# New Fractal Floor Modeler



## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

Thoughts?
https://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/190423-Fractal-Audio-Announces-the-FM3-Amp-Modeler-MultiFX.pdf

I just can't see spending that coin on something that I still need an external controller and EXP pedal for. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna be stoked on it, though.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 23, 2019)

ARES MODELING!!!!


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

It was a matter of time before they lowered the cost of entry even further than the previous floor units.

At $1k it's hard not to take this over $100 more expensive Helix LT. As you said, the only limiting factor is the lack of hardware controls, but I'd say the amount of players that need that is relatively limited.

Also, as far as a fringe benefit, get ready for the price of older rack units (Ultra, II, II+) to dive further, which is pretty cool too.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

It's the same price as the AX8 was, but they had to neuter the controls even more to get the cost the same. Maybe its just my cognitive bias, but I don't see the point of making it a floor unit if you need a couple more floor units to use all of the features. But then again, they don't even put EXP pedals on the controllers for their rack gear, so I guess it follows suit.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 23, 2019)

I'm wondering if this'll be like the AX8 where it'll be limited to one amp model and a couple of effects art once? I'm reading the press release and I see nothing about it. If this runs as much shit as an Axe FX III can, then I might actually have to ditch my Helix Floor.  The main thing that killed my interest in the AX8 was how limited it can be as times.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> It's the same price as the AX8 was, but they had to neuter the controls even more to get the cost the same. Maybe its just my cognitive bias, but I don't see the point of making it a floor unit if you need a couple more floor units to use all of the features. But then again, they don't even put EXP pedals on the controllers for their rack gear, so I guess it follows suit.



The AX8 is $1300, you're thinking the FX8. 

At the bottom: https://shop.fractalaudio.com/

Expression pedals are cheap ($30 all day), and by not building it in you can choose one that has the feel and footprint that you prefer.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 23, 2019)

yeah a bit expensive for what it is. So spend 1k for this then add another 499 for the smallest FC6 footswitch. Then add a 200 exp pedal. Agh. Id just take a used AX8 at 800 bucks and get the cheapest used mission pedal. 

I just use the 5150 and Cameron sims anyway lol


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

Should have made in the same price and added more than three buttons, lol.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 23, 2019)

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...deler-fx-processor.149900/page-3#post-1779239

Looks like it'll be just as powerful as the AX8. Was expecting it, but damn.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Should have made in the same price and added more than three buttons, lol.



What exactly do you need more footswitches for? 

If you can configure scenes like the rack units you should be able to route control flexibly enough to make whatever changes needed on the fly, it just might take a few more minutes of programming.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 23, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...deler-fx-processor.149900/page-3#post-1779239
> 
> Looks like it'll be just as powerful as the AX8. Was expecting it, but damn.



Well, that's a let down if it is almost the same as the AX8's processing power. No dual amps. Limid high resolution effects and cabs.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 23, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Well, that's a let down if it is almost the same as the AX8's processing power. No dual amps. Limid high resolution effects and cabs.



Was confirmed later in the thread that it's only single amp, and lacks some of the effects the full-sized Axe III has.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 23, 2019)

Tssss for that price you would expect a bump in power. Kinda disappointed tbh.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> What exactly do you need more footswitches for?
> 
> If you can configure scenes like the rack units you should be able to route control flexibly enough to make whatever changes needed on the fly, it just might take a few more minutes of programming.


looks like you get three scenes at a time, three FX on/off at time, or three presets, unless one of those switches is reserved for changing the footswitch modes. I use 4-5 snapshots/song most of the time (dirt, dirt with gates off, dirt with gates off and a midboost and some delay, dirt with gates on an a different delay, clean with mod, clean without mod, pushed clean with autowah, just as an example). I'm not like mad about it or anything, lol, I just think Fractal banks really hard on their "superior modeling" and then sells dongles to make their devices do what most of the other ones already do.


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## Andromalia (Apr 23, 2019)

From the spec sheet, that's way enough for 99% of the gigging musicians. (If you buy a floor unit you're a gigging musician, right ?)
A lot of the axe III features only make sense in a studio environment (I mean, I have mixing and mastering chain presets in the damn box) and you don't need all that for a live rig unless you're Devin Townsend and Steve Lukather's offspring.

I'm not sire the knobs are solid enough to be stomped on by mistake though. which *will* happen to someone. They work fine on the III but those are going to be more exposed to accidents.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 23, 2019)

I'm either buying one of these or a used AX8 to replace my Mooer Preamp Live.
Honestly, probably going to go with this since I have all of my Axe-Fx III presets I want to port. Too much of a sound difference between the III and the older units (granted I never got to try Ares on the II before I sold it).

I can buy one of these new for what is was going to cost me to get a complete travel rig going with the Mooer Preamp Live.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

hnnnnnngggg


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 23, 2019)

I'm surprised this didn't come out long ago. Cool idea, depending on the signal chain limitations it would suit a lot of players live or studio.


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## sakeido (Apr 23, 2019)

I'm on the waitlist 

traded my Axe 2 for a PRS, didn't miss it for the longest time. went back to tube amps with a loadbox to get power amp saturation and silent recording when I needed it... then I started playing gigs again. the list of amps I wanted to buy at $1,500+ a pop started to grow very long and my resolve gets shakier by the day. my pedal collection was growing by half a dozen pedals a year and those aren't exactly free either 

time to stop the bleeding and go back to a modeler. this thing may be limited in some respects but the AD/DA on the new units is so transparent you can run footpedals in the loop without killing your tone. Fractal came out with that new Ares modeling which sounds absolutely fantastic. I was fully back on board when a buddy blind tested me Axe 2 vs. 3 vs. a real amp. huge step forwards. nobody else is close on modeling anymore, I don't think. this unit is worth it just for that. I really didn't expect the price to be this low

it sucks that I won't be able to use 300 tap delays with 75 second reverb tails and four amp blocks in my SunnO))))))/shoegaze/atmospheric decay fusion jam band but oh well I guess I'll depend on good old fashioned songwriting instead 

I'm so excited to hurry up and wait six months to get mine


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## JD27 (Apr 23, 2019)

I just got my AX8 last Black Friday. This would have been perfect for me, I don’t use half the crap on the AX8 anyway, plus it’s using the newer ARES modeling.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

to add, are they going to intentionally ignore updating the AX8 firmware in the hope people buy this instead?

The Axe II got that final update. Will AX8 users?


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 23, 2019)

Thank god I keep spending all the money I saved for the helix stomp on used prestige’s. 

Was waiting for this. Perfect form factor and you add hardware thingies as necessary.


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## Jeff (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> to add, are they going to intentionally ignore updating the AX8 firmware in the hope people buy this instead?
> 
> The Axe II got that final update. Will AX8 users?



This thought process boggles my mind. Did the AX8 work for your needs when you bought it? It's also received several updates since its release. How much entitlement is necessary?


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## sakeido (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> to add, are they going to intentionally ignore updating the AX8 firmware in the hope people buy this instead?
> 
> The Axe II got that final update. Will AX8 users?



I had been looking at the AX8 just this morning. It has gotten some of the Ares modeling updates too but is limited by the processing power it has.

Fractal post-purchase support is seriously the best in the industry, I don't know how much more you can really expect.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

think you guys misunderstood my post haha. I wasnt complaining. I was merely asking if they might do that as a business strategy lol

my AX8 sounds and feels amazing on 10.1 and Ive already enticed my bands other guitarist to register interest in the FM3 haha


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## Jeff (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> think you guys misunderstood my post haha. I wasnt complaining. I was merely asking if they might do that as a business strategy lol
> 
> my AX8 sounds and feels amazing on 10.1 and Ive already enticed my bands other guitarist to register interest in the FM3 haha



I don't think it's as a business strategy, as Cliff has already stated that they've eeked out more updates than they had thought possible with the AX8.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I don't think it's as a business strategy, as Cliff has already stated that they've eeked out more updates than they had thought possible with the AX8.


yeah I read earlier that the main guy who helped with coding on the AX8 and was the guy who helped convert the other units Firmware to being compatible with the AX8, no longer works there. So really the fact we have had ANY recent AX8 updates is a miracle and a testament to the excellent customer service!!

I do not regret going Fractal at all. What a refreshing change they are coming from a long time Line 6 user where I had to pay extra for updates after buying the units new (new amp models etc).


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## Xaios (Apr 23, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> At $1k it's hard not to take this over $100 more expensive Helix LT. As you said, the only limiting factor is the lack of hardware controls, but I'd say the amount of players that need that is relatively limited.


It seems to me that this is really somewhere in between the Helix LT and Helix Stomp. The control interface clearly takes a cue from the Stomp, but then is juxtaposed against an I/O suite that is as robust as that on the LT (and then has scribble strips to boot, something which only the Helix Floor and Helix Control have). If we're talking about features that have relatively limited utility for most players, I'm certain more joe-average players would see more use cases for more buttons and a built-in expression pedal out of the box than this level of I/O. Not that it won't sell, I'm certain it will and will be loved by those who buy it, but it will be based on the name and reputation of Fractal's internals and software as premium products, and that will be to players who were already looking for Fractal specifically to introduce a product similar in form and function to the Stomp, not to average players looking for an all-in-one modelling pedal, regardless of whether or not those players would really _actually _make use of all the controls on something like the LT.


GunpointMetal said:


> I just think Fractal banks really hard on their "superior modeling" and then sells dongles to make their devices do what most of the other ones already do.


So, does that make Fractal the Apple of the modeling world? 


lewis said:


> I do not regret going Fractal at all. What a refreshing change they are coming from a long time Line 6 user where I had to pay extra for updates after buying the units new (new amp models etc).


That's definitely a fair criticism, and as a PodFarm user, something that definitely pissed me off. However, I don't think they do this anymore; since they brought out the Helix, I believe all the updates, including several new amp models and effects, have been free. (I don't know for sure as I don't own a Helix pedal or Helix Native, so someone else should confirm.)


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

Xaios said:


> It seems to me that this is really somewhere in between the Helix LT and Helix Stomp. The control interface clearly takes a cue from the Stomp, but then is juxtaposed against an I/O suite that is as robust as that on the LT (and then has scribble strips to boot, something which only the Helix Floor and Helix Control have). If we're talking about features that have relatively limited utility for most players, I'm certain more joe-average players would see more use cases for more buttons and a built-in expression pedal out of the box than this level of I/O. Not that it won't sell, I'm certain it will and will be loved by those who buy it, but it will be based on the name and reputation of Fractal's internals and software as premium products, and that will be to players who were already looking for Fractal specifically to introduce a product similar in form and function to the Stomp, not to average players looking for an all-in-one modelling pedal, regardless of whether or not those players would really _actually _make use of all the controls on something like the LT.
> 
> So, does that make Fractal the Apple of the modeling world?
> 
> That's definitely a fair criticism, and as a PodFarm user, something that definitely pissed me off. However, I don't think they do this anymore; since they brought out the Helix, I believe all the updates, including several new amp models and effects, have been free. (I don't know for sure as I don't own a Helix pedal or Helix Native, so someone else should confirm.)



I guess I just remember the "battle of the buttons" from the late 90's/early 00's where companies like Boss, Digitech, Zoom, and the like were trying to add as many footswitchs, expression pedals, controllers, lights, etc. to these mammoth effects units and how absolutely useless most of it was. That's why you don't see that much variation on control surfaces these days. 

Then again, I've down sized my foot controllers twice, so I'm probably biased. 

To the Apple analogy, I suppose this is equivalent to someone going with an iPhone XR vs. a Samsung Galaxy S10. Some just want access to the particular ecosystem, where others want major specs. Of course, both will work for 99% of people, but it depends on what the user values more.


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## Xaios (Apr 23, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> To the Apple analogy, I suppose this is equivalent to someone going with an iPhone XR vs. a Samsung Galaxy S10. Some just want access to the particular ecosystem, where others want major specs. Of course, both will work for 99% of people, but it depends on what the user values more.


Just for the record, my comparison to Apple wasn't intended to be strictly negative (even as an Android user). One thing Apple does do extremely well is support their hardware with software updates for _waaaay_ longer than any Android manufacturer, which is also apparently something that Fractal excels at.

Of course, like Apple, I also can't read the Axe-FX forum without breaking out into hives due to the level of condescension on display by the people that post there.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

Xaios said:


> Just for the record, my comparison to Apple wasn't intended to be strictly negative (even as an Android user). One thing Apple does do extremely well is support their hardware with software updates for _waaaay_ longer than any Android manufacturer, which is also apparently something that Fractal excels at.
> 
> Of course, like Apple, I also can't read the Axe-FX forum without breaking out into hives due to the level of condescension on display by the people that post there.



I didn't mean to imply any negativity either. 

I definitely know what you're saying about the Fractal forum. I tend to avoid it outside of when new updates come out.


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## Albake21 (Apr 23, 2019)

I got so excited for this until I saw it's the same power and limit of 1 amp like my AX8. I guess I'll still stick with my AX8. I do really like the fact that it's smaller now. I know some of you don't like that, but this allows for me to build off of the AxeFX with real pedals.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 23, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> I got so excited for this until I saw it's the same power and limit of 1 amp like my AX8. I guess I'll still stick with my AX8. I do really like the fact that it's smaller now. I know some of you don't like that, but this allows for me to build off of the AxeFX with real pedals.


Yeah, this is honestly the only thing I'm disappointed by. But I rarely use two amps at the same time. It was really just for convenience of having multiple settings within the same patch.


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## c7spheres (Apr 23, 2019)

Must have more info! : ) I want to know exactly what it has inside and what it can do. Looks like it would be a good utilitarian type box too. Stick it in a rack rig or use it at home or for easy going jams/gigs. It would be a great 1 off box for that stuff you only use on a song or 2 compared to buying those effects separately, or for the IR block too when recording and headphone jamming. I know it's a great value, it appears, but $1k? Maybe, if it can do what I want.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 23, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Must have more info! : ) I want to know exactly what it has inside and what it can do. Looks like it would be a good utilitarian type box too. Stick it in a rack rig or use it at home or for easy going jams/gigs. It would be a great 1 off box for that stuff you only use on a song or 2 compared to buying those effects separately, or for the IR block too when recording and headphone jamming. I know it's a great value, it appears, but $1k? Maybe, if it can do what I want.



Did you read the press release at the link? or are you looking for specific effects or something?


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## c7spheres (Apr 24, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Did you read the press release at the link? or are you looking for specific effects or something?


Yeah, I read it. I would like to see the manual or editor to see the actual parameters. This has been an issue I've had in decideing to whether even do a trial on the AxeII and now the AxeIII. I want to see a manual with a list of all the parameters etc, like other processors often have. On the AxeII an editor finally came out that I could look at and see the actual values of low to high etc for everything and that really helped. With the AxeIII you actually have to connect the unit apparently just to launch it, so now I can't see the entire parameter ranges. There's a ton of stuff I want to know, not just a couple things. I contacted Cliff about it and I was just told to get it and if you don't like it after 15 days you can get a refund, which is great, but I don't have the extra to just put up like that, plus if it all checks out in what I want it to do then as long as the sound quality and feel is there, which it seems like it is, than I would just keep it. It's little stuff like the Eq band range, experimenting with how much you can load at once, how the mixer affects things, etc. Just a ton of stuff which I could never do in 15 days. So I figure what I'll do eventually is learn as much as I can and get one and try it out during an extended break or something to figure it out. I'm real familiar with using all kinds of stuff so it's not a learning curve worry, It's a does it do this list of stuff to do at the level I want. It appears to but I know better when it comes to any piece of gear that short comings are found down the road in obscure situations. I still use racks and dedicated pieces for everything and have been down the "magic box" rabbit hole more times than I want. By the time I get around to it, the Axe III might even be obsolete. I have a friend with the AxeIIXL+ and like it, but didn't get to spend enough time with it. I later found out some short comings that were deal breakers on that for me, like loop length and Eq bandwidth etc, which I know are up to par now in the Axe3. Once, if ever, there is an offline editor for AxeIII, I'll check that out, make patches and once the cash is in hand I will get one on trial. One thing that also turns me off is the lack of warranty. I mean, for that kinda cash it should be at least 5 years. $100 Boss pedals come with a 5 year warranty and you step on those. I'm looking for a total rig replacement with the III, as I have what I want now in refrigerator rack form. I will put an Axe through it's paces over the course of a year or more and A/B it with my actual rig and see how it does in every situation. If It's up to par then I would be happy at that time to liquidate some gear and free up some cash, maybe. But This new unit looks great for a stick-it in the rack jack of all trades type unit.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 24, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Yeah, I read it. I would like to see the manual or editor to see the actual parameters. This has been an issue I've had in decideing to whether even do a trial on the AxeII and now the AxeIII. I want to see a manual with a list of all the parameters etc, like other processors often have. ON the AxeII an editor finally came out that I could look at and see the actual values of low to high etc for everything and that really helped. With the AxeIII you actually have to connect the unit apparently just to launch it, so now I can't see the enitre parameter. There a tonof stuff I want to know, not just a couple things. I contacted Cliff about it and I was just told to get it and if you don't like it after 15days you can get a refund, which is great, but I don't have the extra to just put up like that, plus if it all checks out in what I want it to do then as long as the sound quality and feel is there, which it seems like it is than I would just keep it. It's little stuff like teh Eq band range, experimenting with how much you can load at once, how the mixer affects things, etc. Just a ton of stuff which I could never do in 15days. So I figure what I'll do eventually is learn as much as I can and get one and try it out during an extended break or something to figure it out. I'm real famiiar with using all kinds of stuff so it's not a learning curve worry, It's a does it do this list of stuff to at the level I want. It appears to but I now better when it comes to any piece of gear that short comings are found down the road in obscure situations. I still use racks and dedicated pieces for everything and have been down the "majic box" rabbit hole more times than I want. By the time I get around to it, the Axe III might even be obsolete. I have a freind with the AXeIIXL+ and like it, but didn't get to spend enough time with it. I later foud out some short commings that were deal breakers on that for me, like loop length and Eq bandwidth etc, which I know are up to par now in the Axe3. Once, if ever, there is an offline editor for AxeIII, I'll check that out, make patches and once the cash is in hand I will get one on trial. One thing that also turn me off is the lack of warranty. I mean, for that kinda chash it should be at least 5 years. $100 Boss pedals come with a 5 year and you step on those. I'm looking for a total rig replacement with the III as I have what I want now in refrigerator rack form. I will put an Axe through it's paces over the course of a year or more and A/B it with my actual rig and see how it does. If It's up to par then Iwould be happy at that time to liquidate and free up some cash.



