# does the multiscale kahler tremolo work, otherwise should I choose multiscale vs tremolo



## JediMasterThrash (Oct 13, 2018)

I've been wanting to get another extended range guitar, 7 or 8 string.

It seems that to make and 8 or 9 really work well you need multiscale. And the ergonomics of the multiscale might be nice regardless.

I've found 8-strings and multiscale guitars now at guitar shops so I've been able to try them out, and on first play I found the multiscale to be very nice, I never lost my fret position as I originally feared, and it does help chording on the lower strings. I definitely prefer having the "straight" fret closer to the 12th than the 7th.

My biggest concern now is the floating trem. For both rhythm and lead I use a lot of floating trem, whether it's dives or flutters or squeals or just vibrato when my fingers aren't in a good position to do it themselves.

Anytime I play a guitar with a fixed bridge I feel like my right arm's been cutoff.

Multiscale obviously poses mechanical design challenges to a tremolo. Kahler has a multiscale tremolo which the Agile gutiars use. I've read some mixed reviews on whether it actually works at all. If it's going to suck then I'd rather not use it.

So my first question is, does the kahler multiscale tremolo work well?

And if not, my second question, do you think the multiscale is so much better/important to 8-string guitars, that if I wanted an 8-string, I'm better off getting multiscale with fixed bridge, or am I better off getting regularscale with floating bridge?

Thanks.


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## trem licking (Oct 13, 2018)

multiscale is only better if you prefer the feel of how the frets are angled. any "benefits" of it can be offset by changing string gauges slightly. i dont have any personal experience with kahlers but from what i've seen on video and read, they dont stay in tune as well as a floyd rose does... or at least it takes more work to get it to. also, the locking nut on the agiles with kahlers (or 8 string floyds) make the strings go VERY close to the edge of the fretboard, so there could be issues there as well. I'm the same way with electric guitars... i require a trem, preferably a floyd rose or equivalent. unless you go custom, the only good option available right now for a production 8 string with a trem is the schecter hellraiser c8 fr. i have one and its awesome, i highly recommend it.


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## ThePhilosopher (Oct 13, 2018)

I have one of each (FR8 and multiscale hardtail) for different purposes; sorry that doesn't help.


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## JediMasterThrash (Oct 13, 2018)

string gauges is something i've been struggling with on my current 7-string. I have to use 10's, 9's break all the time and seem to cause a lot of weird buzzing. And I need enough tension on the lower strings so they don't fret-buzz out.

The nut on mine also put the high E too close to the edge, but I had a luthier reposition it better. It was impossible to vibrato otherwise without rolling the string off the frets.

I'd like to get a custom Kiesel going but they don't do any multiscale with tremolo so it seems like one or the other unless I want to go with an Agile.


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## trem licking (Oct 13, 2018)

you can calculate string tensions easily with d'addario and a couple other manufacturers. i usually run light tension on the high E and progressively up the tension on each succeeding string till i get to the end. you can experiment till you get the action/buzz/feel sorted out to your taste. as far as string breakage, that shouldn't be a factor unless theres something going on with your nut and/or bridge (rough spots, perhaps?) or you're doing MASSIVE bends/pullups on the trem bar. i run a .007 tuned to E on my 28" guitar and i can do huge pullups and bends without it breaking, and its been on the guitar for many months now.

from what i understand, the hipshot trems on the kiesels don't have quite the range of a floyd rose as far as pullups go, and perhaps a little less for dives too. they are another option for an 8 string with a trem, but it depends on what kind of stuff you like to play... the hipshot might leave you disappointed if you're used to a floyd


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## cardinal (Oct 13, 2018)

I have not played the multiscale Kahler. 

But I’ve found that a straight 26.5 or 27” scale works just fine for me for a low F#, and for that a straight scale is fine and gives the option of the Floyd 8 if you can find a guitar with one. 

Schecter makes the C8FR if you can be comfortable with a straight 28” scale.


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## JediMasterThrash (Oct 13, 2018)

Huh, I didn't realize Kiesel didn't use FR trems. I had a stock "licensed" FR which sucked. The knife edge to pin contact was bad so it had several "neutral" positions that were a few cents apart, and if you did any dives and returned to neutral you'd end up like 10 or 20 cents out of tune. It was unable to flutter. And went out of tune like mad. Just low grade metal and tolerances I think.

Replaced it with a true FR and it was much better. I also got the large/heavy brass bar on the back which definitely helped increase sustain. i had to route out a portion of my back plate to make it fit but it was worth it I think.

I also have an ibanese Edge II tremolo which has good and bad. IT's much sturdier than my FR, but the trem bar is a lot looser.

I'd say my biggest complaint about all my trems, "licensed" true or edge, was the vibrato bar. None of the vibrata bars have a solid contact to the floating trem itself. There's a little play and looseness which sucks sustain and makes it hard to "flutter" without being careful.

Is there any trem system with a very solid vibrato bar to trem connection?


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## StevenC (Oct 13, 2018)

trem licking said:


> multiscale is only better if you prefer the feel of how the frets are angled. any "benefits" of it can be offset by changing string gauges slightly.


You should look up the word intonation and then look up the word inharmonicity.


