# Am I becoming a tonal dinosaur? Modern metal tone



## farren (Sep 12, 2017)

I don't want to be a Golden Ager. I don't want to complain about when guitar tones used to sound good and how no one knows how to set their amps anymore. Maybe when I'm bitter and senile, but I'm not going to complain about it now just like I'm not going to complain about the books or movies you enjoy, because I know it's totally subjective and my tastes are no better than yours, but I will say I missed the bus when common metal guitar tone started changing in what I guess were the mid '00s to early '10s, and apparently I am just now noticing.

Here's where I'm coming from: I'm 33. Most of my favorite guitar tones are from the '90s. I like a thrashy tone with a good deal of high end cut and not so much midrange that it 'blunts' the sound (yeah, I know mids cut better in a mix). I love all those JMP-1 metal tones so many people recorded with in the '90s. I have a Mark V and I run it in Mark IV mode/variac/pentode with a classic V on the EQ, often sharpened further with a FullDrive 2. I find the cherished IIC+ just too fat, not enough high end. I love prog metal, death metal, thrash. Some of my favorite tones of all time are Stephan Lill from Vanden Plas' first several albums (JMP-1), Eugene Simone on Eldritch's Headquake, and Jim Matheos' tone from most Fates Warning albums (Mark IV) and all his live performances (Sansamp+Dual Rec usually). These are diverse examples (though all passive pickups), but they all do it for me. FWIW my favorite pickup at the moment is probably the Evo2 (not a big Vai fan but love all his pickups save the original Evolution), though I'm also really enjoying the EMG 57-7 which tells me it's mostly a matter of amp settings, because the vast majority of EMG 57(-7) demos make my ears bleed.

I've been looking at pickup comparison videos on YouTube lately, and I'm floored by how different the amp settings in all these videos are from mine. I know these are good pickups and any number of them would work for me, but I find the amp settings so off-putting that it's difficult to judge one against the other. Then I come across a recent Phil Collen video for Jackson (the guy has barely changed since I was born), and while he has the gain set too high, I'm thinking 'wow, this is a great metal tone,' and I'm not even much of a Def Leppard fan. I felt old.

I can basically track the tonal change through John Petrucci's pickups over the years. I loved the Steve's Special tone from the '90s and the JMP-1 and Dual Rec tones from Images and Words and Awake, but then it just got fatter and less aggressive from there to the point where I find Dream Theater's most recent DVDs difficult to listen to with what I can only describe as a farty rhythm tone. Breaking the Fourth Wall sounds like bingo night at a church. I know he likes a lot of the newer generation of prog metal, and because I don't, his gradual tonal transformation has sort of served as my window into that and what a lot of players are into now...

Anyone else feel a little bit tonally alienated these days? I mean, what next, are my beloved Soloist-style guitars all going to look like old man guitars 20 years from now?


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## Harry (Sep 12, 2017)

Well ultimately we all have our tonal preferences.
If you had framed your thread as just being such, then you can easily not be the "dinosaur".
But I think banging on about a period of time well passed being "better" does have the effect of making one seem an out of touch individual/dinosaur.

The idea that modern metal tone is only one thing, a narrowly defined idea just makes me think you're not getting out there (speaking mostly figuratively) and listening to a wide enough variety of music that modern metal has to offer, because within modern metal you can find plenty of variation of tone, not just within guitars but bass and drums too


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 12, 2017)




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## farren (Sep 12, 2017)

Harry said:


> Well ultimately we all have our tonal preferences.
> If you had framed your thread as just being such, then you can easily not be the "dinosaur".
> But I think banging on about a period of time well passed being "better" does have the effect of making one seem an out of touch individual/dinosaur.
> 
> The idea that modern metal tone is only one thing, a narrowly defined idea just makes me think you're not getting out there (speaking mostly figuratively) and listening to a wide enough variety of music that modern metal has to offer, because within modern metal you can find plenty of variation of tone, not just within guitars but bass and drums too



The first paragraph was explicitly about not framing it that way. I don't think my tone is better. Like I said, no better than my favorite books or movies versus your favorites. I was joking about one day turning into an old man with a Les Paul who complains about 'kids these days,' but it was a long post so I can't blame you for skimming it. The only thing I explicitly dissed was Petrucci's recent rhythm tone, but I'm not alone on that one.

What I base my general 'modern metal tone' concept on is the kind of tone I see in a lot of videos by 20- or 30-something guitarists on YouTube with good gear. It's a good indicator of where tone is going in my opinion because it will represent to a large degree the kind of tone that newer bands with large followings are using. I don't think 'modern metal tone is one thing'--I'm referring to especially midrange-heavy tone.

I listen to lots of new metal, but most of the bands I listen to formed in the '90s (or even '80s) and while their tone has evolved, it's still more or less within my neighborhood of preferences.


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## B.M.F. (Sep 12, 2017)

I can really understand the same thing you are saying. I hate mids, but you need them for live and solos and for guitars to pop out in a mix. Most of my favorite guitar tones are from the '80s and '90s as well. I love old-school extreme metal and most of the music I listen to (not just metal) is before 2005-ish. I am always discovering new bands from around that period because I like the style. I am about as old as you are. And yes I'm the old man gawking on about how bands back in the day had to learn all the parts and play as a unit well before recording due to lack of access to recording technology and so that feel and urgency is very lost today. Alex Webster said something great one time "you are only original once."
But the point is that you like what you like, indulge in it, change it, fit it to suit your needs, there are no hard fast rules in creativity? That "tonally alienated" feeling you stressed is part of your creative flow, the thing that will make you sound like you and nobody else.
EDIT: And no Soloists will always be an amazing guitar


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 12, 2017)

yup old.


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## exo (Sep 13, 2017)

I'm a rhythm guy, don't get too fussed about "lead tone", but I'm also a "tone dinosaur". 

Almost every "favorite" recorded guitar tone of mine is from 1998 and prior. The classic "Jose mod" JCM 800 sound, Metallica MOP, Sepultura and Iced Earth "morrisound studios" stuff, Dream Theater "Awake", Blind Guardian's Nightfall in Middle Earth. Kreator's Enemy of God is really the only post 2000 album I can identify as having a tone I am particularly fond of.

The common denominator? When most of my favorite tones were recorded, the Peavey 5150/6505 was not the type of dominant force that it is these days. So many tones over the last 20 years are "5150 blended with......" type of tones. Apparently, that's just not "my" thing.


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## Humbuck (Sep 13, 2017)

I'm 48 and I own 11 different old Marshall heads, both stock and modded, as well as old Fender and Gibson tube combos from the 50's and 60's and I'd love to get my hands on an Axe-fx or Kemper...I'm certain I will at some point. Most of my playing at home any more is through an ipad with Bias FX on it.


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## Unleash The Fury (Sep 13, 2017)

Peoples tastes change over time man.


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## gunch (Sep 13, 2017)

However Luc had his VH140 dialed in on Erosion of Sanity and the VH140 on Despise the Sun


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 13, 2017)

There's plenty of modern metal that isn't "ALL TEH MIDZ" and that's part of why I like bands like Lamb of God or Mastodon. They play "modern metal" but their tones are vastly different from dj00nty stuff.


exo said:


> I'm a rhythm guy, don't get too fussed about "lead tone", but I'm also a "tone dinosaur".
> 
> Almost every "favorite" recorded guitar tone of mine is from 1998 and prior. The classic "Jose mod" JCM 800 sound, Metallica MOP, Sepultura and Iced Earth "morrisound studios" stuff, Dream Theater "Awake", Blind Guardian's Nightfall in Middle Earth. Kreator's Enemy of God is really the only post 2000 album I can identify as having a tone I am particularly fond of.
> 
> The common denominator? When most of my favorite tones were recorded, the Peavey 5150/6505 was not the type of dominant force that it is these days. So many tones over the last 20 years are "5150 blended with......" type of tones. Apparently, that's just not "my" thing.


 I don't really like the 5150 sound, except for Gojira's tone. I love the razor sharp chunk they get.


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## TedEH (Sep 13, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> plenty of modern metal that isn't "ALL TEH MIDZ" and that's part of why I like bands like Lamb of God


I guess everyone hears things differently, but LoG uses a super mids-heavy sound. The Mark amps they've used absolutely have ALL THE MIDS. That's a big part of what I like about those amps, you can put them next to a more scoopy sounding amp and they blend well without stomping on eachother.

I generally don't like a lot of "modern" tones, but not because of "how many mids" they use, it's usually a matter of so many tones being based on the same formula: 5150 or similar or a model of one, with a boost, with mids adjusted in some way, through a bunch of v30s, mic'd with a 57, sometimes blending with something else. The resulting gain character just isn't interesting anymore.

But then also consider the other elements surrounding the guitar sound - there are also trends in things like the Darkglass/dirty bass sound, and we're hearing a lot of the same programmed drum samples and patterns - which means heavy and proggy music in general is just saturated with a lot of same-ness. I made a similar comment a while back about how so many of the bedroom/home/diy proggy instrumental stuff you run into online sounds all the same to my ears. I can only handle so much noodling through biasfx or whatever it is + sampled drums.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 13, 2017)

TedEH said:


> I guess everyone hears things differently, but LoG uses a super mids-heavy sound. The Mark amps they've used absolutely have ALL THE MIDS. That's a big part of what I like about those amps, you can put them next to a more scoopy sounding amp and they blend well without stomping on eachother.
> 
> I generally don't like a lot of "modern" tones, but not because of "how many mids" they use, it's usually a matter of so many tones being based on the same formula: 5150 or similar or a model of one, with a boost, with mids adjusted in some way, through a bunch of v30s, mic'd with a 57, sometimes blending with something else. The resulting gain character just isn't interesting anymore.
> 
> But then also consider the other elements surrounding the guitar sound - there are also trends in things like the Darkglass/dirty bass sound, and we're hearing a lot of the same programmed drum samples and patterns - which means heavy and proggy music in general is just saturated with a lot of same-ness. I made a similar comment a while back about how so many of the bedroom/home/diy proggy instrumental stuff you run into online sounds all the same to my ears. I can only handle so much noodling through biasfx or whatever it is + sampled drums.