If I had the time (I might eventually) I'd send you a bunch of screenshots. I have no idea about the looper length though since it's an invisible wall as to how long you can record.


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## c7spheres (Apr 24, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> If I had the time (I might eventually) I'd send you a bunch of screenshots. I have no idea about the looper length though since it's an invisible wall as to how long you can record.


Thanks, No worries though. I'm gonna cross my fingers and hope for an offline editor, and when I get really serious as I get closer to that cash goal, I'm thinking my buddy will have upgraded by then and I can check it out more in depth. I appreciate it though. Thanks.


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## Cheap (Apr 24, 2019)

Really glad I let go of my axe 2 last week so I didn’t have to take the new product announcement price hit!

Also I think this thing is ugly as shit and wouldn’t be stoked to stomp on something that looks like a kids toy for my adult man tones. I know that’s stupid of me tho hahah


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 24, 2019)

Cheap said:


> Really glad I let go of my axe 2 last week so I didn’t have to take the new product announcement price hit!
> 
> Also I think this thing is ugly as shit and wouldn’t be stoked to stomp on something that looks like a kids toy for my adult man tones. I know that’s stupid of me tho hahah



I'm waiting to see how far the AX8 drops!

This looks like a toy?  What in the world looks professional then that isn't basically the same as tech from 10 years ago? This looks pretty high tech imo. Maybe it's the primary colored footswitch colors messing with you? (they are changeable btw)


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## Shoeless_jose (Apr 24, 2019)

Looks like a very cool unit, if I didn't have a Helix I would jump on it for sure, like how it has a fairly decent amount of I/O options and I feel like it will be a bit bigger in person than photos make it look like. Anyways this just makes me realize how much I under use my Helix and makes me want to go dig in and make some new presets and jam.


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## c7spheres (Apr 24, 2019)

Cheap said:


> Really glad I let go of my axe 2 last week so I didn’t have to take the new product announcement price hit!
> 
> Also I think this thing is ugly as shit and wouldn’t be stoked to stomp on something that looks like a kids toy for my adult man tones. I know that’s stupid of me tho hahah


It's just the latest trend. Everything has to have LED's and a color screen. I would like to see options in the menu's to have all this stuff turn off if you want (not sure if it's an option) so it doesn't glare at you from the floor or have to be seen from an audience perspective. YOu can always tell what gear people have because of their glow. ike AxeFx, Eventide, etc. It's neat but sometimes you want it dark.


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## Cheap (Apr 24, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> I'm waiting to see how far the AX8 drops!
> 
> This looks like a toy?  What in the world looks professional then that isn't basically the same as tech from 10 years ago? This looks pretty high tech imo. Maybe it's the primary colored footswitch colors messing with you? (they are changeable btw)





c7spheres said:


> It's just the latest trend. Everything has to have LED's and a color screen. I would like to see options in the menu's to have all this stuff turn off if you want (not sure if it's an option) so it doesn't glare at you from the floor or have to be seen from an audience perspective. YOu can always tell what gear people have because of their glow. ike AxeFx, Eventide, etc. It's neat but sometimes you want it dark.



I’m definitely in the camp that loved their calculator aesthetic. This one looks like something a beetleborg would drive. 

Maybe I’m just getting into too much of a hippie phase and craving the charm of an amp without menus or scribble strips that isn’t smaller than my computer. Just not my vibe 

With all that said I’m too much of a gear whore to not end up trying one out anyway so whatever. Time’s a flat circle and all that


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## Andromalia (Apr 24, 2019)

> I guess I just remember the "battle of the buttons" from the late 90's/early 00's where companies like Boss, Digitech, Zoom, and the like were trying to add as many footswitchs, expression pedals, controllers, lights, etc. to these mammoth effects units and how absolutely useless most of it was



To be fair, the current modelers do give some ideas that weren't exactly feasible at the time. I've even had patches where a control pedal is linked to the gain setting of the amp. Not really a practical use but hey, why not, at least I tried. Current modelers allow you to do much more with your pedals than before so those expression pedals would be welcome. On the other hand, at that budget, separating the good might be a better idea, all-in-one units becoming unusable because one the elements broke is a common thing, too.


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## lewis (Apr 24, 2019)

Cheap said:


> I’m definitely in the camp that loved their calculator aesthetic. This one looks like something a beetleborg would drive.
> 
> Maybe I’m just getting into too much of a hippie phase and craving the charm of an amp without menus or scribble strips that isn’t smaller than my computer. Just not my vibe
> 
> With all that said I’m too much of a gear whore to not end up trying one out anyway so whatever. Time’s a flat circle and all that


I do prefer the Ax8 look to this newer AXEIII style but hey each to their own i guess.
(I love my Ax8)

View attachment 68795


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## c7spheres (Apr 24, 2019)

Cheap said:


> I’m definitely in the camp that loved their calculator aesthetic. This one looks like something a beetleborg would drive.
> 
> Maybe I’m just getting into too much of a hippie phase and craving the charm of an amp without menus or scribble strips that isn’t smaller than my computer. Just not my vibe
> 
> With all that said I’m too much of a gear whore to not end up trying one out anyway so whatever. Time’s a flat circle and all that


I'm in the same mindset there, but if it's got what works, is reliable, durable, and compact, that's the best of all worlds. I'll probably never sell my current rig, but these new tools are so tempting. These modelers are finally getting on par with the real gear they emulate it seems, I'll bet in the next 5yrs there will be all kinds of amazing stuff. 

What I really want to see is the advancement of guitar synthesis. I used to do the Axon midi converter connected to a Kurzweil K2500rs and playing harps and strings etc. was just amazing. Ultimately I got out of it because the tracking for live was just to risky, cause when a note screw up it makes a freakout bleep sound and I just couldn't trust it for performance, but now I see people doing all kinds of stuff, without special pickups and cables, such as the positive grid stuff. It does a real good job and in the future to have something like that in an AxeFx or standalone unit would be awesome. I feel it's coming in the next 5-10 years and it wlll be phenomenal.


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## ManOnTheEdge (Apr 24, 2019)

Looks awesome but at 1000usd street it’ll be £1000 in the UK - will probably end up going with the HX stomp (I have helix native and have no problems with the tones available ) - unless I can find a used Axe 2 for a pittance


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## lewis (Apr 24, 2019)

dont know why my AX8 picture died /\ but here it is again







Its too new for me to consider getting this new Fractal product, but I think my band in general will have one as my other guitarist is interested in a floor soloution to use as a RIG 2 option to his Axe II Rack setup.
(same as what I did but opposite way around)
so at least I will still see and play through one when he gets his. Looking forward to seeing it


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## budda (Apr 24, 2019)

Fyi, you can adjust the screen contrast


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## Shask (Apr 24, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Yeah, I read it. I would like to see the manual or editor to see the actual parameters. This has been an issue I've had in decideing to whether even do a trial on the AxeII and now the AxeIII. I want to see a manual with a list of all the parameters etc, like other processors often have. On the AxeII an editor finally came out that I could look at and see the actual values of low to high etc for everything and that really helped. With the AxeIII you actually have to connect the unit apparently just to launch it, so now I can't see the entire parameter ranges. There's a ton of stuff I want to know, not just a couple things. I contacted Cliff about it and I was just told to get it and if you don't like it after 15 days you can get a refund, which is great, but I don't have the extra to just put up like that, plus if it all checks out in what I want it to do then as long as the sound quality and feel is there, which it seems like it is, than I would just keep it. It's little stuff like the Eq band range, experimenting with how much you can load at once, how the mixer affects things, etc. Just a ton of stuff which I could never do in 15 days. So I figure what I'll do eventually is learn as much as I can and get one and try it out during an extended break or something to figure it out. I'm real familiar with using all kinds of stuff so it's not a learning curve worry, It's a does it do this list of stuff to do at the level I want. It appears to but I know better when it comes to any piece of gear that short comings are found down the road in obscure situations. I still use racks and dedicated pieces for everything and have been down the "magic box" rabbit hole more times than I want. By the time I get around to it, the Axe III might even be obsolete. I have a friend with the AxeIIXL+ and like it, but didn't get to spend enough time with it. I later found out some short comings that were deal breakers on that for me, like loop length and Eq bandwidth etc, which I know are up to par now in the Axe3. Once, if ever, there is an offline editor for AxeIII, I'll check that out, make patches and once the cash is in hand I will get one on trial. One thing that also turns me off is the lack of warranty. I mean, for that kinda cash it should be at least 5 years. $100 Boss pedals come with a 5 year warranty and you step on those. I'm looking for a total rig replacement with the III, as I have what I want now in refrigerator rack form. I will put an Axe through it's paces over the course of a year or more and A/B it with my actual rig and see how it does in every situation. If It's up to par then I would be happy at that time to liquidate some gear and free up some cash, maybe. But This new unit looks great for a stick-it in the rack jack of all trades type unit.



Generally the Wiki pages are the best place for specific info. I dont have a III, but I know the II Wiki lists every parameter, every effect, etc...

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_III


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## Xaios (Apr 24, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> It's just the latest trend. Everything has to have LED's and a color screen. I would like to see options in the menu's to have all this stuff turn off if you want (not sure if it's an option) so it doesn't glare at you from the floor or have to be seen from an audience perspective. YOu can always tell what gear people have because of their glow. ike AxeFx, Eventide, etc. It's neat but sometimes you want it dark.


*Attempts to cultivate dark, brooding and enigmatic guitarist air of mystery.*

"G** d*** motherf***** rainbow LEDs!"


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## Bearitone (Apr 24, 2019)

lewis said:


> dont know why my AX8 picture died /\ but here it is again
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn it looks nice with those barefoot buttons


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 24, 2019)

The dedicated amp eq and gain controls on the ax8 (and those nice green rotary leds) are what really sold me on the ax8 vs the helix.


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## lewstherin006 (Apr 24, 2019)

For those who dont feel like digging around for more info on the FM3, I went through the forum post about it and put all the info into a video.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 24, 2019)

so i guess they already discontinued the AX8. too bad.


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## budda (Apr 24, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> so i guess they already discontinued the AX8. too bad.



Is it off the site?


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## lewis (Apr 24, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> The dedicated amp eq and gain controls on the ax8 (and those nice green rotary leds) are what really sold me on the ax8 vs the helix.



Same! even now that design looks way cooler/nicer than this brand new products design imo.


MASS DEFECT said:


> so i guess they already discontinued the AX8. too bad.





budda said:


> Is it off the site?



yeah they have!!
no more sadly. Im glad I got mine when I did from G66 before this happened as I love it.

Also, anyone who had pre-ordered new stock on AX8s have been moved over automatically to the preorder list of these new products


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 24, 2019)

the moment they said that everyone on the ax8 waitlist will be moved to the fm3 waitlist, i kinda feared that the ax8 would be dead.


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## c7spheres (Apr 24, 2019)

Shask said:


> Generally the Wiki pages are the best place for specific info. I dont have a III, but I know the II Wiki lists every parameter, every effect, etc...
> 
> https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_III


Nice! Thanks, Not sure how I never found this. I'll check them out!


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## Flappydoodle (Apr 24, 2019)

As someone not in the Fractal ecosystem, what's new and better exactly about this?

People are saying "game changer", but it looks like the AX8, but uglier, took away the expression pedal, took away most of the foot-switches.


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## c7spheres (Apr 24, 2019)

lewis said:


> Same! even now that design looks way cooler/nicer than this brand new products design imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um, If I go to their site the AX8 is still available for online purchase it just says out of stock. I can't believe they would discontinue the Ax8 for the FM3.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Um, If I go to their site the AX8 is still available for online purchase it just says out of stock. I can't believe they would discontinue the Ax8 for the FM3.



They said all preorders of the ax8 are transferred to the fm


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 25, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> As someone not in the Fractal ecosystem, what's new and better exactly about this?
> 
> People are saying "game changer", but it looks like the AX8, but uglier, took away the expression pedal, took away most of the foot-switches.



Super simplified answer:

The AX8 is the Axe2 in a floorboard for $1300. The FM3 is the Axe3 in a floorboard for $1000. 

So it's using the more current algorithms in a ~30% cheaper box. 

I don't think I'd ever call it "game changing", but I see the fuss.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

I think since they're doing this then they should just come out with a small box without any foot switches that can fit on your pedal board and let everyone just stick it on there and add exactly the buttons and pedals they want instead of having a 3 switch pedal. Make it as small and robust as possible. Most people using this type of thing, imo, are either sticking this on there desk and only use the foot pedals with their hands most of the time, OR use it in a pedal board setup, and it's not usually as their only pedal on the board, and when your at that level and actually using something on the regular with your feet you appreciate compact customizable things, a lot. Just a little strong simple box and protector over the knobs like a steel plate lid, and I'll add my own robust carling switches etc. I'm always thinking live rig though. Set it and forget it, put it in a bomb proof water tight case and move on.


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## lewis (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Um, If I go to their site the AX8 is still available for online purchase it just says out of stock. I can't believe they would discontinue the Ax8 for the FM3.


Everyone claims it on the fractal forum. And people are saying their Ax8 order got moved across automatically to the FM3 pre order.
Also pretty sure some FAS mods waded in confirming it.
Plus, the Ax8 is a nightmare for them to deal with regards to its programming/coding. The guy who done the lot for them originally no longer works there, so i think they probably want to replace it with a similar product, but that shares the same coding as the AXE III, just so its easier for them now to keep up with their updates/firmware.

The ax8 likely cant get that same final hoorah Axe Fx II Ares update because of this (and if we do, its likely to be some time yet)


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## laxu (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I think since they're doing this then they should just come out with a small box without any foot switches that can fit on your pedal board and let everyone just stick it on there and add exactly the buttons and pedals they want instead of having a 3 switch pedal. Make it as small and robust as possible. Most people using this type of thing, imo, are either sticking this on there desk and only use the foot pedals with their hands most of the time, OR use it in a pedal board setup, and it's not usually as their only pedal on the board, and when your at that level and actually using something on the regular with your feet you appreciate compact customizable things, a lot. Just a little strong simple box and protector over the knobs like a steel plate lid, and I'll add my own robust carling switches etc. I'm always thinking live rig though. Set it and forget it, put it in a bomb proof water tight case and move on.



I agree. The 3 switches seem like a waste, I would rather they had made this a product similar to the old Line6 PODs because nobody makes anything like that anymore. You are still going to want a MIDI floorboard or the hideously expensive FC controller with this.

That navigation section is really disappointing on the FM3. While not as bad as the AX8's Shift button nonsense, it is literally the same thing they've had since the Axe-Fx Standard and it's not great. The button placement is not ideal and the navigation arrows are spread too far apart IMO. I was constantly bumping my hand into that stupid value wheel knob when reaching for the Enter/Exit buttons. It should have been left to the 1980s rack units it came from.

They also threw out a good feature of the AX8, the quick amp controls. Those were a good idea but half-assed execution because they should be configurable to control any parameter you want. Fractal's support for 3rd party knob controllers is still abysmal when you can't map most of the block parameters to anything due to the artificial restrictions.


