# Neural DSP teasing something new (Quad Cortex)



## HeHasTheJazzHands

https://www.facebook.com/NeuralDSP/photos/a.358099474677078/748523215634700/?type=3&theater


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## Flemmigan

Neural DSP Archetype: Axe FX


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## Deadpool_25

Looks more like Archetype: Helix, but yeah lol

If it has, or you can load, all their plugins....could be VERY interesting.


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## mikah912

Hardware with their algorithms would be a game changer.


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## Metropolis

Please be a hardware modeler, please please... I have a feeling it's one big plugin suite, but... we are not ready? For what?


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## GunpointMetal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Looks more like Archetype: Helix, but yeah lol.


Line 6 definitely hit on something with their user interface, as noted by pretty much every competitor copying it to varying degrees. 
I'd be super interested in a hardware modeler from Neural DSP. I love the sound of their plugins, but I'm a hardware guy when it comes to guitar processing. I don't wanna fall in love with a tone and then have to haul a computer around for guitar processing.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

GunpointMetal said:


> Line 6 definitely hit on something with their user interface, as noted by pretty much every competitor copying it to varying degrees.



I still find it funny how some competitors were trying to downplay the Helix and just saying it's a gimmick with the big screen and UI.

...And then everyone tries to copy it, or is inspired by it in someway.


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## wakjob

Damn...I've had my HX Stomp for a whole day. 
Then this happens.


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## Backsnack

Deadpool_25 said:


> Looks more like Archetype: Helix, but yeah lol
> 
> If it has, or you can load, all their plugins....could be VERY interesting.


It seems like they’ve been leaning toward this for a while.


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## Backsnack

wakjob said:


> Damn...I've had my HX Stomp for a whole day.
> Then this happens.


No one knows if this is hardware or not. We’ll see.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah, there's a chance this could just be a Helix Native-style plugin, or a mobile deal like Jamup.


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## Lorcan Ward

Whatever it is it’s going to be good. Right now I’d prefer a suite plugin to load all their plugins so you can pick and choose components from each but a hardware version would be really cool.


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## GunpointMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...And then everyone tries to copy it, or is inspired by it in someway.


knowing how long it take some of these companies from design to production, there's a solid chance they were all headed in similar directions anyways....except for Mooer, I'm pretty sure they just snagged some L6 code and messed with it.
I'd honestly be mega disappointed if it's a mobile thing for phones. To me that shit is lame.


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## Wolfhorsky

It would be so COOL that it would be available for HX users. I would buy Nolly and Plini in a heartbeat.


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## GunpointMetal

I'd say there's about 0.000000001% L6 is gonna open up the platform to third parties for modeling, but there is a chance, I suppose.


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## Backsnack

GunpointMetal said:


> Line 6 definitely hit on something with their user interface, as noted by pretty much every competitor copying it to varying degrees.
> I'd be super interested in a hardware modeler from Neural DSP. I love the sound of their plugins, but I'm a hardware guy when it comes to guitar processing. I don't wanna fall in love with a tone and then have to haul a computer around for guitar processing.


This is why am HX Stomp competitor by them would be awesome.


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## Bentaycanada

I believe it's hardware for playing VST's in a live environment. Fingers crossed.


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## Boofchuck

GunpointMetal said:


> I'd say there's about 0.000000001% L6 is gonna open up the platform to third parties for modeling, but there is a chance, I suppose.


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## GunpointMetal

I hope if it’s hardware they go full floorboard (with exp pedal)!


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## Necky379

Bentaycanada said:


> I believe it's hardware for playing VST's in a live environment. Fingers crossed.



Just what I’ve been waiting for.


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## Backsnack

Bentaycanada said:


> I believe it's hardware for playing VST's in a live environment. Fingers crossed.


If it’s a piece of hardware, I hope they offer some sort of discount offer for people who have bought their plugins. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking.

Also I think it’s more likely that they would re-code the amp models into a DSP compatible format that’s optimized for live audio, lower-latency use instead of standard VSTs. So it would be something more akin to Helix hardware, but I’m just spitballing here.


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## Backsnack

GunpointMetal said:


> I hope if it’s hardware they go full floorboard (with exp pedal)!


Nah smaller is better. Let us use it with our existing pedals.


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## GunpointMetal

Backsnack said:


> Nah smaller is better. Let us use it with our existing pedals.


I’m an all-in-one guy, so I’m being selfish, lol. Unless it comes in under $500, I don’t wanna have to add anything to it.


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## Backsnack

GunpointMetal said:


> I’m an all-in-one guy, so I’m being selfish, lol. Unless it comes in under $500, I don’t wanna have to add anything to it.


You don't have to add anything to an HX Stomp in a lot of cases. But it's nice that it's small enough to fit on a pedalboard with other things so you have the option to do it.


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## Backsnack

Oh damn, Doug Castro is up in here liking my posts, hahah.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

GuitarSetup said:


> Still waiting for Zoom Namm 2020 teasing but this is great



Don't get your hopes up. Unless there's a huge miracle, Zoom never reached this level of modeling.


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## bmth4111

This news couldn't have hit at a better time. Using the nameless trial and blown away, if it's hardware my axe fx will have to find a new home soon! 

I hope it's a rack unit, less than 3u preferably. Floor units freak me out in that all my hard earned money is on the floor where people can trip or spill things on.


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## Spinedriver

If it's hardware I DEFINITELY can't afford it, so I'll just make do with my Preamp Live & Boss EQ-200....


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## Backsnack

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Don't get your hopes up. Unless there's a huge miracle, Zoom never reached this level of modeling.


True, but I would love for Zoom to release a budget product that makes the higher end manufacturers sweat.


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## Backsnack

bmth4111 said:


> This news couldn't have hit at a better time. Using the nameless trial and blown away, if it's hardware my axe fx will have to find a new home soon!
> 
> I hope it's a rack unit, less than 3u preferably. Floor units freak me out in that all my hard earned money is on the floor where people can trip or spill things on.


Rack gear is fairly passe and/or niche at this point. They'd more likely release a pedal or a floorboard before doing anything rack-based.


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## technomancer

Note the rack unit behind a sweater on the desk in this video...



(though it could also be another unit they just didn't want showing up in the demo vid that Tosin didn't want to disconnect and reorganize his desk for )


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## bmth4111

technomancer said:


> Note the rack unit behind a sweater on the desk in this video...
> 
> 
> 
> (though it could also be another unit they just didn't want showing up in the demo vid that Tosin didn't want to disconnect and reorganize his desk for )




Haha don't get my hopes up! I agree prob just a axe fx ( I like to keep my expectations Low) Do we know if this is his studio for sure?

Wonder if he actually ever use this plug in live or for recordings.


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## technomancer

bmth4111 said:


> Haha don't get my hopes up! I agree prob just a axe fx ( I like to keep my expectations Low) Do we know if this is his studio for sure?
> 
> Wonder if he actually ever use this plug in live or for recordings.



It's been 3+ years since the last album, does Tosin record anything but product demos anymore?


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## Backsnack

bmth4111 said:


> Haha don't get my hopes up! I agree prob just a axe fx ( I like to keep my expectations Low) Do we know if this is his studio for sure?
> 
> Wonder if he actually ever use this plug in live or for recordings.


For live use he’s gone back to using his Morgan amp as a pedal platform, at least as of last year.


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## Thaeon

Necky379 said:


> Just what I’ve been waiting for.



I just want the Muse Research Receptor back so I can conserve CPU load and Memory.



technomancer said:


> Note the rack unit behind a sweater on the desk in this video...
> 
> 
> 
> (though it could also be another unit they just didn't want showing up in the demo vid that Tosin didn't want to disconnect and reorganize his desk for )




You can see it a little better in Javier's Neural video. Same studio. Appears to be a 2sp. Same black cloth in front of it. So my assumption is that a rack mount piece of hardware is probably on point.


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## Thaeon

I will add that I would probably get one of these since they function so much like dialing in an amp and there are tones from each DSP package that I really like.


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## Necky379

Yeah the Receptor looked cool, SM Pro V-Machine was another.


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## Wolfhorsky

My wishlist:
Simple, graphic, touch screen UI.
Hardware global EQ with 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 Hz.
Size of HX Stomp-ish with 3-4 footswitches.
Modulation added (flanger, tremolo, chorus).
Loadable amp/fx packs.
Price lower than 700€
Thank You, Satan (ooops Santa!)


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## cardinal

bmth4111 said:


> Haha don't get my hopes up! I agree prob just a axe fx ( I like to keep my expectations Low) Do we know if this is his studio for sure?
> 
> Wonder if he actually ever use this plug in live or for recordings.



I love this.

1990s: George Lynch hides a Soldano SLO behind a stack of Randalls or whatever other amps when he plays.

2020: Tosin hides a digital amp under a turtleneck sweater. 

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I genuinely think it's awesome and funny how gear and such has developed.


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## Deadpool_25

I'm a pretty simple dude. I'd be happy with solid hardware that could just run Neural's plugins in a live context. I wouldn't need the level of control you get with Axe FX or even Helix. Just give me the beautifully simple controls I get on the plugins (bonus points for control via a few real knobs) with the ability to run into either an amp FX loop or FOH (or both at the same time).


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## noise in my mind

I prefer a rack unit. Seems like that's what Tosin is hiding.


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## alekosh

Sooner they say on fb
https://www.facebook.com/NeuralDSP/photos/a.358099474677078/749358648884490/?type=3&theater


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Welp. Looks like it's hardware. 

I'm seeing rumblings about it being a sort of interface?


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## Thaeon

Deadpool_25 said:


> I'm a pretty simple dude. I'd be happy with solid hardware that could just run Neural's plugins in a live context. I wouldn't need the level of control you get with Axe FX or even Helix. Just give me the beautifully simple controls I get on the plugins (bonus points for control via a few real knobs) with the ability to run into either an amp FX loop or FOH (or both at the same time).



Literally what I was just thinking. This would be my ideal fly rig. This and a smallish pedalboard with a MIDI board. Ideal.

Edit: The thing the Neural has that attracts a guy like me, is the simplicity of control to get to good sounds. I like to feel like I'm plugging in to an amp and I'm quickly twisting some knobs and getting something I can use in a real context with my band. If this can feel that way instead of making me feel like I'm endlessly trying to tone hunt like the AxeFX and Line6 products make me feel, its a HUGE win. I'm not giving up my tube amps. But this would be huge for practice, quiet writing sessions in my apartment, and for recording in the same context.


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## mikah912

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Welp. Looks like it's hardware.
> 
> I'm seeing rumblings about it being a sort of interface?



Even if it was "just" a floorboard, I'm sure USB interface functionality has to be part of the package. But...so far, so good.


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## bmth4111

That large cylinder on it is protrudes out quite a bit, wonder what that can be. Maybe a knob like the axe to change presets. Looks pretty THICC too.


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## Deadpool_25

From that pic, and from Tosin's and Javier's demos, I'm thinking it may be an interface. That is a BAK (big-ass knob) which reminds me a bit of the Apollo interfaces. Also, those two demos specifically say "guitar into interface into Archetype Abasi." You can see the plugin is running and seems to be active on the computer behind them. The covered thing on the desk doesn't look deep enough for an actual rack unit or for a floor unit. I hope I'm wrong and it's more of a modeler that could be used for live applications but...I'm calling it now...interface.


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

I wrote in another thread I'd buy a Katana rack without hesitation. If Neural are making one.... Shit, I'm gonna have to be making some choices. Neural is about the only amp sims I've enjoyed playing through.


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## GunpointMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Welp. Looks like it's hardware.
> 
> I'm seeing rumblings about it being a sort of interface?


Now that seems like a silly idea, personally. I can't think of a guitar-centric interface that was actually a successful product since probably the TonePort, and that was only successful because it was relatively inexpensive. People who already have the VSTs won't need it unless there are hardware-specific models, and if you are already doing computer recording, is off-loading amp modeling to a separate interface really worth the hassle?


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## Metropolis

Interfaces marketed towards guitar players are kind of a niche market... so many players really don't need them combined. Just a hardware modeler rack or floor could be much better. This BAK is probably in the right side of the unit, because they always are.


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## sakeido

An interface would be totally bizarre if it didn't have built-in DSP to run the plugins and can run in standalone mode. I'd put my money on it being an interface with DSP and pulling up the plugins to control them on the computer is optional.

If it didn't have DSP I suppose they could bring it out and bring top level AD/DA to a lower price bracket.. Cranborne already proved that could be done by offering 8 channels of Lynx Hilo/RME ADI-2 caliber AD/DA for less than $100 a channel where Lynx and RME charge 500 or 600% that. If it's "just" an interface, performs like that but is playing around in the cheap Focusrite kind of price points, they've got a winner.. otherwise, ehhhhhhh


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## mikah912

Agreed. "Just" an interface - even one with onboard DSP - is completely uninteresting to me. I guess if it had the I/O and MIDI ports you could maybe slap together a modular live solution, but I'd rather not.


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## Lorcan Ward

They could be working with Apollo where you can use the processing power of their interfaces to run countless of their plug-ins, several being guitar plug-ins. The teaser image looks like the Apollo front knob and side grill.


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## alekosh

From a business point of view, why would you want to go compete with the apollos and the rest, when you are famous and absolutely killing it in a total different thing? If it is interface and not a modeller its pretty risky considering buying the hardware which is soo expensive (sharc etc)


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## Deadpool_25

It almost certainly also has modeling in it from the first pic. So integrated modeler/interface seems logical.


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## Spinedriver

I'm thinking it may be an 'interface' of sorts, kind of like the old Pod UX where it'll directly control the plugins without having to load up a daw like Reaper in order to use it.


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## Flappydoodle

alekosh said:


> From a business point of view, why would you want to go compete with the apollos and the rest, when you are famous and absolutely killing it in a total different thing? If it is interface and not a modeller its pretty risky considering buying the hardware which is soo expensive (sharc etc)





Deadpool_25 said:


> It almost certainly also has modeling in it from the first pic. So integrated modeler/interface seems logical.



If you look at the market, this is definitely the trend

Apogee launched a whole bunch of plugins which use processing on their interfaces

Obviously UA are famous for that

So makes total sense that Neural could do this too. Maybe it also means they're going to get into other plugins (vocal processing etc) too


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## mongey

as someone with an 12 old interface, that would be kind of interesting to me


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## bmth4111

what's the difference between a interface with hardware capabilities vs hardware with interface capabilities, just the extra inputs? Either way both sound good to me I guess because live they would work the same haha.


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## Thaeon

bmth4111 said:


> what's the difference between a interface with hardware capabilities vs hardware with interface capabilities, just the extra inputs? Either way both sound good to me I guess because live they would work the same haha.



Particularly with MIDI I/O included. My concern for the interface route is that if the software/firmware running on the device itself requires a computer to function as a live solution. That in particular is NOT interesting. I don't want to have to send MIDI controller signals to a DAW. Cool if its an interface. Cool if its a modeler. But Hybrid is better.


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## mikah912

Thaeon said:


> Particularly with MIDI I/O included. My concern for the interface route is that if the software/firmware running on the device itself requires a computer to function as a live solution. That in particular is NOT interesting. I don't want to have to send MIDI controller signals to a DAW. Cool if its an interface. Cool if its a modeler. But Hybrid is better.



Exactly. The number one thing I think people want from NeuralDSP at this point is decoupling their stuff from computers and being able to use it live (A close number two would be having them all in a single suite). That is the whole reason why people are buzzing about these last two teasers. If the first teaser image was a silhouette of a control surface with sone sliders, there wouldn't be half the excitement. 

Anyway.....we'll find out in the next 6 days.


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## GunpointMetal

I just don't see the need for a guitar dedicated interface. It's either going to be minimal inputs and super high-quality hardware, which limits it's use to only recording one or two sources at a time, or it's going to compromise on the hardware to compete with multi-input interfaces and incorporate DSP. They've already got excellent plugins that people are using to great effect through the hardware they already have, so it seems redundant to me. A hardware AIO unit with a variety of I/O options and the modeling/FX loaded into it would be a great product and put the software everyone has been raving about in a more live-friendly packaging, decoupled from a computer, and it's easy enough to add a USB port for recording anyways. If it can fill those needs and come in priced below or at the Helix LT/FM3 (if that product ever actually hits the street) it would be good and do well. After the whole Amplifi thing with Line 6 (remember the guitar amp reinvented, or whatever ridiculous marketing line they had for that), this kind of marketing always makes me leery.


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## Thaeon

GunpointMetal said:


> I just don't see the need for a guitar dedicated interface. It's either going to be minimal inputs and super high-quality hardware, which limits it's use to only recording one or two sources at a time, or it's going to compromise on the hardware to compete with multi-input interfaces and incorporate DSP. They've already got excellent plugins that people are using to great effect through the hardware they already have, so it seems redundant to me. A hardware AIO unit with a variety of I/O options and the modeling/FX loaded into it would be a great product and put the software everyone has been raving about in a more live-friendly packaging, decoupled from a computer, and it's easy enough to add a USB port for recording anyways. If it can fill those needs and come in priced below or at the Helix LT/FM3 (if that product ever actually hits the street) it would be good and do well. After the whole Amplifi thing with Line 6 (remember the guitar amp reinvented, or whatever ridiculous marketing line they had for that), this kind of marketing always makes me leery.



That amp, while cool, was not the game changer they said it was. Okay for some kids to get together and play some small shows, or maybe for a band that plays small clubs/restaurants where low volume and versatility are paramount. Not for a rock/metal band. The Helix was Line 6 last really solid pro product. A good enough one to make more expensive modeling companies sweat I think. Pete Thorn raving about a product generally means sales.


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## GunpointMetal

Thaeon said:


> That amp, while cool, was not the game changer they said it was. Okay for some kids to get together and play some small shows, or maybe for a band that plays small clubs/restaurants where low volume and versatility are paramount. Not for a rock/metal band. The Helix was Line 6 last really solid pro product. A good enough one to make more expensive modeling companies sweat I think. Pete Thorn raving about a product generally means sales.


 I mean, the Firehawk 1500 amp was pretty cool, the PowerCabs are pretty cool even if they're not powerful enough for my uses, but that whole marketing campaign was a huge disappointment. Even one of the product designers lamented it on another forum recently. Everyone was expecting Vetta III or like a Helix Valve or something, and we got bluetooth speakers with 10 year old modeling, lol. I'm pretty much used to nobody thinking the products I want to see are viable, though, so I have low expectations of this being something of interest to me, personally. Seems like all 8 people that want a guitar-centric interface are in this thread and ready for it, though.


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## Deadpool_25

GunpointMetal said:


> I mean, the Firehawk 1500 amp was pretty cool, the PowerCabs are pretty cool even if they're not powerful enough for my uses, but that whole marketing campaign was a huge disappointment. Even one of the product designers lamented it on another forum recently. Everyone was expecting Vetta III or like a Helix Valve or something, and we got bluetooth speakers with 10 year old modeling, lol. I'm pretty much used to nobody thinking the products I want to see are viable, though, so I have low expectations of this being something of interest to me, personally. Seems like all 8 people that want a guitar-centric interface are in this thread and ready for it, though.



Keep the first pic they posted in mind though (I almost forgot about it after the 2nd pic lol). It looks a lot like a Helix-style interface which implies a significant degree of modeling capability. It'll likely incorporate an interface as well, but so do the Axe FX and Helix. I suspect that calling it merely an interface is probably way underselling it.


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## mikah912

Deadpool_25 said:


> Keep the first pic they posted in mind though (I almost forgot about it after the 2nd pic lol). It looks a lot like a Helix-style interface which implies a significant degree of modeling capability. It'll likely incorporate an interface as well, but so do the Axe FX and Helix. I suspect that calling it merely an interface is probably way underselling it.



The angle of that image also appears to indicate shooting downward at a hardware screen with a new Helix-y UI, not a computer monitor displaying a VST suite.

But the second image definitely evoked a UAD Apollo-esque box, so who the hell knows?


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## GunpointMetal

Deadpool_25 said:


> Keep the first pic they posted in mind though (I almost forgot about it after the 2nd pic lol). It looks a lot like a Helix-style interface which implies a significant degree of modeling capability. It'll likely incorporate an interface as well, but so do the Axe FX and Helix. I suspect that calling it merely an interface is probably way underselling it.


I hope so, but I've seen guitar FX/accessory companies do some wacky shit. Remember that abortion of a pedalboard digitech made you had to load an iPad in, or basically the entire Amplifi line, or any of the "Theta Pro DSP" floorboards ISP keeps putting out, or the interface on the Amplifire stuff? Sometimes engineers forget to check the market or with designers and we get really mediocre products that the company is incredibly stoked to have, lol.


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## Metropolis

If those air vents are in the top part of the chassis, who knows. But it really looks like it's laying down. My another guess is a powered modeler, which is made in collaboration with Darkglass Electronics.


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## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> If those air vents are in the top part of the chassis, who knows. But it really looks like it's laying down. My another guess is a powered modeler, which is made in collaboration with Darkglass Electronics.


 powered modeler would be dope as long as it has enough juice to run a FRFR speaker at band volume!


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## Thaeon

GunpointMetal said:


> I mean, the Firehawk 1500 amp was pretty cool, the PowerCabs are pretty cool even if they're not powerful enough for my uses, but that whole marketing campaign was a huge disappointment. Even one of the product designers lamented it on another forum recently. Everyone was expecting Vetta III or like a Helix Valve or something, and we got bluetooth speakers with 10 year old modeling, lol. I'm pretty much used to nobody thinking the products I want to see are viable, though, so I have low expectations of this being something of interest to me, personally. Seems like all 8 people that want a guitar-centric interface are in this thread and ready for it, though.



It went over poorly because they billed it as the next big thing. Which it was not. 

Based on the actual market, I'd say that the smartest choice is a modelling unit. Period. Guitar players getting great tones in the box is great. We drop a hundred bills and have access to that stuff in our DAW. But now that I have that tone on what I recorded, what about live? They have some of the best models in the industry right now and the stage is a literal impediment to their use.


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## Deadpool_25

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> https://www.facebook.com/NeuralDSP/photos/a.358099474677078/748523215634700/?type=3&theater



Let's talk about this pic a little. Looks like:

Blue: EQ
Orange: Modulation
Purple: Cab
Aqua: Delay/Reverb?
Green: Comp?
Red: Amp

I guess?


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## Gnarcade

Deadpool_25 said:


> Let's talk about this pic a little. Looks like:
> 
> Blue: EQ
> Orange: Modulation
> Purple: Cab
> Aqua: Delay/Reverb?
> Green: Comp?
> Red: Amp
> 
> I guess?



I think you nailed all of them, the Green one is the only one I'm not sure about. Comp makes sense, but maybe its a Pitch/Synth block like the helix has?


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## Wolfhorsky

Imagine hardware hx-like processor from DSP with Plini and Nolly in stereo paralel


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## Boofchuck

Cool


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## GunpointMetal

Well those sure look like foot switches to me!


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## Backsnack

GunpointMetal said:


> Well those sure look like foot switches to me!


True, but it could be a plugin recreation of a pedal. Not exactly sure what pedal lols like that and had the big knob on top ...


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## Backsnack

Gnarcade said:


> I think you nailed all of them, the Green one is the only one I'm not sure about. Comp makes sense, but maybe its a Pitch/Synth block like the helix has?


That would be interesting if true because they’ve never done any pitch/synth effects with their plugins.


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## GunpointMetal

Judging from the captions, its a modeled Jellyfish or something, lol. Biomimetic?


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## Wolfhorsky

Looks like a pedal modeller. GREAT. GAS GAS GAS


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## Deadpool_25

A pedal I can load their plugins into??

GAS!!!!!!!


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## myrtorp

I made a guess and mockup. Lets see tomorrow how correct it is!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Getting flashbacks of the Nintendo Switch mockups.


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## Backsnack

Deadpool_25 said:


> A pedal I can load their plugins into??
> 
> GAS!!!!!!!


Here’s what I’m thinking:

It’s a multieffect unit out of the box with delay, mod effects, etc. You load special Neural Stomp or whatever versions of their amp plugins you’ve already purchased into it from your account. And it works like an audio interface over USB.


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## Frostbite

Backsnack said:


> Here’s what I’m thinking:
> 
> It’s a multieffect unit out of the box with delay, mod effects, etc. You load special Neural Stomp or whatever versions of their amp plugins you’ve already purchased into it from your account. And it works like an audio interface over USB.


Shit I'd buy it


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## alekosh

Frostbite said:


> Shit I'd buy it


that will be expensive, for me. i am very happy with my helix but if that is the case i should be start saving

Looking at today's picture it seems different from yesterday's sooner (pic 2 & 3 timewise). pic 2 looks much taller, with vents and a very big knob. the vents are at the bottom so i guess you are not suppose to put it on the floor. today's pic (3) looks shorter with 2 xlr & a usb at the other end, definitely 4 footswitches on the right side and a strange footshwitch/knob thing on the left side. the footswitches seem at an angle but the left thing not. if they just took the knob cover off for the pic, it is still strange as pic 2 was kind of in the middle. anyway, tomorrow we'll see


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## Deadpool_25

Damn it @Doug Castro! Look what you've done!


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## Element0s

Fuck me _running._


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## vibrantgermancities

This is going to be _so _expensive. 

Disclaimer: I live in the UK.


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## Backsnack

alekosh said:


> that will be expensive, for me. i am very happy with my helix but if that is the case i should be start saving
> 
> Looking at today's picture it seems different from yesterday's sooner (pic 2 & 3 timewise). pic 2 looks much taller, with vents and a very big knob. the vents are at the bottom so i guess you are not suppose to put it on the floor. today's pic (3) looks shorter with 2 xlr & a usb at the other end, definitely 4 footswitches on the right side and a strange footshwitch/knob thing on the left side. the footswitches seem at an angle but the left thing not. if they just took the knob cover off for the pic, it is still strange as pic 2 was kind of in the middle. anyway, tomorrow we'll see


Found the dude who’s a detective by day, in a metal band at night.


----------



## sakeido

Boofchuck said:


> Cool
> View attachment 76330



aw fuck yeah we got it boys, the most classic promo picture of all time

if you didn't do a shadowy silhouette, did you even tease your product?

It'll be very interesting to see how this stacks up against the FM3, which I'm still on the waitlist for. Any day now Fractal...


----------



## Boofchuck

myrtorp said:


> I made a guess and mockup. Lets see tomorrow how correct it is!
> View attachment 76331


Who needs teasers when we have this? I love it haha.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

It's an Archetype: HX Stomp!


----------



## Metropolis

Oh boi it's a floor modeler, probably similar price to Fractal Audio FM3. Five switches is really good number... if it doesn't have more on the other side which we don't see yet.


----------



## alekosh

Backsnack said:


> Found the dude who’s a detective by day, in a metal band at night.


Just very interested


----------



## Metropolis

Many have guessed it has a possibility to load your own amps in the unit, if it's like that my mind will be blown. Like customize your own modeler sort of thing. Personally I need only few good hi-gain amps, clean tone with possibility to break up a little and basic effects like overdrive, compressor, delay, reverb and chorus.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Looking at the "Sooner" and "Tomorrow" pics has me confused. But intrigued so kudos to Neural's marketing team. I was going to speculate a bit on what I'm seeing/not seeing between those two pics but...fuck it. I'll just wait. It's almost tomorrow.


----------



## Metropolis

My suspicion tells me something about the round corners that floorboard has. Darkglass uses that kind of design in their bass amps.


----------



## cwhitey2

If this has the possibility to load select amps (i only need like 3 at most), IRs with on/off/ have a separate out for those(for FOH) and has a power amp so i can plug into a cab...all in a floor board ill shit my pants. If it also has the ability to be an interface and costs under 2.5k ill buy immediately. 


I think im just dreaming though


----------



## Wolfhorsky

I suppose it will have power amp inside. That would be game changer.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Mike Fortin just shared it, so whatever it is, it'll include his plugins for sure.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Just noticed Neural (Doug, I assume?) said it’ll come in under $1800. So we have that going for us.


----------



## Backsnack

Deadpool_25 said:


> Just noticed Neural (Doug, I assume?) said it’ll come in under $1800. So we have that going for us.


Let's hope it's cheaper than that.


I'm real close to pulling the trigger on an Amp1 Iridium Edition. I'm basically waiting until the NAMM dust settles to see if anything new might persuade me to hold up until later in 2020. This is probably one of the main things that's got me curious, but I'm sure feeding into their hype machine from their Instagram page is a big part of that.


----------



## Bearitone

GunpointMetal said:


> I hope if it’s hardware they go full floorboard (with exp pedal)!


I like this idea


----------



## Bearitone

double post


----------



## diagrammatiks

and it's out


----------



## Flappydoodle

Guess that’s an early leak. They haven’t officially announced it yet. And the link is dead already.


----------



## Spinedriver

It'd be nice if it were the same price as the HX Stomp or the Amplifire 6 but I can't see it being that low given that the Archetype packs are $150 or so on their own.That & although it could be a touch screen, the lack of buttons for editing seems a bit troubling. Even the Hotone Ampero has editing buttons.

Unless they are taking a cue from Mooer's Preamp Live pedal where you do all your editing via software and just save everything to the pedal, in which case it could justify it being a little cheaper.

(with the PAL, you can make changes to your settings and save them but you CAN'T select amps, od pedals or cabs without the editor)


----------



## makecamera

https://guitar.com/news/neural-dsp-quad-cortex-modeller-multi-effects-namm-2020/


----------



## narad

Evigan Xiao just got demoted to coffee duty...

But yea, guess it's as expected. Kinda lame to lead out in the headline with "powered by machine learning" like ML is absent from other company's approaches, but looks like a cool product for those otherwise considering Line6 and with more progressive music tastes. I was personally hoping for some more knobs and immediacy to controlling parameters in an easy way, but maybe I'm in a minority. I guess we have to brace for the youtuber demo shitstorm that's about to break?


----------



## Wolfhorsky

YES.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

It was leaked by guitar.com early. I can't get into the page since its down now.

Lots of posts up on Facebook though:






""The Quad Cortex features new technology called Neural Capture, which is powered by a unique neural network architecture that is capable of autonomously analysing, learning, and replicating an amplifier’s sound and dynamic response in a way that’s akin to human perception. The brand claims that Neural Capture’s ability to profile rigs is unparalleled in terms of accuracy and realism."

So it tone matches gear like the Kemper and Axe-fx?


----------



## budda

Don't put a touch screen on something that goes under feet .

The one knob makes me wonder how efficient this is for live use. Bedroom guys will probably go nuts.


----------



## Beheroth

https://guitar.com/news/neural-dsp-quad-cortex-modeller-multi-effects-namm-2020/






"NAMM 2020: Neural DSP’s all-new Quad Cortex is the Helsinki-based company’s first step into the hardware scene, and uses machine learning techniques to power the tech company’s unique modelling methods.

The Quad Cortex features new technology called Neural Capture, which is powered by a unique neural network architecture that is capable of autonomously analysing, learning, and replicating an amplifier’s sound and dynamic response in a way that’s akin to human perception. The brand claims that Neural Capture’s ability to profile rigs is unparalleled in terms of accuracy and realism.

Another feature of the Quad Cortex includes a significant amount of processing power. 2Ghz of dedicated DSP from the Quad Cortex’s quad-core SHARC and dual ARM architectures puts it ahead of most other floor units. In turn, this amount of power allows for more simultaneous amp models, digital effects, routing and sound-shaping capabilities. Doug Castro, founder and CEO of Neural DSP, also claims that the Quad Cortex “is the most powerful floor modeller unit on the planet” and is able to “run four rigs simultaneously”.


Neural DSP has managed to distil the capabilities of the Quad Cortex into a slim, compact format for portability. The Quad Cortex is also fitted with a 7-inch multi-touch screen and proprietary rotary footswitch controls for ease of operation."

ma peepee hard


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Let’s move with further discussion here:
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/neural-dsp-quad-cortex.339874


----------



## makecamera

budda said:


> Don't put a touch screen on something that goes under feet .
> 
> The one knob makes me wonder how efficient this is for live use. Bedroom guys will probably go nuts.



The article says it has rotary footswitches.


----------



## noise in my mind

I wonder how many sales Fractal will lose with their delayed fm3 by this.


----------



## cwhitey2

So is this going to be similar to the Kemper? That's what I got out of that article anyways.


----------



## SamSam

noise in my mind said:


> I wonder how many sales Fractal will lose with their delayed fm3 by this.



If its price is within the same bracket I can see them really kicking themselves.

I'll wait for more info but the Neural stuff is great and I will strongly consider it over the FM3


----------



## Wolfhorsky

It should be in the same price ballpark as Kemper Profiler Stage, which they obviously are aiming to.


----------



## Snarpaasi

Is there any excuse to buy this home if I already have Nameless + Plini and I'm more than happy to my sounds?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

cwhitey2 said:


> So is this going to be similar to the Kemper? That's what I got out of that article anyways.



From the article it sounds like a Kemper 2. Snooze you lose I guess.


----------



## Metropolis

So far so good  Seems like Quad Cortex name refers to four possible signal paths. Definetly Kemper Stage or AX8 money I guess if we look at the price.



Snarpaasi said:


> Is there any excuse to buy this home if I already have Nameless + Plini and I'm more than happy to my sounds?



Might be? If you play live or just want to have an intuitive ground for signal path and try different things with that. What if they have bunch of amp models in it along with profiling technology, that would be awesome.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Sounds like a cool product. Not buying a “full” floor modeler without an expression pedal, but a bunch of people are gonna be stoked.


----------



## Snarpaasi

Metropolis said:


> Might be? If you play live or just want to have an intuitive ground for signal path and try different things with that. What if they have bunch of amp models in it along with profiling technology, that would be awesome.



Talking in general, I'd say the majority don't need a bunch of different tones. Even if you play live, good dry clean crunch lead covers the most of it. I've noticed to have to an Ola syndrom, with all the amps and plugins I tend to dial the same tone. Still the tweaking never ends..


----------



## Deadpool_25

Touch screen and rotary footswitches. It reads like it’s basically a profiler akin to Kemper. I’m guessing those XLR connections are for mics to do its profiling thing.

Interesting that there’s no mention of it running their plugins. With that much processing power, I still think it’s possible you’ll be able to load amps and effects from those but we’ll see. 

Honestly that article has dampened my enthusiasm but I’m still waiting for their official release to see what other details are forthcoming. 

As for price my guess is $1500-1600


----------



## Deadpool_25

GunpointMetal said:


> Sounds like a cool product. Not buying a “full” floor modeler without an expression pedal, but a bunch of people are gonna be stoked.



It’s cool in a way to have one integrated, but the lack of one means less potential for breaking and the ability to choose the expression pedal you like most. Double edged sword I guess.


----------



## Metropolis

Snarpaasi said:


> Talking in general, I'd say the majority don't need a bunch of different tones. Even if you play live, good dry clean crunch lead covers the most of it. I've noticed to have to an Ola syndrom, with all the amps and plugins I tend to dial the same tone. Still the tweaking never ends..



I need a hi-gain rhythm and lead tones plus a clean tone with reverb/delay. About three is minimum for me and I would maybe use more for song specific situations.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Deadpool_25 said:


> It’s cool in a way to have one integrated, but the lack of one means less potential for breaking and the ability to choose the expression pedal you like most. Double edged sword I guess.


 I’m not interested in “profiling”, so to me this just a floor modeler with missing features. If it’s in that $1500-$2k range, it’s not for me if I gotta add more stuff to it to use it live. Like I said though, I’m sure lots of people will like it. I’d assume it’s gonna have it’s own modeling based on their plugins.


----------



## Deadpool_25

GunpointMetal said:


> I’m not interested in “profiling”, so to me this just a floor modeler with missing features. If it’s in that $1500-$2k range, it’s not for me if I gotta add more stuff to it to use it live. Like I said though, I’m sure lots of people will like it. I’d assume it’s gonna have it’s own modeling based on their plugins.



I’m with you on the profiling thing. I’ve never been really interested in that. For me it’s mostly because, as I understand it, a profile is a “model” of the amp at one setting then estimating the the way it reacts to control changes. Modeling is modeling the whole thing, controls and all. That and the Kemper is ugly as fuck. Never felt the need to tone match on the Axe FX since it has more than enough amps as it is.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I don't think any tone-matched tones have ever worked for me. From using Ozone, EZMix, Kemper, Axe-Fx 2 and several amp sim plug-ins that were made using tone matching I rarely ever found something that worked and then they just fell apart once EQ'd. The biggest problem with the Kemper was the gain knob being so destructive. If they've added in a whole suite of effect and the tone-matches overlayed on their own amp sims(depending on gain structure) then this could be a winner.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m with you on the profiling thing. I’ve never been really interested in that. For me it’s mostly because, as I understand it, a profile is a “model” of the amp at one setting then estimating the the way it reacts to control changes. Modeling is modeling the whole thing, controls and all. That and the Kemper is ugly as fuck. Never felt the need to tone match on the Axe FX since it has more than enough amps as it is.


 Everyone raves on the Kemper (and it is fugly), but when I've test driven one, I hate that I can't just EQ it like an amp. The EQ is like a channel strip on a mixer, and if you adjust more than a little bit, it sound bad. I don't wanna dig through 1000 profiles to find one that is 99% there for EQ when I in Helix/AFX I can just grab the model that has the gain structure I want and turn some knobs to get the tone. Definitely curious to see whats all involved and how much it's gonna cost when the official press release comes.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> Evigan Xiao just got demoted to coffee duty...
> 
> But yea, guess it's as expected. Kinda lame to lead out in the headline with "powered by machine learning" like ML is absent from other company's approaches, but looks like a cool product for those otherwise considering Line6 and with more progressive music tastes. I was personally hoping for some more knobs and immediacy to controlling parameters in an easy way, but maybe I'm in a minority. I guess we have to brace for the youtuber demo shitstorm that's about to break?



The AI marketing hype for non-technical people is real


----------



## narad

technomancer said:


> The AI marketing hype for non-technical people is real



I'll step back a little bit on my disdain since at that point in time the profiling aspect hadn't been announced, but still, the company slogan is "algorithmically perfect" and their teaser slogan was "biomimetic" -- I expect to be cringing a lot over the next day of coverage. Appreciate the guys and the products, hate the marketing.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

One issue. If the thing breaks, you have to send it back to Finland?


----------



## mikah912

MASS DEFECT said:


> One issue. If the thing breaks, you have to send ot back to Finland?



One of many, many big questions that need to be answered. First-gen products with a lot of advanced, not-used-before tech on them = lots of warranty service.


----------



## Metropolis

MASS DEFECT said:


> One issue. If the thing breaks, you have to send it back to Finland?



How effortless that would be for once  I hope they have worked different distributions to do warranty service.


----------



## cardinal

I dunno how Darkglass stuff is serviced, but it this may use a similar network. I didn't know until now that Neural was a Doug Castro thing.

I'm getting more and more interested in a Kemper, so this is pretty interesting to me. I have a few amps now that I'd like profiled just so that I can easily transport things and don't always have to lug out and fire up expensive and pretty old tube amps. So the EQ implementation of the Kemper is no big deal: I would have already profiled the amp the way I want it.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

MASS DEFECT said:


> One issue. If the thing breaks, you have to send ot back to Finland?



In the EU we deal with G66 for buying Fractal Products. They take care of warranty so I'm sure there will be somewhere in the states doing the same.


----------



## Sumsar

This kinda remind me of the whole Bias-fx / jamup thing. Start with a purely digital product, make a ton of high profile marketing with it, then down the line when you are a better established company put out a hardware version. What actually happened with the Bias-fx head unit? There where a lot of demos some years ago, but then I have not heard about that or the company since. Was it that bad that the company went under? I have never ever seen anyone use it in real life or in demos, where they were not paid to play the thing.

Seems Neural-DSP is at the top of the hypetrain foodchain, so they better make as much many while the hype is there.

The VST demos I have heard sound cool and all, but no way I am getting into products like these, that for certain are going to be hopelessly outdated in 5 years. I guess hardware have a bit longer lifespan than plugins, but not by much, unless they actually manage to pull a Kemper and use the same hardware for 10 years?


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I was hoping you could load the Archetypes in it. But no? I hope the rotary footswitches work as well as the AX8's dedicated amp controls. Many hated those things but for me, it was one of the biggest selling points of that product. I'm not stoked with profilers. Seems like there's great(er) option paralysis and once you profiled them, you can't go past certain settings and knob positions and risk sounding totally off. 

Buuut, it's still interesting.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Sumsar said:


> This kinda remind me of the whole Bias-fx / jamup thing. Start with a purely digital product, make a ton of high profile marketing with it, then down the line when you are a better established company put out a hardware version. What actually happened with the Bias-fx head unit? There where a lot of demos some years ago, but then I have not heard about that or the company since. Was it that bad that the company went under? I have never ever seen anyone use it in real life or in demos, where they were not paid to play the thing.
> 
> Seems Neural-DSP is at the top of the hypetrain foodchain, so they better make as much many while the hype is there.
> 
> The VST demos I have heard sound cool and all, but no way I am getting into products like these, that for certain are going to be hopelessly outdated in 5 years. I guess hardware have a bit longer lifespan than plugins, but not by much, unless they actually manage to pull a Kemper and use the same hardware for 10 years?


I love Nolly and Plini Plugins. They are the first ones that sound and feel right. With little-to-no tweaking. If this unit has them built in - it is good enough for me.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Sumsar said:


> This kinda remind me of the whole Bias-fx / jamup thing. Start with a purely digital product, make a ton of high profile marketing with it, then down the line when you are a better established company put out a hardware version. What actually happened with the Bias-fx head unit? There where a lot of demos some years ago, but then I have not heard about that or the company since. Was it that bad that the company went under? I have never ever seen anyone use it in real life or in demos, where they were not paid to play the thing.
> 
> Seems Neural-DSP is at the top of the hypetrain foodchain, so they better make as much many while the hype is there.
> 
> The VST demos I have heard sound cool and all, but no way I am getting into products like these, that for certain are going to be hopelessly outdated in 5 years. I guess hardware have a bit longer lifespan than plugins, but not by much, unless they actually manage to pull a Kemper and use the same hardware for 10 years?



Bias is still around. In fact they're about to release a little budget combo amp.


----------



## Lifestalker

I'm loving the layout and what this unit SEEMS to be.

With the missing knobs for tweaking eq/paremeters, it would be amazing for something of this nature to have bluetooth implementation via mobile/pc. It's just a dream, but would make tweaking much more enjoyable for me. Won't keep me from purchasing.


----------



## Lifestalker

Wolfhorsky said:


> I love Nolly and Plini Plugins. They are the first ones that sound and feel right. With little-to-no tweaking. If this unit has them built in - it is good enough form me.



At the rumored price point, I would hope the Quad Cortex comes with all Neural DSP models/suites right out of the box.


----------



## spudmunkey

Lifestalker said:


> I'm loving the layout and what this unit SEEMS to be.
> 
> With the missing knobs for tweaking eq/paremeters, it would be amazing for something of this nature to have bluetooth implementation via mobile/pc. It's just a dream, but would make tweaking much more enjoyable for me. Won't keep me from purchasing.



I've read a rumor that there's some aspect of the switches that can act as a "knob". I'm not exactly sure how that would work, though, and can't seem to find the post where I read someone mentioning it (or remember their exact verbiage).


----------



## technomancer

spudmunkey said:


> I've read a rumor that there's some aspect of the switches that can act as a "knob". I'm not exactly sure how that would work, though, and can't seem to find the post where I read someone mentioning it (or remember their exact verbiage).



It's from the announcement article posted earlier "proprietary rotary footswitch controls for ease of operation". Sounds like it's a pot with a momentary footswitch. It's a neat idea but a bit worrying given the track record of push / push pot reliability


----------



## Metropolis

Sumsar said:


> This kinda remind me of the whole Bias-fx / jamup thing. Start with a purely digital product, make a ton of high profile marketing with it, then down the line when you are a better established company put out a hardware version. What actually happened with the Bias-fx head unit? There where a lot of demos some years ago, but then I have not heard about that or the company since. Was it that bad that the company went under? I have never ever seen anyone use it in real life or in demos, where they were not paid to play the thing.
> 
> Seems Neural-DSP is at the top of the hypetrain foodchain, so they better make as much many while the hype is there.
> 
> The VST demos I have heard sound cool and all, but no way I am getting into products like these, that for certain are going to be hopelessly outdated in 5 years. I guess hardware have a bit longer lifespan than plugins, but not by much, unless they actually manage to pull a Kemper and use the same hardware for 10 years?



Difference is that Positive Grid never managed to get out a really good sounding product and everyone just ditched them after demoing. They're still around though. 

If this Quad Cortex succeeds in every aspect then I don't really see them to need that kind of hype anymore. Which means they've proven to deliver a great product every time, and maybe be in the top of amp modeling with Fractal Audio and Kemper.

Third that is one thing to consider when buying amp modeling products. But for example I've enjoyed playing Nameless just as much or even more than many real amps.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Metropolis said:


> Difference is that Positive Grid never managed to get out a really good sounding product and everyone just ditched them after demoing.


 I thought the BIAS head thing sounded decent, it was just waaaaaay overpriced for what it was. 

Those have gotta be some military spec rotary footswitches, lol. That seems like a bad idea to me, but I'm guessing they put in the effort to test them, considering how sturdy the Darkglass stuff seems to be.


----------



## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> Difference is that Positive Grid never managed to get out a really good sounding product and everyone just ditched them after demoing. They're still around though.



Well, there's also the fact that Bias was never as well-regarded or well-crafted as the Neural DSP plugins. And the fact that Positive Grid released every possible hardware configuration to sell EXCEPT for the one people actually really wanted (an all-in-one floor modeler like the Quad Cortex). And the fact that a lot of their stuff still has bugs that have yet to be addressed. And the fact that they just outright abandon products sometimes. And......


----------



## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> Well, there's also the fact that Bias was never as well-regarded or well-crafted as the Neural DSP plugins. And the fact that Positive Grid released every possible hardware configuration to sell EXCEPT for the one people actually really wanted (an all-in-one floor modeler like the Quad Cortex). And the fact that a lot of their stuff still has bugs that have yet to be addressed. And the fact that they just outright abandon products sometimes. And......



I also think Bias products were trying a bit too much to nail everything and failed in many areas because of that. Neural DSP is well crafted in design and sound in a simple low key way, they have done single concept well to this point in only couple of years.


----------



## Backsnack

Last year I casually mentioned in another Neural DSP thread that they should make a compact modeler and call it the Neural Cortex.


----------



## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> I also think Bias products were trying a bit too much to nail everything.



I think the primary thing they were trying to "nail" was purchases and add-ons to those purchases. Reminded me of multi-level marketing where there was always another pricing tier or add-on pack or whatever.....


----------



## Boojakki




----------



## Metropolis

Backsnack said:


> Last year I casually mentioned in another Neural DSP thread that they should make a compact modeler and call it the Neural Cortex.



In November 26th 2019, are you a wizard?
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-dropped-archetype-abasi.339177/#post-5073413

Price is 1599,-€/$ about the same with Kemper Stage.


----------



## Lifestalker

Boojakki said:


>




Sold!! Say no more.


----------



## mikah912

See you sometime in 2020.....hopefully.


----------



## lurgar

Minor nitpick, but I don't like having even more devices with wifi on them. Hopefully the implementation is solid, I just feel like it's a potential security problem.


----------



## narad

lurgar said:


> Minor nitpick, but I don't like having even more devices with wifi on them. Hopefully the implementation is solid, I just feel like it's a potential security problem.



Damn hackers, stealing my tonez.


----------



## Lifestalker

lurgar said:


> Minor nitpick, but I don't like having even more devices with wifi on them. Hopefully the implementation is solid, I just feel like it's a potential security problem.



I’m 99.9% sure it’s not necessary to use WiFi as it has a usb (data) connection.


----------



## Lifestalker

Just placed my pre-order. Stoked to check this thing out.


----------



## Thaeon

With the ability to sample my own rig, this will be my backup/fly rig. If the modulation FX are good, I might dip out on my individual pedals and just use this guy.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Lifestalker said:


> Sold!! Say no more.



Same here, take my dang money!!!


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Lifestalker said:


> Just placed my pre-order. Stoked to check this thing out.



Link?


----------



## cwhitey2

I don't know if I'm sold yet. I wanted it to have a power amp 

The $200 pre order is tempting...but I just pre order the earthquaker sunn pedal


----------



## Metropolis

Soo tempted to do a pre-order. What I really like is the compact size and weight... it isn't like 5+ kg's, and it fits into a small pedalboard if needed.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

if the rig modeling is actually a step up from kemper/helix I might consider going back to a digital setup. Regardless I have very high expectations that this thing will kick ass given how good their plugins are.


----------



## Boojakki

Hm.... From the FAQ:

"Do Neural DSP plugins come with QC?
Not by default as of now, but we will send a free plugin update in a Cortex compatible format to everyone who owns our plugins so they can be loaded onto the device."

So the existing plugins are not included, you have to pay the extra money...


----------



## MASS DEFECT

> We are collaborating with some of the best producers and sound designers to provide an ever-growing collection of free rig captures in addition to our full-circuit models.



Hmmmm, so the previous (plini, abasi, nameless) amp models will be pre-installed?


----------



## Deadpool_25

GAS Trigger: Pulled.


----------



## Boojakki

MASS DEFECT said:


> Hmmmm, so the previous (plini, abasi, nameless) amp models will be pre-installed?



Unfortunately: No. See my above message...

I'm gassing hard, as most of you... But will not pull the trigger... yet... If the plugins (Nolly, Plini, Abasi, Darkglass...) were included, it would be a nobrainer, though!


----------



## lurgar

narad said:


> Damn hackers, stealing my tonez.



I get that it's highly unlikely to ever be a problem, I just get leery at putting wifi and connecting everything to the internet.


----------



## Flemmigan

Official page for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.
https://neuraldsp.com/quad-cortex
Honestly sounds like one of the coolest things I've heard of. Probably gonna wait it out and see how the first gen kinks play out though.



MASS DEFECT said:


> Hmmmm, so the previous (plini, abasi, nameless) amp models will be pre-installed?



Looks like they're going to enable them to be loaded on later, if you've bought them.
"Do Neural DSP plugins come with QC?
Not by default as of now, but we will send a free plugin update in a Cortex compatible format to everyone who owns our plugins so they can be loaded onto the device."


----------



## Lifestalker

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Link?



https://neuraldsp.com/quad-cortex/


----------



## Backsnack

Metropolis said:


> In November 26th 2019, are you a wizard?
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-dropped-archetype-abasi.339177/#post-5073413
> 
> Price is 1599,-€/$ about the same with Kemper Stage.


Their brand name just lends itself to that. Easy pickings.


----------



## GunpointMetal

So, you have to buy the plugins, then load them into the pedal (maybe, probably, but sometime in the future)? No thanks. Paid DLC for guitar hardware should not be thing anymore on devices over $1k.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

So it’s going to have regular amp emulations of the 5150, Mesa, Marshall etc like other modellers? but you will have to pay extra for add-ons like the fortin and archetype which will work in the future but won’t be included as a free update. That’s kind of disappointing but that depends on the quality of the on board sims. Paying for the unit and then paying $100+ for add on packs has me a bit wary. 



narad said:


> Damn hackers, stealing my tonez.



Did the tone I dialled in the night before really sound this bad or were my settings hacked.


----------



## narad

GunpointMetal said:


> So, you have to buy the plugins, then load them into the pedal (maybe, probably, but sometime in the future)? No thanks. Paid DLC for guitar hardware should not be thing anymore on devices over $1k.



Just Neural Capture the plug-in demo  It should at least do a decent job at modeling itself.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Very interesting. But I'll wait maybe a year after the release. Once it has made the gigging rounds and the youtube hype is done. Looking at the website, it looks and sounds like it is very well made, and the engineers and musicians who worked with neural, really thought of the gigging musician and the step-up from helix workflow. The workflow seems so well thought out and the only thing that is missing is alexa-type voice commands lol. 

Even though that they market the screen as having gorilla glass and the switches as "unbreakable", in reality, nothing is unbreakable. That screen is so near the switches and I feel like a guard bar should have been implemented between them.


----------



## ThisBrokenMachine

Touchscreens in live environment could be and issue, imho


----------



## Lifestalker

Boojakki said:


> Unfortunately: No. See my above message...
> 
> I'm gassing hard, as most of you... But will not pull the trigger... yet... If the plugins (Nolly, Plini, Abasi, Darkglass...) were included, it would be a nobrainer, though!



I would say don’t give up just yet, it’s not included by default (yet). So there’s still some hope. Would be nice if they let those who pre-order choose one or two to be included. Either way, I ordered it!


----------



## Lifestalker

ThisBrokenMachine said:


> Touchscreens in live environment could be and issue, imho



There’s probably some sort of option to lock it while performing. If not, that would be a cool feature.


----------



## Crundles

Interesting.

More competition in the modelling market is always welcome; bit weird that the plugins don't come pre-installed for the price, but whatever. Not sure how the SHARC DSP compares to whatever the Axe FX III is using. On the other hand, Kemper has been coasting on a comparatively primordial chip for 10 years, and people keep arguing if it's the best or only the second best sounding modeller.

All in all, really curious to hear at least some youtube comparisons, and a ton more curious to see how other companies react.

The marketing is hilarious though. _*biomimetic AI technology*_

Mate velcro is biomimetic, u wot


----------



## MASS DEFECT

narad said:


> Damn hackers, stealing my tonez.



In theory, you can definitely hijack the unit via wifi and change someone else's setting during a gig. Say, you hate a Neural DSP shill playing at NAMM...and boom...he suddenly plays through a neurally captured BC Rich 10w practice amp.


----------



## ThisBrokenMachine

Lifestalker said:


> There’s probably some sort of option to lock it while performing. If not, that would be a cool feature.



Yeah, I hope this


----------



## Vegetta

I was hoping it would be a bit cheaper and simpler and it would include the existing plugins, I may or may not pre-order it - waffling hard....


----------



## Frostbite

I guess I'm not seeing that big of an issue with them not including the plugins. You bought the plugins expecting it to work just on your computer and nothing more. IMO it's cool that they're making it compatible and for free. Especially when there's already 50 amps on the thing.


----------



## LeftOurEyes

Seems overpriced to me. I'll probably be buy some cheap amps when people sell them to buy this thing though.


----------



## Lifestalker

GunpointMetal said:


> So, you have to buy the plugins, then load them into the pedal (maybe, probably, but sometime in the future)? No thanks. Paid DLC for guitar hardware should not be thing anymore on devices over $1k.



Are you sure you aren’t misunderstanding what’s being offered? There’s 50+ amps, 70+ effects and 1,000+ IRs.

If three or four suites aren’t included, it’s no arrow through the heart for me. I’m sure there will be generic versions of each. (Or maybe I’m wrong?) It would be a very cool addition.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Frostbite said:


> I guess I'm not seeing that big of an issue with them not including the plugins. You bought the plugins expecting it to work just on your computer and nothing more. IMO it's cool that they're making it compatible and for free. Especially when there's already 50 amps on the thing.


 I didn't buy any of the plugins, mostly because I figured they were coming out with hardware sometime in the near future that would have the plugins.



Lifestalker said:


> Are you sure you aren’t misunderstanding what’s being offered? There’s 50+ amps, 70+ effects and 1,000+ IRs.
> 
> If three or four suites aren’t included, it’s no arrow through the heart for me. I’m sure there will be generic versions of each. (Or maybe I’m wrong?) It would be a very cool addition.


 You're probably right in that the amps are "in there" just different, still seems like silly thing to do when you're known for the plugins, to not include them code-for-code in your hardware.


----------



## mikah912

GunpointMetal said:


> I didn't buy any of the plugins, mostly because I figured they were coming out with hardware sometime in the near future that would have the plugins.
> 
> You're probably right in that the amps are "in there" just different, still seems like silly thing to do when you're known for the plugins, to not include them code-for-code in your hardware.



I guess there will be overlap because there's clearly a 5150 in there...just not the Nolly 5150? I'm sure they'll have a Friedman in there, just not the Plini Friedman? And so on and so forth.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Frostbite said:


> I guess I'm not seeing that big of an issue with them not including the plugins. You bought the plugins expecting it to work just on your computer and nothing more. IMO it's cool that they're making it compatible and for free. Especially when there's already 50 amps on the thing.



It’s just a little strange when the company has made their reputation on these high quality plugins that people would love to use on a physical unit at home, practice or live. They will work on the unit but are paid add ons. People just expected them to include their own amp sims on an amp simulator.


----------



## laxu

ThisBrokenMachine said:


> Touchscreens in live environment could be and issue, imho



Only if you dip your fingers in your beer. They mention on the page that it has similar glass you would find on smartphones so it should be plenty durable.

Everything about the unit looks good to me. This is the level of UI I would expect on a modern modeler. 

I already have a Helix that does the job for me so I'm not gonna bite but I will be looking at reviews and videos when these ship.


----------



## Frostbite

Lorcan Ward said:


> It’s just a little strange when the company has made their reputation on these high quality plugins that people would love to use on a physical unit at home, practice or live. They will work on the unit but are paid add ons. People just expected them to include their own amp sims on an amp simulator.


I feel like that's on people and not Neural. There was a lot of speculation and I think people got their hopes up for stuff that was never going to happen. It just seems silly to me to get mad about a feature not being in there that was never promised


----------



## StevenC

And the fact that all the DLC comes to almost €600.


----------



## Frostbite

GunpointMetal said:


> I didn't buy any of the plugins, mostly because I figured they were coming out with hardware sometime in the near future that would have the plugins.


So you assumed something that ended up being wrong and was never promised and now you're not happy about it? That just seems silly to me IMO


----------



## Spinedriver

It's funny how they're calling it the most powerful guitar modeller on the planet, yet the only inputs are 2 XLR jacks.







So add, 1/4" to XLR adapters to the cost.... For $1,600 US, you'd think you would be able to use a regular guitar cable with it.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Frostbite said:


> I feel like that's on people and not Neural. There was a lot of speculation and I think people got their hopes up for stuff that was never going to happen. It just seems silly to me to get mad about a feature not being in there that was never promised



I’m not sure you understand where everyone is coming from. The feature is in there, the unit can load the plugins and will load the plugins. That’s why people are wondering why they aren’t including their own amp sims. 

And of course nothing was promised. This was only teased a few days ago with no leaks or public build up whatsoever. People have only known about it for 2 hours. How could things have been promised?


----------



## GunpointMetal

Frostbite said:


> So you assumed something that ended up being wrong and was never promised and now you're not happy about it? That just seems silly to me IMO


 I'm not mad, it already costs more than I'm willing to pay for a floorboard that doesn't even have it's own EXP pedal. I use like 1/3 of the capabilities of the Helix, but I do use my EXP all the time, for multiple things, so this plus an EXP pedal (probably two, depending on how the switching is set up) means it costs more than Helix for a bunch of features I won't personally use. But, this .... 


Lorcan Ward said:


> It’s just a little strange when the company has made their reputation on these high quality plugins that people would love to use on a physical unit at home, practice or live. They will work on the unit but are paid add ons. People just expected them to include their own amp sims on an amp simulator.


I don't see why it's silly to think that they would include their own plugin amps in their own hardware. I'm not the market for this, based on the current information/pricing. But it's still a really cool product, and I always like seeing companies expanding the devices in this arena, because we all benefit come next gen or down-the-road updates.


----------



## SamSam

It's not dlc, it's another product they sell. That's like going to buy and Golf and being pissed off they didn't include a Polo.

They would cannibalize their own business if they included it all because no one will invest in the plugins anymore and people who have already purchased a plugin (or more) will be pissed that they are getting a raw deal compared to new adaptors. 

It makes no sense to let down loyal customers in favour of new ones. By allowing current owners to use their plugins in this they are rewarding current customers for their previous purchases. Which makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Spinedriver said:


> It's funny how they're calling it the most powerful guitar modeller on the planet, yet the only inputs are 2 XLR jacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So add, 1/4" to XLR adapters to the cost.... For $1,600 US, you'd think you would be able to use a regular guitar cable with it.




wait....there's no 1/4" input? That's gotta be a mistake.


----------



## bmth4111

Exactly what I was looking for. Just wish some of the already released plugins came with the unit! I agree having a bar protecting the screen would have been a smart addition. Surprised no expression pedal but that's a easy addition. The form factor is great even tho a rack would have been better for me.


----------



## Thaeon

I'm not opposed to a package deal that includes the sims. Based on the hardware processing power, the unit is worth the price of entry. If the included 50 amps are of the same quality as the software suites they've released so far, this is one hell of a product and I'm sure it sounds every bit as impressive as the software. The other side of this is the Archetype and Fortin based stuff is probably licensing agreements with Fortin, Nolly, Plini, and Tosin. For each sale, there's probably a pay out to each involved name. Neural lured you in with those products, and then gives you this. I'm sure that as this is their exclusive baby, they want to keep licensing to those specific people out of it. I would be upset if the tones I'd based things off of weren't available on the floor unit at all.


----------



## GunpointMetal

SamSam said:


> It's not dlc, it's another product they sell. That's like going to buy and Golf and being pissed off they didn't include a Polo.


 No, it's like buying an amp modeler from a software company and being confused why they didn't include their own software.



SamSam said:


> They would cannibalize their own business if they included it all because no one will invest in the plugins anymore and people who have already purchased a plugin (or more) will be pissed that they are getting a raw deal compared to new adaptors.


 No, because the plugins are priced individually, well, well, well below the cost of the hardware....



SamSam said:


> It makes no sense to let down loyal customers in favour of new ones. By allowing current owners to use their plugins in this they are rewarding current customers for their previous purchases. Which makes perfect sense to me.


 So if you bought a $150 software suite, and then someone spend $1500 and got that software suite, you'd feel ripped off?


----------



## Lifestalker

Frostbite said:


> I feel like that's on people and not Neural. There was a lot of speculation and I think people got their hopes up for stuff that was never going to happen. It just seems silly to me to get mad about a feature not being in there that was never promised



Agreed! Would be super cool to have them included, but I don’t feel it’s a requirement. It’s like getting mad at Fractal for selling their IR’s. Trying to please everyone is impossible.


----------



## mikah912

GunpointMetal said:


> wait....there's no 1/4" input? That's gotta be a mistake.





Spinedriver said:


> It's funny how they're calling it the most powerful guitar modeller on the planet, yet the only inputs are 2 XLR jacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So add, 1/4" to XLR adapters to the cost.... For $1,600 US, you'd think you would be able to use a regular guitar cable with it.



It appears that the Input 1 and 2 also accept TS or 1/4" plugs.


----------



## Frostbite

Lorcan Ward said:


> I’m not sure you understand where everyone is coming from. The feature is in there, the unit can load the plugins and will load the plugins. That’s why people are wondering why they aren’t including their own amp sims.
> 
> And of course nothing was promised. This was only teased a few days ago with no leaks or public build up whatsoever. People have only known about it for 2 hours. How could things have been promised?


I understand exactly where people are coming from. I just don't see it as a big deal. If you bought the plugins, you got the plugins.


----------



## GunpointMetal

I see where this is going....smaller units like "Cortex Plini", "Cortex Nolly".....


----------



## Beheroth

doug castro is the elon musk of music gear


----------



## StevenC

It's like if Diezel put out the VHX but it didn't have a VH4 channel, just a 5150.


----------



## SamSam

GunpointMetal said:


> No, it's like buying an amp modeler from a software company and being confused why they didn't include their own software.
> 
> No, because the plugins are priced individually, well, well, well below the cost of the hardware....
> 
> So if you bought a $150 software suite, and then someone spend $1500 and got that software suite, you'd feel ripped off?



If my potential cost for the entire set of products (hardware included) is 2100 and someone else is getting the same for 1500, less than a year after they were released I could completely understand why someone would be upset.

To clarify; I own one piece of their software (nameless) and I have preordered the floor unit. In my case it would be great to include all of their plugins because, obviously it would benefit me. 

But most of their plugins are very new and therefore, to me, it makes sense why they would exclude it.

Honestly I think it would be more realistic for them to include the amp/pedal suites, but exclude the artist sets. No modern modeller should be missing a darkglass sim in 2020. I think that is a fair compromise. 

Again to reiterate; I would personally benefit from their inclusion (greatly), but I understand why, at this point in time they would exclude them.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Maybe there’s a big plug-in suite to load everything that’s on this and their other plug-ins coming in 2021 and that’s why they aren’t included since you’d need to buy each one separately to use in it. That or licensing deals since an outside artist or manufacturer is involved with all the plug-ins. 

So back to the unit if this has the profiling capabilities of the Kemper with the horsepower, effects and tweak ability of the axe-Fx then it will be a game changer.


----------



## Lifestalker

Spinedriver said:


> It's funny how they're calling it the most powerful guitar modeller on the planet, yet the only inputs are 2 XLR jacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So add, 1/4" to XLR adapters to the cost.... For $1,600 US, you'd think you would be able to use a regular guitar cable with it.



Directly from the Neural DSP website. 1/4" cable is all that's needed, if that's what you want.


----------



## GunpointMetal

That makes a lot more sense for the inputs. Picture must be a mockup and they couldn't find a combo jack, lol.


----------



## SamSam

As soon as I read we can load our plugins into it I preordered. The nameless suite is my go to right for low tunings and the only one I've used that I've been happy with for my eight string guitars. I am considering this and the fm3 and plan to have it in a rack box anyway so I not too worried about the switching (for now).


----------



## sakeido

MASS DEFECT said:


> In theory, you can definitely hijack the unit via wifi and change someone else's setting during a gig. Say, you hate a Neural DSP shill playing at NAMM...and boom...he suddenly plays through a neurally captured BC Rich 10w practice amp.



nah dude you add a pitch shifter block and set it to +7%


----------



## Metropolis

Combo jacks included and no dlc's, ok? If I get this, then Nameless is going right in  What I'm disappointed is lack of on/off button. Not sure about touch screens in these kind of devices, but maybe it's the future.


----------



## Lifestalker

Metropolis said:


> Combo jacks included and no dlc's, ok? If I get this, then Nameless is going right in  What I'm disappointed is lack of on/off button. Not sure about touch screens in these kind of devices, but maybe it's the future.



The lack of power button surprised me. Since it's an easy addition, mine will be getting the necessary mod. lol


----------



## Spinedriver

Lifestalker said:


> Directly from the Neural DSP website. 1/4" cable is all that's needed, if that's what you want.



Now those would make a lot more sense. The Steinberg UR22 I have uses those connectors as well. I just kinda skimmed over that one and saw the 'mock up' picture. As they say, the devil really is in the details.


----------



## technomancer

I'm impressed we made it a couple posts before people started whining about price / content


----------



## Wolfhorsky

This might be incredible: Nolly on right with its own delay repeats and Plini on left with other delay. Ooo I will wait for demos to hear it. I am 90% sure I will buy it.


----------



## myrtorp

If I didnt already have Helix I would be very interested.


----------



## GunpointMetal

technomancer said:


> I'm impressed we made it a couple posts before people started whining about price / content


I'm impressed we made it several pages before people's contentions about a product that isn't even available yet were labeled as "mad" or "whining".


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Dang, shipping is planned on Sept. OMG.


----------



## Frostbite

GunpointMetal said:


> I'm impressed we made it several pages before people's contentions about a product that isn't even available yet were labeled as "mad" or "whining".


It's almost like a forum is meant for discussion...


----------



## ramses

That was a very nice promo video.

Nitpicking here ... anyone else missing s/pidf?


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Reading the Fractal FM3 forums in response to this is hillarious!


----------



## Lifestalker

MASS DEFECT said:


> Reading the Fractal FM3 forums in response to this is hillarious!


 
On my way now! Secretly some of them will purchase this unit. It’s a cult of pure superiority complex over there! lol I love Axe Fx, don’t get me wrong. How dare a company come along and challenge it.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

It’s probably war over in the Kemper forum.

The Fractal FM3 isn’t out yet?


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Is there any info in terms of model quality (equal or improved compared to their plugins)? 

To the people who pre-ordered, don’t you wanna hear it before paying?


----------



## Lifestalker

Just read over at the fractal forum that ML Sound Lab was hired to create the cab IR’s. Good stuff.


----------



## Lifestalker

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Is there any info in terms of model quality (equal or improved compared to their plugins)?
> 
> To the people who pre-ordered, don’t you wanna hear it before paying?



There will be demos during and after NAMM. Pre-order spot is fully refundable.


----------



## cyb

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Is there any info in terms of model quality (equal or improved compared to their plugins)?
> 
> To the people who pre-ordered, don’t you wanna hear it before paying?



I'm fully confident that it will be awesome based on their VSTs. If it were a brand new company with no previous products to judge, I definitely would NOT have pre-ordered.


----------



## oracles

Lorcan Ward said:


> The Fractal FM3 isn’t out yet?



Nope, no word on a release date either.


----------



## MetalDaze

Keep checking the FAQ. It’s grown a bunch since I first viewed it.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Lorcan Ward said:


> It’s probably war over in the Kemper forum.
> 
> The Fractal FM3 isn’t out yet?



The FM3 was supposed to ship out December but got delayed because of some "production" issues.


----------



## DC23

MASS DEFECT said:


> The FM3 was supposed to ship out December but got delayed because of some "production" issues.



I wanted to log the journey that has been the FM3 haha:

April -> Estimated shipping in two months
July -> Estimated shipping by August / September
September / October -> Estimated shipping Q4
Mid-December -> "Supposed to be next week but it's Christmas"
January -> SILENCE


----------



## Doug Castro

Spinedriver said:


> It's funny how they're calling it the most powerful guitar modeller on the planet, yet the only inputs are 2 XLR jacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So add, 1/4" to XLR adapters to the cost.... For $1,600 US, you'd think you would be able to use a regular guitar cable with it.




My render guy messed that one up (we've all been working 90 hour weeks for a few weeks straight now). We've corrected them. Inputs 1 and 2 are combo jacks: XLR for mic (we have high-quality preamps and phantom power supply), and TRS for instrument cables.

The levels, sensitivity, and impedance can be adjusted from the touch screen.

If you look at the video, which was done with an actual unit, you'll see the right jacks.

Kind regards,
D.


----------



## c7spheres

technomancer said:


> I'm impressed we made it a couple posts before people started whining about price / content



OH mY GOD That IS ExPENSIVE! FUnk That. At least there's more competition now.


----------



## DudeManBrother

Lorcan Ward said:


> It’s probably war over in the Kemper forum.
> 
> The Fractal FM3 isn’t out yet?


Surprisingly nobody seems to care over on the Kemper forum. One guy preordered and a few think it looks cool, one guy thinks it looks like a Helix. I honestly thought there’d be more discussion about it too.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

DudeManBrother said:


> Surprisingly nobody seems to care over on the Kemper forum. One guy preordered and a few think it looks cool, one guy thinks it looks like a Helix. I honestly thought there’d be more discussion about it too.



Because hardcore Kemper fans are still in 2012.


----------



## Spinedriver

Doug Castro said:


> My render guy messed that one up (we've all been working 90 hour weeks for a few weeks straight now). We've corrected them. Inputs 1 and 2 are combo jacks: XLR for mic (we have high-quality preamps and phantom power supply), and TRS for instrument cables.
> 
> The levels, sensitivity, and impedance can be adjusted from the touch screen.
> 
> If you look at the video, which was done with an actual unit, you'll see the right jacks.
> 
> Kind regards,
> D.



I hear ya. I just saw the picture with the XLR inputs and though it was kind of odd. Maybe it was a new kind of hybrid connector I wasn't aware of, who knows. lol... 
I can only imagine the kind of pressure you guys are under trying to give information and also try to hold stuff back (that's still kind of up in the air) at the same time. It's going to be a VERY interesting NAMM for you guys this year because it looks like the unit will be one of the most talked about pieces of the whole convention.


----------



## DjentleVibes

I don't think anyone has mentioned that you can run 4 INSTRUMENTS AT ONCE through this thing. I believe I read the FX send inputs also work as instrument inputs to have 4 at once. This could be a total gamechanger for bands performing live.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

DjentleVibes said:


> I don't think anyone has mentioned that you can run 4 INSTRUMENTS AT ONCE through this thing. I believe I read the FX send inputs also work as instrument inputs to have 4 at once. This could be a total gamechanger for bands performing live.


Yes. Imagine. You play solo and press one button to go louder and simultaneously You make the other guitar quiter  And mute the vocalist. Perferct.


----------



## Doug Castro

Wolfhorsky said:


> Yes. Imagine. You play solo and press one button to go louder and simultaneously You make the other guitar quiter  And mute the vocalist. Perferct.



That can be easily implemented!


----------



## DC23

Doug Castro said:


> That can be easily implemented!


Sense of humor on this one


----------



## Mathemagician

So this thing is basically what Line6 WANTED to do with the helix initially? Sell hardware with “tone pack” upgrades as “DLC” on an ongoing basis.

Yeah there’s a reason I went with the existing Helix. Fuuuuuck that. At that point if you want “everything” you’re well above Axe FX prices.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Mathemagician said:


> So this thing is basically what Line6 WANTED to do with the helix initially? Sell hardware with “tone pack” upgrades as “DLC” on an ongoing basis.
> 
> Yeah there’s a reason I went with the existing Helix. Fuuuuuck that. At that point if you want “everything” you’re well above Axe FX prices.


they never said the updates were going to be paid, don't know where you got that idea


----------



## Mathemagician

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Is there any info in terms of model quality (equal or improved compared to their plugins)?
> 
> To the people who pre-ordered, don’t you wanna hear it before paying?



They want a low serial number.


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> they never said the updates were going to be paid, don't know where you got that idea



He's referring to not getting the current plugins for free with the unit.


----------



## Spinedriver

Mathemagician said:


> So this thing is basically what Line6 WANTED to do with the helix initially? Sell hardware with “tone pack” upgrades as “DLC” on an ongoing basis.
> 
> Yeah there’s a reason I went with the existing Helix. Fuuuuuck that. At that point if you want “everything” you’re well above Axe FX prices.



I don't know how many people bought a Pod XT(L) when they first came out but there were 3 seperate "add-on" packs to buy. The Metal pack (which was by far the most popular), the Classic amps and Bass Pack which were all $49-$99 a pop. They took a LOT of heat for that one and so much so that they later released the "X3" which was just an XT with a few tweaks like running 2 amps at one and they also included all of the expansion packs.

I think it was Digitech that released the iStomp pedal a few years ago that used the 'just buy the effects you want' model and it pretty much tanked.

As for the 'plugins', who's to say that the amps that come with the unit couldn't be dialed in to sound exactly like the amps in the Archetype packs ?


----------



## Backsnack

Metropolis said:


> In November 26th 2019, are you a wizard?
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-dropped-archetype-abasi.339177/#post-5073413
> 
> Price is 1599,-€/$ about the same with Kemper Stage.


I'm sure it's high quality, and the capture technology is likely intricate.

Where it will shine over the Kemper is in ease of use/ease of good results. The capture process with the Kemper seems fairly involved, especially with the cabinet capturing, it's only as good as your ability to mic and cab and the quality of mics you're using.


----------



## zenonshandro

_i'M bUyInG tHiS $1,600 uSd UnIt WhIcH c0mEs WiTh 50+ AmPs AnD i DoN't GeT tHe $855 UsD w0rTh 0f SpEcIaLtY pLuGinNs _
_pReViOuSlY dEvEl0pEd f0r FrEe? _

I like the idea of getting more for my money but I wouldn't expect that little value to be placed on the unit. $745 by that deduction?

Glad to hear that previous plugins will be able to integrate, I think that's a no-brainer. Hopefully sooner than later! Excited, no doubt.


----------



## Lifestalker

zenonshandro said:


> _i'M bUyInG tHiS $1,600 uSd UnIt WhIcH c0mEs WiTh 50+ AmPs AnD i DoN't GeT tHe $855 UsD w0rTh 0f SpEcIaLtY pLuGinNs _
> _pReViOuSlY dEvEl0pEd f0r FrEe? _
> 
> I like the idea of getting more for my money but I wouldn't expect that little value to be placed on the unit. $745 by that deduction?
> 
> Glad to hear that previous plugins will be able to integrate, I think that's a no-brainer. Hopefully sooner than later! Excited, no doubt.



Exactly. The youth of today feel entitled to everything or nothing. Even if the unit was $1,000, the same demands/requests would be made. I truly don't understand the butt hurt over some signature suites; it's hilarious. I do think it'd be cool of Neural to offer one suite (of the consumers choice) to those who pre-order. However, there will be plenty of ways to recreate those sounds as time goes on. There will be more amps and effects added (for free). Plus what the users are willing to share through Neural Capture.

This unit is a huge winner from what I can tell. I've no regrets about placing my order. Can't wait for an in-depth review.


----------



## zenonshandro

Lifestalker said:


> This unit is a huge winner from what I can tell. I've no regrets about placing my order. Can't wait for an in-depth review.



Same here. Congrats on being an early investor / pre-order boi. I can see myself with this eventually when next guitar project starts playing live. Please keep us updated when you get your unit!


----------



## ryanougrad

Finally broke down and just bought a Kemper Stage and now this is announced. Has built in interface. Ugh. Might hop on the pre-order. Looks really good on paper. Love to hear some demos.


----------



## Backsnack

@Doug Castro

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-dropped-archetype-abasi.339177/#post-5073413

Since you guys are clearly using the name (and a couple of the features) of the product I invented before your official launch, I will take payment in one free Quad Cortex to call it fair.


----------



## Backsnack

Frostbite said:


> I guess I'm not seeing that big of an issue with them not including the plugins. You bought the plugins expecting it to work just on your computer and nothing more. IMO it's cool that they're making it compatible and for free. Especially when there's already 50 amps on the thing.


Exactly

And as @SamSam mentioned, if they just threw in all their plugin suites for free, it would completely devalue and cannibalize their existing product line.


----------



## Backsnack

GunpointMetal said:


> Sounds like a cool product. Not buying a “full” floor modeler without an expression pedal, but a bunch of people are gonna be stoked.


IMO a Mission expression pedal is going to have a way better feel than most of what's included on most floor units anyways and is worth the extra $100.



technomancer said:


> It's from the announcement article posted earlier "proprietary rotary footswitch controls for ease of operation". Sounds like it's a pot with a momentary footswitch. It's a neat idea but a bit worrying given the track record of push / push pot reliability


Head over to Neural's instagram page and look at their latest story post. They get two dudes in their office, one on top of the other, standing and stomping on the switches for a while. That makes about 440 lbs. of dev team weight on them. They work fine after that.


----------



## AboutBlank

Lorcan Ward said:


> It’s just a little strange when the company has made their reputation on these high quality plugins that people would love to use on a physical unit at home, practice or live. They will work on the unit but are paid add ons. People just expected them to include their own amp sims on an amp simulator.



I obviously know nothing about the Neural contracts but to pay royalties to every company (Fortin) or artist (Nolly etc.) on a brand new product where just investements have been made I totally get the restraints or restriction for now...


----------



## olejason

DLC = no buy


----------



## Lorcan Ward

AboutBlank said:


> I obviously know nothing about the Neural contracts but to pay royalties to every company (Fortin) or artist (Nolly etc.) on a brand new product where just investements have been made I totally get the restraints or restriction for now...



That and they allow you to sell your plugin(s), you just have to pay an ilok transfer fee. It will be interesting if for example Jeff Loomis archetype comes out. Do you have to pay $120 for it or will it come as an update to users. 

On the fractal forum cliff chimed in and said it has about 1/3rd the power of the Axe-fx 3. The higher in power you go the more heat it will generate which isn’t ideal for floor units. It’s all down to the software then and how much power it needs to run. I can run several Neural’s plugins at once on my old iMac so I don’t think cpu power is going to be a problem.

Mikko(ML) said himself and Nolly created most of the IRs for this.


----------



## Lifestalker

olejason said:


> DLC = no buy



Where are you seeing DLC??? Lol


----------



## Francisco Cresp

Backsnack said:


> Head over to Neural's instagram page and look at their latest story post. They get two dudes in their office, one on top of the other, standing and stomping on the switches for a while. That makes about 440 lbs. of dev team weight on them. They work fine after that.




That's me and Doug. Merit for Doug for lifting 90Kg and be able to stomp!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Lifestalker said:


> Where are you seeing DLC??? Lol



Again you aren’t understanding this. Can you please read people’s posts properly. It’s been explained several times to you already. 

If you want to use neural dsp’s plug-ins in neural Dsp’s device you have to pay for the VST just to add them to the device. That poses the problem are future plugins that are usable on the device also charged at the $120ish cost. So anytime a really cool archetype comes out is it going to cost you. Then if third party developers are making amps for neural are they included in updates or will these also cost, hence the DLC remark because that’s exactly what it would be. 

Some clarification on this would be greatly appreciated where future plugins and third party involvement stands cost wise.


----------



## Francisco Cresp

Spinedriver said:


> It's funny how they're calling it the most powerful guitar modeller on the planet, yet the only inputs are 2 XLR jacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So add, 1/4" to XLR adapters to the cost.... For $1,600 US, you'd think you would be able to use a regular guitar cable with it.



[Clarified by Doug previously]

Im not sure if this was already clarified, but unfortunately we uploaded a wrong render for a while in the site, thats on us. Check again, the unit has 2 combo jacks on Input 1 and 2.

Sorry for the mistake.


----------



## noise in my mind

If I gigged with this thing would I have to worry about stuff getting sucked into the vent?


----------



## budda

Backsnack said:


> Head over to Neural's instagram page and look at their latest story post. They get two dudes in their office, one on top of the other, standing and stomping on the switches for a while. That makes about 440 lbs. of dev team weight on them. They work fine after that.



It's not the one time use though, it's the 90+ shows a year plus 1-3 rehearsals a week depending on your tour schedule.

Surprised at the lack of protection bar as well. It came in handy many times on my FX8.

I hope it does well and that we get killer modeller boards in the next few years. Having had the fx8 and the helix LT, it seems to be a good time for all-in-one units.


----------



## deigo

@Doug Castro
Can you please share more details about audio interface part? What is the round trip latency on 48000/128 for example? Just to understand if it's good for playing with plugins.


----------



## budda

noise in my mind said:


> If I gigged with this thing would I have to worry about stuff getting sucked into the vent?



Willing to bet the fan pushes air out, assuming it is for a fan.

If you play diy spaces, dust and debris should be on your mind. Just wipe it down after teardown.


----------



## Lifestalker

Lorcan Ward said:


> Again you aren’t understanding this. Can you please read people’s posts properly. It’s been explained several times to you already.
> 
> If you want to use neural dsp’s plug-ins in neural Dsp’s device you have to pay for the VST just to add them to the device. That poses the problem are future plugins that are usable on the device also charged at the $120ish cost. So anytime a really cool archetype comes out is it going to cost you. Then if third party developers are making amps for neural are they included in updates or will these also cost, hence the DLC remark because that’s exactly what it would be.
> 
> Some clarification on this would be greatly appreciated where future plugins and third party involvement stands cost wise.



I understand just fine. Why do you and everyone else feel entitled to the inclusion of signature standalone VSTs? Who says a compatible version for Quad Cortex will be $120? Maybe (I said maybe) Neural will factor that in and charge less for a non-standalone suite. As far as charging for signature presets, that's nothing new. People buy Axe Fx presets and cab IR's with minimal (if any) fuss. 

There will be future amps and effects added for free, permanently. So long as the hardware can handle it. I don't understand the obsession over the inclusion of the current plug-in lineup. It's pure entitlement to me.


----------



## Lifestalker

budda said:


> It's not the one time use though, it's the 90+ shows a year plus 1-3 rehearsals a week depending on your tour schedule.
> 
> Surprised at the lack of protection bar as well. It came in handy many times on my FX8.
> 
> I hope it does well and that we get killer modeller boards in the next few years. Having had the fx8 and the helix LT, it seems to be a good time for all-in-one units.



Nothing is indestructible. You all are setting impossible standards. Keep your unit/switches serviced and you should be just fine. Should the switches have issues, that's where the company takes the feedback and improves or changes functionality.


----------



## Spinedriver

Francisco Cresp said:


> [Clarified by Doug previously]
> 
> Im not sure if this was already clarified, but unfortunately we uploaded a wrong render for a while in the site, thats on us. Check again, the unit has 2 combo jacks on Input 1 and 2.
> 
> Sorry for the mistake.



Yeah, that's part of the perils of launching something new in time for NAMM when the actual product hasn't even been built yet. People get ahold of info (in this case a mock up) and more or less assume that this is what it's going to be when it hits the street.

It's partly my fault as well because there was a schematic/cutaway above it (that someone pointed out later) that showed the real connectors that I had just skimmed over it and not really paid much attention to, so I kinda of jumped the gun as well.

At least now we all know you CAN use a standard guitar cable with it as well as XLRs. 

Now it's just a matter of looking forward to all of the 'teaser' demos that'll be tricking out over the coming months until reviewers get their mitts on final production units.


----------



## budda

Lifestalker said:


> Nothing is indestructible. You all are setting impossible standards. Keep your unit/switches serviced and you should be just fine. Should the switches have issues, that's where the company takes the feedback and improves or changes functionality.



No, nothing is indestructible. But the bar is an easy choice for adding longevity.

What user service are you expecting people to do on the switches? Generally the only people opening up units like this is the warranty repair personnel.

I know this from experience, as I brought my FX8 to Fractal HQ to have some DOA LED's fixed.


----------



## StevenC

I mean, we're talking about the plug in market here. I get emails every week from Eventide about their 70% or 80% off sales for their plug ins.

Like if you bought a H9000 but they kept out all the H9 algorithms they sell as plug ins and made you spent a grand on that.


----------



## ThisBrokenMachine

laxu said:


> Only if you dip your fingers in your beer. They mention on the page that it has similar glass you would find on smartphones so it should be plenty durable.


I was thinking about sweat, saliva (when I growl I spit a lot), water, other liquids that could trigger the touchscreen if you forget to lock it..


----------



## budda

ThisBrokenMachine said:


> I was thinking about sweat, saliva (when I growl I spit a lot), water, other liquids that could trigger the touchscreen if you forget to lock it..



Liquids shouldn't trigger it, but over-stepping to press a button might get some funky results.


----------



## Avedas

budda said:


> Liquids shouldn't trigger it, but over-stepping to press a button might get some funky results.


If you play barefoot it could be an issue. Otherwise I really hope nobody's using a purely pressure-based touchpad in 2020.


----------



## budda

Avedas said:


> If you play barefoot it could be an issue. Otherwise I really hope nobody's using a purely pressure-based touchpad in 2020.



I guess we're about to find out


----------



## Lifestalker

ThisBrokenMachine said:


> I was thinking about sweat, saliva (when I growl I spit a lot), water, other liquids that could trigger the touchscreen if you forget to lock it..



To me, it would be the users fault for being forgetful. Maybe you want to reconsider if you sweat and spit that much. lol


----------



## Lifestalker

budda said:


> No, nothing is indestructible. But the bar is an easy choice for adding longevity.
> 
> What user service are you expecting people to do on the switches? Generally the only people opening up units like this is the warranty repair personnel.
> 
> I know this from experience, as I brought my FX8 to Fractal HQ to have some DOA LED's fixed.



When I had my Fractal MFC, I would open up the chassis and spray the switches with Deoxit D5 or CRC QD every 6 months or so. Very simple to do. That's all I meant as far as servicing. Beyond that, I'd prefer a stateside repair center to do their magic.


----------



## Spinedriver

budda said:


> Liquids shouldn't trigger it, but over-stepping to press a button might get some funky results.



Seeing how the footswitches are also going to function as the rotary knobs that adjust parameters, people will have to be careful not to twist their foot as they step down as it could possibly make a change to the volume/tone stack (or whatever parameter it is set for)as they are pushing down or releasing it as the case may be. 
It'll really depend on how 'grippy' the footswitches end up being.


----------



## budda

Spinedriver said:


> Seeing how the footswitches are also going to function as the rotary knobs that adjust parameters, people will have to be careful not to twist their foot as they step down as it could possibly make a change to the volume/tone stack (or whatever parameter it is set for)as they are pushing down or releasing it as the case may be.
> It'll really depend on how 'grippy' the footswitches end up being.



Im hoping there is a knob lock on it.

That was a lifesaver on my dd500.


----------



## Lifestalker

Spinedriver said:


> Seeing how the footswitches are also going to function as the rotary knobs that adjust parameters, people will have to be careful not to twist their foot as they step down as it could possibly make a change to the volume/tone stack (or whatever parameter it is set for)as they are pushing down or releasing it as the case may be.
> It'll really depend on how 'grippy' the footswitches end up being.



When performing, I'd be extremely surprised if there wasn't an option to disable the rotary switch functionality. I'm sure Doug thought about this before the unit was conceived.


----------



## SamSam

Pretty sure there will be an edit mode for the dials to be active and a lock mode or the like for performance.


----------



## zenonshandro

From the FAQ:

"Is it possible that stomping on the knobs could adjust a parameter?
*No. The software prevents accidental parameter tweaking when a switch is pressed*."


----------



## zenonshandro

Sounds like pressure commands override rotary commands?


----------



## Restarted

Dumdum question here, sorry to bring back the "plug-ins aren't on the Quad Cortex" issue but:
What is the benefit of having the plug-ins on the Quad Cortex? Is it just for having the interface and loading my saved presets? Or are those amp models and effects not available on the QC?


----------



## Crundles

I'd think the main benefit is having proven modelling included, so that the customer is sure they are getting some tried-and-tested sounds regardless of anything else.

I don't really mind either way - the thing I'm most curious of, is how the overall market and other developers will react.


----------



## Snarpaasi

They released a clip regarding the UI. 

Looks really good to me!


----------



## technomancer

Got to admit this looks damn cool. I was almost waiting for it to have voice control in the video


----------



## ramses

Earlier in this thread someone provided a reasonable excuse -- for people that already own Kemper/AxeFX. The excuse: This can be a great travel rig.

I'm liking that excuse, but not yet decided. What else can you guys come up with?


----------



## Tisca

In pre-order section


> Estimated Shipping: September 2020


----------



## MetalDaze

technomancer said:


> Got to admit this looks damn cool. I was almost waiting for it to have voice control in the video



Alexa, add more gain please


----------



## spudmunkey

Tisca said:


> In pre-order section



In the description of that YouTube vid, too.

In the line 6 Helix FB group, someone posted that they sold their Helix to buy it.


----------



## zenonshandro

YouTube:


----------



## Lifestalker

Crundles said:


> I'd think the main benefit is having proven modelling included, so that the customer is sure they are getting some tried-and-tested sounds regardless of anything else.
> 
> I don't really mind either way - the thing I'm most curious of, is how the overall market and other developers will react.




Since you already know their modeling is proven, it doesn't NEED to be included. By that acknowledgement, you know what you're getting into and there will be plenty of demos and reviews as the first batch prepares for shipment. There really is no benefit to having all the suites included, aside from being able to say you have them and many would subconsciously feel like those are the "best" options available. Having them coded for the QC and at a fairly reduced price isn't a bad idea. Those who've purchased one or all of the plug-ins get them for free on the QC.

As you said, I don't mind either way. I couldn't care less about the suites being included. I'm just stoked to see everything it does from an unbiased source (hopefully before I have it in my hands).


----------



## Lifestalker

zenonshandro said:


> YouTube:
> 
> View attachment 76437



Hell yes. I'll be tuning in after work.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I think the Nolly & Plini Suites pretty much have all grounds covered.


----------



## Dayn

I have a few Neural plugins that do me well. I have wanted an AxeFX for portability compared to my POD, but given how small and lightweight this is, it's perfect.

It's just a new modeler, that's all. But it's also compatible with any plugins you've already purchased. Sounds good to me.


----------



## I play music

I just clicked the preorder and in the shopping cart it now says quad cortex 200€. No word that it would only be a first payment for the preorder. If it's only 200€ then that's an awesome price and I buy that 100%, if it's only some kind of first payment then they have the most misleading website ever.


----------



## aesthyrian

https://neuraldsp.com/quad-cortex/#faqs

"The worldwide cost will be $1599 plus shipping. EU cost will be €1599 (including VAT) plus shipping."


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

For those concerned about returns/repairs, it says they're gonna have a service shop in the US, Canada, and some Asian countries. So that helps ease some concerns.


----------



## Lifestalker

I play music said:


> I just clicked the preorder and in the shopping cart it now says quad cortex 200€. No word that it would only be a first payment for the preorder. If it's only 200€ then that's an awesome price and I buy that 100%, if it's only some kind of first payment then they have the most misleading website ever.



I hope you're not serious. It's in plain english here:

https://neuraldsp.com/quad-cortex/#pre-order


----------



## narad

Lifestalker said:


> I hope you're not serious. It's in plain english here:
> 
> https://neuraldsp.com/quad-cortex/#pre-order



Quad Cortex has more processing power than some forum members.


----------



## Lifestalker

narad said:


> Quad Cortex has more processing power than some forum members.



Sounds about right. Like people asking questions that are clearly answered in the FAQ section. That's the first place I go to. Oh well, what can ya do? I still have a little hope for humanity.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> Quad Cortex has more processing power than some forum members.



Your snark has been much more on point and funnier lately, I applaud you


----------



## I play music

Lifestalker said:


> I hope you're not serious. It's in plain english here:
> 
> https://neuraldsp.com/quad-cortex/#pre-order


Yeah, I already found it out now but in the shopping cart view it is confusing. Also I should go to bed to recover some of my processing power. 


narad said:


> Quad Cortex has more processing power than some forum members.


Plus, I only have one core


----------



## Flappydoodle

One question is whether this has profiling which can be accessed by the user to profile their own amps. I didn’t see a clear answer to that anywhere yet. 

If so, this is a Kemper 2.0 and an Axe FX. As @Lorcan Ward said, profiling is hit or miss, since you can’t really tweak them well afterwards. But if this has good amp models by Neural AND profiling (with an online store, which seems to be the case), this will be awesome.


----------



## axxessdenied

I preordered this so damn fast. lol


----------



## ryanougrad

Flappydoodle said:


> One question is whether this has profiling which can be accessed by the user to profile their own amps. I didn’t see a clear answer to that anywhere yet.
> 
> If so, this is a Kemper 2.0 and an Axe FX. As @Lorcan Ward said, profiling is hit or miss, since you can’t really tweak them well afterwards. But if this has good amp models by Neural AND profiling (with an online store, which seems to be the case), this will be awesome.


From thegearpage:

↑
Does your approach allow the end-user to capture the sound of their own rig?
Of course, a big reason why we included not one, but 2 mic preamps .

It seems Doug Castro is more active over on TGP. Fair enough. The thread there is 40 pages.


----------



## Flappydoodle

ryanougrad said:


> From thegearpage:
> 
> ↑
> Does your approach allow the end-user to capture the sound of their own rig?
> Of course, a big reason why we included not one, but 2 mic preamps .
> 
> It seems Doug Castro is more active over on TGP. Fair enough. The thread there is 40 pages.



Awesome. So yeah, this could be a game changer. Since Kemper haven’t updated their hardware for almost a decade now, I think a lot of people will jump to this. Especially awesome that it isn’t ‘just’ a profiler, but also a modelling platform.


----------



## ryanougrad

Flappydoodle said:


> Awesome. So yeah, this could be a game changer. Since Kemper haven’t updated their hardware for almost a decade now, I think a lot of people will jump to this. Especially awesome that it isn’t ‘just’ a profiler, but also a modelling platform.



Also, from Doug Castro on TGP:

"Our deep learning approach allows us to use more sophisticated loss functions (ours is based on human perception, which results in a much more "accurate" black-box model). Of course, you need a lot more computational power, which is another reason we had to make such a powerful unit: when using Neural Capture the neural network uses 4 SHARC cores in tandem for training).

This approach generalizes better (it can cope with a wider range of sounds), and can even learn parallel signal paths (such as multiband distortion or pedals with a clean blend, dual microphones)."

I stayed away from Kemper for a bit and broke down and purchased the Stage a few weeks ago. I love it, but this has me very interested. Tempted to jump on the pre-order, but right now it's all hype until some reviews come in. Kemper is proven.


----------



## Xaios

Avedas said:


> If you play barefoot it could be an issue.


_Steven Wilson has left the chat._


----------



## ExileMetal

Went with the preorder. I ordered the Plini awhile back to use on the road, and it was surprisingly inspirational to play with. I can’t tell if I got on the first 1000 though.


----------



## Avedas

Xaios said:


> _Steven Wilson has left the chat._


Would Steven Wilson even use an amp modeler? I would have figured he'd still be too busy filming himself in the woods smashing iPods.


----------



## SamSam

narad said:


> Quad Cortex has more processing power than some forum members.



The ss.org quote of the year has arrived far earlier than anticipated.


----------



## Tisca

ExileMetal said:


> I can’t tell if I got on the first 1000 though.



It's a bit unclear. First 1000 units are numbered but was the pre-order batch also "only" 1000 units?


I was close to pre-ordering one but had to stop and think why.

You get a numbered unit.
Receive a certificate of ownership. So like a receipt? =)
Booklet with pics. Like a manual you won't read anyway? =)
Sure you get yours a bit sooner than the rest but that wouldn't matter to me.

What if they notice they done goofed and come out with a new revision just after.
What if demand is so big they release another model ASAP.
Wait and get the chance to snag a 2nd hand unit.
Wait and see/hear the reviews.
NAMM is around the corner and who knows what else will be out before this ships.
Maybe this unit will be so good others have to cut prices so those might seems like a better value.

On the other hand, the deposit is refundable so it would only be like a interest free loan to them in worst case.
Choices.
#GAS

*
EDIT:* f*ck it. Pre-ordered.
Earlier today Doug commented on TGP that they had sold already 98%.


*EDIT 2:* was like 15min late for first 1000. Might as well cancel.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7OjWNWnRFb/


----------



## Masoo2

I'm surprised how okay some of you guys are with paying $1600 for a modeler only for it to already have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC from the get-go.

That's why I was always a fan of the Axe FX compared to the pre-Helix Line 6 stuff or the Kemper, you didn't have to pay to get more tones you simply had them all. In fact, that's the reason I always was interested in one, cause you got ALL of the sounds and features from day 1 (+ free updates later on) without ever having to drop another cent.

This product seems cool and I know the modeling is already proven, but man does it suck to see them pushing an EA/Activision approach of "Here's our $60 game, we're already announcing $100 worth of DLC for it" which has become hated in the gaming world.


----------



## oracles

Avedas said:


> Would Steven Wilson even use an amp modeler? I would have figured he'd still be too busy filming himself in the woods smashing iPods.



He's still using the same BadCat Lynx 50 hes had forever, but added a small H&K 112 for his newest record. Doubtful we'd ever see him switch to a modeling solution, his views on music are still very much rooted in the 70s.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Masoo2 said:


> I'm surprised how okay some of you guys are with paying $1600 for a modeler only for it to already have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC from the get-go.
> 
> That's why I was always a fan of the Axe FX compared to the pre-Helix Line 6 stuff or the Kemper, you didn't have to pay to get more tones you simply had them all. In fact, that's the reason I always was interested in one, cause you got ALL of the sounds and features from day 1 (+ free updates later on) without ever having to drop another cent.
> 
> This product seems cool and I know the modeling is already proven, but man does it suck to see them pushing an EA/Activision approach of "Here's our $60 game, we're already announcing $100 worth of DLC for it" which has become hated in the gaming world.



It seems there are only a few ways to make money in this game:

1) You release a really expensive hardware piece every few years, but it's a one time buy.

2) You just update software occasionally. Keeping your hardware development costs minimal.

3) You release content for sale in a segmented approach. 

There's no pleasing everyone, but thankfully there are plenty of products out there.


----------



## Backsnack

Page 17 and people are still complaining about DLC.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Backsnack said:


> Page 17 and people are still complaining about DLC.



It's the Line 6 model packs all over again.


----------



## ExileMetal

Masoo2 said:


> I'm surprised how okay some of you guys are with paying $1600 for a modeler only for it to already have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC from the get-go.
> 
> That's why I was always a fan of the Axe FX compared to the pre-Helix Line 6 stuff or the Kemper, you didn't have to pay to get more tones you simply had them all. In fact, that's the reason I always was interested in one, cause you got ALL of the sounds and features from day 1 (+ free updates later on) without ever having to drop another cent.
> 
> This product seems cool and I know the modeling is already proven, but man does it suck to see them pushing an EA/Activision approach of "Here's our $60 game, we're already announcing $100 worth of DLC for it" which has become hated in the gaming world.



I totally understand where you’re coming from, but impressions should come out long before the actual unit ships and I’d be stuck with it.

I’ve been using the AxeFX for awhile now and I’m just feeling the need for something different. The interface looks much simpler with many less unneeded knobs, so from that perspective I feel like I’d be happier using this than fiddling with all the weird amp controls in the Axe. Also, I’ve been untrusting of the Axe DI/USB interface quality for awhile now.


----------



## Lifestalker

Masoo2 said:


> I'm surprised how okay some of you guys are with paying $1600 for a modeler only for it to already have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC from the get-go.
> 
> That's why I was always a fan of the Axe FX compared to the pre-Helix Line 6 stuff or the Kemper, you didn't have to pay to get more tones you simply had them all. In fact, that's the reason I always was interested in one, cause you got ALL of the sounds and features from day 1 (+ free updates later on) without ever having to drop another cent.
> 
> This product seems cool and I know the modeling is already proven, but man does it suck to see them pushing an EA/Activision approach of "Here's our $60 game, we're already announcing $100 worth of DLC for it" which has become hated in the gaming world.



What you want was never promised to consumers, so I don’t know where you’re getting it from, aside from expecting it out of entitlement. What’s really wrong with them selling signature profiles in a compatible format? Nothing. There’s also nothing wrong with them releasing signature standalone plug-ins for people who don’t need the Quad Cortex; but that also doesn’t mean if you have one you should be entitled to it because of your purchase. Fractal and plenty of other third parties sell IR’s and presets. There’s nothing wrong with creating another source of profit. 

Fractal adds amps, effects as well as bug fixes free of charge; and guess what, Neural is too! You will have plenty of tones to choose from! 

It’s clearly stated in the FAQ section that amps, effects (and possibly IR’s?) will be added for free, for as long as the hardware can keep up (“eternity” according to Neural).


----------



## axxessdenied

OH MY GOD GUYS. WE'RE GETTING MORE OPTIONS. BURN THE WORLD DOWN!!!!!!!!


----------



## Masoo2

Lifestalker said:


> What you want was never promised to consumers, so I don’t know where you’re getting it from, aside from expecting it out of entitlement. What’s really wrong with them selling signature profiles in a compatible format? Nothing. There’s also nothing wrong with them releasing signature standalone plug-ins for people who don’t need the Quad Cortex; but that also doesn’t mean if you have one you should be entitled to it because of your purchase. Fractal and plenty of other third parties sell IR’s and presets. There’s nothing wrong with creating another source of profit.
> 
> Fractal adds amps, effects as well as bug fixes free of charge; and guess what, Neural is too! You will have plenty of tones to choose from!
> 
> It’s clearly stated in the FAQ section that amps, effects (and possibly IR’s?) will be added for free, for as long as the hardware can keep up (“eternity” according to Neural).


nothing was promised at ALL about the pedal dude, we all found out about it like a day or two ago.

never understand this blatant corporate defending I tend to see solely on forums like this and other niche interest forums (ie: ARFCOM).

it's okay to criticize business practices man, I love their work but it's clear they won't get my money because of this and that's okay. You give them yours, it doesn't bother me or anyone else, I just wanted to add my comment to the discussion which seems to be an opinion shared by a few on here.


----------



## Lifestalker

Masoo2 said:


> nothing was promised at ALL about the pedal dude, we all found out about it like a day or two ago.
> 
> never understand this blatant corporate defending I tend to see solely on forums like this and other niche interest forums (ie: ARFCOM).
> 
> it's okay to criticize business practices man, I love their work but it's clear they won't get my money because of this and that's okay. You give them yours, it doesn't bother me or anyone else, I just wanted to add my comment to the discussion which seems to be an opinion shared by a few on here.



Of course it’s okay to criticize. It seems that since you (the few) aren’t getting all of the current (and future) signature plug-in suites for free, it’s making you bitter enough to not purchase a piece of hardware. I’m sure it won’t hurt their feelings just as much as it won’t hurt yours seeing people enjoy it. As long as it lives up to the hype, they will absolutely get my money. 

I just don’t understand bashing them because they’re trying to make money (god forbid, by still releasing plug-ins without giving them away to QC users for free) and compensate themselves for the hard work and two year development process. No disrespect meant, but it’s a silly reason to me to not buy a product.


----------



## LeftOurEyes

Masoo2 said:


> never understand this blatant corporate defending I tend to see solely on forums like this and other niche interest forums (ie: ARFCOM).



This is why I stay out of most of the conversations. Most people are just trying to justify to themselves why they need to spend more money. Any differing opinion and they call you a hater instead of someone sharing an opinion that differs from their own. What I don't understand though is why people want to pre-order something like this knowing that it wont come out for almost a year and they have never even heard it yet. By the time it comes out half of them will cancel the pre-order because something else came out since then and GAS gets the best of them. To each their own though.


----------



## MetalDaze

I’m adverse to “signature” products. I don’t want someone else’s autograph silk screened on my gear even if I’m a fan. Thus, I could care less about any of the artist plugins. 

Give me the building blocks to make my signature sound and I’ll be happy and I’m guaranteed not to ever be famous enough to force it on anyone else 

btw, I’m in on the first 1000 preorders.


----------



## SamSam

It's disgusting that apple don't give you logic for free when you buy a mac


----------



## narad

LeftOurEyes said:


> What I don't understand though is why people want to pre-order something like this knowing that it wont come out for almost a year and they have never even heard it yet. By the time it comes out half of them will cancel the pre-order because something else came out since then and GAS gets the best of them. To each their own though.



This is SSO. We're used to non-refundable $1200 deposits attached to 3+ year wait times. $200 refundable is child's play comparatively. As a guy trying to develop similar models and with really no need for it, I'm still tempted to throw in a deposit because, why not... figure out if I actually want it when the time comes. 

But then again, I'm sure production will be pretty decent by early 2021 anyway, so there's not really much incentive there either.


----------



## MetalDaze

Another thing to consider. It almost always costs more to preorder direct than buying through a distributor. 

Full price plus shipping versus a coupon and free shipping from a distributor.


----------



## Spinedriver

MetalDaze said:


> I’m adverse to “signature” products. I don’t want someone else’s autograph silk screened on my gear even if I’m a fan. Thus, I could care less about any of the artist plugins.
> 
> Give me the building blocks to make my signature sound and I’ll be happy and I’m guaranteed not to ever be famous enough to force it on anyone else
> 
> btw, I’m in on the first 1000 preorders.



That's just it, who's to say that the amps that are being included can't be made to sound like the "Archetype" packs ?


----------



## axxessdenied

People are complaining about DLC and I'm just sitting here wondering when Profile packs will be coming out that I can throw down on.


----------



## narad

axxessdenied said:


> People are complaining about DLC and I'm just sitting here wondering when Profile packs will be coming out that I can throw down on.



As the kids say, weird flex but ok.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

First 1000 have sold out and they are opening up the next 1000 preorder run. The company has built a really good reputation to be able to sell a device without any demo videos whatsoever. 



Lifestalker said:


> What you want was never promised to consumers, so I don’t know where you’re getting it from



Second time explaining this to you but here it is again. This is a new product that was kept lock tight from the public. It was announced publicly 2 days ago. There was no interaction with the public with this product. 



axxessdenied said:


> People are complaining about DLC and I'm just sitting here wondering when Profile packs will be coming out that I can throw down on.



Now everyone has to go back and re-do their amp packs to include the Quad Cortex along with Kemper, Fractal, Helix and wav.


----------



## axxessdenied

I don't own a Kemper so I'm excited to get well profiled amps.
The appeal of the axe fx was always building tones from scratch and the appeal of the kemper was to be able to capture a pretty accurate snapshot of a real rig. Now, we're getting both worlds in one package.
If I can load my VSTs that I enjoy recording with in my DAW, plus profiled versions of the heads that I love on top of being able to create any kind of effect for other instruments (synth, vox, etc) I basically have the perfect box I've been waiting for.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Has anybody used the neural dsp amp models in a gig? Like through a poweramp or vst to frfr? From what I understand, people mostly use it for recording and through computer monitors. 

Just worried that sometimes, the modeling sounds good in a mix through the computer but in a gig (where the cortex will be used), it can be vastly different.


----------



## axxessdenied

Power amps and cabinets add colour to your tone so of course there will be some difference. You'll have to make sure you run it through a rig that doesn't colour your tone much.

I remember when I ran my axe fx II through my evh 5153 and 212 in 4cm and was using it as a power amp everything still sounded a lot like what the evh does.


----------



## DudeManBrother

MASS DEFECT said:


> Has anybody used the neural dsp amp models in a gig? Like through a poweramp or vst to frfr? From what I understand, people mostly use it for recording and through computer monitors.
> 
> Just worried that sometimes, the modeling sounds good in a mix through the computer but in a gig (where the cortex will be used), it can be vastly different.


That’s going to depend heavily on the IR’s. If ML Soundlab is doing them, they should hold up just fine. But it is a good thing to be aware of. The IR you record with isn’t necessarily the best choice for a venue.


----------



## c7spheres

I'm proud to be clueless about this thing. I saw the picture and have avoidedit on purpose. I don't need any more temptation into this world. I'm already looking at Ibbys, ESP's, Aristides, that new TightMetal Pro and a bunch of other stuff. Ignorance can be bliss! I wonder how long I can resist before reading up on it. : )


----------



## bmth4111

c7spheres said:


> I'm proud to be clueless about this thing. I saw the picture and have avoidedit on purpose. I don't need any more temptation into this world. I'm already looking at Ibbys, ESP's, Aristides, that new TightMetal Pro and a bunch of other stuff. Ignorance can be bliss! I wonder how long I can resist before reading up on it. : )



I'm guessing you haven't tried one of the plugin trials? If not, I'd advise you to not. Because I am playing the nameless now, and I'm a goner.


----------



## Backsnack

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's the Line 6 model packs all over again.


No it isn’t.

People assumed this was going to load their plugins before it was even announced. Everyone who’s bought their plugins up to this point has been happy and assumed they were only ever going to work on a computer. The fact that they’re offering already owned plugins to work on the new hardware is a bonus.

It’s already a full featured modeler out of the box and has Kemper-like capture features.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Backsnack said:


> No it isn’t.
> 
> People assumed this was going to load their plugins before it was even announced. Everyone who’s bought their plugins up to this point has been happy and assumed they were only ever going to work on a computer. The fact that they’re offering already owned plugins to work on the new hardware is a bonus.
> 
> It’s already a full featured modeler out of the box and has Kemper-like capture features.



I meant the complaints about DLC.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Masoo2 said:


> I'm surprised how okay some of you guys are with paying $1600 for a modeler only for it to already have hundreds of dollars worth of DLC from the get-go.
> 
> That's why I was always a fan of the Axe FX compared to the pre-Helix Line 6 stuff or the Kemper, you didn't have to pay to get more tones you simply had them all. In fact, that's the reason I always was interested in one, cause you got ALL of the sounds and features from day 1 (+ free updates later on) without ever having to drop another cent.
> 
> This product seems cool and I know the modeling is already proven, but man does it suck to see them pushing an EA/Activision approach of "Here's our $60 game, we're already announcing $100 worth of DLC for it" which has become hated in the gaming world.



But if you already own the plugins, they will also work on the QC and you don’t need to pay extra. 

So I don’t see the problem at all.


----------



## Restarted

Neural should have never mentioned existing plug-ins in the context of the Quad Cortex. Seriously, the drama it brought out is ridiculous. Unless they meant to do it to get people talking. I'm still confused as to why I would want to load one of those plug-ins on it. I do own the Plini and it's amazing, but I'm pretty sure similar (and most likely better) amps and effects are on the module.


----------



## SamSam

Is it really drama? Or is it half a dozen vocal individuals who will not buy the unit either way? They've sold all 1000 pre-orders in about 48 hours and seem to be doing pretty well on the second batch as well. 

The majority of people just want to hear it by the look of things.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

It’s the most talked about thing across forums and social media from what I’ve seen. They should have either included them on the device or flat out said they won’t ever be. Being able to use nameless or Nolly live in a physical unit was requested endlessly since they were released, second to an all-in-one suite which I hope is coming 2021 onwards. With no sound demos, amp list and a vague FAQ it’s left people quite hesitant to commit to a pre-order from what I’ve read the last week.(Not that it mattered for the first run!).

I’m guessing it will be after NAMM when videos and more details are released. With the quality of their plug-ins you're in safe hands. Like a lot of others I got a better tone out of their plug-ins in 5 mins than I did from my Fractal. If the QC has that ease of use then its a winner. Pair that with the profiling abilities of the Kemper but with much less destructive EQ options for tweaking profiles and this unit could dominate the market.


----------



## Boris_VTR

Is it just me or whenever bands use Kempers/AxeFX live, the guitar sound just...isn't there? I don't mean that is not heard. Its just not hiting me in the guts. I can be totaly wrong here.


----------



## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

Boris_VTR said:


> Is it just me or whenever bands use Kempers/AxeFX live, the guitar sound just...isn't there? I don't mean that is not heard. Its just not hiting me in the guts. I can be totaly wrong here.



I saw Killswitch Engage a couple months ago and they were using Kempers. Thin, lifeless tone. Great show but yeah, the oomph wasn't there. Revocation were on before them with their EVH's on stage and it was killer!


----------



## Boris_VTR

OliOliver said:


> I saw Killswitch Engage a couple months ago and they were using Kempers. Thin, lifeless tone. Great show but yeah, the oomph wasn't there. Revocation were on before them with their EVH's on stage and it was killer!


Sadly bands this days usually have amps in the background so I can't be 100% sure what they are using.


----------



## Backsnack

MetalDaze said:


> Another thing to consider. It almost always costs more to preorder direct than buying through a distributor.
> 
> Full price plus shipping versus a coupon and free shipping from a distributor.


Small price to pay for having a low serial number and to be one of the first to make a NGD post about it.


----------



## axxessdenied

Not sure if neural dsp could even offer their plugins for free on the Quad Cortex without increasing the price as I am assuming they have contractual obligations to meet from having a bunch of different names on their plugins.