I thought mark morton was using a transatlantic or some other boogie, not the mark series. Anyways, their sound depends on the album. Some of their earlier albums are more mid scooped sounding but yeah, later stuff like Sturm und Drang/Resolution are definitely more mid-forward. I was more referencing how a lot of kids are bumping the mids like crazy to get the djenty sound. What's funny is I watched misha's video of the invective and he actually scoops the mids on the amp, then bumps the mids from the pickup/overdrive into the scooped amp and gets a pretty savage rhythm tone. I know there's other non-djenty bands that also do something similar with their setups.


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## bostjan (Sep 13, 2017)

I'm significantly older and crabbier than you, but I prefer some of the newer tones to the old ones, but I don't think that the 90's tones were bad, so much as they are a bit "dated" now. I think that in the year 2525, people will look at the noises we called music in the 2010's and scoff at how horribly archaic they are.

Anyway, I see your side of it, I think. Maybe I don't know which tones exactly, you don't like, since I didn't pay as much attention to the newest Dream Theater offering. If I compare WD&DU to, say, BC&SL, I'd say Pettrucci's tone is way better now, but IDK man, that's just, like, my opinion.


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## mikah912 (Sep 13, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I thought mark morton was using a transatlantic or some other boogie, not the mark series. Anyways, their sound depends on the album. Some of their earlier albums are more mid scooped sounding but yeah, later stuff like Sturm und Drang/Resolution are definitely more mid-forward. I was more referencing how a lot of kids are bumping the mids like crazy to get the djenty sound. What's funny is I watched misha's video of the invective and he actually scoops the mids on the amp, then bumps the mids from the pickup/overdrive into the scooped amp and gets a pretty savage rhythm tone. I know there's other non-djenty bands that also do something similar with their setups.



The Invective is 5150-based, so cranking the mids on that would be disastrous. The 5150/6505 is MID-heavy with its natural voicing. That's why people start at 6/4/6 for the B/M/T settings.


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## jephjacques (Sep 13, 2017)

I'm just glad literally every band on the planet isn't using a super-scooped Dual Rectifier these days. And I'm sure in 10 years we'll all be able to instantly identify the sound of a 2010s era AxeFX preset and roll our eyes


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 13, 2017)

mikah912 said:


> The Invective is 5150-based, so cranking the mids on that would be disastrous. The 5150/6505 is MID-heavy with its natural voicing. That's why people start at 6/4/6 for the B/M/T settings.


ah, well between that, the juggs having a mid forward voice and the precision drive cranking even more mids I can see why he cuts some out on the amp.


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## TedEH (Sep 13, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I thought mark morton was using a transatlantic or some other boogie, not the mark series.


Ashes is all Mark IV to my ears. And I think the next album or two are mostly Marks, maybe blended with stuff (but I'm guessing). If someone asks "what does a Mark amp sound like", to me, Ashes of the Wake is the answer. Last I heard (and I'm too lazy to look it up) Morton was blending a Mark and the Transatlantic.

I'm not 100% convinced that we're all talking about the same "mids" when we say something sounds scooped or mid-y though.  Such is the nature of trying to use words to describe sound.

Edit: I think it's worth keeping in mind too that we can't judge a sound based on where the dial sits. You can "scoop mids" using a control on the amp and still have lots of mids in your sound. Lots of high gain amps are very heavy on what people call "the mids" to begin with, it just becomes a question of *how much* you remove.


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## mikah912 (Sep 13, 2017)

TedEH said:


> I'm not 100% convinced that we're all talking about the same "mids" when we say something sounds scooped or mid-y though.  Such is the nature of trying to use words to describe sound.



Yeah, "mids" are not a monolithic fixed frequency. There are low mids (240hz-700hz or so) and high mids (800hz-2K or so). 

I think the "modern" sound actually scoops away low mids because they tend to convey "muddiness" with extended range guitars and drop tunings. They boost high mids for clarity and presence on those same areas.

Also, "modern" production often shears away a lot of the highs and lows on guitars, then scoops out the mids on bass tone so what's left is a clangy, thumpy pillow to wrap around the note definition of the guitars. That's why bass tone is such an underappreciated staple of good modern guitar tone.


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## Andromalia (Sep 13, 2017)

I imagine your pain, as I still think the best ever guitar tone is on The Number of the Beast.


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## prlgmnr (Sep 13, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> I imagine your pain, as I still think the best ever guitar tone is on The Number of the Beast.


The best ever guitar tone is the first 14 seconds of Aint Talkin Bout Love


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## Grindspine (Sep 13, 2017)

I still use a Mesa Triaxis and Simul 2:Ninety setup with Duncan Distortion and EMG-81 equipped guitars. I am fairly sure that my main Lead 2 Red sound was centered around Sepultura's Chaos A.D. I do steer away from the old Celestion G12T-75 though, leaning more toward the G12H-80, G12H-90, Creamback 75, Black Shadow 90 type speakers blended with a Vintage 30 though. Updating speakers might make a big step towards the difference in tones between 1990 and now.

Over the years I have gotten more creative with post-EQ and pre-gain boosting so that I have more upper mid cut. God Forbid and Killswitch Engage were ear opening with their clear, aggressive, midrange sounds. I really dig Holcomb's pickup set and his overall sounds on Haunted Shores and Periphery's albums. I find myself using that 90's death metal sound as a base, then seasoning with modern upper mid cut.

A lot can be said for listening to modern music and trying to capture some of the modern tones compared to sounds from the past. Your preference will ultimately be shaped by experience and comparing to everything you hear.


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## KailM (Sep 13, 2017)

TS, I'm a bit older than you and definitely feel your pain. My favorite metal tones are all firmly housed in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. I literally cannot listen to nor make any purchasing decisions based on YouTube clips for metal gear because these days it is practically ALL someone tuned to Drop-G, mids dimed, utterly no bass in the guitar tone, and playing heavily gated start/stop djent trash. It sounds like Donald Duck rapping with a cold, in other words.

Certainly, tone is subjective-- but there's kind of this mentality now that if you're going to play 'modern' metal, you must have that exaggerated "tiGhT, KlEER" sound.

I want my metal to be rough around the edges, I guess. Can't stand this overly polished crap.


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## Demiurge (Sep 13, 2017)

For me, it's not the EQing of modern tone that's the issue, but rather the brutal "loudness wars" compression that just happens to accompany it. It gets harrowing during extended listening to stuff even if the tone sounds great.


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## Ebony (Sep 13, 2017)

For me personally, modern tone is very often not brutal enough. Sure, it is loud as hell and the bass in the guitar (unlike the actual bass guitar) is way too cranked. But the grit and harshness is too soft and polished. Not enough "sawblade" effect.

Not sure if this is era-specific though, alot of older stuff also have this problem.

EDIT: Also need to add that the increase in bass I'm referring to is _not_ the increase in bass that is due to the use of lower tunings.


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## wakjob (Sep 13, 2017)

Well, your not alone.

The recent trend in having the 1-2k frequency all jacked up to give that clucky pick attack can wear on the ears after a while. It does define an age in guitar though.

Having once owned an FAS & KPA, I found myself liking the old school "chuggy" metal amp profiles such as the MESA Mark III and Engl Savage.

That clicky "dert" sound kinda ruins playing heavy for me and my style... because I've got 10+ more years on you also.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sep 13, 2017)

5 - 10 years ago, everyone was complaining about the muddy, scooped out metal tones.

Now we miss it.

What a world.


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## budda (Sep 13, 2017)

TedEH said:


> Ashes is all Mark IV to my ears.



And yet ATPB sounds drastically different, and is definitely mark IV's. I loved Ashes when it came out, and now I listen back from ATPB to sacrament and I felt that things just got too rounded out and lost aggressiveness tonally. Just shows the differences that are achievable, really.


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## farren (Sep 13, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> 5 - 10 years ago, everyone was complaining about the muddy, scooped out metal tones.
> 
> Now we miss it.
> 
> What a world.



Well I am glad to see I'm not alone in it.  Not that I could change my tonal preferences even if I wanted to... My tonal evolution in recent years is tweaking the EQ or gain an imperceptible amount every couple months, which over time probably leads me back to where I began. My own Red Queen's race.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

My favorite tones are the brown sound, Aspen Pittman Purple Plexi/#39 [they're supposedly the same amp?], Soldano SLO, JCM 800, 1959, A/DA MP-1, Lee Jackson, etc. I prefer Marshall tones from the 70s and 80s. Eddie Van Halen, Warren DeMartini, George Lynch, COB, early Zakk Wylde, and Vito Bratta have great tone.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

prlgmnr said:


> The best ever guitar tone is the first 14 seconds of Aint Talkin Bout Love


I agree, but I think F.U.C.K. and Fair Warning have better tone. I also really like EVH's Plexi + Eventide chorus on 5150.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> 5 - 10 years ago, everyone was complaining about the muddy, scooped out metal tones.
> 
> Now we miss it.
> 
> What a world.


I don't. I prefer rock tones for metal.


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## farren (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I don't. I prefer rock tones for metal.



(The Lord Weird) Slough Feg epitomizes rock tones for metal. Basically a '70s Marshall sound with stock pickup Gibsons. It was cool until their more recent albums where IMO the gain has dropped to the point where palm muting just isn't satisfying--in fact, I'm not even sure they double-tracked their latest album, which sounds legitimately ancient.

For an example, see their tonal evolution from this to this.


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## exo (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I don't. I prefer rock tones for metal.



(old geezer mode on...) well, back in the day those "rock" tones WERE metal tones......


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

farren said:


> (The Lord Weird) Slough Feg epitomizes rock tones for metal. Basically a '70s Marshall sound with stock pickup Gibsons. It was cool until their more recent albums where IMO the gain has dropped to the point where palm muting just isn't satisfying--in fact, I'm not even sure they double-tracked their latest album, which sounds legitimately ancient.
> 
> For an example, see their tonal evolution from this to this.


That first song is pretty cool. These new cats can keep their shitty 1-2k +12-15 dB guitar tones. I love mids, but that shit is excessive and superfluous. As for the second tune, they are double tracked, but are going for more of a KISS kind of tone. ie, I, The Oath.



exo said:


> (old geezer mode on...) well, back in the day those "rock" tones WERE metal tones......


Tony Iommi still has some of the best metal guitar tones. Kids today try to boost the upper mids and treble, but he was born into it, molded by it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

I love the Frazetta style album cover and artwork for Laser Enforcer and Digital Resistance.


