# Is the hype for custom shop guitars fading?



## Velokki (Oct 19, 2019)

I'm trying to get perspective here, to see whether it's just me who has changed, or have others noticed the same?

2015-2016 I was super keen on getting my first custom shop-grade instrument. I got a Skervesen 4AP which was stellar by all accounts. The hunt for better and better guitars continued, and I bought/traded something like 15-20 guitars or so.

During just this relatively short period of time, prices of Mayones, Skervesen etc. have gone up a considerable amount (I'm talking about _NEW_ prices). Also, during the same period, _used_ prices have fallen flat. I mean, for a used Mayones you had to pay at least 1600-2500€ here in Finland in 2012-2015. Now there are literally mint Mayones guitars for sale for 1100-1500€.

I sold 2 of my Skervesens (brilliant guitars), and especially with the Raptor, I got like 20 trade offers for Mayos, Gene Baker, Music Man, Skervesen, Aristides, Caparison, Dean USA etc.
Only *ONE* cash offer... which was a low ball.

As the prices for new custom shop guitars have gone up, the second hand market has just really fallen into a complete buyer's market, with noticeable oversupply.

Do you agree with these sentiments?

For me personally, I've found out that for my needs or wants, buying second hand upper range production guitars is the best thing ever. I just bought a mint 2013 ESP Horizon for 1000€. Also got an RG1527 for dirt cheap.

Then I've been watching some listings, that in my mind are really nice - for example Wolfos's Skervesens. I've been completely dismayed that they just hang around there for months and months (I think maybe over half a year by now?) without being sold.

I think that the only _reasonable_ uses for a custom shop these days are:
A) You 100% know what you want, and it is something that the production lines don't produce
B) You really, really want to have a crazy finish (though refinishing a production guitar you like would only cost like 300-600€).
C) You just have a lot of dough and wanna throw them at special pieces of luthiery

This has been a subject I've really wanted to discuss for a while and I'd really like to hear your thoughts!


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 19, 2019)

It's always been a buyer's market when it comes to used custom guitars. Always.

The only exception is when a given guitar or builder gets a ton of hype or extreme scarcity. Though, this usually settles down as tastes change, artists come in and out of favor, and the hype train moves onto the next "big deal".

There definitely is a saturation factor, as guitars last decades, or even centuries, and if a builder is still putting out work regularly there isn't going to be scarcity.

It also doesn't hurt that you can get a production guitar now that would of HAD to of been custom less than a decade ago.


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## c7spheres (Oct 19, 2019)

I agree. The customs I've sold off were at huge losses. They were remarkable pieces of work, but the reality is if the guitar doesn't vibe with me there's no point in keeping it cause I'm not gonna play it much at all. I had about 12 guitars at one time and only kept going back to my favorite 2 guitars. At this point I just have 1 custom and 2 Rg's. It's really humbling when a stock RG vibes and inspires more than a guitar that costs 8-10 times as much. Definately a buyers market, especially with Keisel's for some reason I've noticed.


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## Velokki (Oct 19, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> It's really humbling when a stock RG vibes and inspires more than a guitar that costs 8-10 times as much.



Haha, exactly!
I got this RG1527 as a trade + cash, and I was like "well, another RG, let's just move it on". But I've really fallen in love with it! It just screams "play me, goddammit" and I find it hard to put it down. Then some really, really expensive guitars I've had have just been left in the rack, getting no play time.

I've also noticed that the sickest tops and finishes only look THAT great when you look at them in pictures / videos. Like, I don't stare at the guitars body when I play it, and I always get used to a guitar's look in a week or so. After the initial honeymoon of a killer finish, it's like just another guitar. When I look at videos of me playing a riff (I record ideas with my selfie camera a lot, so I don't forget), then I think like "oh, that guitar sure does look nice", but it could literally just be a plain black guitar, and I wouldn't notice much difference in day-to-day playing, haha.



c7spheres said:


> They were remarkable pieces of work, but the reality is if the guitar doesn't vibe with me there's no point in keeping it cause I'm not gonna play it much at all.



This is so true. Even if a guitar or two have been superior in terms of build quality and finish, it's so hard to put your finger on why you just jive effortlessly with a super barebones instrument, like an ESP MH-1000 or an Ibanez RG. All the while a 4000€ custom shop instrument with a top like a renaissance painting is sitting on the rack unplayed, haha!


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## narad (Oct 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It also doesn't hurt that you can get a production guitar now that would of HAD to of been custom less than a decade ago.



If production guitars were as good in 2008 as they are now, I'd probably have never ordered a custom guitar to begin with.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2019)

The problem with pricing used customs is that unless the price is super low they aren’t going to fit the buyer. 

If it’s only a few hundred less then most people are going to get a new guitar. 

although I have noticed the supply of skervesens and kiesels and stuff have pretty much dried up in reverb.

something else I’ve noticed. You pretty much need to have something fancy if you want it to sell at all. Most other people like fancy things. 

also, people have many many more guitars then cash these days. 

Other random thoughts. 

Every non multiscale 25.5 7 custom for sale. Lol you specced something you can buy at the store and now you want almost full price for it. 

narad had a 60s for sale. I checked the price. Checked my bank account. Found out about the Aristides headless the next day. OopS

there’s a user here whose been trying to move 2 really beautiful skervesens. But his asking price is almost 1k more then I paid for either of mine. Hard to pull the trigger.


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## narad (Oct 19, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> narad had a 60s for sale. I checked the price. Checked my bank account. Found out about the Aristides headless the next day. OopS



Goddammit...when I find out who let out about that headless....

But yea, saturation plays a part. I think with that Aristides sale I thankfull had something that was still kind of a new model and "all out" spec wise, and was listing it maybe 25% off new for basically new (sold for 35% off?). I think Aristides is one of these brands that I think are going to tank soon, not because they're not great guitars, but because the market gets saturated and there's pretty limited range spec-wise since not even the woods are changing. I mean, 28 used Aristides on Reverb now. Even something like Skervesen that is fairly diverse in one dimension (shapes, stains), ultimately wind up producing many guitars that are pretty similar in the ways that matter, and people would rather just buy used. And 23 used on Reverb now.

I feel like at this point in time, we have very few new brands that are really killing it, so in general the used market is pretty diverse and people are likely to find something they want. I remember there was a time when a bunch of brands were all sort of hot at supply was scarce -- like blackmachine, daemoness, strandberg, mayones, skervesen, were all kind of rising up around 2013. Where it was a race to get on waiting lists and finished guitars would sell for more than new.

Actually, that was probably also the height of prog bands pitching those brands before dumping them off, of people flipping whole brands. Now they all have sig guitars so that strategy is kind of dead in the water. Not sure how much that really makes a difference, but just an observation.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2019)

narad said:


> Goddammit...when I find out who let out about that headless....
> 
> But yea, saturation plays a part. I think with that Aristides sale I thankfull had something that was still kind of a new model and "all out" spec wise, and was listing it maybe 25% off new for basically new (sold for 35% off?). I think Aristides is one of these brands that I think are going to tank soon, not because they're not great guitars, but because the market gets saturated and there's pretty limited range spec-wise since not even the woods are changing. I mean, 28 used Aristides on Reverb now. Even something like Skervesen that is fairly diverse in one dimension (shapes, stains), ultimately wind up producing many guitars that are pretty similar in the ways that matter, and people would rather just buy used. And 23 used on Reverb now.
> 
> ...



forums are out of fashion so that skews the look somewhat. 

Almost no one posts ngds here anymore versus fb groups. And maybe discord? Who knows what kids are doing. 

i got my first custom like 8 years ago and I’ve got way more guitars then hobby money at this point. 

but being in Facebook certain brands still seem to be selling plenty of guitars. 

What’d I have if I just started buying today and didn’t go custom? 

