# Does Adele sing consistently flat?



## frogman81 (Jan 3, 2018)

Sitting at my local breakfast joint and Adele was playing. Not to knock her obvious technical abilities/success/songwriting, but from her very first single, her voice has been a bit like nails on a chalkboard to me. I think it’s because she often ventures slightly flat (to my ears). My theory is that the producers keep her takes because it adds a bit of rawness/vulnerability to the tracks. Any thoughts?


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## bostjan (Jan 3, 2018)

Everything is autotune these days. Maybe she's just not autotuned like everything else, or...this is way out on a limb, but maybe she's autotuned into key then reintonated a few cents flat to make her sound human in a robotic sort of way.

Personally, out of today's music, I prefer her stuff to the rest of her genre, but I am exposed to a lot of music where things are not all snapped 100% to 12-equally divided octave tones. I love listening to sitar being played with rock band, even though the damn thing will never be in tune with everything else, or microtonal music where tones are not at all like you hear on the radio, because, personally, I think 12-EDO, which has taken over >99.9999% of western music in a very aggressive way, is just one pallette of tones out of an infinite continuum.


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## jwade (Jan 3, 2018)

I find that she sounds really nasal to my ears, which often sounds flat/off.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 3, 2018)

at least she can actually sing her songs live, unlike mariah carey, who couldn't sing her own songs or the fucking national anthem correctly a couple of years back.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Jan 3, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> at least she can actually sing her songs live, unlike mariah carey, who couldn't sing her own songs or the fucking national anthem correctly a couple of years back.



Mariah Carey had one of the best pop voices in the world at one stage(she could sing in 5 octaves :O), just because she doesnt give a crap anymore doesnt mean she was never capable.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 3, 2018)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Mariah Carey had one of the best pop voices in the world at one stage(she could sing in 5 octaves :O), just because she doesnt give a crap anymore doesnt mean she was never capable.


I never questioned her ability to sing in general, was more referencing how now she can't sing for crap. She was wayyyy off for the national anthem. It was legit painful to listen to.


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## rokket2005 (Jan 3, 2018)

I'm not sure which song/songs you might be referencing, but I find it completely laughable to think that Greg Wells would put out a single where the vocals were out of tune. The closest to that I can think of is Rob Kleiner leaving all of Sias little squeaks and cracks in, but that's wholly part of the character of her voice.


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## frogman81 (Jan 3, 2018)

rokket2005 said:


> I'm not sure which song/songs you might be referencing, but I find it completely laughable to think that Greg Wells would put out a single where the vocals were out of tune. The closest to that I can think of is Rob Kleiner leaving all of Sias little squeaks and cracks in, but that's wholly part of the character of her voice.



Oh I totally agree that it's odd, and I by no means consider my ears to be super in-tune. Here's what I was listening to this morning. I realize this is a live track, but I can dig into her studio stuff if I have to for lots of similar instances. To me, when she sings "photograph" at 2:05 she starts to waiver between flat and in-tune until 2:23. The word "exactly" around 2:14 seems most off to me.



Again, who am I to criticize her... I'm just trying to reconcile whether I'm just not a fan of her voice, or if she's been singing slightly off-pitch in an artistic way and people dig it.


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## Descent (Jan 3, 2018)

1:09 "Way you ta...alk" was pretty bad too. Yeah, a lot of it is pichy, I think it is live performance that they liked for the "character" or no idea what. 
She is actually one of the singers that I totally loathe, there's just some kind of jarring effect her voice has on me though, or maybe her cockney diction, but I find really hard to listen to her. 4:20 part is also really bad, her voice cracks in quite a few places...yuk. I leave this kind of music for the hausfraus.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 3, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Oh I totally agree that it's odd, and I by no means consider my ears to be super in-tune. Here's what I was listening to this morning. I realize this is a live track, but I can dig into her studio stuff if I have to for lots of similar instances. To me, when she sings "photograph" at 2:05 she starts to waiver between flat and in-tune until 2:23. The word "exactly" around 2:14 seems most off to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, who am I to criticize her... I'm just trying to reconcile whether I'm just not a fan of her voice, or if she's been singing slightly off-pitch in an artistic way and people dig it.