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## Blytheryn (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> My favorite tones are the brown sound, Aspen Pittman Purple Plexi/#39 [they're supposedly the same amp?], Soldano SLO, JCM 800, 1959, A/DA MP-1, Lee Jackson, etc. I prefer Marshall tones from the 70s and 80s. Eddie Van Halen, Warren DeMartini, George Lynch, COB, early Zakk Wylde, and Vito Bratta have great tone.



Early COB, especially hatebreeder and Follow the Reaper are my favorite guitar tones of all time.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

Blytheryn said:


> Early COB, especially hatebreeder and Follow the Reaper are my favorite guitar tones of all time.


Those are good. I also like Halo of Blood.


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## farren (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I love the Frazetta style album cover and artwork for Laser Enforcer and Digital Resistance.



Funny you mention KISS... The cover art for that album was actually influenced by a KISS album cover. Anyway, if interested, I feel obliged to mention Traveller (dog with a laser gun cover art ) is usually considered the best album to start with, though the album before it and the album after it are also great.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

farren said:


> Funny you mention KISS... The cover art for that album was actually influenced by a KISS album cover. Anyway, if interested, I feel obliged to mention Traveller (dog with a laser gun cover art ) is usually considered the best album to start with, though the album before it and the album after it are also great.


KISS wanted Frazetta for Destroyer, but somehow couldn't get him. He was, I think, too much money and wanted to keep ownership of his artwork. They instead went with his protege Ken Kelly.


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## Hollowway (Sep 14, 2017)

prlgmnr said:


> The best ever guitar tone is the first 14 seconds of Aint Talkin Bout Love



Yeah, definitely one of my favorite tones of all time.

My ALL time favorite is the main riff of Ratt’s “Lay it Down.” As far as I’m concerned, the 90s was a lost decade of metal. I hated everything that came out, for the most part. 

But farren, are you talking about when you’re playing at home, or listening to music / in a band setting? If I’m playing at home, nothing is more fun that a modded JCM800 with a scooped EQ or a Mark IV scooped EQ tone. But in a band setting, that ends up sounding too hollow and fizzy to me. It might sound odd, but in addition to that VH and Ratt tone, I also like bulb’s tone off of Periphery I. And I think it’s just because of how it sits in the mix. I hate his tone on amp demos, but love it when it’s recorded. And when I try to reproduce a good mid-centric guitar-in-mix sound at home, I have to scoop the EQ a bit.


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## Hollowway (Sep 14, 2017)

prlgmnr said:


> The best ever guitar tone is the first 14 seconds of Aint Talkin Bout Love



Yeah, definitely one of my favorite tones of all time.

My ALL time favorite is the main riff of Ratt’s “Lay it Down.” As far as I’m concerned, the 90s was a lost decade of metal. I hated everything that came out, for the most part. 

But farren, are you talking about when you’re playing at home, or listening to music / in a band setting? If I’m playing at home, nothing is more fun that a modded JCM800 with a scooped EQ or a Mark IV scooped EQ tone. But in a band setting, that ends up sounding too hollow and fizzy to me. It might sound odd, but in addition to that VH and Ratt tone, I also like bulb’s tone off of Periphery I. And I think it’s just because of how it sits in the mix. I hate his tone on amp demos, but love it when it’s recorded. And when I try to reproduce a good mid-centric guitar-in-mix sound at home, I have to scoop the EQ a bit.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, definitely one of my favorite tones of all time.
> 
> My ALL time favorite is the main riff of Ratt’s “Lay it Down.” As far as I’m concerned, the 90s was a lost decade of metal. I hated everything that came out, for the most part.
> 
> But farren, are you talking about when you’re playing at home, or listening to music / in a band setting? If I’m playing at home, nothing is more fun that a modded JCM800 with a scooped EQ or a Mark IV scooped EQ tone. But in a band setting, that ends up sounding too hollow and fizzy to me. It might sound odd, but in addition to that VH and Ratt tone, I also like bulb’s tone off of Periphery I. And I think it’s just because of how it sits in the mix. I hate his tone on amp demos, but love it when it’s recorded. And when I try to reproduce a good mid-centric guitar-in-mix sound at home, I have to scoop the EQ a bit.


Ratt's material from 81-91 was fucking great. Even the new track, Nobody Rides for Free, on the 81-91 best of. From what I understand, Lynch and DeMartini were both renting the same Marshall for albums, and were trying to outdo each other, particularly in the tone department. I would assume they are using Greenbacks, and they sound killer. That said, I think George Lynch is using something in addition to Greenbacks.

As for the 90s in general, fuck it. A few good bands, a few decent to cool albums, but mostly a load of junk. Though, if you venture outside of those genres that were popular in the 80s like hair metal, thrash metal, etc., there were quite a few bands like Cannibal Corpse, Death, and even some black metal bands that were doing some cool stuff if you're into extreme music. None of it had the killer tones and equally killer playing as that from the 80s, though.

And I don't scoop the mids, ever. I hate it for the most part. If I want it to sound more "recorded," I'll set the treble at 12:00 or perhaps scoop them a bit. If necessary, I'll Autumn daylight savings time the mids. ie, turning them back an hour from say 2:00 to 1:00.


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## Hollowway (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Ratt's material from 81-91 was fucking great. Even the new track, Nobody Rides for Free, on the 81-91 best of. From what I understand, Lynch and DeMartini were both renting the same Marshall for albums, and were trying to outdo each other, particularly in the tone department. I would assume they are using Greenbacks, and they sound killer. That said, I think George Lynch is using something in addition to Greenbacks.
> 
> As for the 90s in general, fuck it. A few good bands, a few decent to cool albums, but mostly a load of junk. Though, if you venture outside of those genres that were popular in the 80s like hair metal, thrash metal, etc., there were quite a few bands like Cannibal Corpse, Death, and even some black metal bands that were doing some cool stuff if you're into extreme music. None of it had the killer tones and equally killer playing as that from the 80s, though.
> 
> And I don't scoop the mids, ever. I hate it for the most part. If I want it to sound more "recorded," I'll set the treble at 12:00 or perhaps scoop them a bit. If necessary, I'll Autumn daylight savings time the mids. ie, turning them back an hour from say 2:00 to 1:00.



Yeah, good point about the more underground metal in the 90s. There was some really good stuff then. But nothing you’d hear on the radio, or in general out and about. I even felt let down with Metallica’s 90s stuff. I was so into Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, etc, and just never really got into the black album.


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## prlgmnr (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I agree, but I think F.U.C.K. and Fair Warning have better tone. I also really like EVH's Plexi + Eventide chorus on 5150.


I've never actually listened to any of the Hagar material so I'll check out F.U.C.K


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, good point about the more underground metal in the 90s. There was some really good stuff then. But nothing you’d hear on the radio, or in general out and about. I even felt let down with Metallica’s 90s stuff. I was so into Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, etc, and just never really got into the black album.


It also wasn't party music, which was why metal was so popular and fun in the 80s. Once the 90s hit, everything was fucking dreary and dreadful. Third rate Black Sabbath wannabes trying to peddle doom and gloom to a bunch of disillusioned youngsters who have been raised by the television and suffer from what I called "Can't Keep Up with the Jones Depression Syndrome." They see shit on TV, realize their life is nothing like that, and feel like they aren't normal, when it's the garbage they're watching that isn't normal.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

prlgmnr said:


> I've never actually listened to any of the Hagar material so I'll check out F.U.C.K









By the way, F.U.C.K. is a Soldano SLO. I'm not sure if it was the album or the tour for said album, but OU812 may've been an 800 after the Plexi started to shit the bed and needed to be gone over. From what I understand, a few amp makers have gone over Eddie's original Plexi, and all have said it was basically just a bone stock Marshall. Crank it, Variac'd, and most important: boosted with an Echoplex, and that's basically the bulk of Eddie's tone. Don't forget a PAF and you're pretty much there. At points he may've used a JB, 59, or some sort of Duncan pickup, but the verdict is still out on that one, and pretty debated. Apparently around 79 or 80, he needed a pickup either fixed or made for Bumblebee, and Duncan did so, which I think is offered as a custom shop model. Later, around 5150 era, he may've used the aforementioned JB, 59, or whatever.

And now that that tangent is over...


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## farren (Sep 14, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, definitely one of my favorite tones of all time.
> 
> My ALL time favorite is the main riff of Ratt’s “Lay it Down.” As far as I’m concerned, the 90s was a lost decade of metal. I hated everything that came out, for the most part.
> 
> But farren, are you talking about when you’re playing at home, or listening to music / in a band setting? If I’m playing at home, nothing is more fun that a modded JCM800 with a scooped EQ or a Mark IV scooped EQ tone. But in a band setting, that ends up sounding too hollow and fizzy to me. It might sound odd, but in addition to that VH and Ratt tone, I also like bulb’s tone off of Periphery I. And I think it’s just because of how it sits in the mix. I hate his tone on amp demos, but love it when it’s recorded. And when I try to reproduce a good mid-centric guitar-in-mix sound at home, I have to scoop the EQ a bit.



Wow, hating '90s metal. I'm stunned. Let me recover my composure a bit...

Ok, I'm good. 

I'm talking about all of the above, really--practice tones around the house, studio tones, live tones. I think I mentioned in the OP that I appreciate that more mids are needed to cut live/in a recording (and especially when you have really low-tuned guitars competing with bass/kick, or multiple guitars of any tuning with similar tone that require differentiation) and like you say, it can sit just right in a mix, but those are the kinds of tone that often do not sound quite right standalone. And yet, I hear people using them as standalone tones more often. The more extreme middy tones, on the other hand, sound shitty to me even in a final mix...

Now that I think about it, the conflation of standalone tone and mix tone might have something to do with the prevalence of AxeFX/Kemper/Bias and sharing patches intended for recording purposes which end up being used for practice and everything else. Like others have said, a lot of tone preference is just what you're used to, and with preset-based modelers (and in my experience synths), it's easy to settle on a preset and adapt to it. I'm sure this is only a minor factor at best, but it's something I hadn't considered before.


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## JohnIce (Sep 14, 2017)

Interesting thread! I think there's a few reasons that together make modern metal so uninteresting to me:
- Every instrument needs to be super clear, whatever crazy EQ and compression it takes
- When everything's that clear, everyone can hear the slightest mistake so it's edited to robot perfection
- When everything is that perfect, the band wants everything to be at the forefront. "Listen to how tight my 16ths on the ride are!!" "Hey, over here, listen to how tight my palm mutes are instead!" "Nonono, listen to how huge my bass tone is instead, fuck those guys!"

