# Curious case of Jeff Loomis: Does he have a day-job other than playing music?



## gauravjeet (Jul 24, 2014)

My guess is he earns money by doing clinics, guitar classes and touring.


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## no_dice (Jul 24, 2014)

That's a bit of an odd question to start a thread for. I doubt even a musician at his level (of popularity/success, not talking skill) makes enough to live on just from the music he makes, so of course he'd have to supplement it somehow. 

It definitely doesn't help that his gear got stolen on tour not too long ago, either.


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## Orzech (Jul 24, 2014)

I don't agree. I think by doing clinics, advertising, profits from ads on media like youtube and of course benefits from his music he makes more than enough, but thats just a guess.


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## DLG (Jul 24, 2014)

He used to work at a restaurant before nevermore was able to pay the bills, but I think he lives off music now. 

he's definitely not ballin, but I'm sure he does ok.


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## no_dice (Jul 24, 2014)

Orzech said:


> I don't agree. I think by doing clinics, advertising, profits from ads on media like youtube and of course benefits from his music he makes more than enough, but thats just a guess.



Well, I definitely hope for him to be successful, I guess I'm just not very optimistic about the viability of music to pay the bills.


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## Nats (Jul 24, 2014)

I actually think it's a great topic. Not just for Loomis but a lot of everyone's collective favorites. I'm curious what some musicians do to supplement their music income, if they do at all. And I don't just mean having their parents support them like some musicians do....


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## ZeroS1gnol (Jul 24, 2014)

A friend of a friend, that works for century media told that even some of their top billing acts don't earn a lot of money. Basically an income that would be considered under or around the minumum wage level over here in the Netherlands, but only if they play like 250 times a year.

This always makes me wonder how they finance their boutique guitars and amps, or rent lol.

On the other hand, when on the road always, you don't need much if food and perhaps stay is taken care of (in the budget). It wouldnt be the live Id like to live though.


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## MoshJosh (Jul 24, 2014)

I don't know if he does but I could see him making good money giving lessons, though some might consider that a job.


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## fps (Jul 24, 2014)

Pretty sure Loomis was still working another job until Enemies Of Reality came out. I would imagine by now he is able to make a living, but only by combining his music and endorsements with clinics and lessons. I hope so, he's such a talented player and deserves it for his work in Nevermore alone for me.


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## Randy (Jul 24, 2014)

No mention of the fact he's obviously collecting money from the sales of his sig?


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 24, 2014)

I'm sure he gets paid to put on clinics and stuff sometimes too...


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## TheShreddinHand (Jul 24, 2014)

There was a recent interview with Keith and Jeff on the Conquering Dystopia tour and Keith talks about how he was able to quit his day job back a couple years ago and focus solely on music now. So I'm sure Jeff is able to as well at this point, but I do remember that all the Nevermore guys had day jobs in the earlier years.

Interesting fact, Jeff also mentioned in the interview that he doesn't have a car....so no auto expenses is a big help for sure!


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 24, 2014)

Guitar lessons.
Loads of talented musicians give guitar lessons.
Here in Italy, which is an expensive place compared to 75% of Europe and United States, with 4 hours of lessons a day you can live very well.


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## Thorerges (Jul 24, 2014)

I took lessons with Christian Muenzner and for him that was his main source of income. He taught students all the time. If you do the math:

$40*number of students (each lesson is an hour, give or take 5 students a day) * 5 days = $800 from lessons. *4 = $3200 a month * 12 == LOL I might be overestimating this by a lot.

+

Part time instructor, maybe $10000 a year at the most. 

+

Obscura touring/record sales = $5000? I don't know much about this figure. 

But I am sure Muenzner makes a lot more than minimum wage, maybe $10k over I think? I estimated Muenzner to make about 35000 a year at least. Which is not enough to buy a house, but you can live ok with that.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 24, 2014)

The estimate for guitar lesson is good, more or less, just I would lower the number of students from 5 to 3 daily and have a more average and probably right figure.

For what concerns profit from records, in 2000 my band got the value of &#8364; 0,90 for each copy sold of our record for the first 1000 units, then &#8364; 1,20 for each copy and it was a very bad contract.
That had to be divided for the members of the band, since we were 5, the figure was around &#8364; 0,24 per record sold per member.
We were a band at their first records and stuff, but I don't think the share can go much higher in metal, maybe just double.

The exact data I could share is that in the first 2 years Immortal's "At The Heart Of The Winter" sold 70000 copies and Blind Guardian's "Imaginations From The Other Side" sold 350000 copies.

Then I can say that my friend that is a pro-cellist and give lessons for &#8364; 60,00 each hour, earns no more than &#8364; 200,00 for a performance, and often more dates at the same venue get paid less than stand-alone dates, example, 2 concerts= &#8364; 350,00.
Again, a pro who sometimes plays with an Oscar Awarded composer or big Italian pop artists.

That's the best raw data I can share.
Obviously you must consider different times, different status and different genre.
Hope people will find it useful.


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## xzyryabx (Jul 24, 2014)

Recently got on a Darkthrone kick and was watching/reading tons of interviews w/ Fenriz (who after Lemmy is my favorite metal guy!) and he mentioned that he has always had a full-time day job (in the postal industry!). Not really surprising given BMs and Darkthrones popularity (and the fact they never play live), but I am sure many of these guys need to supplement their income with at least part-time jobs outside of music.