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## lewis (Apr 25, 2019)

laxu said:


> I agree. The 3 switches seem like a waste, I would rather they had made this a product similar to the old Line6 PODs because nobody makes anything like that anymore. You are still going to want a MIDI floorboard or the hideously expensive FC controller with this.
> 
> That navigation section is really disappointing on the FM3. While not as bad as the AX8's Shift button nonsense, it is literally the same thing they've had since the Axe-Fx Standard and it's not great. The button placement is not ideal and the navigation arrows are spread too far apart IMO. I was constantly bumping my hand into that stupid value wheel knob when reaching for the Enter/Exit buttons. It should have been left to the 1980s rack units it came from.
> 
> They also threw out a good feature of the AX8, *the quick amp controls*. Those were a good idea but half-assed execution because they should be configurable to control any parameter you want. Fractal's support for 3rd party knob controllers is still abysmal when you can't map most of the block parameters to anything due to the artificial restrictions.



I will never understand when companies make products that exclude this feature. It works perfect on my AX8 because the preset can always remain the same, and I can quickly bend down and change the eq for my ears dependant on what the venue/stage might be hindering sonically - but turning it off after the show (AX8) just undoes these changes so the preset stays intact.

how will people get around that issue now with the FM3? dont get me wrong it looks sick asf, but surely its less practical than an AX8 for that reason?


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

lewis said:


> Everyone claims it on the fractal forum. And people are saying their Ax8 order got moved across automatically to the FM3 pre order.
> Also pretty sure some FAS mods waded in confirming it.
> Plus, the Ax8 is a nightmare for them to deal with regards to its programming/coding. The guy who done the lot for them originally no longer works there, so i think they probably want to replace it with a similar product, but that shares the same coding as the AXE III, just so its easier for them now to keep up with their updates/firmware.
> 
> The ax8 likely cant get that same final hoorah Axe Fx II Ares update because of this (and if we do, its likely to be some time yet)


I'm just gonna hang out and see where the future of the AxeFx III evolves. I'm thinking the AxeFxIII is gonna really be useful even as a studio tool, like a processor , just for the Eq's and compressors and stuff. I'd really like to mess around with it on mixing tracks etc. also besides a guitar processor. Kinda like an Eventide is an all around use it in an environment. It seem like it has all kinds of uses. These smaller unit don't interest me in the price range, but AxeFxIII does.


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## mikah912 (Apr 25, 2019)

lewis said:


> I will never understand when companies make products that exclude this feature. It works perfect on my AX8 because the preset can always remain the same, and I can quickly bend down and change the eq for my ears dependant on what the venue/stage might be hindering sonically - but turning it off after the show (AX8) just undoes these changes so the preset stays intact.
> 
> how will people get around that issue now with the FM3? dont get me wrong it looks sick asf, but surely its less practical than an AX8 for that reason?



Not in the least. If you're going direct with one of these at a gig, the EQ and levels should be set with FOH with just them making adjustments. Now, if you find yourself needing more stage volume for your monitors, this has two separate level/volume controls for each of the outputs...so you can quickly reach down and grab that knob if need be. 

But aside from that....on-unit EQ changes midshow strike me as wildly unprofessional. From the touring metal bands I see to the local cover bands I occasionally play in to the silent stage P&W church groups I encounter weekly.....it's just not done. You should be stomping presets and effects on/off and maybe using a volume pedal. That's it. 

Anyway, no one product is for everyone. Axe-FX III is too unwieldy and expensive for some, plus it has a rack format which doesn't work for everyone. The AX8 lacks USB interface and headphone functionality, plus it has a relatively low-information density screen. It's also EOL'd. I'm pretty excited for the FM3 and jumped on the list fairly quickly. But it's ok if it's not your cup of tea.


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## Jeff (Apr 25, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I guess I just remember the "battle of the buttons" from the late 90's/early 00's where companies like Boss, Digitech, Zoom, and the like were trying to add as many footswitchs, expression pedals, controllers, lights, etc. to these mammoth effects units and how absolutely useless most of it was. That's why you don't see that much variation on control surfaces these days.
> 
> Then again, I've down sized my foot controllers twice, so I'm probably biased.
> 
> To the Apple analogy, I suppose this is equivalent to someone going with an iPhone XR vs. a Samsung Galaxy S10. Some just want access to the particular ecosystem, where others want major specs. Of course, both will work for 99% of people, but it depends on what the user values more.



The iPhone has better tone.


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## lewis (Apr 25, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> Not in the least. If you're going direct with one of these at a gig, the EQ and levels should be set with FOH with just them making adjustments. Now, if you find yourself needing more stage volume for your monitors, this has two separate level/volume controls for each of the outputs...so you can quickly reach down and grab that knob if need be.
> 
> But aside from that....on-unit EQ changes midshow strike me as wildly unprofessional. From the touring metal bands I see to the local cover bands I occasionally play in to the silent stage P&W church groups I encounter weekly.....it's just not done. You should be stomping presets and effects on/off and maybe using a volume pedal. That's it.
> 
> Anyway, no one product is for everyone. Axe-FX III is too unwieldy and expensive for some, plus it has a rack format which doesn't work for everyone. The AX8 lacks USB interface and headphone functionality, plus it has a relatively low-information density screen. It's also EOL'd. I'm pretty excited for the FM3 and jumped on the list fairly quickly. But it's ok if it's not your cup of tea.


I meant during line check/soundcheck.

But you know what, come to my city and play some shows and see the sound guys before you start accusing the musicians of being the unprofessional ones


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## Backsnack (Apr 25, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Well, that's a let down if it is almost the same as the AX8's processing power. No dual amps. Limid high resolution effects and cabs.


Have you tried loading third-party impulse responses rather than stacking amp models?


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 25, 2019)

From reading the thread on the Fractal forum:

I think the way to describe the FM3 is that it’ll sound as good as the AFXIII but you can’t put as much shit on the grid. That includes being limited to one amp model at a time and less instances of certain effects. It will also not be able to use some of the more esoteric effects like the vocoder and a few others that aren’t especially popular anyway.

Three buttons seems like very few but they’re not simple toggles and you can accomplish far more than many people might expect with just those three.

The screen is the same size as that on The AFXIII. 

Seems like a cool unit. I’m now in the waitlist for that and the “ridiculously expensive” FC6.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 25, 2019)

Backsnack said:


> Have you tried loading third-party impulse responses rather than stacking amp models?



Yes. I have. But I primarily play through a stereo power amp. It's nice to have contrasting amps per channel.



Deadpool_25 said:


> Three buttons seems like very few but they’re not simple toggles and you can accomplish far more than many people might expect with just those three.



How do the "channels" work on the Axe III? Is that like scenes but better? 

Maybe live the way I would use the 3 buttons on the FM3 would be toggling between scenes or amp modes x/y hold functions. 

Switch 1= X/Y Lead channel amp- Clean channel amp
Switch 2= Scene 1, hold for scene 2
Switch 3= Scene 3 ,hold for scene 4

There, you have like 6 switches now. Maybe if I learn to choose channels, that would expand it a bit more. I just dont know how will I cycle thru presets between songs.


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## Backsnack (Apr 25, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Yes. I have. But I primarily play through a stereo power amp. It's nice to have contrasting amps per channel.


Good point, but to me, it seems like trying to blend separate gain structures to sound good would be way more difficult than just EQ’ing a single amp.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 25, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Yes. I have. But I primarily play through a stereo power amp. It's nice to have contrasting amps per channel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Channels are variations of a block, scenes are variations of the grid setup.
A channel change can modify all of a block's settings.
A scene can change multiple blocks' channels and bypass states.

I use one of my scenes currently to switch the channel of the amp block to one that has more gain and volume while also simultaneously turning on my delay and reverb.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 25, 2019)

lewis said:


> I will never understand when companies make products that exclude this feature. It works perfect on my AX8 because the preset can always remain the same, and I can quickly bend down and change the eq for my ears dependant on what the venue/stage might be hindering sonically - but turning it off after the show (AX8) just undoes these changes so the preset stays intact.
> 
> how will people get around that issue now with the FM3? dont get me wrong it looks sick asf, but surely its less practical than an AX8 for that reason?


You could always make a switch layout that changes bass\mid\treble pretty easy. I did this to homogenize my presets that were created at different times (under different levels of hearing fatigue).


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## Backsnack (Apr 25, 2019)

I really like the sound quality and incredible variety of the amp models in the Fractal line.

Unfortunately, I need all the I/O of the Helix floor to work for me as an all-in-one solution.

I’m idly wondering if the next iteration of the Helix line might step up the quality of the amp modeling to get closer to the Fractal.

Oh and Fractal needs way more variety of bass amp models imho. Helix has them completely beat on that front.


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

considering how slowly Line 6 updates the major parts of their modeling, they'd probably get to present day Fractal Ares level in 2024.

I don't need a bunch of buttons, small size of the unit is very appealing. With MIDI In I might be able to control it from the MPC Live and won't even need the buttons that are there. I like the minimalist idea. You can expand; you can't subtract. This thing is only 11.2" x 9.2" x 3.5". It's about the size of a stack of magazines and probably weighs less. That's awesome.

It'd be really cool if it was like the classic Line 6 bean pod, but I see why they went with the form factor they did. Losing the direct amp controls from the AX8 also sucks but if you aren't Axe Editing all your patches you are doing it wrong


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 25, 2019)

^lol I haven't touched Axe edit for 2 years now. Flipside is, I'm an expert and very quick with front panel programming.


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Yes. I have. But I primarily play through a stereo power amp. It's nice to have contrasting amps per channel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



tap for channels makes more sense, hold for scenes. don't need to directly jump to scenes if you are doing it between songs. then you only need a Scene Up/Scene Down and that frees up a hold function on the third button

switch 1 - tap clean channel, hold scene decrement
switch 2 - tap rhythm channel, hold scene increment
switch 3 - tap lead channel, hold -12 pitch shift djont mode

iirc channel switching is also totally gapless whereas scene switch can potentially have gaps so you want to use channels to change amp sounds during a song


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 25, 2019)

“The firmware is still beta so nothing is set in stone yet. Between now and they day they start shipping things could change but so far we didn't port the Vocoder, Tone Match, RTA and 10-Tap Delay IIRC.

Due to the lesser processing power there are fewer instances of many effects, i.e. two instead of four. Channel counts are the same.”

- Fractal Audio (Cliff)


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

The only things that I'm not into about this unit are the physical build and the price. The more I look at it the cheaper built it looks. I'd be worried about the knobs breaking and that screen failing. By the time it breaks there probably won't be any parts or way to get it fixed. I like gear that is repairable 20 years down the road. If a piece of gear speaks to me (yeh, I'm the gear whisperer : ) Then It will probably be used for a long time to come. We're ultimately talking about consumer electronics here. This is consumer electronics that can probably be used in a professional manner, imo. It's a weak, probably made in China, computer with a few buttons and knobs. I think it is way overpriced. I understand the cost is still paying for all the R&D probably from the start of history for their company, but still. $1000 for a sale price? I'm thinking msrp should be $400-$500. And if your giving it foot switches then give it 4. I use 4 channels: Clean, Dirty, Crunchy, Heavy. It's just not gonna work for me, maybe in my rack when the price comes way down in 10 years. My main concern with this stuff is when it breaks it's almost never repairable because the company has moved on to other things and parts are no longer available etc. I don't see the future proofing at all in the Fractal stuff. They are 5-10 year products it seems. Warranty, non transferable, is only a year on the AxeIII a $2500 product? Speaks to the faith in reliability of their product. I really want the AxeIII but can't justify it until the cost is way down on the used market and reliability has been established. I'm not Fractal bashing, just giving my opinion on why I won't be getting their stuff until later in the future.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> The only things that I'm not into about this unit are the physical build and the price. The more I look at it the cheaper built it looks. I'd be worried about the knobs breaking and that screen failing. By the time it breaks there probably won't be any parts or way to get it fixed. I like gear that is repairable 20 years down the road. If a piece of gear speaks to me (yeh, I'm the gear whisperer : ) Then It will probably be used for a long time to come. We're ultimately talking about consumer electronics here. This is consumer electronics that can probably be used in a professional manner, imo. It's a weak, probably made in China, computer with a few buttons and knobs. I think it is way overpriced. I understand the cost is still paying for all the R&D probably from the start of history for their company, but still. $1000 for a sale price? I'm thinking msrp should be $400-$500. And if your giving it foot switches then give it 4. I use 4 channels: Clean, Dirty, Crunchy, Heavy. It's just not gonna work for me, maybe in my rack when the price comes way down in 10 years.



The physical build quality is not an issue. They're products are very well built. Many parts are sourced from China but these are high quality parts. Same level of quality as what goes into other very high-end equipment. Not cheap by any means.

Fractal is pretty good about servicing their products from what I've seen btw.

You're doing a lot of arbitrary speculating and it's incorrect.

MSRP of $400 - $500 puts it at the price point for controllers of other units. That's grossly undervaluing what this is. There are products which fit in your mentioned price range and they are cheaper in quality like you assume this one to be. This Fractal unit is not that.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> The physical build quality is not an issue. They're products are very well built. Many parts are sourced from China but these are high quality parts. Same level of quality as what goes into other very high-end equipment. Not cheap by any means.
> 
> Fractal is pretty good about servicing their products from what I've seen btw.
> 
> ...


I was editing my post when you were replying. As in that post I said, I'm not Fractal bashing, but I understand I'm ignorant to the Fractal quality and I am speculating. I think because I grew up with all this stuff as it came into existence and went through the hell of all the problems during the ART, Digitech etc. stuff which was built cheap mostly, and when you went to get it fixed there was no way to do it. What I need to do is get my hands on one of these units (the AxeFxIII) and really test it out and put it through it's paces and if I don't like it sell it on the used market at a very minimal loss, which would be justifiable like I was renting it or something. I need to open one up and look at the circuit board quality, buttons, pots, and encoder quality etc. Maybe I'll do that when I have the money.


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## Lemonbaby (Apr 25, 2019)

Would have bought one of their products a long time ago, but they need to loose their nerd-approach to UI design. I'm wondering why they don't realize that a capable DSP-SW-engineer probably isn't the right guy to decide how a device should look and be edited. A little introspection never hurt anyone and if you can't do it yourself, don't be ashamed to ask for help.


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## mikah912 (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> considering how slowly Line 6 updates the major parts of their modeling, they'd probably get to present day Fractal Ares level in 2024.



Line 6 updates major parts of Helix modeling with every full point release. You just gotta listen with your ears instead of with press releases...


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> The only things that I'm not into about this unit are the physical build and the price. The more I look at it the cheaper built it looks. I'd be worried about the knobs breaking and that screen failing. By the time it breaks there probably won't be any parts or way to get it fixed. I like gear that is repairable 20 years down the road. If a piece of gear speaks to me (yeh, I'm the gear whisperer : ) Then It will probably be used for a long time to come. We're ultimately talking about consumer electronics here. This is consumer electronics that can probably be used in a professional manner, imo. It's a weak, probably made in China, computer with a few buttons and knobs. I think it is way overpriced. I understand the cost is still paying for all the R&D probably from the start of history for their company, but still. $1000 for a sale price? I'm thinking msrp should be $400-$500. And if your giving it foot switches then give it 4. I use 4 channels: Clean, Dirty, Crunchy, Heavy. It's just not gonna work for me, maybe in my rack when the price comes way down in 10 years. My main concern with this stuff is when it breaks it's almost never repairable because the company has moved on to other things and parts are no longer available etc. I don't see the future proofing at all in the Fractal stuff. They are 5-10 year products it seems. Warranty, non transferable, is only a year on the AxeIII a $2500 product? Speaks to the faith in reliability of their product. I really want the AxeIII but can't justify it until the cost is way down on the used market and reliability has been established. I'm not Fractal bashing, just giving my opinion on why I won't be getting their stuff until later in the future.



this is the most quintessentially sevenstring.org post I've ever seen. "make it to my exact specs then chop the cost in half" with the bonus kicker of "I can't justify it until the cost is way down on the used market" in 10 years

added bonus of "probably made in China" even though China has been making electronics for so long now they are actually better at it than the US..... and they would use the same components either way. "don't see the future proofing at all" when there's posts in this very thread about how good Fractal post purchase support is... and you are worried about reliability when Axe FXs are the most ubiquitous piece of touring gear out there? good lord



mikah912 said:


> Line 6 updates major parts of Helix modeling with every full point release. You just gotta listen with your ears instead of with press releases...


I do, good at $500. somewhat acceptable at $1,000. legitimately bad for $1,700


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## mikah912 (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> I do, good at $500. somewhat acceptable at $1,000. legitimately bad for $1,700



If you say so. They seem to be doing half decent with their line, saleswise.


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## mikah912 (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I was editing my post when you were replying. As in that post I said, I'm not Fractal bashing, but I understand I'm ignorant to the Fractal quality and I am speculating. I think because I grew up with all this stuff as it came into existence and went through the hell of all the problems during the ART, Digitech etc. stuff which was built cheap mostly, and when you went to get it fixed there was no way to do it. What I need to do is get my hands on one of these units (the AxeFxIII) and really test it out and put it through it's paces and if I don't like it sell it on the used market at a very minimal loss, which would be justifiable like I was renting it or something. I need to open one up and look at the circuit board quality, buttons, pots, and encoder quality etc. Maybe I'll do that when I have the money.



