# Game of Thrones



## flexkill

New season starts now....go fucking watch it!


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## wankerness

The first episode was cool cause they didn't make any attempt to have a big flashy opener, they just directly continued the story from last season in the exact same vein. Hardcore. I was relieved to see that Daenerys looks like her plotline will be really great as opposed to more "MY DRAGONSSssss" like last season. Cersei and Joffrey are such hilarious assholes and I loved how Joffrey's new girl (whatshername Renley) was playing them off each other in that dinner scene. Jon Snow seeing the giant and dealing with the wildling king was awesome and as lame as I've thought Jon Snow has been in previous seasons, I'm really excited to see more of this. The only character I sorta felt didn't have very good scenes compared to normal was Tyrrion, but what can you do, he's in a bad spot right now. We didn't see Arya or the younger Stark kids or Jamie/Brienne at all, which is too bad, but at the same time I'm glad they didn't try to cram everything in just cause it's the first ep.

It was an average ep by GOT standards, which is to say it was at least 300x better than the walking dead finale.


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## wilch

100% agree with it being better than The Walking Dead finale.


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## MailMan

wankerness said:


> Joffrey's new girl (whatshername Renley)


You mean Margaery Tyrell?  But I agree with you on that, she was pretty cool, and I also enjoyed the rest of the episode. Hoping to see more of Arya and Jaime.


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## Xaios

MailMan said:


> You mean Margaery Tyrell?  But I agree with you on that, she was pretty cool, and I also enjoyed the rest of the episode. Hoping to see more of Arya and Jaime.



The 35~ second preview on Youtube for episode 2 features both Arya and Jaime/Brienne.

It's hard to be sure if it will be in this episode, but anyone who's read the books knows that there is a SERIOUSLY pivotal moment for Jaime on the horizon. If they don't have it in episode 2, then it will certainly be in episode 3.

I hope that doesn't give too much away. Just know that, if you thought that not a lot really happened in the opener, BIG things are on the horizon.


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## wankerness

MailMan said:


> You mean Margaery Tyrell?  But I agree with you on that, she was pretty cool, and I also enjoyed the rest of the episode. Hoping to see more of Arya and Jaime.



Yes, I don't have all the names down very well cause I only just started reading the books.


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## Origin

I'm just starting the fourth book, haven't watched any of the series yet. But gonna have to agree with Xaios here, prepare yourselves. Shit's gonna get real urrywhere.


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## sakeido

Was kind of a bad start imo... didn't really seem to match up with the book at all, but it's been awhile since I read book 3 and anyway what happens later totally overshadows what is at the start. But still didn't hit quite the right note for me, for some reason


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## Xaios

sakeido said:


> Was kind of a bad start imo... didn't really seem to match up with the book at all, but it's been awhile since I read book 3 and anyway what happens later totally overshadows what is at the start. But still didn't hit quite the right note for me, for some reason



Yeah, but you don't like anything. 

It's true, they abeyanced some stuff from the second book, such as...



Spoiler



Barristan Selmy (along with Strong Belwas) originally meets them in Qarth, not Astapor, and he'd been sent by Illyrio (who didn't actually know who he was).

Also, Jojen and Meera Reed arrive well before the end of the second book in Winterfell, where as they haven't even shown up yet in the show.


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## Hipster Holocaust

I wasn't even aware GoT was a book series. Can somebody give me an explanation about the people that are able change their faces thing, without spoilers? They only touched on it, but it's super badass.


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## wankerness

I dunno what you want them to say that wouldnt' be spoilers, "there are faceless men, they can change their face, they live on the eastern continent and we'll see more of them" about covers it I think.


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## wankerness

sakeido said:


> Was kind of a bad start imo... didn't really seem to match up with the book at all, but it's been awhile since I read book 3 and anyway what happens later totally overshadows what is at the start. But still didn't hit quite the right note for me, for some reason



They're splitting the third book into two seasons 

Book experts have suggested that they may then combine books 4/5 into the next season though cause apparently they take place at the same time? I know pretty much nothing about anything past season 2 except some horrible spoilers about character deaths that I wish I'd never seen.


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## Xaios

wankerness said:


> They're splitting the third book into two seasons
> 
> Book experts have suggested that they may then combine books 4/5 into the next season though cause apparently they take place at the same time? I know pretty much nothing about anything past season 2 except some horrible spoilers about character deaths that I wish I'd never seen.



There's no way they'd be able to fit two books into one season, even though they happen concurrently. There's simply too much happening (even though it's not *action packed* like A Storm of Swords). 2 seasons is probably doable, as books 4/5 are a lot more "talkie" than the previous ones.


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## wankerness

I figured as much. How are the books structured if they happen concurrently? Does he just not jump between all the characters like he does in the earlier books, and stick to half of them or something?


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## Watty

They start to segment a bit more as the characters "branch out" and begin to refine themselves as the story progresses and there's more interplay between the stories as well.


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## TemjinStrife

Book 3 would HAVE to be two seasons. Hell, they could stretch it out and make it 3. SOO much happens in the third book.

Also, the stuff they did with Daenerys and the dragons (the whole warlock bit) in the second season was ridiculously lame compared to how it was in the books.


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## Xaios

TemjinStrife said:


> Book 3 would HAVE to be two seasons. Hell, they could stretch it out and make it 3. SOO much happens in the third book.
> 
> Also, the stuff they did with Daenerys and the dragons (the whole warlock bit) in the second season was ridiculously lame compared to how it was in the books.



I actually liked the show's interpretation a lot more. Aside from that, though, parts of the House of the Undying sequence in the book contain pretty major spoilers for events that happen later in the series. It works in the book because you benefit from Danny's lack of perspective; she doesn't know what or who she's seeing in her visions. In the visual medium of television though, we would know EXACTLY who her visions allude to if they had shown them as described in the book, because compared to the characters, we have limited omniscience.


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## gunshow86de

^

I also liked the way the show handled the House of the Undying. There was lots of cool symbolism for what might lay ahead; the throne room with the burnt roofs, snow covering all, and Dany unable to actually touch the throne (that's not a spoiler btw, Dany still hasn't crossed the Narrow Sea in the book series).

One thing that bothered me about Season 3: Episode1;


Spoiler



Sam did send those Ravens dammit! At least he sent the ravens! Isn't that going to make it difficult to explain why Stannis decides to show up and save Castle Black? I know he can send more once back at the wall, but I just don't get why they are continuing to make him so useless. If they don't at least let him use some Dragonglass, I'm gonna be pissed. We need Sam the Slayer!

EDIT: Oh yeah, he sent the ravens without messages. Well, point still stands. At least he sent the ravens!


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## wankerness

Also, I'm sad that spoilers in this thread are apparently as likely to mean book spoilers as spoilers for the episode which just happened. I'm glad that last post didn't contain anything too earth-shattering.


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## MailMan

wankerness said:


> Also, I'm sad that spoilers in this thread are apparently as likely to mean book spoilers as spoilers for the episode which just happened. I'm glad that last post didn't contain anything too earth-shattering.



Maybe we could write "BOOK SPOILER" or something before the spoilers that are froom the books?

Also, hurry up with reading the books 



gunshow86de said:


> ^
> 
> I also liked the way the show handled the House of the Undying. There was lots of cool symbolism for what might lay ahead; the throne room with the burnt roofs, snow covering all, and Dany unable to actually touch the throne (that's not a spoiler btw, Dany still hasn't crossed the Narrow Sea in the book series).



They could've included the wolf-headed king with the iron crown at least... That would not have been a spoiler. A very badass premonition.


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## berzerkergang

What a solid new episode. Just great all around, also, the new viking chick that John Snow is hanging out with is super.


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## wankerness

MailMan said:


> Maybe we could write "BOOK SPOILER" or something before the spoilers that are froom the books?
> 
> Also, hurry up with reading the books



Both of these are good ideas.


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## Prydogga

gunshow86de said:


> ^
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Sam did send those Ravens dammit! At least he sent the ravens! Isn't that going to make it difficult to explain why Stannis decides to show up and save Castle Black? I know he can send more once back at the wall, but I just don't get why they are continuing to make him so useless. If they don't at least let him use some Dragonglass, I'm gonna be pissed. We need Sam the Slayer!
> 
> EDIT: Oh yeah, he sent the ravens without messages. Well, point still stands. At least he sent the ravens!



*somewhat book spoiler I guess but not really* I guess for the sake of on the screen it was easier to do that than have to show the whole failed message sending scene. *book spoiler*


Spoiler



I think what they might do is at some point, either at Craster's or beforehand, have Sam elaborate and say something along the lines of "I *did* send the ravens, I just forgot to attach messages." Also it could be explained that the ravens sent out to the kings would be sent regardless of blank messages returning from beyond the wall. I'm sure with most of the garrison gone, they'd be asking for help regardless.


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## Prydogga

TemjinStrife said:


> Book 3 would HAVE to be two seasons. Hell, they could stretch it out and make it 3. SOO much happens in the third book.
> 
> Also, the stuff they did with Daenerys and the dragons (the whole warlock bit) in the second season was ridiculously lame compared to how it was in the books.



Just watched this:
Game of Thrones - Emmy Panel 2013 - YouTube

Which about an hour in confirms Book 3 being spread across two seasons, sort of.


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## flexkill

Guys all I ask is that you folks who have read the books....please be careful with the spoilers....please.


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## wankerness

flexkill said:


> Guys all I ask is that you folks who have read the books....please be careful with the spoilers....please.



Yeah, we have the books thread for that!


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## Watty

flexkill said:


> Guys all I ask is that you folks who have read the books....please be careful with the spoilers....please.



Solution: Read them.

Honestly, it won't take ALL that long and you won't have to wait a week in between each snippet.


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## Mexi

new episode tonight!! looking forward to seeing what goes on with Jaime and Arya


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## pink freud

I'm actually checking out the AWOIAF wiki for history and what the books have happen up to (roughly) the TV series events. Some things I don't quite get why they did different, like name changes or having other characters giving lines.


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## flexkill

Watty said:


> Solution: Read them.
> 
> Honestly, it won't take ALL that long and you won't have to wait a week in between each snippet.


Watty...really??? I do plan on reading them.....but still ....c'mon man.


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## Watty

Well, maybe it's just me being mad that everyone's jumped on the bandwagon because they made a TV show out of it. Heck, look at his date spread for the books; 1996 to 2011 for the first 5 

It sucks to have to really think about what you need to censor when talking about the, especially given the changes made between the two mediums.


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## Xaios

Watty said:


> It sucks to have to really think about what you need to censor when talking about the, especially given the changes made between the two mediums.



Do it anyway. I've read the books and that doesn't stop me from putting anything that hasn't at least happened in the show in spoiler tags.



Spoiler



Episode 2 was another great one. Again, more talky, but damn were there some deep conversations. The most interesting one was Catlyn's confession that she tried to love Jon Snow but simply couldn't out of jealousy, and now she believed that all the evil that had befallen the family was punishment from the gods for breaking her promise. In the books, you always got an inkling that she felt guilty, but it was never laid out like that. I liked it, it was a powerful scene.

Also interesting that they've opted to keep Theon in the series, when in the books he disappears completely at the end of A Clash of Kings and doesn't come back until A Dance With Dragons. It seems they've decided to show the slow transformation from what he is now to what he becomes then.

Oh yeah, and it turns out everyone in King's Landing wants to bone Sansa. Bow-chicka-wow-wow.


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## petereanima

pink freud said:


> Some things I don't quite get why they did different, like name changes or having other characters giving lines.



Seriously...some changes, especcially in S02, are completely stupid. I watched it right after it aired, ahted it actually, and thought "well, I need to rewatch it later, with a fresh head" - did that just before S03 started...and hated it even more. So much, I currently don't plan to even watch S03.


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## Metal_Webb

Here's a picture of the books that I took a few months ago:







See the 3rd and 4th novels? That's A Storm of Swords. Of course it was going to be split into 2 seasons. Turning that much text into 10 hours of TV would be a storytelling disaster  Heck, Clash of Kings should have been in 2 parts as well.

Enjoyed S3 so far. Haven't caught up with the books, but I can tell that it's not being quite as rushed in terms of story as S2 was.
TV "spoiler":


Spoiler



Doesn't Joffrey seem like a COD kid to you as well? An A-grade asshole with a thing for big weapons 



Also, Margery Tyrell. 10/10. Would bang.


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## Xaios

Damn, I just had a thought.



Spoiler



That guy who was sweeping while Theon was being tortured, who then proclaimed that he was sent by Yara? I bet that *IS* Ramsay Snow, playing a twisted game.





Metal_Webb said:


> Also, Margery Tyrell. 10/10. Would bang.





Spoiler



I love how she got Joffrey's motor running by inducing a hatekill boner.


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## Watty

Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Also interesting that they've opted to keep Theon in the series, when in the books he disappears completely at the end of A Clash of Kings and doesn't come back until A Dance With Dragons. It seems they've decided to show the slow transformation from what he is now to what he becomes then.





Spoiler



Uh, wasn't he interspersed in the other books as a "different" character after being twisted by the torture? I thought I remembered reading him in the others until he "becomes himself" again in 5...





Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> That guy who was sweeping while Theon was being tortured, who then proclaimed that he was sent by Yara? I bet that *IS* Ramsay Snow, playing a twisted game.



Wouldn't be surprised, unless they're playing at a huge deviation from the books with the dynamic that changed his character...



Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I love how she got Joffrey's motor running by inducing a hatekill boner.





Spoiler



She wasn't trying to get his motor running, she was trying to see what kind of man he was; this, as was evidenced by how much time they spent introducing her charitable proclivities and the dynamic with her grandmother. It wasn't a sexual plot item in the slightest IMHO. Turns out he's even more of a perverted fuck in the show than the book.


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## Xaios

Watty said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, wasn't he interspersed in the other books as a "different" character after being twisted by the torture? I thought I remembered reading him in the others until he "becomes himself" again in 5...





Spoiler



Nope. In A Clash of Kings, there is a Reek character (the pseudonym later attributed to Theon), but it's actually Ramsay Snow in disguise. Other than that, there's literally nothing between books 2 and 5.





Watty said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> She wasn't trying to get his motor running, she was trying to see what kind of man he was; this, as was evidenced by how much time they spent introducing her charitable proclivities and the dynamic with her grandmother. It wasn't a sexual plot item in the slightest IMHO. Turns out he's even more of a perverted fuck in the show than the book.





Spoiler



She already knew what kind of person he was. If she wasn't 100% aware of it before Sansa explained it to her, she was after. She was basically ingratiating herself to him so that she could get into a better position to manipulate him. Giving him a hate-boner (and also stroking his ego in general) was simply the easiest way of doing it. "Damn, this girl shares my love of killing shit, that's hot!"


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## Lorcan Ward

The latest episode was brilliant! I don't think I had a single complaint apart from having to rush some character introductions but thats inevitable unless they up it to 12 episodes.


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## Grand Moff Tim

I think I'll do what I did with the first two seasons and wait for all of season three's episodes to be out so I can watch them all in one Game of Thrones-o-Rama of a weekend.

Gotta admit I'm not really in a huge hurry at this point, though, since I've read all of the books now. If anything I'm curious about how they're going to mix things up and to see if the actors they choose to play new characters are good choices, but otherwise it's not like there will be any surprises waiting for me.

I did what some others have done and went out and got the books immediately after finishing season 2, because there was no fucking _way_ I was going to wait until a new season came out to see what happens when I could just _zooooop_ all the books right to my iPad. I read through them starting from the beginning and had ample time to make it through everything well before season three started airing, and I recommend anyone with spare time for reading do the same.

Shit, though, if you fans of the show think the wait between seasons sucks, imagine how the wait between *books* must feel .


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## Xaios

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Shit, though, if you fans of the show think the wait between seasons sucks, imagine how the wait between *books* must feel .



Haha, no kidding.


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## TheDivineWing22

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Shit, though, if you fans of the show think the wait between seasons sucks, imagine how the wait between *books* must feel .



^^This. I can't stop worrying that the series won't be finished before he dies.


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## metal_sam14

Loving season 3 so far, I just started the first book as well and so far I am impressed by how true the first season was to it. 

Also, this is relevant and hilarious: "Game Of Thrones" Actors Doing Normal Stuff Is So Weird


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## wankerness

Weird, I saw that exact same list of images on another site (minus the crappy captions), only it had this gem at the end:


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## Watty

Alright, the actor who plays Margery.....way better looking in "real life."



TheDivineWing22 said:


> ^^This. I can't stop worrying that the series won't be finished before he dies.



Oh god, do NOT EVEN jinx it. Robert Jordan's death led to the worst ending to the series I could have imagined, and the complexity of WoT pales in comparison to this.


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## Xaios

My understanding is that, if George Martin packs it in before he finishes the series, he's actually declared that no one will finish it in his stead, at least in book form. He gave the coles notes of how the next two novels will flesh out to the people at HBO, so that the show will live on even if the books don't.


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## theo

s03e02 for me tonight, Been too busy up until now. Can't wait. I started off on the books and was so happy when the show started. Gotta re-read books one and two so I can start the 3rd.


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## petereanima

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Shit, though, if you fans of the show think the wait between seasons sucks, imagine how the wait between *books* must feel .



I started reading it after A Feast For Crows came out, so I "only" waited 4 years on A Dance With Dragons....but goddman, that felt like eternity.


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## flint757

Maybe I should just wait 20 years or so until he finishes all the books to bother.


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## TheDivineWing22

petereanima said:


> I started reading it after A Feast For Crows came out, so I "only" waited 4 years on A Dance With Dragons....but goddman, that felt like eternity.



Doesn't he say at the end of the book that a Dance with Dragons would be out within a year? 

I'm just glad I started reading them right after A Dance came out.


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## petereanima

TheDivineWing22 said:


> Doesn't he say at the end of the book that a Dance with Dragons would be out within a year?



Yes.


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## gunshow86de

This is totally relevant to this thread.

http://www.uproxx.com/tv/2013/04/game-of-thrones-updog/


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## wankerness

flint757 said:


> Maybe I should just wait 20 years or so until he finishes all the books to bother.



I can't believe he's 60, he looks about 80. I doubt he'll live long enough to finish them.


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## Sofos

wankerness said:


> I can't believe he's 60, he looks about 80. I doubt he'll live long enough to finish them.



He damn well better, or at least write down what happens in a sealed envelope only to be opened after his death. Or if we are left on a cliff hanger, we call all argue forever about who should be crowned. 

Daenerys Targaryen has my vote. 

also, i never read the books, so the ending of the episode was a huge HOLY FUCKING SHIT ON MY BALLS WHILE TEABAGGING A HOOKER ON SUNDAY


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## Watty

F&%^ whoever replaced the audio during the last 30 seconds of this nights' episode.


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## wankerness

Watty said:


> F&%^ whoever replaced the audio during the last 30 seconds of this nights' episode.



????

Did you download a corrupted torrent or was something wrong with the broadcast in your area? There was nothing weird about it on my end. The end credits music choice was jarring, to say the least, but up until then holy shit.

This show is the most maddening I've ever seen in terms of just wanting MORE. I could easily watch an 8 hour long episode every week. There are so many plotlines going right now that I'm just dying to know what happens next and you only get about 5 minutes with each plotline on average a week cause there are so many characters doing so many different things. I love how they are introducing new characters like crazy, too. The acting and scripting and everything is so fucking good on this show, they introduced that shitty brother of Catelyn and his uncle so perfectly, that whole scene with lighting the funeral pyre implied so much about their characters with no dialogue whatsoever. Amazing stuff.

Daenerys' plotline looks like it's going to be an apocalypse of awesome in the very near future, seems like she's setting up some kind of major powerplay. I can't fucking wait for that ridiculous asshole she's been dealing with to get owned (well, I just assume he will), I was overjoyed when Daenerys took his translator. It's incredible how about 15 minutes total screentime for her this season so far has completely reversed my opinion on her character, I thought she was easily the least interesting character last season.

Jamie and Brienne are so great as a pair. I didn't really like the Brienne character until they paired her with him, their interplay is so great and the situation they're in currently is probably the one I'm the most involved in. 

I assume the squire kid's whore excursion will turn out to be relevant later somehow, but as what seemed like filler it was certainly fine, Bronn and Tyrrion are a joy to watch as always. 

Arya and Hot Pie's scene was very good and surprisingly rather touching. That Hot Pie has really grown on me.

I think this may be the only episode I can remember with no Joffrey. It's sort of a relief. The actor is just so goddam good at being an unbearable little asshole that I can feel my blood begin to boil every time he's on the screen. That scene last week with him and Margery was so cringeworthy, though I'm really starting to love her character. He's so unpredictable and vile that I get scared whenever he's on screen with any character I like.

The Jon Snow thing seems like it might take a while to get good, but I'm not uninterested by it. Seems like our old pal Sam might take some action in the next episode (well, assuming we come back to him anyway), too.

I'm so consistently blown away by the events and surprises on the show that I'm no longer sure if I WANT to read the books, having all this stuff new is so great. I'll probably cave if I ever actually finish the second book, though.

EDIT: OH YEAH, Stannis's scene. Yet another plotline that is giving clear signs that it will turn out to be incredibly fucking awesome sooner or later, but it's looking like that's going to take a couple weeks to do much of anything, at least. Melisandre is such a mystery to me so far.


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## wankerness

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> He damn well better, or at least write down what happens in a sealed envelope only to be opened after his death. Or if we are left on a cliff hanger, we call all argue forever about who should be crowned.
> 
> Daenerys Targaryen has my vote.
> 
> also, i never read the books, so the ending of the episode was a huge HOLY FUCKING SHIT ON MY BALLS WHILE TEABAGGING A HOOKER ON SUNDAY



I think someone else might have mentioned this in the thread already, but he has already told the people in charge of the show what's going to happen in the last two books in case he croaks. I sorta doubt the show can sustain itself for that long just cause the cast is so huge and they're going to start getting OLD and older characters might start dying off before they're going to make it through all the books, especially if they have to split more books into multiple years of the show again.


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## flint757

Don't know about that. I haven't read the books, but I'm told things start dragging out in the books past book 3 so I doubt they are going to split every book. Even if they did that would only be 10 years. That's the length of the Harry Potter movie series with only a couple character deviations occurring.


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## Watty

wankerness said:


> ????
> 
> Did you download a corrupted torrent or was something wrong with the broadcast in your area? There was nothing weird about it on my end. The end credits music choice was jarring, to say the least, but up until then holy shit.



I guess so, the audio from the credits (?) started in about 8 seconds before the "event" at the end of the episode. Suppose there wasn't too much to be said that I couldn't imagine from the books though...

Was it ever stated specifically that they were the Brave Companions? I didn't think Hoat's name was thrown around at all...

Edit: It would have been from the East Coast, so whatever's up with that. I have HBO, but don't want to wait until 9pm...


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## Sofos

wankerness, for the love of god, SPOILER TAGS. i mean, ive seen the episode, but there are so many spoilers in that post, it's ridiculous


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## wankerness

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> wankerness, for the love of god, SPOILER TAGS. i mean, ive seen the episode, but there are so many spoilers in that post, it's ridiculous



I purposely left out any details that could "ruin" anything other than "Danaerys took the translator", which didn't seem like much of a spoiler at all, but now that I think about it, who comes into a thread about a TV show AFTER an episode airs without expecting to see talk about what happened on it? :O I know I avoid threads like this like the plague until I'm caught up, just like I avoid the book thread here!


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## Metal_Webb

Well. 


Spoiler



I lost my shit at the post-whore discussion. Have not laughed that hard in quite a while. "You mean, they let you have it for free? Sit down boy, we need details" 

And that ending......I knew that things happened to Jamie that caused him to change his outlook on life, so to speak, but that was pretty unexpected.



Most inappropriate credit music 2013. GoT, S3 E3.


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## pink freud

Spoiler



Did anybody else predict the archer fail? I was just thinking "wouldn't it be something if he misses?" and then miss... miss...


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## sakeido

I had the glitched music as well, kind of ruined the levity of that moment. Then it was so brutal at the end I'm not going back to watch it again... ah well. Great episode. Kinda sucks how they have so many plots on the go that they can't show them all in one ep but that gets toned down a bit after book 3 so we just gotta tough it out.


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## flexkill

Spoiler



I totally thought that guy was going for jaime lannister's bullshit....then he cut his fucking hand off!!!! I was like holy shit!!!


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## davidsantana27

Spoiler



I knew that he is just playing with Jamie and giving him a false hope, that was totally badass 


 But anyway I enjoy this season less than 1st and 2nd, not so absorbing.


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## gunshow86de

Next week on Game of Thrones...........


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## pink freud

Another funny bit: The confusion about the name of Winterfell reminded me about how I confuse GoT locations with Skyrim places all the time.


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## gunshow86de

Anybody else noticing the way Jaimie was dangling his right hand while he was still chained to the tree? I don't know if the writer's/director's did that intentionally, but it had me wincing the whole scene preparing for the big moment. It was just kind of hanging out there like, "hey, it'd be really easy to chop me off!"


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## Xaios

Alright, that's one "big moment" out of the way!


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## flexkill

you guys are terrible!


----------



## gunshow86de

Why are people using spoiler tags on things that have _already_ happened in the show? It's only for book readers to keep them from spoiling what is going to happen.


----------



## flexkill

gunshow86de said:


> Why are people using spoiler tags on things that have _already_ happened in the show? It's only for book readers to keep them from spoiling what is going to happen.



Not everyone is as up to date man.


----------



## gunshow86de

^

How do they live with themselves knowing there's a new, unwatched, episode available?


----------



## flexkill

gunshow86de said:


> ^
> 
> How do they live with themselves knowing there's a new, unwatched, episode available?



IDK


----------



## Mendez

I might catch up to just to see the "big moment". On the other hand, I want the next book


----------



## flexkill

Mendez said:


> I might catch up to just to see the "big moment". *On the other hand*, I want the next book


----------



## Watty

I guess it was a good thing I checked the next page after seeing his post...was going to do the same thing.


----------



## Mendez

Funny because it wasn't intentional. Right after I submitted the post, i re-read it and basically told that to my self


----------



## pink freud

Mendez said:


> Funny because it wasn't intentional. Right after I submitted the post, i re-read it and basically told that to my self



I have to hand it to ya, it was inspired.


----------



## Sofos

pink freud said:


> I have to hand it to ya, it was inspired.



You guys are getting pretty handy with these puns. I don't know how you guys do it. Frankly, I'm stumped.


----------



## Watty

Oh, stop it you guys...things are really getting out of hand here; don't know if I can handle the direction of this conversation.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

There's something off here, but I can't put my finger on it...


----------



## Sofos

Grand Moff Tim said:


> There's something off here, but I can't put my finger on it...



I'm having some trouble grasping it as well.


----------



## Xaios

Hands down, one of the best jokes in a while.


----------



## AxeHappy

Does anybody else find the way the Theon thing is going quite jarring?


----------



## Xaios

I have to admit, I am mildly confused by the actions of "the mystery dude" who is helping Theon.



Spoiler



There are still some signs that he is Ramsay Snow, such as when he uttered the Stark words, "Winter is Coming" (possibly being the bastard son of a Stark bannerman, after all), despite having supposedly being sent by Theon's sister. However, sadistic as he is, there wasn't anything in the book that would suggest that Ramsay Snow would kill his own men, especially when they're carrying out his orders. He also never makes any effort to hide his sadism in the book, always operating on the "hand-wringing, teeth-gnashing evil" setting.


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> I have to admit, I am mildly confused by the actions of "the mystery dude" who is helping Theon.





Spoiler



I think they are trying to make his "tricking" of Theon more plausible to the TV audience. Ramsay is making Theon believe he was sent by his sister, so that she will let them inside the castle they are holding (Deepwood Motte?). There was a hint of that in the preview for the next episode. Whatever the case, there's no doubt in my mind that the mystery dude is Ramsay.


----------



## Xaios

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I think they are trying to make his "tricking" of Theon more plausible to the TV audience. Ramsay is making Theon believe he was sent by his sister, so that she will let them inside the castle they are holding (Deepwood Motte?). There was a hint of that in the preview for the next episode. Whatever the case, there's no doubt in my mind that the mystery dude is Ramsay.





Spoiler



Hmm, intriguing. I didn't stick around to watch the preview, so I'll have to check that out. But that would also create another divergence from the book, as the Ironborn held Deepwood Motte up until ADWD when Stannis came marching in.

Curious.


----------



## MailMan

wankerness said:


> OH YEAH, Stannis's scene. Yet another plotline that is giving clear signs that it will turn out to be incredibly fucking awesome sooner or later, but it's looking like that's going to take a couple weeks to do much of anything, at least. Melisandre is such a mystery to me so far.



Stannis's plotline will become truly interesting, and very important for the whole realm - but I think they won't show what will he really do until next season.

I see you guys have had a handful of good jokes back there...


----------



## liamh

Spoiler



Podrick Payn has a really big cock


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, intriguing. I didn't stick around to watch the preview, so I'll have to check that out. But that would also create another divergence from the book, as the Ironborn held Deepwood Motte up until ADWD when Stannis came marching in.
> 
> Curious.





Spoiler



I must be getting my timelines confused then. The preview just showed Theon and Mystery Man/Ramsey sneaking up to a castle wall. It's possible it's just the Dreadfort.


----------



## Xaios

MailMan said:


> Stannis's plotline will become truly interesting, and very important for the whole realm - but I think they won't show what will he really do until next season.





Spoiler



Indeed. If the Red Wedding is going to be the "big event" of season 3, then the battle at the Wall between the Night's Watch, wildings and ultimately Stannis' forces will be the marquee event of season 4.

I am curious as to whether or not they'll fit the skirmish between the Night's Watch and the wildlings who scaled the wall into season 3 or if it'll get pushed into season 4.



Know what we REALLY haven't had enough of? "You know nothing, Jon Snow." Need some more of that.


----------



## gunshow86de

^

We also need copious details about (Tri)Pod.


----------



## Xaios

Oh, oh! One more!

Jaime and Brienne's scenes single-handedly elevated the episode, especially when he told them to unhand him.


----------



## TheDivineWing22

Xaios said:


> Oh, oh! One more!
> 
> Jaime and Brienne's scenes single-handedly elevated the episode, especially when he told them to unhand him.



I'm glad the puns are back. I felt they were cut short.


----------



## flexkill

Fucking thread tags


----------



## gunshow86de

Jaimie should have bribed him with more thappireths. He might not be able to fight, but he could still be _Hand_ of the King.


----------



## TheDivineWing22

Ok guys, all of these puns are an under-_handed_ method for pushing this thread off-topic.


----------



## Sofos

He had a sword, but easily let them disarm him. Jamie is a real knuckle-head isn't he?


----------



## TheDivineWing22

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> He had a sword, but easily let them disarm him. Jamie is a real knuckle-head isn't he?



On the contrary, I thought he faced the situation quite _hand_ily, despite being short _handed_ at that point in time.


----------



## metal_sam14

Hand job.


----------



## pink freud

What did Cersei think of Jaime when he finally got back to King's Landing?

She thought he was quite hand_some._


----------



## gunshow86de

This should give you the upper hand in the pun-off.

hand - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


----------



## Sofos

TheDivineWing22 said:


> Ok guys, all of these puns are an under-_handed_ method for pushing this thread off-topic.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Getting a little heavy-handed with the puns here, guys.


----------



## Mendez

What have I started!  

I really like how Jaime's outlook on life changes from then on though. He handles it well tbh, although his sword skills are pretty much stumped.


----------



## sakeido

man is this reddit now or something? 

i'm pretty sure you started repeating yourselves after 5 puns 

hooooo boy


----------



## flexkill

sakeido said:


> man is this reddit now or something?
> 
> i'm pretty sure you started repeating yourselves after 5 puns
> 
> hooooo boy



Get a *grip*!


----------



## Xaios

Don't have to be Reddit to be handy with the puns.


----------



## theo

I tried for a pun... I just keep coming up empty handed though


----------



## Fiction

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think these jokes are getting old.


----------



## theo

Aw Cmon Fction, It's just 'armless fun.


----------



## yellowv

I finally just started season 1 on Sunday. Already finished it. Now to start on season 2. Great show.


----------



## gunshow86de

Combining two of the greatest TV shows of all time (IMO, and my opinion is always correct ).


----------



## Xaios

It's a shame that the Westerama blog never gets updated anymore with stuff from post-Season 1. Combining the end of the last episode with quotes from the Futurama episode "The Devil's Hands Are Idle Playthings" would be freaking golden.


----------



## MailMan

Gentlemen, do we have any volunteers?


----------



## Xaios

I'd bet dollars to donuts that she isn't nearly as attractive as Emilia Clarke.


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> I'd bet dollars to donuts that she isn't nearly as attractive as Emilia Clarke.



I bet she eats more donuts than Emilia Clarke too.


Also, very few are as attractive as Emilia. Even without makeup......


----------



## MailMan

gunshow86de said:


> I bet she eats more donuts than Emilia Clarke too.
> 
> 
> Also, very few are as attractive as Emilia. Even without makeup......


+1

She looks a lot better with her original hair colour IMO.


----------



## Sofos

Very few women look as good naked, either


----------



## AliceLG

gunshow86de said:


> I bet she eats more donuts than Emilia Clarke too.
> 
> 
> Also, very few are as attractive as Emilia. Even without makeup......



She's soooo preeeettyyyyyy


----------



## pink freud

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> Very few women look as good naked, either



Well, HBO will have to get Ygritte to get nude for me to support such a claim.


----------



## flexkill

pink freud said:


> Well, HBO will have to get Ygritte to get nude for me to support such a claim.



Patience my boy, this is HBO after all, it is in their contract that they must get naked.


----------



## hand amputation

So glad to have found this thread.

Been watching since it started, and since season 3 started I went back and rewatched from the beginning. 

I'm on s2e7 as of now and I love it more the 2nd time than I did the first time!


So..Who's everyone's favorite GoT babe?

Mine used to be






But now I think I'm going





Just somethin' 'bout Ygritte...


----------



## Watty

I don't know if they'd go as far as the "Lord's Kiss" scene....would they?


----------



## redstone

hand amputation said:


> Just somethin' 'bout Ygritte...



The smartest girl in the room ?


----------



## hand amputation

I also must add... 

Upon re-watching season 1 and 2, I have to complain that Daenerys Targaryen gets on my nerves. I understand that she's supposed to be 'intense'... but the overacting is killing it for me. Plus, there's just something too "Olsen twin" about her... 

Or... maybe I'm just a jaded a-hole.


----------



## flexkill

^^^^ Get the fuck outta here with that user name !!!


----------



## hand amputation

flexkill said:


> ^^^^ Get the fuck outta here with that user name !!!



Been my internet hand-le since the early 2000's!

8<  >8


----------



## gunshow86de

hand amputation said:


> So..Who's everyone's favorite GoT babe?



In "Show World," I gotta go with the Khaleesi.

Among the actresses in real life, definitely Ros (even though her character is annoying and unnecessary).


----------



## Watty

Ygritte.

Because Redheads...Redheads everywhere.


----------



## wankerness

hand amputation said:


> I also must add...
> 
> Upon re-watching season 1 and 2, I have to complain that Daenerys Targaryen gets on my nerves. I understand that she's supposed to be 'intense'... but the overacting is killing it for me. Plus, there's just something too "Olsen twin" about her...
> 
> Or... maybe I'm just a jaded a-hole.



I like her for the first part of season 1, but then she turns into a (thankfully much milder version) version of that fucking bitch Sookie from True Blood who constantly starts shit and yells at everyone while hiding behind her boyfriend in case they try and rightfully tear off her head. In season 2 she just really had nothing to do other than impotently blustering about her dragons, I couldn't stand her scenes but it wasn't cause I hated the character really. She's been fine this season.

Best woman on the show is Cersei, obviously, she's such a hilarious bitch. All of her lines are delivered with such venom and she's a joy to watch. The few little blips in season 2 where some humanity shines through were well-handled too. I also really like Margery and Arya.

Oh, was the question HOTTEST woman on the show? 

(probably Margery or Shae)


----------



## Basti

Arya


----------



## theo

You guys aware that shae has actually made a few porn movies?


----------



## Watty

A few?  That was news as soon as it was announced before season 1.


----------



## theo

Just making sure it was known


----------



## pink freud

Story checks out.

Disappointing tramp-stamp.


----------



## theo

I've gotta agree with the tramp stamp dislike.


----------



## flexkill

Oh man, this latest episode was good! It went by so fast....


----------



## theo

It's Monday here... And I have band practice tonight. There is at least another 30 hours to go before I can watch it


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, it went by too fast, my favorite plotline is probably Jaime/Brienne now. He can kick all the kids out of windows he wants, I love him now. Though now Daenerys is probably my favorite character. This episode was utterly great and this season has been getting better and better every episode. I loved what happened with Sam as well, and Varys had some great scenes. I wasn't expecting to get so much backstory on him.

I still hate Sansa cause she's always acting like such a martyr while she totally deserves it for that whole wolf/kid thing in the first season! I had almost forgotten about that until they brought it up again. 

I did not recognize Eyepatch man at all but apparently he really was in season 1.


----------



## Xaios

Heh, more talk of Podrick, newly ascended God of Sexomancy. 

EDIT: I also had the most bizarre compulsion to make this:


----------



## Sofos

Great episode. Daenerys' part was the highlight. She is the ultimate badass.


----------



## pink freud

Spoiler



Got to love Cersei being told that she is stupid in the same manner she tried telling Tyrion the same, by her own father.



Yeah, the last scenes were a great way to end the episode.


----------



## Metal_Webb

That 4th episode.


Holy. Shit.


----------



## gunshow86de

Oh man, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau did an excellent job as Jamie last night. Such a broken man. When he was in the mud, reaching for the sword with his missing hand.... 

We finally saw the real Khalessi emerge, no more whiny little girl. That whole scene was awesome.

I guess we got our answer about Theon's "mystery helper." That guy was so creepy right at the end of the scene. Sidenote: show writers, stop trying to make me care about Theon!

Poor Mormont. "And now his watch has ended."


Spoiler



Kind of sad he didn't get to say his last words to Sam, like the book.


----------



## pink freud

Theon is going to have a lot of torture scenes in store for him, methinks.


----------



## hand amputation

theo said:


> You guys aware that shae has actually made a few porn movies?



Who?


----------



## hand amputation

Also... s3e4 was the first time I actually liked Daenerys. I have to admit that last scene made the episode. Very cool, indeed!


----------



## gunshow86de

hand amputation said:


> Who?



Tyrion's whore girlfriend.


----------



## gunshow86de

Sorry to bring back the puns, but this is brilliant.


----------



## Xaios

Haha, that's brilliant. 

Yeah, Danny's scene in this episode was unbridled awesomeness. I'm especially glad about how close they kept it to the book. Easily the best scene involving her since season 1.

And yeah, the scene with Theon and Mr. Mystery pretty much confirms that he's...



Spoiler



Ramsay Snow.



Just don't wanna say the name until the show actually does too. 

I felt bad for Theon again. I guess I've always been more sympathetic to him than most. He and Jaime have a lot in common, in that they're both slaves to a family legacy which forces them to act a certain way.



Spoiler



Actually, regarding Ramsay, I have a guess in which way the show is gonna take it. I'm guessing that the men who were torturing and chasing Theon really didn't know what Ramsay was up to. Ramsay instead orchestrated the ploy on his own to gain intel from Theon that the Stark boys are still alive. And now bringing Theon back as a captive is what's going to prompt Roose Bolton to give Ramsay the Bolton name so that he's no longer a bastard from a legal perspective.


----------



## wankerness

I'm scared to go over your spoilers cause I'm not sure if you're saying things that happen later in teh books or not


----------



## theo

I'm wishing I hadn't gone over the spoilers. DON'T DO IT!


----------



## Sofos




----------



## Radau

That is pure gold!


----------



## AliceLG

Spoiler



I found the introduction of Beric Dondarrion was way more dramatic in the books. Here it was like the hound was saying "Beric Dondarrion you old fart!" and then proceeded to hug him. The smug face when he said he's the one to trail combat his ass was golden though.



Also


Spoiler



The whole scene in Valyrian was pure gold. No more little whiny bitch indeed.



And also


Spoiler



I can't wait until they kill that snotty stain in human existence that is Joffrey Baratheon. But I'd like to see some Margery titties before that happens 



And finally, I found the lack of titties in this episode disturbing. It's like they forgot to run this one through a focus group or something


----------



## hand amputation

An exercise in self-control... NOT clicking spoilers..


----------



## Vostre Roy

hand amputation said:


> An exercise in self-control... NOT clicking spoilers..


 
Your nickname is awefully fitting this thread

And I second the lack of titties in this episode


----------



## gunshow86de

They should just make Ros topless in every scene. They could fix the lack of boobage and make her character less annoying. Kill two birds with one stone!

What? That's not chauvinistic in the least bit.


----------



## theo

I'd like to see some more boobs In the show too. Ross would be a good start. But the other options are damn good too!


----------



## Webmaestro

gunshow86de said:


> They should just make Ros topless in every scene.




+10 

<3 Esmé Bianco


----------



## theo

I don't want to derail the thread, But we put GoT references into my bands new song.
If you'd like to hear it PM me for the youtube link.


----------



## berzerkergang

Bizarre trivia fact, the actresses that play Sansa and Arya are only a year apart in age in real life. That blew my mind.


----------



## flint757

I could believe it. Sansa isn't that mature looking in appearance.


----------



## Basti

Hell yeah Daenerys  great scene indeed


----------



## hairychris

Tried starting the 1st series when re-run here in the UK. Didn't get into it, although did seem to be pretty accurate wrt the book... Then again I generally prefer reading the original over TV or movie adaptations.

If the series stays close to the books then you're in for a lot of fun and a massive body count of lead characters!

EDIT: Oh yeah, plenty more one-liners for Tyrion to come.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Don't really have anything to add here, other than the books are awesome, the show is awesome and I've not seen any of the third series (but obviously due to the books I know that


Spoiler



Joffrey, Robb Stark and Catelyn (well sort of)


 are due to die.

yeah


----------



## crg123

Lol has anyone seen this yet. I just found it today. http://mashable.com/2013/03/13/game-of-thrones-1995/

Its the intro in cheesy 1995's tv show intro style. Ah the memories.


----------



## Jackson12s

hand amputation said:


> So..Who's everyone's favorite GoT babe?



This. /thread


----------



## gunshow86de

If you have U-Verse, read the info/summary for tonight's episode. Surely we can't be to _that_ episode yet?


----------



## Watty

Welp, you guys got your wish in tonight's episode...lol

*wink*


----------



## gunshow86de

The Lord's Kiss, it appears Jon Snow does know something.


----------



## pink freud

pink freud said:


> Well, HBO will have to get Ygritte to get nude for me to support such a claim.



It's nice when TV networks are considerate.


----------



## Xaios

Well, it seems tonight's episode theme was "ALL the asses!"


----------



## Jackson12s

I found the lack of Daenerys disappointing after the last episode


----------



## pink freud

Xaios said:


> Well, it seems tonight's episode theme was "ALL the asses!"



And fire. Should have named the episode "My Ass is on Fire" in tribute to Mr. Bungle.


----------



## Xaios

Indeed.

I was glad to finally see Jaime's monologue, it's a real turning point for him as a character. Also, Tywin telling Tyrion that he's now engaged to Sansa is one of the best WTF moments from the whole series.


----------



## Overtone

Game of Butts


----------



## Sofos

This episode bored me for the most part, but Daenerys' monologue to Grey Worm was awesome. What he said must have been very humbling to her.


----------



## gunshow86de

Game of Thrones: Season 3, Episode 5 Ass Power Rankings:

1. Ygritte
2. Uh.......... not sure if put Brienne or someone's man ass
3. Rest of man ass

Sidenote: We're already half way through the season. 


Also, this;


----------



## Xaios

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> This episode bored me for the most part, but Daenerys' monologue to Grey Worm was awesome. What he said must have been very humbling to her.



You be crazy, son. This was the best episode of the season so far.



gunshow86de said:


> Sidenote: We're already half way through the season.



Now THAT is depressing. 

Dammit HBO, why can't you make longer seasons??


----------



## Mexi

hard to follow up with an ending like last week's, but last night's episode was great. really solid as far as character development (humanizing Jaime, particularly) and wtf battle rez from the lord of light. I rather enjoyed the nudity, aka Ygritte. and GG Tywin, certainly moving his way up to "hugest d-bag", almost up there with Joffrey.


----------



## Sofos

Xaios said:


> You be crazy, son. This was the best episode of the season so far.
> 
> 
> 
> Now THAT is depressing.
> 
> Dammit HBO, why can't you make longer seasons??



Best quote of the episode, though, has to be "You know, nothing John Sno.. OH."


----------



## Xaios

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> Best quote of the episode, though, has to be "You know, nothing John Sno.. OH."



Aye, got a kick out of that one too.


----------



## hand amputation

Ygritte's butt and fronts.... FINALLY!

I didn't realize that'd she'd be so skinny under all that fur!


----------



## uberthrall

I'm just gonna skip all the way to the end of the thread here........love the show, haven't read the books so I'm spoiler shy. I'll say this, I sure as fuck hope HBO doesn't pull the plug on this one early, like it did with Deadwood and Rome. The Deadwood canceling was especially irksome..........and yet they still give that ass hat Bill Maher airtime.


----------



## Watty

Well, to be fair, political commentators are a bit more popular and watchable than Westerns nowadays. I doubt they'd cancel this, if not only because they had a huge following to begin with (book readers) and then can build on that base with word of mouth about a TV show instead of the tome each book happens to be.


----------



## Xaios

Game of Thrones is in a pretty safe position, being one of HBO's most-watched shows ever, and the ratings only keep getting higher. A lot of HBO's other shows are have been the opposite: starting with great ratings, and then declining steadily, such as Deadwood. Games of Thrones started with good ratings, and has since moved up to great.


----------



## uberthrall

Watty said:


> Well, to be fair, political commentators are a bit more popular and watchable than Westerns nowadays. I doubt they'd cancel this, if not only because they had a huge following to begin with (book readers) and then can build on that base with word of mouth about a TV show instead of the tome each book happens to be.


 


Oh, I know. I think another big thing with keeping Maher on is it's relatively cheap to produce schedule filler.


----------



## flexkill

uberthrall said:


> I'm just gonna skip all the way to the end of the thread here........love the show, haven't read the books so I'm spoiler shy. I'll say this, I sure as fuck hope HBO doesn't pull the plug on this one early, like it did with Deadwood and Rome. The Deadwood canceling was especially irksome..........and yet they still give that ass hat Bill Maher airtime.




To this day I am still not over the Deadwood fiasco! I loved that show and what they did with the cancellation was unforgivable!!


----------



## theo

That's it, Im out.. unsubscribed. WAY too many things spoiled for me now.


----------



## pink freud

theo said:


> That's it, Im out.. unsubscribed. WAY too many things spoiled for me now.



Joffrey kills Dumbledore.


----------



## Watty

pink freud said:


> Joffrey kills Dumbledore.



And Cersei marries Yogi Bear.


----------



## gunshow86de

pink freud said:


> Joffrey kills Dumbledore.





Watty said:


> And Cersei marries Yogi Bear.





Spoiler



Bruce Willis is a ghost the whole time!!!!!


----------



## crg123

I just love how this is one of the shows that just seems to get progressively better.



Spoiler



When Daenerys Targaryen steps into the fire and out comes dragons I was like This is gonna get soooo good. Then she reveals she understood the douch selling the slaves the whole time and I was fuck yes what a badass.

I didn't care for her at first but now she's my second favorite character besides Tyrion Lannister for obvious reasons


----------



## Origin

200 pages into the fifth book, and still haven't seen an episode. You guys are giving me a hankering  but if I start now my brain will shit itself for want of continuity. Just 800 more to go haha


----------



## sakeido

Just caught up after Mexico. Episode 4 was mindblowing, that one had everything... some epic monologues, especially Varys's. Awesome moments with the Night's Watch and Daenerys. Probably one of the best episodes of the show so far.

Ep5 did not follow quite as well.. the look on Littlefinger's face when Cersei asked him for a favor was hilarious. She is every bit as dumb as her dad thinks she is. Big character moment for Jaime. And Good GOD.... Ygritte. WOW.


----------



## craigny

Yeah...big GOT fan here...I also really dig the Jamie/Brienne sotryline....The way they have broke down the Kingslayer is really cool....you finally get to see a different side of him actually making him more "human" with his monoluge about the killing of the mad king. I dug his character before as the guy you love to hate, but its a very interesting twist...plus Tyrion rules!! I've been reading the books too but now i dont want to go to far ahead to ruin what happens next on the show.


----------



## MailMan

After watching the last episode, I realized that this is the best season so far. I just love how they visualize some of the best scenes of the book (like the Ygritte-John Snow cave scene). Almost all the actors are pretty good, too (Stannis' wife & daughter are spot on). It's a shame we don't get more of Varys!


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Origin said:


> 200 pages into the fifth book, and still haven't seen an episode. You guys are giving me a hankering  but if I start now my brain will shit itself for want of continuity. Just 800 more to go haha



obviously I won't spoil what happens in book 5 but... things.

VERY BIG things.


----------



## gunshow86de

Origin said:


> 200 pages into the fifth book, and still haven't seen an episode. You guys are giving me a hankering  but if I start now my brain will shit itself for want of continuity. Just 800 more to go haha



I've read all the books, and the show still blows me away nearly every episode. It is definitely worth watching. The cast is really good, and the writers and directors do an amazing job (for the most part) of adapting such an immense story for television.


----------



## Murdstone

I just saw the picture of Brienne naked lounging around with a blonde afro. 

That was something.


----------



## Sofos




----------



## whatupitsjoe

Origin said:


> 200 pages into the fifth book, and still haven't seen an episode. You guys are giving me a hankering  but if I start now my brain will shit itself for want of continuity. Just 800 more to go haha



Watching the show at this point will give you a lot nostalgic moments, it will be a good experience.


----------



## whatupitsjoe

Also on the canceling discussion: HBO knows that have a monster on their hands, maybe not Sopranos big, but bigger than a show like Rome. It's everything Rome had plus more.

As for the future, GRRM has a development deal with HBO and is in talks to do another project based on his short stories, which took place in the GoT world 100 years before the story were watching now.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

yeah this series is HUGE, doubt it's getting canceled short of an absolute disaster


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Book 4 and 5 will be an absolute nightmare to condense for TV. The story and cast nearly doubles in size and it cuts off a little abruptly so they will have to introduce early parts from book 6. No reason to worry about it getting cancelled or surpassing the books for another while yet.

I can't believe we are half way through series 3 already.


----------



## Jackson12s

The guys that have read the books, you recommend reading them if you've seen the series?


----------



## Watty

Jackson12s said:


> The guys that have read the books, you recommend reading them if you've seen the series?



Absolutely, there's so much more in the books. Let alone the fact that it's "easier" to read the characters if you have a basis for conceptualizing them, which is easy now that they've been cast on TV.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Definitely! Don't get me wrong I love the show but it still a watered down version of an enormous story. The book gets your really in the minds of each point of view character and has so much more sub plots aswell as prophecies which are absent on the show. I would wait until this season is over and then start reading the books because there are some twists from book 2 that they haven't show yet.


----------



## Jackson12s

I'll definitely put that on my read list then, was going to get it before but ended up getting the series i'm reading now cos the TV series was going to start again haha. I can order the box set from Amazon


----------



## wankerness

THis season is starting to make me NOT want to read the books. Like, I practically cheered when the Hound won that fight at the beginning of the last ep cause I had no idea if he was going to get killed there or what. I feel like these kinds of stupid fangirl moments would be decreased if I knew what was going to happen 

I'm reading the second book atm and it is giving me more background information and improving my enjoyment of the show, but that's cause it's just enriching stuff I already know about, I think I might just read the books up to where the series is or something.


----------



## flint757

Yeah I find watching the movies/shows before reading the book version is usually the way to go. I typically get very disappointed in movies when I've read the books because they typically pale in comparison, but if you take it in reverse it goes from good to great instead of great to good.


----------



## Watty

In this episode especially, sounds like they're dropping hints about books 6 and 7 directly from Martin....


----------



## wankerness

Another solid episode, not as good as the last couple but still excellent. Sansa is SUCH a fucking dipshit, I don't feel bad for her at all, maybe marrying Tyrrion will allow some of his intelligence to rub off on her. God she's terrible, that scene with her and Loras was pain. I haven't really felt bad for her at all this season, she was starting to grate through all her martyrdom in season 2 but this season she's just been even dumber.

The scene between Tywin and whatshername Tyrell Diana Rigg was the best part, obviously. 

I was enraged by the


Spoiler



Ros death, partly because Joffrey is just such a goddam little shit and I was still fond of her and partly because it seemed like it was probably going to end up being a throwaway scene that may not be mentioned again. She was a pretty important character despite the lack of screentime just with how she was sort of a window for the audience (since she was a "regular person" who was around all the important characters). I'll miss the character and that was just such an absolutely hideous visual with her death. I had thought Joffrey was getting reigned in a bit by Margaery, GUESS NOT. I will have to look for this stuff in the book when I finally read it, I know Ros was not in the books so I'm wondering if he's less of a psychotic shithead since this scene wouldn't have been there.



EDIT: Just read this comment and thought it was a good summation of my feelings on Littlefinger, he's such a rotten bastard this season and I hope he gets his soon. It was in response to someone wondering how someone could see him as a morally grey character instead of simply evil.

"At least early on, when the whorehouse seemed even classier (e.g. before we saw him threaten his whores ruthlessly, and uh,


Spoiler



had them sent to their terrible death


), I think the "classy" whorehouse was a potential basis for some sympathy. His whores were likeable, and it seemed like they basically liked him.

Next to these lords and ladies and kings and queens, knights and aged bureaucrats, this Littlefinger guy was a relatively blue-collar guy who got his hands dirty in the business world, and who was carrying a torch for a lovely queen. A real striver, with the odds against him!

A snooty pimp even then, and seeds of his soul-blinding ambition were probably on display, but it wasn't crazy to see him at least a little "gray", in so far as his infatuation with a lady beyond his station."

EDIT 2: I realized I forgot to mention the Melisandre stuff. A lot of that was really great, especially whatshisname's explanation of how his faith became real. Melisandre is really becoming a lot more interesting this season, I thought she was kind of lame last season but I'm really interested to see where she's taking things now.


----------



## Xaios

Agreed, solid for the most part, but not spectacular....


...until the last 5 minutes, which really punches you in the gut, both with how awful that world can be, and how beautiful.

BOOK SPOILER:


Spoiler



If I had to guess, it appears that Gendry is going to fill the role of Edric Storm in this iteration, i.e. he's going to be rescued by Davos Seaworth. It's a good way to keep him in the cast for a little longer, as in the book he just kinda disappears once he joins the Brotherhood.


----------



## flexkill

Good episode ....not great. I wanted more.


----------



## gunshow86de

Sansa and Loras trying to make small talk was hilarious. She's so clueless. No heterosexual man gets that excited about planning a wedding. I love the Queen of Thorns' line, "he's a sword swallower, through and through."  

The ending was very strong. Christian Bale's Batman Littlefinger's "Chaos is a Ladder" speech at the end was great.


----------



## pink freud

gunshow86de said:


> The ending was very strong. Christian Bale's Batman Littlefinger's "Chaos is a Ladder" speech at the end was great.



Yeah, up until that point I thought that they had gotten lazy with their title (usually the titles have more than one depth to them).


----------



## BIG ND SWEATY

gunshow86de said:


> Sansa and Loras trying to make small talk was hilarious. She's so clueless. No heterosexual man gets that excited about planning a wedding. I love the Queen of Thorns' line, "he's a sword swallower, through and through."



i laughed my ass off at both of those scenes, especially the whole meeting between Tywin and Olenna, she's one sassy lady


----------



## Xaios

One thing I'm looking forward to in the show, and something I hope they manage to do true justice to, is a particular speech from A Feast For Crows. Even though AFFC is kind of the red-headed stepchild of the series, it has this one monologue by an ultimately minor character which is actually really moving. True, AFFC doesn't have many "moments of awesome" like the other books, but that one speech is, for me, the true high point of the series.


----------



## gunshow86de

I also liked Roose's hand-pun joke.


----------



## AliceLG

Solid episode thru and thru cool



Spoiler



I can't wait for King Snotty Prick to get killed in the most absurd and ridiculous way possible, if they keep true to the books on that one. I certainly hope so. And Littlefinger: from now on we are enemies, you and I.


----------



## gunshow86de

Spoiler



Anyone else catch the Ramsay horn blowing from this episode and match it up with "horn trolling" of Theon when he held Winterfell? They are also really making the Flayed Man sigils obvious so the non-readers can figure it out themselves. I have to wonder how Theon, who obviously knows the houses of the North, cannot figure out that he is being flayed by a Bolton.


----------



## Xaios

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else catch the Ramsay horn blowing from this episode and match it up with "horn trolling" of Theon when he held Winterfell? They are also really making the Flayed Man sigils obvious so they non-readers can figure it out themselves. I have to wonder how Theon, who obviously knows the houses of the North, cannot figure out that he is being flayed by a Bolton.





Spoiler



Yeah, the horn bit was great.

On one hand, you'd _think_ it would be obvious to him, but consider a) Theon really isn't that smart or insightful, b) he's in immense pain, so probably not thinking straight, and c) while this isn't clear in the show, in the book the Boltons in public are all "Naw dawg, we totally don't flay people anymore, that's just our sigil!" The fact that they still practice flaying is a dirty little secret of the house.


----------



## TemjinStrife

Really? In the book, it seemed like the Boltons were pretty open about it, at least with everyone "Reek" talked to.


----------



## Xaios

TemjinStrife said:


> Really? In the book, it seemed like the Boltons were pretty open about it, at least with everyone "Reek" talked to.





Spoiler



They're open about it _with other members of the house_, as well as their victims (as it's presumed that their victims either a) won't survive, or b) will end up so whipped that they wouldn't dare tell anyone else). According to the literature, they publicly abandoned the practice of flaying 1000 years prior. Whispers that they still practice it have never amounted to more than rumours (although obviously true).

"Reek" probably talked about it because he knew no one would put stock in what he said.


----------



## TemjinStrife

Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> They're open about it _with other members of the house_, as well as their victims (as it's presumed that their victims either a) won't survive, or b) will end up so whipped that they wouldn't dare tell anyone else). According to the literature, they publicly abandoned the practice of flaying 1000 years prior. Whispers that they still practice it have never amounted to more than rumours (although obviously true).
> 
> "Reek" probably talked about it because he knew no one would put stock in what he said.



BOOKSPOILERS


Spoiler



They did mail strips of skin to a bunch of people. I'm not sure that's being "secretive." They also sent a note to Jon Snow regarding skinning some spearwives. Also not "secretive."


----------



## wankerness

Goddam, some of these spoilers are a minefield for us non-book readers. I just totally fucked one thing up for myself by reading that alicelg post on the last page. I thought it was safe cause the first sentence said something about episode!

Btw, Xaios is a hero for marking his posts as bookspoilers. <3


----------



## Xaios

TemjinStrife said:


> BOOKSPOILERS
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> They did mail strips of skin to a bunch of people. I'm not sure that's being "secretive." They also sent a note to Jon Snow regarding skinning some spearwives. Also not "secretive."



BOOK SPOILERS


Spoiler



The difference, though, is who's in power now in the book universe by the time they start doing it publicly. They hid the practice before because they feared retribution from the Starks, who were a) the wardens of the North, and b) honorable beyond reason. Now that the Boltons are the wardens of the North, they can do as they please in the open again.


----------



## Danukenator

People, they are marking these things as spoilers. If you don't want stuff spoiled, don't read them.


----------



## wankerness

Danukenator said:


> People, they are marking these things as spoilers. If you don't want stuff spoiled, don't read them.



In the thread about the tv show unspecified spoilers should be assumed to be about the tv show especially since there's a book thread also on this forum! I'm not complaining about the marked-as-book ones just the unmarked ones, since people also SPOILER everything that happened in the last episode for some reason. 

This is a pretty unique situation where there's a TV show and a book series that are so far off from each other in terms of what happened to each other so I can't come up with any clever illustrations of similar ways things could be ruined that would make book readers empathize.  The AVclub sure has had to go to insane lengths, they have separate threads for every episode for book readers and non-book readers and just mod the shit out of the non-readers one, if anything at all even hints at anything that hasn't been mentioned in the tv show yet it gets deleted. They must have several full-time mods there or something.


----------



## soliloquy

i just finished the first season...

i have to say, i dont see the hype. people are calling this the best show ever and blah blah blah...its good. great production. great CGIs (FAR better than hollywood!!!). great visuals and cinematography...but the story doesn't make me want to watch more. i'm just watching it to finish it, but never through out the first season was i like 'OMG! I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!'

my friends are saying it builds up kinda slow....

and the only parts that interested me in the first season they didn't really show a whole lot of. for one, the white walkers, and second the khal drogo tribe. great way to end it, but even then...i was expecting more.

maybe my expectations were raised too high by my friends and Sherlock (last great show i watched and now i'm comparing its gripping story and script and pace with everything i watch, regardless of the genre)...

i'm not saying the show is bad. i'm just saying its WAY over rated and its lacking 'something'. not sure what that something is


also, for anyone liking the political story line with the show, you may enjoy a show called 'borgia'. not 'the borgias' just 'borgia'.


----------



## petereanima

soliloquy said:


> i'm not saying the show is bad. i'm just saying its WAY over rated and its lacking 'something'. not sure what that something is



that "something" is "sticking to the story provided by the books". that's what is missing.


----------



## Basti

I love the tags at the bottom of this thread


----------



## wankerness

soliloquy said:


> i just finished the first season...
> 
> i have to say, i dont see the hype. people are calling this the best show ever and blah blah blah...its good. great production. great CGIs (FAR better than hollywood!!!). great visuals and cinematography...but the story doesn't make me want to watch more. i'm just watching it to finish it, but never through out the first season was i like 'OMG! I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!'
> 
> my friends are saying it builds up kinda slow....
> 
> and the only parts that interested me in the first season they didn't really show a whole lot of. for one, the white walkers, and second the khal drogo tribe. great way to end it, but even then...i was expecting more.
> 
> maybe my expectations were raised too high by my friends and Sherlock (last great show i watched and now i'm comparing its gripping story and script and pace with everything i watch, regardless of the genre)...
> 
> i'm not saying the show is bad. i'm just saying its WAY over rated and its lacking 'something'. not sure what that something is
> 
> 
> also, for anyone liking the political story line with the show, you may enjoy a show called 'borgia'. not 'the borgias' just 'borgia'.



I didn't like the first season much the first time I saw it, but I liked it enough to watch the second season, which I enjoyed quite a bit. Then I went back and rewatched the first season and thought it was the best thing ever. The issue with the first watch was just that there were too many characters for me to get a handle on what they're like until the season's half over. The characters are very well-drawn and it doesn't spend a lot of time on introductions and what-not so it works much better once you're familiar with them, I guess. There are so many plotlines also that some of them don't seem to be going anywhere until you've seen what comes in the next season, since most of them don't adhere to the standard rules of TV where there must be an arc for every character that is contained in the season.


----------



## gunshow86de

'Game Of Thrones' IRL: Arya Is The Fastest-Rising Baby Name For Girls

Awesome.


----------



## soliloquy

i'll still be watching the next few seasons, but there isn't really anything that hooks me to it. maybe it'll come as i can see where the story is going. but i guess i was looking for some sort of a pay-off at the end of book one, and then another pay off at the end of book 2 and so forth. maybe the pay off is at the end of the entire series


----------



## Mexi

soliloquy said:


> i'll still be watching the next few seasons, but there isn't really anything that hooks me to it. maybe it'll come as i can see where the story is going. but i guess i was looking for some sort of a *pay-off* at the end of book one, and then another *pay off* at the end of book 2 and so forth. maybe the *pay off* is at the end of the entire series



you shouldn't feel the need to get some sort of "pay off" when you watch GoT. it's a fantasy show: you're either drawn to the narrative, story, characters or you're not. Honestly, I found season 2 to be slower paced than the first, but I've really enjoyed the show either way. It may not be for everyone (and really, hype around tv shows is rarely justified)


----------



## bigswifty

@Soliloquy,

You really do need to have a grip on all the characters to enjoy the show as it is laid out before you. Took me until season 2 to really get into the show. 

That being said, you won't find your back story on Kahl Drogo's tribe or the white walkers in the show. Maybe in the books, I couldn't say just yet, but there is so much ground to cover that the show simply cannot invest the time into those things. Keep in mind that the show is really based on the dynasties of 4 families, the Starks, Targaryens, Lannisters and Baratheons. There are other families which play huge roles as well, obviously, but the story line will almost always cater to story arcs that relate to those main families. 

Keep watching, and maybe look into the lore of the series to help build a foundation on what you're watching. George R. R. Martin created a universe - it's really cool reading a timeline. 

I love me some lore


----------



## wankerness

Last episode was decent, from what I heard from "BOOK READERS" it's mostly just setting up some huge shitstorm that should occur over the next few eps, but hey it was still good. Best scene was Tywin towering over Joffrey while he sat there looking incredibly meek. That little shit. I sure hope there's dire consequences for the Roz incident. Oona Chaplin has an amazing butt and I'm glad they kept it on screen for like 5 minutes.


----------



## gunshow86de

Sort of a slow start for last night's episode. Some awkward exchanges and "rom-com" moments. The ending was strong and overall it was pretty good. Next week's should be good, and of course episode 9 is THE episode of the series (so far). 

Also, first person to find a Talisa "attack, attack" .gif and post the link (with NSFW tags, of course) is my new hero.


----------



## Xaios

wankerness said:


> Last episode was decent, from what I heard from "BOOK READERS" it's mostly just setting up some huge shitstorm that should occur over the next few eps, but hey it was still good. Best scene was Tywin towering over Joffrey while he sat there looking incredibly meek. That little shit. I sure hope there's dire consequences for the Roz incident. Oona Chaplin has an amazing butt and I'm glad they kept it on screen for like 5 minutes.



A shitstorm is coming, of that you can be sure. 

I didn't really get the sense that Tywin dominated Joffrey like he has practically every other character. Sure, he was imposing, but I think he also realizes that Joffrey is the one person that he can't be *completely* blunt with, because Joffrey is the one person who a) has the power to make him regret it, and b) is crazy enough to put it to use. To me, that scene gave me the impression that they were kind of sizing each other up, not quite certain of how to dance around each other.

And yes, they certainly did manage to emphasize Oona Chaplins's... finer qualities.  The two girls in Theon's scene were easy on the eyes as well.

I certainly get the sense that just about everyone watching the show who said a) that they'd never like Jaime, or b) that they'd never feel sorry for Theon are beginning to second-guess those notions.


----------



## Jackson12s

Really starting to like Jaime after hating him :/


----------



## Scattered Messiah

This is exactly what I love about the books (and the series subseqently):
the way he makes characters change and evolve due to the challenges they face, while still letting every character have a sense of "deepness" and it's own individuality.
Normally, in such a "broad" story, I find the identity of the characters not strong enough to really get on with them (they start blurring, you forget plotlines and their interests, etc) - however here this is not the case (OK! except Sansa, whom I really hated a long while, but even she's beginning to evolve into a very interesting person later on)

the fact that the plot is really huge but nevertheless there is always something interesting about every line and every moment (and if it's just to see what shitstorm is gonna come up next), and one never knows exactly what might happen next.
Plus, ofc the (imho) great integration of fantasy elements into a very detailled middle age style world, without the fantasy part dominating other story telling devices (conspiracies, emotion, character development and interaction)

However atm I see the series more as a way to get over the gap to the next book - stuff is getting more and more interesting .... AAARGH THE WAIIT!!!

Edit:
@ shitstorm ... you'd bet! there will be huge things happening on different places, very excited to see how they make this work in the series


----------



## Watty

For those who haven't read the books...do so. I know they look intimidating in their girth, but having the casts' faces to use as a visualization of the characters will make things a lot more straightforward in getting into the written material.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Honestly, the books are so engrossing that you don't even really notice/think about how goddamned huge they are. The pages fly by.

Well, except when GRR insists on describing in minute detail every fucking thing every fucking character ever eats. Those parts I eventually started kinda tuning out .

To give a vague idea of how long it takes to get through the books, I started reading them from the very beginning after the end of season 2 of the show, and was finished with all of them a few months before season 3 even started. I didn't spend every waking moment reading, either. I'd usually just read a couple chapters after crawling into bed at night, with the occasional multi-hour read-fest on a Saturday or Sunday.


----------



## Watty

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I'd usually just read a couple chapters after crawling into bed at night



And before you know it...it's 4am and you have to be at work by 7...

The only thing that really stopped me from doing this every night was the fact that there were some characters' chapters that I just did not want to read. Sometimes the segmented storyline really bites the reader in the ass with imposed cliffhangers, but then again, GRRM pulls it off better than most of the other authors I've read.


----------



## Dommak89

So to all the book readers out there: How many books are there, and how many are still to come and what does that mean for the TV show? I have heard they split a book into two seasons?! Eventually I'm going to read the books anyways, but I'm so hooked to the show that I really like to know how many more seasons are going to come.


----------



## petereanima

Dommak89 said:


> So to all the book readers out there: How many books are there, and how many are still to come and what does that mean for the TV show? I have heard they split a book into two seasons?! Eventually I'm going to read the books anyways, but I'm so hooked to the show that I really like to know how many more seasons are going to come.



5 books are out, 2 more (at least that's the current status, may change) to come.

Book 1 = Season 1; Book 2 = Season 2; Book 3 = Season 3 and 4. 

I'm not sure how they will do with book#4, I don't think they will just make 1-2 seasons out of it and then go on with book#5, I am guessing that they will merge book 4 and 5 into a few seasons (2 at the absolute least (!!), and imho that's already not enough...but everything else would be ridiculous).


----------



## sakeido

books 4 & 5 get two seasons and the story will be re-organized to avoid the characters just not appearing in a season. still going to be a pretty weak couple of seasons, imo. get ready for more POV characters.


----------



## wankerness




----------



## gunshow86de

Time for SSO's own GIF of Thrones?


----------



## pink freud

Book spoiler:


Spoiler



I'm calling it now. Tywin will hang Shae with that chain as he promised (hang the next whore I find in your bed) and Tyrion will kill Tywin for it. I think this is more feasible given how the show has gone, vs how the book plays out.


----------



## Watty

Edit: Page ninja'd....


----------



## Dommak89

pink freud said:


> Book spoiler:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm calling it now. Tywin will hang Shae with that chain as he promised (hang the next whore I find in your bed) and Tyrion will kill Tywin for it. I think this is more feasible given how the show has gone, vs how the book plays out.



I knew it was a spoiler, I read the first words out of curiosity and stopped. Too much information. Fuck curiosity!!


----------



## petereanima

gunshow86de said:


> Time for SSO's own GIF of Thrones?


----------



## crg123

Random but does anyone else love the way they say "stupid"? They say it ALOT and idk what it is about it but I just love it.


----------



## Jackson12s




----------



## Sofos

Jackson12s said:


>



He's a Leafs fan... that explains why he knows nothing


----------



## Xaios

SoldiersOfFilth said:


> He's a Leafs fan... that explains why he knows nothing



Beat me to it.


----------



## flexkill

The Leafs can never get over the wall either!


----------



## gunshow86de

Jackson12s said:


>



That caption is inaccurate.


----------



## MailMan

pink freud said:


> Book spoiler:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm calling it now. Tywin will hang Shae with that chain as he promised (hang the next whore I find in your bed) and Tyrion will kill Tywin for it. I think this is more feasible given how the show has gone, vs how the book plays out.


Now that you mention it, that seems perfectly possible...

Book spoiler:


Spoiler



I really hope though that they keep Tywin's last sentence from the book ("Wherever whores go."). Would be awesome.


----------



## pink freud

Well, a wedding that reached "The Office" levels of awkwardness and Cersei turned up her bitch level to AWESOME.


----------



## gunshow86de

Drunk Tyrion at the wedding was fantastic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Jack Gleeson plays Joffrey to perfection. I've never despised a fictional character so much.

Sam left his Dragonglass dagger behind. Hmmm, the creature that shattered my long sword with its bare hand was exploded by this dagger........... better leave it on the ground. 
Book Spoiler:


Spoiler



I think the writers left it intentionally (well, obviously) so that when they meet Coldhands, it makes more sense when Sam doesn't immediately stab him with the Dragonglass.



Waiting 2 weeks for the next episode is going to be tough. Especially knowing it is _THE_ episode of the series.


----------



## soliloquy

just finished the second season. must say the second was MUCH better than the first (at least in my eyes). must faster pace, so much more happening, well explained as well. 

loving the Imp's character along with arya, and kalaseei.


----------



## flexkill

I was just going to say....I don't think I have ever wanted to literally strangle a character from a show or movie like I so much do with Joffrey!!! I hate that little sh!t!!!!!


----------



## gunshow86de

WARNING: BOOK SPOILER .GIF

**DO NOT CLICK IF YOU HAVEN'T READ A STORM OF SWORDS IN ITS ENTIRETY**

Now, if you have read it, enjoy this hilarious .gif to get you through the off-week. 

Seriously, this is a huge spoiler.


----------



## tacotiklah

flexkill said:


> I was just going to say....I don't think I have ever wanted to literally strangle a character from a show or movie like I so much do with Joffrey!!! I hate that little sh!t!!!!!



That little bastard is like Ed Gein with a crown. The way he approaches his rule scares the shit out of me honestly.


----------



## soliloquy

maybe some of you can clarify something. perhaps i'm overlooking something, or looking too deep into it...or maybe something was lost in translation between the book and the show.

SPOILER if you're not on the 3rd season!!!



jon snow goes north of the wall to look for his uncle. from the top of the wall, he grabs some sort of an elevator as he had his horse with him from the south. 

season 3, episode 6, jon snow et al climbs the wall using his ice-pick and climbing gear...why? why not use the same elevator or same path he took to scale down the wall?


----------



## crg123

Spoiler



Oh this ice beast that exploded my sword when he touched it blew up when I stabbed him with this object.... I'm going to leave it. Wtf Sam



oh and POST 888


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

soliloquy said:


> maybe some of you can clarify something. perhaps i'm overlooking something, or looking too deep into it...or maybe something was lost in translation between the book and the show.
> 
> SPOILER if you're not on the 3rd season!!!
> 
> 
> 
> jon snow goes north of the wall to look for his uncle. from the top of the wall, he grabs some sort of an elevator as he had his horse with him from the south.
> 
> season 3, episode 6, jon snow et al climbs the wall using his ice-pick and climbing gear...why? why not use the same elevator or same path he took to scale down the wall?



The elevators are on the south side of the wall, and the watch uses them to scale the wall. If you want to get over the wall from the _north_ side, which is what Jon is doing in season 3 since he's coming over with a group of wildlings he infiltrated, then you have to use climbing gear to get over it the old fashioned way. I believe there's an elevator/lift system they can lower over the north side if they need to, but that can only be done from the top of the wall, and the watch isn't about to lower them for a bunch of wildlings, haha.


----------



## soliloquy

Grand Moff Tim said:


> The elevators are on the south side of the wall, and the watch uses them to scale the wall. If you want to get over the wall from the _north_ side, which is what Jon is doing in season 3 since he's coming over with a group of wildlings he infiltrated, then you have to use climbing gear to get over it the old fashioned way. I believe there's an elevator/lift system they can lower over the north side if they need to, but that can only be done from the top of the wall, and the watch isn't about to lower them for a bunch of wildlings, haha.



ahh, that makes total sense. 

now i'm curious about if the wall is natural (or as natural it can be to the show) or man/giant/beast made. its made of ice, thats cool...but why doesn't it melt during the 3-5 year summer?


----------



## petereanima

soliloquy said:


> now i'm curious about if the wall is natural (or as natural it can be to the show) or man/giant/beast made. its made of ice, thats cool...but why doesn't it melt during the 3-5 year summer?



It's said that the wall was built by Bran The Builder (Brandon Stark, who also built Winterfell). Probably with the help of giants. There are also "spells" on it, not only to prevent Others and White Walkers from passing, but also to strengthen it (so it doesn't melt).


----------



## Mexi

so in other words, a wizard did it. Do not like that I have to wait an extra week for the next episode


----------



## gunshow86de

They didn't want to go head-to-head with the AD season 4 release.


----------



## Basti

Mexi said:


> so in other words, a wizard did it. Do not like that I have to wait an extra week for the next episode



when in doubt, wizards.


----------



## st2012

I am absolutely having withdrawals right now...


----------



## flexkill

st2012 said:


> I am absolutely having withdrawals right now...



I know, dammit!


----------



## gunshow86de

*Book Spoiler*


----------



## flint757

Is that a legit page from the books.


----------



## gunshow86de

flint757 said:


> Is that a legit page from the books.



Yes. Hodor's chapters are deep, ponderous, reflections on the human condition.

Also, MFW Hodor isn't actually his name.


----------



## MFB

I'm 3/4 of the way through book one and just picked up Clash of Kings the other day. Kills me how much of the internet I have to stay off of to avoid spoilers


----------



## flexkill




----------



## Watty

MFB said:


> I'm 3/4 of the way through book one and just picked up Clash of Kings the other day. Kills me how much of the internet I have to stay off of to avoid spoilers



That's what happens when a good thing becomes a fad, everyone's involved....everywhere. I hate that it's become so big with people who won't ever touch the books (which is where the "magic" really is), but then again....I can't hate the fact that they decided it was marketable enough to spend 10 hours per book on the screen.


----------



## flint757

Why would you bother hating people/things that have no affect on you or anyone else for that matter. 

If the books are good, the show is good and you are up to date on both (so no issue with spoilers) there is little reason for you to be bothered with other peoples inclinations.


----------



## Watty

flint757 said:


> Why would you bother hating people/things that have no affect on you or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> If the books are good, the show is good and you are up to date on both (so no issue with spoilers) there is little reason for you to be bothered with other peoples inclinations.



The whole fad that's developed around it as a result of the screen time irks me. I don't like the fact that great work tends only to be noticed when the medium is easily digestible. Same thing with music; aren't you ever the slightest bit bothered by the fact that people don't listen to metal in general because it tends not to be easy to listen to and sing along with?


----------



## flexkill

Watty said:


> Same thing with music; aren't you ever the slightest bit bothered by the fact that people don't listen to metal in general because it tends not to be easy to listen to and sing along with?


Not at all, just shows them how much more highly intelligent I am!!!  joking.


----------



## st2012

Oh god, my wife (who has never read the books) is so upset right now...


----------



## flint757

Watty said:


> The whole fad that's developed around it as a result of the screen time irks me. I don't like the fact that great work tends only to be noticed when the medium is easily digestible. Same thing with music; aren't you ever the slightest bit bothered by the fact that people don't listen to metal in general because it tends not to be easy to listen to and sing along with?



Looking at things that way is just gonna leave you grumpy.  The only way for you to be truly satisfied would be for the show to be niche or not exist at all and in both cases that would suck. The show is pretty awesome and it is great that so many people watch it.

I like books, I like movies and I like music. I listen to prog, tech, death, thrash, grunge, pop punk, country, pop, classic rock, R&B, rap, etc. I don't find pop or other genres 'inferior' to another and making catchy 'digestible' music is an art in itself. Tons of pop music sucks, but so does a descent amount of metal.


----------



## Khoi

As a non-reader, these are my thoughts on the last episode:




Spoiler



WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK


----------



## pink freud

Watty said:


> The whole fad that's developed around it as a result of the screen time irks me. I don't like the fact that great work tends only to be noticed when the medium is easily digestible. Same thing with music; aren't you ever the slightest bit bothered by the fact that people don't listen to metal in general because it tends not to be easy to listen to and sing along with?



Think of it this way: Without the TV show a vast number of people would be completely unaware of ASOIAF. Now, millions of people have a reader's digest understanding of the story, and of those millions many will go on to read the books (I am in this camp, better to see the vid before reading the book, makes the book seem that much greater rather than the vid seem that much worse).

Would you begrudge those who have never had ice cream from having Dairy Queen, just because it isn't gelato?


----------



## Watty

flint757 said:


> Tons of pop music sucks, but so does a descent amount of metal.



All else aside, touche. 



pink freud said:


> Think of it this way: Without the TV show a vast number of people would be completely unaware of ASOIAF. Now, millions of people have a reader's digest understanding of the story, and of those millions many will go on to read the books (I am in this camp, better to see the vid before reading the book, makes the book seem that much greater rather than the vid seem that much worse).
> 
> Would you begrudge those who have never had ice cream from having Dairy Queen, just because it isn't gelato?



Fair point with the ice cream analogy...I could never be mad when ice cream's involved.



Spoiler



Also, where's our god-damn CGI wolf man?


----------



## Watty

And Khoi.

Don't worry.



Spoiler



There's hope.


----------



## Khoi

I'm going to pick up A Feast for Crows. Do you think that's an okay place to pickup if I haven't read any of the others? Or are the others absolutely necessary?

I know there are a lot of differences and some new characters introduced in the main series, but I'm not too critical on those details. I just must know what happens!


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Khoi, at this point, the show is only about halfway through A Storm of Swords. You'll be way lost if you start at A Feast For Crows. Hell, I started Crows as soon as I finished Swords, and I was still a bit lost.


----------



## Watty

HaMMerHeD said:


> Khoi, at this point, the show is only about halfway through A Storm of Swords. You'll be way lost if you start at A Feast For Crows. Hell, I started Crows as soon as I finished Swords, and I was still a bit lost.



This. Let alone the fact that Dance would be even worse...lol

If you absolutely can't wait...read the cliffs' notes on book three somewhere.


----------



## pink freud

Khoi said:


> I'm going to pick up A Feast for Crows. Do you think that's an okay place to pickup if I haven't read any of the others? Or are the others absolutely necessary?
> 
> I know there are a lot of differences and some new characters introduced in the main series, but I'm not too critical on those details. I just must know what happens!



From what I can tell it really depends on if you care more for the entire tangled web or more for individual story lines. I'd start at the beginning, or perhaps the second book, seeing as most people seem to think season 1 and book 1 were very true to each other.


----------



## Khoi

Wow, I didn't even realize there was still half the story to tell in A Storm of Swords. I think I'll just start there. I honestly care more about the "overall story"; I'm not a huge reader, but I've been meaning to start somewhere. I can always read back at notes on A Clash of Kings.


----------



## Watty

Khoi said:


> Wow, I didn't even realize there was still half the story to tell in A Storm of Swords. I think I'll just start there. I honestly care more about the "overall story"; I'm not a huge reader, but I've been meaning to start somewhere.



Well, if you're not really dedicated, you might end up at the cliffs' notes anyways. I love these books and am a very avid reader, but there were definitely times when I was like "Really; another Bran chapter?!" It's hard to focus your attention on a completely different area when you read....significantly easier in the TV medium.


----------



## HaMMerHeD

GRRM interposes those less exciting chapters specifically to draw out the suspense for what you *really* want to read about. For example...I was disappointed with how they showed the Arya+Sandor at The Twins thing tonight.


----------



## Watty

I know, but still...

Significantly advanced spoiler below.



Spoiler



I hate where he took Bran's character, so I guess that's part of the problem. Dragons? Cool. Magic at the behest of Gods? Eh, but cool. Some weird entity teaching the basics of the matrix insofar as possession is concerned? Too outside of everything else. I think he took the warg thing too far in this regard.

Also, I found the Arya interaction to be pretty good. Foreshadowed a bit of her future, despite her not being able to follow through with Sandor in particular.


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Watty said:


> I know, but still...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> (I hate where he took Bran's character, so I guess that's part of the problem).
> 
> Also, I found the Arya interaction to be pretty good. Foreshadowed a bit of her future, despite her not being able to follow through with Sandor in particular.



True enough.



Spoiler



But Arya...awesome. My favorite character. (But I'm a single dad of a 9-year old girl...so I guess I have a fondness for that character automatically) I was hoping they'd end the episode with Sandor's axe swinging and whacking her in the head....like in the book.


----------



## Xaios

"Tonight on Game of Thrones: the producers get some much-needed relief for the casting budget."



And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why they call it The Red Wedding.


----------



## wankerness

That was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen on TV, jesus christ. The Ned Stark thing just made me rage but this was wayyyyyy worse. It wasn't even anger or sadness since I wasn't particularly attached to any of those characters, just like some kind of numb horror. That was incredibly intense. I really do think a lot of people are going to stop watching cause of this, I guess kudos to the producers for going for it and not flinching AT ALL when it came to showing things like


Spoiler



a pregnant woman being stabbed repeatedly in the gut


 but I hope it doesn't have repercussions down the line with dwindling audiences and stuff.


----------



## wankerness

Khoi said:


> Wow, I didn't even realize there was still half the story to tell in A Storm of Swords. I think I'll just start there. I honestly care more about the "overall story"; I'm not a huge reader, but I've been meaning to start somewhere. I can always read back at notes on A Clash of Kings.



I've consistently heard that as a tv show watcher you have to start reading at book 2 at the latest cause of how much got changed in there and the repercussions that it has in book/season 3. Apparently you'd pretty regularly encounter things that make no sense in book 3 if you didn't read book 2? I'm not sure, I'm only about 2/3 of the way through book 2 and so far it's basically identical to the show.


----------



## Xaios

Also...

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."


----------



## Watty

wankerness said:


> That was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen on TV, jesus christ. The Ned Stark thing just made me rage but this was wayyyyyy worse. It wasn't even anger or sadness since I wasn't particularly attached to any of those characters, just like some kind of numb horror. That was incredibly intense. I really do think a lot of people are going to stop watching cause of this, I guess kudos to the producers for going for it and not flinching AT ALL when it came to showing things like
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> a pregnant woman being stabbed repeatedly in the gut
> 
> 
> but I hope it doesn't have repercussions down the line with dwindling audiences and stuff.



Dude, don't even worry about it. And, oddly enough, they refrained from showing the worst part of what they did in the books.

Edit: Not necessarily worse than what you've spoilered, but still bad in terms of the overall mood.


----------



## Xaios

Watty said:


> Dude, don't even worry about it. And, oddly enough, they refrained from showing the worst part of what they did in the books.



Ah, but there's a whole more episode to go. 

Reading the reactions on the internet is hilarious. Best one so far:

"Don't ever name your child after a character played by Sean Bean."


----------



## Watty

Xaios said:


> Ah, but there's a whole more episode to go.
> 
> Reading the reactions on the internet is hilarious. Best one so far:
> 
> "Don't ever name your child after a character played by Sean Bean."



True, I suppose they could still show that.

I always liked the fact that people thought Everytime I Die named themselves after Sean's unfortunate habit of taking on dying roles.


----------



## Metal_Webb

That episode.

On a lighter note:

http://i.imgur.com/hzPfO.gif

I laughed. Felt terrible. Laughed again.


----------



## Kiwimetal101

Ive never read the books...

*HOLY ....!!*

Tonights episode gave me bigger feels than the end of breaking bad....

EDIT: Legit I havent moved out of my chair since it finished.... I have no idea what to do with myself right now....


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Best not to get too attached to any GRRM character.


----------



## petereanima

attn. spoiler for the latest episode

http://i.imgur.com/9Qs06UD.gif


----------



## sakeido

Hated the episode. I knew exactly what was going to happen and they did a great job with it in some respects, but showing it like that was ....ing ridiculous. Way too over the top. Will never recommend this show to anyone now. 



Watty said:


> Dude, don't even worry about it. And, oddly enough, they refrained from showing the worst part of what they did in the books.



uhhh yeah, in the books


Spoiler



Robb's wife wasn't pregnant, and wasn't stabbed in the belly a dozen times "on screen". She lived.


the show was far worse than the book


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Spoiler



I think Cat stark sawing through the throat of a young girl (8 or 9 was it?) might have been worse than what they actually did.


----------



## sakeido

HaMMerHeD said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I think Cat stark sawing through the throat of a young girl (8 or 9 was it?) might have been worse than what they actually did.





Spoiler



that was Walder Frey's wife, of childbearing age. So not that young. That didn't happen in the book either, she killed one of the Frey sons.


----------



## Xaios

sakeido said:


> Hated the episode. I knew exactly what was going to happen and they did a great job with it in some respects, but showing it like that was ....ing ridiculous. Way too over the top. Will never recommend this show to anyone now.
> 
> uhhh yeah, in the books
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Robb's wife wasn't pregnant, and wasn't stabbed in the belly a dozen times "on screen". She lived.
> 
> 
> the show was far worse than the book



Book spoiler:


Spoiler



The interesting thing is that the show has now indicated how important Jeyne Westerling will be to overall plot. Or, rather, how unimportant it turns out she'll be, unless the book diverges SIGNIFICANTLY from the show at some point. If nothing else, at least it puts _some_ speculation to rest for book readers.



Can't say I agree with your assessment of the episode. Was it over the top? Eh, maybe. But it was also a punch to the gut in the same way as "Baelor," _especially_ to people who haven't read the books (the reactions on Twitter and Facebook are proof enough of that). Considering the magnitude of the event in the book, they had their work cut out for them wringing maximum impact in the show. I'd say they succeeded brilliantly, though.

Besides, you don't like anything.


----------



## sakeido

It was artless and disgusting ... great job setting up the


Spoiler



Boltons and Freys


 as the massive villains they are, but it'll be funny to watch TV audiences squirm all through season 5 and 6 when everything grinds to a screeching, boring halt. and seriously, how is that not over the top? Never seen anything like that before, ever. That was some soviet bloc snuff film bullshit right there.


----------



## gunshow86de

Did other things happen in the episode besides the RW? I couldn't focus knowing what was coming. And it was still worse than I expected (in a good way). That was so brutal. 

On a lighter note.....







Prediction for next episode (w/ book spoilers):


Spoiler



Next week's episode will open with the Robb+Greywind wolfman and Catelyn being dumped in the river.


----------



## pink freud

sakeido said:


> It was artless and disgusting ... great job setting up the
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Boltons and Freys
> 
> 
> as the massive villains they are, but it'll be funny to watch TV audiences squirm all through season 5 and 6 when everything grinds to a screeching, boring halt. and seriously, how is that not over the top? Never seen anything like that before, ever. That was some soviet bloc snuff film bullshit right there.



Artless?

What about


Spoiler



Cat's gradual realization of what's about to happen, the song "The Rains of Castamere" being played after the doors are shut, Rob's deconstruction from a king to a boy crying out for his mother or Cat's catatonia after (she believes) seeing her last son slaughtered. Arya's realization of what happened to her family as she saw Grey Wind killed, after traveling so far and losing so many people she cares about?



This was death, horror and misery at its most artful, not at its most artless.


----------



## sakeido

pink freud said:


> Artless?
> 
> What about
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Cat's gradual realization of what's about to happen, the song "The Rains of Castamere" being played after the doors are shut, Rob's deconstruction from a king to a boy crying out for his mother or Cat's catatonia after (she believes) seeing her last son slaughtered. Arya's realization of what happened to her family as she saw Grey Wind killed, after traveling so far and losing so many people she cares about?
> 
> 
> 
> This was death, horror and misery at its most artful, not at its most artless.



hey sorry so nobody else is bothered by


Spoiler



a woman getting graphically aborted by being stabbed in the stomach like twenty times?


that just isn't a big deal? Okay great!


----------



## tacotiklah

***possible spoiler***
http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q771/jessicametal69/redwedding_zpscc118619.jpg

(link only, since it may contain spoilers)


Edit: Goddamn it, gunshow beat me to it. That's what I get for not reading the thread.


----------



## pink freud

sakeido said:


> hey sorry so nobody else is bothered by
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> a woman getting graphically aborted by being stabbed in the stomach like twenty times?
> 
> 
> that just isn't a big deal? Okay great!



Of _course_ we're bothered by it. Not to Darwin it all up, but I'm bothered by genocide too, but I don't consider Schindler's List to be artless because it includes it...

Artless violence (aka torture porn) is when violence and gore is shown simply to have it. Everything that happened at the wedding drove the plot and the drama, not simply happened to show blood.


----------



## sakeido

that was there simply to be there. you coulda gotten that point across very easily in another way. 


Spoiler



musicians procure crossbows, everybody gets shot. Robb, stuck like a pincushion, turns around to discover that Talisa got the same treatment. same end result without the Eli Roth-esque bloodlust


and Schindler's List actually happened, and so is probably one of the worst comparisons you could have come up with


----------



## pink freud

sakeido said:


> that was there simply to be there. you coulda gotten that point across very easily in another way.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> musicians procure crossbows, everybody gets shot. Robb, stuck like a pincushion, turns around to discover that Talisa got the same treatment. same end result without the Eli Roth-esque bloodlust
> 
> 
> and Schindler's List actually happened, and so is probably one of the worst comparisons you could have come up with



The fiction/non-fiction status of an event doesn't have any bearing on how it is shown on film.

I don't think you understand the significance of how


Spoiler



Talisa was murdered. That speech Frey gave to her earlier? It wasn't just about him saying he knew she had an attractive body under those robes. When he says he knows what a woman hides under those robes he is referencing his many wives who bore him children. He _knows_ she is pregnant. Having her stabbed in the womb before Robb gets killed is a message, "This is what you abandoned my family for, this is what should have been mine, so I will make you watch as I take it from YOU."


If you wish to be insulated from the adult nature in which this story plays you should probably wait and see if it ever plays on regular TV like SATC did.


----------



## sakeido

pink freud said:


> If you wish to be insulated from the adult nature in which this story plays you should probably wait and see if it ever plays on regular TV like SATC did.



 uhhh.... yeah


----------



## Xaios

Honestly Sakeido, I don't get what your beef is with it. Whether or not it "actually happened" or is fictionalized has no bearing on whether or not it should "be allowed" to be an incredibly violent affair. Besides, it's not like certain elements from famous war movies aren't fictionalized themselves for dramatic effect. If it's okay to take artistic license to maximize the impact of an on-screen battle based on a real event, why is it not okay to do the same with a fictionalized event? It's a double standard, and it doesn't make sense to boot.

But also, for the record, the Red Wedding bears similarity to an actual historical event, the Black Dinner.



sakeido said:


> that was there simply to be there. you coulda gotten that point across very easily in another way.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> musicians procure crossbows, everybody gets shot. Robb, stuck like a pincushion, turns around to discover that Talisa got the same treatment. same end result without the Eli Roth-esque bloodlust



No way. This wouldn't have had nearly the impact. What you're describing is pretty much _the baseline_ for violence in this show, and the book. This was _The Red Wedding_. This is the passage in the book that single handedly makes you recoil in horror and proclaim "SWEET MERCIFUL CHRIST!" It's brutal and senseless and tailor made to want to curl up into a ball in the corner. THAT is what the show had to do as well, and they succeeded. Had they just done what you describe, the reaction would have been far more "eh."


----------



## hairychris

Not been watching the show but have read the books.

Currently  at some of the spoilered stuff. They have gone a bit off track, then.

BTW I know a guy who does SFX make-up on GoT, who also has a pretty brutal sense of humour. It seems that he's in the right place!


----------



## pink freud

hairychris said:


> Not been watching the show but have read the books.
> 
> Currently  at some of the spoilered stuff. They have gone a bit off track, then.
> 
> BTW I know a guy who does SFX make-up on GoT, who also has a pretty brutal sense of humour. It seems that he's in the right place!



Your mission in life is now to get him to insert a *DJENT* somewhere in the show.


----------



## gunshow86de

Anybody else catch Robb's "I've made a huge mistake?"

Possible shout out to my favorite Tumblr? Arrested Westeros


----------



## sakeido

Xaios said:


> Honestly Sakeido, I don't get what your beef is with it.



I'm just wondering when I stepped into a parallel dimension wherein people aren't really all that put out by a woman getting stabbed in the baby like 15 times. That was insanely brutal. Great entertainment, though! RIGHT?



> No way. This wouldn't have had nearly the impact. What you're describing is pretty much _the baseline_ for violence in this show, and the book. This was _The Red Wedding_. This is the passage in the book that single handedly makes you recoil in horror and proclaim "SWEET MERCIFUL CHRIST!" It's brutal and senseless and tailor made to want to curl up into a ball in the corner. THAT is what the show had to do as well, and they succeeded. Had they just done what you describe, the reaction would have been far more "eh."


Yeah actually since apparently I am no longer in the world where I was born, nobody is even talking about the first stabbing and is focused mostly on who actually died, rather than how one minor character died. There is roughly the same impact in the books, too, where the bit I'm choked about didn't happen at all. So they could have ditched the whole thing instead of flying headfirst into new realms of extremely bad taste, without affecting the reaction one bit


----------



## -42-

I don't watch the show, but as an avid book fan I have been waiting for the fan reaction to this from day one.


----------



## Mexi

sakeido said:


> I'm just wondering when I stepped into a parallel dimension wherein people aren't really all that put out by a woman getting stabbed in the baby like 15 times. That was insanely brutal. Great entertainment, though! RIGHT?



Maybe some people aren't put out by this because THERE IS MUCH WORSE OUT THERE

hell even the last Rambo movie was more excessively violent than this


Seeing babies getting pitchforked into fires and seeing rows of women/children getting mowed down into hamburger is SO MUCH more graphic than a pregnant woman being murdered. honestly, your constant return to the fact that she was pregnant seems to suggest a more personal discomfort with regards to matters of abortion, which is understandable (it's no doubt the most controversial part of the show so far). We live in a culture where we're *generally*desensitized to violence, so that probably explains the brunt of the responses here, which may come off cold or unfeeling (my own included, perhaps). At least on GoT, the purpose was to instill that sense of horror and discomfort in its viewers, and it seems they succeeded with flying colours. Is it a cheap ploy used by tv/movies? of course! but that's why people keep buying billions of dollars of "depraved" entertainment.

edit: Could the scene have been done with less violence? sure, but it would have deviated (even moreso) from the essence of the source material, which is rife with extreme violence, rape and generally uncomfortable imagery and themes. I thought it was shocking, but it almost felt like you were watching through Rob's eyes and the visceral scene made me respond emotionally, which is the goal of any artistic endeavour. If you're that put off by the violence, and can't appreciate the artistic value behind it, perhaps you should just stop watching after this season


----------



## pink freud

sakeido said:


> I'm just wondering when I stepped into a parallel dimension wherein people aren't really all that put out by a woman getting stabbed in the baby like 15 times. That was insanely brutal. Great entertainment, though! RIGHT?
> 
> 
> Yeah actually since apparently I am no longer in the world where I was born, nobody is even talking about the first stabbing and is focused mostly on who actually died, rather than how one minor character died. There is roughly the same impact in the books, too, where the bit I'm choked about didn't happen at all. So they could have ditched the whole thing instead of flying headfirst into new realms of extremely bad taste, without affecting the reaction one bit



Do yourself a favor and go look at the reaction vids on youtube. The first death seems to be getting the biggest reaction.


----------



## sakeido

Mexi said:


> If you're that put off by the violence, and can't appreciate the artistic value behind it, perhaps you should just stop watching after this season



There is no artistic value behind it except GRRM killing off a popular book fan-theory in the most depraved way possible - breaking with the book specifically to put


Spoiler



Talisa at the wedding, where in the book Catelyn asks Robb to not bring her so they don't insult Walder Frey any further, which makes absolutely perfect sense. But then she doesn't mention the pregnancy until the last minute, when she was obviously showing in the scene where she tells him she is preggers, but I guess Robb didn't notice. If Robb had known sooner, she wouldn't have been there. Never in a million years would he have brought her. But nope, as is normal for their storyline in the TV show everyone around Robb acts like a ....ing moron just to set up this scene.


and I'm pro-choice but anti-putting war crimes in my popular entertainment. After a few popular movies featuring terrorist attacks with huge body counts, I'm tempted to just switch back to watching good character dramas. Which this show basically was, anyways, until now. 

I'm interested to see how they go about things after this but I'm out after season 4 anyway. Books 4 and 5 were both godawful.. another thing that makes me lol though (book spoilers)


Spoiler



Everyone is clamoring for the Freys and Boltons to get their comeuppance. Well, guess what? They don't! Ha-ha!





pink freud said:


> Do yourself a favor and go look at the reaction vids on youtube. The first death seems to be getting the biggest reaction.



I can't, I hear the stabbing then I shut it off


----------



## Xaios

sakeido said:


> I'm just wondering when I stepped into a parallel dimension wherein people aren't really all that put out by a woman getting stabbed in the baby like 15 times. That was insanely brutal. Great entertainment, though! RIGHT?
> 
> Yeah actually since apparently I am no longer in the world where I was born, nobody is even talking about the first stabbing and is focused mostly on who actually died, rather than how one minor character died. There is roughly the same impact in the books, too, where the bit I'm choked about didn't happen at all. So they could have ditched the whole thing instead of flying headfirst into new realms of extremely bad taste, without affecting the reaction one bit



Here's the issue though. In the book, Robb isn't a POV character. While the horror is still quite effective, we're still experiencing it 2nd hand through Catlyn's eyes. That wouldn't work for television, especially with Robb getting upgraded to being a POV character in the show. And because he was a POV character, we needed a reason to care about his arc. Hence, we got Talisa being given a much larger role in the show than Jeyne Westerling had in the book. Now because Robb and Talisa had such a large part in the show, the resolution of their plotline had to have a _meaningful_ impact. Robb dying wouldn't have been enough, because we can't see it through the lens of Catlyn's point of view. If Talisa had lived, knowing that she'd be relegated to being a completely unimportant side-character would have made her arc completely pointless.

So no, doing it the same way as they had in the book would not have been nearly as meaningful or effective.

And dude, please stop trying to turn this into some sort of social commentary. It's not, and it shouldn't be.



sakeido said:


> I'm interested to see how they go about things after this but I'm out after season 4 anyway. Books 4 and 5 were both godawful.. another thing that makes me lol though



I disagree. Personally I found ADWD to be about the 3rd in the series quality-wise after A Storm of Swords and the first book. And while A Feast For Crows is the worst in the series, it's not _bad_. It actually features my two favorite moments from the entire series thus far.



sakeido said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone is clamoring for the Freys and Boltons to get their comeuppance. Well, guess what? They don't! Ha-ha!



Book spoiler:


Spoiler



They haven't *yet*. There are still two more books to go. Not to mention, one of the biggest villains of the series, Cersei, has certainly been humbled recently in the books, so it's not like it never happens.


----------



## TheDivineWing22

Game of Thrones: Red Wedding Reactions Compilation - Video


----------



## flint757

sakeido said:


> I'm just wondering when I stepped into a parallel dimension wherein people aren't really all that put out by a woman getting stabbed in the baby like 15 times. That was insanely brutal. Great entertainment, though! RIGHT?
> 
> 
> Yeah actually since apparently I am no longer in the world where I was born, nobody is even talking about the first stabbing and is focused mostly on who actually died, rather than how one minor character died. There is roughly the same impact in the books, too, where the bit I'm choked about didn't happen at all. So they could have ditched the whole thing instead of flying headfirst into new realms of extremely bad taste, without affecting the reaction one bit




Did the torture scenes cause this sort of frustration in you? I don't recall reading any sort of reaction by you involving Theon. We see a woman get stabbed in the belly, which on its own isn't that graphic and if it were a dude probably wouldn't bother you since you haven't mentioned it and it has happened countless times at this point. The only reason it has such an impact, and apparently bothers you so, is because she is pregnant. There are far bloodier scenes, or at least just as much so, and this isn't the first instance of women getting stabbed in the belly while pregnant either. Remember season 1? Or how about Ros with an arrow through the chest? This show may just not suit your delicate sensibilities. 

They couldn't have his wife die off screen and then show it because she was the centerpiece to the event and killing the baby was to make a statement (plenty of foreshadowing to the event). There was direct intent through that episode. None of that was mindless slaughter or gore. It was no more over the top than any other episode with slaughter being the main event (rather than drama).


----------



## sakeido

Xaios said:


> Here's the issue though. In the book, Robb isn't a POV character. While the horror is still quite effective, we're still experiencing it 2nd hand through Catlyn's eyes. That wouldn't work for television, especially with Robb getting upgraded to being a POV character in the show. And because he was a POV character, we needed a reason to care about his arc. Hence, we got Talisa being given a much larger role in the show than Jeyne Westerling had in the book. Now because Robb and Talisa had such a large part in the show, the resolution of their plotline had to have a _meaningful_ impact. Robb dying wouldn't have been enough, because we can't see it through the lens of Catlyn's point of view. If Talisa had lived, knowing that she'd be relegated to being a completely unimportant side-character would have made her arc completely pointless.
> 
> So no, doing it the same way as they had in the book would not have been nearly as meaningful or effective.



I disagree 100%. In the book, Robb made some poor choices but his story remained essentially the same as his dad's. His honor ends up killing him. In the show, Robb is just an idiot, and so is Catlyn. Robb seems more like a Kramer who falls ass backwards into small militory victories, and less a stalwart legend in his own lifetime like he was in the book. The parallels between Ned and Robb are still there but to nowhere near the same extent.

And in that scene, the actress playing Catlyn nailed it and so did Robb. Her and Robb could have carried that just fine. The baby stabbing was just some extra shock added onto it just for the hell of it. Talisa could have ended up dead all the same. She was what, like four months? Obviously if she dies, the kid dies. People hanging labels on that "oh it was symbolic of them, killing the baby like that" no actually how bout it was just the sort of supremely blunt and obvious bullshit people feel the need to toss into their shows, books, whatever these days because audiences are getting so dumb you need to do things like that for them to see what you are driving at.

And it should be a social commentary. So far I haven't seen too many people specifically decrying Talisa's death, but I hope to see some articles popping up about it soon. This is ....ing surreal.



flint757 said:


> Did the torture scenes cause this sort of frustration in you? I don't recall reading any sort of reaction by you involving Theon. We see a woman get stabbed in the belly, which on its own isn't that graphic and if it were a dude probably wouldn't bother you since you haven't mentioned it and it has happened countless times at this point. The only reason it has such an impact, and apparently bothers you so, is because she is pregnant. There are far bloodier scenes, or at least just as much so, and this isn't the first instance of women getting stabbed in the belly while pregnant either. Remember season 1? Or how about Ros with an arrow through the chest? This show may just not suit your delicate sensibilities.


What in season 1? Was that the baby thing? It was off-screen and they used reaction shots to show what happened. Ros also died off-screen. The torture has been pretty cerebral so far, since most of it is Theon's reaction to it anyway, and the worst stuff is the Boy messing with him. But again, wasn't crazy about them going right up to when they are about to chop his junk off either. That was something only hinted at in the books and just that much more effective because of it


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Yeah...the death of Talisa was there for nothing more than shock value. I can think of no better reason than to make such a big deal of her pregnancy, or even have her be there with Robb at The Twins to begin with.

I do wonder, though, why they blew such a big wad on the 2nd-to-last episode of the season, rather than the season finale.


----------



## flint757

sakeido said:


> And it should be a social commentary. So far I haven't seen too many people specifically decrying Talisa's death, but I hope to see some articles popping up about it soon. This is ....ing surreal.
> 
> 
> What in season 1? Was that the baby thing? It was off-screen and they used reaction shots to show what happened. Ros also died off-screen. The torture has been pretty cerebral so far, since most of it is Theon's reaction to it anyway, and the worst stuff is the Boy messing with him. But again, wasn't crazy about them going right up to when they are about to chop his junk off either. That was something only hinted at in the books and just that much more effective because of it



So you're okay with gore, murder, torture, etc. as long as you don't see it? How's that for social commentary. 

It is a fictional show about the middle ages in a world with mythical creatures. There is no need for direct social commentary.

I fail to see how this incident is the only thing bugging you. They've shown/implied rape, murdered babies before, ran spears through peoples guts, cut off peoples limbs, brutally tortured people, hung up dead kids in an archway, put heads up on pikes, disabled a child, attempted to kill said child after first failed attempt, had animals ripping through peoples bodies, committed incest, and much more. This show would be jumping over some major hurdles to have any relevance to today. Granted social commentary to even a slight degree exists because of writer bias, but I can't stand shows/movies/books where that is their direct intent most of the time. It's manipulation; I'll think for myself .


----------



## Xaios

sakeido said:


> I disagree 100%. In the book, Robb made some poor choices but his story remained essentially the same as his dad's. His honor ends up killing him. In the show, Robb is just an idiot, and so is Catlyn. Robb seems more like a Kramer who falls ass backwards into small militory victories, and less a stalwart legend in his own lifetime like he was in the book. The parallels between Ned and Robb are still there but to nowhere near the same extent.





Spoiler



There's only one difference between Robb's story in the book and in the show, and that's how he's introduced to Talisa/Jeyne. In the book, Jeyne just kind of appears out of thin air. "I was hurt in a battle. She tended to me. We ....ed." is basically how it goes down. The show actually goes to the trouble of fleshing out the relationship, as well as showing exactly WHY Rob is so attracted to Talisa.



Aside from that, the only difference between the book and the show is all a matter of perspective. In the book, Rob is _*presented*_ as a legendary heroic figure, because we're seeing him solely through the eyes of others. The events themselves are largely unchanged.



sakeido said:


> And in that scene, the actress playing Catlyn nailed it and so did Robb. Her and Robb could have carried that just fine. The baby stabbing was just some extra shock added onto it just for the hell of it. Talisa could have ended up dead all the same. She was what, like four months? Obviously if she dies, the kid dies. People hanging labels on that "oh it was symbolic of them, killing the baby like that" no actually how bout it was just the sort of supremely blunt and obvious bullshit people feel the need to toss into their shows, books, whatever these days because audiences are getting so dumb you need to do things like that for them to see what you are driving at.



And that would have made Walder Frey's characterization completely pointless. Everyone in Westeros is obsessed with family and honor in some fashion. Just as much as Robb and Ned are obsessed with actual honor, Walder Frey is obsessed with perceived honor. To Walder, Robb reneging on his promise to marry a Frey girl was the _ultimate_ insult. As such, Walder didn't just want to kill Robb. He wanted to hurt and humiliate him in the worst possible way. And that way was to take what was most precious to Robb in front of his very eyes.

Book spoiler:


Spoiler



And honestly, I like it this way more. Jeyne Westerling basically turned into nothing more than a footnote. She disappears into the background in the book with as little fanfare as she was introduced. What they did her in the show gives her a raison d'être.





sakeido said:


> And it should be a social commentary. So far I haven't seen too many people specifically decrying Talisa's death, but I hope to see some articles popping up about it soon. This is ....ing surreal.



That's because most people are seeing it for what it is: an incredibly powerful storytelling moment.


----------



## Andromalia

Xaios said:


> Ah, but there's a whole more episode to go.


Yeah, but what you refer to is heard by hearsay from tird party characters way after the fact, we do not witness the action directly.

By the way, I'd advise everyone to view again the previous seasons/episodes: GoT is very strong on laying clues all over the place that you miss at the first viewing. Same goes for the books: the event I answer about in the first paragraph of that post is actually prophecised (sp ?) when Daenerys visits the house of the undying. Except you don't have the keys to interpret it when you first read it.

The main difference between book and series is that in the series we actually see what happens. In the books, half ot the news are character X saying this and that to character Y. But he might very well be lying, and soe stuff based on "but Soandso said" is very shaky indeed.

As an exemple, there is no sex scene whatsoever with Renly in the books, and the hints he's gay are pretty subtle (I missed them entirely at first read) and hearsay or jokes from other characters. We don't know 100% it's true.
In the movie it's so blatantly obvious some mystery is lost.
That's what makes Littlefinger weaker in the series: he has no POV in the books so all we know is what he says or what other say to/of him. Including triple layered lies and backstabbing so we can't base anything on it. He's much easier to understand in the TV show, where he just _does _things.


----------



## sakeido

HaMMerHeD said:


> Yeah...the death of Talisa was there for nothing more than shock value. I can think of no better reason than to make such a big deal of her pregnancy, or even have her be there with Robb at The Twins to begin with.
> 
> I do wonder, though, why they blew such a big wad on the 2nd-to-last episode of the season, rather than the season finale.


I think they actually would lose a good chunk of their audience if you just left people hanging for a year at this point. No Tyrion last night, either. They need the last episode to show some in-universe reactions to the Red Wedding and show how the few characters left that people like are going to deal with it.. Arya and Tyrion. Lord Beric and Thoros will probably show up, I think. A couple more chances for Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey to kick the dog, stuff like that.



Xaios said:


> [That's because most people are seeing it for what it is: an incredibly powerful storytelling moment.



It was powerful enough without it.



flint757 said:


> So you're okay with gore, murder, torture, etc. as long as you don't see it? How's that for social commentary.
> 
> It is a fictional show about the middle ages in a world with mythical creatures. There is no need for direct social commentary.
> 
> I fail to see how this incident is the only thing bugging you. They've shown/implied rape, murdered babies before, ran spears through peoples guts, cut off peoples limbs, brutally tortured people, hung up dead kids in an archway, put heads up on pikes, disabled a child, attempted to kill said child after first failed attempt, had animals ripping through peoples bodies, committed incest, and much more. This show would be jumping over some major hurdles to have any relevance to today. Granted social commentary to even a slight degree exists because of writer bias, but I can't stand shows/movies/books where that is their direct intent most of the time. It's manipulation; I'll think for myself .


I'm pretty sure all of those moments combined still add up to less screentime than the Red Wedding, and you must be American since you are lumping some really taboo sex in with actual violence.


----------



## pink freud

HaMMerHeD said:


> I do wonder, though, why they blew such a big wad on the 2nd-to-last episode of the season, rather than the season finale.



Episode 9 is always the big one: Ned, Blackwater, now this.


----------



## gunshow86de

Andromalia said:


> That's what makes Littlefinger weaker in the series: he has no POV in the books so all we know is what he says or what other say to/of him. Including triple layered lies and backstabbing so we can't base anything on it. He's much easier to understand in the TV show, where he just _does _things.




I also don't like how Littlefinger has turned into a hardass with the Christian Bale/Batman voice and demeanor. He was better in the first season when he hid his true intentions behind playfullness/smart assery (how I always imagined him when I read the books).


----------



## Xaios

Andromalia said:


> As an exemple, there is no sex scene whatsoever with Renly in the books, and the hints he's gay are pretty subtle (I missed them entirely at first read) and hearsay or jokes from other characters. We don't know 100% it's true.
> In the movie it's so blatantly obvious some mystery is lost.



Regarding Renly, yeah it's more subtle, but that's partly because we hardly spend any amount of time with him in the books to begin with. However...

(Book spoiler)


Spoiler



A Storm of Swords makes it incredibly obvious when Jaime says to Loras, "Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I'll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found." If that's not confirmation, I dunno what is.


----------



## wankerness

Man, the last page is hurting my brain. Is this guy basically arguing "if you're going to have pregnant women killed make sure it happens off screen so it isn't painful, murders should be happy occasions, if something awful happens to innocent characters it should be played for entertainment!"

I was shellshocked by the whole thing and I think that's the perfect tone. It's way too often that gorefests (and even this show) seem to revel in the violence, but that was just plain raw and horrific and really sold the emotion of the scene. I haven't felt that suckerpunched and sickened by anything violence-related since I read the section of Helter Skelter where Susan Atkins was bragging.


----------



## gunshow86de

pink freud said:


> Episode 9 is always the big one: Ned, Blackwater, now this.



Yup, they do the "game changer" episode for 9 and use 10 to bring it to a logical conclusion. 



Spoiler



I hope they change up the format for this next episode. I agree with sakeido, it would be a nice day for a Purple Wedding.


----------



## Xaios

sakeido said:


> I'm pretty sure all of those moments combined still add up to less screentime than the Red Wedding, and you must be American since you are lumping some really taboo sex in with actual violence.



Dude, tell me you didnt just say this. You're actually playing the "'Murricans are all sexual puritans" card? Last time I looked, brother-sister incest is Taboo EVERYWHERE. Even the book makes no bones about the fact of Jaime and Cersei's incest being directly responsible for Joffrey being a psychotic little ....nugget.


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Xaios said:


> Dude, tell me you didnt just say this. You're actually playing the "'Murricans are all sexual puritans" card? Last time I looked, brother-sister incest is Taboo EVERYWHERE. Even the book makes no bones about the fact of Jaime and Cersei's incest being directly responsible for Joffrey being a psychotic little ....nugget.



Yeah...goodbye credibility.


----------



## flint757

sakeido said:


> I'm pretty sure all of those moments combined still add up to less screentime than the Red Wedding, and you must be American since you are lumping some really taboo sex in with actual violence.



I'm pretty sure you'd be wrong... and really? 

Forgive me, I'll separate in to categories next time. I'd hate to offend you. 

Now I know you're intentionally just being an ass since the only taboo sex thing I mentioned was incest in a LONG list of things that are equally as bad as the one thing you've been harping on for the last page. Or do you consider rape to just be a taboo sexual preference as well?


----------



## Alex6534

Good thing I haven't finished off the popcorn, the drama continues!


----------



## sakeido

Xaios said:


> Dude, tell me you didnt just say this. You're actually playing the "'Murricans are all sexual puritans" card? Last time I looked, brother-sister incest is Taboo EVERYWHERE. Even the book makes no bones about the fact of Jaime and Cersei's incest being directly responsible for Joffrey being a psychotic little ....nugget.


It's still just sex. And the show did that too, pointing out the Targaryen curse... every other one ends up crazy. 



wankerness said:


> Man, the last page is hurting my brain. Is this guy basically arguing "if you're going to have pregnant women killed make sure it happens off screen so it isn't painful, murders should be happy occasions, if something awful happens to innocent characters it should be played for entertainment!"
> 
> I was shellshocked by the whole thing and I think that's the perfect tone. It's way too often that gorefests (and even this show) seem to revel in the violence, but that was just plain raw and horrific and really sold the emotion of the scene. I haven't felt that suckerpunched and sickened by anything violence-related since I read the section of Helter Skelter where Susan Atkins was bragging.



You coulda just left out the entire thing. It really just didn't need to be there. 

"Alright, so I really want to have Talisa get stabbed in the gut about twenty times with an unflinching camera perspective, no music, nothing - we need to play this completely straight. I don't think that seeing Robb and Catlyn bite the dust after we've gotten to know them for three seasons is really going to be enough to set the internet on fire. That'd be powerful but what will really make this scene is if we show this feisty medic girl who got a king to fall for her getting stabbed directly in the baby for 20 seconds. That is exactly what this scene needs for sure... nothing else is blatantly over the top enough for us anymore. What with that whole Jamie-Cersei incest thing I don't think a pregnant lady just dying will be enough. Since we have this weird thing where they clearly love each other and stuff, but they are brother and sister and boning, that's so ....ed up nothing short of Passion of the Christing a pregnant women will be shocking enough."

Give that guy a raise! and you guys are just eating it up, apparently... which is even more disgusting than the scene in question was


----------



## liberascientia

On a lighter, or possibly even more morbid note:


----------



## st2012

gunshow86de said:


> Yup, they do the "game changer" episode for 9 and use 10 to bring it to a logical conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they change up the format for this next episode. I agree with sakeido, it would be a nice day for a Purple Wedding.





Spoiler



That would be nice to see next week but the rumor is that the Purple Wedding will take place during the second episode of next season. I can't ....ing wait.


 

EDIT: Wait just a god damned minute, when did we start editing out profanity on my favorite ....ing web forum???


----------



## flint757

sakeido said:


> It's still just sex. And the show did that too, pointing out the Targaryen curse... every other one ends up crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> You coulda just left out the entire thing. It really just didn't need to be there.
> 
> "Alright, so I really want to have Talisa get stabbed in the gut about twenty times with an unflinching camera perspective, no music, nothing - we need to play this completely straight. I don't think that seeing Robb and Catlyn bite the dust after we've gotten to know them for three seasons is really going to be enough to set the internet on fire. That'd be powerful but what will really make this scene is if we show this feisty medic girl who got a king to fall for her getting stabbed directly in the baby for 20 seconds. That is exactly what this scene needs for sure... nothing else is blatantly over the top enough for us anymore. What with that whole Jamie-Cersei incest thing I don't think a pregnant lady just dying will be enough. Since we have this weird thing where they clearly love each other and stuff, but they are brother and sister and boning, that's so ....ed up nothing short of Passion of the Christing a pregnant women will be shocking enough."
> 
> Give that guy a raise! and you guys are just eating it up, apparently... which is even more disgusting than the scene in question was



My whole point in bringing any of that up is this show has no place for social commentary as it doesn't even kind of reflect our reality in a good way. It'd be rather silly to draw a line in the sand here and then cross it over and over again. That ship has sailed even in the books. 

And that you are a hypocrite for taking umbrage with this, but excusing it under any other circumstance (like it happening off screen or in the books or not to a pregnant lady).



Spoiler



The stabbing was a footnote in all the chaos. In fact, just because, I went back and watched the end. She was stabbed only 4 or 5 times and it lasted about 3 seconds, half off screen and then the fighting in the hall begins. Then they go off screen yet again and come back to everyone being dead. If were discussing over the top, I'd say the very end with the 2 slit throats was more over the top and maybe unnecessary than the stabbing.


----------



## bigswifty

^ I agree.

And I don't get sakeido's gripe with the whole stabbing. Yea, it was gross, unfortunate, explicit, all the above but the significance of it was to show the dismantling of Robb Stark's persona as he witnessed his world crumble and his heir snatched from his wife. If you haven't yet realized, in the world of GoT, men are regarded much higher than women, and as the baby "Eddard" was speculated to be a boy, this is the worst possible thing that could have happened to Robb and his wife. 

Then you have the fact mentioned by another user a page or so ago, that the wet shit Frey wanted to get back at Robb for breaking his oath.

I think the way it played out was excellent in conveying the grim dismantling of the Stark's and the absolute ruthless tactics of the Lannisters. I have no doubt in my mind that Tywin ordered his men to execute Robb's child before his eyes - do you?


----------



## sakeido

kk so I been posting about it for a page and you still think I care what significance that has in-story?

really lovin the media today. so the boston marathon got bombed, next movie I see in theatres.. terrorist bombing at the chinese theatre. next movie after that, september 11 applied to an entire city block. then this show caps it all off stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach, killing her husband and his mom all on-screen, unflinching, with some pretty shoddy effects. then I think back on it and this same season showed a girl who had been used for target practice with crossbow bolts in all the wrong places, they stopped ten seconds short of showing me a guy getting his dick cut off, another character was casually and graphically maimed. this other TV show they rob a train then murder a child in cold blood. woooooow dunno when I turned into my parents but what is with all this ....in violence. and people are eating it up! 

suddenly, being a brony makes sense

edit: oh right forgot about stannis's wife and her jars of stillborn fetuses too, another great great touch. because there is no other way to show a character is dangerously depraved than to just you know, show them holding onto dead pre-babies


----------



## myrtorp

What an episode!!!


----------



## MFB

Not gonna lie, WHAT THE .... BUZZFEED!

The 25 Most Tragic Deaths In Geekdom

The show has been on for 3 seasons, with only two being available on DVD now and you're already throwing spoilers like this on your list? .... you.

(Albeit, I knew it was coming since it's you know who not swearing to a ginormous prick, but still!)


----------



## flexkill

sakeido, I hope you understand that the shows creators are getting the exact kind of reaction from you that they wanted. The greatest proof that it was artfully done is that it has had such a profound impact on you. 

Look at it like a painting, weak Art/paintings just look like another picture on the wall no emotion nothing special. Strong Art/Paintings will have you staring at them all the while stirring all sorts of feelings and emotions.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Not gonna lie, WHAT THE .... BUZZFEED!
> 
> The 25 Most Tragic Deaths In Geekdom
> 
> The show has been on for 3 seasons, with only two being available on DVD now and you're already throwing spoilers like this on your list? .... you.
> 
> (Albeit, I knew it was coming since it's you know who not swearing to a ginormous prick, but still!)



Haha, yeah, there were all kinds of story HEADLINES on the entertaniment newsfeed on google saying things like "TALISA'S DEATH ON GAME OF THRONES: DID THEY GO TOO FAR?" making it absolutely impossible for anyone who looks at the entertainment news to not be spoiled, even if they weren't even trying to find anything GOT related. I sure am glad I somehow managed to avoid most of the spoilers before seeing it (a while back I did hear about Catelyn's arc in the books accidentally, but wasn't expecting everyone else to die here).

