# Am I dumb for buying a 25.5" scale guitar for drop F#?



## landmvrks (Dec 17, 2020)

Ended up getting a killer deal on this guitar... but after reading some threads I'm thinking I might have made a mistake. I'll be playing mostly drop F#, drop F, and drop G (Djent/Metalcore stuff). Is playing those tunings and the strings required going to make getting better at guitar a hell of a lot harder, and in general just not be a good idea? Should I sell this (I'd be able to sell it for more than I paid) and find something with a 26.5" scale?


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## Masoo2 (Dec 17, 2020)

No, you're fine dude. It's a fantastic guitar. Yes, the scale is a bit short for Drop F#/Drop F, but nothing terrible.

Jason Richardson, of Chelsea Grin, Born of Osiris, and now-solo work/All That Remains fame, has used 25.5 inch scale guitars with 11-58 gauge strings down to Drop G for years and is known to push it down to Drop F# as well. Additionally, I'm like 99% certain the first Humanity's Last Breath album was recorded on the same 25.5 inch Ibanez Buster used for this Vildhjarta cover:



It all just depends on your tension and tone preferences. I for one prefer lighter tension even though I pick stupid hard because of the brighter tone associated with thinner strings, therefore I'm fine using thin gauges and tuning them low even though tuning stability and intonation may occasionally pose problems. If you prefer higher tension, you could use something like an 80-90 gauge string without problem, but note it'll be slightly darker and a bit more "oomphier" compared to like a 58-64 gauge string which would be sharper and slightly more defined.

Maybe something in the 68-76 range would do you good? Not super thick like a 90, but also not as thin as a 58 which many use for tunings up to a C# or D.

Always could just compensate for tone with your amp/processing setup if you go for a thicker gauge but still want a brighter/punchier tone.


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## landmvrks (Dec 17, 2020)

Masoo2 said:


> No, you're fine dude. It's a fantastic guitar. Yes, the scale is a bit short for Drop F#/Drop F/Drop G, but nothing terrible.
> 
> Jason Richardson, of Chelsea Grin, Born of Osiris, and now-solo work/All That Remains fame, has used 25.5 inch scale guitars with 11-58 gauge strings down to Drop G for years and is known to push it down to Drop F# as well. Additionally, I'm like 99% certain the first Humanity's Last Breath album was recorded on the same 25.5 inch Ibanez Buster used for this Vildhjarta cover:
> 
> ...



Appreciate the input. I'm by no means an excellent guitarist, and I'm still trying to get to the point that I can play these songs. Will using this kind of setup make learning more difficult due to the not ideal string tension? Those guys are pros, so I imagine it's not that bad for them. I was thinking something like a Beefy Slinky 11-54 set with a 74 up top might be the best compromise?


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## Atefred (Dec 17, 2020)

I do f# on a 25.5 guitar with a 70 gauge low string. It's just about doable, though the guitar has an evertune which helps keep things in tune, especially when picking hard. 
I have a multiscale with 27.8 scale on the longer side on which I also use a 70 gauge string for f# it feels significantly better (to me), but overall when recording it doesn't sound significantly different.


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## USMarine75 (Dec 17, 2020)

I think for "normal" tension you'd be around an 0.80. But as said above, it will be very dark/bass sounding. 0.58 will feel loose but if you don't have a heavy attack then you'll be fine.

https://tension.stringjoy.com/


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## Masoo2 (Dec 17, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Appreciate the input. I'm by no means an excellent guitarist, and I'm still trying to get to the point that I can play these songs. Will using this kind of setup make learning more difficult due to the not ideal string tension? Those guys are pros, so I imagine it's not that bad for them. I was thinking something like a Beefy Slinky 11-54 set with a 74 up top might be the best compromise?


11-54 + 74 would work good, I'd call that a pretty standard Drop F#/Drop F set regardless of scale length and what I see lots of people use. It's not as thin as I'd personally go nowadays, but I used to run 11-54 + 74 for Drop F on a 7 string without tension problems back when I was coming off of using 90+ gauge strings for F# on a 27 inch 8 string (aka pretty thick). Nowadays I'd probably run 10.5-48 + 62 or so, but again I'm used to light tension where as you may not necessarily be.

You'll be fine man, just go for it and love the guitar. If you do end up having tension problems (not saying you will though), something like an 80 or 66 would be a good compromise in either direction depending on the problem.

EDIT: if the tension becomes a real genuine issue, could always just tune to Drop G with decently thick strings and pitch shift down to Drop F# or Drop F but again the tone issue starts to come into play. Drop G is absolutely normal on 25.5, tons of bands have been doing it for years.


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## MrWulf (Dec 17, 2020)

Personally, i wouldnt but i also like my B standard at 64-11 so i'd prefer a heavier gauge playing something that low


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## Dayn (Dec 17, 2020)

I would second what everyone else has said in that you can do it.

Personally, I don't think you should do it. My own experience is that longer scales with thinner strings will almost always be better. The thicker the string, the less it sounds like a guitar, and the shorter the scale, the thicker you need to go.