No need to speculate. On the product pages for their stuff, Fractal details the quality of the components (e.g. "Burr-Brown® SoundPlus™ and Analog Devices® op amps, PPS film caps, a high-voltage bipolar power supply for low distortion and maximum headroom, and flagship-quality Cirrus Logic® converters") in their stuff, plus they use the most powerful DSP on the market in their Axe-FX III flagship. 

It ain't built cheap, and the country of origin is par for the course for mass-produced electronics in 2019.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> The only things that I'm not into about this unit are the physical build and the price. The more I look at it the cheaper built it looks. I'd be worried about the knobs breaking and that screen failing. By the time it breaks there probably won't be any parts or way to get it fixed. I like gear that is repairable 20 years down the road. If a piece of gear speaks to me (yeh, I'm the gear whisperer : ) Then It will probably be used for a long time to come. We're ultimately talking about consumer electronics here. This is consumer electronics that can probably be used in a professional manner, imo. It's a weak, probably made in China, computer with a few buttons and knobs. I think it is way overpriced. I understand the cost is still paying for all the R&D probably from the start of history for their company, but still. $1000 for a sale price? I'm thinking msrp should be $400-$500. And if your giving it foot switches then give it 4. I use 4 channels: Clean, Dirty, Crunchy, Heavy. It's just not gonna work for me, maybe in my rack when the price comes way down in 10 years. My main concern with this stuff is when it breaks it's almost never repairable because the company has moved on to other things and parts are no longer available etc. I don't see the future proofing at all in the Fractal stuff. They are 5-10 year products it seems. Warranty, non transferable, is only a year on the AxeIII a $2500 product? Speaks to the faith in reliability of their product. I really want the AxeIII but can't justify it until the cost is way down on the used market and reliability has been established. I'm not Fractal bashing, just giving my opinion on why I won't be getting their stuff until later in the future.



Worries about the long term reliability of a computer product. 

What year is this thread living in.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 25, 2019)

It looks more robust and gig worthy to be honest. It looks like a freakin toshiba military computer you take to Jurassic park. Those side bumpers and buttons are straight up Nokia 6250.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> this is the most quintessentially sevenstring.org post I've ever seen. "make it to my exact specs then chop the cost in half" with the bonus kicker of "I can't justify it until the cost is way down on the used market" in 10 years
> 
> added bonus of "probably made in China" even though China has been making electronics for so long now they are actually better at it than the US..... and they would use the same components either way. "don't see the future proofing at all" when there's posts in this very thread about how good Fractal post purchase support is... and you are worried about reliability when Axe FXs are the most ubiquitous piece of touring gear out there? good lord
> 
> ...


 Well, I did explain why I'm coming off that way. I'm not being a jerk about it and I'm not Fractal bashing. I admitted I was ignorant to Fractal stuff and the quality and never said "make it to my exact specs" like you quoted me as saying. Saying to give it 4 switches cause I use 4 channels was more of a poke at the lack of switches and not really an arrogant demand or anything. They are absolutely an ubiquitous piece of gear, but so was all the other rack units in the 80's and 90's that people don't want and laugh at now. That is likely what will become of the fractal units in 20-30 years like the 80's and 90's units. Many of these same pro's that use the Fractal were using those units back then, and they were the ultimate awesome piece of gear. They played live and recorded with them, and those are great records and shows. It's like history repeating itself, but the sound quality is better. I don't mean to come of that way. I think the meaning can be lost in text/type sometimes.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Well, I did explain why I'm coming off that way. I'm not being a jerk about it and I'm not Fractal bashing. I admitted I was ignorant to Fractal stuff and the quality and never said "make it to my exact specs" like you quoted me as saying. Saying to give it 4 switches cause I use 4 channels was more of a poke at the lack of switches and not really an arrogant demand or anything. They are absolutely an ubiquitous piece of gear, but so was all the other rack units in the 80's and 90's that people don't want and laugh at now. That is likely what will become of the fractal units in 20-30 years like the 80's and 90's units. Many of these same pro's that use the Fractal were using those units back then, and they were the ultimate awesome piece of gear. They played live and recorded with them, and those are great records and shows. It's like history repeating itself, but the sound quality is better. I don't mean to come of that way. I think the meaning can be lost in text/type sometimes.




Bruh it’s a computer. If it lasts 3 years you’re doing super good.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> No need to speculate. On the product pages for their stuff, Fractal details the quality of the components (e.g. "Burr-Brown® SoundPlus™ and Analog Devices® op amps, PPS film caps, a high-voltage bipolar power supply for low distortion and maximum headroom, and flagship-quality Cirrus Logic® converters") in their stuff, plus they use the most powerful DSP on the market in their Axe-FX III flagship.
> 
> It ain't built cheap, and the country of origin is par for the course for mass-produced electronics in 2019.


How do I keep missing this stuff? Maybe my browser isn't displaying it or something cause I am looking for the info. Thanks!


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## mikah912 (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> How do I keep missing this stuff? Maybe my browser isn't displaying it or something cause I am looking for the info. Thanks!



Just look at the product page for the Axe-FX III on Fractal's site. Scroll down.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Bruh it’s a computer. If it lasts 3 years you’re doing super good.


I think I'm just old school man. I'm used to big racks. tube heads, pedals etc. I've grown with the evolution of this stuff and had so many problems throughout this time. I think I'm just very cautious and critical because of it and just don't trust stuff/companies anymore. When I do find gear and companies I like, I praise them for sure. I just gotta get experienced with Fractal and go from there. With all the good stuff being said, they seem really great. I'd still be buying backup units though, cause that's the way it's gotta be. : )


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Well, I did explain why I'm coming off that way. I'm not being a jerk about it and I'm not Fractal bashing. I admitted I was ignorant to Fractal stuff and the quality and never said "make it to my exact specs" like you quoted me as saying. Saying to give it 4 switches cause I use 4 channels was more of a poke at the lack of switches and not really an arrogant demand or anything. They are absolutely an ubiquitous piece of gear, but so was all the other rack units in the 80's and 90's that people don't want and laugh at now. That is likely what will become of the fractal units in 20-30 years like the 80's and 90's units. Many of these same pro's that use the Fractal were using those units back then, and they were the ultimate awesome piece of gear. They played live and recorded with them, and those are great records and shows. It's like history repeating itself, but the sound quality is better. I don't mean to come of that way. I think the meaning can be lost in text/type sometimes.



I apologize if I came across as a jerk, I never figured out how to not be a dick online. according to my GF I'm not much better in person so I'll just blame my parents and a youth entirely wasted in their basement playing video games

no doubt in 10 years something better will come along. at some point you have to decide its good enough to jump in. I've actually gotten into and out of Fractal twice.. or maybe three times? I think I had an Axe FX Standard, definitely had the original Ultra, and had a 2 for a long time. each time I got sick of them and went back to tubes for a while. we'll see if history repeats a third time

the one part you can't knock is the convenience. shows are a lot more fun when you carry your rig and guitar in with one hand, with a beer in the other one. much better than hauling 200 pounds of gear in and out for a crowd that can't notice the difference


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> Just look at the product page for the Axe-FX III on Fractal's site. Scroll down.


I also learned about the fractal wiki pages. those help a lot too. Thanks.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> I apologize if I came across as a jerk, I never figured out how to not be a dick online. according to my GF I'm not much better in person so I'll just blame my parents and a youth entirely wasted in their basement playing video games
> 
> no doubt in 10 years something better will come along. at some point you have to decide its good enough to jump in. I've actually gotten into and out of Fractal twice.. or maybe three times? I think I had an Axe FX Standard, definitely had the original Ultra, and had a 2 for a long time. each time I got sick of them and went back to tubes for a while. we'll see if history repeats a third time
> 
> the one part you can't knock is the convenience. shows are a lot more fun when you carry your rig and guitar in with one hand, with a beer in the other one. much better than hauling 200 pounds of gear in and out for a crowd that can't notice the difference


Not at all man. Everythings good! The convenience is why I'm so interested in these units. I have no issues with upgrading and changing out gear. The issues I have is when they stop making a piece of gear (especially true in the studio environment) and there is no product, not even the "upgrade" that has certain critical features you loved about the one they just stopped making. So if that unit breaks and there is no product to fill that need, you are screwed! The only way to continue using the feature is to get another unit and have backups or get it repaired, which is usually an issue. I'm in a don't trust it mindset cause of all the crap I been through with gear. Tube amps are my thing, and although they are unreliable and unpredictable, you can always get them repaired. Which I fear is getting more difficult to do as the years go by. With this digital gear, as long as it sounds as good or better and retains the features and functionality as the previous gear. I'm all good with it.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I was editing my post when you were replying. As in that post I said, I'm not Fractal bashing, but I understand I'm ignorant to the Fractal quality and I am speculating. I think because I grew up with all this stuff as it came into existence and went through the hell of all the problems during the ART, Digitech etc. stuff which was built cheap mostly, and when you went to get it fixed there was no way to do it. What I need to do is get my hands on one of these units (the AxeFxIII) and really test it out and put it through it's paces and if I don't like it sell it on the used market at a very minimal loss, which would be justifiable like I was renting it or something. I need to open one up and look at the circuit board quality, buttons, pots, and encoder quality etc. Maybe I'll do that when I have the money.



Yeahhhh, I was on the DigiTech train for a long time. This is way better by far. haha



Lemonbaby said:


> Would have bought one of their products a long time ago, but they need to loose their nerd-approach to UI design. I'm wondering why they don't realize that a capable DSP-SW-engineer probably isn't the right guy to decide how a device should look and be edited. A little introspection never hurt anyone and if you can't do it yourself, don't be ashamed to ask for help.



Idk, I think the UI interface to the Ares firmware is pretty nice.
Disclaimer: I'm an engineer.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Yeahhhh, I was on the DigiTech train for a long time. This is way better by far. haha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, I'm a bit jaded by the past. Have you used the Axe as a studio tool? I mean for tracking and mixing etc, not as a guitar processor. I'm curious to know how it performs in this function. (like using it's compressors or Eq on a track or it's reverb on vocals etc) I see the potential in it's functions.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Worries about the long term reliability of a computer product.
> 
> What year is this thread living in.


I think I got stuck in the space time continuum around 1997-2001 when the Multiverses started overlapping. I don't know if I'm me or the other me : )


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Yep, I'm a bit jaded by the past. Have you used the Axe as a studio tool? I mean for tracking and mixing etc, not as a guitar processor. I'm curious to know how it performs in this function. (like using it's compressors or Eq on a track or it's reverb on vocals etc) I see the potential in it's functions.



iirc the Axe 3 is definitely usable as a general use studio tool but if you want to run mics into it you need outboard preamps, then you go into the Axe from there.

I know some people used the 2 in that way, especially for vocals, but I didn't find the conversion all that great. you could do one trip in and that was acceptable but if you had to go in and out with ADDA it wasn't very transparent. so if you wanted to use it as an outboard compressor it wasn't great for that. converters in the 3 are as good or better than most audio interfaces so it should be less of an issue. it also works as an 8x8 audio interface now which is a pretty decent amount of IO but you are sample rate locked to 48khz and I have seen some people having latency issues

only thing then is the Axe doesn't do some studio standards stuff. no 1176 compressor for instance


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## vick1000 (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I was editing my post when you were replying. As in that post I said, I'm not Fractal bashing, but I understand I'm ignorant to the Fractal quality and I am speculating. I think because I grew up with all this stuff as it came into existence and went through the hell of all the problems during the ART, Digitech etc. stuff which was built cheap mostly, and when you went to get it fixed there was no way to do it. What I need to do is get my hands on one of these units (the AxeFxIII) and really test it out and put it through it's paces and if I don't like it sell it on the used market at a very minimal loss, which would be justifiable like I was renting it or something. I need to open one up and look at the circuit board quality, buttons, pots, and encoder quality etc. Maybe I'll do that when I have the money.



Get a used Ultra. You will notice enough of a difference between that and what you have experienced in the past, that you will be sold. Though even my RP360 is way better than the older stuff, and it's basement level modeling compared to an Ultra, let alone the AX8 (all of which I am intimately familiar).


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> iirc the Axe 3 is definitely usable as a general use studio tool but if you want to run mics into it you need outboard preamps, then you go into the Axe from there.
> 
> I know some people used the 2 in that way, especially for vocals, but I didn't find the conversion all that great. you could do one trip in and that was acceptable but if you had to go in and out with ADDA it wasn't very transparent. so if you wanted to use it as an outboard compressor it wasn't great for that. converters in the 3 are as good or better than most audio interfaces so it should be less of an issue. it also works as an 8x8 audio interface now which is a pretty decent amount of IO but you are sample rate locked to 48khz but I have seen some people having latency issues
> 
> only thing then is the Axe doesn't do some studio standards stuff. no 1176 compressor for instance


Oh, that 8x8 audio interface use sounds nice, but it's no Eventide for the verbs then I assume. I think it just may be cool to try that out. Using it as a guitar processor, how does it feel in comparison to a tube amp? Why did you go back and forth a couple times with it? My main rig is using Mesa preamps and a VHT 2-50-2 poweramp with EL34 Winged-C's in class A mode and 4, 2x12 cabs, 2 on each side for Left and right stereo with Electrovoice 12's. I'm familiar with all the preamps and normal amp heads and rack amps etc. and pickup combinations and so forth.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> Get a used Ultra. You will notice enough of a difference between that and what you have experienced in the past, that you will be sold. Though even my RP360 is way better than the older stuff, and it's basement level modeling compared to a Ultra, let alone the AX8 (all of which I am intimately familiar).


Thanks, I've actually tried the Ultra and also my buddys got a IIxl+ but I only got on them for like 5 mins and couldn't get the point of dialing in a tone, and it wasn't my guitar, but immediately I could tell there was potential there, which is why I'm so interested. There's a "sound" that most units have, probably the converters or something, that just sounds bad no matter what you do to it, but this didn't have that. In 5min it already was obivously nicer than a lot of other gear.


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## Lemonbaby (Apr 25, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Idk, I think the UI interface to the Ares firmware is pretty nice.
> Disclaimer: I'm an engineer.


That was easy to tell. Engineers tend to focus only on what they're good at. Nothing wrong with that in general, but a floor modeler is muuuch more than its firmware. A UI isn't just the GUI (what's on the display) and that's exactly why Helix gets so much love.
Disclaimer: I'm an engineer too.


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## vick1000 (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Oh, that 8x8 audio interface use sounds nice, but it's no Eventide for the verbs then I assume. I think it just may be cool to try that out. Using it as a guitar processor, how does it feel in regards to a tube amp? My main rig is using Mesa preamps and a VHT 2-50-2 poweramp with EL34 Winged-C's in class A mode and 4, 2x12 cabs, 2 on each side for Left and right right stereo with Electrovoice 12's. I'm familiar with all the preamps and normal amp heads and rack amps etc. and pickup combinations and so forth.



Be aware, that replicating a rig like that will require some advanced knowledge of the deep editing features of the Fractal gear. But without a doubt, even without tone matching, even a basic Fractal unit can emulate almost any rig, minus FX (amp-cab-mic) with near perfection. And I mean 99.9% if you know what to edit and how to setup you global parameters for your situation. There is a steep learning curve for duplicating a rig (or editing existing ones) on a Fractal unit, it's not like a Kamper at all. 

The main benefit of deep editing though, is you can make "fantasy rigs" that would never exist in reality without the component modeling in the Axe gear. Or you can simply use the Axe units for a portion of your existing rig. I used them for preamps and FX into tube power amps and real cabs ay first, and they are the best preamps in the world IMO (and I have tried a sh*t ton).


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## vick1000 (Apr 25, 2019)

Lemonbaby said:


> That was easy to tell. Engineers tend to focus only on what they're good at. Nothing wrong with that in general, but a floor modeler is muuuch more than its firmware. A UI isn't just the GUI (what's on the display) and that's exactly why Helix gets so much love.
> Disclaimer: I'm an engineer too.


Yes, workflow effects your efficiency AND desire to use a GUI.


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Oh, that 8x8 audio interface use sounds nice, but it's no Eventide for the verbs then I assume. I think it just may be cool to try that out. Using it as a guitar processor, how does it feel in comparison to a tube amp? Why did you go back and forth a couple times with it? My main rig is using Mesa preamps and a VHT 2-50-2 poweramp with EL34 Winged-C's in class A mode and 4, 2x12 cabs, 2 on each side for Left and right stereo with Electrovoice 12's. I'm familiar with all the preamps and normal amp heads and rack amps etc. and pickup combinations and so forth.



