# Fanned Frets or Baritone ?



## MindDusk (Jan 15, 2012)

Yeah..for the first time I am considering fanned frets..I have not much knowledge about it, but what I did read it should improve the tension for the darker strings... this got me wondering..I first thought fanned frets design was mostly to be more ergonomically correct and better playability ? 

and how much shorter neck do you gain with fanned freds ? 

I had a 27 inch scale in mind..but how much would that represent with fanned frets design, it would for give even more tension...maybe more then needed.. 

Please give me 
advantages and disadvantages
I guess one disadvantage is it is a learning curve to learn to play on fanned frets..


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## Hollowway (Jan 15, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> Yeah..for the first time I am considering fanned frets..I have not much knowledge about it, but what I did read it should improve the tension for the darker strings... this got me wondering..I first thought fanned frets design was mostly to be more ergonomically correct and better playability ?
> 
> and how much shorter neck do you gain with fanned freds ?
> 
> ...



There are loads of advantages and disadvantages for each, and it depends mostly on what tuning you're going to use. In many cases it makes little or no sense to do a fanned instrument. In others it's mandatory. How many strings are you considering, and what tuning?


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## Zonk Knuckle (Jan 15, 2012)

I wish I could afford a custom multi-scale 8. I thought the only real disadvantage was that a floyd style trem won't work. I love trems, but I don't like kahler. Are there any other disadvantages that aren't just minor things like getting used to the angled bridge, or bends working a little differently in different positions ? (I made that last one up. not sure if there's a noticeable difference) edit: after thinking about it, I think a floyd trem would work, but would require a stupid fan that's too wide at the nut.


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## Newbie Brad (Jan 16, 2012)

Check luthier Rick Toone's web site. Google to get it. Also check his latest guitars for Tosin Abasi. Google for that too, or YouTube for it. Since Toone has a gajillian -)) innovations going on in his guitars and his website talks about all of them, if it's confusing you could email or call him.


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## SammyKillChambers (Jan 16, 2012)

This shouldn't be a decision of either or. Get BOTH.


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## drmosh (Jan 16, 2012)

The downside of adapting to fanned frets is negligible, honestly.
And the neck won't be any "shorter" than a baritone neck of the same scale since you will still have to accommodate the scale of the longest part.

The issues I have come across:
String bending where the frets are most fanned.
It's harder to see where you are on the neck (without inlays) on the high strings when you play standing up. Since the dots on the top of the neck align with the lowest string, the position of the same fret on the highest string will be shifted.
I've only found these to be an issues in the higher registers though, depending on your chosen parallel fret and are easily solved by more practise and adaptation of technique. It's a matter of preference though, especially with regards to the bending.

The benefits speak for themselves though


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## MindDusk (Jan 16, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> There are loads of advantages and disadvantages for each, and it depends mostly on what tuning you're going to use. In many cases it makes little or no sense to do a fanned instrument. In others it's mandatory. How many strings are you considering, and what tuning?



I am considering 7 string guitar...Something like this...but 7 strings...and since I am planning to use an electric bass in my music..and once octave lower I find it meaningless to go below Ab.
I can of course choose since it is is a custom if I want....fanned or non-fanned neck...


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## MindDusk (Jan 16, 2012)

Zonk Knuckle said:


> I wish I could afford a custom multi-scale 8. I thought the only real disadvantage was that a floyd style trem won't work. I love trems, but I don't like kahler. Are there any other disadvantages that aren't just minor things like getting used to the angled bridge, or bends working a little differently in different positions ? (I made that last one up. not sure if there's a noticeable difference) edit: after thinking about it, I think a floyd trem would work, but would require a stupid fan that's too wide at the nut.



Well there is nothing I hate more then trems to be honest, trems usually means = Problems and headache. I want a fixed bridge...to save myself from all frustrations and suffering, I have had enough of it, sure it is ok once the strings are on, but every time you change strings...it is usually a nightmare atleast in my case... who is a guitar player..and not a guitar technician..