----------



## LeftOurEyes

What blows my mind is without hearing this how many people there are that are so hyped for this that it sounds like they get a commission for every unit sold or at least a handjob. You don't work for the company but brag how fast they sold the first 1000 units, or they hype to have a serial number lower than 1000 as if almost anybody actually cares about that. These aren't like an amp where the first 500 had a different transformer or something. Good for Neural for doing well, I just don't see how someone can be so emotional invested to defend the company like they own stock in it when they haven't even seen or heard the product they are praising. I don't care about any of the DLC drama as much as I am sooooo turned off by circle jerk hype trains really. I am glad that guitar oriented companies are selling well because that is good for our market but I avoid products like this at least until a few years after they are out and I can get an ACTUAL opinion on it and not a hyped up response from someone who has never used it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

LeftOurEyes said:


> What blows my mind is without hearing this how many people there are that are so hyped for this that it sounds like they get a commission for every unit sold or at least a handjob. You don't work for the company but brag how fast they sold the first 1000 units, or they hype to have a serial number lower than 1000 as if almost anybody actually cares about that. These aren't like an amp where the first 500 had a different transformer or something. Good for Neural for doing well, I just don't see how someone can be so emotional invested to defend the company like they own stock in it when they haven't even seen or heard the product they are praising. I don't care about any of the DLC drama as much as I am sooooo turned off by circle jerk hype trains really. I am glad that guitar oriented companies are selling well because that is good for our market but I avoid products like this at least until a few years after they are out and I can get an ACTUAL opinion on it and not a hyped up response from someone who has never used it.



The low serial number thing is just something of a forum joke at a certain builder's expense.


----------



## LeftOurEyes

MaxOfMetal said:


> The low serial number thing is just something of a forum joke at a certain builder's expense.



Who's expense is that? You can pm the answer if you want, I'm just curious now lol


----------



## MaxOfMetal

LeftOurEyes said:


> Who's expense is that? You can pm the answer if you want, I'm just curious now lol



Falbo. Dig through the Abasi Guitars thread, it's in there somewhere. I'm sure someone will throw a link out for you.

The gist of it:
- Builder brags about pre-orders.
- When asked why folks would take a gamble on something that doesn't exist the phrase "to get low serial numbers" is born without a shred of shame.
- Builder fails.
- A meme is born.

I don't mean to make Falbo out to be a bag guy, now that much of the drama has settled, publicly, he seems to take it in stride. No customer was ripped off, so we get to have some fun with it.


----------



## noise in my mind

I'm curious how the effects with this thing would sound with a tube amp.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

noise in my mind said:


> I'm curious how the effects with this thing would sound with a tube amp.



I'm very curious too. Nobody knows as of yet and we just have to wait for more real world reviews when the hype has settled. 
That is also why my mind is blown with the hype of this product that is apparently made for gigging but there is no demo or sample of how would this fare up on stage with a full band, with a tube amp, or a solid state power amp, in 4cm, or on its own in frfr. 
We don't even know if it is as transparent and quiet as say, a Fractal FX8/AX8 when paired with a Tube amp.


----------



## Lemonbaby

LeftOurEyes said:


> What blows my mind is without hearing this how many people there are that are so hyped for this that it sounds like they get a commission for every unit sold or at least a handjob.


Did someone say "handjob"? GO BUY THAT THING... NOOOOW!


----------



## axxessdenied




----------



## thrashinbatman

Boris_VTR said:


> Sadly bands this days usually have amps in the background so I can't be 100% sure what they are using.


I feel like most Kemper bands don't use cabs anymore, and there's just no replacement for a cab on stage pushing air. I've played shows where I was asked to turn the cab down to an absurdly quiet level and the vibe just vanished on stage. You gotta have that pressure from a cab (or cabs) cranked to high heaven. I've seen Exodus several times, they use Kempers into 4 4x12s, and they sound great. Just like tube heads. My Kemper rig into a cab is just like a head as well.


----------



## olejason

Can the QC deliver early Darkthrone tones?


----------



## Vyn

I'd just like to point out that buying this and the Nameless plugin is still far cheaper than getting your hands on a Fortin Meshuggah head. I imagine people will buy it based on that alone.


----------



## nightlight

Vyn said:


> I'd just like to point out that buying this and the Nameless plugin is still far cheaper than getting your hands on a Fortin Meshuggah head. I imagine people will buy it based on that alone.



But is the Meshuggah plugin better than the Meshuggah amp? That is the question. 

Does anyone have the Neural plugins and a Kemper? I've heard some people say the plugins are good, but are they Kemper good (again, very subjective)?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

nightlight said:


> But is the Meshuggah plugin better than the Meshuggah amp? That is the question.
> 
> Does anyone have the Neural plugins and a Kemper? I've heard some people say the plugins are good, but are they Kemper good (again, very subjective)?


both the plugins and kemper profiles are highly dependent on who's dialing them in. I've gotten very good results out of both and I think the plugins are easily some of the best sounding on the market. The modeling tech that neural is using in their plugins feels a bit more realistic compared to the kemper where it treats any eq changes and such the same, regardless of the amp model.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> both the plugins and kemper profiles are highly dependent on who's dialing them in. I've gotten very good results out of both and I think the plugins are easily some of the best sounding on the market. The modeling tech that neural is using in their plugins feels a bit more realistic compared to the kemper where it treats any eq changes and such the same, regardless of the amp model.



The plug-ins are component models, while the Kemper is end-to-end (like Neural Capture), so your EQ is naturally going to be more destructive in the latter case.


----------



## Avedas

Boris_VTR said:


> Is it just me or whenever bands use Kempers/AxeFX live, the guitar sound just...isn't there? I don't mean that is not heard. Its just not hiting me in the guts. I can be totaly wrong here.


If they're only using FOH sound/stage monitors and no stage cabs it's going to sound weak up front close to the stage.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> The plug-ins are component models, while the Kemper is end-to-end (like Neural Capture), so your EQ is naturally going to be more destructive in the latter case.


The kemper has global parameters for the eq settings, which is why profiles start to sound extremely similar (and terrible) if you deviate too much from the original profile settings. It's easily the worst aspect of the kemper. I can't wait for a modeler that has a more involved modeling process/actually takes into account how a specific amp's eq/controls function.


----------



## nightlight

KnightBrolaire said:


> both the plugins and kemper profiles are highly dependent on who's dialing them in. I've gotten very good results out of both and I think the plugins are easily some of the best sounding on the market. The modeling tech that neural is using in their plugins feels a bit more realistic compared to the kemper where it treats any eq changes and such the same, regardless of the amp model.



That's really interesting. Better than the Kemper? That would be something. I haven't tried the Neural plugins, so no idea. 

The Kemper is quite amp-like, not 100% compared to real amps, but more than good enough for playing on stage. If the Neural software is better, I'm surprised more people haven't said so.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> The kemper has global parameters for the eq settings, which is why profiles start to sound extremely similar (and terrible) if you deviate too much from the original profile settings. It's easily the worst aspect of the kemper. I can't wait for a modeler that has a more involved modeling process/actually takes into account how a specific amp's eq/controls function.



I know, but at some point in time your model needs to see the result of some of your amp's EQ changes in order to mimic them. You can do a component model, or you can sit around while you profile your amp like 9^3 times to get a good representation of your tonestack from the "outside".


----------



## DudeManBrother

This is why the Kemper is considered a profiler and not a modeler. A digital amp model should be able to cop the tones of the modeled circuit and react to eq changes like the real circuit. 

The Kemper is representing a recorded tone, where the entire signal chain effects the profile. When a mixing engineer gets guitar tracks: he has an arsenal of EQs, compression, etc that have nothing to do with the amp(s) the tracks were recorded with. At some point someone said “this is the guitar tone I want” and the engineer works with it. You are the engineer with the Kemper. You have an arsenal of EQs and compression available to sculpt the tone so that it works for your application; but ultimately you need to have a good base tone profiled to get a result you’re happy with.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

nightlight said:


> That's really interesting. Better than the Kemper? That would be something. I haven't tried the Neural plugins, so no idea.
> 
> The Kemper is quite amp-like, not 100% compared to real amps, but more than good enough for playing on stage. If the Neural software is better, I'm surprised more people haven't said so.


The kemper is great, provided you're not really deviating from the profile very much. The plugins are just better at tolerating eq changes and more in line with how the real amps they're based off of do it. I haven't heard of anyone bothering to tour with plugins at this point, though I imagine it's more than possible now given how good some of them are. 




narad said:


> I know, but at some point in time your model needs to see the result of some of your amp's EQ changes in order to mimic them. You can do a component model, or you can sit around while you profile your amp like 9^3 times to get a good representation of your tonestack from the "outside".


I was thinking from an ease of use perspective just having the modeler "listen" to the frequency shift as the user turns the knobs one at a time. The harder thing would probably getting it to collate those data points into a coherent model. Then again I'm not a software/engineering guy so I have no idea of what's actually feasible, so I should probably just shut up


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

KnightBrolaire said:


> The kemper is great, provided you're not really deviating from the profile very much.
> 
> That's what I've noticed. A core profile can sound great. But when you start to tweak and EQ the profile too much, it starts to sound really artificial. Probably explains why i heard that weird cocked mid range with some profiles.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Seems like the Quartex (you heard it here first) is reaching toward the Fractal crowd with the component modeling, the Kemper crowd with the capture, the Helix crowd with the UI, and the NDSP Plugin crowd with the dialing simplicity. In other words, trying to incorporate some of the best aspects of the most popular modelers and including top-shelf tones. Solid strategy if you can pull it off. 

I was one of the early adopters of course—it’s my habit—but we’ll see what happens as more details and some videos/demos are released. I accept that asking for a refund is an unlikely, but still quite real, possibility.


----------



## Deadpool_25

On the Kemper:
I haven’t used one, but it seems to me if you want realistic EQ interaction a modeler like AxeFX makes sense. But so many people dial in their amp a certain way and leave it there (especially gigging artists) that a profile that doesn’t really react well to EQ changes would be fine (EQ at FOH for venue-specific adjustments).

On modelers sounding thin live:
In my experience (as a person in the crowd) it’s not an issue if there are cabs on stage. Plini was going direct through FOH and also going into a 4x12 powered by a PowerStage. Sounded phenomenal and quite powerful. There have been other examples that sound great with AceFX as well: Sithu Aye, Scale the Summit, Periphery, Intervals, etc. All were using some stage volume. 

I’ve also had to move away from the stage at other shows because the real amps were blowing my face off. I remember an assigned-seats show where I REALLY wished Robben Ford would turn that Dumble down lol.


----------



## nightlight

That's my experience with the powered Kemper as well. Through studio monitors, it sounds awfully refined and a bit sterile. But through a cab, it's almost like an amp - a bit more refined and not as ballsy, but you can get the same amp in the room feel. 

On the other hand, the crowd loves the hi-fi through PA sound more than a beamy guitar cabinet, so always good to have a combination of both, i.e. cab for stage, line out for PA.


----------



## Elric

Dayn said:


> It's just a new modeler, that's all. But it's also compatible with any plugins you've already purchased. Sounds good to me.


Only the Neural plugins Can be loaded to the QC. It is not some hardware VST loader. Some people seem to think it is for some reason.


----------



## Shask

nightlight said:


> That's my experience with the powered Kemper as well. Through studio monitors, it sounds awfully refined and a bit sterile. But through a cab, it's almost like an amp - a bit more refined and not as ballsy, but you can get the same amp in the room feel.
> 
> On the other hand, the crowd loves the hi-fi through PA sound more than a beamy guitar cabinet, so always good to have a combination of both, i.e. cab for stage, line out for PA.


That is why I could never get into plugins, or even using modelers through monitors and headphones. Very uninspiring, and flat sounding/feeling. It sounds like a recording of an amp, instead of an amp. I have almost always used my Axe-FX through a poweramp and cab for this reason.


----------



## bmth4111

The nameless plugin through monitors sound surprisingly massive little effort. 

I'm really looking forward to the unit but I wish it had a power switch. 

IN the neural dsp live q and a didn't they say something about the latency being 2.5 milliseconds? I wonder if that is perceivable when playing.


----------



## budda

Shask said:


> That is why I could never get into plugins, or even using modelers through monitors and headphones. Very uninspiring, and flat sounding/feeling. It sounds like a recording of an amp, instead of an amp. I have almost always used my Axe-FX through a poweramp and cab for this reason.



And yet its always the recorded tones of amps that people chase. 

I was going to keep my 412, til i had to move it. My back deserves the break .

Obviously there's many ways to tackle tone. If I find myself longing for an amp in the room tone, I will probably downsize the cab .


----------



## nightlight

budda said:


> And yet its always the recorded tones of amps that people chase.
> 
> I was going to keep my 412, til i had to move it. My back deserves the break .
> 
> Obviously there's many ways to tackle tone. If I find myself longing for an amp in the room tone, I will probably downsize the cab .



A Mesa Boogie Thiele with an EVM12L is a good inestment. Love mine with the powered Kemper


----------



## Metropolis

bmth4111 said:


> The nameless plugin through monitors sound surprisingly massive little effort.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to the unit but I wish it had a power switch.
> 
> IN the neural dsp live q and a didn't they say something about the latency being 2.5 milliseconds? I wonder if that is perceivable when playing.



Same as every other modeler, not very noticeable.

Da fuq, thread about Quad Cortex in Fractal Audio's forum got deleted. It must have been a total dumpster fire in there.


----------



## Deadpool_25

bmth4111 said:


> The nameless plugin through monitors sound surprisingly massive little effort.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to the unit but I wish it had a power switch.
> 
> IN the neural dsp live q and a didn't they say something about the latency being 2.5 milliseconds? I wonder if that is perceivable when playing.



I'm pretty sure you mean you wish it had a hardware power switch, but it does have a software/UI power switch according to @Doug Castro. I'm not sure how that correlates for actual power usage and such.

2.5ms should NOT be perceivable. If you're playing through a real amp/cab from 8 feet away, you'll get 2.5ms of "latency".


----------



## Deadpool_25

Metropolis said:


> Da fuq, thread about Quad Cortex in Fractal Audio's forum got deleted. It must have been a total dumpster fire in there.



Maybe. The Quartex seems like it will be a real threat in terms of modeler market share, so I'm not overly surprised they'd dump that thread even if it was perfectly civil and logical. Which, even though I hadn't seen it, I'm 100% sure it wasn't lol


----------



## nightlight

Deadpool_25 said:


> Maybe. The Quartex seems like it will be a real threat in terms of modeler market share, so I'm not overly surprised they'd dump that thread even if it was perfectly civil and logical. Which, even though I hadn't seen it, I'm 100% sure it wasn't lol



Someone must have whispered FM3.


----------



## Metropolis

Deadpool_25 said:


> Maybe. The Quartex seems like it will be a real threat in terms of modeler market share, so I'm not overly surprised they'd dump that thread even if it was perfectly civil and logical. Which, even though I hadn't seen it, I'm 100% sure it wasn't lol



Thread was in the lounge section which is for all kinds of off-topic discussion, reason for deleting it seems biased.

UI power switch? How it works when powering on? If some of the footswitches or volume knob is made to do that.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah two hours with a Kemper just scrolling through presets and it became obvious that the profile is the profile and EQ beyond one or two “notches” in either direction hurt more than helped. 

Fantastic for finding profiles you like and then just sticking with it (what I wanted). 

But if you like to tinker? AxeFX, Helix, this neural thing potentially is going to do more of what you want.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

If the Neural can have accurate profiling AND somehow have a way to emulate the EQ/Gain controls of the specific amp (pipe dream I know, but if they do it... ) I don't give a shit about how cheesy their marketing is, this would be a Kemper killer.


----------



## DudeManBrother

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If the Neural can have accurate profiling AND somehow have a way to emulate the EQ/Gain controls of the specific amp (pipe dream I know, but if they do it... ) I don't give a shit about how cheesy their marketing is, this would be a Kemper killer.


That would be an everything killer  Doug himself said, in that live QnA, that it’s totally unrealistic to spend the programming time to create an EQ like that, as it’d be millions of data points. It sounded to me like he was implying a general static EQ would apply over the capture, just like the Kemper does. Using the touchscreen parametric EQ looks like it’d be dope though.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DudeManBrother said:


> That would be an everything killer  Doug himself said, in that live QnA, that it’s totally unrealistic to spend the programming time to create an EQ like that, as it’d be millions of data points. It sounded to me like he was implying a general static EQ would apply over the capture, just like the Kemper does. Using the touchscreen parametric EQ looks like it’d be dope though.


Yeah it's what I assumed. Too many variables, especially where you have EQs that can have single controls that influence the entie section (see: Mesa Mark and Recto). But one can dream.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> ...But if you like to tinker? AxeFX, Helix, this neural thing potentially is going to do more of what you want.



Yeah. I like to be able to dial in tones using traditional controls (GBMTPR etc.). I don't need or want the depth of control the AxeFX gives which is one reason I sold it. The appeal of the NDSP plugins (I have the Plini) is that they sound great out of the box and have a relatively limited selection of choices. If you want to tweak something the controls are simple, intuitive, and even graphically familiar. 

I've said it would be cool to have a simple piece of gear that would allow me to run Archetype: Plini through my amp's FX loop. Along with that, I'd like to have some more tradional sounds. Not a lot; maybe Plexi, JCM800, and some nice Fendery cleans. This will do all that (and obviously a lot more). If they stick with their norm of keeping the options down/reasonable and having super high quality sounds, this will be great for me.

Additionally, I hope enough consideration is given to those who want to run either their whole signal chain, or part of it, through a real amp FX loop. Doug said on the Q&A that they're considering separating the preamp and poweramp sections of the models for this purpose so it's at least a topic of discussion.


----------



## noise in my mind

Seems like Fractal is getting nervous. They deleted the Quad Cortex thread on their forum!


----------



## Deadpool_25

Deadpool_25 said:


> 2.5ms should NOT be perceivable. If you're playing through a real amp/cab from 8 feet away, you'll get 2.5ms of "latency".



Correcting myself, I think 2.5ms more equates to 3 feet.


----------



## Deadpool_25

noise in my mind said:


> Seems like Fractal is getting nervous. They deleted the Quad Cortex thread on their forum!



@Metropolis mentioned that a few posts up. I think it's perfectly reasonable from a business point of view, OT forum or not. Biased? Yes, certainly. As they should be.


----------



## noise in my mind

Deadpool_25 said:


> @Metropolis mentioned that a few posts up. I think it's perfectly reasonable from a business point of view, OT forum or not. Biased? Yes, certainly. As they should be.


Yeah, doesn't bother me. I think they are delaying the FM3 now even more and basically redesigning a bunch of its functions to complete with the Quad Cortex. Just a guess.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Deadpool_25 said:


> @Metropolis mentioned that a few posts up. I think it's perfectly reasonable from a business point of view, OT forum or not. Biased? Yes, certainly. As they should be.



Business? Maybe.

PR wise? Streisand Effect. 

I'm still curious if it's because the thread was a trashfire.


----------



## budda

Or they deleted it because people were being assholes. But maybe that's not conspiracy enough


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> Or they deleted it because people were being assholes. But maybe that's not conspiracy enough



That's what I'm wondering. I don't browse the forums so I can't say.


----------



## Lemonbaby

budda said:


> Or they deleted it because people were being assholes. But maybe that's not conspiracy enough


No need for conspiracy - there's literally billions of Internet Toughguys out there waiting to get their user account blocked. Fractal is actually quite liberal with threads about competitor products on their forum. There's tons of Helix and Kemper discussions...


----------



## laxu

bmth4111 said:


> IN the neural dsp live q and a didn't they say something about the latency being 2.5 milliseconds? I wonder if that is perceivable when playing.



They are looking to get it _below_ 2.5ms. For reference, Fractal says Axe-Fx 2/3 round trip latency is around 1ms and Helix is about 2ms. No, you can't tell a difference in latency between the two. Just using a VST plugin you most like have much higher roundtrip latency unless you have a very high end audio interface.


----------



## budda

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's what I'm wondering. I don't browse the forums so I can't say.



I do, but Ive only been checking PM's lately. No response to my iii + midi mate thread .


----------



## LeviathanKiller

noise in my mind said:


> Yeah, doesn't bother me. I think they are delaying the FM3 now even more and basically redesigning a bunch of its functions to complete with the Quad Cortex. Just a guess.


Not purposefully from what I've seen. Been on the waitlist since day one for it and the latest hold up was firmware bugs. That's all.
Support for the FM3 just got added to Fractal Bot so it appears to be getting much closer to release day.


----------



## Tisca

This just in


----------



## budda

Not my take, but probably a worthwhile read since dropping $2k isn't easy for a good chunk of the members here. As you were.



> "Everything about this points to a disaster in progress though.
> 
> When a car company that has been around for a hundred years uses an exploded schematic in their marketing it's legit. It's a celebration of the longevity of their designs. When a company that hasn't released a physical product yet heavily features an exploded schematic as the core of their marketing......they can try to pass it off as a high class aesthetic choice, but it certainly looks like the company making it has no fucking clue how the parts of their product that aren't obviously vaporware work, that schematic is one of the only things they have on hand. They don't even have an abundance of information about their own product.
> 
> And to be fair, just because someone has a respectable track record doesn't mean they can't go down in flames with a disaster vaporware project. Look at people like John Romero. Some of the biggest disasters of all time in that category were from people who had respectable or even pioneering track records.
> 
> The entire roll out of this product looks suspiciously like the supposed makers themselves didn't have that much information about it. It's not exactly hard to see it's 50% vaporware/50% last gen tech based off 3-4 year old units.
> 
> It's worth noting that companies like Evertune and Axe-FX, whether you like their products or not, get featured in magazines like Popular Science or IEEE Spectrum or something. Because whether you personally like it or not, it's innovative, and the guys can explain how it works. Guitar sites will re run Neural's ad copy, but I would be surprised if any reputable trade site was willing to run a story on their outrageous claims with no proof offered. Companies like Fractal and Evertune are passion projects founded by people who believed in their designs, Neural has "company that was formed after a bunch of guys got together and said 'if other people are making money off this shit, we might as well too' " written all over it.
> 
> Neural doesn't even have a "how it works" page on their site. The stuff that is (presumably) demonstrably there is last gen unexciting stuff, another iteration of hardware that is already at the end of its lifecycle, and the claims that are a little more....out there......well those don't even have attempted explanations anywhere.
> 
> They maybe could have pulled this off as a $400-$600 unit aimed at a niche modern metal youtube market. But trying to get it to go head to head with other flagship units like the AXE-FX III at a high price point, when none of their claims stand up to scrutiny, and even the ones that do only prove it's on par with an older iteration of the units they are supposedly more cutting edge than is madness. Plugins and shit like that around the $200-$400 price point are more subjective, and no one will scrutinize them that closely, but a hardware unit in the same field and at the same price point as other cutting edge flagship units..... Yeah, maybe this will stand up to scrutiny, but I doubt it.
> 
> It's not just a case of observers being like, "this shit clearly isn't ready to be sold yet", the companies pre-order strategy is blatantly admitting the product is nowhere near ready to be sold yet.
> 
> It doesn't help that they are using cliches from low rent TV Infomercials. Even brands that make the most durable shit in their fields are smarter than to advertise their shit as "unbreakable".
> 
> The design better be fucking unbreakable, because from the looks of how the company operates, when a unit doesn't work or fails, which will happen on a number of units in anything mass produced in that quantity, no matter the level of QC, they are going to have to outright replace it. They aren't building them themselves. What happens when shit fails? Which is inevitable. They contracted a factory to build them 1000 units, not offer indefinite warranty repair support.
> 
> It's not just a case of shitting on a trendy brand because you don't like djent, you can take a quick look at their roll out for this product and see that every element has "disaster in progress" written all over it. Their own behavior contradicts their claims. If this is the most cutting edge unit out there, and anyone can inarguably see that from experiencing one, what the fuck do they need an extra year for before they start shipping? It certainly looks like a theranos type situation where the people at the top advertised one thing, announce when it is coming out, and then told the people actually making it they have a finite amount of time to get it to work, even though it is currently not working.
> 
> The only way this product could be worse is if Neural approached Samsung to design internal batteries for it.
> 
> That's not even getting into the more bullshit stuff like "a hand numbered certificate of authenticity included with their first 1000 units". No one gives a shit about that stuff for utilitarian tech products. People buying RAM or CPUs aren't like, "oh shit, better go with the brand that ships with hand numbered certificates of authenticity". - GB


----------



## Rev2010

I know Neural makes great stuff, but I gotta say I'm surprised how many people are willing to plunk down cash on a unit that won't even ship until 8 months from now that you've also never heard or seen a manual for. I guess the fact that it's not that pricey a deposit and it's 100% refundable is the attraction, but the way I look at it other competing products can come out within that time and the release date can be pushed back, sometimes several times. Has there been any mention of what 50+ amp models are included by default?


Rev.


----------



## Rev2010

Tisca said:


> This just in




Not to be a "Negative Nacy", but I think they would've been wiser waiting than allowing that to be posted. Three lack-luster sounds that could be easily accomplished with a POD HD. Just saying. I'm sure the unit will be waaaay better by the time it's released, I have no doubt there, but that video alone would have me considering my choice of a deposit had I made one.


Rev.


----------



## Vyn

Tisca said:


> This just in




I understand that they wanted to demo the onboard sounds however if they really wanted to sell it, demo it with Nameless or NTS


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> Not my take, but probably a worthwhile read since dropping $2k isn't easy for a good chunk of the members here. As you were.


I mean, that whole thing is equally full of bias and made-up-ness as the product advertising.


----------



## budda

GunpointMetal said:


> I mean, that whole thing is equally full of bias and made-up-ness as the product advertising.



Given the writer does not care about the competitors either, what is the bias? Honest question, I didn't write it .

Feel free to pick it apart.


----------



## Cynicanal

budda said:


> Not my take, but probably a worthwhile read since dropping $2k isn't easy for a good chunk of the members here. As you were.


Sauce plz.


----------



## narad

Man, tough crowd. I thought it sounded fine.

I mean, you can imagine that the Axe-FX III will probably get a small price decrease by QC launch time, and the two units are going to likely be priced similarly and pretty comparable tonally. So to me the distinguishing point is more the form factor and interface. I'd rather sit down with the QC right next to me than have the Axe in some rack somewhere, and I'd rather have a box I can bring with me somewhere (or even elsewhere around the apartment). Whereas the Axe will have more parameters to tweak any sound (and all the more reason why it's baffling to me how they could overlook doing a significant UI redesign over the past 10 years).



budda said:


> Not my take, but probably a worthwhile read since dropping $2k isn't easy for a good chunk of the members here. As you were.



I don't know who "GB" is but that's such a flakey criticism. They have done hardware, basically, under DarkGlass. It's not the same company, but let's not pretend like it's not drawing from the same set of guys and facilities. In terms of the tech not being proven, sure, but it's not a huge leap from the plug-ins. They have quite low CPU usage. Sounds like a Fractal fanboy.

I'm half facetious but the biggest red flag to me is that "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!' Nothing beside remains" quote in the video and etched on the bottom. How pretentious. Did they not understand the moral of Ozymandias or is there some context I'm missing where this makes sense here? That and the biomimetic stuff. Don't let the marketing tail wag the product dog.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Tisca said:


> This just in




Eh. Not the best way to introduce a beta. Helix teasers with lame cabs sounded a bit more lively.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I thought the demo sounded fine.


----------



## Rev2010

narad said:


> Man, tough crowd. I thought it sounded fine.



I just think they should've waited and done a more proper demo for the first sound unveiling. I mean think about it... seems like they are getting quite ahead of themselves. They release the teaser pic on Facebook and not even a week later we have the full info on what it is along with a call to preorder with an 8 month away ship time. Then they release this lackluster video only a few days later. Someone next in charge over there needs someone to throttle the one in charge and have them slow down a bit lol. Supporters will still be waiting and not going anywhere.


Rev.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I thought the Marshall tone sounded about right. Nothing that blew me away tbh, but I like it. The lead tone was a bit fizzy and bloated and sounded like a stereotypical “modeler” tone to me. Clean tones are impossible to judge critically when drowning in effects, so meh overall. I could do a show with those sounds and be content, but I’d just as happily stick with what I have, based on that sample.


----------



## Crundles

It sounded ... ok. They probably could've taken a week or so to make a more polished video for first impressions, but eh, whatever.

Despite the gimmicky* biomimetic *marketing, I really hope the product succeeds. 

Mostly because it doesn't appear like Christoph Kemper is interested in developing a radically new Kemper SKU in response to existing competitors, so hopefully a brand new company entering the market might be the needed push.


----------



## Vyn

Crundles said:


> It sounded ... ok. They probably could've taken a week or so to make a more polished video for first impressions, but eh, whatever.
> 
> Despite the gimmicky* biomimetic *marketing, I really hope the product succeeds.
> 
> Mostly because it doesn't appear like Christoph Kemper is interested in developing a radically new Kemper SKU in response to existing competitors, so hopefully a brand new company entering the market might be the needed push.



I actually think the 'amp profiler' as we know it with Kemper will slowly die as people seem to be leaning more towards modelling.


----------



## budda

narad said:


> Sounds like a Fractal fanboy.



Anything but, actually .

Re the quote: it was that or the one related to the atom bomb it seems.


----------



## Crundles

Vyn said:


> I actually think the 'amp profiler' as we know it with Kemper will slowly die as people seem to be leaning more towards modelling.



Possible, but I think there are two major benefits of profiling that'll drive its longevity:

1. You can take an exact copy of your pre-existing rig with you in a lighter, more compact format
2. You don't need to have in-depth knowledge of tone creation, just get a profile you like and slap it on

If you tend to read modeller comparison threads, especially on forums with less "pro" users, number two comes up surprisingly often.


----------



## narad

Crundles said:


> Possible, but I think there are two major benefits of profiling that'll drive its longevity:
> 
> 1. You can take an exact copy of your pre-existing rig with you in a lighter, more compact format
> 2. You don't need to have in-depth knowledge of tone creation, just get a profile you like and slap it on
> 
> If you tend to read modeller comparison threads, especially on forums with less "pro" users, number two comes up surprisingly often.



Yea, part of why the discussion on this box is way more heated over at TGP is because there's ways more Kemper fanatics over there, where they've broken in more with older demographics. Not everyone wants to menu dive for forever.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

narad said:


> Yea, part of why the discussion on this box is way more heated over at TGP is because there's ways more Kemper fanatics over there, where they've broken in more with older demographics. Not everyone wants to menu dive for forever.


That's actually one of the things I hated about my Kemper. You had to menu dive and press a button literally 100s of times to get through various settings/pages/parameters/etc. For the most part, I think that interface is atrocious.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

If I learned anything from using the AX8 and my newly-recieved AMT CP100... A great, easy-to-use interface is a fucking blessing.


----------



## Vyn

LeviathanKiller said:


> That's actually one of the things I hated about my Kemper. You had to menu dive and press a button literally 100s of times to get through various settings/pages/parameters/etc. For the most part, I think that interface is atrocious.



The Kemper is a bastard to use, it's not intuitive at all. Don't get me wrong, the unit produces amazing tones however fuck me it doesn't make sense sometimes.


----------



## c7spheres

Finally broke down and looked at it. 
- It looks cool, especially for portability. 
- The sounds are ok so far but nothing that made me say wow yet. I'm sure there's most likely some big wow sounds in there. 
- I like I didn't get a harsh, hollow or annoying type of IR feeling from it. 
- The biggest turnoff's for me are not only the touchscreen, but especially the number one turnoff for me is the enocoder button's. I like the idea of those things, but I don't trust those no matter how well they are supposedly made. I don't trust them on mixing consoles, let alone on something to be stepped on. I don't care how well they're made, that type stuff always breaks even when being careful and replacing those special compenents is always an adventure. It seems like it's going to be a nightmare after they start breaking. I probably won't consider it no matter how good it sounds just because of those. 
- I'm glad there's more competition and sure the future will bring cheaper, better units. So this is a good start.


----------



## Spinedriver

LeviathanKiller said:


> That's actually one of the things I hated about my Kemper. You had to menu dive and press a button literally 100s of times to get through various settings/pages/parameters/etc. For the most part, I think that interface is atrocious.



It's funny you say that because I felt the exact same way about the ART SGX2000 that I bought back in '98. lol 
I guess some things never change...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

LeviathanKiller said:


> That's actually one of the things I hated about my Kemper. You had to menu dive and press a button literally 100s of times to get through various settings/pages/parameters/etc. For the most part, I think that interface is atrocious.


yup easily the worst interface out of any of the current digital offerings. 

I do kind of miss my kemper, if only because now I have the amp collection to warrant profiling


----------



## Splinterhead

Tisca said:


> This just in




Aesthetically and the user interface look very cool. 
After hearing it I put the brakes on my excitement. 
Not inspiring at all. The first bit of sound that escapes a video premiering a new modeler needs to be on point and killer. First impressions are kind of a big deal. I was listening through a pair of decent monitors and the top end was not happening on the lead sound. The breakup sound just did not grab me. The cleans were respectable though.
I'm holding out for further developments.


----------



## Metropolis

Friedman HBE model might not be everyone's first choice for modern metal tones... it has lots of low end and gain structure is very "ripply", personally I don't like how it saturates in rhythm playing, it might fit to leads much better because it's kind of mushy. Peavey, Fortin, Engl and Mesa is what I would like to hear.

Interesting, there's a bright know in the amp section. I watched more closely how he dials it in, too little presence for my liking and that's partly why it sounds like that. And I wouldn't dial in gain from overdrive to my rhythm tone at all, just keep it at zero. Quite a lot of gain from amp too (obviously I don't know how this particular Friedman model reacts), overall not hundred percent my kind of tone.


----------



## Flappydoodle

I watched some of the Q&A on YouTube. They are much further behind than I had assumed. Those two units seem to be the only units in the world. The preorders was clearly a way to kickstart the manufacturing. 

Only a handful of amp model prototypes exist so far. The list of 50+ hasn’t been done yet. 

And even on the delivery date question, Doug was honest that it was a target with contingency built in, but there’s still a possibility of delays. 

Overall, I think the idea is great. Combining profiling and modelling is a good idea. Having a powerful audio interface which can also take a simultaneous DI is good. Being able to plug in 4 instruments is awesome. But if the product really is going to be supported in the long term, I can’t see any logic in placing a deposit and rushing. I’ll just wait for devices to be available and for user reviews. 

Basically, it has great potential. But it’s really just an idea at this stage.


----------



## benvigil

Vyn said:


> I actually think the 'amp profiler' as we know it with Kemper will slowly die as people seem to be leaning more towards modelling.


If history repeats itself, we just have to look to the Virus and read the writing on the wall.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

After reading through the gear page thread this is definitely more of a kickstarter idea that they have ambitions to make. Hopefully everything goes well and they can make the estimate date of shipping to the customers. If I’ve learned anything from the gaming kickstarters it’s best to keep goals manageable and don’t overpromise.



Vyn said:


> I actually think the 'amp profiler' as we know it with Kemper will slowly die as people seem to be leaning more towards modelling.



Tone match based plugins are doing very well today. Toontrack have EzMix and Joey Sturgis Tones use it for the Misha and Jason Richardson plugin. A bunch of other guys use tone matching for their plugins rather than coding a full modelled amp like neural and Fractal.


----------



## Vyn

Lorcan Ward said:


> After reading through the gear page thread this is definitely more of a kickstarter idea that they have ambitions to make. Hopefully everything goes well and they can make the estimate date of shipping to the customers. If I’ve learned anything from the gaming kickstarters it’s best to keep goals manageable and don’t overpromise.
> 
> 
> 
> Tone match based plugins are doing very well today. Toontrack have EzMix and Joey Sturgis Tones use it for the Misha and Jason Richardson plugin. A bunch of other guys use tone matching for their plugins rather than coding a full modelled amp like neural and Fractal.



I have the NDSP stuff, Helix Native, JST and Toontrack plugins. I find myself gravitating towards NSDP for almost everything these days because they are just so damned easy to use. JST Misha/Richardson sound great for nailing their respective tones however they fall down outside of that I find. And I think I've spent more time trying to capture a tone than actually playing through said tone with Toontrack.

That's all anecdotal. Do find NDSP plugins a whole lot easier to use though to the point my live rig at the moment is a 13inch Mac Air going into a 2i2 running into an EHX 44 Magnum into a 4x12 on stage.


----------



## ThisBrokenMachine

*definitely* not impressed by the demo, even if in early stage


----------



## noise in my mind

I think Fractal can breath a little bit after that demo lol!


----------



## Thaeon

noise in my mind said:


> I think Fractal can breath a little bit after that demo lol!



Sure. But I think the pressure will return a little when/if the Archetype plugins get ported as anticipated. That will change the game. I really do like the form factor and the ability to profile what I already have. It makes this a serious contender as a backup/fly rig for me.


----------



## mikah912

Thaeon said:


> Sure. But I think the pressure will return a little when/if the Archetype plugins get ported as anticipated. That will change the game. I really do like the form factor and the ability to profile what I already have. It makes this a serious contender as a backup/fly rig for me.



By that point, the FM3 will be widely available with new firmware adding new amps and functionality. It's not like amps and effects in the Archetype series can't be found on an Axe-FX III/FM3 right now. There are a ton of Friedmans that you can tweak on a much deeper level to the end of time. 5150. Fortin Grind pedal model to put in front of any of them. Bogner Shiva. ML Sound Lab IRs galore come with it too. Better reverb and delay as well. 

I'm welcoming the competition because it makes all of the players in the space work harder and offer more value. But, uh, that demo was....ill-advised.


----------



## laxu

Vyn said:


> I have the NDSP stuff, Helix Native, JST and Toontrack plugins. I find myself gravitating towards NSDP for almost everything these days because they are just so damned easy to use. JST Misha/Richardson sound great for nailing their respective tones however they fall down outside of that I find. And I think I've spent more time trying to capture a tone than actually playing through said tone with Toontrack.
> 
> That's all anecdotal. Do find NDSP plugins a whole lot easier to use though to the point my live rig at the moment is a 13inch Mac Air going into a 2i2 running into an EHX 44 Magnum into a 4x12 on stage.



I agree with this. I am testing the Archetype Plini right now and it took me very little effort to get sounds I like out of it. By comparison getting Helix Native to where I want it was more work, especially in the stock cabs department. Doesn't mean the Helix sounds worse, it just doesn't have that pre-configured, immediately good sound I was able to get from the Plini. One of the reasons I went back to real amps for non-recording uses is that they are limited and easy to use and that is something most modeler makers (and users) refuse to acknowledge by adding and requesting more crap piled in.

If you run any of the top tier plugins or hardware modelers through the some really good cab sims you are going to get nice tones out of all of them.

Sure, the demo does not sound great but that does not mean that it is representative of the unit. You can find tons of bad demos of tube amps as well as any modeler. Just a poor choice of a cab sim can spoil the goods and maybe as it was it sounded good when heard through the big studio monitors he was using. Maybe that sound would work great in a mix.

The one area where Fractal needs to be sweating is user interface, not tone or feel. They are the top dog for those and the Quad Cortex will not change that. Fractal has about 10+ years of development knowledge under their belt right now. The only area where they need to up their game is usability.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

UI and ease of use are one of the main factors for me. I could get lost in the rabbit hole of eternal tweaking nightmare in FM3 as i did in AxeFx. The simpler the better for me. But the most important things are the sound and the feel. If I could get them without any tweaking - that is the product for me. That’s why i LOVE NDSP Nolly and Plini plugins. Few clicks and I have spectacular sound and hood feel out of it.
Quad Cortex is even too much for me. Give me Nolly plugin with good chorus and hardware with 4-5 switches and i’m all good.


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> Given the writer does not care about the competitors either, what is the bias? Honest question, I didn't write it .
> 
> Feel free to pick it apart.


Maybe bias is the wrong word...whoever wrote it feels like the preorder time is too much, and therefore the product will be not finished, or will never appear or something, and then goes from that small (made up) point to extrapolate it to how they're in the wrong market/price bracket, using an exploded diagram is somehow misleading. He's acting like no company has ever done preorders on a product, and that if this doesn't drop immediately on time it will be the worst thing that ever happened or something (cough FM3), or that the company isn't directly connected to another company that has been producing its own (highly-regarded) hardware, or that the company can't make models that sound good (even though their plugins are hot shit ATM). I dunno, the whole thing reads like an angry baby stuck in a puddle of his own piss over something he (or no-one else) has even used. At least my criticisms are based on information we actually have, lol.


----------



## GunpointMetal

I hate to tell you guys, but modelers are actually pretty easy to use, too. Don't tweak stuff you wouldn't on a normal amp, treat it like a normal amp in that you get it as good as you can and use it and bam, just as easy as an amp. If you're gonna dive down the deep-edit rabbit hole and then complain that this stuff is hard to use, that's entirely on you. Just because there is a button/tab/slider available doesn't mean you have to use it, lol.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

GunpointMetal said:


> I hate to tell you guys, but modelers are actually pretty easy to use, too. Don't tweak stuff you wouldn't on a normal amp, treat it like a normal amp in that you get it as good as you can and use it and bam, just as easy as an amp. If you're gonna dive down the deep-edit rabbit hole and then complain that this stuff is hard to use, that's entirely on you. Just because there is a button/tab/slider available doesn't mean you have to use it, lol.


Tell that to the little devil sitting on my shoulder


----------



## budda

@GunpointMetal let them sleep in the bed they made .


----------



## MASS DEFECT

laxu said:


> The one area where Fractal needs to be sweating is user interface, not tone or feel. They are the top dog for those and the Quad Cortex will not change that. Fractal has about 10+ years of development knowledge under their belt right now. The only area where they need to up their game is usability.



Hmmm..not really. I never had to plug my Ax8 to a computer to do presets or rigs save for installing updates. It's actually quite easy to use. I have dedicated amp knobs and x/y switches. The UI does need some work, sure. But Fractal hardware is gig ready. The screen is like a Gameboy but hey, I had this thing since they released it and it has never failed me. Muddy boots, spilled beer, weekly gigs. The design is well thought out. I can't count how MANY TIMES that guard bar saved my set. Even my band mate's AxeII is still roadworthy.


----------



## Thaeon

GunpointMetal said:


> I hate to tell you guys, but modelers are actually pretty easy to use, too. Don't tweak stuff you wouldn't on a normal amp, treat it like a normal amp in that you get it as good as you can and use it and bam, just as easy as an amp. If you're gonna dive down the deep-edit rabbit hole and then complain that this stuff is hard to use, that's entirely on you. Just because there is a button/tab/slider available doesn't mean you have to use it, lol.



Sure. You CAN use it that way. However, it doesn't sound as good in the room as an amp does. It sounds like an amp through a mic, through monitors, and it doesn't feel right. Just twisting the amp dials doesn't respond like the amp does. Its a snapshot of a sound. Not a flow of electrons encountering resistance, capacitance, etc. You can get a good sound from them. Sure. But that doesn't mean you can treat them exactly like an amp and expect the same results. Those deeper screens help you to get the rest of the way to affecting the sound more like an actual tone stack on a real amp would. You're still stuck with it sounding like a recorded amp if you're not bypassing the IR portion into a power amp and cab. I have a tendency to try to get a modeler to sound like an amp does in the room. Because that's how I refine my sound. My ears aren't trying to refine the sound as I would hear it in a mix. So I have to tweak to get what I want. Then again to get what I want when recording. With the feel never quite getting to where I'm satisfied, I've never been happy with a modeler in a live situation.

Edit: I will also add, that I never struggled with the interface on the AxeFX II I used for a couple years.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Thaeon said:


> Sure. You CAN use it that way. However, it doesn't sound as good in the room as an amp does. It sounds like an amp through a mic, through monitors, and it doesn't feel right. Just twisting the amp dials doesn't respond like the amp does. Its a snapshot of a sound. Not a flow of electrons encountering resistance, capacitance, etc. You can get a good sound from them. Sure. But that doesn't mean you can treat them exactly like an amp and expect the same results. Those deeper screens help you to get the rest of the way to affecting the sound more like an actual tone stack on a real amp would. You're still stuck with it sounding like a recorded amp if you're not bypassing the IR portion into a power amp and cab. I have a tendency to try to get a modeler to sound like an amp does in the room. Because that's how I refine my sound. My ears aren't trying to refine the sound as I would hear it in a mix. So I have to tweak to get what I want. Then again to get what I want when recording. With the feel never quite getting to where I'm satisfied, I've never been happy with a modeler in a live situation.
> 
> Edit: I will also add, that I never struggled with the interface on the AxeFX II I used for a couple years.


If you want it to sound like a cab moving air in the room the only way to do that is to use a cab moving air in the room. Fighting with something to do something it's not even intended do is basically user error. Anyone plugging in a modeler and using cab models/IRs and expecting to feel and play like an amp next to you while pumping it through studio monitors/floor wedges/FOH is pretty much missing the point entirely. The modeler will sound just as good as the amp/cab you're modeling with the caveat that you monitor the "real thing" through a mic and monitors. If you dial in a sound that you like on stage with the amp controls and a cab, then plug it into an IR of the cab you're using and it sound bad, that means that tone sounds bad through a mic and FOH. It's not the IR sounding bad, or the modeler all of the sudden sounding bad, its a poorly-dialed preset for mic'ing/recording. I just played a show on Friday where a guitarist had GOD AWFUL FOH/in the pit tone, but he was really enjoying himself, so he must have thought it sounded good, even though to everyone else that was hearing the speakers head on or the reproduction of that tone through the PA could hear sharp, fizzly, undefined mud.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Thaeon said:


> Sure. You CAN use it that way. However, it doesn't sound as good in the room as an amp does. It sounds like an amp through a mic, through monitors, and it doesn't feel right.



Unless you use it as an "amp" through a clean power amp and conventional guitar cab. Turning off the speaker sims and running it through a nice power amp gives you that amp in a room feel. I think you can get away with it without deep diving and just using the amp controls like you would a normal amp especially in later quantum version where they got some of the sag values sorted out and baked in each amp model.


----------



## Thaeon

GunpointMetal said:


> If you want it to sound like a cab moving air in the room the only way to do that is to use a cab moving air in the room. Fighting with something to do something it's not even intended do is basically user error. Anyone plugging in a modeler and using cab models/IRs and expecting to feel and play like an amp next to you while pumping it through studio monitors/floor wedges/FOH is pretty much missing the point entirely. The modeler will sound just as good as the amp/cab you're modeling with the caveat that you monitor the "real thing" through a mic and monitors. If you dial in a sound that you like on stage with the amp controls and a cab, then plug it into an IR of the cab you're using and it sound bad, that means that tone sounds bad through a mic and FOH. It's not the IR sounding bad, or the modeler all of the sudden sounding bad, its a poorly-dialed preset for mic'ing/recording. I just played a show on Friday where a guitarist had GOD AWFUL FOH/in the pit tone, but he was really enjoying himself, so he must have thought it sounded good, even though to everyone else that was hearing the speakers head on or the reproduction of that tone through the PA could hear sharp, fizzly, undefined mud.



You're just making my point for me. I don't want to use a piece of gear like that. TO ME an AxeFX is a reason to ditch all the extra stuff like, amps and cabs. To simplify setup and have a small, self contained rig. To use it with all the same stuff as using an amp defeats the purpose from my perspective. I dial my amps in the room because I know how to make them sound good in a mix that way. Anyone who dials anything in to sound like hot garbage in a group setting is missing the point in general. Again. They can sound really good. I got great sounds out of mine. The process felt too artificial and I wasn't happy with the idea of having to carry around a power amp and cab to make it enjoyable on stage. Might as well have a head and cab at that point in my opinion. I don't honestly care about all the options of having 50 different amps live. If you can't figure out how to make one work well enough for you live, you probably should be learning your gear rather than playing shows.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Do it the Metallica way. 4x12 on stage and sims out to FOH. Nothing like a proper cab moving air behind a loud drummer.


----------



## thrashinbatman

I just don't get it. It sounds like a mic'ed up amp because that's what it's emulating. A mic'ed up amp. If you want it to sound like an amp in the room, there has to be an amp in the room. There's no replacing that. Using a modeler over FOH without a cab onstage is a totally different ballgame than bringing a rig, and has to be dealt with as so. It will never be the same thing.


----------



## nightlight

thrashinbatman said:


> I just don't get it. It sounds like a mic'ed up amp because that's what it's emulating. A mic'ed up amp. If you want it to sound like an amp in the room, there has to be an amp in the room. There's no replacing that. Using a modeler over FOH without a cab onstage is a totally different ballgame than bringing a rig, and has to be dealt with as so. It will never be the same thing.



Powered Kemper is pretty damn close though, Cab section off and power amp
feeding cab on stage. Meanwhile, XLR outputs feed FOH. 

It's pretty sick even if you have monitors on stage, actually. One thing I like to do is have my tones dialled in on a flat set of monitors in a tuned room. Then, when I go to the gig environment, I make EQ tweaks that affect only the main outputs. 

Sometimes I'll even do that at the console side of things, if the soundman is decent. It's really important to realise that PA speakers are never FRFR, so those EQ tweaks are essential, other wise you will most likely have fizzy highs and muddy bass.


----------



## nightlight

On the QC, it's okay. Let's give them some time (though I'm not giving them any money for now).


----------



## thrashinbatman

nightlight said:


> Powered Kemper is pretty damn close though, Cab section off and power amp
> feeding cab on stage. Meanwhile, XLR outputs feed FOH.
> 
> It's pretty sick even if you have monitors on stage, actually. One thing I like to do is have my tones dialled in on a flat set of monitors in a tuned room. Then, when I go to the gig environment, I make EQ tweaks that affect only the main outputs.
> 
> Sometimes I'll even do that at the console side of things, if the soundman is decent. It's really important to realise that PA speakers are never FRFR, so those EQ tweaks are essential, other wise you will most likely have fizzy highs and muddy bass.


This is the method I use. Kemper feeding FOH and powering a Mesa 4x12. Practically, all it means is that I'm in control of the tone coming from the PA instead of the sound guy. It's pretty great and you get the best of both worlds. I don't think I'd ever go solely Kemper, it feels too weird without cab noise on stage.


----------



## Thaeon

thrashinbatman said:


> I just don't get it. It sounds like a mic'ed up amp because that's what it's emulating. A mic'ed up amp. If you want it to sound like an amp in the room, there has to be an amp in the room. There's no replacing that. Using a modeler over FOH without a cab onstage is a totally different ballgame than bringing a rig, and has to be dealt with as so. It will never be the same thing.



I'd actually like it better if they would take subtract the mic from the IR. Then it would sound good through a monitor on stage. I wanted the AxeFX as a portable solution that would sound like an amp and didn't have to be loud like an amp and didn't have all of the heavy gear. Works well in a studio for me. And other people like it just fine for live. I'm not knocking its use. It just wasn't for me. I gigged it straight to PA. I gigged it with an FRFR. I just didn't want to have to lug around a 412. I've got better tone than I've ever had now though with a head and 112. Quieter stage and I'm able to get the amp into its sweet spot.


----------



## budda

Thaeon said:


> You're just making my point for me. I don't want to use a piece of gear like that. TO ME an AxeFX is a reason to ditch all the extra stuff like, amps and cabs. To simplify setup and have a small, self contained rig. To use it with all the same stuff as using an amp defeats the purpose from my perspective. I dial my amps in the room because I know how to make them sound good in a mix that way. Anyone who dials anything in to sound like hot garbage in a group setting is missing the point in general. Again. They can sound really good. I got great sounds out of mine. The process felt too artificial and I wasn't happy with the idea of having to carry around a power amp and cab to make it enjoyable on stage. Might as well have a head and cab at that point in my opinion. I don't honestly care about all the options of having 50 different amps live. If you can't figure out how to make one work well enough for you live, you probably should be learning your gear rather than playing shows.



All this instead of just learning how to dial in the mic'd tone?


----------



## GunpointMetal

There is a tangible thing for guitar for a lot people that doesn't exist (whether its actually tangible, or perceived is entirely different discussion) without a real speaker moving air in the way a player expects that somehow means it doesn't sound good....or something....I don't know... play the right notes at the right time and it sounds like music to me.


----------



## Frostbite

GunpointMetal said:


> There is a tangible thing for guitar for a lot people that doesn't exist (whether its actually tangible, or perceived is entirely different discussion) without a real speaker moving air in the way a player expects that somehow means it doesn't sound good....or something....I don't know... play the right notes at the right time and it sounds like music to me.


Music a'int music unless that speaker cab is tickling my prostate. Damn dirty millennials ruining mah music


----------



## Thaeon

GunpointMetal said:


> There is a tangible thing for guitar for a lot people that doesn't exist (whether its actually tangible, or perceived is entirely different discussion) without a real speaker moving air in the way a player expects that somehow means it doesn't sound good....or something....I don't know... play the right notes at the right time and it sounds like music to me.



Its not about the sound really for me. Its about the feel. Modelers are too responsive. Too stiff to me. Speakers seem to exacerbate the perception. For some reason, to me, the sounds coming from the modelers that I've played, just seem flat by comparison. Again, I understand this is perception. I'd LOVE for a modeler to make it so that I don't have to carry all the bullshit around with me. Seriously. My Herbert is fucking heavy. And its loud. And I want my ears to keep functioning. If they can give me the same experience without the volume and weight, shut up and take my money.


----------



## Shask

GunpointMetal said:


> There is a tangible thing for guitar for a lot people that doesn't exist (whether its actually tangible, or perceived is entirely different discussion) without a real speaker moving air in the way a player expects that somehow means it doesn't sound good....or something....I don't know... play the right notes at the right time and it sounds like music to me.


I have always thought it was because of how you grew up, and learned to play. I grew up playing actual amps. There is a certain sound and feel that goes along with that, that headphones and FRFR and all that just dont have. It never sounds or feels right to me. However, many younger people growing up now are starting on playing through their PC or iPhone or whatever, so that is what they are used to, and just don't get the "amp in the room" thing. 

Also, it depends on yours goals. Jam for fun? Record for the Mix? Band mix? etc....


----------



## thrashinbatman

Even if they did remove the mic from the IR (which would involve taking an IR in an entirely different manner because the mic is pretty important to the whole process) and manage to fully model a speaker's response across the entirety of the speaker, not just the cap or edge or whatever, it still wouldn't sound right because monitors don't behave in the same way the actual speaker does. You can't expect a studio monitor to rock the same way even a 2x12 does, and especially not a stage monitor, which isn't even under the expectation of being accurate. It would also sound pretty weird because that's not really the way we listen to guitar speakers. 

Basically, it still wouldn't be the same as into a cabinet, and if anything would be further removed from realism as using an IR of a mic'ed speaker. The closest we've come are the cabs that model speakers, but that on some level is really just trading one heavy piece of kit for another.


----------



## budda

I wonder how much of it is people being used to hearing a cab aimed at their legs, then when they try a modeller through a source at head level (sitting at a desk for ex) they dont like what they hear.

In short, who is actually eq'ing their cabs with their head at the speaker? Who here has their real amp dialled in to sound good when mic'd up?


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> I wonder how much of it is people being used to hearing a cab aimed at their legs, then when they try a modeller through a source at head level (sitting at a desk for ex) they dont like what they hear.
> 
> In short, who is actually eq'ing their cabs with their head at the speaker? Who here has their real amp dialled in to sound good when mic'd up?


From personal experience playing shows for the last ~20 years....I'd say about 25% of guitarists actually know that their instrument sounds like anywhere besides where they like to stand on stage. I've literally seen guitar players move their boards/mic stands to different parts of the stage until their guitar sounds good to them instead of just, turning down two notches, or dialing back the treble a little bit. Especially in metal. So many guys lament over gear and their ToAnZ and then they go play live and in the speaker's beam, through FOH, they sound like a can of bees with diarrhea.
Another one that makes me laugh is when a guy says "It sounds good in a band mix" from his corner of the rehearsal studio, or his side of the stage. Sorry guy, from where you're standing, you have literally no idea what the "band mix" is.


----------



## budda

Almost everyone can probably drop their treble at least 1 notch and it would be ok (on non-active eq).

Guys here who tried digital amps and didnt like them, next time you're at gig level put your head in line with your cab and please report back.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Having a 4x12 gets you both. Half aimed at your legs and half beaming to your head. Then at some point you learn how to mic a little outside the cone if you are in a smallish hall to reduce some of those grating highs. Or to not mic at all if everyone is on equal ground moshing with the band in a small room, something you cant really do with FRFR setups, since that "polished" sound coming from 500w clean speakers won't be as grinding as a real cab without a mic doing what it was built to do. 

But then, you have 4x12 sized FRFR speakers that aim to do just that. Oh man.


----------



## MetalDaze

budda said:


> I wonder how much of it is people being used to hearing a cab aimed at their legs, then when they try a modeller through a source at head level (sitting at a desk for ex) they dont like what they hear.
> 
> In short, who is actually eq'ing their cabs with their head at the speaker? Who here has their real amp dialled in to sound good when mic'd up?



That’s why we need to bring back full stacks. Screw those weeny 1x12 and 2x12’s


----------



## GunpointMetal

MetalDaze said:


> That’s why we need to bring back full stacks. Screw those weeny 1x12 and 2x12’s


Please no, lol. Most bands are already too loud to sound good in the venues they play.


----------



## Cynicanal

"Too loud to sound good"? I've heard bands with cranked full-stacks in tiny dive bars, and it sounded _glorious_.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Cynicanal said:


> "Too loud to sound good"? I've heard bands with cranked full-stacks in tiny dive bars, and it sounded _glorious_.


 me too, but they’re few and far between. Most of them equate volume to tone and it’s garbage.


----------



## budda

MetalDaze said:


> That’s why we need to bring back full stacks. Screw those weeny 1x12 and 2x12’s



What about a twin and a halfstack? A/B for clean and dirty is where it's at! Unless you have to carry it, which I did.



GunpointMetal said:


> me too, but they’re few and far between. Most of them equate volume to tone and it’s garbage.



I wonder what we fell under


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'd love to get a Peavey Stereo Chorus for dedicated cleans. I may have to do that one day.


----------



## thrashinbatman

GunpointMetal said:


> Please no, lol. Most bands are already too loud to sound good in the venues they play.


The more cabs, the better. No exceptions.


----------



## Thaeon

budda said:


> Almost everyone can probably drop their treble at least 1 notch and it would be ok (on non-active eq).
> 
> Guys here who tried digital amps and didnt like them, next time you're at gig level put your head in line with your cab and please report back.



At every practice and at every gig.


----------



## GunpointMetal

thrashinbatman said:


> The more cabs, the better. No exceptions.


Have as many cabs as you want, if I can’t hear the snare over the guitar/bass rigs, I’m gonna assume the whole band is deaf and it’s gonna sound like shit. I mean do what makes you happy, but don’t be mad when everyone goes out to smoke during your set because it’s painful to be in the room, lol.


----------



## nightlight

GunpointMetal said:


> Have as many cabs as you want, if I can’t hear the snare over the guitar/bass rigs, I’m gonna assume the whole band is deaf and it’s gonna sound like shit. I mean do what makes you happy, but don’t be mad when everyone goes out to smoke during your set because it’s painful to be in the room, lol.



Whose fault is that though? I'd blame the third rate soundman, unless there is no soundman. I've sounded like crap at more than one gig (battle of the bands more often than not) cause some soundman got paid off to make one band look good and other bands look bad. Never fails to impress the judges too (also bought off).

In these times, people will say its sour grapes. Negative nancy, Debby downer, etc etc. Because Biever smells like gold and metal smells like shit. Make of that what you will.

Oh shit, I'm ranting again.


----------



## GunpointMetal

nightlight said:


> Whose fault is that though? I'd blame the third rate soundman, unless there is no soundman. I've sounded like crap at more than one gig (battle of the bands more often than not) cause some soundman got paid off to make one band look good and other bands look bad. Never fails to impress the judges too (also bought off).
> 
> In these times, people will say its sour grapes. Negative nancy, Debby downer, etc etc. Because Biever smells like gold and metal smells like shit. Make of that what you will.
> 
> Oh shit, I'm ranting again.


Sound guy has nothing to with someone running stage volume to the point of drowning out the percussion. I have no idea what the rest of that has to with the off-topic discussion, lol. Maybe you should have paid off the sound guy first!


----------



## thrashinbatman

Just turn down to even out the extra cab space. It isn't rocket science. Even at the same volume, air getting pushed over a larger area is always good. And it looks fuckin' sweet.


----------



## budda

One person so far!

No ones mentioned when the snare is really fucking loud, and the band matches it .


----------



## nightlight

GunpointMetal said:


> Sound guy has nothing to with someone running stage volume to the point of drowning out the percussion. I have no idea what the rest of that has to with the off-topic discussion, lol. Maybe you should have paid off the sound guy first!



Yeah, no mics on the kit means your PA has no drums in it. 
https://www.google.com.sg/amp/s/www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-should-we-mic-drums-when-playing-live?amp

An unmiced kit isn't going to keep up with a 100-watt amp and 900-watt bass in a live environment. I know everybody wants to death about whether a 25-watt amp will keep up with a drummer, but a 100-watt amp will drown out a drummer, especially in a cavernous environment like a bar where everyone will hear just treble and the cymbals unless there's a soundman who mixes everything


Loud isn't bad. The soundman has to get things into a mix. Unfortunately, soundman are so bad now, everybody wants something like the QC that even they can't fuck up.

(except they will even fuck that up in a battle of the bands. First thing they do is kill the kick. If that isn't enough, they keep fiddling with various levels and shit during the performance)


----------



## MetalDaze

Ahh, the QC. It would be nice to start talking about it again


----------



## mikah912

MetalDaze said:


> Ahh, the QC. It would be nice to start talking about it again



This should help:


----------



## Frostbite

mikah912 said:


> This should help:


Interface honestly looks fantastic. I know some people don't like a touch screen on a floor unit but from an ease of use standpoint this will be hard to beat. It's natural because everyone has a smart phone at this point. If it's durable this will be a win


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I like the color. And it is quite small. Pics from a friend:


----------



## MetalDaze

Based on my painful experience backing Kickstarter projects, hardware causes bigger potential delays than software. 

It seems like the hardware and interface structure is done and now it’s down to filling in the “content” (i.e. amps, effects, etc). 

I’d rather have that than the other way around. It also seems they are demoing just the modeler piece and not the profiling.


----------



## Mathemagician

I’d like to see a guard rail on something like that. Does the helix floor have one?


----------



## Spinedriver

budda said:


> Almost everyone can probably drop their treble at least 1 notch and it would be ok (on non-active eq).
> 
> Guys here who tried digital amps and didnt like them, next time you're at gig level put your head in line with your cab and please report back.



Granted, I've only played a handful of live shows but whenever we did play, we just set up our amps the way we normally would during practice and let the sound guy do his job. Granted, there are always places that might not have a decent sound guy but letting the band decide from the stage what the mix should sound like for the crowd is a huge mistake.

As for real amps vs digital gear, I spent a good 20 years only using pedals & amps. Thing is, for a lot of people, where they live can dictate what kind of rig you have. If you live in a house with a big basement and no close neighbors, you can get away with cranking a tube head & a 212 or even 412 cab. On the other hand, if you live in a duplex or appartments, something like that will get the police knocking on your door (it's happened to me at band practice a few times).

I'd say that's why modelling gear is so popular, you can use headphones or small monitors and still have a badass tone, just not the pantleg-flapping volume of a raging amp.


----------



## narad

Man, even Rabea can't get a good sound out of it? This is weird. Contrast to Tom Quayle's Abasi archetype demo.


----------



## Lemonbaby

Spinedriver said:


> Thing is, for a lot of people, where they live can dictate what kind of rig you have. If you live in a house with a big basement and no close neighbors, you can get away with cranking a tube head & a 212 or even 412 cab.


I still don't understand why people risk getting a tinnitus when playing alone at home (or at concerts as well for that matter)? Once that beeping keeps you awake at night, you realize how stupid that whole concept is. The biggest advantage of modelers is sounding great through a studio monitor at low volumes. That alone should be the best reason to buy one...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lemonbaby said:


> I still don't understand why people risk getting a tinnitus when playing alone at home (or at concerts as well for that matter)? Once that beeping keeps you awake at night, you realize how stupid that whole concept is. The biggest advantage of modelers is sounding great through a studio monitor at low volumes. That alone should be the best reason to buy one...



Playing with a big amp is just a completely different experience. 

I certainly wouldn't recommend doing it often, especially without hearing protection. 

But I understand the appeal. Though I moved to digital gear years ago and have only looked back occasionally.


----------



## Snarpaasi

narad said:


> Man, even Rabea can't get a good sound out of it? This is weird. Contrast to Tom Quayle's Abasi archetype demo.



I think it sounded relatively good! Those tones are just not as polished as some of the Archetypes. Went to see Opeth few days ago and their opener The Vintage Caravan had some Marshalls running. Rabea nailed pretty damn close that crunch tone.


----------



## narad

Snarpaasi said:


> I think it sounded relatively good! Those tones are just not as polished as some of the Archetypes. Went to see Opeth few days ago and their opener The Vintage Caravan had some Marshalls running. Rabea nailed pretty damn close that crunch tone.



Well, to put it one way, I don't hear anything thing I didn't have in my Axe II or that I hear in the current crop of modelers. When you lead out with like that hype bomb I sort of expected something that wows.

Regarding running amps at home, get a Waza Tube Amp Expander! I love mine. Been playing 100W amps with the master > 5 at 2am. But ya, the price of admission is kind of high -- you can almost get a helix for the price of just that load box.


----------



## Snarpaasi

narad said:


> Well, to put it one way, I don't hear anything thing I didn't have in my Axe II or that I hear in the current crop of modelers. When you lead out with like that hype bomb I sort of expected something that wows.



You might be right, I only have two Neural plugins so can't speak for Axe. I agree there's a hell of a hype but created by the community rather than Neural themselves, right? This is probably because Archetypes have been such a good quality and value for money.


----------



## narad

Snarpaasi said:


> You might be right, I only have two Neural plugins so can't speak for Axe. I agree there's a hell of a hype but created by the community rather than Neural themselves, right?



Well the video was a bit over-the-top.


----------



## Spinedriver

Lemonbaby said:


> I still don't understand why people risk getting a tinnitus when playing alone at home (or at concerts as well for that matter)? Once that beeping keeps you awake at night, you realize how stupid that whole concept is. The biggest advantage of modelers is sounding great through a studio monitor at low volumes. That alone should be the best reason to buy one...



Yeah, I learned a LOOOONG time ago, even just going to local bar shows to bring along some ear plugs. Especially at band practice, not only because of the amps but drummers' cymbals can be especially piercing when you're only about 8-10 feet away.That and the fact that the neighbor's house where we were jamming was possibly 20 feet away and there was no sound proofing whatsoever in the basement, so I'd imagine they could hear it pretty good if they were sitting outside on thier deck or whatever.


----------



## nightlight

I thought the tones in the Rabea video were pretty good, much better than the initial video Neural put out.

Nothing I couldn't cop with my Kemper though. 

I guess the good thing about something new like this is the freedom of choice. Everyone's device is the best, and I'm pretty sure some dude is going to make a million bucks doing youtube videos about the Quad Cortex.

Also, if you can actually run four different instruments through this simultaneously? That would the best investment for any band (the Axe Fx III does it too iirc).


----------



## narad

This one sounded better to me:


----------



## AndiKravljaca

I've just preordered. Based on the sound of the Plini and Nolly plugins, this should be an absolute beast. I really like the form factor, and I'll probably end up using it as a desktop unit in a studio situation. Wifi, OTA updates, big touch screen, this all seems like a really modern and sensible list of features for a standalone piece of gear. I also saw the amp list on the units at NAMM and it includes enough Soldanos to keep me happy. Now we wait.


----------



## budda

Lemonbaby said:


> I still don't understand why people risk getting a tinnitus when playing alone at home (or at concerts as well for that matter)? Once that beeping keeps you awake at night, you realize how stupid that whole concept is. The biggest advantage of modelers is sounding great through a studio monitor at low volumes. That alone should be the best reason to buy one...



I can tell you probably didnt get to crank a good halfstack very often.

It's not the same thing. I didnt stop playing in a loud band because the tinnitus sucks (it's mild for me and i always wear plugs) i stopped because the work wasnt worth the reward anymore.

Playing cranked amps is a ton of fun. Add the rush of a good gig and there you have it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Rabea's video didn't sound any better than something I can get out of my Firehawk with some IRs behind it. Decent tones, but definitely not "groundbreaking" or "game changing".


----------



## mehegama

GunpointMetal said:


> Rabea's video didn't sound any better than something I can get out of my Firehawk with some IRs behind it. Decent tones, but definitely not "groundbreaking" or "game changing".


This! I don't understand the hype honestly, the sounds are good but nothing spectacular that say the ampero cannot do. And for that price? I m not sure.. I ll have to wait a bit I guess


----------



## GunpointMetal

mehegama said:


> This! I don't understand the hype honestly, the sounds are good but nothing spectacular that say the ampero cannot do. And for that price? I m not sure.. I ll have to wait a bit I guess


They really need to get it into Nolly/Tosin/Plini's hands to do a "in the mix" demo of actual usable tones. I was watching another video where the screen was taking a long-ass time to refresh (like a cheap Polaroid Android tablet or something) and it still feels like they're just kinda randomly dropping software into the th test units as they're going for demos right now. Have they given an actual amp list, or FX list, or shown any patches in use that actually take advantage of four cores of DSP or switching options. I think they should have done the hype roll out and taken some pre-orders, but waited till Summer NAMM to show it off. So far all the videos of people actually using it are just OK. For a biomimetic device, its not as impressive as one would hope.


----------



## narad

GunpointMetal said:


> For a biomimetic device, its not as impressive as one would hope.



Ah, but they didn't specify whose biomimetics.


----------



## Metropolis

Ampero sounds like two dimensional muffled garbage, just like Line 6 HD modeling and Mooer. Even Studio Devil/Atomic amp models are better in my books than Helix. To my ears this is middle ground between Fractal and Helix, and when profiling is ready it will sound spectacular. Still waiting something else than Friedman HBE, JCM800 or little glimpse of 5150.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Too bad Atomic can't make a device with a modern interface. I did like their amp models, but the on-device controls/UI were so trash I couldn't deal with it. That and the lack of FX was annoying, considering it sounded about as good as my POD HD (with the same IRs).


----------



## Lemonbaby

budda said:


> I can tell you probably didnt get to crank a good halfstack very often.


Of course. What other reasonable explanation could there possibly be?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

GunpointMetal said:


> Rabea's video didn't sound any better than something I can get out of my Firehawk with some IRs behind it. Decent tones, but definitely not "groundbreaking" or "game changing".



I read a good post saying future modelling devices will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. A Kemper can get 95% there according to critical guys like Lasse Lammert and the Axe-fx 3 certainly didn't make the Axe-Fx 2 obsolete. From here on the improvements will come in ease of use and being user friendly.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> I read a good post saying future modelling devices will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. A Kemper can get 95% there according to critical guys like Lasse Lammert and the Axe-fx 3 certainly didn't make the Axe-Fx 2 obsolete. From here on the improvements will come in ease of use and being user friendly.


So what you're saying is, this is 4% more advanced Headrush without an expression pedal.


----------



## nightlight

narad said:


> This one sounded better to me:




I liked the 2.38 mark. Definitely a more than decent ACDC tone I'd think.


----------



## R34CH

Kinda surprised by all of the people that were expecting the tones from this thing to be _otherworldly. _Of course you can expect to get the same tones from your Kemper or Axe Fx III. You're modeling (or profiling) the same amps. These digital tools can only sound "so" good - the amp you're trying to emulate. 

Based on my experience, most people were already satisfied that the Axe was doing a good enough job at making you think you were hearing warmed up tubes instead of ones and zeros. If that's the case, you can't really expect the Cortex to sound _better_ than that. Hell, people were already satisfied with the Axe II. Hasn't the adoption rate of the III been slow because people are like, "Nah, the II is good enough already..."

People buying this purely on the strength of the VSTs is interesting to me. Is the general consensus that NDSP's plugins are delivering better tones than the Axe? I've demoed the Nameless and Nolly and, yeah, they sound good. They sound like an amp. So does the Axe. 

Hell, I've seen the Axe II XL + (plus whatever other letters and symbols you want to add on the end) with MFC go for $1250 shipped. That's pretty hard to beat for something where most can't pass the blind test against a real tube amp.

To each their own, YMMV, good luck to NDSP, hope everyone has fun with the QC, (insert other disclaimers).


----------



## Lorcan Ward

R34CH said:


> Hasn't the adoption rate of the III been slow because people are like, "Nah, the II is good enough already..."



It really doesn't help sales when Fractal marketed it that way themselves. They were afraid of stepping on people's toes since they have quite a vocal community but its backfired now.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> It really doesn't help sales when Fractal marketed it that way themselves. They were afraid of stepping on people's toes since they have quite a vocal community but its backfired now.



Their hands were tied. They needed a new flagship, but the community wanted continuing support for the II. 

The II will run out of horsepower eventually, and when that happens the III sales will balloon. One of the reasons Fractal is focusing on different platforms and not jumping to have stuff on shelves is to bide some time between the II being outmoded and the III taking over. We'll see how that goes. 

That said, I've noticed III adoption keeps chugging a long. You can't expect every product to be a blockbuster. I think this is a much more sustainable pace.


----------



## Shask

MaxOfMetal said:


> Their hands were tied. They needed a new flagship, but the community wanted continuing support for the II.
> 
> The II will run out of horsepower eventually, and when that happens the III sales will balloon. One of the reasons Fractal is focusing on different platforms and not jumping to have stuff on shelves is to bide some time between the II being outmoded and the III taking over. We'll see how that goes.
> 
> That said, I've noticed III adoption keeps chugging a long. You can't expect every product to be a blockbuster. I think this is a much more sustainable pace.


I think a lot of the design choices kind of made people mad also. Like requiring new foot-controllers with no MFC smart capability, then not having the controllers in stock, going to a 3U rack unit, etc....

EDIT: Hard to switch over when you also have to buy new controllers, and a new case, and ......


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Shask said:


> I think a lot of the design choices kind of made people mad also. Like requiring new foot-controllers with no MFC smart capability, then not having the controllers in stock, going to a 3U rack unit, etc....
> 
> EDIT: Hard to switch over when you also have to buy new controllers, and a new case, and ......



That might have been a factor for some, but I don't see that chasing away many sales, it just means you bundle your MFC and small rack when you sell the II off, which is why there are so many "bundles" for sale used.


----------



## budda

I debated buying II XL/MFC bundles because the price was good, but at the end of the day I generally go for the fancier thing. Still getting frequent updates and a couple free IR packs helps too.

Hopefully picking up my 3 on sunday. Not buying the fractal footswitch saves me a good chunk of money as well.

The real test will be in the winter when people finally receive their QC's and shoot them out with real amps and FAS/L6 gear.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Unit looks quite cool - quite small (read: shove that in the bag for fly-ins and it's sorted), good number of switches which hopefully should prevent the need for on stage tap dancing, and the sounds seemed quite alright. Seeing as with modelers these days my most frequent gripe isn't the tones I can build but rather the feel when I play I'm curious to give it a spin and see how it behaves!


----------



## technomancer

Lorcan Ward said:


> I read a good post saying future modelling devices will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. A Kemper can get 95% there according to critical guys like Lasse Lammert and the Axe-fx 3 certainly didn't make the Axe-Fx 2 obsolete. From here on the improvements will come in ease of use and being user friendly.



You've also got to factor in that it is REALLY obvious Neural only just started working on the models for this. It will be interesting to see what it sounds like when they're closer to launch and have actually worked on that aspect of the product.


----------



## Shask

technomancer said:


> You've also got to factor in that it is REALLY obvious Neural only just started working on the models for this. It will be interesting to see what it sounds like when they're closer to launch and have actually worked on that aspect of the product.


The more I see about it, the more I think it would have been better for them to improve it for the next year, and then introduce it at NAMM next year.


----------



## DudeManBrother

Shask said:


> The more I see about it, the more I think it would have been better for them to improve it for the next year, and then introduce it at NAMM next year.


They needed money to develop it, hence the interest free $200k loan they requested in the form of preorders.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Lorcan Ward said:


> I read a good post saying future modelling devices will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. A Kemper can get 95% there according to critical guys like Lasse Lammert and the Axe-fx 3 certainly didn't make the Axe-Fx 2 obsolete. From here on the improvements will come in ease of use and being user friendly.



Totally agree. When the 10 year old Kemper can still fool professionals, musicians with their own signature models, and even the amp manufacturer themselves, what does anybody expect a newer device to do? It’s finishing returns. 

And hell, who even says that real amps sound ‘better’? That depends massively on the skill of the person recording it. You could easily have horrible recorded tones from a real amp. And since at least 60%, or more, of the tone comes from the speaker/mic (or IR), differences between models is more about character and feel than sound. I’m often surprised how different something feels when playing but how similar the recording ends up being. 

What I want is a really great interface and powerful hardware unit with lots of connections. It can be a ‘one stop shop’ for all guitar tones for an entire band or home recording. That’s a good step forward. 

Great amp models is the absolute baseline requirement. And with Neural, I think we’re all taking that for granted. 

The final piece of the puzzle will be how widely adopted the profiling is. Ideally there will be a very easy method for sharing profiles and there will be commercial profiles available, just like for Kemper.


----------



## c7spheres

^ 
Pretty good heavy tone @ 2:30 for about 10 seconds.


----------



## Frostbite

Much better show of the tones it can produce


----------



## technomancer

Ok, what in the hell is the quilt top Majesty at 14:17 in the Ola video?!?!?!?

EDIT Purple Nebula Majesty... damn


----------



## Backsnack

GuitarSetup said:


>



The tones that were dialed up for Ola in this video sounded like crap imo. Not his fault, but I'm surprised they didn't have some better high gain tones ready to go at the booth.

Rabea's video sounds WAY better.


----------



## Lianoroto

Backsnack said:


> The tones that were dialed up for Ola in this video sounded like crap imo. Not his fault, but I'm surprised they didn't have some better high gain tones ready to go at the booth.
> 
> Rabea's video sounds WAY better.


Ola's video was recorded with a camera mic in a somewhat shitty situation. It could sound both worse or better in real life. Who knows.

It does sound like the Quad Cortex has a general "blanket sound" that is very much covering all the proper demos so far. Kinda like the Pod HD, but not sure I would call it a bad sound in the same way the Pod HD shits all over its tones. Will be interesting to see what happens when the product exits the beta stage.

I hope the Quad Cortex nails the feel of the VST amps. That is about the only real differentiator I sense at the top of the current modelling game.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Honestly I’m underwhelmed by the sounds so far. I hope they make it sounding more like their plugins.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I haven't checked out Beas video yet, and I understand this is a prototype with hopefully unfinished models... But yeah, they need work.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I understand the need to build hype, but it would be nice if they were a little more done baking this thing before taking it live. Maybe shoot for Summer NAMM. Oh well.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

A few others have nailed it there isn't some groundbreaking new sound to be had because it's just amp modelling. Providing no hardware failure my Helix will still sound fantastic and totally serviceable years from now, it will really come down to what form factor your prefer and other features like I/Os available, user interface ect ect. 

I've never messed with the plugins but I think part of the appeal of them is the quality of the sound for a relatively small financial outlay, if you are spending money for a flagship level unit I feel like you may be more critical of performance.

Either way I hope the launch goes well when it does happen, like others have said the more people pushing the limits of hardware design and user interface and all that stuff help the products get better so keep it up.

I'm sure if Line 6 released an updated Helix touch people would be all over it.


----------



## Shask

Dineley said:


> I'm sure if Line 6 released an updated Helix touch people would be all over it.


Line 6 introduced the new POD GO, which a lot of people seem to be happy about.... Helix modeling, color screen, less I/O, only $449.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

Shask said:


> Line 6 introduced the new POD GO, which a lot of people seem to be happy about.... Helix modeling, color screen, less I/O, only $449.



Yeah I saw that but it's not meant to compete with full size Helix, Axe FX III ect, and I think the Neural unit is meant to be in that weight class.


----------



## GunpointMetal

I really wanted to see what kind of crazy shit/full band presets you could make with all that supposed DSP available, maybe show off some cool switching options (momentary/scenes), at least show it connecting to a device via internal Wi Fi. Demos sound like demos, nothing amazing, pretty average for people who haven't sat with it a minute to really dial it in. I think they should have waited till Summer NAMM and planned for a winter release, just because they really didn't have anything to show besides a cool looking box and a list of yet-to-be-implemented promises of things. I mean, if the modeling isn't engineered for the DSP chips, they might only get two of the lines of FX before the thing is full or whatever. This is barely even a proof of concept at this point.


----------



## axxessdenied

The hardware is done. A lot of the modelling is already in VST format for testing. Big thing now is porting over the code by their DSP team. I think they'll have a ton of good feedback from people trying it at winter-namm to run with and make the unit solid. The biggest hold up would be the hardware part which is done. The coding portion is just a matter of man-hours which can easily be planned for.


----------



## Backsnack

Lianoroto said:


> Ola's video was recorded with a camera mic in a somewhat shitty situation. It could sound both worse or better in real life. Who knows.
> 
> It does sound like the Quad Cortex has a general "blanket sound" that is very much covering all the proper demos so far. Kinda like the Pod HD, but not sure I would call it a bad sound in the same way the Pod HD shits all over its tones. Will be interesting to see what happens when the product exits the beta stage.
> 
> I hope the Quad Cortex nails the feel of the VST amps. That is about the only real differentiator I sense at the top of the current modelling game.



The Cortex should be able to cover a wide range of sounds, since it's a modeler.



Wolfhorsky said:


> Honestly I’m underwhelmed by the sounds so far. I hope they make it sounding more like their plugins.


Did you not read the features that you can load plugins you already own into it? Or are you talking about the built-in amp models that are going to be available out of the box?



GunpointMetal said:


> I really wanted to see what kind of crazy shit/full band presets you could make with all that supposed DSP available, maybe show off some cool switching options (momentary/scenes), at least show it connecting to a device via internal Wi Fi. Demos sound like demos, nothing amazing, pretty average for people who haven't sat with it a minute to really dial it in. I think they should have waited till Summer NAMM and planned for a winter release, just because they really didn't have anything to show besides a cool looking box and a list of yet-to-be-implemented promises of things. I mean, if the modeling isn't engineered for the DSP chips, they might only get two of the lines of FX before the thing is full or whatever. This is barely even a proof of concept at this point.


I agree having a full band use it in a performance would have been more impressive.

Also I think they could have set up an A/B station showing the amp capture process and giving people the chance to compare a tube amp & cab to the captured sound. Or maybe the NAMM floor is way too busy and noisy to be able to tell a difference? The upcoming youtube reviewers will put that through its paces either way.

These two things I mentioned above are what make it stand above other modelers in this price range. (Though I suppose a full Helix can do a band as well, or at least a guitarist and vocalist with plenty of room to spare).


----------



## Doug Castro

Ola's video was shot with a camera mic so it's not really representing the unit's actual sound.

The first tests we did a few months back were using our plugin algorithms, since those are tried and true, and after porting them to SHARC they were indistinguishable in sound and feel from our software products, so if you like those, do not worry, that's the quality you're getting with Quad Cortex.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

While I still prefer the sound of Fractal's products, the tone definitely wasn't unusable. I didn't get to tweak it much as it was a "guided" demo as I was playing. I'm interested in how the turnable stomp-switches will behave when actually getting stepped (there's a floor mode that locks turning somehow). Lastly, I'm not sure I understand the overall appeal of the unit at $1600 when Fractal is letting the FM-3 sell for $999. That said, the Quad Cortex interface was awesome. It felt like using the Axe-Edit III computer software but on the device itself thanks to the touchscreen controls. I think anyone not sold on Fractal's stuff will like this unit a lot. The inclusion of wireless connectivity without an up-charge is a smooth move too.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Backsnack said:


> Also I think they could have set up an A/B station showing the amp capture process and giving people the chance to compare a tube amp & cab to the captured sound. Or maybe the NAMM floor is way too busy and noisy to be able to tell a difference? The upcoming youtube reviewers will put that through its paces either way.



I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that this simply isn't ready yet. From the Q&A videos, the software all seems like very early days.

And when people have asked for more details about the profiling they have shied away from saying how this actually works. Probably part of that is because they must have had to do some workaround to avoid the Kemper patent. Add whatever AI terminology you want, but at the end of the day, they're still most likely going to be playing a known signal through a guitar amp/cab/mic setup, then capturing the processed sound and analysing it for gain, EQ response etc. 

I do really like the company, love their plugins, and I hope this QC lives up to all the hype. But according to what I've seen, it is very early days and they are promising a lot by September. Fingers crossed that they can deliver.


----------



## rokket2005

The problem with them waiting to unveil it at summer NAMM is that no one gives a shit about summer NAMM.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Probably part of that is because they must have had to do some workaround to avoid the Kemper patent. Add whatever AI terminology you want, but at the end of the day, they're still most likely going to be playing a known signal through a guitar amp/cab/mic setup, then capturing the processed sound and analysing it for gain, EQ response etc.



Kemper doesn't have a patent on on that. This general problem is well established in DSP (signal matching), and methods of doing it existed long before the Kemper. They only have a patent on a very specific way of doing it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Kemper doesn't have a patent on on that. This general problem is well established in DSP (signal matching), and methods of doing it existed long before the Kemper. They only have a patent on a very specific way of doing it.



Then why has nobody made a better Kemper? The thing has been out since Apple released the iPhone 3G, and they haven’t updated it once. On the Kemper forum they always say it’s because that general profiling method (play known signal, monitor return) is patented. Of course, I haven’t read their patent for myself, but that’s what they use as explanation for why Axe FX, Helix and others only have EQ marching and not profiling. 

If that’s not the case, I am really surprised if no competing profiler has been invented in the decade that has passed.


----------



## Lemonbaby

Flappydoodle said:


> Of course, I haven’t read their patent for myself, but that’s what they use as explanation for why Axe FX, Helix and others only have EQ marching and not profiling.


WTF is "EQ marching"? 

The method used at Fractal and Line6 is actually "modelling" - hence the products being called modelers.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Lemonbaby said:


> WTF is "EQ marching"?
> 
> The method used at Fractal and Line6 is actually "modelling" - hence the products being called modelers.



EQ matching. Typo. 

And yes they are modellers, but Axe FX also has a tone matching feature. Not sure about Helix. Axe Fx (and Positive Gris BIAS) uses only basic EQ matching that you can also easily do in a DAW. That gets pretty close, but it can’t account for gain levels, attack character, sag and other properties that profiling can. 

Given the popularity of those competing units, and the appeal of the Kemper, I can’t imagine why Fractal or Line6 didn’t add that feature to their products. The patent seems like the most logical obstacle. IMO, if Fractal had added proper profiling to the AXFX, the Kemper would have been dead years ago. Then you’d have their great modelling, and the ability to take your studio tones on the road with total reproducibility.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Then why has nobody made a better Kemper? The thing has been out since Apple released the iPhone 3G, and they haven’t updated it once. On the Kemper forum they always say it’s because that general profiling method (play known signal, monitor return) is patented.



Just go read the patent. People probably saw the diagram and shut their brains off. The latter points are quite specific in ways that seem easily avoidable.



Flappydoodle said:


> Axe Fx (and Positive Gris BIAS) uses only basic EQ matching that you can also easily do in a DAW. That gets pretty close, but it can’t account for gain levels, attack character, sag and other properties that profiling can.



Well think about it. The Axe has component models for gain type / level / attack / sag, that would be easy to iterate over given a fixed EQ to further match the profiles. You cannot ask why Cliff did not do many of the obvious things that would have made his product better. Hubris, I imagine. Or he's super wealthy and has just lost that deep set need to innovate.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Profiling is just EQ matching but with the rig and not the guitar. They take a snapshot of the power amp, amp and pedals and then the impulse of the cab + mic but with their way of taking an impulse it’s always coloured by the rest of the rig so you can’t really separate the two without weird results.

Kemper has their own basic modelling, id need to try one again but I think it’s the same amp used as a blueprint for everything which the EQ match is then layered on. This is where the Cortex could shine by having lots of amps depending on the gain which would benefit offer much more usable EQ options.

Who knows why Fractal didn’t want to offer an amp match feature along with regular EQ matching. Maybe he didn’t want to step on Kemper’s toes. I found the EQ matching on the axe-fx 2 a bit poor. I got much better results using Ozone with a regular amp sim so I think the results would have been a bit lacklustre on the axe. 

Like anything in the gear world. All it takes is one person to copy another persons work and then it’s free game for everyone!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> EQ matching. Typo.
> 
> And yes they are modellers, but Axe FX also has a tone matching feature. Not sure about Helix. Axe Fx (and Positive Gris BIAS) uses only basic EQ matching that you can also easily do in a DAW. That gets pretty close, but it can’t account for gain levels, attack character, sag and other properties that profiling can.
> 
> Given the popularity of those competing units, and the appeal of the Kemper, I can’t imagine why Fractal or Line6 didn’t add that feature to their products. The patent seems like the most logical obstacle. IMO, if Fractal had added proper profiling to the AXFX, the Kemper would have been dead years ago. Then you’d have their great modelling, and the ability to take your studio tones on the road with total reproducibility.



The Kemper patent isn't a detailed description of the specifics of their exact process/technology, it's just a fairly broad overview.

I'm assuming Fractal, Line 6, etc. have done cost/benefit analysis of putting the time and money into reverse engineering what the Kemper does and it's yet to pique their interest. Even with the road map the patent spells out, it's not easy to build a profiler from scratch. 

If it was that easy, one of the many Chinese clone shops would have done it already. 

I think the product is different enough that Fractal and Line 6 don't feel like the Kemper is stealing market share 1:1. I say that as someone who owns all three. They each serve a purpose.


----------



## narad

Lorcan Ward said:


> Profiling is just EQ matching but with the rig and not the guitar.



I think that's not a fair description, since EQ is essentially only concerned with time invariant phenomena, whereas the Kemper profiling is mostly trying to capture nonlinear effects (on the distorted tones).


----------



## Spinedriver

Just to add my ...

Just like others have said, would it be worth the time & money to develop 'profiling' vs just using 'eq matching' ? As I see it the reason why Kemper isn't 'cornering the market' is because:
- a) not everyone has a stack of amps they want to profile, so that particular feature is kind of irrelevant. 
- b) Perhaps the eq matching of the Helix, Axe-Fx, etc... for a lot of people is close enough so it doesn't really make a difference if it's an actual 'profile' or just an eq match.
- c) From what I understand, the real weak point of the Kemper is that their effects section is pretty weak in comparison to the Axe & Helix. 

So there will always be some that'll prefer one over the other for various reasons just like everything else, Coke vs Pepsi, McDonalds vs Burger King, etc... Also, in a lot of cases some will just buy both and since they are both around the same price point there really is no way to say one is actually better than the other because they each do things better than the other. It really is a mystery though why Kemper hasn't updated it in roughly a decade except to make a floor version. Even more, it makes zero sense as to why they've never bothered to make some kind of software editor for it. That would be a good reason for people to want to buy an Axe or Helix over a Kemper right there (yes I do believe there is a user based editor out there that is available but as far as I know it wasn't commissioned or authorized by Kemper, so it kinda doesn't count because if something goes wrong with the editor and it bricks the Kemper, they won't fix it for free unlike the others because their editors are 'official').


----------



## budda

I think part of it is that Fractal has spent much of their resources in deconstructing all these real amps - why would they then want to profile something they've already digitally rebuilt? That seems counterproductive in a way.

I'm curious about the tone match in the III, but no idea if/when I'll get around to trying it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Just go read the patent. People probably saw the diagram and shut their brains off. The latter points are quite specific in ways that seem easily avoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> Well think about it. The Axe has component models for gain type / level / attack / sag, that would be easy to iterate over given a fixed EQ to further match the profiles. You cannot ask why Cliff did not do many of the obvious things that would have made his product better. Hubris, I imagine. Or he's super wealthy and has just lost that deep set need to innovate.



Yeah, possibly. Seems insane to me that the Kemper is 10 years old and nobody else has released a profiler. Adding it to Axe FX just seems like a total no-brainer, and 10 years is easily enough time to figure out how to do it. 

I guess we don’t know what goes on in the brain of the people developing these products but I suspect the patent is somewhat of a deterrent. Of course the description will try to be broad, and a smart person can find ways around the patent claims and specification, but I suspect that Line6, Helix etc must have considered it at some point and decided not to. 



Lorcan Ward said:


> .
> 
> Kemper has their own basic modelling, id need to try one again but I think it’s the same amp used as a blueprint for everything which the EQ match is then layered on. This is where the Cortex could shine by having lots of amps depending on the gain which would benefit offer much more usable EQ options.



Yes, I heard the same. There are a small number of models and the Kemper will choose which one best matches the properties of the amp it is profiling, then does gain and EQ matching. 



> Who knows why Fractal didn’t want to offer an amp match feature along with regular EQ matching. Maybe he didn’t want to step on Kemper’s toes. I found the EQ matching on the axe-fx 2 a bit poor. I got much better results using Ozone with a regular amp sim so I think the results would have been a bit lacklustre on the axe.
> 
> Like anything in the gear world. All it takes is one person to copy another persons work and then it’s free game for everyone!



Yeah, I wonder too. Can’t imagine not wanting to step on Kempers toes, unless it was for legal reasons. They’re direct competitors, albeit with different ways of doing things. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> The Kemper patent isn't a detailed description of the specifics of their exact process/technology, it's just a fairly broad overview.
> 
> I'm assuming Fractal, Line 6, etc. have done cost/benefit analysis of putting the time and money into reverse engineering what the Kemper does and it's yet to pique their interest. Even with the road map the patent spells out, it's not easy to build a profiler from scratch.
> 
> If it was that easy, one of the many Chinese clone shops would have done it already.
> 
> I think the product is different enough that Fractal and Line 6 don't feel like the Kemper is stealing market share 1:1. I say that as someone who owns all three. They each serve a purpose.



Yeah, this sounds plausible. Though if I were running Fractal or Line6, I’d definitely add profiling since there is clearly a demand, and there’s also clearly a market for selling add-on packs etc. And since Kemper apparently isn’t interested in updating their hardware or user experience, Fractal or Line6 could have easily stepped in. I’m shocked it’s taken so long for a company (Neural) to finally offer models and profiling in one unit. 

My overall impression is that the Kemper guys got pretty lucky, at the right place and time, and they’ve just been milking it. No excuse for not having proper editing software, or updating hardware for 10 years. It’s iPhone 3G age technology. Also, if you read the official Kemper forum and it’s like a cult, haha. They’re in massive levels of denial about any need to update, and how great it is that the unit is 10 years old. But I’m sure if Kemper 2.0 is announced, they’ll be all over it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

budda said:


> I think part of it is that Fractal has spent much of their resources in deconstructing all these real amps - why would they then want to profile something they've already digitally rebuilt? That seems counterproductive in a way.
> 
> I'm curious about the tone match in the III, but no idea if/when I'll get around to trying it.



I’m thinking more like they could offer profiling in the hardware. So people can profile their real amps. And there’s obviously a big market for selling profiles. It would be massively improving their product, and deterring people from choosing the competing products. 

Also, to my understanding, even good models aren’t going to really nail a real setup (amp, cab, mics etc) as well as a profile. There are shitloads of Mesa cab, V30, SM57 IRs out there, and they all still sound different. Chances of perfectly matching your setup without your own user-made IR is slim. And if you’re going to hook everything up to make your own IR, you might as well just profile the amp IMO.


----------



## Shask

narad said:


> Just go read the patent. People probably saw the diagram and shut their brains off. The latter points are quite specific in ways that seem easily avoidable.
> 
> 
> 
> Well think about it. The Axe has component models for gain type / level / attack / sag, that would be easy to iterate over given a fixed EQ to further match the profiles. You cannot ask why Cliff did not do many of the obvious things that would have made his product better. Hubris, I imagine. Or he's super wealthy and has just lost that deep set need to innovate.


I cant speak for Cliff, but from posts I have read from him, it sounds like he is not that impressed with the Kemper process, and feels like the methods he uses for Fractal is superior. There is no reason to copy a sub-par design. He says Kemper only has 7-8 base models, and then just applies a match-EQ over the top of them.


----------



## Lemonbaby

Flappydoodle said:


> Given the popularity of those competing units, and the appeal of the Kemper, I can’t imagine why Fractal or Line6 didn’t add that feature to their products.


They have a different approach (which makes more sense IMHO). Ideally, you'd perform an electron level SPICE model of the complete PCB and add a dynamic IR for the cabinet. Not possible today with the CPU power at hand, but with today's units you're already close enough to fool anyone in an A/B blind test...


----------



## GunpointMetal

Shask said:


> I cant speak for Cliff, but from posts I have read from him, it sounds like he is not that impressed with the Kemper process, and feels like the methods he uses for Fractal is superior. There is no reason to copy a sub-par design. He says Kemper only has 7-8 base models, and then just applies a match-EQ over the top of them.


That's honestly what it felt like when I was test-driving one. Especially if the EQ needed to be adjusted more than +/- 2 to get where I wanted. Felt like adjusting a home stereo EQ, not an amp EQ. I don't own any tube amps and haven't in well over decade, so I would be relying on pre-produced profiles and with how the adjustments worked, there was no way I was gonna have a good time. I can see it you have some amps you just don't wanna carry around anymore. I prefer the component modeling approach, and I didn't think the Kemper FELT any better than my Helix or the Fractal stuff I've tried.


----------



## LeviathanKiller

GunpointMetal said:


> That's honestly what it felt like when I was test-driving one. Especially if the EQ needed to be adjusted more than +/- 2 to get where I wanted. Felt like adjusting a home stereo EQ, not an amp EQ. I don't own any tube amps and haven't in well over decade, so I would be relying on pre-produced profiles and with how the adjustments worked, there was no way I was gonna have a good time. I can see it you have some amps you just don't wanna carry around anymore. I prefer the component modeling approach, and I didn't think the Kemper FELT any better than my Helix or the Fractal stuff I've tried.



Yeah, I experienced the same. IMO, you buy profiles you like as-is with the Kemper. Adjustments are pretty much a no-go. The EQ controls don't behave very well past a certain point and that is even more pronounced with high gain profiles.

I've actually done pretty well using tone-matching on the Axe-Fx II XL+ (haven't tried it on the III yet actually lol). I'm no idiot though so I started with the exact amp and similar cab that I was trying to match the tone of, got it fairly close with my own EQ adjustments by using the tone match EQ comparison graph (checking were heavy adjustments were being made automatically and then trying to do that work on my own instead for a better sound), and THEN implemented the final tone match after I was already fairly close. Using that methodology, stuff was spot on enough for me. The cool thing is you can change some stuff up if you like so the feel is different than the original but the sound is fairly the same (power sag, etc).


----------



## Flappydoodle

Lemonbaby said:


> They have a different approach (which makes more sense IMHO). Ideally, you'd perform an electron level SPICE model of the complete PCB and add a dynamic IR for the cabinet. Not possible today with the CPU power at hand, but with today's units you're already close enough to fool anyone in an A/B blind test...



They are different approaches, but if Fractal could add profiling, I just don't see why they wouldn't. It wouldn't devalue their existing models, effects etc at all. But it would add a lot of value for people who want to clone studio setups or trade profiles, as Kemper has proven. Seems to me that profiling capability would be a lot easier to add than creating 200+ amp models from scratch, each having shitloads of unique parameters. 

I do agree that both units can give tones that are indistinguishable from the real thing, and often better IMO.


----------



## youngthrasher9

Neural just released the full list of models on the QC. Looks like they will all be available by September. The list is freakin extensive, but it doesn’t show any overlap with the plugins. Maybe it’s just a matter of time!


----------



## GunpointMetal

youngthrasher9 said:


> Neural just released the full list of models on the QC. Looks like they will all be available by September. The list is freakin extensive, but it doesn’t show any overlap with the plugins. Maybe it’s just a matter of time!


 It was already mentioned that the plugin amps will be available, but only if you own the plugin. So you can't buy the QC and get the artist plugins or amp manufacturer-specific ones. Seems lame to me, but I'm guessing the artist payment stuff works better if they don't have to cut them in on sales of each QC.


----------



## youngthrasher9

GunpointMetal said:


> It was already mentioned that the plugin amps will be available, but only if you own the plugin. So you can't buy the QC and get the artist plugins or amp manufacturer-specific ones. Seems lame to me, but I'm guessing the artist payment stuff works better if they don't have to cut them in on sales of each QC.



Ah! That’s some good info. Thanks.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I wonder if they will keep making plugins after this. I was hoping they’d make a 5150 plugin.

That’s an extensive amp list for anyone needing to record rock or metal. With so much range most people wouldn’t need the profiling features much like the tonematch feature on the axe-fx.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> I wonder if they will keep making plugins after this. I was hoping they’d make a 5150 plugin.
> 
> That’s an extensive amp list for anyone needing to record rock or metal. With so much range most people wouldn’t need the profiling features.


Isn't there a modded 5150 in the Nolly plugin?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

There is but all 4 of the Nolly amps are heavily modded, same with the pedals so they react quite differently in a few ways to their originals. I’d just love to hear their take on the 5150 sound since everyone’s has a different flavour and recognisable sound.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

*MODELS BY SEPTEMBER 2020*
*Guitar Amplifiers*
This entire list consists of full-circuit-models. The Neural Captures list will be added later.


Double RVB Normal: Fender® 65 Twin Reverb®
Double RVB Vibrato: Fender® 65 Twin Reverb®
Rols Jazz CH120: Roland® Jazz Chorus 120
UK C30: Vox® AC30®
UK C30 Top Boost: Vox® AC30® Top Boost
UK C15: Vox® AC15®
UK C15 Top Boost: Vox® AC15® Top Boost
BF DLX RVB Normal: Fender® Blackface Deluxe Reverb®
BF DLX RVB Vibrato: Fender® Blackface Deluxe Reverb®
BF Super RVB Normal: Fender® Blackface Super Reverb®
BF Super RVB Vibrato: Fender® Blackface Super Reverb®
BF Prince RVB: Fender® Blackface Princeton Reverb®
Vishnu: Bogner® Shiva® Clean Channel
Hiw103: Hiwatt® DR103®
Captain 50 Clean: Morgan® SW50® Clean
California Star 100W Ch1: Mesa® Boogie Lonestar® 100W Channel 1
California Star 100W Ch2: Mesa® Boogie Lonestar® 100W Channel 2
British Plexi Bright: Marshall® Super Lead 100 Bright
British Plexi Normal: Marshall® Super Lead 100 Normal
British Plexi Patch: Marshall® Super Lead® 100 Jumpered 
Plexi 50 Bright: Marshall® Lead 50 Bright 
Plexi 50 Normal: Marshall® Lead 50 Normal 
British Plexi 50 Patch: Marshall® Lead 50 Jumpered
British 2203: Marshall® JCM800®
British UB Rhythm: Marshall® Jubilee® Rhythm Channel
British UB Lead: Marshall® Jubilee® Lead Channel
British TM45 Bright: Marshall® JTM 45 Bright
British TM45 Normal: Marshall® JTM 45 Normal
British TM45 Patch: Marshall® JTM 45 Jumpered
PV-505 Rhythm: Peavey® 6505 Rhythm
PV-505 Lead: Peavey® 6505 Lead
EV III Blue: EVH® 5150 III Blue
EV III Red: EVH® 5150 III Red
California Rectifier Orange: Mesa® Boogie® Dual Rectifier® Orange
California Rectifier Red: Mesa® Boogie® Dual Rectifier® Red
California Tremo Orange: Mesa® Boogie® Trem-O-Verb® Orange
California Tremo Red: Mesa® Boogie® Trem-O-Verb® Red 
D-Cell Herb Ch1: Diezel® Herbert® Channel 1
D-Cell Herb Ch2: Diezel® Herbert® Channel 2
D-Cell Herb Ch3: Diezel® Herbert® Channel 3
D-Cell H4 Ch3: Diezel® VH4® Channel 3
D-Cell H4 Ch4: Diezel® VH4® Channel 4
FreeBe 100 Clean: Friedman® HBE100® Clean Channel
FreeBe 100 Rhythm: Friedman® HBE100® BE Channel
FreeBe 100 Lead: Friedman® HBE100® HBE Channel
Uber: Bogner® Uberschall®
Solo 100 Lead: Soldano® SLO® 100 Lead
Solo 100 Crunch: Soldano® SLO® 100 Crunch
California 2C+ Lead: Mesa® Boogie® Mark IIC+ Lead
California 2C+ Clean: Mesa® Boogie® Mark IIC+ Clean


*Cabsim*
By ML Sound Lab – more to be added.


412 California Vintage: Mesa® Boogie traditional straight with UK Celestion® V30
412 D-Cell = Diezel® straight guitar cabinet with Celestion® V30
412 EV = EVH® straight guitar cabinet with Celestion® G12EVH
212 Tweed = Fender® 2×12 with Celestion A-Type speaker
412 British 1960 = Marshall® 1960 with UK made Greenback G12M-25
412 British 1971 = Marshall® 1960 with Pulsonic-era Greenbacks
412 California Oversize = Mesa® Boogie Oversize with UK made Celestion® V30
412 Godzilla = Zilla Cabs® Oversized with Celestion® Creamback G12H-75
412 British Silver = Marshall® 1987 Silver Jubilee 2551B with Celestion® G12T-75 speakers
412 Crush = Orange® PPC412 with UK Celestion® Vintage 30
412 Ubercab = Bogner® Uberkab guitar cabinet rear-loaded with Celestion® Vintage 30 and G12T-T75
212 Sur = Suhr® 2×12 with Celestion® V-Type speaker
212 UK C30 = Vox® AC30 combo with 60s Silver Bell with highly sought after Pulsonic cones
410 Bass CL = Ampeg® SVT-410HE 4×10 bass cabinet (not sure what speakers they use)
D410C Darkglass® = Darkglass® D410C loaded with custom Eminence® ceramic drivers


*Bass Amplifiers*

Bass Super Valve Ampeg® SVT®
California Bass 400 Mesa Boogie® Bass 400+®
Bass Flip-top Ch 64’ Ampeg® B15 – 1964 Channel
Bass Flip-top Ch 66′ Ampeg® B15 – 1966 Channel
Bass Flip-top Patch Ampeg® B15 – Jumped
G400K Gallien Krueger® 400RB®
British Bass 50 Bright: Marshall® Super Bass® 50 Bright
British Bass 50 Normal: Marshall® Super Bass® 50 Normal
British Bass 50 Patch: Marshall® Super Bass® 50 Jumpered


*Guitar Distortion*

Fuzz Pi EHX® Big Muff Pi®
Chief BD2 Boss® BD-2
Chief DS1 Boss® DS-1
Chief MT Boss® MT-2
Chief OD1 Boss® OD-1
Chief SD1 Boss® SD-1
OD250 DOD® 250
Freeman BOD Friedman® BE-OD®
Round Fuzz Ge Dallas Arbiter® Fuzz Face®
Myth Drive Klon® Centaur®
British Blues Marshall® Blues Breaker®
British Governor Marshall® Guv’nor®
Compulsive Drive Fulltone® OCD®
Octofuzz Octa Fuzz®
Rodent Drive ProCo® Rat®
Rage Boost Range Master®
Green 808 Ibanez® TS808®
Exotic Xotic® BB Preamp®


*Bass Overdrives*

Darkglass® Microtubes B3K®
Darkglass® Vintage Microtubes®
BDDI: Tech 21® Bass Driver DI® 
Soviet Fuzz: EHX® Russian Big Muff®
Animate Fuzz: Human Gear® Animato® 
Brass Matters: Maestro® Brass Master®


*Compressors*

Jewel Comp Diamond® Compressor®
Legendary 87: 1176® 
Dynamic Comp MXR® Dynacomp® 
Solid State Comp SSL® Bus 
Super Symmetry Darkglass® Super Symmetry®
Hairlow Bogner® Harlow®
Neural Compressor (Harlow Tweak)


*Delays*

Tape
Analog
Digital
Multitap
Ping-pong


*Reverbs*

Room 
Ambience
Hall
Cave
Shimmer
Plate
Modulated Reverb
Reverse Reverb
Swell Reverb
Singularity Reverb
Interstellar Reverb
Spring Reverb


*Modulations*

Vintage Chorus
Dual Chorus
8 Voice Chorus
Dimension D
Vibrato
Tremolo
Tremolo/Panner
Flanger
Phaser
Univibe
Rotary


*Pitch*

Analog Octave

Polyphonic Octaver

Detune

Digital Octave

Wham: Whammy®

Intelligent Pitch

Drop


*Wah and Envelope*

British Wah: Vox® Wah
Crying Wah: Dunlop® Wah
Crying Bass Wah: Dunlop® Bass Wah
Bad Horse: Morley® Bad Horsie®
Crying Wah From Hell: Dunlop® Cry Baby® From Hell
Fuller’s Bonnie: Fulltone® Clyde
MXC404 Wah: MXR® MC404 CAE
Crying Clyde Wah: Dunlop® Cry Baby® Clyde McCoy
uTron Auto Wah: Mu-Tron®
Love Meat: Lovetone® Meatball®
Guitar Auto Wah


*EQ*

Parametric
Graphic 6 Band
Graphic 10 Band
3-band
4-band
Peak/Notch
Low Pass
Highpass


*Utility*

Volume pedal
Slow Gear / Swell
FX loop
Noise Gate
Tuner


*MODELS TO BE ADDED IN SUBSEQUENT FREE UPDATES*
*Guitar Amplifiers*

D-Cell H4 Ch1: Diezel® VH4® Channel 1
D-Cell H4 Ch2: Diezel® VH4® Channel 2
XTC Green: Bogner® Ecstasy
XTC Blue: Bogner® Ecstasy
XTC Red: Bogner® Ecstasy
OG Crusherverb: Orange® Rockerverb® 
No Match 30: Matchless® DC30 
NGL 530 Pre Engl® 530 
DAD Pre: ADA® MP-1 
XYZ Pre: Mesa Boogie® Triaxis® 
Comfort Feline: Cornford® Hellcat 
Tweed DLX: Fender® Tweed Deluxe®
California Dream 2C+ Lead: Mesa Boogie® JP-2C® Lead
California Dream 2C+ Clean: Mesa Boogie® JP-2C® – Clean
EL34 PWR Marshall® Poweramp 
6L6 PWR Mesa Boogie® Poweramp 
California Star 50W Ch1: Mesa Boogie® Lonestar® 50W Channel 1
California Star 50W Ch2: Mesa Boogie® Lonestar® 50W Channel 2
British Bass 100 Bright: Marshall® Super Bass 100 Bright 
British Bass 100 Normal: Marshall® Super Bass 100 Normal
British Bass 100 Patch: Marshall® Super Bass 100 Jumpered
British 900: Marshall® JCM 900®
EV III Green: EVH® 5150® III Green
Sonn Mod T CH1 Sunn® Model T® – Channel One
Sonn Mod T CH2 Sunn® Model T® – Channel Two


*Bass Amplifiers*

AG Thor’s Hammer 500 Aguilar® Tone Hammer 500® 
AG D750B Aguilar® DB 751®
Bass 360: Acoustic® 360


*Utility*

Looper
The list of models is for reference only. This list might change at any time without prior notice from Neural DSP
®All registered trademarks are property of their respective owners and are used for reference purposes only, and reflect no affiliation or endorsement from the owners with or to Neural DSP Technologies.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Yeah Baby!
Bogner Shiva
Roland JC-120
Bogner Uber
Diezel VH4!!!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Not a bad list of amps.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Nice thing is, from what we've seen in youtube vids, and from what I've tried hands on in demo versions, they deliver on them, on par if not better in some cases that the Helix in terms of _feel_, but also way more authentic than the HD500X.


----------



## Backsnack

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Yeah Baby!
> Bogner Shiva
> Roland JC-120
> Bogner Uber
> Diezel VH4!!!


Kind of excited that they have all the channels of the VH4.


----------



## Backsnack

Not sure why they’re starting with the Mark II C+ channels and then planning on adding the JP-2C ones later. Seems redundant because they’re likely indistinguishable?

I like that they included some models of standalone power amps in case anyone has preamp pedals that they’d like to use along with it.


----------



## Frostbite

All those amps and I'll probably still end up on a 5150 model lmao. I'm basic af


----------



## bmth4111

Love the list. 

Dover 50 watt amp would be sick in the future! 

Really want to try the sunn amps too. 

And the omega amp plugin will be dope I'm sure.


----------



## SamSam

I really hope they add some Fryette stuff in the future, they are under represented in the modeller world!


----------



## Kaura

Looks like I need to get this thingy just to get a good AC30 emulation...


----------



## c7spheres

Kaura said:


> Looks like I need to get this thingy just to get a good AC30 emulation...


 But it costs more than an actual AC-30 : ) Obviously it has way more stuff in there. These look promising. I'm really interested in seeing all the smaller units these companies come out with like the FM-3 and stuff too.


----------



## Kaura

c7spheres said:


> But it costs more than an actual AC-30 : ) Obviously it has way more stuff in there. These look promising. I'm really interested in seeing all the smaller units these companies come out with like the FM-3 and stuff too.



Holy shit, you're right. I was sure those Vox went for at least $2k given how legendary they are.


----------



## narad

Kaura said:


> Holy shit, you're right. I was sure those Vox went for at least $2k given how legendary they are.



Well, good ones do.


----------



## cwhitey2

SamSam said:


> I really hope they add some Fryette stuff in the future, they are under represented in the modeller world!


I totally agree.

I still may purchase one of these down the road...but for now ill pass. I have a very simple rig.


----------



## AndiKravljaca

This is absolutely everything I need. It has a good EQ section, it has a Centaur, the crunch and lead channels of a Soldano, it has a Marshall and a Bogner cab with T75s. That's pretty much everything I need to build a tone. I'm also really excited to see what their JCM900 will sound like eventually.

But what I am most excited about is the two power amp Sims. This is something I've wanted in the Helix for years, the ability to plug a preamp into the circuit and have the unit add power amp character. This is genius.

I'm a happy camper.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

I listened to some hq YT vids of it being demo'd, but it didn't sound substantially better than some of the better Helix tones I've heard. Also, the cab sims still sound flat/2-D.


----------



## Metropolis

Carl Kolchak said:


> I listened to some hq YT vids of it being demo'd, but it didn't sound substantially better than some of the better Helix tones I've heard. Also, the cab sims still sound flat/2-D.



In my opinion it will sound better than Helix because their plugins do, and modeling is based on same architecture. Not much to say about in reality based from couple of half assed JCM800, HBE and 5150 presets.

Nowadays ir's are surprisingly close to a real cab at least tone wise. This is a video from Mikko who has done the ir's for Quad Cortex.


...and comparison made by York Audio.
https://soundcloud.com/user-250665482/ir-vs-micd-cab-which-is-which


----------



## MisterCirKus

I totally understand why but that's too bad that the plugin sounds are not in this unit.

Buying them increase a lot the unit price !!!


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Metropolis said:


> In my opinion it will sound better than Helix because their plugins do, and modeling is based on same architecture. Not much to say about in reality based from couple of half assed JCM800, HBE and 5150 presets.



That vid was the quintessence of crimge.


----------



## StevenC

A Diezel cab with V30s seems like a bit of an own goal of an IR choice.