I go back cuz ultimately tube amps still feel better. You want the Axe to sound like a tube amp, and you can mess around with the Axe forever, so why not cut out all the screwing around and just go back to what you're trying to sound like and get the tone you want right out of the box? especially after having the Fractals long enough I eventually stop exploring the different models and sounds and I think to myself "I'm only using one or two models, I might as well just buy that amp instead." so that's what I did this time.

hell even tube pedals feel better, after ditching Axe my silent practice/scratch track rig was a Blackstar HT-Dual pedal that has a tube in it running at the proper voltage and whatnot.

then I go back to Fractal when I want to get back to the versatility and convenience, and usually they've moved another generation in the meantime too. I ditched my Axe 2 before the Ares firmware came out but supposedly it was a huge jump forward, Cliff made some kind of programming breakthrough that he'd been chasing for years so tbh the hype is what is a lot of what's getting me back this time. The 3 is more than I need or really want and the price is way too high with the CAD-USD exchange but this FM3 listing at $1k with Axe 3 quality modeling is exactly the product I wanted at the price I wanted, so hey let's do it

odds are good I will use it more in a hybrid fashion this time around too. run my Dual Rec into a Torpedo Captor and then into the Axe for cab modeling, run the Axe in to the 5150 power amp because iirc those are quite clean, stuff like that. even the old school Ultra way back when sounded phenomenal running into tube power amps


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## vick1000 (Apr 25, 2019)

Same here, the form factor+Ares is what's most appealing to me. Same small footprint as my RP360, with Top of Class firmware. I really wanted to like the Firebox, so tiny, but the gate was too slow, there were some clipping/noise issues, and the GUI was a pain on my PC. The FM3 is exactly what I was hoping for.


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## Jeff (Apr 25, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> Line 6 updates major parts of Helix modeling with every full point release. You just gotta listen with your ears instead of with press releases...



Nah, it’s easier just to troll.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> Be aware, that replicating a rig like that will require some advanced knowledge of the deep editing features of the Fractal gear. But without a doubt, even without tone matching, even a basic Fractal unit can emulate almost any rig, minus FX (amp-cab-mic) with near perfection. And I mean 99.9% if you know what to edit and how to setup you global parameters for your situation. There is a steep learning curve for duplicating a rig (or editing existing ones) on a Fractal unit, it's not like a Kamper at all.
> 
> The main benefit of deep editing though, is you can make "fantasy rigs" that would never exist in reality without the component modeling in the Axe gear. Or you can simply use the Axe units for a portion of your existing rig. I used them for preamps and FX into tube power amps and real cabs ay first, and they are the best preamps in the world IMO (and I have tried a sh*t ton).


Nice, "fantasy rigs" sounds like fun to create. Learning curve not an issue anymore. I can use Eventides, Lexicons, Kurzweils, etc. it's just 2nd nature to learn new rigs now, and from what I can tell it's actually pretty intuitive once you get past the basics and a couple other things. Duplicating my rig would be great to try. That's the main goal with it for me. All the other stuff is like a bonus. I know almost everything about my rig right down to how I like it biased, plate voltages etc. I like how deep the Fractal can go. Tone matching seems pretty simple, but I'd need better mics for what I want, I'd probably just take it to a studio and use their mics and rooms for making my own IR's and stuff. It seems the IR rabbit hole is the biggest factor here, but once I learn how the unit responds to making them i'll be able to adjust for what is needed. The main goal is to duplicate my setup and hopefully, I will like the feel of it, cause I know the sound is there based on what I've seen onYoutube, but to take it to the next level with effects and stuff, like those "fantasy rigs" you're talking about making, would be great. Just all the little one off stuff you only use on a like 1 song, and the portability etc. it's impossible to say no to at least try it and give it an honest,time tested a/b comparison with my actual rig, over the course of like a year. Thanks for the info.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> I go back cuz ultimately tube amps still feel better. You want the Axe to sound like a tube amp, and you can mess around with the Axe forever, so why not cut out all the screwing around and just go back to what you're trying to sound like and get the tone you want right out of the box? especially after having the Fractals long enough I eventually stop exploring the different models and sounds and I think to myself "I'm only using one or two models, I might as well just buy that amp instead." so that's what I did this time.
> 
> hell even tube pedals feel better, after ditching Axe my silent practice/scratch track rig was a Blackstar HT-Dual pedal that has a tube in it running at the proper voltage and whatnot.
> 
> ...





sakeido said:


> I go back cuz ultimately tube amps still feel better. You want the Axe to sound like a tube amp, and you can mess around with the Axe forever, so why not cut out all the screwing around and just go back to what you're trying to sound like and get the tone you want right out of the box? especially after having the Fractals long enough I eventually stop exploring the different models and sounds and I think to myself "I'm only using one or two models, I might as well just buy that amp instead." so that's what I did this time.
> 
> hell even tube pedals feel better, after ditching Axe my silent practice/scratch track rig was a Blackstar HT-Dual pedal that has a tube in it running at the proper voltage and whatnot.
> 
> ...


Good idea on the "Torpedo Captor and then into the Axe for cab modeling" I may try something like that. I use The Sequis Motherload Pro Rack version, 2 for stereo, and they sound phenomenal and respond nice. It has it's own onboard "analog" cab modeling type stuff and they sound great, but I actually like it with the bass turned down and the treble up a little and the cab modeling off. It then sounds exactly like my rig in headphones etc. I was actually looking into trying what your talking about into an AMT Pangaea CP-100 just to make dialing in my sound into the mix easier, by just loading up a bunch of IR's and then when the mix is going just scroll through until something pops out at me and catches my attention.


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## Bearitone (Apr 25, 2019)

This is the first product I’ve seen that makes me actually want to switch to modeling.

How hard would it be to match a rig with an amp not included in the AXEIII? Like say i wanted the sound of a Dual Dark 100 (which i really, REALLY want but can’t afford)?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 25, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> This is the first product I’ve seen that makes me actually want to switch to modeling.
> 
> How hard would it be to match a rig with an amp not included in the AXEIII? Like say i wanted the sound of a Dual Dark 100 (which i really, REALLY want but can’t afford)?



Have you considered a Kemper?

For the price of an Axe3, if all you want is the DD100, just grab that. 

Though you can probably get damn close with Tone Match on the Axe3.


----------



## Albake21 (Apr 25, 2019)

Actually quick question. Do we know if they FM3 will have tone matching like the AXE FXIII?


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## sakeido (Apr 25, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Actually quick question. Do we know if they FM3 will have tone matching like the AXE FXIII?



they specifically said it currently does not have Tone Match but that might change before release. A lot of people were asking about it on the Fractal Forum


----------



## Albake21 (Apr 25, 2019)

sakeido said:


> they specifically said it currently does not have Tone Match but that might change before release. A lot of people were asking about it on the Fractal Forum


Damn... if they add tone matching, I'll happily buy it over my current AX8.


----------



## Bearitone (Apr 25, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Have you considered a Kemper?
> 
> For the price of an Axe3, if all you want is the DD100, just grab that.
> 
> Though you can probably get damn close with Tone Match on the Axe3.


I have but, even used the Kemper is more expensive than this new FM3 and I’m betting the reverbs are better than the kemper’s too.

All that matters to me is that i have a great high gain tone, a great clean tone, and quality stereo reverb and chorus.

I’ve heard of tone match on these before but, i don’t know how it actually works. Time to educate myself lol.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 25, 2019)

Albake21 said:


> Damn... if they add tone matching, I'll happily buy it over my current AX8.


Even if they don't have it added by the time I get called, I'm still going to get it and hope they eventually add it. It's a really cool feature to have in some cases.


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## c7spheres (Apr 25, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Even if they don't have it added by the time I get called, I'm still going to get it and hope they eventually add it. It's a really cool feature to have in some cases.


I'm thinking for the price, wait a while for a deal on the AxeFx2XL+ Lmnopxyz . Right now one's on Ebay for $1600. In a year these will probably be lower, especially pre Xmas time, then install the Ares firmware into it.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 25, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> I have but, even used the Kemper is more expensive than this new FM3 and I’m betting the reverbs are better than the kemper’s too.
> 
> All that matters to me is that i have a great high gain tone, a great clean tone, and quality stereo reverb and chorus.
> 
> I’ve heard of tone match on these before but, i don’t know how it actually works. Time to educate myself lol.



The reverbs...actually all of the effects imo...are better on the Fractal units than the Kemper.


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## MatthewK (Apr 25, 2019)

I've been really happy with Helix, especially the Stomp which is just insanely cool for how small and light it is (I love that my entire rig can fit in a guitar case), but this is super tempting to dip my toes in the Fractal world.


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## Backsnack (Apr 26, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I think since they're doing this then they should just come out with a small box without any foot switches that can fit on your pedal board and let everyone just stick it on there and add exactly the buttons and pedals they want instead of having a 3 switch pedal. Make it as small and robust as possible. Most people using this type of thing, imo, are either sticking this on there desk and only use the foot pedals with their hands most of the time, OR use it in a pedal board setup, and it's not usually as their only pedal on the board, and when your at that level and actually using something on the regular with your feet you appreciate compact customizable things, a lot. Just a little strong simple box and protector over the knobs like a steel plate lid, and I'll add my own robust carling switches etc. I'm always thinking live rig though. Set it and forget it, put it in a bomb proof water tight case and move on.


Agreed.

Three buttons on a unit with this level of functionality seems half-assed. If the idea was to have limited enough control that people would be enticed to buy the expensive foot controllers to go with it, then just remove the switches entirely and make people rely on using the jog wheel/cursor and soft buttons at the top instead. It would give some more room to slap it on a pedalboard with an expression pedal and whatever other effects you might want to pair up with it.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 26, 2019)

Backsnack said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Three buttons on a unit with this level of functionality seems half-assed. If the idea was to have limited enough control that people would be enticed to buy the expensive foot controllers to go with it, then just remove the switches entirely and make people rely on using the jog wheel/cursor and soft buttons at the top instead. It would give some more room to slap it on a pedalboard with an expression pedal and whatever other effects you might want to pair up with it.



I actually do kinda wish they had offered it without any footswitches tbh


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## Bearitone (Apr 26, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> The reverbs...actually all of the effects imo...are better on the Fractal units than the Kemper.


That's what I was saying wasn't I?


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## c7spheres (Apr 26, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> I actually do kinda wish they had offered it without any footswitches tbh


Some people may remember a really awesome midi foot controller. The Gordius Little Giant out of Belgium. I was helping with beta ideas when they were just finishing up the controllers. They were awesome and gave every option; a big, a little, and a module, and thats what they were called!. Genius! The module was awesome. The website is still there but they are all discontinued. I'm not sure what happened to them but it sucks to such an innovative product no longer available. I think it still may be the most advanced and robust midi controller out there. Badass! That module thing is what Fractal should've done and still should do with both their foot controllers and floor boards. The Gordius module looks like it pops on and off, but they don't, but that's probably how they manufacture them. Fractal should make one that pops on and off. I'd love to see just a powerful midi box again like that little giant man. It was cool.


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## Bearitone (Apr 26, 2019)

Wait... no switches? That’s a bit of an odd idea. If you have no foot switches you might as well toss it in a rack unit. No point in making it a floor unit. And you’d still have to buy a footswitch so... not seeing the point. 

I would way rather have an all-in-one. Shit, they should team up with Matrix and release a powered floor unit.

Also i don’t see why 3 switches isn’t enough for some people. What are you doing to where you need more for any given song?


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## c7spheres (Apr 26, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Wait... no switches? That’s a bit of an odd idea. If you have no foot switches you might as well toss it in a rack unit. No point in making it a floor unit. And you’d still have to buy a footswitch so... not seeing the point.
> 
> I would way rather have an all-in-one. Shit, they should team up with Matrix and release a powered floor unit.
> 
> Also i don’t see why 3 switches isn’t enough for some people. What are you doing to where you need more for any given song?


That matrix idea is a good one for sure. The no switches would be either rack or floorboard unit. It gives option if you want switches, can have as many as you want and use the type and style of switches you want. For example I like to have my channels at the ready, like clean, grit, chunky and heavy. Also a switch for delay on'off. a tap tempo, any other effects o and off, like wah , and have a couple expression pedals for wah/whammy and volume etc. It would just be more customizable basically. It's just personal preference. I also have stuff where I might kick on a rotary speaker or octaver, overdrive, chorus etc. Some song have a lot goiing on. but especially when your improvising and jamming you can just kick on effects as you feel it spontaneously. Everyone has their preferences. I like the less is more approach but sometimes you need options. Great Matrix Idea though. The amps are small enough nowadays.


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## budda (Apr 26, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Also i don’t see why 3 switches isn’t enough for some people. What are you doing to where you need more for any given song?



Because they want to stack reverbs or delays or generally run more than 3 effects .

The fact that the FX8 doesn't have the CPU to run 2x reverb and 2x delay + a pitch block is my main gripe about the unit.


----------



## broangiel (Apr 26, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Wait... no switches? That’s a bit of an odd idea. If you have no foot switches you might as well toss it in a rack unit. No point in making it a floor unit. And you’d still have to buy a footswitch so... not seeing the point.
> 
> I would way rather have an all-in-one. Shit, they should team up with Matrix and release a powered floor unit.
> 
> Also i don’t see why 3 switches isn’t enough for some people. What are you doing to where you need more for any given song?


By the time you design the thing to account for the processor and power amp heat dissipation (let alone everything under the hood), the complaint would be “that’s too large.”


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 26, 2019)

budda said:


> The fact that the FX8 doesn't have the CPU to run 2x reverb and 2x delay + a pitch block is my main gripe about the unit.



I think part of the reason that Fractal is making cheaper and cheaper units, capability be damned, is to entice folks into the ecosystem.

That's why the focus has been on having the floorboards use the flagship processing, yet not being able to run as much.

They want to prove how great the modeling is to get folks to buy the higher price rack units and controllers.

Even if the immediate conversion is relatively small, I'm sure over time it'll bring more and more into Fractal flagship rack unit camp.

That's sort of how I got into the Axe. I bought a used Standard, and when the Axe2 came out it was no question that I was going to grab it.


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## mpexus (Apr 26, 2019)

This guy made a video showing how you can most certain use only the 3 buttons (its not made on the FM3)

Skip to min 5 +/-


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## laxu (Apr 26, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Wait... no switches? That’s a bit of an odd idea. If you have no foot switches you might as well toss it in a rack unit. No point in making it a floor unit. And you’d still have to buy a footswitch so... not seeing the point.
> 
> I would way rather have an all-in-one. Shit, they should team up with Matrix and release a powered floor unit.
> 
> Also i don’t see why 3 switches isn’t enough for some people. What are you doing to where you need more for any given song?



To me having a floorboard unit with the bare minimum of switching capability is kind of a worst of both worlds situation. I'd rather have no switches (and a more compact unit or with more knobs on it) and put it somewhere higher like on top of a cab so I don't have to bend down to adjust settings. Then I can just run a single cable to a MIDI switcher. I think the feature set of the FM3 is great and isn't so overkill as the Axe-Fx 3 but I would prefer to use it as a desktop rather than a floor unit.

I use pretty much every single one of the switches on my Helix Floor but mostly because I treat it as more of a pedalboard where each switch toggles fx. If I were to use it with snapshots (similar to scenes on Fractal) then I would still want at least half the amount of switches so I can quickly change both scenes and presets without having to do a big tap dance of holding switches or use one to change states etc.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 26, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> That's what I was saying wasn't I?


You said you bet they were and I was just confirming it to be true since I have both.




Bearitone said:


> Wait... no switches? That’s a bit of an odd idea. If you have no foot switches you might as well toss it in a rack unit. No point in making it a floor unit. And you’d still have to buy a footswitch so... not seeing the point.



Basically a Line 6 Pocket POD (the bean) but much better


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 26, 2019)

Hey, I'm just the old man walking into the room on this convo. But can you guys confirm....Fractal is direct sales only? No channel?


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## broangiel (Apr 26, 2019)

The906 said:


> Hey, I'm just the old man walking into the room on this convo. But can you guys confirm....Fractal is direct sales only? No channel?


Correct, in the States at least.


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 26, 2019)

broangiel said:


> Correct, in the States at least.



Thanks, interesting!


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## vick1000 (Apr 26, 2019)

If it does the amp/cab right, that's what matters. Everything else is gravy. Running into the DSP cap? Put a drive pedal out front instead of the drive block, or reverb box in the loop. The bottom line is you get 256+ class leading amp models, and 2K+ factory IRs, and you get them done right for $1K in a tiny box.


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## mikah912 (Apr 26, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> If it does the amp/cab right, that's what matters. Everything else is gravy. Running into the DSP cap? Put a drive pedal out front instead of the drive block, or reverb box in the loop. The bottom line is you get 256+ class leading amp models, and 2K+ factory IRs, and you get them done right for $1K in a tiny box.



You don't even need to use a drive block. Fractal has both an Input Drive (with a bunch of "boost" options) AND a Saturation switch built into the amp block. The Reverb can be run at normal quality.

How many of the IRs you can use at once is a bit of a question mark. The III lets you blend up to four on demand. Nothing's been said about the FM3. We should know more by Sunday, tho. The big Fractal show is this weekend in Boston, and they will have FM3 units for the attendees to interact with. As many of these cats are professional YouTubers (Marco Fanton, Leon Todd), these hands-ons will go public quickly.


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## Bearitone (Apr 26, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> The bottom line is you get 256+ class leading amp models, and 2K+ factory IRs, and you get them done right for $1K in a tiny box.



Now this puts things into perspective.