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## Necropitated (Jul 24, 2014)

Thorerges said:


> I took lessons with Christian Muenzner and for him that was his main source of income. He taught students all the time. If you do the math:
> 
> $40*number of students (each lesson is an hour, give or take 5 students a day) * 5 days = $800 from lessons. *4 = $3200 a month * 12 == LOL I might be overestimating this by a lot.
> 
> ...



You forgot taxes and social security/health insurance. That's about 35 % of your income. Maybe more if you're self-employed. Also, if you really earn 35000. that's above average. That's a good living here in Germany.


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## tedtan (Jul 24, 2014)

Nats said:


> I actually think it's a great topic. Not just for Loomis but a lot of everyone's collective favorites. I'm curious what some musicians do to supplement their music income, if they do at all. And I don't just mean having their parents support them like some musicians do....



I know a lot of them (Rusty Cooley comes to mind) still teach to supplement the income they make from their music.

And 10, maybe 15, years back in a Guitar World interview with Meshugga they talked about how they made enough money to cover the costs of touring, but had to live on the Swedish welfare system when not on tour.

And I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that even Mikael Ackerfeldt is only able to do music full time at this point because his wife earns a six figure income. I don't know how true it is (after all, its just a rumor), but with the increase in touring costs since the 90's and the decrease in album sales and income from live shows, its certainly not unrealistic, even if untrue.


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## Given To Fly (Jul 24, 2014)

I do not consider teaching lessons/masterclasses/workshops/etc. as being a day job, its just one of the facets of being a musician. Teaching high school algebra would be an entirely different thing though.


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## Necropitated (Jul 24, 2014)

tedtan said:


> I know a lot of them (Rusty Cooley comes to mind) still teach to supplement the income they make from their music.
> 
> And 10, maybe 15, years back in a Guitar World interview with Meshugga they talked about how they made enough money to cover the costs of touring, but had to live on the Swedish welfare system when not on tour.
> 
> And I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that even Mikael Ackerfeldt is only able to do music full time at this point because his wife earns a six figure income. I don't know how true it is (after all, its just a rumor), but with the increase in touring costs since the 90's and the decrease in album sales and income from live shows, its certainly not unrealistic, even if untrue.



I'm pretty sure that's just a rumor considering how big Opeth are nowadays. I can imagine him earning a six figure income. I mean Alexi Laiho has an estimated net worth of 6 million. So it's still possible to become "rich" playing metal.

Edit: Oh, and I read in an interview with Mikael that he was able to make a living after Blackwater Park was released and according to Wiki, Opeth sold over 1,5 million albums so, they are far from being underground metal lol.


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## Thorerges (Jul 24, 2014)

tedtan said:


> I know a lot of them (Rusty Cooley comes to mind) still teach to supplement the income they make from their music.
> 
> And 10, maybe 15, years back in a Guitar World interview with Meshugga they talked about how they made enough money to cover the costs of touring, but had to live on the Swedish welfare system when not on tour.
> 
> And I've heard unsubstantiated rumors that even Mikael Ackerfeldt is only able to do music full time at this point because his wife earns a six figure income. I don't know how true it is (after all, its just a rumor), but with the increase in touring costs since the 90's and the decrease in album sales and income from live shows, its certainly not unrealistic, even if untrue.



Opeth make a very decent amount of money. They've been around for a while, are not pure death metal and have a popular sound. They're not rich, but I think they do good enough for themselves.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Jul 24, 2014)

Necropitated said:


> I mean Alexi Laiho has an estimated net worth of 6 million.



source?


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jul 24, 2014)

The thing to take away from this is : Don't get into music for the money.  At least metal music.


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## technomancer (Jul 24, 2014)

TheShreddinHand said:


> There was a recent interview with Keith and Jeff on the Conquering Dystopia tour and Keith talks about how he was able to quit his day job back a couple years ago and focus solely on music now. So I'm sure Jeff is able to as well at this point, but I do remember that all the Nevermore guys had day jobs in the earlier years.
> 
> Interesting fact, Jeff also mentioned in the interview that he doesn't have a car....so no auto expenses is a big help for sure!



So Keith's job at Seymour Duncan doesn't count?


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## source field (Jul 25, 2014)

Guthrie Govan: If you actually want to play guitar for a living, you need to open your ears to every kind of music out there and become as versatile as possible."


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## Kwirk (Jul 25, 2014)

Relevant:


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## mniel8195 (Jul 25, 2014)

i live in Seattle and i have spotted Jeff at costco as well as fred meyer...just saying. I also saw Warrel Dane at the rob zombie remake of Halloween at the oak tree theater.


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## coreysMonster (Jul 25, 2014)

TheShreddinHand said:


> There was a recent interview with Keith and Jeff on the Conquering Dystopia tour and *Keith talks about how he was able to quit his day job back a couple years ago *and focus solely on music now. So I'm sure Jeff is able to as well at this point, but I do remember that all the Nevermore guys had day jobs in the earlier years.
> 
> Interesting fact, Jeff also mentioned in the interview that he doesn't have a car....so no auto expenses is a big help for sure!


Really? That's super awesome to hear. I interviewed Keith back when he was still doing it as a thing on the side, so cool to hear he's making it professionally now!


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## Orzech (Jul 25, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Here in Italy, which is an expensive place compared to 75% of Europe and United States, with 4 hours of lessons a day you can live very well.



This is also the case for Poland and for most of Europe I think.
Here when I gave 20-25 lessons per week I was able to earn the average salary.


