# Why the hell did I ever buy a tube amp?



## powerbert

- Peavey 6505+: $900
- Boss Overdrive: $50
- Decimator 2: $130
- Reverb pedal: $75
- Pedaltrain: $100
- Power Supply: $30
- Loadbox, Cab Sim and Headphone amp: $400
- Cables: $30
- Tap dancing instead of playing songs properly: priceless

Sorry, just venting. So glad I still have access to technology that's 50 years old.


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## TedEH

And the problem is.....? A comparable digital rig would cost just as much wouldn't it?


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## powerbert

TedEH said:


> And the problem is.....? A comparable digital rig would cost just as much wouldn't it?


Well, yeah...but minus the tap dancing, frustration and setup times, it would have been worth it from day 1.


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## CapnForsaggio

Power supply should say $170, otherwise spot on


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## bostjan

Tube amps. I know, right?






So...

Does everybody here use a gate, OD and reverb pedal?

My tube amps have always been pretty quiet. When I get one that has less gain than I need, I have to use the OD pedal, then I get too much noise, so then I need a gate... But if you start with a high gain tube amp, you can use a boost that increases saturation in a much nicer way and is a lot less noisy, in my experience, then you can get away without the gate in live situations. And, I've never used a reverb pedal, but I do love a little BOSS DD-7 delay.

A related vent - why is it that the Q-Tron/µ-tron/auto-wah/touch-wah thingie on my Roland Cube bass amp sounds so much better than any pedals I can dial in, and yet there isn't even a dial on the amp to mess with, it just always sounds nice and quacky. I want a pedal that I can use on a big amp that does the same thing, or heck, even a switch on my bass... There's got to be some secret - I bet the thing is totally digital.


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## TedEH

Ah, I thought the complaint was a price thing. So what you're saying is that you don't like individual pedals then...? Digital rigs can just as easily lend themselves to tap-dancing if you've setup yourself up for it.

IMO the fastest route to a frustration-free rig is just to minimize the number of separate sounds you need. For me, I can get away with basically one sound per band. If there are pedals involved they're always on. If I need a clean sound, which is rare, I roll the guitar volume down. In one band I have a bunch of pedals that sit on top of my amp head and I just use one switch to turn the fx loop on and off.

It's just as easy to get yourself stuck in patch-hell if every song and every verse needs a different amp model, and different eq settings, sometimes a boost to patch in, etc. etc. I personally would prefer not to deal with it. Even if I had a digital rig, I'd probably just find my one sound in it and stick with that 99.9% of the time.  And I never both with a lead boost- I hate the idea of juggling two different volume levels mid song.


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## powerbert

TedEH said:


> It's just as easy to get yourself stuck in patch-hell if every song and every verse needs a different amp model, and different eq settings, sometimes a boost to patch in, etc. etc. I personally would prefer not to deal with it.



Yeah that is a good point and something I might be discounting. My setup is far from complex: I got a clean channel, a louder channel, and the loudest channel. I gotta wonder if anyone who recommends this rather orthodox setup ever actually played in a band. Oh well I shoulda seen it coming.



bostjan said:


> But if you start with a high gain tube amp, you can use a boost that increases saturation in a much nicer way and is a lot less noisy, in my experience, then you can get away without the gate in live situations.



Yeah I never heard about this. The thing is pretty noisy though.


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## bhakan

I feel like the benefits of digital have been getting really exaggerated as of late. How is your tube rig slowing down your set up times? You have a head, a cab and a pedalboard vs. a rack, a powered monitor, and a foot controller. As far as tap dancing, with only three effects there are a whole lot of ways you could creatively cut down on that. For price, you could have paid a lot less for that 6505, you could have easily made a pedalboard for like $10, you could have made a load box for about $30, and you can get plenty of amazing impulse packs for like $10. 

And remember in 10 years, your 6505 will still be the gold standard, and if something happens to it, any tech can fix it easily. The same can't be said for modellers. Not saying there aren't plenty of advantages to modellers, but I feel like people blow tube amps problems out of proportion sometimes.


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## powerbert

bhakan said:


> How is your tube rig slowing down your set up times? You have a head, a cab and a pedalboard vs. a rack, a powered monitor, and a foot controller.



This makes me feel a bit better. (warning: more complaining) But it would be nice to not have to carry and screw around with cabling. It's a bit more stressful than it needs to be, finding the right cables in the dark and everything 5 minutes before soundcheck, or then losing cables afterwards because it's all a mess. I'm trying to play music not run an IT shop. I'm going in-ear soon too, so it's just gonna be more cables.

As far as the tap dancing goes. The most annoying bit is the overdrive pedal, the fact that it has to be on with the yellow and red channel, but off with the clean channel. The 6505+ takes a 7 pinner for the channel switch, so it's not like I can easily sync it up some how. Practically everyone uses an overdrive in front of the amp. Why hasn't anyone solved this problem? The reverb pedal, sure I could live without that, but that should be on with the clean channel as well.

As far doing enough research to DIY this and that, it would still take time. Like, going to IKEA for hours to buy parts for a pedalboard? It's kind of a wash. Building my own load box and using impulse packs? I have to say I'm surprised that is even something I should have thought about doing.


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## questin

Get really popular and hire roadies to set up your rig then... I know you gave me a warning, but it's really not that bad.


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## powerbert

questin said:


> Get really popular and hire roadies to set up your rig then... I know you gave me a warning, but it's really not that bad.


Says the guy with the Axe FX  I'm welcome to practical suggestions.


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## budda

It sounds to me like you don't know how to organize your rig, not that your rig is bad.