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## crankyrayhanky (Oct 13, 2018)

JediMasterThrash said:


> Huh, I didn't realize Kiesel didn't use FR trems. I had a stock "licensed" FR which sucked. The knife edge to pin contact was bad so it had several "neutral" positions that were a few cents apart, and if you did any dives and returned to neutral you'd end up like 10 or 20 cents out of tune. It was unable to flutter. And went out of tune like mad. Just low grade metal and tolerances I think.
> 
> Replaced it with a true FR and it was much better. I also got the large/heavy brass bar on the back which definitely helped increase sustain. i had to route out a portion of my back plate to make it fit but it was worth it I think.
> 
> ...



Not sure if this will help you, but at one point I had a slew of Wolfgangs and HPs. I was told the bar had some jiggle before reacting because that's how EVH likes it.

get* Plumber's Tape*- a few wraps and it is tight tight tight


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## jco5055 (Oct 14, 2018)

JediMasterThrash said:


> Huh, I didn't realize Kiesel didn't use FR trems. I had a stock "licensed" FR which sucked. The knife edge to pin contact was bad so it had several "neutral" positions that were a few cents apart, and if you did any dives and returned to neutral you'd end up like 10 or 20 cents out of tune. It was unable to flutter. And went out of tune like mad. Just low grade metal and tolerances I think.
> 
> Replaced it with a true FR and it was much better. I also got the large/heavy brass bar on the back which definitely helped increase sustain. i had to route out a portion of my back plate to make it fit but it was worth it I think.
> 
> ...



I have a Lo Pro Edge and it seems about as perfect as you imagine...I'm also getting an 070 with a Floyd from Aristides and I imagine that will almost be perfect also.


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## trem licking (Oct 14, 2018)

StevenC said:


> You should look up the word intonation and then look up the word inharmonicity.


I know what both are. You can intonate any scale guitar just fine and i doubt many can hear the inharmonicity people always bring up unless they use ridiculously large strings. Get a 27" scale 8 or higher and it will sound just dandy.


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## StevenC (Oct 14, 2018)

trem licking said:


> I know what both are. You can intonate any scale guitar just fine and i doubt many can hear the inharmonicity people always bring up unless they use ridiculously large strings. Get a 27" scale 8 or higher and it will sound just dandy.


So why aren't all Gibsons and Fenders 27" if there are no advantages to their shorter scale?


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## jephjacques (Oct 14, 2018)

I've heard bad things about the 8-string kahlers, I'd avoid. IMO while multiscale is *nice* on an 8 it's not a HUGE advantage. I'd just go with a straight scale 8 if you really want a trem. People seem to like the ones Kiesel makes.


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## trem licking (Oct 14, 2018)

StevenC said:


> So why aren't all Gibsons and Fenders 27" if there are no advantages to their shorter scale?


Huh?


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## StevenC (Oct 14, 2018)

trem licking said:


> Huh?


You said any benefits of fanned frets can be offset by changing string guages. Why aren't Les Pauls just 27" with different strings?


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## trem licking (Oct 14, 2018)

StevenC said:


> You said any benefits of fanned frets can be offset by changing string guages. Why aren't Les Pauls just 27" with different strings?


Well... They could be. Maybe they made them that scale for comfort? All im sayin is, fanned frets only really benefits you if you're comfortable with them... There's not really a tonal advantage. Its very very minor. String tightness can be offset with different gauges.


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## StevenC (Oct 14, 2018)

trem licking said:


> Well... They could be. Maybe they made them that scale for comfort? All im sayin is, fanned frets only really benefits you if you're comfortable with them... There's not really a tonal advantage. Its very very minor. String tightness can be offset with different gauges.


Except that if tone is in any way quantifiable it has to do with wave forms, and you're fundamentally changing the shape of the wave when you change the scale length.


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## trem licking (Oct 14, 2018)

I dont think they were thinking in waveforms when they chose their scale length. In the context of this thread, it doesnt matter


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## Winspear (Oct 14, 2018)

I see it like this ; the tonal effect on the low strings is way more important. The thick gauges get close to inharmonicity and need to be extended to sound good. 
The high end does sound slightly smoother if not extended too, but it's only a very small change (that of one or two fret positions). So it's ok to go with a straight baritone to get good low end, and reduce the treble gauges slightly to combat tightness. It'll be slightly brighter on the high end on the open strings, but no big deal for most. 
Fanned feels nice and does give a little better tonal balance by smoothing the treble strings, but it's not enough to warrant overcomplicating hardware choices, compromising other specs by limiting choices etc. 
I'll go with fanned every time if possible (my 9 has a 4.5" fan for christ sake ), but baritone straight scale is usually fine. 

Disregarding peoples general sour opinion of Kahlers, I've spoken to one professional musician who is a fan of the regular model and told me to stay well away from the fanned one, if that's any help. There are various technical reasons why it's not a great idea. Straight scale opens up your trem choices and allows the trem to behave better. Not to say there aren't decent options for at least moderate fans. Look into Technology4Musicians if necessary


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## A-Branger (Oct 19, 2018)

heres a Kahler multiscale bridge







not sure how good it works compared to a regular straight scale Kahler or Floyd...... but, its humongous hahah.

Visually its a nope for me, but if its what you want, it can be done. But agree with the above and go with a straight scale so you can have more options. Or go witha multiscale and change your playing to not use a tremolo


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