# Inconsistent Picking Motion Advice



## groverj3 (May 25, 2014)

I was reading another thread here and it got me thinking...

So, this isn't really any groundbreaking but I was just thinking about all the advice I've gotten over the years about how to increase my picking speed... and how most of it is utter nonsense. I've found that lots of people who are great pickers tend not to analyze their own technique that closely and give out advice that contradicts what they actually do.

For example:

1. I took lessons from a guy when I was in high school, and he was a great picker. He played with a closed picking hand, which I had been told not to do by previous teachers. It worked for him, which is fine. However, he was adamant that his was the only correct way and that I should try to do if possible. I ignored this due to many players I liked and knew had good technique, and were even better at fast alternate picking than he, using other techniques. He also swore that his entire picking motion was wrist only. Which was simply not true if you watched him play, he engaged his elbow when going really fast. The irony is that he was a huge Vai fan, and Steve Vai definitely does NOT use closed hand picking.

2. I worked through a lot of the exercises in Michael Angelo Batio's Speed Kills video. Say what you want about the man, but he has chops. He mentioned in the video that you must pick fast how you pick slow. However, if you watched him, once he hit about 150 bpm he would also transition to a picking motion that involved his shoulder and elbow. Which was distinctly different than his motion when playing slow.

3. I believe in Rock Discipline John Petrucci also says something about picking fast how you pick slow. Yet, he's another player that uses a combined wrist and elbow motion when speeding up above about 150bpm. He also anchors his picking hand, something which I do and was always told not to do. Sure, that would be an issue if you stiffly anchored your hand, but hardly anyone does that.

I'm sure there are more examples. However, I've come to the conclusion recently that whenever I hear people saying anything about picking technique they're probably not worth listening to.

There are probably things which really do matter, but they aren't any of the things mentioned above. In fact, there are only two players I can really think of off the top of my head (I'm sure there are more) that use a completely consistent picking motion when playing fast or slow. Yngwie and Michael Romeo, who both use wrist-based picking exclusively, regardless of the speed that they play at.

Has anyone else noticed this? That players who have good technique tend not to analyze their own technique, and give out advice which contradicts what they actually do.


----------



## Maniacal (May 25, 2014)

Wrist all the time, I will only use elbow if I am trying to really exaggerate a riff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5eGgbdhAfQ

And I _do_ practice the same way slow and fast.

The reason people change to elbow picking at a certain tempo is to push their speed, but at the cost of good technique. For example Rusty Cooley, terrible technique. Sure he can play fast, but his fast playing is pretty sloppy when you slow it down. He also seems to play fast for short periods of time = tension. 

Best thing to practice is simple exercises for long periods of time and only up the metronome by 1 bpm or so each week. This takes serious discipline.

Check out these Cooley videos, his playing is seriously sloppy. The only thing his technique is good for is super fast playing on 1 string. The descending fours video at the end will prove this, look how slow his 4s are in relation to everything else. 

http://troygrady.com/codearchive/rusty/


----------



## groverj3 (May 25, 2014)

I can't believe that wrist-only is the only way to play accurately. There are too many players that don't do this and play perfectly fine. Such as John Petrucci. Sure, the difference isn't as great as Cooley but it's real.

It certainly looks better but all the evidence I've seen points to there being more than one way to accurately, and efficiently, alternate pick.


----------



## groverj3 (May 25, 2014)

That's really only one example of what I was getting at though. The main idea behind the post was that there are lots of people who give advice in a "my way or the highway" tone, but actually don't do what they say.


----------



## 80H (May 26, 2014)

Human biological mechanisms have a lot of depth to them. Every single factor is not yet completely determined. There is no formal society investing billions of dollars into every bio-mechanical motion of the human body that can accurately define exactly what perfection on a person-to-person basis is going to be. Your genes make a difference. Some people have certain strengths, some people have certain weaknesses. Looking for a catch-all misses a lot of the catch-you. 