----------



## Metropolis

Carl Kolchak said:


> That vid was the quintessence of crimge.



Which was most likely intentional


----------



## laxu

R34CH said:


> Kinda surprised by all of the people that were expecting the tones from this thing to be _otherworldly. _Of course you can expect to get the same tones from your Kemper or Axe Fx III. You're modeling (or profiling) the same amps. These digital tools can only sound "so" good - the amp you're trying to emulate.
> 
> Based on my experience, most people were already satisfied that the Axe was doing a good enough job at making you think you were hearing warmed up tubes instead of ones and zeros. If that's the case, you can't really expect the Cortex to sound _better_ than that. Hell, people were already satisfied with the Axe II. Hasn't the adoption rate of the III been slow because people are like, "Nah, the II is good enough already..."
> 
> People buying this purely on the strength of the VSTs is interesting to me. Is the general consensus that NDSP's plugins are delivering better tones than the Axe? I've demoed the Nameless and Nolly and, yeah, they sound good. They sound like an amp. So does the Axe.



We are firmly in the "splitting hairs" department when it comes to sound and feel on any of the top tier modelers. I got my Helix to sound 99% the same as my favorite patches on the Axe-Fx 2 (first ARES firmware) when used with the same IRs. The QC is not going to be any different in this department. While Fractal may overall have the most advanced modeling, a lot of their improvements have amounted to very subtle differences that you can spot only when playing it in person.

The killer feature of the QC is the UI. That's where modelers still have massive differences. IMO the top dog for hardware UI is Helix right now and Fractal for software editors. QC could take the hardware UI crown if they can get it work smoothly and consistently as the NAMM demos had some issues where things did not activate on first press like they should.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Are these out in retail yet?


----------



## narad

lol, 2021.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Are these out in retail yet?



They said it would be until later this year. Like September/November?


narad said:


> lol, 2021.





narad said:


> lol, 2021.



Also like any kickstarter/crowdfunded deal, expect this.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Two questions for @Doug Castro

1. There was mention of splitting the pre and power sections. Is that planned for release? I plan on running through tube power amps and cabs.

2. D-Cell. Is that D-Cell channel 3? Maybe similar to something Adam Jones might like?


----------



## mikah912

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> They said it would be until later this year. Like September/November?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also like any kickstarter/crowdfunded deal, expect this.



Plus...well, you know...Coronavirus.


----------



## Vyn

laxu said:


> We are firmly in the "splitting hairs" department when it comes to sound and feel on any of the top tier modelers. I got my Helix to sound 99% the same as my favorite patches on the Axe-Fx 2 (first ARES firmware) when used with the same IRs. The QC is not going to be any different in this department. While Fractal may overall have the most advanced modeling, a lot of their improvements have amounted to very subtle differences that you can spot only when playing it in person.
> 
> The killer feature of the QC is the UI. That's where modelers still have massive differences. IMO the top dog for hardware UI is Helix right now and Fractal for software editors. QC could take the hardware UI crown if they can get it work smoothly and consistently as the NAMM demos had some issues where things did not activate on first press like they should.



Considering the IR is like 80%-90% of the tone anyway, provided you have a fast enough unit to run the IR it doesn't matter what you use. Comes down to pricepoint and user interface these days.


----------



## Korneo

Any news yet ?
I'm on the waitlist for an FM3 for this waiting is killing me and the Quad Cortex have more footswitches so...


----------



## broangiel

Korneo said:


> Any news yet ?
> I'm on the waitlist for an FM3 for this waiting is killing me and the Quad Cortex have more footswitches so...


There hasn't been much said since the bulk of the information was released in 1Q20. Doug did say that September will be the month of content and that everything was running more-or-less on schedule. That's about it.


----------



## SamSam

Korneo said:


> Any news yet ?
> I'm on the waitlist for an FM3 for this waiting is killing me and the Quad Cortex have more footswitches so...



I'm on the tier 1 preorder and I got the notice that my FM3 is due some time around next week. At this point I'm thinking fuck it - get both and if I vastly prefer one, sell the other. If i really like both - sell the Axe FX2 or some guitars


----------



## Mathemagician

SamSam said:


> I'm on the tier 1 preorder and I got the notice that my FM3 is due some time around next week. At this point I'm thinking fuck it - get both and if I vastly prefer one, sell the other. If i really like both - sell the Axe FX2 or some guitars



This is the SSO way.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

SamSam said:


> I'm on the tier 1 preorder and I got the notice that my FM3 is due some time around next week. At this point I'm thinking fuck it - get both and if I vastly prefer one, sell the other. If i really like both - sell the Axe FX2 or some guitars


To paraphrase yngwie: "less is not more, only more is more"


----------



## Carl Kolchak

So you'll be able to make sims of pedals as well?


----------



## GunpointMetal

Carl Kolchak said:


> So you'll be able to make sims of pedals as well?


 
It makes sense that if it has tone-match/profiler-like options that those things couldn't be translated to just about every type of effect. I'm actually kind of surprised we haven't seen that a lot. A OD Profiler that can rip the sounds/settings/feel of different distortion pedals and save a bunch of profiles.


----------



## Mathemagician

Uuuugh I can’t wait until this launches so I can decide off other people’s reviews.


----------



## MetalDaze

Official delay announcement. 

https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/qc-changes-to-tier-1-delivery-times


----------



## Korneo

So it's not "FM3 delayed" and they're clear of why they delayed it.


----------



## Vyn

Given this year, zero surprises of it being delayed.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

MetalDaze said:


> Official delay announcement.
> 
> https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/qc-changes-to-tier-1-delivery-times



I like the act that they listed down what improvements they have made. Digging those grippy foot switch rotary knobs. although, it is still scary to think how many things can go wrong in just one footswitch considering that they are capacitive, rotary, and stomps all at the same time. I hope they are really durable.


----------



## SamSam

I'm somewhat glad they have delayed it. I should be getting my FM3 next month and want to have a nice period of getting to play with that before the Quad comes in for comparison


----------



## rexbinary

New Gig View:







https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/gig-view-quad-cortex-development-update


----------



## MASS DEFECT

rexbinary said:


> New Gig View:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/gig-view-quad-cortex-development-update



They're now in matte black? I thought the matte silver gray looked good in the pre production units.


----------



## broangiel

MASS DEFECT said:


> They're now in matte black? I thought the matte silver gray looked good in the pre production units.


Yeah they went with an Apple-esque space gray.


----------



## Metropolis

Quick comparisons between actual rig and a profile, sounds pretty damn good and close to each other. Also lots of familiar faces in here


----------



## Crundles

I'm genuinely hoping this thing is a hit. 

I feel like profiling is a better fit for the majority of intermediate bedroom guitarrists than modelling, as it leaves the actual sound design to people who have experience; and competition in this market segment will (hopefully) lower the price for entry.







"Biomimetic AI technology" still makes me laugh though.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

ehh we'll see just how good the capture program is once it gets into paying customer's hands.


----------



## laxu

Crundles said:


> I feel like profiling is a better fit for the majority of intermediate bedroom guitarrists than modelling, as it leaves the actual sound design to people who have experience; and competition in this market segment will (hopefully) lower the price for entry.



I don't like the Kemper workflow because I don't want to profile my amps and I don't want to hunt down the perfect profile that happens to match my tastes when I could just tweak a model and expect it to behave much like the real amp. But that's me, I know my amps and know how to operate them. For someone less experienced having preset profiles or good presets will make things more comfortable.

The situation shown in the NeuralDSP video is nothing new, only thing this shows is that their profiling is good so I think it may be a kick in the teeth for Kemper, especially if NeuralDSP can provide a companion poweramp for the QC at some point to match the powered Kemper. 

When monitored through studio monitors there is no significant difference whether I run digital models from Helix Native or other amp sim plugins vs running my tube amps through a loadbox into the same cab sims. Tweak enough and you might have a very hard time telling which is which. Modelers have been great for this direct situation for years.

Things get more complicated when you change the amplification back to a poweramp and guitar cab as the poweramp has a distinct effect on the sound and feel. That doesn't mean you can't get stellar tones this way, but as the poweramp and cab used are huge components in the final sound this will make each model less authentic sounding/feeling if it doesn't match your output devices.


----------



## Crundles

laxu said:


> The situation shown in the NeuralDSP video is nothing new, only thing this shows is that their profiling is good so I think it may be a kick in the teeth for Kemper, especially if NeuralDSP can provide a companion poweramp for the QC at some point to match the powered Kemper.
> 
> When monitored through studio monitors there is no significant difference whether I run digital models from Helix Native or other amp sim plugins vs running my tube amps through a loadbox into the same cab sims. Tweak enough and you might have a very hard time telling which is which. Modelers have been great for this direct situation for years.



Absolutely.

The Kemper, however, has more or less been in statis for the past ... what, 7 years? I do admire the company, and their products, but their development pace isn't exactly approaching the singularity.

Modelling, in comparison, has advanced, not only in quality but in availability - you can get more or less flagship-tier Line6 modelling with the Pod GO for 450 EUR, and there's a swarm of lower-price modellers if you can't afford 450 eur, which absolutely will do the job. You can also get into digital ampsims, for even less than that.

My hope is that stronger competition in the profiling side of the market can also lead to overall price decrease and/or the creation of a lower price segment of devices.

And a successful launch of a great profiler, which is also a great modeller, at a price point similar to the Kemper (if the Quad Cortex lives up to the expectations) is definitely strong competition.


----------



## narad

Someone just needs to make a proper free and open source option. Competition in the market driving prices down is good, but it's not complicated stuff. The time has come -- otherwise we're just going to see a flood of cheap "meh" modeling devices, as we're already seeing from like mooer.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Since kemper have dropped the ball completely it’s led to products like this. Neural will cover hardware side and STL have made what is essentially a Kemper profile loader VST with less destructive EQ. If neural bring their profiling to a VST than I doubt we will ever see a Kemper 2 which was very unlikely to happen anyway.

On modelling there seems to be a new vst out every few weeks. Lots of new companies popping up and old ones still churning out new ones.


----------



## Crundles

Mm, this is a bit of a side tangent, but let's not bamboozle ourselves.

Kemper has managed to become, and remain, a household name in the digital guitar sound for nearly 10 years, through what is, effectively, a first-gen architecture.

Just for comparison, since 2011, Nvidia has gone through 9 generations of GeForce architecture (not counting rebrands), starting at GTX 400.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Good for them. It is crazy that Kemper are still selling that same unit that they launched in 2011, for the same price. 2011 is the year of the iPhone 4S. Hell, it took them 8 years just to release a computer editor. It's nice to support products for a long time, but that's pretty ridiculous especially when there are plenty of clear improvements that could be made.

Nobody has made a profiler in the meanwhile, apparently due to Kemper having some patents relating to the profiling method. Whether Neural has carefully looked at the patent and found a way to avoid infringement, or they're just going to do it anyway and call Kemper's bluff - we shall see.

Either way, nice to see that this is a real unit and the profiling sounds good. I have to assume it will be at least as good as the Kemper. And with a much nicer interface, build in models (not just profiles), a computer editor from day 1, more connectivity - it seems like a win.


----------



## budda

Friendly reminder: axe fx has tone matching.

Carry on.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I personally didn’t find the axe-fx tone matching that good when I owned one. I got much better results using EQ matching with ozone or logic and then importing the IR into the cab block.


----------



## Metropolis

...and Mooer has GE Labs which does tone matching, it's free for iOS devices. Also don't forget their tone matching in GE250 & GE300. Overloud TH-U plugin does profiling/tone matching too.


----------



## budda

Lorcan Ward said:


> I personally didn’t find the axe-fx tone matching that good when I owned one. I got much better results using EQ matching with ozone or logic and then importing the IR into the cab block.



I've yet to try it. Just figured it's worth mentioning amidst the profiling conversation.


----------



## Elric

Lorcan Ward said:


> Since kemper have dropped the ball completely it’s led to products like this. Neural will cover hardware side and STL have made what is essentially a Kemper profile loader VST with less destructive EQ. If neural bring their profiling to a VST than I doubt we will ever see a Kemper 2 which was very unlikely to happen anyway.
> 
> On modelling there seems to be a new vst out every few weeks. Lots of new companies popping up and old ones still churning out new ones.


FWIW, THU’s profiling may be even better than STL’s so there are actually two options on the plugin front. I have a a bunch of the Rig Player packs for THU and also STL’s Tonehub... I think one of the lower end units (Mooer maybe?) new how as an actual profiling type functionality, too. So things ar heating up, looks like that patent is not going to stop everyone else completely...


----------



## Flappydoodle

Lorcan Ward said:


> I personally didn’t find the axe-fx tone matching that good when I owned one. I got much better results using EQ matching with ozone or logic and then importing the IR into the cab block.



Isn’t that because it’s using matching with post EQ rather than building a profile by playing known sounds through a rig and measuring the output?

Ive occasionally matched tones with plugins and FabFilter Pro Q. Works great for replicating a sound but the feel is way off. That’s the real advantage of profiling how an amp reacts to the amount of output, different frequencies etc.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Elric said:


> FWIW, THU’s profiling may be even better than STL’s so there are actually two options on the plugin front. I have a a bunch of the Rig Player packs for THU and also STL’s Tonehub... I think one of the lower end units (Mooer maybe?) new how as an actual profiling type functionality, too. So things ar heating up, looks like that patent is not going to stop everyone else completely...



I assume they’re just infringing it and betting that Kemper won’t fight it. If they’re not releasing a new product after a decade, it doesn’t feel like they’ll be vigorously pursuing people and fighting legal battles. Mooer for sure won’t give a shit since they’re Chinese. At the end of the day, a patent is only worth anything if you can actually defend it. I am not a lawyer, but there’s also some argument that you should be utilising the patent or developing the technology related to it (at least in biotech, which is what I know best). One could argue that with zero innovation in 9 years, Kemper are basically blocking the industry from improving. If Neural is bringing several huge improvements to the table, they’re more likely to get away with infringement.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> I assume they’re just infringing it and betting that Kemper won’t fight it. If they’re not releasing a new product after a decade, it doesn’t feel like they’ll be vigorously pursuing people and fighting legal battles. Mooer for sure won’t give a shit since they’re Chinese. At the end of the day, a patent is only worth anything if you can actually defend it. I am not a lawyer, but there’s also some argument that you should be utilising the patent or developing the technology related to it (at least in biotech, which is what I know best). One could argue that with zero innovation in 9 years, Kemper are basically blocking the industry from improving. If Neural is bringing several huge improvements to the table, they’re more likely to get away with infringement.



Might also just be running down the clock. 

The European patent expires in 2026, US in 2027. 

It's near 2021, and lawsuits can drag on for decades. 

Though, patents can build on each other if they are deemed unique enough. That's sort of the risk of patenting a "trade secret". It can provide a road map for someone to expand enough on your concept to be awarded thier own.


----------



## sakeido

neural heard you guys talkin shit



sounds real, real good

edit: lmao already posted. Neural only just sent it to me today?


----------



## broangiel

sakeido said:


> neural heard you guys talkin shit



That’s what’s being discussed on the previous page


----------



## Frostbite

Sweetwater is going to be the US distributor for the Quad Cortex and they did a run through. It's looking really good. Only wish switching scenes was instantaneous but that's an issue with all modelers ATM


----------



## rexbinary

Frostbite said:


> Only wish switching scenes was instantaneous but that's an issue with all modelers ATM



I believe the GT-1000 will switch instantly. Ola was showing that in one of his videos about it.

EDIT: Found it. 13:10


----------



## Frostbite

rexbinary said:


> I believe the GT-1000 will switch instantly. Ola was showing that in one of his videos about it.
> 
> EDIT: Found it. 13:10


Wasn't even aware of that unit. That's sick. Maybe that can be tightened by release then or with a patch for the Cortex


----------



## bmth4111

So ,I’m wondering is this unit going to cost more as preorder and take longer to ship than ordering from sweet water. On top of not having sweet water financing. 

kinda of lost any perks for doing a preorder it seems.


----------



## broangiel

bmth4111 said:


> So ,I’m wondering is this unit going to cost more as preorder and take longer to ship than ordering from sweet water. On top of not having sweet water financing.
> 
> kinda of lost any perks for doing a preorder it seems.


The financing is what’s making me think of foregoing my preorder unit.


----------



## bmth4111

broangiel said:


> The financing is what’s making me think of foregoing my preorder unit.


Yeah I get it , I mean sweet water would have free shipping too. Plus I’d have to pay for extra fees for customs etc.


----------



## Deadpool_25

@Doug Castro 

Will there be additional import/custom fees for those who preordered?


----------



## Korneo

Honestly, this is the best way to sell it.
The bullshit with Fractal and G66 is crazy stupid and restrictive.

I'm on a wait list for the FM3 for a year and the waiting is the worst thing ever for an already obsolete product in term of featuring compared to the Quad Cortex(The layout, switch, dedicated tuner switch (thanks god !), touch screen and internal power).
The only bad point of the QC FOR ME is the power brick. And maybe the lack of an handle too.
I love the sound of the fractal products but I waiting for the QC because of the thing I've just said.
Plus the update of the FM3 is pretty rare compared to the Axe 3. Like if they don't care at all. And we're not talking about the year of wait to have a product without and headphone output...

If it sound good with a good feeling (The Helix is horrible for that), I'm sold.


----------



## icipher

The Quad Cortex is overkill for me and probably many other people. Over the last couple years I've acquired multiple Neural software suite plugins. All I want is to be able to create the patches in the desktop standalone and then port them into a floorboard so I can finally use them live by running the floorboard into a SS power amp and into a 2x12. But no, instead Neural made an expensive supercomputer that is overkill for what I mentioned above.


----------



## Deadpool_25

My primary question is whether you’ll be able to disable the power amp section of the amps. I’d like to run it through my amps’ FX loops. Sometimes power amp sims sound fine that way, sometimes not.


----------



## Mathemagician

Man fuck this forum. Pre-Order placed.


----------



## Breeding The Spawn

Wtf man, I just barely was able to afford an Ax8 haha.


----------



## thebeesknees22

It's a nice compact unit, but I don't see any reason to switch from my helix tbh. I'm sure it'll be good for some folks out there though.


----------



## bmth4111

So it’s official, neural dsp is paying for shipping and any import fees for the USA and eu. I mean it makes sense but was worried there for a bit.


----------



## Bearitone

icipher said:


> The Quad Cortex is overkill for me and probably many other people. Over the last couple years I've acquired multiple Neural software suite plugins. All I want is to be able to create the patches in the desktop standalone and then port them into a floorboard so I can finally use them live by running the floorboard into a SS power amp and into a 2x12. But no, instead Neural made an expensive supercomputer that is overkill for what I mentioned above.



can’t the OMEC teleport do this? I mean let you use plug-ins live with a pedalboard and the rest of your rig


----------



## sakeido

Cali flash sale today boys , 50% off

CALI50

if the Cortex has 50+ amp models on the same level as the Cali, it's a smokin deal. I maaaybe have to get one


----------



## Mathemagician

sakeido said:


> Cali flash sale today boys , 50% off
> 
> CALI50
> 
> if the Cortex has 50+ amp models on the same level as the Cali, it's a smokin deal. I maaaybe have to get one



What’s the Cali based on the Recto? 

Then the NTS is the Satan right?


----------



## DudeManBrother

Mathemagician said:


> What’s the Cali based on the Recto?
> 
> Then the NTS is the Satan right?


The Cali is another modded Marshall variant based on the Fortin Cali. The NTS is the Fortin Natas; which is what the Randall Satan is based on.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> Man fuck this forum.



My bank account sends me a “smh” emoji whenever I visit this forum.


----------



## JD27

Bearitone said:


> can’t the OMEC teleport do this? I mean let you use plug-ins live with a pedalboard and the rest of your rig



Yes, I had an OMEC Teleport I used it with the demo of the first plugin when it was released. Sounded pretty good with a real cab.


----------



## icipher

JD27 said:


> Yes, I had an OMEC Teleport I used it with the demo of the first plugin when it was released. Sounded pretty good with a real cab.



I just googled the teleport. So it functions as a converter from a laptop to a power amp? How did you switch between different presets when the teleport only has one button?


----------



## JD27

icipher said:


> I just googled the teleport. So it functions as a converter from a laptop to a power amp? How did you switch between different presets when the teleport only has one button?



Yeah that literally just turns it on/off. Changed presets from plugin itself, though I imagine you could automate with MIDI.


----------



## Mathemagician

Is it November yet? I need more audio clips.


----------



## Elric

icipher said:


> The Quad Cortex is overkill for me and probably many other people. Over the last couple years I've acquired multiple Neural software suite plugins. All I want is to be able to create the patches in the desktop standalone and then port them into a floorboard so I can finally use them live by running the floorboard into a SS power amp and into a 2x12. But no, instead Neural made an expensive supercomputer that is overkill for what I mentioned above.


Curse them! I can't believe they decided to make a general purpose product that is sure to have wide appeal rather than a product tailored to your personal needs! They are so entitled. Bastages!


----------



## BubbleWrap

I’m terribly tempted by these. I picked up a Kemper Stage two months ago after maybe four years with the Helix. While it sounds and feels marginally better and more amp like than what I’ve found with the other top tier modelers, which I’m pretty pleased with, as stated earlier in the thread, the user interface is utter garbage in comparison to the other somewhat recent competition. Not even considering the Texas Instruments display. I spent days reading the 319 page manual just to figure out the key combination needed to delete a profile from their rig manager software. Highlighting and right clicking doesn’t even present that as an option. It’s also not even worth using IRs because their hardware isn’t able to run them at anywhere near an acceptable quality, honestly made me regret selling my eventide loader I used with my Hd500x years ago.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Sweetwater is now posting it and taking pre-orders, they have a good demo video by Mitch too.


----------



## broangiel

One of the Neural guys has been active in the TGP thread lately. For anyone who wants more info, that’s becoming a handy resource (finally).


----------



## rexbinary

More tones


----------



## laxu

rexbinary said:


> More tones




Pretty bad video that shows pretty much nothing of the product. Only Timo Kämäräinen's section is actually useful stuff and sounds pretty good to me.

I hate when demos are just lead noodling. Give me some riffs!


----------



## narad

I keep wanting to hear this somehow sound good/better than the FM3, but never does, and even that isn't getting me to give up on amps. Slick interface though.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

I got a tier 2 preorder since last year. Any news on when those ship?

Concerning custom fees, it seems that everyone will pay customs and shipping fees. According to their website:

The purchase price (“Price”) does not include import duties, taxes, and other government charges, or shipping, which are your responsibility. The price includes VAT for European customers.

Therefore, preordering means getting it sooner but potentially paying more compared to going to a local guitar shop.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> I keep wanting to hear this somehow sound good/better than the FM3, but never does, and even that isn't getting me to give up on amps. Slick interface though.



Yeah I am not hearing anything that has wowed me and made this a must-have yet. The interface does look great, but I am not one of those guys that is afraid to set up presets on a computer so that is really not a huge deal for me.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Kinda right there with you guys. I’m in Tier 1 and keep going back and forth about whether to cancel.


----------



## MetalDaze

Deadpool_25 said:


> Kinda right there with you guys. I’m in Tier 1 and keep going back and forth about whether to cancel.



but then you’ll lose your mystery perk


----------



## Soya

Is that like the mystery gift on an Adam and Eve order?


----------



## Flappydoodle

rexbinary said:


> More tones




The effects stand out as great. Really nice delays, reverbs and other effects

Interface also looks nice, but I did see some lag in the touchscreen scrolling, like an android phone. Hopefully that was just a result of the camera frame rate and cortex refresh rate not syncing nicely.

The amp sounds sounded pretty good. Nothing that blew me away though. 

I say that, but what could blow someone away in this day and age? Even 10 years ago we had Kemper where 95% of people can't tell the difference. Now we have plugins where 99.999% of people can't tell the difference. 

They show a 5150 emulation, a Marshall emulation - but those sounds are well known and even the amp itself isn't going to blow you away nowadays. Plus, every modeller for the last 5 years has done a great job of re-producing them.

I guess my problem is that people are wanting or hoping for something totally next level. But we've been at the 99th level out of 100 for the last several years already. The massive amount of hype can never live up to that sort of expectation IMO.

If you really want an epic device for a guitarist, how about something with intelligent noise gating, with live, zero latency bend pitch correction that uses AI to know if you bend is out of tune on purpose or not. Or it should have evertune-like functionality where it locks you to semitones. It should also have a build-in hard drive for recording ideas, including capturing a DI and the amp sound you used. That should work for all 4 inputs, so you can have two guitarists, bassist and singer going through one device. It should make you all perfectly in tune. It should mix your sound for you, making everything sit properly, cutting the guitar frequencies where necessary, and it should all be done dynamically and live.

Then I might be blown away.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Good points @Flappydoodle 

It would be tough to do something really revolutionary in terms of tone at this point. I think it’s probably more about UI, routing options, suitability for varying use cases, noise mitigation, form factor, portability, etc.


----------



## budda

Bad time to say Cliff at Fractal just had a patrnt approved? 

Also the adam and eve joke made me laugh longer than it should have.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Deadpool_25 said:


> Kinda right there with you guys. I’m in Tier 1 and keep going back and forth about whether to cancel.



Same here. I’m tier 2 and not sure I’ll go ahead.

I might just shell out 500$ more and get an AxeFX 3 and forget about having a floor unit for now.

Anyone know if the editor that centralizes all NeuralDSP plugins will be available without the Cortex?


----------



## technomancer

Deadpool_25 said:


> Good points @Flappydoodle
> 
> It would be tough to do something really revolutionary in terms of tone at this point. I think it’s probably more about UI, routing options, suitability for varying use cases, noise mitigation, form factor, portability, etc.



Yeah but this doesn't even sound good before being layered with effects in the videos


----------



## Deadpool_25

technomancer said:


> Yeah but this doesn't even sound good before being layered with effects in the videos



Doesn't sound bad to me, but not as good as the video where they did the captures. That one sounded pretty good imo. Not better than my FM3 though as far as I can tell.


----------



## broangiel

budda said:


> Bad time to say Cliff at Fractal just had a patrnt approved?
> 
> Also the adam and eve joke made me laugh longer than it should have.


Was there an update on the patent? I’ve only seen the vague reference to it and the pending document.


----------



## budda

broangiel said:


> Was there an update on the patent? I’ve only seen the vague reference to it and the pending document.



A fas forum member looked it up and posted it had gone through iirc.


----------



## broangiel

budda said:


> A fas forum member looked it up and posted it had gone through iirc.


I’ll have to catch up on that. Thanks!


----------



## bassisace

Sorry for the dumb question, but what does Cliff want to patent?


----------



## technomancer

bassisace said:


> Sorry for the dumb question, but what does Cliff want to patent?



Haven't looked into it in detail but I believe some of their IR tech


----------



## broangiel

bassisace said:


> Sorry for the dumb question, but what does Cliff want to patent?


Looks to be some kind of profiling methodology.


----------



## Bearitone

I don’t understand why companies tease shit for 1 year in advance.

Just have a completed fucking product ready to go, in a box, then advertise.

If i saw trailers for any movie 12 MONTS in advance and they kept coming out with teasers every other month I wouldn’t want to see the shit anymore even if it was a good movie.


----------



## Mathemagician

It’s why I ignore most things with early announcements. I didn’t really go through videos until last month when they announced the Sweetwater dealer option. B/c it’s set to launch end of November. 

But for example in gaming Nintendo announces a game and is like “available tomorrow” or “available in 4 weeks, preorder now”. And that shit is just magical. 

Then again for a new(er) company known only for its software I can see why they would want to go slow in terms of rollout for their first piece of (expensive) hardware. Help build that brand awareness, etc. 

It’s annoying as a consumer though for sure, I avoid trailers for things I like for that reason. But for hardware I get it a bit more.


----------



## narad

Bearitone said:


> I don’t understand why companies tease shit for 1 year in advance.
> 
> Just have a completed fucking product ready to go, in a box, then advertise.
> 
> If i saw trailers for any movie 12 MONTS in advance and they kept coming out with teasers every other month I wouldn’t want to see the shit anymore even if it was a good movie.



STOP!! NO ONE BUY AN AXE-FX THIS YEAR PLZ!! WAITTT!!


----------



## Bearitone

narad said:


> STOP!! NO ONE BUY AN AXE-FX THIS YEAR PLZ!! WAITTT!!


Exactly


----------



## Randy

Great UI, great I/Os, pretty good overall layout but every clip so far sound like rat piss and the marketing for this is atrocious. It's not a supercar and it's not documentary on climate change, its a fucking guitar pedal, show some people enjoying themselves and get some clips that don't sound like a fucking Zoom pedal.


----------



## Metropolis

Randy said:


> Great UI, great I/Os, pretty good overall layout but every clip so far sound like rat piss and the marketing for this is atrocious. It's not a supercar and it's not documentary on climate change, its a fucking guitar pedal, show some people enjoying themselves and get some clips that don't sound like a fucking Zoom pedal.



What, they already compared real rig to a profile and they were almost identical.

And it's been bit over eight months since the announcement... not 12.


----------



## narad

Metropolis said:


> What, they already compared real rig to a profile and they were almost identical.



Were they profiling a Zoom pedal?

I kid, I don't really see much reason for it to sound worse than the plugins. So far the vids have been very subpar for the degree of Apple-ness shadowy product silhouettes and advance hype announcements though.


----------



## Randy

Metropolis said:


> What, they already compared real rig to a profile and they were almost identical.



Right and they keep getting cut slack because maybe the way they mic or eq for their demo videos is bad, because regardless of that, I haven't heard a single tone of theirs I would use in like a dozen different demos and teasers at this point. 

So everyone keeps assuming "eh, maybe it's just that clip" "maybe it's just that amp" "maybe it's just that guy" but cumulatively when you're this far along and all of the clips you have out in the community are fucking trash, people start to wonder if your pedal sounds like fucking trash.


----------



## SamSam

I have a tier 1 preorder and received an FM3 a few weeks ago.

It took me about 5 minutes to dial in a rhythm tone that I am happy with and I'm starting to doubt the need (want really) for the QC.

Maybe I should play my neural plugins through my power amp for a more direct comparison.


----------



## Elric

I have an AxeFX III and have preordered this thing. Not worried. It'll sound as good as their plugs for the high gainers when it is all said and done, I am sure. It's a prototype right now.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I’d guess the tones are about as good as they’re going to be—they’re starting to put out tone demos so they’d kind of have to be at this point. That’s not to say they won’t change/improve them in future updates of course.

With that said I don’t think they've sounded bad to this point. Well, not the last couple I’ve heard; there was an early one I did think was relatively bad.


----------



## sakeido

SamSam said:


> I have a tier 1 preorder and received an FM3 a few weeks ago.
> 
> It took me about 5 minutes to dial in a rhythm tone that I am happy with and I'm starting to doubt the need (want really) for the QC.
> 
> Maybe I should play my neural plugins through my power amp for a more direct comparison.



it's gotta be a perfectly linear, flat power amp tho 

you can't disable the power section on Neural plugins. You can only bypass the cab, pedals, or entire amp


----------



## bassisace

Basic question: for studio use, what would you recommend between axefx 3 and QC? Any important limitations of QC?


----------



## icipher

Elric said:


> Curse them! I can't believe they decided to make a general purpose product that is sure to have wide appeal rather than a product tailored to your personal needs! They are so entitled. Bastages!



Stop pretending I am the only one that who would want what I described. Tons of people would throw their money to get something like that.


----------



## broangiel

bassisace said:


> Basic question: for studio use, what would you recommend between axefx 3 and QC? Any important limitations of QC?


Axe is going to be a more flexible, capable machine in the short term. Maybe NDSP adds all the same (or similar) bells and whistles, but Axe will do way, way more for the foreseeable future (and maybe forever).


----------



## nickgray

bassisace said:


> what would you recommend between axefx 3 and QC?



QC is not even out yet...


----------



## budda

bassisace said:


> Basic question: for studio use, what would you recommend between axefx 3 and QC? Any important limitations of QC?



Axe fx. Proven goodness.


----------



## narad

icipher said:


> Stop pretending I am the only one that who would want what I described. Tons of people would throw their money to get something like that.



That's not the point. For what you want, you probably need 90% of the hardware. Because going forward the software can be included at no cost to them, if you want a device that does 50% less at 50% the cost, that's the same as just asking them for a QC at 50% off from the point of view of the company. Not to mention extra dev and production costs for a second line. Pretty shit deal. 

Plus it would cannibalize their own market of people who would be torn between the higher-cost/higher-profit QC and the lower-profit stripped down model.


----------



## Deadpool_25

sakeido said:


> it's gotta be a perfectly linear, flat power amp tho
> 
> you can't disable the power section on Neural plugins. You can only bypass the cab, pedals, or entire amp



That’s my biggest question on the QC: whether you can diasable power amp sim. I’m not sure how big a deal that is though since with the FM3 I actually like having the PA on (minimum amount of sag) as opposed to totally off (0.0 sag).

Really the only reasons I’m interested in the QC at this point is the ability to run two amps at once, the UI, and the number of switches. The FM3 can’t do two amps and, though it’s definitely more capable than you’d think three switches would be, I’d like to have more and maintain the form factor. I have an FC6 which is fine but does double the size of the Fractal rig.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> That’s my biggest question on the QC: whether you can diasable power amp sim. I’m not sure how big a deal that is though since with the FM3 I actually like having the PA on (minimum amount of sag) as opposed to totally off (0.0 sag).
> 
> Really the only reasons I’m interested in the QC at this point is the ability to run two amps at once, the UI, and the number of switches. The FM3 can’t do two amps and, though it’s definitely more capable than you’d think three switches would be, I’d like to have more and maintain the form factor. I have an FC6 which is fine but does double the size of the Fractal rig.



MC6. Or MC3.


----------



## bassisace

@budda My thoughts exactly. QC might turn out great, or just underwhelming.



nickgray said:


> QC is not even out yet...



Yes, so...


----------



## budda

bassisace said:


> @budda My thoughts exactly. QC might turn out great, or just underwhelming.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, so...



I think the only thing really swaying people to QC is the UI, maybe the buttons. 

Im also not the target market . I am however a very satisfied axe fx iii owner.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> MC6. Or MC3.



I have an MC6 and an MC8 lol. The FC6 setup ain’t that bad. The QC just has what looks like an ideal form factor. It’s basically what I was wanting from Fractal—a more direct successor to the AX8. Don’t get me wrong the FM3 is awesome.


----------



## budda

Deadpool_25 said:


> I have an MC6 and an MC8 lol. The FC6 setup ain’t that bad. The QC just has what looks like an ideal form factor. It’s basically what I was wanting from Fractal—a more direct successor to the AX8. Don’t get me wrong the FM3 is awesome.



If you dont want the mc8 later, let me know. Not that Im in a rush


----------



## Randy

bassisace said:


> Basic question: for studio use, what would you recommend between axefx 3 and QC? Any important limitations of QC?



Rack > Pedal for studio use.

Also, considering Neural is a mostly VST company, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually have something similar to Helix Native where you don't need the hardware at all. They're already looking to lean pretty heavily on their existing VSTs anyway, I see limited reasons for the QC as a studio piece compared to the Axe. That's before you even get into the track record of it versus the unknowns of the other.


----------



## Flappydoodle

bassisace said:


> Basic question: for studio use, what would you recommend between axefx 3 and QC? Any important limitations of QC?



Depends what you mean by studio use. You can probably get away with 1-2 plugins and some impulses to cover 99% of all metal genre needs. I struggle to see the point of any hardware modelling unit for studio use. It’s just adding extra crap and extra steps in the chain. What most people are doing is providing live monitoring to the guitarist, capturing a DI and then tweaking the tone later. That’s way easier with plugins.


----------



## SamSam

sakeido said:


> it's gotta be a perfectly linear, flat power amp tho
> 
> you can't disable the power section on Neural plugins. You can only bypass the cab, pedals, or entire amp



It would have to be my Matrix GT1000, not sure how flat it is but it was advertised as being designed for modellers so I guess it'll be acceptable.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Flappydoodle said:


> Depends what you mean by studio use. You can probably get away with 1-2 plugins and some impulses to cover 99% of all metal genre needs. I struggle to see the point of any hardware modelling unit for studio use. It’s just adding extra crap and extra steps in the chain. What most people are doing is providing live monitoring to the guitarist, capturing a DI and then tweaking the tone later. That’s way easier with plugins.



What about alleviating computer processing by doing it in a box?

I doubt current plugins can cover all the tones an axefx3 can, but I may be wrong.

Tweaking the tone later with what? Do you mean reamping with an actual cab-amp or just tweaking the tone on the dry track with your plugin later?

Are you saying rack units like AxeFx only have a use for live stuff?

Not being confrontational, just trying to understand your point.


----------



## laxu

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> What about alleviating computer processing by doing it in a box?
> 
> I doubt current plugins can cover all the tones an axefx3 can, but I may be wrong.



Most plugins will not be that heavy to run.

I went from an Axe-Fx 2 with 200+ amps/channels/variants to the Yamaha THR100HD which has two channels with 4 amp models each. I felt I lost really nothing relevant in the amp sim department.

Helix Native plugin can cover most things the Axe-Fx 3 does but does not have as good cab sims or reverbs. Both of which you can easily replace with other plugins or IRs. Obviously also none of the advanced tweaking options if you care about those. I don't know about the synth or pitch shift stuff so I don't know how the Helix compares in that regard. Never used them myself.

You can do a helluva lot with a handful of amp models and knowing how to use EQs well. I can get the majority of the tones I would ever use just from the ML Sound Labs ML5 (Mesa Mark V) plugin. Changing IRs often has more effect on tone than changing amp models.

To me the main benefits of hardware units are that they are easier to hook up to other stuff and have real knobs you can use over virtual ones. I used my Axe-Fx 2 99% through Axe-Edit because it was a real chore otherwise. Axe-Fx 3 is better in this regard but still a bit half assed UI if you ask me. The Line6 Helix hardware is super easy to operate and I never hook it up to my computer for anything but updates and IR uploads. The QC looks like it will be even better.

As for NeuralDSP plugins...I tried the Cali and Omega in the last few days and I don't care about them. Most of the presets are fizz city and I ended up dialing pretty much the same sound out of both. Even then it was not as good as what I get with Helix Native -> MIKKO cab sim or the ML5. I like the NeuralDSP Plini plugin a lot though but even that is kind of a "instant polished guitar tone" type of deal you can just throw into a mix but it's not necessarily all that realistic to play through. I feel the NeuralDSP plugins always sound like I am playing something through different filters more than anything.

I am interested to hear how the QC performs in this regard when the goal is accurate amp simulation rather than just "sounds good in a mix" tones.


----------



## Frostbite

https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/qu...13gQehAw0c0htHXC9JtxzfZuJ7Nw_NEV54B662kyDHkmQ List of amps and effects got released. It also comes with a bunch of Nolly made IRs


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Frostbite said:


> https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/qu...13gQehAw0c0htHXC9JtxzfZuJ7Nw_NEV54B662kyDHkmQ List of amps and effects got released. It also comes with a bunch of Nolly made IRs



Not that of an impressive list for a launch. But if the quality is there, it's a decent start I guess.



budda said:


> Axe fx. Proven goodness.



And proven road worthy hardware and switches.


----------



## Frostbite

MASS DEFECT said:


> Not that of an impressive list for a launch. But if the quality is there, it's a decent start I guess.


Yeah they hit what they needed to hit out of the gate. After launch support will make or break this unit. It's why the helix has stayed competitive


----------



## Korneo

Damend, I just receive an email with my invitation for the FM3 (Joined the wait list on January) and it wil be ready in one month...
I don't know what to do, if I buy the FM3 or wait for the QC..


----------



## Vince

Korneo said:


> Damend, I just receive an email with my invitation for the FM3 (Joined the wait list on January) and it wil be ready in one month...
> I don't know what to do, if I buy the FM3 or wait for the QC..


FM3. Go with the known commodity. I have one and it's fantastic.


----------



## SamSam

Korneo said:


> Damend, I just receive an email with my invitation for the FM3 (Joined the wait list on January) and it wil be ready in one month...
> I don't know what to do, if I buy the FM3 or wait for the QC..



I'd you have to pick one get the Fractal. I'm extremely happy with mine and I highly doubt the QC will match it for options and quality for a while. The 3 buttons may seem restrictive, but you can set them up to do a lot of things, including held presses. So really you get a lot of options if you are smart with your configuration.

The only time I think the QC would be better for you from the onset is if you use very fx heavy presets.

I hope I'm wrong though, I hope the QC is awesome. But my confidence is waning.


----------



## Randy

Neural would be wise to heed a lesson from this thread. It's the thread for *their* product, and it's evolved into a dozen recommendations for their competitor instead because we:

1.) Don't have physical product to discuss, and all the conversations you can have about marketing and a spec sheet have run their course

2.) I don't care what anybody else says in here, it sounds like shit. There are innumerable clips of modelers from other companies out in the wild and first hand experience to go from, these videos are literally all we have to go off of right now and they sound like ass, address this.

I'm not saying the QC is sunk but I have a hard time believing they don't lose steam and have even lost people on the preorder list to these awful priories. I know I personally got on the FM3 list instead of this one because I had more confidence in the Fractal just because I saw them actually shipping and sounding good. This is the time QC orders should be going up, not driving people to their competitor.


----------



## laxu

MASS DEFECT said:


> Not that of an impressive list for a launch. But if the quality is there, it's a decent start I guess.



Let's remember some of the ones that are listed as "might not make it" may still be available on release.

To me there is absolutely nothing critical missing. It has way more amp sims than anyone would reasonably need and enough effects to cover all but the most exotic ones.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Neural would be wise to heed a lesson from this thread. It's the thread for *their* product, and it's evolved into a dozen recommendations for their competitor instead because we:
> 
> 1.) Don't have physical product to discuss, and all the conversations you can have about marketing and a spec sheet have run their course
> 
> 2.) I don't care what anybody else says in here, I sounds like shit. There are innumerable clips of modelers from other companies out in the wild and first hand experience to go from, these videos are literally all we have to go off of right now and they sound like ass, address this.
> 
> I'm not saying the QC is sunk but I have a hard time believing they don't lose steam and have even most people on the preorder list to these awful priories. I know I personally got on the FM3 list instead of this one because I had more confidence in the Fractal just because I saw them actually shipping and sounding good. This is the time QC orders should be going up, not driving people to their competitor.



The device is not even released on anything but paper and you are already doom and gloom? They have already said that there will be YouTuber videos as well as product videos explaining the unit coming in the upcoming weeks as the first ones get sent out. While their current product videos have failed to impress, I hope at least 3rd party ones will show how it is in practice.

Meanwhile the Fractal FM3 is close to unobtainium 1.5 years after it was first revealed and 8 months after it started shipping. It seems to have a bunch of issues as well as not getting any better development support than the AX8 did, trailing noticeably behind the improvements the flagship Axe-Fx 3 gets even in terms of just bugfixes. IMO Fractal made some bad blunders with the design of the FM3 with the lack of headphone out on first iteration and having only 3 footswitches when there is clearly room for 5-6, which would let you avoid buying the very overpriced FC footcontroller for best integration.

My expectation is that the Quad Cortex is on par with the other units on the market soundwise and is just more fun to use due to the touchscreen and knob/switch controls. I'm not on the preorder list and I think I will wait until next year to see any initial quirks addressed with firmware updates. Hopefully by that time the BluGuitar Amp X is also out so I can choose between the two.


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> The device is not even released on anything but paper and you are already doom and gloom? They have already said that there will be YouTuber videos as well as product videos explaining the unit coming in the upcoming weeks as the first ones get sent out. While their current product videos have failed to impress, I hope at least 3rd party ones will show how it is in practice.
> 
> Meanwhile the Fractal FM3 is close to unobtainium 1.5 years after it was first revealed and 8 months after it started shipping. It seems to have a bunch of issues as well as not getting any better development support than the AX8 did, trailing noticeably behind the improvements the flagship Axe-Fx 3 gets even in terms of just bugfixes. IMO Fractal made some bad blunders with the design of the FM3 with the lack of headphone out on first iteration and having only 3 footswitches when there is clearly room for 5-6, which would let you avoid buying the very overpriced FC footcontroller for best integration.
> 
> My expectation is that the Quad Cortex is on par with the other units on the market soundwise and is just more fun to use due to the touchscreen and knob/switch controls. I'm not on the preorder list and I think I will wait until next year to see any initial quirks addressed with firmware updates. Hopefully by that time the BluGuitar Amp X is also out so I can choose between the two.



I'm not "gloom and doom", it'll probably get better after release but they're not a cheap unit, so losing $1500 here and there because you took too long to get to market, or worried people on what they were gonna get when it finally did ship, is not an insignificant number. I'll bet you right now they've lost at least $50,000 to $100,000 just from bad marketing videos in this thread alone.

Also, the FM3 is "unobtainium" for exactly the reason you knocked them, because they were as quick as possible to get a version to market even if it was likely to change by second wave. Nobody got off their FM3 preorder because the first one didn't have a headphone jack, or because updates were limited (it's still very early in the revision cycle).

Fractal was very good with discounting depending on circumstances, and they were good with making changes; like the addition of the headphone jack which shows listening to customers, which is feedback you don't get if the product isn't out in the market. Also, of course the Axe3 is going to get firmware updates pushed to it more often considering it's the flagship model and also more substantial hardware, it's secondary to rejigger a software update to work with the lighter device and also a lower priority. How many firmware updates have QC users gotten? None cause nobody has any.

I said it already, Neural should've pushed a handful of early releases to people on their list, even at a substantial discount knowing it was beta stage. The whole reason why FM3 is backed up right now regardless of things like the headphone jack on first release is because having even some of them in the wild showed the potential, so the outside observation was "this is great, would be better if...".

Can't say that with the QC. The interface looks great, the I/O looks great but the clips are ass. I can't reach through the screen and turn the presence knob down for them so until I see otherwise these sound like shit and other companies will keep eating their lunch regardless of how many dudes they have like you to make excuses for them.


----------



## nickgray

Randy said:


> but the clips are ass



To be fair, modelers are notorious for having shitty presets. Helix ones are borderline unusable for example, and its stock IRs suck pretty hard. Considering that Neural did a really good job with their VSTs, I think it's unlikely that the modeling part will be bad.

Imo, a far bigger concern are the usual teething problems with these sorts of products - it's their first modeler and it's a pretty complex piece of gear. Anything can go wrong. Hopefully everything will turn out fine, of course, but honestly, I'm just flabbergasted by people who are hyped as hell to _pre-order_ it. Though I guess it's just a budget thing at the end of the day. Hell, people pre-order video games for $60, and end up being paid (not in the correct way) beta testers.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> I'm not "gloom and doom", it'll probably get better after release but they're not a cheap unit, so losing $1500 here and there because you took too long to get to market, or worried people on what they were gonna get when it finally did ship, is not an insignificant number. I'll bet you right now they've lost at least $50,000 to $100,000 just from bad marketing videos in this thread alone.
> 
> Also, the FM3 is "unobtainium" for exactly the reason you knocked them, because they were as quick as possible to get a version to market even if it was likely to change by second wave. Nobody got off their FM3 preorder because the first one didn't have a headphone jack, or because updates were limited (it's still very early in the revision cycle).
> 
> Fractal was very good with discounting depending on circumstances, and they were good with making changes; like the addition of the headphone jack which shows listening to customers, which is feedback you don't get if the product isn't out in the market. Also, of course the Axe3 is going to get firmware updates pushed to it more often considering it's the flagship model and also more substantial hardware, it's secondary to rejigger a software update to work with the lighter device and also a lower priority. How many firmware updates have QC users gotten? None cause nobody has any.
> 
> I said it already, Neural should've pushed a handful of early releases to people on their list, even at a substantial discount knowing it was beta stage. The whole reason why FM3 is backed up right now regardless of things like the headphone jack on first release is because having even some of them in the wild showed the potential, so the outside observation was "this is great, would be better if...".



They haven't lost anything. Even those on the preorder lists have not even paid the full price for their units! I haven't seen people getting off the preorder lists either. You also cannot even buy the unit anywhere but US where you can join the Sweetwater preorder if you did not join the preorders earlier this year. You are asking for content for a product that is not finished and not released. It remains to be seen if NeuralDSP manages to ship the intended preorder quantities in an orderly fashion and how they fare getting the units after that to retailers.

They are just now ramping up to getting video content out there close to the preorders shipping. I can understand them not wanting to send an unfinished unit out there and then get flack for issues with that. IMO they should not even have been at NAMM early this year because the unit was so clearly incomplete and buggy.

Fractal don't really need to do much marketing for the FM3 because the tone you will be getting is pretty much known. They can just say "it sounds exactly like the Axe-Fx 3". Their issue is actually delivering the product more than anything and it seems they just don't manage to do better despite having this exact issue for years now whether it was Axe-Fx 2, AX8, Axe-Fx 3 or the FM3. I guess being "so desirable that you need to get on a waiting list" is one business strategy.


----------



## Randy

nickgray said:


> To be fair, modelers are notorious for having shitty presets. Helix ones are borderline unusable for example, and its stock IRs suck pretty hard. Considering that Neural did a really good job with their VSTs, I think it's unlikely that the modeling part will be bad.
> 
> Imo, a far bigger concern are the usual teething problems with these sorts of products - it's their first modeler and it's a pretty complex piece of gear. Anything can go wrong. Hopefully everything will turn out fine, of course, but honestly, I'm just flabbergasted by people who are hyped as hell to _pre-order_ it. Though I guess it's just a budget thing at the end of the day. Hell, people pre-order video games for $60, and end up being paid (not in the correct way) beta testers.



Agreed, although I'd add the caveat that one of the demos that scared me the most is this most recent one with Kiko and a dude dialing it in by hand at a recording desk. A suhccessful musician and one of the engineers sitting in a million dollar studio tweaking it and still sounding like hot garbage is not confidence building.

I recently moved on from my Bias Head, because I wanted a floorboard with effects built in to downsize. While I wait for a nicer pedal to materialize, I bought a Nux MG300 specifically BECAUSE there were clips out there that didn't sound like crap. One smart thing was getting Choptones to do early demos, and they also had them do a few presets on the US release that even include third-party IRs instead of the stockers. That's how you build confidence, forget the price point.



laxu said:


> They haven't lost anything. Even those on the preorder lists have not even paid the full price for their units! I haven't seen people getting off the preorder lists either. You also cannot even buy the unit anywhere but US where you can join the Sweetwater preorder if you did not join the preorders earlier this year. You are asking for content for a product that is not finished and not released. It remains to be seen if NeuralDSP manages to ship the intended preorder quantities in an orderly fashion and how they fare getting the units after that to retailers.
> 
> They are just now ramping up to getting video content out there close to the preorders shipping. I can understand them not wanting to send an unfinished unit out there and then get flack for issues with that. IMO they should not even have been at NAMM early this year because the unit was so clearly incomplete and buggy.
> 
> Fractal don't really need to do much marketing for the FM3 because the tone you will be getting is pretty much known. They can just say "it sounds exactly like the Axe-Fx 3". Their issue is actually delivering the product more than anything and it seems they just don't manage to do better despite having this exact issue for years now whether it was Axe-Fx 2, AX8, Axe-Fx 3 or the FM3. I guess being "so desirable that you need to get on a waiting list" is one business strategy.



Fair points.

I say "lost" because, if it's like Fractal's waitlist system right now, they send you an invite and you have the option to ignore it. If I'm on the waitlist and end up getting something else that I'm satisfied with, you lost me. Look at this thread alone, at least a couple people in the last couple pages said they're on waitlist and considering forgetting it because they're inclined to buy something else because of the trash marketing videos.

I'm not so much saying release a bugged alpha/beta. They pushed back their first wave what, a month or a little more? I don't know exactly what the issue was with that, they said shipping and production delays because of COVID but I doubt they didn't 50 or less that they could've pushed at the first deadline. Pushing it back, then getting well produced BAD sounding demos and more incremental feature updates in between is, like, the LEAST confidence building thing to do while people are waiting.


----------



## Deadpool_25

The FM3 is hard to get because people buy them. People buy them because they’re awesome.

The QC has some very cool stuff in terms of hardware and UI. That stuff seems better than the current units on the market including Fractal and even Line6, but that’ll be meaningless unless they get the sounds right.

Who’s the target audience for the QC? Recording folks? Live gig folks? Both? I’m still wondering if you can disable or minimize an amp’s power section. I’m also wondering if it’ll sound and feel as good as the FM3. I’m skeptical they can pull that off (it’s a tall order) but I’m reserving judgement for now.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> The FM3 is hard to get because people buy them. People buy them because they’re awesome.
> 
> The QC has some very cool stuff in terms of hardware and UI. That stuff seems better than the current units on the market including Fractal and even Line6, but that’ll be meaningless unless they get the sounds right.
> 
> Who’s the target audience for the QC? Recording folks? Live gig folks? Both? I’m still wondering if you can disable or minimize an amp’s power section. I’m also wondering if it’ll sound and feel as good as the FM3. I’m skeptical they can pull that off (it’s a tall order) but I’m reserving judgement for now.



I would say exactly the same folks looking to choose between a FM3, Helix Floor or Kemper Stage. The QC trumps them all in several categories:

More foot switches than FM3.
Smaller than Helix Floor/LT or Kemper Stage.
More immediate knob control than any of the others.
In theory more powerful than any of the others.
On the flip side Helix Floor has more I/O and a built-in expression pedal as well as integration with other Line6 products like the Powercab.
Fractal has the well liked Axe-Fx amp modeling and fx.

I agree that if the sounds and feel are not there then it's not going to work out. I have been testing the NeuralDSP plugins in the past few days and don't like the Cali or Omega. I could get like one sound I truly loved from each of them. The Cory Wong plugin was more versatile and I loved everything I got from the Plini. But soundwise they feel like polished guitar tones you can throw in any track but I am not so sure if they are realistic amp simulations. To me they don't sound and feel as "organic" as Helix Native or ML Sound Labs ML5 even when used with the same IRs. It's more like I am playing some sort of filtered sound.

So how accurate the amp models are remains to be seen.

On the flipside today I hooked up my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME direct from the speaker out to my Focusrite audio interface by using its -10 dB pad as Thomas Blug said that is ok to do. Through my favorite IRs I got some really good tones out of that and it was so nice to just turn a few knobs to adjust them instead of using the keyboard and mouse. Made me actually look forward to the BluGuitar Amp X again.


----------



## SamSam

Bear in mind the FM3 costs 1266eu and the Quad Cortex costs 1599.

The FM3 has over 250 amp sims, the QC has less than 100.

The FM3 (pretty screen and other trinkets aside) currently offers better value to me.

I own one and am very happy with the tones and the current videos for the QC are sub par.

I'm in tier 1 and currently a nice new ESP E2 is looking like a pretty tempting alternative.

They need to get good video demos out soon.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Randy said:


> Agreed, although I'd add the caveat that one of the demos that scared me the most is this most recent one with Kiko and a dude dialing it in by hand at a recording desk. A suhccessful musician and one of the engineers sitting in a million dollar studio tweaking it and still sounding like hot garbage is not confidence building.



Man I'm glad I'm not the only one that hated that Kiko demo. Made a preset straight from scratch and in my ears it didn't sound much better than a stock Helix patch. Dude was ranting and raving about it (even in the comments section of the video) and to me it sounded like a bad Kemper profile.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Remember when they were teasing the AX8 and they had videos of Pete Thorn, Larry Mitchell, Chris Broderick, Mark Day, etc doing gigs, in-room demos, and live tones with them and it sounded awesome from the get-go? 

That's the kind of marketing that the Quad Cortex should have.


----------



## budda

Probably gonna get flamed, but uh stock fractal presets are actually good. They took the time to make sure of it. And if you want to twist knobs, fractal products also have those . Every time someone says "yeah the III is cool but I need knobs!" I mention the perform page.

No company is going to be perfect, but when you're the newest and you've gotten to see how others do it (and their results), I think the expectation is to come out swinging. This thread makes me think that didn't happen.


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> Bear in mind the FM3 costs 1266eu and the Quad Cortex costs 1599.
> 
> The FM3 has over 250 amp sims, the QC has less than 100.
> 
> The FM3 (pretty screen and other trinkets aside) currently offers better value to me.
> 
> I own one and am very happy with the tones and the current videos for the QC are sub par.
> 
> I'm in tier 1 and currently a nice new ESP E2 is looking like a pretty tempting alternative.
> 
> They need to get good video demos out soon.



I'd argue that Fractal has more than a decade of development behind them that extends to every product they make whereas NeuralDSP is starting that journey on the hardware end. Even Helix does not have all the features Fractal has. Purely based on the number of features Fractal is king.

But at the same time absolutely nobody needs 200+ amp models. Or even 100. There's so much overlap between them. You could consolidate the Fractal modeling down to the FAS amp sims without losing a single tone - just requiring more EQ adjustments from the end user. Could do the same for Helix and QC too.

IMO QC more than makes up its higher price with its better usability based on everything I have seen of its feature set and UI.


----------



## budda

People ask for more amps of every modeller. The number they ship with is less relevant than how often than they update the list and listen to their customers about what to add. Firmware friday is a thing for some of us .


----------



## Deadpool_25

Yeah the over 200 amps of the Fractal is cool but more than anyone really needs. With that said, there are amps and FX I still want to see added to the Fractal library (Dumble SSS; Klon or even Klone—still a glaring omission).

I’m sure the QC will have effects added after release but the delay and reverb sections caught my eye. Those are pretty damn sparse for a unit at this level.


----------



## rexbinary

The QC obviously sucks and they shouldn't even bother releasing it because Axe FX and stuff.


----------



## SamSam

laxu said:


> I'd argue that Fractal has more than a decade of development behind them that extends to every product they make whereas NeuralDSP is starting that journey on the hardware end. Even Helix does not have all the features Fractal has. Purely based on the number of features Fractal is king.
> 
> But at the same time absolutely nobody needs 200+ amp models. Or even 100. There's so much overlap between them. You could consolidate the Fractal modeling down to the FAS amp sims without losing a single tone - just requiring more EQ adjustments from the end user. Could do the same for Helix and QC too.
> 
> IMO QC more than makes up its higher price with its better usability based on everything I have seen of its feature set and UI.



It's not about offering everyone that much. Its about me finding a dozen that I love, and every other player having the options and access to their favourites. My dad would choose a completely different set of favourites to me.

The QC has a third of the fractals options in that regard. It's not unreasonable to imagine how having more options is better.

With regards the button count. Having more is nice I guess. But only if we can configure them to suit our needs. 3 buttons on the Fm3 and a two button trs I could wire myself in 5 minutes with parts if have layng about covers all my needs.

The main allure of the QC right now for me is the fact I can run parallax for my bassist while I play whatever sim I take a liking to (hopefully). But again, not available on launch. And this was a huge sell for me.


----------



## runbirdman

I think as a new hardware manufacturer, Neural should have kept the lid on this until it was more fully fleshed out. At rollout, this thing looks to be inferior to competing products. If you want I/O, get a Helix. If you want high quality models, get an FM3. If you want proven abilities to accurately profile, get the Kemper. The QC looks to try and be a “greatest hits” of current products but based on the demo videos, it’s mostly inferior to the current market offerings and a lot of features are going to have to be improved over time. 

All of that doesn’t even consider the actual hardwire side of the business. Sometimes there are serious issues with products that aren’t realized until they’ve been on the market a minute. My first generation Helix had noise floor problems in the loops that ended up being a problem I just had to live with. And that’s from Line 6... historically the biggest player in the digital market since the POD and Vetta days.

I initially considered preordering this, but I’m just going to stick to my preorder for the FM3. There’s been nothing demonstrated that can’t be accomplished or approximated by the FM3.


----------



## Emperoff

For me the main reason of Helix resounding success is its availability. You can't afford to be on a waitlist if you are a session player and need a backup for whatever reason. Fractal won't see a dime from me with a waitlist, a 500€ upcharge for EU customers and not being able to purchase in my own country, when I can get a Helix Stomp anywhere for 500€. Neither will Neural it seems.

So a waitlist thing won't help Neural a single bit. If can't beat Fractal at its main (only?) weakness, you're off to a very bad start. The sounds are supposedly the same as their plugins, which are already well rated but not as good as Fractal's so there's also that.

They better ship a unit to Ola, Thorn, and Rabea to hype the product up to the stratosphere if the want people to throw money at them.


----------



## Avedas

Emperoff said:


> For me the main reason of Helix resounding success is its availability. You can't afford to be on a waitlist if you are a session player and need a backup for whatever reason. Fractal won't see a dime from me with a waitlist, a 500€ upcharge for EU customers and not being able to purchase in my own country, when I can get a Helix Stomp anywhere for 500€. Neither will Neural it seems.
> 
> So a waitlist thing won't help Neural a single bit. If can't beat Fractal at its main (only?) weakness, you're off to a very bad start. The sounds are supposedly the same as their plugins, which are already well rated but not as good as Fractal's so there's also that.
> 
> They better ship a unit to Ola, Thorn, and Rabea to hype the product up to the stratosphere if the want people to throw money at them.


Axe FX III is $4000 here. FM3 is nearly $2000. Importing an FM3 by paying extra shipping and taxes still saves you hundreds, and you still have to contend with the waitlist.

Meanwhile anyone could walk down to any music store here and pick up Helix, HX stomp, Pod Go etc. for a sane price. Line 6 distribution is too good.

Oh and +1 for for Fractal presets. My FM3 arrived recently and I was surprisingly impressed by the presets, having never owned a Fractal product before. There are certainly a lot of amps and a lot of variation on similar amps, but they're different enough to be interesting. I spent my first day with it drooling over how easy it was to get great strat tones compared to Helix with all those beautiful Dumble clone models


----------



## Elric

budda said:


> Probably gonna get flamed, but uh stock fractal presets are actually good.


You signed on for the third generation of that product. Been there since first generation. The above statement wasn't always true by a long shot. Hell half the original *IRs* S*CKED on the first generation and you could only load 10 external ones. LOL. They actually hired one of the notable Fractal Youtubers (Mark Day) and one of their employees has been helping high profile customers dial in stuff for like a decade (Admin [email protected]); so they have a bunch of people who have logged many hours on multiple generations of FAS gear who have contributed there, so I will give Neural a pass on presets; this product being their first hardware unit...

I dunno, I think Neural's gonna crush it, TBH.

A tech product is delayed? That's never happened before... LOL. I'll be impressed if anything streets before EOY with a worldwide pandemic, TBH.

Fractal missed their FM3 launch by what? More than year? Then they released a unit with "It's here! OH BTW these don't have a headphone jack..."

A Youtube demo sucked? SRS?! That's never, ever, happened. Personally, I felt the clean and mid gain tones there were great. The metal tones were just grating but everyone knows Neural knows how to do those. The Captures in the other vide were all on point, IMHO.

Only the total hardcore gearjheads are plugged into this thing at this point and its sold out for direct preorders and people are hitting up retailers with more preorders for $1500 device while the entire world is falling apart, for f*cks sake, I can't imagine how many of these things they'd sell during good times. LOL.


----------



## budda

@Elric - exactly, fractal is on mk 2 of 3rd gen and that is the direct competition. So I won't give them a pass, because they know exactly what they're up against. That's the benefit of releasing after everybody else, learning from their mistakes. Since Neural *does* have a bunch of VST's, they absolutely have 0 excuses to sound mediocre in today's digital climate.


----------



## Avedas

Elric said:


> You signed on for the third generation of that product. Been there since first generation. The above statement wasn't always true by a long shot. Hell half the original *IRs* S*CKED on the first generation and you could only load 10 external ones. LOL. They actually hired one of the notable Fractal Youtubers (Mark Day) and one of their employees has been helping high profile customers dial in stuff for like a decade (Admin [email protected]); so they have a bunch of people who have logged many hours on multiple generations of FAS gear who have contributed there, so I will give Neural a pass on presets; this product being their first hardware unit...
> 
> I dunno, I think Neural's gonna crush it, TBH.
> 
> A tech product is delayed? That's never happened before... LOL. I'll be impressed if anything streets before EOY with a worldwide pandemic, TBH.
> 
> Fractal missed their FM3 launch by what? More than year? Then they released a unit with "It's here! OH BTW these don't have a headphone jack..."
> 
> A Youtube demo sucked? SRS?! That's never, ever, happened. Personally, I felt the clean and mid gain tones there were great. The metal tones were just grating but everyone knows Neural knows how to do those. The Captures in the other vide were all on point, IMHO.
> 
> Only the total hardcore gearjheads are plugged into this thing at this point and its sold out for direct preorders and people are hitting up retailers with more preorders for $1500 device while the entire world is falling apart, for f*cks sake, I can't imagine how many of these things they'd sell during good times. LOL.


All I got from this post was that they hired a bunch of Youtubers and people who are supposedly really good at dialing in modelers, and then they put out a bunch of Youtube demos that didn't really sound that great.


----------



## Elric

budda said:


> @Elric - exactly, fractal is on mk 2 of 3rd gen and that is the direct competition. So I won't give them a pass, because they know exactly what they're up against. That's the benefit of releasing after everybody else, learning from their mistakes. Since Neural *does* have a bunch of VST's, they absolutely have 0 excuses to sound mediocre in today's digital climate.


Yes, I'm sort of expecting them to deliver as I noted, since I have found their plugins to be pretty next level... But, yes, agree with your point that by entering the game late they have to play in that arena. I.e. the current field with mature products... and if they are gonna charge $1500 for a floor unit it had better capital R Rock. At least on most fronts. 

When I first saw the feature list for this thing it was like the union of all the best features from Helix, Fractal, Kemper, even Headrush. LOL. So they got to cherry pick from everyone else's spec. So yeah it had better crush it or people will just stick with the already killer stuff that is out there.


----------



## SamSam

At this point I would rather they delay the release until next June and make sure it does every thing it was advertised to do. Especially in the sound department.

I don't tend to visit many Facebook groups for these type of products, but is it just me or is the blind fandom slightly overboard? Any criticism over there will be attacked no matter how rational the points may be.

I really want this thing to turn out great but it really seems like this is heading into No Man's Sky territory with a rough release which will be fixed over time.


----------



## Avedas

SamSam said:


> At this point I would rather they delay the release until next June and make sure it does every thing it was advertised to do. Especially in the sound department.
> 
> I don't tend to visit many Facebook groups for these type of products, but is it just me or is the blind fandom slightly overboard? Any criticism over there will be attacked no matter how rational the points may be.
> 
> I really want this thing to turn out great but it really seems like this is heading into No Man's Sky territory with a rough release which will be fixed over time.


Facebook groups and rabid fandom? Sounds like par for the course to me.


----------



## Tiger1016

The thing that had me pulling the trigger to give the QC a try though the Sweetwater preorder, where I have a return option if needed, is the Capture feature.

I have been an Axe Fx user for the past 6 years, currently have a III, and have owned a handful of great amps along the way too (Wizard Modern Classic, Mark IIC+ & V, Dual Rec Roadster, w/ the first two being my current amps). The Axe is fantastic, but it falls short on three fronts. 

1) Having the exact tones that I want. The Wizard amp is kind of untouchable and there is nothing in the Axe that comes close enough to it for me. Also, I am into certain pedals that are also not well represented in the Axe (Airis Savage Drive, Nebula, and Parallel Tube Screamer along with KSR Eros and Deadweald Duality DX. And I want to be able to save my hard earned tones down to digital presets for convenience sake a lot of times. 

2) The Axe Fx III is easily not portable enough for me, for a quick breakdown and set up when I would like to move from my study to living room or game room for some less antisocial practice sessions while being around my kids. Something like the FM3 could have been a worthy alternative if it was full featured with dual amp capabilities, the upgraded Pitch block, two loops, and the same product development of the flagship, but it was a fail for me because of these shortfalls. 

3) It is not good enough for dialing in tones from the front of the unit. I am dependent on always having my computer attached for even minor preset tweaking. This adds to the portability issue that I noted in #2.

I am a legit Fractal fan though, and I would much rather they eventually come out with a competing and better profiling/capture feature, a truly easier to use interface, and a more portable unit that is not handicapped in any way. Because I would do everything that I can to stick with or go back to them.

Unfortunately, the QC, if it even turns out to be a keeper, looks like it will frustratingly fall short of being capable of eliminating my need for the Axe Fx. The issue is it appears the unit will be locked down during the Capture process. Therefore, in order to create the full signal chain captures that I had been planning, I'll need a bunch of outboard gear to pull it all off. The Axe has everything that I would need and would be close enough to the replacement cost with dedicated units. This was something that just came to light on TGP yesterday. i.e. If you want to capture a full signal chain such as drive pedal, amp, EQ in amps FX loop, IR, post EQ and compression, you'll need a second interface, EQ pedal, and won't be able to use the QC's cool virtual mic IR feature. This is a big bummer and TBD if it will be a deal killer.

Also, Neural has been eerily silent on TGP on their planned road map for future amp model additions being a free feature like it has been with its competitors vs. a paid for upgrade once they get through providing all of the amps that they already listed. Until they come out and clear this up, I am skeptical about how I feel about the company given the Tesla like drama with overpromising and underdelivering on the QC release so far. I mean, two weeks after the opened up Sweetwater preorders, with commentary to Swwetwater to commit to a Nov 27th date but to potentially expect Nov 13th as a likely case, they then realize they are going to struggle to get the units off before the end of the year, looks either really amateur or shady and either is not a good look.


----------



## budda

For #2, just have a cheap speaker/frfr setup in the second room. Headrush 110s are cheap. If a 3U is too hard to move but you didnt mind moving tube heads, the axe fx doesnt seem like the issue . 

As for #3, like anything else its easier with practice. Did you shred the first year you played?

Your issues are valid but most of them seem easy to overcome.


----------



## broangiel

budda said:


> For #2, just have a cheap speaker/frfr setup in the second room. Headrush 110s are cheap. If a 3U is too hard to move but you didnt mind moving tube heads, the axe fx doesnt seem like the issue .
> 
> As for #3, like anything else its easier with practice. Did you shred the first year you played?
> 
> Your issues are valid but most of them seem easy to overcome.



especially with the perform page. I will never understand the complaints about the axe interface since the advent of the perform page. Sure you may have to dig into the unit for effects settings, but as far as a raw amp is concerned, it’s e-z-p-z.


----------



## Tiger1016

budda said:


> For #2, just have a cheap speaker/frfr setup in the second room. Headrush 110s are cheap. If a 3U is too hard to move but you didnt mind moving tube heads, the axe fx doesnt seem like the issue .
> 
> As for #3, like anything else its easier with practice. Did you shred the first year you played?
> 
> Your issues are valid but most of them seem easy to overcome.



I think you got the wrong impression due to me not trying to go into overkill on the length more than I already did. The tube amps stay put all of the time. Was wishing the Axe would be more portable though, and this was in the context of using headphones for throughout the house uses (speakers in the living room aint happening with the wife, but the iLoud by IK would be my choice if I wanted a good portable FRFR option). I could leave the FC6 out of this scenario if all I wanted to do was dial in tones, which is part of the deal sometimes. But the need for my laptop a lot of the time is where things fall apart on the portability scenario. I need to be able to grab and go in one trip. 1 guitar takes up 1 hand (and I only need 1 thanks to the Axe's awesome Pitch shifter now and Fluence Merrow pickups bringing the versatility), and I need to be able to carry everything else in the other hand. And I need to be able to break it all down in a flash because a 3 year old and 1 year old can be unpredictable, among many other things.



broangiel said:


> especially with the perform page. I will never understand the complaints about the axe interface since the advent of the perform page. Sure you may have to dig into the unit for effects settings, but as far as a raw amp is concerned, it’s e-z-p-z.



The great thing about the Axe is all of the tone shaping power, which is something I have come to rely on. The problem for me, for the occasions that I would like more portability, is this truly does require the use of Axe Edit, which is great at what it is.

Diving in to tweak the 10 band GEQ that I use in the loop of the IIC+ model or my real IIC+, the parametric EQ and multi band compressor that I use post IR, impedance curves, hunting down and blending 3 different IRs are all things that I get into with all of my patches these days. Diving in to tweak all of this from the front of the unit is a non starter after giving it a try a few times. Trying to create a new preset from scratch with this level of complication is a virtual impossibility. Sure common and basic quick tweaks using the Performance Screen does make some things simple and can be good enough for a lot of people. Just does not do it for me for these reasons. 

The ease of tweaking without a computer was a big part of the appeal with the QC though. The solution to my complaint about needing a full redundant set of outboard gear just for the Capture process with the QC has very straight forward answer. I am going to have to keep the Axe Fx III around for the long term for a frustrating amount of limited use scenarios. That is $2k that I had intentions on doing something else with. Also, that implies space and clutter issues along with the pain of a bunch of cable rerouting that I was needing to avoid.

What I am effectively complaining about is that I realized just yesterday that the cost of ownership with the QC just went up $2k for me yesterday since I am going to have to keep the Axe Fx around. TBD if the juice is worth the squeeze for me at the end of the day. Still going to go through with the buy from Sweetwater when/if that ever comes to fruition, because the QC is very intriguing to me for a long list of reasons. It is looking like less of the perfect unicorn that it originally did to me, but it still might be the best option for me at the end of the day, albeit a much more expensive one.


----------



## budda

What about deep diving is difficult? Genuine question as a fellow AE user. But I have used the panel a bit. Its pretty easy (to me) to tab to the block you want, click edit, use the page buttons to get to where you need to tweak, hit save and then hit home. Also may I ask how often you're building patches? To me it seems like when you move to the kid zone, you're just playing and not tweaking. Axe headphones and a guitar is indeed 1 trip at that point. Why wouldnt you just use presets you've already made for that? You say creating complex patches from the panel is super difficult, yet its something many users do. The buttons are all there for easy navigation. But as I said before, why try to build or tweak patches when you're playing around your kids? That seems like the worst time to focus on tweaking tones .


----------



## Tiger1016

budda said:


> What about deep diving is difficult? Genuine question as a fellow AE user. But I have used the panel a bit. Its pretty easy (to me) to tab to the block you want, click edit, use the page buttons to get to where you need to tweak, hit save and then hit home. Also may I ask how often you're building patches? To me it seems like when you move to the kid zone, you're just playing and not tweaking. Axe headphones and a guitar is indeed 1 trip at that point. Why wouldnt you just use presets you've already made for that? You say creating complex patches from the panel is super difficult, yet its something many users do. The buttons are all there for easy navigation. But as I said before, why try to build or tweak patches when you're playing around your kids? That seems like the worst time to focus on tweaking tones .



I'll freely admit that I have not tried to force myself to get more efficient at using the front panel on the Axe, so I am definitely not as proficient as you. I though there was a fair consensus thought among the users that Axe Edit is much quicker and easier than using the front panel. Perhaps it is not as big of a difference though once you get the muscle memory down.

Re: living room scenario. I guess I have succumbed to accepting that there are too many distractions for more serious playing when I am around my kids or in the living room in general. My main headphones right now are open backs, which is helpful for me to hear everything going on whether it is my kids or maybe trying to partly keep up with a game. So these scenarios are a better time for trying to make a half ass attempt at learning a new song that I would like to be able to cover. Sometimes a new song requires a different tone that I currently have setup, and living room sessions seem to be a better opportunity for me to do some of the more mindless setup stuff so that I am able to jump right into a song once I have some real time to myself and can focus. Pulling off setting up new presets from the front panel is certainly doable, but Axe Edit is significantly quicker and easier, for me at least. It can sometimes make the difference between being able to more nimbly start running with an inspiration vs. getting bogged down with spending more time on the setup. I naturally leave the final fine tuning for when I am in front my my Atomic CLRs, but I have learned how to get great starting results from just using my headphones.

And being honest, unless I wind up moving to where one of my friends lives who I had gotten really close to joining his band a few times, which is actually a possibility, I won't be doing any gigging any time soon. I have turned down a few opportunities for some fun cover band stuff over the past number of years because I could not make it fit with everything I had going on in life. So I am basically just an obsessive hobbyist at this point with a painfully busy schedule that leads to the struggles with free time to actually enjoy this stuff as much as I would like to. So anything that helps me save some time and get to jamming more quickly, and/or allows me to enjoy jamming at home even more is a win for me. The Axe Fx III is great and I am a diehard Fractal supporter and always will be. But it seems like the QC could be a better fit for me at this time. TBD if that turns out to be the case as the fall back, status quo option has definitely spoiled us all and creates understandably high expectations. It is a lot of fun to see a new entrant in this space that has a chance at being a bit of a game changer though if they can pull it off and live up to the hype.

edit: I did not answer your first question. The most obvious and seemingly unavoidable challenge for me with using the front panel is I use the RTA real time analyzer block to help me better visualize certain frequencies that I want to shape more to my liking. Typically the solution is to tweak the parametric EQ or compressor at then end of the signal chain, maybe it is the 10 band QEQ in the loop of a Mark amp, or maybe I need to try to pull down the impedance curve spike that is causing some clipping in the low end. Then I need to go back to the RTA to check once I make a tweak, then I might need to go back and make another tweak. The number of front panel clicks might be close to 50x the number of mouse clicks with Axe Edit to go through all of this, especially if we are talking about making some bigger preset changes rather than smaller incremental changes.


----------



## budda

Pro tip: dont tone chase to learn material. Clean, crunch or distortion. Means more time to actually play. Then tone chase. 

Imo.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Pro tip: dont tone chase to learn material. Clean, crunch or distortion. Means more time to actually play. Then tone chase.
> 
> Imo.



Which is why I love my Triaxis. Got those down the first day. Then everytime I fancy something different, it's just is a few button presses away.

If I want it to sound more british, german or whatever I just swap the cab and poweramp sim settings, and done.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> Which is why I love my Triaxis. Got those down the first day. Then everytime I fancy something different, it's just is a few button presses away.
> 
> If I want it to sound more british, german or whatever I just swap the cab and poweramp sim settings, and done.



I built presets for each guitar. But generally im either clean or chugging  just a scroll away.


----------



## Mathemagician

Bro 0% financing on Neural and a product that is actually launching (hopefully) in a month. Or I can wait 9+ months for a waitlist a lot. It’s not a cost/value issue for me as the prices are all similar it’s “I want to play with my toy not wait for it”.

And if it can do a FiddyOneFiddy well then I’m like 70% there. 

If anything it’s like launching anything after a WoW, Walmart, Amazon, Giant Bank, etc already exists. Not going to get mad at a new entrant in the arena.

But I don’t blame people for waiting it out. It’s what I do for 90% of my purchases.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> I built presets for each guitar. But generally im either clean or chugging  just a scroll away.



That's actually a good idea. I might do it at some point when my guitars don't decide to fuck up all at the same time.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> That's actually a good idea. I might do it at some point when my guitars don't decide to fuck up all at the same time.



My kitchen sink attempt (also my first preset attempt) just turned into a preset for one guitar after I got practice building them. Debating a new kitchen sink preset.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> especially with the perform page. I will never understand the complaints about the axe interface since the advent of the perform page. Sure you may have to dig into the unit for effects settings, but as far as a raw amp is concerned, it’s e-z-p-z.



To me the perform page is an improvement but a half assed one. It lets you map what, 10 parameters? I ran out of knobs on my 16 knob MIDI controller just trying to map the amp and cab block controls I would normally adjust. 10 is nowhere enough and there is no reason other than memory why you can't add 100 parameters to the perform view.

I actually built a software for the Axe-Fx 2 that translated MIDI commands to SysEx and read the values from Axe-Fx back to the software and then showed a graphical UI for the control you mapped. It allowed for more extensive MIDI mapping than the actual unit allowed. It was the perform page probably like a year before it actually appeared on the Axe-Fx 3. The difference is mine had no limit on the number of params on each page and it let you switch between sets of parameters using MIDI or your mouse. So you could have say set 1 control amp and cab block, set 2 control delay and reverb and so on. The problem with this was that I was still tied to a computer. I considered building a headless Raspberry Pi version that would hook up to the Axe-Fx and MIDI controller and then just run the config you made on the computer so you could use MIDI controllers better with the Axe-Fx but ultimately decided to just sell my Axe-Fx and bought a Line6 Helix which was the inspiration of my project in the first place.

The problem with Fractal is the lightning focus on modeling and very little effort put in user interface improvements. There's so many low hanging fruit that have been out there for years on their wishlist forum. I used Fractal for about 9 years altogether and the only UI improvements I saw were generational ones. Every other thing was modeling improvements and fixes. They desperately need to hire a UI designer/developer to focus on improving that part of their units.

Fractal could easily fix a lot of their front panel inconveniences with a couple of simple things:

Add a toggleable "quick look" section to the grid that lets you show a single row of params at the bottom of the screen when moving in the grid. There is more than enough room for this, not seeing the whole grid is not an issue. This is similar to how Line6 Helix and QC works. This is in fact exactly how Axe-Edit works! This prevents going to different views all the time and keeps you centered on the grid. Changing amp, then cab settings would be just moving the cursor and turning the knobs instead of high light block, click edit, adjust, click exit, repeat.
Expand the perform page. Double, triple, quadruple the number of parameters you can show here and most users would never need to venture into the grid editing again.
I honestly don't expect to see these sort of things until the Axe-Fx IV is released in X years time.


----------



## budda

You need to change 16 parameters on the fly?


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> You need to change 16 parameters on the fly?



When the alternative is a lot of menu diving, sure. It quickly adds up if you have say gain, treble, middle, bass, presence from the amp block then maybe delay time, feedback, overdrive gain, volume, tone...things that on a real amp/pedal setup would be knobs you can just reach but on a digital system can be behind a bunch of menus. On the Helix it's super fast to access them thanks to capacitive buttons for selecting blocks but on the Axe-Fx you are going to rely on menuing, cursor movement or bashing the edit button to move between blocks.

To me most of the improvements on the digital side nowadays are all about improving workflows so it's fast and efficient to change things and experiment. The QC is not going to sound better than an Axe-Fx, but if it is in the same ballpark _and_ a lot faster to use then that's all worth it.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> When the alternative is a lot of menu diving, sure. It quickly adds up if you have say gain, treble, middle, bass, presence from the amp block then maybe delay time, feedback, overdrive gain, volume, tone...things that on a real amp/pedal setup would be knobs you can just reach but on a digital system can be behind a bunch of menus. On the Helix it's super fast to access them thanks to capacitive buttons for selecting blocks but on the Axe-Fx you are going to rely on menuing, cursor movement or bashing the edit button to move between blocks.
> 
> To me most of the improvements on the digital side nowadays are all about improving workflows so it's fast and efficient to change things and experiment. The QC is not going to sound better than an Axe-Fx, but if it is in the same ballpark _and_ a lot faster to use then that's all worth it.



Again - 16 parameters on the fly?

I dont know anyone who does that in 5 years of touring across north america.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't consider myself the most tech savvy person, not by a long shot, but I have no problem editing or creating AxeFx patches on the front end, and I still have the dinosaur that is the IIXL+. I'm all for making it easier, and I definitely think it can be better executed, but it's never been something I'd consider worth moving to a different product entirely over. 

Different strokes and all that.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Again - 16 parameters on the fly?
> 
> I dont know anyone who does that in 5 years of touring across north america.



Again, I point to the fact that anyone with a traditional rig easily has that many at their disposal, whether it's on amp or pedals. We just don't think about it because they're just real knobs. Sure, on a digital setup you will have a whole lot preprogrammed but it's getting to the stuff you might want to change on the fly quickly whether it's live or in a studio. Now on the Axe-Fx 3 you need to make your choices for the 10 you have available. If more were possible, you could populate those for the times you need them.

To me the mapping was meant for having immediate control using real knobs on a MIDI controller. Basically replicating the kind of setup I can have on a real amp or pedal where it's reach knob -> change setting. Because MIDI CC mapping on all the modelers out there just plain suck this isn't as easy as it should be.


----------



## budda

So we can agree that people aren't usually adjusting more than 10 settings at a gig on any given night.

Worth noting that you can set up per-preset performance controls as well as global perform controls.


----------



## Thaeon

I'm going to have to agree. I like some pretty complex FX settings... And sometimes I'll fiddle with them live. If I want that in a pedal, I'll use the pedal. There's a loop on the QC. I'm not interested in playing with all the available knobs on my Big Sky. Regardless of how cool it all sounds. That level of utility I think is no where near normal for even heavy FX users.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> So we can agree that people aren't usually adjusting more than 10 settings at a gig on any given night.
> 
> Worth noting that you can set up per-preset performance controls as well as global perform controls.



I think we can also agree that it's a pretty artificial limitation. Request for pages of controls on the Perform screen has been on the Fractal wishlist forum since last year. It seems like a very simple thing to add that would give more flexibility for those who do want more.

I'm looking forward to being able to read the QC manual to see what kind of limitations it has on release.


----------



## sakeido

the only time I've ever touched my amp at a gig, it's because I accidentally bumped some knobs during gear haul and had to put em back where they were.. this is not an issue with a digital modeler.

The first modeler to actually have a Good User Interface will be the one I can sync with a phone. Until then, they all suck equally. Helix is supposedly the best but I still needed to read the manual to figure out some of the more important features. I found Axe was pretty intuitive in a nerdy programmer sense, right from the beginning with my first Axe FX Standard. Kemper is nice cuz it has physical knobs but you sure don't wanna touch em because the profiles fall apart the moment you change settings. Cortex looks pretty I guess?

Just let me bluetooth into this shit and change it from my super clear, ultra high resolution, fast, multi-touch compatible phone that is available to me 24/7. Save all that money on your hardware touch screen and buttons, and make the unit cheaper. Then I can sit in my listening position, don't have to hunch over and bend down, whatever. Hell I can walk out onto the floor and change settings from where the audience is going to stand and audition my tone through FoH.

All the rest of this stuff is, honestly, a complete waste of time & money compared to that


----------



## Tiger1016

sakeido said:


> the only time I've ever touched my amp at a gig, it's because I accidentally bumped some knobs during gear haul and had to put em back where they were.. this is not an issue with a digital modeler.
> 
> The first modeler to actually have a Good User Interface will be the one I can sync with a phone. Until then, they all suck equally. Helix is supposedly the best but I still needed to read the manual to figure out some of the more important features. I found Axe was pretty intuitive in a nerdy programmer sense, right from the beginning with my first Axe FX Standard. Kemper is nice cuz it has physical knobs but you sure don't wanna touch em because the profiles fall apart the moment you change settings. Cortex looks pretty I guess?
> 
> Just let me bluetooth into this shit and change it from my super clear, ultra high resolution, fast, multi-touch compatible phone that is available to me 24/7. Save all that money on your hardware touch screen and buttons, and make the unit cheaper. Then I can sit in my listening position, don't have to hunch over and bend down, whatever. Hell I can walk out onto the floor and change settings from where the audience is going to stand and audition my tone through FoH.
> 
> All the rest of this stuff is, honestly, a complete waste of time & money compared to that



Or one day, hopefully soon, when you reach the next level and are playing huge venues that exceed the range of Bluetooth you'll want wifi instead. But you'll have a team of pros to handle that part for you by then.

But yeah I was thinking there was going to be a mobile app editor as well based on the pic on the website. Kind of bummed that does not seem to be the case.

If bluetooth editing is something you want, and the Axe Fx works for you, look into the FracPad program. Seems like it might get you everything you were wanting.


----------



## sakeido

Tiger1016 said:


> Or one day, hopefully soon, when you reach the next level and are playing huge venues that exceed the range of Bluetooth you'll want wifi instead. But you'll have a team of pros to handle that part for you by then.
> 
> But yeah I was thinking there was going to be a mobile app editor as well based on the pic on the website. Kind of bummed that does not seem to be the case.
> 
> If bluetooth editing is something you want, and the Axe Fx works for you, look into the FracPad program. Seems like it might get you everything you were wanting.



between Neural plugins and my Rectifier I'm good for now.. gigs are RIP so I'm not on the market for a lightweight show setup either. FracPad sounds interesting but isn't first party, which is a bit of a bummer.


----------



## budda

sakeido said:


> between Neural plugins and my Rectifier I'm good for now.. gigs are RIP so I'm not on the market for a lightweight show setup either. FracPad sounds interesting but isn't first party, which is a bit of a bummer.



To my understanding, fracpad is rock solid, up to date and given their presence on FAS forums I'd take it Cliff is cool with it . 

I think the bluetooth thing was addressed when the III came out, but I can't remember what the post was.


----------



## MetalDaze

I'm on the first preorder list, but now I'm wondering if this product was designed for someone like me. My plan is the run the QC into one of my many Fryette power amps (I have EL34, 6L6, and KT88 versions).

However, the FAQ says:


> *How do I use Quad Cortex live?*
> Send the main outputs to a solid-state power amp, FRFR cab, and/or mixing console.



I don't use solid state power amps and I definitely do not have a FRFR cab. Is it going to sound like ass?


----------



## Tiger1016

MetalDaze said:


> I'm on the first preorder list, but now I'm wondering if this product was designed for someone like me. My plan is the run the QC into one of my many Fryette power amps (I have EL34, 6L6, and KT88 versions).
> 
> However, the FAQ says:
> 
> 
> I don't use solid state power amps and I definitely do not have a FRFR cab. Is it going to sound like ass?



It seems that out of the gate QC does not appear that it will able to run its models with the power amp modeling part turned off and Neural has been silent so far on making a commitment to add this feature down the road. 

On the other hand, I believe Fractal Axe Fx users who use the Fryette power station do so with power amp modeling turned on but with some deep editing tweaks (believe it might be something like resonance turned off in the power amp modeling). Might want to look into this part more yourself as I am not well versed in it myself.

If you main use involves doing Captures of various preamps that you have on hand and running these into you various power amps, then the QC would work great for you.

One of the best value solidstate power amps for modelers appears to be the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 at $400, so that might be something to consider selling something off to buy instead if the QC seems like it could otherwise be something that would work well for you.


----------



## Mathemagician

I’m assuming I can run the QC through my Kemper power amp/loop into a cab. If I’m misunderstanding something then I need to figure out how I’m going to utilize it aside from headphones/desktop monitors.


----------



## Tiger1016

Mathemagician said:


> I’m assuming I can run the QC through my Kemper power amp/loop into a cab. If I’m misunderstanding something then I need to figure out how I’m going to utilize it aside from headphones/desktop monitors.



That should totally work. I assume you would be keeping the Kemper around for just a little bit to make sure the QC is a keeper before selling the Kemper? If so, I have seen multiple comments that the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 uses the same power amp as what is in the powered Kemper. So you could buy that afterwards.

I don't even own the SD PS and I just made two back to back comments recommending it lol.


----------



## MetalDaze

Looking at this further, the Fryette PS100 (KT88 based) is supposed to be fairly neutral. Since I already have that, I can try it first, but the SD could be a good alternative.

I guess the big thing for me is still being able to use standard guitar cabs.


----------



## Mathemagician

Tiger1016 said:


> That should totally work. I assume you would be keeping the Kemper around for just a little bit to make sure the QC is a keeper before selling the Kemper? If so, I have seen multiple comments that the Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 uses the same power amp as what is in the powered Kemper. So you could buy that afterwards.
> 
> I don't even own the SD PS and I just made two back to back comments recommending it lol.



This is basically it. If it can profile almost as good as the Kemper and model almost as good as the Axe then I’m going to be pretty happy.


----------



## laxu

MetalDaze said:


> Looking at this further, the Fryette PS100 (KT88 based) is supposed to be fairly neutral. Since I already have that, I can try it first, but the SD could be a good alternative.
> 
> I guess the big thing for me is still being able to use standard guitar cabs.



I liked how the Fryette PS2 sounded when used with my Line6 Helix so the PS100 should work great with the QC.


----------



## Flappydoodle

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> What about alleviating computer processing by doing it in a box?
> 
> I doubt current plugins can cover all the tones an axefx3 can, but I may be wrong.
> 
> Tweaking the tone later with what? Do you mean reamping with an actual cab-amp or just tweaking the tone on the dry track with your plugin later?
> 
> Are you saying rack units like AxeFx only have a use for live stuff?
> 
> Not being confrontational, just trying to understand your point.



No confrontation at all

I think plugins easily cover the tones an AxeFX can. There is every sort of amp sim imaginable available, plus way more delays, reverbs and other FX available in plugin format.

And yeah, tweaking the tone I mean that you simply change the plugin settings on the DI track. If you want to do that with AxeFX, you actually need to re-amp - playing the DI back through the new settings and recording it. That has a number of problems: 

First, it takes ages. If you have a 5 minute songs, double tracked, that's 10 minutes just to re-amp once. And that's the bare minimum. Most likely you'll have multiple tracks, different layers etc. By contrast, a plugin is literally instant. Chang the settings, amp model, cab impulse or whatever, and hear the effect live.

Second, it adds noise to the track. You can record a clean DI with a nice interface, but then sending it out, through the AxeFX and back, does add more noise than you had before.

I think AxeFX only really makes sense for live use, where you have a one-box solution, all your tones programmed and ready, accessible by foot controlled, and the whole thing is relatively foolproof.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

@Flappydoodle did they introduce a workaround to all this reamping with AFX3? It seems pretty suboptimal to not be able to work on a tone in the mix.


----------



## Kaura

Another video about the capture feature. If anyone even cares at this point...


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Delayed again, if anyone cares.

I canceled my preorder and joined the axefx3 waitlist.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I'm actually really looking forward to this.


----------



## Randy

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Delayed again, if anyone cares.
> 
> I canceled my preorder and joined the axefx3 waitlist.



FM3 shooting up the list fast, too. I had a late August waitlist and I'm likely to get my invite tomorrow or Wednesday. I also found a used non-headphone model I was able to get used for the same amount I'll be able to resell for, that's held me over the last few months.

In short, fuck this thing until proven otherwise.

Also, the earlier video, the profile sounds nothing like the Bogner he was running through.


----------



## Randy




----------



## MaxOfMetal

Oof.


----------



## mpexus

Randy said:


> FM3 shooting up the list fast, too. I had a late August waitlist and I'm likely to get my invite tomorrow or Wednesday.



Im on the waiting list since February and I havent heard shit from them... but I'm in Europe...


----------



## Metropolis

mpexus said:


> Im on the waiting list since February and I havent heard shit from them... but I'm in Europe...



That's even worse than QC launch delayed couple of months. Fractal will never have proper distribution network and planning.

To my ears profile in the video sounds almost identical, might be closer than what Kemper does. But it's still not proven and sounds like a zoom pedal...


----------



## narad

fanbois gonna fanboi


----------



## Randy

mpexus said:


> Im on the waiting list since February and I havent heard shit from them... but I'm in Europe...



G66 right? Yeah I heard the distribution timeline there is a mess, sorry. :\


----------



## Randy

Metropolis said:


> That's even worse than QC launch delayed couple of months. Fractal will never have proper distribution network and planning.
> 
> To my ears profile in the video sounds almost identical, might be closer than what Kemper does. But it's still not proven and sounds like a zoom pedal...



Is that your Sweetwater review? I'm assuming since the field of people who are experts in things that don't exist yet is probably quite small.


----------



## mpexus

Randy said:


> G66 right? Yeah I heard the distribution timeline there is a mess, sorry. :\


Yeap

I assume they dont get as many Units sent to them, since Fractal most certain prefers to fulfill the US Orders first...


----------



## Metropolis

Randy said:


> Is that your Sweetwater review? I'm assuming since the field of people who are experts in things that don't exist yet is probably quite small.



Nope, haven't even pre ordered it, though I was really on the fence of doing it when they started taking orders. Probably waiting for the worst anticipation hype to go away and get it next year.


----------



## Randy

No haterade here, I was in the potential buyers market considering I bought a $1000+ modeler and I've even still got my eye on a Kemper Stage. If it married profiling with quality effects, a huge screen and all those I/Os at that price point, it would actually be the best unit it the bunch.

But I have not liked the marketing from day 1, and the delays are not a good look. I'm not saying dogpiling the thing is some noble job or official duty as a mod, but being here as long as I have, we've had enough companies swoop in and predatorally steal money from members on here and deliver a flawed or non existent product. 

I dunno who's involved with this now, but I believe Engage was doing marketing work for Neural at one point, and they were using Nolly in their marketing as well. While Nolly seems like a decent guy, the whole djent influencer scene was the biggest pipeline for stealing money from the community for 10 years going. 

Slick marketing, celebrity endorsements, meaningless adjectives, influencer reviews, and then a mountain of delays. Any of that sound familiar to anybody? So yeah, I think it's entirely right to be skeptical and voice it until anything here is proven. More delays sandwiched between incremental feature announcements doesn't do much to build confidence.

Anyway I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## narad

Randy said:


> No haterade here, I was in the potential buyers market considering I bought a $1000+ modeler and I've even still got my eye on a Kemper Stage. If it married profiling with quality effects, a huge screen and all those I/Os at that price point, it would actually be the best unit it the bunch.
> 
> But I have not liked the marketing from day 1, and the delays are not a good look. I'm not saying dogpiling the thing is some noble job or official duty as a mod, but being here as long as I have, we've had enough companies swoop in and predatorally steal money from members on here and deliver a flawed or non existent product.
> 
> I dunno who's involved with this now, but I believe Engage was doing marketing work for Neural at one point, and they were using Nolly in their marketing as well. While Nolly seems like a decent guy, the whole djent influencer scene was the biggest pipeline for stealing money from the community for 10 years going.
> 
> Slick marketing, celebrity endorsements, meaningless adjectives, influencer reviews, and then a mountain of delays. Any of that sound familiar to anybody? So yeah, I think it's entirely right to be skeptical and voice it until anything here is proven. More delays sandwiched between incremental feature announcements doesn't do much to build confidence.
> 
> Anyway I hope I'm wrong.



They lost me at "algorithmically perfect". And double lost me at "biomimetic AI technology".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> They lost me at "algorithmically perfect". And double lost me at "biomimetic AI technology".



You just don't understand machine learning.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> You just don't understand machine learning.



Well I've watched Ex Machina about five thousand times so...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Well I've watched Ex Machina about five thousand times so...



Yeah, but have you seen _all three_ Matrix films?


----------



## Crundles

narad said:


> "biomimetic"



"Our 10-month research into fungal growth patterns has enabled us to develop a new, radically synergistic colour scheme for our product, that..."


----------



## nickgray

narad said:


> They lost me at "algorithmically perfect". And double lost me at "biomimetic AI technology".



Haha, their "2ghz" processor is a 500mhz quad core. By their logic, I'm running a 16ghz CPU right now (which feels pretty good, I'll be honest).


----------



## Bite the Strings

narad said:


> They lost me at "algorithmically perfect". And double lost me at "biomimetic AI technology".



'algorithmically perfect' becomes twice as funny if you consider that ANNs are inherently statistical and therefore per definition never perfect beyond a very limited scope at best.
'biomimetic AI technology' is also quite funny. It translates to: 'hey this stuff is based on some simplified model of a neuron from the 70s so its technically an imitation of biological stuff. Also Neural Networks are a subdiscipline of AI right?'. Marketing is a wonderfully horrible world...



nickgray said:


> Haha, their "2ghz" processor is a 500mhz quad core. By their logic, I'm running a 16ghz CPU right now (which feels pretty good, I'll be honest).



The computational power is not as much of a factor as you might think. I couldnt find anything about how they actually implemented their ANN integration(probably for obvious reasons) but if its more than just automated parameter tweaking it becomes pretty efficient if your architecture is deployed fully trained. One of the first commercial applications for ANNs was in the optimization of automatic gearshifts and the whole network took so little space and power that they put it on a very small board with other stuff. Filling space so to speak.
I however doubt that they do the full translation ANN based. Its just way too unstable given the range of potential inputs. So it might be a factor, might not be...


----------



## Mathemagician

And this is why I preordered via sweetwater. They will happily move any money I would have paid towards another product or refund me. Fractal has 10+ years of delivering on products at the very least to lean on.


----------



## laxu

I'm sold on "biomimetic".  Put one on preorder on Thomann. I figured might as well give it a try and send it back if I don't like it for some reason.


----------



## lurè

Setting up a patch on the quad cortex be like:


----------



## Drunkbag

Looks like NDSP is having a 50% off sale on all of their plugins if anyone's interested


----------



## DropTheSun

Neural DSP is giving away a Quad Cortex everyday, until Nov 30th !! https://gleam.io/cpzUn/quad-cortex-daily-giveaway-black-friday-2020?gsr=cpzUn-5lXc4p3qHl

Insane startup for the Black Friday. Good luck to everyone!

EDIT: Referral link removed


----------



## laxu

DropTheSun said:


> Neural DSP is giving away a Quad Cortex everyday, until Nov 30th !! https://wn.nr/83UKsN
> 
> Insane startup for the Black Friday. Good luck to everyone!



And here's the link to the giveaway WITHOUT a referral link: https://gleam.io/cpzUn/quad-cortex-daily-giveaway-black-friday-2020


----------



## Deadpool_25

narad said:


> Well I've watched Ex Machina about five thousand times so...



Fuck yeah. That movie is awesome. 

Side note: just canceled my preorder for the QC.


----------



## Mathemagician

Deadpool_25 said:


> Fuck yeah. That movie is awesome.
> 
> Side note: just canceled my preorder for the QC.


Am I......the last biometrically quantum enhanced pre-order samurai?


----------



## diagrammatiks

I'm also giving away 10 copies of my phd dissertation. 

finish date tbd. but it will blow your mind.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm also giving away 10 copies of my phd dissertation.
> 
> finish date tbd. but it will blow your mind.



Between the two, I think I'm going to hold out for the dissertation. It's bound to make less spurious claims (after corrections).


----------



## Xaios

Mathemagician said:


> Am I......the last biometrically quantum enhanced pre-order samurai?


No, sorry, Keanu Reeves still has the market cornered on those at least until Cyberpunk 2077 releases. A game which, despite delays, is still coming out before this thing.


----------



## bigcupholder

narad said:


> They lost me at "algorithmically perfect". And double lost me at "biomimetic AI technology".


Biomimetic AI could refer to a few things. It could be referring to neural nets in general, which are extremely loosely based on neurons (and have only moved further from that initial inspiration in the past 50 years). It could be using a perception-based loss function to train the models. Or it could be using a GAN (training to fool a second neural net that's alternatively trained to discriminate the real amp sounds from the modeler sounds) with the discriminator network based on human hearing.

Or it could all be marketing babble and they've repackaged an old pocket pod from 15 years ago.


----------



## narad

bigcupholder said:


> Biomimetic AI could refer to a few things. It could be referring to neural nets in general, which are extremely loosely based on neurons (and have only moved further from that initial inspiration in the past 50 years). It could be using a perception-based loss function to train the models. Or it could be using a GAN (training to fool a second neural net that's alternatively trained to discriminate the real amp sounds from the modeler sounds) with the discriminator network based on human hearing.
> 
> Or it could all be marketing babble and they've repackaged an old pocket pod from 15 years ago.



I think it's likely a scaled loss function that roughly follows human auditory perception, not unlike the type of bias baked into mel-spectrogram-based losses used in like 90% of all ML audio over the past 2+ years. Either way, it's marketing bullshit.


----------



## Xaios

Obviously it's midichlorians.


----------



## Thaeon

I don't care about the marketing nonsense. Everyone uses nonsense to market products. I only care that the unit sounds as good as the plugins and that I can port the ones I own over to it. I didn't pre-order this (or Cyberpunk 2077), so I haven't been disappointed. I'd rather the quality issues happen before launch than for the end result to be rushed and half baked.


----------



## Randy

Thaeon said:


> I don't care about the marketing nonsense. Everyone uses nonsense to market products. I only care that the unit sounds as good as the plugins and that I can port the ones I own over to it. I didn't pre-order this (or Cyberpunk 2077), so I haven't been disappointed. I'd rather the quality issues happen before launch than for the end result to be rushed and half baked.



Well, the complaint isn't so much the annoying marketing as much as it is making claims that are impossible to quantify, so when they deliver a product (late) that sucks, there's no culpability because they hung their sales on marketing language that didn't mean anything. 

"Hello, Neural? Yes, I'd like to return my QC. It's not Bimemetic enough"


----------



## Thaeon

Randy said:


> Well, the complaint isn't so much the annoying marketing as much as it is making claims that are impossible to quantify, so when they deliver a product (late) that sucks, there's no culpability because they hung their sales on marketing language that didn't mean anything.
> 
> "Hello, Neural? Yes, I'd like to return my QC. It's not Bimemetic enough"



I get it. They are not the only company that does this. There are plenty reputable companies that do. Making the assumption that it sucks before it seeing mass market is getting a little ahead of things. This is also why I almost never preorder anything other that albums from bands I like. At least if the album sucks, it looks pretty and I supported an artist I believe in for a small amount of money. In this case, nearly two grand for a promise of a product that hasn't been seen by the public yet? No. The plugins are great. If it sounds like them, I'll be happy with it assuming it doesn't break from shoddy build quality. I'll wait till the kinks get worked out.


----------



## diagrammatiks

it's also funny because they are giving away things that don't even exist yet.

get it. that's the joke.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> it's also funny because they are giving away things that don't even exist yet.
> 
> get it. that's the joke.



For real. Who was the galaxy brain behind this? 

Best part, if you've already pre-ordered one, and win, you get placed to the back of the line. Wat.


----------



## Randy

Thaeon said:


> I get it. They are not the only company that does this. There are plenty reputable companies that do. Making the assumption that it sucks before it seeing mass market is getting a little ahead of things. This is also why I almost never preorder anything other that albums from bands I like. At least if the album sucks, it looks pretty and I supported an artist I believe in for a small amount of money. In this case, nearly two grand for a promise of a product that hasn't been seen by the public yet? No. The plugins are great. If it sounds like them, I'll be happy with it assuming it doesn't break from shoddy build quality. I'll wait till the kinks get worked out.



The "it sucks" thing is hyperbole, although it might actually happen since we don't actually have any in the wild to say. Look at the Headrush. Also, the clips they've posted have all kinda sucked. So I'm not judging it based on pics or bias, I'm going off of what my ears have been able to hear. FWIW. 

I agree, their plugins are great. I also think the price is very good for potentially the brain of an Axe3 with wireless programming and Kemper-like amp capturing. So I want to see this workout. Still, it's not like modelers are a new thing, so we have several other companies to judge this off of, both in finished product and their sales/marketing/release schedule, and so far that end of it has been the worst.

I very well might buy one of these at some point if it's not garbage or if it actually ships.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Just took my name off the waitlist.

HX stomp might not be as good, but its 1/3rd the price, smaller and most importantly, available now.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Ataraxia2320 said:


> might not be as good, but its 1/3rd the price, smaller and most importantly, available now.



Sounds like my second marriage.


----------



## Randy

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Just took my name off the waitlist.
> 
> HX stomp might not be as good, but its 1/3rd the price, smaller and most importantly, available now.



The expansion to 8 blocks is pretty significant also.


----------



## Kaura

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Just took my name off the waitlist.
> 
> HX stomp might not be as good, but its 1/3rd the price, smaller and most importantly, available now.



Good, maybe they'll give away more of them.


----------



## Mr_Marty

Randy said:


> TI also think the price is very good for potentially the brain of an Axe3


It doesn't have anywhere near the power of an Axe3. That's their shady marketing at work again.


----------



## MetalDaze

They might be able to retain more preorders if they reveal the mystery first batch perk.

I was hoping for a free plugin, but I expect I'll get a piece of paper certifying a low serial number


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MetalDaze said:


> They might be able to retain more preorders if they reveal the mystery first batch perk.
> 
> I was hoping for a free plugin, but I expect I'll get a piece of paper certifying a low serial number


----------



## Mathemagician

MetalDaze said:


> They might be able to retain more preorders if they reveal the mystery first batch perk.
> 
> I was hoping for a free plugin, but I expect I'll get a piece of paper certifying a low serial number



They know exactly what people who preorder want: Validation. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>



The number of people I know who got way to hyped when they saw that text is nuts. Buuuuuut, people like what they like.


----------



## ElRay

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm also giving away 10 copies of my phd dissertation.
> 
> finish date tbd. but it will blow your mind.


Why tolerate being on a waiting list? You never know if/when that PhD will be complete. I'll send you TWO copies of my Master's Thesis w/in 24-hours, for one low price!


----------



## Drunkbag

Rabea has released a new song using the QC for guitars:


----------



## Randy

I hate being the like, token guy to shit on this thing but my confidence is still no better than it was.


----------



## rexbinary

Yeah it went from love to hate in here and it's not even out yet.


----------



## Mathemagician

Randy said:


> I hate being the like, token guy to shit on this thing but my confidence is still no better than it was.



Debating my preorder myself at the moment. See, man this is why I never preorder anything lol.


----------



## Emperoff

Drunkbag said:


> Rabea has released a new song using the QC for guitars:




Did you guys read this comment? It could be completely false, buuut...

"Zachary GerhardsteinHace 14 horas
@Dannon Evans Sweetwater's first batch is supposed to be in on December 4th. Sweetwater is in my home town, and I know a lot of people who work there. They already have some, but cannot release them until Neural allows them to".


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Randy said:


> I hate being the like, token guy to shit on this thing but my confidence is still no better than it was.



The bass tone is fucking massive at least.

That guitar tone is absolutely paper though. 2D, thin, lifeless. Jeez. For something that's supposed to be the next step in modeling gear (  ), it sure as hell sounded like an early '90s Sansamp.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeh, preorder cancelled. I’ll wait until those more skilled than me at this show off what it can really do. Gonna just be patient. Because every FM3 clip I hear sounds awesome. But a decade+ of user experience does add a lot.


----------



## Emperoff

Mathemagician said:


> Yeh, preorder cancelled. I’ll wait until those more skilled than me at this show off what it can really do. Gonna just be patient. Because every FM3 clip I hear sounds awesome. But a decade+ of user experience does add a lot.



This. Neural DSP Modelling is already out there in VST format and we already know it's not better than Fractal modelling, so I don't see the point of it.

And yes, the FM3 sounds amazing in absolutely every clip I hear. Which is why I'm already on the waitlist.


----------



## budda

Join us.


----------



## Mathemagician

Is that one emoji, or is this like emoji-acsii art? (Spelling)


----------



## Korneo

I've stopped waiting for the Quad for quite a while now and all the recents videos made me happy that my FM3 is coming monday or tuedsay.

I think we are at least a year before the Quad will be a thing.


----------



## Mathemagician

Korneo said:


> I've stopped waiting for the Quad for quite a while now and all the recents videos made me happy that my FM3 is coming monday or tuedsay.
> 
> I think we are at least a year before the Quad will be a thing.



I called Sweetwater and I was told they actually came in today/yesterday but aren’t being sent out until they get the go-ahead from the Neural guys. Should happen next week or so.


----------



## maccayoung

Interesting. Neural stated that they'd get the units out to the pre-order customers before the retailers. I guess getting them to wait is their way around it.


----------



## Emperoff

Mathemagician said:


> Is that one emoji, or is this like emoji-acsii art? (Spelling)



:minions : emoticon.


----------



## Kaura

Rabea's clip sounds good to me.


----------



## budda

Kaura said:


> Rabea's clip sounds good to me.



I think the thing is that at this point, it needs to sound great.


----------



## Kaura

budda said:


> I think the thing is that at this point, it needs to sound great.



How do you figure that? Sure, they've gone through a couple of delays but it's not like getting a Fractal unit has ever been easy, let alone a fast process.

In the end, all we've still seen at this point is a couple of Youtube videos. Just chill down and wait for actual user reviews. Or just go and throw more money at your precious Fractal.


----------



## budda

Kaura said:


> How do you figure that? Sure, they've gone through a couple of delays but it's not like getting a Fractal unit has ever been easy, let alone a fast process.
> 
> In the end, all we've still seen at this point is a couple of Youtube videos. Just chill down and wait for actual user reviews. Or just go and throw more money at your precious Fractal.



 Did I strike a nerve?

All you've seen is a couple youtube videos - enough to push people to the competition. I don't care about this product, or user reviews, because I'm not the target customer. This thread is something I read to pass the time.

How exactly would I throw money at my "precious fractal" short of physically doing so? I'm not buying an FC, I didn't buy the unit new, and I don't plan to jump to a mk2 unless Cliff releases something I decide I desperately need. Good try though .

You enjoy waiting for things to happen and I'll enjoy my free frequent updates to both the hardware and editing software .


----------



## Kaura

budda said:


> Did I strike a nerve?
> 
> All you've seen is a couple youtube videos - enough to push people to the competition. I don't care about this product, or user reviews, because I'm not the target customer. This thread is something I read to pass the time.
> 
> How exactly would I throw money at my "precious fractal" short of physically doing so? I'm not buying an FC, I didn't buy the unit new, and I don't plan to jump to a mk2 unless Cliff releases something I decide I desperately need. Good try though .
> 
> You enjoy waiting for things to happen and I'll enjoy my free frequent updates to both the hardware and editing software .



So basically you're just trolling around? Well, good job. You got me. I don't have any money involved in this product nor plan to (at least any time soon). Just sick of this "monopoly" mentality. Fractal may have a strong foothold in the industry but cut some fucking slack for the new guy. Feels you like you guys just want these guys to crash and burn for the slight chance that this product might actually be the next best thing and you end up feeling worthless with your Fractals. Just sayin...


----------



## budda

Kaura said:


> So basically you're just trolling around? Well, good job. You got me. I don't have any money involved in this product nor plan to (at least any time soon). Just sick of this "monopoly" mentality. Fractal may have a strong foothold in the industry but cut some fucking slack for the new guy. Feels you like you guys just want these guys to crash and burn for the slight chance that this product might actually be the next best thing and you end up feeling worthless with your Fractals. Just sayin...



They won't crash and burn, because they already sell a very popular series of VST's. They are rightly seeing if they can expand their market share with a physical product. It may or may not work. 

My gear does not determine how I feel about myself, despite the fact I'm part of a few forums. I'm not hung up on gear at all. That's why I sold two tube rigs and a pedalboard and went digital .


----------



## Kaura

budda said:


> They won't crash and burn, because they already sell a very popular series of VST's. They are rightly seeing if they can expand their market share with a physical product. It may or may not work.



That's what I'm hoping. I just wanted to see a story of a great product. But it's starting to look like the No Man's Sky of guitar processors. Or the Abasi Guitars of guitar processors. Hopefully they can redeem themselves like the other two.


----------



## budda

I'd rather see Tosin succeed, because I can't think of another Black-owned guitar company. I can't name any pedal companies either. That's a whole different discussion.


----------



## Elric

Kaura said:


> That's what I'm hoping. I just wanted to see a story of a great product. But it's starting to look like the No Man's Sky of guitar processors. Or the Abasi Guitars of guitar processors. Hopefully they can redeem themselves like the other two.


FWIW:
For some reason SSO in particular seems to have turned on Neural, going from hopeful excitement to “screw these guys, LOL” in terms of collective vibe.

