# I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC... and we've got a dirty secret...



## ZeroSignal (Sep 8, 2010)

RAISE Hope for Congo

I've already sent the top manufacturers and email expressing my disappointment.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

Wow, very interesting. Thanks for the info.


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## rectifryer (Sep 8, 2010)

This is fucking retarded. How do you think this place will become "conflict free"? Thats right, America fucking goes in in an empirical fashion. No one will be behind us. They will simply see it as us expanding our empire.

Otherwise, sure, we can just stop buying the stuff. Then the entire economy of the area goes even more down the shitter. These people are violent because of their culture. It has jack shit to do with what they're fighting over currently.

I genuinely disagree with this given the facts presented.


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## Scar Symmetry (Sep 8, 2010)

I agree with South Park, "activists are totally gay".


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## jymellis (Sep 8, 2010)

dont forget, they then dump the electronic trash in the streams of china.


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## Cabinet (Sep 8, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> I genuinely disagree with this given the facts presented.


I don't think it's possible to argue with facts. However it is entirely possible to argue against their objective.

I think that these minerals are a more economical thing to fight over, but there is more than money involved with all that killing that's taking place over there.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> *These people* are violent because of their culture.



And there's where you lose the argument.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 8, 2010)

Pretty sure these electronic companies get these minerals for a fraction of the price of what they're worth, so going in there and making it fair and cleaning things up will only make the cost of electronic good sky rocket. Companies will have to pay fairer prices than they were before, and they'll change their product prices to match. 

It's messy as fuck, and it isn't going to change any time soon.


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## Moro (Sep 8, 2010)

I understand the point, but this one seems like a very, very uphill fight. 

As Cabinet says, there is more than money involved in this issue. However, these minerals are a good part of it, as they become the income armed rebels use to supply themselves with weapons. 

Whatever the case may be, it's very curious to me how the UN just doesn't give a shit about this kinds of things. They only get involved when there's not much need of them. The UN is not living up to the values it was founded to, they're a joke.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 8, 2010)

Randy said:


> And there's where you lose the argument.



How so exactly? Not saying you're wrong, or that he's right, just seeking some clarification how the term "these people" instantly negates his argument causing him to "lose".


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## ElRay (Sep 8, 2010)

Oh the [hypocrisy|irony|sheep-like tunnel vision] (pick at least one).

The video was most likely recorded on a camera that uses/was built by machines using "conflict" minerals (CM), edited on a computer that uses/was built by machines using CM, uploaded through network hardware that uses/was built by machines using CM, to a server farm that uses/was built by machines using CM, downloaded through network hardware that uses/was built by machines using CM to your local machine that uses/was built by machines using CM, which is sitting on some reasonably horizontal work surface that uses/was built by machines using CM, in some structure that uses/was built by machines using CM, which has its electricity generated and delivered by equipment and/or personnel using equipment that uses/was built by machines using CM.

If you want to put your conveniences where your mouth is, go ahead and contact every product/service provider you utilize, ask them for their "non-CM certification" and stop using them if they can't provide one. If not, don't go the half-assed, bitch about a product you don't use anyway, while ignoring the reality that you're already using "tainted" stuff, but are simply oblivious to the fact route.

Ray


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 8, 2010)

ElRay said:


> Oh the [hypocrisy|irony|sheep-like tunnel vision] (pick at least one).
> 
> The video was most likely recorded on a camera that uses/was built by machines using "conflict" minerals (CM), edited on a computer that uses/was built by machines using CM, uploaded through network hardware that uses/was built by machines using CM, to a server farm that uses/was built by machines using CM, downloaded through network hardware that uses/was built by machines using CM to your local machine that uses/was built by machines using CM, which is sitting on some reasonably horizontal work surface that uses/was built by machines using CM, in some structure that uses/was built by machines using CM, which has its electricity generated and delivered by equipment and/or personnel using equipment that uses/was built by machines using CM.
> 
> ...


 
So if all paper came from unsustainable forests, we couldn't make posters to tell people about it?


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 8, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> So if all paper came from unsustainable forests, we couldn't make posters to tell people about it?



It's not that you couldn't, it would just be hypocritical.


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## vampiregenocide (Sep 8, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's not that you couldn't, it would just be hypocritical.


 
Sort of, but not to the extent the poster was talking about. You have to tell people about it somehow. It would be putting money in the pocket of the companies sure, but it doesn't take any power from your own statement, if anything it emphasises it; it just shows that there is no alternative, and that this is such a big issue across the market.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 8, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Sort of, but not to the extent the poster was talking about. You have to tell people about it somehow. It would be putting money in the pocket of the companies sure, but it doesn't take any power from your own statement, if anything it emphasises it; it just shows that there is no alternative, and that this is such a big issue across the market.



So it's hypocritical for a good reason. Call it what it is and don't hide behind it. If the message is important enough a few moments of hypocrisy aren't going to sink the cause.

Good causes shouldn't have to apologize for being honest.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> How so exactly? Not saying you're wrong, or that he's right, just seeking some clarification how the term "these people" instantly negates his argument causing him to "lose".



