# Dani Filth "Cheating" Live?



## SenorDingDong (Oct 31, 2012)

All right, despite my lack of excitement for the new album (to me, it's just not very good) I have a question for you guys; does he cheat with the high vocals live?

I've noticed, every time he does a high pitched scream, and I mean literally every single time, he uses puts two hands on the microphone. He could be in the middle of some of the deeper stuff, and as soon as he does a high pitched vocal, he squeezes the microphone between both hands. Now, I've heard it has a pitch shifter built in, and the reason he does this now (never used to do it before the past decade or so, when he had all those throat problems) is because there's a button on the microphone that, as I said, is a pitch shifter and raises the pitch of his voice, as he is no longer able to hit the highs. 


Anyone know if there is any truth to this? And if so, anyone else feel as if it's sort of like cheating, i.e. the equivalent of using Autotune or some such thing?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 31, 2012)

Weird, ask their guitarist that posts here


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## Mprinsje (Oct 31, 2012)

considering how weak and shrill his highs sound live, i guess not.


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## Demiurge (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm not sure how someone could make that kind of shriek at a lower register (and need to pitch-shift it).

I saw them live a few years back and whenever Dani screamed, it would make the PA feed back because it was so loud. I'd tend to think that if his vocals were being heavily processed, some limiting would at least be employed AND hitting a vocal processor with that loud of a signal would probably make the resulting shifted sound be noticeably artificial.


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 31, 2012)

SenorDingDong said:


> All right, despite my lack of excitement for the new album (to me, it's just not very good) I have a question for you guys; does he cheat with the high vocals live?
> 
> I've noticed, every time he does a high pitched scream, and I mean literally every single time, he uses puts two hands on the microphone. He could be in the middle of some of the deeper stuff, and as soon as he does a high pitched vocal, he squeezes the microphone between both hands. Now, I've heard it has a pitch shifter built in, and the reason he does this now (never used to do it before the past decade or so, when he had all those throat problems) is because there's a button on the microphone that, as I said, is a pitch shifter and raises the pitch of his voice, as he is no longer able to hit the highs.
> 
> ...



That's probably one of the dumbest things i've heard. A pitch shifter wouldn't get you the desired effect, for one. Neither would an autotuner. You also couldn't build that into a microphone like that, unless you were okay with the shittiest quality pitch shifter. And the microphone would not be happy, considering there's little space inside a microphone for that kind of thing.

It's normal for metal singers to put both hands on a mic in a million different ways. Some do it to cup the mic, some do it just for the sake of looks or feel.
edit: he might also personally prefer holding it like that when using distance to control volume.


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## Fred the Shred (Oct 31, 2012)

Kitten summed it up nicely. Not only the man doesn't need such artifacts to get such screams going but also the conspiracy theory here states absolutely ridiculous ways to get that happening that, simply put, don't exist or work that way. Pitch shifter built into the mic? Seriously?


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 31, 2012)

I remember reading similar conspiracy theories abou this guy:


Except they were even dumber, with people saying he had some sort of tube surgically inserted into his throat that let him reach those notes. Hilarious. Not only would that not work in any kind of way, but the most likely "cheat" is already the most famously known one: the "mime to a playback" method


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## Wings of Obsidian (Oct 31, 2012)

He puts two hands on the mic and pulls it back..... And I've seen Cradle live (from row experience), so I'm going to vouch and say his screams are real.


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok guys, if anyone was in doubt, here's an example from an 11 year old live video:
Cradle of Filth Live at Nottingham Rock City 14 04 2001 - YouTube

The link will take you directly to the part i want you to look at. He starts off doing his high pitched stuff, doing the exact move that the OP is talking about. Then he does a lower pitched thing for a bit, removing his other hand, and holding the mic "normally". Then, lo and behold, when he does the high pitched thing he puts both hands on again. He is indeed cupping the mic slightly, while pulling it back. That's what that move is.

So if he started doing this "recently", why was he doing it exactly like that 11 years ago?


