# Is it best to pass on used BRJ guitars?



## Panacea224 (Jul 31, 2020)

I've seen some of the stories on here regarding bad quality control on BRJ guitars, especially the later ones. This one on reverb caught my eye. I can't tell when it was made to make a guess as to whether it's a black Friday run or not. Any thoughts are appreciated. 

Bernie Rico Jr Hesperian 727 https://reverb.com/item/33331834-be...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=33331834


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## SpaceDock (Jul 31, 2020)

I was in the Black Friday run and that is certainly from that era. Iirc the 727 with specs like that was only 1700 or so at that time. I can’t say much about the quality because I never got mine.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 31, 2020)

Unless you can handle it in person, stay away. It's not worth the heartburn if it was one of the "bad" ones. Folks have spent thousands getting them playable. 

Not to mention the bad juju from possibly being someone's guitar that was paid for and never delivered.


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## Panacea224 (Jul 31, 2020)

Thank you both. I will stay away. It seemed priced too high to me and wasn't sure it was worth the risk of getting a bad one.


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## Carl Kolchak (Jul 31, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Unless you can handle it in person, stay away. It's not worth the heartburn if it was one of the "bad" ones. Folks have spent thousands getting them playable.
> 
> Not to mention the bad juju from possibly being someone's guitar that was paid for and never delivered.


Did know one ever take legal action against him?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 31, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> Did know one ever take legal action against him?



I know at least one person was in active litigation, but I don't believe it went anywhere in the end. Just a judgment that's unenforceable at best. 

Folks just waited too long, weren't proactive enough, and couldn't organize to get anywhere in the end. The few who had the drive to get a resolution didn't have the resources, or were from too far away, and those with the resources just wanted to wash thier hands of it. 

If you want a wild read, take on the whole BRJ thread, it's a roller-coaster. Tons of information though, and required reading for anyone who wants to get into bespoke guitars.


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## Randy (Jul 31, 2020)

I don't know if it was unfinished or flawed but Brian from Bowes Guitars on here (very respected and capable luthier) had one he was working on for a client and it seemed like it took forever to make it usable. He might be better to explain that. This is his IG https://instagram.com/bowesguitars

I've played a couple and they were great, I was actually tempted by the Black Friday sale. It's not like be never made a good guitar, it's that he didn't make his guitars at all  So as a result, there was minimal QC going on in that shop, especially some of the guitars that were rushed or half build to quell the Black Friday riots.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Jul 31, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know at least one person was in active litigation, but I don't believe it went anywhere in the end. Just a judgment that's unenforceable at best.
> 
> Folks just waited too long, weren't proactive enough, and couldn't organize to get anywhere in the end. The few who had the drive to get a resolution didn't have the resources, or were from too far away, and those with the resources just wanted to wash thier hands of it.
> 
> If you want a wild read, take on the whole BRJ thread, it's a roller-coaster. Tons of information though, and required reading for anyone who wants to get into bespoke guitars.



Looking to read that thread, but can't find it? search function didn't come up with anything. But damn do I love a good drama to read.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 31, 2020)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Looking to read that thread, but can't find it? search function didn't come up with anything. But damn do I love a good drama to read.



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-for-updates-for-by-customers-ad-free.138377/


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## SpaceDock (Jul 31, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> Did know one ever take legal action against him?



I did. There is a Colorado warranty for his arrest, but the police told me that it is unlikely that even if he got arrested in California that the Colorado charges would be pressed and that it is even more unlikely that a Colorado officer would ever go out there to get him. It’s really lame because they more or less told me they don’t have resources to ever do anything because it is just money.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 31, 2020)

Such a shame the Hesperian was such a good shape. He could have at least had the dignity to scam people with ugly guitars


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## jaxadam (Jul 31, 2020)

Panacea224 said:


> I've seen some of the stories on here regarding bad quality control on BRJ guitars, especially the later ones. This one on reverb caught my eye. I can't tell when it was made to make a guess as to whether it's a black Friday run or not. Any thoughts are appreciated.
> 
> Bernie Rico Jr Hesperian 727 https://reverb.com/item/33331834-be...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=33331834



Knowing that that person keeps the dog’s water bowl right where you’d step out of the house, I would not trust that guitar.


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## Carl Kolchak (Jul 31, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know at least one person was in active litigation, but I don't believe it went anywhere in the end. Just a judgment that's unenforceable at best.
> 
> Folks just waited too long, weren't proactive enough, and couldn't organize to get anywhere in the end. The few who had the drive to get a resolution didn't have the resources, or were from too far away, and those with the resources just wanted to wash thier hands of it.
> 
> If you want a wild read, take on the whole BRJ thread, it's a roller-coaster. Tons of information though, and required reading for anyone who wants to get into bespoke guitars.


Didn't he show up at a recent NAMM only to have to be then escorted out by the cops?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 31, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> Didn't he show up at a recent NAMM only to have to be then escorted out by the cops?



I know he went to at least one NAMM, back in 16' or 17', but I didn't hear about cops or anything. Everyone was going on about being a tough guy and confronting/breaking his legs, etc. but I never heard of anything happening. 

I've heard from folks I know either still in the industry or adjacent that he's been trying to setup something up for awhile, but he scammed enough dealers towards the end, and the Black Friday shenanigans are more widely known now that he can't really trade on his name anymore, which is really all he's got.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Jul 31, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-for-updates-for-by-customers-ad-free.138377/


Man, what a read. The best part probably being the "lurker" who popped in in the first few pages to say Bernie was a scammer only to be rebuked by all the purchasers defending Bernie with " No WAI MAN, he's gud and his guitarz r gonna be UHmazing!"

More than two years later, I hope he was just yelling "I told you so!" at the screen.


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## Hollowway (Aug 1, 2020)

Randy said:


> I don't know if it was unfinished or flawed but Brian from Bowes Guitars on here (very respected and capable luthier) had one he was working on for a client and it seemed like it took forever to make it usable. He might be better to explain that. This is his IG https://instagram.com/bowesguitars
> 
> I've played a couple and they were great, I was actually tempted by the Black Friday sale. It's not like be never made a good guitar, it's that he didn't make his guitars at all  So as a result, there was minimal QC going on in that shop, especially some of the guitars that were rushed or half build to quell the Black Friday riots.


Yeah, that was mine. It’s both unfinished AND flawed. I got a guitar from him (BRJ) prior to that (traded with Pat Sheridan for my USA Jackson plus cash) that played really nicely. So when the Black Friday run came up I jumped at it. Brian has had to do quite a bit to get it playable. I would definitely stay away unless you can play it in person, and you know what you’re looking for when evaluating it. Some of those stayed in the warehouse with no temperature control for months, and could be warped to all hell.


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## Vyn (Aug 1, 2020)

For a moment I thought this thread was referring to a Jekyll 727 that recently appeared in one of the Aussie FB groups. Poor thing got Flody swapped


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## jephjacques (Aug 1, 2020)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Such a shame the Hesperian was such a good shape. He could have at least had the dignity to scam people with ugly guitars



the good news is if you like the body shape you can just get one of the new Merrow sigs, they're essentially the same


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## Merrekof (Aug 1, 2020)

Vyn said:


> For a moment I thought this thread was referring to a Jekyll 727 that recently appeared in one of the Aussie FB groups. Poor thing got Flody swapped
> View attachment 83321


I hate it. Seriously, that neck pickup all slanted looks horrible and it ruins the whole guitar for me..


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## bzhang9 (Aug 1, 2020)

that amount of cash gets you a near perfect guitar from a dozen great companies, why buy a possible lemon from a garbage company, value can only go down

listed 3 months ago... lol


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## Vyn (Aug 1, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> I hate it. Seriously, that neck pickup all slanted looks horrible and it ruins the whole guitar for me..



I love the design, it’s probably one of my favourite SS designs of all time. Unfortunately the history of the brand is fucked


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## Emperoff (Aug 2, 2020)

I managed to get away from that shitstorm. As plenty of people, at the beggining I refused to see the truth of what it seemed a reputable company. But then the fuckups started to pile up: Barely any communication, plenty of shady stuff surfacing, and my guitar apparently had to be rebuilt twice (!).

At that point there were red flags everywhere and people started to sell their "spots", so I did the same thinking nobody would want it (considering all the shit that was raining). 

Boy, I was wrong. It sold in four hours. Some people just don't want to see the signs...


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## secretpizza (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know at least one person was in active litigation, but I don't believe it went anywhere in the end. Just a judgment that's unenforceable at best.
> 
> Folks just waited too long, weren't proactive enough, and couldn't organize to get anywhere in the end. The few who had the drive to get a resolution didn't have the resources, or were from too far away, and those with the resources just wanted to wash thier hands of it.
> 
> If you want a wild read, take on the whole BRJ thread, it's a roller-coaster. Tons of information though, and required reading for anyone who wants to get into bespoke guitars.



