# True Temperament / Evertune 7's



## nyxzz (Mar 9, 2015)

Hey guys,

So I've recently decided that the only way I will ever be able to sanely play guitar is by getting an axe with True Temperament frets and an Evertune bridge. I have the gift/curse of perfect pitch (or something really close to it) and no matter what I try everything I play sounds SLIGHTLY out of tune. This has been driving me nuts for years and I just now recently learned about temperament and the way frets work, so I'm thankful I'm not just crazy, which leads me into my point -- Does anyone have any idea of a custom builder who would build this, or even better, a guitar that comes with both, preferably a 7? I can't seem to find too much information on the subject. I know VGS has a guitar that has both TT frets and an Evertune but I can't seem to find anyone who sells them. Any ideas?


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## jephjacques (Mar 9, 2015)

I think you can get TT frets on a Mayones, IIRC Misha from Periphery has a Regius with TT and an Evertune.


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## ramses (Mar 9, 2015)

The only reliable business I've seen offering both is Mayones.


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## nyxzz (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanks guys, that's extremely helpful. I kind of wonder if it would be that much less to just get a prestige and then have someone install both the TT frets and Evertune separately. I'm sure that would not be cheap at all, and would require sending the guitar off to multiple places, but I'm thinking a Mayo with both features would be pretty expensive. Thanks for the info!


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## nyxzz (Mar 9, 2015)

holy shit, the retail price for that Regius 6 MM 4Ever TT Misha has is like...11k USD.


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## Vhyle (Mar 9, 2015)

Yeah, TT is often an extremely expensive option. It's a cool idea, but hardly practical.

While we're on the subject, can one do vibrato on a TT guitar?


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## nyxzz (Mar 9, 2015)

Yeah but I didnt think it was like blackmachine expensive. I believe you can, I think I've seen Matthias Eklundh do so. Then again that man is a god, so maybe he can do things that arent normally possible


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## ramses (Mar 9, 2015)

nyxzz said:


> Yeah but I didnt think it was like blackmachine expensive. I believe you can, I think I've seen Matthias Eklundh do so. Then again that man is a god, so maybe he can do things that arent normally possible



TT frets do not negatively affect your playing.

The evertune bridge may affect your playing. To do bends with that bridge, you have to carefully set it up, otherwise it will try to correct whenever you bend.


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## bostjan (Mar 9, 2015)

Better get your luthier on. For 11kUSD, you could get a CNC laser table and cut the slots yourself. Of course, you'd need to be decent at AutoCAD.

Half kidding.

I think that the well-temperaments are pretty cool, but, to be honest with you, the only guitar that you can play perfectly in tune is a fretless one. Different temperaments are just different approximations at just intonation. If you dig it for what it is, that's one thing, but if you are expecting it to be something it is not, then you will be disappointed.


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## HighGain510 (Mar 9, 2015)

I just looked and a fully-tricked out Strandberg Varberg can be ordered loaded with BKPs and a True Temperament 25.5" scale fretboard for $4700. No Evertune option obviously, but the point there is that the TT upcharge is only $1K. If you're claiming you absolutely "need" TT and Evertune, it's not that expensive for the work itself, it's just not going to be $500 for the whole thing.


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## OmegaSlayer (Mar 9, 2015)

I wonder how much sense Evertune and True Temperament frets have together.
I don't think Evertune will enhance True Temperament much, then I might be completely off.


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## BearOnGuitar (Mar 9, 2015)

Be sure to check with TTTexas.com who are also official VGS Guitar dealers for the US. They might have a VGS Radioactive TD-Pro in stock, which comes with both an EverTune and TT frets. Like others have said Mayones could be a great option too if the budget allows it.

Otherwise pretty much every luthier should easily be able to install an EverTune bridge, as we provide all necessary information such as instructions, detailed drawings, CAD routing files, etc... on our site.

If I recall correctly the TT fret installation is a lot cheaper if the fretboard doesn't need to be removed, for example by sending the neck only with a blank fretboard (also works for neck-throughs) and have TT install the frets and send back the neck. I'm not affiliated with TT so best is to check with them about it directly.



ramses said:


> The evertune bridge may affect your playing. To do bends with that bridge, you have to carefully set it up, otherwise it will try to correct whenever you bend.