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## c7spheres (Apr 26, 2019)

budda said:


> Because they want to stack reverbs or delays or generally run more than 3 effects .
> 
> The fact that the FX8 doesn't have the CPU to run 2x reverb and 2x delay + a pitch block is my main gripe about the unit.


Damn, It the FX8 really can't do that. I would of assumed that would be easy for it and you'd still have room to spare. That's crazy.


----------



## c7spheres (Apr 26, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> If it does the amp/cab right, that's what matters. Everything else is gravy. Running into the DSP cap? Put a drive pedal out front instead of the drive block, or reverb box in the loop. The bottom line is you get 256+ class leading amp models, and 2K+ factory IRs, and you get them done right for $1K in a tiny box.


That's awesome. I'm ignorant to most of the IR stuff, and it's great to have all those options. Don't most people end up using just a few of their favorites and using those? It seems a good idea would be to limit the Amps and IR severely and still make them available for download, then maybe free up the actual storage room in the unit itself for other stuff like other effects. That way you could still have say 100 onboard AMPs and IR's but more other stuff too, and still have access to all of them as well. It's would be like the Sizzler buffet of floor units : )


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 26, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> That's awesome. I'm ignorant to most of the IR stuff, and it's great to have all those options. Don't most people end up using just a few of their favorites and using those? It seems a good idea would be to limit the Amps and IR severely and still make them available for download, then maybe free up the actual storage room in the unit itself for other stuff like other effects. That way you could still have say 100 onboard AMPs and IR's but more other stuff too, and still have access to all of them as well. It's would be like the Sizzler buffet of floor units : )



Storage space is different than CPU caps. 

The amount of amps/IRs has no bearing on the amount of active effects you can have.


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## c7spheres (Apr 26, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Storage space is different than CPU caps.
> 
> The amount of amps/IRs has no bearing on the amount of active effects you can have.


Oh, I see. It just seems like a lot of stuff that won't be used once you find what you want. I was just thinking if you could utilize that unused stuff to make more use of the space would be more efficient.


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## budda (Apr 26, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Damn, It the FX8 really can't do that. I would of assumed that would be easy for it and you'd still have room to spare. That's crazy.



Delay and reverb are very cpu intensive. Trying to stack them even moreso. Also there's a set limit of each block, examlple I cant just have 4 delays and nothing else.


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## c7spheres (Apr 26, 2019)

budda said:


> Delay and reverb are very cpu intensive. Trying to stack them even moreso. Also there's a set limit of each block, examlple I cant just have 4 delays and nothing else.


Wow. Just surprised. Even a lot of older processors can do that, but obivously not as that quality, but still the older processor do sound good when dialed in. Interesting. This is why with the AxeRack units I want to know exactly the parameter ranges and stuff before I buy one. That what happened with the AxeII why I didn't get one cause once the Editor came out and I could see what the ranges were I discovered it couldn't do what I wanted. Just waiting now for the Axe3 offline editor. Right now you apparently gotta have an Axe3 just to launch it.


----------



## Backsnack (Apr 26, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think part of the reason that Fractal is making cheaper and cheaper units, capability be damned, is to entice folks into the ecosystem.
> 
> That's why the focus has been on having the floorboards use the flagship processing, yet not being able to run as much.
> 
> ...


Right now I see an XL II+ on Reverb in good shape, a few scuffs, for $1600.

Wonder if they'll come down any lower after the FM3's start landing?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Apr 26, 2019)

Backsnack said:


> Right now I see an XL II+ on Reverb in good shape, a few scuffs, for $1600.
> 
> Wonder if they'll come down any lower after the FM3's start landing?



It seems every Fractal release pushes the prices down on the used gear. Obviously the older the unit the greater the price will fall, but now unless you need certain things like extensive effects or multiple amps I don't see why someone wouldn't save themselves the $600 (or more) and grab an FM3. 

But this wouldn't be until they're readily available. 

I think the AX8 and FX8 prices will drop harder than the rack units. For all the groaning about the amount of switches in here, most aren't bothered by that, at least enough to discount the ARES modeling of the new gear.


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## hvdh (Apr 27, 2019)

Guys, it is still vapour ware. And lot of info is still not available. Furthermore i see great reasemblence with the AA3. And then 1 year extra and the AA6 will come out with better and stronger chips. In Europa FW3 will cost at least €1400 and will take al least the next 9 months to arrive in EU.

Plus one year for the FW6 and the FW3 will be dumped. 

So I decided to first buy a Hotone Ampero for €340 and use that for the next 1,5 year and then the market will be flooded with FW3. Then, only then I will buy the FW3 if only if by then the chinese have not surpassed Cliffy Boy. Or the new Kemper cause they now how to stand next to their products lifecycle.

Patience, patience guys....


----------



## Andromalia (Apr 27, 2019)

budda said:


> Because they want to stack reverbs or delays or generally run more than 3 effects .
> 
> The fact that the FX8 doesn't have the CPU to run 2x reverb and 2x delay + a pitch block is my main gripe about the unit.


I bet it's not about CPU power at all but more about market segmentation. If you want everything, the big, more expensive big brother unit is available for purchase



> And then 1 year extra and the AA6 will come out with better and stronger chips


My axe II had a shelf life of 7 years. Good enough for me. Besides, the XL, + and ++MoarVitamins editions sound strictly the same as the base release mark 1 unit.


----------



## budda (Apr 27, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> I bet it's not about CPU power at all but more about market segmentation. If you want everything, the big, more expensive big brother unit is available for purchase



It has a CPU monitor, it's the CPU


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 27, 2019)

budda said:


> It has a CPU monitor, it's the CPU



It very well could be a combination of the two. 

Obviously a lot of decisions about the unit were market driven, and it wouldn't be surprising if they left a little bit of CPU wiggle room for a future update. 

That said, the Fractal user community would probably figure it out pretty quickly if there was some bit of code stopping one of the cheaper units from doing everything the flagship ones can. I mean it took what, six months, before someone made an itemized list of the Axe Standard/Ultra guts in grueling detail?


----------



## budda (Apr 27, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It very well could be a combination of the two.
> 
> Obviously a lot of decisions about the unit were market driven, and it wouldn't be surprising if they left a little bit of CPU wiggle room for a future update.
> 
> That said, the Fractal user community would probably figure it out pretty quickly if there was some bit of code stopping one of the cheaper units from doing everything the flagship ones can. I mean it took what, six months, before someone made an itemized list of the Axe Standard/Ultra guts in grueling detail?



I can tell you that the FX8 hasn't been updated in over a year, and that some owners are pretty unhappy with that. People are wondering if the bugs from the last update will get fixed, and if it will see another update or has been silently left behind. There's a few leaning towards the latter, of course.

Even with the FX8, I don't know if I would jump into a II/III or just stick with conventional rigs + pedalboards going forward. Time will tell!


----------



## Andromalia (Apr 27, 2019)

> I mean it took what, six months, before someone made an itemized list of the Axe Standard/Ultra guts in grueling detail?


As with all computers, knowing what's its made of is of little help if you can't get your hands on the program itself. The Fractal Audio stuff relies on software written by Cliff Chase who's been very adamant to never release any kind of PC software on grounds on not getting his programs into enemy hands.


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## Backsnack (Apr 27, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It seems every Fractal release pushes the prices down on the used gear. Obviously the older the unit the greater the price will fall, but now unless you need certain things like extensive effects or multiple amps I don't see why someone wouldn't save themselves the $600 (or more) and grab an FM3.
> 
> But this wouldn't be until they're readily available.
> 
> I think the AX8 and FX8 prices will drop harder than the rack units. For all the groaning about the amount of switches in here, most aren't bothered by that, at least enough to discount the ARES modeling of the new gear.


I'm one of those unusual folks who's also playing a Chapman Stick. So if I'm dropping $1k+ on a modeling solution, I want to be able to use it with my Stick and guitar. That means I need a minimum of stereo i/o, with the ability to have discrete bass/guitar signal paths with individual effects for each.

This is why I'm still in the Helix camp, for now. I realize my use case is probably in the small minority, especially on a guitar forum. I imagine there are at least a few folks who have a guitar with bridge piezo pickups (Petrucci Music Man) who would at least be interested in having the option for a separate signal chain for something like that for doing a blend with magnetic pickups. Ultimately though, that would probably be a luxury and not a requirement.


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## vick1000 (Apr 27, 2019)

hvdh said:


> Guys, it is still vapour ware. ... Then, only then I will buy the FW3 if only if by then the chinese have not surpassed Cliffy Boy. Or the new Kemper cause they now how to stand next to their products lifecycle.
> 
> Patience, patience guys....


FM3, what's a FW3?

Vaporware that is on display today in Boston Mass.?



The "chinese" would only imitate, not innovate, as they typically do with tech. They could at best steal the software and put it in an inferior box with a silly name on it. Kemper stands by alright, since they have had only one product for how long now? It seems all they can do is stand by.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 27, 2019)

Backsnack said:


> Right now I see an XL II+ on Reverb in good shape, a few scuffs, for $1600.
> 
> Wonder if they'll come down any lower after the FM3's start landing?



people still think their ax8's are worth 1200 used right now. people are crazy


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## mpexus (Apr 27, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> The "chinese" would only imitate, not innovate, as they typically do with tech. They could at best steal the software and put it in an inferior box with a silly name on it.



That might have been true until sometime ago, but dont keep underestimating the chinese... they are already leaders in some things and they will be leaders of almost all High tech in a not distant future.


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/22/tech/china-tech-innovation-shenzhen/index.html 



They have right now the most advanced facial recognition that exists, and the chinese citizens are already "paying" that "inovation".


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## hvdh (Apr 27, 2019)

Indeed do not underestamate. When for example the former AX8 FAS employee Is now working for a company with chinese affiliation you might be surprised. I mean even the F35 or the new lasertech for battlefields are copied (and sometimes shared). And the FW3 is way more simpler then a F35.

BTW i have no intentions hurting any sensitive FAS souls.


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## Backsnack (Apr 27, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> people still think their ax8's are worth 1200 used right now. people are crazy


That's just people trying to cash out real quick before their pre-orders arrive. They just hope people haven't been paying attention to, well .. every single guitar blog on the internet for the last few days.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 27, 2019)

hvdh said:


> Indeed do not underestamate. When for example the former AX8 FAS employee Is now working for a company with chinese affiliation you might be surprised. I mean even the F35 or the new lasertech for battlefields are copied (and sometimes shared). And the FW3 is way more simpler then a F35.
> 
> BTW i have no intentions hurting any sensitive FAS souls.


While the Chinese might avoid copyright issues, that employee wouldn't be able to get out of any NDAs they may have signed.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Apr 27, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> While the Chinese might avoid copyright issues, that employee wouldn't be able to get out of any NDAs they may have signed.



that only prevents you from talking about and directly copying things you've worked on. 

that doesn't prevent you know using the shit you know to make other stuff.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 28, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> that only prevents you from talking about and directly copying things you've worked on.
> 
> that doesn't prevent you know using the shit you know to make other stuff.



I'm speaking about proprietary stuff. People can use knowledge gained during a job at another place just fine. That happens all of the time.


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## mnemonic (Apr 28, 2019)

I’ve been thinking about this and I’ve decided that I really like the idea. I know a lot of people are complaining about the lack of 100 footswitches but for me, and probably a lot of others also who don’t use a ton of tones at once, three is enough. And if you want to expand, you can get the fc6 or fc12. Boom, shitload of siwches. And the fm3 with fc6 is $200 more than the AX8, but all current gen with the axe iii algorithms, screen, etc. Don’t want those expensive controllers? Can use almost any other midi controller. Hell, a latching footswitch into the ‘pedal’ input also works to control stuff (I do this with my axe ii). Pick up a used fcb1010 and you’ve got a ton of control and you’re only in it for like $1,100 or so. 

I really like the idea of modularity. However I would have preferred if there was an optional bracket or something to fix the FM3 and the footswitch together, as a single unit.

What worries me though, is the processing power and the ax8’s history of lagged firmware updates, including not getting the axe ii’s latest update with no word on if it ever will. As it’s not the flagship unit I wonder if it’s development will also take a back seat. Cliff did mention it’s specifically designed so that updates will be much easier for him than it is for the AX8 so maybe that issue is solved.

Processing power though, it’s apparently only a bit more than the AX8 and I wonder how long that will be enough. The Axe II is vastly more powerful yet only received a partial Ares port. However that could have been a business decision about an EOL unit which I totally understand.

For people wishing it was an axe iii on the floor, you’re dreaming if you think you’d get that at this price. An axe iii floor would undercut both the axe iii rack and footcontroller sales. I would expect an axe iii floor, if it ever came to fruition, would cost more than the axe iii rack unit.

I’m quite happy with my Axe II for the time being but I can see picking up an FM3 in a couple years, if the gap between the II and III widens significantly and the FM3 doesn’t get backburnered. For what I do, I’m sure it has enough power. I rarely hit 50% cpu utilisation in the axe FX as typically I just have boost, eq, amp, delay, reverb, and that’s it.


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## BananaDemocracy (Apr 28, 2019)

This is incredible, truly incredible

For two reasons:
1) This is all coming out at the same time as my big majesty aquisition, which is completely in line with my gear/guitar rehaul
2)this is going to be a problem for my credit....

BTW what FRFR/amplification would you pair with this? Atomic CLR?


----------



## mpexus (Apr 28, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> I'm speaking about proprietary stuff. People can use knowledge gained during a job at another place just fine. That happens all of the time.



Yes and No. On some very High Tech or Important jobs if you leave a company you cannot do the same work for a certain period of time. Sometimes it can be 2-3 years.


----------



## budda (Apr 28, 2019)

BananaDemocracy said:


> This is incredible, truly incredible
> 
> For two reasons:
> 1) This is all coming out at the same time as my big majesty aquisition, which is completely in line with my gear/guitar rehaul
> ...



Whatever your budget and needs require. From skimming threads, most current options are decent to great. It will mostly come down to how well you dial things in.


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## Andromalia (Apr 28, 2019)

mpexus said:


> Yes and No. On some very High Tech or Important jobs if you leave a company you cannot do the same work for a certain period of time. Sometimes it can be 2-3 years.


Yeah, but in this case it's compensated. A company you don't work for can't forbid you to go to the competition without paying anything.


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## budda (Apr 28, 2019)

After reading the threads on the FAS forum and here, I'm now trying to figure out if the FM3 + an MC6 will do what my FX8 currently does, but lighter. The use of channels makes me think it's totally doable, but the question becomes how do I run it, and does it make sense to try and switch. The pro would be weight reduction and having the amp modelling for demoing ideas. GB isn't terrible, but I'm not great at dialling in their sims.


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## Bearitone (Apr 28, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> people still think their ax8's are worth 1200 used right now. people are crazy



They’ll figure it out. Not everyone keeps up with what’s new on the market especially not compared to us forum guys.


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## vick1000 (Apr 28, 2019)




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## LeftOurEyes (Apr 28, 2019)

This announcement just reaffirms me wanting a Kemper eventually over anything Fractal. The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.


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## c7spheres (Apr 28, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> This announcement just reaffirms me wanting a Kemper eventually over anything Fractal. The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.


Exactly. If I get Fractal stuff it will be on a used item, Same with Kemper. Same with almost everything.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 28, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> This announcement just reaffirms me wanting a Kemper eventually over anything Fractal. The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.


You know the old units don't stop functioning once a new model gets released right? 

You're not the first person to say something like that but I really don't understand that line of reasoning. 

And meanwhile, we still don't have an official Kemper editor. I don't see a lack of innovation and improvement as a selling point for a brand.


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## budda (Apr 28, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> This announcement just reaffirms me wanting a Kemper eventually over anything Fractal. The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.



How old is your computer?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> This announcement just reaffirms me wanting a Kemper eventually over anything Fractal. The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.



I mean you don't _have to_ keep up with the Jones' with these things.

The "older" units still sound great. 

I actually have both, an Axe2 and a Kemper, and besides both being "guitar computers" they couldn't be more different. It actually took me weeks to warm up to the Kemper. It's just so alien how the profiles function. 

If you don't use effects too much and you're willing to sift through tons of garbage profiles to find good ones (which are usually paid), then the Kemper is a great unit. 

If you want the best of traditional modeling, the Axe is the way to go.


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## LeftOurEyes (Apr 28, 2019)

lol people get pretty defensive on here when you talk about certain companies. I didn't want to derail the thread a lot from the units talk, I was simply stating an opinion on their business model vs the kemper.



budda said:


> How old is your computer?



Well my computer is 8 years old going on 9 and still works great. Second seeing as it only cost $600 new vs the over $2000 for an Axe Fx that is just a little different. Also since it is a desktop, it is easy to replace any parts that may go out in it or upgrade them so it should last me another 5 to 10 years easily. Not exactly the same thing, no one will be upgrading parts in the Axe II like they do in a PC.



