# I can't "join" riffs together



## leandroab (Jun 23, 2011)

It happens 100% of the time. Usually, random riffs appear randomly throughout the days. I record one then add bass and drums. But then that riff is replayed in a loop for hours and nothing comes out.

Three days later something else appears but kinda doesn't connect to the previous riff. So I end up with two riffs and nothing more. This process repeats until I end up with a bunch of "useless crap" cuz they all sound cool but can't be fitted into a one song. Or I just end up with 500 "new songs" made of one riff... 

What are some tips to "glue" them into a concise thing?


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## synrgy (Jun 23, 2011)

I can't offer any help, but for whatever consolation it's worth, this is the exact issue that my own writing suffers from. I can write riffs all day long, but when it comes to putting riffs together to make actual songs, I'm totally screwed. The last song I actually 'finished' was a dumb-luck jigsaw puzzle of 8 riffs I wrote at different times that just-so-happened to stick together rather nicely when I got the random idea to try playing them together.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 23, 2011)

Me either and I'm the sole songwriter of the band


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## Stealth7 (Jun 24, 2011)

Yeah I've got the same problem!  I've got heaps of GPro tab files that are basically one or two ideas per file.


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## toiletstand (Jun 24, 2011)

start off with different variations of that same riff. different octaves. emphasize different notes.

sometimes what helps is thinking about it like telling a story. "what does this riff allude to later in the song?"


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 24, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Me either and I'm the sole songwriter of the band



Same! The best is when the others refuse to help you arrange at least 

If I do end up writing something I like its ALL in like one 4 hour session, then the next day I don't know what direction to take it and throw it out. I think thats why I hate trying to write the proggy-er stuff I'm into. I can write the riffs but I get flustered when trying to arrange.


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## Edika (Jun 24, 2011)

tltstand said:


> start off with different variations of that same riff. different octaves. emphasize different notes.
> 
> sometimes what helps is thinking about it like telling a story. "what does this riff allude to later in the song?"



This is a good advice. Also if you have two riffs that seem to belong together but don't actually fit, you can add a different ending to the first riff along with a drum break to transcend to the second riff. Another solution is to use a filler riff a bit less complex or that would be a mix of the two riffs aesthetically of what you are trying to glue.

Finally ask someone you trust musically to listen to the transgression of one riff to another because sometimes we are our worst judges.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 24, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Same! The best is when the others refuse to help you arrange at least
> 
> If I do end up writing something I like its ALL in like one 4 hour session, then the next day I don't know what direction to take it and throw it out. I think thats why I hate trying to write the proggy-er stuff I'm into. I can write the riffs but I get flustered when trying to arrange.



Writing riffs is usually very easy but arranging is tough. Those with good theory knowledge suffer much less from this, but even though I know a fair amount of theory I still struggle.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 24, 2011)

Write simple transition riffs... The problem I have a lot of the time is I come up with a riff that I think... "Man I probably wouldn't wanna hear this more than one time through but it's fuckin SWEET..." This is a transition riff. 

Recording helps you to come up with these kinds of riffs.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 24, 2011)

I actually often end up leaving in what I think are crap riffs because they nicely join two riffs that wouldn't otherwise fit


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 24, 2011)

See?

And every riff doesn't have to be mind blowing either. I listen to a lot of songs that I think are great and some of the riffs are literally just 2 power chords strummed in a way that just helps move the song from point A to point B. It's like makin' love... You don't climax the ENTIRE time... Build to it, son!


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## TimothyLeary (Jun 24, 2011)

it happens to me too, but I think it's because I know very little about theory and chord progressions or songwriting. 

People who know how to move inside of a key, or even move through different keys or modes, will not suffer from this, or at least not as much as people who don't know theory.

But of course there are people who write only by ear.. for example, the band Isis, i think they don't give a them about theory, but they make great songs.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 24, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> It's like makin' love... You don't climax the ENTIRE time... Build to it, son!





Rep


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## Varcolac (Jun 24, 2011)

To join riffs together, I heartily abuse drum fills and augmented chords. Having a variant of one riff end on an augmented chord one semitone below the first note of the next riff has the effect of "pulling" the listener into the next one. Quite a useful trick, but I try not to overuse it. A bit of dissonance (aug, dim, b5, b9, chromatic progressions) going towards the next riff helps to glue it together and anticipate the next riff.

