# Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker



## Ralyks

So THAT went different from what I expected. Two things:

1. That fucking laugh at the end. Oh. Shit.

2. THE COOL SIDE OF THE PILLOW IS BACK! BILLY DEE, BABY!!!


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## StevenC

This is the dumbest thing in the history of dumb things. Disney are killing cinema.


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## Ralyks

StevenC said:


> This is the dumbest thing in the history of dumb things. Disney are killing cinema.



Considering at this point they basically OWN cinema...


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## TedEH

For every person who preemptively decides the movie is garbage for inane reasons and without watching it, I'm going to enjoy it that much more.


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## MFB

This one is actually eluding me, because there's so very little actually shown in, it's just like, The Adventures of Rey in Various Places?

I'll need a full trailer for this one vs. just whatever that was


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## Drew

TedEH said:


> For every person who preemptively decides the movie is garbage for inane reasons and without watching it, I'm going to enjoy it that much more.


Pretty much this, as well.  

Not a ton to go on, but the name seems an odd choice, for the movie AFTER Luke (more or less) dies. Sort of implies they're going to do an about face and confirm Rey is a Skywalker, after all. I don't love that decision - I like where the Last Jedi was going - but whatever, I'll be watching this when it comes out, for sure. 

If nothing else, it almost HAS to be better than Episode I.


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## KnightBrolaire

meh it couldn't possibly be worse than Last Jedi. That was a fucking trainwreck of a film.


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## Drew

You're crazy, Last Jedi was awesome.  It just wasn't the movie YOU expected it to be.


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## Xaios

TedEH said:


> For every person who preemptively decides the movie is garbage for inane reasons and without watching it, I'm going to enjoy it that much more.


Are you basically my spirit animal at this point?

I'm not really a defender of The Last Jedi, but I definitely don't loathe it either. The plot, which is definitely an important element of any film, was quite weak, and the character actions were outright bizarre at times, but not without redeeming qualities. I basically think of it similarly to Skyfall: dumb plot and too full of self-referential fan service scenes, but also an absolutely gorgeous piece of kinetic visual art that I'm perfectly capable of enjoying on that level. It also bears mentioning that I actually loved what they did with Luke, regardless of what Mark Hamill says, because it touches on something that Star Wars rarely examines: that the fall of a Jedi hero does not necessarily lead them to the dark side, but sometimes simply leads to a desire to leave it all behind, like a normal human being (I'm most definitely not an authority on any Star Wars EU material, but the only character I recall that underwent a similar journey was Jolee Bindo from KotOR). That, I believe is the overarching theme of The Last Jedi, that Jedi and Sith, hero and villain alike, are all human, and like any human, even the greatest among us can fail, and even the lowest among us can rise to the occasion.


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## Drew

Xaios said:


> It also bears mentioning that I actually loved what they did with Luke, regardless of what Mark Hamill says, because it touches on something that Star Wars rarely examines: that the fall of a Jedi hero does not necessarily lead them to the dark side, but sometimes simply leads to a desire to leave it all behind, like a normal human being (I'm most definitely not an authority on any Star Wars EU material, but the only character I recall that underwent a similar journey was Jolee Bindo from KotOR). That, I believe is the overarching theme of The Last Jedi, that Jedi and Sith, hero and villain alike, are all human, and like any human, even the greatest among us can fail, and even the lowest among us can rise to the occasion.


I'll take it a step further, and I WILL defend it. Though, first, I hadn't really thought about your point about Luke here, and I like it. 

The Force Awakens was a fun movie and I enjoyed watching it quite a lot, and IMO it did a decent enough job setting up The Last Jedi and, evidently, The Rise of Skywalker. But, from a plot standpoint... It was basically Episode VI, which itself was Episode IV. How many times do we as Star Wars viewers need to blow up a bigger Death Star? I left that one having enjoyed it thoroughly, but prepared for VII and IX to essentially break no new ground for the franchise, and I remember a lot of reviewers raising that criticism too, that it pretty much rehashed a lot of the earlier movies. New Vader, new Luke, new Emperor, new droids, new Death Star, wash, rinse, repeat. 

The Last Jedi pulled a 180. It strongly suggested Rey _wasn't_ a Skywalker, it humanized Kylo Ren and set up a potential Kylo/Rey storyline, it killed off Snope, and rather than taking out another bigger, badder Death Star it had the resistance beaten back, defeated, and fleeing, but choosing to live to fight another day rather than die in a blaze of glory. The whole story ark to the gambling planet was important to the storyline precisely _because_ it ended in failure - for me the major theme of the movie was failure is ok as long as it's a step to something else, whereas dying a hero is always a dead end. If Rey is in fact _not_ a Skywalker, that opens up the storyline significantly to something bigger than a family drama, and the slave kids at the end using the force kind of underlines that point and (IMO) sets the series up for an even bigger final. 

Idunno. A lot of the criticisms I've seen leveled at the Last Jedi seem to be based on the fact that it _wasn't_ the same story as the one before it, which seems a little unfair when the Force Awakens took some flack for being too derivative of the original trilogy. I think it's just one of these things where no matter _what_ the next installment did, someone was going to be upset, compounded by a whole bunch of dudes getting all butt-hurt that there were an awful lot of strong, empowered women doing things other than being showily heroic, while a lot of the "heroic" characters ended up fucking things up and needing to be bailed out by chicks.

I still think Rogue One is my favorite of the new movies, but IMO Last Jedi was better than Force Awakens, and Force Awakens may have been predictable but at least the bar was so low after the prequels that I was fuckin' relieved that it wasn't Jar Jar Binks all over again. 

My biggest issue with the final trilogy so far is it's not entirely clear that there was a cohesive storyline given to the two different directors, and they may be working at cross purposes. TBD though.


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## DudeManBrother

Everyone knows there was only 3 good Star Wars movies. The Han Solo movie, The Last Jedi, and the one with Jar Jar Binks.


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## Drew

DudeManBrother said:


> Everyone knows there was only 3 good Star Wars movies. The Han Solo movie, The Last Jedi, and the one with Jar Jar Binks.


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## Seabeast2000

Drew said:


> You're crazy, Last Jedi was awesome.  It just wasn't the movie YOU expected it to be.



I wouldnt' call it a movie.


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## wankerness

Xaios said:


> Are you basically my spirit animal at this point?
> 
> I'm not really a defender of The Last Jedi, but I definitely don't loathe it either. The plot, which is definitely an important element of any film, was quite weak, and the character actions were outright bizarre at times, but not without redeeming qualities. I basically think of it similarly to Skyfall: dumb plot and too full of self-referential fan service scenes, but also an absolutely gorgeous piece of kinetic visual art that I'm perfectly capable of enjoying on that level. It also bears mentioning that I actually loved what they did with Luke, regardless of what Mark Hamill says, because it touches on something that Star Wars rarely examines: that the fall of a Jedi hero does not necessarily lead them to the dark side, but sometimes simply leads to a desire to leave it all behind, like a normal human being (I'm most definitely not an authority on any Star Wars EU material, but the only character I recall that underwent a similar journey was Jolee Bindo from KotOR). That, I believe is the overarching theme of The Last Jedi, that Jedi and Sith, hero and villain alike, are all human, and like any human, even the greatest among us can fail, and even the lowest among us can rise to the occasion.



I like that Skyfall comparison, even though I kind of hate that movie. It sure did LOOK great!



DudeManBrother said:


> Everyone knows there was only 3 good Star Wars movies. The Han Solo movie, The Last Jedi, and the one with Jar Jar Binks.



C'mon dudeman, TLJ haters like the Solo movie, that's an impossible joke opinion! 

I'm uh...kind of with Ted on this. HOWEVER - a ton of the fanboy screeching about this trailer I'm seeing is from people who are furious that it's "walking back" TLJ, so it's kind of the OTHER half of the mewling manbabies that make up SW fandom. They killed Snoke so JJ had to put Palpatine in instead, Rey's not actually nobody, Kylo rebuilds his mask, Luke's a main character, etc.

It's funny that they're drawing all this from a puny little trailer and very possibly none of that stuff is true. The only thing on their rage list that we know for sure is that Palpatine makes an appearance in some way, shape or form. I hope he doesn't have robot legs.

If they undo all of TLJ's machinations, I agree that it will be very stupid. However, I'm apparently the only person left on the planet that likes both TFA and TLJ, since if you are cool you trash TFA for being "exactly the same" as ANH, and you can trash TLJ for raping your childhood OR for being "exactly the same" as ESB.

(I like TFA quite a bit more than TLJ, but the latter has more visual style for sure)


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## Seabeast2000

TedEH said:


> For every person who preemptively decides the movie is garbage for inane reasons and without watching it, I'm going to enjoy it that much more.




I agree, every SW movie these days has its own thing. Everything post-Lucas anyway. I'll go see it at the bijou and judge then.


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## Lorcan Ward

Since Ryan Johnson completely disregarded JJ Abrams plot lines from the first film I wonder if he's just done the same thing to finish the character arcs he originally laid out.


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## Metropolis

If Palpatine is gonna show up, then I'm gonna be so happy. Just because I like the story behind him.


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## Ralyks

If Palpatine DOESNT appear after that trailer, I'm going to be quite upset.

Last Jedi was a bit disjointed, but I enjoyed. Except one major flaw: you can't have a (mainline) Star Wars film without a real lightsaber duel. It just feels so wrong.


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## diagrammatiks

Last Jedi was awful. 

I don’t care how bad this movie might be. If they retcon all of that garbage film I’ll love this forever.


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## c7spheres

Nothing will ever be as good as the original 3 movies, kinda like Metallica will never be the same as they once were. I'm waiting to see this and how they all fit together, but I haven't hated any of the movies so far except The Last Jedi, but there is still hope if it all makes sense in sequence after this film. People can't keep expecting greater things. The greatest stuff for Star Wars already exists and "they" are doing a really good job considering that they didn't invent any of this. It's like someone trying to be the next Jimi Hendrix, it just ain't gonna happen, even though it could still be pretty great. I hope this movie really ties it all together and closes out this series with dignity so they can all be watched enjoyably in sequence. I really hated clone wars when it came out and then after several years and revisiting it and seeing how the look of the film and way it was done really does make sense in the overall scheme of the entire series, I actually like it now, except Jarjar. I hope The Last Jedi grows on me this way.


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## SD83

I have a bad feeling about this...
I really hope they don't bring Luke back. And don't make Rey a Skywalker. To me, besides the visuals, Lukes story was by far the best part of TLJ and Rey being a nobody was a bit of a relief as well. The one movie that left me really disappointed so far was TFA (not technically a bad movie, but one that had already be done, and better), and I'm glad they didn't go in that direction (although there is a lot wrong with TLJ, though some of that might be due to me being a massive Extended Universe nerd).
As for my thoughts on the trailer: I'd say the "Skywalker" refers to Kylo Ren. As for Palpatine and the wreck of the Deathstar (?)... not sure what to make of it. In hindsight, his "death" in VI was a bit weak, seeing how powerful he was supposed to be and that he was falling into an endless abyss, but was otherwise unharmed. And there was a lot of time between that and the explosion, at least enough for Luke to get Vader to a hangar and all that if I remember correctly. So, if Palpatine made it in some form or another, I'm fine with that if it's done well. What I'm not fine with is if that is a part of either of the 2 Death Stars. Both of them exploded rather violently, and even if they hadn't, there is no way debris from either can crash in such good condition onto anything that has an atmosphere and some degree of gravity.


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## _MonSTeR_

I loved the original trilogy, I'm of the age where as a kid I had the toys, the posters, the pyjamas, the lunchbox and little matching thermos flask, everything. The original trilogy had it's faults (not many of them, but it does have them) but I can't think of a more perfect trilogy, a more epic story arc, etc. etc.

They started to unravel it in The Phantom Menace, despite how cool Darth Maul was, and to be honest I think it's all been downhill from there. This is effectively the last chance for Disney to appease the old fans, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day. Only "box office" works and I'm sure by putting both "Star Wars" and "Skywalker" in the title it'll do just fine 

That said, I got goosebumps watching the trailer, I love the blue Star Wars logo and I'm excited to see where it's all going to end. I've read some brilliant fan-theories so far and some of them would be amazing, unfortunately, probably better than what we'll get in the movie


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## Chiba666

The Emperor is back and I bet he is not in a good mood. In fact I'm guessing he has a massive hangover and he cant find the brufen or a lucoasade sport for love nor money. Let alone a bacon sarnie.


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## diagrammatiks

Last Jedi. 

Movie - above average 
Star Wars movie average 
Middle part of a trilogy - fucking abject failure. 

Look if you are the middle picture of a big established franchise it’s your job to complete the narrative threads in a way that make sense. You don’t do that by shutting all over the previous movie. 

If this next movie can just retcon everything and pay off all the ground work from the first movie it will be awesome. Maybe retroactively make the second movie amazing. 

