# Advise from a veteran...



## JP Universe (Nov 22, 2014)

(Customs) Where do I start... I'll start with (if you are considering a custom build enquire here first). Let's get a few rules straight... Low price/disaster guys, if you want a custom I'm sorry but you need to save 5k for a reasonable guitar to come alive..... Take it or leave it!! Siggery is not the answer (just let it go!!!) your next custom is better than that!!! Marty loves you but it's too much to chance. Trust me, leave it the .... alone!! Skervesen/BW leave it alone too!! If you're going to drop money on a custom let me know!! I'm more than happy to guide you.... Ormsby? Yeah if you can get a gig you're sweet!! Other than that.... Buy the production guitar that you like!!!!!) seriously I just want my guitar mates too be happy  ....... Useless post right? if you're here you dont need someone else telling you how good your guitar is! I'm probably jealous of yours......


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 22, 2014)

I'd space it out If I was sober.... Oh well. I'll take the neg rep


----------



## Steinmetzify (Nov 22, 2014)

Screw that, it's good advice...I've watched so many people get burned on this forum over the last two years it's ridiculous. I'd say unless you actually know the guy or he's got a completely stellar rep, just go production.


----------



## Churchie777 (Nov 22, 2014)

Ive been thinking of going with either BRJ or S7G advice?.....  but yeah on serious note people don't seem to learn or read they keep falling in the same hole


----------



## Zalbu (Nov 22, 2014)

Why should you avoid Skervesen? I've seen minimal complaints from them and they're probably the ones I'd go for when/if I'll ever get the chance to buy a custom (which I probably will because I can't think of a single guitar that even have the pickup configuration and scale length I want).


----------



## -DTP- (Nov 22, 2014)

I'm starting to feel this way too and I haven't even had a custom delivered yet


----------



## mnemonic (Nov 22, 2014)

This reminds me of some old thread that got necro'd not too long ago, one of the first posts was something along the lines of "who needs big name custom shops when people like Mike Sherman and Roter Guitars will make better guitars for less money!"

...if only they knew, they could have saved a lot of heartache.


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 22, 2014)

Wow, talk about a drunken rant  cringeworthy looking back on it. Oh well..... Yes, I'd avoid skervesen, wait time is getting too high and the one I received had some issues that were unacceptable in a high end guitar. At the time I was happy but not good enough


----------



## Jlang (Nov 22, 2014)

I dunno, my skervy is top notch.


----------



## tedtan (Nov 22, 2014)

JP Universe said:


> Wow, talk about a drunken rant



You were drunk at 9:24AM?


----------



## Jlang (Nov 22, 2014)

tedtan said:


> You were drunk at 9:24AM?



Considering he is from Australia =p


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Nov 22, 2014)

JP Universe said:


> Wow, talk about a drunken rant  cringeworthy looking back on it.



Try waking up to to an email that you drunkenly bought a guitar off ebay.

Its a lot different for 7-8 string players nowadays. 2-3 years ago if you wanted a high quality fixed bridge, adjustable saddles, 26.5, mahogany bodied, passive pickup guitar you were shit out of luck. Now features like that are common place. Unless you know exactly what you want or want different scale lengths then there is very little reason to go custom anymore.


----------



## yellowv (Nov 22, 2014)

I will never buy a custom. Too much bullshit and horror stories. Too many great production guitars out there. PRS, EBMM, Caparison, Ibanez, ESP, etc. I can find specs close enough to what I like. I don't need to choose the every damn detail and wait 7 years for someone to .... it up anyway or just take my money and go out of business.


----------



## AxeHappy (Nov 22, 2014)

I've ordered 5 customs in the last 2 years and 4 of them have been delivered. And I don't expect the Ormsby to be finished for quite a while.

You just need to not pick shitty "companies" to order from.


----------



## Axel_Blaze (Nov 22, 2014)

JP Universe said:


> (Customs) Where do I start... I'll start with (if you are considering a custom build enquire here first). Let's get a few rules straight... Low price/disaster guys, if you want a custom I'm sorry but you need to save 5k for a reasonable guitar to come alive..... Take it or leave it!! Siggery is not the answer (just let it go!!!) your next custom is better than that!!! Marty loves you but it's too much to chance. Trust me, leave it the .... alone!! Skervesen/BW leave it alone too!! If you're going to drop money on a custom let me know!! I'm more than happy to guide you.... Ormsby? Yeah if you can get a gig you're sweet!! Other than that.... Buy the production guitar that you like!!!!!) seriously I just want my guitar mates too be happy  ....... Useless post right? if you're here you dont need someone else telling you how good your guitar is! I'm probably jealous of yours......



Aww, I love you too, bro


----------



## Hollowway (Nov 22, 2014)

Agreed on the bit about buying a production instrument - basically, if you can find a production instrument with the specs you want, BUY IT! If you want something else, go custom, and fasten your seat belt.


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF (Nov 23, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> Agreed on the bit about buying a production instrument - basically, if you can find a production instrument with the specs you want, BUY IT! If you want something else, go custom, and fasten your seat belt.



I wish more production instruments had specs I liked a decade ago. When I realized you could get a highly custom instrument, or custom options to a set design, I was blown away because I was never fully satisfied with anything that any production brand sold at the time. I've owned 13 production guitars over the last 15 years and have only kept 4, mostly for reasons other than the specs (1st guitar, special tribute, etc.). 

I'm very very anal and picky about certain things so I'm more or less stuck going custom/semi-custom until very recently. A couple luthiers have been perfect but overall it is a roller coaster. What happened with BRJ, why it has taken 4 years to not receive a NECK (CWG- I'm holding this story until it is resolved), and the other horror stories make it just not worth it in most cases. I'm glad I've had more success than disaster but it really does take something like 4 or 5K to be the closest to certain that expectations will be met or surpassed. 

After all the custom blow-back over the years, I do NOT knock production guitars. It's a viable and consistent option and way more likely to save the headache and misery of a bad investment. Likewise for a guy who is now primarily a custom instrument buyer I have a narrow and short list of luthiers I'll choose from. There were painful lessons learned making it.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm sure plenty of people will disagree. I've gotten multiple JP Music Man's with slight issues, higher-end Ibby's with problems, and Custom ordered Carvins that were just as good if not better than the Music Mans. 

I'm really looking into Skeversen- and someone else told me to be weary. I researched and I really haven't seen the complaints to warrant the "avoid them at all costs" commentary. 
I've seen a lot about Strandberg lately and I still ordered one of those. We'll see how that goes... but I honestly don't feel that even a higher-end production model guitar is the 100% safe bet you think it is.


----------



## tedtan (Nov 23, 2014)

Jlang said:


> Considering he is from Australia =p



I thought he had moved, but I'm probably mixing him up with someone else. 





Uncreative123 said:


> but I honestly don't feel that even a higher-end production model guitar is the 100% safe bet you think it is.



Production guitars aren't always perfect (is anything ever perfect?), but they offer something customs don't - you can play them before you buy them, so you'll know if that particular instrument works for you before spend your money. And even if you buy online/from out of state, you can still return it for a full refund in most cases.

So it's not about production guitars being perfect, it's that they're readily available, you know you'll get what you paid for, and you'll know what you're getting before you buy and/or can return it for a full refund if not satisfied.


----------



## yingmin (Nov 23, 2014)

Uncreative123 said:


> I'm sure plenty of people will disagree. I've gotten multiple JP Music Man's with slight issues, higher-end Ibby's with problems, and Custom ordered Carvins that were just as good if not better than the Music Mans.


In fairness, Carvin A) is not really a "custom" builder, and B) has a long track record and a strong reputation, which can not be said about most of the builders people here have bought customs from.


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 23, 2014)

I've actually had a couple of PM's from people asking for more info so I'll do a proper write up with my thoughts on each guitar that's mentioned here on SS.ORG to try and salvage this thread


----------



## sehnomatic (Nov 23, 2014)

Let's be real here: There are a lot of NGD posts for "custom" guitars that either look like something out of indonesia or a high school wood shop assignment.


----------



## raytsh (Nov 24, 2014)

Jlang said:


> I dunno, my skervy is top notch.



Same here.


----------



## vansinn (Nov 24, 2014)

Methinks the OP post is just a touch overrated..
For sure a real good custom does carry fairly high costs to it, and I have read a number of times that not all are fully satisfied with their so-so affordable custom.

However, I'll also say that some of the blame could be placed on the musician.
In general, I'd say that with just about any type of instrument, it really pays spending time learning how it actually works, what does what, what matters a lot, and what's less important - because this will enable you to place the right kind of demands on the builder and have a good sufficiently detailed techie discussion before ordering.

Being able to shop a perfect factory build is sortof tantamount to self-illusion, which isn't intended as pun, but merely to say that, again, knowledge will enable you to scoop that factory build up to how you actually want it.


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 24, 2014)

This is all strictly my opinion based on hanging out here for 4 years.. I spend on average about 1-2 hours a day on here, TGP, Jemsite and Vintage Rocker mainly as an observer. 

*Custom or production?*

I'll start with going down the custom route.

Only you can answer this Go with your gut. A lot of guys will tell you that if you don't know what you want go production but at the end of the day you have to get what makes you happy. What annoys us here is when people come in and say 'I want a custom but I don't know what?'

Save up your pennies, if you're going to spend 3k on a guitar you may as well save up the extra $1000 or 2 for a truly special guitar that you will never sell.

Patience. you will need it. I consider myself very patient but custom guitars test you out. prepare for delays on almost anything that you decide to go with

RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. spend 50 hours researching before writing up a thread, if you narrow it down to 2-3 brands you're well on your way. If you want the experience of going custom go for it. Google all the NGD's and the companies names. What you are looking for in an NGD is an honest review, not hype building honeymoon NGD's. A lot of us are guilty with this, myself included. Also exclude any artist reviews. Look in the classifieds for reselling of those brands. I will say it's better if you can get your first custom within your country if possible. That's not a strict rule to follow but consider the extra fees. I know here in Australia Customs is a pain in the ass plus I pay an extra 20% of the total price in custom fees and shipping.

The problem I see a lot around here is that people will shop for a custom with too small a budget in mind. I made this mistake when I started my journey a couple of years ago. I will say this. If you are spending less than 4K on a custom you MAY not get a flawless instrument and you will probably compromise on something. There are exceptions Some people get lucky, some people have different standards. 

