# Baritone 5 string bass? Low F or so? F 0....?



## KeyserSoze (Mar 28, 2012)

Long term, would like to have my bass an octave down from my 8 string guitar (ok with tuning it up if need be until I can get a 7 stringer). Just did the math and I'm approaching subsonic frequencies... this will only be for recording direct. Too expensive to build a rig that would do this tuning justice live. Anyways. And yes this should probably done on something much longer than my bass but I'm pretty sure some of you crazy f***ers have already done this. 

I have a Ibanez 5 string BTB. 35" scale. I just put on a set of D'addario's, .130 on the bottom and got a playable A standard out of it. ADGCF But that's as low as I have tuned a bass before.

I did some poking around the DR catalog and realized I could get the DDT Extra Heavy 4 string set (DDT-65) and add a .145  individual string. That would be 65 85 102 125 145. 

My simple drummer brain says that most people use a .105 for an E, .125 for a B, .145 means F sharpish? I can't attest to DDT's ability to be more stable at lower tunings, any feedback? Attempts to do the same? I tried searching and didn't see anything but I'm sure it's been talked about. I've done some setup work on basses and have an awesome luthier that works with me so if it's even possible we can make it work. 

Thanks all! 

EDIT - The .145 isn't listed on their website yet but it's in the 2012 dealer pricelist.

Reflection - I really didn't think the 5 string bass went down to 31 Hz. Thought it was a higher number than that. Is this random other website I'm looking at correct?


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 28, 2012)

Hit up Skip over at Circle K Strings. 

Circle K Strings - Circle K Strings


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## ixlramp (Mar 28, 2012)

^^^ What he said.
My experience is you need a .145 minimum for A, and a .166 minimum for F: http://circlekstrings.com/CKSIMAGES/CircleKtensionChart.pdf ... it helps to exceed 30 pounds tension (extra-light). A .145 F will be extremely floppy and loose.
Circle K Strings - Standard Balanced 5 Strings
CKs have nickelplated outer wrap, if you want steel i have other suggestions 
Yes, the fundamental of B is indeed 31Hz.


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## ForThisGift (Mar 29, 2012)

I went through this exact same scenario and got the answer from Circle K. They told me if I like the feel of of a 100 for E now, to get a 200 for the drop set. If you use a 105 now, hit up the 210 for relative tension. This was for E0, but the information is still relative. 

Hope this helps.


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## Winspear (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm ordering from Circle K soon. It's good to note that their string weights are much higher than usual, so going by the string tension calculator String Guage and Tension Calculator - Version 0.1.4 - 26 apr 1998 that a lot of us use is not accurate. You have to compare it to the Circle K PDF. 

A 145 by D'addario is good in A (PERSONAL PREFERENCE!). But a 124 by Circle K states the same tension for example!

By this, a 158 or 166 by Circle K should be good in F.

EDIT: Seems the string tension calculator is greatly flawed in the higher gauges! (Checked on D'addarios tension chart which it is meant to be based off) Did not know this! What I said about Circle K strings is still true but to much less of an extreme. Sorry.

Funny enough it was just last night I was working out a new set for my bass and came across this difference which I didn't seem to remember being so extreme before. Seems something has gone wrong with the calculator suddenly. Can someone else who uses it please check this out?


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## Varcolac (Mar 30, 2012)

I use a .145 for G# on a fretless. Probably couldn't get away with it on a fretted bass, there'd be far too much fret noise and rattle.

If you want an off-the-shelf solution, it might be worth checking out Rotosound Drop Zones. 

ROTOSOUND DROP ZONE 66 BASS STRINGS

They do a 4-string set that goes down to .175 for F#. An acquaintance of mine uses their .175s for his low B, but he's insane and has absolutely idiotic string tension on his bass. Sounds very clear, but it feels like the neck's going to snap any second. 

It really depends what tension you want and what you're comfortable with. Any higher than .175 and I think Circle K are the only people who'll do them.


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## ixlramp (Mar 30, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> It's good to note that their string weights are much higher than usual


Yeah the CKs have higher unit weights than the daddario nickelplated rounds by up to 5%, apparently it's down to winding formula. At the same time they end up feeling looser than other brands due to their extreme flexibility ... far out strings 

.175 B?


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## Winspear (Mar 30, 2012)

Crazy stuff indeed. Whilst they may FEEL loose, they wouldn't give the buzz etc that too thin strings would right? I think I could enjoy the feel of loose, just not the sound (which is hard to seperate from the feel in my head haha!)