LeviathanKiller said:


> You know the old units don't stop functioning once a new model gets released right?
> 
> You're not the first person to say something like that



You're not the first to say something like that either, and yes I know old models still work and sound well. Who knew right? To me since the Kemper focuses on mainly amp sounds, and more can be added simply by profiling, it has a longevity to it if it is being used as a guitar amp. The fractal tries to do so much, and it seems people buy it for this reason, that eventually as new models come out they want to upgrade because they feel they are missing the features more than the sound.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 28, 2019)

vick1000 said:


>




It looks robust and not as small as I expected. I like it!


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## budda (Apr 28, 2019)

So you agree your point is moot, since if an older unit works for your needs you can just buy that one?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> lol people get pretty defensive on here when you talk about certain companies. I didn't want to derail the thread a lot from the units talk, I was simply stating an opinion on their business model vs the kemper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not getting defensive, it just seems like such a weird thing to not like about a given piece of gear (that it'll eventually not be the latest), and having both the units I'm saying it's not exactly the 1:1 comparison that some people seem to think it is given that they're both ~$2k guitar processors. 

I use them in very different contexts and I'd even go as far as saying they're not even direct competitors with each other. 

Again, maybe dive into some of the quirks of the Kemper. I really like mine (for the time being), but that's after the learning curve of what a profile, and not a model, actually means. 

The best way I can parse this is:

If you like the idea of building rigs, selecting amps, effects, etc. like what building a traditional guitar rig is like, the Axe is king. 

If you want a snapshot of an already assembled and tweaked rig, loading up a profile is the way to go. With the catch being you can only do so much with that snapshot. Worth noting, I've probably spent a couple hundred bucks on profile packs, so if you don't mind dumping a little bit extra cash here and there it's solid.


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## LeftOurEyes (Apr 28, 2019)

budda said:


> So you agree your point is moot, since if an older unit works for your needs you can just buy that one?



No I don't agree its moot because I never said that older models don't work. My point was simply an opinion that I much prefer the Kemper business model to the Fractal one. Simple as that.

I like the fact that if I bought a Kemper I either like it or I don't, there is no GAS after that with the unit itself. With fractal the old ones still sound good, but many people wonder if the new one sounds better and inevitably upgrade. Yes I know you don't HAVE to, but many do because of GAS. This is just my opinion, you don't have to agree.



MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not getting defensive, it just seems like such a weird thing to not like about a given piece of gear



I didn't really mean you when I said that part. I know a bit about both processors, but your posts was the more "helpful" of them.

I think the thing I wouldn't like with the Kemper the most is going through all the profiles of the same amps though.


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## c7spheres (Apr 28, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> It looks robust and not as small as I expected. I like it!


 I got the opposite vibe from it. The encoders and data entry buttons seem cheap and those florescent display button name markers always fade out after awhile or the back lights go out. The plastic sides will eventually break because they are screwed in, whereas with other pedals, though plastic, usually have it just pop on with tabs and after awhile they start popping off, which can be easily fixed when they start doing that, these not so easy once they crack, as glues and epoxy never seems to hold. 

I don't see it as robust to be stepping on, imo. It's eye candy stuff to drive up the cost with unnecessary features and to build in obsolescence while it being a feature at the same time. It's my experience with such products. It's just not for me. Not a long term product, more like a 3-5 year product.

This is why earlier I was saying just make it a box with switch expansion capability. I'd be more interested then, and worry much less about it being robust. I watched that video, and the floor is a desk. I don't think he touched the foot switch once. Obviously he was showing the programming, but them damn switch lights would just drive me crazy like a flashlight in my eyes and leave imprints in my retinas.

I'm really not wanting to come off as negative or anything, I really like this stuff, but I have to call it as I see it from my point of view and I do hope to eventually find a Fractal product I want, at the price I want, Which very likely is an AXeFx3 used in about 5 years. The FM3 is bigger than I expected though, now turn them damn lights off! I will now duck as to not get hit by flying tomatoes and beer bottles.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> I think the thing I wouldn't like with the Kemper the most is going through all the profiles of the same amps though.



That's actually my favorite part about the Kemper. 

I really love modded JCM800s so I have tons of different JCM800 profiles that are unique to themselves. 

But get ready for a bunch of junky profiles. There are hundreds of 5150 profiles out there and maybe a dozen are worth getting.


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## c7spheres (Apr 28, 2019)

I don't want to give anyone any ideas, but wait until "they" start making amps and cabs from the new "plastic wood" stuff they make patio decks and stuff from. They will be made from recycled water bottles and grocery bags, and we will argue about which one has a better tone and resonance. It will be the new Tone Wood debate. Obviously, water bottles sound better than garbage bags because the plastic has a more clear and bell-like tone. We will also argue about how it's so much better quality than that old fashioned wood cabinet stuff. It will cost 10x as much also. Sorry, just my daily dystopian view.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 28, 2019)

There's a ton of misinformation just floating around in here at this point.



LeftOurEyes said:


> Well my computer is 8 years old going on 9 and still works great. Second seeing as it only cost $600 new vs the over $2000 for an Axe Fx that is just a little different. Also since it is a desktop, it is easy to replace any parts that may go out in it or upgrade them so it should last me another 5 to 10 years easily. Not exactly the same thing, no one will be upgrading parts in the Axe II like they do in a PC.



That's actually a good point for Fractal. You don't have to upgrade any parts for it to stay functioning unlike your computer.



LeftOurEyes said:


> No I don't agree its moot because I never said that older models don't work. My point was simply an opinion that I much prefer the Kemper business model to the Fractal one. Simple as that.
> 
> I like the fact that if I bought a Kemper I either like it or I don't, there is no GAS after that with the unit itself. With fractal the old ones still sound good, but many people wonder if the new one sounds better and inevitably upgrade. Yes I know you don't HAVE to, but many do because of GAS. This is just my opinion, you don't have to agree.



Your point was based off the part where you said "The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest." as if buying the newest hardware is necessary, which it isn't. People are going to disagree with that for obvious reasons (simply because it's not true). There's still tons of people using 1st gen Standards and Ultras.

Like I said before, not innovating and improving your product(s) _isn't_ a selling point and it really isn't a wise business model. It's just not doing anything. It's coasting on what you've made and just performing maintenance. The only thing they did was add some reverbs. In the several years the Kemper has been out, I'm pretty sure that's all we've gotten. Meanwhile Fractal added reverbs and _much _more.

Also something I really hate, Kemper banned the guy who was trying to make an unofficial editor. That is VERY anti-innovative. They won't make an editor but they won't let anyone else do it either. Seriously?

Fractal _could _have stopped with their first unit and you wouldn't be saying any of this. Fractal would be probably get overshadowed by some other company eventually as a result though too. They've done things to keep themselves relevant and in business like most other companies. Line6 has done the same thing. They release new products every few years and their goal is that their better than what they released last time.

The GAS doesn't stop with a Kemper just because it's a Kemper either. The rabbit hole of paid profiles is an expensive trip. I've spent a good chunk of money on profiles.



c7spheres said:


> I got the opposite vibe from it. The encoders and data entry buttons seem cheap and those florescent display button name markers always fade out after awhile or the back lights go out. The plastic sides will eventually break because they are screwed in, whereas with other pedals, though plastic, usually have it just pop on with tabs and after awhile they start popping off, which can be easily fixed when they start doing that, these not so easy once they crack, as glues and epoxy never seems to hold.
> 
> I don't see it as robust to be stepping on, imo. It's eye candy stuff to drive up the cost with unnecessary features and to build in obsolescence while it being a feature at the same time. It's my experience with such products. It's just not for me. Not a long term product, more like a 3-5 year product.
> 
> ...



You're inferring that they're cheap from pictures and videos...

The sides aren't even plastic (they're rubber). And the main lights are all dimmable. A lot of the parts they source are high-grade stuff that's use in scientific/medical/military equipment. I've only heard of a handful of cases where someone had a part quit functioning and in those cases Fractal repaired it just fine. They weren't forced to buy the newest product instead of getting a repair (so long as the parts were still available).


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## ekulggats (Apr 28, 2019)

I feel as if the Ax8 was discontinued because fractal realized they were producing a professional level unit for 1300 dollars- something that has basically all the switchability, connectivity etc that a professional touring musician would need, making their own AXE FXIII seem a little useless to all but the most finicky professionals. The FM3 seems much more geared to the semi-serious hobbyist/ intermediate player, sort of where the Helix LT and Amplifire sit, and that they only provided 3 footswitches to make their own Axe FX unit more appealing to a pro

All the same though, I'm incredibly excited for it and will try to get one ASAP


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## c7spheres (Apr 28, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> There's a ton of misinformation just floating around in here at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's good to know what you're saying about the sides being rubber, not plastic, but they sure don't look that way form the pictures or video. How do you know this stuff? The only info I have is a picture, a release paper that says it's made of steel with endcaps, and video. Where is this info? It's good to know what you're saying, but if it's rubber coated plastic it will break depending on how it's attached. Rubber gets real gummy or dried out over time too. Aside from that, this goes back to my point I was making a few pages ago. If I could get my hands on a manual with all the specs and parameters and info about the product i'm interested in, it would make it much easier to make decisions. All I have is speculation and the lack of info doesn't help. If I were selling a product, I'd want everyone to know what the difference is from the competition and all about the product itself. I'm sure I could email them, but based on my last response from Fractal I got about the Axe2 parameters of "buy it and return it if you don't like it" to paraphrase, just didn't settle well. I want to know what I'm buying before I buy it without to much effort. I think that's reasonable. But again, Where do you get this info?


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## LeftOurEyes (Apr 28, 2019)

I don't mean for this to sound rude, but your reading comprehension must be really low or you skipped half of what I wrote because most of what you said is a reply to things I didn't even say.



LeviathanKiller said:


> That's actually a good point for Fractal. You don't have to upgrade any parts for it to stay functioning unlike your computer.



This is just dumb...I didn't say that I HAVE to upgrade my computers parts to keep it running. I was saying that I COULD upgrade parts and make it run BETTER than it was. This is something that Axe FX will not be able to ever do. I only said this since Budda tried to compare replacing this hardware to replacing computers. This is not in anyway a "point" for Fractal.



LeviathanKiller said:


> Your point was based off the part where you said "The buying new hardware every 4 to 5 years model doesn't appeal to me in the slightest." as if buying the newest hardware is necessary, which it isn't.



This is YOUR understanding of what I said, which is not what I was saying. Fractal WANTS you to buy something new every few years, they try and do so. I never once said that you HAVE to buy it every 4 years, as if it was broken after that length of time. That is what you ASSUMED I said. Because of GAS a lot will buy the new model, but no one has to buy anything ever...come on.



LeviathanKiller said:


> Fractal _could _have stopped with their first unit and you wouldn't be saying any of this. Fractal would be probably get overshadowed by some other company eventually as a result though too. They've done things to keep themselves relevant and in business like most other companies. Line6 has done the same thing. They release new products every few years and their goal is that their better than what they released last time.



I didn't say that what Kemper is doing is smarter business sense than what Fractal is doing, I said I like their business model better for me. I appreciate the business lesson but I don't need it since my opinion comes from my perspective as a buyer and not as a perspective of a person who works for these companies or invests in them. A companies profit margin is not on my mind when I buy something, I look at its price point and usefulness. I hope they stay in business but I am not going to stay up at night worrying about it.



LeviathanKiller said:


> The GAS doesn't stop with a Kemper just because it's a Kemper either. The rabbit hole of paid profiles is an expensive trip. I've spent a good chunk of money on profiles.



You are correct on this point, and I even said it at the end of my post that the part I would like the least is going through all the profiles of the same amps. What I was saying is that there would be no GAS with the unit itself. I wouldn't wonder if I got the right model since there is only one model.


----------



## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> It's good to know what you're saying about the sides being rubber, not plastic, but they sure don't look that way form the pictures or video. How do you know this stuff? The only info I have is a picture, a release paper that says it's made of steel with endcaps, and video. Where is this info? It's good to know what you're saying, but if it's rubber coated plastic it will break depending on how it's attached. Rubber gets real gummy or dried out over time too. Aside from that, this goes back to my point I was making a few pages ago. If I could get my hands on a manual with all the specs and parameters and info about the product i'm interested in, it would make it much easier to make decisions. All I have is speculation and the lack of info doesn't help. If I were selling a product, I'd want everyone to know what the difference is from the competition and all about the product itself. I'm sure I could email them, but based on my last response from Fractal I got about the Axe2 parameters of "buy it and return it if you don't like it" to paraphrase, just didn't settle well. I want to know what I'm buying before I buy it without to much effort. I think that's reasonable. But again, Where do you get this info?



Same construction on the FC-12 controller I have. Really it's like a stretchy/bendable plastic or a hard rubber. Hard to tell for sure. It's not something that hair or fuzz catches on but its got some bend to it. It's not going to crack randomly. Better than what they use on the corners of amps if you know what I'm talking about.

Just hang out on the Fractal forums if you want to know more. That's where all of that gets detailed by Cliff and team.



LeftOurEyes said:


> I don't mean for this to sound rude, but your reading comprehension must be really low or you skipped half of what I wrote because most of what you said is a reply to things I didn't even say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I consider functioning for a computer, you would have to upgrade. Especially if it's running a Windows OS. That's where that line of thought came from. There's exceptions so I'll give you that.

That aside, there's no other way to take your original post. It may be your reason, but a company releasing new products is not a good reason to put them off, especially a electronic/tech company. The only justification possibly in it is to not be part of a user group where you'll feel even the slightest bit of "peer pressure". That's on you though. I'm not out buying stuff because everyone else is getting something.

Fractal never contacted me about the FM3. They haven't tried to get me to buy any of their stuff moreso than any other normal gear brand. It's not a cult where everyone starts chanting non-stop when a new product is released. I'm fully capable of doing whatever I want.

I think I'm starting to understanding where you're coming from. Seems like FOMO-type mindset. Owning a product from one brand doesn't make everything else invisible though so I don't understand why you choose to have that influence your purchases. To each their own though.


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## LeftOurEyes (Apr 29, 2019)

Everything I say you somehow twist into something that I don't mean so I don't think you'll ever understand my thinking, nor I yours. That's ok. I'll buy a Kemper eventually and you enjoy your fractal (and Kemper as well for that matter). I should look into Fractal stock though because people buy a lot of their products apparently and that can pay for my Kemper lol.


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## c7spheres (Apr 29, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Same construction on the FC-12 controller I have. Really it's like a stretchy/bendable plastic or a hard rubber. Hard to tell for sure. It's not something that hair or fuzz catches on but its got some bend to it. It's not going to crack randomly. Better than what they use on the corners of amps if you know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Just hang out on the Fractal forums if you want to know more. That's where all of that gets detailed by Cliff and team.
> 
> ...


Oh ok, the forums. I think my browser is jacked up cause Inever seem to find all this stuff. I just tried using Chrome and it came right up. I've seen these forums before, I remember them. I just gotta read up some more then. Thanks. Good to know about the end caps too. I'm probably gonna save for an Axe3 though.


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## mpexus (Apr 29, 2019)

Something must have been stopping Kempre from releasing a new Unit as yet. Most certain Development for a new one time took much longer than they expected.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 29, 2019)

mpexus said:


> Something must have been stopping Kempre from releasing a new Unit as yet. Most certain Development for a new one time took much longer than they expected.



They're really not that old, they came out at the end of 2011, and didn't really start becoming widely available until early 2013. 

I know 6 years is a long time in this industry, but they've made tweaks to the unit and software, in addition to releasing the rack and powered variants, in that time. 

Given the unique way in which they work, I'm not sure what second generation would look like.


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## mpexus (Apr 29, 2019)

There is always room for improvement. I keep reading Kemper people "complaining" that the FX are not as good as they should be. Maybe the _lack_ of processing power can be the Achilles Heel that prevents that (have no clue). Also more processing power means more accurate profiling. Still no Floor model for the Fly in Fly out gigging musician and it seems they still haven't have a simple Editor that can be used on a PC.

When we think things can't be improved we stagnate and then die.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 29, 2019)

mpexus said:


> There is always room for improvement. I keep reading Kemper people "complaining" that the FX are not as good as they should be. Maybe the _lack_ of processing power can be the Achilles Heel that prevents that (have no clue). Also more processing power means more accurate profiling. Still no Floor model for the Fly in Fly out gigging musician and it seems they still haven't have a simple Editor that can be used on a PC.
> 
> When we think things can't be improved we stagnate and then die.



The KPA doesn't bottleneck on CPU/DSP like modeling gear. It's actually a much lighter setup and they gave the current unit enough horsepower that it hasn't been an issue moving on past multiple software updates. 

Kemper himself has said that the profile format is what it is and would need to be built from the ground up/completely redesigned. 

There are definitely areas that Kemper hasn't touched, such as a floor unit, but that doesn't seem to be a priority for them at the moment.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> Everything I say you somehow twist into something that I don't mean so I don't think you'll ever understand my thinking, nor I yours. That's ok. I'll buy a Kemper eventually and you enjoy your fractal (and Kemper as well for that matter). I should look into Fractal stock though because people buy a lot of their products apparently and that can pay for my Kemper lol.