About the whole bending with an EverTune thing, it doesn't really feel much different compared to bending strings on a regular guitar. I have set up mine to have a very slight buffer that prevents the strings from going sharp when hitting them hard but increase pitch when bending almost instantly. It's an awesome setup especially for low tunings and only takes a day or two to get used to in the beginning, if at all. Once you bend the string past the point where the EverTune balances out the tension the bend feels just like on a regular guitar. And how close the string is to that point can easily be dialed in within just 2-3 seconds, on each string individually. The only people we ever had complain about bending didn't know how to use the EverTune (or didn't read their manual) and dismissed it after having tried it out, falsely assuming that it would always balance out bends to some point or even cancelling them out completely, which is just not the case. Sometimes guitars hanging in stores can be setup to balance bends out completely because the person who used it before was playing around with it and didn't return the strings to what we call the "bendstop", leaving a false impression upon the person trying it out next.

If you care about keeping your strings in tune to the cent while recording, touring or even playing in the bedroom then I don't think it's too much to ask for having people learn to understand the EverTune, especially considering how easy the setup really is. If anyone is interested our manual can be downloaded from here: http://www.evertune.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/UserManual04.pdf

I know not everyone is able to try out an EverTune first before ordering one, which is why I like to leave some info about it. I hope it is appreciated.



OmegaSlayer said:


> I wonder how much sense Evertune and True Temperament frets have together.
> I don't think Evertune will enhance True Temperament much, then I might be completely off.



By itself the EverTune keeps string in tune perfectly, you can pull on the strings and they will always stay in tune to the cent. It also increases intonation noticeably across the fretboard, to the point where it's not needed to re-tune for certain chords anymore. In combination with the TT frets you will have an incredibly well intonated and in-tune sounding guitar that never goes out of tune.

If you have any other questions about it feel free to send me a PM or mail me directly at "herbert at evertune dot com".

Best regards,
Herbert


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## ixlramp (Mar 9, 2015)

What bostjan said. Is your perfect pitch noticing deviation of single notes from equal temperament or is it noticing the mistuning of chords? 12ET is actually up to 18 cents out of tune from pure harmony (Just Intonation) and JI fretting can only play in one key, no modulation. A perfectly tuned JI major third is 3.86 semitones, a JI minor third 3.16 semitones. In 12ET only fourths, fifths, major seconds and minor sevenths have near-perfect harmony (within 4 cents). Even when playing melody your ear may be expecting the JI pitches in sequence.
With TT system you are locked into standard tuning with a narrow range of gauges. One TT system is 'Well Temperament' as used by J.S.Bach, Mozart etc. which is up to 10 cents away from 12ET. You want the less extreme system.
I will post soon in the theory subforum how to experience JI chords on a normal guitar, try that to see if JI is what you are searching for, perhaps start learning about JI and microtonality. Without understanding the basics of JI you will never truly understand what harmony actually is. It is amazing that modern musicians mostly do not understand JI and that it is not taught in academia, that's how out of touch we are with the fundamental knowledge of harmony.
12ET was adopted to gain free 12-key modulation at the expense of true harmony, classical Indian music would never do such a thing because they value perfect pitches.


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## bostjan (Mar 9, 2015)

ixlramp said:


> What bostjan said. Is your perfect pitch noticing deviation of single notes from equal temperament or is it noticing the mistuning of chords? 12ET is actually up to 18 cents out of tune from pure harmony (Just Intonation) and JI fretting can only play in one key, no modulation. A perfectly tuned JI major third is 3.86 semitones, a JI minor third 3.16 semitones. In 12ET only fourths, fifths, major seconds and minor sevenths have near-perfect harmony (within 4 cents). Even when playing melody your ear may be expecting the JI pitches in sequence.
> With TT system you are locked into standard tuning with a narrow range of gauges. One TT system is 'Well Temperament' as used by J.S.Bach, Mozart etc. which is up to 10 cents away from 12ET. You want the less extreme system.
> I will post soon in the theory subforum how to experience JI chords on a normal guitar, try that to see if JI is what you are searching for, perhaps start learning about JI and microtonality. Without understanding the basics of JI you will never truly understand what harmony actually is. It is amazing that modern musicians mostly do not understand JI and that it is not taught in academia, that's how out of touch we are with the fundamental knowledge of harmony.
> 12ET was adopted to gain free 12-key modulation at the expense of true harmony, classical Indian music would never do such a thing because they value perfect pitches.