Also the wrong Asian actress died.


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## _MonSTeR_

diagrammatiks said:


> Last Jedi.
> 
> Movie - above average
> Star Wars movie average
> Middle part of a trilogy - fucking abject failure.
> 
> Look if you are the middle picture of a big established franchise it’s your job to complete the narrative threads in a way that make sense. You don’t do that by shutting all over the previous movie.
> 
> If this next movie can just retcon everything and pay off all the ground work from the first movie it will be awesome. Maybe retroactively make the second movie amazing.



I agree with everything here, apart from the possibility of retrospectively making The Last Jedi amazing. That's just not going to happen, ever.


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## gnoll

Last Jedi was abysmally bad. This looks like it'll be terrible too.


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## Lorcan Ward

I don't see how they could fix what the second film did. JJ Abrams had arcs drawn out for all the characters but Rian Johnson put them in the bin and wrote his own to be the opposite of what was being setup so this third film could be an absolute mess. Giving a director free reign for a middle film wasn't a bright idea.


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## wankerness

_MonSTeR_ said:


> They started to unravel it in The Phantom Menace, despite how cool Darth Maul was, and to be honest I think it's all been downhill from there.



You think the Phantom Menace is the best of the 7 sequels/prequels?!



> This is effectively the last chance for Disney to appease the old fans, but it doesn't matter at the end of the day. Only "box office" works and I'm sure by putting both "Star Wars" and "Skywalker" in the title it'll do just fine



Why is it effectively the last chance? It’s not like they’re going to stop making these things, even if it bombs harder than Solo.


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## wankerness

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't see how they could fix what the second film did. JJ Abrams had arcs drawn out for all the characters but Rian Johnson put them in the bin and wrote his own to be the opposite of what was being setup so this third film could be an absolute mess. Giving a director free reign for a middle film wasn't a bright idea.



Honestly given JJ’s history I doubt that he DID have arcs planned out. He likes creating mysteries that never get explained. He knew he wasn’t doing the sequels from before he started work on E7, and it was a recent change that they offered him 9. He just threw that stuff into the wind with the expectation that it would be someone else’s job to figure it out.

Kind of like Lost!


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## diagrammatiks

wankerness said:


> Honestly given JJ’s history I doubt that he DID have arcs planned out. He likes creating mysteries that never get explained. He knew he wasn’t doing the sequels from before he started work on E7, and it was a recent change that they offered him 9. He just threw that stuff into the wind with the expectation that it would be someone else’s job to figure it out.
> 
> Kind of like Lost!



If he had some good to come after him


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## Quiet Coil

I was under the impression that The Last Jedi was John Williams last SW movie. Do we know this to be fact?

...As much as I don’t appreciate TLJ, Williams was as good as ever. I’d love to see (hear) him close out the Skywalker saga.

I don’t have any real expectations from this one, but if it dishes out the fan-service nostalgia like TFA and wraps things up satisfyingly enough, I should be a happy camper.

Rian could probably make a compelling addition to the Star Wars universe, but man did he make a flustercluck of a chapter for the Skywalker saga. As much as JJ didn’t really add anything to this storyline, this was not the time or place for Johnson’s tomfoolery.

EDIT: Sounds like I was mistaken and that he should indeed be composing for IX. At the end of the day, if it comes to it I could just enjoy his soundtracks and ignore the movies, sort of like the prequels.


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## BenjaminW

The sequel trilogy has been a bit of a miss with me. I always felt that TFA was a rehash of A New Hope and I really couldn't get into TLJ at all. I'm mixed on the new movie as I feel it's either going to be a massive train wreck, or it could be one of the best Star Wars movies out there. 

I still think the original trilogy and unironically the prequels are better than the sequel trilogy in my opinion.


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## Quiet Coil

BenjaminW said:


> ...the original trilogy and unironically the prequels are better than the sequel trilogy...



The stories? Absolutely. The execution? Ugh...

Lucas defined a trend for me. Y’know, when the creator of a modern classic returns to it with a pile of cash, doubling down on what they felt was lacking and losing sight of what made the original(s) great (Scott, Spielberg, even Jackson).


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## MFB

I'll say it until I die, everything Jedi related with The Last Jedi is on point, and should have been the thing people took away from the film; instead, everyone remembers everything else that ISN'T Jedi related, and how unserving of the story it is, and how much it broke their suspension of disbelief in being in a galaxy far, far away.

Thats where the Last Jedi failed, as an overall movie and enjoyment experience, not as a story.


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## Quiet Coil

How about it failed as a movie? Luke’s story is the only part I liked (alien elephant seal milking aside), and everything else was so lame that it actually detracted from all elements.

Hard to “just take away” the good part when you don’t give a rat’s ass about the characters by the end of the movie.


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## BenjaminW

Noisy Humbucker said:


> The stories? Absolutely. The execution? Ugh...
> 
> Lucas defined a trend for me. Y’know, when the creator of a modern classic returns to it with a pile of cash, doubling down on what they felt was lacking and losing sight of what made the original(s) great (Scott, Spielberg, even Jackson).


To be fair, I grew up watching the prequels so I guess it's natural for me to like them.


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## diagrammatiks

wankerness said:


> You think the Phantom Menace is the best of the 7 sequels/prequels?!
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it effectively the last chance? It’s not like they’re going to stop making these things, even if it bombs harder than Solo.



Other then binks and the very last movie I’m ok with the prequels. But I give +1000 points to anything Natalie Portman is in


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## MFB

Noisy Humbucker said:


> How about it failed as a movie? Luke’s story is the only part I liked (alien elephant seal milking aside), and everything else was so lame that it actually detracted from all elements.
> 
> Hard to “just take away” the good part when you don’t give a rat’s ass about the characters by the end of the movie.



...which is exactly what I'm saying?


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## Quiet Coil

MFB said:


> ...which is exactly what I'm saying?


I got the impression that you liked it more than not, and were suggesting that we should too (hence the whole “everything Jedi related with The Last Jedi is on point, and should have been the thing people took away from the film”).

Potato, potatoe I suppose.

P.S. The throne room fight and the scene with Yoda both sucked. Yeah, I said it.


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## Seabeast2000

Am I wrong in expecting a Jango or Boba Fett movie sometime soon? Maybe I heard wrong a few years ago.


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## wankerness

The906 said:


> Am I wrong in expecting a Jango or Boba Fett movie sometime soon? Maybe I heard wrong a few years ago.



There’s a TV show called the Mandalorian that’s going on Disney’s new streaming service, I think that’s what you’re thinking of. It probably started as a Boba Fett movie.


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## TedEH

I've been away from the conversation for a bit but I'll jump back in.

I think it was said already, but I also hope that the Skywalker referenced in the title is not Rey (unless they mean it as a metaphor or something) 'cause that would be a bit too much flip-flopping over that same dead horse even for my taste. I'd even be ok with it being Luke again coming back one more time - but I don't imagine it would be.

I keep seeing people say "this is their last chance", I suppose in response to the trailer saying "The Saga Comes to an End", but Saga =/= Franchise. I assume they mean this is the end of the arcs for at least the Skywalker stuff. And I'd be ok with that. More Star Wars movies taking off from wherever this ends, but leaving all the old characters behind.


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## Demiurge

Completely unseriously, maybe the Skywalker referenced will be Anakin. We know there are force ghosts and that they can actually cause physical phenomena. Obi Wan and Yoda helped Luke from beyond. Anakin has done jack shit while he's gotta know that the galaxy's worst Vader cosplayer is out there... doing whatever. The only thing he did to redeem himself was to throw the Emperor down a pit which- unless the sound editing of the teaser is being immensely dishonest- didn't exactly git 'r done.


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## StevenC

The thing that annoyed me most about these movies is playing fast and loose with Force Ghosts.

Episode VI we see Anakin as a ghost.
Episode VII we've got his grandson running around the galaxy being evil in his name, but he doesn't show up and do anything.
Episode VIII we see Yoda show up just to have a chat with Luke and blow up a tree. Force Ghosts are back on the table.
Episode IX there's going to be somebody as a ghost, either Luke, Anakin or however Palpatine is back.

Just feels like none of these people involved watched the old movies or considered any of the established rules and powers.


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## MFB

Speculation currently is that Kylo will kill the Emperor if he returns in some capacity, thus truly finishing what Anakin started by throwing him down the chamber.


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## mguilherme87

Drew said:


> I'll take it a step further, and I WILL defend it. Though, first, I hadn't really thought about your point about Luke here, and I like it.
> 
> The Force Awakens was a fun movie and I enjoyed watching it quite a lot, and IMO it did a decent enough job setting up The Last Jedi and, evidently, The Rise of Skywalker. But, from a plot standpoint... It was basically Episode VI, which itself was Episode IV. How many times do we as Star Wars viewers need to blow up a bigger Death Star? I left that one having enjoyed it thoroughly, but prepared for VII and IX to essentially break no new ground for the franchise, and I remember a lot of reviewers raising that criticism too, that it pretty much rehashed a lot of the earlier movies. New Vader, new Luke, new Emperor, new droids, new Death Star, wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> The Last Jedi pulled a 180. It strongly suggested Rey _wasn't_ a Skywalker, it humanized Kylo Ren and set up a potential Kylo/Rey storyline, it killed off Snope, and rather than taking out another bigger, badder Death Star it had the resistance beaten back, defeated, and fleeing, but choosing to live to fight another day rather than die in a blaze of glory. The whole story ark to the gambling planet was important to the storyline precisely _because_ it ended in failure - for me the major theme of the movie was failure is ok as long as it's a step to something else, whereas dying a hero is always a dead end. If Rey is in fact _not_ a Skywalker, that opens up the storyline significantly to something bigger than a family drama, and the slave kids at the end using the force kind of underlines that point and (IMO) sets the series up for an even bigger final.
> 
> Idunno. A lot of the criticisms I've seen leveled at the Last Jedi seem to be based on the fact that it _wasn't_ the same story as the one before it, which seems a little unfair when the Force Awakens took some flack for being too derivative of the original trilogy. I think it's just one of these things where no matter _what_ the next installment did, someone was going to be upset, compounded by a whole bunch of dudes getting all butt-hurt that there were an awful lot of strong, empowered women doing things other than being showily heroic, while a lot of the "heroic" characters ended up fucking things up and needing to be bailed out by chicks.
> 
> I still think Rogue One is my favorite of the new movies, but IMO Last Jedi was better than Force Awakens, and Force Awakens may have been predictable but at least the bar was so low after the prequels that I was fuckin' relieved that it wasn't Jar Jar Binks all over again.
> 
> My biggest issue with the final trilogy so far is it's not entirely clear that there was a cohesive storyline given to the two different directors, and they may be working at cross purposes. TBD though.



I 100% agree with everything in this post! Well said man, my thought exactly


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## mguilherme87

I think Palpatine is going to be returning as a force ghost, possibly whispering in Kylo Ren's ear to try and convince Kylo to find some ancient Sith holocron (or something of the sort) to bring Palpatine back to life with the promise of helping the young, confused Ren rule the First Order and re-establish the empire. As well as promising to unveil hidden secrets and powers of the force to make Ren stronger than he could ever dream of...like a new Vader. Possibly Anakin's ghost will appear to try and counteract Palpatine's and maybe dissuade Ren from helping him. There is no way Palpatine has been alive during all of this time as he was in the EU...Otherwise he would have made his return immediately, he wouldnt have let the Empire crumble the way it did. Only to wait so long to try and reclaim the throne.


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## mongey

I’m hyped.

I stand by my opinion that If you remove the whole Finn section on the casino planet form last Jedi it’s a solid Star Wars movie.

That section just blows.


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## KnightBrolaire

mongey said:


> I’m hyped.
> 
> I stand by my opinion that If you remove the whole Finn section on the casino planet form last Jedi it’s a solid Star Wars movie.
> 
> That section just blows.


the casino planet subplot was basically pointless filler


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## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> the casino planet subplot was basically pointless filler



The whole Finn plus random Asian sidekick was pointless filler.


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## A-Branger

Drew said:


> It strongly suggested Rey _wasn't_ a Skywalker,



no it didnt. It only showed Kylo saying to her that her parents were "no-body"..... which (and I actually though this as soon as he said that line on the cinema), its jsut a lie to make her angry. And wahtever was that scene with the mirrors, ti didnt show her aprents, jsut showed her so they would create a deep thing where her "parents" dont matter, onyl her or whatever. Still didnt imply that she wasnt a skywalker either

also yeah her "parents" were no-body, her REAL parents are someone... because shes a lost baby separated at birth because midichlorian or something stupid like that

with that movie title it only implies that she would be indeed Luke's lost daughter, or Kylo's lost sister, separateda t birth, and give to some weird uncles who trade her for something who knows..... so she is indeed "the chosen one"...*rolleyes* fucking Disney

to be fair it would make sense that each of the trilogies are of one Skywalker generation


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## Joan Maal

Well, considering other options, Im ready to waste almost 3 hours of may life watching that kind of entertainment thing.