I think we all thought you were referencing album recordings and intentionally singing flat, no? I don't consider someone's live performance indicative of whether they always sing flat. Who knows what the room acoustics were like, whether she could accurately hear herself over the backing track, etc.

Sounds mostly fantastic to me. Not a perfect performance... there's a few questionable moments in there. But much like Kelly Clarkson, her songs are much harder than the average and so nailing them live is far more difficult (much like watching Olympic gymnastics routines where you get a higher score purely for attempting a harder routine).


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## bostjan (Jan 3, 2018)

"you'd be" around 2:43 is a little rough, too, pitch-wise. The soft piano-and-vocal part around 4:15 was kind of rough, too. Honestly, though, what's the point? You're picking apart the intonation of a pop singer's very specific live performance. Either you feel it or you don't feel it. You don't like the style, so why dwell on it? I mean, Adele is a human being, not a machine, so not every note is going to be 100% in pitch. This isn't my particular style, either, but my singing can never hold a candle to this level of performance, even if it isn't her best.

I'm not saying this to defend Adele in particular, though, just in defense of performers in general having a bad day.


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## rokket2005 (Jan 3, 2018)

It wasn't a fantastic performance, but compared to someone like Rihanna who absolutely cannot sing, I don't care enough to go out of my way to dislike her more for it.


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## ImBCRichBitch (Jan 3, 2018)

To answer, yes. She does sing consistantly flat


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## Lorcan Ward (Jan 3, 2018)

I wonder if on an Adele forum they are watching a Paul Gilbert or Steve Vai live video and talking about out of tune bends and making mistakes. 

Its human part in live music that can be edited out in studio recordings.


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## frogman81 (Jan 3, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> I think we all thought you were referencing album recordings and intentionally singing flat, no? I don't consider someone's live performance indicative of whether they always sing flat. Who knows what the room acoustics were like, whether she could accurately hear herself over the backing track, etc.
> 
> Sounds mostly fantastic to me. Not a perfect performance... there's a few questionable moments in there. But much like Kelly Clarkson, her songs are much harder than the average and so nailing them live is far more difficult (much like watching Olympic gymnastics routines where you get a higher score purely for attempting a harder routine).



Well I am referring to her album stuff too, they just happen to play that version on the radio around here. So here's her first single from way back in 2010. Around 0:14 when she sings "finally" to me it wanders in and out of tune. This sort of thing just continues throughout. At 0:18 "go AHEAD"... 0:23 "see how Iiiiii'llllll".... I think sometimes she slides into the correct note in a harsh way, kinda like listening to someone learn the violin. She does have a lot of multiple-note words to sing, which I'm sure isn't easy. 



The point isn't to bash on Adele. I just wondered if I was imagining things - maybe like jwade says above that she's just very nasal and I'm mistaking that for singing flat - OR if she actually isn't super accurate, but people love her for the character of her voice anyway. I actually think it's kind of cool in our quantized/autotuned age if the producer thought to himself/herself "well she's a little out at bar 37 and 42, but the performance is so good let's make this THE take".


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## ImBCRichBitch (Jan 3, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Well I am referring to her album stuff too, they just happen to play that version on the radio around here. So here's her first single from way back in 2010. Around 0:14 when she sings "finally" to me it wanders in and out of tune. This sort of thing just continues throughout. At 0:18 "go AHEAD"... 0:23 "see how Iiiiii'llllll".... I think sometimes she slides into the correct note in a harsh way, kinda like listening to someone learn the violin. She does have a lot of multiple-note words to sing, which I'm sure isn't easy.
> 
> 
> 
> The point isn't to bash on Adele. I just wondered if I was imagining things - maybe like jwade says above that she's just very nasal and I'm mistaking that for singing flat - OR if she actually isn't super accurate, but people love her for the character of her voice anyway. I actually think it's kind of cool in our quantized/autotuned age if the producer thought to himself/herself "well she's a little out at bar 37 and 42, but the performance is so good let's make this THE take".



A little nit picky, as i am a big fan of her stuff, but Rolling wasnt her first single and it is greatly improved from her first album 19. If you think shes flat now, look up Chasing Pavements.