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## frahmans (Jul 25, 2014)

Even Nuno Bettencourt is playing for Rihanna, right  

There's the money aspect vs 'ego' aspect of staying metal.


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## alchemyst (Jul 25, 2014)

xzyryabx said:


> Recently got on a Darkthrone kick and was watching/reading tons of interviews w/ Fenriz (who after Lemmy is my favorite metal guy!) and he mentioned that he has always had a full-time day job (in the postal industry!). Not really surprising given BMs and Darkthrones popularity (and the fact they never play live), but I am sure many of these guys need to supplement their income with at least part-time jobs outside of music.



Afaik from two different interviews: Fenriz earns enoght from music that he could quit his job but doesn`t want to because it would change his relationship to/view on music. (sorry for the bad english)


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## sly (Jul 25, 2014)

Jeff must earn a lot of money, when you see the size of it's wallet : 







By the way, I read an interview of Angela Gossow where she said that she earned an average of 1200&#8364; per months, knowing that she was singing and doing the management.


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## Lakortha (Jul 25, 2014)

Puts it more into a state of realism doesn't it. I would imagine that guitar lessons and clinics (and the likes) offer a more stable source of income. I know my guitar teacher has played on albums with varying degrees of success and still plays live, but I think it's his teaching side that pays the bills and feeds the kids.


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## Don Vito (Jul 25, 2014)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> source?


I'm not saying 6 million is accurate, but he has 2 homes and a few nice cars. They also have their own studio/complex, but I'm not sure how much of that is from his pocket.


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## Necropitated (Jul 25, 2014)

Hm, can't find the post I got it from, which was Metalsucks. They posted the net worth of famous "real" metal musicians. I thought 6 million is a lot too, but his career started really early, they are famous worldwide and then his signature deal and probably other deals. 6 million may be too much but I think what he earned over the years is a 7 figure.

About Keith, I don't think he said he was making a living off music. I mean, he's not touring, except now with Conquering and he's not really selling cd's. He got the job at Seymour Duncan and that gear testing. One could argue if that counts as making a living as a musician. I know he was able to quit his job as a jacuzzi builder, but maybe because of that Seymour Duncan job.

And Arch Enemy, it's hard to estimate but they are rather huge in europe and you get higher guarantees here than in the USA. Also, I read in an interview that Michael Amott was vacationing in Mexico last year (?) for 4 weeks which is impossible with 1200 a month lol. I'm sure Angela made 1200 euro when she joined the band, or the first years.

EDIT: For general reference: Randy Blythe makes 200.000 a year, so that puts it into perspective. They are not Rockstar huge, but a big metal band. So like I said, it's still possible to get rich, and I consider 200.000 a year rich.
EDIT 2: And Mark Holcomb said that he is now able to make a living off Periphery.
EDIT 3: Aaaand Danny Tunker of Aborted told me that he's able to make a living off Aborted even without teaching. I asked him because he was the first guy in a "big" band I was able to talk to. And everyone before that, I mean everyone, told me it's impossible to make money off metal music. It's maybe impossible for your average metal band but it is possible.


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## DLG (Jul 25, 2014)

"living off music" is a pretty relative idea too. 

Do you make enough money to own property and raise a family? Or do you consider paying rent in a one-bedroom apartment and only having to take care of you and your own bills "living off music?"

that's why you'll see a lot of people leaving bands when they start having kids, because the idea of "living off music" changes completely.


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## Nats (Jul 25, 2014)

Sugar mommas are where it's at.


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## protest (Jul 25, 2014)

technomancer said:


> So Keith's job at Seymour Duncan doesn't count?





That's the first thing I thought. I'm sure Keith doesn't consider it a "day job" because it's working for Seymour Duncan, but it's still a job. I had no idea he worked for them until I sent an email about a wiring diagram and he responded lol.


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## metaldoggie (Jul 25, 2014)

Don Vito said:


> I'm not saying 6 million is accurate, but he has 2 homes and a few nice cars. They also have their own studio/complex, but I'm not sure how much of that is from his pocket.



Who knows how accurate this website is but it's the right amount.

Alexi Laiho Net Worth | Celebrity Net Worth


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## Zalbu (Jul 25, 2014)

I personally think it's a very interesting question to think about what a lot of my favorite musicians have to do to pay the bills and how they make it work with the schedule that semi-popular metal bands have. Producing seems to be getting more and more popular, at least for members in modern metal bands.


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## broj15 (Jul 25, 2014)

Don Vito said:


> I'm not saying 6 million is accurate, but he has 2 homes and a few nice cars. They also have their own studio/complex, but I'm not sure how much of that is from his pocket.



not exactly sure how whoever came up with that figure calculated wealth, but I think it would be important to note weather that includes assets or not. I'd guess it probably does.


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## crankyrayhanky (Jul 25, 2014)

Linkin Park didn't make squat during their first couple of CDs, which had numerous hits/airplay/videos. That million dollar contract gets widdled down- the bill includes studio time, that champagne bottle you opened when you signed the contract, bill for every time the song was played on the radio, etc. They finally cashed in, but in the beginning it all goes to the big corporations. 
Check out the DJ Jazzy Jeff video where he receives a Grammy, gets in his limo and cries because he is dead broke. 
^Keep in mind this is all when people actually bought CDs/tapes. Get a backup plan people or be prepared to live in squalor


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## technomancer (Jul 25, 2014)

protest said:


> That's the first thing I thought. I'm sure Keith doesn't consider it a "day job" because it's working for Seymour Duncan, but it's still a job. I had no idea he worked for them until I sent an email about a wiring diagram and he responded lol.