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## Lorcan Ward

KnightBrolaire said:


> the casino planet subplot was basically pointless filler



It was like some forgettable DLC you had to complete before the main mission locked you out of it. 

On the subject of games I'm very hyped for this! 


It's depressing that 1313 got cancelled when it was so far in development and looked so promising but this has my attention. That and the potential the Mandalorian has I don't mind of this film is bad, there is plenty of other Star Wars content coming.


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## _MonSTeR_

wankerness said:


> You think the Phantom Menace is the best of the 7 sequels/prequels?!



No, I think it was the start of messing with a then-established mythology in a way that started to take-away from the originals rather than add to them. Things like "midichlorians" an answer to a question that no-one asked. We'd been told "It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together". We were done, that's all we needed to know; we didn't need someone to say it's "force mitochondria" the very explanation undermined the premise that made the original film so amazing.

That sort of thing went on and on and on throughout the prequels, sequels and side-quests, and the more it went on, the less cohesive the originals became. I've seen some fans argue it away with Kenobi's "certain point of view" point of view, but to me, it devalues the whole mythos.



wankerness said:


> Why is it effectively the last chance? It’s not like they’re going to stop making these things, even if it bombs harder than Solo.


No, you're absolutely right, there'll be more Star Wars no doubt, but Disney has already said this is the end of the Skywalker storyline, so in that way, it's the last chance. 

I've heard fan rumours that the next batch of films are going to be set thousands of years away possibly in "The Old Republic" so in that way, no more of these characters and the end of that story, hence the last chance. And as we both agree, there'll be more Star Wars, it's too big a name to fail (maybe).


----------



## littlebadboy

Drew said:


> Pretty much this, as well.
> 
> Not a ton to go on, but the name seems an odd choice, for the movie AFTER Luke (more or less) dies. Sort of implies they're going to do an about face and confirm Rey is a Skywalker, after all. I don't love that decision - I like where the Last Jedi was going - but whatever, I'll be watching this when it comes out, for sure.
> 
> If nothing else, it almost HAS to be better than Episode I.



in the old Star Wars old books series, it said Han and Leia had twins. I was already around when the first star wars movie (Ep. 3) came out. I was always wondering if they would follow it having Rey and Ren being twins.


----------



## Demiurge

Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are almost 10 years apart in age and it shows, so the twin thing would be hard to play.


----------



## A-Branger

Demiurge said:


> Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are almost 10 years apart in age and it shows, so the twin thing would be hard to play.


I didnt knew it was that much. It didnt seem that muhc to me. ButHollywood being Hollywood that wont stop them at all



littlebadboy said:


> I was always wondering if they would follow it having Rey and Ren being twins.



well that answer my question then. I was wondering if they would do a lost daugher from Luke or Leya.

That would also explain the connection Rey and Ben have between them. Also the why shes so good at flying. Maybe even the why Han was so easy to "hire her" to co-pilot and why Leyla was so warm to her too. Maybe they knew but they had to keep their mouths shut to protect her of blah blah


----------



## littlebadboy

A-Branger said:


> well that answer my question then. I was wondering if they would do a lost daugher from Luke or Leya.
> 
> That would also explain the connection Rey and Ben have between them. Also the why shes so good at flying. Maybe even the why Han was so easy to "hire her" to co-pilot and why Leyla was so warm to her too. Maybe they knew but they had to keep their mouths shut to protect her of blah blah



Or maybe they did a Jedi mind erase thing because to have them both on the dark side would be a double disaster.


----------



## StevenC

Worth noting there's a 10 year age difference between Rey and Kylo, in universe.


----------



## wankerness

Demiurge said:


> Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are almost 10 years apart in age and it shows, so the twin thing would be hard to play.



Nah, it's easy, they just froze her in carbonite for ten years after she was born!


----------



## Drew

TedEH said:


> I think it was said already, but I also hope that the Skywalker referenced in the title is not Rey (unless they mean it as a metaphor or something) 'cause that would be a bit too much flip-flopping over that same dead horse even for my taste. I'd even be ok with it being Luke again coming back one more time - but I don't imagine it would be.


You know, I can't believe I overlooked this.  You're right, of course - Kylo Ren may have taken a new name and may have been born Ben Solo, but he is still technically a Skywalker. Ren rejecting the dark side of the force would a fitting way to wrap this up. 

My money is on Luke being a minor/advisory character as a Force ghost a la Yoda in the last one, and frankly I hope he ISN'T a major part of the action. 

One final thought - there's a lot of discussion here about JJ Abrams' potential storyline and Rian Johnson potentially deviating from it, with people here (myself included) having pretty strong feelings about the relative merits of each. That's beside the point, I think. The REAL issue here, IMO, wouldn't be that Abrams just did a rehash of A New Hope or Johnson deviated from storylines Abrams started, but that if that DID happen, that Disney had so little overall direction in where they wanted to take the storyline that they let Abrams write the first move, told him he'd write the third, and then let Johnson write the middle one, without making sure that the two directors were on the same page as far as major plotpoints like who Rey is and who they were going to fight. In fact, the idea that Disney could have hired two different writers/directors and just said, "you guys go figure out something, and don't necessarily talk to each other while you do so," and then washed their hands of the whole thing seems completely implausible to me. 

I'd never really bothered to look into what the two have said about the other's work, but a bit of googling suggests Abrams was pretty supportive of Johnson's decisions, and in fact the Rey/Luke who'd turned his back on the force storyline dated back to The Force Awakens originally before it was collectively decided to move that storyline further back into the series. So, I wonder how much of this narrarive of JJ Abrams creating a story, and then Johnson blowing it up, is even true - the two men seem to be pretty closely in sync here, and if anything JJ Abrams has zero patience for the "TLJ was a sell-out to SJWs" arguments, which would have me thinking if I were one of the guys pissed off about TLJ I wouldn't be holding my breath for a big about-face in The Rise of Skywalker.


----------



## wankerness

Drew said:


> Disney had so little overall direction in where they wanted to take the storyline that they let Abrams write the first move, told him he'd write the third, and then let Johnson write the middle one, without making sure that the two directors were on the same page as far as major plotpoints like who Rey is and who they were going to fight. In fact, the idea that Disney could have hired two different writers/directors and just said, "you guys go figure out something, and don't necessarily talk to each other while you do so," and then washed their hands of the whole thing seems completely implausible to me.



They DIDN'T tell Abrams he could do the third, it was originally supposed to be by that Jurassic World hack until he released that insane sniper kid movie and they took him off the project. If they'd originally planned to have the same guy do 1 and 3 I'm sure that they would have made sure that 2 was part of the same "vision." But, Johnson wrote the whole thing with the assumption that Trevorrow was going to write and direct part 3, not that Abrams was going to come back and try to finish off what he'd started in 1.

It would have made more sense to have 3 totally different people do it, but it likely would have been more of a mess, too!

As much as people like to screech about TLJ, I think if Johnson gets to do his entire self-contained trilogy that it will be vastly better from a plot point of view than this trilogy was since it will actually be consistent across the three movies. Johnson's stand-alone movies are quite well-written.


----------



## Drew

Oh, I didn't know that. Cool. either way I think a lot of the hate TLJ gets is off base, and if I had to choose one I'd say it was the strongest of the two movies of the final three we've seen yet.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

I’m holding out hope for the emergence of evil Ewoks


----------



## Quiet Coil

crankyrayhanky said:


> I’m holding out hope for the emergence of evil Ewoks



Tarfang would eat those camel-horse-rabbit-things for breakfast and crap porgs!


----------



## diagrammatiks

I hate the sjw-hating assholes. It’s become impossible to just hate something because it’s a piece of shit.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

wankerness said:


> They DIDN'T tell Abrams he could do the third, it was originally supposed to be by that Jurassic World hack until he released that insane sniper kid movie and they took him off the project. If they'd originally planned to have the same guy do 1 and 3 I'm sure that they would have made sure that 2 was part of the same "vision." But, Johnson wrote the whole thing with the assumption that Trevorrow was going to write and direct part 3, not that Abrams was going to come back and try to finish off what he'd started in 1.



I completely forgot Trevorrow did The Book Of Henry. Just comes to show that there was a ton of not just bad but equally forgettable movies that came out that year, which perhaps is much worse. However you feel about The Last Jedi, it's still heaty debated so at least it left a lasting impression. 

Funny I sort of semi-defended Trevorrow in the movie thread.  As much as I enjoyed Safety Not Guaranteed, it really was just an alright movie. The first Jurassic World film I also thought was alright even if some of my friend says otherwise. From what I heard of The Book Of Henry, it's a bonkers insane premise that could have an awesome movie with a deconstructionist theme (which seems to run in all his movies), but sadly marred by butthole execution. 

It would have been interesting to see what new territories Trevorrow would have taken Star Wars, but oh well. 



Drew said:


> Oh, I didn't know that. Cool. either way I think a lot of the hate TLJ gets is off base, and if I had to choose one I'd say it was the strongest of the two movies of the final three we've seen yet.



I also fall on this boat, despite The Last Jedi's faults. Agreed that all of Rian Johnson's work prior are well written. I'm genuinely curious how Knives Out will turn out.


----------



## Xaios

diagrammatiks said:


> But I give +1000 points to anything Natalie Portman is in


Mmmm, yeah, I won't lie, I do too.


Bloody_Inferno said:


> Safety Not Guaranteed


Wait, Trevorrow did that? I actually enjoyed that one, but I had no idea he was the one who directed it. It wasn't a masterpiece by any stretch but it was a good, just all around _nice_ movie.

I guess that explains how he got the gig to direct Jurassic World.


----------



## wankerness

Why do you guys do that? Most of what she's been in since the prequels is not good. Or, it's good, and she's the weak link (ex, Annihilation). I think Black Swan is the only thing that she's pretty good in that's also good.

Is it just cause you think she's hot?


----------



## Metropolis

Oh look, it's uncle Palps!







_*The Mandalorian*_ is an upcoming live-action _Star Wars_ television series currently being developed by Lucasfilm. The series will take place about five years after the events of _Star Wars_: Episode VI _Return of the Jedi_ and is set to air exclusively on the new Disney+ streaming service beginning November 12, 2019. Jon Favreau is writing and will executive-produce the series. Directors include Dave Filoni, Deborah Chow, Rick Famuyiwa, Bryce Dallas Howard, and Taika Waititi.



Uhh, what? Obi Wan Kenobi series also coming is


----------



## diagrammatiks

Please retcon the second movie.


----------



## Drew

diagrammatiks said:


> Please retcon the second movie.


Talk about beating a dead horse.  

TLJ > TFA. We didn't really need to remake A New Hope for a third time.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The Mandalorian has a lot of potential. 

New trailer:


Funny how a new Star Wars film is a common thing now and the release of a film isn't a OMG thing anymore. With another planned future trilogy and 2 more Star Wars TV shows its going to get a bit much. What we really need is more games.


----------



## TedEH

Star Wars is a great setting for games. And there's been lots of enjoyable ones. +1 for more Star Wars games.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Drew said:


> Talk about beating a dead horse.
> 
> TLJ > TFA. We didn't really need to remake A New Hope for a third time.


When things suck it's ok to talk about how much they suck. That's pretty standard.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

TedEH said:


> Star Wars is a great setting for games. And there's been lots of enjoyable ones. +1 for more Star Wars games.



1313 joining the graveyard of Baldurs Gate 3 - The Black Hound, Fallout 3 - Van Buren and Fallout Tactics 2 was a sad day for me


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Lorcan Ward said:


> The Mandalorian has a lot of potential.
> 
> New trailer:
> 
> 
> Funny how a new Star Wars film is a common thing now and the release of a film isn't a OMG thing anymore. With another planned future trilogy and 2 more Star Wars TV shows its going to get a bit much. What we really need is more games.



Star Wars def needs more games. Especially after the whole shitstorm surrounding Battlefront II. I demand a Republic Commando sequel or maybe a Dark Forces remake.


----------



## Drew

diagrammatiks said:


> When things suck it's ok to talk about how much they suck. That's pretty standard.


Still, this is like the fifth time you've shared this exact same opinion/request in this thread. It gets boring after a while.


----------



## Evil Chuck

I didn't get a chance to see it in the theater so I bought the 4K Blu Ray even though I was a little iffy on TFA. 

I ended up shutting the Blu Ray player off in disgust right about the time Leia became a superhero and magically came back to life and floated back to the ship through the vacuum of space. I know nobody wants to hear a negative nancy badmouth their favorite stuff, but I loved Star Wars just as much as the next person. I will never finish TLJ and I will never watch another Star Wars movie as long as Disney is in charge. Which basically means I'll never see another Star Wars movie again. 

It pains me to say it because I had such a connection to the original trilogy, but they're just movies after all. I'm probably better off not being so engrossed by imaginary space dramas anyway.


