# Polyrhythms and Polymeters. Need Help.



## Ntbillie (Dec 7, 2010)

I've been listening to alotta Meshuggah lately. And I came to know that they use Math Metal techniques. Quite popularly known for using Polyrhythms and Polymeters. I searched everywhere. Saw a few videos on Youtube. I kinda have the idea now of what they are. But I'm still confused. If any of You guys who have an idea of what they are can just give Me a mini lesson or something I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.


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## Customisbetter (Dec 7, 2010)

Extreme mini session.

Tap out three 4 beat bars with your right hand while tapping two 6 beat bars with your left.

IF they start and end at the same time, Boom, you win.


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## RaceCar (Dec 7, 2010)

A lot of Meshuggah riffs have the drums playing in 4/4 (that is the cymbal and snare drum play in a consistant 4/4) while the bass drum and guitars are playing something completely different (different time signature; 3/4, maybe 7/8, or 9/8 etc..) 

An example would be the breakdown in Future Breed Machine (the double bass part in the middle of the song). The snare and hi hat cymbals are playing in 4/4, however the bass drums and guitar/bass is playing in 7/4 until they eventually overlap, or start on the same beat again.

Now, how to actually figure out how they're counting and what they're counting can sometimes be totally insane...that's the hard part. That's what makes them Meshuggah. Even though I can count and understand polyrhythms, Meshuggah's get so complex that they just become intimidating and I just learn to sit back and enjoy the chaos.


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## Customisbetter (Dec 7, 2010)

sorry my previous comment made 0 sense. Just edited it.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 7, 2010)

The vast majority of Meshuggah is in 4/4, they just weave in and out of syncopation.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 7, 2010)

Custom, good mini lesson, I can't do it though 

Polyrhythms, not so bad. Polymeter however, brutal hell imo. I guess they are sort of the same thing, but I can deal with polyrhythms, never tried with polymeter. Not my style of music so I have left i be.


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## beneharris (Dec 7, 2010)

RaceCar said:


> An example would be the breakdown in Future Breed Machine (the double bass part in the middle of the song). The snare and hi hat cymbals are playing in 4/4, however the bass drums and guitar/bass is playing in 7/4 until they eventually overlap, or start on the same beat again.


yep, its amazing that a technique so complex can be so simple to explain on paper.

basically you play two diffierent time signatures, and eventually they land on the same beat, and the process is repeated


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## bostjan (Dec 7, 2010)

Polymeters are different instruments playing at different tempos and eventually overlapping. I don't hear those too much, to be honest.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 7, 2010)

A good example of a polymeter is Kashmir by Led Zeppelin.


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## Knossos (Dec 7, 2010)

Think of it this way, theres 2 runners on a bigass oval track starting at the same time.

One makes a lap exactly every 4 minutes, the other exactly every 3.

So they meet back at the start at the same time after 12 minutes. 

In that time, 4 minute man has done 3 laps, but 3 minute man has done 4.

So the simplest 3/4 over 4/4 polyrhythm takes 12 bars of 4/4. Simples.


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## Necris (Dec 7, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Polymeters are different instruments playing at different tempos and eventually overlapping. I don't hear those too much, to be honest.


 Poly-meter is basically playing in 2 or more separate meters. Meshuggah do that often. 

I think what you're describing is poly-tempo which can work in a similar way.

A well known and clear example of a 3-over-2 poly-rhythm is the beginning of carol of the bells. 4-over-3 and 3-over-2 are the easiest poly-rhythms to learn and memorize.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Dec 7, 2010)

It doesn't have to be different instruments... I can for example play guitar, tapping with right hand in 4 and triplets with left hand. It's just fundamentally about the rhythm.

About the terminology, well, they differ a lot. Some people like to consider this kind of appereance (triplets vs. fourths) as polyrhythms, some as polymeters.

To be honest, if you play 8th triplets in tempo of 120, it's the same as playing 16th notes in tempo of 150. However, there is a reason why quintols and such were invented, to make writing easier. So talking of poly-tempo or -meter is pretty equal, as every tempo is related to each other in a way or another.

Here's an example of polymetric/rhytmic/tempoic/whatever drum beat:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11989434/a.mid

Hi-hat is going in four, snare is going 2nd and 4th, kick is going triplets.


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## Necris (Dec 7, 2010)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> It doesn't have to be different instruments... I can for example play guitar, tapping with right hand in 4 and triplets with left hand. It's just fundamentally about the rhythm.