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## frogman81 (Jan 3, 2018)

ImBCRichBitch said:


> To answer, yes. She does sing consistantly flat





ImBCRichBitch said:


> A little nit picky, as i am a big fan of her stuff, but Rolling wasnt her first single and it is greatly improved from her first album 19. If you think shes flat now, look up Chasing Pavements.



I figured there was an Adele fan or two in the house  Well I appreciate your answer as it makes me feel like I’m not crazy or totally tone deaf. I have tons of respect for her as a musician, plus she sells out stadiums (multiple nights per tour in Toronto’s case if I recall) and I’m just someone with a keyboard lol...


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## marcwormjim (Jan 4, 2018)

No one’s going to point out the typo in the thread title? Anyway, to answer the OP’s question: Yes; Adele does consistently sing fat. And like a lot of people, I was really disappointed when I saw her live. She started singing, and the show ended.


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## prlgmnr (Jan 4, 2018)

Auto tune has completely fucked our ability to enjoy music.


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## Descent (Jan 4, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I wonder if on an Adele forum they are watching a Paul Gilbert or Steve Vai live video and talking about out of tune bends and making mistakes.



I am willing to bet that fewer people have heard of Vai or any of the other shredders mentioned, I'm sure everyone on here has heard of Adele.


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## dr_game0ver (Jan 4, 2018)

Never heard of her. Is she the new girl from Nightwish?


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## wankerness (Jan 4, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Well I am referring to her album stuff too, they just happen to play that version on the radio around here. So here's her first single from way back in 2010. Around 0:14 when she sings "finally" to me it wanders in and out of tune. This sort of thing just continues throughout. At 0:18 "go AHEAD"... 0:23 "see how Iiiiii'llllll".... I think sometimes she slides into the correct note in a harsh way, kinda like listening to someone learn the violin. She does have a lot of multiple-note words to sing, which I'm sure isn't easy.
> 
> 
> 
> The point isn't to bash on Adele. I just wondered if I was imagining things - maybe like jwade says above that she's just very nasal and I'm mistaking that for singing flat - OR if she actually isn't super accurate, but people love her for the character of her voice anyway. I actually think it's kind of cool in our quantized/autotuned age if the producer thought to himself/herself "well she's a little out at bar 37 and 42, but the performance is so good let's make this THE take".




Those aren't "mistakes" per-se, those are intentional stylistic choices. If you want them sung in the completely personality/embellishment-free manner of say, Taylor Swift, or the completely generic vocal flourish style of well, almost every other big-voiced pop star of the last 20 years where they just do lots of boring perfectly-tuned scale runs and trills on everything, then you'd have to listen to them instead. I don't love Adele, but I really like that someone actually became famous doing something much more saw-edged like this without pandering to the "MUST BE PRETTY/MUST BE AUTO-TUNED" set which it is almost sounding like YOU are part of! I'd compare that kind of thing to doing rough slides out of notes or 1/4 step bends or that kind of thing. Sure, it's not perfectly quantized and in a big book of rigidity would be "mistakes," but when skilled people do that they're aiming for the sound of it.

Adele isn't the same boat, obviously, but I loved hearing something with more in common vocal-style with Imogen Heap's "Come Here Boy" than some blandly pretty crap like Ingrid Michaelson or some of the stereotypical big-voice stuff like 80s/early 90s Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey where they always sound like some dope singing the National Anthem at the super bowl. I actually looked forward to hearing this song on the radio at work (where they always insisted on running channels that were probably named "inoffensive pop").


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## bostjan (Jan 4, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Auto tune has completely fucked our ability to enjoy music.



Sadly, this is my main takeaway from this thread. 



wankerness said:


> "inoffensive pop"



Yeah. Oddly, many of those stations will still play songs with content that would be highly offensive to some people, but most people just don't pay attention to the lyrics. Like when I'm at the grocery store to get milk for the kids and the musak station on the overhead speakers that I almost always tune out starts playing "My Neck My Back," and I can't stop laughing at how fucked up the world has become, but not a single soul near me is paying any attention to the music, so everyone thinks I'm just randomly going insane...