Which is kind of weird because their plugins rock for Metal, so you know this thing is going to be pretty great right out of the gate, I would expect. Seems like a great starting point to me. I’m getting one even though i have an Axe III. I’m lucky enough to have enough expendable cash to buy based on potential and keep the proven unit too... Shrug.

Internet forum psychology is pretty weird/crazy sometimes, IMHO.


----------



## Kaura

budda said:


> That's a whole different discussion.



Indeed, a discussion I'm not ready to jump into...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

lol there's one or two people in here shit talking the QC. It's not like the whole forum is ganging up against it.
I for one am indifferent towards the QC. The only thing that interests me is how well it profiles actual amps, which we won't have a truly good idea of until paying customers get their hands on it.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Also for all the good modeling they do on PC, all the QC clips *have* sounded pretty bad. Like, if you think it sounds good, that's cool. But to me, it doesn't sound much better than my stock POD Go.


----------



## Mathemagician

Kaura said:


> How do you figure that? Sure, they've gone through a couple of delays but it's not like getting a Fractal unit has ever been easy, let alone a fast process.
> 
> In the end, all we've still seen at this point is a couple of Youtube videos. Just chill down and wait for actual user reviews. Or just go and throw more money at your precious Fractal.



For my $0.02 I just wasn’t impressed with Rabea’s clip all that much. And I had just been watching him using synergy gear/other gear. So I know he’s a great player AND can get a good sound. 

I really hope it’s awesome and improves more with updates. But I’m just not in a rush to be an early adopter when I have comparable or better gear - a Kemper in my case. 

I’m REALLY hunting for 5150 examples once this thing goes live.


----------



## Emperoff

Kaura said:


> Rabea's clip sounds good to me.



Really? I thought it was the worst tone Rabea has put in years.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> I think the thing is that at this point, it needs to sound great.


All it needs to do is to sound on par with the current top tier units: FM3/Axe-Fx 3, Helix and Kemper. I have no doubts that it will. NeuralDSP plugins are not my favorite but they sound very good. Personally I don’t even care which modeler is the most accurate but which one can deliver tones that sound and feel good while being easy to operate. Right now for me the unit is Helix but I hope QC will take that crown.

Anyone expecting this to be the second coming of digital modeling Christ is fooling themselves. There is no way they will suddenly surpass over a decade of work from Fractal for example.

The main draw of the unit is that it has a touchscreen interface that should make it very quick to operate right from the device whether you are tweaking things in the studio or doing some quick adjustments on stage. It will also be compact.


----------



## StevenC

budda said:


> I'd rather see Tosin succeed, because I can't think of another Black-owned guitar company. I can't name any pedal companies either. That's a whole different discussion.


Uhhh, Blackmachine!


----------



## budda

@laxu no argument here. But your first impressions should be helix/axe fx tier and it seems like these arent.

I could still be running an amp from 1983 and I would still just be pointing out what people here are saying.


----------



## budda

StevenC said:


> Uhhh, Blackmachine!



1. Good, but
2. Hasnt he been done for a while?

A list of 2 sadly doesnt make me feel any better.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I wonder if some see my cancellation as shitting on Neural. It’s definitely not from my perspective. I’m just plenty happy with not only my FM3 but also with my tube amps and my Neural plugins. Additionally, there’s still no word on how well suited it’ll be for running into an amp FX loop. 

When you add it all up, I just don’t feel the need to shell out the extra funds at this time. If I start hearing stuff that wows me, I’ll grab one through Sweetwater or something.


----------



## StevenC

budda said:


> 1. Good, but
> 2. Hasnt he been done for a while?
> 
> A list of 2 sadly doesnt make me feel any better.


I also found Dogman Devices, this is depressing. If we open it up to POCs, there's the whole Japanese guitar industry; Schecter is owned by ESP...

Doug still makes guitars about as frequently as he ever did.


----------



## budda

StevenC said:


> I also found Dogman Devices, this is depressing. If we open it up to POCs, there's the whole Japanese guitar industry; Schecter is owned by ESP...
> 
> Doug still makes guitars about as frequently as he ever did.



I appreciate the info. We've had the Asian marketing sector for about as long as we've had fender guitars and basses, but we can name 2 black-owned guitar companies (one small shop one semi-small shop). I'd love to see it expand a lot.

I'd also be interested in the qc not being headrush tier product. Why? Because that makes the competition more fierce. Either way, Im not buying one. I dented a bigsky, I do not care for touchscreen floor-based anything


----------



## Mathemagician

On topic of Neural I have been debating the Nolly sim set. Thoughts/feelings on how it sounds vs. what it’s emulating? And yes I’ve YouTube’d, just looking for first hand thoughts.


----------



## broangiel

Mathemagician said:


> On topic of Neural I have been debating the Nolly sim set. Thoughts/feelings on how it sounds vs. what it’s emulating? And yes I’ve YouTube’d, just looking for first hand thoughts.


I bounce back and forth between Plini being my favorite and Nolly being my favorite. I like both, but if I had to pick one, I’d pick Nolly. Nolly simply has more everything: amps, cabs, effects. I wouldn’t worry too much about how it compares to the amps that are emulated, because apparently Nolly has modified his own amps. Thus, the sims are already based on modified versions of amps and will differ from what a “normal” version would sound like.


----------



## narad

broangiel said:


> I wouldn’t worry too much about how it compares to the amps that are emulated, because apparently Nolly has modified his own amps. Thus, the sims are already based on modified versions of amps and will differ from what a “normal” version would sound like.



I have to give it to them, that's genius. Fractal should have just said from the start that all its amp sims were based on modified amps, so don't go trying any A/B comparisons.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> I have to give it to them, that's genius. Fractal should have just said from the start that all its amp sims were based on modified amps, so don't go trying any A/B comparisons.



Line 6 sort of said that from beginning, that the amp models might not sound exactly like your 2204, but they sound like our (their) 2204. 

Which, to be fair, there's some honesty there, as amp revisions, repairs, component variances, tube life, bias, power, etc. all shape what an amp sounds like, they don't necessarily exist in bubbles.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> Line 6 sort of said that from beginning, that the amp models might not sound exactly like your 2204, but they sound like our (their) 2204.
> 
> Which, to be fair, there's some honesty there, as amp revisions, repairs, component variances, tube life, bias, power, etc. all shape what an amp sounds like, they don't necessarily exist in bubbles.



Yea, I get there's some truth in that. But there's also some truth in that Line6 was never close enough to modeling an amp that the differences are down to the natural variation between component values and tubes


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Yea, I get there's some truth in that. But there's also some truth in that Line6 was never close enough to modeling an amp that the differences are down to the natural variation between component values and tubes



I would say that the Helix gets that stupid close, and the HD maybe a smidge less depending.


----------



## laxu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I would say that the Helix gets that stupid close, and the HD maybe a smidge less depending.


I’d say so too. If I try to run even just the preamps into my Bogner they don’t sound much different from the amp’s own Fender and Marshall based preamps.

Honestly I wish the modeling stuff already moved on from trying to replicate classic amps to do their own thing. There’s room for digital modeling that does not sound like a digital replica. But that’s what sells so it keeps happening.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> I’d say so too. If I try to run even just the preamps into my Bogner they don’t sound much different from the amp’s own Fender and Marshall based preamps.
> 
> Honestly I wish the modeling stuff already moved on from trying to replicate classic amps to do their own thing. There’s room for digital modeling that does not sound like a digital replica. But that’s what sells so it keeps happening.



Line 6 and fractal have their own amp models so Im not 100% sure what the complaint is.


----------



## Jon Pearson

laxu said:


> I’d say so too. If I try to run even just the preamps into my Bogner they don’t sound much different from the amp’s own Fender and Marshall based preamps.
> 
> Honestly I wish the modeling stuff already moved on from trying to replicate classic amps to do their own thing. There’s room for digital modeling that does not sound like a digital replica. But that’s what sells so it keeps happening.



I mean Line 6 and Fractal each have started down this path. They have their own models that are original creations or at least they are tweaks of existing models. I'm excited to see more of that even so, but in the case of Fractal there are quite a few models that are not dirextly trying to be anything.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mathemagician said:


> On topic of Neural I have been debating the Nolly sim set. Thoughts/feelings on how it sounds vs. what it’s emulating? And yes I’ve YouTube’d, just looking for first hand thoughts.




Short answer: generally speaking, I _think_ the amps sound somewhat accurate. Regardless, they do sound very good.

Far more accurate answer: It’s really a tough question to answer with these plugins. Reason being, it’s not often people are going to run their real amps through a DI and then through the plugin’s cab/mic setup for a more valid comparison. I suppose you could also disable the cab in the Neural, pull a signal out of your interface, and run that into a real amp FX loop but that would be less accurate (NDSP preamp > NDSP power amp > real power amp > real cab). 

I will say this though. I have run the FM3 through my amp FX loop. The FM3 had power amp disabled (0.0 sag) or on at minimum (0.1 sag) and I thought it was VERY accurate in terms of both sound and feel.

A different day, I ran some NDSP stuff through my computer setup and it sounded amd felt really good. Then I ran my FM3 through the computer and definitely preferred the FM3 in both sound and feel. I wasn’t trying to be scientific so I didn’t normalize cabs/mics—I just used what was stock in the presets.

Again, I’ll stress that the NDSP stuff sounded and felt really good on its own. I only noticed a difference because I used one right after the other. And who knows. I suppose it’s possible (unlikely though) I could have the opposite feeling if I a/b’d them today.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Agree with @budda and @Jon Pearson. And the Fractal models I’ve tried are pretty awesome.


----------



## SamSam

I have to say as the weeks pass, I am getting closer to cancelling as well. 

I'm happy with the FM3 and neural plugins and the idea of putting that QC money towards an Aristides deposit is getting more tempting by the day...


----------



## Emperoff

Showing up in Thomann (2-3 weeks delivery time):
https://www.thomann.de/es/neural_dsp_quad_cortex.htm

Although I'm certainly leaning towards the Axe FM3, Neural DSP being an european company evens out the prices for sure. I doubt I get my FM3 invite before this comes out anyway so let's see how it goes.


----------



## Elric

FWIW, I’m expecting the modeling to be around Helix quality from the start... I consider Fractal to be best in class but if they can hit the bar around where the plugins are (which I like a bit better than Helix (long time Stomp and Native owner)) they will have a winner with all the other features, etc, I think...

The profiling should be super intriguing... I have never owned a profiler... always wanted a model of the signal chain like FAS, L6, etc... But having both seems really cool.

If I feel like it wasn’t cutting it after a firmware update or two, I’ll probably flip it for an FM3 or Helix... but honestly, I’m expecting a winner over the long term. Neural seems to have their sh*t together for the most part, IMHO.


----------



## Emperoff

Honestly, I've been giving this device a lot of thought trying to figure out where it sits...

- The price is higher than any other floorboard while not sounding better.
- The rotary swithces aren't necessary at all for a floorboard, but much more likely to break (and good luck getting them fixed them).
- To me it makes much more sense as a desktop studio solution, with easy to access settings due to the rotary controls and touch screen, but then... Wouldn't it be easier to edit it on the computer? Also no navigation buttons to change presets "by hand" unlike Axe Fm3 (although maybe it can be done on the screen)..
- Why would anyone pay more than the Axe FM3 for a studio solution for a product that doesn't sound any better?

So I'm a bit confused about which target Neural DSP is trying to hit. Only real positives I see of the products are its design. There's a truckload of switches in a 29cm unit while only weighing 1.6K, but I doubt that is worth 1600€. This could have been a great competitor for the Fractal AX8 a couple years ago, but then again it's not on par neither in price nor in sound. I mean the Helix LT is literally half the price...


----------



## Metropolis

Emperoff said:


> Honestly, I've been giving this device a lot of thought trying to figure out where it sits...
> 
> - The price is higher than any other floorboard while not sounding better.
> - The rotary swithces aren't necessary at all for a floorboard, but much more likely to break (and good luck getting them fixed them).
> - To me it makes much more sense as a desktop studio solution, with easy to access settings due to the rotary controls and touch screen, but then... Wouldn't it be easier to edit it on the computer? Also no navigation buttons to change presets "by hand" unlike Axe Fm3 (although maybe it can be done on the screen)..
> - Why would anyone pay more than the Axe FM3 for a studio solution for a product that doesn't sound any better?
> 
> So I'm a bit confused about which target Neural DSP is trying to hit. Only real positives I see of the products are its design. There's a truckload of switches in a 29cm unit while only weighing 1.6K, but I doubt that is worth 1600€. This could have been a great competitor for the Fractal AX8 a couple years ago, but then again it's not on par neither in price nor in sound. I mean the Helix LT is literally half the price...



To me it doesn't have to even sound that spectacular to sound better than Helix, because their plugins already do.

As a unit it seems allround kind of thing, and build quality also seems rock solid.

Full Helix Floorboard is currently 1499€ and LT version is 999€. Same price range with Helix, and in EU Fractal prices are forever ridiculous. AX8 was around 1400€. With profiling Quad Cortex raises above those in value. And it's being assembled here in Finland and not some chinese factory.


----------



## narad

Metropolis said:


> And it's being assembled here in Finland and not some chinese factory.



Thank god for that. I hate the thought of Chinese people getting my money!


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> Honestly, I've been giving this device a lot of thought trying to figure out where it sits...
> 
> - The price is higher than any other floorboard while not sounding better.
> - The rotary swithces aren't necessary at all for a floorboard, but much more likely to break (and good luck getting them fixed them).
> - To me it makes much more sense as a desktop studio solution, with easy to access settings due to the rotary controls and touch screen, but then... Wouldn't it be easier to edit it on the computer? Also no navigation buttons to change presets "by hand" unlike Axe Fm3 (although maybe it can be done on the screen)..
> - Why would anyone pay more than the Axe FM3 for a studio solution for a product that doesn't sound any better?
> 
> So I'm a bit confused about which target Neural DSP is trying to hit. Only real positives I see of the products are its design. There's a truckload of switches in a 29cm unit while only weighing 1.6K, but I doubt that is worth 1600€. This could have been a great competitor for the Fractal AX8 a couple years ago, but then again it's not on par neither in price nor in sound. I mean the Helix LT is literally half the price...



- Price in Europe is similar to the Line6 Helix Floor or Kemper Stage. Fractal FM3 is cheaper but it cannot do things like multiple amp blocks and most likely not as many fx at the same time. FM3 is also unobtainium unless you join a waiting list. Helix LT is cheaper than FM3 and can have more complex fx chains as it mostly just ditches the more expensive metal casing and the more esoteric I/O to make it cheaper than the Helix Floor.
- Rotary switches are a solution to virtual knobs being kind of bad to turn on a touchscreen or computer screen and a non-trivial UI challenge. If you have ever operated a VST plugin with a mouse, you have things like "do I turn these virtual knobs by dragging my mouse/finger in a semi-circle, up/down or left/right etc". I think they are an elegant solution to avoiding adding a bunch of knobs on a compact device. Having you grabbing the same things you just stomped with your foot is a bit gross tho!
- To me touchscreen and the knobs are a far better solution. I really dislike having to hold my pick in weird ways to use a mouse to control software. It's much easier to edit things by being able to grab a knob and turn. MIDI mapping on most VST amp sim plugins and editor software is plain awful and a huge chore to set up. Desktop studio solution is actually exactly what I plan to use the QC for.
- FM3 has a bunch of limitations. You can read what they are compared to the Axe-Fx 3 here. Compared to the other floorboard modelers, the big ones are no dual amp blocks and less simultaneous fx as well as the very limited switching. I don't know what the Kemper Stage can handle but the Helix Floor lets you build very complex signal chains. If you don't have a need for these things then FM3 is fine and it does have the channels feature that adds versatility. For me the FM3 switching is the worst part. The Fractal FC footcontrollers are incredibly overpriced and a 3rd party MIDI controller is not going to be able to do all the same things. If they had crammed in one or two more switches in a staggered configuration then I would have no complaints from that area. Trying to make it work using long presses and different modes is just awkward compared to pushing the right switch directly.

I used the Axe-Fx 2 for years and it lived 99% connected to Axe-Edit because the hardware UI was so crap. By comparison my Helix Floor is connected to the computer only for IR and firmware updates because it's easy to use right from the device itself. One of my favorite features of the Helix is also the capacitive footswitches that let you very quickly move between which block you are editing. QC looks to make that even easier with the touchscreen and more rotaries. While FM3/Axe-Fx 3 are better than their predecessors in the UI department, I can't call them great. They are the kind you can learn to live with. If Fractal took more cues from Axe-Edit on how the hardware UI should operate it would be better. Now you are constantly jumping between different views.

Another thing that QC does better than the competition is the cab block. Having used the ML Sound Lab MIKKO plugin for quite a while, it makes mixing your own IRs so much easier. The Fractal/Helix "select from these massive lists" method is just archaic by comparison. Being able to move virtual mics around with your finger makes the process much more intuitive and fun while also taking less time to find a sound you like.

QC also looks to be able to switch between several full signal chains in a preset so you could setup your ideal overdrive path and clean path or maybe rhythm vs lead. Doing this on other modelers is more complicated and requires you to lock yourself into having certain blocks in the chain and toggling those on/off or changing their settings rather than having separate fx chains.

The QC appeal to me is that it's kind of a "best of" device. If it will have similar quality modeling as the competition then it will sound very good while working with the device itself will be easier. It will also take much less space so it's more portable. My Helix Floor is an unnecessarily big mofo while the HX Stomp is too limited. Line6 should replace the Helix LT with a Helix Mini instead.


----------



## Metropolis

narad said:


> Thank god for that. I hate the thought of Chinese people getting my money!



Labor and manufacturing is more expensive in here, everything is made in China nowadays anyway. It explains the price gap a little bit.


----------



## laxu

Metropolis said:


> Labor and manufacturing is more expensive in here, everything is made in China nowadays anyway. It explains the price gap a little bit.



Not to mention the Darkglass factory where I assume the QC is assembled is in the middle of Helsinki rather than in the boonies so it's even more expensive. I would not be surprised if they move the production to China eventually if the product becomes very popular.


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> . The Fractal FC footcontrollers are incredibly overpriced



Most of your points entirely fair but I disagree with this one. $499 for the FC6 is very reasonable, especially with the LCD labels (which QC doesn't have btw) and one cable connectivity to the FM3. 

FM3 is basically bare minimum buttons to limit size and price for people that use it connected to PC or for a fly rig, but FM3+FC6 was likely intended to be the real AX8 replacement, and it still comes in under $1500.

Also, Neural firmware update history is completely speculation at this point. They do make quality plugins and hardware but nobody on this earth can speak to their firmware history because it doesn't exist yet. I'd hope the unit ships with something better than beta and leaning on aggressive updates to fix it, if that was supposedly the majority of the holdup. Will they still be pushing users firmware with substantive feature updates 5+ years after they have already bought it and will they be free like the Helix? Pure speculation.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Most of your points entirely fair but I disagree with this one. $499 for the FC6 is very reasonable, especially with the LCD labels (which QC doesn't have btw) and one cable connectivity to the FM3.
> 
> FM3 is basically bare minimum buttons to limit size and price for people that use it connected to PC or for a fly rig, but FM3+FC6 was likely intended to be the real AX8 replacement, and it still comes in under $1500.
> 
> Also, Neural firmware update history is completely speculation at this point. They do make quality plugins and hardware but nobody on this earth can speak to their firmware history because it doesn't exist yet. I'd hope the unit ships with something better than beta and leaning on aggressive updates to fix it, if that was supposedly the majority of the holdup. Will they still be pushing users firmware with substantive feature updates 5+ years after they have already bought it and will they be free like the Helix? Pure speculation.



The Line6 Helix Control is $449 and is the equivalent of the FC12. I can't find any reason why the FC6 is $50 and the FC12 is $250 more. Granted, Line6/Yamaha is a far larger company so volume discounts and supply chains will help here but still the FC controllers are pricy. Here in Europe I can buy a Line6 Helix LT for only a little bit more than the FC12.

To me the FM3 seems built to sell the FC6 to go with it. But the FM3 has room for more buttons unless under the panel the hardware is excessively large which would explain the wide button placement.

QC takes a similar approach to the Helix LT where instead of label screens it shows them on the LCD. I'd say this works well enough as LCD screens for controls would probably require the device to be larger. QC's screen is bigger than the ones on the Fractal or Helix so they are visible just fine. The color coded LEDs on the switches could be better though, I like the ones on the Helix that are around the switch.


----------



## Emperoff

There is also something few people have considered.

I zoomed the image until it matched exactly it's measurements and the footswitches are *awfully close* between them. They're actually closer than the switches on my AMT SS1. I'm sure someone will come with the "bigfoot" joke, but I'm sure as hell I don't want to step on other presets live by accident.

The more I look at it, the less practical I find it for live use.



laxu said:


> (stuff)



I'm aware of FM3 limitations. Not everybody gives a damn about dual amp setups, though. Even less so for the studio.

UI becomes moot if you use it on the studio, since a dedicated editor will always be better and faster.

Those QC switches are pretty tall and I can tell they'll be a pain in the ass getting in the way while operating the touchscreen. You can sorta tell in Rabea's video.

Also, you complain about FM3 switching, but there's so much you can do with 3 buttons (that double as six in the basic settings which is already more than most people need). QC challenges that with 10 switches crammed into 30 cm. Awfully close as I said, and uncomfortable to operate.

Shoegazers that need that many switches can really get away with alternative switching like press and hold, etc. Since it's clear they don't move for shit onstage anyway. I gig wireless and move around quite a lot, so I can't be bothered with hitting the wrong switch the few times per song I do it.

So yeah, its best appeal to me is still its size to weight ratio for portability on club gigs. It would be a very solid unit at the 999$ the Fractal FM3 sells. I don't think it will steal Line6 or Fractal userbase lying in a middle-ground, since they both cover the low cost and high end segments already.


----------



## broangiel

Since we’re talking about the target market, I’ll add another angle (my own). I have wanted a Kemper for years to complement my Axe Fx. Kemper, unfortunately, has too many limitations (no USB audio, rigid signal chains, no editor until very recently, only one profile at a time, etc), and has shown no desire to update their product. I see the QC as Kemper successor in some ways as much as I see it as a new competitor to Fractal and Line 6. Of the profiling capability is convincing enough, my Kemper lust will have sufficiently been squashed.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> There is also something few people have considered.
> 
> I zoomed the image until it matched exactly it's measurements and the footswitches are *awfully close* between them. They're actually closer than the switches on my AMT SS1. I'm sure someone will come with the "bigfoot" joke, but I'm sure as hell I don't want to step on other presets live by accident.
> 
> The more I look at it, the less practical I find it for live use.
> 
> I'm aware of FM3 limitations. Not everybody gives a damn about dual amp setups, though. Even less so for the studio.
> 
> UI becomes moot if you use it on the studio, since a dedicated editor will always be better and faster.
> 
> Those QC switches are pretty tall and I can tell they'll be a pain in the ass getting in the way while operating the touchscreen. You can sorta tell in Rabea's video.
> 
> Also, you complain about FM3 switching, but there's so much you can do with 3 buttons (that double as six in the basic settings which is already more than most people need). QC challenges that with 10 switches crammed into 30 cm. Awfully close as I said, and uncomfortable to operate.
> 
> Shoegazers that need that many switches can really get away with alternative switching like press and hold, etc. Since it's clear they don't move for shit onstage anyway. I gig wireless and move around quite a lot, so I can't be bothered with hitting the wrong switch the few times per song I do it.
> 
> So yeah, its best appeal to me is still its size to weight ratio for portability on club gigs. It would be a very solid unit at the 999$ the Fractal FM3 sells. I don't think it will steal Line6 or Fractal userbase lying in a middle-ground, since they both cover the low cost and high end segments already.



Switching remains to be seen. I agree that it does look a bit tight but we will see how it does in practice. They have probably gone for a lot of switch/knobs so you have enough controls to quickly tweak things.

To me needing to use an editor software is always a minus. I prefer not being tethered to a computer. I have built all my patches on the Helix Floor using just the device itself and felt it was nice to do. Total opposite of how I worked with Axe-Fx 2 where the editor is essential for a good user experience. I think the touchscreen and knobs remove the need for editor software. Good thing too since it's not launching at release!

If you don't need dual amps etc then the FM3's processing limitations are fine. But it still needs to be taken into account when you compare it to the competition that may let you do more. QC is also basically a combination of a Kemper and other modelers thanks to its profiling features. Personally I don't want the Kemper because it's only profiling but will most likely use the profiling feature with my few tube amps on the QC just to try it out. Might even be enough to make me sell my attenuator which I mostly use for its line-out.

FM3 has a lot of navigation functionality to make up for its lack of switches. Adding just one or two more switches would have expanded that functionality a lot. I just can't see myself trying to remember which hold action I needed to do if playing it live. Just much easier to have dedicated switches, even if they are a bit cramped. Like Helix, QC also lets you split how they are used whether it's toggling fx + scenes or presets + scenes or presets + fx.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> Switching remains to be seen. I agree that it does look a bit tight but we will see how it does in practice. They have probably gone for a lot of switch/knobs so you have enough controls to quickly tweak things.
> 
> To me needing to use an editor software is always a minus. I prefer not being tethered to a computer. I have built all my patches on the Helix Floor using just the device itself and felt it was nice to do. Total opposite of how I worked with Axe-Fx 2 where the editor is essential for a good user experience. I think the touchscreen and knobs remove the need for editor software. Good thing too since it's not launching at release!
> 
> If you don't need dual amps etc then the FM3's processing limitations are fine. But it still needs to be taken into account when you compare it to the competition that may let you do more. QC is also basically a combination of a Kemper and other modelers thanks to its profiling features. Personally I don't want the Kemper because it's only profiling but will most likely use the profiling feature with my few tube amps on the QC just to try it out. Might even be enough to make me sell my attenuator which I mostly use for its line-out.
> 
> FM3 has a lot of navigation functionality to make up for its lack of switches. Adding just one or two more switches would have expanded that functionality a lot. I just can't see myself trying to remember which hold action I needed to do if playing it live. Just much easier to have dedicated switches, even if they are a bit cramped. Like Helix, QC also lets you split how they are used whether it's toggling fx + scenes or presets + scenes or presets + fx.



All I'll say is that people are being too quick (and optimistic) to compare this to a Kemper. We've already had quite a few units doing "tone capture", "profiling" or whatever they want to call it. All of them failed miserably. Why should this one be any better? I wouldn't throw my money at them hoping for a Kemper killer, *specially *considering their hyperbolic marketing. Not until proper real-world comparisons are given. On the other hand, their amp simulation *can be judged, *as it's already out there (and inferior to the competition).

And last but not least, Fractal and Line6 are doing a great job keeping the units alive. These guys are new in the field, and I've already heard plenty of complaints by their VST users about the lack of updates, and releasing more plugins instead (common practice along non-suite ampsim developers). 

I know people loves being dragged by the hype, but virtually no demos at 2 weeks launch doesn't look like a good sign. Only thing they're doing is saying "We're the bestest!".


----------



## Thaeon

Mathemagician said:


> For my $0.02 I just wasn’t impressed with Rabea’s clip all that much. And I had just been watching him using synergy gear/other gear. So I know he’s a great player AND can get a good sound.
> 
> I really hope it’s awesome and improves more with updates. But I’m just not in a rush to be an early adopter when I have comparable or better gear - a Kemper in my case.
> 
> I’m REALLY hunting for 5150 examples once this thing goes live.



How it sounds right off the bat isn't my biggest concern. Its digital. That can be updated. How it feels to play, the quality of the hardware, and the ethics of the company are more important to me. If it sounds competitive, and feels at least as good as the plugins to play, then I'm good with that. I don't care about what amps it models. I have an amp I play live. This would literally be a backup and practice platform for me. Maybe a fly rig if I ever do any of that again.



Emperoff said:


> All I'll say is that people are being too quick (and optimistic) to compare this to a Kemper. We've already had quite a few units doing "tone capture", "profiling" or whatever they want to call it. All of them failed miserably. Why should this one be any better? I wouldn't throw my money at them hoping for a Kemper killer, *specially *considering their hyperbolic marketing. Not until proper real-world comparisons are given. On the other hand, their amp simulation *can be judged, *as it's already out there (and inferior to the competition).
> 
> And last but not least, Fractal and Line6 are doing a great job keeping the units alive. These guys are new in the field, and I've already heard plenty of complaints by their VST users about the lack of updates, and releasing more plugins instead (common practice along non-suite ampsim developers).
> 
> I know people loves being dragged by the hype, but virtually no demos at 2 weeks launch doesn't look like a good sign. Only thing they're doing is saying "We're the bestest!".



I've not played ANY plugins that sound as good, in my opinion as the Neural stuff, and I tend to be even more critical of those than I do modelers.


----------



## budda

Reminder: axe fx has tonematch.

Another reminder: the morningstar mc6 and mc8 exist.

As you were.


----------



## Mathemagician

Thaeon said:


> How it sounds right off the bat isn't my biggest concern. Its digital. That can be updated. How it feels to play, the quality of the hardware, and the ethics of the company are more important to me. If it sounds competitive, and feels at least as good as the plugins to play, then I'm good with that. I don't care about what amps it models. I have an amp I play live. This would literally be a backup and practice platform for me. Maybe a fly rig if I ever do any of that again.
> 
> 
> 
> I've not played ANY plugins that sound as good, in my opinion as the Neural stuff, and I tend to be even more critical of those than I do modelers.



I’m not arguing against any of your points. My whole point was that I didn’t feel a need to be first. Ima just chill and wait to see it in the wild.


----------



## Thaeon

Mathemagician said:


> I’m not arguing against any of your points. My whole point was that I didn’t feel a need to be first. Ima just chill and wait to see it in the wild.



Definite same. I rarely preorder anything.


----------



## Randy

broangiel said:


> Since we’re talking about the target market, I’ll add another angle (my own). I have wanted a Kemper for years to complement my Axe Fx. Kemper, unfortunately, has too many limitations (no USB audio, rigid signal chains, no editor until very recently, only one profile at a time, etc), and has shown no desire to update their product. I see the QC as Kemper successor in some ways as much as I see it as a new competitor to Fractal and Line 6. Of the profiling capability is convincing enough, my Kemper lust will have sufficiently been squashed.



I think much of the same tbh. If these land and they're not trash, I very well might be the next one in line because I'm also eyeballing Kempers.


----------



## SamSam

The FM3 is piss easy to use with 3 switches. To the guy who worries he won't remember which hold functions he's set: You'll be buggered with triple the switches.

Lots of positive stuff on QC, but everyone mentions the big if: will it sound any good? If it doesn't, the thing could offer blowjobs on one its ten switches and will still be worthless.

We just need some good demos at this point.


----------



## MetalDaze

But what if it isn’t a good blowjob 

...and for those who think all blowjobs are good blowjobs, be grateful that you haven’t come across someone that changes that opinion.


----------



## Frostbite

MetalDaze said:


> But what if it isn’t a good blowjob
> 
> ...and for those who think all blowjobs are good blowjobs, be grateful that you haven’t come across someone that changes that opinion.


"How dry do you want it?"


----------



## DropTheSun

Neural DSP sounds the same as Helix or Helix sounds the same as Neural DSP:

https://soundcloud.com/mediumplayer/sets/helix-vs-neural-dsp?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=1

In these comparison clips I changed between the plugins twice. Same IRs of course.

Clip 1: Helix PRS Archon vs Plini High Gain

Clip 2: Helix 5150 vs Nolly 5150

Clip 3: Helix Friedman BE vs Plini Crunch


----------



## spudmunkey

Frostbite said:


> "How dry do you want it?"


[Insert "I understood that reference" GIF here]


----------



## Mr_Marty

DropTheSun said:


> Neural DSP sounds the same as Helix or Helix sounds the same as Neural DSP:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/mediumplayer/sets/helix-vs-neural-dsp?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=1
> 
> In these comparison clips I changed between the plugins twice. Same IRs of course.
> 
> Clip 1: Helix PRS Archon vs Plini High Gain
> 
> Clip 2: Helix 5150 vs Nolly 5150
> 
> Clip 3: Helix Friedman BE vs Plini Crunch


First two sound virtually identical. That's not necessarily a good thing IMO because I find Line6 modeling to be mediocre at best. First half of Clip 3 sounds better but since it's a cleanish tone that's mostly EQ.

All the tones have that flat, fuzzy, distortion quality that I associate with Line6. Not the rich, dynamic sound you get from Fractal or Kemper.

The playing and songwriting are very good though. Just wish the tone were better.


----------



## laxu

Thomann just sent me a mail that says that it will most likely take until early next year before they manage to ship my QC. Not surprising considering even those who preordered it at the start of the year haven't received theirs.

I am in no hurry as I have plenty of gear as is. I just hope we get some video content before that where they truly demonstrate the unit well so I can decide if I want to cancel the QC and wait for the BluGuitar Amp X instead.


----------



## laxu

Mr_Marty said:


> First two sound virtually identical. That's not necessarily a good thing IMO because I find Line6 modeling to be mediocre at best. First half of Clip 3 sounds better but since it's a cleanish tone that's mostly EQ.
> 
> All the tones have that flat, fuzzy, distortion quality that I associate with Line6. Not the rich, dynamic sound you get from Fractal or Kemper.
> 
> The playing and songwriting are very good though. Just wish the tone were better.



I heavily disagree with that as a former Axe-Fx 2 owner. I could get my Helix to match my favorite Axe-Fx patches 99% when used with the same 3rd party IRs. The settings needed were vastly different from the Axe-Fx but the sound and feel was not. The far better UI of the Helix hardware won so I sold my Axe-Fx 2. The stock cab sims on Helix are not great, 3rd party IRs are a much easier way to great tones. Line6 is also apparently making some modeling improvements in 3.1 firmware coming next year, what exactly is still a mystery.

That said I don't love the tones in the clip posted but they do sound very close.

When the same IRs are used I would say that all the top modelers sound so close that choosing purely on sound and feel alone is not that productive. Better to pick based on things like user interface, I/O, size etc needs. If you can't get great tones out of any of them that is entirely on you. My biggest complaint about Fractal is the user interface while my biggest complaints of the Helix Floor are its size, stock cab sims and basic reverbs.


----------



## Mr_Marty

laxu said:


> I heavily disagree with that as a former Axe-Fx 2 owner. I could get my Helix to match my favorite Axe-Fx patches 99% when used with the same 3rd party IRs. The settings needed were vastly different from the Axe-Fx but the sound and feel was not. The far better UI of the Helix hardware won so I sold my Axe-Fx 2. The stock cab sims on Helix are not great, 3rd party IRs are a much easier way to great tones. Line6 is also apparently making some modeling improvements in 3.1 firmware coming next year, what exactly is still a mystery.
> 
> That said I don't love the tones in the clip posted but they do sound very close.
> 
> When the same IRs are used I would say that all the top modelers sound so close that choosing purely on sound and feel alone is not that productive. Better to pick based on things like user interface, I/O, size etc needs. If you can't get great tones out of any of them that is entirely on you. My biggest complaint about Fractal is the user interface while my biggest complaints of the Helix Floor are its size, stock cab sims and basic reverbs.


The Axe-Fx III sounds considerably better than the II (I own the III and had the II). Your conclusion is based on an inherently outdated comparison.


----------



## mikah912

Mr_Marty said:


> All the tones have that flat, fuzzy, distortion quality that I associate with Line6. Not the rich, dynamic sound you get from Fractal or Kemper.



As someone who's owned Helix, Kemper Stage and FM3 in the past 12 months, let me assure you that Fractal and Kemper are not magically "rich and dynamic" across all models. I've played a ton of uninspiring profiles and models on those two machines. 

Conversely, Helix models are of varying quality - with the newer stuff tending to be more "rich and dynamic". The Line 6 people have actually stated they've gotten better at it over the five years it's been out. I very much agree.

So if Quad Cortex comes out the gate at the current Helix modeling quality as their baseline, then combines that with "neural capturing" that's near as good or equal to Kemper and stuffs it all in a floorboard with a crapton of processing power that's smaller than the Helix's aircraft carrier footprint....that's a big win to me.


----------



## Frostbite

mikah912 said:


> As someone who's owned Helix, Kemper Stage and FM3 in the past 12 months, let me assure you that Fractal and Kemper are not magically "rich and dynamic" across all models. I've played a ton of uninspiring profiles and models on those two machines.
> 
> Conversely, Helix models are of varying quality - with the newer stuff tending to be more "rich and dynamic". The Line 6 people have actually stated they've gotten better at it over the five years it's been out. I very much agree.
> 
> So if Quad Cortex comes out the gate at the current Helix modeling quality as their baseline, then combines that with "neural capturing" that's near as good or equal to Kemper and stuffs it all in a floorboard with a crapton of processing power that's smaller than the Helix's aircraft carrier footprint....that's a big win to me.


Badonk/Big Bottom is still the best sound amp in Helix/Pod IMO. The Rev isn't terrible either


----------



## broangiel

Frostbite said:


> Badonk/Big Bottom is still the best sound amp in Helix/Pod IMO. The Rev isn't terrible either


Agreed. I also think the new Diezel models will start getting their fair share of mentions when it comes to "best amps in the Line 6 ecosystem."


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I still like the Mark IV and BE100 in the POD, even though they're slightly older models.


----------



## Deadpool_25

@laxu I bought an FC6 at the same time I bought the FM3 because I was sure three switches would be very limiting. But now that I have them, while the FC6 is cool, the FM3 is incredibly simple to navigate with just the three switches. I honestly don’t think I really need the FC6. Just saying it’s far more usable and intuitive than you think before getting your hands on it.


----------



## laxu

Mr_Marty said:


> The Axe-Fx III sounds considerably better than the II (I own the III and had the II). Your conclusion is based on an inherently outdated comparison.



I haven't tried them side to side but did not hear anything world changing when I got to try an Axe-Fx 3. I fully expect that the 3/FM3 _do_ sound better than the older generations as they certainly should, but I had zero complaints about how the Axe-Fx 2 sounded or felt. We have to remember that those were and still are stellar sounding devices. The biggest reason why I did not jump on the Axe-Fx 3 when it was released was that they did not do enough to improve it on the usability front for me while making it an even more expensive unit when I never managed to use all of the Axe-Fx 2's power.

We are at a point for amp modeling where I can't tell any massive difference running my Helix vs my tube amps through a loadbox into cab sims. The amp modeling in all the top tier modelers as well as top tier VST plugins is at a level where they all sound really, really good and feel satisfying to play.

There's nothing particularly exciting about the amp sim side of the QC. It won't have the level of tweakability of the Fractal units and maybe not even as much as Helix. It won't have anywhere near as many models at first. But I can already tell that the cab sim side will make it child's play to set up the right cab/mic combinations. Most of the real innovation needs to happen on the cab sim side of things. ML Sound Lab MIKKO is a great step in the right direction and so are the NeuralDSP cab sims with movable mics. The sooner the "long list of IRs with every mic position ever" UI dies the better.


----------



## Randy

Concrete date for any of these to hit the street yet?


----------



## mikah912

Randy said:


> Concrete date for any of these to hit the street yet?



Concrete? No. But FLuff just indicated on Instagram that his video wouldn't hit until January, so it's likely they won't ship the earliest preorders until then too.


----------



## MetalDaze

The latest: 

https://neuraldsp.com/blogs/news/quad-cortex-december-development-update 

Given they are making PCB changes it makes it hard to believe there are units sitting at Sweetwater.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

> Finally, we have decided to upgrade a couple of components on our PCBs. While they looked solid on the data sheet, after internal quality assurance processes and beta testers’ feedback, they have not lived up to our reliability standards.



Kinda uh... Lines up with what Keith Merrow was complaining about today on Facebook.  With him saying someone sent him a broken/defective product. Didn't say anyone specifically, but he DID receive a Neural DSP 2 days ago.


----------



## olejason

It feels like this thing was announced way more than 11 months ago. Looks like they may be in the home stretch.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

At least they didn't ship out faulty units to customers. 

The September date was way too ambitious.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Lorcan Ward said:


> At least they didn't ship out faulty units to customers.
> 
> The September date was way too ambitious.



Probably true regardless, but covid has to have hurt too and that was relatively unpredictable.


----------



## Randy

Fun fact: Overly ambitious delivery dates are nobody's fault but their own. You can't blame COVID shipping delays if you're still changing components based on beta tester feedback.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Randy said:


> Fun fact: Overly ambitious delivery dates are nobody's fault but their own. You can't blame COVID shipping delays if you're still changing components based on beta tester feedback.



If COVID moved the time table back to where testers got them later than they should have, then yes you absolutely could blame COVID as a contributing factor. 

I’m not making excuses for them. The odds are they’d have been late anyway. If they were actually delivering in December as opposed to the planned September, I’d say that’s not too bad a delay. But they’re not delivering yet. Could still be months away.


----------



## Randy

I just don't see beta testers, by volume, being effected by covid related shipping slowdowns. How many people do you have beta test a unit like this one and how spread out are they?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Randy said:


> I just don't see beta testers, by volume, being effected by covid related shipping slowdowns. How many people do you have beta test a unit like this one and how spread out are they?



Not the beta testers themselves, but if it caused delays getting those initial units produced and delivered to NDSP, that would mean the testers got them later than they might have otherwise.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah I’m really not holding delays on anyone this year. Everybody is just trying to stay afloat/in business. They’ll make the relevant changes and eventually get them out. I’m sure Black Friday provided another cash infusion too so that’s good. Without Covid they have still missed their target deadlines anyways, but really it just sucks for those who have been waiting from initial preorders, but again it’ll come out and then everyone will be too busy playing with the new toy to care.


----------



## Randy

Deadpool_25 said:


> Not the beta testers themselves, but if it caused delays getting those initial units produced and delivered to NDSP, that would mean the testers got them later than they might have otherwise.



Probably true. That's still not the level of reconfiguring you expect to be hearing 3 months after the original projected shipping date.

I don't think the complaint was that these were never going to come out or they'd be unusable buggy. The concern was an Eleven Rack/Headrush or GE300 or Bias Head type situation where the unit overpromises, the quality is lacking and because it suffers in sales because of the poor initial release, the company can't afford/justify extended support and now the people who stayed loyal to the product paid a premium for an obsolete product a year out that they can't reclaim 1/2 of what they spent on resale either. 

It's like, "The Avengers Game" the pedal.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Randy said:


> Probably true. That's still not the level of reconfiguring you expect to be hearing 3 months after the original projected shipping date.
> 
> I don't think the complaint was that these were never going to come out or they'd be unusable buggy. The concern was an Eleven Rack/Headrush or GE300 or Bias Head type situation where the unit overpromises, the quality is lacking and because it suffers in sales because of the poor initial release, the company can't afford/justify extended support and now the people who stayed loyal to the product paid a premium for an obsolete product a year out that they can't reclaim 1/2 of what they spent on resale. It's like, "The Avengers Game" the pedal.



Possible. They certainly promised a lot. I still feel like they’ll deliver on most of it. The big question for me is still how it’ll sound and feel. The more I mess with the NDSP plugins and the FM3, the less impressed I am with the plugins. I’m seriously new to using plugins though so it’s absolutely possible—probable even—that I’m doing something wrong lol.


----------



## Randy

When I say "overpromise" versus delivery, I don't mean that it will ship without shit that was on the feature list, I mean that you expect the unit to evolve and stay current over the next few years, at least.

Look at the Helix, 5 years old and they released that recent update that added some huge features, and expanding the stomp from 6 blocks to 8. A lot of people bought those units for what was in the box, but the extended support is built into the price-tag, so it's nice that the manufacturer continues developing added features over time.

My concern if I'm a QC early adopter is that I get something that lives up to the advertised spec list, I get a handful of bug fixes and never get an update again while Helix, Fractal or KPA users are still getting pushed new features. Not because the unit is incapable but because developing it further isn't financially viable. I'm not dreaming this up, this happens all the time.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I’m not arguing. You could be absolutely right. Long term support/evolution is something Line6 and Fractal definitely have been good with. Whether Neural can follow suit remains to be seen. Like I said when I canceled my preorder, I may still pick one up in the future but after the initial excitement wore off I decided there are too many outstanding questions.


----------



## Emperoff

Randy said:


> When I say "overpromise" versus delivery, I don't mean that it will ship without shit that was on the feature list, I mean that you expect the unit to evolve and stay current over the next few years, at least.
> 
> Look at the Helix, 5 years old and they released that recent update that added some huge features, and expanding the stomp from 6 blocks to 8. A lot of people bought those units for what was in the box, but the extended support is built into the price-tag, so it's nice that the manufacturer continues developing added features over time.
> 
> My concern if I'm a QC early adopter is that I get something that lives up to the advertised spec list, I get a handful of bug fixes and never get an update again while Helix, Fractal or KPA users are still getting pushed new features. Not because the unit is incapable but because developing it further isn't financially viable. I'm not dreaming this up, this happens all the time.



This, so much this.

I stopped buying guitar plugins because developers don't give a shit about supporting them and pretty much never get updated (as that doesn't give them more money). Instead more and more products are released. So you end up with an unsupported and unsellable tool.

Now compare that to Fractal or Line6.


----------



## Mr_Marty

Wait, what? Two weeks ago they were saying Sweetwater's warehouse was overflowing with these things just waiting for the go ahead.

These guys never tell the truth and no one ever calls them out.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Mr_Marty said:


> Wait, what? Two weeks ago they were saying Sweetwater's warehouse was overflowing with these things just waiting for the go ahead.
> 
> These guys never tell the truth and no one ever calls them out.



Oh, did the Neural guys say that? I thought it was just an internet rumor. Interesting if so.


----------



## Randy

Mathemagician said:


> I called Sweetwater and I was told they actually came in today/yesterday but aren’t being sent out until they get the go-ahead from the Neural guys. Should happen next week or so.



This post is from Nov 28th. Also, in Neural's Nov 14th blog post they say that all the preorder units are assembled.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Randy said:


> This post is from Nov 28th. Also, in Neural's Nov 14th blog post they say that all the preorder units are assembled.



Guessing they’re disassembling them to swap some parts out now? Ah the adventure of early adoption (coming from a habitual early adopter—glad I canceled my preorder).


----------



## Mathemagician

Lol wow yeah that feels like it was over a month+ ago, that’s barely 2 weeks. Could have just been a sales-y non-statement from the rep to make me reconsider also, so I can’t validate any of it.


----------



## Randy

Deadpool_25 said:


> Guessing they’re disassembling them to swap some parts out now? Ah the adventure of early adoption (coming from a habitual early adopter—glad I canceled my preorder).





Mathemagician said:


> Lol wow yeah that feels like it was over a month+ ago, that’s barely 2 weeks. Could have just been a sales-y non-statement from the rep to make me reconsider also, so I can’t validate any of it.



Which is honestly why this post rings true.



Mr_Marty said:


> Wait, what? Two weeks ago they were saying Sweetwater's warehouse was overflowing with these things just waiting for the go ahead.
> 
> These guys never tell the truth and no one ever calls them out.



We're getting wrapped up in minutia and mind reading when the relevant point is that this was supposed to be shipped and it hasn't been, and what little info we've been given has been various shades of wrong or lying. Anyone wanna send these guys $1599 rn?


----------



## narad

They made it so biomimetic that it learned to play hooky.


----------



## SamSam

I think I'm currently right on the tipping point of cancelling my preorder. 

That's 1400eu I can dump into an aristides order.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> My concern if I'm a QC early adopter is that I get something that lives up to the advertised spec list, I get a handful of bug fixes and never get an update again while Helix, Fractal or KPA users are still getting pushed new features. Not because the unit is incapable but because developing it further isn't financially viable. I'm not dreaming this up, this happens all the time.



That's a valid concern for sure. There are even bigger companies that dump their gear on the market and never bother fixing their issues. The Yamaha THR100HD is a great example of this. It's one firmware and editor software update away from being great but that never happened so it has quirks like boosts adding a massive volume jump because there is no separate volume control. 

At least for the THR10-II series they have had a bit more proactive development so maybe they are getting some ideas from Line6 who are owned by Yamaha. Why they haven't made a 50-100W combo version of the THR100 yet is baffling as it would be a perfect higher end competitor for the Boss Katana Artist and Nextone series.

But my take is that you buy a modeler for what it can do today rather than what you hope it will have one year from now.


----------



## Doug Castro

Randy said:


> When I say "overpromise" versus delivery, I don't mean that it will ship without shit that was on the feature list, I mean that you expect the unit to evolve and stay current over the next few years, at least.
> 
> Look at the Helix, 5 years old and they released that recent update that added some huge features, and expanding the stomp from 6 blocks to 8. A lot of people bought those units for what was in the box, but the extended support is built into the price-tag, so it's nice that the manufacturer continues developing added features over time.
> 
> My concern if I'm a QC early adopter is that I get something that lives up to the advertised spec list, I get a handful of bug fixes and never get an update again while Helix, Fractal or KPA users are still getting pushed new features. Not because the unit is incapable but because developing it further isn't financially viable. I'm not dreaming this up, this happens all the time.



While I understand that as a very reasonable concern, let me assure you, this is not the case with Quad Cortex.

The team we built to make QC is one of the things I am the proudest of, it took years to find all of these experts, one by one, and there's no way in hell I'm letting any of them go after the launch, they're just too rare, valuable, and all-around amazing people to work with. 

So you can count on the same team we've built to develop QC will stay after the launch to support the unit. 

There is a lot that we'd like to do with this product and platform that we will do with enough time, and we have a multi-year plan of future features and upgrades that nobody outside the team has even heard about.

As for the hardware upgrades, as some indicated, we are clearly behind schedule. These delays definitely push everything back, beta-testing and its crucial feedback included.

To those who don't know, before Neural, I founded Darkglass Electronics, a company with a very solid track record for quality and reliability. And in the decade I ran it, it pretty much always happened that things surfaced after testing products in the wild that might require minor circuit tweaks (component values, part manufacturers). 

The key is to test things very thoroughly, so all issues are caught before launch instead of after. This is one of the reasons why it's been challenging for us to promise a definite launch date: because we will do as many beta-test and fix-sprint cycles as necessary to ensure that the product is solid.

To those who have waited, the team and I really appreciate your patience. Rest assured that we will not stop working on this until we have something we know you'll love and have an amazing experience with.

As usual, if there are any questions and I'm not around, you can reach out to [email protected].

Kind regards,
Doug.


----------



## olejason

Is the QC hardware itself intended to have a multi-year lifespan? I know some people in the Darkglass world have felt a little burned when they've been an early adopter only to see a 'v2' released a year or so later. There's a tough balance to maintain with that stuff I suppose.


----------



## Doug Castro

olejason said:


> Is the QC hardware itself intended to have a multi-year lifespan? I know some people in the Darkglass world have felt a little burned when they've been an early adopter only to see a 'v2' released a year or so later. There's a tough balance to maintain with that stuff I suppose.



Our products are designed to last for many, many years. 
With Darkglass most of the pedals I hand-built myself a decade ago are still up and running. 
The beauty of a product like Quad Cortex is that I can scratch the constant-improvement itch with new firmware updates, something that in Darkglass was only possible with a new hardware product until the Element and now ADAM came about.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Thanks for the update Doug. I'm purposefully holding out until released to purchase mine, despite my current miff'ing with the noise generated by my HD500X, as this will be a suitable replacement, as well as an upgrade from even the Helix.


----------



## Doug Castro

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Thanks for the update Doug. I'm purposefully holding out until released to purchase mine, despite my current miff'ing with the noise generated by my HD500X, as this will be a suitable replacement, as well as an upgrade from even the Helix.



Thanks! I appreciate that.


----------



## laxu

Andertons has a demo up:



Sounds pretty good to me even though they just scratch the surface of what it can do. But for me seeing the unit in action makes me more excited for getting mine. Can it be 2021 already?

Amp models vs captures sound the same to my ears which is good as that means you won't end up with a situation where you go "I wish there was a real amp model of X so I did not need to use this subpar capture" or vice versa. The from scratch preset with a Friedman BE and cab sounds like something I could work with and enjoy playing. I wish they had demoed the cab block more because I feel as far as hardware modelers go, that's a more significant improvement than it seems on first glance as you can move the mics around and stuff.

This is the kind of stuff I wish NeuralDSP themselves would have released rather than the ones where we barely see the unit itself or how it works and just see some dudes playing. It's one thing to hear how it sounds and another to see how it also works and what settings produced those sounds.


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> Andertons has a demo up:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds pretty good to me even though they just scratch the surface of what it can do. But for me seeing the unit in action makes me more excited for getting mine. Can it be 2021 already?
> 
> Amp models vs captures sound the same to my ears which is good as that means you won't end up with a situation where you go "I wish there was a real amp model of X so I did not need to use this subpar capture" or vice versa. The from scratch preset with a Friedman BE and cab sounds like something I could work with and enjoy playing. I wish they had demoed the cab block more because I feel as far as hardware modelers go, that's a more significant improvement than it seems on first glance as you can move the mics around and stuff.
> 
> This is the kind of stuff I wish NeuralDSP themselves would have released rather than the ones where we barely see the unit itself or how it works and just see some dudes playing. It's one thing to hear how it sounds and another to see how it also works and what settings produced those sounds.




Listening to this, it's occurring to me how ******** boneheaded it is of NDSP to cease (or slow) the flow of communication and content. I was getting ready to cancel my preorder, then after watching this video, I'm a bit excited again. Are they the best tones for me? No, but the unit looks easy to navigate and sounds good, and I'm looking forward to the Capture video. It's painful to watch a company that can be so good in some regards flounder in other important areas.


----------



## Kaura

broangiel said:


> Listening to this, it's occurring to me how ******** boneheaded it is of NDSP to cease (or slow) the flow of communication and content. I was getting ready to cancel my preorder, then after watching this video, I'm a bit excited again. Are they the best tones for me? No, but the unit looks easy to navigate and sounds good, and I'm looking forward to the Capture video. It's painful to watch a company that can be so good in some regards flounder in other important areas.



Maybe it's you who needs to stop acting like a 5-yo on a 2 hour drive asking "are we there yet?" every 5 minutes and grow some patience.

I think NDSP has handled this pretty well and I respect them for delaying the product as much as needed. Of course it's easy for me to say since I didn't pre-order the QC but still, I don't want this launch to turn into "Cyberbug 2077" of guitar processors.


----------



## broangiel

Kaura said:


> Maybe it's you who needs to stop acting like a 5-yo on a 2 hour drive asking "are we there yet?" every 5 minutes and grow some patience.
> 
> I think NDSP has handled this pretty well and I respect them for delaying the product as much as needed. Of course it's easy for me to say since I didn't pre-order the QC but still, I don't want this launch to turn into "Cyberbug 2077" of guitar processors.


Weird, I don't recall acting like that. Perhaps you can direct me to an example? I think it's reasonable to want communication from a company who crowdfunded a product by collecting money from preorders.


----------



## Kaura

broangiel said:


> Weird, I don't recall acting like that. Perhaps you can direct me to an example? I think it's reasonable to want communication from a company who crowdfunded a product by collecting money from preorders.



They've been making frequent update posts on their blog. Do you want them to be like Trump on Twitter and tell you "it's coming, very soon, we promise" every 5 minutes.


----------



## broangiel

Kaura said:


> They've been making frequent update posts on their blog. Do you want them to be like Trump on Twitter and tell you "it's coming, very soon, we promise" every 5 minutes.



Alright, though I don't understand why you've got such a bug up your ass over how I feel about NDSP, I'll explain my position:

The delays don't bother me. I agree with you that I'd rather have a delayed product than a broken one.
The blog updates have slowed, but I still think the bi-weekly format is OK.
There was a NDSP rep on TGP who claimed he would stick around, answer community questions, provide updates, etc, and he ghosted the forum. This is where communication took a sharp decline. There were a lot of easy questions that could've been answered that were entirely ignored.
The media content has been dogshit. There are a few videos of a bunch of bros in a studio playing riffs, but nothing that highlights the functionalist, navigation, features, etc of the QC. The Andertons video was the first one I've see that actually shows how the unit is operated in clear, concise format. The upcoming Capture shootout will be the first of its kind. And come on, that's such low-hanging fruit. How has there not been a clear, A/B shootout of amps vs Captures this late in the game?
In the midst of all of this, Neural has been peeling off several amps, captures, cabs, and effects from the launch list. This kind of stuff doesn't build confidence.


----------



## Kaura

broangiel said:


> Alright, though I don't understand why you've got such a bug up your ass over how I feel about NDSP, I'll explain my position:
> 
> The delays don't bother me. I agree with you that I'd rather have a delayed product than a broken one.
> The blog updates have slowed, but I still think the bi-weekly format is OK.
> There was a NDSP rep on TGP who claimed he would stick around, answer community questions, provide updates, etc, and he ghosted the forum. This is where communication took a sharp decline. There were a lot of easy questions that could've been answered that were entirely ignored.
> The media content has been dogshit. There are a few videos of a bunch of bros in a studio playing riffs, but nothing that highlights the functionalist, navigation, features, etc of the QC. The Andertons video was the first one I've see that actually shows how the unit is operated in clear, concise format. The upcoming Capture shootout will be the first of its kind. And come on, that's such low-hanging fruit. How has there not been a clear, A/B shootout of amps vs Captures this late in the game?
> In the midst of all of this, Neural has been peeling off several amps, captures, cabs, and effects from the launch list. This kind of stuff doesn't build confidence.



Fair enough, good points. I guess their tactic is to just get the product done and do all their own demos and instructional videos (if there will be any) after that. That's how things usually work, at least in the plugin market, ime.


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> This is the kind of stuff I wish NeuralDSP themselves would have released rather than the ones where we barely see the unit itself or how it works and just see some dudes playing. It's one thing to hear how it sounds and another to see how it also works and what settings produced those sounds.



Agreed and agreed.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I gotta agree with @broangiel on a lot of points here. Especially about posting a bit and answering some questions, and then basically disappearing. Doug Castro posted a bit in a few places but then seemed to disappear until basically yesterday I think.

And there have been many questions that I feel should’ve been answered and weren’t (and some questions I’m not surprised weren’t answered).

Im still glad I canceled my preorder. In this case I’d rather wait and see if a purchase is justified later.

Also: is the Anderson’s demo with a unit that has the parts that are being replaced?


----------



## Mathemagician

Kaura said:


> Fair enough, good points. I guess their tactic is to just get the product done and do all their own demos and instructional videos (if there will be any) after that. That's how things usually work, at least in the plugin market, ime.



If it’s anything like the plug-in market the same 20 you-tubers will all throw up day-1 review videos calling it the second coming. Which it may or may not be, but every video will call it the must-have product of the next 48 to 72 hours. Maybe even a week.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

broangiel said:


> In the midst of all of this, Neural has been peeling off several amps, captures, cabs, and effects from the launch list. This kind of stuff doesn't build confidence.



What? Really? That's kinda shitty, even though im sure the excuse will be "The sim didnt live up to our standards yadda yadda". 

Neural's PR department doing a pretty poor job for my tastes.


----------



## Emperoff

Mathemagician said:


> If it’s anything like the plug-in market the same 20 you-tubers will all throw up day-1 review videos calling it the second coming. Which it may or may not be, but every video will call it the must-have product of the next 48 to 72 hours. Maybe even a week.



Bluff featured the QC in a recent video as one of the best guitar products of 2020, wihout being even released. So you can bet it will as you say


----------



## broangiel

Ataraxia2320 said:


> What? Really? That's kinda shitty, even though im sure the excuse will be "The sim didnt live up to our standards yadda yadda".
> 
> Neural's PR department doing a pretty poor job for my tastes.



yep. Most recently they removed:

Mesa Mark IIC+
Bogner Uberschall
Marshall Silver Jubilee
Fender Princeton
Grain Wham
Tremolo/Panner

Shiva
Morgan AC
And this doesn’t include the “Lunchbox” and “Dumble”models that were removed earlier. A Dumble model conveniently ended up in the Cory Wong plug-in, but who knows if there’s a connection there. 

some of these, they claim to add back in later, but the reliability of those statements remains to be seen.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

I have to say the Andertons video was pretty good. 

The QC Interface looks like the new gold standard. The tones are good, feels to me like a step above helix and a step below fractal. 

Being 400 euros more expensive than the FM3 I think Neural are going to have a hard time of it.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

broangiel said:


> yep. Most recently they removed:
> 
> Mesa Mark IIC+
> Bogner Uberschall
> Marshall Silver Jubilee
> Fender Princeton
> Grain Wham
> Tremolo/Panner
> 
> Shiva
> Morgan AC
> And this doesn’t include the “Lunchbox” and “Dumble”models that were removed earlier. A Dumble model conveniently ended up in the Cory Wong plug-in, but who knows if there’s a connection there.
> 
> some of these, they claim to add back in later, but the reliability of those statements remains to be seen.



Oof, I thought they would be more obscure and less sought after amps.


----------



## Emperoff

Ataraxia2320 said:


> I have to say the Andertons video was pretty good.
> 
> The QC Interface looks like the new gold standard. The tones are good, feels to me like a step above helix and a step below fractal.
> 
> Being 400 euros more expensive than the FM3 I think Neural are going to have a hard time of it.



This is basically the elephant in the room. Defenders resort to the capture feature, but what's the point of captures if they don't sound as good as Fractal.

Because let's not forget that Fractal is still a step *below* Kemper in amp tone.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> Alright, though I don't understand why you've got such a bug up your ass over how I feel about NDSP, I'll explain my position:
> 
> The delays don't bother me. I agree with you that I'd rather have a delayed product than a broken one.
> The blog updates have slowed, but I still think the bi-weekly format is OK.
> There was a NDSP rep on TGP who claimed he would stick around, answer community questions, provide updates, etc, and he ghosted the forum. This is where communication took a sharp decline. There were a lot of easy questions that could've been answered that were entirely ignored.
> The media content has been dogshit. There are a few videos of a bunch of bros in a studio playing riffs, but nothing that highlights the functionalist, navigation, features, etc of the QC. The Andertons video was the first one I've see that actually shows how the unit is operated in clear, concise format. The upcoming Capture shootout will be the first of its kind. And come on, that's such low-hanging fruit. How has there not been a clear, A/B shootout of amps vs Captures this late in the game?
> In the midst of all of this, Neural has been peeling off several amps, captures, cabs, and effects from the launch list. This kind of stuff doesn't build confidence.



I agree with several points but at the same time I don't mind if something does not make it to release. It's going to come in patches the next year so it's not an issue. I think you are demanding a lot from a product (and stuff surrounding it) that is not even released yet. They must be so busy trying to make it happen that they just don't have time to trawl the forums the same way I can during my workday. I would certainly hope that by the time the unit is out several of your points will be addressed with NDSP people making a more common appearance here and other forums.

I do agree about video content though. There should have been a video like the Andertons one months ago and what NeuralDSP has given us has been really weak as far as promotional material goes. That's a marketing failure.

My feeling for the past few weeks has been "well, it will arrive when it does and I will give it a fair try and send it back if it doesn't deliver" but after seeing the Andertons video I am again excited to get mine. If it still manages to somehow not be what I expect it's just going back to Thomann and I am out some time and nothing more.


----------



## broangiel

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Oof, I thought they would be more obscure and less sought after amps.


Right. I really hope they do make it back into the unit in future updates.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Finished watching the Anderton’s video. Sounds great there imo. I’m not too excited about the blindfold capture video but I understand why some will be.

Lee saying how good it feels is interesting. He’s notoriously biased against digital products and even when they sound pretty good he’s usually put off by their feel. He’s also usually put off by their UI which is clearly not the case here. Granted he’s just one dude, but his being impressed in those to areas is a decent implication that NDSP has done a good job in these areas.


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> I agree with several points but at the same time I don't mind if something does not make it to release. It's going to come in patches the next year so it's not an issue. I think you are demanding a lot from a product (and stuff surrounding it) that is not even released yet. They must be so busy trying to make it happen that they just don't have time to trawl the forums the same way I can during my workday. I would certainly hope that by the time the unit is out several of your points will be addressed with NDSP people making a more common appearance here and other forums.
> 
> I do agree about video content though. There should have been a video like the Andertons one months ago and what NeuralDSP has given us has been really weak as far as promotional material goes. That's a marketing failure.
> 
> My feeling for the past few weeks has been "well, it will arrive when it does and I will give it a fair try and send it back if it doesn't deliver" but after seeing the Andertons video I am again excited to get mine. If it still manages to somehow not be what I expect it's just going back to Thomann and I am out some time and nothing more.


I suppose I justify my expectations because they largely come from the marketing team. I’m not asking anything of the engineering team, as I’m sure they are ridiculously busy. When I see a video like the Anderton’s, I feel very similar to what you’ve mentioned a couple times—why am I not getting this straight from the horse’s mouth? It’s clearly ready for a demo like this, so where has it been? I don’t expect daily videos or updates or a deluge of information, but it’s been a drought, so even a really simple video like Anderson’s is refreshing.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> Because let's not forget that Fractal is still a step *below* Kemper in amp tone.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Emperoff said:


> This is basically the elephant in the room. Defenders resort to the capture feature, but what's the point of captures if they don't sound as good as Fractal.
> 
> Because let's not forget that Fractal is still a step *below* Kemper in amp tone.



Hard disagree. Kemper profiles always have something weird going on in the higher mids for me. I would put them a half step below Fractal. (I own neither so I don't have a horse in the race).


----------



## Ataraxia2320

laxu said:


> I think you are demanding a lot from a product (and stuff surrounding it) that is not even released yet.



I think he's just demanding what the company themselves promised. I hardly think that's an unrealistic expectation.


----------



## laxu

Ataraxia2320 said:


> I have to say the Andertons video was pretty good.
> 
> The QC Interface looks like the new gold standard. The tones are good, feels to me like a step above helix and a step below fractal.
> 
> Being 400 euros more expensive than the FM3 I think Neural are going to have a hard time of it.



Line6 does not seem to have any trouble selling the Helix Floor at several hundred euros more than the FM3 so I think NDSP will be just fine. To me the FM3 is not that great value with the switching it has and its somewhat dated UI. Helix Native is another plus to the Line6 package.

At the time of writing using G66 and Thomann pricing (w/ Finnish VAT 24%):

Line6 HX Stomp - 575 €
Boss GT-1000 Core - 698 €
Boss GT-1000 - 990 €
Line6 Helix LT - 999 €
Fractal FM3 - 1266 €
Line6 Helix Floor - 1499 €
Kemper Profiler Stage - 1590 €

NeuralDSP Quad Cortex - 1639 €
The situation would be different in the US where I understand the FM3 is cheaper than the Helix LT. The real "loser" here is the Kemper Stage for me as at that price I just see zero reason to pick it over the QC.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> View attachment 87940



Yup. Mine and maaaaaaaaaaaany others. Same way Fractal trumps the Kemper in the FX department.

But of course there's a lot people that say Helix sounds better than Fractal... So everyone has their opinion of course.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

laxu said:


> Line6 does not seem to have any trouble selling the Helix Floor at several hundred euros more than the FM3 so I think NDSP will be just fine. To me the FM3 is not that great value with the switching it has and its somewhat dated UI. Helix Native is another plus to the Line6 package.
> 
> At the time of writing using G66 and Thomann pricing (w/ Finnish VAT 24%):
> 
> Line6 HX Stomp - 575 €
> Boss GT-1000 Core - 698 €
> Boss GT-1000 - 990 €
> Line6 Helix LT - 999 €
> Fractal FM3 - 1266 €
> Line6 Helix Floor - 1499 €
> Kemper Profiler Stage - 1590 €
> 
> NeuralDSP Quad Cortex - 1639 €
> The situation would be different in the US where I understand the FM3 is cheaper than the Helix LT. The real "loser" here is the Kemper Stage for me as at that price I just see zero reason to pick it over the QC.



Line 6 already has a HUGE install base and there are cheaper options for those who do not want to fork out the full amount of cash. The company has a lot of good will and they have zero availability issues. Helix also has an expression pedal built in, the lack of which is (stupidly in my opinion) a dealbreaker for many people I've talked to with the QC. 

Most importantly it also had the advantage of competing with a product that was (and still is in some regions) constantly sold out/unavailable. QC wont have this luxury.

Neural DSP have a small install base amongst people who use their VST's. The VST's are of the same quality as their QC counterparts so it gives people less incentive to switch over than people who went from a pod hd to the helix. Availability remains to be seen, but could be the deciding factor for neural.

I'm sure their own marketing team knows better than me, but that's just my 2c.


----------



## I play music

Neural DSP and Darkglass is the Apple of guitar and bass. Their advertisement is more like all the cool guys use this, do so too and you're one of the cool ones. I don't feel like they even try to convince you with specs or details.
And just like Apple they make things that work well but others often offer more for the money IMO or similar stuff for less money


----------



## Emperoff

I play music said:


> Neural DSP and Darkglass is the Apple of guitar and bass. Their advertisement is more like all the cool guys use this, do so too and you're one of the cool ones. I don't feel like they even try to convince you with specs or details.
> And just like Apple they make things that work well but others often offer more for the money IMO or similar stuff for less money



First thing they say on the Anderton's video, actually


----------



## laxu

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Line 6 already has a HUGE install base and there are cheaper options for those who do not want to fork out the full amount of cash. The company has a lot of good will and they have zero availability issues. Helix also has an expression pedal built in, the lack of which is (stupidly in my opinion) a dealbreaker for many people I've talked to with the qc. It also had the advantage of competing with a product that was (and still is in some regions) constantly sold out/unavailable. QC wont have this luxury.



Line6 has said that their user base prefers having an expression pedal and I disagree with that. I would gladly lop off the integrated expression pedal off my Helix Floor because it makes it so much larger and I can't place the pedal where I want like I can with an external unit. So for me the QC and FM3 way of separate expression pedal is just far better. Leave it out when you don't need it, plug it in when you do.


----------



## I play music

Emperoff said:


> First thing they say on the Anderton's video, actually


 I didn't watch because I'm not a fan of Chapman/Anderton


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> This is basically the elephant in the room. Defenders resort to the capture feature, but what's the point of captures if they don't sound as good as Fractal.
> 
> Because let's not forget that Fractal is still a step *below* Kemper in amp tone.



Im gonna mention the tonematch feature til you get on board


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> Yup. Mine and maaaaaaaaaaaany others. Same way Fractal trumps the Kemper in the FX department.
> 
> But of course there's a lot people that say Helix sounds better than Fractal... So everyone has their opinion of course.



Yeah. Just like maaaaaaany people say Fractal sounds better than Kemper. A lot of people have switched from Kemper to Fractal and vice versa. At this point, having not used a Kemper, I have to think it can sound great. You just have to have a profile or group of them you love, right?

Once you get to the top shelf, this shit is almost all just opinion and preference.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Once you get to the top shelf, this shit is almost all just opinion and preference.



Of course. I just say that in my experience and many others I've talked to (and I'm not even counting internet forums here), nothing touches the Kemper as the closest thing to an amp. But not everyone's priorities are the same, and that's why I don't own a Kemper. I don't like its workflow nor the wormhole that captures are. Fractal still offers the most feature-packed bundle of the market.

Which takes me back to not giving a shit about QC capture feature either, because if I did I'd already have a Kemper.



budda said:


> Im gonna mention the tonematch feature til you get on board



I'm _sorta_ on board, since I'm on the FM3 waiting list. But living in the EU means I might get it in 2023 

After watching the Anderton's video, I really liked the interface, but the tone wasn't anything earth-shaking. And since it still is more expensive than the FM3 we're back to square one.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

laxu said:


> Line6 has said that their user base prefers having an expression pedal and I disagree with that. I would gladly lop off the integrated expression pedal off my Helix Floor because it makes it so much larger and I can't place the pedal where I want like I can with an external unit. So for me the QC and FM3 way of separate expression pedal is just far better. Leave it out when you don't need it, plug it in when you do.



Like I said, I think it's stupid that its a deal-breaker for so many too but it would seem we are unfortunately in the minority.


----------



## Emperoff

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Like I said, I think it's stupid that its a deal-breaker for so many too but it would seem we are unfortunately in the minority.



It might be stupid for you, but having a single device to worry about onstage is a blessing.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Emperoff said:


> It might be stupid for you, but having a single device to worry about onstage is a blessing.



I'm not saying it's a stupid idea overall, just for me. Didn't mean to imply other people were stupid for having a different opinion. Apologies.


----------



## Frostbite

Helix has come quite a way. The Revv stuff they have is on par with the Neural stuff IMO even when comparing side by side. TBH the Misha patch they included in the most recent update is the best tone I've ever gotten from Helix as long as I switch the cab out


----------



## MaxOfMetal

As someone with all four, Fractal, Helix, Kemper, and Neural* neither sounds objectively better than the other out of the gate. It really comes down to how good (or bad) you are at navigating and setting up your patches/profiles, not to mention how much time you feel like investing at a given moment.

What a time to be alive. 

*Obviously not the QC, but I've spent a good amount of time with the plug-ins now.


----------



## Randy

Glad this increasingly looks like it's gonna be a thing. More options are better


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah uhh count me as someone that counts the expression pedal as a dealbreaker or not. One the main reasons I went for the POD Go over the HX Stomp is the expression pedal, and one of the reasons I'm avoiding the Helix LT is because of how abysmal the expression pedal is.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Like I said, I think it's stupid that its a deal-breaker for so many too but it would seem we are unfortunately in the minority.





Emperoff said:


> It might be stupid for you, but having a single device to worry about onstage is a blessing.


It's so weird because in the real world I've probably only seen two pedalboards ever without at least one EXP/Wah/Volume pedal, and almost all of them have at least one of those pedals shifted all the way to right side of the board. While I (sort of) understand the idea of being able to reposition it, I still think any floor pedal should at least come with one and the appropriate cables. To me its like a buying a car but having to pay extra if you want to use it to make a left turn.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

GunpointMetal said:


> It's so weird because in the real world I've probably only seen two pedalboards ever without at least one EXP/Wah/Volume pedal, and almost all of them have at least one of those pedals shifted all the way to right side of the board. While I (sort of) understand the idea of being able to reposition it, I still think any floor pedal should at least come with one and the appropriate cables. To me its like a buying a car but having to pay extra if you want to use it to make a left turn.



I'd rather pay less and have a more compact unit and buy an expression pedal for 20 bucks. It's also one less thing to break on the unit itself. 

I also see the other side of it though, charging 1600 or so euros for a floor unit like the QC (or 1200 for the FM3) only to not provide anything in the box is pretty mental. 

Different folks, different strokes I guess.


----------



## Randy

I think the price for what you get is fine in the QC, Kemper and FM3. 

I prefer the modular type format where you're basically buying the brain and you can add switches and toggles as you please. Leon Todd has a great video showing how he uses to controller settings in the FM3 to use the control the autowah without an expression pedal and it works really well. I like the idea of a compact fly rig, that I can expand as much as I want based on the gig.


----------



## Randy

One thought I had about the QC is some hesitation on how much it relies on the touch screen. Considering it's designed to go on the floor and get stepped on, I'm worried about damage to the digitizer making it near impossible to use the thing if something happens to it.


----------



## MetalDaze

Randy said:


> One thought I had about the QC is some hesitation on how much it relies on the touch screen. Considering it's designed to go on the floor and get stepped on, I'm worried about damage to the digitizer making it near impossible to use the thing if something happens to it.



I remember how they had a video where they jumped on the thing over and over to show how robust it is. 

But then, you hear more recently about the reliability issues.


----------



## Randy

MetalDaze said:


> I remember how they had a video where they jumped on the thing over and over to show how robust it is.
> 
> But then, you hear more recently about the reliability issues.



Like I've said, I don't want to be "that guy" that dogs this thing but think about it. It's a capacitive screen that's designed for you to, you know, tap, swipe, etc. I think it's even multi-touch capable right? Does that dovetail with the concept of being able to stand on, jump or kick it without damaging it? Why isn't my phone or laptop, made by significantly bigger companies with billions of dollars in R&D capable of that? You know? That's kinda dubious.


----------



## Emperoff

Randy said:


> Like I've said, I don't want to be "that guy" that dogs this thing but think about it. It's a capacitive screen that's designed for you to, you know, tap, swipe, etc. I think it's even multi-touch capable right? Does that dovetail with the concept of being able to stand on, jump or kick it without damaging it? Why isn't my phone or laptop, made by significantly bigger companies with billions of dollars in R&D capable of that? You know? That's kinda dubious.



It's clear by now I'm not the biggest supporter of this product, but I wouldn't avise anyone to jump or kick their gear whatever it is


----------



## Randy

Emperoff said:


> It's clear by now I'm not the biggest supporter of this product, but I wouldn't avise anyone to jump or kick their gear whatever it is



I wouldn't have gone that far, but a dude brought up that they demo'd it doing that and I'm just saying that sounds kinda like bullshit. I've had digitizer in tablets and laptops break literally because I set the fuckin bag down on the table too fast. This thing is literally designed for you to shuttle it to a gig and then step on it in the dark for a couple hours. That's a totally valid concern.

If this wasn't some fuckin black box Mac-cult type device, the answer to this question would be "all functions can be controlled with the physical buttons" or "you can take full control of it using the wifi to your phone" or "the screen is easy to hot swap if it gets damaged and they're afforable and readily available". Instead it's all "just believe me it works, wait until it's out (soon)".

Cool, I hope it comes out and nothing ever goes wrong and they support firmware updates on it for the next 30 years. Until then...


----------



## Doug Castro

MetalDaze said:


> I remember how they had a video where they jumped on the thing over and over to show how robust it is.
> 
> But then, you hear more recently about the reliability issues.



Actually it’s not adequate to speak of reliability issues when a unit is still in beta or development. 
The video of Pancho jumping on my back and we standing in the actuators shows correctly that the mechanical design is super robust. 

Recently we’ve had to upgrade a few components which is a perfectly normal procedure for a hardware product in the beta-testing/release candidate stage. Usually you: you have a solid deign and architecture, then build 30-50pcs for your dev team to work on and test a higher number, make changes based on what they find. Then you build and ship a few hundred to beta testers and again, find things that could be improved, change those and repeat. We are in that last step. 
Bill of material changes before a hardware product goes out are more the norm than the exception (in 10 years running Darkglass it almost always happened during the beta stage).
The fact that in several of these cycles we’ve only had to change 2 component values/manufacturers out of Cortex’s 1700+ components attests how solid the design, and architecture are.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Like I've said, I don't want to be "that guy" that dogs this thing but think about it. It's a capacitive screen that's designed for you to, you know, tap, swipe, etc. I think it's even multi-touch capable right? Does that dovetail with the concept of being able to stand on, jump or kick it without damaging it? Why isn't my phone or laptop, made by significantly bigger companies with billions of dollars in R&D capable of that? You know? That's kinda dubious.



It's all about the purpose it's built for. The design concerns for a laptop, phone and floor modeler are very different.

Smartphones used to be plastic, including the surface of the touchscreen. Then manufacturers decided that people wanted a more "premium" device so instead they started using aluminum casings and glass backs. Aluminum helps with heat dissipation of these increasingly more powerful phones so that makes sense. Glass on the other hand not so much but that's what you get on an Apple phone nowadays because of some "premium" bullshit.

At the same time they wanted the screen to look better so plastic gave way to Gorilla glass, which has gotten increasingly more durable over the years but is still prone to cracking if the phone lands on a corner. To get better image quality and brightness the glass is then fused with the display panel and digitizer, making for some rather expensive front panel replacements. The phone on my gf's iPhone X cracked recently and she would like to get it replaced but I am just planning to get her a new latest gen phone because the cost for a screen and battery replacement is over half the cost of a new model.

Laptops have similar concerns for their displays where image quality and slimness trump durability.

But on a floor modeler, image quality is more about seeing your screen from various angles on stage bright enough and the screen being durable enough to withstand the rigors of the road. So the screens used and how they are mounted and protected are chosen with totally different requirements.

Similar durability requirements are factors for switches and the knobs and buttons you would find on current modelers. If you break the joystick on a Helix you are in just as big trouble. But unless you get a fan on stage stomping around how likely is that to happen? How likely are you in the heat of the moment to stomp on the touchscreen of the QC hard enough to break it? I think most guitarists are conscious enough of their gear to not treat them like the foot pedal of a bass drum.


----------



## Emperoff

Randy said:


> I wouldn't have gone that far, but a dude brought up that they demo'd it doing that and I'm just saying that sounds kinda like bullshit. I've had digitizer in tablets and laptops break literally because I set the fuckin bag down on the table too fast. This thing is literally designed for you to shuttle it to a gig and then step on it in the dark for a couple hours. That's a totally valid concern.
> 
> If this wasn't some fuckin black box Mac-cult type device, the answer to this question would be "all functions can be controlled with the physical buttons" or "you can take full control of it using the wifi to your phone" or "the screen is easy to hot swap if it gets damaged and they're afforable and readily available". Instead it's all "just believe me it works, wait until it's out (soon)".
> 
> Cool, I hope it comes out and nothing ever goes wrong and they support firmware updates on it for the next 30 years. Until then...




Honestly I wouldn't argue much about touchscreens. It's quite clear all manufacturers will adapt that format sooner or later. It's inevitable.

Most floor modellers fail (according to my tech) due to dirt issues. The less physical buttons the device has on it, the less likely to fail as dirt gets inside through them. Luckily it's a much easier fix than a broken screen. I replaced my GT8 (which I used as a MIDI controller) for a GT100 for that exact reason, as I had it fixed twice. When I see the Axe AX8, it reminds me of that with so many buttons and knobs. The FM3 definetely improved on that.

I think a well implemente hybrid approach is (as in most cases) the best solution.



laxu said:


> I think most guitarists are conscious enough of their gear to not treat them like the foot pedal of a bass drum.



I'm much more concerned about drunk dumbasses on the 1st row of a gig. Then again that applies to anything that's on the floor.


----------



## Randy

Emperoff said:


> Honestly I wouldn't argue much about touchscreens. It's quite clear all manufacturers will adapt that format sooner or later. It's inevitable.



Agreed and I'm actually glad it has the touchscreen, I'm just asking the question of what happens if it fails since the Andertons video makes clear how much it relies on it. 

Yes or no question, can you still tap into the full functionality of the pedal with just the physical buttons? If no, not a deal breaker but can it at least get you through the rest of the gig; ie: all your patch changes and some basic tweaking? If yes, then I think that's fine. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Agreed and I'm actually glad it has the touchscreen, I'm just asking the question of what happens if it fails since the Andertons video makes clear how much it relies on it.
> 
> Yes or no question, can you still tap into the full functionality of the pedal with just the physical buttons? If no, not a deal breaker but can it at least get you through the rest of the gig; ie: all your patch changes and some basic tweaking? If yes, then I think that's fine. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.



You would have your patch changes programmed so if the only thing that is broken is the touchscreen then the switching and sound still works just fine. You just can't operate anything if the digitizer on the touchscreen is broken and thus it is unresponsive to touch. If the screen is cracked but the digitizer works then it will still accept touch input just fine, might just be tough if you can't see anything or if the screen is a garbled mess. But I do not expect it to have a mode where you can select and scroll through things without the touchscreen.

This is why you bring backup gear.


----------



## Mathemagician

laxu said:


> This is why you bring backup gear.



“Buy two FM3’s/QC’s/5150’s” got it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

laxu said:


> This is why you bring backup gear.


 This really is a foreign concept to a lot of performing musicians. 



Mathemagician said:


> “Buy two FM3’s/QC’s/5150’s” got it.


 Well yes, but also no. You don't need to identical rigs (unless you can afford it) but having a portable, workable backup solution should be on every performer's list of needs. For me its a Firehawk FX backing up my Helix. Sure it doesn't sound as good or have all the switching options, but if the Helix takes a shit during soundcheck or during the show, I've got something that's functional and ready to go. I mean, you don't go to play a show more than a few miles from home without a second guitar, right?


----------



## laxu

Mathemagician said:


> “Buy two FM3’s/QC’s/5150’s” got it.



If you can afford it, yeah. Go look at any bigger pro's gear and you will often see duplicates of their preferred gear as backup. But your backup rig can be anything that you are willing to carry. I'd probably use my BluGuitar Amp 1 because it's so small and light and will get my core amp tones just fine. You could just as well use some dirt cheap POD 2.0 direct into PA, whatever gets the job done in a pinch.

The QC is also exceptionally well set up to get you going as quick as possible. For example if your QC dies on the road and you can actually order a new one and get it, it would take you like 10 minutes to have it download your presets and settings from the cloud.


----------



## Mathemagician

To be clear - nothing in my post was sarcasm/rude.

It was 100% me just justifying buying more gear in SSO fashion.

Although I do appreciate your sincere and well thought out responses.


----------



## budda

Mathemagician said:


> “Buy two FM3’s/QC’s/5150’s” got it.



5150s/axe fx's.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

On the subject of durability, the one thing I never see manufacturers address is the power adapter.

The amount of times I was doing sound or playing a gig where someone's floor unit crapped out on them because of a shitty adapter is not insignificant.

It's 2020, can we get braided coverings and springs on the ends of the power plugs please? These are always the first things to die on tour and I've never seen a company do this.

Also what kind of power adaptor does this thing need? Is it a common enough voltage and amperage where you could buy an off the shelf replacement in a pinch?

That's another thing I really like about the FM3, they have an internal PSU and it uses a standard kettle lead.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Ataraxia2320 said:


> On the subject of durability, the one thing I never see manufacturers address is the power adapter.
> 
> The amount of times I was doing sound or playing a gig where someone's floor unit crapped out on them because of a shitty adapter is not insignificant.
> 
> It's 2020, can we get braided coverings and springs on the ends of the power plugs please? These are always the first things to die on tour and I've never seen a company do this.
> 
> Also what kind of power adaptor does this thing need? Is it a common enough voltage and amperage where you could buy an off the shelf replacement in a pinch?
> 
> That's another thing I really like about the FM3, they have an internal PSU and it uses a standard kettle lead.


Definitely. If there's an external power supply, please no unique voltage/amperage or odd barrel sizes, and no adapters that take up more than one outlet space on a power strip/conditioner. And plug reinforcement should be standard on anything intended for gigging. One of my biggest gripes with a lot of Line 6 stuff is that the PSU or ports are NOT gig-worthy. Their budget wireless uses a micro-USB port that has no support and is attached to the board by two pins. All of the floor pedals that have an external power supply have this goofy-ass huge power supply that eats up at least two spots on a power strip and then has inverted polarity AND a 3' cable. Not well thought out.


----------



## budda

IEC's ftw. Slap them on everything.


----------



## Doug Castro

Very few modern products actually rely on internal linear power supplies, which means we all use switching mode power supplies.

All things being equal, electrically an internal SMPS (powered via IEC) is just as likely to fail as an external one (power adapter).

The difference is that if your adapter dies you can probably make due with a 1Spot or another third party power supply with enough power output for the gig, whereas for an internal power supply you’d need a direct replacement.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Doug Castro said:


> Very few modern products actually rely on internal linear power supplies, which means we all use switching mode power supplies..



Can we get this in layman's terms please? Might as well be speaking Finnish for how much of that I actually understood.



Doug Castro said:


> All things being equal, electrically an internal SMPS (powered via IEC) is just as likely to fail as an external one (power adapter).



Are you saying that units with an interternal psu is as likely to break as the wall block power supply (like this one: https://irishelectronics.ie/12V-2A-Wall-Block-Power-Supply)? 

Because if so colour me sceptical, I've seen a million of these die, but I've seen very few internal psus with an iec out dying.


----------



## Doug Castro

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Can we get this in layman's terms please? Might as well be speaking Finnish for how much of that I actually understood.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that units with an interternal psu is as likely to break as the wall block power supply (like this one: https://irishelectronics.ie/12V-2A-Wall-Block-Power-Supply)?
> 
> Because if so colour me sceptical, I've seen a million of these die, but I've seen very few internal psus with an iec out dying.



I see how that’s a very understandable bias to have, as you’re probably comparing higher end internal supplies (on properly designed devices) versus cheap and subpar external power supplies as the one you referenced in the link.

What I tried to say is that if the design and quality are of similar grade, there’s no inherent significant difference between an external versus internal switching mode power supply.

A fairer comparison could be how many times you may have seen an internal high quality SMPS fail versus a modern cellphone charger (also a SMPS, but a properly designed and built one).


----------



## GunpointMetal

The fact that the PSU is outside the device means it has a much higher chance of receiving damage. Whether or not they fail on their own really isn't the point, I don't think.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

What are you guys doing to your power supplies? Just plug it into your power strip and tuck it under your pedalboard with the rest of the cables. 

Set it and forget it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> What are you guys doing to your power supplies? Just plug it into your power strip and tuck it under your pedalboard with the rest of the cables.
> 
> Set it and forget it.


 Unless you're like me and half the point of an AIO floor pedal is to eliminate a pedalboard.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

GunpointMetal said:


> Unless you're like me and half the point of an AIO floor pedal is to eliminate a pedalboard.



You don't even have to get something fancy, some scrap wood to make a riser to stow the cable and maybe some other knick-knacks. It's just a basic protection thing. 

You do you, but that's like not having a case/bag for your guitar.


----------



## Mr_Marty

Doug Castro said:


> I see how that’s a very understandable bias to have, as you’re probably comparing higher end internal supplies (on properly designed devices) versus cheap and subpar external power supplies as the one you referenced in the link.
> 
> What I tried to say is that if the design and quality are of similar grade, there’s no inherent significant difference between an external versus internal switching mode power supply.
> 
> A fairer comparison could be how many times you may have seen an internal high quality SMPS fail versus a modern cellphone charger (also a SMPS, but a properly designed and built one).


The reason external supplies fail is because the cable gets bunged.


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> This really is a foreign concept to a lot of non-performing musicians.



Fixed 

Everytime I hear/read "and it fits in your guitar gigbag" I immediately think that those guys never had equipment failing onstage.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> You don't even have to get something fancy, some scrap wood to make a riser to stow the cable and maybe some other knick-knacks. It's just a basic protection thing.
> 
> You do you, but that's like not having a case/bag for your guitar.


 If the PSU is inside the unit, all you need is a transport case and a IEC cable. Even if you mount that stuff to a board, you still need a case to put it in. Horses for courses and whatnot, but an internal PSU makes more sense to me (especially if its claimed to be high-spec). I've been getting a chuckle out of the pedalboard amps that come with a huge laptop in-line PSU that's as big as the pedal. Instead of one thing that's compact, now you have two things that are compact that would equal about the same size together as if they were in the same enclosure, and you've added 6' of cable as possible failure points.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Emperoff said:


> Fixed
> 
> Everytime I hear/read "and it fits in your guitar gigbag" I immediately think that those guys never had equipment failing onstage.


It also definitely applies to performing musicians. Nothing like watching a guitar player scramble around the venue trying to find someone with a guitar they can put in their tuning.


----------



## Randy

MaxOfMetal said:


> What are you guys doing to your power supplies? Just plug it into your power strip and tuck it under your pedalboard with the rest of the cables.
> 
> Set it and forget it.



It's been a long time but I've had some units with super weird and inconvenient power supplies for sure. My old Boss GX-700 had one of those ones where the PS is in the middle of the cord with no disconnects and it was literally the size of a brick. 

If the power supply on this is easily swappable with something like a 1 spot like Doug said, that would be a very practical choice.


----------



## budda

GunpointMetal said:


> It also definitely applies to performing musicians. Nothing like watching a guitar player scramble around the venue trying to find someone with a guitar they can put in their tuning.



Fucking. Tour. Flashbacks.


----------



## sakeido

MaxOfMetal said:


> What are you guys doing to your power supplies? Just plug it into your power strip and tuck it under your pedalboard with the rest of the cables.
> 
> Set it and forget it.



dunno bout you but I always windmill my entire pedalboard by the main 120 volt cord before a show

I'm happy to hear Neural finally made a product for guys like me


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> It also definitely applies to performing musicians. Nothing like watching a guitar player scramble around the venue trying to find someone with a guitar they can put in their tuning.



Everytime I see something like that I tell to my bandmates: "See? That is why I bring two guitars".

My first serious tour taught me a lot of lessons the hardest way. Never had so much shit failing in one year. Rugged stuff into roadcases? Yes. Fancy stuff into gigbags? Nope.



Mathemagician said:


> “Buy two FM3’s/QC’s/5150’s” got it.


A hybrid amp/MultiFX rig with safety "straight to desk" patches gets your ass covered pretty nicely. Just remember that amp's footswitch is also part of the backup.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Emperoff said:


> This, so much this.
> 
> I stopped buying guitar plugins because developers don't give a shit about supporting them and pretty much never get updated (as that doesn't give them more money). Instead more and more products are released. So you end up with an unsupported and unsellable tool.
> 
> Now compare that to Fractal or Line6.



In fairness though, Neural has been really good about updating their stuff. New features and upgrades, but also maintaining compatibility with new MacOS for example.


----------



## Doug Castro

Flappydoodle said:


> In fairness though, Neural has been really good about updating their stuff. New features and upgrades, but also maintaining compatibility with new MacOS for example.



Thanks! And don’t forget Apple silicon.


----------



## Emperoff

Flappydoodle said:


> In fairness though, Neural has been really good about updating their stuff. New features and upgrades, but also maintaining compatibility with new MacOS for example.



Maybe. But I don't like its business model with a new VST every three months with overlapping features instead of a full suite (as Helix, for example). They look like a Youtube-fueled cashgrab to me. I've had my share of it with other developers and I won't bite this time. 

I understand they want to make money. They just won't get mine .


----------



## broangiel

Doug Castro said:


> Thanks! And don’t forget Apple silicon.


About that.... I can't get Fortin Cali standalone to work on my M1 Mini. Plini and Nolly work fine though. I should probably open a ticket, but the context was there.


----------



## Doug Castro

broangiel said:


> About that.... I can't get Fortin Cali standalone to work on my M1 Mini. Plini and Nolly work fine though. I should probably open a ticket, but the context was there.



That’s interesting. We’ve had an Apple Silicon machine for a few months now. Feel free to contact support to get it sorted. 

Thanks for the report!
Doug.


----------



## broangiel

Just posted over FB:


Work on Quad Cortex has continued throughout the holiday season, and we wanted to provide a quick update to inform you of recent changes.
The Neural Capture process continues to be improved. We have optimised the consistency and reduced computational errors in the network training at the heart of Neural Capture. We will also be adding the following Captures:

Aguilar® AG700®
Aguilar® DB751®
Aguilar® Tone Hammer® 500
Fender® Hot Rod® Deluxe
Marshall® 2555 Silver Jubilee®
Marshall® JCM® 800 (2210)
Mesa/Boogie® Trem-O-Verb®
We have detected and solved USB audio glitches in some edge cases, specifically with some Macs running High Sierra.
We are continuing to test Presets and unusual virtual device block combinations.
Manufacturing is ongoing, including the changes we outlined in our last update. We encountered a slight delay caused by logistics and availability due to some vendors’ holidays.
As we whittle the remaining tasks down to the last few items, updates will be short and farther apart. Do not take this to imply progress has halted. Sometimes several days can pass before any significant changes have been made and successfully tested. This is to be expected at this stage of product development.
We hope you’ve had an enjoyable holiday, and we wish you the very happiest of new years.


----------



## Mathemagician

So the Sweetwater rep was absolutely lying about them “sitting in stock” then. I mean I think we all figured that ASAP. But this just confirms it. 

Fuck I’m glad I went with an FM3.


----------



## broangiel

Mathemagician said:


> So the Sweetwater rep was absolutely lying about them “sitting in stock” then. I mean I think we all figured that ASAP. But this just confirms it.
> 
> Fuck I’m glad I went with an FM3.


Yeah my SW rep also gave me a... more than hopeful estimate on timeline back around Thanksgiving.


----------



## ElRay

Mathemagician said:


> So the Sweetwater rep was absolutely lying ...


I think this says more about Sweetwater than Neural DSP. Considering how many calls I've received from them, I'm pretty sure they spent more calling me than they made from the initial sale.


----------



## Mathemagician

Oh yeah that was definitely the intent of my comment. We’re all trying to make a living. But lying to retain a sale is stupid. Because now I’m pissed and don’t want to direct business to them.


----------



## Meeotch

Sweetwater has a pretty good reputation but I'm not overly impressed with them. On black friday I decided to give them a chance considering I received a promotional email from them saying to call for deals. I had my eye on some Auralex acoustic treatment and they offered 6% off. 6! I said haha no thanks, first google search I found 10% off, done.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

So, I was following the nice conversations regarding QC on TGP .. Its been fun reading all the comments there.. But, I can't seem to access TGP today. Has anyone noticed this ?


----------



## X1X

6:25


----------



## laxu

Nik_Left_RG said:


> So, I was following the nice conversations regarding QC on TGP .. Its been fun reading all the comments there.. But, I can't seem to access TGP today. Has anyone noticed this ?


Servers seem to be down.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

laxu said:


> Servers seem to be down.


Thanks, so its not just me.. 



X1X said:


> ...
> 6:25


Not bad for just an unboxing vid. Ola always manages to sound the same regardless of gear.

I am quite interested in how it feels under the fingers and the harmonic overtones.. Sound wise, I am pretty sure they can get it to sound as good as the best modellers out there..


----------



## laxu

X1X said:


> 6:25




That sounds pretty huge considering he barely did any tweaking to it. Very promising.

I was interested to see the cab sim in action but I wonder why it only let you move the mic side to side there, considering the NDSP plugins let you move it all around the virtual speaker vertically and horizontally. Maybe non-final firmware thing? I hope the final one allows you to do more in that section because just moving it side to side for the position control is no better than just turning the knob for position. Being able to adjust both position and distance right with a single finger drag would be nice.


----------



## Kaura

laxu said:


> That sounds pretty huge considering he barely did any tweaking to it. Very promising.
> 
> I was interested to see the cab sim in action but I wonder why it only let you move the mic side to side there, considering the NDSP plugins let you move it all around the virtual speaker vertically and horizontally. Maybe non-final firmware thing? I hope the final one allows you to do more in that section because just moving it side to side for the position control is no better than just turning the knob for position. Being able to adjust both position and distance right with a single finger drag would be nice.



It's very fast but at 10:16-10:17 you can see him pulling the dot down to adjust the distance, so it is possible.


----------



## Doug Castro

laxu said:


> That sounds pretty huge considering he barely did any tweaking to it. Very promising.
> 
> I was interested to see the cab sim in action but I wonder why it only let you move the mic side to side there, considering the NDSP plugins let you move it all around the virtual speaker vertically and horizontally. Maybe non-final firmware thing? I hope the final one allows you to do more in that section because just moving it side to side for the position control is no better than just turning the knob for position. Being able to adjust both position and distance right with a single finger drag would be nice.



In QC, just like with our plugins, can move the virtual microphone in both X (position), and Y (distance) axes.


----------



## Randy

X1X said:


> 6:25




Mic position adjust thing is super cool. I mean, we've seen it and heard about it for a while but it's especially nice seeing/hearing it in practice. Can't say much else from just camera mic tweaking, but it exists and it's useable so that looks like the two biggest hurdles out of the way.


----------



## Elric

GunpointMetal said:


> It's so weird because in the real world I've probably only seen two pedalboards ever without at least one EXP/Wah/Volume pedal, and almost all of them have at least one of those pedals shifted all the way to right side of the board. While I (sort of) understand the idea of being able to reposition it, I still think any floor pedal should at least come with one and the appropriate cables. To me its like a buying a car but having to pay extra if you want to use it to make a left turn.


I already have something like six external EXP pedals. Literally all of these “doesn’t have an EXP pedal” MFX devices has one or two EXP pedal inputs I can use and arrange at will. Of all the boxes, switches, MIDI boards I have owned in 30+ years EXP pedals are easily the least reliable over time (IMHO) and I have had at least two MFX with an integrated EXP have the EXP go bad f*cking up the utility of the entire unit. I like being able to put one at each end of the switches... Anyway that is my rationale for preferring non-integrated pedals. I think integrated pedals are stupid unless they you are talking about a a Whammy or something where it is inherently part of the units’ primary function. They usually make the unit seem way overl gigantic, too.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Elric said:


> I think integrated pedals are stupid unless they you are talking about a a Whammy or something where it is inherently part of the units’ primary function.


 I consider volume/pitch/wah a primary function of a MFX.


----------



## Elric

GunpointMetal said:


> I consider volume/pitch/wah a primary function of a MFX.


I consider an EXP input required on an MFX for that very reason, but see it as 'sufficient' though, because as I noted, I have seen the built-ins go bad as they are easily the highest wear piece of that system as they are constantly being moved and they are position sensing which requires more accuracy than an on/off toggle. 

With a broke/junked EXP pedal your entire MFX is likely going to have to be replaced if the pedal goes bad out of warranty and, again, IME, barring say, internal batteries, which are a thing of the past with modern flash memory, it was always either the EXP pedal or the internal battery requiring opening up/fixing/sending back or trashing an old MFX. 

Anyway, this is personal preference... so no worries if you like internal EXPs; not trying to sell anyone anything...I have probably ranted enough.  

So, as a Neural QC pre-order customer, I like the external EXP pedal idea and I have two sitting here patiently waiting for the QC release. 

Ironically, I am a bit reversed on the power supply... I generally am not a huge fan of power bricks... I might use the QC on a board, though, and if the power requirements are lighter than some other MFX it *might* be a feature for that use...

I don't consider either of these issues (whether an EXP is built in or not and whether the PSU is a brick or not) to be deal breakers, though, if the device is killer. Which I am really hopeful that the base functionality will be on this one.


----------



## GunpointMetal

External EXP is fine, it should just come with one and the appropriate cable at that price point, since it undoubtedly has functions that require one.


----------



## MetalDaze

Just watched the Ola video. Fingers crossed that the preorder perk isn’t a face mask.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Lol. Remember when this was supposed to come out.


----------



## Doug Castro

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol. Remember when this was supposed to come out.



September.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Doug Castro said:


> September.



Which one?


----------



## Doug Castro

MaxOfMetal said:


> Which one?



The original release date was September 2020.


----------



## FTB

diagrammatiks said:


> Lol. Remember when this was supposed to come out.



You might be forgetting to consider how covid has affected the real world in truly gigantic ways. I'm surprised anything got done in 2020.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Doug,
Let me try this one more time. Has any consideration/functionality been given towards running the QC through a real amp’s FX loop?


----------



## Doug Castro

Deadpool_25 said:


> Doug,
> Let me try this one more time. Has any consideration/functionality been given towards running the QC through a real amp’s FX loop?



Of course. Even scenarios like 4CM have been thoroughly tested.


----------



## Flappydoodle

FTB said:


> You might be forgetting to consider how covid has affected the real world in truly gigantic ways. I'm surprised anything got done in 2020.



Seriously. If this thing really does arrive in March, I don't think anybody could really be upset about a 6 month delay, all circumstances considered.


----------



## MrWulf

Planning on buying a Revv Generator mk3. But if the QC is as good as advertise, i may throw my money to Doug instead haha

@Doug Castro pray tell, what scenario would be best? Running 4CM into an amp into a cab? Or running to a tube power amp (Synergy 50, Fryette or other power amp) into a cab, or a solid state power amp into an FRFR?


----------



## Doug Castro

MrWulf said:


> Planning on buying a Revv Generator mk3. But if the QC is as good as advertise, i may throw my money to Doug instead haha
> 
> @Doug Castro pray tell, what scenario would be best? Running 4CM into an amp into a cab? Or running to a tube power amp (Synergy 50, Fryette or other power amp) into a cab, or a solid state power amp into an FRFR?



The unit will work fine in either of them, so it's totally up to your setup, preferences, and needs.


----------



## MrWulf

Doug Castro said:


> The unit will work fine in either of them, so it's totally up to your setup, preferences, and needs.



Thank you for the swift response. One last question for now: does the amp sims in QC is a "whole" thing or you can disable the power amp section?

Really looking forward to it being release and see how it does!


----------



## Randy




----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

I'm psyched for QC. Hopefully this bug will fuck off sooner than latre and we can get back to real live band practices, performing, and recording.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Doug Castro said:


> Of course. Even scenarios like 4CM have been thoroughly tested.



Thank you for the answer. So there’s some tweakability for the power amp modeling settings then?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Randy said:


>




6:45 in and it does sound pretty good from what I can tell. In fairness I am listening through the speakers on my iPhone lol


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

Deadpool_25 said:


> 6:45 in and it does sound pretty good from what I can tell. In fairness I am listening through the speakers on my iPhone lol



I viewed it too, but unfortunately doesn't seem to rep too well. He wasn't tweaking or exemplifing anything that any other current modeler wouldn't do out of the box as well. I will note that he suggests that its UI was nearly the same as the Helix...the vid just doesn't seem to provide any good insight. I understand that he was just messing around and hadn't had much experience with it yet, plus the NDA which would be prohibitive.


----------



## slapnutz

Hey guys, apologies if this has been explained already but I did try my best nagviating the 53 odd pages so far.

One concern I have with the QC is if after release, will certain updates/packs/etc potentially come at an extra cost?
I noticed the prices of some of the plugins and with the advanced nature of the QC regarding online connectivity, I was wonder if in the future, users might need to purchase say some new pack from xyz guitarist. Kinda like paid DLC but for the QC 'amp/fx/tone packs'.

Or should I rest my concerns as these will always be free maybe?

Just wouldn't be that keen to spend $$$ on an expensive unit only to then have to pay more later on again and again. Cheers!


----------



## broangiel

slapnutz said:


> Hey guys, apologies if this has been explained already but I did try my best nagviating the 53 odd pages so far.
> 
> One concern I have with the QC is if after release, will certain updates/packs/etc potentially come at an extra cost?
> I noticed the prices of some of the plugins and with the advanced nature of the QC regarding online connectivity, I was wonder if in the future, users might need to purchase say some new pack from xyz guitarist. Kinda like paid DLC but for the QC 'amp/fx/tone packs'.
> 
> Or should I rest my concerns as these will always be free maybe?
> 
> Just wouldn't be that keen to spend $$$ on an expensive unit only to then have to pay more later on again and again. Cheers!


NDSP insists all first party content and updates will be free.


----------



## sleewell

When will this be for sale?


----------



## broangiel

sleewell said:


> When will this be for sale?


I don’t even think NDSP knows


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

broangiel said:


> I don’t even think NDSP knows



Already came out...limited edition.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

...waiting for the QC reissue.


----------



## laxu

sleewell said:


> When will this be for sale?


You can preorder it already and at least Thomann estimates (based on timelines given to them by NeuralDSP) that it will ship in late February.


----------



## Elric

Doug Castro said:


> The unit will work fine in either of them, so it's totally up to your setup, preferences, and needs.


I am also planning to use mine in 4CM with an amp and will sometimes want to use the QC as a preamp:
Can power amp simulation be disabled on the amp models? Are there any 'deep parameters' for amps (in other words things the user can adjust that are not dials or switches on the amp)? 

I know the Cabs can be left out of the signal chain to remove the cab, but I don't think there is a global item like the Axe has that can unilaterally "turn off" all cabs? I have found that super useful with the Axe. Hopefully if it is not a 'day 1' feature it is something that could be added to a global menu...

Also, IIRC, the QC cannot disable a power amp or cab in the profile, right? I think you would have to shoot three profiles to open up all the typical 4CM possibilites:

1. Preamp out (or FX Send): no power amp, no cab
2. Power Loaded Amp Out : nocab
3. Full chain: power amp, cab. mic all in singnal.

I know Kemper came up with a new profile type at some point that would allow it off and on later. So hopefully that is something could be explored after the device is out for a while. 

In addition to 4CM, I also do the "reverse": use a modeler to simulate a power amp and cab for a tube preamp. In that case it would be cool to turn the preamp off in the amp model. I know you are going to include some power amp only profiles which should cover this base. But... It would be cool if the component models could do this or if there was like a power amp only amp model with presence/depth and changeable tube type, class topology, etc. Like say, a Mesa 2:90 model or something.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

Does anyone have any updated info? I certainly can't be the only dork that's jonesing for that tracking number to pop up in my email! I'm literally in-limbo for the past few weeks since my friend decided it was time for me to return his modeling system.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

FYI...The QC manual just started to drop.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Cant find it on their website..


----------



## broangiel

Nik_Left_RG said:


> Cant find it on their website..


They literally released the cover and they’re acting like they’re getting ready to drop the biggest news of the decade. It’s a little too self-indulgent for my blood.


----------



## broangiel

Now the full manual is up and we can return to our normally scheduled programming of waiting for the QC to finally start shipping.


----------



## MetalDaze

https://downloads.neuraldsp.com/file/quad-cortex/Quad%20Cortex%20User%20Manual%201_0_0.pdf


----------



## ramses

MetalDaze said:


> https://downloads.neuraldsp.com/file/quad-cortex/Quad%20Cortex%20User%20Manual%201_0_0.pdf



Interesting:




> F.A.Q.
> 
> Can I load Neural DSP plugins on my Quad Cortex unit?
> 
> You are able to log in to your Neural DSP account on your Quad Cortex. Doing so will give it access to your account billing history and make the plugins you have purchased available.This feature will be available through a free update after launch.


----------



## Deadpool_25

ramses said:


> Interesting:



So the actual answer there is: Not yet.


----------



## I play music

ramses said:


> Interesting:


Hihihihihi so much to all the free updates
Want the sounds of the plugins ? Buy them extra


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I play music said:


> Hihihihihi so much to all the free updates
> Want the sounds of the plugins ? Buy them extra


tbf that was what they've said since they announced the qc. They were never going to cannibalize their plugin sales.


----------



## I play music

KnightBrolaire said:


> tbf that was what they've said since they announced the qc.


o.k. was not aware
have no qc on order and doesn't look like I will


----------



## MetalDaze

KnightBrolaire said:


> tbf that was what they've said since they announced the qc. They were never going to cannibalize their plugin sales.



Agreed and that never bothered me. If you own a plugin, the QC becomes a way to use it without a laptop.

if you don’t own a plugin, then use the amp models or captures.

Edit: 4CM is in the manual.


----------



## Randy

Deadpool_25 said:


> So the actual answer there is: Not yet.



Cyberpunk confirmed


----------



## Emperoff

If you buy a Helix, you don't get Helix Native for free so why should they give their plugins for free?

But now that I mention, considering Helix Native is 1/4 the price for Helix owners Neural should really offer them at a much lower price for QC owners.


----------



## Masoo2

Emperoff said:


> If you buy a Helix, you don't get Helix Native for free so why should they give their plugins for free?
> 
> But now that I mention, considering Helix Native is 1/4 the price for Helix owners Neural should really offer them at a much lower price for QC owners.


tbf back in the day the POD X3/XT gave you a free corresponding POD Farm license when using the modeler as a hardware key (Platinum for X3, Standard for XT)


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> If you buy a Helix, you don't get Helix Native for free so why should they give their plugins for free?
> 
> But now that I mention, considering Helix Native is 1/4 the price for Helix owners Neural should really offer them at a much lower price for QC owners.



I agree offering NDSP plugins at a discounted price for QC owners would be a great thing. I got my Helix Native at the reduced price + Line6's 30% off deal so it was quite cheap.


----------



## Randy

Emperoff said:


> If you buy a Helix, you don't get Helix Native for free so why should they give their plugins for free?
> 
> But now that I mention, considering Helix Native is 1/4 the price for Helix owners Neural should really offer them at a much lower price for QC owners.



I don't think that's the issue, aren't we discussing whether or not the QC imports plugins you've already purchased on day one? How does the equate to asking for them to give something for free? It's a feature they advertised.


----------



## Emperoff

Randy said:


> I don't think that's the issue, aren't we discussing whether or not the QC imports plugins you've already purchased on day one? How does the equate to asking for them to give something for free? It's a feature they advertised.



They advertised free updates and new amp models, not giving for free their already released plugins. They never advertised that.


----------



## Randy

Emperoff said:


> They advertised free updates and new amp models, not giving for free their already released plugins. They never advertised that.



No, they advertised that if you bought their plugins that you could import them to the QC, that's what we've been discussing. Nobody said anything about free plugins.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

Randy said:


> No, they advertised that if you bought their plugins that you could import them to the QC, that's what we've been discussing. Nobody said anything about free plugins.



I asked NeuralDSP directly, and they told me that any of the Neural DSP plugins that i purchase(d) will be available to dwnld onto the Quad Cortex. I dunno if, say, i have a model of the Omega amp sim, if i'll have that available as a full model, or simply a capture of specific settings...but, i reckon we'll all find out soon enough when they begin shipping to the masses. I'm still excited, and i won't judge the system 'til i get one in my hands and use it for a bit.


----------



## technomancer

ResistentialAssultSquadron said:


> I asked NeuralDSP directly, and they told me that any of the Neural DSP plugins that i purchase(d) will be available to dwnld onto the Quad Cortex. I dunno if, say, i have a model of the Omega amp sim, if i'll have that available as a full model, or simply a capture of specific settings...but, i reckon we'll all find out soon enough when they begin shipping to the masses. I'm still excited, and i won't judge the system 'til i get one in my hands and use it for a bit.



Given they just said it won't be available at launch it will be sometime after it ships in an update before you find out.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

technomancer said:


> Given they just said it won't be available at launch it will be sometime after it ships in an update before you find out.



The release of the manual was nice, considerate. The capture feature looks straight-forward, it's gonna be dope!


----------



## Deadpool_25

Just glancing through the manual as it applies to my own desired use case (into a real amp FX loop) I don’t see anything that makes me think the QC will be as usable as my FM3. At least in theory.

The QC manual (pg 51) shows running the QC straight into the input of a combo amp. In that section it specifically mentions turning off the cab block. What? So the suggested setup there is to run the amp model into the front of a real amp? I’m not saying it wouldn’t work but...ehhhh

The 4CM section mentions disabling the amp model. I kinda get why, but one of the cool things about 4CM with amp modelers is the ability to use either your real amp’s preamp, or the modeler’s. That should certainly be doable here even though it doesn’t seem to be discussed.

The biggest thing though is, as I suspected, there’s no mention of turning off or adjusting power amp modeling separately at all. Both my Invective and BE-100D have super transparent loops so it might not even have been an issue. IDK.

There are two things I really like about the QC that are lacking in the FM3: a great UI and the ability to run more than one amp model at a time. Wait, make that three things. I also like that it has more footswitches.


----------



## MetalDaze

I'm in the same boat as you. My primary intent is to use the QC into a Fryette power amp into 2 guitar cabs.

While the manual says this is a supported configuration, it also warns of potentially unwanted power amp coloration of the sound. I think it is fair to say that there is no way of turning off the power amp modeling in the launch feature set. Hopefully, enough people ask for it in an update.

The manual also talks about how Neural Capture is the "flagship feature", which can be interpreted as, "this is how we think it performs the best". It makes sense then that a few amp models dropped off the launch feature list and were replaced by captures.

That made me wonder about the regular Neural plugins. Are those models or are they captures? I don't own any, but I'm getting the feeling they are captures and they will have the same power amp disabling problem if run on the QC.