Strandberg, ormsby, the schecter multi, maybe the Ltd multi. 20 used prestige’s.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 19, 2019)

Right now is a very good time if you wanted to buy a good guitar. Just go on reverb and there are like 12 Viks, 40 + skervesen, countless Kiesels, 30+ Aristides etc etc not to mention the countless Ernie Balls, prestige’s etc for sale too 

The market is oversaturated. Like Narad said for Kiesel and Aristides they are limited specs. Why pay near new price when you could get your own spec from the maker. I’ve never seen so many guitars from those brands not selling so I think they’ve reached the point where people are going to have to take big hits or not sell at all. The days of trying loads of guitars and selling them on without a loss are gone. Now you’d have to be prepared to lose a sizeable chunk.

That said builders like Daemoness and Carillion have their waiting lists closed and I rarely see them for sale nowadays. Nowadays you can’t see it as investment that you can sell on for without a loss so you need to be sure in what you’re buying.


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## NeglectedField (Oct 19, 2019)

I couldn't justify one. Would be too scared of dinging it. More into the idea of getting decent workhorses in the £500-1500 range and investing in making sure they're the best axes they can be.


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## fps (Oct 19, 2019)

NeglectedField said:


> I couldn't justify one. Would be too scared of dinging it. More into the idea of getting decent workhorses in the £500-1500 range and investing in making sure they're the best axes they can be.



And for £1500, honestly, that budget can buy you a guitar you'll never let go of and love forever. Heck, £500 can too, but you know what I mean, get the right one at that price and you'd never outgrow it as a player.


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## bzhang9 (Oct 19, 2019)

Customs actually generally do better than super high end production models like PRS customs, J customs etc which sell around 50% of new near mint

From my experience Kiesels, strandbergs, suhr sell real fast at 60-70%

USA parkers have gone up a lot, used to buy them barely above 1k now they are fetching 2k in good condition.


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## budda (Oct 19, 2019)

I dont think custom shop guitars were ever flying out of stores or shops...


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## dhgrind (Oct 19, 2019)

Now that I’m in my 30’s I don’t even think I’m ready for my daemoness custom yet


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Oct 19, 2019)

I truly hope so.
I commend and respect custom artisans who make luthiery an art
But I’ve seen some outlandish, out of control, over the top creations (especially from Europe lol) that shouldn’t even be conceived of

With that said, I just discussed extensively the cream of the crop custom shops and small operations, and we came to the conclusion that its always best to go production (like buy it from a store with a warranty).

At the same time, that doesn’t stop me wanting an Essi 7 or 8 (or Padalka Pluto or Saturn)!!!

Then again, Ibanez is supposed to be making a custom shop which is what I always dreamed of: a custom ibanez 7 string, and ESP always had perhaps the longest standing high end quality custom shop ever.

So yes, I think it will fade as ibanez and ESp start to compete, and i hope the competition reaps better prices and more options !


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## _MonSTeR_ (Oct 19, 2019)

It’s intersting that a fair few of the brands, like Aristides, Kiesel and what have you I would never have called ‘custom shop’, I’d have used the term low volume manufacturers.

I think that online guitar communities exist in bubbles so that the hype here for brand x maybe doesn’t reflect the hype on TGP, who are too busy hyping brand y. As such what folks thought was a sure investment grade custom shop piece is actually a bubble-grade one off in an unmarketable finish.

Folks buying master luthier custom shop Teles at least seem to know what they’re getting into.

I’ve had a few customs over the years and agree that realistically a good RG will keep up with most things. I still maintain that Petrucci did his best stuff on his Ibanez JPM, which is basically an RG. If it’s good enough for John Petrucci, it’s good enough for you. (Ignore the part where he’s with EBMM these days, it gets in the way of my argument)


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## chopeth (Oct 20, 2019)

Yes, it is fading, take a look to the death of Ran or the prices and sales droppings in other Polish brands.... not only for custom, I think but for guitars in general. I agree with that said that regular market guitars offer is huge today and there are very good guitars with a lot of different options without going custom.


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## Velokki (Oct 20, 2019)

chopeth said:


> Yes, it is fading, take a look to the death of Ran or the prices and sales droppings in other Polish brands.... not only for custom, I think but for guitars in general. I agree with that said that regular market guitars offer is huge today and there are very good guitars with a lot of different options without going custom.



Yeah! Thinking back to 2014 for example, there really weren't many production multiscales and so many guitars only came equipped with the stock EMG/Duncans that had been the standard for the last 15 years.
See this for example:
https://www.espguitars.com/products/20485-e-ii-m-ii-nt-hipshot?category_id=1963528-m-series-guitars

Beautiful top, hipshot bridge, Bare Knuckles. That kind of offering just wasn't available even a couple of years ago!


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 20, 2019)

I originally went the custom route cause I wanted a high quality 7 string that didn't have EMGs, a thick neck, basswood body and a floyd. There are countless options for that nowadays.


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## Marty666 (Oct 20, 2019)

It's not just customs, it's pretty much every high end guitar for a couple of years now. There's hardly any cash circulating, just guys trying to trade stuff. Same thing with a epic spec PRS I managed to sell recently. Huge amounts of trade offers, none to very little cash action and these cash offers more often then not were borderline offensive. Higher end shops tend to give reasonable trade in offers, but they have to have something there you actually want. So in the end I sold it to a friend for less then the trade who DID want something from said store so I could move on and he made a bit of money on the deal. Got myself a second hand CS Strat for a steal . If ever I fall out of love with it it might just turn me a bit of profit.
.
Having said that, I hope to take delivery of an all out fancy custom Skerv pretty soon, that luckily has so much sentimental meaning I couldn't care less if I was the only person in the world that wanted to own it and couldn't give it away if I ever wanted to .


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## laxu (Oct 20, 2019)

A lot of bigger brands have started copying the visuals of boutique brands that had quirky finishes with burl tops and whatnot. Likewise things like stainless steel frets, name brand pickups and multiscale options are becoming more common. Meanwhile overall guitar quality regardless of price range is getting better so there isn't as big a gap between guitars of different price ranges.

I got a Kiesel Aries AM7 because in 2015 it was one of the few "semi-custom" (e.g. no 1+ year waiting time) multiscale 7 options available. I bought a Skervesen Shoggie 8 after a disappointing experience with Strandberg because an 8-string headless multiscale guitar with a fancy finish and woods is a pretty specific thing. I bought a used boutique LP style guitar because finding a Gibson Historic at a better price is just not happening over here.

But other than that I have no desire to get anything custom because for most things I can just get a good production guitar and maybe mod it a little bit.

I went to check out a guitar store in Osaka, Japan during a trip this spring and went to the "high end guitars" floor and saw the most amazing stuff ranging from top end Gibsons, Fenders, PRS (one of the rare multiscales too!) and various boutique models. I was left wondering who buys all those things, will they ever sell at so high prices?


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

laxu said:


> I went to check out a guitar store in Osaka, Japan during a trip this spring and went to the "high end guitars" floor and saw the most amazing stuff ranging from top end Gibsons, Fenders, PRS (one of the rare multiscales too!) and various boutique models. I was left wondering who buys all those things, will they ever sell at so high prices?



You mean this store.






















As to who buys them, I raise my hand. I did not buy anything at that store because I was flying to Tokyo the next day on an economy flight. Had I taken the Shinkansen, I might have left Japan with the Oni instead of the Bizen. I ended up buying a different Bizen than the first guitar on the left in the third picture in Tokyo.