I had always wondered what the issue was with BRJ guitars, and now that I’ve fallen into the rabbit hole of reading hundreds of posts on this, I get it. This should be required reading for anyone considering a custom guitar or a used BRJ.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

secretpizza said:


> I had always wondered what the issue was with BRJ guitars, and now that I’ve fallen into the rabbit hole of reading hundreds of posts on this, I get it. This should be required reading for anyone considering a custom guitar or a used BRJ.



It also serves as a masterclass on why not to trust endorsed artists.

DIABOLIC5150 is Keith Merrow. How anyone can read that thread and support him is beyond me. There are a few others who really showed thier ass, but I'll leave it at that.


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## canuck brian (Aug 2, 2020)

The side dot indicators were dabbed on with white enamel paint! >.0 That in itself should shoo you away!

I think the worst task I had to do was removing the all the glue from the fretboard without destroying it. I'd put money on the truss rod "slot" being filed out with a rasp - just zero care taken. The fretboard has a shim under it to give it the angle the Kahler needs - I have never seen that in my entire life!

I'm down to shimming the nut again because they didn't do any measurements beforehand, but I've put a lot of time into this guitar to get it into playable shape. There is a thread on my FB page with a lot of photos of the repair and up close shots. It would be an absolutely ripping guitar if the guy building had spent an hour or two more on each process instead of rushing it.

Edit - i looked at the guitar - Unless Bernie had that really awkward looking Cooley cut, i'd say the guitar is customer finished. Those side dots are painted on and you see can see the color difference between the shim between the fretboard and mahogany neck.

Please do not buy this guitar.
The CDN price of this guitar is $5000. That puts it in league with my fave builders Oni, Daemoness and Carillion. This guitar so far out of its league with those guys that its playing a different game. Also thats $400 shy of two complete customs from me.


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## jephjacques (Aug 2, 2020)

I *still* boggle at that fretboard shim. Why on earth.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> I *still* boggle at that fretboard shim. Why on earth.



So the woodshop can pump out as many body/neck blocks as possible without worrying about bridge install/neck angle.

The body/neck blocks (and pretty much all fretboards) were done in Mexico by Bernie's team down there. 

The Mexican team were skilled, good craftsman, but being paid peanuts, and later not at all, to pump out generic blanks as fast as possible with little regard for the final product.


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## Emperoff (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It also serves as a masterclass on why not to trust endorsed artists.
> 
> DIABOLIC5150 is Keith Merrow. How anyone can read that thread and support him is beyond me. There are a few others who really showed thier ass, but I'll leave it at that.



Keith Merrow, Misha Mansoor, Nolly... Just to name a few. They were quick to wash their hands and never be seen with BRJs again when things went south.


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## jephjacques (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> So the woodshop can pump out as many body/neck blocks as possible without worrying about bridge install/neck angle.
> 
> The body/neck blocks (and pretty much all fretboards) were done in Mexico by Bernie's team down there.
> 
> The Mexican team were skilled, good craftsman, but being paid peanuts, and later not at all, to pump out generic blanks as fast as possible with little regard for the final product.



Is it common for there to be that kind of shallow angle on neck-through instruments? Obviously when done well it wouldn't be very noticeable, so I wonder if I just haven't seen it on my guitars or if it's unusual.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> Is it common for there to be that kind of shallow angle on neck-through instruments? Obviously when done well it wouldn't be very noticeable, so I wonder if I just haven't seen it on my guitars or if it's unusual.



Some do, some don't. It's not like there's a "right" amount of neck angle for all guitars of a given type. It's just usually handled at the beginning as a design element vs. being done to a blank canvas type of neck/body blank at a later date.


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## Edika (Aug 2, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> Keith Merrow, Misha Mansoor, Nolly... Just to name a few. They were quick to wash their hands and never be seen with BRJs again when things went south.



Problem is that up until quite well into that mess they were supporting Bernie (and S7G and Vik and...). They had insider information though and did not say anything until it was all too late and the cat was out of the bag.


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## Emperoff (Aug 2, 2020)

Edika said:


> Problem is that up until quite well into that mess they were supporting Bernie (and S7G and Vik and...). They had insider information though and did not say anything until it was all too late and the cat was out of the bag.



I know. I'm on that thread, sadly. I respect those dudes as musicians, but that's it.

I've watched too many builders rise and fall on these forums. I bit the bait twice, and that's enough for me. I learnt a lot from the experiences, though. And I know I probably will never order a CS guitar ever again. I prefer to buy them used.


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## Edika (Aug 2, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> I know. I'm on that thread, sadly. I respect those dudes as musicians, but that's it.
> 
> I've watched too many builders rise and fall on these forums. I bit the bait twice, and that's enough for me. I learnt a lot from the experiences, though. And I know I probably will never order a CS guitar ever again. I prefer to buy them used.



I almost got in the Bernie Rico and the ViK runs and I thank my lucky stars I didn't. And yes as musicians I have nothing bad to say about them. But whenever Misha appears around here to promote whatever new product he believes in that day, plays the nice guy routine I cringe hard.


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## Vyn (Aug 2, 2020)

Edika said:


> Problem is that up until quite well into that mess they were supporting Bernie (and S7G and Vik and...). They had insider information though and did not say anything until it was all too late and the cat was out of the bag.



The only defence I’ll give them is that because they were endorsed and under contract, legally they wouldn’t have been allowed to say much. In addition to that, talking smack about a prior endorsement is not going to land an artist another endorsement.

That all being said, dam that thread is hard to read again


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

Vyn said:


> The only defence I’ll give them is that because they were endorsed and under contract, legally they wouldn’t have been allowed to say much. In addition to that, talking smack about a prior endorsement is not going to land an artist another endorsement.
> 
> That all being said, dam that thread is hard to read again



False, but whatever.


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## Vyn (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> False, but whatever.



They weren’t under contract? Damn 

That just makes the whole thing even more shit.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

Vyn said:


> They weren’t under contract? Damn
> 
> That just makes the whole thing even more shit.



Even if that were they case, contracts can't stop you from reporting illegal activity, nor can they push you into doing something illegal.


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## nickgray (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It also serves as a masterclass on why not to trust endorsed artists.



Same thing goes for pretty much any gear and extends to YouTube influencers. It's all the same can of worms - people are trying to sell you some shit in one way or another.


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## Randy (Aug 2, 2020)

I was under the impression shims between the neck and the body are common in acoustics and set necks like LPs. According to my old guitar building books anyway, the neck tenon is cut with zero angle and the shim is how you dial it on to match the bridge angle. Maybe that's an old thing idk.


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## Randy (Aug 2, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I love the design, it’s probably one of my favourite SS designs of all time. Unfortunately the history of the brand is fucked



The good news is that you can steal the shape and use it however you wish. Is that crook going to stick his head out of the ground for a lawsuit to risk being thrown in jail instead?


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

Randy said:


> I was under the impression shims between the neck and the body are common in acoustics and set necks like LPs. According to my old guitar building books anyway, the neck tenon is cut with zero angle and the shim is how you dial it on to match the bridge angle. Maybe that's an old thing idk.



It is pretty old school, and you see it on set necks from some builders who still do it mostly by hand. It works, which is why Rico went for that setup. 

Those guitars were still done almost exclusively by hand, which is pretty nuts.


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## Vyn (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Even if that were they case, contracts can't stop you from reporting illegal activity, nor can they push you into doing something illegal.



Going to download a bit here (and this is derailing things a bit, however fuck it because this is a bit much for my brain at the moment) - When I joined this board in 2010 after lurking for a while, Keith was already one of my heroes on guitar. I've bought every release, had a couple of KM-7s (looking at getting a KM-7 MK-III at the moment even). I remember the BRJ run happened around when I joined and followed the thread through to about late 2012 originally from memory and after that forgot about it as I'd lost interest in BRJ guitars. At the time I saw yourself and the other mods attacking Keith and the other people trying to help get their guitars and honestly sided with Keith at the time thinking that this board was biased against BRJ, Keith was just trying to help out and you guys were just arseholes. 

I didn't re-read the thread until after BRJ himself turned up at NAMM 16 I think it was, and then found out about the whole story. Having re-read the whole thread again the other night, I realised that I still owed you guys an apology. Just want to say sorry to yourself, @Randy , @technomancer and @DDDorian because having got to know you guys better, you're all chill and great to talk to. And in that thread you were just trying to help with people getting their guitars and that no more people got sucked into it.