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## ixlramp (Mar 30, 2012)

Well the impression i have got is that their flexibility does indeed create more 'string excursion' and therefore buzz, so it is recommended on the site to go for a slightly higher scientific tension than you think you need, this allows you to use a higher tension while retaining the feel and playability you prefer. Check out the huge CK thread in the string subforum at talkbass. Flexibility lowers perceived tension, it seems.


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## WarriorOfMetal (Apr 1, 2012)

Baritone &#8800; Bass


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## KeyserSoze (Apr 6, 2012)

Thank you guys so much for all of the helpful advice! Sorry for my slow reply, I forgot threads do not auto subscribe here...  I just thought no one replied...

I'm going to see what the DDT 145 set will do and eventually hit up Circle K or try the roto drop zones since the store I work at is a roto dealer. At least now I know the 145 DDT won't get me anywhere near F but I've been wanting to try them anyway.

I have a .130 making a nice playable A on my BTB atm FWIW. 

People use 200+ gauge strings?! THAT. IS. AWESOME.


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## ixlramp (Apr 7, 2012)

If the rotosound 175 looks like this one it may dissappoint, it has 4 layers of wrap wire, whereas CKs have only 3 up to .190 making them more flexible. Also notice the overly long length of tapered section in the vibrating length, this will cause strange tone, inharmonicity, it's the problem that causes many tapered Bs to sound bad. The taper point should be as close as possible to the saddle.
[EDIT
The conklin/SIT .165 and .150 i tried had overly long exposed cores (although this was a few years ago, it may be different now. The SIT power steel .165 was essentially a good string ruined by an overly long exposed core).]

CKs have a super short taper for this reason ... like this ...






Warwick dark lord .175 has 4 layers. The taper is short and fat, which is good, an expensive string set ...






[EDIT
The DDT 145 will be too loose at F and i believe they are designed to be fairly stiff to reduce flop? if so that's a bad combination.]


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## KeyserSoze (Apr 7, 2012)

ixlramp, thank you for those pictures! That taper on the rotos is terrible... SO glad I found that out before buying another set of disappointing strings (haven't put the DDT's on yet but the response seems to be unanimous). 



WarriorOfMetal said:


> Baritone &#8800; Bass


Yeah, I know. So what do you call a Bass guitar that's a P4 down (other than damn awesome)? Contra Bass Guitar? 

Just checked out CK string's site... Who in the [email protected](% puts a .254 on a 40" bass?!?!?! I'm ALL ABOUT crazy stuff but I'm not sure who would have a use for anything that subsonic...


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 7, 2012)

I use Circle K strings on my bass, and i fucking love them! i have a .150 for my low A string at the moment. I actually have it tuned to G now, though i got it to tune it to A.

Ask Skip which gauges you should get, tell him which bass you have, and he'll help you out with the perfect gauges for the job!


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## ixlramp (Apr 8, 2012)

KeyserSoze said:


> Just checked out CK string's site... Who in the [email protected](% puts a .254 on a 40" bass?!?!?!


One of the 3 guys at CKS is a luthier of high-end subcontra basses (Knuckle Guitar Works) with a 39.5" scale. CKS supplies strings for his basses. Recently at NAMM he had his Quake bass strung G# C# F# B E, with a .254 G#00 13Hz on the bottom. On normal scales the .254 is for either octave-down B or the C# of extended standard tuning C# F# B E A D G.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2012)

I have tried a .135 tuned to a low B on a 40" scale bass. Circle K. Felt just as natural, except more flexible and comfy than on a 34" scale with the same gauge and tuning.

There are two main factore here: Circle K strings' formula, which makes for flexible strings, and the effects on scale length on strings. Tension is not the only thing that hanges, but also how the string acts and feels. It acts more like a string, and less like a rod, which also makes it much more flexible. On longer scales, strings aren't "tighter", just because they have higher tension, because they are more bendy at the same time. Which sounds weird, but it's true!


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## WarriorOfMetal (Apr 11, 2012)

KeyserSoze said:


> Yeah, I know. So what do you call a Bass guitar that's a P4 down (other than damn awesome)? Contra Bass Guitar?



I believe most people call that kind of tuning "sub-octave bass". Sub-Contra would probably also be appropriate.


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## Razzy (Apr 11, 2012)

My bassist has a btb and uses a .182 for low f, also, fwiw, he runs a line 6 low down hd400 through an ampeg 810, and the low f is definitely audible, and it sounds badass with the band.