Colour-code your cables. Use fluorescent tape. Generally know what you're doing.

I bet if you had a fractal or kemper unit, your post would be "Why did I ever go digital? I spend all my time tweaking patches instead of playing guitar."

It's not the gear's fault you aren't streamlined


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## powerbert

budda said:


> It sounds to me like you don't know how to organize your rig



Hmm, that's a bit harsh, but I think there are things that I could do better. 

Let's start with the loadbox. It's gonna be a radial headload prodigy, probably this damn thing should never be unplugged during a show. Where should it be housed so it doesn't get knocked out of the chain? 
What's the cabling job that needs to be done for in ears so its going from headload -> hip pack in a way where I can still kind of walk around? Would ziptying a 3.5" or XLR to the guitar cable work?
Tell me how you would streamline the OD pedal/channel switch/reverb in the loop issue that I have, since you seem to find that one obvious.


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## CapnForsaggio

budda said:


> Generally know what you're doing.



I love this bit. Totally going to include that line in some instructions


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## eaeolian

- Peavey 6505+: $900
- Boss Overdrive: $50
- Decimator 2: $130
- Reverb pedal: $75
- Pedaltrain: $100
- Power Supply: $30
- Loadbox, Cab Sim and Headphone amp: $400
- Cables: $30

Spend a little more, buy this:

https://www.boss.info/us/products/ms-3/

Then no more tap dancing. Step on one switch, it all changes.


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## bhakan

powerbert said:


> Hmm, that's a bit harsh, but I think there are things that I could do better.
> 
> Let's start with the loadbox. It's gonna be a radial headload prodigy, probably this damn thing should never be unplugged during a show. Where should it be housed so it doesn't get knocked out of the chain?
> What's the cabling job that needs to be done for in ears so its going from headload -> hip pack in a way where I can still kind of walk around? Would ziptying a 3.5" or XLR to the guitar cable work?
> Tell me how you would streamline the OD pedal/channel switch/reverb in the loop issue that I have, since you seem to find that one obvious.


I didn't realize you were using the load box live with in ears and such. In that case, in my opinion there is no way to make that complicated of a rig easy to set up short of putting it all in a rack. 

I don't expect to sway you, but if you want my two cents: ditch the whole load box and in ear thing live unless/until you're a big name act. Whenever I've seen a smaller band using that kind of set up it has always taken them ages to get set up, and then ages longer for the sound guy to figure out what to do with all their shit (because lets be honest, the sound guys at the venues smaller bands tend to play either don't care enough or aren't properly equipped for that kind of stuff). By the time they played the crowd was already annoyed because of the set up times. 

For some actually helpful advice, maybe consider something like a Boss LS-2, with your noise gate and OD in one loop, and the verb in the other. That way to switch from boosted, gated dirty channel to verbed clean channel it's two presses. A little bit of tap dancing but a manageable amount IMO. 

I think more than anything, I can't understate the importance of practicing stuff. Even setting up your rig takes "practice" to get real fast. At this point I can set up my amp cab and pedalboard super quickly just because I've done it a billion times.


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## Gmork

CapnForsaggio said:


> Power supply should say $170, otherwise spot on


Or $450 lol go mondo or go home lol


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## powerbert

bhakan said:


> I don't expect to sway you, but if you want my two cents: ditch the whole load box and in ear thing live unless/until you're a big name act.



Thanks, this is very helpful. I definitely didn't expect people to think in-ears being a complicated setup. People seem matter of fact about it but I definitely hear you on this one. My hope was with the loadbox/headphone amp (I'd still run a cab), I could get a direct feed of my guitar into an in ear. That's it really, I don't care about a full band mix. I don't really need to hear anyone else in the band, just the drummer and myself. I'm already having to set up a wireless mic and in-ear for the vocalist, so yeah I'd definitely rather not bother the sound guy with another feed.

(P.S. I'm ready for you to tell me why this won't work.)

I also get the whole, why put so much effort into a small act, but I feel I should have the integrity to do at least the bare minimum to put on an acceptable show. I mean some people actually show up to watch this stuff.


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## budda

Yeah - in ears are excessive unless you play serious stages for most of your gigs.

You're saying you need all this stuff to put on an acceptable show, but there's so many bands out there who aren't using in ears, direct feeds, load boxes etc. who are putting on great shows and touring hard, building their brand.

Again, it's not the gear's fault. What's the bare minimum you need to get your sound? Once you have that down, practice setting up and tearing down to make it as fast and painless as possible.

Have you talked to your bandmates about what they think you can improve on? A band is a family - everyone should be helping out everyone else. If I see that our other guitarist has to take care of something, I'm going to set up his pedalboard and make sure his rig is plugged in once mine is taken care of. 

If you want to put on an acceptable show, write the best music you possibly can and be professional about arriving on time, set-up time and tear-down time, and playing within your set schedule. Talk to the other bands, actually watch them and let them know what you enjoyed. Thank the sound person, staff and venue. That's how you put on an acceptable show.


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## GunpointMetal

I definite like having the ability to go from the sound of an ENGL model with two gates, a boost, and a perfectly mic'ed Mesa OS 4x12 to a FDR with a comp, chorus, two delays, particle verb and a perfectly mic'ed Jensen 2x12 just by hitting one button. Even running IEM and two on-stage monitors its still only four cables (minus the FOH XLR): Guitar In, L/R Out to Monitor, Headphone Out to IEM Mixer.


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## CapnForsaggio

^ and I prefer the "continuity of sound" one gets from a tube amp while trapesing around with different efx and gain stages....