That will certainly be very pronounced for F#. You can always opt for a thinner string for lower tension to help the sound, but the shorter scale makes a thinner string less desirable.

I'd opt for a longer scale. But it's also an Ibanez Prestige that you apparently got for a good price, so on that alone I'd keep it (but wouldn't tune it so low). So give it a try, see how you like it.


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## landmvrks (Dec 17, 2020)

Dayn said:


> I would second what everyone else has said in that you can do it.
> 
> Personally, I don't think you should do it. My own experience is that longer scales with thinner strings will almost always be better. The thicker the string, the less it sounds like a guitar, and the shorter the scale, the thicker you need to go.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the input. Yeah I paid $700 for it, pretty insane.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 17, 2020)

People have tuned lower with heavier strings and shorter scales. You’ll be fine, but you may just have to go through a few sets of strings to find what you like personally.


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## Hoss632 (Dec 17, 2020)

Like mentioned you can do it. Just gotta see if you like how it sounds before you decide if you want to go to a 26.5 or 27 inch scale length. I personally wouldn't go below Drop A on 25.5 but that is just a preference thing. In the end you have an ibanez prestige for under 1000 bucks. So you have a badass axe.


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## shupe13 (Dec 17, 2020)

Damn dude. Nice!


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## Roadsterjosh (Dec 17, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Appreciate the input. Yeah I paid $700 for it, pretty insane.


That is a smoking deal if it's new, and a good deal if it's used. I have had one for a little over a year and absolutely love the guitar. I am in standard and drop A mostly, and have a 26.5 scale for anything lower.


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## landmvrks (Dec 17, 2020)

Roadsterjosh said:


> That is a smoking deal if it's new, and a good deal if it's used. I have had one for a little over a year and absolutely love the guitar. I am in standard and drop A mostly, and have a 26.5 scale for anything lower.



It was used, but it's priced at $1499 at the cheapest place I see, so I figured $700 is decent. It actually plays really nicely tuned to F# as far as my inexperienced hands can tell. I am having issues tuning the top string, no idea how the hell to tune a string that low accurately... sounds fine but on the tuner it bounces all over the place.


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## possumkiller (Dec 18, 2020)

Lowest I would ever go with 25.5 would be A and with at least a 60-65 gauge low A. Standard gauges for 7s always have some floppy ass 50something. If I were tuning that low, I would just get a 28 inch scale and toss a 74 on the low F#. If you try to use a bigger gauge on a shorter scale to compensate for tension, it sounds muffled and lifeless. If you use a better sounding thinner string, it's floppy as fuck and you either need to get the rest of the strings loose enough to match or get used to playing with one floppy string with the rest of the normal strings. There is a reason the M8M uses a short bass scale.


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## trem licking (Dec 18, 2020)

Tune the low string with a 12th fret harmonic. Makes tuning easier


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 18, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Those guys are pros, so I imagine it's not that bad for them.



This is an important thing to take into account. We all reference Jason for using a 58/59 for a low G but he is not a normal player. His ability on the instrument puts him in a very small group of players that can play at that level.

If you watch Jason he treats the 7th string like a different instrument compared to the other 6. He picks it at a different angle, different place, Different velocity, Palm mutes it further up, Frets and bends it lighter. This is from surgically refining his technique so he doesn’t even have to think when going back and forth. 

shorter scales can work fine in the studio but turn to mud in a live setting where a baritone is vital.


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## bostjan (Dec 18, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> This is an important thing to take into account. We all reference Jason for using a 58/59 for a low G but he is not a normal player. His ability on the instrument puts him in a very small group of players that can play at that level.
> 
> If you watch Jason he treats the 7th string like a different instrument compared to the other 6. He picks it at a different angle, different place, Different velocity, Palm mutes it further up, Frets and bends it lighter. This is from surgically refining his technique so he doesn’t even have to think when going back and forth.
> 
> shorter scales can work fine in the studio but turn to mud in a live setting where a baritone is vital.





OP:
Everyone uses different techniques and has different expectations. That's why answer questions like "will ____ work for _____ tuning?" are impossible to definitively answer. If I pick up a guitar and try to achieve drop F#, I'm going to think it sounds like a bucket of farts and flab at 25.5", no matter what string gauge or pickups or whatever. Your mileage may and will vary.


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## Bearitone (Dec 18, 2020)

You aren’t dumb. I just don’t think your choice was the best.

I use a .085 to play in Drop F on a 28.625” scale guitar and I feel like I have just enough tension to play fast/aggressively without the strings just noodling around everywhere.

I would say go fucking straight to a .090 if you want to do drop F on a 25.5” and be prepared to do some setup troubleshooting. I almost never get a low tuned guitar, with thick gauges, back from a tech in actual well-playing condition. I always have to tweak a little (or a lot).


