm coming from... He should've honored his word, but man, it's his decision, so be it. My mental health is worth more than this, and I'm letting it go. Even more, I'm grateful to engage, because the guitar itself is great - too bad he won't be reading this. I guess we'll avoid each other in the future...

I'm just sorry you guys got to know me through this. I hope we'll get along in other threads, because what I wrote in the opening post about the community here was not just BS. Now, gentleman, I take my leave, because it's past 1 AM over here...


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## Watty (Mar 25, 2013)

Jason said:


> $30 for a guitar box? Really? How about just pop into the local Gc/Music shop and get one for free.



UPS has guitar shipping boxes for $17.86 or something; big enough for anything you'd need...let alone the free option mentioned here.


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## TRENCHLORD (Mar 25, 2013)

SpaceDock said:


> I feel like there have been many, won't name them, that come here just to sling guitars. You have to be careful with people that set up monthly threads with ten guitars just to sell/trade like that. They are wheelin dealin and looking for cash anywhere they can.


 


This is true, but doesn't always mean there's any dishonesty intended.
If ten guitars are sent out in excellent to perfect condition to ten different people, then at least one or two people will likely claim (and truely believe) that the guitar they got is a piece of shit .

^ there's really no point to that, I';m just bored ATM.

and as for stealth; His frequent bans are just a cover for when he must go underground in his work for the KGB.


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## Heroin (Mar 25, 2013)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Stealthdjentstic or whatever his name was got P-B& aswell



He's always perma'd lol. It goes together like fat kids and ice-cream.


edit: sorry for the derail


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 26, 2013)

This should have been kept private regardless, no offense to the OP of course. But Engage is right in the sense that we don't have any accurate emails or information provided to understand what happened fully.

However I don't think Engage should have posted so defensively, especially if he didn't do anything wrong. As of what we've seen, you've presented yourself decently and politely even after his post. 

And the guys are right, not making due on your word is extremely shitty. But I would just count this off as a lesson learned since it does seem he even went as far as to break the law to get it to you at a lesser cost. Dude should have been a little more communicative for sure, it's the thing I value the most on this site. And when dudes stop replying when a problem happens it just makes me think they're scamming someone when it takes little to no time to write a quick response. Even in a busy schedule, that's quite easy to pencil in.

Either way, no comment on who's right or wrong, for obvious reasons. Just keep it between you two from here on out.


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## poopyalligator (Mar 26, 2013)

You guys can say what you want and defend his actions (which i agree was him going far beyond what most of us would be willing to do), but I also believe that he should hold up his end of the agreement as well. Granted when you are talking expensive instruments 65 isn't exactly a lot of money, but that isn't the point. Sticking to your word is more important, and if he really wanted just to end that whole bullshit he could of just sent him his 65 dollars back, and not take the hit to his reputation. No matter how good your rep is, a bad mark looks terrible. That is just my opinion though.


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## ElRay (Mar 26, 2013)

Zack,

You've been caught in lies here and on other forums. You've admitted to marking-up items with unrealistic BIN's on Ebay, knowing they won't sell, just to get solicitations outside of Ebay. I wouldn't trust you if were dripping wet and told me it was raining outside.

Regarding your "stellar" feedback, the original snake-oil salesmen had plenty of happy customers, but that's no where near equivalent to saying there was never any dishonesty involved in the sale. Also, your buddy Mehtab/Stealth got caught abusing the rep system to wipe away all of the visible negative feedback from your profile. That got him his fourth, or so, (supposedly) perm-ban.

And, speaking of perm-bans, you're lying again. I know you were perma-banned at one of the other forums we both have (well, had in your case) logins for. There are mods that have stated you've been perm-baned, but sweet-talked your way out of it/them. At any rate, the simple fact that you've been banned, means that you've been banned infinitely more than I have. In fact, you recently got a two-day and then received another two-day within hours of your return. 

Finally, this is coming from somebody who's been on this forum longer than you, so you can't play the "bully the newbie" game. 

Ray


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## Hollowway (Mar 26, 2013)

I personally don't get too wrapped up in these sort of situations. My guess is that this is probably a misunderstanding from what the OP considered a refund of the shipping costs vs engage. This is why legal documents are so damn long. Heck, just in the last 6 months I've had two sales where I was told the guitar was mine, and then someone else comes in and offers more money and they reneg the deal. It's just part of the territory of buying and selling that you'll end up with some disagreements. 