I'm not too worried about it though, it's an exciting time for music right now and I'm hearing new stuff I love every day. Turns out I'm not gonna be a devout metal head for the rest of my life, but so what, I'm writing this on what is likely the last Apple computer I'll buy. Things you like change, so just find new things you like when that happens


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## exo (Sep 14, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> Interesting thread! I think there's a few reasons that together make modern metal so uninteresting to me:
> - Every instrument needs to be super clear, whatever crazy EQ and compression it takes
> - When everything's that clear, everyone can hear the slightest mistake so it's edited to robot perfection
> - When everything is that perfect, the band wants everything to be at the forefront. "Listen to how tight my 16ths on the ride are!!" "Hey, over here, listen to how tight my palm mutes are instead!" "Nonono, listen to how huge my bass tone is instead, fuck those guys!"
> ...




Well, I'm likely to listen to "metal" till the day I die.....but the first half of your post is pretty spot on. That "robotic precision" thing in so much modern music just kills me....UNLESS the genre or project absolutely calls for it. There's a lot of stuff out there that's popular that feels like I just wanna say "EDIT LESS! PLAY MORE!!!!" Those little imperfections, like the ever so slightly off time bit in Master of Puppets, or the way Orion's tempo walks around a little bit.....those are what allow music to breathe and be "alive".


Might just be that a good portion of my dislike of "5150 blended with........" type tones stems from an association with music that is just "too precise" on the production end of things for me.....food for thought. 

Cool thread, first time in a long time I've actually tried to analyze "why" certain tones appeal to me, and it's not a simple answer.....


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## couverdure (Sep 14, 2017)

jephjacques said:


> I'm just glad literally every band on the planet isn't using a super-scooped Dual Rectifier these days. And I'm sure in 10 years we'll all be able to instantly identify the sound of a 2010s era AxeFX preset and roll our eyes


I actually like the more "loose" sounding tone of the Dual Rectifier over those ultra-tight 5150+OD+gate (or probably an ENGL) type of sound that's present in a lot of newer metal. It also helps that the amp is also used a lot outside of metal because of its versatility.


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## JohnIce (Sep 14, 2017)

exo said:


> Well, I'm likely to listen to "metal" till the day I die.....but the first half of your post is pretty spot on. That "robotic precision" thing in so much modern music just kills me....UNLESS the genre or project absolutely calls for it. There's a lot of stuff out there that's popular that feels like I just wanna say "EDIT LESS! PLAY MORE!!!!" Those little imperfections, like the ever so slightly off time bit in Master of Puppets, or the way Orion's tempo walks around a little bit.....those are what allow music to breathe and be "alive".
> 
> 
> Might just be that a good portion of my dislike of "5150 blended with........" type tones stems from an association with music that is just "too precise" on the production end of things for me.....food for thought.
> ...



I think another aspect of it is that lots of metal is written on computers rather than in the rehearsal space these days. The great thing about writing/arranging together in a room is, to quote my bass player: "It doesn't sound good? Well play better then!"  If it sounds muddy in the rehearsal space, maybe playing an octave up/down or playing 8ths instead of 16ths is what's needed to clear up the mix, maybe you need to play a little off beat to let the bass out, it's easy to find out and it'll translate great onto a record. But if you write in a computer, and use EQ, compression, samples and editing to get it all to fit together, chances are that the arrangement doesn't stand very well on its own.


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## exo (Sep 14, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> I think another aspect of it is that lots of metal is written on computers rather than in the rehearsal space these days. The great thing about writing/arranging together in a room is, to quote my bass player: "It doesn't sound good? Well play better then!"  If it sounds muddy in the rehearsal space, maybe playing an octave up/down or playing 8ths instead of 16ths is what's needed to clear up the mix, maybe you need to play a little off beat to let the bass out, it's easy to find out and it'll translate great onto a record. But if you write in a computer, and use EQ, compression, samples and editing to get it all to fit together, chances are that the arrangement doesn't stand very well on its own.



I'll be blunt honest, I've never actually been in a band, and any "recording" I've done hasn't been much more than "GarageBand hacked together on a iPhone", so yeah it's "digital sims", but I've been inherently limited by the capabilities of working from an IOS device, and I simply CAN'T do the type of refinement and editing that a "modern studio" or even most folks working from a desktop with a bunch of plugins at their disposal can. 

I'd never even tried to lock in multiple tracks to a click before February of this year. I'm not exactly "tight" doing it either.

I STILL find I'm more pleased by the tones (Apple fake Marshall with treble booster on one side, Apple fake recto with the same booster on the other) than I am a shit-ton of modern recordings.......and while I would never classify my rudimentary attempts as "great tone", because it's obviously NOT, I'm beginning to think there's more to "awesome tone" than simply the tone.....


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm tired of super perfect bullshit music. Everything is right on the beat, and few players have swagger, attitude, or vibe. A great player knows when to play slightly behind the beat, right on the beat, or just ahead of the beat to push and pull a song. Maybe everyone needs to go back to doing drugs or something, because this new shit just ain't cutting the mustard.


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## bostjan (Sep 14, 2017)

Music used to be more collaborative. By snapping each drum hit to the grid, recording guitar bits one-note-at-a-time and at half speed, and autotuning the shit out of the vocalist, I think that collaboration has simply shifted from the musicians to the engineers and the DAW software and plugins.

When MIDI started taking the keyboard world by storm, I recall hearing someone say that music would one day become machines performing for other machines. While MIDI isn't exactly why or how that happened, it seems like it happened anyway.


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## JohnIce (Sep 14, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Music used to be more collaborative. By snapping each drum hit to the grid, recording guitar bits one-note-at-a-time and at half speed, and autotuning the shit out of the vocalist, I think that collaboration has simply shifted from the musicians to the engineers and the DAW software and plugins.
> 
> When MIDI started taking the keyboard world by storm, I recall hearing someone say that music would one day become machines performing for other machines. While MIDI isn't exactly why or how that happened, it seems like it happened anyway.



Speaking of, I find it pretty funny that so many modern metal producers/musicians tear their hair out over programmed drums, orchestral samples etc. sounding "fake" yet they go through a ton of trouble making their guitars, bass and vocals sound programmed  Like sure, spend a day "humanizing" your Superior Drummer midi but if your guitars are surgically time stretched and your growls are quad tracked and autotuned and vocaligned, why are you worried about your _drums_ sounding fake?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Music used to be more collaborative. By snapping each drum hit to the grid, recording guitar bits one-note-at-a-time and at half speed, and autotuning the shit out of the vocalist, I think that collaboration has simply shifted from the musicians to the engineers and the DAW software and plugins.
> 
> When MIDI started taking the keyboard world by storm, I recall hearing someone say that music would one day become machines performing for other machines. While MIDI isn't exactly why or how that happened, it seems like it happened anyway.


It'd make sense, especially when you hear them live, and they sound jack shit all like the record.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> Speaking of, I find it pretty funny that so many modern metal producers/musicians tear their hair out over programmed drums, orchestral samples etc. sounding "fake" yet they go through a ton of trouble making their guitars, bass and vocals sound programmed  Like sure, spend a day "humanizing" your Superior Drummer midi but if your guitars are surgically time stretched and your growls are quad tracked and autotuned and vocaligned, why are you worried about your _drums_ sounding fake?


Agreed. The entire production already sounds faker than Pamela Anderson's tits look, so what difference, at this point, does it make?


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## tedtan (Sep 14, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> 5 - 10 years ago, everyone was complaining about the muddy, scooped out metal tones.
> 
> Now we miss it.
> 
> What a world.



Everything moves in cycles.


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## farren (Sep 14, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Agreed. The entire production already sounds faker than *Pamela Anderson's tits* look, so what difference, at this point, does it make?



Oh shit, now we're seriously dating ourselves...


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## Sephiroth952 (Sep 14, 2017)

Fates Warning guitar tone on their last album has to be the best Modern/old school tone ive heard in a bit.


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## farren (Sep 14, 2017)

Sephiroth952 said:


> Fates Warning guitar tone on their last album has to be the best Modern/old school tone ive heard in a bit.



Agree. They've had great production values since the '90s. I don't know if you like the Arch era stuff, but the new Awaken the Guardian reunion live album/DVD/BD has Jim and Frank almost completely isolated to L and R channels and Jim's live tone (PRS/Sansamp/Recto) is outstanding.

Jim is also a god of the kind of deliberately loose playing people have mentioned. It's very hard to emulate his rhythm style.


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## fps (Sep 14, 2017)

The popular styles of tones today are pretty crap, it's all about how something sits in the correct range in a mix and cutting through in the right way and yadda yadda yadda. The guitars in a lot of heavy music therefore end up sounding really tinny and weak, it's all so *orchestrated*, and not in a good way, in a cold, calculating way that kinda takes the fun and heart out of a lot of tunes. I find a lot of modern tones very antiseptic. It's all built on logic, not on gut, or making room.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 14, 2017)

farren said:


> Oh shit, now we're seriously dating ourselves...


Well, I could've named someone else, but didn't know if they were relevant enough.


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## cwhitey2 (Sep 14, 2017)

I love the 'old school', those days are mostly gone.

My tone is based around my mids. Without the mids I'm lost as a guitarist. For reference i play in a single guitar band, so I'm not fight another guitarist.


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## couverdure (Sep 15, 2017)

Am I the only person in the world who likes DragonForce's guitar tone? It sounds pretty modern as far as their genre goes but the leads in the mix sound very clear and more "human" sounding despite being inhumanly technical (at least they don't sound like Guitar Pro 5 files), and the rhythms sound chunky for standard-tuned power chord riffing and blend well with the leads. Even their 7-string songs don't sound too muddy.

Their last two albums have the best tones they've ever recorded, which might have something to do with the band working with Jens Bogren.


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## Sephiroth952 (Sep 15, 2017)

couverdure said:


> Am I the only person in the world who likes DragonForce's guitar tone? It sounds pretty modern as far as their genre goes but the leads in the mix sound very clear and more "human" sounding despite being inhumanly technical (at least they don't sound like Guitar Pro 5 files), and the rhythms sound chunky for standard-tuned power chord riffing and blend well with the leads. Even their 7-string songs don't sound too muddy.
> 
> Their last two albums have the best tones they've ever recorded, which might have something to do with the band working with Jens Bogren.