Still struggling with Keith actions, not sure how I'm going to internalise those. Some days I'll be fine with it, some days it fucking hurts.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 2, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Going to download a bit here (and this is derailing things a bit, however fuck it because this is a bit much for my brain at the moment) - When I joined this board in 2010 after lurking for a while, Keith was already one of my heroes on guitar. I've bought every release, had a couple of KM-7s (looking at getting a KM-7 MK-III at the moment even). I remember the BRJ run happened around when I joined and followed the thread through to about late 2012 originally from memory and after that forgot about it as I'd lost interest in BRJ guitars. At the time I saw yourself and the other mods attacking Keith and the other people trying to help get their guitars and honestly sided with Keith at the time thinking that this board was biased against BRJ, Keith was just trying to help out and you guys were just arseholes.
> 
> I didn't re-read the thread until after BRJ himself turned up at NAMM 16 I think it was, and then found out about the whole story. Having re-read the whole thread again the other night, I realised that I still owed you guys an apology. Just want to say sorry to yourself, @Randy , @technomancer and @DDDorian because having got to know you guys better, you're all chill and great to talk to. And in that thread you were just trying to help with people getting their guitars and that no more people got sucked into it.
> 
> Still struggling with Keith actions, not sure how I'm going to internalise those. Some days I'll be fine with it, some days it fucking hurts.



I am an asshole and you owe me no apology.


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## technomancer (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I am an asshole and you owe me no apology.



Phew, I thought I was the only asshole here


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## Randy (Aug 2, 2020)

*shakes the tip jar*


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## jgaul79 (Aug 2, 2020)




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## jephjacques (Aug 2, 2020)

what the BRJ thread has taught me is I'm missing out on $$$ by not promoting a signature Wacom stylus that doesn't actually work


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## Emperoff (Aug 2, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Going to download a bit here (and this is derailing things a bit, however fuck it because this is a bit much for my brain at the moment) - When I joined this board in 2010 after lurking for a while, Keith was already one of my heroes on guitar. I've bought every release, had a couple of KM-7s (looking at getting a KM-7 MK-III at the moment even). I remember the BRJ run happened around when I joined and followed the thread through to about late 2012 originally from memory and after that forgot about it as I'd lost interest in BRJ guitars. At the time I saw yourself and the other mods attacking Keith and the other people trying to help get their guitars and honestly sided with Keith at the time thinking that this board was biased against BRJ, Keith was just trying to help out and you guys were just arseholes.
> 
> I didn't re-read the thread until after BRJ himself turned up at NAMM 16 I think it was, and then found out about the whole story. Having re-read the whole thread again the other night, I realised that I still owed you guys an apology. Just want to say sorry to yourself, @Randy , @technomancer and @DDDorian because having got to know you guys better, you're all chill and great to talk to. And in that thread you were just trying to help with people getting their guitars and that no more people got sucked into it.
> 
> Still struggling with Keith actions, not sure how I'm going to internalise those. Some days I'll be fine with it, some days it fucking hurts.



Same here. Reading myself through 50+ pages was tough. I was like "poor boy, can't you see those dudes are warning you?" 

Truth is, when you're so excited about something you don't want to hear people bursting your bubble (Usually reacting defensively).


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## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Randy said:


> The good news is that you can steal the shape and use it however you wish. Is that crook going to stick his head out of the ground for a lawsuit to risk being thrown in jail instead?



Hang on, it just clicked - you've already programmed the shape into your CNC haven't you


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 3, 2020)

How bad was BRJ's rep prior to all this?


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 3, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> How bad was BRJ's rep prior to all this?



Depends on who you ask. 

Anyone who knew his history with BCR, and the earlier days of his own brand would have seen the red flags. 

Those just jumping in, basing thier opinions on artists who get free guitars and business associates paid to stump for them, would have thought he was the next big thing. 

In the lead up to the Black Friday sale, Bernie screwed over some dealers, employees, and ghosted at least a few customers. Granted, you had to really dig for that information at the time.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 3, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Depends on who you ask.
> 
> Anyone who knew his history with BCR, and the earlier days of his own brand would have seen the red flags.
> 
> ...


So how many iterations of BCR have there been since BRJ became possessed by the demon Mammon?


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 3, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> So how many iterations of BCR have there been since BRJ became possessed by the demon Mammon?



Since Bernie was no longer affiliated with BCR, five. Since the BFR fiasco, four. In total, BCR has had over half a dozen owners over the years, with most of them being only in the last 30.

Everything sort of went to Hell when Sr.'s health began declining in the 90's.

It should be noted that BRJ the guitar brand and BCR were never affiliated. The last thing Jr. did with BCR were a limited run of guitars in the early 00's, but it was done as a contractor.


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 3, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It also serves as a masterclass on why not to trust endorsed artists.
> 
> DIABOLIC5150 is Keith Merrow. How anyone can read that thread and support him is beyond me. There are a few others who really showed thier ass, but I'll leave it at that.




Yikes. I had a long car trip yesterday and decided to give that thread a read from the start. Only made it like 50-60 pages in (I think up until February a year after orders were taken) and that shit was rough. I know hindsight is 20/20, but good GOD were people stupidly adamant about defending and ignoring red flags. I've read a lot of the more recent stuff more recently, but that early stuff, including Keith is news to me. Feelsbadman. I still generally like him, if not just for the fact that I respect him as a player, but he was on some people's cases who had legit concerns. I won't go on about it, as it's not polite to dwell or drag people through shit after so long, but reading the early days of that thread was a bit of an eye opener in several ways. I knew the situation turned OUT really bad, but I had no idea how it got there and what the bumpy road was like.

Such a bummer.


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## SpaceDock (Aug 3, 2020)

I held out for a real long time because Bernie was personable and I think part of that is how scams work. I think the same thing could be said about Abasi or Daemoness, sometimes a business gets out of hand and sometimes they can come back. It seemed like Abasi was going to burn down for a long time but those who stuck with it got rewarded. Some might be thinking the same things about Dylan right now. 

What I learned from all this, never buy something that doesn’t already exist.


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## technomancer (Aug 3, 2020)

Honestly anybody that has been around this place for any length of time should be smart enough to know that somebody who is trying to sell you a product is not your friend and is only looking out for their bottom line. It amazes me the number of guys that can't see this.


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 3, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> I held out for a real long time because Bernie was personable and I think part of that is how scams work. I think the same thing could be said about Abasi or Daemoness, sometimes a business gets out of hand and sometimes they can come back. It seemed like Abasi was going to burn down for a long time but those who stuck with it got rewarded. Some might be thinking the same things about Dylan right now.
> 
> What I learned from all this, never buy something that doesn’t already exist.



You were one of the ones I remember feeling really bad for even just knowing the end part of the story. I understand why people were trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Like I said, hind sight is always 20-20, and at the time there were bits of hope being tossed out there for people invested. But then there were people kind of on the inside that should've known something was amiss feeding false hope, or random people basically doing work for Jr, and then rebuild after rebuild and delay after sickness after somebody else's sickness. It was strange that people were buying slots despite having been on the outside looking in while it fell apart.

I still feel bad for everyone involved. I actually don't think I ever found out if Hollowway got his pre-black friday custom. Gonna venture a guess that that was a big fat nope. I suppose what @technomancer says is correct. At this point, not even just in the guitar business but just in general, nobody who's trying to sell you something is really your friend no matter how much they try to make it seem that way. Knowing how the story ended it was always so heart breaking seeing someone say something along the lines of "just spent a couple hours on the phone with BRJ! No need to worry folks!"


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 3, 2020)

barring BRJ the biggest flame-outs in the last few years are just people that are maybe good at building guitars and terrible at running businesses. 

Never take deposits except for stuff that you're working on right now. like literally you take the deposit and and spend exactly all of it on the parts necessary for the build. 

If a builder takes a deposit for something that is going to happen 2 years later that money is gone. 

and if they are still working by themselves after a few years and not expanding and taking on help they will burn out or go crazy. 

this isn't some magic land where you can just ignore all the rules of proper management and go yolo.


----------



## SpaceDock (Aug 3, 2020)

There was a dude on here that tried to bail out Bernie’s business and I think put in 100k or something nutty like that. I wonder where he is now....


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## eaeolian (Aug 3, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It also serves as a masterclass on why not to trust endorsed artists.
> 
> DIABOLIC5150 is Keith Merrow. How anyone can read that thread and support him is beyond me. There are a few others who really showed thier ass, but I'll leave it at that.



I'm still pissed at the fact that we, as moderators, raised all sorts of red flags and got blamed for "driving him off". We were, of course, right.

To top it off, this shitshow is why Rob basically shut down KXK.

Merrow can piss up a rope. I will never, ever touch anything he endorses simply because of this.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 3, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> I held out for a real long time because Bernie was personable and I think part of that is how scams work. I think the same thing could be said about Abasi or Daemoness, sometimes a business gets out of hand and sometimes they can come back. It seemed like Abasi was going to burn down for a long time but those who stuck with it got rewarded. Some might be thinking the same things about Dylan right now.
> 
> What I learned from all this, never buy something that doesn’t already exist.


Well what custom order exists prior to it being ordered?

I think it should go without saying at this point that if you want to go the custom route then simply do your homework, and find out for yourself whether or not this or that builder has a reputation that can be verified either way. Resources like SSO are a very valuable asset in this respect. 