How does Kemper deal with that? If I run a Kemper profile through a tube power amp does it produce unexpected results?


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> Just glancing through the manual as it applies to my own desired use case (into a real amp FX loop) I don’t see anything that makes me think the QC will be as usable as my FM3. At least in theory.
> 
> The QC manual (pg 51) shows running the QC straight into the input of a combo amp. In that section it specifically mentions turning off the cab block. What? So the suggested setup there is to run the amp model into the front of a real amp? I’m not saying it wouldn’t work but...ehhhh
> 
> The 4CM section mentions disabling the amp model. I kinda get why, but one of the cool things about 4CM with amp modelers is the ability to use either your real amp’s preamp, or the modeler’s. That should certainly be doable here even though it doesn’t seem to be discussed.
> 
> The biggest thing though is, as I suspected, there’s no mention of turning off or adjusting power amp modeling separately at all. Both my Invective and BE-100D have super transparent loops so it might not even have been an issue. IDK.
> 
> There are two things I really like about the QC that are lacking in the FM3: a great UI and the ability to run more than one amp model at a time. Wait, make that three things. I also like that it has more footswitches.



Yeah not being able to turn off poweramp modeling is an unfortunate omission and I hope they add that in as a firmware update. I would also like to see controls for adjusting sag like on the Helix as I find that useful for fine tuning the response. But realistically, running the full amp model into a clean poweramp sounds and feels perfectly fine so it's not some dealbreaker issue. 

I am kind of in the same boat as you, except I use a Helix Floor which apart from the touchscreen UI and compact size is very much the same thing. I am not really looking to replace the Helix with the QC at this point.


----------



## laxu

MetalDaze said:


> The manual also talks about how Neural Capture is the "flagship feature", which can be interpreted as, "this is how we think it performs the best". It makes sense then that a few amp models dropped off the launch feature list and were replaced by captures.
> 
> That made me wonder about the regular Neural plugins. Are those models or are they captures? I don't own any, but I'm getting the feeling they are captures and they will have the same power amp disabling problem if run on the QC.



The amp models were dropped most likely because they could not get them to work as expected for launch. Replacing them with captures is a fast way to give users those amps to play with. The difference with NDSP amp sims vs captures will be their adjustability and accuracy while doing so. While the capture block offers gain, volume, EQ like the amp sims, their behavior will deviate from how the real amp behaves when you adjust those, just like the Kemper. At the moment there is no way to capture how each knob on an amp behaves as you will get into thousands of variations to capture even with a simple amp. So I would expect that NDSP plugins are amp sims.

There are some interviews of Line6's amp modeling process on Sweetwater's channel and they tell it can take anywhere from a month to several months to properly measure and model an amp, increasingly so depending on the complexity of the amp or how interactive each of its components are which on the other hand can be more of an issue on very simple amps.


----------



## Drunkbag

damn


----------



## broangiel

Today the media embargo ends so we should FINALLY see some interesting content.


----------



## Frostbite

Drunkbag said:


> damn


Yup, sounds fucking great


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Pete thorn video also out later (6pm GMT, 1PM Eastern)


----------



## bronxct1

Ugh. I just got a Helix LT and I’m on the fence on whether or not to return it and just preorder a quad cortex and wait for it to come in.

really curious how the captures sound, especially the JP2C. I have a JP2C on order as well so it’s very tempting to get the cortex and do my own JP2C capture.


----------



## Emperoff

bronxct1 said:


> Ugh. I just got a Helix LT and I’m on the fence on whether or not to return it and just preorder a quad cortex and wait for it to come in.
> 
> really curious how the captures sound, especially the JP2C. I have a JP2C on order as well so it’s very tempting to get the cortex and do my own JP2C capture.



If you're interested in the QC, do it. Best thing about the Helix is that you can buy another one anytime you want. They're available everywhere.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

I just watched some new quad cortex vids on yt...it seems pretty badass, all that function in a small form factor.


----------



## narad

One thing I like about this round of videos: "includes paid promotion". Not sure how long that's been around but it's a welcome change.

Rabea's vid is the first to me to make it sound ~Helix level. I always kind of expect it to be roughly there given the plugin quality, but somehow it took like a year of leaky demos to show it!


----------



## Randy




----------



## I play music

narad said:


> One thing I like about this round of videos: "includes paid promotion". Not sure how long that's been around but it's a welcome change.


i thought that was Youtube finally enforcing European law where advertisement needs to be marked as such .. remember having heard couple of times how all those influencers on Youtube and Insta were basically breaking the law by hiding they got paid for "reviewing" products


----------



## bronxct1

I play music said:


> i thought that was Youtube finally enforcing European law where advertisement needs to be marked as such .. remember having heard couple of times how all those influencers on Youtube and Insta were basically breaking the law by hiding they got paid for "reviewing" products



This has been a feature on YouTube for a few years. It’s obviously clear when a company is doing a marketing push on YouTube but I doubt companies are actually paying for more than one video on a channel. It’s easier for them to send the units out like they would have to magazines in years past. Providing the product will get exposure and when something is really good there will be even more videos made about it then a one off sponsored video would have gotten them.

I do enjoy seeing Pete Thorn and Rabea demo this as while there’s some marketing going on here, it’s really giving a good look at the capabilities of the product in their own environment and not a situation where they’re shooting these demos at a studio only having used it a day.


----------



## Flappydoodle

So my basic impressions from watching the videos are:

User interface is cool. Looks pretty easy to do what you want

Effects seem really impressive. Reverbs, delays and modulation sound great. But also some really creative stuff in there. Lag free pitch shifting is also sweet. 

Amp modelling is good. Nothing has blown me away yet. Most of the demos have been very effects heavy. I want to see more straightforward kinda 5150+Mesa cab, JCM800+1960a etc sounds. 

Profiles/captures, I’m still not sure. Need to see some three-way comparisons against the Kemper. I saw Andertons make a long boring ass video about profiling a few pedals, and honestly they weren’t that close yet. 

The cloud sharing seems like a sweet feature, but I haven’t seen it implemented yet. And I really want to see it work seamlessly and without issues. For example, if anybody remembers cloud preset/amp match sharing in BIAS, you’d get issues (not working, or missing parts of the chain) when presets were made with different software versions, some presets would be crazy loud or way too quiet etc. 

Also, is it correct that the computer editing is not ready yet? I notice the reviews so far all using the interface on the QC only.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron

Flappydoodle said:


> So my basic impressions from watching the videos are:
> 
> User interface is cool. Looks pretty easy to do what you want
> 
> Effects seem really impressive. Reverbs, delays and modulation sound great. But also some really creative stuff in there. Lag free pitch shifting is also sweet.
> 
> Amp modelling is good. Nothing has blown me away yet. Most of the demos have been very effects heavy. I want to see more straightforward kinda 5150+Mesa cab, JCM800+1960a etc sounds.
> 
> Profiles/captures, I’m still not sure. Need to see some three-way comparisons against the Kemper. I saw Andertons make a long boring ass video about profiling a few pedals, and honestly they weren’t that close yet.
> 
> The cloud sharing seems like a sweet feature, but I haven’t seen it implemented yet. And I really want to see it work seamlessly and without issues. For example, if anybody remembers cloud preset/amp match sharing in BIAS, you’d get issues (not working, or missing parts of the chain) when presets were made with different software versions, some presets would be crazy loud or way too quiet etc.
> 
> Also, is it correct that the computer editing is not ready yet? I notice the reviews so far all using the interface on the QC only.



Yep, no c/software yet, only an app...but it was stated that the editing software was to come shortly after release. At least that's what was said in one of the newest demos. Yes, a very nice unit altogether but really nothing mind blowing. Aside from the interface and compactness of the quad cortex, it seems no better than a fractal iii rack. The capture seemed rather nice anyway.


----------



## Metropolis

To my ears QC capture sounds better than Kemper profile. Less static and harmonically more complex, low end sounds just right compared to the real amp.


----------



## Masoo2

Rabea's newest video sounds better than anything I've heard out of the QC but the high gain tones still sound nothing special, while the low and mid gain tones are easily achievable elsewhere. Still sounds nice yeah, but nothing that makes it scream "buy me now" over a Kemper or Axe FX/FM3. Especially considering FM3s are available for $1000.

Definitely waiting on more videos to come out comparing the capture feature to the Kempers though.

As much as I've liked how Kempers sound and feel, there is a certain low mid thing that I hear in 90% of presets for it. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's completely noticeable whenever I compare presets available on multiple platforms (Kemper, Axe FX, Helix, etc).

Without knowing much about the Kempers, I think it *may* be a result of direct vs studio profiles. It's a noticeable difference if you listen to these Lance Prenc preset comparisons:

https://soundcloud.com/prencaudiosamples/sets/kemper-party-pack-riff-1


----------



## Flappydoodle

Rabea’s video was pretty clearly biased in favour of the QC. Why would you not use the refine function of its available? It’s pretty clear that the high gain profile was lacking low end. The fairest comparison is where you look at the best tone achievable with each system. 

Also the QC does have a manual refine feature. Rabea even showed it during the Andertons video. You can tweak sounds afterwards with a basic 3 band EQ and gain knob. 

To my ears, the clean tone was better on Kemper, but the QC needed some more treble added. And the high gain tone obviously the QC was miles better, but the Kemper had been needlessly handicapped by not using the refine function. 

So, my overall conclusion is that QC capture is at least equal to Kemper profiling. We should hope so given that Kemper is 10 years old and doesn’t have neural network training etc. 

Now I really want to see my existing plugins being usable (and perhaps improved) on the QC.


----------



## laxu

Flappydoodle said:


> Rabea’s video was pretty clearly biased in favour of the QC. Why would you not use the refine function of its available? It’s pretty clear that the high gain profile was lacking low end. The fairest comparison is where you look at the best tone achievable with each system.
> 
> Also the QC does have a manual refine feature. Rabea even showed it during the Andertons video. You can tweak sounds afterwards with a basic 3 band EQ and gain knob.



He said that he feels refine can sometimes make profile sound worse so he did not use it. He said he will reupload the video and add a section with refine used. I expect it will sound largely the same it does now.

QC no longer has refine, it was a feature of older firmwares according to Doug Castro. They felt it wasn't needed with newer versions of the capture algorithms.


----------



## Flappydoodle

laxu said:


> He said that he feels refine can sometimes make profile sound worse so he did not use it. He said he will reupload the video and add a section with refine used. I expect it will sound largely the same it does now.
> 
> QC no longer has refine, it was a feature of older firmwares according to Doug Castro. They felt it wasn't needed with newer versions of the capture algorithms.



He didn’t mention sounding worse in the video AFAIK. He only said QC didn’t have refine so he’d keep it fair by not using it. But my point is that you should get the best possible tone from each unit using the tools it provides. 

Something must have gone wrong with the Kemper capture then. It was lacking so much low end, super obvious, and clearly far below the well-known capability of the Kemper.


----------



## technomancer

Flappydoodle said:


> He didn’t mention sounding worse in the video AFAIK. He only said QC didn’t have refine so he’d keep it fair by not using it. But my point is that you should get the best possible tone from each unit using the tools it provides.
> 
> Something must have gone wrong with the Kemper capture then. It was lacking so much low end, super obvious, and clearly far below the well-known capability of the Kemper.



It's almost as thought a paid promotion video favored the product being promoted... shocking


----------



## laxu

Flappydoodle said:


> He didn’t mention sounding worse in the video AFAIK. He only said QC didn’t have refine so he’d keep it fair by not using it. But my point is that you should get the best possible tone from each unit using the tools it provides.
> 
> Something must have gone wrong with the Kemper capture then. It was lacking so much low end, super obvious, and clearly far below the well-known capability of the Kemper.



He did mention it in a comment though, someone screen capped it on TGP. Since he's going to add a section with refine used to the video then reupload it we can soon see if it makes any significant difference. I expect it does not.


----------



## Randy

Lol, this is fucking stupid cult bullshit. 

Guy added on refine on one model and not the other, someone pointed it out and then he deleted the video. In comes a million excuses why it was there and why it doesn't make a difference ("actually makes the amp sound worse so we we removed that feature"), so now we're speculating on how much of a difference it doesn't make on a video that doesn't exist yet? Give me a break.


----------



## technomancer

Randy said:


> Lol, this is fucking stupid cult bullshit.
> 
> Guy added on refine on one model and not the other, someone pointed it out and then he deleted the video. In comes a million excuses why it was there and why it doesn't make a difference ("actually makes the amp sound worse so we we removed that feature"), so now we're speculating on how much of a difference it doesn't make on a video that doesn't exist yet? Give me a break.



It is freaking hilarious... or maybe astounding.. that people are still dumb enough to think that "comparison" videos from paid influencers are going to present an objective comparison to other products. They're good examples of how you can get the QC to sound, but everybody that has a QC right now is part of the marketing program.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

It sounded good, but pro demoers make everything sound pretty good. let my mongo ass get a hold of it and we'll see if it holds up lol


----------



## Flappydoodle

technomancer said:


> It's almost as thought a paid promotion video favored the product being promoted... shocking



Well yes, this was my exact point. Of course I'm well aware that it's paid promotion, lol

He deliberately made the competition sound worse, which is a scumbag move


----------



## Mathemagician

KnightBrolaire said:


> It sounded good, but pro demoers make everything sound pretty good. let my mongo ass get a hold of it and we'll see if it holds up lol



Gimme single track 5153 model through my headphones. Is it good or bad? Wtf is “multi tracking/EQ cut/overdrive pedal/compression”?


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

KnightBrolaire said:


> It sounded good, but pro demoers make everything sound pretty good. let my mongo ass get a hold of it and we'll see if it holds up lol



Same here ...

I'm interested in checking this out but will not even bother ordering until some real world experience starts to filter through. I like watching the influencer vids - they are great adverts and give you a good idea what it can do in a pro environment but most of them can make a fart in a can sound rich and creamy with great mids and a well controlled bottom end....


----------



## Slaeyer

Flappydoodle said:


> Profiles/captures, I’m still not sure. Need to see some three-way comparisons against the Kemper. I saw Andertons make a long boring ass video about profiling a few pedals, and honestly they weren’t that close yet.





Just stumbled upon this video here.
Haven't heard of this guy yet, but he does a nice comparison of real amp, kemper profile and Quad Cortex capture.
He really seems to be Kemper guy and shows some things reg. the Quad Cortex I haven't seen till now, e.g. the switching delay and so on. He also mentions the effects not being on par with the Kemper.

I'm quite interested in Rabea's video on the QC/Kemper comparison, as he promised to make a new one including the refinement of the Kemper's profle.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Slaeyer said:


> Just stumbled upon this video here.
> Haven't heard of this guy yet, but he does a nice comparison of real amp, kemper profile and Quad Cortex capture.
> He really seems to be Kemper guy and shows some things reg. the Quad Cortex I haven't seen till now, e.g. the switching delay and so on. He also mentions the effects not being on par with the Kemper.
> 
> I'm quite interested in Rabea's video on the QC/Kemper comparison, as he promised to make a new one including the refinement of the Kemper's profle.



hmm interesting. The kemper seemed to struggle with mimicking the high end of the matchless and felt "messier". QC basically nailed the vibe of the matchless imo. I'm just curious if they've dealt with the main issue the kemper had in my experience, which was how the eq settings on the modeler affect the profile. The kemper was super destructive if you adjusted the eq more than 1 or 2 positions. Plus there's the whole issue of how it will deal with amps like Mesa Marks which don't have the typical tonestack design/settings.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Slaeyer said:


> Just stumbled upon this video here.
> Haven't heard of this guy yet, but he does a nice comparison of real amp, kemper profile and Quad Cortex capture.
> He really seems to be Kemper guy and shows some things reg. the Quad Cortex I haven't seen till now, e.g. the switching delay and so on. He also mentions the effects not being on par with the Kemper.
> 
> I'm quite interested in Rabea's video on the QC/Kemper comparison, as he promised to make a new one including the refinement of the Kemper's profle.




That was a great review. Neural should PAY him for those amazing tips he gave then about the UI. He's totally right about the output lock, the swiping up and down to add/remove blocks etc. I can only presume those will be added in future updates, since they're basic quality-of-life improvements.

It's funny because to my (bad) ears the Kemper sounded like the better tone each time, but he said the QC won. What he called top end sparkle, I was thinking the QC was a bit too bright. Again, I guess a lot of it is to do with feel, not just what you hear in the recording.

I will probably buy one later to play with. It does look like a lot of fun to play around with. I definitely don't "need" it, but guitar is a hobby and interest.

What I'm curious is how cloud sharing will work alongside commercial captures. Nobody has shown that cloud sharing feature in detail yet. Presumably there will be a market for commercial amp captures, and for the market to work they won't be able to have full sharing of profiles. But then you get into a weird situation where what if I have 2x QCs or I want to send a preset to a friend but it uses a commercial capture etc. I'd love to see how that process will work. I remember with the BIAS products where cloud sharing sounded and started awesome, but over time it became shitty because presets ended up all incompatible with different versions etc.


----------



## RevDrucifer

I’ve never seen a product take on a cult status like this one. Someone actually said on TGP yesterday, “I’m getting this unit because of the features and the reliability.”........what reliability? It’s not even fucking out yet!

My biggest gripe with it is after over a year of mega-hype, it doesn’t seem like this will be even on par with the competition upon release, unless they update the effects and get auto-engage resolved before they release it (Doug has already said auto-engage will come in a future update). For the amount of hot air that’s been blown around, this thing should at LEAST be equal to a FM3 or a Kemper. Rhett and Paul both said the effects weren’t quite there yet.

And that gap between presets....I’ll have to see how bad the gap was between scenes. I know the sycophants on TGP are claiming there is no gap between scenes but I haven’t spotted an instance of a scene change in the vids yet.

I’m also REALLY curious about those encoders. I’ve had to replace switches on my GCPro after gigging in the New England winter. Being that the QC is using them both for footswitches and encoders, I can’t imagine that salt and dirt is going to be too easy on them. A robot pressing the footswitch 250,000x will not compete with dirt and salt.

Questioning any of this stuff will get the pitchforks over on TGP. Someone questioned the processing power and everyone just told him not to worry about it, you don’t need to know what’s going on under the hood, etc. My reply to that was there’d be a lot of people still playing Vertex wah’s if no one ever questioned what was going on under the hood.


----------



## RevDrucifer

And not being able to delete factory presets?! GTFO. I hate the fact that I can’t delete apps from my iPhone, never mind an effects processor. I’ve deleted 90% of them out of my AxeFX III because they’re of zero use to me.


----------



## broangiel

RevDrucifer said:


> And not being able to delete factory presets?! GTFO. I hate the fact that I can’t delete apps from my iPhone, never mind an effects processor. I’ve deleted 90% of them out of my AxeFX III because they’re of zero use to me.


It’s a shame that the TGP thread is the most active QC thread I’ve seen. It is insanely crazy over there, to the point where the only two Youtubers to give remotely objective and critical feedback (Rhett and Paul) had to log onto TGP to apologize and explain themselves. It’s unreal. I’d love to discuss the QC, but it’s an exercise in frustration doing it over there.


----------



## laxu

KnightBrolaire said:


> hmm interesting. The kemper seemed to struggle with mimicking the high end of the matchless and felt "messier". QC basically nailed the vibe of the matchless imo. I'm just curious if they've dealt with the main issue the kemper had in my experience, which was how the eq settings on the modeler affect the profile. The kemper was super destructive if you adjusted the eq more than 1 or 2 positions. Plus there's the whole issue of how it will deal with amps like Mesa Marks which don't have the typical tonestack design/settings.



He did not mention that he was using beta firmware in this video. Switching issues according to NDSP are already solved but like all modelers, scenes and stomps will be immediate while preset switching will have a slight delay.

It's a good video with some very sensible improvement ideas that I also would like to see. Let's hope NDSP takes them to heart and implements in the future.

When it comes to Mesa Marks and captures, the EQ knobs on the capture are similar post-EQ as using the graphic EQ sliders on the amp. Hell, you could profile the amp without graphic EQ and then throw a graphic EQ block after it and see where that gets you. But until they add an actual amp model of some Mesa Mark you won't have access to the same kind of tone shaping. That's the drawback of captures.

When I get my QC I plan to capture my Bogner and Victory amps and expect to do multiple captures of each for several sounds I like. Those captures may not work for everyone.


----------



## laxu

RevDrucifer said:


> And not being able to delete factory presets?! GTFO. I hate the fact that I can’t delete apps from my iPhone, never mind an effects processor. I’ve deleted 90% of them out of my AxeFX III because they’re of zero use to me.



The way the presets are organized into folders you never have to see factory presets if you don't want to. It's a non-issue but they should make it so that trying to save a modified factory preset will save it as a new preset in user library.


----------



## laxu

RevDrucifer said:


> My biggest gripe with it is after over a year of mega-hype, it doesn’t seem like this will be even on par with the competition upon release, unless they update the effects and get auto-engage resolved before they release it (Doug has already said auto-engage will come in a future update). For the amount of hot air that’s been blown around, this thing should at LEAST be equal to a FM3 or a Kemper. Rhett and Paul both said the effects weren’t quite there yet.



Mega-hype? NeuralDSP themselves have put out way too little content of the unit so people have resorted to digging through guitarists' Instagram content just to see a glimpse of how it performs. Pretty much the end of last month was the first time we saw significant videos of the thing in action, with more coming this month. All hype is pretty much made by users interested in the unit.

It's a tough act to try to match Line6 or Fractal who have been working on their devices for years now. So no, the QC won't have feature parity on release, maybe not even after the first year. I don't see that as a problem as the others have gone through the exact same process. All the basics are there and just because it does not have 200+ amp models does not mean you can't get a lot of tones that will work for you.

Neither Rhett or Paul described exactly what they expect to hear in the fx department. I would have liked some comparison to Kemper for example to hear what they think is missing. To me many of the videos have sounded perfectly fine when it comes to fx but then again I am not super picky about them.


----------



## narad

laxu said:


> Mega-hype? NeuralDSP themselves have put out way too little content of the unit so people have resorted to digging through guitarists' Instagram content just to see a glimpse of how it performs. Pretty much the end of last month was the first time we saw significant videos of the thing in action, with more coming this month. All hype is pretty much made by users interested in the unit.



From the minute the unit was debuted more than a year before its ultimate release, leaking first in silhouetted advertisements, then combined with pseudosciencey hype phrases like "biomimetic", I think the company can eat all the blame for that. Anyway, hype, marketing, just two sides of the same coin. It's like any virtue in excess becomes a vice.

The big shocker to me is just that the hype train happened on TGP and not on SSO. They've always been more hype-y over there, but more for like... pickups wound using the original machines from kalamazoo. This seems out of character.


----------



## laxu

narad said:


> From the minute the unit was debuted more than a year before its ultimate release, leaking first in silhouetted advertisements, then combined with pseudosciencey hype phrases like "biomimetic", I think the company can eat all the blame for that. Anyway, hype, marketing, just two sides of the same coin. It's like any virtue in excess becomes a vice.
> 
> The big shocker to me is just that the hype train happened on TGP and not on SSO. They've always been more hype-y over there, but more for like... pickups wound using the original machines from kalamazoo. This seems out of character.



The TGP digital modeling section is way closer to this forum. Same debates over which magic box sounds the best.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> From the minute the unit was debuted more than a year before its ultimate release, leaking first in silhouetted advertisements, then combined with pseudosciencey hype phrases like "biomimetic", I think the company can eat all the blame for that. Anyway, hype, marketing, just two sides of the same coin. It's like any virtue in excess becomes a vice.
> 
> The big shocker to me is just that the hype train happened on TGP and not on SSO. They've always been more hype-y over there, but more for like... pickups wound using the original machines from kalamazoo. This seems out of character.



nah. the digital section on tgp is like a walled off garden from corkville but it's big. the people that jumped on modelers over there did it early and hard.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> nah. the digital section on tgp is like a walled off garden from corkville but it's big. the people that jumped on modelers over there did it early and hard.



I mean, I was over there during my Axe I/Axe II days and it was a deadzone. Even with ToneMerchants pushing the thing. A lot can change in 6 years I guess.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> I mean, I was over there during my Axe I/Axe II days and it was a deadzone. Even with ToneMerchants pushing the thing. A lot can change in 6 years I guess.



once the worship crow got on board...


----------



## RevDrucifer

narad said:


> From the minute the unit was debuted more than a year before its ultimate release, leaking first in silhouetted advertisements, then combined with pseudosciencey hype phrases like "biomimetic", I think the company can eat all the blame for that. Anyway, hype, marketing, just two sides of the same coin. It's like any virtue in excess becomes a vice.
> 
> The big shocker to me is just that the hype train happened on TGP and not on SSO. They've always been more hype-y over there, but more for like... pickups wound using the original machines from kalamazoo. This seems out of character.



Exactly. 

And I could have sworn that when it was first announced, they were toting it as the most powerful effects processor in the world, but now I see it says “the most powerful floor-based effects unit”. 

I explained this on TGP the other day, but the more buzz words or hype I see, the more doubtful I become. I work with a lot of vendors who promise me the world, brag about how great their company/product is and then don’t deliver when it’s time to do so. If you’re going to come at me with basic facts without the buzz words, I’ll take your word for it. 

Take the Nolly plug-in, for example, or whichever one they released with the pic of Nolly bent over several amps on a table, inspecting him like we’re supposed to believe he’s got an electrical engineering degree and just looking at a chassis can tell him everything going on with an amp. If they just had a picture of him behind a computer with a spec sheet and a bunch of tracks lined up in a DAW, I’d more likely to believe he was investigating the tonal qualities of amps while referring to the spec sheets....because he’s great with engineering/production and that’s his wheelhouse.


----------



## RevDrucifer

narad said:


> I mean, I was over there during my Axe I/Axe II days and it was a deadzone. Even with ToneMerchants pushing the thing. A lot can change in 6 years I guess.



That was my memory of it as well. I just started posting there recently due to downtime at work, but I remember when I lurked 10-15 years ago it was still nothin’ but tube amps and analog pedals....closest they were getting to digital stuff was a digital delay or a wireless. It was enough that I had no interest in interacting with anyone.


----------



## technomancer

RevDrucifer said:


> Take the Nolly plug-in, for example, or whichever one they released with the pic of Nolly bent over several amps on a table, inspecting him like we’re supposed to believe he’s got an electrical engineering degree and just looking at a chassis can tell him everything going on with an amp. If they just had a picture of him behind a computer with a spec sheet and a bunch of tracks lined up in a DAW, I’d more likely to believe he was investigating the tonal qualities of amps while referring to the spec sheets....because he’s great with engineering/production and that’s his wheelhouse.



To be fair, the amps modeled in that plugin are actual amps that Nolly modded... so yeah him working on the amps kind of made sense since that is what was modeled.


----------



## RevDrucifer

technomancer said:


> To be fair, the amps modeled in that plugin are actual amps that Nolly modded... so yeah him working on the amps kind of made sense since that is what was modeled.



Like he personally modded them, or had them modded? If he modded them than I totally take back my statement because that’d lend some truth that he knows what’s going on under the hood. Washing my feet in preparation....


----------



## Doug Castro

technomancer said:


> To be fair, the amps modeled in that plugin are actual amps that Nolly modded... so yeah him working on the amps kind of made sense since that is what was modeled.


Nolly got very into amplifier and cabinet design.
We always talk about it. I teach him electronics (he knows a ton though), he teaches me about speakers.

He mods his own amps, can read schematics and is has training in physics, so he understands the effect of altering component values.

The speed at which he learns is very impressive.


----------



## technomancer

RevDrucifer said:


> Like he personally modded them, or had them modded? If he modded them than I totally take back my statement because that’d lend some truth that he knows what’s going on under the hood. Washing my feet in preparation....



He personally modded them, see Doug's comment above mine.


----------



## Deadpool_25




----------



## broangiel

Deadpool_25 said:


>



I'm excited for his upcoming videos. I love DMM's play style. _Someone Else's Hat_ is one of my favorite instrumental pieces ever.


----------



## Deadpool_25

broangiel said:


> I'm excited for his upcoming videos. I love DMM's play style. _Someone Else's Hat_ is one of my favorite instrumental pieces ever.



Agreed. That whole album is amazing imo. And he’s a suuuper cool guy as well.


----------



## laxu

New version of Rabea's QC vs Kemper video with more amps!


----------



## Metropolis

Still sounds better than Kemper, doesn't have that mushy low end and static high frequencies.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

laxu said:


> New version of Rabea's QC vs Kemper video with more amps!



kemper sounded pretty comparable to the QC on the SLO clips and kraken clean, but otherwise sounded worse tbh imo. It always adds a bit more gain and a messy quality to the mids/highs imo.


----------



## broangiel

I don’t think I’ll personally be able to make a call on the Kemper vs QC thing until folks like MBritt and LiveReadySounds get ahold of one. 

On one hand, some folks are saying that Rabea, Rhett, Paul Davids, etc. aren’t great at Profiling, so it’s unfair to compare the two on the basis of these results. I want to hear someone who has the Kemper Community Seal of Approval compare the two to kill that argument. 

On the other hand, if NDSP has made a device that doesn’t require a wizard’s touch to get good results, that in and of itself is a victory and should accelerate the proliferation of good community content.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> I don’t think I’ll personally be able to make a call on the Kemper vs QC thing until folks like MBritt and LiveReadySounds get ahold of one.
> 
> On one hand, some folks are saying that Rabea, Rhett, Paul Davids, etc. aren’t great at Profiling, so it’s unfair to compare the two on the basis of these results. I want to hear someone who has the Kemper Community Seal of Approval compare the two to kill that argument.
> 
> On the other hand, if NDSP has made a device that doesn’t require a wizard’s touch to get good results, that in and of itself is a victory and should accelerate the proliferation of good community content.



I have a hard time believing that the best profile makers could do anything significantly different from what Rabea is doing, namely running the amp through the Kemper with a quality loadbox. I mean there isn't exactly all that much you can do besides set up your favorite amp settings, hit profile and then do the refine after it. Profiles capturing the cab as well would be a whole another deal just like with creating IRs.

If it requires some expert knowledge to make the Kemper shine then that by definition makes it the worse product if the QC can give great results that sound and feel more like the real amp even when you are not an experienced profile maker.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I just don't get why every new amp or modeler has to completely replace a previous piece of gear. Maybe this will do some stuff better, maybe some stuff worse. 

It can be really great without being a Kemper or AxeFx killer. 

This is the old Fractal vs. Kemper threads all over again.


----------



## laxu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just don't get why every new amp or modeler has to completely replace a previous piece of gear. Maybe this will do some stuff better, maybe some stuff worse.
> 
> It can be really great without being a Kemper or AxeFx killer.
> 
> This is the old Fractal vs. Kemper threads all over again.



Definitely. I already own a Helix Floor. I have owned an Axe-Fx 2. I have owned a Yamaha THR100HD. I have a Quad Cortex on order. I have never wanted a Kemper because the profiling was of no interest to me.

The things I expect the QC to have is nicer UI in a more compact form factor, which is pretty much what is missing from my big ass Helix which in turn makes me less likely to haul it around even if it works great as an fx/switching box for my tube amps. Meanwhile the Axe-Fx 2 got sold because the Helix was so much easier to work with from the hardware itself whereas Axe-Edit is better than HX Edit.

I don't get the insistence that the QC must beat whatever is considered the king of the hill or else it's not worth buying. All the top units on the market right now are fairly close when you run them through the same IRs. The differences are largely in feature sets, form factors and user experience. QC looks to cram in most of the best features found in the other units into the same box and that to me is a valuable thing in itself, even if it ends up not sounding better (which in itself is subjective).


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> Definitely. I already own a Helix Floor. I have owned an Axe-Fx 2. I have owned a Yamaha THR100HD. I have a Quad Cortex on order. I have never wanted a Kemper because the profiling was of no interest to me.
> 
> The things I expect the QC to have is nicer UI in a more compact form factor, which is pretty much what is missing from my big ass Helix which in turn makes me less likely to haul it around even if it works great as an fx/switching box for my tube amps. Meanwhile the Axe-Fx 2 got sold because the Helix was so much easier to work with from the hardware itself whereas Axe-Edit is better than HX Edit.
> 
> I don't get the insistence that the QC must beat whatever is considered the king of the hill or else it's not worth buying. All the top units on the market right now are fairly close when you run them through the same IRs. The differences are largely in feature sets, form factors and user experience. QC looks to cram in most of the best features found in the other units into the same box and that to me is a valuable thing in itself, even if it ends up not sounding better (which in itself is subjective).



Problem is QC is 600€ more expensive than the Axe FM3. That's why people expect it to be better, which is normal. Otherwise it ends up like the Boss GT series where they have similar prices to the competition with simulations of much worse quality.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> Problem is QC is 600€ more expensive than the Axe FM3. That's why people expect it to be better.



In Europe FM3 is 1266 euros vs Quad Cortex 1599 (Thomann using Finnish VAT 24%). So for 333 euros more you get massively more switching capability, better UI, profiling, cloud stuff, more powerful DSP etc.

Placing value basically only on the amp simulation is selling these things short.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> In Europe FM3 is 1266 euros vs Quad Cortex 1599 (Thomann using Finnish VAT 24%). So for 333 euros more you get massively more switching capability, better UI, profiling, cloud stuff, more powerful DSP etc.
> 
> Placing value basically only on the amp simulation is selling these things short.



So? In the US the FM3 still costs 999$. I can see the QC being more popular in Europe due to the availability issues of the Fractal, but G66 marking up the FM3 for 450$ more is not a product feature.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Emperoff said:


> Problem is QC is 600€ more expensive than the Axe FM3. That's why people expect it to be better, which is normal. Otherwise it ends up like the Boss GT series where they have similar prices to the competition with simulations of much worse quality.



Folks buy more expensive stuff that may or may not be "better" all the time.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> So? In the US the FM3 still costs 999$. I can see the QC being more popular in Europe due to the availability issues of the Fractal, but G66 marking up the FM3 for 450$ more is not a product feature.



Those prices include VAT. Without VAT they are 1063.87 for FM3 vs 1343.70 euros for Quad Cortex. So the price difference is only 279.83 euros. The fact that the QC is more expensive in the US is no different from Marshall being more expensive in the US and Mesa more expensive in Europe.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> Those prices include VAT. Without VAT they are 1063.87 for FM3 vs 1343.70 euros for Quad Cortex. So the price difference is only 279.83 euros. The fact that the QC is more expensive in the US is no different from Marshall being more expensive in the US and Mesa more expensive in Europe.



You're missing the point. The QC is *not* marked up in the US (in fact is cheaper than in Europe, being an EU product...). Meaning there is a straight 999$ to 1599$ comparison there.

The QC will probably be more appealing to EU customers than US customers (as the price difference is smaller and there is no waiting time). Same reason everyone uses Line6 in EU instead of Fractal.

I am really starting to agree with @RevDrucifer about the zealot behaviour people are showing towards a product not even out yet. I'm just talking numbers here.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> You're missing the point. The QC is *not* marked up in the US (in fact is cheaper than in Europe, being an EU product...). Meaning there is a straight 999$ to 1599$ comparison there.
> 
> The QC will probably be more appealing to EU customers than US customers (as the price difference is smaller and there is no waiting time). Same reason everyone uses Line6 in EU instead of Fractal.



Oh I see, did not know that. I was wondering why you said 600 euros in your post as that is not what is going on in the EU.

I'd still argue that the price difference does give you a good amount of features the FM3 does not have (profiling, switching, more simultaneous fx, touchscreen UI, Wifi updates/cloud), with rough software feature parity coming with subsequent updates eventually just like it has for Helix. While QC will never have the kind of advanced tweaking options Fractal offers, I'd argue most users don't touch those in the first place. I certainly don't miss them after moving from Axe-Fx 2 to Helix.

Line6 seems to be circling as well. Helix LT is currently $1199 at Sweetwater with Line6 G10S wireless bundled and that's a pretty sweet deal again for a unit that has more switching capability and DSP than the FM3.


----------



## Flappydoodle

So on the basis of the new Rabea video, it sounds like the QC is at least as good as the Kemper for profiling. And given that the Kemper has been good enough for god knows how many albums and live bands, then the QC should be good enough too.

Still, it's funny how many people are NOW saying Kemper has wooly low end, something in the mids etc., after a decade of saying it's indistinguishable from the real thing. In those Andertons videos, Rabea and Chappers couldn't even tell their own signature amps apart from the Kemper. Now, all of a sudden, the feel isn't quite right.

As for price, QC seems reasonable to me. It's a way fancier unit than the Kemper. There's no technology I can think of where a unit has no updates and stays the same price for 10 years. That's all on Kemper for not bringing out a 2.0 in a timely manner. Even vs Helix and FM3, the QC seems to have more capabilities. Moreover, it actually looks fun to use and play with.


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> I have a hard time believing that the best profile makers could do anything significantly different from what Rabea is doing, namely running the amp through the Kemper with a quality loadbox. I mean there isn't exactly all that much you can do besides set up your favorite amp settings, hit profile and then do the refine after it. Profiles capturing the cab as well would be a whole another deal just like with creating IRs.
> 
> If it requires some expert knowledge to make the Kemper shine then that by definition makes it the worse product if the QC can give great results that sound and feel more like the real amp even when you are not an experienced profile maker.


I don’t necessarily adhere to that idea either, but regardless, that’s what some folks have said. Maybes it’s a defensive statement, maybe there’s truth to it. I don’t know; I don’t own a Kemper.

It’s possible that the use of a load box is part of what makes Rabea “lesser” at Profiling. Again, I don’t know. 

I agree however, and said as much in my last post, that if Capturing is easier/more accessible than Profiling (which some of the Kemper community asserts it is by decrying the results we’ve seen so far) then that’s a point for NDSP.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> While QC will never have the kind of advanced tweaking options Fractal offers, I'd argue most users don't touch those in the first place.



I certainly wouldn't miss them. In fact, I really like that Neural DSP didn't include any of that shit in their plugins. It doesn't make much sense to me to allow the change of parameters that 99,9% of the users would never touch in real life (because they imply amp modding).


----------



## Deadpool_25

With all the comparisons to the Kemper, I’m starting to wonder just how well the modeled amps will be supported as opposed to the capture stuff. If the vast majority of users are using the capture side of things, Neural may end up focusing on that. With that said, the capture already looks to be working quite well so perhaps a non-issue.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I think people should just wait until the product is actually available before deciding to crown which is king of digital gear that ascends to its mighty throne of second place to actual amps.


----------



## broangiel

Deadpool_25 said:


> With all the comparisons to the Kemper, I’m starting to wonder just how well the modeled amps will be supported as opposed to the capture stuff. If the vast majority of users are using the capture side of things, Neural may end up focusing on that. With that said, the capture already looks to be working quite well so perhaps a non-issue.


Doug kinda just addressed this over on TGP:
_For the record, we haven’t asked anyone to do Capture vs Kemper on their videos.

I too would love to see as many comparisons against flagship modelers as well.

I think that due to the novelty factor of Capture people are super focused on that and how it stacks against Kemper.

Our amp models and effects are every bit as good as Capture, and I’d love for more in depth comparisons between these platforms by reviewers._


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> I certainly wouldn't miss them. In fact, I really like that Neural DSP didn't include any of that shit in their plugins. It doesn't make much sense to me to allow the change of parameters that 99,9% of the users would never touch in real life (because they imply amp modding).



I think Helix strikes a good balance, I've used at least the Sag control to adjust how an amp feels. So I don't mind a few advanced controls as long as I don't have to figure out what the hell B+ voltage etc affects as you should not need to understand the inner workings of an amp to set up your tone.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

From the videos I've seen the QC has a sharper high end and less mids which makes it seem a bit harsher and less 3d sounding than the kemper. 

That being said the Kemper pretty much always has something weird in the upper mids for me so I don't think either is better or worse. I think I'd rather use a good digital amp over a capture/profile any day of the week.

I think the Neural is pretty fairly priced in Europe for its feature set but I think the FM3 or even a Helix Stomp would be a better fit for people like me. Helix stomp for the cheaper option, FM3 being the boutique option.


----------



## I play music

Flappydoodle said:


> Still, it's funny how many people are NOW saying Kemper has wooly low end, something in the mids etc., after a decade of saying it's indistinguishable from the real thing. In those Andertons videos, Rabea and Chappers couldn't even tell their own signature amps apart from the Kemper. Now, all of a sudden, the feel isn't quite right.


This! So much this! Guys have lost all credibility for me


----------



## DIM3S0UL

To me it seems that the Kemper has the "already proven and tested" advantage over the QC. I lost count how many times i saw a Kemper on live shows (with 99% metal bands though).
Maybe i underestimate how many players will switch to the QC (because of easier operability ?), but i have a feeling that the Kemper wont be dethroned.

Also im very eager to see what Kemper will do about the whole situation. Maybe they cooking up a new version.


----------



## Randy

DIM3S0UL said:


> To me it seems that the Kemper has the "already proven and tested" advantage over the QC. I lost count how many times i saw a Kemper on live shows (with 99% metal bands though).
> Maybe i underestimate how many players will switch to the QC (because of easier operability ?), but i have a feeling that the Kemper wont be dethroned.
> 
> Also im very eager to see what Kemper will do about the whole situation. Maybe they cooking up a new version.



Considering Rabea found a marginal difference in one portion of the EQ spectrum between a brand new unit and one that's 10 years old, methinks we've hit the ceiling on how much processing power it takes to make a convincing amp sound. 

So to me, trying to fight that battle on tones alone is a kind of futile battle. At this point it's "what else does it do" and is that "what else" worth whatever price difference. Amp profiler is pretty much a race between two horse, QC and KPA. If you're just looking for an amp profiling box and you already own a Kemper, I don't see any reason to sell it at a loss to buy this thing. If you're a new customer, the QC is negligibly better/worse in profiling but has several more feature and it's $100 less new than the Stage. Advantage QC.

If you're talking modelers/multieffects in general, I think the FM3 and Helix line are more bang for the buck, especially in the realm of used stuff. Even Kemper is worth considering used, as they're selling for $1200 at the moment due to a selloff for the QC. 

By that measure, I don't think the QCs features (WiFi, touchscreen, profiling) are $600+ better than FM3 new or Helix line used and $400 better than a used KPA stage.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Just watched the updated Rabea video and I have to say the kemper sounded awful at higher gain profiles. 

There was no definition around the notes and it almost sounded like he had a wah on.


----------



## Emperoff

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Just watched the updated Rabea video and I have to say the kemper sounded awful at higher gain profiles.
> 
> There was no definition around the notes and it almost sounded like he had a wah on.



Rabea is a Neural DSP artist. Do you really believe it is a honest "no bullshit" comparison? I like Rabea but please don't be naive.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> Rabea is a Neural DSP artist. Do you really believe it is a honest "no bullshit" comparison? I like Rabea but please don't be naive.



I believe he was being sincere. I do think he honestly preferred the QC and was giving his honest opinions. I also understand that it’s possible he has subconscious bias that could color those opinions. For example, if he’s expecting the QC to sound better, then it probably will to him. I _seriously_ doubt he’s actively trying to make the Kemper sound worse. I think it’s just as bad to, without any actual evidence, accuse him of doing so as it would be for him to do it.

Pointing out that someone’s subconscious bias is influencing their opinions is one thing. Accusing them of actively lying is something else completely. One acknowledges that a person is human. The other assumes that human is a shitty one.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Emperoff said:


> Rabea is a Neural DSP artist. Do you really believe it is a honest "no bullshit" comparison? I like Rabea but please don't be naive.



I'm not naïve, I'm just saying that the kemper in that video sounded particularly bad. I think all kemper tones have this problem to an extent (been saying it since it launched, and its the reason why I've gotten some blind tests right) but this one took the cake.


----------



## USMarine75

Preaching the reliability of an unreleased product and crowning it king because of a few endorsement videos. 

- QCAnon


----------



## Randy

Ataraxia2320 said:


> I'm not naïve, I'm just saying that the kemper in that video sounded particularly bad. I think *all kemper tones* have this problem to an extent (been saying it since it launched, and its the reason why I've gotten some blind tests right) but this one took the cake.



The most widely used live and studio processor over the last 10 or so years? All of them?


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Considering Rabea found a marginal difference in one portion of the EQ spectrum between a brand new unit and one that's 10 years old, methinks we've hit the ceiling on how much processing power it takes to make a convincing amp sound.
> 
> So to me, trying to fight that battle on tones alone is a kind of futile battle. At this point it's "what else does it do" and is that "what else" worth whatever price difference.
> 
> If you're talking modelers/multieffects in general, I think the FM3 and Helix line are more bang for the buck, especially in the realm of used stuff. Even Kemper is worth considering used, as they're selling for $1200 at the moment due to a selloff for the QC.
> 
> By that measure, I don't think the QCs features (WiFi, touchscreen, profiling) are $600+ better than FM3 new or Helix line used and $400 better than a used KPA stage.



I've been saying it for a long time that you should not choose a high end modeler based on sound but features and usability. With the same IRs they are all good sounding. I was a longtime Fractal user because nothing else on the market was as good but now you have several really good sounding options.

In Europe the Kemper Stage, Helix Floor and Quad Cortex are around the same price, with FM3 being slightly cheaper. Helix LT is probably the real dark horse over here as it's the 999 euro price so it's kinda like FM3 in the US. With the FM3 you will most likely want to augment it with at least a cheap MIDI controller, no need for that with Helix LT. If you buy the Fractal FC6 you have spent about the same as a Quad Cortex, several hundred more in Europe. In that race I feel having everything the others do in one box at about the same price is worth the money.

For me the cost is not a huge factor. I am willing and able to pay for high end gear as long as we are not talking Axe-Fx 3 money.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> I believe he was being sincere. I do think he honestly preferred the QC and was giving his honest opinions. I also understand that it’s possible he has subconscious bias that could color those opinions. For example, if he’s expecting the QC to sound better, then it probably will to him. I _seriously_ doubt he’s actively trying to make the Kemper sound worse. I think it’s just as bad to, without any actual evidence, accuse him of doing so as it would be for him to do it.
> 
> Pointing out that someone’s subconscious bias is influencing their opinions is one thing. Accusing them of actively lying is something else completely. One acknowledges that a person is human. The other assumes that human is a shitty one.


Nope. Just a paid one.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Emperoff said:


> Nope. Just a paid one.



I totally agree. But I also don't think it's unreasonable to prefer a tech gadget which is 10 years newer

Put it this way. Kemper was announced at NAMM 2011, which is when the iPhone 4S came out. If QC didn't sound equal or better, there would be something very very wrong IMO. It should hardly be controversial to prefer something with so many technological advancements


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Shills gonna shill. 

By all means, watch the commercials, but don't base your whole viewpoint around them.


----------



## diagrammatiks

people that used to own like 15 tubes amps ->

there's no way I could own all 4 of these modelers. that's crazy.


----------



## Emperoff

Flappydoodle said:


> I totally agree. But I also don't think it's unreasonable to prefer a tech gadget which is 10 years newer
> 
> Put it this way. Kemper was announced at NAMM 2011, which is when the iPhone 4S came out. If QC didn't sound equal or better, there would be something very very wrong IMO. It should hardly be controversial to prefer something with so many technological advancements



Of course it's not unreasonable. What would be unreasonable would be having an endorser making paid advertisement videos where he prefers the product of the competition


----------



## Deadpool_25

diagrammatiks said:


> people that used to own like 15 tubes amps ->
> 
> there's no way I could own all 4 of these modelers. that's crazy.



You don’t recognize the difference?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Deadpool_25 said:


> You don’t recognize the difference?



A lot of real amps and effects cover similar ground, and the same can be said for digital gear. 

I have a Kemper, AxeFx, POD HD500, Helix Native, HX Stomp, and even an old PODXT Bean. 

Why? Because they suit different needs. I'll probably grab a QC at some point too, because maybe it'll do one or two things better. Maybe it'll just be cool to play with. 

The idea that you can have a room full of various amps and effects but only one modeling ecosystem is weird. Especially considering the price point of digital gear. It's dirt cheap compared to most pro/enthusiast guitar amps.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Deadpool_25 said:


> You don’t recognize the difference?



no?


----------



## Deadpool_25

diagrammatiks said:


> no?



Okay, fair enough. Amps seem to be collectible in a way that digital modeling gear does not seem to be (for most). I think that’s the biggest factor in a lot of cases. Amp collecting is kind of like car collecting I think. Digital modeling gear is more like collecting old computer gear—not unheard of or invalid, but seems more niche.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Amp collecting is kind of like car collecting I think. Digital modeling gear is more like collecting old computer gear—not unheard of or invalid, but seems more niche.



As a 90's rack lover, I have to agree on this.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I've owned the Kemper, Helix, AX8 and AF3. I've sold them all and gone back to amps and a pedals board...

However, I'll still get one of these when stock is normal and the hype has died down a bit. I've been looking for a decent desktop interface (BFP, UA Twin, Apogee Symphony etc) so may as well get this instead. It'll do a lot more than just an interface. Very curious on the capture function..

One thing I have learned is that I won't sell my amps....this will be something on the side I play with. I will not make that 'mistake' again lol


----------



## Randy

I'm hearing about delays again, what's the deal? Only thing I could find was on TGP but it's hard to filter because of all the ass-kissery in between. Is this about the Anderton's email saying dealers are getting them in March?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Randy said:


> I'm hearing about delays again, what's the deal? Only thing I could find was on TGP but it's hard to filter because of all the ass-kissery in between. Is this about the Anderton's email saying dealers are getting them in March?


sweetwater is claiming they'll have them in this month.


----------



## Randy

KnightBrolaire said:


> sweetwater is claiming they'll have them in this month.



TGP is REALLY hard to filter through because basically any potentially negative post (even if it's factual news) is followed by cascading "ITLL BE WORTH IT TRUST ME CANT WAIT" replies to one another.

But anyway, maybe I'm misreading it but I got the impression Andertons is now handling the product distro info including delivery to other dealers, so their projections should be most accurate. I know a couple guys on here said Sweetwater lied to them point blank, like telling them the warehouse was full of them ready to ship three months ago.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Randy said:


> The most widely used live and studio processor over the last 10 or so years? All of them?



Yes. You can eq it out and in a mix its not super noticeable but 9/10 times I would pick a different processor over the Kemper for the studio. There's something with the pick attack that's permanently whack to my ears, at least when it comes to high gain.


----------



## broangiel

Randy said:


> TGP is REALLY hard to filter through because basically any potentially negative post (even if it's factual news) is followed by cascading "ITLL BE WORTH IT TRUST ME CANT WAIT" replies to one another.
> 
> But anyway, maybe I'm misreading it but I got the impression Andertons is now handling the product distro info including delivery to other dealers, so their projections should be most accurate. I know a couple guys on here said Sweetwater lied to them point blank, like telling them the warehouse was full of them ready to ship three months ago.


Yeah, it's anyone's guess at this point. If you go by TGP, it's going to arrive anywhere between tomorrow and end of April, and even that might be optimistic. NDSP has made a point not to provide any guidance of their own, so some of these distributors are providing information that may be a guess (to maintain preorders?) or may be derived from official word from NDSP. No one knows, and it's super frustrating.

I remember back when NDSP announced the first delay, and the TGP folks were tripping over themselves to kiss the collective asses of everyone at NDSP - "this is such great, proactive communication; if only Fractal had done this with FM3--they should take note!" Now here we are.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> Yeah, it's anyone's guess at this point. If you go by TGP, it's going to arrive anywhere between tomorrow and end of April, and even that might be optimistic. NDSP has made a point not to provide any guidance of their own, so some of these distributors are providing information that may be a guess (to maintain preorders?) or may be derived from official word from NDSP. No one knows, and it's super frustrating.



Yeah it's a bit annoying having no concrete info even though I am in no hurry to get one as I have plenty of other gear to play with. NDSP say that it's just software bugs they are working on and then it probably is going to take some time to have everything packed and shipped all around the world. 

For my order Thomann has not issued any email about changes but my order says that the QC should ship in 4-5 weeks so I guess end or March, beginning of April it is.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Hellooooo impulse buy. 

I had a standard analog delay, but it didn't have built-in modulation. This'll cover that base.


----------



## broangiel

Here’s the latest, folks. 

Dear customers,

I write to you now with our current expectations regarding final development and shipping. This is where we expect to be if we continue at our current rate of progress. It is also the information that has been communicated with dealers so they have expectations regarding when they can ship their orders. 

We hope to begin taking payments for pre-orders in mid March 2021 for shipment by the end of March 2021. Shortly after, we also expect to ship stock to dealers for them to fulfil to their customers starting at the end of March 2021. 

As promised, customers who pre-ordered directly from us have the opportunity to pay for and receive their Quad Cortex first. However, as we are significantly delayed, the time between tier 1, tier 2, and dealer pre-order fulfilment could be significantly less than we originally intended. We will notify all direct pre-order customers in advance, starting with tier 1, with information regarding when we expect to take payment to ensure order fulfilment is as quick as possible.

As we test and resolve the few outstanding things on Quad Cortex, these dates are still subject to change. We are doing everything we can to ensure that won't happen.

We will keep our Quad Cortex FAQs page updated with our current expected shipping date, and we'll send a weekly email to keep you up to date with our progress, even if there's nothing new to report.

If you would like to discuss this further, feel free to email our support team at [email protected]

Thank you for sticking with us.

Kind regards,

Doug Castro - CEO


----------



## MUTANTOID

This thing gonna be the cyberpunk of guitar processors?


----------



## SamSam

MUTANTOID said:


> This thing gonna be the cyberpunk of guitar processors?



I am 100% certain that they are going to ship out a product that is (more) incomplete than promised.

I am also starting to get this feeling that the whole plugins running in the unit will never come to be. And I fucking hope not, it is one of the main reasons I preordered the damn thing.


----------



## Kaura

MUTANTOID said:


> This thing gonna be the cyberpunk of guitar processors?



Only if the end product ends up being a buggy, disappointing mess.


----------



## olejason

Regarding the plugins running on the hardware... are they using the same code base, porting it, or recreating it entirely? I haven't heard much about that particular feature lately but maybe I missed it.


----------



## SamSam

olejason said:


> Regarding the plugins running on the hardware... are they using the same code base, porting it, or recreating it entirely? I haven't heard much about that particular feature lately but maybe I missed it.



Nothing new beyond: It's a priority after launch.


----------



## ElRay

Does the Quad Cortex have something like the FM3's "Controllers", e.g. being able to use a pitch mapper to adjust the overdrive level, or an envelope follower to set the autowah?

Also, are there any previews/betas of the "QC Edit" equivalent to Fractal's "FM3 Edit"?


----------



## laxu

ElRay said:


> Does the Quad Cortex have something like the FM3's "Controllers", e.g. being able to use a pitch mapper to adjust the overdrive level, or an envelope follower to set the autowah?
> 
> Also, are there any previews/betas of the "QC Edit" equivalent to Fractal's "FM3 Edit"?



Not yet for both. I think they will have some tool for uploading IRs to the unit but a full desktop editor will come later.


----------



## laxu

olejason said:


> Regarding the plugins running on the hardware... are they using the same code base, porting it, or recreating it entirely? I haven't heard much about that particular feature lately but maybe I missed it.



They will probably have to be ported. If they didn't they would already be in the device.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Regarding QC vs Kemper. I assume that QC amps are based on the same tech like their plug-ins. Once I, together with my friend, compared the well known Mr. M. Britt’s profiles on His Kemper with my Nolly plug-in. We used the same Friedman FRFRish active speaker cab. I used cheap iRig HD interface.... We had to tweak a lot on Kemper to get good tones. On Nolly plug-in it was so simple and almost zero tweaking. Just good sound. So? They both could sound good. His over 1000€ Kemper and mine ~100€ plug-in through ~100€ interface. I know that Kemper has a lot more features, but all i want is good cleans, good high gain and good chorus/reverb/delay.
And yes, we are spoiled nowadays. We have so many possibilities and gear to achieve the sounds that were to die for 20 decades ago. For the fraction of the price.
What is funny for me? Every new piece of gear is suddenly making the old ones rebundand. That is insane. What sounds good, sounds good.


----------



## X1X

Good luck next time. Here's something to guide you to a proper direction:


----------



## GunpointMetal

Wolfhorsky said:


> Regarding QC vs Kemper. I assume that QC amps are based on the same tech like their plug-ins. Once I, together with my friend, compared the well known Mr. M. Britt’s profiles on His Kemper with my Nolly plug-in. We used the same Friedman FRFRish active speaker cab. I used cheap iRig HD interface.... We had to tweak a lot on Kemper to get good tones. On Nolly plug-in it was so simple and almost zero tweaking. Just good sound. So? They both could sound good. His over 1000€ Kemper and mine ~100€ plug-in through ~100€ interface. I know that Kemper has a lot more features, but all i want is good cleans, good high gain and good chorus/reverb/delay.
> And yes, we are spoiled nowadays. We have so many possibilities and gear to achieve the sounds that were to die for 20 decades ago. For the fraction of the price.
> What is funny for me? Every new piece of gear is suddenly making the old ones rebundand. That is insane. What sounds good, sounds good.


IME the Kemper sounds and feels great if the profile you have is 98% there to what you're going for. If you have to bump the EQ more than a few notches whatever goodness was baked into the profile starts to get f'd up. I much prefer modeling over Kemper profiling for this reason.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Wolfhorsky said:


> Regarding QC vs Kemper. I assume that QC amps are based on the same tech like their plug-ins. Once I, together with my friend, compared the well known Mr. M. Britt’s profiles on His Kemper with my Nolly plug-in. We used the same Friedman FRFRish active speaker cab. I used cheap iRig HD interface.... We had to tweak a lot on Kemper to get good tones. On Nolly plug-in it was so simple and almost zero tweaking. Just good sound. So? They both could sound good. His over 1000€ Kemper and mine ~100€ plug-in through ~100€ interface. I know that Kemper has a lot more features, but all i want is good cleans, good high gain and good chorus/reverb/delay.
> And yes, we are spoiled nowadays. We have so many possibilities and gear to achieve the sounds that were to die for 20 decades ago. For the fraction of the price.
> What is funny for me? Every new piece of gear is suddenly making the old ones rebundand. That is insane. What sounds good, sounds good.


I've played around with most of the modelers on the market and I think we've finally hit a point where even the bottom of the barrel modelers in terms of pricepoint (headrush/mooer) are damn good imo. I like that I can walk into a music store, grab a guitar I want to try and get get solid tones in at most a few minutes. That being said
with gear the limiting factor is almost always the end user. Gear that makes it easier for the average user to get good sounds easily will proliferate like mad, and I think the QC may become a big hit due to ease of use/UI simplicity (which is what I loved about the helix) and the capture function(which is why I loved the kemper). But we'll see once it gets into actual paying customer hands if it holds up or not. 

Personally I though the kemper was great, but it definitely had limitations. I tried thousands of profiles over the years I owned my kemper and they were really great so long as you didn't adjust them much (if at all), and if you used the profiled cab. Kemper just had so many limitations that became more glaring the more I used it (lack of editor for most of its lifespan, messy interface and workflow, very destructive eq, etc) . I spent more time tweaking than I did playing (with minimal payoff) and ended up using only a handful of tones anyways, so I went back to tube amps.


----------



## budda

Friendly reminder that Fractal has tone match.

Continue.


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Friendly reminder that Fractal has tone match.
> 
> Continue.



Unfortunately the FM3 does not.


----------



## nickgray

budda said:


> Friendly reminder that Fractal has tone match.



Is it biomemetic though? Didn't think so.


----------



## budda

SamSam said:


> Unfortunately the FM3 does not.



Buy the thing with the capabilities you need .



nickgray said:


> Is it biomemetic though? Didn't think so.



*Looks for marketing lingo*


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Watching the preorder date at Andertons drift further into the future - now end of March. 
TBH I can’t be arsed now, it’ll be ages till we see a review that is a review and not an advert.


----------



## c7spheres

I don't trust those button encoders. No sir, Foot button encoders and touch screens = scary.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> I don't trust those button encoders. No sir, Foot button encoders and touch screens = scary.



The logic of many pedal owners who use them as pedals.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

I agree, QC seems like an interesting piece of tech and I can't wait to hear 'real'/ unendorsed opinions in the future.

But, recently, having played quite a bit with my BE-OD Deluxe into my M2 + NAD IR; it feels and sounds slightly better than Nolly or Plini plug-in, IME. It might be new gear syndrome , who knows ..

so for me if the QC can fill up this space for feel/sound then I'll def consider it - 

Nolly < BE-OD + IR < (*QC*) < Real Amp


----------



## narad

Nik_Left_RG said:


> I agree, QC seems like an interesting piece of tech and I can't wait to hear 'real'/ unendorsed opinions in the future.
> 
> But, recently, having played quite a bit with my BE-OD Deluxe into my M2 + NAD IR; it feels and sounds slightly better than Nolly or Plini plug-in, IME. It might be new gear syndrome , who knows ..
> 
> so for me if the QC can fill up this space for feel/sound then I'll def consider it -
> 
> Nolly < BE-OD + IR < (*QC*) < Real Amp



My girlfriend was using one of those vox "plug-in" things -- the ones that literally plug in to your guitar. It's like $40. When it broke I suggested she take the leap and buy an interface and use plugins to learn about different effects and things. NDSP Nolly was the first one. She said it didn't sound natural and she prefers the vox thing! Given, those vox things sound way better than they should for that price, and she plays through a mark III a few times a week, but it was still surprising.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Pretty much my observation too. Nolly does sound pretty good. There is no denying that. It sounds far better than my last modeller. But currently my pedal + IR combo is slightly better for feel and that warm (yet cuts through the mix) - spongy kinda thing..


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Buy the thing with the capabilities you need .



My axe 2 does have it


----------



## SamSam

Delays aside, my biggest concern is actually the amount of buttons in such a small space. 

I doubt I could ever hit just one button during a live gig when the button spaces are a fair bit smaller than the width of my shoe.


----------



## budda

SamSam said:


> My axe 2 does have it



Sounds like you're set then.


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Sounds like you're set then.



One is never set in this gear whoring world.


----------



## budda

SamSam said:


> One is never set in this gear whoring world.



Self control saves lives


----------



## Randy

Tbh, the more I dig into this, the less convincing it is.

Past week or so has put modeler vs profiler more into focus. Profiling is what that amp sounds like at those settings, I think most people who've used the KPA for any significant amount of time know you don't expect to be able to just twist the knobs like you do on the real amp and get the same sounds you would at 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, etc. on the real thing.

The modeler is different because it's not necessarily going to accomplish 100% of an amp's response at every knob twist of the real amp, but it is trying to basically make all the general stages of the amp come through similar to how you'd use it in real life.
When you dig into Fractal's design philosophy, it's like 15 years of refining algorithms within algorithms to get closer to what the physical amp does as you turn each knob or when you put different pickups through it.

There's no universe where profiling AKA snapshotting an amp in a minute or two is going to catch that nuance. So until some insane leap in profiling technology happens, if you want anything resembling a "real amp experience" then you're talking like 10 profiles of the same amp at different settings you have to jump between. Which ironically defeats the purpose of having an "amp capturing box" in a lot of ways.

So the QC pushing both amp capturing and modeling is kind of a "neither fish, no fowl" type scenario. Either you've got accurate tracking models or you've got snapshots. Technically you can have both in the same box but can you coherently jump between the two? Is that a thing people will do? Patch 1 is a model that I can tweak however on the fly, then it goes to the solo and my next patch is a profile I just leave as it is?

The same logic carries over to the IR too. Adjustable mic position has been a thing since POD Farm or Amplitube or whatever. Single IR loading actually became a thing because you essentially wanted to just have two or three mic positions and cab models that you like and being able to drop them on whatever amp you're using as a starting point instead of infinite tweaking on infinite parts of your signal chain. Stock IR blending is almost a step back.

I mean, options are cool. If the QC can essentially be an AFX and a Kemper in the same box then I supposed that's probably good bang for the buck, I just think it turns out most people's habits will fall in one column or the other, not so much both.


----------



## thebeesknees22

On the capture subject. Just a thought, but couldn't machine learning be applied to capturing? Go from one extreme to the other on all knobs in all combinations possible and in theory one could replicated any possible combination of knob settings on an amp. (we're beginning to use it in 3d stuff like cloth although it's really early days. ...long story. not gonna get into that here)


----------



## sleewell

i wonder how long the knobs that are also foot switches will last.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Randy said:


> Tbh, the more I dig into this, the less convincing it is.
> 
> Past week or so has put modeler vs profiler more into focus. Profiling is what that amp sounds like at those settings, I think most people who've used the KPA for any significant amount of time know you don't expect to be able to just twist the knobs like you do on the real amp and get the same sounds you would at 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, etc. on the real thing.
> 
> The modeler is different because it's not necessarily going to accomplish 100% of an amp's response at every knob twist of the real amp, but it is trying to basically make all the general stages of the amp come through similar to how you'd use it in real life.
> When you dig into Fractal's design philosophy, it's like 15 years of refining algorithms within algorithms to get closer to what the physical amp does as you turn each knob or when you put different pickups through it.
> 
> There's no universe where profiling AKA snapshotting an amp in a minute or two is going to catch that nuance. So until some insane leap in profiling technology happens, if you want anything resembling a "real amp experience" then you're talking like 10 profiles of the same amp at different settings you have to jump between. Which ironically defeats the purpose of having an "amp capturing box" in a lot of ways.
> 
> So the QC pushing both amp capturing and modeling is kind of a "neither fish, no fowl" type scenario. Either you've got accurate tracking models or you've got snapshots. Technically you can have both in the same box but can you coherently jump between the two? Is that a thing people will do? Patch 1 is a model that I can tweak however on the fly, then it goes to the solo and my next patch is a profile I just leave as it is?
> 
> The same logic carries over to the IR too. Adjustable mic position has been a thing since POD Farm or Amplitube or whatever. Single IR loading actually became a thing because you essentially wanted to just have two or three mic positions and cab models that you like and being able to drop them on whatever amp you're using as a starting point instead of infinite tweaking on infinite parts of your signal chain. Stock IR fading is almost a step back.
> 
> I mean, options are cool. If the QC can essentially be an AFX and a Kemper in the same box then I supposed that's probably good bang for the buck, I just think it turns out most people's habits will fall in one column or the other, not so much both.



I do see your points, but I don't think NeuralDSP, or any reviews I've see, have claimed that they have melded modelling and profiling into one unified process. They're still separate functions, and looking at the way the scenes/presets work, you can load amp models or captures (of pedals, or amps, or amp/cab/mic setups) into the chain. It makes sense to me, and you can coherently mix them together. So you could have a crushing rhythm tone you profiled, but switch to a model for a lead tone, then back. No problem.

I do trust Neural on the modelling part, since they have kinda proven their chops when it comes to modelling great guitar amps. From the Nameless sim, they really captured a lot of how that amp works and how turning the different knobs affect each other. It's the first plugin where it did just sound good but it actually FELT like playing a real amp.

Speaking of putting both functions together, Axe FX had a tone match feature. Neural isn't the first one to do that. They've just done it with a really nice interface. Kemper too even kinda try that because they let you tweak profiled after making them. Problem is, it easily screws up your tone. What people are saying with QC is that you have a bit more latitude to change things without screwing up the tone. STL Tonelab does a similar thing. It has profiles, but you can perform quite a lot of tweaks afterwards and it still sounds ok.

So I don't think QC has done anything revolutionary. But (according to the paid ads/reviews) they've done both things very well - amp models as good as AxeFX and profiling as good as KPA.


----------



## Randy

thebeesknees22 said:


> On the capture subject. Just a thought, but couldn't machine learning be applied to capturing? Go from one extreme to the other on all knobs in all combinations possible and in theory one could replicated any possible combination of knob settings on an amp. (we're beginning to use it in 3d stuff like cloth although it's really early days. ...long story. not gonna get into that here)



I think that's potentially where things end up, yeah. 

It would still be a little more complicated than that because most changes follow a curve or an arc rather than a straight line and also respond differently based on what happens with OTHER knobs on the amp. 

So a more accurate scenario would be all the knobs in every possible configuration, which is a lot to ask a machine to learn across different amps with different amounts of adjustments on then. A plexi for example would be a lot different than trying to model my old Rivera that had 3 footswitchable gain stages and EQ bumps/notches in just one channel. I mean eventually it will be possible but it'll be a long time before one program can learn multiple types of amps.

Actually, what's kinda funny is if you follow the Fractal model for making amps, that's probably the closest thing to trying to crack the code of "what makes all amps sound like they do" since most firmware updates are less about adding feature and more about tweaking algorithms. You see like, 6 months of development on a single update that makes it so the bass responds differently depending on how you set the bias voltage.


----------



## diagrammatiks

thebeesknees22 said:


> On the capture subject. Just a thought, but couldn't machine learning be applied to capturing? Go from one extreme to the other on all knobs in all combinations possible and in theory one could replicated any possible combination of knob settings on an amp. (we're beginning to use it in 3d stuff like cloth although it's really early days. ...long story. not gonna get into that here)



the issue is that if you need to go that deep...why wouldn't you just use machine learning to model the amp.


----------



## Randy

Flappydoodle said:


> I do see your points, but I don't think NeuralDSP, or any reviews I've see, have claimed that they have melded modelling and profiling into one unified process. They're still separate functions, and looking at the way the scenes/presets work, you can load amp models or captures (of pedals, or amps, or amp/cab/mic setups) into the chain. It makes sense to me, and you can coherently mix them together. So you could have a crushing rhythm tone you profiled, but switch to a model for a lead tone, then back. No problem.
> 
> I do trust Neural on the modelling part, since they have kinda proven their chops when it comes to modelling great guitar amps. From the Nameless sim, they really captured a lot of how that amp works and how turning the different knobs affect each other. It's the first plugin where it did just sound good but it actually FELT like playing a real amp.
> 
> Speaking of putting both functions together, Axe FX had a tone match feature. Neural isn't the first one to do that. They've just done it with a really nice interface. Kemper too even kinda try that because they let you tweak profiled after making them. Problem is, it easily screws up your tone. What people are saying with QC is that you have a bit more latitude to change things without screwing up the tone. STL Tonelab does a similar thing. It has profiles, but you can perform quite a lot of tweaks afterwards and it still sounds ok.
> 
> So I don't think QC has done anything revolutionary. But (according to the paid ads/reviews) they've done both things very well - amp models as good as AxeFX and profiling as good as KPA.



Agreed if we're judging it based on their plugins but it's notable how little of those models have made it onto the QC so far. The effects, for example, I've heard almost every semi-unbiased reviewed say are "bad" when meanwhile the effects on pretty much all their plugins are good. 

So I mean, they're the same company and have access to the same IP but so far it looks to be more complicated than just dropping the plugins in a hardware VST loader. Not sure why that is.


----------



## thebeesknees22

diagrammatiks said:


> the issue is that if you need to go that deep...why wouldn't you just use machine learning to model the amp.


We probably will see that approach at some point as well. I mean I think most people in the digital world want to go that deep at some point just because at we will be able to so why not? lol 




Randy said:


> I think that's potentially where things end up, yeah.
> 
> It would still be a little more complicated than that because most changes follow a curve or an arc rather than a straight line and also respond differently based on what happens with OTHER knobs on the amp.




The curve vs arc isn't as big of a deal since if you have enough captures or samples of the knob positions, it'll just naturally create the curve. The profiling process will need to get a lot faster though which I think it will at some point.

The amp variations will take some time to setup, but it's not impossible. I think it'll get there at some point in the not too distant future. (maybe 5yrs we'll see some of the first inklings of it)


----------



## Rev2010

SamSam said:


> I doubt I could ever hit just one button during a live gig when the button spaces are a fair bit smaller than the width of my shoe.



Just glue a ruler to the bottom of your shoe 




Rev.


----------



## SamSam

I get that the majority of people want more knobs than the FM3 offers, but I am starting to believe that anyone that believes that the layout on the QC is great is either grossly overestimating it's size or they have never played a gig in their life where they have had to use footswitches.


----------



## narad

SamSam said:


> I get that the majority of people want more knobs than the FM3 offers, but I am starting to believe that anyone that believes that the layout on the QC is great is either grossly overestimating it's size or they have never played a gig in their life where they have had to use footswitches.



If we played gigs we wouldn't be obsessing over A/B profiling comparisons


----------



## SamSam

narad said:


> If we played gigs we wouldn't be obsessing over A/B profiling comparisons



That is true


----------



## Emperoff

SamSam said:


> Delays aside, my biggest concern is actually the amount of buttons in such a small space.
> 
> I doubt I could ever hit just one button during a live gig when the button spaces are a fair bit smaller than the width of my shoe.





SamSam said:


> I get that the majority of people want more knobs than the FM3 offers, but I am starting to believe that anyone that believes that the layout on the QC is great is either grossly overestimating it's size or they have never played a gig in their life where they have had to use footswitches.



Good to hear I'm not the only one that thinks this.


----------



## GunpointMetal

What part of your foot do you guys use to activate pedals? And how high up are you jumping to activate them? Just a little toe tap usually works for. I'm more concerned about all of the switches also being knobs. Seems like a bad point for a multifunction switch like that. But I'm also generally not keen about a touchscreen on the floor.


diagrammatiks said:


> the issue is that if you need to go that deep...why wouldn't you just use machine learning to model the amp.


At that point you are basically modeling the amp. It's just modeling with lower resolution and more steps for the end user.


----------



## c7spheres

I've watched the Pete Thorn video and the Rhett Shull video's so far. To save people time;

- Pete Thorn is over the rainbow on loving this thing and it's a paid endorsement. 
- Rhett Shull is not being paid and he is not over the rainbow about it. He doesn't even seem very impressed.


----------



## budda

GunpointMetal said:


> What part of your foot do you guys use to activate pedals? And how high up are you jumping to activate them? Just a little toe tap usually works for. I'm more concerned about all of the switches also being knobs. Seems like a bad point for a multifunction switch like that. But I'm also generally not keen about a touchscreen on the floor.
> 
> At that point you are basically modeling the amp. It's just modeling with lower resolution and more steps for the end user.



Sounds like a guy who just stands at his board all set to me.


----------



## broangiel

Here's an update from Doug that I think has killed my interest in the QC for now. I'm only posting this to get others' thoughts, so lay it on me:
_Captures and presets can only be shared through the cloud. We want to encourage people to sell presets and captures, but it'll have to got through us.
The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience (no unzipping files, connecting USB cables or copying files on a dongle), and also IP protection for the authors._

I'll copy my comment from the TGP thread to get the conversation rolling:
When third-party content is micromanaged by the manufacturer, that’s rarely for the consumer’s benefit. I fully believe this choice was made to tap into a revenue stream more than it was to create a consistently positive user experience. I think Kemper is a really good example of what I wanted the QC economy to be, and they don’t seem to struggle with their super hands off model. Fractal also has a lot of high-quality, off-site content, like the Austin Buddy packs. No need to micromanage.

I just don’t see this being great for the community, and this is where I take a step back and reevaluate 6-12mo down the line to see how the community has adapted to this headass decision.

I think this will lead to less value for the consumer in the form of higher priced products with less content and more paid-for content with less free content in the mix. Many items will be monetized, I fear. I’m all for paying creators for their work. I’m a massive supporter of York Audio, for example, but I want my money going to the creator, not the manufacturer/service provider. It’s the same reason I don’t use Uber Eats. I want the restaurant to get as much of my purchase as possible; I don’t want to worry about how much is getting skimmed off the top and how that cost is inevitably going to be passed onto me.

And for that reason, I’m out.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

broangiel said:


> Here's an update from Doug that I think has killed my interest in the QC for now. I'm only posting this to get others' thoughts, so lay it on me:
> _Captures and presets can only be shared through the cloud. We want to encourage people to sell presets and captures, but it'll have to got through us.
> The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience (no unzipping files, connecting USB cables or copying files on a dongle), and also IP protection for the authors._
> 
> I'll copy my comment from the TGP thread to get the conversation rolling:
> When third-party content is micromanaged by the manufacturer, that’s rarely for the consumer’s benefit. I fully believe this choice was made to tap into a revenue stream more than it was to create a consistently positive user experience. I think Kemper is a really good example of what I wanted the QC economy to be, and they don’t seem to struggle with their super hands off model. Fractal also has a lot of high-quality, off-site content, like the Austin Buddy packs. No need to micromanage.
> 
> I just don’t see this being great for the community, and this is where I take a step back and reevaluate 6-12mo down the line to see how the community has adapted to this headass decision.
> 
> I think this will lead to less value for the consumer in the form of higher priced products with less content and more paid-for content with less free content in the mix. Many items will be monetized, I fear. I’m all for paying creators for their work. I’m a massive supporter of York Audio, for example, but I want my money going to the creator, not the manufacturer/service provider. It’s the same reason I don’t use Uber Eats. I want the restaurant to get as much of my purchase as possible; I don’t want to worry about how much is getting skimmed off the top and how that cost is inevitably going to be passed onto me.
> 
> And for that reason, I’m out.



Well, I'm sure it will prove lucrative for them but it just killed any lingering interest I had for the QC, although to be honest I haven't had interest in some time now. 

I don't for a second believe it's anything but a financial decision. I can't even imagine a situation where what they are doing is of benefit to users. Brave move cotton. Looking more and more like cyberpunk at every turn lol.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

broangiel said:


> Here's an update from Doug that I think has killed my interest in the QC for now. I'm only posting this to get others' thoughts, so lay it on me:
> _Captures and presets can only be shared through the cloud. We want to encourage people to sell presets and captures, but it'll have to got through us.
> The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience (no unzipping files, connecting USB cables or copying files on a dongle), and also IP protection for the authors._
> 
> I'll copy my comment from the TGP thread to get the conversation rolling:
> When third-party content is micromanaged by the manufacturer, that’s rarely for the consumer’s benefit. I fully believe this choice was made to tap into a revenue stream more than it was to create a consistently positive user experience. I think Kemper is a really good example of what I wanted the QC economy to be, and they don’t seem to struggle with their super hands off model. Fractal also has a lot of high-quality, off-site content, like the Austin Buddy packs. No need to micromanage.
> 
> I just don’t see this being great for the community, and this is where I take a step back and reevaluate 6-12mo down the line to see how the community has adapted to this headass decision.
> 
> I think this will lead to less value for the consumer in the form of higher priced products with less content and more paid-for content with less free content in the mix. Many items will be monetized, I fear. I’m all for paying creators for their work. I’m a massive supporter of York Audio, for example, but I want my money going to the creator, not the manufacturer/service provider. It’s the same reason I don’t use Uber Eats. I want the restaurant to get as much of my purchase as possible; I don’t want to worry about how much is getting skimmed off the top and how that cost is inevitably going to be passed onto me.
> 
> And for that reason, I’m out.


yuck. We'll see how they actually implement that, but I remember Bias doing similar crap a few years ago and it definitely didn't help them.


----------



## nickgray

broangiel said:


> The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience (no unzipping files, connecting USB cables or copying files on a dongle)



Haha, sure. Amazing user experience. Only 600 neurocoins for a profile. Limited time offer! 1999 neurocoins for a $shill_youtuber preset pack! 10 expertly crafted biomemetic presets! Order yours today!

Doesn't surprise me one bit though. They're very marketing focused, and they have a strong "Apple" vibe to them (shiny, cool looking, and overpriced). Wouldn't be surprised to see some DLC and pay-to-win stuff down the line.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I wonder how difficult it’d be to make a pedal that could load 3rd party user VST’s. I don’t care about modeling amps per se, but the ability to run plugins like Pro-Q3 and Valhalla Vintage Verb would be pretty epic.


----------



## nickgray

DudeManBrother said:


> I wonder how difficult it’d be to make a pedal that could load 3rd party user VST’s



Very easy. The pedal will be the size of a laptop or a computer case though 

The problem is that it's simply not viable at the moment. You need something really small, beefy, with super low roundtrip latency, like 2-3ms at the very-very most, and reasonably priced. In principle, you could cannibalize laptop and sound card parts and hack together some kind of a small MFX unit, but it's not exactly commercially viable.



DudeManBrother said:


> but the ability to run plugins like Pro-Q3 and Valhalla Vintage Verb would be pretty epic.



And that's the other problem - why do you need these kinds of plugins in a pedal form, of all things?


----------



## MetalDaze

Well, I’m an iPhone user so the idea of going to one place for “apps” is familiar. If it works, good for him. 

Of course, the App Store came out a year after Apple proved it had a hit. A cloud full of captures means nothing if people don’t dig the device.


----------



## c7spheres

DudeManBrother said:


> I wonder how difficult it’d be to make a pedal that could load 3rd party user VST’s. I don’t care about modeling amps per se, but the ability to run plugins like Pro-Q3 and Valhalla Vintage Verb would be pretty epic.


 To bad Muse Receptors never took off with third party providers. That would have been awesome.


----------



## Randy

broangiel said:


> Here's an update from Doug that I think has killed my interest in the QC for now. I'm only posting this to get others' thoughts, so lay it on me:
> _Captures and presets can only be shared through the cloud. We want to encourage people to sell presets and captures, but it'll have to got through us.
> The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience (no unzipping files, connecting USB cables or copying files on a dongle), and also IP protection for the authors. _



And theeeeeere it is.


----------



## Randy

Nothing says "supported forever" like having to get all your presets off a server you have idea how long will be maintained.

This reminds me of when I got a Pebble a few months before they went out of business, and my voice commands and weather stopped working less than a year later because they all had to be pinged through their server, which they eventually took offline. Way to guarantee this thing is obsolete in the next 10 years.


----------



## technomancer

'_The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience" = "we want to ensure we get a cut of every commercial transaction involving our unit"_

Back to debating between the FM3 and Axe III for an effects unit


----------



## broangiel

I’m just glad this came out now and not after I paid for the the thing. 


Randy said:


> Nothing says "supported forever" like having to get all your presets off a server you have idea how long will be maintained.
> 
> This reminds me of when I got a Pebble a few months before they went out of business, and my voice commands and weather stopped working less than a year later because they all had to be pinged through their server, which they eventually took offline. Way to guarantee this thing is obsolete in the next 10 years.


This is a really good point that I didn’t even consider.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Cool, a forced solution for a problem no one had.

At least they're honest about the fact it's all for $$$.


----------



## DudeManBrother

nickgray said:


> Very easy. The pedal will be the size of a laptop or a computer case though
> 
> The problem is that it's simply not viable at the moment. You need something really small, beefy, with super low roundtrip latency, like 2-3ms at the very-very most, and reasonably priced. In principle, you could cannibalize laptop and sound card parts and hack together some kind of a small MFX unit, but it's not exactly commercially viable.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's the other problem - why do you need these kinds of plugins in a pedal form, of all things?


It’s not really about _need _as much as it’d just be cool to have. I get by perfectly fine with 20 some amps and a few handfuls of pedals. I don’t need a new pedal offering a companies take on something that exists 100x over. It’d be interesting to see a pedal that offers _nothing at all _on its own, other than the ability to load audio software I already own. I could run my guitar bus and parallel aux processing on my live rig, which is totally unnecessary, but still would be intriguing enough that I’d buy one. 

I don’t care about it enough to drag my laptop to shows. I have thought about making Kemper profiles with all that to see if it translates, but haven’t tried yet.


----------



## Randy

Also wondering if there's any legal liability in Neural collecting money for someone selling amp captures on their marketplace.

Considering Diezel already made an effort to sidestep capturing their amps, could NDSP getting paid specifically from people capturing a companies amps (as opposed to programming "inspired by" amp models into their units, or "capture whatever amp you want, we won't ask wink wink" KPA policy) create an IP issue?


----------



## DudeManBrother

c7spheres said:


> To bad Muse Receptors never took off with third party providers. That would have been awesome.


I had never even heard of them until now. Yeah man that would’ve been so cool.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Randy said:


> Also wondering if there's any legal liability in Neural collecting money for some selling amp captures on their marketplace.
> 
> Considering Diezel already made an effort to sidestep capturing their amps, could NDSP getting paid specifically from people capturing a companies amps (as opposed to programming "inspired by" amp models into their units, or "capture whatever amp you want, we won't ask wink wink" KPA policy) create an IP issue?



I don't see how an amp builder, or really any adjacent maker of noise, can claim ownership of a particular sound. 

They say "inspired by" because it's the trademarks of the brands they can't use. 

Even if there was an issue, since Kemper has gotten away with it for so long, and even mainstream companies like Line 6 have been fairly cavalier, I'd say it would be impossible to enforce. 

This concept has come up before, and it's interesting to think about. Especially in the context of stuff we, as an enthusiast guitar community, have laid out what we feel is and isn't acceptable as far as "copying" something.


----------



## Randy

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't see how an amp builder, or really any adjacent maker of noise, can claim ownership of a particular sound.
> 
> They say "inspired by" because it's the trademarks of the brands they can't use.
> 
> Even if there was an issue, since Kemper has gotten away with it for so long, and even mainstream companies like Line 6 have been fairly cavalier, I'd say it would be impossible to enforce.
> 
> This concept has come up before, and it's interesting to think about. Especially in the context of stuff we, as an enthusiast guitar community, have laid out what we feel is and isn't acceptable as far as "copying" something.



Yeah but it's the Neural marketplace. STL Tones Neural store isn't going to say "Bloggner Ex-tasty", it's going to say "here's a capture of a Bogner Ecstacy" and it's going to be for sale on the manufacturer's website where they get a cut. It's different than the dynamic as it exists right now.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Randy said:


> Yeah but it's the Neural marketplace. STL Tones Neural store isn't going to say "Bloggner Ex-tasty", it's going to say "here's a capture of a Bogner Ecstacy" and it's going to be for sale on the manufacturer's website where they get a cut. It's different than the dynamic as it exists right now.



We know that the names won't be changed?

But I don't see how it would be any different than Line 6 listing what the equivalent amps and effects they're using are, where as long as the trademark is attributed to the owner there isn't a problem.

Like this, straight from the Helix manual:



I suppose it depends on how "studied" and "profiled" or "captured" are defined.

Interesting to think about.


----------



## Randy

If everything has to go through the cloud, does that mean you can't backup your own captures locally?


----------



## c7spheres

DudeManBrother said:


> I had never even heard of them until now. Yeah man that would’ve been so cool.


 Looking further into Muse box's again, apparently they did have all kinds of stuff for it. Hmm. The ability to run synths, electronic drums and other plugins all at the same time without a computer sounds pretty cool.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Randy said:


> If everything has to go through the cloud, does that mean you can't backup your own captures locally?



That's how I read that statement.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

c7spheres said:


> Looking further into Muse box's again, apparently they did have all kinds of stuff for it. Hmm. The ability to run synths, electronic drums and other plugins all at the same time without a computer sounds pretty cool.



They took so much effort to setup and tweak and pretty much needed a computer on standby. They just weren't at all meant for this application.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> Here's an update from Doug that I think has killed my interest in the QC for now. I'm only posting this to get others' thoughts, so lay it on me:
> _Captures and presets can only be shared through the cloud. We want to encourage people to sell presets and captures, but it'll have to got through us.
> The main reasons here is ensuring an amazing user experience (no unzipping files, connecting USB cables or copying files on a dongle), and also IP protection for the authors._
> 
> I'll copy my comment from the TGP thread to get the conversation rolling:
> When third-party content is micromanaged by the manufacturer, that’s rarely for the consumer’s benefit. I fully believe this choice was made to tap into a revenue stream more than it was to create a consistently positive user experience. I think Kemper is a really good example of what I wanted the QC economy to be, and they don’t seem to struggle with their super hands off model. Fractal also has a lot of high-quality, off-site content, like the Austin Buddy packs. No need to micromanage.
> 
> I just don’t see this being great for the community, and this is where I take a step back and reevaluate 6-12mo down the line to see how the community has adapted to this headass decision.
> 
> I think this will lead to less value for the consumer in the form of higher priced products with less content and more paid-for content with less free content in the mix. Many items will be monetized, I fear. I’m all for paying creators for their work. I’m a massive supporter of York Audio, for example, but I want my money going to the creator, not the manufacturer/service provider. It’s the same reason I don’t use Uber Eats. I want the restaurant to get as much of my purchase as possible; I don’t want to worry about how much is getting skimmed off the top and how that cost is inevitably going to be passed onto me.
> 
> And for that reason, I’m out.



They have already said that they will offer offline options in the future and I hope they also make some hoops you need to do to be able to sell profiles so not everyone with a half assed capture tries to sell on the platform. NDSP says that the intent is for most content to be free with a limited number of commercial vendors. 

When I get my QC you will be able to get some free captures of my Bogner and Victory amps. Might do my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME too just to try it out.

The cloud thing is a convenience so people don't need to download, unzip, install files etc. Less hoops for end users to jump through to buy and install captures which can only help their popularity.

It's fine for the service provider to take a cut because cloud servers and bandwidth is not cheap at all and there's costs in setting up, developing and maintaining that ecosystem. It means that whoever sells captures does not need to set up their own page or Amazon AWS/MS Azure account for a server to serve their capture files or set up some license key things etc. That's a significant saving when they can just make a product page and link some YouTube or Soundcloud samples for example.


----------



## narad

Great, an app store for tones. I mean, I know NDSP already hopped on the trend of pre-order/early release hype stuff of the game industry, but now we're going to get microtransactioned to death too. I'm usually just cynical of their marketing BS, from a scientific standpoint, but seeing their grand vision laid out is really disheartening. 

I always thought the "marketplace" of kemper profiles was the most negative side of that device, and now it's back, with a vengeance.


----------



## laxu

narad said:


> Great, an app store for tones. I mean, I know NDSP already hopped on the trend of pre-order/early release hype stuff of the game industry, but now we're going to get microtransactioned to death too. I'm usually just cynical of their marketing BS, from a scientific standpoint, but seeing their grand vision laid out is really disheartening.
> 
> I always thought the "marketplace" of kemper profiles was the most negative side of that device, and now it's back, with a vengeance.



You don't have to buy anything and NeuralDSP's own updates to QC will be free. It's not like they are suddenly going "Oh, to get that amp capture you need to pay the DLC fee". The marketplace is afaik meant for 3rd party vendors. At most you might be able to buy the QC versions of NDSP plugins.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Such confidence in how things will be for a product that isn't out yet...


----------



## narad

laxu said:


> You don't have to buy anything and NeuralDSP's own updates to QC will be free. It's not like they are suddenly going "Oh, to get that amp capture you need to pay the DLC fee". The marketplace is afaik meant for 3rd party vendors. At most you might be able to buy the QC versions of NDSP plugins.



Well if it doesn't turn into everyone posting their profiles for a price, I'll come and take back what I said.

Though I like the thought of using one QC to profile a downloaded licensed profile running on a second QC as a workaround.


----------



## budda

Axechange is free.

Continue.


----------



## narad

budda said:


> Axechange is free.
> 
> Continue.



Yea, but you need a USB cable for that. You have to drag a file over. Who do they think I am, NASA?


----------



## lurè

I don't know, the best neural plugins (nameless, abasi....) aren't included, 3rd part prifiles and patches basically won't be free.
I see the caption "game changer" everywhere on YT but to me looks like more of an Apple approach to modeling


----------



## SamSam

lurè said:


> I don't know, the best neural plugins (nameless, abasi....) aren't included, 3rd part prifiles and patches basically won't be free.
> I see the caption "game changer" everywhere on YT but to me looks like more of an Apple approach to modeling



I wish there were some videos going a bit more in depth on the actual amp sims, but everyone is now focusing on the captures. We heard a few amp sims, no one was impressed and then they went quiet. The next wave of videos all focused on the capture function (which does sound good). 

The plugin thing still has me weary. I would at least like to see some sort of beta plugin test and demonstration so that we can see that the claims are correct. I would dread for that to be a No Man's Sky level promise that never get's fulfilled when it is one of the features (if not the feature) which currently interests me the most.

Was the capturing stuff even part of the initial announcement? I recall the focus being on amp sims and the plugins functioning on the device?


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> I wish there were some videos going a bit more in depth on the actual amp sims, but everyone is now focusing on the captures. We heard a few amp sims, no one was impressed and then they went quiet. The next wave of videos all focused on the capture function (which does sound good).
> 
> Was the capturing stuff even part of the initial announcement? I recall the focus being on amp sims and the plugins functioning on the device?



The capturing stuff gets so much focus because it's a more new thing not found in anything but the Kemper. According to NDSP they did not ask people making YouTube videos to focus on the captures at all. Most of the ones who did them have a pile of amps so obviously capturing those would be part of the thing.

I do agree I would love to see more about the amp models. And cab sims for that matter but those are very much glossed over in videos and then it's all capture capture capture.

I hope we see some more in depth videos soon that show the fx, amp sims and cabs.


----------



## broangiel

lurè said:


> I don't know, the best neural plugins (nameless, abasi....) aren't included, 3rd part prifiles and patches basically won't be free.
> I see the caption "game changer" everywhere on YT but to me looks like more of an Apple approach to modeling


I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that 3P content will be or should be free. Creators deserve to be paid.


----------



## lurè

broangiel said:


> I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that 3P content will be or should be free. Creators deserve to be paid.



Sure, but you're not actively supporting the creator, you're simply paying NDSP for a preset made from another user.

If I want to profile on my amps or make a preset using QC plugins , I can't freely share it like axechange but I've to upload it on a cloud and people need to buy it from there. It just doesn't make sense, why are you forcing users to use the cloud route? The zip files and USB cable is the worst excuse ever.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Just nothing seems to be fleshed out yet over a year since first announced. It's all conjecture and rather dry posts from NDSP/Doug. 

It gives the impression that either they're winging it, not being forthcoming on purpose, incompetent, or a combination of such.


----------



## X1X




----------



## Randy

broangiel said:


> I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that 3P content will be or should be free. Creators deserve to be paid.



I think the skepticism is the idea that "pay to download" is going to be integrated in the cloud/exchange itself, which incentivizes users to put a price tag on something that's been offered for free on every other device. 

And yeah there's always been third party preset sellers, but it goes from being an optional add-on to being a feature. 

Fractal knows people sell packs for their gear. Kemper knows people sell packs for their gear. Great, all the more reason for people to spend $1000+ on our hardware! Only Neural came around and decided they deserve to get a piece of BOTH ends of the transaction.


----------



## SamSam

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just nothing seems to be fleshed out yet over a year since first announced. It's all conjecture and rather dry posts from NDSP/Doug.
> 
> It gives the impression that either they're winging it, not being forthcoming on purpose, incompetent, or a combination of such.



Any official news posted are barely even worth reading other than to ascertain how long the latest delay is. I wish they would postpone until September and deliver the product they promised from the start. On the plus side if I claim my 200 euros back now I profit a whole £5!


----------



## sleewell

The no online editor is kinda lame too. Took kpa a long time to release theirs. I bet it takes them longer than they think. 

I dont crowd fund for gear so this has been interesting to watch. Hope it works out but my helix and fractal arent going anywhere.


----------



## lewis

Lets be honest, they should have just stayed with Plugins.

This unit shows off with its specs and impressive tech sheet, but where it counts, its sound, falls way short.
Sounds dreadful in just about every demo ive heard and doesnt even really look Aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

I don't know about the unit itself, but as a working mathematician for 15 years the "trigonometric neural net" hype triggers me. Maybe I should hire a publicist and go on a press tour to get research funds. They're definitely on to something...

Rhett Shull and Ola Englund gave seemingly honest assessments in their reviews: effects and amps don't blow out the competition (but may improve with firmware updates), some features may be marginal selling points for some users (e.g. routing more than one band member in the unit), in its current state it's not a game changer.

Neural are entering a market for the first time, it's not as if their R&D team has such geniuses that they can eclipse all the research work done for years by the equally brilliant teams at Fractal, Kemper, Line6, etc.. I'm sure their product will evolve positively in the future and I'll keep an eye out.

Personally, on the short-medium term, the main personal benefit I see is that more market competition will improve all products.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The Arthur C. Clarke quote is where the jumped the shark for me.


----------



## narad

lewis said:


> Lets be honest, they should have just stayed with Plugins.
> 
> This unit shows off with its specs and impressive tech sheet, but where it counts, its sound, falls way short.
> Sounds dreadful in just about every demo ive heard and doesnt even really look Aesthetically pleasing.



Dude, my overall impression is sort of negative (regarding device vs. hype expectation) so I don't disagree in general, but that is a beautiful unit! That is beautiful even in terms of general guitar gear, let alone the other modelers that clearly had no inclination to make an aesthetically clean and modern design. In Ola's vid I just sat there with the audio muted and gawked at it gleaming in the purple lights.


----------



## laxu

sleewell said:


> The no online editor is kinda lame too. Took kpa a long time to release theirs. I bet it takes them longer than they think.



I'd say there is far less need for this compared to Fractal for example. If I was 90% Axe-Edit with my Axe-Fx 2, with my Helix I am 99% using the hardware UI.



lewis said:


> Lets be honest, they should have just stayed with Plugins.
> 
> This unit shows off with its specs and impressive tech sheet, but where it counts, its sound, falls way short.
> Sounds dreadful in just about every demo ive heard and doesnt even really look Aesthetically pleasing.



I have to disagree. I think the unit and its UI looks really nice and sleek while demos from Pete Thorn, Rabea and now Ola have sounded good to me. Even better UI than the other units on the market with sounds and features that are in the same ballpark in a unit that is more compact than most. It's not some gamechanger by any means and that's not what I expect from it. I expect it to just be a really good modeler that is exceptionally easy to use.


----------



## Randy

lewis said:


> Lets be honest, they should have just stayed with Plugins.
> 
> This unit shows off with its specs and impressive tech sheet, but where it counts, its sound, falls way short.
> Sounds dreadful in just about every demo ive heard and doesnt even really look Aesthetically pleasing.



What struck me was how most KPA users know you can squeeze out a shitty capture depending on your settings, then Rabea did his demos of the QC next the KPA and made it look as if the KPA gets it wrong every time and the QC gets it right every time. 

Enter Olas video, and his A/B next to the Badlander sounded like fucking TRASH. And I'm not going to totally slag the unit off as not being able to make an at all decent sound (though I'll agree with you I've heard more bad than good), but the fact he made a capture that sounded like ass and Rabea basically shilled to make it sound like thats impossible kinda infuriates me.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

laxu said:


> Even better UI than the other units on the market with sounds and features that are in the same ballpark in a unit that is more compact than most.



Soundwise, I guess it depends on your definition of "ballpark". For me, the reverbs-delays I heard in the QC demos are clearly not as good as what I'd get on my Axefx3 (or an FM3, I imagine). 

Then again, is it fair for me to compare a first version firmware piece of gear to a multi-generational piece of gear? Probably not, but they put themselves in that position by trying to compete with existing units and marketing the QC as the reinvention of sliced bread. That being said, I'm sure they'll greatly improve it in the future.


----------



## lewis

Randy said:


> What struck me was how most KPA users know you can squeeze out a shitty capture depending on your settings, then Rabea did his demos of the QC next the KPA and made it look as if the KPA gets it wrong every time and the QC gets it right every time.
> 
> Enter Olas video, and his A/B next to the Badlander sounded like fucking TRASH. And I'm not going to totally slag the unit off as not being able to make an at all decent sound (though I'll agree with you I've heard more bad than good), but the fact he made a capture that sounded like ass and Rabea basically shilled to make it sound like thats impossible kinda infuriates me.


Agree with this 100%


----------



## broangiel

Randy said:


> I think the skepticism is the idea that "pay to download" is going to be integrated in the cloud/exchange itself, which incentivizes users to put a price tag on something that's been offered for free on every other device.
> 
> And yeah there's always been third party preset sellers, but it goes from being an optional add-on to being a feature.
> 
> Fractal knows people sell packs for their gear. Kemper knows people sell packs for their gear. Great, all the more reason for people to spend $1000+ on our hardware! Only Neural came around and decided they deserve to get a piece of BOTH ends of the transaction.


I’m hoping it doesn’t devolve to that. Honestly, I would be surprised if it did go so far as to require payment for any download. However, that might explain why NDSP has been able to rack up so much venture capital ($7M from Doug’s last update). If they have a monetization model in the works, of course people want to hop on that. It’s what literally every company is doing these days—trying to find ways to generate recurring, consistent revenue through services.


----------



## Randy

broangiel said:


> I’m hoping it doesn’t devolve to that. Honestly, I would be surprised if it did go so far as to require payment for any download. However, that might explain why NDSP has been able to rack up so much venture capital ($7M from Doug’s last update). If they have a monetization model in the works, of course people want to hop on that. It’s what literally every company is doing these days—trying to find ways to generate recurring, consistent revenue through services.



To clarify, I don't think the cloud will be full "pay to use" like a subscription or something, but if it's convenient to charge per download then I think more people will be inclined to start charging, yeah.

And I don't personally have an issue with companies like Tone Junkies selling amp captures because it takes work and there's demand and whatever, but there was always a line between commercial presets and sharing presets over the cloud that this just totally erases.

Turns a community vibe into a marketplace vibe.


----------



## broangiel

Randy said:


> To clarify, I don't think the cloud will be full "pay to use" like a subscription or something, but *if it's convenient to charge per download then I think more people will be inclined to start charging*, yeah.
> 
> And I don't personally have an issue with companies like Tone Junkies selling amp captures because it takes work and there's demand and whatever, but there was always a line between commercial presets and sharing presets over the cloud that this just totally erases.
> 
> Turns a community vibe into a marketplace vibe.


Bolded part of your comment for emphasis. This is my fear as well. We’re on the same page.


----------



## laxu

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Soundwise, I guess it depends on your definition of "ballpark". For me, the reverbs-delays I heard in the QC demos are clearly not as good as what I'd get on my Axefx3 (or an FM3, I imagine).
> 
> Then again, is it fair for me to compare a first version firmware piece of gear to a multi-generational piece of gear? Probably not, but they put themselves in that position by trying to compete with existing units and marketing the QC as the reinvention of sliced bread. That being said, I'm sure they'll greatly improve it in the future.



My experience is that none of the top tier units (Axe-Fx 2/3/FM3, Helix, Kemper) on the market are miles better from each. If you can't get great sounds out of any of them that's on you. Now we can always split hairs on which does X better or which has the most accurate modeling etc and there will be strengths and weaknesses to each of them and that will be the case for QC as well.

I can't say anything about the QC effects yet because I haven't played with them for myself and demos have been pretty limited in that regard but to me they have sounded fine. Fractal _does_ have really good reverbs and delays though. Helix has very good overdrive/distortion models and delays but its basic reverbs are only ok. The newer, more effected algorithms sound good.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> What struck me was how most KPA users know you can squeeze out a shitty capture depending on your settings, then Rabea did his demos of the QC next the KPA and made it look as if the KPA gets it wrong every time and the QC gets it right every time.
> 
> Enter Olas video, and his A/B next to the Badlander sounded like fucking TRASH. And I'm not going to totally slag the unit off as not being able to make an at all decent sound (though I'll agree with you I've heard more bad than good), but the fact he made a capture that sounded like ass and Rabea basically shilled to make it sound like thats impossible kinda infuriates me.



Are we watching the same video? Through my Sennheiser HD6XX headphones they sound pretty close.

EDIT: Tried it with my Beyer Dynamic DT990 Pros with and without Sonarworks Reference 4 to flatten the frequency response and the "Comparison between real amp and capture" section of Olas video still sounds very close to me. Not identical, but in that "I don't care, good enough" area for me.


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> Are we watching the same video? Through my Sennheiser HD6XX headphones they sound pretty close.



Mid-range got fizzy and the amp overall lost it's girth. I don't think the QC can't capture the Badlander, it was just likely a bad capture. But yes, I'd call the tone trash and not close, because it went from sounding like a patch I'd use to sounding like one I would not.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I was using my shitty Bluetooth headphones and I can hear the difference. The low end was insanely bloated on the capture.


----------



## technomancer

Randy said:


> What struck me was how most KPA users know you can squeeze out a shitty capture depending on your settings, then Rabea did his demos of the QC next the KPA and made it look as if the KPA gets it wrong every time and the QC gets it right every time.
> 
> Enter Olas video, and his A/B next to the Badlander sounded like fucking TRASH. And I'm not going to totally slag the unit off as not being able to make an at all decent sound (though I'll agree with you I've heard more bad than good), but the fact he made a capture that sounded like ass and Rabea basically shilled to make it sound like thats impossible kinda infuriates me.



Sort of seems like a pretty clear differentiation between someone that was sent a review unit and someone that is being paid to promote the product. 

From a strict curiosity standpoint I want to see how this plays out over the first year after the QC launches. I have no dog in the fight as I have a boatload of tube amps and am building more and my main use for any modeler would likely be as an effects unit, but the guys that seem vested in this thing for whatever reason before it has even hit the street make me wonder how it is going to play out.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Mid-range got fizzy and the amp overall lost it's girth. I don't think the QC can't capture the Badlander, it was just likely a bad capture. But yes, I'd call the tone trash and not close, because it went from sounding like a patch I'd use to sounding like one I would not.


What are you using to listen to it?


----------



## Flappydoodle

Randy said:


> Agreed if we're judging it based on their plugins but it's notable how little of those models have made it onto the QC so far. The effects, for example, I've heard almost every semi-unbiased reviewed say are "bad" when meanwhile the effects on pretty much all their plugins are good.
> 
> So I mean, they're the same company and have access to the same IP but so far it looks to be more complicated than just dropping the plugins in a hardware VST loader. Not sure why that is.



I suspect that’s because it’s lower down the priority list than creating a bunch of new models for new customers. Porting desktop plugins is an extra feature for existing customers, so arguably less financially beneficial to spend time on that. 

For the effects, it’s hard for me to say without using the device. From the demos I’ve heard the effects sound good to me though. But I’m also not super ‘into’ effects. To me, delay is delay, and reverb is usually fine unless it’s blatantly terrible.


----------



## Flappydoodle

lurè said:


> Sure, but you're not actively supporting the creator, you're simply paying NDSP for a preset made from another user.
> 
> If I want to profile on my amps or make a preset using QC plugins , I can't freely share it like axechange but I've to upload it on a cloud and people need to buy it from there. It just doesn't make sense, why are you forcing users to use the cloud route? The zip files and USB cable is the worst excuse ever.



It’s definitely the Apple App Store business model. And actually I’m ok with it IF NeuralDSP is also going to provide the benefits of the App Store. 

For example:

1. Trials. Captures should be able to be tried before buying. 

2. Refunds. If the app/profile can be uninstalled from your device from the cloud, they should be able to refund you for profiles you bought and don’t want (within some time limit)

3. Quality control. The App Store reviews apps for quality, and requires that they use certain types of layout/design for consistency. Neural should do the same. 

You don’t want any guy in a bedroom selling shitty profiles with no trials and no refunds. That will be horrible. But if it’s curated and Neural plays a valuable middleman role, then it’s fair IMO.


----------



## Emperoff

This thread is turning into a "_*laxu Vs. the world*_" kinda thread 

TBH my biggest gripe with the unit is its price. I don't think any of its hype is justified at 1600$ because:
- Amp sims aren't better than Fractal (FM3)
- FX aren't better than... anything?
- I don't need ten fucking switches if they're gonna be one inch apart.
- We don't know the reliability of the rotary encoders footswitches against dirt and oxidation.

Maybe this is a shoegazer's dream where you just stand on your spot the whole gig to be sure you hit the right switch with the tip of your toe. That's definetely not me.

I see it much more interesting as a studio desk amplifier. With the rotary encoders and stuff, but then again PC editors exist. And a couple of their own plugins can cover most of the tones their average audience will ever create. The Axe is already giving you a lot more in terms of sound quality for 600$ less.

Now if this was at 999$ or something that would be an entirely different thing, and compromises made to cover a wider ground (captures and that shit) would make more sense to me. I honestly don't see the appeal to captures, and Fractal has proven you don't need captures when you have 250 amps 

At this point I think they just wanted a hardware platform to cash in 3rd party captures.


----------



## mikah912

You guys are a tough crowd. Anyway, if y'all think the company's unethical and hell bent on nickeling-and-diming, the captures suck, and the footswitches are useless.....so be it. 

I liked the video, and while I heard a slight low-end difference between the Badlander and the Capture, it sounded damn close as Ola himself said. I also loved the MT15 capture. There are good tones galore to be had through this thing, and I am very much looking forward to getting mine.


----------



## SamSam

Emperoff said:


> Maybe this is a shoegazer's dream where you just stand on your spot the whole gig to be sure you hit the right switch with the tip of your toe.



Even a shoegazer will have issues with the second row...


----------



## lewis

Emperoff said:


> This thread is turning into a "*laxu* Vs. the world" kinda thread
> 
> TBH my biggest gripe with the unit is its price. I don't think any of its hype is justified at 1600$ because:
> - Amp sims aren't better than Fractal (FM3)
> - FX aren't better than... anything?
> - I don't need ten fucking switches if they're gonna be one inch apart.
> - We don't know the reliability of the rotary encoders footswitches against dirt and oxidation.
> 
> Maybe this is a shoegazer's dream where you just stand on your spot the whole gig to be sure you hit the right switch with the tip of your toe.
> 
> I see it much more interesting as a studio desk amplifier. With the rotary encoders and stuff, but then again PC editors exist. And the Axe is already giving you a lot more in terms of sound quality for 600$ less. Now if this was at 999$ or something that would be an entirely different thing, and compromises made to cover a wider ground (captures and that shit) would make more sense to me.
> 
> At this point I think they just wanted a hardware platform to cash in 3rd party captures..



Coming across like a total shill in here tbh

i completely agree with everything you said. Its getting bummed because its new and flavour of the month. Exactly like Fishman pickups, the fractal forums, Lace pickups and whatever else came before that.

People jump on bandwagons and then literally go to war to defend it. Why? I have no idea.
Why does anyone care if anyone else thinks its shit?


----------



## mikah912

lewis said:


> Coming across like a total shill in here tbh
> 
> i completely agree with everything you said. Its getting bummed because its new and flavour of the month. Exactly like Fishman pickups, the fractal forums, Lace pickups and whatever else came before that.
> 
> People jump on bandwagons and then literally go to war to defend it. Why? I have no idea.
> Why does anyone care if anyone else thinks its shit?



Nobody's "literally going to war". Nobody's even figuratively going to war. 

I think there is some unwarranted skepticism and hyperbole being slung at QC too, but it's really not worth arguing about at length. It's kinda interesting watching the pendulum swing from hype to torches-and-pitchforks before the thing even drops. But of course....all of that will fade away once I get it in my hands and can make choices on the worth of the unit for myself.


----------



## SamSam

mikah912 said:


> You guys are a tough crowd. Anyway, if y'all think the company's unethical and hell bent on nickeling-and-diming, the captures suck, and the footswitches are useless.....so be it.
> 
> I liked the video, and while I heard a slight low-end difference between the Badlander and the Capture, it sounded damn close as Ola himself said. I also loved the MT15 capture. There are good tones galore to be had through this thing, and I am very much looking forward to getting mine.



Don't get me wrong, the captures so far have sounded decent to me (haven't heard the badlander one yet). But the missing key features and the footswitch layout/dimensions (this is a permanent issue, there is no fixing this anymore!) are serious gripes on a 1600eu unit. I honestly believe that this is designed as a desk unit and not a floor unit. 

I still have my preorder, but I am seriously contemplating a cooling off period and giving it a year. In which time the Fractal stuff will have had the next big update which could render the QC redundant to me. (I still love my NDSP plugins).


----------



## Emperoff

SamSam said:


> Don't get me wrong, the captures so far have sounded decent to me (haven't heard the badlander one yet). But the missing key features and the footswitch layout/dimensions (this is a permanent issue, there is no fixing this anymore!) are serious gripes on a 1600eu unit. I honestly believe that this is designed as a desk unit and not a floor unit.
> 
> I still have my preorder, but I am seriously contemplating a cooling off period and giving it a year. In which time the Fractal stuff will have had the next big update which could render the QC redundant to me. (I still love my NDSP plugins).


----------



## diagrammatiks

mikah912 said:


> You guys are a tough crowd. Anyway, if y'all think the company's unethical and hell bent on nickeling-and-diming, the captures suck, and the footswitches are useless.....so be it.
> 
> I liked the video, and while I heard a slight low-end difference between the Badlander and the Capture, it sounded damn close as Ola himself said. I also loved the MT15 capture. There are good tones galore to be had through this thing, and I am very much looking forward to getting mine.



what else are we supposed to do for 65 pages for a product that's coming out...

someday.


----------



## mikah912

SamSam said:


> Don't get me wrong, the captures so far have sounded decent to me (haven't heard the badlander one yet). But the missing key features and the footswitch layout/dimensions (this is a permanent issue, there is no fixing this anymore!) are serious gripes on a 1600eu unit. I honestly believe that this is designed as a desk unit and not a floor unit.
> 
> I still have my preorder, but I am seriously contemplating a cooling off period and giving it a year. In which time the Fractal stuff will have had the next big update which could render the QC redundant to me. (I still love my NDSP plugins).



Yeah, I own an FM3, and I'm going to shoot them out when I get my QC. if it isn't up to snuff, I'll most certainly return it. 

Not sure what "missing key features" you are referring to, though. I guess a desktop editor, but the thing people have to realize is that whether it's the desktop editor or phone app....you'll always have to go through their cloud to get stuff on your machine. If that's a dealbreaker for folks...I get it, but it's not going to change. 

The footswitches, I believe, are spaced similar to the Line 6 HX Stomp, and I have no problem stepping on those distinctly and cleanly with my size 13 shoes.


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> Don't get me wrong, the captures so far have sounded decent to me (haven't heard the badlander one yet). But the missing key features and the footswitch layout/dimensions (this is a permanent issue, there is no fixing this anymore!) are serious gripes on a 1600eu unit. I honestly believe that this is designed as a desk unit and not a floor unit.
> 
> I still have my preorder, but I am seriously contemplating a cooling off period and giving it a year. In which time the Fractal stuff will have had the next big update which could render the QC redundant to me. (I still love my NDSP plugins).



I will probably use mine as a desk unit but I am also interested in trying it on the floor and see how it works like that. I would assume NDSP has taken this into account and the spacing is not as tight as it seems but whether they have tested it with people who have size 14 US shoes is another thing. I'm a svelte size 10 US so probably not an issue for me.

Funnily enough the number of footswitches is one of my complaints on most units. QC has a good amount, but they seem pretty tight. Helix has a good amount but it's big. FM3 does not have enough (and I don't want to do any tap dancing multi layer navigation to make up for it). HX Stomp does not have enough (XL does tho) while Fractal FC units are very expensive if you want to go Axe-Fx 3.

I have a preorder from Thomann for the QC so I can just get it, play with it for 30 days and return it if I don't like it - if it does not sound or perform like I prefer then I can just ship it back and get my money back. Then I can either keep using my Helix or wait for QC to get better and buy it again.