There should be some distinction between the militants and the people who they are slaughtering for money and resources.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

ElRay said:


> Oh the [hypocrisy|irony|sheep-like tunnel vision] (pick at least one).
> 
> The video was most likely recorded on a camera that uses/was built by machines using "conflict" minerals (CM), edited on a computer that uses/was built by machines using CM, uploaded through network hardware that uses/was built by machines using CM, to a server farm that uses/was built by machines using CM, downloaded through network hardware that uses/was built by machines using CM to your local machine that uses/was built by machines using CM, which is sitting on some reasonably horizontal work surface that uses/was built by machines using CM, in some structure that uses/was built by machines using CM, which has its electricity generated and delivered by equipment and/or personnel using equipment that uses/was built by machines using CM.
> 
> ...



Or hypothetically, you could just decide that since you can't change everything about everybody overnight... why do anything at all when you can instead just carry on business as usual like a cynical prick. Hypothetically. 

Too many people quick to slander the messenger at the expense of slandering the message; throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just because it _does_ happen and having some degree of inability to avoid some bit of it doesn't mean everyone's either a hypocrite for narrowly partaking or a pipe-dreaming idealist for advocating the "impossible". Sorry, I'm not that jaded.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 8, 2010)

Randy said:


> There should be some distinction between the militants and the people who they are slaughtering for money and resources.



I think in the context of what he was saying is that those who are militant aren't going to just stop killing the innocent just because the resource they're _currently_ all fighting over just disappears/loses all value. They'll just keep on killing each other over something else, and taking advantage of those who can't defend themselves. The history of violence in Central Africa is about blood feuds and revenge, the resources just help fund the carnage, whether it's ore, diamonds, or timber. 

Something needs to be done, but it has to be further reaching then cutting a portion of the militants funding.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

Agreed and agreed. The part of his point and partially yours that I disagree with (to the point the video seemed to be making, IMO) is that there's no sense in helping to fund their activities; if not just for the sake of cutting the money they're taking in, then at least on principal.

EDIT: Also, if his point is supposed to be anywhere near what yours is (again, which I agreed with), then I wouldn't blame "their culture" on the violence; I'd blame the greed. But my take away from his post was that he was just calling the people and the region "violent" and lumping them all in with eachother.


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## rectifryer (Sep 8, 2010)

Cabinet said:


> I don't think it's possible to argue with facts. However it is entirely possible to argue against their objective.


 Thats funny because most people like to argue using facts. Obviously there is some sort of semantic issue here. 


Randy said:


> And there's where you lose the argument.


_culture_ *:* the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; _also_ *:* the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular _culture_> <southern _culture_> 


Looks like the culture of this area is a sun of a bitch. Its vicious. You think greed cant be a part of culture?


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## Customisbetter (Sep 8, 2010)

I'll be honest. I don't give a fuck.

No one in this thread does either, or they would move over there and do something about it.


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 8, 2010)

Wow, I never knew there were so many jaded, cynical, pessimistic old buggers on this forum. 

Anyway, Nintendo just earned my respect for actually replying.



Nintendo said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



EDIT:
New video I was sent:




rectifryer said:


> These people are violent because of their culture.



Who? These guys?







Or these guys?






Or how about these guys?


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

Wow, kudos to Nintendo.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I'll be honest. I don't give a fuck.
> 
> No one in this thread does either, or they would move over there and do something about it.



If you think that's what it takes to "give a fuck" then I'm sorry to hear that. 

I make food to give to local homeless shelters, donate clothes and participate in fundraisers but apparently because I don't give up my house to give to someone else or something to that effect, that means I don't give a shit about that either, right?


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## rectifryer (Sep 8, 2010)

^^^ I do to. I volunteer alot. 

Anyways, I dont understand what you are getting at with the maps.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 8, 2010)

Randy said:


> If you think that's what it takes to "give a fuck" then I'm sorry to hear that.
> 
> I make food to give to local homeless shelters, donate clothes and participate in fundraisers but apparently because I don't give up my house to give to someone else or something to that effect, that means I don't give a shit about that either, right?



I was making a rash generalization. My apologies for offending you.

EDIT: What does this have to do with the Congo though?


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I was making a rash generalization. My apologies for offending you.
> 
> EDIT: What does this have to do with the Congo though?



My point is that sometimes you can't make a huge impact... maybe not even a dent but you contribute what little bit you can because helping even one person is worth the effort and plus, you lead by example and that's when things really happen. 

Likewise, it can't be expected that if you can't give EVERYTHING, you shouldn't give anything at all. 
That ontopic enough for you?


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> Anyways, I dont understand what you are getting at with the maps.



He's referring to the fact that those three countries have their own histories or cultures of violence.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

I'll tell you what... I'll :fix: this post so that you might understand it better:



ZeroSignal said:


> Who? These guys?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Customisbetter (Sep 8, 2010)

Randy said:


> My point is that sometimes you can't make a huge impact... maybe not even a dent but you contribute what little bit you can because helping even one person is worth the effort and plus, you lead by example and that's when things really happen.
> 
> Likewise, it can't be expected that if you can't give EVERYTHING, you shouldn't give anything at all.
> That ontopic enough for you?



I respect that you still care. I guess I have given up on the world.

Don't mind me I'm just being a dick today. Dunno why.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

No need to apologize. I'm being my own version of a dick today, too. I need to take a chill pill.

For what it's worth, I'm sick of the world myself. Unfortunately, those who aren't are in the minority these days, so every bit helps.


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## rectifryer (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok if you are trying to make a point just state it. THose pics are depictions of well know events in history that are basically unrelated other than you guys dragging them in for your red herring. 

I get it, the holocaust means we shouldnt buy the iPhone. Its so clear now!