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## mountainjam (Jan 16, 2012)

The learning curve for fanned frets in my experience was about 5 minutes to adjust to the new experience, and about 1 day to be completely comfortable with it. If your going for a 7 string, 27-25 seems logical to me.


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## MindDusk (Jan 16, 2012)

drmosh said:


> The downside of adapting to fanned frets is negligible, honestly.
> And the neck won't be any "shorter" than a baritone neck of the same scale since you will still have to accommodate the scale of the longest part.
> 
> The issues I have come across:
> ...



Yes looking at the neck I can actually imagine it to be very hard to play on the higher frets..BUt the question is if it is a real problem or just a matter of training.. I am not much of a solo/shredder guy anyway..though I might add.. for me tone and sound/sustain is more important.. I play musical emotions not shredding wankery. But I am sure shreddes have no problem to play on a fanned guitar...there is probably many good examples of that..so I guess it is not impossible to learn...


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## MindDusk (Jan 16, 2012)

One thing I wonder how do you calculate tension for a fanned guitar ?
Is there any calculator for that ??? Cause I am actually not sure how the balance is on a fanned guitar.. on my 8 string guitar I did compensate balance by using strings wher I did messaure the tension for each string... sure it is not optimal I must admit...the ligher strings..did get too thin and usually the thicker strings to thick..I guess a fanned string guitar helps in this asspect to..to create better balance... and sustain on ALL strings..


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## drmosh (Jan 16, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> Yes looking at the neck I can actually imagine it to be very hard to play on the higher frets..BUt the question is if it is a real problem or just a matter of training.. I am not much of a solo/shredder guy anyway..though I might add.. for me tone and sound/sustain is more important.. I play musical emotions not shredding wankery. But I am sure shreddes have no problem to play on a fanned guitar...there is probably many good examples of that..so I guess it is not impossible to learn...



Like I said, it's a matter of practice. 
And it makes no difference to tone and sustain if a neck is fanned or not, my Vik is a tone monster.

And as an aside, I would think a lot of people will take offense to your statement about musical emotion vs. shredding. Not everything is mutually exclusive, and a shredder might say an "emotional" player shitting on shredders is just jealous


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## MindDusk (Jan 16, 2012)

I think I Could get used to fanned frets...

But...I am still not sure, if the tension on the lowest string will be the same as on a standard neck...I understand that the higher strings will have lower tension then on a normal neck. And if I am going to be able to buy strings I need to calculate the string tension on each string... 

but most important of all I am not sure what neck scale I want if I decide to go with a fanned neck... 

can some one please bring clarity ? 

And I can imagine Bare accord must be very hard on a fanned neck ??? 
in that..that would be a big drawback..

But honestly the biggest advantage to me must be that it looks cool.
Of course a more balanced sound and tension is very important also...
even though I must probably hear the difference myself to be able to judge..
right now I can only imagine.


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## wlfers (Jan 16, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> But honestly the biggest advantage to me must be that it looks cool.


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## Thaeon (Jan 16, 2012)

Calculating the string lengths is easy.

Subtract the shorter scale from the longer scale and the divide by the number of gaps between the strings and you'll have amount of change per string. For instance...

27-25" scale has a two inch difference. 2" divided by 7 gaps is .286". Going from highest to lowest your scales would be...

25
25.286
25.572
25.858
26.144
26.43
26.716
27

Now each string has a scale.


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## drmosh (Jan 17, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> I think I Could get used to fanned frets...
> 
> But...I am still not sure, if the tension on the lowest string will be the same as on a standard neck...I understand that the higher strings will have lower tension then on a normal neck. And if I am going to be able to buy strings I need to calculate the string tension on each string...
> 
> ...



Ok, deep breath. Think about this now 
The tension will obviously depend on the scale length you choose and what you are going for. If you want a 7 string with a low B or A, then a 27" is probably the way to go with a 25" on the higher strings to keep the timbre of a standard scale guitar.
Clearly if you choose a short scale, say 23" on the high strings the tension will be lower than on a standard strat scale 25.5" neck. But if it's 25" you won't notice the difference.