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## m3l-mrq3z (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't care whether he cheats or not, his voice is still annoying.


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## SenorDingDong (Oct 31, 2012)

I never said he did for certain--hence why I asked, Kitten.

And it's not really a conspiracy theory, simply a question.


Carcass did pitch shift vocals live--they had two microphones set up, one next to the other, one of which was direct linked to the mixing board. So no, it is not impossible. Their label, Earache, were the ones who made this information available.


Direct quote from Earache, just for proof:



> Carcass in the very early days used to set up with 2 vocal mics for Jeff, I'm not sure on the exact tech spec but one was regular mic and the other one, about 6 inches away would run into the mixing desk as normal but have pitch-shift effect added at the desk.So many of the songs had this vocal treatment, I personally think it was overused in the studio on the debut, in hindsight. The gutteral effect was alien and sick so it added to the eerie vibe the band was trying to create on record. Consequently the band felt it necessary to replicate it live, during early gigs.
> 
> I think the band ditched the 2 vocal mics idea pretty quickly, it looked strange, and it wasn't always possible to set it up right,it just became an extra hassle at gigs.It was easier for Jeff to learn to do it more gutteral live, and as the band did more albums, fewer songs from the debut made it into the Carcass live set anyway.
> 
> ...




I couldn't supply the video the article names as it's no longer working.


EDIT: This video may be the right one the article talks about:




Hence why I doubt it is impossible to do what I asked about in this day and age, and asked.



But thanks for the info--I have no idea how live vocals work, so I figured I'd ask as most of you guys have more experience than I do, most likely.


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## MF_Kitten (Oct 31, 2012)

Sorry if i came across as rude, but whoever told you he has a pitch shifter built in etc. simply has no idea what he's talking about.

The video with the 2 mics and pitch shifter is a different use altogether. What they are doing there is pretty similar to what is often done in movies to make someone's voice demonic sounding. Notice the second mic is pointed towards his throat, and with the pitch shifter shifting his voice down, you get a deeper more demonic sound. If you were to pitch UP someone screaming, however, you'd get a silly chipmunk effect.


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## cwhitey2 (Oct 31, 2012)

Demiurge said:


> I'm not sure how someone could make that kind of shriek at a lower register (and need to pitch-shift it).
> 
> I saw them live a few years back and whenever Dani screamed, it would make the PA feed back because it was so loud. I'd tend to think that if his vocals were being heavily processed, some limiting would at least be employed AND hitting a vocal processor with that loud of a signal would probably make the resulting shifted sound be noticeably artificial.



Cuping the mic tends to create feedback.

I thinks its just a technique he uses to make sure the mic captures all his sounds/vocals


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## sear (Oct 31, 2012)

That style of vocal can also be seen performed by Peter from Hypocrisy (on his high-pitch screams) and Chuck from Death on the later albums. I actually have no idea how it is accomplished technique-wise, it doesn't sound like an inhaled vocal to me, but I've never been able to get my falsetto screams that high, just the standard black metal stuff doesn't seem to cut it. It's definitely not fake, though.


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## JamesM (Oct 31, 2012)

While I do think this theory is bullshit...

MF, implying that installing one into a microphone and getting good results is impossible or even difficult is ludicrous.  Number one lesson I've learned from the satellite I'm building--shit like this just needs time and thought. What if it was merely a MIDI switch, the cabling of which piggy-backs along his mic cable and enters a piece of hardware? It's completely possible to do this. 


But nah, I'd bet my balls he isn't cheating. I mean, he's been doing this for quite a while...


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## hairychris (Oct 31, 2012)

Cupping the mic has the same effect as cupping your ears and directs more sound towards the diaphragm. Certainly with gutterals it does the equivalent of ramping up the gain.

Doubtful that he "cheats," tbh.


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## Fred the Shred (Oct 31, 2012)

In the Carcass dual mic thing, they were passing a different mic through a pitch shifter - if the conspiracy theory was pertaining something like a tech switching said pitch shifter in and out (which is not true anyway), then you'd have a feasible scenario. Risking it via having a nano-device inside the mic wouldn't be a wise course of action, I dare say.