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

Your original post sounded like a generalization of people based on the doings of a small group of people, specifically stepping all over those who can't meaningfully protect themselves. The stand out comment was the 'culture of violence'. The point of Ruarc's post and then my own is that our own culture(s) have a history of violence against less than capable opponents; and I don't think it would be fair to characterize us based on those things, no more than it should be right to characterize the people of the Congo for those who oppress them. It's kind of a "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" depiction.

The pictures were supposed to be representations of that point.


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## rectifryer (Sep 8, 2010)

I meant culture in the scope of the last 70 years. Anything farther back is irrelevant given that we werent mining there since computers werent around and all. 

What happens when we boycott the area? Is that really the best choice? Even more people will starve. The coruption is terminal there.


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## Randy (Sep 8, 2010)

All of the sudden, I'm increasingly inclined to agree with the second sentence of Ed's last post.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Sep 8, 2010)

What I find really ironic here is how Bill Gates is donated such a large chunk of money aimed at helping people and then his corporation is doing this.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 9, 2010)

Stealthtastic said:


> What I find really ironic here is how Bill Gates is donated such a large chunk of money aimed at helping people and then his corporation is doing this.



Maybe I missed something, where does it say Microsoft is the direct cause of this?

It seems the OEM makers of electronics equipment, and more specifically their contracted processing plants (ore doesn't magically become material), are who is at fault. The brand they slap on the unit is irrelevant, for the most part. 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Microsoft not actually sell computers? Thus it's not "them" who require the materials, but the machines that later get their software. By that same coin any software developer would be "part of the problem".


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## Razzy (Sep 9, 2010)

Stealthtastic said:


> What I find really ironic here is how Bill Gates is donated such a large chunk of money aimed at helping people and then his corporation is doing this.


 

MicroSOFT makes SOFTware.

As far as I know, there aren't any "conflict" minerals in little plastic discs.


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## IDLE (Sep 9, 2010)

I've pretty much given up on this. I've been yelling about it for what seems like years.

The only way to solve the problem I can see is military occupation. Which won't happen...


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanx for the info!
The main problem with Kongo and other starving/Dying/fighting countries is the mining. 
the U.S.A, U.K, Germany, Austria....all of them have their share in it.
Look at all the weapons they have. Who build them? Who sell them? Who supply the ammo? Who teach to use them?
If any of the above country wanted to stop or control the amount of violence, they would stop the Arms smuggle. Every weapon has a serial number. It is easy to follow who bought where and how. Oh, and they have fucking tanks!!! Hard to just smuggle.
I know one African guy who escaped to Germany. Horrible stories he told. He had to work on mines too.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 9, 2010)

^^^

From what I've read most of their arms come from countries of the former USSR.


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## rectifryer (Sep 9, 2010)

Yeppers^^^^^.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 9, 2010)

> Arms Trade Resource Center
> Not surprisingly, the U.S. has provided weapons and training to most of the players in the Congo conflict.
> 
> U.S. Military Assistance in Africas First World War
> ...


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## rectifryer (Sep 9, 2010)

OK WHATS THE SOURCE?


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 9, 2010)

Huh...



Philips said:


> Dear sir, madam,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



EDIT: Thanks to Randy for being a djentlman and explaining my corner so succinctly while I was AWOL there.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 9, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> OK WHATS THE SOURCE?



Report: U.S. Arms to Africa and the Congo War - World Policy Institute - Research Project | World Policy Institute


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## Randy (Sep 9, 2010)

ZeroSignal said:


> Thanks to Randy for being a djentlman and explaining my corner so succinctly while I was AWOL there.



Not a problem, man. Thanks for turning me onto this and also reaching out to these companies for this information.


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## rectifryer (Sep 9, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Report: U.S. Arms to Africa and the Congo War - World Policy Institute - Research Project | World Policy Institute


NVM I found the part referencing congo.

I realize some countries have collapsed, but we were trying to stall that.

Here we go again, AMERICA bears responsibility for the world's problems because we tried helping in the first place.

Anyways, I dont really trust that website. Its pretty much saying the clinton administration is the source of all of africa's problems.


What I am confused about, is that website suggests we stop supplying weapons to stop the wars there. That would make more sense than boycotting their cheap as hell minerals. So either way........


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## CrushingAnvil (Sep 10, 2010)

This is shit. I'm going to play some guilty fucking playstation.


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 10, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> Here we go again, AMERICA bears responsibility for the world's problems because we tried helping in the first place.



America tried to "help"?


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## rectifryer (Sep 10, 2010)

Well there you go. We clearly disagree on a critical point that is backing this cause. You have sources I dont even remotely trust. Its easy to wrap something in the name of a good cause that is just there to be the face of propaganda. I'm not saying thats your intentions.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 10, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> Well there you go. We clearly disagree on a critical point that is backing this cause. You have sources I dont even remotely trust. Its easy to wrap something in the name of a good cause that is just there to be the face of propaganda. I'm not saying thats your intentions.



How can you help when you deliver weapons to whole bunch of Nations, which fighting each other? You mean helping them kill each other?


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 10, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> How can you help when you deliver weapons to whole bunch of Nations, which fighting each other? You mean helping them kill each other?



I know. I thought about posting that facepalm picture again but I didn't see the point... 

EDIT: Perhaps irony doesn't translate well over teh Intarnetz.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

Regardless of how the weapons got there, the point is, this is something that needs to be stopped. Not just have it's funding cut slightly, from which they'll most likely find another resource or method of getting funds, they've done it before. It's also certainly not going to do anything about the weapons already over there.