----------



## thedonal

I left the cinema after The Last Jedi and someone asked me what I thought. I enjoyed it for sure. And have enjoyed it again. But I couldn't answer on what I thought of it.

The "Woke" agenda was awful and a lot of what ruined the movie for me. Diminishing the male characters to make the women look stronger doesn't actually make the women any stronger- it leaves them exactly where they were. And Leia was always a very strong character anyway so I don't think this was necessary. They ruined Poe and Luke this way.

Rey continued with having no real personality as such (the writing and possibly choice of actress- though this isn't a criticism of Daisy Ridley at all- just that I don't think she was the right choice).

A number of the jokes (particularly the "Holding for Huggs" gag at the start) really stood out to me as bad writing- even on the first viewing. They are contemporary gags that truly take the vibe away from the "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" vibe. It's not Star Wars language. It's modern day Earth language. It will probably also date the film quite badly over time (like the proliferation of CGI in the 90s). In fact- I liked Hux and Domnhall Gleeson's performance- the bit speech near the end of Force Awakens is great and full of vitriol. And then he's diminished to a laughing stock at the start of Ep.8. He was initially being set up as a 'rival' to Kylo Ren that might hold his reigns as the story went on, despite Kylo's powers. That was completely dissolved.

I was disappointed that they killed Snoke (if they did- ripe for retconning)- Andy Serkis voicework was fantastic here and opened Snoke up as a more interesting character. 

There's lots to undo in The Rise of Skywalker. I've seen some very complicated theories on what "could" happen and what that title could mean- but theories that are probably more complicated than Disney would dream of to finish the story.

I won't lie- I got a thrill when I saw the first teaser trailer. I always do for a new Star Wars movie. I'm hoping Rey goes dark (she is quite angry in many scenes and impetuous) and Kylo goes light. I guess I'd like Kylo's character to be given more gravitas than the confused, tantrum prone teenager he comes across as in Ep's 7 and 8. 

I think JJ Abrams can undo some of the awful work that Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson did in TLJ, but he's got his work cut out and Disney hanging around his neck like a badly stuffed albatross. And- while I like some of his movies, he's not that great a film maker ever or even currently (those 2 Star Trek films were fairly forgettable, fun as they are-for example). We shall see...

If all we can say is "it was better than The Last Jedi", it won't be a great accolade for the film. It's one of the greatest movie sagas of all time (even with the Prequels!!)- it does deserve a solid, thrilling and "right" ending.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I don't know how they will continue and even end this story in a satisfying way. They shot themselves in the foot by having two directors work separately on a trilogy, the first setting up the story and character arcs with the second throwing everything in the thrash and doing the opposite of what was being built up because he could. Now the first director has to try work around the changes made in the second film that shut off the paths he was planning characters to go.

It's like one chef starts making a lasagne, setting up all the layers but another chef takes over and wants to turn it into a Tiramisu so the first chef comes back to layers of tomato and coffee sponge.


----------



## Drew

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't know how they will continue and even end this story in a satisfying way. They shot themselves in the foot by having two directors work separately on a trilogy, the first setting up the story and character arcs with the second throwing everything in the thrash and doing the opposite of what was being built up because he could. Now the first director has to try work around the changes made in the second film that shut off the paths he was planning characters to go.
> 
> It's like one chef starts making a lasagne, setting up all the layers but another chef takes over and wants to turn it into a Tiramisu so the first chef comes back to layers of tomato and coffee sponge.


The only thing that prevents me from disagreeing here, is I can'y _possibly _see a behemoth like Disney giving two different directors carte blanche go-ahead to write whatever story they wanted for a franchise as valuable as Star Wars, without keeping SOME sort of control of the plot, at least from a high level. Can you really picture Bob Iger calling up J.J.
Abrams and saying, "Hey, wanna do a Star Wars movie? Cool, here's a check, give me a call when you have a movie."

From what I've read, The Last Jedi actually drew heavily from Lucas's original plans for Episode VII, and Disney made the call to bump that story back to VIII and start of the final trilogy in a different direction. That suggests that 1) Disney IS heavily involved in plot direction, and 2) you guys are probably bitching about the wrong movie if you think there's too much disconnect between VII and VIII.


----------



## StevenC

I don't know what we're arguing about, Episode VII and VIII are both awful movies and no one should go see IX.


----------



## p0ke

I've liked every Star Wars movie so far and am pretty sure I'll like Episode IX as well 

Yeah, I'll admit I mostly liked episode 1 because I was a kid when it came out and would rather not watch it today, but it's still not quite as bad as people say IMO. I really like the rest of the movies though, 7 and 8 especially being really pleasant surprises.



TedEH said:


> Star Wars is a great setting for games. And there's been lots of enjoyable ones. +1 for more Star Wars games.



Really looking forward to the new Jedi: Fallen Order game. I wish they'd make a new Kotor-style RPG too! Also the Jedi Knight games were really good.


----------



## Mathemagician

I liked all the one off movies too. Like Solo. Idk. It’s hard to get worked up about movie cannon not lining up 1 to 1 with expectations when it’s a 2 hour run time not a book.


----------



## p0ke

Mathemagician said:


> I liked all the one off movies too. Like Solo. Idk. It’s hard to get worked up about movie cannon not lining up 1 to 1 with expectations when it’s a 2 hour run time not a book.



Yeah, I liked those too. Also really digging The Mandalorian so far (just finished ep. 2)


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

The Mandalorian is fantastic. My only complaint is the short run time of the episodes. The music especially is a super awesome mix of electronic and orchestral elements. I also really enjoy how the main character is constantly fighting against the ridiculousness of the Star Wars universe. And baby Yoda is fucking adorable.

RE: RoS. It is unbelievable how not hyped I am about this movie. Main heroes with awesome potential haven't really been fleshed out. Past heroes' triumphs, turned out, meant nothing at all and they all turned out to be bad alcoholic dads, failed politicians, or depressed and suicidal. TLJ really quashed the inner 9-year-old Star Wars fan in me.

I'll still go and see it when it's in theaters but I'm not expecting much and that's sad.


----------



## wankerness

TLJ was pretty good, but this looks like it will be hard to get into. There were already too many new characters that needed more work done on them for anything to really resonate with character events, and then they decide to dump a bunch more characters into an already over-stocked roster??? Bad move, IMO. The fact Palpatine is coming back is stupid as hell, too, and what we needed was some kind of capping event and development of the already-established threats instead of introducing entirely new (or rehashed from the old movies) ones.

What episode 7 really got right was introducing a handful of new characters and making them instantly likable and charismatic. TLJ did some good work with Rey and Kylo, but didn't have enough time to devote to Finn to make anything with him land (partly because his subplot was the worst part of the movie and Rose was not a good character), and it seems like there's a decent risk of him being even more underserved here.


----------



## philkilla

TLJ was the worst star wars films ever made; probably one of the worst films period.

I went ahead and read the leaks for the rise of skywalker, and it is following closely on the coat tails of TLJ.

Save your money.


----------



## NotDonVito

This is what I associate Star Wars with now.


----------



## wankerness

philkilla said:


> TLJ was the worst star wars films ever made; probably one of the worst films period.
> 
> I went ahead and read the leaks for the rise of skywalker, and it is following closely on the coat tails of TLJ.
> 
> Save your money.



I feel as though the only way anyone could possibly find TLJ worse than the across-the-board awfulness of something like Attack of the Clones or Phantom Menace is some kind of wacko political/MRA stance; or an extreme "omfg my childhood has been raped" tribalism because you took Luke Skywalker being HEROIC wayyyyy too seriously. I get not liking TLJ, but Attack of the Clones is _unbelievably_ bad. I tried watching it in the last couple years! It is way worse than you remember! It's seriously about on the level of The Room dialogue/acting-wise, and the constant CGI looks worse than your average PS4 game's graphics. Going all-in on digital was a TERRIBLE idea. Phantom Menace looks better cause at least a bunch of it was shot on sets.


----------



## Choop

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't know how they will continue and even end this story in a satisfying way. They shot themselves in the foot by having two directors work separately on a trilogy, the first setting up the story and character arcs with the second throwing everything in the thrash and doing the opposite of what was being built up because he could. Now the first director has to try work around the changes made in the second film that shut off the paths he was planning characters to go.
> 
> It's like one chef starts making a lasagne, setting up all the layers but another chef takes over and wants to turn it into a Tiramisu so the first chef comes back to layers of tomato and coffee sponge.



The original trilogy actually had different directors too, but there was an overarching vision that they were more or less conforming to. The lasagna-tiramisu analogy is pretty spot on though for how the new trilogy has been going haha. I dunno how it will rebound, either, or if it can.



wankerness said:


> TLJ was pretty good, but this looks like it will be hard to get into. There were already too many new characters that needed more work done on them for anything to really resonate with character events, and then they decide to dump a bunch more characters into an already over-stocked roster??? Bad move, IMO. The fact Palpatine is coming back is stupid as hell, too, and what we needed was some kind of capping event and development of the already-established threats instead of introducing entirely new (or rehashed from the old movies) ones.
> 
> What episode 7 really got right was introducing a handful of new characters and making them instantly likable and charismatic. TLJ did some good work with Rey and Kylo, but didn't have enough time to devote to Finn to make anything with him land (partly because his subplot was the worst part of the movie and Rose was not a good character), and it seems like there's a decent risk of him being even more underserved here.



The main problem with TLJ, IMO, is that none of the characters really had an arc. I think they had potential, but ultimately the characters were all effectively the same as when the movie began. It just made the entire movie feel pointless, and some of the subplots were absolutely pointless. There was a lot of pointlessness in TLJ actually, thinking about it now. I dunno if it's Attack of the Clones tier bad, but it's pretty rough hah.


----------



## wankerness

Choop said:


> The main problem with TLJ, IMO, is that none of the characters really had an arc. I think they had potential, but ultimately the characters were all effectively the same as when the movie began. It just made the entire movie feel pointless, and some of the subplots were absolutely pointless. There was a lot of pointlessness in TLJ actually, thinking about it now. I dunno if it's Attack of the Clones tier bad, but it's pretty rough hah.



See, this is what I mean. Totally valid. The movie has issues. But "WORST STAR WARS MOVIE EVER????" None of that comes CLOSE to say, the epic sand scene. Or Anakin squealing "I KILLED THEM! THEY'RE ANIMALS! I HATE THEM!" Or how terrible basically the entire third act looks thanks to horribly outdated CGI being sprayed all over the screen with zero attempt to make it look cinematic or realistic. Etc


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

I think TLJ is the worst Star Wars film and thinking that doesn't make me racist, misogynist, or a political extremist. I can find things to like about AOTC and TPM and I can also find things to like about TLJ. I personally think that TLJ is the least Star Wars "feeling" movie that has been made. A beautiful looking film with some cool elements but it still feels like a cover song or a "in the style of".

TLJ didn't further the story any and also had the unfortunate effect of not creating any hype. When TFA was over, we had so many exciting questions! But TLJ didn't even bother answering the questions by either ignoring them or full on throwing them out. Good storytelling has set up and payoff and just not delivering a pay off to an opened plot thread isn't a pay off, it's just bad storytelling.

Also, holy broken canon with the hyperspeed ramming. Ep. IV could've been solved by 5-6 X-Wings being piloted by droids and going hyperspeed into the Death Star at different points.


----------



## wankerness

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I think TLJ is the worst Star Wars film and thinking that doesn't make me racist, misogynist, or a political extremist. I can find things to like about AOTC and TPM and I can also find things to like about TLJ. I personally think that TLJ is the least Star Wars "feeling" movie that has been made. A beautiful looking film with some cool elements but it still feels like a cover song or a "in the style of".
> 
> TLJ didn't further the story any and also had the unfortunate effect of not creating any hype. When TFA was over, we had so many exciting questions! But TLJ didn't even bother answering the questions by either ignoring them or full on throwing them out. Good storytelling has set up and payoff and just not delivering a pay off to an opened plot thread isn't a pay off, it's just bad storytelling.
> 
> Also, holy broken canon with the hyperspeed ramming. Ep. IV could've been solved by 5-6 X-Wings being piloted by droids and going hyperspeed into the Death Star at different points.



It not delivering on the hype of episode VII and having a hyperspeed ramming that doesn't make sense according to Star Wars Physics Experts make it "possibly THE WORST MOVIE YOU'VE EVER SEEN?" I guess you've been really sheltered from truly bad movies!

EDIT: Oh, you're not the guy that said it's "not only the worst Star Wars movie but possibly the worst movie ever."

"Least Star Wars Feeling" I don't agree with either. I think it feels far, far more like the goofy, occasionally dramatic OT than the miserable, character-less attempt at being DARK and MATURE that Rogue One was.