Trust me, working tech support, even for a music gear company, is still a job


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## Nats (Jul 25, 2014)

crankyrayhanky said:


> Linkin Park didn't make squat during their first couple of CDs, which had numerous hits/airplay/videos. That million dollar contract gets widdled down- the bill includes studio time, that champagne bottle you opened when you signed the contract, bill for every time the song was played on the radio, etc. They finally cashed in, but in the beginning it all goes to the big corporations.
> Check out the DJ Jazzy Jeff video where he receives a Grammy, gets in his limo and cries because he is dead broke.
> ^Keep in mind this is all when people actually bought CDs/tapes. Get a backup plan people or be prepared to live in squalor



I'm still finding it really hard to believe the children of bodom guy is worth 6 mil.

edit: I'm the first to admit I don't like that band so I know nothing about what he does to be worth 6 mil, but I'm also wondering after seeing that some artists barely getting by while giving lessons and Randy Lamb of God making 200k/yr that there's really no middle ground here. But again, I don't follow band's finances and just assume everyone that isn't Justin Bieber is poor.


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## hairychris (Jul 25, 2014)

I only know of one guy who has managed to make a reasonable living from music. It took >10 years to get there, a shitload of luck, playing >200 shows a year, very good relationship & deal with record co., publishing, hitting UK top 30 for last album, yadda yadda. He works like a bastard, and spent 4 years living on floors on the way up.

Everyone that I know who plays in metal bands, even if they shift 20,000 units per album, has another job.

Unless you can tour constantly or sell a lot of units you won't make much money directly. Not in the UK.

EDIT: There are other ways of making money as a musician. Session players and, funnily enough, good tribute or cover acts.


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## molsoncanadian (Jul 25, 2014)

I seem to remember a facebook post on merrow's page regarding gear reviews he was doing. He said something to the extent of being "commisioned" (paid) to do gear video's, and he was cranking them out for a while. While I don't think that would be a huge income, it would probably be supplemental to say the least.

Marketing is a pretty big deal in this regard, get someone to slap their name on your instrument, and you generate sales as a result. Sorry to nitpick bulb, but IMO he shamelessly plugs every post with BKP Juggs, to the point where I cant stop laughing.

"Recorded a new tone on my blackmachine, now with BKP Juggs"

"New PRS, with BKP Juggs."

"New album, recorded with blackmachine and BKP Juggs."

I know it might not be directly related to loomis, albeit he has a sig, but commision from those sales, must be worth noting. 

Im just happy that musicians are finding alternative ways to help support their career's


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## tedtan (Jul 25, 2014)

You noticed that, too molsoncanadian? The last NGD thread I saw from him was for a strat where he stated that he would be changing the pickups out for BKPs. I mentioned that it was funny that all the djent guys would replace the pickups with BKPs immediately upon getting a new axe and he spent several posts trying to convince me to try BKPs. And I wasn't even knocking them, just pointing out the cliché. 

I don't have an inherent problem with people pimping gear, but at least be transparent about it.


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## gigawhat (Jul 25, 2014)

Necropitated said:


> I read in an interview that Michael Amott was vacationing in Mexico last year (?) for 4 weeks which is impossible with 1200 a month lol.



For the record, depending on WHERE in Mexico, i.e. anywhere but Cancun and Acapulco or around Mexico City, $1200 would make you a king for a month, much less &#8364;1200. Now I know he wouldn't be taking a full months salary, but as far as vacation destinations go, Mexico is pretty affordable. Just stay away from border towns.


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## molsoncanadian (Jul 25, 2014)

tedtan said:


> You noticed that, too molsoncanadian? The last NGD thread I saw from him was for a strat where he stated that he would be changing the pickups out for BKPs. I mentioned that it was funny that all the djent guys would replace the pickups with BKPs immediately upon getting a new axe and he spent several posts trying to convince me to try BKPs. And I wasn't even knocking them, just pointing out the cliché.
> 
> I don't have an inherent problem with people pimping gear, but at least be transparent about it.


 
Haha, MORE than noticed, suprised its just us 2! #JUGGSFTW #PRSJUGGS #TELEJUGG #JUGGJUGG #WHATTHEJUGGISGOINGON


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 25, 2014)

frahmans said:


> Even Nuno Bettencourt is playing for Rihanna, right
> 
> There's the money aspect vs 'ego' aspect of staying metal.



Are you telling me you'd turn down the chance to play with Rihanna?

The songs aren't what I'd choose to listen to but think about it. You'd get to play with a kickass live band, in enormous arenas, still get to play guitar solos, tour all over the world and presumably earn shitloads. Then most of those guys (perhaps not Nuno because he's higher profile) can go out and have a quiet drink without being mobbed by fans. And Nuno still has his own band, who still rock, and are presumably bringing in decent money too.

I can't think of many better jobs, actually.


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## The Hiryuu (Jul 25, 2014)

BucketheadRules said:


> Are you telling me you'd turn down the chance to play with Rihanna?
> 
> The songs aren't what I'd choose to listen to but think about it. You'd get to play with a kickass live band, in enormous arenas, still get to play guitar solos, tour all over the world and presumably earn shitloads. Then most of those guys (perhaps not Nuno because he's higher profile) can go out and have a quiet drink without being mobbed by fans. And Nuno still has his own band, who still rock, and are presumably bringing in decent money too.
> 
> I can't think of many better jobs, actually.