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## ixlramp (Apr 11, 2012)

I feel i was a little harsh on the Conklin strings, i edited my post above. Here you can see the exposed core strings work well with a long bridge positioned well back to bring the taper point close to the saddle:






When i tried a Conklin / SIT power steel .165 on my BTB i found the bridge was fairly short and with the saddle way back to intonate such a big string there was too much exposed core in the vibrating length, which ruined the tone of an otherwise good string. However this was a few years ago and the taper may have been redesigned since then.


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## Hollowway (Apr 13, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> One of the 3 guys at CKS is a luthier of high-end subcontra basses (Knuckle Guitar Works) with a 39.5" scale. CKS supplies strings for his basses. Recently at NAMM he had his Quake bass strung G# C# F# B E, with a .254 G#00 13Hz on the bottom.



Did you get a chance to hear it? I'm curious how it sounded. I would love to get a Dingwall ABZ 6 and go down to F#, but I never thought of going even lower. That's awesome. 

Also, I emailed Skip at one point about guitar strings and he told me CKS bass strings would work really well on a guitar. Do you (ixlramp) know if the core is the same size on these as a guitar string? I'm just curious how it would work out because I know that bass strings are specifically designed to function at higher tension that guitar strings, and if I tune a CKS bass string up to half the tension it was designed for I'm not sure it's going to work. If it was possible, I could make an instrument tuned A#00, D#0, G#0, C#1, F#, B,E,A, D, G, B, E and fan it like 37"-30" or something. Not sure what I'd do with something like that, but it would be EPIC!

EDIT: And then I could tell people, "I'll bring over my 12 string, mkay?". And they'll be expecting a John Denver evening and when I show up their heads will asplode!


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## KeyserSoze (Apr 13, 2012)

Razzy said:


> My bassist has a btb and uses a .182 for low f, also, fwiw, he runs a line 6 low down hd400 through an ampeg 810, and the low f is definitely audible, and it sounds badass with the band.



That is great info to know. Thank you so much.


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## ixlramp (Apr 13, 2012)

>Did you get a chance to hear it?

No. It would be good to hear a recording. You've heard Garry's G#00 recording?

>he told me CKS bass strings would work really well on a guitar. Do you (ixlramp) know if the core is the same size on these as a guitar string?

I don't know for sure. Obviously the cores will be thicker but the strings are super-flexible. Apparently the cores are relatively thin (for bass strings) for more flexibility. I have also seen 2 happy customers on talkbass.

This might be a good time to contact Skip about this since they seem to have cleared their backlog of correspondence.


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## Setnakt (Apr 13, 2012)

I used SIT strings. The 165 is a bit light for F. I'm considering other options myself.


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## Hollowway (Apr 13, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> This might be a good time to contact Skip about this since they seem to have cleared their backlog of correspondence.



Yeah I talked to him on email right around the time of that backlog. I'll have to ask him again about the tension and core thickness.


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## ixlramp (Apr 15, 2012)

Since i'm collecting photos of various ERB strings in this thread, here's that Prometeus Guitars 11 string with a Conklin/SIT snakeskin .195 C# next to the Rotosound drop zone plus .175 F#. Nice long bridges set well back help to get the taper closer to the saddle:


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## Splinterhead (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm wondering how people capture this super low sound on disk. Any of you guys record anything this low? and what was your experience?


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## knuckle_head (Apr 22, 2012)

KeyserSoze said:


> Who in the [email protected](% puts a .254 on a 40" bass?!?!?! I'm ALL ABOUT crazy stuff but I'm not sure who would have a use for anything that subsonic...



I do . . . .


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## Hollowway (Apr 22, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> I do . . . .



 That was like in the movies where the person they're talking about is right behind them.

So what are you tuned to on that? I saw your FB post about G# - yes THAT G#. Is that what you're tuning to - G#00? I assume that's the lowest you've tuned, right?


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## Winspear (Apr 22, 2012)

Yves tunes to B below 5 string bass and it sounds nice. I can't really imagine anything lower than that! 
Hollowway, I think I mentioned before that I was told the tension on the CK bass strings is the same as the guitar strings, which says to me they are constructed the same. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Hollowway (Apr 22, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> Yves tunes to B below 5 string bass and it sounds nice. I can't really imagine anything lower than that!
> Hollowway, I think I mentioned before that I was told the tension on the CK bass strings is the same as the guitar strings, which says to me they are constructed the same. Maybe I'm wrong.