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## Ishan (Oct 31, 2012)

So what if he cheats? (even if he doesn't, seeing them live will make you sure of that)
I've never understood that concept in music, is that a competition or something?
Use whatever you see fit for the result you want.


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## SenorDingDong (Oct 31, 2012)

Kitten, I don't think you cam off rude. No one told me directly--I've seen it discussed around forums and such. My reason for being curious is I believe that, if it is true, he should just move on from the highs as they always sound terrible live anyway. 


And Ishan--I'm a pretty big CoF fan. I was a _huge_ fan in my teen years. For me, I would count it as cheating as he would not be able to achieve the vocal range and reach the pitch displayed without the use of a shifter (if one had been used, which apparently doesn't seem to be the case), and I see that as falling under the same category as the various artists in the world who cannot reach certain pitches and thus use software or other things to correct their pitch for them. It's not a competition, but I don't like the idea of pitch correction. Just my opinion. 


And again, since some guys are coming off a bit seem a bit pissed, I made this thread because I _DID NOT KNOW_ and thus wanted to ask those who had experience if it was true, or feasible.


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## Ishan (Oct 31, 2012)

It sure is doable, but not sounding as good as a real voice in most cases.
Maybe you don't know but part of what metal is today come from "cheating". In the old days when a singer couldn't reach certain high notes the other guys down tuned (or transpose in lighter cases) everything (guitar, bass, you name it). This gave, as a byproduct, a deeper darker tone to the music which evolved with time into the ultra low tuned metal madness of today 
So yea, go "cheat", invent something new, and to hell with haters...


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## abandonist (Oct 31, 2012)

I used to be able to do those highs when I was younger, but now I'm a straight baritone with a good falsetto.


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## xCaptainx (Oct 31, 2012)

heavy metal is filled with douchebags that cheat. One time I saw Rage Against the Machine, and their guitarist had the audacity to use a bloody PEDAL to pitch shift his guitar to a higher octave! the bloody NERVE!

It's even more apparent with lead guitarists! Some of them even have the nerve to use different TECHNIQUES! I know, I'm just as appalled as you are! Some people even have the nerve to mix alternative picking with economy picking! JUST PICK ONE! SAVE THE REST FOR SOMEONE ELSE, AM I RIGHT?!?!


(if you can't read my sarcasm....using a different mic techinque for different tonalities is not 'cheating' it's simply a different technique. Vocalists are musicians too....)


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## fps (Oct 31, 2012)

Triggers on the drums, now there's a cheating debate worth having.


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## Ishan (Oct 31, 2012)

Naaaa, ultra fast clicky kick drum is so much fun and too hard to do without triggers


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## Leuchty (Oct 31, 2012)

At least he doesn't lip sync...



Or does he... 
(starts rumour)


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## anomynous (Oct 31, 2012)

Are we sure he doesn't sing at half-speed, then speed it up?


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## JPhoenix19 (Oct 31, 2012)

Am I the only one who read the thread title and thought of something very kinky happening on-stage with someone other than his wife?


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## Sofos (Oct 31, 2012)

I believe it's a form of balancing himself if anything. He seems to really push hard when he does those highs, at maybe it helps him with it physically. Flexing his muscles to help push the air out harder or something. I dunno.


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## Don Vito (Oct 31, 2012)

I think it has to do with volume control.


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## Deathspell Omega (Oct 31, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> I don't care whether he cheats or not, his voice is still annoying.



 And I would even go further and say that his vocals are rather comical (in an unintentional way of course). "Technique" ?? Yeah, right.


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## SenorDingDong (Nov 1, 2012)

I can't say I agree--in the studio, he is a phenomenal vocalist. Live, he's a great vocalist with a poor ability to replicate most of his own techniques.


