# Building an 8-string



## slash (Jan 16, 2011)

Hi everyone!

I'm planning to build an 8-string guitar with the following specs:

- Neck-Through
- Mahogany Wings
- Mahogany/Maple Neck (5 piece laminate)
- Ebony fretboard
- Compound radius 12" to 16"
- Ibanez RGA-8 scale and fretboard dimensions

After some investigation three questions are left (for now  ):

- Would my neck be fine with the tension of 8 strings, without additional reinforcement? (in addition to the truss rod)
- Is there any fixed bridge with no strings-through-body? I really don't want a Kahler hybrid bridge, it has to be a real fixed one. I'm not sure if the Ibanez Fixed Edge III-8 bridge is strings-through-body, it looks nice and massive though.
- I see locking nuts everywhere, but I like the idea of locking tuners better. Why would I use a locking nut?

Thanks!
Daniel

EDIT: Is -> that <- an Kahler hybrid? Maybe it's not that bad after all?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2011)

slash said:


> - Would my neck be fine with the tension of 8 strings, without additional reinforcement? (in addition to the truss rod)



As long as your neck is constructed properly, with solid hardwoods you shouldn't need any further reinforcement. 



> - Is there any fixed bridge with no strings-through-body? I really don't want a Kahler hybrid bridge, it has to be a real fixed one. I'm not sure if the Ibanez Fixed Edge III-8 bridge is strings-through-body, it looks nice and massive though.



The Fixed Edge III-8 is not a string through body unit. As far as other options, ABM makes single string bridges that are not string through body. Is there a particular reason you don't want a string through body bridge? 



> - I see locking nuts everywhere, but I like the idea of locking tuners better. Why would I use a locking nut?



Nothing offers the level of tuning stability that a locking nut offers. It completely takes things such as tuner post winding and nut binding out of the equation which are the top reasons that fixed bridge guitars go out of tune.


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## Empryrean (Jan 16, 2011)

Welcome aboard sir!
edit: dammit max


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## slash (Jan 16, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> As long as your neck is constructed properly, with solid hardwoods you shouldn't need any further reinforcement.


Very well then, thanks!



MaxOfMetal said:


> The Fixed Edge III-8 is not a string through body unit. As far as other options, ABM makes single string bridges that are not string through body. Is there a particular reason you don't want a string through body bridge?


Well, I have no exact reason, I just feel like I don't want to bend the string that much (doesn't necessarily make sense). I guess I may have to reconsider using a string through body bridge... 

I know the eye-candy shouldn't really be a criterion, but I like those massive bridges like the Fixed Edge III-8. And they generally feature 3-axis adjustment. Any word on my edit, is that a Kahler bridge?



MaxOfMetal said:


> Nothing offers the level of tuning stability that a locking nut offers. It completely takes things such as tuner post winding and nut binding out of the equation which are the top reasons that fixed bridge guitars go out of tune.


I'd have used a bone nut, which I thought would be quite reliable. But if you teach me otherwise, I guess I'll go with a locking nut.

Thanks Empryrean! http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/members/empryrean.html


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2011)

slash said:


> I know the eye-candy shouldn't really be a criterion, but I like those massive bridges like the Fixed Edge III-8. And they generally feature 3-axis adjustment. Any word on my edit, is that a Kahler bridge?
> 
> 
> I'd have used a bone nut, which I thought would be quite reliable. But if you teach me otherwise, I guess I'll go with a locking nut.



That is a Kahler bridge. Also, the Fixed Edge III-8 only has two axis adjustment, like most bridges, so the height and movement parallel to the neck are adjustable, but not string spacing. 

Bone is a fairly good material for nuts. It's dense, easy to shape, cheap, and is the "classic" material used. Though, it's FAR from perfect, and in many cases it's far from ideal. It can easily cause binding and other friction related issues. If you want a traditional nut, then a graphite impregnated composite one would be a better option, such as those from GraphTech. If you do decide to go with a locking nut though, you will need to go with a bridge that has fine tuning capabilities.


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## sk3ks1s (Jan 16, 2011)

Can't remember what thread it was... but the guy had two almost identical 8's made for him. I'm pretty sure (correct me if I am wrong) that he just had standard fixed bridge plates but with tiger claw routes underneath them so he could feed the strings inder the plate without going through the body. 