On to my company by company analysis -

*Poland*

Mayones - I've never played one so i'm going off the hundred or so reviews/NGD's etc I've looked at. A wise choice if you went with them IMO considering their experience level. Perfect choice if you are in Poland!! 

(I simply don't get into them for some reason but if you dig them I'd go for it )

Ran - I haven't played one, again based off all of my research they look pretty good I wouldn't put them up with Mayones based on their experience level but I can't recall a bad one on here or any horror stories. (Correct me if i'm wrong)

Skervesen - Riskier option, Skervesen have great pics, great prices and simple model choices to spec out like the Raptor. It all looks very appealing but quality wise you are not looking at the top tier. Their wood stash and QC is not top of the range. Some guys rave about them, I know I did when I got mine but looking back compared to my experience with Ron Thorn and Perry Ormsby they are not at that high level yet. Pretty on the outside (SS frets/BKP's coloured burl tops etc) That's what drew me in originally

*UK*

Blackmachine -  my favourite ss.org threads are BM related threads. I've never played them but I will take a guess that they are virtually Top tier (The wood stash can look plain at times) but way overpriced, unfortunately got hit by supply and demand and Dougs accidental marketing genius. No they won't change your life Some guys swear by these and won't move them. Fair enough, they've found the one more power to them. 

Daemoness - (I haven't played one) If you're going for an art themed guitar no-one else can do what Dylan does, he's continually improving and it's scary how good he is going to get with his inlay work and his ideas based on the pics I've seen. In the past there have been some less than stellar work (There was a white one here in Oz which apparently had some kind of issues and the watch inlay bounces around FS)

However If you're into metal and have a cool theme in mind which you will still like in 24-36 months don't give it a 2nd thought.

Siggery - The price is really attractive but Martys not pumping the guitars out as quick as he should. How many new Siggery NGD's have you seen here? Eeeek my first custom experience. 2 years without any pics. That was enough, I sold my spot moved on.

*USA*

KxK - If an in stock has the specs you like go for it. I sold both of mine but they were both amazing guitars. I was confused that there were so many in the classifieds but don't fear. Light, great sounding and lovely builds

Blackwater - Quality seems to be quite good but has had timeframe issues in the past, approach with caution

Thorn - If you want a 6 string straight fretted custom Superstrat/Tele/Strat don't look any further than Ron. Top tier builder and good timeframe. The pricing isn't too bad either. Mainly a TGP builder but between Mat, Eric and myself there's a few owned on here  My personal favourite luthier

Think Suhr/Tom Anderson with some added 'mojo' whatever that is.

Decibel - Approach with caution, i'm not convinced yet on delivery expectation. Once Darren churns out some builds he'll be set. Love his ideas and vision, just needs to execute.

*Australia*

Oni - Grabbed one used here and owned for years until just recently moved it (NGD is up at the moment from new owner). Build quality top notch, Top Tier keep an eye out for any builds on Dans Facebook. Not sure why a guy in the States has not picked up Brandons blue monster yet!!!

Ormsby - By far best communication you can have with a Facebook group, almost too much  Builds look to be top tier from reviews etc and you hardly ever see them sell which is a testament to the quality. Will get my Hypemachine in the next couple months. I'll bet my house that it's perfection.

Etherial - Stay away, build and QC issues. Too much vision and not enough practicality. Still learning


Missed a few guys, Xen/Tom Drinkwater/Bowes/Elysian/Searls - If they have what you're after you should be in safe hands  PM them, they post regularly here

Strictly 7 - avoid like the plague, I played one and I didn't like it at all, and this one didn't have any QC issues

.Strandberg* - If you're after a made to measure I probably wouldn't bother getting on the wait list now. You'll be waiting 5 years minimum The Washbergs seem to be a bit of a gamble at this stage

I missed a heap of custom guitar builders but covered the main ones on here. If I save one guy from making a bad decision on a custom this thread was worth it

Again I will state that this is my opinion and not to be taken as fact. I will post my production/Semi custom guitar thoughts under here once I find another half hour of time!!


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 24, 2014)

Acacia - Stay away

Vik - Stay away


----------



## Wolfhorsky (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks for sharing Your thoughts.


----------



## Prog_Freak (Nov 24, 2014)

All this talk of customs, $5K for basic, etc makes me wonder if you need to make over $300K/year to post here ! LOL
Remember that NOT everyone has unlimited funds and are on a "fixed" budget where there's only 3 options: 1) Do without. 2) Save a reasonable amount of time for a fairly good production model. 3) Save for YEARS possibly a decade for the "High End" instruments or a custom.
I'm not that much of a purest that I just need such and such a scale length, the string MUST be X amount of whatever, the pickups have to be hand wired by Juan Valdez and etc.
Yeah I'm probably gonna get flamed for this post, but someone needs to point these facts out.
There's gonna be varying degrees of happiness either if it's a Custom or a Production guitar, that's just a human trait.
Would I want a custom ? Actually NO, even with "strap locks" I'd be terrified of the bloody thing going "KABOOM" on the stage to play it live, considering the chunk of money that one costs. Enter production models, yes I'd cringe big time if the strap came off but compare a dent in a Camero vs. a Porche in terms of just how bad it is costs wise.
Besides I'm not doing PRO gigs so there is no need for such a luxury item, besides will the average listener know the difference between the sounds of a Active Vs Passive PU after the effects are added, mixed, and Mastered ?
I'm not knocking customs, I'm just facing the reality of MY situation and my choices.
I'm REALLY SORRY if this post sounds like I'm trying to stir up resentment/flame war. That is not my intention and I could have worded this reply in a much better way that does not sound angry or resentful.


----------



## Tisca (Nov 24, 2014)

What I take from this is that OP hasn't actually played most of the brands he's talking about and his info is based on reading what others have said on SSO. I have also no-lifed hard on message boards since 2002 but I still need to play before knowing. Sure I'd take a chance on some brands without playing based on what I've read and stay away from others.


----------



## and7guitarist (Nov 24, 2014)

I agree with this even though I plan on getting a custom. I think a lot of players feel they need one to be a legit player but if all you want is a 7 string with weird pick ups or something it's not hard to buy a production guitar and mod it.

Now if your like me, and want a scalloped 27 fret multi-scale with a single coil neck pick up and the whole thing built out of carbon fiber then you need to start emailing some custom shops. 

Speaking of which anyone know any companies building carbon fiber guitars? Etherial (Opinions/experience on them?) is the only one I've found but I'd like to know all my options.

edit: I think I'll make that last sentence a separate thread.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Nov 24, 2014)

I am a bit less extreme in my approach, simply because there's a whole lot of factors to consider when I look at third party reviewers I don't know myself (although quite a few peeps from around here have tastes or ways to approach their review I'm familiar with, mind you).

If expectations were unrealistically high (up to or even the good old "angel choirs singing on every note, unicorn horn and fairy dust" level), people may have one of two reactions: the guitar is, irrespective of its factual quality, godlike or disappointing, depending on how much the recent owner is either attempting to have the thing live up to said expectations or simply faces the fact of them not being met, which often leads to an overly enthusiastic or bitter nature to the post.

Then there's the whole subjective side of things, which may "bleed" to the actual review, resulting in a certain clouding of the objective factors by being apologetic pertaining flaws or exacerbating minor (or even not objective) defects when present.

Last but not least, real world experience - I don't have a hint of a doubt in my mind the kid that just got that KM7 or Washberg or whatever is pleased, but it is a MASSIVE difference to say "this guitar feels and sounds amazing like no other!" when comparing something like a proper Suhr to his Custom 24 or having a falling apart GiO and several experiences with crappily setup and often neglected to hell and back guitars at the local shop.

All in all, it takes more than the odd NGD to establish an opinion in my case, and I'm typically far more concerned with bizarre twists in delivery times, consistent flaws and, above all, how brands proceed to approach and solve the customers' woes if at all. 

Stuff like S7G is an extreme example, but the whole ordeal SCREAMS disaster ever since the .strandberg* deal went south, with objective flaws popping up left and right, the dismal customer relations, online breakdowns and last but not least failure to address customers' orders and increasingly suspicious events like guitars paid in full beforehand and the like. Add to this BRJ, the disappearances of Mike Sherman and DAR, and search back in the forum: the signs are there for everyone to see, really.


----------



## stevexc (Nov 24, 2014)

Prog_Freak said:


> All this talk of customs, $5K for basic, etc makes me wonder if you need to make over $300K/year to post here !
> Remember that NOT everyone has unlimited funds and are on a "fixed" budget where there's only 3 options: 1) Do without. 2) Save a reasonable amount of time for a fairly good production model. 3) Save for YEARS possibly a decade for the "High End" instruments or a custom.
> I'm not that much of a purest that I just need such and such a scale length, the string MUST be X amount of whatever, the pickups have to be hand wired by Juan Valdez and etc.
> Yeah I'm probably gonna get flamed for this post, but someone needs to point these facts out.
> ...



I don't quite understand the point of this post at all. This thread's purpose is to say if you want a custom guitar, you will get what you pay for and the price level that separates "good" from "bad" is not a low one. OP did not at any point say "you NEED to have a custom guitar". He's not addressing this thread to people in the situation you're in. He's addressing this to the people that come in saying "I need to have exactly 26.76" scale with 9 strings and a custom inlay and a blowjob machine and solid gold frets and Juggernauts and it needs to sound exactly like Misha's Blackmachine does... but only for $2000"

I mean, that's cool that you know you don't need or want a custom. But it's also highly irrelevant. No, not everyone can afford a custom guitar. But the point is if you can't afford a high-end custom you shouldn't bother with the "cheap" brands because you're just going to end up with a $2000 wall ornament, if it's even in a state to be displayed like some of the examples we've seen.


JP Universe - I totally agree with your general stance. 100%. There are a few luthiers out there doing amazing work for a lower price point (Bowes jumps to mind, albeit you've got less flexibility than with some luthiers), but the vast majority of the time you get what you pay for. However, I wouldn't toss out subjective reviews without a good deal of first-hand experience... we've got enough rumours and hype and bad information floating around the forum in general. I'm not saying your reviews in general are inaccurate, they seem to be pretty good, but there's no good sense in contributing to that. However, I do think it would be a really good idea to have a compilation of NGDs and other general info on each major luthier that SSO tends to be attracted to, so we can just direct people to an overview thread.