The market for high end goods is always tricky and not easy to gauge as a whole. We get the same questions in the fountain pen world. Some brands can drop in demand while a different group of brands can go up. Prices can go through cycles where they peak for a few years then go flat and dead for a few years and come back. Different brands can go in different directions

This thread is focused on a set of guitar brands that target the same narrow demographic. Supply and demand is in play here. The number of manufacturers of these types of guitars has increased. Mainstream manufacturers started to makes similar models. Supply is up and demand has not grown or even shrank. I bought my first Mayones in early 2012. At that point, the hype was just building and there were few Mayones guitars in the US. That kinda of limits the used market because there isn't even a new market yet. Now, it is easy to find such a guitar at varying price points. 

Things that are in demand will sell. Some of the guitars I wanted to see in Japan sold within days of being delivered to the store. Ironically, these guitars were more traditional. 

There is the general specter that overall guitar usage is down. This is one of the popular TGP topics. It is clear that in some parts of the world like the US, demand is down. The interesting question is whether demand is growing in parts of Asia (not Japan). China and Indonesia are growing markets for rock and metal. If you look at Ola England's Vlog on Music China, Chinese NAMM, the scene looks vibrant. More importantly, the attendees with the exception of a few middle aged people were almost entirely young. Compare this with NAMM where the attendees are far older. We tend to talk about China and Indonesia as places where guitars come from. The interesting question is their own domestic consumption of guitars.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 20, 2019)

Is that a motherfucking fanned fret PRS Singlecut?


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Is that a motherfucking fanned fret PRS Singlecut?



only like 12k. Go for it. 

does that place have a digimart? I want an oni.


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## manu80 (Oct 20, 2019)

Like every hype, it comes and goes. Skerv, mayo etc...at the end they finally look a lot the same (Can't believe how Vola are ripping mayo, who has ripped others etc....) EMG, BKP, Fishman....it's a cycle...
like headless guitar. But we're all part of it, we wanna try stuff until something new appears...
and then Glam guitars will come back etc etc...


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## stinkoman (Oct 20, 2019)

I think as previously mentioned demand overall is down for guitars, and the quality IMO across the board in all price ranges, especially lower and mid tier, and options available have gone up dramatically the last decade IMO, for me it's been harder to justify spending a lot on a guitar these days. I've found a lot of $500 - $1000 guitars the that for me rivaled things more than twice the price

There is also so many builders to come the last 5-10 years, easier access to these customs and high end guitars like reverb , eBay ect people have so many more choices and can be more picky on finding what they want or holding out for best deals.


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> only like 12k. Go for it.
> 
> does that place have a digimart? I want an oni.




Of course there are Digimart listings.

7 string RH Essi
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS04933281/


7 string LH Essi
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS04653845/


Oni Lump
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS04653841/

Oni Reclining Nude
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS04653839/



Just for good measure. Here are the PRS multi-scale sevens


Royal Blue Glow (Single Cut)
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS05576217/


Red Fire
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS04895489/

Charcoal
https://www.digimart.net/cat01/shop1220/DS05453631/


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

manu80 said:


> Like every hype, it comes and goes. Skerv, mayo etc...at the end they finally look a lot the same (Can't believe how Vola are ripping mayo, who has ripped others etc....) EMG, BKP, Fishman....it's a cycle...
> like headless guitar. But we're all part of it, we wanna try stuff until something new appears...
> and then Glam guitars will come back etc etc...




This is certainly the case. The interesting thing are the custom shops that make Strat clones or Gibson clones. There are plenty of these guitars on the market at all price levels but the number of small boutique makers and custom shops putting these out is staggering. BTW- some of the guitars that sold out within days or arriving at stores in Japan were all strat clones.


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## prlgmnr (Oct 20, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> The market for high end goods is always tricky and not easy to gauge as a whole. We get the same questions in the fountain pen world. Some brands can drop in demand while a different group of brands can go up. Prices can go through cycles where they peak for a few years then go flat and dead for a few years and come back. Different brands can go in different directions


What are the fanned frets of the fountain pen world?


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

prlgmnr said:


> What are the fanned frets of the fountain pen world?




If you ignore vintage pens, the two driving factors are the nibs and pen materials/finish. I would say custom grinds on nibs are the equivalent to fan frets. Different grinds have always been around but in the US and parts of Europe, people are taking this to ridiculous levels. At my pen show, people lined up at 6am to get on the list for a nib 'meister' to work on their pens. Pen materials are more like wood or finish choices on a guitar. Ink colors are akin to pickups. The one thing that does not have a direct equivalent is urushi amd maki-e. These are Japanese lacquer techniques and are more akin to art. They are now very popular in the West but Maki-e is one thing that will easily take a pen and break five figures. Vintage maki-e pens are also the ones that easily break six figures at auctions.


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## narad (Oct 20, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> The one thing that does not have a direct equivalent is urushi amd maki-e.



Well, I always wanted a maki-e guitar finish. There was an ESP custom done in that style once, and I think it was the basis for a limited run of a few other guitars that may or may not have been done by the same artist.


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

narad said:


> Well, I always wanted a maki-e guitar finish. There was an ESP custom done in that style once, and I think it was the basis for a limited run of a few other guitars that may or may not have been done by the same artist.




Blue Guitars and their in-house brand Stilblu just made a guitar and finished it entirely in urushi. The pickguard was done with Raden work. The price was ask. 

https://twitter.com/blue_guitars/status/1175628123490013185?s=20

Maki-e at that size scale is ridiculously expensive. For a master, 1 sq. ft. of maki-e work is $35K-50K. I showed that guitar to a couple of urushi masters while I was in Japan. I happen to know a few. I don't think either were willing to take on the project.


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## narad (Oct 20, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> Blue Guitars and their in-house brand Stilblu just made a guitar and finished it entirely in urushi. The pickguard was done with Raden work. The price was ask.
> 
> https://twitter.com/blue_guitars/status/1175628123490013185?s=20
> 
> Maki-e at that size scale is ridiculously expensive. For a master, 1 sq. ft. of maki-e work is $35K-50K. I showed that guitar to a couple of urushi masters while I was in Japan. I happen to know a few. I don't think either were willing to take on the project.



Yea, I mean, I feel like asking a master to do something of this sort is to essentially elevate (well, that implies hierarchy -- "transform") the guitar into an art piece, and of course then it will be ridiculously expensive. It seems reminiscent of inlay, especially on acoustic guitar bodies, at top guitar shows. They becomes guitars that no one plays. 

But I'm curious if one were to simply treat it as a means to an end and not fluff it up with artistic mystique and prices if it would be possible to keep the prices from exiting the stratosphere. I imagine these days there are fast-curing lacquers that would at least speed up the process, and you even find handmade maki-e-esque lacquer layer painting on kitschy little things on etsy and in souvenir shops, as a bit of an example to the contrary.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> If you ignore vintage pens, the two driving factors are the nibs and pen materials/finish. I would say custom grinds on nibs are the equivalent to fan frets. Different grinds have always been around but in the US and parts of Europe, people are taking this to ridiculous levels. At my pen show, people lined up at 6am to get on the list for a nib 'meister' to work on their pens. Pen materials are more like wood or finish choices on a guitar. Ink colors are akin to pickups. The one thing that does not have a direct equivalent is urushi amd maki-e. These are Japanese lacquer techniques and are more akin to art. They are now very popular in the West but Maki-e is one thing that will easily take a pen and break five figures. Vintage maki-e pens are also the ones that easily break six figures at auctions.



Do they use these things for normal writing or just calligraphy and signing names?

I’m a big fan of fountain pens. They make you write better.


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Do they use these things for normal writing or just calligraphy and signing names?
> 
> I’m a big fan of fountain pens. They make you write better.




Everything from normal writing to calligraphy to art. This is associated with journaling and etc.