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## Strobe (Jan 4, 2018)

Yeah, maybe sometimes, but she still sounds great. It's probably some vibrato in her technique not executed perfectly. She still has her own sound and it would be hard to argue she doesn't have a damn good set of pipes. Auto-tune has probably ruined this for a lot of people - before auto-tune, only the rare person with really good pitch and a nit-picky disposition would be bothered by this sort of thing.


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## wankerness (Jan 4, 2018)

Right. I mean, I don't know if she could sing that exactly perfectly in pitch every time anyway, but the style of that singing is definitely calculated and it completely fits the song and it's not like it couldn't have VERY easily been fixed either via autotune or another take, it's not like she's hurting for money in the recording of these albums, so anything on them is very calculated.

Unless she's some kind of idiot savant that has never sung anything in tune and that was take #859383 and they just chose the best out of all of them and the producer didn't know how to use autotune, I guess.

I don't get why people are saying autotune has ruined peoples' ears, unless said people are only listening to new music. It's not like music pre-2000 isn't constantly played in many places? Unless THAT sounds bad to them too, I guess.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Like when I'm at the grocery store to get milk for the kids and the musak station on the overhead speakers that I almost always tune out starts playing "My Neck My Back,"



Hey man, that's just educational.


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## Demiurge (Jan 4, 2018)

Maybe she's an A=432Hz truther.


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## bostjan (Jan 4, 2018)

wankerness said:


> Right. I mean, I don't know if she could sing that exactly perfectly in pitch every time anyway, but the style of that singing is definitely calculated and it completely fits the song and it's not like it couldn't have VERY easily been fixed either via autotune or another take, it's not like she's hurting for money in the recording of these albums, so anything on them is very calculated.
> 
> Unless she's some kind of idiot savant that has never sung anything in tune and that was take #859383 and they just chose the best out of all of them and the producer didn't know how to use autotune, I guess.
> 
> I don't get why people are saying autotune has ruined peoples' ears, unless said people are only listening to new music. It's not like music pre-2000 isn't constantly played in many places? Unless THAT sounds bad to them too, I guess.



Let's be frank for a minute. Music pre-2000 and post-2000 is entirely different. Autotune came out in 1998. J-Lo's (J-Lo was famous going back to the early 90's) first studio album came out in 1999. No question the existence of autotune equates to the existence of quite a few pop singers of the 2000's and 2010's. Youtube comments confirm this, when you find isolated vocal tracks from phenomenal pre-autotune performances and see a smattering of negative comments about "pitchiness."


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## wankerness (Jan 4, 2018)

I didn't think people that dense could even tell when things were perfectly in pitch. They must be evolving to a higher level of idiocy!

Strangely, this has had no effect on the quality of bar karaoke.


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## mongey (Jan 4, 2018)

In the live vid posted I'd agree a few lines weren't sung great but fuck , its live music. you put it down and hope you pull it off as well as you can .sometimes you just gotta take a few warts.and theres was 

there isn't enough individuality in popular music, or any music anymore . you can pick apart plenty of the great jazz vocalists for similar performances , but its those cracks in the system that make them great artists. Sinatra is criticized for singing flat, but it sounds cool as hell to me


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## Descent (Jan 6, 2018)

There was an interview with the Stargate production team working with J-Lo, they basically recorded 20-30 takes of her vocals and an engineer spent 2-3 days editing it per song, then pitch shifting it 

Talking about individuality - Joe Sturgis is just as bad, there were a few shows with him critiquing music and most of the time it was "vocal is not tuned".

That's the reason why I mainly stick to 80s and 70s music.


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## couverdure (Jan 6, 2018)

Descent said:


> Talking about individuality - Joe Sturgis is just as bad, there were a few shows with him critiquing music and most of the time it was "vocal is not tuned".


It's strange that Glenn Fricker, who has a very strong stance against Auto-Tune, is friends with him.


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## Descent (Jan 6, 2018)

couverdure said:


> It's strange that Glenn Fricker, who has a very strong stance against Auto-Tune, is friends with him.



I think he likes to be a fanboy and rub shoulders with more successful producers/engineers. 
I think Glenn's only call to fame is a remix credit on a song or two on a much hated Queensryche album. BTW, listen to it, the production is awful. It is one of the last ones before they split into two camps.