That said, if you listen to the siren songs of paid shills then....


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 3, 2020)

Eh, paid shills and the hype machine. At the start of that whole thread, it seemed like his reputation was in pretty high regard. It's why even though someone like Kiesel, or even Jackson or whatever, are doing okay/relatively well who's to say that in one to two years they'll be just as well off? Custom guitars are largely a joke anyway... The fact that so many people were swapping out features and regretting this that or the other thing was proof that they likely shouldn't have been buying custom anyway.


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## SpaceDock (Aug 3, 2020)

^ exactly, BRJ was not problematic at the beginning of the run. So just like S7, kxk, Strandberg, daemoness, etc etc it only takes a few problems to tank the custom business model.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 3, 2020)

Word travels that much faster on the digital highway these days. If a specific company or builder is screwing people how long is it going to take for the word to get out now, a hour even?


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## budda (Aug 3, 2020)

The music industry is proof you can be a POS and people will defend you and your career can still thrive. Acting too.


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## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

eaeolian said:


> To top it off, this shitshow is why Rob basically shut down KXK.



Ah shit, didn't know that was one of the drivers


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 3, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> Word travels that much faster on the digital highway these days. If a specific company or builder is screwing people how long is it going to take for the word to get out now, a hour even?



We live in a post-fact world. The gory details of BRJ fucking folks over was fairly out in the open, especially a few months in, but that doesn't matter to some folks. 

If you surf the BCR forums and groups there are still ride or die BRJ fans. It's not that unique even.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 3, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> We live in a post-fact world. The gory details of BRJ fucking folks over was fairly out in the open, especially a few months in, but that doesn't matter to some folks.
> 
> If you surf the BCR forums and groups there are still ride or die BRJ fans. It's not that unique even.


The SSO variant of Stockholm Syndrome?


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## Emperoff (Aug 3, 2020)

Señor Voorhees said:


> Eh, paid shills and the hype machine. At the start of that whole thread, it seemed like his reputation was in pretty high regard. It's why even though someone like Kiesel, or even Jackson or whatever, are doing okay/relatively well who's to say that in one to two years they'll be just as well off? Custom guitars are largely a joke anyway... The fact that so many people were swapping out features and regretting this that or the other thing was proof that they likely shouldn't have been buying custom anyway.



Custom guitars are the new black.


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## Hollowway (Aug 3, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> Word travels that much faster on the digital highway these days. If a specific company or builder is screwing people how long is it going to take for the word to get out now, a hour even?



True, but it's hard to separate the rumors from legit problems. Kiesel has fucked people over, but largely still delivers. Mike Sherman fucked Angus over, but still helped out Chris and a few dudes before he eventually went belly up. Siggery imploded out of nowhere, but seemed legit at the time. The fact is that the red flags look obvious after the fact, but aren't always identifiable during the fall. One guy starts missing a bunch of deadlines, and is a BRJ/Blackwater/Siggery, another guy misses deadlines and is Kiesel/Daemoness/etc. One guy loses his shop to move, and ends up having to close the business completely (Ran), and other guy has his shop burn down with no insurance but comes back from it (Shad Peters). So the fact is that while the red flags are there, they're not always super obvious at the time. Granted, people were getting in with BRJ way too late. But it even affected me pre-black Friday, as I put an order in with Nick (Axe Palace) back when Bernie still had dealers. And I barely got that guitar due to the BFR shitshow. I think many of the red flags are like discovering someone's cheating on you. If he has to stay late at work a lot, and ends up having an affair, in hindsight that's a red flag. But if he DOESN'T have an affair, then he's... just working late.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 3, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> True, but it's hard to separate the rumors from legit problems.



At what point do you see a ton of "rumors" and just ignore it?



> Kiesel has fucked people over, but largely still delivers.



Have they? I know some folks weren't happy with how some builds or customer service went down, but I'd hardly say anyone was "fucked over".



> Mike Sherman fucked Angus over, but still helped out Chris and a few dudes before he eventually went belly up.



There isn't a point system. Being a mensch for one customer doesn't cancel out being a thief to another.

The Sherman situation was further complicated by some third party shenanigans, so it's a unique situation.

Qucifer got it pretty raw too.

Basically, if you weren't part of the cool kids (or had a bunch of money) over on MG Sherman didn't give a shit.



> Siggery imploded out of nowhere, but seemed legit at the time.



I wouldn't say "out of nowhere" the dude was ripping off IP and charging rock bottom prices, it wasn't going to last forever. Not to mention most thought they were decent "for the money" which is always a red flag.



> The fact is that the red flags look obvious after the fact, but aren't always identifiable during the fall.



The problem is, folks just don't want to see them. They want the cool guitar for a cooler price.



> One guy starts missing a bunch of deadlines, and is a BRJ/Blackwater/Siggery, another guy misses deadlines and is Kiesel/Daemoness/etc.



All situations are different and trying to frame them as somehow the same is a mistake.

I mean, BRJ lied about everything. Knowingly. That was his game.



> One guy loses his shop to move, and ends up having to close the business completely (Ran), and other guy has his shop burn down with no insurance but comes back from it (Shad Peters).



Those risks are ever present when working with a small business. It should go without saying.



> So the fact is that while the red flags are there, they're not always super obvious at the time.



Like I said before, not wanting to see them doesn't make them disappear.



> Granted, people were getting in with BRJ way too late. But it even affected me pre-black Friday, as I put an order in with Nick (Axe Palace) back when Bernie still had dealers. And I barely got that guitar due to the BFR shitshow. I think many of the red flags are like discovering someone's cheating on you. If he has to stay late at work a lot, and ends up having an affair, in hindsight that's a red flag. But if he DOESN'T have an affair, then he's... just working late.



BRJ's problems existed long before the Black Friday Sale.

But some folks with some clout who wanted to make a buck (or get gear for free) could be very convincing.


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 4, 2020)

Kiesels not even in the same universe. 

everyone who has ordered one has gotten one. 

Qa issues are shit you can deal with when you have a legitimate business.


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## lurè (Aug 4, 2020)

Yup, If you fuck up 10 builds over 10'000 is still acceptable.

I don't know what issues had those people with their kiesel builds; but the secret is not to go crazy with custom features. If you add pantone color matching, exotic translucent finishes and non returnabel options, chances of getting a lemon drastically increase.


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## possumkiller (Aug 4, 2020)

I thought all the trendy cool forum djent artists back then were jumping from one "amazing" builder to the next and dragging SSO hype with them? Those guys were raving about how awesome BRJs, Viks, S7Gs, Shermans, and anyone else that would give them free gear and posting high-quality macro shots of their hoards for all the forum kids to drool over.

I didn't know all of that about Keith. That sucks. I guess I can toss him in the same category as misha mansour.

It's pretty funny at the end of the day that misha mansour got his Daemoness sig model built by Jackson and keef got his BRJ sig built by Schecter. People like to whine and piss all over Ran for copying Ken Lawrence's copies of ESP's copies of Gibsons but nobody has a problem with misha and Jackson ripping off Dylan or keef and Schecter ripping of BRJ.


----------



## Emperoff (Aug 4, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The problem is, folks just don't want to see them. They want the cool guitar for a cooler price.



+



MaxOfMetal said:


> BRJ's problems existed long before the Black Friday Sale.
> 
> But some folks with some clout who wanted to make a buck (or get gear for free) could be very convincing.



This is really the issue here. I was a big Merrow/Periphery fan at the time. If big names on this forum ( mentioned above) wholeheartedly support the guy plus having an associated reputation due to family legacy (BCR) it's much harder to see the red flags. It "only" took me a year and 50+ pages inton that thread to see the truth. And it went up to 270...

When you see things like this it all clicks a little bit better:


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## eaeolian (Aug 4, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> nobody has a problem with misha and Jackson ripping off Dylan or keef and Schecter ripping of BRJ.



There was no BRJ to rip off at that point - he had folded.

Misha's is really a different deal, having played both guitars - really it's just the inlay that Daemoness added, the rest is just an RGA. Literally just an Ibanez with Jackson on the headstock. Misha didn't like the "more Jackson" prototype they made him - as I understand it, anyway - and it's now for sale at Atomic Music in College Park. I personally like it much better than the production models, but it's not my guitar.


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## possumkiller (Aug 4, 2020)

eaeolian said:


> There was no BRJ to rip off at that point - he had folded.
> 
> Misha's is really a different deal, having played both guitars - really it's just the inlay that Daemoness added, the rest is just an RGA. Literally just an Ibanez with Jackson on the headstock. Misha didn't like the "more Jackson" prototype they made him - as I understand it, anyway - and it's now for sale at Atomic Music in College Park. I personally like it much better than the production models, but it's not my guitar.