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## AltecGreen (Oct 20, 2019)

narad said:


> Yea, I mean, I feel like asking a master to do something of this sort is to essentially elevate (well, that implies hierarchy -- "transform") the guitar into an art piece, and of course then it will be ridiculously expensive. It seems reminiscent of inlay, especially on acoustic guitar bodies, at top guitar shows. They becomes guitars that no one plays.
> 
> But I'm curious if one were to simply treat it as a means to an end and not fluff it up with artistic mystique and prices if it would be possible to keep the prices from exiting the stratosphere. I imagine these days there are fast-curing lacquers that would at least speed up the process, and you even find handmade maki-e-esque lacquer layer painting on kitschy little things on etsy and in souvenir shops, as a bit of an example to the contrary.




You can silkscreen to speed up the process. The art form is tied to the urushi itself and it's properties.


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## Avedas (Oct 20, 2019)

narad said:


> Yea, I mean, I feel like asking a master to do something of this sort is to essentially elevate (well, that implies hierarchy -- "transform") the guitar into an art piece, and of course then it will be ridiculously expensive. It seems reminiscent of inlay, especially on acoustic guitar bodies, at top guitar shows. They becomes guitars that no one plays.
> 
> But I'm curious if one were to simply treat it as a means to an end and not fluff it up with artistic mystique and prices if it would be possible to keep the prices from exiting the stratosphere. I imagine these days there are fast-curing lacquers that would at least speed up the process, and you even find handmade maki-e-esque lacquer layer painting on kitschy little things on etsy and in souvenir shops, as a bit of an example to the contrary.


Japanese artistry _not_ getting inflated into mystical bullshit? Good luck 


I've never felt much of a need for a custom guitar, but I've been thinking about a Padalka build for a couple years now since his work is definitely unique enough. I wouldn't mind having one custom guitar that was more like art.

I also have a Kiesel Delos on order actually. It's cheap and simply specced, since I couldn't find a strat that did what I wanted for a reasonable price, and the custom options provided by Kiesel covered all of it. I'll probably get it refinished into something fancier a few years down the line if I like it enough.


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## narad (Oct 20, 2019)

Avedas said:


> Japanese artistry _not_ getting inflated into mystical bullshit? Good luck



Lol. At least ceramics are fairly cheap and still pretty fancy. I can just stare at my sake cups because they're so aesthetically cool.


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## broj15 (Oct 21, 2019)

I decided to go "custom" simply because the guitar I wanted did not exist. Even then I was able to keep the price well under $2k. Most things that used to be only be available from custom shops when I first started frequenting this site are available on sub $2k production model guitars (and even imports).

Also, somewhat unrelated and possibly inflammatory, but but I'd say 90% of the time a custom guitar is engineered WELL beyond the average persons ability to play the instrument and in all honesty we could all make do with a standard off the shelf MIA strat with various pickup configurations.


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## Andromalia (Oct 21, 2019)

I went "custom" (more on the "s later) because a 3K5 guitar was actually cheaper than getting the regular way: asking the Jackson CS for some special artwork. I'd have ended up waiting 10 years and paying 15K, in the 0.0000001% off chance that they'd have said "yes".

The "custom" process mostly included selecting among options, the only real custom things were the knob placement, and the art I wanted, most notably that inlay:





They also suggested some art for the body and we had back and forth discussion about it, but the technical "played" part of the guitar was just a bunch of options. Which ended up looking like this:





I'm still playing her, only thing that needed a change over the years was a new nut because since owing an ESP Ultra Tone I retired her from B standard tuning and now play her in E with 46es, so the nut wasn't at the proper height any longer.

TLDR: most "customs" are just a pick of options and maybe a special finish. A true custom would be a body type that ou draw on a napkin and tell the builder: "build me that". I hear ESP does it, but so far people have failed to pay the three kidneys price.


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## chopeth (Oct 22, 2019)

Good lord, what an EPIC axe


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## Drew (Oct 23, 2019)

I'm in that camp too, where I never really got the fetish for "custom" guitars. 

I own two. One was a seven string Suhr made in specs that, at the time, it was impossible to find a seven string guitar in - maple board, HH and a Floyd, swamp ash body, pretty top. I wanted a seven string with humbuckers and a Floyd but Fender-like construction, and that's how I went about doing it. 

The other was another Suhr order, six string, and was essentially because I fell in love with the color of a Suhr custom ordered finish they didn't offer as a production option, and had disposable income to burn. That order was a little silly, but as it happens it also ended up being one of the best guitars I've ever played when it showed up, so I must have gotten a really good chunk of wood or something. it was kind of an unusual spec list I guess, anyway - I was looking for a HH guitar with a modern Fender neck profile and a 2-point vintage style bridge, but with a mahogany body, maple top, andf 25.5" maple fretboard neck, so I guess it's not as much of a sheer luxury as I was thinking when I started writing this.

The former though was an attempt to build something not really in the market place. That makes sense to me. Going custom for the sake of going custom - and I'm thinking of all these "help me spec out my Mayonayes!" threads - never made any sense at all to me, and if you don't know exactly what specs you're looking for, you're probably wasting your money paying a premium for a custom-built guitar when there are some awesome production guitars out there these days (my Suhrs get a ton of play time, but so too do a pair of modified but otherwise production Fenders on my wall).


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## _MonSTeR_ (Oct 23, 2019)

Drew said:


> Going custom for the sake of going custom - and I'm thinking of all these "help me spec out my Mayonayes!" threads - never made any sense at all to me, and if you don't know exactly what specs you're looking for, you're probably wasting your money paying a premium for a custom-built guitar when there are some awesome production guitars out there these days.



100% this.

At the end of the day if you have to ask on this site for help on what spec to order, you're not ready for a custom guitar.


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## Albake21 (Oct 23, 2019)

I put in my first custom order about a month ago. For me, it was a culmination of trying to figure out exactly what I liked in guitars. All of 2018 I was trying out as many guitars as I could because I truly wanted to learn what exactly I wanted in a guitar. Once I figured that out I was ready for a custom. I wanted to take everything I loved from a couple guitars, that turned into keepers, and put it into one package I could call my own. I've also had the specs that I wanted in my head for months. Do we need a custom? Of course not! I have two main guitars that I find to be amazing. On the other hand, it's been my dream to order a custom and get exactly what I want in a guitar. A guitar that is unique to me and in a way will be my "signature guitar". Basically a guitar that describes my tastes all in one. For all I know, I might hate the guitar, but I'm still glad I did it just for the sake of trying a custom build that was specifically built for me.


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## Spicypickles (Oct 23, 2019)

If you have to ask anyone how you should spec your “custom guitar”, it’s no longer custom.

hard line, I know but spend a few more years playing everything you can to narrow it down. Even then, there is probably the guitar out there for you


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## laxu (Oct 24, 2019)

Spicypickles said:


> If you have to ask anyone how you should spec your “custom guitar”, it’s no longer custom.
> 
> hard line, I know but spend a few more years playing everything you can to narrow it down. Even then, there is probably the guitar out there for you



I'd rephrase this as "know what you want from a custom guitar before ordering one". Also know why you can't get it from a production model. Even then it's fine to rely on the builder to guide you if you try to have specs that won't work well etc.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 24, 2019)

Haven't read the whole thread but IMO it's due to many changes. For one, there's been other instances of BRJ type money grab and run jobs lately from other builders that were once well respected. So that reduces the availability of custom shops to order from. Then you have massive price increases lately, even production guitar prices have jumped up noticeably to the $1300-$2000 base range. When Fender bought Jackson and they implemented the new Custom Select prices shot up and now for a 7-string alone it has to be MasterBuilt which jumps the price way up. I was originally considering ordering a second custom as I love my first one so much and there's one other shape I'm dying to have but I'm thinking it will likely cost me $6500 which no way am I doing. Then there's even longer wait times.

But overall I think it's mostly a reduction in available reputable custom builders. That, cost, and wait time all add into it.


Rev.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 24, 2019)

laxu said:


> I'd rephrase this as "know what you want from a custom guitar before ordering one". Also know why you can't get it from a production model. Even then it's fine to rely on the builder to guide you if you try to have specs that won't work well etc.