I agree, since Sonic Firestorm Dragonforce have had a pretty solid guitar tone.


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## tedtan (Sep 15, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> I think another aspect of it is that lots of metal is written on computers rather than in the rehearsal space these days. The great thing about writing/arranging together in a room is, to quote my bass player: "It doesn't sound good? Well play better then!"  If it sounds muddy in the rehearsal space, maybe playing an octave up/down or playing 8ths instead of 16ths is what's needed to clear up the mix, maybe you need to play a little off beat to let the bass out, it's easy to find out and it'll translate great onto a record. But if you write in a computer, and use EQ, compression, samples and editing to get it all to fit together, chances are that the arrangement doesn't stand very well on its own.



I'm not sure it's that people are writing on computers because you could always write on paper, a tape machine or a MIDI sequencer in the past, too.

I think the common trend these days is that people record something while writing and call it done. There's no rewriting before taking it to the band, there is no rewriting with the band, there is no rewriting with the producer before recording the song "for real", there's just the original working demo from writing the song. That's fine for what it is, but for it to go from decent to good or great, it requires rewriting and rearranging, probably several times.


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## TedEH (Sep 15, 2017)

^ I think there's room to say that both of those things happen very frequently.


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## JohnIce (Sep 15, 2017)

tedtan said:


> I'm not sure it's that people are writing on computers because you could always write on paper, a tape machine or a MIDI sequencer in the past, too.
> 
> I think the common trend these days is that people record something while writing and call it done. There's no rewriting before taking it to the band, there is no rewriting with the band, there is no rewriting with the producer before recording the song "for real", there's just the original working demo from writing the song. That's fine for what it is, but for it to go from decent to good or great, it requires rewriting and rearranging, probably several times.



Well put, I think you're right. The computer isn't the problem so much as wanting to make your writing demo into the finished product. Once you've invested several days or weeks arranging and mixing a demo to the point that it's ready for release, it's very hard to find the motivation to go back and start making massive changes to the core song at that point. I don't think that was ever a problem before the home studio revolution of the last few years.

- edit - I realized this is less about tone now and more about songwriting, but I think they go hand in hand in this case. A well arranged song allows for big, natural tones, whereas a poorly arranged song might require a lot more shoehorning with EQ's and comps and gates to make everything fit into places where they're not supposed to be ideally.


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## Unleash The Fury (Sep 15, 2017)

tedtan said:


> I'm not sure it's that people are writing on computers because you could always write on paper, a tape machine or a MIDI sequencer in the past, too.
> 
> I think the common trend these days is that people record something while writing and call it done. There's no rewriting before taking it to the band, there is no rewriting with the band, there is no rewriting with the producer before recording the song "for real", there's just the original working demo from writing the song. That's fine for what it is, but for it to go from decent to good or great, it requires rewriting and rearranging, probably several times.



That works sometimes, but not always. Alot of times from my experience, ill finish a rough demo of a song then ill go and rearrange it TOO much. Tinker around with it too mang times before i say to myself, i should have just left it alone!

Again, it doesnt work that way all the time, but it doesnt hurt to try to make your songs better and better..........just, they may not actually come out better


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 16, 2017)

Fun thread, definitely things are way too precise now. I love listening to stuff with no click and feeling the band drift together and stuff like that its awesome.

Modern metal tone I love.... BTBAM seems to be happy medium between old school yet still super tight but also not djenty just super tight saturated and crisp. I love Mastodon's tone as well but find it has a certain "roundness" too it that just keeps it from being perfect. 

My JCM900 breathes fire in a way I will never be able to understand or explain, even with shit old tubes in it it can be the heaviest most brutal sounding thing you'll ever run into. maybe I'm not as metal as I think I am but oh well. 

A lot of early 2000s music recorded with Bogner Uberschall's is like my ideal tone like Coheed and Cambria from that era City of Evil album, and whatever Thrice used on Artist in the Ambulance, the tone is crisp almost to the point of being sterile, but it still has character.

Anyways I'm sure this made little to no sense as I am in the middle of a night shift. Lets keep talking tone!!!


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## Science_Penguin (Sep 16, 2017)

So, is there a decent example of this "modern metal tone" you guys are referencing? Like the quintessential "sterile," "overprocessed," whatever you wanna call it, tone that just springs to mind when the term "modern metal" is brought up?

Cause, I mean, you COULD be a tonal dinosaur, and I COULD very well be one of these "damn kids today what with the Pokey-mans and such," but I have no frame of reference. There's tones I strive for when I'm trying to put something Metal together, like Nightwish and Melancholy Beast-era Pyramaze, but I haven't got a clue if that's something that would be considered "oldschool" or "modern."


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## DudeManBrother (Sep 16, 2017)

^ I'm also curious what is considered modern metal tone. Is it the djent, gated to high hell sound? Not a huge fan and a bit of a tonal dinosaur I suppose. 

I grew up listening to Chris Barns led Cannibal Corpse, Death, Atheist, Entombed etc. and all of these have a fizzy inarticulate quality to them compared to modern recordings. 

I am a fan of more modern recording practices in that it's easy to discern what each instrument is doing though. But each style has its place. A great song stands out despite the tone, though it could be even better with the right balance. I like more modern bands like Spawn of Possession, A Loathing Requiem, Gorod etc. moreso from a writing standpoint than a tonal standpoint I suppose. I don't knock their recordings any more than the bands that started death metal.


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## exo (Sep 16, 2017)

Science_Penguin said:


> So, is there a decent example of this "modern metal tone" you guys are referencing? Like the quintessential "sterile," "overprocessed," whatever you wanna call it, tone that just springs to mind when the term "modern metal" is brought up?
> 
> Cause, I mean, you COULD be a tonal dinosaur, and I COULD very well be one of these "damn kids today what with the Pokey-mans and such," but I have no frame of reference. There's tones I strive for when I'm trying to put something Metal together, like Nightwish and Melancholy Beast-era Pyramaze, but I haven't got a clue if that's something that would be considered "oldschool" or "modern."




For ME, i'm referencing the "djent" stuff, and a lot of the more modern deathcore tones, and ADMITTEDLY, a lot of it is more a "general perception" thing than a "specific examples" deal.

One of my favorite tones is Jon Shaffer's rhythm tone on Horror Show and the S/T Demons & Wizards. Snarling and aggressive edge to it but will still thump your chest palm muting, with a definite foundation in the "hot rodded Marshall" territory.


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## KailM (Sep 16, 2017)

DudeManBrother said:


> ^ I'm also curious what is considered modern metal tone. Is it the djent, gated to high hell sound? Not a huge fan and a bit of a tonal dinosaur I suppose.
> .



That's kind of what I'm referring to when I get up on my soapbox; the "prog" metal that is really NOT progressive at all because all 10,000 of those bands sound exactly the same, death-core, and straight up djent. They all use the same guitar tone and production methods.

For me, it's the point where the guitar tones and riffs are so tight they don't sound like a real amp anymore (most of that is done in production). And everything is EQ'd so precisely that no instrument is allowed to overlap. Drums are EQ'd, compressed, and processed to the point where they sound like someone clacking away on an old typewriter -- not like real drums.

But the worst of it for me is just that gawdawful twangy-duck-quack guitar tone that doesn't have any warmth or saturation or low end thump.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 16, 2017)

KailM said:


> That's kind of what I'm referring to when I get up on my soapbox; the "prog" metal that is really NOT progressive at all because all 10,000 of those bands sound exactly the same, death-core, and straight up djent. They all use the same guitar tone and production methods.
> 
> For me, it's the point where the guitar tones and riffs are so tight they don't sound like a real amp anymore (most of that is done in production). And everything is EQ'd so precisely that no instrument is allowed to overlap. Drums are EQ'd, compressed, and processed to the point where they sound like someone clacking away on an old typewriter -- not like real drums.
> 
> But the worst of it for me is just that gawdawful twangy-duck-quack guitar tone that doesn't have any warmth or saturation or low end thump.


That's because they all have the same pod/Axe FX patches with the same couple lazy ass producers making that shit. Garbage in, garbage out for the most part.


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## TedEH (Sep 16, 2017)

This thread reminds me a bit of the reaction I had to the most recent Amon Amarth release. My first impression was that the whole production was way too shiny, way too polished, for what I was expecting. Their older releases had a looser, slower, chuggy, raw kind of sound to my ears- and I thought that really suited the style. My brain wants to say it was a Recto sound, and I think some of it was. I read in some places that H&K and/or Krank amps were involved, but I have no real idea. But when I heard the new one my brain immediately said "I bet this is a 5150, or some kind of model of one". And I think that reaction comes from the sound being too fast and clean. It doesn't have that sloppy, raw, slow chunk they used to have.

Edit: Some googling suggests it was Kemper profiles from EVH/Peavey amps soooo I'm not too far off.

I've also started appreciating fuzzier tones, doomy tones, crunchy tones, etc. instead of just the same ol high-gain-with-a-boost. I also get really picky about clean tones. I think most metal bands have really sh*tty clean tones. AAL is particular bad for it- I appreciate the playing, but the clean tone is terrible. I think it's in part because they don't know how to get that tone (stuff like playing all your cleans on the same metal-oriented bridge pickup), but also because cleans are more susceptible to the "tone is in your hands" thing. Poor picking dynamics come out pretty clearly with clean tones.


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## Andromalia (Sep 16, 2017)

Science_Penguin said:


> So, is there a decent example of this "modern metal tone" you guys are referencing? Like the quintessential "sterile," "overprocessed," whatever you wanna call it, tone that just springs to mind when the term "modern metal" is brought up?



To me it's more of a production thing than a guitar tone per se. All this brickwalled stuff, it's not just djent. I immensely dislike the sounds in Devin Townend's albums for exemple, while I just love his live shows. (Seen him 4 times) That dude should be forbidden to come nearer than 5 meters from a console and should give the keys to his live engineer.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 16, 2017)

Brickwalling sounds like trash. I prefer 80s CDs before everything was brickwalled, because they sound great when you crank them up, and only get better the louder you play them assuming the stereo is nice.