If it's a tempo issue, a couple of bars of a ringing chord while the drums speed up or slow down works wonders.

Never underestimate the power of a snap change though. An instant change from one riff to another can have an impressive dynamic and dramatic effect.

Another option is to come up with variants on the original riffs: if it's originally in 6/8, try it in 4/4. If its drumbeat is break-neck blasting, try a funkier backbeat for a couple repetitions. I've done this in one of my band Prometheus's songs (which should finally be available for download etc. once the vocals are done). The main chorus riff is in 6/8, but a bar of 2/4 leads into a post-chorus in 4/4 using the same notes, but rather than arranged as six eighth-notes in one bar, arranged as two bars using two quarters and a half each. That leads into a different verse riff in 4/4, much more easily than the transition from 6/8 chorus to 4/4 verse. When it's time for the chorus again, the abrupt change back to 6/8 hits you in the face like a rude awakening. Probably easier to explain with notation, but I'm posting from a phone. It's actually a technique of time-changing that I learned in a folk music workshop. Apparently it happens all the time in Morris dancing. Those proggy, bell-kneed bastards.


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## kung_fu (Jun 24, 2011)

For the most part, neither can i . Well I can, but it just takes a while. For my main musical project, i've got 2 guitarpro files that are basically hundred of bars long with a bunch of unrelated ideas. If i know of an idea or two that i'd like to have in the same composition, i'll make an additional file called "bandmane_Untitled#.gp4" and start banging away.

As a guitarist, most of my riffs/ideas originate on guitar, and i toss them into one of the two big files i mentioned. The next step is coming up with the acompanying bass/drums/horn/whatever parts to complete the musical idea. Now the tricky part; getting from riff a to riff b. Usually, the parts that go to other instruments are pretty different from eachother harmonically (apart from being in the same key.....maybe ) and rhythmically, not necessarily a poly-rhythm but just a lot of individual parts with lots of different things going on rythmically or with syncopation. Next, i basically listen to the different parts of "riff a" and try a few variations of it (change the drum beat, accent different notes, etc.). If the drums are doing something interesting, i might have the other instruments follow along with a similar rhythmic idea, same goes for the bass. This method is very much like jamming with yourself (but like in your head), and can be pretty effective if you are the main songwriter (plus it would allow your band to focus on pure performance during rehearsals). With a little luck, you'll soon start to get closer to the goal of making two riffs compatible with one another, though by this time the two original ideas may be several bars/seconds or even minutes appart. As others have said, it is often fine to have two very different riffs in quick succession as it can be done to great effect.


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## kung_fu (Jun 24, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> It's like makin' love... You don't climax the ENTIRE time... Build to it, son!



Bad advice. If most guitarists played like they were making love, all songs would start off fast and loud, last only a few seconds, then either end in awkward silence or several minutes of soft crying.


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## Solodini (Jun 24, 2011)

In keeping with the drum-fill transition idea, the drummer from Funeral for a Friend (love them or hate them) often plays a fill which is the rhythm of the incoming riff. Because it's not played with a true pitch, it works well to layer with the existing riff. 

I'll be able to think of more for you when I'm less tired but try ending riff A with whatever note is a 5th above or a minor 2nd below the first note of riff B. That or end with the notes either side of riff B's opener e.g. if riff B starts with a C, make the lead in to it B D or D B. This will enforce the motion toward it. It's what I call an enclosure, be that the proper name or not.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 24, 2011)

kung_fu said:


> Bad advice. If most guitarists played like they were making love, all songs would start off fast and loud, last only a few seconds, then either end in awkward silence or several minutes of soft crying.


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## SirMyghin (Jun 24, 2011)

Solodini said:


> In keeping with the drum-fill transition idea, the drummer from Funeral for a Friend (love them or hate them) often plays a fill which is the rhythm of the incoming riff. Because it's not played with a true pitch, it works well to layer with the existing riff.



I do this a lot, from a not drum perspective though, I change some or many of the instruments rhythms to match the incoming riffs and lead into it a lot. So everything sort of gets brought in to it by the time the transition is over.