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## landmvrks (Dec 18, 2020)

Ugh, looks like I might be selling this thing then. Shame, great guitar for the money, but I'm going to be sitting here looking at it every day saying thinking a 26.5 would be better. Any 26.5 guitars that can be had second hand for around $1200 that are just as nice and build for low tunings? Don't really care about pickups, I can change them. Was considering a Schecter KM-7 Signature Artist, seems like a good deal and can find them under $1000 used... or potentially an Iron Label and replace the pickups?


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## Bearitone (Dec 18, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Ugh, looks like I might be selling this thing then. Shame, great guitar for the money, but I'm going to be sitting here looking at it every day saying thinking a 26.5 would be better. Any 26.5 guitars that can be had second hand for around $1200 that are just as nice and build for low tunings? Don't really care about pickups, I can change them. Was considering a Schecter KM-7 Signature Artist, seems like a good deal and can find them under $1000 used... or potentially an Iron Label and replace the pickups?



An Agile 727 or 728 (if you can find a used one) would be recommendation 1000 times over.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2020)

gonna be the voice of reason...

honestly it's not that great of a deal. used prestiges are like 50 percent off. minimum. 

That's a newer guitar so it's a pretty good deal. But at some point that guitar is gonna go for 500 dollars. 

On gauge and tunings. You should try it. You might find that it works. From my experience guitar strings thicker then 75 or so stop sounding and behaving like guitar strings. 

I used to run an 14-80 on my baritone and switched to 12-64. the 80 wasn't bad. but the 64 sounds much more like a guitar.

That being said for what you're doing...a 26.5 isn't that much longer then a 25.5 so it might still work for you. 

I think I'd want at least a 27 inch scale for what you're doing. 

grab a Schecter reaper 7.


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## landmvrks (Dec 18, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> gonna be the voice of reason...
> 
> honestly it's not that great of a deal. used prestiges are like 50 percent off. minimum.
> 
> ...



Interesting, because when I was looking around I couldn't find any decently priced Prestiges, that's why I thought this one at $1000 was a steal... and that was before I got the extra $300 off. I found a couple but they were dinged up bad. Where are you finding these deals? 

So many artists I listen to use Ibanez's, and one of my goals is to be able to learn everything from the following album (this song is in drop F#, as are most on the album):



Any idea what Ibanez he's playing here? Looks like it could be some custom made one, I can't tell the scale length.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Interesting, because when I was looking around I couldn't find any decently priced Prestiges, that's why I thought this one at $1000 was a steal... and that was before I got the extra $300 off. I found a couple but they were dinged up bad. Where are you finding these deals?
> 
> So many artists I listen to use Ibanez's, and one of my goals is to be able to learn everything from the following album (this song is in drop F#, as are most on the album):
> 
> ...




that's a refinished rgixl. It's 27 inches.


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## landmvrks (Dec 18, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> that's a refinished rgixl. It's 27 inches.



Thanks! Interesting that dudes of this caliber are playing such cheap guitars. I saw in a live video from earlier this year another of my favorite bands using a different Iron Label in a live show. I was actually looking at the RGIXL, it's cheap enough that I could swap pickups and even the bridge if necessary.

EDIT: I just looked, the volume knob is different, at least to the current RGIXL7. Are you sure that's it?


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## aesthyrian (Dec 18, 2020)

That's against forum rules I'm afraid.


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## landmvrks (Dec 18, 2020)

aesthyrian said:


> That's against forum rules I'm afraid.



Wait, what is?


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## aesthyrian (Dec 18, 2020)

Drop F# on a 25.5"


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## landmvrks (Dec 18, 2020)

aesthyrian said:


> Drop F# on a 25.5"



Yes, I've committed the cardinal sin. Please forgive me.


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## robski92 (Dec 18, 2020)

I've done it and had no issues. I would try it and see what you like. I prefer my string gauges to be a little lighter. The sets I use below are just what I've found I liked over the years.

Generally the first thing I consider for the tensions is how the first 6 strings feel. I use 10-52 for D standard and drop C on my 6 strings, so naturally I'll use that for drop G and then mess around with what tension feels best for the low G. I've played everything from 62-74 and found 68 to be perfect for me. I also make sure the tensions I use are good for other tunings since I change them a lot. 

For example, I usually change around the tunings below on the same guitar. Naturally the last tuning with the low F gets a little floppy, but I', just more conscious of not picking it as hard.
DAFCGDG
DAFCGCG
DAFCGCF

10-52+68 for drop G
11-52+74 for drop F#
12-60+80 for drop F (I think I would prefer 12-54 more).

I either use D'Addario NYXL or Stringjoy for my strings.

Hope this helps!


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## ixlramp (Dec 19, 2020)

Only you can judge this, it can certainly be functional, this is all down to your personal situation, technique and tastes in tone and tension.



landmvrks said:


> It actually plays really nicely tuned to F# as far as my inexperienced hands can tell.


... and then ...


landmvrks said:


> Ugh, looks like I might be selling this thing then.


You are being far too easily affected by other people's personal tastes, which are mostly irrelevant. Only you can judge, give it time and experiment and you will find out for yourself and gain experience and learn a lot on the way.

I have a 25" scale guitar tuned to F using a steelwound .070, low tension but stable pitch and sounds good to me.


