# Carbon Firbe Neck Reinforcing, Solid Bar vs Tube?



## Suitable (Jan 25, 2017)

Hi all,

Hope this finds you all well.

I'm wanting to know what others are using for neck bracing to ensure a dead flat (or as close too as possible) neck by either using carbon fibre tube (say 1/4" OD with a 1mm thick wall) vs general carbon fibre flat bar stock (such as LMII's 1/8" X 3/8" X 24" cf/graphite bars, or getting a pre vacuumed 1/8" thick cf sheets cut to size to suit the necks length and profile etc)?

I can see both good and bad points of using round tube stock (but I'm not sure if it'll make any difference to sustain or tone at all), it's "lighter" as there is a hollow section in the tubes so this will allow a lighter neck/lighter guitar in general, but do those air pockets reduce sustain or tone etc if left hollowed? 

Flat sheet &/or bar stock: Depending on how it was made, including epoxies and the weave, this would make the neck have its full "mass" and won't reduce sustain at all as well as give excellent strengthening abilities all round, maybe not as much lateral strength as tube, but more than enough for any guitar neck afaik? I'm pretty sure it won't effect tone enough to be noticeable in general? 

so what do you use and why? Both have good points to them. Tube could be better, but it could also be worse, so expertise would be greatly appreciated on this topic! 

Thanks heaps for any help and info in advance!

Steve 

Ps. I've decided to do my own inlays... After re reading that thread and many other threads on it... What the f()$& was I thinking about asking those questions!?!


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 25, 2017)

I remember someone on here recommending carbon d-tubes from dragonplate. He said his guitar neck never moves. Definitely requires more routing than a regular truss rod though and I wouldn't do it on a super thin neck due to the rout being 1/2 to 3/4 inches deep depending on the model.


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## MoonJelly (Jan 25, 2017)

I have used the rectangular bars commonly found with StewMac or Bitterroot, they are an easy install with a 1/4" bit.

I've never used tubes, but I have 3 guitars I built using 7mm pultruded carbon rods (solid through the middle). They work just as well as the flat pieces, I just used a 1/4" cove bit to route the channels instead. Fill the little gaps up top with epoxy and call it a day.

I've noticed that both methods lend a lot more stiffness to the neck. There is much less movement especially when you push on the back of the neck to dive a note. I've thought about buying a D-channel from DragonPlate but they're costly (85 bucks plus shipping) and 2 rods (15 bucks on ebay) seem to do a great job on their own.


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## Suitable (Jan 26, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I remember someone on here recommending carbon d-tubes from dragonplate. He said his guitar neck never moves. Definitely requires more routing than a regular truss rod though and I wouldn't do it on a super thin neck due to the rout being 1/2 to 3/4 inches deep depending on the model.



Thanks for the info KnightBrolaire regarding the D-tubes, I had a look on the dragonplate site but couldn't find a shipping price to Australia unless going through the whole setup, but MoonJelly mentioned a rough price of $85 for a pair (I'm guessing?), but I am sure they would be cheaper in bulk (which I am looking for) and could probably find something similar locally too with the same profiles/specs cheaper. I'll search for that thread to see if I can ask him/her how they are holding up and if there is any problems with having the voids in them (like tube) regarding tone etc. I'm wondering if I can get away with 1/4" x 1-2mm wall tubes as they should have a stronger resistance to bending in any direction. I agree regarding the depths too! I've got some 1/8" X 3/8" X 24" LMII cf rods for my current build which I'm thinking I might shave back a little bit from the nut end so they are on a slight angle that follows the neck line from nut to heel... But I should be able to get 20mm at the first fret with them as is if I route their chances right up against the truss rod route, leaving 1mm each side of the truss rod... Might be able to get it to around 17mm if I'm lucky with 1/4" tube or rod as suggested! Thanks heaps for the help and info! 

But this will be for future builds so I can get it all in bulk to "save" some cash 

MoonJelly: Sounds good in regards to the solid 7mm CF pultruded rods, like you say, filling the top void with epoxy so the whole channels are solid would keep them nice and straight/not wanting to move! Give it a scrape flat the next day then glue the board on. Simple and cheap! Especially in bulk, ie ~$2 AUD per meter for 1/4" tube or bar vs $20+ USD for the LMII/Stew-Mac flat bars etc... Thanks heaps for the help and info! 