The only thing I can really contribute is the one RAN I've played was a fantastic guitar and reminded me of an ESP in terms of overall feel and neck carve. Plus they've been very easy to get a hold of for quotes, even if I have no plans on actually buying a guitar from them for a long while.


----------



## patsanger (Nov 24, 2014)

I think some of the biggest things to watch for here are the threads of runs that never seem to be filled.

That might be why OP mentioned Siggery - if you read the Siggery thread you can see that the production has slowed. Wait till it starts up again and you can probably go there for a guitar,

Decibel is trying to come back from multiple runs and hopefully they do. (Oh and OP - I believe Decibel is in Australia)...

Many of the issues that are being brought up here boil down to two things - 

1) Do you your research if you are interested. Read everything and hit all the threads you can - Google can be your friend.

2) Trust your gut. If something seems weird or there are lots of excuses, wait it to join or get a custom from the luthier until they are back on track or walk away from it.

Customs are not for everyone, I have 2 going - 1 with Ormsby and 1 with Sully. I do not make 300k a year. My family made the decision with me and support me getting these. I'm not a pro, but I know what I like and wanted to try these.

Just be careful out there everyone.  - and find out their refund policy and get it in writing.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Nov 24, 2014)

Decibel is in Canada.


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 24, 2014)

Yeah apologies on the Decibel misinformation!! I haven't done the semi custom/production run post yet which gives advice for going down that direction. Much safer road to go on  BTW I make less than 100k/year  if you simply don't have the money go production/semi custom or take a big risk with your hard earned $

With regards to the ones I haven't played myself that is correct, I tried not to get into too much detail and welcome input from owners if I miss it. It just saves you googling 100 different reviews. In almost all cases you won't be able to try before you buy


----------



## patsanger (Nov 24, 2014)

Fred the Shred said:


> Decibel is in Canada.



Oops


----------



## Januar74 (Nov 24, 2014)

sehnomatic said:


> Let's be real here: There are a lot of NGD posts for "custom" guitars that either look like something out of indonesia or a high school wood shop assignment.



Yes you're right, I'm one of them, I posted two thread of "custom" guitars, local luthiers from my country, Indonesia


----------



## frahmans (Nov 24, 2014)

sehnomatic said:


> Let's be real here: There are a lot of NGD posts for "custom" guitars that either look like something out of indonesia or a high school wood shop assignment.



Aw, nothing wrong with Indonesia. Weather is good, food is great, and it's the home of a lot of ebony 

People need to tame their own expectations - sometimes it is a matter of the amount you put in equals the quality you are getting. 

A 1K custom out of aN unknown luthier or other country would at best be better than a Korean or Mexican made guitar. 

If you can't accept that then save up for the 5K. And why don't I see more Rick Toone NGd round these parts - now that man makes custom.


----------



## sehnomatic (Nov 24, 2014)

frahmans said:


> Aw, nothing wrong with Indonesia. Weather is good, food is great, and it's the home of a lot of ebony
> 
> People need to tame their own expectations - sometimes it is a matter of the amount you put in equals the quality you are getting.
> 
> ...



Apologies, I should have put a price point somewhere in my comment... somewhere around $3k and the maybe some examples of work around there.


----------



## oracles (Nov 24, 2014)

I feel like this thread is long overdue. Speaking solely for myself here, it gets really tiring reading the ever growing list of threads "X builder ripped me off" when all the signs were there, just like we've seen time and time again. We see builders pop up overnight with pretty pictures of a BM clone or a metal-esque super strat, and everyone loses their minds over it. They build for a few Internet celebrities who post hype threads for discounts, and we watch people get burned, and despite the best efforts of those who are wiser, we still see the same thread "my custom from build X sucks" , "I never got my custom from builder Y" and somehow, people are surprised. 

The basic principle here is simple. The established CS shops are in business, and have been in business for this long because they can deliver a solid product, and have the track record to prove it. Do they charge more than your fly by night, flavour of the month builder? Yes. The difference lies in security.

If you're choosing a builder because your favourite djent hero just got one of their customs, at this point, with this many failed luthiers and scammed forum members, I'm all out of sympathy for you. You ignored the same warning signs we saw in Acacia, S7G, Roter, Emperion, Sherman, Invictus, the list goes on for far too long. 

These are the points I cannot stress enough:
- DO YOUR FVCKING RESEARCH. Ignore artist ngd threads. Take honeymoon "omg best guitar ever" threads with a grain of salt. Watch which luthiers have their builds flipped constantly. Read threads about builds in progress, take note of the issues, weigh up the risks. 

- If something sounds too good to be true, IT PROBABLY IS. Should you need more proof, the BRJ BFR thread is lengthy and well documented. 

- If you aren't prepared to part with $3k+, don't even bother. Good customs cost money, just like any other quality item does. i.e good tattoos are not cheap, and cheap tattoos are not good. Both are sizeable investments, and both can be just as hard to get rid of when they go bad. 

- Custom instruments do NOT make you a better player. You want to get better? Go practice. 

- GOOD CUSTOMS TAKE TIME. If you're choosing a builder because they've quoted you 3-4 months as opposed to 18 months and upwards, I hope you aren't expecting a high quality instrument. 

Buying a CS instrument should be approached with as much caution as buying a house. Both require time, patience, and a large outlay of finance. Both can make you happy. Both require that you make intelligent choices.


----------



## will_shred (Nov 25, 2014)

JP Universe said:


> Acacia - Stay away
> 
> Vik - Stay away



Why avoid Vik? Besides the fact that he's kind of a douche, he does make some beautiful guitars.


----------



## stevexc (Nov 25, 2014)

will_shred said:


> Why avoid Vik? Besides the fact that he's kind of a douche, he does make some beautiful guitars.



IIRC, issues with guitars actually getting built and sent out - he's got a bad track record of taking forever to build a guitar, then taking even longer to get it sent out - even taking customers' guitars to NAMM. I think there's some more to it as well.


----------



## hairychris (Nov 25, 2014)

frahmans said:


> People need to tame their own expectations - sometimes it is a matter of the amount you put in equals the quality you are getting.
> *
> A 1K custom out of aN unknown luthier or other country would at best be better than a Korean or Mexican made guitar.*



These 2 paragraphs contradict each other, sort of.

A local reputable luthier (I can't speak for Indonesia but can for the countries that the majority of posters come from!) does not have the economies of scale that can produce a good instrument for <$1k. It will not happen. Parts & materials would be maybe $300 for average stuff, no sane luthier in the UK will pay themselves only $700 for the amount of hours required to build a guitar unless it was a personal project/student build/etc.

I don't want someone who isn't sane to build me a guitar. A certain guy called Eric DeVries springs to mind on that count, and even he charges way more than $1k! 

I own very, very good Mexican (Fender) and Korean (Ibanez) guitars that would cost me $2.5k+ for any luthier I would trust to duplicate to that quality. I've also bought a Schecter, new but B-stock, for less than the UK retail of it's hardware*... Small luthiers do not get massive discounts on parts. Again, no economy of scale.

The quality of cheap guitars is far better now then it was in the 80s. At that time affordable customs did not exist either. You were stuck playing crap until you could afford a good production instrument, that with inflation is in the region of the 2-3K that we're talking now.

Basically people need to stop complaining. If they don't have the cash for a custom instrument then they can't have one. I'd love a big house and fast car but can't afford one.

Entitlement much? So yeah, tame those expectations!

* Think about that. I bought pickups, bridge, tuners, wiring and got a free guitar including delivery.


----------



## absolutorigin (Nov 25, 2014)

Prog_Freak said:


> All this talk of customs, $5K for basic, etc makes me wonder if you need to make over $300K/year to post here !
> Remember that NOT everyone has unlimited funds and are on a "fixed" budget where there's only 3 options: 1) Do without. 2) Save a reasonable amount of time for a fairly good production model. 3) Save for YEARS possibly a decade for the "High End" instruments or a custom.
> I'm not that much of a purest that I just need such and such a scale length, the string MUST be X amount of whatever, the pickups have to be hand wired by Juan Valdez and etc.
> Yeah I'm probably gonna get flamed for this post, but someone needs to point these facts out.
> ...



I understand where you're coming from, but come on man. You don't need to be making anywhere near 300k a year to afford this stuff. Sure, customs aren't needed for the majority of us. But if guitars were sold solely on the buyers skill then the high end guitar market would go out of business. Even the hobbyists want the nice stuff . Its not always about the sound either. One thing is that most of the expensive guitars I've come by tend to play real well with excellent fret jobs. As far as affording these instruments, it's about living within the means. Then again, I'm a bit older and no longer a teenager, but it still applies. I have a decent job, no kids and don't have a fashion problem. Sure, I've spent some money on my guitars, but it's just a guitar. It's meant to played and not a case queen. You should see the all the little dings my DGT has from my aggressive picking .

As for the original topic. Customs are great, but no doubt it helps to go with someone with a good track record. Production instruments obviously have their advantages in many regards. If possible I think one of the best ways is to get a custom from one of these bigger companies. It may cost a bit more, but usually will get what you asked for and it will be delivered promptly. Unless it's Jackson .


----------



## TedEH (Nov 25, 2014)

hairychris said:


> no sane luthier in the UK will pay themselves only $700 for the amount of hours required to build a guitar



For the sake of conversation, what would that amount of hours be? I'm not (and I assume other also are not) familiar with the actual amount of time and work involved in the construction of a guitar. I've never got the impression that customs were priced per time requirement in the same sense as breaking it down to an hourly rate- I think breaking it down in that way might make it easier to assign a value to it.


----------



## troyguitar (Nov 25, 2014)

TedEH said:


> For the sake of conversation, what would that amount of hours be? I'm not (and I assume other also are not) familiar with the actual amount of time and work involved in the construction of a guitar. I've never got the impression that customs were priced per time requirement in the same sense as breaking it down to an hourly rate- I think breaking it down in that way might make it easier to assign a value to it.



Varies waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much honestly.

If templates already exist for everything and hardware/electronics being used are all off-the-shelf, a basic custom guitar with no inlays or binding can be built with like 10 hours of labor over the course of a week. Add another several hours and few weeks for finishing and setup.