Let me ask you this, fans of the "digital revolution in amp modeling": 

Do you still have to [email protected] around with EVERY INDIVIDUAL patch level, EVERY TIME you change overall volume or connect to a new system?
This is the activity that lets me know I am in digital hell. I have never used a modeling product that didn't suffer from this.


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## Element0s

powerbert said:


> I also get the whole, why put so much effort into a small act, but I feel I should have the integrity to do at least the bare minimum to put on an acceptable show. I mean some people actually show up to watch this stuff.


 I think it's less of a "why put so much effort" thing and more of a "adjust your focus" thing, ya'know? If you just need to hear yourself and your drummer then I personally recommend investing in high-end hearing protection before in-ears. You can get custom-made musician's earplugs from any hearing centre. I got mine from Costco. Best investment ever--I never needed a monitor adjustment after getting them. Hell, even the $30 Vic Firth plug you can get from the drum department of your local music store are pretty swell.

budda is largely on-point with his last comment. Band members can help each other out. Everyone in my band knows how to set up our drummers' kit to at least 75% of his tastes. Very helpful when you've been driving for 10 hours with nothing to eat but yesterday's Taco Bell and Tommy's gotta torch the men's room right before our set.

For myself, I use a digital setup (Helix floor with a small rack with my wireless and power/amp stuff) with all my cables merged into a single snake and my wireless pedal velcro'd to the inside of an empty space in my rack. I bought a deeper rack unit so that I can stow all my cables and extra bits in the back of it. All I have to do is plug the rack into my cab, run the snake out the front of it into the Helix and boom, good to go. My singer often packs up my gear so I can run and hock merch immediately after our set.

So the digital works for me, but only because I worked on streamlining the process and my band works as a team. With all that said, I do worry about some drunk asshole frying it with a spilled drink or something.

@CapnForsaggio: I haven't had too much trouble with this, but that's because I'm basically using my digital setup as a direct replacement for a tube head. I run it through a cab and everything. I just like the control and options the Helix gives me, it just makes workflow super smooth and I _love_ the sound.


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## GunpointMetal

CapnForsaggio said:


> ^ and I prefer the "continuity of sound" one gets from a tube amp while trapesing around with different efx and gain stages....
> 
> Let me ask you this, fans of the "digital revolution in amp modeling":
> 
> Do you still have to [email protected] around with EVERY INDIVIDUAL patch level, EVERY TIME you change overall volume or connect to a new system?
> This is the activity that lets me know I am in digital hell. I have never used a modeling product that didn't suffer from this.


I haven't had that issue since the Boss GT-6, and I was still using a tube power amp and regular cab. Now I level my performance patches in rehearsal and I never touch 'em. I think I set-up my main patches that I use live in about 10 minutes. A few months after that I decided to use different IR's, so I spent another 5 minutes re-leveling. For recording, I don't worry about it too much as along as I'm not clipping ITB.


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## thoughtpyotr

I still want to get a tube amp one day. I just wanna see what all the hype is about.

The tube amps I've tried at GC or friends house are amazballz


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## powerbert

The Costco hearing protection suggestion seems promising, so thanks for that.

Suppose I don't go in ear, what can you do to make sure you're audible through a wedge? I mean, yeah you can always play together as a full band and see how it sounds, but that hasn't worked so far. If we throw in some blast beats and heavier double bass part later, it's anyone's guess. Who even knows if it's the same mix I'm getting after other bands have gone.

Yeah and I think precision is important. It's super disappointing where bands have crisp clear albums but a mushy live set. And even with big metal bands, I think it's plenty frequent you find this. And people are in such denial about it. I don't want to worsen the already over-engineered reputation that my genre of music already has. If this is the nature of your music then you should make more of an effort, not less, to play clearly and precisely. That's sort of my take. I'm not blaming the gear either, I'm clearly trying to take matters into my own hands. So, you know, I invite some of you to back off with the condescension a wee bit.


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## bhakan

powerbert said:


> I also get the whole, why put so much effort into a small act, but I feel I should have the integrity to do at least the bare minimum to put on an acceptable show. I mean some people actually show up to watch this stuff.


First off, this isn't what I meant to convey. I take my small bands very seriously even when nobody else does . What you need to keep in mind, is everything you do as a small band has to make other people take you seriously, because by default they don't. Do you want people's first impression of you to be a delay in the show because you brought way more gear than you need and need to figure out how to set it up? Even if it only adds 5 minutes to your setup time, there will be at least a couple people who go out for a smoke and never come back during that time frame. 

I pretty much agree with everything Budda's been saying. As a small band, your focus should be being able to put on a kickass show regardless of the situation. Chances are you're going to play shows with a shitty underpowered PA system, with a clueless soundguy, with shitty borrowed gear as a backline, etc. The audience doesn't know or care about how these affect you. What matters is that your set is as tight and enjoyable as possible every time. Now some of these things can be helped by something like in ears, but if you're gonna use them, you gotta know that system inside and out be able to get it up and running in a very short time. The more complicated your rig, the more adept you have to be at fixing it on the spot during a gig. In my experience the much easier solution is to get tight enough with your band that you sound good regardless of the situation. Of course, my opinion isn't the only one so do what feels right to you.


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## GunpointMetal

bhakan said:


> The more complicated your rig, the more adept you have to be at fixing it on the spot during a gig. In my experience the much easier solution is to get tight enough with your band that you sound good regardless of the situation. Of course, my opinion isn't the only one so do what feels right to you.