Also, 12-EDO/12-ET sounds exactly the same in all twelve keys. TT sounds different in each key, some keys sound better than others, and none of them are JI. Helmholtz did some study on the effects of TT on different keys that was quite interesting. Some people mistakenly apply his study to modern 12-EDO, which is misattributed.

If you fret your guitar like a sitar (a variation of JI), you can play in JI in one key, with one melody string.

Anyway, to reiterate, TT is cool, but if it doesn't solve your actual problem, is it worth a couple grand extra? That's your call.


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## dimitrio (Mar 9, 2015)

to topicstarter - did you try out maybe some other guitars? I noticed that sometimes for pretty unknown reasons one guitar with similar specs intonates just way better then the other one... but still indeed other factors, like longer scale and thinner strings may also help (if you are talking of chord intonation across the fretboard). needless to say scale length should be perfectly adjusted on the bridge, truss road set up, strings very low, etc. I also prefer guitar with floyd with installed tremolo stop - that helps a lot to keep perfect tuning no matter the playing technique. Almost can't play on guitars without floyd for that reasons...


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## Obstsalat (Mar 9, 2015)

TT frets will not osund ANY different from traditional frets. Yes, the intonation might be more exact but when your grip is just a LITTLE bit harder than holding the string down on the fret or SLIGHTLY bend the string, you lose the effect.

TT frets make literally zero difference

my tip: dont go for TT frets and save yourself some $$


the reason why the stuff you play sounds slightly off is because the guitar is tuned well-tempered, which always sounds out of tune (any piano player will confirm this)

EDIT: Oh and both the standart fret distance as well as the TT frets are well tempered, so that wouldn't even fix the problem. evertune will make your life a little easier with tuning your guitar tho


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## Durero (Mar 9, 2015)

BearOnGuitar said:


> By itself the EverTune keeps string in tune perfectly, you can pull on the strings and they will always stay in tune to the cent. It also increases intonation noticeably across the fretboard, to the point where it's not needed to re-tune for certain chords anymore. In combination with the TT frets you will have an incredibly well intonated and in-tune sounding guitar that never goes out of tune.



Clearly an Evertune bridge affects intonation in a positive way by eliminating sharpness caused by the small increases in string tension when fretting notes.

What's not clear to me is whether or not the True Temperament company understands this. There should be noticeably less wiggle in the TT fret shapes on an Evertune equipped instrument. They cannot just apply whatever measurement results they've obtained from non-Evertune guitars and build the same wiggly fret shapes. 

Until I hear this issue addressed specifically by TT it seems to me that guitars with both TT frets and Evertune bridges may have worse intonation performance than guitars with just one of either technology.

We should have intonation measurement tables comparing the performance of just TT, just Evertune, and both TT & Evertune together.


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## Obstsalat (Mar 9, 2015)

the ONLY way to achieve truly 100% correct intonation is to get a fretless guitar and actually intonating instead of fretting the string.

because even TT frets are well tempered, which will sound out of tune anyways


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## ixlramp (Mar 9, 2015)

As far as i know TT have several systems, some with slightly straighter frets to get closer to 12ET, the more extreme ones are the historical 'Well Temperament' which deviates from 12ET by up to 8 cents to give each key of a scale it's own 'key colour' or character, while still allowing free modulation through all 12 keys
http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html#hist3
http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html#hist4


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## Michael T (Mar 9, 2015)

ixlramp said:


> What bostjan said. Is your perfect pitch noticing deviation of single notes from equal temperament or is it noticing the mistuning of chords? 12ET is actually up to 18 cents out of tune from pure harmony (Just Intonation) and JI fretting can only play in one key, no modulation. A perfectly tuned JI major third is 3.86 semitones, a JI minor third 3.16 semitones. In 12ET only fourths, fifths, major seconds and minor sevenths have near-perfect harmony (within 4 cents). Even when playing melody your ear may be expecting the JI pitches in sequence.
> With TT system you are locked into standard tuning with a narrow range of gauges. One TT system is 'Well Temperament' as used by J.S.Bach, Mozart etc. which is up to 10 cents away from 12ET. You want the less extreme system.



OK I'm a complete idiot, my head hurts just trying to understand that. I'm self taught and learn by ear. I know no theory or have any musical "knowledge" I just play what sounds good to me. I am on a way lower level than you guys for sure


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## Given To Fly (Mar 10, 2015)

ixlramp said:


> As far as i know TT have several systems, some with slightly straighter frets to get closer to 12ET, the more extreme ones are the historical 'Well Temperament' which deviates from 12ET by up to 8 cents to give each key of a scale it's own 'key colour' or character, while still allowing free modulation through all 12 keys
> An Introduction to Historical Tunings
> An Introduction to Historical Tunings



 This may be the first time Kyle Gann has been mentioned on SSO. We are branching out.