I come from the perspective of being an OT fanboy all my life, thinking the first two prequels were fairly big disappointments that I have no real attachment to, sorta liking the third in some respects but still thinking it's a bad movie, and then really liking episode VII and sorta liking TLJ/Solo. Rogue One I think the Redlettermedia crew totally nailed - I was impressed on first viewing but completely reversed on it on repeat watches.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

wankerness said:


> It not delivering on the hype of episode VII and having a hyperspeed ramming that doesn't make sense according to Star Wars Physics Experts make it "possibly THE WORST MOVIE YOU'VE EVER SEEN?" I guess you've been really sheltered from truly bad movies!
> 
> EDIT: Oh, you're not the guy that said it's "not only the worst Star Wars movie but possibly the worst movie ever."
> 
> "Least Star Wars Feeling" I don't agree with either. I think it feels far, far more like the goofy, occasionally dramatic OT than the miserable, character-less attempt at being DARK and MATURE that Rogue One was.
> 
> I come from the perspective of being an OT fanboy all my life, thinking the first two prequels were fairly big disappointments that I have no real attachment to, sorta liking the third in some respects but still thinking it's a bad movie, and then really liking episode VII and sorta liking TLJ/Solo. Rogue One I think the Redlettermedia crew totally nailed - I was impressed on first viewing but completely reversed on it on repeat watches.



I'm glad you sorta liked it! Different strokes and all. I just genuinely derived so little pleasure from the movie when I saw it and it left nothing for me to look forward to. Now, it might have the best cinematography out of all of the movies. Holy shit, TLJ movie is gorgeous but I cannot get on with a framing device as (imho) shallow as the one it uses and it's complete lack of character development.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Captain Butterscotch said:


> RE: RoS. It is unbelievable how not hyped I am about this movie. Main heroes with awesome potential haven't really been fleshed out. Past heroes' triumphs, turned out, meant nothing at all and they all turned out to be bad alcoholic dads, failed politicians, or depressed and suicidal. TLJ really quashed the inner 9-year-old Star Wars fan in me.
> 
> I'll still go and see it when it's in theaters but I'm not expecting much and that's sad.



I cannot sum up my current feelings towards the Star Wars universe more succinctly than this!!!


----------



## Seabeast2000

I think Robert Rodriguez needs to direct some SWU movies.


----------



## gnoll

I also thought TLJ was the worst Star Wars movie.

To me, the prequels were bad, but TLJ was "offensively" bad. It felt like the movie continuously slapped me across the face shouting "LOOK AT THIS, YOU HATE THIS, DON'T YOU?!?".


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't know how they will continue and even end this story in a satisfying way. They shot themselves in the foot by having two directors work separately on a trilogy, the first setting up the story and character arcs with the second throwing everything in the thrash and doing the opposite of what was being built up because he could. Now the first director has to try work around the changes made in the second film that shut off the paths he was planning characters to go.
> 
> It's like one chef starts making a lasagne, setting up all the layers but another chef takes over and wants to turn it into a Tiramisu so the first chef comes back to layers of tomato and coffee sponge.



In fact, if TLJ was a cooking show about making coffee sponge lasagne and it had a 10 minute cameo from Mark Hamill it would still be a better Hollywood movie than the TLJ we saw in theatres.


----------



## Seabeast2000




----------



## Drew

I will never understand the hatred for TLJ.

If I were to criticize _any_ of the final trilogy movies released to date, it would be the Force Awakens for shamelessly recycling all of the tropes of the original. I mean, how many times do we need to blow up a bigger Death Star? How many villans in black masks do we need? IMO the single best thing about TFA was the fact that Kylo Ren almost immediately took off his stupid "I want to be Darth Vader when I grow up!" face/ventilation mask. 



Choop said:


> The main problem with TLJ, IMO, is that none of the characters really had an arc. I think they had potential, but ultimately the characters were all effectively the same as when the movie began.


I don't know if this is really fair, though. I mean, low hanging fruit, Rey starts the movie vaguely force aware and leaves a fully trained jedi, but beyond that Poe and Finn both learn, very nearly the hard way, that it's sometimes harder but almost always more important to live quietly for a cause than to die nobly for it, and Finn and Rose's storyline is pretty explicitly about failing up, that failure is, Vader be damned, not something that's "not tolerated," but is ok if you get back on your feet and go out and try again, and that continuing to try is it's own form of success.

Idunno. There are legitimate grounds to criticize the movie, sure, and the hyperspeed ramming is a little problematic for continuity purposes, sure. But I don't think characters being static and not growing as the film progresses is one of them - that's 8 Mile you're thinking of.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Light speed ramming is only possible later in the series through the advancement of Gas Direct Injection and turbocharging efficiencies.


----------



## Choop

Drew said:


> I will never understand the hatred for TLJ.
> 
> If I were to criticize _any_ of the final trilogy movies released to date, it would be the Force Awakens for shamelessly recycling all of the tropes of the original. I mean, how many times do we need to blow up a bigger Death Star? How many villans in black masks do we need? IMO the single best thing about TFA was the fact that Kylo Ren almost immediately took off his stupid "I want to be Darth Vader when I grow up!" face/ventilation mask.
> 
> 
> I don't know if this is really fair, though. I mean, low hanging fruit, Rey starts the movie vaguely force aware and leaves a fully trained jedi, but beyond that Poe and Finn both learn, very nearly the hard way, that it's sometimes harder but almost always more important to live quietly for a cause than to die nobly for it, and Finn and Rose's storyline is pretty explicitly about failing up, that failure is, Vader be damned, not something that's "not tolerated," but is ok if you get back on your feet and go out and try again, and that continuing to try is it's own form of success.
> 
> Idunno. There are legitimate grounds to criticize the movie, sure, and the hyperspeed ramming is a little problematic for continuity purposes, sure. But I don't think characters being static and not growing as the film progresses is one of them - that's 8 Mile you're thinking of.



I'm not gonna try and pick it apart super hard because I'm not the most articulate person, haha. I just feel like Finn and Poe were utilized so much better in TFA. Their storylines were focused on just enough and never felt too separate from the main story. Kylo Ren didn't even really have an arc in TLJ--the movie teased that he might, and then he just went back to being blindingly evil at the end. Like aside from having more force control, how did Rey grow as a person by the end? Everyone just felt flat to me. Maybe it's just me, meh.


----------



## Drew

Choop said:


> I'm not gonna try and pick it apart super hard because I'm not the most articulate person, haha. I just feel like Finn and Poe were utilized so much better in TFA. Their storylines were focused on just enough and never felt too separate from the main story. Kylo Ren didn't even really have an arc in TLJ--the movie teased that he might, and then he just went back to being blindingly evil at the end. Like aside from having more force control, how did Rey grow as a person by the end? Everyone just felt flat to me. Maybe it's just me, meh.


By all means, pick it apart. I won't demand articulatrion, haha.  

Only two specific things I'd argue - one, that Kylo's arc, IMO, isn't done - his flirtation with leaving the dark side leaves the door open to a full rejection in RoS or, at a minimum, some flirtation with the possibility of his doing so, and second, that I'm not sure Rey was - paradoxic as it seems to say this - really one of the principle characters of TLJ, with respect to character development - in a lot of ways, she served mostly as a foil for Luke coming to terms with his _own_ failures in training prior apprentices, notably Kylo, and the story arc in TLJ was really his, not hers.


----------



## Choop

Drew said:


> By all means, pick it apart. I won't demand articulatrion, haha.
> 
> Only two specific things I'd argue - one, that Kylo's arc, IMO, isn't done - his flirtation with leaving the dark side leaves the door open to a full rejection in RoS or, at a minimum, some flirtation with the possibility of his doing so, and second, that I'm not sure Rey was - paradoxic as it seems to say this - really one of the principle characters of TLJ, with respect to character development - in a lot of ways, she served mostly as a foil for Luke coming to terms with his _own_ failures in training prior apprentices, notably Kylo, and the story arc in TLJ was really his, not hers.



TBH I feel like I'd have to rewatch it to offer a proper reply with it having been a good while since I've seen it. I just remember it having really bad pacing problems, and feeling disjointed. It can probably be attributed to the movie having changed directors during production, I dunno. The characters just felt flat and story was very unfocused and almost contradictory in a lot of ways. I agree that Rey was a big part of Luke's story, but I still don't think Rey necessarily grew as a character in her own right by the end. Finns story was so separate and ultimately pointless, it barely felt like part of the same movie. Bleh. I don't wanna sound like a grouchy old guy here haha!


----------



## Drew

I really need to rewatch it too, before seeing the Rise of Skywalker. And don't worry, I'm over here shaking my fist at clouds and wishing these kids with their skinny jeans and djent music would just get off my damned lawn.


----------



## philkilla

The moment Leia went full Mary Poppins was when the knife was turned.

If I really wanted to be a dick I could pick apart bombs from the opening fight that somehow use space gravity, the stupid ass space chase because suddenly "tHe FiRsT oRdEr CaN TrAcK uS nOw", the idiotic and absolutely pointless side mission with Finn and Rose, or...the one moment Finn ALMOST makes his character relevant by destroying the mobile death beam nonsense on the sand planet...only for Rose to stop him at the last second for love. LOVE?! Couple that Finn somehow dragging her back across hundreds of meters of open area without getting shot at by the AT-AT's.

I saw the film once, and that was enough to burn so many fucking retard moments into my mind for forever. So yes, in regards of budget/lore/fan appreciation it is one of the worst films ever made.


----------



## StevenC

TLJ also hinges on hyperspace tracking, which was only ever mentioned in passing in a movie set before the original trilogy. The whole just out of distance spaceship chase premise is ludicrous and was a decision no one was forced to make. Every other Star War has at least a couple of years in between, but because of the choices the director made it ends up happening immediately after the last.


----------



## Drew

I think some of you need to watch The Last Jedi, and then immediately go watch A New Hope.


----------



## gnoll

I pretty much hated everything in TLJ. Thankfully I don't know if I remember everything at this point, but some things I unfortunately can't seem to forget:

The movie starts with some jokey dialogue between Poe and that bad guy with orange hair or something. That was super cringe to me, not funny at all, and a really bad start for the movie.

The falling bombs were stupid, but whatever.

Snoke dying just like that. You're gonna set up this big bad guy, and then he's SO USELESS that he suddenly just dies halfway through the second movie?? That SUCKS.

Leia flying. At first I was pretty impressed, like "Wow, they just killed her off just like that. That actually takes some balls!" And then... "Wait, what is going on? Oh no?? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!"

The purple hair woman being annoying and not saying anything. Like, what is your problem???? You are super annoying!! Why can't you just explain?!?

Finn and Rose's side adventure that ended up accomplishing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING, WHY WERE YOU IN THE MOVIE???

Then when Finn was about to sacrifice himself the stupid movie tricked me into thinking he was actually gonna end up getting something done, and then... Nope, the equally useless girl rams his vehicle, says something lame about love and they kiss. For real???? This is a joke, right?

Oh, and Luke...

Well, that character wouldn't act like that. I can't see how that's a continuation from the original trilogy. It's another character entirely. I feel bad for Mark Hamill.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I saw TLJ with my mom/sister back when it was in theaters and they both hated it. That's pretty telling when even super casual fans were pissed off with how TLJ went.
It was a flat out shitty movie in terms of writing/plot and execution. 

Solo was excellent though.
Mandalorian is great. I love the lone wolf and cub in SPAAACE vibes.


----------



## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> I saw TLJ with my mom/sister back when it was in theaters and they both hated it. That's pretty telling when even super casual fans were pissed off with how TLJ went.
> It was a flat out shitty movie in terms of writing/plot and execution.
> 
> .



I did the same with wife/daughter, ugh, what a chore to sit through that heap of shit for all of us.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine

KnightBrolaire said:


> It was a flat out shitty movie in terms of writing/plot and execution.



You guys are going to love this then.

Part 1:


Part 2:


Part 3:


----------



## TedEH

Emperor Guillotine said:


> You guys are going to love this then.
> [5 hours of commentary on a 2 hour movie]



I'm getting the same vibe from this as the game reviews that state "played 200 hours, 0/10, best game ever, I want my money back".
I don't understand why people get so invested in trying to stop people from enjoying things.

Edit: I don't reaaaaally think that's what the videos are trying to do, but still. Let people enjoy things.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

TedEH said:


> I'm getting the same vibe from this as the game reviews that state "played 200 hours, 0/10, best game ever, I want my money back".
> I don't understand why people get so invested in trying to stop people from enjoying things.
> 
> Edit: I don't reaaaaally think that's what the videos are trying to do, but still. Let people enjoy things.


people are EXTREEEMELY invested in the star wars universe so of course they are groups that would deconstruct and over analyze every aspect of a film on the series. Filmic analysis and discussing screenwriting in general have been a thing since cinema has existed.
Having actually watched those videos, he logically goes through the film literally scene by scene and deconstructs them. Everything he comments on is a very valid point.
TLJ is a fundamentally terrible film in terms of world building, logic, and horrendous tonal shifts.