Unless someone is hand carving or machining parts, guitars really do not take that long to build.


----------



## HighGain510 (Nov 25, 2014)

You should also add that just because (insert popular/talented guitarist here) endorses a smaller company (or in some cases, even larger/production companies ) doesn't mean flock to that brand and flood them with orders.  That is a huge issue around here in particular, and I scratch my head when each new wave arises and then after the endorsee jumps ship (someone else offers them a better deal, more free guitars, etc.) everyone who hopped on their hype train is left miserable with either "meh" quality instruments or in a lot of cases, no instrument at all!  

Take endorsee commentary about the companies they represent with extreme caution; remember, they're in a business relationship with the company (free guitars/pickups, discounted guitars/pickups or possibly even straight cash might be coming their way in exchange for their public endorsement/reviews) so their end goal is to make that company more profitable by securing your money through orders for the company. They're not always concerned with your well-being, and it's unfortunate to see guys run to these random-luthier/company-of-the-month because someone they dig told them it was a good idea and then end up getting burned or unhappy with the piece of gear when (if? :lol) they finally get it. 

I've seen several guys both on here and on other forums that have endorsements make statements and then proceed to totally contradict themselves later when they jump ship to another brand of guitar, amp or pickup. That alone should be enough to tell you to ignore a lot of that stuff, yet for some strange reason a lot of folks are hit with the gear tractor beam as soon as certain guys tell them to go buy something.


----------



## tedtan (Nov 25, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Unless someone is hand carving or machining parts, guitars really do not take that long to build.



And if they're not carving by hand, you have to factor in the cost of their various equipment, from basic stuff up through CNC machines, too.


----------



## troyguitar (Nov 25, 2014)

tedtan said:


> And if they're not carving by hand, you have to factor in the cost of their various equipment, from basic stuff up through CNC machines, too.



Yeah, I was just giving the bottom of the scale.

You're looking at 10-20 hours bare minimum for a decent guitar, plus at least $500 in raw materials/hardware/electronics - again bare minimum pricing.

At an extremely low labor rate of say $25 per hour, you're looking at $1000 in cost for the most basic of cookie-cutter guitars not counting any tooling/setup/marketing/insurance/etc. types of costs.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 25, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> At an extremely low labor rate of say $25 per hour



This might sound bad, but I don't think $25/hr is "extremely low"- especially considering this is the type of work you do because you enjoy it.


----------



## JP Universe (Nov 25, 2014)

oracles said:


> I feel like this thread is long overdue. Speaking solely for myself here, it gets really tiring reading the ever growing list of threads "X builder ripped me off" when all the signs were there, just like we've seen time and time again. We see builders pop up overnight with pretty pictures of a BM clone or a metal-esque super strat, and everyone loses their minds over it. They build for a few Internet celebrities who post hype threads for discounts, and we watch people get burned, and despite the best efforts of those who are wiser, we still see the same thread "my custom from build X sucks" , "I never got my custom from builder Y" and somehow, people are surprised.
> 
> The basic principle here is simple. The established CS shops are in business, and have been in business for this long because they can deliver a solid product, and have the track record to prove it. Do they charge more than your fly by night, flavour of the month builder? Yes. The difference lies in security.
> 
> ...


 


Will leave the production semi custom post alone I think... As I said if my drunken self has saved someone multiple $$'s for a poetential custom purchaser it was worthwhile


----------



## Le Jeff (Nov 25, 2014)

TedEH said:


> This might sound bad, but I don't think $25/hr is "extremely low"- especially considering this is the type of work you do because you enjoy it.


 That does sound bad. $25/hr labor buys you an amateur, nothing more. Enjoying your work means you're more likely to be good at it - not that you're going to do it for a ridiculously low price.

On topic, threads like this, as well as those reflecting the experiences of most custom-shop customers, means that my custom guitar experience will begin and end with Carvin.

Sorry, but the kind of time you have to spend waiting for a small shop is absurd and the price is normally worse than absurd. If you're a wealthy collector type, then fine, I understand the custom scene. If you're the dude who wants to take his guitars out of the house then what's the point in buying custom? After around the $1500 mark you're entering the realm of diminishing returns, in my opinion.


----------



## troyguitar (Nov 25, 2014)

TedEH said:


> This might sound bad, but I don't think $25/hr is "extremely low"- especially considering this is the type of work you do because you enjoy it.



You're thinking of an individual's income, not a shop rate charged to a customer. If a shop is charging $25/hr, a person working there might be making $8/hr.

Go take your car to a shop, you will be charged $100+/hr and the mechanics will make a small fraction of that.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 25, 2014)

Not always true... I have been told my guitars are in the 2500-3k range and i only sell them for less then half that. Price doesnt dictate everything.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

Le Jeff said:


> That does sound bad. $25/hr labor buys you an amateur, nothing more.



I think the fact that there are as many horror stories coming from high priced builders is an indication that price and skill/experience are not correlated.

There's enough people willing to pay high prices that builders can charge what they want- because it's worth that much to the buyer- and I'm not yet convinced that there's any other reason for this model of pricing. You certainly could build the exact same instruments for less money, but why would you if people are willing to pay?

I'm not saying you're wrong- paying less will likely only get you someone who's valued their work lower because of a lack of experience or something- but that's not because the rate is unreasonable, but because the expectation has already been set that something of better quality _must _cost more money.



> You're thinking of an individual's income, not a shop rate charged to a customer.



As someone who doesn't do the actual work, or ever buy full-customs, but comes here to read that guitars are sometimes/often being made by a single person in their off-time, I think the line between an individual and a "shop" is sometimes blurred.

I'm going to agree that the beginning and end of "customs" for me will likely be Carvin. I think it would be great if more companies worked that way and produced good results- because I think it's evident that there's a gap between those who are willing to pay the big bucks for a full custom, and those who who want something better than production without selling their souls for it.

Edit: maybe the gap is an indication that production instruments are just really bad a lot of times. If off-the-shelf guitars weren't so often flawed, we might not have as many people looking for affordable alternatives.


----------



## Megaton_900 (Nov 26, 2014)

TedEH said:


> As someone who doesn't do the actual work, or ever buy full-customs, but comes here to read that guitars are sometimes/often being made by a single person in their off-time, I think the line between an individual and a "shop" is sometimes blurred.



I think the difference is shop has all the right tools and plenty of space to finish guitars on a schedule, to an accuracy limited the builders abilities. 
They also have maintenance/rent/power ect to pay.
Workshops aren't cheap even before labor costs, and you don't want some ape operating a many thousand $ machine.
Then come the business taxes and stuff like that (idk what else, not my thing).

An individual has some limitation in space and/or tools [otherwise its a private (work)shop] that slow things down considerably. 
Many of the builds here are over many months worth of off time, a totally different time frame to custom shops.

I have been finding out first hand that its not nearly as easy as it looks on youtube either, experience really matters.
Odds are that if there is a home build thread that looks good, they have a few builds under their belt already, and wasn't done on a tight schedule.
Experience means mistakes to learn from, which cost $money.

Either way, good results take experience.
Even Maccas pays experienced staff more.



I saw a a great luthier post somewhere about why so many small shops were going away. 
Might have been mr Ornsby, cant remember.
Went along the lines of "Being able to make guitars doesn't automatically mean you can run a business."
A sudden bust of orders results in a back log, which can mean rushing builds to meet overly enthusiastic schedules.
Internet fueled purchase frenzies can be the end of a small builder, and result in many disappointed customers.


On a side note, i feel the fascination with customs may be partly due to the lack of innovation in most production guitars.
Some major companies have been making basically the same guitars for 50+ years which are, personally, simply not appealing anymore.
Some dinky self turning tuners are hardly worth the 50yr wait. (talk about a south facing compass)
A larger and larger market share was simply not alive in those "glory years", so have a reduced emotional attachment to those style guitars.
Just an idea


----------



## shikamaru (Nov 26, 2014)

TedEH said:


> This might sound bad, but I don't think $25/hr is "extremely low"- especially considering this is the type of work you do because you enjoy it.



Its not because you enjoy your job that you dont need to eat. Heck, people earning 100k a year shouldnt be offended that a luthier would like to make its meat and not just survive instead of living well just because they do a job they enjoy doing. Why shouldnt they be able to afford a comfortable house, theyre not slaves. Last time when I saw a dude saying he didnt get an answer 14 hours after asking for a quote I litterally fell off my chair 

To me there is something contradictory in people wanting something made to measure and low costs. Even if you were to buy a suit made to measure or a wedding dress for women out there, it would cost a lot and nobody would find that abnormal, so why would guitars have to cost less than what they are charged for ?

There is some kind of consumerist approach thats nasty. As soon as youre not going mass-production prices start to climb and thats normal (economy of scale). So why should a custom guitar be sold less than, say an Ibanez TAM-100 or an M8M ? Heck, even when you see what Gibson charges for an LP, and when you see their factory tour, you cant expect a small luthier to charge less than twice the amount of money (so $4k looks actually very reasonable).

As far as what the actual instrument quality goes, I think there isnt a direct correlation between this and the cost of the instrument. I mean, of course, people are expecting top-notch quality when they spend thousands on a guitar, but what I mean is a $4000 custom will not necessarily be worse than a $6000 one. The difference might come from something else. Living in the UK or in Australia doesnt cost the same as living in Poland for instance, so it would make sense that they are charged more.

In any case, I think luthiers deserve more respect for their work, and I agree with JP Custom, people who dont have the patience, or dont know exactly what they want, or have a tight budget should just go production, I dont think luthiers need to deal with all that mess. For me, it means I indeed wont go that route for the years to come, and if I want something special, Ill just do it myself, if it fails I will only blame myself, but more importantly, Id rather be someone than having something, meaning the sense of achievement you get from doing something with your own two hands is so much more rewarding than the satisfaction of fulfilling the need to own another toy.


----------



## ormsby guitars (Nov 26, 2014)

hairychris said:


> no sane luthier in the UK will pay themselves only $700 for the amount of hours required to build a guitar unless it was a personal project/student build/etc.



You've got guys advertising their builds for that profit margin (or much less) right now on SS.

The issue is, to sell, a new guy (without experience) needs to undercut the market. Without a prior reputation, they need to undercut a lot, or boost specs a lot. Then, clients sign on...