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## couverdure (Dec 20, 2020)

Jesse from ERRA plays an Ibanez RG tuned to Drop F#. Maybe you could try asking him on Instagram what string gauges he uses.



Marc Okubo's signature Kiesel is a 25.5" and he's also tuned to a similar tuning (Drop B with a low F#). I remember seeing his string gauges being 12-56 + 70 according to an IG post.


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## maximummetal288 (Dec 20, 2020)

There's plenty of people who play Drop F on a 25.5 scale. On the reverse, James Hetfield has played a baritone in Drop C. 

Don't get too caught up in what other people do and just find whatever works for you.


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## landmvrks (Dec 20, 2020)

robski92 said:


> I've done it and had no issues. I would try it and see what you like. I prefer my string gauges to be a little lighter. The sets I use below are just what I've found I liked over the years.
> 
> Generally the first thing I consider for the tensions is how the first 6 strings feel. I use 10-52 for D standard and drop C on my 6 strings, so naturally I'll use that for drop G and then mess around with what tension feels best for the low G. I've played everything from 62-74 and found 68 to be perfect for me. I also make sure the tensions I use are good for other tunings since I change them a lot.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the info! It's honestly not feeling too bad for me as is, not sure what strings are on right now as I bought the guitar used. Every string is buzzing like crazy though, definitely going to have to take this to a shop for a setup.


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## Restarted (Dec 20, 2020)

If you understand the "bad" things about a low F# on 25.5, you can work around them. You need either thicker strings, or the strings will have lower tension. 

Thick strings: eq, and more eq. Fix the attack and brightness. 
Lower tension: pick softer

Another option is tuning it to drop Ab and using a pitch shifter for drop F#. 

There are very few problems that can't be solved. It's just a matter of how inconvenient it'll be for you.


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## j3ps3 (Dec 20, 2020)

I found even 26.5" (Jackson DKA-8 PRO - Horrible guitar for the price. I love Jackson guitars, but this one made me seriously question what kind of stuff they put out nowadays) to be completely unplayable when tuned to F. Tuning that low has always seemed like a compromise on some aspects of the instruments and I've found that the best scale length for me is the 28-26.5". The lower side could still use a little more tension, but increasing the scale length would make it harder to play. Gonna try and make my next guitar 28.5-27" just to see if that 0.5" makes the tone that much more better.


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## broj15 (Dec 20, 2020)

It's possible but it probably won't sound very good/how you want it to sound without some really heavy processing.
Also, expect to run into problems with intonation on the low string and possibly having to drill out the tuner to accommodate a string that thick. The nut will also need to be totally recut to fit a string that size so if you ever decide you wanna change string gauge to something lighter you'll need to start over with a brand new but.


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## akinari (Dec 20, 2020)

The first time I ever went down to F# was on a 25.5" RG7321 with a .070 or .074 and an Invader 7 in the bridge. Most people here are probably throwing up in their mouths reading that, but you know what? It sounded and felt great on that particular guitar. I have one 25.5 guitar now that that sounds and feels awful below A with a .068. Weird, huh?

Just experiment.


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## teamSKDM (Dec 20, 2020)

you could always straight trade for an equal rgd prestige of some kind. Id say find the guage thats comfortable for you and dont give up on your guitar unless it just cant intonate properly. if you can get it to intonate properly with a guage youre comfortable with than go ahead and keep it. however , If it cant intonate properly I think thats enough reason to try an alternative at least for when youre playing in those tunings.


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## Themistocles (Dec 20, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Appreciate the input. Yeah I paid $700 for it, pretty insane.


yeah you will be fine saving the money right now will help you get other things you want and just concentrate on playing for now. People get hung up on gear minutiae, especially when they start but putting in time and good feedback on your playing will help way more than sweating on scale length details.


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## landmvrks (Dec 21, 2020)

Think I've decided to sell it and get one of these instead: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RGIXL7BKF--ibanez-iron-label-rgixl7-black-flat

I can sell this prestige for at least $200 more than I paid, essentially meaning I'm only spending $699 on the RGIXL7, and I'll have a guitar that's actually made for low tunings with the 27" scale. I'll replace the pickups with some BKP Impulses and should be set, might even get an Evertune bridge with the current sale going on and replace the nut.


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## Robslalaina (Dec 22, 2020)

Hmm I don't know man. Down the line you may regret having sold the Prestige to get the Iron Label, even though guitars from that line have been very good lately. If you can play that 752 in your desired tuning and intonation is good, sound is good and only minor adjustments are required from you in terms of fretting and picking strength then I'd recommend sticking to that for a little while, even if that's just 2-3 more weeks.
Personally I'm one of those who aren't fond of mega thick strings. On a 25.5" scale guitar in B I find .54 a bit too loose. However, .60 and even .58 though easier to play hard and careless make the sound fuller in a bad way. I find there is less definition and percussiveness, like banging on a closet with open hands rather than a hammer, if that makes any sense. So .56 is the best trade-off for me and in B that's only 15.5 lbs of tension, which is more or less what you get with a .42 in E (15.8 lbs to be precise).