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## sol niger 333 (Nov 2, 2012)

Howard from killswitch is a cupper. It's for losers


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## rectifryer (Nov 3, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> Howard from killswitch is a cupper. It's for losers



Sarcasm? If so then lol. If not then  I am sad panda.


Also, I would just use midi effect that was controlled automatically if I was going to use vocal effects. I am sure CO has the resources to do so.


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## ArrowHead (Nov 3, 2012)

He's just cupping the mic. Adds distortion and midrange. Kind of a megaphone effect. Pretty common with screamers. 

Everything else in this thread is just silly talk.


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## ArrowHead (Nov 3, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> Howard from killswitch is a cupper. It's for losers



I cup the mic.


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## MF_Kitten (Nov 3, 2012)

JamesM said:


> While I do think this theory is bullshit...
> 
> MF, implying that installing one into a microphone and getting good results is impossible or even difficult is ludicrous.  Number one lesson I've learned from the satellite I'm building--shit like this just needs time and thought. What if it was merely a MIDI switch, the cabling of which piggy-backs along his mic cable and enters a piece of hardware? It's completely possible to do this.
> 
> ...



MIDI switch could be done easy. But a natural-sounding pitch shifter is hard enough as it is on full-sized units and on computers, considering realtime use. Getting that into a handheld mic would be a whole damn project, where they'd have to make a whole new custom thingy. Considering all the possible ways to do it, Dani would have to be an idiot to specifically "need" to have it in the mic. Your idea, with the MIDI button would be better.

But then again, i will say with certainty that he does not "cheat" anyway, so it doesn't matter 

Interestingly, Trent Reznor of NIN has a MIDI controller on his mic stand that changes patches and controls things like delay/reverb mix or feedback. Two buttons and a finger-roll thingy. I love that whole idea.


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## ShadowAMD (Nov 3, 2012)

This is vocal mic technique basics for a metal singer, let's say you you use an sm58 live you use proximity effect to your advantage.. also you can add slight amounts of distortion to make your voice sound a little more demonic. Just like arrowhead says, this is literally one of the first things you learn. 

I can assure you it's not a pitch shifter involved.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 3, 2012)

About the cheating? Now if Dani was a new guy and never did anything, then make a record in the studio with vocals that he could never pull off live, then i could see the argument a little more.

But with the highs that the guy hits, for the amount of years the guy has been touring, I would have no issue with him getting a little help if his voice was starting to get a little weaker.

That being said, the guy has pipes and seems to bee the real deal to me.


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## sol niger 333 (Nov 4, 2012)

rectifryer said:


> Sarcasm? If so then lol. If not then  I am sad panda.
> 
> 
> Also, I would just use midi effect that was controlled automatically if I was going to use vocal effects. I am sure CO has the resources to do so.



 yes sarcasm haha. It's just an effect really. Also if your voice is getting tired and projection is lacking you can cup the mic (provided you have a good sound guy who can deal with feedback) and get a little more cut through. It's for metal/hardcore though and usually helps with unprojected falsetto/false fold screaming or to megaphone your clean vocals. I definitely do prefer proper projected screaming though ala MJK and Devin Townsend


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## ArrowHead (Nov 4, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> You wouldn't see someone with monster pipes like Maynard or Layne Stayley cupping the mic.





Maynard is the guy that got me cupping the mic! Pretty sure Layne was a big cupper too.








As for mic technique, I wouldn't use Maynard as a great example of how to use a microphone. To quote Silvia Massy:

"I was looking for the sound of a Neumann U67 on Maynard James Keenan's voice, but because the little troll squats and shouts into the floor when he sings, it was difficult to suspend a Neumann U67 in the right position for a vocal take."

LOL. Love that quote.


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## sol niger 333 (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah I edited out Layne because he is not much of a screamer. But seriously though neither of them do. Even that photo of Layne his hands arent covering anything but the handle of the mic. Watch Maynard live, his hand NEVER covers the ball end of the mic (sexual word) The squatting and shouting at the floor technique is fucking awesome for power. But it definitely does not require cupping when you are projecting that hard. Ok I have said cupping, hard, squatting and ball end waaaay too many times.