This. A billion times this. I'd love to land a gig like Nuno's got.


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## Rojne (Jul 25, 2014)

Peter and Björn from In Flames has their restaurant/rock-bar "2112" in Gothenburg which is 
quite successful and Ander's has his record-label beside being a manager/producer for other acts! 
The band also owns the IF Studio which I believe generates some of money!

But that stuff is probably more to supplement their income so they really don't have to worry about 
money and to do fun stuff with their families, and (foremost) because they like doing other stuff than music too! 

Peter and Björn has contact with their restaurant on daily-basis and do as much as they can while on tour,
I can imagine them being stressed out as hell if something goes wrong when they're on the other side of the planet!


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## tedtan (Jul 25, 2014)

BucketheadRules said:


> Are you telling me you'd turn down the chance to play with Rihanna?



I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I read his post as saying that the money to be made in playing music isn't in playing metal, so if you want the money you have to go where it is (pop, country, RNB, etc.).


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## Alex Kenivel (Jul 25, 2014)

Musicians who are talented and make good money playing for acts they don't like have shackled ankles and are thrown in dungeons on their off time between gigs, often driving tour busses and setting up the stage. They gladly do it because they sold themselves so their families can eat. You can't see the tears on their faces at their sold out concerts that are sponsored by Pepsi and Nike, because casting any kind of spotlight on these poor people would take away from the head of the label's underage prostitute budget. 

_Tomorrow on Sick Sad World_


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## Jason2112 (Jul 25, 2014)

It was brought up earlier but not really emphasized that the cost of health insurance (in the US especially) is astronomical. I'm sure most of these guys have spouses that work full time and get health insurance for the whole family. That's a huge cost savings for the musicians so long as they stay married  I read an interview recently with Ola and he laid out his daily routine which includes picking up his son from day care. That assumes that his wife is also at work while he's at home during the day. It sounds like many of these musicians have found a way to make it work for them and their families, which is awesome.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 25, 2014)

We are musicians. We are not supposed to talk about our day jobs.

(It's all about what the public perceives as our "source of income".)


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## Zalbu (Jul 25, 2014)

Nats said:


> I'm still finding it really hard to believe the children of bodom guy is worth 6 mil.
> 
> edit: I'm the first to admit I don't like that band so I know nothing about what he does to be worth 6 mil, but I'm also wondering after seeing that some artists barely getting by while giving lessons and Randy Lamb of God making 200k/yr that there's really no middle ground here. But again, I don't follow band's finances and just assume everyone that isn't Justin Bieber is poor.


The Lamb of God guys said that they were broke after Randys manslaughter trial if that counts for anything. Any band would probably be broke after that though, I really have no idea how that process works.



BucketheadRules said:


> Are you telling me you'd turn down the chance to play with Rihanna?


Hell, playing guitar for somebody like Lady Gaga would be my dream. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6lh3ghfKfCU#t=85


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 25, 2014)

tedtan said:


> I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I read his post as saying that the money to be made in playing music isn't in playing metal, so *if you want the money you have to go where it is (pop, country, RNB, etc.)*.



Gladly!


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## drmosh (Jul 25, 2014)

Thorerges said:


> I took lessons with Christian Muenzner and for him that was his main source of income. He taught students all the time. If you do the math:
> 
> $40*number of students (each lesson is an hour, give or take 5 students a day) * 5 days = $800 from lessons. *4 = $3200 a month * 12 == LOL I might be overestimating this by a lot.
> 
> ...



dude, what about taxes, expenses, losses? 
That is a fairy tale calculation


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## JoeyBTL (Jul 25, 2014)

molsoncanadian said:


> Haha, MORE than noticed, suprised its just us 2! #JUGGSFTW #PRSJUGGS #TELEJUGG #JUGGJUGG #WHATTHEJUGGISGOINGON



I just wanted to comment on this because I don't see how you don't see his point in this. The BKP Juggernaut is his signature product. He wants as many of them to sell as possible. Telling people he's putting them in all his guitars is at very least him just advertising his product. If you were trying to sell something a grow a product would you not mention it whenever you can? Not only that, but if you do follow him on Facebook you'll notice that people incessantly ask him what pickups he has in his guitars, even after he's already said what is in them. So saying it to begin with could also be Misha covering himself. 

With this whole thread basically being about musicians not making a lot of money, anyone should understand why they would be trying to make as much as possible, when possible.


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## molsoncanadian (Jul 25, 2014)

JoeyBTL said:


> I just wanted to comment on this because I don't see how you don't see his point in this. The BKP Juggernaut is his signature product. He wants as many of them to sell as possible. Telling people he's putting them in all his guitars is at very least him just advertising his product. If you were trying to sell something a grow a product would you not mention it whenever you can? Not only that, but if you do follow him on Facebook you'll notice that people incessantly ask him what pickups he has in his guitars, even after he's already said what is in them. So saying it to begin with could also be Misha covering himself.
> 
> With this whole thread basically being about musicians not making a lot of money, anyone should understand why they would be trying to make as much as possible, when possible.



Fear not! This mysterious concept you are explaining is called marketing. This is not a foreign concept to most people, myself included! 

However, just stop and think about how many people who have signature pickups, and make daily posts about them, through multiple media outlets, like EVERY day haha. 