OP, I wouldn't sweat this whole thing. Sounds like overall you saved money on the thing, so just chalk this up to a misunderstanding. And brace yourself, because honestly, compared to some of us on here that have literally paid thousands for guitars that we never received, $65 is not much for a misunderstanding.


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## Hollowway (Mar 26, 2013)

ElRay said:


> Zack,
> 
> You've been caught in lies here and on other forums. You've admitted to marking-up items with unrealistic BIN's on Ebay, knowing they won't sell, just to get solicitations outside of Ebay. I wouldn't trust you if were dripping wet and told me it was raining outside.
> 
> ...



Dude, take your personal grievances and conspiracy accusations to PM. There's no need to start a cat fight in the middle of a regular thread because you don't like someone or think they're lying.


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## Hollowway (Mar 26, 2013)

poopyalligator said:


> You guys can say what you want and defend his actions (which i agree was him going far beyond what most of us would be willing to do), but I also believe that he should hold up his end of the agreement as well. Granted when you are talking expensive instruments 65 isn't exactly a lot of money, but that isn't the point. Sticking to your word is more important, and if he really wanted just to end that whole bullshit he could of just sent him his 65 dollars back, and not take the hit to his reputation. No matter how good your rep is, a bad mark looks terrible. That is just my opinion though.



Unless we actually saw the email we don't know that what the OP and engage both understood the agreement in the same way. And while I can see your point about giving up the money to prevent hits to a reputation, that's also the textbook definition of extortion. That's a slippery slope. Tough call on that one, that's for sure.

(Sorry guys. Should have used the multi quote tool.)


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## MFB (Mar 26, 2013)

Hollowway said:


> Dude, take your personal grievances and conspiracy accusations to PM. There's no need to start a cat fight in the middle of a regular thread because you don't like someone or think they're lying.



Except everything he posted is a reason as to why stuff like these threads shouldn't exist because no Engage would have meant no sale and therefore no issues to create this thread. He's not bashing Engage because he personally has had any issues with him, hell Ray is barrly even outside the Theory subforum; he's posting it because we've gotten rid of scammers and flippers in the past that were a risk to the community and instead, now it doesn't matter anymore because people will get let back in despite the name of a ban bring called "permanent" and then have their slate wiped clean by friends. If this were Wayward or any of the past members would you have felt the same way? Just because he posts nice FS ads doesn't mean we should hold him to higher standards.


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## Erazoender (Mar 26, 2013)

ElRay said:


> Zack,
> 
> You've been caught in lies here and on other forums. You've admitted to marking-up items with unrealistic BIN's on Ebay, knowing they won't sell, just to get solicitations outside of Ebay. I wouldn't trust you if were dripping wet and told me it was raining outside.
> 
> ...



Stealth didn't rep people for personal gains; he gave it out to loads of people...like SchecterWhore, Church, etc..


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## MFB (Mar 26, 2013)

In the recent case though, he DID exclusively thank some of Engage's threads just to remove any negative marks - which is the reason why he was banned (again) and it's posted in the Public Ban List _by the mods_ if you dont believe it


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## Hollowway (Mar 26, 2013)

MFB said:


> Except everything he posted is a reason as to why stuff like these threads shouldn't exist because no Engage would have meant no sale and therefore no issues to create this thread. He's not bashing Engage because he personally has had any issues with him, hell Ray is barrly even outside the Theory subforum; he's posting it because we've gotten rid of scammers and flippers in the past that were a risk to the community and instead, now it doesn't matter anymore because people will get let back in despite the name of a ban bring called "permanent" and then have their slate wiped clean by friends. If this were Wayward or any of the past members would you have felt the same way? Just because he posts nice FS ads doesn't mean we should hold him to higher standards.



Yeah, it just sounded very personal and unproductive. I don't know any of that background, but that's the kind of post that gets the mods wanting to ban people for fighting back and forth on the forums. Point taken, though.


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## ElRay (Mar 26, 2013)

Erazoender said:


> Stealth didn't rep people for personal gains; he gave it out to loads of people...like SchecterWhore, Church, etc..



Not quite. Mehtab/Stealth's painfully obvious goal was to rid Engage of all of his visible -rep. In order to do so, he had to spread rep around before giving more to Engage. 20+ +rep to Engage and just enough to others so Mehtab/Stealth could keep going. 