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## danieluber1337 (Jun 24, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Writing riffs is usually very easy but arranging is tough. *Those with good theory knowledge suffer much less from this*, but even though I know a fair amount of theory I still struggle.



Tell that to Misha... xD

But yeah. I have this same problem sometimes! I want to learn more music theory to help me with it.


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## Solodini (Jun 26, 2011)

danieluber1337 said:


> Tell that to Misha... xD
> 
> But yeah. I have this same problem sometimes! I want to learn more music theory to help me with it.



He's pretty decent at arranging but he'd still likely find it easier if he had a working knowledge of theory. It's not that you can't arrange well without theory; it's just easier with.


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## KingAenarion (Jun 27, 2011)

I have a very good knowledge of theory...

Other than chord progression matching (or purposeful mismatching)... It doesn't help THAT much.

However a good way to find out if your riffs will match tonally is to find the tonic. If the tonic's don't match, change the key of one of the riffs, or find a way to change into a new key. Otherwise, they will likely sound odd next to each other.


But the truth is variation. Smells like Teen Spirit is just 1 riff and a slight fill riff in the chorus. 

Some ways to vary a riff (particularly if you have 2 guitars and a bass).

1) Keep the bass going while the guitars do something completely different over the top. (Or nothing at all)

2) Play a simplified version of the riff.

3) Play a more complicated version of the riff

4) Play the riff with harmonies or a different harmony

5) Change the fills

6) Add more fills

7) Keep the riff the same but change the underlying/overlying chords.

8) Keep the rhythm the same but change the notes/chords/tonality.

9) Keep the notes/chords/tonality the same but change the rhythms.

10) Play it with clean/distortion

11) Use the chords, write something different over the chords, remove the chords.



Saturated Mark III Piano Mix by JamesDevlin on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

This is one of my bands songs. It's just a first draft of this song. However it only uses 7 riffs. See if you can identify them


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## Solodini (Jun 27, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> I have a very good knowledge of theory...
> 
> Other than chord progression matching (or purposeful mismatching)... It doesn't help THAT much.



It doesn't really help with pairing riffs together but it helps with arranging things and knowing where how to strengthen weak parts of harmony just by seeing what the harmony is.


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## KingAenarion (Jun 27, 2011)

Solodini said:


> It doesn't really help with pairing riffs together but it helps with arranging things and knowing where how to strengthen weak parts of harmony just by seeing what the harmony is.



You just took what I said... and made it more complicated...


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## Tomo009 (Jun 27, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> Saturated Mark III Piano Mix by JamesDevlin on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
> 
> This is one of my bands songs. It's just a first draft of this song. However it only uses 7 riffs. See if you can identify them




Completely off from your advice, but I LOVE your music haha. Doesn't quite sound like anything I've ever heard before. I heard a few parts that reminded me OF Serj Tankian and even of Tool, but very interesting. I like it .


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## Solodini (Jun 27, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> You just took what I said... and made it more complicated...



Not intentionally. Maybe I just misinterpreted what you were meaning. I though you were just talking in terms of horizontal movement from chord to chord rather than the building of the chord itself. I was meaning to dispute that it only helped to determine what chords to move to within a sequence. Apologies.


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## metalman_ltd (Jun 27, 2011)

I actually just kinda started to get good at putting stuff together. What helped me was playing acoustic get rid of all the amp noise and learn chords. Once I got general knowledge of what notes actually sounded like I took that knowledge to my metal. Now I'm whipping out some pretty decent stuff compared to where I was last year.


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## Antoni0 (Jun 28, 2011)

Im often having similar problems, but Ive been able to fix that problem be learning loads of other songs by different bands, giving good ideas. And also trying to stick in only a fews scales.


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## penguin_316 (Jun 28, 2011)

If u have a riff or 2 stuck in your head you want to record/"learn it on guitar"/program drums. 

Start by making sure you set you DAW at the right tempo. Use a program to "tap" the tempo out. Otherwise you will find it really difficult to program the drums via S2.0 or something similar when you are clicking in the dots via the piano roll.