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## KailM (Sep 16, 2017)

TedEH said:


> This thread reminds me a bit of the reaction I had to the most recent Amon Amarth release. My first impression was that the whole production was way too shiny, way too polished, for what I was expecting. Their older releases had a looser, slower, chuggy, raw kind of sound to my ears- and I thought that really suited the style. My brain wants to say it was a Recto sound, and I think some of it was. I read in some places that H&K and/or Krank amps were involved, but I have no real idea. But when I heard the new one my brain immediately said "I bet this is a 5150, or some kind of model of one". And I think that reaction comes from the sound being too fast and clean. It doesn't have that sloppy, raw, slow chunk they used to have.
> 
> Edit: Some googling suggests it was Kemper profiles from EVH/Peavey amps soooo I'm not too far off.
> 
> I've also started appreciating fuzzier tones, doomy tones, crunchy tones, etc. instead of just the same ol high-gain-with-a-boost. I also get really picky about clean tones. I think most metal bands have really sh*tty clean tones. AAL is particular bad for it- I appreciate the playing, but the clean tone is terrible. I think it's in part because they don't know how to get that tone (stuff like playing all your cleans on the same metal-oriented bridge pickup), but also because cleans are more susceptible to the "tone is in your hands" thing. Poor picking dynamics come out pretty clearly with clean tones.



I had the same reaction to Jomsviking -- I thought it sounded way too clean and polished. Not a terrible record by any means, but overly produced IMO. For what it's worth, I think they've been using 6505+'s for a very long time. It's their production that has gotten cleaner and more modern incrementally with each record. "With Oden By Our Side" and "Twilight of the Thunder God" sounded awesome in my opinion, and those were 6505s. 

I might be considered a hypocrite for criticising the 'modern' tone while I personally use a 6505 and a 6505+ myself. Those two amps are probably the most abused amps in the business. That said, I find especially my 6505 to have an awesome tone for more old-schoolish death metal and black metal -- what changes it out of that typical "modern" sound for me is an EQ pedal in the loop with some selective cuts and boosts. Here's a cover I did a few months back that, IMO doesn't sound like the typical '5150' sound at all -- yet that's what it is: https://soundcloud.com/kailm-1/on-the-way-to-vigrid


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## bhakan (Sep 16, 2017)

For everyone craving rawer, angrier tones, maybe listen to some modern hardcore. HM2's are everywhere and everyone not using them has some other way of getting a super raw pissed off sound. The trend right now in hardcore is to ape old school death and thrash type riffs so it's essentially just old metal with yellier vocals and some mosh riffs anyway.


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## Hollowway (Sep 17, 2017)

Normally I’d agree with the pendulum swinging back the other way idea, but these days I don’t know. Certainly the past has shown us this, and given us Nirvana after hair metal got over produced, and punk before that, etc. But these days, much more music is consumed in much smaller bites, it’s hard to say whether our little corner of the universe will change, or if people will just migrate a bit more toward already existing organic, less quantized/processed music.


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## farren (Sep 17, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Normally I’d agree with the pendulum swinging back the other way idea, but these days I don’t know. Certainly the past has shown us this, and given us Nirvana after hair metal got over produced, and punk before that, etc. But these days, much more music is consumed in much smaller bites, it’s hard to say whether our little corner of the universe will change, *or if people will just migrate a bit more toward already existing organic, less quantized/processed music.*



Unfortunately many musicians (writers in particular) and producers are control freaks, and it's so goddamn easy today to be a control freak because of all the technologies discussed already. It took some discipline not to try one more take of a solo when working with tape. Now it takes discipline not to do one more 3 second take of one part of one riff, and if one is after perfection, there's quite literally no downside to doing that considering how little time it takes and the fact that anyone can record album-worthy quality guitar in an ever-more-affordable home studio.

I don't know if things will swing back either, but I doubt it as it seems like a big ask to decrease the granularity of the production process in a similar way that asking a 30-something to go back to dial-up Internet access is a big ask. There will always be extreme examples of going against the grain (if grunge was a moderate response to over-produced hair metal, then early '90s black metal was the extreme response), but I don't see anything dragging the baseline back down in terms of polish or tone, or even lowering the perfection/'tightness' bar in a more subtle way. The 'loudness problem' in particular has been discussed for decades now, and it's only gotten worse--no reversal there unless you count boutique vinyl resurgence which I think is more popular with collectors than listeners.

I'm not even sure we live in the same world today where a backlash against popular music which has an industry-wide impact can even happen. I mean, we're on a forum where most of us are into many of the same kinds of music. None of us feel held down by what terrestrial radio or MTV is playing, and I doubt many of us even have a clue what that is. The different scenes are all happily accommodated via social media, internet radio, etc., and are more insulated from one another than ever. When bands choose to go a more organic route, I think it's going to be a personal decision devoid of outside pressure, and I'm doubtful it will ever be a prevailing trend to do so.


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## PunkBillCarson (Sep 17, 2017)

I really cannot stand that high mid, overly gated, overly anal sound that has run rampant today. Granted, I use a 6505+ which has more of that high mid emphasis, but to counteract that, I dial in enough lows and gain to piss off the modern crowd, believe me, and running guitars with Dissonant Aggressors and Black Winters does nothing to endear me to that crowd, I promise you. I'm not sure where this obsession started with making the guitar sound more and more like Donald Duck every day.


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## exo (Sep 17, 2017)

I'm a Black Winter user as well. Go figure 

Curious how many of us in this thread are 35 and up.......I'm 42, and starting to wonder if a bunch of us just came of age when a specific type of tone was omnipresent......


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## PunkBillCarson (Sep 17, 2017)

Well, I'm 28 and I've personally never been a fan of the new sound that has plagued so many records these days. It's like they avoid dialing in bass like it's a plague.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 17, 2017)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Well, I'm 28 and I've personally never been a fan of the new sound that has plagued so many records these days. It's like they avoid dialing in bass like it's a plague.


They avoid it like vampires avoid sunlight.


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## fps (Sep 17, 2017)

farren said:


> I'm not even sure we live in the same world today where a backlash against popular music which has an industry-wide impact can even happen. I mean, we're on a forum where most of us are into many of the same kinds of music. None of us feel held down by what terrestrial radio or MTV is playing, and I doubt many of us even have a clue what that is.



Pretty much. Collective culture is collapsing.


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## couverdure (Sep 17, 2017)

PunkBillCarson said:


> I'm not sure where this obsession started with making the guitar sound more and more like Donald Duck every day.


I believe this all started with Meshuggah when they started to use lower tunings and tried to make them sound not too flubby.

I also have the same epiphany as well. The one reason why I can't stand Jason Richardson is because of his guitar tone; he tunes to Drop G with 11-58 gauge strings on his standard-scaled EBMMs, the lowest notes don't even sound low, and his leads sound so ultra fake despite being a capable player.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 17, 2017)

Whatever fucking happened to E, Eb or D standard [or drop D equivalents] into a Mark or Marshall amp? Seriously, kids. Knock this shit off right now!






I'm half serious, half joking.


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## farren (Sep 17, 2017)

My guitars are quite literally in E, Eb, and D standard (and a 7 in B), and go into a Mark amp.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 17, 2017)

farren said:


> My guitars are quite literally in E, Eb, and D standard (and a 7 in B), and go into a Mark amp.


Listen to this dude. You don't need 9 strings tuned to Drop bfffffff into digital modellers and shit.


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## farren (Sep 17, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Listen to this dude. You don't need 9 strings tuned to Drop bfffffff into digital modellers and shit.



You know, I really shouldn't say this on _this_ forum of all places, but I have a problem with the timbre of overdriven notes below about Bb1 or A1. I think 8-strings are cool as hell for clean music, but I'm a guy who doesn't even like the sound of light break-up bass guitar. I don't know why. That's one thing that amp settings can't change for me.


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## exo (Sep 18, 2017)

My main 6 strings are E/Eb standard/Drop C#, i keep one in Bb/Drop Ab, 7s are Bb/dropAb, and I have an 8 in drop Eb that I'm currently considering the merits of owning since I have like ONE group of original riffs I play on it. I almost ALWAYS reach for the 6 strings first.

I DO use a modeler because I primarily play in my livingroom, and have a houseful of little ears to worry about, volume wise......but it's almost always the same "hot-rodded JCM800" patch on my V-amp Pro. Lately I've found a "dual amp" patch on my HD500 (Engl F-ball/Bogner mix) that's got my interest as well.....both of those get run into the FX return of an amp with an el34 power section, so when I actually GET the opportunity to turn up, I DO....

Were I single in my own house, or an a functioning band, I wouldn't use digital sims, I'd have the "real deal".....


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 18, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Listen to this dude. You don't need 9 strings tuned to Drop bfffffff into digital modellers and shit.


the problem with downtuning on an 8 string is that most pickups suck at accurately reproducing notes below D#1 imo. The only pickups I've had do a good job with notes that low on a 27" scale or longer were the omega, elysian, x-bar and lithiums. Every other pickup I tried sounded like wet shit laden farts below D#. I know what you mean about needing to downtune much, Lamb of God is usually in Drop D and they sound heavy as fuck, same with Gojira in Drop C, some of their riffs are so fucking heavy.

Since some of you old crusty fucks like to complain about progressive modern metal, I give you the 4 best examples of modern prog:
Haken: 
Twelve Foot Ninja: 
Caligula's Horse: 
Karnivool:


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## PunkBillCarson (Sep 18, 2017)

Yeah well, I'm a crusty youngish old fuck who likes my bass in my guitar tone.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 18, 2017)

exo said:


> My main 6 strings are E/Eb standard/Drop C#, i keep one in Bb/Drop Ab, 7s are Bb/dropAb, and I have an 8 in drop Eb that I'm currently considering the merits of owning since I have like ONE group of original riffs I play on it. I almost ALWAYS reach for the 6 strings first.
> 
> I DO use a modeler because I primarily play in my livingroom, and have a houseful of little ears to worry about, volume wise......but it's almost always the same "hot-rodded JCM800" patch on my V-amp Pro. Lately I've found a "dual amp" patch on my HD500 (Engl F-ball/Bogner mix) that's got my interest as well.....both of those get run into the FX return of an amp with an el34 power section, so when I actually GET the opportunity to turn up, I DO....
> 
> Were I single in my own house, or an a functioning band, I wouldn't use digital sims, I'd have the "real deal".....


You don't have to explain yourself or anything. Like I said, I was joking.