From the "Public Ban List" Thread:


technomancer said:


> Stealthdjentstic goes for good (again), this time for rep system abuse that screwed up the mods investigating other issues



And that wasn't the first time Mehtab/Stealth played the manipulating rep game. PM me if you want details or want to know way Mehtab/Stealth would want his and Engage's rep to look spotless.

Ray


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## ZEBOV (Mar 26, 2013)

ElRay said:


> Not quite. Mehtab/Stealth's painfully obvious goal was to rid Engage of all of his visible -rep. In order to do so, he had to spread rep around before giving more to Engage. 20+ +rep to Engage and just enough to others so Mehtab/Stealth could keep going.
> 
> From the "Public Ban List" Thread:
> 
> ...



Mehtab has pos-rep bombed dozens of people before talking to Engage much.


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## flexkill (Mar 26, 2013)

ElRay said:


> Not quite. Mehtab/Stealth's painfully obvious goal was to rid Engage of all of his visible -rep. In order to do so, he had to spread rep around before giving more to Engage. 20+ +rep to Engage and just enough to others so Mehtab/Stealth could keep going.
> 
> From the "Public Ban List" Thread:
> 
> ...


If this crap is true....why are these people allowed back here over and over again???? These people should not be allowed to feed off of a trusting community!

I mean, if this whole rep abuse thing to cover tracks shit is true....that pretty much shows their true colors as far as I'm concerned.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Mar 26, 2013)

Edit: Every body fucks up every now and then, the biggest of all retailers will make mistakes. But as long as you contact them they will almost always fix the problem. Now I can't say for sure what really happened between you and Engage because the emails were between the two of you, but if what he says is true I definitely don't think he's in the wrong. Even if you're right, you're still probably only out 45-50 bucks and that is not a big deal in my eyes.  
I can see why Stealth would try to fix Engage's rep, I mean if I got neg repped for something that really didn't happen I wouldn't want that hanging around for people to see. 
It just seems like putting white out over a spelling error.


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## MassNecrophagia (Mar 26, 2013)

Also, it's been stated several times that anyone outside of the parties concerned has no access to their interaction via e-mail.
OP has been civil, engage has not.


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## mcd (Mar 26, 2013)

holy shit this post is still up?


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## eleven59 (Mar 26, 2013)

Poking the bear was fun. 

Engage, if you ever happen to read this thread (I assume you still are, you're too petty to not need to know what we're saying), anything you say to or about me doesn't matter in the slightest, as I have zero respect for you. Had this been the only time I'd heard complaints about you, I'd have probably seen your side of things. Your reputation goes beyond numbers on some websites. People know what you do, and we don't forget, no matter how hard you work to keep your online image falsely clean.


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## broj15 (Mar 26, 2013)

Please don't lock this shit up. Things haven't been this "wild west" around here in a while.


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## Yo_Wattup (Mar 26, 2013)

broj15 said:


>



dis already guuuuud



MassNecrophagia said:


>


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## broj15 (Mar 26, 2013)

it's like i'm patiently sitting in front of my computer waiting for something exciting to happen.. like porn in the days of dial up.


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## technomancer (Mar 26, 2013)

*Ok I think this has gone on long enough and isn't going to accomplish anything. A couple things for the record:

1) engage has not been perma'd here, ever... however he has been banned five times for a number of things, including violations of not selling outside the classifieds and stuff like that. This is also the third "deal with issues" he's been involved in that's come up publicly. So the next time he steps out of line he will be gone permanently. We've already let him go beyond the usual three bans and you're perma'd rule so we don't think that's unreasonable.
2) the allegation was made that somebody was following engage around giving him neg rep. When the mods tried to investigate we couldn't find anything as the system only stores the past X reps given, and Stealth had gone in on 3/18 and completely filled engage's record with positive rep. Rep bombing, whether positive or negative, is an abuse of the rep system, and will earn you a ban. In this case it also screwed up the mods ability to do their jobs. Given Stealth had been banned about 100 times before this, he got a perma for it.
3) Since I'm sure I'll get a raging PM after this claiming engage never had any dealings with issues and I'm making stuff up or am out to get him, I'll list them:
- this thread
- the J-Custom JCRG Gold II that he got off of ebay, marked up by a substantial amount, and tried to sell without disclosing issues it had that were described in the auction (so he was definitely aware of them), then decided not to sell once other members called him on it
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gu...t-ibanez-j-custom-gold-ii-very-rare-jcrg.html
- the trade gone bad deal that was eventually resolved to everyone's satisfaction after it was made public http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/217026-need-advice-bad-deal-forum-member.html*


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