At the same time, the desire for something custom doesn't always come down to specs on paper.

There's multi-billion-dollar industries around customization of cars, homes, etc etc. As much as people use guitars as tools where specs matter, just as many (or likely more?) take aesthetics and other intangible aspects into account. Does blacking out emblems and chrome trim on your Mazda improve performance or resale? No, in fact the extra finish technically adds weight and likely hurts resale, so there's no practical reason do do it. But people do it. 

Wanting something "unique" and custom makes just as much sense as the desire for a guitar that's exactly like an artist's guitar/signature model (unless that's the only way to get a specific spec, which is annoying...).


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## Señor Voorhees (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm super vain when it comes to guitars, so a good chunk of my purchasing decision is based on how a guitar looks. As an example, I can understand people wanting to buy a Mayones without knowing exactly what specs they want just because they have a certain look about them.

On the other hand, I'm not so vain that I'll buy a guitar that I hate the specs of, so I'd never buy a Mayones for the simple fact that I don't know what their neck profile feels like personally. I'd have to try some out. I'm not super picky about specs either though, so I might ask for opinions on certain things, but only on options I know I'll like. Like maybe color... Blue vs purple vs pink... I'd love them all the same, so why not let people vote/give input on it. I know I love me some big fat necks, SS frets, quality locking tuners, hard tail bridges, figured tops, and what pickups I like. I don't buy into tone wood, so the wood it's made of means little to me outside of looks. (and laminate necks for stability/looks.) 

Most of the specs I prefer are readily available in production models. That said, I would like more purple guitars in general. I would totally go to a custom shop to get a seven string version of this guy with a fatter neck and 27" scale:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/E1FRSETPB--schecter-e-1-fr-s-special-edition-trans-purple-burst?&mrkgcl=28&mrkgadid=3344197479&product_id=E1FRSETPB&campaigntype=shopping&campaign=aaShopping%20-%20Temp%20OOS%20-%20Guitars&adgroup=Guitars%20-%20Electric%20Guitars&placement=google&creative=361266589807&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl8XtBRDAARIsAKfwtxD8Qqwd_KyBobJwxxGKR5p1QyDkxvxoDclzzB_EnG7zExMGiLC9yGIaAk0BEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I'd even keep the floyd, because the sustainer + floyd is fucking fun. (I own a 7 string with both, so I know I would gel with it.)


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## AltecGreen (Oct 30, 2019)

narad said:


> Yea, I mean, I feel like asking a master to do something of this sort is to essentially elevate (well, that implies hierarchy -- "transform") the guitar into an art piece, and of course then it will be ridiculously expensive. It seems reminiscent of inlay, especially on acoustic guitar bodies, at top guitar shows. They becomes guitars that no one plays.
> 
> But I'm curious if one were to simply treat it as a means to an end and not fluff it up with artistic mystique and prices if it would be possible to keep the prices from exiting the stratosphere. I imagine these days there are fast-curing lacquers that would at least speed up the process, and you even find handmade maki-e-esque lacquer layer painting on kitschy little things on etsy and in souvenir shops, as a bit of an example to the contrary.




The price on that guitar is not as bad as I thought. They have at listed at ¥500,000


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## AltecGreen (Oct 30, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> only like 12k. Go for it.
> 
> does that place have a digimart? I want an oni.




An update. The right handed seven string Oni at Mikigakki has been sold.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 30, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> An update. The right handed seven string Oni at Mikigakki has been sold.



oh well. It wasn't on my plans for this year anyway. I've decided to only buy headless guitars for the time being to keep my spending in check.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 30, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> An update. The right handed seven string Oni at Mikigakki has been sold.


... to you?


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## nightlight (Oct 30, 2019)

I think a lot of the market saturation is due to the fact that most guitar owners nowadays seem to flip instruments at a really fast pace. 

It used to be when you bought at $3-4k guitar, you'd play it for years and years, probably all your life. Nowadays, People buy custom shop guitars, play them for a while, then see something else shiny and pretty and start fantasising about owning one of those instead. 

It also seems a lot of the custom shop craze is hype-driven, at least for a majority of people. The world is now social media-obsessed and everyone wants to buy a guitar, bring it home and then post photos on Instagram or on forums to tell everyone how great it is and how they're going to keep it forever. Wash, rinse, repeat a little down the line.

I lol'ed so hard at the thread where the guy bought a custom shop guitar and was raving about it and then turned around two weeks later and said the guitar was so badly made it could not be intonated properly. Not at the guy's misfortune. that's crushing. But just this tendency nowadays to go out there and make recommendations and be a virtual gear guru to the world. 

All that said, I absolutely think the right custom shop guitars are worth it in the right hands. But you have to do your research and you have to get a good builder.

I mean, there were even complaints about Skervesens at one point of time iirc. And I've heard the same thing about Overload Guitars, for example.


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## AltecGreen (Oct 30, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> ... to you?




No. I thought about it but having just bought the Bizen and that one fountain pen at the Tokyo Pen Show made that an easy decision. I did wonder if my posting about that guitar on various forums based on my Japan trip lead to someone buying the guitar.


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## Merrekof (Oct 31, 2019)

I litteraly googled fountain pen and maki-e because I didn't know if it was some sort of slang..becaus they can't be talking about pens and 4k$ in the same sentence... How can pens be so damn expensive??


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## AltecGreen (Oct 31, 2019)

Merrekof said:


> I litteraly googled fountain pen and maki-e because I didn't know if it was some sort of slang..becaus they can't be talking about pens and 4k$ in the same sentence... How can pens be so damn expensive??




True maki-e is a labor intensive art form. It maybe easier to show with a video.


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## Albake21 (Oct 31, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> True maki-e is a labor intensive art form. It maybe easier to show with a video.



Don't get me wrong, it's very labor intensive and a true art form. With that said, it's still nowhere near worth the amount they are asking.


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## oracles (Oct 31, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Don't get me wrong, it's very labor intensive and a true art form. With that said, it's still nowhere near worth the amount they are asking.



An item is worth what the market is willing to pay for it. 

Personal opinion on a subject goes a long way in determining what a product is worth to you. I have zero interest in handbags for example and cannot possibly fathom why a Birkin is worth $60k, but one of my co-workers wives owns two and can wax poetic about why its worth what they charge, and simultaneously thinks me spending $4k on a custom guitar is outlandish.


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## Albake21 (Oct 31, 2019)

oracles said:


> An item is worth what the market is willing to pay for it.
> 
> Personal opinion on a subject goes a long way in determining what a product is worth to you. I have zero interest in handbags for example and cannot possibly fathom why a Birkin is worth $60k, but one of my co-workers wives owns two and can wax poetic about why its worth what they charge, and simultaneously thinks me spending $4k on a custom guitar is outlandish.


You're comparing a $4k tool/instrument (custom shop guitar) that is used to create the world's language to a $60k bag.... You're not helping the argument here. I'm not saying the pen isn't worth a lot of money, I'm just saying it's a little over priced. Maybe more like $2k/$2.5k would be more realistic.


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## JSanta (Oct 31, 2019)

oracles said:


> An item is worth what the market is willing to pay for it.
> 
> Personal opinion on a subject goes a long way in determining what a product is worth to you. I have zero interest in handbags for example and cannot possibly fathom why a Birkin is worth $60k, but one of my co-workers wives owns two and can wax poetic about why its worth what they charge, and simultaneously thinks me spending $4k on a custom guitar is outlandish.



This is it exactly IMO. Nothing is worth more than what people are willing to pay. For me, something like a A. Lange & Söhne watch, while gorgeous, is not something I would ever put $100k into. But I get why people do. Same with fountain pens, guitars, etc...