On the note of the D-channel, I'm guessing it's hollow (as I couldn't find them in my search on the dragonplate website) yeah? Anyone that has used it, or similar, does this play any effect on tone or sustain by having the small hollow section down the centre of each channel or tube? I could see the void as being great for larger ERGs to help with neck dive which could be a plus, depending on body shape. But I'm guessing it could have a negative effect on sustain due to having less "mass"? 

Thanks heaps for all the help and info! 

Ps. Happy Australia Day! Cheers!


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## Given To Fly (Jan 26, 2017)

Gemini D-Tube
http://geminimusical.com/carbon-fiber-d-tube-neck-beam.asp


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2017)

Given To Fly said:


> Gemini D-Tube
> http://geminimusical.com/carbon-fiber-d-tube-neck-beam.asp



that's literally just the dragonplate d-tube being sold on gemini's website.


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## Given To Fly (Jan 26, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> that's literally just the dragonplate d-tube being sold on gemini's website.



You are right. I mistook D-Cradle for D-Channel of which I can not seem to find anywhere either.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2017)

so for a 16" long d-tube @ dragon plate they run from 65 USD to 49 if you buy 100 d-tubes. the 20" long d-tubes are from 85 USD to 64 if you buy 100 d-tubes.
http://dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=130

The pultruded rods are wayyy cheaper working out to around 2+ USD for a rod


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## Given To Fly (Jan 26, 2017)

That is cheaper. I don't know what else to say.


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Jan 26, 2017)

Yeah, it's carbon rods for the win. I've built several necks with StewMac rods and LMI rods, never had an issue with the stability (least not due to the carbon fiber components). Sounds good, no noticeable weight issues... I also personally believe the addition of carbon fiber is not absolutely necessary in a 7 string and that it can be properly done by correctly laminating a neck blank and a simple dual action truss rod alone, though I usually add CF for piece of mind.

There's certainly no harm in trying tubes though, I've thought of doing this in one of my future planned builds.


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## Suitable (Jan 26, 2017)

Sweet! Thanks Given To Fly for the link and info! Didn't realise it replaced the truss rod completely either. Not sure about that especially with the lengths they offer, or lack of... Have you played an axe with them installed? 

Price is pretty out there for what they are... Being 3250% more... But that doesn't include a truss rod though which adds to the cost of the latter... $20 for the truss rod and cf rods so it's still a ~350% price difference.... (Don't quote my brain on that... It was Australia Day yesterday... Let's just say the beers were good...) 

In saying all that though, the site/s does/do say it increases sustain by having the void, but physics says otherwise, seems pretty "snake oilish" to me but I can't say for sure as I have never played an axe with one installed? But we do (I do) swap floyd/lo pro edge tone blocks from cast to billet brass to increase sustain which it does a little from the mass increase from bubbly cast to solid billet... Hmmmm 

Anyone played one to confirm?

Thanks heaps for all the help and info!!!


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## Suitable (Jan 26, 2017)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> Yeah, it's carbon rods for the win. I've built several necks with StewMac rods and LMI rods, never had an issue with the stability (least not due to the carbon fiber components). Sounds good, no noticeable weight issues... I also personally believe the addition of carbon fiber is not absolutely necessary in a 7 string and that it can be properly done by correctly laminating a neck blank and a simple dual action truss rod alone, though I usually add CF for piece of mind.
> 
> There's certainly no harm in trying tubes though, I've thought of doing this in one of my future planned builds.



Beat me to the post! Yeah I know what you mean regarding the necessity of the cf componentry being not needed, but it's just piece of mind and helps ensure that neck is dead flat (especially if you like no relief for a lower action). Can still be done on a well built neck though without fibre, ie the Ibanez RG7620's etc before the premium and prestige ranges with their titanium neck reinforcements... 

Loving the info though! It always great to learn more about the physics of new build tequniques IMHO. 

Thanks for the help and info all!


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## Given To Fly (Jan 26, 2017)

Suitable said:


> Sweet! Thanks Given To Fly for the link and info! Didn't realise it replaced the truss rod completely either. Not sure about that especially with the lengths they offer, or lack of... Have you played an axe with them installed?
> 
> Price is pretty out there for what they are... Being 3250% more... But that doesn't include a truss rod though which adds to the cost of the latter... $20 for the truss rod and cf rods so it's still a ~350% price difference.... (Don't quote my brain on that... It was Australia Day yesterday... Let's just say the beers were good...)
> 
> ...