EDIT: Wow, that list sucks. Newt/Hicks in Alien 3 is one of the least tragic deaths of all time, unless you count tragically LAME. I mean, I loved those character in Aliens, but there's basically no fanfare whatsoever about it in Alien3 so it's impossible to care other than be annoyed at the crummy writing. Fred in Angel was a good one, though. And Artax was a good choice, I know many people that were scarred by that in their youth (I wasn't one of them cause I wasn't a girl and thus didn't like horses). Spock, Seymour, Ned Star, those are valid but obvious, most of the rest, bleh. That episode where Tara got shot was the same episode where Buffy got sexually assaulted, man what a season that was. I remember being pumped as hell when it sent Willow over the edge and she started blowing people up.


----------



## ihunda

sakeido said:


> kk so I been posting about it for a page and you still think I care what significance that has in-story?
> 
> really lovin the media today. so the boston marathon got bombed, next movie I see in theatres.. terrorist bombing at the chinese theatre. next movie after that, september 11 applied to an entire city block. then this show caps it all off stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach, killing her husband and his mom all on-screen, unflinching, with some pretty shoddy effects. then I think back on it and this same season showed a girl who had been used for target practice with crossbow bolts in all the wrong places, they stopped ten seconds short of showing me a guy getting his dick cut off, another character was casually and graphically maimed. this other TV show they rob a train then murder a child in cold blood. woooooow dunno when I turned into my parents but what is with all this ....in violence. and people are eating it up!
> 
> suddenly, being a brony makes sense
> 
> edit: oh right forgot about stannis's wife and her jars of stillborn fetuses too, another great great touch. because there is no other way to show a character is dangerously depraved than to just you know, show them holding onto dead pre-babies



Dude, that show is not for you, you're taking it at face value and it looks like you are mixing real world stuff happening like the boston bombing and tv shows... Not a healthy mix...

Stop watching it.


----------



## Xaios




----------



## MailMan




----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Xaios said:


>




my best friend and I are currently the dude in the middle farming everybody else for reactions bahahaha


----------



## crg123

sakeido said:


> really lovin the media today. so the *boston marathon got bombed*, next movie I see in theatres.. terrorist bombing at the chinese theatre....
> 
> *.... suddenly, being a brony makes sense*










Sorry, so many times I have told myself I would never use this meme, but I just had to. Really didn't see that coming. 

(please note my location)


On topic though: As someone who's never read the book, and was kinda ruined by the FB blasting. I thought it was a tragic shock and an interesting twist that alot of people didn't expect. Kind of a game changer, which is interesting for those who were planning out how they thought the series would go.


----------



## Yo_Wattup

i dont watch the show but goddamn Im over the statuses on my FB today.. Im guessing that something epic happened? 

can someone give my the TL;DW?


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Yo_Wattup said:


> can someone give my the TL;DW?






Spoiler



Vader cut off Luke's hand and then told him that he's his father.


----------



## SenorDingDong

Spoiler



I had been hoping Martin would change the outcome of the Red Wedding to increase the longevity of the series. Can't say I was surprised at what happened. At all. Read the first three books, then lost interest once Martin killed off almost every likeable character. Looks like next season will be the last season I watch. No way I'm going to sit around watching Cersei ....ing it up.




Edit: What's with the censored swears? I haven't been on here for a while, so can someone please fill me in on why .... is censored? And ....; and shit; and ass; and bitch; but not Pauly Shore?

Edit: I guess not all swears are censored?


----------



## hairychris

pink freud said:


> Your mission in life is now to get him to insert a *DJENT* somewhere in the show.



Er, no. Neither he, nor I, "djent".


----------



## ghostred7

I'm just gunna say this.

I've only watched a couple of episodes, so I have like 2-3 (?) seasons to catch up on. Here's what I learned in the couple I did watch:

Don't get attached to any characters. Don't be surprised by any graphic violence. If you're opposed to specific kinds of violence (children, women, etc)...don't watch this. Move along, this isn't the show you're looking for.


----------



## Basti

ghostred7 said:


> I'm just gunna say this.
> 
> I've only watched a couple of episodes, so I have like 2-3 (?) seasons to catch up on. Here's what I learned in the couple I did watch:
> 
> Don't get attached to any characters. Don't be surprised by any graphic violence. If you're opposed to specific kinds of violence (children, women, etc)...don't watch this. Move along, this isn't the show you're looking for.



This is why I can't immerse myself in the show. I watch every episode and I enjoy it but I can't identify with a show that relies so much on explicitness to get its messages across. It just doesn't suit it...a show like Boardwalk Empire is one thing, it's based on a real place in a real moment in time in which similar things did happen. GoT on the other hand is meant to pure fantasy, its appeal is wonder, mistery and magic...making it recognisably human is one thing, but the fact that physical pain and carnal pleasure make up about 90% of it just devalues it.


----------



## AliceLG

Basti said:


> ... but the fact that physical pain and carnal pleasure make up about 90% of it just devalues it.




How dare you come up with reasonable arguments on the Internet?


----------



## sakeido

ihunda said:


> Dude, that show is not for you, you're taking it at face value and it looks like you are mixing real world stuff happening like the boston bombing and tv shows... Not a healthy mix...
> 
> Stop watching it.


I can't keep em apart anymore. So sick of hack writers and directors who have to resort to such extremity to try and provoke a reaction from people




flexkill said:


> sakeido, I hope you understand that the shows creators are getting the exact kind of reaction from you that they wanted. The greatest proof that it was artfully done is that it has had such a profound impact on you.
> 
> Look at it like a painting, weak Art/paintings just look like another picture on the wall no emotion nothing special. Strong Art/Paintings will have you staring at them all the while stirring all sorts of feelings and emotions.


The reaction is I'm going to bail on the show... probably exactly what they wanted, right? The first two seasons were great, this third one is just brutal, disgusting, and unimaginitive. I assume this is what they wanted to do all along, and they just didn't have the budget to load up the first two seasons with as much gore porn as they've fit into this third one


----------



## flexkill

sakeido said:


> I can't keep em apart anymore. So sick of hack writers and directors who have to resort to such extremity to try and provoke a reaction from people
> 
> 
> 
> The reaction is I'm going to bail on the show... probably exactly what they wanted, right? The first two seasons were great, this third one is just brutal, disgusting, and unimaginitive. I assume this is what they wanted to do all along, and they just didn't have the budget to load up the first two seasons with as much gore porn as they've fit into this third one



Ok. How was someone with your outlook/views ever attracted to this show???? All the other violence ok, but you stab a pregnant women and I'm DONE????? Of course I would be appalled if it REALLY happened....I don't confuse television entertainment with reality though.

EDIT: And you negged me....LOL at you man.


----------



## pink freud

hairychris said:


> Er, no. Neither he, nor I, "djent".



That's what makes it better! I could just picture it, Tyrion listening at the door as Podrik does more sexy-time, and all he can hear is *djent djent djent*.


----------



## pink freud

Basti said:


> This is why I can't immerse myself in the show. I watch every episode and I enjoy it but I can't identify with a show that relies so much on explicitness to get its messages across. It just doesn't suit it...a show like Boardwalk Empire is one thing, it's based on a real place in a real moment in time in which similar things did happen. GoT on the other hand is meant to pure fantasy, its appeal is wonder, mistery and magic...making it recognisably human is one thing, but the fact that physical pain and carnal pleasure make up about 90% of it just devalues it.



GoT is "Dark" Fantasy, not "High" Fantasy. Think more The Witcher and less LOTR.


----------



## Andromalia

MFB said:


> Not gonna lie, WHAT THE .... BUZZFEED!
> 
> The 25 Most Tragic Deaths In Geekdom
> 
> The show has been on for 3 seasons, with only two being available on DVD now and you're already throwing spoilers like this on your list? .... you.
> 
> (Albeit, I knew it was coming since it's you know who not swearing to a ginormous prick, but still!)



No Jean Grey ? Really ?


----------



## gunshow86de

pink freud said:


> That's what makes it better! I could just picture it, Tyrion listening at the door as Podrik does more sexy-time, and all he can hear is *djent djent djent*.



Seriously, what's the deal with Pod's new "skill set" for the show? In the book, he's still a little boy. There are multiple references to him still being as short as Tyrion.


----------



## sakeido

flexkill said:


> Ok. How was someone with your outlook/views ever attracted to this show???? All the other violence ok, but you stab a pregnant women and I'm DONE????? Of course I would be appalled if it REALLY happened....I don't confuse television entertainment with reality though.
> 
> EDIT: And you negged me....LOL at you man.



I negged your super intelligent, brilliant original post. And also because I already listed a bunch of other stuff this season that bugged me, and they seem hell bent on topping themselves so who knows where they will go next. So stupid... "oh maaaan you are so completely repulsed by a pregnant woman getting graphically stabbed in the belly, you are such a bitch!" like I give a .... 

I am appalled this is what passes for entertainment these days, and people just eat it up. ....ing disgusting... as if the western world wasn't giving off enough fall of the roman empire vibes already


----------



## flexkill

sakeido said:


> I negged your super intelligent, brilliant original post. And also because I already listed a bunch of other stuff this season that bugged me, and they seem hell bent on topping themselves so who knows where they will go next. So stupid... "oh maaaan you are so completely repulsed by a pregnant woman getting graphically stabbed in the belly, you are such a bitch!" like I give a ....
> 
> I am appalled this is what passes for entertainment these days, and people just eat it up. ....ing disgusting... as if the western world wasn't giving off enough fall of the roman empire vibes already


So you come in here to let a bunch of people who actually enjoy the show know you hate it? Probably a genius idea huh? If you don't like it fine....I don't care....it's the fact you seem to have a hard time coping that we don't share your views. I'm done talking with you in this thread....i'm not having a web fight in a GoT thread that I started!!!! 

Oh and the only name calling has come from you pal!


----------



## pink freud

gunshow86de said:


> Seriously, what's the deal with Pod's new "skill set" for the show? In the book, he's still a little boy. There are multiple references to him still being as short as Tyrion.



3 theories on it:

1) Pure levity. Insert some lulz into the series.
2) Gift (within a gift) from Tyrion. Tyrion didn't just buy Pod hookers, he bought him confidence, payed Littlefinger directly and waited to see if Pod would give back the extra money.
3) LF power play. LF instructs the hookers to fake the whole thing, for some nefarious reason.


----------



## Basti

pink freud said:


> GoT is "Dark" Fantasy, not "High" Fantasy. Think more The Witcher and less LOTR.



I'm not very well-read on the whole subject, I just find it disappointingly low-brow considering how elaborate its whole construction is on the surface. I can see how the book might make it work though, my fault for not reading it instead.


----------



## pink freud

Basti said:


> I'm not very well-read on the whole subject, I just find it disappointingly low-brow considering how elaborate its whole construction is on the surface. I can see how the book might make it work though, my fault for not reading it instead.



It's not low-brow, so much as it's actually more realistic than High Fantasy.

In the period of human history that GoT emulates peasants were treated like shit, rape was common, killing off families for power wasn't unheard of...

Hell, the Huns even used biological warfare to spread plague and kill a TON of Europe.

The whole point of GoT is "The world isn't a nice place, and you can't expect your life to go well by default."

In a way, I blame Disney. The Grimm fairy tales used to be folk stories that were often violent, and without a morality lesson at the end. Disney came along and instilled this idea that the just and kind always win, there is always a moral to learn, and violence is only hinted at. Tales weren't like this, originally. Take this one: Children and Youth in History | "How Some Children Played at Slaughtering" [Children's Literature]


----------



## -42-

Don't like violence? Don't read the books, don't watch the show, don't complain about it to people who do. A pregnant woman getting stabbed was thrown in to shock and offend audiences? Next you'll be saying that reality TV is "pandering" and that VH1 is "low brow". 

Seriously, if violent media offends you that much, don't consume it, you can turn off the TV at any time.


----------



## Basti

pink freud said:


> It's not low-brow, so much as it's actually more realistic than High Fantasy.
> 
> In the period of human history that GoT emulates peasants were treated like shit, rape was common, killing off families for power wasn't unheard of...
> 
> Hell, the Huns even used biological warfare to spread plague and kill a TON of Europe.
> 
> The whole point of GoT is "The world isn't a nice place, and you can't expect your life to go well by default."
> 
> In a way, I blame Disney. The Grimm fairy tales used to be folk stories that were often violent, and without a morality lesson at the end. Disney came along and instilled this idea that the just and kind always win, there is always a moral to learn, and violence is only hinted at. Tales weren't like this, originally. Take this one: Children and Youth in History | "How Some Children Played at Slaughtering" [Children's Literature]



But I agree with your point entirely. What I have a problem with is the relentless insistence with which that message is so graphically portrayed the TV series. The story is fine and the violent and brutal events it contains would also be fine if not for the way in which they're presented as if saying this-is-what-you've-all-been-waiting-for.
What it does is put the focus on sex and violence, it becomes its raison d'etre and the reason why many people watch it. I like it for the great storytelling, the anticipation and I would like to think even the amazing atmosphere of the settings in which it all takes place.


----------



## canuck brian

sakeido said:


> I'm just wondering when I stepped into a parallel dimension wherein people aren't really all that put out by a woman getting stabbed in the baby like 15 times. That was insanely brutal. Great entertainment, though! RIGHT?



Because the show is fiction. It's not a parallel dimension, just one where people look at it as fiction....instead of the real world in places like Myanmar where women and children and butchered on a near daily basis in a similar manner. 

The show airs on HBO. That's a network you have to PAY to watch unless you download episodes. Don't like it? Don't download or pay HBO anymore. 

Why aren't you out there screaming about movies like a Serbian Film being made? It's a hundred-fold worse than ANYTHING I've seen in GoT. Just because Game of Thrones is popular doesn't mean they have to water things down or cater to the political correctness. 

We've seen people decapitated, lynched, burned alive, tongues ripped out, shot full of arrows, had boiling gold poured over their head, legs chopped off, hands chopped off, torn apart by dogs, tossed into pits with bears, babies culled - stabbed, drowned etc, flayed, tied up and shot full of arrows, a guy being relentlessly tortured over the course of nearly 9 episodes and the breaking point for you is the baby stabbing?


----------



## Basti

-42- said:


> Don't like violence? Don't read the books, don't watch the show, don't complain about it to people who do. A pregnant woman getting stabbed was thrown in to shock and offend audiences? Next you'll be saying that reality TV is "pandering" and that VH1 is "low brow".
> 
> Seriously, if violent media offends you that much, don't consume it, you can turn off the TV at any time.



On one hand you're right (no pun intended), but then what you start saying is that violence is truly the only reason to watch GoT. 

And we all know that isn't true...amirite?


----------



## wankerness

Violence is not much of the reason I watch it, that's for sure. I watch it cause it juggles more interesting characters and has far better acting, writing and production values than anything else on TV right now. It's a really, really well-done soap opera and I love nearly everything about it. 

I don't feel like killing off Robb was unnecessary at all. There was nowhere for his arc to go, this whole season (and part of last) has been dealing exclusively with him repeatedly making stupid mistakes and being inconsistent in taking the "NED STARK" path (ex, beheading that guy) vs the selfish path that is sure to get him in trouble in this world (ex, marrying that chick). What did people think was going to happen? Either he was going to get killed, or he was going to win the war and go back to Winterfel and have a baby named Ned and live happily ever after, the first is much more interesting with the ramifications. Like, what happens now with Winterfell? I assume Tywin's going to try and install Tyrrion since he's now married to Sansa and everyone still thinks Bran and whatshisname are dead.

Not to mention he wasn't really one of the most major characters. In the books he's not even one of the characters that chapters are told from the POV of. I think killing him off made complete sense storywise, even if it was very shocking.


----------



## Xaios

Gratuitous violence isn't a good enough reason to watch the show. Thankfully, there's also copious amounts of gratuitous nudity.


----------



## narad

Gratuitously well-casted. Gratuitously well-acted. Gratuitously well-scripted.

I don't know how much of an impression that episode will leave five years down the road, but it shattered me more than just about anything I've watched on TV, trumping a couple The Wire episodes, one particular episode of Dexter, and maybe a shot of Misfits. Maybe some Scrubs - but that's light-hearted sadness!



Spoiler



The brutality doesn't even get a bleep on my radar compared to losing Cat and Robb. I don't know what you would expect -- you can't kill them with hugs and rainbows.


----------



## Jarmake

What the ....? People are complaining 'cause the show is too violent? The red wedding on the show wasn't even near the one in the books. Sure, the lady was stabbed while being pregnant, but they didn't show the dog and Robb thingy that was in the book. And that was quite gruesome and dark stuff, but it didn't shock me too much, unlike the latest episode seemed to do to some people.

The thing I really love about the series is that it hasn't been watered down too much. There's no cute ponies running around the fields with rainbows and flowers. If the series offend or shock too much... well, you can only blame yourself for looking it instead of "friendship is magic". Or go read and watch lotr and the hobbit.


----------



## gunshow86de

**SPOILERS DON'T CLICK ME, SORRY THE LINK SHOWS THROUGH THE SPOILER TAG


Spoiler



Next week on GOT => http://25.media.tumblr.com/fa2be97efc72f6f96e3cd1f5a8b2d51a/tumblr_mnujn07H4l1qzmowao1_500.gif


SPOILERS DON'T CLICK ME, SORRY THE LINK SHOWS THROUGH THE SPOILER TAG**


----------



## Basti

I guess everyone needs to feed their Id somehow...


----------



## Watty

@ gunshow - Nice.


----------



## pink freud

A great point made on Reddit:

People get pissed off at Sansa because she dared to be naive enough in hoping for a knight in shining armor to come save her, and that everything would work out for her, and now GRRM has shown us that WE as the audience ARE Sansa. If you were hoping for everything to go for the good guys, you were naively hoping for the fairy-tale ending.

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."


----------



## Murdstone

Jarmake said:


> dog and Robb thingy





Spoiler



Stay tuned.


----------



## soliloquy

just saw the last episode...wtf?!

i guess this will force deneris to become a main role as she has been in the background all through out the story thus far. 

maybe even focus on the fire witch or something else...


----------



## Spinedriver

For me, I see the show as an *interpretation* of the books. The author himself is overseeing the show much in the same way that Robert Kirkman is overseeing the tv version of The Walking Dead. I remember Kirkman saying that in doing the tv show, he can take the story in directions he never did with the comic. Meaning that if in a particular issue he killed off a character, with the show, he can play it out as if they had not died. Or rather, events that he wrote in the comic that may have not gone over well with the fans, he can 'fix' them in the show.

That's the way people should look at Game Of Thrones. GRRM himself is head writer on the show, so I can't see anything being left out of the show that would be integral to the story he wants to tell be it show wise or book wise. 

Just with the inherent nature of TV, there are tons of details that are in the book that just won't play out in a 1hr show. Just lots of 'filler' and 'scenery' that while yes, they help the reader to fully immerse themselves into the world of Westoros in the book version; visually, it doesn't do much to move the story ahead when time is a pretty crucial element.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Spinedriver said:


> there are tons of details that are in the book that just won't play out in a 1hr show.



Thank christ, because otherwise it'd turn into a cooking/foodie show in a hurry . Instead of watching Game of Thrones on HBO, we'd be watching No Reservations: Westeros on the Food Network.


Seriously. GRRM needs to knock it off with the three paragraph descriptions of everything everyone ever puts in their mouths. Shit gets tedious.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

^NEVER gets tedious. Love me some food porn.


----------



## Watty

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Thank christ, because otherwise it'd turn into a cooking/foodie show in a hurry . Instead of watching Game of Thrones on HBO, we'd be watching No Reservations: Westeros on the Food Network.
> 
> Seriously. GRRM needs to knock it off with the three paragraph descriptions of everything everyone ever puts in their mouths. Shit gets tedious.



But....but....birds. In the pie.

Edit: Can we get Anthony to cameo? I'd love to see a conversation with him and Joff.


----------



## petereanima

Spinedriver said:


> That's the way people should look at Game Of Thrones. GRRM himself is head writer on the show, so I can't see anything being left out of the show that would be integral to the story he wants to tell be it show wise or book wise.



But that's actually the case - I've seen an interview with GRRM (that was made right after they finished Season 2) where he was talking about having discussions with the producers, always telling them "you know, if you do A and B, but let out C and D, the plot in Season 5 won't work out..." - and they would say that they'll just find a workaround. 

And that's actually the reason why I think this show sucks. There is too much wrong shit in it, where - if you have read the books - you always have the feeling that they simply didn't think about what they are doing here. 

GRRM justifies all of this in the interview with "the books are the books and the show is the show" - yeah, "obviously" that's the case (and I would say the same if I got that kind of serious cash for butchering my work)...I just hope he doesn't carry show-mistakes into the coming books.


----------



## Spinedriver

petereanima said:


> But that's actually the case - I've seen an interview with GRRM (that was made right after they finished Season 2) where he was talking about having discussions with the producers, always telling them "you know, if you do A and B, but let out C and D, the plot in Season 5 won't work out..." - and they would say that they'll just find a workaround.
> 
> And that's actually the reason why I think this show sucks. There is too much wrong shit in it, where - if you have read the books - you always have the feeling that they simply didn't think about what they are doing here.
> 
> GRRM justifies all of this in the interview with "the books are the books and the show is the show" - yeah, "obviously" that's the case (and I would say the same if I got that kind of serious cash for butchering my work)...I just hope he doesn't carry show-mistakes into the coming books.



See, I find that the process works for the Walking Dead. There are a lot of characters in the comic that don't appear in the series but at the same time, there are people in the tv show that aren't in the comic. For example "Darryl" (aka Norman Reedus) doesn't exist in the book but is clearly the fan favorite.

As for storylines, there have been some drastic changes between the two but it kind of makes things interesting. For those that haven't read the comics, it's just a well written show (just like GOT). For those that have, seeing little changes here & there keep you watching to see if things are going to play out the same way. 

I was just thinking that since the last 2 books haven't been written yet, he may change things up ever so slightly in his writing style so that it won't be such a task to adapt it for the show.


----------



## Radau

Well that's one wedding down!
Can't wait to see what they do with Joffery & Margaery's wedding!


----------



## SenorDingDong

Can anyone tell me what the point of the wolves was since


Spoiler



they basically all died without really doing anything at all


?


----------



## ghostred7

Finally watched it...knew what was going to happen thanks to internet buzz. Like I said, only seen a couple, so spoilers don't matter to me. That being said....I thought I was going to see something a LOT more gruesome at Red Wedding based on the hype around.

Saw, Hannibal, and Dexter are more gruesome than that scene most of the time. Can't believe people have their panties in a wad over that GoT:RW scene.


----------



## Kiwimetal101

^
I was thinking the same thing the other day?
How many are actually left?? Has it been one close to the death of each family member?


----------



## gunshow86de

SenorDingDong said:


> Can anyone tell me what the point of the wolves was since
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> they basically all died without really doing anything at all
> 
> 
> ?





Kiwimetal101 said:


> ^
> I was thinking the same thing the other day?
> How many are actually left?? Has it been one close to the death of each family member?



Did you not see Summer and Shaggy Dog f-ing up those wildlings? 

*Book spoilers aplenty


Spoiler



There are hints throughout the later books that Nymeria is still hunting in the woods and leads a large pack of "regular" wolves. Could prove useful if she is still bonded with Arya (assuming Arya ever returns to Westeros).



All the living Starks (minus Sansa) still have their Direwolves. I don't think the show does a good job of pointing this out, but the Stark children's lives are very closely tied to the Direwolves. 

Jon - Ghost
Bran - Summer
Rickon - Shaggy Dog (worst name ever)
Arya - Nymeria (Arya released her near the Trident)


----------



## Basti

The fat guy just successfully stabbed and killed a White Walker and he just left the damn knife there. I mean he wants to be killed.


----------



## flexkill

Basti said:


> The fat guy just successfully stabbed and killed a White Walker and he just left the damn knife there. I mean he wants to be killed.



I know right...I mean I don't see how that could come in handy again.


----------



## pink freud

Basti said:


> The fat guy just successfully stabbed and killed a White Walker and he just left the damn knife there. I mean he wants to be killed.



From what I understand the knife in the books disintegrates or something.


----------



## wankerness

The red wedding whipped me into a frenzy with excitement over how amazing the plot is and how I need to know what happens immediately so I disregarded my own advice and started reading the third book about 50 pages before it. It's all coherent but yeah things are shuffled. Ex, that part with whatshisname the former kingsguard guy revealing himself and saying that Ser Friendzone is a rotten bastard just happened, when on the show they stuck it at the beginning of the season. 

The Red Wedding is far more effective on the show than the book, I thought. Robb's wife getting stabbed gave it a lot more punch (plus she seems to have been a much more developed character than the wife in the book whose name I can't even remember) and the acting from Catelyn was heartbreaking, as opposed to if they'd staged it like in the books where she's getting attacked by birds and having her face ripped up while she laughs hysterically and kills some retarded kid named Jinglebell instead of the guy's wife. 

In the 200 pages after it there are already 2 huge things that seem like they can't be in the first episodes of next season, but I sorta doubt they're going to dump


Spoiler



Ygritte dying on us after everyone's still emotionally sore after last week, and the purple wedding seems like it's going to have to be its own episode cause it contains way too much awesome (and probably would have put the season way over budget if they tried to do it in the next ep). I think it would have been the best follow-up and way to send us into next season, though, cause it would sure be weird as the first or second episode next season. Plus, we could use another incredibly awesome Dinklage scene cause he's really been out of the forefront this year compared to last, besides the great drunk scene a few weeks ago. And, it would cheer everyone up!! I just hope they don't like, have most of the episode be Roose Bolton chopping off Robb's head and sewing on the wolf head and throwing catelyn naked in the river and all that stuff, it's all just told in passing in the books and having it all acted out might be a bit too much!

I have heard a bunch of contemplation that they're going to instead do something with whatshisname the resurrection guy discovering Catelyn's body *BAM CREDITS ROLL* to give the people who haven't read spoilers some kind of clue as to what's going to happen, but that seems to be further ahead in the timeline than all the other stuff I mentioned, though the show has not seemed to have much trouble shuffling things around so far so maybe.


----------



## Xaios

Book Spoiler:


Spoiler



What I hope they do with the Purple Wedding, what with Joffrey choking on the Strangler poison, is to end that episode with a POV camera as Joffrey, showing his vision as he dies. That would be excellent.


----------



## Spinedriver

The thing about people getting mad over "book spoilers" is that there's no guarantee that they'll actually come to pass. Personally, I like hearing what's going once in a while from people that have/are reading the books because it seems that they are being surprised now and again as well.

Granted, a lot of the broad strokes will probably be the same but it's the smaller things that the writers will probably play around with and end up surprising everyone.


----------



## wankerness

Spinedriver said:


> The thing about people getting mad over "book spoilers" is that *there's no guarantee that they'll actually come to pass.* Personally, I like hearing what's going once in a while from people that have/are reading the books because it seems that they are being surprised now and again as well.
> 
> Granted, a lot of the broad strokes will probably be the same but it's the smaller things that the writers will probably play around with and end up surprising everyone.



I sort of wonder that about


Spoiler



mute vengeful zombie catelyn


, I really just can't imagine it working on the show without being really stupid, but hey, they've been pretty flawless so far.


----------



## gunshow86de

Book Spoilers:


Spoiler



Since the PW isn't until next season, do you guys think they will end another usurper before the end of this season? I'd like to see them off Balon Greyjoy, and set up the Kingsmoot late in season 4. Mostly because I want to see Victarion.


----------



## pink freud

gunshow86de said:


> Book Spoilers:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Since the PW isn't until next season, do you guys think they will end another usurper before the end of this season? I'd like to see them off Balon Greyjoy, and set up the Kingsmoot late in season 4. Mostly because I want to see Victarion.



If you saw the E10 previews you saw a certain sister of a character whose father was one of the leeched named.


----------



## HaMMerHeD

wankerness said:


> I sort of wonder that about
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> mute vengeful zombie catelyn
> 
> 
> , I really just can't imagine it working on the show without being really stupid, but hey, they've been pretty flawless so far.



Valar morghulis. Valar dohaeris.



Spoiler



All men must die. All men must serve. _In that order._ I think they can make it work.


----------



## narad

You guys have no idea how tempted I am to just ctr+a this page and spoil the entire series for myself.


----------



## AliceLG

wankerness said:


> Ser Friendzone


----------



## Scattered Messiah

I watched this episode with a frw friends out of pure malice,
to see them cringe as yet another one of the supposed main characters withers away.

However I start feeling, that the producers start ....ing things up a bit, I fear there will be a few plotholes if they want to remeet the later books, dunno.

Looking towards the other wedding


----------



## soliloquy

this is awesome. 25 ways to get over the red wedding
25 Steps To Get Over Your Intense "Game Of Thrones" Depression


----------



## Basti

Next episode? I predict that someone attacks the wedding with nuclear weapons. The blast wipes out the whole world in a matter of seconds, here we have shots of each character barely having time to look startled before they're incinerated one by one. 
The next season starts off with the last person coughing and succumbing to the radiation. What follows is just empty shots of the aftermath for hours on end, week after week as per usual. Finally it simply concludes with these printed words: 
Winter has come.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Khoi said:


> I'm going to pick up A Feast for Crows. Do you think that's an okay place to pickup if I haven't read any of the others? Or are the others absolutely necessary?
> 
> I know there are a lot of differences and some new characters introduced in the main series, but I'm not too critical on those details. I just must know what happens!



God no! You would be completely lost, there are so many characters, sub plots and prophecies/hinted theories that have been cut from the show so you would constantly be scratching your head trying to figure out what their on about. I'd really recommend reading "A Game of Thrones" and then if you like it work your way through the books.


----------



## wankerness

I dunno man, I started right before the red wedding in my book-reading and was not very lost (I read all the way to the end of the third book). It was kind of weird when a couple minor characters popped up who'd been killed on the show (The Tickler!) and when a couple things happened that happened a long time ago on the show but for the most part I had no problem following and it wasn't much work to check the wiki a couple times to refresh myself on guys like Janos Slynt who I didn't really remember. I mean, I intend to go back and read the books sooner or later (probably after I finish books 4/5), but if you're really into the series and can remember most of what happened (I watched seasons 1/2 twice) you can generally piece everything together. The biggest difficulty is just keeping the tons of very minor supporting characters straight, but most of them have been on the show so for me I often could just look them up on the show wiki and see their picture and instantly remember. Most inconsistencies with the series were pretty easy to pick up on instantly without having to read the setup, ex "daenerys has an incredibly filthy mind and is also banging her handmaiden."


----------



## TheDivineWing22

WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS IN VIDEO.


----------



## flavenstein

I just watched all 2 + 9/10 seasons in 5 days 

...what am I doing with my life.


----------



## gunshow86de

TheDivineWing22 said:


> WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS IN VIDEO.




I was just about to post this.


----------



## pink freud

flavenstein said:


> I just watched all 2 + 9/10 seasons in 5 days
> 
> ...what am I doing with my life.



Spending 24.166666666666666666666667% of it watching television?

On another note, I think I now know how book-readers felt in relation to show-watchers, because I'm a show-watcher surrounded by DVD-watchers.


----------



## Andromalia

pink freud said:


> Spending 24.166666666666666666666667% of it watching television?
> 
> On another note, I think I now know how book-readers felt in relation to show-watchers, because I'm a show-watcher surrounded by DVD-watchers.


In case it was not clear:


----------



## Basti

wankerness said:


> "daenerys has an incredibly filthy mind and is also banging her handmaiden."



Oh lawdy.


----------



## wankerness

That Princess Bride edit is pure gold.


----------



## atimoc

Beer makes me become a jazz pianist so here you go


----------



## bigswifty

gunshow86de said:


> Jon - Ghost
> Bran - Summer
> Rickon - Shaggy Dog (*best* name ever)
> Arya - Nymeria (Arya released her near the Trident)



Fix'd


----------



## Xaios

Someone did it. Some crazy awesome bastard actually did it.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSwcawvyaY


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Poor Shae. Should have taken the money.


----------



## wankerness

Well that was a strange way to end the season, none of the 4 or so monumental events in the book which occur in the 200 pages following the red wedding happened tonight, nor did that epilogue bit that I thought might be the season ender. I thought the thing at the end with Daenerys was really stupid. A bunch of the early scenes were not in the books and were fantastic, though, especially the additional Cersei/Tyrrion and Tywin/Tyrrion dialogue. I also think that tiny little exchange with Sansa and Tyrrion at the beginning was more than they ever bonded in the book.

Samwise is starting to annoy me cause he reminds me of Sam in LOTR, especially in his last scene tonight. I mean, since it's GOT, he probably will get his head chopped off at some point or something, but for now he seems sort of at odds with every single other character in the entire business. He's too light and innocent or something, and having him be the only character who's encountered white walkers is odd.

Speaking of white walkers, one of the things that's different in the book that caught me off-guard was that they're apparently just not called white walkers there! I was confused the first time I happened on a discussion about wights and "Others." I'm sorta glad they changed it, though, thanks to the show Lost.

That Shae scene was weird. BOOK SPOILER!


Spoiler



I assume it was put in to give more motivation to her impending betrayal of Tyrrion, since her relationship with Tyrrion has been built up a lot more on the show than it was in the book, and since even in the book her betrayal seemed to come out of nowhere.



I dunno about that scene with Jon Snow/Ygritte, (BOOK SPOILER)


Spoiler



which was definitely not in the book. I thought it was more than a little bit histrionic in execution, but I guess the idea of it was ok. I guess with how much more developed their relationship is on the show I'd rather have that than the way it is in the book where he just finds her dead and is like "well that sucks."



I like Theon's sister a lot. It's too bad she's on the show so infrequently.


Spoiler



I've just started book 4 so I guess I'll see if she starts getting more attention there, apart from various old farts yelling about succession lines and her place in them.



I loved the two added parts with Arya and the hound. That second one seemed to be pure audience service after last week but it was a nice concession to our (my own, and probably most other viewers as well!) desire to see some kind of revenge. The first was a good way to visualize that horrific


Spoiler



king of the north thing, which isn't actually witnessed in the books, just mentioned by other characters after the fact.



Overall I'm now glad I read ahead cause I might have been more let down by the finale if I didn't know about all the awesomeness to come next season. I think next season is going to have to cost like twice as much money just for them to include all the stuff that happens in the rest of the third book, let alone the stuff that they already seem to be planning to include with the fourth book.


----------



## st2012

The scene with Shae confused me a bit. **BOOK SPOILERS**



Spoiler



I'm starting to wonder if they're going to substitute Shae for Tyrions first wife. They've already fleshed out her character way more then she was developed in the books so I'm fairly convinced that she won't betray him and end up being the garbage she was in the novels. I'm starting to think she'll disappear and Tyrion will go looking for her instead of Tysha. I could be completely off base but it seems to me they've made some drastic changes to the character.


----------



## flexkill

Now I have to wait an eternity for the next season.........guess now is a good time to get reading the books!


----------



## TheDivineWing22

Spoiler



Theon


----------



## MailMan

I was quite content with this finale. Could have been more powerful, but as this was the best season so far, I think the closure fit very well.



wankerness said:


> I like Theon's sister a lot. It's too bad she's on the show so infrequently.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I've just started book 4 so I guess I'll see if she starts getting more attention there, apart from various old farts yelling about succession lines and her place in them.



I don't  They screwed her up totally IMO. She was so much more _badass_ in the books, where she's a hot girl, while in the show... well, she's anything but. But it's far from just that: the actress simply can't nail the role, which was blatantly obvious in the previous season. She looks like a random cockney girl form the East End, and not the kind of pirate queen she is in the books. One of the worst casting decisions for the show.

Btw it's Tyrion, and Samwell (unless you wrote Samwise on purpose because of LoTR). Sorry, don't mean to be a grammar nazi or anything 



st2012 said:


> The scene with Shae confused me a bit. **BOOK SPOILERS**
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if they're going to substitute Shae for Tyrions first wife. They've already fleshed out her character way more then she was developed in the books so I'm fairly convinced that she won't betray him and end up being the garbage she was in the novels. I'm starting to think she'll disappear and Tyrion will go looking for her instead of Tysha. I could be completely off base but it seems to me they've made some drastic changes to the character.



Book spoilers:


Spoiler



What I think will happen is she might / might not betray Tyrion (more probable that she will, for some cause, maybe as a revenge for him marrying Sansa?), but for some reason I think it will not be Tyrion who kills her, but Tywin - and Tyrion will kill him for that, also. Having written this down, it may be a little far fetched...


----------



## pink freud

MailMan said:


> Book spoilers:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> What I think will happen is she might / might not betray Tyrion (more probable that she will, for some cause, maybe as a revenge for him marrying Sansa?), but for some reason I think it will not be Tyrion who kills her, but Tywin - and Tyrion will kill him for that, also. Having written this down, it may be a little far fetched...





Spoiler



I find it more feasible than show-Tyrion killing her. Right now there are two major changes they could do that actually might not change the story (depending on how GRRM writes the last book(s)). They could make Shae the lost love Tyrion searches for, and (this one would piss off so many book-readers but wouldn't matter to pure show watchers) they could have Talisa become Lady Stoneheart.


----------



## HaMMerHeD

Spoiler



I think they're playing up the Tyrion+Shae relationship specifically to have a big emotional payoff when he kills her. I think that's why they played the Robb+Talissa/Jeyne relationship up so much.


----------



## soliloquy

i dont get the character change that we see in sam. 
he started off as a coward who pissed his pants if you looked at him wrong. and now he is the acting leader of a fairly powerful group...i'm assuming they will soon name him 'sam, the white-walker-slayer'. 

aside from that, i'm kind of getting annoyed with deneris and how slow her story is going. i get it, shes building an army, her dragons need to grow, she needs more support...etc...fine. but 3 seasons down and still there isn't much development on her end. even after having such a large group behind her, she's still in the shadows of everyone else


----------



## HaMMerHeD

soliloquy said:


> i dont get the character change that we see in sam.
> he started off as a coward who pissed his pants if you looked at him wrong. and now he is the acting leader of a fairly powerful group...i'm assuming they will soon name him 'sam, the white-walker-slayer'.
> 
> aside from that, i'm kind of getting annoyed with deneris and how slow her story is going. i get it, shes building an army, her dragons need to grow, she needs more support...etc...fine. but 3 seasons down and still there isn't much development on her end. even after having such a large group behind her, she's still in the shadows of everyone else



At this point in the book, they do call him Sam the Slayer. He's still a coward, but not as much as before. He's not acting leader though, but he is the steward of Maester Amon, which gives him some reflected authority. The people that helped bring Jon in were mostly in that little clutch of friends led by Jon.

After Jeor Mormont's death, some elderly knight assumes interim control, but he's never a very important character.


Spoiler



Obviously, the Night's Watch needs a new Lord Commander, though....



Danaerys' story stalls and moves in fits and starts. It's frustrating to her. I think it's meant to feel frustrating to viewers/readers as well.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I can't get over how bad the ending was. They could have ended it with



Spoiler



Nymeria resurrection scene or a certain faceless man throwing someone of a bridge



That would have fit in much better with the "magical" endings from season 1 and 2. Good episode nonetheless but either of those closing scenes would have left viewers with their jaw on the floor talking about it for months.


----------



## Basti

dbrozz said:


> Fix'd



Shaggy Dog makes me think of a collab between Shaggy Boombastic and Snoop Dog.


----------



## Xaios

The ending of the episode did feel pretty forced, especially compared to the awesomesauce ending of Season 2. The rest of the episode was pretty solid though.

Show/Book Comparison Spoiler


Spoiler



There were some changes to the Stannis scenes, some of which I liked, some of which I didn't. There was one scene I liked where Stannis is in the foreground and Melisandre and Davos in the background, Melisandre on the left and Davos on the right. It evoked the "angel and demon on your shoulder whispering in your ear" trope effectively.

One thing I didn't like though was that, in the book, Davos' brazen defiance and "willingness to do the right thing" is what sways Stannis into leaving Dragonstone for the North, because he shows Stannis that he was trying to attain the throne to save the kingdom when he should be saving the kingdom to attain the throne. Here, he pridefully tells Davos to go f_u_ck himself and sentences him to death until Melisandre intervenes. The book showed Stannis as having an overdeveloped sense of justice. That's still present in the show, but it seems to vacillate between that and an overdeveloped sense of self-importance, in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to Joffrey. Not a fan of him developing like that.


----------



## Mexi

was expecting to be a lot more blown away from the finale than I was. It was still really good, overall, but it was lacking _something_ that kept it from being a great finale


----------



## flint757

Perhaps because it is a midpoint rather than the end of the book.


----------



## Fiction

Hodor is a DJ | Do Androids Dance






=






Hodor.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Mexi said:


> was expecting to be a lot more blown away from the finale than I was. It was still really good, overall, but it was lacking _something_ that kept it from being a great finale





flint757 said:


> Perhaps because it is a midpoint rather than the end of the book.



There are two scenes they could have finished the episode on that would have left you with your jaw on the floor like the last two seasons. Huge mistake on the producers part.


----------



## pink freud

drawnacrol said:


> There are two scenes they could have finished the episode on that would have left you with your jaw on the floor like the last two seasons. Huge mistake on the producers part.



I'm betting one of, if not both, will happen S4E4.


----------



## adnecs

Hi Everyone! 
Unfortunately the season is over but we are all looking forward for the 4th
To keep connected with the exciting GoT universe my girl created a guitar a tribute hand-painted guitar strap series.
I hope you like it 





More here:
Game of Thrones Tribute - Stark custom guitar strap
Game of Thrones Tribute - Lannister custom guitar strap
Game of Thrones Tribute - Targaryen custom guitar strap


----------



## yellowv

adnecs said:


> Hi Everyone!
> Unfortunately the season is over but we are all looking forward for the 4th
> To keep connected with the exciting GoT universe my girl created a guitar a tribute hand-painted guitar strap series.
> I hope you like it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More here:
> Game of Thrones Tribute - Stark custom guitar strap
> Game of Thrones Tribute - Lannister custom guitar strap
> Game of Thrones Tribute - Targaryen custom guitar strap



That looks awesome. Same type of strap I use also. As for the show I finally got caught up so now I can read this thread with spoilers.


----------



## gunshow86de

adnecs said:


> To keep connected with the exciting GoT universe my girl created a guitar a tribute hand-painted guitar strap series.



Are those for sale? I'd be very interested in the Stark strap.

Note: Anyone who wants a Lannister strap is no friend of mine.


----------



## st2012

gunshow86de said:


> Are those for sale? I'd be very interested in the Stark strap.
> 
> Note: Anyone who wants a Lannister strap is no friend of mine.



Same here. If those straps aren't for sale they should be.


----------



## adnecs

st2012 said:


> Same here. If those straps aren't for sale they should be.



Actually they are . These are the samples of what can be done. If you want to have one (even with different design or a different house insignia) she will make one for you!
PM me if interested or you can go to her web site anya-k.com and order from there.
Cheers!


----------



## gunshow86de

Fiction said:


> Hodor is a DJ | Do Androids Dance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hodor.



Hodor?


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## pink freud




----------



## MFB

gunshow86de said:


> Are those for sale? I'd be very interested in the Stark strap.
> 
> Note: Anyone who wants a Lannister strap is no friend of mine.



I hate all of the Lannisters besides Tyrion, which is probably because I'm only on book two of the series and mayhaps he does something down the line to change my favor, but I'm also a Leo as well so I do have _some_ favoring towards kick-ass lion engravings/emblems


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## Varcolac

MFB said:


> I hate all of the Lannisters besides Tyrion, which is probably because I'm only on book two of the series and mayhaps he does something down the line to change my favor, but I'm also a Leo as well so I do have _some_ favoring towards kick-ass lion engravings/emblems





Spoiler



Jaime has some major redemption coming up.


----------



## MFB

Hmmm, interesting. In the show he's not only older than I expected but he's also far more despicable than I thought (I just got halfway through season one)

Which, while on the subject - is it revealed later in the books that Renly is gay or did they write that in for drama? I mean, seeing his actor, he looks a bit :ghey: and Loras's reputation definitely seemed like he would be, but I didn't see it coming.


----------



## tacotiklah

MFB said:


> Hmmm, interesting. In the show he's not only older than I expected but he's also far more despicable than I thought (I just got halfway through season one)
> 
> Which, while on the subject - is it revealed later in the books that Renly is gay or did they write that in for drama? I mean, seeing his actor, he looks a bit :ghey: and Loras's reputation definitely seemed like he would be, but I didn't see it coming.





Spoiler



Oh no, even in the books Renly is as gay as the sunshine. Later you'll hear Jaime talking about it in his usual cynical tones saying to Brienne of Renly, "It's the worst-kept secret of the court. If the Iron Throne were made of cock, you'd never get Renly off of it."


----------



## MFB

Really? Haha, wow, cause I totally never picked up on it but I never really thought of it


----------



## petereanima

MFB said:


> Really? Haha, wow, cause I totally never picked up on it but I never really thought of it



It's because there are only some few "accusations" here and there regarding it - you don't have any explicit scene that would confirm it. Easy to read over. I actually didn't get it until I read them the second time.


----------



## gunshow86de

Not A Blog - The Real Iron Throne

The "real" Iron Throne is terrifying.....


----------



## MFB

And way cooler than the one in the show


----------



## wankerness

The one on the show is great but yeah, that's an awesome picture and I like GRR Martin's write-up there. I love knowing what authors were visualizing.


----------



## flexkill

gunshow86de said:


> Not A Blog - The Real Iron Throne
> 
> The "real" Iron Throne is terrifying.....



That is fvcking awesome!!!!


----------



## AliceLG

flexkill said:


> That is fvcking awesome!!!!



Very kvlt way of going around censorship


----------



## gunshow86de

The Iron Throne again, same artist, different perspective....







The artist has some really cool stuff on his Deviant art page. Fair warning, some of the pictures are potential spoilers.

http://marcsimonetti.deviantart.com/gallery/

Pretty cool representation of the wall.....






Tyrion in King's Landing......


----------



## Basti

Is it just me or is the HBO show heavily lacking in that^ kind of artistic value?


----------



## pink freud

Basti said:


> Is it just me or is the HBO show heavily lacking in that^ kind of artistic value?


----------



## Basti

There's the occasional cool building/structure, but it's never evoked anything as atmospheric as I feel was originally intended. Though I haven't read the book tbh, I'm only speculating.


----------



## wankerness

"Artistic Value?" If they put things on the screen that looked like that the show would not be able to be taken seriously by much of anyone, those are great representations of pure fantasy and are awesome but they wouldn't work with the mostly gritty realism the show has tried to establish.

Not to mention it's a TV show, not a 100 million dollar movie. We're lucky it looks as good as it does.

The wall looks about that epic in that episode "the climb" as well as in the long shots of it that occasionally happen, like in the first season. 

Tyrrion looks like baba yaga or something in that pic.


----------



## Basti

fair enough, I won't write an indignant letter to HBO just yet.


----------



## wankerness

I don't find the books very evocative at all, they seem to very flatly describe clothing and food in extreme detail and not much of anything else. Then again, I thought the same thing about the lord of the rings series, which has several museums' worth of high quality fantasy art inspired by it. Maybe I'm just bad at visualizing things in books.


----------



## Basti

wankerness said:


> I don't find the books very evocative at all, they seem to very flatly describe clothing and food in extreme detail and not much of anything else. Then again, I thought the same thing about the lord of the rings series, which has several museums' worth of high quality fantasy art inspired by it. Maybe I'm just bad at visualizing things in books.



I think the magic happens when just enough is left to the reader's imagination. What seem like unnecessarily long digressions about rivers, cities, trees and their history in LoTR can be wildly captivating to others. I got a similar idea from GRRM trying to put the iron throne from his ideas into words...but that's art for you. 
I guess as a TV show they don't have all that much opportunity to explore their own artistic interpretations.


----------



## petereanima

It's also a main reason why most book-to-movie/series adaptions don't really work for me, if I have read the book already. I really imagine EVERYTHING (if the book is well written), have a picture of every person, landscape, building iin my heard, very detailled actually. And if the film-adaption does not match up to the picture i had in mind, I have a hard time enjoying it.

Yeah, not their fault of course, but I can't change it either haha..


----------



## MailMan




----------



## Andromalia

That throne is cool. Martin is right in saying the images we get from books don't always line up, which is why at every cult adaptation you have a horde of disgruntled fans.
Which is why even with some scenario "arrangements", I did like the LOTR trilogy: it did reasonably look like I saw it in my head. Except for the Procter & Gamble army of the dead that washes whiter than white. (Don't start me on the hobbit, though)

Oh, and Mr Martin....

Maybe if you wrote faster the images we make up ourselves wouldn't become so ingrained as to become a problem when wiewing the show. 
*Pulls out the whip*


----------



## Varcolac

Andromalia said:


> Oh, and Mr Martin....
> 
> Maybe if you wrote faster the images we make up ourselves wouldn't become so ingrained as to become a problem when wiewing the show.
> *Pulls out the whip*





Neil Gaiman said:


> George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.



 It'll be here when he writes it. Not a moment before. It's not like writing and editing a thousand-page monster like _A Dance with Dragons_ is something you do overnight, and it's only been two years since the last one. 

He writes slow but he writes well, and it's not like there's no other books to read in the meantime.


----------



## MFB

Just finished "Clash of Kings" and I begin "Storm of Swords" tomorrow. Oh how I long to read of this infamous ..._Red Wedding_ and such


----------



## pink freud

I just have to say, mad props to the guys who are inventing Dothraki and Valyrian. Just finished a linguistics assignment in which I had to create a language (just for five sentences) and that shit is FJOOKING HARD.


----------



## crg123

I love that illustration of the iron throne. It's more of how I would have envisioned it.


----------



## sakeido

Varcolac said:


> It'll be here when he writes it. Not a moment before. It's not like writing and editing a thousand-page monster like _A Dance with Dragons_ is something you do overnight, and it's only been two years since the last one.
> 
> He writes slow but he writes well, and it's not like there's no other books to read in the meantime.



The Kingkiller Chronicle is pretty good... picked it up after I read a review of a Neil Gaiman book that dropped Patrick Rothfuss's name in the same sentence as GRRM


----------



## gunshow86de

This is pretty great, if you're an AD fan.

'Game of Thrones'/'Arrested Development' Mashup | Cracked.com


----------



## Xaios

sakeido said:


> The Kingkiller Chronicle is pretty good... picked it up after I read a review of a Neil Gaiman book that dropped Patrick Rothfuss's name in the same sentence as GRRM



Agreed, "The Name of the Wind" and "The Wise Man's Fear" are both fantastic. Hell, "The Name of the Wind" is the book that got me interested in fantasy to begin with. Can't wait for The Doors of Stone.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## flexkill

^^


----------



## Jakke

Going to do a new try with this series, starting the second season over from the start (watched something like two episodes into it earlier). If only just to not get the petrified and horrified looks from people coupled with the whispered "you... you don't watch GoT?".

Could be that I mainly associate with, apart from my musical connections, the mathematicians, physicists and chemists, and they love their popular culture.


Yeah... I don't watch Breaking Bad either.


Spoiler



I do have all the seasons of Friends on DVD though


----------



## AxeHappy

I think the second season is the weakest, and they really needed to break the book up into more than one season. 

The third season is back to being awesome though. 


I also don't watch breaking bad.


----------



## MFB

Jakke said:


> Going to do a new try with this series, starting the second season over from the start (watched something like two episodes into it earlier). If only just to not get the petrified and horrified looks from people coupled with the whispered "you... you don't watch GoT?".
> 
> Could be that I mainly associate with, apart from my musical connections, the mathematicians, physicists and chemists, and they love their popular culture.
> 
> 
> Yeah... I don't watch Breaking Bad either.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I do have all the seasons of Friends on DVD though



You're not missing much by NOT watching it as compared to the books (yup, I've become one of those people), its quite terrible.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> You're not missing much by NOT watching it as compared to the books (yup, I've become one of those people) they're quite terrible.



Wait, what are you saying? If he's read the books, he doesn't need to watch it, but the books are terrible?


----------



## MFB

No, if he reads the books - he'll be ahead of the show and able to snicker at everyone's reactions to the show (the Red Wedding is nothing compared to later) and it'll read so much better than the way the show re-arranges and writes everything which the show leaves out because of how much there is


Spoiler



(for instance, Daenaerys gets glossed over when in fact her arc is a MAJOR deal, like when she dealt with the House of the Dead; 5 minutes of air-time and she wandered through doors when in reality, she sees the past lives of House Targaryen and there's more wizards than just Pyat Pri waiting for her at the end, etc..)



Edit: realized my mistake was saying "they're" and not, "its"


----------



## wankerness

Ah, OK. I have now read a couple of the books and think the show is better in nearly every way. The book has more plot and detail but also has some garbage that was rightfully cut out, plus I could not give a shit about the 20% of the book that is simply clothing/food descriptions. I think they enhance each other.


----------



## pink freud

The books have the advantage of inner monologue, which changes how the story plays out. Some of the scenes in the show are fairly different because actions in the book are taken that result from inner thoughts. Sansa's behavior with Tyrion, for example.


----------



## wankerness

pink freud said:


> The books have the advantage of inner monologue, which changes how the story plays out. Some of the scenes in the show are fairly different because actions in the book are taken that result from inner thoughts. Sansa's behavior with Tyrion, for example.



That's a benefit with other stuff, though, cause it's just blunt and retarded in the book. The most striking one that immediately showed me the benefit the show has with good actors was the way those conversations between Tyrion and Varys that are full of double-speak are in the book. It's just like "TYRION KNEW WHAT HE REALLY MEANT WAS [X], so he said [Y]!" after every single line Varys has, while on the show they have the exact same dialogue but the show trusts the actors (and the viewer) to understand what they mean. Another example is the reveal where you find out Daenerys speaks the language of that douchey slaver guy, obviously in the book they couldn't keep that a secret and didn't try, but I thought it was great the way it was on the show where she'd give subtle little smiles here and there that suggested she probably did but you weren't sure until she spoke it herself.


----------



## Jakke

I'm on episode three, and I thank my lucky star that the kids these days don't have a reference-point to Eminem. Had they had that reference point, I'm sure that the internet would be swamped with videos consisting of photage of Sansa to the tune of Lose Yourself, as there is no creature with a more literal mindframe than a teenager with a boner for the latest popular culture.

*EDIT* Possibly Numb maybe...


----------



## Deadnightshade

Jakke said:


> would be swamped with videos consisting of photage of Sansa to the tune of Lose Yourself, as there is no creature with a more literal mindframe than a teenager with a boner for the latest popular culture.



Well in that world for the average girl having arrangements made for her to really be a princess, seeing the possibility and your prince in front of you, was a dream come true.

That being said,I wanted to bitchslap her,because she didn't ever bother to question herself whether she even needed to do anything serious to deserve becoming queen.Progressively I grew more fond of her.Took 2 seasons  .

On the contrary,I really liked Arya from the get-go.She gives me the impression that she is a boy-girl because she was raised to be righteous.Hell I'd rather have a daughter like her rather than a lilly-assed one .


Spoiler



Towards the last season I was a bit unimpressed though.I believed her fighting skills would have gotten a little better by then.Guess I was expecting more of a miracle-fighter child due to the way she was introduced in the fist season


----------



## flexkill

Man I can't wait for the new season to start!!!!


----------



## Xaios

Gonna be waiting a while there.


----------



## flexkill

Xaios said:


> Gonna be waiting a while there.


I know....


----------



## MFB

He's only got to wait till March, it's not like it's another 5 months or anything


----------



## gunshow86de

MFB said:


> He's only got to wait till March, it's not like it's another 5 months or anything



That ain't even half a year.

At least we have Breaking Bad to tide us ov.................. ....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wankerness

I'm so desperate I'm watching Homeland!


----------



## gunshow86de

wankerness said:


> I'm so desperate I'm watching Homeland!



Claire Danes makes ALL the facial expressions on Homeland. She makes Jim Carrey look down right stoic.


----------



## Basti

Whoa now do we want to compare the acting between GoT and Homeland? 

.... I'm in dangerous territory here


----------



## Mexi

I've actually started watching The Bridge. good acting right there


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

American Horror Story will be holding me over now along with Sons of Anarchy.


----------



## wankerness

Basti said:


> Whoa now do we want to compare the acting between GoT and Homeland?
> 
> .... I'm in dangerous territory here



Are you implying it's better on homeland? Cause it sure isn't! Mandy Patinkin is the only guy who's really better than the majority of the GOT people in my opinion. Charles Dance for example runs circles around claire dane's bug eyed repetition. I love claire danes, but her character is like one step removed from jennifer carpenter on dexter. I wasn't talking about the acting, though, just the idiotic plotting. This season's better so far though I must say, probably cause Brody hasn't been seen yet.

Anyway, back to GOT, I can't wait for it either. After reading the book I'm somehow even more psyched for it than I was before I knew what was going to happen. So much great stuff is coming this season.


----------



## flexkill

Boardwalk Empire always makes the wake a little easier.


----------



## 3074326

Never read the books and probably never will, sadly, but I did just get caught up on this show. It's fantastic and I hate (love) it. I've never seen a show that makes me shake my head, laugh and be sad and angry all at the same time. 

I'm sorry I'm bumping this without any news. But hey, I want to talk about it.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

The season 4 trailor should be coming this month or in January premiere is only 3 months away!


----------



## MFB

joshuavsoapkid said:


> The season 5 trailor should be coming this month or in January premiere is only 3 months away!



Season 5? Don't you mean 3.5, since they haven't even gotten into any of the Storm of Swords stuff (from what I remember at least)

Edit: apparently it'll be an entirely new season (season 4) instead of picking up halfway from another season but will FINISH the events of SoS, with season 5 starting for Feast For Crows (logically) but I imagine they mix Feast For Crows events and Dance with Dragons events together since they play out at the same times just different characters


----------



## wankerness

I'm sure season 4 will have plenty of stuff from those books, too, since the way the show isn't told from rigid first person perspectives means they can't really do the thing the books do where you just find out about important events from other characters talking about them a while after they finished. Like, all the stuff with Theon last season I think nearly qualifies as being book 5 material?!


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

MFB said:


> Season 5? Don't you mean 3.5, since they haven't even gotten into any of the Storm of Swords stuff (from what I remember at least)
> 
> Edit: apparently it'll be an entirely new season (season 4) instead of picking up halfway from another season but will FINISH the events of SoS, with season 5 starting for Feast For Crows (logically) but I imagine they mix Feast For Crows events and Dance with Dragons events together since they play out at the same times just different characters


 My bad it's late and I'm kinda sleepy.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

wankerness said:


> I'm sure season 4 will have plenty of stuff from those books, too, since the way the show isn't told from rigid first person perspectives means they can't really do the thing the books do where you just find out about important events from other characters talking about them a while after they finished. Like, all the stuff with Theon last season I think nearly qualifies as being book 5 material?!


The whole perspective change from the books to the show, makes it awesome you get to see events first hand in the show and hear them almost as rumors or talk of the day in the books.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> I'm sure season 4 will have plenty of stuff from those books, too, since the way the show isn't told from rigid first person perspectives means they can't really do the thing the books do where you just find out about important events from other characters talking about them a while after they finished. Like, all the stuff with Theon last season I think nearly qualifies as being book 5 material?!



I just got in to book 5 but he's gone by the end of 3, so I'd say it's perfectly fine for it to have all happened. Everything regarding the Iron Isles from here on in involves Asha, Viserion/One-Eye (Theon's uncle) and there's one more I forget.


----------



## wankerness




----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

wankerness said:


>


----------



## Xaios

What the .... did I just read??


----------



## Chiba666

Awesome, Northern down to T.


----------



## Dilan32

I Love this TV show. BTW, when the next season starts?


----------



## MFB

March something-something, not sure of the exact date


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Probably 3/30/14 Or the latest 4/6/14.


----------



## wankerness

Can't wait for the bluray of season 3 to come out so I can geek out and watch it again with all the commentaries. I love the season 2 commentaries, especially the episode with Melisandre and Davos. The story about him asking to see her tits when she had her pregnant belly on is the greatest.


----------



## bigswifty

Stoked for S4! Just caught up with the story in book 3.
Looking forward to knowing the plot beforehand now and seeing it unfold onscreen.

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but are you guys aware that Daario Naharis's actor has been changed for S4? I thought the dude who played him in S3 was suitable for the role, but in reading about the new actor (Michiel Huisman), he sounds pretty promising too.

Also, the Red Viper


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

dbrozz said:


> Stoked for S4! Just caught up with the story in book 3.
> Looking forward to knowing the plot beforehand now and seeing it unfold onscreen.
> 
> Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but are you guys aware that Daario Naharis's actor has been changed for S4? I thought the dude who played him in S3 was suitable for the role, but in reading about the new actor (Michiel Huisman), he sounds pretty promising too.
> 
> Also, the Red Viper


Yeah I heard, I wish he was the flashy version they had in the books though blue and gold teeth on screen would've been awesome.


----------



## wankerness

SO HYPED



F'IN APRIL?!?!?!


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

1:25 Strong Belwas?


----------



## Xaios

Bummer that they're waiting until April, but it still looks awesome.


----------



## MFB

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> 1:25 Strong Belwas?



Nah, pretty sure that was Gregor Clegane aka The Mountain

Also - if they're already bringing the dragon's in and making them that big then they are REALLY jumping the gun


----------



## Xaios

Nah, they're screwing with us somehow on that front.


----------



## Korbain

I cannot wait! Merr gawd. Awsome choice of music for it as well


----------



## flexkill




----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

MFB said:


> Nah, pretty sure that was Gregor Clegane aka The Mountain
> 
> Also - if they're already bringing the dragon's in and making them that big then they are REALLY jumping the gun


Wow so they recast the Mountain, this is the second recast they've done.


----------



## sakeido

call me crazy but it looks like they recast him back to the original guy they had playing him? 

the season 3 guy was tall and sounded about right but didn't have the physical presence of the original guy, who iirc is actually a bodybuilding giant stuntman


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

sakeido said:


> call me crazy but it looks like they recast him back to the original guy they had playing him?
> 
> the season 3 guy was tall and sounded about right but didn't have the physical presence of the original guy, who iirc is actually a bodybuilding giant stuntman


Nah it's a new guy, pause at 1:25 the first Mountain had a more slimmer face, this guy's cheeks are much bigger.


----------



## MFB

I loved the first dude they cast as him, that dude fvcking struck fear in me because he had that tall but still incredibly stout build like Tom Hardy as Bane style physique; hell, he looked like a ....ing golem, and I'm still totally clueless as to why they recast him for that dude who was just tall and lean. Makes no sense.


----------



## Xaios

MFB said:


> I loved the first dude they cast as him, that dude fvcking struck fear in me because he had that tall but still incredibly stout build like Tom Hardy as Bane style physique; hell, he looked like a ....ing golem, and I'm still totally clueless as to why they recast him for that dude who was just tall and lean. Makes no sense.



I think the reason Conan Stevens left was because of his commitments to "The Hobbit" movies. He *plays* (probably via motion capture) Bolg in those movies.


----------



## gunshow86de

wankerness said:


> SO HYPED
> 
> 
> 
> F'IN APRIL?!?!?!


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I loved the first dude they cast as him, that dude fvcking struck fear in me because he had that tall but still incredibly stout build like Tom Hardy as Bane style physique; hell, he looked like a ....ing golem, and I'm still totally clueless as to why they recast him for that dude who was just tall and lean. Makes no sense.



The first guy departed from the show on very bad terms and that's why he's not back. I think he just sort of up and left them stranded to be in the hobbit and burned a lot of bridges so they wouldn't take him back after he asked to be. I think everyone realized the second guy looked laughable. This guy's an improvement at least, but that first guy was still like the greatest casting ever, he looked even scarier than he is described in the books.


----------



## MFB

^ Really? Oh man, that's ....ing brutal since I really loved him


----------



## Sofos

In case anyone is wondering, the song is called Feral Love, by Chelsea Wolfe. Been a big fan of hers for a few years now. Amazing musician. We've had a few threads about her over the past couple years.


----------



## MFB

Here's the new Mountain I believe, although I didn't see season 3 so this may be the same dude from that


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^The Mountain was never cast for Season 3 but they made sure to mention him a lot.


----------



## MFB

OK, so yeah that's the new guy then 

His name just rolls right off the tongue, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson


----------



## Animus

wankerness said:


> The first guy departed from the show on very bad terms and that's why he's not back. I think he just sort of up and left them stranded to be in the hobbit and burned a lot of bridges so they wouldn't take him back after he asked to be. I think everyone realized the second guy looked laughable. This guy's an improvement at least, but that first guy was still like the greatest casting ever, he looked even scarier than he is described in the books.



Apparently there were also allegations of sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior with Conan.


----------



## sakeido

that just makes him sound like a better fit for Gregor


----------



## Xaios

sakeido said:


> that just makes him sound like a better fit for Gregor



"He stuck his head in my brazier!"


----------



## gunshow86de

Game of Thrones Reenvisioned as Feudal Japan - Imgur


----------



## warhead

can`t wait any longer......the decision of doing only 10 episodes per season was a relly sucky move from their part


----------



## Fiction

warhead said:


> can`t wait any longer......the decision of doing only 10 episodes per season was a relly sucky move from their part



To be fair most other Tv series with 50 minute episodes are 12 episodes, if theres 16 they usually have a 6 month break inbetween episode 8 & 9 anyways. It's not too bad


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

You'll get no sympathy from those of us who are waiting for the next novel, rather than the next season.


----------



## warhead

Fiction said:


> To be fair most other Tv series with 50 minute episodes are 12 episodes, if theres 16 they usually have a 6 month break inbetween episode 8 & 9 anyways. It's not too bad



In my opinion, it is not like that only with GOT........maybe the problem is in me, but stretching interesting series for so much time in general, just kills the suspense and interest in me........


----------



## warhead

Grand Moff Tim said:


> You'll get no sympathy from those of us who are waiting for the next novel, rather than the next season.



If you`re waiting for the next novel, rather than the new season, you`ll get no sympathy from me 
Joking off course.....anyway, I don`t see a reason to be pro this or pro that......it should all be just fun.....


----------



## Fiction

warhead said:


> In my opinion, it is not like that only with GOT........maybe the problem is in me, but stretching interesting series for so much time in general, just kills the suspense and interest in me........



I definitely agree with that though, I completely fell out with Breaking Bad after their season 5 break, I ended up catching up, but months after the season finished because the suspense was just killed for me.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

They should have just called it Breaking Bad Season 6. I only started watching a month before the finale so I got to watch it all in one big go catching up an episode or two before the end. 

This will be the best season of GOT yet. The twists and plots are going to leave you with your jaw on the floor. I hope they do a proper fantasy ending like Season 1 + 2 had. I felt really cheated they left out 2 possible magical twists they could have ended the season on but it looks like they just pushed them into this season.


----------



## MFB

Lorcan Ward said:


> They should have just called it Breaking Bad Season 6. I only started watching a month before the finale so I got to watch it all in one big go catching up an episode or two before the end.
> 
> This will be the best season of GOT yet. The twists and plots are going to leave you with your jaw on the floor. I hope they do a proper fantasy ending like Season 1 + 2 had. I felt really cheated they left out 2 possible magical twists they could have ended the season on but it looks like they just pushed them into this season.



Is this going to be the end of Storm of Swords or are they into Feast for Crows yet? Either way, more people have to die (that's not a spoiler and we all know it) so know one will see them coming though


----------



## naw38

It's the last half of Storm of Swords, but I believe they are mixing in Feast For Crows - and maybe Dance With Dragons(is that what it's called?), don't they happen at the same time?


----------



## MFB

naw38 said:


> It's the last half of Storm of Swords, but I believe they are mixing in Feast For Crows - and maybe Dance With Dragons(is that what it's called?), don't they happen at the same time?



Yeah, Feast and Dance run simultaneously at the same time it's just the different characters (Feast focuses more on long-time "secondary" characters like Cersei or Brienne and turns them into the main stars while Dragon keeps the focus on the main players like Tyrion, Danaerys, Jon, etc...).

From what I've seen of Tyrion alone I imagine part of Feast for Crows is going to come into it, if not just at the finale


----------



## Watty

Alright, so I thought it was the song in the trailer, but turns out it must have been in another GoT video or some such. Still sounds like CW, but is this rough as hell "tab" enough for anyone to tell me what the song is? (Her vocal line follows this pattern for the part that gave me chills....)

.......x................................x.....
x/..........\ x..............................
....................x............../..........
...............................................
.............................x................
.............................................x


----------



## wankerness

Watty said:


> Alright, so I thought it was the song in the trailer, but turns out it must have been in another GoT video or some such. Still sounds like CW, but is this rough as hell "tab" enough for anyone to tell me what the song is? (Her vocal line follows this pattern for the part that gave me chills....)
> 
> .......x................................x.....
> x/..........\ x..............................
> ....................x............../..........
> ...............................................
> .............................x................
> .............................................x



I think you should try and find the video in question  Either that or write the actual pitches on there in tab!


----------



## Watty

Lol, yeah...I guess back to youtube it is!


----------



## wankerness

Bat for Lashes is a similar artist to Chelsea Wolfe who also has her stuff used in a lot of trailers and fanvids for these kinds of shows, so if you can't find it you could listen to some of her random tracks?!


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash




----------



## wankerness

Fun preview, some good footage even though obviously they can't show much of anything because of spoilerzzzz. Needed some more melisandre imo. April can't come soon enough!


----------



## pink freud

MFB said:


> Yeah, Feast and Dance run simultaneously at the same time it's just the different characters (Feast focuses more on long-time "secondary" characters like Cersei or Brienne and turns them into the main stars while Dragon keeps the focus on the main players like Tyrion, Danaerys, Jon, etc...).
> 
> From what I've seen of Tyrion alone I imagine part of Feast for Crows is going to come into it, if not just at the finale



I think DWD moves farther forward chronologically. FoC mostly deals with King's Landing, while DWD focuses on across the sea.


----------



## heregoesnothing




----------



## wankerness

IN related news, I just watched all the episodes on the bluray with the commentaries, some of them are really crappy, but hey. The red wedding one is pretty good cause the actress that plays Caitlin hadn't watched the episode yet and she sorta goes hysterical. This is one of the best looking blurays ever, the lighting and costumes on the show are about the best in existence and they sure do hire a lot of people with great faces. My favorite bits of the season are still the Jamie/Brienne scenes, but Arya/The Hound and the couple with Davos/Stannis's kid are also really great. I was always sort of hoping for more of a payoff with that wizard in the box, but it's probably better that it's always just a horrific reveal that is never referenced again. My favorite two actors on the show this season are Carice Van Houten as Melisandre (master of the crazy eyes, also the way she tromps around is hilarious) and Lena Headey as Cersei (as always, the most hilariously poisonous character, but given some more moments of humanity this season in the last few eps. Her contemptuous walk is almost as funny as Carice's).

The episode where Daenerys frees all the slaves and blows everything up is amazing but I still just don't really like that character much. She's certainly light years better than in season 2, though. I finally liked Caitlin this season, her last scene is pretty stunning. Tyrion is too neutered to make much of an impression but he still certainly has his moments. Next season should be more on par with the first two for amount of stuff he gets to do.

Some of the little animated history capsules on the last disc are great. There's also one deleted scene with Pycelle and Tywin that is awesome. Overall, though, the extras aren't too exciting.

Andddd now I'm back to waiting for April


----------



## bluediamond

I love the novel !! But the movie season 2 onward gets a bit confusing, too much story to fit into 10 episodes perhaps.


----------



## flexkill

Still waiting.............


----------



## flavenstein

I'm watching through the show again before the new season, and you know what? *Carice van Houten*.

I guess I should start watching some Dutch movies.


----------



## wankerness

flavenstein said:


> I'm watching through the show again before the new season, and you know what? *Carice van Houten*.
> 
> I guess I should start watching some Dutch movies.



I follow her on twitter cause she occasionally posts some bizarre stuff, I think she's the only actress I follow. Dutch is an attractive language:

Filmtip - Vine by Carice van Houten - Seenive

You should watch "Black Book," it is a really cool WWII thriller made by the dude who made Robocop and Total Recall and it stars her.

She's in some other stuff too but I've never seen any of it. There was some romance movie starring her and the guy who plays Davos on the show, he was actually partially responsible for getting her hired on this show. On the season 2 dvd they did the commentary track for the shadow baby episode together. He tells a story about how when she came on set with the pregnant belly he was like "haha, that's awesome, let's see the tits!" cause he assumed they were also a prosthetic connected to the belly and then she showed him and then he was like "those are really realistic!" and she was like "yeah, they're mine!" and he was like "WHY WOULD YOU SHOW ME?!?!?!" and she just laughed. She's out there.

I liked when this picture series came out and basically no one in the US recognized her.

bill murray sings karaoke with total strangers : theCHIVE


----------



## flavenstein

What an interesting person, I had no idea.

Also I'm super pumped since I just finished the 5th book. Now I can share spoilers with everyone!!



Spoiler



Daario is Benjen.


 

Well, probably not. But one explanation that I will put on a tinfoil hat for is


Spoiler



Jojen paste


. So metal  (Google it)

I can't wait for season 4. There's going to be some awesome episodes


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^There are so many crazy fan theories that make absolutely no sense but there are some great ones. Look up


Spoiler



The alchemist


 and


Spoiler



The Red Viper poisoned


. 

Season 4 starts Sunday!


----------



## flexkill

Lorcan Ward said:


> Season 4 starts Sunday!


----------



## gunshow86de

Lorcan Ward said:


> Season 4 starts Sunday!


----------



## wankerness

I scheduled plane tickets for a vacation next week around being able to leave the morning after the GOT premiere and get back before the second episode. I have a problem.


----------



## Mike

In case you need a refresher on all that has happened leading up to season 4, this is extremely helpful. Contains spoilers. (No crap considering it's a summary of all that's happened, but some people still need the disclaimer. )


----------



## geese_com

Thanks for the recap vid. I unfortunately am going to have to wait until Monday night to watch the latest episode because I'll be at Dream Theater in Milwaukee on Sunday night.


----------



## bouVIP

The Ultimate Game of Thrones Recap - CollegeHumor Video


----------



## narad

flavenstein said:


> Also I'm super pumped since I just finished the 5th book. Now I can share spoilers with everyone!!



Is the red divorce going to happen this season?


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

narad said:


> Is the red divorce going to happen this season?


----------



## MailMan

So I wonder if Jaime will finally gain the upper hand this season...?


----------



## Choop

MailMan said:


> So I wonder if Jaime will finally gain the upper hand this season...?



Oh you!


----------



## gunshow86de

MailMan said:


> So I wonder if Jaime will finally gain the upper hand this season...?



Jaime/Hand puns are always _golden._


----------



## donray1527

hbo go is a piece of shit so i cant watch... ugh


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

donray1527 said:


> hbo go is a piece of shit so i cant watch... ugh


Worked for me.


----------



## bouVIP

Arya the bad ass!!!!


----------



## pink freud

MailMan said:


> So I wonder if Jaime will finally gain the upper hand this season...?



He's certainly making waves.


----------



## flexkill

The Hound likes his chicken!!!


----------



## flexkill

pink freud said:


> He's certainly making waves.


----------



## gunshow86de

pink freud said:


> He's certainly making waves.


----------



## flexkill

gunshow86de said:


>



Haha I was looking for that exact GIF, Did you make it or find it?


----------



## gunshow86de

flexkill said:


> Did you make it










flexkill said:


> or find it?


----------



## Xaios

Thoughts:

I Like the guy that they chose to play Oberyn Martell more than I thought I would.
The Martells/Dornishmen always came across to me as being the series' Arab analogue so I was disappointed they didn't go that route. I think what they've done here is the second-best option though.

MAN, that gold hand is ugly. 

One thing I wish they didn't change was when Jaime arrived back in King's Landing relative to... other events:

Book spoiler:


Spoiler



In the book, Jaime gets back to King's Landing right after Joffrey's death. In a funny scene, him and Cersei shag right over Joffrey's coffin. Who knows, maybe they still will, but it'll lose some impact with it not being the first time they see each other after his arrival.



I liked the economy of the opening scene. The wordless nature and the great use of color and music was really effective.

The last scene was unsettling on a few levels.

Show spoiler:


Spoiler



First, Polliver saying basically that he wants to .... Arya despite the fact that, even in the show, she's 13 years old at very most (and the Hound pretending as if he already HAD ....ed her ). And then how she relishes killing him with Needle, recalling what Polliver himself said when he murdered Lommie.



Girl is a goddamn psychopath.


----------



## pink freud

Xaios said:


> Thoughts:
> 
> I Like the guy that they chose to play Oberyn Martell more than I thought I would.
> The Martells/Dornishmen always came across to me as being the series' Arab analogue so I was disappointed they didn't go that route. I think what they've done here is the second-best option though.
> 
> MAN, that gold hand is ugly.
> 
> One thing I wish they didn't change was when Jaime arrived back in King's Landing relative to... other events:
> 
> Book spoiler:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In the book, Jaime gets back to King's Landing right after Joffrey's death. In a funny scene, him and Cersei shag right over Joffrey's coffin. Who knows, maybe they still will, but it'll lose some impact with it not being the first time they see each other after his arrival.
> 
> 
> 
> I liked the economy of the opening scene. The wordless nature and the great use of color and music was really effective.
> 
> The last scene was unsettling on a few levels. First, Polliver saying basically that he wants to .... Arya despite the fact that, even in the show, she's 13 years old at very most. And then how she relishes killing him with needle. Girl is a goddamn psychopath.



Have to remember that the age of girls in this world is a lot less relevant. Also this group of dudes were legitimized barbarians. Check out the last frames of the episode, all those farmsteads on fire are because of these guys and people like them. Rape and pillage your way to wherever you are going.


----------



## flexkill

gunshow86de said:


>


----------



## Xaios

pink freud said:


> Have to remember that the age of girls in this world is a lot less relevant. Also this group of dudes were legitimized barbarians.



Oh, I get the context. Doesn't make it any less squicky.


----------



## gunshow86de

New, improved wave.


----------



## mongey

thought the episode was great .pretty much perfect 1st episode of a new season 

I just want to watch it all now for F's sake


----------



## sakeido

I wish they did the Netflix thing and put every episode up at the same time for fast consumption. But then again the week in between the shows have a nice ebb and flow to them.. listening to all the show-only viewers bandy theories, the outraged and incensed reactions, so on so forth


----------



## The Mirror

To the readers: I've got no idea how the Mereen citywall scene will even be a tenth as great as it is in the book without the strong Belwas. 

One of the changes in the show I absolutely hated.


----------



## bigswifty

The Mirror said:


> To the readers: I've got no idea how the Mereen citywall scene will even be a tenth as great as it is in the book without the strong Belwas.
> 
> One of the changes in the show I absolutely hated.



Yea, I agree with you here. From the previews it seems Daario will take Belwas' place in that battle. Really a shame they decided to leave out Strong Belwas though.. and the way they introduce Barristan in the show is vastly inferior to the books..

On the plus side though, the Arya/Hound story line seems to be pretty interesting!


Spoiler



I think by this point in the books the Hound had received a mortal wound to the leg after the battle in the house? Also, area killing Polliver was more symbolic in the show than the brutal counterpart in the book.


----------



## Xaios

dbrozz said:


> and the way they introduce Barristan in the show is vastly inferior to the books..



Yes, but what they did in the book would *literally be impossible* on screen. In the book, you have the benefit of seeing him through a character that has never met him, so because of her point of view, she has no way of connecting the dots. On screen however, you can simply see "Hey, that's the actor that played Barristan Selmy in season 1."


----------



## The Mirror

Xaios said:


> Yes, but what they did in the book would *literally be impossible* on screen. In the book, you have the benefit of seeing him through a character that has never met him, so because of her point of view, she has no way of connecting the dots. On screen however, you can simply see "Hey, that's the actor that played Barristan Selmy in season 1."



Yes and no. Of course you know that he is Selmy even if Dany doesn't know it. But. You have no idea what he would be planning. If he is there to kill Dany to show his loyalty to the Lannisters or to offer her his services. There would still be a point of suspense even if you know him. 

And if I think about some of these pretty pointless scenes in Season 3 that could be cut for the Arstan Whitebeard / Strong Belwas storyline. Oh well. 

I guess the producers wanted to cut out even more names for the regular show watcher. Same thing I don't get with the Yara/Asha change.


----------



## MBMoreno

I just hope they didn't burn the CGI dragons budget on that close-up with Dany


----------



## ghost_of_karelia

Just got around to watching it as I was busy on Monday night, so the first episode has been sitting on my Sky recorded list for the better part of two days.

I absolutely LOVE Oberyn. He's absolutely perfect. My favourite character in the books without a doubt, I can't wait to see how they do his, uhm... combat.  The Arya/Hound scene was sweet as well, and I'm super happy that they stayed close to the books and got Dontos Hollard involved again.


----------



## bigswifty

Xaios said:


> Yes, but what they did in the book would *literally be impossible* on screen. In the book, you have the benefit of seeing him through a character that has never met him, so because of her point of view, she has no way of connecting the dots. On screen however, you can simply see "Hey, that's the actor that played Barristan Selmy in season 1."





The Mirror said:


> Yes and no. Of course you know that he is Selmy even if Dany doesn't know it. But. You have no idea what he would be planning. If he is there to kill Dany to show his loyalty to the Lannisters or to offer her his services. There would still be a point of suspense even if you know him.
> 
> And if I think about some of these pretty pointless scenes in Season 3 that could be cut for the Arstan Whitebeard / Strong Belwas storyline. Oh well.
> 
> I guess the producers wanted to cut out even more names for the regular show watcher. Same thing I don't get with the Yara/Asha change.



Both good points.. But as The Mirror pointed out, it could have been handled so much better and caused tension among viewers as to where Barristan's loyalties lied. Also, Strong Belwas could have been in the show. Period. Would have been amazing to see that bawsss slap his stomach, taunt his opponent, let him "blood" him and then just slaughter


----------



## donray1527

I just laughed out loud at the tags to this thread in the middle of class. Thanks to whoever did that... haha


----------



## Xaios

dbrozz said:


> Both good points.. But as The Mirror pointed out, it could have been handled so much better and caused tension among viewers as to where Barristan's loyalties lied.



Uh, not really. Barristan's exit from King's Landing was pretty much a gigantic middle finger to the Lannisters and Baratheons (if he did believe that Joffrey was Robert's son in the first place). There's not really any other major players he could have been loyal to save the Starks, and being as the Starks didn't really give a flying crap about what was happening in Essos (Ned Stark even tried to resign from being the Hand over the possibility that Robert would try to have Daenerys assassinated), that option wouldn't seem likely.


----------



## AxeHappy

So what if we could see who it is? Really? Who cares?

Deny wouldn't have known who he was. That is what matters. Are we really not able to enjoy a story being told. Do we have to place ourselves in it? 

I really just don't understand what the issue was.


----------



## bigswifty

Xaios said:


> Uh, not really. Barristan's exit from King's Landing was pretty much a gigantic middle finger to the Lannisters and Baratheons (if he did believe that Joffrey was Robert's son in the first place). There's not really any other major players he could have been loyal to save the Starks, and being as the Starks didn't really give a flying crap about what was happening in Essos (Ned Stark even tried to resign from being the Hand over the possibility that Robert would try to have Daenerys assassinated), that option wouldn't seem likely.



I disagree, man. A knight holds his honor high, so even though he was relieved of his duties as a kingsguard (involuntarily, would you blame him for leaving? Was he supposed to sulk around Kings Landing?), he most likely still served Joffrey up until the day he found Danny. If he had found Danny and not believed in her, perhaps he would have upheld that loyalty and did the Lannister's a favor. The only real reason he left Westeros is so that he could offer his service to another King/Queen, and he found Danaerys fitting to serve.



Spoiler



Even ser Jorah was technically serving the throne as an informer the whole time, so what is to say that Barristan would not have been doing the same? If not more or less..



Not to mention the cognitive dissonance involved in abbandoning your ENTIRE lifes devotion on a whim to serve a Queen you've never seen.. 
Though this is GoT, where dragons fly and people resurrect along with the realistic political and social constructs, so who knows where to draw the line


----------



## The Mirror

Okay. To shorten things a little: The way Arstan/Selmy was introduced in the show is questionable. Some may find it necessary for a show others not.

But to leave Belwas out is a crime against awsome character moments.


----------



## Xaios

dbrozz said:


> I disagree, man. A knight holds his honor high, so even though he was relieved of his duties as a kingsguard (involuntarily, would you blame him for leaving? Was he supposed to sulk around Kings Landing?), *he most likely still served Joffrey up until the day he found Danny. If he had found Danny and not believed in her, perhaps he would have upheld that loyalty and did the Lannister's a favor*. The only real reason he left Westeros is so that he could offer his service to another King/Queen, and he found Danaerys fitting to serve.



Addressing the bold parts specifically, that is incorrect. After he spurned Joffrey's offer of land and title, Joffrey actually sent the city guard to try and arrest Barristan. He kills several of them on his way out of the city. Those are not the actions of someone is "still holding his knight's honor high."

Book spoilers:


Spoiler



We also later discover that his removal from the Kingsguard was also orchestrated by Varys _specifically_ so that Selmy would leave to find Daenerys. If the show tried to obfuscate his true intentions, it wouldn't have made sense once that fact came to light, assuming it does as the show progresses.





dbrozz said:


> Not to mention the cognitive dissonance involved in abbandoning your ENTIRE lifes devotion on a whim to serve a Queen you've never seen..



Selmy isn't loyal specifically to the queen herself, but rather to the family. He spent a lot longer serving Aerys Targaryen than he did King Robert, and viewed his failue to protect Aerys as a personal failure, even though Aerys was quite insane. He also always had reservations about serving under Robert, even if he still performed his duties.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

dbrozz said:


> Not to mention the cognitive dissonance involved in abbandoning your ENTIRE lifes devotion on a whim to serve a Queen you've never seen..
> Though this is GoT, where dragons fly and people resurrect along with the realistic political and social constructs, so who knows where to draw the line


Well Geoffery did try to have him killed so I doubt Barriston would be a spy for the crown after that and in the books it's mentioned that he sought out Danny to sort of redeem himself in a way.


----------



## bigswifty

Xaios said:


> Addressing the bold parts specifically, that is incorrect. After he spurned Joffrey's offer of land and title, Joffrey actually sent the city guard to try and arrest Barristan. He kills several of them on his way out of the city. Those are not the actions of someone is "still holding his knight's honor high."
> 
> Book spoilers:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> We also later discover that his removal from the Kingsguard was also orchestrated by Varys _specifically_ so that Selmy would leave to find Daenerys. If the show tried to obfuscate his true intentions, it wouldn't have made sense once that fact came to light, assuming it does as the show progresses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selmy isn't loyal specifically to the queen herself, but rather to the family. He spent a lot longer serving Aerys Targaryen than he did King Robert, and viewed his failue to protect Aerys as a personal failure, even though Aerys was quite insane. He also always had reservations about serving under Robert, even if he still performed his duties.



Alright, you win! 

Well argued. I had completely forgotten that Barristan had been sought out after he lost his cloak and ended up killing a few men on his way out of the city. That pulls the plug on my whole argument 

Also the fact that he had served Aerys for most of his life, which I also hadn't considered. Should have given it a bit more thought I see now!

But fact remains, Belwas should be in the show. And if that meant disguising Barristan just to mess with viewers who hadn't read the books, then I wouldn't give 2 sh!ts! Strong Belwas is a beast


----------



## Watty

Spoiler



I feel like they really overplayed Joffery's death in tonight's episode, and I figure the internet is going to be going almost as crazy tomorrow as it did for the red wedding.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Watty said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like they really overplayed Joffery's death in tonight's episode, and I figure the internet is going to be going almost as crazy tomorrow as it did for the red wedding.





Spoiler



I disagree, it was played exactly as I think it would happen in real life. Ecstatic mother grieving over her son's dying body makes out her brother (whom she hates) as the killer without any evidence of doing so.


----------



## flexkill

Spoiler



Couldn't be happier for Joffery's fate, I HATED that little ....


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> _*Ecstatic*_ mother grieving



I do not think that means what you think it means.


----------



## flexkill

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I do not think that means what you think it means.



 I agree, I guess it could work but is very odd.


----------



## bouVIP

That face at the end is gonna haunt me for weeks D:


----------



## flexkill

bouVIP said:


> That face at the end is gonna haunt me for weeks D:



SPOILER PIC


----------



## wankerness

That's an early one, there was tons of blood by the end!

I figured they changed Asha to Yara because they already had a major character named Osha and having 2 characters with virtually the same name just makes things more confusing than they already are. They did the same thing with that shitty little Robert kid (the breast-feeding little kid who demands to see people fly), they changed his name to Robin on the show. They call him Sweetrobin half the time in the book anyway though so I don't think that one made too many people mad.

I just finished the fourth book, time to start #5! I didn't like last night's episode much because the book was actually making me laugh out loud with how much of a dick Joffrey was being at the wedding, I think that might be the one example in the entire series where they didn't amp up his dick factor for the TV show.


----------



## gunshow86de

flexkill said:


> SPOILER PIC



Just crop out the right side, and................. we're good.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Yeah big stuff and whatever in this episode but I never much cared for


Spoiler



King's Landing


 events.

Nice stuff showing the more decent/warm side of Stannis in this episode (for all his arguable hypocrisy, I think he's shown as somewhat less just in the TV show), despite however brief. Book 3 spoilers:


Spoiler



His stuff at the battle of the Wall is what I'm excited for this season, gonna be sooooooo good, fvcking Stannis finally living up to his rep and kicking ass


----------



## gunshow86de

I wanted pig-back jousting dwarves dammit!


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I do not think that means what you think it means.


I've heard/seen the word used to just describe a person full an emotion be it sad or happy, so that's why I used it that way, but yes I used the word wrong according to the dictionary.


----------



## Mike

Sadly, that was spoiled for everyone by the Console Wars South Park Trilogy, minus the wieners flopping since that part didn't happen.


----------



## gunshow86de

Mike said:


> , minus the wieners flopping since that part didn't happen.



Only if they've cut the Red Viper and Loras' after-party scene. 

Note: Not a book spoiler, nothing like that happens in the book between them. But did you see those looks they traded?

Also,


----------



## Xaios

Holy crap, that gif is hilarious! 

They did a great job of making Joffrey's wedding jackassery come to life, what with his treatment of Tyrion and the dwarves fighting (although that wasn't quite how it was like in the book). The actual death was really close to the books description, but they really went all out to make it seem real. Blood, snot and ooze emanating from his mouth and nose, and then the whites of his eyes getting all bloodshot as well.

Mad props to Jack Gleeson, who managed to bring one of the single most hateable characters ever conceived to life so convincingly. Our hatred of him was unwavering for 3+ seasons, all thanks to his performance.


----------



## flexkill

Xaios said:


> Our hatred of him was unwavering for 3+ seasons, all thanks to his performance.



Well it helps when you are born with incredible "Jerk Face". Just looking at that kid makes you want to punch him


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> The actual death was really close to the books description, but they really went all out to make it seem real. Blood, snot and ooze emanating from his mouth and nose, and then the whites of his eyes getting all bloodshot as well.





Spoiler



Could have used a bit more clawing the skin from his own throat, IMO.


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Could have used a bit more clawing the skin from his own throat, IMO.



If you're at this point in the thread, I don't think his throat-clawing is really going to be the spoiler here


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I couldn't enjoy the episode because I knew what would happen. The same thing happened with the Red Wedding. I just couldn't get into it since i had a fixed way in my head of how things played out. Brilliant episode nonetheless and just a taste of whats to come this season.


----------



## donray1527

God damn. That was crazy haha


----------



## mongey

don't go to a wedding in Westeros


----------



## pink freud

mongey said:


> don't go to a wedding in Westeros



This was a tame wedding.

/Dothraki


----------



## Alex6534

gunshow86de said:


> Only if they've cut the Red Viper and Loras' after-party scene.
> 
> Note: Not a book spoiler, nothing like that happens in the book between them. But did you see those looks they traded?
> 
> Also,



Found my new sig


----------



## gunshow86de

pink freud said:


> This was a tame wedding.
> 
> /Dothraki



+2 deaths


----------



## Alex6534

I'm quite looking forward to what could happen with Bran this season...

Oh an dragons, more dragons.


----------



## Jakke




----------



## gunshow86de

^

I feel like the real George RR would have described the food in even greater detail.


----------



## donray1527

Just one more reason to be afraid of getting married


----------



## Spectre 1

donray1527 said:


> Just one more reason to be afraid of getting married



Real marriage is a much slower death.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Spectre 1 said:


> Real marriage is a much slower death.


----------



## wankerness

Hey now, Natalie Dormer is so gorgeous it would be totally worth dying horribly just to almost reach first base with her!


----------



## AliceLG

I don't remember the last time I joyfully screamed so much in front of a screen, must have been a soccer game or something. But  YEEEEEEEES! DIIIIIIEEEEEEE MOTHERFVCKER DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE! 

It was a pretty cathartic scene.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> I've heard/seen the word used to just describe a person full an emotion be it sad or happy, so that's why I used it that way, but yes I used the word wrong according to the dictionary.


 
Nah, you probably haven't. Not from people who knew how to use the word properly, at any rate. More than likely the word you were thinking of is hysteric or hysterical.


----------



## Mike

So what theories do you guys have as to whodunit and why?


----------



## flint757

I'm thinking the queen or the jester since he grabbed Sansa and said, 'she needed to leave now'. Or maybe Sansa, although that'd be a leap.

Haven't read the books.

[EDIT]

Sansa did hand him the goblet though. The one they're blaming I don't think did it. He's too smart and tends to play the political game pretty well. I think he'd also know that he'd be the first to be accused in that scenario. Now that I think about it Sansa is actually feeling more like a possibility.


----------



## crg123

AliceLG said:


> I don't remember the last time I joyfully screamed so much in front of a screen, must have been a soccer game or something. But  YEEEEEEEES! DIIIIIIEEEEEEE MOTHERFVCKER DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE!
> 
> It was a pretty cathartic scene.



Geto Boys - Die ............ (Still) (HQ and uncensored) - YouTube lol

The chorus of this was in my head while watching him choke haha.....


----------



## pink freud

Mike said:


> So what theories do you guys have as to whodunit and why?





Spoiler



It was Olenna. Sansa's necklace had jewels hanging in an evenly spaced out arrangement. Olenna goes to stroke Sansa's hair and then lightly picks up the necklace off of Sansa's neck (to appear to examine it). When Olenna's hand moves away you can see one of the jewels is missing. Just as Tyrion picks up Joffrey's goblet for the last time to bring _to_ Joffrey the camera frames on Olenna for a noticable pause.


----------



## flint757

I'll need to re-watch, but that being true when did it end up in the cup?


----------



## Xaios

Here's a later shot of Joffrey post-dead: http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/joffrey-dead.jpg?w=882


----------



## flint757

so who's next in line?


----------



## gunshow86de

flint757 said:


> so who's next in line?



Joffrey's little brother Tommen. Who is 9 years old in the books, and has a pet kitten named Ser Pounce.

Naturally, for the show he looks like he's in his early 20's.


----------



## Mike

looks more 15-17 to me lol

maybe younger here:


----------



## Xaios

Don't forget, they made all the characters in the show about 3 years older than they were in the books.

One thing that last night's episode really reminded me was how they consistently manage to put all their production budget on the screen. The craftsmanship for some of the set pieces are really ornate. The set designers and builders obviously take a *lot* of pride in their work.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I just read in the paper this morning that the swords they use are proper forged weapons made in Ireland that cost thousands to make. They don't take the easy route on anything.


----------



## tripguitar

tommen is calimed as another lannister/baratheon child right? even though hes probably another lannister/lannister? i havent read the books and dont remember them speaking too much of cersei's other children....


----------



## Xaios

tripguitar said:


> tommen is calimed as another lannister/baratheon child right? even though hes probably another lannister/lannister? i havent read the books and dont remember them speaking too much of cersei's other children....



Yes, Jaime is the father of all three. If you recall season 2, Tyrion and Cersei have a conversation in which he says that Cersei "beat the odds," in that Joffrey was the only one of her kids who inherited the sadist tendencies of being inbred, while Tommen and Myrcella are actually quite gentle in their disposition.


----------



## gunshow86de

Mike said:


> looks more 15-17 to me lol
> [/IMG]



Still, definitely not a 9 year old who is obsessed with his kittens. One of which he named Ser Pounce. 



Spoiler



It seems pretty important to the story that he be a young, innocent child. The way Tywin passes all his decrees/laws without Tommen reading them, because Tommen thinks it's "fun" to use the king's seal. Tommen cannot consummate the marriage to Margaery because of his age. I also think him being so young contributes to many of the poor decisions Cersei makes. She sees her "sweet boy" being used by others for power.


----------



## wankerness

pink freud said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It was Olenna. Sansa's necklace had jewels hanging in an evenly spaced out arrangement. Olenna goes to stroke Sansa's hair and then lightly picks up the necklace off of Sansa's neck (to appear to examine it). When Olenna's hand moves away you can see one of the jewels is missing. Just as Tyrion picks up Joffrey's goblet for the last time to bring _to_ Joffrey the camera frames on Olenna for a noticable pause.



In the book, it was not directly stated but it was clearly implied that it was done by (OBVIOUSLY SPOILER FROM BOOK, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK !)



Spoiler



Olenna and Littlefinger, and the Jester guy was sent by Littlefinger to take Sansa away with him.



Based on how many clues they had on the show last episode that weren't in the book and given that the show isn't restricted by how you only know what the POV characters are thinking/hearing, my guess is they'll be very direct about revealing who did it.


----------



## wankerness

gunshow86de said:


> Still, definitely not a 9 year old who is obsessed with his kittens. One of which he named Ser Pounce.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty important to the story that he be a young, innocent child. The way Tywin passes all his decrees/laws without Tommen reading them, because Tommen thinks it's "fun" to use the king's seal. Tommen cannot consummate the marriage to Margaery because of his age. I also think him being so young contributes to many of the poor decisions Cersei makes. She sees her "sweet boy" being used by others for power.



This character really has to be pre-pubescent, I think, and if the actor isn't this might actually be a big problem story-wise. Unlike pretty much every other character whose age was massively increased on the show (all of the Stark kids, Margaery and Daenerys look at LEAST 5 years older than they are in the books and many of the actors are way more than that...Natalie Dormer is 32 and her character is like 14 in the book)


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> In the book, it was not directly stated but it was clearly implied that it was done by (OBVIOUSLY SPOILER FROM BOOK, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK !)
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Olenna and Littlefinger, and the Jester guy was sent by Littlefinger to take Sansa away with him.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on how many clues they had on the show last episode that weren't in the book and given that the show isn't restricted by how you only know what the POV characters are thinking/hearing, my guess is they'll be very direct about revealing who did it.





Spoiler



Yeah, the jester is actually Sir Dontos whom Joffrey nearly killed earlier in the series for being drunk while on duty; probably like, mid-season one or early season two.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## Mike

gunshow86de said:


> Still, definitely not a 9 year old who is obsessed with his kittens. One of which he named Ser Pounce.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It seems pretty important to the story that he be a young, innocent child. The way Tywin passes all his decrees/laws without Tommen reading them, because Tommen thinks it's "fun" to use the king's seal. Tommen cannot consummate the marriage to Margaery because of his age. I also think him being so young contributes to many of the poor decisions Cersei makes. She sees her "sweet boy" being used by others for power.



I can agree the age thing definitely may mess some things up in that regard. Peer pressure can get to anyone though especially when they want to please people, fit in, and do what people tell them is right. The Tommen in the show is still a very sweet and innocent boy who seems very impressionable.


----------



## Xaios

wankerness said:


> This character really has to be pre-pubescent, I think, and if the actor isn't this might actually be a big problem story-wise. Unlike pretty much every other character whose age was massively increased on the show (all of the Stark kids, Margaery and Daenerys look at LEAST 5 years older than they are in the books and many of the actors are way more than that...Natalie Dormer is 32 and her character is like 14 in the book)



Margaery is 16 in the books, which would make her 19 in the show. I'd say Natalie Dormer can still pull off 19.

I do agree with your point about Tommen though, the book goes to great lengths to emphasize that many of his character traits exist _precisely_ because of his age. I'd hazard to say that, of all the child characters in the book, he's really the only one that actually acts his age _in the book_. Every other child character benefited from the increase in age, because it makes their traits more realistic for their age. The reverse is true with Tommen. It'll take some clever writing on the production side of things to get around that.


----------



## crg123

wankerness said:


> ...Natalie Dormer is 32 and her character is like 14 in the book)



My world has been shattered. Totally thought that actress was my age (23) or younger.


----------



## wankerness

Xaios said:


> Margaery is 16 in the books, which would make her 19 in the show. I'd say Natalie Dormer can still pull off 19.
> 
> I do agree with your point about Tommen though, the book goes to great lengths to emphasize that many of his character traits exist _precisely_ because of his age. I'd hazard to say that, of all the child characters in the book, he's really the only one that actually acts his age _in the book_. Every other child character benefited from the increase in age, because it makes their traits more realistic for their age. The reverse is true with Tommen. It'll take some clever writing on the production side of things to get around that.



Margery's 16 in the book? The way she's written and how they exclusively refer to her as "little queen" etc and she seems way less "schemy" than she is on the show, I just thought the character was more like 14. I guess you largely view her through the eyes of Cersei, though, who hates everyone. And yes, Natalie Dormer definitely can pull off 19.


----------



## Xaios

wankerness said:


> Margery's 16 in the book? The way she's written and how they exclusively refer to her as "little queen" etc and she seems way less "schemy" than she is on the show, I just thought the character was more like 14.



I dunno dude, it's been a while since I've read them, but Margaery seemed pretty schemey to me when reading, just not evil. She's like a younger benevolent version of Cersei. She craves the title of queen and enjoys the adulation of the masses, but doesn't have Cersei's lust for the power that comes with it.


----------



## gunshow86de

One more Jaime running .gif


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash




----------



## SKoG

gunshow86de said:


> One more Jaime running .gif



Man, this just gave me an image in my head of Jaime rushing to undo his belt and drop his pants with his golden hand, cursing, then struggling with his left hand.


----------



## st2012

Didn't realize these dudes were actually the ones performing at the reception, pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3QW8PVyyNM


----------



## wankerness

st2012 said:


> Didn't realize these dudes were actually the ones performing at the reception, pretty cool.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3QW8PVyyNM



It was funny seeing them on the show, I was like "was that...." and then it was confirmed when they played over the end credits! (It's the band Sigur Ros, a really really damn good postrock band from Iceland)

Last ep is sure putting people in a tizzy about the rape! I don't recall it being so one-sided in the book, but the circumstances were rather different (I think he had just arrived back in town at that point?).


----------



## SKoG

I'm loving the Arya & Hound scenes so much, my favorite parts of the season so far. I wonder how honestly they're going to follow the books in how much time they spend together. I imagine a Behind the Scenes feature or blooper reel would be hilarious.


----------



## 777timesgod

The biggest problem with this series is that when you tell people that you watch it they don't just think "Oh, he likes quality shows with great actors and script", they also think "Ugh, He likes to watch endless violence and sex scenes in the middle of the night..."


----------



## flavenstein

^ That's interesting, I've never had that experience. It seems like almost everyone I know also watches the show, and those that don't seem to regard the show in a positive light based on its success and acclaim.


----------



## AliceLG

777timesgod said:


> The biggest problem with this series is that when you tell people that you watch it they don't just think "Oh, he likes quality shows with great actors and script", they also think "Ugh, He likes to watch endless violence and sex scenes in the middle of the night..."



Oh you say that like it's a bad thing


----------



## AliceLG

wankerness said:


> It was funny seeing them on the show, I was like "was that...." and then it was confirmed when they played over the end credits! (It's the band Sigur Ros, a really really damn good postrock band from Iceland)
> 
> Last ep is sure putting people in a tizzy about the rape! I don't recall it being so one-sided in the book, but the circumstances were rather different (I think he had just arrived back in town at that point?).



If I remember correctly it was pure incestuous-yet-consensual sex in the books. And yes, he was just back in town. I wonder why the writers felt this would be a better idea. As far as the story has gone I think this was the last time they were intimate in any way, but that was an extreme way to close that door


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^George RR Martin had to post about it saying it was consensual in the books and he had no input on the change in that scene. Its caused quite an uproar. I can't say I'm to happy with it because he's one of my favourite POVs after his "redemption" arc so painting him in a bad light kind of negates his actions in S3.


----------



## Veldar

^ Thats why so many people are whoring it up.

Also,


----------



## wankerness

Game of Thrones rape: Director Alex Graves says the sex "becomes consensual."

The director's statements on it have made people even madder, haha. I guess he intended it to be hot and be consensual by the end but basically no one who's seen it got that impression. I know I didn't! Maybe they'll reshoot it to include further footage where she starts liking it and use it as the opener to next episode.


----------



## Xaios

Tywin's scene with Tommen right before her and Jaime's hatef_u_ck where he tells Tommen what makes a good king was great. Especially when he says "Joffrey was not a wise king, Joffrey was not a good king," right in front of Cersei to twist the knife.


----------



## pink freud

Oh lawl:


----------



## 3074326

wankerness said:


> Game of Thrones rape: Director Alex Graves says the sex "becomes consensual."
> 
> The director's statements on it have made people even madder, haha. I guess he intended it to be hot and be consensual by the end but basically no one who's seen it got that impression. I know I didn't! Maybe they'll reshoot it to include further footage where she starts liking it and use it as the opener to next episode.



I find it hilarious that people are offended by something that happened on a fantasy show on HBO, of all networks.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^The majority of people are offended because its such a drastic devotion from the source material and paints Jaime in a very bad light which ultimately negates his redemption arc from last season not to mention its a pretty disgusting change.


----------



## 3074326

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^The majority of people are offended because its such a drastic devotion from the source material and paints Jaime in a very bad light which ultimately negates his redemption arc from last season not to mention its a pretty disgusting change.



The majority of people I've seen who are offended haven't read the books. I'm not saying you're wrong.


----------



## The Mirror

Problem is, that the scene does make absolutely no sense in the series.

In the book this scene is the first time Jaime meets Cersei again as he enters the city right after Joffreys murder.

From that point on he disassociates himself from her.

In the series that already happened and now he is trying to get back to her? What? 

That's one of the few really, really bad decisions made by the producers of the show.

And as someone stated with a link: It is no rape. Cersei definitely wanted it, too.


----------



## Xaios

The Mirror said:


> In the series that already happened



What? No it hasn't. She gave him some cold shoulder, but nothing _nearly_ to the degree of what happens afterwards in the book.



The Mirror said:


> and now he is trying to get back to her? What?



Nooo, he's just wrestling with all his conflicting emotions and it's getting him all hot and bothered.


----------



## wankerness

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^The majority of people are offended because its such a drastic devotion from the source material and paints Jaime in a very bad light which ultimately negates his redemption arc from last season not to mention its a pretty disgusting change.



Now people are even more mad when they read that that was NOT intended as a rape scene, and the director thought he filmed the scene and directed the actors in a way that made it look like she wanted it. THAT I definitely understand being offended by. So, it's like, the initial anger was that they changed it to be a rape from the books which messed with the continuity, which was nothing out of the ordinary, they get mad whenever there's a considerable change in events. But the secondary anger was that it looks exactly like a rape and we have now been told that it was supposed to look like Cersei was into it, and thus it's adding to the grand history of cultural dialect of no means yes (see also: a very large number of movies made before 1970, key examples being the likes of Goldfinger and Gone with the Wind). 

On first viewing I saw that as a rape scene, plain and simple. And I was expecting it to end with her getting into it as that was how it happened in the books, and thus I was specifically looking for evidence of her getting into it through the whole scene and didn't see any...when that scene ended I was just like "WELL, there's a change!!" I can only imagine anyone who hadn't read the books saw it as even LESS consensual as they didn't have the preconceived notion that it was supposed to be. I think if they'd said "yes it was supposed to be a rape scene we changed the books" people would have gotten over it and waited for next week to see how they changed the fallout, but now it's this big ugly thing where the director comes off as having the sexual politics of someone from the first half of the 20th century. I wonder if they'll change future episodes to reflect the fact it totally came off as a rape or if they'll just act like it was filmed in a non-rapey way and try to sweep it under the rug.

Basically I don't think there'd still be any outrage about this at all if the director hadn't spoken up in defense of it. We'll see how they deal with it next episode.


----------



## wankerness

3074326 said:


> I find it hilarious that people are offended by something that happened on a fantasy show on HBO, of all networks.



Did you read the article? They're not mad that there's a rape, they're mad that the show is presenting consensual sex and rape as being indistinguishable, which understandably is rather upsetting to many female viewers. What kind of show it happened on is pretty irrelevant when that's the problem.


----------



## bigswifty

This thread will turn into rape debate for a page or two..

I do think they had established the Jaime/Cercei falling out already, whereas in the books it would be occurring right about now. This could play a greater role in why Cercei becomes even more crazy toward Jaime, but I didn't like how they played it out. It did come off as rape, and I saw no consent or change of view from Cercei at all during the scene (and I was looking for it).

That being said, I think people should relax about this a bit. They have banged before (INCEST!), have 3 bastards, love to hate each other and vice versa.. Not to mention this is a TV show based on a book depicting a fictional world where these things are common as day and night (not the incest, but the rape). 

And I think Cercei deserved a good rape. She is a hag and deserves everything that comes her way. I just wish it hadn't painted Jaime in a darker way.

But I do agree, this was one of the only things I thought the writers handled very poorly.. It should have been exactly as it was in the books.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

dbrozz said:


> And I think Cercei deserved a good rape.


Nobody deserves rape, that said it wasn't rape a badly planned out scene yes, rape no. It would've been more apparent if the scene went on for 5 or 10 seconds more but maybe there'll be a continuation of the scene in the next episode.


----------



## bigswifty

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Nobody deserves rape, that said it wasn't rape a badly planned out scene yes, rape no. It would've been more apparent if the scene went on for 5 or 10 seconds more but maybe there'll be a continuation of the scene in the next episode.



Hey! I am strictly speaking as an outside viewer toward a fictional character.
In real life, absolutely no woman (or man) deserves to be raped. Under any circumstances. 
Just thought I'd clear that up


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

dbrozz said:


> Hey! I am strictly speaking as an outside viewer toward a fictional character.
> In real life, absolutely no woman (or man) deserves to be raped. Under any circumstances.
> Just thought I'd clear that up


I see where your coming from.


----------



## donray1527

I'm still blinded with joy that Jaff is dead. i could care less about some sub-raping...... But how badass is Dany becoming?


----------



## The Mirror

Xaios said:


> What? No it hasn't. She gave him some cold shoulder, but nothing _nearly_ to the degree of what happens afterwards in the book.



Even if it will be much stronger from now on in the series, too, it just does not fit. 

In the books that moment only worked because Jaime and Cersei hat absolutely no interaction since Jaime was captured. 

Imo they should have either kept the book timeline, with Jaime arriving after Joffreys death, switch the sex scene to the first time Jaime met Cersei in the series (even if it wouldn't be that, let's say, intense) or just skip the scene at all. 
For me, it just did not work. It seemed totally out of place. 
Not as much as the strange cannibal-wilding-clan seems out of place for me, but nevertheless.


PS: I hope this will not lead to a rape debate. Neither in the series, nor in the books it was rape.


----------



## wankerness

Here's a more detailed article about it:

Game of Thrones Stumbles Into Rape - Christopher Orr - The Atlantic

The tone of this is pretty hysterical, though. It whines about how the show is always taking the books and making it more EXTREME, but the reverse is often true. In the specific examples it mentions, it is, but there are far more examples of the book dialing it down a notch. The book has zillions of rapes and murders and way more retarded sex scenes. "He entered her" has to be one of the top 3 most common phrases used in the books. I thank the TV gods we haven't seen much of anything of the Mountain's handiwork, which is constantly discussed in the books. And just read that goddam excerpt of how the cersei/jaime scene goes down in the books! That's like a second-rate Harlequin romance novel. Bad stuff, haha. Plus I'm not sure why anyone would complain about the first Daenerys/Drogo scene being changed to a rape in the show, that made way more sense in terms of human reactions (immature little girl sold off to huge scary guy and forcibly deflowered from behind - in the book, she totally loves it and it's written as idiotically as the Jaime/Cersei scene!), I think there would have been more shocked reactions from non-book readers if it HAD looked like she loved it.


----------



## MailMan

wankerness said:


> "He entered her" has to be one of the top 3 most common phrases used in the books.


"There was a sickening _crunch_" must be my favourite phrase. From bashed in heads to destroyed kneecaps, it works wonderfully in so many situations...

Still, you are totally right.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

PETER DINKLAGE


----------



## gunshow86de

I don't know what the hell is going on with Craster's, but at least we have Ser Pounce!


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Frost Maul 

http://i.imgur.com/aQ2LhwX.jpg


----------



## Xaios

Last night's episode was killer. The scene between Margaery and Tommen was unsettling as hell. I didn't think it would top that, but then... white walkers! Their Fortress of Solitude thing looked _metal_.

This episode definitely made some interesting changes compared to the book, and some of them for the better. I don't think the book ever really delved into what happened to the deserters after they rebelled at Crasters. I think the book just assumes that everyone there killed each other (aside from Sam, as it was his POV scene). Bran getting caught by the deserters also gives him something a bit more substantial to do on their way further north.

Book spoiler:


Spoiler



It appears that they've gotten rid of Coldhands and his elk, they should have already shown up if he was gonna be in the story. I do hope they still make an appearance, he was a fascinating character.



One change I'm not sure how I feel about is Sam revealing to Jon that he encountered Bran heading north. I think it would have been better for Jon's motivation and character had he never known.

So, will Locke follow through with his mission to off Jon? Or will he get swept up in the cause and turn into one of the good guys?

Really solid episode all around, loved it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one other thing. Mereen looked _amazing_.


----------



## gunshow86de

I'm curious if the Night's King is going to become a significant part of the show's story line? And yes, their base was pretty awesome.


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> EDIT: Oh yeah, one other thing. Mereen looked _amazing_.










_insert Iron Maiden logo_


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

BIG SPOILER!

http://i.imgur.com/G1pdcan.png


----------



## Xaios

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> BIG SPOILER!
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/G1pdcan.png



Oh, damn!


----------



## sakeido

I really didn't like last night's episode... weakest one I can remember in a long, loooooong time. At least the show has already done 10,000 times more with White Walkers than the books have. 

They are really starting to diverge from the source material in some aspects and I'm not quite sure if it is all working.


----------



## geese_com

sakeido said:


> I really didn't like last night's episode... weakest one I can remember in a long, loooooong time. At least the show has already done 10,000 times more with White Walkers than the books have.
> 
> They are really starting to diverge from the source material in some aspects and I'm not quite sure if it is all working.



I wasn't too thrilled about last night's episode either. I haven't read the books though.


----------



## bouVIP

Spoiler



So is that baby turning into a white walker, which what I assumed happens, canon from the books? or just made up for the show?



Also super sad about Hodor


----------



## geese_com

bouVIP said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So is that baby turning into a white walker, which what I assumed happens, canon from the books? or just made up for the show?
> 
> 
> 
> Also super sad about Hodor



I felt bad for him too during that scene!


----------



## gunshow86de

Spoiler



In the next episode, Ser Pounce heads beyond the wall to save Hodor![/ spoiler]


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

I seek justice for Hodor



JoshuaVonFlash said:


> BIG SPOILER!
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/G1pdcan.png



WAT

edit: related to previous spoiler link, made me chuckle

http://imgur.com/a/UlXmf


----------



## MBMoreno

That scene with Margaery had me Pouncing in my bed...


----------



## Xaios

Captain Shoggoth said:


> edit: related to previous spoiler link, made me chuckle
> 
> Game of Thrones Show Watchers vs Book Readers - Imgur



Haha, that was great.


----------



## flavenstein

Xaios said:


> This episode definitely made some interesting changes compared to the book, and some of them for the better. I don't think the book ever really delved into what happened to the deserters after they rebelled at Crasters



IIRC from the book


Spoiler



Coldhands gets rid of the guys at Craster's keep. What I think happened is that Bran wasn't going to meat Leaf until the very end of the season, so they made up this little diversion at Craster's so that we don't have ~5 episodes without Bran (kinda like how they showed extra Reek in season 3). Then they will have Coldhands come in and kill the mutineers at Craster's just like in the book, then Bran and co. will continue as usual. This would also prevent Jon from meeting Bran, which would be a significant diversion I think.



Book readers' reaction from last night:


----------



## bigswifty

I thought the episode was pretty cool.
The diversions were well done for the most part, and the ending was:





It is cool how Locke has unclear motives. He is a sellsword with no real master anymore (Bolton, perhaps, but up at the wall who cares?) so it could go either way with him. 

As far as the Jon/Bran stories go so far, I wish Sam hadn't told Jon about Bran. Regardless though, I really hope their paths do not cross, because it could be kind of awkward.. "HEY!.. well now we need to split up again and get back to business".  Also, it just wouldn't be in Game of Thrones fashion.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

geese_com said:


> I felt bad for him too during that scene!


 First time the book readers are surprised.


----------



## SKoG

Spoiler



It's been a while since I've read ASoS, but seeing how they pace the different arcs in the remainder of this season will be interesting. I'm not second guessing them (yet), but it seems like certain storylines are advancing too quickly or too slowly for six more episodes. 

Obviously they have to make considerations for the entertainment value of each individual episode and spread the "highs" and "lows" out. But when we just got the 4th episode and I see the 8th episode is "The Mountain and the Viper" (episode title), that's probably not much significant Tyrion content until his trial and the following major stuff, unless they just keep spreading out ~3 minute scenes of Tyrion per episode leading up to it.

There can't be much Bran, Arya or Sansa content left for six more episodes. Daenerys slows her things down, will she be able to carry episodes? Jaime came back earlier compared to the books and they skipped some of his content anyway, so how much more will he have to do?

Is 70% of the rest of the season going to be the Wall fight and 25% Tyrion's trial and the following events, and 5% looking in on Sansa? Or are they going to dip into _A Feast for Crows_? Or am I forgetting something else?


----------



## Xaios

SKoG said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Or are they going to dip into _A Feast for Crows_? Or am I forgetting something else?





Spoiler



That's not a bad idea, actually. With A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons running concurrently, that would make for really dense Season 5 + 6 viewing. Moving some of Brienne and Danaerys' plot points into Season 4 (which they could conceivably do now, based on how much their stories have been compressed thus far this season) could help air them out. On the other hand, I guess with Dany, we do still have the fallout from her discovery that Jorah was a spy for the Small Council to deal with. Interesting that they postponed that discovery to post-Mereen Conquest. Whether that ends up being a good or bad change, we won't know until later.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

flavenstein said:


> IIRC from the book
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Coldhands gets rid of the guys at Craster's keep. What I think happened is that Bran wasn't going to meat Leaf until the very end of the season, so they made up this little diversion at Craster's so that we don't have ~5 episodes without Bran (kinda like how they showed extra Reek in season 3). Then they will have Coldhands come in and kill the mutineers at Craster's just like in the book, then Bran and co. will continue as usual. This would also prevent Jon from meeting Bran, which would be a significant diversion I think.



and INSTANTLY the hype levels increase

disgonbegud.jpg


----------



## Lorcan Ward

They are flying through the books. This season is going to get very far into AFFC and ADWD. 

The ending of episode 4 left my jaw on the floor. After 5 books it was a bit of a shock to get the first glimpse of the far North from the TV show. I can't say I'm to happy with the show overtaking the books but thats George's fault.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## Defi

I have read all the books and I for one am fine with the TV series digressing. It makes it more interesting to watch.

That being said, the ending to last weeks episode didn't raise any "I've read the books and this is wat" alarms that have been mentioned prior.

Maybe I'm not good at game of thrones.


----------



## Veldar

I think a good comparison for Game of thrones would be the Scott Pilgrim movie, it stayed close to the source material at the start and then went further away as the movie continued.

Also I spend my whole day playing the online game.


----------



## Defi

One thing has bugged me (Spoilers if you haven't read books):



Spoiler



why is the hound still alive? 

edit: or whatever still "the hound" if you subscribe to the theory of his living


----------



## gunshow86de

Defi said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> why is the hound still alive?
> 
> edit: or whatever still "the hound" if you subscribe to the theory of his living





Spoiler



Because he's awesome. I could watch an entire series on the adventures of Arya and the Hound. #teamfvcktheking

And I think the hints of him being alive in the book were less than subtle.


----------



## flexkill

Boooooring!!!


----------



## Defi

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Because he's awesome. I could watch an entire series on the adventures of Arya and the Hound. #teamfvcktheking
> 
> And I think the hints of him being alive in the book were less than subtle.





Spoiler



he is my favorite character on the show and books hands down. I too agree he lives on in the books, but regardless, my main question is why didn't the inn scene unfold as it did in the book. i was cringing during it. i guess time will tell soon how they'll meet that arc with the book's


----------



## naw38

Tonight's episode was comedy gold. 

- Margaery acting like she's grieving for Joffrey, and Cersei being all "I know you're lying but I don't give a .... about anything, I'm real sad-bitchy these days."
- "Your friend is dead, and Merryn Trant is not. Because Trant had armour, and a big ....ing sword." Hahahaha I laughed for ages at that. Awesome delivery.
- Some guy got stabbed through the mouth.


----------



## gunshow86de

Don't forget about Hodor having to choke a bitch!


----------



## Xaios

Indeed, Jon went full on Mortal Kombat finishing move on him there. Interesting that they got Bran worging into Hodor out of the way this early, that happens quite a bit later into the books.

It was pretty funny how Arya didn't even have the strength to pierce through the Hound's armor. 

EDIT: Also, Lysa's howling. Oh God.


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> It was pretty funny how Arya didn't even have the strength to pierce through the Hound's armor.



In Arya's defense, her swordsmanship lessons only consisted of dancing with a wooden sword and sticking them with the pointy end.


----------



## pink freud

Xaios said:


> EDIT: Also, Lysa's howling. Oh God.


Poor Sansa, can't get any rest and soon she will have to deal with


Spoiler



the little bed-wetter


.


----------



## SKoG

naw38 said:


> - Some guy got stabbed through the mouth.



Some guy? You should shut your fookin' hole, mate, he was a fookin' legend in Gin Alley. _A fookin' legend_.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^So far he's been one of the best actors on the show IMO. His facial expressions and tone of voice was perfect. I wish he had a bigger part but he played his perfect.


----------



## wankerness

Defi said:


> One thing has bugged me (Spoilers if you haven't read books):
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> why is the hound still alive?
> 
> edit: or whatever still "the hound" if you subscribe to the theory of his living





Spoiler



Cause the point at which he "dies" could really happen anywhere, they could go on indefinitely with these kinds of scenes, they're just stalling with that plotline. As soon as he does Arya has to go off to the assassin temple or whatever and clearly they don't want to do that yet. Fine with me, I like all their scenes together even if so far they haven't progressed the plot in any way at all.



The problem with the show now is that there are too damn many plotlines, they can only show us like one or two scenes of about half the characters per episode and it's just getting too sketchy and loose. Right now we have:

Sansa/Littlefinger/Lysa
Kings Landing aka Tyrion/Cersei/Tywin/Jaime/Margaery/Tommen/Red Viper/his sister, all of whom are usually given scenes separate from each other
Daenerys
Bran
Arya/The Hound
Jon Snow
Sam (sometimes overlapping with Jon at least)
Stannis/Melisandre/Davos
Ramsey Snow/Theon (Reek)
Brienne/Pod


Spoiler



(with them on the road already it seems like they might end the season with them encountering Lady Stoneheart, which is like all the way at the end of the fourth book, but they barely do anything else important before then!)



And who knows if we'll get more stuff this season with Theon's sister trying to save him, she did leave in the last episode of last season so it seems like we should check in with her some time this year! I certainly would think so with all the tons of Greyjoy action required for next season and what has to happen with Balon. Plus some of these plotlines splinter even further.


----------



## Xaios

pink freud said:


> Poor Sansa, can't get any rest and soon she will have to deal with
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the little bed-wetter
> 
> 
> .



You've gotta feel bad for Sansa. She goes from being betrothed to Joffrey, the greatest shit in all the land, to married to Tyrion, a dwarf who loves another woman, to being promised to Robin, a crazy epileptic child who still sucks his mother's teat. And on top of that, Lysa believes that Littlefinger, aka THE MAN SHE JUST MARRIED, has been ....ing Sansa behind her back. 