----------



## USMarine75

To be fair... I havent listened with $400 reference headphones, just through my TV home theater and Sony headphones... but QC doesnt sound fantastic to me. Very wooly bottom which is fine for rock but not great for the music most of you like. Also some of the presets I heard "sounded" digital - I think it was the Tom Quayle vid - overly saturated and compressed, pushed mids, weird note decay.

And it doesnt seem to sit well in a mix either. The new Strandberg Plini demo I thought sounded terrible. I'd pick my old Line 6 Vetta II over the tones in that video, but that's just me I guess.

Now I suppose you'll say well you need to listen with better headphones and not through a home theater... but if that's what it takes for this to sound good then SMDH.

Then again, I have pedestrian ears so what do I know. 

If I didn't have a powered KPA and footswitch i would def consider the QC. But considering the knock on KPA is there have been no major updates in 10+ years, what does QC really bring to the table? If Kemper updated the GUI to be more like the Rig Manager I'd see zero reason to switch. Especially now that we know QC is also pay for play.


----------



## narad

I'm pretty sure it's not designed as a floor unit, but rather, a unit that you don't choose a competing floor unit over, on the off-chance that you might in the future want to use it on the floor. Having it sort of floorable is just a FOMO-killing feature wrt the rest of the market.


----------



## SamSam

mikah912 said:


> Not sure what "missing key features" you are referring to, though. I guess a desktop editor, but the thing people have to realize is that whether it's the desktop editor or phone app....you'll always have to go through their cloud to get stuff on your machine. If that's a dealbreaker for folks...I get it, but it's not going to change.



Neural Plugin compatibility was one of the first features advertised but not available from launch, it was one of the main selling points for me and was advertised right from the start, before captures were even mentioned I believe. The implementation of this function is still ambiguous (unless the manual explains it all), can we use multiple plugins, will each segment be a separate block? And the release date of this function is unknown, it's a priority for post launch. 

A desktop editor whether you have use for it or not is pretty much an expected feature nowadays as well. I don't use it at all with the FM3, but I used it all the time with my Axe 2.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Ola's review is out - some balance from a funded review.


----------



## mikah912

SamSam said:


> Neural Plugin compatibility was one of the first features advertised but not available from launch, it was one of the main selling points for me and was advertised right from the start, before captures were even mentioned I believe. The implementation of this function is still ambiguous (unless the manual explains it all), can we use multiple plugins, will each segment be a separate block? And the release date of this function is unknown, it's a priority for post launch.



They explained this, actually. The plugins will - at some point - be available in full. That means each segment will be a separate block, and you can mix and match however you like. The presets will also be available. Yes, you would be able to use multiple plugins. There's just no release date. They're still behind in putting out all of the models slated to launch with the QC in September.



> A desktop editor whether you have use for it or not is pretty much an expected feature nowadays as well. I don't use it at all with the FM3, but I used it all the time with my Axe 2.



Helix didn't launch with one and neither did Kemper. I think they realize its importance, but that pales to actually getting this thing to market.


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> Neural Plugin compatibility was one of the first features advertised but not available from launch, it was one of the main selling points for me and was advertised right from the start, before captures were even mentioned I believe. The implementation of this function is still ambiguous (unless the manual explains it all), can we use multiple plugins, will each segment be a separate block? And the release date of this function is unknown, it's a priority for post launch.
> 
> A desktop editor whether you have use for it or not is pretty much an expected feature nowadays as well. I don't use it at all with the FM3, but I used it all the time with my Axe 2.



I would assume it simply means that you get the amp, cab and fx models as well as the presets from the plugins to your Quad Cortex. That's the only sensible way to do it. I would expect the models to be full sims rather than captures.

As you said, the desktop editor is less required for the FM3 than the Axe-Fx 2 and I think that applies to the QC too. That's why I am totally ok that it's coming after release. The biggest missing features on release to me are the lack of a split stomp/preset, stomp/scenes, scenes/preset hybrid footswitch modes and a looper. Both promised to be in the pipeline, just like the desktop editor.


----------



## SamSam

mikah912 said:


> They explained this, actually. The plugins will - at some point - be available in full. That means each segment will be a separate block, and you can mix and match however you like. The presets will also be available. Yes, you would be able to use multiple plugins. There's just no release date. They're still behind in putting out all of the models slated to launch with the QC in September.
> 
> 
> 
> Helix didn't launch with one and neither did Kemper. I think they realize its importance, but that pales to actually getting this thing to market.



So the release of these functions is "soon".

Well I guess if it wasn't available at launch for a 6 year old and ten year old product at launch it'll be fine for a brand new top of the line product to do the same?

Again, nothing here that couldn't have been solved if they hadn't announced a September 2020 launch when a 2021 launch was more realistic.


----------



## lurè

SamSam said:


> Neural Plugin compatibility was one of the first features advertised but not available from launch, it was one of the main selling points for me and was advertised right from the start, before captures were even mentioned I believe



I think most of the initial preorders have been made by people loving the plugins and excited to use them in an amp+cab format for live usage.
Big part of the hype was driven by the plugins than the actual unit itself.


----------



## mikah912

SamSam said:


> So the release of these functions is "soon".
> 
> Well I guess if it wasn't available at launch for a 6 year old and ten year old product at launch it'll be fine for a brand new top of the line product to do the same?
> 
> Again, nothing here that couldn't have been solved if they hadn't announced a September 2020 launch when a 2021 launch was more realistic.



Even Doug said he was overly optimistic and aggressive on the timelines. No argument there. It's not really about it being "fine" for the QC to launch without a desktop editor, but more about every company has to determine the priorities, firmware-wise, when trying to get a flagship product to market.


----------



## laxu

I generally don't like the guy because he's that angry douche persona, but I do agree with many of his points.


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> So the release of these functions is "soon".
> 
> Well I guess if it wasn't available at launch for a 6 year old and ten year old product at launch it'll be fine for a brand new top of the line product to do the same?
> 
> Again, nothing here that couldn't have been solved if they hadn't announced a September 2020 launch when a 2021 launch was more realistic.



It's a classic development problem that happens no matter how experienced you are. They overestimated their velocity and all the bumps in the road (including a global pandemic) have delayed it over and over. I preordered mine hoping it might come for Christmas...then for my birthday in January...well, still waiting and that's fine.

Maybe as a software developer I am more sympathetic to their struggles as I have been in so many projects where the next big version has been delayed by months not due to incompetence but simply because the issues that needed to be tackled were more complex than predicted and there were new issues that arose during that development.

If you feel that the QC's release feature set does not work for you, just wait. Wait for regular user reviews, wait for a desktop editor etc. and then make your purchase decision. I did not jump on the direct preorders because I felt their timelines were too optimistic and in that time there might be other products I wanted to entertain, like the BluGuitar Amp X (which is also delayed from a 2020 release to "somewhere in 2021").


----------



## SamSam

lurè said:


> I think most of the initial preorders have been made by people loving the plugins and excited to use them in an amp+cab format for live usage.
> Big part of the hype was driven by the plugins than the actual unit itself.



I preordered based on the strength of the plugins as well.



laxu said:


> It's a classic development problem that happens no matter how experienced you are. They overestimated their velocity and all the bumps in the road (including a global pandemic) have delayed it over and over. I preordered mine hoping it might come for Christmas...then for my birthday in January...well, still waiting and that's fine.



My Christmas and birthday wishes for this season have also been dashed away


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> What are you using to listen to it?



Started with my laptop speakers, bumped it up to JBL 305s and then BD 990s for good measure.

It reminds me of the Mooer Preamp Live. It sounds like an immitation of the amp enough that you know what he's going for, but it's not close enough if you're going for the "This is an expensive ass amp profiled in an expensive ass studio by a professional recording artist/producer" type dynamic you expect hearing/downloading/buying(?) captures. Like I said, it went from a tone I would use to one I would not.

Which I probably won't mind if it was an after thought like Fractal or Bias ToneMatch but all the demos seem centered on the capturing now and Rabea went over and above to claim this was the high water mark and supercedes the KPA, which he poorly captured twice. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." 

Ola spent the bulk of his time praising the "run an entire band through it" feature, which is likely to be used by exactly zero people and should tell you something about how much he was grasping to find something notable about it.


----------



## SamSam

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Ola's review is out - some balance from a funded review.





This was refreshingly honest.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Started with my laptop speakers, bumped it up to JBL 305s and then BD 990s for good measure.
> 
> It reminds me of the Mooer Preamp Live. It sounds like an immitation of the amp enough that you know what he's going for, but it's not close enough if you're going for the "This is an expensive ass amp profiled in an expensive ass studio by a professional recording artist/producer" type dynamic you expect hearing/downloading/buying(?) captures. Like I said, it went from a tone I would use to one I would not.
> 
> Which I probably won't mind if it was an after thought like Fractal or Bias ToneMatch but all the demos seem centered on the capturing now and Rabea went over and above to claim this was the high water mark and supercedes the KPA, which he poorly captured twice. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
> 
> Ola spent the bulk of his time praising the "run an entire band through it" feature, which is likely to be used by exactly zero people and should tell you something about how much he was grasping to find something notable about it.



The BD 990s have a very big high end boost and a dip in the mids. I highly suggest giving the Sonarworks Reference 4 software a try to flatten their response. Trial version is available from their website. It may sound like it dulls them initially but you are just used to a massive amount of high end boost. The Sennheiser HD6XX are far better balanced.

To me the difference was actually in levels purely based on eyeballing where they went. The QC seemed to be a bit lower level which instantly changes the perception. If I turn up my headphones a bit during the QC section of the comparison then they sound quite similar to my ears. I can spot a difference in the QC but it's not night and day and in the Spectre Sound Studios video I posted it's really difficult to say.

Why was the Rabea Kemper capture poor? He did it for multiple amps and if a guy who has had the Kemper for years can't get good results out of it yet does from the QC, isn't that more like a nail in the Kemper's coffin?

Ola was demoing DSP usage on the Quad Cortex which I haven't seen in any other demos. I agree that it's not a situation any band would really use but I suppose you could use it as a "hey, come over and jam, just hook up to my QC" type thing. You can do the same thing on Helix if you want so it's not anything new. Fractal can't quite do it unless you run the bass direct because of its 2 simultaneous amp models limitation.


----------



## USMarine75

This entire thread...


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

At this point, I hope they regroup and focus on making a desktop app to centralize all their plugins (while improving the QC).



Randy said:


> Ola spent the bulk of his time praising the "run an entire band through it" feature, which is likely to be used by exactly zero people and should tell you something about how much he was grasping to find something notable about it.



To be fair, Ola talked about the multi-instrument thing for about 2 minutes of a 20 minute review and to my ears, sounded pretty critical/nuanced for the rest.


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> The BD 990s have a very big high end boost and a dip in the mids. I highly suggest giving the Sonarworks Reference 4 software a try to flatten their response. Trial version is available from their website. It may sound like it dulls them initially but you are just used to a massive amount of high end boost. The Sennheiser HD6XX are far better balanced.



Even if true, an EQ shift isn't going to fix 'fizzy' and it's 'fizzy'. Not in a specific range of the EQ, the whole thing just becomes less defined. Like a ReValver preset or something. It's like "oh yeah I get what they're after, that's Badlander-ish".

Like I said, I never said this couldn't made decent captures, I said that Rabea's claim is that it makes *better* profiles and that there's something inherently present in all KPA profiles that isn't in the QC, and I think one guy is too small of a sampling size to conclude that. 

So the very next guy who I consider having any credibility posts his A/B of his amp and the capture and it's, to me, night and day different and the QC imparts artifacts that sounds cheap and inauthentic. After the other guy claimed up and down that it doesn't.


----------



## Randy

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> To be fair, Ola talked about the multi-instrument thing for about 2 minutes of a 20 minute review and to my ears, sounded pretty critical/nuanced for the rest.



He mentioned it during the wrap up, which is what matters the most.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Glenn Fricker's video with the QC vs his Revv made them nigh indistinguishable to my ears. 
I have a feeling a lot of capturing/refining is going to come down to user error/preference like with the Kemper. On the kemper there were like 2000 profiles of 5150s but probably only a handful of them were truly exceptional ime. 

I don't trust any of the big gear channels tbh. Most of them are more than capable of making gear sound good, even bad/mediocre gear. The real litmus test is still getting QCs into the hands of average gear nerds.


----------



## Metropolis

Randy said:


> What struck me was how most KPA users know you can squeeze out a shitty capture depending on your settings, then Rabea did his demos of the QC next the KPA and made it look as if the KPA gets it wrong every time and the QC gets it right every time.
> 
> Enter Olas video, and his A/B next to the Badlander sounded like fucking TRASH. And I'm not going to totally slag the unit off as not being able to make an at all decent sound (though I'll agree with you I've heard more bad than good), but the fact he made a capture that sounded like ass and Rabea basically shilled to make it sound like thats impossible kinda infuriates me.



Basically Mesa Badlander capture in Ola's video is a tad lower in volume, which is partly fooling you to think that they're so far apart from each other. Try to match them a and listen again, they're really close.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

The badlander capture has that cocked wah thing going on. Should be noted that the actual badlander sounded bad also. 

Glenn's capture of the Revv sounds less focused and brighter in the mix. Feels kinda like the difference between a cab miced with a real sm57 vs a cab with an SM57 clone from pyle or Behringer.


----------



## lewis

this thread in a nutshell

95% of posters "I dont like how it sounds"
1% of posters "well youre all wrong"
4% of posters *sips coffee whilst watching the madness unfold*


----------



## budda

lewis said:


> this thread in a nutshell
> 
> 95% of posters "I dont like how it sounds"
> 1% of posters "well youre all wrong"
> 4% of posters *sips coffee whilst watching the madness unfold*



I dunno, the wine/capri sun seemed good too.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

budda said:


> I dunno, the wine/capri sun seemed good too.



Bring back Capri Sun Tropical damn you!!! And give me a 500ml juice size, diabetes be damned!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Okay listening with proper headphones now I can hear Ola's captures more precisely. 

The Quad capture sounds more scooped, significantly more bass, and as someone said above there's a slight cocked wah thing going on. It's also weird because it sounds more muffled yet more fizzy at the same time? Like some treble frequencies sound more muted out but there's some artifacts in the extreme highs. I just know there's some INSANE low end rumble going on.


----------



## Randy

Ataraxia2320 said:


> cocked wah





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> a slight cocked wah



The irony here is that's exactly what Rabea accused the Kemper profiles of always having.

To me, that (in both the QC and the KPA's cases) indicates a "bad" capture. Not like, unusable or totally inaccurate but either a phase issue during the capture or maybe the oscillating of the amp soundwave itself hitting the unit in a way that imparts a subtle overtone that now displays as fundamental EQ character once the profiler tries to mimic. 

I would be absolutely content with both sides conceding that but instead it's "no it's perfect all the time, the other one is unusable all the time".


----------



## lewis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Okay listening with proper headphones now I can hear Ola's captures more precisely.
> 
> The Quad capture sounds more scooped, significantly more bass, and as someone said above there's a slight cocked wah thing going on. It's also weird because it sounds more muffled yet more fizzy at the same time? Like some treble frequencies sound more muted out but there's some artifacts in the extreme highs. I just know there's some INSANE low end rumble going on.


its really weird.
To be honest, I thought the Mooer Preamp captured sounds better than this lol
The Mooer stuff even looks better too imo -


----------



## lewis

Randy said:


> The irony here is that's exactly what Rabea accused the Kemper profiles of always having.
> 
> To me, that (in both the QC and the KPA's cases) indicates a "bad" capture. Not like, unusable or totally inaccurate but either a phase issue during the capture or maybe the oscillating of the amp soundwave itself hitting the unit in a way that imparts a subtle overtone that now displays as fundamental EQ character once the profiler tries to mimic.
> 
> I would be absolutely content with both sides conceding that but instead it's "no it's perfect all the time, the other one is unusable all the time".



Rabea is that typical youtuber who is easy to buy the favour of.
One minute he wants us to buy his Kraken Kemper profiles,
The next he is slagging Kempers off in favour of the next shiny product that simply offered him money/gear

Basically then, he is telling us his profile packs will be shit and contain Wah sounds over them so we shouldn't buy them?


----------



## thebeesknees22

well anymore a youtuber's job is to sell stuff. The more they sell, the more products they get, the more endorsements they get etc.... rinse/repeat. It's not just music people either. If they dare to say something isn't super great then the more likely a company out there will pass them up on handing out free gear.


----------



## budda

Then just go into actual sales


----------



## nickgray

lewis said:


> The Mooer stuff even looks better too imo -



Lol, that's a really modest quote on that board  So far the only works and despair to look at are the immeasurable amount of shitposts on various forums 



thebeesknees22 said:


> well anymore a youtuber's job is to sell stuff.



The problem is that this stuff can get into a used car salesman territory. A little bit of shilling is understandable, especially for actual musicians, but if you go too far you'll end up like this:


----------



## Deadpool_25

Well I, for one, can’t wait for the QC to be released. I’m more excited for this release than any in a long time. 






Because then maybe this thread will die.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Randy said:


> The irony here is that's exactly what Rabea accused the Kemper profiles of always having.



To be fair, I also think this is the case with the Kemper high gain profiles. It's the main reason why I never bought into the profiling hype. Amp sims or tube amps for life!


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Deadpool_25 said:


> Because then maybe this thread will die.



Easy solution: don’t read it.

I haven’t had this much fun since I accidentally walked into a bank with no mask on. Don’t ruin it for me.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

Is now the right time to confess I only watched the overview and conclusion parts of Ola’s video?


I’m tempted to buy one only to do my first ever YouTube gear review to show what these do when a normal user gets hold of one...


----------



## olejason

I feel like the multi-instrument feature would have been pretty popular among European bands pre-covid and that's likely who their target audience was. I think every European metal band I've seen in the last 5 years were running multiple Kempers. Kinda sucks that international tours are unlikely for another year or more.


----------



## thebeesknees22

nickgray said:


> The problem is that this stuff can get into a used car salesman territory. ..
> View attachment 90101



Honestly I think some channels are already there :/


----------



## SamSam

Deadpool_25 said:


> Well I, for one, can’t wait for the QC to be released. I’m more excited for this release than any in a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because then maybe this thread will die.



Hey! You have a 27 page NGD! You cant say that!


----------



## Spinedriver

lewis said:


> its really weird.
> To be honest, I thought the Mooer Preamp captured sounds better than this lol
> The Mooer stuff even looks better too imo -



I have a Preamp Live, so it's good to know...  Not to mention the fact that the PAL is about $1,000 cheaper too.


----------



## USMarine75

SSO: "Why does my profile have this weird thing in the midrange I cant get rid of?"

Everyone else: "I dont know... what profile are you using?"

SSO: "5150 with everything on 10. With a TS on 10 in front. And a Metal Zone in front. Also on 10."


----------



## thrashinbatman

USMarine75 said:


> SSO: "Why does my profile have this weird thing in the midrange I cant get rid of?"
> 
> Everyone else: "I dont know... what profile are you using?"
> 
> SSO: "5150 with everything on 10. With a TS on 10 in front. And a Metal Zone in front. Also on 10."


NO GAIN, ALL THE MIDS! PERIPHERY!


----------



## narad

USMarine75 said:


> SSO: "Why does my profile have this weird thing in the midrange I cant get rid of?"
> 
> Everyone else: "I dont know... what profile are you using?"
> 
> SSO: "5150 with everything on 10. With a TS on 10 in front. And a Metal Zone in front. Also on 10."



And why are people complaining about the cocked wah sound? You know how much a good wah pedal costs? I suppose you also throw a fit when the McDonalds person sprinkles a few extra fries in the bottom of the bag??


----------



## StevenC

lewis said:


> its really weird.
> To be honest, I thought the Mooer Preamp captured sounds better than this lol
> The Mooer stuff even looks better too imo -


You can argue sound all you want, but the QC is just the best looking floor modeler. Maybe the display in that picture is a bit dull and greyscale, but it is just incredibly sleek over all.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Are we really debating what a _floor processor_ looks like?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Reject Modernity

Embrace Tradition


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Reject Modernity
> 
> Embrace Tradition



I don't know if you were alive when these came out, but fuck dude, no thanks.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

EDIT: Goddammit SSO can't handle gothic font. 

? ?


----------



## Flappydoodle

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Ola's review is out - some balance from a funded review.




They engraved his name on the bottom of the device. So even if he didn’t get $$ directly, he still got a free unit to keep.


----------



## Randy

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>



I always throught the pedals on these looked like Twix bars.


----------



## Flappydoodle

I don’t know why people are so obsessed over the delivery date. They were over ambitious but I think a massive global pandemic is also a pretty fair excuse. 

This always happens with tech products. There’s hype, promises and then reality. And so far we seem to be talking about delays, not a total abandonment of the ideas (ie desktop editor, porting plugins to the device etc)

If you NEED a guitar processor right now, then just buy one of the perfectly great products which are already on the market. Don’t sit and bitch that this is late. 

If this is just a toy for you (I fall into this category, and I assume most of us are the same), then there’s zero penalty for waiting. Grow up a bit and have some patience. It’s actually better to be delayed and complete than rushing out something with a ton of problems.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> I don’t know why people are so obsessed over the delivery date. They were over ambitious but I think a massive global pandemic is also a pretty fair excuse.
> 
> This always happens with tech products. There’s hype, promises and then reality. And so far we seem to be talking about delays, not a total abandonment of the ideas (ie desktop editor, porting plugins to the device etc)
> 
> If you NEED a guitar processor right now, then just buy one of the perfectly great products which are already on the market. Don’t sit and bitch that this is late.
> 
> If this is just a toy for you (I fall into this category, and I assume most of us are the same), then there’s zero penalty for waiting. Grow up a bit and have some patience. It’s actually better to be delayed and complete than rushing out something with a ton of problems.



I think it's perfectly reasonable for folks who paid for a pre-order spot to have issue with moving deadlines with no concrete release date and constant shuffling of capabilities and unknown timelines for content originally promised at launch to voice frustration.


----------



## USMarine75

narad said:


> And why are people complaining about the cocked wah sound? You know how much a good wah pedal costs? I suppose you also throw a fit when the McDonalds person sprinkles a few extra fries in the bottom of the bag??



Well, I can't hate cocked wah tones since I own both of these...


----------



## Deadpool_25

SamSam said:


> Hey! You have a 27 page NGD! You cant say that!



Valid.


----------



## narad

USMarine75 said:


> Well, I can't hate cocked wah tones since I own both of these...



I dig the bottom one. Not sure if it's an intentional play on mids and mid-century modern, but it works.


----------



## Deadpool_25

narad said:


> And why are people complaining about the cocked wah sound? You know how much a good wah pedal costs? I suppose you also throw a fit when the McDonalds person sprinkles a few extra fries in the bottom of the bag??



Those are always the best fries in the order. One time I didn’t have any fries in the bottom of the bag. Fucking bullshit imo. Oh yeah, and one time Sweetwater forgot to give me candy. It’s a conspiracy.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think it's perfectly reasonable for folks who paid for a pre-order spot to have issue with moving deadlines with no concrete release date and constant shuffling of capabilities and unknown timelines for content originally promised at launch to voice frustration.



Oh, yes, for sure. If you pre-ordered under one premise, that's a different story.

I totally forgot about people who pre-ordered

(Therefore my comment would be directed at the bystanders, such as myself)


----------



## lurè

USMarine75 said:


> Well, I can't hate cocked wah tones since I own both of these...



I dig the second too, same motif of my grandma bathroom's floor.


----------



## lewis

budda said:


> Then just go into actual sales



Hahahaha this ffs!


----------



## X1X

I thought the differences between the real amp and the profile were actually somewhat significant in the SpectreSoundStudios video. Maybe I'm just attuned to hearing the right frequencies in this case but the modelling is not convincing based on that one sample I've heard. The profile was more "all over the place".


----------



## Slaeyer

Flappydoodle said:


> I don’t know why people are so obsessed over the delivery date. They were over ambitious but I think a massive global pandemic is also a pretty fair excuse.



I really don't know much about how NDSP works, but most of the issues I remember that were fixed within the last months were on software side. 
From what I know working in IT the pandemic did not really have much of an effect.... it's just a quite easy excuse to blame everything on covid these days

I was actually part of tier 2 preorder and cancelled my preorder last summer as the delay way already apparent with no demos being released concerning the capturing, et cetera....
I'm still really excited for the QC but also fall into the "it's just a toy" category and will wait until some time after the actual release....


----------



## USMarine75

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLPvQi4gd8w/?igshid=137btogpy1k32


----------



## Flappydoodle

One other thing I noticed from the "reviews" (even those which claim to be impartial) is that they all make sure to hit the exact same talking points. Certainly reading the script IMO.

1. Don't worry about the foot switches also being knobs. The Neural guys have tested it and it's 100% fine

2. Captures are totally a different thing to Kemper profiles. Totally different.

Having now watched Ola, angry yelling guy and Fluff's reviews, none of the profiles sounds identical to the real amp - but they all sound close enough. As someone said earlier - Badlander-ish. I assume it will get better with time.

Either way, I'll wait until these things are actually on the shelves and all of the features are complete. Then decide if it's worth picking up as a toy.

Mostly, I want to see:

1. How good this is as an audio interface vs. a real interface

2. How Neural ends up runs their profile store. Will they provide a service with curation, trials/refunds etc? Or are they just wanting to take a cut with no curation?

3. How the cloud service works. IMO it would be best as an App Store type situation where you pay for access, and you can download/remove it from your device at will. That would then enable trials and refunds. Plus, running a cloud service like that isn't easy. Hope their servers are good. Hope they don't have compatibility issues with QCs running different firmware versions etc.

4. What the commercial market for captures looks like

5. Desktop software finished

6. Existing NeuralDSP plugins brought across. I own several already. Curious to see how they're integrated also. Like, will the cool effect pedals from Gojira plugin be brought over? Will you be able to mix and match - like putting the Gojira chorus pedal with Nolly reverb with the the Nameless amp?

Because honestly, I'm really happy with the sound I get from plugins, and they're super convenient. So this is just a toy and right now I don't want to be a beta tester for a "work in progress"


----------



## laxu

Flappydoodle said:


> One other thing I noticed from the "reviews" (even those which claim to be impartial) is that they all make sure to hit the exact same talking points. Certainly reading the script IMO.
> 
> 1. Don't worry about the foot switches also being knobs. The Neural guys have tested it and it's 100% fine
> 
> 2. Captures are totally a different thing to Kemper profiles. Totally different.
> 
> Having now watched Ola, angry yelling guy and Fluff's reviews, none of the profiles sounds identical to the real amp - but they all sound close enough. As someone said earlier - Badlander-ish. I assume it will get better with time.
> 
> Either way, I'll wait until these things are actually on the shelves and all of the features are complete. Then decide if it's worth picking up as a toy.
> 
> Mostly, I want to see:
> 
> 1. How good this is as an audio interface vs. a real interface
> 
> 2. How Neural ends up runs their profile store. Will they provide a service with curation, trials/refunds etc? Or are they just wanting to take a cut with no curation?
> 
> 3. How the cloud service works. IMO it would be best as an App Store type situation where you pay for access, and you can download/remove it from your device at will. That would then enable trials and refunds. Plus, running a cloud service like that isn't easy. Hope their servers are good. Hope they don't have compatibility issues with QCs running different firmware versions etc.
> 
> 4. What the commercial market for captures looks like
> 
> 5. Desktop software finished
> 
> 6. Existing NeuralDSP plugins brought across. I own several already. Curious to see how they're integrated also. Like, will the cool effect pedals from Gojira plugin be brought over? Will you be able to mix and match - like putting the Gojira chorus pedal with Nolly reverb with the the Nameless amp?
> 
> Because honestly, I'm really happy with the sound I get from plugins, and they're super convenient. So this is just a toy and right now I don't want to be a beta tester for a "work in progress"



Very sensible points. I jumped on the dealer preorder thing because at most it costs me a bit of time and effort to return the unit if I don't like it and I get to try the latest and greatest right away. The first year after release is going to be probably the most exciting as you will get new stuff probably every few months but also the most crucial for delivering on the intended features.


----------



## olejason

It sounds like the plan is to have continued revenue from things like the profile store, plugin ports, etc. What kind of security are they running on the hardware? I imagine it has to "phone home" to verify licenses but is there more? With the plugins being recently cracked I've wondered if that has created delays on the software side of the release as they work to shore up whatever hole was found. I'm sure they want to avoid a situation where a person buys the hardware then steals all the add-ons.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


> https://www.instagram.com/p/CLPvQi4gd8w/?igshid=137btogpy1k32
> 
> View attachment 90160



The Kemper is a weird beast. I was checking out some of their clips and they sound fucking fantastic.

OTOH I was checking out some reviews for pickups where people were using Kempers, and they sounded absolute aaaaasss. I'm guessing they were either using bad profiles from the start or were tweaking the profiles way too much.


----------



## MrWulf

Personally i dont trust these paid advertisement or people claiming one way or another that Kemper or QC is better. I remember when Rob Chapman tested a bunch of tube amps/Kemper and he couldnt tell which is which to save his life in the Andertons channel. A lot ot guitarist listen with their eyes rather with their ears so i'll wait for all the dust to settles.


----------



## cwhitey2

I cant wait until ppl capture the axe fx


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

cwhitey2 said:


> I cant wait until ppl capture the axe fx



I think Dino Cazares already did that with him Kemper. 

IIRC he used the Axe FX to tone match some Demanufacture stems, then profiled that using the Kemper. And he rocked that until he got his custom Fortin JCM800.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think Dino Cazares already did that with him Kemper.
> 
> IIRC he used the Axe FX to tone match some Demanufacture stems, then profiled that using the Kemper. And he rocked that until he got his custom Fortin JCM800.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think Dino Cazares already did that with him Kemper.
> 
> IIRC he used the Axe FX to tone match some Demanufacture stems, then profiled that using the Kemper. And he rocked that until he got his custom Fortin JCM800.


i had axe fx captures on my kemper too. I also ditched the kemper for a tube amp lol


----------



## RevDrucifer

This has certainly been the most entertaining gear to hit the market I’ve seen yet. I remember back in the 90’s, my buddy and I were arguing over the Boss and DOD pedals. I believed Boss were better because they were built better and he believed DOD’s were better because they sounded the same and were cheaper to buy. I think the debate lasted about 10 minutes. 

For me to even entertain the idea of a QC, knowing what I know now, it’d have to at least match the quality of Fractal’s modeling. The fact that it isn’t as tweak-able is a HUGE downside to me because I’m one of those guys that enjoys the deeper editing. I just ‘discovered’ the Speaker Impedance Curve menu in my AxeIII over the weekend and holy shit! 

The idea that if I want to add IR’s from a 3rd party or even self-made IR’s, I have to download them first, then upload them to the cloud then download them to the QC is just fucking stupid. In the TGP thread, one guy from NDSP said the desktop editor will provide a cloudless experience, yet Doug said that “all files must go through the cloud” and no one has cleared that up yet, despite multiple questions. 

Ultimately, I want it to succeed because more great gear is good for everyone, not just QC buyers. It’d be great if the gear world/buyers learned a lesson in regards to how hype can cause a lot of discourse. They opened themselves up for the questioning/imposition/witch hunt with the claims they’ve made since the very start. To not deliver the product physically is one thing, but at this point, they won’t even be delivering it with features that were advertised at the very start. Surely the QC devotees can understand why there’s some doubt cast their way.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

RevDrucifer said:


> The idea that if I want to add IR’s from a 3rd party or even self-made IR’s, I have to download them first, then upload them to the cloud then download them to the QC is just fucking stupid. In the TGP thread, one guy from NDSP said the desktop editor will provide a cloudless experience, yet Doug said that “all files must go through the cloud” and no one has cleared that up yet, despite multiple questions.



That's a lot of extra steps. Is that so they get a copy of the IR themselves? Or does the public get access to anything you upload?


----------



## olejason

I don't think they've ever revealed _why _it's set up to work that way. I still think it may be security related and they want to make sure people can't sideload stuff to the hardware. All of the NDSP products were cracked recently, after most people thought they were unbreakable, and I've wondered if that triggered some delays. I hope I'm wrong though, ultimately people who want to steal stuff are going to find a way to do it if it's possible. It's unfortunate.


----------



## cardinal

RevDrucifer said:


> This has certainly been the most entertaining gear to hit the market I’ve seen yet. I remember back in the 90’s, my buddy and I were arguing over the Boss and DOD pedals. I believed Boss were better because they were built better and he believed DOD’s were better because they sounded the same and were cheaper to buy. I think the debate lasted about 10 minutes.
> 
> For me to even entertain the idea of a QC, knowing what I know now, it’d have to at least match the quality of Fractal’s modeling. The fact that it isn’t as tweak-able is a HUGE downside to me because I’m one of those guys that enjoys the deeper editing. I just ‘discovered’ the Speaker Impedance Curve menu in my AxeIII over the weekend and holy shit!
> 
> The idea that if I want to add IR’s from a 3rd party or even self-made IR’s, I have to download them first, then upload them to the cloud then download them to the QC is just fucking stupid. In the TGP thread, one guy from NDSP said the desktop editor will provide a cloudless experience, yet Doug said that “all files must go through the cloud” and no one has cleared that up yet, despite multiple questions.
> 
> Ultimately, I want it to succeed because more great gear is good for everyone, not just QC buyers. It’d be great if the gear world/buyers learned a lesson in regards to how hype can cause a lot of discourse. They opened themselves up for the questioning/imposition/witch hunt with the claims they’ve made since the very start. To not deliver the product physically is one thing, but at this point, they won’t even be delivering it with features that were advertised at the very start. Surely the QC devotees can understand why there’s some doubt cast their way.



OT, but the AFXIII speaker impedance curve is no joke. That should not be buried in that tiny menu in the back. Not sure how I found it, but it has an enormous impact on the amp block.


----------



## lewis

the way the internet and forums works in 2021, really means that Neural DSP could have just released this -







And people would still be going to war to defend "how fucking sick" the thing is


----------



## KnightBrolaire

lewis said:


> the way the internet and forums works in 2021, really means that Neural DSP could have just released this -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And people would still be going to war to defend "how fucking sick" the thing is


I still want one just for the sitar mode.


----------



## lewis

KnightBrolaire said:


> I still want one just for the sitar mode.


hahahahaa


----------



## Kaura

Sounds like someone got shilled into buying The Weapon.


----------



## Emperoff

olejason said:


> I don't think they've ever revealed _why _it's set up to work that way. I still think it may be security related and they want to make sure people can't sideload stuff to the hardware. All of the NDSP products were cracked recently, after most people thought they were unbreakable, and I've wondered if that triggered some delays. I hope I'm wrong though, ultimately people who want to steal stuff are going to find a way to do it if it's possible. It's unfortunate.


I'm not surprised. iLoK was cracked years ago. Any VST developer using it to avoid piracy is just buying (very expensive) time. Then you have people that refuses to buy VSTs where iLok is involved. So to me there is just no point 

There is a reason why Fractal Audio never released a VST version of the Axe-Fx. Now that NeuralDSP plugs haven been exposed, they probably want to reinforce security in their hardware platform, which is easier.


----------



## lewis

Kaura said:


> Sounds like someone got shilled into buying The Weapon.


anyone trying to promote that pedal IS an absolute weapon mate hahaha


----------



## olejason

Emperoff said:


> There is a reason why Fractal Audio never released a VST version of the Axe-Fx. Now that NeuralDSP plugs haven been exposed, they probably want to reinforce security in their hardware platform, which is easier.



Yeah it was just a matter of time but they did manage to make it a few years without being cracked. I've wondered if the mixed messaging on the use of the cloud is a result of them pivoting on how it all works in response to the cracks. If their original plan had been to verify purchases at the local system level, because no one had cracked versions of the plugins at that time, then that might explain the confusion around the whole process. It sucks either way as I'm sure if they put in "phone home" requirements to load stuff on to the hardware someone will eventually figure out a way to get around it.

I know it will never happen but if Fractal got into the plugin game it would be epic.


----------



## lewis

wait what have i missed?
Neural been cracked/pirated?


----------



## RevDrucifer

Lorcan Ward said:


> That's a lot of extra steps. Is that so they get a copy of the IR themselves? Or does the public get access to anything you upload?



From what I gather, only you can decide what other people can see in your cloud space, like posting something on FB and only allowing selected people to see it. I don't think NDSP is interested in stealing IR's, they probably had most companies sending them their IR's to come stock in the QC to begin with.


----------



## fantom

Emperoff said:


> I'm not surprised. iLoK was cracked years ago. Any VST developer using it to avoid piracy is just buying (very expensive) time. Then you have people that refuses to buy VSTs where iLok is involved. So to me there is just no point
> 
> There is a reason why Fractal Audio never released a VST version of the Axe-Fx. Now that NeuralDSP plugs haven been exposed, they probably want to reinforce security in their hardware platform, which is easier.



iLok is a big reason I wrote off the NeuralDSP plugins when they were being hyped. I have had too many bad experiences with companies making their software difficult to use by trying to copy protect it. It shouldn't be harder to install and run legal software over pirated software, and companies fail to realize this.

Just like music, people will download mp3s, some will buy. Put out a quality product and make the prices realistic. TBH, at this point, most people expect free software. If you get into the industry without a revenue plan that is independent of software, you probably won't last. This is especially true in a niche market.


----------



## ElRay

Yo Dawg! I heard you like profilers. So I profiled your profiler, so you can profile while profiling!


Emperoff said:


>


----------



## GunpointMetal

RevDrucifer said:


> The idea that if I want to add IR’s from a 3rd party or even self-made IR’s, I have to download them first, then upload them to the cloud then download them to the QC is just fucking stupid. In the TGP thread, one guy from NDSP said the desktop editor will provide a cloudless experience, yet Doug said that “all files must go through the cloud” and no one has cleared that up yet, despite multiple questions.


That's a pretty nonsense way to go about it, especially if the PC editor isn't even going to be ready at launch. Would you even be able to load your own IRs into the device? Does each user have a browser-based file storage location for cloud access? Seems like they'd need a lot of space if everyone is going to upload their IRs and files to the cloud to get them into the device, as well as being a mega-huge pain in the balls having to upload them via browser interface. I like the idea of cloud OPTIONS with this kind of gear, but IMO a dedicated software editor with local file storage is way more important than being able to connect it to Wi Fi.


----------



## laxu

RevDrucifer said:


> For me to even entertain the idea of a QC, knowing what I know now, it’d have to at least match the quality of Fractal’s modeling. The fact that it isn’t as tweak-able is a HUGE downside to me because I’m one of those guys that enjoys the deeper editing. I just ‘discovered’ the Speaker Impedance Curve menu in my AxeIII over the weekend and holy shit!
> 
> The idea that if I want to add IR’s from a 3rd party or even self-made IR’s, I have to download them first, then upload them to the cloud then download them to the QC is just fucking stupid. In the TGP thread, one guy from NDSP said the desktop editor will provide a cloudless experience, yet Doug said that “all files must go through the cloud” and no one has cleared that up yet, despite multiple questions.



Having gone through a few of the modelers I find that I don't miss the Fractal deep editing features at all. My only concern is if I can get the tones/feel I want out of a unit and that's been the case with the Yamaha THR100HD that has like 4 amp models and the same goes for the Helix. So I think I will enjoy the more straightforward approach of QC and if a model is not to my liking I can just try another or one of the various captures that will be available. There's so much you can do simply with the EQ blocks and QC will make editing those easier than ever.

My understanding is that when the desktop editor is released you can just upload IRs from that without the cloud in between. For captures they probably want you to use the cloud to prevent things like piracy for paid captures.

I hope that they create some sort of completely offline solution where you can download all your cloud content to your hard drive in an encrypted file and can then move its content (presets, captures, IRs) individually via the desktop editor to your QC as needed. Tie it with key pairs to the registered QC unit so it only works with that unit without registering another via the cloud. This would prevent you from sharing paid captures with your friends but lets you work on your QC without requiring an internet connection. Maybe this idea has some drawbacks I haven't considered but I feel it would be a reasonable way to reconcile the cloud requirement for those who want to keep their DAW system off the 'net. It would still work wirelessly too as long as you have a local wifi network (not connected to the internet) in place.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

fantom said:


> iLok is a big reason I wrote off the NeuralDSP plugins when they were being hyped. I have had too many bad experiences with companies making their software difficult to use by trying to copy protect it. It shouldn't be harder to install and run legal software over pirated software, and companies fail to realize this.



I don’t get the « hassle » argument. It’s basically 1-2 clicks and entering a password once, then you’re done. That’s my experience anyhow.

Not comparable to the workflow of uploading IRs to the QC, which seems like a hassle.


----------



## MrWulf

People overstated the annoyance of ilok. It doesnt really get in the way outside of the initial setup. Some of my plugins requires ilok (at least one required the damn dongle even) but it has been hassle free for the most part.

Software devs for the most part overestimate the amount of ppl that want to pirate their stuffs anyway. The majority of ppl would rather just buy vs jump through several hoops in order to find a working crack and continually update it. And also everyone really needs to realize that a pirated copy isnt a stolen copy. But human will be human.

Heck, FabFilter stuffs (THE plugin company if there's one) had been cracked for aeons since they dont use ilok but that never stop them from continuing to put out new and innovative products that isnt just an emulation of a hardware unit.

Back to QC tho, it is going to be a hassle for the majority of their customer if they are putting these procedures so that they can fight piracy. It is barking up the wrong tree and putting manpower in place where it shouldnt be.


----------



## Randy

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> I don’t get the « hassle » argument. It’s basically 1-2 clicks and entering a password once, then you’re done. That’s my experience anyhow.



Gets murky when you have limits on number of devices and they have to be registered for activation to work. I'm going through this right now because I added a PC to my workshop to keep from lugging my laptop in there everytime, and I hit the limit on a couple of my programs, my Dropbox, my VNC, etc.

There's also a lot of companies pushing two step authentication now, so enter possibility of not just having to have your phone handy when you activate it but also anytime you accidentally get logged/timed out.

There's also the likelihood of the device being tethered to the cloud and at the mercy of not just your internet connection but the reliability of their server. I've got an older Honeywell wifi thermostat in my house and occasionally their server will go offline and I can't change my temperature. The server is run as an afterthought so if it goes offline during business hours, it'll get powered back up pretty quick but if it happens overnight, you're waiting until the morning.

So no, anti-piracy mechanisms and being forced to live in the cloud are not entirely painless and they're not totally imagined scenarios either.


----------



## GunpointMetal

All software that you pay for (or hardware that requires software) SHOULD be able to be fully functional outside of network connection, IMO. Since most iLok software eliminated the dongle require and the license manager doesn't require a internet connection once something is registered its not as much of a pain. Every plugin manufacturer wanting you to install their installer home software is a PITA, though.


----------



## Randy

To be clear, I'm entirely in favor of companies protecting their IP from hackers obviously. It's just that Kemper, Fractal and Helix have have been successful at keeping their modeling from being stolen from their hardware despite being able to upload and download from their units locally, so it's unlikely that the QC would/should have that issue period. VST plugins are a totally different kettle of fish.

The QC cloud thing is 100% about capitalizing on the preset/profile industry. It's not about protecting IP, it's not about protecting authors/creators, it's not about protecting consumers. Let's just put that bullshit to rest and move on.


----------



## SamSam

Randy said:


> The QC cloud thing is 100% about capitalizing on the preset/profile industry. It's not about protecting IP, it's not about protecting authors/creators, it's not about protecting consumers. Let's just put that bullshit to rest and move on.



Beyond this I would also be surprised if 3rd party IR sellers didn't take issue with their IP being mandatorily uploaded onto a potential competitor's platform. It doesn't seem right that we would have to upload these files into storage managed by them.


----------



## c7spheres

SamSam said:


> Beyond this I would also be surprised if 3rd party IR sellers didn't take issue with their IP being mandatorily uploaded onto a potential competitor's platform. It doesn't seem right that we would have to upload these files into storage managed by them.



I wonder if users will even own their own presets. I bet all rights and ownership is lost just by purchasing the unit and using it and uploading to the site too. Lot's of companies do this now. You never actually own anything, you only have a license to use something, terms are subject to change at anytime without notice etc. It's probably all deep down in the fine print somewhere online where it can't be found. I blame Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. I have no basis for what I say, I just don't trust dem computerz stuff : )


----------



## Randy

SamSam said:


> Beyond this I would also be surprised if 3rd party IR sellers didn't take issue with their IP being mandatorily uploaded onto a potential competitor's platform. It doesn't seem right that we would have to upload these files into storage managed by them.



That might be the next thing, monetizing the IRs.


----------



## Elric

GunpointMetal said:


> All software that you pay for (or hardware that requires software) SHOULD be able to be fully functional outside of network connection, IMO. Since most iLok software eliminated the dongle require and the license manager doesn't require a internet connection once something is registered its not as much of a pain. Every plugin manufacturer wanting you to install their installer home software is a PITA, though.


The one thing I would note w/ iLok is if you register something to your computer (rather than a dongle) and that computer gets a hardware repair that involves a motherboard swap that can cause huge problems with iLok based stuff. I had this happen and there is literally no way to free the license. It is lost. 

You have to go contact support for every iLok based plugin you have and explain the situation and get them to issue a new license and reinstall the license. If the plugin maker is out of business or offline or refuses to reissue a license for any reason you no longer have that plugin. 

They generally advise you if you are getting a computer repaired or retiring one in some way, you should go to iLok and unregister any plugin licenses tied to that machine but in a repair situation this is not always possible. This can be true of other schemes too but it is definitely true of iLok because it happened to me.


----------



## Spicypickles

In a year they’ll be charging you guys a monthly subscription just to power it on.


----------



## narad

Elric said:


> The one thing I would note w/ iLok is if you register something to your computer (rather than a dongle) and that computer gets a hardware repair that involves a motherboard swap that can cause huge problems with iLok based stuff. I had this happen and there is literally no way to free the license. It is lost.
> 
> You have to go contact support for every iLok based plugin you have and explain the situation and get them to issue a new license and reinstall the license. If the plugin maker is out of business or offline or refuses to reissue a license for any reason you no longer have that plugin.
> 
> They generally advise you if you are getting a computer repaired or retiring one in some way, you should go to iLok and unregister any plugin licenses tied to that machine but in a repair situation this is not always possible. This can be true of other schemes too but it is definitely true of iLok because it happened to me.



Exactly. This is how Giuliani wound up in possession of Hunter Biden's embarrassing neuralDSP presets.


----------



## SamSam

c7spheres said:


> I wonder if users will even own their own presets. I bet all rights and ownership is lost just by purchasing the unit and using it and uploading to the site too. Lot's of companies do this now. You never actually own anything, you only have a license to use something, terms are subject to change at anytime without notice etc. It's probably all deep down in the fine print somewhere online where it can't be found. I blame Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. I have no basis for what I say, I just don't trust dem computerz stuff : )



I'll disregard the facetiousness of your post and highlight that I am was only commenting on the fact that products we have purchased from a 3rd party, such as IRs (which cannot be reproduced exactly by another user like a preset can) would have to be uploaded onto their server. I think that a company (which is not signing any agreement to have their IP handled by NDSP) may have concerns about this, it could effectively provide NDSP with a lot of commercial material in an illicit manner.

It's not about "dem computerz" or whatever nonsense you are purporting. It would be in effect no different to you purchasing an IR bundle and then uploading it onto Pirate Bay, the action is the same although the consequences may differ. You are still sharing it with a third party that has no legal entitlement to it.


----------



## c7spheres

SamSam said:


> I'll disregard the facetiousness of your post and highlight that I am was only commenting on the fact that products we have purchased from a 3rd party, such as IRs (which cannot be reproduced exactly by another user like a preset can) would have to be uploaded onto their server. I think that a company (which is not signing any agreement to have their IP handled by NDSP) may have concerns about this, it could effectively provide NDSP with a lot of commercial material in an illicit manner.
> 
> It's not about "dem computerz" or whatever nonsense you are purporting. It would be in effect no different to you purchasing an IR bundle and then uploading it onto Pirate Bay, the action is the same although the consequences may differ. You are still sharing it with a third party that has no legal entitlement to it.



- True, There could be legal implications. The whole scenario just seems to be a hassle for everyone except NDSP. It also seems completely unnecessary since (as someone mentioned before) the competitors are doing it without the hassles and doing well. 
- It seems that NDSP is handling the product like a piece of software in the computer industry marketed towards computer users that plan to upgrade every few years (like Apple), rather than a hardware product market towards guitar players (like an amp company or even a company like Digitech or Boss etc that mostly deals in effects processors and pedals). 
- Now that I typed it out it makes perfect sense for them to do it this way, because they are a software company with a hardware product being market towards computer end users that play guitar. They are not a guitar electronics company marketing to guitarists. You just know eveyone's gonna have this foot pedal on their desktop and not on the floor : ) 
- I basically see them trying to be more like an IK MultiMedia doing a Guitar Rig type thing, but on a higher level of sound quaity. I bet if they can make the Quad Cortex a success then they'll probably be a major threat to competitors.


----------



## SamSam

I'm totally ok with paying for extra features, as long as they are beyond what was advertised and offer both high quality and quantity.

If down the line they want to charge a fair sum for some really unique features or a decent collection of high quality amps and effects (it would have to be a lot though, not trickle feeding 2 a quarter) I wouldn't be top bothered.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Kind of unrelated but I tried out all the ampsims that neural have today that I don't already own (figured feck it, I was downloading the trial for the gojira plugin anyway). 

The Nameless and NTS are still not my cuppa tea, I dont vibe with any of the bass stuff but everything afterwards is sweet. Really vibing on the Omega, the Plini and the Abasi in that order.

I think I might prefer them over the Cali or Nolly that I have already purchased. The gojira sim is also really good. 

If they ever make something like the HX stomp at a cheaper price point with no profiling they might just win me back as a customer in the hardware domain.


----------



## c7spheres

I honestly haven't got to far into researching the Quad Cortex, but from what vibe I'm getting it seems everyone that likes the plugins is wanting those (or that quality) inside the hardware package of the Quad cortex, yet it seems NDSP aren't quite there yet. I bet they get there eventually. I could be totally wrong about all this but it's the overall vibe I'm getting.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

c7spheres said:


> I honestly haven't got to far into researching the Quad Cortex, but from what vibe I'm getting it seems everyone that likes the plugins is wanting those (or that quality) inside the hardware package of the Quad cortex, yet it seems NDSP aren't quite there yet. I bet they get there eventually. I could be totally wrong about all this but it's the overall vibe I'm getting.



I'm sure they arent a million miles off, people just have higher expectations when they are forking out 1.6k (at least in europe). IF you wan to charge that much your hardware needs to sound closer to the competition. 

The Axe FX sounds and feels objectively better than the neural plugins (IMO), but at about 100 euros a pop the plugins are much more palatable for the average person and therefore expectations aren't as high. I don't mind a plugin costing 100 odd euros being 10% or 5% shy of the axe fx, but if you're charging a premium people are going to scrutinise it more. 

I think a lot of it has to do with psychology tbh.


----------



## Emperoff

Ataraxia2320 said:


> I'm sure they arent a million miles off, people just have higher expectations when they are forking out 1.6k (at least in europe). IF you wan to charge that much your hardware needs to sound closer to the competition.
> 
> The Axe FX sounds and feels objectively better than the neural plugins (IMO), but at about 100 euros a pop the plugins are much more palatable for the average person and therefore expectations aren't as high. I don't mind a plugin costing 100 odd euros being 10% or 5% shy of the axe fx, but if you're charging a premium people are going to scrutinise it more.
> 
> I think a lot of it has to do with psychology tbh.



It's quite simple, actually. If it's going to be 60% more expensive than the competition, I'd expect it to sound better, not worse.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Emperoff said:


> It's quite simple, actually. If it's going to be 60% more expensive than the competition, I'd expect it to sound better, not worse.



It's not 60% more expensive than the competition though? 

FM3 is 1266. QC is 1555.


----------



## Emperoff

Ataraxia2320 said:


> It's not 60% more expensive than the competition though?
> 
> FM3 is 1266. QC is 1555.



This again? 1266€ are 1500$. The Axe-FM3 is 999$ in the US. G66 increasing the price a whopping 50% is not an FM3 feature.

Funny thing is that the QC is 1600€ _*AND*_ 1600$ dollars (not 2000$ which is what 1600€ are). So NeuralDSP doesn't even need greedy distributors for ripping off EU customers.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Emperoff said:


> This again? 1266€ are 1500$. The Axe-FM3 is 999$ in the US. G66 increasing the price a whopping 50% is not an FM3 feature.
> 
> Funny thing is that the QC is 1600€ _*AND*_ 1600$ dollars (not 2000$ which is what 1600€ are). So NeuralDSP doesn't even need greedy distributors for ripping off EU customers.



They have to pay import duties too, I wouldn't be surprised if g66 is making very little from each axefx purchase.

At the end of the day as Europeans both of us are well used to being screwed over on pricing. The only thing we need to focus on are the actual final prices. One is 1266, the other 1555.


----------



## Randy

Is it too soon to say that QC customers should get a break on the plugins? Positive Grid gives a free Bias Amp license for both desktop and mobiile that binds to the Bias Head serial, and auto upgrades to newest version. 

It's not a lot to ask as a perk for a flagship piece of hardware.


----------



## broangiel

Randy said:


> Is it too soon to say that QC customers should get a break on the plugins? Positive Grid gives a free Bias Amp license for both desktop and mobiile that binds to the Bias Head serial, and auto upgrades to newest version.
> 
> It's not a lot to ask as a perk for a flagship piece of hardware.


I agree that it seems reasonable. However, I don't believe it will happen for two reasons:

I'm sure there's some kind of royalty payment due to the namesakes of each plugin. Not only would giving the plugin away cost a potential sale for NDSP, it also brings up the question of the royalty payment: does NDSP pay the namesake, or does the namesake also forego payment?
The whole idea of loading the plugins into the QC will drive people to try and potentially buy them to have the plugins and their familiar sounds in a portable form factor. I could see plugin sales increasing as the QC release ramps for that reason.
For your average person, I think the best course of action is to use the demo, find some good sounds, then Capture those sounds. Those won't expire like the demo.


----------



## budda

Just saw qc is $2100cad plus tax.

Yikes.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

@Randy Good points, I totally agree. I deal with 2 and 3 factor authentification every day at work and it’s a pain in the ass.

My « no hassle » comment was only concerning the use of iLok with Neural plugins, not a general claim on all anti-piracy measures for all software/hardware.



budda said:


> Just saw qc is $2100cad plus tax.
> 
> Yikes.



You can get an FM3 for about half and an AxeFx3 for about 500$ more. Weird price.


----------



## Randy




----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> This again? 1266€ are 1500$. The Axe-FM3 is 999$ in the US. G66 increasing the price a whopping 50% is not an FM3 feature.
> 
> Funny thing is that the QC is 1600€ _*AND*_ 1600$ dollars (not 2000$ which is what 1600€ are). So NeuralDSP doesn't even need greedy distributors for ripping off EU customers.



US folks don't pay VAT whereas that 1600 euros is with VAT baked in. Without VAT for my country it would be ~1215 euros or ~$1468.

In the same vein the G66 price for the FM3 includes VAT, without VAT it is ~1064 euros or $1285. Dealers need to make profit as well and Fractal probably does not allow me to order it directly from them to Finland.

In the EU there is less price difference between the QC and FM3 compared to the US.


----------



## lurè

SamSam said:


> Beyond this I would also be surprised if 3rd party IR sellers didn't take issue with their IP being mandatorily uploaded onto a potential competitor's platform. It doesn't seem right that we would have to upload these files into storage managed by them.



I can't imagine Ownhammer uploading IR packs on QC cloud when you can just buy them from their website.


----------



## laxu

lurè said:


> I can't imagine Ownhammer uploading IR packs on QC cloud when you can just buy them from their website.



If users can buy them directly from the QC cloud then yes they should, even if NDSP takes a cut (which is still completely unknown). The convenience of one button purchase and install is significant and makes it more likely for people to just buy things and try when there are as few hoops as possible to jump through. It's just another way to sell stuff and there is no benefit to Ownhammer etc for NOT offering the option.


----------



## budda

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> @Randy Good points, I totally agree. I deal with 2 and 3 factor authentification every day at work and it’s a pain in the ass.
> 
> My « no hassle » comment was only concerning the use of iLok with Neural plugins, not a general claim on all anti-piracy measures for all software/hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get an FM3 for about half and an AxeFx3 for about 500$ more. Weird price.



All the axe fx 3's I've seen listed have been around $3k. I don't know if they've sold for that. But yeah.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> I agree that it seems reasonable. However, I don't believe it will happen for two reasons:
> 
> I'm sure there's some kind of royalty payment due to the namesakes of each plugin. Not only would giving the plugin away cost a potential sale for NDSP, it also brings up the question of the royalty payment: does NDSP pay the namesake, or does the namesake also forego payment?
> The whole idea of loading the plugins into the QC will drive people to try and potentially buy them to have the plugins and their familiar sounds in a portable form factor. I could see plugin sales increasing as the QC release ramps for that reason.
> For your average person, I think the best course of action is to use the demo, find some good sounds, then Capture those sounds. Those won't expire like the demo.



I agree with this as well. It would be a good perk for existing owners but I also understand business things may get in the wya. Maybe they can at least offer a discount similar to how Line6 discounts the Helix Native software for hardware owners?

I've tried nearly all of the NDSP plugins and they are mostly about their preset setups rather than the amps and fx. For example pretty much everything in the Nolly plugin you can do already with the shipping features of the QC.

On TGP NDSP said that a Dumble model is also coming to the QC when they manage to get more time to verify against the real amp, which makes the Cory Wong plugin less enticing. None of the others do anything so particularly impressive that you could not replicate the tones with existing amp, fx models and captures.

Last year when the NDSP plugins were on sale I tried to see if I could replicate my favorite tone in I think some Nolly preset using Helix Native and ML Sound Labs MIKKO cab sim. I could get very close just by choosing a similar cab in MIKKO and setting its mic positions and models to similar settings. But the difference is that on the NDSP someone else had done the work for me so it gets you started real quick once you find a preset that clicks with your preferences.

Before the plugins are available on QC or if you don't want to pay for them, you will just have to do the work yourself to get similar tones.


----------



## AboutBlank

Ataraxia2320 said:


> They have to pay import duties too, I wouldn't be surprised if g66 is making very little from each axefx purchase.



Having worked in distribuition in pretty much the same sector I can assure you that this is absolutely not the case!


----------



## Emperoff

Randy said:


> View attachment 90361



Is that Laxu?


----------



## technomancer

Not sure how waiting a year to see how it goes is being "sold"  I've got no dog in the fight as I already bought an FM3, but watching this whole thing is a great comedy. 



Randy said:


> View attachment 90361





Emperoff said:


> Is that Laxu?


----------



## Ataraxia2320

AboutBlank said:


> Having worked in distribuition in pretty much the same sector I can assure you that this is absolutely not the case!



You learn something new every day.


----------



## Jammer

budda said:


> All the axe fx 3's I've seen listed have been around $3k. I don't know if they've sold for that. But yeah.


Actually most of the people selling AF3’s are either high or hoping someone will carelessly overpay for the unreasonable prices they are asking. I see the original AF3 model, not the AF3 MKII model used listed for more than the price of a brand new MKII model or at least maybe only $100 less than the brand new price which is ridiculous.


----------



## Spinedriver

budda said:


> All the axe fx 3's I've seen listed have been around $3k. I don't know if they've sold for that. But yeah.



It's just all a part of living in Canada and our weak ass dollar, not to mention whatever import taxes & whatnot that apply. Nothing is more depressing than seeing a ton of new gear reviews/demos of things and them saying 'I can't believe it's only $____ !!!'. People were freaking out that the Pod GO is only $449 ! Add $200 plus 15% sales tax and it's not such a great deal anymore. Not only that but a lot of those high end units (FM3, AXE II, etc...) can barely be found new around here let alone a used one.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

budda said:


> All the axe fx 3's I've seen listed have been around $3k. I don't know if they've sold for that. But yeah.



On Fractal’s site the Axe3 MKII is currently at 2100 USD = ~2650 CAD.

But yeah, Neural’s choice of price bracket for the QC makes it compete with floor and non-floor units, which doesn’t seem like a sound strategy. But what do I know...


----------



## budda

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> On Fractal’s site the Axe3 MKII is currently at 2100 USD = ~2650 CAD.
> 
> But yeah, Neural’s choice of price bracket for the QC makes it compete with floor and non-floor units, which doesn’t seem like a sound strategy. But what do I know...



I dunno if our dollar is any better, but I think its around $2800cad before taxes and shipping and 3.5% to the credit card people. I think it was going to be around $3500 shipped to my door for a brand new one. Had it been $3200 i wouldnt have hesitated .

It sucks that I have to pay tax on it online but if I went to NY and ordered it, just shipping .


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> It sucks that I have to pay tax on it online but if I went to NY and ordered it, just shipping .


 Pretty much all online transactions in the US have tax attached to them now. It's a huge pain in the ass for online sellers because you have to charge the state tax where it is going to, then report those taxes to each state.


----------



## Randy

GunpointMetal said:


> Pretty much all online transactions in the US have tax attached to them now. It's a huge pain in the ass for online sellers because you have to charge the state tax where it is going to, then report those taxes to each state.



I assume that is if you're selling direct as opposed to ebay and reverb? Because through those places, I see the seller getting charged tax but it never passes through me.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Randy said:


> I assume that is if you're selling direct as opposed to ebay and reverb? Because through those places, I see the seller getting charged tax but it never passes through me.


 Yeah, eBay handles it for everyone if they're individual sellers or smaller stores. If you're the platform, the seller is responsible.


----------



## fantom

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> I don’t get the « hassle » argument. It’s basically 1-2 clicks and entering a password once, then you’re done. That’s my experience anyhow.
> 
> Not comparable to the workflow of uploading IRs to the QC, which seems like a hassle.





MrWulf said:


> People overstated the annoyance of ilok. It doesnt really get in the way outside of the initial setup. Some of my plugins requires ilok (at least one required the damn dongle even) but it has been hassle free for the most part



If you have iLok installed and a stable internet connection, sure... You probably have a mostly ok experience.

As one example, around the time Steinberg switched from the USB lock to iLok, I spent over 3 hours trying to get the Cubase to run because it just crashed, with no useful error message, without iLok installed. Nowhere on their webpage at the time was a link to the iLok installer. The insaller didn't check if dependencies were installed. I had to wait on hold and get someone on the phone to help me debug it. I guess they never tried to install Cubase on a fresh computer without iLok installed to realize it was a terrible user experience.

For comparison, I installed Studio One with zero issues. I literally switched that weekend and never looked back.

Anyone around when Steam first launched with Half Life 2 may also remember not being able to play the game for several days due to Steam authentication issues. More ridiculously, you couldn't play the game if you had purchased a physical copy from the store due to Steam issues.


----------



## Flappydoodle

It would be great if @Doug Castro could come and help answer some of the questions

Right now everybody is filling in the blanks for themselves, and that's never a good thing.

The worshippers will take the best possible interpretation. The haters will take the worst. And everybody will end up being disappointed because of the expectations set.

If the product is shipping and people are paying for product, I think we deserve to know how exactly the cloud stuff will work, how purchases, trials, refunds of profiles will work, when/if our existing NDSP plugins will be available, etc etc etc. I don't want to place an order and then find out this thing is crippled.


----------



## broangiel

Flappydoodle said:


> It would be great if @Doug Castro could come and help answer some of the questions
> 
> Right now everybody is filling in the blanks for themselves, and that's never a good thing.
> 
> The worshippers will take the best possible interpretation. The haters will take the worst. And everybody will end up being disappointed because of the expectations set.
> 
> If the product is shipping and people are paying for product, I think we deserve to know how exactly the cloud stuff will work, how purchases, trials, refunds of profiles will work, when/if our existing NDSP plugins will be available, etc etc etc. I don't want to place an order and then find out this thing is crippled.


That’s why I canceled my preorder. I’m not out for good, but I’m definitely out until I see how things take shape.


----------



## Emperoff

TBH what we know so far smells too much like Apple of guitar gear. And that's not good.


----------



## laxu

Flappydoodle said:


> If the product is shipping and people are paying for product, I think we deserve to know how exactly the cloud stuff will work, how purchases, trials, refunds of profiles will work, when/if our existing NDSP plugins will be available, etc etc etc. I don't want to place an order and then find out this thing is crippled.



My understanding is that none of that will be in place on release. There will only be free content to download which can be public (available to everyone) or private (available only to you or a select group of people). They have said that the cloud functionality will be free so you won't have to buy anything if you don't want to.

As for the plugins, the word seems to be "sometime after release".

The release capabilities of the hardware are pretty much known. 

Read the manual for what it can do and how it operates on release.
This is the list of amp, fx, cab etc models installed on it when it releases, with more to come in future updates.
This is the list of factory captures on release, with more to come in future updates.
These are the compatible expression pedals.
Desktop editor is coming after release.
Release timeline at the time of writing is "We hope to begin taking payments for pre-orders in mid March 2021 for shipment by the end of March 2021. Shortly after, we also expect to ship stock to dealers for them to fulfil to their customers starting at the end of March 2021."
The way I see it, you either buy it for what it can do on release or wait for whatever features or functionalities are important to you and consider it on a later date.

I am not in any way affiliated with NeuralDSP other than living in the same country. I'm just a guy who has a QC on preorder so I've read and watched a ton of content on it which is why I am probably the most prolific poster in this thread to the point that someone called me a shill. Which is bullshit, shame on you.


----------



## budda

Shill.


----------



## cardinal

I'm not buying one of these, but really I wouldn't assume this company or anyone really has bad intentions until proven otherwise. 

These are some the Darkglass folks right? That company is fine. I'm sure the QC will sound fine and will function properly once they get it ironed out. The work flow sounds different but if you don't like it, no big deal. There is other stuff that sounds fine too.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> TBH what we know so far smells too much like Apple of guitar gear. And that's not good.



This is pretty much what came to mind. Showing interest is fine, but in some communities I'm seeing a cult like obsession for a piece of gear that isn't even out yet, and by some reports isn't even fully finished.


----------



## Flappydoodle

laxu said:


> My understanding is that none of that will be in place on release. There will only be free content to download which can be public (available to everyone) or private (available only to you or a select group of people). They have said that the cloud functionality will be free so you won't have to buy anything if you don't want to.
> 
> As for the plugins, the word seems to be "sometime after release".
> 
> The release capabilities of the hardware are pretty much known.
> 
> Read the manual for what it can do and how it operates on release.
> This is the list of amp, fx, cab etc models installed on it when it releases, with more to come in future updates.
> This is the list of factory captures on release, with more to come in future updates.
> These are the compatible expression pedals.
> Desktop editor is coming after release.
> Release timeline at the time of writing is "We hope to begin taking payments for pre-orders in mid March 2021 for shipment by the end of March 2021. Shortly after, we also expect to ship stock to dealers for them to fulfil to their customers starting at the end of March 2021."
> The way I see it, you either buy it for what it can do on release or wait for whatever features or functionalities are important to you and consider it on a later date.
> 
> I am not in any way affiliated with NeuralDSP other than living in the same country. I'm just a guy who has a QC on preorder so I've read and watched a ton of content on it which is why I am probably the most prolific poster in this thread to the point that someone called me a shill. Which is bullshit, shame on you.



Thanks for the reply. I think what I find difficult to swallow is that so many things are simply unknown.

I did look through the manual, and really I think it's a great looking product with a great feature set. It's the first of these modelling units that I would consider owning (though I have plenty of experience with Kemper, AxeFX etc). 

The problem is, as I laid out in my post, a lot of the "service" aspect is unknown, and those are huge determining features - like the cloud profiles, the function of the NDSP "App Store" etc. In fact, we didn't know it was an App Store until people started discussing it here. And that's another part of the problem - plans changed, things are delayed or changed (which is fair enough), but the communication hasn't been clear. I'm on their mailing list but haven't seen any of these things discussed. Nor is it on their website. I'm not saying you're making it up, but you're saying "they have said that the cloud functionality etc etc" - but I have no idea where you got that information. I presume some other forum where NDSP might be more active?

So basically, I'll sit this out for a while, see what the situation is, then make a decision.


----------



## Randy

Flappydoodle said:


> Thanks for the reply. I think what I find difficult to swallow is that so many things are simply unknown.
> 
> I did look through the manual, and really I think it's a great looking product with a great feature set. It's the first of these modelling units that I would consider owning (though I have plenty of experience with Kemper, AxeFX etc).
> 
> The problem is, as I laid out in my post, a lot of the "service" aspect is unknown, and those are huge determining features - like the cloud profiles, the function of the NDSP "App Store" etc. In fact, we didn't know it was an App Store until people started discussing it here. And that's another part of the problem - plans changed, things are delayed or changed (which is fair enough), but the communication hasn't been clear. I'm on their mailing list but haven't seen any of these things discussed. Nor is it on their website. I'm not saying you're making it up, but you're saying "they have said that the cloud functionality etc etc" - but I have no idea where you got that information. I presume some other forum where NDSP might be more active?
> 
> So basically, I'll sit this out for a while, see what the situation is, then make a decision.



Doug posts much more in The Gear Page thread, which is much more, um, Quad Cortex friendly.

Despite the hand wringing of Neural apologists in here, I think this thread is more QC agnostic than anything.


----------



## broangiel

Randy said:


> Doug posts much more in The Gear Page thread, which is much more, um, Quad Cortex friendly.
> 
> Despite the hand wringing of Neural apologists in here, I think this thread is more QC agnostic than anything.


The TGP thread is unbearable. My favorite part of it is how, anyone who has made a video that isn't an absolutely glowing review of the QC automatically has their integrity and intentions fall into question. Similarly, any poster who does anything but praise Doug and the QC is mocked and told to beat it, and I know of at least one person who was thread-banned for it. It's wild. Then they talk about the cult-like followings of FAS, L6, and KPA, as if they have no self-awareness. Boy, was I glad to have a reason to stop following that thread.


----------



## mikah912

broangiel said:


> The TGP thread is unbearable. My favorite part of it is how, anyone who has made a video that isn't an absolutely glowing review of the QC automatically has their integrity and intentions fall into question. Similarly, any poster who does anything but praise Doug and the QC is mocked and told to beat it, and I know of at least one person who was thread-banned for it. It's wild. Then they talk about the cult-like followings of FAS, L6, and KPA, as if they have no self-awareness. Boy, was I glad to have a reason to stop following that thread.



Uh, you know people like myself hang out at both forums, right?

I think "discussing the discussers" is a silly tangent. And I feel the same way about people who want to profile Fractal customers, Line 6 customers, whatever. 

Anyway, still waiting patiently and optimistically about this product. I like most of the videos I've seen this far, and Neural has earned quite a bit of good faith as a company between the plugins and their Dark glass pedigree.


----------



## broangiel

mikah912 said:


> Uh, you know people like myself hang out at both forums, right?
> 
> I think "discussing the discussers" is a silly tangent. And I feel the same way about people who want to profile Fractal customers, Line 6 customers, whatever.
> 
> Anyway, still waiting patiently and optimistically about this product. I like most of the videos I've seen this far, and Neural has earned quite a bit of good faith as a company between the plugins and their Dark glass pedigree.


I’m very aware, but I don’t see how it matters. There are several of us in this thread that bounce back and forth between the two forums.


----------



## Emperoff

mikah912 said:


> Uh, you know people like myself hang out at both forums, right?
> 
> I think "discussing the discussers" is a silly tangent. And I feel the same way about people who want to profile Fractal customers, Line 6 customers, whatever.
> 
> Anyway, still waiting patiently and optimistically about this product. I like most of the videos I've seen this far, and Neural has earned quite a bit of good faith as a company between the plugins and their Dark glass pedigree.



We are aware. Everytime someone mentions TGP around here, a salty TGP regular shows up.


----------



## laxu

The TGP thread has a lot of nonsense to filter through but it's the place to find the latest info and YT content people manage to dig up.

This Japanese video is pretty good and shows off a lot more of the unit than just captures captures captures. You can use the auto translate option for subtitles.



To me the great things here are how the cab and parametric EQ blocks operate. Those are so much easier to use than on any other modeler where it's those awful IR lists or having to tweak a bunch of bands one by one whereas here you just drag stuff around until it sounds good to you.


----------



## mikah912

Emperoff said:


> We are aware. Everytime someone mentions TGP around here, a salty TGP regular shows up.



If it's salty there, I'm likely to die of high blood pressure here. 

It's all good. I love SSO, and I think the QC will be just fine. You guys seen the latest Sweetwater vid? Very much oriented to modern prog metal tastes, and I think it sounds awesome:


----------



## Deadpool_25

c7spheres said:


> I honestly haven't got to far into researching the Quad Cortex, but from what vibe I'm getting it seems everyone that likes the plugins is wanting those (or that quality) inside the hardware package of the Quad cortex, yet it seems NDSP aren't quite there yet. I bet they get there eventually. I could be totally wrong about all this but it's the overall vibe I'm getting.



I’m pretty sure I posted about this a long time ago. I believe I said something about wishing there was a pedal I could just load the NDSP sounds into. And here it is I guess. I don’t need the capture ability, and don’t even really need the models they’ve developed for the QC. 

I own the Cali, Plini, Nolly, and Cory Wong plugins. I really just wanted the ability to easily mix and match components from those (I’m sure I’d buy the Abasi and Gojira plugins too) inside a floor-based unit.

The QC is certainly way beyond what I was hoping for. So much so that I’m not sure how I feel about getting one lol


----------



## Deadpool_25

broangiel said:


> That’s why I canceled my preorder. I’m not out for good, but I’m definitely out until I see how things take shape.



Same. I’m almost always an early adopter but this time I think I’d better wait a while. As usual I’m cautiously optimistic, but this time I guess I’m a little more cautious lol



laxu said:


> I am not in any way affiliated with NeuralDSP. I'm just a guy who has a QC on preorder so I've read and watched a ton of content on it which is why I am probably the most prolific poster in this thread to the point that someone called me a shill. Which is bullshit, shame on you.



Speaking from personal experience on this site...just wait. You’ll know you’ve made it when accused of being Doug Castro


----------



## RevDrucifer

laxu said:


> Having gone through a few of the modelers I find that I don't miss the Fractal deep editing features at all. My only concern is if I can get the tones/feel I want out of a unit and that's been the case with the Yamaha THR100HD that has like 4 amp models and the same goes for the Helix. So I think I will enjoy the more straightforward approach of QC and if a model is not to my liking I can just try another or one of the various captures that will be available. There's so much you can do simply with the EQ blocks and QC will make editing those easier than ever.
> 
> My understanding is that when the desktop editor is released you can just upload IRs from that without the cloud in between. For captures they probably want you to use the cloud to prevent things like piracy for paid captures.
> 
> I hope that they create some sort of completely offline solution where you can download all your cloud content to your hard drive in an encrypted file and can then move its content (presets, captures, IRs) individually via the desktop editor to your QC as needed. Tie it with key pairs to the registered QC unit so it only works with that unit without registering another via the cloud. This would prevent you from sharing paid captures with your friends but lets you work on your QC without requiring an internet connection. Maybe this idea has some drawbacks I haven't considered but I feel it would be a reasonable way to reconcile the cloud requirement for those who want to keep their DAW system off the 'net. It would still work wirelessly too as long as you have a local wifi network (not connected to the internet) in place.



Doug’s comment of “All files must go through the cloud” is what’s making me think we’ll still have to upload IR’s. He hasn’t seemed to have walked that back yet. 

And obviously, EQ’s have worked with amps for dozens of years now and plenty of people are satisfied just using those. I prefer the sandbox approach of being able to do whatever I want with it. Most of my tweaking time is spent in other areas outside of the Authentic/Ideal page in my AxeFX, I get it about 85% of the way there with those pages pretty quickly, but then spend a little more time tweaking the other components to get what I’m going for.

Really, I’m trying to create the best Marshall Boogie Plexifier I can. If I thought I’d be content with a simpler approach, I would have gone with a Helix.


----------



## RevDrucifer

laxu said:


> If users can buy them directly from the QC cloud then yes they should, even if NDSP takes a cut (which is still completely unknown). The convenience of one button purchase and install is significant and makes it more likely for people to just buy things and try when there are as few hoops as possible to jump through. It's just another way to sell stuff and there is no benefit to Ownhammer etc for NOT offering the option.



Unless OH has to take a cut in profit by selling them through the cloud. IE- if they’re $10 a pack on OH’s site and NDSP wants to take a piece of that for selling them through their store, does OH compensate and raise the price, or do they take a hit just for selling them through the cloud?


----------



## Randy

RevDrucifer said:


> Unless OH has to take a cut in profit by selling them through the cloud. IE- if they’re $10 a pack on OH’s site and NDSP wants to take a piece of that for selling them through their store, does OH compensate and raise the price, or do they take a hit just for selling them through the cloud?



My assumption is that they split the difference. I have a couple guys I've done business with across multiple platforms, one would be Philadelphia Luthier which iv bought from direct, through Reverb, Ebay and Amazon and there prices are pretty much all the same-ish. Merchant fees are negligible, so they're usually only shifting pricing if they're encouraging/discouraging buying through one place or the other but usually they're the same or within cents of eachother. 

I'd imagine what kinda cut NDSP wants makes a big difference on what the pricing looks like or if these guys like Own hammer want to participate at all. I think the Apple analogy lines up we there. There's a few developers that have had issues specifically trying to sell on their app store but it's case by case.


----------



## Flappydoodle

RevDrucifer said:


> Unless OH has to take a cut in profit by selling them through the cloud. IE- if they’re $10 a pack on OH’s site and NDSP wants to take a piece of that for selling them through their store, does OH compensate and raise the price, or do they take a hit just for selling them through the cloud?



Again, that's an App Store model. OH might be happy to take a reduction in exchange for their product being available very easily to a large user base.


----------



## BTS

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m pretty sure I posted about this a long time ago. I believe I said something about wishing there was a pedal I could just load the NDSP sounds into. And here it is I guess. I don’t need the capture ability, and don’t even really need the models they’ve developed for the QC.
> 
> I own the Cali, Plini, Nolly, and Cory Wong plugins. I really just wanted the ability to easily mix and match components from those (I’m sure I’d buy the Abasi and Gojira plugins too) inside a floor-based unit.
> 
> The QC is certainly way beyond what I was hoping for. So much so that I’m not sure how I feel about getting one lol



I hear you. I was hoping for a standalone unit that would allow me to run NDSP plugins... as you say, the QC is soooo far beyond this and the price reflects it... putting it likely beyond my means/needs.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m pretty sure I posted about this a long time ago. I believe I said something about wishing there was a pedal I could just load the NDSP sounds into. And here it is I guess. I don’t need the capture ability, and don’t even really need the models they’ve developed for the QC.
> 
> I own the Cali, Plini, Nolly, and Cory Wong plugins. I really just wanted the ability to easily mix and match components from those (I’m sure I’d buy the Abasi and Gojira plugins too) inside a floor-based unit.
> 
> The QC is certainly way beyond what I was hoping for. So much so that I’m not sure how I feel about getting one lol



I'd wager that what you describe fits the needs of the majority of their market, me included. At this point, I'm just hoping for a desktop app centralizing all plugins to mix and match.




budda said:


> I dunno if our dollar is any better, but I think its around $2800cad before taxes and shipping and 3.5% to the credit card people. I think it was going to be around $3500 shipped to my door for a brand new one. Had it been $3200 i wouldnt have hesitated .
> 
> It sucks that I have to pay tax on it online but if I went to NY and ordered it, just shipping .



Yeah it sucks for sure. I paid around 3300$, but I ordered when the US dollar was low.


----------



## Flappydoodle

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> At this point, I'm just hoping for a desktop app centralizing all plugins to mix and match.



Does your DAW not let you do this? I've been doing this in Logic.

Since you can disable each section of the NDSP plugins separately, you could easily run the 33 from Nameless into the 5150 from Nolly into the Omega cab. As long as your computer is reasonably capable, it should be able to handle that chain - and a standalone "loader" plugin probably wouldn't be lighter anyway.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Flappydoodle said:


> Does your DAW not let you do this? I've been doing this in Logic.
> 
> Since you can disable each section of the NDSP plugins separately, you could easily run the 33 from Nameless into the 5150 from Nolly into the Omega cab. As long as your computer is reasonably capable, it should be able to handle that chain - and a standalone "loader" plugin probably wouldn't be lighter anyway.



My DAW can, but it can be cpu/memory intensive on big projects and I’m pretty sure that a single instance of a VST centralizing everything would be less cpu/memory intensive than loading one instance per amp/cab/effect.

Also, doing it in the daw does not permit to use a general grid à la AxeEdit, e.g. for splitting/mixing signals between cab output, reverb and delay. At least not as easily, for me anyhow.

For me, it’s all about quality of life and cpu/memory optimization.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

It’s one of the top audience requests to get a Neural DSP hub where all their Plug-ins can be mixed and matched as well as the option to buy select pieces from each suite. I’m sure it’s coming with how big their lineup is now.


----------



## laxu

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> My DAW can, but it can be cpu/memory intensive on big projects and I’m pretty sure that a single instance of a VST centralizing everything would be less cpu/memory intensive than loading one instance per amp/cab/effect.
> 
> Also, doing it in the daw does not permit to use a general grid à la AxeEdit, e.g. for splitting/mixing signals between cab output, reverb and delay. At least not as easily, for me anyhow.
> 
> For me, it’s all about quality of life and cpu/memory optimization.



If you want that kind of workflow but don't mind not having recording capabilities, Cantabile 3 will do the job. The Lite version is free. It's mainly meant for live use but using it as a practice tool without recording capabilities works well for me.


----------



## Elric

Flappydoodle said:


> Does your DAW not let you do this? I've been doing this in Logic.
> 
> Since you can disable each section of the NDSP plugins separately, you could easily run the 33 from Nameless into the 5150 from Nolly into the Omega cab. As long as your computer is reasonably capable, it should be able to handle that chain - and a standalone "loader" plugin probably wouldn't be lighter anyway.


Sure it’s not a brain teaser to do that; but it is a royal pain in the a**, though. I hate instantiating a bunch of plugins to build a signal chain like that for a guitar tone. I like the virtual guitar signal chain, all the routing etc, to be in one place. Not popping four or five different GUIs at a time, setting up busses for parallel FX, etc. As someone else noted it is probably inefficient with regard to memory CPU, etc, too.


----------



## Emperoff

Elric said:


> Sure it’s not a brain teaser to do that; but it is a royal pain in the a**, though. I hate instantiating a bunch of plugins to build a signal chain like that for a guitar tone. I like the virtual guitar signal chain, all the routing etc, to be in one place. Not popping four or five different GUIs at a time, setting up busses for parallel FX, etc. As someone else noted it is probably inefficient with regard to memory CPU, etc, too.


This.


----------



## budda

Sounds like a job for an axe fx 3.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Sounds like a job for an axe fx 3.


----------



## budda

hey I try to keep it appropriate.

(  )


----------



## RevDrucifer

Emperoff said:


>



He’s not wrong, though!


----------



## RevDrucifer

I just read this thing got delayed again, is that true?

I got temp banned at TGP for “listing” my house for sale (it was clearly a joke, in a thread about ocean currents) so I can’t check the only place that has up-to-date info.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

RevDrucifer said:


> I just read this thing got delayed again, is that true?
> 
> I got temp banned at TGP for “listing” my house for sale (it was clearly a joke, in a thread about ocean currents) so I can’t check the only place that has up-to-date info.


Just checked and it's someone posting something from a Sweetwater rep saying they're expecting to be coming in late March.


----------



## laxu

RevDrucifer said:


> I just read this thing got delayed again, is that true?
> 
> I got temp banned at TGP for “listing” my house for sale (it was clearly a joke, in a thread about ocean currents) so I can’t check the only place that has up-to-date info.



Nothing official but my Thomann order changed from 2-3 weeks to 4-5 weeks again so it's possible.

EDIT: Last post on NDSP website on February 22nd:

"
Our expected schedule is unchanged from last week, and we still anticipate beginning taking payments for pre-orders in mid-March 2021 for shipment by the end of March 2021.

Standard testing, bug fixing, and optimizing continues. There are only a handful of issues left to resolve."


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

laxu said:


> Nothing official but my Thomann order changed from 2-3 weeks to 4-5 weeks again so it's possible.



By the sounds of things, it went from "They're going to be shipping out in late March" to "we won't be receiving them until late march".


----------



## Randy

NDSP blog says they will be taking final payment on tier 1 as early as this Monday and shipments coming in within 5 days.

https://neuraldsp.com/news/quad-cor...314001&utm_medium=social&utm_source=instagram


----------



## olejason

The American TGP users seem to be on the verge of complete panic and mutiny as the prospect of receiving their units days or weeks after Europeans starts to look more and more likely.


----------



## laxu

olejason said:


> The American TGP users seem to be on the verge of complete panic and mutiny as the prospect of receiving their units days or weeks after Europeans starts to look more and more likely.



For once! And the difference is like a few weeks compared to waiting for 6+ months for a new Fractal product to become available in Europe for example.

I'm still hoping I get mine at the start of April from Thomann.


----------



## Deadpool_25

I got an email saying units have begun shipping and “some customers have received them already.”

I’m guessing we may see some NGD threads popping up, as well as some unpaid review videos.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Oh actually a friend got his and posted a video.


----------



## Deadpool_25

And he’s live streaming with it now.


----------



## narad

Damn, your friend's awesome at that whole playing guitar thing


----------



## Deadpool_25

narad said:


> Damn, your friend's awesome at that whole playing guitar thing



Probably of less interest here because he almost exclusively plays single coils and doesn’t play heavy music often (although his EP _My Boy Jack _is heavier and is pretty awesome imo).


----------



## mikah912

Deadpool_25 said:


> Probably of less interest here because he almost exclusively plays single coils and doesn’t play heavy music often (although his EP _My Boy Jack _is heavier and is pretty awesome imo).



It wasn't the focus of the video, but when he went to the Mesa IIC+ rig and started riffing out on the higher gain Scenes, it sounded damn good. Very realistic to Mesa Mark character - chunky and tight.


----------



## SamSam

Fingers crossed I'll get my payment request later today.

Damn Brexit, being shifted to Tier 1 part 2 may be one of the most heinous parts of the separation yet!


----------



## Thrashman

I'll be looking forward to some honest reviews in about 2 months when everyone has stopped raving about it from pure consumer bias.. I have not been impressed yet and actually been rather dissapointed with the neural capture accuracy so far.. 

The only thing that appeals to me is being able to plug my entire band into one unit for fly-gigs, but I don't think the modelling is anything remarkable... YET. I'm hoping to be surprised.


----------



## budda

Curious to see what people say about the footswitches.


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Curious to see what people say about the footswitches.



They say they are wobbly.

Although apparently it is by design.


----------



## GunpointMetal

SamSam said:


> They say they are wobbly.
> 
> Although apparently it is by design.


 I would imagine there would need to be SOME play just because the intended function. But that seems like it would shorten their lifespan if someone is actually using it as a floor pedal. A wobbly switch suggests there is room for shit to get inside of there. I like the size. I'm gonna wait till all the software is on a second revision and we're a couple of firmware updates in before I seriously look at it. Hopefully by that time at least one retailer will have a bundle with an EXP pedal because IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO NOT INCLUDE ONE WITH A FUCKING FLOOR PEDAL.


----------



## budda

SamSam said:


> They say they are wobbly.
> 
> Although apparently it is by design.





GunpointMetal said:


> I would imagine there would need to be SOME play just because the intended function. But that seems like it would shorten their lifespan if someone is actually using it as a floor pedal. A wobbly switch suggests there is room for shit to get inside of there. I like the size. I'm gonna wait till all the software is on a second revision and we're a couple of firmware updates in before I seriously look at it. Hopefully by that time at least one retailer will have a bundle with an EXP pedal because IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO NOT INCLUDE ONE WITH A FUCKING FLOOR PEDAL.



I wasn't even thinking about how the buttons are also knobs (aren't they?), just the spacing.


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> I wasn't even thinking about how the buttons are also knobs (aren't they?), just the spacing.


 Yeah, they're rotary encoders and switches. Interesting idea, we'll see how it works on the floor. I imagine a good portion of the market for this is people who never take their gear out of the "studio" so who knows.


----------



## Thrashman

GunpointMetal said:


> Yeah, they're rotary encoders and switches. Interesting idea, we'll see how it works on the floor. I imagine a good portion of the market for this is people who never take their gear out of the "studio" so who knows.



If they've counted on a good portion of the market not using it for its intended purposes then the only way to look at this is a fucking disaster of a failure.

I'm also keeping my eyes on how the unit holds up during the next few months. Wobbly switches is a BAD sign as, mentioned above, that leaves room for dirt to enter.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Thrashman said:


> If they've counted on a good portion of the market not using it for its intended purposes then the only way to look at this is a fucking disaster of a failure.
> 
> I'm also keeping my eyes on how the unit holds up during the next few months. Wobbly switches is a BAD sign as, mentioned above, that leaves room for dirt to enter.


 I don’t know if they planned for it, there just isn’t going to be nearly as many people using it live right away, so the longevity of the switches may be a question for a while.


----------



## Randy

Kinda quiet, I expected a flurry of new QC owners in here


----------



## narad

Randy said:


> Kinda quiet, I expected a flurry of new QC owners in here



Oh jeez, now you've done it


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

@laxu are you going to do a review?



Deadpool_25 said:


> Oh actually a friend got his and posted a video.




You’re friends with Jonathan Cordy? That dude is a beast, love his playing. Yeah, I’m having a fanboy moment.


----------



## Deadpool_25

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> You’re friends with Jonathan Cordy? That dude is a beast, love his playing. Yeah, I’m having a fanboy moment.



John Nathan Cordy. Everyone sees it as Jonathan Cordy at first. I did too lol. Yeah man he’s a killer player.


----------



## Emperoff

Patiently waiting for laxu's review...


----------



## broangiel

I’ve seen a few complaints about the screen being a bit unresponsive, which is funny because every time that came up in a video, Doug assured everyone the screen was very responsive.


----------



## Thrashman

That's a big oof to me alongside the wobbly switches.

I'm pretty neutral to this all in all but it is quite interesting how quiet everyone is regarding the QC.. Almost like it was insanely overhyped and people have been grounded a bit when realising it ain't going to file your taxes and make your morning coffee..

I just want it to hold up so that they release a Mk2 with more space between the switches as I'd still have to buy an external midi controller to operate it live due to how cramped it is.


----------



## SamSam

Now owners are seeing that it won't drive them to work every morning things are calming down.

One piece of feedback I read was that the modelled amps are on about the same level as the helix. The captures still seem to be the strong point.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Any impressions on the FX? If I ever owned one, that would have been the major selling point for me, due to routing and shit. IIRC the early impressions by early reviewers were pretty bad.


----------



## laxu

Most of the stuff I've read has been things that are entirely fixable via firmware updates so that's promising. I'll report in depth when I get mine hopefully in about 2 weeks.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> Most of the stuff I've read has been things that are entirely fixable via firmware updates so that's promising. I'll report in depth when I get mine hopefully in about 2 weeks.



Hypothetically, any issue is fixable with a firmware update


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Hypothetically, any issue is fixable with a firmware update



Excluding hardware faults of course.


----------



## Deadpool_25

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Any impressions on the FX? If I ever owned one, that would have been the major selling point for me, due to routing and shit. IIRC the early impressions by early reviewers were pretty bad.



I thought the initial reviewers said the effects were good just not great? It’s a bit tough to tell from YouTube videos but what from I’ve heard, the effects sound quite good. I’m not surprised because the effects omw the plugins sound good too.


----------



## Randy

Deadpool_25 said:


> I thought the initial reviewers said the effects were good just not great? It’s a bit tough to tell from YouTube videos but what from I’ve heard, the effects sound quite good. I’m not surprised because the effects omw the plugins sound good too.



Most of the non-ball gargling reviews I saw said the effects were the weak spot, though I expect that is a super easy firmware upgrade. But no, I would not currently consider that a selling point.

So far all the "in the wild" demos I've seen have that same harsh treble response, including Choptones who are usually 10/10 demos. Only time I haven't heard it in was Rabea's which makes me very suspicious of whatever shenanigans were afoot. Even "every amp sounds the same" Ola had them in his.


----------



## Randy

Finally the guy I was waiting for


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Finally the guy I was waiting for




And the end result is pretty much what I expected, meaning it's in the same ballpark as the other top tier units.

As for the effects, I like the ones on NeuralDSP plugins so it would be weird to have worse ones on their flagship product.


----------



## Randy

laxu said:


> And the end result is pretty much what I expected, meaning it's in the same ballpark as the other top tier units.
> 
> As for the effects, I like the ones on NeuralDSP plugins so it would be weird to have worse ones on their flagship product.



Yeah my overall impression is that the NDSP plugins are 10/10 and it's just a matter of time to get the QC and plugins on the same page but it's inevitable.


----------



## maccayoung

I got one on Friday. 

Here are some quick thoughts as a former owner of helix/kemper/axe-fx 1;

- It sounds good. Not miles ahead of the other units I've owned, but it's much quicker for me to get sounds I like from it. 
Amp + cab sounds good right away. With the other units I'd have to do amp + cab, eq, high pass, low pass, try a bunch of IRs before I got something I liked. 
- The UI is awesome. It's like the helix but with a touch screen
- It does not have fizz that I always had to dial out of the helix
- Adjusting the cabs is really easy
- Wifi is really handy for getting presets; favourite presets on the app, and then download from the device. 
- There aren't any deep dive settings. Personally I like this. I got lost in the axe-fx options. I like that there are the settings that the amp would have and that's it.
- I haven't done any captures so I can't comment on that part.


----------



## makesexnotwar

As a Kemper owner I've been thinking to sell it when Quad Cortex is finally released. Since I bought Nolly's Archetype I rarely playing through Kemper. Neural plugins just feel more alive to me and stock IRs sound great without tweaking. Also it feels like Neural Capture is a big step over Kemper's commercial profiles market.
I wonder if any other Kemper owners thinking about same things?


----------



## Randy

makesexnotwar said:


> As a Kemper owner I've been thinking to sell it when Quad Cortex is finally released. Since I bought Nolly's Archetype I rarely playing through Kemper. Neural plugins just feel more alive to me and stock IRs sound great without tweaking. Also it feels like Neural Capture is a big step over Kemper's commercial profiles market.
> I wonder if any other Kemper owners thinking about same things?



My impression is that the users will decide whether or not they want to charge for their Neural captures, so there's still a high likelihood of a heavily commercial market no?


----------



## makesexnotwar

Of course users will decide. So probably same guys who are selling Kemper profiles will start selling captures for quad cortex at some point.


----------



## laxu

makesexnotwar said:


> Of course users will decide. So probably same guys who are selling Kemper profiles will start selling captures for quad cortex at some point.



They definitely will. Guys like M. Britt already have accounts on the NeuralDSP app.


----------



## SamSam

Moderators on the facebook page are turning off commenting on all posts...

Not very confidence inspiring.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> Moderators on the facebook page are turning off commenting on all posts...
> 
> Not very confidence inspiring.



I bet it was all raging about why folks haven't received theirs yet and why those who did don't instantly sound like the plug-ins.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Is it true that you can't separate the pre amp models to the power amp models? Im a fan of just running preamp models through the power amp of my 5150II using Fractal and Line6 products. Can I do the same thing with the QC?


----------



## laxu

MASS DEFECT said:


> Is it true that you can't separate the pre amp models to the power amp models? Im a fan of just running preamp models through the power amp of my 5150II using Fractal and Line6 products. Can I do the same thing with the QC?



Not at this time at least. There are some preamp only captures you can use though as well as poweramp only captures so you can build your dream rack if you want.

That said, running the full amp models from my Helix through a clean tube poweramp does works and sounds just fine vs using the preamps only.

It's worth reminding everyone that at this point the QC will be missing quite a bit of stuff:

No hybrid switch modes of stomp/preset, scenes/preset, scenes/stomp etc. This is coming probably pretty soon.

No separate preamp or poweramp models (excluding the afore-mentioned captures).
No desktop editor. That is coming but I expect in the fall at the earliest.
No looper. Also coming, but who knows when. They seem to have big plans for this so that's promising.
Number of amp models and fx is more limited than Helix or Axe-Fx.
No proper graphic EQ. It's just a knob UI. Doug Castro has said they will be implementing a nice one. Parametric EQ is the only one with a purpose built UI for EQs.
iPad editor. Seems very possible, Doug Castro seems to be on board with making one. But realistically we won't see this until next year at the earliest. Software development is time consuming.
No assigning multiple block on/off to a single switch. Obviously you can use scenes for this but it's a convenient "build your own stompbox from multiple fx blocks" feature. Don't know if Axe-Fx has this either but Helix does for sure.
Some UI quirks are to be expected. Low hanging fruit to fix so I would expect NDSP to implement convenience features and fixes fairly rapidly based on user feedback.
Mobile app is pretty barebones. Again easy to improve. Biggest complaint for me is the lack of curation features and requirements for captures as many don't have good descriptions to figure out what was captured.
If any of these feel like dealbreakers, wait until this time next year and you will get a more full featured product.


----------



## broangiel

It’s amazing to me how incomplete this product is. I’m seeing a lot of begging for features in the TGP thread. It’s awfully brave to buy a piece of gear like this on the premise of that it could be vs what it actually is. And that’s why I hopped off the train a couple months ago. Gotta see how this thing shakes out.


----------



## mikah912

broangiel said:


> It’s amazing to me how incomplete this product is. I’m seeing a lot of begging for features in the TGP thread. It’s awfully brave to buy a piece of gear like this on the premise of that it could be vs what it actually is. And that’s why I hopped off the train a couple months ago. Gotta see how this thing shakes out.



Nothing exceptional about it. Helix launched with a ton of stuff missing as well. The GT-1000 had a lot of missing features and no IR loading. FM3 was literally incomplete when launching (physically speaking, in terms of no headphone jacks).

These products very rarely launch fully baked, and *especially* if it's a brand new platform that can't leverage prior firmware/hardware like Kemper Stage or FM3.

I'll just have to see how much the stuff LaXu mentions bothers me when I get mine. I have a FM3 that I'm enjoying more and more every month I have it, so I'll have no problem sending QC back if it's too underbaked at this time.


----------



## budda

Missing a headphone jack is a big deal, no doubt. But it did everything else it was supposed to do


----------



## mikah912

budda said:


> Missing a headphone jack is a big deal, no doubt. But it did everything else it was supposed to do



No, it didn't. There were persistent USB interface/recording bugs for months, and they never did get Ultra-Res IRs working.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> It’s amazing to me how incomplete this product is. I’m seeing a lot of begging for features in the TGP thread. It’s awfully brave to buy a piece of gear like this on the premise of that it could be vs what it actually is. And that’s why I hopped off the train a couple months ago. Gotta see how this thing shakes out.



Pretty much every other top tier modeler has been on the market for anything from 5-10+ years when you include all the iterations of the same product line (e.g. Axe-Fx from Standard to III). FM3 was announced in 2019 but started shipping to US customers in Febuary 2020. So it's been on the market about a year at best but it's a derivative product from the Axe-Fx 3 lineup which is an improvement on the Axe-Fx 2 which is an improvement on the Axe-Fx Standard/Ultra. Same deal with Helix and all its smaller variants or Kemper toaster vs Stage.

People just forget that their feature list was not as extensive when they first launched. Editor software for all of them has launched after release, things like scenes were not a thing, loopers came later and so on.

Nobody should buy the QC (or any gear for that matter) based on what it could be but what it does today. It's just going to get better from there. I'm going to give it a try and if I feel it's too incomplete at this point, send it back and wait later into the year for BluGuitar Amp X and see how that turns out and where QC is at that point. Or I might like the QC and just use it and ride the firmware update excitement train again.


----------



## Deadpool_25

MASS DEFECT said:


> Is it true that you can't separate the pre amp models to the power amp models? Im a fan of just running preamp models through the power amp of my 5150II using Fractal and Line6 products. Can I do the same thing with the QC?



Man, I was trying to get that question answered and never got one. I’m still curious but everything I’ve seen makes me think you can NOT separate them.

With that said I actually like to run with the power amp on in my FM3 but usually set to the lowest setting (sag set to 0.01).


----------



## budda

mikah912 said:


> No, it didn't. There were persistent USB interface/recording bugs for months, and they never did get Ultra-Res IRs working.



So to recap, it had full functionality minus the headphone jack. Loaded IR's just not at highest capacity, and there were usb transmission issues. Those three things (again, valid complaints) versus the slew of stuff in laxu's list. To nitpick, my point still stands - it did what it said it did (with two issues within that). 

Hopefully those who ordered QC's are happy with their purchase. If not, the competition is there to fill the space.


----------



## mikah912

budda said:


> So to recap, it had full functionality minus the headphone jack. Loaded IR's just not at highest capacity, and there were usb transmission issues.
> 
> Those three things (again, valid complaints) versus the slew of stuff in laxu's list. To nitpick, my point still stands - it did what it said it did (with two issues within that).
> 
> Hopefully those who ordered QC's are happy with their purchase. If not, the competition is there to fill the space.



You're comparing something that's using the latest iteration of UI/firmware/hardware that's been on the market for *fifteen years* with a first-gen product. The FM3 gets no points for being feature complete upon launch, when all of said features were developed for other hardware years ago.

And no, I wouldn't call it "fully functional" if a primary use case (direct recording) was a dumpster fire for months on end. This stuff is all relative anyway. Fractal released the Standard in 2006, but didn't develop Scenes until 2012, I think? The QC is launching with them available on Day One. It took years to get block settings default in Fractal. QC has it on Day One. 

A lot of Laxu's list is stuff that doesn't even apply to competing products, so it can't be called lacking comparatively-speaking. Barebones mobile app? No doubt. Even Doug admits it's threadbare. Where's ANY officially-made mobile app for Fractal, Line 6 or Kemper? Same with "iPad Editor". "Hybrid switch mode" wasn't available on Helix or FM3 at launch either (in fact, I still don't think FM3 has it?).


----------



## laxu

mikah912 said:


> "Hybrid switch mode" wasn't available on Helix or FM3 at launch either (in fact, I still don't think FM3 has it?).



I think you can configure the switches to do that, e.g. one button is scene and other is a stompbox toggle? I think I remember seeing that in some Leon Todd video. The Axe-Fx 3 and FM3 foot controllers are quite configurable and they pretty much have to be when you have so few of them on the FC6 or the FM3.

NeuralDSP is basically standing on the shoulders of giants as most of their feature set they have been able to refer to what Line6, Kemper or Fractal have been doing with them and either implementing the same thing or looking beyond them on what works and what doesn't.

The QC is a first gen, barely released product yet still has like 70% of the feature set of the competition. That's not bad by any means.


----------



## Mr_Marty

Seeing lots of posts about people returning it but Neural is deleting the posts within minutes.


----------



## mikah912

Mr_Marty said:


> Seeing lots of posts about people returning it but Neural is deleting the posts within minutes.



Kinda odd given that there are several high-visibility places that Neural has no mod power over where they could express their displeasure, and yet they don't.


----------



## budda

@mikah912 im comparing the latest floor unit from 2 competitors.

Neural knew what they are up against


----------



## Emperoff

Mr_Marty said:


> Seeing lots of posts about people returning it but Neural is deleting the posts within minutes.



I can't imagine it being that bad. What you see is the effect of hype. Expectations are so unrealistically high that any flaw will cause a huge disappointment.

Neural censoring or deleting comments is standard practice for every manufacturer on social media. I remember Seymour Duncan deleting me a comment about the Duality pickups when it started rising in likes.


----------



## laxu

I think it would also be weird to have a device for what, a couple of days at best and already say "nope, this is going back". Especially on a device as complex as a modeler.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> I think it would also be weird to have a device for what, a couple of days at best and already say "nope, this is going back". Especially on a device as complex as a modeler.



I feel like people do this regularly .


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> I feel like people do this regularly .


I spent 1600€ and I still don't sound like Plini? This shit is going back!


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


> I spent 1600€ and I sound like Plini? This shit is going back!


FTFY


----------



## MetalDaze

Just got my Tier 1 US invoice. 

I’m throwing caution to the wind and getting it.


----------



## SamSam

MetalDaze said:


> Just got my Tier 1 US invoice.
> 
> I’m throwing caution to the wind and getting it.



Ditto, just paid. Sold a few bits recently and made a good profit on a watch sale so I've earned a treat (who am I kidding. )


----------



## c7spheres

- I'm not buying one of these but like to keep up on it as much as I can but, gee whiz, this thing sounds like a disaster. 
- I wonder if at this point they're just doing a money grab and will then shut it down. Hopefully not. 
- Everything about this unit since I first heard of it gives me the impression of a couple tech geeks in way over their heads and trying desperately to stay afloat. Shutting down people from posting, not responding to inquiries, not delivering on time or what was promised while still accepting money. This all points to disaster. I hope it's just a rough start, under staffing, manufacturer delays or something, being they haven't done hardware before, but dang. I've lost all confidence. Not that I was in the market anyways. If I got a modeller it'd be an AxeFX V mkii xl+. 
You people are very trusting to trust your money with them, imo. Best of luck to you all.


----------



## nickgray

c7spheres said:


> You people are very trusting to trust your money with them



It's the same story with video games - overpromise, sell tons of preorders, then underdeliver. Since high speed internet is common now, releasing supposedly finished games or software in a "beta" state (or even alpha in some cases) has become a normal thing too.

What's really funny though is that this is an expensive ass hardware unit with tons of sketchy marketing to back it up, and it's their first product of this kind. It seems that no sane person would preorder something like that, and yet here we are. I guess some people just have a lot of disposable income.


----------



## SamSam

The darkglass stuff is solidly built and sounds great.

The plugins are all good to excellent sounding. 

If I really dont like it I'll just sell it


----------



## jco5055

laxu said:


> Pretty much every other top tier modeler has been on the market for anything from 5-10+ years when you include all the iterations of the same product line (e.g. Axe-Fx from Standard to III). FM3 was announced in 2019 but started shipping to US customers in Febuary 2020. So it's been on the market about a year at best but it's a derivative product from the Axe-Fx 3 lineup which is an improvement on the Axe-Fx 2 which is an improvement on the Axe-Fx Standard/Ultra. Same deal with Helix and all its smaller variants or Kemper toaster vs Stage.
> 
> People just forget that their feature list was not as extensive when they first launched. Editor software for all of them has launched after release, things like scenes were not a thing, loopers came later and so on.
> 
> Nobody should buy the QC (or any gear for that matter) based on what it could be but what it does today. It's just going to get better from there. I'm going to give it a try and if I feel it's too incomplete at this point, send it back and wait later into the year for BluGuitar Amp X and see how that turns out and where QC is at that point. Or I might like the QC and just use it and ride the firmware update excitement train again.



Is there a release date yet for the Amp X? Or just 2021? Seeing as so far the QC looks like it won't be an AxeFX killer I want either the Amp X or AxFx but I'll wait to see who imo is the "winner" before buying.


----------



## laxu

jco5055 said:


> Is there a release date yet for the Amp X? Or just 2021? Seeing as so far the QC looks like it won't be an AxeFX killer I want either the Amp X or AxFx but I'll wait to see who imo is the "winner" before buying.



Amp X might be coming out later this year is the latest I know, but I would not count on it.

None of these will be an "Axe-Fx killer" depending on what your metrics for "killer" are. They will all sound in the same ballpark and have their own pros and cons. I think there's already several units on the market that beat Axe-Fx in things like UI and overall usability.


----------



## laxu

c7spheres said:


> - I wonder if at this point they're just doing a money grab and will then shut it down. Hopefully not.
> - Everything about this unit since I first heard of it gives me the impression of a couple tech geeks in way over their heads and trying desperately to stay afloat. Shutting down people from posting, not responding to inquiries, not delivering on time or what was promised while still accepting money. This all points to disaster. I hope it's just a rough start, under staffing, manufacturer delays or something, being they haven't done hardware before, but dang. I've lost all confidence. Not that I was in the market anyways. If I got a modeller it'd be an AxeFX V mkii xl+.
> You people are very trusting to trust your money with them, imo. Best of luck to you all.



Do you really think these guys would spend several years developing a product and paying high wages for software devs in Finland just to "do a money grab and shut it down"? Come on.

NeuralDSP folks have years of experience for software development from their plugins as well as hardware on the Darkglass side. The only thing new is the scope and ambition of this project. They are not some newbies tinkering on something.

I think they have also been pretty clear about what will and what won't be in the unit. They've released full lists of available models, captures etc. The only thing that has taken me by surprise has been that the graphic EQ does not have an actual graphic EQ UI at this point.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> FTFY



Sounds like you forgot their target audience


----------



## GunpointMetal

laxu said:


> I think it would also be weird to have a device for what, a couple of days at best and already say "nope, this is going back". Especially on a device as complex as a modeler.


Meh, I think people who are used to these types of devices and know they have options aren't going to need two weeks to decide if they like the UI and the available features. I know I could make that call in a matter of hours with a new device, especially with one that has an easy of a UI as this one.


----------



## budda

tidbit o' info:

"...They time all the positive news very carefully to coincide with the annual shareholders meeting for the firm that bailed them out back in august so they could actually make the units. But the majority of the fans apparently don't know that, they don't even know how to use google to figure out that Neural isn't actually registered under an SIC/NAICS/European equivalent code for an equipment manufacturer. They are registered under the code for a branding/marketing/consulting business.




"


----------



## laxu

GunpointMetal said:


> Meh, I think people who are used to these types of devices and know they have options aren't going to need two weeks to decide if they like the UI and the available features. I know I could make that call in a matter of hours with a new device, especially with one that has an easy of a UI as this one.



I think that would be a very premature evaluation then. I have found myself testing even some plugins for days until I figured out setups that I really loved. In a few days time on the NeuralDSP SLO plugin I went from "meh" to "yeah...that's really good" and that's mostly just messing with the various cab settings and fx.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> tidbit o' info:
> 
> "...They time all the positive news very carefully to coincide with the annual shareholders meeting for the firm that bailed them out back in august so they could actually make the units. But the majority of the fans apparently don't know that, they don't even know how to use google to figure out that Neural isn't actually registered under an SIC/NAICS/European equivalent code for an equipment manufacturer. They are registered under the code for a branding/marketing/consulting business.
> 
> 
> 
> "



At least in Finland NeuralDSP is registered like this, translated from Finnish:

Business area: IT-consulting, IT-services.
Business area classification (TOL2008): 62010 Software development and manufacturing.

Why they are not registered under "Musical instrument equipment manufacturing" or something like that I do not know. That classification does exist. Maybe that one matched their original plugin business best. I can't get more info about them without paying which I am not interested enough to do.

Without more info I am not going to say they were "bailed" but seem to have taken a loan or sold part of the business to fund the manufacturing of the QC. That seems like pretty normal business to me. They aren't exactly going to fund development and manufacturing with the 200 euro preorders deposits.


----------



## StevenC

budda said:


> tidbit o' info:
> 
> "...They time all the positive news very carefully to coincide with the annual shareholders meeting for the firm that bailed them out back in august so they could actually make the units. But the majority of the fans apparently don't know that, they don't even know how to use google to figure out that Neural isn't actually registered under an SIC/NAICS/European equivalent code for an equipment manufacturer. They are registered under the code for a branding/marketing/consulting business.
> 
> 
> 
> "


As far as I can find NDSP are registered as being predominantly involved in "computer programming activities" at least on the Finnish register, with the 62010 code. Which is the correct NACE code for that.


----------



## c7spheres

laxu said:


> Do you really think these guys would spend several years developing a product and paying high wages for software devs in Finland just to "do a money grab and shut it down"? Come on.
> 
> NeuralDSP folks have years of experience for software development from their plugins as well as hardware on the Darkglass side. The only thing new is the scope and ambition of this project. They are not some newbies tinkering on something.
> 
> I think they have also been pretty clear about what will and what won't be in the unit. They've released full lists of available models, captures etc. The only thing that has taken me by surprise has been that the graphic EQ does not have an actual graphic EQ UI at this point.


 I'm not trying to shine bad light on them or anything, but I don't put it past any company that may potentially be in trouble to maximize what it can get before bailing on people or a project. Not that they are in trouble far as I know. I should probably educate myself more about them. There's just something that feels bad about it since I heard of it. Maybe it's just those encoder buttons making biased.


----------



## Deadpool_25

My guess:

By the end of 2022 the kinks will have been worked out, the features will have been filled in, and it’ll be cemented as a top shelf modeler along with Fractal, Helix, and Kemper (which IS still highly regarded as far as I can tell).

Go ahead and set a reminder to come back to this post on Jan 1 2023.


----------



## Emperoff

- Company releases a multiFX unit.
- ss.org starts digging into trademark and company information.

You guys really need to play the guitar more


----------



## SamSam

Emperoff said:


> - Company releases a multiFX unit.
> - ss.org starts digging into trademark and company information.
> 
> You guys really need to play the guitar more



People here play guitar?

I thought we just buy and sell shit???


----------



## KnightBrolaire

SamSam said:


> People here play guitar?
> 
> I thought we just buy and sell shit???


wait, we're supposed to sell stuff?
I thought we were just supposed to hoard.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> - Company releases a multiFX unit.
> - ss.org starts digging into trademark and company information.
> 
> You guys really need to play the guitar more



What if I told you that was copied and pasted?

I play guitar an hr a week - a half hour lesson and a half hour of noodling.

But I dont have to wonder about my modelling unit


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> But I dont have to wonder about my modelling unit



Are you sure?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Emperoff said:


> Are you sure?



I think Budda is probably the second most locked in person on this forum in terms of gear. 



Second to me. 





Obviously.


----------



## AboutBlank

budda said:


> tidbit o' info:
> 
> "...They time all the positive news very carefully to coincide with the annual shareholders meeting for the firm that bailed them out back in august so they could actually make the units. But the majority of the fans apparently don't know that, they don't even know how to use google to figure out that Neural isn't actually registered under an SIC/NAICS/European equivalent code for an equipment manufacturer. They are registered under the code for a branding/marketing/consulting business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "



This is not directed at you of course, but the person quoted somehow implies that it is unusual or strange that a company like Neural has (or could have) shareholders.

The romantic view that many people have of the instrument business is probably quite clouded in some cases.
Building up a manufacturing company with everything that goes with it (R&D, tools, employees, materials, etc.) is not exactly cheap.
Nor is the powerful marketing that runs parallel to this free of charge (cough, Blackstar, cough).

Furthermore, I do not want to know what additional influence the AKM fire had or still has on the development and production.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> My guess:
> 
> By the end of 2022 the kinks will have been worked out, the features will have been filled in, and it’ll be cemented as a top shelf modeler along with Fractal, Helix, and Kemper (which IS still highly regarded as far as I can tell).
> 
> Go ahead and set a reminder to come back to this post on Jan 1 2023.