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## Bearitone (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Think I've decided to sell it and get one of these instead: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RGIXL7BKF--ibanez-iron-label-rgixl7-black-flat
> 
> I can sell this prestige for at least $200 more than I paid, essentially meaning I'm only spending $699 on the RGIXL7, and I'll have a guitar that's actually made for low tunings with the 27" scale. I'll replace the pickups with some BKP Impulses and should be set, might even get an Evertune bridge with the current sale going on and replace the nut.



Bro for all that just save more and get one of these:
https://www.solar-guitars.com/product/s1-6pb-27-poplar-burst-matte/

You’ll get stainless frets as well


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## Bearitone (Dec 22, 2020)

You’re going to spend at least that much trying to add stuff to a cheap guitar. Do not go that route.


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## 4x3 (Dec 22, 2020)

My only 7, which has been my main player since I got it, is 25.5 tuned to F#. I too was worried about it, but it's just fine. I'm running 013-056+080. I wouldn't recommend selling unless: you don't jive with the guitar, you want to use a lighter string set, or you can get a comparable guitar for less

[edit]
If you know what tension you're after, I recommend GHS's string tension paper to get an idea of the set you want. They cleanly layout how the tension was calculated and it's easy to read the tables. Pg 3 first paragraph (L) states they used 25.5 for the calculations

http://www.ghsrep.net/uploads/2/2/2/5/22258814/2020-ghs-elec-guitar-tension.pdf


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## bostjan (Dec 22, 2020)

ITT - No one: If tuning down ends up posing a problem, why not tune up to the point where it's no longer a problem?


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

bostjan said:


> ITT - No one: If tuning down ends up posing a problem, why not tune up to the point where it's no longer a problem?



Because I'm not writing original music, I'm just learning songs from my favorite bands who all happen to play in drop F - drop G#.


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> Bro for all that just save more and get one of these:
> https://www.solar-guitars.com/product/s1-6pb-27-poplar-burst-matte/
> 
> You’ll get stainless frets as well



I've never been a fan of Solar, really hate that fret inlay too. Any other recommendations if you don't like the Iron Label? Another I was looking at were the Schecter KM MK-III Artist, or waiting till I can snag a good deal on a used RGD so I at least have 26.5 scale. I can spend up to $1200 or so.


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## bostjan (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Because I'm not writing original music, I'm just learning songs from my favorite bands who all happen to play in drop F - drop G#.



Even easier. Just transpose the song you are learning into a convenient key.


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## Bearitone (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> I've never been a fan of Solar, really hate that fret inlay too. Any other recommendations if you don't like the Iron Label? Another I was looking at were the Schecter KM MK-III Artist, or waiting till I can snag a good deal on a used RGD so I at least have 26.5 scale. I can spend up to $1200 or so.


https://www.evertune.com/shop/guitars/ESP_LTD/M-7HT_Baritone_Black_Metal.php

There you go^^^

Comes ready to rock with an SD Black Winter too

Do not buy a cheap guitar and throw an ET in it. Buy a guitar with an ET or don’t buy one at all. Aftermarket ET install is about ~$600. Fuck that unless you are building something you want from the ground up and absolutely refuse to settle. An iron label just doesn’t seem worth it especially with their spotty quality reputation.


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> https://www.evertune.com/shop/guitars/ESP_LTD/M-7HT_Baritone_Black_Metal.php



That thing is actually pretty sweet. Scared I might miss the neck pickup at some point though, not really sure how much the bands I listen to use it. Probably bands like Erra do for solos, but I'm guessing outside of that it's pretty minimal? I feel like if this thing had a neck pickup it would be perfect. I already play a MH-1001 6 string.


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## j3ps3 (Dec 22, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Even easier. Just transpose the song you are learning into a convenient key.



I do this quite a lot, but playing against a chipmunk-version of a song I love doesn't exactly feel how it should


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## Scooter1969 (Dec 22, 2020)

Here ya go man...30"-27" scale. Fire the bass player. Agile guitars are actually damn good for the $$, I have a Legacy 727 Floyd Rose and a Septor 827. Love 'em!


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Scooter1969 said:


> Here ya go man...30"-27" scale. Fire the bass player. Agile guitars are actually damn good for the $$, I have a Legacy 727 Floyd Rose and a Septor 827. Love 'em!


I don't have the balls (or hand size) for this guitar lol.


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## bostjan (Dec 22, 2020)

j3ps3 said:


> I do this quite a lot, but playing against a chipmunk-version of a song I love doesn't exactly feel how it should



Meh, drop Ab isn't so extreme, and that'd get you a whole step up, which is also not extreme. 

Just seems like ss.o overcomplicating the shit out of a simple problem to solve, as usual.


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Meh, drop Ab isn't so extreme, and that'd get you a whole step up, which is also not extreme.
> 
> Just seems like ss.o overcomplicating the shit out of a simple problem to solve, as usual.


Honestly changing keys is not really a compromise I want to go with. Appreciate your input though.