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## JSanta (Oct 31, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> You're comparing a $4k tool/instrument (custom shop guitar) that is used to create the world's language to a $60k bag.... You're not helping the argument here. I'm not saying the pen isn't worth a lot of money, I'm just saying it's a little over priced. Maybe more like $2k/$2.5k would be more realistic.



Your argument is still subjective. Plenty of people don't care about music; that pen could be the inspiration for someone to author a novel, or that bag could be another representation of creativity or happiness to another.


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## narad (Oct 31, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> You're comparing a $4k tool/instrument (custom shop guitar) that is used to create the world's language to a $60k bag.... You're not helping the argument here. I'm not saying the pen isn't worth a lot of money, I'm just saying it's a little over priced. Maybe more like $2k/$2.5k would be more realistic.



The pen maker's arbitrary number is wrong and your arbitrary number is right?


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 31, 2019)

JSanta said:


> Your argument is still subjective. Plenty of people don't care about music; that pen could be the inspiration for someone to author a novel, or that bag could be another representation of creativity or happiness to another.




Something is worth exactly how much anyone is willing to pay for it. That’s all. 

also how you gonna gift a millionaire a 2k pen. Why you gotta be insulting like that.


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## Albake21 (Oct 31, 2019)

Apparently I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Love it. I get it guys, people can buy whatever they like, I'm not saying they can't. I'm just trying to show the comparison being made here. People can do what they want with their money.


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## JustinRhoads1980 (Oct 31, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Apparently I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Love it. I get it guys, people can buy whatever they like, I'm not saying they can't. I'm just trying to show the comparison being made here. People can do what they want with their money.



Totally agree with you bro.


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## oracles (Oct 31, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Apparently I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Love it. I get it guys, people can buy whatever they like, I'm not saying they can't. I'm just trying to show the comparison being made here. People can do what they want with their money.



You're absolutely allowed to have an opinion, we're just on opposing sides of that opinion.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 31, 2019)

I mean if the opinion is that you wouldn’t pay that much for something. That’s fine. 

But other people do. So the opinion that no one should pay that much is just wrong. 

all prices are made up man.


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## protest (Oct 31, 2019)

JSanta said:


> This is it exactly IMO. Nothing is worth more than what people are willing to pay. For me, something like a A. Lange & Söhne watch, while gorgeous, is not something I would ever put $100k into. But I get why people do. Same with fountain pens, guitars, etc...



It's like $3,000 for the clasp on one of their leather straps. I can't get behind that one.


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## Andromalia (Oct 31, 2019)

JSanta said:


> This is it exactly IMO. Nothing is worth more than what people are willing to pay. For me, something like a A. Lange & Söhne watch, while gorgeous, is not something I would ever put $100k into. But I get why people do. Same with fountain pens, guitars, etc...



If you had 200 millions you probably would. If you just had 100K, a house makes better sense but if you're waaaaaaay over, price doesn't really matter. Sadly I'll probably never own a datagraph.


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## AltecGreen (Oct 31, 2019)

I'm surprised at the interest in fountain pens here. Over at TGP, they were quite dismissive.

It's worth separating maki-e from fountain pens. maki-e is an art form that predates fountain pens by ~1100 years. The fountain pen in this case is just the vehicle. Maki-e will cost what it costs whether it is on a pen, a box, or a plate. Also, the price spans quite a range depending on the artist. I have some pens from a small company done by journeymen that costs $1500. A famous company like Namiki (Pilot) can charge and easily get $20+K for a new pen done by an establish master that is recognized by the guild. Maki-e is art and you buy it as art. You can just as well buy the same pen without maki-e and pay $200-$1k.


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## wakjob (Nov 1, 2019)

We're in a global currency crisis...

Subconsciously, everyone is feeling it...
Wages haven't kept up with inflation since 1989, with the elliptical curve getting worse in more recent years.

Everyone's buying power is being severely diminished by the endless printing of fiat currency.

It's been a long, SUBTLE (by design) con on the people.

I'm the single guy without any debt or money issues...usually. But lately even I'm feeling the pinch.


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## Avedas (Nov 1, 2019)

nightlight said:


> It also seems a lot of the custom shop craze is hype-driven, at least for a majority of people. The world is now social media-obsessed and everyone wants to buy a guitar, bring it home and then post photos on Instagram or on forums to tell everyone how great it is and how they're going to keep it forever. Wash, rinse, repeat a little down the line.
> 
> I lol'ed so hard at the thread where the guy bought a custom shop guitar and was raving about it and then turned around two weeks later and said the guitar was so badly made it could not be intonated properly. Not at the guy's misfortune. that's crushing. But just this tendency nowadays to go out there and make recommendations and be a virtual gear guru to the world.


There have been NGDs on here where the poster mentioned they had already sold it before posting the thread.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 1, 2019)

AltecGreen said:


> I'm surprised at the interest in fountain pens here. Over at TGP, they were quite dismissive.
> 
> It's worth separating maki-e from fountain pens. maki-e is an art form that predates fountain pens by ~1100 years. The fountain pen in this case is just the vehicle. Maki-e will cost what it costs whether it is on a pen, a box, or a plate. Also, the price spans quite a range depending on the artist. I have some pens from a small company done by journeymen that costs $1500. A famous company like Namiki (Pilot) can charge and easily get $20+K for a new pen done by an establish master that is recognized by the guild. Maki-e is art and you buy it as art. You can just as well buy the same pen without maki-e and pay $200-$1k.



tgp is filled with people that already cashed out their retirement to buy les pauls. don't tell them there's anything else out there that costs money. 



wakjob said:


> We're in a global currency crisis...
> 
> Subconsciously, everyone is feeling it...
> Wages haven't kept up with inflation since 1989, with the elliptical curve getting worse in more recent years.
> ...



eh. can't be that bad.


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## wakjob (Nov 1, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> eh. can't be that bad.



The collapse has already started.
Look at south america, haiti, ect...

Hundreds of billions of $ pumped into the repo markets every week for over six weeks now. The fortress banks are BEYOND leveraged out passed 2008 levels. The global risk has NEVER seen anything like this in history.

The markets have been out pacing GDP to historical levels also...bad news.

It's all coming to a head.
Hope you don't keep a lot of money in a bank.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 1, 2019)

wakjob said:


> The collapse has already started.
> Look at south america, haiti, ect...
> 
> Hundreds of billions of $ pumped into the repo markets every week for over six weeks now. The fortress banks are BEYOND leveraged out passed 2008 levels. The global risk has NEVER seen anything like this in history.
> ...



I can assure you that I spend every cent I make as fast as I can make it.


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## wakjob (Nov 1, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I can assure you that I spend every cent I make as fast as I can make it.



LOL!!! me too !!!
Got back into playing since the weather turned...
and GAS is killing my wallet!


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 1, 2019)

So what you're saying is we should all be buying more guitars and gear while we can...


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## Merrekof (Nov 1, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> So what you're saying is we should all be buying more guitars and gear while we can...


Dammit, I already spent it on a house..


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## wakjob (Nov 1, 2019)

Merrekof said:


> Dammit, I already spent it on a house..



Sorry about your luck.
The 2008 crash killed house values, but they came back quickly and are now WAY overvalued...

I'm buying after this inevitable market correction. 
Apartment life can be a drag...I miss my 100 watters.


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## nightlight (Nov 1, 2019)

I suppose most people stateside don't feel it like people in other countries. I see it here in Singapore, currency depreciating, prices rising, job market shrinking, unemployment rising, layoffs. 

It seems to be the exact opposite in the States though. 

Of course, that might change very fast. If no one has the money to pay for American products overseas, suddenly the US economy might experience the same symptoms as everywhere else. 

Financial crises seem to be cyclical, but the cycles seem to be getting shorter and shorter in the last few decades. 1997 Asian crisis, 2008 Lehmann Bros collapse. Next one in 2020-21?