Very reasonable expectation. I'd expect by the end of 2021 they would have at least the desktop editor out and most of the feature gaps plugged and usability quirks ironed out. We will see if that is too optimistic.


----------



## SamSam

KnightBrolaire said:


> wait, we're supposed to sell stuff?
> I thought we were just supposed to hoard.



I was a hoarder. But then I realized I was running out of space and stuffing hardcases behind my desk. Once I move into my next home (looking like Q1 2023) I will have more space to resume the hoarding process


----------



## budda

AboutBlank said:


> This is not directed at you of course, but the person quoted somehow implies that it is unusual or strange that a company like Neural has (or could have) shareholders.
> 
> The romantic view that many people have of the instrument business is probably quite clouded in some cases.
> Building up a manufacturing company with everything that goes with it (R&D, tools, employees, materials, etc.) is not exactly cheap.
> Nor is the powerful marketing that runs parallel to this free of charge (cough, Blackstar, cough).
> 
> Furthermore, I do not want to know what additional influence the AKM fire had or still has on the development and production.



I wonder if a lot of gear companies time their announcements with shareholder meetings though (legitimately).


----------



## narad

budda said:


> I wonder if a lot of gear companies time their announcements with shareholder meetings though (legitimately).



At least for the limited releases, I think Boss times their product announcements around when I'm asleep.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> I wonder if a lot of gear companies time their announcements with shareholder meetings though (legitimately).



Pretty much all companies time them so that the results can be shown off in fiscal quarter meetings etc. They either show profit or growth to investors. E.g. guitar company A shows off their new product at NAMM, various stores order new product and then in a shareholder meeting they show "we have this many orders for this amount of profit rolling in during Q2".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Wait, you mean NDSP isn't just Doug in his parents' basement hewning QCs out of raw materials? 

They're like a company? With financers and structure and accountability and shit? Well, that's not metal.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> Wait, you mean NDSP isn't just Doug in his parents' basement hewning QCs out of raw materials?
> 
> They're like a company? With financers and structure and accountability and shit? Well, that's not metal.



It's the $ injection to actually deliver the product they already took money for, but yeah


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> It's the $ injection to actually deliver the product they already took money for, but yeah



Who wouldn't want more money?

Nothing about the article you posted screen shots of, but not the actual article for some reason, implied that they needed investment in order to deliver vs. not. 

https://www.capman.com/2020/08/capman-growth-new-fund-neural-dsp/


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> It's the $ injection to actually deliver the product they already took money for, but yeah



You mean they took what, 200 euros from users as preorder deposit? Like I said earlier, that's not going to cover the manufacturing of these things. It might buy you the case and switches. They will need investment money or loans to pay their vendors and then recoup that when they bill the remainder from preorder buyers.

As I suspected the "bailed" thing was just bullshit and it was really just a regular investment round.


----------



## broangiel

AboutBlank said:


> Furthermore, I do not want to know what additional influence the AKM fire had or still has on the development and production.


A lot of the big boys in this space use better converters than AKM. The fire probably impacted the more consumer oriented stuff, more so than the pro or prosumer stuff.


----------



## budda

For the record, I didnt do any of the digging


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


> - Company releases a multiFX unit.
> - ss.org starts digging into trademark and company information.
> 
> You guys really need to play the guitar more


Uhh, it was 10pm and all my 14 day free trials had run out.


----------



## GunpointMetal

laxu said:


> I think that would be a very premature evaluation then. I have found myself testing even some plugins for days until I figured out setups that I really loved. In a few days time on the NeuralDSP SLO plugin I went from "meh" to "yeah...that's really good" and that's mostly just messing with the various cab settings and fx.


 I have no doubt in my mind that just about ANY modeling unit out in the last decade or so is capable of great direct tones, so I don’t need to find “my sound” to decide if I want to use something. I’m more interested in how it interfaces, how quickly I can navigate it to make it do what I want, and how well it integrates into my live setups. Tone-hunting is an excellent endless quest, so it’s not what I’ll make a decision on. The Kemper sounds amazing, but I hate everything else about it pretty much and it took me 15 minutes to figure that out, lol.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> Uhh, it was 10pm and all my 14 day free trials had run out.



So you will have to wait until they release the next "suite" to play guitar again, then.

(Just a couple of weeks, probably )


----------



## Flappydoodle

GunpointMetal said:


> I have no doubt in my mind that just about ANY modeling unit out in the last decade or so is capable of great direct tones, so I don’t need to find “my sound” to decide if I want to use something. I’m more interested in how it interfaces, how quickly I can navigate it to make it do what I want, and how well it integrates into my live setups. Tone-hunting is an excellent endless quest, so it’s not what I’ll make a decision on. The Kemper sounds amazing, but I hate everything else about it pretty much and it took me 15 minutes to figure that out, lol.



Totally agree. And I assume there is a reasonably sized demographic of people like me. Guitar is a hobby and I like playing with toys related to my hobby. If the QC is fun to use, and you can make different sounds without it being a frustrating experience, then that’s a good enough reason to buy one. Realistically I don’t *need* any more sounds than I can already get with plugins. But the experience is part of it too.


----------



## SamSam

Batch 2 shipping notices are being sent out now. Est arrival on 29/03 for mine (Fingers crossed).


----------



## laxu

Flappydoodle said:


> Totally agree. And I assume there is a reasonably sized demographic of people like me. Guitar is a hobby and I like playing with toys related to my hobby. If the QC is fun to use, and you can make different sounds without it being a frustrating experience, then that’s a good enough reason to buy one. Realistically I don’t *need* any more sounds than I can already get with plugins. But the experience is part of it too.



This is how I see it as well. I already have good plugins to play with as well as a Helix Floor but that is mostly an fx box for my amps. I'd like a "desktop" unit so I am not on the computer as much as I am already but putting my Helix on the desk means ripping out a lot of cables and taking the whole damn desk. So QC fits the bill as a compact unit.

I've been using the BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition as my desktop unit but it still needs to be hooked up to a computer for cab sims and fx.


----------



## MetalDaze

Got my tracking number. ETA Friday.


----------



## MetalDaze

MetalDaze said:


> Got my tracking number. ETA Friday.



cleared customs!


----------



## Thrashman

Still waiting for some decent reviews from users... But it's pretty quiet aside from the usual "touchscreen good FM3 bad no switches"

Also kind of pathetic that I got blocked from two NDSP groups on Facebook for saying that reports of the footswitches being wobbly is a bit worrying due to the possibility of dirt getting in there


----------



## technomancer

Thrashman said:


> Still waiting for some decent reviews from users... But it's pretty quiet aside from the usual "touchscreen good FM3 bad no switches"
> 
> Also kind of pathetic that I got blocked from two NDSP groups on Facebook for saying that reports of the footswitches being wobbly is a bit worrying due to the possibility of dirt getting in there



I have literally seen nothing that makes me regret grabbing an FM3 instead of waiting for this...


----------



## Deadpool_25

Thrashman said:


> Still waiting for some decent reviews from users... But it's pretty quiet aside from the usual "touchscreen good FM3 bad no switches"
> 
> Also kind of pathetic that I got blocked from two NDSP groups on Facebook for saying that reports of the footswitches being wobbly is a bit worrying due to the possibility of dirt getting in there



Oh that IS pathetic.


----------



## profwoot

Thrashman said:


> Still waiting for some decent reviews from users... But it's pretty quiet aside from the usual "touchscreen good FM3 bad no switches"
> 
> Also kind of pathetic that I got blocked from two NDSP groups on Facebook for saying that reports of the footswitches being wobbly is a bit worrying due to the possibility of dirt getting in there



I get it, but if I were them and folk were coming into my digital space spreading FUD about the possibility of my huge-stakes product having a design that could, in some circumstances, lead to it becoming defective to some degree someday, maybe, given certain assumptions? I'd at least think about blocking them.

but maybe there are actual irl reports of such a defect?


----------



## lurè

Gotta love those "only positive reviews/ only good vibes" official fb groups for a product.


----------



## budda

Cue Laxu saying everyone does that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> Cue Laxu saying everyone does that.



I mean, that is pretty prevalent these days.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, that is pretty prevalent these days.



I don't doubt it (I'm not actively checking product fb groups anymore). He's just always first in to say it


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Cue Laxu saying everyone does that.



They can easily rebuke statements like this with "we tested the switches by dumping a bucket of dirt on them and they were fine". Just deleting the posts is the same stuff like Carvin/Kiesel forums had where negative reviews were removed, it gives the wrong impression to potential buyers and also makes the company look bad. Now granted, the TGP thread was already full of some pretty bullshit allegations and I would not be surprised if FB groups are even worse. So I kinda understand that for mods it's easier to remove the posts but I still don't like it.

I'm more concerned about how that wobble will affect the feel of the knobs. I tried how my Helix Floor switches feel and they have a bit of wobble too but it's never an issue as you either just touch them to switch the selected block or stomp on them with a foot.


----------



## profwoot

laxu said:


> They can easily rebuke statements like this with "we tested the switches by dumping a bucket of dirt on them and they were fine".



As if the average internet wastrel would be convinced by this? Having just seen the formation of a new American religion based on nothing but internet rumors and fact avoidance, I wouldn't give any of the rumor-mongering shitbirds the time of day. 

I have no interest in the QC; I'm just done with the only alternative to having one's digital space overrun by whichever random internet mob is after you for probably no reason being seen as fascist or something. As you alluded to, it's understandable that companies try to keep the bullshit out of their own living room. If there are valid concerns about the QC they'll be all over the internet in no time anyway.


----------



## ATRguitar91

profwoot said:


> wastrel.


No dog in this fight, I'm too cheap for any of the higher end modellers.

But thanks for teaching me a new word! Wastrel is awesome, I love a good word.


----------



## Thrashman

profwoot said:


> I get it, but if I were them and folk were coming into my digital space spreading FUD about the possibility of my huge-stakes product having a design that could, in some circumstances, lead to it becoming defective to some degree someday, maybe, given certain assumptions? I'd at least think about blocking them.
> 
> but maybe there are actual irl reports of such a defect?


Yeah, there is/was video of how wobbly the switches are (they do wiggle) indicating they leave enough space for dust/dirt/grime to enter. That’s all I commented on as well


----------



## Thrashman

technomancer said:


> I have literally seen nothing that makes me regret grabbing an FM3 instead of waiting for this...



same. Even though I’m a ”dont fix what isn’t broken” type of guy, I also haven’t come across anything more convincing than my FM3 so I’ll stick with that until the day comes.


----------



## technomancer

Thrashman said:


> same. Even though I’m a ”dont fix what isn’t broken” type of guy, I also haven’t come across anything more convincing than my FM3 so I’ll stick with that until the day comes.



I bought my FM3 a little over a month ago so I debated both units, and for what I'm doing (living room rig with small FRFR / effects unit for use with my tube amps) I am very happy with my decision at this point.


----------



## Randy

Is it true all the QCs are spoken for and next batch won't be until fall?


----------



## MetalDaze

Got mine today. Bigger update tomorrow.

The quick is that I built a preset in 2 mins and spent the next hour or so having fun with it.

No regrets so far.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> Is it true all the QCs are spoken for and next batch won't be until fall?



I think it's just that dealers have ordered all they can make until fall. They probably haven't been sold though.

I just got a message from Thomann that mine is estimated to ship on the 6th instead of the 2nd. Which is fine for me as it means a replacement G&L bridge I ordered through them will make it into that same order.


----------



## MetalDaze

I'm back with some initial thoughts.

First off, I love modern electronics packaging. Just like any high end product, the attention to detail is there. While it doesn't have any real bearing on the product itself, I think it is a good customer experience.

I've seen some people complain about wobbly switches. Yes, there is some lateral movement, but it didn't raise any red flags for me. Those worried about dirt getting in there should be more concerned about the heat dispersal vent underneath the unit. That is where something significant could get in. 

On the plus side, I think the idea of using those switches as knobs is brilliant. The combination of touchscreen to build a signal chain and then using the knobs to adjust parameters has a very natural feel to it. Much better than editors that require you to use arrow keys or a mouse.

I saw someone complain about the Wi-Fi. When I first fired it up, it didn't see my network. While my studio is on the other end of the house than the router, that hasn't been a problem with other devices. However, I tried it again about 30 mins later and it found my network and connected without issue. No idea why it didn't work the first time, but who cares at this point.

Now to some actual playing. I should note that I am primarily a tube amp guy. I have not owned any Axe-Fx, Kemper, or Line6. I do have a GSP1101 that I use for effects only. I never felt any of the amp models in there sounded as good as a real amp.

So, I went guitar -> QC -> Fryette Classic XXX -> two 4x12 cabinets. Like many, I was concerned that you can't turn off the power amp portion of the models in the QC. However, the Fryette can be set fairly transparent.

My first patch was simple: noise gate, graphic EQ, 5150 Red. Then, I added in some chorus and delay. At that point, I lost about an hour because it sounded good to my ears and I just wanted to noodle around. I had planned on another tube amp purchase, but now I'm putting that on hold. I think there's a lot of potential here.

Somewhere I saw Doug say that v1 of the software is a MVP. Since I have worked in product management in the past, that stands for minimum viable product and seems appropriate here. You can tell in places that it is not a mature product, but there is a lot there. Enough that it is usable out of the box and provides enough value to justify the cost. To be honest, I've seen MVP software offerings with a lot less features than this so I'm satisfied for now and optimistic that it will get better over time.

That's it for now.


----------



## JoeGuitar717

technomancer said:


> I bought my FM3 a little over a month ago so I debated both units, and for what I'm doing (living room rig with small FRFR / effects unit for use with my tube amps) I am very happy with my decision at this point.



I also grabbed an FM3 recently, while waiting for the QC. I didn't cancel my QC pre-order though, as I'd like to compare both of them before deciding what to do next. The capture function is most alluring to me, since I have a bunch of tube amps. From the videos it _seems_ like the capture function is accurate, but we shall see. The FM3 is killer though.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

MetalDaze said:


> On the plus side, I think the idea of using those switches as knobs is brilliant. The combination of touchscreen to build a signal chain and then using the knobs to adjust parameters has a very natural feel to it. Much better than editors that require you to use arrow keys or a mouse.



I could just imagine gigging with this in a hole in the wall bar. You walk on a sticky beer drenched floor to pee in the dirtiest restroom in the midwest before your set. 

Now, you are playing. You bend down to adjust the gain with the stomp knobs. 

Then you scratch your eyes. lol


----------



## laxu

MASS DEFECT said:


> I could just imagine gigging with this in a hole in the wall bar. You walk on a sticky beer drenched floor to pee in the dirtiest restroom in the midwest before your set.
> 
> Now, you are playing. You bend down to adjust the gain with the stomp knobs.
> 
> Then you scratch your eyes. lol


Yet people are not concerned about that with pedals where the switch and knobs are close enough that crap from the bottom of your shoes might fall on them as you stomp around.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> Yet people are not concerned about that with pedals where the switch and knobs are close enough that crap from the bottom of your shoes might fall on them as you stomp around.



Now that's what I call a stretch


----------



## jephjacques

Just paid the rest of the deposit on mine, looking forward to A/Bing it with my Axefx III when it shows up. Will post thoughts here!


----------



## budda

Can we just get some ngd threads?


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Can we just get some ngd threads?



Nope. Some crap felt into the controls when unpacking and then scratched their eyes. They all went blind.


----------



## swollseyba

Got mine on Friday. It's cool. The packaging was exceptional. I need to mess around with it a lot more before I can say how really feel about but...

First impressions are that it looks and feels great. Some of the functionality with the menus and the app are a bit clunky, but that might be more of a me problem than a QC problem. Certain aspects of the UI feel amazing, and others feel a bit rushed. 

It sounds good. I found it very easy to dial in tones with my 6 string guitar. My 7 strings are a little trickier to get the sound I am looking for. Again, this is most likely a me problem. 

I have not yet delved into captures, but I plan to do that pretty soon. 
I also could not figure out how to load 3rd party IR's into it, but I only kinda half ass-ed-ly tried. The menu to access that function was not where it was supposed to be though.


----------



## c7spheres

MASS DEFECT said:


> I could just imagine gigging with this in a hole in the wall bar. You walk on a sticky beer drenched floor to pee in the dirtiest restroom in the midwest before your set.
> 
> Now, you are playing. You bend down to adjust the gain with the stomp knobs.
> 
> Then you scratch your eyes. lol



Anyone who has one of these should probably elevate or protect the bottom somehow to prevent stuff getting in the air vent on the bottom someone mentioned earlier. Though it looks well built this isn't a Boss or MXR stompbox or something more sealed like that. 
- Everyone should just keep their air vent clean. 
- Mind your holes people! On both your body and your Quad Cortex.


----------



## SamSam

Mine should (Fingers crossed) arrive tomorrow. It's been delayed a day for some reason. It was supposed to arrive today!


----------



## laxu

swollseyba said:


> I also could not figure out how to load 3rd party IR's into it, but I only kinda half ass-ed-ly tried. The menu to access that function was not where it was supposed to be though.



Seems the process is something like this:

1. Register your Quad Cortex to your NeuralDSP account.
2. Go to the NeuralDSP account on your web browser and you can upload IRs through there.
3. Download IRs from the cloud to your QC.
4. Load IR option in the cab block.

A bit of a clunky process that hopefully gets more straightforward with the desktop editor.

Personally I would not even bother with 3rd party IRs unless there is some cab that is missing from the stock cab sims. The movable mics on the stock cab sims are a huge benefit for dialing in the exact tone you want. While the list of cabs has way too many 4x12s with V30s and more limited set of 1x12, 2x12 and 10" speaker options, they should cover the tones most people use.


----------



## sleewell

Yeah hopefully helix adds something like that moveable mic in the cab sim. That's a really good idea.


----------



## laxu

sleewell said:


> Yeah hopefully helix adds something like that moveable mic in the cab sim. That's a really good idea.



I hope for that too. The cab block on the Helix is easily the worst part of it and overhauling it would be a big improvement. I use 3rd party IRs with my Helix Floor or just hook up Helix Native to ML Sound Lab MIKKO.

As a user experience being able to move the mic around and immediately hear what it does makes it so much better than the file browser based IR setups found in most things. In the background these things are just blending multiple IRs together but it works incredibly well.


----------



## AwakenTheSkies

laxu said:


> I hope for that too. The cab block on the Helix is easily the worst part of it and overhauling it would be a big improvement.



I too use IRs like you say, but I think there might be some hidden potential in the Helix Cabs, with the mics, early reflections and all. With my hardware Helix LT I have always recorded/reamped with IRs because they are a safer bet, but just the other day I bought Helix Native and I don't have to reamp my tracks every time I want to try something new anymore, and I'm definetly looking forward to messing with the Helix cabs. In a weird way, I find that they have qualities in the mid-range that the top IRs don't have (Like ML Sound Lab and Ownhammer).


----------



## GunpointMetal

I'm kinda curious to see if they have to seriously truncate the IRs and make up for some of it with modeling between the mic position IRs. Loading an IR isn't usually the least DSP-intensive and being able to mix a bunch of them of the same cab in real-time, I'd think, would require dozens of IR's being loaded simultaneously. I suppose the software could be smart enough to only load the ones needed to make the mix to match the mic placement.


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> I suppose the software could be smart enough to only load the ones needed to make the mix to match the mic placement.


This is exactly how it works. Dynamic convolution is not currently supported by any modeller despite their efforts at fooling people with "dynamic IR modes", "DynIR", or whatever.

Only Acustica Audio Nebula does that, and it would crush any current modeller CPU. Ownhammer released a few cabs back in the day but they stopped doing it since it's not profitable for them. DibiQuadro has some as well, but they're pretty limited and I didn't like them that much TBH.


----------



## laxu

GunpointMetal said:


> I'm kinda curious to see if they have to seriously truncate the IRs and make up for some of it with modeling between the mic position IRs. Loading an IR isn't usually the least DSP-intensive and being able to mix a bunch of them of the same cab in real-time, I'd think, would require dozens of IR's being loaded simultaneously. I suppose the software could be smart enough to only load the ones needed to make the mix to match the mic placement.



Maybe some of it can be precomputed too, like the system knows what is needed for each position you can set in the UI and selects the IRs based on the parameters sent from the UI.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

interesting...


----------



## Emperoff

KnightBrolaire said:


> interesting...




lmao, none of them sounded even close to the amp


----------



## Masoo2

KnightBrolaire said:


> interesting...



For my ears, the QC sounded closest to the amp but in a fairly unconvincing/artificial/EQ matchy way, where as the Kemper didn't match the exact EQ curve but actually sounded 10x better than real or QC to my ears, definitely more mix-ready and less digital compared to the QC

Kemper tone was _noice_


----------



## DudeManBrother

I’d pick the amp by far in solo, Kemper sounded decent in the mix, and QC had that nasty fizzy top end that that just gets grating. Both Kemper and QC seemed to build up in the low mids, kind of like aliasing that occurs with distortion plugins that don’t allow oversampling. Kemper seems more scooped but the top end isn’t as bad. I’d personally trash both those captures and try again.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The Kemper wasn't as accurate but oddly sounded better.  It honestly sounded better than the QC or the real thing. I usually dig the guy's tones (besides the fact he overloads the distortion) but here it wasn't too hot.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Kemper wasn’t even close. Didn’t sound like the same amp, cab or anything. 

Yet we know the Kemper is capable of making profiles which indistinguishable from the real thing. So again this just shows that there’s some amount of skill or tricks/techniques needed in making accurate profiles. 

QC sounded much closer. But I don’t know how much of the brightness was from him adding an additional boost pedal after making the capture. Still, I vastly preferred that sound to the Kemper version.


----------



## lurè

None of them sounded like the real amp.

In the mix the Kemper sounded more balanced overall.


----------



## FearComplex

Apparently he didn't refine with the Kemper so a worthless comparison.


----------



## narad

FearComplex said:


> Apparently he didn't refine with the Kemper so a worthless comparison.



He also didn't recite the lyrics to Ozymandias while holding the QC aloft, so also a worthless comparison from that end.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> He also didn't recite the lyrics to Ozymandias while holding the QC aloft, so also a worthless comparison from that end.



Not really a fair smartass comment as refining is an actual part of the profile process to make it match the amp better


----------



## narad

technomancer said:


> Not really a fair smartass comment as refining is an actual part of the profile process to make it match the amp better



Hey I mean, I think it's fair to assume that reciting Ozymandias plays some important role with using that device or why would it be etched into it? Or did that not make it out of the teaser trailer and into the production units?

Either way I'm surprised both in this vid and in Rabeas original vid that they didn't do the refining. It's like... they didn't just buy the Kemper the week of the video, right?


----------



## Deadpool_25

@technomancer Here we are again at A/B comparisons, right?


----------



## technomancer

Deadpool_25 said:


> @technomancer Here we are again at A/B comparisons, right?



Eh I can see seeing which you like better for the purpose of buying one or the other. It's the "does this sound exactly like this other thing over here?" that I find completely pointless. It's a rabbit hole that serves no purpose


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> Hey I mean, I think it's fair to assume that reciting Ozymandias plays some important role with using that device or why would it be etched into it? Or did that not make it out of the teaser trailer and into the production units?
> 
> Either way I'm surprised both in this vid and in Rabeas original vid that they didn't do the refining. It's like... they didn't just buy the Kemper the week of the video, right?



Clearly it is an incantation that impacts the biomimetic balance of the unit when chanted at the right cadence... downside is if you get it wrong it turns into a shoggoth and eats everything in the room


----------



## FearComplex

narad said:


> Either way I'm surprised both in this vid and in Rabeas original vid that they didn't do the refining. It's like... they didn't just buy the Kemper the week of the video, right?



It's strange to say the least. That's now 2 widely shared videos from users who, for some reason or another, neglected to perform the most critical step in creating an accurate profile.


----------



## USMarine75

Tonejunkie is now getting into the QC capture market. 

Thought the captures sounded terrible, but they were also drenched in FX. FWIW I have their Kemper profiles of those amps and they didnt sound like that... then again I'm in the room and not subject to YT audio encoding.


----------



## narad

technomancer said:


> Clearly it is an incantation that impacts the biomimetic balance of the unit when chanted at the right cadence... downside is if you get it wrong it turns into a shoggoth and eats everything in the room



Man and they said _profiling_ was finicky...


----------



## Emperoff

FearComplex said:


> It's strange to say the least. That's now 2 widely shared videos from users who, for some reason or another, neglected to perform the most critical step in creating an accurate profile.



Rabea is a Neural artist. Nothing strange at all.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> Man and they said _profiling_ was finicky...



As the Elder Things will tell you, biomimetics can be challenging...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

DudeManBrother said:


> I’d pick the amp by far in solo, Kemper sounded decent in the mix, and QC had that nasty fizzy top end that that just gets grating. Both Kemper and QC seemed to build up in the low mids, kind of like aliasing that occurs with distortion plugins that don’t allow oversampling. Kemper seems more scooped but the top end isn’t as bad. I’d personally trash both those captures and try again.


yeah to my ears, the QC really pumped up the low end/low mids vs the real amp, and added a bit more fizz (which the stealth had too). The kemper felt dull/dark on the high end comparatively with the same bumped low end as the QC. I didn't like either of the profiles, and given that he's boosting everything, it's not exactly a useful comparison imo.


----------



## SamSam

It finally arrived. Dunno how it sounds but the box is very pretty.


----------



## Flappydoodle

technomancer said:


> Eh I can see seeing which you like better for the purpose of buying one or the other. It's the "does this sound exactly like this other thing over here?" that I find completely pointless. It's a rabbit hole that serves no purpose



Well, one job of the QC (or the only job of the Kemper) is to be able to make it sound *exactly* like the other thing. So, to that end, assessing the ability to perform that job is quite useful.

It just goes back to what I said before that clearly both units ARE capable of good captures, but it isn't idiot-proof. There are still some tricks needed.



KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah to my ears, the QC really pumped up the low end/low mids vs the real amp, and added a bit more fizz (which the stealth had too). The kemper felt dull/dark on the high end comparatively with the same bumped low end as the QC. I didn't like either of the profiles, and given that he's boosting everything, it's not exactly a useful comparison imo.



Yeah, adding a boost to the capture was really weird. Can't think why you'd do that afterwards. 

The Kemper didn't just have minor differences. It sounded like when you use an entirely different IR.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Capture does seem to add fizz in the reviews I listened to (disclaimer: on YT), but as @Flappydoodle said, that may just be due to the fact that it requires human fine-tuning and isn't a one-click process.

Are reverbs/delays comparable to the FM3? All I hear is that they aren't.

Also, will it help my nephew with his trigonometry homework?


----------



## FearComplex

Flappydoodle said:


> The Kemper didn't just have minor differences. It sounded like when you use an entirely different IR.



Word on the Kemper forum is that in addition to the profile being unrefined, "Pure Cabinet" was also enabled on the Kemper, a feature that radically alters the tone. It's not at all surprising then that the Kemper couldn't compete in that comparison.

That said, the Kemper can be tricky to get the low end accurate and stopping the refining at just the right moment is essential. Some amps I've profiled were most accurate with under 5 seconds of refining, any longer than that and the low would begin to bloat and become unruly.

Some amps require a slightly longer refining period, others much longer but I'm yet to encounter a scenario where no refining at all worked best, no refining in my experience has consistently resulted in no balls, often coupled with a dull top end.


----------



## technomancer

Flappydoodle said:


> Well, one job of the QC (or the only job of the Kemper) is to be able to make it sound *exactly* like the other thing. So, to that end, assessing the ability to perform that job is quite useful.
> 
> It just goes back to what I said before that clearly both units ARE capable of good captures, but it isn't idiot-proof. There are still some tricks needed.



The comment was originally in reference to guys in the FM3 threads obsessing about A/B'ing an Axe to their amp hunting for differences. My point was more given no two amps / cabs sound 100% identical what is the point of flipping back and forth looking for differences you wouldn't notice if you just played one or the other.

For the purpose of "how well does this profiling capture the amp" A/B comparisons make sense to judge that obviously, as does seeing how 2 units compare to each other when trying to decide which to buy. The issue with the current crop of vids comes up with stuff where people are clearly tanking one unit to make the other look better in "objective" comparison vids

Anyways, not really interested in the QC so I'll stop derailing the thread


----------



## SamSam

Profiling seems simple enough. Not tried a full chain but profiling my randall via the di out worked fine and seems pretty accurate, maybe lacks a bit of body but not enough to bother me for my first attempts.

Slap on a mesa 4x12 impulse and good to go


----------



## trem licking

MASS DEFECT said:


> I could just imagine gigging with this in a hole in the wall bar. You walk on a sticky beer drenched floor to pee in the dirtiest restroom in the midwest before your set.
> 
> Now, you are playing. You bend down to adjust the gain with the stomp knobs.
> 
> Then you scratch your eyes. lol


visual AIDS


----------



## budda

Wow, the first NGD thread for this I've seen wasn't even on this board .


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Wow, the first NGD thread for this I've seen wasn't even on this board .



I received mine on Wednesday, but since we use this thread it seems rather redundant to post a NGD 

Same with the FM3, I've had it quite a few months now, but I just post in the forums largest NGD.


----------



## Flappydoodle

technomancer said:


> The comment was originally in reference to guys in the FM3 threads obsessing about A/B'ing an Axe to their amp hunting for differences. My point was more given no two amps / cabs sound 100% identical what is the point of flipping back and forth looking for differences you wouldn't notice if you just played one or the other.
> 
> For the purpose of "how well does this profiling capture the amp" A/B comparisons make sense to judge that obviously, as does seeing how 2 units compare to each other when trying to decide which to buy. The issue with the current crop of vids comes up with stuff where people are clearly tanking one unit to make the other look better in "objective" comparison vids
> 
> Anyways, not really interested in the QC so I'll stop derailing the thread



Gotcha. Yeah, I agree with you. Even if you bought 5 SLO100’s, 1960B cabs and SM57s, I doubt you’d get 100% consistent tones v


----------



## KnightBrolaire

He redid the profiling and addressed some concerns. Also showed the difference between refined and unrefined versions on kemper. pure cab was also on for the previous vid.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Gotcha. Yeah, I agree with you. Even if you bought 5 SLO100’s, 1960B cabs and SM57s, I doubt you’d get 100% consistent tones v



I suppose we should test your 5 SLO hypothesis though, for science.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> I suppose we should test your 5 SLO hypothesis though, for science.



I volunteer, somebody ship me the 5 amps


----------



## darkinners

Got the QC yesterday, day one impression is that. (as a user have been using IIXL, AX8, and AxeFX3)
It's so refreshing and pleasant that I can make a preset within 2 mins directly from the unit without connecting to Fracpad or Axe-Edit on the computer.
The parameters on each block are very simple, unlike Fractal's complexity. So far the user experience is excellent but there seem a lot of things that need some refinement, for example, Wifi connection is not very stable, it would disconnect randomly and if you manually reconnect, QC sometimes would still be offline, need a reboot to go back online.
And some graphical issue, like when I download the user IR from Cortex Cloud, after the IR downloaded on QC, the button still display as "Download" instead of "Downloaded", it's pretty annoying to keep track which IR is already downloaded, which is not.

the footswitches on mine do not wobble at all but time will tell, I am pretty sure it will not stay this way indefinitely.

The only downside to me at this moment is the sound and I do not like using an external power adapter, I much prefer built-in power with IEC socket,

While NerualDSP said that they use the same algorithm as their plugins on QC but their plugins sound much much better to my ears, every high gain amp module in QC has a lot of fizz in it, while almost all amp modeler has similar behavior when compared to a real tube amp. QC's is much more severe to a point that makes the sound quite harsh and thin.

The effects quality is average, it's not "bad" bad but generic. Overall I think Axe-FX III wins by a mile in terms of the sound department(Especially on Cygnus firmware, totally a game changer. It's subtle but it adds depth to the sound like you would get with a real amp and real cab in a room)

I will wait a couple months to see if future firmware updates would improve the sound quality or I may sell it. as much as I love the form factor, weight, and the UX, I can't justify $1,600 with this underwhelming amp modeling sound.


----------



## DudeManBrother

KnightBrolaire said:


> He redid the profiling and addressed some concerns. Also showed the difference between refined and unrefined versions on kemper. pure cab was also on for the previous vid.



Way better job by him this time. I still like the amp better, but I know I could dial in the Kemper profile to work well, and I’m sure the QC is tweakable too. They were much closer this go. All around I hate the boosted tones. The top end has a frequency that drives me nuts, but it was there in the real amp too.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

KnightBrolaire said:


> He redid the profiling and addressed some concerns. Also showed the difference between refined and unrefined versions on kemper. pure cab was also on for the previous vid.




Both sounded decently accurate with the Diezel unboosted. The QC completely fell apart when boosted.

Both sounded pretty assy with the Engl. Kemper had that infamous cocked wah shit going on. QC sounded too dull.



DudeManBrother said:


> Way better job by him this time. I still like the amp better, but I know I could dial in the Kemper profile to work well, and I’m sure the QC is tweakable too. They were much closer this go. All around I hate the boosted tones. The top end has a frequency that drives me nuts, but it was there in the real amp too.



Too much gain making the mids all mushy. My main complaint about his videos.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Too much gain making the mids all mushy. My main complaint about his videos.


Usually every Youtube guitar channel with the word "Tone" features absolutely terrible tones


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> Usually every Youtube guitar channel with the word "Tone" features absolutely terrible tones


The dude seems pretty nice and willing to take criticism all things considered... But yeah, if your channel name has "Tone" or "Studio" in it, I'm immediately sus.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Emperoff said:


> Usually every Youtube guitar channel with the word "Tone" features absolutely terrible tones



There has never been a more accurate post in this forums history lol.


----------



## budda

Ataraxia2320 said:


> There has never been a more accurate post in this forums history lol.



"Just buy a 5150" "used ibanez prestige" and "practice" "if the YT channel has tone or studio in the title, beware"


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> "Just buy a 5150" "used ibanez prestige" and "practice" "if the YT channel has tone or studio in the title, beware"



We're about to have to retire JBA5150 because everyone wants their 5150/6505s for ridiculous prices.


----------



## technomancer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> We're about to have to retire JBA5150 because everyone wants their 5150/6505s for ridiculous prices.



Yeah but pretty much everything is going for ridiculous prices now... I am almost tempted to sell a bunch of stuff off just to bank some cash before mandatory 1099 reporting kicks in at $600 next year.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> Yeah but pretty much everything is going for ridiculous prices now... I am almost tempted to sell a bunch of stuff off just to bank some cash before mandatory 1099 reporting kicks in at $600 next year.



This is true. Used prices are absolutely outrageous since the lockdown started. But after EVH died, used prices for his sig gear skyrocketed. I said I'd never sell my EVH 117 Flanger again, but I'm super tempted since I can make a big profit.


----------



## budda

JBACanadian5150 because our dollar is terrible


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> Yeah but pretty much everything is going for ridiculous prices now... I am almost tempted to sell a bunch of stuff off just to bank some cash before mandatory 1099 reporting kicks in at $600 next year.


aaaand yet another reason to not sell shit on reverb or ebay anymore. Last thing I need is to get taxed on selling gear.


----------



## technomancer

KnightBrolaire said:


> aaaand yet another reason to not sell shit on reverb or ebay anymore. Last thing I need is to get taxed on selling gear.



Or use paypal or any other payment processing system. The only way you're not getting a 1099 is to do it in person for cash. For stuff you bought then sold it's not a huge deal as you just need to keep receipts, but for older gear you've had for a while and don't have a receipt for you're pretty much screwed.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

technomancer said:


> Or use paypal or any other payment processing system. The only way you're not getting a 1099 is to do it in person for cash. For stuff you bought then sold it's not a huge deal as you just need to keep receipts, but for older gear you've had for a while and don't have a receipt for you're pretty much screwed.


If you never make a profit then you don't have to do a 1099 amirite*  

*plz irs this is a joke. no audit me


----------



## StevenC

So this seems like the right place to ask: what sort of 5150/6505 should I buy?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

StevenC said:


> So this seems like the right place to ask: what sort of 5150/6505 should I buy?


inb4 budda says buy an axe 3 to get all the 5150s. 

50w stealth seems like the flavor du jour though.


----------



## Emperoff

technomancer said:


> Yeah but pretty much everything is going for ridiculous prices now...



To be honest I think those ridiculous prices are more related to people trying to get back taxing from eBay or Reverb, and can't blame them. I set the price of my tube listings a bit higher there to compensate as well.

Local classfieds seem to have sane prices as always.


----------



## budda

KnightBrolaire said:


> inb4 budda says buy an axe 3 to get all the 5150s.
> 
> 50w stealth seems like the flavor du jour though.



Wrong sir, i would have said get a 6534+


----------



## jephjacques

Got my Quad Cortex in today. I'll do a proper NQCD post after I've played with it more but here are my initial impressions:

- it's cute and smol
- it takes like 90 seconds to get a useable patch set up
- the twisty switches are very cool (but I wouldn't want to use this as a pedalboard, no thank you to stomping on a $1600 piece of gear)
- not many amps, but the ones that are there sound pretty good.
- even fewer cabs, but the mic positioning controls are REALLY nice, and the cabs sound good. and of course you can load your own IRs if you want.

as to whether it sounds "better" or "worse" than an AxeFX, I think it's splitting hairs. When you factor in different speaker IRs, different recording setups, personal subjectivity...I don't know if there's a measurable difference. I'm guessing 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell which was which just by the sound. If you already have an AxeFX you don't need one.

also it comes with a fucking hardcover photo album of the design process, which is so stupendously pretentious I have to respect it


----------



## SamSam

100% agree with everything above, luckily loading up cabs is painless and I smashed in about 200 cabs in a minute.


----------



## narad

jephjacques said:


> also it comes with a fucking hardcover photo album of the design process, which is so stupendously pretentious I have to respect it



Lol, I didn't know that but I'm not surprised.


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> Wrong sir, i would have said get a 6534+



I call shenanigans.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Sumwun to run qc thru amp fx loop and say gud or yux plxkthx


----------



## MrWulf

This thread just make me wonder about AxeFX 3 or the FM3 more tbh


----------



## SamSam

MrWulf said:


> This thread just make me wonder about AxeFX 3 or the FM3 more tbh



The price difference makes the FM3 the best choice. I just bought both because I like having shiny desk trinkets I only use for 30 minutes a day.


----------



## laxu

SamSam said:


> The price difference makes the FM3 the best choice ***.



***If you live in the US. 333 euros price difference vs the Quad Cortex in Europe is a different matter. Helix LT at 999 euros is the cost winner over here.

Each of the top modelers have something that the others don't do as well as some tradeoffs. FM3 has the clunkiest hardware UI and limited switching but the most tweakability and the best software editor. QC has the best hardware UI and capture capability but less features and no software editor at the time of writing. Helix has great switching systems and an easy UI but crap stock cab block and not as good reverbs as Fractal plus it's physically large (but gives you more I/O).

Having done some device to device comparison with FM3 vs Helix I am liking the FM3 a lot more than I thought I would and it might actually end up becoming my desktop modeler while I keep the Helix to go with my tube amps since it works better than the FM3 as an effects/routing/MIDI control box. Quad Cortex might just fall into the gap where I like its UI but find it doesn't do quite enough in its current state. Or it might end up replacing one of them, I'll find out hopefully in about a week or two.

I've bought the Helix and FM3 used so if I sell any of them I won't end up losing any money.


----------



## jephjacques

I think the QC is going to be the box to beat in a year or two once they've fleshed out things a little more. The AxeFX is a big huge rack unit with almost infinite tweakability, but it's overkill for 99% of people.

I look at it like a UAD Apollo Twin vs. an Apollo x16. They're both great, but unless you're a professional studio you probably don't need the x16.


----------



## StevenC

Deadpool_25 said:


> I call shenanigans.


Nah, I was totally expecting budda to say the 6534+. I just forgot to say no EL34s to preempt it.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> Nah, I was totally expecting budda to say the 6534+. I just forgot to say no EL34s to preempt it.



I would play EL34s if they had stainless steel pins.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> I would play EL34s if they had stainless steel pins.



Titanium for the trvest kvlt.


----------



## Mathemagician

SamSam said:


> The price difference makes the FM3 the best choice. I just bought both because I like having shiny desk trinkets I only use for 30 minutes a day.



This is so many more minutes than me.


----------



## StevenC

So I'll go for the 50W Stealth, but who knows when they'll be back in stock over here.


----------



## Emperoff

BTW, Neural is running a 50% discount in all their plugins, in case anyone is interested.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

Emperoff said:


> BTW, Neural is running a 50% discount in all their plugins, in case anyone is interested.



Soldano plugin is excluded from discount, just fyi ^.


----------



## laxu

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Soldano plugin is excluded from discount, just fyi ^.



That really sucks, that's the only one I considered buying.

Meanwhile my QC from Thomann just got delayed to the end of the month again...oh well, more time for FM3 Cygnus and Helix 3.1 to get released!


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> That really sucks, that's the only one I considered buying.
> 
> Meanwhile my QC from Thomann just got delayed to the end of the month again...oh well, more time for FM3 Cygnus and Helix 3.1 to get released!



QC orders got delayed again?







Shocking


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> QC orders got delayed again?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shocking



The ultimate irony is that it happened to laxu of all people.


----------



## laxu

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The ultimate irony is that it happened to laxu of all people.



Well I was never on the direct from NDSP preorder train so I pretty much expected that it would arrive when it arrives. Of course I'd rather get it sooner than later. All these delays just give Fractal and Line6 time to get Cygnus for FM3 and Helix 3.1 firmwares out and those are really the ones I want to put head to head with the QC for an ultimate modeler battle royale.

Even the cost of all these is not much of an issue since I can send the QC back and easily sell Helix or FM3 for what I paid for them used.


----------



## Elric

narad said:


> Lol, I didn't know that but I'm not surprised.


The design book was a Preorder ‘perk’... mine also came with two stickers, a pick, and a certificate of authenticity. The ones from dealers definitely won’t come with the book; not sure about all the rest of the Box candy.... They wanted to come up w/ something as a payoff/incentive for the folks who dished out early on the deposit and stayed the course after the initial delays.

This thing is a f*cking beast, BTW. Great amp feel on the models... Hoping they fill out the amp model stable and beef up the FX, the selection feels totally anemic compared to my Axe III. 

The 412 cabs are something like 60% V30s and the rest some flavor of Greenback, so they need some variety as well... but they do sound really good unlike pretty much everyone else but Fractal. I find myself moving the mics a little bit further off center than the default to take some of the high end edge off them rather than using a filter or something.

The captures are freaking legit and probably the highlight of the current release.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The ultimate irony is that it happened to laxu of all people.


lmao


----------



## budda

@Elric but which sounds better to you?


----------



## SamSam

Mathemagician said:


> This is so many more minutes than me.



Well, I did say use and not necessarily play...

It's not going to downnoad presets, captures and updates by itself. Yet anyway... 

In my defence, I actually met up with a friend to do a mini shootout between the QC, the FM3 and the helix through an amp and cab (victory v30 and v30 2x12 in this case). 

Ive got to say, they all sound really great. You really cant go wrong with any of these units. We got my friend a great plexi tone set up for his gigging set up with the helix and we had a good time messing about with the rest!


----------



## USMarine75

Orders delayed...

So who's buying one of the $6,000 QCs on Reverb?


----------



## Emperoff

Elric said:


> mine also came with two stickers, a pick, and a certificate of authenticity.



A certificate of authenticity?

Thank god, now I can safely order a QC from Aliexpress 



USMarine75 said:


> Orders delayed...
> 
> So who's buying one of the $6,000 QCs on Reverb?


_"Brand new NDSP quad cortex. Here’s the deal, I had every intention of keeping the pre-order and then when delays hit bought an FM3. I’m used to it and like it and also was lucky enough to snag a novo select order. So with that, I’m listing this. Not going to say it’s the best ever, etc cause I have no idea. Yes I’m flipping it and I understand not everyone will like that. If it doesn’t sell I’ll keep it. Thanks for looking!

Comes with all the pre-order stuff (i.e. book, signed COA, etc)."
_
*3000€*_ _


----------



## laxu

Elric said:


> T
> The 412 cabs are something like 60% V30s and the rest some flavor of Greenback, so they need some variety as well... but they do sound really good unlike pretty much everyone else but Fractal. I find myself moving the mics a little bit further off center than the default to take some of the high end edge off them rather than using a filter or something.



Yeah when I saw the cab list I was like "do we really need this many 4x12s with V30s" but I guess they could just throw in every set of IRs they already have for their plugins.


----------



## Metropolis

_*We have over 10,000 QC’s on order from dealers worldwide, and Thomann (as well as Sweetwater, Anderton’s and others) are getting inventory within 1-2 weeks. 

They’ve sold far more than they could have initially anticipated, so naturally people who ordered early will receive their QC’s from them shortly after, those who ordered later will have to wait a bit longer. 

No conspiracies, just plain the old boring “being sold out”.

Kind regards,
Doug.
*_
Just quoting what Doug just wrote on TGP. QC has sold pretty well...


----------



## jephjacques

Emperoff said:


> A certificate of authenticity?
> 
> Thank god, now I can safely order a QC from Aliexpress
> 
> 
> _"Brand new NDSP quad cortex. Here’s the deal, I had every intention of keeping the pre-order and then when delays hit bought an FM3. I’m used to it and like it and also was lucky enough to snag a novo select order. So with that, I’m listing this. Not going to say it’s the best ever, etc cause I have no idea. Yes I’m flipping it and I understand not everyone will like that. If it doesn’t sell I’ll keep it. Thanks for looking!
> 
> Comes with all the pre-order stuff (i.e. book, signed COA, etc)."
> _
> *3000€*_ _



I wanna find this guy and beat him up


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Emperoff said:


> A certificate of authenticity?
> 
> Thank god, now I can safely order a QC from Aliexpress
> 
> 
> _"Brand new NDSP quad cortex. Here’s the deal, I had every intention of keeping the pre-order and then when delays hit bought an FM3. I’m used to it and like it and also was lucky enough to snag a novo select order. So with that, I’m listing this. Not going to say it’s the best ever, etc cause I have no idea. Yes I’m flipping it and I understand not everyone will like that. If it doesn’t sell I’ll keep it. Thanks for looking!
> 
> Comes with all the pre-order stuff (i.e. book, signed COA, etc)."
> _
> *3000€*_ _


that dipshit is also selling it on craigslist semi locally to me. I saw that posting and laughed my ass off.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

These people (Including the Essex Studios guy) are the people that deserve to be cyberbullied.


----------



## Randy




----------



## Jeff

darkinners said:


> *The only downside to me at this moment is the sound *and I do not like using an external power adapter, I much prefer built-in power with IEC socket,



So, like the main point of the whole box?  and the external power supply on a $1600 unit is absolutely bullshit. I don't care what anyone says, that's Busch league. The Helix LT has IEC, the FM3 has IEC, Kemper Floor has IEC, etc. come on now.


----------



## darkinners

Jeff said:


> So, like the main point of the whole box?  and the external power supply on a $1600 unit is absolutely bullshit. I don't care what anyone says, that's Busch league. The Helix LT has IEC, the FM3 has IEC, Kemper Floor has IEC, etc. come on now.



Yes but I will wait a bit to see if future firmware up will improve the sound quality, at this moment. Neural DSP plugin sounds much better even with the same 3rd party IRs. I have all the NeuralDSP plugins from the oldest (B7k) to the latest (SLO), I like them a lot that's why I pre-order QC when it's announced and disappointed upon received my unit, it does not sound as good as the plugins. 

I kinda understand why they cannot include the internal power supply, the noise, and heat makes them hard to pass EMC compliance and some countries have high annuity fee to have internal AC power, also easier to manage stock with an external AC adapter plus all plug type than all different version with different IEC power lead. Still I hate external AC/DC adapter.


----------



## laxu

A lot of folks seem to actually like the external power adapter because they can use the same power supply for their pedals and the QC. Personally I don't care too much either way as long as it's not one of those stupid laptop bricks with cables coming out from both ends.


----------



## spudmunkey

I like


laxu said:


> A lot of folks seem to actually like the external power adapter because they can use the same power supply for their pedals and the QC. Personally I don't care too much either way as long as it's not one of those stupid laptop bricks with cables coming out from both ends.



U like those. Because they don't block additional plugs on a power strip, if the brick can rest in the ground it's less likely to pull out of a wall plug, and if one of the cords are removable, you can relaxed it with a longer one so you don't also have to carry an additional extension cord.


----------



## Matt08642

budda said:


> JBACanadian5150 because our dollar is terrible


----------



## Backsnack

Emperoff said:


> BTW, Neural is running a 50% discount in all their plugins, in case anyone is interested.


I was about to buy Archetype Gojira until I saw these videos. Paging @laxu and anyone else who has a Helix.


----------



## laxu

Backsnack said:


> I was about to buy Archetype Gojira until I saw these videos. Paging @laxu and anyone else who has a Helix.




The NeuralDSP plugins are all about their cab sims and especially how their presets are set up. Last year when NeuralDSP had a sale on their plugins I tried them all and then decided to see if I could replicate a sound I liked on one of them (maybe Nolly?) using the plugins I had already.

So I hooked up Helix Native -> ML Sound Lab MIKKO, used the closest equivalent Helix amp model with no cab sim. Cab sim was handled by MIKKO since it allows moving virtual mics around like NeuralDSP plugins. Then I picked the closest cab and mics there and started adjusting the mics to a similar position as the NeuralDSP plugin's preset. I got very similar results but it took me a good amount of trial and error.

The way I see it, you don't buy NeuralDSP plugins because they have superior modeling (they _are_ good but just on par with others like Helix or ML Sound Lab), you buy them because they have very good presets and nice to use user interfaces with some nice sounding effects. They are a good choice for someone who just wants to get a nice sound without that much effort. 

Most of the high gain ones are similar enough that I don't see a huge reason to own multiple of them, just pick a favorite. I could use the Soldano SLO plugin and get everything I need from that one alone. Nolly is probably the most versatile of them and the Cory Wong is unique because it is less about high gain stuff and more about tones meant for funky clean-ish sounds.

Helix Native by comparison has pretty crap presets and requires more effort from the end user but the tones are all there and the feature set is unmatched in a plugin. The stock cab sims are rubbish tho and IR space limited. But since it's a plugin you can just throw your favorite IR loader after it to solve the problem.

Same deal with Fractal FM3 vs Helix Floor. I can dial them to sound and feel very close when using the same cab sims.


----------



## Backsnack

laxu said:


> The NeuralDSP plugins are all about their cab sims and especially how their presets are set up. Last year when NeuralDSP had a sale on their plugins I tried them all and then decided to see if I could replicate a sound I liked on one of them (maybe Nolly?) using the plugins I had already.
> 
> So I hooked up Helix Native -> ML Sound Lab MIKKO, used the closest equivalent Helix amp model with no cab sim. Cab sim was handled by MIKKO since it allows moving virtual mics around like NeuralDSP plugins. Then I picked the closest cab and mics there and started adjusting the mics to a similar position as the NeuralDSP plugin's preset. I got very similar results but it took me a good amount of trial and error.
> 
> The way I see it, you don't buy NeuralDSP plugins because they have superior modeling (they _are_ good but just on par with others like Helix or ML Sound Lab), you buy them because they have very good presets and nice to use user interfaces with some nice sounding effects. They are a good choice for someone who just wants to get a nice sound without that much effort.
> 
> Most of the high gain ones are similar enough that I don't see a huge reason to own multiple of them, just pick a favorite. I could use the Soldano SLO plugin and get everything I need from that one alone. Nolly is probably the most versatile of them and the Cory Wong is unique because it is less about high gain stuff and more about tones meant for funky clean-ish sounds.
> 
> Helix Native by comparison has pretty crap presets and requires more effort from the end user but the tones are all there and the feature set is unmatched in a plugin. The stock cab sims are rubbish tho and IR space limited. But since it's a plugin you can just throw your favorite IR loader after it to solve the problem.
> 
> Same deal with Fractal FM3 vs Helix Floor. I can dial them to sound and feel very close when using the same cab sims.


Yeah I agree with all of that, including Mikko. I have Nolly and Granophyre and I have a hard time justifying buying any more of them.

Up until recently I would have bought Gojira just for the whammy effect, but now that Helix has that as well, not really necessary. The rest of the modulation effects and dirt boxes are there too, albeit with some tweaking.

Like the guy in the video says: Helix/Helix Native gives you a long spool of rope with which to hang yourself. Neural stuff is just super easy to use, but less flexible. Helix Native on sale price is easily one of the best pieces of software for guitar anyone can have in their collection, but I'll still hang onto a couple Neural things because they're just quicker if I want to plug in an jam for a bit.


----------



## Jeff

darkinners said:


> Yes but I will wait a bit to see if future firmware up will improve the sound quality, at this moment. Neural DSP plugin sounds much better even with the same 3rd party IRs. I have all the NeuralDSP plugins from the oldest (B7k) to the latest (SLO), I like them a lot that's why I pre-order QC when it's announced and disappointed upon received my unit, it does not sound as good as the plugins.
> 
> I kinda understand why they cannot include the internal power supply, the noise, and heat makes them hard to pass EMC compliance and some countries have high annuity fee to have internal AC power, also easier to manage stock with an external AC adapter plus all plug type than all different version with different IEC power lead. Still I hate external AC/DC adapter.



Well I’m truly sorry to hear that, man. I’d be fucking pissed if I were you.


----------



## budda

So who else has received one, is it meeting the hype?


----------



## mpexus

budda said:


> So who else has received one, is it meeting the hype?


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> So who else has received one, is it meeting the hype?



Not many it seems.

#444 here, it's a nice unit, not superior to the fractal stuff. But still great and the profiling is good fun. I am currently using it more tha my FM3 although that may be because its plugged into my mac.

My FM3 doesnt even do anything when I plug it in to a usb port, so I cant compare cygnus or the latest firmware. It might connect once in 15 attempts... sounds great though! But yea, neither is flawless, but at least I can update one of them!


----------



## budda

@SamSam I'd open a support ticket regarding the connectivity.


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> @SamSam I'd open a support ticket regarding the connectivity.



I'm on my second unit already, it worked better with my 2012 imac compared to my new mac mini. None of their suggestions work, hence I'm on my second unit.


----------



## budda

SamSam said:


> I'm on my second unit already, it worked better with my 2012 imac compared to my new mac mini. None of their suggestions work, hence I'm on my second unit.



Im not gonna tell you how to resolve it


----------



## SamSam

budda said:


> Im not gonna tell you how to resolve it



Oddly enough it works perfectly with my mates macbook


----------



## Dead-Pan

As this thing can load multiple captures check this comparison showing the sound of capturing the pedal separate vs baked into the amp capture.

Which do you prefer the sound of?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I found the capture sounded better


----------



## Thrashman

General consensus from most including myself is that it doesn't deliver what's promised modelling wise - it's good but it desperately needs 6-12 months of updates before it reaches its true potential IMHO.


----------



## mpexus

Thrashman said:


> General consensus from most including myself is that it doesn't deliver what's promised modelling wise - it's good but it desperately needs 6-12 months of updates before it reaches its true potential IMHO.


Then why buy it now?


----------



## sleewell

mpexus said:


> Then why buy it now?




how else would he have found out? 

props in my book for basing your opinion on personal first hand experience instead of comments from forums and youtube vids.


----------



## mpexus

sleewell said:


> how else would he have found out?
> 
> props in my book for basing your opinion on personal first hand experience instead of comments from forums and youtube vids.



I wasn't directing my reply to him directly but for all those that made an order and are waiting. A lot of the promises seems to be just promises and the unit is not delivering it, yet I still almost daily (on FB) see people saying they just placed an order on it. Doesn't make sense to me but its not my money so I can only seat back and kinda laugh


----------



## sleewell

sounds good enough to me, i would buy one just to find out if i liked it or not.

plus you would not take much, if any, hit on the resale so its not like it would be a costly ordeal. trying new gear is fun.


----------



## budda

mpexus said:


> I wasn't directing my reply to him directly but for all those that made an order and are waiting. A lot of the promises seems to be just promises and the unit is not delivering it, yet I still almost daily (on FB) see people saying they just placed an order on it. Doesn't make sense to me but its not my money so I can only seat back and kinda laugh



Hype train gonna hype.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> Hype train gonna hype.



Yep. Saw a bunch of people saying this has better modeling than the Axe 3 before it even hit the oublic.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yep. Saw a bunch of people saying this has better modeling than the Axe 3 before it even hit the oublic.


If Apple can sell stuff 3x times its value just because it's white, they sure can hype the biomimetic modelling too!


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Emperoff said:


> If Apple can sell stuff 3x times its value just because it's white, they sure can hype the biomimetic modelling too!



At least Apple (mostly) delivers on the features they list.


----------



## Emperoff

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> At least Apple (mostly) delivers on the features they list.



Well, they better deliver if charging 3x times more per same specs than the competition


----------



## mpexus

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> At least Apple (mostly) delivers on the features they list.



Wait until Neural starts charging extra for the Power Suply


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

mpexus said:


> Wait until Neural starts charging extra for the Power Suply



Dont give them ideas


----------



## narad

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Dont give them ideas



50% off for existing customers tho


----------



## Elric

mpexus said:


> I wasn't directing my reply to him directly but for all those that made an order and are waiting. A lot of the promises seems to be just promises and the unit is not delivering it, yet I still almost daily (on FB) see people saying they just placed an order on it. Doesn't make sense to me but its not my money so I can only seat back and kinda laugh


FWIW, I have one. I got one because, I like the form factor, I am really impressed by Neural’s plugins, and I have never owned a device that can capture/profile gear and it was either this or the Kemper which is long in the tooth and the floor model had a bunch of issues when it came out so why not check out the new hot thing? Worst case scenario I flip it for $500 more than I paid?

The other thing is, having owned Fractal stuff since the Ultra, I like owning something that is on the cutting edge of the tech, getting updates, evolving, having new stuff added to play around with over time, etc, and this thing is off to a good start from a great company... I have a bunch of other gear including an Axe III, so this device is not the lynchpin of my toanz... It is like a backup and a means to play with profiling tech.

So far, IMHO, the hardware: A++. Incredible. Form factor, screen/UI, the button knob things, almost everything is perfect, which is awesome because none of that can be fixed with firmware.

The tones are good to great on the modeling, need to fill out the rest of the original model list but what’s there certainly holds its own with the other expensive gizmos. The feel is great maybe as good or better than the Axe...

The captures are great across the board and probably worth the cost of the device alone. I never owned a Kemper. Audio demos imply they are probably about equal at minimum comments from those that have owned both sound like the QC might even be better out of the gate.

The FX need help. Most of what there is solid but not inspiring. Can tell they were not 100% done here at time of release. If you are not doing a bunch of ambient P&W stuff, you can get by on what is there though. You know, Drive, Delay, Basic Verb. It’ll do for now.

The data management (how you handle IRs, Captures, etc) and the cloud thing is half baked. If that functionality is super important you will want to hold off. I am annoyed by this because I have been doing captures but it is not so bad that I cannot use the device. I do think it needs to get sorted for this device to live up to its promise.

So, yeah this thing is off to a great start and should be a blast to own, why wouldn’t I want one?


----------



## laxu

Mine just shipped after 5 months and 16 days from when I preordered it. So next week I will be able to give some thoughts as well.


----------



## budda

Hey @laxu can you a/b with the fm3 for noise floor when it arrives? Curious about that.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Hey @laxu can you a/b with the fm3 for noise floor when it arrives? Curious about that.



Sure.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Not surprised people are trying to flip their QCs for hundreds more than they paid. Gotta love seeing a $1600 box being sold for $2300+.


----------



## budda

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Not surprised people are trying to flip their QCs for hundreds more than they paid. Gotta love seeing a $1600 box being sold for $2300+.



Which is wild because thats axe 3 money.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> Which is wild because thats axe 3 money.



And I've seen Axe 3's go below $2k used.


----------



## budda

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> And I've seen Axe 3's go below $2k used.



They should, iirc they're $2100usd new


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> They should, iirc they're $2100usd new


Oh shit you're right. FOr some reason I was thinking they were still $2400 or $2500.


----------



## laxu

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Not surprised people are trying to flip their QCs for hundreds more than they paid. Gotta love seeing a $1600 box being sold for $2300+.



Some always do this when something is new, desirable and hard to get. Doesn't matter if it's guitar gear, game consoles etc. The idiots are the people paying.


----------



## Santuzzo

I have been saving up for a Helix rack unit (or so I thought), but now after watching some of the demos and reviews of the Quad Cortex on YT, I'm torn, I might want to get this instead of a Helix.....


----------



## cardinal

I kinda hate myself for it, but I'm almost sure to end up buying one when they become readily available. I really don't want to get caught up in the modeler v modeler debate, but the QC looks pretty neat.


----------



## laxu

My Quad Cortex arrived today. First impressions:

The good:

Easy to use, building a preset is basically exactly the same as Helix except instead of a joystick you use a touchscreen. That might be more of a testament to how good the Helix UI is.
Touchscreen is responsive. 

Knob/switches feel good to use. Didn't try it on the floor yet so can't say how nice it is to stomp.
Looks and feels more fancy as an object than FM3 or Helix.
Cab block is really nice to use. Adjusting virtual mics makes it fast to make small tweaks to the cab sound.
Updating the device was really easy.
Amp models vs captures sound equally good to my ears.
I haven't tried a lot of the effects yet but liked how the delays and reverbs sounded.
The bad:

Boot time is really long. I made sure to restart it again after updates because post-update boot times can be longer. Still, the boot time is basically 4 times as long as Helix and twice as long as FM3!
Standby mode just disables I/O, lights, controls and screen. IMO not particularly useful, I hope they rework it into a sleep mode similar to computers so it will boot up really quickly.
Changing models is a bit inconvenient as it needs several clicks to see the menu. You can turn the top right knob to change to an adjacent model easily tho.
Had noise issues at first but somehow they went away after awhile? I have no idea what is up with that but will report if I find something.
Noise gate takes a block instead of being built into the input block like on FM3 and Helix.
Knowing which model is in which block is impossible without opening it. Same as Helix. Mainly an issue when you have say several of the same block in a preset.
I don't like the scene setup where any changes in a scene apply to the block only in that scene. Helix's way of assigning a scene controller manually is IMO better. Now you need to remember to change things in every scene. Maybe this is something that can be changed, have to learn more.
Scene label should be visible in main screen, the small scene letter is not enough.
Mapping on screen controls to physical controls could be more obvious. I often ended up adjusting the D knob because it was under the screen when the control I wanted was E. Adding letters for each control would help a lot.
EQs have some precision issues where for example turning a control one notch would jump from say 70 Hz to 76 instead of 71.
Have had some minor UI quirks happen like send 1 not marked as enabled in I/O menu or a menu expanding incorrectly.
What about the sound and feel? Well, I hooked up the QC (firmware 1.01) to my Fractal FM3 (fw 3.03 beta 1) for comparison. FM3 was hooked up so that QC sends signal to FM3 input and receives a stereo signal from FM3 output back in. Cab and fx were from QC for both so I could compare just the amp models. I tried to match input/output levels as close as possible so the FM3 does not behave differently from plugging straight in. I tested the Vox AC30 Top boost and Soldano SLO lead models on each unit. For no other reason than I like those two.

The AC30 models were fairly close, but the Soldano SLO sounded absolutely massive on QC! It was almost like it was in stereo and the FM3 was mono. I had to double check several times that the FM3 is not sending mono signal. The QC just had a more 3 dimensional sound to it and a lot fuller low end. I tried tweaking the FM3 to match but could not get it to sound the same. This might be what the Axe-Fx 3 Cygnus update will do the sound but I can't tell until it lands on the FM3. Will re-evaluate then. 

In terms of feel I tried both models with guitar volume rolled down, picking harder and softer, split coil vs humbucker. To me they behaved in a similar fashion.

Obviously you don't have anywhere near the advanced features FM3 has littered everywhere. Makes things easier to use but means you need to rely more on EQ blocks for further tone shaping as there's no way to adjust model sag or change them beyond what controls the real amp offers. I doubt this is going to change.

I think around this time next year this will be a really good device. It still needs its lineup of fx, amps and cabs filled in and there's a bunch they can do to improve the UI. I will need to spend more time with it and decide if I want to keep it or return, wait for various updates and maybe buy again later.


----------



## Santuzzo

thanks, laxu for this first impression review!


----------



## laxu

Day two! On my lunch break I decided to fire up my real amp rig and see how the QC performs running into that.

Setup:

Guitar: Carvin C66 with Suhr Doug Aldrich pickups and OFR
BluGuitar Amp 1 ME -> Bluetone 4x10 (10" Greenbacks)
Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead -> Bluetone Loadbox -> BluGuitar Amp 1 fx return
QC -> BluGuitar Amp 1 ME fx return
Volumes matched with a decibel meter to around 90-93 dB @ 1m.
Cables switch around a bit to switch between the setups
Basically the Amp 1 was acting as just a poweramp in most cases but I did test it with its own preamps as well.

I tried the following models on QC:

Soldano SLO Lead
Marshall JCM800 2203 boosted with Boss SD1
Vox AC30 Top boost
Fender Super Reverb Vibrato channel
Fryette Sig:X (factory capture)
Peavey 5150
EVH 5150 III
Diezel VH4 channels 3 and 4
I could get good sounds out of all of these but the standouts were the SLO, Fryette, boosted JCM800 and AC30. This does not mean there is anything wrong with the others, just that these fitted my personal preferences the best.

The BluGuitar was no slouch either and I felt it could get just as good tones as the QC. Obviously within the limitations of the device, the more Marshallish tones you are after the better the experience.

Ultimately even when run through a loadbox the real Bogner has just something going on that makes it absolutely perfect for what I like to hear. It was sweeter than the Super Reverb model for cleans and just sounded and felt just that little bit better than all of the QC models and BluGuitar for overdrive to heavy distortion. Did not matter how I dialed the Bogner in, it always came out as the top dog. I must try capturing the Bogner and see how the QC handles that.

That doesn't mean the QC and BluGuitar aren't really good. Without comparison I would have no trouble enjoying either device and there is something to be said for portability and versatility too.

I like working with the QC, it's easy to use. A complaint I do have is having to remember to toggle fx and adjust settings in each scene whereas Helix basically lets me use the same block settings in every snapshot unless I want to change something in the snapshot. It's basically just a reversed process where you can make the QC use scene A settings for controls but need to specifically unassign scene control from each parameter. I hope NDSP add an option to reverse this as for me the opposite workflow is easier.

So QC into real guitar cabs works just fine.


----------



## budda

So how does it fare as an actual floor unit?


----------



## sleewell

just found out one of my fav bands Distant is now using the QC in the studio and live. freaking love their tones.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> So how does it fare as an actual floor unit?



Easy to read and adjust and I don't feel the spacing of the switches is too tight at least for my size 10 US feet. Might need a bit more deliberate touch to get the right switch compared to say FM3 or Helix but not too bad. At least there's no switch state management like the FM3 requires on its own.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> My Quad Cortex arrived today. First impressions:
> 
> The bad:
> 
> Boot time is really long. I made sure to restart it again after updates because post-update boot times can be longer. Still, the boot time is basically 4 times as long as Helix and twice as long as FM3!
> Standby mode just disables I/O, lights, controls and screen. IMO not particularly useful, I hope they rework it into a sleep mode similar to computers so it will boot up really quickly.
> Changing models is a bit inconvenient as it needs several clicks to see the menu. You can turn the top right knob to change to an adjacent model easily tho.
> Had noise issues at first but somehow they went away after awhile? I have no idea what is up with that but will report if I find something.
> Noise gate takes a block instead of being built into the input block like on FM3 and Helix.
> Knowing which model is in which block is impossible without opening it. Same as Helix. Mainly an issue when you have say several of the same block in a preset.
> I don't like the scene setup where any changes in a scene apply to the block only in that scene. Helix's way of assigning a scene controller manually is IMO better. Now you need to remember to change things in every scene. Maybe this is something that can be changed, have to learn more.
> Scene label should be visible in main screen, the small scene letter is not enough.
> Mapping on screen controls to physical controls could be more obvious. I often ended up adjusting the D knob because it was under the screen when the control I wanted was E. Adding letters for each control would help a lot.
> EQs have some precision issues where for example turning a control one notch would jump from say 70 Hz to 76 instead of 71.
> Have had some minor UI quirks happen like send 1 not marked as enabled in I/O menu or a menu expanding incorrectly.



I appreciate the review, but the amount of first world problems on this post is just hilarious 

_"EQs have some precision issues where for example turning a control one notch would jump from say 70 Hz to 76 instead of 71." _

5hz ruined my tone. Damn you Obama!


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> Easy to read and adjust and I don't feel the spacing of the switches is too tight at least for my size 10 US feet. Might need a bit more deliberate touch to get the right switch compared to say FM3 or Helix but not too bad. At least there's no switch state management like the FM3 requires on its own.



Of the 3, which footswitches are you most worried about for live use? 

Im assuming the adjustments for tone and screen brightness do their jobs well?


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Of the 3, which footswitches are you most worried about for live use?
> 
> Im assuming the adjustments for tone and screen brightness do their jobs well?



QC for sure. Not because of any durability concerns, just because they are closer together it might be easier to press the wrong one.

But at the same time using FM3 on its own would be pretty horrible on stage as you could have 3 scenes and then need mode switching or to map hold functions for more. Then even more for switching presets. If I worry about pressing the wrong one on QC because of the spacing, then I would worry about putting the FM3 in the wrong footswitch mode and that making me miss my scene switch. Easily solved with an extra controller of course.

QC does less rugged than the FM3 right next to it. The Fractal looks like a tank, in both good and bad ways. I mean it literally looks like a tank, just missing a barrel and some treads. Hmm, it would be hilarious if you put a camo vinyl skin on it and mounted some sort of barrel to one of the unused jacks. 

Screen brightness is similar to FM3 where it does not go particularly dark or super bright. It's fine.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> I appreciate the review, but the amount of first world problems on this post is just hilarious
> 
> _"EQs have some precision issues where for example turning a control one notch would jump from say 70 Hz to 76 instead of 71." _
> 
> 5hz ruined my tone. Damn you Obama!



It is an issue if you literally cannot set it to 71 Hz it jumps so much on a single notch of the encoder. Sure, that small difference won't really matter but it's still an issue.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> It is an issue if you literally cannot set it to 71 Hz it jumps so much on a single notch of the encoder. Sure, that small difference won't really matter but it's still an issue.



I really hope you never have to use a studio hardware EQ


----------



## MASS DEFECT

My bandmate already got his. The screen sure looks pretty! The graphics and the colors are much better than the helix. It is very very responsive, too. 
While the chassis is not rugged looking, it is minimalistic and classy. 

As for the sound, a full band rehearsal next week would be the deciding factor for him. He is plugging into my Matrix 1600 power amp. 

I am using my old, trusty AX8.


----------



## sleewell

has anyone heard when these will be in stock?


----------



## laxu

I tried capturing my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead. Capture seems to work well! I have only tried it with headphones so far. My captures sound frighteningly close to the real amp but only if I reduce the gain control on the capture block by about 10 dB. I think I have done something wrong somewhere but even then the QC got real close when setup like this.

The real comparison will be when I try running capture vs amp through the BluGuitar Amp 1 ME as poweramp into a real cab.


----------



## AltecGreen

sleewell said:


> has anyone heard when these will be in stock?



It will be a while unless you already have a pre-order in. In the US via Sweetwater, it looks like they are shipping out to people who pre-ordered in January 2021. Sweetwater had something like 2000 pre-orders and they have received 780 to date. Dealers are getting something like 200-500 per shipment from Neural every 2-3 weeks. If you order now, you maybe looking at end of the year.


----------



## laxu

AltecGreen said:


> It will be a while unless you already have a pre-order in. In the US via Sweetwater, it looks like they are shipping out to people who pre-ordered in January 2021. Sweetwater had something like 2000 pre-orders and they have received 780 to date. Dealers are getting something like 200-500 per shipment from Neural every 2-3 weeks. If you order now, you maybe looking at end of the year.



Meanwhile Thomann says basically "it will take multiple months". I would expect if you preorder now you might get one in the fall at the earliest.

My recommendation would be to not worry about getting one unless they significantly increase the price because by next year it will be a more feature packed unit and you will avoid a lot of early owner issues. As it is right now I think most things on the unit work just fine but there's improvements to be made for sure.

@sleewell If you are not specifically after the touchscreen, capture and form factor, consider a Helix LT. It's much cheaper and operates almost identically except using a joystick over touchscreen. While it's less powerful, it can still do more than what most guitarists need. So can the FM3. Consider your usecases as well. Helix and FM3 come with a computer editor so if you mostly work with your DAW then it's going to be easier to do everything on one screen. If you prefer instead working from the hardware itself the Helix and QC are a far better experience than FM3. FM3 will work just fine if you do most of your preset building on the computer.

Now that I have all three there's no clear winner here. They're all good to the point that it's hard to pick just one and say it's "the best".


----------



## laxu

Another day, another lunch break jam time! Working from home has its perks.

This time I tried my Bogner GF45 SL captures through the BluGuitar AMP 1 as poweramp, Bluetone 4x10 w/ 10" Greenbacks as cab and with my real Bogner running through a Bluetone Loadbox into the QC and then to the BluGuitar as well so I can easily A/B between them. I used a decibel meter to make sure the output volume from the cab was the same, around 89-92 dB today. Same Carvin C66 used too, it's just one gloriously good guitar.

The captures of my Bogner are all on the overdrive channel with tones ranging from low to mid gain Plexi tones to roaring boosted high gain Marshall goodness using the amp's own boost.

I had to turn the gain down somewhere between 6-10 dB on the QC capture to match the real amp, I think I have some issue with my capture setup to cause the gain discrepancy. I will see if adjusting I/O levels and redoing the captures will fix that.

The amp and QC captures sounded and felt close running through a real cab too! What was pretty impressive is that turning down my guitar volume or picking harder/softer behaved very close to the real amp. Seriously impressed with this tech and I wasn't even expecting to be into the captures. Using the factory captures would be a good way to find if some real amp will sound good through your favorite cab. I can say that the Mesa JP2C and Fryette Sig:X definitely would!

Next I tried the QC capture block EQ. This is where you run into similar issues as you do on the Kemper, it will deviate from the sound of the real amp. I used each control all the way down and all the way up and there were differences compared to the amp EQ range where for example the mids are in a bit different position and had different range. QC is +/- 6 dB for each knob. But this was pretty much expected as there is variance in pots, tonestacks etc. I felt that even with drastic EQ changes it still sounded mostly like the real amp. If you knew the frequency ranges of the real amp's EQ you could probably use a parametric EQ to get the tone shaping to match.

I now have a bit more experience using the unit on the floor and can say that it's no problem hitting the footswitches as long as you look before you stomp. The screen is also very easy to read but I wish the selected scene was more visible in the main view. Just a small letter is not enough. You can just swipe from the bottom to get a big scene view so that solves it. Thanks to the touchscreen it's also easy to name your scenes right from the device whereas it's a bit of a chore on Fractal and Helix that you don't want to do it regularly without the computer editor. 

So far I have not felt at all that having the desktop editor would be needed but I haven't tried any of the cloud features yet.


----------



## budda

Wait, you'd have to swipe mid set to see your scene info?


----------



## Deadpool_25

Thanks for the insight @laxu 
I was definitely curious how it works through a loop and into a real cab and it sounds like it works just fine that way.

So there have been some mixed reports on CPU with multiple amps and delays. Can you build a preset with:

Wah (can it do wah?)
Two flangers
Chorus
Two or three delays
Boost
3 amps (ideally plexi, Dual Rec, VH4 each going to a separate output)
I’m just wondering if that’ll all fit into a preset without hitting a CPU cap.


----------



## Elric

budda said:


> Wait, you'd have to swipe mid set to see your scene info?


Unless you keep the scene display up... that is meant to be like a ‘performance’ view. That said, I asked Neural to put scene names on the actual edit screen, too. It’s dumb that you just have a letter there. I did not even realize you could name scenes at first.


----------



## Elric

Deadpool_25 said:


> Thanks for the insight @laxu
> I was definitely curious how it works through a loop and into a real cab and it sounds like it works just fine that way.


Yes, it is like the Fractal... some models/caps are crushing with any given power amp/cab. Others s*ck.  There is enough variety with the caps that you won’t get bored or be at a loss for something you are trying to accomplish...



> So there have been some mixed reports on CPU with multiple amps and delays. Can you build a preset with:
> 
> Wah (can it do wah?)
> Two flangers
> Chorus
> Two or three delays
> Boost
> 3 amps (ideally plexi, Dual Rec, VH4 each going to a separate output)
> I’m just wondering if that’ll all fit into a preset without hitting a CPU cap.


Haven’t tried this but based on other presets I have done, I’d be surprised if that weren’t pretty easy to do. Maybe I am over-estimating it though, LOL.... I think the Reverbs needed to be optimized.

It can do Wah but it might as well not have it yet because they do not support auto-engage yet.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Wait, you'd have to swipe mid set to see your scene info?



No, you can just swipe up from the bottom of the screen to get the Gig View:







This can be set to show presets, scenes or stomps and how they map to the switches, what is active and what their names are. For gigging this view is probably what you will be using all the time. Massively easier to see than Home view on FM3.

For editing you can see the selected scene in the block editor and as a small letter in the corner. I would prefer to see the scene name here because now I feel it's often not that easy to see which scene you are in so you make some mistakes editing.


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> Thanks for the insight @laxu
> I was definitely curious how it works through a loop and into a real cab and it sounds like it works just fine that way.
> 
> So there have been some mixed reports on CPU with multiple amps and delays. Can you build a preset with:
> 
> Wah (can it do wah?)
> Two flangers
> Chorus
> Two or three delays
> Boost
> 3 amps (ideally plexi, Dual Rec, VH4 each going to a separate output)
> I’m just wondering if that’ll all fit into a preset without hitting a CPU cap.



I quickly built the following rows:

1: In 1 -> Wah - TS808 - Flanger - Plexi - Cab -> Row 3
2: Split from row 1 -> Flanger 2 - Dual Rec - Cab -> Back to Row 1
3: Row 1 -> Chorus - VH4 - Cab -> Out 1/2
4: Split from row 3 -> 3 x delay blocks -> Back to Row 3

This would be a bit crap preset but I could fit all the blocks in if I made the delays mono. Stereo delays were not possible in this setup.

However! If I replace the VH4 with the Diezel Herbert _capture_ from the factory captures, then I can fit in 3 stereo delays because the amp block is the most demanding one while the capture block takes less DSP. I think NeuralDSP have said something about optimizing delay/reverb CPU usage in a future update.


----------



## Emperoff

Deadpool_25 said:


> Thanks for the insight @laxu
> I was definitely curious how it works through a loop and into a real cab and it sounds like it works just fine that way.
> 
> So there have been some mixed reports on CPU with multiple amps and delays. Can you build a preset with:
> 
> Wah (can it do wah?)
> Two flangers
> Chorus
> Two or three delays
> Boost
> 3 amps (ideally plexi, Dual Rec, VH4 each going to a separate output)
> I’m just wondering if that’ll all fit into a preset without hitting a CPU cap.



I wouldn't expect any less from the most powerful floor processor in the market!



laxu said:


> No, you can just swipe up from the bottom of the screen to get the Gig View:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This can be set to show presets, scenes or stomps and how they map to the switches, what is active and what their names are. For gigging this view is probably what you will be using all the time. Massively easier to see than Home view on FM3.
> 
> For editing you can see the selected scene in the block editor and as a small letter in the corner. I would prefer to see the scene name here because now I feel it's often not that easy to see which scene you are in so you make some mistakes editing.



The thing looks neat, I give them that.


----------



## laxu

This is what we have come to: I was sitting on the toilet, browsing the NeuralDSP cloud app and picking which captures to download like "ooh, would love to try that amp!" There's quite a lot already but the app is at MVP level so search and curation is pretty much nonexistent.

Overall I think NeuralDSP was too optimistic with their launch and could have benefited from launching the QC next fall. Would have given them more time to get the app and features of the unit to match the marketing. Maybe they have had business decisions cause their current launch windows.


----------



## Deadpool_25

laxu said:


> I quickly built the following rows:
> 
> 1: In 1 -> Wah - TS808 - Flanger - Plexi - Cab -> Row 3
> 2: Split from row 1 -> Flanger 2 - Dual Rec - Cab -> Back to Row 1
> 3: Row 1 -> Chorus - VH4 - Cab -> Out 1/2
> 4: Split from row 3 -> 3 x delay blocks -> Back to Row 3
> 
> This would be a bit crap preset but I could fit all the blocks in if I made the delays mono. Stereo delays were not possible in this setup.
> 
> However! If I replace the VH4 with the Diezel Herbert _capture_ from the factory captures, then I can fit in 3 stereo delays because the amp block is the most demanding one while the capture block takes less DSP. I think NeuralDSP have said something about optimizing delay/reverb CPU usage in a future update.



That’s definitely a feather in its cap imo. The ability to run dual or even triple amp setups is pretty cool. The FM3 can only run one and there’s no way around that. The AxeFX III is more powerful overall but even it won’t run three. Not that many people need or want to run multiple amps but it’s still kinda cool.

I’m this specific case I was thinking about Adam Jones’ rig. Basically:

Micro boost > volume > delay1 > delay2 > chorus > flanger > EQ > wah > splitter to the front of the three amps (Superbass/Dual Rec/VH4 in triple mono)


----------



## laxu

Deadpool_25 said:


> That’s definitely a feather in its cap imo. The ability to run dual or even triple amp setups is pretty cool. The FM3 can only run one and there’s no way around that. The AxeFX III is more powerful overall but even it won’t run three. Not that many people need or want to run multiple amps but it’s still kinda cool.
> 
> I’m this specific case I was thinking about Adam Jones’ rig. Basically:
> 
> Micro boost > volume > delay1 > delay2 > chorus > flanger > EQ > wah > splitter to the front of the three amps (Superbass/Dual Rec/VH4 in triple mono)



I just tried 3 amps yesterday because I had setup a preset like that, somewhat unintentionally. It was Soldano SLO + Fryette Sig:X (capture) + Fender Deluxe Reverb all playing together. It sounded ridiculously massive but honestly would not be something I would use for anything but a short passage. Too much of a good thing. Even 2 amps at the same time is hard to setup so that it actually sounds better than just one amp.

If you wanted you could even run 4 amps at the same time on the QC but would not have much room left for effects. The amp model seems to be the most CPU intensive block followed by the reverbs. Replacing amps with captures gives you a good amount more DSP headroom.


----------



## narad

laxu said:


> I just tried 3 amps yesterday because I had setup a preset like that, somewhat unintentionally. It was Soldano SLO + Fryette Sig:X (capture) + Fender Deluxe Reverb all playing together. It sounded ridiculously massive but honestly would not be something I would use for anything but a short passage. Too much of a good thing. Even 2 amps at the same time is hard to setup so that it actually sounds better than just one amp.
> 
> If you wanted you could even run 4 amps at the same time on the QC but would not have much room left for effects. The amp model seems to be the most CPU intensive block followed by the reverbs. Replacing amps with captures gives you a good amount more DSP headroom.



Set up the model the way you want it, capture it, boom, extra DSP.


----------



## laxu

narad said:


> Set up the model the way you want it, capture it, boom, extra DSP.



I don't think you can do that without having a second QC for capturing. Would be a neat trick to be able to do self-captures tho!


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> I don't think you can do that without having a second QC for capturing. Would be a neat trick to be able to do self-captures tho!


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Thanks a lot for taking the time to write all this @laxu. If you don't have a gear related YT channel, I think you should start one


----------



## laxu

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Thanks a lot for taking the time to write all this @laxu. If you don't have a gear related YT channel, I think you should start one



I think the problem with that would be all the time it takes to edit videos and I would run out of gear to demo pretty quickly. Plus I don't consider myself that great as a player so coming up with new riffs to demo stuff would be its own challenge. So for me it's easier to stick to the written word.


----------



## AltecGreen

sleewell said:


> has anyone heard when these will be in stock?




People are saying on TGP that Anderton's has stock and had 97 unsold units as of last night. Might be worth a shot if you want one now.


----------



## cardinal

Any one using this, bypassing any cab sims and going to real cabs? 

(It seems I have one of these on the way...)


----------



## ZERO1

So I just ordered one from sweetwater. How long do you guys think the wait will be?


----------



## laxu

cardinal said:


> Any one using this, bypassing any cab sims and going to real cabs?
> 
> (It seems I have one of these on the way...)



Works fine through a Fryette PS-100.


----------



## MetalDaze

I’m using mine through a Fryette Classic XXX.


----------



## Elric

Mine is pretty epic in 4CM with my SLO-30 and 212. I have not run it through any of my other power amps/speakers but can confidently say legit tones can be had in the power amp+cab config. 

Some models/caps/etc will work better than others with various amps and cabs, just like any other modeler, as you might guess; but there is enough content there already that I can't imagine someone not being able to get something satisfying in most genres.


----------



## FearComplex

Has there been a price increase or a Thomann error? Now listed at €1850


----------



## laxu

FearComplex said:


> Has there been a price increase or a Thomann error? Now listed at €1850



Seems to be across Europe. Finnish retailer Musamaailma also increased the price to that. I wonder what's going on there, are they in such short supply, has some component become exponentially more expensive that they need to raise the price or what? That's a big price increase for a brand new product.

Personally I would not buy the QC at that price. I felt the 1600 euros was in line for a product that is modern and powerful but is going to need some software growth.


----------



## budda

1600/$2000CAD is a lot for a unit that still doesnt have all it's at-launch features .


----------



## Emperoff

200€ price increase? Just what it needed


----------



## budda

Mourguitars said:


> Gonna test out the Friedmans this weekend...ill be on the last firmware before Cygnus...time to go thru my IR's
> 
> Mike





Emperoff said:


> 200€ price increase? Just what it needed



Maybe Neural saw all the preorder units selling for more than new and said "hold up"


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Maybe Neural saw all the preorder units selling for more than new and said "hold up"



People are just stupid. I see KSR stuff priced higher than new all the time on reverb because they sell their stuff on small batches. Can't people just _wait_?


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> People are just stupid. I see KSR stuff priced higher than new all the time on reverb because they sell their stuff on small batches. Can't people just _wait_?



I think we both know the answer to that question .


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> People are just stupid. I see KSR stuff priced higher than new all the time on reverb because they sell their stuff on small batches. Can't people just _wait_?



Apparently not. Whether it's Playstation 5s, graphics cards or guitar gear, there's always some people with more money than sense who want it right now.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Emperoff said:


> People are just stupid. I see KSR stuff priced higher than new all the time on reverb because they sell their stuff on small batches. Can't people just _wait_?



Well, maybe people just don’t want to wait?

Paying a couple hundred € for the convenience of having it immediately sounds reasonable to me. I hate preorders. I don’t want to sign up for potentially untested products. Don’t like they delays and uncertainty and expectations etc. So personally I’d be fine with paying more to immediately have a known item.


----------



## budda

Flappydoodle said:


> Well, maybe people just don’t want to wait?
> 
> Paying a couple hundred € for the convenience of having it immediately sounds reasonable to me. I hate preorders. I don’t want to sign up for potentially untested products. Don’t like they delays and uncertainty and expectations etc. So personally I’d be fine with paying more to immediately have a known item.



The known item with now-known issues? Without the warranty (no one has said its transferable)?


----------



## Emperoff

Flappydoodle said:


> Well, maybe people just don’t want to wait?
> 
> Paying a couple hundred € for the convenience of having it immediately sounds reasonable to me. I hate preorders. I don’t want to sign up for potentially untested products. Don’t like they delays and uncertainty and expectations etc. So personally I’d be fine with paying more to immediately have a known item.


And that’s why we have plenty of people complaining about used prices through the roof lately.


----------



## Flappydoodle

budda said:


> The known item with now-known issues? Without the warranty (no one has said its transferable)?



Yes and no. Since there still isn't a steady, reliable supply, maybe people just don't want to join a queue of unknown length.

I'm not buying a QC, new or used. But I can see the attraction of skipping the queues and uncertainty.



Emperoff said:


> And that’s why we have plenty of people complaining about used prices through the roof lately.



That would only apply to products which are in short supply new, no?


----------



## laxu

In other news, you can now find my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead and Victory VC35 captures under the same username on the NeuralDSP mobile app.


----------



## Elric

laxu said:


> In other news, you can now find my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead and Victory VC35 captures under the same username on the NeuralDSP mobile app.


Nice! Thanks @laxu


----------



## ZERO1

I guess the price increase is official. https://neuraldsp.com/news/quad-cortex-msrp-increase


----------



## laxu

ZERO1 said:


> I guess the price increase is official. https://neuraldsp.com/news/quad-cortex-msrp-increase



That's too bad. I hope the prices go back down as things stabilize.

I've decided to sell mine. I think it's a good unit but still needs some time to mature so I will wait and see what the situation is in the future.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> That's too bad. I hope the prices go back down as things stabilize.



Too bad that never ever happens.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> Too bad that never ever happens.



Yeah, if they keep selling at the higher price then it's here to stay. Personally I would not have bought the QC in its launch condition for the current 1849 euro price but was ok with 1640 as it was fairly close to Helix Floor and Kemper Stage. Maybe if the QC realizes all its potential in a year or two that price is worth it.

I decided that I want to see what the competition brings to market (if anything) in that time frame and then re-evaluate. Still looking forward to for example the BluGuitar Amp X.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Honestly I hope this doesn't affect digital gear across the board. Have a feeling it will though.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Honestly I hope this doesn't affect digital gear across the board. Have a feeling it will though.



I'd say that even if it doesn't, manufacturers could jump ship and pretend it does for more profit. It happens with computer parts all the time.


----------



## laxu

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Honestly I hope this doesn't affect digital gear across the board. Have a feeling it will though.



It already has. Fractal prices went up by $100 already before the QC did, Line6 so far is the same price but I would expect shipping costs might drive their prices up too and for any future flagship device to be more expensive too.


----------



## budda

How can you say something is a fair buy at 1600 when you're selling it because it's an unfinished product  I dont follow.


----------



## 4Eyes

price increase may be related to microchip shortage IMO. car manufacturers are already decreasing their production numbers because of lack of spare parts. probably higher demand across many industries and lack of ability of micro chip producers to keep up with the demand are driving prices up. I can imagine that companies delivering DSP chips to music industry are not having those companies on their top priority list for their production lines.

I'm just thinking out light, but if that already happened to other companies, then it might be it.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> How can you say something is a fair buy at 1600 when you're selling it because it's an unfinished product  I dont follow.



If this was my only modeler I would have kept it and used it just fine. But I have a Helix Floor which does a better job as a pedalboard for my real amps and I have a Fractal FM3 which does a better job as the type of device that satisfies the tinkerer in me and works as a desktop and travel unit. QC slotted kind of between the two where it was good at all of these things but did not excel except in UI, form factor and captures.

I felt that for a new product with software growing pains it was an acceptable price to get to try the things it does right. If it was 1849 from the start I might have balked at the price. The difference is not much but enough to make me consider more carefully. Of course I am talking about a situation where I am not losing money trying it. I could have sent it back to Thomann but selling it locally was easier.

I did not make this decision lightly, I had like 1 day left to return it so I did test it down to the wire. I could see myself buying another in a year or two depending on how it shapes up and if there is anything else interesting on the market by that time. I'll definitely be following its development.


----------



## budda

So without being direct, the QC is in fact in 3rd place among the 3 from your experience.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> So without being direct, the QC is in fact in 3rd place among the 3 from your experience.



I don't know why folks have such a boner for rating these things in some kind of order.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know why folks have such a boner for rating these things in some kind of order.



It's moreso everyone claimed the qc was going to be top dog, it clearly isnt, and im wondering if people will actually admit it yet. .


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> It's moreso everyone claimed the qc was going to be top dog, it clearly isnt, and im wondering if people will actually admit it yet. .



It's all subjective. I'm sure it is the "top dog" for some folks and "bottom dog(?)" for others.


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> Yeah, if they keep selling at the higher price then it's here to stay. Personally I would not have bought the QC in its launch condition for the current 1849 euro price but was ok with 1640 as it was fairly close to Helix Floor and Kemper Stage. Maybe if the QC realizes all its potential in a year or two that price is worth it.
> 
> I decided that I want to see what the competition brings to market (if anything) in that time frame and then re-evaluate. Still looking forward to for example the BluGuitar Amp X.


As much as the Amp X interests me, I’m less enthusiastic about it after Blug said that models will be paid-for DLC. That’s just a weird decision, IMO, when your competition is providing free updates. Maybe if the included models cover enough ground, I won’t mind as much, but I am concerned that the best content will be paywalled.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> So without being direct, the QC is in fact in 3rd place among the 3 from your experience.



Depends on how you look at it and where you put value. 

QC is by far my favorite hardware unit and the best hardware user experience out of the three, with FM3 as the last in that category.
FM3 is my favorite unit if you use the computer editor. No option for that on the QC yet.
Helix and FM3 are better for effects. Variety and soundwise. Some QC effects are on par, others are worse.
Amp modeling can be varied. QC is on par with FM3 or not as good depending on the amp model, e.g JTM45 was pretty identical in both but Soldano was worse than either FM3 or Helix. FM3 is the undisputed king with Cygnus update, variety of amp models and their tweakability. It's the one unit that can go beyond what the real amp does and lets you play amp designer.
QC captures are consistently good to me with very few 3rd party ones that have had issues. It's a lot of fun to try some rare gear this way.
As an overall unit the Helix Floor is actually my favorite. It's easier to use than FM3 while having a mature feature set. My biggest complaint about it is it's big as a physical device so it's not nice to use as a desktop or travel unit. But then again it doesn't need any extras for switching etc.
If you want the exact sound of your favorite tube amps, QC with captures all the way. If you want one unit that is easy to use and does pretty much all you need, Helix. If you want the best amp modeling or most tweakable stuff then Axe-Fx 3 or FM3. 

That's why it's not so easy to say that "this is the best modeler ever" because there's pros and cons to all of them.


----------



## Randy

First I've seen the Amp X. I like what I've heard out of their other stuff, but the form factor looks behind the times and I'm not liking the marketing fluff. I hate smoke and mirrors, slight of hand BS explaining core functionality of a device.


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> As much as the Amp X interests me, I’m less enthusiastic about it after Blug said that models will be paid-for DLC. That’s just a weird decision, IMO, when your competition is providing free updates. Maybe if the included models cover enough ground, I won’t mind as much, but I am concerned that the best content will be paywalled.



Even if it includes just the sounds from the Mercury and Iridium it will probably do about 90% of the tones you'd ever want. If they can have an authentic Vox or Matchless type tone, maybe something Dumbleish in there then that's that last 10%.

The "amp DLC" seemed to be kind of a system providing kickbacks to the designers of the amp and would probably mean "hey, if you help us add your amp to our unit then you will get X % from the sales of that model". Which to me sounds fair even if as the end user it means I have to pay for them. With the stock Mercury/Iridium models I would not bother buying any Marshall based amp so having an authentic Friedman is "I don't give a damn" territory because I could just dial those sounds with the stock stuff.

I'm interested in how it plays out for the QC too. The NeuralDSP Soldano SLO plugin sounds markedly better to me than the older SLO model (no depth knob etc) offered in the QC. So when they add plugin support it'll be an interesting situation when you have that amp model already but have a better version of it as a plugin. I could use other people's captures of SLO-30/100 as those sounded just great to me but it's still nice to have that full adjustability.

To me the number of amp models is not a great metric of how versatile it is. When I sold my Axe-Fx 2, I first went to the Yamaha THR100HD which has 4 amp models and a crappy solid-state clean. Yet that could still cover most tones I needed.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> First I've seen the Amp X. I like what I've heard out of their other stuff, but the form factor looks behind the times and I'm not liking the marketing fluff. I hate smoke and mirrors, slight of hand BS explaining core functionality of a device.



It comes from a different approach. It's a live tool first, studio tool second. So being fast to use on stage is more important. I'm not totally sold on its design either but can see that it would be very quick to do some little tweaks to your tones and fx, which I feel are kind of the failing of current modelers where you go menu diving pretty quickly.

I will reserve judgement until the product is out. There's very little info about it other than the promo website.


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> The "amp DLC" seemed to be kind of a system providing kickbacks to the designers of the amp and would probably mean "hey, if you help us add your amp to our unit then you will get X % from the sales of that model".



If it does work that way, I’d be more ok with it. I hadn’t thought about it that way, but it’s a good point.


----------



## budda

I cant cut out the parts i want to quote on my phone easily.

But


> Amp modeling can be varied. QC is on par with FM3 or not as good depending on the amp model...


 if one unit does 100% and the other unit does 70%, just say the qc's modelling isn't as good .

I'd be saying the same thing if it was helix and not fm3 in the quote.

The sugarcoating is what bugs me, I think.


----------



## Kyle Jordan

First I've ever heard of the Amp X. Looks really cool. I hope it delivers.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> I cant cut out the parts i want to quote on my phone easily.
> 
> But if one unit does 100% and the other unit does 70%, just say the qc's modelling isn't as good .
> 
> I'd be saying the same thing if it was helix and not fm3 in the quote.
> 
> The sugarcoating is what bugs me, I think.



It's not sugarcoating when it's going to vary based on amp model. Plus there's always going to be a lot of subjective preference for this. I don't like all Fractal models either (especially overdrive pedal models which I feel Helix does better) but can't say whether it would mean not liking the real thing too as I haven't tried even half the models on offer. Fractal has also added some models purely based on schematics rather than measuring every real amp unless they have changed this at some point.

But sure, if you want to talk in absolutes then yeah, the QC amp modeling is not as good as Fractal.

It's hard to say why some of the amp models on QC are not as good. To me the Soldano SLO Lead was the one that worked the worst for some reason. It was always too gainy, it didn't have that openness to its midrange the captures or FM3 model had. It's been more than a decade since I've played a real SLO so I can't really say how it fares against the real thing. It could possibly be that it is accurate to their SLO but that particular example is just not very good.

The QC captures however are just as good as anything I have gotten out of modelers so you could just use those and forget the amp modeling even exists, turning the unit into a modern Kemper.


----------



## Jeff

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know why folks have such a boner for rating these things in some kind of order.



Probably because the QC was so unbelievably hyped up for ages, both by the company itself and YouTubers, that anything short of an amazing unit deserves to be criticized. For $1600, this thing is a joke.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jeff said:


> Probably because the QC was so unbelievably hyped up for ages, both by the company itself and YouTubers, that anything short of an amazing unit deserves to be criticized. For $1600, this thing is a joke.



From what I can tell this thing is the Cyberpunk 2077 of guitar gear.

Hyped beyond hell. Tons of delays. Finally releases and ends up being a perfectly serviceable product and not the game-changer that was promised. Needs tons of patches to get the content that was promised.

Only thing that's missing is the decade-long dev cycle and the abysmal launch bugs (the QC did have some lemons from what I can tell, but not so bad it had to be pulled from a storefront.  )


----------



## RevDrucifer

I’d be pissed if I spent $1600 and got the QC in it’s current state. After all those delays? There’s a line between early-adopter and beta tester and I think NDSP and their customers are taking some liberties with those terms because this thing is still in beta. $1800+?!? Fuuuuuuck that.

While TGP is the only place I read about the thing, I don’t think I’m wrong when I say that it appears half or more users there are experiencing the noise issue from the PSU....or not having something plugged into the XLR’s, whatever the issue actually is. The guys who are content keeping shit plugged into it to keep noise at bay still have an issue, whether or not they mind being a beta tester. 

How extensive is the QC on the QC? 

My knee-jerk reaction was that they knew about the issue but it was already too late to delay shipping, again. Not only do they have to find one that’ll work, they’ve got to make sure the company has enough in stock and can keep them coming for years to come. That shit takes time and research that should have been done last year. 

This thing has certainly had more apologists than any other piece of gear I’ve ever seen and while part of me says “Oh that’s cool man, people are just being more optimistic!”, my gut is tells me otherwise. I could see if NDSP had a long history of putting out killer products, absolutely, but that’s not the case and this thing is being floated on _promises_ right now by someone whose only option is to play the people pleaser or else all of this falls to shit. 

They aren’t even discussing adding the advertised features in the update about updates anymore. No mention of when plug-ins will be ported into it because there’s surely a fucking mountain of sticky notes with bugs on it they’re trying to get ahead of just so they can get to the advertised stuff....while sourcing an entirely new PSU. It’s been out for 2.5 months and despite having the most elegant updating capabilities in the world, they still haven’t managed to stick auto-engage in the thing. 

I was just trying to think of a time I’ve ever talked shit about a piece of gear before and I’m drawing a blank. This is definitely a new one for me and while I normally have a disdain for this kind of pettiness, this is like my Jersey Shore for now and I’m allowing myself this one.


----------



## RevDrucifer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> From what I can tell this thing is the Cyberpunk 2077 of guitar gear.
> 
> Hyped beyond hell. Tons of delays. Finally releases and ends up being a perfectly serviceable product and not the game-changer that was promised. Needs tons of patches to get the content that was promised.
> 
> Only thing that's missing is the decade-long dev cycle and the abysmal launch bugs (the QC did have some lemons from what I can tell, but not so bad it had to be pulled from a storefront.  )



Well, they’ve gotta pull the PSU’s from the storefront so they can hopefully find a not-shitty version of something generally known for being shitty. 

Oops, my bad; elegant. They need to source a new eleganter PSU to replace the already-elegant PSU it was supplied with.


----------



## laxu

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> From what I can tell this thing is the Cyberpunk 2077 of guitar gear.
> 
> Hyped beyond hell. Tons of delays. Finally releases and ends up being a perfectly serviceable product and not the game-changer that was promised. Needs tons of patches to get the content that was promised.
> 
> Only thing that's missing is the decade-long dev cycle and the abysmal launch bugs (the QC did have some lemons from what I can tell, but not so bad it had to be pulled from a storefront.  )



People forget now that the Line6 and Fractal devices have been out for years that they also launched with all kinds of problems. It took months for Fractal to get the FM3 to shape without USB issues and the latest firmwares still have plenty of bugs. By comparison I have felt that QC hasn't had any major ones except that power supply noise issue some were experiencing. I never ran into it myself so it might not be a problem with the way electricity is in Finland.

Making new hardware and software is not easy. Making a device that surpasses devices with a decade or more of incremental development behind them is even harder. NeuralDSP overestimated how fast they can get it out. If they had taken one more year to develop it and released it this fall like the original plan was for last year, it would have been better received and in a more ready condition. So far they have been pretty quick at pushing out small improvements, 2 updates within a month.

I warned people well before release that QC would not be a game changer. That's a very difficult thing to be when digital modeling is so good already. But the QC does raise the stakes in several areas: Hardware design, usability and capturing/profiling. Having had the QC for almost a month, as a device I felt it was the best of the bunch. It looked good, felt good and was nice to use. It was purely on the software side where it needs more work.


----------



## MetalDaze

I’ve been bit by buying a product only to have it go on sale, so bring on the price increases!

However, it does impact my plan to get another so I can claim to have an Octo Cortex


----------



## budda

Fm3 had the headphone jack debacle. The QC seems far worse off .

What plenty of bugs does the fm3 have now? Are you talking about the beta release, which is where users are meant to find bugs (after the in-house testing)? This forum has a few fm3 owners, and bad news travels fast. Where's the barrage of comments I missed for official fw releases?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> Fm3 had the headphone jack debacle. The QC seems far worse off .
> 
> What plenty of bugs does the fm3 have now? Are you talking about the beta release, which is where users are meant to find bugs (after the in-house testing)? This forum has a few fm3 owners, and bad news travels fast. Where's the barrage of comments I missed for official fw releases?



I'm also trying to remember Helix issues/bugs. I actually remember a lot of hate for the Helix before it released (calling the QoL features a gimmick, peoople being skeptical about free amps/effects in future patches), but then got more positive reception upon release.


----------



## ZERO1

on sweetwater it just went it up 250 dollars. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...e-digital-effects-modeler-profiler-floorboard


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Fm3 had the headphone jack debacle. The QC seems far worse off .
> 
> What plenty of bugs does the fm3 have now? Are you talking about the beta release, which is where users are meant to find bugs (after the in-house testing)? This forum has a few fm3 owners, and bad news travels fast. Where's the barrage of comments I missed for official fw releases?



I had issues with volume controls not working already on 3.02 and have different issues with those on 4.00 betas. Seen footswitch displays not work too and that seems to be fairly reported at least for betas (which to be fair are betas like you said). I have had the FM3 restart itself all of a sudden. Also it was recently discovered that FM3 handles 5V MIDI devices incorrectly, feeding too much voltage into them because it doesn't have a resistor to limit it. The solution is to make an adapter cable with a resistor wired in.

Most people won't encounter any of these. The major ones for the FM3 were the headphone issue and the USB issues.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm also trying to remember Helix issues/bugs. I actually remember a lot of hate for the Helix before it released (calling the QoL features a gimmick, peoople being skeptical about free amps/effects in future patches), but then got more positive reception upon release.



I avoided the Helix for a long time because my opinion of Line6 was that they release stuff that doesn't sound that good and will then replace it within 1-2 years with a new and improved model. I'm happy they no longer do.


----------



## trem licking

They definitely should've waited longer before they announced this. Possibly when it was finished/actually had some stock ready... Yeesh


----------



## budda

So to be clear, the QC has issues which most users are noticing, and the fm3 has a short list that requires digging just to locate?


----------



## Randy

budda said:


> So to be clear, the QC has issues which most users are noticing, and the fm3 has a short list that requires digging just to locate?



Have had my FM3 since October and I haven't had a single bug I've encountered, sans one in a beta I went looking for because I read about it in the release thread. To say the QC and FM3 bugs are at all comparable is reaching.

Also 4 out of 5 stars on that Sweetwater page is quite telling.


----------



## cwhitey2

I haven't had 1 issue in the 8 months I have owned my FM3. All of their 'final' software releases have been great.

Someday down the road I get a QC, but it will be several years before that happens. I'm currently satisfied with the FM3.


----------



## olejason

The old advice to avoid being an early adopter of a V1 product seems to be holding true. Yikes. Hope they can get this stuff sorted out.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> So to be clear, the QC has issues which most users are noticing, and the fm3 has a short list that requires digging just to locate?



The FM3 is a few years old and the QC is barely in the hands of end users. Compare FM3 upon release vs QC upon release rather than the current situation. The point is most of the modelers have some issues when they are released that get fixed along the line.


----------



## Elric

I guess what we could do is have the folks who think the product is worthwhile in its current state, those folks could buy it and/or keep it. And those folks who do not think it is worthwhile could continue not buying it or return/sell it as appropriate.

I basically just see a bunch of Fractal fans here ripping on it and trying to "rank" stuff but honestly LaXu gave a really fair breakdown. The various digital solutions have their strengths and weaknesses and the QC is an immature product that has some pretty big downsides but there is enough stuff that is right with it that I can see it being a keeper or even the preferred platform for some folks.

F.ex: If you are in the market for a capturing device, personally, I would not even consider anything else; this thing is the future in that regard (IMHO) and it immediately brings enough value to merit its price. I have captured a sh*t-ton of tube/analog gear with this and a couple of the pieces by themselves cost more than the QC does alone, so the thing pays for itself already in that sense. Couple the capture accuracy with the form factor and it is pretty amazing out of the gate.

If that doesn't do it for you, by all means; pass. The other stuff will likely get there but its not there yet.

Most of you guys talking sh*t clearly have an Axe to grind (so to speak). As an owner of all the major digital; stuff, LaXu's evaluation is completely on point. The value each platform presents is going to depend on your use case, preferences, etc. And sure, the QC is probably not the best option for most people picking up their first digital unit, unless you really love captures or are willing to stick it out for ease of use/form factor.

I think the Neural hardware has a bright future.


----------



## cardinal

Wait, what is the noise issue?

Im seriously close to buying one of these, particularly for its capture abilities. I actually thought I'd bought one a week or so ago but the seller said Just Kidding!


----------



## Jeff

laxu said:


> The FM3 is a few years old and the QC is barely in the hands of end users. Compare FM3 upon release vs QC upon release rather than the current situation. The point is most of the modelers have some issues when they are released that get fixed along the line.



The FM3 is a little over a year old, and had A. The headphone jack issue that was remedied after the first wave, and B. A couple firmware related issues fixed in a couple months, but nothing that were show-stoppers. The issues with the QC are FAR bigger, on a much more expensive piece of gear.

I’m not a FAS fanboy either. I had one, and sold it awhile ago.


----------



## sleewell

line 6 has added a ton of amps and effects plus it now sounds way better than when was released. 

i'll def give them a few months/years to sort things out.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> The FM3 is a few years old and the QC is barely in the hands of end users. Compare FM3 upon release vs QC upon release rather than the current situation. The point is most of the modelers have some issues when they are released that get fixed along the line.



This is exactly what Im trying to see.

What I am seeing is an unfinished, overhyped product not meeting expectations that was supposed to overtake the current options based on various specs.

"Not a mature product" - @Elric said that - so why would you not buy a more robust product from the other offerings?

You guys can call me a fanboy but im gonna recommend a stomp over an fm3 if the fm3 is the wrong choice . I dont have a stake in FAS, they just do a lot of things right.

Edit: Im just waiting to see if the qc hype squad can admit that it falls very short of what was promised to be running at launch. So far, they can't.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Im just waiting to see if the qc hype squad can admit that it falls very short of what was promised to be running at launch. So far, they can't.



They won't, since the capture function seems to work pretty well which makes it the default excuse (despite the 850$ upcharge).


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> They won't, since the capture function seems to work pretty well which makes it the default excuse (despite the 850$ upcharge).



Doesn't the kemper floor exist?


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Doesn't the kemper floor exist?



Yes, but it doesn't seem to get much love and the QC has both captures and modelling. Honestly I'd rather buy the QC than the Kemper floor if no strange issues are present. And I'm not even mentioning the user interface...


----------



## mikah912

Elric said:


> I guess what we could do is have the folks who think the product is worthwhile in its current state, those folks could buy it and/or keep it. And those folks who do not think it is worthwhile could continue not buying it or return/sell it as appropriate.
> 
> I basically just see a bunch of Fractal fans here ripping on it and trying to "rank" stuff but honestly LaXu gave a really fair breakdown. The various digital solutions have their strengths and weaknesses and the QC is an immature product that has some pretty big downsides but there is enough stuff that is right with it that I can see it being a keeper or even the preferred platform for some folks.
> 
> F.ex: If you are in the market for a capturing device, personally, I would not even consider anything else; this thing is the future in that regard (IMHO) and it immediately brings enough value to merit its price. I have captured a sh*t-ton of tube/analog gear with this and a couple of the pieces by themselves cost more than the QC does alone, so the thing pays for itself already in that sense. Couple the capture accuracy with the form factor and it is pretty amazing out of the gate.
> 
> If that doesn't do it for you, by all means; pass. The other stuff will likely get there but its not there yet.
> 
> Most of you guys talking sh*t clearly have an Axe to grind (so to speak). As an owner of all the major digital; stuff, LaXu's evaluation is completely on point. The value each platform presents is going to depend on your use case, preferences, etc. And sure, the QC is probably not the best option for most people picking up their first digital unit, unless you really love captures or are willing to stick it out for ease of use/form factor.
> 
> I think the Neural hardware has a bright future.



I also believe there is a bright future ahead of these guys. That being said, I don't share your take on the QC being "it" for capturing devices. Not yet, anyway.

Kemper's mature ecosystem still gives it an edge to the Quad Cortex's rather chaotic one at present. You can get well-organized profile packs of the vast majority of amps out there. Sorting through them is a breeze with the Rig Manager because you can see detailed metadata for everything and get an idea of gain levels at a glance. Most importantly, every profile is instantly available for audition, so it's quite easy to rummage for what you want. You have 1,000 slots on the device and several times that in the Rig Manager.

On the Cortex app, on the other hand, you can get a handful of related captures from Tone Junkies, Neural and a few others. It's a stretch to call those "packs". You only have 256 slots, and you have to fill them up to audition. Also, there is no desktop manager to make it easy. There's very little metadata, and it's not consistently applied. Neither the UI nor most of the descriptions tell you _*what it actually is*_ that's being "captured". Most importantly, there is no marketplace, so the providers of content are handcuffed as to what they can do.

I think the Capture thing will be handcuffed as long as that chaotic randomness is present in the Cortex app. I know they've said they have plans to combat that, but I wonder how they'll retcon away all of the vaguely-described one-off stuff that's already been uploaded when they do.

Sure, the UI rocks otherwise, and it's a lot more compact. But on the other hand, it's harder to buy and is $150 more than a Stage new or $400-450 more than a gently used Stage on Reverb or elsewhere. 

Of course, if "capturing" or "profiling" only matters to you in terms of the gear you already own - and it's only amps, cabs and drive pedals - then, sure.....the QC might be the one to consider.


----------



## cardinal

budda said:


> Doesn't the kemper floor exist?



For some reason I really don't want a Kemper put would like to try the capture function with the QC. The Kemper seems somehow intimidating or foreign, but I've never actually used one.


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> This is exactly what Im trying to see.
> 
> What I am seeing is an unfinished, overhyped product not meeting expectations that was supposed to overtake the current options based on various specs.
> 
> "Not a mature product" - @Elric said that - so why would you not buy a more robust product from the other offerings?



What the unit was going to contain at release was pretty clearly laid out. They said what features would be there and what would not be. I bought mine with that knowledge, knowing I could return it if I don't like it.

As a hardware unit it's a lot better than the FM3. Smaller, more switching, more control knobs, more I/O, more DSP power, touchscreen, way better display. Lack of SPDIF is really my only criticism for that part. FM3 does have a better headphone amp though (mainly can push high impedance headphones to louder volume).

I would love to replace the FM3 with something that is easier to use without the computer with a similar feature set. But Helix does not work well as a desktop/travel unit and HX Stomp is too underpowered and has a tiny screen with few controls.

I would love to replace the Helix Floor with something smaller that works as good for fx/switching only. Unfortunately nobody makes that either. Might try to see if someone wants to trade my Helix Floor for a Helix Rack locally.

The QC software simply needs more time to mature before it works as a replacement for me and that's why I _am_ sticking to the Helix and FM3.


----------



## Elric

budda said:


> "Not a mature product" - @Elric said that - so why would you not buy a more robust product from the other offerings?



The PS5 is not a mature product, either, but it is not difficult for me to understand why someone might want one right now. Shrug.

This product, as is, is arguably the best profiler on the market, the build quality, UI, modeling, and form factor are superb. Other stuff needs some work. If I want capturing its this or the Kemper Stage.

I have an Axe III and took a QC over the FM3. I could flip my QC and have an FM3 by end of week with cash to spare. Some people did do that; others didn't. It probably depends on what they were hoping to get out of the device. I reserve the right to do it myself at some point if my needs/desires/whims change. 