But yeah keep trying to be dismissive of valid criticism of the most reviled star wars media in the last 10 years


----------



## StevenC

So has anyone seen the spoilers and reviews yet?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

StevenC said:


> So has anyone seen the spoilers and reviews yet?


it's sitting at 55% on rotten tomatoes right now just from critic reviews. Make of that what you will


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> it's sitting at 55% on rotten tomatoes right now just from critic reviews. Make of that what you will



general vibes have been pretty ok. I'll take 55. 

I mean one of the reviews was like...
fans of Star Wars will love this movie. but I don't like Star Wars. so I didn't like it. 3 stars.

I'll take that over whatever tlj got.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

diagrammatiks said:


> general vibes have been pretty ok. I'll take 55.
> 
> I mean one of the reviews was like...
> fans of Star Wars will love this movie. but I don't like Star Wars. so I didn't like it. 3 stars.
> 
> I'll take that over whatever tlj got.


critic ratings don't mean shit by themselves though. There's almost always a disconnect between how critics feel about films and how the paying audience feels about them. Once the initial audience reviews/ratings start coming in we'll have a better idea of if the movie is decent.


----------



## bostjan

Ugh I read the spoilers. This sounds like an irredemably bad movie...


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> critic ratings don't mean shit by themselves though. There's almost always a disconnect between how critics feel about films and how the paying audience feels about them. Once the initial audience reviews/ratings start coming in we'll have a better idea of if the movie is decent.



There's another set of reviews that's like. Ya I really liked tlj...and this is a good movie but it's not like tlj at all. I really just wanted more of that weird middle shit.

2 stars.


----------



## TedEH

KnightBrolaire said:


> But yeah keep trying to be dismissive of valid criticism of the most reviled star wars media in the last 10 years



The criticism can be as valid as anything, but it doesn't negate that at the end of the day, it's just entertainment. Enjoyment of such a thing is subjective, and none of it really matters. It could be the dumbest, most offensive thing ever committed to film, and someone out there is going to think it's brilliant -> and they've every right to enjoy it on those terms.

If that guy wants to spend a month of his life tearing apart a movie and documenting the process, then all the power to him. But if someone else wants to just enjoy a dumb space movie, then what's wrong with that?


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

In the wake of TLJ and it's divisiveness the only solution to unite the fanbase was.....to piss of _everybody _and unite them that way.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

TedEH said:


> The criticism can be as valid as anything, but it doesn't negate that at the end of the day, it's just entertainment. Enjoyment of such a thing is subjective, and none of it really matters. It could be the dumbest, most offensive thing ever committed to film, and someone out there is going to think it's brilliant -> and they've every right to enjoy it on those terms.
> 
> If that guy wants to spend a month of his life tearing apart a movie and documenting the process, then all the power to him. But if someone else wants to just enjoy a dumb space movie, then what's wrong with that?


That is a complete cop out. Just because something js entertainment doesn't mean it's immune to criticism or analysis.

Also the new film sounds like a fucking trainwreck:
https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-2019-review-a-gala/1900-6417383/


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> That is a complete cop out. Just because something js entertainment doesn't mean it's immune to criticism or analysis.
> 
> Also the new film sounds like a fucking trainwreck:
> https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-2019-review-a-gala/1900-6417383/




I mean the review starts off 

However you felt about The Last Jedi, at least it had something to say. With the much-maligned Star Wars: Episode VIII, director Rian Johnson attempted to make a statement about the insipid allure of nostalgia and an over-reliance on the past. Many fans agree it didn't stick the landing, but the parts that arguably worked--like Kylo and Rey's intimate rivalry, or Luke's shocking cynicism and triumphant redemption--successfully remixed familiar Star Wars tropes into something that felt new-ish.

Unfortunately, The Rise of Skywalker director J.J. Abrams doesn't seem to have fully grasped Johnson's message in The Last Jedi--that we have to "let the past die" to move forward. Johnson sought to establish a fresh direction for the Star Wars saga, but in Rise, Abrams is interested in killing only the parts of the past that he disagrees with. Instead of continuing down the path that Johnson set, Abrams swerves the franchise into yet another hard u-turn, cramming enough story for two movies into one, and largely acting like the previous film never happened--or actively retconning it.

...

let's repeat that last line

Abrams swerves the franchise into yet another hard u-turn, cramming enough story for two movies into one, and largely acting like the previous film never happened--or actively retconning it.

Great. Trainwreck or not I'm all in.


----------



## TedEH

KnightBrolaire said:


> Just because something js entertainment doesn't mean it's immune to criticism or analysis.



I didn't say it was immune. I said let people enjoy it. Both of those things can be true at the same time.


----------



## TedEH

diagrammatiks said:


> Trainwreck or not I'm all in.


^ This.


----------



## diagrammatiks

after reading the review. everything that guy complained about is a positive.

reads like a standard this should followed tlj and it didn't so it sucks review.

if Abrams had to bend over backwards and do some gymnastics to get this retconning done...I don't really care if it's a little dirty


----------



## NotDonVito

lol
https://i.4cdn.org/tv/1576700957205.webm


----------



## Drew

https://xkcd.com/2243/

Unless by the wildest of coincidences, this should be spoiler-free - XKCD's Star Wars Spoiler Generator.


----------



## Metropolis

Just saw the movie. It felt partly really rushed and some of the scenes were entirely pointless, like it was packed full of stuff. Too little explanation why and how things happened for average consumer which I may not be, but still. At best there was epic and entertaining moments, but as a whole something was just missing. And the nostalgia which JJ. Abrams wants to shove down from everyones throats is there. Comedy in this film has it moments, but mostly it doesn't work for me, especially between Poe and Finn for example. I think Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver made their roles well in this trilogy, but most of the side characters always felt too underdeveloped and therefore distant. Ending was somewhat predictable and a bit too safe landing for the whole saga. No freshness or great story telling, just action and... more action with a cliche ending.


----------



## Drew

Metropolis said:


> Just saw the movie. It felt partly really rushed and some of the scenes were entirely pointless, like it was packed full of stuff. Too little explanation why and how things happened for average consumer which I may not be, but still. At best there was epic and entertaining moments, but as a whole something was just missing. And the nostalgia which JJ. Abrams wants to shove down from everyones throats is there. Comedy in this film has it moments, but mostly it doesn't work for me, especially between Poe and Finn for example. I think Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver made their roles well in this trilogy, but most of the side characters always felt too underdeveloped and therefore distant. Ending was somewhat predictable and a bit too safe landing for the whole saga. No freshness or great story telling, just action and... more action with a cliche ending.


Wait, so you're telling me the director who wouldn't take any chances in The Force Awakens, _also_ wouldn't take any chances in The Rise of Skywalker?

If this doesn't end with someone blowing up an _even bigger_ Death Star....


----------



## Seabeast2000

I hope Kylo practices ATGATT and keeps his helmet on.


----------



## wankerness

KnightBrolaire said:


> That is a complete cop out. Just because something js entertainment doesn't mean it's immune to criticism or analysis.
> 
> Also the new film sounds like a fucking trainwreck:
> https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-2019-review-a-gala/1900-6417383/



Yeah, I've read reviews from all my usual sources, all of whom liked TFA and most of whom liked TLJ, and all of them were average at best. Sounds like a huge mess of rushed plotlines and fanservice that doesn't give nearly enough time to any of the main characters for anything to land. Oh well. I'll watch it sooner or later.

The only contradiction I've seen in all the reviews I've read is that like...1 of them said the Leia scenes were really well-handled. But, ALL of the other ones made special mention of how bad they were and one described her as speaking in "non sequiturs" which certainly makes sense for something cobbled together from outtake footage!!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

wankerness said:


> Yeah, I've read reviews from all my usual sources, all of whom liked TFA and most of whom liked TLJ, and all of them were average at best. Sounds like a huge mess of rushed plotlines and fanservice that doesn't give nearly enough time to any of the main characters for anything to land. Oh well. I'll watch it sooner or later.
> 
> The only contradiction I've seen in all the reviews I've read is that like...1 of them said the Leia scenes were really well-handled. But, ALL of the other ones made special mention of how bad they were and one described her as speaking in "non sequiturs" which certainly makes sense for something cobbled together from outtake footage!!


Honestly I wish they would have just cut all of Leia's parts or outright killed her off early in the film to stop crap like that from happening. I've been hearing very mixed reviews from my friends with some of them saying it's alright, and others hate how it's just basically high budget fanfiction.
*Sigh* I really wish Disney had just committed to using stories from the extended universe instead of creating this fucking abortion of a trilogy. There's such a wealth of material in the EU...


----------



## bostjan

If the plot ends up involving Porgs shitting on the Empire's First Order's forces and it somehow defeats them in battle, I'll go see it just to laugh at it.

Or maybe the Emporer is thrown down a well on Starkiller II by Kylo Ren or force ghost Anakin just before Lando blows it up, and he yells "Not again!"

Or maybe there will be a scene where Finn and Rose are revealed to be brother and sister.

If anyone who sees it can confirm any of these, or any references to Yogurt from Spaceballs, let me know so I can buy tickets.[/S]


----------



## Quiet Coil

KnightBrolaire said:


> There's such a wealth of material in the EU...



I’m just glad they brought Thrawn and Zahn back (even if he’s not necessarily one of my favorite EU authors). Most of the “Disney canon” books I’ve read have been crap.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Noisy Humbucker said:


> I’m just glad they brought Thrawn and Zahn back (even if he’s not necessarily one of my favorite EU authors). Most of the “Disney canon” books I’ve read have been crap.


Didn't they use the Thrawn plotline for Star Wars: Rebels?
I'm just pissed that they basically mutilated the jacen/jaina books for these films. They basically perfectly set up the soft reboot/new era that Disney was looking for, and they had a lot of great world building elements/character development instead of the barely hashed out dogshit we got with TFA/TLJ.


----------



## Quiet Coil

KnightBrolaire said:


> Didn't they use the Thrawn plotline for Star Wars: Rebels?
> I'm just pissed that they basically mutilated the jacen/jaina books for these films.


They did put him in Rebels - though I’ve only seen a handful of episodes so I don’t know in what capacity. There are three new Thrawn books from Zahn though, with three more on the way.

And yeah, I’d even take Yuuzhan Vong over this new trilogy. I was fine with TFA as popcorn fun (not to be taken too seriously) but then TLJ happened, and now this? Bleh

I’m just waiting for Disney to get desperate enough to release the “despecialized” original trilogy. I know - snowball’s chance in hell, but a fella can dream.


----------



## Metropolis

Drew said:


> Wait, so you're telling me the director who wouldn't take any chances in The Force Awakens, _also_ wouldn't take any chances in The Rise of Skywalker?
> 
> If this doesn't end with someone blowing up an _even bigger_ Death Star....



No... nooo! (yells with Palpatine's voice). If you forget rushed feeling of a plot it's actually quite good in a dark way, but it's not explained enough and you have to figure some of it in a methaphoric level, which is often problem with Star Wars. Personally I just saw lots of those things coming, which made it too predictable. Messy bits and all the action it has eh... kind of blinds, it feels too quick. Actually the Star Destroyers now have planet killing weapons similar to what First Order had... But no Death Stars (just ruins in the forest moon of Endor), and Palps is represented as really powerful.

I liked it more than The Last Jedi, I've seen it two or three times now and don't want to see it in years, if at all seriously.


----------



## Drew

Just, careful with anything REMOTELY close to a spoiler here, considering the movie was released last night, and if you have to talk about it, use spoiler tags on that shit.


----------



## NotDonVito

Wow I was wrong, this movie had some great dialog.


----------



## Ralyks

Just got home from seeing it. I really liked it, there. I said it.


Spoiler



Even if so many things screamed "Retcon!" I.e. Snooke.


----------



## Randy

Noisy Humbucker said:


> They did put him in Rebels - though I’ve only seen a handful of episodes so I don’t know in what capacity. There are three new Thrawn books from Zahn though, with three more on the way.
> 
> And yeah, I’d even take Yuuzhan Vong over this new trilogy. I was fine with TFA as popcorn fun (not to be taken too seriously) but then TLJ happened, and now this? Bleh
> 
> I’m just waiting for Disney to get desperate enough to release the “despecialized” original trilogy. I know - snowball’s chance in hell, but a fella can dream.



Speaking of animated SW series and worthwhile uses of Disney's money post-Skywalker Saga, what do I have to do to get a Cad Bane series?


----------



## mongey

Ralyks said:


> Just got home from seeing it. I really liked it, there. I said it.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Even if so many things screamed "Retcon!" I.e. Snooke.