That being said, I don't think there is a clear cut way of stopping the carnage. What are we going to do, go in, kill some people, establish a false government, and then watch as everything falls apart in ten years? Even if they're completely exhausted of funds to purchase weaponry, they've [the militias] have shown how much horror they can produce with sticks and machetes. 

We need the whole world to step up to the plate and work on bringing this region out of chaos.

Why does every thread like this turn into an "America is an evil, blood thirsty, war machine which has breed all the evil and problems of the world for the last 100 years." finger pointing bonanza? (Which I'm not exactly saying this is what this particular thread has become.) As true as much of that may be (even though, I was speaking in jest.....for the most part), and we [US] don't exactly have clean hands, how does this help the Congo? We should be focusing on fixing the problem, not who caused it. Save that for when the atrocities stop. You don't put someone on trial for murder while the victim is bleeding, still alive, in the streets.


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Regardless of how the weapons got there, the point is, this is something that needs to be stopped. Not just have it's funding cut slightly, from which they'll most likely find another resource or method of getting funds, they've done it before. It's also certainly not going to do anything about the weapons already over there.
> 
> That being said, I don't think there is a clear cut way of stopping the carnage. What are we going to do, go in, kill some people, establish a false government, and then watch as everything falls apart in ten years? Even if they're completely exhausted of funds to purchase weaponry, they've [the militias] have shown how much horror they can produce with sticks and machetes.
> 
> ...



I agree with your sentiments. I would like to point out that I never tried to point the finger at anyone except the millitias (my previous posts mentioning USA and UK were simply a demonstration of the fallacy in a certain argument).

My grandfather was a peacekeeper in the Congo during the '60s (I think) and he knows first hand how bad it is there TO THIS DAY. We certainly need countries to step up to the plate and sort this shit out, and I do NOT mean "Operation Iraqi 'Freedom'" style. The UN needs to get off their asses again and actually do something for once. I know for a fact that our defence force, with a long history of UN peackeeping operations, would be among the first to step up to the plate.

I know that it clearly can't be solved by one simple act or another, but small things done in concert can change the world.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

Also, I found a few things worth posting:

New laws on conflict materials from the Congo (Directive Decoder)
http://www.ipodnn.com/articles/10/06/28/confesses.no.way.for.suppliers.to.be.sure/
US Law Requires Gadget Makers to Avoid 'Conflict Materials' | NowPublic News Coverage

While it's going to take a long time (relatively speaking of course) for a lot of that legislation to go through and make it's mark, I think it's certainly a step in the right direction. 

Is it perfect? Not at all. Is it _potentially_ better than before/nothing? I think so.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Regardless of how the weapons got there, the point is, this is something that needs to be stopped. Not just have it's funding cut slightly, from which they'll most likely find another resource or method of getting funds, they've done it before. It's also certainly not going to do anything about the weapons already over there.
> 
> That being said, I don't think there is a clear cut way of stopping the carnage. What are we going to do, go in, kill some people, establish a false government, and then watch as everything falls apart in ten years? Even if they're completely exhausted of funds to purchase weaponry, they've [the militias] have shown how much horror they can produce with sticks and machetes.
> 
> ...



Pointing out the U.S.A always come in handy when people claim that "they (as the U.S.A) where helping, tried to "stop" the problems etc. We are the minority as non U.S citizens on here , and we have our own point of view.

We read, hear, discuss other perspectives of the stories than you guys do. In my case, I read news from other sources and languages, which never reach a normal U.S citizen because of the Media coverage and language barrier.
After getting information in more than 4 Languages, and see what happens around the world, it is hard to stay back and watch how people think their land is doing everything for the World Peace, but the h8ers love to hate America, Freedom, and everything America stands for.

It's not like I wait for every possibility to jump, it's only on subjects that are running the contrary of the direction facts are showing me.

But you are totally right about helping first, and asking questions after!


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 10, 2010)

Razzy said:


> MicroSOFT makes SOFTware.
> 
> As far as I know, there aren't any "conflict" minerals in little plastic discs.













and others like

Hardware: PC Mäuse, Tastatur, Webcam und mehr - Microsoft


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

I've been looking online and for the life of me, I can't find the name of any of these OEM builders in China (who seem to be the biggest benefactor in the Conflict Metal trade). 

Has anyone found info on them?


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## rectifryer (Sep 11, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> After getting information in more than 4 Languages, and see what happens around the world, it is hard to stay back and watch how people think their land is doing everything for the World Peace, but the h8ers love to hate America, Freedom, and everything America stands for.


Thats romantic and all, but can you tell what America has to gain by destabilizing countries in Africa? You really think we wave our dick around out of spite? 

First you say, that we destroy nations. Then you say, that we keep regimes in power that are inhumane. So apparently, we go around destroying everything for the sake of it. 

You think it economically helps us to have to deal with violent regimes to get valuable resources? 

None of that makes any sense. 

I am not who you think. I am not someone who watches FOX news or MSN for their daily updates. I have been around the world and I have been volunteering in Africa.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 11, 2010)

I believe both the 360 and that mouse are mostly made by Foxconn, a Chinese company.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 11, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I believe both the 360 and that mouse are mostly made by Foxconn, a Chinese company.



I found Foxconn's CSR: http://www.foxconn.com/ser/2008 Foxconn CSR Report English Version.pdf

According to what it says in the SER section (around page 48), they seem to be against using material suppliers who go against human decency. While, yes, in theory they could be completely full of shit, it does mention their data has been reviewed by a third party and they rely on outside parties to help audit their suppliers. 