Why do you want to calculate string tension? Is it really that important that it's mathematically "correct". You talked about feel up there, get the strings which feel right, get the strings you would normally buy on a standard guitar and add a low string. Try it out!





MindDusk said:


> And I can imagine Bare accord must be very hard on a fanned neck ???
> in that..that would be a big drawback..
> 
> But honestly the biggest advantage to me must be that it looks cool.



Not really, since you can choose your parallel fret and the frets where you normally play bar chords are pretty close to parallel anyway if you choose the 7th fret to be parallel. I actually find it more natural and there is a reason Novax patented the idea of a more comfortable/natural feeling guitar rather than focussing on the tension.

And if the biggest advantage must be that "it looks cool" then why all the questions about feel and tension?


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## guy in latvia (Jan 17, 2012)

just order one of these and see for yourself, its probably the cheapest option in the EU.

Ran Guitars Crusher FF8


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## drmosh (Jan 17, 2012)

guy in latvia said:


> just order one of these and see for yourself, its probably the cheapest option in the EU.
> 
> Ran Guitars Crusher FF8



wow, I didn't realise they were so well priced.


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## guy in latvia (Jan 17, 2012)

^definitely, if they had a 7 string option i would have ordered one myself. but oh well, #13 on the ViK list 

btw drmosh, your ViK is a huge inspiration to the one im ordering


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## drmosh (Jan 17, 2012)

guy in latvia said:


> ^definitely, if they had a 7 string option i would have ordered one myself. but oh well, #13 on the ViK list
> 
> btw drmosh, your ViK is a huge inspiration to the one im ordering



Awesome! Cannot wait to see it! My next Vik should be even more insane, it certainly is extravagant on the wood


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## guy in latvia (Jan 17, 2012)

^ redwood burl top duality with snakewood board?


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## drmosh (Jan 17, 2012)

guy in latvia said:


> ^ redwood burl top duality with snakewood board?



Don't forget the Brazilian rosewood neck and one piece swamp ash body! 

OK, back on topic: Yes, anyone can play fanned fret guitars with very little adaptation in most cases.


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## MindDusk (Jan 17, 2012)

Thaeon said:


> Calculating the string lengths is easy.
> 
> Subtract the shorter scale from the longer scale and the divide by the number of gaps between the strings and you'll have amount of change per string. For instance...
> 
> ...



Very good explanation, I think I understand now. I need to think more what I want...not sure yet what to choose.


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## xeL (Jan 17, 2012)

guy in latvia said:


> ^definitely, if they had a 7 string option i would have ordered one myself. but oh well, #13 on the ViK list
> 
> btw drmosh, your ViK is a huge inspiration to the one im ordering



#19


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## MindDusk (Jan 17, 2012)

drmosh said:


> Ok, deep breath. Think about this now
> The tension will obviously depend on the scale length you choose and what you are going for. If you want a 7 string with a low B or A, then a 27" is probably the way to go with a 25" on the higher strings to keep the timbre of a standard scale guitar.
> Clearly if you choose a short scale, say 23" on the high strings the tension will be lower than on a standard strat scale 25.5" neck. But if it's 25" you won't notice the difference.
> 
> ...



Yeah you are right, but tension = sustain. Which is a important. 

Today I calculated that a 060 string on an 27" scale would get G,,,# .060" NW == 13.55# in tension... that was bad news. my I aim was about 18.5 in tension. 

with a 30 inch scale it would be G,,,# .060" NW == 16.72#
this I assume could be "acceptable tension but not optimal...
but that would forme to use very very thin strings on the ligher strings..cause the tension would go up too much on those for sure.. around 22 E .010" PL == 22.44#

And to use strings above 060 is not really an option either cause as you go over that it will get really muddy especially with power chords.. 

with fanned fret design system is there any way to solve this... to get even balance on all strings...

I am not sure if I dare to try 30 inch scale yet..it is new territory for me in that case... 27 inch feel safe..for me cause I have tried it on my RG2228.


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## MindDusk (Jan 17, 2012)

Is there some kind of limit on what angle you can use on the fanned frets, the bigger angle the more tension you can get on the lower strings relative to the lighter strings..