Although, I will admit that I liked how Lysa segued Catelyn Stark having a sweet tooth and "always going for the sweetest thing" to blaming her for chasing after Brandon Stark in spite of Littlefinger's childhood devotion. That was a neat bit of turnabout.



Spoiler



Man, it's gonna get MIGHTY uncomfortable up in the Eyrie once Littlefinger actually does kiss Sansa.


----------



## bouVIP

related


----------



## donray1527

That would be the most metal job ever: Modern Day Blacksmith


----------



## naw38

gunshow86de said:


> Don't forget about Hodor having to choke a bitch!



Nah, I was sad about that because I was hoping for more camaraderie between Locke and Ramsay. I can't even remember what happened to Vargo Hoat in the books.


----------



## flexkill

gunshow86de said:


> Don't forget about Hodor having to choke a bitch!



By far the best part!


----------



## MailMan

naw38 said:


> Nah, I was sad about that because I was hoping for more camaraderie between Locke and Ramsay. I can't even remember what happened to Vargo Hoat in the books.


He was


Spoiler



chopped up limb by limb by the Mountain in Harrenhal.


I agree that the Arya-Hound scenes are great. She also had that kind of chemistry with Tywin. Much like the Bronn-Tyrion scenes. I hope we'll see something of the sort in the upcoming adventures of Brienne and Pod...


----------



## donray1527

Yeah i forgot she was like his servant for a while.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## Xaios

Pod bumbling around on the horse was pretty funny. And his character moment when he revealed how he killed the kingsguard to save Tyrion was a good character moment. Shows that the act of taking a life has stuck with him and even haunts him a bit, despite it being the obviously right thing to do.


----------



## goherpsNderp

Xaios said:


> Pod bumbling around on the horse was pretty funny. And his character moment when he revealed how he killed the kingsguard to save Tyrion was a good character moment. Shows that the act of taking a life has stuck with him and even haunts him a bit, despite it being the obviously right thing to do.



yep and you could tell it made Brienne think about it for a second that perhaps she's gotten to the point where she kills without thinking. it was PERFECT that she couldn't get her armor off right then.

i have high hopes for them, but as usual, that means they're likely going to get killed off soon. GoT is a harsh mistress...

EDIT: I DON'T READ THE BOOKS DON'T SPOIL ME BRO


----------



## Xaios

goherpsNderp said:


> EDIT: I DON'T READ THE BOOKS DON'T SPOIL ME BRO


----------



## gunshow86de

Xaios said:


> Spoiler



FTFY


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

A fookin' legend.


----------



## donray1527

I did a trade with a certain famous guitarist recently and he sent me some custom picks for shiggles and one of them has his bands logo on one side and the Starks family logo (wolf) on the back. It's my new favorite pick haha


----------



## source field

Damn..


----------



## Xaios

I usually loathe Doge memes, but that's pretty damn funny.


----------



## donray1527

Damn. Trial by combat... Well there goes another character I like.


----------



## gunshow86de

Spoiler



How do you feel about the Shae "treatment?" I felt like they did a really fantastic job building their relationship and showing how much she meant to Tyrion. Then they chickened out at the end of last season/early this season, and made it seem like she was a jealous/jilted lover. Her showing up to testify at the trial was still pretty devastating, but the impact was not quite as strong. In the book, Tyrion realizes all she ever cared about was his money. In the show, it seems like she was just angry with him for sending her a way, but that she still (or at least at one point) loved him.


----------



## SKoG

donray1527 said:


> Damn. Trial by combat... Well there goes another character I like.



Remember the last time Tyrion had a trial by combat? At The Eyrie, he made a new BFF in Bronn and it was a happy ending!



gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about the Shae "treatment?" I felt like they did a really fantastic job building their relationship and showing how much she meant to Tyrion. Then they chickened out at the end of last season/early this season, and made it seem like she was a jealous/jilted lover. Her showing up to testify at the trial was still pretty devastating, but the impact was not quite as strong. In the book, Tyrion realizes all she ever cared about was his money. In the show, it seems like she was just angry with him for sending her a way, but that she still (or at least at one point) loved him.





Spoiler



I'll reserve judgement on this part until the bedroom scene plays out and we see what kind of dialog they have there. We'll also have to see how much they tie her and her testimony to Tywin's history of shaming and embarrassing Tyrion with his "whores."


----------



## bouVIP

Was anyone else scared when Ramsay told Reek to undress? Thought they were about to show some sick mutilation D:


----------



## wankerness

bouVIP said:


> Was anyone else scared when Ramsay told Reek to undress? Thought they were about to show some sick mutilation D:



I expected them to and was surprised they didn't, since that actor previously did full frontal on the show. It would have been dramatically symmetrical!

That whole thing seemed completely pointless. It was like, Yara has big epic scene where she announces she's going to save him, then she gets there and doesn't save him and decides he sucks, just like her dad said in the first place. They could have saved a few scenes by just having her go "you're right dad, he sucks" last season instead of ending up with the exact same result. The only point I can see of this is if something further happens with her on the way back that couldn't have happened if she'd just been on the iron islands the whole time.


Spoiler



I'm not sure what they'll do with Balon dying since it's just sort of mentioned offhand by other characters in book 3 and you never see any of the iron islands at all.


I'm sort of hoping they just ditch all that kingsmoot crap though, because who cares, and also do we really need another several major new characters and at least one or two separate plotlines associated with them? (I haven't read book 5 yet so maybe that all leads to something)


----------



## narad

So tempted to read the green right now...


----------



## gunshow86de

wankerness said:


> I'm sort of hoping they just ditch all that kingsmoot crap though, because who cares, and also do we really need another several major new characters and at least one or two separate plotlines associated with them? (I haven't read book 5 yet so maybe that all leads to something)





Spoiler



You mean ditching a POV and fan favorite character (Victarion) who has a story arc that is supposed to intersect with Daenerys? I really hope they don't cut it. Besides personally liking the character, I feel that would basically be a huge spoiler for book readers that Victarion's story line is worthless (since the show producers know how the story will end).


----------



## MailMan

wankerness said:


> I'm sort of hoping they just ditch all that kingsmoot crap though, because who cares, and also do we really need another several major new characters and at least one or two separate plotlines associated with them? (I haven't read book 5 yet so maybe that all leads to something)


I seriously doubt they will ditch it. If you read book 5, you will find that it actually _does_ lead to something  (or someone )

(edit: damn... should've read all the posts before I wrote this one)


----------



## Xaios

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feel about the Shae "treatment?" I felt like they did a really fantastic job building their relationship and showing how much she meant to Tyrion. Then they chickened out at the end of last season/early this season, and made it seem like she was a jealous/jilted lover. Her showing up to testify at the trial was still pretty devastating, but the impact was not quite as strong. In the book, Tyrion realizes all she ever cared about was his money. In the show, it seems like she was just angry with him for sending her a way, but that she still (or at least at one point) loved him.





Spoiler



I think the bedroom scene is going to reveal everything. They certainly did a lot more to build it up in the show, but I think one of the failings of the book is that you never really _believe_ that Shae reciprocates Tyrion's feelings. By making their relatonship more believable here (and making the squeeze on Tyrion by everyone else more visible early on), it would make a reveal that "yup, it was really just all for money" that much more devastating.

If I had to guess, what I think they're going to do is make it so that Shae was actually a plot by Tywin the entire time. From what I recall, Bronn was conspicuously absent from the courtroom scenes, which means he wasn't there to confirm whether or not what Shae was saying about how she entered Tyrion's service was true, what with the bit about arm-breaking and such. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that Tywin's vindictive streak against Tyrion could have led him to set Tyrion up for this fall the entire time. "Here, you can be the Hand of the King. Also, here's a whore to fall in love with you who will justify everything I do to you when I pull you from your perch." Perhaps it wasn't even like that from the outset, and maybe Tywin simply noticed, "Hey, this is something I can use to my advantage." Plus, if whatever arrangement existed was only between Shae and Tywin, he's one of _very few_ people in King's Landing who would be able to pull the wool over the eyes of Littlefinger, Varys and Cersei, especially if such an arrangement was solidified outside the city.

The book's reason of Shae simply being into Tyrion for the money was a reasonable justification for what he does, reasonable but not particularly compelling. However, making it so that she was part of a grand scheme to disgrace him from the very beginning... THAT would be a killer plot twist.


----------



## mongey

staying away from the green as I havent read the books but was a good episode . felt like the last 2 were more of building up to soemthing and this one started to get there


----------



## crg123

> floppy weiners, fvck the queen, hand job, hand jokes, oberyn the tormentor, stumps, unable to handle, weiners



The tags for this thread are so absurd


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## gunshow86de

All the "trial by combat" reactions;


----------



## donray1527

Has everybody heard the South Park version of the GOT theme song? It's pretty floppy. (See what I did there?)


----------



## MBMoreno

gunshow86de said:


> All the "trial by combat" reactions;



I particularly liked Margaery's poker face during the whole thing, as she is probably one of the very few that knows the truth, or a hint of it.


----------



## donray1527

MBMoreno said:


> I particularly liked Margaery's poker face during the whole thing, as she is probably one of the very few that knows the truth, or a hint of it.



Yeah, her and terian are the only ones that know FOR SURE.


----------



## chopeth




----------



## ghost_of_karelia

Am I the only one that just really ....ing loves Oberyn Martell? Nope? Okay. Back to Sunspear I go.


----------



## MBMoreno

jarvncaredoc said:


> Am I the only one that just really ....ing loves Oberyn Martell? Nope? Okay. Back to Sunspear I go.



You can be sure you're not the only one


----------



## source field

gunshow86de said:


> All the "trial by combat" reactions;


----------



## Deadnightshade

jarvncaredoc said:


> Am I the only one that just really ....ing loves Oberyn Martell?



He loves you too.

In the butt.


----------



## gunshow86de

My favorite is Jaime's reaction.

"Bro, what did we JUST talk about?"


----------



## pink freud

Such a good Arya scene. "What's your name?, K thx!" *poke*


----------



## gunshow86de

Tyrion and Oberyn's scene in the dungeon might be the best of the series; just perfect.

Anyone that knows how to make .gifs wanna make a Lysa/Poochie "I must go, my planet needs me" mashup?


----------



## Deadnightshade

I laughted out loud in the final scence, although I already knew what happens from the books. I don't know the whole thing is so funny although it's supposed to be dramatic.



Spoiler



I wonder who is going to be the scapegoat for Lysa's death now?The singer that was present in the scene hasn't been introduced..


----------



## metal_sam14

One thing I took away from that episode:



Spoiler



The red woman has really odd positioned nipples.


----------



## JaeSwift

metal_sam14 said:


> One thing I took away from that episode:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The red woman has really odd positioned nipples.



She's almost 40.


----------



## Deadnightshade

JaeSwift said:


> She's almost 40.



Exactly. As flesh slowly rots from the inside, tissue displacement is likely to happen.It's not out of the question that some years back,


Spoiler



each nipple


 was nearer to the center of the polar center defined by the


Spoiler



boob, as aproximated with the shape of a sphere


.



Spoiler



WTF did I just write?


----------



## MailMan

Deadnightshade said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> WTF did I just write?



My thoughts exactly 

I think her body is just fine considering her age.



Deadnightshade said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder who is going to be the scapegoat for Lysa's death now?The singer that was present in the scene hasn't been introduced..



He _was_ introduced, but Joffrey had his tongue ripped out... But I'm also curious how this will be handled.


----------



## wankerness

metal_sam14 said:


> One thing I took away from that episode:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The red woman has really odd positioned nipples.



Yeah dude she's totally gross


----------



## gunshow86de

wankerness said:


> Yeah dude she's totally gross



Yeah, I don't know what these guys are on about. She's a very sexy woman. 

Although, for a fire priestess, she did look a tad cold.


----------



## donray1527

Lol @ the hard nipple joke^^^


----------



## MBMoreno

Hot Carice Van Houten is hot


----------



## wankerness

gunshow86de said:


> Yeah, I don't know what these guys are on about. She's a very sexy woman.
> 
> Although, for a fire priestess, she did look a tad cold.



She's totally gorgeous and I've been a big fan of her as an actress and of her boobs since Black Book, but I inwardly groaned when they followed up their one second of non-explicit male nudity with an IMMEDIATE cut to her tits and then incredibly long lingering shots on her body. Like, it felt sort of like the director going "dude, i know we just showed a man ass, but we're so totally not gay, bros, see?!" Her nudity made sense in the context of the scene, so it wasn't totally tasteless, but the way it was cut from the previous scene and how short that flash of the dude's butt was seemed like an unfortunate statement of intent. I was offended on behalf of ladies everywhere!!


----------



## wankerness

MailMan said:


> My thoughts exactly
> 
> I think her body is just fine considering her age.
> 
> 
> 
> He _was_ introduced, but Joffrey had his tongue ripped out... But I'm also curious how this will be handled.



Her body is far more than fine for ANY age, go watch that beach house episode of girls for a view of the real world, haha.

Regarding the introduction of that character, I also kinda wondered. I'm fine with that guy not being introduced but I wonder who they're going to pin it on. I guess he could just go IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! I would love it if they blamed it on that shitty Robin kid, though, I find him almost unbearable to watch just cause he's so loathsome.


Spoiler



I don't think I could possibly deal with an entire season of him hanging on Sansa's boobs (because that's basically what we get in the books!).



We need to get a button for spoiler tags, I'm so lazy


----------



## flint757

No episode this coming weekend.


----------



## bouVIP

that sucks  but the next episode's title is "The Mountain and the Viper" so it should be worth the wait!


----------



## SKoG

wankerness said:


> She's totally gorgeous and I've been a big fan of her as an actress and of her boobs since Black Book, but I inwardly groaned when they followed up their one second of non-explicit male nudity with an IMMEDIATE cut to her tits and then incredibly long lingering shots on her body. Like, it felt sort of like the director going "dude, i know we just showed a man ass, but we're so totally not gay, bros, see?!" Her nudity made sense in the context of the scene, so it wasn't totally tasteless, but the way it was cut from the previous scene and how short that flash of the dude's butt was seemed like an unfortunate statement of intent. I was offended on behalf of ladies everywhere!!



Also been a fan since Black Book. 

I think there was more behind the scene than that. I'd bet their intent was more about the contrast between the two situations. It was nudity as submission vs nudity as power. We see a queen that asks for nudity from a subordinate and stares at it with desire. Then we have a queen that is showing submission to a naked woman that should be her subordinate, who has trouble deciding if she should avert her eyes or just look and be jealous.

They also have the contrasting of Dany listening to Jorah's advice and changing her mind vs the Night's Watch leadership mocking Jon Snow's advice. Also, Tyrion's conversations with Bronn who is doing what he's doing for his reasons vs. Oberyn doing what he will do for other reasons.

I think this episode was themed this way to show the intentions and differences for what's coming and what the past few episodes have been setting up.


----------



## donray1527

So is that big guy "the mountain" the hounds big bro? Sorry for being a noob lol


----------



## crg123

^ yea he's the one who made him look like that (the burn on his face)


----------



## liberascientia

Yup, he's also the guy that raped and killed Oberyn's sister, if you hadn't already gathered that


----------



## donray1527

yeah i figured that


----------



## mongey

donray1527 said:


> So is that big guy "the mountain" the hounds big bro? Sorry for being a noob lol


 

yeha and they swapped actors from the 1st season which didint help the clarity 

great episode , but 2 weeks off. you batsards


----------



## flint757

Why do they care how/when people watch it anyhow when they don't have ads on their website or channels? The only reason it isn't on next weekend is because season 2 on memorial day weekend had it's lowest viewer count for the show, but I don't get why that would matter for a company like HBO. They don't follow the same format as regular television for it to matter.


----------



## SKoG

Great Mountain refresher scene from Season 1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaIwtO6VWCU


----------



## wankerness

mongey said:


> yeha and they swapped actors from the 1st season which didint help the clarity



This is the third guy to play the character. The first guy was incredible (see above video), the second guy was a joke, he just looked like a tall angry british man and I don't remember him even having any lines, you just saw him stand around looking mean in some of the Arya plotline in season 2. This third guy is almost as good as the first one.

I think they knocked it out of the park with the casting on basically everyone in season 1, and the dispute with that actor just sorta left them reeling and their fill-in for season 2 was last-minute and sucked. This guy is sorta a "second choice" I'd say. He certainly has the build but he doesn't have the insane anger-face of the first guy.


----------



## wankerness

flint757 said:


> Why do they care how/when people watch it anyhow when they don't have ads on their website or channels? The only reason it isn't on next weekend is because season 2 on memorial day weekend had it's lowest viewer count for the show, but I don't get why that would matter for a company like HBO. They don't follow the same format as regular television for it to matter.



I dunno, I think they just do it because they can. It might build viewership cause it gives people an extra week to catch up with the show and catch all the hype about all the awesome things that are going to happen in the last three episodes.


----------



## flint757

Yeah, I suppose. I just want to watch it next weekend.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> This is the third guy to play the character. The first guy was incredible (see above video), the second guy was a joke, he just looked like a tall angry british man and I don't remember him even having any lines, you just saw him stand around looking mean in some of the Arya plotline in season 2. This third guy is almost as good as the first one.
> 
> I think they knocked it out of the park with the casting on basically everyone in season 1, and the dispute with that actor just sorta left them reeling and their fill-in for season 2 was last-minute and sucked. This guy is sorta a "second choice" I'd say. He certainly has the build but he doesn't have the insane anger-face of the first guy.



Yeah, and the dude who's currently playing him has the craziest god damn name so there's no way you can casually be like, "Oh no, the first dude was Conan Stevens, who was awesome but had issues so they replaced him with _____; he didn't really fit so know ...________ replaced him but trying to pronounce his name might as well be me swallowing my tongue and whistling at the same time."

He looks the part like the original, but #2 actor did absolutely .... all and did not fit the part as he was just this tall, lanky bearded guy.

Edit: looks like I was right with my assumption, at first I thought Gregor #2 was the dude from 300 that played the big deformed guy, but he's not; he IS however, a stunt-guy and did AVP/Predators, and was also the Engineer from Prometheus, which probably explains why he didn't do any talking and relied on looks.


----------



## sakeido

That was one scene I didn't like much... re-introducing the Mountain. Yes the guy looks the part, but really? Just butchering peasants or something? No imagination there at all. 

iirc the first Mountain actually had acting experience, and the new one doesn't. Might explain why he looks way less insane.


----------



## pink freud

The first Mountain looked like a menacing murderous giant. The new one looks like a giant murderous simpleton.


----------



## MFB

sakeido said:


> Just butchering peasants or something? No imagination there at all.



At one point in the book he does technically go around with his army just fvcking murdering people and causing mayhem which puts a burden on Tywin since he no longer can control him; so it's not like it's not in there, but I think it's out of place in the show's sense since there's probably no unraveling or build up to show him as this unstoppable force.


----------



## gunshow86de

It's been mentioned before, but new Mountain is too baby-faced. He's supposed to be the Hounds _older _brother. Rory Mccaan (the actor who plays the Hound) is 45 in real life. Hafþór Júlíus "Thor" Björnsson (the Mountain) is 25. The sack of King's Landing was ~20 years in the past. Meaning this Mountain would have been 5 when he killed those babies and raped Oberyn's sister. 

As scary as he is in this photo, he's still too young....







I know it's difficult to find menacing looking actors that are nearly 7' tall, but there has to be someone a little closer to the real Mountain's age. And why have they not been able to bring Conan Stevens back? Isn't he done filming the Hobbit? He must have demanded some unreasonable salary.


----------



## wankerness

The first two actors were way over 25 so I don't think the character is supposed to look 25. That guy also looks older than his age, but not old enough. He does have the hairline of a middle aged dude but yeah, he does have a young face. Oh well. 

Conan Stevens basically was like "screw you guys I'm abandoning you for the hobbit" and burned all his bridges by leaving at a very inconvenient time, pissing everyone off immensely. While he's probably available, there's no way they're hiring him back.


----------



## donray1527

Who did he play in the hobbit?


----------



## MFB

donray1527 said:


> Who did he play in the hobbit?



Pretty sure he's the big white, mean looking dude with the warg. No clue what his name is but he was the bad guy.


----------



## donray1527

oh the pale orc?


----------



## gunshow86de

This was Conan on set. Ironically, he was apparently CGI'd out of the actual movie. So he left an iconic role on one of (if not THE) most popular TV shows of all time, to have a small role in a movie (that was eventually cut, that was non-speaking, and that nobody would even recognize him in). Good career choice buddy*! 








Spoiler



*please don't "Oberyn" me Conan


----------



## SKoG

Pretty much agree with most of the Mountain posts.
As a book reader, my first thought seeing the original Mountain: "Yeah, he's pretty brutal."
and the new Mountain: "Damn, he must lift."


----------



## Xaios

I enjoy how the show, like the book, does go out of its way to remind us that, in many respects, the world still kinda revolves around Ned Stark despite being gone for as long as he has been now (referencing Jorah's speech to Daenerys), that even in this shit world they inhabit, the man of honor is still held up as an example even if he did die of his own shortsightedness.


----------



## MFB

Remember kids:


----------



## MBMoreno

Spoiler



Why the flying fvck does Sansa still have her red hair? It just doesn't make sense, at all. They are changing things that simply don't make sense changed.


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



Oh shit, that's true since now she's supposed to be Littlefinger's brunette niece right?


----------



## AliceLG

MFB said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Oh shit, that's true since now she's supposed to be Littlefinger's brunette niece right?





Spoiler



Bastard daughter actually


----------



## wankerness

I think "leaving out some details" isn't quite the same as "changing things that don't need to be changed." I'm hoping this means they're going to just abandon a lot of that subplot cause as mentioned before I'm going to be very unhappy if I have to watch a full season of that horrid little kid groping her. The slap thing pictured above already suggests that they might not bother with her having to be nice to him. That kid is so loathsome, I hope he gets blamed for Lysa's death and also gets to fly.


----------



## Deadnightshade

I'm sure they're going to go all modafvcka coleston on her hair soon enough. They haven't shown yet any scenes with the other lords of the vale yet so supposedly she doesn't have to hide yet from any person of political significance.


----------



## donray1527

Where does the "sansa farts too" tag come from?


----------



## Deadnightshade

donray1527 said:


> Where does the "sansa farts too" tag come from?



She acts all pretty and perfect well I think she farts too like everybody else.


----------



## 777timesgod

MFB said:


> Remember kids:



Bitchslap Sansa style!


----------



## MBMoreno

wankerness said:


> I think "leaving out some details" isn't quite the same as "changing things that don't need to be changed." I'm hoping this means they're going to just abandon a lot of that subplot cause as mentioned before I'm going to be very unhappy if I have to watch a full season of that horrid little kid groping her. The slap thing pictured above already suggests that they might not bother with her having to be nice to him. That kid is so loathsome, I hope he gets blamed for Lysa's death and also gets to fly.



I used the "Sansa's hair" thing as an example. They are, more than leaving out, adding some (a lot for some) things. And while some of them are awesome, the majority doesn't make sense at all, at least not to me.


----------



## Khoi

WHAAAAAAAAT THE!!!!!!!

WHY MUST YOU DO THIS TO ME GoT!!

(in response to today's episode.)


----------



## st2012

Wow, that was br00tal even by GoT's standards.


----------



## ramses

Yup, that actually broke my heart ... for a moment ... until I remembered it is just a silly book/TV-show.


----------



## wankerness

I knew it was coming but didn't expect it to take back the lead in the Hannibal/Game of Thrones arms race for most disgusting thing to ever air on TV. My stomach did a minor lurch. This is really saying something since I regularly watch junk like Martyrs and L'Interieur.


----------



## donray1527

Yeah that was pretty fraking br00tal... My mom was watching this with me and when she saw the prince guy kiss his wife or whatever, she said "Wasn't he gay like 2 weeks ago?"


----------



## donray1527

Also... Didn't the mountain die too?
How does that make terian guilty?


----------



## flint757

I don't think a tie lets him live. I think a trial by battle means he has to win.


----------



## AxeHappy

I haven't seen the episode, Suncor won't spring for HBO...cheap bastards, but if it's anything like the book it should have been fairly horrific.


----------



## bouVIP

but seriously I know it's like 4 seasons into GoT, but I still wasn't expecting that to happen....


----------



## metal_sam14

What did we learn kids? Don't get cocky


----------



## Lorcan Ward

That was rough to watch especially when you know its coming.


----------



## Vostre Roy

I still believe that the best part was Arya's reaction when she learn that her aunt died 3 days ago


----------



## SKoG

donray1527 said:


> Yeah that was pretty fraking br00tal... My mom was watching this with me and when she saw the prince guy kiss his wife or whatever, she said "Wasn't he gay like 2 weeks ago?"



He's a real swinger, he'll have sex with most things. He has eight bastard daughters, four to random women and four to his girlfriend we see in the show.



donray1527 said:


> Also... Didn't the mountain die too?
> How does that make terian guilty?



Well, Oberyn definitely died first, but we'll have to wait and see what happens to the Mountain....


----------



## SKoG

AxeHappy said:


> I haven't seen the episode, Suncor won't spring for HBO...cheap bastards, but if it's anything like the book it should have been fairly horrific.



They went more gruesome than I thought. Even though it went by pretty quickly, it was built up well. After the first few camera cuts I thought *that *was going to the the harshest thing they show, like then we hear the screams and crunch from an off angle and have a long distance shot from the side of a bloody head, but nope. 

From how I remember it, as someone who knew what was coming, it was more like.. *hear something* they won't show it, wow they showed it .. *hear something* ok, they'll have a weird angle and we won't see much... nope, they showed it.

I may be wrong about how it was actually edited because I was anticipating it, but as a book reader it still had me on edge like that, which speaks for the good direction and editing of the show. It will get a re-watch from me tonight.

Edit:


Vostre Roy said:


> I still believe that the best part was Arya's reaction when she learn that her aunt died 3 days ago









Double edit: 








Another Edit: 




Lena (Cersei) and Pedro (Oberyn)


----------



## MBMoreno

Suicide? The fvck if I know anything now


----------



## gunshow86de

I just want to say, Missandei can get it. 

She even gives eunuchs phantom boners.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Fvck me. I knew what was coming and still was not prepared. Call me a wuss but (and I'll preface this by saying it was incredibly done and I'm super pleased they did it the way they did) I don't ever want to watch that scene again.


----------



## flint757

Vostre Roy said:


> I still believe that the best part was Arya's reaction when she learn that her aunt died 3 days ago



Indeed. I don't think she was laughing because her Aunt was dead, but more because the hound keeps getting ....ed out of his bounty. 

Everywhere they go the people he tries to take her to are dead.


----------



## Xaios

Jaime: C'mon Oberyn, give me a hand!
Oberyn: Not right now, I've got a splitting headache.


__________________



Man, they really showed that death in all its gory glory. Even if it was only on screen for a split second at a time, the image of Oberyn's collapsed head won't leave my mind anytime soon. Bronn was right, one misstep and you're dead. At least he was awesome while it lasted.

Aside from that, the fight choreography was really awesome there, Oberyn was a force right up until he got a bit too cocky. Whoever choreographed that, get that guy on the new Star Wars films. 

Arya's laugh was great too, a good moment of levity in an otherwise grim episode. Tyrion's treatise on his beetle-smashing cousin was also a lot of fun to listen to.

Sansa's arc was quite interesting, and also diverged from the book by quite a bit in this episode. I expected them to play Lysa's death like a suicide, but I didn't know how they'd manage it. What they put together actually makes a lot of sense (and keeps them from having to introduce an otherwise pointless character). What's more interesting though is they're showing that Sansa is definitely learning how to play "the game" under Littlefinger's tutelage, and she's apparently an adept student. She starts off by telling and confirming a truth that no one expected, and it made the lie that she then committed all the more plausible.


----------



## Vostre Roy

flint757 said:


> Indeed. I don't think she was laughing because her Aunt was dead, but more because the hound keeps getting ....ed out of his bounty.
> 
> Everywhere they go the people he tries to take her to are dead.



Well she burst out of laugher because of the news of her aunt's death, then looks at Clegane and laugh even more, so its a combination of the two I believe


----------



## Xaios




----------



## SKoG

Xaios said:


> Sansa's arc was quite interesting, and also diverged from the book by quite a bit in this episode. I expected them to play Lysa's death like a suicide, but I didn't know how they'd manage it. What they put together actually makes a lot of sense (and keeps them from having to introduce an otherwise pointless character). What's more interesting though is they're showing that Sansa is definitely learning how to play "the game" under Littlefinger's tutelage, and she's apparently an adept student. She starts off by telling and confirming a truth that no one expected, and it made the lie that she then committed all the more plausible.



Yea, I have no problem with the changes to Sansa's arc and I like how they're advancing her more quickly in the show. Also please send off Robin to squire ASAP because I can't stand him.

Also looking forward to seeing Sansa in more of Sharon den Adel's (Within Temptation) wardrobe in future episodes.


----------



## gunshow86de

Edit: nevermind


----------



## Alex6534

My eyes hurt.


----------



## bouVIP

Alex6534 said:


> My eyes hurt.



Probably not as much as Oberyn's


----------



## source field




----------



## Xaios

Gotta give the new guy credit: he looked _every bit_ The Mountain in last night's episode.


----------



## narad

ramses said:


> Yup, that actually broke my heart ... for a moment ... until I remembered it is just a silly book/TV-show.



Does that fix it for you? It's not working for me!! My god - that outcome was the only one I could see working with the story, but not like that...not like that...


----------



## flint757

I'll be sad when (if?) Peter Dinklage is no longer a part of the cast, if that ends up being the case at some point (haven't read that far so I don't actually know).

On another note, I'd like them to deviate from the source material more. Mostly because George kills off characters like they're going out of style and if they keep to the source material they will likely kill off too many that I like for me to enjoy the show much more.  That and as the show progresses the snip-its are getting shorter and shorter to fit more and more stories. So far things have been going well, but down the road that could spell disaster for the show. 

Man, I wish they'd do more than 10 episodes a season.


----------



## Skrapmetal

flint757 said:


> I'll be sad when (if?) Peter Dinklage is no longer a part of the cast, if that ends up being the case at some point (haven't read that far so I don't actually know).
> 
> On another note, I'd like them to deviate from the source material more. Mostly because George kills off characters like they're going out of style and if they keep to the source material they will likely kill off too many that I like for me to enjoy the show much more.  That and as the show progresses the snip-its are getting shorter and shorter to fit more and more stories. So far things have been going well, but down the road that could spell disaster for the show.
> 
> Man, I wish they'd do more than 10 episodes a season.



The good thing is that the show is well-written and the casting is really good so they can introduce a character and smash his face in all in the same season, but it is still enough time to have people get invested in the character and be upset over his death.


----------



## Xaios

Gotta love the internet. Oberyn's death is almost like Ned dying all over again. 

"Game of Thrones: TV hasn't murdered everything you love this ruthlessly since it killed Firefly."


----------



## Lorcan Ward




----------



## mongey

god damn it . that was harsh


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

flint757 said:


> I'll be sad when (if?) Peter Dinklage is no longer a part of the cast, if that ends up being the case at some point (haven't read that far so I don't actually know).
> 
> On another note, I'd like them to deviate from the source material more. Mostly because George kills off characters like they're going out of style and if they keep to the source material they will likely kill off too many that I like for me to enjoy the show much more.  That and as the show progresses the snip-its are getting shorter and shorter to fit more and more stories. So far things have been going well, but down the road that could spell disaster for the show.
> 
> Man, I wish they'd do more than 10 episodes a season.



Well, the next season is going to be full of people you've never met before, so there are all new people to kill! The next two books take place concurrently so several main characters are going to either be entirely out of the picture or sharing quite a bit of space with new faces.


----------



## ramses

narad said:


> Does that fix it for you? It's not working for me!! .



... barely ...


----------



## liamh

I don't think I've ever been so affected by a TV show.
I didn't even enjoy that episode, it was just too much for me


----------



## Khoi

Xaios said:


> Aside from that, the fight choreography was really awesome there, Oberyn was a force right up until he got a bit too cocky. Whoever choreographed that, get that guy on the new Star Wars films.



From his AMA on reddit a week ago:

"And the production of Game of Thrones actually put me in some pre-training before I went to Europe to start shooting. I was put intro some classes with a master of Wushu, an acrobatic martial art, and they put me with a master, his name is Master Hu, and he has a studio in Los Angeles where he sort of basically showed me the basics and taught me how to fight with a spear and twist my body around and move in ways I never thought possible. A*nd this was a guy who actually did Shaolin movies with Jet Li very early in Jet Li's career, and fought alongside him as his sidekick, so he was the real deal.*"


yeah, legit.


----------



## lucasreis

I didn't see that coming (in the last episode) since I didn't read the books. Poor Oberyn... for a moment, I thought he was a real champ. I hope Tyrion finds a way out of this... he is too smart to die like this as well.


----------



## wankerness




----------



## rectifryer

The crushing beetles exchange was hilarious.


----------



## pink freud

rectifryer said:


> The crushing beetles exchange was hilarious.



Not as funny as Lysa's death, apparently


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash




----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## bythepainiseetheothers

Last episode was... Mindblowing.


----------



## stevexc

All the excitement gave me a... headache


----------



## chopeth

hahaha, awesome!!






Good Luck Topping this Brilliant Game of Thrones Fan Photo | Vanity Fair


----------



## gunshow86de

I'm still waiting to catch someone online spelling it "Oberin."

Just so I can tell them that there are no "eyes" in Oberyn.


----------



## wankerness

Here's some oberyn with an I:


----------



## Psionic

wankerness said:


> Here's some oberyn with an I:



Didnt even know hes in the show


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

I believe he thinks it's O'brien. 

But man so much rage.


----------



## stevexc

Well, now that you mention it, they could pass for brothers...


----------



## Xaios

Lol @ Obrien. Can't read that without imagine Colm Meaney fighting the Mountain. 

EDIT: *Super*-'d.

Actually, the funny thing is that, before casting for S4 was anounced, I imagined Dorn being analogues for Arabs, rather than Spaniards. As such, I thought that Alexander Siddig, another Star Trek DS9 alum, would have made an excellent Red Viper as well.


----------



## bythepainiseetheothers

SPOILER: Tyrion will use Floo Powder and he'll run away to Narnia to burn the ring. 
Wait, what?


----------



## bythepainiseetheothers

Xaios said:


> Lol @ Obrien. Can't read that without imagine Colm Meaney fighting the Mountain.
> 
> EDIT: *Super*-'d.
> 
> Actually, the funny thing is that, before casting for S4 was anounced, I imagined Dorn being analogues for Arabs, rather than Spaniards. As such, I thought that Alexander Siddig, another Star Trek DS9 alum, would have made an excellent Red Viper as well.



Abot Dorn, I agree with you, I was expecting to be more arab rather than latin... And I thought they were going to record the outsides of Dorn in Morroco, but seems they are going to record it in Andalucia (south of Spain)


----------



## st2012




----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Xaios said:


> Actually, the funny thing is that, before casting for S4 was anounced, I imagined *Dorn* being analogues for Arabs, rather than Spaniards. As such, I thought that Alexander Siddig, another Star Trek DS9 alum, would have made an excellent Red Viper as well.



Dorn?






I think you have Trek on the brain


----------



## gunshow86de

DORN?


----------



## rectifryer

wankerness said:


> Here's some oberyn with an I:


lol aware


----------



## Volteau

bythepainiseetheothers said:


> Abot Dorn, I agree with you, I was expecting to be more arab rather than latin... And I thought they were going to record the outsides of Dorn in Morroco, but seems they are going to record it in Andalucia (south of Spain)



The Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula (Península Ibérica) in 711 and kept it until their expulsion in 1492 (a bit before that there was the Catholic reconquest, but it was officially "over" by 1492). Spanish has so many arab words it's not even funny, and even us Ricans, because most of us are descendants of Spaniards, get confused with arabs when travelling. I've been pulled aside like 4 or 5 times for "random searches". Point being that when talking about the Spanish (especially the south of Spain) and their descendants (in Pedro's case, Chilean) , it's a fine line between the whole latin/arab comparison, even culture wise .

And the south of spain is actually pretty perfect. Been to Andalucía a few times (have family there), and man, if that's where they're shooting Dorne, then they couldn't have picked a better location (it's just so damn beautiful).


----------



## SKoG

Not as sexy as this


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Volteau said:


> The Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula (Península Ibérica) in 711 and kept it until their expulsion in 1492 (a bit before that there was the Catholic reconquest, but it was officially "over" by 1492). Spanish has so many arab words it's not even funny, and even us Ricans, because most of us are descendants of Spaniards, get confused with arabs when travelling. I've been pulled aside like 4 or 5 times for "random searches". Point being that when talking about the Spanish (especially the south of Spain) and their descendants (in Pedro's case, Chilean) , it's a fine line between the whole latin/arab comparison, even culture wise .
> 
> And the south of spain is actually pretty perfect. Been to Andalucia a few times (have family there), and man, if that's where they shooting Dorne, then they couldn't have picked a better location (it's just so damn beautiful).




Dude you quoted is from Madrid. He's probably aware .

Incidentally, my term paper for the Spanish Linguistics class I took at Uni was about the influence of Arabic on Spanish in the Middle Ages. Written in Spanish, of course .

Took _forever._


----------



## bythepainiseetheothers

Volteau said:


> The Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula (Península Ibérica) in 711 and kept it until their expulsion in 1492 (a bit before that there was the Catholic reconquest, but it was officially "over" by 1492). Spanish has so many arab words it's not even funny, and even us Ricans, because most of us are descendants of Spaniards, get confused with arabs when travelling. I've been pulled aside like 4 or 5 times for "random searches". Point being that when talking about the Spanish (especially the south of Spain) and their descendants (in Pedro's case, Chilean) , it's a fine line between the whole latin/arab comparison, even culture wise .
> 
> And the south of spain is actually pretty perfect. Been to Andalucia a few times (have family there), and man, if that's where they shooting Dorne, then they couldn't have picked a better location (it's just so damn beautiful).



I'm from Spain and yep this is all true (I studied this months ago, really interesting stuff).
I hope they use stuff like La Giralda for the landscapes or something like that...


----------



## Volteau

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Dude you quoted is from Madrid. He's probably aware .
> 
> Incidentally, my term paper for the Spanish Linguistics class I took at Uni was about the influence of Arabic on Spanish in the Middle Ages. Written in Spanish, of course .
> 
> Took _forever._



lol I had no idea who I had quoted that from. *Embarassed*


----------



## chopeth

Volteau said:


> The Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula (Península Ibérica) in 711 and kept it until their expulsion in 1492 (a bit before that there was the Catholic reconquest, but it was officially "over" by 1492). Spanish has so many arab words it's not even funny, and even us Ricans, because most of us are descendants of Spaniards, get confused with arabs when travelling. I've been pulled aside like 4 or 5 times for "random searches". Point being that when talking about the Spanish (especially the south of Spain) and their descendants (in Pedro's case, Chilean) , it's a fine line between the whole latin/arab comparison, even culture wise .
> 
> And the south of spain is actually pretty perfect. Been to Andalucia a few times (have family there), and man, if that's where they're shooting Dorne, then they couldn't have picked a better location (it's just so damn beautiful).



When I read the books I always had no doubt George Martin had my wonderful Andalusia in his mind when he described Dorne.


----------



## gunshow86de

Dinklage yearbook photo? Dinklage yearbook photo.


----------



## Xaios

Captain Shoggoth said:


> Dorn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have Trek on the brain



*Always.*


----------



## bouVIP

Too soon


----------



## gunshow86de

Too soon? Leena is posting spoilers all over her instagram.


----------



## gunshow86de

Oberyn should have gone with "Plan B."


----------



## rectifryer

gunshow86de said:


> Too soon? Leena is posting spoilers all over her instagram.


Rock of love?


----------



## stevexc

rectifryer said:


> Rock of love?



Love on the rocks... with no ice?


----------



## gunshow86de

rectifryer said:


> Rock of love?



Close.


----------



## stevexc

In all honesty, though, that's such a vague "spoiler" that you'll only understand it if you already know what it spoils. Both of them were.


----------



## djyngwie

chopeth said:


> When I read the books I always had no doubt George Martin had my wonderful Andalusia in his mind when he described Dorne.


I went on a trip to Andalucia a few months ago. It is one of the greatest places I have ever visited  Wonderful choice for Dorne.


----------



## gunshow86de

stevexc said:


> In all honesty, though, that's such a vague "spoiler" that you'll only understand it if you already know what it spoils. Both of them were.



Well, it does sort of confirm something that many book readers weren't sure was going to be part of the series. I guess we will find out in episode 10 (I fully expect it to be the final scene of the season).


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



I don't remember Gregor crushing the head like he did in the show, I thought he just fvcking pummeled his face to the point where it was caved in and mangled? Not to mention, I don't think a head even crushes like that just from having your eyes gouged


----------



## MBMoreno

gunshow86de said:


> Too soon? Leena is posting spoilers all over her instagram.



I don't get why this is a spoiler, its just


Spoiler



a stone heart


----------



## bouVIP

Oh man I really want to know what this spoiler is, but I also really don't want to know


----------



## gunshow86de

bouVIP said:


> Oh man I really want to know what this spoiler is, but I also really don't want to know



Do NOT Google! It should only be 2 weeks wait (actually 1.5 weeks now). It will be worth it.


----------



## Skrapmetal

Yes, wait.

And this makes me excited.


----------



## crg123

wankerness said:


> Here's some oberyn with an I:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/GBM9FVW.png



"I use to like Daenerys because she had banging titties and dragons..."


----------



## Xaios

gunshow86de said:


> Too soon? Leena is posting spoilers all over her instagram.



Hmm, that's a juicy one.


----------



## bouVIP

FFUU


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## SKoG

With all this talk of spoilers this time in the season it gets really tempting to let the cat out of the bag, but as people said, don't go looking for anything about that picture as it will be worth the wait.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

I don't get what that picture is spoiling, and I've read all of the novels.

Guess I just suck at riddles .


----------



## pink freud

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I don't get what that picture is spoiling, and I've read all of the novels.
> 
> Guess I just suck at riddles .



Well, I'll keep _quiet_ about it.


----------



## SKoG

pink freud said:


> Well, I'll keep _quiet_ about it.





Spoiler



What's the matter? Cat got your tongue?

You know, as Mark Twain said: if animals could speak, the dog would be a blundering outspoken fellow, but the cat would have the rare grace of never saying a word too much. 

so tempted to unspoiler this...


----------



## bythepainiseetheothers

bouVIP said:


> FFUU




I... I can do this. Hold my beer.


----------



## wankerness

Well, that sure delivered on a level I was not expecting. Unlike the Blackwater episode it never once looked cheap or low-budget to me. That was incredibly exciting for almost the entire running time and gets my vote for best episode of the season, which is saying something, since Jon and Sam are not very high on my list of characters I like. The giants ....ing delivered, the archer one in particular made me laugh out loud. My memory of how the book went


Spoiler



was that the fight basically ended with Stannis and the cavalry coming in to save the day (much like the battle of Blackwater with Tywin), but maybe I remembered things wrong! Maybe they'll just not even bother having Stannis go there till next season - that would clear up a lot of times for the finale if they don't even resolve this whole uprising this season, even though it was pretty authoritatively finished by the end of the third book.



I also liked how they dealt with Ygritte.


Spoiler



In the book, Jon just sorta finds her dead in a pile the next morning and there's about one sentence describing how that made him sad. They really made it pretty damn affecting here and I thought it was richly deserved with how great her character had been the last few seasons. Great death scene!



I'm really not sure how they're going to manage to resolve all these damn storylines next episode unless they have an extra long episode.


Spoiler



I guess there's no reason to show Brann or Daenerys or Reek or Sansa again, so that would save some time, but I know they probably won't be able to resist. Tyrion and Brienne are the big ones we know they have to include, I guess, and I unfortunately think they're going to have to have the hound get left for dead by Arya so she can go off to Bravos, but I guess we'll see!


----------



## MFB

I don't know who's read the books so I'll spoiler this, for those who've read the books and watch maybe you can shed some insight

The big question,


Spoiler



Did they kill Tywin yet?


----------



## Xaios

MFB said:


> The big question,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Did they kill Tywin yet?





Spoiler



Not yet.



Episode delivered. Awesome as Blackwater was, there were times when it failed to really convey the scope of things. Not so here. It was just huge all around. And it _rocked_.

Anyone else noticed how they redacted all the cast except the Night's Watch/Wall characters from the opening credits?


----------



## bouVIP

I was going into this episode like "meh" since it was all about the Wall and stuff, but omg it was epic!!!


----------



## SKoG

wankerness said:


> Well, that sure delivered on a level I was not expecting. Unlike the Blackwater episode it never once looked cheap or low-budget to me. That was incredibly exciting for almost the entire running time and gets my vote for best episode of the season, which is saying something, since Jon and Sam are not very high on my list of characters I like. The giants ....ing delivered, the archer one in particular made me laugh out loud. My memory of how the book went
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> was that the fight basically ended with Stannis and the cavalry coming in to save the day (much like the battle of Blackwater with Tywin), but maybe I remembered things wrong! Maybe they'll just not even bother having Stannis go there till next season - that would clear up a lot of times for the finale if they don't even resolve this whole uprising this season, even though it was pretty authoritatively finished by the end of the third book.



Agreed that they really did it well, as for the difference in the book...


Spoiler



as I recall Thorne and Slynt are away getting more men from another Night's Watch castle when the Wall assault starts. When Thorne and Slynt return they have a wildling prisoner with them that discloses Jon was a traitor when he was on his mission beyond the wall. They imprison Jon and later it's their idea to send him to try to treat with Mance with the actual intention of killing Mance as a suicide mission alternative to being executed for being a traitor. Stannis comes in around that time.





wankerness said:


> I also liked how they dealt with Ygritte.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In the book, Jon just sorta finds her dead in a pile the next morning and there's about one sentence describing how that made him sad. They really made it pretty damn affecting here and I thought it was richly deserved with how great her character had been the last few seasons. Great death scene!



Absolutely.



wankerness said:


> I'm really not sure how they're going to manage to resolve all these damn storylines next episode unless they have an extra long episode.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there's no reason to show Brann or Daenerys or Reek or Sansa again, so that would save some time, but I know they probably won't be able to resist. Tyrion and Brienne are the big ones we know they have to include, I guess, and I unfortunately think they're going to have to have the hound get left for dead by Arya so she can go off to Bravos, but I guess we'll see!





Spoiler



I think I saw somewhere someone said next week is supposed to run around 66 minutes, so maybe we'll have 10+ more minutes than usual. I agree we probably won't see Reek, Sansa, or Bran, but I think we'll see a peek at the start of problems in Meereen to give the Dany fans something for the end of the season. I think we'll see Jon & Stannis at the wall, Tyrion of course, Hound & Arya parting ways. Brienne, I don't think so. If you're thinking of LSH, they don't meet up for a while. 

Edit: clarifying I think LSH will be in it, but not with Brienne


----------



## gunshow86de

About next episode;



Spoiler



I'm pretty sure we'll see Bran. The episode is titled "The Children." The popular theory is that this refers to both Tyrion (killing Tywin) and Bran (meeting the Children of the Forest in the cave). Hopefully we'll get to see Bran warg in to Hodor again and "Hodor-up" some White Walkers before they get to the cave.


----------



## Jarmake

The last episode is going to be exciting, for sure. I liked the blackwater fight abit more than this one overall, but hell, this fight had fuking giants and fuking warmammoths in it! Only thing that was missing was some freakin' sharks with freakin' lazers on their head. Or ill tempered mutated sea basses!


----------



## gunshow86de

I hope this isn't too much of a spoiler, but that was just the FIRST battle for the Wall.


----------



## Xaios

Book spoiler/discussion:


Spoiler



Based on how things have progressed so far at the wall, I'm guessing that they plan to hold off on making Jon Snow commander of the Night's Watch until season 5.

Alliser Thorne's recent valor (which never happened in the books, where he remained a c_u_nt right to the end) is also going to make it all the more awkward when Jon has him executed.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Xaios said:


> Book spoiler/discussion:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Based on how things have progressed so far at the wall, I'm guessing that they plan to hold off on making Jon Snow commander of the Night's Watch until season 5.
> 
> Alliser Thorne's recent valor (which never happened in the books, where he remained a c_u_nt right to the end) is also going to make it all the more awkward when Jon has him executed.





Spoiler



Jon never executes him directly, he only sends him off on a dangerous ranging-not sure if that's what you're referring to, or are you thinking of Janos Slynt? I for one enjoyed his nutting-up this episode, never has a TV show raised my testosterone levels like this episode 



Next episode is going to have to be super long or some stuff is gonna be missed out. I fail to see how they can do the


Spoiler



Mance Rayder/STANNIS THE MANNIS


arc justice in one ep but I hope that the latter does indeed show up. Eagerly awaiting


Spoiler



Tywin's final shit


hahahaha


----------



## Xaios

Captain Shoggoth said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Jon never executes him directly, he only sends him off on a dangerous ranging-not sure if that's what you're referring to, or are you thinking of Janos Slynt? I for one enjoyed his nutting-up this episode, never has a TV show raised my testosterone levels like this episode





Spoiler



Am I? You might be right. Been a while since I read ADWD.


----------



## sakeido

Xaios said:


> Book spoiler/discussion:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Based on how things have progressed so far at the wall, I'm guessing that they plan to hold off on making Jon Snow commander of the Night's Watch until season 5.
> 
> Alliser Thorne's recent valor (which never happened in the books, where he remained a c_u_nt right to the end) is also going to make it all the more awkward when Jon has him executed.



you are mistaken my friend. It is 


Spoiler



Janos Slynt that is executed, not Alliser Thorne... Jon sends Alliser away to a different castle but it looks like they are tweaking that relationship slightly so maybe he will stick around instead.



but my question is, if Bran


Spoiler



reaches the Tree now, what the .... is he going to do for season 5 and 6? If he gets to the tree, that leaves like 3 chapters from book 5 for him to last two whole seasons.


----------



## SKoG

sakeido said:


> but my question is, if Bran
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> reaches the Tree now, what the .... is he going to do for season 5 and 6? If he gets to the tree, that leaves like 3 chapters from book 5 for him to last two whole seasons.





Spoiler



I don't know what they're going to do, but I hope they're filming some of his scenes now or by the time he gets back into the main storyline he's going to have a deep voice and facial hair.


----------



## Vostre Roy

So much green...


----------



## gunshow86de

SKoG said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what they're going to do, but I hope they're filming some of his scenes now or by the time he gets back into the main storyline he's going to have a deep voice and facial hair.





Spoiler



I was going to say something along those lines. Puberty has really hit this kid hard. Maybe they are trying to get his "full-human" storyline out of the way while he is still really young. At least in a few years he will be part tree or some mystical thing, so you can sort of explain his aging. Also, a grown man riding everywhere on Hodor's back would be odd, to say the least.


----------



## Xaios

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to say something along those lines. Puberty has really hit this kid hard. Maybe they are trying to get his "full-human" storyline out of the way while he is still really young. At least in a few years he will be part tree or some mystical thing, so you can sort of explain his aging. Also, a grown man riding everywhere on Hodor's back would be odd, to say the least.





Spoiler



It is one of the more awkward things they have to deal with on this show, considering it's got a cast which includes several children, and the story takes place over such a short period of time that it would be impossible for them to shoot it before they all aged. Sometimes they can handle it, sometimes not. With Arya, they at least had the foresight to throw her in a giant bag of an outfit to hide the fact that, in the meantime, Maisie Williams has gotten 5 years older and has the ladyparts to prove it (although what they'll do when she becomes Cat of the Canals is anyone's guess). And they got really lucky with Sansa, she hardly looks different at all. Bran though, his voice completely changed between seasons 2 and 3, and he's grown a lot to boot.



You know one thing that was really nice in last night's episode? The kiss between Sam and Gilly. It was just so sweet and innocent, and considering the incredible crapsack world they inhabit, that little ray of sunshine was mighty refreshing.  Call me a hopeless romantic, but that was just _nice_.


----------



## stevexc

Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Bran though, his voice completely changed between seasons 2 and 3, and he's grown a lot to boot.





Spoiler



In all fairness, you almost never see him standing.


----------



## gunshow86de

stevexc said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In all fairness, you almost never see him standing.



Hiyoooo!


----------



## pink freud

It is important to remember that, and they even have it mentioned in the show, that some amount of years have passed since S1E1.


----------



## sakeido

Xaios said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It is one of the more awkward things they have to deal with on this show, considering it's got a cast which includes several children, and the story takes place over such a short period of time that it would be impossible for them to shoot it before they all aged. Sometimes they can handle it, sometimes not. With Arya, they at least had the foresight to throw her in a giant bag of an outfit to hide the fact that, in the meantime, Maisie Williams has gotten 5 years older and has the ladyparts to prove it (although what they'll do when she becomes Cat of the Canals is anyone's guess). And they got really lucky with Sansa, she hardly looks different at all. Bran though, his voice completely changed between seasons 2 and 3, and he's grown a lot to boot.
> 
> 
> 
> You know one thing that was really nice in last night's episode? The kiss between Sam and Gilly. It was just so sweet and innocent, and considering the incredible crapsack world they inhabit, that little ray of sunshine was mighty refreshing. Call me a hopeless romantic, but that was just _nice_.



Personally,


Spoiler



Jon's smile when he saw Ygritte again


 just warmed the cockles of my heart. It wasn't the same as the book - it was much better. IMO. Devastating! Oh the sadness...


----------



## Xaios

"You know nothing, Jon Snow..."


All the feels. :'(


----------



## Vostre Roy

Xaios said:


> You know one thing that was really nice in last night's episode? The kiss between Sam and Gilly. It was just so sweet and innocent, and considering the incredible crapsack world they inhabit, that little ray of sunshine was mighty refreshing. Call me a hopeless romantic, but that was just _nice_.



I think we can hear Sam's ball dropping while he was kissing her. He never was that badass after that since we've known him

Oh and f_u_ck quoting a post full of spoiler, I almost read it on first glance


----------



## SKoG

Vostre Roy said:


> So much green...



"Some claimed to have the power to see through spoiler tags. These men were called greenseers." - Maester Luwin


----------



## MBMoreno

SKoG said:


> "Some claimed to have the power to see through spoiler tags. These men were called greenseers." - Maester Luwin



They read books


----------



## Deadnightshade

Xaios said:


> It's got a cast which includes several *chicken*



Yeap. That's what I read at first


----------



## Deadnightshade

MBMoreno said:


> They read books



Playing the role of the soldier in the following video, the ssorgers that haven't read the books


----------



## Xaios

Deadnightshade said:


> Yeap. That's what I read at first



Hey man, you know how The Hound is about his chicken.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## mongey

was a good episode. John Snow annoys me at times but he rocked it out


am I right in thinking it was the 1st episode in 4 season with no tits in it ?


----------



## wankerness

mongey said:


> was a good episode. John Snow annoys me at times but he rocked it out
> 
> 
> am I right in thinking it was the 1st episode in 4 season with no tits in it ?



No, there are several of those. I think there was another one just a few weeks ago.


----------



## Fiction

I hope releasing the hook was worth all 3 kills on the wall


----------



## crg123

That hook was Bad. Ass.


----------



## gunshow86de

Fiction said:


> I hope releasing the hook was worth all 3 kills on the wall



Watch it again, I count at least 9 climbers at about the same level. They only show the 3 clustered together getting sliced, but it scraped a few hundred feet horizontally. Even if the blade didn't actually hit you, it removed so much ice that all of them had to have fallen. 

But yeah, I don't understand how those 9 were supposed to have the energy to kill all the Night's Watch at the top of the Wall after vertically climbing ~700 feet. I would have let them get almost to the top and then just had 9 guys with some polls push them off the Wall.


----------



## gunshow86de

This made me


----------



## wankerness

Xaios said:


> And they got really lucky with Sansa, she hardly looks different at all.



She's like 6 feet tall!


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## MailMan

I loved these last episodes with all my heart. One thing I can't forgive though is that they didn't name the season finale


Spoiler



"...Did Not, in the End, Shit Gold"


----------



## rectifryer

When is the season finale?


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

This fookin' Sunday.


----------



## rectifryer

Finally I can have my life back!


----------



## Deadnightshade

Given Sam's take on their vows in regards to snu-snu, I believe the men of the night's watch should be allowed monthly to go anal with whores. And the whores getting ....ed by them would be called crowholes.


----------



## wankerness

Deadnightshade said:


> Given Sam's take on their vows in regards to snu-snu, I believe the men of the night's watch should be allowed monthly to go anal with whores. And the whores getting ....ed by them would be called crowholes.



_RUTHLESS_


----------



## Xaios

What do you call a bunch of Night's Watch getting slaughtered by wildlings?

A murder of crows.

Hyuk Hyuk.


----------



## crg123

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> This fookin' Sunday.



I laughed way to hard at this on my bus into work today. People are staring at me now...


----------



## gunshow86de

To the person that added the "sansa fvckable now" tag, you're welcome.


----------



## Deadnightshade

gunshow86de said:


> To the person that added the "sansa fvckable now" tag, you're welcome.



I did. Would still hump.



Spoiler



THEM BOTH


----------



## Xaios

EDIT: Nvm.


----------



## gunshow86de

Jon Snow is NOT glad he called that guy..........


----------



## sakeido

I am still not over the feels from Sunday's ep 

All these funny gifs aren't working as well as they did for Oberyn. God damn.


----------



## liamh

I cant be the only one who


Spoiler



did not give one solitary fvck about Ygritte dying. In fact I let out a Nelson Muntz-esque "Haw Haw!" when she got shafted. The fact that it was just some kid who killed her makes it all the more enjoyable/funny


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



When I read it in the book I didn't even really feel that bad. I imagine had I seen it the way the show portrayed it I might have, but at that point I had kind of come to view anyone attached to main characters as expendable and especially when she's part of those attacking the place that Jon is _sworn to defend._


----------



## Xaios

liamh said:


> I cant be the only one who
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> did not give one solitary fvck about Ygritte dying. In fact I let out a Nelson Muntz-esque "Haw Haw!" when she got shafted. The fact that it was just some kid who killed her makes it all the more enjoyable/funny





Spoiler



No, you're probably not, and it's easy to understand why. One fault of this season is that they kept Jon and Ygritte apart for the entire season without much build-up beyond "the wildlings are coming... eventually." It's much easier for a book-reader to be more invested in their relationship because the time difference from when Jon abandoned the wildlings compared to when they attacked the castle was much less.



There is one other change that they made to the show from the books that, while it probably isn't of any real consequence in the end, I'm not a fan of:


Spoiler



In the book, Jon is also a skilled warg on par with the season 3 guy with the eagle and the guy from this last episode with the owl, and regularly inhabits Ghost. How they discover the giant wildling encampment was when Jon wargs into Ghost while Ghost is atop a mountain and Jon is at the base, and then Ghost gets attacked by the most entertainingly hateful bird ever put to page. Lord, I wish they could have translated that eagle onto the show.


----------



## rectifryer

^That makes sense as it seems his character is lacking something in the show. He is too vanilla for a bastard.


----------



## crg123

Spoiler



^ Ya I agree I know he's suppose to be an important character as the story goes (my book reader friends spoil shit for me but I just think he's boring and whiney most of the time.


----------



## gunshow86de

Not exactly a plot spoiler, but I'll tag it just in case. Regarding Jon Snow;



Spoiler



I do wish the show had dropped a few hints for the "show-only" fans to form the same theory book readers have for Jon's true lineage. It makes him a much more interesting character, IMO.


----------



## wankerness

crg123 said:


> ^ Ya I agree I know he's suppose to be an important character as the story goes (my book reader friends spoil shit for me but I just think he's boring and whiney most of the time./spoiler]



I don't think that was spoiler material! We're turning this into a green madhouse.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

gunshow86de said:


> Jon Snow is NOT glad he called that guy..........



His two scenes in that film literally double how good it is.


----------



## AxeHappy

liamh said:


> I cant be the only one who
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> did not give one solitary fvck about Ygritte dying. In fact I let out a Nelson Muntz-esque "Haw Haw!" when she got shafted. The fact that it was just some kid who killed her makes it all the more enjoyable/funny





Neg rep incoming.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

AxeHappy said:


> Neg rep incoming.


How can someone hate ginger minge.


----------



## rectifryer

I was not aware of the term minge until sunday.


----------



## wankerness




----------



## Xaios

That is hilarious.


----------



## pink freud

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> How can someone hate ginger minge.



Hey now:


----------



## MBMoreno

wankerness said:


>


A kid drawing a long bow and shooting it straight though...


----------



## rectifryer

MBMoreno said:


> A kid drawing a long bow and shooting it straight though...


I think he had practice because he had the weapon on him the entire time. I don't know anything about archery, however.


----------



## SKoG

Whether a kid his size could physically do it IRL, I don't know. But he was the survivor from the wildling raid who showed up at the wall, joined the Night's Watch for revenge and said he was the "best archer from his village" or whatever and almost none of the Brothers believed him (until now).


----------



## Watty

Holy shit did they change a lot in the season finale....cray cray

S & T?!

B & C?!

Damn!!!


----------



## wankerness

Pretty good episode, with one major exception. Episode spoilers incoming, obviously, but if you click on this after its aired that should be a given! The Tyrion/Tywin stuff was horrible, like straight up bad. It was all so abrupt and with none of the quality writing or acting they're usually so good about with the King's Landing characters. There was 0 emotion in the Shae scene from anyone and the confrontation after was almost as bad. I don't know what exactly to blame, the Tysha stuff probably would have helped, but it wasn't necessary, they just needed to give it some more time and probably dialogue, or at least...acting. It was just incredibly rushed and failed completely on a dramatic level. Barf. Definitely the weakest major Dinklage event of the entire series.

BOOK SPOILER:



Spoiler



Everyone seems to be freaking out that they didn't include Lady Stoneheart. I was expecting it, partly because it's the "HOLY SHIT!" ending of the book that this season was more or less finishing up (besides Jon Snow, evidently), and partly because of Lena Headey screwing around on instagram. I'm sort of disappointed, but at the same time, that character has been in like two chapters total of the books, so it's not like the introduction really lays the groundwork for, well, anything! I'm not really bothered by that exclusion at all.



EDIT: The more I think about it, maybe the Tysha exclusion WAS the problem. They introduced that story in season 1 and it was all set up and ready to go, but nope, they just rush through the Jamie/Tyrion and Tyrion/Shae/Tywin shit with 0 emotional impact and almost 0 character development for Tyrrion. Bleh. I generally think the show does a better job of fleshing out characters than the books, oddly enough, but this is one case where I think outrage over excluded material is justified. It was a really disappointing ending for any fans of those characters. It's not like other changes like that where they could just stick that stuff back in next season, it's a done deal and is f'd. Shae sort of flails around with a knife so he kills her, and then all the backstory of why exactly this would really push Tyrrion over the edge is just gone? It would have taken all of 2 minutes in the scene with Jaime, and then just the dialogue between Tyrrion and Tywin could have been about the same as it was in the book, and that would have been that, perfect. I really wonder what they removed that for, I can only figure time. On the positive side, Hound vs Brienne was a good change.


----------



## crg123

Happy Fathers Day!

Sincerly,
Tyrion


----------



## Watty

Just kidding about the Shae bit, I completely forgot that was in the books as well. I figured since they didn't include the Tysha reference that it was going to be the "final straw" during the next scene....


----------



## SKoG

Disappointed with the lack of Tysha and all of the Lannister scenes in general. For all that self-hype and Emmy talk... man, they had the source material for it and totally blew it.


----------



## bouVIP

I don't read the books, but I thought it was a great season finale episode excluding the Lannister parts. I do agree those could have been done better. 


When Stannis shows up though. That was bad ass. 

Also the dragon CGI always looks so well done.


----------



## gunshow86de

"You came to the wrong neighborhood, motherfvckers."







"Call me elf one more time!"


----------



## SKoG

For the non-book readers, if you see some backlash on the internet or you know some book readers in real life who aren't happy, the non-spoilery reason:

The Lannister disappointment. It's widespread on the internet, book readers didn't like how the show handled it at all. In particular, the scene between Jamie and Tyrion was very different and left out a conversation about: 1) Tyrions love history; 2) Cersei and Jamie's relationship. Both of these are significant in the past and future character development in the books. The clarification of Tyrion's love history explains a lot and provides even more motive for Tyrion's actions with Shae and Tywin. The exchange about Cersei shapes Jamie's development fundamentally for the entire next book, so much so it is referenced once every few pages in Jamie's chapters.

Now, about the other big spoiler involving the picture Lena Headey (Cersei) posted on the internet with the stones in a heart shape that we were talking about a few pages back. It didn't happen in this episode. It still could happen, so don't go digging for info quite yet. I hope it happens, I don't care that it didn't happen this episode, but a lot of people are mad about it.

The show went in a different direction with most of the scenes in this episode. Some were fine, some more drastic and questionable, there will be much second guessing of the show runners on the internet. Some of us will be bitter about it and be mad for 10 months. But don't let our bitterness change your opinions of the show or hurt your anticipation for next season.


----------



## gunshow86de

I'm part of the "Tyrion's escape was too rushed" crowd. Him and Jaime don't exactly part on good terms. I also don't like him killing Tywin as a "heat of the moment" type of thing. It's one of the few instances where I feel that deviating from the source material made the show worse, instead of just different.


----------



## SKoG

gunshow86de said:


> I'm part of the "Tyrion's escape was too rushed" crowd. Him and Jaime don't exactly part on good terms. I also don't like him killing Tywin as a "heat of the moment" type of thing. It's one of the few instances where I feel that deviating from the source material made the show worse, instead of just different.



Yea, they have three very capable actors and dramatic source material. The show runners hyped up this episode, submitted it for Emmys, said it was going to be the best episode they've done. Man, I was so hyped. They had so much repressed anger, intrigue, doubt, revenge right there ready to use. Instead we got "I love you, bro" and "Say it again and I'll shoot ya!"


----------



## wankerness

SKoG said:


> Yea, they have three very capable actors and dramatic source material. The show runners hyped up this episode, submitted it for Emmys, said it was going to be the best episode they've done. Man, I was so hyped. They had so much repressed anger, intrigue, doubt, revenge right there ready to use. Instead we got "I love you, bro" and "Say it again and I'll shoot ya!"



I really just don't get it. I wonder if there's a longer version out there with all the good stuff left in that they couldn't air because of time constraints and that we'll get like a "director's cut" on the DVD like has happened with some other shows in the past. Probably not, but it would be nice! One theory I've seen around the net is that


Spoiler



since the showrunners know what happens in the last two books, they've heard that Tyrrion and Jamie never meet again and thus thought it would be pointless to introduce this extra drama if it's not going to have more payoff down the line. If that's actually what happened, it is still dumb cause it would have already been a payoff of the characters and what had come before.


----------



## Xaios

As a book reader, I thought Tyrion's scenes were fine. 

Yes, the course of events was different from the books, but I don't really think it changes that much. In the book, Tyrion is angry because Tywin made him believe that Tysha was a whore, and then discovers that she did in fact love him. Here, Tyrion is angry because he believes his father, not once but twice, used women in his employ to humiliate Tyrion for no better reason than to .... with him and make him miserable.

Now of course, book readers know that this revelation also changes Tyrion's relationship with Jaime in the books. I'm thinking that simply doesn't matter, however. Book readers will know why.

One change I don't think any book reader will complain about is Brienne duking it out with the Hound. This actually gave the Hound's exit from the story at lot more meaning than what it had in the book, and added some real substance to Brienne's story as well. Plus, that was a really great knuckle cracker of a fight. They both absolutely just nailed it.

I kinda wish they had moved at least part of the opening with Stannis to the end of last week's episode instead, would have provided for a more satisfying resolution, ending with a shot of Stannis and Davos riding up to Mance. (Ciaran Hinds also nailed it as Mance again, just love how that guy plays him.) The other parts were good though. One thing I really liked was how they framed Jon and Melisandre watching each other through the fire of the funeral pyre, and it was a great way to introduce Melisandre to that setting.

Oh yeah, and ....ing skeleton warriors! That shit was just *awesome*.


----------



## GoldDragon

gunshow86de said:


> I'm part of the "Tyrion's escape was too rushed" crowd. Him and Jaime don't exactly part on good terms. I also don't like him killing Tywin as a "heat of the moment" type of thing. It's one of the few instances where I feel that deviating from the source material made the show worse, instead of just different.



I think the killing of Tywin was better in the show than in the books. 

In the show, it wasn't exactly clear that he intended to kill his father. He saw Shae and realized she had used him, felt betrayed, and the hypocrisy of his father for sleeping with a whore who Tyrion had been forbidden to see.

When Tyrion find his father, you can tell he's conflicted about it. His father attempts to talk his way out of it, pull Tyrion's strings, but his arrogance pushed Tyrion over the edge. In the book, this dynamic was not as well developed.

Some people believe they are bigger fans because they read the books, but honestly, the show is 10x what the books are. GOT is an incredibly well made drama, SOFAI started strong, but the later books are relative garbage, and none of it is particularly well writen or dramatic. Check the amazon ratings of the last two books, most agree.

I am going to stop reading the books, hopefully I can enjoy the show more.

BTW, I thought the Hounds death scene was great, he was one of my favorite characters; a bit disappointed that they had Briene beat him in combat- not believeable.


----------



## Xaios

GoldDragon said:


> a bit disappointed that they had Briene beat him in combat- not believeable.



I'd say it's totally believable that she'd be able to match him. Yes, the Hound is a beast, but they make a point of showing that Brienne is one of the most skilled fighters in Renly's employ before he gets shadow-shanked. And then she bested Jaime on the road south. Even though he was in manacles, he was also widely believed to be the finest swordsman in all of Westeros (prior to getting a handectomy, that is). People even favored him in single-combat over _the Mountain_.


----------



## crg123

^ I was surprised the had Briene kill him too when the Hound's suppose to be an absolute monster of a warrior. The fight scene was pretty cool though.


----------



## rectifryer

This season seemed to cram more substance in than drama. I thought the entire season had a more lore feel to it than focusing so much on emotions. The finale was a bit rushed, however. A lot of significant changes happened during that show that weren't really expanded to their full dramatic potential. Overall, it was still fantastic. I don't have any real complaints. It is VERY rare that I feel a show has more substance than drama lol.

It sucked to see the hound go.


----------



## sakeido

No


Spoiler



Lady Stoneheart


 is extremely puzzling to me since that seemed like the ultimate bombshell to end the season on, but they went with a much different type of season finale than other shows would have... a lot of times they will leave all kinds of cliffhangers out there to get you back for the next premiere, but they went all-in on resolution last night. 

Still pretty great for the most part. They aren't doing quite what I thought they would, with the Lannisters.

Jamie


Spoiler



was getting into his redemption right about now, but with the rapey love scene at Joff's wake and him rekindling his relationship with Cersei they have set him back. Must be a season 5 storyline. They still have other options to drive a wedge between him and Cersei again. Kevan Lannister is likely going back to King's Landing to serve as Hand, and he will have Lancel with him who may reveal Cersei's infidelity in a fit of piety, putting him back on a path more like the books again.



But then with Cersei


Spoiler



The whole bit with her children, ripping into Tywin and re-affirming her love for Jaime isn't what I thought they'd do. I would play up her villany even more, making it all the sweeter when she starts getting her comeuppance in season 5. It'll be nice to finally see the Lannister fortunes wane after 4 seasons of the Starks getting ....ed over.



Tyrion and Tywin's bit was pretty good though.

My biggest holy shit moment was 


Spoiler



Jojen getting horrifically killed right at the foot of the big tree. God damn. Murdered so hard - stabbed in the gut by a wight, sister slits his throat, then they blow up his body.


 The Bran scene immediately following that was not so good - it was all special effects, and the script writing was just brutal. The Child of the Forest and the Three Eyed Raven should have had far more epic lines than that cornball stuff. And after all that, Bran still asks if he will walk again? Yikes. 

This is interesting though. They have used up almost all of the books for a lot of characters now. This is uncharted territory! I have a reasonable amount of faith the showrunners can carry it off just fine, in all likelihood seasons 5 and 6 will be much better than books 4 and 5, but who knows. Maybe the actual story is falling apart at a more fundamental level than I've realized, since I've been distracted by the godawful pacing and writing in the last two books, and there is no way for this to end on a quality note.

With some of the iffy shit from the later books drawing near


Spoiler



like another Targaryen heir suddenly appearing out of nowhere, a bunch of Greyjoys getting POVs (Victarion could be ultra cool though), the slow-as-molasses Dorne plot


I am intensely curious to see what the show keeps, changes, or leaves out


----------



## gunshow86de

Don't forget that the Hound had an infected wound limiting his fighting ability and strength (plus they interrupted his morning bowel movement). Maybe he ate some spoiled chicken too?


----------



## sakeido

gunshow86de said:


> Don't forget that the Hound had an infected wound limiting his fighting ability and strength (plus they interrupted his morning bowel movement). Maybe he ate some spoiled chicken too?



I thought when she started bashing him on the side of the neck he would just fold and lose right there. Like the infection would become his weak point


----------



## SKoG

GoldDragon said:


> I think the killing of Tywin was better in the show than in the books.
> 
> In the show, it wasn't exactly clear that he intended to kill his father. He saw Shae and realized she had used him, felt betrayed, and the hypocrisy of his father for sleeping with a whore who Tyrion had been forbidden to see.
> 
> When Tyrion find his father, you can tell he's conflicted about it. His father attempts to talk his way out of it, pull Tyrion's strings, but his arrogance pushed Tyrion over the edge. In the book, this dynamic was not as well developed.



In the book his father attempted to talk his way out of it, saying Tyrion could still take the black and he never would have had him killed. Tywin's arrogance and continued lies about Tysha combined with the Shae situation pushed him over the edge. It was better developed in the books with the Tyrion & Jaime scene preceding it and he had a lot more reason to kill Tywin in the book considering Tysha.




GoldDragon said:


> Some people believe they are bigger fans because they read the books, but honestly, the show is 10x what the books are. GOT is an incredibly well made drama, SOFAI started strong, but the later books are relative garbage, and none of it is particularly well writen or dramatic. Check the amazon ratings of the last two books, most agree.



The content these scenes were based on came from the third book, which was the highest rated book of them all. It's fine you didn't like the latest two books as much, I can understand why, but really? 3.7 and 3.8 ratings on the last two with like 36% and 40% giving 5-stars is "most agreeing" that it's "relative garbage"?


----------



## crg123

Xaios said:


> Oh yeah, and ....ing skeleton warriors! That shit was just *awesome*.



OT: I loved that especially as a legend of zelda fan. That's the first thing I thought of when they crawled out of the ground. Reminded me of that fear of when night would fall while you were in an open field area if a grave yard. Start seeing them pop up and scream your head off... At least until you could easily fight them back hahaha.


----------



## rectifryer

Personally, I was thinking more along the lines of Skyrim or diablo3 lol.


----------



## GoldDragon

Xaios said:


> I'd say it's totally believable that she'd be able to match him. Yes, the Hound is a beast, but they make a point of showing that Brienne is one of the most skilled fighters in Renly's employ before he gets shadow-shanked. And then she bested Jaime on the road south. Even though he was in manacles, he was also widely believed to be the finest swordsman in all of Westeros (prior to getting a handectomy, that is). People even favored him in single-combat over _the Mountain_.



I think my objection is the way they did it. She didn't beat him at swordsmanship, she beat him in physicality and rage. The hound is supposed to be 6'6", and a huge man, briene is shorter and a woman. 

The fight was brutal but I just didn't believe she would have the endurance or strength to throw the Hound around. If she won with a sword, more believeable.


----------



## GoldDragon

SKoG said:


> In the book his father attempted to talk his way out of it, saying Tyrion could still take the black and he never would have had him killed. Tywin's arrogance and continued lies about Tysha combined with the Shae situation pushed him over the edge. It was better developed in the books with the Tyrion & Jaime scene preceding it and he had a lot more reason to kill Tywin in the book considering Tysha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The content these scenes were based on came from the third book, which was the highest rated book of them all. It's fine you didn't like the latest two books as much, I can understand why, but really? 3.7 and 3.8 ratings on the last two with like 36% and 40% giving 5-stars is "most agreeing" that it's "relative garbage"?



GOT is a 5/5 show. There are tons of 3.5ish fantasy books. I read like 12 books into the Wheel of Time series and it felt like Deja Vu. Feels like GRM is milking it or has just abandoned dramatic structure for exposition. I think a computer could be writing it. No let me take that back, if a computer was writing it, the series would be finished.


----------



## wankerness

rectifryer said:


> Personally, I was thinking more along the lines of Skyrim or diablo3 lol.



Goshdarn kids these days, unaware of the real classics!










The dumb fairy kid bugged me though, looked like the kid from Legend and threw fireballs like Tim the Enchanter.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Nothing I can really say that's not already been said but STANNIS THE MANNIS did not disappoint, ....ing finally, been waiting to see how they would handle his arrival in the North and I was not disappointed at all, those few minutes raised my testosterone levels higher than the entirety of the chest hair-fertilising previous episode.

Also, the Braavosi captain in the final scene was played by Gary Oliver who teaches speech+drama around where I live (including me, but in an informal club when I was like 7, he doesn't remember me now) along with his wife, I see him at my school all the time (including today before I came home and watched the episode!) which completely overrode anything else I was seeing in that scene


----------



## naw38

wankerness said:


> Goshdarn kids these days, unaware of the real classics!




Yeah, that's the first thing that popped into my head as well. Amazing how far technology's come since then.

On the topic of Brienne vs. The Hound, which I'm seeing all over the internet, size/strength has nothing to do with swordsmanship(in real life, that is - the swordsmanship on the show is far from realistic, but let's apply a bit of reality to it here), and neither should the brawling that came after the sword fight - to an extent. 

In Italian longsword technique, as recorded by Fiore be Liberi in the 14th century, it was taught that you should fight to win in any way - and if that meant elbowing a man in the face or kicking in him in the nuts, that was alright as long as it saved you from getting killed. As such, swordsmen back in the day were taught not only how to fight with a sword, but also wrestling. You know, locks, throws, disarming, pressure points - all stuff that could be used by a smaller person to gain the upper hand on a larger, stronger person. 

Strength doesn't even come into it when in the bind, fighting sword on sword - all those bits where the two people have their swords crossed against each other and are trying to force the other person back - one of the first plays you get taught in any sword fighting school is that if you feel pressure like that, you simply loosen your grip, let your own sword spin back, and smash them in the face with your pommel. If that makes sense - it's kind of hard to explain in writing.

Again, I realise the show is a fantasy and that proper sword fighting techniques might not look as dramatic on TV, but still - in real life, there's no reason why Brienne wouldn't be able to take The Hound. Also, she beat Loras Tyrell, who's supposed to be one of the finest swordsmen in the kingdom.


----------



## MBMoreno

Man, I was really disappointed with the finale. I knew what would happen, but they didn't execute it as well as they could and in fact did in previous episodes. The only scenes I could see some "impact" on, were the ones with Jon Snow. 
Not even gonna talk about the Hound.

I've read the books a while ago, but


Spoiler



that bomber Leaf was a joke IMO. 
Also Coldhands because of reasons.

AND NO FREAKING LADY STONEHEART? I'm not a writer, director or even producer, but fvck me sideways if that isn't how you end a season.


----------



## mongey

I loved the episode. It did feel a little rushed in parts but they got through allot

I thought all the story lines were left in real solid places . didint feel like a cliffhanger /cop out season ending


havent read the books though. am borrowing the 1st one off my brother in law this weekend


----------



## AxeHappy

I honestly felt confused when watching it today, as it's been long enough since I read the books that stuff felt wrong, but I wasn't sure what exactly.

Half the episode felt like they just threw the source material away and the only half felt rushed, forced and not nearly as awesome as it should have been.


And Brienne has been well established as one of the finest fighters in the land. Easily capable of taking on an injured Hound.


----------



## GoldDragon

Stil disagree about Briene vs Hound. Only the first half of fight was a swordfight. The second half where it was lost/won was wresting and punching. 

Even so, STRENGTH plays a HUGE role when swinging iron; what you learned in fencing class is BS. If it was a real swordfight, Briene would have tired out much sooner than the hound. Even if you take the strongest woman in the world and pit her against a man in the 90% percentile, she will be relatively weak. A womans strength, any measure will be less than half of an equally trained man, and there is an upper limit to arm/shouldre strength, and only having about 1/10th the Testosterone is a huge disadvantage.

I know its a fantasy show, but to keep it credible they should have kept it a sword fight. When she was tossing him around and raging on him I felt they disrespected the Hound's real ability/strength.


----------



## bouVIP

Wasn't the Hound suffering from an infected wound for some time? That makes it more plausible that he could be beaten since he's weaker due to the wound.


----------



## mongey

IMHO hound was sick with infected wound that he wouldnt let Aria burn out and kill infection and Breinne beating him makes sense


----------



## naw38

GoldDragon said:


> Even so, STRENGTH plays a HUGE role when swinging iron; what you learned in fencing class is BS.



I'm not talking about fencing - I'm talking about longsword/bastard sword/hand and a half sword, used in battle, not in sport(we do use it as a sport nowadays, but still, not fencing.). They typically weight about 2.5KG's, not heavy at all. And there's not much strength used at all - you hold a properly sharpened blade above someones shoulder, and just let it fall, it's going to cut through flesh. Not bone, but it will wound. 
To make a fendente(cut from above) from post di donna(sword wresting on your shoulder behind you, held in both hands), all you need to do is make a punching motion with your leading hand towards your opponent. The blade follows through and down. Again, it's not a matter of strength, it's about fluidity of motion. 
Anybody in a sword fight using strength to swing their sword around is going to tire themselves out, and more than likely, leave themselves open for an attack. Which is terrible technique.

And as for the wrestling, well, my two HEMA instructors are a huge Australian bloke, and a comparatively diminutive asian man. And I've seen my smaller instructor throw the other guy to the ground plenty of times. 

Seriously, strength has little to do with it. It's all technique, training, and how much practice you've put in to hone your instincts. Also, not so long ago, it was a woman that won a major Longsword tournament, so there! (Feel free to disregard that last point, I can't find the article I read about her.)

All that said, Guy Windsor took a look at the video of that cluster.... of a memorial service in India, where a huge fight broke out and people ran around swinging swords at each other, and made a good point that even with plenty of training, in the heat of battle, people tend to disregard training in favour of freaking out and swinging their swords around wildly like they were iron bars. But still. 

Go Brienne!

Edit: Found links. 

http://fashionablygeek.com/videos-2/this-armored-lady-won-the-longsword-competition-at-a-world-invitational-tournament/

http://www.jousting.co.nz/Content_4.aspx

Double edit. Just saw your post comment about her winning in terms of "pure physicality and rage". Yeah... He probably should have had her. Cool fight though.


----------



## gunshow86de

Okay, this is pretty good.


----------



## SKoG

GoldDragon said:


> GOT is a 5/5 show. There are tons of 3.5ish fantasy books. I read like 12 books into the Wheel of Time series and it felt like Deja Vu. Feels like GRM is milking it or has just abandoned dramatic structure for exposition. I think a computer could be writing it. No let me take that back, if a computer was writing it, the series would be finished.



I disagree. It's a very good show but I'm worried it will start to show more shallowness and fictional cliche as they cut out more back-story, history, and motives to keep it easier to follow. I don't think they will give the devoted (non-reader) show-watchers enough credit to have the ability to follow it. I hope I am wrong because it's still my favorite TV show.

Next season will be a real test. Will we see


Spoiler



Young Griff, Maggy the Frog & Cersei's scheming, Mance's son, LSH, etc.


 or will they be cut out for simplicity's sake? (Meanwhile we get a fireball-throwing Child blowing up _Clash of the Titans_ skeletons)

As for the last two books, again, I understand why people don't like them as much, there are good reasons.


Spoiler



Like their favorite character not even being in it at all, or characters getting stuck in drawn out development arcs. I know, I found the Dany chapters painfully slow, but the books were setups and getting everything in order and everyone in place leading to the finales.


----------



## AxeHappy

I think it's a 3.5-4 star show, but most TV is somewhere around -10 so it seems beyond brilliant in comparison.

I also enjoyed the last two books as much as the rest of the books. *shrugs*

Based off the last episode and some of the other changes I am pretty worriee about what will happen. But since it is one of my favourite shows I remain cautiously optimistic.


----------



## MFB

I'd say book 4 was better than most of the series, because not only did you get the story from a fresh perspective of the "secondary" characters, but that also meant you got to see Cersei unwind and see just how far her spiral goes and man is it fvcking awesome.


----------



## SKoG

MFB said:


> I'd say book 4 was better than most of the series, because not only did you get the story from a fresh perspective of the "secondary" characters, but that also meant you got to see Cersei unwind and see just how far her spiral goes and man is it fvcking awesome.



I agree, the Cersei and Jamie chapters in book 4 are standouts for me out of all of the books, and I'm worried how they changed Tyrion and Jamie's goodbye will change things going forward in the series. I really really hope they don't try to dumb it down as much as I think they will on the show. Lena could have an Emmy easily if they don't screw it up, but I thought the same about what could have happened on Sunday.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## Xaios

I quite enjoyed Jaime's chapters from A Feast for Crows, Cersei's were a little more hit and miss. But boy howdy, that ending! Delicious. 

A Feast For Crows also has one of my very favorite quotes in the series. *I'm putting it in spoiler tags so you don't read it if you don't want to, but it is NOT a plot spoiler.*



Spoiler



There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. Theyve heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

Then they get a taste of battle.

For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after theyve been gutted by an axe.

They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when thats still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands theyre fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there its just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They dont know where they are or how to get back home and the lord theyre fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world

And the man breaks.

He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear thembut he should pity them as well.


----------



## GoldDragon

naw38 said:


> I'm not talking about fencing - I'm talking about longsword/bastard sword/hand and a half sword, used in battle, not in sport(we do use it as a sport nowadays, but still, not fencing.). They typically weight about 2.5KG's, not heavy at all. And there's not much strength used at all - you hold a properly sharpened blade above someones shoulder, and just let it fall, it's going to cut through flesh. Not bone, but it will wound.
> To make a fendente(cut from above) from post di donna(sword wresting on your shoulder behind you, held in both hands), all you need to do is make a punching motion with your leading hand towards your opponent. The blade follows through and down. Again, it's not a matter of strength, it's about fluidity of motion.
> Anybody in a sword fight using strength to swing their sword around is going to tire themselves out, and more than likely, leave themselves open for an attack. Which is terrible technique.
> 
> And as for the wrestling, well, my two HEMA instructors are a huge Australian bloke, and a comparatively diminutive asian man. And I've seen my smaller instructor throw the other guy to the ground plenty of times.
> 
> Seriously, strength has little to do with it. It's all technique, training, and how much practice you've put in to hone your instincts. Also, not so long ago, it was a woman that won a major Longsword tournament, so there! (Feel free to disregard that last point, I can't find the article I read about her.)
> 
> All that said, Guy Windsor took a look at the video of that cluster.... of a memorial service in India, where a huge fight broke out and people ran around swinging swords at each other, and made a good point that even with plenty of training, in the heat of battle, people tend to disregard training in favour of freaking out and swinging their swords around wildly like they were iron bars. But still.
> 
> Go Brienne!
> 
> Edit: Found links.
> 
> This Armored Lady Won The Longsword Competition At a World Invitational Tournament
> 
> Harcourt Park 2013
> 
> Double edit. Just saw your post comment about her winning in terms of "pure physicality and rage". Yeah... He probably should have had her. Cool fight though.



Sounds like you know what you're talking about but I'm going to tell you what The Hound told Arya. "Your friend is dead because he didn't have a sword and he didn't have any ***** armor!"

Letting a sword fall on armor is not going to do any damage. As armor was no longer worn towards modern times, weapons evolved to be smaller and lighter and is probably the kind of blade you have experience with. Those swords they used were heavy and you had to worry about being disarmed and shock of a blow through your arm.

Even in fencing I could bully the little guys with a foil, arm strength and size are huge in any real swordfighting. In modern point fencing, especially foil stength is a detriment because athletic build equals larger target. The best fencers are rail thin. Real swordfighting where youre trying to kill your opponent and everyone is wearing armor, sadly the guy built like The Rock is going to win.


----------



## stevexc

Better technique will beat brute strength, which the Hound has in spades. The Hound usually wins fights because he's big and intimidating - Brienne won because she is a better swords(wo)man. The Hound isn't the kind of guy that'll go out of his way to fight "good fighters", he'll prey on the weak.


----------



## GoldDragon

SKoG said:


> I disagree. It's a very good show but I'm worried it will start to show more shallowness and fictional cliche as they cut out more back-story, history, and motives to keep it easier to follow. I don't think they will give the devoted (non-reader) show-watchers enough credit to have the ability to follow it. I hope I am wrong because it's still my favorite TV show.



Thats possible. It may be that because we read the books, we feel we know the characters better and the show has more impact. Other people watching it may already feel its shallow and are just watching it for the gore. Thats why I'm going to stop reading the books, I feel I will enjoy the show more but I could be wrong.


----------



## GoldDragon

SKoG said:


> As for the last two books, again, I understand why people don't like them as much, there are good reasons.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Like their favorite character not even being in it at all, or characters getting stuck in drawn out development arcs. I know, I found the Dany chapters painfully slow, but the books were setups and getting everything in order and everyone in place leading to the finales.



I like the Dany parts of the show much better. I don't dislike the last two books because they didn't have much of my favorite characters, but perhaps because there are so many tangents


Spoiler



like the Lady Stoneheart and Briene stories that never seem to go anywhere. Seems like padding.


 Cersei's "development" was entertaining. They still have so much ground to cover from the 4th and 5th book, I don't see how they can do the show in 7 seasons, unless they really condense the story. GRRM said he wanted 13 ep per season. Still I am amazed at how much story they can cram into an hour.


----------



## Xaios

^ Uh, spoiler tags dawg.


----------



## MBMoreno

gunshow86de said:


>



Book spoiler and doubt



Spoiler



Wasn't he supposed to hide, as the master of disguise that he is? I don't remember him leaving Westeros with Tyrion


----------



## ghost_of_karelia

Am I the only one who just loved that wildling guy who got beasted by a horse during Stannis' and Davos' badass march to Mance? I burst out laughing in the most inappropriate moments.


----------



## crg123

Jesus Christ that's a lot of green Xaios! Your going to start making The Wall itself jealous soon.

Jk. bad joke but it made me laugh . Great bit of text from the book though.


----------



## gunshow86de

jarvncaredoc said:


> Am I the only one who just loved that wildling guy who got beasted by a horse during Stannis' and Davos' badass march to Mance? I burst out laughing in the most inappropriate moments.



I think his name was Leeroy?


----------



## gunshow86de

Looks like Ser Davos smuggled himself into the World Cup.


----------



## liamh

Since when did Ser Davos swear fealty to House Silva?


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

gunshow86de said:


> Looks like Ser Davos smuggled himself into the World Cup.



Google search confirmed it's him. That's awesome hahahaha


----------



## Deadnightshade

MBMoreno said:


> Book spoiler and doubt
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't he supposed to hide, as the master of disguise that he is? I don't remember him leaving Westeros with Tyrion





Spoiler



If I remember correctly, Tyrion's POV until reaching Pentos was inside a container(s). So it's not out of the question that Varys accompanied him up to a point in the journey in order to meet with Illyrio or send a message to him with a trusted "little bird". If he did meet with Illyrio and chose not to say goodbye to Tyrion that's another story I suppose.


----------



## gunshow86de

liamh said:


> Since when did Ser Davos swear fealty to House Silva?



A good smuggler knows how to blend; get in and out with no fuss.


----------



## Xaios

gunshow86de said:


> I think his name was Leeroy?



At least he has chicken.


----------



## wankerness

I rewatched the finale. The Tyrion and Jaime stuff still blows. The stuff with the hound and Arya is one of the best scenes of the entire series, though. 






Right after the fight was what really killed me and made me realize that guy is (was?) the show's secret MVP. "Safety!? Where the ....'s that?" It was the first time he couldn't help showing he cared about her, especially after the fight where he tells her to go with Brienne and when she refuses you can hear his sadness. "Going it alone... you won't last a day out there." Man, that was some depressing stuff. The book didn't come close in that scene. It kind of evens out the failure with the Tyrion stuff.


----------



## gunshow86de

Quiz: Which Game of Thrones character would you be? Quiz - The Oatmeal

Who did you get?


----------



## AliceLG

that quiz is hilarious!


----------



## Kullerbytta

Seriously... How is it possible they f_u_cked up _that bad_? 
I don't remember S3 finale but I remember not giving a shit about it as a finale. I get that they din't wanna use the Red Wedding as a finale and I get that it'd be hard to cram something exciting into the S3 finale considering it's like somewhere in the middle o' A Storm of Swords... But if it was me in charge I'd go with Red Wedding as a finale. 

Regarding the S4 finale... Why did they bother with adding shit that's not in the books when they could have spent that time making the important scenes better? 
Kind of like adding that Ros-character in S1 and 2. I wtf:ed so hard about that.

Tyrion/Tywin and Tyrion-Jaime was, as previously mentioned, handled in a horrible manner when it could easily have been handled better. 

... Sorry. It's not that bad of a finale, but it sure as hell ain't a great one either. 
But above all...


Spoiler



No Lady Stoneheart? Are they seriously not aware of how much of a positive and surprising impact that would have on the audiences that haven't read the books? 
Also; it's not like that was the actual ending to Blood and Gold or anything... 
If they randomly introduce her in like ep. 1, 2 or 3 in the fifth season I don't know if I will be able to contain my rage-wuts


----------



## wankerness

They might not introduce it at all, we have to remember that the show creators actually know how the story ends and thus know what characters/events are/aren't important in the grand scheme of things.



Spoiler



More likely, though, they'll just start introducing dead Freys and have Brienne/Pod encounter her as a big WTF moment at the end of the season finale or something.


----------



## SKoG

wankerness said:


> They might not introduce it at all, we have to remember that the show creators actually know how the story ends and thus know what characters/events are/aren't important in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> More likely, though, they'll just start introducing dead Freys and have Brienne/Pod encounter her as a big WTF moment at the end of the season finale or something.





Spoiler



I agree. I didn't have a problem with no LSH in the finale since we didn't see any of her actions in the episode and we haven't even seen Beric and Brotherhood Without Banners for a while. It would be a cheap reveal to just have LSH come out of nowhere without a build-up that gets viewers interested in 'who is taking revenge on the Freys?' I wouldn't even mind if it was a mid-season episode-ender. 

I would be very disappointed if we didn't get any LSH, though, even if she isn't an important end-game figure. It looks like they're going forward with the Mountain-monster, so you'd think they've figured that viewers will accept that "resurrection" is possible beyond Beric and continue with LSH..

..but if they skip on any further 'resurrection' because they don't think viewers will buy into it, yet keep fireball-throwing Children, I may rage.


----------



## soliloquy

i just finished season 4 and i'm once again left with more questions than answers regarding that damned wall. 



Spoiler



if anyone would be kind enough to explain this to me. the wall gets attacked by the wildlings in the second last episode of the season. now, the wildlings are people living to the north that are not protected by the wall, nor under the protection of the reigning king at the moment. nor do the wildlings have anything to do with the game of thrones. 

the wall is separating the 'common' folk from the northerners. the wall is huge, hard to climb. if the climb wont get you, then the impending white walkers will. if that wont get you, then the walking skeletons will. if not that, then the cannibals. if not that, then god knows what....

however, during the raid, they kept saying that that the wall is getting attacked from both the north AND the south. they kept showing that too that the giants and climbers are attacking from the north. while the archers and cannibals are attacking from the south. so, that means the wildlings have a way to get to the south without the wall? right.....


also, forgot his name (no surprise here), but the fat guy who killed the white walker in season 3 by a fluke saved that girl. he brought her to some shack. i was assuming that shack was in the south where it was safe from the northern folk. perhaps i missed something, as the mun (? the cannibals?) raided that too. 

the night watch is there to protect the people of the south. they have nothing to do with the southern. why are the night watch folk trying to protect the southern tribal folk who will end up killing themselves over peanuts or other insestual needs? 


and not that this is related to the wall, but what exactly is the sanza getting out of protecting lord bailish? did they ever explain why lord bailish killed the king aside from 'because he can and he wanted to'?


----------



## stevexc

^^ 



Spoiler



The raiding party that Jon Snow was a part of that met up with the Thenns were the attackers from the South... they climbed over the wall. In small groups that's doable - there was only 50-60 of them give or take. Plus as Osha (Asha? I forget now) mentioned at one point, it's possible to take a boat "across" the wall at the coast.


----------



## Xaios

In response to Soliloquy:



Spoiler



Indeed, Osha crossed in a boat at a place called the Bay of Seals, at the western edge of the wall. She does mention it in the show. The wildlings that were attacking from the south were the party that climbed the wall mid-season 3, plus some Thenns that climbed separately. That same set of parties that climbed the wall mid-season 3 was also the one that raided Mole's Town (the place where Sam hid Gilly) prior to the battle at the wall.

With regards to WHY the Night's Watch protects the people of the south, that is just simply the purpose of the organization. It's their mandate. Otherwise, they're apolitical. However, all the members of the Night's Watch _are_ from the south (south of the wall anyway, not necessarily the southern parts of Westeros.

Also, Sansa saved Littlefinger for two reasons: 1) he saved her from King's Landing, and more importantly, 2) after being the victim of all the political machinations in King's Landing for 3 seasons, she's finally recognizing that she needs to actually play the game if she wants to improve her circumstances, instead of simply being a pawn. To that end, she believes that saving Littlefinger is ultimately in her best interest.

Littlefinger also killed Joffrey for two reasons: 1) because the elimination of Joffrey will ultimately help him advance his stature in the world (which is something that governs pretty much EVERYTHING he does), and 2) to get revenge on the Lannisters for Catlyn's death.

It's all there in the show, dude.


----------



## wankerness

How are questions about stuff that already aired spoilers? How are answers that consist entirely of past seasons' events spoilers? HAS THE WORLD GONE MAD?

















Diana Rigg was a handsome lady, time to go watch On Her Majesty's Secret Service for the 50th time


----------



## donray1527

Natilie Dormer makes me harder than valerian steel.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

donray1527 said:


> Natilie Dormer makes me harder than valerian steel.


----------



## soliloquy

donray1527 said:


> Natilie Dormer makes me harder than valerian steel.



she was also in the tudors. you're welcome


----------



## AliceLG

And in a couple of episodes from the Johnny Lee Miller/Lucy Liu's Sherlock as well.


----------



## donray1527

Thank you google.


----------



## Xaios

SDCC 14: Game of Thrones Season 5 Casting Announced - IGN

Go figure. Alexander Siddig, who I figured would make a great Oberyn Martell, is going to be playing Doran Martell. Somehow, it's just as good a fit.


----------



## gunshow86de

Jonathan Pryce as High Sparrow/


Spoiler



Howland Reed (yes I know it's just a theory)


 is gonna be fvcking awesome!


----------



## Cbutler

wankerness said:


> Right after the fight was what really killed me and made me realize that guy is (was?) the show's secret MVP. "Safety!? Where the ....'s that?" It was the first time he couldn't help showing he cared about her, especially after the fight where he tells her to go with Brienne and when she refuses you can hear his sadness. "Going it alone... you won't last a day out there." Man, that was some depressing stuff. The book didn't come close in that scene. It kind of evens out the failure with the Tyrion stuff.



god damn so much this. finished the series so far a couple weeks ago and just started reading the book.. definitely have to subscribe to this thread


----------



## stuglue

I bought the box set of seasons 1-3 about a month. Didn't know anything about the show but it had come recommended by a few people.
I'm amazed this airs in America, there's plenty of gash and tits in display. Surely the uptight ultra conservative gun nut types must have complained about the nudity and cuss words.
Strange that guns are perfectly accepted on American TV yet the mere hint of breasts sends them into censorship overload.
As for the show itself it was a slow burner, it hasn't grabbed me like Breaking Bad. We finished season 4( had to download that one) a few days ago and overall enjoyed it more than the previous seasons.


----------



## SKoG

stuglue said:


> I bought the box set of seasons 1-3 about a month. Didn't know anything about the show but it had come recommended by a few people.
> I'm amazed this airs in America, there's plenty of gash and tits in display. Surely the uptight ultra conservative gun nut types must have complained about the nudity and cuss words.
> Strange that guns are perfectly accepted on American TV yet the mere hint of breasts sends them into censorship overload.
> As for the show itself it was a slow burner, it hasn't grabbed me like Breaking Bad. We finished season 4( had to download that one) a few days ago and overall enjoyed it more than the previous seasons.



It's produced by and airs on HBO, which everyone accepts will have that type of content. The censorship stories you hear about are CBS, FOX, ABC, NBC network TV issues, which traditionally fall under a different set of rules. Once you get to cable channels, and especially the premium channels, the rules are few-to-none and what they show will depend on the demographic they're aiming for and what their advertisers are willing to buy time for. 

The premium channels like HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, Starz, which have no advertisements will show pretty much anything. HBO and Cinemax have always been known for their sexual content, especially at night. On HBOFamily you could have a kid's show and two channels away on HBOZone you could have "Alien Busty Babes" soft-core porn. 

Even regular cable channels, a channel like IFC in particular, which has advertisements every 15 minutes or whatever, will show movies with breasts to full frontal nudity.


----------



## MFB

Not to mention, after like 11PM now, you can swear regularly. I've heard the word 'fvck' numerous times during stand up specials, as well as much worse and was very surprised. It makes sense since it's 2014 and all, but it's still kind of surprising since I remember being a kid and hearing 'shit' on TV was jaw-dropping.


----------



## wankerness

The only rules on HBO and Showtime etc are that they can't show erect penises and they can't show visible labia (let alone any orifices). Thus you got awkward stuff like whatshisname the now-neutered being flaccid 1 second after sex in season 1. 

American basic cable can get away with any amount of violence imaginable, and they can use "shit" after 11 pm. No nudity, though.

American network TV can get away with any amount of violence imaginable, but you better not have any usage of the word "shit" or any nudity or it will be bad for the children. Hannibal's violence is seriously stronger than most R rated horror movies, and that is allowed to stand on network TV cause violence and gore are healthy. It was fine when they showed a woman chopped into 8 pieces lengthwise in loving detail, but they had to make sure her nipples were censored, otherwise it would have been offensive. All her internal organs, though, totally fine.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Whereas I was flipping through the Korean channels I have the other day, and they were censoring someone smoking. You could see the cigarette in his hand just fine, but as soon as he brought it to his lips to inhale, the whole thing was blurred out, then unblurred again when he took it away to exhale. It was hilarious.


----------



## SKoG

I agree that our priorities are screwed up when it comes to violence and nudity on TV, but there really aren't any rules like that for cable. The FCC doesn't have authority over content like that. Regular cable channels like TCM, Sundance, IFC, etc., will show nudity. It's up to the people running the channels and their agreements with advertisers (if they have them) and the cable service providers and the expectations of the viewers, whether the channel wants to risk alienating them. 

For example, here is the FCC's response to complaints about Nip/Tuck on FX:
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2005/DA-05-528A1.html


----------



## wankerness

SKoG said:


> I agree that our priorities are screwed up when it comes to violence and nudity on TV, but there really aren't any rules like that for cable. The FCC doesn't have authority over content like that. Regular cable channels like TCM, Sundance, IFC, etc., will show nudity. It's up to the people running the channels and their agreements with advertisers (if they have them) and the cable service providers and the expectations of the viewers, whether the channel wants to risk alienating them.
> 
> For example, here is the FCC's response to complaints about Nip/Tuck on FX:
> http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2005/DA-05-528A1.html



Sundance and IFC only come with "extended packages" for cable as far as I've seen, and thus are basically premium. TCM probably can get away with it since they're actually showing classy movies most of the time (and old horror/sci-fi the rest of the time) and make a big deal out of showing them properly. I guess getting mad about it would be like getting mad at the art gallery for having nudes in it or the library for having Naked Lunch in it - some people still will freak out, but generally people don't care cause it's in a more stodgy, academic context.


----------



## Vostre Roy

Seasons premier today


----------



## wankerness

The first FOUR episodes somehow got out, I don't know if I'm going to be able to resist!

I'm pretty worried about this season since the third book is the last one most people like, and last season sure managed to botch some parts of it (particularly Tyrrion's big scenes at the end!). Guess we'll see what happens.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I couldn't resist and watched the first three.

I'm a big fan of the books and was very skeptical of how they would pull this season off but so far its been great. Some of the best scenes they've done and the music is much more fitting now.

On the downside I've to wait four weeks for episode 5 now.


----------



## michblanch

They do an excellent job of giving great season opening first episodes. 
Looking forward to watching.


----------



## wankerness

It's low on action and nudity compared to previous seasons so far. The first episode has more male nudity than female. The SJWs got their way! 

The fourth episode is the first really exciting one. The first three aren't bad at all though. All but one of the plotlines so far are good, though, which is saying something cause usually each season had something that totally sucked (ex Daenerys in S2 pouting about her dragons, everything with Greyjoy in S3 and S4, etc). The only thing that's terrible are the poochified sand snakes, but everyone called that in the promo videos. The one covered in babyfat that looks like a singer for a weepy singer-songwriting duo is the most egregious. NOTE: Not saying she's FAT, just saying she's COMPLETELY unconvincing as some kind of hardened badass desert warrior cause she has the muscle tone and complexion of a professional couch potato.









Having read the fourth book, only two of the plotlines so far seem to be from it, everything else is totally new to me. I haven't read the fifth book, though, so maybe some of the other ones are from there.

I'll discuss the episodes as they air, they're pretty good, I think it's at least as good as the previous season so far. I don't think people will be too disappointed (besides by the sand snakes).


----------



## Deadnightshade

I understand that sometimes changes have to be made in order to facilitate the production, or make for better TV. But there were a lot of instances were they could and should have been more loyal to the book, in multiple storylines. Still enjoyable, but I feel like they are rushing parts of A Feast for Crows that shouldn't be rushed, and introducing small to medium deviations that kind of felt cheap to me.


----------



## AliceLG

First episode watched. Worth the wait, it had very interesting parts all around. Not many weak points to be honest.

I will restrain myself from getting the leaks, I don't think I can managed waiting a whole month for ep5 so I'll delay gratification. Also, the leaks aren't HD so what's the point


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Deadnightshade said:


> I understand that sometimes changes have to be made in order to facilitate the production, or make for better TV. But there were a lot of instances were they could and should have been more loyal to the book, in multiple storylines. Still enjoyable, but I feel like they are rushing parts of A Feast for Crows that shouldn't be rushed, and introducing small to medium deviations that kind of felt cheap to me.



Season 4 really suffered because of straying from the book, the final episode could have been one of the best TV moments in history if they had stuck to the book.

I'm annoyed they cut Victarion & Euron to make Dorne but the show has already gotten way to big. They are constantly jumping all over the world now with so many stories going on. Its no wonder they had to condense and simplify a lot of AFFC/ADWD. ADWD got very messy with so many new POVs popping up.

With only three seasons left they are going to rush towards the ending.


----------



## mongey

watched the 1st ep last night . thought it was a good round up to last season and a good start for this one 

I'll just watch week by week. Its on mondays here in OZ so its a good way to take the edge off a monday


----------



## wankerness

AliceLG said:


> First episode watched. Worth the wait, it had very interesting parts all around. Not many weak points to be honest.
> 
> I will restrain myself from getting the leaks, I don't think I can managed waiting a whole month for ep5 so I'll delay gratification. Also, the leaks aren't HD so what's the point



Well, if you watch them on a TV from a reasonable distance instead of up close on your computer monitor you will barely notice a difference from broadcast, they're DVD quality, so that's a really poor reason. NOT THAT I CONDONE PIRACY!!  

I prefer getting things in chunks, cause if you are getting one episode a week you tend to notice all the faults way more than if you're binge-watching. That's why watching The Walking Dead was so agonizing, you had to sit there and think about all the stuff that had just happened for an entire week before the next episode happened. It was actually sorta entertaining when I watched season 1 all in one sitting! Breaking Bad Season 4 was probably the worst example of this, I REALLY hated it while the first few episodes aired, they didn't seem to be going anywhere and it made it seem like the whole season would suck so it was like 4 straight weeks of blah. When I bingewatched the whole season a year later, the episodes were totally fine cause I knew where they were going! 

If it weren't for this show being so popular it's impossible to avoid spoilers, I'd just wait to the end of each season before I watched any episodes. I watched season 3 week to week and it was pretty great even in that form, but season 4 was pretty painful. I still haven't worked up the will to rewatch it yet, it might be better when you're not waiting a week between episodes.


----------



## flint757

You'll have a lot of time to contemplate episode 4.


----------



## wankerness

flint757 said:


> You'll have a lot of time to contemplate episode 4.



Not really, it all blends together with the other three. Since I watched so much at once I was too busy being overwhelmed by the awesome to have time to focus on the suck (besides those awful, awful sand snakes). With one episode, there's rarely enough awesome to fill your brain up enough to not remember any bad parts at the end. Now, if I rewatched episode 4 over and over, then I might. I'll just catch up in 4 weeks. 

Anyway, RE: the first episode, the Jamie/Bronn pairing is awesome and definitely my favorite thing about it. It should take the edge off the lack of The Hound and Arya, the previous best duo.


----------



## ridner

those dragons better start BBQing some people soon!


----------



## mongey

really dug the 3rd episode. 1st 2 were great but it felt like they were still rounding off last season . the 3rd felt like it was going places


----------



## vividox

Third one also starts to feel like the show-only stuff is starting to tie together better and gain some traction. I love the books, and I was kind of iffy on some of the changes they'd made, but now I'm starting to feel like I may end up liking S5 more than FFC/DWD.


----------



## ryanougrad

Now I wonder if he is going to have to write the books to fit the show. The show runners are leaving him behind.


----------



## bouVIP

Spoiler



Oh man I don't know if Grey Worm and Barristan are alive, but if they die I will be so sad ;-; I really like their characters


----------



## wankerness

After rewatching this episode, I hate the sand snakes even more. Whoever was in charge of casting them was insane. Casting two tiny, pale, fleshy little women with all the physical imposition of Karen O and then labelling them some kind of desert-dwelling weapon master badasses who stab people with daggers and throw huge spears is just wrong. The third one of them looks fine and I don't have trouble accepting Ellaria as a scary lady, but god, those other two are the worst, especially Tyene. If they take out Bronn or Jamie I'm going to be so furious.


----------



## michblanch

Where are the hell are the little brothers? 
The one who has visions and wanders around with the big dummy?


----------



## stevexc

michblanch said:


> Where are the hell are the little brothers?
> The one who has visions and wanders around with the big dummy?



They're done for now. This season covers Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons, and Bran and Hodor only appeared in a bit of Dance with Dragons - which got mostly covered at the end of last season. Here's a source for you. Rickon's also pretty much disappeared with Osha since the second book, and hasn't shown back up yet.


Spoiler



They're allegedly alive.


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

bouVIP said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Oh man I don't know if Grey Worm and Barristan are alive, but if they die I will be so sad ;-; I really like their characters



I was waiting for when they would finally game-of-throne us. If you ask me, they're gone. 

After that last scene ended, I closed out the video and just went "... god damnit."


----------



## pink freud

To be fair the Sand Snakes in the books are dumb as well. A bunch of bad-ass bitches who have to be put in timeout because the adults actually know what is going on.


----------



## chopeth




----------



## Lorcan Ward

The Stannis & Shireen scene is one of my favourite in the show now. 



pink freud said:


> To be fair the Sand Snakes in the books are dumb as well. A bunch of bad-ass bitches who have to be put in timeout because the adults actually know what is going on.



I could never get into Dorne. It felt so isolated from the main story and introduced WAY to many new characters. The Iron Islands was ok since we had been there before and new most of the characters. It will be interesting to see where they take the Dornish story since its a very slimmed down one.


----------



## Mike

Was any one else bothered by the weird, almost cheesy volume dropout to enhance the drama


Spoiler



Toward the end of the alley fight scene with the sons of the harpy?


 Odd thing that stood out to me lol.


----------



## USMarine75

1. OK I thought I was the only one questioning the casting of these little doughy girls as badass "Amazonian" warriors...







2. Thought the King traveling with such a small security group to visit known armed religious warriors was pretty weak.

3. All of a sudden the Unsullied, these great warriors, can't handle some armed civilians (that lack formal combat training)?

This season has been meh so far...


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

USMarine75 said:


> 2. Thought the King traveling with such a small security group to visit known armed religious warriors was pretty weak.
> 
> 3. All of a sudden the Sullied, these great warriors, can't handle some armed civilians (that lack formal combat training)?
> 
> This season has been meh so far...



I think these two things are cases of complacency and hubris being the downfall of proud characters.

And its clear that the masked dudes are organized, they know the city, have lots of information, and have at least SOME training. Worm killed like 50 of them himself, but the odds were just too much, especially considering they got the jump on him. Imagine a surprise attack from inside a city like that. It would take (relatively) forever for anyone to figure out what was happening.


----------



## vividox

ryanougrad said:


> Now I wonder if he is going to have to write the books to fit the show. The show runners are leaving him behind.


Nah, book and show are pretty much separate entities at this point. He'll write his version, the show will have their version.


----------



## vividox

leftyguitarjoe said:


> And its clear that the masked dudes are organized, they know the city, have lots of information, and have at least SOME training. Worm killed like 50 of them himself, but the odds were just too much, especially considering they got the jump on him. Imagine a surprise attack from inside a city like that. It would take (relatively) forever for anyone to figure out what was happening.


Yeah, no kidding.

There were like 8 unsullied and they took out dozens and dozens of Sons of the Harpies in an ambush. That IS the sign of great warriors. This show isn't all Hollywood-like where one guy can take out 40,000 guys without getting a scratch.


----------



## USMarine75

vividox said:


> Yeah, no kidding.
> 
> There were like 8 unsullied and they took out dozens and dozens of Sons of the Harpies in an ambush. That IS the sign of great warriors. This show isn't all Hollywood-like where one guy can take out 40,000 guys without getting a scratch.



I'll have to rewatch, because to me the it looked like Worm took out dozens and dozens of the Harpies and the others just got slaughtered lol...


----------



## wankerness

I thought they never said anything about the unsullied being particularly spectacular physical specimens, just fearless due to their upbringing. In the books they were specifically referred to as being pudgy (like happens with eunuchs). The show has sorta undermined that idea with Grey Worm being totally ripped though (and that dude in the first episode who gets killed also being chiseled).


----------



## USMarine75

Never read the books. But, I remember Daenerys being sold on the idea that they were great warriors when she was looking for an army. From the wiki page: "They are slave-soldiers famed for their skills and discipline in battle".

Anywho, the scene remeinded me of every White House Down type movie where the mercenaries slaughter the cops/guards/special agents that just stand there as bullet sponges. Then there's always the one good guy (Bruce Willis, Channing Tatum, Liam Neeson, Worm lol) that kills 50 of them. Scene was just a rehash of so many others, which I think GOT usually does a better job of avoiding IMO.


----------



## SeditiousDissent

I'm getting to the point where I don't know if I want to continue watching the show. I've put so much time into the books that I don't want the show to ruin anything (no spoilers: especially regarding the Jon Snow, Arya and Bran arcs). I might have to shelve the show for a decade or so. Hopefully ol' George will have completed TWOW and ADOS by then.

Oh well, at least the new season of _Penny Dreadful_ looks somewhat promising.


----------



## wankerness

SeditiousDissent said:


> I'm getting to the point where I don't know if I want to continue watching the show. I've put so much time into the books that I don't want the show to ruin anything (no spoilers: especially regarding the Jon Snow, Arya and Bran arcs). I might have to shelve the show for a decade or so. Hopefully ol' George will have completed TWOW and ADOS by then.
> 
> Oh well, at least the new season of _Penny Dreadful_ looks somewhat promising.



GRRM said he's going to change his original plan for the books so they would be different from the show.  More likely he'll just die of old age/bad health before finishing them, though. I think if you want the originally intended conclusion you'll probably be stuck with the show.


----------



## vividox

USMarine75 said:


> I'll have to rewatch, because to me the it looked like Worm took out dozens and dozens of the Harpies and the others just got slaughtered lol...


Perhaps. I might have to rewatch too...


----------



## vividox

USMarine75 said:


> Anywho, the scene remeinded me of every White House Down type movie where the mercenaries slaughter the cops/guards/special agents that just stand there as bullet sponges. Then there's always the one good guy (Bruce Willis, Channing Tatum, Liam Neeson, Worm lol) that kills 50 of them. Scene was just a rehash of so many others, which I think GOT usually does a better job of avoiding IMO.


Yeah, that's a good point.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

SeditiousDissent said:


> I'm getting to the point where I don't know if I want to continue watching the show. I've put so much time into the books that I don't want the show to ruin anything (no spoilers: especially regarding the Jon Snow, Arya and Bran arcs). I might have to shelve the show for a decade or so. Hopefully ol' George will have completed TWOW and ADOS by then.



You will have to stay clear of most news & social media sites because when a certain death scene happens the internet will explode if he/she is still alive in season 6. The show is going to finish before the books, maybe even before TWOW even comes out so I wouldn't be able to stop myself from watching.

I laughed way too much at this.


----------



## vividox

That's awesome.


----------



## vividox

I wouldn't be too surprised if TWoW is out by April 2016 (thus BARELY beating out S6 of GoT). GRRM's made enough comments and dropped enough ancillary commitments that I definitely think it's possible.

ADoS? Well, that has no chance of beating anything. Even if GRRM goes straight from TWoW to ADoS (which I think he does, he's oft criticized his decision to take some time off after ADwD) it's going to be 2019 at the absolute earliest.

Also, yes, I spend way too much time following this stuff. Haha.


----------



## wankerness




----------



## MFB

I'm so pissed that's how they took out a character of such renowned. He deserved better.


----------



## AliceLG

Yeah that sucked. Big time. Ser Barristan is a living legend in the books, and was revered in series as an unbeatable swordsman and a wise adviser. This and Sansa's new plot might be just the beginning of all the changes to come.

Another thing that came to mind: if Weiss/Benioff decided to exclude the Griff/Young Griff arc from the show, why would they merge that into the Jorah/Tyrion arc?


Spoiler



I'm talking specifically about giving Jorah greyscale


----------



## vividox

AliceLG said:


> Yeah that sucked. Big time. Ser Barristan is a living legend in the books, and was revered in series as an unbeatable swordsman and a wise adviser. This and Sansa's new plot might be just the beginning of all the changes to come.
> 
> Another thing that came to mind: if Weiss/Benioff decided to exclude the Griff/Young Griff arc from the show, why would they merge that into the Jorah/Tyrion arc?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking specifically about giving Jorah greyscale





Spoiler



To kill off another character, obviously.

More serious answer: maybe they are going to instill Jorah with Jon Connington's ferver to "do the most he can with the rest of his life" in getting Dany on the throne, thus merging Connington/Aegon with Jorah/Dany.


----------



## sakeido

MFB said:


> I'm so pissed that's how they took out a character of such renowned. He deserved better.



Him and Grey Worm were outnumbered what, 10 to 1? They were also surrounded. He was unarmored and maybe, just maybe, he actually was old and much of what he did in his latter days was use his reputation to his advantage ... because never once did we see him fight until that fateful battle.

Even still though, surprised as hell it went down like that. I hated books 4 and 5 and am glad to see the show deviating from them but some of these changes... I dunno.......


----------



## vividox

Just going to throw this out there...

My first read-thru I hated FFC and DWD. On my second read-thru (which I combined FFC and DWD chronologically like this), I loved FFC/DWD. Might give it a shot if you ever get around to going through them again.


----------



## ridner

the dragons finally did something cool!


----------



## MFB

sakeido said:


> Him and Grey Worm were outnumbered what, 10 to 1? They were also surrounded. He was unarmored and maybe, just maybe, he actually was old and much of what he did in his latter days was use his reputation to his advantage ... because never once did we see him fight until that fateful battle.
> 
> Even still though, surprised as hell it went down like that. I hated books 4 and 5 and am glad to see the show deviating from them but some of these changes... I dunno.......



I'm not doubting the battle or anything, as you said, out-numbered and armorless is going to mean certain death in a situation like that; I just feel like he should've gone out in some sort of single combat fighting for Dany's honor, not ganged up on in some back alley like a beggar.


----------



## sakeido

MFB said:


> I'm not doubting the battle or anything, as you said, out-numbered and armorless is going to mean certain death in a situation like that; I just feel like he should've gone out in some sort of single combat fighting for Dany's honor, not ganged up on in some back alley like a beggar.



That is Game of Thrones for you though. An ignominious death for a man who was legendary in his own time... they gotta subvert those expectations.

I believe the showrunners did it this way because (book spoilers)


Spoiler



This now opens up his spot as ruler of Meereen after Danny takes off on Drogon after the fighting pits fight... a spot which is obviously and naturally filled by Tyrion, which is more believable than Barristan taking over anyway. Giving us more of a main character at the tragic cost of a very interesting side character



edit: just read some TV Tropes, they say he killed sixteen guys on his own in that last fight. He still went out like a champion, if true.. I can't check the count myself right now.


----------



## vividox

Yeah, I wouldn't call that ignominious... he definitely went down fighting.


----------



## wankerness

vividox said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't call that ignominious... he definitely went down fighting.



I wasn't disappointed at all by that fight scene, I just laughed really hard when I saw the last frame of that image after all the other quotes. And I was surprised that he was unceremoniously just dead at the beginning of the next ep since they'd gone to such lengths to make you think IS HE OR ISN'T HE?!?!?! That will not hold up well on binge-re-watchings.


----------



## seasloth21

I'm just going to miss a certain fight scene he was in from the end of book 5 now, but he still went out like a boss.


----------



## wankerness

Well, that was a great episode. I'm liking this season a LOT more than last season. Once again, the only problem were the frickin Sand Snakes, who are the worst thing to ever be on this show. My "favorite" scene with them was when one of them got knocked on her back during the fight scene, and she did one of those ninja spring get-up things, but there was a big judder since it was obvious that they'd stopped the camera and switched in a stunt person to do it since the actress they cast was too unathletic to even do that, and they couldn't fix it with CGI to make it look natural thanks to the other stuff in the frame during the actress swap. Terrible. If you're going to cast someone as a badass warrior, please make sure they're at least somewhat athletic!!


----------



## pink freud

There's a lot of outrage over Sansa's scene but I can't fathom how anybody could have thought it would go any other way. Too many people forcing modern morality onto a medieval setting. Hell, under GoT's universe the "Bedding Ceremony" exists purely to make sure the marriage is consummated. Sansa went into this knowing all that.

On the Sand-Snakes thing, if they emulate their dad as much as they think they do it's time to say goodbye to Bronn.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

wankerness said:


> Well, that was a great episode. I'm liking this season a LOT more than last season. Once again, the only problem were the frickin Sand Snakes, who are the worst thing to ever be on this show. My "favorite" scene with them was when one of them got knocked on her back during the fight scene, and she did one of those ninja spring get-up things, but there was a big judder since it was obvious that they'd stopped the camera and switched in a stunt person to do it since the actress they cast was too unathletic to even do that, and they couldn't fix it with CGI to make it look natural thanks to the other stuff in the frame during the actress swap. Terrible. If you're going to cast someone as a badass warrior, please make sure they're at least somewhat athletic!!



Someone made gifs of that and another part. They are so bad
Imgur

Imgur

GOT usually has incredible fight scenes with really thought out choreograph or at least they edit them to look much more intense. This was absolutely pathetic, they are butchering the Dornish storyline.


----------



## Deadnightshade

pink freud said:


> There's a lot of outrage over Sansa's scene



Be thankful that they didn't put Theon to lick her carpet, as he did for the Arya's imposter in the books. 

Also, idiots complaining about anything are going to complain for ever.




I am really curious to see how they are going to play out this storyline, since it's the only one that has deviated so much from the books.




Lorcan Ward said:


> Someone made gifs of that and another part. They are so bad
> Imgur



The first one is hideous . And yes it's a pity, the dornishmen deserved better. Considering how much they've stepped on the gas pedal, I can't see future redemption of this storyline.


