# Substitute Chords



## LeTurismo (Dec 11, 2011)

Hello there,

i need help, i'm really struggling with finding substitute chords for:

E7 and Gm7

Can anyone tell me what chords can it be and how he did it ? Substitutes alone can be sufficient too, i'll take it by logic then.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 11, 2011)

Can you give some context?

Without knowing anything else, with E7 you could try a tritone substitution. E7 = E G# B D, G# and B is a tritone. So what you could do is take a chord like A#7, A# D F G# ( or A# C## E# G#, if you prefer) and use it instead. Not sure about the minor chord though,

Gm7 = G Bb D F, no tritone, as it is a minor 7th chord, only dominant 7th chords have tritones (with respect to 7th chords only). D augmented might do it, D F A#, but I can't tell you for sure, it also isn't very far from the other chord, just omitted a note. It might give a different flavour/mood. Bb7 might also work (Bb D F Ab), once again it is not a far stretch though, if no one else does anything different it could easily sound like G b9 is happening.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 11, 2011)

Edit:  ... sorta.



LeTurismo said:


> Hello there,
> 
> i need help, i'm really struggling with finding substitute chords for:
> 
> ...



First things first: How who did what? And what's the context for the substitution?

Generally, to find a substitution, you go to the chord whose root is a diatonic third away from the chord you're trying to substitute. Assuming that E7 is functioning as V7 in the key of A major, we would proceed to the chord a diatonic third above it, which is G#ø7. If it were V7 in A minor, then the chord a diatonic third above E is G#°7. If you go down a third, however, then you don't get an effective dominant substitute: C#m7 and C&#8710; are not dominant functions in those keys, and therefore don't work as substitutes for the dominant chord. Gm7 could really be anything, so I can't help you with that unless you can describe it a little more. Here's a general pattern; in the first column is the diatonic function, and the second column contains the typical diatonic substitutions.


```
I - iii, vi
ii - IV, vi
iii
IV - ii, vi
V - vii°, ii (maybe)
vi
vii° - V
```


```
i - III, VI
ii° - iv, VI
III
iv - ii°, VI
V - vii°
vii° - V
```
Dominant functions are unique in that they also accept other forms of substitutions rather readily. I speak here of the tritone substitution, wherein the root of the substituted chord is a tritone away from the root of the dominant chord. Thus, you might see something like Gm-G&#9837;7-F. It's commonly notated as ii-bII7-I, although I prefer ii-TTsub-I, as it indicates what's actually going on in the progression.

Depending on the sequence, you can also drop secondary functions as substitutions. Take vi ii V I, as an example. And let's do it in E&#9837;:

C&#8710;-Fm7-B&#9837;7-E&#9837;&#8710;

We'll swap the first chord in there for a secondary dominant.

C7-Fm7-B&#9837;7-E&#9837;&#8710;

That works because the C7 is resolving into the Fm. As a functional progression, this now looks like V7/ii ii V I. Similarly, you could use a secondary diminished chord.

E°7-Fm7-B&#9837;7-E&#9837;&#8710;, or vii°7/ii ii V7 I

And then there are pre-dominant functions, such as the Neapolitan chord and the augmented sixth chords.
We'll start with vi ii V I again, this time in G.

Em-Am-D7-G

And we'll stick a Neapolitan chord in there. This is vi ii N V I.

Em-Am-A&#9837;-D7-G

Neapolitan chords are essentially a &#9837;II. You'll notice that it doesn't function the same way as the tritone sub that I had above, hence why I don't like the &#9837;II notation.

And here is an augmented sixth scenario:

Em-Am-E&#9837;7-D7-G

This is vi ii Ger+6 V I, or maybe just vi ii +6 V I. Pop notation is vi ii &#9837;VI V I, but I don't like that for similar reasons to the N/TTsub/&#9837;II thing. An augmented sixth chord is basically any chord containing a minor seventh that resolves to a chord a half step lower. Well, technically, it's defined by the expansion of an augmented sixth interval to a perfect octave, so it's really a contrapuntal procedure, but you won't care if I tell you that.

There are also secondary augmented sixth chords. And I'm not going to explain linear functions, mediant relationships, and other processes at the moment. There are so many options, and it really depends on the shape of your progression. Use your ear, and all that mystical hogwash.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 11, 2011)

^^ the above illustrates the difference between student and master


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## PollutedSanctum (Dec 15, 2011)

Another interesting concept - one Bartok used. Lendvai's axis.http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/20432_213094389301_213079284301_3114199_1038070_n.jpg Has something to do with the overtone series, but a chord can be substituted for any chord a m3, TT, or M6th up or down. So for example a Gm7 can be subbed for C#, E, and Bb. 