> Edit: Im just waiting to see if the qc hype squad can admit that it falls very short of what was promised to be running at launch. So far, they can't.


That sounds like an argument inside your head rather than some actual event that is happening in the here and now. Not sure what has been said that is making you think people have not been realistic about where this thing has succeeded out of the gate and where it needs work. I am seeing _plenty_ of p*ssing and moaning; much of it from people who have not used the device... and while I'm sure some people have continued to hype it even where it has failed; I haven't seen anyone here claiming it was completely tapping all its potential at launch. I don't think Neural would even do this... Its in black and white what was omitted from the launch so this is all pretty much cut and dried.

But, just because that stuff is not there does not mean this is not a product to be excited about and that can be super useful and for some purposes is the best thing on the market right now.

TBH, it still strikes me as if you are unhappy because some people thought this thing was going to beat Fractal's amp modeling and you want someone to flat out say "Fractal is still the best". Like someone owes Fractal fans some schadenfreude or something.


----------



## laxu

mikah912 said:


> I also believe there is a bright future ahead of these guys. That being said, I don't share your take on the QC being "it" for capturing devices. Not yet, anyway.
> 
> Kemper's mature ecosystem still gives it an edge to the Quad Cortex's rather chaotic one at present. You can get well-organized profile packs of the vast majority of amps out there. Sorting through them is a breeze with the Rig Manager because you can see detailed metadata for everything and get an idea of gain levels at a glance. Most importantly, every profile is instantly available for audition, so it's quite easy to rummage for what you want. You have 1,000 slots on the device and several times that in the Rig Manager.
> 
> On the Cortex app, on the other hand, you can get a handful of related captures from Tone Junkies, Neural and a few others. It's a stretch to call those "packs". You only have 256 slots, and you have to fill them up to audition. Also, there is no desktop manager to make it easy. There's very little metadata, and it's not consistently applied. Neither the UI nor most of the descriptions tell you _*what it actually is*_ that's being "captured". Most importantly, there is no marketplace, so the providers of content are handcuffed as to what they can do.
> 
> I think the Capture thing will be handcuffed as long as that chaotic randomness is present in the Cortex app. I know they've said they have plans to combat that, but I wonder how they'll retcon away all of the vaguely-described one-off stuff that's already been uploaded when they do.



The QC can run 8 captures in a single preset on top of doing a better job with the captures than Kemper. That's a lot of pedals and amps you can cram in. NeuralDSP is also increasing the space for captures to 1024 user slots so that should be enough for anyone.

I have been actually sitting in a bus going through captures I want to download on the mobile app, coming home and firing up my QC to download them. I thought that was pretty cool. While I agree that the mobile app is a big mess, it has not yet reached the amount of content where it becomes too cumbersome to browse. It does desperately need curation features and it's again one of those "launched too early" things for NeuralDSP.

Part of the problem will always be end users. There is already the ability to fill in a description for each capture using the mobile app but very few do. It took me quite a while to write descriptions for every single capture I released but I did it. Most users if not forced to do it just won't bother.


----------



## budda

No one owes anyone anything . Like I said, I have no stake in fractal. No one is in my dm's threatening me over this. This is my "what'll they do next?" thing. Im bored enough to call people out is all.

As I said, it was overhyped and at $2k CAD it's not delivering the way they had pitched it. Hype squad got awfully quiet. I remarked at the utter lack of ngd's once they started shipping and getting into people's hands (and maybe even underfoot).

Anyone here besides rev lookes at the tgp thread(s) on the qc? Any other forums?

At the end of the day I plug into my rig and give 0 thoughts about this device once I do. But I do feel bad for the new owners who thought they were getting x and wound up with y. I guess it's good they can flip it - which seems to be the case.

Curious to see what all the owners think a year from now.


----------



## mikah912

laxu said:


> The QC can run 8 captures in a single preset on top of doing a better job with the captures than Kemper. That's a lot of pedals and amps you can cram in. NeuralDSP is also increasing the space for captures to 1024 user slots so that should be enough for anyone.
> 
> I have been actually sitting in a bus going through captures I want to download on the mobile app, coming home and firing up my QC to download them. I thought that was pretty cool. While I agree that the mobile app is a big mess, it has not yet reached the amount of content where it becomes too cumbersome to browse. It does desperately need curation features and it's again one of those "launched too early" things for NeuralDSP.
> 
> Part of the problem will always be end users. There is already the ability to fill in a description for each capture using the mobile app but very few do. It took me quite a while to write descriptions for every single capture I released but I did it. Most users if not forced to do it just won't bother.



Kemper's workflow is different, and I was never limited by "only" having one amp up at a time. I was more limited by the UI, which is a huge part of why I was interested in the QC in the first place.

Conversely, however, the UI of the Rig Manager is waaaaaaay beyond the Cortex app, as it compels users to fill in more metadata because A) so much of it is exposed and B) Commercial guys are all over it giving away free, easy-to-audition rig packs. 

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but I really do think the challenge of turning that Cloud experience into something elegant and organized becomes all the harder each day they let people keep uploading whatever, with no best practices to follow. They COULD - in the meantime - dump a lot of their extensive in-house captures featuring well-done metadata....but apparently the "minimum viable product" app can't support that either, at present. 

Matias Kupiainen told me elsewhere that he was waiting for the app to "catch up" before he could add new stuff, but he ended up erasing that comment shortly thereafter.


----------



## MetalDaze

cardinal said:


> Wait, what is the noise issue?
> 
> Im seriously close to buying one of these, particularly for its capture abilities. I actually thought I'd bought one a week or so ago but the seller said Just Kidding!



No idea. I haven’t experienced it. 

I will say the @BadSeed Badlander capture is great. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## RevDrucifer

I’m not too proud to admit that I view the QC as a guilty pleasure at this point. My wife watches The Circle on Netflix and I read QC threads. 

I think the reaction the QC is getting now is the result of the year and a half of hype around it, whether it were brought on by NDSP’s marketing or the QCanons. (Of which I do not believe Laxu and Elric are a part of).

That TGP thread can sum all of that up and you can pretty much pick any point between pages 25-600 to find out why.

I can’t speak for everyone, but the relationship between NDSP and their customers is starting to look more and more like an abusive relationship every day to me. Lots of broken promise and things not living up to their potential while the other side is saying “But they really care, they’re going to live up to all their promises. It’s ok that I have to use my QC in a way I shouldn’t have to so it stops buzzing so much, they’re going to give us auto-engage soon!”

In that sense, the same way that you’d tell your bro who is dating a pyshcobitch, “Bro, that chick’s no good for you.”, I can see how/why people feel the need to speak against NDSP. My knee-jerk reaction is to do so, but I try to restrain myself to a slight degree as participating in debates isn’t my favorite pastime, I just enjoy reading them.

IMO, NDSP threw QC owners a couple crumbs worth of updates after releasing a product that should still be in beta, 3 months after it’s been out. It’s perplexing to me that people are content with that and I think at this point, a year from now we’ll still be seeing posts saying “It’s ok, it’s a new product with growing pains. NDSP will pull through!” There are enough QC owners questioning it themselves that it’s not just the Fractal fanboy in me thinking that.

Maybe it’s all just growing pains for a company’s first physical launch; maybe for future releases they’ll learn to manage expectations better and maybe go for a underpromise, over deliver model instead of what this was.
They’ve got a lot of catching up to do while still going through the growing pains and I don’t predict that thing will be running at it’s advertised potential until at least 2022.

Edit- The last post I read on TGP is a perfect example of what I’m talking about; dude gives a rundown of all the promises NDSP hasn’t met in the way of delivering a fully realized product and why he has his doubts, the reply he gets back is “Yeah but NDSP threw us some crumbs and they promise to throw us some more.”

This is all riding on promises being made by a company who has not had a good track record of delivering on promises.


----------



## laxu

The thing I would say NeuralDSP is most guilty of is overestimating how quickly they can put things out, starting from their first opening of preorders in early 2020.

What I am seeing is pretty normal velocity for a company that follows a typical software release procedure with internal and external testing phases, two week development sprints and so on. This means typically something like a month or two for most features. We as end users also do not see any of the things that happen under the surface and there can be a significant amount of work done there that facilitates progress in other areas. To the end user that looks like nothing is happening.


----------



## Emperoff

I find this whole QC endeavour quite funny, as it encompasses plenty of what's wrong with current "hype generation".

The whole concept of it is like the Youtube thumbnail of every gear reviewer channel with the """IS THIS THE BEST GAMECHANGER FLOOR MODELLER EVER111!!!???""" caption. They are trying _so_ hard to be the Apple of the guitar community that they even use a Macbook to compare the size.

With marketing gems like:
_- "Biomimetic AI Technology"
- "The most powerful multi-FX (floor) processor in the market"
_
In the end, people just want shit that sounds great and does what's advertised without issues. The most aggravating issue is that Fractal FM3 costs 750$ less in the US and 500€ less in EU and its way ahead sonic-wise. Yeah, it doesn't have captures, and that is what most zealots are clinging to to keep hyping the thing, but it's still a far better deal when you consider all the power supply issues, etc.

Fractal also has a solid track record regarding updates that so far Neural is lacking. But hey, you have cloud captures to purchase and fill their pockets even more!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> I find this whole QC endeavour quite funny, as it encompasses plenty of what's wrong with current "hype generation".
> 
> The whole concept of it is like the Youtube thumbnail of every gear reviewer channel with the """IS THIS THE BEST GAMECHANGER FLOOR MODELLER EVER111!!!???""" caption. They are trying _so_ hard to be the Apple of the guitar community that they even use a Macbook to compare the size.
> 
> With marketing gems like:
> _- "Biomimetic AI Technology"
> - "The most powerful multi-FX (floor) processor in the market"
> _
> In the end, people just want shit that sounds great and does what's advertised without issues. The most aggravating issue is that Fractal FM3 costs 750$ less in the US and 500€ less in EU and its way ahead sonic-wise. Yeah, it doesn't have captures, and that is what most zealots are clinging to to keep hyping the thing, but it's still a far better deal when you consider all the power supply issues, etc.
> 
> Fractal also has a solid track record regarding updates that so far Neural is lacking. But hey, you have cloud captures to purchase and fill their pockets even more!



I think the Apple Hype aspect of this thing is what annoys me the most about it. If there's one thing I liked about guitar, is that it's such outdated technology that's behind the time with a lot of trends. 

Now we got instagram style influencers and Apple-like advertising/hype and now it's just... uuugh. it was bound to happen but it's still annoying.


----------



## technomancer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think the Apple Hype aspect of this thing is what annoys me the most about it. If there's one thing I liked about guitar, is that it's such outdated technology that's behind the time with a lot of trends.
> 
> Now we got instagram style influencers and Apple-like advertising/hype and now it's just... uuugh. it was bound to happen but it's still annoying.



At least with Apple there's a well-realized product behind the hype...


----------



## SamSam

I've had the chance to rehearse a few times with the QC now.


Pros: Running dual guitar rigs and a bass rig in one box is cool.
Fairly easy to program. 
Sounds Good.
Captures are great.


Cons: Footswitches are too close together, I often touch two switches at once which will result in a missed change. My feet are not huge by any means (UK 10)
I wish the huge volume dial didn't exist. That's desktop design not floor pedal.
The fucking PSU. It should be an IEC kettle plug. Again desktop design.
Hopping from a scene change to my expression pedal. This needs to be automated sooner rather than later.


Overall the QC feels more like a large desktop Interface as opposed to a rugged floor unit. I am not much of a mover on stage but if I have to make several changes quickly (Rhythm - solo 1 w/ wah - rhythm - solo 2 - rhythm) the narrow switches are a pain in the arse. I've never had this issue with other units. Maybe with time I will get used to it. Maybe I'll just use my FM3 in future. I'm not sure yet.

My band like the tones and we all agree it sounds very good. It also means I can control the bass player's tones (he also sings) so that's a bonus. The on screen routing and set up is easy and changes can be made on the fly.

Overall my thoughts are still out on this. Firmware improvements will add quality of life features but not fix my main gripes with it. Amp sims on the FM3 and FX are definitely better. But the captures (there are some great ones on the app!) are a great feature and you can really pack out the grids with 3 rigs going with CPU to spare! I couldn't do this all with the FM3, but I could just tell the bass player to suck it up and all my issues would be resolved with the FM3


----------



## laxu

technomancer said:


> At least with Apple there's a well-realized product behind the hype...



I could write a book about the things Apple does wrong. I would not buy a Macbook Pro with my own money anymore and their iPad Pro is great hardware but the software cannot make full use of it. But that's not really something for this thread.


----------



## technomancer

laxu said:


> I could write a book about the things Apple does wrong. I would not buy a Macbook Pro with my own money anymore and their iPad Pro is great hardware but the software cannot make full use of it. But that's not really something for this thread.



From watching your posts I have faith that you could write a book on just about anything...

Apple have made some questionable choices lately no doubt but the point still stands. The advertised features are actually implemented and they work, which is way ahead of the QC. Don't want to derail into OS platform debates though, was just making that point.

I hope they deliver on everything in the original feature list in a timely manner and it grows into what was promised.


----------



## GunpointMetal

SamSam said:


> Overall the QC feels more like a large desktop Interface as opposed to a rugged floor unit. I am not much of a mover on stage but if I have to make several changes quickly (Rhythm - solo 1 w/ wah - rhythm - solo 2 - rhythm) the narrow switches are a pain in the arse.


This was the major thing that made my decision easy on whether to jump in early with it last year. Once we saw the full device, it did not look like a live performance piece of equipment to me. Once they're in regular stock and a few more updates in I might take one for a test drive. I'm still willing to die on the hill of "if you're going to release a >$1k floor modeler at least INCLUDE a compatible expression pedal, though. For that price there's no reason to require additional hardware to use all of the available features.


----------



## SamSam

GunpointMetal said:


> This was the major thing that made my decision easy on whether to jump in early with it last year. Once we saw the full device, it did not look like a live performance piece of equipment to me. Once they're in regular stock and a few more updates in I might take one for a test drive. I'm still willing to die on the hill of "if you're going to release a >$1k floor modeler at least INCLUDE a compatible expression pedal, though. For that price there's no reason to require additional hardware to use all of the available features.



I use the same exp pedals for axe2, fm3 and qc. An integrated expression pedal would have been a reason for me to pass on the qc.


----------



## RevDrucifer

GunpointMetal said:


> This was the major thing that made my decision easy on whether to jump in early with it last year. Once we saw the full device, it did not look like a live performance piece of equipment to me. Once they're in regular stock and a few more updates in I might take one for a test drive. I'm still willing to die on the hill of "if you're going to release a >$1k floor modeler at least INCLUDE a compatible expression pedal, though. For that price there's no reason to require additional hardware to use all of the available features.



An attached expression pedal is an automatic non-starter for me. Honestly, I have no clue how reliable they are at this point and they may be working out great for Helix guys, I’ve just had so many wah and volume pedals break over the years, more than any other piece of gear, that I don’t trust it.

My rig is set up now so if my board went down, I can still get through a gig, I’d just have to use one sound all night. It’s just controlling stuff in the rack, no audio passes through it and no drunk or straightedge and angry audience members can stomp all over the damn thing on me. 

I mean, the AxeFX III is what, $2200 or $2400 now? You still need to cough up the dough to control it. Pretty much the same deal with side-cars with high end studio gear; you don’t HAVE to buy the remote controls for the $4K reverb unit you just bought, but it’ll sure make it a hell of a lot easier to use.


----------



## cardinal

I still want one. Just waiting for them to actually be available.


----------



## GunpointMetal

RevDrucifer said:


> An attached expression pedal is an automatic non-starter for me. Honestly, I have no clue how reliable they are at this point and they may be working out great for Helix guys, I’ve just had so many wah and volume pedals break over the years, more than any other piece of gear, that I don’t trust it.
> 
> My rig is set up now so if my board went down, I can still get through a gig, I’d just have to use one sound all night. It’s just controlling stuff in the rack, no audio passes through it and no drunk or straightedge and angry audience members can stomp all over the damn thing on me.
> 
> I mean, the AxeFX III is what, $2200 or $2400 now? You still need to cough up the dough to control it. Pretty much the same deal with side-cars with high end studio gear; you don’t HAVE to buy the remote controls for the $4K reverb unit you just bought, but it’ll sure make it a hell of a lot easier to use.


That's fine, I'm not expecting or requiring it to be attached. Just included and functional. Totally understand not wanting an attached one, or not wanting one from the same company, but they're limiting the function of the device out of the box by not including one IMO. It's not rack gear, its a floor modeler, so I don't really get the comparison. I think it makes sense for the smaller devices like the FM3 or the HX Stomp to not have them attached/included because those are designed to ultra-compact. If that was Neural's intention they added four too many footswitches to the device to meet the requirement anyways, might as well make it all useable out of the box. Fractal and Line 6 both end up with a lot of people using (much less expensive) third party controllers because they're proprietary ones are overpriced for a controller and also don't include an expression pedal. 
I already had this discussion once, I'm not talking about an integrated EXP pedal attached to the device. I'm talking about making all of the features of the unit available to the end user out of the box.


----------



## SamSam

Would you rather they charge £100 extra and include one in the box or just spend the £100 on one of your choice?

Either way you are paying for the kit. I would rather pay less and use what I (and many others) already have.


----------



## budda

If the r&d supported including an expression pedal, they probably would have


----------



## Emperoff

Truth is most people prefer to not have a built in pedal nowadays. I'm not one of them, but the growing popularity of switchers and small multi-FX units integrated into pedalboards shows that most people would rather add their own pedals.


----------



## Elric

GunpointMetal said:


> That's fine, I'm not expecting or requiring it to be attached. Just included and functional. Totally understand not wanting an attached one, or not wanting one from the same company, but they're limiting the function of the device out of the box by not including one IMO. It's not rack gear, its a floor modeler, so I don't really get the comparison. I think it makes sense for the smaller devices like the FM3 or the HX Stomp to not have them attached/included because those are designed to ultra-compact. If that was Neural's intention they added four too many footswitches to the device to meet the requirement anyways, might as well make it all useable out of the box. Fractal and Line 6 both end up with a lot of people using (much less expensive) third party controllers because they're proprietary ones are overpriced for a controller and also don't include an expression pedal.
> I already had this discussion once, I'm not talking about an integrated EXP pedal attached to the device. I'm talking about making all of the features of the unit available to the end user out of the box.


Everyone’s entitled to their opinions and preferences for sure, but, FWIW, I think you are probably in the minority on your take there. Definitely strikes me as an odd thing to draw a line in the sand over. There are plenty of better reasons NOT to buy into this unit, right now anyway. LOL.

Like some others, I consider it a misfeature to have an EXP built-in (IMHO EXP are one of the more failure prone ‘peripherals’ for a processor) and don’t really see why you would expect one otherwise, since a majority of units do NOT have one included.


----------



## laxu

Yeah count me in to the "no integrated expression pedals" crowd. I'd rather have my Helix be 1/4 smaller than having the expression pedal built in. Sure it works fine but I can't place it where it is most convenient for me without moving the whole unit, I can't leave it out if I want to have something more portable.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

Review summary at 35:43 kinda sums it up for me from the point of view of a studio user.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Elric said:


> Definitely strikes me as an odd thing to draw a line in the sand over. There are plenty of better reasons NOT to buy into this unit, right now anyway. LOL.


 The hard line for me was the that footswitches seem too close together for a busy live show and the overall design looks more like a desktop device that includes footswitches than a performance device that also works as an audio interface. Then the delays, what was included in the initial firmware (or more what wasn't), lots of reported noise issues with other electronics after they did ship. I'm probably also in the minority that if I buy an floor modeler performance is primary concern and getting an all-in-one device that still requires additional hardware, then a pedalboard to make changeovers as easy as something like the Helix or the GT-1000. It seems 80% of the people buying hardware in this realm these days are playing Madison Square Basement (which is fine) and aren't concerned with cables, PSUs, etc as possible failure points or striking and loading a stage in 5 minutes. I'm probably also in the minority in that I've owned floor modelers since the GT-5 and have never had an EXP pedal, footswitch, or display crap out on me over the life of any of them while I was using them. I've had way more single pedals have function/hardware issues. It it what it is, but I'd take something that's 99% as good of a sound with 100% of the features I want over the device that might sounds 1% better.


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> It seems 80% of the people buying hardware in this realm these days are playing Madison Square Basement (which is fine) and aren't concerned with cables, PSUs, etc as possible failure points or striking and loading a stage in 5 minutes. I'm probably also in the minority in that I've owned floor modelers since the GT-5 and have never had an EXP pedal, footswitch, or display crap out on me over the life of any of them while I was using them. I've had way more single pedals have function/hardware issues. It it what it is, but I'd take something that's 99% as good of a sound with 100% of the features I want over the device that might sounds 1% better.



Well, if it's of any comfort you can count me in in that minority. I've made a truckload of shows with just a Boss GT-100 controlling my tube amp. I've definetely had more issues with separate pedal setups, so I keep those for my less serious projects since I still like to fiddle with pedals (and there is another guitarist to cover me if shit happens).


----------



## laxu

GunpointMetal said:


> The hard line for me was the that footswitches seem too close together for a busy live show and the overall design looks more like a desktop device that includes footswitches than a performance device that also works as an audio interface.



Personally I did not find that the switches were too close together for my feet but this will be personal preference. I'll take more cramped switches than the 3 switch setup on the FM3. The screen is also much more readable on the floor than the tiny text of the FM3 and the gig view is pretty nice.

I do agree that the QC works best as a desktop device. That's where it's easiest to use.


----------



## bronxct1

My unit arrived yesterday. I haven’t been keeping up with anything around this since I ordered so I spent last night setting it up and messing around a bit with the presets and some captures. I liked what I heard so today I’ll dig deeper. This seems like the perfect thing for me as I can’t play loud all the time with the kid. Really easy to use and get some good sounds so far.


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> Personally I did not find that the switches were too close together for my feet but this will be personal preference. I'll take more cramped switches than the 3 switch setup on the FM3. The screen is also much more readable on the floor than the tiny text of the FM3 and the gig view is pretty nice.
> 
> I do agree that the QC works best as a desktop device. That's where it's easiest to use.



Kind of damning for a floor unit


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> I'd say that even if it doesn't, manufacturers could jump ship and pretend it does for more profit. It happens with computer parts all the time.



Remember in 2011 or 2012 when those hard drive factories flooded and the price of a 1TB HDD tripled overnight, then the prices only ever came back down to like double what they were before?  



Emperoff said:


> _"The most powerful multi-FX (floor) processor in the market"
> _
> In the end, people just want shit that sounds great and does what's advertised without issues.



Whenever a company talks about how cRaZy PoWeRfUL their new effects unit is it makes me laugh since most people (including myself) who get it are just looking to recreate a 5150 tone, and my POD from 2009ish does that passably well.


----------



## Emperoff

Matt08642 said:


> Remember in 2011 or 2012 when those hard drive factories flooded and the price of a 1TB HDD tripled overnight, then the prices only ever came back down to like double what they were before?
> 
> 
> 
> Whenever a company talks about how cRaZy PoWeRfUL their new effects unit is it makes me laugh since most people (including myself) who get it are just looking to recreate a 5150 tone, and my POD from 2009ish does that passably well.



Indeed. Same thing with the RAM memory. Now graphics cards due to miners, etc. They won't go back to pre-mining prices either. Manufacturers just ride the wave and always end up winning in the long run.

And yes, your statement about modellers was spot on . Gotta say older units sound surprisingly good with proper IRs, though!


----------



## laxu

budda said:


> Kind of damning for a floor unit


I'd say the same about pretty much any floor unit. I hate reaching down to the floor to adjust anything. But at the same time I don't like rack units either as they are often larger and heavier than needed plus having a decent size display quickly makes them 3 or 4U.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> Kind of damning for a floor unit



Give it a rest.

I'm a Fractal user too, but this is just ridiculous.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> Give it a rest.
> 
> I'm a Fractal user too, but this is just ridiculous.



You didn't laugh when you read that line? He clears it up in the next post anyway.

That's not a "fractal is better" reaction, that's a "my car works best parked" comedy chuckle.


----------



## Randy

Hopped over to the TGP thread for the first time in a few months, Jesus Christ what a sycophantic crowd.

I can't believe the way people gloss over the price increase as if it's insignificant. Yeah everyone's hurting but still the biggest price hike of any of the modeling companies at the moment and not insignificantly leapfrogged the entire Kemper non-powered line in one shot. 

Goes from a $1500-ish dollar unit to a $2000+ unit with NYS tax and shipping. $2000 for a unit you put on the floor is just not reasonable, period. And yes it can be used as a desktop model but a pedal on a stand is hokey.

They should've eaten it on the material costs and saved the $$$ increase for the "Quad Cortex Pro" studio/rack unit and could be 99% of the same guts but in a format that's more appropriate for a pro studio. 

With the lifecycle of these things (5 to 10 years), yeah the Quad Cortex is a popular unit because it's new and the hype is bonkers but after the newness has worn off, can you see a studio with a QC sitting on the desk the same way tons of studios have Kempers, Fractals and even Helix racks mounted as part of their workflow? Ain't gonna happen. The form factor is a limitation and the pricepoint of the floor unit boxes them in.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> They should've eaten it on the material costs and saved the $$$ increase for the "Quad Cortex Pro" studio/rack unit and could be 99% of the same guts but in a format that's more appropriate for a pro studio.
> 
> With the lifecycle of these things (5 to 10 years), yeah the Quad Cortex is a popular unit because it's new and the hype is bonkers but after the newness has worn off, can you see a studio with a QC sitting on the desk the same way tons of studios have Kempers, Fractals and even Helix racks mounted as part of their workflow? Ain't gonna happen. The form factor is a limitation and the pricepoint of the floor unit boxes them in.



I don't think I would like it as a rack unit at all. To me the workflow is just not all that suited for it. The touchscreen and knobs underneath it make it just better to be used on the desk more like a mixer or something. The typical workflow is to tap on screen and then work the knobs, then tap something else and go back to the knobs. While you can adjust controls from the screen too, it's just nicer to have that physical feel. Maybe when they release a desktop editor for it a rack mounted version makes more sense but personally I'd rather see it designed differently from the floor unit or else you probably have a 3-4U touchscreen thing with a lot of empty space.


----------



## Randy

I have no use for a rack unit either but I'm just going off of what I see other companies doing to target audience for this price range.

Really, the problem NDSP had is that most companies start with a rack unit, then a floorboard, then a condensed floorboard. They jumped straight to the condensed floorboard. Which makes it tempting since that's where everyone ends up eventually but getting it out of order kinds screwed up the rollout.

The form factor will remain a deal breaker for a lot of folks, so yeah they have the option to plug those gaps with subsequent releases but they released what everyone else typically market as their cheapest box (FM3, HX Stomp, Stage). Are people going to pay $2000 to $2500 for a bigger QC or a rack version? Tough call.


----------



## Randy

To be clear, I'm not entirely talking out of my ass on this. I've owned multiple similar and competing units, and either downgraded or sold off completely because the form factor was inconvenient and I either 

1.) wanted something that worked better for me 
2.) didn't want as much money tied up in something if I was gonna be lukewarm or inconvenienced using it
3.) felt better off abandoning the idea completely and solving my issue differently (ie: go all plugin, stick to amp with modest pedalboard live)

And I just do not long term see the Quad Cortex, in it's current form, as something studios will be dedicating table space for and the limitations of the size and the price mean it's very unlikely a practical gig/touring rig either. After the novelty wears off, it's a hobbyist studio unit, bedroom and weekend worship player floor unit and that's it. Unless they diversify but again, starting where they did puts them at a disadvantage as far as expanding the line and pricing.


----------



## laxu

Randy said:


> I have no use for a rack unit either but I'm just going off of what I see other companies doing to target audience for this price range.
> 
> Really, the problem NDSP had is that most companies start with a rack unit, then a floorboard, then a condensed floorboard. They jumped straight to the condensed floorboard. Which makes it tempting since that's where everyone ends up eventually but getting it out of order kinds screwed up the rollout.
> 
> The form factor will remain a deal breaker for a lot of folks, so yeah they have the option to plug those gaps with subsequent releases but they released what everyone else typically market as their cheapest box (FM3, HX Stomp, Stage). Are people going to pay $2000 to $2500 for a bigger QC or a rack version? Tough call.



The rack units and large floorboards tend to be more of a dealbreaker for many people. People have been asking Fractal to make a more powerful floor unit for quite some time now. Likewise I am not alone in wanting something smaller than the Helix Floor with at least as much DSP.

NeuralDSP nailed the form factor of the QC. It has enough horsepower, controls, switching and I/O to satisfy most users while still being smaller than anything even remotely as powerful. I don't think they are looking to make a "Quad Cortex Pro", this is their flagship device. They are more likely to release a less powerful, smaller and cheaper "Duo Cortex" several years along the line, kind of like their version of the HX Stomp or Boss GT-1000 Core. Probably won't be exactly cheap either.

A lot of these floor units are now built with the premise that they are the heart of your pedalboard. HX Stomp's limited DSP is fine if you have some other pedals to augment its capabilities. Only reason I don't go that route is the limitations of the Stomp's UI compared to full Helix. FM3 is kind of in the same boat but has far less limitations. Maybe throw your favorite reverb pedal in the loop and it's unlikely to limit most players. I've even seen someone pair the HX Stomp with the FM3 because the Stomp's poly pitch shifting is better (but eats the majority of its DSP).

Hobbyists probably drive this market a lot more than studio or touring musicians.


----------



## narad

laxu said:


> The rack units and large floorboards tend to be more of a dealbreaker for many people. People have been asking Fractal to make a more powerful floor unit for quite some time now. Likewise I am not alone in wanting something smaller than the Helix Floor with at least as much DSP.
> 
> NeuralDSP nailed the form factor of the QC. It has enough horsepower, controls, switching and I/O to satisfy most users while still being smaller than anything even remotely as powerful. I don't think they are looking to make a "Quad Cortex Pro", this is their flagship device. They are more likely to release a less powerful, smaller and cheaper "Duo Cortex" several years along the line, kind of like their version of the HX Stomp or Boss GT-1000 Core. Probably won't be exactly cheap either.
> 
> A lot of these floor units are now built with the premise that they are the heart of your pedalboard. HX Stomp's limited DSP is fine if you have some other pedals to augment its capabilities. Only reason I don't go that route is the limitations of the Stomp's UI compared to full Helix. FM3 is kind of in the same boat but has far less limitations. Maybe throw your favorite reverb pedal in the loop and it's unlikely to limit most players. I've even seen someone pair the HX Stomp with the FM3 because the Stomp's poly pitch shifting is better (but eats the majority of its DSP).
> 
> Hobbyists probably drive this market a lot more than studio or touring musicians.



Yea, the latest iteration is probably driven by instagram and stimulus checks. I had to actively tell instagram to stop showing me neuraldsp stuff every 5 posts. Not smart enough to know that I want neural or dsp, not neuraldsp.


----------



## mikah912

Randy said:


> To be clear, I'm not entirely talking out of my ass on this. I've owned multiple similar and competing units, and either downgraded or sold off completely because the form factor was inconvenient and I either
> 
> 1.) wanted something that worked better for me
> 2.) didn't want as much money tied up in something if I was gonna be lukewarm or inconvenienced using it
> 3.) felt better off abandoning the idea completely and solving my issue differently (ie: go all plugin, stick to amp with modest pedalboard live)
> 
> And I just do not long term see the Quad Cortex, in it's current form, as something studios will be dedicating table space for and the limitations of the size and the price mean it's very unlikely a practical gig/touring rig either. After the novelty wears off, it's a hobbyist studio unit, bedroom and weekend worship player floor unit and that's it. Unless they diversify but again, starting where they did puts them at a disadvantage as far as expanding the line and pricing.



In this particular case, that's a solution in search of a problem as the types of studios keeping a Kemper in-house aren't exactly clamoring for another "profiling" platform to support.

I agree with Laxu that hobbyists/mild semi-pros have and will continue to drive this product. It seems like they're selling all they can make for now, so hopefully that'll put the wind in their sails to shore up the myriad of beta/problem areas.


----------



## Emperoff

This is entirely the case. It's 100% a hobbyst/Youtube/Instagram driven device. No sane touring musician will use this live unless being a shoegazer that doesn't move a damn inch from the board onstage.

Those switches are just too close. I fucking hate to "carefully aim for the right switch, or screw a solo". I want to STOMP the damn thing and run to the center of the stage to solo, or run back to my spot just in time to hit that "solo" switch if I'm somewhere else.


----------



## Randy

3 month follow-up


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Pro: Touch Screen
Con: it's not that good

The foot switches seem to be surviving at least.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pro: Touch Screen
> Con: it's not that good


----------



## laxu

Personally I never had any real issues with the touchscreen beyond some touch targets being a bit small. That's not an issue of the touchscreen itself. I felt it was good and responsive.


----------



## RevDrucifer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pro: Touch Screen
> Con: it's not that good
> 
> The foot switches seem to be surviving at least.



That’s because everyone has the thing on their desk due to not wanting to bend over to dial shit in.


----------



## RevDrucifer

I gotta give NDSP credit; they’ve managed to hold onto a few people who don’t seem to mind being treated like morons. 

“We didn’t fix the shit we said we were going to fix in the time we said we would, so we added them to a future update, but you’re going to get it early because we’re ahead of schedule on THAT update!”


----------



## c7spheres

People are trying to get like $2500+ for them on Reverb. This is crazy. I guess if you really want it go for it but I haven't heard anything at all that compares to an Axe, Kemper, or Helix, tbh. Nothing matters if it don't sound good. 
- I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I can honestly say I haven't heard one clip I like from it yet. Not one. Not even a damn clean tone! I don't even have any fight in this game or own a modeller but for this price I'd rather buy another anything else. When I look at it I think maybe it's worth like $300-$400, new. I see it as being in PodGo territory. Again, no disrespect to Nueral or the owners of these, but I just don't see it or hear it. It's just not there yet from what I've heard, seen or read.


----------



## technomancer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pro: Touch Screen
> Con: it's not that good
> 
> The foot switches seem to be surviving at least.





RevDrucifer said:


> I gotta give NDSP credit; they’ve managed to hold onto a few people who don’t seem to mind being treated like morons.
> 
> “We didn’t fix the shit we said we were going to fix in the time we said we would, so we added them to a future update, but you’re going to get it early because we’re ahead of schedule on THAT update!”


----------



## RevDrucifer

c7spheres said:


> People are trying to get like $2500+ for them on Reverb. This is crazy. I guess if you really want it go for it but I haven't heard anything at all that compares to an Axe, Kemper, or Helix, tbh. Nothing matters if it don't sound good.
> - I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I can honestly say I haven't heard one clip I like from it yet. Not one. Not even a damn clean tone! I don't even have any fight in this game or own a modeller but for this price I'd rather buy another anything else. When I look at it I think maybe it's worth like $300-$400, new. I see it as being in PodGo territory. Again, no disrespect to Nueral or the owners of these, but I just don't see it or hear it. It's just not there yet from what I've heard, seen or read.



Being fair, there was an Archon capture I heard a few months back that was fucking SICK. Which reminds me, I need to track that clip down so I can dial it in in my AxeFX. Overall I haven’t heard many tones I’d consider bad, effects for sure, but the captures have been pretty decent.

The one thing that seems to be rather glaring is the lack of model clips. I hear a SHITLOAD more captures than I do models and I have to wonder if that’s a result of the modeling not being up to par with NDSP’s plug-ins, which I’ve seen stated several times, or that people have been unable to get the plugin sounds using the same models in the QC. I’m not referring to the SLO, which we know the QC has the old version of with the plugin being the new version, I mean just models in general. 

Like why are people capturing the NDSP plugins instead of just dialing the shit in if they’re the same?


----------



## GunpointMetal

RevDrucifer said:


> Like why are people capturing the NDSP plugins instead of just dialing the shit in if they’re the same?


 I've seen this several places and it kinda boggles my mind. I still think it was a mistake to not just port the plugins to the device, even if feature plugin releases would be paid, the stuff that already exists should have been the first stuff in the QC. If I can't actually get my hands on one to try it out without buying it first, I'll probably never know if its good or not though.


----------



## budda

GunpointMetal said:


> I've seen this several places and it kinda boggles my mind. I still think it was a mistake to not just port the plugins to the device, even if feature plugin releases would be paid, the stuff that already exists should have been the first stuff in the QC. If I can't actually get my hands on one to try it out without buying it first, I'll probably never know if its good or not though.



Didnt Neural say it was going to run the plugins?


----------



## michael_bolton

Randy said:


> ... After the novelty wears off, it's a hobbyist studio unit, bedroom and weekend worship player floor unit and that's it. Unless they diversify but again, starting where they did puts them at a disadvantage as far as expanding the line and pricing.




that's where the $$$ is at though. for every touring pro there's gazillions of hobbyists to sell this to. big time bands using something on stage is great for advertising but is not a requirement for something to be selling like hotcakes.


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> Didnt Neural say it was going to run the plugins?


 Eventually, as long as your already bought the plugin. It seems like they included sub-par amp modeling with a focus on profiling when they have some of the most popular amp modeling plugins available. I kinda see (hopefully I'm wrong) them getting firmware updates out to get it up to what they intended for release then having paid content from there on out with everything being a VST you have to buy to get the models in the QC.


----------



## Emperoff

Looks like they acknowledged they can't touch Fractal, so they went all in against Kemper. Sounds like a good strategy to me. QC fanboys always resort to the capture function to justify the price tag, so...


----------



## Randy

michael_bolton said:


> that's where the $$$ is at though. for every touring pro there's gazillions of hobbyists to sell this to. big time bands using something on stage is great for advertising but is not a requirement for something to be selling like hotcakes.



Welllllll, pricepoint pokes holes in that. 

Fender makes more money off of Squires than they do the equivalent model in MIA/MIM or custom shop, because they make up for the price difference in volume since there are more beginners than there are blues lawyers.

That doesn't work when the QC is $1850+ and priced the same as a "touring pro" equivalent. And actually, most hobbyists are using it in a studio where the "pro"
version would be at home anyway, meaning rack. 

A more apples to apples comparison between pro vs hobbyist use would be the NDSP plugins vs QC sales, and I'd venture to guess they make way more on the plugins due to the volume of hobbyists willing to dip a toe at $100 vs $1850.


----------



## c7spheres

Hearing how popular their plugins are it's doesn't make sense why it's been such a rough start for this unit. 
Speculation; -It's almost like they had a perfect plan when in the design phases and were on track, then some new managment or something came from upstairs to push the unit out way ahead of time or something so they were forced to deliver an inferior product. - It just seems something like that happened, being the plugins are so popular. 
- It's hard to see the engineers being the problem with what's happening. Smells more like a bad managment decision. The guy that don't know anything techincal but calls all the shots.


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> Hearing how popular their plugins are it's doesn't make sense why it's been such a rough start for this unit.
> Speculation; -It's almost like they had a perfect plan when in the design phases and were on track, then some new managment or something came from upstairs to push the unit out way ahead of time or something so they were forced to deliver an inferior product. - It just seems something like that happened, being the plugins are so popular.
> - It's hard to see the engineers being the problem with what's happening. Smells more like a bad managment decision. The guy that don't know anything techincal but calls all the shots.



Doug Castro founded NeuralDSP, but apparently he's not in charge anymore so it might be the case.


----------



## laxu

RevDrucifer said:


> Like why are people capturing the NDSP plugins instead of just dialing the shit in if they’re the same?



It's just for fun to try and see if it works. With no support for the plugins being used in the QC this is what people do if they want to get their favorite plugin sound into the unit. The cab sims are already the same you find in the plugins afaik.


----------



## laxu

c7spheres said:


> Hearing how popular their plugins are it's doesn't make sense why it's been such a rough start for this unit.
> Speculation; -It's almost like they had a perfect plan when in the design phases and were on track, then some new managment or something came from upstairs to push the unit out way ahead of time or something so they were forced to deliver an inferior product. - It just seems something like that happened, being the plugins are so popular.
> - It's hard to see the engineers being the problem with what's happening. Smells more like a bad managment decision. The guy that don't know anything techincal but calls all the shots.



They were simply way too optimistic about their release schedule. Had they released it this fall it would have been in a better condition but who knows what business decisions were needed considering the component shortages etc. The price increases reflect that and increased shipping costs so releasing it this year has not worked in their favor at all.



GunpointMetal said:


> Eventually, as long as your already bought the plugin. It seems like they included sub-par amp modeling with a focus on profiling when they have some of the most popular amp modeling plugins available. I kinda see (hopefully I'm wrong) them getting firmware updates out to get it up to what they intended for release then having paid content from there on out with everything being a VST you have to buy to get the models in the QC.



It's always been machine learning first, I think they even have a few patents for some of their stuff. I expect that the full amp models are just a complex version of their capture tech which is why they don't have things like advanced tweaking parameters that don't exist on the real amp. Soundwise captures and amp models are similar, it's just that the amp models are not all consistently good, whether due to deficiencies in modeling or the particular amp tested. For example I compared the FM3 Cygnus JTM45 model to the one in the QC and there was no significant difference between them.


----------



## Wolfhorsky

Honestly, I just wish they could make a product that contains their plugins. Some basic, yet great quality, mod fx / delays / reverbs. And seemless switching between the preset. Simple and elegant design. With their trademark great sounds from their plugins. With the option to buy new ones in the future. With this kind of screen they could implement the graphic layout known from their plugins. I don’t care for the capturing feature. My


----------



## nightlight

Do you think the idea of dumbed down models within the QC is a strategy to get people to buy the plugins whenever they figure out how to get them onboard the QC? I was thinking that would make sense at least from a business point of view, since a lot of the guys with QCs would dive at the opportunity.

As far as the clips, I honestly prefer my Kemper because it's so organic. And I also think that some of the criticism about the Kemper not being a "tweaker's device" may be unfounded. I've been guilty of it, but of late, I find that I can do a hell of a lot of things with some of the FX and by tweaking the original profile of an amp.

Listen to this clip, it's my take on a chainsaw death metal tone using an HM-2, but I just used a Kemper model and tweaked it.

PS: It's really loud, so lower your headphone volume. No EQing, or anything, just direct into Garageband because I didn't have any other DAW set up. 

https://soundcloud.com/arvind-jayaram/attempt-at-hm-2-tone-with-kemper

I didn't really have a point of reference, so I just thought "chainsaw". The dual clip at the end is actually both the original version and a slightly more refined chainsaw tone I came up with. They don't really play nice together, but I thought I could really do some interesting things with that tone in a mix.


----------



## laxu

nightlight said:


> Do you think the idea of dumbed down models within the QC is a strategy to get people to buy the plugins whenever they figure out how to get them onboard the QC? I was thinking that would make sense at least from a business point of view, since a lot of the guys with QCs would dive at the opportunity.



If that was their goal they would have launched the QC with plugin support. Plus you can already download free captures of the plugins and NeuralDSP's response to that has been "we don't really care" because it's not going to be the full capabilities of the plugin and they don't have a system in place to stop that either. It's not worth spending developers' time (and thus money) on counter measures.


----------



## nightlight

laxu said:


> If that was their goal they would have launched the QC with plugin support. Plus you can already download free captures of the plugins and NeuralDSP's response to that has been "we don't really care" because it's not going to be the full capabilities of the plugin and they don't have a system in place to stop that either. It's not worth spending developers' time (and thus money) on counter measures.



Yeah, but if you can load the entire plugin into your QC, and you can only do that if you own, I'm sure tonnes of people would jump on board. Like I said, it would make business sense. Plus, it's obvious the QC was rushed out, so it's possible they didn't have time to include the plugin loading capability. 

Of course, this is all my own conjecture, and I don't own one. Just speculating out loud.


----------



## laxu

nightlight said:


> Yeah, but if you can load the entire plugin into your QC, and you can only do that if you own, I'm sure tonnes of people would jump on board. Like I said, it would make business sense. Plus, it's obvious the QC was rushed out, so it's possible they didn't have time to include the plugin loading capability.



They never promised the plugin loading on release in the first place. It has always been "buy plugin, use it in QC when it supports it".


----------



## Emperoff

Honestly who cares. You already have captures available of the real amps the plugins model. And if you care about amp modelling instead you should buy Fractal anyway.


----------



## MetalDaze

New update available. 



> CorOS 1.1.0 includes two brand new devices: Digital Flanger and Shimmer as well as Expression Bypassand auto-engage functionality for expression pedals. Furthermore, all of the Reverb and Delay devices have been optimized allowing for more instances to run in a single Preset. System boot time has been reduced by approximately 25% and USB audio performance has been significantly improved on MacOS and Windows computers.


----------



## budda

Does it have plate reverb now?


----------



## Miek

I see a lot of people having issues with the quad cortex at the moment and a lot of the complaints make sense to me; that being said, it still kind of seems like the all in one unit for how I work. If there's anyone here who's had the Helix or FM3 and can comment on how it affected their workflow in each case, i'd be interested to hear.


----------



## laxu

Miek said:


> I see a lot of people having issues with the quad cortex at the moment and a lot of the complaints make sense to me; that being said, it still kind of seems like the all in one unit for how I work. If there's anyone here who's had the Helix or FM3 and can comment on how it affected their workflow in each case, i'd be interested to hear.



Had all three, current own the FM3 and Helix Floor still while the QC got sold because I did not want to hold onto it waiting for updates.

The FM3 is my desktop and travel unit, something smaller that is more portable than the Helix Floor. Something hooked up into my computer. FM3 works well for that because you can avoid all the crappy bits about it just using it with FM3-Edit.

The Helix Floor is the "brain" of my tube amp rig. It handles switching, routing and effects in 4 cable method. I wish it was more compact but it is super easy to operate from its front panel. It works way better than the FM3 when you are not hooked up to a computer.

I hoped the Quad Cortex could have done double duties for both of those usecases. I loved pretty much everything about the hardware. It's compact, it's got tons of knobs/switches on the front panel, the touchscreen makes selecting things very easy and it has enough I/O to serve my needs.

It's unfortunate the software side still needs plenty of work. The effects selection was more limited than I hoped and some of the effects did not sound as good as Helix or FM3 when I tried putting them side by side and matching the QC to my favorite tones from the others. The capture feature was great, could use some minor usability improvements but it did capture the sound of my tube amps very well.


----------



## fgmirra

Megadeth using a Quad Cortex on tour


----------



## budda

So uh, where we at with this?


----------



## broangiel

budda said:


> So uh, where we at with this?


They’ve still not caught up on the features included in their initial announcement.


----------



## narad

budda said:


> So uh, where we at with this?



_Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair_


----------



## Deadpool_25

budda said:


> So uh, where we at with this?


Fractal.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Deadpool_25 said:


> Fractal.


Seriously, the FM9 seemed to kill interest in this thing


----------



## Deadpool_25

I’m going to see Intervals tonight. I know Aaron used all NDSP plugins on Circadian. Last time I saw him live I thought he was using an AxeFX but can’t remember for sure. I’m almost positive Travis was using AxeFX with Scale the Summit before he left. I’m curious what they’re using now.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m going to see Intervals tonight. I know Aaron used all NDSP plugins on Circadian.



Let us know if he's rocking that sweet looking Schecter.


----------



## Jeffrey Bain

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m going to see Intervals tonight. I know Aaron used all NDSP plugins on Circadian. Last time I saw him live I thought he was using an AxeFX but can’t remember for sure. I’m almost positive Travis was using AxeFX with Scale the Summit before he left. I’m curious what they’re using now.


I believe Aaron mentioned he'll be using the quad cortex on this tour; he has a REVV 2x12 on stage for stage sound. Because I'm not vaccinated I had to miss the show in LA last night; tickets were not able to transfer/be refunded. Super bummed. Enjoy it for the both of us!


----------



## sleewell

we played with a band last weekend who used 2 of the QCs. they used the seymour duncan powerstages into cabs. sounded pretty good. i think i preferred the kpas that other bands used but i gotta say they had one section that used some crazy effects that sounded amazing. i meant to ask them about them but didn't get a chance. 

i heard that sweetwater finally got their pre orders in so the times of hugely inflated prices on reverb may be coming to an end.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Jeffrey Bain said:


> I believe Aaron mentioned he'll be using the quad cortex on this tour; he has a REVV 2x12 on stage for stage sound. Because I'm not vaccinated I had to miss the show in LA last night; tickets were not able to transfer/be refunded. Super bummed. Enjoy it for the both of us!



Damn. Sorry you had to miss it. I’ll do my best to send positive vibes your way tonight! 

That’s kinda what I was wondering on the QC. If so it’ll be the first time hearing one in person so that’ll be cool. Honestly, all the top-shelf modelers sound really good these days so I expect it’ll sound great.


----------



## Deadpool_25

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Seriously, the FM9 seemed to kill interest in this thing



There were two reasons I was originally interested in the QC: the ability two run more than one amp (primary) the UI (secondary).

Now that I have the FM9 in hand, and now that I’m even more comfortable with the Fractal UI, I’m good to go in terms of modeling. If I need to scratch my NDSP itch I’ll just use one of the five plugins I own lol.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Deadpool_25 said:


> There were two reasons I was originally interested in the QC: the ability two run more than one amp (primary) the UI (secondary).
> 
> Now that I have the FM9 in hand, and now that I’m even more comfortable with the Fractal UI, I’m good to go in terms of modeling. If I need to scratch my NDSP itch I’ll just use one of the five plugins I own lol.



Yeah the dual-amp thing is one of the things that made me consider the NDSP if I ever had to sell my III. But now that the FM9 is out, if I ever gotta downsize... yeah I'm sticking with Fractal or Line 6.


----------



## cardinal

I still want a QC for it's profiling (the Kemper UI scares me), but I haven't kept updated on whether it's actually any good at that.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Deadpool_25 said:


> I’m going to see Intervals tonight. I know Aaron used all NDSP plugins on Circadian. Last time I saw him live I thought he was using an AxeFX but can’t remember for sure. I’m almost positive Travis was using AxeFX with Scale the Summit before he left. I’m curious what they’re using now.





Jeffrey Bain said:


> I believe Aaron mentioned he'll be using the quad cortex on this tour; he has a REVV 2x12 on stage for stage sound. Because I'm not vaccinated I had to miss the show in LA last night; tickets were not able to transfer/be refunded. Super bummed. Enjoy it for the both of us!



I just went back to this picture in the Schecter thread and yeah, there's an NDSP on his board. I also see a big honkin pedal to the side of it, not sure what it is.


----------



## katsumura78

If you check his Instagram he’s got the rig posted there. There’s a microcosm on the board and a couple other fun pedals. I think the digitech freakout?


----------



## Randy

cardinal said:


> I still want a QC for it's profiling (the Kemper UI scares me), but I haven't kept updated on whether it's actually any good at that.



The PC/iPad interface for the KPA is super intuitive. The physical one less so but I opted for the Toaster because the layout is easier to navigate having it arranged the way it is.

I wouldn't mind the QC maybe someday when the hype is officially dead and you can get them for sane prices but the back catalog of KPA profiles built up over the last 10 years is a hard mountain to overcome.

My current "A" collection of KPA profiles are made from amps I've literally drooled over most of my life. The Jerry Cantrell Snorkeler, the 'Slave to the Grind' Riveras, the Friedman Naked from Mer De Noms, the Demeter preamps+VHT poweramps from STP Core, etc. I mean, if someone went on a mission they could do the same thing with the QC but they're just already out there with the KPA.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Setting up now but this is for you yahoos lol



Three QCs on the stage btw.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The LED controller is the most important part of the pedalboard.


----------



## narad

If you've got a microcosm on your board you're obviously just setting it up for brand promotion. No one knows how to use that.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Well the QCs sounded great. Of course the playing was phenomenal and the sound guy was awesome as well. Further reinforces my belief that all the top modelers are really good, especially so in a gig environment where nuances tend to get lost. 

Which is definitely not to say one necessarily sounds better than another—one person will like the sound of one better and someone else will prefer another. I’m just saying the nuances get blurred when going through all the PA stuff and in a crowd and just generally in a loud band context.


----------



## Vyn

Deadpool_25 said:


> Well the QCs sounded great. Of course the playing was phenomenal and the sound guy was awesome as well. Further reinforces my belief that all the top modelers are really good, especially so in a gig environment where nuances tend to get lost.
> 
> Which is definitely not to say one necessarily sounds better than another—one person will like the sound of one better and someone else will prefer another. I’m just saying the nuances get blurred when going through all the PA stuff and in a crowd and just generally in a loud band context.



This is precisely why I haven't bothered with anything more expensive than a Helix, live the differences aren't noticeable.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Vyn said:


> This is precisely why I haven't bothered with anything more expensive than a Helix, live the differences aren't noticeable.


 The only person who can ever tell the difference is your recording engineer and you while you're playing.


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> The only person who can ever tell the difference is your recording engineer and you while you're playing.



And your wallet.


----------



## CanserDYI

Vyn said:


> This is precisely why I haven't bothered with anything more expensive than a Helix, live the differences aren't noticeable.


That and to my ear, Helix and AxeFX sound "exactly" the same, in terms of quality of sound, and personally I find Helix's user interface to be a bit more easy to use and navigate, and costs half. Not shitting on AxeFX at all, I'm just in love with my Helix LT. Like legit I'd fuck this thing.


----------



## Xaios

CanserDYI said:


> I'm just in love with my Helix LT. Like legit I'd fuck this thing.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I do agree the Helix sounds great, but the Fractal shit has more of the amps I like so unless Line 6 really expands their amp lineup, I'm staying with the Fractal stuff, since they have the JVM, EVH 5153, and a Mark IV that lets you switch between different settings and modes.


----------



## cardinal

The Fractal ability to switch impedance curves is very useful for me (since I play through cabs and not necessarily the "default" cab for these sims). It makes such a huge difference to the tone that it's made me nervous to really look into other things for modeling. (For profiling, I'd try to just profile a line out from the head (but while the head is connected to my cabinet), so that should all work out I think).


----------



## Vyn

CanserDYI said:


> That and to my ear, Helix and AxeFX sound "exactly" the same, in terms of quality of sound, and personally I find Helix's user interface to be a bit more easy to use and navigate, and costs half. Not shitting on AxeFX at all, I'm just in love with my Helix LT. Like legit I'd fuck this thing.



Should clarify that I wasn't shitting on the more expensive modellers either, they are fantastic pieces of kit. I just think that after the Helix it really is diminishing returns, it's sub 5% (if that even) difference for significantly more expenditure.


----------



## CanserDYI

Fractal's sound awesome and in general, I'm sure they are 100% more equipped than my helix, I just have been playing my helix for a few years now and still find some new way I can use it every single day of my life, so to spend double the money on something like that is just overkill at this point for me at least.


----------



## Deadpool_25

CanserDYI said:


> Like legit I'd fuck this thing.



It’s all good. Skanks need lovin too.


----------



## WarMachine

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I do agree the Helix sounds great, but the Fractal shit has more of the amps I like so unless Line 6 really expands their amp lineup, I'm staying with the Fractal stuff, since they have the JVM, EVH 5153, and a Mark IV that lets you switch between different settings and modes.


A 5153 and JVM sim would be tits for the Helix/PODGo.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

WarMachine said:


> A 5153 and JVM sim would be tits for the Helix/PODGo.



Seriously, they're such popular amps that I'm surprised they haven't put them in yet.

If you can put in a Supro and Grammatico, you can put in JVM and EVH. 

EDIT: They also need to fill my niche needs and put in a Marshall 8100 model.


----------



## WarMachine

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Seriously, they're such popular amps that I'm surprised they haven't put them in yet.
> 
> If you can put in a Supro and Grammatico, you can put in JVM and EVH.


Honestly with the right tweaking and IR's id say the BE100 would get you pretty damn close to both amps. I watched a video about a month ago of Kiko's from a little mini rig rundown and he was showing they are using the BE100 sim on the QC. That should say something, I'm pretty sure they still track in the studio with the JVM's.


----------



## drb

WarMachine said:


> A 5153 and JVM sim would be tits for the Helix/PODGo.



Literally the only reason I still have GAS after getting an HX Stomp are those 2 amps. Got a 5153 now and eyeing up any JVMs that come on the used market for cheap.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

WarMachine said:


> Honestly with the right tweaking and IR's id say the BE100 would get you pretty damn close to both amps. I watched a video about a month ago of Kiko's from a little mini rig rundown and he was showing they are using the BE100 sim on the QC. That should say something, I'm pretty sure they still track in the studio with the JVM's.



I like them both for certain sounds. The BE100 more classic saggy modded Plexi sounding and the JVM more of a stiffer modern Marshall JCM. I'm sure with heavy EQing the BE100 can sound close, but there's some unique qualities each one has. 



drb said:


> Literally the only reason I still have GAS after getting an HX Stomp are those 2 amps. Got a 5153 now and eyeing up any JVMs that come on the used market for cheap.



I know I said the JVM is popular, but I still feel like it's a really underappreciated amp. It's legit my most used in the Axe III next to the Mark IV, TriAxis, and 5153 Red.


----------



## Emperoff

I think the average Marshall customer gets scared by the amount of knobs and buttons on the JVM. Then the average customer interested in those kind of amps usually won't give Marshall a chance, so there it sits.

I think it's a great sounding amp, but they're not built that well and for the price they go in the US you guys sure have better alternatives like the Friedmans. I've been close to buy the Satriani sig more than one, since they go dirt cheap used around here.


----------



## bigcupholder

WarMachine said:


> A 5153 and JVM sim would be tits for the Helix/PODGo.


Between the PV Panama and Revv Red I think you can cover everything a 5153 can do. Having said that, I'm not against them adding another amp in that style and I'm sure it'd be a big selling point for them.

The JVM would be a great addition.


----------



## drb

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I know I said the JVM is popular, but I still feel like it's a really underappreciated amp. It's legit my most used in the Axe III next to the Mark IV, TriAxis, and 5153 Red.



I've never even played one, but I'm from the UK so I feel some patriotic obligation to get a Marshall. However, the videos I've seen from the likes of Rabea, Ola, and SonicDriveStudios' Jon playing the JVM honestly makes it sound unbelievable. It just has something strange going on harmonically that make it sound incredible. I've been tempted to get one of the new DSL range like the 20HR or 100HR but I feel like it won't really scratch the itch of the full blown JVM.



Emperoff said:


> I think the average Marshall customer gets scared by the amount of knobs and buttons on the JVM. Then the average customer interested in those kind of amps usually won't give Marshall a chance, so there it sits.
> 
> I think it's a great sounding amp, but they're not built that well and for the price they go in the US you guys sure have better alternatives like the Friedmans. I've been close to buy the Satriani sig more than one, since they go dirt cheap used around here.


Lmao I feel bad that Marshall are stuck being punished for innovating because of the old guard crowd who just want to live in the past. It feels similar to Gibson and Fender where they tend to just go with what their audience wants but then get criticised for not innovating.

I had absolutely no idea about them being badly built, gonna look at some common issues before I inevitably get one then.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I mean everyone seems to like the DSL, but I feel the JVM sounds much better. It's so fucking mean sounding.


----------



## Emperoff

drb said:


> Lmao I feel bad that Marshall are stuck being punished for innovating because of the old guard crowd who just want to live in the past. It feels similar to Gibson and Fender where they tend to just go with what their audience wants but then get criticised for not innovating.
> 
> I had absolutely no idea about them being badly built, gonna look at some common issues before I inevitably get one then.



I have to clarify that most of the issues I heard were of course by the time I was interested in them. No clue if they have improved them since then.

They are like 1200€ in EU. That is dirt cheap for a 100W "made" in UK amp. Since we're definetely not talking boutique pricing, I don't expect the construction to be either.

For Marshall tones I am severely GAS'd for the Victory Sheriff. I have an EL34 amp so getting the V4 Sheriff Preamp would probably suffice...


----------



## profwoot

I see that 1.3 is out today. I don't own a modeler but I've got my eye on QC for down the road. Looper and freeze are nice additions, but was hoping to see a bit more. They added a couple more tweed suitcases, chorus/flanger, and a bunch of UI stuff. What's the userbase vibe?


----------



## laxu

profwoot said:


> I see that 1.3 is out today. I don't own a modeler but I've got my eye on QC for down the road. Looper and freeze are nice additions, but was hoping to see a bit more. They added a couple more tweed suitcases, chorus/flanger, and a bunch of UI stuff. What's the userbase vibe?


No longer have a QC but it is a pretty significant update. They still have a long way to go so my crystal ball says maybe end of 2022 or start of ‘23 is when they start to have most things in place, if they can deliver a computer editor this year.


----------



## Emperoff

I don't see anyone talking about these anymore. Some guys are using them live, but they don't seem to be catching up after the hypebubble exploded.


----------



## MetalDaze

I still have mine. I like the simplicity and it sounds good to me, but I'll admit that I'm fairly easy to please.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Emperoff said:


> I don't see anyone talking about these anymore. Some guys are using them live, but they don't seem to be catching up after the hypebubble exploded.


Same. QC is gone from my YouTube front page now. And I still haven’t seen one in the wild, let alone played one. 

I’m still very open to the idea of buying one. But they really need a computer editor and tone cloud. And ideally, the ability to load up my Nameless, Granophyre etc plugins on there. That was mentioned ages ago and I don’t think it’s come to fruition yet.


----------



## broangiel

Flappydoodle said:


> Same. QC is gone from my YouTube front page now. And I still haven’t seen one in the wild, let alone played one.
> 
> I’m still very open to the idea of buying one. But they really need a computer editor and tone cloud. And ideally, the ability to load up my Nameless, Granophyre etc plugins on there. That was mentioned ages ago and I don’t think it’s come to fruition yet.


There is a Tone Cloud where folks can share presets/captures. There isn't a marketplace yet, but the peer-to-peer sharing is there. NDSP has underdelivered in significant fashion, but the Tone Cloud is, indeed, up and running.


----------



## SamSam

I've used mine for all my rehearsals and once live when I got the opportunity to do so.

Tone wise I am pretty happy, I still do want the plugins to become usable as its still a key feature I expect and will use.

The narrow switches annoy the fuck out of my feet but otherwise I am happy with it.

I haven't used my FM3 I'm months. I may use it for my bass rig though.

Lots of shops are still back ordered as they trickle in. At least in Europe there is still demand from new customers.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I feel like this is going to go the way of the Eleven Rack or GSP1101, the hardware is just going to age out before they can get half the stuff they've promised and it'll be a footnote in NDSP history and they stick to plug-ins or they bring out a more fully baked product at some point in the future.


----------



## SamSam

It is possible although given how long Fractal and Line 6 have managed to maintain certain platforms I would imagine they can keep it going for at least 5 years. The hardware itself is high end. The development is the issue here.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> It is possible although given how long Fractal and Line 6 have managed to maintain certain platforms I would imagine they can keep it going for at least 5 years. The hardware itself is high end. The development is the issue here.



All it's going to take is Line 6 or Fractal bringing out another product generation before folks refer to the QC as "last generation". 

Bear in mind, I don't think the QC is bad, or deserves to fail, I just think it's getting far enough behind that it's outlook is seeming less rosy.


----------



## laxu

MaxOfMetal said:


> All it's going to take is Line 6 or Fractal bringing out another product generation before folks refer to the QC as "last generation".
> 
> Bear in mind, I don't think the QC is bad, or deserves to fail, I just think it's getting far enough behind that it's outlook is seeming less rosy.


I agree. At this rate it might end up as the "Wii U" of digital modelers. They still haven't delivered a lot of the features I expected by the end of the year. Was way too optimistic with that.

At the moment the QC still has a couple of advantages over the competition:

* Captures (sure, there's Kemper)
* Mic preamps (sure, Helix Floor has one)
* Form factor (nothing has quite the same amount of I/O and switching in this size)
* Touchscreen UI + knobs/switches
* Cab sims with virtual movable mics


----------



## MaxOfMetal

laxu said:


> I agree. At this rate it might end up as the "Wii U" of digital modelers. They still haven't delivered a lot of the features I expected by the end of the year. Was way too optimistic with that.
> 
> At the moment the QC still has a couple of advantages over the competition:
> 
> * Captures (sure, there's Kemper)
> * Mic preamps (sure, Helix Floor has one)
> * Form factor (nothing has quite the same amount of I/O and switching in this size)
> * Touchscreen UI + knobs/switches
> * Cab sims with virtual movable mics



Everyone who has one seems to really like it, or at least like it enough to stick with it, it just seems that no one is really converting to them, which is a bigger problem I think. 

I thought it was solid when I tried it out, but I wasn't exactly ready to get one, and I'm the perfect audience: someone ecosystem agnostic that plays predominantly digital. But it doesn't do anything my toaster, RaxeFx, or Stomp doesn't in a way that makes me want to replace or add.


----------



## mikah912

MaxOfMetal said:


> Everyone who has one seems to really like it, or at least like it enough to stick with it, it just seems that no one is really converting to them, which is a bigger problem I think.
> 
> I thought it was solid when I tried it out, but I wasn't exactly ready to get one, and I'm the perfect audience: someone ecosystem agnostic that plays predominantly digital. But it doesn't do anything my toaster, RaxeFx, or Stomp doesn't in a way that makes me want to replace or add.



If you're coming from a fully-formed ecosystem that has ample third-party content creators like Kemper, Fractal or Line 6....it's an adjustment. You're wholly reliant on the free Cortex Cloud to get you new stuff, and a LOT of it is unlabeled random junk.

That being said, there are some guys out there doing great work despite the lack of the marketplace. Live Ready Sound, Sweetwater (yep, THAT Sweetwater) Studios, Tone Junkies, Headfirst Amplification and even Rabea are some of the more prominent ones. And from what I can tell, Neural DSP is still selling pretty much every unit they can make. 

The good news is that there's ample firepower in the hardware to keep it from "aging out" before they get their promises together, a la GSP1101 or Eleven Rack. The other thing to keep it from meeting the fate of those platforms is the still-damn-good Capture functionality. 

I'm a platform-hopping fool having had Helix, Kemper and FM3 each more than once. Surprisingly...I can't bring myself to part with my QC, even with the blatant and disappointing overpromising and under-delivering. The form factor and workflow are really just kinda perfect for me.


----------



## olejason

I definitely agree on the development backlog starting to creep into concerning territory. Darkglass is sort of known for pushing out new iterations of pretty much everything to keep the hype train rolling and to fix bugs or address customer wishes. I think the Quad Cortex has some sustaining power due to the powerful hardware used but a new 'generation' from Line6 or Fractal might push their hand.


----------



## GunpointMetal

SamSam said:


> It is possible although given how long Fractal and Line 6 have managed to maintain certain platforms I would imagine they can keep it going for at least 5 years. The hardware itself is high end. The development is the issue here.


Biggest difference there is L6 and Fractal delivered a fully-baked product (with the exception of the FM3 headphone thing) and NDSP seems to have chucked out some hardware while barely hitting any of the major pre-release points (plugins, professional marketplace) as well as avoiding dealing with noted hardware issues in the first couple of runs, while still pumping out new plugins to sell. I'd be more annoyed had I spent $1800 on a device and then watched the company shill more software that was supposed to be able to be loaded on my hardware but still isn't capable yet.


----------



## broangiel

mikah912 said:


> And from what I can tell, Neural DSP is still selling pretty much every unit they can make.


Almost everyone is selling every unit they can make—because what can be made is hamstrung by supply chain shitstorms. This isn’t a strong indicator of success or a flex in this market.


----------



## mikah912

broangiel said:


> Almost everyone is selling every unit they can make—because what can be made is hamstrung by supply chain shitstorms. This isn’t a strong indicator of success or a flex in this market.



Not a flex, but the demand seems to have sustained from launch last year as far as anyone can tell. 

I'm not saying NDSP will never feel the pain of underdelivering on the development milestones they said would be available "at launch" or "shortly after launch". I'm simply saying it's not impacting sales measurably for the moment. Also, 1.3 has been a pretty well-received update - present company included.


----------



## broangiel

mikah912 said:


> Not a flex, but the demand seems to have sustained from launch last year as far as anyone can tell.
> 
> I'm not saying NDSP will never feel the pain of underdelivering on the development milestones they said would be available "at launch" or "shortly after launch". I'm simply saying it's not impacting sales measurably for the moment. Also, 1.3 has been a pretty well-received update - present company included.


There is literally no way you or I or anyone that’s not NDSP or a distributor can judge demand because we don’t know how many units are produced month to month or how that figure changes over time. 

All we see is “Out of Stock.” And again, in this market, that’s a pretty common scenario.


----------



## mikah912

broangiel said:


> There is literally no way you or I or anyone that’s not NDSP or a distributor can judge demand because we don’t know how many units are produced month to month or how that figure changes over time.
> 
> All we see is “Out of Stock.” And again, in this market, that’s a pretty common scenario.



No, of course not. What we do know is that they just recently passed the 10,000 QC sold in what will likely be the worst year of this unit's existence - the first. From here, the development will only grow and no new user will have a user experience as bad as what it was like in the 1.0/1.1/1.2 days.


----------



## broangiel

mikah912 said:


> No, of course not. What we do know is that they just recently passed the 10,000 QC sold in what will likely be the worst year of this unit's existence - the first. From here, the development will only grow and no new user will have a user experience as bad as what it was like in the 1.0/1.1/1.2 days.


Sure, but that’s different than “the demand has sustained” and more measurable than “they’re selling all they can make.” 

I’m sure the UX is fine and have no doubts it will get better—I certainly hope they won’t make it worse. My criticisms as a whole have been focused on what was promised vs what was delivered and the glacial development pace despite that gap. I’m not deriding the usability or tones or whatever.


----------



## mikah912

broangiel said:


> Sure, but that’s different than “the demand has sustained” and more measurable than “they’re selling all they can make.”
> 
> I’m sure the UX is fine and have no doubts it will get better—I certainly hope they won’t make it worse. My criticisms as a whole have been focused on what was promised vs what was delivered and the glacial development pace despite that gap. I’m not deriding the usability or tones or whatever.



All of those can be true at the same time, y' know. Anyway, it's all good. I'm no water carrier for NDSP, and absolutely agree that they should continue to get roasted on not delivering on what was promised every. single. day. until they make good. 

No amount of personal satisfaction with the unit will coerce me to let them off the hook regarding that.


----------



## broangiel

mikah912 said:


> All of those can be true at the same time, y' know.


I do  But only one of those three things (the 10kU sold) can be qualified by us outsiders. We can only speculate about demand and the number of units they can continue to build, and those two things are incredibly hard to judge in this market.


----------



## bmth4111

I bought the unit because I was super inspired to write more music with their plugins. They announced early on that the plug-in usage on qc was going to happen but it still hasn’t. My guess is that it will be one of the last things added.very sneaky of them to announce this feature so early.

At this point it feels like I’m waiting for them to update the unit to the point where I feel I have got my monies worth. I understand the plug-in team is separate from the hardware team, but it still feels like salt in the wound when big new plugins are released with features the qc doesn’t even have yet…

It’s really user friendly and I generally love it but it’s lacks in so many ways. 

The fact that the (pretty simple) looper was the bulk/star of this “huge update” was also ridiculous. all that time for a couple of basic feature updates.


----------



## lurè

The hype generated from their plugin has made initially the biggest impact on the preorders and sales.

People were expecting to play their plugins live and still hasn't happened yet and you're left with a unit that basically doesn't deliver anithyng new or better than other counterparts.


----------



## laxu

GunpointMetal said:


> Biggest difference there is L6 and Fractal delivered a fully-baked product (with the exception of the FM3 headphone thing) and NDSP seems to have chucked out some hardware while barely hitting any of the major pre-release points (plugins, professional marketplace) as well as avoiding dealing with noted hardware issues in the first couple of runs, while still pumping out new plugins to sell. I'd be more annoyed had I spent $1800 on a device and then watched the company shill more software that was supposed to be able to be loaded on my hardware but still isn't capable yet.


The Line6 Helix has received a massive list of new amp models, effects and whatnot over the years. Same for Fractal who have over a decade of development to fall back on rather than making things from scratch. So in that sense they are not comparable. People just forget about the past.

I don't get why people are up in arms about the plugins. I'm sure there are plenty of challenges porting plugins to a completely different CPU architecture and those who develop the VST plugins are most likely not the people with the knowhow about embedded DSP development.


----------



## RevDrucifer

laxu said:


> The Line6 Helix has received a massive list of new amp models, effects and whatnot over the years. Same for Fractal who have over a decade of development to fall back on rather than making things from scratch. So in that sense they are not comparable. People just forget about the past.
> 
> *I don't get why people are up in arms about the plugins. I'm sure there are plenty of challenges porting plugins to a completely different CPU architecture and those who develop the VST plugins are most likely not the people with the knowhow about embedded DSP development.*



That’s on NDSP/Doug for hyping it up and not delivering.


----------



## Tree

I don't really care about their proprietary amp models and whatever is on the QC currently, but regarding the plugins; is this supposed to be based on the licenses that you currently own? Or are they alleging that they will eventually just have all of their plugins loaded up and ready to go on the unit after some update(s)?

I haven't kept up with this at all as none of the demos I've heard made it seem like too much of an upgrade to what I have currently. Though, I would like to have the ability to have some of their plugins on the go sans-laptop.


----------



## RevDrucifer

(TGP members can skip this, you’ve all seen me say it over there)

I was initially interested in it because I thought it’d be cool to capture some of my buddy’s more rare amps, but at this point I’ve got zero faith in NDSP’s ability to deliver what they advertised. It’s at 11 months since they started shipping and the update they just put out is predominantly things that should have been in the unit when it started shipping. 

What gets me more than that is the outright bullshit/lies NDSP has pulled. In May of 2021 they stated on their website they “implemented” hybrid switching and it was obviously important enough to have someone write a blurb about it on their site, but when Doug was asked about it in Oct 2021 he straight up said “Haven’t even started working on it yet.” 

Their refusal to address the PSU/ground noise issues that are affecting a lot more than just a couple units is highly unappealing and it very much seems they’re hoping it gets brushed under the rug. They were sending out e-mails stating they would be shipping new PSU’s shortly and then went silent about it, not replying to people asking for an update. 

A few months back with one of the first updates, they pulled some “The update is going to be a few more days, but that’s ok because we’re rolling 1.1 into 1.2, so you’re really getting a bigger update as a result.” 

The lack of the ability for local file storage is absurd and while people have continuously said “There’s so much reliability in cloud-based storage it won’t be a problem”, the newest update has people on Discord trying to figure out what happened to their presets/captures because they can’t find them now. Having no desktop editor has the majority of the users keeping it on their desk with many buying a Morningstar MIDI controller to control the thing….kind of like they’ve had to buy a Cioks power supply to resolve the grounding issues. The “world’s most powerful floor based modeling unit” shouldn’t require anything but a guitar, a cable and a guitar player. 

Doug and Dan continuously used TGP to hype the unit up for a good year then the second it started selling they bailed and have not returned to answer any of their customer’s questions. 

It also makes no sense to me how they supposedly had all these captures and models ready to go pre-launch, but they still aren’t in the unit nearly a year later. 

They make great plugins but put the cart way before the horse with releasing this thing and it’s great that a lot of users are happy with being early adopters, but actions speak louder than hype and NDSP has not been able to meet their own hype as of yet.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Tree said:


> I don't really care about their proprietary amp models and whatever is on the QC currently, but regarding the plugins; is this supposed to be based on the licenses that you currently own? Or are they alleging that they will eventually just have all of their plugins loaded up and ready to go on the unit after some update(s)?
> 
> I haven't kept up with this at all as none of the demos I've heard made it seem like too much of an upgrade to what I have currently. Though, I would like to have the ability to have some of their plugins on the go sans-laptop.



They haven’t been entirely clear on how they’re going to integrate it. 

Pre-launch, people were asking Doug “Can you add this?” and he’d say “Yeah, I don’t see why not. I’ll check with the engineers”, or “Of course! We’re working on it now!”, writing a lot of checks they’ve been unable to cash since. If I remember right, this is where the whole thing about using the plugins in the unit started up. If it was mentioned in the original advertisements, I can’t remember anymore. From watching the main thread where Doug was promising the world to everyone, I got the idea that he didn’t know a whole lot about the process of actually integrating/coding this stuff and was relying on his staff to figure it out after he’d agree to it on TGP. 

Once the unit was released it turned into “Well, the amp models are already in the unit, so you can just manually recreate the plug-ins already.”, but with a lot of the effects from the plug-ins not existing in the unit, you can’t really do that.


----------



## GunpointMetal

laxu said:


> The Line6 Helix has received a massive list of new amp models, effects and whatnot over the years. Same for Fractal who have over a decade of development to fall back on rather than making things from scratch. So in that sense they are not comparable. People just forget about the past.
> 
> I don't get why people are up in arms about the plugins. I'm sure there are plenty of challenges porting plugins to a completely different CPU architecture and those who develop the VST plugins are most likely not the people with the knowhow about embedded DSP development.


That's true, but I don't remember Helix being void of any advertised features at launch and everything that has been added would be "extra" from the devices original function. NDSP is the one that chose to jump into the high-end hardware modeler market and right now the only real component they are competing in is advertising. And maybe profiling, since only one other device does that right now.

I'm far from "up in arms" overt he plugin porting, the cost:value ratio for the thing is not even close to where I would buy one right now. But if you're watching this market with interest, NDSP's inability to integrated well-hyped pre-launch features even after release does not instill confidence in either their hardware programming ability, or their dedication to the hardware.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Again, shitty timing. The AxeFx and Helix are getting pretty close to their regular/speculative hardware update time. 

Granted both Cliff and employee(s) from Line 6 have said as the latest are fairly future proof for now, I still think that should scare NDSP into putting a bit more work in. 

It was really stupid how they handled the plug-ins relative to the QC. 

The Kemper is notoriously long in the tooth, and gets a lot of shit for it, deservedly, and as time goes on it seems that's the closest competition. 

It just seems there was so much bravado coming off heels of Darkglass and the success of the plug-ins they sort of let it get out of hand.


----------



## broangiel

MaxOfMetal said:


> Again, shitty timing. The AxeFx and Helix are getting pretty close to their regular/speculative hardware update time.
> 
> Granted both Cliff and employee(s) from Line 6 have said as the latest are fairly future proof for now, I still think that should scare NDSP into putting a bit more work in.
> 
> It was really stupid how they handled the plug-ins relative to the QC.
> 
> The Kemper is notoriously long in the tooth, and gets a lot of shit for it, deservedly, and as time goes on it seems that's the closest competition.
> 
> It just seems there was so much bravado coming off heels of Darkglass and the success of the plug-ins they sort of let it get out of hand.


I would buy a modernized Kemper immediately. Give me a USB interface. Give me the ability to use multiple Profiles (OD + Amp, for example). Give me a more flexible signal chain (I could take or leave this tbh but I love the grid on the Axe Fx). That’s really all I’d want to see in a new unit. Day 1 purchase.


----------



## laxu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Again, shitty timing. The AxeFx and Helix are getting pretty close to their regular/speculative hardware update time.
> 
> Granted both Cliff and employee(s) from Line 6 have said as the latest are fairly future proof for now, I still think that should scare NDSP into putting a bit more work in.


I think we are still several years away from that based on the updates the Helix and Axe-Fx 3 are getting. Plus the lack of any significantly more powerful DSP chips on the market, at least at a reasonable cost. Next Line6 product could benefit from jumping to the same DSP chip the QC uses.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> I think we are still several years away from that based on the updates the Helix and Axe-Fx 3 are getting. Plus the lack of any significantly more powerful DSP chips on the market, at least at a reasonable cost. Next Line6 product could benefit from jumping to the same DSP chip the QC uses.



Would then become the most powerful floor processor in the market?


----------



## ArtDecade

Emperoff said:


> Would then become the most powerful floor processor in the market?



Clearly.


----------



## Elric

I have one; it's pretty f*cking great at this point. It's basically a floor based Kemper killer. I use it in favor of both my Axe III and FM3 most of the time. It's so easy to use and sounds as good for most of my fave tones. There is really not much it can't do now, with the latest firmware.

One Killer feature that no other unit really has and critics/non-owners do not understand: No f*cking around with IRs. The cabs sound great, there's a relly nice selection of both cabs and mics, and they are dead simple to use.

Last update filled out a lot of the FX which was a weak point for me. I'll be even more enthused when they get the data management stuff sorted, that's my next biggest gripe. That said, the bundled captures with presets and updated storage limits have helped ease some of the pain there.

People are hung up on the plugins and the original release list, which read like a wish list instead of an actual product spec; and yes, Neural absolutely mismanaged everyone's expectations. They were not even vaguely competent in that regard.

That said, the people waiting/crying for the plugs are goof balls, IMHO. That was always a post release thing and anyone with any sense would realize it is a huge development effort and is not going to happen until the original targets are sorted. The plugins are just a bunch of amp blocks and a smattering of models, no idea why people think there is something magical about them. The models and caps that are already there cover the bulk of this and kill for the most part.

If you have some magic preset you simply cannot live without on the plugin; capture the amp tone and build the FX around it. It's pretty trivial and the captures work great. I capped a number of Axe 3 amps/settings to port them to the QC and then I can integrate that with all the stuff in the QC and other captures. There's a ton of good captures on their cloud now. I DO think it was DUMB of Neural to promise this feature without even scoping it. I seriously think this may have happened when somene asked Doug C i they could put them on there and he just said "Sure we'll do that"; without any additional thought beyond thinking they'd get it sorted after the 1.0 release.

Anyway bottom line: If you think the product sucks or don't trust the company, by all means, continue not buying one. That's fair and fine by me. Not everyone has to love the product I own.

But a lot of the criticism is pretty weak after the last update and I'm now pretty confident this thing will be in a killer position by the end of the year even by most of the harsh critics' standards... and it is kind of a shame that it took a little while to get to this point because I think screwy 'hype tornado' around this thing affected the view of this product on the forums. Like I said, it is good enough now that my AxeFx is sitting idle. Many modeler owners are super territorial too; which does not help.

Anyway, there are a lot folks who are slagging it for stuff that is really not a big issue when you have used the device for a while. This is going to show up on a lot of touring rigs because it has a great form factor (heck add pedals for some of the missing stuff for right now), killer tones, and it can capture that tube rig back in the studio.


----------



## Tree

Elric said:


> I have one; it's pretty f*cking great at this point. It's basically a floor based Kemper killer. I use it in favor of both my Axe III and FM3 most of the time. It's so easy to use and sounds as good for most of my fave tones. There is really not much it can't do now, with the latest firmware.
> 
> One Killer feature that no other unit really has and critics/non-owners do not understand: No f*cking around with IRs. The cabs sound great, there's a relly nice selection of both cabs and mics, and they are dead simple to use.
> 
> Last update filled out a lot of the FX which was a weak point for me. I'll be even more enthused when they get the data management stuff sorted, that's my next biggest gripe. That said, the bundled captures with presets and updated storage limits have helped ease some of the pain there.
> 
> People are hung up on the plugins and the original release list, which read like a wish list instead of an actual product spec; and yes, Neural absolutely mismanaged everyone's expectations. They were not even vaguely competent in that regard.
> 
> That said, the people waiting/crying for the plugs are goof balls, IMHO. That was always a post release thing and anyone with any sense would realize it is a huge development effort and is not going to happen until the original targets are sorted. The plugins are just a bunch of amp blocks and a smattering of models, no idea why people think there is something magical about them. The models and caps that are already there cover the bulk of this and kill for the most part.
> 
> If you have some magic preset you simply cannot live without on the plugin; capture the amp tone and build the FX around it. It's pretty trivial and the captures work great. I capped a number of Axe 3 amps/settings to port them to the QC and then I can integrate that with all the stuff in the QC and other captures. There's a ton of good captures on their cloud now. I DO think it was DUMB of Neural to promise this feature without even scoping it. I seriously think this may have happened when somene asked Doug C i they could put them on there and he just said "Sure we'll do that"; without any additional thought beyond thinking they'd get it sorted after the 1.0 release.
> 
> Anyway bottom line: If you think the product sucks or don't trust the company, by all means, continue not buying one. That's fair and fine by me. Not everyone has to love the product I own.
> 
> But a lot of the criticism is pretty weak after the last update and I'm now pretty confident this thing will be in a killer position by the end of the year even by most of the harsh critics' standards... and it is kind of a shame that it took a little while to get to this point because I think screwy 'hype tornado' around this thing affected the view of this product on the forums. Like I said, it is good enough now that my AxeFx is sitting idle. Many modeler owners are super territorial too; which does not help.
> 
> Anyway, there are a lot folks who are slagging it for stuff that is really not a big issue when you have used the device for a while. This is going to show up on a lot of touring rigs because it has a great form factor (heck add pedals for some of the missing stuff for right now), killer tones, and it can capture that tube rig back in the studio.



Is the tone capture really strong enough with what they have available to consider it a true Kemper killer/floor Kemper? I guess, what I'm really asking is:

Say I want a dead on capture of an Engl Savage, or a Krank Rev1 (two amps I think most modelers are missing). Will using the capture utility be able to replicate it well enough that I wouldn't be missing the amp if I no longer had access to it?

I always felt like the tone match on the Axe Fx was _good enough, _but still not exactly what I wanted, so I've been under the impression that it's more or less the same thing here on the QC. If it's as solid as you seem to be saying that may have my interest. I love having new fancy toys/amps/models to fuss with, but I also want some faithful recreations of certain rigs.


----------



## laxu

Tree said:


> Is the tone capture really strong enough with what they have available to consider it a true Kemper killer/floor Kemper? I guess, what I'm really asking is:
> 
> Say I want a dead on capture of an Engl Savage, or a Krank Rev1 (two amps I think most modelers are missing). Will using the capture utility be able to replicate it well enough that I wouldn't be missing the amp if I no longer had access to it?
> 
> I always felt like the tone match on the Axe Fx was _good enough, _but still not exactly what I wanted, so I've been under the impression that it's more or less the same thing here on the QC. If it's as solid as you seem to be saying that may have my interest. I love having new fancy toys/amps/models to fuss with, but I also want some faithful recreations of certain rigs.


I captured my Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL and Victory VC35 heads with the Quad Cortex and felt both were very close to how the real things sound, at those specific settings. I would have been totally ok with using them as a portable substitute of hauling the amps. The capture was definitely one of the features that impressed me on the QC.

The Axe-Fx is vastly superior for effects though.


----------



## Tree

laxu said:


> I captured my Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL and Victory VC35 heads with the Quad Cortex and felt both were very close to how the real things sound, at those specific settings. I would have been totally ok with using them as a portable substitute of hauling the amps. The capture was definitely one of the features that impressed me on the QC.
> 
> The Axe-Fx is vastly superior for effects though.



Thanks for the input. How is it with tweaking the settings? I notice you mentioned that it's very close "at those specific settings". Do the eq and drive parameters kind of take on their own character that's inherent to the QC, rather than how the amps would behave? I really don't do too much with effects besides the typical reverb and delays. If I get adventurous I'm usually just dicking around creating weird sounds.


----------



## Elric

laxu said:


> I captured my Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL and Victory VC35 heads with the Quad Cortex and felt both were very close to how the real things sound, at those specific settings. I would have been totally ok with using them as a portable substitute of hauling the amps. The capture was definitely one of the features that impressed me on the QC.
> 
> The Axe-Fx is vastly superior for effects though.


Yes, this. IMHO. I have tons of analog drives and a fair number of amps. The capture is seriously legit. As LaXu notes it is great for capturing your own stuff; so you can dial it right where you normally would And bang you have a portable version of that tone that is extremely good. 

I personally would never consider a Kemper now that this thing exists. It is so usable and powerful and the signal path is so flexible.

The tone stack on it is helpful but it is not gonna emulate the amp. It’s gonna be more like an EQ. But that’s perfectly understandable. I don’t use it much, especially on my own caps.


----------



## laxu

Tree said:


> Thanks for the input. How is it with tweaking the settings? I notice you mentioned that it's very close "at those specific settings". Do the eq and drive parameters kind of take on their own character that's inherent to the QC, rather than how the amps would behave? I really don't do too much with effects besides the typical reverb and delays. If I get adventurous I'm usually just dicking around creating weird sounds.


Turning down the gain on the captures works just like the amp in my experience if the capture is done correctly (which seems to be mostly about getting the right input/output levels when making it). The capture block EQ does not work like the amp EQ and if you use it then the capture is no longer accurate. But that does not mean it cannot sound good. It's not about character but the EQ just operates on different frequencies.


----------



## Tree

Good to know! If these ever become available again (ain’t no way I’m paying what these are going for on Reverb and the like) I’ll keep an eye out. 

Also, sorry to pester you both further, but you have first hand experience and I don’t 
Would you say the capture block on the QC is a step up from the tone match available on Fractal’s offerings? 


Elric said:


> Yes, this. IMHO. I have tons of analog drives and a fair number of amps. The capture is seriously legit. As LaXu notes it is great for capturing your own stuff; so you can dial it right where you normally would And bang you have a portable version of that tone that is extremely good.
> 
> I personally would never consider a Kemper now that this thing exists. It is so usable and powerful and the signal path is so flexible.
> 
> The tone stack on it is helpful but it is not gonna emulate the amp. It’s gonna be more like an EQ. But that’s perfectly understandable. I don’t use it much, especially on my own caps.





laxu said:


> Turning down the gain on the captures works just like the amp in my experience if the capture is done correctly (which seems to be mostly about getting the right input/output levels when making it). The capture block EQ does not work like the amp EQ and if you use it then the capture is no longer accurate. But that does not mean it cannot sound good. It's not about character but the EQ just operates on different frequencies.


----------



## laxu

Tree said:


> Good to know! If these ever become available again (ain’t no way I’m paying what these are going for on Reverb and the like) I’ll keep an eye out.
> 
> Also, sorry to pester you both further, but you have first hand experience and I don’t
> Would you say the capture block on the QC is a step up from the tone match available on Fractal’s offerings?


Different tools for different things. I only have a FM3 which doesn't have a tone match and I never used it on the Axe-Fx 2. Plus I've never owned an amp that is directly modeled on the Fractal.


----------



## Elric

Tree said:


> Also, sorry to pester you both further, but you have first hand experience and I don’t
> Would you say the capture block on the QC is a step up from the tone match available on Fractal’s offerings?


Yes, big time, they are not even really comparable, IMHO.


----------



## DarthV

Elric said:


> Yes, this. IMHO. I have tons of analog drives and a fair number of amps. The capture is seriously legit. As LaXu notes it is great for capturing your own stuff; so you can dial it right where you normally would And bang you have a portable version of that tone that is extremely good.
> 
> I personally would never consider a Kemper now that this thing exists. It is so usable and powerful and the signal path is so flexible.
> 
> The tone stack on it is helpful but it is not gonna emulate the amp. It’s gonna be more like an EQ. But that’s perfectly understandable. I don’t use it much, especially on my own caps.



The Kemper is still ahead on variety of effects, but coming from someone that bought a Kemper in 2012, I understand how features get better over time. The mix of modelling, capturing and way more way more effects blocks/routing would make me choose the QC over the Kemper. Which reminds me, I have to factory reset my Kemper and get it up for sale


----------



## Tree

Elric said:


> Yes, big time, they are not even really comparable, IMHO.



Definitely good to know. I wrote it off early on expecting it to more or less be the same thing, which has always seemed lame to me. If I wanted EQ corrected “tone matching” I would just load up a DAW and Ozone. 



DarthV said:


> The Kemper is still ahead on variety of effects, but coming from someone that bought a Kemper in 2012, I understand how features get better over time. The mix of modelling, capturing and way more way more effects blocks/routing would make me choose the QC over the Kemper. Which reminds me, I have to factory reset my Kemper and get it up for sale



Obviously the best answer is for me to just own them all, but all these responses do have me suddenly GASing. I am really happy with my HX Stomp, it has no shortage of tonal possibilities, but I do like having my cake and eating it as well.


----------



## laxu

Tree said:


> Obviously the best answer is for me to just own them all, but all these responses do have me suddenly GASing. I am really happy with my HX Stomp, it has no shortage of tonal possibilities, but I do like having my cake and eating it as well.


Having owned the Helix Floor, QC and currently owning the FM3, ultimately they can all do a lot of the same stuff with their unique pros and cons. I really wanted to like the QC but at release it was just too half-baked to keep and I feel that's still the case. Next year around this time might be a different situation.

I wouldn't buy the QC if your intention is to just use other people's captures. There's a lot of them of varying quality and while it's initially a lot of fun to try amps and overdrives that are not modeled on any platform, the appeal wears off and you settle on some that work for you. Capturing is most useful if you already own a pile of tube amps and want to cram a facsimile of them at specific settings into one portable box. Keep your expensive amps at home/studio/practice space, bring a nice poweramp and cab and use the captures instead.


----------



## DarthV

laxu said:


> Having owned the Helix Floor, QC and currently owning the FM3, ultimately they can all do a lot of the same stuff with their unique pros and cons. I really wanted to like the QC but at release it was just too half-baked to keep and I feel that's still the case. Next year around this time might be a different situation.
> 
> I wouldn't buy the QC if your intention is to just use other people's captures. There's a lot of them of varying quality and while it's initially a lot of fun to try amps and overdrives that are not modeled on any platform, the appeal wears off and you settle on some that work for you. Capturing is most useful if you already own a pile of tube amps and want to cram a facsimile of them at specific settings into one portable box. Keep your expensive amps at home/studio/practice space, bring a nice poweramp and cab and use the captures instead.



I love the factory jp-2c captures and can't wait for them to add the full models for IIc+ or(and??) JP2C. There have been some great captures going up recently, I need to try some of the Revv ones.


----------



## DarthV

Tree said:


> Obviously the best answer is for me to just own them all, but all these responses do have me suddenly GASing. I am really happy with my HX Stomp, it has no shortage of tonal possibilities, but I do like having my cake and eating it as well.



Well, own both the KPA & QC then thought about an HX stomp for lunchtime noodling at work  Even with my out of the way office, I don't think I could get away with bringing in the Mark V25 & 2x12 cab. Hrmmm


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I'm looking for a small floor unit to go in my gig bag (or small rucksack). I own a AxeFx3 but don't want to take it out. with FC6 etc 

Should I be looking at the QC yet or just stick with fractal?

Im not sure the hype train has stopped yet from what I read in the last page or so


----------



## budda

The Thing Upstairs said:


> I'm looking for a small floor unit to go in my gig bag (or small rucksack). I own a AxeFx3 but don't want to take it out. with FC6 etc
> 
> Should I be looking at the QC yet or just stick with fractal?
> 
> Im not sure the hype train has stopped yet from what I read in the last page or so


Why dont you want to take the axe fx out? How minimal are you looking to go?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The Thing Upstairs said:


> I'm looking for a small floor unit to go in my gig bag (or small rucksack). I own a AxeFx3 but don't want to take it out. with FC6 etc
> 
> Should I be looking at the QC yet or just stick with fractal?
> 
> Im not sure the hype train has stopped yet from what I read in the last page or so



Sounds like an FM3 would be the way to go. Half the price of a QC and you'll be able to bring over your presets. 

Unless you want to mess with something new/different, which then I'd probably recommend a HX Stomp.

You really got to _want_ a QC for it to be the best option.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

budda said:


> Why dont you want to take the axe fx out? How minimal are you looking to go?


My AF3 is in a rack and I'd need to carry the FC6 too. I don't want to disconnect it to take it out. 

I'm looking for something I can take to jam with a mate so smaller than a helix. I'd say something Mac sized would be good.



MaxOfMetal said:


> Sounds like an FM3 would be the way to go. Half the price of a QC and you'll be able to bring over your presets.
> 
> Unless you want to mess with something new/different, which then I'd probably recommend a HX Stomp.
> 
> You really got to _want_ a QC for it to be the best option.



I'm in UK so the FM3 is only a few hundred cheaper after importing it.

The appeal of the QC is that it's new and different but it looks part baked and developed at a much slower pace than I am used to with fractal (which is anything but part baked).

If I buy the FM 3, I know what I'm getting but then if I buy the QC I'm able to try something new that might just (one day far far in the future) be...... better *

#heretic

*I don't want to start a modeller war, that's said tongue in cheek. I don't believe one will be better than the other, just different.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The Thing Upstairs said:


> My AF3 is in a rack and I'd need to carry the FC6 too. I don't want to disconnect it to take it out.
> 
> I'm looking for something I can take to jam with a mate so smaller than a helix. I'd say something Mac sized would be good.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in UK so the FM3 is only a few hundred cheaper after importing it.
> 
> The appeal of the QC is that it's new and different but it looks part baked and developed at a much slower pace than I am used to with fractal (which is anything but part baked).
> 
> If I buy the FM 3, I know what I'm getting but then if I buy the QC I'm able to try something new that might just (one day far far in the future) be...... better *
> 
> #heretic
> 
> *I don't want to start a modeller war, that's said tongue in cheek. I don't believe one will be better than the other, just different.



I think it's less that it's "half baked" more that prior to release a lot of stuff was promised, and there's still a lot left to deliver. I didn't get a sense that it was really "missing" anything when I tried it and tons of folks are happy with it, so if you want someone to just tell you to go grab one I'll be happy to do so. 

Go buy a QC right now, because it's different, not a ton more expensive, and maybe it'll be even better later.


----------



## laxu

The Thing Upstairs said:


> The appeal of the QC is that it's new and different but it looks part baked and developed at a much slower pace than I am used to with fractal (which is anything but part baked).
> 
> If I buy the FM 3, I know what I'm getting but then if I buy the QC I'm able to try something new that might just (one day far far in the future) be...... better *


There is an argument for familiarity. You know how to work the Axe-Fx 3 to your liking so FM3 will be easy to adapt to.

That said, the QC is very user friendly from the front panel and having more built in switches and knobs is a big plus. To me the FM3 at minimum needs a couple of extra switches which you can add fairly cheap.

The QC switch spacing is a bit tight so depending on how big feet you have that may or may not be an issue. I had no problem stomping it but definitely needed to be more deliberate about looking before stomping.

Featurewise the QC has gotten better but is still far away from Fractal. You are covered for amps and overdrives as you can just use captures for more but the effects section is something you can’t do anything other than wait for more updates. So depends on how big an fx user you are.

QC might have a benefit of being available locally from a store so you can easily try and return if it doesn’t work for you.


----------



## budda

Hx stomp?


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

thanks chaps. At the moment, I'm leaning slightly toward QC as it's very easy to tweak on the move. I know I can setup PP on FM3 though too.



budda said:


> Hx stomp?



Hadn't considered, will take a look - thanks!


----------



## Flappydoodle

The Thing Upstairs said:


> My AF3 is in a rack and I'd need to carry the FC6 too. I don't want to disconnect it to take it out.
> 
> I'm looking for something I can take to jam with a mate so smaller than a helix. I'd say something Mac sized would be good.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in UK so the FM3 is only a few hundred cheaper after importing it.
> 
> The appeal of the QC is that it's new and different but it looks part baked and developed at a much slower pace than I am used to with fractal (which is anything but part baked).
> 
> If I buy the FM 3, I know what I'm getting but then if I buy the QC I'm able to try something new that might just (one day far far in the future) be...... better *
> 
> #heretic
> 
> *I don't want to start a modeller war, that's said tongue in cheek. I don't believe one will be better than the other, just different.


I'm looking at FM3 (or FM9) vs Quad Cortex too.

I'm leaning towards FM3. Fractal simply has a way larger user base, a much more experienced company backing it. That means more presets, better support, better community etc. It's been built up over many years, and tons of major artists use their stuff live and in the studio. The desktop editor is great too, and QC doesn't have one yet, as far as I know. And finally, finding a QC is difficult, as is FM9. 

I think that the touch screen and twisty dial knobs are very alluring, but FM3 is giving you the same flagship tones and effects, and I think the form factor is still good enough to get 95% of things done.


----------



## profwoot

Flappydoodle said:


> I'm looking at FM3 (or FM9) vs Quad Cortex too.
> 
> I'm leaning towards FM3. Fractal simply has a way larger user base, a much more experienced company backing it. That means more presets, better support, better community etc. It's been built up over many years, and tons of major artists use their stuff live and in the studio. The desktop editor is great too, and QC doesn't have one yet, as far as I know. And finally, finding a QC is difficult, as is FM9.
> 
> I think that the touch screen and twisty dial knobs are very alluring, but FM3 is giving you the same flagship tones and effects, and I think the form factor is still good enough to get 95% of things done.



I'm weighing options similarly, and yeah the FM9 is probably a better comparison. I might be leaning that direction if there were any. Anybody know when FM9s are expected to be available?

FM3 is same thing minus some processing power, but how much do y'all FM3 owners lament having only 3 buttons? I don't play out so maybe it's fine?

I also hadn't realized QCs are not really available at Sweetwater. That does tend to point toward FM3


----------



## budda

grab a morningstar MC6 and dont sweat the 3 buttons


----------



## budda

edit: laggy today


----------



## laxu

profwoot said:


> I'm weighing options similarly, and yeah the FM9 is probably a better comparison. I might be leaning that direction if there were any. Anybody know when FM9s are expected to be available?
> 
> FM3 is same thing minus some processing power, but how much do y'all FM3 owners lament having only 3 buttons? I don't play out so maybe it's fine?


FM9 is going to be hard to get. Fractal has difficulty getting the parts needed so you will probably be looking until summer or fall to get one if you are not already on the wait list.

FM3 switching is definitely limiting but you can add a cheap 2 button switch to it to expand it a bit. For home use you will be fine if you configure e.g hold functions to access more scenes. Each footswitch can be configured many ways as there are multiple layers of functionality available.


----------



## Emperoff

If the FM3 wasn't so expensive in Europe I'd have like two of them . It's not just expensive, but limited availability keeps used prices at retail level or sometimes even more.

I can get away with 3 buttons just fine, since each one can have an alternative version. I do that on my Boss MS-3 and I find myself wondering what to do with the remaining two switches.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> If the FM3 wasn't so expensive in Europe I'd have like two of them . It's not just expensive, but limited availability keeps used prices at retail level or sometimes even more.
> 
> I can get away with 3 buttons just fine, since each one can have an alternative version. I do that on my Boss MS-3 and I find myself wondering what to do with the remaining two switches.


Here in Finland they seem to sell around 1100 euros (new price is 1349 + shipping at G66) but they are definitely rare, I think I have seen like two or three for sale in a year's time and bought one of those.

I think two would be just annoying to manage because FM3-Edit does not support multiple devices. You can use Axe-Edit/FM3-Edit/FM9-Edit at the same time for each device but two of the same model needs you to plug and unplug USB cables or turn off one device. I wish they merged them all together into one app with multiple device support.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> Here in Finland they seem to sell around 1100 euros (new price is 1349 + shipping at G66) but they are definitely rare, I think I have seen like two or three for sale in a year's time and bought one of those.
> 
> I think two would be just annoying to manage because FM3-Edit does not support multiple devices. You can use Axe-Edit/FM3-Edit/FM9-Edit at the same time for each device but two of the same model needs you to plug and unplug USB cables or turn off one device. I wish they merged them all together into one app with multiple device support.



I was merely exaggerating... Probably . Even then I wouldn't use them at the same time. I tend to leave the backline for each of my bands at their respective rehearsal space. So I have several rigs ready to go.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

There are a couple of used FM3s being sold used in the UK at the moment. For the asking prices I would buy new - G66 has stock and for what it is, the FM3 is still a decent price.

FM9 is Q422 in EU I think. Fractal want to polish it before it comes further afield. NDSP take note.

I ordered a QC - I've only a few hours in it so far just using everything stock through monitors. I've not used any of their captures or captured my own kit. I'm keeping it pristine as I'm viewing this as a try before I buy.

As a platform, it still has work to do, basics like editor missing, fewer effects than fractal and not quite at the same level as fractal. There are bugs, the occasional screen lag etc but not too bad at all.

I love a parallel London plate with a delay in the fractal going into my stock studio reverb (mix 10%, size .6). Not quite there with the QC but soo close. As much as I've just criticised their effects, please take this in the context of cork sniffing. They are very good.

I am genuinely blown away with the amp modelling. The sound is spot on but the feel - that has surprised me. Comparing their models to my real amps and it is more than close enough.

The cab section for me knocks it out of the park. I have an aversion to IRs, they're very much like marmite for me. I just chuck in the Zilla 412 they have and it sounds and feels close to my 212.

Being a fractal fanboi, I have a bias toward fractal and toward real amps. The QC has really challenged my bias.

Hurry the F up with the editor NDSP. What is the point of a floor unit that has to be on the desk for editing - we're not all 18 and bendy FFS!


----------



## broangiel

The Thing Upstairs said:


> Fractal want to polish it before it comes further afield. NDSP take note.


It's more like, Fractal can't build more FM9's due to semiconductor shortages. In comparison to the FM3 launch, this has been much smoother and doesn't require as much polish.

That said, Is there anything you feel needs polishing? Mine functions and sounds just fine. I'm eager to see my FM9 get up to par with my Axe III with the new goodies Cliff has added in recent FWs, but other than that, the FM9 is comparable to whatever FW the Axe III was running when the FM9 launched. (I think that makes sense...)


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

broangiel said:


> It's more like, Fractal can't build more FM9's due to semiconductor shortages. In comparison to the FM3 launch, this has been much smoother and doesn't require as much polish.
> 
> That said, Is there anything you feel needs polishing? Mine functions and sounds just fine. I'm eager to see my FM9 get up to par with my Axe III with the new goodies Cliff has added in recent FWs, but other than that, the FM9 is comparable to whatever FW the Axe III was running when the FM9 launched. (I think that makes sense...)


Fair point - I'd forgotten the FM3 launch and was thinking more AF3 as that's what I own. 

In terms of polish, there are a few things off the top of my head. 

An editor
The knobs lining up with the display
Reverbs (and other effects) that rival my favourites in axefx such as London plate, north church etc
The ability to be able to push and hold so I can access the looper from within a scene - I do this on my AF3 by pushing and holding one of the buttons to change to the looper layout. I haven't found a way to do this yet\
Hybrid switching - haven't figured out if this is possible yet
Can a single expression be used to control two different effects on a per scene basis? I haven't figured this out yet either
Noise 

Just a few things, I'm sure there's more if I really thought about it. I'm sure it'll come in time.

From a sound and feel perspective, I think it's an excellent. The feel especially so.


----------



## laxu

The Thing Upstairs said:


> FM9 is Q422 in EU I think. Fractal want to polish it before it comes further afield. NDSP take note.
> 
> I ordered a QC - I've only a few hours in it so far just using everything stock through monitors. I've not used any of their captures or captured my own kit. I'm keeping it pristine as I'm viewing this as a try before I buy.
> 
> As a platform, it still has work to do, basics like editor missing, fewer effects than fractal and not quite at the same level as fractal. There are bugs, the occasional screen lag etc but not too bad at all.
> 
> I love a parallel London plate with a delay in the fractal going into my stock studio reverb (mix 10%, size .6). Not quite there with the QC but soo close. As much as I've just criticised their effects, please take this in the context of cork sniffing. They are very good.
> 
> I am genuinely blown away with the amp modelling. The sound is spot on but the feel - that has surprised me. Comparing their models to my real amps and it is more than close enough.
> 
> The cab section for me knocks it out of the park. I have an aversion to IRs, they're very much like marmite for me. I just chuck in the Zilla 412 they have and it sounds and feels close to my 212.
> 
> Being a fractal fanboi, I have a bias toward fractal and toward real amps. The QC has really challenged my bias.
> 
> Hurry the F up with the editor NDSP. What is the point of a floor unit that has to be on the desk for editing - we're not all 18 and bendy FFS!


They simply cannot make and deliver the FM9s because of component shortages. They've said so on their forums. 

Meanwhile the FM9 2.0 firmware has been waiting for a new beta for a long time so I assume they have run into some severe bugs with it considering the equivalent fw for the FM3 was already released.

I can agree with your corksniffing about the QC effects. Some of them are equal, some of them are worse compared to both Line6 Helix and Fractal.

If you own any real amps, try capturing them. It's a killer feature.

Due to the form factor of the QC I think just putting it on a desk was a perfectly fine workflow in absence of a computer editor. While a computer editor is something they should put out sooner than later, the user editing experience from the front panel is really nice.

I think you can do some very convoluted version of hybrid switching by basically utilising the MIDI features of the QC and mapping those to the footswitches. I saw some video about it on YT but I don't understand what is so difficult about just releasing a feature they hyped initially but have since simply removed it from their website. It would add a ton of usability to the unit and should not be that complicated to implement either. Even better would be just make it possible for you to map the footswitches any way you like as I see no technical problem with that.


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## Elric

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sounds like an FM3 would be the way to go. Half the price of a QC and you'll be able to bring over your presets.
> 
> Unless you want to mess with something new/different, which then I'd probably recommend a HX Stomp.
> 
> You really got to _want_ a QC for it to be the best option.


@The Thing Upstairs

Own both an FM3 and a QC… If they are close in price in your part of the world, I’d go QC if you are willing to tolerate that it is still under development. It is highly usable with the current firmware. The FM3 is hamstrung by the UI and 3 buttons; it is also a bit under powered. The QC’s limitations are with the current software version but the hardware slays. The DSP power feels more on par with the Axe III than the FM3, you can’t fix that with a FW update.

I am a huge Fractal fan. I own an Axe II and an Axe III as well as the FM3. But the QC kicks all kinds of a**; too. A lot of people just repeat negative stuff they have heard about it, a lot of which has been addressed with the February FW update. The captures are insane. It is like a Kemper from the future or something.

Use it more than either my FM3 or Axe III. I’d absolutely trade my FM3 for a QC straight up if someone wanted too, so if the costs are close, I’d recommend one for sure.


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## Emperoff

I'd buy a QC at half the buttons and half the price


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## MaxOfMetal

Elric said:


> @The Thing Upstairs
> 
> Own both an FM3 and a QC… If they are close in price in your part of the world, I’d go QC if you are willing to tolerate that it is still under development. It is highly usable with the current firmware. The FM3 is hamstrung by the UI and 3 buttons; it is also a bit under powered. The QC’s limitations are with the current software version but the hardware slays. The DSP power feels more on par with the Axe III than the FM3, you can’t fix that with a FW update.
> 
> I am a huge Fractal fan. I own an Axe II and an Axe III as well as the FM3. But the QC kicks all kinds of a**; too. A lot of people just repeat negative stuff they have heard about it, a lot of which has been addressed with the February FW update. The captures are insane. It is like a Kemper from the future or something.
> 
> Use it more than either my FM3 or Axe III. I’d absolutely trade my FM3 for a QC straight up if someone wanted too, so if the costs are close, I’d recommend one for sure.



I've used the QC about a dozen times now, and pretty much can whenever I want. 

I just haven't been blown away compared to any of the other modelers or profilers. I have a few Fractal products and a toaster. 

Still great on its own, but I haven't been blown away like you hear from folks. Different strokes and all that.


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## The Thing Upstairs

laxu said:


> They simply cannot make and deliver the FM9s because of component shortages. They've said so on their forums.
> 
> Meanwhile the FM9 2.0 firmware has been waiting for a new beta for a long time so I assume they have run into some severe bugs with it considering the equivalent fw for the FM3 was already released.
> 
> I can agree with your corksniffing about the QC effects. Some of them are equal, some of them are worse compared to both Line6 Helix and Fractal.
> 
> If you own any real amps, try capturing them. It's a killer feature.
> 
> Due to the form factor of the QC I think just putting it on a desk was a perfectly fine workflow in absence of a computer editor. While a computer editor is something they should put out sooner than later, the user editing experience from the front panel is really nice.
> 
> I think you can do some very convoluted version of hybrid switching by basically utilising the MIDI features of the QC and mapping those to the footswitches. I saw some video about it on YT but I don't understand what is so difficult about just releasing a feature they hyped initially but have since simply removed it from their website. It would add a ton of usability to the unit and should not be that complicated to implement either. Even better would be just make it possible for you to map the footswitches any way you like as I see no technical problem with that.


What I really need right now is a Leon Todd of the QC world 



Elric said:


> @The Thing Upstairs
> 
> Own both an FM3 and a QC… If they are close in price in your part of the world, I’d go QC if you are willing to tolerate that it is still under development. It is highly usable with the current firmware. The FM3 is hamstrung by the UI and 3 buttons; it is also a bit under powered. The QC’s limitations are with the current software version but the hardware slays. The DSP power feels more on par with the Axe III than the FM3, you can’t fix that with a FW update.
> 
> I am a huge Fractal fan. I own an Axe II and an Axe III as well as the FM3. But the QC kicks all kinds of a**; too. A lot of people just repeat negative stuff they have heard about it, a lot of which has been addressed with the February FW update. The captures are insane. It is like a Kemper from the future or something.
> 
> Use it more than either my FM3 or Axe III. I’d absolutely trade my FM3 for a QC straight up if someone wanted too, so if the costs are close, I’d recommend one for sure.


ive picked up a QC and own a axefx3. You’re on the money above, I’ll admit to being very impressed.

I’ve tried the factory captures and they sound great but have spent most of my time with the models. Very, very good. 
what’s held me back on the captures is that they capture the signal chain at a point in time. When I owned a KPA, I had some amazing captures but if you stray too far from the capture point, it would go a bit sideways. I need to get past that and do some captures of my amps.

@laxu no fans! it doesn’t even seem to get warm


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## broangiel

The Thing Upstairs said:


> What I really need right now is a Leon Todd of the QC world


Might want to hang out on TGP, if you can stand it. The QC Faithful are much more active over there, relative to SSO. The Discord may be a good resource too.


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## The Thing Upstairs

broangiel said:


> Might want to hang out on TGP, if you can stand it. The QC Faithful are much more active over there, relative to SSO. The Discord may be a good resource too.


Thanks - will check it out


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## The Thing Upstairs

So, had the QC a couple of weeks now, still enjoying it. 

Question for other users on noise. How do you find the hiss when using high gain amps? I'm finding I have to use a noise gate whereas I don't have to on my axefx or real amps.

I've contacted NDSP and they say its normal which surprised me.


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## Emperoff

The Thing Upstairs said:


> So, had the QC a couple of weeks now, still enjoying it.
> 
> Question for other users on noise. How do you find the hiss when using high gain amps? I'm finding I have to use a noise gate whereas I don't have to on my axefx or real amps.
> 
> I've contacted NDSP and they say its normal which surprised me.



Apparently its power supply is very noisy, so you might want to look into that.


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## The Thing Upstairs

Emperoff said:


> Apparently its power supply is very noisy, so you might want to look into that.



hmmm…. overlooked that the axefx by default has a gate on the input. Turning it off, the axefx has slightly less noise through studio monitors. I don’t really want to drop cash on a new power supply if I can avoid it.

what QC gate do you folks use? I’m mostly using the smart gate but find the decay a bit stuttery ( compared to a Zuul or decimation)


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