The big extended upper horn, sharpened horns, and the headstock on the Jackson look an awful lot like a Daemoness. I don't remember misha ever having an RGAs. The fact that BRJ guitars did not exist as a company anymore is off the point I am making. People here are pretty biased about who they will let by with making copies or not.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 4, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> The big extended upper horn, sharpened horns, and the headstock on the Jackson look an awful lot like a Daemoness. I don't remember misha ever having an RGAs. The fact that BRJ guitars did not exist as a company anymore is off the point I am making. People here are pretty biased about who they will let by with making copies or not.



He's part of the reason the RGA121/321s made a comeback in popularity and had an RGA420 when he was an Ibanez endorsee.

It's worth mentioning that Jackson had that headstock before Daemoness even existed.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Aug 4, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> +
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Random kind of unrelated question.

Did/does Merrow have a killer day job, or is he just some rich kid?

That house/studio set up is absolutely insane and I am sceptical someone can make enough from music in 2020 to live this well.


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## eaeolian (Aug 4, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> The big extended upper horn, sharpened horns, and the headstock on the Jackson look an awful lot like a Daemoness. I don't remember misha ever having an RGAs. The fact that BRJ guitars did not exist as a company anymore is off the point I am making. People here are pretty biased about who they will let by with making copies or not.



When I met Misha - long before he became *MISHA* - most of the time he played an RGA121. His Jacksons are a slightly modified RGA with a Jackson SLS headstock and piranha inlays, and I know where those came from. 

Also, people here are biased about EVERYTHING.


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## budda (Aug 4, 2020)

Didn't Sherman fuck over seanbabs?


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## eaeolian (Aug 4, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> Custom guitars are the new black.



I continually find it hilarious that people pay a lot of money for a "custom" guitar to move the volume knob.


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## eaeolian (Aug 4, 2020)

budda said:


> Didn't Sherman fuck over seanbabs?



I think he eventually made that one mostly right. Others, however, got totally screwed.


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## Emperoff (Aug 4, 2020)

eaeolian said:


> I continually find it hilarious that people pay a lot of money for a "custom" guitar to move the volume knob.



People can be extremely nitpicking about trivial stuff. Having owned a SLAT3-7 I'm sure you'll agree.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 4, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wouldn't say "out of nowhere" the dude was ripping off IP and charging rock bottom prices, it wasn't going to last forever. Not to mention most thought they were decent "for the money" which is always a red flag.



It's crazy he lasted as long as he did. He used to buy the cheapest wood possible which is why a lot of guitars warped and even cracked and he had zero profit margin on his builds. It was just a hobby.



possumkiller said:


> I thought all the trendy cool forum djent artists back then were jumping from one "amazing" builder to the next and dragging SSO hype with them? Those guys were raving about how awesome BRJs, Viks, S7Gs, Shermans, and anyone else that would give them free gear and posting high-quality macro shots of their hoards for all the forum kids to drool over.



Its debatable but I feel the worst point of this was Invictus. Artists were signed up and jumped to the front of the queue. Without every playing them they raved about how Invictus was the new Blackmachine and attacked anyone who dared speak a negative word about them. When artists finally got builds they were complete lemons but stayed silent until it was way to late. So many lost money by forking out thousands of pounds for them from artists hyping them up.



Ataraxia2320 said:


> Did/does Merrow have a killer day job, or is he just some rich kid?
> 
> That house/studio set up is absolutely insane and I am sceptical someone can make enough from music in 2020 to live this well.



The KM7 was Schecter's biggest selling artist model when it first hit and then he got two revisions of it and a USA version so that's a lot more income than you'd make from touring/music sales. I think he also works in graphic design and media.


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## Soya (Aug 4, 2020)

Also add that he worked for Seymour Duncan and mixes for band recordings, at least he used to.


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## eaeolian (Aug 4, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> People can be extremely nitpicking about trivial stuff. Having owned a SLAT3-7 I'm sure you'll agree.



Yep. Admittedly, my biggest problem with it was structural - the damn bridge wasn't high enough, and it's not like I could shim it - but everything else was manageable. I also recognize that I'm a dinosaur.


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 4, 2020)

There are still parts of the music industry that are profitable. Mixing/mastering/recording is definitely typically more lucrative these days than actually being in a band. Plus, like Lorcan Ward said the whole KM7 being wildly popular, I'm sure he gets a good chunk of change from there. He's certainly not making tons of money off of Conquering Dystopia or any of his other projects I'm sure. (I'm sure he gets some money, but he ain't making a living off of it.) 

Not sure what his day-job is but like Soya said he did work at Seymour Duncan, which I'm sure paid at least reasonably well on top of all of his other endeavors. I know when I contacted SD for something back when the original KM7 came out that it was him that got back to me.

As for ordering a custom just to move a knob, I do find that funny too, but I guess I get it... Especially when it's *typically* paired with a non-standard finish or something. If I ever went full custom, (I don't think I ever will outside of something like Kiesel) I can't imagine paying a huge price for such a small alteration, but I understand that sometimes somebody's dream guitar is just that close to a production guitar. I know I have a pretty extensive list of things I'd prefer, so I'd hopefully get my money's worth. What I find weird is people ordering customs and they keep swapping out features or changing their mind. Getting a custom really feels like one of those "I want this and it exists nowhere else, so I'll have someone build it for me" kind of things to me.


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## mbardu (Aug 4, 2020)

Señor Voorhees said:


> What I find weird is people ordering customs and they keep swapping out features or changing their mind. Getting a custom really feels like one of those "I want this and it exists nowhere else, so I'll have someone build it for me" kind of things to me.



There's some degree of variation there and you're conflating 2 different things.

The last not-quite-custom I ordered was my Kiesel V7x.
I wanted a headless guitar with a flat radius, "short" scale for a 7 (ie no bigger than 25.5), a trem, a piezo, and nice looks- ideally in green.
Not really a production guitar I could find that would give me that. Yet, I went back and forth on woods, figured top or not, exact finish, pickups, fretboard etc.
Even the actual guitar shape and construction bolt-on vs neck through, I was not married to a particular one. 

Not sure what's wrong with considering different specs or changing one's mind in a scenario like this one. Even when you're buying a mass produced guitar, you're still considering and comparing different models, and you may change your mind in the decision process...


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## Alexlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> It's crazy he lasted as long as he did. He used to buy the cheapest wood possible which is why a lot of guitars warped and even cracked and he had zero profit margin on his builds. It was just a hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Plus they pay him to do clinics all over the world for the brand. must be making a killing on Royalties alone Tho


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 4, 2020)

mbardu said:


> There's some degree of variation there and you're conflating 2 different things.
> 
> The last not-quite-custom I ordered was my Kiesel V7x.
> I wanted a headless guitar with a flat radius, "short" scale for a 7 (ie no bigger than 25.5), a trem, a piezo, and nice looks- ideally in green.
> ...



This is actually more than fair. I never really considered going back and forth on aesthetics or something while having some definite set-in-stone specs picked out. Just because you KNOW you want this shape, that scale, and no tone knob doesn't mean you have to be dead set on the woods/pickups/colors/bridge type/etc.


----------



## Edika (Aug 4, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Its debatable but I feel the worst point of this was Invictus. Artists were signed up and jumped to the front of the queue. Without every playing them they raved about how Invictus was the new Blackmachine and attacked anyone who dared speak a negative word about them. When artists finally got builds they were complete lemons but stayed silent until it was way to late. So many lost money by forking out thousands of pounds for them from artists hyping them up.



I remember that clusterfuck! It was so painful to read how it unfolded!


----------



## wannabguitarist (Aug 4, 2020)

It's weird re-reading that Rico thread (slow week at work) and seeing that Angus guy popping in and giving people advice. I remember when that guy was all but chased off the forums for complaining about Sherman issues back when he was still making some gorgeous guitars for people on here.

Just a couple months into the Black Friday fiasco it looks like someone popped in and shared their experience with BRJ and everyone was like "nah fuck off man you're full of shit" . Very similar to what happened to the Angus guy, from an outsider's perspective at least. It's kind of tragic really.

Didn't know Bulb was still hyping BRJ after things fell apart. That's a bummer.


----------



## Merrekof (Aug 4, 2020)

I've been going through the old BRJ thread as well.
That is just painful to read, the signs were there but many had so much faith in the man. Because of this, every BRJ from 2010 and younger is seen as haunted and most (if not all) SSO users advise to stay away.


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## SpaceDock (Aug 4, 2020)

The problem with buying any BRJ is that it might be someone else’s guitar they paid for and never got. In fact my guitar that I paid in full for was sold on eBay, my last name written in the control cavity, and eBay would not help me at all since the guitar was never in my possession. I don’t know too many people that would okay with owning stolen merchandise.


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 4, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> At what point do you see a ton of "rumors" and just ignore it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I don't dispute any of those issues. I just mean when one thing goes wrong it's hard to tell if that's the tip of the iceberg, or if it's just an isolated incident, and things are fine outside of that. Daemoness is a good example right now - Dylan is way behind on orders and shipping times, and a lot of people are wondering if it's safe to put in an order currently. He could at any time just say he's out of the game, and not much could be done. So we're really betting on him having good character and wanting to be in it for the long haul. 