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## sol niger 333 (Nov 4, 2012)

ArrowHead said:


> Maynard is the guy that got me cupping the mic! Pretty sure Layne was a big cupper too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where was this interview though? Looks like an interesting read. The BBC documentary of undertows recording process is an awesome watch if you havent seen it already. No vocal tracking footage besides MJK and Henry Rollins tracking the fear is naked part but a great watch nonetheless..


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## ArrowHead (Nov 4, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> But seriously though neither of them do.



I don't really want to argue with you, but I've seen them both do it live. And a few googles will get you plenty of video examples.

Again, it's no a cheat. It's not for "tired" singers. It's just an effect. A lot of people do it. Another great example is Mike Patton. He cups, uses multiple mics, all kinds of fun stuff live.

You seem to think it's a cheat of some sort, thus it irks you to think your favorite singers do it. It's just an effect, man.


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## ittoa666 (Nov 4, 2012)

Corpsegrinder frowns upon all who cup mics.


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## sol niger 333 (Nov 5, 2012)

ArrowHead said:


> I don't really want to argue with you, but I've seen them both do it live. And a few googles will get you plenty of video examples.
> 
> Again, it's no a cheat. It's not for "tired" singers. It's just an effect. A lot of people do it. Another great example is Mike Patton. He cups, uses multiple mics, all kinds of fun stuff live.
> 
> You seem to think it's a cheat of some sort, thus it irks you to think your favorite singers do it. It's just an effect, man.



Find me a video. I shall eat my words. I would never rate Patton as a power singer. An experimental one? Hell yes, he is amazing and original. 

It can be used as an effect but it is also used sometimes by metal/hardcore singers who want a distorted sound an easier way than dumping and belting it out loud as fuck. 

Not saying that's you, I've never heard you sing. Just saying it happens..not saying it's bad either..just that I prefer a projected vocal uncupped.


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## ArrowHead (Nov 5, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> Where was this interview though? Looks like an interesting read. The BBC documentary of undertows recording process is an awesome watch if you havent seen it already. No vocal tracking footage besides MJK and Henry Rollins tracking the fear is naked part but a great watch nonetheless..



Sylvia Massy Gear Stories Column | Sylvia Massy Writes About Recording Tool


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## ArrowHead (Nov 5, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> Find me a video. I shall eat my words



Nah, that's the part that doesn't want to argue. You already "debunked" the photo, I'm sure you'll do the same to any video.

Believe whatever you like. The "it's cheating" and "tired singers" part, however, I disagree. Just a vocal effect, man. Maynard, Layne, Chino, Matt Holt, Mike Patton, so many of my favorites have done some cool stuff cupping the mic. See my avatar, I also cupped the mic when I sang. 

Me cupping the mic like crazy 10+ years ago:

SoundClick artist: Black 13 - Gruff home brewed power metal meets progressive rock.

Don't be too harsh on my crappy singing, please. I wished I was maynard, I admit, and that was actually one single continuous take for the entire song. We only had a few hours to do our "demo".


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## wrongnote85 (Nov 5, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> Ok guys, if anyone was in doubt, here's an example from an 11 year old live video:
> Cradle of Filth Live at Nottingham Rock City 14 04 2001 - YouTube



wow. i don't think i quite realized the extent of teh suq that guy has going on. i'd kick my own ass for hiring a dude like that to sing in my band. 

and this is the dude that cobra demon fellow worships!?!?

wtf.




alright, don't get me wrong, the dude has talent with his vocals. it's the delivery. and the lyrics. and then the combination of those two things. 


teh suq.


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## sol niger 333 (Nov 5, 2012)

ArrowHead said:


> Nah, that's the part that doesn't want to argue. You already "debunked" the photo, I'm sure you'll do the same to any video.
> 
> Believe whatever you like. The "it's cheating" and "tired singers" part, however, I disagree. Just a vocal effect, man. Maynard, Layne, Chino, Matt Holt, Mike Patton, so many of my favorites have done some cool stuff cupping the mic. See my avatar, I also cupped the mic when I sang.
> 
> ...