This is 'uge!
My bands are now running multiple DI's (kick, LFE, backtracks), direct guitar, and IEM. We had the rig set-up for months before we ever used it live though, because I wanted to be able to get on and off just as quickly as we were before and not have to be one of those bands that takes 40 minutes to set up (which I see ALL THE TIME and is super annoying). Now everything is racked and ready to go, I make any FOH person aware of what and where things are connected, and for the most part we set-up as quick, if not quicker now than we did before.


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## buriedoutback

Don't under-estimate how crappy/non-existent the PA/Sound guy at shows will be. I went from a 5150 > Mesa 412 to a modeller > PA only to find out that 
*Sound guys don't know what a modeller is, or how to work with one 
*The PA is too small/crappy and only handles vocals 
*No monitors 
*other guitar player still uses cranked 412 and monitors/powered speakers couldn't compete
*Insert Shitty Experience here. 
This are just my experiences (Ontario, Canada), and I thought I'd done enough research beforehand to avoid problems, but I quickly realized that tube amps and 412 cabs are still popular for a variety of reasons, this being one of them.
Me : guitar > tuner > OD > gate > 5150 > Mesa 412 with 7 band EQ in loop. Done. 
Ya its heavy and takes up a lot of space, but man it sounds good, feels good and gets the job done.
Even if I were to go back to using a modeller, it would be as a pre-amp > pwr-amp and 412 - no question.
PS. i run a wired single in-ear for click and a surefire ear plug in the other ear.


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## powerbert

buriedoutback said:


> *The PA is too small/crappy and only handles vocals


Yeah that is useful to know actually. I'm convinced it's probably better to just lug a cab, pretty much sound guys are always micing the thing too. What's your take on what that's accomplishing?


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## Hollowway

bhakan said:


> And remember in 10 years, your 6505 will still be the gold standard, and if something happens to it, any tech can fix it easily. The same can't be said for modellers. Not saying there aren't plenty of advantages to modellers, but I feel like people blow tube amps problems out of proportion sometimes.



100% agree. I've got a couple of modelers that I either don't use, because technology has moved on, or because they broke and cannot easily be fixed. But I have tube amps that just keep on being tube amps. Because I am not recording an album, going on tour, etc., I'm not going to be buying another modeler. It just doesn't make sense to sink money into something that is realistically not going to be used 20 years from now. I keep an old POD 2.0 bean around, because it's my late nite "practice" amp. But my main amp is not digital.

Plus, I MUCH prefer pedals with loads of knobs. It's like synthesizers with knobs - it's just easier to dial in a sound. For effects, I don't mind if they're SS or digital, but I definitely want knobs.


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## buriedoutback

powerbert said:


> Yeah that is useful to know actually. I'm convinced it's probably better to just lug a cab, pretty much sound guys are always micing the thing too. What's your take on what that's accomplishing?



If the PA can handle it and the sound guy knows what he's doing, then that's awesome. I think you need both of those things to make it sound good/right though. Honestly, if I can have a triggered kick, vocals and backing tracks in the PA then I'm happy. Yes we play mostly small dive bars.


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## bhakan

Hollowway said:


> Plus, I MUCH prefer pedals with loads of knobs. It's like synthesizers with knobs - it's just easier to dial in a sound. For effects, I don't mind if they're SS or digital, but I definitely want knobs.


I have lots of logical arguments as to why tube amps are more practical for my situation and stuff, but THIS is the real reason I use tube amps. I need lots of pedals and knobs .


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## MattThePenguin

This thread has been a huge help to me actually lol

It really comes down to how you play honestly. I just don't even bring the OD live because it doesn't really make a huge difference if you play tight. Other guy in my band has a solid state head lol, we always have pretty good live sound because we practice a LOT


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## Unleash The Fury

I told you to get a boss gt100 and run it 4cm but you didnt wanna listen.


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## ThomasUV777

I've owned several tube amps, JCM800, Engl Powerball, 5150 and a Diezel VH4, with pedals. Best thing I ever did in the amp-department was getting an Axe FX II with a Matrix GT1600FX. I thoroughly AB'ed all setups only to conclude that the Axe FX II with the GT1600FX could easily duplicate the sounds I wanted with zero to no effort, and that includes stompboxes. A lot less setup before a show, great for recording, no tube-issues and a hell of a lot easier to carry around. 

I get the charm of playing through a head with pedals & all that, especially with old marshalls. But to me, the advantages of the digital department easily outweigh those of the tube amps.


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## Element0s

powerbert said:


> Suppose I don't go in ear, what can you do to make sure you're audible through a wedge? I mean, yeah you can always play together as a full band and see how it sounds, but that hasn't worked so far. If we throw in some blast beats and heavier double bass part later, it's anyone's guess. Who even knows if it's the same mix I'm getting after other bands have gone.


 I would sound check with one of those heavy-duty parts, in that case. Assuming you're lucky enough to get one, of course. Again, when I invested in solid hearing protection that brought all the levels down without distorting the sound then I found myself able to hear myself pretty well in most situations. Then there's the whole front-end aspect of things--how are the levels of each band members before things are mic'd up? How the cabs/angles are positioned onstage, etc etc. There's some fine-tuning you can do but sometimes time and other circumstances simply aren't on your side and you've just gotta dive in and trust in yourself that you'll play OK thanks to your rehearsal prep. Every so often I will intentionally "fuck with" our setup in the jam room and have my band run the set just so we can be prepared for disaster situations. Also, be sure to practice your set if you're missing a member or two. Practicing for catastrophe is my strategy. 



> Yeah and I think precision is important. It's super disappointing where bands have crisp clear albums but a mushy live set. And even with big metal bands, I think it's plenty frequent you find this. And people are in such denial about it. I don't want to worsen the already over-engineered reputation that my genre of music already has. If this is the nature of your music then you should make more of an effort, not less, to play clearly and precisely. That's sort of my take. I'm not blaming the gear either, I'm clearly trying to take matters into my own hands. So, you know, I invite some of you to back off with the condescension a wee bit.