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## fps (Jan 6, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Auto tune has completely fucked our ability to enjoy music.



Seriously.
She's just singing her songs, and one of her charms is she is not autotuned because she can ACTUALLY SING. I'm not a big fan, but her voice is undeniable. Wavering in pitch? It's called vibrato.


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## garey77 (Jan 6, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Sitting at my local breakfast joint and Adele was playing. Not to knock her obvious technical abilities/success/songwriting, but from her very first single, her voice has been a bit like nails on a chalkboard to me. I think it’s because she often ventures slightly flat (to my ears). My theory is that the producers keep her takes because it adds a bit of rawness/vulnerability to the tracks. Any thoughts?


Listening to just about anything before 2000 is like that...lots of flatness (I like to call it "fashionably flat"). It's a bit subjective. For some people, they don't perceive these short bits of pitchy-ness 'bad', I think if anything it's more realistic and keeps the feel of being in the moment with the artist sort of pure, if that makes any sense. 

For me, I'm in your boat. I hear all the wrong notes and it drives me batshit. My wife is a stellar vocalist and actually kills Adele covers all the time, so when I hear Adele sing all I hear are the flat notes. I sort of wish I didn't, because then I would likely enjoy the performances.


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## wankerness (Jan 8, 2018)

fps said:


> Seriously.
> She's just singing her songs, and one of her charms is she is not autotuned because she can ACTUALLY SING. I'm not a big fan, but her voice is undeniable. Wavering in pitch? It's called vibrato.



Another thing I really liked about Adele was that Skyfall song. That is far and away the best James Bond theme since the 70s!! After the likes of that utter trash Madonna song, that was shocking to hear. A song that was almost entirely vocally-driven and wasn't manipulated all to hell! The other half-decent ones in the last couple decades (ex, the Garbage one and the Chris Cornell one) also had memorable vocal parts, but not nearly to that extent. It was almost a throwback to the ludicrous Tom Jones "Thunderball" theme with the vocals as huge as possible and overtaking everything. Great stuff. Most of the other good singers out there in the pop world today still hide behind production to a much greater degree than her. Many might WISH she'd hide behind production more, but hey. I give her a lot of credit.

In related news, I should listen to that Lady Gaga/Tony Bennett album. I wonder if she actually sounds good without being intentionally turned into robot lady? I have a feeling she's at least pretty good.


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## bostjan (Jan 8, 2018)

Descent said:


> There was an interview with the Stargate production team working with J-Lo, they basically recorded 20-30 takes of her vocals and an engineer spent 2-3 days editing it per song, then pitch shifting it
> 
> Talking about individuality - Joe Sturgis is just as bad, there were a few shows with him critiquing music and most of the time it was "vocal is not tuned".
> 
> That's the reason why I mainly stick to 80s and 70s music.



Just think if J-Lo had done 30 takes per song on analogue tape in the 80's, and then an engineer had to edit it together with a doctor blade, it would have cost more than the budget of all her films combined, and you still would not have auto-tune. I mean, looking at the final product, to me, I don't at all care for it when it is digitally edited and auto-tuned, so I guess who cares?



couverdure said:


> Glenn Fricker



I'd love to know how Fricker got his followers. I rarely ever see studio or guitar advice from him that I don't consider bad.



wankerness said:


> Lady Gaga



I'm not a huge fan of her music, either, but I have a lot more respect for Lady Gaga as an artist than I do for 99% of the rest of pop, since she's got a good vision about the whole thing. She seems sincere about her music and her whole shtick about her larger-than-life image is consistently unpredictable, like she's self-aware about being over-the-top. Like if Sharknado films were to transcend to another level of artistry, they'd become Lady Gaga.  I think Adele is almost a sort of yin to Lady Gaga's yang, in terms of how she approaches things sincerely. Being able to sing all 29 in-key notes in a five octave run near the end of a pop song is super impressive, but also dangerously easy to do in a way that is not-at-all musically relevant, which is why I can say that Mariah Carey was a hell of a good singer, but that I also really don't care about it beyond that.