I really liked it too. Don’t get all the hate. And I wasn’t a big fan of the last one.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

My sister told me it was actually good and I trust her recommendations, so I went and saw it earlier today. I won't talk in specifics but overall JJ did an alright job retconning and cleaning up the dumb shit TLJ did/set up. There were some specific arcs that completely fell flat and should have been completely excised, and some newer ones that really didn't add anything at this point in the story arc. Surprisingly the zombie leia dialogue wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Still, I would have rather that they killed her off instead of giving her dialogue/scenes after Carrie died. Overall the movie crams a lot of crap into 2.5 hours, and I felt like it suffered from similar issues to TLJ in the way that they fixated so much on making striking set pieces that the story just kind of meanders. There's some blatant callbacks to specific shots from the original trilogy but they don't really add anything to the film, unless you want to claim it's a meta reference to events being cyclical like other Epics (Mahabarata, Edda, Nibelung). I think the easier option is that they're pure nostalgia/fan service.

TLDR: better than TLJ, but that wasn't exactly hard to do lmao


----------



## bostjan

Better than TFA or no?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

bostjan said:


> Better than TFA or no?


ehh maybe on par or slightly worse


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> Better than TFA or no?



i think the new trilogy descends in quality each installment. This one’s easily the worst. It’s a mess, it rushes through way too many pointless plot elements at speeds that make your head spin and negate any chance of any drama landing. And they introduce worthless characters that are supposed to pay off at the end. The weirdest/clumsiest being that bizarre scene at the very end with one of them and Lando.

Rey and Kylo are pretty good as usual, everything else is kind of a garbage fire. I’d give it a 5.5/10 or so.


----------



## mongey

bostjan said:


> Better than TFA or no?


I say yes. It’s overly cheesy and Over the top in parts but that’s kinda when it’s at its best imho.


----------



## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd

My wife is a long time Star Wars fan and was excited to go see it, she asked me if I wanted to go but said nah I’m good. When she got home from the cinema she had a look on her face like someone pissed in her cornflakes. I’m knew it would be shite.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

KnightBrolaire said:


> ehh maybe on par or slightly worse



This is the movie I saw. Short of having had Rey wake up in her AT-AT on Jakku with the whole trilogy having been a dream, I don't see how it was going to be anything else though.

As a follow up, the old "Expanded Universe" got it right first time. This trilogy, not at all. I just don't think that Disney is able to handle Star Wars. I don't know whether George Lucas would be laughing with his billions or crying into his pillow at what they have done.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

I didn't mind it. It's completely absurd, but I didn't completely hate it like Attack Of The Clones. Yes it's a mess. It tries so hard to tie up every loose end imaginable and tripping over itself so many times, while the pace flailing maniacally in 2 overbloated hours. But I didn't mind it. I guess that's got to account to something. 

Also John Williams' score was fantastic. It's a great swansong and a fitting end to an incredible career. Thank you John Williams for all the fantastic movie music you have given to the world.


----------



## jwade

I rewatched VII on Saturday, and still really like it. 

I rewatched VIII on Sunday, and still really dislike it. 

I watched IX Tuesday morning, and enjoyed it. A few genuinely confusing choices, and some of the typical shoehorned-in cheese moments, but overall I’d say it was a solid 7-7.5/10. 

It’s really a shame they didn’t just give JJ the whole trilogy, there’s so much that would’ve been awesome to see fleshed out, instead of having two movies worth of ideas crammed into 140 minutes.


----------



## wankerness

Some of what’s the worst about this movie has nothing to do with the last movie and is pure JJ. Like, the dagger with ancient runes on it that also perfectly aligns to the Death Star if you’re standing in one specific spot, and it helps you find the thing that helps you find another thing and sfyhshsgxbx. Oh and it was dropped by a sith master who fell in a hole next to his spaceship and got eaten by a big worm, who also


Spoiler



has a boo-boo for Rey to heal to clumsily introduce a new power just so it didn’t come out of nowhere at the end.


 What a disaster of a plot line. They could have cut out all the way finder crap entirely and just had the dagger show the way to the planet, or better yet not have the dagger at all.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> Some of what’s the worst about this movie has nothing to do with the last movie and is pure JJ. Like, the dagger with ancient runes on it that also perfectly aligns to the Death Star if you’re standing in one specific spot, and it helps you find the thing that helps you find another thing and sfyhshsgxbx. Oh and it was dropped by a sith master who fell in a hole next to his spaceship and got eaten by a big worm, who also
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> has a boo-boo for Rey to heal to clumsily introduce a new power just so it didn’t come out of nowhere at the end.
> 
> 
> What a disaster of a plot line. They could have cut out all the way finder crap entirely and just had the dagger show the way to the planet, or better yet not have the dagger at all.



Can you imagine the nerd boners that would've emerged had they dropped one of these badboys instead of a dagger maguffin? God damn it makes me enraged just thinking about the missed opportunity.


----------



## Drew

Watched it on Monday, and just haven't been around a computer to weigh in until now.

Longer comments in spoiler tags, but I came into this with VERY low expectations, based on all this talk of retconning TLJ, and was relieved I liked it more than I expected.



Spoiler



First thing's first - this movie suffers from the same (IMO) fatal flaw as The Force Awakens - it's WAY too slavish, for critical plot elements, to the original trilogy. I came into this movie joking that if it ended with blowing up a bigger Death Star I'd be pissed. Instead, we got, at times, practically a shot-for-shot remake of the final throne room scene in Return of the Jedi, and a whole _fleet_ of mini Death Stars. I mean, jesus christ, try to think up your own plot devices. 

The Rey/Ben kiss was stupid. No attempt was made to sell a romance there, near as I can tell that was just JJ Abrams throwing internet fans a bone. That was just awkward. That said - the one thing this movie really impressed me with was using their weird connection - never fully explained in any of the movies - as a pretty cool mechanism in a fight scene. That one surprised me, pleasantly.

Admiral Hux? No point for that. Just don't let Chewie get picked up in the first place, cut that entire plot arc out of the story, and same some time to flesh out other things...

...like Abram's decision to just plop Palpatine into the story with nary a word of explanation. His laugh is in the trailer, and then the opening scroller is basically "yeah, so, um, we have a new big bad guy, and he's an old nemesis from the past!" I mean, if you're going to do it, fine - the idea isn't awful, absent Snoke you're pretty much tied to a showdown between Rey and Kylo and I get how that could be tricky - but at least do something to earn it, or make it a big surprise dropped on the audience partway through the movie. The most charitable explanation I can think of is Disney didn't think they'd be able to keep it a secret, so they just opened up about it, but come on. If you guys who hate TLJ get to be butt-hurt about Snoke getting killed off with nary a care, then I get to be butt-hurt about Palpatine getting shoved back into the story deus ex machina.

Similarly, the best I can say about Rey being a Palpatine was at least she wasn't a Skywalker after all. I thought one of the most interesting aspects of TLJ was the kid with the broom at the end and the overt acknowledgement that force-sensitive people are out there in the universe. The need to shoehorn her back into one of the established families... ehh... I don't think that was necessary.

The Kylo/Han Solo force ghost scene was actually kind of touching.



Idunno. I think the single biggest problem with the new trilogy is one both people who thought TLJ was a total debaclle, and a refreshing attempt to step away from some of the recycled tropes of TFA, can agree one - somehow, and much to my dumbfoundment, Disney appears to have never given their directors a central overarching storyline for the trilogy, and instead let them make it up on the fly. This leaves us with a trilogy with wildly different pacing, and plotlines working at times at cross purposes, or set up and then abandoned. You can say you preferred one approach to the other, and I'd rather have seen more of what Johnson brought to the table personally rather than A New Hope and Return of the Jedi remakes, but I'm really kinda shocked Disney didn't do a better job managing this.

I still enjoyed watching the movie, even for its numerous flaws, but I think not for nothing the real Star Wars story of December 2019 is Baby Yoda, and the fact this movie is sort of an afterthought in collective popular culture really isn't surprising.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Honestly, I quite liked the movie. Some parts did feel a bit "meh..." to me, but that is hardly enough to spoil it for me. I would have liked some parts to have been presented better in terms of story, but truth is that some things feeling like a bit of an asspull isn't new at all in the Star Wars universe, so there's that.


----------



## DudeManBrother

I’m not a huge Star Wars fan. I’ve seen most of the movies with friends, but don’t follow the stuff closely. IMO This whole trilogy was garbage. Nearly every character introduced was essentially pointless. The story arcs were underdeveloped, predictable, pointless; and many seemed to get abandoned mid story. 

Visually it was good, the fight choreography was cool, and it had its moments in each episode. Strip away all the meaningless plot lines and undeveloped characters; it was pretty much: The Resistance has no shot, yes it does! No, it doesn’t; yes it does! No, it doesn’t; yes it does! No, it doesn’t; YES IT DOES! End trilogy :/


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## Drew

Someone on another site pointed out to me that in the "companion guide" JJ Abrams also released, there's added context for the maybe-creepy "let's find out together" or some such line to the random black chick brought in evidently to give Finn someone else to flirt with. Turns out, JJ Abrams discloses in his companion guide, she doesn't know it but she's Lando's long-lost daughter, and will find that out on their adventures together.

I'm sorry, anyone who thinks _Rian Johnson_ was the problem with this trilogy is on crack.


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## c7spheres

Drew said:


> Someone on another site pointed out to me that in the "companion guide" JJ Abrams also released, there's added context for the maybe-creepy "let's find out together" or some such line to the random black chick brought in evidently to give Finn someone else to flirt with. Turns out, JJ Abrams discloses in his companion guide, she doesn't know it but she's Lando's long-lost daughter, and will find that out on their adventures together.
> 
> I'm sorry, anyone who thinks _Rian Johnson_ was the problem with this trilogy is on crack.


 Well at least they ain't brother and sister!


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## StevenC

Drew said:


> Someone on another site pointed out to me that in the "companion guide" JJ Abrams also released, there's added context for the maybe-creepy "let's find out together" or some such line to the random black chick brought in evidently to give Finn someone else to flirt with. Turns out, JJ Abrams discloses in his companion guide, she doesn't know it but she's Lando's long-lost daughter, and will find that out on their adventures together.
> 
> I'm sorry, anyone who thinks _Rian Johnson_ was the problem with this trilogy is on crack.


Rian Johnson wasn't the biggest problem is the most I'll give you. 

There was the obvious problem of taking a story by one dude and then throwing out his story and asking two people to write different sequels without ever talking to each other or watching the other's movie. 

Sure, some drafts had Palps not getting killed off until the 9th or 12th movie or whatever, but by the time Ep 6 came around they were killing him for real. Then inviting guys in to cobble together some random disconnected stories together and call them sequels.


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## Drew

StevenC said:


> Rian Johnson wasn't the biggest problem is the most I'll give you.
> 
> There was the obvious problem of taking a story by one dude and then throwing out his story and asking two people to write different sequels without ever talking to each other or watching the other's movie.
> 
> Sure, some drafts had Palps not getting killed off until the 9th or 12th movie or whatever, but by the time Ep 6 came around they were killing him for real. Then inviting guys in to cobble together some random disconnected stories together and call them sequels.


I mean, beyond everything else, I'm pretty dumbfounded Disney just turned a bunch of directors loose and told them to write a story, without bothering to piece together at least a skeletal overall plot. This is like Project Management 101, folks.


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## _MonSTeR_

The story line for the new trilogy might as well have been written by a bunch of 10 year olds playing with a bunch of star wars toys. Except most bunches of 10 year old Star Wars fans would have had better dialogue.

If it was written by 10 year olds, the plot-cohesion over the trilogy seems about right though... 10 year olds are awesome at retconning in the middle of a game. I was just waiting for someone’s mom to yell, “Rian, JJ time for dinner, kids!” somewhere in the movie.


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## KnightBrolaire

Drew said:


> Someone on another site pointed out to me that in the "companion guide" JJ Abrams also released, there's added context for the maybe-creepy "let's find out together" or some such line to the random black chick brought in evidently to give Finn someone else to flirt with. Turns out, JJ Abrams discloses in his companion guide, she doesn't know it but she's Lando's long-lost daughter, and will find that out on their adventures together.
> 
> I'm sorry, anyone who thinks _Rian Johnson_ was the problem with this trilogy is on crack.


Both directors were the problem. Rian can clearly write well when he wants to (looper/knives out/brick are all excellent films) but he should never be allowed near star wars again 

Honestly I think this latest trilogy as a whole is the worst thing since the star wars holiday special.


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## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> Both directors were the problem. Rian can clearly write well when he wants to (looper/knives out/brick are all excellent films) but he should never be allowed near star wars again
> 
> Honestly I think this latest trilogy as a whole is the worst thing since the star wars holiday special.


I keep thinking Peter jackson or Del Toro could have been so much more interesting directing these.


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## KnightBrolaire

The906 said:


> I keep thinking Peter jackson or Del Toro could have been so much more interesting directing these.


God I would have loved a Del Toro star wars film. Especially if he got to do a horror film in the Star Wars universe.


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## Seabeast2000

KnightBrolaire said:


> God I would have loved a Del Toro star wars film. Especially if he got to do a horror film in the Star Wars universe.