Second, connect the riffs in you head by humming them out...if you can't do that your going to find it impossible to do using S2.0 or something similar.

Third, if you are changing meters a lot aka....one beat of 4/4...then on of 7/8... etc etc. Make sure the changes are at least repeated a few times so the listener can follow the song. You know, if your music is a language try to make coherent sentences.

Please ignore my non-coherent sentences lol.


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## Black_Sheep (Jun 29, 2011)

I pretty much have the same problem. 

But what has helped me in some (and only some) songs/riffs is that i made the riffs very easy first, formed a complete song with quite basic structure. Then, i transformed the riffs into something i wanted them to be, and that worked quite well actually.


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## leandroab (Jul 2, 2011)

TimothyLeary said:


> it happens to me too, but I think it's because I know very little about theory and chord progressions or songwriting.



I think this is my main problem...


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 2, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> I have a very good knowledge of theory...
> 
> Other than chord progression matching (or purposeful mismatching)... It doesn't help THAT much.
> 
> However a good way to find out if your riffs will match tonally is to find the tonic. If the tonic's don't match, change the key of one of the riffs, or find a way to change into a new key. Otherwise, they will likely sound odd next to each other.





penguin_316 said:


> Third, if you are changing meters a lot aka....one beat of 4/4...then on of 7/8... etc etc. Make sure the changes are at least repeated a few times so the listener can follow the song.



This is how you play it safe, but even that isn't a real recipe for this sort of thing. It's very easy to change meter and key within the middle of a section without anybody noticing or caring. My own process doesn't involve matching things or joining riffs - I just build everything off of the same idea. If I kept riffs around with any context, I'd never write any real music. Perhaps the most solid advice I can give is to think of sections in terms of their character. You want different sections to have a different feel in order to provide signposts for the listener. In one song I wrote, the verse is sort of amorphous and calm, without a lot of motion or harmonic activity. The chorus is more insistent and active and has faster chord changes. Then, the development goes fuck all with harmony and has more a more abrasive texture. Having an idea of how the music feels gives me a lot more to work with when I'm writing.


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## TheBotquax (Jul 2, 2011)

The most important aspect of songwriting for me is to throw out the idea of making a song riff by riff. Instead, I usually come up with a very basic idea, such as a simple melody or chord progression, and build on top of it until I have a nice passage that flows, but isn't obviously chopped up into riffs. I'm still very new to this process but my songwriting has improved ten times since I've stopped writing songs riff by riff


EDIT: oops I didn't read schectershores post, it pretty much says the exact same thing Im trying to explain lol


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## LetsMosey (Jul 3, 2011)

Antoni0 said:


> Im often having similar problems, but Ive been able to fix that problem be learning loads of other songs by different bands, giving good ideas. And also trying to stick in only a fews scales.



This. 

Learning a lot of songs from other bands in the same style you're writing music in can help be a muse or inspire creativity. Learning songs can help give you ideas on how they "join" riffs together. It can give you good transitional chord ideas, lick ideas, etc. 

Also, as guitarists, we often feel pressure or fall into a trap of feeling like we are the most important instrument in the band, but it's not. Simple power chords sound boring on their own, but add in a sick bass growling bass, and some cool drums, maybe some synths/keys, and some vox on top, and it sounds amazing. It's all about the song as a whole and all of the elements fitting together. Don't focus too much on writing riffs... just play (especially with others) and improvise. Sometimes some amazing ideas and songs come out of just jamming out of a basic blues scale.

Good luck!


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## Solodini (Jul 3, 2011)

LetsMosey said:


> This.
> 
> Learning a lot of songs from other bands in the same style you're writing music in can help be a muse or inspire creativity. Learning songs can help give you ideas on how they "join" riffs together. It can give you good transitional chord ideas, lick ideas, etc.



I think in doing this, you definitely need a bit of analysis of what the band are doing i.e. where each phrase starts and stops, which phrases lead into which. Otherwise you'll not know which is a transition line and which is part of the riff.


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## LetsMosey (Jul 3, 2011)

Solodini said:


> I think in doing this, you definitely need a bit of analysis of what the band are doing i.e. where each phrase starts and stops, which phrases lead into which. Otherwise you'll not know which is a transition line and which is part of the riff.