 Because its how I normally use it, it's just easier to visualise for me when I say 2 instruments, so I do the same explaining it. My original post has been fixed.

While two tempos can and do eventually line back up with each-other like 2 separate meters it seems confusing to use the two terms interchangeably when first learning the concepts, so I prefer to call them by their separate names for simplicity's sake. Like anything once you have a good grasp of the idea you can go more in depth.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 7, 2010)

Polyrhythm - two or more different rhythms going on at the same time. In one hand, tap out 1 (2) 3 4, and in the other, do (1) &2 (3) & (4), where parentheses represent rests.

Cross-rhythm - a kind of polyrhythm that involves two or more conflicting divisions of the meter. The simplest is two beats against three. In one hand, do 1 2 3, and in the other, do 1 (2) & (3). This is the "Carol of the Bells" rhythm mentioned above. These are easiest to do as something against 2, like 5:2 - 1 2 3 4 5, 1 (2) (3) & (4) (5)

Polymeter - two or more distinct meters that do not occupy the same amount of space. Typically, they will share the same beat. Not always, however. Think of it as 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4, etc. with another instrument playing 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3, with the duration between the beats is the same, but the downbeats are not consistent. This is the Led Zeppelin example mentioned above. If you look at where the beats fall, you get a cycle thing going on:


```
Part 1: _---_---_---_---_---_---_---_---
Part 2: _--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--
```

(Where the underscores match up in both parts is the repetition of the cycle.)


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## Ntbillie (Dec 8, 2010)

@ Knossos: You Sir have the simplest and most understandable explanation of Polyrhythms here. Really helped alot..Thanks alot mann!


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## Ntbillie (Dec 8, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Polyrhythm - two or more different rhythms going on at the same time. In one hand, tap out 1 (2) 3 4, and in the other, do (1) &2 (3) & (4), where parentheses represent rests.
> 
> Cross-rhythm - a kind of polyrhythm that involves two or more conflicting divisions of the meter. The simplest is two beats against three. In one hand, do 1 2 3, and in the other, do 1 (2) & (3). This is the "Carol of the Bells" rhythm mentioned above. These are easiest to do as something against 2, like 5:2 - 1 2 3 4 5, 1 (2) (3) & (4) (5)
> 
> ...




Your explanation also helped Me get a clear understanding of Polyrhythms. Thanks mann..


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## Gemmeadia (Feb 7, 2011)

Customisbetter said:


> Extreme mini session.
> 
> Tap out three 4 beat bars with your right hand while tapping two 6 beat bars with your left.
> 
> IF they start and end at the same time, Boom, you win.


This made my brain fart haha once i try tapping the 6 with the left hand, my right hand automatically taps faster! I guess i should take up drumming


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## AliceLG (Feb 8, 2011)

Having written some polyrhythm stuff for drums a la Meshuggah I can say that keeping it simple is kind of missing the point hehe. In the most basic form, as it has already been described in previous posts, you can do a 4/4 on hats and snare and riff your feet away to a 7/8, 6/4, 9/8, 17/16 progression until they come together again.

On Meshuggah specifically, I found this paper that explains how their polyrhythms work. I wouldn't go beyond the part when the author starts analyzing the polyrhythms in "I", I thought that was too much, but go ahead and have a look, here's the link:

Meshuggah Paper

The PDF is a little bit on the hefty side


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## nabster98 (Aug 30, 2011)

so would a 7/8 over 4/4 rhythm take 28 bars?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 31, 2011)

Depends on what you mean. This is a cross rhythm (otherwise known as a polyrhythm, although not all polyrhythms are cross-rhythmic):







This is a 7/8:4/4 polymeter:






If it were 7/4:4/4, then it would take twice as many measures.


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## stuglue (Aug 31, 2011)

Here's the mos basic polyrhythm, the crotch triplet. What you are going to do tap quarter notes with your foot, 1,2,3,4, now with your hand tap triplets to each quarter note, 1,2,3,1,2,3 etc now what I want you to do is on quarter note1 only tap 1 &3, dont tap 2, now on quarter note 2 I want you to not tap notes 1 and 3 of those sets of triplets. If you've done it right it should feel like they are going against each other


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## stuglue (Aug 31, 2011)

A great example of crotchet triplets is the beginning of Killing In The Name Of by Rage Against The Machine


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