# Epic fail at jazz audition



## Hybrid138 (Jan 20, 2011)

So I auditioned for jazz band and thought I knew my piece well but things didn't go like planned... At all... I had to audition as a section with a bass player and drummer (I hope I didn't affect their audition). Anyways, I had to improvise, which I'm usually comfortable doing, but I've never improvised over a 12 bar blues. Sorry if my terminology is wrong but I believe that is what he said. Apparently, I'm used to 8 bar? so I was coming in early or late. I would really like to improve on this so would anyone recommend any backing tracks or other sources to help me out?


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## Maniacal (Jan 20, 2011)

Why not just go on youtube, lots of blues tracks on there


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## Varcolac (Jan 20, 2011)

Seriously? Uh, okay. It's only like the second most-used chord progression ever.

Rock'n'Roll by Led Zepplin is a 12-bar blues. Folsom Prison Blues by Johnny Cash is likewise. And of course Chuck Berry's eternal Johnny B. Goode.

In jazz it's prevalent as all hell. Start with Glenn Miller's In the Mood and go forth from there.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 20, 2011)

So essentially you were improvising runs that started different themes or didn't fill the whole 12 bars is what I get? you were playing 8 bar type stuff in the middle and overlapping with 12s? Just find some 12 bar music, and listen to where it goes, if you want to play a full set of leads over it, plan accordingly. I personally hate 12 bar blues, but you can do other stuff in 12 bars.


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## Skyblue (Jan 20, 2011)

I really like Equinox by Coltrane for some random jazz-blues jamming~ 

And youtube and such is filled with Blues tracks... or just get a program like Band In A Box (that's what my teacher uses), set a 12-bar blues in any scale you'd like, and improvise~


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## JohnIce (Jan 20, 2011)

Hate to be that guy, but... if you're playing stuff you've worked out for 8-bar, you're not exactly improvising, are you?  It's the same chord progression, just more bars between the changes. It shouldn't affect your scale choice(es) in any way.


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## Skyblue (Jan 21, 2011)

JohnIce said:


> Hate to be that guy, but... if you're playing stuff you've worked out for 8-bar, you're not exactly improvising, are you?  It's the same chord progression, just more bars between the changes. It shouldn't affect your scale choice(es) in any way.


Well, as my teacher once told- in a great performance night, you'll be improvising about 30% of the time. 
what he meant, was that whenever you're working on a piece, you'll usually create and prepare all kinds of licks, transitions between scales, or certain arpeggios you'd like to use. obviously you'll improvise when performing, but a large portion of it will be sort of premade. 

and when he's improving 8 bar stuff over 12 bar things, I'd guess he'll change scales not in time... unless I didn't understand either his explanation or yours~


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## JohnIce (Jan 21, 2011)

Skyblue said:


> Well, as my teacher once told- in a great performance night, you'll be improvising about 30% of the time.
> what he meant, was that whenever you're working on a piece, you'll usually create and prepare all kinds of licks, transitions between scales, or certain arpeggios you'd like to use. obviously you'll improvise when performing, but a large portion of it will be sort of premade.
> 
> and when he's improving 8 bar stuff over 12 bar things, I'd guess he'll change scales not in time... unless I didn't understand either his explanation or yours~



Naturally, Carl Verheyen has said the same thing, but more relating to the fact that much of what you play is in the muscle memory, and what you might think of as new licks are really permutations of your old licks. A 100% improvised piece is incredibly hard to do, and would probably have to be played quite slowly. When speed is involved, the muscle memory is activated.

Constructing lines and licks to use in improv is all fine and well, but if you're doing it to a point where you can't take in the form of the song and the backing musicians, then you're doing it wrong. THAT to me is not improvisation, that is failing to superimpose your composition onto another composition. Which is what the OP experienced, and now wants help to overcome. Which is great, I'm certainly not trying to talk down on the OP


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## Hybrid138 (Jan 22, 2011)

I think my main issue was i didn't know when the chord progression was starting again because the piano wasn't just playing chords and the bass was constantly moving so i didn't know what the chord progression was and couldn't tell when it was starting again. I would do things like holding out a note as if the progression was going to start again but it didn't, and i just couldn't "feel" it. I guess because it was New to me. My friend heard from outside and said it was pretty good but i just know i can do way better and wasn't content with how i played. Sorry if i confused some of you guys with my wording. I actually did make it to a combo band and might play in our "big band" so it had a happy ending. I'm looking forward to learning a lot from this experience.

I've found some chords with a "+" sign, I'm not sure what this means yet... For example I see an Dm then and Dm+ so I assume there is a difference.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 22, 2011)

+ = augmented. Augmented = sharp 5th

To elaborate D = D F# A (for the major triad, root/tonic, 3rd and 5th)

Dm = D F A (minor is flat 3rd)

Dm+ = D F A# (flat 3rd, + sharp 5th)

You may also see chord inversions denoted as Dm+/F , that would denote a 1st inversion, because you are putting the 3rd in the base. 

Then you can have tensions, 7th chords etc, but those all just effect the flavour.


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## Hybrid138 (Jan 22, 2011)

Oh ok. Thanks i know some basic chord building and stuff but I've never seen the symbols for a lot of chords


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## SirMyghin (Jan 22, 2011)

Well if you want a few more 

Maj 7 means add a major 7th 
7th is dominant 7th, add a minor 7th
6th, same deal 

sus4/sus2 means you change the 3rd and play a 4th or a second (respectively)

dim = diminished and that means flat 3rd flat 5th

If you memorize the major triads, you can easily construct the minor,diminished and augmented triads as well as know the major 7th (1/2 step below root) minor 7th (1 step below root) and 6th (1.5 steps below root). 