It also says they're the world's largest OEM electronics manufacturer.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 11, 2010)

^Which is true. All of the HPs at my work are Foxconn as well as every Macintosh computer.


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## ittoa666 (Sep 11, 2010)

Calling the US evil is serious business.....especially if you don't live there.


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 11, 2010)

ittoa666 said:


> Calling the US evil is serious business.....especially if you don't live there.



Damn... Saddam must have called the US evil... I guess I'm next.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 11, 2010)

Can anyone find reports on Foxconn using Conflict Minerals? I've found a whole bunch of stuff on them having poor working conditions (it is China after all, not excusing it, but just trying to keep it to the main point of this thread), with some more recent articles sighting that conditions are said to have improved, but nothing on conflict materials other than accusations aimed at the companies which Foxconn does work for (namely Apple and Steve Jobs), nothing directly involving Foxconn though.

Slightly related note, apparently Foxconn makes Nokia phones, and Nokia seems to be big on the whole "no conflict minerals" thing. http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/08/26/putting-a-ban-on-conflict-metals/

Just thinking out loud here, this is a guitar forum, I wonder how many conflict minerals find there way into the components inside out guitars, amps, and effects. The tantalum is used in capacitors, and the tin is often used in circuit board construction. Just another thing to think about that may hit many of us guitarists closer to home.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 11, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> Thats romantic and all, but can you tell what America has to gain by destabilizing countries in Africa? You really think we wave our dick around out of spite?
> 
> First you say, that we destroy nations. Then you say, that we keep regimes in power that are inhumane. So apparently, we go around destroying everything for the sake of it.
> 
> ...



Where to begin...

I didn't actually see you as conservative or FOX kind of person. I don't have those Stereotypes in my head. 
What I know is how the problems in Iraq began. How they began in Vietnam, or how the problems are with Venezuela.

There is one certain thing, that noone can deny. America has never problems with Unethical, antidemocratic or Violent Regimes, as long as they get along about cheap resources. Kuwait, The Emirates, The Saudis, Afrikan countries, Long time Turkey etc.

The ones who don't go along well get to a point to get along well.
France and Germany had the "exclusive" rights of Saddams oil. Now the Americans have.

And don't forget the use of Israel.

I mean, I would discuss this with you if it would be only my imagination or I am biased or something. But the whole Europe thinks the same, and Europe is pretty much ally with the U.S.A

Sure, the Brits, The Germans, the French....All of them are full of shit too, so I don't try to save my own ass out of the bad image, but man... This is too obvious and well known.
There is no way to put a clean Image on a country, who even lied in the U.N about Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq....
How could someone argue against this fact?


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 11, 2010)

ittoa666 said:


> Calling the US evil is serious business.....especially if you don't live there.



How some non U.S citizen have to live in the U.S, to know what the U.S does in other lands? 
There is no sense!


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## ittoa666 (Sep 12, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> How some non U.S citizen have to live in the U.S, to know what the U.S does in other lands?
> There is no sense!



Serious business up in here. 

OK. I'm done.


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## rectifryer (Sep 12, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Where to begin...
> 
> I didn't actually see you as conservative or FOX kind of person. I don't have those Stereotypes in my head.
> What I know is how the problems in Iraq began. How they began in Vietnam, or how the problems are with Venezuela.
> ...


 I am saying, economically it doesnt make sense to me. I just dont see the motive. Iraq, possibly, there would be alterior motives. For central africa? What reason would there be? Until I see a reason, I cant believe in this. 

You are saying since country "A" has a history of launching war on resources; that they cause violent conflicts. While in that context that is true, its not necessarily true that they cause all violent conflicts they're involved with. 

You must remember, politicians are lobbied in the USA. The main lobbyists are big oil. It would do us no good to piss opec off. We may have rights on paper but in the end that oil is for the middle east. 

America has a complicated political system. Its not easy to just label any specific action as "evil". There are going to be good and bad reasons for everything.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 12, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> I am saying, economically it doesnt make sense to me. I just dont see the motive. Iraq, possibly, there would be alterior motives. For central africa? What reason would there be? Until I see a reason, I cant believe in this.
> 
> You are saying since country "A" has a history of launching war on resources; that they cause violent conflicts. While in that context that is true, its not necessarily true that they cause all violent conflicts they're involved with.
> 
> ...



How is "selling weapons to everybody" not profitable? How is keeping everything unstable and pay the warlords and get what you want cheaper profitable?
I understand what you try to say and I agree on your point of view. But I just happen to see and experience too much, to just agree on logic. The evidence is everywhere.


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## TreWatson (Sep 13, 2010)

judging by the video, this has nothing to do with the electronics at all.

seriously, they're buying weapons with the money we PAY them for their stuff.

THEY are the ones doing it, not the electronics companies.

now if said companies just went and killed people for the materials, i'd be upset, but this is entirely on them.

i mean, would you all of a sudden start blaming gibson if they paid me to build guitars and i used the money to blow up a children's hospital?

no, you would not. you would blame me for being a soulless morally corrupt bastard.

so I'm protesting the conflict in the congo and not the electronics companies. these yuppies can kiss my ass.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 13, 2010)

TreKita said:


> judging by the video, this has nothing to do with the electronics at all.
> 
> seriously, they're buying weapons with the money we PAY them for their stuff.
> 
> ...