I have not played a guitar with a D-Tube reinforcing the neck. I own two classical guitars which liberally use carbon fiber to reinforce the bracing. One of my guitars has two carbon fiber strips reinforcing the neck making it as rigid as possible. The idea is to send as much of the string energy into the soundboard as possible with the added advantage of a rock solid neck that I never need to worry about shifting/moving/warping/etc.  I found out about the D Tube from Todd Keehn's website: http://www.tkinstruments.com/guitar_bass_custom_shop.htm . Ironically, Todd built a guitar years ago for an electric guitarist named Daryl Buckley who is the current artistic director of the ELISION Ensemble, a contemporary music ensemble based in Melbourne. I knew about Todd and tksinstruments for 7 years before I realized Todd's shop is a 2-3 hour drive from my house here in Arizona.  And just to continue with the irony, my first concert classical guitar was built 10 years ago by Zbigniew Gnatek, a luthier based near Sydney. The guitar is a lattice braced 7 string with a 24 fret extension. Considering he had never built a 7 string, especially with a 24 fret extension, and I had never played a 7 string classical guitar, we were both taking a risk. Sometimes when you take a risk, things turn out poorly. Other times, things turn out really well! So well, that after 10 years I am still "growing into my Gnatek!" (The flight case was made in Perth by Presto cases by the way.) 

I do not think Todd would offer the D-Tube as an option if it did not work as advertised. Too many people would lose too much. Since I am a guitarist and not a luthier, I have no first-hand knowledge that the D-Tube works, but if the day comes when I get to make the decision to put a D-Tube in an electric guitar, I will probably take that risk. I do not like adjusting the trussrods on my guitars. I can do it, but I can also mess it up. The guitar tech I go to could only mess it up on purpose, which he has never done. From my perspective, if possible, build a neck that never needs adjusting. It eliminates an inconvenience and brings peace of mind. 

So, that is my take on the subject of carbon fiber reinforced necks. I can not explain the weird connection between Australia and Arizona, but I can say it has been a good connection.


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## Suitable (Jan 27, 2017)

Very good points buddy! I do agree in regards to not have the hassle of "tweaking" the truss rod, ever. that does sound appealing, I can't disagree about that at all! 

I guess I am so used to doing it, it would feel very weird for me to not to do it. I do wonder though if it can/could handle heavier strings/string tensions and multiple different conditions (say going from a Norway winter to an Australian summer (pun intended ) for example. The change in temperature as well as humidity levels make the timber move ever so slightly, thus needing a slight tweak of the truss rod to suit the conditions etc)? I'm definitely going to do more research into their design and ask the luthiers that use them what they feel about them etc. I know with a classical acoustic guitars, the string tensions are far less with "nylon" strings vs steel string acoustics, electrics & basses so I'm eager to find out more about them! Ill start at Todd Keehn's website I think! 

My only question now is the matter of the sustain of a standard filled, truss rod etc neck, compared to the open void in the D-Tube if it'll sustain more or less than the traditional trussed neck? I hit him up and see what he thinks and knows regarding them as its only the void that has me scratching my head 

Thanks heaps for all the help and info all!

PS. It is a very small world in retrospect regarding coincidences! Hence why "they" are calling for a New World Order...


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## pondman (Jan 27, 2017)

What are you building ? A well built laminated neck requires no extra reinforcement.


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## Lemonbaby (Jan 27, 2017)

pondman said:


> What are you building ? A well built laminated neck requires no extra reinforcement.



+1

Even my superlight Red Cedar necks with two hard maple stripes are very stable with .46-.10 strings. To be honest, I could have even left out the trussrod - it's only needed to achieve a perfect setup if the neck ever moves due to humidity changes or similar. The use of carbon rods or titanium has only one very minor advantage (which is also neglectable with a 5-piece neck): the bend under string tension is more evenly distributed over the full length of the neck. As wood is not a 100% uniform material, single piece necks can have flatter and more bent regions although you'll probably never see that with perfectly sawn/dried wood and a proper build process.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 27, 2017)

i think I'll try the d-tube in my next guitar build, just out of curiosity as to how stable it is. It might be complete overkill to do that plus a laminated neck but the more low maintenance I can make a guitar the better imo.


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## Given To Fly (Jan 28, 2017)

Suitable said:


> Very good points buddy! I do agree in regards to not have the hassle of "tweaking" the truss rod, ever. that does sound appealing, I can't disagree about that at all!
> 
> I guess I am so used to doing it, it would feel very weird for me to not to do it. I do wonder though if it can/could handle heavier strings/string tensions and multiple different conditions (say going from a Norway winter to an Australian summer (pun intended ) for example. The change in temperature as well as humidity levels make the timber move ever so slightly, thus needing a slight tweak of the truss rod to suit the conditions etc)? I'm definitely going to do more research into their design and ask the luthiers that use them what they feel about them etc. I know with a classical acoustic guitars, the string tensions are far less with "nylon" strings vs steel string acoustics, electrics & basses so I'm eager to find out more about them! Ill start at Todd Keehn's website I think!
> 
> ...