This discussion might also spur off into a theoretical discussion, depending on how nerdy we want to take it, but, say a song is in the key of A. If you sing a C# that is 14 cents flatter than the auto-tune/piano roll C#, it's actually more in tune with just intonation, so do you autotune the note or not? I really feel strongly that it'd depend on context. I think if the music in the backing track is dense with keybaords and other equal tempered instruments, then the note will sound flat, but if you sang exactly the same note with a sparse instrumental arrangement, it'd actually sound just a touch better than if it were a perfect equal tempered C#. If the instrumental track is dominated by brass instruments that are tuned closer to the natural harmonic series, the slightly flat note, I think, works better.

Looking at the comments sections of Tolgahan's videos, it seems that people generally gravitate toward equal temperament over well temperament or just intonation than I would have expected. Research suggests that's a learned set of intonation. It's not really a stretch to conclude that autotune is reinforcing the expectation of things sounding more equal tempered.


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## TedEH (Jan 9, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Auto tune has completely fucked our ability to enjoy music.


Some days I think I'm the only person who doesn't hate pitch correction. I'd rather listen to a super polished vocal production than raw pitchy nonsense. Doing things one way or the other doesn't make the music more "real" or "valuable" or "meaningful" or any of those things. I can't stand the TPain style robot voice kind of "auto-tune", but hearing a produced vocal that's off pitch because of the producer or artist being too stuck up to fix it bothers me more than being able to detect the corrections. It's a tool, like any other tool. It's the same as drum samples, or guitar VSTs or anything else. I mean, are we going to say we shouldn't use compressors 'cause it covers up the artists real dynamic range?

Maybe this belongs in the unpopular opinion thread.


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## RevDrucifer (Jan 10, 2018)

Descent said:


> I think he likes to be a fanboy and rub shoulders with more successful producers/engineers.
> I think Glenn's only call to fame is a remix credit on a song or two on a much hated Queensryche album. BTW, listen to it, the production is awful. It is one of the last ones before they split into two camps.



That was actually after they split, the album you're referring to is Geoff Tate's version of Queensryche, the album is Frequency Unknown, funnily enough. When the album was first released, it got a shit ton of criticism for pretty much everything, but the mix was one of them. The record label had it re-mixed pretty quickly after it was initially released, a bunch of different guys re-mixed individual songs, Glen is credited with one of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_Unknown#Personnel


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## rokket2005 (Jan 10, 2018)

He also did a Woods of Ypres record which also sounds awful.


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## Schizo Sapiens (Jan 11, 2018)

It's common thing in "bluesy" style of singing. Lots of intentionally "uneasy" notes, gradual sliding into "correct" notes from below, things like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_note

That being said, they can be pretty annoying when overused:


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## protest (Jan 12, 2018)

mongey said:


> In the live vid posted I'd agree a few lines weren't sung great but fuck , its live music. you put it down and hope you pull it off as well as you can .sometimes you just gotta take a few warts.and theres was
> 
> there isn't enough individuality in popular music, or any music anymore . you can pick apart plenty of the great jazz vocalists for similar performances , but its those cracks in the system that make them great artists. Sinatra is criticized for singing flat, but it sounds cool as hell to me



I think metal suffers from this lack of individuality as well. It seems like people's first criticism of new releases are always about the mix, when that almost never even registers to me. I'm listening to the music, and in order for the quality of production to even cross my mind it's got to be really obnoxious where it jumps out like the snare on St. Anger, or just be so bad that it's largely inaudible. Outside of those extreme cases I just don't care. I became a huge metal fan listening to lots of crappy low budget mixes, never stopped me from enjoying it, and honestly I think I'm getting to the point of where I prefer it to the clinical path pretty much all music has taken.


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## bostjan (Jan 12, 2018)

I do like the crystal clarity of some of the newer metal productions, but I think it's rather odd that some people seem to have come to expect such out of a metal band who is probably expected to make just a couple thousand USD in revenue off of an album. I know I'd want the best production possible, but spending five times as much as you might make back on production seems like a bad idea.


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## cardinal (Jan 12, 2018)

All I can tell you is that I enjoy listening to Adele and Lady Gaga stuff when I hear it come on the radio.


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