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## Solodini (Mar 10, 2015)

I'm with the fretless brigade on this. If your ear is sensitive to deviations of pitch, go fretless and intonate each note as you need it, rather than facing difficulties with different keys. A friend of mine defretted his guitar and attached a sheet of metal over the fretboard, which will last longer than wood with roundwound strings and sounds more like frets than the normal fretboard would.


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## nyxzz (Mar 10, 2015)

HighGain510 said:


> I just looked and a fully-tricked out Strandberg Varberg can be ordered loaded with BKPs and a True Temperament 25.5" scale fretboard for $4700. No Evertune option obviously, but the point there is that the TT upcharge is only $1K. If you're claiming you absolutely "need" TT and Evertune, it's not that expensive for the work itself, it's just not going to be $500 for the whole thing.



I obviously don't "need" it, it's a total first world problem. It's just something that has bugged me for a long time that I was curious if it was even in the range of possibility without being crazy expensive...


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## nyxzz (Mar 10, 2015)

dimitrio said:


> to topicstarter - did you try out maybe some other guitars? I noticed that sometimes for pretty unknown reasons one guitar with similar specs intonates just way better then the other one... but still indeed other factors, like longer scale and thinner strings may also help (if you are talking of chord intonation across the fretboard). needless to say scale length should be perfectly adjusted on the bridge, truss road set up, strings very low, etc. I also prefer guitar with floyd with installed tremolo stop - that helps a lot to keep perfect tuning no matter the playing technique. Almost can't play on guitars without floyd for that reasons...



I've gone through like 12 guitars in the past 6-8 months. Right now my RG752FX is working out the best for me. The biggest issue for me is chords being in tune, that just always irks me. I'm thinking I'm going to try for a longer scale again, or hopefully get in on an Ormsby GTR and see how a multiscale works for me. It might be time to give floyds another chance too.


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## nyxzz (Mar 10, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the wealth of information, I've got a lot to look into now.


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## ixlramp (Mar 10, 2015)

Chords being the problem suggests JI might be what you're after. If you try playing chords on a 12ET pitch perfect synth and they still sound wrong then JI is what your ears are wanting to hear.
The problem i have with the 12ET TT system (not the Well Temperament system) is that the perfect fret spacing for 12ET is actually a standard guitar with regularly spaced frets. The 12ET TT system is complex expensive overkill and tries to get closer to 12ET with an irregular fret spacing, which seems ridiculous even if it is partially successful, and also locks you into one tuning and one set of gauges.
If JI is not what you're after i would recommend an evertune only, a strobe tuner (i use this https://www.turbo-tuner.com/), more flexible strings (thinner plain strings like a .015 instead of a stiff .017) and a proper intonation technique: check every fret with a tuner and minimise the errors. The nut is often out of tune with the frets (which puts the frets out of tune when tuning the guitar by playing the open strings, it's better to tune by playing the 1st or 2nd fret) so use a compensated nut or file your own. Also a longer scale will allow thinner more flexible strings, better intonation and more harmonicity.


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## leonardo7 (Mar 10, 2015)

TT frets can only be done by TT in Sweden so any guitars would have to be shipped out to them. I wonder if that is a part of why they are so expensive. Also, Mayones can do TT frets for a $650 up charge to the ferd wagner med-jumbo nickel frets they offer at no cost, and Evertune is around $470 upgrade to the AMB bridge that they offer at no cost


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## Durero (Mar 10, 2015)

That's no longer true. They now offer pre-cut fretboards to builders as well as licensing for builders to cut their own.

True Temperament fretting system


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## BearOnGuitar (Mar 11, 2015)

dimitrio said:


> I noticed that sometimes for pretty unknown reasons one guitar with similar specs intonates just way better then the other one... but still indeed other factors, like longer scale and thinner strings may also help (if you are talking of chord intonation across the fretboard).



This can be due to factors like how well the nut is made, the nut slots are cut, how precise the fret slots are cut, how well the frets leveled and having the bridge positioned correctly on the guitar. This will all affect how well a guitar intonates with a proper setup.