If someone can find that thread and link a pic, I think that may be a solution to your problem. Those fixed Edge Ibanez things cost more than a new car, don't they?

Also, to reiterate what's already been said... I made a 5 piece mahogany/wenge neck that is paper thin and holds up just fine. I guess the wenge helps, but I'm pretty sure some nice slabs of mahogany will hold up just as well.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2011)

sk3ks1s said:


> Those fixed Edge Ibanez things cost more than a new car, don't they?



They certainly aren't cheap when purchased ale cart. They're $315 if I remeber correctly. 

Compare that to roughly $220 for a Kahler and about $400 for the ABM individuals (8 of them).


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## sk3ks1s (Jan 16, 2011)

Yeah, I priced the ABM singles for mine... I opted for the Hipshot.


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## slash (Jan 17, 2011)

So the Kahler bridge is string through body right? (can't find any meaningful pictures) Is it done like the Stratocaster tremolo, with the springs on the back? That would be truly awful. I'm not going to split the neck for a trem. 

I guess it's going to be the Ibanez unless the Kahler doesn't require me to split the neck. The ABMs are too expensive and too small.


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## Winspear (Jan 17, 2011)

Kahlers are top loading AFAIK. No springs, only top routing. They work ona cam system.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> Kahlers are top loading AFAIK. No springs, only top routing. They work ona cam system.



Kahlers (all of them) are top loading. While they don't require a rear route for spring access, they do require a route on the guitar's top for mounting.


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## slash (Jan 17, 2011)

All right, it's going to be the Kahler 7328 with locking nut then.  Got to find a good retailer that ships to Germany...


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## UnderTheSign (Jan 17, 2011)

If you're in Germany, try finding a German dealer on their website, or contact Harald Wind. He's in the eastern part of the Netherlands I believe, and he hooked me up with a Kahler for a pretty good price (ie. MUCH cheaper than Thomann)
Shoot me a message and I'll get you Haralds e-mail addy.

Concerning the Kahler rout, this is what it looks like: (pic courtesy of Neal Moser/MCS)






Like Max said, Kahlers are top loading. Here's a shitty pic of my Kahler'd guitar. You should be able to see the ball ends, hopefully that works for you.


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## slash (Jan 17, 2011)

Awesome, thanks! 

There seems to be no official German dealer for Kahler, already checked their site. Thomann has neither the trem nor the locking nut. So I'd be happy about Harald's address.  (is he a dealer or just a nice guy?)

PS: Any suggestons regarding the locking nut? If it's fine I'd get the Kahler 8-string locking nut (not the string lock)...


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## UnderTheSign (Jan 17, 2011)

Harald was a dealer when I last spoke to him (errr 1,5-2yrs ago already, haha) so I suppose he's still a dealer


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## slash (Jan 18, 2011)

Time to wait for some replies... 

Does anyone have a 3D model CAD file (DXF or FreeCAD) of an ESP LTD F-50/100/350? Or at least a blueprint? It seems nobody ever uses these on the net. How the hell do you guys design a guitar? :/

O yeah, by the way, this will probably be my choice for the body shape. Not 100% sure tho.


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## UnderTheSign (Jan 18, 2011)

If I were you I'd go with a normal nut, and a Kahler behind the nut lock. Just a personal preference though 

Most people design their guitars on paper!


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## slash (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm not really sure about that. In fact the Kahler 7328 seems to be shipped with the string lock anyways. But I feel like this thing could bend the strings in a abnormal way, as it's probably supposed to sit right behind the nut. So if you decide to use a wider nut (wider than the string lock locks  ) it would kill the strings. If you use the strings-straight-through nut size/spacing, you could as well use the locking nut. 

Well, seems like most people have tons of huge paper sheets. 
Therefore I have a huge computer screen... I hope someone at least has a SVG of the F-50. I can't figure out how to use a picture from a guitar in FreeCAD to draw the model myself.


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## slash (Jan 18, 2011)

Well, I created the SVG myself (ESP LTD F-350, which should have the very same body as the F-50). The outer shape is very accurate and smooth, the inner lines are not very smooth (fairly accurate tho). Those are supposed to be just for reference while shaping the top. No measures added, I need to find them out first. 