Then you get stuff like 13th, which generally denotes a 6th above the chord, same goes for 9th, second above the chord (above being over the triad, next octave so to speak).


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## failshredder (Jan 22, 2011)

That's weird. Dm+ would be the same as Bb in first inversion (Bb6 in figured-bass terminology, which is what I'm used to). I've never seen a minor chord written as augmented.


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## Skyblue (Jan 23, 2011)

some chords are inversions of other chords, it happens 
choosing which name to call it depends on the scale you are on and so on (like you would write F## instead of G )


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## SirMyghin (Jan 23, 2011)

Skyblue said:


> some chords are inversions of other chords, it happens
> choosing which name to call it depends on the scale you are on and so on (like you would write F## instead of G )



Yep, it is all about context. When played in a line you will know which chord the enharmonic notes are supposed to be.


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## StratoJazz (Jan 26, 2011)

That's odd. 8 bar blues form is sort of uncommon, then again alot of rock songs will have a 8 bar phrase that's bluesy.

If you want to listen to some jazz tunes that have 12 bar forms, here are some i recommend:
Bag's Groove
Blues for alice
C jam blues
Billies Bounce
Equinox
Tenor Madness

There are millions of blues tunes. Just go on to youtube and check one out. Try to figure out or get the changes for the tune and try to play along.


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## Hybrid138 (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't mean to sound ignorant but from all the blues songs I've heard and all the blues licks/videos/lessons I've heard, I really don't like blues. I like jazz but blues always sounds generic and gross to me. I'm sure there is good blues out there but I haven't heard it. 

On topic

I'm taking some theory classes this year and it's helping me a lot more with chords. It's just having to build them in my head, then actually make the chord shape on the fretboard on the spot that is getting to me. I'm sure it's all just practice that I need. I've never play jazz but I like my experience so far.


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## Skyblue (Jan 28, 2011)

I can see why some might not like blues, as it might seem very repetitive, and without interesting harmony or so... I wouldn't ditch blues just yet though. the fact that it's simple helps you see how many different ideas you could try on such a simple structure of chords... plus, you can always try some Jazz-Blues. The usual Blues but with a Jazzy twist~ 

Anyway, good luck with learning~


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## dbuk01 (Feb 5, 2011)

Hey, just seen this thread, if your not sure on common chord symbols/meanings a really good book to get is Chord Chemistry by Ted Greene. I like his approach to arranging chord voicings in what he calls 'string sets' ie a 4 note chord in all its possible shapes on strings 1,2,3,4 then 2,3,4,5, then 3,4,5,6 then 4,5,6,7 then finally because we know some of us can..... 5,6,7,8 

Really helps with knowing your neck + notes a little bit better too. Start out simple so using Major 7, Minor 7 and Dom7 chord voicings then min7b5 augmented etc etc

Dan


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## SirMyghin (Feb 5, 2011)

removed


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## Durero (Feb 5, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Careful with your notation Dan, a dominant 7th is a minor 7th . I know you probably mean adding a dominant 7th to a minor chord, but the way you have said it could be confusing for others.



Dan's post is simply listing the most common 4 note chord structures. But it's not clear in your post when you mean to refer to chords and when you mean to refer to intervals.

"a dominant 7th is a minor 7th" is very unclear. A dominant 7th chord contains a minor 7th interval just like a minor 7th chord does.

And what do you mean by "adding a dominant 7th to a minor chord"? It sounds like you're referring to a dominant 7th as an interval, but it's a 4 note chord.


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## SirMyghin (Feb 5, 2011)

removed


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## zeppelinrock34 (Feb 5, 2011)

StratoJazz said:


> That's odd. 8 bar blues form is sort of uncommon, then again alot of rock songs will have a 8 bar phrase that's bluesy.
> 
> If you want to listen to some jazz tunes that have 12 bar forms, here are some i recommend:
> Bag's Groove
> ...



Blues for alice is always a fun one


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## Durero (Feb 5, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> sorry minor 7th to a minor chord, or a minor dominant 7th chord. While trying to clarify what he wrote I crossed words too. I crossed out of interval and chord terminology there, as did Dan (which I was hoping to rectify and failed). I have since fixed it.



Dan's post was correct. There's no such thing as a minor dominant 7th chord. A minor triad with a minor 7th interval added to it is called a minor 7th chord (m7). A dominant 7th cord is a major triad with a minor 7th interval added to it.


Edit: I see from the earlier posts you're misunderstanding dominant 7th to mean adding a minor 7th interval to a major or minor triad, but in fact it only applies to the major triad version.


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## SirMyghin (Feb 5, 2011)

Durero said:


> Dan's post was correct. There's no such thing as a minor dominant 7th chord. A minor triad with a minor 7th interval added to it is called a minor 7th chord (m7). A dominant 7th cord is a major triad with a minor 7th interval added to it.
> 
> 
> Edit: I see from the earlier posts you're misunderstanding dominant 7th to mean adding a minor 7th interval to a major or minor triad, but in fact it only applies to the major triad version.



Gotcha, I follow, thanks for clearing that up.


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## Trespass (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:

Twelve Bar blues is generally a I - IV - V over twelve bars. I mean, you don't have t even change key (although you should outline the major third of the V7 chord in a minor blues, which is out of key of the tonic natural minor scale. In a Gm blues, this would be the difference between F and F#. F is the seventh of the I chord (Gm7), fourth of the IV chord (Cm7), but clashes with the third of the V7 chord (D7))

This probably doesn't make much sense right now, but try your best to follow. I recommend you get a real sorry, _private_ jazz teacher as soon as possible. (High school music teachers are usually not that powerful musicians, and don't have the time to develop their craft technically and theoretically.)


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