Sure I can understand doing a video or two showcasing their abilities, answering a question or two about them in gear interviews ect... however countlessly spamming them puts said individual into the same category as this fella! (See below)







As as you may, or may not have read the final sentence of my post, ill throw it back in there for ya



molsoncanadian said:


> Im just happy that musicians are finding alternative ways to help support their career's



I just think there are classier, non spammy ways of promoting your product. Just my opinion.

Cheers


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jul 25, 2014)

im pretty sure if you had you're own signature line of music related products you'd do the same. I know i'd be pushing that shit like a motherfvcker


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## JoeyBTL (Jul 25, 2014)

Well I don't believe it's spamming because he doesn't force it in anyone's face. You don't have to follow him on Facebook, it's your choice. Also, I think it stands out a lot in his case because I don't know any other people with signature gear that makes posts and posts pics as much as he does on a social media site, so it's really not a fair comparison.


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## Necropitated (Jul 26, 2014)

gigawhat said:


> For the record, depending on WHERE in Mexico, i.e. anywhere but Cancun and Acapulco or around Mexico City, $1200 would make you a king for a month, much less 1200. Now I know he wouldn't be taking a full months salary, but as far as vacation destinations go, Mexico is pretty affordable. Just stay away from border towns.



Yeah, but still, being on vacation for 4 weeks is a bit much if you're a "broke" musician. Hell, in my opinion, as a musician, you don't have time for vacation. I can't take any days off work this year because I need those for touring even if we won't tour. This means I'm working full-time all year and still play the guitar for at least 3 hours in the week and 6 on weekends. The only days off I had were for rehearsels.


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## SnowfaLL (Jul 26, 2014)

Just from what I see from my old classmates/teachers in a music college, a few of them do make a full time living from music, without even having nearly 1/5th of the record sales that metal guys would (they are mostly jazz guys) - it definitely comes down to lessons as the primary source of income, then just doing everything else that you can to supplement that. My old guitar teacher plays in like 5 different groups pretty consistently, and teaches a TON of lessons. He makes enough from it all to at least go see most of his students shows each night hes not playing, and buy a few beers. I recall a comment he made back when we were in school about our main instructor who was giving one student a hard time about being tired from having a part-time job while going to school full time, and he said "He doesn't understand how difficult it is for 99% of musicians, because hes been doing gigs since he was 15 and never had to work those other jobs like everyone else".. Conclusion: It's possible to make an "average" living from music, but you have to work your ass off.

For me, I decided music fulltime was not worth it (at this point in my development, anyways) because I would have to do tons of crap I dont want to do, such as teach lessons to kids or people who may not be "really" motivated, and play cover gigs or crappy pop music like I used to. I want a "good" living, not just surviving and living pay to pay barely. My job now makes quite a bit, and its generally 7-3 mon-fri so I can play music the rest of the night, and still afford all the expensive gear I want without sacrificing my enjoyment by playing stuff I have no interest in.

Looking at all my friends from that school who support themselves solely from music, most of them seem to have one common factor - they all date a like-minded person whos doing the same thing. Lessons + gigs/etc every night is probably approx $30,000 yearly, which is low for the average person, but times that by 2 people for an apartment and it doesn't sound too unreasonable anymore, almost getting into comfortable living even for Canada. Even if your gf just works a normal job and brings in minimum wage or higher, that can be a big help.


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## frahmans (Jul 26, 2014)

Bucket head, exactly. That's a kickass gig for any guitarist. But I don't know how much nuno makes but maybe with Rihanna and her money making machine, he'd get a pretty good amount to be part of her touring band.

Then, he can play extreme to play stuff he wants to play.


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## Timmy-Scandi (Jul 26, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Guitar lessons.
> Loads of talented musicians give guitar lessons.
> Here in Italy, which is an expensive place compared to 75% of Europe and United States, with 4 hours of lessons a day you can live very well.


In Italia riesci a vivere bene con 4 ore al giorno di lezioni??? Non lo avrei mai detto, è vero che io vivo in Svizzera, qui la vita è molto più cara, però non avrei mai pensato qualcuno potesse vivere con solo 4 ore di lezioni al giorno, a quanto ammonta circa il prezzo di un'ora di lezione in media?


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## tedtan (Jul 26, 2014)

JoeyBTL said:


> I just wanted to comment on this because I don't see how you don't see his point in this. The BKP Juggernaut is his signature product. He wants as many of them to sell as possible. Telling people he's putting them in all his guitars is at very least him just advertising his product.






JoeyBTL said:


> Well I don't believe it's spamming because he doesn't force it in anyone's face. You don't have to follow him on Facebook, it's your choice. Also, I think it stands out a lot in his case because I don't know any other people with signature gear that makes posts and posts pics as much as he does on a social media site, so it's really not a fair comparison.



There is a site for recording gear called Gearslutz.com. Over there, everyone ends up pimping whatever gear they have a financial interest in simply *because* they have a financial interest in it. It's hard to tell who is providing a legitimate review of a piece of gear and who is just out to make a couple $$$ because no one mentions their financial interest.

I haven't read the rules here in a while, but if memory serves, SSO has a rule that people have to include their music related business affiliations in their signatures to avoid that kind of thing. But even if we don't, we should because that kind of social marketing BS is better left elsewhere like his Facebook page. We don't need it here. I don't want this place to go down hill like Gearslutz has over the past several years.


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## Nats (Jul 26, 2014)

Timmy-Scandi said:


> In Italia riesci a vivere bene con 4 ore al giorno di lezioni??? Non lo avrei mai detto, è vero che io vivo in Svizzera, qui la vita è molto più cara, però non avrei mai pensato qualcuno potesse vivere con solo 4 ore di lezioni al giorno, a quanto ammonta circa il prezzo di un'ora di lezione in media?



