# The direct to desk, rig discussion



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 9, 2014)

I have to retire my trusty PodX3Live.

I only go direct to desk for my live sound, NO amps or cabs on stage, OR in isolation boxes. An all in one pedal is my preference over a rack and controller, but not an absolute. 

What options are out there along with their pros and cons?


----------



## desmondtencents (Oct 9, 2014)

I'll throw this out there for some thought.
Behringer gets a lot of sh!t for making crap gear. Some of their stuff is actually quite good. One example is the FCB1010 midi controller. (just replace the stock PROM with one that's already set up for popular units so you don't have to spend days programming it) You can get them new for $150.
The reason I mention this is because (to me at least) it seems like a good idea NOT to have an all inclusive and considerably more expensive unit on the floor where it's subject to damage. Especially if you're gigging with it. Rowdy crowds, spilled drinks......you get the idea.
I know you said you'd prefer not to go with the rack unit and controller. I used to think the same thing, why buy two seperate units when you can find an all-in-one solution? Well, I'd much rather spend $150 to replace a dead controller than have to spend $500 or more for a combination type floor unit.


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 10, 2014)

I didn't eliminate the possibility of using a rack and controller; many companies only have that option. 

Indeed Behringer has a lot of misses with their gear, but when they hit there are some real gems. I see their DI boxes everywhere.


----------



## chamelious (Oct 15, 2014)

Unless you're playing stadiums/very large venues, eliminating stage sound is a mistake IMO.

The first few rows/half the venue sometimes will be getting vastly inferior sound. 

If you're not running your own in ear system, you're putting yourself at the mercy of each venues gear/engineer.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2014)

Why are you retiring the POD? Greener pastures?


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Oct 15, 2014)

HD500X, or an amp using an isocab.
ADA has a cool little cab sim pedal too.
You can use your own assortment of Boss/Digitech/MXR/Etc. Pedals, then go direct.
A/DA (tm) - Miked Guitar Cabinet Simulator


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 15, 2014)

chamelious said:


> Unless you're playing stadiums/very large venues, eliminating stage sound is a mistake IMO.
> 
> The first few rows/half the venue sometimes will be getting vastly inferior sound.



From my experience the oposite is true. Because of the decreased stage volume, there is more room for each element to work together, rather than compete for sonic territory.



chamelious said:


> If you're not running your own in ear system, you're putting yourself at the mercy of each venues gear/engineer.



Hence why I never play a venue without getting a full PA rundown over email and phone.


----------



## chamelious (Oct 16, 2014)

thrashmetal85 said:


> From my experience the oposite is true. Because of the decreased stage volume, there is more room for each element to work together, rather than compete for sonic territory.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence why I never play a venue without getting a full PA rundown over email and phone.



What are the first few rows of your audience hearing? The ones stood well past the PA is pointing?

Even larger bands like Periphery have gone from having no cabs on stage to putting them back for this very reason.


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 17, 2014)

Mostly the monitor mix, but really if they're standing that close to the stage I'm pretty sure they're not caring about the sonic quality.


----------



## chamelious (Oct 17, 2014)

Its not just the drunk people hanging off the barrier. Depending on the venue you might be talking about a quarter of the room, and they can't hear the "monitor mix" any better than you can hear the FOH mix from the stage. However your mind seems made up 

My band use KPAs for our direct to desk signal and will never use anything else, they're flawless


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 17, 2014)

I could stretch it to having a small PA, without vocals, pushing into the crowd.

Also what are KPAs? Means key performance areas at work


----------



## Alex6534 (Oct 17, 2014)

Kemper Profiling Amps . My band uses them too, GAS for amps has ended


----------



## chamelious (Oct 17, 2014)

thrashmetal85 said:


> I could stretch it to having a small PA, without vocals, pushing into the crowd.
> 
> Also what are KPAs? Means key performance areas at work



If you were going to do this, why would you do this instead of just leaving cabs on stage?


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 17, 2014)

Alex6534 said:


> Kemper Profiling Amps



Of course! *forehead slap* 



chamelious said:


> If you were going to do this, why would you do this instead of just leaving cabs on stage?



A small PA takes up less room and weighs significantly less than two guitar and a bass amp and cab, whilst also being able to be panned.


----------



## chamelious (Oct 17, 2014)

thrashmetal85 said:


> Of course! *forehead slap*
> 
> 
> 
> A small PA takes up less room and weighs significantly less than two guitar and a bass amp and cab, whilst also being able to be panned.