I don't think it's a good idea to park cash in a bank either. They don't give you much in the way of interest anyway.


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## Avedas (Nov 2, 2019)

Can't say I'm feeling an economic downturn over here. Although housing has never been a smart investment.


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## narad (Nov 2, 2019)

Avedas said:


> Can't say I'm feeling an economic downturn over here. Although housing has never been a smart investment.



You can't downturn what's already bottomed out.


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## Merrekof (Nov 2, 2019)

Avedas said:


> Can't say I'm feeling an economic downturn over here. Although housing has never been a smart investment.


Here in Belgium only the poorest feel it slightly, I believe. The middleclass and up are living more luxurious than ever. 
Housing here is the smartest investment imo. House prices have gone up pretty hard here and it doesn't look like they're gonna drop anytime. Leaving your money in the bank only causes it to decline in value. Then there's the stock market with a risk involved.


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## Velokki (Nov 2, 2019)

There could be room for innovation here. A builder could do a really plain barebones build, called the Recessioncaster.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Nov 2, 2019)

Merrekof said:


> Here in Belgium only the poorest feel it slightly, I believe. The middleclass and up are living more luxurious than ever.
> Housing here is the smartest investment imo. House prices have gone up pretty hard here and it doesn't look like they're gonna drop anytime. Leaving your money in the bank only causes it to decline in value. Then there's the stock market with a risk involved.



It's the same here in the UK, although we've been suffering from the fallout of the Brexit vote (and haven't even left yet!) but houses are still the best investment here. The government is making it harder to "buy to let" houses in terms of tax, but with a decent deposit, "buy to let" is still free money! It's *literally *someone else buying you an extra house!


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## chopeth (Nov 2, 2019)

^this is a shame. It's the same in my country. Imo governments should bury in tax those who want to get profit from a human right like having a place to rest your bones every day.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Nov 2, 2019)

chopeth said:


> ^this is a shame. It's the same in my country. Imo governments should bury in tax those who want to get profit from a human right like having a place to rest your bones every day.



I'm not saying you can't have a place to rest your bones, there are shop doorways everywhere  

I work damn hard for my money, I've worked damn hard since I was in school and now I'm reaping the rewards. With regards to the tax issues, the same fucktards that voted for Brexit are the ones who put a government in power that lets me have extra properties and ironically they're the ones that are renting homes not buying...


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## mnemonic (Nov 2, 2019)

chopeth said:


> ^this is a shame. It's the same in my country. Imo governments should bury in tax those who want to get profit from a human right like having a place to rest your bones every day.



That’s a great way to skyrocket rent, since you’ll suddenly have a lot fewer landlords looking to rent out property.


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## narad (Nov 2, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> That’s a great way to skyrocket rent, since you’ll suddenly have a lot fewer landlords looking to rent out property.



On the other hand, not doing it is a great way to have all your property owned by people who don't even live in your country.


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## wakjob (Nov 2, 2019)

nightlight said:


> It seems to be the exact opposite in the States though.



We will be the last in line when the collapse happens...
The world will hate us more than ever at that point.

In America we still have pretty much free access to borrowed money. I only go into my bank once a month, b/c when the branch manager (she's hot) sees me, she always pesters me to get a credit card or CD or take out another loan, ect...

Why do you think the population of idiots in the U.S. are protesting stupid crap like Climate Change and gender rights ect...when they are involved in the greatest fraud in human history. We're kept very pacified and VERY distracted to what's REALLY going on in our nation.


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## wakjob (Nov 2, 2019)

narad said:


> On the other hand, not doing it is a great way to have all your property owned by people who don't even live in your country.



This guy gets it.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Nov 2, 2019)

narad said:


> On the other hand, not doing it is a great way to have all your property owned by people who don't even live in your country.



Tell that to the Duke of Westminster


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## narad (Nov 2, 2019)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Tell that to the Duke of Westminster



I don't know what that means.


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## chopeth (Nov 2, 2019)

In my country not only certain politicians (conservative and right winged especially) build "social" houses from the state funds, but also they sell it later to vulture funds companies (managed by their descendents) who acquire them as a bargain and immediately rose the rent to 300% making people having to leave their homes which they have signed paying a reasonable monthly amount for a long term in years. That's a freaking good deal except for the citizens. I know well what I'm talking about, while the rest of the world was sneezing from the 2008 crisis, in my country we had that and a huge real state bubble popping at the same time that pretty much changed my entire country, making it a lot poorer and more unequal. The banks broke and we had to pay 60.000.000.000€ that we will never see again while there's less money for education, health care, retirement pensions, people with special needs,... but anyway, my country is at a third world democratically speaking.


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## Andromalia (Nov 2, 2019)

narad said:


> On the other hand, not doing it is a great way to have all your property owned by people who don't even live in your country.


There are other ways. I think Thailand forbids foreigners to buy real estate, and I wouldn't be surprised if China does the same. I have always thought tax incentives were the wrong answer to a problem, because they just edge the poorer out of a market. You want to limit rent ? Don't do a tax incentive, just limit the rent.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Nov 2, 2019)

narad said:


> I don't know what that means.



The current Duke of Westminster, Hugh Grosvenor is a member of the British aristocracy and the world's richest man under 30 and it's all from owning property in London. He's known to own up to 80% of the buildings, both commercial and residential in some of the richer areas. I'm not saying that foreigners don't invest heavily in London properties, they do, but a lot of the good stuff is still owned domestically.

I'm not sure if the Duke plays guitar though...


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## narad (Nov 2, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> There are other ways. I think Thailand forbids foreigners to buy real estate, and I wouldn't be surprised if China does the same. I have always thought tax incentives were the wrong answer to a problem, because they just edge the poorer out of a market. You want to limit rent ? Don't do a tax incentive, just limit the rent.



I agree but then you'd just have residents signing on behalf of foreign powers, and foreign investors sending friends/family to that area to maintain residence and later purchase property. Taxing is the more sure-fire strategy.



_MonSTeR_ said:


> The current Duke of Westminster, Hugh Grosvenor is a member of the British aristocracy and the world's richest man under 30 and it's all from owning property in London. He's known to own up to 80% of the buildings, both commercial and residential in some of the richer areas. I'm not saying that foreigners don't invest heavily in London properties, they do, but a lot of the good stuff is still owned domestically.
> 
> I'm not sure if the Duke plays guitar though...



So instead of a city owned mostly by foreign investors, it's owned by the wealthy aristocracy AND foreign investors. Was that supposed to be better? We're talking about foreign investment being bad because it's preventing people from actually living in the area from having a roof over their heads and any decent financial investment. More than 10% of recent homes sold in London went to foreign investors, and about 30% in areas like Kensington or Chelsea. Disgusting when everyone else is living 3-5 people to a flat. And when I was in London I was making more than average wage and nearly 40% of my paycheck went to my rent. That's otherwise known as housing stress.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 2, 2019)

narad said:


> I agree but then you'd just have residents signing on behalf of foreign powers, and foreign investors sending friends/family to that area to maintain residence and later purchase property. Taxing is the more sure-fire strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of a city owned mostly by foreign investors, it's owned by the wealthy aristocracy AND foreign investors. Was that supposed to be better? We're talking about foreign investment being bad because it's preventing people from actually living in the area from having a roof over their heads and any decent financial investment. More than 10% of recent homes sold in London went to foreign investors, and about 30% in areas like Kensington or Chelsea. Disgusting when everyone else is living 3-5 people to a flat. And when I was in London I was making more than average wage and nearly 40% of my paycheck went to my rent. That's otherwise known as housing stress.