After that, the new builder is under the pump. He hasnt built to deadlines before, just worked on 1-2 guitars at a time. All of a sudden there are a few more than that. He doesn't understand the TRUE cost of building a guitar... lacquer, sand paper, postage, router bits, etc... it all adds up, and furthermore has to start ordering more than a 1-2 items at a time (where does the money come from?). If a problem occurs, let's say in sourcing parts, OR, maybe the lacquer isnt going so well, he doesnt have the experience to rectify it, or even understand what went wrong. Times that by 4-5-6-7-10 guitars, with 4-5-6-7-10 clients all wondering what went wrong? Maybe the neighbours complained about the noise so he has to work around that? Maybe the humidity effected the stability of the timber, or finish? Maybe his compressor simply isnt up to be used all day running an orbital sander? There are literally hundreds of pitfalls.

Before you know it, the funds are depleted, he cant afford the pickups or cases, and then stories get made up to get the final payment just to keep the flow of work going (he got cocky and started selling more)... or, the next deposit he gets, pays for the parts for the last guitar.... so where do the funds come from for the next order? 

Easiest way out of the situation? Cut corners.

And because he's been selling, his own prior standard (still learning remember, he's new!) becomes the norm. Hopefully he's good, with high standards, but learning to build guitars, AND learning woodwork, AND learning finishing techniques, AND electronics, AND budgeting, AND dealing with customers...


----------



## shikamaru (Nov 26, 2014)

ormsby guitars said:


> the next deposit he gets, pays for the parts for the last guitar.... so where do the funds come from for the next order?



This looks like the start of a pyramid scheme, and it looks like it would be very hard to break that downward spiral&#8230; 

[EDIT] actually it would be a matrix scheme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_scheme


----------



## ormsby guitars (Nov 26, 2014)

Yep. I spoke with a luthier a few months ago that applied for my mentorship program. Eight years in business. 23 guitars on order. $600 in the bank. No parts to progress with builds, and more than half hadn't been started at all (no wood). Does he spend that $600 on parts, or living for two weeks? Now you can see why the 'waiting on cases/pickups' etc excuse is so common. His solution was to sell another spot.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> Not always true... I have been told my guitars are in the 2500-3k range and i only sell them for less then half that. Price doesnt dictate everything.



If they can sell for $2500-3k consistently, they're $2500-3k guitars. It doesn't really matter what one guy compares them to...


----------



## hairychris (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> Not always true... I have been told my guitars are in the 2500-3k range and i only sell them for less then half that. Price doesnt dictate everything.



Then you are doing it wrong. You need to bump the prices up.

If you are building as a sideline, for fun, then that's cool. If you are doing this as a full-time job then you're screwing yourself.

Can you let us know 2 things:

1) Approx average cost of materials
2) Approx # hours worked

Just interested to see what level you're working at (not skill as a builder, but as a business).


----------



## A_Alexandrov (Nov 26, 2014)

Very interesting topic. But raises a very important question:
WHAT makes a guitar cost 5-6K? or 3K more then other guitar?

Is it the hardware - No , I have seen guitars with BKP, hipshot or other high end stuff costing half as much as a guitar with seymor duncans and a decent TOM bridge. 

Is it the wood? This can be partially true, but look at a Skerv loaded with exotic woods and burls and again there are guitars costing twice as much made from simple maple and mahogany. So?

Maybe the sound? Well to me ass long as a guitar has all the notes and harmonics on the fretboard correct, the necessary break angles and has a decent hardware it will sound like a guitar. After that the sound is a personal preference and so is the looks.

The quality of the woodwork, shaping and finish? Yes but even in production guitars I have seen Gibsons with poor quality that cost twice as much as other guitar with better finish etc. Let alone that anyone with a good cnc and some 3d CAD skills can make a guitar with perfect shapes and routing. Take it to first decent paint shop and it will have a good finish too.

So please as a young builder I will be grateful if people that have or make guitars that cost 6k tell me - what makes it cost more then my motorcycle and 4K more than other guitars?


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

shikamaru said:


> Its not because you enjoy your job that you dont need to eat.



This is the same argument as saying musicians should never put their music out for free lest they starve to death. That's what day jobs are for. Not only is $25/h more than enough to live off of comfortably if you can make it regularly, but it's not the job of the consumer to be worried about whether or not the person who made their product is living within their means. I'm well aware of how "bad" it looks, but if you can't make a living off of something, do something else, or change your lifestyle to match. Not everyone gets to do the job they want.



> Then you are doing it wrong. You need to bump the prices up.



And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Someone decides to sell an instrument at what they've deemed an appropriate cost, and you tell them it's a mistake. Whether it's done as a so-called side project or a job doesn't make a difference, the product at the end stands for itself and should be valued accordingly. What's wrong with a well-built guitar at an affordable cost?

I'm still convinced that the only reason people defend the high prices so much is that if people start offering them for less, the perceived value of a custom goes down, and people will be less willing to pay the higher prices- and that's what dictates the cost up to a point: what people are willing to pay. 

To clarify: I'm not saying that customs aren't worth the high cost, or that higher quality/skill shouldn't be able to ask a higher price. Yes, I agree that dropping prices might devalue the work, which is bad, and I recognize that. Yes, it would make life more difficult for those who rely on it as a source of income. What I am arguing is that these instruments CAN theoretically be made for less- because past a certain point you're paying not for materials or time, but for more intangible "value", peace of mind, maybe for more of the builders effort or attention.


----------



## ormsby guitars (Nov 26, 2014)

A_Alexandrov said:


> Very interesting topic. But raises a very important question:
> WHAT makes a guitar cost 5-6K? or 3K more then other guitar?
> 
> Is it the hardware - No , I have seen guitars with BKP, hipshot or other high end stuff costing half as much as a guitar with seymor duncans and a decent TOM bridge.
> ...




As a builder that has sold instruments in the $10k+ range, and many more on order in the $6k+ range, I'll answer this:

Reputation
Quality of workmanship
Quality of materials 
Specifications 
Tonality
Playability
Communication
Design/aesthetics
Business mindset
Customer service
Marketing
Niche
Client confidence
Business confidence/liquidity
Terms of sale 
Business structure
Resale value 
Collectibility/exclusiveness 
Client referrals 
Your 'message'
Age of business

Some things you don't need. Some you must have. Some will make up for others. Some will hurt sales if excessive.


----------



## stevexc (Nov 26, 2014)

A_Alexandrov said:


> Very interesting topic. But raises a very important question:
> WHAT makes a guitar cost 5-6K? or 3K more then other guitar?
> 
> Is it the hardware - No , I have seen guitars with BKP, hipshot or other high end stuff costing half as much as a guitar with seymor duncans and a decent TOM bridge.
> ...



Perry gave you a great answer, but here's the stickied post that also addresses it.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...ons/113913-why-guitars-cost-what-they-do.html


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

You guys are assuming price based purely on reputation and popularity, not just skill. 
I have built around 100 guitars in the 9.5 years i have been a builder. I have gained the skill of making a high end custom guitar. But since i havnt been exposed all that much or reached the masses that really would pay for a high end custom guitar, i stuck selling my guitars for less than 1200$, even though they are without a doubt worth somewhere in the 2k range. Just because somebody doestn charge 4k for a guitar doesnt mean their work is crap.


----------



## stevexc (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> Just because somebody doestn charge 4k for a guitar doesnt mean their work is crap.



It doesn't mean 100% that it's crap, but it's a good indicator. There'll be more crap custom guitars being built at the $1-2000 range than the $3-4000 range.

It's a shitty catch 22, I'll fully admit that. A newer luthier can't charge $3-4000 because their reputation doesn't support it... but a $1-2000 guitar carries too much of a risk to actually check out that luthier so they can build a reputation. I think the online model just doesn't work super well for newer (or less well-known) luthiers until after they can get someone to vouch for them.

Oh, and I totally understand that you're not a "newer" luthier, by that I simply mean exactly what you said - under-exposed.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> i stuck selling my guitars for less than 1200$, even though they are without a doubt worth somewhere in the 2k range.



I would think that building 100 guitars would build you a reputation. Where are the people playing those guitars? Are they still playing them? Do they praise them online and in forums? Have you documented these builds and put them out there for people to see?

A guitar is not worth $2k just because you say it is, or because it matches a certain quality standard- it has to be worth that much to the buyer as well. It's pretty well known that almost any price point can net you a whole range of different quality levels.


----------



## ormsby guitars (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> You guys are assuming price based purely on reputation and popularity, not just skill.
> I have built around 100 guitars in the 9.5 years i have been a builder. I have gained the skill of making a high end custom guitar. But since i havnt been exposed all that much or reached the masses that really would pay for a high end custom guitar, i stuck selling my guitars for less than 1200$, even though they are without a doubt worth somewhere in the 2k range. Just because somebody doestn charge 4k for a guitar doesnt mean their work is crap.



You and I have been building for virtually the same period of time (I'm ahead by a year). So, looking at my list a few posts up, and assuming your quality is equal to mine, where do you see your business lacking in that list? Which points need work? Which two points would you consider the most important (other than the first three points)?


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

ormsby guitars said:


> You and I have been building for virtually the same period of time (I'm ahead by a year). So, looking at my list a few posts up, and assuming your quality is equal to mine, where do you see your business lacking in that list? Which points need work? Which two points would you consider the most important (other than the first three points)?



Obviously my quality is not quite where yours is yet. But you also have a way huger budget on tools and supplies. I do the best with what i can acquire. 

From the list you posted:


ormsby guitars said:


> As a builder that has sold instruments in the $10k+ range, and many more on order in the $6k+ range, I'll answer this:
> 
> Reputation
> Quality of workmanship
> ...


Reputation (not that i have a bad one, just that i am still more or less unknown,
Business structure
As well as lack of advertising. Of course in the long run all of the list can be improved, but considering the amount of work and improvement i have done in the past few years, you would think i would be further on. 
Then i get all this feedback from potential customers. Stuff like
"use a hipshot hardtail and i will take one instantly"
Make a few hardtail guitars, no luck on selling. 
I hear "make this in a 7 string and i will buy it right then"
Build a 7 string, say its 1600$ and everybody acts like it is 50,000$.
Now, i know it isnt all about money. but as much as I build and make it my priority, I am basically breaking even yearly, especially when it comes time to pay taxes. 