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## MindDusk (Jan 17, 2012)

drmosh said:


> And if the biggest advantage must be that "it looks cool" then why all the questions about feel and tension?



I said that with the glint of an eye really 
The function is the most important aspect of course...
but it has good side effect that it looks cool.


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## drmosh (Jan 18, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> Is there some kind of limit on what angle you can use on the fanned frets, the bigger angle the more tension you can get on the lower strings relative to the lighter strings..



Well, yes. The problems are obviously exacerbated the bigger the fan gets.
I would say for your first fanned guitars, for a 7 string, don't go above 2 inches of fan.


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## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> Is there some kind of limit on what angle you can use on the fanned frets, the bigger angle the more tension you can get on the lower strings relative to the lighter strings..



You can use Fretfind to make a life size printout of whatever fan and scale lengths you want. Then play around with that and see how it feels. What people tolerate is highly variable. Though I also agree that for a 7 string a 2" fan is both reasonable and easily adapted to.


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## MindDusk (Jan 18, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> You can use Fretfind to make a life size printout of whatever fan and scale lengths you want. Then play around with that and see how it feels. What people tolerate is highly variable. Though I also agree that for a 7 string a 2" fan is both reasonable and easily adapted to.



http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/

I found this program... it seem to be useful...


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## MindDusk (Jan 24, 2012)

I am still struggling to decide if I should buy fanned or non fanned frets for my guitar. And If I ever get used to it, or if normally people get used to it within perhaps a few weeks or even sooner.. what is the "normal" experience from going to fanned frets from normal. I am still unable to get a grip of how huge or small the leap is... is it a bigger leap then going from for instance an 6 string guitar to an 8 string 27 inch guitar, I think that was a quite big leap, and I did adapt to the 8 string with out any problems.... might be different with fanned frets ? what is the usual experience... 

I also might add I play a lot of chords..not so much solos...


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## Deadnightshade (Jan 24, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> but that would forme to use very very thin strings on the ligher strings..cause the tension would go up too much on those for sure.. around 22 E .010" PL == 22.44#



With a .007 you have 11 lbs of tension.Why not use thinner strings?



MindDusk said:


> I am not sure if I dare to try 30 inch scale yet..it is new territory for me in that case... 27 inch feel safe..for me cause I have tried it on my RG2228.



You can always go for 28.6" or something like that...Owning a 25"-28" fanned fret and then a 28.53" straight scale (both 8 strings) and I can say the transition is not that difficult..I've encountered nuances only in some stretched chords on many strings,but nothing too dramatic.


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## MindDusk (Jan 25, 2012)

Deadnightshade said:


> With a .007 you have 11 lbs of tension.Why not use thinner strings?
> 
> 
> 
> You can always go for 28.6" or something like that...Owning a 25"-28" fanned fret and then a 28.53" straight scale (both 8 strings) and I can say the transition is not that difficult..I've encountered nuances only in some stretched chords on many strings,but nothing too dramatic.



That is a problem with baritone neck, that the tension gets to big on the lighter strings, which force you to use very thin strings, I did try to use I think 085 on my 8 string guitar last year, and while the tension was good, the tone it self was very thin, I would not go below I would prefer to use 010...this is also one benefit that talks for fanned frets... this solves that problem.


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## Deadnightshade (Jan 25, 2012)

MindDusk said:


> That is a problem with baritone neck, that the tension gets to big on the lighter strings, which force you to use very thin strings, I did try to use I think 085 on my 8 string guitar last year, and while the tension was good, the tone it self was very thin, I would not go below I would prefer to use 010...this is also one benefit that talks for fanned frets... this solves that problem.



It depends on how you plan it...

Let's say you choose an 30" straight scale.

Using the string gauge for the fist string that gives you the same tension with whatever you use on your other guitar that has a smaller scale ,will end up sounding good.

Sure you can get even fuller tone with even bigger gauge,but don't let that limit you...In my experience you won't even feel you're lacking something unless you change the string to something thicker.Personally I prefer lower tension and the tone doesn't bother me at all.