You bring up a good question because now this thread also made me curious as to what prices for a lesson go for around the world. Although maybe that should be it's own thread...


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## Watty (Jul 26, 2014)

He could be a craigslist reseller ....I remember trying to snag a Line 6 something or other several years ago and it was him on the other end of the sale.


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## Zalbu (Jul 26, 2014)

tedtan said:


> I haven't read the rules here in a while, but if memory serves, SSO has a rule that people have to include their music related business affiliations in their signatures to avoid that kind of thing. But even if we don't, we should because that kind of social marketing BS is better left elsewhere like his Facebook page. We don't need it here. I don't want this place to go down hill like Gearslutz has over the past several years.


...what? So he shouldn't mention what pickups he uses, even though it's the perfect piece of gear to him, because of "social marketing BS"? He's the alpha dog of gear in a genre that's flooded with gear nerds and it's not exactly a secret that the Juggernauts are his signature pickups, so why does it matter?


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## tedtan (Jul 26, 2014)

^

He can recommend whatever gear he wants. But if he's making money from the sale of that gear, he needs to blatantly let everyone know that. 

Like I said before, I'm fine with people making money from marketing gear, just let us know up front that you're making money from it. Don't pretend to be just a regular user of that gear giving a glowing review when you actually have a financial stake in the sale of that gear. How else do we know if he's recommending it because he legitimately likes it or if he's recommending it because he makes money from it's sale?

In other words, just be transparent. Otherwise, if you're hiding shit and trying to play games, expect to be called out on it.


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## Thorerges (Jul 26, 2014)

Glenn Benton from Deicide owns a restaurant. But thats because 'Legion' alone sold 2 million records, ignoring all their other shit they've released. Deicide caught death metal in a good time and made very decent money.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jul 26, 2014)

tedtan said:


> ^
> 
> He can recommend whatever gear he wants. But if he's making money from the sale of that gear, he needs to blatantly let everyone know that.
> 
> ...




I see your point, but, he also designed the product, so it's doubtful that he _doesn't_ fully endorse it, whether he makes money from it or not. I'd imagine this is the case for most signature products.


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## Zalbu (Jul 26, 2014)

tedtan said:


> ^
> 
> He can recommend whatever gear he wants. But if he's making money from the sale of that gear, he needs to blatantly let everyone know that.
> 
> ...


The fact that he puts them in every humbucker guitar he owns and that he's currently recording his new album with them should be proof enough, no? And I don't really see why he needs to be upfront with it because a simple Google search takes you to the BKP website where it's obvious that it's his signature gear.


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## tedtan (Jul 26, 2014)

Zalbu said:


> The fact that he puts them in every humbucker guitar he owns and that he's currently recording his new album with them should be proof enough, no? And I don't really see why he needs to be upfront with it because a simple Google search takes you to the BKP website where it's obvious that it's his signature gear.



Ok, let me rephrase this. Who do you trust:

- A: Your guitar playing friend who just installed BKP Juggs and loves them, or

- B: The salesman trying to sell you BKP Juggs because he's paid to convince you they're great pickups?

And I don't mean to imply that the salesman can't legitimately like the Juggs, I'm just saying that it comes across very differently if he admits he's paid to sell them to you but like them anyway vs. pretending he's a regular Joe using them without any financial interest whatsoever. One is a legitimate position and the other is manipulating the people that don't know any better. And the latter shouldn't exist on SSO. Period.


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## frahmans (Jul 26, 2014)

tedtan said:


> ^
> 
> He can recommend whatever gear he wants. But if he's making money from the sale of that gear, he needs to blatantly let everyone know that.
> 
> ...



As a business, I'd assume there is contract or working agreement between BKP management and Misha's management. It's Misha's job to endorse the product that he has signed a contract on. It's the business side of music and signature gear.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jul 26, 2014)

tedtan said:


> Ok, let me rephrase this. Who do you trust:
> 
> - A: Your guitar playing friend who just installed BKP Juggs and loves them, or
> 
> ...





Again, he designed them, and uses them in recordings that others have access to, so it's not exactly the same as him pushing a product on his word alone. If they weren't his signature pickups and he was just pushing them because he got paid to do so, then it would be a little fishier.


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## ncfiala (Jul 26, 2014)

Given To Fly said:


> I do not consider teaching lessons/masterclasses/workshops/etc. as being a day job, its just one of the facets of being a musician. Teaching high school algebra would be an entirely different thing though.


 
Giving lessons and whatnot is most definitely having another job on top of being a musician. I bet that most musicians that give lessons because that can't make enough money with their music would quit giving lessons if they could. I'm a mathematics professor at a university and I would definitely consider it another job if I had to do tutoring to make ends meet. Thankfully I don't.

The fact is that the music industry is just like life. There are a tiny handful of people who make absurd sums of money and the rest barely scrape by. If you're contemplating a career in music, give up on metal now and learn how to be a pop star. Otherwise it's probably ramen and studio apartments for the rest of your life.