Anyways, feel free to download, hope someone may find this useful.

I hope I'll find a good CAD program for Linux as FreeCAD sucks at it's stage of development. Or I don't understand it, dunno.


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## slash (Jan 21, 2011)

Hey everybody,

Meanwhile I figured most of the stuff regarding the configuration, but two questions are still left to be answered. I had some trouble deciding whether to leave the wood finish or paint it all black. Having a wooden finish would mean a lot more work and really expensive wood, so I chose the black finish for this Guitar (I thought about building another one if this build succeeds). 

That means I can choose the wood by it's specification rather than it's "eye candy". I don't want the guitar to be too heavy and mahogany (Swietenia) seems pretty heavy. Is there any better configuration than Mahogany wings / Mahogany-Maple Neck? I'm afraid the neck could be too heavy if I just replace the wings' wood. On the other hand, the neck could be too weak if I choose lighter woods overall.

Errrr, I forgot the second question.  

Thanks! 
Daniel


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## b7string (Jan 21, 2011)

slash said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Meanwhile I figured most of the stuff regarding the configuration, but two questions are still left to be answered. I had some trouble deciding whether to leave the wood finish or paint it all black. Having a wooden finish would mean a lot more work and really expensive wood, so I chose the black finish for this Guitar (I thought about building another one if this build succeeds).
> 
> ...



I'm biased but I like all woods natural even the ones considered "ugly". Something like a tung-oil finish would be easy to do yourself (no spraying for the clear) and its not too expensive. If you did build the wings with mahogany it could look something like...

This! Agile Intrepid Pro Dual 830 MN NA at RondoMusic.com

Yeah it could be heavy, but I don't think you'd really gain much by switching woods on the wings, maybe a slight difference but you'd only be replacing like 35% of the total wood on the guitar, so unless there's a huge difference in weight between your body woods, I don't think it would really warrant it. (IMO)


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## slash (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks, so I guess I'll stick with Mahogany/Maple. You're right, if I only loose weight on the wings, it wouldn't really matter. It's more important to have a good balance (neck/body).

It's not about Mahogany being considered ugly, it's just my personal antipathy for the color red and all its shades. I'd probably be fine with any other wood. Also, I really wanted it to be black all over right from the beginning, but changed my mind when I saw some really sweet pictures of guitars with natural finish (better: I couldn't decide). When I checked some of the wood suppliers, I realized the really awesome woods are the most expensive ones (like 300+ EUR per body). So I thought the black finish wouldn't be all that bad.  

The currently estimated costs are at 1105 EUR. I can't afford more, I'm a student.


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## slash (Jan 23, 2011)

While drawing the CAD file, I realized there is something strange going on on that F-50 picture I used. I understand that the scale of 25.5" (from now on 647.7 mm, I'm not used to inches) should be divided by 2 on the 12th fret (323.85 mm). Scaling my model that way, the scale seems to be too large at the bridge (650 mm - 653 mm). I also understand there has to be some compensation as the string bends while being pushed on the fretboard, but it's like 2.4 mm to 5 mm too long. Please have a look at the picture below for better understanding. Is that an error in the scale or in my drawing? Or is this normal?




I was also wondering on which point of the bridge the measuring of the scale should take place. As the saddles are movable, I would have to decide whether to put them all towards the back or the front (neck) and do the routing for the bridge depending on that, so that I can do the fine adjustment of the saddles later on. Any hint on that?

Thanks!
Daniel


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## flo (Jan 23, 2011)

Hi Daniel,

Cool to have another German here who's into building guitars 

On your question above I have to say that pictures are usually never linear, because of the camera lense etc. So you shouldn't try to copy the fretboard dimensions from a photo. It's correct however that the 12th fret should be at half of the scale length. 
Then you're right about compensation, the compensation is least at the high e string, so this should really be very close to 648 mm. This is only important to place the bridge correctly, all the other strings are going to be longer.

Are you planning to tune down to F#? In that case I'd recommend to go for a long scale, like 27'' (686mm) (talking from experience here with too short scales)

I really think that going for a natural finish is the way to go, since it's much cheaper and easier to do. If it needs to be dark, I've learned the other day that burning mahogany with a hot air gun is both fun and looks cool as hell, check this out:
lhttp://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...-kelly-custombuild-phase-1-making-plan-4.html

Best of luck with your project!