That being said,I do propose getting a fanned fret,but you're sweating too much about,cause you fail to understand that even fanned frets have their limitations..

You can't have everything...

You'll either go with a BIGGER fan in order to achieve the GAUGES at the TENSION you want,or you'll go with a SMALLER fan (with slightly bigger scale at the top string) and you'll start with THINNER top strings so that you have a progressive or even raise in tension.Choose your destiny.


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## MindDusk (Jan 25, 2012)

Deadnightshade said:


> It depends on how you plan it...
> 
> Let's say you choose an 30" straight scale.
> 
> ...



Yeah I Understand the choices I have to make... 

Bigger fan essentially means easier to play, that is one very strong benefit of 30 inch scale.This is one reason I might consider slightly bigger then 27 inch scale. But I remember about 3 years ago when I had my 27 inch 8 string RG2228 that I did read that Ibanez did a very good choice of choosing 27 inch scale, I remember some how it was the perfect balance between playability and sound tone. 

if I remember right if you go to big scales 30 inch, you have other problems..there is always benifits and drawbacks.. I wish remember exactely WHAT the "problems was when using a 30 inch scale.. but I remember that somehing that did not sound good on 30 inch..I think it was something when you play above the 12th fret or something.. some one can share their experiences ? Anyway I am quite sure that 30 inch is too extreme maybe... but I would maybe consider 28.XX... still need to find out the best balance and compromise.


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## Winspear (Jan 25, 2012)

^ High strings become shriller the longer the scale. That's the point of fanned frets, to get long scale clear lows and nice highs on the short scale. Think Meshuggah lead sound.


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## Fred the Shred (Jan 26, 2012)

My tip regarding fanned frets the first time you play them: don't look at the fingerboard when playing the first few things - while your muscle memory will have no issues fretting the notes correctly except in more extreme fans, our visual perception is looking at uncharted waters and I found that to be the #1 issue for most people, as once the psychological barrier is gone, adaptation is a breeze. 

As for one or the other, I use both at all times, and it boils down to how mellow and balanced or crisp and in your face I want the treble strings to be.


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## Deadnightshade (Jan 26, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ High strings become shriller the longer the scale. That's the point of fanned frets, to get long scale clear lows and nice highs on the short scale. Think Meshuggah lead sound.



IMHO ,for straight scales above 28" , using thinner top strings helps alleviate the shrillness ,cause thin strings have less body..I need to experiment with that though to conclude to something.




MindDusk said:


> Yeah I Understand the choices I have to make...
> 
> Bigger fan essentially means easier to play, that is one very strong benefit of 30 inch scale.This is one reason I might consider slightly bigger then 27 inch scale.



For me bigger fan means the difference between the two outer string scales is bigger,which isn't helping in chording above the 12th fret (and maybe confuse you at high frets)..At least judging fro the 3" fan i have experience with


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## MindDusk (Jan 26, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ High strings become shriller the longer the scale. That's the point of fanned frets, to get long scale clear lows and nice highs on the short scale. Think Meshuggah lead sound.



I am sorry, even if I did translate the word shriller to my language, I still do not understand what you mean by that ? Could you please explain ?


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## MindDusk (Jan 26, 2012)

Fred the Shred said:


> My tip regarding fanned frets the first time you play them: don't look at the fingerboard when playing the first few things - while your muscle memory will have no issues fretting the notes correctly except in more extreme fans, our visual perception is looking at uncharted waters and I found that to be the #1 issue for most people, as once the psychological barrier is gone, adaptation is a breeze.
> 
> As for one or the other, I use both at all times, and it boils down to how mellow and balanced or crisp and in your face I want the treble strings to be.



Thiws was actually very good tip, I will really keep that in mind when/if I try to learn. I think I have decided that I will buy one guitar with fanned frets, cause really, it seem to be the only real solution. 

Yeah the upper frames above 12 fret does usually look very hard to play.. I bet it can't be easy to shred on that..luckily I am no shredder though.


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