The reality is that some people get carpal tunnel easier than others. Some people are just plain f*cked in that regard, and it sucks. Nobody wants to see their friend deal w/carpal tunnel when playing guitar is something they love. It happens though. Same with fasciitis. Same with dystonia. Same with cramps. Same with overproductive sweat glands. Same with memory. Same with nerves. Same with creativity. Sometimes it can be overcome, sometimes it must be worked with. Some peoples' muscles recover slow. Some fast. 

When it comes to technique, you're supposed to be finding what works with your body. You need to understand your elbow and what it does, your shoulder and what it does, your wrist and what it does, etc. If there is something that you can't handle, you can't handle it. If you can, you can. The logic is very simple, and the only way to deal with it beyond practice and exercise is some form of intervention towards your biology. You have to pay attention to yourself specifically, and that takes a lot of very concentrated focus in a way that does not necessarily involve your guitar first. You need to turn your attention towards your anatomy. Other than that, you'd need direct outside assistance. Could be a doctor, could be medicine, could be supplements, whatever. The reality is that the field still has its undefined points of interest. It's not done yet. 

That's one of the problems though. Some people get certain over exactly what works for them, so when they tell you what to do, they really are telling you the truth, but they're telling you _their_ truth. You don't know if it applies to you until you've made yourself certain with your own eyes. 

I have pushed my wrists and elbows and shoulders to the absolute limit, doctors had to get involved, and I came back from it. I got better for it. I could have been out of action for it, but I did everything I could and I feel great. A lot of people can't achieve my personal technique, not because they can't certainly, but because they don't even know if they can yet. There is a membrane there that they haven't tested yet and it takes time and a lot of patience. And it's a risk, and your gambling with yourself here. If you don't really want it, the risk isn't worth it. Your motor function over some silly-ass instrument...I wouldn't risk it if I were them. But I did


----------



## Hollowway (May 26, 2014)

The best coaches are usually not the best players. The best players don't usually make the best coaches. Same thing here. These guys just do it, and don't really know what is making them good. Probably the best teachers out there could help, but they don't have a name for themselves so no one would know who they are even if they were to post a lesson.


----------



## groverj3 (May 26, 2014)

Good points, all.

Maniacal: I did not mean to imply that your technique is wrong or anything, just for clarification. You're a heck of a lot better than I am  I'm just saying that I don't buy that there's only one correct picking technique (which I don't think was your point either, also just for clarification).

80H: I totally agree with the variability in human biology giving rise to individuals which have different strengths are recovery times in terms of guitar-playing and pushing themselves. Some people naturally have easier time with certain physical motions than others due to their individual biology. This is why I don't buy into the one size fits all approach to teaching and technique in many circumstances.

Hollowway: Completely agree as well. Lots of great players are just like "well, I do this" and don't take the time to really sit down an analyze it. There are probably great teachers out there as well.

I just thought this was an interesting topic that warranted discussion since so many people are always wondering how to improve their technique. Sure, there are likely certain motions that will limit you or make it harder to achieve the same accuracy, but there are probably a limited variety of picking techniques that all will work based on the individual.


----------



## EmaDaCuz (May 26, 2014)

I play 99% of the time by moving my wrist only, when I need the extra boost or I get very tired I let the elbow kick in. But I rather play clean than fast, so maybe I am not the best example here.
As for improving the techniques... I changed the way I play several times over 25 years. I started off as a classical guitarist and I still have that imprinting. It gives me a very neat and defined sound, but hyper speed is simply not achievable. To get faster, I progressively modified the angle of my picking hand and "closing" the three fingers that are not involved in picking. Now I found a good compromise by adopting a intermediate picking angle and leaning the pinky and the ring finger on the pick guard. I use them as a lever to "push" me up when picking upward (or downward, from higher to lower notes on different strings, so descending notes).