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## slash (Jan 23, 2011)

flo said:


> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Cool to have another German here who's into building guitars


Hi Flo, indeed! 


flo said:


> On your question above I have to say that pictures are usually never linear, because of the camera lense etc. So you shouldn't try to copy the fretboard dimensions from a photo. It's correct however that the 12th fret should be at half of the scale length.


Thanks, makes sense! 


flo said:


> Then you're right about compensation, the compensation is least at the high e string, so this should really be very close to 648 mm. This is only important to place the bridge correctly, all the other strings are going to be longer.


Again, thanks!


flo said:


> Are you planning to tune down to F#? In that case I'd recommend to go for a long scale, like 27'' (686mm) (talking from experience here with too short scales)


That's the plan (27"), never intended to use the 25.5" scale. I just used the given scale on the picture to "scale" the body to its original size. I don't want to rely on the EMGs as a reference length because they are too small. If anyone already has the original dimensions of the F-50 body - even better. 

The question about the fret scale arose due to that tolerance in the picture, that's why I asked.


flo said:


> I really think that going for a natural finish is the way to go, since it's much cheaper and easier to do. If it needs to be dark, I've learned the other day that burning mahogany with a hot air gun is both fun and looks cool as hell, check this out:
> lhttp://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...-kelly-custombuild-phase-1-making-plan-4.html


Looks really awesome!  If I'd do a natural finish, I'd like to have a layered body as well. Maybe layered with burnt top. Or like the mockup in this thread: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...ns/126842-my-9-string-design-epic-mockup.html
But in fact, I don't know where to get the wood for something like this (the shops I found (Cropp eg.) offer big body blanks only, no half-thick stuff etc. ) I don't have a band saw available, so I can't split the blanks myself. Lots of problems. 


flo said:


> Best of luck with your project!


Thank you!


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## JaeSwift (Jan 23, 2011)

Just to chime in on the RGA 8 bridge; it's set to a 16'' radius so I'm not sure how well that would work with a compound radius fretboard.


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## slash (Jan 23, 2011)

I decided to use the Kahler 7328 hybrid trem, but why wouldn't the RGA8 bridge work? The radius is going to be 12" to 16". Should be okay then, right? 

But you're still right: There is literally no information about the kahler 8-string locking nut. I guess I'll have to file the 12" radius myself? How is it done on Floyd Rose locking nuts?


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## b7string (Jan 23, 2011)

slash said:


> I decided to use the Kahler 7328 hybrid trem, but why wouldn't the RGA8 bridge work? The radius is going to be 12" to 16". Should be okay then, right?
> 
> But you're still right: There is literally no information about the kahler 8-string locking nut. I guess I'll have to file the 12" radius myself? How is it done on Floyd Rose locking nuts?



I could be wrong here, but I wouldn't worry too much about the nut radius, unless its way off of your intended radius. You could file down the string slots though to get the appropriate radius though, if you used one of stew macs radius gages as a template, then carefully filed them down with some metal files it should work. (Disclaimer, never tried this myself). But like I said I don't think it makes a huge difference, and heres why:

Most of the time you shim your nut once its on if the action is too low/too high on one side or the other, and some people like higher action on the bass side and lower action on the treble side etc. Unless your nut has like a 20" radius and your trying to use it on a very small radius fretboard or something, I don't see it being too big of an issue. (However I could be wrong, and if someone else has better info I'd love to be corrected  )

As for the 16" bridge radius being compatible with the compound fretboard radius, I'm not sure how that would work out. My warmoth 7 has a 10"-16" compound fretboard, and I have no idea what the radius on the bridge is (trs 7 pro), but I have had no issues with it.


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## slash (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks, so I'll figure out once it arrives. 

But, if anyone with the Kahler 7328 trem and the 8-string locking nut is around, I'd love to get some dimensions and string spacing for my calculations for the fretboard and neck... Found the routing template for the trem, but the saddles are not included in the drawing.