I'm happy to help, or at least offer my opinion.  Truthfully, I am interested in these things too. I hope you find your answers!


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## Suitable (Jan 31, 2017)

pondman said:


> What are you building ? A well built laminated neck requires no extra reinforcement.



Just guitars and basses. Nothing too extreme, but I would rather have the reinforcement in the neck than not just for "why not" reasons I guess. I would rather the neck to always be nice and straight, and especially as i prefer a straight fret board with no neck relief than a slightly bowed neck that has relief and aways will to a certain degree by design. 

I am also interested to see (well... hear...) if there is any noticeable 'tonal" difference between a solid timber neck, one with cf flat bars and one with around 6mm, 7mm, 8mm CF hollow tube along side of the truss rod? Physics says less mass equals less sustain (solid vs hollow bar) which would alter tone slightly. Physics also says that a cf tube (say 6mm with a 1mm wall, i.e. 4mm ID) has a greater strength against bending in all or any directions than a solid piece of CF rod which would make the tube better to use for strength reasons. How much would this effect tone at all by having that 4mm ID open space in the neck is the question. I am just looking at the options of carbon fibre neck reinforcing we have to choose from to see if there is any benefits to either one OR none at all.

Its been a while since I've seen your builds buddy! How have you been??? How many guitars have you built now?! You have made some killer axes over the years!  I cant remember if you use reinforcing or not though? I F()*&ing LOVE that fluro green RG!!! Would love to know what paint you used for that and the paints colour code!!! My now 5 year old son is right into monster trucks, his favourite is Grave Digger, of which the colour of it looks exactly the same as your fluro green guitar! I am thinking i might do some airbrushing in that colour on his cheap black half scale acoustic as a "gift" of sorts ha ha! Either way, I need to catch up on your build threads!!! Are you selling them yet?

All are great responses that make sense, and thank you all for that! I'm just looking at design and pondering the options. Trying to think outside the box a bit with neck design. Got some designs in my head that I am slowly turning into paper then templates. But some of these designs might need extra reinforcement in areas due to the shape of the design, so I'm looking at the options available to see what would be better to use than others. 

I'm interested to see if there is a difference between a "hollow' neck (cf tubes) vs a "solid" neck (CF solid or just timber)? Thinking maybe someone here might have built 2 guitars basically to the same specs as each other except for using solid bar for one and hollow tube for the other? 

Sorry if these are stupid questions Im guessing any difference would be less that what the human ear could hear, as a guess...

Thanks heaps for the help and info!!

Cheers


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## geoffstgermaine (Jan 31, 2017)

I've used the Dragonplate D-tube in an acoustic guitar neck. As others have already mentioned it goes in without a trussrod. Obviously the lack of adjustability could be an issue and I would suggest is an issue for an electric instrument, but on the acoustic I built it is set up to be played with a certain set of strings both for the neck and for the soundboard bracing, so to me it was not really an issue that there's no adjustability. I can't say that I'd do it again, though. There are weight savings, but there are installation complications and most people want to have an adjustable neck for the "in case" scenario. My reasoning behind using the D-tube was that Classical Guitars generally do not have a truss rod, so it was in keeping with the same thought as that only on an instrument with higher string tension.

I don't think a lot is gained with CF reinforcement in general, unless there's some pretty specific engineering goal in mind. An all CF neck - sure. I agree with Pondman that wood necks are stiff enough, IMO, and can be easily adjusted with the truss rod for any resultant bow that is deemed "excessive". 

Even the dual action truss rod is overkill in almost every instance I've seen. Sure, it can increase the bow in the neck, but I've personally never adjusted on to accomplish that task. I suppose if you make the neck so stiff (with CF?) that it wouldn't bow enough to suit the player's preferences then the dual action could overcome it.


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## Deegatron (Jan 31, 2017)

pondman said:


> What are you building ? A well built laminated neck requires no extra reinforcement.



I would say this is true in most cases. the exception being an ultra thin Ibanez style neck (which apparently tend to develop a fretboard hump or two as they age).
That's why Ibanez adopted those Titanium rods despite their 5 pc laminated construction.


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