 I get you, dude. The overall sound is your priority and there's nothing wrong with that. We are in the business of "sounds" after all. That being said, sometimes you just gotta let go and do your best under tough circumstances. I suppose my point of view is a bit different because my band is more of a dirty rock n' roll/barbaric heavy metal thing so we can get away with being a little sloppy and rough around the edges. We just make it our mission to be as easy to work with as possible and make sure our show is as high-energy as possible so that we're able to get people drinking like fish and buying merch regardless of whatever chaos is going on behind the scenes. Maybe if we manage to become a headlining act and have a stronger budget we'll be able to be more picky and finicky about the sound and orchestrating circumstances to our exact tastes but we'll get there when we get there.


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## thoughtpyotr

This might be a minor aside. But the Matrix poweramps are really THAT good. They won't take your tone to another level, but they're the only solid states amps I've ever played with make me feel like I'm playing through a real amp. Doesn't make your tone any better, doesn't add any extra umph to your tonelike the tubes do. But if you have solid patches on your modeler then that wouldn't matter as much.

They take away some of the digital _feel,_ if that makes any sense.


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## budda

If the sound is your top priority and not your performance, well... good luck .

Here's the thing: perception is an easy thing to change, as is memory. If you play a stupidly tight set, and *the audience doesn't know you weren't happy with something*, they are going to remember an awesome band. Their memory will tell them that your band sounded great and that you had great songs.

I can tell you that I hear a lot of awesome bands on tour, and I can tell you that I can't remember _*what*_ the tones were - only that the bands are good at what they do. I can't describe the tone of my friend's rig, despite knowing what it is, because I know how the band sounds - not his guitar.

I bet that anyone who's been to our last few shows can't tell you if I had gear problems or not, but I know the answer. The trick is to overcome regular issues that occur for any live act of anything (theater, music, visual arts, anything). Be prepared for the worst and make a plan for when it happens.

As for the monitors thing - get used to not having them. Get used to operating at the bare minimum and making it seem like someone handed you a $50K budget for your show. That and the other things I mentioned will be the difference between "kinda cocky opener with some good riffs" and "really awesome people to work with who put on a great show". If you can't make small snafus work in a live situation, it's going to be really difficult for other bands to work with you.

On the topic of hearing protection, save up and buy moulded earplugs. There are adjustable filters, they're fairly easy to purchase, and so long as you don't lose them you'll have them a lifetime.

If you want to help build a successful band, the thinking has to be "how do we make the whole greater than the parts" not "how do I perfect my piece in this puzzle". I'm not saying ignore your tone and all that comes with it, but ask yourself if it's improving the band. Using myself as an example: I have space for another pedal. I have power for another pedal. What will actually improve our show is my being more accurate with the pedals I already have. Do I want another pedal? You're damn right, I have a short list. But it's irrelevant because I'm still not up to par with the gear I already have. That money is better spent on paying off our van at this point.


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## BenSolace

IEM's with tube amps is undoubtedly harder than with modellers and the like, however I gotta disagree saying that IEM's are *always *a pain. We use IEM's for every band member and all the gear needed for that plus my guitar and vocal sounds is contained within one 10U rack with a laptop in the top bit (similar to a mixer top but custom made to accommodate the laptop). No feeds from FOH, all DI vocals/guitar/bass and kick trigger.

That being said we don't monitor the other drums, but then again we don't really tend to play stadiums so even with my custom mould IEMs you can hear the cymbals and snare with ease. Also we play to a click so we wouldn't really need to hear the drums.

It was definitely a process to convert over from tube amps though to make it possible!


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## Screamingdaisy

powerbert said:


> My hope was with the loadbox/headphone amp (I'd still run a cab), I could get a direct feed of my guitar into an in ear. That's it really, I don't care about a full band mix. I don't really need to hear anyone else in the band, just the drummer and myself.



I'm not totally getting this one. The one thing I don't need in my monitor is my own instrument since it's the one thing I can hear clearly since it's right behind me. I monitor myself using my cab. What I want in my monitor is the other instruments.

The risk I can see with your setup is a false sense of dynamics. If your guitar is DI'd into your head and you can't hear the rest of the band clearly you may compensate by over/under playing your instrument.



> It's super disappointing where bands have crisp clear albums but a mushy live set.



We have a local prog band that runs full in-ears. On stage they have a perfectly clear mix that sounds awesome and out front it's a mushy wash that's drenched in reverb. Best I can figure out is that they've dialled themselves in to sound good through their ears, but that doesn't necessarily translate through a fullrange PA with subs in a big open room. This is obviously user error and not the fault of the equipment, I mention it more to illustrate that equipment won't necessarily fix poor instrumentation/arrangement.

IMO, the best way to sound like a tight band is to work towards sounding like a tight band. That fact that you're even thinking about this means you'll likely be further ahead than many other bands, but adding equipment isn't going to solve poorly EQ'd amps and/or musicians who don't play well with other musicians.


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## bostjan

Do they have a sound guy at those gigs? If a band sounds super tight and clear and crisp on stage, but sounds like a mushy mess out front, then there is a huge problem with how the sound reinforcement is put together, either shit gear or a shit soundman.


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## Screamingdaisy

bostjan said:


> Do they have a sound guy at those gigs? If a band sounds super tight and clear and crisp on stage, but sounds like a mushy mess out front, then there is a huge problem with how the sound reinforcement is put together, either shit gear or a shit soundman.