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## Mr Violence (Sep 13, 2010)

TreKita said:


> judging by the video, this has nothing to do with the electronics at all.
> 
> seriously, they're buying weapons with the money we PAY them for their stuff.
> 
> ...





And even while I agree wholeheartedly with Tre's standpoint, there's still legislation to regulate where companies buy from.

People are taking steps, and if you care about the conflicts, then by all means take action.

Raising awareness has always irked me. It's like saying "Hey, this is a problem, but I'm just going to make a video about it. You viewers can actually do the work!" As that video tried to make the point that ALL consumer electronics have blood on their hands, then by the same judgmental standard, all the technology used to cut that video together is equally as guilty. As Ray pointed out, it's hypocritical. Yeah, it was a nit-picky way to do it, but it's goddamned true and shouldn't be tossed aside. This is a response to the typical yuppie, American, upper-class, self-important, ego-massaging, fuckheads that "raise awareness". War is an atrocity and what's going on in the Congo is horrible, but people that make videos like this reek of egotistical, smell-your-own-farts douchebaggery. They're not there, and I guarantee they don't see the whole picture, nor would they have the balls to go find out.


Tre hit it right on the nose. They're blaming the wrong people and not focusing on the problem. Another point that was brought up is that boycotting people who use these materials would probably create more tension in the area.


As for the war issue, the US would get chastised for sticking their hand in it, anyways. It seriously seems like we can do no right. Max said our hands aren't clean, but we aren't the Great Evil. I think we'll always be viewed as such though.


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## TreWatson (Sep 13, 2010)

Mr Violence said:


> And even while I agree wholeheartedly with Tre's standpoint, there's still legislation to regulate where companies buy from.
> 
> People are taking steps, and if you care about the conflicts, then by all means take action.
> 
> ...


 

so in terms of an alignment chart (go look them up) we're chaotic neutral.

not good, not evil, but we tend to stir the pot a little.

i feel as though a good solution to this problem would be to persuade some kind of regulation in the area of the congo.

instead of boycotting electronics, we should boycott weapons sales in the congo. to me it seems like a much smarter idea.

but even that could create conflict and unnecessary tension so... there's that.


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## Randy (Sep 13, 2010)

All you non-US residents will have to excuse the "RED WHITE AND BLLLLUUUUUUEEEEE" contingency. Some of us lack perspective.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 14, 2010)

Randy said:


> All you non-US residents will have to excuse the "RED WHITE AND BLLLLUUUUUUEEEEE" contingency. Some of us lack perspective.



I live in France now, same colours, similar mentality LOL


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 14, 2010)

TreKita said:


> judging by the video, this has nothing to do with the electronics at all.
> 
> seriously, they're buying weapons with the money we PAY them for their stuff.
> 
> THEY are the ones doing it, not the electronics companies.



This would be right if the companies who sell the raw material where Legit or National.But this isn't the case in Congo (Formerly called Zaire)
The Electronics companies buy the raw material knowing that they where stolen, smuggled, or even stolen from a smuggler who stole it in the first place.
Not just that, they know that those smugglers Rape women to keep the pressure, kill the ones who don't work like a slave.

The Electronic companies are aware of this, we too. We just tend to let our Balls rest on Ice, keep cool and let others die and suffer for our pleasure.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 14, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> This would be right if the companies who sell the raw material where Legit or National.But this isn't the case in Congo (Formerly called Zaire)
> The Electronics companies buy the raw material knowing that they where stolen, smuggled, or even stolen from a smuggler who stole it in the first place.
> Not just that, they know that those smugglers Rape women to keep the pressure, kill the ones who don't work like a slave.
> 
> The Electronic companies are aware of this, we too. We just tend to let our Balls rest on Ice, keep cool and let others die and suffer for our pleasure.



Actually it seems that the ore is dug out of the ground and is then passed through several hands. From there it goes onto be refined, which leads it to be passed through a couple more hands, then the large OEM electronics makers (all located in China) then buy the raw materials. 

There can't be a way for say Apple, Microsoft, Dell, etc. to know exactly where their supplier's, refiner's, supplier's get their resources from. There are legitimate Tantalum, Tin, and Gold supplies around the globe. 

It seems like the OEMs in China are who is to blame, not the companies who contract them out here in the US and abroad. What are the electronics developers here supposed to do? They're already being mandated by the US Government to disclose their sources, and that's just a few steps away from disallowing the use of conflict minerals. Granted, a few BIG steps, but here in the US appearances are everything. No one is stopping the builders in China from doing anything. The US isn't in a position to cut ties with Chinese manufacturing. Last time I checked, these computer parts are finding there way all around the world, so unless everyone (as in everyone on Earth) ditches their Chinese made electronics, I don't think conflict materials could be legitimately stopped. At least not with a simply boycott by a small percentage of the market. 

Though, the refiners in Asia are even more guilty. They're one step closer to the dubious ore suppliers. What are we to do about them? They don't just process the "bad ore". 

I've been looking for some proof that certain OEMs are getting the bulk, or even a small amount, of materials directly from the Congo, but I just can't find anything. Have you found something? I'm really asking, as I've kinda hit a wall searching.