KnightBrolaire said:


> the problem with downtuning on an 8 string is that most pickups suck at accurately reproducing notes below D#1 imo. The only pickups I've had do a good job with notes that low on a 27" scale or longer were the omega, elysian, x-bar and lithiums. Every other pickup I tried sounded like wet shit laden farts below D#. I know what you mean about needing to downtune much, Lamb of God is usually in Drop D and they sound heavy as fuck, same with Gojira in Drop C, some of their riffs are so fucking heavy.
> 
> Since some of you old crusty fucks like to complain about progressive modern metal, I give you the 4 best examples of modern prog:


BOOOO! Rush, King's X, or gtfo.

Agree with the rest of your post though.



PunkBillCarson said:


> Yeah well, I'm a crusty youngish old fuck who likes my bass in my guitar tone.


I like the bass in the bass guitar, but I think the guitar still needs enough bass and low mids to sound right. Otherwise, if you barely have any low end and low mids, then boost with a tube screamer or similar, you end up with a mosquito tone that sounds horrible.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 18, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> You don't have to explain yourself or anything. Like I said, I was joking.
> 
> 
> BOOOO! Rush, King's X, or gtfo.
> ...


psssh I find it ironic that you listen to prog but can't expand your musical horizons  Spock's Beard might be more up your alley.


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## farren (Sep 18, 2017)

Or Enchant. Enchant is the one prog band which I can't imagine anyone not liking at least _something_ from.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 18, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> psssh I find it ironic that you listen to prog but can't expand your musical horizons  Spock's Beard might be more up your alley.


Those are exceptions. I actually don't care for prog all that much.


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## exo (Sep 18, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the problem with downtuning on an 8 string is that most pickups suck at accurately reproducing notes below D#1 imo. The only pickups I've had do a good job with notes that low on a 27" scale or longer were the omega, elysian, x-bar and lithiums. Every other pickup I tried sounded like wet shit laden farts below D#. I know what you mean about needing to downtune much, Lamb of God is usually in Drop D and they sound heavy as fuck, same with Gojira in Drop C, some of their riffs are so fucking heavy.
> 
> Since some of you old crusty fucks like to complain about progressive modern metal, I give you the 4 best examples of modern prog:




The only one of those I even remotely liked was Caligula's Horse.

When I want progressive metal, to me that's older Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Redemption, Arch/Matheos, maybe the Australian band Alchemist from the last 90's.....that sort of stuff......and most of THISE don't have my preferred guitar tone in their music, either


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 18, 2017)

I try and keep my 6 string in standard, I might set my Epiphone up for 1/2 step down or drop D, but I can always throw my Gibson into Drop D without too much change in playability ect.

I have an 8 string I tune it EAeadgbe I mostly use it for clean messing around, I may sell it at some point but I like having it just to make myself think outside the box a little and I can add some lower registers to stuff if I want without trying to put my 24.75 inch scale into positions it really isn't meant for.

And that goes into my EVH or my Marshall although I have a modeller for fun too, hopefully I'll be able to snag a JP-2C or a TC-50 to use with the helix as the ultimate multifx/midi controller rig.


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## Edika (Sep 18, 2017)

I have a few 6 string guitars all in E standard. I tried to set two at Drop C and C standard but one had a JB in the bridge and the other the SD Blackouts. Both sounded like wet farts and I'm also guessing that me not spending too much time EQing was partly to blame. Bringing theme back to E standard and E flat solved the issues . I'm also having trouble dialing a good tone with my 7 strings even though it's a combination of pickups and guitar mostly.

I love the sound of low tuned guitars in records and while I do understand the difference of playing with people than by yourself, I prefer more classic pickups in more standard tuning. For example, every clip I've heard of the Ionizer 7 sounds great but it sounds weak and super honky/nasaly whatever I do with it. Maybe it's the guitar it's in but it doesn't hit the amp as hard as I'd like to. It's super clear but I do get good clarity with my other pickups. I think mostly it's the voicing that's bugging me while I can certainly see how it will work with all the more modern genres.

So, so far my favorite pickups have been the JB and 59 combo, D-Activators which I like but find a bit dark, ToneZone and Air Norton and I even like the Carvin C22's even though I feel /that they have a lot of high and high mid frequencies. On the 7 string front so far the best sound I've got is the classic EMG 81-7/707 on a 27" scale guitar.


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## JohnIce (Sep 18, 2017)

One thing I've noticed when I started making more electronic music is just how much the low mids of a guitar make it cut through a dense soundscape. When you have as many layers of synths, reverbs and huge drums and bass as many modern metal bands do, your typical metal rig isn't really voiced for that environment. I find a TS-boosted 5150 or Recto going into a 4x12 with V30's with an SM57 on it is TERRIBLE for fitting into that type of mix, because the low mids are simply not there. That classic setup was made popular by bands that only had guitar, bass and vocals and then it sounds massive, but crank the sub, Darkglass the bass, throw huge samples, reverbs and Omnisphere into the mix and that guitar sound turns into static background noise. An AC30 combo would probably make that drop F# sing in such a mix


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 18, 2017)

exo said:


> The only one of those I even remotely liked was Caligula's Horse.
> 
> When I want progressive metal, to me that's older Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Redemption, Arch/Matheos, maybe the Australian band Alchemist from the last 90's.....that sort of stuff......and most of THISE don't have my preferred guitar tone in their music, either


they're all worth delving into, especially haken and Karnivool's backlogs. Haken gets very rush/DT esque on Affinity, though the album I posted is more King Crimson esque.


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## InCasinoOut (Sep 18, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Whatever fucking happened to E, Eb or D standard [or drop D equivalents] into a Mark or Marshall amp? Seriously, kids. Knock this shit off right now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hah, this is exactly the route I found myself going down! When I first joined this site in 2008, I was a djent kid with my Agile 7 string in drop A, into a Pod HD500. Now I'm almost 30 and it's sixers in E, Eb, and D standard into a Mark V 35. Back then I always thought I wanted a fancy Diezel/Engl/Bogner as a dream rig, but as I learned more about what I wanted in my tone and what pleased my ears, I found I loved the sound of AC30s, JCM800s, and Mark IIC+s. With my Mark V and a Friedman BE-OD, I've been very happy with the tone I get now. I know JCMs and older Marks were quintessential to old-school thrash and metal in general, but I'm not even into thrash or much 80s/90s metal, I just love the sound of those amps even though I enjoy playing tech-death and proggy stuff.

Granted, I can still enjoy the sound and guitar tones of modern metal that others hate in this thread, but I was surprised to find myself leaning towards amps I overlooked when I was younger.


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## mongey (Sep 18, 2017)

FWIW I believe tuning way down low creates way more limitations for the guitar and a band than it opens new doors .

it narrows what you can do sonically , narrows what your bass player can do with their playing and tone 

disclaimer- yeah I'm an old dude


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## couverdure (Sep 18, 2017)

I'm probably the youngest person in this thread (18). I like tones to have a little polish but not too overly tight, so grittiness is necessary to make electric guitars sound like electric guitars.


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## JohnIce (Sep 19, 2017)

mongey said:


> FWIW I believe tuning way down low creates way more limitations for the guitar and a band than it opens new doors .
> 
> it narrows what you can do sonically , narrows what your bass player can do with their playing and tone
> 
> disclaimer- yeah I'm an old dude



I can't say I agree... how do you mean? If you want to play and sound like you would in E standard, and have the bass play an octave lower, then yeah tuning very low is shooting yourself in the foot, but if you're doing it to NOT sound and play like you do in E standard, it opens up 100% new options. Not exactly narrowing anything.



couverdure said:


> I'm probably the youngest person in this thread (18). I like tones to have a little polish but not too overly tight, so grittiness is necessary to make electric guitars sound like electric guitars.



Spot on. I think everyone has heard "guitar" sounds on keyboards that sound ridiculous, even though they are samples of actual guitar. So it's not so much the timbre of a guitar that makes it what it is, it's the player's interaction with the instrument. Editing that out just makes it sound like a rompler.


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## exo (Sep 19, 2017)

mongey said:


> FWIW I believe tuning way down low creates way more limitations for the guitar and a band than it opens new doors .
> 
> it narrows what you can do sonically , narrows what your bass player can do with their playing and tone
> 
> disclaimer- yeah I'm an old dude



Nah, if it "limits" folks, then they aren't very creative in their use of their instruments. 

Play a fretless. 

Send the bass up on register. 

Use it as a melodic lead instrument while the super low guitar holds down the low end rhythm. 

Have a super low tuned guitar play a harmony line with the bass. 

Play a pop and slap funk line under a heavy groove riff.

Play mostly in the standard guitar range on an 8, only going down to the low octave for points of emphasis.....



Being creatively limited is something that falls on the player, not the range you're tuned to. 

(.......this post was brought to you by a creatively limited guitar player.)


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## KailM (Sep 19, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Since some of you old crusty fucks like to complain about progressive modern metal, I give you the 4 best examples of modern prog:
> Haken:
> Twelve Foot Ninja:
> Caligula's Horse:
> Karnivool:





Bah, humbug! Get off my lawn!

Those examples are exactly what I can't stand about "progressive" metal. Let's take a look at the term "progressive." It means to push the boundaries of what's normal or typical. By nature, "prog" stops being progressive as soon as it is copied. The bands above sound exactly the same as the next band in that genre.

Haken: I couldn't get past the silly random tempo changes and tonal shifts. That shit was annoying when Mr. Bungle and Between the Buried and Me did it years ago. Still annoying. And it was indeed complete with duck-quacking guitar tone. Unlistenable. Lead tones were alright though, I guess.

Twelve Foot Ninja: More polyrhythmic syncopated Donald Duck guitar-speak.

Caligula's Horse: Blatant modern Opeth ripoff, and I don't like modern Opeth either. They were only "progressive" _before_ they became a "prog" band. They stopped being progressive with the album Heritage.

Karnivool: The only band out of this list that I found listenable -- though not really my thing.

Realize that this is just my opinion -- music is subjective, completely.
I just think the term "progressive" gets applied way too often, and it is inaccurately applied. For something to be truly progressive, it needs to have an original, unique sound. Here are some bands that I consider to be truly progressive, at least in their time:

Pink Floyd
Radiohead
Pre-Heritage Opeth
Enslaved
Tool


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 19, 2017)

KailM said:


> Bah, humbug! Get off my lawn!
> 
> Those examples are exactly what I can't stand about "progressive" metal. Let's take a look at the term "progressive." It means to push the boundaries of what's normal or typical. By nature, "prog" stops being progressive as soon as it is copied. The bands above sound exactly the same as the next band in that genre.
> 
> ...