Longer scale lengths really only help minimally with keeping low tunings stable in my opinion. They might be more stable in the sense that when you pick harder the note might boom in and out of tune less, but the strings go out of tune just like with any other scale length.



Durero said:


> Clearly an Evertune bridge affects intonation in a positive way by eliminating sharpness caused by the small increases in string tension when fretting notes.
> 
> What's not clear to me is whether or not the True Temperament company understands this. There should be noticeably less wiggle in the TT fret shapes on an Evertune equipped instrument. They cannot just apply whatever measurement results they've obtained from non-Evertune guitars and build the same wiggly fret shapes.
> 
> ...



We have wondered about this too. However having watched videos of both TT guitars with and without EverTune, I feel that the ones with EverTune sound even slightly better, at least to me.



leonardo7 said:


> TT frets can only be done by TT in Sweden so any guitars would have to be shipped out to them.



Now TT frets can also be installed in the US in Texas by Home


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## nyxzz (Mar 12, 2015)

ixlramp said:


> Chords being the problem suggests JI might be what you're after. If you try playing chords on a 12ET pitch perfect synth and they still sound wrong then JI is what your ears are wanting to hear.
> The problem i have with the 12ET TT system (not the Well Temperament system) is that the perfect fret spacing for 12ET is actually a standard guitar with regularly spaced frets. The 12ET TT system is complex expensive overkill and tries to get closer to 12ET with an irregular fret spacing, which seems ridiculous even if it is partially successful, and also locks you into one tuning and one set of gauges.
> If JI is not what you're after i would recommend an evertune only, a strobe tuner (i use this https://www.turbo-tuner.com/), more flexible strings (thinner plain strings like a .015 instead of a stiff .017) and a proper intonation technique: check every fret with a tuner and minimise the errors. The nut is often out of tune with the frets (which puts the frets out of tune when tuning the guitar by playing the open strings, it's better to tune by playing the 1st or 2nd fret) so use a compensated nut or file your own. Also a longer scale will allow thinner more flexible strings, better intonation and more harmonicity.



Took your advice - JI chords sound right to me. Time to pick up a strobe tuner (been meaning to for awhile). I already play light strings so hopefully that will help to. Thanks for the info!


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## ixlramp (Mar 12, 2015)

Here's how to hear JI intervals on a normal guitar:

The JI major third, called '5/4', at 386 cents, is actually the 5th harmonic itself.
Tune any 2 strings 4 semitones apart.
Play the 4th harmonic on the higher and the 5th harmonic on the lower, let them ring together, they should be slightly out of tune.
While these ring together slightly detune the higher string (by only 1/6th of a semitone) until the harmonics are in unison.
Now the 2 open strings are a JI major third. It may sound simultaneously out-of-tune but also more consonant.

JI minor third, 6/5, 316 cents.
Start with 2 strings 3 semitones apart, then as above but tune the 5th H of higher to the 6th H of lower.

JI septimal subminor third, 7/6, 267 cents.
This is the 'blue' minor third often used in blues and jazz, only acheived by bending up the major second.
Use 2 strings 3 semitones apart, then tune 6th H of higher to 7th H of lower.

JI septimal subminor seventh, 7/4, 969 cents, the 7th harmonic.
This is the 'blue' minor seventh often used in blues and jazz, only acheived by bending up the major sixth.
Use 2 strings 10 semitones apart (2 fourths) then tune 4th H of higher to 7th H of lower.

The name of JI intervals is actually the frequency ratio and also the two harmonics that are in unison.

My thread here has a weird thirds tuning with JI tuned open notes that allows playing simple JI scales and chords on a normal guitar:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2530509-post6.html
You'll need a spare guitar and the set of custom gauges detailed in the first post. There are certain limitations but it will give you a good taste of JI.


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## bostjan (Mar 13, 2015)

ixlramp said:


> JI minor seventh, 7/4, 969 cents, the 7th harmonic.
> This is the 'blue' minor seventh often used in blues and jazz, only acheived by bending up the major sixth.
> Use 2 strings 10 semitones apart (2 fourths) then 4th H of higher to 7th H of lower.



Not saying you are wrong, but JI's m7 is generally considered to be 1017.6 cents or 9:5. There are many interpretations, though. To me, 9:5 sounds better than 7:4 in minor chords.


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## ixlramp (Mar 13, 2015)

Oh yeah  i mean JI subminor seventh for 7/4.
The 9/5 is a JI fifth above a JI minor third so indeed will sound more consonant in a minor seventh chord.


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