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## beneharris (Sep 14, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I agree with South Park, "activists are totally gay".




someone in this thread needed to acknowledge this


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## TreWatson (Sep 14, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> This would be right if the companies who sell the raw material where Legit or National.But this isn't the case in Congo (Formerly called Zaire)
> The Electronics companies buy the raw material knowing that they where stolen, smuggled, or even stolen from a smuggler who stole it in the first place.
> Not just that, they know that those smugglers Rape women to keep the pressure, kill the ones who don't work like a slave.
> 
> The Electronic companies are aware of this, we too. We just tend to let our Balls rest on Ice, keep cool and let others die and suffer for our pleasure.


still.

electronics companies buy their materials from shady dealers.

iall the same it is not their fault.

the killing raping and conflict in the congo did not happen because of the sale of minerals to electronics companies. it's almost the complete opposite. the conflict would occur whether the companies bought the minerals or not.

time for another one of my world famous analogies.

say someone was a drunk known for drunk driving rampages and managed to injure someone every night. (not getting into the criminal charges he would incur, that's irrelevant to my point) but he has a job and literally spends al lbut 10 dollars of each check on booze to gwet smashed and go on a tyraid every time he gets paid.

what they are suggesting is like firing this man from his job because HE uses the money to buy booze. when in actuality what should be occurring is that the town should be posting his face everywhere saying do not give this man booze.

because in the congo, if we stop buying materials it will not affect the conflict in a very large supply. they will barter to buy arms instead of cash, or worse yet, begin to improvise arms much like modern terrorists.

i say the UN should organize some sort of freeze on sales of arms to the congo until the conflict resolves.

but then we'd probably lose materials because the congo would get pissed.

so i'm not sure how well it will pan out.

also, my facts are capable of being wrong, but i have not seen a flaw in my logic yet.


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## orb451 (Sep 14, 2010)

I've read this debate since the thread started. Trekita, your logic is flawed because you actually assume that people should take responsibility for their actions. Thus, you are placing blame on the whacko warlords in the Congo that kill their own countrymen.

When in point of fact, clearly you should be blaming the big evil corporations of China for purchasing the Congo's precious resources.

See the problem?

Yeah me neither.

I love how people think these problems are simultaneously best left to the country's at hand, and at the same time require UN (or US) intervention. Should Chinese corporations suddenly develop an overwhelming conscience, then I'm sure they'd stop buying materials where violence was occuring as Nintendo and a few others claim to be doing. But tell me, who here actually believes they're doing all they can to ensure the materials are procured in the best manner possible? Anyone? Anyone honestly buy into that bullshit?

And more over, what moral obligation do these companies have for buying materials when as Trekita aptly pointed out, the sale of materials is used in part to fund their little campaign of terror? 

Hearing anything from big corps regarding the issue is lip service. It appeases the few fanboys and yuppies that might kick up a stink. That's it. I'm sure they really don't care one way or the other where the materials come from, so long as they get them cheaply and reliably. As someone pointed out to me, when I started a thread regarding poor labor conditions in Southeast Asia, what moral obligation do the companies have and what moral obligation do we as consumers have, when nigh on everything every single one of us uses on a regular basis comes from some kind of conflict, conflicted company, country or government somewhere in the world. 

I mean it's unending this guilt people have today. 

As others say, cut off the sale of arms to Congo warlords and see how much that curbs the problems there and elsewhere in Africa for that matter. And while you're at it, don't send in the UN, don't send in the US, don't impose any other sanctions. And guess what? Like anyone motivated, they'll find a *way* to destroy each other and continue the violence. Do you think they won't find someone else to sell them weapons? 

Raising awareness for issues like this is just another guilt trip dujour . And this one at least, is far removed enough down the chain that essentially we're expected to solve another country's problems by getting involved, without getting involved. Yeah, that ought to work.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 15, 2010)

Okay!
Let's say, you have a lovely Neighbour, who brings you a nice guitar every day, and sells it for 5 dollars.
You know that the guy is going to steal it from some shop, you already know which shop.
You also know this guy is a part of the Mafia, and already killed people.
You also know the guy hits his wife everyday and beats the shit out of his kid.

Do you still want to buy guitars for 5 dollars?
If your answer is YES, we are having a totally different base of Moral.
If your answer is NO, your logic on your last post is flawed!
Oh and don't forget, you could be one of those Women, or kids who have to dig in mines, or have to kill.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 15, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Okay!
> Let's say, you have a lovely Neighbour, who brings you a nice guitar every day, and sells it for 5 dollars.
> You know that the guy is going to steal it from some shop, you already know which shop.
> You also know this guy is a part of the Mafia, and already killed people.
> ...



That's a flawed analogy in the sense that guys from Microsoft and Apple (and other) aren't going directly to the Congo to get materials, it's a long line of people pocketing money, and lines do get blurred. 

It would break down more like this:

There is a lumber jack, he's evil. Plain and simple. He beats his wife and children. Is the town drunk. He goes out of his way to cause harm to those around him. Just an overall piece of shit of a person. He cuts down trees. 

Well, the trees in his area are plentiful, but because he's such a piece of crap, he needs to have someone else haul his bastard trees to the lumber yard. So he gets a trucker to do the work. The trucker's morals aren't exactly grand, but he needs to feed his family and keep his truck running, so he hauls the trees away and says they're his. 

The trucker gets the trees to the mill. The mill suspects that the trees belong to the asshole lumber jack, but in the interest of feeding themselves and there families, and because the trucker brings loads of wood from all over, they fall in line and process the lumber. 

The lumber know makes it's way to the wood supplier. This supplier deals in stuff from all over, and realizes that possibly some of his stock is tainted. He can't sort out exactly what is or isn't, so he just goes on selling it. 