Cool. I have these visions of myself ordering a Quake or something else ridiculously long like that to tune low. But I'm not sure if I want wide spacing to play like a bass or narrow and play it like a guitar.


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## ixlramp (Apr 22, 2012)

Splinterhead said:


> I'm wondering how people capture this super low sound on disk. Any of you guys record anything this low? and what was your experience?





EtherealEntity said:


> Yves tunes to B below 5 string bass and it sounds nice. I can't really imagine anything lower than that!


There's a sound clip of a G#00 string at the Octave 4 Plus site.
Frequency =


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## Winspear (Apr 23, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> Cool. I have these visions of myself ordering a Quake or something else ridiculously long like that to tune low. But I'm not sure if I want wide spacing to play like a bass or narrow and play it like a guitar.



Officially confirmed
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2976116-post21.html

I see your problem. I guess the simple solution is, get both  I think guitar spacing would be really cool. I'd love a long instrument to play fingerpicked like in the video below, but I too would find it hard to choose between the option of strumming and standard bass playing..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPwMoiKaNOY

I freaking love his sound...Amusing that his bass goes higher than a standard guitar haha! (F#4)


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## knuckle_head (Apr 23, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> So what are you tuned to on that? I saw your FB post about G# - yes THAT G#. Is that what you're tuning to - G#00? I assume that's the lowest you've tuned, right?


As a NAMM venture I put my .254 on a Quake and got G# wondrously - Garry and Jauqo both heard and played it. I was blessed to have a Bag End Infra 21" sub that let me actually hear the 13Hz or so being produced.



EtherealEntity said:


> Yves tunes to B below 5 string bass and it sounds nice. I can't really imagine anything lower than that!
> Hollowway, I think I mentioned before that I was told the tension on the CK bass strings is the same as the guitar strings, which says to me they are constructed the same. Maybe I'm wrong.


Some of Yves' Bs are LaBellas and some are Circle Ks - I helped LaBella develop their .254. 

A good guitar string is an excellent bass string - yes the designs are near-identical, and I was fortunate to have done it correctly the first time. That doesn't happen very often.



Hollowway said:


> Cool. I have these visions of myself ordering a Quake or something else ridiculously long like that to tune low. But I'm not sure if I want wide spacing to play like a bass or narrow and play it like a guitar.


FWIW I will have a ubiquitous single string bridge that is satisfactory for bass and/or guitar that will let you do bass spacings as tight as 10mm - I'm not certain 10mm is appropriate for bass but you can do it.



ixlramp said:


> There's a sound clip of a G#00 string at the Octave 4 Plus site.
> Frequency =


Just like amplifying subcontra sound, recording it is quite the challenge. Analyzing the clip might be a worthy exercise as I'll wager overtones are carrying what is being heard. A really high sample rate on recording AND playback is called for to pull this off well and accurately.

FWIW - by NAMM I will have both the bass and string to pull off 10Hz E - it is my 10 year anniversary as a builder and I can't think of a more appropriate way to celebrate it.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 23, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> Officially confirmed
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2976116-post21.html
> 
> I see your problem. I guess the simple solution is, get both  I think guitar spacing would be really cool. I'd love a long instrument to play fingerpicked like in the video below, but I too would find it hard to choose between the option of strumming and standard bass playing..
> ...




Dammit, i keep watching that video over and over now!


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## Winspear (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah, I couldn't get enough of his old ones but this one is just incredible. Derailing from the thread really...but I'd be interested to hear what similar things could be done on a 7 tuned B-F. I'm interested in getting one but can't decide if it goes high enough..oh Yves, only you could make me worry about how _high_ a bass can go


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 24, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> Yeah, I couldn't get enough of his old ones but this one is just incredible. Derailing from the thread really...but I'd be interested to hear what similar things could be done on a 7 tuned B-F. I'm interested in getting one but can't decide if it goes high enough..oh Yves, only you could make me worry about how _high_ a bass can go



i had a 7 string bass, remember? 

it really is nice to have that range, and clean stuff sounds heavenly with it.


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## Winspear (Apr 24, 2012)

Oh nice  I'd push for 8 with a high Bb if I wasn't concerned with also being able to play tech death on the low strings..Think the reach would be too much.

..Need to stop this extensive planning of custom instruments that I wont own for another 4 or 5 years


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