Great PA, awesome soundman. Soundman asked them to turn down the reverb, they didn't.


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## ZombieLloyd

Screamingdaisy said:


> Great PA, awesome soundman. Soundman asked them to turn down the reverb, they didn't.



Who uses reverb at gigs anyway? I'm not pretending to have any stage experience but I've always heard that reverb is pointless when you're playing live.


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## budda

ZombieLloyd said:


> Who uses reverb at gigs anyway? I'm not pretending to have any stage experience but I've always heard that reverb is pointless when you're playing live.



That is not true. Different rooms have their own reverb, but that does not mean that having the effect is useless. Anyone doing anything atmospheric probably has at least 1 reverb pedal on their board.


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## ZombieLloyd

budda said:


> That is not true. Different rooms have their own reverb, but that does not mean that having the effect is useless. Anyone doing anything atmospheric probably has at least 1 reverb pedal on their board.



After this post I did think about the bands that have atmospheric sections in their songs, I should have thought before I posted haha.


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## bostjan

Screamingdaisy said:


> Great PA, awesome soundman. Soundman asked them to turn down the reverb, they didn't.



So how are they getting such a good stage sound, if everything is drenched in reverb before it gets to the board?


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## powerbert

Since this thread is still going, I'll thrown in some updates.

Played a show last Friday. Basically foreshadowed by this thread, I forgot the adapter to my DI box so I wasn't even able to set up in ears. However during soundcheck I accidentally got the sound guy to turn up the monitor so loud it was basically distorting the wedges. No problem with me as I ended up hearing myself to a good 95% for the most part. But there was still 5% of the time where I wasn't sure whether I was making sound. Hearing it back on a few camera videos showed that there were some mix issues that we should have communicated but nonetheless things sounded decent.

I took this as an omen to return the expensive DI setup and go with something simpler. I think what I will do is check the IEM to be at reasonable safe listening volume during silence, turn it off during soundcheck and have it back on during the set. I listen to the drums and the rest of the instruments through the IEM bleed. I don't need a ton of audibility, just a slight bump in my own signal so I can get some instant feedback.

Next show I'd even maybe opt for using the in-ears as hearing protection only, and only turning it on via the hip pack in a real "emergency" monitoring situation where I'm simply not able to hear myself. I know one would be worried about dangerous hearing levels, but my theory is that due to the constructive interference of your own IEM signal with the stage signal, you don't actually need a ton of volume to really get a hearing boost. In fact when I turn on the IEM it almost sounds like I'm actually just hearing myself through the cab, but much crisper.

The cheap setup that I'm thinking about is:

Tuner bypass -> Small digital modeler (like a Zoom) -> Behringer Powerplay P1 -> IEM

If this doesn't work because of level issues for some reason then I'll use a Behringer Ultra-G instead. IEM setup for less than 200 dollars.

The critique that if you're just in front of your cab that you shouldn't need in ears -- this hasn't seemed to work very well for me personally, as I've mentioned. Then again, maybe molded ear protection would fix this. The other guitarist doesn't have an issue with this and he uses the same crappy $10 plugs that I do. But I can't count how many times I'm playing then suddenly I think I've cut out for some reason and never quite sure whether I'm actually making any sound (tripped cable, blown fuse, or some other reason -- has happened to me).

I think one reason is that cab is basically at knee level. Hearing out the monitors usually works a bit better so it is probably just on me to communicate a better wedge signal.

Speaking of ambient pedals, the band we opened for is for a touring black metal band Numenorean last Friday. They put on an amazing live show, just going wild. Speaking of pedals, they must have like 20 different of just ambient pedals on stage between 3 dudes. I just thought, alright, that looks a bit more complicated than my setup. So you tube amp people win this one (for now) lol.


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## budda

It sounds like an amp stand would solve your monitor issues, if you have a 212. If you have a 412, just bend down to see if you're making sound. If you aren't, then comes the troubleshooting. If you are, go back to putting on a tight show.


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## TedEH

powerbert said:


> The critique that if you're just in front of your cab that you shouldn't need in ears -- this hasn't seemed to work very well for me personally, as I've mentioned. Then again, maybe molded ear protection would fix this. The other guitarist doesn't have an issue with this and he uses the same crappy $10 plugs that I do.


The way this is worded makes it sound like your issue is more to do with cheap earplugs, and/or finding your proper place is the mix, rather than with monitoring. Most guitar amps at this point can drown out drummers without a sweat, so if you had no earplugs at all, or just used more volume, you'd probably hear your cab just fine. I'm not recommending this of course. I've got some $30-40 ish earplugs that, while an improvement over just those super cheap foam things, still more or less just sound like a blanket thrown over your head- way too much high end is removed, leaving you with plenty of that low/mid stuff that every instrument is always fighting for. I've not tried expensive/molded hearing protection so I can't speak for how good they are, but they sound like a good idea to me (see what I did thar).

Another consideration is whether or not your gear is setup such that each instrument isn't fighting everyone else. In one band I used to use a Traynor amp that sounded good on it's own, but when in a band situation, the shape/character of the gain channel on it didn't mesh well with the other elements of the band- the high end was buried by cymbals, and the low end got swallowed up by the rectos and bass stuff. I eventually got a Mesa Mark IV and now it's got soooo much mid content that it cuts through everything. In another band, on bass, I find a lot of "my sound" came about by finding ways to cut around the guitars, because I wanted to be audible without drowning them out. In either case, I never have issues with monitoring or hearing myself through the wall of sound simply because I specifically aim for otherwise unoccupied sonic space when dialing an amp for the band. The Mark IV makes that easy cause most people scoop mids. I just keep all those mids, and let the other guitarist fill up the high and low ends around it.