Overall, you're right - someone will see something unsavory about a guitar builder, and "blow the whistle." Then a bunch of defenders pile on, and proceed with ad hominem attacks. It's super difficult to support new luthiers without knowing their product, or how they'll perform as business people. I don't envy anyone wanting to get into this profession, given the crap their peers have pulled.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 5, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I don't dispute any of those issues. I just mean when one thing goes wrong it's hard to tell if that's the tip of the iceberg, or if it's just an isolated incident, and things are fine outside of that. Daemoness is a good example right now - Dylan is way behind on orders and shipping times, and a lot of people are wondering if it's safe to put in an order currently. He could at any time just say he's out of the game, and not much could be done. So we're really betting on him having good character and wanting to be in it for the long haul.
> 
> Overall, you're right - someone will see something unsavory about a guitar builder, and "blow the whistle." Then a bunch of defenders pile on, and proceed with ad hominem attacks. It's super difficult to support new luthiers without knowing their product, or how they'll perform as business people. I don't envy anyone wanting to get into this profession, given the crap their peers have pulled.



The whole point is that there is some nuance to all of this. It's not as easy as "no delivery = scammer" or "bad communication = everyone is fucked". 

Situations like this tend to be somewhat fluid.


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 5, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The whole point is that there is some nuance to all of this. It's not as easy as "no delivery = scammer" or "bad communication = everyone is fucked".
> 
> Situations like this tend to be somewhat fluid.



Totally. Which is so maddening a consumer! One day I’ll learn how to do some of this stuff, and go full Pondman and never have to buy again.


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## twguitar (Aug 5, 2020)

No denying what Jr did, imo both Ricos were awful business men. That doesn't deny the fact that they both put out some incredible instruments. As others have said, if you can play the guitar and all is good, grab it, you won't regret it.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 5, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Totally. Which is so maddening a consumer! One day I’ll learn how to do some of this stuff, and go full Pondman and never have to buy again.



I look forward to your 10 string multiscale curved fret hybrid baritone Universe.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 5, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> I've been going through the old BRJ thread as well.
> That is just painful to read, the signs were there but many had so much faith in the man. Because of this, every BRJ from 2010 and younger is seen as haunted and most (if not all) SSO users advise to stay away.


That's because dogpiling on dissenters used to be s.o.p. for SSO collectivists back in the day.


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## mbardu (Aug 5, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> That's because dogpiling on dissenters used to be s.o.p. for SSO collectivists back in the day.



_used to be_ lmao
Groupthink and collectively attacking those who don't strictly toe the line of what's good and what's not is still pretty much a defining feature of the community here  . 
I should say that's the case in _a lot_ of communities to be fair to SSO, but things here specifically have not changed. It's just that depending on where the wind blows, who to hate and who to worship slowly changes over time so you have to adapt (luckily you usually have plenty of time) if you want to keep getting all those easy likes.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 5, 2020)

mbardu said:


> _used to be_ lmao
> Groupthink and collectively attacking those who don't strictly toe the line of what's good and what's not is still pretty much a defining feature of the community here  .
> I should say that's the case in _a lot_ of communities to be fair to SSO, but things here specifically have not changed. It's just that depending on where the wind blows, who to hate and who to worship slowly changes over time so you have to adapt (luckily you usually have plenty of time) if you want to keep getting all those easy likes.



I'd argue that SSO has actually gotten more mellow since the original time of that thread for sure. I think one of the biggest changes for that is Facebook becoming a thing and people moving to that platform. and only really people who love/care/enjoy these forums have stayed where as before Facebook, forums like this were the only place where you could nerd-out with others about guitars with more than 6 strings.


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## tian (Aug 5, 2020)

Having gone through the BRJ thread on a whim about a month ago, it was the weirdest mix of nostalgia recognizing posters that have since disappeared into the ether and "huh, that was pretty fucked up..."

As someone who doesn't post often but has lurked pretty consistently for a long time I do miss how active the forum used to be but I absolutely do not miss the incessant churn of the various flavor of the week custom guitars and other gear. Also there were several notable turning points where artists went from genuinely engaging to just hanging around the hype themselves and hawk their sponsored stuff. It always felt like the artists that posted and really just wanted to 'talk shop' (and there were some big names) never lasted as long as the posters with a new sig guitar every three months...

Anyway, I'm just glad that at that time I was old enough to have the income to throw at some hyped dumbshit and have fun but didn't have so much income as to get sucked all the way into the shiny custom guitar rat race.

EDIT:


possumkiller said:


> I don't remember misha ever having an RGAs.


and this made me feel old as fuck lol


----------



## Frostbite (Aug 5, 2020)

tian said:


> and this made me feel old as fuck lol


Same lmao


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 6, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I look forward to your 10 string multiscale curved fret hybrid baritone Universe.


Haha, joke’s on you! It’s gonna be a 10 string multiscale curved fret hybrid baritone Jem!


----------



## Dayn (Aug 6, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I'd argue that SSO has actually gotten more mellow since the original time of that thread for sure. I think one of the biggest changes for that is Facebook becoming a thing and people moving to that platform. and only really people who love/care/enjoy these forums have stayed where as before Facebook, forums like this were the only place where you could nerd-out with others about guitars with more than 6 strings.


Especially with the removal of the stupid reputation feature. The single best decision I've ever seen. Now people only have to worry about how to live with their objectively wrong opinions about gear, instead of fake internet points.


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## jephjacques (Aug 6, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Haha, joke’s on you! It’s gonna be a 10 string multiscale curved fret hybrid baritone Jem!



wow owned


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## jephjacques (Aug 6, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I'd argue that SSO has actually gotten more mellow since the original time of that thread for sure. I think one of the biggest changes for that is Facebook becoming a thing and people moving to that platform. and only really people who love/care/enjoy these forums have stayed where as before Facebook, forums like this were the only place where you could nerd-out with others about guitars with more than 6 strings.



Internet forums tend to become more toxic over time, it's a miracle (and due to the good mods) that it generally doesn't seem to have happened here.


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## Andromalia (Aug 6, 2020)

It could be worse, they could have been Star Citizen backers, too.


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## SpaceDock (Aug 6, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> Internet forums tend to become more toxic over time, it's a miracle (and due to the good mods) that it generally doesn't seem to have happened here.



I thank the awesome moderators for this 

I wonder what Facebook would be like if they could keep the wheels on the tracks like SSO does?


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 6, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> I thank the awesome moderators for this
> 
> I wonder what Facebook would be like if they could keep the wheels on the tracks like SSO does?



actually a lot of facebook groups I'm in are pretty fine. it really depends on the moderation. 

brand specific groups are almost all terrible though


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 6, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> actually a lot of facebook groups I'm in are pretty fine. it really depends on the moderation.
> 
> brand specific groups are almost all terrible though


facts. The kiesel and ormsby groups I was in for a while were toxic as fuck. Still not as bad as the FoRtIn ArMy group though.


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## Forkface (Aug 6, 2020)

man, this thread has all the heavy hitters of the site posting on it lmao, feels like some sort of Mount Olympus meeting.
i remember going through the black friday thread a long time ago, and i dont think i have the mental fortitude to go through it again.

that particular thread is the reason i felt queasy when the daemoness stuff started coming up.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 6, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I'd argue that SSO has actually gotten more mellow since the original time of that thread for sure.


I tend to agree. If you posted a Blackmachine copy years ago, you'd get piled on the likes of which you've never seen. These days, no one cares lol. 
Same with the Kiesel stuff. Used to be a lot of Kiesel drama around here, and people don't really seem to care much anymore. The never again thread doesn't even really seem to be that active for what's essentially a megathread. 



tian said:


> As someone who doesn't post often but has lurked pretty consistently for a long time I do miss how active the forum used to be but I absolutely do not miss the incessant churn of the various flavor of the week custom guitars and other gear.



I definitely _*do*_ miss it; I just wish that it was all done by...you know...solid, reputable brands. I started lurking around here probably around 2009~2010ish and I learned so much in those first few years just by checking out all of the kooky new gear that got posted. Figured out what I liked in a guitar, found what aesthetic options I appreciated, what works with what, all of that; but it did definitely suck seeing people consistently getting burned. I'm all for the FOTM gear carousel as long as people are getting what they paid for and it all works.


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## budda (Aug 6, 2020)

Wait people care about getting likes on here?


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## Forkface (Aug 6, 2020)

budda said:


> Wait people care about getting likes on here?


not gonna lie, i wish my likes to posts ratio was higher  i guess im not as funny as i thought i was.

all seriousness though, i doubt people post for the purpose of getting likes, but i do think there is certain level of "satisfaction" (for lack of a better word) in finding out that other people share your opinion on certain things.