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## Hollowway (Jul 27, 2014)

I bothers me tremendously that a successful mucisian (defined as a being listened to more than the average musician) makes oodles less than Kim Kardashian, the Real Housewives of Wherever, etc. And it's not unusual for a big name artist to make next to nothing at the end of their recording contract. Remember the Behind the Music on TLC? After the Crazy Sexy Cool album (the one with Waterfalls) they were broke. It was because the video shoots, the tour, all that stuff was taken out of their contract. The contract they got was not IN ADDITION to their salary. It was all included. MC Hammer is a good example of what record companies try to get away with. He was selling tapes out of his trunk, and when he was offered a record contract, he did the math and said, "You know what? Thanks but no thanks. I can actually make more just selling tapes out of my car." He was then able to negotiate a much more lucrative deal (which he promptly pissed away ).

Anyway, given how hugely popular music is, you'd think that the average artist would make more. But I guess unless you're a pop star....


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## yingmin (Jul 27, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> MC Hammer is a good example of what record companies try to get away with. He was selling tapes out of his trunk, and when he was offered a record contract, he did the math and said, "You know what? Thanks but no thanks. I can actually make more just selling tapes out of my car." He was then able to negotiate a much more lucrative deal (which he promptly pissed away ).



Funny to think that someone with the presence of mind and business sense to do that could have made the terrible decisions he made with money later.


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## Zalbu (Jul 27, 2014)

tedtan said:


> Ok, let me rephrase this. Who do you trust:
> 
> - A: Your guitar playing friend who just installed BKP Juggs and loves them, or
> 
> ...


I'd still go with Misha because he knows more about gear than me and my friends can ever dream of knowing. And it's not really fair to call Misha a salesman in this because he designed the pickups to his exact wants and needs so it's pretty unlikely that he'd promote it just because he gets paid.

I mean, we're talking about Misha here, a guy who refuses to get a guitar sponsorship because he doesn't want to restrict himself to one brand and wants to be able to play as many different guitars as possible. I really don't think he'd be using gear that he doesn't think is the best he can get his hands on.


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## tedtan (Jul 27, 2014)

Zalbu, you and Adam have to be intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying. 

It is fine to design pickups, have endorsements, earn money from gear sales, etc. Just let people know that fact up front rather than pretending to be a regular guy all the while pimping gear you earn money from. The first approach is fine, the latter is sleazy and deceitful.

And I do realize that he is well known in certain circles, but we have to keep in mind that not everyone knows who he is to begin with, let alone what his user name is here on the forums. So a newb could easily believe he's just another poster here. So while you and I know who he is, we have to remember that not everyone does and its these people I'm interested in "protecting", not everyone who already knows who's who.


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## Zalbu (Jul 27, 2014)

tedtan said:


> And I do realize that he is well known in certain circles, but we have to keep in mind that not everyone knows who he is to begin with, let alone what his user name is here on the forums. So a newb could easily believe he's just another poster here. So while you and I know who he is, we have to remember that not everyone does and its these people I'm interested in "protecting", not everyone who already knows who's who.


That's a good point, but I really don't see why we need to protect those people. Bareknuckles are expensive pickups from a brand that's not as well known as Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio outside gear nerd circles. I doubt many people will just impulse buy them because they see that one person is endorsing them on a forum.


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## tedtan (Jul 27, 2014)

If you go over to the Andy Sneap forum, they're all about Dimarzio, Duncan and EMGs. If you go to The Gear Page, they're all about Lollars, Fralins, Wolfetones, etc. The BKPs are big here because of certain influential djent guitarists that use them and happen to post here. But they're almost never mentioned elsewhere. So the facts that they're expensive, not well known outside of SSO, pimped pretty hard here, and damn near impossible to try them out before you buy them is precisely why those people need to know whether or not the people praising BKPs have a financial interest in them so that they can make an informed decision.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jul 27, 2014)

For the record, I agree with you, partially. I mean, you are right - it should be out in the open, but I do think Misha frequently mentions that they're his signature pickups, as I'm sure he is proud of that fact.


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## tedtan (Jul 27, 2014)

Those of us who have been around a while know he represents BKPs. And don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply that he is deliberately misleading people. He's probably a good guy who's just excited about his pickups.

My vitriol for this type of social marketing comes from watching Gearslutz go down hill and I don't mean to sound like I'm directing that to bulb. I just don't want SSO to follow suit.


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## wilch (Jul 27, 2014)

molsoncanadian said:


> Fear not! This mysterious concept you are explaining is called marketing. This is not a foreign concept to most people, myself included!
> 
> However, just stop and think about how many people who have signature pickups, and make daily posts about them, through multiple media outlets, like EVERY day haha.
> 
> ...



Great... I came in here to read about Jeff and now I'm leaving a little bit poorer because I just ordered a Schticky.


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## xCaptainx (Jul 27, 2014)

I think it's painfully obvious that Bulb doesn't put his name to things unless he REALLY believes it. 

I mean, I know that's the case for 99.9% of signature artists anyway, but it's even more obvious with his work. I'm sure he would have had a signature guitar by now through any other retailer if all he was concerned about was the profit margin. 

Back on topic, I've been curious about Jeff and how he generates income for a while. He has not been doing Nevermore for quite some time, and 90% of incomes nowadays comes from touring. I'm presuming he's handled his incomings well and has a variety of other income sources. I know he does a lot of Schecter clinics, which would be invoiced accordingly. He did an Australian/NZ clinic run last year for them.


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## TheShreddinHand (Jul 27, 2014)

Should have linked the interview originally with Keith, but here it is (you just have to scroll over for the video interview):

Guitar Interactive Magazine Issue 26 Guitar Interactive Magazine Issue 26

Pretty sure Keith is considering working for Seymour Duncan as part of "living off of music". Lumping it in with everything else music related he does.


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