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## Screamingdaisy

bostjan said:


> So how are they getting such a good stage sound, if everything is drenched in reverb before it gets to the board?



Individual mixes. Rather than dial in tones/effects that compliment each other they turn the other guitarists down in their IEM so they can hear themselves better.


Which, ironically, is what the soundman did to them. I didn't really want to get into this much detail, but the one guitar must've been zeroed out on the soundboard because we could see him moving but couldn't hear a thing he was playing. I don't think the soundman was trying to sabotage the band... I think he was doing is best to produce a clear mix. The singer was running stereo effects on his vocals and in between songs he was talking to the crowd and I could hear 5-7 seconds of dwell on his reverb and it was mixed way too wet.

Best I can figure out they dialled things in with their IEMs at rehearsal and those tiny little speakers were rolling off a lot of detail... so they overcompensated by going wetter than necessary.

This obviously isn't the fault of the IEM. I mostly brought this story up as a cautionary tail against using IEM as a bandaid to fix your mix when you should be working to dial in your instruments better.


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## El Caco

bostjan said:


> A related vent


Also a related vent. Why is the digital reverb on my HT5R the best sounding reberb I have hear and all it has is one knob and why doesn't the reverb on the more expensive Blackstar amps sound as good?


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## Kevcarnage

honestly man thats my problem. Eventually digital stuff will take over so the sooner i hop on the train the better lol. I'm thinking it may be cheaper getting a modelling amp in the long run anyways.


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## El Caco

Kevcarnage said:


> honestly man thats my problem. Eventually digital stuff will take over so the sooner i hop on the train the better lol. I'm thinking it may be cheaper getting a modelling amp in the long run anyways.


Tone is subjective and taste changes over time. Just play whatever sounds good to you.

On the TVP amps you can turn the TVP feature off and one of the things I see universally said is there was no point putting that button on there or once you turn it on you will never turn it off. I've even seen it suggested the only reason for the button was marketing so it makes the TVP function stand out and the button is a gimmick. But those are all ignorant. There are times when a person might want that low fidelity SS tone, like in an intro or in some kind of electronic music or Industrial. By including the ability to turn off TVP you have more tonal options without the need for another amp. My point is most people think that function sounds like crap and from their perspective they are right, for someone else it might be just what they are looking for.

You only need to consider your needs and preferences. For me today the ultimate rig just might be a Joyo DualKlonz fitted with EL84's thrown in the loop of a Boss MS3 with an expression pedal and 2 button footswitch thrown in. That seems like the perfect marriage of digital and tubes with the MS3 controlling the whole show by midi, having all those quality digital effects to combine in a simple way with a variety of all tube amps that can be tailor built to your needs or preference. But a gigging musician might need more than 25w and a gigging musician might not want to take a chance on such a complicated new tube amp from a company like Joyo. I'd imagine you would absolutely need a backup so that means transporting two heads and two Boss MS3's even though I doubt the Boss MS3 will ever fail. And at that point it might make a lot more sense to control a Kemper with a GT100 by midi so you have just one rig and the GT100 is now your backup if the Kemper ever died. That might be too expensive for a struggling guitarist.

There is no one fit option for everyone and there is no such thing as the perfect rig. Just get the thing that you can afford that sounds good and works for you. For many of us that's a never ending journey.


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## Moltar

Just saw this the other day: http://www.fortinamps.com/product/33-matteblack/

Overdrive that will switch your channels when you turn it off and on.


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## Screamingdaisy

Kevcarnage said:


> honestly man thats my problem. Eventually digital stuff will take over so the sooner i hop on the train the better lol. I'm thinking it may be cheaper getting a modelling amp in the long run anyways.



The sooner you hop on the train the more outdated your technology will be by the time someone finally produces whatever it is that finally takes over.

Honestly, other than a couple of Line 6 beginner combos I don't think I've seen anyone in my scene using a modelling amp live. Probably 2/3rds of the bands I see are using Fender and Vox combos with dirt pedals. Others I remember seeing are Marshall DSL and MG, Orange RV, 5150/6505, Classic 30, an H&K mini-head of some sort and the occasional weird amp I don't recognize. My band uses an Electra Dyne and Thunderverb.

The local independent store I frequent brought in a Helix and it sat for a year, meanwhile tube combos are selling.

Every scene is different and they all have their trends, but what I'm seeing in real life is that tubes amps are still pretty dominant. I think the good modelling gear is still too expensive for the average musician and the cheap modelling gear teaches them to hate modelling gear. Additionally, you need a rig that can carry the room unmic'd since there's a lot of places where the PA is vox and kick only with limited monitors, and the simplest way to do that is with a combo amp.


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## TedEH

^ I've been seeing a lot of modellers at local shows lately and I've finally come across one that I was impressed with. Saw a show the other day where for one rig most of the sound I think came from a Helix, and it sounded good to me. BUT- It was being run into a big ol' standard tube amp and cab, that may or may not have been providing the dirt. Soooo I dunno if it sounded good because of the tube power behind it, or because the models were good, or what, but it was the first time in a while I was impressed enough by a guitar sound to go see what it was, and discovered it was a modeller.


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## Screamingdaisy

Some people really like using modellers for effects, particularly the ones with flexible routing.

The guy may also be in the middle of a conversion... he has the Helix, but is still using his old head/cab while he saves for a FRFR.


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## Element0s

Screamingdaisy said:


> Honestly, other than a couple of Line 6 beginner combos I don't think I've seen anyone in my scene using a modelling amp live.