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## Scooter1969 (Dec 22, 2020)

In all seriousness, I'd go with a 27" scale (or even 26.5"). The heavier string guage you put on a shorter scale guitar, the more it will sound "boomy" (as mentioned before). I use Labella 11/70s on my Agile 27", and the tension is perfect. I like the Dunlop Heavy Cores as well. Last thing you want is to buy a cool guitar, take it to a luthier, have them piss around with the nut and saddle...and it not play worth a shit. And No I'm not a salesman for Rondo Music (Agile), but anything I've ever bought from them has been top notch for the price. + Kurt has a great return policy. Just sayin"....Hey, Keith Merrow used to play one....


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## Scooter1969 (Dec 22, 2020)

Not telling you what to do man, but at LEAST 27" is the way to go to drop that low...


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## elkoki (Dec 22, 2020)

Don't sell your Prestige for an Ibanez Indonesian guitar... also consider learning different songs that don't require you to tune so low lol. The Prestige will be far better when it comes to quality.. keep it and save up some more money until you can get another longer scale guitar.... 

You could easily setup that Prestige for F#, it's a 7 string right? It would be very easy to setup with that sort of tuning.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Dec 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> gonna be the voice of reason...
> 
> honestly it's not that great of a deal. used prestiges are like 50 percent off. minimum.
> 
> That's a newer guitar so it's a pretty good deal. But at some point that guitar is gonna go for 500 dollars.


In the UK, a used Prestige in excellent condition goes for *MUCH* more than 50% of it's original RRP. A Prestige plastered with dings/chips/scratches will sell for about 50% - as long as there's no problem with playability. A couple of small dings and you're looking at 70% of RRP, unless you patiently keep an eye out for a good deal for months.

5+ years ago, it wasn't too difficult to find an excellent condition Prestige at about 60% of RRP, reasonable condition at 50% and beaten-up at 30-40%. Currently, it seems to be more like 80-90%, 70% and 50% respectively.

Recently, I've found better deals on 'new' Prestiges that have been hanging around unsold in a store for years than in the used market. Six months ago I bought a brand new 2008 RG2550Z (RRP £999 in 2008) and a brand new 2017 RG652FX (RRP in 2017) for £900 each. Equivalent 2019/2020 models would have cost me circa £1500 (new) and the cheapest I could find a used RG2550Z in good condition was £800. 

This price hike in the used market seems to correlate with a a big price hike in the new market. A new Prestige costs £1500-1800 now, compared to £900-1000 5 years ago. An increase in line with inflation would have meant a current price of only £1000-1100 would be roughly in line with inflation, so £1500-1800 is a huge jump - increasing demand for used. 90% of RRP seems like a relatively good deal when you consider that an actual new equivalent costs 150% of RRP (£900 vs. £1500).


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> In the UK, a used Prestige in excellent condition goes for *MUCH* more than 50% of it's original RRP. A Prestige plastered with dings/chips/scratches will sell for about 50% - as long as there's no problem with playability. A couple of small dings and you're looking at 70% of RRP, unless you patiently keep an eye out for a good deal for months.
> 
> 5+ years ago, it wasn't too difficult to find an excellent condition Prestige at about 60% of RRP, reasonable condition at 50% and beaten-up at 30-40%. Currently, it seems to be more like 80-90%, 70% and 50% respectively.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's just in the UK. Maybe people haven't been paying attention, but I can't find any good condition (8+/10) prestige (other than the one I got lucky with) for anywhere near 50% of new. It's more like 70%, so still around $1400.


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## Bearitone (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> That thing is actually pretty sweet. Scared I might miss the neck pickup at some point though, not really sure how much the bands I listen to use it. Probably bands like Erra do for solos, but I'm guessing outside of that it's pretty minimal? I feel like if this thing had a neck pickup it would be perfect. I already play a MH-1001 6 string.



Just get over the logo and get the Solar. You’ll get a neck pickup and SS frets.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Ugh, looks like I might be selling this thing then. Shame, great guitar for the money, but I'm going to be sitting here looking at it every day saying thinking a 26.5 would be better. Any 26.5 guitars that can be had second hand for around $1200 that are just as nice and build for low tunings? Don't really care about pickups, I can change them. Was considering a Schecter KM-7 Signature Artist, seems like a good deal and can find them under $1000 used... or potentially an Iron Label and replace the pickups?


Why don't you set it up in drop F# and see how it sounds / feels to you, before replacing it? Unless there's something you don't like about it (e.g. the strings feel to thick or the tone sounds too muddy), there is no need for longer scale length. 

Everyone has different string tension and tone preferences, which is why you're getting varying advice on scale length and string gauges in this thread. Tony Iommi used 8-32 gauge for E standard and 9-42 for Eb - most would consider that too light, but it's an integral part of his tone. The wide-ranging gauge recommendations you've been given here for F# are equivalent to using anything from 9-42 to 12-54 in E standard (comparable string tension).