Also, I found that the position of the picking have a major effect on the picking motion/technique. My way of playing works only if I am in the middle of the bridge and neck pickups. If I move more towards the bridge I tend to open the hand a lot and work with the elbow, if I move to the neck I rather favour a more "classical" approach.

All this to say that there is no unique technique to achieve a given results, and everybody is different. And you are different from yourself too, the elasticity or the muscle tone may be different over the years and allow/force you to find a more suitable technique.


----------



## Santuzzo (May 26, 2014)

Maniacal said:


> Best thing to practice is simple exercises for long periods of time and only up the metronome by 1 bpm or so each week. This takes serious discipline.



This is great advice!


----------



## Andless (May 27, 2014)

groverj3 said:


> 3. I believe in Rock Discipline John Petrucci also says something about picking fast how you pick slow. Yet, he's another player that uses a combined wrist and elbow motion when speeding up above about 150bpm. He also anchors his picking hand, something which I do and was always told not to do.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed this? That players who have good technique tend not to analyze their own technique, and give out advice which contradicts what they actually do.



I do the anchoring too - not excessively but from time to time. In my classical training and for most people this is a no-no, but I've started to accept it actually helps me from time to time. 

And, I think that also the very good players break their own rules when approaching their own limits.



Maniacal said:


> Best thing to practice is simple exercises for long periods of time and only up the metronome by 1 bpm or so each week. This takes serious discipline.



Not saying you are wrong, but for me a 1 bpm increase would kill my will to practice, and this is not to be sneered at. Small increases when you approach your limit maybe for me...



Hollowway said:


> The best coaches are usually not the best players. The best players don't usually make the best coaches. Same thing here. These guys just do it, and don't really know what is making them good. Probably the best teachers out there could help, but they don't have a name for themselves so no one would know who they are even if they were to post a lesson.



This is very true and often applies to academia too. Being brilliant at something and being able to teach others how to become better or even brilliant themselves are two different skill sets. Great if they combine, but rare.




EmaDaCuz said:


> I play 99% of the time by moving my wrist only, when I need the extra boost or I get very tired I let the elbow kick in.



I must admit I don't actually know if I'm using my elbow when picking or not . Most of it is wrist as for most people I guess, but I found out that if I push myself in some exercises I actually start moving my thumb and (index finger). I've seen Paul Gilbert do this (for a different purpose) and was kinda caught by surprise when I noticed what I was doing.


----------



## Maniacal (May 27, 2014)

^ I agree with you, it is tough. But it works


----------



## EmaDaCuz (May 27, 2014)

Andless said:


> I must admit I don't actually know if I'm using my elbow when picking or not . Most of it is wrist as for most people I guess [...]



You would be surprised to see how many "elbow grinders" are out there, especially in the death/black metal scene


----------



## Andless (May 27, 2014)

Oh, and anchoring, I just did a quick search to see if MAB could teach me a trick or two, and lo and behold, more anchoring:



At 1:35, MAB does anchoring not too dissimilar what I do at times.


----------



## groverj3 (May 27, 2014)

Andless said:


> Oh, and anchoring, I just did a quick search to see if MAB could teach me a trick or two, and lo and behold, more anchoring:
> 
> 
> 
> At 1:35, MAB does anchoring not too dissimilar what I do at times.




His picking style is pretty bizarre. I just find it humorous that he specifically mentions in that instructional video "You must pick fast how you pick slow" then proceeds to completely ignore his own advice 

When he picks slow he seems to use a combination of wrist and thumb/index finger movement. When he picks fast it's a weird mix of wrist, elbow, and shoulder. It's really quite obvious that he does NOT pick fast how he picks slow.

As far as anchoring, I definitely anchor but not all the time. Also, when picking fast I tend to have sort of a "half open" hand where my fingers to touch the guitar body, pickup ring, or pickup, but they aren't locked in place.


----------



## Maniacal (May 27, 2014)

He never accents his runs either, not a fan of that style of picking.


----------