----------



## wankerness

Lorcan Ward said:


> Someone made gifs of that and another part. They are so bad
> Imgur
> 
> Imgur
> 
> GOT usually has incredible fight scenes with really thought out choreograph or at least they edit them to look much more intense. This was absolutely pathetic, they are butchering the Dornish storyline.



Haha, they're like something from Xena. They're just plain terrible. I really hope they all get killed off in short order, every time they're on screen the overall quality of the show declines. I'd rather have Jar Jar Binks.


----------



## wankerness

Deadnightshade said:


> Be thankful that they didn't put Theon to lick her carpet, as he did for the Arya's imposter in the books.
> 
> Also, idiots complaining about anything are going to complain for ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am really curious to see how they are going to play out this storyline, since it's the only one that has deviated so much from the books.



If they just assign that character's arc to Sansa there's going to be riots. It would completely undo all the good work they did on her character the last season. I think they probably know better than to do that, but I dunno, the other characters are getting lined up in the right way that they easily could. 

I'm sorta glad they had that scene in there, though. It would have been much stupider and wouldn't have jived with any of the characters' behaviors if he HADN'T done anything bad to her. And yes, they greatly softened it from the book, though who knows, maybe they'll pull a Theon Season 3 and every episode will feature an increasingly awful rape/torture interlude. That would be GREAT!


----------



## mongey

good episode. the Dorne stuff felt a bit rushed though

with the season already 60% gone I feel like the next 4 are really going to have to get on with it


----------



## Mprinsje

Boo Ramsay, boo.


----------



## pink freud

wankerness said:


> I'm sorta glad they had that scene in there, though. It would have been much stupider and wouldn't have jived with any of the characters' behaviors if he HADN'T done anything bad to her. And yes, they greatly softened it from the book, though who knows, maybe they'll pull a Theon Season 3 and every episode will feature an increasingly awful rape/torture interlude. That would be GREAT!



There's really no indication of that. Besides Reek/Theon being in the room that scene was probably on par for any political marriage in medieval times, especially on involving a virgin. Ramsay is a sadist but he isn't an idiot. If he was to do any of that to Sansa it would be after she gave him a son. Meanwhile she will suffer cruelty on par with what every other woman in that universe suffers, being used at the whims of an abusive husband in a patriarchal society.


----------



## wankerness

pink freud said:


> There's really no indication of that. Besides Reek/Theon being in the room that scene was probably on par for any political marriage in medieval times, especially on involving a virgin. Ramsay is a sadist but he isn't an idiot. If he was to do any of that to Sansa it would be after she gave him a son. Meanwhile she will suffer cruelty on par with what every other woman in that universe suffers, being used at the whims of an abusive husband in a patriarchal society.



I take it you aren't familiar with the Jeyne plotline from the book? There's plenty of horrific sexual torture that wouldn't interfere with childbirth!


----------



## pink freud

wankerness said:


> I take it you aren't familiar with the Jeyne plotline from the book? There's plenty of horrific sexual torture that wouldn't interfere with childbirth!



I've read the books. The books and the show are too divergent at this point to assume any direct relation between plotlines between the two mediums.


----------



## wankerness

Did anyone else get the impression that Bronn had been poisoned Mountain-style? They did a close-up on him getting sliced in that fight scene. If he gets killed off in this stupid plotline, George is going to get upset!!!


----------



## Deadnightshade

wankerness said:


> Did anyone else get the impression that Bronn had been poisoned Mountain-style? They did a close-up on him getting sliced in that fight scene. If he gets killed off in this stupid plotline, George is going to get upset!!!



I doubt he got poisoned. He might not survive this plotline though. At this point he is highly expendable, judging from his role in the books. They dragged him into this shiet cause he is more entertaining than Ilyn Payne. Maybe they'll tear-jerk it by making him sacrifice himself for Myrcella or something like that, to show that he wasn't that much of a heartless merc, etc.


----------



## wankerness




----------



## Underworld

Episode sucked. The dornish arc is pathetic, and what they've done with Sansa is so far from the books I just can't take it anymore! At least if they did something interesting with that, like Sansa pushing a knife in Ramsay's throat or something.


----------



## SeditiousDissent

wankerness said:


> Did anyone else get the impression that Bronn had been poisoned Mountain-style? They did a close-up on him getting sliced in that fight scene. If he gets killed off in this stupid plotline, George is going to get upset!!!



This entire episode was all sorts of weak sauce...

I noticed that, too. Since the Bronn arc is essentially over, I feel like he will be all black-veined and screaming by the next episode.


----------



## wankerness

Well, at least the poison thing seemed to be simply an excuse for a retarded scene in which the most muscle-toneless indie-chick-wannabe of the sand snakes exerted her dominance and showed off how HOT her boobs are. Idiotic. Maybe it was only a temporary antidote, though!

I sorta like the catch 22 they have set up with Stannis/Sansa. Everyone wants him to come in and destroy Ramsay & Co, but now we've learned for that to happen he has to set his adorable daughter on fire and sell his soul, otherwise he's screwed in the battle. I guess the only good outcome for all parties would be if Brienne went in there and snagged her right now and stabbed Ramsay in the face and then someone tells Stannis before he cooks Shireen or kills Melisandre (who's still about my favorite in the cast) or whatever he'd have to do. 

Hopefully something good happens with Tyrion and Danaerys, she's been approaching her previous season 2 heights of "I can't stand watching her walk around with a stick ten feet up her ass, let's get this scene over with!" these last couple episodes, especially tonight with the bedroom scene.

I'm not pleased with the Sam/Gilly situation, I wish they'd fled on a boat by now. Seems like they're up .... creek right now. Their sex scene was somewhat adorable though. I can't remember what happened with them in the fourth book,


Spoiler



just that they took a boat somewhere else and she banged him there - did he go to Maester school or something??



I'm very pleased by the way the King's Landing stuff progressed in this episode, though I still don't get why the army can't just kill the stupid religious wackos. No one would care that much! I had to laugh when Natalie Dormer's "filthy in a dungeon" look still was insanely gorgeous, it was like they still did her makeup in the same way and just made the rest of her dirty. Maybe that's just how she looks without makeup. (yeah right)


----------



## crg123

wankerness said:


> Well, at least the poison thing seemed to be simply an excuse for a retarded scene in which the most muscle-toneless indie-chick-wannabe of the sand snakes exerted her dominance and showed off how HOT her boobs are. Idiotic. Maybe it was only a temporary antidote, though!




To play devil's advocate with this I think the idea was that the Dornish are far from prudish especially compared to what someone from King's Landing would be use to. I think her doing that was to make his "blood flow" making the poison work quicker. She was exploiting what she knew would happen since he wouldn't be use to this. I think is why she was asking him how he felt when it happened. It was her way of pulling the trigger. Also why her sisters were rolling their eyes. They knew she was ....ing with him.

Its not the best excuse for it and I agree about the muscle toneless part, but I think that was the intention. Shrug*


----------



## wankerness

crg123 said:


> To play devil's advocate with this I think the idea was that the Dorish are far from prudish especially compared to what someone from King's Landing would be use to. I think her doing that was to make his "blood flow" making the poison work quicker. She was exploiting what she knew would happen since he wouldn't be use to this. I think is why she was asking him how he felt when it happened. It was her way of pulling the trigger. Also why her sisters were rolling their eyes. They knew she was ....ing with him.
> 
> Its not the best excuse for it and I agree about the muscle toneless part, but I think that was the intention. Shrug*



That was the reason for her getting her tit out, but that doesn't explain the reason for the ENTIRE SCENE. I thought it was just completely awful and yet another example of the showrunners trying to ram those characters down our throat. "Look at how badass this chick is, she gives you poison and then gives you a boner to make it act faster!" If Bronn had then DIED at least the scene wouldn't have been pointless, as is it didn't advance anything in any way. They could have completely removed the scene and we'd be in the same spot we were in before it happened, since apparently most people didn't think Bronn had gotten poisoned last week, and nothing happened here other than her going "haha you're poisoned, and now you're cured, PSYCH!!!!"


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

It was no dumber than the scene with Oberyn stabbing the dude's hand just because he could. Just happened to have .... in it. I thought it was the first good scene with the Sand Snakes, and Nymeria's eye-roll in the background gave it a sense of self-awareness that the characters were lacking before.

Anyway, probably my favorite episode of the season by far. Lots of character development and great dialogue that never felt expository or overly foreshadowy. Hope Sansa takes that lockpick/knife/whatever she picked up and stabs the .... out of Ramsay.


----------



## vividox

Yeah, I thought it was the first good scene with the Sand Snakes as well. In the books, that one Sand Snake is about about taking her clothes off and using her sexuality. 

Easily the best episode of the season for me.


----------



## djyngwie

It was certainly the best episode in a while. The Dorne subplot is still the weakest link, though. Also, not a whole lot of development in Sansa's situation.


----------



## Deadnightshade

They keep making me wonder how the hell they are going to tie some important storylines that are supposed to end a specific way in the books.


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

vividox said:


> Yeah, I thought it was the first good scene with the Sand Snakes as well. In the books, that one Sand Snake is about about taking her clothes off and using her sexuality.
> 
> Easily the best episode of the season for me.



That was actually Arianne Martell, the only non-sand-snake, who didn't make it into the show


----------



## seasloth21

The sand snake I really can't stand is that michelle rodriguez looking clown who always talks in stereotypical idioms. That fights scenes are bad, but this week was actually tolerable.


----------



## wankerness

One thing that stuck out to me was when Melisandre was talking about the power of the blood, said "see, it killed Joffrey and Robb Stark" and just totally didn't mention Balon Greyjoy. They must have originally planned on including the iron islands stuff and then realized sometime after season 3 that it just wasn't going to happen, so when they referred back to that scene they just didn't mention the fact she named 3 people instead of 2  I wonder if they're ever going to come back to it or if that's just it. Kind of a sad end to the iron islanders, if so - some of them show up to get Theon and are scared away by dogs, the end.


----------



## MFB

The Iron Islands stuff is a killjoy in the book so I'm fine with them leaving it out of the show. It'd be kind of cool to see the Kings Moot? Yeah. But, I don't remember there being any immediate sort of effect from it so who cares.


----------



## bigswifty

Couple thoughts..

Sandsnakes plotline is the weakest for sure, but the scene with Tyenne(?) and Bronn was pretty good I thought. I think we should give it more time before we judge these characters. But that fight in the previous episode was god awful.

Kind of sad to have no Iron Islanders.. I would have loved to see the Damphair and Victarion. But after the season 4 handling of Theon's rescue.. I don't even 

Does anyone else think that maybe Littlefinger is playing behind the scenes in King's Landing with respect to Cercei, Queen of Thorns, Loras and Lancel? I mean, he usually is.. But Loras did sleep with the dude in Littlefinger's brothel, and that was the key evidence against him. I can't remember why Lancel decided to join the sept but I can't help but think (at least in the films world) that Littlefinger might have had something to do with it. He told the Queen of Thorns that his gift was a young man.. He seems to show up just as everyone is slipping into the dungeons 

Also, random thought.. Bronn's betrothed is named Lollys.
Bronn is a lawless sellsword.. betrothed to Lollys.


----------



## AliceLG

I liked the episode. The Dorne arc is still weak, and pretty much all of it contradicts everything I expected of the place and the people given the overwhelmingly awesome first impression given by Oberyn in the last season. Them boobies though, nice.

Sansa's plot seems to have gone back to the boring sluggish crap of old, with only little sparks of "Dark Sansa" in there. I liked the bastard banter with Ramsay. That was a nice touch. Not so much what happened immediately after.

Every scene that has Tyrion in it is solid gold. And I'm curious about how his life in Meereen will develop.

The King's Landing plotline finally got back to form I think. I really liked the scene in the Sept with Lady Olenna and the High Sparrow. One of the best in the show I think.

All in all a good episode.

And also


Spoiler



He was the blood of the dragon, but now his fire has gone out. And now his watch is ended.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Jonathan Price(The High Sparrow) is a great actor and all his scenes have been really good. He has been one of my favourites this season. Its good to have Lady Olenna back too.

Dorne/Sand Snakes is a complete mess this season. They shouldn't have even bothered. 

Recycling plots is really dragging down the Winterfell arc. We already had the exact same male abuser + old woman death scene in S1E10. Back tracking on Sansa'a character arc throws away the Vale character development last year.

I really wish they had extended the season and fit in Young Griff and the Greyjoy Uncle's. They would have really helped this season.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

For me this season has totally gone downhill and become quite stupid.
This makes my wait for Black Sails' 3rd season even more unbearable.

The Dorn plotline seems awful even for one like me that didn't read the books, King Landing's soldiers not killing the sparrows doesn't seem credible, Stannis has been reduced to a silly puppet, Daenerys has become a b who likes the d, in spite of her love for Kahl Drogo.
The only reason to see this is obviously Tyrion, and Natalie Dormer, who's not hot hot hot but makes my blood boil a bit.


----------



## vividox

PlumbTheDerps said:


> That was actually Arianne Martell, the only non-sand-snake, who didn't make it into the show



Ah, yeah, that's right. The show does so much combining of characters it's hard to keep track sometimes.


----------



## seasloth21

Game of Thrones season 6 casting has begun - and here's the list! | Watchers on the Wall | A Game of Thrones Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary 

Looks like iron islands are coming after all!


----------



## SeditiousDissent

wankerness said:


> I can't remember what happened with them in the fourth book



To jog your memory (book 4 spoilers ahead):


Spoiler



Jon Snow ordered Sam to escort Maester Aemon, Gilly and Dalla's baby to the Citadel in order for: a) Maester Aemon to die away from Castle Black, b) Sam to begin his Maester's training, and c) the baby to escape from Melisandre. If you recall, she (Melisandre) wanted to burn Dalla's baby because it was fathered by Mance Rayder and she needed the blood of a king. So, Jon pulled the old switcheroo and gave Gilly's baby to Dalla. Yes, Sam and Gilly had sex on the ship, not at Castle Black. Maester Aemon died on the ship, not at Castle Black. When last we saw Sam, he had just met Pate (whom I suspect is really Jaqen H'ghar) in the tower at the Citadel.


----------



## mongey

dorne story line sucks. I havent read the books that far (only finished the 2nd) . the poison thing really sucked 

rest of the episode was good though. I do feel this season is a little anti climatic so far. with only 3 episode to go it better start giving the up goods


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

holy .........


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, I guess that's where their budget for hiring real actresses to play the Sand Snakes went. I liked seeing one of the few good people from Pitch Perfect 2 show up, too bad she didn't make it to the end of the episode! I'm glad this episode has silenced most of the naysayers, I was already liking this season much more than last and this really sealed the deal. It would have to do some spectacularly bad stuff in the last two episodes to undo the goodwill this episode created.

Seeing that dick the Lord of Bones show up again only to get beaten to death with his own stick was the best part of the episode, though.


----------



## Deadnightshade

Near the end of the episode I spotted a wight wielding pitifully an axe, could be a sand snake in disguise, need a gif asap. 

In all seriousness, that episode was pretty good, especially the ending. I really loved how they confirmed the theory that Valyrian steel also kills white walkers. That last slash was a bit anime-ish, but still good overall.


On a semi-related note, after binge watching a lot of "Vikings" episodes, I was wondering why the hell Jon felt so beat up to the point of spitting blood, as the threshold of human pain and healing properties is presented so differently between the two shows


----------



## djyngwie

Wow, what an episode!

It's only now that I realize that Karsi, the badass female wildling leader, was played by a Danish actress - Birgitte Hjort Sørensen  (A little national pride is ok, right?  )

(And appearantly, a lot of people root for Mads Mikkelsen being cast as Euron Greyjoy next season. I wonder if this ends up with the Kingslayer inviting all his friends to be on the show  )


----------



## Mike

And no one has mentioned mastodon yet? Very action packed episode. Probably the best of the season.


----------



## sakeido

I was definitely not expecting an epic battle in episode 8. I thought they were angling for one in episode 9.


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

djyngwie said:


> Wow, what an episode!
> 
> It's only now that I realize that Karsi, the badass female wildling leader, was played by a Danish actress - Birgitte Hjort Sørensen  (A little national pride is ok, right?  )
> 
> (And appearantly, a lot of people root for Mads Mikkelsen being cast as Euron Greyjoy next season. I wonder if this ends up with the Kingslayer inviting all his friends to be on the show  )



Carice Van Houten too!


----------



## wankerness

PlumbTheDerps said:


> Carice Van Houten too!



What about her? She's not from Denmark if that's what you were saying, she's Dutch.

I'll have to check out more stuff with Birgitte, she was great here and in Pitch Perfect 2.


----------



## Entropy Prevails

wankerness said:


> What about her? She's not from Denmark if that's what you were saying, she's Dutch.
> 
> I'll have to check out more stuff with Birgitte, she was great here and in Pitch Perfect 2.



That´s my only gripe with this episode: they let go of such a fine opportunity for a charismatic wildling character. She would have been so great!


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

wankerness said:


> What about her? She's not from Denmark if that's what you were saying, she's Dutch.
> 
> I'll have to check out more stuff with Birgitte, she was great here and in Pitch Perfect 2.



Oops, thought she was for some reason. I know they're different countries, I promise


----------



## wankerness

Entropy Prevails said:


> That´s my only gripe with this episode: they let go of such a fine opportunity for a charismatic wildling character. She would have been so great!



I read a review of the episode where they said they were also disappointed but thought that at the same time it was a pretty brilliant way to make you emotionally invested in what happens to this huge horde of wildlings that otherwise would have been a pretty awesome spectacle but lack any real stakes or scariness. Their only options to do that were either killing off one of the three characters we were familiar with (Edd/Jon/Torvund) or doing such rapid and excellent character development with a new character that you are upset when they die.


----------



## heregoesnothing

What does the raw oysters taste like?


----------



## Skyblue

I'm praying that after being an oyster selling girl, Aria would move up in the business world and become a cock merchant. 

Also- 

Thenn Dude: "My ancestors would spit on me if I joined forces with a crow!" 
Awesome wildling girl: "So would mine, but f*ck 'em, they're dead!"

What a great episode.


----------



## vividox

Entropy Prevails said:


> That´s my only gripe with this episode: they let go of such a fine opportunity for a charismatic wildling character. She would have been so great!





wankerness said:


> I read a review of the episode where they said they were also disappointed but thought that at the same time it was a pretty brilliant way to make you emotionally invested in what happens to this huge horde of wildlings that otherwise would have been a pretty awesome spectacle but lack any real stakes or scariness. Their only options to do that were either killing off one of the three characters we were familiar with (Edd/Jon/Torvund) or doing such rapid and excellent character development with a new character that you are upset when they die.



That was my take on it. This episode, on top of being all it was, was also a mini storyline of a really cool Wildling chick that you get endeared to rather quickly.

She's this badass with some really cool lines who gets .... done, she's helping getting people out of dodge, she puts the kids on the boat and says goodbye, kicks some ass for awhile, and then when she comes face to face with all the children wights... she just freezes. That's her breaking point. All her badassery just kind of goes out the window when she sees them and realizes their fate and realizes these things aren't just coming for the men or the warriors, they are going to sweep over everyone and send your kids against you as well. At that moment, the fight goes out of her and game over.

It's fleeting, it's futile, but it's a really interesting microcosm to throw in the middle of a huge fight sequence that pinpoints the ramifications of just what it is we're seeing. I thought it was brilliant.


----------



## SeditiousDissent

Well, that episode was certainly something...


----------



## source field

I know Shireen will meet her death sooner or later but that scene was too much for me. I always have a soft spot for kids. A scream of an innocent little girl being burned alive by her beloved father..


----------



## CrushingAnvil

This last episode was way too stressful. Glad Drogon showed up


----------



## djyngwie

That was hard to watch! :-(


----------



## Sumsar

Just finished watching the latest episode. These two last ones have been great, can't wait for the next one!

Also here is hoping that the Melisandre bitch will burn at some point!


----------



## Deadnightshade

Kind of dissapointed with how they handle Arya's storyline. 

Already calling it:


Spoiler



Jaqen H'ghar will scold her for killing that guy in the pleasurehouse (I don't remember his name to be honest) and take away her sight. Then she will get it back along with her first face in order to kill him with the coin switcheroo method.


----------



## wankerness

Sumsar said:


> Just finished watching the latest episode. These two last ones have been great, can't wait for the next one!
> 
> Also here is hoping that the Melisandre bitch will burn at some point!



No way, she's awesome. I hope she is the new ruler of Westeros, along with the foreign Melisandre they showed on that earlier episode (played by that crazy looking chick from The Wolverine). 

The Dorne stuff was terrible as usual, it seemed like this episode totally negated the point of that entire plotline if that conversation between whatshername longneck lady and Jaime was to be believed.

I didn't like the ending, it was way too obvious what was going to happen from almost the start of that attack (you knew they weren't going to kill all those characters off by the time they got surrounded, so very little tension) and the ambition certainly outstepped the budget, unlike last week's CGI which looked great. I guess it looked better than a SYFY pictures original at least.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

That was the worst episode this season. Awful dialogue and full of plot holes. Not to mention completely butchering Stannis's character/book storyline for shock value. Such a shame after how good Hardhome was. 

I think I'll stop watching after this season and hope the book comes out soon because they are twisting new plots up to much now.


----------



## pink freud

CrushingAnvil said:


> This last episode was way too stressful. Glad Drogon showed up



Amazing what sequencing can do. Imagine had the scenes been switched: Dany performs her Neverending Story reenactment and then we cut to Cooking with Stannis.


----------



## michblanch

The Sandsnakes died pretty quick last night after a buildup all season. 
A complete waste of time and was nothing but filler. 
The only good thing out of that horrid storyline was the .... on the Sandsnake with shorthair during the jail cell scene. 

Wonder who gets killed off during the finale? 
I have an idea but won't say. 

HBO has a great Sunday lineup. GOT , Silicon Valley, Veep Last Week.


----------



## sakeido

Lorcan Ward said:


> That was the worst episode this season. Awful dialogue and full of plot holes. Not to mention completely butchering Stannis's character/book storyline for shock value. Such a shame after how good Hardhome was.
> 
> I think I'll stop watching after this season and hope the book comes out soon because they are twisting new plots up to much now.



GRRM told the writers of the show she was getting burned in the books too, sooooo ....


----------



## Lorcan Ward

sakeido said:


> GRRM told the writers of the show she was getting burned in the books too, sooooo ....



It won't happen in this way. It doesn't make any sense in book or show logic. This was purely a biased dislike towards a character that they used for nothing more than episode 9 shock value. 

There is a good article here that explains it:
GoT G&M: for feasts and frolics - No, this won&rsquo;t &ldquo;happen in the books&rdquo;


----------



## sakeido

Lorcan Ward said:


> It won't happen in this way. It doesn't make any sense in book or show logic. This was purely a biased dislike towards a character that they used for nothing more than episode 9 shock value.
> 
> There is a good article here that explains it:
> GoT G&M: for feasts and frolics - No, this won&rsquo;t.&ldquo;happen in the books&rdquo;



You and insane tumblr people know better than all the writers then, eh? Sure.


----------



## Mprinsje

I'm so glad i haven't read the books, that's one thing i can't be mad about at least.

Damn Stan, y u gotta do this man


----------



## vividox

Deadnightshade said:


> Kind of dissapointed with how they handle Arya's storyline.
> 
> Already calling it:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Jaqen H'ghar will scold her for killing that guy in the pleasurehouse (I don't remember his name to be honest) and take away her sight. Then she will get it back along with her first face in order to kill him with the coin switcheroo method.





Spoiler



This is the second time today I've read someone referring to her being blinded as a punishment. This annoys me to no end.

Arya getting blinded is NOT a punishment. It is a REWARD.

Before Arya killed Daeron, the Kindly Man was not considering her to be a Faceless Man. She was just another servant in the House of Black and White, like the waif. When she killed Daeron and told the Kindly Man that it wasn't she who did it, but Arya Stark, she showed a disassociation from her identity that she had up to that point not shown. This disassociation of her identity was a vital pre-requisite to becoming a Faceless Man. Once she demonstrated this ability, her real training began. And the first part of her real training was being blinded to hone her other senses.

So when Arya kills Meryn Trant and tell Jaqen H'ghar it wasn't she who killed him, but Arya Stark, Jaqen will reward her with the first part of her real training - which involves her going blind.


----------



## mongey

Thought it was pretty good. Dorne was terrible as usual. Drogon was a little predictable but cool.


----------



## vividox

Lorcan Ward said:


> That was the worst episode this season. Awful dialogue and full of plot holes. Not to mention completely butchering Stannis's character/book storyline for shock value. Such a shame after how good Hardhome was.
> 
> I think I'll stop watching after this season and hope the book comes out soon because they are twisting new plots up to much now.


Except for the fact that GRRM told D&D to have Stannis kill Shireen...

EDIT: I'm late to the show.


----------



## vividox

Lorcan Ward said:


> It won't happen in this way. It doesn't make any sense in book or show logic. This was purely a biased dislike towards a character that they used for nothing more than episode 9 shock value.
> 
> There is a good article here that explains it:
> GoT G&M: for feasts and frolics - No, this won&rsquo;t.&ldquo;happen in the books&rdquo;


How does it not make sense?

Stannis killed his brother with black magic to get what he wanted.
Stannis burned his wife's uncle at the stake to get what he wanted.
Stannis leeched his bastard nephew to get what he wanted.

Stannis is relentless in his what he is willing to sacrifice to put himself on the Iron Throne - he has been from day 1. Why is it just now crossing the line when he's already shown time and time again that killing/using his own family members is a means than justifies the ends?

This is Stannis' modus operandi to a 'T'. Fits perfectly in both book and series plots.

The only reason it rubs people so wrongly is because unlike Renly (who we barely knew), Alester Florent (who was merely mentioned in an appendix) and Gendry / Edric Storm (who escaped with the help of Davos before any lasting damage could be done) is that we were endeared to Shireen for four seasons/books.

Stannis sacrificing Shireen is brutal, but entirely unexpected. I would argue that this has been telegraphed since the first time Melissandre spoke of the power of Kings' blood.


----------



## wankerness

Lorcan Ward said:


> It won't happen in this way. It doesn't make any sense in book or show logic. This was purely a biased dislike towards a character that they used for nothing more than episode 9 shock value.
> 
> There is a good article here that explains it:
> GoT G&M: for feasts and frolics - No, this won&rsquo;t.&ldquo;happen in the books&rdquo;



Gimme a break, there's foreshadowing on him toasting her all the way back in season 2 and it really stepped up as the seasons progressed. Melisandre was saying stuff about how he'd betray his family years ago. He's always been a nut that burned innocent people (if you'll recall, he was going to toast Gendry until Davos rescued him) to appease his God or spawned shadow babies to kill his brother or chopped his buddy's fingers off for stealing, everyone just forgot about all that since he seemed more appealing than the alternative kings presented and made funny grammar comments. I had no problem with the scene whatsoever. It was really disturbing, mission accomplished! It did exactly what it was supposed to and was completely consistent with the setup for the character. He most definitely didn't look happy about it when he did it, either. He believes he saved all his men, who were starving and freezing over the last few episodes and then had all their stuff destroyed by Ramsay at the beginning of the episode. He's always been about brutal pragmatism to go along with his worship of "the lord of light," I reallllly don't get the crying from fans saying "his character is ruined!!!" I think it's just people who were offended by how nasty the scene was (even though it was all off-screen) and are retroactively attempting to justify it.


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> You and insane tumblr people know better than all the writers then, eh? Sure.



There wasn't this much crying over the Red Wedding even though a pregnant lady got stabbed in the belly repeatedly in loving detail. The outrage-o-sphere has really stepped it up in the last couple years. I guess it's helped by now they have the flimsy excuse of "well it's more offensive now because it wasn't in books already."

In summary,


----------



## mongey

vividox said:


> How does it not make sense?
> 
> Stannis killed his brother with black magic to get what he wanted.
> Stannis burned his wife's uncle at the stake to get what he wanted.
> Stannis leeched his bastard nephew to get what he wanted.
> 
> Stannis is relentless in his what he is willing to sacrifice to put himself on the Iron Throne - he has been from day 1. Why is it just now crossing the line when he's already shown time and time again that killing/using his own family members is a means than justifies the ends?
> 
> .



I agree with this. plus add in the fact that his army was trapped and couldn't go forwards or backwards, and could only starve or freeze to death and it pushed him over the edge


----------



## sakeido

I think he said he would burn a girl to save millions if he had to. He meant it, but hoped it wouldn't be his own daughter. And I don't know if they ever mentioned the story of the first Azor Allai in the show, but he murdered his own wife to get Lightbringer. So there is a precedent for Rhollor to ask for awful things of his chosen ones


----------



## djyngwie

mongey said:


> Dorne was terrible as usual.


Overall it was. But I do like Doran Martell quite a bit.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

The reason I think that Stannis killing his daughter is so incredible is because it sets up two contrasting viewpoints of Stannis that both can be simultaneously felt.

On one hand, Stannis seems to have gone over the edge, mentally and emotionally. When I was watching that burning scene I couldn't help but look at how horribly drained they made Stannis look. He's so haggard and at least on some level hates himself. It makes you hate Stannis and want to see him suffer.

However, it doesn't make you want to truly see him fail. Because if he fails, if he falls in battle with Roose or just abandons his quest for the throne, then everything, including the sacrificing of his daughter, will have been for nothing. I would personally rather see him march all the way to King's Landing and fulfill his journey than watch him fail at this point.

I thought this past episode was great with Stannis and I really like him as a character because his flaws are so apparent. I don't know why everyone is flipping out over him sacrificing his daughter, it's crazy but it so easily fits his character.

Also Team Dany.


----------



## pink freud

UnattendedGolfcart said:


> The reason I think that Stannis killing his daughter is so incredible is because it sets up two contrasting viewpoints of Stannis that both can be simultaneously felt.
> 
> On one hand, Stannis seems to have gone over the edge, mentally and emotionally. When I was watching that burning scene I couldn't help but look at how horribly drained they made Stannis look. He's so haggard and at least on some level hates himself. It makes you hate Stannis and want to see him suffer.
> 
> However, it doesn't make you want to truly see him fail. Because if he fails, if he falls in battle with Roose or just abandons his quest for the throne, then everything, including the sacrificing of his daughter, will have been for nothing. I would personally rather see him march all the way to King's Landing and fulfill his journey than watch him fail at this point.
> 
> I thought this past episode was great with Stannis and I really like him as a character because his flaws are so apparent. I don't know why everyone is flipping out over him sacrificing his daughter, it's crazy but it so easily fits his character.
> 
> Also Team Dany.



They really need to reinforce him being on the throne = a king who cares about the White Walkers more in the show. Thus far the focus has been more on him "deserving" the throne through heredity and what-not, which gives his actions a selfish tinge, especially when mixing the religious chosen-one stuff in. His actions have been despicable but would be more understandable if they gave more depth to his motives. Surely if Sam can give a speech about why Jon letting Wildlings through the gate is a good idea somebody can give a speech on why Stannis offering up people as sacrifice is a good idea (beyond some deity wanting it).


----------



## AliceLG

All I could think about after watching the episode was what will Ser Davos do when he comes back? One could argue that he knew what was going to happen given his last scene in the episode but he's the one person that truly loved that poor child. Selyse immediately regretting her decision was also a little bit redeeming.


----------



## Fraz666

vividox said:


> How does it not make sense?
> 
> Stannis killed his brother with black magic to get what he wanted.
> Stannis burned his wife's uncle at the stake to get what he wanted.
> Stannis leeched his bastard nephew to get what he wanted.
> 
> Stannis is relentless in his what he is willing to sacrifice to put himself on the Iron Throne - he has been from day 1. Why is it just now crossing the line when he's already shown time and time again that killing/using his own family members is a means than justifies the ends?


Agree!
But I felt like "it's episode 9 something shocking must happen, let's look at Stannis"

P.S.: I saw this episode right after playing Dragon Age Inquisition and the final scene was awesome


----------



## Sumsar

AliceLG said:


> All I could think about after watching the episode was what will Ser Davos do when he comes back? One could argue that he knew what was going to happen given his last scene in the episode but he's the one person that truly loved that poor child. Selyse immediately regretting her decision was also a little bit redeeming.



Hopefully Davos will do something drastic - him rebelling (or whatever it comes to) againts Stannis is what 3 seasons overdue?


----------



## Deadnightshade

vividox said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> When she killed Daeron and told the Kindly Man that it wasn't she who did it, but Arya Stark, she showed a disassociation from her identity that she had up to that point not shown. This disassociation of her identity was a vital pre-requisite to becoming a Faceless Man. Once she demonstrated this ability, her real training began. And the first part of her real training was being blinded to hone her other senses.
> 
> So when Arya kills Meryn Trant and tell Jaqen H'ghar it wasn't she who killed him, but Arya Stark, Jaqen will reward her with the first part of her real training - which involves her going blind.





Spoiler



Maybe I just didn't understand it correctly from the books on my first read when she killed the merchant, so in that case you're right.

But I have to say the disassociation makes no sense if Jaren accepts it after she's killed Trant. She had a grudge with that guy as Arya, what makes Jaren think that she understood anything at all from everything they have taught her if the first life she took wasn't the target she was assigned?


----------



## vividox

Deadnightshade said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I just didn't understand it correctly from the books on my first read when she killed the merchant, so in that case you're right.
> 
> But I have to say the disassociation makes no sense if Jaren accepts it after she's killed Trant. She had a grudge with that guy as Arya, what makes Jaren think that she understood anything at all from everything they have taught her if the first life she took wasn't the target she was assigned?





Spoiler



Arya has been asked who she is since she arrived at the temple. When she answers "Arya Stark", she is giving the wrong answer because a Faceless Man is no one who simply wears identities to sneak around and give the gift.

By claiming she didn't make the kill but rather Arya Stark did, she's showing she's embraced the fact that she is no longer Arya Stark, while simultaneously using the identity of Arya Stark to give the gift of death. Which is exactly what the Faceless Men do. 

Her mission doesn't really matter, it's just a means to an end. Rejecting the idea that she is Arya Stark and using the 'alternate identity' of Arya Stark to give the gift is all that really matters. That's the 'end'.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

I'm a horrible person, I didn't found that scene disturbing and it was announced for a good while, so it didn't shocked me at all.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, after that scene with him telling her how he fought to keep her alive as a baby it was obvious it was coming with the way this show works.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

What bugged me more is that they were able to make an episode with Tyrion barely speaking


----------



## pink freud

OmegaSlayer said:


> What bugged me more is that they were able to make an episode with Tyrion barely speaking



He said a lot, just not in words. His facial expressions were on point this episode (as ever, really).


----------



## groverj3

<nerd>

I absolutely was expecting him to burn Shireen.

That's probably because I've read every fan theory on where the story is going.

</nerd>


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

pink freud said:


> He said a lot, just not in words. His facial expressions were on point this episode (as ever, really).



He also killed a guy to protect Missandei. I yelled and fist pumped when that happened.


----------



## groverj3

I was thinking about this today. Isn't it kind of interesting that the story obviously describes The Lord of Light/Red God, and the Old Gods as having real power and nothing like that is ever shown about the majority religion in Westeros (The Seven)? It even seems like the Many Faced God (Death) is real in this story due to the abilities of the faceless men. Not sure about the Drowned God though, not much evidence in the story that I know of about any real power it has.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the majority religion in Westeros is false, but all these other fringe beliefs have some evidence behind them?


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

I think that's deliberate. All the "old world" stuff, like R'hllor, MFG, and the north's Old Gods, is derived from millennia of connections between men (or the children of the forest) and nature, whereas the faith of the seven is an artificial religious-political construct designed to bolster the religious legitimacy of the monarchy.


----------



## vividox

groverj3 said:


> I was thinking about this today. Isn't it kind of interesting that the story obviously describes The Lord of Light/Red God, and the Old Gods as having real power and nothing like that is ever shown about the majority religion in Westeros (The Seven)? It even seems like the Many Faced God (Death) is real in this story due to the abilities of the faceless men. Not sure about the Drowned God though, not much evidence in the story that I know of about any real power it has.
> 
> Wouldn't it be interesting if the majority religion in Westeros is false, but all these other fringe beliefs have some evidence behind them?


I definitely think the Faith of the Seven is a false religion, as is the religion of the Drowned God.

I'm not completely sold on the authenticity of the other religions either, though. I think all you can say for certain is that some forms of magic are real and some people are really good at convincing you that their god exists. R'hllor has the most credibility by far, but even that could be blood magic and illusions.


----------



## groverj3

PlumbTheDerps said:


> I think that's deliberate. All the "old world" stuff, like R'hllor, MFG, and the north's Old Gods, is derived from millennia of connections between men (or the children of the forest) and nature, whereas the faith of the seven is an artificial religious-political construct designed to bolster the religious legitimacy of the monarchy.



Agree with your point about it being a political construct. How fitting that it is now spiraling out of the monarchy's control.



vividox said:


> I definitely think the Faith of the Seven is a false religion, as is the religion of the Drowned God.
> 
> I'm not completely sold on the authenticity of the other religions either, though. I think all you can say for certain is that some forms of magic are real and some people are really good at convincing you that their god exists. R'hllor has the most credibility by far, but even that could be blood magic and illusions.



I think this is likely.

Or perhaps R'hllor is based on something "real" and so is The Great Other that it is supposedly fighting. However, perhaps whatever things have inspired the religion are not "gods" in the sense of being a conscious being. Just like... opposing forces? People just worship them as gods (all of them, but R'hllor is the closest to the truth, hence the apparent evidence for it) because people are really great at anthropomorphizing things in nature.

Which, actually, is pretty much the same as what you said .


----------



## AxeHappy

It is interesting that all the magic stuff had stopped working until the Dragons were born. Some connections between magic and the dragons.


----------



## Deadnightshade

wankerness said:


> Yeah, after that scene with him telling her how he fought to keep her alive as a baby it was obvious it was coming with the way this show works.



Since this ventures towards stuff not yet released in the books (apart from the teaser extract), I thought the possibility of refusing to burn Shireen would be a hint that Stannis will lose the war. But when I saw that the scene between her and Davos started with almost half the screen being filled with a warming fire next to the little princess, I thought "well that's a future bacon I'm seeing". 

EDIT: It was actually between Shireen and her father, and it starts with her playing with the stagg Davos gifted her.


----------



## michblanch

Big night tonite. 

Hopefully we'll get a shocker like the Red Wedding.


----------



## wankerness

Beware of the internet today, lot of spoilers flying around since some jerk leaked pictures from post-production.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart




----------



## crg123

Spoiler



I'm guessing either

A. He wargs into Ghost hinted at in the books 
B. Melisandre revives him which is why they seemed to focus on his blood
C. Mixture of the two
- (from the wiki) Melisandre asks to see Azor Ahai in the flames, hoping for Stannis, but sees only Jon Snow surrounded by skulls, his face changing between that of a man and that of a wolf. When she sees Jon, she also sees enemies surrounding him, and warns him of daggers in the dark

George RR Martin hints to John's parents being an important thing. Only letting the HBO series directors gain the rights to use his stories in the show by asking "Who is John Snow's mother?" I find it hard to believe that never gets addressed.

Either that or "Valar morghulis" I guess haha.

Thoughts? 

edit: https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=1ce6b72f8d24071b8e69a18f3d9ca8ce&oe=55EF52E1

Someone also pointed out the shape of the blood looks like a howling wolf. Although that may be reaching.


----------



## bigswifty

"C*NT!"

Best way to break that silence.

Unreal episode. Just picking off the cast like it's nothing.

Since the episode is out.. I think it's fair to not have to use spoiler tags now. 

I don't think Stannis is dead. The way it did not show his death on screen just seems to me like there is some other purpose for him.
Really great handling of that arc though. 

Circe's walk of shame was handled brilliantly I thought. It had it all, and was seriously immersive.

And of course Jon.. To answer above, I think he will be reborn somehow, which will involve Melisandre.
But the way the scene was handled in the show was great.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

Stannis' plot line was really boring, even if it was handled well. The whole "let's build up the battle of Winterfell for 6 episodes and then skip the entirety of it" pissed me off. Good on Brienne for hopefully keeping her word.

Kind of confused about Sansa and Theon, what's exactly up with that. It's not hard to guess, but still.

GoT can make me despise Cersei for 5 seasons and then suddenly make me feel a bit bad for her.

A bit. Just a bit.

Still though she looks cute with the new hair 


And of course

#JonSnowLives


----------



## Xaios

Welp... that was depressing. 

I know that Myrcella was toast as soon as whatsherface planted that kiss on her.

Cersei's walk of shame was every bit as satisfying as I'd hoped.


----------



## illimmigrant

I've never watched a show that made me want to put my foot trough my TV, rip it off the wall and chuck it out a window the way GOT does. From Ned Stark's beheading in season 1 I knew I couldn't get attached to any characters, but I fall for it all the time. Lots of cliffhangers for next season too.


----------



## Govan Emmanuel

Is this true?

'Game of Thrones' Star on Finale Shocker: I'm Not "Coming Back" - The Hollywood Reporter


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

Govan Emmanuel said:


> Is this true?
> 
> 'Game of Thrones' Star on Finale Shocker: I'm Not "Coming Back" - The Hollywood Reporter



Seth Macfarlane also said Brian was permanently dead on Family Guy. It's probably a marketing ploy.

I think it's weird with this show that the writers can write certain plots pretty well (Stannis, Cersei) and certain plots so horribly (Sand Snakes) at the same time.


----------



## Mike

Govan Emmanuel said:


> Is this true?
> 
> 'Game of Thrones' Star on Finale Shocker: I'm Not "Coming Back" - The Hollywood Reporter





Spoiler



I call BS on that. I really think he has to come back. I'm almost positive his destiny is to take on the mantle of Azor Ahai. Through one way or another, he'll be revived by The Red God in a manner similar to Lord Beric. Melisandre's attention shifting to him as well as her return to Castle Black has to have a reason. Throw in the R+L and Dragon rider Theories. Plus he's on the game of thrones payroll through season 7


----------



## vividox

Govan Emmanuel said:


> Is this true?
> 
> 'Game of Thrones' Star on Finale Shocker: I'm Not "Coming Back" - The Hollywood Reporter


Lip service. He has to say that or the cat's out of the bag.


----------



## vividox

I had a lot of conflicting feelings for the finale. The Walk of Shame was brilliantly done. I loved the brutality of Miranda's death. I loved Arya killing Meryn Trant. But they really packed a lot into that final episode where I thought they could have spread it out over at least two episodes. The pacing this whole season just felt weird, and some of the divergences from the book are really starting to put a grimace on my face. Some of the changes are okay, others are completely unneeded and just detract from the plot. GRRM is clearly a much better writer than D&D are.

I wouldn't be too surprised if the series give us a completely different end game than the books at this point. It's getting hard to note the _similarities_. Which I think is okay, since the books aren't even finished yet.


----------



## Deadnightshade

vividox said:


> I loved Arya killing Meryn Trant.



It appears that in the show they went with Arya receiving blindness as a punishment. It was clear because Arya specifically wanted him to know who killed him and Jaren scolded her for retaining her identity. So in terms of show storyline, suck it


----------



## pink freud

vividox said:


> Lip service. He has to say that or the *cat's out of the bag*.



Most likely unintentional pun is punny.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

vividox said:


> The Walk of Shame was brilliantly done... I loved Arya killing Meryn Trant.



If each episode of Season 6 could just put these two scenes on loop for an hour, I would be quite happy. 



Spoiler



I feel that with Jon, he died because he was too honorable and righteous. We all know what happens to the honorable and the righteous. I'm wondering if when he comes back (yes, when) that he will lose that righteousness and see the world for what it truly is and maybe gain some sort of darker perspective. He's morally beyond and above the Night's Watch.


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

Prediction: Whitewalkers steamroll everything and everyone dies. I cant see any other ending happening at this point.


----------



## wankerness

I'm surprised anyone thinks Stannis is dead. This show has never avoided showing someone killed when it actually happened before, while this episode intentionally made it so there was not even a sound or anything that would imply she'd followed through. I can't think of a single even relatively minor character death that wasn't on-screen. Unless you count The Hound, but I am thinking there's a good chance of this same situation applying there and he'll show up again eventually.


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

wankerness said:


> I'm surprised anyone thinks Stannis is dead. This show has never avoided showing someone killed when it actually happened before



Ned.


----------



## narad

Oh @#$% that.


----------



## mongey

Good episode. The def crammed allot into it. Good to see at least something happen in dorne.

As soon as it finished my wife made the call on melisandre bringing snow back to life. Not sure if they will do it. And unfortunately need to wait a year to find out.


----------



## wankerness

PlumbTheDerps said:


> Ned.



They showed his decapitated head more than once and showed the entire swing of the sword and everyone's reaction to it, there was 0 ambiguity


----------



## source field

PlumbTheDerps said:


> Ned.



Big difference


----------



## inaudio

Govan Emmanuel said:


> Is this true?
> 
> 'Game of Thrones' Star on Finale Shocker: I'm Not "Coming Back" - The Hollywood Reporter



The only fitting thing to say in response to that is this:



Spoiler



You know nothing, Jon Snow.


----------



## Mike

Will Ferrell executed Ned Stark


----------



## groverj3

I'm on Team White Walker now.


----------



## Skyblue

The moment Jon's final scene began I was like "OLLY YOU LITTLE F*CKER DON'T YOU DARE", it was rather predictable but still great. 

Loved the episode all in all, I'm thinking that on top of all the current guesses about the next season (Jon being revived, stannis being alive, so on so forth) cerci will also try to destroy the sparrows, probably with the help of the (zombie-ish) mountain. 

"confe- AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH" *head explodes*


----------



## Winspear

Incredible last episode


----------



## vividox

Deadnightshade said:


> It appears that in the show they went with Arya receiving blindness as a punishment. It was clear because Arya specifically wanted him to know who killed him and Jaren scolded her for retaining her identity. So in terms of show storyline, suck it


They sure did. I can't tell you how annoyed I was by that.


----------



## Deadnightshade

vividox said:


> They sure did. I can't tell you how annoyed I was by that.



The one thing that pissed me off is that they threw in the garbage one of the most badass scenes in ASOIAF.


Spoiler



You know, involving kissing a skeleton face and attempting to eat the graveworm


----------



## vividox

Deadnightshade said:


> The one thing that pissed me off is that they threw in the garbage one of the most badass scenes in ASOIAF.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> You know, involving kissing a skeleton face and attempting to eat the graveworm


Yeah, as decent as Arya's storyline was in S5, it felt like the book version was thrown in a blender. Really out of order, several key personal moments excluded, it almost felt a bit disingenuous and struggled to make sense at times. Like, why did he show her the Hall of Faces way before she was ready to be a Faceless Man? The books did a much better job of making all the steps in progress meaningful and apparent.


----------



## Deadnightshade

vividox said:


> Yeah, as decent as Arya's storyline was in S5, it felt like the book version was thrown in a blender. Really out of order, several key personal moments excluded, it almost felt a bit disingenuous and struggled to make sense at times. Like, why did he show her the Hall of Faces way before she was ready to be a Faceless Man? The books did a much better job of making all the steps in progress meaningful and apparent.



I agree. The truth of how difficult it was for her isn't nearly shown in the show, but on the other hand it also wouldn't make for as good television.


The whole stealing a face business is downright retarded, if someone could sneak in the temple and grab all the faces he desired, the faceless men wouldn't be nearly in such a high demand. The ritual tied to acquiring a face is there for a reason. 


But alas, let's show that sister....er rape his sister next to their bastard son's carcass, it's too much to make Arya's pretty face bleed, let's waste money on CGI panoramas of the hall of the dead instead 

Also why not index faces in drawers or something? They could learn a thing or two from bureaucrats !


----------



## Addison90

I have a feeling that Jon will reappear in Season 7. Maybe he will take a Bran Stark-like respite from the show for the next season..


----------



## russmuller

I dunno man... that was a lot of bleeding out. If he comes back, he'll probably be white.


----------



## vividox

Here's my theory:

Melisandre revives Jon and proclaims him Azor Ahai reborn. Jon is all like, "I dunno about all that noise, but thanks for making me not dead and stuff." Then Jon has no choice but to run. He can't stay at the Wall, because the Night's Watch is trying to kill him, he can't go to Winterfell because it's held by the Boltons, and he can't join the Wildlings because the Night's Watch is going to be dealing with them shortly, probably with the help of the Boltons at Winterfell. So Jon runs north. He meets the Night's King who is incredibly intrigued. He somehow knows that Jon has died and returned, and he knows he's a good fighter. Night's King says, "Hey dude, you're pretty cool, wanna join us?" Jon is all like, "You guys are monsters from the north trying to kill everything, why would I want to join you?" And then the Night's King says, "Well, actually, we're not. I'm actually a Stark. I was the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and broke away because those guys are idiots. Andals and First Men are an incredibly volatile species that suffer an endless cycle of war after power play after coup. Think of the great people you've known who have died because of these people. We seek to stop the cycle of destruction once and for all." Jon gives us a long, Emmy-award winning look and says, "You know what, you've got a good point there. I'll tell you what, if I can ride my wolf into battle, I'm in." Night's King calls it a deal, and Jon becomes his right hand man. Then the White Walkers take out Westeros, and the Night's King calls his work done and returns to the north, leaving Jon to hold the Iron Throne. Fin.


----------



## Deadnightshade

vividox said:


> Here's my theory:
> 
> Melisandre revives Jon and proclaims him Azor Ahai reborn. Jon is all like, "I dunno about all that noise, but thanks for making me not dead and stuff." Then Jon has no choice but to run. He can't stay at the Wall, because the Night's Watch is trying to kill him, he can't go to Winterfell because it's held by the Boltons, and he can't join the Wildlings because the Night's Watch is going to be dealing with them shortly, probably with the help of the Boltons at Winterfell. So Jon runs north. He meets the Night's King who is incredibly intrigued. He somehow knows that Jon has died and returned, and he knows he's a good fighter. Night's King says, "Hey dude, you're pretty cool, wanna join us?" Jon is all like, "You guys are monsters from the north trying to kill everything, why would I want to join you?" And then the Night's King says, "Well, actually, we're not. I'm actually a Stark. I was the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and broke away because those guys are idiots. Andals and First Men are an incredibly volatile species that suffer an endless cycle of war after power play after coup. Think of the great people you've known who have died because of these people. We seek to stop the cycle of destruction once and for all." Jon gives us a long, Emmy-award winning look and says, "You know what, you've got a good point there. I'll tell you what, if I can ride my wolf into battle, I'm in." Night's King calls it a deal, and Jon becomes his right hand man. Then the White Walkers take out Westeros, and the Night's King calls his work done and returns to the north, leaving Jon to hold the Iron Throne. Fin.




Jon is smarter than that and has no teenage angst left in him to be pushed into such an overplayed absolutist decision. I'll falcon punch Martin's belly if he does that.


----------



## vividox

Deadnightshade said:


> Jon is smarter than that and has no teenage angst left in him to be pushed into such an overplayed absolutist decision. I'll falcon punch Martin's belly if he does that.


I don't think Martin would do that, but it's got D&D written all over it.


----------



## Entropy Prevails

I don´t understand why people are so keen to believe the Azor Ahai prophecy at all. I don´t think prophecies fit Martins writing. Correct me if I´m wrong, but apart from some magical elements it seems to be always grounded in reality. 

That said, I can get behind the idea of Jon getting resurrected. It´s established that it can happen and it would be awesome to get a main character back.


----------



## crg123

hahaha this is most excellent


----------



## crg123

So ehem:
'Game of Thrones' team on whether that character is really dead | EW.com



> When asked point-blank of Snow is firmly gone&#8212;as in, is actor Kit Harington released from his Thrones contract?&#8212;showrunner Dan Weiss told EW,* &#8220;Dead is dead.&#8221;*



For a possibly spoiler based on that wording please refer to the prologue of the first book my friends 
https://us-east.manta.joyent.com/co...5/06/23/5589aa5aca2dc24e4d270365_image1-2.JPG

The "Gared did not rise to the bait" paragraph. Seems like a quite a coincidental use of that expression huh. Especially what happens to the "dead" wildlings later on in that book.



Spoiler



I'm guessing that hints to what we already know. Dead may be "dead' but in that world its not necessarily permanent.


----------



## wankerness

Why do people take any of these at face value (i know you don't, but the fact these articles exist just makes me shake my head)? Of COURSE he's going to say that even if he gets resurrected in the first scene of season 7, what the heck else would he do? He's probably contractually obligated to not spoil the surprise. They might not even have told him yet. I just don't think you can read any of this stuff as evidence for where the plot's going. Do you really think he'd be like "oh, just kidding, I just didn't want to ruin the surprise" if enough people ask him? I don't think we'll get anything that would give away the surprise of his resurrection (if it happens) other than leaked news or maybe an inappropriate tweet from Lena Headey or something the week of the episode airing.  And yes, "dead is dead" means nothing given they've established whatshisname Firesword McEyepatch as getting blatantly resurrected from inarguably being dead.

I saw people post similar articles about Stannis where he had a farewell thing with Carice Van Houten and Liam Cunningham, saying he was gone for good - for all we know that just means those characters won't interact again (they're in different places right now anyway!). Or it might not even mean that.


----------



## jonajon91

Can someone tell me how the books line up with the show? I have watched all of the show completely and i'm reading the books at the moment. I'd quite like to watch up to the end of each book as I finish each one (i'm about 3/4 of the way through the first).


----------



## vividox

jonajon91 said:


> Can someone tell me how the books line up with the show? I have watched all of the show completely and i'm reading the books at the moment. I'd quite like to watch up to the end of each book as I finish each one (i'm about 3/4 of the way through the first).



Season 1 - A Game of Thrones
Season 2 - A Clash of Kings
Season 3 - A Storm of Swords (First half)
Season 4 - A Storm of Swords (Second half)
Season 5 - A Feast for Crows AND A Dance of Dragons
Season 6 - The Winds of Winter (not yet released)

Mostly. After the first two seasons, the "Season to Book conversion" gets pretty sloppy. Lots of plot points bleed over from season to season or are radically shuffled around / omitted / changed / etc. Essentially, once you get into AFFC/ADWD, it's pretty much impossible to read the book then watch the events that happened in that book.


----------



## wankerness

vividox said:


> Season 1 - A Game of Thrones
> Season 2 - A Clash of Kings
> Season 3 - A Storm of Swords (First half)
> Season 4 - A Storm of Swords (Second half)
> Season 5 - A Feast for Crows AND A Dance of Dragons
> Season 6 - The Winds of Winter (not yet released)
> 
> Mostly. After the first two seasons, the "Season to Book conversion" gets pretty sloppy. Lots of plot points bleed over from season to season or are radically shuffled around / omitted / changed / etc. Essentially, once you get into AFFC/ADWD, it's pretty much impossible to read the book then watch the events that happened in that book.



Season 5 has some material that hasn't happened in the books yet. Season 4 had some stuff from the later books, as well (particularly Reek stuff). If this guy is trying to avoid BOOK spoilers then he shouldn't even watch season 4 until he's finished all 5 books.  But yeah, by and large this post is accurate. I started reading book 3 after the 9th episode of season 3 aired, and I started at the point in the book where the episode had left off, and wasn't lost at all.


----------



## jonajon91

^ just to clarify, I had watched everything up to date before I started even thinking about reading the books.


----------



## vividox

It's also worth noting that A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons are concurrent novels: they both take place over roughly the same time period but each focuses on a different geographical part of the world. The two books line up again towards the end of ADWD. That's why they were combined for season 5 - so you didn't go an entire season without seeing half of the characters. This is due to the fact that Martin wrote way too much material for the fourth planned book and it had to be split into two books - AFFC and ADWD.

A lot of people aren't fans of the geographical split, but it is what it is. I actually would recommend reading through them twice - once in the order of release, and then a second time with them combined like this. I wasn't much of a fan of them the first time I read them, but after reading the combined version, I absolutely love them.

Anyway, enjoy your read through. The books really are special, especially on re-reads (if you've got the time). Martin is just an effing genius.


----------



## djyngwie

Speaking of the books: I just finished reading through ADWD. The books are a lot more deep and interesting than the show (I still love the show). After reading the books, I've been checking out some theories. In particular this guy called Preston Jacobs has some intriguing (and tin-foily) theory videos worth a look, IMO.

In short, I'm now very much looking forward to both season 6 and The Winds of Winter ...


----------



## soliloquy

i just caught up to the ending of season 5. all i gotta say is WHY?!


some things i liked or didn't understand



Spoiler



FINALLY deneris is out of mereen! that town was really pissing me off as they spent over 2 seasons there with very little development over the bigger picture (ie westoros). though i dont really get, and this is where tyrion was getting at, is why must one rule over westoros and not the eastern continent. what inherently makes westoros more valuable aside from the iron throne, and aside from 'legacy of the fore fathers'. but maybe thats me as i'm not sentimental and dont care much for traditions...regardless, i am curious to see if the dothraki's will once again be sided with deneris or not.


the other thing i didn't like was that end of season 4, they show bran with what seemed like the spirit world. i was expecting to see him at ANY point of the season. not one glimpse of him. sure, they mentioned him twice....but thats about it. i was almost missing hodor. 

and i'm bad with names, so dont know her name, but the red witch who gave birth to that weird shadow...i'm guessing she'll bring jon snow back from the dead? they mentioned in the past seasons that there are people with power that can bring people back to life and use fire. now if they bring em back, i wonder if they will be like the mountain, or completely different creatures, or be back like they once were.

and maybe its just me...but westoros as a whole is looking a lot like pissy little people bickering over who gets the last cookie. all their squabbles seem so petty and not necessary...but again, maybe thats just me as i go by the 'live and let live' motto. 

but seriously...WTF!? why jon snow!?


----------



## wankerness

soliloquy said:


> and i'm bad with names, so dont know her name, but the red witch who gave birth to that weird shadow...i'm guessing she'll bring jon snow back from the dead? they mentioned in the past seasons that there are people with power that can bring people back to life and use fire. now if they bring em back, i wonder if they will be like the mountain, or completely different creatures, or be back like they once were.



Based on the resurrection done by "the lord of light" previously on the show (whatshisname the leader of that group of bandits who fought the Hound with the fire sword), he could be the same just with nasty scars. Zombie mountain was done by the creepy magister guy and I presume that was similar magic to making the zombie Khal Drogo back in season 1, both of which seemed to be different and involve the soul being gone. Khal Drogo obviously turned out terribly, but the witch seemed to be intentionally trying to screw it up cause she hated Daenerys. Zombie mountain seems to be an improvement over what he was previously, but still a zombie. I do vaguely remember some dialogue between Melisandre and the bandits where she expressed disbelief and said she never had anywhere near the ability to resurrect anyone, though, so maybe we'd get messed up zombie jon. I'd laugh in the 1% chance he just didn't get resurrected at all, though. Book people would RIOT. All those years of theorizing for nothing!

Not sure why you used a huge wall of spoilers on something that aired months ago, no one is going to read this thread without having caught up, and if they do they deserve it!


----------



## soliloquy

i just used spoilers to be on the safe side. i'm enjoying that people who are watching/reading game of thrones aren't spoiling things for others who are behind. its something i haven't seen in other shows. even shows like dexter, where if not the fans watching it, it was the actual official facebook page was spoiling things for people who were maybe 1 or 2 episodes behind. for example, in season 4 ending, the facebook thing said something like 'so what is the difference between miguel and rita? nothing. they both are dead'. for people who are on the second or third last episode...not cool. 

and at the same time, its irritating for those who want to binge watch the show but people spoil it.


----------



## wankerness

Season 6 marketing has been released, and guess who the face of it is!! :/


----------



## jonajon91

APRIL?!


----------



## vividox

Man, I was really hoping Winds of Winter would come out a week before the season started, but it's really getting to be pinch time for something like that to happen. Outlook not so good.


----------



## sawtoothscream

What happened to the one kid the girl a the big guy? Seems to be the only male of the family left and he vanished from the show.


----------



## sawtoothscream

Also the many face god girl can go, every scene with her sucked last season and dragged on to long.


----------



## Sumsar

I began reading the books 3 months ago, and having made it to "a storm of swords, 2: blood and gold" I feel like the books are much better than the series (I guess that is kinda always the case), so I think I will not watch the new series until I have read the corresponding book, as it would be nice to read a book without knowing what is going to happen before hand


----------



## chopeth

Sumsar said:


> I feel like the books are much better than the series



They three first ones were.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

vividox said:


> Man, I was really hoping Winds of Winter would come out a week before the season started, but it's really getting to be pinch time for something like that to happen. Outlook not so good.



With George's track record and how slow he works we would be lucky to get the book by the earliest 2017-2018, then another 5-6 years for A dream of Spring. The show is going to finish way before him, even though they're telling their own dumbed down story thats gearing towards some very different outcomes there will still be a huge backlash from "book" fans which will only discourage George even more. Right now the future of the series is up in the air and has been for many years, he started panicking last year and cancelled most of his trips/plans to concentrate on TWOW but it wasn't enough time to get it out before next season.


----------



## The Mirror

chopeth said:


> The *five first ones were.



FTFY


----------



## chopeth

The Mirror said:


> FTFY



Don't agree, I enjoyed a lot the first books, but the last one was a nightmare to read. Story opening more and more, new unnecessary characters and plots, fewer and fewer exciting moments... I got sick of it. The series is a more down to Earth project, more cohesive and storylike for me.


----------



## sakeido

The Mirror said:


> FTFY



LOL .... no. Books 4 and 5 are two of the slowest, most poorly written books I've read in my whole life, and I've read a few hundred including some eBook only self published specials


----------



## vividox

Slow: yes. 
Travel-log-y: yes. 
Poor: no.

FFC/DWD is a tough slog the first time through because it's a complete departure from the first three and is more of a set-up than a continuation. Personally, I think they are a much better read the second time, much better to read together chronologically, and will look a lot better when WOW/DOS get here. 

Dany's story line in particular gets a lot of flak from readers, but once you realize the themes of her story (a struggle between Dany's "Mother of Dragons" and "Mhysa" personas which are directly thematically tied to what her dragons are experiencing) and what it means for her role in the coming books, it's probably the most important story of the entire series so far. Read these if you don't believe me: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4.

Anyway, I happen to think FFC/DWD are not poor in the slightest, in fact I'd say they are incredibly good. The one damning thing I can say about them is that they are two geographically separated books instead of one giant ass book.


----------



## MFB

FFC is probably my 2nd favorite in the series as you get all the details from another perspective



Spoiler



Nothing like experiencing Cerseis descent into madness first hand


----------



## wankerness

I only managed to make it through FFC, I have had Dance with Dragons sitting on my shelf looking at me for over a year now and I just can't make myself do it, especially after hearing the nearly unanimous hatred of Daenerys and especially Tyrion's chapters. FFC was REALLY, REALLY hard to force myself through. I did legitimately enjoy the Cersei chapters, but that was it. Brienne and Arya really didn't do anything interesting apart from the big spoiler with Brienne, and the sand snakes were almost as awful and boring as they are on the show. 

I sort of liked a bit of the weird Drowned God stuff, too, but I didn't like having to learn about 10 new major characters in the Iron Islands, most of whom had a last name ending with -on like a bunch of gd Eevee evolutions, and all of whom were apparently dropped from the show due to irrelevance to the main plot.

I read FFC before this season, and was surprised by how little time it took for them to blow all the way through (and beyond!) what little plot was contained in FFC.


----------



## chopeth

wankerness said:


> I sort of liked a bit of the weird Drowned God stuff, too, but I didn't like having to learn about 10 new major characters in the Iron Islands, most of whom had a last name ending with -on like a bunch of gd Eevee evolutions, and all of whom were apparently dropped from the show due to irrelevance to the main plot.
> .



I was very excited reading about all these guys too, Euron and all of them seemed to me like a fresh plot introduction in the story, but yes, it was almost completely forgotten and that made me lose still more interest in the books. Terrible story development imo.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

AFFC and ADWD had a lot of problems. I would have enjoyed AFFC a bit more if I knew there wasn't going to be a Jon/Dany/Tyrion chapter. I loved the Ironborn story and the introduction of Euron and Victarion, The walk of Shame and the Citadel but everything else really dragged out and concentrated way to much on characters I didn't care much about. Brienne and Jaime had 7-8 chapters which really bloated the book. Same with ADWD where the Meerenese Knot brought some many plots to a standstill. 

I really liked Reeks/Theons story arc, those chapters are chilling and the gift chapter from TWOW is one of my favourite George has done. Griff/Young Griff was a late introduction but so far I really enjoyed their story. I couldn't get into Dorne and most of Tyrion's journey. The story just got too big with way to many characters & locations. 

I hated how we didn't get the Battle of Mereen or Battle of Ice(Stannis/Northerners vs Boltons/Freys vs Manderly). The latter was originally in ADWD but his editor pushed him to release the book so it was cut out. Same with another Bran chapter that was to take place around the Battle of Ice.

I loved A storm of swords and the end is just one twist after another but I really had to force myself to get through AFFC/ADWD. The chapters George has released from TWOW are much more focused so I'm confident the next book will be like ASOS.


----------



## sakeido

vividox said:


> Slow: yes.
> Travel-log-y: yes.
> Poor: no.
> 
> FFC/DWD is a tough slog the first time through because it's a complete departure from the first three and is more of a set-up than a continuation. Personally, I think they are a much better read the second time, much better to read together chronologically, and will look a lot better when WOW/DOS get here.
> 
> Dany's story line in particular gets a lot of flak from readers, but once you realize the themes of her story (a struggle between Dany's "Mother of Dragons" and "Mhysa" personas which are directly thematically tied to what her dragons are experiencing) and what it means for her role in the coming books, it's probably the most important story of the entire series so far. Read these if you don't believe me: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4.
> 
> Anyway, I happen to think FFC/DWD are not poor in the slightest, in fact I'd say they are incredibly good. The one damning thing I can say about them is that they are two geographically separated books instead of one giant ass book.



It's kind of writing 101 that your books are complete in and of themselves. Only the fantasy fandom seems willing to give authors passes for writing books that don't have a functional beginning/middle/end structure, which neither book 4 or 5 have. Only a bad author writing bad books needs 722,000 words to hit up the high points of what happens in 4/5. Only a _really_ bad author would waste all that time on the Brienne chapters while revealing to the reader that her quest is utterly pointless. 

And setup for what? There is no book 6 yet, and even if there is, it becomes more and more likely all the time there will never even be a book 7.


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> It's kind of writing 101 that your books are complete in and of themselves. Only the fantasy fandom seems willing to give authors passes for writing books that don't have a functional beginning/middle/end structure, which neither book 4 or 5 have. Only a bad author writing bad books needs 722,000 words to hit up the high points of what happens in 4/5. Only a _really_ bad author would waste all that time on the Brienne chapters while revealing to the reader that her quest is utterly pointless.
> 
> And setup for what? There is no book 6 yet, and even if there is, it becomes more and more likely all the time there will never even be a book 7.



I didn't like FFC, but this comment is silly. That's like saying all songs need a verse/chorus structure - many people that venture outside of it don't know what they're doing and create unfocused junk, but a ton of people do and would be held back negatively by being forced to that constraint. It's not just the fantasy world that will "put up with this" and it's not necessarily the sign of a bad book. I don't think FFC is very good, but I think there's a whole host of reasons why it isn't good and think that structure complaint could be applied to the first three books as well, all of which are widely considered to be very good.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

sakeido said:


> Only a _really_ bad author would waste all that time on the Quentyn chapters while revealing to the reader that his quest is utterly pointless.



Fixed that for you. 



sakeido said:


> And setup for what? There is no book 6 yet, and even if there is, it becomes more and more likely all the time there will never even be a book 7.



Last Year (Winds of Winter): grrm

He sounds extremely stressed out. He's been working on this book for nearly 10 years, maybe more and he is still a long way from finishing it.


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> I didn't like FFC, but this comment is silly. That's like saying all songs need a verse/chorus structure - many people that venture outside of it don't know what they're doing and create unfocused junk, but a ton of people do and would be held back negatively by being forced to that constraint. It's not just the fantasy world that will "put up with this" and it's not necessarily the sign of a bad book. I don't think FFC is very good, but I think there's a whole host of reasons why it isn't good and think that structure complaint could be applied to the first three books as well, all of which are widely considered to be very good.



Not quite as silly as comparing books to songs. Please give me an example of a book outside the fantasy fandom that is as long and pointless as books 4 or 6, or the Wheel of Time series, that has a good reputation. 



Lorcan Ward said:


> Fixed that for you.



His quest was a pointless waste of time too, but that is not the same thing as having a lot of Brienne chapters that were supposedly about her trying to find the Stark girls, and having POV chapters for the Stark girls that made it totally clear that Brienne never stood a chance of completing her quest. So instead Brienne is just wandering around talking to people who confirm that yes, life is indeed bad in Westoros. 



> Last Year (Winds of Winter): grrm
> 
> He sounds extremely stressed out. He's been working on this book for nearly 10 years, maybe more and he is still a long way from finishing it.



Oh well! He lost with me books 4/5 anyway. The few chapters of book 6 that have been released are just awful too.. they helped take the edge off the wait.


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> Not quite as silly as comparing books to songs. Please give me an example of a book outside the fantasy fandom that is as long and pointless as books 4 or 6, or the Wheel of Time series, that has a good reputation.



With the qualifier "pointless" included I can't really give you anything since you could just come back and say "IT'S NOT AS POINTLESS AS THESE" no matter what example I gave since it's entirely a matter of opinion and the authors/fans all thought there was a point :/ But to give two incredibly obvious examples of fiction without standard dramatic structures that are held up as absolute classics of English literature and widely praised, except by numerous critics who say they are pointless, James Joyce's Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake. Obviously GRR Martin is not even remotely in the same universe as Joyce in terms of quality, but yeah.


----------



## vividox

sakeido said:


> It's kind of writing 101 that your books are complete in and of themselves. Only the fantasy fandom seems willing to give authors passes for writing books that don't have a functional beginning/middle/end structure, which neither book 4 or 5 have. Only a bad author writing bad books needs 722,000 words to hit up the high points of what happens in 4/5. Only a _really_ bad author would waste all that time on the Brienne chapters while revealing to the reader that her quest is utterly pointless.
> 
> And setup for what? There is no book 6 yet, and even if there is, it becomes more and more likely all the time there will never even be a book 7.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tc_zN-F-pY


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> With the qualifier "pointless" included I can't really give you anything since you could just come back and say "IT'S NOT AS POINTLESS AS THESE" no matter what example I gave since it's entirely a matter of opinion and the authors/fans all thought there was a point :/ But to give two incredibly obvious examples of fiction without standard dramatic structures that are held up as absolute classics of English literature and widely praised, except by numerous critics who say they are pointless, James Joyce's Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake. Obviously GRR Martin is not even remotely in the same universe as Joyce in terms of quality, but yeah.



Was really hoping I'd get an answer that was not either one of those books, but oh well. A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius would have worked. It even ends mid-sentence. But it is still not pointless in the same way huge stretches of books 4 and 5 are pointless, and is leagues above the crap prose that made up 4/5. Where do whores go?


----------



## wankerness

Oh, I agree that 2/3 of the books are garbage. I hated reading FFC. I just don't agree with the idea that the lack of a typical dramatic structure is always a problem, or that it's one that is only tolerated in fantasy.

I almost never read fiction apart from all the lit I read in college, so I'm not good at coming up with a lot of examples. One I did read that seems to be widely respected was "house of leaves," though I personally thought that one had a lot of issues structurally and thus is not a good example.  "Naked Lunch" is another obvious example, but I hate that book!


----------



## DanicaL

How much do you want to bet that the dragons are the only things that are going to be able to stop the white walkers?


----------



## vividox

DanicaL said:


> How much do you want to bet that the dragons are the only things that are going to be able to stop the white walkers?


Well we already know that Valyrian steel will stop them, so....


----------



## MFB

My boss started reading book one after me and a fellow co-worker talked him into it, and then she started re-reading it as well; so naturally, I've bandwagoned with them and all three of us are. It's great being able to visualize the characters and you pick up on so much more during the second run; Martin's style was a departure from anything I had previously read, and with it being so dense you get some mental fatigue which means things sometimes don't stick when you stop.


----------



## vividox

Yeah, I loved my second read through of ASOIAF, way more than the first time I read through it. It's amazing how much foreshadowing and "setting up the chess pieces" there is from the very first chapter.


----------



## AxeHappy

vividox said:


> Well we already know that Valyrian steel will stop them, so....



And Obsidian.


----------



## espdna

is it april yet...


----------



## espdna

srsly, 6 weeks. lets go.


----------



## wankerness

Fortunately that last trailer answered most of the questions I had at the end of last season so now I'm more than OK with the wait.


----------



## kootenay

The trailers don't help me at all, it just feeds the fire even more!!!


----------



## wankerness

I was hoping they'd pulled a Jar Jar Binks (he got shoved way off to the sidelines in the follow-up due to fan outcry), but nope, they're really bearing down on this sand snakes garbage. Everything in Dorne is cancer, and the episode never quite recovers after their scenes.

The first section with Sansa/Reek is by FAR the best section of this whole premiere, A+ material right there. I'm also incredibly pumped for the Castle Black and Melisandre stuff, though I'm not sure that end reveal was a direction I liked. Give me more Carice Van Houten, please.

Daenerys is as lame as usual. Tyrion/Varys's stuff was boring despite their simple dialogue scenes in the first season being a highlight of the entire show's run. Ah well. I'm really not very interested in the struggles of "a girl," either, but that at least feels like maybe it will turn into something interesting someday. UNLIKE THE SAND SNAKES


----------



## OmegaSlayer

wankerness said:


> I was hoping they'd pulled a Jar Jar Binks (he got shoved way off to the sidelines in the follow-up due to fan outcry), but nope, they're really bearing down on this sand snakes garbage. Everything in Dorne is cancer, and the episode never quite recovers after their scenes.
> 
> The first section with Sansa/Reek is by FAR the best section of this whole premiere, A+ material right there. I'm also incredibly pumped for the Castle Black and Melisandre stuff, though I'm not sure that end reveal was a direction I liked. Give me more Carice Van Houten, please.
> 
> Daenerys is as lame as usual. Tyrion/Varys's stuff was boring despite their simple dialogue scenes in the first season being a highlight of the entire show's run. Ah well. I'm really not very interested in the struggles of "a girl," either, but that at least feels like maybe it will turn into something interesting someday. UNLIKE THE SAND SNAKES



So...it's pretty bad...


----------



## Maybrick

Thoughts?

Here Are Some Game Of Thrones Cocktails To Bring In The New Season - Pretty 52


----------



## Alex6534

I quite enjoyed it  Sand snakes aren't bringing much to the table bur the first episode is always a platform to build from for the rest of the season, so I wasn't expecting anything too great. Loved Sansa's scene and cannot wait to see what happens with Melisandre.


----------



## bostjan

The scene with Arya was cool. The scenes in the North were cool. Most of the rest was pretty unremarkable, to me.

I hope we see some more of Bran soon, as well as Sam.

One thing that threw me a little was the writing on the wall in Meereen, being in English, when it seems like the common tongue there is something else. Oh well.

I don't think the show will ever recapture the quality of season 1. And after keeping most of the magical stuff from the source material very low key in the show, to the extent of deleting entire plotlines, the big "reveal" at the end of episode one was a bit odd, to me.


----------



## vividox

Lot of reminders of where everyone is after last season and a little bit of setup. Not a terrible episode, but a typical GoT premiere. Dorne is just... ugh. Awful. They just neutralized the only remaining interesting aspects about it and doubled down on the single-minded REVENGE plot.

I was kind of excited that Brienne finally found here a Stark daughter to protect.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, Brienne's scene was great. 

After reading reactions from BOOK PEOPLE, the Dorne thing almost amuses me. They're all absolutely livid since I guess killing that character off basically blew past the entirety of the Dorne plot from the books. BOOK PEOPLE seem to think this means they gave up on Dorne and just nuked the subplot. I hope that means they're writing the characters out of the show instead of giving them a revenge plot for this season (the latter seems more likely, unfortunately). The actresses for the Sand Snakes are SO, SO, SO bad. The least they could have done, if they're going to keep them around, was to recast them with actual actresses. They have recast other characters between seasons! They missed their chance.







Plot hole?


----------



## InFlames235

wankerness said:


> Yeah, Brienne's scene was great.
> 
> After reading reactions from BOOK PEOPLE, the Dorne thing almost amuses me. They're all absolutely livid since I guess killing that character off basically blew past the entirety of the Dorne plot from the books. BOOK PEOPLE seem to think this means they gave up on Dorne and just nuked the subplot. I hope that means they're writing the characters out of the show instead of giving them a revenge plot for this season (the latter seems more likely, unfortunately). The actresses for the Sand Snakes are SO, SO, SO bad. The least they could have done, if they're going to keep them around, was to recast them with actual actresses. They have recast other characters between seasons! They missed their chance.
> 
> Plot hole?



Haha good find on the picture. I was wondering if it's the necklace that hides her true image or if she just can control that herself and we just think it's the necklace?? Due to the picture I'm gonna have to say she can control the image by herself tho


----------



## crg123

I loved the "money to *eat *your baby" comment due to Tyrion's poor Valerian


----------



## bostjan

Wankerness said:


> BOOK PEOPLE



What's wrong with reading the books? They aren't exactly high art, but, then, neither is this show.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> What's wrong with reading the books? They aren't exactly high art, but, then, neither is this show.



There's nothing wrong with reading the books, I'm referring to the sorts of people that absolutely dominate the comment section on avclub who do nothing other than lengthy infuriated rants about anything that changes anything in the books in any way. Check out the comments on the "experts" review of the last episode for a good illustration. BOOK PEOPLE are the sort that think any variance is terrible by default because the books are untouchable masterpieces. People that read the books are not usually BOOK PEOPLE


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> There's nothing wrong with reading the books, I'm referring to the sorts of people that absolutely dominate the comment section on avclub who do nothing other than lengthy infuriated rants about anything that changes anything in the books in any way. Check out the comments on the "experts" review of the last episode for a good illustration. BOOK PEOPLE are the sort that think any variance is terrible by default because the books are untouchable masterpieces. People that read the books are not usually BOOK PEOPLE



AV club comment section and Gawker comment section are the epitome of terrible comment section. I like AV club articles, but the comments section is a no no for me

As far as the episode I really think they are setting up for something way down the road. That's all this show is, something way down the road. Yes stuff does happen, but it's pretty unlike many shows we are used to. I think that shows are just now starting to use this tactic. 

I enjoyed the episode for what it was, a set up for all events this season and possibly into next season. Something doesn't have to happen every single episode, if I'm looking for a show like that there are plenty of shows out there that do this. I've always found the payoffs to be worth the wait (red wedding, joffrey's death, john snow death, the scene with the white walkers which is probably one of the best scenes in the history of television.) It's just like breaking bad was, not always apparent why something was happening but it all came around later. 

I'm looking forward to this season since it's the only show that is appointment viewing for me and my wife that I don't watch on DVR.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> There's nothing wrong with reading the books, I'm referring to the sorts of people that absolutely dominate the comment section on avclub who do nothing other than lengthy infuriated rants about anything that changes anything in the books in any way. Check out the comments on the "experts" review of the last episode for a good illustration. BOOK PEOPLE are the sort that think any variance is terrible by default because the books are untouchable masterpieces. People that read the books are not usually BOOK PEOPLE



Gotcha.

I think the show could improve on many things from the books. I think it actually did take opportunities in earlier seasons to do so, but then some things seemed changed for no particular reason, which is fine, but then when I ended up not particularly liking a character or where they went with something, I kind of wondered why. At this point, I don't don't particularly think the books are very good, and I don't know where the show is going, so I'm not a huge fan of either one, yet I will surely keep watching and purchase the next book, if there ever is one, which, I guess makes me a fan, and this entire sentence false.

As far as nothing happening this episode, I disagree. Three characters died, along with several other no names, we saw quite a bit of tension in the North, and some kind of slow moving exposition in King's Landing and in the East. Then the Sand Snakes, which, well, whatever. At least three of the main characters had major changes in their position or motivation. I think it could have been easily done in 75% of the time without losing anything dramatically, but whatever, at least it's not a Herman Melville novel, just blathering on about inconsequential stuff.

I actually kind of prefer the realism side, you know, less magical-type stuff than the books, like how the show started out. It does seem like the showrunners are getting away from that, gradually introducing magic.

In general, I don't mind that some stuff seems to go perpetually unanswered, but, as with the books and the show alike, there is too much dissonance and not enough cadence in the storyline. Look at most fantasy serials, and there is a story within each book, or each series, or each season, or whatever. Season 1 of GoT was perfect that way, as was the corresponding book (GoT), but now the show and the books are kind of open-ended, not really starting or ending with much structure, and the storylines really, to me, don't seem to be going anywhere in particular. I think this takes something away from the overall beauty of a story and panders more to popcorn munching cliffhangers, setting in a hook from one episode to the next, but, over time and time again using that trick, it cheapens the storyline overall.

Meh, I sound like an old fart rattling on and on about some crap I think I actually know something about when I don't, so I'll just stop here.


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> I think the show could improve on many things from the books. I think it actually did take opportunities in earlier seasons to do so, but then some things seemed changed for no particular reason, which is fine, but then when I ended up not particularly liking a character or where they went with something, I kind of wondered why. At this point, I don't don't particularly think the books are very good, and I don't know where the show is going, so I'm not a huge fan of either one, yet I will surely keep watching and purchase the next book, if there ever is one, which, I guess makes me a fan, and this entire sentence false.
> 
> As far as nothing happening this episode, I disagree. Three characters died, along with several other no names, we saw quite a bit of tension in the North, and some kind of slow moving exposition in King's Landing and in the East. Then the Sand Snakes, which, well, whatever. At least three of the main characters had major changes in their position or motivation. I think it could have been easily done in 75% of the time without losing anything dramatically, but whatever, at least it's not a Herman Melville novel, just blathering on about inconsequential stuff.
> 
> I actually kind of prefer the realism side, you know, less magical-type stuff than the books, like how the show started out. It does seem like the showrunners are getting away from that, gradually introducing magic.
> 
> In general, I don't mind that some stuff seems to go perpetually unanswered, but, as with the books and the show alike, there is too much dissonance and not enough cadence in the storyline. Look at most fantasy serials, and there is a story within each book, or each series, or each season, or whatever. Season 1 of GoT was perfect that way, as was the corresponding book (GoT), but now the show and the books are kind of open-ended, not really starting or ending with much structure, and the storylines really, to me, don't seem to be going anywhere in particular. I think this takes something away from the overall beauty of a story and panders more to popcorn munching cliffhangers, setting in a hook from one episode to the next, but, over time and time again using that trick, it cheapens the storyline overall.
> 
> Meh, I sound like an old fart rattling on and on about some crap I think I actually know something about when I don't, so I'll just stop here.




Oh you mean another popular show that's on AMC that does this? Or Lost before it? Both of those shows aren't very good despite their popularity, but I'm hoping Game of Thrones has some brilliant master stroke we all aren't seeing.


----------



## mongey

I actually liked it allot 

the plot does need to progress this season after not going far last season but I thought it set up the season really well

plus I admit I got a little teary at the Brienne scene


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> Yeah, Brienne's scene was great.
> 
> After reading reactions from BOOK PEOPLE, the Dorne thing almost amuses me. They're all absolutely livid since I guess killing that character off basically blew past the entirety of the Dorne plot from the books. BOOK PEOPLE seem to think this means they gave up on Dorne and just nuked the subplot. I hope that means they're writing the characters out of the show instead of giving them a revenge plot for this season (the latter seems more likely, unfortunately). The actresses for the Sand Snakes are SO, SO, SO bad. The least they could have done, if they're going to keep them around, was to recast them with actual actresses. They have recast other characters between seasons! They missed their chance.


The entire Dorne storyline has been an abortion. We BOOK PEOPLE are so upset because the book Dorne plot is actually interesting. The show introduced a hacked version of it, recycled it down to "REVENGE" and then killed off all the interesting characters. It's mind-numbingly one-dimensional and, as you stated, the actresses / acting / filing / production in general has been several notches down from the rest of the series. It's just bad.


----------



## wankerness

Didn't you reach a point last year at which you were like "this is so bad they should just give up on it," though? It seems like it was beyond salvaging the second they introduced the sand snakes, and it only got worse from there.


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> Didn't you reach a point last year at which you were like "this is so bad they should just give up on it," though? It seems like it was beyond salvaging the second they introduced the sand snakes, and it only got worse from there.


Yeah, definitely reached that point last year. I guess I have a tendency to wonder what could have been. Which is kind of a stupid waste of time, but I still have a tendency to do it. I guess if they are going to nuke it, that's the way to do it, and hopefully we'll get less Dorne as a result. Although I have a sinking feeling we're going to see quite a bit more Sand Snakes and their quest for revenge before it's all said and done.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> The entire Dorne storyline has been an abortion. We BOOK PEOPLE are so upset because the book Dorne plot is actually interesting. The show introduced a hacked version of it, recycled it down to "REVENGE" and then killed off all the interesting characters. It's mind-numbingly one-dimensional and, as you stated, the actresses / acting / filing / production in general has been several notches down from the rest of the series. It's just bad.



The Dorne stuff in the books was not my favourite plot, but what the show has done seems so stupidConsidering all of the more interesting plots in the book that were completely excised from the show, I just don't know what the hell they were thinking. What I really think is that season one could have been perfect as it was, but then they could have seriously slowed down the pace of the show starting with season two, since it should have been obvious that GRRM was not going to be done with the books for many years. They could have added in some stuff to flesh out any boring subplots and gone from there. But, it's really easy to criticize something you weren't involved in making.

Now that the show is in some uncharted territory for "BOOK PEOPLE," maybe it will shine out more on its own. IMO, there was plenty of crap in the books that could have been left out, but then, I'm not fanatic about the books

This season will have to crash pretty hard to lose my interest, but for while now, there have been some plots I just don't care about as much as others anymore. Now,


Spoiler



with Jon Snow dead


 I think the show might have a harder time carrying on, in general.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> The Dorne stuff in the books was not my favourite plot, but what the show has done seems so stupidConsidering all of the more interesting plots in the book that were completely excised from the show, I just don't know what the hell they were thinking. What I really think is that season one could have been perfect as it was, but then they could have seriously slowed down the pace of the show starting with season two, since it should have been obvious that GRRM was not going to be done with the books for many years. They could have added in some stuff to flesh out any boring subplots and gone from there. But, it's really easy to criticize something you weren't involved in making.
> 
> Now that the show is in some uncharted territory for "BOOK PEOPLE," maybe it will shine out more on its own. IMO, there was plenty of crap in the books that could have been left out, but then, I'm not fanatic about the books
> 
> This season will have to crash pretty hard to lose my interest, but for while now, there have been some plots I just don't care about as much as others anymore. Now,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> with Jon Snow dead
> 
> 
> I think the show might have a harder time carrying on, in general.


My problem is I have an incredibly obsessive personality. I'll consume relatively few books/movies/bands/etc. but the ones I do consume I will consume over and over and over and over again. As advertised, I got completely obsessed with _A Song of Ice and Fire_ and have read through them several times (and highly recommend re-reading _A Feast for Crows_ and _A Dance with Dragons_ concurrently if you ever get around to reading it again). I honestly can't say there is one storyline or subplot that I _don't_ find interesting.

So, yeah, I definitely agree, I would have loved for them seriously slow down the pace around the 2nd season and really dive into more threads. I was pretty astonished to hear they were combining FFC and DWD into a single season 5. I thought they easily could have drawn those out to 2 or even 3 seasons and given GRRM time to get at least WOW out.

As book-preferring as I am, though, I really don't mind that the series is ahead of the books. They are so different I don't even see them as the same story anymore. I'll enjoy the show when it comes out and I'll enjoy the books if they ever come out.

Also,


Spoiler



I don't for a second believe that Jon is really truly forever dead. He'll be back in some form, some how.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I don't for a second believe that Jon is really truly forever dead. He'll be back in some form, some how.



At the pace GRRM writes, it is actually becoming likely that he won't resolve the entire series ever. Wouldn't it be ironic and sad if GRRM died before he could finish a story where everyone dies before they can finish what they intend to do?

I'd would not be surprised by much of anything at this point, concerning that story line, but since the television series ignored most of the other


Spoiler



characters who come back to life in the books


, this could quite easily generate a lot of enduring fuss. My thought is, though, that once the initial wave of fuss is over, if this issue is not resolved in some way, then people may lose interest in the show, particularly if they kill off any of the remaining characters that anyone actually cares about, which, really, on my list would be 3 other characters in the television series, maybe a another 1-2 from the novels who are not featured in the show.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> The Dorne stuff in the books was not my favourite plot, but what the show has done seems so stupid&#8230;Considering all of the more interesting plots in the book that were completely excised from the show, I just don't know what the hell they were thinking. What I really think is that season one could have been perfect as it was,* but then they could have seriously slowed down the pace of the show starting with season two, since it should have been obvious that GRRM was not going to be done with the books for many years.* They could have added in some stuff to flesh out any boring subplots and gone from there. But, it's really easy to criticize something you weren't involved in making.
> 
> Now that the show is in some uncharted territory for "BOOK PEOPLE," maybe it will shine out more on its own. IMO, there was plenty of crap in the books that could have been left out, but then, I'm not fanatic about the books&#8230;
> 
> This season will have to crash pretty hard to lose my interest, but for while now, there have been some plots I just don't care about as much as others anymore. Now,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> with Jon Snow dead
> 
> 
> I think the show might have a harder time carrying on, in general.



If they had cast the show entirely with robots or it was animated, that would have worked, but you have biological clocks ticking on all the cast members! Having people get visibly older when only a few months have passed on the show would be weird. It's bad enough with the likes of Bran as is, but just imagine if it was going to be another 10 seasons or something. Some of their old dudes probably would die, the early 30s people like Natalie Dormer and Kit Harrington will look radically different in several years, the likes of Carice Van Houten and Lena Headey might hit menopause, Arya/Podrick playing a kid would be hilarious, and they'd surely be losing cast members right and left cause they wouldn't want to be locked into it for the entirety of the prime years of their acting careers.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> If they had cast the show entirely with robots or it was animated, that would have worked, but you have biological clocks ticking on all the cast members! Having people get visibly older when only a few months have passed on the show would be weird. It's bad enough with the likes of Bran as is, but just imagine if it was going to be another 10 seasons or something. Some of their old dudes probably would die, the early 30s people like Natalie Dormer and Kit Harrington will look radically different in several years, the likes of Carice Van Houten and Lena Headey might hit menopause, Arya/Podrick playing a kid would be hilarious, and they'd surely be losing cast members right and left cause they wouldn't want to be locked into it for the entirety of the prime years of their acting careers.



Plenty of shows go on for decades using the same actors and actresses, and besides, the source material (BOOK PEOPLE would know) has a great deal more time passing than the show. If they didn't want the show to drag on so long, then they could have written the ending without GRRM (which they likely will end up doing), or wait until he was finished to start filming (but too late now).


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> *Plenty of shows go on for decades using the same actors and actresses,* and besides, the source material (BOOK PEOPLE would know) has a great deal more time passing than the show. If they didn't want the show to drag on so long, then they could have written the ending without GRRM (which they likely will end up doing), or wait until he was finished to start filming (but too late now).



1) Like what? All My Children? 

2) According to the wiki and various book fans, the time from the beginning of book 1 to the end of book 3 is ~3 years, so there already the TV show has an extra year of aging in there. Apparently books 4-5 are another 1 year.



> Adding these rough estimates gives us around 25-28 months (2 years 1 month/4 months) for the 5 books so far. Some of these are purely estimates, and that too, as short as possible estimates, so the actual time could be - and probably is - much longer. The two pregnancies (Dany's and Roslin's), which take place several months/over a year apart, help give us an idea of the time periods involved for the first, fourth and fifth books, but the rest are just guesswork on my part.
> 
> Birthdays provide another touchstone: Sansa is 11 at the beginning of AGOT, almost 13 on her wedding day in ASOS, and not yet 14 in AFFC, so less than 3 years pass between AGOT and AFFC. Joffrey turns 12 just before the beginning of AGOT, turns 13 at the beginning of ACOK, and is still 13 when he dies in ASOS (though probably close to his 14th birthday - sorry, I mean nameday.) Arya is 9 at the beginning of AGOT, and thinks she is already 11 in AFFC but is not sure.


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> If they had cast the show entirely with robots or it was animated,


I would love to see a more truer-to-the-books animated adaptation.

(I'd also like to live in a universe where Firefly wasn't canceled by Fox and where the ending to Mass Effect wasn't obliterated by EA.)


----------



## sakeido

vividox said:


> I would love to see a more truer-to-the-books animated adaptation.
> 
> (I'd also like to live in a universe where Firefly wasn't canceled by Fox and where the ending to Mass Effect wasn't obliterated by EA.)



Mass Effect's ending was always going to suck because the writers ....ed up and made the Reapers too powerful and too numerous for them to be dealt with by anything except a deus ex machina. It had nothing to do with EA and everything to do with writing themselves into a corner. 



bostjan said:


> Plenty of shows go on for decades using the same actors and actresses, and besides, the source material (BOOK PEOPLE would know) has a great deal more time passing than the show. If they didn't want the show to drag on so long, then they could have written the ending without GRRM (which they likely will end up doing), or wait until he was finished to start filming (but too late now).



They already know GRRM's intended ending. Them picking up the show for an adaptation required him to disclose the entire intended story arc to the showrunners, because even when GoT started six years ago they were apparently worried he'd die before finishing the story.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> 1) Like what? All My Children?
> 
> 2) According to the wiki and various book fans, the time from the beginning of book 1 to the end of book 3 is ~3 years, so there already the TV show has an extra year of aging in there. Apparently books 4-5 are another 1 year.



I stand corrected.

This brings up an interesting point, however: if Westeros south of the Wall is about the size of Europe, and Essos about the size of Asia, how are people travelling back and forth so many times in such a small amount of time? For example, during the course of the novels,


Spoiler



Tyrion goes from King's landing to Winterfell, stays a while in Winterell, travels to Castle Black and stays there a while, back to Winterfell, has a custom saddle made, heads back toward King's Landing, but is intercepted and brought to the Vale, gets imprisoned there some time, gets involved in an uprising against Lysa Arryn, participates in battle between Rob Stark and Tywin Lannister (keep in mind enough time passed between where we started and this point that all out war has erupted), is injured, recovers, falls in love, is appointed Hand of the King, administers several political changes, gets married, participates in another battle from another war, is severely injured, recovers, is imprisoned again for some time, escapes, goes into hiding, travels across the entire continent of Essos (partly on foot, partly in a small boat), gets involved again in politics after rising once again from nothing, &#8230; all in 3 years?!


----------



## vividox

sakeido said:


> Mass Effect's ending was always going to suck because the writers ....ed up and made the Reapers too powerful and too numerous for them to be dealt with by anything except a deus ex machina. It had nothing to do with EA and everything to do with writing themselves into a corner.


Nope. Original plot created by Drew Karpyshyn (writer for ME1) was that Dark Matter was destroying the galaxy (this is alluded to very heavily in ME2 with the Tali sidequest where they are trying to figure out what is destroying the Quarian sun). The reapers were doing what they are doing in an effort to save the galaxy from dark matter destruction, so the end decision is whether you help the reapers by sacrificing all of humanity for the good of the galaxy or perpetuating the Promethean rebellion cycle after cycle until the Reapers could be taken down (or something like that, obviously all the final details weren't fleshed out). Point is, the ending was never supposed to be "take down the reapers", it was "hand protagonist an insane moral dilemma".


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^That would have been so much better. 

I'm going to give this season of GOT a miss. I hated so much of last season that I just don't enjoy it anymore. The future of the books is still very uncertain and getting more so everyday so thats not looking good either.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> This brings up an interesting point, however: if Westeros south of the Wall is about the size of Europe, and Essos about the size of Asia, how are people travelling back and forth so many times in such a small amount of time? For example, during the course of the novels,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Tyrion goes from King's landing to Winterfell, stays a while in Winterell, travels to Castle Black and stays there a while, back to Winterfell, has a custom saddle made, heads back toward King's Landing, but is intercepted and brought to the Vale, gets imprisoned there some time, gets involved in an uprising against Lysa Arryn, participates in battle between Rob Stark and Tywin Lannister (keep in mind enough time passed between where we started and this point that all out war has erupted), is injured, recovers, falls in love, is appointed Hand of the King, administers several political changes, gets married, participates in another battle from another war, is severely injured, recovers, is imprisoned again for some time, escapes, goes into hiding, travels across the entire continent of Essos (partly on foot, partly in a small boat), gets involved again in politics after rising once again from nothing,  all in 3 years?!



The show has never made any attempt to explain how people get to and fro, it's kind of a joke at this point. I guess they are teleporting around offscreen.


----------



## sakeido

vividox said:


> Nope. Original plot created by Drew Karpyshyn (writer for ME1) was that Dark Matter was destroying the galaxy (this is alluded to very heavily in ME2 with the Tali sidequest where they are trying to figure out what is destroying the Quarian sun). The reapers were doing what they are doing in an effort to save the galaxy from dark matter destruction, so the end decision is whether you help the reapers by sacrificing all of humanity for the good of the galaxy or perpetuating the Promethean rebellion cycle after cycle until the Reapers could be taken down (or something like that, obviously all the final details weren't fleshed out). Point is, the ending was never supposed to be "take down the reapers", it was "hand protagonist an insane moral dilemma".



That actually sounds a hell of a lot worse than the ending we did get so thank god they ditched that. I'm not sure if there is a catchy Latinate way to describe the bad guys revealing they are actually just tragically misunderstood and (presumably) offering to off themselves but this is really no better. The major problem with ME3's ending isn't even the ending itself, it was how abrupt it was with sketchy closure to the only plot arcs I cared about (my team's) which they went back and fixed with Citadel anyway..


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

vividox said:


> The entire Dorne storyline has been an abortion. We BOOK PEOPLE are so upset because the book Dorne plot is actually interesting. The show introduced a hacked version of it, recycled it down to "REVENGE" and then killed off all the interesting characters. It's mind-numbingly one-dimensional and, as you stated, the actresses / acting / filing / production in general has been several notches down from the rest of the series. It's just bad.



The book and the show are two different things. Apples and oranges.


----------



## vividox

sakeido said:


> That actually sounds a hell of a lot worse than the ending we did get so thank god they ditched that. I'm not sure if there is a catchy Latinate way to describe the bad guys revealing they are actually just tragically misunderstood and (presumably) offering to off themselves but this is really no better.


I'd argue that the reapers are billions of years old, so it's really not too much of a stretch to think we don't know everything about them or that they are misunderstood. I mean, Sovereign says as much the first time you interact with a reaper. You can boil anything down to a trope...


----------



## vividox

leftyguitarjoe said:


> The book and the show are two different things. Apples and oranges.


Not disagreeing with anything you're writing here. Dorne is still completely half-assed in the show.


----------



## bostjan

It already seems like it's been a while since the season premier, so I must have liked the episode more than I thought I did.



leftyguitarjoe said:


> The book and the show are two different things. Apples and oranges.



In this case, though, the apple is a fresh Red Delicious. Not bad, but not really good either. Yet, the orange is about three years old, hard as a rock, and growing at least three kinds of mould, with at least one of the moulds growing on the remains of a former mould.


----------



## mongey

bostjan said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> This brings up an interesting point, however: if Westeros south of the Wall is about the size of Europe, and Essos about the size of Asia, how are people travelling back and forth so many times in such a small amount of time? ]



I have thought this too but in a world of dragons, magic and white walkers I think a little leeway can be given .maybe they age slower ?


----------



## wankerness

Now that exciting stuff was set up this episode, next episode will probably be a bunch of Danaerys and Dorne! Everything in this episode was good (besides Winterfell, which I was neutral on, but that was the one big surprise) and I'm very interested in the continuation of all of these plot lines. Melisandre has always been my favorite, and it's weird to see her defeated like this. Davos is another favorite, as is redbeard dude whose name I always forget - not sure I buy the former's huge about-face on Melisandre, but hey, I like to see them together (and not in the context of that romance movie they did!). Tyrion is back to awesome. Kingsmoot could be good. I want zombie mountain to start stomping religious wackos like he did to that guy in the alley. Maybe Arya will actually do something that doesn't suck for the first time since season four.

Maybe they'll give us 15 minutes of Sam and Gilly next week, too! Urgh.


----------



## Xaios

Yup, that episode was good stuff.


----------



## mongey

Win.


----------



## extendedsolo

I really enjoyed this episode and pretty much agree with Gizmodo's take on the season so far. The headline says exactly what I was thinking and it's worth a read. 

Surpassing the Books May Be the Greatest Thing That Ever Happened to Game of Thrones

It's just moving so much faster now, instead of dragging along with one huge payoff here or there like last season with Hardhome. 

I was mildly concerned that this season would be terrible, and honestly the jury is still out, but the first two episodes are doing everything right. Moving the story forward is my biggest issue with many shows similar to GoT but they are finally doing it. I actually think that next season will be the last and then maybe a movie they've hinted about. There is no way they are going to just keep it going and I feel like what is taking place this season is the beginning of the "third act" if you will. Everything before this season comes into play and all of the decisions made previously will come back to haunt/help people, we are already seeing it. I could give several examples but I'm way too lazy right now.








bostjan said:


> It already seems like it's been a while since the season premier, so I must have liked the episode more than I thought I did.
> 
> 
> 
> In this case, though, the apple is a fresh Red Delicious. Not bad, but not really good either. Yet, the orange is about three years old, hard as a rock, and growing at least three kinds of mould, with at least one of the moulds growing on the remains of a former mould.



I've always found the book readers are pretty solidly in one of two camps; they've read the books and accept the show for what it is; a not exact retelling. They enjoy both for different reasons.

Then there are the other kind, somehow enjoyed the book and story and then decided to be smug about the show. Something like they read the book so their demands could be catered too best summarized in this smiley. 

Obviously there is a third group of people that have no interest in books or the show, or became disinterested, but geez i feel like the people on the internet who've read the books and liked them but hate the show are huge dorks. We get it, you can read.



wankerness said:


> The show has never made any attempt to explain how people get to and fro, it's kind of a joke at this point. I guess they are teleporting around offscreen.



I've always disliked when a critique focuses on something that isn't the main point of the show. The main point of the show is the interaction between characters and how they all tie together, not the timing of their journey and how it couldn't happen. It's a world with dragons in it. Dragons that breath fire. I'm not saying suspend all disbelief and not expect something, but this is a pretty weak critique to me in any show. Outside of this show, I know Neil Degrasse Tyson will critique the science of hollywood movies as possible/impossible and say why. I think his attempt is just like "Wow this is interesting" but some use it to try to be superior to others. Yes we get it Fast and the Furious isn't realistic. It's not supposed to be (not that I really enjoy movies like that). 

There are shows out there that already slow down the pacing by making the travel slow and those shows, while successful, can be very very boring (see:the walking dead). I mean even The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings really really dragged because they travel times were "more realistic". 

There are good critiques of this show but I don't feel like this is one of them.


----------



## Sumsar

^ Wanna know now how people get from A to B huh? Read the books! The last book had like 100 pages of Tyrion going / sailing somewhere, mostly spending the time drinking, puking and reflecting on stuff. It also had about 100 pages about Sam sailing somewhere, mostly spending the time worrying, puking and reflecting on stuff. I guess those sort of things just doesn't translate well into TV shows 

I just wacthed the last episode and I think it was pretty good 
Was I the only one who felt like the guy playing Brandon Stack was 10 years older since last we saw him?
Having read the book it is fun how they condense 100 pages and a pretty big story about the Iron isles into a 5 min segment, but again thats the premise 

I did not read the books or watch the series until around late 2014 I think. Up until that point I thought people where super annoying for always discussing the latest GoT episode and I was kinda shouting: "I DON*T CARE!!11!". 
Then I wacthed season 1 - 5 in like a month instead of doing my thesis and so I guess I was pretty hooked. Finished reading all the books about a month ago and here we are 
It's abit weird how the new series both covers new ground in terms of story yet also contains some parts thats from like the fourth or firth book, it's a mix of 'surprise I have no idea about how the story goes' and like 'oh I already know how this scene will end unless they altered it'.

But yeah I totally accept that at this point the show and the books are too very different things and I enjoy both for what they are


----------



## wankerness

The guy who plays Bran had that gigantic growth spurt between I think seasons 2 and 3 (or maybe it was 3 and 4??) and grew about a foot during the season break. It was pretty funny. He looks considerably older now, too, and he's only 17. The guy who plays Hodor must have cable assists or something to lift him.

In contrast, the girl who plays Arya has managed to hit 19 without looking any older than she did in season 1. Maybe she has some variant of asian woman aging syndrome.


----------



## mongey

wankerness said:


> Maybe Arya will actually do something that doesn't suck for the first time since season four.



while i agree with allot you said I think you're a hard man there. Her alone time with Meryn Trent was pretty awesome last season


----------



## wankerness

Terrible episode. I was hoping Arya would do something, but nope, just more getting smacked with a stick by that Michael Cera lookalike. And trying to elicit any sympathy or moral ambiguity relating to that sour faced creep Olly is just not happening, he's been about as likable as Joffrey for multiple seasons now.

Oh, and I can't wait for some more gratuitous torture scenes with Ramsey so we know how bad of a guy he is! Glad they brought back one of my favorite early characters for that likely privilege (Osha). On the other hand, this could turn out to be retroactively awesome if she ends up chopping off his dick and that whole thing ended up being a double-cross, so who knows.

Blurgh. I knew last week would get balanced out by something like this, I just underestimated the badness. That opening flashback sword fight was almost as cheap-looking as the infamous sand snake melee last year.


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Terrible episode. I was hoping Arya would do something, but nope, just more getting smacked with a stick by that Michael Cera lookalike. And trying to elicit any sympathy or moral ambiguity relating to that sour faced creep Olly is just not happening, he's been about as likable as Joffrey for multiple seasons now.
> 
> Oh, and I can't wait for some more gratuitous torture scenes with Ramsey so we know how bad of a guy he is! Glad they brought back one of my favorite early characters for that likely privilege (Osha). On the other hand, this could turn out to be retroactively awesome if she ends up chopping off his dick and that whole thing ended up being a double-cross, so who knows.
> 
> Blurgh. I knew last week would get balanced out by something like this, I just underestimated the badness. That opening flashback sword fight was almost as cheap-looking as the infamous sand snake melee last year.



I think you missed the point on a couple of those scenes. The Olly scene and Olly himself had nothing to do with his character, but rather with Jon Snow. It's obvious that he is a changed person with different motivations now and executing Olly is just part of his growth. I'm not sure the intention was to have any feelings about Olly after he stabbed Jon. 

I am curious to see where they take the Osha and Rickon with Ramsey. I'm reserving judgement

How the opening scene LOOKED is what you got out of it? Right, because Tower of Joy, I"m sure there is a just a Jazz Lounge at the top and nothing of consequence will be there. 

If there is a show where things are expected to happen every episode, this isn't it. There are shows like that out there. I think that it's a transitional episode and setting up for future plot points in the season. I find it hard to judge one episode by itself since really it's just an arbitrary end point of a small segment of a larger story. Really they could end it at any point and say "well this is a 15 minute episode and this one is a 2 hours" It's not like each episode is it's own entity. 

Although I know I'm overreacting to this single post since most of the other reactions to this episode have been overwhelmingly positive.


----------



## wankerness

extendedsolo said:


> I think you missed the point on a couple of those scenes. The Olly scene and Olly himself had nothing to do with his character, but rather with Jon Snow. It's obvious that he is a changed person with different motivations now and executing Olly is just part of his growth. I'm not sure the intention was to have any feelings about Olly after he stabbed Jon.



I dunno. It seemed like Jon was supposed to be all broken up about it, and it kept giving us long shots of Olly's face. Like, I get that Jon's supposed to feel so bad about it, but the audience by and large hated that little turd and thus has a hard time empathizing with Jon feeling conflicted about executing the little creep. I felt worse about the other three guys, tbh. That dick of a night's watch guy at least had integrity. I think they handled him well.



> I am curious to see where they take the Osha and Rickon with Ramsey. I'm reserving judgement



I sort of am too, I just had such a visceral reaction given EVERY SINGLE OTHER THING that has happened when anyone has been introduced to Ramsay through the course of this series. Maybe they'll finally break the pattern. I sure hope so. Given that talk from crew has said that there will be


Spoiler



a "battle of the bastards" big climactic thing between Jon Snow and Ramsay this season, I'm worried that they will give us 5 or so episodes of Osha and/or Rickon being raped/tortured/murdered while we wait for Jon to get there, because they don't tend to blow their budget in big battles till the last couple episodes of the season!





> How the opening scene LOOKED is what you got out of it? Right, because Tower of Joy, I"m sure there is a just a Jazz Lounge at the top and nothing of consequence will be there.



Yeah, how it looked was what I got out of it, since with the way they cut away from the flashback before any information of importance was conveyed meant it seemed it was just there for flash. It was a swordfight with zero tension (the only character involved we know is Ned Stark, who we knew couldn't die) that was there to slow down Ned's progress to rescue whatshername from the Tower of Joy, except they don't actually tell us what's going on, they just hint at it and go WHOOPS, WE CAN'T TELL YOU THAT YET!!!, meaning this scene ended up not really being anything other than a flashy swordfight. One that looked like it should have been on Xena! It gets bookreaders excited cause they know what's coming, but for anyone who doesn't it's kind of like "what was the point of that?" And really, it doesn't seem like there was one. What information did we get from that, other than "ned exaggerated when he told this story to his kids," which we won't get in the inevitable follow-up to that scene? I guess if the "Brann may be able to be audible to people in these flashbacks" ends up meaning something, which it might.



extendedsolo said:


> If there is a show where things are expected to happen every episode, this isn't it. There are shows like that out there. I think that it's a transitional episode and setting up for future plot points in the season. I find it hard to judge one episode by itself since really it's just an arbitrary end point of a small segment of a larger story. Really they could end it at any point and say "well this is a 15 minute episode and this one is a 2 hours" It's not like each episode is it's own entity.
> 
> Although I know I'm overreacting to this single post since most of the other reactions to this episode have been overwhelmingly positive.



The problem wasn't "nothing happened," it was "almost everything that happened was dumb." And yeah, reactions to this show are funny. 100% of people in some areas love it no matter what happens. 100% of people on the AVclub comments on the book readers section hate it no matter what happens. 100% of the internet erupts in a violent rage if anyone gets raped. Thus, I tend to just aim for the content of why people liked/disliked it. I find the information interesting sometimes.


----------



## extendedsolo

I guess my definition of "nothing happened" means that the events that transpired in the show aren't moving towards a definite end point. It may not be obvious right this instant, but it'll make sense in the end. Now if there is an issue with how they arrived at the end, that's a completely different topic. 

Going back to the tower of joy I think that non book readers are supposed to say "why is ned stark fighting a targaryean?" Also that his sister is in the tower. I"m pretty sure in the "previously on game of thrones" before the show it was covered why these two things are important. This scene right here is my issue with the "nothing happened it was boring" crowd. Yes, it seems that it's just a battle and left to question RIGHT NOW; what happened? I guarantee you when it's revealed what's in that tower it will change the entire feel of the show. It will be on par with the red wedding, Joffrey dying, and the white walker scene from last season. Most likely it will be the single most important piece of information up to that point in the entire series. But that has to wait and, we will just have to remember that it happened and just because it doesn't seem important now doesn't mean it isn't.

I'm not attack you personally, just that line of thinking. 

Also lets not bring AV club comments into this. Quite possibly one of the most painful reads on the internet of commentors who think they are witty/funny but in fact are painfully unfunny. 

I think really the only way to view if "nothing's happening" is to watch the series in it's entirety again after it's ended.


----------



## mongey

I enjoyed it. I think it's tough when your following one of the best episodes in the shows history .it's always going to feel like a slow down 

the 1 scene I didn't really like at all was Tyrion with grey worm and whatever her name is at the table . Felt like a labored attempt to inject some Tyrion humor when they could've been doing better stuff with other characters


----------



## sakeido

I thought the Tyrion scene was mostly there to show how dour Grey Worm and Missandei were, or that despite his best efforts Tyrion still can't really understand or interact well with commoners


----------



## TGOD

No matter how boring the episode may have been (opinion-wise) - Tormund delivered on one of the funniest lines uttered in the entire series.



Spoiler



Jon: I'm not a god

Tormund: I know that. I saw your pecker. What kind of god would have a pecker that small?


----------



## wankerness

Why was that a spoiler? 

I did sorta like the opening. I liked his interactions with people, particularly that one. I was disappointed that he seemed to come out much the same as he was before he died, I was sorta hoping he'd be at least a little bit messed up, considering the condition of Khal Drogo or Zombie Mountain, since he'd been sitting around for way, way longer than that flamesword bandit guy. I know, I know, different methods and all that, but to have him instantly get his simpering Jon Snow face and voice back immediately was a bit of a letdown.


----------



## TGOD

wankerness said:


> Why was that a spoiler?
> .



Because of one of the guys that was talking


Spoiler



Who, at the end of a former season, was not able to speak so well



You never know what people perusing the thread have seen yet.


----------



## wankerness

If anyone doesn't know that yet but is clicking on this thread, they richly deserve it! Touching a dedicated discussion thread for a TV show that's aired when you care about spoilers is like putting your hand in a fire to see if it's hot.

I get it with movies since you actually have to go see those and a lot of people don't have the chance to do so immediately, but this thread or the Walking Dead one? Naw!


----------



## TGOD

wankerness said:


> If anyone doesn't know that yet but is clicking on this thread, they richly deserve it! Touching a dedicated discussion thread for a TV show that's aired when you care about spoilers is like putting your hand in a fire to see if it's hot.
> 
> I get it with movies since you actually have to go see those and a lot of people don't have the chance to do so immediately, but this thread or the Walking Dead one? Naw!



I'm just being overly-sensitive about it because I actually missed the first two episodes of season 6 and had them spoiled all over Facebook.

No biggie, it is a GoT thread after all.


----------



## Xaios

I quite liked it to be honest. 

Regarding the sword fight, it doesn't really bother me. The book basically mentioned that Arthur Dayne was an absolute god with a sword, so considering that most of the combat in this show has been relatively grounded, it's refreshing to see one in which someone who was legendary for his abilities be able to fight in a way that is completely next-level.


----------



## Maybrick

Trying my hardest to not give any spoilers to those who haven't watched the latest episode (3), I'm really glad with the decision was made on Thorne and the other 3.

I had a terrible feeling they'd be forgiven.


----------



## SD83

Finally started watching season 2(I don't really mind the spoilers + have read the books and from what I heard so far it's not that far off)... yes, the story is good, there are cool characters, interesting places, but the first episodes on that season were basically just slaughter, sex and drinking, interrupted by a few minutes of actual plot every now and then. Not that I necessarily mind any of them, and some other episodes definitly make up for that, but it felt unnecessary and pointless in the book and even more so in the series (at least there they got rid of whole pages just describing foods for the feast, listing all the guests, their houses, sisters, banners, dogs, the houses of their dogs and their banners etc. Oh, and about 400 lines describing Cerseis dress every other chapter). Still, I'm really looking forward to how they did some of the events coming...


----------



## extendedsolo

sakeido said:


> I thought the Tyrion scene was mostly there to show how dour Grey Worm and Missandei were, or that despite his best efforts Tyrion still can't really understand or interact well with commoners



I just thought it went to show that he couldn't lead in the same way as Daenerys. Yes he does have a good mind and can lead certain types, but not the unsullied. He's out of his league and it shows that she is still needed and will be reintroduced back to Mereen.



Maybrick said:


> Trying my hardest to not give any spoilers to those who haven't watched the latest episode (3), I'm really glad with the decision was made on Thorne and the other 3.
> 
> I had a terrible feeling they'd be forgiven.



The old Jon Snow would've, the new Jon Snow is much different after trying to "do the right thing" and having it blow up in his face.



TGOD said:


> I'm just being overly-sensitive about it because I actually missed the first two episodes of season 6 and had them spoiled all over Facebook.
> 
> No biggie, it is a GoT thread after all.



Yeah I'm not spoilering anything other than if some massive event happens. Even then, why would anyone be in this thread unless they watch the show?


----------



## vividox

I thought that was a fantastic episode, well paced, lots of threads moving, no Dorne. Last season seemed rushed and parts of it were legitimately awful, this season so far seems to feel a lot more like S1 and S2 to me.

I think a lot of people expect something huge and mind-blowing to happen every single episode now. Not every episode is going to be a _Rains of Castamere_ or a _Hardhome_. Those kinds of episodes need context and positioning.

And only on _Game of Thrones_ would viewers call the first half of the Tower of Joy scene, Bran potentially interacting with the past, Arya getting her sight back, the Umbers joining the Boltons, Osha and Rickon being held captive by Ramsay, Olly and Alister being hung for treason, and Jon forsaking the Night's Watch... "nothing".


----------



## AliceLG

vividox said:


> And only on _Game of Thrones_ would viewers call the first half of the Tower of Joy scene, Bran potentially interacting with the past, Arya getting her sight back, the Umbers joining the Boltons, Osha and Rickon being held captive by Ramsay, Olly and Alister being hung for treason, and Jon forsaking the Night's Watch... "nothing".


----------



## wankerness

Only one guy said that, and he really liked the episode.


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> Only one guy said that, and he really liked the episode.


On here, yeah. Between Twitter, Facebook, several other forums, etc. I've seen the comment a lot.


----------



## bostjan

I thought the last episode was pretty incredible. Tons of stuff moving right along, and only one plot hole.



Spoiler



If Melisandre can revive the dead, why would she not use that power to revive Stannis, since Stannis was her hero?! Before you say approaching Ramsay's territory is too dangerous, remember she also has all sorts of other powers to sneak around undetected and get into places


----------



## wankerness

Cause she realized he was not the prophesied one or whatever. She said that a couple times. That's why she was so down on herself.


----------



## TGOD

bostjan said:


> I thought the last episode was pretty incredible. Tons of stuff moving right along, and only one plot hole.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If Melisandre can revive the dead, why would she not use that power to revive Stannis, since Stannis was her hero?! Before you say approaching Ramsay's territory is too dangerous, remember she also has all sorts of other powers to sneak around undetected and get into places





Spoiler



I'd honestly be interested in how that resurrection would have gone, since Stannis' head was removed from his body


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> I thought the last episode was pretty incredible. Tons of stuff moving right along, and only one plot hole.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If Melisandre can revive the dead, why would she not use that power to revive Stannis, since Stannis was her hero?! Before you say approaching Ramsay's territory is too dangerous, remember she also has all sorts of other powers to sneak around undetected and get into places





Spoiler



1) She didn't know she could do it. She mentioned she'd never done anything like that to Davos, who had to beg her to try on Jon.
2) She had already abandoned Stannis as a lost cause. By the time he died, she wasn't anywhere near him.
3) And as TGOD mentioned, who knows what revival is like, or if it's even possible, if you're missing your head.


----------



## extendedsolo

vividox said:


> On here, yeah. Between Twitter, Facebook, several other forums, etc. I've seen the comment a lot.



I've said it to my wife multiple times and maybe in this thread, but I really think that this show is not supposed to be as popular as it is. The problem is that it really isn't for everyone, but sometimes viewers will watch it because everyone else is. Not to say it needs to be some niche show only very select people watch, because I think it can cast a wide net, but I'm thinking of the people who are ONLY interested in what happens immediately. Wait until The Dark Tower comes out along with Wheel of Time, whooooo boy it's going to be a clusterf*** of bad opinions. This is the price that is paid for nerds finally "winning".

It's like when Serial was over and people were expecting some grand conclusion about whether Adnan was exonerated, but that missed the entire point of the podcast.


----------



## wankerness

Have you followed anything about the Dark Tower movie? It's clearly going to be nothing like the books at all, in a misguided attempt to cater to the mainstream. It sounds like a total disaster, but I don't think it's going to get complaints remotely related to those that a faithful adaptation of the books would get!


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Have you followed anything about the Dark Tower movie? It's clearly going to be nothing like the books at all, in a misguided attempt to cater to the mainstream. It sounds like a total disaster, but I don't think it's going to get complaints remotely related to those that a faithful adaptation of the books would get!



I haven't been! I didn't realize that it wasn't going to be faithful to the books. I shouldn't be surprised since I always go back to I Am Legend's ending. It pretty much makes no sense after knowing the original ending.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> Have you followed anything about the Dark Tower movie? It's clearly going to be nothing like the books at all, in a misguided attempt to cater to the mainstream. It sounds like a total disaster, but I don't think it's going to get complaints remotely related to those that a faithful adaptation of the books would get!



I've been following the Dark Tower movie news for a few years and I haven't seen anything saying it's not going to be faithful to the books? Sure, Roland is black now but that has no bearing on the character, and Matthew McConaughey is the Man in Black but aside from that I can't recall anything that says "we're diverting from the book" (which also wouldn't carry much weight because not many people have read them)


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I've been following the Dark Tower movie news for a few years and I haven't seen anything saying it's not going to be faithful to the books? Sure, Roland is black now but that has no bearing on the character, and Matthew McConaughey is the Man in Black but aside from that I can't recall anything that says "we're diverting from the book" (which also wouldn't carry much weight because not many people have read them)



Read the last few news articles on the AVclub. 

· The A.V. Club

They have cast some characters that weren't even in the first books (ex, Jackie Earle Haley is Sayre) and/or were extremely minor characters in the books which show they're either totally changing up the plot or mashing the later books together with the first one in some odd way. The main writer is also the guy who wrote such classics as Batman and Robin, Lost In Space, I Robot, the Da Vinci Code movies, Divergent: Insurgent, and I am Legend.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> Have you followed anything about the Dark Tower movie? It's clearly going to be nothing like the books at all, in a misguided attempt to cater to the mainstream. It sounds like a total disaster, but I don't think it's going to get complaints remotely related to those that a faithful adaptation of the books would get!



Great... 

Back to GoT (HBO) - Last episode, I was like "I sure hope we see more Sam." This episode we saw some Sam, although it was the least eventful scene. This upcoming episode, I'm hoping for a little White Walker action. I'm loving the way the show is showing us snippets of the past, so I hope to get another of those. Arthur Dayne was a total badass.


----------



## Maybrick

I'm looking forward to the next episode and seeing Littlefinger. God damn I've missed him


----------



## flexkill

Maybrick said:


> I'm looking forward to the next episode and seeing Littlefinger. God damn I've missed him


----------



## mongey

That was good


----------



## extendedsolo

Such a fantastic episode last night. Moving the plot forward but not too quickly so that it feels rushed. 

I'm glad I'm not binge watching, but rather catch the 1 hour show every week. Sometimes I feel like when I do binge watch, I miss certain things because there is so much information. Can't wait until next week when we finally see some more white walkers.


----------



## wankerness

Well, glad my fears about Osha were not misplaced. That was even more garbage than I had worried. Reminded me of the Jimmy Olsen "FUN CAMEO" in BvS! I guess the most that can be said was at least they disposed of her too unceremoniously to even include any rape or torture.

Rest of the episode was mostly fine, not much to say there. One thing I particularly liked was that Sansa showed up before Jon left, I was worried it would be another one of those "JON IS IN ANOTHER CASTLE" scenes the show's been doing for the last few years whenever Starks might unite. Their scenes were pretty good.

I did laugh a lot when the show was trying to create an aura of menace and power with Daenerys awkwardly tipping over braziers while blasting the big clunky theme of death they played when she freed the slaves. Emilia Clarke in that scene was possibly even less intimidating than the average appearance of the sand snakes!


----------



## OmegaSlayer

I'm still at S06E02, still...Ramsay.
He's so "extreme" that it's ineffective.
The author pushed the character so much that the watcher doesn't see him cruel, but more like a tard that doesn't even understand what he does.
He doesn't shock anyone...because people in front of the screen already knows that he will do something goofily excessive and extreme that manages to not even being gross.
He isn't dangerous, he doesn't make me feel compassionate...he's just stupid to the point that I don't even remember his name and I had to look for it to write this post.