Sorry, if that's the case. I guess I don't understand but if there's anyone else out there misunderstanding like I am I don't want them to think that there's some kind of forced or even necessary upgrade cycle in the Fractal line-up on the customer side when there's not.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I know 6 years is a long time in this industry, but they've made tweaks to the unit and software, in addition to releasing the rack and powered variants, in that time.



6 years is long enough to release an editor considering someone else had a working version (although it was MIDI based communication IIRC). That's what upsets me the most with Kemper. And they've been saying they're going to make one. It's a joke at this point since no one believes it anymore.



MaxOfMetal said:


> Given the unique way in which they work, I'm not sure what second generation would look like.



Hopefully it'll look like something that won't be confused with some kind of eco-friendly kitchen appliance with a retro design. 
The rack version looks a little better but still. It's a very _interesting_ looking piece of equipment. My girlfriend even joked about it.



MaxOfMetal said:


> The KPA doesn't bottleneck on CPU/DSP like modeling gear. It's actually a much lighter setup and they gave the current unit enough horsepower that it hasn't been an issue moving on past multiple software updates.



I think the reason for that is because of using more conservative algorithms (which would coincide with many people thinking they are of lower quality) and also the 8 block limit they enforce, some of which can only be used for certain types of effects.

I think it's easy to overlook the fact that we've been limited all along with the Kemper and so it really shouldn't be a big deal that on the Fractal side we're limited with their smaller floor units. Every preset starts with this huge grid and sometimes the ceiling is hit before filling up said grid. Kemper just enforced really safe boundaries whereas Fractal left it up to the customer to finagle finding the sweet spot (limit) while checking against the usage meter.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The KPA doesn't bottleneck on CPU/DSP like modeling gear. It's actually a much lighter setup and they gave the current unit enough horsepower that it hasn't been an issue moving on past multiple software updates.


Pretty hard to bottleneck the CPU when you artificial limit its capabilities to stay within a certain operating limit. I think as long as people keep paying the retail price they won't do much for hardware upgrades. 
I'd love to see them mix a profile player with a higher-DSP FX engine so you could do a 32-block chain with profiles instead of amp models in a floor unit, but they'd probably charge $3999 for it, so I wouldn't buy it anyways.

I think the "processing and I/O brick" would be a cooler form factor for something like this from Fractal. They could get people into their environment for maybe $750, and then you can add more switches as needed, it would be more pedalboard friendly, too.


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Apr 29, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I got the opposite vibe from it. The encoders and data entry buttons seem cheap and those florescent display button name markers always fade out after awhile or the back lights go out. The plastic sides will eventually break because they are screwed in, whereas with other pedals, though plastic, usually have it just pop on with tabs and after awhile they start popping off, which can be easily fixed when they start doing that, these not so easy once they crack, as glues and epoxy never seems to hold.
> 
> I don't see it as robust to be stepping on, imo. It's eye candy stuff to drive up the cost with unnecessary features and to build in obsolescence while it being a feature at the same time. It's my experience with such products. It's just not for me. Not a long term product, more like a 3-5 year product.
> 
> ...



Not that bad really. I'm with you on those scribble strips. They do go out or blot out or the LED will die. It happens like how it happens in the Helix but the tolerances across the product range is still up to industry standards. And I have seen people gig with them every night and they still last. Reliable? Maybe not so much. Who knows? Been only a few years. But that is what warranties are for. My old RP1000 gave up after 2 years of gigging hard. 

My Fractal AX8 is going strong. Has probably the same buttons and rotary knobs like the FM3. Still functional. Chassis is solid as hell. Footswitches have been somped on with beer soaked or muddy boots. No complaints here. It has been solid and I do session and frequently gig with a cover band. I really do tap dance on these switches. Hahaha

But I get it. Planned Obsolescence is the destiny of all things electronic and digital. These things are designed to last up until the new one comes along. And people will upgrade eventually.


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## vick1000 (Apr 29, 2019)

Buying new stuff is the foundation for the modern gloabal economy.


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## Andromalia (Apr 29, 2019)

> But I get it. Planned Obsolescence is the destiny of all things electronic and digital. These things are designed to last up until the new one comes along. And people will upgrade eventually.


I wouldn't put "technically outdated" on the same step as planned obsolescence, as in, when I sold my previous fractal units, they all worked fine, and I had my axe II for 7 years. (yup, time flies)
A 7 year product cycle in the computer industry is pretty darn long, and I can't say that I feel Fractal audio is using abusive tactics in that regard. Coming up with a better product after seven years shows that they are actually using their money for R&D and not on coke and hookers.


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## c7spheres (Apr 29, 2019)

vick1000 said:


> Buying new stuff is the foundation for the modern gloabal economy.


It's really a shame isn't it.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Pretty hard to bottleneck the CPU when you artificial limit its capabilities to stay within a certain operating limit. I think as long as people keep paying the retail price they won't do much for hardware upgrades.
> I'd love to see them mix a profile player with a higher-DSP FX engine so you could do a 32-block chain with profiles instead of amp models in a floor unit, but they'd probably charge $3999 for it, so I wouldn't buy it anyways.
> 
> I think the "processing and I/O brick" would be a cooler form factor for something like this from Fractal. They could get people into their environment for maybe $750, and then you can add more switches as needed, it would be more pedalboard friendly, too.



Don't forget they locked their looper behind the paywall of the floor controller. Yeah, a looper is much easier to control via said floor controller but that didn't stop Fractal from allowing it to be used. That's something I won't forget when considering how Kemper does business. Their unit HAD that functionality but they purposefully locked it.

Meanwhile Fractal does everything they possibly can to unlock the full potential of the hardware they're using. They even polled the community asking if we wanted more amp blocks but at the cost of quality. Regardless of whatever the results of the poll were, Cliff decided to keep the integrity/quality of the existing amp blocks and not opt for quantity in its place. I know some people were upset with that but I also understand Cliff's side for not wanting to "stoop lower".


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> I wouldn't put "technically outdated" on the same step as planned obsolescence, as in, when I sold my previous fractal units, they all worked fine, and I had my axe II for 7 years. (yup, time flies)
> A 7 year product cycle in the computer industry is pretty darn long, and I can't say that I feel Fractal audio is using abusive tactics in that regard. Coming up with a better product after seven years shows that they are actually using their money for R&D and not on coke and hookers.



And remember that this latest set of products were also influenced by the components of the previous series being discontinued. They probably could have stayed with the Axe-Fx II for a while longer if they wanted to just relax.

Once they switched over to the new architecture is when I think things opened up for them to improve things even further. I remember people saying things were the same at first, then the updates started coming and things started getting different (better by most people's standards). That's about when I bought mine and I agree, the III has improved over the II. I direct compared the same presets on both to check. To me amp models' unique characteristics sound more noticeable on the III. The II (pre-Ares) almost felt like there was a compressor with a high-pass and low-pass filter on when you compare it to an Axe-Fx III preset with the same settings (back when the parameters available were the same that is). The II didn't sound bad though because I loved it when I had it, no complaints. With the III, I went down in the number of patches that I liked (that sounds bad but it's a good thing) because I could hear more individuality between different amp models and decided some were just not my thing. I enjoy staying with just a few presets now because I'm happy 100% of the time with them. Ares got back-ported to the II but I didn't have my II anymore to compare and see if there was still a difference or not.


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## Soya (Apr 29, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Don't forget they locked their looper behind the paywall of the floor controller. Yeah, a looper is much easier to control via said floor controller but that didn't stop Fractal from allowing it to be used. That's something I won't forget when considering how Kemper does business. Their unit HAD that functionality but they purposefully locked it.
> 
> Meanwhile Fractal does everything they possibly can to unlock the full potential of the hardware they're using. They even polled the community asking if we wanted more amp blocks but at the cost of quality. Regardless of whatever the results of the poll were, Cliff decided to keep the integrity/quality of the existing amp blocks and not opt for quantity in its place. I know some people were upset with that but I also understand Cliff's side for not wanting to "stoop lower".



Not to split hairs but you can control the Looper on the Kemper with a cheap 2 button footswitch, you don't technically need the big remote.


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## MASS DEFECT (Apr 29, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> I wouldn't put "technically outdated" on the same step as planned obsolescence, as in, when I sold my previous fractal units, they all worked fine, and I had my axe II for 7 years. (yup, time flies)
> A 7 year product cycle in the computer industry is pretty darn long, and I can't say that I feel Fractal audio is using abusive tactics in that regard. Coming up with a better product after seven years shows that they are actually using their money for R&D and not on coke and hookers.



You are right. i can see that Fractal has the best product cycle against their competitors. I'm not counting Kemper though since there is no replacement or Gen2 to speak off. 

Although, i would like fractal to blow some of that RnD money to some coke and hookers so they can finally think about hiring someone who can do better UI and product design.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

Soya said:


> Not to split hairs but you can control the Looper on the Kemper with a cheap 2 button footswitch, you don't technically need the big remote.



Still seems like a crappy move to do what they did though imo


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## BananaDemocracy (Apr 29, 2019)

If i could get the AXE FXII fm3 or kemper for under 1000 I’d get the kemper
But the fm3 is going to be 1300 i think listed, and then its a wait list of a few month/year
Kemper doesnt go under 1500 for a good used one
Axe fx ii is the only ones ive seen 1000 or so......

Maybe ill get a kemper still......ehhhhh
What do you guys think...in that price comparison point ^
Would you get an AXE fix II for $1000 flat used
Get a kemper for 1500 used
Or wait and get a fm3 at list price???


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

BananaDemocracy said:


> If i could get the AXE FXII fm3 or kemper for under 1000 I’d get the kemper
> But the fm3 is going to be 1300 i think listed, and then its a wait list of a few month/year
> Kemper doesnt go under 1500 for a good used one
> Axe fx ii is the only ones ive seen 1000 or so......
> ...


The FM3 because it's only $999.

The $1300 is MSRP and Fractal won't be the ones charging that price. Scalpers will but not Fractal.


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## c7spheres (Apr 29, 2019)

BananaDemocracy said:


> If i could get the AXE FXII fm3 or kemper for under 1000 I’d get the kemper
> But the fm3 is going to be 1300 i think listed, and then its a wait list of a few month/year
> Kemper doesnt go under 1500 for a good used one
> Axe fx ii is the only ones ive seen 1000 or so......
> ...


AxeFxII and upgrade to the first Ares software. It will no longer be supported, but with new software but it really is enough and more than almost everyone needs or even wants. But honestly it all depends on what you wanna do. If you don't NEED more than a clean, dirty, heavy channel then get real amp head used and some pedals.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 29, 2019)

I really would get the FM3 over the Kemper. If the amp models on the FM3 really are improved with the Ares tech, then I feel like the Kemper and FM3 would be very very close sound wise. 

Also the FM3 effects would smoke the shit out of the Kemper.


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## BananaDemocracy (Apr 29, 2019)

The kemper sound is incredible, better than all the axe fx I and ii

I haven’t heard the fm3/axe fx iii but they look to be on par with kemper if not better st this point 

It’s going to be the fm3 or kemper , but if it’s kemper is going to be a used one and I don’t want another used kemper...I want new 

So I think there’s my answer:FM3 unless a really amazing kemper deal is offered. Like if someone had $1300 shipped I’d take it now but not likely

I looked all over, assuming you on wait listed this week , when are they planning to release/start shipping? And how many units per production series??? Like does fractal fulfill orders Quickly or does it take months ???? 

I need to find a nice FRFR Solution besides an atomic


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## vick1000 (Apr 29, 2019)

FXII prices will not be effected by this release, only AX8.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 29, 2019)

BananaDemocracy said:


> I looked all over, assuming you on wait listed this week , when are they planning to release/start shipping? And how many units per production series??? Like does fractal fulfill orders Quickly or does it take months ????
> 
> I need to find a nice FRFR Solution besides an atomic



I've seen 3-4 months but also 1-2 months. Seems like the general word is that it's going to be soon though (this year some time). Wait lists fill up fast. I was on it within the first hour. I have no clue how big their production batches are though. I do know I'll have my unit from one of the first few batches at least.


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## budda (Apr 29, 2019)

@BananaDemocracy get on the fm3 waitlist. If a wild kemper deal shows up, just pass on your spot.


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## broangiel (Apr 29, 2019)

BananaDemocracy said:


> The kemper sound is incredible, better than all the axe fx I and ii
> 
> I haven’t heard the fm3/axe fx iii but they look to be on par with kemper if not better st this point
> 
> ...



I picked up an RCF ART 710A that I think is great. I use it with my Axe III.


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## BananaDemocracy (Apr 29, 2019)

I signed up on the wait list a few days ago when i saw it posted in the other section before it was closed

Just to be safe.,,i had another spot on the AX8 they said i think I could transfer if it came up before???? So well see, because i was actually about the buy the axe iii but i stopped myself when i saw the fm3 announced 

The RCF ART looks beastly, what did it run you? Did you have any other contenders when considering your options and what made you go with RCF over Atomic? Thx bro


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## broangiel (Apr 29, 2019)

BananaDemocracy said:


> I signed up on the wait list a few days ago when i saw it posted in the other section before it was closed
> 
> Just to be safe.,,i had another spot on the AX8 they said i think I could transfer if it came up before???? So well see, because i was actually about the buy the axe iii but i stopped myself when i saw the fm3 announced
> 
> The RCF ART looks beastly, what did it run you? Did you have any other contenders when considering your options and what made you go with RCF over Atomic? Thx bro



Honestly, I wanted a CLR but I’ve been on the waitlist since early Feb with no indication of getting the nod anytime soon. 

ProAudioStar was selling some B stocks/customer returns, so I paid $470 for mine. It was basically new. They might still have some. 

I went back and forth a lot over the 708 vs the 710, but I decided to go the the 10. I’ve never heard a CLR so I can’t rightfully compare them, but listening to music or playing the Axe through the 710, it all sounds nice and crisp. No FOMO for me, and it was 50% of the cost.


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## mpexus (Apr 30, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> The FM3 because it's only $999.
> 
> The $1300 is MSRP and Fractal won't be the ones charging that price. Scalpers will but not Fractal.




Well in Europe the price if 1300€ is then something like $1.454 (VAT And 3 year warranty) + shipping. So it's almost the price of a new Kemper Unpowered Unit


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## c7spheres (Apr 30, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> And remember that this latest set of products were also influenced by the components of the previous series being discontinued. They probably could have stayed with the Axe-Fx II for a while longer if they wanted to just relax.
> 
> Once they switched over to the new architecture is when I think things opened up for them to improve things even further. I remember people saying things were the same at first, then the updates started coming and things started getting different (better by most people's standards). That's about when I bought mine and I agree, the III has improved over the II. I direct compared the same presets on both to check. To me amp models' unique characteristics sound more noticeable on the III. The II (pre-Ares) almost felt like there was a compressor with a high-pass and low-pass filter on when you compare it to an Axe-Fx III preset with the same settings (back when the parameters available were the same that is). The II didn't sound bad though because I loved it when I had it, no complaints. With the III, I went down in the number of patches that I liked (that sounds bad but it's a good thing) because I could hear more individuality between different amp models and decided some were just not my thing. I enjoy staying with just a few presets now because I'm happy 100% of the time with them. Ares got back-ported to the II but I didn't have my II anymore to compare and see if there was still a difference or not.



I seem to remember on the AxeII people were alway needing to put a drive block in front to make it how they want to sound, when normally with the actual amp you wouldn't need to. I might be wrong, but if that is the case, is that kinda thing still needed on the AxeIII? Am I just totally wrong?


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## ChugThisBoy (Apr 30, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I seem to remember on the AxeII people were alway needing to put a drive block in front to make it how they want to sound, when normally with the actual amp you wouldn't need to. I might be wrong, but if that is the case, is that kinda thing still needed on the AxeIII? Am I just totally wrong?



Depends on your likings and type of amp/sound you're after I guess.


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## LeviathanKiller (Apr 30, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I seem to remember on the AxeII people were alway needing to put a drive block in front to make it how they want to sound, when normally with the actual amp you wouldn't need to. I might be wrong, but if that is the case, is that kinda thing still needed on the AxeIII? Am I just totally wrong?



This...



ChugThisBoy said:


> Depends on your likings and type of amp/sound you're after I guess.



I put a drive block in most of my high-gain presets and and here or there in everything else. It's personal preference and is parallel to what I would do in real life.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 30, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I seem to remember on the AxeII people were alway needing to put a drive block in front to make it how they want to sound, when normally with the actual amp you wouldn't need to. I might be wrong, but if that is the case, is that kinda thing still needed on the AxeIII? Am I just totally wrong?


I don't think this was ever an issue with the modeling not reflecting the actual amp. Modern metal/djent heavy tones and a lot of retro lead tones use that trick to drive the amp a little hard while keeping the gain lower to get saturation while still retaining a little more definition.


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## vick1000 (Apr 30, 2019)

Drives in front of high gain amp settings are generally for compression, level boost, and EQ effects. This is why the best boost I ever heard with a high gain amp, was a dual band parameteric compressor. Having a little clipping can add some complexity as well, and helps those vintage circuits get into modern territory.


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