 There is no truly original sound, only how the artists take their influences and meld them together.
Haken is easily the proggiest of the bands I listed. If you listen to the record from beginning to end you'll hear how "prog" they really are. The Mountain is an eccentric, technical and strangely listenable album. They also have huge tonal variety in their guitar parts. I'd say they have more in common with Dream Theater/King Crimson than Mr. Bungle or BTBAM
this song is almost Tool-like in parts:

Twelve Foot Ninja is also worth giving another shot. They're probably the most accessible of the bands I listed, though if you're not into indulgent tonal shifts/temp changes you'll probably hate their other stuff.


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## farren (Sep 19, 2017)

You only really 'sound like' your tuning if you are compelled to play a lot of open strings, particularly the low E (or whatever is lowest on your guitar). It's tempting, especially in metal, to always have the open low string sound at some point in a song. This is one thing which separates modern guitarists/bassists from classical players of string instruments.


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

The thing is not ALL modern metal tones are that way.

One of my fave modern metal rhythm tones is off Heart of a Cowards 2nd album severance. Guitars on that use loads of treble for cut and even have the mids and bass cut a little.
Not everyone does that periphery thing of boosting mids.
I dont personally and i still cut just fine at practices and live.
So i would say to you OP, that your way of setting up a metal tone, is not actually that different from alot of modern metal players now. Granted some do things differently but alot dont.
Its more technique thats changed imo not tone as such.


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## mongey (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> Nah, if it "limits" folks, then they aren't very creative in their use of their instruments.
> 
> Play a fretless.
> 
> ...


to me just playing the bass parts on the guitar is not really that creative . each their own

yeah there's stuff you can do it,of course . But I feel the limitations it creates on setting up your tone and your band mates tones is detrimanetla. Unless you are meshuggah and do a very specific thing with it

I love meshuggah ,listen to them allot , but I wouldn't call their last album very creative


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## exo (Sep 19, 2017)

mongey said:


> to me just playing the bass parts on the guitar is not really that creative . each their own
> 
> yeah there's stuff you can do it,of course . But I feel the limitations it creates on setting up your tone and your band mates tones is detrimanetla. Unless you are meshuggah and do a very specific thing with it
> 
> I love meshuggah ,listen to them allot , but I wouldn't call their last album very creative



I actually listed several ways to do things that are NOT "just playing the bass parts on the guitar"......but thanks for responding in a way that nicely reinforces my point about "limitations" being about the player's approach to things.


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## mongey (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> I actually listed several ways to do things that are NOT "just playing the bass parts on the guitar"......but thanks for responding in a way that nicely reinforces my point about "limitations" being about the player's approach to things.



_Send the bass up on register. 

Use it as a melodic lead instrument while the super low guitar holds down the low end rhythm. 

Have a super low tuned guitar play a harmony line with the bass. 

Play a pop and slap funk line under a heavy groove riff._

Is that not all lead to play the bass on the guitar 

its all good man. its all an opinion


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## exo (Sep 19, 2017)

mongey said:


> _Send the bass up on register.
> 
> Use it as a melodic lead instrument while the super low guitar holds down the low end rhythm.
> 
> ...



No, they are NOT "just playing bass on the guitar". 3 of them don't even mention what you do with the guitar, it's different options you could do WITH THE BASS, rather than just do the same old same old. You don't HAVE to occupy the same sonic space just because the guitar is tuned down to subterranean depths, and even if a guitar and bass are both tuned to the same "e" note, well, a 5 string bass still has another string lower than that if one prefers to approach things in a prototypical "traditional" manner.

I wouldn't call harmonizing a line "just playing bass on a guitar", nor is super low guitar riffing while the bass goes up in register, either. Even if a low tuned guitar occupies the same end of the frequency spectrum, there's a difference in timbre and feel between them.

And yeah, it's very much a "to each his own" deal about whether or not one LIKES the other options, or can come up with more ways to approach it than I've tried to point out.......but it's not the "tone" or tuning that limit things, it's the player's approach to the instruments that make the difference.


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## mongey (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> No, they are NOT "just playing bass on the guitar". 3 of them don't even mention what you do with the guitar, it's different options you could do WITH THE BASS, rather than just do the same old same old. You don't HAVE to occupy the same sonic space just because the guitar is tuned down to subterranean depths, and even if a guitar and bass are both tuned to the same "e" note, well, a 5 string bass still has another string lower than that if one prefers to approach things in a prototypical "traditional" manner.
> 
> I wouldn't call harmonizing a line "just playing bass on a guitar", nor is super low guitar riffing while the bass goes up in register, either. Even if a low tuned guitar occupies the same end of the frequency spectrum, there's a difference in timbre and feel between them.
> 
> And yeah, it's very much a "to each his own" deal about whether or not one LIKES the other options, or can come up with more ways to approach it than I've tried to point out.......but it's not the "tone" or tuning that limit things, it's the player's approach to the instruments that make the difference.



all good man. whats point is a forum if people don't have differing opinions


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> The only one of those I even remotely liked was Caligula's Horse.
> 
> When I want progressive metal, to me that's older Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Redemption, Arch/Matheos, maybe the Australian band Alchemist from the last 90's.....that sort of stuff......and most of THISE don't have my preferred guitar tone in their music, either


Exactly. The modern definition of prog is "not all my riffs are breakdowns and I am played a few complex chords to feign deep knowledge of music theory"

/haterade


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> The only one of those I even remotely liked was Caligula's Horse.
> 
> When I want progressive metal, to me that's older Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Redemption, Arch/Matheos, maybe the Australian band Alchemist from the last 90's.....that sort of stuff......and most of THISE don't have my preferred guitar tone in their music, either


Exactly. The modern definition of prog is "not all my riffs are breakdowns and I played a few complex chords to feign deep knowledge of music theory"

The term is being used as though the definition has remained consistent between the large periods of time covered in the op

/haterade


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## JohnIce (Sep 20, 2017)

Konfyouzd said:


> Exactly. The modern definition of prog is "not all my riffs are breakdowns and I am played a few complex chords to feign deep knowledge of music theory"
> 
> /haterade



Don't forget lyrics with big words to feign deep knowledge of natural science and psychology  I once heard a song that had "hegelian dichotomy" in the verse. Growled  It wasn't great.


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## prlgmnr (Sep 20, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> Don't forget lyrics with big words to feign deep knowledge of natural science and psychology  I once heard a song that had "hegelian dichotomy" in the verse. Growled  It wasn't great.


Yeah, should have saved that shit for the chorus.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 20, 2017)

Sounds like people just arent listening to enough Baroness


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 20, 2017)

Dineley said:


> Sounds like people just arent listening to enough Baroness


I thought about recommending them but I figured a lot of people in here had heard of them. The Sword also has some proggy moments on Apocryphon.


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## couverdure (Sep 20, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> Don't forget lyrics with big words to feign deep knowledge of natural science and psychology  I once heard a song that had "hegelian dichotomy" in the verse. Growled  It wasn't great.


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## Element0s (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm not into the djent tone at all but I do like modern lead guitar sounds. I think my favourite albums from a production standpoint would be Blind Guardian's _Imaginations From The Other Side_, Solstice _New Dark Age_, _Crest of the Martyrs_ by Twisted Tower Dire and maybe like _Empire_ from Queensryche or something. As long as the tone and production of a record supports the aesthetic and the goals of the band/song/album then it'll probably work for me.


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## farren (Sep 20, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> Don't forget lyrics with big words to feign deep knowledge of natural science and psychology  I once heard a song that had "*hegelian dichotomy*" in the verse. Growled  It wasn't great.



I prefer the death metal version of "Kegelian mucotomy".


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## Unleash The Fury (Sep 20, 2017)

While were talkinh about modern "prog" bands dont forget that your band name has to be a plural noun, or the plural version of any given single-word.

Rectangles
Architects
Origins
Oceans
Reasons
Suuns
Battles
Textures
Volumes
Structures
Circles
Intervals
Entities
Sees
Visions
Novelists
Fractals
Anciients (this band i actually like)
Depths
Skylines
Cycles
Clocks
Numbers
Memoirs
Wolves

........Just to name a couple


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## JohnIce (Sep 20, 2017)

couverdure said:


>




Holy nuts, that's spot on  Took me several minutes to realize it was even a spoof.


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## Supernaut (Sep 20, 2017)

It would be interesting if they made a Spinal Tap for the modern era, what would the band be called? Probably something from that list ^


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## Science_Penguin (Sep 20, 2017)

Supernaut said:


> It would be interesting if they made a Spinal Tap for the modern era, what would the band be called? Probably something from that list ^



Let's be real, a modern Spinal Tap would be about one guitarist who's so cartoonishly particular about his gear and so into nit-picking tone that he never actually gets around to writing anything.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 20, 2017)

Supernaut said:


> It would be interesting if they made a Spinal Tap for the modern era, what would the band be called? Probably something from that list ^


Peripheral.


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## Dredg (Sep 20, 2017)

Modern tone differs from circle to circle. If the pedal market tells us anything, its that there is a renaissance for classic pedals and tones. My favorite example is the sudden resurgence of the HM-2 and the massive influx of boutique clones that has followed.


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## noise in my mind (Sep 20, 2017)

yes, yes you are.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 21, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Peripheral.



Peripherals**


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## Descent (Sep 21, 2017)

Yeah...I am a geezer and can't say I like much of the modern metal.
For the most part you can give me Slayer circa Dynamo (1984/85) modded JCM800 full stacks and I am 100% happy


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## VBCheeseGrater (Sep 21, 2017)

I'm 40, and i seem to ride somewhere in the middle with my preferred tone that I inevitably end up dialing in on just about any amp, have been accused of both "classic" and "that Jeniit stuff" by extreme members of either stereotype.

I think alot of it for has to do with shaping my tone almost exclusively for live use over the years, and then my ear growing accustomed to that tone or i'm just better at dialing it in to sound good...so I now actually _prefer _more mids in my tone no matter the setting, even though 10 years ago it was scooped or GTFO. I want it to sound full and percussive, with only the minimal gain needed to get it there.

I think at some point, you just know what you like and that's enough (provided your taste doesn't stink lol)


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## Durtal (Sep 21, 2017)

There are still plenty of underground bands with a more "messy", aggressive tone though:

Altarage:


Grave Miasma:


Drowned:


Qrixkuor:


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