Personally, I use 9-42 gauge for E standard and try to match the tension of this for lower tunings (9.5-44 Eb, 10-46 D standard, 11-49 C standard, 12-54 B standard). The approximate rule for this is to increase by one gauge for every full step down, but it's not an exact science - I find this consistently results with ideal tension for the high strings but sometimes the low strings are a bit floppy/buzzy (depends on the exact guitar and tuning). Sometimes raising the action very slightly is all that's needed (I have my action low by default, so raising it a hair isn't a problem). Sometimes I go for a light top/heavy bottom string set to increase the tension in the floppy low strings without unnecessarily increasing the tension of the high strings (e.g. 12-60 for B standard). Light top/heavy bottom sets are also perfect for drop tunings (e.g. I use 9-46 for drop D).

This is a very handy tool, which calculates string tension based on thickness, pitch and scale length: https://tension.stringjoy.com/  

[NB: The string gauges above are 6-string sets, not 7-string, but the thickest string required is the same regardless (i.e. a 7-string in B standard has an extra high E compared to a 6-string and both have a low B string of the same tension/thickness).]

I have the 6-string version of your guitar (RG652FX) tuned to B standard, for playing stuff like Bolt thrower, Carcass, Morbid Angel, Amon Amarth etc. The average high-gain bridge pickup would sound too muddy, but I swapped out the stock DiMarzio Tone Zone with a D-Activator (few passive pickups have such tight bass) - I had chosen my pickups before choosing the guitar, to match the guitar I use in D standard, so it wasn't primarily a matter of fixing the problem of a 25.5" scale. I'm very happy with this guitar, but if I played a lot of djent rhythm it would be less optimal (very different tone to old school death metal) - a longer scale length and/or thicker strings would be more suited.

If you are set on a longer scale, why not shop around for a used 7-string Prestige with 26.5" or 27" scale...and enjoy your RG752FX in the meantime? An 'RGD' has a 26.5" scale (i.e. RG with extra bevels and a hybrid scale length) and an 'RG XL' has a 27" scale (i.e. RG baritone). Current models to consider include RG2027XL and RGDR4327.
You may well not be keen on having a floating bridge, but an advantage of this would be that the metal locking nut will happily accommodate thicker string gauges without modification, whereas the plastic nut on fixed-bridge models would need its grooves filed (to be wider *but not deeper*) to accommodate thicker strings.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Dec 22, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> Just get over the logo and get the Solar. You’ll get a neck pickup and SS frets.


"You’ll get a neck pickup" - Do you mean middle pickup?

People tend to choose Ibanez for their specs and feel, not the logo (Gibson/Fender on the other hand...). They have the thinnest necks, with a unique flat D-shape, and a very flat fretboard radius. Personally, I exclusively play Ibanez not because they are "the best", but because I prefer their necks over any others and want the same feel/comfort when I switch between guitars. Even a Jackson neck feels thick to me, so a the thicker, rounder C-shaped Solar necks would not be for me - even though they look like awesome guitars.


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Why don't you set it up in drop F# and see how it sounds / feels to you, before replacing it? Unless there's something you don't like about it (e.g. the strings feel to thick or the tone sounds too muddy), there is no need for longer scale length.
> 
> Everyone has different string tension and tone preferences, which is why you're getting varying advice on scale length and string gauges in this thread. Tony Iommi used 8-32 gauge for E standard and 9-42 for Eb - most would consider that too light, but it's an integral part of his tone. The wide-ranging gauge recommendations you've been given here for F# are equivalent to using anything from 9-42 to 12-54 in E standard (comparable string tension).
> 
> ...



Appreciate the input. It's definitely super muddy right now. As you say, it could be because of pickups, or it could be a combination of that as well as the tension. I have it tuned to drop F right now and the strings are super loose, though I think the strings on there currently are from factory. I'm definitely wanting to stay away from a guitar with a tremolo and larger bridge like that, I find them uncomfortable personally and the trem is just an added hassle. That's part of the reason finding a decent, used Prestige is hard. No where near as many non-trem Prestiges out there.


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> Just get over the logo and get the Solar. You’ll get a neck pickup and SS frets.


It pretty much has the specs I want (minus the pickups), and at a decent price... but I just can't get over that logo, so damn ugly to my eyes, but I get others might like it. Wish I had $3500 to drop on a Caesar or Skervesen lol.


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## akinari (Dec 22, 2020)

Absolutely nothing wrong with this for drop F.

https://www.rondomusic.com/Agile_Epic_727_Flat_Black.html


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## Robslalaina (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Appreciate the input. It's definitely super muddy right now. As you say, it could be because of pickups, or it could be a combination of that as well as the tension. I have it tuned to drop F right now and the strings are super loose, though I think the strings on there currently are from factory. I'm definitely wanting to stay away from a guitar with a tremolo and larger bridge like that, I find them uncomfortable personally and the trem is just an added hassle. That's part of the reason finding a decent, used Prestige is hard. No where near as many non-trem Prestiges out there.


I'll chime in again but if it still has the factory 10-46+59 that's really not the ideal situation to decide whether or not it could work for you in Drop F.