I LOVE Chino and I know he cups the mic for his screams partially because his voice gets ragged and also it's an effect synonymous with the sound of many of his screamed parts. 

His live technique can be really bad and he's no powerhouse like Maynard, but his note choice, delivery and lyrics make him one of my top 5. 

Will peep your demo when I get to a pooter with speakers. I can agree to disagree


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## Deathspell Omega (Nov 5, 2012)

sol niger 333 said:


> Howard from killswitch is a cupper. It's for losers



Yeah, pretty much. And it`s totally unprofessional. With all the cupping BS the polar pattern of the mic is void, the directionality goes down the drain (UNLESS those cuppers are using a mic SPECIFICALLY designed for such a purpose like the Audix Fireball and so on). Feedback city ! Giving the sound guy a hard time.


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## makeitreign (Nov 5, 2012)

I can't recreate the types of sounds I require with my body, so I use a guitar.

:acheivementsdisabled:


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## SenorDingDong (Nov 5, 2012)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> About the cheating? Now if Dani was a new guy and never did anything, then make a record in the studio with vocals that he could never pull off live, then i could see the argument a little more.
> 
> But with the highs that the guy hits, for the amount of years the guy has been touring, I would have no issue with him getting a little help if his voice was starting to get a little weaker.
> 
> That being said, the guy has pipes and seems to bee the real deal to me.





Although he is not able to replicate many of the techniques he achieves in the studio in a live environment (hence why Cradle is only able to play about half of their catalog live), and his highs are very poor live, I do see that (depending on whose post you read) it is simply his technique of cupping the mic. As I said in the OP, it's simply something I've heard/read and wanted to know if there was any weight behind it.


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## ArrowHead (Nov 5, 2012)

Deathspell Omega said:


> Yeah, pretty much. And it`s totally unprofessional.




I'd consider a soundman that can't control feedback a bit more unprofessional. And done right, it's pretty easy to avoid feedback when cupping. In all the shows and tours done with my last band (heavy stuff), only ONCE had a problem with feedback - also happened to be the worst and most unprofessional soundman of the tour.

Typically what you describe is when a singer who eats the mic and sings very quietly cups the mic after the soundman has run it incredibly hot to compensate for the low volume.


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## RevDrucifer (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm a cupper. 

I don't encase the entire capsule in my hand, but on a 58, I definitely cover the bottom half of the capsule. I scream with my false chords and I'll choke the mic off a bit when I do. It seems to add some compression for me. 

The other night I used a 57 and I actually dug it, tonally, more than a 58. I know it's the same mic, but I had to handle it differently and I liked the results. Can't really cup one of those. 

I've also never had feedback issues with cupping, but like I said, I don't cover the entire capsule with my hand. 

As for Dani Filth, that's a total falsetto scream with a bit of grit added to it. It's not the most comfortable thing to do. Not everyone can be King Diamond. 

Back to the mic thing, cupping it CAN give a volume increase and it definitely changes the sound. (I also do the megaphone thing by holding it differently, partially cupping a part of it). I'm sure it's been used in every way conceivable.

As for utilizing it to "cheat"....well, guitarist use pedals for boosts, compression, sustain, EQ....don't really see a difference.


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## Jordan Djenital Warts (Nov 6, 2012)

RevDrucifer said:


> I'm a cupper.


 
I bet you are


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## metaljohn (Nov 6, 2012)

How can he be "cheating" and still sound so terrible live?


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## blaaargh (Nov 6, 2012)

Dani Filth can't not sound terrible. His vocals are the worst bar none


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## Sofos (Nov 8, 2012)

How did I know this was going to become a "Let's hate on Dani Filth because it's the popular thing to do thread"?


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## metaljohn (Nov 8, 2012)

Cool thing to do or not, his only tolerable vocals for me were from The Principles Of Evil Made Flesh.


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