Try this to demonstrate.

Take this chord progression Cm, Fm, GM, Cm. Typical I-IV-V-I.

Replace F with Ab, (a m3 up), and G, with E, (a m3 down).

You get Cm, Abm, EM, Cm - One VERY evil sounding chord progression. It'd be hard to explain with traditional diatonicism why it sounds good and seems to make sense to the ear. But with Lendvai's axis, it is easily explainable. The axis explains away Tritone subs, and Aug6 chords at one fell swoop. Have fun!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 15, 2011)

Along the same lines: Coltrane changes, Neo-Riemannian harmonic theory, and film music clichés. All of these obscure non-diatonic chord changes can be related to the interval of the third.

To explain PollutedSanctum's post a little more, Lendvai's axis explains harmonic relationships by three notes that are all a major third apart from each other (let's use A, C#, and E#) and notices that the remaining tones of the chromatic scale are tangentially linked to those tones by a series of minor thirds:

A - C E&#9837; G&#9837;
C# - E G B&#9837;
E# - G# B D

You'll notice that when grouped together in their respective minor-third collections, you end up with the contents of a diminished seventh chord in three unique transpositions. Kind of a vertical way of thinking, and not a method I would recommend for standard chord substitution, but it's out there if it interests you.

Man, I'm trying to avoid writing a treatise on chromatic voice leading so badly right now. I was up all night simultaneously composing two pieces for my final projects and was grinding away at them to the very moment they were due. I need to get some fucking sleep.


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## Ethn Hayabusa (Dec 15, 2011)

Before trying any advanced substitutions, I would recommend trying various voicings of the original chords (change the order of the intervals of the chord), or maybe add extensions; Gm9 or Gm11 instead of Gm7, or E9, E11, E13 or E7alt instead of E7. 

Also, inversions can be incredibly effective at changing the impact of a chord progression. In order to help you better, we would probably need more information. What is the melody doing? What is the bassist doing?


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## Trespass (Dec 15, 2011)

Just to overload you with information further, is this in a jazz/rock/jazz-rock improvisation context, or are you composing...? What's the full progression?

If it's a jazz thing and you're looking at adding variety without dramatic reharmonization, you can look at revoicing the chords quartally and and/or quintally.

Gm7 - G C F, A D G, Bb E A, etc. will work with various degrees of tension. Obviously you'll be adding extensions with this approach, but they'll work fine (assuming they don't get in the way of the melody. Even then, it might be okay - temporary tension).

Otherwise, you could also play upper structure triads to pull out specific sounds, both extensions and alterations - it's a fairly easy method to reharm. Upper structures usually sound best in second inversion.

Gm7 - 
F Bb D m7 sound
A D F# mmaj9 sound

Experiment with different triads over the Gm bass. There are tons of possible combinations.

You can also imply or superimpose a ii-V motion over any chord.


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## celticelk (Dec 15, 2011)

I approve EVERYTHING in this thread. You guys are awesome.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't think the OP really cares, on the other hand.


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## Kaos-G (Dec 16, 2011)

I have a quite noob question. It is also a bit off topic.... what the following symbols stand for when applied to a chord? &#8710; ° ø

Sorry again for the off topic!


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## celticelk (Dec 16, 2011)

^^^^^ Respectively: major 7th, diminished, and "half-diminished" or m7b5.


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## Kaos-G (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 17, 2011)

Kaos-G said:


> I have a quite noob question. It is also a bit off topic.... what the following symbols stand for when applied to a chord? &#8710; ° ø
> 
> Sorry again for the off topic!



To elaborate chord symbol suffixes a little more, here are all of them:

Nothing - Major triad (also M, but that's redundant notation)
m - Minor tirad (you'll also see mi, min, or -)
° - Diminished triad (also d or dim)
+ - Augmented triad (also aug, and sometimes you'll see M#5, but I don't like that notation)
&#8710; - Major seventh chord (also maj7, M7)
7 - Dominant seventh chord (also Mm7)
m7 - Minor seventh chord (also min7, mi7, -7)
ø7 - Half-diminished seventh chord, or minor-seven-flat-five (also m7&#9837;5)
°7 - Fully-diminished seventh chord (also dim7 or d7)
m&#8710; - Minor-major seventh chord, the "James Bond chord" (also mM7)


Let's go through all of these on E&#9837;.