----------



## Fraz666

I remember Ramsey 'cause the actor looks like Jason Newsted 
(and he was good on Misfits, the series)


----------



## Maybrick

wankerness said:


> One thing I particularly liked was that Sansa showed up before Jon left, I was worried it would be another one of those "JON IS IN ANOTHER CASTLE" scenes the show's been doing for the last few years whenever Starks might unite. Their scenes were pretty good.



This was my main worry for the episode too.


----------



## cemges

Oh man the 5th episode!


----------



## wankerness

I'm wondering what they'll focus on the next couple episodes since


Spoiler



the battle of the bastards isn't supposed to be till episode 9.


 I kind of hope we just don't get any ramsay scenes till then. I'm fairly interested in most of the plots now, as long as we don't see frickin Dorne again.


----------



## big_aug

Did they really have to go all time travel on us? I mean, really?


----------



## wankerness

I dunno. I assume that will become more relevant later, or something. In this use it was weird but I didn't dislike it. Similar to the Hodor reveal. The action was fairly exciting and I'm glad we don't have any more of those weird fairy people that spoke with regular human voices. I dunno how I feel about them being responsible for the white walkers, but I guess that probably won't end up getting mentioned again and thus doesn't hurt anything either. 

Pretty good episode overall, and I think most people will be happy with it cause it looked really expensive and had lots of zombies! I abandoned Walking Dead years ago so I sort of enjoy zombies again.

I read the fan theory that hold the door = hodor last week and that was how he'd gotten to that state of mind and dismissed it as hilarious, but it wasn't hilarious here.


----------



## big_aug

That's what I mean. The hold the door thing leading to Hodor. The whole time travel/ripple stuff. Looking into the past is one thing. Having this paradox where yelling hold the door lead to Hodor which lead to Hodor actually being at the door to hold it. 

Doesn't really fit Game of Thrones. Kind of jumping the shark here. I liked the episode, but man.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

I nearly cried. I don't think it's jumping the shark at all. A major point of GoT is that there are powers at play at a supernatural level and some of the characters are trying to deal with that or avoid it. It's not outside of the realm of possibility for GoT, it's just another untapped thing that's existed for forever that nobody in Westeros seemed to want to (or was able to) pay attention to.

Overall good episode. Really excited to see how Sansa develops as well as Arya. I think she's going to poison someone other than her assignment, who knows.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, I dunno, Arya's plot is starting to reek of Batman Begins at this point. At least only a little bit of her time in the episode was spent getting hit with sticks by Michael Cera. Soon maybe they can get rid of that character and her offensive sandals.


----------



## big_aug

UnattendedGolfcart said:


> I nearly cried. I don't think it's jumping the shark at all. A major point of GoT is that there are powers at play at a supernatural level and some of the characters are trying to deal with that or avoid it. It's not outside of the realm of possibility for GoT, it's just another untapped thing that's existed for forever that nobody in Westeros seemed to want to (or was able to) pay attention to.
> 
> Overall good episode. Really excited to see how Sansa develops as well as Arya. I think she's going to poison someone other than her assignment, who knows.



There's a pretty big difference between supernatural and time travel.


----------



## cemges

Hey guess who cut Varys' dinklage for fate


----------



## Xaios

Lovely episode. The ending was handled really well. Even though the battle at Hardhome was more visceral, the sense of panic and terror at the end of this episode was really tangible, especially from Meera.

I also had a thought. Given that it's now just Bran and Meera lost in the north, it seems like this would be a good time to introduce a character from the books that the show hasn't really touched...



Spoiler



Coldhands


----------



## mongey

I love the show and am really digging this season but not sure I buy the hodor tie in. 

Need to think on it and rewatch in a day or 2


----------



## extendedsolo

I'm not spoilering anything since I"m assuming anyone reading this thread is keeping up with the show.

I find it hilarious that the big thing everyone is talking about today is the Hodor death. Yeah it closes that characters arc and they give you the idea that the past can be altered to affect the present which I mean whatever.

But yeah The Night's King is totally a Stark and no one is mentioning it because it wasn't laid out exactly for them.



mongey said:


> I love the show and am really digging this season but not sure I buy the hodor tie in.
> 
> Need to think on it and rewatch in a day or 2



That came form GRRM himself actually.

http://kotaku.com/someone-basically-guessed-tonights-game-of-thrones-twis-1778125312



big_aug said:


> That's what I mean. The hold the door thing leading to Hodor. The whole time travel/ripple stuff. Looking into the past is one thing. Having this paradox where yelling hold the door lead to Hodor which lead to Hodor actually being at the door to hold it.
> 
> Doesn't really fit Game of Thrones. Kind of jumping the shark here. I liked the episode, but man.



No, jumping the shark would be a major deviation from the story/plot flow in order to gain viewers or keep them happy by the characters doing something out of character. Like why The Walking Dead will never kill Darryl. 

Also it wasn't time travel.


----------



## bostjan

^ Assuming everyone is keeping up with a show is what leads to people giving out spoilers, most of the time 

^ It takes 3-4 seconds to type out spoiler tags 

Anyway, that was the best episode of the season, IMO. I really don't mind the Arya stuff, the Tormund/Brienne thing is appropriately funny, and I thought the Danerys scene was well done enough to move things right along.



Spoiler



So what skill is required to use the Weirwood tree to go back to the past without running into White Walkers? How did the Three Eyed Raven learn how not to run into White Walkers? He was completely defenseless during most of his existence, whereas Bran had training from him. Also, if the White Walkers could see Bran in the past/visions, and the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest, then why didn't the Children of the Forest see Bran when he was with them?! And if he can warg whilst greenseeing, why not have him greensee into a safe place, then warg into a passing-by eagle or something to see what was going on from an even safer place? And if that creates so many paradoxes, then why wouldn't the Three Eyed Raven just tell Bran what he needed to know?


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> ^ Assuming everyone is keeping up with a show is what leads to people giving out spoilers, most of the time
> 
> ^ It takes 3-4 seconds to type out spoiler tags
> 
> Anyway, that was the best episode of the season, IMO. I really don't mind the Arya stuff, the Tormund/Brienne thing is appropriately funny, and I thought the Danerys scene was well done enough to move things right along.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So what skill is required to use the Weirwood tree to go back to the past without running into White Walkers? How did the Three Eyed Raven learn how not to run into White Walkers? He was completely defenseless during most of his existence, whereas Bran had training from him. Also, if the White Walkers could see Bran in the past/visions, and the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest, then why didn't the Children of the Forest see Bran when he was with them?! And if he can warg whilst greenseeing, why not have him greensee into a safe place, then warg into a passing-by eagle or something to see what was going on from an even safer place? And if that creates so many paradoxes, then why wouldn't the Three Eyed Raven just tell Bran what he needed to know?



As far as your spoiler goes. Questions like these are exactly why I'm not judging the show/story being good or bad until we reach the final resolution. Then I can look back and pick it apart, but it's obvious that they will reveal certain answers and this question may be answered and may not be answered. 

Also it takes zero seconds to just not read the thread if you haven't been keeping up on the show.


----------



## big_aug

extendedsolo said:


> I'm not spoilering anything since I"m assuming anyone reading this thread is keeping up with the show.
> 
> I find it hilarious that the big thing everyone is talking about today is the Hodor death. Yeah it closes that characters arc and they give you the idea that the past can be altered to affect the present which I mean whatever.
> 
> But yeah The Night's King is totally a Stark and no one is mentioning it because it wasn't laid out exactly for them.
> 
> 
> 
> That came form GRRM himself actually.
> 
> Someone Basically Guessed Tonight&#39;s Game of Thrones Ending To George RR Martin In 2014
> 
> 
> 
> No, jumping the shark would be a major deviation from the story/plot flow in order to gain viewers or keep them happy by the characters doing something out of character. Like why The Walking Dead will never kill Darryl.
> 
> Also it wasn't time travel.




It was absolutely time travel. He traveled to the past and his presence there altered it. Its an unresolvable paradox now which always happens with time travel. I love me some good time travel stuff, but this was just dumb. They couldn't come up with a good explanation so they created this mess and then killed Hodor off to close it out.

I love the show and the episode, but this part was awful.


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

The Hodor thing was brilliant and heartbreaking. Holy crap.


----------



## sakeido

big_aug said:


> It was absolutely time travel. He traveled to the past and his presence there altered it. Its an unresolvable paradox now which always happens with time travel. I love me some good time travel stuff, but this was just dumb. They couldn't come up with a good explanation so they created this mess and then killed Hodor off to close it out.
> 
> I love the show and the episode, but this part was awful.



you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

Xaios said:


> Lovely episode. The ending was handled really well. Even though the battle at Hardhome was more visceral, the sense of panic and terror at the end of this episode was really tangible, especially from Meera.
> 
> I also had a thought. Given that it's now just Bran and Meera lost in the north, it seems like this would be a good time to introduce a character from the books that the show hasn't really touched...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Coldhands



That's my guess as to what will happen on the next episode based on the "Next Week on Game of Thrones" clip



Spoiler



I didn't read the books but I've googled Coldhands and Benjen before, and based on the clip for next week Bran and Meera are desperately trying to outrun the White Walkers immediately following what happened. My guess is that there simply has to be some sort of deus ex machina at that moment (like that happened when Brienne and Podrick saved Sansa and Theon earlier) and Coldhands or Benjen would make perfect sense for this. Bran basically has nothing left beyond Meera so I think he's hit his lowest point of the season, so hopefully Coldhands or Benjen or SOMEBODY will come to give him more information and inspiration to become more powerful.


----------



## Simic

Hodor thing aside - is anyone else excited about the fact that the Greyjoys are getting their own arc this season? I always felt that they could include their house a bit more in the show and now they did


----------



## Exodus5

Anybody else losing interest in Danerys? I mean she never really does anything but not get burned or be saved by something outside her control. 
And why did a room full of strong warriors become the keystone cops because of a fire? They tried to open the door (blocked) ok, but the rest of the hut was made of straw. They can't break through straw? 
The Hodor thing was clever, but sad.
I THINK I know how this will play out but, if it is like I think, eventually Jon Snow will have to face his Aunt for the throne. That is the part I want to see.


----------



## bostjan

sakeido said:


> you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?



Yeah, they totally broke my suspension of disbelief when a character time travelled, instead of dealing directly with the zombies and magical ice skeleton sorcerer warrior beings to help the magical fairy people so that they could all live long enough for the dragons to come and rescue them so that either the girl whose skin is miraculously unburnable or the guy who was brought back from the dead can finally rule in peace. 



Exodus5 said:


> Anybody else losing interest in Danerys? I mean she never really does anything but not get burned or be saved by something outside her control.
> And why did a room full of strong warriors become the keystone cops because of a fire? They tried to open the door (blocked) ok, but the rest of the hut was made of straw. They can't break through straw?
> The Hodor thing was clever, but sad.
> I THINK I know how this will play out but, if it is like I think, eventually Jon Snow will have to face his Aunt for the throne. That is the part I want to see.



That's what happens when you never hear the parable of the three little pigs as a little kid. If those Khals recalled the big bad wolf, they could still be alive.

That's also the thing with Danerys. Most of her storyline is boring. Parts of it get exciting, but a lot of it boils down to being lost in the wilderness, or playing politics.


----------



## big_aug

sakeido said:


> you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?



And it pretty much never works and doesn't work here. That's what I'm saying. Bran being there at the tree creates Hodor. And yet Hodor is the one who got Bran there to create himself. Its completely broken. Its not even passable. I would have preferred if we just never learned his origin.


----------



## sakeido

big_aug said:


> And it pretty much never works and doesn't work here. That's what I'm saying. Bran being there at the tree creates Hodor. And yet Hodor is the one who got Bran there to create himself. Its completely broken. Its not even passable. I would have preferred if we just never learned his origin.



ehh the stable time loop is one of the better ways to use time travel, imo. prefer that over multi-verses and whatever they had going in Terminator and that kind of thing. 

about the only fictional show that really used time travel in a good way is Steins;gate and in that show, mostly it was because time travel just bred tragedy.. just like the moment in the last episode did for GoT.


----------



## mongey

big_aug said:


> And it pretty much never works and doesn't work here. That's what I'm saying. Bran being there at the tree creates Hodor. And yet Hodor is the one who got Bran there to create himself. Its completely broken. Its not even passable. I would have preferred if we just never learned his origin.



I'm with you on that one. My wife really liked it but I just find it a bit thin and forced as a twist


----------



## wankerness

This isn't nitpicking, I'm just letting it slide, but to those that DO nitpick these things: exactly what the heck happened here? 

1) Spirit-Bran is in his vision of the past. 
2) While there, he hears the present yelling at him, but no one else in the past can hear this.
3) While still there, he mind controls Hodor's body in the present. No one in the past is at all aware of this.
4) He commands Hodor to HOLD THE DOOR, still in the present. All of a sudden past vision Hodor spazzes out as if Bran had MC'd him, even though no on else in this past vision had any interaction whatsoever with Spirit-Bran, and apparently no one in these visions is in any way able to interact with the person peeking in on them (besides the Night King).

So...if you MC someone that is IN THE PRESENT, but WHILE you are in a vision, while ALSO being in the same vicinity as their past self is IN YOUR VISION, their past self will get totally f'd up? That makes all the hoops they jumped through in the later bad Terminator movies sound coherent by comparison!

Sorry about all the "MC" abbreviations, I played a priest in World of Warcraft for too long and it's still automatic


----------



## brutalwizard

I Got some Weapons grade, spoilers for ya.
PLEASE DON'T READ THIS, and complain cause warned you guys.

Only posting a few that are more relevant to what we have already seen.

These all come from the TRUEDE Leaks, Which have thus far been 100% accurate. 



Spoiler



Benjen briefly returns to save bran and meera

Arya doesn't kill the actress, is gonna get waif'ed on, waif gets #rekt

Tower of joy never 100% says if R+L=J just alludes to it more




.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

wankerness said:


> This isn't nitpicking, I'm just letting it slide, but to those that DO nitpick these things: exactly what the heck happened here?
> 
> Sorry about all the "MC" abbreviations, I played a priest in World of Warcraft for too long and it's still automatic



Here's my take, I might be wrong, this is just how I kind of interpreted it:

- Present Bran mind controls Hodor. Gives him one command, the command Meera is shouting: "Hold the door." It's the only thing that mind-controlled Hodor is capable of thinking of.

- Vision Bran sees Wyllis, and I'm not sure but it almost seems like Wyllis sees him. He might be able to see Bran because he, as Hodor, is being mind controlled by him. Link between Wyllis and Bran established.

- If Wyllis sees and comprehends Vision Bran, and therefore can also comprehend his and Meera's order, then EVEN THOUGH HE'S IN THE PAST Wyllis' brain is still controlled by Bran. If not, then idk.

- This causes Wyllis' brain to fracture because he is in zero control of his body or brain in one time instance (Hodor) but is supposedly in control of his body and brain in another time instance (Wyllis) AT THE SAME TIME.

- Wyllis has a seizure-stroke-brain-fracture because of a paradox that he cannot be free-willed and mind-controlled at the same time.

- Bran creates Hodor, we all cry


----------



## wankerness

Well, congrats, you came up with an even crazier theory than I thought of. I wonder if they'll explain it later or if this is a LOST sort of moment that will never make sense.

Nice future episode spoilers, none of them are particularly exciting, so what I'm really curious about is if now that Brienne is headed to riverrun


Spoiler



if now Stoneheart will finally show up and kill her.


 It might never happen! But, now would be the time for it.


----------



## Fraz666

Exodus5 said:


> Anybody else losing interest in Danerys?


me, from day1

my 0,02$ about the last episode:
1) boobs
2) I liked the present/past thing, I hope something else will be revealed about it
3) boobs!


----------



## vividox

big_aug said:


> It was absolutely time travel. He traveled to the past and his presence there altered it. Its an unresolvable paradox now which always happens with time travel. I love me some good time travel stuff, but this was just dumb. They couldn't come up with a good explanation so they created this mess and then killed Hodor off to close it out.
> 
> I love the show and the episode, but this part was awful.


Is this the reason some people have a complete aversion to time travel of any kind? Because it creates paradoxes?

Time travel does not necessarily imply a paradox. From everything I've seen, GoT follows the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle of time travel - that is to say, it is impossible to "change" the past or "change" the future, if you go back in time and affect something, it's because you already affected it in the past. ASOIAF (the books, not the show) has already stated that Weirwoods don't experience time like humans do, they experience every time at once. That implies something like the NSCP must be true. It's also pretty closely related to the concept of destiny. If everything is predetermined and human's existence is simply a revelation of those predetermined events through the perception of time, time-traveling paradoxes simply don't exist.

Sorry to geek out on everyone, but time travel, when done right, is awesome.


----------



## vividox

sakeido said:


> you know time travel is not actually a thing and any show that uses it invents their own rules for it, right?


And when people who think this write scripts for movies that use time travel, that's when you get really sloppy, really crappy time-travel mechanics.


----------



## bostjan

I thought the Hodor thing was clear, or more descriptively, the intent of it seemed clear to me.

Bran isn't just observing the past, he's in the past. They already established that when he was in the past, he could interact to a small extent with the past if he became too emotional, or when White Walkers are involved, which might have more to it than we've been led to believe thus far.

When he's greenseeing, he's not 100% in the past, but still has a physical and some mental connection to the present.

So he's in the past, observing "who-cares-what," and the White Walkers come to kill him (I do think this is dumb on the characters' parts, since, well, they knew the White Walkers were coming for them already and did literally nothing at all about it, when they had time to leave), anyway, he's in the past with Wyllis, and in the present with Hodor. His connection to the present is where he's interrupted by Meera, which distracts him from the past, but he's unable to disconnect entirely from it. He knows past Wyllis is the same as present Hodor, and knows he has to warg into Hodor in order to save everyone, but it's complicated, since he's in the past. Some of his present warging spills over into the past, since Wyllis is Hodor, and the powerful emotional connection to what is going on, all causes Wyllis's mind to shortcircuit, causing Hodor to be Hodor.

I know it's a time loop. If Hodor didn't exist, then who would have brought Bran to the North? Right? Well, Wyllis seemed to be a friend of the Starks, and he would have still been Wyllis, so maybe Wyllis would have gotten him there just the same, but with a different story. But there are also the problems that existed in the moment that, well, Bran would not have tried warging into Wyllis if Hodor didn't exist. Say, alternately, Wyllis ended up being a powerful and fierce fighter and got Bran to the Three Eyed Raven, then Wyllis would have been able to get Bran out and hold the door without the command, or, more paradoxically yet, been able to respond more quickly and got Bran out of there fast enough that he could have barricaded the door instead of holding it tight.

So, you can look at it as "this was presented, and on the surface it makes sense," or, you can look at it as "this is what was presented, but deeper down, the motivations for it to get to that point do not add up." The former is what we usually have to do with fiction at any rate, and the latter could be explained by hidden variables, or whatever, that may or may not be revealed later. Either way, it's a paradox, but not a trivial one either way.

I find it interesting how the show has been very shy about the supernatural stuff, except a sprinkle here and there, like Melissandre and Stannis's shadow creature, Beric's resurrection, the Dragons, etc., but, started out with White Walkers and wights, and now seems to have taken a turn where magic is happening every episode.


----------



## wankerness

I have zero problem whatsoever with the "paradox" of it and don't find that confusing (the show seems to be going with "all events have already happened," and the only reason he was able to "affect the future" was that he already had, making this a clean loop), I just don't understand the mechanics of present hodor being warged by bran in the past and this somehow messing up young hodor. If they'd like, had him warg young hodor and that caused present hodor to also be warged, I'd at least get what happened! How it went down is just some kind of bizarre accident that may be explained at a later date but is impossible to be fully understood given the information presented in the episode.







Excuse this guy's use of "retard," I know that offends some people, but I liked the general idea of this post!


----------



## brutalwizard

More super leak stuff tread carefully

Regarding wankerness on dat


Spoiler



brienanne/stoneheart post





Spoiler



Brieanne does go with pod, Bron's chillen there in jaimes camp who is there to take back rivverdip. Edmure tully surrenders, but blackfish starts up a fight.

Stoneheart, ain't comming ;(


 [/QUOTE]


----------



## mongey

watched it again last night . there's allot about the Hodor thing that doesn't gel with me . but I'm not going to pick at it too hard as it may get a better explanation later, but I doubt it

I'm willing to just let them have that one


----------



## wankerness

Good article about the Hodor thing from a book AND show fan:

GAME OF THRONES Had Its Greatest Revelation In THE DOOR | Birth.Movies.Death.

He seems to think it was clear that Bran warged present Hodor by warging past Hodor. Maybe that is what happened, I'd have to watch it again. If that WAS what happened, I think they should have made it clearer?


----------



## SD83

Simic said:


> Hodor thing aside - is anyone else excited about the fact that the Greyjoys are getting their own arc this season? I always felt that they could include their house a bit more in the show and now they did



If they kept the ironborn a bit closer to the book and we had Victarion, then yes. As it is, Theon and Yara, yes, the rest of them can go drown (and they should, assuming they probably have a few hundred, maybe some thousand fighters at best and not enough trees to build a proper bonfire on all the Iron Islands.)
I don't understand all the hate for Dorne. They cut the idiot prince who went to Daenaerys and there was some other stuff in the last book, but I found Arya a lot more boring, even though her story is still a lot less boring than it was in the books (I have to reread them again. Got bored of pages full of names, banners, dresses and feasts in the third and never fully recovered  ).



Spoiler



Am I the only one who finds zombies absolutly ridiculous, especially when they appear as a cross-breed between half eaten LotR-orcs and xenomorphs with leprosy. That might be the reason why I didn't care that much for Hodors death. Yes, nice simpleton, hero and all. Summers death hurt a bit, but to be honest, I skipped half of Brans parts in the books and I would have in the series. I'd rather watch Bronn sing to his Sandsnake for two full episodes than another Bran scene... 
And while I'm at it, the dragons have become the single biggest dissappointment in GoT for me. Yes, we get a really brief moment of Drogon ex machina, and then he's gone again (Tyrion opening their chains was kinda nice though). Most of the time, they have absolutly no part in the story, besides lending Daenaerys her name, who apparently can't do anything on her own except setting things on fire. If there was a price for being the most incompetent woman in the realms of men, it must be decided between Sansa & Daenaerys. 
They ran a bit out of big suprises. They had little ones (Ser Barristans death, to me maybe the saddest moment in the series), but big ones?


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> He seems to think it was clear that Bran warged present Hodor by warging past Hodor. Maybe that is what happened, I'd have to watch it again. If that WAS what happened, I think they should have made it clearer?



That's definitely what I think happened. I don't think it was unclear.

While Bran is in his vision of the past, he can hear Meera shouting at him to warg Hodor, TER turns to him and says "do as your friend says" and then in the vision he Wargs Hodor (past Hodor's eyes roll back like he's warged and then present Hodor springs to action).

I've seen a lot of weird interpretations of what people think happened, but that to me is pretty clear.


----------



## wankerness

vividox said:


> That's definitely what I think happened. I don't think it was unclear.
> 
> While Bran is in his vision of the past, he can hear Meera shouting at him to warg Hodor, TER turns to him and says "do as your friend says" and then in the vision he Wargs Hodor (past Hodor's eyes roll back like he's warged and then present Hodor springs to action).
> 
> I've seen a lot of weird interpretations of what people think happened, but that to me is pretty clear.



I don't recall his eyes rolling back, I didn't think past Hodor was shown affected until future Hodor was to the door basically. I will rewatch it someday!


----------



## bostjan

I thought the only reason he could warg into Honor was that he was simple. If Brand can simply warg into anyone, past or present, then, obviously, all bets are off. Just have him warg into whatever enemy and jump off a cliff, then dewarg before the enemy hits the bottom. If Wyllis was a normal person in the past, and Brandon cannot warg into a normal person or use warg powers in a vision, then that explanation makes no sense at all.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> I thought the only reason he could warg into Honor was that he was simple. If Brand can simply warg into anyone, past or present, then, obviously, all bets are off. Just have him warg into whatever enemy and jump off a cliff, then dewarg before the enemy hits the bottom. If Wyllis was a normal person in the past, and Brandon cannot warg into a normal person or use warg powers in a vision, then that explanation makes no sense at all.



Well, all bets are off, but it could also make other weird stuff in the story get an explanation later on, like Bran is the Lord of Light (whispering to people he chooses to) or Bran made the mad king go mad or something equally nuts. Who knows. I wish there was only one season left like originally planned since they've been killing off/grouping up characters at an increased rate since the end of last season. I want the final answers, dammit!

Apparently the current plan is only 13 episodes after this season, but unfortunately given the scope it's probably going to end up some excruciating wait like 7 one year and 6 the next. I guess we get what we ask for, though. I'd rather have it done right instead of having rushed TV production values like occasionally happen.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

wankerness said:


> I don't recall his eyes rolling back, I didn't think past Hodor was shown affected until future Hodor was to the door basically. I will rewatch it someday!



Wyllis' eyes do indeed roll back. I didn't fully understand it either but I watched an explanation from Alt Shift X yesterday and then I understood that Bran, while in the past, warged into Wyllis and jumped through time to warg Hodor and that was what caused Wyllis' brain to basically fracture.

Man I can't wait for tonight. Last night I had GoT dreams mainly relating to Tyrion and Arya and although they obviously won't happen it just made me pumped for the show


----------



## Xaios

vividox said:


> Weirwoods don't experience time like humans do, they experience every time at once.



Weirwoods = wormhole aliens, Game of Thrones and Star Trek being in the same universe confirmed.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

I enjoyed tonight's episode a lot, some really great developments.



Spoiler



I liked the Benjen reveal and the Bran line for this episode. I'm really glad Bran has another ally now, especially one that can work with the Night's Watch. The return of Walder Frey should prove interesting. The Faith vs Jaime was crazy though, I didn't know what to expect. It's interesting to see how Jaime and Cersei are so consumed in their "Lannisters are the best, we're the best" mentality that they're almost forgetting that their son Tommen is also a Lannister. They seem to care more about personal power than Lannister power...also the Sam plot line was great. I really can't wait to see what comes of this. Arya was my fav though, got so existential, and now she's on the run from the Faceless Men, can't wait to see this play out!


----------



## wankerness

I thought tonight's episode was a little bit boring after the awesome opening, mainly cause we got all that junk with Sam and Gilly. I don't hate the characters, but it seems like such a waste of time whenever we see them. I feel like the last time they did anything I cared about was way back in season 3 when Sam found the dragonglass and owned the white walker. I liked that we saw that Sam's sister and mother (and even brother) all seemed to care about him, but at the same time it seems like it was all just kind of light character shading without any real progression to the plot. Well, nevermind, he did get that sword.

I'm glad they blew up the Arya storyline, I was worried this would drag on for a couple more episodes. I don't feel like she actually gained any "powers" from this whole detour, though, so I'm not sure what we're going to expect here. She sure hasn't been switching faces or learning any combat skills other than how to get hit with a stick a whole lot and occasionally dodge while blind. I liked when she laughed at Joffrey dying, but liked more when she seemed to empathize with Cersei, though that may have simply been her thinking that actress was good.

I'm not sure what to think about the Lannister stuff. Given the previous seasons, I assume Margary is up to something since she's been proven to be one of the smartest and most manipulative characters several times over. However, she's been SO wasted this season that I'm not entirely convinced she didn't legitimately turn into a boring religious wacko. Nothing to do but wait and see, I guess.

Bran stuff was good. Danaerys stuff was tedious as usual. How many episodes now have ended with an army of brown people worshipping her Aryan ideal after she delivers some ponderous dialogue in a made-up language? 5? More? Argh! The racism merely makes me giggle, but somehow the character manages to be incredibly boring even when riding on a frickin dragon. The last time I really liked her was that episode where she had the unsullied kill all the masters, it's just been diminishing returns since then. Despite the incredible casting on all middle-aged or older characters on this show, and even on the children, it's odd they have their two conspicuously weakest actors in what may be the two most important roles - Jon Snow and her!!!


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Well, all bets are off, but it could also make other weird stuff in the story get an explanation later on, like Bran is the Lord of Light (whispering to people he chooses to) or Bran made the mad king go mad or something equally nuts. Who knows. I wish there was only one season left like originally planned since they've been killing off/grouping up characters at an increased rate since the end of last season. I want the final answers, dammit!
> 
> Apparently the current plan is only 13 episodes after this season, but unfortunately given the scope it's probably going to end up some excruciating wait like 7 one year and 6 the next. I guess we get what we ask for, though. I'd rather have it done right instead of having rushed TV production values like occasionally happen.



I didn't know there were only 13 left after this year. I'm guessing they will start doing the "this episode is 60 minutes, but this one one is 90!" tactic that many other shows use.

Last night felt like a little bit of an "in between" episode. I have a hard time believing that Daenerys gets to Westeros before the end of this season. 

If there isn't "the undead" vs Daenerys huge army and dragons at some point I will be disappointed.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

I still can't get how human's mind work.
Everyone realizes that this show is crap, but still watching it, me included.
And it's not only here, but wherever I go, from anime to movies, to videogames, to music forums, everyone throws crap at this series but no one drops it, it's incredible.
And...throwing crap at the series is not a fad, it's just because it has become objectively bad.
For me, non book reader, it was quite fine until season 4; season 5 was TERRIBAD.
Season 6 has not been as bad as se05 but it's yawn festival anyway.


----------



## extendedsolo

OmegaSlayer said:


> I still can't get how human's mind work.
> Everyone realizes that this show is crap, but still watching it, me included.
> And it's not only here, but wherever I go, from anime to movies, to videogames, to music forums, everyone throws crap at this series but no one drops it, it's incredible.
> And...throwing crap at the series is not a fad, it's just because it has become objectively bad.
> For me, non book reader, it was quite fine until season 4; season 5 was TERRIBAD.
> Season 6 has not been as bad as se05 but it's yawn festival anyway.



Are you aware of the meaning of objective?


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

OmegaSlayer said:


> I still can't get how human's mind work.
> Everyone realizes that this show is crap, but still watching it, me included.
> And it's not only here, but wherever I go, from anime to movies, to videogames, to music forums, everyone throws crap at this series but no one drops it, it's incredible.
> And...throwing crap at the series is not a fad, it's just because it has become objectively bad.



This might be the funniest and most simple minded comment I've seen about this show.

"It's crap, objectively" hilarious.


----------



## extendedsolo

UnattendedGolfcart said:


> This might be the funniest and most simple minded comment I've seen about this show.
> 
> "It's crap, objectively" hilarious.



it's like he's made a super concentrated post from the entirety of the internet. "everything sucks because of some stuff I've read at arbitrary places."


----------



## SD83

As a book reader, I have to agree a bit. There is so much stuff in both books and series that seems to be going absolutly nowhere for ages. 
To me, the latest episode had the first interesting bit with Arya in it since she left The Hound. Everything in between was just pointless walking around, getting hit with a stick, scrubbing the floor, getting hit with the stick, washing the dead, getting hit with a stick while blind... hopefully she stays Arya, "no one" was a waste of time.
Daenaerys? Another army ex machina for absolutly no reason, and now she needs "a thousand ships". What a stunning coincidence that on the other end of the world someone just decided to build a thousand ships (without trees or men to man even half of them), sail to Daenaerys and bring her to Westeros. So we'll probably see a ton of Mereen before Euron arrives, gets beaten by Daenaerys and then killed by Theon while trying to flee. Tyron is probably having a nice barbecue and plays drinking games with the two remaining dragons.
And while i'm speculating: Most of northern Westeros lies in ruins, all the armys suffered heavy losses, the Dornish are probably preparing to march north while King Sparrow sends Jaime north, Walder Frey gets defeated at Riverrun as Jaime decides to defect and support the Blackfish. Sansa decides to lay siege on Winterfell and just starve Ramsay to death. Dorne attacks Kings Landing, Tommen dies on the battlefield, Tyrell forces drive them back, Tommen is now seen as a saint and martyr, Margaery rules, while Cersei, shocked by her brothers decision, throws herself from the highest tower of the Red Keep. Bran goes back in time and wargs Daenaerys and the Night King, rules the world forever after through them.


----------



## mongey

I thought it was ok. Probably my least favorite of the season. 

The gilly and Sam stuff is the biggest flaw. Their story just has no momentum and I have no interest. 

Everything else was ok. Thev dragon scene seemed a little tacked on. 

On one hand I liked how they slowly reveal the faceless men to really not be the honorable organization arya thought but now she has been on another roundabout going nowhere for another 2 seasons n

Good to see walder again.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

extendedsolo said:


> Are you aware of the meaning of objective?



Objectively is bad.
Tell me what is good in this show about:
- Character Development
- Story Development
- If you have watched some other TV series you realize that even direction and photography is not as good as many other show with way less budget (and I mean from battle scene on "hugs scale" to 1vs1 that are BADLY coreographed
- Shock factor is unexistent, as so many characters have been killed just 'cause, and when the watcher doesn't develope a minimal tie with characters, the death is useless
- Plot holes everywhere
- Overall Acting (except a couple of individuals, namely Lena Hadey, Victor Pryce and Peter Dinklage)

So, you two scientists (UnattendedGolfcart and extendedsolo) explain what is good in this show and why it is worth watching every day


----------



## Fraz666

Liam Cunningham (Davos) is a huge actor, I like a lot also Conleth Hill (Varys)


----------



## BIG ND SWEATY

OmegaSlayer said:


> Objectively is bad.
> Tell me what is good in this show about:
> - Character Development
> - Story Development
> - If you have watched some other TV series you realize that even direction and photography is not as good as many other show with way less budget (and I mean from battle scene on "hugs scale" to 1vs1 that are BADLY coreographed
> - Shock factor is unexistent, as so many characters have been killed just 'cause, and when the watcher doesn't develope a minimal tie with characters, the death is useless
> - Plot holes everywhere
> - Overall Acting (except a couple of individuals, namely Lena Hadey, Victor Pryce and Peter Dinklage)
> 
> So, you two scientists (UnattendedGolfcart and extendedsolo) explain what is good in this show and why it is worth watching every day



Everyone I know thinks the show is great. Sure there are a few weak spots at points but literally every show has them. Clearly this show just isn't for you so why do you even care? More importantly why are you upset that people like something you don't?


----------



## extendedsolo

OmegaSlayer said:


> Objectively is bad.
> Tell me what is good in this show about:
> - Character Development
> - Story Development
> - If you have watched some other TV series you realize that even direction and photography is not as good as many other show with way less budget (and I mean from battle scene on "hugs scale" to 1vs1 that are BADLY coreographed
> - Shock factor is unexistent, as so many characters have been killed just 'cause, and when the watcher doesn't develope a minimal tie with characters, the death is useless
> - Plot holes everywhere
> - Overall Acting (except a couple of individuals, namely Lena Hadey, Victor Pryce and Peter Dinklage)
> 
> So, you two scientists (UnattendedGolfcart and extendedsolo) explain what is good in this show and why it is worth watching every day



No. You are the one making the claim, therefore, you must provide the evidence. It would be like walking into a debate and saying "show me how I'm wrong the proof is there if you look at it."Your examples and "proof" are still very weak. Don't pull this BS where the proof is where you say "just look at it/watch the show it's there! If you don't get it I can't explain it to you" That's such a lazy argument and just shows you are justifying your dislike of the show in any way possible. IT'S COMPLETELY FINE TO NOT LIKE THE SHOW MAN! Seriously, post content with actual critiques and examples from the show or just accept that this show isn't for you and move on. I used to watch The Walking Dead, but stopped because I realized it wasn't for me. I don't hang out on the internet saying how bad it sucks now though either.



BIG ND SWEATY said:


> Everyone I know thinks the show is great. Sure there are a few weak spots at points but literally every show has them. Clearly this show just isn't for you so why do you even care? More importantly why are you upset that people like something you don't?



Yeah, so much positive feedback about this show from quite a few corners of the internet. Yeah, even they will agree it's not perfect but they still like it. They also probably don't get off on being a contrarian on a high horse.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Fraz666 said:


> Liam Cunningham (Davos) is a huge actor, I like a lot also Conleth Hill (Varys)



Yes, those are indeed good but just side characters.



extendedsolo said:


> No. You are the one making the claim, therefore, you must provide the evidence. It would be like walking into a debate and saying "show me how I'm wrong the proof is there if you look at it."Your examples and "proof" are still very weak. Don't pull this BS where the proof is where you say "just look at it/watch the show it's there! If you don't get it I can't explain it to you" That's such a lazy argument and just shows you are justifying your dislike of the show in any way possible. IT'S COMPLETELY FINE TO NOT LIKE THE SHOW MAN! Seriously, post content with actual critiques and examples from the show or just accept that this show isn't for you and move on. I used to watch The Walking Dead, but stopped because I realized it wasn't for me. I don't hang out on the internet saying how bad it sucks now though either.



- Dorne plot is a joke...Mircella died, funeral...no consequences planned, no pain, nothing
- Daenerys sets fire to stones...WOW
- Jon Snow raises from the dead, says he leave the Watch, then he keeps his title to hang the betrayers, then leaves...hypocrite much
- Deus Ex Machina everywhere to justify weak plots...prostitutes to solve the slavers problem
- 80% of what happens never has a development build-up, like the Rickon Stark stuff, so it always seems an a**pull and soooo random
And that's just the first things that comes to my mind from the past couple of episodes



> Yeah, so much positive feedback about this show from quite a few corners of the internet. Yeah, even they will agree it's not perfect but they still like it. They also probably don't get off on being a contrarian on a high horse.



Yeah, if you dig only between people who likes it, it has positive reception.
Most of the people that stopped to watch it don't even enter a discussion about it.
Do you write into the "The Walking Dead" thread to discuss it since you stopped watching it?


----------



## bostjan

@OmegaSlayer: The acting is great, overall, on the series. The script is the problem. As far as the show being good or bad, it's a personal preference above all. A lot may have to do with changes over time. Season one was great, featuring a fantastic script which was true to the first book, which was the best book, IMO, also featuring Sean Bean. Everything since then has been less faithful to the books, which also haven't been as good since the first book, IMO, and the whole thing went from each episode telling a nice story as part of a grander epic story for the entire season, to plot development seeming more like a chore in several side plots, and the characters being scattered over the world with far less interaction between them. So is the show awful, no, not according to critical acclaim, and not according to viewer ratings. But I agree that it is not as good as it set out to be with the first season.

@This weekend's episode: I was a lot less moved than last week. I wanted more Coldhands and less Sam. The Kings Landing scene was the textbook definition of anticlimactic. The Walder Frey scene could have been much more entertaining. Whereas last week's episode seemed like a whole lot was going on, this week seemed like Coldhands and then nothing else really happened.


----------



## vividox

You're the first person I've heard who says the first book is the best. _Storm of Swords_ was way better, IMO.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> You're the first person I've heard who says the first book is the best. _Storm of Swords_ was way better, IMO.



Just my opinion. I respect your opinion as well. On the other hand, if you said _A Feast for Crows_ was best, then we could no longer be friends.  Just kidding, mostly.


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> @This weekend's episode: I was a lot less moved than last week. I wanted more Coldhands and less Sam. The Kings Landing scene was the textbook definition of anticlimactic. The Walder Frey scene could have been much more entertaining. Whereas last week's episode seemed like a whole lot was going on, this week seemed like Coldhands and then nothing else really happened.



I would argue that this has plagued most shows. I can't really think of a show that has had every scene be just amazing and moving the plot forward at the same rate as another scene. 

I mean look at shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men. Great shows with great scripts and wonderful acting and plots. The Wire, considered by some to be the best show ever, suffers too. I'm not going to get nitpicky here especially with SOO many characters.


----------



## SD83

vividox said:


> You're the first person I've heard who says the first book is the best. _Storm of Swords_ was way better, IMO.



Which is probably the last of the books where anything interesting happened until towards the end of _A dance with dragons_. The first book is my favourite as well though, and while it was probably more interesting plot-wise, if I remember correctly _Storm of Swords_ nearly had me stop reading the novels entirely as you had to go through increasing amounts of names, banners, dresses, foods, more names, banners, dresses & food and Martin seemed almost obsessed with wine & whores. _Feast for crows _was worse, just meandering nowhere, while _A dance with dragons _at least set the stage for a hopefully more interesting sixth book (if such thing ever happens).


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> I would argue that this has plagued most shows. I can't really think of a show that has had every scene be just amazing and moving the plot forward at the same rate as another scene.
> 
> I mean look at shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men. Great shows with great scripts and wonderful acting and plots. The Wire, considered by some to be the best show ever, suffers too. I'm not going to get nitpicky here especially with SOO many characters.



Where Breaking Bad was brilliant was in the way it was developing. I'm fine with a slow paced story, sometimes, as long as it still holds onto my interest somehow. BB stewed slowly, with action becoming more regular as the show went on. The inevitable end always growing closer.

GoT has a lot more action, but the action is interspersed with a lot of slow-moving moments, and too many subplots, many of which don't lead anywhere.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> Just my opinion. I respect your opinion as well. On the other hand, if you said _A Feast for Crows_ was best, then we could no longer be friends.  Just kidding, mostly.


Yeah, I think everyone is pretty much in agreement that FFC/DWD was a drop off. I enjoyed them a lot more the second time I read them when I combined them chronologically, but there is a *lot* of traveloguing in those two.


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

OmegaSlayer isn't saying anything of value and clearly no amount of discussion will remotely sway his opinion, so who cares? I don't. If you don't like it don't watch it, and don't try to be insulting to people because they do like it. Nothing is perfect. Dany is boring 75% of the time, but that's my opinion. I'm not actively telling everyone that the show is objectively bad because I don't like it and then not explain my opinion, that's being immature.

So no arguing is coming from me because it's not worth it.

Anyway... I'm interested in seeing what Jaime does. I'm expecting an encounter between him and Brienne, and hopefully Tormund. Three way battle, love triangle GoT style.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> @This weekend's episode: I was a lot less moved than last week. I wanted more Coldhands and less Sam. *The Kings Landing scene was the textbook definition of anticlimactic.* The Walder Frey scene could have been much more entertaining. Whereas last week's episode seemed like a whole lot was going on, this week seemed like Coldhands and then nothing else really happened.



Umm...no, it really wasn't, cause it featured a really major heel-turn from Margaery that led to basically a coup where the Sparrow now has control of the crown and the kingsguard, and it kicked a major character out of King's Landing entirely as a result. Whether you wanted a huge fight scene or not, you can't argue nothing happened there.

The Walder Frey thing contained some exciting info about the brotherhood without banners, for anyone who read the books. I still don't think they're going to introduce


Spoiler



Lady Stoneheart,


 though. I'm thinking maybe we'll get the news that The Hound is still alive. He could end up in King's Landing too, though. I've seen a lot of predictions that the big trial by combat is going to be CLEGANE-BOWL. It's too bad The Hound would be on the side of the religious nuts.


----------



## bostjan

Anticlimactic: adjective, Lacking climax, disappointing or ironically insignificant following of impressive foreshadowing.

The foreshadowing being that the soldiers were ready to attack, the sept was ready to stand ground and fight. We'd get to see Jamie in action again. We expected to see the annoying sept finally go away, but the actual climax was what? Tommen was revealed to be on the High Sparrow's side? That qualifies to me as disappointing and ironically insignificant following impressive foreshadowing. Also, it's not really a climax, because no issues on either side were resolved. I hold that it was anticlimactic.

What exciting info? I really didn't get excited. Maybe I missed something.

The other stuff you mentioned has not happened, and possibly won't happen on the show, so I hold that my "and then nothing else really happened" statement was accurate.

So yeah, I hold that all my statements were accurate.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> Anticlimactic: adjective, Lacking climax, disappointing or ironically insignificant following of impressive foreshadowing.
> 
> The foreshadowing being that the soldiers were ready to attack, the sept was ready to stand ground and fight. We'd get to see Jamie in action again. We expected to see the annoying sept finally go away, but the actual climax was what? Tommen was revealed to be on the High Sparrow's side? That qualifies to me as disappointing and ironically insignificant following impressive foreshadowing. Also, it's not really a climax, because no issues on either side were resolved. I hold that it was anticlimactic.



Tommen was trying (and failing) repeatedly to stand up to them, and was still on his mother's side, and as the episode opened they were all gathering up their troops along with all of the Tyrell forces to have a violent confrontation with the religious nuts. Then we had the surprise where Margaery stopped resisting, and instead is (probably pretending to be) on their side too, which gets her out of prison. She's also used this heel-turn to manipulate Tommen into completely going over to their side and ditching his mother, thus kicking Jaime out of King's Landing entirely and further marginalizing Cersei. Instead of a huge division between the Lannisters/Kingsguard/Tyrells and the Sparrows, now all power is consolidated. That's quite a big change! This just leaves Cersei and her zombie mountain in their corner, basically. That's a pretty huge power shift in favor of the sparrows. It essentially creates the same change that would have resulted in a big fight scene in which the Tyrells/Kingsguard lost to the Sparrows, just without the violence.


----------



## bostjan

I don't disagree with your predictions. Still, though, everything leading up to a big violent climax and then some political stuff happening that has subtler implications instead is anticlimactic. Margaery's "heel turn" was not a surprise, at all. Cersei's decline from power has been happening for two seasons of the show now, so there's not much exciting about another small failure for her politically.

It's not a bad scene, but it's not a riveting scene, either, and I still hold that it was anticlimactic. I'm really not getting a convincing argument from you (yet) that I was wrong in calling it such.

I mean, if I gathered together a huge army to invade the Vatican and take control of the Catholic Church, and on the steps of the Pope's house, President Obama came out with the Secret Service and told me to go home, and I said, "curses, I've been foiled," and called the whole thing off - it'd be anticlimactic. I'm not saying that backing down would be a bad idea (it would not), or that it wouldn't be a compelling story (I bet the news would be all over it), but it'd be about as anticlimactic as anticlimactic can get.


----------



## SD83

bostjan said:


> Margaery's "heel turn" was not a surprise



I'd still be suprised if she 
a) is honest about it or 
b) I (and apparently most other viewers) were entirely mistaken in thinking about her as manipulating, scheming and trying to gain more power when deep in her heart she was just a little princess that wanted to be loved.
The later would be a major dissappointment, at least to me, as that would make Margaery as boring and stupid as Sansa was at the beginning of the series...
I'm rather curious about how the Tyrells, namely Olenna, will take it. Same for the Lannisters. I don't think any of them will be particullarily loyal to King Sparrow.


----------



## vividox

It definitely feels like a ploy. Especially considering the scene where she meets with her brother and he says, "I don't care about winning, I just want it to stop." Seems like a natural follow up that she's mouthing the words to help her brother out. (EDIT: and to tag onto that, the High Sparrow put her in that room with her brother for exactly this reason. He doesn't care if she's sincere or not, he got exactly what he was after.)

But if that's the case, she's really jerking Tommen around with her. Siding with the Faith Militant could have some dire consequences for her and her house. Tommen dismissing Jaime is probably a win for Margaery, but outside of that, she may be getting in above her head.


----------



## bostjan

Margaery has been up to her neck in trouble since she came into the narrative. I didn't see any of her actions so far as a surprise.

Since she married into House Baratheon, she's not officially part of house Tyrell anymore. Cersei is still very much in league with House Lannister, since, well, you know...


----------



## big_aug

Glad to see my boy the Hound back. Felt bad for him. I liked this episode a lot. I think the next few are going to just be straight awesome.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, they just need to keep Dorne and Daenaerys off the screen. Lots of good stuff this episode. I'm not sure if we're going to see a Sandor Vs Mountain thing, though. Maybe he'll take out the brotherhood without banners instead. I'm kind of curious what's going to go on with the Blackfish and Jaime/Bronn, I don't really have any ideas there. I was expecting some kind of deal to be made when Jaime talked to him that would suggest they'd turn on the Freys and turn Walder into a pie, but nope.

Obviously Lyanna was the best part of the episode.

Arya still hasn't seemed to have learned anything since the end of season 4, jeez. No gained assassin skills, and now she gets stabbed in the stomach and reacts by walking around through the center of downtown in full sunlight while bleeding everywhere. I hope she gets out of dodge, unless she's going to hang out with the actors for a couple episodes and heal before having revenge on that tiresome waif.


----------



## SD83

The Hound is back, Theon might be back, Blackfish is back on screen,and Margaery apparently still has her own agenda, Arya still sucks at everything except stealing. If only she would have stayed with the Hound... well, Lyanna Mormont seems a bit like what I would think Arya would have wanted to be like in series 1. 
I wonder who is responsible for the slaughtering of those people around the Hound. "The night is dark and full of terrors" would point at the Brotherhood, but the last time we heard of them they weren't exactly slaughtering innocent for sport. Now that I think about it, that is something I didn't understand about the Wildlings either. I can understand killing the men/fighters, stealing all their stuff, raping the women, maybe steal some children for slaves, but why kill everyone for no apparent reason?
It seems I am the only one interested in what the Dornish are going to do next


----------



## mongey

Liked it. Needed more mcshane. But still good.


----------



## extendedsolo

Yeah when I saw Ian Mcshane was in this season I thought he would have a really big part. I was excited to see him on screen, but now, well we won't? 

So much to figure out in 3 episodes.


----------



## bostjan

I quite enjoyed the episode. Yes Arya is still weak, but she's very young and has a lot to learn. She's obviously not going to be able to rely on physical prowess.

There was a lot of sizing up going on in the episode, which, to me, acts as foreshadowing.

The scene with the Queen of Thorns delivered well on what I expected from the character. She's proven to be quite witty, but it also served it's own foreshadowing. Hopefully we can see this trial by combat before too long.

There seems to be a lot more tension, to me, than pretty much everything since season one.

Everything seems to point at Cersei's downfall becoming complete soon, but I would not be too surprised if she had another trick or two up her sleeves. In the past, though, she's relied more on her position as the Queen, and as the Mother of the King, and on her associates, than on her own wits. Now it seems she has no associates aside from the Zombie-Mountain, and her position as the Mother of the King means a lot less than it used to.

The Ramsay thing, I believe, will come to a head before the season finale. At this point, Rickon is so undeveloped as a character, I don't see him being anything more than a McGuffin from here out, if he even survives.

Maybe, and this is a shot in the dark, but I'll spoiler tag it just in case it gives anything away:



Spoiler



I think the Hound's return might be important to Sansa, since he was so infatuated with her, and he's geographically close to Blackfish, and both of them are being suddenly reintroduced at the time when Sansa's in desperate need of help. I just can't parse how the distance between her and them would be resolved. Maybe it's set up for something next season.





SD83 said:


> It seems I am the only one interested in what the Dornish are going to do next



I think maybe you are. Certainly there is a role to play in the bigger picture, but who knows.


----------



## wankerness

SD83 said:


> The Hound is back, Theon might be back, Blackfish is back on screen,and Margaery apparently still has her own agenda, Arya still sucks at everything except stealing. If only she would have stayed with the Hound... well, Lyanna Mormont seems a bit like what I would think Arya would have wanted to be like in series 1.
> *I wonder who is responsible for the slaughtering of those people around the Hound. "The night is dark and full of terrors" would point at the Brotherhood, but the last time we heard of them they weren't exactly slaughtering innocent for sport.* Now that I think about it, that is something I didn't understand about the Wildlings either. I can understand killing the men/fighters, stealing all their stuff, raping the women, maybe steal some children for slaves, but why kill everyone for no apparent reason?
> It seems I am the only one interested in what the Dornish are going to do next



The showrunners apparently confirmed the guy who said that was Lem Lemoncloak.


----------



## Xaios

SD83 said:


> I wonder who is responsible for the slaughtering of those people around the Hound. "The night is dark and full of terrors" would point at the Brotherhood, but the last time we heard of them they weren't exactly slaughtering innocent for sport.





Spoiler



It's been a while, but as I recall, after the death of Berrick Dondarrion and the advent of Lady Stoneheart in the books, the Brotherhood went kinda kill-crazy.


----------



## big_aug

I'm just hoping the Hound completely redeems himself. He is probably my favorite character. Please let him ally with the Starks in some way or "reunite" with Lady B. In don't really like straight up "good" or "evil" characters. I like the kind of good/neutral but terribly flawed ones like Sandor.


----------



## mongey

been thinking on it and I still liked the episode

thing that irks me a little it seems like Arya is gonna finish this season having gone no where , again 

when she headed off to look for the faceless men I had high hopes for her story line. but it is really in a holding pattern it seems


----------



## extendedsolo

Here is a theory I heard about arya and how that will be resolved



Spoiler



That basically Jaquen is Arya right now and uses her last kill as him. She knows the waif is coming for her and he has already shown he can use her face. Kinda flimsy but still. We see her jumping from windows in teasers for next week I think



or


Spoiler



She goes to the actors/actresses she helped out and they nurse her back to health. My impression was that they were traveling?


----------



## bhakan

I think the main problem the show is running into is it has lost all sense of urgency. For the first couple seasons the clear focus was on the Stark family and the throne. It also made it clear that no character was safe just because they were a beloved main character and used this to great effect. I would be anxious to find out what would happen in the next episode because there was always a very real risk that it would take a turn for the worse, which also made "wins" on the show that much more impactful. 

Then they started to overuse the whole "brutally kill beloved character" thing to where you just kind of develop a complacency towards the character's lives because suddenly and shockingly killing a main character is only shocking so many times. Additionally, at this point in the show the only ending that actually makes any sense is Daenerys taking the iron throne and fighting the white walkers. They've made increasingly clear that the white walkers are the true threat and that the infighting in King's Landing is inconsequential, and yet continue to fill 90% of the screen time with the stuff they've just convinced us was inconsequential. I have no problem with "slow" episodes as I don't really think action has ever really been the show's strong suit and the exposition was always interesting and became crucial later on, but at this point it feels like they've already kind of shown their hand and are just waiting too long to follow through.

It's just a shame because this has been hands down my favorite show since I found it and while I still enjoy it, it really feels like it's losing steam.


----------



## big_aug

If I wanted to read the books, what should I buy? The Song of Ice and Fire box set?

Edit: I took the plunge on the box set. I'm so ....ing excited. I haven't read a novel in years. Embarrassingly, not even a book. And I consider myself kind of an intellectual. Feels good to have a book on the way again. Maybe this will open the flood gates for me.


----------



## Fraz666

extendedsolo said:


> Here is a theory I heard about arya and how that will be resolved
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> That basically Jaquen is Arya right now and uses her last kill as him. She knows the waif is coming for her and he has already shown he can use her face. Kinda flimsy but still. We see her jumping from windows in teasers for next week I think
> 
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> She goes to the actors/actresses she helped out and they nurse her back to health. My impression was that they were traveling?


Interesting!
I read another one:


Spoiler



She and his killer are the same person, all their interactions are in his mind (Fight Club style). when she asks Jaquen to kill Arya, it is to complete the transformation


----------



## Maybrick

"How many fighting men can we expect?..."










"......62"


----------



## vividox

bhakan said:


> I think the main problem the show is running into is it has lost all sense of urgency.


I think people are getting desensitized. GoT had a fairly even pace between Seasons 1 and 4, then Season 5 was super rushed in comparison. (And indeed, Seasons 1 through 4 covered the first three books and Season 5 combined the last two). The impression I get is that some people just want the story to be all buttoned up and finished already. They want the White Walkers to march, Dany in Westeros with her dragons, and Jon Snow to play his part. Almost a Monty Python "GET ON WITH IT!" if you will.

But the story isn't done yet. Season 6 got back to the pace of the first few seasons. Which, if anything, I will call an extremely positive thing. There is maneuvering, plot development, character development, and posturing still to take place. And that is happening every single episode. People who want to rush to the end are very quick to say "nothing happened" just because we don't see a Red Wedding, Purple Wedding, or Hardhome every single episode. _But you can't have that every episode. _You have to have all the pieces in place for episodes like that. Every single one of these episodes has moved entire armies, created or manipulated alliances, or killed off main characters. IMO, you can't say the show has lost urgency, you can only say that last season the show was rushing itself and it stopped rushing itself this season.


----------



## vividox

big_aug said:


> If I wanted to read the books, what should I buy? The Song of Ice and Fire box set?
> 
> Edit: I took the plunge on the box set. I'm so ....ing excited. I haven't read a novel in years. Embarrassingly, not even a book. And I consider myself kind of an intellectual. Feels good to have a book on the way again. Maybe this will open the flood gates for me.


Definitely made the right call getting the box set. It's simply a lot cheaper that way. Enjoy, the books are a real treat.


----------



## bostjan

I don't mind there being different stories.

I actually like the ideal of having each episode tell a story, each season tell a story, and a grander overall story for the entire show.

In fact, they kind of lose me a little when an episode doesn't tell a story and they really lose me when a season doesn't really go along a particular story.


----------



## big_aug

Winter is coming.

No really, winter will be here before I finish these.


----------



## Simic

Damn, now I have book GAS hahaha  Need to get myself a box set for the summer as well


----------



## extendedsolo

They just posted the last two episode titles for season 6. Huge spoilers for whats ahead so I'll just post a link. Needless to say, but I'm excited. 

Game of Thrones Is Getting a Wun Wun-Sized Finale for Season Six


----------



## big_aug

Simic said:


> Damn, now I have book GAS hahaha  Need to get myself a box set for the summer as well



Dude I read 300 pages of the first book today. Highly recommend it.

Its amazing how well the TV series captures the essence of the books. I like that ive watched the series first and am now reading the books.


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> They just posted the last two episode titles for season 6. Huge spoilers for whats ahead so I'll just post a link. Needless to say, but I'm excited.
> 
> Game of Thrones Is Getting a Wun Wun-Sized Finale for Season Six



Oh boy! I'm excited about this!!!!one1!


----------



## SD83

Spoiler



Massive disappointment at Riverrun. And I don't really understand where they're going with that. So that Jaime can go back to Cersei? How does Lord Edmures transformation work? He was rubbish at everything back at the Red Wedding and now here he is, after months/years of imprisonment at the Twins, of all places, stronger than ever and almost as badass as the Blackfish (who apparently had about 10 minutes of screentime in the entire series by now)? And why is everyone falling in love with Brienne lately? 
Arya's part finally was interesting to watch, and there seems to be at least one thing she's good at, fighting in the dark.
The Hound and the Brotherhood... I don't know what Martins plans for Lady Stoneheart are now, but if they didn't even hint at her in this episode, it probably means she's really not going to appear. Unless the weird camerawork when the Hound was taking a piss is supposed to mean anything except for "hey, let's do something weird and pointless"
Mereen.. that was a suprise. Looks like we might get a massive battle for Mereen including 3 dragons in this season. Yay.


----------



## big_aug

Loved the episode this time. I can't wait until I catch up in the books. I've almost got.the first one finished.


----------



## wankerness

Mereen was fun until Daenaerys showed up out of the blue in the most low-budget manner possible and didn't do ANYTHING and just left everything totally hanging. Maybe this way the season finale can involve another sea of people worshipping her.

Arya's stuff was absolutely terrible. The way the waif was acting like the T-1000 and very slowly walking unexposed through the crowd to give Arya the maximum amount of time to run away and bleed and .... was idiotic, and then the way they had the slow reveal of the wall, like there was any chance at all of her losing?! And then the end, where Jaqen doesn't have any dialogue that explains any of this recent BS, and doesn't give her anything. What an awful plotline. She doesn't seem to have learned anything other than how to defend herself in the dark over the last two seasons.

Everything else in the episode was pretty good. I loved everything with the Hound especially.


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Mereen was fun until Daenaerys showed up out of the blue in the most low-budget manner possible and didn't do ANYTHING and just left everything totally hanging. Maybe this way the season finale can involve another sea of people worshipping her.
> 
> Arya's stuff was absolutely terrible. The way the waif was acting like the T-1000 and very slowly walking unexposed through the crowd to give Arya the maximum amount of time to run away and bleed and .... was idiotic, and then the way they had the slow reveal of the wall, like there was any chance at all of her losing?! And then the end, where Jaqen doesn't have any dialogue that explains any of this recent BS, and doesn't give her anything. What an awful plotline. She doesn't seem to have learned anything other than how to defend herself in the dark over the last two seasons.
> 
> Everything else in the episode was pretty good. I loved everything with the Hound especially.



You know, I've thought about the Arya thing and I'm guessing she must play a massive part before the end of the series. I'm thinking that her plotline could've just been condensed and then we don't see her for a season. I'm under the impression that the writers didn't want to do that, or she becomes a badass later and is The Hand of the King or something. I've said this multiple times, but I'm waiting until the conclusion of the series to judge a story arc. It's still possible that there was a reason that her arc was so drawn out. In short, I'm not a big fan of it right now.


Next week though......any predictions? I think that Ramsey will lose but NOT die. He will retreat like a coward and we will get to see scared/terrified Ramsey suffer. I'm also banking on the supporting armies coming and helping Jon, LOTR style where they show up out of nowhere.


----------



## wankerness

extendedsolo said:


> You know, I've thought about the Arya thing and I'm guessing she must play a massive part before the end of the series. I'm thinking that her plotline could've just been condensed and then we don't see her for a season. I'm under the impression that the writers didn't want to do that, or she becomes a badass later and is The Hand of the King or something. I've said this multiple times, but I'm waiting until the conclusion of the series to judge a story arc. It's still possible that there was a reason that her arc was so drawn out. In short, I'm not a big fan of it right now.
> 
> 
> Next week though......any predictions? I think that Ramsey will lose but NOT die. He will retreat like a coward and we will get to see scared/terrified Ramsey suffer. *I'm also banking on the supporting armies coming and helping Jon, LOTR style where they show up out of nowhere.*



Unfortunately, it does seem like that's likely, with Littlefinger riding over the hill at the end. F that guy. I hope Sansa chops off his nuts at some point.


----------



## Mathemagician

So I just saw last nights episode, and having only seen episodes 1 & 2 of the first season I gotta say, this show looks pretty good.


----------



## Tyler

Im very eager to see if we see anything from Brann before the season finale or if they are saving more of his story for the next season. The past few episodes have definitely been a giant buildup, so it'll be exciting to see it all go down


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Unfortunately, it does seem like that's likely, with Littlefinger riding over the hill at the end. F that guy. I hope Sansa chops off his nuts at some point.



It would make little to no sense if Littlefinger and Brienne of Tarth don't show up at that battle. Now whether or not they win........

I have a really hard time seeing Ramsey dying next week. It just feels like this world never gives you what you think is the "right thing".

Also, complete crack pot theory......the white walkers come?


----------



## wankerness

I doubt it.

The trailer's pretty good, the action looks as big-budget as they pulled off in the big episode of last year. Looks like we might finally get some fallout on the Shireen/Melisandre/Davos thing, which is too bad, since Davos and Melisandre are my favorite characters at this point and I don't want one of them to have to go!


----------



## bostjan

I finally had a chance to watch Sunday's episode.



Spoiler



So, the Blackfish dies off-camera...I'm thinking they missed an opportunity to show a little action there.


I'm hoping there was a reason why they did it that way, but who knows.

The wine drinking and joking scene was entertaining, for me. I just thought it seemed really organic, even though it it a change of pace for a minute. Of course, I like how they changed the pace for a minute, too. I also liked the scenes with Jamie. He's the character you hate to like or like to hate, and you're never sure which.

Some of the scenes seemed a little dragged out to me, but not horrible: the royal announcement, the Brotherhood without Banners, and first Arya scene.


----------



## big_aug

First book is in the books.


----------



## bostjan

big_aug said:


> First book is in the books.


----------



## big_aug

bostjan said:


>



I just bought the books. I just finished the first in the series. The first book is in the books.


----------



## wankerness

big_aug said:


> I just bought the books. I just finished the first in the series. The first book *is in the books.*



Cmon, who ever uses that expression? You're just trying to confuse people!


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> Cmon, who ever uses that expression? You're just trying to confuse people!



I've heard "in the bag" but I've never even heard of "in the books"


----------



## vividox

I've heard of "in the books". I consider it quite common. Maybe it's a regional thing?


----------



## bostjan

The confusion is in the confusion.

The first book, IMO, was really good. Not the best book I've read, and I haven't read that many, TBH, but I quite enjoyed it, for the most part. The second book as well. The last two books, to me, were a bit of a chore to read, on the other hand.

Anyway, the show is great, not perfect, not spectacular, but great, for me. I quite enjoy it. I have very high expectations for the next two episodes, though, so I might be on here in two weeks complaining about how much I hate the show.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> The confusion is in the confusion.


----------



## wankerness

vividox said:


> I've heard of "in the books". I consider it quite common. Maybe it's a regional thing?



It sounds like a Ricky-ism from Trailer Park Boys, where people mangled an actual phrase into something else and use it wrong to boot  "ON THE BOOKS" is a common phrase meaning that something is officially recorded, like it's written into law, or it's above board. "In the books" doesn't even have results in urban dictionary!


----------



## UnattendedGolfcart

Okay guys, I just noticed something. You know how the general prediction is that Littlefinger is gonna show up Rohan-style with the Knights of the Vale? If you view the second trailer for Season 6, there's a quick scene of Littlefinger in the forest encountering someone, and he looks kind of guilty or ready for a battle of wits. This scene (as far as I can tell) hasn't shown up yet in the show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0ib1NErqg it's at 0:43.

Any ideas? Maybe Sansa or Ramsey will meet him and either discuss terms with him or kill him. Not really sure!


----------



## big_aug

Yea, that scene hasn't happened yet. He's standing in the snow meeting someone. I'm sure he'll continue doing what he's always done and try to .... someone over lol


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> It sounds like a Ricky-ism from Trailer Park Boys, where people mangled an actual phrase into something else and use it wrong to boot  "ON THE BOOKS" is a common phrase meaning that something is officially recorded, like it's written into law, or it's above board. "In the books" doesn't even have results in urban dictionary!



Huh. I'll blame that one on growing up in a small rural town in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for the shedding of my ignorance.


----------



## big_aug

wankerness said:


> It sounds like a Ricky-ism from Trailer Park Boys, where people mangled an actual phrase into something else and use it wrong to boot  "ON THE BOOKS" is a common phrase meaning that something is officially recorded, like it's written into law, or it's above board. "In the books" doesn't even have results in urban dictionary!



Uhm, no.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_the_books

Took me 10 seconds to Google it.


----------



## MFB

We're not saying it doesn't exist, we're just saying it's terribly uncommon in the areas that some of us live in so it SOUNDS fake


----------



## wankerness

big_aug said:


> Uhm, no.
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_the_books
> 
> Took me 10 seconds to Google it.



Yeah, it's in the public-edited wiktionary where it links to three random no-name newspaper articles where the authors used it wrong, and nowhere else, except a site where it attempts to explain the etymology of why the expression is ON THE BOOKS instead of IN. Basically it's like "Could care less" except only a very tiny number of people do it wrong and thus it doesn't have thousands of examples of people trying to explain why it's right 

Coincidentally, most of the first page of results for "in the books" goes to game of thrones show wiki pages where there's a sub-section about each character/place called "in the books"


----------



## bostjan

Let's take this instance of where one of my favourite threads was derailed as an opportunity to discuss how threads have been getting derailed around here a lot lately.  

Examples: A. Let's talk about an awesome amp I have. B. No, let's talk about how djent sucks and Mesa > boutique amps.
A. Let's talk about a crazy person who shot up a nightclub. B. Gun control debate: go.
A. Let's talk about Game of Thrones. B. No, let's talk about how threads keep getting derailed around here lately...oh wait, ....!


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> Let's take this instance of where one of my favourite threads was derailed as an opportunity to discuss how threads have been getting derailed around here a lot lately.
> 
> Examples: A. Let's talk about an awesome amp I have. B. No, let's talk about how djent sucks and Mesa > boutique amps.
> A. Let's talk about a crazy person who shot up a nightclub. B. Gun control debate: go.
> A. Let's talk about Game of Thrones. B. No, let's talk about how threads keep getting derailed around here lately...oh wait, ....!



All of this just to avoid talking about the moon landing being fake?


----------



## SD83

Now that we're talking about books being in the books, while there are many books read within other books, I don't think I've ever seen any show or movie that has scenes where actors play actors reenact a scene those actors played. A play within a play. 
At this point in the series, I have to say I don't see any point in the White Walkers existing in it, other than to give Lady Mormont a reason to join Jon Snow. Besides Davos & Jon, no one seems to be even remotely concerned about them, half of Westeros lies in ruins, most armies have probably been severely decimated since not all battles were so disappointing as the ones on screen. Wtf was it with the battle for Riverrun? So Edmure could have just walked there at any point, say "OK guys, surrender, or they will murder my child that I have never seen that will one day be heir to Riverrun which he will not be because we hand it over right now." and everyone besides Blackfish says "OK, you were Lord of Riverrun, but now the Iron Throne handed it over to Walder Frey and stripped you of all your titles, so you're not officially Lord of Riverrun, but since you're Lord of Riverrun, we surrender so you can hand it over to the Lord of Riverrun, which is not you and will probably never be a Tully anymore..." That just doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## big_aug

MFB said:


> We're not saying it doesn't exist, we're just saying it's terribly uncommon in the areas that some of us live in so it SOUNDS fake




Well, the guy basically said we made it up by butchering something else and we aren't saying it correctly. That's false. I don't really care and wasn't even going to respond until multiple people discussed it.

"In the books" is a pretty common phrase to mean something is finished, completed, etc. When I thought about it, I concluded it probably came to be as a result of history being written in text books or something like that. Who knows? I only said it because I i was saying a book was in the books. 

Anyway looking forward to Sunday.


----------



## big_aug

wankerness said:


> Yeah, it's in the public-edited wiktionary where it links to three random no-name newspaper articles where the authors used it wrong, and nowhere else, except a site where it attempts to explain the etymology of why the expression is ON THE BOOKS instead of IN. Basically it's like "Could care less" except only a very tiny number of people do it wrong and thus it doesn't have thousands of examples of people trying to explain why it's right
> 
> Coincidentally, most of the first page of results for "in the books" goes to game of thrones show wiki pages where there's a sub-section about each character/place called "in the books"



So Urban Dictionary, which is the exact same thing, is what you would want but this other less than reliable/accurate source is not good enough?


----------



## wankerness

big_aug said:


> So Urban Dictionary, which is the exact same thing, is what you would want but this other less than reliable/accurate source is not good enough?



No, hence the use of the word "even" in that sentence. I'm done with this.


----------



## extendedsolo

SD83 said:


> Now that we're talking about books being in the books, while there are many books read within other books, I don't think I've ever seen any show or movie that has scenes where actors play actors reenact a scene those actors played. A play within a play.
> At this point in the series, I have to say I don't see any point in the White Walkers existing in it, other than to give Lady Mormont a reason to join Jon Snow. Besides Davos & Jon, no one seems to be even remotely concerned about them, half of Westeros lies in ruins, most armies have probably been severely decimated since not all battles were so disappointing as the ones on screen. Wtf was it with the battle for Riverrun? So Edmure could have just walked there at any point, say "OK guys, surrender, or they will murder my child that I have never seen that will one day be heir to Riverrun which he will not be because we hand it over right now." and everyone besides Blackfish says "OK, you were Lord of Riverrun, but now the Iron Throne handed it over to Walder Frey and stripped you of all your titles, so you're not officially Lord of Riverrun, but since you're Lord of Riverrun, we surrender so you can hand it over to the Lord of Riverrun, which is not you and will probably never be a Tully anymore..." That just doesn't make any sense to me.



I'm framing this.


Also, LOL at anyone who quotes urban dictionary as a source instead of, ya know, AN ACTUAL BOOK.


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> All of this just to avoid talking about the moon landing being fake?



It's a government conspiracy. This site is actually entirely fake just to get people to buy more Ibanez, which will distract them from the moon landing.



SD83 said:


> Now that we're talking about books being in the books, while there are many books read within other books, I don't think I've ever seen any show or movie that has scenes where actors play actors reenact a scene those actors played. A play within a play.
> At this point in the series, I have to say I don't see any point in the White Walkers existing in it, other than to give Lady Mormont a reason to join Jon Snow. Besides Davos & Jon, no one seems to be even remotely concerned about them, half of Westeros lies in ruins, most armies have probably been severely decimated since not all battles were so disappointing as the ones on screen. Wtf was it with the battle for Riverrun? So Edmure could have just walked there at any point, say "OK guys, surrender, or they will murder my child that I have never seen that will one day be heir to Riverrun which he will not be because we hand it over right now." and everyone besides Blackfish says "OK, you were Lord of Riverrun, but now the Iron Throne handed it over to Walder Frey and stripped you of all your titles, so you're not officially Lord of Riverrun, but since you're Lord of Riverrun, we surrender so you can hand it over to the Lord of Riverrun, which is not you and will probably never be a Tully anymore..." That just doesn't make any sense to me.



I've seen it before. Supernatural has done tons of weird stuff with that concept, in addition to turning it around the other way where, in one episode, the characters from the show were transported to an alternate dimension where they were characters from a show and they ran into (themselves) the actors who played them on the show.

I think the Riverrun thing was more along the lines of:

Blackfish was outnumbered and outclassed by the Lannister/Frey army, but wanted to stand his ground, because it was his home and he would rather die than give up his noble title. His men, on the other hand, had the choice to fight for the losing side or surrender to the winning side, and likely didn't personally care either way. Keep in mind that the war of five kings was pretty much over, all five kings were dead, and there wasn't really much left for which to fight, except the Blackfish's title, which would be tied to Edmure's title, since he was the heir, and yet had no interest in the title. It might be a little confusing, but it makes sense to me in many ways. Most soldiers show up to fight for a war eager for glory and willing to stand for principle. After fighting for some time, seeing a lot of death and destruction on both sides, and getting tired of the battle, their attitudes change.

-------------------

As far as the figure of speech, I had never heard it before, but there are a lot of figures of speech I hear for the first time, almost daily.

Some of my all-time favourites:

5. "Snug as a bug in a rug"
4. "He looks like he was slapped in the face with a bag of nickels."
3. "I'll slap the taste right out of your mouth."
2. "She's got more lipstick on than a chicken's ass in pokeberry time."
1. "Slicker than pig snot on a radiator."


----------



## big_aug

Yea, it was pretty clear that the blackfish wanted to fight and die. Edmure presented the other option and they took it. The fact he was the lord of Riverrun just made it easy for them.


----------



## SD83

I get that they prefered life over a pointless death (I have a hard time understanding the Blackfishs "I'd prefer a pointless death over a purpose in life" attitude), it just seems to render the entire siege-plot pointless if they could have just sent Edmure in in the first place (unless the only purpose of that plot was to show how great Jaime suddenly is at manipulating and how the Freys are idiots). I'm no expert on medieval warfare, but I'd guess a siege is rather expensive...


----------



## big_aug

SD83 said:


> I get that they prefered life over a pointless death (I have a hard time understanding the Blackfishs "I'd prefer a pointless death over a purpose in life" attitude), it just seems to render the entire siege-plot pointless if they could have just sent Edmure in in the first place (unless the only purpose of that plot was to show how great Jaime suddenly is at manipulating and how the Freys are idiots). I'm no expert on medieval warfare, but I'd guess a siege is rather expensive...




Jaime had to convince Edmure to do it. That took place in the tent. Basically he was going to kill Edmure's family at the least. Other things may have been discussed. Jaime basically says you can get them to surrender and you all leave alive, or they can all die along with you, your wife and child you've never met. 

It doesn't help that Edmure was a captive for such a long time. He'd probably have done or said anything to be freed.

The Freys being idiots was part of it. That's why Jaime punched him in the face. They threatened to kill Edmure which was stupid. Jaimie arrived and ended it all using shadier tactics.


----------



## wankerness

SD83 said:


> Now that we're talking about books being in the books, while there are many books read within other books, I don't think I've ever seen any show or movie that has scenes where actors play actors reenact a scene those actors played. A play within a play.



I've seen it elsewhere, but I can't remember where. I feel like I've seen movies where the film ended with someone telling the story that just happened (like, the hero hearing some random mom telling their kid the story), accentuating the EPIC nature of the story. I also feel like I've seen something with time travel to the future where a character sees or hears someone telling a story to someone else and freaks out cause of how it differs from what really happened. I might just have a really active imagination. I've seen too many movies/tv shows.



bostjan said:


> 5. "Snug as a bug in a rug"



I've never heard those other 4, but my mom used to say that when I was a little tiny kid and wrapped up in sheets or something. Weird.



SD83 said:


> I get that they prefered life over a pointless death (I have a hard time understanding the Blackfishs "I'd prefer a pointless death over a purpose in life" attitude), it just seems to render the entire siege-plot pointless if they could have just sent Edmure in in the first place (unless the only purpose of that plot was to show how great Jaime suddenly is at manipulating and how the Freys are idiots). I'm no expert on medieval warfare, but I'd guess a siege is rather expensive...



They didn't send Edmure in the first place cause he was a useless idiot and he had no motivation for convincing them to surrender. The guy leading the Frey's troops was also an idiot who didn't realize that the troops there would listen to Edmure, and just gave up after the Blackfish told them he didn't care about Edmure. And finally, the only reason he was able to make the castle surrender was because of Jaime's very...motivating monologue in which he became convinced that it was either he do that or EVERYONE gets killed, including his wife and child, which I guess were not threatened before? You're right that the only real purpose of the plot seemed to be to show how great Jaime suddenly is at manipulating, but a bit of character development on one of the main characters is fine with me. 

It was sort of lame that the Blackfish just died offscreen, but from what I read it was probably due to the actor being in no shape at all to do any kind of battle scene.


----------



## inaudio

Just finished watching the ninth episode. I really, really liked it but...



Spoiler



...I was hoping that they'd outlaw flaying again by making Ramsay Bolton the last flayed man in Westeros - figuratively and literally. However, I did really like Sansa's reply to Ramsay's "They're loyal beasts" line. "They were and now they're starving" - I think she might also be referring to the direwolves, aka. the Starks.


----------



## Xaios

Well, that was glorious. Great action all around, interspersed with great dialogue and great character moments. Everything you could possibly want.



Spoiler



When Ramsey sent Rickon out running, I actually figured that he was going to send out the dogs after him. While it would have been _incredibly_ effective, I'm actually kinda glad they didn't. I couldn't have handled that, and they still managed to make it believable that Ramsey would piss Jon off enough to break formation.


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## wankerness

While it was satisfying, it hit some dramatic flat notes. Like, the super-lame "Littlefinger rides over the hill to save the day" was something I was hoping wouldn't happen cause it seemed way too obvious for a show that tends to subvert those kind of tropes, but NOPE!!! 

I also feel like Jon should have suffered more consequences for not listening to Sansa, considering he did EXACTLY what she told him not to, to the death of hundreds of CGI cannon fodder characters and Wun Wun. None of the major characters died as a result of his actions besides Wun Wun, he just won the battle anyway thanks to Deus Ex Littlefinger, which we all saw coming from a million miles away, even though the episode inexplicably gave us several scenes between Jon and Sansa in which she never gave any hint she'd contacted him, I guess to make the audience think more that it wouldn't happen.

The battle footage was all very good and I really liked what happened in Meereen, it was surprising how many effects they did there and that they advanced the plot so far. Nice to see Danaerys acting likably again and the Iron Islands thing already going somewhere instead of just being some vague "they're going to get there someday next season, and then it will take 10 episodes for them to figure out what to do!" thing like I thought it would be.

I was surprised by how santized the Ramsay death was. I figured they'd show his face get eaten off in loving detail, considering all the gore they've showed him commit against others. It ended up being far less gruesome than the season 2 face eating on the Hannibal series. I was kind of glad it didn't let Sansa get down to his ....ty level and torture him or personally chop his nuts off or something, but glad that she still kinda pulled the trigger.


----------



## Xaios

I guess it felt a little flat in retrospect, but considering how well they'd managed to sell the notion that "yup, the heroes are gonna die," what with the shield wall (an ironic reversal of not only the tactics that the Jon planned to use on Ramsey's forces, but also the outcome of the battle of Cannae) and Jon nearly getting buried under a mountain of bodies, I felt like it earned it at the time, even knowing full well that the knights of the Vale were gonna ride and save the day Return of the King style. Plus, I think it also serves another purpose: it cements the fact that, while Jon is clearly the kind of person who inspires loyalty in a fighting force, he also doesn't have what it takes to be a real leader, which effectively confirms Sansa as the new head of the Stark household and warden of the North. It actually dovetails nicely with the earlier scene between Dany and Yara where they agreed to both support each other in their respective bids to become the first female regents of their respective domains. Power to the women.


----------



## wankerness

I saw someone else comment that they thought Sansa clearly was playing Jon after he acted like such an idiot the previous night. As in, her not telling him about Littlefinger was neither a plot hole nor her being secretive just cause he told her not to. 

Either, she was waiting for most of his forces to get killed so she'd essentially consolidate power in the north (considering he's a bastard, and she knew that Rickon was dead meat anyway), or she had just lost all faith in his stupid ass (clearly justified given he acted like a stupid ass) and figured he would have gotten the Littlefinger army killed if he'd had access to them at the start of the battle. 

She sure is shaping up to be a rather badass and maybe even evil lady, and it will be cool as long as we don't have to ever see Littlefinger bang her, which the show has been threatening us with for years now  

Of course, it could just be a Helm's Deep deus ex machina stupid moment and she might not have been so canny. But I'm hoping it was Sansa being awesome.

I'm really pissed that we're probably going to have to lose Melisandre or Davos next week. I love both of those characters and the show will be less rich without them.


----------



## Xaios

Another random thought: Jon's offer to Ramsay of settling the entire affair in single combat was possibly a callback to when Jaime extended the same offer to Robb at the end of Season 1. Albeit for different reasons, both situations ended up with the same result: the guy who declined the offer because it would be foolish and reckless ends up biting it.


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## Fraz666

wankerness said:


> While it was satisfying, it hit some dramatic flat notes. Like, the super-lame "Littlefinger rides over the hill to save the day" was something I was hoping wouldn't happen cause it seemed way too obvious for a show that tends to subvert those kind of tropes, but NOPE!!!


agree.
and they came in one night, from where?


another one, the plot of 6 seasons of Daenerys is: 
"surrender to us" 
"no, you will" 
fire.


To avoid spoilers* I woke up at 2:45 to see the live broadcast, then I went back to get some sleep before work. 
Now I am satisfied but destroyed.
"What is spoiled may never spoil"


* here in Europe we see the episode the next evening that in USA so it's easy to find comments of those who saw it live or on the following morning.
like, you open facebook to make the birthday wishes to your aunt and the first thing you see is a picture of Hodor with crying emoticons...


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## big_aug

Loved it.

Jon showed he is a bad ass warrior but not a real leader. It kind of showed that a true Stark would never have been so foolish. I really hope we learn more about Jon's mother through Bran.

Sansa might end up being an extremely formidable character. It really seems we are pivoting to full on female character domination. Dany, Yara, Sansa, Arya, Cersei, etc. I like it.

Loved Dany's stuff. I do wish she'doesn't do more commanding of the Dragon instead of flying it though


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## mongey

I thought it was awesome. A little obvious in parts ? Yeah maybe. But still awesome.


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## takotakumi

Loved the episode  Specially the Meereen part with all the dragons...been wanting that for a while.

....so is Rickon the lamest/useless character from all the series?
He barely spoke or was seen in the previous seasons and contributed not much to the plot. Previous to the last arrow that nailed him, the one that "almost" hit him made me wonder if this was a game changer for him to finally do something in the story but noooo hehe


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## bostjan

It showed Sansa writing letters out of desperation. I had assumed to Littlefinger after the scene where Jon had suggested it, so, not entirely Deus ex Machina, but not exactly brilliant storytelling, either. Watch the old episodes again if you think Littlefinger came out of nowhere for no reason.

Everything up to that point was brilliant. 



Spoiler



I don't think anyone was really invested in Rickon. I was very sad about Wun Wun, though. I thought Tormund was going to buy the farm, but he ended up having the best battle scene. 

The only part that had me rolling my eyes a bit was the part where the Bolton troops so quickly surrounded the other forces, and subsequently how slowly they pushed inward.


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## extendedsolo

I loved the episode last night. I'm not a big fan of writers giving the audience what they want, but every once in a while I think it's effective. The thing about this show is that whatever happens always has consequences later. Yes Littlefinger did help Sansa, but it's not like he's going to say "welp that's that and now I'm going away!" He's in it for himself too. I think he'll end up meeting his end, just not sure how. 

I could nitpick things about last nights episode, but the good far outweighed the bad.

Any predictions for next week? I think the white walkers show up at the wall next week and Cersei firebombs kings landing and Tommen meets his maker and queen margaery takes over and gets rid of the high septon.


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## bostjan

Littlefinger is the best villain in the show, IMO. It'd be foolish to dispatch him prematurely. I think there are too many other things for him to meddle with for now.

The Dany storyline moved ahead a lot lost night, despite it being an episode 90+% about the Battle of the Bastards. I think things are fully set in motion now for a Dragon vs. Whitewalker war in Westeros. Too bad the dragons aren't called Wyverns, because, well, think of Barbara Walters saying "Wyvern / Whitewalker war in Westeros."


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## Sumsar

I really liked the latest episode, especially since I completely mindfarted and forgot about Sansa and Littlefinger, so I was actually genuine thinking that Snow and/or Thormund would die, also caugth myself thinking "Please don't let Thormund die, we need him for romantic scenes with Brienne" 

Anyway if they had actually died it would defiantly have been a really good death scene, with the drowning in fleeing comrades, and those are rare (good death scenes), so I guess they kind of wasted that one on a stupid 'fan favorite _almost_ died'-scene.

Also did they just spend 90% of this seasons budget on CGI for this episode?


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## wankerness

Probably close to that, yeah. I guess we'll see what happens next episode.


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## Xaios

That's another thing about this episode: it _looked_ really good.


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## WhiskeyPickleJake

80 real horses and more $ per episode on this one episode.. I was skeptical. It did deliver though, and finally punishment for an evil character!


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## AdamMaz

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> 80 real horses and more $ per episode on this one episode..


This is a very worthwhile watch on exactly that subject:



That shot of Jon Snow drawing his sword, in the face of horse cavalry = wow


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## big_aug

They did an excellent job following Jon throughout the whole battle. It really gave it that feeling of total chaos which is what I imagine battles like that would have been.


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## myrtorp

I thought the giant was a bit useless in the big fight. I mean when they were surrounded he could easily have snatched a few spears to get them out of the way and then stomped right through the lines and destroyed the formation from behind. Or bring a huge tree log as a weapon swatting several guys with each blow. Instead he stood there waving his arms at the weapons and killed like 2 guys overdramatically by tearing them apart (which was cool though) 

I just think that guy could have built up some momentum and crushed through the enemy crating panic and dissaray!


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## bostjan

Well, he did manage to bash through the castle gate with his bare hands in a matter of seconds. That was pretty useful. But it makes me wonder if Jon Snow even bothered thinking to bring a battering ram. I would think so, but he didn't seem to be too experienced in siege warfare.


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## big_aug

myrtorp said:


> I thought the giant was a bit useless in the big fight. I mean when they were surrounded he could easily have snatched a few spears to get them out of the way and then stomped right through the lines and destroyed the formation from behind. Or bring a huge tree log as a weapon swatting several guys with each blow. Instead he stood there waving his arms at the weapons and killed like 2 guys overdramatically by tearing them apart (which was cool though)
> 
> I just think that guy could have built up some momentum and crushed through the enemy crating panic and dissaray!



I agree with you. He should have been wielding a massive log. The fear alone that he inspired could have turned the tides. No one in Westeros has seen giants. Seeing one walk onto the field with a massive weapon would be terrifying. We have to remember that the reader/viewer is well aware of dragons, giants, white walkers, dire wolves, etc but the common people of Westeros have no experience with ANY of that. 

With a large weapon, he could have easily broken their shield wall again and again.

I was sad when he died. ....ing Ramsey Bolton. So happy a true villain got what he deserved.


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## bostjan

Looking back, Jon's attack was even more of a trainwreck than I initially thought. Before even approaching Winterfell, he should have taken a day or two to assemble some weapons. Even in a wide open field, Wun-Wun would have been totally useless without some form of weaponry. If he held a tree trunk, he would have also been able to knock down the gate much more quickly.

Some scenarios: Jon was expecting Ramsay to come and get him. That's extremely stupid. Seriously, what's the advantage in having a castle, if you are going to leave the castle in order to face an attacker? That makes as much sense as ... like, setting down your sword so you can strangle someone, or putting away your calculator so that your fingers are free to add on. Anyway, hypothetically, if Ramsay did not have Rickon, all he'd have to do is stand there. I guess Jon was counting on the Bolton troops refusing to obey orders, but since that never happened before and Jon gave little to no reason to make that happen (so Ramsay refused single combat - who is going to tell the Bolton troops that he refused single combat? Jon? And then what?). Jon really didn't seem to have any viable plan to win, even in the best situation.


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## big_aug

bostjan said:


> Looking back, Jon's attack was even more of a trainwreck than I initially thought. Before even approaching Winterfell, he should have taken a day or two to assemble some weapons. Even in a wide open field, Wun-Wun would have been totally useless without some form of weaponry. If he held a tree trunk, he would have also been able to knock down the gate much more quickly.
> 
> Some scenarios: Jon was expecting Ramsay to come and get him. That's extremely stupid. Seriously, what's the advantage in having a castle, if you are going to leave the castle in order to face an attacker? That makes as much sense as ... like, setting down your sword so you can strangle someone, or putting away your calculator so that your fingers are free to add on. Anyway, hypothetically, if Ramsay did not have Rickon, all he'd have to do is stand there. I guess Jon was counting on the Bolton troops refusing to obey orders, but since that never happened before and Jon gave little to no reason to make that happen (so Ramsay refused single combat - who is going to tell the Bolton troops that he refused single combat? Jon? And then what?). Jon really didn't seem to have any viable plan to win, even in the best situation.



And I think ot all goes to the point that Jon is not a good leader. I love him, but he is a warrior, not a commander.


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## bostjan

Yes. Absolutely.

But there is being a bad leader and just being strategically obtuse.


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## mongey

big_aug said:


> And I think ot all goes to the point that Jon is not a good leader. I love him, but he is a warrior, not a commander.



totally

Ramsay showed he was smarter tactician in battle than Jon. 

he forced Jon to meet him in open battle where he knew he had the numbers and plan to win .


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## WhiskeyPickleJake

Can't wait to see the ramifications of needing little fingers help. Maybe the walkers will come in time and none of this will matter anymore?


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## wankerness

This made me laugh a lot, and Jon definitely Leeroy'd it up here. 



(I think at this point only old farts like me know Leeroy Jenkins)


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## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> This made me laugh a lot, and Jon definitely Leeroy'd it up here.
> 
> 
> 
> (I think at this point only old farts like me know Leeroy Jenkins)




That's sad because that video is still hilarious 13 years later or whatever. 

LEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!


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## wankerness

Considering how many characters got killed off in that opening, it was curiously flat. I'm really annoyed that Margaery got wasted all these last two seasons after initially being such an interesting character. It seemed like she was plotting something when she turned all religious this season, but nope, plot thread totally negated. It's one thing to kill off characters, it's another to kill off characters while leaving plot threads open and not having character arcs. Can't say I'll miss any of the other characters, but having EVERYONE die apart from creepy magic man and the mountain makes me wonder what Cersei's even going to do next season. It's not like she's going to have more kids, what's the point of her becoming queen? I was half expecting Jaime to just axe her then and there. 

I'm relieved they didn't kill off Melisandre, as she is the best character. I hope we haven't seen the last of her.

Olenna and Varys MIGHT be enough to make Dorne non-terrible. I didn't hate that scene. I really liked that Olenna just gave the sand snakes ten tons of s*** so they couldn't talk. Speaking of Varys, what the hell was he doing on the boat with Danaerys at the end? Are they allied with the sand snakes? How did he get back there that fast? Was that a continuity error? Can he teleport?

I really liked Danaerys today. I guess I like her when she acts human instead of like some pompous oaf with a stick up her butt. Especially when she's not involved in romantic scenes with that horrible Daario character. He's been so completely uninteresting since they recast him.

I'm not surprised they finally did the Frey pies thing. They reintroduced him so recently it didn't have much impact, but I don't think anyone was sorry to see him go. I was surprised it was Arya, but that came out of nowhere and felt sorta lame.

Having Sansa say to Jon "sorry I just didn't tell you because I was embarrassed" and confirm in her talk with Littlefinger made her character stupid again. Oh well. At least she fought off Littlefinger's incredibly disgusting advances. Seeing him try to manipulate her into being his wife makes me REALLY hope she doesn't end up YET AGAIN as the hapless wife. Seeing her get it on with him would be just about as unpleasant as her with Ramsay. His creepy look at her at the Snow rally was the worst.

Bran scene = zzzzz to anyone who either reads anything about the show or is familiar with book theories. Glad they got it over with, I guess. I was relieved that wasn't the last scene.

Glad they brought back little lord badass and gave her some dialogue (I know she was there last week for a couple shots). I'm guessing she's a lot of people's favorite thing this season.

EDIT: Saw a comment from someone somewhere that said there were Martell sails in the fleet at the end of the episode, so that was why Varys was there. They REALLY needed to add someone from Dorne to the ship, or show those character in one of the shots, or something. I'm guessing there are a ton of people like me who were just like ?!


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## SD83

Well either Varys is a master of teleportation, given the distance between Meereen and Dorne apparently is somewhere around 3000 miles (and he apparently can take entire ships with him) or there is a LOT of time passing between the scenes in Meereen in episode 9 and 10 that we aren't really told about. Which wouldn't be a new thing, but I had that issue with the books as well: You really have to figure out for yourself when one thing happens relative to another, and sometimes you just don't know. Which pisses me off a bit actually.

King's Landing: Magaerys death was a bit suprising and disappointing, but whether she was plotting something or not... most people who die unexpectedly had lots of plans, and she knew who she was up against. As for Cersei... according to Tywin, she could still have more kids, but even if she had long enough to life, I doubt she would be interested. And I doubt she cares about what she's going to do. Westeros has a mad queen now. Even more so, if "the Lannisters have declared war on House Tyrell".

Which brings us to Dorne... if I remember the books correctly, Doran Martell was involved in a plot to get House Targaryan back on the Iron Throne and wanted revenge on the Lannisters for the death of his sister, so as it looks now, they dumbed it down a lot, but the basic idea is still there. And they have the Tyrells on their side as well as it seems. 

I seriously don't know what to make of Sansa. When she lied in the Eyre to protect Littlefinger, I thought she was finally playing her own games. Turned out she didn't. Now I thought the same when she brought Littlefinger to Winterfell and watched Ramsay die, and... apparently she still has no idea what she's doing. Well, at least Jon Stark is now King in the North. I never thought we'd see Lyanna Mormont smile 

So... seasons 7? I don't think we'll hear much of Essos, but apparently Bran is about to be back south of the wall soon, so we'll probably see three Starks in Winterfell and Jon will be told about his true parents. If Sansa has learned anything, Littlefinger has to die, and soon. Since he is entirely useless against the White Walkers, I don't think he'll make it, but he might get one or a few more of the "good" guys killed before.
I also don't think Cersei will make it. She has lost her mind, and I don't think Jaime will stay with her, which will lead to either his death or him going north. With support from Dorne & the Reach, I don't see how Daenaerys should have any trouble conquering Kings Landing. Unless the Ironborn actually did somehow build a thousand ships (from stones and driftwood I assume) and we'll have a huge battle of the two fleets (which we won't see because they'll need the budget for the final episodes). 
With all the "the bad guys get what they deserve" stuff going on lately, I don't see how it could end in any other way than Daenaerys Targaryan (Queen of the South) and Jon Targaryan (King in the North) fighting the White Walkers.


----------



## mongey

I thought it was a great finale. I was pleasantly surprised with aryas appearance. Didn't expect it. 

I knew cersi was gonna pull something but she def stepped up. 

Liked where it all finished. All in all I thought it was a great season , minus the hodor thing which I still think was a mistake


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## extendedsolo

SD83 said:


> I don't see how it could end in any other way than Daenaerys Targaryan (Queen of the South) and Jon Targaryan (King in the North) fighting the White Walkers.



This has been my wife's theory since she read the books. I mean it's right there in the title; A song of fire and ice. 

She also was finally proven right about Jon being a targaryen. 

I can't wait 10 months for next season but here are a few thoughts.

1)The wall is supposedly enchanted so the white walkers can't cross it. THe theory is that once Bran crosses it, he'll break the enchantment since he was touched by the night's king. The Wall is falling next season, although I'm not sure if it's literal or figurative. 

2)Cersei dies by Jamie's hand to fulfill the prophecy.

3)I think it's already been shown in the three eyed raven scene from earlier this season, but Danaerys shows up to kings landing just as winter hits or as something else blows up. I'm just curious as to which side the Lannister army takes but I"m thinking that Jamie is heel turning and will have him join up with Tyrion and that steamroller of an army that is coming. 

4)I would think at some point the White Walker army would kill a very large army to join the undead ranks.

5)Does Bran tell Jon? I think no. I think that he tells Sansa, but Jon will have to figure it out for himself somehow. I"m guessing it won't happen until Jon meets the dragons so season 8. 

6)Take this one to the bank; Bran will warg into a dragon to lay waste to the white walkers. He always had visions of flying back in the first season/book and that is what it was all along.

Also can everyone PLEASE stop saying things like "How did X character get to this place or that place so quickly." Time doesn't pass at the same rate on the show. YES IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT VARYS WENT TO DORNE AND GOT BACK BECAUSE THE SHOW HAS SHOWN NOT EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING CONCURRENTLY. I feel dumber just having thought about that complaint.



mongey said:


> minus the hodor thing which I still think was a mistake


Why? I thought that as much as it was a disappointment seeing him die it made sense.



wankerness said:


> Considering how many characters got killed off in that opening, it was curiously flat. I'm really annoyed that Margaery got wasted all these last two seasons after initially being such an interesting character. It seemed like she was plotting something when she turned all religious this season, but nope, plot thread totally negated. It's one thing to kill off characters, it's another to kill off characters while leaving plot threads open and not having character arcs. Can't say I'll miss any of the other characters, but having EVERYONE die apart from creepy magic man and the mountain makes me wonder what Cersei's even going to do next season. It's not like she's going to have more kids, what's the point of her becoming queen? I was half expecting Jaime to just axe her then and there.
> 
> I'm relieved they didn't kill off Melisandre, as she is the best character. I hope we haven't seen the last of her.
> 
> Olenna and Varys MIGHT be enough to make Dorne non-terrible. I didn't hate that scene. I really liked that Olenna just gave the sand snakes ten tons of s*** so they couldn't talk. Speaking of Varys, what the hell was he doing on the boat with Danaerys at the end? Are they allied with the sand snakes? How did he get back there that fast? Was that a continuity error? Can he teleport?
> 
> I really liked Danaerys today. I guess I like her when she acts human instead of like some pompous oaf with a stick up her butt. Especially when she's not involved in romantic scenes with that horrible Daario character. He's been so completely uninteresting since they recast him.
> 
> I'm not surprised they finally did the Frey pies thing. They reintroduced him so recently it didn't have much impact, but I don't think anyone was sorry to see him go. I was surprised it was Arya, but that came out of nowhere and felt sorta lame.
> 
> Having Sansa say to Jon "sorry I just didn't tell you because I was embarrassed" and confirm in her talk with Littlefinger made her character stupid again. Oh well. At least she fought off Littlefinger's incredibly disgusting advances. Seeing him try to manipulate her into being his wife makes me REALLY hope she doesn't end up YET AGAIN as the hapless wife. Seeing her get it on with him would be just about as unpleasant as her with Ramsay. His creepy look at her at the Snow rally was the worst.
> 
> Bran scene = zzzzz to anyone who either reads anything about the show or is familiar with book theories. Glad they got it over with, I guess. I was relieved that wasn't the last scene.
> 
> Glad they brought back little lord badass and gave her some dialogue (I know she was there last week for a couple shots). I'm guessing she's a lot of people's favorite thing this season.
> 
> EDIT: Saw a comment from someone somewhere that said there were Martell sails in the fleet at the end of the episode, so that was why Varys was there. They REALLY needed to add someone from Dorne to the ship, or show those character in one of the shots, or something. I'm guessing there are a ton of people like me who were just like ?!



Yeah I think Cersei+Jamie will be the big plot point before Daenerys shows up. It's POSSIBLE that the people revolt also. 

As far as the Maergery(seriously can't there be a normally spelled name on this show?) I think that the writers viewed her as just a pawn to prove that Cersei's ability to literally do anything will trump any well conceived plans you have. Maergery didn't see the bulldozer that is Cersei coming because she was trying to play the long game. Same with the High Septon. d
Yes they are all teamed up together (sand snakes/dorne), I thought they explained that well enough. 

I also think that when the book comes out, it will be obvious that the show took some liberties so that the plot can be advanced. I mean if the internet is to be believed there are only 14 episodes left with quite a bit to still happen. THey have to wrap up the Euron story for one.


----------



## Sumsar

It seems a bit like some writer just realized that if they wanna end this show in 1 or 2 seasons shït have to go a lot faster, which I guess explain somewhat why there seems to be a lot of 'fast forwarding' and 'teleporting' in the last couple of episodes.

So for season 7 (and 8?) we have:
1) Danayris VS the Lannisters
1.1) Someone vs Euron Greyjoy
2) Whoever wins 1) vs the white walkers (probably Danayeris)
3) Euron, vs Littlefinger vs Danarys vs Snow for the actual throne
3) A fückton of smaller plots to clean up
4) A sex scene with Brienne and Thormund
5) An ending for every character (easy one is to just let most of them die )

So now here is to a year of internet theories


----------



## Simic

Sumsar said:


> 4) A sex scene with Brienne and Thormund


----------



## vividox

I think that was the best episode of any show I've ever watched. So many amazing moments. The camerawork, music, and eeriness created by no dialog in the first several minutes set a tone like I've never seen in a show before. I'm amazed. That was incredible.


----------



## extendedsolo

vividox said:


> I think that was the best episode of any show I've ever watched. So many amazing moments. The camerawork, music, and eeriness created by no dialog in the first several minutes set a tone like I've never seen in a show before. I'm amazed. That was incredible.



It's right up there with some of the Breaking Bad episodes for me.


----------



## BillCosby

The episode was amazing. Tommen gave "King's Landing" a whole new meaning.


Also, I have seen so many people complain about Varys' ability to apparently teleport. It was a time skip. Dany and Tyrion were talking while Varys was in Dorne, and at that time the ships weren't all ready. Flash forward to the closing sequence, ships are ready and Varys had enough time to come back to Meereen before they departed.


----------



## wankerness

BillCosby said:


> The episode was amazing. Tommen gave "King's Landing" a whole new meaning.
> 
> 
> Also, I have seen so many people complain about Varys' ability to apparently teleport. It was a time skip. Dany and Tyrion were talking while Varys was in Dorne, and at that time the ships weren't all ready. Flash forward to the closing sequence, ships are ready and Varys had enough time to come back to Meereen before they departed.



If so many people missed that I'd say it's a problem with the episode, and not viewer comprehension. They never once on the show said "it's 3000 miles to Dorne," so I don't know how you think people are stupid for not knowing that it's impossible for Varys to get to the ships quickly and thus are stupid for not realizing this must be months later. This show has so many people crossing vast distances instantly (for example, relative to all the other events the last two episodes, apparently Arya got from Braavos to the Twins in about 2 days?) that we aren't trained to expect months to pass if they don't TELL US or have any sort of hint that time has passed whatsoever beyond "characters travelled vast distances." It was right after the show had Jamie getting back in time for the funeral of Tommen, which again some people are saying must have been a month, since that's how long it takes to get back from where he was. However, I sure didn't know that, and would have expected the funeral to be right after his death, not a month later!  Also considering they had no hint at all that Varys was there WITH Dorne other than if you know what the Martell banners look like (I sure don't).

A lot of people are thinking Danaerys is going to go the path of all her relatives and go nuts and start blowing up her allies at some point in the next two seasons, because there's way too much time left for her side to just be united for the next two seasons, and this show really likes shocking betrayals.


----------



## WhiskeyPickleJake

Even for a show that shocks us regularly, the ability and execution of Cersei's role was staggering. When was the last time one single character exacted that momentus a change? Not just in short term, or her immediate control of the throne, but in severing the entire power the church was about to have on the history of Kings Landing? She stopped a hundred year power shift in one episode with one mildly orchestrated act.


----------



## extendedsolo

WhiskeyPickleJake said:


> Even for a show that shocks us regularly, the ability and execution of Cersei's role was staggering. When was the last time one single character exacted that momentus a change? Not just in short term, or her immediate control of the throne, but in severing the entire power the church was about to have on the history of Kings Landing? She stopped a hundred year power shift in one episode with one mildly orchestrated act.



The week before when the Danerys owned the Masters?


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> If so many people missed that I'd say it's a problem with the episode, and not viewer comprehension



They have clearly said that there are time leaps in between scenes very frequently, and that not every scene you see is in strict chronological order with the rest of their episodes. They decided to not show the dates of particular goings on because they'd have to stick a title card on literally every scene change, in every episode. They prioritize keeping their plots moving over maintaining a slavish devotion to some imaginary timeline. 

Littlefinger seemed to teleport the most because he is rarely a viewpoint character and would only crop up in other character's stories with no scenes of him in between. Arya's story was very, very far removed from anybody else's - last time she crossed over with somebody tied to a main plot was when she killed Meryn Trant last season. Her whole story could have been resolved in just a couple months after that, leading to her getting back to Westoros well before anything else we've seen lately. She had plenty of time to travel. 



wankerness said:


> Considering how many characters got killed off in that opening, it was curiously flat. I'm really annoyed that Margaery got wasted all these last two seasons after initially being such an interesting character. It seemed like she was plotting something when she turned all religious this season, but nope, plot thread totally negated. It's one thing to kill off characters, it's another to kill off characters while leaving plot threads open and not having character arcs.



There is no open threads there. Everybody died. It's a nice move to see the writers set up a plot arc like a character is going to live forever, then remind us we are watching Game of Thrones by offing a popular character right when it looked like they were cooking up something awesome. 



> Can't say I'll miss any of the other characters, but having EVERYONE die apart from creepy magic man and the mountain makes me wonder what Cersei's even going to do next season. It's not like she's going to have more kids, what's the point of her becoming queen?



To finish Jaime's character arc. Now I see how they've decided to differentiate it from Book Jaime. Going to work out just as well, I think. 



> Bran scene = zzzzz to anyone who either reads anything about the show or is familiar with book theories. Glad they got it over with, I guess. I was relieved that wasn't the last scene.



They turned a 20 year old theory into confirmed fact and that's boring? They kill like a dozen named characters in the first 15 minutes and that's curiously flat? Man oh man


----------



## SD83

extendedsolo said:


> The week before when the Danerys owned the Masters?



Everybody knew that the Masters wouldn't stand a chance against the dragons & the Dothraki, and the death of two of the masters was more of a conclusion to an ongoing war... I sure didn't expect Cerseis attack to be that effective. Every single one of her enemies in King's Landing, who seemed to have the upper hand until that second, wiped out at once... and it totally changed the direction that storyline is going (at least to me), whereas Danys victory was just the what the logical conclusion to that storylin.


----------



## mongey

extendedsolo said:


> Why? I thought that as much as it was a disappointment seeing him die it made sense.
> 
> 
> 
> .




I think the hodor thing had too many loose threads . past/future bran and hodor warging all over the place. Me and my wife disagreed on it, she liked the twist allot , and we watched that episodes 3 times and talked though it . suffice to say we don't see it the same and gave up discussing it


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> *They have clearly said *that there are time leaps in between scenes very frequently, and that not every scene you see is in strict chronological order with the rest of their episodes. They decided to not show the dates of particular goings on because they'd have to stick a title card on literally every scene change, in every episode. They prioritize keeping their plots moving over maintaining a slavish devotion to some imaginary timeline.




Who has? The show runners, in interviews and not the show itself? I don't see why viewers of a show should be expected to watch behind the scenes material to be able to know the timeline. I haven't seen an interview with them since probably season 2's bonus materials, so I can't say I remember anything they had to say. If there's actually been anything on the show, I'd be curious to know where it was. I've rewatched the first three seasons but not the last three, and I last rewatched them before 4 aired, so it's been a while.

You're right about plot strands being unresolved. I can get behind that. Margaery may have been cleverly planning some long game and the sparrow might have had more to do, but that doesn't matter when one psycho just blows everything the f up. I turned around on that criticism.



sakeido said:


> They turned a 20 year old theory into confirmed fact and that's boring?



It's boring to me. I'm sure plenty of people are excited by it.



sakeido said:


> They kill like a dozen named characters in the first 15 minutes and that's curiously flat? Man oh man



It was filmed in a flat way. I wasn't excited by it. Especially Tommen flatly jumping out the window. That was kind of the point, but it just didn't get me to go HOLY .... OH MAN OH MAN like it seems half the internet did. I was more like "ugh, are they really going to do this? I'd rather watch Margaery scheme around. Oh well, guess that's that." If other people loved it, good for them. Also, "man oh man" isn't a counterpoint, just a snide dismissal!

Speaking of things that were lame, I forgot there even was a Sam scene!

Overall pretty good finale, but it didn't really get me that hyped besides Olenna taking a dump on the sand snakes, Lyanna being awesome, and that Danaerys/Tyrion scene. If other people liked it, good for them. Overall I'd rate this season as much better than last.


----------



## mongey

I think the Tommen scene was pretty much played perfectly . I liked how they let it hang. everyone knew he was going to do it when he walked away but they gave it time to breathe and sink in . In season of big shocks I thought it was clever film making to play it that way 

Sam is my least favorite stroyline by far and I liked what they did with the citadel scene in terms of Sams scenes 

Cersi followed the art of war handbook that even if you are facing insurmountable odds if you are willing to do the unthinkable ,which is way beyond what your opponents will do , you have power .take your opponents rules and break them


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Overall I'd rate this season as much better than last.



Geez I should go back and read what you said about last season. You've been regularly shredding this season.


----------



## wankerness

extendedsolo said:


> Geez I should go back and read what you said about last season. You've been regularly shredding this season.



I don't know what I said about it. I just remember having a feeling almost every week like "man, this show is REALLY going downhill compared to previous seasons," and I kinda had the same feeling in season 4, but to a lesser extent that time. I don't think I posted that I was feeling that way at any point, but maybe I did! This season, on the other hand, I was always thinking "this is way better than last season." I think just about every single episode this season was better than the entirety of last season. I didn't even bother buying the blu-ray of season 5, when I'd preordered the previous four. I'll get it when it hits the discount bin and then give the season a second shot. I liked 4 a lot more on rewatch than I did while it aired.

I like sections of every episode and dislike sections of almost every episode. I don't think that qualifies as "shredding." When they have multiple plotlines going and some suck, it's kind of unavoidable. Even season 1, which was definitely the best season so far (probably due to having the most focused source material and the most adherence to it), had stuff I disliked like Daenaerys's brother getting all rapey with her, Littlefinger directing prostitutes to have sex with each other as some kind of political metaphor, Catelyn doing well...just about anything, etc.  I guess I don't find "The Chris Farley Show"-style posts to lead to any discussion I want to read or have! That's what you do in bars or when talking to hot chicks that like the show.


----------



## bostjan

Did you see "Terminator"?

That was a pretty awesome flick. ... OK... remember... you remember when you were on Game of Thrones, and you were supposed to be dead, and..., uh..., there was all these clues..., that..., like..., uh..., you played some episode backwards, and it'd say..., like, "Jon Is Dead", and..., uh, everyone thought that you were dead? That was..., um..., a hoax, right?


----------



## wankerness

Haha, that was good. I was thinking more like the Paul Mccartney episode where he was just like "remember when you did x? that was awesome." over and over, but that sure works too!

Speaking of GOT, I just met a new coworker this morning, whose FIRST small talk question was "do you watch Game of Thrones" and then excitedly discussed it for a good ten minutes before we talked about anything work related. I wonder if I look like a huge nerd, or if this is just the new normal! 

It was awesome.


----------



## big_aug

I finally got to watch it tonight. I've been isolated in the hospital so I had no spoilers and such thank God

I liked this episode so much. It was awesome. Cersei proved once again that she is completely ruthless. I thought that entire scene was fantastic. Maergery was indeed clever enough to know something was wrong, but the high sparrow was arrogant to the last moment. I really liked that because I hated him. It was definitely a massive event that set the tone for the whole episode. 

Tommenn's suicide was done well. We all saw it coming. I thought there were going to be running footsteps and he'd throw himself out. I liked that he calmly walked out. Jaime has transformed so much and so often. I go back and forth between liking him and disliking him every other episode. The look he gave Cersei made me like him again. Perhaps he shall be the King and Queen Slayer.

I had always suspected something about Jon's true parents. The way Ned so vigorously defended Jon's mother and never gave any details about her always had me craving more information. It also makes me love Ned even more. He faced the dishonor of taking his bastard home and living with him for nearly two decades and allowed Jon to suffer it himself for years to do the right thing. I miss Ned. Too honorable for his own good. Maybe Daenarys will marry to another member of her family as she had always thought she would until Viserys was killed?

Daenarys and Tyrion are a good pair. I definitely like Daenarys so much more when she has Tyrion around. I can't imagine what madness we'll see when they arrive in Kings Landing to find Cersei queen again.

The only thing I didn't care for as much was the Davos/Melisandre confrontation. It felt a little forced to me. Not terrible though.

I can't wait for next season.


----------



## chopeth

big_aug said:


> The look he gave Cersei made me like him again. Perhaps he shall be the King and Queen Slayer.



In that scene, I think he might be considering being Kingslayer again.


----------



## bostjan

Maybe Jamie will become the Kinslayer. [/dadpuns]

I think the show might now feel like it is at the point Breaking Bad was at late in its run, where the stuff that is about to play out seems overall predictable. We know Dany is going to slam into Westeros, we know the White Walkers are going to slam into Westeros, and we know the White Walkers will be beaten by Dragons. We strongly suspect Bran will warg into a dragon, and it will be awesome. We all know Cersei is going to buy the farm. We all know the Hound will once again become relevant to the story somehow, probably redeeming himself. The kinds of open questions are:

1. Will the Hounds redemption be sacrificial? I.e., will he die in the course of redeeming himself as a good character? My bet is yes.
2. What role will Jamie play? He's a great character, because he is so messed up. He is almost perfectly straddling the fence between good and evil. I think he will ultimately play out to be an incredible anti-hero, or perhaps even more complex as an anti-villain.
3. Which other characters will die? I think it's safe to say that most non-central named characters will eat it before the show closes, but some will survive. These characters would be people like Sam, Davos, Jorah (if he makes it much further), Tormund, Brienne, Podrick, Missandei (sp?), Theon, Theon's sister Asha or Yara, Varys, etc.
4. Will the remaining Starks all survive? I would not be surprised if we lose one more by the end.
6. What will Tyrion do? I can only imagine his wit is going to be tested in a way we have never seen.
7. Littlefinger seems to be pretty much revealed as the main villain in the north. I think when the White Walkers come, he will step up the pace of his antics somehow.


----------



## extendedsolo

chopeth said:


> In that scene, I think he might be considering being Kingslayer again.



I can't see it ending any other way than him defeating the mountain, which would make sense as it establishes him as a great sword fighter again. He's been doubting himself ever since he lost his hand. Then he kills Cersei. I'm not sure where it goes from there, maybe he just rides off into the sunset John Wayne style?


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> I can't see it ending any other way than him defeating the mountain, which would make sense as it establishes him as a great sword fighter again. He's been doubting himself ever since he lost his hand. Then he kills Cersei. I'm not sure where it goes from there, maybe he just rides off into the sunset John Wayne style?



Hopefully we would get to see him ride North and fight the White Walkers. I, personally, would like to see some sort of battle with everyone left standing versus the White Walkers. It could be interesting seeing old enemies fighting together against a much greater evil.

Either that, or the White Walkers kill everyone and bring back Ned Stark as a Zombie to be the true King of the North.


----------



## big_aug

bostjan said:


> Either that, or the White Walkers kill everyone and bring back Ned Stark as a Zombie to be the true King of the North.



Love it


----------



## chopeth

extendedsolo said:


> I can't see it ending any other way than him defeating the mountain, which would make sense as it establishes him as a great sword fighter again. He's been doubting himself ever since he lost his hand. Then he kills Cersei. I'm not sure where it goes from there, maybe he just rides off into the sunset John Wayne style?



Or.. we have a big fight to death (obviously only for the first) between The Hound and The Mountain... that would be awesome too


----------



## Skyblue

I think everyone's missing the real question here- will Brienne and Tormund F*ck? 
Best couple in the show. 

I liked the episode. The season in general felt a bit weak, but the 2 last episodes were pretty good. 
- The Dorne scene crushed my hopes that a meteor crashed and killed everyone there but oh well, at lease Olenna was there to make fun of them. 
- Beginning scene was good (I didn't feel the need to see Lancel drag himself all the way to the candle personally) and I liked Tommen's suicide. Cerci continuing her traditional action first, thinking later method. I really hope Jamie kills her. He might finally go back to being interesting. 
- Sam is alive! Damnit. 
- I personally hated Arya's plot this season. They dragged us through so much time of dead-people-washing and blind-fighting to finally make her go all "wait nevermind I'm actually Aria Stark" and Jaqen goes all "yeah cool you're no one now". What? How is she no-one? And is he honestly cool with her just walking away and killing whoever she wants using their secret techniques? And now that she became a freaking man-baking psycopath, they better not just make her all "the ol' Arya you know and love", 'cause tha'll mean the whole Braavos arc meant nothing. 
- R+L=J. Cool. I really think Daenerys will arrive in westeros, marry Jon for political reasons (king in the north and all), hopefully they'll f*ck just to make it funnier, and eventually find out they're cousins. Whoops! 
- So They brought back The Hound this season to... have him show us his dick and that's about it. I really hope he won't turn into a good guy- it just doesn't fit his character in my view. We'll probably get to see a Hound/Mountain battle. My Money's on the Hound, zombie-mountain is boring anyway. 

I think that's about it... Now we wait for next season. 

Also, best ending idea for the show ever: Benjen (Cough deuxexmachina cough) mentioned the wall has all kinds of special spells on it to prevent the dead from passing- So just imagine the giant united Westerosi army on one side of the wall, the White Walkers are showing up with their huge undead army, they findout the can't pass through, the Night King goes all "F*ck this, I'm going home", the end.


----------



## flexkill

I thought the last episode sucked....BAD!


----------



## extendedsolo

chopeth said:


> Or.. we have a big fight to death (obviously only for the first) between The Hound and The Mountain... that would be awesome too



I heard a theory that the Brotherhood is going to join up with Danaerys and the Hound will be the answer to Cersei's zombie mountain. When they fight Cersei, the showdown will take place.


----------



## myrtorp

I personally hoped the giant armoured guard guy would kill more people this season, oh well hopefully he gets some more nice kills next one!


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> I heard a theory that the Brotherhood is going to join up with Danaerys and the Hound will be the answer to Cersei's zombie mountain. When they fight Cersei, the showdown will take place.



Sounds very logical. The show seems to be taking a more traditional turn lately.


----------



## chopeth




----------



## extendedsolo

chopeth said:


>




yes! I wonder if they are going to do like breaking bad did where they do half and half of the season? I cannot wait for the white walker scenes.


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> yes! I wonder if they are going to do like breaking bad did where they do half and half of the season? I cannot wait for the white walker scenes.



I thought that was pretty much already established. 

As someone who read most of the books and watched the show so far, I am pretty mixed about this. I would have preferred the books to have been available first, or, at the same time.

Overall, I think the show is better than the books. I enjoyed much of the books, but they can really drag at times. The show does a much better job pacing itself, but there are some drawbacks with the characters and some other things left out or changed (perhaps a lot, we'll see)...

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that I'll watch the show, and then probably either have no motivation at all to read the final books, or read them and be sorely disappointed for whatever reason.

But on the other hand, it feels that I have so much time invested in this story that there is no way that I won't want to see the conclusion of it. The show is seemingly in 90%+ uncharted territory (from the books) this upcoming season. Last season had some huge epic level astronomical spoilers in it for book readers.


----------



## chopeth

extendedsolo said:


> yes! I wonder if they are going to do like breaking bad did where they do half and half of the season? I cannot wait for the white walker scenes.



I also much more exited about the show than with the books, I lost interest after the first three, thousand of flaws that ruined the good pace. The series have a lot better groove in my opinion.

They are not going to do half and half. I've read 7th season is going to be shorter, like 7 episodes, so as 8th (and last season). The delay is due to the coming of winter in the plot, they needed coldest scenarios and had to wait for it, that's why this year we'll have to wait to July, it's going to be great to watch it in the 40ºC chilly Spain summer. 

By the way, last week I went to the young Ned Stark castle scenario from last season, very close to my girl's place, very nice one


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> Overall, I think the show is better than the books.



Wow, I couldn't disagree more. The show suffers tremendously from the cascading avalanche of butterfly effects from changes that result in silly unnecessary plot holes and outright terrible writing. The worst you can say about the books is FFC/DWD gets a little long-winded.

That all being said, the show is still good and I'm definitely watching until conclusion. But I'm definitely anticipating the books way more than the show.


----------



## wankerness

There are a lot of worse things you can say about the books besides "the last two are long-winded." ALL of them are long-winded to the point of parody (oh, here's 5 pages on their clothes and what threads were in them! Oh, Tyrion's at a feast? HERE ARE FIVE PAGES OF WHAT FOOD WAS THERE!) and loaded with stuff that's even more lurid, laughable and ridiculous than the show (ex, the red wedding, the leering details of everything with the much younger Danaerys getting boned, or practically any descriptions of sex from the woman's perspective for that matter).

I respect the general story and the world he created, but it's buried under tons of crap. The show isn't superior, especially after season 3 where it started to become laughable itself (the details of Tyrion/Tywin/Jaime in the S4 finale are just WTF in terms of what they threw out), but it did sometimes feel like a better telling of some of the same events in the earlier seasons.


----------



## IGC

chopeth said:


> I also much more exited about the show than with the books, I lost interest after the first three, thousand of flaws that ruined the good pace. The series have a lot better groove in my opinion.
> 
> They are not going to do half and half. I've read 7th season is going to be shorter, like 7 episodes, so as 8th (and last season). The delay is due to the coming of winter in the plot, they needed coldest scenarios and had to wait for it, that's why this year we'll have to wait to July, it's going to be great to watch it in the 40ºC chilly Spain summer.
> 
> By the way, last week I went to the young Ned Stark castle scenario from last season, very close to my girl's place, very nice one



Love game of thrones series, this is really sweet, where is it?


----------



## chopeth

IGC said:


> Love game of thrones series, this is really sweet, where is it?



Spain

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_Zafra_(Guadalajara)


----------



## Lorcan Ward

wankerness said:


> The show isn't superior, especially after season 3 where it started to become laughable itself (the details of Tyrion/Tywin/Jaime in the S4 finale are just WTF in terms of what they threw out), but it did sometimes feel like a better telling of some of the same events in the earlier seasons.



I stopped watching the show after S4/5 because things like this really started to annoy me(and I was hopelessly waiting for books 6 + 7). Season 1 + 2 are fantastic and in some areas definitely a better execution of the book plots but the writing and directing became very inconsistent after that. Straying away from the source material had pros and cons. Dorne being one of the worst examples and Hardhome being one of the best imo. 

They've always been on a very tight budget but their resources got stretched way too thin the last few seasons. Some parts ended up looking amazing(Battle for Castle Black, anything in King's Landing, Winterfell) while things like Dorne where the fight choreography was laughably bad because the A team tied up filming Hardhome. Its good to hear that they've cut down the number of episodes so they don't have to allocate so much to the hyped up 9th episode. 

At this stage its very unlikely the next book will be out so the show may be the only resolution to the story.


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> There are a lot of worse things you can say about the books besides "the last two are long-winded." ALL of them are long-winded to the point of parody (oh, here's 5 pages on their clothes and what threads were in them! Oh, Tyrion's at a feast? HERE ARE FIVE PAGES OF WHAT FOOD WAS THERE!) and loaded with stuff that's even more lurid, laughable and ridiculous than the show (ex, the red wedding, the leering details of everything with the much younger Danaerys getting boned, or practically any descriptions of sex from the woman's perspective for that matter).
> 
> I respect the general story and the world he created, but it's buried under tons of crap. The show isn't superior, especially after season 3 where it started to become laughable itself (the details of Tyrion/Tywin/Jaime in the S4 finale are just WTF in terms of what they threw out), but it did sometimes feel like a better telling of some of the same events in the earlier seasons.