I mean, really, can anybody really say this guitar is not worth 1600$? I know you cant play it, but assume the pliability and sound matches the looks and craftsmanship. 
I am not posting these to advertise, just to plead my case.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

The pointier the guitar, the cheaper the price, generally speaking.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> I am not posting these to advertise, just to plead my case.



Honestly, I'd be posting this stuff everywhere. That guitar actually looks really awesome to me- I'm a big fan of explorers, the top is very attractive, and I can't spot any flaws in the pictures (although, I have no real eye for that, I'd have to try it in hand)- but to be honest, I've never heard of you before. If the instruments really are as good as they look, I don't doubt you could sell those for the prices you're asking if you spent some time/money/effort on marketing yourself. If you're not advertising, you're shooting yourself in the foot.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

narad said:


> The pointier the guitar, the cheaper the price, generally speaking.


And like i said, it is show the quality... Shape means nothing when it comes to quality or craftsmanship. 
I have built strats to almost that same spec and didnt change anything.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> Shape means nothing when it comes to quality or craftsmanship.



But it can mean a lot in terms of marketability, which is arguably as important. ...maybe more important.


----------



## The Hiryuu (Nov 26, 2014)

Prog_Freak said:


> Besides I'm not doing PRO gigs so there is no need for such a luxury item, besides will the average listener know the difference between the sounds of a Active Vs Passive PU after the effects are added, mixed, and Mastered ?
> I'm not knocking customs, I'm just facing the reality of MY situation and my choices.



The average listener may not, but you would. And being happy with your tone can boost your confidence. It's like a comfortable pair of underwear. Nobody else may see it, but that doesn't mean it isn't making a difference.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> And like i said, it is show the quality... Shape means nothing when it comes to quality or craftsmanship.



It means something to the people that buy it, and I can't think of one builder that does a bunch of super pointy metal guitars as their primary model and commands > $2500 prices, because the marketplace doesn't support it. On the flip side I can think of a ton of them that build around $1k-1.8k. Builders like Bond Instruments. From eye-balling it, I definitely wouldn't expect to be paying more than $1500 for that explorer-y thing, if that.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

narad said:


> . From eye-balling it, I definitely wouldn't expect to be paying more than $1500 for that explorer-y thing, if that.


And why is that?
Well i guess i have wasted 10 years of my life working on guitars every single day then, if this is what it means in the long run.


----------



## A_Alexandrov (Nov 26, 2014)

stevexc said:


> Perry gave you a great answer, but here's the stickied post that also addresses it.
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...ons/113913-why-guitars-cost-what-they-do.html



Yes, special thanks to Perry, all he sad was logical and informative and from the source.

About the stickied post I have read it some time ago and generally the statement "a guitar costs 5k$ because I have to make a decent living" sounds well... (other than that it was good educationg article)


And again it's all about marketing. 
Lets say the user Killemall1983 starts aggressive marketing campaign - pictures videos, reviews, a lie or two(joke) some celebrity musician plays it Kim Kardashian rubs her [email protected]@ on the guitar and then his guitars suddenly become 10 000$ but they will be the same guitars he now makes for 1500$

But that's it - market economy, it's not just guitars - every product is like that. I also design pc cases and sunglasses and I have seen this a lot.

At the end of the day a product costs just as much as someone is willing to pay for it. And sadly that's not always because of it's technical qualities.

So I agree that a guitar is a very special thing and a perfect handmade/ custom guitar is a very difficult thing to do, but the statement "If it doesn't cost more than your car and you wait for it 5 years than it's trash" is not always true. And even worse there are cases when a top dollar product is trash.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> And why is that?
> Well i guess i have wasted 10 years of my life working on guitars every single day then, if this is what it means in the long run.



I think just the way it's spec'd out and the ...I don't have an adjective for it... worn/satiny sort of finishing - same thing that puts me off on the Bond instruments. It's just that when I look at it I don't see anything that gets me excited - there's nothing wrong or nothing that looks like a cut corner, but it just doesn't give the impression of something put together well. 

Ultimately though you don't just sell your skill in building. It's your skill in designing, finishing, etc., making it an appealing purchase. Because an Ibanez premium series or a Schecter KM - they're not bad guitars either and they're mid teens in price too.

In contrast, this is my KL Explorer. You use figured woods as well, but photo vs. photo, this strikes me as quality. In hand, I can't find a single thing wrong with it (one of the 3 out of probably 20 boutique builders I'd say that about with experience at this point):



DSC_2131 by jasonnarad, on Flickr

I'm not saying you don't have the skill to do similar -- I have no idea. I'm just saying that with my own tastes, but still a love of hand-crafted guitars in general, what you're doing now doesn't seem that appealing / convey some faith sight-unseen that I'd be really impressed with the instrument. Super subjective, and I don't know how representative my opinion is of the masses, but I do hope there's some takeaway from expressing this that'd be of help to you.


----------



## tedtan (Nov 26, 2014)

^

I don't see anything in that pic that looks to be better quality than the guitar Killemall1983 posted. I mean, the builder even forgot to put binding at the end of the fingerboard.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

narad said:


> I think just the way it's spec'd out and the ...I don't have an adjective for it... worn/satiny sort of finishing - same thing that puts me off on the Bond instruments. It's just that when I look at it I don't see anything that gets me excited - there's nothing wrong or nothing that looks like a cut corner, but it just doesn't give the impression of something put together well.
> 
> Ultimately though you don't just sell your skill in building. It's your skill in designing, finishing, etc., making it an appealing purchase. Because an Ibanez premium series or a Schecter KM - they're not bad guitars either and they're mid teens in price too.
> 
> ...


From a visual point of view, literally the only thing different on that KL is the shape, gloss and binding. KL is at the top of the guitar building world and 99% of his guitars are oil/wax finish, nearly identical to the one I posted. 
Is this better? Because i know it is still going to get other criticism. Aside from the bridge, it is basically what everybody wants. Guess what? sold it for 500 bucks.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

tedtan said:


> ^
> 
> I don't see anything in that pic that looks to be better quality than the guitar Killemall1983 posted. I mean, the builder even forgot to put binding at the end of the fingerboard.



Ha, well different strokes for different folks. But there's an unevenness in the explorer bevels and in the backplate that definitely aren't on the KL. I know the gloss covers it up on mine, but I have satin too and can attest to it not being there. I don't know if that's because the woods used in Kill's guitars are more porous or if there wasn't enough sanding or what, but if I'm judging with my eyes, I don't want to see it. Vs. the lines on the KL being perfect as far as I can tell.

It's a bit of a stretch - I know KL is super pricey, but visually there's lots of $3k+ builders that I expect to be on about the same level in photos (not necessarily hands on playability)



Killemall1983 said:


> Is this better? Because i know it is still going to get other criticism. Aside from the bridge, it is basically what everybody wants. Guess what? sold it for 500 bucks.



I like that more - I don't see as much unevenness along the edges as in the explorer pics, but I do seem still seem to notice it to be honest (like first picture, at the point where the arm bevel transitions back to the upper horn). Not trying to dig up other criticisms but the top doesn't look like it has that much depth - is it a veneer? The burst is a bit sharp. I'd use a hannes if you want to sell to these guys - scares off too many guys.


----------



## Prophetable (Nov 26, 2014)

I'm not trying to kiss your ass here, but I want one of your explorers. If I were buying an explorer body you'd probably be on my short list of luthiers I'd contact. Also, I'd expect to pay the same for a pointy guitar that I would for a round one of similar craftsmanship and materials.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

narad said:


> I like that more - I don't see as much unevenness along the edges as in the explorer pics, but I do seem still seem to notice it to be honest (like first picture, at the point where the arm bevel transitions back to the upper horn). Not trying to dig up other criticisms but the top doesn't look like it has that much depth - is it a veneer? The burst is a bit sharp. I'd use a hannes if you want to sell to these guys - scares off too many guys.


See, this is part of my point. Everybody else i showed that picture to loved the shape and execution on that burst. Even other builders and a couple of painters. 

Either way, all this just confirms that I am never going to make it as a builder. Thanks for bringing it to reality. I had planned on stopping building in a few months, so this just makes it easier. 
I wish i had known this 10 years ago though. Would have saved half my lifetime chasing something that was pointless.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> See, this is part of my point. Everybody else i showed that picture to loved the shape and execution on that burst. Even other builders and a couple of painters.



It's not bad at all - I've just seen the gradual black burst on a similar BRJ and it looked killer. That is definitely the most subjective of the criticisms.


----------



## tedtan (Nov 26, 2014)

narad said:


> Ha, well different strokes for different folks. But there's an unevenness in the explorer bevels and in the backplate that definitely aren't on the KL. I know the gloss covers it up on mine, but I have satin too and can attest to it not being there. I don't know if that's because the woods used in Kill's guitars are more porous or if there wasn't enough sanding or what, but if I'm judging with my eyes, I don't want to see it. Vs. the lines on the KL being perfect as far as I can tell.



All I see in the bevels is the natural grain of the wood, which I would expect to see on a guitar with some type of penetrating finish (oil, etc.). The one you posted has binding and some type of hard finish that builds up on top of the wood (probably some type of urethane or lacquer), so it will appear smoother. Plus, if you choose a wood like mahogany, which is quite porous, you can use a filler to smooth out the grain/pores and then apply a colored hard finish to hide the filler, and the guitar is smoother with cleaner lines. So in this aspect, I think you just prefer the hard finish and binding over the rawer penetrating oil finish, at least over a porous wood like mahogany.

I also noticed the control cavity cover and the metal thing the strings go through on the back (what is this called, something like a ferrule plate?), but you didn't post a pic of your KL's control cavity cover, so I can't compare them. But making these fit the cavity dimension and flush with the back of the guitar is a relatively easy thing to fix.


----------



## stevexc (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> See, this is part of my point. Everybody else i showed that picture to loved the shape and execution on that burst. Even other builders and a couple of painters.
> 
> Either way, all this just confirms that I am never going to make it as a builder. Thanks for bringing it to reality. I had planned on stopping building in a few months, so this just makes it easier.
> I wish i had known this 10 years ago though. Would have saved half my lifetime chasing something that was pointless.



"Everyone" saying they liked it and one person saying it's good but not to his taste is enough to "confirm that [you'll] never make it as a builder"? That's odd to say the least.