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## flo (Jan 24, 2011)

another woodshop you could check out is

unsere Hölzer | holz-faszination.de

Proper eye-candy, but expensive 

I don't have got a bandsaw and all this pro stuff myself, but I know a carpenter I go to when I need to cut wood for say the neck laminations.


One more tip for you, slightly immoral:

Thomann offer 30 days money-back, in case you should need a real F-50 for your plan


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## slash (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks Flo, I knew that one, but didn't mention it due to their excessive pricing. 

Never mind, I got it, natural finish. I have to admit it's quite idiotic to paint it black if I have literally free choice on the wood and lamination. 

I'll check different types of wood for the top and back of the body. I'm not going to use mahogany tho, I really dislike its color. Even if burned it somewhat has a red touch... (Doesn't mean yours doesn't look awesome!) Cocolobolo or what it's called looks nice!

It's going to be a slow build anyways, as Thomann won't get the EMGs before end of March, the bridge and nut won't be shipped before end of February and so on. Not to mention the lack of all the measurement I need to order a fretboard and neck. (I decided to order an already laminated neck blank as I have no chance to laminate it myself. It's my choice of wood and measurements tho. No carpenter over here. )

Yeah, I like Thomann's service too much to abuse it. I really appreciate the work these guys do. I once ordered a POD and had a backup plan to return it and get a small amp instead, if I dislike it. I felt guilty when I did it...  They'll have to sell it as b-stock if you return it -> less profit.

EDIT: b7string I found it: http://www.wammiworld.com/Specifications.php
The locking nut (5338) has a radius of 15" which is quite different from my 12" at the nut, is it?
*EDIT2: The bridge does not feature a 16" radius (15" max). What now?*


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## flo (Jan 25, 2011)

slash said:


> *EDIT2: The bridge does not feature a 16" radius (15" max). What now?*



Really, personally I'd skip the loking nut finetuning bridge stuff and go for a normal nut and bridge, and be happy about the 200 &#8364; it saves...


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## slash (Jan 25, 2011)

Nah, it's all about it! On the first page I was convinced to use the locking nut rather than the locking tuners. I don't want to switch again... Mike offered me a nice price, I would not save much after all...


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## UnderTheSign (Jan 25, 2011)

You could always just contact Kahler for a solution.


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## slash (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks! I just did that, could have thought of it myself... 

Guys, I don't know where to get any wood besides the default Maple, Swamp Ash and Mahogany or other very bright woods. The sites I know (edelholzverkauf.de, holz-faszination.de, edelholzshop.de) don't have Cocobolo, Bocote, Imbuia or Ziricote (they do have some, but only knife blanks and similar). Those are the woods I'd prefer for the top of the body... Anyone knows a German or at least European site where I could get one of these? (Size roughly 510mm X 135mm X 17-20mm or the same in two book-matched pieces) 

BTW, already ordered the trem and nut, lets see if the radii work out or what Kahler suggests.


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## slash (Jan 26, 2011)

Kahler doesn't know what to do, they just make the parts ("I am sorry but we are not luthiers [...]"). Well, as I ordered the trem and nut, we'll see what to do. Either I'll have to file the nut or I'll have to use a fixed radius on the fretboard.

In the meantime I requested wood from a dozen suppliers, and got some positive feedback. It appears most of them don't have such things on stock, but will have them in one or two months. (The reason why I didn't find anything) I decided to use Ziricote for the body top (and headstock laminate). But I will be 100% sure once I finished my mock-ups. 

So this is the current progress:
- ordered Kahler bridge and locknut (est. delivery ~2 months)
- requested woods (est. availability ~2 months)
- requested 2x EMG 808 (est. availability ~2 months)
- neck incl. headstock (ready for order)
- ceylon ebony fretboard (ready for order)
- Schaller mechanics (requested, answer pending)
- fret wire (no supplier found yet (stainless steel))
- truss rod (decision yet to be made)
- natural finish
- 3pcs laminate body (mock-up to be done)
- small parts (side dots, secur. locks etc.) (decision yet to be made)


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## UnderTheSign (Jan 26, 2011)

In that case, I'd suggest contacting a luthier who has experience working with Kahlers to see if there's a solution.