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## Andromalia (Aug 6, 2020)

budda said:


> Wait people care about getting likes on here?


Remember reputation !


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 6, 2020)

Forkface said:


> not gonna lie, i wish my likes to posts ratio was higher



Probably got screwed up by that long period where they were disabled but you kept posting anyway.
I always thought of Likes as shorthand for 'This is a good take' or 'Happy NGD' without flooding the thread with a ton of identical posts. I like 'em cause it's an easy way to tell who's on your same wavelength.


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## budda (Aug 6, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Remember reputation !



On 4 boards and never bother to look


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## MetalDaze (Aug 6, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Remember reputation !



I miss the ban thread.


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## SpaceDock (Aug 6, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Remember reputation !



Some of the rep was really terrible! I remember some dude that posted less than a dozen times and had mad rep for posting that he got it on with his teacher.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 6, 2020)

Compared to other metal orientated forums this one is still very active, with new members staying around and old members regularly coming back. Andy sneap UM is a ghost town, Petrucci forum is gone, any band specific forums are long abandoned, big sites like ultimate guitar and ultimate metal have a fraction of the activity they used to.

I’ve always enjoyed this forum and I hope everyone stays around to keep it active. I’ve made a lot of friends here and it’s cool how much history there is(even if it some of it was harsh learning experiences for us). 

My biggest problem with FB is I rarely see anyone nerd out anymore. It’s just “new album is really good”, “guitar tone is tight” or “multiscale ads tension”. It’s so rare to see really in-depth discussion about bands, instruments or mixing like you did on earlier forums.


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## Soya (Aug 6, 2020)

I was really bummed when the Mike Portnoy forum shut down, that was a very long running forum. Since 99 I think.


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## MASS DEFECT (Aug 7, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> My biggest problem with FB is I rarely see anyone nerd out anymore. It’s just “new album is really good”, “guitar tone is tight” or “multiscale ads tension”. It’s so rare to see really in-depth discussion about bands, instruments or mixing like you did on earlier forums.



Hard to find threads in FB, too. And you scroll endlessly to get to the replies that make sense. Such a PITA.


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## Vostre Roy (Aug 7, 2020)

MetalDaze said:


> I miss the ban thread.



Zebov likes this


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## Ataraxia2320 (Aug 7, 2020)

I think this is the only forum that I used to frequent that still has active users. 

It's a crying shame imo. Facebook threads are a pain in the ass and people never get so in depth. 

All this has been said by other users here but I guess I just wanted to say that I agree.


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## trem licking (Aug 7, 2020)

adding to the forum love. discovered many things here, entertaining time killer and a chance to share good/bad experiences with gear and the like. this is the only forum i frequent, mostly quality here. carry on


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## eaeolian (Aug 9, 2020)

Vostre Roy said:


> Zebov likes this


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## I play music (Aug 9, 2020)

In his latest video, Keith Merrow answers Ola's question for his second favorite guitar brand after Schecter with ... BRJ


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## Merrekof (Aug 9, 2020)

I play music said:


> In his latest video, Keith Merrow answers Ola's question for his second favorite guitar brand after Schecter with ... BRJ


Makes sense. His BRJ was probably payed for by the black friday bunch..


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## jephjacques (Aug 9, 2020)

my second favorite car is the subaru brat


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 9, 2020)

I play music said:


> In his latest video, Keith Merrow answers Ola's question for his second favorite guitar brand after Schecter with ... BRJ


Sounds like some hot shill on shill action right there.


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## Vyn (Aug 9, 2020)

I play music said:


> In his latest video, Keith Merrow answers Ola's question for his second favorite guitar brand after Schecter with ... BRJ



It's worth noting that he did mention that he was specifically talking about that example and not the brand itself. He did mention that BRJ screwed a lot of people over in that video.


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## mikernaut (Aug 10, 2020)

I figure some of the endorsers for the most part may have gotten a really well done guitar so that's why they backed BRJ initially. I know Nick/Zimbloth loved them before things went south and was part of the reason why I ordered my 1st BRJ. Although I remember having a private conversation with Nolly about his guitar and he had issues with his build and was totally honest, upfront about it and didn't want to be associated with BRJ after that. My 1st build is still probably one of the best guitars I have owned and if I could only keep one guitar it would probably be it. My 2nd build is nice as well but does not have the magic the 1st one did and Bernie somehow managed to mess up the inlays and paint job even though I supplied him with a tight mock up and plenty of photo ref. All in all let's not kid ourselves he was just a name/ face living off his Dad's rep /name. If you got a good guitar from him it's because of his builders south of the boarder not him in the least. Then when the Black Friday Sale hit they got completely overwhelmed and probably just said "fuck this".


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## mikernaut (Aug 10, 2020)

I also had the displeasure of having to sit on the phone with Bernie as he would rant for 30 mins about other customers complaining about their build issues or changing specs then he would go completely bi polar and be super nice towards me after I sat and just held the phone waiting for him to be done complaining about Joe Sousa's build and others. Not a good way to give a customer a 1st impression of you and your business/character. Guess it was the warning sign for the upcoming mental breakdown :/


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## Hollowway (Aug 10, 2020)

mikernaut said:


> I figure some of the endorsers for the most part may have gotten a really well done guitar so that's why they backed BRJ initially. I know Nick/Zimbloth loved them before things went south and was part of the reason why I ordered my 1st BRJ. Although I remember having a private conversation with Nolly about his guitar and he had issues with his build and was totally honest, upfront about it and didn't want to be associated with BRJ after that. My 1st build is still probably one of the best guitars I have owned and if I could only keep one guitar it would probably be it. My 2nd build is nice as well but does not have the magic the 1st one did and Bernie somehow managed to mess up the inlays and paint job even though I supplied him with a tight mock up and plenty of photo ref. All in all let's not kid ourselves he was just a name/ face living off his Dad's rep /name. If you got a good guitar from him it's because of his builders south of the boarder not him in the least. Then when the Black Friday Sale hit they got completely overwhelmed and probably just said "fuck this".


Yours was that red and white one, right? I got my pre-black friday one from Nick when he was still a dealer for BRJ. I think that was right around the time you got yours. (And as an aside, you’ve always had killer guitars. The BRJ, the skervy, etc.)


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## mikernaut (Aug 10, 2020)

Yeah, I got a 6 string charcoal quilt Jekyll and then right before the black friday ordeal I ordered the red 7 string with white binding. Also thanx for the kind words on various guitars I have owned, wish I could kept a few more of the unique ones over the years but sum times life happens and you gotta thin the collection.


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## Papaoneil (Sep 7, 2020)

I had a Jekyll that I’m pretty sure was pre Friday run that was decent. But looking back I’d have never bought it seeing as how I got it right when all of this was going on.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 7, 2020)

I seriously hope this place sticks around. When I was a few years younger I had a lot of fun on video game forums but they eventually went to shit, and Reddit just destroys your soul. No sort of upvote feature on here is really nice and I've met a lot of good people already so


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## eaeolian (Sep 8, 2020)

TheBolivianSniper said:


> I seriously hope this place sticks around. When I was a few years younger I had a lot of fun on video game forums but they eventually went to shit, and Reddit just destroys your soul. No sort of upvote feature on here is really nice and I've met a lot of good people already so



Well, I've been a member for 15 years - despite Shannon almost banning me on my first day - so I doubt it's going away any time soon.


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## SpaceDock (Sep 8, 2020)

Ha, I got put in time out when I first started because I made some really trashy comments. Learned my lesson, thanks @MaxOfMetal


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## jaxadam (Sep 8, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> Ha, I got put in time out when I first started because I made some really trashy comments. Learned my lesson, thanks @MaxOfMetal



You?! NO WAY :wink:


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## SpaceDock (Sep 8, 2020)

It was really bad


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## drgordonfreeman (Sep 9, 2020)

I’ve seen people mentioning in this thread and elsewhere that Daemoness is going the way of BRJ. What’s the story there?


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 9, 2020)

drgordonfreeman said:


> I’ve seen people mentioning in this thread and elsewhere that Daemoness is going the way of BRJ. What’s the story there?



In a word: hyperbole.

The tail end of the big Daemoness thread sums it up, but basically Dylan fell way behind on builds, communication broke down, and eventually *he admitted fault and refunded folks* and is restructuring his operation to move away from custom orders to in-stocks. Bolded as that's probably the most important part.

Not every situation of a builder running into problems is a 1:1 of the BRJ situation but it seems the second there's whispers of problems that's where everyone goes.

The situation with BRJ was fairly unique in scope, involving numerous parties and dozens of customers over years vs. the usual "builder fails, goes ghost" that has plagued the industry since it began.


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## Mendez (Sep 9, 2020)

Oh damn the BRJ nostalgia!

I was around when that was unfolding and boy I'm glad I was some broke ass college kid otherwise I would of lost so much cash during that era of custom builders. I think I'll go back and read that whole thread again for old times sake!