 That's interesting--I remember a few Edmonton bands (in the metal realm) whose guitarists are/were running digital rigs back in my Dead-City days. Out in Vancouver there are quite a few bands running Axe-FX or even a Kemper live, especially the busier touring acts. I've seen a people using the Helix as well (bassists and singers, interestingly enough... haven't seen a guitarist use one besides myself) and the L&M I teach at can't bring them in fast enough to meet demand it seems.

Not trying to be argumentative btw. It's just interesting that our experiences have been quite different.


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## Screamingdaisy

Element0s said:


> That's interesting--I remember a few Edmonton bands (in the metal realm) whose guitarists are/were running digital rigs back in my Dead-City days. Out in Vancouver there are quite a few bands running Axe-FX or even a Kemper live, especially the busier touring acts. I've seen a people using the Helix as well (bassists and singers, interestingly enough... haven't seen a guitarist use one besides myself) and the L&M I teach at can't bring them in fast enough to meet demand it seems.
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative btw. It's just interesting that our experiences have been quite different.



Could be the difference in scenes. My band is more rock/alternative and we're on the lower end of the food chain. Occasionally headlining a local show and opening for smaller touring acts. We've only shared the bill with a metal band a few times and those guys have all been using real amps.


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## budda

Kevcarnage said:


> honestly man thats my problem. Eventually digital stuff will take over so the sooner i hop on the train the better lol. I'm thinking it may be cheaper getting a modelling amp in the long run anyways.



They've been saying digital stuff will take over since the 80's when it showed up. There's more of it now (cheaper to make, easier to sell) but there's still a wack of tube amps at just about every show where a guitar is being used.


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## xAGx

I'm lost. If you have to tap dance using a 6505+ that has an effects loop foot switch you must be using alot of sounds lol. I use an EQ and digital delay in my loop. My IRT60 has reverb built in so it has its own footswitch.

With the 6505+ I literally have the EQ as a volume and lead boost with the delay and EQ always on and just hit the effects loop switch


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## mongey

powerbert said:


> - Peavey 6505+: $900
> - Boss Overdrive: $50
> - Decimator 2: $130
> - Reverb pedal: $75
> - Pedaltrain: $100
> - Power Supply: $30
> - Loadbox, Cab Sim and Headphone amp: $400
> - Cables: $30
> - Tap dancing instead of playing songs properly: priceless
> 
> Sorry, just venting. So glad I still have access to technology that's 50 years old.



I dabbled with axe fx for a while thinking it was going to save a whole bunch of time and effort and found the opposite .I spent more time making and tweaking presets than I did playing . it had benefits sure ,but end of the day I just went back to my recto and pedals that have knobs that I can easily tweak while playing . tweaking anything on the fly with the axe fx was a total drama .I'll take tap dancing any day over that


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## TheArsonistsDaughter

Maybe I missed it, but I'm still not sure how you're not able to hear yourself with a 6505+ and a cab? What cab are you using and how far away are you able to get from it on stage? I'm 6'4" so I get having 90% of your sound hitting you in the knees or butt...lol. So I always try and get my amp as far back on the stage as I can so I can catch the sweet spot of my cab. Worst case scenario, I can bend down into the cab's beam.

I'd definitely focus on sorting out a balanced live sound that you can hear with the drummer and other guitar player before adding more complicated set-up items. Because the rules of playing live in an independent metal band seem to be:

No sound check
PA for vocals only
Monitors? What are those?
Whadaya mean you have a sampler?
WTF is "running direct"?
Oh yeah we have monitors, how about we put everything but what you need through them?
We're running late, you have 5 min to setup before having to cut your set time
You can plug in over there, it's only 30 feet from the stage and we're running the PA off of it
I'm in the next band, let me start setting up my gear as your last note rings out.

As far as tap-dancing, some sort of pedal switcher would give you one button switching that changes lots of things at once. There's the Boss unit, a few Voodoo Lab floor units, and rack mount options. If you stick with the in-ears and load box, a small rack with something like the Voodoo Lab GCX and a pedal tray would let you program patches with pedals and amp switching. Of course then you'd have to add the cost of a midi controller to your list.

In my band's history, I went from a head/cab + 2 space rack (fx processor in loop) to head/cab + 4 space rack (a few pedals in a switcher in the front and processor in loop) to Axe FX 2 + powered monitor to currently, Axe FX 2 + Matrix Power Amp + cab.

Never had an issue with the head/cab set-ups, Axe FX 2 + powered monitor shows ranged from fine to disaster, and while I haven't played a show with the current rig, it's crushing in practice. I've stuck with the Axe FX 2 mostly because I wanted to shrink my rig a bit. It sounds almost identical to my Dual Recto + rack rig, but it's less (and lighter) to carry.


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## budda

You guys know this was from last July ya?


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## TheArsonistsDaughter

budda said:


> You guys know this was from last July ya?



No. No I did not.


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## noob_pwn

I'm going back to real amps from the digital world, where touring permits me to bring my big rig. Why? Because it just sounds better. And if you have a decent looper like a gigrig or RJM PBC the tapdance is over.


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## ElRay

budda said:


> You guys know this was from last July ya?


Still, a good necro is better than a new thread.


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## budda

noob_pwn said:


> I'm going back to real amps from the digital world, where touring permits me to bring my big rig. Why? Because it just sounds better. And if you have a decent looper like a gigrig or RJM PBC the tapdance is over.



If you use pedals, you probably have digital processing in front of solid state or tube amps (digital is also a "real amp" but we all know what you mean ).

Yes I'm just being pedantic and was fully aware of what you mean


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