I feel like that stuff gets overstated. Obviously when you say "HERE ARE FIVE PAGES OF WHAT FOOD WAS THERE!" you are using some heavy hyperbole, but the actual one or two paragraphs serve a real purpose in setting the tone of a scene based on what adjectives he's using to describe the food. As you read about food you are getting a sense of regal or bleak depending on the description. I have no problem with this kind of exposition, in fact it's way better than most of the exposition (or complete lack thereof) in most popular series these days, but mass popularity brings out the haters and they have to fixate on something.

I will throw out a caveat: I worship ASOIAF. It's probably my favorite fantasy series of all time and I've read through it probably half a dozen times. I do have a tendency to turn into a fanboi apologist on the subject.


----------



## extendedsolo

Lorcan Ward said:


> At this stage its very unlikely the next book will be out so the show may be the only resolution to the story.



I'm willing to bet that they finish the show and then release the book. If GRRM dies before that happens I'm betting they will have someone come in and write the book for him. There is too much money to be made for the book to just not happen ever.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> I feel like that stuff gets overstated. Obviously when you say "HERE ARE FIVE PAGES OF WHAT FOOD WAS THERE!" you are using some heavy hyperbole, but the actual one or two paragraphs serve a real purpose in setting the tone of a scene based on what adjectives he's using to describe the food. As you read about food you are getting a sense of regal or bleak depending on the description. I have no problem with this kind of exposition, in fact it's way better than most of the exposition (or complete lack thereof) in most popular series these days, but mass popularity brings out the haters and they have to fixate on something.
> 
> I will throw out a caveat: I worship ASOIAF. It's probably my favorite fantasy series of all time and I've read through it probably half a dozen times. I do have a tendency to turn into a fanboi apologist on the subject.



I agree all around. I wasn't trying to say that the books were awful, nor that the show is perfect. Some things that were altered from the book to the show really irk me, but some things in the books are a little...umm...campy?

Ultimately, there could be a good chance that the novels will deviate significantly from the show in the way things wrap up. But there is a chance that we won't have the novelization of the ending for a decade or more.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

I can say now that while I'm awaiting the next book(s), the show is doing enough to hold me over for now. But if you're looking for something else to read, Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss are excellent authors who put out great work, so might give them a shot if you need your reading itch scratched.


----------



## sawtoothscream

They have to many stories going on imo. Get a little of each and not enough to make most of them good. 

Last season was ok but no where near the first two


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^You should see the amount of content they have had to completely leave out. There are two other major late game players that had to get the axe. 



extendedsolo said:


> I'm willing to bet that they finish the show and then release the book. If GRRM dies before that happens I'm betting they will have someone come in and write the book for him. There is too much money to be made for the book to just not happen ever.



He has heavily implied a few times in recent years that the story ends with him so the future of the books won't be the same as The Wheel of Time if the worse happens. There is no "they", its just George since he owns the rights and thats why he can take all the time in the world with releasing new books. In less than 18 months the show will have finished his story and firmly put and end to anymore books. We are all still hoping for a miracle somehow.


----------



## vividox

The show finishing up isn't going to put an end to anymore books. The show and the books can hardly even be considered the same story anymore.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> The show finishing up isn't going to put an end to anymore books. The show and the books can hardly even be considered the same story anymore.



I wouldn't be surprised if the ending of the show is more accurate to the ending of the books than the rest of the show since the second season. 

Still, though, out of all of the books adapted to television series, this one seems to be more faithful than most. Think for a moment about Dexter, True Blood, Hannibal, etc. None of these shows seem to be able to go without killing someone off who isn't supposed to be dead, for example.


----------



## extendedsolo

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^You should see the amount of content they have had to completely leave out. There are two other major late game players that had to get the axe.
> 
> 
> 
> He has heavily implied a few times in recent years that the story ends with him so the future of the books won't be the same as The Wheel of Time if the worse happens. There is no "they", its just George since he owns the rights and thats why he can take all the time in the world with releasing new books. In less than 18 months the show will have finished his story and firmly put and end to anymore books. We are all still hoping for a miracle somehow.



So after GRRM passes, which may be 30 years from now, they still won't release a book? Haven't we all learned by now that when it comes to entertainment produced and making money that nothing is sacred.


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> So after GRRM passes, which may be 30 years from now, they still won't release a book? Haven't we all learned by now that when it comes to entertainment produced and making money that nothing is sacred.



Who is "they?"

Copyright law protects the characters and the name of the book franchise for quite a few decades (70 years, or more) after the death of the author. If GRRM died in 2013, copyright law would protect anyone from using his characters until no sooner than 2087 without permission from whomever took ownership of the IP.

So, 30 years, no.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wankerness said:


> There are a lot of worse things you can say about the books besides "the last two are long-winded." ALL of them are long-winded to the point of parody (oh, here's 5 pages on their clothes and what threads were in them! Oh, Tyrion's at a feast? HERE ARE FIVE PAGES OF WHAT FOOD WAS THERE!) and loaded with stuff that's even more lurid, laughable and ridiculous than the show (ex, the red wedding, the leering details of everything with the much younger Danaerys getting boned, or practically any descriptions of sex from the woman's perspective for that matter).
> 
> I respect the general story and the world he created, but it's buried under tons of crap. The show isn't superior, especially after season 3 where it started to become laughable itself (the details of Tyrion/Tywin/Jaime in the S4 finale are just WTF in terms of what they threw out), but it did sometimes feel like a better telling of some of the same events in the earlier seasons.



you want lurid, overly detailed descriptions try reading some Anne Rice. It's what makes up 90% of Interview with A Vampire or Vampire Lestat. GRRM is much more concise than Anne Rice will ever be.  Neither are as bad as Tolkien when he starts rambling about the 800th year of glyfgyfanning the fairy king or making stupid songs for filler in LOTR.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

You can call those songs filler if you want, but to me, they add yet another edge to Tolkien. Elves after all are musical creatures and it would be a shame not to show that side of them.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

PunkBillCarson said:


> You can call those songs filler if you want, but to me, they add yet another edge to Tolkien. Elves after all are musical creatures and it would be a shame not to show that side of them.



It wouldn't be a problem if it was here or there but it feels like all he wants to do for the first 2 books is talk about tom bombadil and write songs/poems every couple of pages. Let alone the fact that he spent like 10 pages talking about bilbo's birthday.


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> Who is "they?"
> 
> Copyright law protects the characters and the name of the book franchise for quite a few decades (70 years, or more) after the death of the author. If GRRM died in 2013, copyright law would protect anyone from using his characters until no sooner than 2087 without permission from whomever took ownership of the IP.
> 
> So, 30 years, no.



Who owns GoT if GRRM dies? Has he explicitly said that no he doesn't want another book written if the show finishes? 

Pardon my cynicism that GRRM or the owner of his work after he passes won't find a way to take money this is hypothetically sitting on the table by releasing another book from a series that has sold 60 million copies.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

It would have been hilarious to see Hugo Weaving sing "Come! Tra-la-la-lally!
Come back to the valley!" in the Hobbit. 



vividox said:


> The show finishing up isn't going to put an end to anymore books. The show and the books can hardly even be considered the same story anymore.



This is hard to explain quickly but their are pages upon pages of posts on the various ASOIAF forums about this aswell as on his own blog. In short he's been in a lot of trouble and stuck in a rut for the past 17 years trying to get the story moving after ASOS. The result was two split books that had very divided opinions which he admits was a mistake. He has been writing the latest book for 10+ years now and completely lost track of time when the HBO show started. He thought the show would be 8-10 seasons with a movie or two and started panicking when he found out it was only 7 seasons, HBO even had to release statements saying what George is saying is not true and there aren't plans for a film. He cancelled all his optional appearances and tours, dropped all his other projects apart from Wild Cards and set himself a deadline to get the book out in 2016 and the next out in 2018 but again admitted he didn't come close and he can't work like that. 

The pressure he is under is immense and the constant back lash from fans is only making things worse, when the show "spoils" the ending it will be much much worse to the point many believe he will barely get TWOW out and after he will just give up, there are 2 maybe even 3 massive books left which is quite a daunting task considering it can take 5-10 years to complete one. I hope this is wrong but we will wait and see what happens, right now things are not looking good since the current book has been in the works for 10+ years and a colossal s**tstorm is going to happen when the show finishes first.


----------



## bostjan

KnightBrolaire said:


> you want lurid, overly detailed descriptions try reading some Anne Rice. It's what makes up 90% of Interview with A Vampire or Vampire Lestat. GRRM is much more concise than Anne Rice will ever be.  Neither are as bad as Tolkien when he starts rambling about the 800th year of glyfgyfanning the fairy king or making stupid songs for filler in LOTR.



Putting "GRRM" and "concise" in the same sentence is laughable.

Have you read his books?

He's not the worst I've seen, but he's inarguably much more long-winded than the average writer.

JRR Tolkein - sure, he's also long-winded at times, but you can't argue that his stories didn't go somewhere in the process. At this point in time, it's still up in the air as to whether GRRM's narrative will ever go anywhere. In fact, several main characters die without their stories ever wrapping up. The fact that a long-winded story gets somewhere means that it's objectively less rambling than one that goes nowhere.

Also, look at the length of the manuscripts as a stark contrast in how "concise" the two are. One is long and finished, whereas the other is exponentially longer and yet unfinished. ...which is why we are having this conversation in the first place.



extendedsolo said:


> Who owns GoT if GRRM dies? Has he explicitly said that no he doesn't want another book written if the show finishes?
> 
> Pardon my cynicism that GRRM or the owner of his work after he passes won't find a way to take money this is hypothetically sitting on the table by releasing another book from a series that has sold 60 million copies.



Actually, according to his last will and testament, no one gets to take ownership of his books, and HBO already has control over the show. So, if he dies, in accordance with his will, no more books. If anyone releases a book, his estate will probably sue. Also, with no torch passed, anyone who writes the sequel book will be doing so unofficially.

You can be cynical all you want, but the law is the law, so, if GRRM dies before finishing the last book, there will officially be no last book.

He's 68 and doesn't appear to be in the finest health. Assuming he's almost done with one book, it'd be a conservative estimate to say that the soonest the final book will be done will be 7-8 years from now. If stays healthy and sharp up until he's 76, and stays very focused on the task, then it'll get there, but I don't think the odds really look spectacular right now.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the ending of the show is more accurate to the ending of the books than the rest of the show since the second season.
> 
> Still, though, out of all of the books adapted to television series, this one seems to be more faithful than most. Think for a moment about Dexter, True Blood, Hannibal, etc. None of these shows seem to be able to go without killing someone off who isn't supposed to be dead, for example.



Agree with both points. But still, people act like the books are ruined now because the show has overtaken them. As a total book nerd, I completely disagree with that.


----------



## vividox

Lorcan Ward said:


> This is hard to explain quickly but their are pages upon pages of posts on the various ASOIAF forums about this aswell as on his own blog. In short he's been in a lot of trouble and stuck in a rut for the past 17 years trying to get the story moving after ASOS. The result was two split books that had very divided opinions which he admits was a mistake. He has been writing the latest book for 10+ years now and completely lost track of time when the HBO show started. He thought the show would be 8-10 seasons with a movie or two and started panicking when he found out it was only 7 seasons, HBO even had to release statements saying what George is saying is not true and there aren't plans for a film. He cancelled all his optional appearances and tours, dropped all his other projects apart from Wild Cards and set himself a deadline to get the book out in 2016 and the next out in 2018 but again admitted he didn't come close and he can't work like that.
> 
> The pressure he is under is immense and the constant back lash from fans is only making things worse, when the show "spoils" the ending it will be much much worse to the point many believe he will barely get TWOW out and after he will just give up, there are 2 maybe even 3 massive books left which is quite a daunting task considering it can take 5-10 years to complete one. I hope this is wrong but we will wait and see what happens, right now things are not looking good since the current book has been in the works for 10+ years and a colossal s**tstorm is going to happen when the show finishes first.



Speaking as someone who contributes to the pages upon pages of posts on AFOIAF, I'd say that's a fairly accurate summary. But the people who are saying he's just going to give up when the GoT ending drops don't have a very good bead on it, either. That's just pessimistic speculation.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> At this point in time, it's still up in the air as to whether GRRM's narrative will ever go anywhere. In fact, several main characters die without their stories ever wrapping up. The fact that a long-winded story gets somewhere means that it's objectively less rambling than one that goes nowhere.



This is cynical beyond reason. You can't possibly say the narrative in ASOIAF hasn't gone anywhere. Or that it's not going anywhere. Or that the pieces needed for an endgame aren't in place.

I get that people are frustrated, but the vitriol aimed at an epic fantasy being long-winded is ridiculous.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> This is cynical beyond reason. You can't possibly say the narrative in ASOIAF hasn't gone anywhere. Or that it's not going anywhere. Or that the pieces needed for an endgame aren't in place.
> 
> I get that people are frustrated, but the vitriol aimed at an epic fantasy being long-winded is ridiculous.



Pieces needed for an endgame being in place is very different, though, from an endgame being in place.

If you guys want to compare JRR Tolkein with GRR Martin and say Tolkein is just rambling and excessive irrelevant details, and Martin is concise and to the point, then I want to know which books you are reading and what substances were involved with reading one that weren't involved with reading the other.

And, for the record, I enjoyed reading ASoIaF, but I am a bigger fan of the LotR books. Maybe my opinion is too subjective, but I think I have clear objective reasons to disagree with KnightBrolaire's slam against JRRT.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> Pieces needed for an endgame being in place is very different, though, from an endgame being in place.
> 
> If you guys want to compare JRR Tolkein with GRR Martin and say Tolkein is just rambling and excessive irrelevant details, and Martin is concise and to the point, then I want to know which books you are reading and what substances were involved with reading one that weren't involved with reading the other.
> 
> And, for the record, I enjoyed reading ASoIaF, but I am a bigger fan of the LotR books. Maybe my opinion is too subjective, but I think I have clear objective reasons to disagree with KnightBrolaire's slam against JRRT.



I'm equally as critical of someone saying JRRT is long-winded, FWIW. As I said in my response to your post, vitriol aimed at epic fantasy for being long-winded is ridiculous. LOTR is a beautiful book, songs and birthday parties included. ASOIAF is a beautiful book, food descriptions and Brienne travel logs included. There is really no reason to be hyper-critical of either, as both are amazing. (ASOIAF is way better, BTW )


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bostjan said:


> Putting "GRRM" and "concise" in the same sentence is laughable.
> 
> Have you read his books?
> 
> He's not the worst I've seen, but he's inarguably much more long-winded than the average writer.
> 
> JRR Tolkein - sure, he's also long-winded at times, but you can't argue that his stories didn't go somewhere in the process. At this point in time, it's still up in the air as to whether GRRM's narrative will ever go anywhere. In fact, several main characters die without their stories ever wrapping up. The fact that a long-winded story gets somewhere means that it's objectively less rambling than one that goes nowhere.
> 
> Also, look at the length of the manuscripts as a stark contrast in how "concise" the two are. One is long and finished, whereas the other is exponentially longer and yet unfinished. ...which is why we are having this conversation in the first place.


I meant GRRM was relatively more concise. He's not exactly Hemingway level concise but comparatively speaking he's better than Tolkien or Anne rice imo.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bostjan said:


> Pieces needed for an endgame being in place is very different, though, from an endgame being in place.
> 
> If you guys want to compare JRR Tolkein with GRR Martin and say Tolkein is just rambling and excessive irrelevant details, and Martin is concise and to the point, then I want to know which books you are reading and what substances were involved with reading one that weren't involved with reading the other.
> 
> And, for the record, I enjoyed reading ASoIaF, but I am a bigger fan of the LotR books. Maybe my opinion is too subjective, but I think I have clear objective reasons to disagree with KnightBrolaire's slam against JRRT.



Look, I love the LOTR series and the Hobbit, but his style of writing starts to wear on me after a while. I think it's because I read the Silmarillion and absolutely hated it as it is the epitome of bloated uneccessary descriptions imo. GRRM was more concise in the first 2 or 3 books but by Dance of dragons he borders on absurdity with his detail. Why do I need whole chapters devoted to irrelevant characters that just barely cross paths with the "main" characters?


----------



## PunkBillCarson

^Because that's what world building is? For someone that couldn't care about the history of how everything came to be, yeah I'd understand. But I'm the kind of person that when it comes down to something, I want to know why every single time. Of course, I'm a huge Dark Souls/Bloodborne fan, so I'm sure that come into play somehow. I love the history and the fact that he had enough imagination to come up with everything that he did is incredible to me.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

PunkBillCarson said:


> ^Because that's what world building is? For someone that couldn't care about the history of how everything came to be, yeah I'd understand. But I'm the kind of person that when it comes down to something, I want to know why every single time. Of course, I'm a huge Dark Souls/Bloodborne fan, so I'm sure that come into play somehow. I love the history and the fact that he had enough imagination to come up with everything that he did is incredible to me.


No, that's what ....ty worldbuilding is. A little tidbit of information can go a long way. Not every little detail needs to be fleshed out in a book. Look at the way Dark Souls did it, they give you some basic info but most of the actual lore is sprinkled in item descriptions/certain npc conversations. They don't throw the exposition at you they let you peel it out if you so choose. Look at a guy like VaatiVidya, his whole channel revolves around Dark Souls lore/speculation. If you guys want some gritty dark fantasy while you're waiting around for GoT to start up again check out the Prince of Thorns series by Mark Lawrence.


----------



## bostjan

I see the complaint a lot regarding AFfC and ADwD, and I felt the same way, at times. The Silmarillion was published after JRRT's death, by his son, though, and wasn't even a book at all when he died, just a stack of notes that were not intended to be published.... we have no idea what sorts of things GRRM has doodled that he intends no one to ever see. That's like judging Peter Seller's acting based off of _The Trail of the Pink Panther_ a movie he was edited into after he died.

I suppose we could have nerd wars over GRRM vs JRRT, but at the end of the day, I think both are not going to be forgotten, so I guess it doesn't really matter. I guess I just see Tolkein as notably classier and more deliberate, but that could very well be nostalgia talking.

Regarding superfluous side characters popping up out of seemingly nowhere, having a chapter dedicated to everything going on with them, and then just having them killed off at the end of the chapter: I really don't see a problem with that sort of story telling, but if it gets overused, it'd be an obvious gimmick. I don't really think it's necessary, either... I would put it this way - it's a cool idea to tell a story that way, if there aren't already too many characters and if your novel is not already pushing a thousand pages of text. A good story isn't just a good plot with good characters, it's a lot to do with how the story is told, and with how all of the little details fit together. This is merely my opinion straight-up, but GRRM just seems to be over-the-top in terms of trying to fit 10 pounds of .... into a five pound bag. He's the Michael Angelo Batio of writing. Personally, I like a story to have a good plot, and good characters, and also some subtlety in the details with certain things left ambiguous, and I don't like a lot of frills that I feel are unnecessary in obtaining those other goals. With ASoIaF, I feel like the story is phenomenal, the characters are great, and the writing style around all of that is good, other than that it sometimes tries too hard and lacks subtlety. I think Tolkein also had good characters and a good plot, but didn't come off trying as hard, and is generally easier to read. But that's all my opinion and doesn't preclude anyone else from having their own.

It's easy to call a writer "rambling" or "long-winded" when you are trying to slog through a multi-volume epic, butkeep in mind that the Lord of the Rings was published over the course of only two years and is less than a quart of the length of what we have of a Song of Ice and Fire so far, which has taken over twenty years, so far.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

KnightBrolaire said:


> No, that's what ....ty worldbuilding is. A little tidbit of information can go a long way. Not every little detail needs to be fleshed out in a book. Look at the way Dark Souls did it, they give you some basic info but most of the actual lore is sprinkled in item descriptions/certain npc conversations. They don't throw the exposition at you they let you peel it out if you so choose. Look at a guy like VaatiVidya, his whole channel revolves around Dark Souls lore/speculation. If you guys want some gritty dark fantasy while you're waiting around for GoT to start up again check out the Prince of Thorns series by Mark Lawrence.




Yeah but the only difference here is, is that Tolkien (well his son, more or less) made it an option while Miyazaki did not. I mean, you read the book. If you didn't want to know, they why did you? I personally found it very interesting to know the whole history of Middle Earth and how Sauron came to be, plus Morgoth and all of that. If that's ....ty world building to you, then I don't know what to tell you. I guess just stick to reading the main books, but as a fantasy nut, I'm the kind of guy who's always in search of more, no matter how I get it. I guess I should tell you to go ahead and skip anything Brandon Sanderson has written, because it also consists well, not just of one planet, but a whole solar system. Me? I'm going to be absorbing it all like a glutton.


----------



## vividox

<-- Also a Cosmere nerd.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> I suppose we could have nerd wars over GRRM vs JRRT, but at the end of the day, I think both are not going to be forgotten, so I guess it doesn't really matter. I guess I just see Tolkein as notably classier and more deliberate, but that could very well be nostalgia talking.
> 
> Regarding superfluous side characters popping up out of seemingly nowhere, having a chapter dedicated to everything going on with them, and then just having them killed off at the end of the chapter: I really don't see a problem with that sort of story telling, but if it gets overused, it'd be an obvious gimmick. I don't really think it's necessary, either... I would put it this way - it's a cool idea to tell a story that way, if there aren't already too many characters and if your novel is not already pushing a thousand pages of text. A good story isn't just a good plot with good characters, it's a lot to do with how the story is told, and with how all of the little details fit together. This is merely my opinion straight-up, but GRRM just seems to be over-the-top in terms of trying to fit 10 pounds of .... into a five pound bag. He's the Michael Angelo Batio of writing. Personally, I like a story to have a good plot, and good characters, and also some subtlety in the details with certain things left ambiguous, and I don't like a lot of frills that I feel are unnecessary in obtaining those other goals. With ASoIaF, I feel like the story is phenomenal, the characters are great, and the writing style around all of that is good, other than that it sometimes tries too hard and lacks subtlety. I think Tolkein also had good characters and a good plot, but didn't come off trying as hard, and is generally easier to read. But that's all my opinion and doesn't preclude anyone else from having their own.
> 
> It's easy to call a writer "rambling" or "long-winded" when you are trying to slog through a multi-volume epic, butkeep in mind that the Lord of the Rings was published over the course of only two years and is less than a quart of the length of what we have of a Song of Ice and Fire so far, which has taken over twenty years, so far.


I largely agree with everything you've written here. The biggest appeal to me about GRRM is how he presents the raw human experience. You do see the f-bombs and the rape scenes and conversations without clothes on and people dying pointlessly. The JRRTs of the world like to avoid those altogether or at least handle them with kids gloves, and I feel like that somehow diminishes the ugliness that can be a part of the human experience. JRRT is indeed classier, but I feel his narratives are also less realistic, in a sense.

One of my favorite sub-storylines in ASOIAF is Quentyn Martell. Everyone on the internet bashes the hell out of that one because "GRRM wasted all those words on a plot that didn't go anywhere". Not only is that the point, but it's a fantastic point. People die without their dreams being realized every single day. Not everyone who desires to be a hero becomes a hero, and just because you have the best of intentions doesn't mean you get a clean death. In damn near any other story, the average guy who dedicates himself to the extraordinary becomes extraordinary, and here he finally died unceremoniously in a move that only made matters worse (releasing the dragons). Quentyn's story is awesome. 

At the end of the day, they are both damn good authors and I think GRRM just fits my cynical worldview a little better. Yay subjectivity.


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> I largely agree with everything you've written here. The biggest appeal to me about GRRM is how he presents the raw human experience. You do see the f-bombs and the rape scenes and conversations without clothes on and people dying pointlessly. The JRRTs of the world like to avoid those altogether or at least handle them with kids gloves, and I feel like that somehow diminishes the ugliness that can be a part of the human experience. JRRT is indeed classier, but I feel his narratives are also less realistic, in a sense.



Ha ha, yeah, well, I mean, it is the fantasy genre...

Anyway, I really do appreciate some of the grittiness. It does sometimes cross a line with me, though. I suppose the way my mind works, if a story crosses the line exactly once, it's edgy, but two or more times and it starts to feel to me like it's kind of trashy. GRRM's stories really don't cross the line that much, considering the amount of text, but when they do, he goes all in.



vividox said:


> One of my favorite sub-storylines in ASOIAF is Quentyn Martell. Everyone on the internet bashes the hell out of that one because "GRRM wasted all those words on a plot that didn't go anywhere". Not only is that the point, but it's a fantastic point. People die without their dreams being realized every single day. Not everyone who desires to be a hero becomes a hero, and just because you have the best of intentions doesn't mean you get a clean death. In damn near any other story, the average guy who dedicates himself to the extraordinary becomes extraordinary, and here he finally died unceremoniously in a move that only made matters worse (releasing the dragons). Quentyn's story is awesome.
> 
> At the end of the day, they are both damn good authors and I think GRRM just fits my cynical worldview a little better. Yay subjectivity.



I agree. But the only problem, in my mind, is that no one cares about the losers that much. The reason we have a story about the hero and not the guy who was almost the hero but failed, is simply that the guy who almost made it is a less interesting story.

There are exceptions, of course. Rocky was the story of a fighter who worked his ass off just to get his ass beat in the ring.

In ASoIaF, though, there are so many stories that follow a would be hero who fails, to the point where when


Spoiler



Jon died in the book


, I really just shrugged it off. It should have been way more upsetting, but I had been too desensitized to the gratuitous character killing that I just said "hmm, well, that sucks," and put down the book. Valar morghulis, after all.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> Ha ha, yeah, well, I mean, it is the fantasy genre...
> 
> Anyway, I really do appreciate some of the grittiness. It does sometimes cross a line with me, though. I suppose the way my mind works, if a story crosses the line exactly once, it's edgy, but two or more times and it starts to feel to me like it's kind of trashy. GRRM's stories really don't cross the line that much, considering the amount of text, but when they do, he goes all in.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. But the only problem, in my mind, is that no one cares about the losers that much. The reason we have a story about the hero and not the guy who was almost the hero but failed, is simply that the guy who almost made it is a less interesting story.
> 
> There are exceptions, of course. Rocky was the story of a fighter who worked his ass off just to get his ass beat in the ring.
> 
> In ASoIaF, though, there are so many stories that follow a would be hero who fails, to the point where when
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Jon died in the book
> 
> 
> , I really just shrugged it off. It should have been way more upsetting, but I had been too desensitized to the gratuitous character killing that I just said "hmm, well, that sucks," and put down the book. Valar morghulis, after all.



Yeah, there's always the potential for desensitizing.

If you've never seen this before, it's funny and relevant: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0


----------



## PunkBillCarson

vividox said:


> <-- Also a Cosmere nerd.





Dude, big time for me. Ever since I read Mistborn just to give a new author a chance, I've absorbed it all. Took a break from the first trilogy to give Stormlight Archives a chance and it was every bit as good. Come to find out a little while later that Sanderson is planning some kind of crossover. I still need to read Elantris and a few others (seriously, this ....er writes at least 3 good books a year) which I will get to eventually.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Apparently the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan is going to be a tv series now.


----------



## Xaios

KnightBrolaire said:


> Apparently the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan is going to be a tv series now.



Haha, I doubt it. Whoever holds the TV rights to it came up with a pilot episode for it a few years ago, and man, it was baaaaaaad.

Bad, as in, "Billy Zane was easily the best part of this production" bad.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Xaios said:


> Haha, I doubt it. Whoever holds the TV rights to it came up with a pilot episode for it a few years ago, and man, it was baaaaaaad.
> 
> Bad, as in, "Billy Zane was easily the best part of this production" bad.



no it's been confirmed. Sony and Red Eagle are producing the series.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/04/20/wheel-of-time-tv-series-sets-showrunner-production-studio


----------



## Xaios

KnightBrolaire said:


> no it's been confirmed. Sony and Red Eagle are producing the series.
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/04/20/wheel-of-time-tv-series-sets-showrunner-production-studio



I know, I saw that article before I even posted my response. More adaptations of popular IPs like this "go into production" than you shake a stick out. The vast majority of them, however, never amount to anything, just as any Wheel of Time adaptation has in the past. Hell, that one had a pilot, which is more than can be said for most.


----------



## chopeth

PunkBillCarson said:


> Dude, big time for me. Ever since I read Mistborn just to give a new author a chance, I've absorbed it all. Took a break from the first trilogy to give Stormlight Archives a chance and it was every bit as good. Come to find out a little while later that Sanderson is planning some kind of crossover. I still need to read Elantris and a few others (seriously, this ....er writes at least 3 good books a year) which I will get to eventually.



Same here, I'm a total Sanderson addict. After getting so disappointed about GRRM and GoT books needed my fantasy fix and found out about Sanderson. Hell, thanks fvck, Mistborn series blew my mind, love it, after that I read Elantris, which is awesome too, I recommend it to anyone. I am reading Warbreaker and not as perfect, but still good.

After it I plan to read the Stormlight Archives Series, which I've also heard is great. Sanderson avoids everything I hate about GRRM. Unnecessary characters and plots, and he isn't psychotic about dealing with magic and fantasy a bit more than the old lazy crook.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Xaios said:


> Haha, I doubt it. Whoever holds the TV rights to it came up with a pilot episode for it a few years ago, and man, it was baaaaaaad.
> 
> Bad, as in, "Billy Zane was easily the best part of this production" bad.



Whats hilarious is that the pilot was only made so they could keep the rights. They tried to put it on at a night time slot so nobody would see it but it blew up on the Wheel of Time forums. They even tried to sue Jordan's widow for slander but dropped their case and settled out of court.

If they are making a show then then they have come to an agreement. I'd imagine there is a lot of bad blood and its still a long way away.


----------



## vividox

PunkBillCarson said:


> Dude, big time for me. Ever since I read Mistborn just to give a new author a chance, I've absorbed it all. Took a break from the first trilogy to give Stormlight Archives a chance and it was every bit as good. Come to find out a little while later that Sanderson is planning some kind of crossover. I still need to read Elantris and a few others (seriously, this ....er writes at least 3 good books a year) which I will get to eventually.



I just got done re-reading the entire Cosmere, haha. If you enjoy his books, they are even better (IMO) on the second go around. You pick up SO MANY easter eggs you missed the first time around.


----------



## wankerness

Xaios said:


> Bad, as in, "Billy Zane was easily the best part of this production" bad.



That isn't saying much, since Billy Zane is AWESOME. I guess he usually is the best part of otherwise-average productions, but he can easily be the best part of something without it being terrible! Things like Titanic are the only movies where he isn't allowed to shine. Something like Demon Knight where he's allowed to cut loose, on the other hand...


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Speaking of adaptions what is happening with The Dark Tower? Its set to be released in 3 months and there isn't even a trailer 

If Sony have already lost faith in it by not providing an advertising budget then thats not a good sign for The Wheel of Time.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wankerness said:


> That isn't saying much, since Billy Zane is AWESOME. I guess he usually is the best part of otherwise-average productions, but he can easily be the best part of something without it being terrible! Things like Titanic are the only movies where he isn't allowed to shine. Something like Demon Knight where he's allowed to cut loose, on the other hand...



Ikr he was awesome in Sniper and Phantom.


----------



## bostjan

Lorcan Ward said:


> Speaking of adaptions what is happening with The Dark Tower? Its set to be released in 3 months and there isn't even a trailer
> 
> If Sony have already lost faith in it by not providing an advertising budget then thats not a good sign for The Wheel of Time.



 I think _The Dark Tower_ (2017) is going to have trouble getting traction. I recently found out that the studio has admitted that it's not really based off of the book, and we know the studio bumped the release twice (once for the Jumanji remake and once for the upcoming Emoji movie), so I don't think it'd be realistic to have any high expectations for this one. If they'd just make a straight-up film adaptation of the book series, they could have had a nice blockbuster epic fantasy film series worth billions, since the books already have tons of fans, and people generally love Stephen King. But, by deliberately deviating from the source material, and not seeming to give two ....s about the release, there is little chance this will be productive in the long term, IMO.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> I think _The Dark Tower_ (2017) is going to have trouble getting traction. *I recently found out that the studio has admitted that it's not really based off of the book,* and we know the studio bumped the release twice (once for the Jumanji remake and once for the upcoming Emoji movie), so I don't think it'd be realistic to have any high expectations for this one. If they'd just make a straight-up film adaptation of the book series, they could have had a nice blockbuster epic fantasy film series worth billions, since the books already have tons of fans, and people generally love Stephen King. But, by deliberately deviating from the source material, and not seeming to give two ....s about the release, there is little chance this will be productive in the long term, IMO.



The first stuff they released showed it wasn't at all, and the first things they leaked said as much. I kind of liked how they did it, with King doing that tweet saying that he STARTS the movie with the Horn of Eld, thus meaning it's a sequel with the time reset.

I still think the movie will be stupid and a flop, but hey! At least they seem to have given some thinking to how to avoid adhering to the source material while not necessarily pissing all over it.


----------



## Xaios

wankerness said:


> That isn't saying much, since Billy Zane is AWESOME. I guess he usually is the best part of otherwise-average productions, but he can easily be the best part of something without it being terrible! Things like Titanic are the only movies where he isn't allowed to shine. Something like Demon Knight where he's allowed to cut loose, on the other hand...



Fair enough, I didn't really flesh my point out well enough. Billy Zane practically somnambulated through the Wheel of Time pilot, and he was *still* easily the best part.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> I think _The Dark Tower_ (2017) is going to have trouble getting traction. I recently found out that the studio has admitted that it's not really based off of the book, and we know the studio bumped the release twice (once for the Jumanji remake and once for the upcoming Emoji movie), so I don't think it'd be realistic to have any high expectations for this one. If they'd just make a straight-up film adaptation of the book series, they could have had a nice blockbuster epic fantasy film series worth billions, since the books already have tons of fans, and people generally love Stephen King. But, by deliberately deviating from the source material, and not seeming to give two ....s about the release, there is little chance this will be productive in the long term, IMO.



Why is it that so many of Stephen King's book-to-screen adaptations end up going completely off course?


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> Why is it that so many of Stephen King's book-to-screen adaptations end up going completely off course?



You mean:



FTFY said:


> Why is it that so many book-to-screen adaptations end up going completely off course?



The answer is that Hollywood is an odd production machine.

Find a cool book. Wow, someone should make this into a movie! Hire a director, he/she has his/her own idea what the film adaptation should be like, and rightly so, since you can't directly translate a book into a film, anyway, so your director makes plenty of changes. But say you are lucky, and your director stays reasonably faithful to the tone and main story of the source material. 

Great! Next, show the film to producers, but, aww, man, they don't like it. They say it needs more blood and guts and more sex. Reshoot it with Meagan Fox half naked in it and fire your good director and hire someone who thinks he's the next Oliver Stone. Now you have your blood and your guts and sex, the producers are happy, but it's a lot less faithful to the book. 

Oh well, what's next? Show the film to the censors, and...well, they refuse to rate it. Too much blood? No. Too much T&A? No. It's because the book featured a gay character. Rewrite. The character is no longer gay. Now he's a female. Reshoot...

Now you have an R rating, your producers are happy, and you are pretty much nowhere near the book, except the ending. Show it to a test audience. They don't like the ending. Reshoot.

Gee, we might as well rename the film, but the producers already paid for the rights, and don't want anyone else making a book-to-screen adaptation, so, it sticks. Off to cinemas around the globe. Critics hate it, because they don't understand how the film ties in any way to the book....but somehow, it makes tens of millions in profit. Time for a sequel...


----------



## vividox

Sure. Just seems like Stephen King in particular has had a lot of them. The ending of Dreamcatcher in particular was really head-scratching; very faithful to the book up until the last five minutes when they decided to... I don't even know what the hell that was.


----------



## extendedsolo

vividox said:


> Sure. Just seems like Stephen King in particular has had a lot of them. The ending of Dreamcatcher in particular was really head-scratching; very faithful to the book up until the last five minutes when they decided to... I don't even know what the hell that was.



I have a really bad feeling that the next adaptation of It will be "super creepy homicidal clown movie" that will make the mini-series look downright oscar worthy (not that I ever thought the mini-series was all that bad).


----------



## bostjan

vividox said:


> Sure. Just seems like Stephen King in particular has had a lot of them. The ending of Dreamcatcher in particular was really head-scratching; very faithful to the book up until the last five minutes when they decided to... I don't even know what the hell that was.



Well, King is a popular and prolific writer. There have been some really good film adaptations of his work, as well...I suppose if you average them all out, the average is, well, umm, average.

Have you seen the miniseries 11.22.63? Even with the extra time allowed from being a long form miniseries, there was still a lot cut out, yet I think the series "got" the tone and spirit of the book.

King's novels do a lot of subtle universe-building, because there are little things in nearly every book tying it to another...just one of many little details that make things difficult for film-makers.



extendedsolo said:


> I have a really bad feeling that the next adaptation of It will be "super creepy homicidal clown movie" that will make the mini-series look downright oscar worthy (not that I ever thought the mini-series was all that bad).



Well, a lot of my friends and family are excited about that one. I'm highly skeptical, mainly because I didn't see why an _It_ film was necessary now. The original miniseries did a decent job with what it needed to do. I suspect a cash grab. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## vividox

I haven't caught 11.22.63 yet, it's on an increasingly extensive to-watch list.


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> Well, King is a popular and prolific writer. There have been some really good film adaptations of his work, as well...I suppose if you average them all out, the average is, well, umm, average.
> 
> Have you seen the miniseries 11.22.63? Even with the extra time allowed from being a long form miniseries, there was still a lot cut out, yet I think the series "got" the tone and spirit of the book.
> 
> King's novels do a lot of subtle universe-building, because there are little things in nearly every book tying it to another...just one of many little details that make things difficult for film-makers.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, a lot of my friends and family are excited about that one. I'm highly skeptical, mainly because I didn't see why an _It_ film was necessary now. The original miniseries did a decent job with what it needed to do. I suspect a cash grab. I hope I'm wrong.



I just think it's hard to take an 1100 page book and put it into 2 hours. As much of that story is about Pennywise as it is about the relationship of the kids in it. The story of their lives in the book is why I was so invested. I fear it's just going to be "Pennywise pops out and kills people!"


----------



## wankerness

extendedsolo said:


> I just think it's hard to take an 1100 page book and put it into 2 hours. As much of that story is about Pennywise as it is about the relationship of the kids in it. The story of their lives in the book is why I was so invested. I fear it's just going to be "Pennywise pops out and kills people!"



Well, I think the movie is only the kid half of the story. Not that 550 pages into 2 hours is great either, but it's better! Having read articles about what the original plan was for the script and how it was changed, it seems like we missed out on a version that was made by a really serious fan of the book, but one that had some questionable decisions of its own and may be improved by what we get.



bostjan said:


> Well, a lot of my friends and family are excited about that one. I'm highly skeptical, mainly because I didn't see why an _It_ film was necessary now. The original miniseries did a decent job with what it needed to do. I suspect a cash grab. I hope I'm wrong.



That original miniseries was really bad, I feel like a lot of people are blinded by nostalgia/having seen it when their standards were much lower. A couple of the cast decisions were good, Tim Curry is very memorable, but everything is so neutered and rushed. The movie looks like they put really serious effort into a lot of aspects of it. It might end up dumb, and I HATE the clown design, but who knows. I think it will at least be better than the miniseries. If it's successful, we might even get the other half of it.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

bostjan said:


> I think _The Dark Tower_ (2017) is going to have trouble getting traction. I recently found out that the studio has admitted that it's not really based off of the book, and we know the studio bumped the release twice (once for the Jumanji remake and once for the upcoming Emoji movie), so I don't think it'd be realistic to have any high expectations for this one. If they'd just make a straight-up film adaptation of the book series, they could have had a nice blockbuster epic fantasy film series worth billions, since the books already have tons of fans, and people generally love Stephen King. But, by deliberately deviating from the source material, and not seeming to give two ....s about the release, there is little chance this will be productive in the long term, IMO.



Well that is depressing. Still no trailer so its safe to assume this will tank and there won't be any more films because of a poor box office. This had so much potential. 



vividox said:


> Why is it that so many of Stephen King's book-to-screen adaptations end up going completely off course?



This looks awful!


"No it doesn't do anything to your ....ing mind, it throws ....ing Half-Life monsters at you from the ....ing nope dimension." haha


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, that mist trailer looks AWFUL and makes me want to avoid seeing even a single episode.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Lorcan Ward said:


> This looks awful!
> 
> 
> "No it doesn't do anything to your ....ing mind, it throws ....ing Half-Life monsters at you from the ....ing nope dimension." haha




I'll watch it. It has to be better than under the dome..


----------



## vividox

So... it's like a slightly edgier version of The Happening?


----------



## wankerness

vividox said:


> So... it's like a slightly edgier version of The Happening?



No...have you seen the movie or read the book?


----------



## extendedsolo

I liked the movie just fine!



vividox said:


> So... it's like a slightly edgier version of The Happening?



Oh my dear god no. The Mist is so much more exploratory over The Happening which is just an entire movie of "OMG WHAT COULD IT BE THAT"S CAUSING PEOPLE TO DO THIS?!?!?!"


----------



## vividox

wankerness said:


> No...have you seen the movie or read the book?



Neither. That was just from seeing the trailer.


----------



## mongey

I haven't seen it for many years but I remember the mini series of Stephen kings The Stand being decent.


----------



## wankerness

mongey said:


> *I haven't seen it for many years *but I remember the mini series of Stephen kings The Stand being decent.



That part is key for why you think the second  Again, it has a few good casting decisions, but it's so completely neutered by the network TV circa 90s censorship, terrible dialogue, and low production values. Watch the Randall Flagg transformations and just try not to laugh. It also doesn't have the benefit of something like Tim Curry that everyone agrees is great. It's another thing like IT that could have made a very good high-budget miniseries, but probably can't be translated to any other form without major compromises.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I enjoyed the Mist film because of the ties with the Dark Tower. 

Aren't they remaking The Stand as a TV series?


----------



## wankerness

Lorcan Ward said:


> I enjoyed the Mist film because of the ties with the Dark Tower.
> 
> Aren't they remaking The Stand as a TV series?



Not that I'm aware of. If they make it a series, it is virtually guaranteed to be awful, it needs to have an end and have a clear arc in mind. A series that's designed to just go on indefinitely is a very bad thing with an adaptation IMO. Which is what they seem to be doing with the mist here!

I also don't get why the hell they'd go for The Mist again when it's one of the very few King books that had a good adaptation already! And so recently. Plus, the original story was so short that it really doesn't lend itself to being a series.

That brief series a few years ago where every episode was a different short story was a pretty good idea, I think. I only saw one or two episodes and can't remember how good it was, but I did like the idea. A lot of those stories in his compilations like Night Shift were REALLY short but were really vivid and I think would have worked well as 25 minute episodes. Just, not on prime-time network TV, since so many were very gruesome. I wish they would stop doing that. If they'd put it in the time slot for Hannibal or something where they could go all-out on absolutely hideous visuals, fine!

How did we even get on this, haha. I forgot this was the GoT thread.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> Not that I'm aware of. If they make it a series, it is virtually guaranteed to be awful, it needs to have an end and have a clear arc in mind. A series that's designed to just go on indefinitely is a very bad thing with an adaptation IMO. Which is what they seem to be doing with the mist here!
> 
> I also don't get why the hell they'd go for The Mist again when it's one of the very few King books that had a good adaptation already! And so recently. Plus, the original story was so short that it really doesn't lend itself to being a series.
> 
> That brief series a few years ago where every episode was a different short story was a pretty good idea, I think. I only saw one or two episodes and can't remember how good it was, but I did like the idea. A lot of those stories in his compilations like Night Shift were REALLY short but were really vivid and I think would have worked well as 25 minute episodes. Just, not on prime-time network TV, since so many were very gruesome. I wish they would stop doing that. If they'd put it in the time slot for Hannibal or something where they could go all-out on absolutely hideous visuals, fine!
> 
> How did we even get on this, haha. I forgot this was the GoT thread.



Well, most of Stephen King's miniseries adaptations were one season and then wrapped. IT, the Stand, 11.22.63, etc. The Dead Zone had a couple seasons, IIRC, but it's been a long time, so I might be wrong.

 I guess I figured the Stephen King discussion here was okay and would correct itself once a new GoT trailer was out or something.

Did anyone hear rumours that Ed Sheeran was going to be joining the cast?


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> Well, most of Stephen King's miniseries adaptations were one season and then wrapped. IT, the Stand, 11.22.63, etc. The Dead Zone had a couple seasons, IIRC, but it's been a long time, so I might be wrong.
> 
> I guess I figured the Stephen King discussion here was okay and would correct itself once a new GoT trailer was out or something.
> 
> Did anyone hear rumours that Ed Sheeran was going to be joining the cast?



Miniseries are designed to be a one-off (and I think less than a full season's length by design), while series are usually designed to go on indefinitely, and tend to only get an end if their ratings decline or the creator jumps ship.

IIRC, the Dead Zone was a series and went on for a while without a planned ending. Dunno, though, I never watched it. The movie is one of my favorites.


----------



## extendedsolo

bostjan said:


> Well, most of Stephen King's miniseries adaptations were one season and then wrapped. IT, the Stand, 11.22.63, etc. The Dead Zone had a couple seasons, IIRC, but it's been a long time, so I might be wrong.
> 
> I guess I figured the Stephen King discussion here was okay and would correct itself once a new GoT trailer was out or something.
> 
> Did anyone hear rumours that Ed Sheeran was going to be joining the cast?



I didn't, but I wonder if it will be like when Mastodon was on the show. Just a one off thing in the background, which apparently they are doing again this season.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> Miniseries are designed to be a one-off (and I think less than a full season's length by design), while series are usually designed to go on indefinitely, and tend to only get an end if their ratings decline or the creator jumps ship.
> 
> IIRC, the Dead Zone was a series and went on for a while without a planned ending. Dunno, though, I never watched it. The movie is one of my favorites.



Yeah, I had to look it up. I guess I watched a couple seasons of the Dead Zone then gave up on it. I hadn't realized it went on for years and then just kind of faded off the air without anyone noticing.


----------



## mongey

wankerness said:


> That part is key for why you think the second  Again, it has a few good casting decisions, but it's so completely neutered by the network TV circa 90s censorship, terrible dialogue, and low production values. Watch the Randall Flagg transformations and just try not to laugh. It also doesn't have the benefit of something like Tim Curry that everyone agrees is great. It's another thing like IT that could have made a very good high-budget miniseries, but probably can't be translated to any other form without major compromises.



lol

I was thinking of hunting it down. maybe not


----------



## wankerness

I'm trying to get through season 5 again cause I haven't seen it since broadcast, and it's REALLY bad compared to the previous 4. Chunks of every episode make me want to skip through them. Arya's stuff is the primary offender as there's so much of it and it's so boring, but obviously the Sand Snakes are by far the most skip-worthy (they only have one appearance before the 6th episode though). The stuff with Ramsay is practically unwatchable, too, as he's like a Joffrey without any entertainment value. Argh. I'm on episode 6 now, and still nothing very good has happened all season apart from a couple talking scenes with Stannis. I know the Hardhome episode was cool, but boy has it been rough going so far.

I THINK season 6 was better, guess I'll find out! I remember they just abandoned Dorne, which was the best decision possible.

After reading spoilers for season 7 regarding


Spoiler



the Sand Snakes, I'm pretty happy without how it sounds like that's going to turn out!!!I didn't read any other spoilers at all cause I'm actually interested in most of those plotlines/characters, I just wanted to be sure those sand snakes weren't going to come back and ruin everything.



EDIT: Ah man, episode 6 is both the worst episode yet and the one that set half the internet against the show (for the wedding bed scene). That fight scene with the sand snakes is hilarious, I forgot the part where they had to edit two takes together when they knock one of the girls back and then she immediately does one of those spring getups. If they were going to cast people that couldn't act, they should have gone with stuntwomen!!


----------



## vividox

Yeah, Season 5 is by far the worst season... oof.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Season 5 was awful, they really dropped the ball by pouring so much resources and time into episode 9, which was amazing but shows have to stop having a ton of filler slow episodes that lead up to one incredible episode. As a result a B team was sent out to film the sand snake stuff which explains why the choreography was so bad. 
lC1YED3.mp4


----------



## vividox

Season 5 was in the limbo of "Are we drawing this out as much as possible so George can finish the books, or are we just going to keep pushing through, books be damned?" Before Season 5, HBO was wanting to draw the series out as long as possible, and the showrunners eventually convinced them to try to wrap it up in 8 seasons. Season 5 is almost a personification of that, and it really shows what happens to the quality of writing when the writers don't know their end game. Everything about that Spain unit / Sand Snakes plot was god awful.


----------



## bostjan

The plot seemed to have a few slow episodes, but mostly kept a decent pace, on average, in seasons 1-4. Season 5 get's a bad rap, but it had some great moments, for me. I think, maybe, season 5 could have been condensed into 3-4 episodes, though.

The new season should be plenty exciting. I'm really hoping to see tons of White Walkers and Dragons. I've felt like, since the beginning, I wanted more White Walkers, and I think the Dragons are the clear answer to them. And that's what kept the storytelling so good, was that there was so much garbage happening, and we were told just enough about the White Walkers (or the Others, if you will), to be intrigued. Now that all has to start coming out into the open soon. A certain part of me thinks that I'll be disappointed, since I'm picturing, in my mind's eye's mind's eye, an epic battle between WW's and Dragons with tons of carnage and utter chaos affecting the human characters who manage to make it that far... and the budget for shooting that scene the way I'm imagining it would have to be ghastly. Maybe we'll find out in 2018 or 2019 how that pans out.


----------



## wankerness

I finished seasons 5 and 6. 5 is just terribly paced. The last 3 episodes are all great, but it's really rough going all the way until then.

6 is pretty good almost all the way through. I think the last episode's first 20 minutes are incredible and one of the high points of the series, but the rest of it is really rushed with people getting shoved all over the game board in cuts (amazing teleporting Varys, for example). I'm more hyped for season 7 again.

Melisandre is still my favorite character! Boy, do I hope she doesn't run into Davos again. The Hound is right up there as well. Dinklage's accent has bothered me more and more each year.


----------



## wankerness

First episode is TV MA for MILD VIOLENCE and BRIEF NUDITY?! OMG!!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wankerness said:


> First episode is TV MA for MILD VIOLENCE and BRIEF NUDITY?! OMG!!


wth those are two things basically guaranteed to be found in a GoT episode, though obviously in gratuitous amounts and not brief/mild


----------



## wankerness

It turned out to be accurate, basically no violence and no nudity that I saw!

This episode felt really LOW RENT somehow, like the sets looked shoddy and the big "epic" ending had all of 6 people in it (maybe it was 7 or 8?). I really liked The Hound's scenes. Arya's were good too.


----------



## MFB

Talk about blowing your load early, dear Lord, that was boring


----------



## wankerness

Twin Peaks was great so it made up for it. It's unfortunate that the only two shows I watch happen at the same time, but such is life.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I'm really bothered by the iron islanders somehow being able to build 1000 ships that quickly.


----------



## vividox

Loved that cold open, though.


----------



## MFB

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm really bothered by the iron islanders somehow being able to build 1000 ships that quickly.



Did Euron bring any of those with him when he returned to the Iron Islands or were they all new? If it's all new, then yeah, I'm in the same boat; although Danaerys did sail from Meereen to Dragonstone in that time, so maybe it's longer than we thought.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MFB said:


> Did Euron bring any of those with him when he returned to the Iron Islands or were they all new? If it's all new, then yeah, I'm in the same boat; although Danaerys did sail from Meereen to Dragonstone in that time, so maybe it's longer than we thought.


he had like 5 ships or something when he came back to the iron islands. In the books they mention it only takes a few weeks at most to cross from westeros to braavos, and at most a few months to get from mereen to westeros. Also, did anyone else crack up when Ed Sheeran was hanging out with arya?


----------



## MFB

KnightBrolaire said:


> he had like 5 ships or something when he came back to the iron islands. In the books they mention it only takes a few weeks at most to cross from westeros to braavos, and at most a few months to get from mereen to westeros. Also, did anyone else crack up when Ed Sheeran was hanging out with arya?



I HATED that he cameo'd last night, doing the one fucking thing he does anyways, which is sing. I probably would've turned it off if he had a lute with him. That whole thing didn't add to the episode at all, it was just like, "Look at who we got to wear Lannister armor!"


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MFB said:


> I HATED that he cameo'd last night, doing the one fucking thing he does anyways, which is sing. I probably would've turned it off if he had a lute with him. That whole thing didn't add to the episode at all, it was just like, "Look at who we got to wear Lannister armor!"


yeah it was a filler scene for me. Sam's scenes were basically filler too, except for the end with the restricted books/the burnt dude (who the hell was that..)


----------



## MFB

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah it was a filler scene for me. Sam's scenes were basically filler too, except for the end with the restricted books/the burnt dude (who the hell was that..)



He wasn't burnt, he was infected with ..._gray scale_


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MFB said:


> He wasn't burnt, he was infected with ..._gray scale_


ohhhh it was mormont. I knew i recognized the voice


----------



## bostjan

I quite enjoyed the episode.

The cold open was exactly what I expected. I would have thought it better for Arya not to reveal her identity, but I can kind of see it either way.
There were a lot of "building up to..." scenes. There were a few things that made it more entertaining, though. The reveal that one of our well known characters who had become estranged from the story suddenly popped up where we didn't expect him. The scenes with the Hound seemed to be cleverly written. The short exchange at the wall was quite good. Euron's jabs at Jamie were really entertaining. I actually thought the sequence with Sam cleaning bedpans and eating gruel was pretty effective. It made me feel like gagging and praying that it would stop, just like Sam felt.

Now, the bad - there is little time left to tell the rest of the story. With that in mind, I don't really need to be reminded that Cersei is evil, or that she is plotting something. I don't need to be reminded of politics in the North, and reminded which houses were loyal and which turned to Bolton's side. I don't need to be reminded that Littlefinger is always up to something. We need to have stuff moving into place. Either battles or deliberately moving toward battle. The movements of Arya and Danerys are to that end, but honestly, the scenes with the Hound and with Sam and the drama with the Lannisters is throwing off the pacing.


----------



## wankerness

The scene with Sam and the turds seemed to be trying to do a Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul montage and not managing to pull it off. It was funny, though. I saw several people say it reminded them of the intro to Pink Floyd's "Money."

I think they're overdoing it with Lyanna Mormont. She's starting to feel like a gimmick when they do this every couple episodes. Based on how tiny her house is, I'm wondering if she was intended as a one-off and they changed their mind due to public reaction. IIRC, they did that with that great actress from About a Boy/Harry Potter.

RE: the fleet, I thought it was really stupid. His fleet was completely destroyed besides what Yara/Theon took, and on that grey island with no visible trees whatsoever, he yelled at everyone "GO CHOP DOWN THE TREES AND MAKE THE BIGGEST FLEET EVER!!!" And now, just a couple episodes later, they have the biggest fleet ever. I guess there was a tremendous redwood forest just offscreen and thousands upon thousands of people to chop it down and fashion it into ships in just a couple months or whatever the timeline was between the beginning of the season 6 finale and now (I know there was a timejump between the beginning of the finale and when they showed Tyrion and Varys on a boat together).


----------



## tedtan

I'm just glad it's FINALLY back on the air.


----------



## mongey

I enjoyed it. Def a set up episode for the season but you need that sometimes.

I agree on the building ships thing being a bit iffy but let's face it , the whole plot is full of time/ distance story holes. It's one of those things I'm happy to just not think about too much and enjoy it.


----------



## HeavyMetal4Ever

So, how did Euron know about the fleet in the first place? (putting aside questions about where or how he got his fleet of super ships). Is there a mole on Daenerys council? Or just bad writing and plot holes due to running out of source material?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeavyMetal4Ever said:


> So, how did Euron know about the fleet in the first place? (putting aside questions about where or how he got his fleet of super ships). Is there a mole on Daenerys council? Or just bad writing and plot holes due to running out of source material?


I doubt we'll get a good explanation anytime soon. I would guess that Euron's fleet was on its way back from king's landing and intercepted Yara's fleet as they were leaving dragonstone (which according to the books is only a day or 2 away by boat at the most). It'd be interesting if someone was sabotaging Danaerys though. All quibbles aside I really enjoyed seeing Sam trying to cure Jorah (the segue to the pudding was excellent and reminds me of a similar segue Sam Raimi did with Drag Me to Hell). Glad to see the Sand Snakes dead, they were pretty terribly portrayed imo. The actor playing euron was awesome, he's really been stealing any scene he's in imo.


----------



## bostjan

HeavyMetal4Ever said:


> So, how did Euron know about the fleet in the first place? (putting aside questions about where or how he got his fleet of super ships). Is there a mole on Daenerys council? Or just bad writing and plot holes due to running out of source material?


There could be a number of potential explanations, but none have been offered thus far.
TBH, the entire scene was confusing to me. I couldn't really tell what was going on in most of the action, since it was dark and things were blurry and the camera wasn't keeping still like ever. I really struggled to try to make out who the two bodies were at the end, and I don't feel like I'm at all certain who the lower one was, but I'm pretty sure I know who the upper one was...I guess we'll find out something next week.
All in all, the episode was very open ended. I think they meant to make it that way to keep people curious about the next episode. There were only 3-4 important bits of story that happened along, if you count the last scene as one bigger bit.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bostjan said:


> There could be a number of potential explanations, but none have been offered thus far.
> TBH, the entire scene was confusing to me. I couldn't really tell what was going on in most of the action, since it was dark and things were blurry and the camera wasn't keeping still like ever. I really struggled to try to make out who the two bodies were at the end, and I don't feel like I'm at all certain who the lower one was, but I'm pretty sure I know who the upper one was...I guess we'll find out something next week.
> All in all, the episode was very open ended. I think they meant to make it that way to keep people curious about the next episode. There were only 3-4 important bits of story that happened along, if you count the last scene as one bigger bit.


I'm pretty sure the bodies are the sand snakes, since one was hung with a whip.


----------



## HeavyMetal4Ever

I keep thinking about the scene where Euron promises to return to Cercei with a prize to win her over. Was that a hint that he had inside info that others didn't? Or was he just incredibly lucky to find Yara's fleet, with Sand (maybe the only person Cercei hates more that Tyrion) in tow? Euron seemed pretty confident that he could produce a prize that would win Cercei over, and Sand surely fits that bill. Or is he just straight up bat shit crazy, making promises he has no idea he can keep?


----------



## vividox

Also glad to see dead sand snakes. Plotwise, the Iron Island stuff has been just as bad, the only difference is the actor playing Euron is excellent.


----------



## wankerness

HeavyMetal4Ever said:


> I keep thinking about the scene where Euron promises to return to Cercei with a prize to win her over. Was that a hint that he had inside info that others didn't? Or was he just incredibly lucky to find Yara's fleet, with Sand (maybe the only person Cercei hates more that Tyrion) in tow? Euron seemed pretty confident that he could produce a prize that would win Cercei over, and Sand surely fits that bill. Or is he just straight up bat shit crazy, making promises he has no idea he can keep?



Who knows? I'm starting to think the writers don't. It's just ridiculous coincidence after ridiculous coincidence at this point, with characters teleporting all over the world as is convenient. I remember the first few seasons it actually DID take extremely long times for characters to get anywhere in the world. Now, it's just like they have to tie up all these character ends and get people to interact with each other and all that flew out the window.

That last episode was pretty good, apart from the crummy sex interlude that way too much time was devoted to. I'm thinking maybe they're pulling a Walking Dead, though, where as soon as any unnaturally long attention is given to a character they're dead the next episode!!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeavyMetal4Ever said:


> I keep thinking about the scene where Euron promises to return to Cercei with a prize to win her over. Was that a hint that he had inside info that others didn't? Or was he just incredibly lucky to find Yara's fleet, with Sand (maybe the only person Cercei hates more that Tyrion) in tow? Euron seemed pretty confident that he could produce a prize that would win Cercei over, and Sand surely fits that bill. Or is he just straight up bat shit crazy, making promises he has no idea he can keep?


Dragonstone is in the path of Euron's fleet when he's sailing back from King's Landing, so it makes sense that if they started out sailing earlier they could intercept Yara's fleet. They seem to be following the books with their portrayal of Euron where he's kind of crazy, but also pretty cunning. I wouldn't be surprised if he had scouts that told him about yara's fleet landing at dragonstone.


----------



## lewis

The one thing that annoys me slightly once you are beyond the relms of the fantasy of the show, is how can someone like Euron take the damage he did on the Boat during the sea battle, and just shake it off like its fine?. Im sure he took quite a few hits right?
Being crazy does not just make you immune to those sorts of injuries. As cool as he is, he should have died on that boat if I am remembering the scene correctly.


----------



## vividox

Yeah, I mean, he literally got an arrow to the neck.


----------



## USMarine75

wankerness said:


> That last episode was pretty good, apart from the crummy sex interlude that way too much time was devoted to.



I quite like it lol. 



wankerness said:


> I'm thinking maybe they're pulling a Walking Dead, though, where as soon as any unnaturally long attention is given to a character they're dead the next episode!!



Yup... they dead.


----------



## lewis

vividox said:


> Yeah, I mean, he literally got an arrow to the neck.


I was pretty sure that happened when trying to remember the scene.
I mean what explanation is given for him taking an arrow to the neck, yanking it out crudely, ripping the wound open and causing further damage, and being fine afterwards?.
I mean MAYBE initially he could still fight for short moments afterwards (whilst bleeding out) due to adrenaline........
but to be absolutely fine come the next day, or however many days later it is when he is marching the prisoners through the city towards Cercei, is pretty stupid. Im fine with the fantasy of the show, so give me a fantastical explanation............

But to just completely sidestep an explanation is pretty terrible.
Its my only gripe really because other than that I love the show totally.


----------



## MFB

vividox said:


> Yeah, I mean, he literally got an arrow to the neck.





Around 4:45, looks more like it hits him in the shoulder, which would suck but you'd still survive it


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Yeah that's not an arrow, that was the sand snake's whip.


----------



## MFB

KnightBrolaire said:


> Yeah that's not an arrow, that was the sand snake's whip.



He gets whipped around the neck earlier, but if you slow it down to half-speed, at 4:43 they definitely stab him in the side, so he should have at least a solid wound from that; whether it's life threatening, who's to say, but it could've healed somewhat during the ride back to KL


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MFB said:


> He gets whipped around the neck earlier, but if you slow it down to half-speed, at 4:43 they definitely stab him in the side, so he should have at least a solid wound from that; whether it's life threatening, who's to say, but it could've healed somewhat during the ride back to KL


considering the spear point is at least 4-6" it could have hit the kidneys, lungs or spleen depending on exactly where he gets stabbed. He obviously didn't get stabbed in the kidneys (which are the closest to the skin) or he would have died very quickly. Even if he took the full spear point in the side (say above the hip bone) he might still die of sepsis from perforated intestines. Unless we further assume that he received medical attention from a maester who used penicillin mold/boiled wine as antibiotics/disinfectant (which there is precedence since those substances have been used in the books). The armor likely mitigated full penetration. Traditionally leather armor was worn over chainmail and a padded dense cotton shirt, so it might not have even reached a vital point.


----------



## takotakumi

Ep 4 has been leaked on 360p quality if anyone's interested :v

I will wait for HD sunday since this one looks extra spicy from the images people have been spamming on comments


----------



## KnightBrolaire

takotakumi said:


> Ep 4 has been leaked on 360p quality if anyone's interested :v
> 
> I will wait for HD sunday since this one looks extra spicy from the images people have been spamming on comments


it's also the shortest episode in the season at only 50 mins


----------



## wankerness

Now THAT was an episode. I can't comprehend how anyone would want to have seen it at 360p, it was one of the most spectacular in the show's history. I was on edge for the entire last 20 minutes, that was as thrilling as hell. It was easily one of the best episodes in the last four seasons, if not THE best.


----------



## takotakumi

wankerness said:


> Now THAT was an episode. I can't comprehend how anyone would want to have seen it at 360p, it was one of the most spectacular in the show's history. I was on edge for the entire last 20 minutes, that was as thrilling as hell. It was easily one of the best episodes in the last four seasons, if not THE best.


Completely agree. Im so glad i skipped the 360 bs, this was worth it.
Its the shortest but damn if it is not one of the best they've released.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Yep, this episode is easily on par with the wall fights.


----------



## lewis

KnightBrolaire said:


> Yep, this episode is easily on par with the wall fights.


I agree.
My favorite episode so far was Snow vs Ramsay with the wall fights just 2nd. This one was right up there though.


----------



## asfeir

Good Episode but for me the best remains the Battle of the bastards


----------



## bostjan

5 stars.

I now know where the budget from the last few episodes went. The visuals were stunning and the suspense was incredible. Now that characters are coalescing, we will inevitable have to say goodbye to some of them as things get more heated.


----------



## extendedsolo

wankerness said:


> Now THAT was an episode. I can't comprehend how anyone would want to have seen it at 360p, it was one of the most spectacular in the show's history. I was on edge for the entire last 20 minutes, that was as thrilling as hell. It was easily one of the best episodes in the last four seasons, if not THE best.


I liked Hardhome a little better because it was almost like a big reveal for the actual enemy. 
It was one of the only times I audibly cheered for a TV show.


----------



## bostjan

extendedsolo said:


> I liked Hardhome a little better because it was almost like a big reveal for the actual enemy.
> It was one of the only times I audibly cheered for a TV show.



This last battle was similar, though, because


Spoiler



the dragons are the secret weapon against the army of the dead. Think about it, you have an army of wights, immune to everything except fire, and the others/white-walkers who are allergic to dragon-glass and valerian steel (which is steel forged in dragon's fire), so what do you think dragons would do to the army of the dead? So, we got to see how the thing, that is the ultimate game-changer for all of the characters who survive long enough to make it to the final battle, works in battle.



Also, a lot of character development in the last episode.



Spoiler



Dany stops taking advice and starts to think on her own again, which will be necessary later on.
Jon and Dany are now allies.
Bron chose mission over money, therefore showing he's completed his character arc.
Dickon is now a warrior. I have a feeling we'll see more of him later.

And coming up:
Bran/Arya/Sansa are set up to deal with a bunch of Stark family stuff now, which will somehow involve Littlefinger, but hasn't started to play out just yet.
Speaking of Bran, now that he's at the Weirwood and is out of immediate danger, he must be seeing some things. It seems that the show is purposely not telling us about what he's seeing. Obviously, the dagger he gave Arya is going to be super important later on. He knows stuff about Jon that no one else in the story knows, but it looks like it might be a while before Jon is back in Winterfell to hear about it. It seems he likely also knows some things about Littlefinger that the audience doesn't know yet, and I'm sure there are other things. I guess there will probably be an episode at some point dedicated to Bran.
Assuming the money made it to the Iron Bank (I was hoping Dany was going to intercept that carriage), Cersei must have another card up her sleeve for later. Frankly, though, with so little screen time left, I'm ready for Cersei to simply die or whatever, so we can get back to the army of the dead and the real point of the entire series.
We haven't heard from the Hound in a couple episodes now. Everyone else's storylines have been moving a little every other episode. The next episode will probably go back to Sam and something going on with Euron.
And are we ever going to hear anything else from the blacksmith's son / Robert's oldest living son? I forget what HBO called him, but he was last seen several years ago in a boat, escaping human sacrifice. Are we to assume he died? If not, it seems he should reappear at some point, otherwise, his entire arc is inconsequential.


----------



## mongey

Great episode. 

Think the last 3 are going to be epic


----------



## mongey

Great episode. 

Think the last 3 are going to be epic


----------



## wankerness

Here's why I thought this episode was so much better than the last "spectacle" episodes - this was the first time we've ever had main characters that we (well, I) cared about on both sides!! The last few have been like, Jon Snow vs a big horde of (mostly faceless) wildlings and giants, or Jon Snow vs a bunch of zombies/white walkers, or Jon Snow vs Ramsay (who we all hated and were sure was going to lose besides!!!). I think the last one where we had likable characters on both sides was season 2, where we had Davos on one side and Tyrion on the other, but the way things went down there it was really a non-issue and there was no tension except whether Tyrion would win. Plus, we'd barely seen him at that point so I don't remember caring about him.

This time we had Jamie/Bronn vs Danaerys and the dragons. Like, seriously, I think Bronn might have been THE ONLY character they could have put on that crossbow that would have made me so conflicted about the outcome!!! I love that guy! But damn, I wanted to see Daenerys destroy everything and really didn't want that dragon shot down!!

I also liked what they were doing with this sort of pushing Daenerys over into gray area territory, with Tyrion clearly disturbed by how brutally the army was being exterminated. Ah well. I guess since she was only frying soldiers, she didn't exactly do what Jon Snow had warned her about with having to avoid destroying a city to maintain her superiority over "everyone else."

So yeah, obviously the last part of the episode was the highlight, but there was some other great stuff in there. I was so relieved that Arya got into Winterfell, I was worried they were going to do something idiotic with those two infuriating soldier characters and have her just leave. And her scene with Brienne was great. A lot of the other minor stuff was good and moved things forward, like having Jon and Theon reunite, and the funny way that Tyrion and Varys were crumpled when they had to give the bad news.

Again, GREAT episode, easily one of the very best since season 3. I doubt they can top this the rest of the season (how could they possibly even AFFORD to do something else like this?!), but I hope they can!


----------



## mongey

wankerness said:


> But damn, I wanted to see Daenerys destroy everything and really didn't want that dragon shot down!!
> 
> !






Spoiler



totally with you there. when Bron was aiming up me and the wife were screaming "No, move out the way " at the tv


----------



## Andromalia

There is one thing that I regret....



Spoiler



I wish Bronn had shot the dragon for the following dialogue

Jaime: "Well done ser Bronn of the Blackwater"
Bronn: "Dude, that's Bronn Dragonslayer now."


----------



## chopeth

wankerness said:


> This time we had Jamie/Bronn vs Danaerys and the dragons. Like, seriously, I think Bronn might have been THE ONLY character they could have put on that crossbow that would have made me so conflicted about the outcome!!! I love that guy! But damn, I wanted to see Daenerys destroy everything and really didn't want that dragon shot down!!



ha ha, same here, I surprised myself yelling at the screen as I were a teenager fanboy jerk (which I actually am except for the teenager thing) with the last episode. So exciting and huge cliff-hanger at the end... when I saw Jamie I was like... please, not the credits now, one more scene, not now... xD


----------



## takotakumi

wankerness said:


> And her scene with Brienne was great.



Anyone play dark souls here? While watching that scene all I could think of was Dex(Arya) vs Strength (Brienne) haha


----------



## KnightBrolaire

takotakumi said:


> Anyone plays dark souls here? While watching that scence all I could think of is Dex(Arya) vs Strength (Brienne) haha


straight up ricard's rapier/assasin's dagger vs longsword duel lol


----------



## bostjan

Last night's episode was pretty good, huh?

I was wrong about one prediction, and a lot of characters are developing in different ways now. There was a little bit of action last night, but moreso building up to new things.



Spoiler



What is Littlefinger up to? Is Arya still naive enough to fall into his trap?

What do you think of the dream team of Jon, Gendry, Tormund, Jorah, Sandor, and Beric? I find it interesting that all of those characters have, in a way, been brought back to life, and they are going to face the Army of the Dead.


----------



## Xaios

bostjan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> What is Littlefinger up to? Is Arya still naive enough to fall into his trap?
> 
> What do you think of the dream team of Jon, Gendry, Tormund, Jorah, Sandor, and Beric? I find it interesting that all of those characters have, in a way, been brought back to life, and they are going to face the Army of the Dead.





Spoiler



The dream team seems sweet, can't wait to see Beric mow down some undead with the flaming sword. 

As far as Arya goes, I don't think it really boils down to naivety on her part, but rather Littlefinger's experience. Arya, for all skills in assassination, doesn't have Littlefinger's experience or insight. Littlefinger is likely someone that has already survived multiple plots against him, and may even recognize Arya's training as being the mark of the Faceless Men. He probably simply recognized the situation that he was in and took preemptive measures. It's also not surprising that he know he was being watched even when he couldn't physically detect Arya doing so, simply because he probably has finely honed instincts in that respect. For my part, during the scene in which Arya found the scroll under his mattress, I knew that it was likely a plant, and that, at the very least, he was aware of her presence in his room.


----------



## lewis

bostjan said:


> Last night's episode was pretty good, huh?
> 
> I was wrong about one prediction, and a lot of characters are developing in different ways now. There was a little bit of action last night, but moreso building up to new things.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> What is Littlefinger up to? Is Arya still naive enough to fall into his trap?
> 
> What do you think of the dream team of Jon, Gendry, Tormund, Jorah, Sandor, and Beric? I find it interesting that all of those characters have, in a way, been brought back to life, and they are going to face the Army of the Dead.





Spoiler



the warhammer action is so cool!. About time we got some brutal weaponry rather than swords. Smashing the dudes face in was sweeet. I cant wait to see the dream team in battle!. Thats suich a great team too. Also Dany..."I didnt give you permission to leave" to John?. She <3's him haha. Cant wait for next weeks ep. Trouble is I can see this series ending on a cliff hanger and we are going to have what a 2 year wait until the final season?. Sidenote Littlefinger is such a douche. Cannot stand him


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Best line ever...."The big woman?"


----------



## bostjan

That one was pretty good.

There hasn't been much time for romance in _Game of Thrones_, but there was in past years.



Spoiler



One prevalent theory is that Jon Snow and Danerys are going to become an item, since they were basically prophesied to go there, and since there seems to be some awkward chemistry between them. Every time I hear this theory, though, I can't help but think of how it would happen kind of like Joe Dirt...
A) Targaryans are known for their penchant for incestuous relationships.
B) Dany finds out


Spoiler



Jon is actually the son of her brother and Ned Stark's sister.


C) Suddenly Dany has the hots for Jon.
Just like Joe Dirt, when


Spoiler



he thought Jaime Pressley's character was his sister.






EDIT: Cool, you can nest spoiler tags!


Spoiler






Spoiler






Spoiler






Spoiler



Woot!


----------



## mongey

I like where its going but .. 



Spoiler



Not sure how I fell about the Gandry thing .it feels a bit like they had this story arc that really went no where so they just chucked him into the mix to tie it off. 

see what they do with it


----------



## Element0s

I do feel like many of the episodes this season have been rushed, or even forced at times. The high points have been great but there have been more annoying cringy fan-service moments than previous seasons.

The Lannister vs. Targaryan battle was very good and I generally enjoy all the Jon Snow moments


----------



## wankerness

Throwing in "new" characters with less than ten episodes remaining (he's been gone and unmentioned so long that he almost is) in the series seems stupid, but I guess the magnificent seven needed some more cannon fodder as the hound, Jon, and probably Tormund are invincible right now.

One thing that is really bad this season is the attempt to have sexual tension between Jon and Daenerys. There is literally zero between the actors. Jon just looks constipated in every scene with her, and she just looks smug. Every romance with either on the show has been carried by the other actor (Ygritte being the best example). Put the two together, and we see how little charisma they really have!!

Littlefinger is still a POS. Good job manipulating Arya, though, since now she's ALSO kind of a POS. I just wanted to smack her in every scene she was in this week, she's becoming unbearable. I guess probably by design, but ugh.


----------



## bostjan

Maybe Littlefinger turn out to secretly be the hero of the entire plot...


----------



## SD83

wankerness said:


> Littlefinger is still a POS. Good job manipulating Arya, though, since now she's ALSO kind of a POS. I just wanted to smack her in every scene she was in this week, she's becoming unbearable. I guess probably by design, but ugh.



I don't dislike her that much, but with her and Sansa, I'd root for Sansa by now, but every time I think she is finally understanding the game, she just returns to being old Sansa again. I would have liked to see more of the woman who set Ramsays dogs loose on him, but it seems that's not about to happen in season 7. But as for Arya, at least this season I care about her. Reading the books, after she arrived in Bravos, I soon started skipping her chapters alltogether. They could as well have given Gendry half a dozen chapters of him just rowing, it would have done exactly the same for the story and would have been about as entertaining. 

As for Jon & Daenerys... I think the whole romance thing kind of comes across from her part. I agree that it has been done better (and worse), but if you want to, you can read that into her. Jon on the other hand seems to be worried about the White Walkers 24/7.


----------



## takotakumi

JFC another leak haha this time by HBO themselves.
They accidentally aired it in Spain.

My friends are telling me that this time, unlike the other one, the leaks are in 1080p :v


----------



## crankyrayhanky

bostjan said:


> Last night's episode was pretty good, huh?


I actually fell asleep on it and returned to finish it the the next day. There were a few good moments, but overall the flow was a bit weak too often. 
That being said, it's the only show I watch, so as critical as that sounds, I'm still on board. TV generally sucks. 



SD83 said:


> As for Jon & Daenerys... I think the whole romance thing kind of comes across from her part. I agree that it has been done better (and worse), but if you want to, you can read that into her. Jon on the other hand seems to be worried about the White Walkers 24/7.


"There's no time for that!" Wow. Dude is just not into you.


----------



## bostjan

crankyrayhanky said:


> I actually fell asleep on it and returned to finish it the the next day. There were a few good moments, but overall the flow was a bit weak too often.
> That being said, it's the only show I watch, so as critical as that sounds, I'm still on board. TV generally sucks.



You're right. I used to not watch television when I felt like my own life was more exciting.


----------



## FILTHnFEAR

Kinda pissed right now. Scrolling through FB and wham, some jackoff posted screenshots from the leaked episodes on a post not at all GOT related. I really, really, really hate people some times.


----------



## takotakumi

Everyone here please try your best to not get spoiled...this is easily the best episode of the season for me, its gonna be hard
for the finale to top this imo haha

One of my friends in our group chat got mad at another guy for not wanting to share his hbo go so the fucker spoiled the ending to all of us 
blocked that fucker indefinitely 
This could've easily gone from a 11/10 to a 200/10 for me if it wasn't cause he spoiled the the most "OMG SHIIIID" scene


----------



## wankerness

Thanks for the warning! It's social media blackout for me until I watch it!


----------



## wankerness

Arya is SUCH a piece of shit. God, I hate watching her. Pretty good episode otherwise. After the posts above, I was expecting major characters to get killed. On the human side, only redshirts (they seemed to spawn whenever a visual death had to happen, they had literally no lines or closeups apart from dying!!!) and manbun priest guy died. I mean, we all saw the ending coming from seasons away if we ever played Warcraft 3, right?


----------



## SD83

How long can these guys hold their breath? First Bronn & Jaime get away from Dany, and now Jon... also, the wights and the water. It seemed for most of the episode that falling into that icey lake was rather bad for them, especially when some fell in with Jon and the only one that makes it out is the only person who has to breath, but then they somehow attach those massive chains to the dragon. 
I'm curious about the finale. And who's going to die. Hope they keep The Hound & Tormund around and together for a while longer, those were a good deal more entertaining than Bronn & Jaime.


----------



## SD83

Since I apparently can't edit my former post, something I just realised watching it the second time: Why do the other wights try to free the captured one? They usually don't seem to care if they lose a few hundred or more... is that just an excuse to bring a bit more variety to the action scenes or is there an actual reason? Does the Night King see the propability of a unified army of the living, and see that as a threat?


----------



## MFB

SD83 said:


> How long can these guys hold their breath? First Bronn & Jaime get away from Dany, and now Jon... also, the wights and the water. It seemed for most of the episode that falling into that icey lake was rather bad for them, especially when some fell in with Jon and the only one that makes it out is the only person who has to breath, but then they somehow attach those massive chains to the dragon.



If I were the Night King, I'd just throw the chain to any Wights now stuck at the bottom of the lake and have them attach it to the dragon. Makes the most sense, they're already down there and can do the work, no need to waste other bodies.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Was anyone else really bothered by the teleporting on the show? There's no way dany's dragons could fly from dragonstone to north of the wall that quickly. It's supposed to be thousands of miles, so unless jon and the boys were sitting on that island for a couple of days, she wouldn't have reached them very quickly. The fight scenes were excellent. Tormund is still one of my favorites. The whole Arya vaguely threatening Sansa bit was basically just filler as far as I'm concerned (just like grey worm/missandei banging a couple episodes back).


----------



## wankerness

Arya threatening Sansa might NOT be filler, and that's the real problem, since it's such a manufactured, STUPID issue that could be solved in an instant if any character behaved remotely intelligently. It's AWFUL. Maybe, I dunno, GO ASK THE PSYCHIC GUY IN THE HOUSE THAT CAN SEE EVERYTHING EVER? Instead, we get Sansa sending Brienne off like a tard and setting us all up for yet another Littlefinger coup. GREATTTTt

Benjen's character existing for all these seasons just to finally show up for 15 seconds to give jon his horse is kind of hilarious.

Here was something I saw posted about the teleporting yesterday:






"This is a map of westeros.
1. Gendry ran to eastwatch, from that mountainrange.

2. They sent a raven from eastwatch to dragonstone (roughly halfway across westeros).

3. Daenerys flew from dragonstone to the north. Presumably, she did not have an exact location, but even if we asume she did, it's still quite a long flight.

So you tell me, how long do you think this would take?"

If they'd just had Dany at Eastwatch, they could have avoided so much silliness. The whole Night King spear thing was dumb, too - instead of hitting the one 100 feet from him with all the people on it, he aims for the flying one really far away? Plot armor, indeed. Should have just had the positioning of everything make more sense.


----------



## bostjan

KnightBrolaire said:


> Was anyone else really bothered by the teleporting on the show? There's no way dany's dragons could fly from dragonstone to north of the wall that quickly. It's supposed to be thousands of miles, so unless jon and the boys were sitting on that island for a couple of days, she wouldn't have reached them very quickly. The fight scenes were excellent. Tormund is still one of my favorites. The whole Arya vaguely threatening Sansa bit was basically just filler as far as I'm concerned (just like grey worm/missandei banging a couple episodes back).


That really bothered me. Visually, the fighting scenes were absolutely great, but there were several weird things about the episode that threw it off from otherwise being an awesome experience. There is no flipping way that all of that stuff would happen before our heroes would have staved to death.
The Arya/Sansa thing is not as bad, to me. They are both still quite young, and regardless of their experience level, they still behaved consistently within their characters, even though you would have hoped to see some character development or whatever. Bran behaving weirdly and not being willing to do anything to use his powers to help his family (and basically just sitting there brooding for the entire season so far) is frustrating.
The chemistry between Danerys and Jon still seems forced, although the acting was notably better.

Anyway, the bigger plot points in the episode were great and the visuals were great. The next one is going to have to step up the game, though. ...or not, probably, there are enough die hard fans who wouldn't miss it.


----------



## SD83

It's not the first time we have that teleporting issue. If I remember correctly, the most obvious case so far seemed Varys teleporting back & forth between Dorne & Dany. That is also something that pissed me off with the books, Martin outright refuses (and he even said he did that on purpose, and that readers should not bother themselves with it that much and just enjoy the story, which seems odd considering how much effort he put into making up dozens, if not hundred of storylines for thousands of characters, all interfering with each other) to deliver even the most basic clues as to what day it is and how far any two places are away from each other. A new chapters begins, and sometimes they might happen at the same time, some might take place days after the previous chapter, or months, and you're never told. You can't even say "There's no way they could get there that fast" because you have no idea how fast they actually got there as you have no idea how much time has passed. That was one of the great thing about LotR, it was consistent. You could usually take the map and track the paths of the protagonists, and you could keep track of how many days passed and it all worked out. (To be fair, my favourite LotR-related book is probably "The Atlas of Middle-Earth"  )

EDIT: Found this
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KAqa9wwODqaFkegqf8Si6fmuE55-M-GMIj0ZmcKUFxs/edit
Since I recently restarted reading, I had the first book at hand and judging by the 410 miles between Dragonstone and Gulltown, we have about 2400 miles to Eastwatch, give or take maybe a few hundred. If someone is trying to tell me a dragon can do that in a day, that is stupid enough. Maybe he can set fire to his farts and thus his digestive system becomes a biological jet engine or something. But a raven? A raven wouldn't even be in Winterfell after a week.

(That said, it's still an amazing show)


----------



## KnightBrolaire

SD83 said:


> It's not the first time we have that teleporting issue. If I remember correctly, the most obvious case so far seemed Varys teleporting back & forth between Dorne & Dany. That is also something that pissed me off with the books, Martin outright refuses (and he even said he did that on purpose, and that readers should not bother themselves with it that much and just enjoy the story, which seems odd considering how much effort he put into making up dozens, if not hundred of storylines for thousands of characters, all interfering with each other) to deliver even the most basic clues as to what day it is and how far any two places are away from each other. A new chapters begins, and sometimes they might happen at the same time, some might take place days after the previous chapter, or months, and you're never told. You can't even say "There's no way they could get there that fast" because you have no idea how fast they actually got there as you have no idea how much time has passed. That was one of the great thing about LotR, it was consistent. You could usually take the map and track the paths of the protagonists, and you could keep track of how many days passed and it all worked out. (To be fair, my favourite LotR-related book is probably "The Atlas of Middle-Earth"  )


the problem is the whole teleporting nonsense didn't start til the later books. In the first couple of books he consistently mentions how it's quite a vast distance to go from kings landing to the wall (it took a few weeks for davos to even sail to white harbor from dragonstone, it would take longer to go to eastwatch) or from the eyrie to riverrun (it still takes tyrion like a week or two on horseback iirc ). Unless those dragons can cover thousands of miles in the span of a day or two, it's teleportation lol. Don't even get me started on the deus ex machina bullshit/plot armor keeping jon alive. It's almost as bad as in true blood where sookie's grandpa LITERALLY RIPS OPEN A FUCKING PORTAL TO THE FAERIE REALM AT THE LAST SECOND TO SAVE HER FROM BEING KILLED


----------



## TheDivineWing22

There have been issues with teleporting in the show. In this episode, I think the viewer is to assume it's been days since Gendry is sent to Eastwatch. It would take a considerable amount of time for the ice to re-freeze to the point of supporting he weight of the undead bodies. 

I don't believe they are more than a few hours from the wall. Maybe 1000 miles from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. If a raven/dragon can do 50mph, maybe a day or so each way, and add extra time for stopping to rest, it could be plausible.


----------



## bostjan

According to most of the maps of Westeros online (maybe the show has a smaller world than the maps on the internet show), it should be about 1900 miles between Eastwatch and Dragonstone. About the distance from Albuquerque to Philadelphia. So, if I was, say, stranded in the desert with some companions, and I managed to make a run for it to Albuquerque, say, about 6 hours running as fast as I could, and then I got there and sent a note to Philadelphia on a carrier pigeon, and then once it was there, someone got on a biplane to come help my friends, would they make it or die of exposure before help arrived?


----------



## TheShreddinHand

I feel like the deaths in this show are now going the way of the Walking Dead where major characters are teased repeatedly and nameless folks are the one's that die.


----------



## mongey

I tonight it was good . it was a pretty bad teleport flaw that could've been easily avoided with a little planning in the writing, but in a world of people coming back to life and dragons I can over look it . but in reality , all it needed was for them to have supplies to survive a few days 

on sansa and arya



Spoiler



anyone else think it was weird sansa was talking to little finger about keeping brienne around to keep the peace ,and then she was kinda being weird sending her away .made me wonder if it was arya posing as sansa . but she cant make a face without killing them right ?
I need to rewatch it and see what I think 

story wise I don't have an issue with it. they were always polar opposites and little finger is playing them


----------



## KnightBrolaire

TheDivineWing22 said:


> There have been issues with teleporting in the show. In this episode, I think the viewer is to assume it's been days since Gendry is sent to Eastwatch. It would take a considerable amount of time for the ice to re-freeze to the point of supporting he weight of the undead bodies.
> 
> I don't believe they are more than a few hours from the wall. Maybe 1000 miles from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. If a raven/dragon can do 50mph, maybe a day or so each way, and add extra time for stopping to rest, it could be plausible.


considering I live in minnesota, I know a thing or two about ice.  Fun fact: Minnesota is colder than Iceland (where they film all the wall scenes/beyond the wall scenes) on average. Average low/high ranges from 12F to 40 from Dec-Mar for Minneapolis and in Iceland it's 22F-24F for the same months. Since it's freshwater ice it'll likely refreeze like that in a day or two. You really don't need that thick of ice to support a lot of weight, some of the smaller lakes near me freeze up to a foot thick in spots, but basically anything over 4-6 inches and you can drive a snowmobile/vehicle onto the ice. I stand by the most realistic timeframe being at least 3-4 days for Dany to get to jon's crew, provided her dragon can range several hundred miles per day and the raven is teleporting to her.


----------



## SD83

mongey said:


> on sansa and arya
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> anyone else think it was weird sansa was talking to little finger about keeping brienne around to keep the peace ,and then she was kinda being weird sending her away .made me wonder if it was arya posing as sansa . but she cant make a face without killing them right ?
> I need to rewatch it and see what I think
> 
> story wise I don't have an issue with it. they were always polar opposites and little finger is playing them





Spoiler



The other option would be that it wasn't Littlefinger, but Arya posing as him. I was thinking about how that would be a nice twist for the final season, to have Arya kill him off screen between seasons, nobody finds out, and the only major hint would be that the two of them are never in the same shot, and it isn't revealed until episode 4 or 5 or so. But they weren't in the same shot in this episode, so who knows? 
That, or Sansa is finally thinking for herself a little more, has her own plans and has learned that what Littlefinger tells you to do is rarely a good idea.


----------



## bostjan

Spoiler



Littlefinger is the villain of the entire series of events south of the Wall. He was a key actor in Jon Erran's death, orchestrated Ned's manipulation into following the same path, and he's been at least somewhat involved in several other plots since then. To kill him off-screen would be pretty tactless, although, who knows where the show is going at this point.
I think there might be enough of Bran left in the Three Eyed Raven that it was foreshadowing Littlefinger's demise with the dagger. As much as I'd like to think that Arya will use it against a White Walker at some point, I's really thinking it's more of a revenge thing.


----------



## Drew

You know, at first some of the continuity stuff bugged me a little, but at this point, I think I don't care. The writers are basically working off Martin's scribbled notes since he can't be bothered to stop blogging about fantasy football and how much he hates Tom Brady, so if they're playing fast and furious with geography and things like "where can we find giant metal chains beyond the wall" and whatnot, at least we're advancing the plot, you know?  

I haven't gone back and reread the 80 pages of discussion to get caught up, so maybe someone else has made this argument before, but... On Jon's parentage and the whole R+L=J thing...



Spoiler



I think we're being trolled. I don't think Jon is Rhaegar's son.

Couple reasons, and unfortunately I don't have a concrete alternative yet. 

1) The show, for all its coy glances and winks from across the room, _still_ hasn't confirmed it. We have pretty good assurances he's not Ned's son - it's out of character, for one, and while the cut from Lyanna's baby to Jon Snow doesn't prove anything, it's a massive coincidence that Lyanna secretly gives birth right about the time Jon would be born. I think it's reasonably clear that Lyanna was Jon's father. But, importantly (and the NY Times recap was kind of funny about this, running on and on about Jon being a Targaryen while even agknowledging at this point that Bran still hasn't seen a vision showing who Jon's father is, and nonetheless assuming that Lyanna being the mother means Rhaegar is the father), there's no evidence yet that Rhaegar is Jon's father. There's Rhaegar's annulment and remarriage in Dorne, and the Tower of Joy is in Dorne... but, again, that doesn't _prove_ anything. If after all this setup, we get a "hey you guys! Guess what! Rhaegar is Jon's dad!" reveal, well, that's going to be the least-surprising reveal in all of television history. For a series and a show that loves to shock, that just doesn't fit. 

The other thing I'll add: 

2) Littlefinger knows, or claims to know, who Jon's parents are. In fact, for a while I was thinking Littlefinger might have been Jon's father, for this, but I'm less convinced (though it's still possible, and it's not like Littlefinger doesn't have a thing for Stark women and hadn't alluded to certain improprieties with _both_ sisters in the books. And, he very well could be the "him" in the "if robert finds out, he'll kill him" Lyanna whispers). Oddly, however, Varys (the OTHER purveyor of information in Westeros) does NOT know who Jon's parents are, or if he does, he doesn't seem to think he's a Targaryen. If Rhaegar IS Jon's father, then conditionally it becomes far more likely that Lyanna also was the woman he secretly married, and Jon has a better claim to the Targaryen throne than Dany. Jon's appearance in Dragonstone, then, would have been a source of some concern for Varys if he knew Jon was a Targaryen. Additionally, Littlefinger and Varys have at times been allies - if Littlefinger knows, he seems to have had a reason to keep it from Varys. I don't know what to make of this yet, but either Varys also knows and Jon's father isn't a Targaryen, or Littlefinger is keeping a secret here for some reason. Not sure what to make of this yet, but I think it could be important. 

Idunno, I'm still thinking my way through this, but the Lyanna reveal was conspicuous in only confirming one parent yet the whole world immediately assumed both, which seemed odd, and then when Littlefinger seemed to have knowledge, something felt wrong about the theory.


----------



## bostjan

God points, Drew.


Spoiler



I think the discussion to be had is why all information about L+R=J would be so strongly teased, but so obviously stop short of coming out and saying it. It seems like they might want us to assume some slight of hand is involved here, and there must be a reason why it is that way.


----------



## vividox

It's still a writing problem, though. If you want to condense plot, fine, condense it, but don't half-ass it.

Here is what the show did:
Tyrion/Davos go to King's Landing from Dragonstone. They pick up Gendry and Tyrion has a two minute conversation with Jaime. They go back to Dragonstone. Jon et al go to Eastwatch. They range north. They get surrounded and Gendry runs back. A raven flies from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. Dany flies from Dragonstone to north of Eastwatch and somehow a boat gets up there too.

Here is what they should have done:
No one goes to King's Landing. Gendry is fan service and Tyrion doesn't need to meet with Jaime for the crazy ass "Let's get Cersei a wight for Christmas!" plot to work. Jon bends the knee to Dany on the condition that she brings the dragons to help capture a wight. Jon, Dany, dragons, everyone goes to Eastwatch, then north. They fight the white walkers. Everything goes down just like it did in S07E06. 

All you'd lose is the Gendry fan service, the two minute conversation between Tyrion and Jaime, and the infuriating teleportation. Was that really so freakin' hard?


----------



## bostjan

Why do you keep calling it fan service? Does Gendry have a huge following online or something? 

All of the teleporting is a bit annoying, but, honestly, is it make or break for anyone? I think you could knock a star off a review for how silly the teleportation thing is, but if everything else is awesome, I'm going to enjoy the show - and I am.

I will say, though, that a big portion of my little annoyances with the show are how it's being paced. It seems like things are really kind of rushing now. The first season seemed a little bit rushed, then it seemed like they were taking their time for a little while, and now it feels just a lot more rushed to me. Ultimately, I'm not the one making the show, though, but that's just my feeling about watching it.

It's still one of the better shows on television, but really, that's not saying much, with how contrived most shows are these days.


----------



## SD83

I don't see how the Jon/Dany part would work out though. Him bending the knee on Dragonstone would not really fit, but her saying "OK, you bend the knee, and we're off to Eastwatch, dragons and all, how about that?" makes even less sense than teleporting ravens. To me, at least.

As for fan service: There were a lot of people constantly wondering "Where is Gendry? Is he still rowing?" It all really depends on his part in season 8. Many apparently expected him to die in episode 6, him surviving makes it seem a lot less like fan service but more like he might have a role to play. After all, he is Roberts only surviving child in the show as far as I know (Mya Stone should be in the Vale, but she is not in the show).


----------



## lewis

Spoiler



So Dany loses a dragon but gains Jon Snow to ride instead? Nice.


----------



## Drew

bostjan said:


> God points, Drew.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I think the discussion to be had is why all information about L+R=J would be so strongly teased, but so obviously stop short of coming out and saying it. It seems like they might want us to assume some slight of hand is involved here, and there must be a reason why it is that way.



That's pretty much the crux of it, man. You could elaborate all you want, but especially for a show that loves shocks, why dedicate so much time teasing it, when you could be advancing other storylines? 



Spoiler



Another friend of mine I've been talking with this about - and, full disclosure, 90% of the people I know who watch the show tell me I'm crazy for not believing Rhaegar is Jon's father - quipped, "if Rhaegar isn't Jon's father, then it doesn't matter who is, since no one cares he's a bastard anymore." Which is actually a useful filter; if Rhaegar _isn't_ Jon's father, then who his father is DOES matter, and will be important to the plot, since there's no point to it being a surprise just for the hell of it. That's actually another reason to think maybe it IS Littlefinger, since Jon killing Littlefinger is a totally plausible outcome, if Arya doesn't get to him first, seeing as he pretty much IS the major villian of all of he action below the wall.


----------



## bostjan

Drew said:


> That's pretty much the crux of it, man. You could elaborate all you want, but especially for a show that loves shocks, why dedicate so much time teasing it, when you could be advancing other storylines?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Another friend of mine I've been talking with this about - and, full disclosure, 90% of the people I know who watch the show tell me I'm crazy for not believing Rhaegar is Jon's father - quipped, "if Rhaegar isn't Jon's father, then it doesn't matter who is, since no one cares he's a bastard anymore." Which is actually a useful filter; if Rhaegar _isn't_ Jon's father, then who his father is DOES matter, and will be important to the plot, since there's no point to it being a surprise just for the hell of it. That's actually another reason to think maybe it IS Littlefinger, since Jon killing Littlefinger is a totally plausible outcome, if Arya doesn't get to him first, seeing as he pretty much IS the major villian of all of he action below the wall.





Spoiler



Plus, it puts a whole new spin on Littlefinger's motives to show up and save Jon at the Battle of the Bastards and why he's skulking around Winterfell now. I think Little finger makes almost as much sense as Rhaegar, and I love the thought of a second-most obvious outcome, especially when everyone is so assured that the first most likely is definite.



Plus, half the fun of stories like this is discussing all of the hypothetical stuff like this.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> Why do you keep calling it fan service? Does Gendry have a huge following online or something?


Only calling it fan service because the only reason you bring back a character like Gendry is for the sake of nostalgia. Gendry's storyline could have been completely done and it wouldn't have been a problem. There is still the whole kingsblood thread and maybe he can smith a bunch of dragonglass, so it's not like I have a huge problem with him coming back or anything, but it seems like a really run-about way to bring him back into the cast.



bostjan said:


> All of the teleporting is a bit annoying, but, honestly, is it make or break for anyone? I think you could knock a star off a review for how silly the teleportation thing is, but if everything else is awesome, I'm going to enjoy the show - and I am.
> 
> I will say, though, that a big portion of my little annoyances with the show are how it's being paced. It seems like things are really kind of rushing now. The first season seemed a little bit rushed, then it seemed like they were taking their time for a little while, and now it feels just a lot more rushed to me. Ultimately, I'm not the one making the show, though, but that's just my feeling about watching it.
> 
> It's still one of the better shows on television, but really, that's not saying much, with how contrived most shows are these days.


I'm still enjoying the show and I'm finishing it no matter what. I just hate seeing these kinds of inconsistencies in any medium. Plot holes suck. Yeah, it's a bit of a small gripe when you step back and look at the bigger picture, but it's still so insanely easy to avoid. And like you said, it makes this season feel quite a bit different from previous seasons. I'm not here to throw the entire series out or anything.


----------



## bostjan

^ Agreed.

To me, though, it seemed like they strongly led us to believe Gendry would be back at some point, the way things were left. It's GoT, after all, so, if someone dies, you will see it on screen. Fan service, to me, is bringing in a character or whatever for no long-term purpose at all. Gendry already served a purpose in the overall plot, so, to me, fan service is ruled out. You can still point out the flaws in the writing, but Gendry ended up saving the day for Jon and Sandor and Beric and Tormund and ser Notappearingeveragainintheseries. Now, for example, if there was a specific person who wanted a bit part in GoT, despite it being so late in the show, so the writers included a completely superfluous cameo for that person to appear, and it threw off the pacing of an episode, that might be fan service, but GoT writers would never do that at this point. For example, they would never take a singer/songwriter type guy and write him into a scene in the show otherwise completely disconnected from the overall plot, and just have him singing around a campfire or something dumb like that. The show's writers are way above that.


----------



## Drew

bostjan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, it puts a whole new spin on Littlefinger's motives to show up and save Jon at the Battle of the Bastards and why he's skulking around Winterfell now. I think Little finger makes almost as much sense as Rhaegar, and I love the thought of a second-most obvious outcome, especially when everyone is so assured that the first most likely is definite.
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, half the fun of stories like this is discussing all of the hypothetical stuff like this.





Spoiler



Honestly, there was a time I was convinced it WAS Littlefinger - he seems to be the only one who knows who Jon's father is, and the show keeps refusing to confirm it. He also definitely has a thing for the Stark women, and in the books at least claims certain improprieties with _both_ of them growing up. And while the assumption is Lyanna is telling Ned that Robert will kill the kid, it's also totally believable that she means the father, and Littlefinger would be a sitting duck. The biggest issue there, then, is why Rhaegar would keep Lyanna safe with two of the Kingsguard - it may be as simple as she asked, he's an honorable man, and smitten with her beauty. 

The irony of Littlefinger, arguably the biggest human villain of the series, being the father of Jon, the guy who seems to be shaping up to be at least one of the heroes, would be pretty rich. As to would be the fact that if you want to take odds on how Littlefinger would die, then Jon is probably the second most likely culprit, after Arya.


----------



## bpprox22

We already know who is Jon's father don't we? 


Spoiler



We already know for a fact that Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's mother and not Ned's bastard son.

Now the only piece left is confirming who Jon's father is.

However, didn't HBO quietly confirm Rhaegar is Jon Snow's father with this infographic?





Source: http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/...nections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic

This was posted on the official HBO blog. It would be kind of difficult for someone to convince me otherwise...


> _Making Game of Thrones_ is the official HBO destination for a behind-the-scenes look at the series.
> 
> Find interviews with the cast and crew, event coverage, exclusive images and other superfan essentials.
> 
> © 2015 Home Box Office, Inc. All Rights Reserved. This website is intended for viewing solely in the United States. This website may contain adult content.


----------



## Drew

bpprox22 said:


> We already know who is Jon's father don't we?
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> We already know for a fact that Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's mother and not Ned's bastard son.
> 
> Now the only piece left is confirming who Jon's father is.
> 
> However, didn't HBO quietly confirm Rhaegar is Jon Snow's father with this infographic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/...nections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic
> 
> This was posted on the official HBO blog. It would be kind of difficult for someone to convince me otherwise...





Spoiler



We really don't, though, is the thing. 

Let's be honest - the producers and cast have not had a problem straight up lying for plot effect outside of the show, right up to Kit Harrington explicily saying in interviews, "Jon Snow is dead. Let it go," when asked if he was coming back. Briefly linking an infographic that seems to confirm a fan theory and then taking it down 1) is totally plausible and not out of character, and 2) isn't officially part of the story arc until it's confirmed within the show. 

Over and above that, here's what we actually KNOW: 

1)I suppose technically we don't know for 100% sure, even with the cut from her baby to Jon's face, but we know Ned found Lyanna having just given birth in the Tower of Joy, and she asked Ned to "keep him safe, and protect him," presumably (but to be fair, not necessarily) referring to the baby. 
2) We also know the timing is right for it to be Jon, since Ned brought a baby back from the campaign, that he probably wasn't away long enough to conceive and wait for it to be born, and it would be totally out of character for him to tarnish his honor like that. So, Lyanna asked Ned to protect the baby (most likely - unless it was the father she meant, but it seems unlikely), and Ned returns with a baby he claims as his own. For me, this seems concrete enough to confirm she's Jon's mother, at least to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. 
3) We know that somewhere in Dorn, Rhaegar had a marriage annulled and remarried. We don't know who his marriage was annulled with nor who he remarried, and while fandom is quick to point to the fact that Lyanna was in Dorne at the Tower of Joy, Elia Martell herself was Dornish, and it's a little tricky to annul a marriage when you already have two kids.

Over and above that, I'll add a fourth: 

4) Drogon seemed pretty chill about Jon. This could imply the dragon recognizes him as a Targaryen, and would give credence to the argument that Tyrion was also secretly a Targaryen since he didn't get eaten alive when he freed the dragons... But, at the same time, later that season Drogon carries half a dozen men on his back and doesn't seem to really care.



Idunno. I think we have to be very clear about what we KNOW here, and what we suspect/want to believe. I think we know a lot less than everyone is commonly assuming.


----------



## bostjan

Spoiler



Jon is the perfect antithesis of Littlefinger. Littlefinger is the master of secrets and deception. Jon knows nothing and always does what he thinks is righteous. Jon is a fighter. Littlefinger always avoids a fight unless he's stabbing someone in the back. Littlefinger started as lesser nobility and has been climbing the status ladder ever since. Jon started out as a part of one of the highest ranking families and joined the Night's Watch, attempting to turn down power and authority every step. 
As pointed out - Jon seems most like the hero of the story, and Littlefinger most villainous of the human characters. Some might argue Joffrey or Cersei, but they both had some comeuppance already, and Littlefinger has not. Plus Littlefinger has consistently been where the action has been and always played some part in it, usually assassinating influential people so that he could forward his agendas, most of which we don't even understand, yet.
So, it would be shocking and poetic, on several levels, if Jon was Littlefinger's son. I don't think you could argue it as a prevailing theory, but it is certainly a juicy thing to consider as an alternate theory, and some of the pieces do fit.



Epic fantasy stories almost always have some sort of shocking twist. To be fair, it's rarely in the third act of the entire saga, but there's no reason why GoT would avoid totally shocking everyone with some sort of weird plot twist next season.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Drew said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, there was a time I was convinced it WAS Littlefinger - he seems to be the only one who knows who Jon's father is, and the show keeps refusing to confirm it. He also definitely has a thing for the Stark women, and in the books at least claims certain improprieties with _both_ of them growing up. And while the assumption is Lyanna is telling Ned that Robert will kill the kid, it's also totally believable that she means the father, and Littlefinger would be a sitting duck. The biggest issue there, then, is why Rhaegar would keep Lyanna safe with two of the Kingsguard - it may be as simple as she asked, he's an honorable man, and smitten with her beauty.
> 
> The irony of Littlefinger, arguably the biggest human villain of the series, being the father of Jon, the guy who seems to be shaping up to be at least one of the heroes, would be pretty rich. As to would be the fact that if you want to take odds on how Littlefinger would die, then Jon is probably the second most likely culprit, after Arya.


yeah except for you're confusing the tully women with lyanna stark. Catlyn and her sister are tully's and littlefinger was messing around with them growing up, not lyanna.


----------



## Drew

I think the main reason for seeing Littlefinger as the primary villain and Jon as the primary hero is as simple as, to borrow a phrase, they're not quite dead yet.


----------



## Drew

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah except for you're confusing the tully women with lyanna stark. Catlyn and her sister are tully's and littlefinger was messing around with them growing up, not lyanna.


Dammit, I AM.  Still, that's hardly the most important reason to discount the R+L=J thing. It just makes Littlefinger a smidge less likely.


----------



## bpprox22

Drew said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> We really don't, though, is the thing.
> 
> Let's be honest - the producers and cast have not had a problem straight up lying for plot effect outside of the show, right up to Kit Harrington explicily saying in interviews, "Jon Snow is dead. Let it go," when asked if he was coming back. Briefly linking an infographic that seems to confirm a fan theory and then taking it down 1) is totally plausible and not out of character, and 2) isn't officially part of the story arc until it's confirmed within the show.
> 
> Over and above that, here's what we actually KNOW:
> 
> 1)I suppose technically we don't know for 100% sure, even with the cut from her baby to Jon's face, but we know Ned found Lyanna having just given birth in the Tower of Joy, and she asked Ned to "keep him safe, and protect him," presumably (but to be fair, not necessarily) referring to the baby.
> 2) We also know the timing is right for it to be Jon, since Ned brought a baby back from the campaign, that he probably wasn't away long enough to conceive and wait for it to be born, and it would be totally out of character for him to tarnish his honor like that. So, Lyanna asked Ned to protect the baby (most likely - unless it was the father she meant, but it seems unlikely), and Ned returns with a baby he claims as his own. For me, this seems concrete enough to confirm she's Jon's mother, at least to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.
> 3) We know that somewhere in Dorn, Rhaegar had a marriage annulled and remarried. We don't know who his marriage was annulled with nor who he remarried, and while fandom is quick to point to the fact that Lyanna was in Dorne at the Tower of Joy, Elia Martell herself was Dornish, and it's a little tricky to annul a marriage when you already have two kids.
> 
> Over and above that, I'll add a fourth:
> 
> 4) Drogon seemed pretty chill about Jon. This could imply the dragon recognizes him as a Targaryen, and would give credence to the argument that Tyrion was also secretly a Targaryen since he didn't get eaten alive when he freed the dragons... But, at the same time, later that season Drogon carries half a dozen men on his back and doesn't seem to really care.
> 
> 
> 
> Idunno. I think we have to be very clear about what we KNOW here, and what we suspect/want to believe. I think we know a lot less than everyone is commonly assuming.



To your 3rd point:


Spoiler



While it doesn't prove Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it hints this is most likely what happened since at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar gave the victor's wreath (crown of winter roses) to Lyanna Stark. Lyanna is said to love winter roses -- some fans believe Rhaegar even made it ahead of time specifically for her (knowing he had a good chance of winning the tournament).

To quote Ned Stark's dream:


> Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap.



And according to tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, when a winner dedicates his victory to a woman by giving her the crown of roses, it is usually a woman he loves and/or intends to court. This would explain why "all the smiles died" since it is scandalous to do this when 1) the woman is already married or 2) you are already married.

That would also explain why the marriage was in secret because it was "frowned upon".

Again, I'm not saying this is absolute fact but I think it's difficult to say otherwise.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bpprox22 said:


> To your 3rd point:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> While it doesn't prove Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it hints this is most likely what happened since at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar gave the victor's wreath (crown of winter roses) to Lyanna Stark. Lyanna is said to love winter roses -- some fans believe Rhaegar even made it ahead of time specifically for her (knowing he had a good chance of winning the tournament).
> 
> To quote Ned Stark's dream:
> 
> 
> And according to tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, when a winner dedicates his victory to a woman by giving her the crown of roses, it is usually a woman he loves and/or intends to court. This would explain why "all the smiles died" since it is scandalous to do this when 1) the woman is already married or 2) you are already married.
> 
> That would also explain why the marriage was in secret because it was "frowned upon".
> 
> Again, I'm not saying this is absolute fact but I think it's difficult to say otherwise.


I was just about to cite that part too. I find it highly improbable that littlefinger would have had a relationship with lyanna and she kept it a secret from ned. Plus, if Jon was related to littlefinger there would likely be some similarity in appearance, and they wouldn't have wasted so much time teasing us about lyanna/rhaegar. That would be one of the most unexpected but also asinine twists in a show since Andrea got killed off in Walking Dead.


----------



## SD83

Drew said:


> Dammit, I AM.  Still, that's hardly the most important reason to discount the R+L=J thing. It just makes Littlefinger a smidge less likely.


I was just about to say according to book sources he might have been too young to do that, but apparently 15 year old Petyr Baelish had gotten Lysa Tully pregnant around that time, so after being sent back to the Fingers after his defeat by Brandon Stark, who knows what he did. He doesn't strike me as someone who might win the heart of the kind of woman Lyanna Stark is described as (or, in fact, any woman), but apparently he was still very close with Lysa even after her marriage, so while I do not (yet) doubt Jons parents, I now wonder if Robert/Robin Arryn is actually Littlefingers son.


----------



## Drew

I think we're getting side tracked here. 



Spoiler



I said for a while I _considered_ the possibility that Jon might be Littlefinger's son, and that it presents some interesting dramatic possibilities. I don't know if I think it's terribly likely, though, and the (more important) crux of the argument I'm making is this:

Given that R+L=J is an extremely popular fan theory, given that we're running out of episodes and plot time is valuable, and given GRRM's and the show's love of massively shocking plot twists, I think it's _extremely_ suspicious that we've been given fairly concrete evidence that Lyanna is Jon's mother, but instead only a whole slew of hints that Rhaegar is Jon's father. Considering we're down to one episode and then one more shortened season, and considering virtually everyone who watches the show is taking it for granted Rhaegar is Jon's father, why are they dragging it out rather than just confirming it and moving on? Why not have just had Lyanna tell Ned that Rhaegar was the father when Ned found her?

Leave Littlefinger out of it for now, though I think it's also very interesting that Littlefinger knows who Jon's parents are but Varys does not, even if I still don't know quite what to make of that.


----------



## bpprox22

Spoiler



The wait is probably so we can see the look on Jon's face when he realizes he did the dirty (presumably, it will happen) with his smokin' aunt


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bpprox22 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The wait is probably so we can see the look on Jon's face when he realizes he did the dirty (presumably, it will happen) with his smokin' aunt


nah he'll probably be like "doesn't matter- still smashed, would smash again"


----------



## Xaios

Spoiler



While that episode was awesome to watch (and had some really stellar special effects to boot), it's certainly problematic in retrospect. Others have already brought up a) the teleporting issue, and b) the Night King choosing to spear Viserion, a moving target that was farther away, instead of Drogon, a stationary and vulnerable target being ridden by the Dragon Queen.

Honestly though, there's something else: we know that the Night's King can apparently throw a spear like a God, so why wouldn't he just pick them off from afar? We know that he wasn't simply content to let them die of exposure given how the zombies closed in once they knew that the ice would support them.


----------



## wankerness

We can all stop spoilering the events of the episode once it's aired IMHO, anyone that's reading this thread that hasn't watched it that isn't expecting to get spoilered is a dope. It certainly would have been called for if you were talking about it after watching that leaked version ahead of time, though!!

Anyway, the Night King didn't pick them off from afar cause that wouldn't have been cool. This episode was all about COOL EVENTS over any form of logic whatsoever. It was a lot of bad writing. It was exciting to watch.

Besides everything with Sansa/Arya, of course. If this was a plot to kill Littlefinger somehow, that would probably redeem it.

Anyway, for some unoriginal content:

Art Deco • 3 days ago


Jon Snow, bailed out more times than the US auto industry:

1) Beyond The Wall by Qhorin Halfhand.
2) At The Wall by Stannis and his army
3) At Castle Black by Melisandre after being stabbed to death
4) At Winterfell by the Knights of the Vale
5) Beyond The Wall again by Dany & her dragons
6) Beyond The Wall yet again by Coldhands Benjen

Perhaps the worst military strategist depicted on TV.

Agog  ->Art Deco • 3 days ago


Ygritte really was right.


----------



## bostjan

Spoiler



I mean, not to mention that whilst the dragons were roasting the entire hoarde of footsoldiers, not a single White Walker was targetted. If Drogon would have simply faced the small group of White Walkers and went full flame on, the main antagonist of the series would have been wiped out permanently, and then we could watch Bron farming for the entire next season



I spoilerize in case someone who has not seen the latest episode wanders in here to say something.


----------



## bpprox22

Spoiler


----------



## Xaios

wankerness said:


> Jon Snow, bailed out more times than the US auto industry:
> 
> 1) Beyond The Wall by Qhorin Halfhand.
> 2) At The Wall by Stannis and his army
> 3) At Castle Black by Melisandre after being stabbed to death
> 4) At Winterfell by the Knights of the Vale
> 5) Beyond The Wall again by Dany & her dragons
> 6) Beyond The Wall yet again by Coldhands Benjen
> 
> Perhaps the worst military strategist depicted on TV.


As the old saying goes, it's better to be lucky than good.


----------



## SD83

wankerness said:


> Anyway, the Night King didn't pick them off from afar cause that wouldn't have been cool. This episode was all about COOL EVENTS over any form of logic whatsoever. It was a lot of bad writing. It was exciting to watch.


I agree to some extend. Drogon seemed the much better target, way closer, not moving, obviously more important to his enemies. The war would have basically been over there and then. But does he want that? Or did he just want them to leave and leave him alone? Right now I'm just assuming that the Night King and the White Walkers want to get to the other side of The Wall and wipe out all of mankind, but... do they? 
As for throwing the spear at those tiny humans before the dragons even arrive: Besides being much smaller targets that might or might not be able to dodge a spear at that distance if they see him throwing, I don't think he has that many of those spears at hand. Those ice weapons of them might be at least as rare as valyrian steel. If only four or so of those exist north of the wall, they'd better not waste a single one. 
But then again, you might be totally right and I might be reading way too much into these things


----------



## bostjan

Unfortunately, I've seen this with other television programmes as well - the further away from source material they go, the lazier the writing gets. Jon has the ultimate teleportation and Ex Machina tools at his whim. At some point this will get frustrating enough that I could stop watching, but we are still far from that point for how much time I have invested in this now.


----------



## wankerness

SD83 said:


> I don't think he has that many of those spears at hand. Those ice weapons of them might be at least as rare as valyrian steel. If only four or so of those exist north of the wall, they'd better not waste a single one.



Somehow I don't think ice is in short supply north of the wall


----------



## SD83

wankerness said:


> Somehow I don't think ice is in short supply north of the wall


 True, but average ice doesn't make for good weapons. I don't think they can just grab any piece of ice and it becomes a magical super weapon, shattering regular steel and such.


----------



## bostjan

So here's a question:



Spoiler



If fire kills wights, how can a wight dragon work? Does it breathe ice crystals or something?

If a wight dragon can breathe fire, then I guess it's fireproof. Since all other weapons that kill wights come from dragon's fire (Valerian steel and dragonglass), how would you take down a wight dragon other than killing the Night's King?


----------



## MFB

bostjan said:


> So here's a question:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If fire kills wights, how can a wight dragon work? Does it breathe ice crystals or something?
> 
> If a wight dragon can breathe fire, then I guess it's fireproof. Since all other weapons that kill wights come from dragon's fire (Valerian steel and dragonglass), how would you take down a wight dragon other than killing the Night's King?





Spoiler



I'm imagining it works like Superman's frost breath, where its so cold, whatever it makes contact with freezes. Ice wouldn't work as a breathable element, so that's feasibly the inverse of fire-breathing? I feel like for killing it though, it will now follow the same rule as other wights and it wont die until the Night King does.


----------



## vividox

Drew said:


> Dammit, I AM.  Still, that's hardly the most important reason to discount the R+L=J thing. It just makes Littlefinger a smidge less likely.


People are still trying to diffuse R+L=J? The show has confirmed it.

We also have no evidence that Littlefinger was in Lyanna's presence at any point - ever. He grew up in Riverrun with the Tully's until he challenged Brandon Stark for Catelyn. He then went back to the Vale. It wasn't until after Robert's Rebellion (i.e. after Lyanna's death) that he ingratiated himself into Jon Arryn's service (by manipulating Lysa Arryn, who always wanted Littlefinger), moved to King's Landing, became Master of Coin, and began playing the game of thrones. We know he wasn't at Harrenhal when Lyanna was kidnapped, and there is no reason to believe he would have run into her at any other time for any other reason. To top this all off, Petyr (born 268) was 13 years old when Lyanna was "abducted" (Tourney of Harrenhal was 281) - the rest of Lyanna's life was lived in Dorne. Littlefinger being Jon's dad is straight up not possible.


----------



## vividox

bostjan said:


> So here's a question:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If fire kills wights, how can a wight dragon work? Does it breathe ice crystals or something?
> 
> If a wight dragon can breathe fire, then I guess it's fireproof. Since all other weapons that kill wights come from dragon's fire (Valerian steel and dragonglass), how would you take down a wight dragon other than killing the Night's King?





Spoiler



I don't think the dragon is a wight. It was touched by the Night King himself, and reminded me a lot of him turning Craster's kids into actual White Walkers. I think it's a full-fledged dragon white walker. And I think it'd also be susceptible to dragonglass. 

That being said, I'd be shocked if the dragon doesn't breath ice.


----------



## MFB

vividox said:


> People are still trying to diffuse R+L=J? The show has confirmed it.



If you mean the Tower of Joy scene, that still doesn't confirm as we never went into the tower with the two and saw Jon being born. It's been implied, but not confirmed.


----------



## vividox

MFB said:


> If you mean the Tower of Joy scene, that still doesn't confirm as we never went into the tower with the two and saw Jon being born. It's been implied, but not confirmed.


I don't know how much more evidence you could ask for...

Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna.
Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret.
Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.
By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth.

Thinking that Lyanna isn't the mother - she just coincidentally had abdominal hemorrhaging and Kingsguard protecting her - is ridiculous.
Thinking that Rhaegar isn't the father - the Kingsguard just coincidentally decided to throw their lives away to protect the bastard child of Rhaegar's wife - is ridiculous.

The books are named _A Song of Ice and Fire_, for R'hllor's sake.

Saying we don't have proof here is kind of like saying I don't have proof that my parents are actually my parents because I don't remember being born.


----------



## bpprox22

vividox said:


> Saying we don't have proof here is kind of like saying I don't have proof that my parents are actually my parents because I don't remember being born.



What _is _your proof that your parents are _actually _your parents?


----------



## vividox

bpprox22 said:


> What _is _your proof that your parents are _actually _your parents?


You're only serving my point here.

If we start questioning that, we start questioning everything. How do we know Eddard Stark was real? How do we know Lady is really dead? How do we know Essos isn't a drug induced stupor that everyone slips off to when they get a few miles from Westeros where cognitive amalgamations result in the appearance of an organized society?

Some questions just aren't very meaningful.

R+L=J to any reasonable level of certainty.


----------



## bpprox22

vividox said:


> You're only serving my point here.
> 
> If we start questioning that, we start questioning everything. How do we know Eddard Stark was real? How do we know Lady is really dead? How do we know Essos isn't a drug induced stupor that everyone slips off to when they get a few miles from Westeros where cognitive amalgamations result in the appearance of an organized society?
> 
> Some questions just aren't very meaningful.
> 
> R+L=J to any reasonable level of certainty.



I am only playing devil's advocate here.

I agree that R + L = J (we don't really have any reason to think otherwise) although, @MFB is correct. It is only heavily implied but never confirmed. Many people are of the same opinion about who Jon's parents are, but having validation within the show itself is what people are looking for -- not strong implications. And I think that is why people like to discuss the possibilities major plot twists.

Again, I agree with you but I see why others are skeptical to jump to the conclusion.


----------



## vividox

bpprox22 said:


> I am only playing devil's advocate here.
> 
> I agree that R + L = J (we don't really have any reason to think otherwise) although, @MFB is correct. It is only heavily implied but never confirmed. Many people are of the same opinion about who Jon's parents are, but having validation within the show itself is what people are looking for -- not strong implications. And I think that is why people like to discuss the possibilities major plot twists.
> 
> Again, I agree with you but I see why others are skeptical to jump to the conclusion.


I guess the difference is, I don't feel like validation is required at this point. A good way to put it would be: if the series jumped straight to telling Jon (through Bran or something else) that he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I wouldn't feel like they missed a step.


----------



## Drew

vividox said:


> I don't know how much more evidence you could ask for...
> 
> Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna.
> Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret.
> Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.
> By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth.
> 
> Thinking that Lyanna isn't the mother - she just coincidentally had abdominal hemorrhaging and Kingsguard protecting her - is ridiculous.
> Thinking that Rhaegar isn't the father - the Kingsguard just coincidentally decided to throw their lives away to protect the bastard child of Rhaegar's wife - is ridiculous.
> 
> The books are named _A Song of Ice and Fire_, for R'hllor's sake.
> 
> Saying we don't have proof here is kind of like saying I don't have proof that my parents are actually my parents because I don't remember being born.



*Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna. *Generally accepted knowledge within the Seven Kingdoms. True enough, as far as I'm concerned.
*Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret. *The first part, yes, true.. The _second _part, though? All we know was he annulled his marriage, and then remarried. We don't know to whom, or when, this happened, just that it happened in Dorne (where the Tower of Joy was, but also, incidently, his publicly-known wife's homeland). Furthermore, after the "abduction," he returned to Elia Martell, lived with her for about a year, and fathered another child before dying in Robert's Rebellion. That's hardly the action of a man who had just annulled his marriage.
*Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. *True, confirmed on the show. This proves that Rhaegar or one of the two Kingsguard had a reason to protect or guard Lyanna or the unborn child, and this is probably the strongest argument for Rhaegar being the father, but it doesn't actually _prove_ anything.
*By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth.* True, or extremely likely true - it's GoT, so never assume anyone's dead until you see it on screen, but last we saw her she'd just given birth and was in rough shape. However, this doesn't confirm anything about Jon's _father. 
_
Listen, as far as we the viewers know, Rhaegar was married to someone else before Elia, and married her secretly in Dorne before their public ceremony. There were two _clear_ opportunities for the show to confirm Rhaegar is Jon's father - first, when Lyanna was in bed, handing Ned the baby - it would be a simple matter for her to whisper "He is Rhaegar's son" or something like that. Second, when Gilly finds that reference to the annullment, she only reads (and misprounounces) Rhaegar's name, it would have been a simple matter to have had her continue "Rhaegar annulled his marraige, and remarried to someone named Lyanna...?" Sam likely wouldn't have known/recognized the name so it wouldn't have impacted the plot at all, but we would have. And, in both cases, they didn't.

I mean, given the last couple episodes, extremely sloppy writing IS a real possibility.  But the show has been very careful to not actually _explicitly_ confirm Jon's parentage. For a show known for shocking its fans, that's something worth watching.

Really, it's your second point where the whole thing falls apart. I'm pretty comfortable with the conclusion that Jon is Lyanna's son, barring some extremely wild plot twists (never say never, just say probably not). I don't think we've seen enough evidence to reasonably conclude Rhaegar was the father, however, yet virtually every single person watching the show is taking that as a matter of gospel. It _could_ be true... but, if you were going to try to troll the fan base, that's one hell of a trap to lay for them, letting them believe a popular fan theory has been confirmed, only to upend it.


----------



## bostjan

I think it's more believable to expect the writers to troll us than not, especially with anything to do with Jon Snow.

I think the writers would be brilliant for taking the L+R=J fan theory and then to sporadically confirm L+?=?, L+?=J, and ?+R=?, and maybe eventually L+R=?, then have some huge twist where actually L+_X_=J and L+R=_Y.
_


Spoiler



As far as a dragon wight, I think that's precisely what the dragon is now. A resurrected bear becomes a wight bear, a resurrected horse becomes a wight horse, and a resurrected man becomes a wight man. A resurrected dragon should be a wight dragon, then...using children to make new White Walkers seems like maybe a different kind of magic that requires a child, specifically, maybe even a specific sort of child, since Craster only gave up certain children.


----------



## Drew

bostjan said:


> I think it's more believable to expect the writers to troll us than not, especially with anything to do with Jon Snow.
> 
> I think the writers would be brilliant for taking the L+R=J fan theory and then to sporadically confirm L+?=?, L+?=J, and ?+R=?, and maybe eventually L+R=?, then have some huge twist where actually L+_X_=J and L+R=_Y.
> _
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> As far as a dragon wight, I think that's precisely what the dragon is now. A resurrected bear becomes a wight bear, a resurrected horse becomes a wight horse, and a resurrected man becomes a wight man. A resurrected dragon should be a wight dragon, then...using children to make new White Walkers seems like maybe a different kind of magic that requires a child, specifically, maybe even a specific sort of child, since Craster only gave up certain children.



Figure I should spoiler this.



Spoiler



I have a buddy with insane retention to detail for random stuff in fantasy novels, who's also a VERY bright guy. I sent him a message on this one after the anullment thing and we've been talking about it for a while now - his personal theory is R+L=D (B+A=J), as he and another of other proponents abbreviate this (this is evidently sort of a matter of religious faith in certain online circles). I'm not even going to pretend that I understand it all and I still have a lot of reading/viewing to do (he sent me some stuff on youtube to watch that explains it in depth) but the gist is Rhaegar and Lyanna DO have a child, but it's Dany, not Jon, and part of the process of keeping Dany safe was swapping babies at Starfell, on the way bck from the Tower of Joy, and taking Jon, a child of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark, in her place, so in case anyone ever figured out Ned had taken Lyanna's child from the Tower of Joy, they would be after the wrong child. Further, that Ashara's daughter wasn't still born after all, and that a third couple was involved (I think there's a couple theorized here but I can't recall) A lot of this makes NO sense (given the Rebellion was being won, Dany wouldn't exactly have been any safer, though the idea of hiding Rhaegar's secret child as his sister is, well, very GRRM) and frankly I don't have enough of a handle on the moving parts, but it certainly explains some odd things - the Dayne's seeming to feel they owe a debt to the Starks even though Ned (allegedly) killed Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy, the fact Dany remembers lemon trees (common in Dorne, not in Braavos), the fact Ned refuses to talk about Ashara whenever Caitlyn mentioned her... Idunno. I don't know if I'm convinced since the Dany side seems to have too many loose ends, but there IS some weird stuff in the way the Daynes and Starks interact.

Also - before the start of the season, I saw a season "poster" graphic with the HBO logo of the Night King riding a blue/grey dragon, breathing blue fire, shared by a semi-official GoT Facebook page. At the time I wrote it off as very professional looking fan art, but now I'm not so convinced.

Poster:


What I really want to know is what the swirling black shit is - maybe related to the magic protecting the wall breaking? I thought ravens at first, but it doesn't look right.


----------



## vividox

Drew said:


> *Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna. *Generally accepted knowledge within the Seven Kingdoms. True enough, as far as I'm concerned.
> *Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret. *The first part, yes, true.. The _second _part, though? All we know was he annulled his marriage, and then remarried. We don't know to whom, or when, this happened, just that it happened in Dorne (where the Tower of Joy was, but also, incidently, his publicly-known wife's homeland). Furthermore, after the "abduction," he returned to Elia Martell, lived with her for about a year, and fathered another child before dying in Robert's Rebellion. That's hardly the action of a man who had just annulled his marriage.
> *Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. *True, confirmed on the show. This proves that Rhaegar or one of the two Kingsguard had a reason to protect or guard Lyanna or the unborn child, and this is probably the strongest argument for Rhaegar being the father, but it doesn't actually _prove_ anything.
> *By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth.* True, or extremely likely true - it's GoT, so never assume anyone's dead until you see it on screen, but last we saw her she'd just given birth and was in rough shape. However, this doesn't confirm anything about Jon's _father.
> _
> Listen, as far as we the viewers know, Rhaegar was married to someone else before Elia, and married her secretly in Dorne before their public ceremony. There were two _clear_ opportunities for the show to confirm Rhaegar is Jon's father - first, when Lyanna was in bed, handing Ned the baby - it would be a simple matter for her to whisper "He is Rhaegar's son" or something like that. Second, when Gilly finds that reference to the annullment, she only reads (and misprounounces) Rhaegar's name, it would have been a simple matter to have had her continue "Rhaegar annulled his marraige, and remarried to someone named Lyanna...?" Sam likely wouldn't have known/recognized the name so it wouldn't have impacted the plot at all, but we would have. And, in both cases, they didn't.
> 
> I mean, given the last couple episodes, extremely sloppy writing IS a real possibility.  But the show has been very careful to not actually _explicitly_ confirm Jon's parentage. For a show known for shocking its fans, that's something worth watching.
> 
> Really, it's your second point where the whole thing falls apart. I'm pretty comfortable with the conclusion that Jon is Lyanna's son, barring some extremely wild plot twists (never say never, just say probably not). I don't think we've seen enough evidence to reasonably conclude Rhaegar was the father, however, yet virtually every single person watching the show is taking that as a matter of gospel. It _could_ be true... but, if you were going to try to troll the fan base, that's one hell of a trap to lay for them, letting them believe a popular fan theory has been confirmed, only to upend it.


Fair enough. I can't say the show has been transparent with Rhaegar's involvement.


I do know, however, that after spending so many words on this topic today the series is like to wrap this up in the first five minutes on Sunday.


----------



## Drew

vividox said:


> Fair enough. I can't say the show has been transparent with Rhaegar's involvement.
> 
> 
> I do know, however, that after spending so many words on this topic today the series is like to wrap this up in the first five minutes on Sunday.


Isn't it called something like The Wolf and the Dragon? I figure we'll get an answer.  Truth be told, that's half of why I want to discuss this now, because I kind of AM expecting a surprise. 

Think about it, though - if/when the show finally confirms Rhaegar is Jon's father, who if anyone is going to be surprised by that? It'll make the scene a waste of time, unless we learn something _else_ then.


----------



## Steinmetzify

It's about damn time. Couldn't stand that bastard.


----------



## Steinmetzify

Finished it. 

Daaaaaaaamn.


----------



## wankerness

It was kind of nice having an episode with no surprises at all. I thought Jamie was going to get it, but nope. It had good character development and about the first great actor scene in SEASONS with Tyrion and Cersei. My favorite part of the episode, though, was Brienne and The Hound reconciling almost immediately! I was expecting them to want to kill each other or something dumb, but nope, they immediately explained their motivations in that fight and understood. Good for the writers!

Worst part of the episode was Jon Snow banging his aunt. God, those two are terrible actors together.


----------



## Steinmetzify

View media item 288


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Spoiler



thank god littlefinger got killed off. Nice and poetic how Arya used his own dagger against him, the one that literally started all of their problems. It's a great example of chekov's gun. I was honestly expecting cersei to murder tyrion and jaime. I'm not surprised that cersei is still plotting/being her normal cunty self. Cool to see the show straight up undeniably confirm that Jon is actually a targaryen, though having him bang his aunt is a bit weird, though fitting with the overall history of the targaryens and how they "keep it in the family". I wonder if Tormund survived the destruction of Eastwatch. Probably not.


----------



## SD83

Great episode, no major suprises. Liked the Cersei/Euron part, Sansa/Arya, even Theon a little bit. The last minutes back at the wall though were so bad they almost ruined the entire episode.


----------



## MFB

KnightBrolaire said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> thank god littlefinger got killed off. Nice and poetic how Arya used his own dagger against him, the one that literally started all of their problems. It's a great example of chekov's gun. I was honestly expecting cersei to murder tyrion and jaime. I'm not surprised that cersei is still plotting/being her normal cunty self. Cool to see the show straight up undeniably confirm that Jon is actually a targaryen, though having him bang his aunt is a bit weird, though fitting with the overall history of the targaryens and how they "keep it in the family". I wonder if Tormund survived the destruction of Eastwatch. Probably not.





Spoiler



Him and Baeric survived the wall falling, they made it just to the edge of where it wasn't crumbling off


----------



## bostjan

Spoiler



If Tormund survived, he'd be stuck on top of the wall. Knowing that he has been able before to climb the wall means he might be able to survive, but I also wonder how he'd deal with having the Army of the Dead between him and the rest of the living.


----------



## bostjan

My biggest question:


Spoiler



To whom was the Hound referring, when he was teasing the Mountain? Who would be intimidating to the Mountain?!



Some great acting from Peter Dinklage and Lena Headley.


----------



## narad

^^ The Hound


----------



## wankerness

Yeah...what the heck was your reading bostjan? At no point did I think that was meant to sound like anything other than a threat from him to the mountain.


----------



## bostjan

> Remember me? Yeah you do. You’re even fucking uglier than I am now. What’d they do to you? Doesn’t matter. It’s not how it ends for you brother. You know who’s coming for you. You’ve always known.



Ok, I thought he had said something about "you know _he's_ coming for you," but I misheard it the first time through.


----------



## RustInPeace

Spoiler


----------



## lewis

Spoiler



Tbh the Incest thing between Dany and Jon is not really that big a deal WITHIN THE SHOW, and actually vitally important. She is the only one bar jon left that has that blood/ability to speak to dragons. Now with Jon they can have less creepy (but still creepy) children ala Cersei and keep that dragon bloodline going. I really hope the revelation does not tear them apart now. We have waited for years for this relationship and now we have it im glad. They are well suited, they are both bad ass and would be an amazing King/Queen combo


----------



## bostjan

Spoiler



Does this mean Jon will ride a dragon?
Is Jon going to stop being Jon and start going by Aegon?
If Jon makes a claim for the throne at some point, Sansa would move to be leader of House Stark, as Lady Paramount of the North, but since Bran showed up, and the North is a place of male primogeniture, would there be a problem? Bran doesn't seem interested in ruling...
Extra-Spoiler-y Question:


Spoiler



If Jon is Azor Ahai, and the legend/prophesy is that he will forge the weapon to defeat the Night's King and temper it in the heart of his true love, I think this has to lead to some serious drama between the Night's King and Jon and Danerys before some even more serious drama. I don't know how it's all going to work out, but there is no chance for a happy ending in all of this. I had guessed that Jon was going to give Longclaw back to the Mormonts, but Jorah refused. Still, Jon needs a weapon that can defeat the Night's King, which he currently does not have.





I guess we will have to wait ~2 years to find out. Probably by then, people will be divided into two groups, those who lost interest and those who are freaking out.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bostjan said:


> My biggest question:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> To whom was the Hound referring, when he was teasing the Mountain? Who would be intimidating to the Mountain?!
> 
> 
> 
> Some great acting from Peter Dinklage and Lena Headley.


yeah, he's had a hard on for killing the mountain ever since gregor shoved his face into the fire. #CLEGANEBOWL2018


----------



## bostjan

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah, he's had a hard on for killing the mountain ever since gregor shoved his face into the fire. #CLEGANEBOWL2018


Is GoT going to even be back in 2018?


----------



## mongey

got to admit as a big fan of this whole series, I was a bit underwhelmed. maybe I expected more movement towards the war .maybe I expected too much 

have to watch it again


----------



## RustInPeace

Spoiler



I think next season we will have:

1. Jon fulfill the prophecy of Azor Ahai. He will need to create a weapon to defeat the NK, which will be done by sacrificing Danerys. 
2. Bran trying to stop the NK by warging into the past the same way he did to Hodor, only to become the NK (popular theory)
3. CLEAGANEBOWL
4. Jamie slays Cersei as her actions become more and more selfish and reckless
5. Less boobs, more gore


----------



## bostjan

RustInPeace said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I think next season we will have:
> 
> 1. Jon fulfill the prophecy of Azor Ahai. He will need to create a weapon to defeat the NK, which will be done by sacrificing Danerys.
> 2. Bran trying to stop the NK by warging into the past the same way he did to Hodor, only to become the NK (popular theory)
> 3. CLEAGANEBOWL
> 4. Jamie slays Cersei as her actions become more and more selfish and reckless
> 5. Less boobs, more gore





Spoiler



1. Agreed.
2. Don't think so. Bran will be a key player, though.
3. YES!
4. Probably, unless if Cersei has Jamie killed first.
5. Sums up the entire progression of the series so far.


----------



## Drew

bostjan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean Jon will ride a dragon?
> Is Jon going to stop being Jon and start going by Aegon?
> If Jon makes a claim for the throne at some point, Sansa would move to be leader of House Stark, as Lady Paramount of the North, but since Bran showed up, and the North is a place of male primogeniture, would there be a problem? Bran doesn't seem interested in ruling...
> Extra-Spoiler-y Question:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If Jon is Azor Ahai, and the legend/prophesy is that he will forge the weapon to defeat the Night's King and temper it in the heart of his true love, I think this has to lead to some serious drama between the Night's King and Jon and Danerys before some even more serious drama. I don't know how it's all going to work out, but there is no chance for a happy ending in all of this. I had guessed that Jon was going to give Longclaw back to the Mormonts, but Jorah refused. Still, Jon needs a weapon that can defeat the Night's King, which he currently does not have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we will have to wait ~2 years to find out. Probably by then, people will be divided into two groups, those who lost interest and those who are freaking out.



Bunch to unpack here. 

bostjan, to your spoiler-within-spoiler: 


Spoiler



Technically, he does. He has a valeryian steel blade, as well as a mountain of dragonglass. The problem is GETTING to the Knight's King, if he's on dragon back, which requires either a dragon (vulnerable to ice javelin attack), or somehow getting him OFF the dragon



Meanwhile, to my Jon theory:


Spoiler



On one hand, I have to eat crow here for a bit, since the show FINALLY explicitly confirmed that Bran, at least, believes Jon is a Targaryen. I'll say two things in my defense:

1) the producers at least agknowledged their narrative problem in the HBO behind the scenes thing that airs after the episode on HBO Now: "How do we make a reveal interesting when it's something most of our viewers already know?" They eventually opted to make it interesting with cut scenes. I would have opted to not do such a shitty job writing it in the first place.  

1) a) Bran is almost spectacularly bad at being the Three Eyed Raven.  Bran: "Jon's real name is Aegon Sand" Sam: "Actually, Rhaegar annulled his marriage and remarried Lyanna, I read it in a scroll I copied." Bran: "Why, so he did." 

2) The fact that Jon's name is Aegon Targaryen poses some questions of its own. Rhaegar already _had_ a son named Aegon, Dany's younger brother, who was killed at the foot of the Iron Throne in the sacking of King's Landing. Rhaegar naming Lyanna the queen of whatever at the joust, going home and knocking up Elia who then gave birth to Aegon V, then a year later "kidnapping" Lyanna, knocking her up with Aegon VI, then leaving two Kingsguard and going back to his no-longer-wife Elia, and spending a year with _her_ without telling her he'd annulled the marraige, before eventually dying in Robert's Rebellion would make him a grade-A douchebag. 

Warning: book spoilers


Spoiler



Except, in the books, Aegon _isn't_ dead. Jorah finds him overseas, as a surprisingly educated youth named "young Griff," traveling with an older adventurer clearly from westeros named Griff, and dying his hair blue in memory of his deceased mother, with bluish-purplish eyes. Jorah travels with him, gets suspicious, and sure enough Griff is Jon Cunningham, close friend of Rhaegar's who's living in exile, and the youth is Aegon, whom Varys swapped for a common born baby shortly before the sack of King's Landing and smuggled overseas to keep alive - the baby at the foot of the iron throne was so mutilated that it was unrecognizable, and the Mountain wasn't exactly an intellectual heavyweight. Where the books leave off, Aegon has stopped dying his hair which has returned to a Targaryen silver, and has returned to Westeros at the head of the Golden Company - yes, the same sellswords that have mostly been off screen that Cersei's big plan at the end of season 7 is to hire - and has retaken Storm's Landing. 

At this point, I'm more inclined to attribute this to sloppy writing - combining Jon and Aegon from the books, reusing a band of mercenaries they didn't need rather than inventing a new one, etc - than any GRRM-written master plan to surprise his audience - and that the ending of the books, if we ever get that far, is just going to be radically different from that in the show. But, it's kind of messy.






Other than that... 


Spoiler



The Sansa/Arya thing was cheating. It only works because they reconcile/get secret info from Bran offscreen after fighting onscreen (the actor who plays Bran even confirmed they shot a scene that was intended to go after Litttlefinger's "whenever I try to figure out someone's motivations, I start by assuming the worst and seeing how well that explaisn their actions" speech, where Sansa knocks on his door and tells him she needs advice) and only manages to be a surprise because the writers intentionally kept the viewers in the dark about Sansa and Arya learning that Littlefinger had asked Lysa to poison her husband, starting the events of the story, and then pushed her out the Moon Door. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching Littlefinger die as much as the next guy, but from a writing standpoint, they didn't earn that one.



tl;dr - this show has probably jumped the shark. GRRM may die before he ever finishes the series so we may never know how it's supposed to end, so for now I'm just settling for an enjoyable TV viewing experience, without the same level of intellectual engagement of the books or even the show pre-running-out-of-source-material (like, remember when Jon's parentage was a mystery, but there were enough hints in the books to work out some plausible theories? Those days are LONG gone. )


----------



## Anquished

Spoiler



I'd find it hilarious if Bran is able to warg into the Night King's dragon.


----------



## wankerness

I can't wait until the day when I don't have to click multiple times to read every post!!!

Though, we'll probably have about a year and a half soon where no one posts. Damn special effects making the ending take forever. I didn't like World War Z AT ALL, but maybe they should take a cue from that film and just stop having any special effects or action sequences for their whole climax so we can get it sooner  They can dispatch the Night King in one episode, and then the last six episodes can just be people trying to hash everything out at a meeting like this last episode!


----------



## Becnel

I'm going to use this time to rewatch the entire show again!


----------



## Fraz666

*"Every detail you might have missed in the new ‘Game of Thrones’ season 8 trailer"*
https://thecrazywatchers.com/every-...0j0DZp6oZgFXd6auIsoiZzpWb9GjCj-lI_XXL3gt5wCf0


----------



## wankerness

The main things interesting there from a plot standpoint are seeing that Tormund is alive (HOORAY) and seeing Jamie fighting with the NOT-Cersei people. Everyone's trying to figure out who the dudes on the boat are (Golden Company? Faceless Men?) but that's obviously kept unknowable. I just plain can't remember where some characters were left last season, like The Hound, but good to see him anyway.

Grey Worm is dead if they did a dramatic closeup of him kissing Missandei!!


----------



## Seabeast2000

wankerness said:


> I can't wait until the day when I don't have to click multiple times to read every post!!!
> 
> Though, we'll probably have about a year and a half soon where no one posts. Damn special effects making the ending take forever. I didn't like World War Z AT ALL, but maybe they should take a cue from that film and just stop having any special effects or action sequences for their whole climax so we can get it sooner  They can dispatch the Night King in one episode, and then the last six episodes can just be people trying to hash everything out at a meeting like this last episode!



Pretty good prediction, 18 months or so.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> The main things interesting there from a plot standpoint are seeing that Tormund is alive (HOORAY) and seeing Jamie fighting with the NOT-Cersei people. Everyone's trying to figure out who the dudes on the boat are (Golden Company? Faceless Men?) but that's obviously kept unknowable. I just plain can't remember where some characters were left last season, like The Hound, but good to see him anyway.
> 
> Grey Worm is dead if they did a dramatic closeup of him kissing Missandei!!



Guarantee it's the Golden Company on their way over from Essos, and the theory is that the man leading them is Harry Strickland


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I cracked over Christmas and watched the last two seasons, figured this might be the only ending we are going to get to this story. 

Looking forward to how they are going to wrap up everything. There are a lot of characters and plots still to tie up. The golden company arriving so late in the story is an odd choice when they are speeding towards the end.


----------



## wankerness

Lorcan Ward said:


> Looking forward to how they are going to wrap up everything. There are a lot of characters and plots still to tie up. The golden company arriving so late in the story is an odd choice when they are speeding towards the end.



It's easy to tie up characters and plots when the show has a precedent of unceremoniously bumping off characters with no regards for their plots being finished, just look at the big Cersei bombing. Now that they've upped the stakes much further, I could easily see them knocking off huge swathes of characters per episode. I won't be surprised if the Golden Company gets Dick Hallorann'd.


----------



## Drew

I reread the books in preparation of the final series of the show, and realized by the end since the books and the show basically go in two radically different directions by the time we get to the end of Season 7. 

Random book differences:


Spoiler



Right off the bat, Aegon being alive.
Jorah getting run off, presumably for good, for lying to Dany about having spied on her for Varys at the end, though he heads back to her after capturing Tyrion as a peace offering. Seeing as she's still off in the Dothraki Sea alone when the book ends, no clue if Tyrion ever even makes it to her, though both Jorah and Tyrion are sold into slavery and Tyrion performs with the pig jouster for Dany, and Dany unknowingly saves his life when her husband mentions they've got a surprise planned when they're going to release hungry lions mid performance and she tells him not to.
Relatedly, Jorah NOT getting greyscale, and Jon Cunningham being the one with Greyscale, helping Aegon reclaim Westeros.
Lady Stoneheart being totally ommitted.
Breanne having half her face eaten off by the Biter, before getting captured, and nearly/partially hung by Lady Stoneheart
Sansa NOT getting married to Ramsay Bolton, but rather one of her maids, pretending to be Arya, being married to Ramsay
Not a major plot point, but Ramsay then-Snow being believed killed at the start, Theon finding "Reek" in the dungeons of Winterfell, and when he offers to go get help when Winterfell is beseiged by Stark bannermen, running off and coming back, showered and cleaned, at the head of a Bolton army, much to Theon's surprise, before Bolton knocks Theon out and takes over the show.
Wex, Theon's mute squire, being there to see it, and learning his letters, allowing Davos and various former Stark bannerman in Whitehaven to learn that much of what they "know" about the battle - the two Starks being killed, Theon putting the castle to the torch and slaughtering the people, is wrong, with potential major plot implications later on.
No "Night's King," just White Walkers. Probably not important to the plot, over and beyond the fact it gives you a single antagonist vs. a small number of bad guys.



Oh, there's probably tons more I'm forgetting here, but those are a number of reasons I'll be thoroughly confused now, when Season 8 starts back up. 

EDIT - also, I'm glad this got bumped to reread this - I stand by my original assessment, that the show is kinda jumping the shark, and that the two big reveals I referred to at the end of last season are cheating.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^The show took a huge turn away from the source material thats its almost a completely different story for some characters. 



wankerness said:


> It's easy to tie up characters and plots when the show has a precedent of unceremoniously bumping off characters with no regards for their plots being finished, just look at the big Cersei bombing. Now that they've upped the stakes much further, I could easily see them knocking off huge swathes of characters per episode. I won't be surprised if the Golden Company gets Dick Hallorann'd.



Oh no doubt but it still has to have a definitive ending that should mostly mirror George's planned ending.


----------



## wankerness

For all we know George's planned ending is as dramatically satisfying as the Sopranos finale or the end to Monty Python and the Holy Grail!


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> For all we know George's planned ending is as dramatically satisfying as the Sopranos finale or the end to Monty Python and the Holy Grail!


 

though, I have a feeling that however it ends in the show is NOT going to be the ending he eventually writes into the books. Too many differences.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Drew said:


> I have a feeling that however it ends in the show is NOT going to be the ending he eventually writes into the books. Too many differences.


This depends. Ol' George might die before he even finishes the _A Song of Ice And Fire _series with how slowly he is writing and how he is instead choosing to focus on other books, editing, projects, etc.

Even though George had to give HBO the major plot points and details, I think he is going to use the TV audience response to _Game of Thrones _as a means to gauge his initially planned ending for everyone and everything in the books. Then, based on TV audience response, he is going to rewrite and adjust the planned ending to his book series. Maybe even write a whole new ending?

At this point, the ending to the TV series and the ending to the _A Song of Ice And Fire_ book series cannot be the same. The TV series took a massive turn away from the source material fairly early on. Character arcs are vastly different. Events have been changed or erased entirely. The timeline has been shifted around or flat-out ignored. So yeah, at this point, I think it's safe to say that the ending to the TV series will not be the same as the ending to the book series.

If anyone here has really read the _A Song of Ice And Fire_ series, and I mean *REALLY* read it in detail, it pretty much surmounts to: "war is hell". Characters die all the time for no reason at all, or even for stupid reasons. Some characters receive unexplained deaths from unexplained sources. Some just outright vanish. (Not sure if intentionally or due to George's writing and author error.) In this game, no one is safe, not even the most stereotypical literary hero, as shown to us by the character of Ned Stark and his fate early on in the series. Everyone dies. Everyone can die. And for all we know, the series could just end with everyone dying. That's the reality of war. And ol' George claims to have drawn on his experiences in war a lot while writing the series.


----------



## MFB

Started rewatching S1 over the past few days, boy is it slow as shit to start  It's making me rethink my plan of watching the entire series before the final one premiers on April 18th


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This depends. Ol' George might die before he even finishes the _A Song of Ice And Fire _series with how slowly he is writing and how he is instead choosing to focus on other books, editing, projects, etc.



He completely squandered the 8-10 years he had to get the books wrapped up before the final season of the show. The last book was mostly done 14 years ago so its a fair assumption that we won't get to read his ending. I hope we at least get the next book since the sample chapters he's released are really good. 

Episode lengths are up.


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This depends. Ol' George might die before he even finishes the _A Song of Ice And Fire _series with how slowly he is writing and how he is instead choosing to focus on other books, editing, projects, etc.


Did you ever see the blog, "Finish the fucking book, George"? It was awesome for a while, basically a guy ranting about all the other things GRRM was doing other than writing ASOIAF - blogging about football and how much he hates the Pats, for one. But, then, as you might expect, the blog kinda started to fall off a bit. As you might imagine, it's kind of tough to keep it running when you've got absolutely no source material to work with. 

The best I can realistically hope for is GRRM's estate pulls a Robert Johnson, and hires another competent writer who's a fan of the series to finish it for him. Brandon Sanderson's three books in WoT definitely had a different feel to them, and I liked Jordan's Mat more than Sanderson's... But Sanderson's Perrin was an improvement, and he fucking killed it on bringing the story to Johnson's intended close. I don't know how much of it was completed, drawn from Jordan's notes, or Sanderson's own work, but he did a great job with that series, and I'd love to see someone do the same to ASOIAF when GRRM eventually does die, leaving the books unfinished.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This depends. Ol' George might die before he even finishes the _A Song of Ice And Fire _series with how slowly he is writing and how he is instead choosing to focus on other books, editing, projects, etc.
> 
> Even though George had to give HBO the major plot points and details, I think he is going to use the TV audience response to _Game of Thrones _as a means to gauge his initially planned ending for everyone and everything in the books. Then, based on TV audience response, he is going to rewrite and adjust the planned ending to his book series. Maybe even write a whole new ending?
> 
> At this point, the ending to the TV series and the ending to the _A Song of Ice And Fire_ book series cannot be the same. The TV series took a massive turn away from the source material fairly early on. Character arcs are vastly different. Events have been changed or erased entirely. The timeline has been shifted around or flat-out ignored. So yeah, at this point, I think it's safe to say that the ending to the TV series will not be the same as the ending to the book series.
> 
> If anyone here has really read the _A Song of Ice And Fire_ series, and I mean *REALLY* read it in detail, it pretty much surmounts to: "war is hell". Characters die all the time for no reason at all, or even for stupid reasons. Some characters receive unexplained deaths from unexplained sources. Some just outright vanish. (Not sure if intentionally or due to George's writing and author error.) In this game, no one is safe, not even the most stereotypical literary hero, as shown to us by the character of Ned Stark and his fate early on in the series. Everyone dies. Everyone can die. And for all we know, the series could just end with everyone dying. That's the reality of war. And ol' George claims to have drawn on his experiences in war a lot while writing the series.


george was never in the military or in a war. he was a conscientous objector during nam.


----------



## Drew

KnightBrolaire said:


> george was never in the military or in a war. he was a conscientous objector during nam.


Gives credence to the theory that the whole story is one Sam is writing down in the Citadel, no?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Drew said:


> Gives credence to the theory that the whole story is one Sam is writing down in the Citadel, no?


Can't say I've heard that particular theory before. I'm just repeating what George has written in his bio section on his website and on wikipedia.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Started rewatching S1 over the past few days, boy is it slow as shit to start  It's making me rethink my plan of watching the entire series before the final one premiers on April 18th



I rewatched the series before last season. It's shocking how good the writing/acting is in season 1 compared to...everything after. The real decline starts at the end of season 3 and steadily goes down every year. I still like the show, it's just so much more sloppily written from its original days. In terms of dialogue, events, etc.


----------



## Drew

KnightBrolaire said:


> Can't say I've heard that particular theory before. I'm just repeating what George has written in his bio section on his website and on wikipedia.


I mean, as far as fan theories go, it's not a super important one, save that if you're taking part in a death pool if it's true Sam is a name you'd want to avoid.  But the gist is Sam, who's fascinated by books and the stories they contain, and who Jon has teased maybe one day he too will write an important book that scholars will study hundreds of years from now, is actually the author of ASOIAF and the story is his history of the events, as many years after the evens of the story he's setting them down in the Citadel.

As evidence, aside from the fact that it's actually fairly plausible, one thing that's often pointed out is the globes in the opening credit bear an eerie resemblance to the candelabras in the main hall of the citadel:





I'm not bothering to spoiler this because, again, it doesn't really change anything about the story.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Drew said:


> Did you ever see the blog, "Finish the fucking book, George"? It was awesome for a while, basically a guy ranting about all the other things GRRM was doing other than writing ASOIAF - blogging about football and how much he hates the Pats, for one. But, then, as you might expect, the blog kinda started to fall off a bit. As you might imagine, it's kind of tough to keep it running when you've got absolutely no source material to work with.


Never heard about that. Honestly, I didn't get into _GOT_ and _ASOIAF _until fairly recently (due to a specific person in my life), and I had no choice but to get into it hard.



Drew said:


> Gives credence to the theory that the whole story is one Sam is writing down in the Citadel, no?


That's a good one.


----------



## wankerness

I'm rewatching season 8, this time on blu-ray instead of the HBO streaming, in preparation for the new season. The quality is a lot higher than I remember, especially relative to the previous few seasons. There are better and longer dialogue scenes. The fourth episode's big battle hyped me up almost as much as it did the first time, even knowing who came out alive at the end. It's brilliantly made. 

There's still some garbage, like the massively overlong scene with grey worm and missandae, every time Euron's on the screen, or pretty much anything featuring Brann, but yeah. I'm more hyped for the last season. On to the last few episodes!

Cersei's haircut really bugs me.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

^So not only have you seen season 8 ahead of everyone else, you also have it on Blu-ray? Show me the ways...


----------



## wankerness

PunkBillCarson said:


> ^So not only have you seen season 8 ahead of everyone else, you also have it on Blu-ray? Show me the ways...



That's what happens when I type numbers without using the number pad. 

Speaking of the last few episodes, that one where they go to recover the wight is _so bad. _I'm not too keen on the season finale, either. The first part of the season is great, though.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> Speaking of the last few episodes, that one where they go to recover the wight is _so bad. _I'm not too keen on the season finale, either. The first part of the season is great, though.


I do remember thinking that was a fairly improbable storyline - there were really a few points in the 7th season where, well, the production values were excellent, the dialogue was excellent, the acting was excellent, the effects were excellent... but the actually plot just felt like cheating. I've bitched previously about the whole Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger thing only working as a big reveal because the show keeps things hidden from the viewer to imply that something that isn't happening might be happening and the reveal is totally anticlimatic if you know what the characters know, and that Bran's omniscience is seriously shaky, considering Sam has to fill him in on certain details about Jon that somehow he's seen all this _other_ stuff, but missed this one point that, lo and behold, really matters.

It's like, the call-it-day-to-day writing, how characters interact with each other and whatnot, is great... But some of the overall structural stuff got pretty shaky in Season 7. Going beyond the wall to retrieve a wight to show it to Cersai to get her to agree to a truce is way up there, considering a self-interested Cersai should be all _about_ her enemies turning to stop fighting her and go battle some unknown threat up beyond the wall, and shouldn't need much convincing to let them go get killed fighting something else so she doesn't have to have her own army do it. Which is a pity, because if you ignore the fact there's no reasonable reason for that band to go beyond the wall, it makes for some pretty awesome viewing.


----------



## Xaios

Drew said:


> The best I can realistically hope for is GRRM's estate pulls a Robert Johnson


I too was disappointed when Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads to become a blues legend instead of finishing the Wheel of Time series.


----------



## Drew

Xaios said:


> I too was disappointed when Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads to become a blues legend instead of finishing the Wheel of Time series.


Oops.  

FWIW I thought Sanderson did a reasonably good job finishing that series.


----------



## Xaios

I've had "The Way of Kings" sitting on my shelf for years now, I should probably read it. First though, I also have to read The Color of Magic and The Black Company.

It is truly difficult to find time to do all this shit nowadays.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Xaios said:


> I've had "The Way of Kings" sitting on my shelf for years now, I should probably read it. First though, I also have to read The Color of Magic and The Black Company.
> 
> It is truly difficult to find time to do all this shit nowadays.




Sanderson is a fantastic writer in terms of world-building and character development. I will always rep him if he comes up.


----------



## chopeth

Agreed, I much prefer him to Martin, he doesn't openly hate his readers. Reading the second after Way of Kings at the moment, and it's a wonderful experience, not like reading Martin, which is a sour experience sometimes... let alone waiting such a slow writer.

Everything Sanderson writes is pure gold, I've read all except for the Wheel of Time


----------



## PunkBillCarson

chopeth said:


> Agreed, I much prefer him to Martin, he doesn't openly hate his readers. Reading the second after Way of Kings at the moment, and it's a wonderful experience, not like reading Martin, which is a sour experience sometimes... let alone waiting such a slow writer.
> 
> Everything Sanderson writes is pure gold, I've read all except for the Wheel of Time




You are reading the entire Cosmere right?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Where should I start with Sanderson? I'm looking for something completed since The King Killer Chronicles and AFOIAF has put me off diving into an incomplete series again.


----------



## chopeth

PunkBillCarson said:


> You are reading the entire Cosmere right?


Yeah, read Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, and at the moment I'm with Stormlight archive


----------



## Steinmetzify

Back now. 

Things are coming full circle, and they’re two days away. 

Holy crap.


----------



## MFB

I'm glad they didn't open with just straight action, the first two should be all prep - and then three that should play out like a Battle of Helms Deep, where it's just balls deep in action for long enough that we're drained emotionally, and then wrap up in the last episode when whoever is left is left.


----------



## wankerness

Pretty good episode, but it was rushed, when they could have cut out all the Euron/Cersei shit and given stuff that actually matters slightly more time to breathe!!!


----------



## mongey

I liked it. Def a little rushed but they need to get to where it needs to with limited time.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

It's interesting to see characters come back together who haven't seen each other since S1 or S2. (Ex: that moment at the end of the new episode when Jaime finally sees Bran.)

Only six episodes for this final season. So the episodes are definitely going to feel rushed and sloppy while HBO tries to tie things up nicely.

I'm just thoroughly disappointed that a complex book series with so many arcs, stories, plots, and subplots interweaving in and out of each other has been reduced to a simple "man vs. evil" (in this case, "man vs. zombie") bullshit Hollywood-esque cash grab.

A little thought that popped into my head today. Imagine being like Sophie Turner, Maisie Williams, John Bradley, or any of these other actors/actresses who had absolutely ZERO ACTING EXPERIENCE and ZERO ACTING RESUME before being cast as main characters on Game of Thrones. Like, it's been their FIRST and ONLY gig, and now they are set for life. A truly, real-life "zero to hero". Why can't the rest of us get that kind of fortune in our lives?  (And don't tell me it's a "they worked for it" situation, because it's not. They had no experience or resume going into the show. And you can't replace a main character partially through a series without immense fanbase backlash. Now, these actors/actresses will be faces endlessly recognized for generations to come.)


----------



## tedtan

Emperor Guillotine said:


> A little thought that popped into my head today. Imagine being like Sophie Turner, Maisie Williams, John Bradley, or any of these other actors/actresses who had absolutely ZERO ACTING EXPERIENCE and ZERO ACTING RESUME before being cast as main characters on Game of Thrones. Like, it's been their FIRST and ONLY gig, and now they are set for life. A truly, real-life "zero to hero". Why can't the rest of us get that kind of fortune in our lives?  (And don't tell me it's a "they worked for it" situation, because it's not. They had no experience or resume going into the show. And you can't replace a main character partially through a series without immense fanbase backlash. Now, these actors/actresses will be faces endlessly recognized for generations to come.)



They may not have had a background as actors, but they still had to win the audition for the part.


----------



## Thaeon

Lorcan Ward said:


> Where should I start with Sanderson? I'm looking for something completed since The King Killer Chronicles and AFOIAF has put me off diving into an incomplete series again.



The Mistborn series is really good. There are some weak spots, but on the whole really enjoyable. Check out The Wheel of Time if you haven't and you're interested in a project. The original author passed away before finishing the series and Sanderson wrote portions of the last 3 books. Amazon has optioned it as an Epic Fantasy series as well. Hope they don't screw the pooch on it. The series' editor is acting as a consultant/producer for the show so, I'm not completely terrified.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> Pretty good episode, but it was rushed, when they could have cut out all the Euron/Cersei shit and given stuff that actually matters slightly more time to breathe!!!


I have to assume that it's going to turn out to matter as the show goes on. I mean, Euron says he wants to get Cersei pregnant.... except we as the viewers know she already is. Sounds like an opportunity for some confusion/probable manipulation on Cersei's part.

Not really anything to spoiler here... Really, this felt like it was more about setting up for the final season than it was action. I'm fine with that, but the downside is that while I enjoyed watching it, there really isn't much new material to discuss here.

Arya had the two best reunions, IMO. Her and Jon was awesome, and seemed legitimately affectionate. Her and the Hound, I wanted more... but what we got was great. "You left me for dead." "First I robbed you." "You're a cold little bitch. Guess that's why you're still alive." There was _almost_ a hint of pride there.

Jaime and Bran coming face to face is simultaneously one of the biggest things that's happened all series... And, a seeming non-event.

I hear Episode 3 is "The Battle for Winterfell." I'm expecting Episode 2 to be more of a building episode as well, and then that one to be a Hardhome or Battle of the Bastards grade showdown.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

ooh the lannister jaguar is pretty sick
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28805-fender-unveils-the-game-of-thrones-sigil-collection


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> ooh the lannister jaguar is pretty sick
> https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28805-fender-unveils-the-game-of-thrones-sigil-collection



No Night King Showmaster? Hmmph


----------



## KnightBrolaire

nuno, scott ian and tom morello playing around with the customs


----------



## MFB

If a car's value drops by 50% the second it drives off the lot, surely there's got to be a number for how much a guitar's value drops when the first person to play it is Tom Morello?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

MFB said:


> If a car's value drops by 50% the second it drives off the lot, surely there's got to be a number for how much a guitar's value drops when the first person to play it is Tom Morello?


I mean even if we slashed 75% off the price because he played it, it'd still be like a 9000+$ guitar


----------



## Lorcan Ward

A solid episode reuniting characters in one place and setting up the future conflicts. The show has its big positives and negatives, even more so since they've run out of source material. It definitely feels like a TV show now instead of an adaption. No idea how its going to end but I hope it pays off.


----------



## Xaios

Thaeon said:


> Hope they don't screw the pooch on it.


They couldn't possibly do any worse than the series pilot that was made a few years ago. It was _truly_ something special (which, granted, is practically guaranteed to happen when you cast Billy Zane).


----------



## Thaeon

Xaios said:


> They couldn't possibly do any worse than the series pilot that was made a few years ago. It was _truly_ something special (which, granted, is practically guaranteed to happen when you cast Billy Zane).



Special is definitely a word for it...


----------



## Seabeast2000

Xaios said:


> They couldn't possibly do any worse than the series pilot that was made a few years ago. It was _truly_ something special (which, granted, is practically guaranteed to happen when you cast Billy Zane).



Wait, are you talking about that Amazon series set in Belize?


----------



## MFB

Thaeon said:


> Special is definitely a word for it...



I'm not even a minute in to it, and I have no clue what the fuck is going on, mainly because of how many times they said the word "age"


----------



## Thaeon

The906 said:


> Wait, are you talking about that Amazon series set in Belize?



Last I saw they were set to start filming end of summer in Prague.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

KnightBrolaire said:


> ooh the lannister jaguar is pretty sick
> https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28805-fender-unveils-the-game-of-thrones-sigil-collection


Telecasters and House Stark. Two of my favorite things. I wish I could afford to shell out the insane price for that axe. 

They should've gone the mass produced route since showrunner Dan Weiss mentioned it in the video when they were initially discussing the concept.


----------



## MFB

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Telecasters and House Stark. Two of my favorite things. I wish I could afford to shell out the insane price for that axe.
> 
> They should've gone the mass produced route since showrunner Dan Weiss mentioned it in the video when they were initially discussing the concept.



It'd be super easy to do too, all you need is some vaguely Celtic/Norse style binding around the edge, distressed hardware, house banner as 12th fret inlay, and you're done; sell em at $2K MAP and watch the money come in.


----------



## Drew

Spoiler



There's no way Jaime survives Season 8 Episode 3. Calling it now.


----------



## MFB

Drew said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> There's no way Jaime survives Season 8 Episode 3. Calling it now.





Spoiler



If he stays to the back giving field advice to Brienne, I think he will, but with a sword - and I've yet to understand why he doesn't have some sort of blade prosthetic made? - it's dicey.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Spoiler



I want to knw which one/s will become WW's. EDIT: I mean now that they've closed the circle on all these major players with buried hatchets and heartfelt reunions and all that. Some will be slayed, a few got to be turned into WW's IMO.


----------



## Drew

MFB said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If he stays to the back giving field advice to Brienne, I think he will, but with a sword - and I've yet to understand why he doesn't have some sort of blade prosthetic made? - it's dicey.





Spoiler



more just that his transformation into a fundamentally, even exceptionally, decent character is complete. A detail the show skipped that the books didn't (where this clearly hasn't happened) - in Westeros it's considered an honor to have been knighted by a particularly famous or illustrious night, and Jaime was knighted by Ser Barristan Selmy, Barrister the Bold, commander of the Kingsguard, about the highest honor a knight could have. Yet, it's quiet gossip in the books that Jaime himself has never knighted anyone. So, when Jaime knights Ser Brienne of Tarth, that's the first time he's _ever_ knighted anyone. Jaime is a controversial figure, but his reputation as one of the most dangerous swordsmen in the Seven Kingdoms was never questioned, and for Brienne to be the first - and, likely, only - knight he raises is significant.


----------



## wankerness

That episode was really frustrating for me. It was just "everyone gets a fanservice moment before the big battle," but they were all flatly written, many were rushed through, some were crappily written and some were crappily acted. Like, that scene with Davos, or everything with Jora (who I usually like), or the terrible discussion with Arya/Gendry where she's asking him how many women he's slept with, or Emilia Clarke's inability to do more facial expressions other than "REALLY big grin with squinted eyes that looks fake" or "take me seriously please, I'm stern!!!" in her couple of scenes. I liked the Sansa/her scene in theory but she kinda f'd it up. The knighting Brienne thing also was really on the nose, but whatever, that one was acted well at least. That whole fireplace scene made the episode worth it. Theon/Sansa was good, as was pretty much everything with Jaime through the first half.

Also, I was watching it with a friend who was getting progressively more upset and asked me to check how much time was remaining (I was streaming it) a couple times cause he was desperate to see some battle action before the end. So, that probably colored things. 

Spoiler for one line in the preview for next episode:



Spoiler



That "the dead are already here!!!" line from Dany in the preview might be referring to the crypts, where they're hiding all the people who can't fight? I saw some discussions about that. I say probably not, cause isn't everyone there just a skeleton at this point? It would be exciting, though.

A lot of people are also speculating they'll pretty much just get a tiny army thrown at them by the NK while he takes the vast majority of his forces to King's Landing, and then THAT will be the really big battle going forward. Who knows? I'm looking forward to next week, that's for sure.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> That "the dead are already here!!!" line from Dany in the preview might be referring to the crypts, where they're hiding all the people who can't fight? I saw some discussions about that. I say probably not, cause isn't everyone there just a skeleton at this point? It would be exciting, though.
> 
> A lot of people are also speculating they'll pretty much just get a tiny army thrown at them by the NK while he takes the vast majority of his forces to King's Landing, and then THAT will be the really big battle going forward. Who knows? I'm looking forward to next week, that's for sure.





Spoiler



A friend of mine commented on that today - "If you were fighting an undead army led by someone who could raise the dead, wouldn't the crypts be the WORST place to hide?" which has led to a lot of speculation. I think for various plot reasons the Night King can't work that way, though, and must be only able to raise the recently dead. His army doesn't have to kill them himselves - Wildlings burn their dead so they don't come back - but I can't think of a single point in the action where he's risen something or someone that's been long dead, and there are thousands of years of dead bodies buried in Westeros so even if he was limited to only those who hadn't been decayed to dust, if he could really raise any dead then attacking Winterfell would be a waste of time since he could just wander the seven kingdoms and have his army get bigger and bigger every time they passed a recent battlefield, until he was completely unstoppable. I don't know what the cutoff is, 24 hours, maybe 48, but I figure it has to be recent or the whole story falls apart because the bad guy is too powerful. 

And the fact the Night King himself isn't seen at the head of his army IS kind of interesting. It would certainly be an unexpected surprise for Cersei.


----------



## Drew

Been thinking about this today. New crackpot theory, that actually holds water weirdly well and has kind of won over the few friends I've sent it to.



Spoiler



I think Jaime is going to die next episode, but not until he kills the Night's King, potentially ending the war against the undead. Couple reasons.

Meta-reason: Jaime has completed a character arc from kind of a monster in Season 1 Episode 1, to a legitimate warm, caring, sympathetic, likeable guy. In GRRM's world, that's basically a death sentence.

Simple-ish reason: Jaime is, after all, the Kingslayer. It makes sense

Somewhat more complex reason: In King's Landing, he killed a king of fire at the start of the events of the story, killing the Mad King Aerys before he could burn King's Landing. The Night's King is a king of ice. It makes sense in GRRM's universe.

More complex reason: Bran spent all of episode one waiting in the courtyard for "an old friend." at the end of the season we learn that was Jaime. Except it wasn't for some sort of showdown, Jaime pushed Bran out the window, but Bran is now the Three Eyed Raven and knows he wouldn't have become the Three Eyed Raven if it wasn't for Jaime, and that neither is the person they used to be. I.e - he really doesn't care anymore. So, he had some other reason for waiting for Jaime to arrive. Bran has been marked by the Night's King and will be the bait to draw him out in the Battle of Winterfell, and he wanted to make sure Jaime was there when it happens.

That would mean, in all probability, Jaime Lannister is Azor Ahai.


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



If true, do you think the Night King kills him as _his_ final act, or it happens post-NK death?


----------



## Drew

MFB said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> If true, do you think the Night King kills him as _his_ final act, or it happens post-NK death?


If _I_ had to write it?


Spoiler



Jaime ends up in the godswood with Bran, somehow, the godswood is aflame, the Night King goes to try to kill Bran, and Jaime, knowing full well it's a lost cause (and echoing his charge against Dany and Drogon), tries to defend him anyway, and gets cut down. The Night King goes to step over Jaime's bleeding body, Jaime sees a Valaryian steel or dragonglass blade in the flames near him, grabs it, probably burning himself in the process, and manages to stab the Night's King with it before he blacks out, fulfilling the prophesy and saving Bran's life after nearly killing him in the open, and the Kingslayer, one of the most scorned knights of the Seven Kingdoms, ends up being the hero to save the Seven Kingdoms from the White Walkers.

I mean, there's no way a left-handed Jaime can stand against the Night's King in single combat. He's not the fighter he used to be, and he knows it. The only shot he has is if he manages to hold on long enough after the Night's King thinks he's already killed him.


----------



## mongey

I have a few mixed feelings on the last ep. I actuality liked allot of what they did,or tried to do , but it was all so rushed . I'm guessing its going to be all go from here now there everyone has caught up . but that could've been 3 episodes and really fleshed it out . hell, I feel like all the catching up could be a whole season to get ready for the finale 

maybe it was the 2 long necks of Belgian strong ale in me , but I got emotional at the Brienne scene


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

mongey said:


> maybe it was the 2 long necks of Belgian strong ale in me , but I got emotional at the Brienne scene


I got emotional as well. So many seasons building up to that moment. You as the viewer knew how badly she wanted it (even though she denied it to multiple characters, except for Pod who is the _only_ character in the story who knew the truth), and she finally got it as her reward.

That whole, little, fireplace hearth powwow scene with Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Pod, Davos, and Tormund was so well-done. It shows how all these characters of such vastly diverse backgrounds all come together and spend what could be their final night alive just sharing their humanity while all of the other characters in Winterfell are simply looking for some human solace of their own.



Spoiler



I am kind of pissed that "Gendrya" happened, but I guess we saw it coming from a mile away in Season 1. If I recall correctly, Genry and Arya have zero romantic interest in the book series and don't even think about each other at all during their respective journeys. 

Thank goodness that "Jonsa" isn't happening though. The "Jonsa" shippers are literally one of the worst, most obnoxious, most toxic factions of a fanbase that I've ever encountered. And I say that counting fanbases across all sorts of mediums such as: music, film, TV, books, etc. "Jonsa" shippers are the fucking worst.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Drew said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> There's no way Jaime survives Season 8 Episode 3. Calling it now.





Spoiler



Jaime will survive because he has to kill Cersei. I'm calling it. He will become a "Queenslayer" in addition to being the "Kingslayer", and he will have to make the choice to kill the woman he loves who now carries yet another one of his offspring.





Drew said:


> Been thinking about this today. New crackpot theory, that actually holds water weirdly well and has kind of won over the few friends I've sent it to.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I think Jaime is going to die next episode, but not until he kills the Night's King, potentially ending the war against the undead. Couple reasons.
> 
> Meta-reason: Jaime has completed a character arc from kind of a monster in Season 1 Episode 1, to a legitimate warm, caring, sympathetic, likeable guy. In GRRM's world, that's basically a death sentence.
> 
> Simple-ish reason: Jaime is, after all, the Kingslayer. It makes sense
> 
> Somewhat more complex reason: In King's Landing, he killed a king of fire at the start of the events of the story, killing the Mad King Aerys before he could burn King's Landing. The Night's King is a king of ice. It makes sense in GRRM's universe.
> 
> More complex reason: Bran spent all of episode one waiting in the courtyard for "an old friend." at the end of the season we learn that was Jaime. Except it wasn't for some sort of showdown, Jaime pushed Bran out the window, but Bran is now the Three Eyed Raven and knows he wouldn't have become the Three Eyed Raven if it wasn't for Jaime, and that neither is the person they used to be. I.e - he really doesn't care anymore. So, he had some other reason for waiting for Jaime to arrive. Bran has been marked by the Night's King and will be the bait to draw him out in the Battle of Winterfell, and he wanted to make sure Jaime was there when it happens.
> 
> That would mean, in all probability, Jaime Lannister is Azor Ahai.


Holy shit. Well thought out, @Drew.


----------



## Xaios

I really liked the last episode. Was it a masterclass on writing high art television? No. But it felt really human. I had _feeeeeels_ maaan.


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I got emotional as well. So many seasons building up to that moment. You as the viewer knew how badly she wanted it (even though she denied it to multiple characters, except for Pod who is the _only_ character in the story who knew the truth), and she finally got it as her reward.
> 
> That whole, little, fireplace hearth powwow scene with Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Pod, Davos, and Tormund was so well-done. It shows how all these characters of such vastly diverse backgrounds all come together and spend what could be their final night alive just sharing their humanity while all of the other characters in Winterfell are simply looking for some human solace of their own.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I am kind of pissed that "Gendrya" happened, but I guess we saw it coming from a mile away in Season 1. If I recall correctly, Genry and Arya have zero romantic interest in the book series and don't even think about each other at all during their respective journeys.
> 
> Thank goodness that "Jonsa" isn't happening though. The "Jonsa" shippers are literally one of the worst, most obnoxious, most toxic factions of a fanbase that I've ever encountered. And I say that counting fanbases across all sorts of mediums such as: music, film, TV, books, etc. "Jonsa" shippers are the fucking worst.





Spoiler



It was hinted at a little bit as they were fleeing Harrenhall, as I recall - they worked well as a team, they cared for each other, and while it was told from Arya's point of view and Arya has no patience for romance stories and whatnot, I recall her being angry and hurt and calling him bull-headed because Gendry went off with Dondarrian and the Brotherhood to be a blacksmith rather than continuing to Winterfell with her. It was one of those things that due to each character's limited perspective wasn't _said_ (because Arya would never admit it to herself) but unless my memory is dead wrong there was potential there.



And, re: my crackpot theory.... Yeah, it hangs together awfully well, no? 



Spoiler



Re: Cersei, two possible things could reconcile this. First, it could be Tyrion after all who kills her, despite that looking a lot like a false flag since technically Jaime was born just after she was. Second, someone I know suggested that when Jaime dies, Arya could steal his face, and use it to get close to Cersei and kill her wearing Jaime's face, which would technically preserve the prophecy, I suppose. This is of course complicated by Cersei having put a price on Jaime's head, but 1) Arya doesn't know that, and 2) Cersei is consistently not nearly as smart as she thinks she is, though that's probably truer in the books than the show (in the books, once she takes the throne as Tommen's reagent, GRRM's characterization of her is downright cruel at times).


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Spoiler: This episode



So while I liked the episode, I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed with the Night King's death. For a character they've been building up for so long, what he took with him in terms of lives felt rather... it felt like they hadn't earned his death, especially not like that. That felt rather cheap to me for a character who's supposed to have been the worst thing they could possibly fight. I have to say, I'm having a hard time getting amped for what's to come knowing that Cersei couldn't possibly do HALF of what the NK is capable of. Will it be easy, no. But in terms of impact, while there were some losses, I feel like they still didn't have the impact they should have. On the other hand, they also sent 40,000 Dothraki straight to their deaths (or supposedly that was the number) so a MASSIVE part of their army is missing. I think it's ONLY for this reason alone that the battle with Cersei will be difficult, but IMO the Night King only served to nerf the fuck out of Jon/Dany's army because with all three dragons, plus the forces they had before, it would have been a wash.


----------



## Seabeast2000

PunkBillCarson said:


> Spoiler: This episode
> 
> 
> 
> So while I liked the episode, I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed with the Night King's death. For a character they've been building up for so long, what he took with him in terms of lives felt rather... it felt like they hadn't earned his death, especially not like that. That felt rather cheap to me for a character who's supposed to have been the worst thing they could possibly fight. I have to say, I'm having a hard time getting amped for what's to come knowing that Cersei couldn't possibly do HALF of what the NK is capable of. Will it be easy, no. But in terms of impact, while there were some losses, I feel like they still didn't have the impact they should have. On the other hand, they also sent 40,000 Dothraki straight to their deaths (or supposedly that was the number) so a MASSIVE part of their army is missing. I think it's ONLY for this reason alone that the battle with Cersei will be difficult, but IMO the Night King only served to nerf the fuck out of Jon/Dany's army because with all three dragons, plus the forces they had before, it would have been a wash.





Spoiler



I was not expecting that ending, was expecting a much larger part of this season with that fucker. I was growing tired of the sheer untouchability of the NK but then poof its over. LOL, I was also expecting the NK to kneel at Bran's feet when they met.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

The906 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I was not expecting that ending, was expecting a much larger part of this season with that fucker. I was growing tired of the sheer untouchability of the NK but then poof its over. LOL, I was also expecting the NK to kneel at Bran's feet when they met.






Spoiler



I didn't even mind the sheer untouchability, but it's just... this dude was a supreme fucking badass with possible Green Seer abilities... He had to have know that that was a trap, surely. I feel like they took the all powerful tactician and reduced him to an overzealous being and that just doesn't... it doesn't do it for me.


----------



## wankerness

Spoiler



Dumb episode. The ending was fine and I am ok with no more white walkers, but I hated how it was paced. Like, what the hell did we need the lengthy zombies in the library sequence for? Did the battle outside just pause? Speaking of that, what was Berric walking down the hall all slowly and stealthily for when his sword was on fucking fire?!

The action was not well filmed and the tactics frequently made no sense, making the scenes doubly frustrating. On top of that, the episode was drenched in blacks and snow clouds, two things that digital compression absolutely can’t handle without a healthy bitrate. Compression artifacts EVERYWHERE! I guess I’ll have to wait for Blu-ray to give it a better shake, but it was fatally flawed for more reasons than just that.

Could anyone tell what the hell was going on with the dragons? Like, I mean, I was sure both the undead dragon and the one Jon was riding died, but apparently neither did (well, I mean the undead one came back to menace Jon after that point, not that it was alive at the end of the episode). The latter I only found out was alive from the preview next week still showing two dragons!

Glad to see Lyanna go, that character was getting terribly overused after her great first appearance. It was dumb how no important characters died at all besides two whose arcs ended naturally anyway, but oh well, I guess they’re saving everything for the last few episodes.


----------



## bouVIP

Spoiler



Just wanted to say fuck Sam. God that made me so fucking angry after he even wasted time talking about how he wanted to fight with them. Also you think they'd line the walls with oil or something so they can just burn the corpses as they climb up the wall. Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode and how it ended mostly....it was both bad and good somehow.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, he totally Saving Private Ryan’d it up. We were getting mad at him being alive too, even though I’ve generally liked him till this episode!


----------



## Seabeast2000

Spoiler



@wankerness , totally got you on the artifacting. I thought it was my friend's shitty Vizio TV for a while. It was tough to watch.


----------



## wankerness

The906 said:


> @wankerness , totally got you on the artifacting. I thought it was my friend's shitty Vizio TV for a while. It was tough to watch.



Yeah. My friend that was over asked "why is it all melty" in reference to the blacks banding as he isn't a blu-ray nerd like me but still could tell something was wrong. It wasn't that HBO's bitrates were any worse than normal. Like, the shots of the dragons fighting out above the clouds in the moonlight looked absolutely stunning with precise detail as they didn't contain fog or blacks. A whole ton of everything else that took place outdoors, though, sheesh. Even people standing around next to torches that created a few progressively dark shades of black resulted in it looking like rings instead of smooth gradients. It was a good advertisement for why there's still going to be a place for blu-ray/4k until bandwidth increases considerably and/or ISP bandwidth caps stop being a thing, though!


----------



## jaxadam

wankerness said:


> Yeah. My friend that was over asked "why is it all melty" in reference to the blacks banding as he isn't a blu-ray nerd like me but still could tell something was wrong. It wasn't that HBO's bitrates were any worse than normal. Like, the shots of the dragons fighting out above the clouds in the moonlight looked absolutely stunning with precise detail as they didn't contain fog or blacks. A whole ton of everything else that took place outdoors, though, sheesh. Even people standing around next to torches that created a few progressively dark shades of black resulted in it looking like rings instead of smooth gradients. It was a good advertisement for why there's still going to be a place for blu-ray/4k until bandwidth increases considerably and/or ISP bandwidth caps stop being a thing, though!



I noticed it on my TV with the dark scenes and thought it was weird, because my TV can handle just about anything. It was definitely very obvious on this episode, especially in the dark clouds and fog types of scenes. Somewhat strange for this level of production.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb episode. The ending was fine and I am ok with no more white walkers, but I hated how it was paced. Like, what the hell did we need the lengthy zombies in the library sequence for? Did the battle outside just pause? Speaking of that, what was Berric walking down the hall all slowly and stealthily for when his sword was on fucking fire?!
> 
> The action was not well filmed and the tactics frequently made no sense, making the scenes doubly frustrating. On top of that, the episode was drenched in blacks and snow clouds, two things that digital compression absolutely can’t handle without a healthy bitrate. Compression artifacts EVERYWHERE! I guess I’ll have to wait for Blu-ray to give it a better shake, but it was fatally flawed for more reasons than just that.
> 
> Could anyone tell what the hell was going on with the dragons? Like, I mean, I was sure both the undead dragon and the one Jon was riding died, but apparently neither did (well, I mean the undead one came back to menace Jon after that point, not that it was alive at the end of the episode). The latter I only found out was alive from the preview next week still showing two dragons!
> 
> Glad to see Lyanna go, that character was getting terribly overused after her great first appearance. It was dumb how no important characters died at all besides two whose arcs ended naturally anyway, but oh well, I guess they’re saving everything for the last few episodes.





Spoiler



So, the pacing was evidently by design - the directors evidently sat a large group of people down with the Hobbit/LotR movies to analyze about how long the average person could watch an unbroken epic battle scene without being completely overwhelmed and exhausted, and then used scenes like Arya in the library or the dragon dogfight to break up the unbroken carnage to preserve the action but break up the pacing. I actually liked how they balanced the macro battle with more tense close-up scenes, but I could totally see where someone might be bothered by that too, I guess. 

I struggled with the image quality too - we usually watch at a buddy's place but for various reasons were at another friend's house for this one, and his TV - either the screen itself or the buffering - was really struggling with the dark snowy blizzard scenes. The visual effect was almost as if ice crystals were rapidly forming and spreading across the screen over and over again, which I was worried was a production decision and I hope to god was the TV/streaming instead. We're going back to our usual spot next week and will re-watch this before Ep 4, and I'm looking forward to seeing it again, hopefully clearer.





The906 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I was not expecting that ending, was expecting a much larger part of this season with that fucker. I was growing tired of the sheer untouchability of the NK but then poof its over. LOL, I was also expecting the NK to kneel at Bran's feet when they met.


You know, honestly, I thought he might, too.  



Spoiler



I fully expected him to either die this episode - the alternative would be he won and then marched on King's Landing, and honestly wiht two more dragons and another 60-70,000 walking dead, it would just be too one-sided a battle. 

I don't love how they did it, though. I mean, awesome scene, well-foreshadowed (Arya sneaks up on Jon in the exact same spot, and pulls the same move on Brienne in the training yard)... But GRRM spent five books, and the creators spent seven seasons, speculating about the Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised prophecies, and then the character that's been highly trained as an assassin and in any other world would be the obvious pick to assassinate someone actually goes and assassinates him after all, with nothing about flaming swords or being born amongst smoke and salt or red stars in the skies to be seen. Yeah, GRRM definitely intentionally fucks with genre conventions and maybe the whole point here is the prohpesies are all a false flag, but it just feels wrong, in ways Eddard's execution or the Red Wedding or Oberyn Martel's death didn't. 

I could be accused of sour grapes, of course, but I think my theory that it was going to be Jaime would have made for a more satisfying story.


----------



## wankerness

jaxadam said:


> I noticed it on my TV with the dark scenes and thought it was weird, because my TV can handle just about anything. It was definitely very obvious on this episode, especially in the dark clouds and fog types of scenes. Somewhat strange for this level of production.



It has zero to do with your TV, completely down to compression on the source. It will look fine on Blu-ray.


----------



## Sumsar

Yeah it looks like the compresison algorithm wasn't really optimized for nice blacks, since it is so evident that it is where the rendering throw a lot of data away to get it down to something streamable. I guess it makes sense since most screens can't show blacks for their life, or at least that was the case a few years ago.
But yeah someone should have thought about that when the color grading is that half the screen for 60 mins is variations of black.



Spoiler: Spoiler



I liked the episode, I thought they did a good job of not just being 60 mins of battle battle battle, as that gets old really fast. 
I agree that it was a bit weird with the battle kinda stopping (why don't we still hear battle from the outside? when in the library etc) and also to me it seemed that everybody outside the wall pretty much died, next scene you see a shit ton of people fleeing into the castle with a ton of the slave soldier dudes defending them, and I was like "What? didn't you all just die?" apparently not.
Also why did they go so dumb on the strategy for the battle? Let us send all of our riders into death. Then have our catapuls placed in front of the infantry (wtf?) and generally having the infantry outside the walls? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have all infantry in the castle and then maybe at like halfway through the battle have the cavalry charge the flank of the undead or something along those lines? while hiding on the other side of the castle for the first half?
Also also kinda disappointed about the lack of 'Boss battle' with the Night King, maybe just have him like battle Jon Snow Targaryan and then raise the undead and move on without either of them winning or something like that?
Could also had been cool with the Night King talking to either Bran or Jon, which I think would have made it more powerfull when he died?
Anyway, let us see what comes next


----------



## Seabeast2000

Hey, I didn't rewatch the series and forgot a few details. What happened to the The Vail guys? The ones who saved Jon against the Bolton army?


----------



## Drew

Sumsar said:


> Yeah it looks like the compresison algorithm wasn't really optimized for nice blacks, since it is so evident that it is where the rendering throw a lot of data away to get it down to something streamable. I guess it makes sense since most screens can't show blacks for their life, or at least that was the case a few years ago.
> But yeah someone should have thought about that when the color grading is that half the screen for 60 mins is variations of black.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I liked the episode, I thought they did a good job of not just being 60 mins of battle battle battle, as that gets old really fast.
> I agree that it was a bit weird with the battle kinda stopping (why don't we still hear battle from the outside? when in the library etc) and also to me it seemed that everybody outside the wall pretty much died, next scene you see a shit ton of people fleeing into the castle with a ton of the slave soldier dudes defending them, and I was like "What? didn't you all just die?" apparently not.
> Also why did they go so dumb on the strategy for the battle? Let us send all of our riders into death. Then have our catapuls placed in front of the infantry (wtf?) and generally having the infantry outside the walls? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have all infantry in the castle and then maybe at like halfway through the battle have the cavalry charge the flank of the undead or something along those lines? while hiding on the other side of the castle for the first half?
> Also also kinda disappointed about the lack of 'Boss battle' with the Night King, maybe just have him like battle Jon Snow Targaryan and then raise the undead and move on without either of them winning or something like that?
> Could also had been cool with the Night King talking to either Bran or Jon, which I think would have made it more powerfull when he died?
> Anyway, let us see what comes next





Spoiler



Honestly, a giant "boss fight" pitting Jon against the Night King is the kind of fantasy trope that GRRM has pretty consistently tried to subvert. I'd have been more surprised had it happened, than that it didn't, at the end there. 

I think the biggest issue I have with how the Night King died was I fully expected whoever killed him to die in the process, and it feels a little like a gimmie that Arya survived. Though even then... Melisandre starts by saying she sees a darkness inside her, and in that darkness eyes that she will shut. It _could_ be Arya's training as a Faceless Man... But it could be the very act of killing the Night King also changed or cursed her in some manner, in which case we're not out of the woods yet. That seems a stretch... but I think the darkness is important, somehow.


----------



## Drew

The906 said:


> Hey, I didn't rewatch the series and forgot a few details. What happened to the The Vail guys? The ones who saved Jon against the Bolton army?


Well, by elimination, they were either fighting for Winterfell, or fighting for the Night's King, if they were anywhere in the area.


----------



## mongey

I have allot of thoughts on it but def need to watch it again to really solidify it. I liked things and found some things weird. 

One thing for sure. The Dothraki should have never crossed the sea. 

I thought we just got a shitty stream here in Australia with the picture quality. But looks like it was same for everyone. I found a few parts bordering on un watchable.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Spoiler



glad to see I'm not the only one that hard a really difficult time telling what the hell was going on for parts of the battle sequence. Between the literal blur of zombies smashing into people and the abuse of black/storms to obscure rendering the battlefield I was getting pretty frustrated. Their battle plan was unbelievably stupid tbh. If you know you're going to get besieged, then why the hell would you want to engage the enemy in open battle? Jon and some of the others have fought wights before, so they should know better than to bother fighting them that way, as you just get overrun (ie Hardhome/The Wall). The whole dragon fight in the skies was very difficult to follow. I'm kind of pissed that Sam managed to survive somehow, that made no sense considering how many more competent fighters were dying. Yay Plot armor. Same goes with Jaime. He got surrounded and overrun multiple times, but somehow managed to survive. At least in Brienne's case it makes sense, but Jaime was running around with one hand..
I honestly thought the body count would be far higher considering how many secondary and tertiary characters were in winterfell. Also, am I crazy or did gilly get killed by the wights in the crypt? I thought it was her they showed being dragged off but it wasn't super obvious.
I wasn't expecting them to be able to deal with the NK in one episode, that was pretty anticlimactic tbh. I'm basically meh on the episode overall. It had some great moments and some not so great ones.


----------



## gunshow86de

Spoiler



It seemed pretty obvious that Arya was going to be the one that killed the Knight King. My main gripe is that they chose to make her a dumb super hero. Instead of using the skills she would have learned training with the most legendary assassin guild on their planet. I was rooting for her to figure out how to change faces with a white walker or something to get close enough to kill him. Instead a 5 foot tall teenage girl goes 1 vs 30 on super zombies, then later just straight suicide rushes in to the Big Show NK's chokeslam and drops the blade to her other hand and stabs him.


----------



## Drew

Only thing I'll say on the Dothraki...


Spoiler



What else do you do with them? They're cavalry trained to, and extremely good at, fighting on horseback in the open ground. You can't exactly tell them to man the battlements, and holding them back in the hopes the unsullied are able to deal with the army of the dead seems, well... rather optimistic. Having them charge blind at the army of the dead is dumb too - honestly, couldn't they light a few bonfires out there just for visibility? - but they're kind of a square peg in a round hole anyway, when you're talking about basically a siege. They at least looked fucking awesome charging, so.... yay? 

That's not to say there weren't a whole bunch of tactical blunders made, but they're the sort you would expect of an army not used to fighting the undead. Not too many living men will lay down on a fiery trench to form a bridge for their companions, not too many living men will swarm the walls of a castle World War Z style to build a human ramp for their buddies to clamber up. Putting Bran in the Godswood surrounded by a bunch of archers, yeah I get the idea but couldn't you get a few guys with swords in there too? 

Really though... Plenty of bad decisions, but I'm not sure what you WOULD do with the Dothraki there. Maybe make the perimeter trench bigger and taller, use it to funnel the army of the dead into a narrow corridor, and then sweep them up with the Dothraki as they come through? That'd ahve to be a huge wall though and that would likely have been overrun too same as the smaller one, so it wouldn't have really done much. I think the bigger problem is cavalry are just a shitty asset for seige warfare.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

KnightBrolaire said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> glad to see I'm not the only one that hard a really difficult time telling what the hell was going on for parts of the battle sequence. Between the literal blur of zombies smashing into people and the abuse of black/storms to obscure rendering the battlefield I was getting pretty frustrated. Their battle plan was unbelievably stupid tbh. If you know you're going to get besieged, then why the hell would you want to engage the enemy in open battle? Jon and some of the others have fought wights before, so they should know better than to bother fighting them that way, as you just get overrun (ie Hardhome/The Wall). The whole dragon fight in the skies was very difficult to follow. I'm kind of pissed that Sam managed to survive somehow, that made no sense considering how many more competent fighters were dying. Yay Plot armor. Same goes with Jaime. He got surrounded and overrun multiple times, but somehow managed to survive. At least in Brienne's case it makes sense, but Jaime was running around with one hand..
> I honestly thought the body count would be far higher considering how many secondary and tertiary characters were in winterfell. Also, am I crazy or did gilly get killed by the wights in the crypt? I thought it was her they showed being dragged off but it wasn't super obvious.
> I wasn't expecting them to be able to deal with the NK in one episode, that was pretty anticlimactic tbh. I'm basically meh on the episode overall. It had some great moments and some not so great ones.






Spoiler: Agreed



with most of this, actually. I felt like for them to take down someone like the NK, not NEARLY enough was lost. I must sure, we lost the Dothraki, but I mean... we lost some good ones, but not nearly enough a sacrifice to take down someone as powerful as the Night King was presented. Also, how much credibility does it really give the whole Azor Ahai prophecy? I feel like they think we have short memories because all that shit only for NK to be killed by a surprise attack. I'll put it this way, I wouldn't have had a problem with him dying like that if taking him down actually meant something and something was lost besides what was on the battlefield. But agree. Good moments, but certainly they didn't earn what they got. As I said before, they essentially used NK to nerf Jon/Dany for Cersei which they'll probably still win, just not as easy this time.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

gunshow86de said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed pretty obvious that Arya was going to be the one that killed the Knight King. My main gripe is that they chose to make her a dumb super hero. Instead of using the skills she would have learned training with the most legendary assassin guild on their planet. I was rooting for her to figure out how to change faces with a white walker or something to get close enough to kill him. Instead a 5 foot tall teenage girl goes 1 vs 30 on super zombies, then later just straight suicide rushes in to the Big Show NK's chokeslam and drops the blade to her other hand and stabs him.






Spoiler



I'm not even upset that they did that, I'm more upset at the fact that the NK has been portrayed as an all powerful tactician only to fall into a trap like that. Surely he had to have realized that getting to Bran was simply too easy? Lazy on the writer's part.


----------



## Drew

PunkBillCarson said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even upset that they did that, I'm more upset at the fact that the NK has been portrayed as an all powerful tactician only to fall into a trap like that. Surely he had to have realized that getting to Bran was simply too easy? Lazy on the writer's part.





Spoiler: not sure I agree



where was he portrayed as an expert tactician though? He's sort of an immutable force, true... But there isn't much tactical about what he's done. I don't remember if he was at the Fist of the First men in the show (he doesn't exist in the books) but there's nothing particularly tactical about that assault, and a decent number of the Night's Watch escape that. The scene at the lake, the dead basically just surround an island and wait, and his major win in that one is he just throws a javelin at a dragon, killing it and then raising it as a wight. The most "tactical" thing he does is choose a fairly good spot to cut through the Wall with Dragonfire, but even then if he was bound for Winterfell and Bran you have to wonder why they chose Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and not the Shadow Tower, since that was on the complete wrong direction from the Craster's Keep/Castle Black area where we knew they were at some point.

Idunno. Massive unyielding force of nature, sure. But the Night's King seems to me to have all the tactical finesse of a glacier.


----------



## mongey

Spoiler: hhmm



One thing i think is interesting is how integral the lord of light and the red woman were to it all. basically without lord of light the NK wins . Berric was begin revived soley to save Aria in the library .the red woman knew that aria would be the one to kill NK 

Dothraki - it just seemed like they were superfluous to the story and need to get rid of them all in one quick swipe . the tactic just made no sense

and sam spazzing out in the battle was just a bad decision .makes no sense for him to be there at all .
*
*


----------



## wankerness

How was Melisandre integral? She does two things that are almost immediately snuffed out by the baddies and she tells Arya something that apparently was going to happen anyway!

Oh well, I was glad to see Carice Van Houten and her boingy walk again.


----------



## mongey

wankerness said:


> How was Melisandre integral? She does two things that are almost immediately snuffed out by the baddies and she tells Arya something that apparently was going to happen anyway!
> 
> Oh well, I was glad to see Carice Van Houten and her boingy walk again.



she brought back john snow from the dead to lead the armies

that is why she could bring him back.I mean integral to the whole thing. not just the battle


----------



## Seabeast2000

Drew said:


> Well, by elimination, they were either fighting for Winterfell, or fighting for the Night's King, if they were anywhere in the area.



good enough, I just didn't see them anywhere specific or forgot what the looked like. Probably missed a plot point a few seasons ago....


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Drew said:


> Spoiler: not sure I agree
> 
> 
> 
> where was he portrayed as an expert tactician though? He's sort of an immutable force, true... But there isn't much tactical about what he's done. I don't remember if he was at the Fist of the First men in the show (he doesn't exist in the books) but there's nothing particularly tactical about that assault, and a decent number of the Night's Watch escape that. The scene at the lake, the dead basically just surround an island and wait, and his major win in that one is he just throws a javelin at a dragon, killing it and then raising it as a wight. The most "tactical" thing he does is choose a fairly good spot to cut through the Wall with Dragonfire, but even then if he was bound for Winterfell and Bran you have to wonder why they chose Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and not the Shadow Tower, since that was on the complete wrong direction from the Craster's Keep/Castle Black area where we knew they were at some point.
> 
> Idunno. Massive unyielding force of nature, sure. But the Night's King seems to me to have all the tactical finesse of a glacier.






Spoiler



It was certainly more tactical than anything anyone else has done. You don't get an army comprised of wights, White Walkers, a giant, and a dragon without some degree of planning. Not to mention, nearly every single time the NK has shown up, he's caught people with their pants down, merely adding to it. Still, I cannot believe the NK would fall for what he did.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

That was a wonderful inconsistent mess of an episode but it was very entertaining for sure. It was too Hollywood-esque and didn't feel much like GOT. It's a very different show when you go back and look at the writing, acting, dialogue etc of older seasons. I suppose that's down to lack of source material and shifting the tone of the show to a wider TV audience. 



Spoiler



i can't believe they resolved the Long Night and army of the dead so quickly. It feels a little anticlimactic knowing that cersei is next and the army of the dead never make it past Winterfell. I'm in shock at that one. Maybe there is more! We know there is a prequel show about the Long Night on the works.


----------



## diagrammatiks

meh that episode was bad and it should feel bad. But there's 3 more episodes left.
Maybe there's something really tricky coming next time



Spoiler: Spoilers



Although if we are talking about subverting viewer and genre expectations...

you thought everyone was gonna die? no one really dies
you thought this conflict was going to be several episodes long? it's done
you thought the crypt wights was too obvious to happen? it's happening

ehhhh


----------



## beerandbeards

I still have so many questions about the NK.... I hope some stuff is explained in the next episodes


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I think that might be it and the prequel show will delve into him more. I'm not sure if it's common knowledge but the Night King was created for the show so they have no source material to reference.


----------



## jaxadam

Lorcan Ward said:


> I'm not sure if it's common knowledge but the Night King was created for the show so they have no source material to reference.



I did not know that...


----------



## wankerness

mongey said:


> she brought back john snow from the dead to lead the armies
> 
> that is why she could bring him back.I mean integral to the whole thing. not just the battle



Ah. I thought you meant to the episode.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Lorcan Ward said:


> That was a wonderful inconsistent mess of an episode but it was very entertaining for sure. It was too Hollywood-esque and didn't feel much like GOT. It's a very different show when you go back and look at the writing, acting, dialogue etc of older seasons. I suppose that's down to lack of source material and shifting the tone of the show to a wider TV audience.



Avengers will be coming in to help against Cersei at the very end of Ep 6. All remaining arcs are left hanging forever and nothing is resolved as they brought David Lindeloff in as head writer of Eps 4-6.


----------



## wankerness

People love to still trash him, but his finale for The Leftovers more than makes up for the Lost one. Unlike truly horrible screenwriters (Akiva Goldsman, for example) he actually learned from his mistakes, listened to feedback, and grew!


----------



## Drew

jaxadam said:


> I did not know that...


In the books, they're Others, not White Walkers, and if they have any sort of leader we haven't seen it yet. The names are pretty cosmetic, they're definitely a little less human looking in the books (taller, thinner, less wizened) but that's minor... But giving them a leader and a "major" bad guy is a pretty big departure, especially since it pretty much negates any possibility of the books ending in the same manner as the show, with respect to the Others...


PunkBillCarson said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It was certainly more tactical than anything anyone else has done. You don't get an army comprised of wights, White Walkers, a giant, and a dragon without some degree of planning. Not to mention, nearly every single time the NK has shown up, he's caught people with their pants down, merely adding to it. Still, I cannot believe the NK would fall for what he did.





Spoiler: still not convinced



Why not? The Night's King can create other White Walkers, and is both extremely hard to kill, and can raise dead. Combined, that gets you a team a White Walkers following you and an army of undead pretty quickly. Undead can kill giants, and giants can be raised, as we learned at Hardhome, so that gets you a bunch of undead giants pretty quickly too. And the dragon was just taken down with an ice javelin, which wasn't exactly a tactical triumph so much as a really good throw, and was raised the same as the dead men, giants, horses, and bears. Given the Night King's being hard to kill and a dangerous enough fighter, and able to raise the dead, it'd be more remarkable if he WASN'T at the head of a giant undead army than if he was. 

Really, the tactical decisions we've seen him make have mostly involved taking advantage of the fact that he has a mindless army that's already dead and isn't worried so much about drowning or burning.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

As someone who works in TV and film production, I would definitely praise this weeks' episode from a technical standpoint in the production and post-production. This episode might possibly go down as something incredibly notable in TV history.

With that said, I'm relieved to read that I'm not the only one who was experiencing issues with the image quality while watching the episode. I had to pause the episode and adjust the settings on my projector, which I have *never* had to do before. Also, is it just me or did the audio seem to be mixed incredibly low in post on the episode?

Regarding the Night King:


Spoiler



I am thoroughly disappointed at how this guy was played up to be this ultimate, unstoppable force of true evil for seven seasons...only to be killed off in less than an hour in a half...and by a single stab from a young girl. What a disappointment. But considering that the Night King doesn't even exist in the book series, I guess I can't really say that I held out much hope for the demise of his character to be spectacular. I mean, his creation/inception was also a thorough disappointment when viewers learned about it onscreen via Bran time-traveling with Bloodraven.



Regarding Samwell Tarley:


Spoiler



He advocated for the first two episode of this season that he wanted to fight. And he did absolutely nothing but snivel during the full episode. What a disappointment.

I also thought that Sam, Jon, or one of the other black brothers would at least present some of their battle strategies utilized at Castle Black and Eastwatch by the Sea. Example: covering the walls with oil to light on fire, or flinging barrels of oil onto wights so that a flaming arrow could light them up. But nope. This didn't happen.

GRRM is a fan of reader subversion. He would kill off your favorite character for no reason. No one was safe. Ned Stark was the first and prime example. No one was safe from being killed off because part of the underlying moral of the story of the ASOIAF series can be condensed down to: "war is hell". So why not kill Sam? He has been magically gifted such thick plot armor this season all of a sudden.



Regarding Beric Dondarrion:


Spoiler



It actually bummed me out that he finally died in this episode. But then again, Thoros of Myr wasn't around to revive him for the "19th time".

My issue with Beric is that he was a great plot device in the ASOIAF book series, and yet the TV series reduces him to nothing. In the book series, he died after his 7th time, in which he gave his life to revive Catelyn Stark (who became Lady Stoneheart) who joined the Brotherhood Without Banners before splitting off and leading her own factioned alliance. Does any of this exist in the TV series? Nope. But it plays a big role in the book series.

So many other characters should've died in that war at Winterfell. Jaime and Brienne were backed up against a wall by a horde of wights for Christ's sake. Thormund was literally left on his own against a horde. And what ever happened to Grey Worm? Or what ever happened to Podrick Payne?

When Jon was walking through Winterfell towards the end, all you see are named characters emerging from the carnage. Did no unnamed characters survive? Only the handful of names ones. Seems kind of fishy... Come on, writers...



Regarding the poor writing that is plaguing GOT:


Spoiler



Honestly, there isn't an excuse for how loose, sloppy, and messy the writing has gotten on the TV series.

With that said, keep in mind that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss who are the creators, execs, and showrunners have to sign off on final scripts, yet the two are literally so fucking rushed on this series. Like, when production starts, they have to handle production management (whatever isn't delegated to line producers or production managers). Then one of the two guys, or at least one of the writers, is ALWAYS present on-set over in Europe to supervise things. Then as soon as production for a season wraps, they are overseeing post-production (story, editing, audio, etc.) while simultaneously working on scripts for the next upcoming season, shuffling around writers, etc. They do all of this while concurrently handling your basic executive producer and showrunner duties, which include marketing, promotion, distribution, deliverables, etc. (Granted, HBO pretty much handles a solid chunk of the exec duties since the show has been owned and distributed exclusively by HBO for a decade with no intent of that ever changing. So that actually takes a lot off Weiss and Benioff's tables.) But my point here is, because the creators have *so much* going on constantly, it's easy to see how dumb, little details get overlooked or lost in the abyss of production. (Example: the ice dragon fire can annihilate walls, yet it is unable to scorch a mere piece of rubble that Jon Snow is ducking behind. Get the fuck out of here.)



Regarding Arya Stark:


Spoiler



I believe that Arya had to be the one to kill the Night King. Her entire story arc in the TV series is based on her defying the stereotypical "high-born lady" trope and instead training to become this skilled fighter and assassin. She trains with Syrio, she trains with Sandor Clegane (in a way with their journey together), she trains at the House of Black & White, etc. She is always training. The creators *had to* put all of that to use. Otherwise, her story arc would've been wasted.

Will she be this way in the books? We don't know yet. But she has been always training thus far in the book series. So it has to be leading up to something, even if it is not the slaying of some grand, ultimate antagonist since the Night King doesn't exist in the books.



Regarding Azor Ahai:


Spoiler



Is Arya Azor Ahai? Well, no. She doesn't match the description. Yet she still prevented The Great Darkness or The Long Night from coming again much like the original, mythical Azor Ahai did. Is Jon Snow Azor Ahai? Well, also no. He doesn't match the description. Is Daenarys Stormborn Azor Ahai? Possibly, but there would have to be a sacrifice involved to confirm.

There is a chapter in the book series where Thoros of Myr describes who or what Azor Ahai was. And then, Melisandre is pretty much the only other character who goes into detail about Azor Ahai, and she does so multiple times in the books.

A big issue here is that Azor Ahai was the name of this mythical warrior in Westeros; however, there have been several other similar "Azor Ahai type figures" referred to over in Essos, specifically east of the Bone Mountains. These figures include: Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. So in all reality, Azor Ahai may not even be a real, concrete person or thing even thought there is this concept or construction of who he was. Thus, there really isn't any sense in assuming and saying _"oh, Arya Stark is Azor Ahai"_ or _"oh, Jon Snow is Azor Ahai"_.

It seems like the TV series took the Azor Ahai prophecy and made it into a meaningless, empty plot device or catalyst that will ultimately amount to nothing.



Also, I'd just like to plug this Reddit thread here.

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bipfrd/spoilers_extended_the_show_has_finally_become_the/

If you got some time, expand/read *all* of the comments and replies. The criticism of the TV series seems pretty valid and well-deserved on the creators' and writers' parts.


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Regarding Beric Dondarrion:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It actually bummed me out that he finally died in this episode. But then again, Thoros of Myr wasn't around to revive him for the "19th time".
> 
> My issue with Beric is that he was a great plot device in the ASOIAF book series, and yet the TV series reduces him to nothing. In the book series, he died after his 7th time, in which he gave his life to revive Catelyn Stark (who became Lady Stoneheart) who joined the Brotherhood Without Banners before splitting off and leading her own factioned alliance. Does any of this exist in the TV series? Nope. But it plays a big role in the book series.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding Arya Stark:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that Arya had to be the one to kill the Night King. Her entire story arc in the TV series is based on her defying the stereotypical "high-born lady" trope and instead training to become this skilled fighter and assassin. She trains with Syrio, she trains with Sandor Clegane (in a way with their journey together), she trains at the House of Black & White, etc. She is always training. The creators HAD TO put all of that to use. Otherwise, her story arc would've been wasted.
> 
> Will she be this way in the books? We don't know yet. But she has been always training thus far in the book series. So it has to be leading up to even, even if it is not the slaying of some ultimate antagonist since the Night King doesn't exist in the books.



These two go hand in hand, I think. 


Spoiler



So, if Beric was repeatedly brought back in the show because the Lord of the Light wanted him to be there to save Arya to give her the chance to kill the Night's King, then that's pretty clearly not the case in the books, because one he dies to bring us Lady Stoneheart (who seems no longer human enough to give her life for Arya, but I suppose you never know), and two because there IS no Night's King, so Arya would have to kill a whole slew of Others before she could kill the army of the dead. 

I don't think GRRM has any particular scruples about snuffing out character arcs - see most of the Stark family - and Arya wanting revenge is a plausible enough reason on its own for her story arc. Idunno.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Ok, this cracked me up. 


Spoiler


----------



## diagrammatiks

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Ok, this cracked me up.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 68932
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 68933





Spoiler



Actually the best twist at this point would be the Cersei crushes them and wins everything


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Followed up with...


Spoiler


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

diagrammatiks said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the best twist at this point would be the Cersei crushes them and wins everything


I mean...


Spoiler



She knows how to "play the game" and has lost everything that she cares about in the process. Plus, you have to be cruel and cold-hearted to win at something like this, it seems.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I mean...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> She knows how to "play the game" and has lost everything that she cares about in the process. Plus, you have to be cruel and cold-hearted to win at something like this, it seems.





Spoiler: but she does care....



she's got an heir in the oven


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

This shit right here knocked it out of the park for me.



Spoiler


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This shit right here knocked it out of the park for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 68941




Agreed with pretty much everything there.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Ok, last one, I swear, guys. 


Spoiler


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Whoops. Wrong screencap. This was the one that I meant. 


Spoiler


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

PunkBillCarson said:


> Agreed with pretty much everything there.


A response to your response, sir.


Spoiler


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

And the great Cleganebowl. 


Spoiler










Every episode for the rest of the season now has to have a miraculous Arya one-shot kill out of nowhere.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Emperor Guillotine said:


> And the great Cleganebowl.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every episode for the rest of the season now has to have a miraculous Arya one-shot kill out of nowhere.





Spoiler



Queue Arya walking away from explosion toward camera....and scene.


----------



## mongey

Spoiler: sam



the biggest miss with Sam is I think It could have been a great story line if he was in the crypt and had to defend everyone from the stark zombies . way better than him fucking aorund in the battle


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Humorous, little video explaining how and why the writing on the show has gone to total shit.


----------



## wankerness

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Ok, last one, I swear, guys.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 68943



That is one tortured metaphor. If that episode were going to be compared to anything it would be overly dark, pixelated, badly framed, snow clouds obscuring everything, and often incoherent but with some occasional boring slow bits. So...to make it sexual, maybe like amateur Japanese porn filmed in the backseat of a car during a snowstorm.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

I’m so glad that the Night King battle is finally out of the way so that we can now focus on the real showdown that has been built up for eight seasons.

WHAT IS HYPE MAY NEVER DIE. 






On a related note...


----------



## wankerness

Clegane Bowl will probably be resolved by Arya stabbing the Mountain. The Hound will give her a thumbs up and half smile. Really, though, is the actor even going to be able to move in that ridiculous suit he has now enough to duel anyone?

Likewise, the conflict between Cersei and her brothers will be resolved by Arya stabbing her in the back while they stand around uselessly (if they even make it to her). This actually seems like it's what's going to happen based on that Melisandre dialogue.


Spoiler



I kind of love what happened with the Night King, tbh. Jon has been such a useless moron so consistently, especially in these battle episodes, that it was perfect that his showdown with the night king consisted of him being such a putz that he just stood there and waited for the night king to rez everyone, upon which he decided to fight wights instead of rush through them to stab the NK. So, even though the whole plot has been pointing at the ultimate showdown being between those two, what happened is kind of better.


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This shit right here knocked it out of the park for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 68941


I wouldn't put it quite so strongly, but I'd generally agree with this. 


Spoiler



I guess it helps that I reread the books in prep for season 8, and remembered all over how different they get than the series. I'd strongly agree that the book is veering towards the message that all of the political squabbles south of the wall don't matter compared to the thread of what's north of the wall. Heck, that's why Jon Snow as assassinated as Lord Commander, and in the books we don't even know for sure yet if he's going to be brought back, or even technically speaking if the attack was even fatal since it ends with him blacking out while being stabbed and then there's no independent confirmation of his death in A Dance With Dragons after that point. 

But, the show goes in a very different direction. By the end of Season 7 it was clear that the North would have to deal with the Night King early on and THEN turn to the Iron Throne. The series, and let's not forget it's called Game of Thrones and not A Song of Ice and Fire, has been building up to a fight to put _someone_ on the throne. The only real question was if they would succeed, and for plot reasons I figured they pretty much HAD to. 

Again, broken record... Zero problem with Arya and the one-shot kill. Jon did the same thing to a White Walker in Hardhome, and Sam at Craster's Keep. Getting cut with Valerian steel or dragonglass just causes them to shatter. 

Your post a few down - that's actually a not-impossible scenario, that the reason Winds of Winter hasn't yet been published is because he's waiting until _after _the TV series is finished, to then go and take it in a radically different direction.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of love what happened with the Night King, tbh. Jon has been such a useless moron so consistently, especially in these battle episodes, that it was perfect that his showdown with the night king consisted of him being such a putz that he just stood there and waited for the night king to rez everyone, upon which he decided to fight wights instead of rush through them to stab the NK. So, even though the whole plot has been pointing at the ultimate showdown being between those two, what happened is kind of better.


First, spoiler that!  



Spoiler: to a point, I do too



I mean, in theory, I agree. I like that Jon trying to do the heroic thing with a broadsword just simply didn't work, and honestly it kind of shows he still has some learning and some growing up to do. 

I just think having Arya be the one to do it was a copout. You can't have two seperate prophesies in the show and then throw both of them out the window. Super satisfying scene to watch in the moment, but it's a plot arc they didn't earn, IMO. Ditto with her and Sansa and Littlefinger - that still bothers me, because that twist only works because you never see the two sisters working together off screen, so in the moment you think Sansa is condeming Arya to death until at the last second she names Littlefinger. That's cheating.


----------



## wankerness

The arya sansa littlefinger thing is total BS. Some people were stretching it into something that preserved their characters as something other than morons (ie, it was all an act, with a couple of the scenes with no witnesses having weirder explanations), but then the writers gave an interview saying that nope, it really was them being as stupid as you think.

It's one of the worst plotlines in the entire show, it's horribly handled and really undermines both their characters. "Sansa is the smartest woman I've ever met," I guess you haven't met many women!


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> The arya sansa littlefinger thing is total BS. Some people were stretching it into something that preserved their characters as something other than morons (ie, it was all an act, with a couple of the scenes with no witnesses having weirder explanations), but then the writers gave an interview saying that nope, it really was them being as stupid as you think.
> 
> It's one of the worst plotlines in the entire show, it's horribly handled and really undermines both their characters. "Sansa is the smartest woman I've ever met," I guess you haven't met many women!


Ahh, that I didn't know - I remember reading theories at the time that their tension was an act because every tense showdown they were fighting in front of an audience, with someone there to observe them. At the time I thought that sounded like implausible bullshit, but then they turned on Littlefinger together. I kind of assumed it was supposed to be a joint teamwork sort of thing, but if the showrunners are saying Littlefinger HAD tricked them, until that last moment... That's dumb.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

One thing that has really bugged me about the latest episode aside from the piss-poor writing, the horrible visual problems (everyone all over the internet is raging about this), and the bad audio is the situation with Lyanna Mormont.



Spoiler



Ok, I get it. D&D were trying to be cutesy by having the physically smallest character face off against the physically largest character so that they could pass it off as saying: "Oh, this is us being deep, bro." But holy cow, the death of Lyanna Mormont is a trainwreck that gets worse the longer you look at it.

First, there were several giants in the wight army. Why does the episode only portray there being just one? (And it's not a case of "the audience only sees one". No. The way the event with the one giant charging through the doors of Winterfell is played up, the writers were clearly trying to communicate that: "There is only one giant. This is the one big, bad weapon of the wight army.") What happened to all of the other undead giants?

Second, why would the giant lift Lyanna Mormont to its face? WHY? It definitely wasn't going to eat her because wights don't eat. Ever. (Hello, they're dead!) If you catch a pest in your home like a cockroach or a mouse or a rat, do you grab the thing and lift it to your face as if to inspect it? No, you don't. You trap, kill, stomp, squish, do whatever to the damn thing. Come on...

Third, in the moment when Lyanna screams before being grabbed by the giant, the audience sees her holding a single-sided, dragonglass battle axe. IT IS CLEARLY A FUCKING BATTLE AXE. NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. And when the giant pulls her towards its face, the battle axe somehow magically is transformed into a sword that Lyanna stabs into the giant's left eye. IT IS CLEARLY A FUCKING SWORD. NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT.

So, you're going to tell me that all of the editors on the post-production team, the story producer (and any other producers present to view cuts), the director of the episode, and D&D (as the executive producers and showrunners) all did not even care to look at this glaring inconsistency and horrible editing of two takes with two obviously way different weapons?



Yeah, this just testifies that no one behind _Game of Thrones_ really gives a shit anymore.

(At least, the execs and post-production tedon't seem to care. The pre-production team and writers don't seem to care though. It's all a rushed job for them.) I'm sure that the production crew of locals shooting everything out in Europe do care.)


----------



## beerandbeards

Arya theme song....


----------



## Emperor Guillotine




----------



## Emperor Guillotine

I just finished watching Preston Jacobs' analysis of S8, E3 on YouTube. It's a bit silly and comical in delivery, but he points out so many issues with the episode, including a handful that some of you guys have already addressed in this thread. (And there are even more issues that he didn't touch on.)



I also just watched IdeaOfIceAndFire's review and critique of the episode on YouTube, and he just tears it a new asshole.



I'm sure RedTeamReview (another YouTuber who dissects GOT and ASOIAF) will toss his review and analysis up later at some point.

It seems like all of the Internet who actually *read the books*, and who don't fall into the mindless "YAAAS QUEEN ARYA!" fapping fanbase, are miserably disappointed with S8, E3 once the eye-candy wore off and the episode ended.

One other thing about the series that eats away at me is how they adapted (or should I say, DID NOT ADAPT) Euron, who is a major force in the book series. This video was also created by IdeasOfIceAndFire on YouTube.



On a related note, this video slayed. Appropriately titled too.


----------



## wankerness

What eyecandy? The only thing that looked good were the long static shots of the dragons above the clouds, and maybe that visual of the Dothraki lights.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

wankerness said:


> What eyecandy? The only thing that looked good were the long static shots of the dragons above the clouds, and maybe that visual of the Dothraki lights.


Obviously, you can't see shit for a solid chunk of the episode; but I was referring to like, the few sweeping shots of the battles, the static shots of the dragons, the dragon fire, etc. You know, the typical CGI stuff that sells and has the "most common denominator" of watchers and moviegoers sucked in and thinking: "OOOH!! AHHH!!"


----------



## Drew

My feelings here are complex.

On one hand, the show has clearly left the world of the books behind, and since the mid-to-end of season 7 hasn't even been trying, and is off doing its own theme. I have some big issues with that - broken record, you can't talk about two prophesies that long and then drop them under the rug.

On the other, whatever, I've made my peace with that and I'm fine just treating the end of the series as enjoyable television. Which it still is, for all its flaws. Even a hodge-podge finish to ASOIAF has a lot more thought to it than your typical TV writing. And, Episode 3 had a lot of GREAT scenes, even if there's some pretty strong reasons why those scenes shouldn't have happened.

At this point, I'm comfortable simultaneously believing both of those, that there are major plot issues present, but I'm also pretty cool just enjoying it for what it is.

One interesting thing I read recently though, which actually helps Jon's last scene in Ep 3 make a lot more sense:



Spoiler



So, Jon's last action moment before Arya kills off the Night King is you see him stand up from behind the wall, and inconceivably, he doesn't draw or lift the sword, he just screams. What the fuck is he thinking, trying to scream down a dead dragon?!

As it turns out, I guarantee no one in this thread caught this, and I certaintly didn't... but what he's yelling is "Go!!! Run! Run!" 

So, when he stands up, what's going on is _he's seen Arya, and he's trying to distract the dragon_. Does this make plot sense? I mean, sure, he's potentially sacrificing himself because he thinks Arya has a shot at actually killing the Night's King. But, at the same time, it's cheating in the same way that Sansa, Arya, and Littlefinger was cheating, because it explains _how_ Arya got there (Jon distracted the dragon, you see one of the white walkers' hair blow a bit in the next scene which is intended to signify the air moved as Arya sprints past them in the shadows, then in the next scene you see her jump the Night's King) but it only surprises the viewer because the viewer is intentionally being kept in the dark. Frankly, I'd have liked this a lot more if they just up and showed it, showed Jon spot Arya, they make eye contact for a second, he jumps up and distracts the dragon, she sprints, passes the White Walkers and is in the air flying at the Night's King before the White Walkers notice her, etc. Instead, they went for a cheap surprise, but left enough evidence to explain the surprise in subsequent viewings if you knew what to look for. So, Jon isn't as stupid as he looks, but since you can't actually hear him yelling it's awfully hard to tell that.


I'm not saying I LIKE it... but it works.


----------



## wankerness

That sorta reminds me of the aforementioned Sansa/Arya thing where fans desperately tried to construct some theory that would preserve them just not being written as idiots. Maybe the writers won't poke a hole in this one. Though IMO they don't have to, Jon has ALWAYS been a total dipshit guaranteed to do the dumbest possible thing. He's like one of those characters in a rom-com that creates the drama at the 2/3 mark that can only occur through them acting as stupid as humanly possible.

Speaking of, he's doing that right now by saying to Daenerys "hey, I'm the rightful ruler of the world" and getting interrupted before he can say "AND I DON'T CARE AND THINK YOU SHOULD BE QUEEN" just so we can continue having that drama there. Oh, and of course he doesn't bring it up again to clear the air, he just leaves it sitting there like a big fart in a closed room.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

So, IdeasOfIceAndFire did a follow-up video to his inital video where he analyzed S8, E3. And, oh boy, is he pissed and letting loose. 

I agree with him about E3 being so terrible (again, once the CGI "oh my god, big battle!" effect on the viewer wears off) and it's good that viewers, even the most hardcore mindless fanboys, are finally realizing just how fucking shitty the writing on GOT has been for years now.



@Drew: he also addresses your "Arya out of nowhere" statement.


----------



## AirForbes1

His review for episode 3 wasn't that great, but these are my favourite GoT reviews on YouTube


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

AirForbes1 said:


> His review for episode 3 wasn't that great, but these are my favourite GoT reviews on YouTube


I've never watched any of Ozzy Man's review videos, but that first half was fantastically hilarious. Holy hell.


----------



## AirForbes1

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I've never watched any of Ozzy Man's review videos, but that first half was fantastically hilarious. Holy hell.



Yeah, they are good. A bit of a breath of fresh air after the endless amount of break-down/speculation/theory videos out there. I'm not sure when he started doing them, I only found them after episode 2 this season. Of course, went back and watched the old ones.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

I agree with The Critical Drinker in that _Game of Thrones_ is increasingly pandering to feminism and "identity politics".


----------



## wankerness

Oh god let’s not contaminate another thread with that


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

This is an absolutely incredible analysis of S8, E3 and how much of a series-ruining failure it is. That episode literally gutted everything that ASOIAF/GOT is and stands for.



"Mongoloidic bumcheese" might be my new favorite insult.


----------



## beerandbeards

I don’t know about you guys but I like to have a couple bourbons, sit down with a suspension of disbelief and enjoy the show. I never read the books so I solely enjoy the show with the ignorance of not knowing... like Jon Snow


----------



## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> This is an absolutely incredible analysis of S8, E3 and how much of a series-ruining failure it is. That episode literally gutted everything that ASOIAF/GOT is and stands for.
> 
> 
> 
> "Mongoloidic bumcheese" might be my new favorite insult.




Man, hell on earth for me would be spending a meal at the same table as this guy. I agree with like 2 points that were annoying to me -- letting the dragon get swamped with the dead, and the unnecessary shots of major characters impossibly swarmed with dead and then unscathed. The rest of this is just bitching about suboptimal battle tactics, something that can be considered entirely separate from the quality of the episode.


----------



## diagrammatiks

beerandbeards said:


> I don’t know about you guys but I like to have a couple bourbons, sit down with a suspension of disbelief and enjoy the show. I never read the books so I solely enjoy the show with the ignorance of not knowing... like Jon Snow



If you were as dumb as Jon snow you could probably be happy watching paint dry.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

narad said:


> Man, hell on earth for me would be spending a meal at the same table as this guy. I agree with like 2 points that were annoying to me -- letting the dragon get swamped with the dead, and the unnecessary shots of major characters impossibly swarmed with dead and then unscathed. The rest of this is just bitching about suboptimal battle tactics, something that can be considered entirely separate from the quality of the episode.


The suboptimal battle tactics ARE PART OF THE EPISODE.

As someone who works in TV and film production and part of my job is writing...you see...I can attest that writers *have to* do this thing called "research" as part of the job. (If they are lucky enough to have a writer's assistant on the staff/team, then the assistant does the research and brings Cliffnotes of sorts to the writer.)

Let's say we took a battle from WWII, a real event that actually occurred, some _Saving Private Ryan_ type of shit, and instead of using tanks, one army decided to utilize reindeer and sleighs like they were all Santa Claus. Suboptimal battle tactics, right? It would still get them from Point A to Point B on the battlefield (hopefully); but nonetheless, suboptimal. And you could obviously tell that the writers hadn't done their research.

The general masses would probably lash out and accuse the writers of being lazy, misinformed, and "not doing their research" because the bullshit that came out painted an unrealistic portrayal of the events of WWII.

Same thing here with GOT S8, E3. The writers presented an unrealistic portrayal of military tactics (granted, it's within a fictional world), and thus, viewers were not able to suspend their disbelief, which is the purpose of fiction writing...to suspend disbelief for a bit...to get the audience/viewer/reader drawn in for a bit...to sell them the story...

This piss-poor writing did not sell. It was total, lazy, incoherent, unrealistic bullshit.


----------



## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The suboptimal battle tactics ARE PART OF THE EPISODE.



Suboptimal battle tactics are also things that might occur when the strategies are being developed by characters within that fictional world and not angry men from youtube.

I personally didn't find it surprising at all that the trebuchets were outside, given how much space their appears to be inside the walls:






Regarding the youtube guy's spazzing on when the trebuchets were used, given that we could hear the call to use and hold the trebuchets, it looked like their intended use was to break the dead lines immediately before the cavalry came upon them. Just because this did not fit random youtube guy's idea of how best to use these in battle doesn't mean it's poor writing. The same could be said for most of the military strategy aspects of the episode.

But you know, gotta be angry to get those subscribers.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

narad said:


> But you know, gotta be angry to get those subscribers.


Woohoo! Angry yelling!


----------



## Seabeast2000

Spoiler: Awesome episode-very sarcastic spoiler title



I am disappoint.
I am deeply disappoint.
Shame.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, great episode. Jon Snow continues to be the dumbest person in the seven kingdoms and I still rage out whenever I see Euron’s stupid face, but huge improvement from last episode. One big shock, too!


----------



## Seabeast2000

wankerness said:


> Yeah, great episode. Jon Snow continues to be the dumbest person in the seven kingdoms and I still rage out whenever I see Euron’s stupid face, but huge improvement from last episode. One big shock, too!





Spoiler



All protagonists are now safely as dumb as stumps, Jon might be just a little smarter. They all deserve to be killed off off-screen. Cancel eps 5 and 6. Destroy all copies.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

D&D just continue to further prove how fucking stupid they are as they continue to build shit up only to immediately tear it down a few minutes later in another scene.



Spoiler



- Daenarys gave Gendry an appointment in hopes that she would gain favor with the people as a ruler for doing so. Didn't work. But Gendry suddenly got very excited about his promotion to nowhere and went to tell Arya who shot him down. Built their romantic shit up only to tank it.

- Daenarys says that she wants things to go back to the way they were between her and Jon since, ya know, inter-familial breeding is common for Targarians but not for Starks. Jon makes it abundantly clear that he is pussywhipped. But then Daenarys _*immediately*_ goes ice-cold when the throne and succession become the topic of discussion. Built their romantic shit up only to tank it.

- Jamie and Brienne are finally together...ugh...for zero purpose And then Jaime was a total fucking dick to Brienne when he left, and he _*did not need to be*_. Built their romantic shit up only to tank it. (Please let Jaime kill Cersei and add "Queenslayer" to his list of titles.)

- Bronn magically teleported to Winterfell. The timeframe in which he arrived doesn't even make sense. (Seems like he arrived faster than Littlefinger did when Littlefinger had his fucking jetpack in Season 7.) How did Bronn know that a battle still wasn't raging? The conversation becomes incredibly tense, and then Bronn just immediately backs down over being offered the Tyrell's keep at Highgarden. Built that shit up only to tank it.Bronn magically teleported to Winterfell. The timeframe in which he arrived doesn't even make sense. How did he know that a battle still wasn't raging? The conversation becomes incredibly tense, and then Bronn just immediately backs down over being offered the Tyrell's keep at Highgarden. Built that shit up only to tank it.

- In the Godswood, Jon says that he will tell Sansa and Arya his secret only if they swear to never tell another soul. They don't even swear, and then Jon (after saying he will tell them) then orders Brann to tell them while he sits there like a fucking log. Built that shit up only to tank it.

- Varys and Tyrion discuss multiple ways of getting Jon on the throne since they acknowledge that the people like him more and Jon is more temperament and level-headed than Daenarys. Then, despite Tyrion's devotion to Daenarys, Varys suddenly voices that he wants to fucking "off/kill" Daenarys, and Tyrion seems troubled by the idea of treason but then gives in to considering it since he knows that Daenarys would never settle nor back down. Built that shit up only to tank it.

- All of the Dothraki and Unsullied were supposed to be dead. It was inferred and even explicitly said by D&D in the "behind the scenes" footage from the last episode. Why in the fuck are there suddenly a shit ton of Unsullied and some Dothraki again in this episode? Built up the demise of both breeds of fighters (the Dothraki with the flaming arakh charge and the Unsullied with protecting the retreat at Winterfell) only to tank it and have both breeds come back magically.

- The remaining Ironborn randomly kill Rhaegal the dragon out of nowhere. What the actual fuck? Built the dragons up as these massive powerhouses only to tank them. Two of the dragons have been killed with "one-shots" now.

- Another issue with related to the above point, why were the Ironborn even camped out at Dragonstone? How did they know that Daenarys would retreat there to bide time while someone else (Jon Snow) went off on land to gather troops from elsewhere? How long had they been camped out there? Seriously, how did the Ironborn know? Why were the Ironborn at fucking Dragonstone? You don't send fucking ships to sit at an abandoned castle and idly burn through supplies hoping that your enemy shows up.

- An entire ship sinks, and somehow, the Ironborn miraculously locate and abduct Missandei in one of their big fucking ships without anyone seeing or knowing? Ok, look, it's really hard to spot one specific person amidst an ocean that has a ton of other bodies swimming around in it. But to do it and not be seen? Wow... And then Daenarys suddenly magically figures out: "Oh well, Missandei is missing. She didn't drown or anything because it's not like we were in the ocean. So she must've been abducted by the Ironborn."

- The execution of Missandei literally is going to equate to nothing. She hasn't served any purpose at all for multiple seasons now. Killing her off was just a cheap, poor attempt to stir up an emotional response from viewers at the end. But her death is going to equate to nothing.



Just give us the Clegane Bowl and end this fucking series. Please, end it.


----------



## diagrammatiks

This is a bad show now.


----------



## wankerness

Dude, most of your "complaints" are listing what happened. Yes, they "built that shit up just to tank it." Because there's an emotional consequence there. I'm not saying they were all GOOD developments, but they were all developments. "Built that shit up only to go through with it so everyone is happy" is not necessarily a better outcome, even if you've phrased all of your ranting as if it would be.

But yeah, they're really hammering home this heel turn here too quickly, it kind of reminded me of the SW prequels with Anakin. Though I'm being reminded when I go through comments that


Spoiler



she's pretty much always been a vengeful dick if you look at what she did many times before (ex, CRUCIFYING HUNDREDS).


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

wankerness said:


> Though I'm being reminded when I go through comments that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> she's pretty much always been a vengeful dick if you look at what she did many times before (ex, CRUCIFYING HUNDREDS).





Spoiler



Yep, Daenarys has always teetered on this fine line of not "turning into her father" and living in the shadow of his insanity. She started out soft and subtle, but has gradually become worse and worse with her temper and her vengeful dick tactics like burning ships, crucifying hundreds of slavers, executing that one servant in Meereen who tried to betray her, executing two of the three remaining masters during the Battle of the Bastards episode, executing Samwell Tarley's father and brother via dragonfire, etc.

This kind of makes me question, from a moral standpoint, if she were allowed to rule, would she become _*worse*_ than her father? He was legitimately insane, but she isn't. She has more sense and the ability to think things through with more clarity. And yet, she is still making the choice to commit these horrible acts/executions out of vengeance that her father would've done out of insanity or paranoia.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Double post


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Did anyone else catch the Starbucks cup chilling in the episode?







Absolutely pathetic that no one caught that. Post-production team, editors, story producer, writer, showrunners/creators...NO ONE WHO VIEWED THE FINAL CUT CAUGHT THAT.

This is worse than the blunder with Jaime holding a coffee cup in one of the scenes from a few seasons ago.






Starbucks got a serious plug though.


----------



## jaxadam

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Did anyone else catch the Starbucks cup chilling in the episode?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely pathetic that no one caught that.



You didn't catch it, either. You just read about it a few minutes ago somewhere else online because that's the latest GOT trending.


----------



## Seabeast2000

That coffee cup definitely the only character that matters. It should sit on the Iron Throne.


----------



## MFB

Honestly, given the look of that photo, I thought that was just a behind the scenes photo that got taken out of context


----------



## Ebony

Episode 4: 



Spoiler



No twists, no surprises......just more fucking useless bullshit filler crap, more fanservice sexual tension, more Glamour-grade drama, more Bran sitting there and stalling the show-timeline without saying anything of substance, more direwolf self-sabotage, more drivel from Varys and Tyrion, more Bronn (which is just bad in itself) and more cheese and cringe courtesy of The Hound and Tormund.

The only two scenes I remotely enjoyed was seeing Rhaegal being shot down like a pigeon and Tormund telling Jon that he would enjoy going to "the real north" too and how Jon "has it in him".

At this point, a few minutes of a "third plot twist" scene involving Bran + *insert Night King 2.0-fodder here* in the last episode is the _only_ hope of repairing 10% of the damage done.

And I'm not sure I even care about that possibility, a new long night doesn't hold much weight anymore. Sure, we can apply TV logic and assume the new Night King may take precautions against being knifed by a lone assassin, but who am I kidding, we're not going to get anything like that.



It seems the fate of how the GOT-youtubers are going to make a living without patreons to fleece is literally a more intriguing story than how this show ends.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Ebony said:


> Episode 4:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> more direwolf self-sabotage





Spoiler



Ghost magically appears out of nowhere again...and doesn't do anything as expected...because he's just a clueless animal in the TV series. Yet in the books, he plays a larger role in Jon's story arc.

But Ghost magically appears out of nowhere, and he lost an ear. My boy lost an ear. 





Ebony said:


> It seems the fate of how the GOT-youtubers are going to make a living without patreons to fleece is literally a more intriguing story than how this show ends.


Indeed. They are out of books and out of TV episodes. I'm sure that some of the ASOIAF in-depth theory guys will continue generating content just fine though.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

MFB said:


> Honestly, given the look of that photo, I thought that was just a behind the scenes photo that got taken out of context


Nope. It's in the final episode cut that we all watched.

New York Times:
https://nypost.com/2019/05/06/games-of-thrones-accidentally-leaves-coffee-cup-in-episode/

Twitter:
https://twitter.com/zane/status/1125289538845327361


----------



## Ebony

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I'm sure that some of the ASOIAF in-depth theory guys will continue generating content just fine though.



Yes, probably indefinite, since R.R Martin is already living on borrowed time (70 years old and morbidly obese), and is not going to wrap up the story before he dies. It's funny how he finds that notion to be insulting, as if his fans should care more about him than his books, a hilariously naive platitude coming from a guy who's known for the opposite in his writing.


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> D&D just continue to further prove how fucking stupid they are as they continue to build shit up only to immediately tear it down a few minutes later in another scene.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> - Daenarys gave Gendry an appointment in hopes that she would gain favor with the people as a ruler for doing so. Didn't work. But Gendry suddenly got very excited about his promotion to nowhere and went to tell Arya who shot him down. Built their romantic shit up only to tank it.
> 
> - Daenarys says that she wants things to go back to the way they were between her and Jon since, ya know, inter-familial breeding is common for Targarians but not for Starks. Jon makes it abundantly clear that he is pussywhipped. But then Daenarys _*immediately*_ goes ice-cold when the throne and succession become the topic of discussion. Built their romantic shit up only to tank it.
> 
> - Jamie and Brienne are finally together...ugh...for zero purpose And then Jaime was a total fucking dick to Brienne when he left, and he _*did not need to be*_. Built their romantic shit up only to tank it. (Please let Jaime kill Cersei and add "Queenslayer" to his list of titles.)
> 
> - Bronn magically teleported to Winterfell. The timeframe in which he arrived doesn't even make sense. (Seems like he arrived faster than Littlefinger did when Littlefinger had his fucking jetpack in Season 7.) How did Bronn know that a battle still wasn't raging? The conversation becomes incredibly tense, and then Bronn just immediately backs down over being offered the Tyrell's keep at Highgarden. Built that shit up only to tank it.Bronn magically teleported to Winterfell. The timeframe in which he arrived doesn't even make sense. How did he know that a battle still wasn't raging? The conversation becomes incredibly tense, and then Bronn just immediately backs down over being offered the Tyrell's keep at Highgarden. Built that shit up only to tank it.
> 
> - In the Godswood, Jon says that he will tell Sansa and Arya his secret only if they swear to never tell another soul. They don't even swear, and then Jon (after saying he will tell them) then orders Brann to tell them while he sits there like a fucking log. Built that shit up only to tank it.
> 
> - Varys and Tyrion discuss multiple ways of getting Jon on the throne since they acknowledge that the people like him more and Jon is more temperament and level-headed than Daenarys. Then, despite Tyrion's devotion to Daenarys, Varys suddenly voices that he wants to fucking "off/kill" Daenarys, and Tyrion seems troubled by the idea of treason but then gives in to considering it since he knows that Daenarys would never settle nor back down. Built that shit up only to tank it.
> 
> - All of the Dothraki and Unsullied were supposed to be dead. It was inferred and even explicitly said by D&D in the "behind the scenes" footage from the last episode. Why in the fuck are there suddenly a shit ton of Unsullied and some Dothraki again in this episode? Built up the demise of both breeds of fighters (the Dothraki with the flaming arakh charge and the Unsullied with protecting the retreat at Winterfell) only to tank it and have both breeds come back magically.
> 
> - The remaining Ironborn randomly kill Rhaegal the dragon out of nowhere. What the actual fuck? Built the dragons up as these massive powerhouses only to tank them. Two of the dragons have been killed with "one-shots" now.
> 
> - Another issue with related to the above point, why were the Ironborn even camped out at Dragonstone? How did they know that Daenarys would retreat there to bide time while someone else (Jon Snow) went off on land to gather troops from elsewhere? How long had they been camped out there? Seriously, how did the Ironborn know? Why were the Ironborn at fucking Dragonstone? You don't send fucking ships to sit at an abandoned castle and idly burn through supplies hoping that your enemy shows up.
> 
> - An entire ship sinks, and somehow, the Ironborn miraculously locate and abduct Missandei in one of their big fucking ships without anyone seeing or knowing? Ok, look, it's really hard to spot one specific person amidst an ocean that has a ton of other bodies swimming around in it. But to do it and not be seen? Wow... And then Daenarys suddenly magically figures out: "Oh well, Missandei is missing. She didn't drown or anything because it's not like we were in the ocean. So she must've been abducted by the Ironborn."
> 
> - The execution of Missandei literally is going to equate to nothing. She hasn't served any purpose at all for multiple seasons now. Killing her off was just a cheap, poor attempt to stir up an emotional response from viewers at the end. But her death is going to equate to nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Just give us the Clegane Bowl and end this fucking series. Please, end it.



I've got my issues with the writing from the last couple seasons, and some of these I even agree with, but a lot of these are kind of bogus, IMO.



Spoiler



Killing off Rhaegon served no plot purpose other than evening the odds, Deus ex Machina style, before the battle to come (which looks a lot like it'll be next episode, meaning the finale should be a touchy-feely mopping up sort of affair). We already knew dragons were vulnerable to missiles thanks to Bronn and the Night's King, it's not like killing one more really did anything for the viewer's awareness. And the fact that the ships were able to see the dragons to launch a "surprise attack" dany and the dragons didn't see coming was dumb. But, one-shot? Please, they got like four bolts through Rhaegon before he went down, including one that ripped his throat apart. The more unbelievable part of that scene was they didn't manage to get a single shot into Drogon.

A whole bunch of the Unsullied led and protected the retreat into Winterfell. Her dothraki were decimated, but the Unsullied it was a lot less clear how many had actually died. I think the show could have done a better job at showing this to be fair, but I don't really agree with you here.

I don't think the location matters as much as the fact that the Ironborn correctly surmized part of the army would be coming by fleet, Dany and her dragons would be with them, and they ambushed her. My biggest issue with the Ironborn here was, as I mentioned, the fact somehow they got a jump on aereal surveillance, and the fact that inconceivably they are evidently aware that Dany and Jon won in the north, but seem completely clueless that Asha now holds the Iron Islands, unless I've missed something.

Missandei escaped in a skiff at Grey Worm's orders. Not too hard to believe they saw it, assumed it was someone important, and picked it up, while survivors swam to the shore.

I think the showrunners didn't know what to do with Bronn. He's been given a bounty on Jaime's head, so you can't leave him out in the wild, but at the same time you don't want him loosing crossbolt bolts at Jaime out of the blue either. I didn't love that choice either but it was a way to neutralize him.

Missandei's execution bothered me, but for different reasons. You have the showrunners set up this tension where Dany is potentially a crazed despot herself, wanting to take the Iron Throne at all costs because of "destiny," while Jon and her advisors are cautioning her to not kill all her subjects by burning the city to the ground. Great, is Dany mad or isn't she, interesting plot point. Then, in that exchange, you give her a reason so brutally personal to attack that even a kind, benevolent, defintely-not-Mad-Queen-Dany would want blood, completely undercutting that decision._ Why?_



End of the day, I don't really care because it's still entertaining television that I'm enjoying. It's just no longer the series GRRM started. 