Now, the guy who works for a large mass CNC company which makes custom guitar bodies goes to his favorite lumber supplier who gives him good deals on great stock. He purchases a lot of lumber, there is a possibility that some came from the dick head lumber jack, but art this point, there's no telling. It's all or nothing. 

Here's where the guitar builder neighbor comes in. He has a deal with the CNC guy to give him a certain amount of high quality bodies, necks, etc. spec'd to his likings. Because he puts in a large and exclusive order, he gets a really good deal. 

Finally, your guitar builder neighbor does his work, and the parts are now an amazing guitar thanks to his finishing touch and design.


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 15, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's a flawed analogy in the sense that guys from Microsoft and Apple (and other) aren't going directly to the Congo to get materials, it's a long line of people pocketing money, and lines do get blurred.
> 
> It would break down more like this:
> 
> ...



Well, this analogy makes everything lighter than it is, since you pu just a "town drunk" kind of guy in the picture. We are talking about mass killings, rapes, slavery and oppression!
And the chinese guys buy it direct from the smugglers, who work as a team with the mafia anyways.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 15, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Well, this analogy makes everything lighter than it is, since you pu just a "town drunk" kind of guy in the picture. We are talking about mass killings, rapes, slavery and oppression!
> And the chinese guys buy it direct from the smugglers, who work as a team with the mafia anyways.



Obviously it was an understatement used in an analogy. 

I've yet to find that direct link. Can you please post it. I've been asking for it for days, yet it seems like I'm talking to myself in this thread with a few people arguing over morals and semantics. 

Give. Me. Facts. Please.


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## Mr Violence (Sep 15, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Well, this analogy makes everything lighter than it is, since you pu just a "town drunk" kind of guy in the picture. We are talking about mass killings, rapes, slavery and oppression!
> And the chinese guys buy it direct from the smugglers, who work as a team with the mafia anyways.



You used the analogy angle first. Max just used a different analogy to prove that yours is a very pointed analogy with no question or variables about the wife-beating, mafia luthier. All is 100% certain.

What I took from Max was that there are way too many variables to be measured and it cannot be anyone else's responsibility other than the evil lumberjack to keep himself in check.

Like he said, this is all semantics.

Orb, I agree with everything you said, as well. Raising awareness is a guilt trip. Very good way to put it. Yuppies have turned to high school tactics of broken hearted 13 year olds trying to get their significant other back to make it feel like they're saving the world and can relate to people in the Congo.


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## TreWatson (Sep 15, 2010)

I'll agree with you orb that my opinion is IDEALISTIC. but my LOGIC is not flawed.

unrealistic, yes, very, obviously so.

but not flawed.

this is some bomb squad shit right here.

don't cut the wrong wire.

anyway, i'm dropping out of this convo. i don't really have much else to say. i gave my  and now i'm gonna just leave it.


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## orb451 (Sep 15, 2010)

Trek, I was actually being sarcastic. I *know* your logic isn't flawed and I agree with it.

Bow out of this if you want to, but just know that I was in full agreement with you and was using sarcasm to emphasize my concurrence. So don't think I was pissing on your point with that because I definitely wasn't


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## TreWatson (Sep 15, 2010)

orb451 said:


> Trek, I was actually being sarcastic. I *know* your logic isn't flawed and I agree with it.
> 
> Bow out of this if you want to, but just know that I was in full agreement with you and was using sarcasm to emphasize my concurrence. So don't think I was pissing on your point with that because I definitely wasn't



damn internet sarcasm machines xD I was kinda confused.

but yeah right or not, it's really idealistic and probably not gonna happen.

thanks dude! and I'm glad you agree, I thought long and hard over this point of view.


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## orb451 (Sep 15, 2010)

And yeah Mr. Violence, I agree, it's all histrionics and hand-waving whenever something like this comes up. I'll admit, I do feel bad as a person and a consumer that companies exploit labor in third world countries.

This instance however, is more to me about *wanting* the money given to group "x" spent on something "beneficial" when in point of fact, it is their right to do whatever they want with the money they get from the sale of resources they have access to.


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## orb451 (Sep 15, 2010)

TreKita said:


> damn internet sarcasm machines xD I was kinda confused.
> 
> but yeah right or not, it's really idealistic and probably not gonna happen.
> 
> thanks dude! and I'm glad you agree, I thought long and hard over this point of view.



Well just know you're not alone in your point of view, as I have reached a similar conclusion on my own as well.


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## ugg im kyle (Sep 15, 2010)

Can I please use the grenade that is supposedly inside my computer to destroy these videos? I'm not against the U.S. helping other countries, especially if we are importing from said place. I DO NOT agree with calling Verizon and asking them to send me a phone made out of wheat grass. People demand ridiculous shit from the corporate kingpins of this county. The problem is that we're importing in the first place. This country has lost it's backbone and what made us strong in the first place. We need to be producing and manufacturing here more, rather than writing checks. Fuck. I hate getting started on government. I'm out of here.


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## Mr Violence (Sep 15, 2010)

ugg im kyle said:


> I DO NOT agree with calling Verizon and asking them to send me a phone made out of wheat grass.





That killed me. I agree with you.


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## rectifryer (Sep 15, 2010)

LOL at guy handing out neg rep for a politcal thread.


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## orb451 (Sep 15, 2010)

rectifryer said:


> LOL at guy handing out neg rep for a politcal thread.



I like how he says I'm "retarded" but doesn't know the difference between your and you're


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