Knowing that it's a hand-built instrument, it definitely looks like a guitar that, given the right builder reputation, could hit that $3000 mark no problem. There's some issues with what spec choices you've made that may make SSO members hesitant to buy it (EMGs, Tune-o-matic, rosewood fretboard, pickup rings) but they aren't inherently bad, just unpopular here (and ironically mostly things I prefer).

I personally wouldn't buy it, but that's only because it doesn't align with my taste. Both instruments do seem to be clsoe to the level of quality that I'd want a $3000 guitar at - the only real issues I'm seeing are some gaps in the cavity cover and string-thru plate on the Explorer, and the top edge of the bevel on the superstrat looking a little rough. They don't look badly built judging from the pictures.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

Honestly, between the two explorers, I'd prefer the one Killemall1983 posted. I say that because the one narad posted looks extremely close to an Ltd explorer (I have an ex400 as a reference point). Ltd isn't bad, but it's... I dunno, it has no character. It just doesn't look "custom" to me, it looks like it came off a factory floor and I could buy one just like it for $600-$800 or something. The finish is generic, the pickups and bridge are generic, the shape is generic. That first one on the other hand has a unique shape (which I like), a unique top (which I like), pickups that you don't find on every second guitar (which I like), a finish that shows off the wood (good), etc.

I don't doubt doubt that both are good guitars, but if you consider "quality" to be equal, I'd value the first one more.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> See, this is part of my point. Everybody else i showed that picture to loved the shape and execution on that burst. Even other builders and a couple of painters.
> 
> Either way, all this just confirms that I am never going to make it as a builder. Thanks for bringing it to reality. I had planned on stopping building in a few months, so this just makes it easier.
> I wish i had known this 10 years ago though. Would have saved half my lifetime chasing something that was pointless.



If anything is going to damage your sales, it's this very comment. If you value your work, you have to present yourself with confidence, otherwise prospective buyers won't trust you.


----------



## TauSigmaNova (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall- I remember seeing your work on UG a while ago and have loved all your builds from shape to wood selection and the likes. I'm not hard to impress but I love your work and I could definitely see myself paying a stack and a half for something like that, at least from an aesthetical point.


----------



## narad (Nov 26, 2014)

TedEH said:


> I say that because the one narad posted looks extremely close to an Ltd explorer (I have an ex400 as a reference point). Ltd isn't bad, but it's... I dunno, it has no character. It just doesn't look "custom" to me, it looks like it came off a factory floor and I could buy one just like it for $600-$800 or something. The finish is generic, the pickups and bridge are generic, the shape is generic. That first one on the other hand has a unique shape (which I like), a unique top (which I like), pickups that you don't find on every second guitar (which I like), a finish that shows off the wood (good), etc.



I'm a bit confused. A KL looks nothing like an ex400 - it looks a lot like a _Gibson_ or _ESP MX_ explorer. It has an olive ash burl top that's so rare Ken had enough for two guitars and said he'd probably never see such wood again. Both guitars have generic-looking black pickups. If you can point me to the factory floor where you can get this, please let me know:



DSC_2658 by jasonnarad, on Flickr

I mean, I know some guys will prefer one or the other, but from your rationale I'm not sure if you're trolling me?


----------



## Purelojik (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> And why is that?
> Well i guess i have wasted 10 years of my life working on guitars every single day then, if this is what it means in the long run.



honestly with that kinda attitude you're kinda defeating yourself. Just study up on marketing. See what others do and do likewise. Crowd source for info. 

Its true if you want to sell something you have to cater a bit to the people you intend to sell it to. After all, unless its a hobby, you gotta build to sell. 

perhaps look at what sells the most and make a design reminiscent of it. dont copy otherwise you'll start piling on the neg rep. but make it your own and see what happens. make a facebook page and get some nice HQ shots of areas people typically look for errors( neck pocket, pup routes, cover, finish, nut etc.) just go look in any of the trainwreck threads and theres all the things you should never do in a business or building. 

also, take one of Ormsby's classes in marketing for luthiers. He's probably only got awesome info because he basically breathes what he preaches. Good luck dude.


----------



## patsanger (Nov 26, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> From a visual point of view, literally the only thing different on that KL is the shape, gloss and binding. KL is at the top of the guitar building world and 99% of his guitars are oil/wax finish, nearly identical to the one I posted.
> Is this better? Because i know it is still going to get other criticism. Aside from the bridge, it is basically what everybody wants. Guess what? sold it for 500 bucks.



For me it's still too pointy - the edges on the top are hard and the horns come to points. I do find the burst to be hard, especially on that top - there is so much going on with the wood naturally, the burst feels like it is too much.

Again, just my point of view. I like where you are going, like the explorer body is cool (not for me though) but the straight headstock at the low side throws me off.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

Purelojik said:


> prhaps look at what sells the most and make a design reminiscent of it. dont copy otherwise you'll start piling on the neg rep. but make it your own and see what happens. make a facebook page and get some nice HQ shots of areas people typically look for errors( neck pocket, pup routes, cover, finish, nut etc.) just go look in any of the trainwreck threads and theres all the things you should never do in a business or building.


I have done this for over 3 years.


----------



## sehnomatic (Nov 26, 2014)

@Killemall1983

Set up a decent photo area.

Even the most questionable builders (acacia, roter) hit the ground running with a promise of great guitars with only good pictures.


----------



## ormsby guitars (Nov 26, 2014)

Kill, you need to brand your business for starters. Someone sees a photo of your stuff, they have ZERO idea who made it. I only had a quick look, but I didnt see a logo at all. I did an anonymous test last year using the same style font, but a different name, and people still knew it was one of mine.

Go read the list I put up yesterday. You need to excel in all areas.

Treat it like a business, and it will be. At the moment, I read your facebook as a hobby guy doing what he loves. I know you're after more, but you come across as just building for fun. The "about" section says it all. Think about how you present yourself to people with cash in their pocket.

Never ever offer up incomplete guitars. 

Get good photos. A black sheet is all it takes. Think about angles, grain, and WHEN a good time to post an 'in progress' photo is.

How did you come up with LEF, and why? Is there something more suitable for a brand?

It's not easy. But the rewards are there. Look at Sully... 12 months ago he was building after work a few hours a week, and sundays. Now with a bit of help in the right direction, he's full time, with higher pricing, and quit his day job. He had some chops, just didnt quite know how to take it to the next level.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

ormsby guitars said:


> Kill, you need to brand your business for starters. Someone sees a photo of your stuff, they have ZERO idea who made it. I only had a quick look, but I didnt see a logo at all. I did an anonymous test last year using the same style font, but a different name, and people still knew it was one of mine.
> 
> Go read the list I put up yesterday. You need to excel in all areas.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. 
LEF is my initials. I lack creativity to think of anything that wasnt already taken as some other brand. Cant use my last name since it is already a guitar brand. 
I didnt realize i came off as a hobby builder. It definitely isnt a hobby for me, but it might as well be financially. 
I thought my pictures were pretty good and represented well. I guess that was wrong to assume. 
Thanks for the reply, Perry. If i had gone about it right years ago, maybe i would have had a better chance. Since i am right at the end of my building career (ridiculous to say at age 25) there isnt much i can do to excel in just a few months left of building.


----------



## patsanger (Nov 26, 2014)

I am interested to find out why you are walking away now? (if it's something you want to share)


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 26, 2014)

patsanger said:


> I am interested to find out why you are walking away now? (if it's something you want to share)



I currently live with my parents, and the Extra garage my dad built is the shop that has all the machinery. 
I have to move out within the next few months. With a full time job and not having the shop where i will be living, i wont be able to work on them anymore.


----------



## KnightroExpress (Nov 26, 2014)

For what it's worth, your explorers are the only ones I'm actually a fan of. I sincerely hope that you'll be able to reverse your fortunes and get your work into the hands of people who will appreciate it.


----------



## Renkenstein (Nov 27, 2014)

As usual, I think Perry is right. You have no branding, and branding is key. A logo(amongst a myriad of finer details) is what separates a hobby build from a professional build. 

I've noticed a complete lack of inlays on your builds. That's another thing. People think custom guitar, and elaborate inlay immediately comes to mind. With today's music diversity, custom can mean fanned frets and extended scales, but there's always requests for aesthetic embellishments in a custom build. 

I know you're operating on a starving artist budget, but I'd suggest using some drop tops in the future. Your guitars look great, but veneer has always implied lower quality. It may be the most beautiful veneer in the world, but it's still going to have that stigma attached. 

I'm rooting for you, dude. I've admired your builds for quite a while, and you obviously have talent for this.


----------



## ormsby guitars (Nov 27, 2014)

Kill, Surely there is a community woodworking facility near you. I started out like that.


----------



## jahosy (Nov 27, 2014)

Furthermore, you're only 25. From what i've seen from your works they look on par if not better than some of luthiers listed by the OP. Perhaps just a little push will get you past the next level. 

Take whatever experiences you've gathered over the last 10 yrs and hope you'll start again when the opportunities arise in the future. 

Good luck!


----------



## TedEH (Nov 27, 2014)

narad said:


> I'm a bit confused. A KL looks nothing like an ex400



Going from only the one picture that was posted, the shape was hard to determine, but it was clearly not an original take on explorer shapes. The finish/gloss/coating/whatever and shape around the neck joint looks pretty similar to my explorer. Obviously it's not exactly the same, but this guitar would offer little more to me than what I already have, outside of build quality and a fancy top. I stand by what I said- Hyperbole aside, I'm sure it's a great guitar, but it doesn't look special to me. For that reason, I prefer the other. Doesn't matter to me if everyone disagrees, it's just my unprofessional opinion. YMMV, , etc.


----------



## TedEH (Nov 27, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> I lack creativity



I'm going to reiterate: Don't talk about yourself in these terms publicly because it's damaging your image.


----------



## yingmin (Nov 27, 2014)

Killemall, to add to what others have said, I definitely think you're underselling yourself, both to yourself and to potential customers. You mentioned that you sold that superstrat for $500, but did you ever think that by accepting that price for it, you may have set a bad precedent? If you're willing to take $500 for a guitar that you made yourself, that almost certainly cost more than that just for the materials to build it, then you are tacitly admitting that that's all it's worth.