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## slash (Jan 26, 2011)

I'd love to do that if I only knew a luthier. :/

I guess the luthiers here in the forum are not happy about PM requests. Because everyone does it and it's annoying... So I'll have to wait until someone has an idea and posts it here...

EDIT: If forgot about the man I ordered the trem and nut from. Mike thinks it should work with the 12" to 16" compound radius, and if not, I can file the nut some. Great news!


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## UnderTheSign (Jan 27, 2011)

You could try Neal Moser. He just moved his shop from LA to Arizona so he's pretty busy, but the man has been working with Kahlers since the 80's I believe. Helpful man, too


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## Rusti (Jan 27, 2011)

i also did the same F shape for a 6 string 
if you need the 2d drawing i could try to find it, its in mm scale for sure


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## Rusti (Jan 27, 2011)

slash said:


> I hope I'll find a good CAD program for Linux as FreeCAD sucks at it's stage of development. Or I don't understand it, dunno.



i didnt read all the thread so excuse me if you already wrote or knew it; AutoCad has been recently released for Mac also.


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## slash (Jan 28, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> You could try Neal Moser. He just moved his shop from LA to Arizona so he's pretty busy, but the man has been working with Kahlers since the 80's I believe. Helpful man, too



Thanks, I wrote him, let's see...



Rusti said:


> i also did the same F shape for a 6 string
> if you need the 2d drawing i could try to find it, its in mm scale for sure



I guess yours may be more acurate. So, sure, if you don't mind?



Rusti said:


> i didnt read all the thread so excuse me if you already wrote or knew it; AutoCad has been recently released for Mac also.



I'm found QCad, quite awesome AutoCad clone, works great and it's free.


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## Rusti (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah when im at home ill search for it and post.
Mine is a 6 string with emg and tom bridge, so you will need to edit it to what you are going to put on your guitar.
Also i drawed it and scaled to what i thought it was useful and good looking, so its not the official esp F shape 
this is how it came out.







Do you use cad drawing for the plan only or you are goin to work it on a cnc also?
What kind of finish are you goin to use?
edit: excuse me for my bad english


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## slash (Jan 28, 2011)

Looks awesome!  

But never mind the drawing then, I did one from a picture and scaled it to the original dimensions. I thought you might have one that is even more acurate... Thanks anyways!

EDIT: Sorry Rusti, I didn't see the lower part of your post in the first place. I'm going to use the CAD drawing for the plan only, I have no CNC available. 
The finish is going to be natural, with several types of wood (laminated).


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## slash (Jan 30, 2011)

Still doing all the planning until the parts arrive. Would you suggest to put the neck further towards north? (picture below) As it's going to be a neck-through, I'm not sure where to do the connection between the neck and the wings. For now I used the 22nd fret as the "connection point".




Please note: the headstock is just a placeholder. Going to use a headstock similar to the RGA-8 one.

EDIT: Another question came to mind. A zero-fret would eliminate my radius problem, right? Is it a general rule to use a higher fret wire for the zero fret than for the others? Or is i a matter of choice? Thank you!
EDIT2: Thanks Empryrean! (Discussion in his profile about the zero fret -> question answered)


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## skyeDCCCXX (Jan 30, 2011)

Rusti said:


> Yeah when im at home ill search for it and post.
> Mine is a 6 string with emg and tom bridge, so you will need to edit it to what you are going to put on your guitar.
> Also i drawed it and scaled to what i thought it was useful and good looking, so its not the official esp F shape
> this is how it came out.
> ...



Looks like Batman's guitar!


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## BlackMastodon (Jan 30, 2011)

skyeDCCCXX said:


> Looks like Batman's guitar!


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## Rusti (Jan 30, 2011)

skyeDCCCXX said:


> Looks like Batman's guitar!


lol you're the second one who tells it to me


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## slash (Feb 1, 2011)

So guys, as I'm still waiting for the parts to arrive, I did some further planning on the wood. How thick would you suggest the body to be? I could make it really thin and have a thinner top (I want the top and back to have the same thickness) and therefore some really awesome figured wood (cheaper price). But then I'm afraid the guitar would be too heavy on the neck side. On the other hand, if I make it thicker, the woods of my choice are more likely to be either super expensive or simply not available.

So, what thickness of the body would make my guitar well-balanced?


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