E&#9837;= a major triad, E&#9837; G B&#9837;
E&#9837;m = a minor triad, E&#9837; G&#9837; B&#9837;
E&#9837;° = a diminished triad, E&#9837; G&#9837; B&#119083;
E&#9837;+ = an augmented triad, E&#9837; G B
E&#9837;&#8710; = a major-seventh chord, E&#9837; G B&#9837; D (major triad+major seventh)
E&#9837;7 = a dominant-seventh chord, E&#9837; G B&#9837; D&#9837; (major triad+minor seventh)
E&#9837;m7 = a minor-seventh chord, E&#9837; G&#9837; B&#9837; D&#9837; (minor triad+minor seventh)
E&#9837;ø7 = a half-diminished seventh chord, E&#9837; G&#9837; B&#119083; D&#9837; (diminished triad+minor seventh)
E&#9837;°7 = a fully diminished seventh chord, E&#9837; G&#9837; B&#119083; D&#119083; (diminished triad+diminished seventh)
E&#9837;m&#8710; = a minor/major-seventh chord, E&#9837; G&#9837; B&#9837; D (minor triad+major seventh)


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## Kaos-G (Dec 17, 2011)

Awesome! Thanks for the list mate


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## SirMyghin (Dec 17, 2011)

On a different note what are all the network pad codes for those symbols SW? Also your double flat doesn't register on my end.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 18, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> On a different note what are all the network pad codes for those symbols SW?



Not sure. I'm on a Mac, and I get them from the special characters window.



> Also your double flat doesn't register on my end.


Thanks for the heads up.


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## Explorer (Dec 18, 2011)

SW, I like that you didn't cop out like Ted Greene did in _Chord Chemistry_ and whatever was the second book of that (_Modern Chord Progressions_?). When explaining, he would just list "R b3 5 b7 etc."

You went right for the highly intuitive and not at all esoteric key of Eb. 

I'm sure Ted is looking at this from the Great Beyond and thinking, I made it too easy for these chumps...!

*laugh*

BTW, everyone who either contributed knowledge or became a constructive part of the discussion got rep. Since I can only give out rep once to each person during a certain time period, I gave out likes as well to all posts which fell into this area.

Kaos-G, I'm singling you out for special mention, as often the more pedantic members will write up responses and be met with silence. You asked a question, and then let the respondent know that you appreciated it. I repped you for that alone, and I'm hopeful that others do so as well. 

Repping requires writing something, and isn't necessarily as easy as hitting the Like button, but people like you are worth the time invested in doing both. Thanks for making SS.org a better place.


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## Kaos-G (Dec 18, 2011)

Explorer said:


> SW, I like that you didn't cop out like Ted Greene did in _Chord Chemistry_ and whatever was the second book of that (_Modern Chord Progressions_?). When explaining, he would just list "R b3 5 b7 etc."
> 
> You went right for the highly intuitive and not at all esoteric key of Eb.
> 
> ...



Haha! You make me blush  
But seriously, this forum is an extremely valuable source of information. The least one can do is to thank those members who are taking their time to explain and spread their knowledge. I think it's thanks to them if SS.org is the awesome community it is


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 18, 2011)

That's what I like about Explorer: the man appreciates integrity.  Thanks for the esteem boost!


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## Aevolve (Dec 18, 2011)

I feel like I'd need a Bachelors degree to hold a conversation with SchecterWhore.


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## bandinaboy (Dec 18, 2011)

I see the Tri-tone substitution has not been mentioned yet. And as i happen to much prefer any of schectorwhores responses, this method was the only method taught in my school. 

Any Dominant chord can be substituted by a dominant chord a tri-tone away. so E7 can be substituted with Bb7. The V7 in key of A minor can be subbed with the bII7 (Bb7)

And yes it works, fine too. but i like schectorwhores answers better, just throwing it out because it is a possibility and it has not been mentioned.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 19, 2011)

Both SirMyghin (or MastaKyle, if you will) and I have mentioned tritone subs, actually. Still, good to know that people know of these things.



PeachesMcKenzie said:


> I feel like I'd need a Bachelors degree to hold a conversation with SchecterWhore.



I hope not, I try to be understood as clearly as I can manage. Writing with me is a different story, though - I'm glad that I finally landed a band with people that know what polytonality is.


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