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## landmvrks (Dec 22, 2020)

Robstonin said:


> I'll chime in again but if it still has the factory 10-46+59 that's really not the ideal situation to decide whether or not it could work for you in Drop F.



Yeah, honestly I bought it used so I'm not sure what it's rocking right now. I don't really want to buy a thick top string, file down the nut to accommodate it, then realize it still doesn't really work and have to sell it to some poor guy who doesn't need drop F.


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## Leon (Dec 22, 2020)

This right here.



Neon_Knight_ said:


> Tony Iommi used 8-32 gauge for E standard and 9-42 for Eb - most would consider that too light, but it's an integral part of his tone.



The godfather of heavy music ran something like a ~30's gauge for C standard. You'll be fine. It takes some adjustment... I've got a 24.75" scale guitar tuned to drop B, strung up with 10's. Once you get your hands accustomed to the lower tension, you'll be hard-pressed (lol) to go back!


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## Bearitone (Dec 22, 2020)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> "You’ll get a neck pickup" - Do you mean middle pickup?
> 
> People tend to choose Ibanez for their specs and feel, not the logo (Gibson/Fender on the other hand...). They have the thinnest necks, with a unique flat D-shape, and a very flat fretboard radius. Personally, I exclusively play Ibanez not because they are "the best", but because I prefer their necks over any others and want the same feel/comfort when I switch between guitars. Even a Jackson neck feels thick to me, so a the thicker, rounder C-shaped Solar necks would not be for me - even though they look like awesome guitars.



No, i mean neck pickup


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## elkoki (Dec 22, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Appreciate the input. It's definitely super muddy right now. As you say, it could be because of pickups, or it could be a combination of that as well as the tension. I have it tuned to drop F right now and the strings are super loose, though I think the strings on there currently are from factory. I'm definitely wanting to stay away from a guitar with a tremolo and larger bridge like that, I find them uncomfortable personally and the trem is just an added hassle. That's part of the reason finding a decent, used Prestige is hard. No where near as many non-trem Prestiges out there.



Try swapping the strings first before you resort to selling it. For all you know you could have 9s . The stock nut should be able to fit 62s , if those gauges aren't thick enough just have the nut slots widened.. it wouldn't be a big deal if you decided to sell it. Just let the buyers know the nut was modded, they can easily swap it for a new one... 

A guitar in drop F will never not be sort of muddy ?


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## Neon_Knight_ (Dec 23, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Yeah, honestly I bought it used so I'm not sure what it's rocking right now. I don't really want to buy a thick top string, file down the nut to accommodate it, then realize it still doesn't really work and have to sell it to some poor guy who doesn't need drop F.


It will have left the factory with 10-46+59 (default for a fixed bridge with 2.5" scale). Assuming it was tuned to BEADGBE when you bought it, the strings are unlikely to be heavier than 10-59. To match this tension in drop F#, I would try 12-54+80 (standard set) or 12-60+85 (light top/heavy bottom). I don't think you can buy a 7-string set that heavy, so you probably need to buy a 6-string set + a single thick string.

Make sure you play around with your amp settings to - whatever you were using for this guitar in BEADGBE (or another guitar in drop F#) will need to be tweaked. I don't have any experience with PAF 7 so can't comment on how suitable they are for drop F#, but based on the 6-string version I doubt its the best choice for such a low tuning - the low end is possibly a bit too warm.


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## robski92 (Dec 23, 2020)

> I don't think you can buy a 7-string set that heavy, so you probably need to buy a 6-string set + a single thick string.



He could use the D'Addario 9-80 8 string set and drop the 9. That's 12-60+80.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Dec 30, 2020)

robski92 said:


> He could use the D'Addario 9-80 8 string set and drop the 9. That's 12-60+80.


True. I'm not sure which would be cheaper (6 string set +1 or 8 string set). Likely to get more choice of gauges by going down the 6+ 1 route.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Dec 30, 2020)

landmvrks said:


> Yeah, honestly I bought it used so I'm not sure what it's rocking right now. I don't really want to buy a thick top string, file down the nut to accommodate it, then realize it still doesn't really work and have to sell it to some poor guy who doesn't need drop F.


Made a decision?


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## Bearitone (Dec 30, 2020)

If you really, reeaallly, want drop F I say get the right tool for the job. 

Go watch The Bunn on YouTube for great information on baritones


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## Shoeless_jose (Dec 31, 2020)

Get this /thread
https://www.espguitars.com/products/21827-aw-7-baritone


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## landmvrks (Jan 3, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Made a decision?


Yeah, I'm going to sell it and get a 26.5/27 inch scale. I'm still undecided on what guitar I'm going to get though.



Bearitone said:


> If you really, reeaallly, want drop F I say get the right tool for the job.
> 
> Go watch The Bunn on YouTube for great information on baritones



Will check this out, thanks.


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## landmvrks (Jan 3, 2021)

Dineley said:


> Get this /thread
> https://www.espguitars.com/products/21827-aw-7-baritone



Not bad, really hate that headstock though...


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