Here in the US there's a huge shift as private citizens buy fewer homes (stagnant wages, under employment, student loans, etc.) and large corporations buy up all the single family homes to convert to rental property that they'll never sell.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Nov 2, 2019)

narad said:


> I agree but then you'd just have residents signing on behalf of foreign powers, and foreign investors sending friends/family to that area to maintain residence and later purchase property. Taxing is the more sure-fire strategy.
> 
> So instead of a city owned mostly by foreign investors, it's owned by the wealthy aristocracy AND foreign investors. Was that supposed to be better? We're talking about foreign investment being bad because it's preventing people from actually living in the area from having a roof over their heads and any decent financial investment. More than 10% of recent homes sold in London went to foreign investors, and about 30% in areas like Kensington or Chelsea. Disgusting when everyone else is living 3-5 people to a flat. And when I was in London I was making more than average wage and nearly 40% of my paycheck went to my rent. That's otherwise known as housing stress.



Unless you're already stinking rich or are using the City as a way to get stinking rich, living in London is a mistake. Full stop. A week's rent in London is a ticket to Birmingham and a month's rent there. There are coffee shops and call centres in other cities just like there are in the capital. 

Still don't know whether Grosvenor buys off the shelf guitars or has them made...


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## wakjob (Nov 3, 2019)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Unless you're already stinking rich or are using the City as a way to get stinking rich, living in London is a mistake. Full stop. A week's rent in London is a ticket to Birmingham and a month's rent there. There are coffee shops and call centres in other cities just like there are in the capital.
> 
> Still don't know whether Grosvenor buys off the shelf guitars or has them made...



That's every major city in the U.S.

I just listened to a documentary with a property broker.
She was taking the doc. maker around Seattle talking about the values...now, and just as little as a year ago. Some properties have increased 4-500% in a couple of years.

You could invest $600k when a development is in the planning stages...then about 2/3 the way to being complete, you could sell for as much a $2+ million!


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 3, 2019)

wakjob said:


> That's every major city in the U.S.
> 
> I just listened to a documentary with a property broker.
> She was taking the doc. maker around Seattle talking about the values...now, and just as little as a year ago. Some properties have increased 4-500% in a couple of years.
> ...



that sounds pretty great though?


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## Avedas (Nov 3, 2019)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Unless you're already stinking rich or are using the City as a way to get stinking rich, living in London is a mistake. Full stop. A week's rent in London is a ticket to Birmingham and a month's rent there. There are coffee shops and call centres in other cities just like there are in the capital.
> 
> Still don't know whether Grosvenor buys off the shelf guitars or has them made...


A friend of mine working in London told me a lot of people don't make enough to live in a decent neighborhood in London, so they have to commute from far out of town with expensive train fees and companies there typically don't cover transportation costs.


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## wakjob (Nov 3, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> that sounds pretty great though?



Try buying a house.

It's completely artificially inflated by speculation.
The bubbles like these usually pop every 4-7 years.
We're LONG over due...it's gonna be a bad one.


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## jephjacques (Nov 3, 2019)

Yeah gentrification and AirBnB have made most major city centers unaffordable for anyone who isn't already a multimillionaire. Canada's real estate market is especially bonkers- here in Nova Scotia we're actually LOSING population, yet people keep building luxury high-rise condominiums that no one can afford.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2019)

Avedas said:


> A friend of mine working in London told me a lot of people don't make enough to live in a decent neighborhood in London, so they have to commute from far out of town with expensive train fees and companies there typically don't cover transportation costs.



That pretty much describes just about every large city in the United States as well.

With the addition that our public transit infrastructure is basically nonexistent outside the absolute biggest cities. So not only do you need to live farther away, you have to purchase and maintain a car.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 3, 2019)

wakjob said:


> Try buying a house.
> 
> It's completely artificially inflated by speculation.
> The bubbles like these usually pop every 4-7 years.
> We're LONG over due...it's gonna be a bad one.



I mean as long as you're buying when the prices are going up. and then selling
or 
and holding stead while they are going down.

it still sounds pretty great?


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## wakjob (Nov 3, 2019)

Australia and Canada are about to have their own housing market crash soon.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean as long as you're buying when the prices are going up. and then selling
> or
> and holding stead while they are going down.
> 
> it still sounds pretty great?



It's a good scenario if you're casually looking for an investment property, a bad scenario if you're a first time home buyer looking to break out of the rental cycle.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 3, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's a good scenario if you're casually looking for an investment property, a bad scenario if you're a first time home buyer looking to break out of the rental cycle.



Kind of. That implies that you can't choose when to stop renting. 

Even with wakjobs scenario. If you're making your first purchase now after purchases have increased 500% that's super bad. 

If you made your first purchase a few years ago at 600k you did really good. 

If you can save money and buy something after the market crashes that's super good too.

Of course that barrier to initial entry at 600k is really high. But that's a different problem.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> That implies that you can't choose when to stop renting.



That's not an impossible scenario as rents skyrocket in certain areas and properties change management or go through "renovations".


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## _MonSTeR_ (Nov 3, 2019)

Avedas said:


> A friend of mine working in London told me a lot of people don't make enough to live in a decent neighborhood in London, so they have to commute from far out of town with expensive train fees and companies there typically don't cover transportation costs.



Absolutely, the London commuter belt is famous for overpriced housing. A lot of people in more skilled jobs put up with the commute for a long while knowing that when they sell their commuter belt property, they’ll either have a massive house outside of commuting distance, or the same sized house, a nice pension pot and not have to go into the city anymore... The thing that the U.K. has going for it here that larger countries don’t is that it’s so small geographically. Which means relocation is cheap and easy. Even if you’re in an unskilled job, if you’re catching the train into London every day and are affording that, then typically you can afford to relocate to a more affordable city.

Too many people choose to live near and commute into London when they would be financially better off in the same situation with one of our other major cities, Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.


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## Andromalia (Nov 3, 2019)

> Too many people choose to live near and commute into London when they would be financially better off in the same situation with one of our other major cities, Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.



Well, one of the major factors here (I live in Versailles, not far from the castle, and own 3 flats in Paris) is that it's all well and good to go find a job elsewhere except, your family and friends won't follow you.
I choose to rent a small place near work to avoid commuting, rather than live in one of my places. I'm done with losing 2hours of my life a day doing that. It allows me to not have a car, too, which is a significant saving.
Going to a provincial town has little appeal, I have no friends there and their football teams suck. As a born and bred parisian I find those a little too provincial for my tastes.

As a side note, it's a mistake to see real estate as a market. Each good is individual and can have its own value.


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## Vyn (Nov 3, 2019)

wakjob said:


> Australia and Canada are about to have their own housing market crash soon.



About to? It's already started haha. There's been a slight increase in property value in the last month however the trend is definitely down. You're going to see an insanely highly levl of retrenchment soon. It's the whole reason I haven't purchased a house in the last couple of years because this was seen a mile away - doesn't matter how low interest rates are if wages aren't growing at all. I'm lucky to work in a public sector job with a good Enterprise Agreement that has mandated wage rises in it as well as performance rises however most of the country is still on the same money as 10 years ago while inflation has been chugging along.


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## wakjob (Nov 3, 2019)

^
Ah...good to see other people paying attention.


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## Ancestor (Nov 4, 2019)

It seems to be going in the opposite direction imho. A bunch of little guitar companies have appeared. Plus every major company has a custom shop.


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## Thaeon (Nov 4, 2019)

Lets put it this way as far as housing in the US in concerned. I make nearly double the national average individual salary in the US (not household). After taxes, rent, standard bills, gas, insurance, and food, I paid more than I made. Rent will go up more than inflation every year (around 10%). Inflation will be around 5-6%. The average annual raise in the US is around 4%. Its an unsustainable system.


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## Thaeon (Nov 4, 2019)

As far as custom guitars? I see new shops and new designs popping up all the time. Lots of competition. Which makes for a solid market of good products at competitive prices.


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