Also, two observations that seem like they could be important - if this was still ASOIAF and not GoT I'd say they _would_ be important, but the show and the books are clearly in two different universes by now:



Spoiler: things to watch



If Euron isn't an idiot, he now knows Cersei's baby isn't his. Tyrion makes an impassioned plea to Cersei to step down and avoid a battle, for the life of her unborn child. The only way Tyrion can know Cersei is pregnant is if Jaime told him. Jaime left for Winterfell before Cersei slept with Euron, so for Jaime to know, Cersei must have been pregnant when Jaime went north. If this was ASOIAF I'd say that has major plot implications. For GoT, it's probably just sloppy writing.

Also, when Dany raised Gendry to Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End... It felt a little forced and she looked _awfully_ impressed with her own intelligence, which is normally the sort of thing that sets off your spidey sense in this series. Thinking a bit about the implications of this, though... If something were to happen to Jon, Dany, and Cersei, then the person with the best claim to the throne would be Genry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, and heir to Robert Baratheon. In fact, Gendry's claim is arguably stronger than Cersei's, an absent all else and any wars of conquest the person who should be on the Iron Throne today is arguably Gendry. Again, odds are as good this is sloppy writing as an important plot point, but you have to wonder if Dany realized that when she raised him.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Spoiler



I predict a "you lost your three children and now I've lost mine" Dany/Cersei interchange. I also predict I'm the 11,000th person to have thought of this.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Spoiler



-Getting Jaime/Brienne together was basically just tumblr fan service/pandering. First with the Gendry/Arya bullshit and now with Jaime/Brienne. Served no purpose plotwise.
-Bronn appearing out of nowhere served no purpose. Ok cool, let's show yet again that bronn is a mercenary through and through.  at least they managed to keep his character's motivations consistent unlike most of the main characters.
-Having the wildlings (and Tormund/Ghost) just slink back off past the wall feels like a sloppy way to tie up that particular loose end
- The ambush near dragonstone. Seriously? You're telling me nobody managed to spot a whole fleet with BRIGHT RED SQUIDS ON THEIR SAILS, including the one person who was flying hundreds of feet in the air?? There's no way they'd manage to hide an entire fleet, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, from Daenaerys' forces.





Spoiler: things to watch



If Euron isn't an idiot, he now knows Cersei's baby isn't his. Tyrion makes an impassioned plea to Cersei to step down and avoid a battle, for the life of her unborn child. The only way Tyrion can know Cersei is pregnant is if Jaime told him. Jaime left for Winterfell before Cersei slept with Euron, so for Jaime to know, Cersei must have been pregnant when Jaime went north. If this was ASOIAF I'd say that has major plot implications. For GoT, it's probably just sloppy writing.

Also, when Dany raised Gendry to Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End... It felt a little forced and she looked _awfully_ impressed with her own intelligence, which is normally the sort of thing that sets off your spidey sense in this series. Thinking a bit about the implications of this, though... If something were to happen to Jon, Dany, and Cersei, then the person with the best claim to the throne would be Genry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, and heir to Robert Baratheon. In fact, Gendry's claim is arguably stronger than Cersei's, an absent all else and any wars of conquest the person who should be on the Iron Throne today is arguably Gendry. Again, odds are as good this is sloppy writing as an important plot point, but you have to wonder if Dany realized that when she raised him.


[/QUOTE]
Cersei straight up told Jaime about the baby last season. Pretty sure she told tyrion at some point last season as well.


----------



## mongey

I am trying not to be too critical till I have seen it all and then given it a re watch. 

I have reservations but I just think they are going too fast and that is leading to sloppy writing.allot of the stuff that is happening makes sense. But the pace they are going at gives little time to actually let it percolate and grow. They have imposed a deadline on themselves and are cramming to fit it all in. 

Should have been 2 seasons. 1 for the night king and 1 for Cersei.


----------



## Seabeast2000

mongey said:


> I am trying not to be too critical till I have seen it all and then given it a re watch.
> 
> I have reservations but I just think they are going too fast and that is leading to sloppy writing.allot of the stuff that is happening makes sense. But the pace they are going at gives little time to actually let it percolate and grow. They have imposed a deadline on themselves and are cramming to fit it all in.
> 
> Should have been 2 seasons. 1 for the night king and 1 for Cersei.



Yes and we waited 2 years. They got a free year to make a boullion cube of shit.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Drew said:


> Also, two observations that seem like they could be important - if this was still ASOIAF and not GoT I'd say they _would_ be important, but the show and the books are clearly in two different universes by now:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: things to watch
> 
> 
> 
> If Euron isn't an idiot, he now knows Cersei's baby isn't his. Tyrion makes an impassioned plea to Cersei to step down and avoid a battle, for the life of her unborn child. The only way Tyrion can know Cersei is pregnant is if Jaime told him. Jaime left for Winterfell before Cersei slept with Euron, so for Jaime to know, Cersei must have been pregnant when Jaime went north. If this was ASOIAF I'd say that has major plot implications. For GoT, it's probably just sloppy writing.
> 
> Also, when Dany raised Gendry to Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End... It felt a little forced and she looked _awfully_ impressed with her own intelligence, which is normally the sort of thing that sets off your spidey sense in this series. Thinking a bit about the implications of this, though... If something were to happen to Jon, Dany, and Cersei, then the person with the best claim to the throne would be Genry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, and heir to Robert Baratheon. In fact, Gendry's claim is arguably stronger than Cersei's, an absent all else and any wars of conquest the person who should be on the Iron Throne today is arguably Gendry. Again, odds are as good this is sloppy writing as an important plot point, but you have to wonder if Dany realized that when she raised him.


I actually thought about both of these while I was watching the episode last night. I guess I'll take a stab at addressing them.

Euron:


Spoiler



Tyrion knew Cersei was pregnant last season before he headed north. Remember when the two of them were having that sitdown and he figured it out?

Tyrion and Jaime _*both*_ knew that Cersei was pregnant, and they _*both*_ left King's Landing to head north _*before*_ Euron slept with Cersei.

If Euron got her pregnant, there is no way that Tyrion and Jaime would've known. So I think that Euron will call her out on her shit since Tyrion said "oh hey, I know you're preggers!" right in front of all of them. That is...if Euron isn't a total idiot. But I'm willing to bet that D&D are going to overlook this, forget about it, and not even address it because they are such shitty writers.

That was the first thing that popped into my mind during Tyrion's exchange while looking up at Cersei atop the gate.



Gendry:


Spoiler



Daenarys acknowledged him as a "Baratheon" and promoted him to be the Lord of Storms End simply because she was trying to show everyone present in the hall of Winterfell that she was a "good ruler". She was trying to win their favor, and clearly she thought this was a slick way to do it, which is probably why Emilia Clarke looked so impressed at her own intelligence (or lack of). But her plan obviously didn't work. And as soon as she promoted Gendry, I immediately had to keep myself from screaming: "THAT IS GOING TO BACKFIRE ON YOU! HIS CLAIM IS STRONGER THAN YOURS OR CERSEI'S!"

As of right now, I'm not certain if it is sloppy writing because Genry's promotion was so intentionally done. And something could possibly happen that could pave the way for Gendry to take the throne. If so, then that would prove that D&D thought Gendry's promotion all the way through.

But if Gendry's promotion was just, like, an effort by Daenarys to win favor and simultaneously something to appease Gendry's character and tie-up his end (then he buggers off and we never hear from him again), or if the promotion presents a hole, then it would prove as just another example of D&D's sloppy writing.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

And we are now on Page 100.


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I actually thought about both of these while I was watching the episode last night. I guess I'll take a stab at addressing them.
> 
> Euron:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Tyrion knew Cersei was pregnant last season before he headed north. Remember when the two of them were having that sitdown and he figured it out?
> 
> Tyrion and Jaime _*both*_ knew that Cersei was pregnant, and they _*both*_ left King's Landing to head north _*before*_ Euron slept with Cersei.
> 
> If Euron got her pregnant, there is no way that Tyrion and Jaime would've known. So I think that Euron will call her out on her shit since Tyrion said "oh hey, I know you're preggers!" right in front of all of them. That is...if Euron isn't a total idiot. But I'm willing to bet that D&D are going to overlook this, forget about it, and not even address it because they are such shitty writers.
> 
> That was the first thing that popped into my mind during Tyrion's exchange while looking up at Cersei atop the gate.
> 
> 
> 
> Gendry:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Daenarys acknowledged him as a "Baratheon" and promoted him to be the Lord of Storms End simply because she was trying to show everyone present in the hall of Winterfell that she was a "good ruler". She was trying to win their favor, and clearly she thought this was a slick way to do it, which is probably why Emilia Clarke looked so impressed at her own intelligence (or lack of). But her plan obviously didn't work. And as soon as she promoted Gendry, I immediately had to keep myself from screaming: "THAT IS GOING TO BACKFIRE ON YOU! HIS CLAIM IS STRONGER THAN YOURS OR CERSEI'S!"
> 
> As of right now, I'm not certain if it is sloppy writing because Genry's promotion was so intentionally done. And something could possibly happen that could pave the way for Gendry to take the throne. If so, then that would prove that D&D thought Gendry's promotion all the way through.
> 
> But if Gendry's promotion was just, like, an effort by Daenarys to win favor and simultaneously something to appease Gendry's character and tie-up his end (then he buggers off and we never hear from him again), or if the promotion presents a hole, then it would prove as just another example of D&D's sloppy writing.


Euron - nothing to add, you and I are in agreement right down to the fact it probably won't matter. 

Gendry: 


Spoiler



The wrinkle is, while his claim is stronger, it only becomes so through _her_ claim. I.e. - if she isn't Queen, she has no authority to raise him. There's a couple ways that could be resolved and Bronn's speech about all families start from humble beginnings like his is pertinent here, and if enough people decide they want to follow Gendry that won't matter... But his most _realistic_ path to the throne is Dany dies and Jon doesn't want it. So, he's technically a threat... but only if Dany wins, at which point he has no claim at all.

That said, the scenario of Dany winning, Jon not wanting the throne, and stepping aside to allow Gendry to take the throne on the condition the North remains free and it becomes the Six Kingdoms is, IMO, the second most plausible outcome, behind the "never in a million years if this was ASOIAF, but since it's GoT things this obvious do happen" scenario of Jon ending up on the throne.


----------



## wankerness

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I actually thought about both of these while I was watching the episode last night. I guess I'll take a stab at addressing them.
> 
> Euron:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Tyrion knew Cersei was pregnant last season before he headed north. Remember when the two of them were having that sitdown and he figured it out?
> 
> Tyrion and Jaime _*both*_ knew that Cersei was pregnant, and they _*both*_ left King's Landing to head north _*before*_ Euron slept with Cersei.
> 
> If Euron got her pregnant, there is no way that Tyrion and Jaime would've known. So I think that Euron will call her out on her shit since Tyrion said "oh hey, I know you're preggers!" right in front of all of them. That is...if Euron isn't a total idiot. But I'm willing to bet that D&D are going to overlook this, forget about it, and not even address it because they are such shitty writers.
> 
> That was the first thing that popped into my mind during Tyrion's exchange while looking up at Cersei atop the gate.



I'm very sure this is what everyone was supposed to think, and that you're not finding some amazing writing oversight.


> Gendry:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Daenarys acknowledged him as a "Baratheon" and promoted him to be the Lord of Storms End simply because she was trying to show everyone present in the hall of Winterfell that she was a "good ruler". She was trying to win their favor, and clearly she thought this was a slick way to do it, which is probably why Emilia Clarke looked so impressed at her own intelligence (or lack of). But her plan obviously didn't work. And as soon as she promoted Gendry, I immediately had to keep myself from screaming: "THAT IS GOING TO BACKFIRE ON YOU! HIS CLAIM IS STRONGER THAN YOURS OR CERSEI'S!"
> 
> As of right now, I'm not certain if it is sloppy writing because Genry's promotion was so intentionally done. And something could possibly happen that could pave the way for Gendry to take the throne. If so, then that would prove that D&D thought Gendry's promotion all the way through.
> 
> But if Gendry's promotion was just, like, an effort by Daenarys to win favor and simultaneously something to appease Gendry's character and tie-up his end (then he buggers off and we never hear from him again), or if the promotion presents a hole, then it would prove as just another example of D&D's sloppy writing.



I REALLY don't follow you here. This complaint kind of reads to me as "if what I want to happen happens, it's good writing, if it doesn't IT IS TERRIBLE AND THEY ARE BAD WRITERS!!!" She tried a transparent move to curry favor, it looked desperate, it functioned as a contrast in how everyone thinks Jon is great and isn't impressed by her no matter what she tries, it led to


Spoiler



Gendry getting denied by Arya and her asserting her independence.


 Why does it HAVE to be more than that? He's a pretty useless character and for his ultimate arc to just kinda be plot development fodder for two main characters doesn't seem like a problem. IF that's the story. Who knows, maybe he'll leap out at the end and kill whoever the ultimate villains are with a triple corpse hammerblow.


----------



## mongey

do we need to do spoilers tags ? I kinda feel if you open a GoT thread without seeing the latest episode youre asking for it .there's no way Id do it 

they just a prick to do on a phone


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

wankerness said:


> triple corpse hammerblow.


New song title.

But anything is possible since D&D's take on GOT is now a world of "one-shot" kills.


----------



## wankerness

Emperor Guillotine said:


> New song title.
> 
> But anything is possible since D&D's take on GOT is now a world of "one-shot" kills.



It was a Children of Bodom song, it popped out of my memory when I was thinking of Gendry killing something with a hammer


----------



## Metropolis

mongey said:


> do we need to do spoilers tags ? I kinda feel if you open a GoT thread without seeing the latest episode youre asking for it .there's no way Id do it
> 
> they just a prick to do on a phone



No, because spoiler tags are annoying... I don't come and watch this thread before I've watched the latest episode every monday, because HBO Nordic.


----------



## wankerness

I don't get it either, but people (who had already seen the episode) recently told me to put them in a couple times recently. Whatever. It's not difficult on a keyboard. Kind of annoying on a phone though, yes.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> I REALLY don't follow you here. This complaint kind of reads to me as "if what I want to happen happens, it's good writing, if it doesn't IT IS TERRIBLE AND THEY ARE BAD WRITERS!!!"


I wouldn't go that far.... But, that's the kind of setup that, in a GRRM book, would absolutely NOT be a coincidence. The whole L+R=J thing was based on far more circumspect evidence than that, the fact that...


Spoiler



Genry now has a stronger claim to the throne than Cersei


...wouldn't just happen by accident in a GRRM book, nor would the fact that this could become a legit thread to Dany, in a universe where characters are so often brought down by their own tragic flaws.

In the show? eh, it's probably as simple as you say it is. That's only sloppy writing by comparison, and is the thing that I think most viewers wouldn't even _think_ about, had ASOIAF not already spawned a whole cottage industry dedicated to figuring out theories of how the books would end.

It is what it is. The orchestration of the plot has absolutely fallen off starting at least at the end of season 7... but it's still super enjoyable viewing.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The show has had some very dodgy writing since S3/4 and really went downhill by S5, enough to make me stop watching until a few months ago. I'm surprised it's only reaching a boiling point now with the general audience. With 2 episodes left I can see a lot of people being disappointed. It will probably end on a big twist and that will sastify most of the audience regardless of loose ends or plot holes but the big dip this season will leave a sour memory for a lot of viewers.

The camera costantly right up in Dany and Sansa's face in Winterfell just to make sure we know they are unhappy is spoonfeeding at its worst. The Euron scene was awesome though. I don't mind if the rest of the season is a mess as long as we get visual spectacles like that.


----------



## Drew

Lorcan Ward said:


> The show has had some very dodgy writing since S3/4 and really went downhill by S5, enough to make me stop watching until a few months ago.


I think through 5 it wasn't _bad_ writing, per se, so much as it was just VERY different from the books in places, but I was willing to go with it figuring it was in the interest of simplifying a very convoluted and complex storyline and that the changes would make sense in the end. Basically, I took it on faith that they knew what they were doing. 

I'd say by late 7 it was awfully hard to do that. Some things - Hodor - were handled _brilliantly _(I'm still not over that), others - I've ranted at length about Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger, and the whole mission to the north to capture a wight was kinda dumb too - not so much. As we're getting towards the end, though it's increasingly obvious that the showrunners aren't really trying to tell the story of the books, and are off in their own world. 

Which, whatever, it's still fun, and I'm enjoying this season and looking forward to the final two episodes. It's just not A Song of Ice and Fire.


----------



## Xaios

At this point, as a general statement I'd say that Game of Thrones is, at least in part, a victim of its own success, as well as other circumstances. The writing staff on the show are not on the same level as Martin, that can't be denied. However, I imagine that all parties involved, Martin included, probably made the original licensing deal under the assumption that at least one more book would have been published in the intervening time. Instead, they were left holding the bag to write the last few seasons with nothing more than an outline of how the series was supposed to go, and so probably pushed a little too hard to tidy things up into a nice little bow and wrap up various threads, without real guidance. At the end of the day, if Martin actually gave a damn at this point about the show's ability to follow his story outline, he would have given them more to work with (e.g. finished the 6th book at least), but that's assuming he's even capable of doing so. Where we are now, I think it's more than baseless speculation to think that the guy just doesn't seem to have anything more in the tank, given how many times he's delayed and gone off to work on other projects (fans of The Kingkiller Chronicles know exactly what I'm talking about).

So yeah, the plot writing has definitely gotten blunt (although, mercifully, the dialogue is still reasonably sharp). Let's not also forget though, A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons have also received their share of derision for shoddy writing (deserved or not). Those were not only written by Martin, but one of them also came out several years prior to the release of the show while the other came out right after the first season. Personally I still like them, but they aren't on the same level as A Storm of Swords and, honestly, if the books couldn't maintain the same level of quality as before, no one should be surprised that the show couldn't either. Considering how ultimately little happens in those books, I think they did the best with what they had.

I guess my point is that HBO aren't the only ones to blame for the decline of the show. While the quality of the execution has suffered and they certainly deserve to be taken to task for putting themselves in the position to be steering a rudderless ship, it all ultimately stems from Martin. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of the things happening the way they did in the show...


Spoiler



...such as the exclusion of the Lady Stoneheart plot arc


...are also indicative of how little payoff there would be for those arcs in the last 2 books, assuming they're ever even published. At this point though, it also wouldn't surprise me if Martin sandbagged finishing the books intentionally because he couldn't figure out how, and so instead opted to gauge the audience reaction to whatever the showrunners came up with so that he would know, "okay, do that" or (as might very well be the case here) "okay, don't do that."


----------



## PunkBillCarson

^Dear God, please don't remind me of that fuckhead Rothfuss… Rothfuss and Martin are EXACTLY why I started buying series' that were already completed, the exception of course, being Brandon Sanderson. I'm holding out hope for him, but him being in his early forties with 7 more Stormlight books to go (and they all average over a thousand pages apiece going by the first three) I'm a little worried there, especially considering that I don't think he's done with Elantris, Warbreaker, and might not be completely done with Mistborn. He's also hinted at a possible crossover at some point:



Spoiler: Only read if you've been reading Sanderson



Which has already kind of happened with Vasher from Warbreaker being Zahel and Hoid appearing in the series in different forms.


----------



## Xaios

PunkBillCarson said:


> ^Dear God, please don't remind me of that fuckhead Rothfuss… Rothfuss and Martin are EXACTLY why I started buying series' that were already completed, the exception of course, being Brandon Sanderson. I'm holding out hope for him, but him being in his early forties with 7 more Stormlight books to go (and they all average over a thousand pages apiece going by the first three) I'm a little worried there, especially considering that I don't think he's done with Elantris, Warbreaker, and might not be completely done with Mistborn.


At this point, the only way I think Sanderson would stop is if he burned out completely. The guy is an unbelievably prolific writing _machine_.

Unfortunately Martin and Rothfuss might as well be doing an SSO group run based on how much they've stalled out.


----------



## sighval

As for the latest episode, I'll just leave it here.


----------



## ramses

Xaios said:


> At this point though, it also wouldn't surprise me if Martin sandbagged finishing the books intentionally because he couldn't figure out how, and so instead opted to gauge the audience reaction to whatever the showrunners came up with so that he would know, "okay, do that" or (as might very well be the case here) "okay, don't do that."




Yup.

/thr3ad


I'll still finish watching the remaining episodes, though. Whatever. I can practice classical guitar at the same time I watch GOT.


----------



## gnoll

I don't really understand how this show is #3 on the imdb top rated tv list.

I think it's okay, or maybe even good. But not that good... It was pretty good somewhere in the middle, and every once in a while some cool shit happened, but it always seemed to suffer from only some of the plots/characters being interesting, and others being kinda dull. And this last season, ehhhh Idk...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

sighval said:


> As for the latest episode, I'll just leave it here.



lmao, that vid was perfect.


----------



## Xaios

gnoll said:


> I don't really understand how this show is #3 on the imdb top rated tv list.
> 
> I think it's okay, or maybe even good. But not that good... It was pretty good somewhere in the middle, and every once in a while some cool shit happened, but it always seemed to suffer from only some of the plots/characters being interesting, and others being kinda dull. And this last season, ehhhh Idk...


A combination of timing, fanboy culture... and the fact that it does occasionally display moments of actual greatness.

Timing, because when it first came out, nothing like it had ever been made before. A television show that combined political intrigue and very risque subject matter (let's not forget the scene that ends the very first episode, of a guy trying to murder a child after being caught fucking his sister) with a low fantasy setting and eldritch evil? Maybe it doesn't seem especially outlandish now because the popularity of similar works has absolutely exploded in the time since, but in 2011, it was _mind-blowing_ that this was on television at all.

Fanboy culture, because... yeah, I don't think that one needs explanation.

And yes, this show, despite apparently having run out of gas towards the end (not that 8 seasons isn't still a pretty damn good run, and there are relatively *very* few shows throughout television history that really ended strong), it gave us a shitton of great moments:
- Execution of Ned Stark
- Battle of the Blackwater
- The Red Wedding
- Cutting off Jaime's hand
- Battle of Hardhome
- Battle of the Bastards
- The duel between Oberyn and the Mountain
- Danaerys attacking the Lannister convoy
- Hodor hodoring
- Ramsey torturing Theon
- Murder of Jon Snow
- Arya's verbal sparring with Tywin
- The Purple Wedding
- Stannis burns Shireen (Unpleasant to watch, sure, but still powerful as well)
- Blowing up the Sept of Baelor
- Olenna telling Jaime she poisoned Joffrey (although, really, every scene with her qualifies)


----------



## Drew

Xaios said:


> And yes, this show, despite apparently having run out of gas towards the end (not that 8 seasons isn't still a pretty damn good run, and there are relatively *very* few shows throughout television history that really ended strong), it gave us a shitton of great moments


Yeah, this, really. Honestly, Season 8 has some writing flaws, but it's still full of great dialogue, great acting, and some pretty spectacular action sequences. It's rare for shows to START this strong, much less finish this strong, even if it represents a decline from the show at it's peak. 

And, years down the road, it's hard to remember just how shocking some of these developments were. I'd read the books so I knew what to expect, and I hadn't started watching the show at the time, but I remember chuckling at the collective meltdown I saw happening on Facebook one morning and realizing the show must have caught up to the Red Wedding. This is worth a watch as a refresher: 



There aren't too many TV shows I can think of who've ever pulled off such a gut-punch to their viewers. And, personally, I thought Hodor's story was worse, I'm _still_ not over that.


----------



## wankerness

I didn't react to Hodor getting killed at all, people tell me that makes me a monster. I guess I can't get teary when ridiculous partially cgi'd wall climbing zombies are involved.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

the only death that actually bothered me was wunwun.


----------



## Xaios

Drew said:


> It's rare for shows to START this strong, much less finish this strong, even if it represents a decline from the show at it's peak.


Exactly. Has GoT declined over its past few seasons? Certainly. However, it tends to receive way more than its share of criticism when it falters specifically because it has been so good. Game of Thrones at its very worst is still leagues beyond most of the other shit on television. Because it's a television phenomenon though, expectations always grow higher and higher, and I don't think there's a television production company in existence that could produce a show like this that's just as good in its _8th season _as prior.


wankerness said:


> I didn't react to Hodor getting killed at all, people tell me that makes me a monster. I guess I can't get teary when ridiculous partially cgi'd wall climbing zombies are involved.


You, sir, are as soulless as the CGI zombies that killed Hodor.


----------



## wankerness

Pff. I very nearly cried like a big dumb homo at the last episode of Better Things!


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Xaios said:


> And yes, this show, despite apparently having run out of gas towards the end (not that 8 seasons isn't still a pretty damn good run, and there are relatively *very* few shows throughout television history that really ended strong), it gave us a shitton of great moments.


^ This.



Xaios said:


> - Hodor hodoring


Pause. Pouring one out for the homie.


----------



## mongey

Well I liked it. Best episode this season by far.


----------



## Seabeast2000

mongey said:


> Well I liked it. Best episode this season by far.


I had to break half way through but even that is more coherent that the first 4 eps.


----------



## bouVIP

I also enjoyed this episode. Just a shame how we got here was because of all these dumb mistakes and decisions characters made that seemed out of character...



Spoiler



Didn't really get the point of Arya's pov though...seemed really unnecessary


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Spoiler tag not working... EDITED THIS MESSAGE FOR CONTENT. MY NEXT POST CONTAINS SPOILERS BELOW!


----------



## PunkBillCarson

SPOILERS BELOW, BECAUSE SPOILER TAG ISN'T WORKING FOR ME FOR SOME REASON! DO NOT READ AHEAD IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!















...but somehow Daenerys has become the absolute biggest cunt in this entire series in just an hour and thirty, and believe me it's not like she's been without some competition. For whatever their flaws, Ramsey, Joffrey, Cersei and the rest of the assholes don't come close to what this bitch has just done. Bravo, because now she just needs to be killed and ASAP. Still would have preferred if the NK had ended up being the ultimate big bad, but now we see that as dangerous as Cersei ever was, she NEVER came close to this, even with the wildfire shit she pulled awhile back. Merciless slaughter that went beyond soldiers, to civilians including children. I will rejoice when this bitch dies.


----------



## narad

bouVIP said:


> I also enjoyed this episode. Just a shame how we got here was because of all these dumb mistakes and decisions characters made that seemed out of character...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't really get the point of Arya's pov though...seemed really unnecessary





Spoiler



Probably because she's going to be unwavering in her stance against Dany now. Without her pov of the massacre, Jon would have been like... "it's not great but...she's my queen...I think...", but now he'll actually have to make a decision.


----------



## jaxadam

I thought it was the worst episode of the entire show.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Spoiler



Welp I had a feeling Dany was going to lose her shit and burn civvies. I was right. The gore in this episode was great at least, and seeing the Golden Company get completely decimated was kind of a waste. Arya's perspective was a complete waste of time/filler. At this point in the show I wouldn't have cared if she'd been crushed by boulders in the red keep. Clegane Bowl was a nice distraction from watching people scream/get set on fire for the whole episode. I liked Euron's little quip about being the man that killed Jaime Lannister. \
Definitely a way better episode than the previous one.


----------



## wankerness

I...still don’t quite know what I think, but I definitely liked it a hell of a lot more than the Battle of Winterfell. 



Spoiler



After initial “omg they just nullified Jamie, character arc fail!!” I realized that it was actually kinda truer to the character (and to real life with toxic relationships!!) and think now I like it. After initial “huh?” on Daenerys, I thought back to her exchange with Jon at the beginning and realized “oh, this was completely telegraphed and also makes sense going back in the series.” She has no way of holding any control over the kingdoms other than fear, so she has to do something that will rather unquestionably scare the shit out of everyone. I liked her in this episode, and liked Emilia Clarke’s acting much more than usual.

I liked that the regular soldiers and Grey Worm went all Mai Lai instead of behaving like they were honorable automatons like we’ve seen. 

The biggest sticking points for me were some terrible dialogue and the Euron scene. And most of all, that ponderous ending with Arya and the inexplicably calm horse in SUPER slow motion.

Great effects this time, all that dragon destruction was pretty awesome.


----------



## Drew

PunkBillCarson said:


> SPOILERS BELOW, BECAUSE SPOILER TAG ISN'T WORKING FOR ME FOR SOME REASON! DO NOT READ AHEAD IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!


First, your spoilers aren't working because your text is outside them. Treade these squiggles for the hard brackets, but the form is {spoiler}PunkBillCarson is bad at spoilertags!{/spoiler}

Second, I don't agree.


Spoiler: Dany's arc makes a lot of sense to me



This didn't come of nowhere. Rather, we as readers/viewers were just paying attention to the wrong things, so we missed something that was a LONG time in the making.

Dany has always been weirdly cool about burning enemies alive. In rough order:

*her lack of reaction to her brother's "coronation."
*burning the witch who killed her unborn baby and Khal Drogo, on top of Drogo's funeral pyre
*the necromanceers in the Houses of the Dead
* the slaver who "bought" Drogon, when she then turned the Unsullied and her dragons on the slavers
*all the other Khals in that tent she locked the doors on and torched, forget if that happened in the books as well and I think maybe it didn't
*The Tarlys, both father and when he volenteered son, essentially wiping out the house (Sam had taken the black) for refusing to bend the knee

By the time she condems Varys to death, she's already burnt a LOT of enemies to a crisp, the only difference being that up to Tarlys we think they "deserved it," and it's only then where we as viewers/readers start to wonder, "hey, maybe that was a little excessive" when she executes someone by burning them alive. Varys is complicated, she has her reasons but so does he, and his major concern was she WAS going to burn King's Landing to the ground. When she then snaps, loses her temper, and decides that even though the army surrendered she's still going to raze King's Landing to the ground, no matter how many innocents she kills.... I mean, it's not like it's entirely out of character.

Only remaining questions for me are if Arya can get to her (and survive the dragon, if she succeeds), and what Jon will do when he has to choose between his sister and his Mad Queen.



Hands down, though, the best episode of the season. I only have a few minor quibbles.


Spoiler



*Why even bother with the Golden Company, if we're going to introduce them, let Harry Strickland make some creepy faces, and then BBQ them on the front lawn before the castle gates?
*Cersei and Jaime's end was actually rather fitting... but, that was a third ignored prophecy
*semi-relatedly, the fact Jaime even managed to make it to Cersei after his fight with Euron stretches credibility a little, but whatever
*while the END of Cleganebowl was great, the start was mostly a dramatic background and swords splitting rocks.



Also, I hear alleged spoilers of how the series will end have leaked. Let's keep them out of this thread.

Final non-spoiler-y comment - a lot of the cinematography on this was _immaculate_. Particularly the very end, with the falling ash. This looks a lot like the episode they're planning to put in for awards season.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Drew said:


> First, your spoilers aren't working because your text is outside them. Treade these squiggles for the hard brackets, but the form is {spoiler}PunkBillCarson is bad at spoilertags!{/spoiler}
> 
> Second, I don't agree.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Dany's arc makes a lot of sense to me
> 
> 
> 
> This didn't come of nowhere. Rather, we as readers/viewers were just paying attention to the wrong things, so we missed something that was a LONG time in the making.
> 
> Dany has always been weirdly cool about burning enemies alive. In rough order:
> 
> *her lack of reaction to her brother's "coronation."
> *burning the witch who killed her unborn baby and Khal Drogo, on top of Drogo's funeral pyre
> *the necromanceers in the Houses of the Dead
> * the slaver who "bought" Drogon, when she then turned the Unsullied and her dragons on the slavers
> *all the other Khals in that tent she locked the doors on and torched, forget if that happened in the books as well and I think maybe it didn't
> *The Tarlys, both father and when he volenteered son, essentially wiping out the house (Sam had taken the black) for refusing to bend the knee
> 
> By the time she condems Varys to death, she's already burnt a LOT of enemies to a crisp, the only difference being that up to Tarlys we think they "deserved it," and it's only then where we as viewers/readers start to wonder, "hey, maybe that was a little excessive" when she executes someone by burning them alive. Varys is complicated, she has her reasons but so does he, and his major concern was she WAS going to burn King's Landing to the ground. When she then snaps, loses her temper, and decides that even though the army surrendered she's still going to raze King's Landing to the ground, no matter how many innocents she kills.... I mean, it's not like it's entirely out of character.
> 
> Only remaining questions for me are if Arya can get to her (and survive the dragon, if she succeeds), and what Jon will do when he has to choose between his sister and his Mad Queen.
> 
> 
> 
> Hands down, though, the best episode of the season. I only have a few minor quibbles.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> *Why even bother with the Golden Company, if we're going to introduce them, let Harry Strickland make some creepy faces, and then BBQ them on the front lawn before the castle gates?
> *Cersei and Jaime's end was actually rather fitting... but, that was a third ignored prophecy
> *semi-relatedly, the fact Jaime even managed to make it to Cersei after his fight with Euron stretches credibility a little, but whatever
> *while the END of Cleganebowl was great, the start was mostly a dramatic background and swords splitting rocks.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I hear alleged spoilers of how the series will end have leaked. Let's keep them out of this thread.
> 
> Final non-spoiler-y comment - a lot of the cinematography on this was _immaculate_. Particularly the very end, with the falling ash. This looks a lot like the episode they're planning to put in for awards season.






Spoiler: I'm saying



That she reached new heights though. Yeah, she's been a bit of a bitch before, but this took it to a whole new level. I'm curious to see what happens next but surely Jon wouldn't stand for this and even if he does or doesn't, well he might have to die a second time. What I want to know is, suppose he doesn't and Dany does end up dying. Who's going to kill Drogon? I mean if Bran is still around, is he strong enough to warg into Drogon to allow him to be killed?


----------



## Drew

PunkBillCarson said:


> Spoiler: I'm saying
> 
> 
> 
> That she reached new heights though. Yeah, she's been a bit of a bitch before, but this took it to a whole new level. I'm curious to see what happens next but surely Jon wouldn't stand for this and even if he does or doesn't, well he might have to die a second time. What I want to know is, suppose he doesn't and Dany does end up dying. Who's going to kill Drogon? I mean if Bran is still around, is he strong enough to warg into Drogon to allow him to be killed?





Spoiler



No clue, and that's definitely going to be a major issue for every single character who _isn't_ Dany next week. But, my major point here, is that the books and show have been gradually painting Dany as someone who will have no hesitation burning people alive if she believes it's justified since the very first book and first season, so her burning King's Landing to the ground because she believes that's what it'll take to cement her rule, and it's more merciful in the long run to kill a whole lot of people now with dragonfire, is perfectly in character.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Drew said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> No clue, and that's definitely going to be a major issue for every single character who _isn't_ Dany next week. But, my major point here, is that the books and show have been gradually painting Dany as someone who will have no hesitation burning people alive if she believes it's justified since the very first book and first season, so her burning King's Landing to the ground because she believes that's what it'll take to cement her rule, and it's more merciful in the long run to kill a whole lot of people now with dragonfire, is perfectly in character.






Spoiler: True, but



You have to think, she at least had some good to her name with having freed slaves and keeping her army from raping the natives when she went to liberate a new city. Not that it makes what she's done right, but perhaps a little bit of a counterbalance to the person she's been. She wasn't just a woman using animals for her own gain, she was using them to help others who needed it and now there is certainly no way to come to any kind of defense for her. It may be in character for her, when it comes to death count? She's really beginning to perhaps be the only one who can touch the NK in terms of sheer brutality. The ironic part about this or maybe that isn't even the right word is that this episode arguably showed the greatest part of humanity in Cersei or at the very least showed her to be far more vulnerable and less cruel and exposed people like Dany and Grey Worm at their absolute worst.


----------



## wankerness

Drew said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> By the time she condems Varys to death, she's already burnt a LOT of enemies to a crisp, the only difference being that up to Tarlys we think they "deserved it," and it's only then where we as viewers/readers start to wonder, "hey, maybe that was a little excessive" when she executes someone by burning them alive. Varys is complicated, she has her reasons but so does he, and his major concern was she WAS going to burn King's Landing to the ground. When she then snaps, loses her temper, and decides that even though the army surrendered she's still going to raze King's Landing to the ground, no matter how many innocents she kills.... I mean, it's not like it's entirely out of character.
> 
> Only remaining questions for me are if Arya can get to her (and survive the dragon, if she succeeds), and what Jon will do when he has to choose between his sister and his Mad Queen.
> 
> 
> 
> Hands down, though, the best episode of the season. I only have a few minor quibbles.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> *Why even bother with the Golden Company, if we're going to introduce them, let Harry Strickland make some creepy faces, and then BBQ them on the front lawn before the castle gates?
> *Cersei and Jaime's end was actually rather fitting... but, that was a third ignored prophecy
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I hear alleged spoilers of how the series will end have leaked. Let's keep them out of this thread.
> 
> Final non-spoiler-y comment - a lot of the cinematography on this was _immaculate_. Particularly the very end, with the falling ash. This looks a lot like the episode they're planning to put in for awards season.



Why bother with them? Cause it was funny what happened to them! Also kinda showed how much force we were dealing with.

How was that an ignored prophecy? There is another very important character with the same eye color!

This episode looked GREAT and was mostly directed quite well, it's a shocker after how horribly the Winterfell ep was directed by the same guy.

All the crying on the internet about how this is the worst show ever now is kind of putting me on team Dany for the first time ever. I wish she was real and could burn THEM.

I wonder how much overlap there is between these whiners and people that named their kid Khaleesi/Daenerys, though? That may be the name most-changed in the next few months. I hope that's a statistic that can be viewed.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> Why bother with them? Cause it was funny what happened to them! Also kinda showed how much force we were dealing with.
> 
> How was that an ignored prophecy? There is another very important character with the same eye color!
> 
> This episode looked GREAT and was mostly directed quite well, it's a shocker after how horribly the Winterfell ep was directed by the same guy.
> 
> All the crying on the internet about how this is the worst show ever now is kind of putting me on team Dany for the first time ever. I wish she was real and could burn THEM.
> 
> I wonder how much overlap there is between these whiners and people that named their kid Khaleesi/Daenerys, though? That may be the name most-changed in the next few months. I hope that's a statistic that can be viewed.


Hey, fix my spoiler tags in your quote! 



Spoiler



The two prophecies were the Azor Ahai pprophecy and the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, both of whom were suspected to point to the same person, who would save Westeros from the long night. And both definitely didn't point to Arya. It's since been pointed out that technically Cersei did die with Jaime/her little brother's hands around her neck so that may still have come to pass. The other two were summarily tossed out the window and no one in the show's universe seems to be giving a second thought to it.

I don't think the "blue eyes" thing Melisandre said points to Dany. Melisandre was SUPER pointed about emphasizing _blue _eyes, in the scene right before Arya goes off to kill the night's king, and in the books Dany's eyes were violet. They were supposed to be violet for the show too and Emilia Clarke was supposed to wear colored contacts, but they fucked with her ability to see so much that they ended up deciding to forego them and just leave her eyes her natural blue color. So, yes, her eyes ARE blue in the show... but that wasn't by design.



Re: the baby names - me too. 



PunkBillCarson said:


> Spoiler: True, but
> 
> 
> 
> You have to think, she at least had some good to her name with having freed slaves and keeping her army from raping the natives when she went to liberate a new city. Not that it makes what she's done right, but perhaps a little bit of a counterbalance to the person she's been. She wasn't just a woman using animals for her own gain, she was using them to help others who needed it and now there is certainly no way to come to any kind of defense for her. It may be in character for her, when it comes to death count? She's really beginning to perhaps be the only one who can touch the NK in terms of sheer brutality. The ironic part about this or maybe that isn't even the right word is that this episode arguably showed the greatest part of humanity in Cersei or at the very least showed her to be far more vulnerable and less cruel and exposed people like Dany and Grey Worm at their absolute worst.





Spoiler



Eh, I see it like a quote attributed to Winston Churchill, probably eroneously. He was evidently chatting with a very pretty woman at a charity auction one day, and on a whim asked her if she'd sleep with him if he agreed to donate ten thousand pounds to charity. She paused and thought for a moment, and finally said yeah, she probably would. He then asked if she'd do it if he donated five pounds, and she asked, indignant, "what kind of a woman do you think I am?!" He allegedly replied, "I thought we already established that; all we're doing now is haggling over the price."

Basically... If Dany thinks in ANY situation burning someone alive is a suitable punishment, then as I see it she's already done for. She's a monster. All that we're doing now, debating the guilt of the old masters vs. the guilt of the Tarlys vs the guilt of Varys and finally the guilt of the peasants in an entire city is just haggling over the price.


----------



## mongey

Spoiler: stuff 



I buy dany's arc . for 1 she has some dodgey genitics like Vaerys said. she lost 2 dragons, her aide and has lost multiple battles. and after believing she would be loved by people of Westeros she has also realized that no one accepts her or ever will , and she herself said all she has to work with is fear

The pacing of the episode was so much better . they established early on the Cersei was fucked .it was never a contest. that gave them allot of time to really play out what was happening.

golden company were a mcguffin . without them there is no potential even battle as its so lopsided . they were needed to make the prospect of a battle

the only thing I found on the nose was Euron has now twice stubled upon important people in ship wreckage . missendai and jaime . also , unless I missed it ,I thought the baby would come up 

Arya's arc was a little weird. goes all that ways then decides to turn back after a few words from the hound . hopefully the scenes with her are relevant to what happens in the finale


----------



## wankerness

One of the few "armchair expert" internet whine things I've read that I actually agree with is that it could have been quite easily made MUCH more effective if


Spoiler



they'd just had her other dragon get shot down like, after the bells (by some remaining scorpion she missed, maybe by Euron or something) instead of the previous episode. THAT would be a very believable reason for her to "suddenly" snap that not even those convinced there was no setup in previous seasons could have argued with. No one could have complained then besides the whiniest of the whiny.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I hate having to 'excuse' my right to critique a piece of media, because I see people doing that left and right just because they dislike what is being presented to them, but I guess I have to as well.



Spoiler



The episode was visually stunning but thematically and story wise a complete and utter mess. A lot of it has been touched on, but goddamn it's hard to believe that this is the bowtie on all that's happened in the past decade.

They're clearly setting up for a scuffle between Arya/Dany and Jon will have to intervene or finish the job himself. It's so blatant that I feel like me watching this upcoming sunday will just be a disappointing confirmation session. And for anyone actually saying this is consistent with Dany's behavior in past seasons is missing the point that she killed *innocent people*. She avoided this in all previous scenes and situations, the only people who were ever negatively affected by her were those who didn't align with her claim as well as her intentions.

She COULD have been different, she didn't have to be the Mad Queen. It's just lazy writing at this point, and I see people getting frustrated that people are pointing this out in lieu of how good it looked. As someone with plenty of time working in media and videography, I can appreciate all the elements that the crew put into the show. But the writing is weak so all of that effort for may as well have all been a waste in my eyes when the experience drops this hard for a viewer.

If you're gonna critique me, I'm not upset that it isn't resolving how I want it to. I let artists work as they please and I critique what we receive because it isn't exempt from it's shortcomings.

If there's anything I want, it is Little Finger coming back with his ties to Bravos and slaughtering everyone left as a Faceless Man and culling all of this bullshit instead of the predictable finale I'm envisioning at this point on sunday.


----------



## thraxil

Spoiler



OK, I haven't seen this discussed here. Maybe I missed it. I also haven't read the books, so maybe it's clearer in them. But why is the Mountain so intent on fighting the Hound? The Hound's hatred for the Mountain is pretty well established going all the way back to childhood and we can totally understand why the Hound would be set on revenge. But they also spent the last few seasons establishing that undead Mountain is utterly under Cersei's control only to have him ignore her when the Hound shows up. I don't remember anything in their history that would justify that kind of deep-seated hatred. I mean, as Ser Gregor, he was clearly a prick but it felt more like he just kind of bullied and looked down on the Hound rather than having some major beef with him.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Spoiler



bECauSe clEgAnE BoWl w00t


----------



## wankerness

thraxil said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I haven't seen this discussed here. Maybe I missed it. I also haven't read the books, so maybe it's clearer in them. But why is the Mountain so intent on fighting the Hound? The Hound's hatred for the Mountain is pretty well established going all the way back to childhood and we can totally understand why the Hound would be set on revenge. But they also spent the last few seasons establishing that undead Mountain is utterly under Cersei's control only to have him ignore her when the Hound shows up. I don't remember anything in their history that would justify that kind of deep-seated hatred. I mean, as Ser Gregor, he was clearly a prick but it felt more like he just kind of bullied and looked down on the Hound rather than having some major beef with him.



Uhh...that might be a good question. I sure don't know. I don't remember how they last separated, though.


----------



## Drew

Jonathan20022 said:


> I hate having to 'excuse' my right to critique a piece of media, because I see people doing that left and right just because they dislike what is being presented to them, but I guess I have to as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The episode was visually stunning but thematically and story wise a complete and utter mess. A lot of it has been touched on, but goddamn it's hard to believe that this is the bowtie on all that's happened in the past decade.
> 
> They're clearly setting up for a scuffle between Arya/Dany and Jon will have to intervene or finish the job himself. It's so blatant that I feel like me watching this upcoming sunday will just be a disappointing confirmation session. And for anyone actually saying this is consistent with Dany's behavior in past seasons is missing the point that she killed *innocent people*. She avoided this in all previous scenes and situations, the only people who were ever negatively affected by her were those who didn't align with her claim as well as her intentions.
> 
> She COULD have been different, she didn't have to be the Mad Queen. It's just lazy writing at this point, and I see people getting frustrated that people are pointing this out in lieu of how good it looked. As someone with plenty of time working in media and videography, I can appreciate all the elements that the crew put into the show. But the writing is weak so all of that effort for may as well have all been a waste in my eyes when the experience drops this hard for a viewer.
> 
> If you're gonna critique me, I'm not upset that it isn't resolving how I want it to. I let artists work as they please and I critique what we receive because it isn't exempt from it's shortcomings.
> 
> If there's anything I want, it is Little Finger coming back with his ties to Bravos and slaughtering everyone left as a Faceless Man and culling all of this bullshit instead of the predictable finale I'm envisioning at this point on sunday.



I don't buy your bolded distinction. 



Spoiler



IMO, there are two points where Dany kills innocents. 

1) We all agree that slavery is wrong... But, when she buys her Unsullied, she's in a city where the slave trade is the law of the land and is a normal, accepted profession. We think they're _morally_ in the wrong because they're buying and training slaves... but with respect to local law and tradition, they are technicallly innocent. Dany negotiates a good-faith sale where she sells Drogon to the slavers in return for every Unsullied in the city... And then renegs on her side of the deal, attacks the slavers with Drogon and her slave army. Does she ultimately free her slaves who in return choose to follow her? Yes. Do we as contemporary viewers believe that slavery is morally depraved? Yes. IS there a sort of Robin Hood morality to her actions? Yes. But, in Astapor, with respect to local law and custom... Dany kills a whole slew of innocents. 

2) When Dany married Khal Drogo in the start of the story, with it came the expectation that after his death she would become one of the dosh khaleen, and retire to Vaes Dothrak for the rest of her life. When Drogo died, most of his riders fled, but Dany decided she would lead her own khal instead, with the remainder. In Dany's faceoff with the rest of the Dothraki in Season 6, they're there to bring her to Vaes Dothrak, again in respect to Dothraki law and tradition. Instead of going with them, she decides she's going to refuse, and to ensure she can't be brought against her will, she burns everyone alive. 

The first example... Yeah, slavers are objectively bad, and she needs an army, so who cares what happens to them, right? Ok... And then you get to the Dothraki, and, well, ok, so maybe they have a point... But Dany needs to be free to free the cities of Slaver's Bay from the slave trade, and then go back to Westeros to retake the Iron Throne and break the Lannister's grip on the crown, so if a few Dothraki khals standing in her way have to die, that's hardly too high a price to pay, right...? But, you can see, we're stepping into increasingly ambiguous moral ground, where from her viewpoint maybe they're not innocent, but increasingly it's hard to objectively agree with her. And then you get to the Talys, where maybe there's a case the elder isn't innocent, but the younger just wants to support his father, and why not just throw them in jail, as is the norm, rather than burn them alive? 

Idunno. You say she's never killed innocents before... But objectyively I don't think I can agree with that. And, by her own argument earlier in the episode before, if the city of King's Landing is loyal to Cersei, they're hardly innocent. Is that a sound argument? No, not at all... but her arguments have been getting gradually greyer for a long time before that scene. 

The difference isn't whether or not she believes what she's doing is right - rather, it's whether or not _we_ agree with her, and the show gradually adds doubt as we go along.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Spoiler



So we're comparing Slavers and a small group of large men intent on using her for their own benefit to an entire city of literally innocent people?

Why do you care about what happens to the morally unjust, but those who are simply residents of a rival faction/city are suddenly just as eligible to be on the chopping block?

So let me clarify, she's never killed innocents without an actual reason before now. If we're taking moral ground here to justify the previous killing of innocents, then you have to agree that there is definitely nuance and that nuking an entire city is far more cruel than killing a group of individuals standing in your way, not to mention actively threatening you.

I'm not in favor of her winning much less surviving this and haven't for awhile.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Jonathan20022 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So we're comparing Slavers and a small group of large men intent on using her for their own benefit to an entire city of literally innocent people?
> 
> Why do you care about what happens to the morally unjust, but those who are simply residents of a rival faction/city are suddenly are just as eligible to be on the chopping block?
> 
> So let me clarify, she's never killed innocents without an actual reason before now. If we're taking moral ground here to justify the previous killing of innocents, then you have to agree that there is definitely nuance and that nuking an entire city is far more cruel than killing a group of individuals standing in your way, not to mention actively threatening you.
> 
> I'm not in favor of her winning much less surviving this and haven't for awhile.





Spoiler: Yeah but...



At the same time, she has literally roasted people who have refused to follow her. That would be like someone from another country claiming that they have authority over you just because they have a claim to the Presidency. Obviously, the wrench in that argument is that you have to be a citizen to rule America, but still, imagine for a second we didn't have that rule. Someone comes here with a fuck ton of weapons and an army, demands you pledge fealty to them or you die. Pledging fealty to them is considered treason given that you already have a ruler and even if you rejected them without thinking of the grounds of treason and just didn't want to follow them, they just kill you on the spot regardless of what they know or don't know about you. This is NOT out of character for Dany. It's not a sudden development. There have been clues to this all along, she just really took it up a notch or two hundred thousand in this last episode. Dany has a weak mind essentially, with very little patience. She did one thing right when she came over and that was making Gendry no longer a bastard, but she hasn't bothered to look to the future to see what kind of rule she would have IF she wants to keep her gigantic pet. He's either going to be roaming the countryside eating whatever the fuck he wants, children and adults, livestock alike or he's going to be there for her daily executions when someone so much as looks at her or breathes wrong. All she wants is a throne with not a care in the world how she gets it. Hell, she didn't even care that the soldiers needed rest before their assault on King's Landing. She's got a one track mind, we've seen that. It's "do whatever the fuck I say or die" and that goes to her own advisors even.


----------



## Drew

Jonathan20022 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So we're comparing Slavers and a small group of large men intent on using her for their own benefit to an entire city of literally innocent people?
> 
> Why do you care about what happens to the morally unjust, but those who are simply residents of a rival faction/city are suddenly are just as eligible to be on the chopping block?
> 
> So let me clarify, she's never killed innocents without an actual reason before now. If we're taking moral ground here to justify the previous killing of innocents, then you have to agree that there is definitely nuance and that nuking an entire city is far more cruel than killing a group of individuals standing in your way, not to mention actively threatening you.
> 
> I'm not in favor of her winning much less surviving this and haven't for awhile.





Spoiler



Dany's actions have always been on a gradient, with "extremely easy to defend" on the left, and "totally indefensible" on the right. In the early episodes, we as viewers and readers had zero problems convincing ourselves that what we were seeing was all the way to the left, but as the show and books have gone on, there's been a very steady rightward progression. We just finally had to own up to the fact that suddenly, we're _way_ right of center, and a lot of the fact we believed we were well to the left before had as much to do with our _own_ biases and morality, and we were always probably further right than we realized.


----------



## wankerness

PunkBillCarson said:


> Spoiler: Yeah but...
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, she has literally roasted people who have refused to follow her. That would be like someone from another country claiming that they have authority over you just because they have a claim to the Presidency. Obviously, the wrench in that argument is that you have to be a citizen to rule America, but still, imagine for a second we didn't have that rule. Someone comes here with a fuck ton of weapons and an army, demands you pledge fealty to them or you die. Pledging fealty to them is considered treason given that you already have a ruler and even if you rejected them without thinking of the grounds of treason and just didn't want to follow them, they just kill you on the spot regardless of what they know or don't know about you. This is NOT out of character for Dany. It's not a sudden development. There have been clues to this all along, she just really took it up a notch or two hundred thousand in this last episode. Dany has a weak mind essentially, with very little patience. She did one thing right when she came over and that was making Gendry no longer a bastard, but she hasn't bothered to look to the future to see what kind of rule she would have IF she wants to keep her gigantic pet. He's either going to be roaming the countryside eating whatever the fuck he wants, children and adults, livestock alike or he's going to be there for her daily executions when someone so much as looks at her or breathes wrong. All she wants is a throne with not a care in the world how she gets it. Hell, she didn't even care that the soldiers needed rest before their assault on King's Landing. She's got a one track mind, we've seen that. It's "do whatever the fuck I say or die" and that goes to her own advisors even.



I'm increasingly on team Dany here. If she DIDN'T act ruthlessly and incinerate anyone that wouldn't follow her, she wouldn't be taken seriously by any of the remaining population, especially the male rulers we've seen recently. All the previous dudes did it! Like, remember a lonnnnng time ago when Theon was forced into beheading that guy just for being an ingrate? That's the society that we see on this show, and trying to judge her actions with some kind of modern societal ideals seems to miss some kind of point or ignore world-building.

Are you trying to argue that she should be kind and soft like your oppressive gender normative beliefs dictate women should be in comparison to men?!?!?! (98% joking there sorry )

I'm kinda starting to see her actions as the best possible route if she really wants to be taken seriously. Everyone's just kinda shitting on her, partly just for being a woman, in the previous couple episodes, ex the fact that Jon (the wimp) has greater birthright claim than her thanks to being male. All she can really do to legitimize herself over them is beat them at their own stupid game. Which she sure did!!!

We'll see if she's portrayed as being legitimately "crazy" instead of just ruthless rational in the next episode, I guess. But, at this point, I can definitely see it going the latter, if the show has any courage in its convictions and tries to keep it set in the world it takes place in instead of copping out and throwing modern political ideals into it (ie, surely you'd have to be nice to the commonfolk to be an effective ruler!)

FYI I've seen about 500 headlines all over the net/buzzfeed ads/etc that all say what happened that ep so using spoilertags is ridiculous


----------



## mongey

thraxil said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I haven't seen this discussed here. Maybe I missed it. I also haven't read the books, so maybe it's clearer in them. But why is the Mountain so intent on fighting the Hound? The Hound's hatred for the Mountain is pretty well established going all the way back to childhood and we can totally understand why the Hound would be set on revenge. But they also spent the last few seasons establishing that undead Mountain is utterly under Cersei's control only to have him ignore her when the Hound shows up. I don't remember anything in their history that would justify that kind of deep-seated hatred. I mean, as Ser Gregor, he was clearly a prick but it felt more like he just kind of bullied and looked down on the Hound rather than having some major beef with him.





Spoiler: yeah 



I thought that too. they did almost fight at the hands tournament ,an that have been the last time they have seen each other ? but its kind of a thin plot line if so


----------



## wankerness

I saw someone ask that elsewhere and get the answer "CAUSE THE WHOLE INTERNET WOULDN'T STFU ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO SEE CLEGANEBOWL" which may be accurate!


----------



## bostjan

I thought the last episode was great. Great cinematography, great acting, great effects...

I didn't understand all of the hate for the storytelling I read afterward.



Spoiler



I thought the Night King arc ended up being fairly disappointing, though. The dynamic between him and Bran seemed totally ruined to me, there was so much potential there, and the writers went for the path of least effort, in my opinion.
Dany's descent into madness was earned to me. She showed signs of mercurial indifference and capability of violence for years. She had been behaving increasingly impatient and she had been threatening her closest allies. Sending Jorah away to die, burning the Tarlys, killing Varys... that and the emotional crap she's been through losing two dragons and everyone close to her except Grey Worm, who, remember, is a quite violent dude, it all fits.
I do wish that the Mountain and Qyburn had had a little more development, but I guess there's just no time.
The hardest parts for me to believe were 1. A random white horse appears (where every living thing has been burninated) and 2. Jaime is evidently the Black Knight from Monty Python ("tis but a flesh wound)


----------



## beerandbeards

The Mountain


----------



## TheDivineWing22

wankerness said:


> Everyone's just kinda shitting on her, partly just for being a woman, in the previous couple episodes, ex the fact that Jon (the wimp) has greater birthright claim than her thanks to being male. All she can really do to legitimize herself over them is beat them at their own stupid game. Which she sure did!!!



The reason Jon has the better claim isn't because he is male (probably helps) but is because the line is succession would have went from Aerys to Rhaegar to Jon (Aegon.) Her whole claim to the throne, other than being a conqueror, is that she is the last in the line of the Targaryens. The true rulers of Westeros prior to the usurpers taking the throne.

But, still, you're probably right that she isnt taken as seriously as she would be if she was a man.


----------



## Chris Bowsman

I’m undecided about the Daenerys “twist.”

The Mountain/Hound... cool fight if nothing else. Knife to the face with no effect? May as well have him walk out of the fire. 

Cersei & Jaimie? Fucking LAME.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Drew said:


> I think through 5 it wasn't _bad_ writing, per se, so much as it was just VERY different from the books in places, but I was willing to go with it figuring it was in the interest of simplifying a very convoluted and complex storyline and that the changes would make sense in the end. Basically, I took it on faith that they knew what they were doing.



I am heavily biased from reading the books but after how badly they handled Dorne, Stannis marching on Winterfell, new Sansa reverting back to old Sansa, Arya's training and a bunch of other things in S5 I just had to check out. I only started watching again recently because the books didn't come out in the 4 years between and I didn't want some big end game twist spoiled while browsing FB someday. Don't get me wrong there were some of the best parts of the show in S5 like Hardhome and the walk of shame but I'm just surprised it took so long for the general audience to turn around and question why something didn't make any sense or was poorly built up. I guess you can forgive bad parts when the good parts are amazing but they tipped the scales way too far this season for most viewers. It sure is fun TV though and like people have already said in this thread way better than the majority of shows even when its bad. 

Season finale in 5 days! It's crazy to think this first aired in 2011. There will be a tidal wave of fantasy shows coming in the next few years now. Many already far in development.


----------



## gnoll

This was probably my least favorite episode so far. Definately not a fan of this season


----------



## Drew

Funny, I thought it was the best of a very mixed season.  

Eh, end of the day... it's enjoyable TV, and I'll be drinking the Night's Watch Oban while watching the series finale on Sunday. There's very little TV I go out of my way to watch, and even though I've had some pretty big plot issues with the way this is wrapping up, it's still made enjoyable watching.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Damn, I was hoping for an Anita Ward cover.


----------



## spudmunkey

As someone who's never watched a single episode, is it actually over on Sunday? Since I'm going to have to pirate it, I didn't want to start it unless I knew I could get it all.


----------



## Drew

Yeah, Sunday is the series finale.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Binge watching 8 seasons of GOT might be a bit intense!


----------



## jaxadam

This is pretty funny...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/entertainment/game-thrones-petition/index.html


----------



## wankerness

These people are fast approaching the Last Jedi crew. Soon it's going to be impossible to criticize it without aligning yourself with terrible people.


----------



## bostjan

People are complaining about the entire season before it's even over. Maybe you won't like it if you've already convinced yourself that it'll be bad.


----------



## mongey

Its funny I have been talking it over with people at work, my work is 85% female . I have found a very strong reaction from allot of females towards Dany's actions. like its a slight on woman hood


----------



## wankerness

mongey said:


> Its funny I have been talking it over with people at work, my work is 85% female . I have found a very strong reaction from allot of females towards Dany's actions. like its a slight on woman hood



Sounds like some of that 85% is DUMB!


----------



## Jonathan20022

bostjan said:


> People are complaining about the entire season before it's even over. Maybe you won't like it if you've already convinced yourself that it'll be bad.



Dude, it's modern day premium television.

This show went from great writing with an ever growing budget to having a complete hack take over and go wild with that still growing budget. You don't have to see the future to tell something isn't going to meet expectations, never got the whole "wait until it's over" thing I always hear. The finale somehow being amazing (according to spoilers, it won't be. yes I looked them up because I'm well over it) won't change the how sub-par/terrible some of these episodes have been.


----------



## wankerness

What complete hack took over and how?


----------



## jaxadam

M Night Shyamalan


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

YouTuber MauLer uploaded his "An Unbridled Rage" review of S8, E4 yesterday. (I'm assuming he is running slow on an E5 review video because it's truly hard to even care about the show anymore...I know that I'm in that boat). It's 45 minutes long and tears apart a lot of the issues with E4 going into E5, but the last 9 or 10 minutes really hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

So, I finally got around to watching S8, E5 after about a week of procrastinating simply because, like many _Game of Thrones_ fans, I have been finding it increasingly difficult to even care about the TV series with how much of a trainwreck this final season has been.

With that said, I’m going to drop a nuke on many of the things that are wrong with this episode. So, let’s do this.



Spoiler



- Tyrion really believes in Daenerys so much that he so easily betrays Varys? Bullshit. Lest we forget, Varys is the only person aside from Jaime Lannister who *ever* came to Tyrion’s defense. I mean, Varys smuggled Tyrion out of King’s Landing in a fucking box and had him shipped over to Essos because he believed that Tyrion’s life was worth saving so that he could serve Daenerys. So, after Varys saved Tyrion’s life, Tyrion so easily rats him out? And then, we the viewers are expected to believe that Varys was so easily ready to betray Daenerys, knowing that he would be caught and executed? What did Varys think he was? A martyr? Yeah…no. That's not in his character. Varys is way smarter than that as the Master of Whispers. This is just bad writing.

- Why is the military in formation outside of the walls of King’s Landing. Ok, come on… Can D&D at least pretend to know about basic military tactics and the purpose of having a wall around a city in the first place?

- The Hound mentions the Dothraki early on in the episode. We see the Dothraki charge into King’s Landing, and then they vanish for the entire episode until Arya’s escape sequence where she is running through the streets. We see the Unsullied fighting. We see Northmen fighting. But we never see any Dothraki period until they fly by in Arya’s escape sequence. Where did they all go? What were they doing?

- Why did absolutely *no one* in Daenerys’ encampment care nor mention that Jaime was mysteriously missing the morning after Tyrion freed him?

- Tyrion asked Davos to either smuggle a dingy to the entrance of the cavern/grotto under King’s Landing, or he asked Davos to smuggle Jaime and Cersei out of King’s Landing (which Davos probably wouldn’t do knowing his character). This request seemed to be entirely tossed out the window almost immediately because Davos is seen standing on the rock with Tyrion and Jon Snow before the assault on King’s Landing commences.

- All of Daenerys’ commanders (Jon, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Davos, etc.) plan for an attack at dawn. They say explicitly an attack at dawn, and Jon says “no later”. But then, they instead commence the attack at midday when the sun is high in the sky. (Remember that Daenerys used the sun and the clouds to hide from the Iron Fleet’s sight before she began attacking.) What a blatantly sad inconsistency...

- Speaking of inconsistency, let’s talk about the inconsistency with the editing. In the scene where Jon, Grey Worm, and a horde of both Unsullied and Northmen have their tense stand-off at the deserted bell tower, we see Daenerys land Drogon nearby, waiting. But when Daenerys lands, the cut shows that the area around the bell tower is *clearly* flooded with civilians. No Jon, no Grey Worm, and no soldiers. Just a ton of civilians. Then it immediately cuts back to Jon, Grey Worm, and the troops, once again showing the area at the bell tower deserted except for the soldiers having their tense stand-off. To further prove that this is the same exact bell tower, cuts to Tyrion are interspersed between, and Tyrion can see the troops having their stand-off and he can also see Daenerys and Drogon perched nearby. (So, you’re going to tell me that no one caught the bad cut of Daenerys landing and the area being *clearly* flooded with civilians instead of soldiers? Fuck off.)

- Ringing the bells is *not* the sign for surrender in King’s Landing. (Jaime confirms this in a way, which I’ll address in a second.) The ringing of the bells was something that Tyrion completely made up in hopes that Jaime (as his inside man) could ring the bells and it would halt any unnecessary bloodshed and protect the civilians in King’s Landing if Daenerys’ commanders actually listened to Tyrion's words. This was a nice attempt at trickery on Tyrion’s part, but it ultimately did not work as the viewer witnesses. Jaime should’ve said something though because he surely would’ve known that ringing the bells wasn’t the signal for surrender in King’s Landing. (Remember, Jaime was a member of the Kingsguard for 20 years. Seems like D&D forgot about that.) Also, Jaime *clearly* does not ring the bells. He instead heads to the cavern entrance beneath King’s Landing. So, who rang the bells? An inconsistency perhaps?

- Why was Jaime even down at the entrance to the cavern below King’s Landing in the first place? Was he trying to sneak in backwards (from the cavern) into the catacombs below King’s Landing where the dragon skulls are located? Surely, he could’ve just shown his hand/identity to the Lannister men who shut the gate to the Red Keep and gotten inside, right? I mean, he is the queen’s brother. So they ought to have let him inside. But nope, D&D had to set things up for the “Dane Bowl”.

- The “Dane Bowl” with Jaime versus Euron was absolutely lame, pointless, and unnecessary. It had zero effect on the story since Jaime just walked away despite being stabbed multiple times by Euron who just so happened to magically wash up on the same spit of beach at the same time that Jaime was there. This fight was just D&D deciding to pit two characters against each other simply because the two had fucked the same woman.

- After finally finding Cersei in the Red Keep, Jaime seems to have magically forgotten that she sent Bronn to kill him with a giant crossbow in the previous episode before Tyrion haggled Bronn down with the offer of Highgarden. Maybe it’s just me here, but I don’t think sending an assassin to kill you is the kind of thing that you easily forget.

- What the fuck even happened to Bronn? Where did he go after the last episode? Did he just teleport off and the viewers will never see nor hear from him again?

- Jaime and Cersei, these two great characters in television history, both died by simply having rubble dumped on them, which seems odd considering that the viewers previously witnessed Gregor Clegane protect Cersei from having half of a fucking tower collapsing on top of her only a few minutes prior. Maybe it’s just me here, but I think that Jaime and Cersei should’ve gone out in a more epic fashion.

- Springboarding off the previous point, I bet that the next episode will show Tyrion kicking through the rubble of the Red Keep, and he is going to uncover Jaime’s dented up golden hand but *no bodies*; thus, signaling that Jaime and Cersei somehow miraculously survived having a castle collapse on top of them (because, ya know, “plot armor”), but the viewer will never see Jaime or Cersei ever again. We will be left to simply infer. But that would be a totally stupid move to pull because Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion and all of the others need confirmation of Cersei’s death (they need a body) for each of their own personal reasons and in order to proclaim Daenerys as the new queen.

- Related point here: this is neither a qualm nor an issue, but it was a nice touch of realism to see Cersei regress into being a scared, little girl. It exposed what bit of humanity there was at her core and it showed her at her most vulnerable point.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Continuation with more issues in the episode.


Spoiler



- Why did the Unsullied and the Northmen (and the Dothraki?) perceive Daenerys suddenly lighting the city up with fire as a “go ahead” to commit an amoral free-for-all? I mean, Grey Worm began taking out enemies when there was absolutely no need to. Although, with that said, Grey Worm succumbing to rage and taking it out on innocent civilians is pretty reflective of humans in reality and how we also succumb to rage and take it out on others, as heartless as that may sound.

- Seriously, why the fuck did Daenerys have to torch King’s Landing? Why could she not just fly up to the Red Keep, burn the tower where Cersei was shacked up, and called it a day? She had no reason to torch King’s Landing and commit a mass genocide of innocent civilians. *IT MAKES ZERO SENSE.* At this point, I am convinced that Daenerys committing a mass genocide of innocent civilians was a move pulled out of nowhere for “shits and giggles” by D&D as a giant “fuck you” to all of the moronic fans who named their daughters or pets or whatever “Daenerys” or “Khaleesi” after this character who is now a self-entitled, mass murdering maniac of a millennial female.

- Arya suddenly changes her mind about killing Cersei after the Hound simply tells her to go home. Ok, first off, the two of them should’ve had that conversation before they even left Winterfell. Why have it now of all times after traveling a thousand miles to be at the King's Landing? Why? Just so she can call him by his first name like they are now on a cutesy, first name basis? Fuck off. This nullifies Arya’s entire character buildup because she has been wanting to kill Cersei since Season 1. Cersei’s name has been at the top of Arya’s death list that she has prattled off every night before bedtime. And now, Arya is going to magically decide to pass up on the perfect opportunity to finally kill Cersei? Bullshit. Total fucking bullshit.

- The Hound could’ve killed Cersei, but he didn’t. He just let her walk right on by. *WHY DIDN’T HE KILL CERSEI?* He had nothing to lose by doing so. It would’ve been quick and easy. It would’ve ended the war. It would’ve all been over.

- The “Clegane Bowl” was pure fan service and was a total letdown. It didn’t affect the story in any way whatsoever. Even the fight at the Hand’s tournament back in Season 1 was more epic than the “Clegane Bowl”. I understand that having both the Hound and the Mountain perish together was the most fulfilling end because we see the hero (the Hound) topple the enemy (the Mountain) even at the cost of his own life, but did D&D really have to cop-out and resort to the whole “revenge is a bad path that will lead to your destruction” cliché that we have heard time and time again? Come on…

- The random, untouched, unscathed horse just chilling in front of Arya. You’re going to tell me that a white horse got the balls to ride into a blazing inferno and then just stopped in front of Arya and was taking in the scenery? Fuck off. That was a very, very poor attempt at symbolism for nothing.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Specifically regarding Jaime’s ruined character arc:


Spoiler



- Jaime’s entire redemption arc with all of his development over the seasons is tossed out the window when he regresses and willingly chooses to go back to Cersei. He underwent so many changes as a character throughout the TV series (and in the book series), and all of it is just nullified. Sure, Jaime did some shitty things such as pushing Brann out the window of the tower and killing Ned’s men, but he also did some heroic deeds such as stabbing the Mad King, saving half of King’s Landing, helping protect the Stark girls to fulfill a promise to Catelyn Stark, etc. His entire story is one of redemption, and D&D just tore it apart at the end. I understand that Jaime and Cersei came into the world together, so it is only fitting that they go out together, but it seems like such a bland cliché, especially for such a strongly developed character. With all of that said, I do find Jaime’s gravitation back towards Cersei to be an accurate reflection of the nature of toxic relationships in reality and how we humans just cannot seem to let go of toxic relationships (or toxic behavioral patterns).

- Jaime took it upon himself to kill the Mad King in order to save Westeros. And yet, he won’t do the same with Daenerys in order to save the innocent civilians of King’s Landing whom Daenerys is killing simply because he wants to get to Cersei? Come on…



Specifically regarding D&D’s destruction of Daenerys as a character and the fact that none of what we witnessed in S8, E5 lines up with who Daenerys is:


Spoiler



- Earlier in the series (I forget which episode), Daenerys told Varys explicitly that she did *not* travel to Westeros to become the “Queen of the Ashes”. Earlier in the series (I also forget which episode), Daenerys said to Jorah Mormont that the 200,000 slaves in Yunkai were “200,000 reasons to take the city”. She also tells Jorah that any blood on her hands as a result of her conquest will be “the blood of her enemies, not the blood of innocents”.

- In the previous episode (S8, E4), Daenerys says that she wants to make sure that the people of King’s Landing “know that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed”, ensuring that the general populace would blame Cersei instead. Well, looks like D&D tossed that statement right out the window, didn’t they?

- Daenerys did so much in Essos in order to prove that she was a caring, compassionate person. She freed slaves, she destroyed the slave trade (at least in the TV series), she tried to protect her abusive asshole of a brother Viserys from the Dothraki, she spared Varys who tried to have her killed, she spared Jaime who killed her father, she was _mhysa_ to all of the people whom she freed. She was *never* set up to be a genocidal maniac.

- With that above point said, Daenerys has indeed done some very cruel acts, and she has been quite alright with burning enemies alive in the past including: burning Miri Mas Dur on Khal Drogo’s pyre, burning the necromancers at the House of the Undying, burning the slaver who sold her the Unsullied in exchange for Drogon, burning the masters at Astapor, burning the masters at Meereen, burning the Khals who were simply trying to return her to Vaes Dothrak, burning Randall Tarly and Samwell Tarly’s brother, etc. But every single time that she committed such an act of burning a human alive, it was always a calculated move in order to stop an enemy from inhibiting her so that she could progress with her cause of abolishing slavery and breaking the feudalistic wheel. Each burning was for “the greater good” as voiced by those who backed her and supported her in her conquest. Each burning was *not* an impulsive, spur-of-the-moment killing done in rage or madness like the mass genocide bullshit that D&D wrote in for S8, E5. So, it is illogical to say that those handful of acts committed by Daenerys were evidence leading up to her sudden “snap” and decision to torch all of King’s Landing. That is total fucking bullshit. That is so unlike Daenerys’ character. There is a *vast* difference between individually executing your enemies (who are out to harm you or stop you from attaining your goals) and mass attacking innocent civilians.

- Sure, Daenerys did indeed state in S8, E5 that fear was her only method for taking the throne. She had just arrived in Westeros from across the Narrow Sea and announced that she was rightfully queen. She had not done anything to earn the people’s love and affection, and she absolutely refused to take the time to do so. She told Jon: “I don’t have love here. I only have fear.” This presents the classic Machiavellian dilemma: a ruler has to be either loved or feared. Daenerys had the latter but not the former. And yet, for contrast, in all of the episodes of Season 8 thus far, some character at some point has said that more and more houses/forces are backing Daenerys (such as the announcement in S8, E5 that the Prince of Dorne was now backing her). So, she clearly had some measure of support and love from the people, or at least she had support from those who didn’t want Cersei to be the queen of Westeros. That right there ought to have been enough to work with. So there is no way whatsoever that Daenerys could have the utilization of fear as her sole course of action for taking the throne when so many people were backing her. She wasn’t forced to torch King’s Landing nor did she have to do it. She clearly had some measure of support and love. She didn’t just “snap” out of nowhere. D&D simply wanted to ruin her character.

- I can truly appreciate a good “fall from grace” character arc, but only if it is done properly. And in the case of the character of Daenerys Stormborn, it was *not* done properly. D&D absolutely butchered her character beyond recognition. She started off as a hero and lived long enough to see herself become the villain in a way that makes absolutely *ZERO LOGICAL SENSE* given her history and the evidence that we the viewers have of her actions. (Yeah that "hero/villian" quote was indeed a reference to Aaron Eckhart’s character of Two-Face in 2008’s The Dark Knight, a relatively decent example of a “fall from grace” character arc, even if he was predictable. Perhaps D&D should've taken some notes.)


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

When assessing the actions of any character in the Game of Thrones TV series now, I can’t help but to think: “What would Tywin Lannister do if he were in that character’s position instead?” This seems like a good way of assessing how much bullshit is present in the writing of a character’s actions in _Game of Thrones _now.

Here are some videos that I’m going to leave you guys with.


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## Emperor Guillotine




----------



## Chris Bowsman

Well, that sucked.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Just watched the final episode. In all honesty, it wasn't a good episode by any means, but it was definitely perhaps the most consistent episode of Season 8. Not much happened, the episode is entirely dialogue based, and it moved quickly and it felt short (at least, to me, personally). The viewer is still left with a lot of holes and loose ends that were obviously outright dumped for the sake of time and laziness, but D&D did use a pretty, little bow to tie up what they could, and every named character who remains is given a happy ending (which seems very unlike something that GRRM would do). Fuck happy endings.

With that said, as an ending to the eight season series, this episode was a fucking boring, horrible, shitty ending on all accounts. So, fuck this ending. What a load of shit.

Issues with the episode:


Spoiler



- Did a single civilian survive at King's Landing? Clearly not...

- We never see that "symbolic" white horse again. Arya immediately ditched the horse after she rode out on it at the end of the previous episode.

- Grey Worm somehow magically teleports to the top of the stairs ahead of Jon. Grey Worm also later teleports onto a ship ahead of Jon. Seems like Grey Worm has mastered Goku's ability of instant transmission from Dragon Ball Z. Arya uses the same ability to teleport behind Jon at the top of the stairs.

- How did Daenerys even know that Tyrion freed Jaime? She never once saw Jaime, and no one seemed concerned about his disappearance the day of the battle.

- Daenerys, this ultimate character built up over eight seasons, is simple offed by a single knife stab and dies within like ten seconds. I'm sorry, but she deserved to go out with more of a bang after all these years of character development, especially since we just observed Jaime taking multiple stab wounds and being fine enough to still climb into King's Landing in the previous episode.

- Drogon melts the Iron Throne. What the fuck. Like, you're going to tell me that a dragon, who is said in the series to be as sentient and intelligent as a dog, randomly decided to say "fuck this chair" and melt it? Fuck off with that.

- It seems like all of the lords and ladies present at the meeting (and the showrunners) forgot that Gendry had a solid fucking claim to be king. In fact, Gendry had more of a claim that Daenerys ever did.

- Jon is sentenced back to the Night's Watch...wait...there is still a Night's Watch? Is there even a need for a Night's Watch since the wall got annihilated and there is now peace with the Wildlings?

- Why are the Unsullied heading to Naath of all places? And what will they do there? Since there are all castrated men, I doubt they will procreate or do anything of that nature that typically comes with colonization.

- Why does Arya suddenly want to go West of Westeros? Now she is like fucking Captain Jack Sparrow wanting to sail off into the sunset or into uncharted territory for adventure? Where the fuck did that even come from? We as the viewers are left with nothing here.

- So, Bronn got Highgarden as promised, and he became the Master of Coin because apparently Highgarden is still a wealthy castle despite the Tyrell family being wiped out and no one living there. (Ok...) Seems like Bronn ultimately played the Game of Thrones the right way because he got a position on the council despite betraying so many including Tyrion and despite threatening to kill Tyrion. Bravo to Bronn then.

- For all of the fans who were upset about Jon not petting Ghost before telling Tormund to take the direwolf north of the wall, they can now shut the fuck up because Jon and Ghost are reunited. And you know what happened? THEY GOT THEIR LAST-MINUTE FAN SERVICE. JON PETTED GHOST LIKE THE GOOD DOG THAT GHOST IS.

- The ending to Jon's character arc felt incredibly lukewarm and mediocre. I mean, the last shot is just him leading the Wildlings out of the tunnel in the wall to venture further north. But for what exactly?


----------



## Seabeast2000

Chris Bowsman said:


> Well, that sucked.


 
Snow or ash? It was all gone next day.

Those guys that went to the island....uhh....I guess to die off eventually?

1962 George Harrison is the new king.

Good for Jon.

I assume Drocon will be bouncing strip clubs or getting his real estate license now.


----------



## wankerness

I liked the last episode, against most opinions from friends, but I can’t deny this one totally sucked. That was one limpid finale. It made the Lost one look good.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Watch the episode and spot the water bottles that were left in shots that made it into the final edit.

Meanwhile, IdeasOfIceAndFire has already posted his review of the final episode on YouTube.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

So, I didn't love the episode but I didn't hate it either:



Spoiler: Pros/Cons



What I did like about the episode was obviously Daenerys dying, because it needed to happen. How it happened, and how Drogon didn't immediately kill Jon for doing so, I have NO idea, so that felt a little out of sorts for me. I will say that this was one of those moments that evoked some emotion from me because I did feel bad for Drogon. He and his brothers were essentially used as pawns to do Daenerys bidding all this time and essentially acts as an animal should other than melting the throne. I'm still trying to understand that as well. That said, he lost the one that cared about him and the one he essentially looked to as a parent so immediately, I think of a dog that loses its master and well... there's the sadness. Yes, I know it's CGI. Yes, I know this is fantasy... Yes I know it's irrational to feel this way about that.

Bran becoming King... not sure I agree, especially since again, technically Gendry has a stronger claim. Maybe he wanted it, maybe he didn't, clearly he didn't care because he didn't speak up. Tyrion becoming Hand, almost not unexpected, but I don't have a gripe with it.

Overall, Sansa becoming Queen in the North was a nice touch. Girl has matured quite a bit, has been through hell and she seems to have a decent head on her shoulders. Arya becoming a sailor... the more and more I think about it, the more I realize it's not so unnatural for her to be in the shoes of a sailor. She's spent most of the series journeying to new places, seeing new faces, and so she's an adventurer at heart anyways. I'm fine with it.

Jon leading the wildlings back home? A nice touch, especially since he's with people that respect him and now he can lead them back home without worries of what's in the night. I am a little confused about the purpose of a Night's Watch now, being that the wildlings and everyone have essentially made peace. The only thing I can possibly see happening that would need a Night's Watch is someone coming back for revenge on Jon, but... I don't know. Lots of people were pissed at what Jon did, including two leaders of different armies so I guess it's possible, but again I don't know. All in all, not my favorite episode, but I didn't hate it. There were some good moments here.


----------



## wankerness

Sansa’s great. F Bran. Someone finally alerted me to r/freefolk last night; I thought one of their top posts “when you don’t do any work but still get an a on the group project” with a picture of him about summed it up.


Spoiler



Not just that, but the spectacular pointlessness of everything related to the three-eyed raven and worging in this last season! Or how he apparently let everyone in king’s Landing die for this? Jeez.

I guess it was MAYBE less boring than if Jon had become king, but it was still a lot worse.



Dany’s fate was as boring as it possibly could have been. Ugh.


----------



## lurè

Arya's fate is perfect for a spin-off series or even some other books.


----------



## ramses

I believe that was a great ending with a great lesson.

Charismatic leaders that are convinced of their moral superiority are the most dangerous ones. 

Daenerys did not change. She did not go crazy. This was actually telegraphed in previous seasons.


----------



## wankerness

lurè said:


> Arya's fate is perfect for a spin-off series or even some other books.



The last thing we need is more stuff to distract GRR Martin!

Also, she's not a particularly interesting character, especially when you take her away from the good characters that were on the show. Just look at her "arc" in seasons 5-6!


----------



## TheTrooper

The show ended exactly as it should've ended.
They could not please everybody that whatched the series, but I am by no means unhappy by the finale.
Sure season 8 was rushed, but I really liked the way it evolved, and I wasn't expecting any less considering how Ep 5 went.

If you want to see a series finale that sucked, go watch Dexter.


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## jaxadam

TheTrooper said:


> If you want to see a series finale that sucked, go watch Dexter.



Or Two and a Half Men


----------



## Xaios

I was perfectly fine with the finale. The real joy though is watching people's heads explode in nerd rage, which truly ranks among my favorite spectator sports at this point. It really goes to show that, no matter how "adult" fantasy and comic franchises become in the mainstream, nothing in these fandoms ever really changes; it's still made up by a large portion of whiny, entitled children who are just constitutionally incapable of _dealing_ with the fact that their favorite show/movie/game franchise didn't meet their astronomical expectations. The only way they know to process disappointment is to hategasm on everything and everyone, with maximum petulance.

I remember thinking that it was a good thing that mainstream media was finally catering to fantasy and comic fans. After spending the past few years watching fans of the genres get furiously butthurt at every perceived slight and spray their bile all across the internet, I kinda wish it had never happened, because these children clearly aren't ready to act with civility.


----------



## narad

TheTrooper said:


> If you want to see a series finale that sucked, go watch Dexter.



Now that's a finale so bad it basically retroactively ruined the show for me.


----------



## bostjan

Now I know the title for the spinoff show:



Spoiler



Weekend at Dany's - a zany dragon gets invited to his queen's beach house at dragonstone, but come to find out, she's no longer with the living!


Or maybe


Spoiler



Arya Gonna Go My Way?



Ya know, I was fine with the ending. Seriously, I don't think there was a single finale that would have made everyone happy. Hell, the show even was selfaware of that, according to Tyrion. I guess people were expecting something profound. I don't know how anyone expected it to end, but if it went full status quo, fans would have hated it. If it went totally upside down, fans would have hated it.

Regarding Arya, in the books she was basically the most consistent main character. I don't know why everyone is acting like she didn't deserve to be a part of season 8.

Meh, whatever. Your mileage evidently will vary.


----------



## Seabeast2000

I think Jon should have ridden off on the dragon and when he looks down back at the cast, sees "good bye" spelt out in dragon stones across the ground.


----------



## Jason B

Oh man, all this time I thought it was “Game of Onions.”


----------



## TheTrooper

jaxadam said:


> Or Two and a Half Men


I actually liked that finale!
I mean, having Charlie back would've been amazing, but the all "breaking the fourth wall" thing and the self irony about the show was pretty crazy


----------



## Chris Bowsman

No nerd rage here, have never been more than a casual fan. I’m sure you guys are right, they knew they couldn’t make everybody happy. To me, it felt like a lazy, phoned in wrote off. 

They were offered two 10 episode seasons. They chose the abbreviated versions. Unless they were sick of it and wanted to move on, why else would you do that?


----------



## Winspear

I thought the death scene could have been a lot more powerful, but that aside I thought the finale was great. Not really sure what more could have been wanted from it, personally. Would have enjoyed the previous episodes to have been spread out across at least a couple more, though.


----------



## Chris Bowsman

Winspear said:


> Not really sure what more could have been wanted from it, personally. Would have enjoyed the previous.


----------



## mongey

damn. I have defended allot of shit the last few seasons, but that was terrible.

The whole let’s invent democracy thing was beyond absurd.

Maybe the worst ever finale to a once great show. At least sopranos ending had some context.


----------



## narad

mongey said:


> damn. I have defended allot of shit the last few seasons, but that was terrible.
> 
> The whole let’s invent democracy thing was beyond absurd.
> 
> Maybe the worst ever finale to a once great show. At least sopranos ending had some context.



_At least_ sopranos ending?? That ending was fantastically executed. Pun intended?


----------



## wankerness

People that rage against the Sopranos finale never seem to be able to say anything about it beyond the last two minutes of it. Even if you don’t understand/hate that, there’s a lot of good episode there that gets ignored.

I thought this was awful, but the democracy scene and the whole concept of Bran are the only two things I can actually say I disliked. This very well may be a case where it plays just fine in binge form.

I bring this up because it’s relevant to the concept of weekly TV vs binge - I watched Breaking Bad every week and hung out on discussion boards for it starting back in season 2. When season 4 started with that pair of episodes that were largely just table setting and Jesse being TOTALLY NIHILISTIC, MAN at parties, I and many others were like “what the hell happened to this show?!” They were awful if you got them as new episodes that you had a whole week to mull over before you saw the next episode. When rewatching the series, however, they seemed more than fine and served perfectly as a sort of breather after season 3 and an intro as season 4 slowly ramped up to unbearable levels of tension in the last couple episodes.

What I’m saying is that if you stuck all the episodes together instead of watching this last one by itself as something you’d been waiting for, it probably works well pacing-wise and the lack of events is fine since it’s the ending, not a stand-alone episode.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Jason B said:


> Oh man, all this time I thought it was “Game of Onions.”


Nah, because then Davos Seaworth would have to be the main character since he is known as "the Onion Knight" due to his house's sigil.

Tossing a new video from The Critical Drinker up on here.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I liked Jon's, Arya's and Sansa's ending but they needed more character development this season to get to that point. The only thing I didn't like was Bran but I'm not sure how else they could have ended it. If you took bullet points of the major things that happened this season its good on paper but they really failed at executing it in a convincing way. A full 10 episode season was definitely needed. I checked out back in S5 so I'm not that bothered by the final season since I'm not really invested in the show.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

D&D need to go back to school for writing because they lacked all four of these essential elements.


----------



## wankerness

WTF is "world-building" in terms of a single character and how did she fail that "test?"

How did she not have quality character development over these 8 seasons?

"Usage of basic logic by characters?" Why do they need to do that if they're behaving illogically?

Some of those things are only required if you're doing a paint-by-numbers script tbph. Most people wouldn't say that like...Ned Stark's conclusion was emotionally satisfying, yet pretty much everyone agrees that it was well written.

I'm not saying that what she did was necessarily well-written, I'm saying those criticisms sound like BS.


----------



## thraxil

I'm pretty happy with the ending overall. I just felt like the last season generally felt rushed and had some lazy writing. I at least feel like GRRM had thought everything out and it was just the showrunners being sloppy. eg, Daenarys' overall character arc makes sense, but they did a poor job of making that last step into madness/megalomania believable. It seems like they could've done it with a few more episodes and more care. Did HBO give them a hard limit on the number of episodes or something? Kinda wish they'd given them budget to expand the final season a little more.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

wankerness said:


> WTF is "world-building" in terms of a single character and how did she fail that "test?"


World building isn't limited to one character. I'm just using Daenerys screaming as the image for a meme here.

In general, D&D completely failed in terms of basic world building because of all of the constant inconsistencies in the world around the characters, which made it really difficult to suspend disbelief as a viewer, even with the CGI visuals.



wankerness said:


> How did she not have quality character development over these 8 seasons?


You're missing the point here.

D&D assassinated the character of Daenerys and had her legitimately turn on a dime with no development and no buildup leading to her "snap". It just happened because they as the writers wanted it to happen so that they could illogically rush to the ending.



wankerness said:


> "Usage of basic logic by characters?" Why do they need to do that if they're behaving illogically?


Characters need to utilize logic in order for the viewer to suspend disbelief. Otherwise, it's just bad writing. This also flexes back to world building because logic does play a role in world building and establishing believability.



wankerness said:


> Some of those things are only required if you're doing a paint-by-numbers script tbph. Most people wouldn't say that like...Ned Stark's conclusion was emotionally satisfying, yet pretty much everyone agrees that it was well written.


No, every story, script, book, whatever regardless of medium, format, or genre (but ESPECIALLY FICTIONAL WRITING) requires world building, character development, logic, and an emotionally satisfying conclusion. If not, then it's just piss-poor writing.


----------



## lurè

I'm ok with the ending of Sansa, Arya and Jon but


Spoiler



why Bran king? I mean everyone who wanted the iron throne ended up dying; if there's a lesson the entire serie tought is that in the game of thrones there are no winners but only losers. Every single character who claimed the throne died while the only survivors are the one who didn't care or didn't want to be king, so imho , the best solution would have been 7 independent kingdoms like Sansa's North.
Also, didn't grasp the logic behind the dragon burning down the iron throne.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

lurè said:


> I'm ok with the ending of Sansa, Arya and Jon but
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> why Bran king? I mean everyone who wanted the iron throne ended up dying; if there's a lesson the entire serie tought is that in the game of thrones there are no winners but only losers. Every single character who claimed the throne died while the only survivors are the one who didn't care or didn't want to be king, so imho , the best solution would have been 7 independent kingdoms like Sansa's North.
> Also, didn't grasp the logic behind the dragon burning down the iron throne.


Bran:


Spoiler



Total cop-out move on the writers' part because Bran is the one character that fans didn't love nor hate because he simply just...existed. That is why the writers chose him. They annihilated the purpose of his story arc (compared to his role in the books) and turned him into a log that didn't do anything other than just exist and browse the internet from the confines of his wheelchair.



Sansa:


Spoiler



Bran gave the North its independence because he knew that Sansa would do nothing but bitch about it like the spoiled, pompous brat that she was developed into, until he (Bran) finally conceded and gave her what she wanted. Also, Bran probably has a soft spot for his home region.

If this giving of independence were to happen in the books (not just in the TV series), then it would stir up a future problem with the Iron Islands should they ever try to demand their independence again like how they did in Balon's Rebellion. Ditto for Dorne since Dorne wants to re-establish Rhoynish practices and ways of life in the books.



Drogon:


Spoiler



"But it was a metaphor, bro... Lol." (Total sarcasm here.)


----------



## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> D&D assassinated the character of Daenerys and had her legitimately turn on a dime with no development and no buildup leading to her "snap". It just happened because they as the writers wanted it to happen so that they could illogically rush to the ending..


Totally disagree. Tyrion made almost verbatim the same argument I'd been making all last week in this thread - the only difference between what Dany did in King's Landing and what she did in literally every other season in this show is all those _other_ times, we thought all the people she lit on fire _deserved_ to burn. She didn't "snap" so much as probably never had a moral compass to begin with, and a totally fair question here is if _anyone_ should have that kind of power.

I thought the episode was... fine, I guess. Bran was stupid; that's the ultimate participation trophy. Everything else was probably roughly what we all expected, was well shot (the final scene tracking Dany, Arya, and Sansa was beautifully executed), and the small council and Tyrion's ommission in the story provided some fun comedic touches. I've been saying all season that we have to stop pretending _Game of Thrones_ is _A Song of Ice and Fire_ and I think if you can do that it becomes a lot easier to appreciate the show on its own merits - a show with some flaws and some big plot holes, but some truly memorable scenes, spectacular characters, and brought us a couple inspired actors and actresses.



mongey said:


> Its funny I have been talking it over with people at work, my work is 85% female . I have found a very strong reaction from allot of females towards Dany's actions. like its a slight on woman hood


This actually has me thinking maybe the series wasn't all abd, for what it's worth - there was a similar backlash from men about Arya killing the Night's King, and if everyone's pissed, maybe it was the best compromise we could hope for.  

Idunno. Gaslighting is definitely a thing, but that doesn't also preclude a woman from being a tyrannical despot. It can go either way. 

I don't have the picture handy, it was sent to me as a text, and a google search isn't turning up anything... but a buddy sent me a picture of dany's expression at the very end, and Viscerys' expression as he was losing his temper, and they both make exactly the same facial expression, with slightly pursed lips and a thin smile, chin slightly raised, and almost the hint of a clenched eyebrow... That _can't _have been a coincidence. Emilia Clarke has come a _long_ way as an actress from here "where are my dragons?!?" days.

EDIT - this was worth the trouble of emailing it to myself, in fact. She nailed this:


----------



## Xaios

Drew said:


> I don't have the picture handy, it was sent to me as a text, and a google search isn't turning up anything... but a buddy sent me a picture of dany's expression at the very end, and Viscerys' expression as he was losing his temper, and they both make exactly the same facial expression, with slightly pursed lips and a thin smile, chin slightly raised, and almost the hint of a clenched eyebrow... That _can't _have been a coincidence. Emilia Clarke has come a _long_ way as an actress from here "where are my dragons?!?" days.
> 
> EDIT - this was worth the trouble of emailing it to myself, in fact. She nailed this:
> View attachment 69551


That's actually pretty impressive.


----------



## PunkBillCarson

Drew said:


> Totally disagree. Tyrion made almost verbatim the same argument I'd been making all last week in this thread - the only difference between what Dany did in King's Landing and what she did in literally every other season in this show is all those _other_ times, we thought all the people she lit on fire _deserved_ to burn. She didn't "snap" so much as probably never had a moral compass to begin with, and a totally fair question here is if _anyone_ should have that kind of power.
> 
> I thought the episode was... fine, I guess. Bran was stupid; that's the ultimate participation trophy. Everything else was probably roughly what we all expected, was well shot (the final scene tracking Dany, Arya, and Sansa was beautifully executed), and the small council and Tyrion's ommission in the story provided some fun comedic touches. I've been saying all season that we have to stop pretending _Game of Thrones_ is _A Song of Ice and Fire_ and I think if you can do that it becomes a lot easier to appreciate the show on its own merits - a show with some flaws and some big plot holes, but some truly memorable scenes, spectacular characters, and brought us a couple inspired actors and actresses.
> 
> 
> This actually has me thinking maybe the series wasn't all abd, for what it's worth - there was a similar backlash from men about Arya killing the Night's King, and if everyone's pissed, maybe it was the best compromise we could hope for.
> 
> Idunno. Gaslighting is definitely a thing, but that doesn't also preclude a woman from being a tyrannical despot. It can go either way.
> 
> I don't have the picture handy, it was sent to me as a text, and a google search isn't turning up anything... but a buddy sent me a picture of dany's expression at the very end, and Viscerys' expression as he was losing his temper, and they both make exactly the same facial expression, with slightly pursed lips and a thin smile, chin slightly raised, and almost the hint of a clenched eyebrow... That _can't _have been a coincidence. Emilia Clarke has come a _long_ way as an actress from here "where are my dragons?!?" days.
> 
> EDIT - this was worth the trouble of emailing it to myself, in fact. She nailed this:
> View attachment 69551




I FUCKING KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT SMILE! I asked my wife if she looked a bit like Viserys in that moment and she said that she did but here I was just thinking we were the only ones. Thank you, now I know I'm not crazy... or at least as crazy as I thought I was.


----------



## Drew

Xaios said:


> That's actually pretty impressive.





PunkBillCarson said:


> I FUCKING KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT SMILE! I asked my wife if she looked a bit like Viserys in that moment and she said that she did but here I was just thinking we were the only ones. Thank you, now I know I'm not crazy... or at least as crazy as I thought I was.


Honestly, Emilia Clarke has become a HELL of an actress. Props to her, and props to whoever first spotted that.


----------



## vick1000

Brandon Stark is an evil A.I., and S8 is predication for our society.


----------



## Seabeast2000

vick1000 said:


> Brandon Stark is an evil A.I., and S8 is predication for our society.



"Open the castle door Bran"
"I'm sorry Davos, I can't do that"


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Anomaly Inc on YouTube has been doing a series of videos analyzing the episodes from Season 8 to prove his opinion that D&D are perhaps the worst writers for TV/film in history. He isn't a GOT or ASOIAF channel. He is just your typical nerdy media, film, TV, video game review type of channel, and he hasn't analyzed GOT before. But this series of videos that he has been doing for just this season has taken off.

Anyway, we're all been waiting for his take on the final episode. And here it is. It's an hour of just tearing apart D&D.



Also, it appears that the prequels are being put on hold due to backlash. A pilot is being produced for one of the prequels; and based on audience reaction, HBO will go from there on whether or not to greenlight that prequel.





And lastly, it looks like GRRM might be finally getting _The Winds of Winter_ published by mid-2020?


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

Drew said:


> Honestly, Emilia Clarke has become a HELL of an actress. Props to her, and props to whoever first spotted that.


Quite the antithesis. She started out strong and got better, of course, (definitely noted around the middle seasons of the series,) but as her character fell to shit, so did her acting. Some of her scenes in the final season were so abysmal and cringe-worthy.


----------



## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Anyway, we're all been waiting for his take on the final episode. And here it is. It's an hour of just tearing apart D&D.



Can't wait for his screenplay.


----------



## Jason B

narad said:


> Can't wait for his screenplay.



Valley of the Dolls III.


----------



## thesnowdog




----------



## Emperor Guillotine

As someone who works in TV production, I honestly don't even think that there was a pitchdeck presented by D&D to HBO execs about this final season...because, man...execs at HBO seem to be defending the abhorrent final season of their biggest show/content (now their biggest flop) tooth and nail.

But it seems like Casey Bloys (President of Programming at HBO) is finally coming around. His last line in this statement kind of confirms what D&D were obviously doing.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The way the Night King story ended has turned a lot of people off a prequel show. I can't imagine it would do that well.



This is hilarious! You will need to pause to read it though cause its a bit fast.


----------



## wankerness

Emperor Guillotine said:


> But it seems like Casey Bloys (President of Programming at HBO) is finally coming around. His last line in this statement kind of confirms what D&D were obviously doing.
> 
> View attachment 69675



How does that confirm anything? I see absolutely no hint in that comment that he hated the last season and thinks it was rushed. I'm sure he doesn't think it was considering the extra time allotted to it. I would assume a more likely elaboration would be "to live up to the high standard of this season and every season!!"


----------



## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> As someone who works in TV production, I honestly don't even think that there was a pitchdeck presented by D&D to HBO execs about this final season...because, man...execs at HBO seem to be defending the abhorrent final season of their biggest show/content (now their biggest flop) tooth and nail.
> 
> But it seems like Casey Bloys (President of Programming at HBO) is finally coming around. His last line in this statement kind of confirms what D&D were obviously doing.
> 
> View attachment 69675



"We don't want to put out bad TV"
"SEE!! EVERYONE HATES SEASON 8!!"

I mean, you see what you want to see.

I feel like people need to realize when they're in the niche. Like when on SSO there's some sort of semi-consensus of what options should be on guitars, and companies still put out black super strats with EMGs and floyds, and everyone is all, "WHY DONT THEY LISTEN!?". They do listen. To the actual market. Of which we represent a teensy piece.

Maybe many people were in some ways disappointed by season 8, but this cadre of aggressive youtubers and redditors is a tiny fraction. The petition to remake season 8 seems especially oblivious to this.

The GoT situation is always quite unique in that I don't remember previous shows getting so personal at the creators. Maybe you don't like how Dexter ended (it was terrible) but I don't know the names of the people behind those decisions, because people were generally willing to accept ... I don't know... their place? As an audience? And not people personally wronged by the creators of the show.

The way the GoT commentary goes, it doesn't sound so much like GoT ended badly, but that there is a GoT ending that exists out there that is brilliant and ties everything together perfectly and makes everyone happy, and these two fucktards didn't give it to us. It's a weird bit of psychology. I'm not sure why it's now and not previously, if it can all be chalked up to social media circlejerks or just how much the internet has become a medium for anger-based content.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

narad said:


> The petition to remake season 8 seems especially oblivious to this.


See, the thing is that the petition isn't meant to be taken literally. The signers know that HBO isn't going to dump the money into hiring another production company (or re-hiring Bighead, Littlehead) in order to remake an entire new series. The petition is just a statement showcasing how many people are frustrated.

Factor in the mass number of unsubscriptions from HBO (at least a million), and it ought to show the fallout from this. Yes, you're right in saying that the people doing this are *perhaps *a "tiny fraction" of the overall market; however, I'm seeing far, far, FAR more disappointment and general negativity expressed all over the internet (and even in the mainstream mass media who isn't sucking off Hollywood this time) to the point that it seems like the predominant opinion is that the final season is total shit. The final season of GOT is being heralded as one of the biggest TV disappointments of all time in the mainstream media.



narad said:


> The GoT situation is always quite unique in that I don't remember previous shows getting so personal at the creators. Maybe you don't like how Dexter ended (it was terrible) but I don't know the names of the people behind those decisions, because people were generally willing to accept ... I don't know... their place? As an audience?


Dexter was never as big as GOT. That's the thing.

The original ASOIAF books are a 23+ year legacy by GRRM that have been read and loved by multiple generations. GOT was the biggest show on television for a solid run of years, and the series broke new ground (in terms of storytelling and technical achievement) a handful of times. _Dexter_ never did any of that. It was just a trending series for a few years.



narad said:


> The way the GoT commentary goes, it doesn't sound so much like GoT ended badly, but that there is a GoT ending that exists out there that is brilliant and ties everything together perfectly and makes everyone happy, and these two fucktards didn't give it to us.


Ok, now from this statement I can confirm that you haven't been reading into the backlash.

The issue that fans have doesn't revolve around the ending. Sure, the ending that we got sucked in the opinions of many, but the issue is that this was rushed, miserable, piss-poor storytelling. Innumerable holes all over every episode, the outright denial of basic logic, the outright denial of natural forces, so much skipped or left out due to pure laziness and incompetence, characters not acting like themselves that we have seen over nearly ten years, characters turning on a dime because the writers didn't know what else to do (meaning that there was no gradual buildup - character changes "just happened" for the sake of convenience to further the plot), random events "just happening" for the sake of convenience to further the plot, time jumps and teleporting galore, no *emotionally satisfying *ending, etc.

Fans would've accepted the final ending of the series (regardless of whatever ending that might've been) if it had been correctly built up and presented properly, meaning if the story was told properly and competently in a way that made it believable and made sense. That way, there could at least maybe be some logic, some sense, and some emotional satisfaction. Again, this was just utterly piss-poor storytelling.

Storytelling is a cornerstone of human society. It's honestly not that hard to do. But when your profession is to be a paid storyteller and you fuck it up this badly?...especially with a series that was once the biggest show on TV that so many people loved?...yeah, it's no wonder that there is such extreme negative backlash.


----------



## wankerness

There's a whole ton of entitlement and rage going on here, but to address one specific point:

"It's being heralded as one of the biggest disappointments of all time in the mainstream media!!!"

If you haven't noticed, angry content gets clicks and the content follows what makes the money. Yes, a lot of people on the internet are mad. Yes, they're the same ones that are going to click on an article and leave comments continuing to bitch about it. Yes, that's how the sites make their money. No, the millions of people that had opinions from the range of "were disappointed and got on with their lives" through "loved it" are not going to fuel the same attention. This is a self-perpetuating machine, too, because then the sites get to write follow-up articles ABOUT the comments, fueling more comments, etcetcetc. And then when that dies down, they'll get to write "ACTUALLY, it was good, and the reaction was overblown!" articles and start a whole new self-perpetuating article/comment cycle again! Woo! It's TLJ all over again! Down to people misreading interview quotes in ludicrous ways to try and do "gotcha" moments, like your bizarre quote from the HBO dude that you say shows that he thought it was awful. Or when people post Emilia Clarke saying "best finale ever??" in a joking way that was VERY OBVIOUSLY her just playing that she thought Daenerys should have been the winner, cause that was her character!! Kinda like when they'd play that Mark Hamill quote about not liking the direction Luke was going in the script (while carefully removing all context and pausing it before the next sentence).

You are constantly speaking in these sweeping generalizations with careful wording to imply EVERYONE that's a fan feels the same way as you do. Surprise, the vast majority of everyone doesn't care anymore, and a lot of people even thought it was fine. The AV Club, one of the whiniest sites on the internet (as well as possibly the biggest name-recognition site when it comes to TV reviews), even gave pretty positive reviews to the finale from both of their reviewers.

It just all seems so exhausting to be this mad. Jeez. If/when the books ever come out and GRR Martin ends it just as badly, then I'll be curious to see what the "fan" reaction is. Will they try to crucify him, too? Maybe (if they haven't died of old age by then, anyway). Will there be tons of articles everywhere about how bad the book is? I'm guessing probably not, cause the percentage of people that watch the show that actually read/care about the books is not very big. Yet, almost everyone furious about this season seems to have very strong opinions about them. Curious, that.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

wankerness said:


> There's a whole ton of entitlement and rage going on here.


Agreed, but come on, _The Last Jedi_ got the same negative backlash. Only difference is that _The Last Jedi_ dealt with massive fallout from _Star Wars_ fans. _Game of Thrones_ is having a larger fallout because the show was cultivated and geared towards "normies" (for want of a better term). So we are seeing more disappointment all over, expressed in various ways.



wankerness said:


> "It's being heralded as one of the biggest disappointments of all time in the mainstream media!!!"
> 
> If you haven't noticed, angry content gets clicks and the content follows what makes the money. Yes, a lot of people on the internet are mad. Yes, they're the same ones that are going to click on an article and leave comments continuing to bitch about it. Yes, that's how the sites make their money. No, the millions of people that had opinions from the range of "were disappointed and got on with their lives" through "loved it" are not going to fuel the same attention. This is a self-perpetuating machine, too [...]


You're absolutely right, wank. However, with that said, I work in TV and film production. The networks (even the big conglomerates), the production companies, people whom I've worked with or worked under (GOT fans and non-GOT fans) are all saying about how shitty the final season was. I've seen and heard so much of it outside of the internet from people who work in that specific field.

A lot of the mainstream media production companies and news sources even *want to* report that it was horrible because they see the merit (or lack of) in it, but they *have to* suck off Hollywood because "media agenda". I'm telling you this as someone who works in the industry with various production companies.



wankerness said:


> like your bizarre quote from the HBO dude that you say shows that he thought it was awful.


Nope. Nope. Nope. Let's read that quote again.







He never says that it was "awful". He just says that: _"I think the last thing fans want is something that was rushed out just to make it to air."_ We can use context clues here or even subcontext to infer that he was admitting (amidst all of the fallout) that the final season of _Game of Thrones_ was indeed "rushed out just to make it to air". Yes, HBO offered D&D more time and more episodes. But D&D wanted to rush it, and HBO just went along with it as the distributor who ordered the episodes and footed the bill. As the network, HBO should've known better and shouldn't have settled for such shitty quality in storytelling. Seems like at least someone over there has seen it.



wankerness said:


> You are constantly speaking in these sweeping generalizations with careful wording to imply EVERYONE that's a fan feels the same way as you do.


No offense, my guy, but that absolutely isn't true, and you know it.

I've made no sweeping generalizations. I've just said that fans are pissed. Not "all fans". I've simply said that people who are fans can like the ending and the ultimate outcome and have a different opinion than me (in which case, I did not, personally, like the final season). No one is "right" nor "wrong" here because there is no "right" or "wrong".



wankerness said:


> Will there be tons of articles everywhere about how bad the book is? I'm guessing probably not, cause the percentage of people that watch the show that actually read/care about the books is not very big. Yet, almost everyone furious about this season seems to have very strong opinions about them. Curious, that.


Probably not because majority of Americans don't read.  As for the rest of the world in other countries, I cannot say.

Also, GOT = 10 years, and ASOIAF = 23+ years, give or take with GRRM baiting fans and not fulfilling promises on release dates over and over and over again. I'm pretty certain that any negative backlash from ASOIAF would be even more severe just based on time investment (which, of course, varies from fan to fan and reader to reader).


----------



## vick1000

Print to screen sucks on the average, what did you think would happen when they ran out of the print?


----------



## possumkiller

I never watched a single episode.


----------



## wankerness

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Also, GOT = 10 years, and ASOIAF = 23+ years, give or take with GRRM baiting fans and not fulfilling promises on release dates over and over and over again. I'm pretty certain that any negative backlash from ASOIAF would be even more severe just based on time investment (which, of course, varies from fan to fan and reader to reader).



Probably. I guess it's just going to be a whimper instead of a bang based on how few people there are that will still care by then. If "then" ever happens. I hope it does, for the sake of all the fans! But I'm not optimistic that he's going to finish it before he dies given how much other stuff he has going on and how out of shape he looks.

Eh. This whole thing just makes me so tired and annoyed. I should stop posting about it. I didn't love it, but I can't really judge my reaction to it until I watch it again, and I don't think I'll do that until the blu-ray comes out in several months. I'll probably be underwhelmed all over again, though Battle of Winterfell I'm sure will be improved with actual good picture quality. I think 4, 5 and 6 improved slightly on rewatches cause I didn't have as much time to sit there and think on what had happened each week. But, I think last season was similar - I really liked it up until the "capture a zombie!" episode, which was as dumb as everyone says.


----------



## bostjan

At the rate GRRM is going, it'll be 203X before ASoIaF gets an ending, and that's not being hyperbolic.

I thought The Last Jedi was dumb, I hated the ending of Dexter, and I thought How I Met Your Mother felt extremely rushed at the end, but GoT was passable. It was like a show that started out as a B+, brought it up to an A, but then went back down to a C+ on the final project and the exam. Seeing as how I started watching it at the beginning, I wasn't sure I was going to love it.

The HBO guy saying not to rush things and the implication that the final season was rushed doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm wrong, IDK, but it took 2 years to make 6 episodes- that's not rushed production. And I highly doubt that many people cared about a coffee cup or a couple of barely visible water bottles.

The way I see it is that the arguments about bad writing are either petty, misinformed, or hardly consequential. I mean, if the Star Wars writers had done the ending, Jon would have probably had a heart attack in the Privy and the Battle of Winterfell would have ended with Arya jumping to light speed and blowing up all of the White Walkers. If it had been the Dexter people, Jon would have unceremoniously killed Dany, had Drogon carry her body to the sea, then moved North to become a lumberjack... wait, ...?! LOL


----------



## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> A lot of the mainstream media production companies and news sources even *want to* report that it was horrible because they see the merit (or lack of) in it, but they *have to* suck off Hollywood because "media agenda". I'm telling you this as someone who works in the industry with various production companies.



Now we've even got conspiracy theories for how universally hated a Game of Thrones season was.


----------



## gnoll

I thought season 8 was very, very bad. I thought the writing was remarkably bad and a lot (almost all) of the characters handled very poorly. I thought many things didn't make sense and I thought the ending was very unsatisfying emotionally.

I'm not angry and I haven't voiced this anywhere else on the internet, because I just don't care that much. I briefly talked about the finale with a few people irl, who also thought it sucked.

I hope that doesn't make me "entitled" or "toxic" or whatever. Seems like that tends to happen if you don't like something these days.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

narad said:


> Now we've even got conspiracy theories for how universally hated a Game of Thrones season was.








Question: do you legitimately think before you type? Or do you just try to immediately negate anything anyone else says by typing like a douche?

Again, I work in TV and film production; and I'm talking about when people at a company approach me and say something along the lines of: "Yeah, we want to tell the world how shitty this season was, we thought it was shitty too. But, you know, we have to report what's given to us. End of story."



gnoll said:


> I hope that doesn't make me "entitled" or "toxic" or whatever. Seems like that tends to happen if you don't like something these days.


It's the dumbass culture that we live in nowadays, man. Everyone has to like everything; and if you don't, then you're essentially seen as shitting on someone's party. We all have to get along perfectly and avoid conflict or confrontation.


----------



## wankerness

People don’t care if people don’t like a thing, it’s when things like mass screeching and fuckin PETITIONS TO CHANGE A THING exist that the backlash against the backlash happens. No one gave a shit when everyone hated say, Terminator Genisys or Batman v Superman. TLJ and GoT are on a different planet in terms of unreasonable reactions from a very loud minority ruining it for all the people that didn’t like it in a regular person way.


----------



## vick1000

wankerness said:


> People don’t care if people don’t like a thing, it’s when things like mass screeching and fuckin PETITIONS TO CHANGE A THING exist that the backlash against the backlash happens. No one gave a shit when everyone hated say, Terminator Genisys or Batman v Superman. TLJ and GoT are on a different planet in terms of unreasonable reactions from a very loud minority ruining it for all the people that didn’t like it in a regular person way.


The level of suck was just that epic, nothing else compares.

EPIC suckage.


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## wankerness

vick1000 said:


> The level of suck was just that epic, nothing else compares.
> 
> EPIC suckage.



I'd rewatch this season 10 times over Suicide Squad or Ghostbusters 2016 again, two other recent failures that got nowhere near the crying but were vastly worse


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## KnightBrolaire

It's pretty telling for me when both of my parents hated the last season, especially since they were both pretty casual fans. Both of them managed to pick up on the poor pacing, weird teleporting from the north to kings landing, the iron fleet ambush, and most of the other major quibbles that more hardcore fans had.


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## vick1000

wankerness said:


> I'd rewatch this season 10 times over Suicide Squad or Ghostbusters 2016 again, two other recent failures that got nowhere near the crying but were vastly worse


No arguement from me.


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## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Question: do you legitimately think before you type? Or do you just try to immediately negate anything anyone else says by typing like a douche?



Nope. The douche neuron fires and I must oblige.



Emperor Guillotine said:


> *Again, I work in TV and film production;* and I'm talking about when people at a company approach me and say something along the lines of: "Yeah, we want to tell the world how shitty this season was, we thought it was shitty too. But, you know, we have to report what's given to us. End of story."



Yea, we know. You mention it in _every_ post lol It's likely to become a square in SSO bingo.

Where I roll my eyes is wondering how you think working in film/TV leads you to believe you have special insider access to what the global or critical consensus is on the final season. You have special information that all the mainstream news outlets are just dying to report on how bad the GoT final season was?? C'mon man, you're being ridiculous.

I mean honestly, listen to yourself:

But it seems like Casey Bloys (President of Programming at HBO) is finally coming around. His last line in this statement kind of confirms what D&D were obviously doing.

He just says that: _"I think the last thing fans want is something that was rushed out just to make it to air."_ We can use context clues here or even subcontext to infer that he was admitting (amidst all of the fallout) that the final season of _Game of Thrones_ was indeed "rushed out just to make it to air"

From the same interview:

Bloys:
"I think everybody had hopes for where the characters might go or should go. But Dan and David have had a plan for how they wanted the show to go for a long time, and they did it the way they thought fit as creators. *I think they did a spectacular job.* They landed a big plane, which was not easy. You are never going to keep everybody happy, but I don’t think that’s what they were trying to do."

I don't need to read between the lines here. I just read the actual lines. If the president of HBO wants to insult D&D, they can just do that directly. They don't play it out "discretely" as a wink in a public outlet to confirm to die-hard fans the secret truth that they already know.


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## Emperor Guillotine

narad said:


> Where I roll my eyes is wondering how you think working in film/TV leads you to believe you have special insider access to what the global or critical consensus is on the final season. You have special information that all the mainstream news outlets are just dying to report on how bad the GoT final season was?? C'mon man, you're being ridiculous.
> 
> I mean honestly, listen to yourself:
> 
> But it seems like Casey Bloys (President of Programming at HBO) is finally coming around. His last line in this statement kind of confirms what D&D were obviously doing.
> 
> He just says that: _"I think the last thing fans want is something that was rushed out just to make it to air."_ We can use context clues here or even subcontext to infer that he was admitting (amidst all of the fallout) that the final season of _Game of Thrones_ was indeed "rushed out just to make it to air"
> 
> From the same interview:
> 
> Bloys:
> "I think everybody had hopes for where the characters might go or should go. But Dan and David have had a plan for how they wanted the show to go for a long time, and they did it the way they thought fit as creators. *I think they did a spectacular job.* They landed a big plane, which was not easy. You are never going to keep everybody happy, but I don’t think that’s what they were trying to do."
> 
> I don't need to read between the lines here. I just read the actual lines. If the president of HBO wants to insult D&D, they can just do that directly. They don't play it out "discretely" as a wink in a public outlet to confirm to die-hard fans the secret truth that they already know.


A president of the network/distributor company that ordered the series *is not* a media outlet or entertainment news outlet.

You're legitimately taking two separate posts I made *that have nothing to do with each other* and trying to use them to piece something together because you want to conjure up some kind of pseudo-argument in attempts to validate your douchbaggery. It's kind of sad, actually.


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## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> A president of the network/distributor company that ordered the series *is not* a media outlet or entertainment news outlet.
> 
> You're legitimately taking two separate posts I made *that have nothing to do with each other* and trying to use them to piece something together because you want to conjure up some kind of pseudo-argument in attempts to validate your douchbaggery. It's kind of sad, actually.



Sorry, these were two separate points of you being silly, not a linear argument, and I didn't clearly separate them. 

It's more like (a) your biases cause you to leap to unwarranted and invalid conclusions (in thinking that Bloys is admitting D&D rushed GoT), and that's why it's (b) not surprising that you generalize from a couple people you know to making claims about having deep insights regarding the GoT mainstream media situation as a whole. Hope that clears things up.


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## Drew

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Anomaly Inc on YouTube has been doing a series of videos analyzing the episodes from Season 8 to prove his opinion that D&D are perhaps the worst writers for TV/film in history.


I'm sorry, but that's some pretty extreme hyperbole there.  Season 8 had its issues, sure, and I had some big problems with Season 7 that I've eluded to in this thread. I'l even go so far as to agree that I was a bit disappointed and the season fell short of my hopes, for sure. But worst writers in TV history? There's some trully _awful_ television out there, you can't possibly be serious. 

GoT was a great series, and it definitely fell off at the end. But even having fallen off it was still rather decent TV, and if you want to talk about series that have jumped the shark before (for me, Littlefinger's death was that moment), well, there's a LONG history of that happening in television, starting with that exact phrase. 



narad said:


> The way the GoT commentary goes, it doesn't sound so much like GoT ended badly, but that there is a GoT ending that exists out there that is brilliant and ties everything together perfectly and makes everyone happy, and these two fucktards didn't give it to us. It's a weird bit of psychology. I'm not sure why it's now and not previously, if it can all be chalked up to social media circlejerks or just how much the internet has become a medium for anger-based content.


This is kind of where I'm coming at it, too. I suspect one of the problems here is GRRM has created a situation where even he doesn't know how he's going to end it, which is why we STILL don't have a Winds of Winter. He knows where he wants to go, he just doesn't know how to get there. I'm not sure there IS an ending that would respect the scenario Martin created in the books, that would be satisfying to the fans. Even before the show ran out of books, there was a lot of speculation Martin may have painted himself into a corner. And as far as how the fan reaction will be to GRRM's ending, I've heard a lot of people upset about Dance With Dragons already, so they'll probably be pissed off too.  

Idunno. Not liking how this ended is fine, you're allowed to. Voicing that opinion is fine too. But arguing this is the worst television writing ever, that's where you start to lose me.


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## crankyrayhanky

wankerness said:


> I'd rewatch this season 10 times over Suicide Squad or Ghostbusters 2016 again, two other recent failures that got nowhere near the crying but were vastly worse



There was a huge negative reaction to those 2 movies. 
It wasn't as huge as GoT because the movies sucked from start to finish. I'm rewatching season 1 GoT now and it is shocking the disparity of how well it is written. Knowing how great it was and then seeing it devolve after George RR stopped helping with the scripts (and the writer shortened season idea to be done with it quickly) is the reason that this show is getting an epic hate reaction. You can't have the hate without the love. 

Those 2 movies listed never had any love, lol.


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## BIG ND SWEATY

Imagine being the kind of dick that has to make a full Youtube series breaking down why you should hate seasons 5-8. Its a fuckin show, it ain't that deep.


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## jaxadam

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> Imagine being the kind of dick that has to make a full Youtube series breaking down why you should hate seasons 5-8. Its a fuckin show, it ain't that deep.



:high five:


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## thesnowdog

So you weren't impressed by Tyrion's ramble about the importance of stories either then?


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## EMTY

thesnowdog said:


> So you weren't impressed by Tyrion's ramble about the importance of stories either then?



Not that I have a stake in the heated discussion going on, but I quite liked that segment..


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## Dayviewer

Until a month ago I only saw bits and pieces of the show here and there when friends/family were watching and I knew the memes.
I just finished watching the whole thing, I liked it!

It was quite interesting as I knew a lot of key points up front from just having heard people talk about it over the years, but it was still fun and enjoyable overall.
I mean, I thought the shocking red wedding was gonna be Joffreys one  

For me the last 2 seasons (and especially the last one) were lacking, with my biggest question mark being sansa and arya suddenly getting back at littlefingers own game.
but all the outrage, come on, it’s a tv show 
I do get it though, people have followed it all closely for years etc, so I guess they were a bit more invested compared to me binging it all away in a few weeks.
Then again, I’m still pretty rational about The Last Jedi too, so I’m not easily losing my shit I guess.


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## Drew

Dayviewer said:


> Until a month ago I only saw bits and pieces of the show here and there when friends/family were watching and I knew the memes.
> I just finished watching the whole thing, I liked it!
> 
> It was quite interesting as I knew a lot of key points up front from just having heard people talk about it over the years, but it was still fun and enjoyable overall.
> I mean, I thought the shocking red wedding was gonna be Joffreys one
> 
> For me the last 2 seasons (and especially the last one) were lacking, with my biggest question mark being sansa and arya suddenly getting back at littlefingers own game.
> but all the outrage, come on, it’s a tv show
> I do get it though, people have followed it all closely for years etc, so I guess they were a bit more invested compared to me binging it all away in a few weeks.
> Then again, I’m still pretty rational about The Last Jedi too, so I’m not easily losing my shit I guess.


Hate to resurrect this, but yeah, this is almost exactly how I feel.

There are some pretty big plot issues that I feel like could have been easily (or, at least, non-prohibitively) worked out and at a minimum I myself can think of a few slightly better ways to tie all the loose ends together than what we were given. Are there some major, major plot issues that the show glossed over? Of course.

Was it still fun, entertaining TV? Yeah, absolutely. We just have to keep in mind that "Game of Thrones" is no longer "A Song of Ice and Fire," and even then hardcore fans have been accusing GRRM of jumping the shark on ASOIAF since at least the fourth book. Whatever, I still enjoyed watching Dany torch a city, the Night King's death may not have felt earned but was entertaining as hell, and the kingsmoot at the end was stupid but whatever, this was the show that brought us Hodor holding the door, the Red Wedding, and Oberyn Martel dueling the Mountain, I can forgive a 6.5/10 landing on an otherwise solid 9/10 performance.

At a minimum, the fact that the last season was fairly marred from a plot perspective makes me a lot less sad that the show is over than I might have otherwise been. 

I'm also 100% with you that the moment the show jumped the shark was the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger twist, which only works because things were happening offscreen between major characters that were being hidden from the viewers. It was a completely unearned twist, vs something like the Red Wedding, where it was a surprise to the viewers just as much as it was to the protagonists.


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