I'm glad SSO is still around, I mostly just lurk for the last couple of years but it's awesome to still see it up and running. I use it for music news, music recommendations, and who doesn't like looking at NGD threads?!


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## Fred the Shred (Sep 9, 2020)

I revisited the BRJ Black Friday shitshow, I mean thread, the other day. There were some very entertaining (for all the wrong reasons) individual threads back then, including one where a BRJ shill whose username I can't remember was defending him saying all guitars were "handmade in the USA, with knives!" only to be harshly reminded that doing the early stages of carving that way is a rather typical approach in Mexico, where BR senior did have a fair bit of work done back in the day.

Ah man, the nostalgia! BRJ didn't just rip off people, he was the true bringer of "drunk side markers" to the forefront!


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## mikernaut (Sep 9, 2020)

"Ah man, the nostalgia! BRJ didn't just rip off people, he was the true bringer of "drunk side markers" to the forefront!"

Or in my case, completely wrong inlays and paint color, even though I did him a supertight photoshop mock up.


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## Merrekof (Sep 9, 2020)

mikernaut said:


> "Ah man, the nostalgia! BRJ didn't just rip off people, he was the true bringer of "drunk side markers" to the forefront!"
> 
> Or in my case, completely wrong inlays and paint color, even though I did him a supertight photoshop mock up.


What did you do with that guitar eventually? I can't imagine it brings joy to play because of the whole thing you as a customer had to endure.


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## mikernaut (Sep 10, 2020)

I still have it. It has no issues other then the wrong inlays and paint color. He was in the process of doing a rebuild right before the Black Friday ordeal and I was told I could keep both versions if I sent the hardshell case to Bernie to ship me the new version. Then shit hit the fan and I never got the 2nd version or the case back.

Basically I was going for road flare red with small horizonal rectangle inlays across the B string side. They still had trouble getting the color, so I just said make it neon pink and be done with it. sigh

1st version-



2nd version in progress-



and throwback pic for lulz with 2 random dudes  -


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## Mklane (Sep 11, 2020)

Any of you guys on that BC Rich Junkies group page? BRJ has been on there saying he is coming back. Wonder if he is planning on taking care of the old guys that got the shaft first?


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 11, 2020)

Mklane said:


> Wonder if he is planning on taking care of the old guys that got the shaft first?


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## MetalDaze (Sep 11, 2020)

Mklane said:


> Any of you guys on that BC Rich Junkies group page? BRJ has been on there saying he is coming back. Wonder if he is planning on taking care of the old guys that got the shaft first?



We are all a little older and wiser now. He better be ready for the onslaught of discontent.


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## Mklane (Sep 11, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


>



Yeah, I already know the answer to that one haha. He is live on the Junkies page right now, maybe I'll ask him lol


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 11, 2020)

Mklane said:


> Yeah, I already know the answer to that one haha. He is live on the Junkies page right now, maybe I'll ask him lol



The term "junkie" is pretty apt for that group. 

Back when the BRJ BFR shit show was in full swing fucking wackos from that group and similar were sending downright creepy hate mail my way, and even threatening some of the folks who BRJ scammed. It was a mess. 

It kinda shifted me away from posting online for awhile, made my FB account super locked down and deleted just above everyone from here. 

Absolute cesspool.


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## Mklane (Sep 11, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The term "junkie" is pretty apt for that group.
> 
> Back when the BRJ BFR shit show was in full swing fucking wackos from that group and similar were sending downright creepy hate mail my way, and even threatening some of the folks who BRJ scammed. It was a mess.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Strange cult of dudes that hate and love each other all at the same time, its like checking out a bad car crash.


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## mikernaut (Sep 11, 2020)

Wow this interview stream.


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## Vyn (Sep 11, 2020)

mikernaut said:


> Wow this interview stream.



Link?


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## mikernaut (Sep 11, 2020)

not sure if you have to be a member, I was back in the day so I can see this currently, https://www.facebook.com/groups/bcrichjunkies/ forgot about this Dave Cohen guy , wow what a character

"The new company is gonna be called BRJ guitars cuz the old Rico Jr. name has been tainted!"


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## Vyn (Sep 12, 2020)

I'm listening to the replay now. Jesus fucking christ. This thing is ego central.


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## Velokki (Sep 12, 2020)

mikernaut said:


> not sure if you have to be a member, I was back in the day so I can see this currently, https://www.facebook.com/groups/bcrichjunkies/ forgot about this Dave Cohen guy , wow what a character
> 
> "The new company is gonna be called BRJ guitars cuz the old Rico Jr. name has been tainted!"



Ok wtf?!
I could only read like 4 posts. I'd imagine a flatearthers' convention or a #FilmYourHospital-group would have similar kind of civilized discussion.

If we could have the "All Gas No Brakes"-team go a BRJ fanclub gathering and film it, I would gofundme the hell out of it.


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## Velokki (Sep 12, 2020)

This is the level of conversation going on:


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## Merrekof (Sep 12, 2020)

Velokki said:


> This is the level of conversation going on:


This is why I left facebook and never looked back.


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## watson503 (Sep 12, 2020)

Cohen and BRJ vie for biggest slimeball/scumbag in the industry. Cohen keeps pushing this "If BRJ did what they say he did, he'd be in jail - they robbed him of everything and even stole his underwear!" yet Donner and whoever else they lay blame on have not been jailed. Total and complete bullshit and the "Junkies" just eat it up. Fucking trash.


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## Vyn (Sep 13, 2020)

So I've finished listening to all two and whatever hours the live steam was. I think I've lost a few brain cells. I don't know what's worse, BRJ coming back or the 'fans' lapping it all up completely ignoring the MOUNTAINS of evidence that BRJ is a complete wanker.


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## Emperoff (Sep 15, 2020)

Vyn said:


> So I've finished listening to all two and whatever hours the live steam was. I think I've lost a few brain cells. I don't know what's worse, BRJ coming back or the 'fans' lapping it all up completely ignoring the MOUNTAINS of evidence that BRJ is a complete wanker.



This is how it always goes. People just don't want to see the red flags. And I know because I was one of them. At least I have the excuse of being young and stupid at that time.


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## Mendez (Sep 15, 2020)

Been reading through the thread. I've reached the point where people have lost hope and just want to get something out of their money/get their money back. Also a new challenger appears! Chris G and his terrible media response post 

Edit: Also it's crazy how some people were still going back and buying spots. The amount of money given to him...just blows my mind


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## watson503 (Sep 20, 2020)

Just heard Bernie Rico Jr. passed-away this past Thursday


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## dmlinger (Sep 20, 2020)

watson503 said:


> Just heard Bernie Rico Jr. passed-away this past Thursday


Source??


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## Hollowway (Sep 20, 2020)

dmlinger said:


> Source??


Yeah, I just heard as well. It's all over FB. RIP. The guy did make off with some of my money, but I wouldn't wish an early death on anyone. Apparently he went to sleep with some painkillers and never woke up. He was a nice guy who wanted to make people happy, but didn't know how to effectively run a business or who to affiliate with. He's had a rough go, mentally, in the last several years. I hope Terri and his daughter are doing OK.


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## dmlinger (Sep 20, 2020)

That’s so sad, I really hate to hear that for him and his family


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## I play music (Sep 20, 2020)

dmlinger said:


> Source??


Yeah I also don't get why people just read some Facebook comment or don't now what and then tell it everyone but do not tell that they just read it in a random Facebook comment. 
If you don't care about the sources and truthfulness of your info what you get is a president like Trump. Oh wait ..


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## watson503 (Sep 20, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I just heard as well. It's all over FB. RIP. The guy did make off with some of my money, but I wouldn't wish an early death on anyone. Apparently he went to sleep with some painkillers and never woke up. He was a nice guy who wanted to make people happy, but didn't know how to effectively run a business or who to affiliate with. He's had a rough go, mentally, in the last several years. I hope Terri and his daughter are doing OK.


Most definitely. My heart goes out to his family and loved ones, hopefully Bernie can now find some peace.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 20, 2020)

Everyone knows my thoughts on BRJ.

But, as hard as it is to separate a person from the things they've done, no one should die this young. 

RIP


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## gunch (Sep 21, 2020)

1. People that I thought were cool or at least I tried to devil's advocate in my own head to explain their actions are actually shitbags with their hands out with a smile
2. I'm really glad I've never had enough money to lose it to the hype machine scam cycle


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## dmlinger (Sep 21, 2020)

I play music said:


> Yeah I also don't get why people just read some Facebook comment or don't now what and then tell it everyone but do not tell that they just read it in a random Facebook comment.
> If you don't care about the sources and truthfulness of your info what you get is a president like Trump. Oh wait ..



I agree. My request for a source was because I couldn't find anything mentioned about it on Google or anywhere and wanted to know if it was true.


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