----------



## A_Alexandrov (Nov 27, 2014)

Sadly pictures don't tell everything.

They can't tell:
How good is the fretwork. How low can you go with the action without buzzing.
How your neck feels, and how it responds to changes in humidity etc.
How well it holds tune.
Grounding, wiring issues and unwanted noises.
Most importantly - set up and if every note and harmonic on the fb nails the green light on the tuner. This especially is the case when I see someone hand saw an 8string fanned fret bord.
Now tight a note and chord is. Most of the lower quality guitars when you hit a chord, especially with some gain, it starts to wander.
Note sustain and decay.
Balance.

These are the things to me that define a quality instrument. And in the custom world - that it's made for YOU. When I made the skerv style guitar for my friend he came and tried the neck like 10 times before I carved it exactly the way he likes it. 

Other than that with the right choice of woods a cnc machine will make the woodwork of the instrument faster and better than any human can.


----------



## canuck brian (Nov 27, 2014)

Seriously Killemall1983 - you make really great looking guitars (i can't give opinions on playability because i've never played one) but like other guys have said - you're lacking a logo. I watched you start around the same time I did. 

It sounds shallow at first, but guys want a logo/brand to associate with. I'm bad enough with Ibanez guitars that I'll immediately walk away from any Ibanez without the swoosh on the headstock. I bought an ESP on the basis that the guitar was an ESP and I wanted a guitar with the block ESP logo. How many pics do you see of guys posting headshots of themselves with the headstock of their guitar? Marketing and branding is absolutely key to your success. 

I could announce that I'm making Blackmachine clones with the Blackmachine headstock and I'm certain I'd get more orders in a week than I've received in the last year and I say that having already received multiple requests to do that.

Your market is basically on this website and another website. I haven't seen much of your work posted here though. You could make the best guitars in existence, but if people don't know about them, you're not going to sell them. You're 25. Honestly, you've already achieved what guys twice your age sometimes WISH they could have done. I didn't even start building until I was 28 and now at 37, my brand and my guitars are just getting their legs. You've got plenty of time to come back to it and take another shot at it.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks for the replies everybody. Again, if had known most of this earlier i would have been way better off by now. 



canuck brian said:


> Your market is basically on this website and another website. I haven't seen much of your work posted here though. You could make the best guitars in existence, but if people don't know about them, you're not going to sell them. You're 25. Honestly, you've already achieved what guys twice your age sometimes WISH they could have done. I didn't even start building until I was 28 and now at 37, my brand and my guitars are just getting their legs. You've got plenty of time to come back to it and take another shot at it.


I havnt posted much here because when i did i got banned for a week because i didnt know you had to pay to be a dealer if you sell the guitars you make. Or else I would have posted all of my recent in progress builds.


----------



## canuck brian (Nov 27, 2014)

Killemall1983 said:


> Thanks for the replies everybody. Again, if had known most of this earlier i would have been way better off by now.
> 
> 
> I havnt posted much here because when i did i got banned for a week because i didnt know you had to pay to be a dealer if you sell the guitars you make. Or else I would have posted all of my recent in progress builds.



I've never once paid to be a dealer here. I donated to the website years ago, but that was before I got relegated to the "dealer" area.


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 27, 2014)

canuck brian said:


> I've never once paid to be a dealer here. I donated to the website years ago, but that was before I got relegated to the "dealer" area.


I dunno then man. Shortly after i had joined and posted a few in progress builds i came back and it said i was banned for a week for being a commercial builder. Then i even posted in this luthier section to see what the rules were, and i was told you had to contribute or be a dealer. Unless they just thought i was spam for some reason.


----------



## TuffyKohler (Nov 27, 2014)

I ran across this on another forum.

seemed applicable to this discussion somewhat, if not just interesting. 

obviously these guys are not a one man shop, but the ideas are solid. 

Living Machines: The Art and Craft Behind Collings Electric Guitars on Vimeo


----------



## Killemall1983 (Nov 28, 2014)

canuck brian said:


> I've never once paid to be a dealer here. I donated to the website years ago, but that was before I got relegated to the "dealer" area.


Looking at it now, i am completely blocked from posting there. Plus the subscription page also states that you need to pay the dealer fee to post in the dealer section.


----------



## metaldoggie (Dec 2, 2014)

Kill, that is a big shame - I have been following your builds here and on FB.

As Perry said - you lack a "brand", something that has your style to it that speaks to your name and building style.
I don't believe you lack the creativity.....you just need to apply the same creativity that you design guitars to something else.
I love the style of your Explorers, they have a unique twist and if marketed correctly you could be setting a trend. I have heard several successful photographers say that they put in the hard work and developed their own style, and eventually it caught on and people began copying it. It took time but they got successful in being unique.
I could be wrong but it kind of sounds like your situation has got you down and things seem hopeless.
If your heart isn't in it then you should find something else, but if you really want to be doing it, then you will find a way to keep going, even if you take a break for a little bit to recharge.


----------



## JuliusJahn (Dec 3, 2014)

I love how this went from "never buy custom under 5k" to "Kill'em you need to sell for more!" Just good vibes/advice all around. 

I've been talking to Kill as well lately and said that price=perceived quality. Just look at Starbucks! They wouldn't exist today if the founder didn't raise the prices [I know there's guys like Wayne Henderson who build top of the line stuff for 1500$ but he's also retired and has Clapton playing his guitar...]

I guess I'm on the other side of the spectrum as Killem - 5 years experience, under a dozen guitars done, and I managed to sell 3 slots in 2 hours after only paying 25$ to advertise and a dealers account here. One person had to drop out for personal reasons, and that was then picked up in less than an hour by an even more serious customer. I am really fortunate for it all and appreciate all the support I've gotten (after 4 years of just showing family and friends) so far but I don't understand how Killem doesn't have the same success as me (if not more).

I guess I've been lucky enough to be able to focus 100% of my time into the art of luthierie from initial guitar designs, website management, customer relations, marketing/advertisement, and constant research and prototyping without a year-long, full time job to intervene.
I don't believe in horoscopes, but with the luck/success I've been having this year there must be something higher up pulling the strings!  (Or I'm just doing something right )

After 3 years of not a single interest (also not advertising and still in high school) I managed to find 3 serious people in one evening, and currently have a wait list group of ~12 people who plan on getting something or another in 2015 once financially feasible, Killem should be able to find a seller for a 7 string that costs about the same as my base price...

Anyways, that's it for my midnight ramblings...


----------



## Killemall1983 (Dec 6, 2014)

metaldoggie said:


> Kill, that is a big shame - I have been following your builds here and on FB.
> 
> As Perry said - you lack a "brand", something that has your style to it that speaks to your name and building style.
> I don't believe you lack the creativity.....you just need to apply the same creativity that you design guitars to something else.
> ...


Thanks for the advice man. 
I have taken breaks before. I had thought about quitting a long time ago, but decided since i had invested so much in it i shouldnt waste all of that. So i kept building. 
ITs just hard at the end of the day when i am working as hard as i can and making great guitars and at the end of the day I almost break even, especially after paying taxes ever 6 months. But i'll see what i can do in the next few months before i have to move.


----------



## JP Universe (Aug 30, 2019)

Necro bumping. Oh how the custom world has changed!

I don’t post much anymore but browse daily. You get perspective from looking back almost 5 years ago like you know the guitar world. Here is how we stand... (see page 2)

Mayones - Seems to be world class still I guess, Highly reputable. Never played one..... But without issue.

Ran - Done, my bad. At least I said they weren’t on Mayones level. Saved someone I hope.

Skervesen - too hard on them from my initial review. They’ve been solid and as good as the Hypemachine I received initially so I was wrong on that one.

Blackmachine - More fun reading threads these days.

Daemoness - Seems to be still killing it. All pictures, style etc amazing. I’ve never played one so I stand in the same spot 

Siggery - RIP

KxK - damn, hadn’t seen anything for ages. The 2 I owned were killer!!
Buy it used.

Blackwater - I saved someone

Thorn - Went on to be master builder for Fender. I hit this one out of the park 

Decibel - Nailed it

Oni - Still killing it. Needs to send me another guitar for testing 

Ormsby - Interesting one. Guitar played amazing but numerous finish flaws upfront on a 7k custom... Hyped!! He Posted about my concerns on his Facebook group which got back to me. Cult like, approach with caution.

Ethereal - nothing else to convince me

Strictly 7 - read up 

Strandberg - On point! Love my m2m and Ola though. Class.


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF (Sep 3, 2019)

I was wondering what happened to you! The list has been helpful, prevented some broken hearts, and massaged others. I still have potential business so I won't name names, but I will say I wish this thread happened before BRJ. Dangerous bringing that up, and I suffered little in comparison to others. But damn when you talk to the guy on the phone more than once and still get screwed over, it stands out. I'll probably have a follow up down the road. 

The names in my sig block, I've had good success with. KxK of course, are incredibly good but you're only going to find them used. I hope Rob can make more guitars someday but I wish him well regardless. Daemoness made my best guitar, hands down, and utterly flawless. Long waits, but they are coming down, and there isn't an experience like it (it's not for everyone). I'm on board for more. Ormsby I've been a fan of and have great dealings with them. I know some have not, YMMV, but for me it's been excellent and the guitars both custom and production were top notch to perfect. Above all patience is the key. I'm saying accept shortfalls and delays, but you are kidding yourself if you think you won't and that your money alone is enough to guarantee perfection. For me, I have a high bend and flex tolerance and things have just worked. Nothing works perfectly though, and there is zero wrong with production guitars and killer instruments can be made by the custom shops of many of these brands. I think this thread is essential to educate against likely failure. 

I've avoided several with literally one second guess before money went down: Blackwater, Decibal, Strictly 7. Failed with BRJ, but that was prior to this thread. Collective experience/reading from others has warranted me to also avoid Lionheart, Legator, and Kiesel. I've seen all three make killer guitars, and killer horror stories.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 3, 2019)

That ormsby Facebook group is the weirdest cult.


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF (Sep 3, 2019)

Double post? Double post.


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF (Sep 3, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> That ormsby Facebook group is the weirdest cult.



Yeah? Well your Mother...

Is a saint, I'm sure. It's not as rabid/unforgiving as the Kiesel group page. That page takes criticism like making a wrong comment on Salon.com...


----------