The horror background could have brought more .....something to a sterile screenplay. 
The other one I was thinking was Denis Villaneuve.


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## bostjan

The prequels had some good plotlines, but mediocre characters and horrible scripting and direction. I don't hate them, but I don't get the charm I get from the old ones.

The new trilogy has had horrible plot, with tangled balls of loose threads and nothing making continuity sense, but the characters and direction are great.

Anyone saying that IX is as bad as the Holiday Special is either being dramatic or has never seen the holiday special, but I don't see how anyone could place it ahead of even VI. Every film has flaws, and I sure couldn't have written a better script myself, but if you need the official guidebook and Fortnight to make sense of even the first half of the film, and the second half doesn't even make sense after all the extended stuff you can get your hands on, then maybe you need a better plot before you make a billion dollar movie.

The thing is, by budgeting this kind of money, they had no excuse to not hire a writer for the overall story.


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## StevenC

Literally all the characters in this new trilogy are terribly one dimensional, show no development and exist because the movie needed characters.


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## diagrammatiks

Drew said:


> Someone on another site pointed out to me that in the "companion guide" JJ Abrams also released, there's added context for the maybe-creepy "let's find out together" or some such line to the random black chick brought in evidently to give Finn someone else to flirt with. Turns out, JJ Abrams discloses in his companion guide, she doesn't know it but she's Lando's long-lost daughter, and will find that out on their adventures together.
> 
> I'm sorry, anyone who thinks _Rian Johnson_ was the problem with this trilogy is on crack.



I'd take answers to questions nobody asked, answered somewhere else nobody will ready 

over

fuck you and your questions. 

anyway.


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## TedEH

Drew said:


> [buncha spoilers]


Just saw this last night. I think I agree with your take so far, but there was a lot of movie there to process, so still trying to nail down my opinion.

Honestly, the thing that bothered me the most about the outing was that the only other group in the theater decided it was appropriate to toss their snacks all over the ground and storm out half way through the movie. I mean, I don't care what you thought of the film, don't take it out on the probably-minimum-wage cineplex employees who had nothing to do with the making of the film.

Some actual thoughts on the film though:


Spoiler



- I actually really enjoyed the last two movies a fair bit and felt like this was easily the weakest of the three.
- I got a real sense of "oh no, wrap everything up whatever way you can come up with". Ex machinas everywhere. Convenient nonsense to move things forward everywhere.
- Maybe a better way to put it is that it sort of feels like Abrams just ignored the previous film and tried to cram the rest of his original ideas into the one leftover movie. Had things been fleshed out properly over two films, maybe it would have made more sense.
- The way they had Leia suddenly just go "oh hey... I need to something something force something right now" in order to conveniently break up a fight at just the right moment felt like a cheap cop out. What about that fight prompted her to need to contact him right at that moment? Why does contacting people through the force kill her, but everyone else can do it without any problem?
- Agreed that the random kissing at the end was.... unnecessary? Not built up to at all? I was definitely waiting for the someone-is-gonna-kiss moment, 'cause it was coming, but so little of the relationships between characters was developed within the series so it wouldn't have made sense regardless of who it was. But I called it - someone's gonna make out by the time this film is out. And they did it. I think I see what it was going for in terms of "they built a connection through the force that was meaningful", but it didn't land.
- Palpatine's weird robot arm thing that he hangs from a-la Glados was a cool visual element. There weren't as many cool visual moments in this film as the last ones, but otherwise I think the visuals / effects / CG / etc are probably the strongest thing the film has going for it.
- I wondered if the fight scene over the water was meant to parallel the fight over the lava from the prequels. One was a fight over lava that results in the creation of Vader. The other is a fight over water that results in the destruction of this trilogy's Vader-analogue. I hope that was intentional in some way.


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## wankerness

StevenC said:


> Literally all the characters in this new trilogy are terribly one dimensional, show no development and exist because the movie needed characters.



kylo ren and Luke Skywalker showed development, if no one else. And plenty were there for other reasons. Like, the little alien guy in the new movie was there for merchandising opportunities!


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## Seabeast2000

JJ walking away from the final cut.


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## Quiet Coil

Well, I didn’t hate it. That said, I was was so divested in all of the characters by the end of TLJ that I felt very little emotional weight to anything in tRoS. Gotta say it was the last place I was expecting to see a Goonies reference though (at least that’s what I perceived)!


Spoiler



Also, it was cool to see Wedge pop up-but why oh why did they make him a lowly gunner!?


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## wankerness

What was the goonies reference? I remember someone mentioning that while I watched it, but I already forgot what it was.


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## Quiet Coil

wankerness said:


> What was the goonies reference? I remember someone mentioning that while I watched it, but I already forgot what it was.


“The lighthouse, the rock, and the restaurant”...


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## StevenC

wankerness said:


> kylo ren and Luke Skywalker showed development, if no one else. And plenty were there for other reasons. Like, the little alien guy in the new movie was there for merchandising opportunities!


Luke was angry and died after seemingly taking 30 years to remember what he learned at the end of RotJ.


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## Drew

KnightBrolaire said:


> Honestly I think this latest trilogy as a whole is the worst thing since the star wars holiday special.


Yopu must have been pretty young when Ep. I came out, I'll forgive you for not remembering/understanding how unbelievably bad that one was.  II was pretty rough too, only III of the prequels felt anything like a decent Star Wars movie.





TedEH said:


> Just saw this last night. I think I agree with your take so far, but there was a lot of movie there to process, so still trying to nail down my opinion.
> Some actual thoughts on the film though:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> - I actually really enjoyed the last two movies a fair bit and felt like this was easily the weakest of the three.
> - I got a real sense of "oh no, wrap everything up whatever way you can come up with". Ex machinas everywhere. Convenient nonsense to move things forward everywhere.
> - Maybe a better way to put it is that it sort of feels like Abrams just ignored the previous film and tried to cram the rest of his original ideas into the one leftover movie. Had things been fleshed out properly over two films, maybe it would have made more sense.
> - The way they had Leia suddenly just go "oh hey... I need to something something force something right now" in order to conveniently break up a fight at just the right moment felt like a cheap cop out. What about that fight prompted her to need to contact him right at that moment? Why does contacting people through the force kill her, but everyone else can do it without any problem?
> - Agreed that the random kissing at the end was.... unnecessary? Not built up to at all? I was definitely waiting for the someone-is-gonna-kiss moment, 'cause it was coming, but so little of the relationships between characters was developed within the series so it wouldn't have made sense regardless of who it was. But I called it - someone's gonna make out by the time this film is out. And they did it. I think I see what it was going for in terms of "they built a connection through the force that was meaningful", but it didn't land.
> - Palpatine's weird robot arm thing that he hangs from a-la Glados was a cool visual element. There weren't as many cool visual moments in this film as the last ones, but otherwise I think the visuals / effects / CG / etc are probably the strongest thing the film has going for it.
> - I wondered if the fight scene over the water was meant to parallel the fight over the lava from the prequels. One was a fight over lava that results in the creation of Vader. The other is a fight over water that results in the destruction of this trilogy's Vader-analogue. I hope that was intentional in some way.


Great observations, and I think I see eye to eye with you on a lot of this, particularly #3. Good call on GLADOS. 

My girlfriend hasn't seen it yet so I'll be watching it again shortly - I'll circle back once I've seen how it stacks up on a second viewing.


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## philkilla

TRoS was a total clusterfuck.

It is not even worth trying to make sense of any of the plot points, because there wasn't any; it was just moving from one macguffin to the next, with heavy doses of cringe layered between them.

The only redeemable parts of the film were a few of the scenes with Ren and Rey. 

GG Disney and Kathleen Kennedy; way to take what was a cool story, and turn it into ash.


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## ExileMetal

I agree with the comment about the original expanded universe being superior to the sequel trilogy; that’s why I originally slightly disliked this trilogy. TFA was at least an entertaining movie, despite it overwriting all of the books and imagination of that universe.

However, this movie is the worst for me by a huge margin, because it does far worse - it overwrites things from the original trilogy.


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## Drew

The906 said:


> I keep thinking Peter jackson or Del Toro could have been so much more interesting directing these.


I have a friend who to this day refers to him as "Peter 'The Destroyer' Jackson" for what he did to The Hobbit. Mention his name and she starts ranting about bunnies and sleighs. Hard pass. 

I think the real problem here is Disney, more than any other factor. There was evidently no plot direction given here. I think Johnson's moves were more to my _taste_, but at the end of the day the issues I have with Adams' choices would have been less pronounced had we not gone in a totally different direction in the midpoint. 

That said - what I'm dying to know is why Rian Johnson _turned Disney down_ when he was offered a chance to write and direct the third. That would have at least given us a consistent 2 and 3, and the first movie's retelling of Empire Strikes Back would have been no big deal in that context.


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## StevenC

Drew said:


> I have a friend who to this day refers to him as "Peter 'The Destroyer' Jackson" for what he did to The Hobbit. Mention his name and she starts ranting about bunnies and sleighs. Hard pass.
> 
> I think the real problem here is Disney, more than any other factor. There was evidently no plot direction given here. I think Johnson's moves were more to my _taste_, but at the end of the day the issues I have with Adams' choices would have been less pronounced had we not gone in a totally different direction in the midpoint.
> 
> That said - what I'm dying to know is why Rian Johnson _turned Disney down_ when he was offered a chance to write and direct the third. That would have at least given us a consistent 2 and 3, and the first movie's retelling of Empire Strikes Back would have been no big deal in that context.


Because he had no ideas how to finish it off either.


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## Drew

StevenC said:


> Because he had no ideas how to finish it off either.


Potentially.


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## diagrammatiks

Finally got around to seeing it.

I thought it was fine. A lot of mcguffins and it was more a serious of scenes that happened than a cohesive movie. 

But if I had to fix the mess of the second movie I'd have a hard time too.

In my mind everything up to the first big reveal is now the second movie. Everything after that is the third movie.

What I think is funny is that all the people that have hard-ons for the second movie are complaining like what the hell how come that one guy is still ....

Well, I think the answer is obvious right...his parents were nobody and he didn't feel like dying.


----------



## wankerness

Drew said:


> That said - what I'm dying to know is why Rian Johnson _turned Disney down_ when he was offered a chance to write and direct the third. That would have at least given us a consistent 2 and 3, and the first movie's retelling of Empire Strikes Back would have been no big deal in that context.



My guess would be that working in the Star Wars universe with a million people breathing down your neck is far, far less fun than making something you have control over, like Knives Out.


----------



## Drew

wankerness said:


> My guess would be that working in the Star Wars universe with a million people breathing down your neck is far, far less fun than making something you have control over, like Knives Out.


Fair point.


----------



## Vegetta

since apparently falling from great heights means you will just return years later they should have ended the Movie with Mace Windu Bursting into Palpatines room saying "I said you were under arrest".


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## _MonSTeR_

Vegetta said:


> they should have ended the Movie with Mace Windu Bursting into Palpatines room saying "I said you were under arrest".



Yes!!! I would loved that to have been the ending!!! This is a much better film than the one I saw at the cinema!


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## Drew

Yeah... I mean, it wasn't like TROS wasn't a fun movie to watch or anything... it was just SUCH a missed opportunity. The twist with Rey's parents was ham-fisted and kind of dumb, the fact Palpatine got dropped back into the movie in the scrolling intro may have been a clumsier example of deus ex machina than those stupid bigger fish eating the little fish about to eat the sub in Ep I, and what the fuck was up with the kiss at the end? There were some legitimately great and inventive moments, but on the while the thing was just too slavish to the original trillogy, and too unwilling to do ANYTHING that hadn't been done before.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

“I *said *you were *un*der_ a_*rrest!”*

I can just hear that in Samuel L Jackson’s voice so clearly. In my mind this is now canon and Disney is dead to me.


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## Quiet Coil

Anyone else notice that...


Spoiler



Luke’s “sunken x-wing” got the ol’ switcheroo? It was the newer model (T70?) in TLJ which I thought was lame. Apparently JJ did too and decided to pull a hardline retcon.



Not that it matters one bit, just thought it was funny.


----------



## StevenC

Noisy Humbucker said:


> Anyone else notice that...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Luke’s “sunken x-wing” got the ol’ switcheroo? It was the newer model (T70?) in TLJ which I thought was lame. Apparently JJ did too and decided to pull a hardline retcon.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that it matters one bit, just thought it was funny.


Just because Han flies a hundred year old piece of junk doesn't mean Luke has to too.


----------



## wankerness

Did you really notice that without reading about it on some site?


----------



## Quiet Coil

wankerness said:


> Did you really notice that without reading about it on some site?


Yeah, but I’m a dork for aircraft (even fictional ones).

First time I saw TLJ I assumed it was his old fighter in the ocean, then realized it wasn’t upon my second viewing (that shot lasts for all of a second).


----------