A small PA also sounds utterly awful. You would be the first band i've ever seen to do this


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 18, 2014)

I have heard plenty of very decent small PAs.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Oct 18, 2014)

You can also put a couple of smaller front firing pa speakers on the front line facing the audience. It works in smaller venues just as well as it does in larger ones.
At some point, the band has to be the band and trust that the sound engineer is the sound engineer. Trying to micro manage so many details detracts quality from the performance outcome. I've had bad sound on countless occasions.certainly less than ideal monitoring conditions, but on most small stages, you can compensate with professionalism nonetheless. I've played countless shows where I did not hear a note I played unless it was a part like a break or something where drums/bass stopped while I still played. I learned early on not to fall into the temptation of turning my amp up, which just increases the spl on stage to an even more uncontrollable situation for FOH. You're a professional, you know your part, you show up, you play your part. That's the job. Not always ideal, but it checks the ego when you have a room full of people who paid dearly to see you perform regardless if the sound you hear on stage is to your ideal preference.


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 18, 2014)

Definitely need to be well rehearsed enough to play as if you can't hear yourself, or no one else but yourself.

The idea for the small PA isn't to micromange the front of house, but to provide sage volume behind the band; think of it as a monitor mix facing the crowd that only has bass and guitars in it.


----------



## ghost_of_karelia (Oct 18, 2014)

HD500X seems a good bet. Chose it for the same reason, didn't want to have to fork out for a rack and board, so it nails two birds with one dick. Stone. Whatever.


----------



## Quitty (Oct 19, 2014)

Maybe things work differently in the states. Maybe my venues are larger than normal, though i doubt it - but i never had any reason not to drop stage volume as low as i want to.
Besides, getting a soundguy to mic and EQ my amp has always been more of a leap of faith than sending a treated, fully ready signal to him in the first place.
The volumes we normally play in, even the front row gets the guitars loud and proud.
Worst case scenario, a 500W wedge is cheap and plenty loud for stage volume.

I have a Kemper and love it. 
If i wanted to cut costs, i'd go for a good OD pedal (Blackstar HT-Dual, Boogie V-Twin, Bogner XTC etc.) and a Logidy Epsi.
Wouldn't go POD HD as IMO the cabs are really sub-par. If you were alright with the X3 you probably will be alright with the HD as well, but i think you could do better for the money.


----------



## GunnarJames (Oct 19, 2014)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> ADA has a cool little cab sim pedal too.
> You can use your own assortment of Boss/Digitech/MXR/Etc. Pedals, then go direct.
> A/DA (tm) - Miked Guitar Cabinet Simulator



This. 

I used to run a Boogie V-Twin with the ADA cab sim and it was FANTASTIC. Personally, I prefer this route because a lot of "all in one" boards sound okay, but with this you can hand pick your specific effects versus being stuck with what is in the box. And, your board will most likely be the same size or smaller than an HD500 (depending on what pedals you use and how many, of course).

That being said, I'm using a Kemper now (although I haven't gigged since I've had it) and it's wonderful. I still have the ADA cab sim and use it to profile other amps into the Kemper rather than mic'ing them up. Way easier and way more consistency. But it does sound THAT good, and it's really not expensive.

What kind of stuff are you playing? Do you use a lot of different effects?


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 19, 2014)

Right now my new project is only just getting off the ground. 8 string Meshuggah chunk with King Diamond story craft. The Nothing album is the archetype for the tone we're looking for. I'm looking to use a lot of wide stereo effects for the solo passages.

My previous band was thrash so it was seriously gate>OD>Amp for rhythm and Wah>OD>Amp>short delay for solos, and I didn't use the wah a lot 

AxeFX would be the go to, but I like my kidneys where they are


----------



## GunnarJames (Oct 19, 2014)

Personally, I would grab either the Amptweaker TightMetal (or TightMetal Pro if you want more options) or the AMT SS-20 and two of the ADA cab sim DIs. You'll be under $600 total for whichever of those preamps and both cab sims. Grab the stereo delay of your choice and have at it!


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 19, 2014)

Remember that I have a highly variable Australia Tax to deal with 

For demonstration: a Triple Rectifier is around $5,000 and a Mesa cab is $2,500


----------



## GunnarJames (Oct 19, 2014)

Oops, didn't notice! 

That's craziness.


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 19, 2014)

Rort is more like it. We get it on digital purchases too! 

And distributors complain that we're one of the worst offenders for illegal downloading. We don't live in bloody Narnia!


----------



## ZXIIIT (Oct 19, 2014)

Guitar > iPhone with JamUp (Griffin Stompbox to control patches) > Carvin PM15a (for extra stage volume > direct XLR from Carvin to front of house.



Try it !


----------



## thrashmetal85 (Oct 22, 2014)




----------



## Maverick187 (Oct 31, 2014)

We use kempers with the behringer fcb1010 and kemper chip. Will never go back, We do however use cabs for stage volume and power. Keep the cabs unmiced and send the signal direct to FOH.

Ive found that works best for what we do. Cab gives you the volume for the first few rows, and sending it direct to FOH keeps it untouched through the PA.

Best thing as well, is that for any show, we can use cabs, no cabs, or powered speakers for stage sound. Gives us the most flexible solution no matter where we play whether we can bring our cabs or not.


----------