I agree to some extent, but this is how a lot of young musicians start out. Usually it's just kids/teenagers that pick up a guitar and want to just learn songs by artists they like. By doing so, they sort of develop on a subconscious level an ability (or awareness maybe) of how to construct songs. I know for me it helped, and at that time, I didn't know anything about theory. I think sometimes theory actually hinders and gets in the way of songwriting, because then we try and just make things more complex then they have to be. I'm not saying that he should dismiss learning theory, but just gave another idea on how to inspire and help the songwriting processes.


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## Solodini (Jul 3, 2011)

You can analyse the phrases without knowng theory, though. Singing it will help as breathing spaces will imply the breaks in phrases.


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## LetsMosey (Jul 3, 2011)

Solodini said:


> You can analyse the phrases without knowng theory, though. Singing it will help as breathing spaces will imply the breaks in phrases.



I agree.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 3, 2011)

LetsMosey said:


> I think sometimes theory actually hinders and gets in the way of songwriting, because then we try and just make things more complex then they have to be.



That's not theory's fault, that's being cocky.


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## LetsMosey (Jul 3, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> That's not theory's fault, that's being cocky.


 
Agreed.


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## Semi-pro (Jul 4, 2011)

kung_fu said:


> Bad advice. If most guitarists played like they were making love, all songs would start off fast and loud, last only a few seconds, then either end in awkward silence or several minutes of soft crying.



Korn's next move: nu-grind!  



Tom Hess wrote sth like this in a column somewhere: If you have a melody, try wiriting chords under it. Try to come up with a couple of alternatives. Then, try writing new melodies on the chord progressions you've written. After that, write new chords again under the _new_ melodies, etc...

That way you can milk a simple idea quite far, and even if you only have 2 riffs to begin with, you might end up with a song, and the best thing is: the method should guarantee that, at least in some level, the parts in it should sound like they all _belong_ to the same song. For example - with all respect to one of the most fun genres ever - i think if you exchange a riff or two between 2 cromatic death metal songs, they probably end up sounding more or less the same anyway...


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## anne (Jul 7, 2011)

Putting some consistent-sounding or cross-phrased leads on top of a riff change can hold it together too. Forward-moving phrasing always helps hold things together.


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## InHiding (Jul 12, 2011)

Long time ago when I heard the first album by Children of Bodom, I realized they have this problem. Recently I listened to a track from their new album and it's still disjointed as hell.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 12, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> That's not theory's fault, that's being cocky.



Completely disagree. I've been in a band with two guys that had very in-depth knowledge, and while the majority of what they wrote was better than what I wrote, there would be times when they wouldn't listen to _what actually sounded better_, even if it strayed outside of scales. They would often rewrite parts of my songs, make them much more complex and then send them back. 9 times out of 10 I would be in agreement with my guitarist (who knows a lot more theory than I do) that they had actually made the part much worse. They also did it the other way round where they would take something I wrote and extend it into something amazing, but you need to be able to be told when you are getting carried away. Making things more complicated does not always make them better.

It's not just about what you know how to do, you also have to be able to stray outside the lines if the song demands it. Balance is key.


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## Racerdeth (Jul 12, 2011)

I'd still say that's down to poor musicianship rather than the theory itself though. The thing I've noticed with guitarists and theory (as one myself) is once the principles are learnt you're drawn to thinking that way until you're finally 100% comfortable with it and then it's a really useful weapon in the arsenal for understanding sounds and how they affect everything.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 12, 2011)

In that case we're entirely in agreement. There is nothing inherently wrong with theory, but all too often I see people adhering to it as a strict rule book of music that cannot be disobeyed.


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## Laxdude67 (Jul 12, 2011)

personally, i tend to go through spans of creating material that all use the same tempo, scales, and patterns for maybe a week straight then I'll move to other stuff. Try playing "close" stuff right after each other, you'll be amazed what fits!

a great technique I use is to record the riff. Place your marker 2-3 bars before the end of the riff and hit record. listen and let the riff count you in, then play the first thing that comes to mind. repeat until you've gotten results you like, then repeat the whole thing! before you know it you'll have a dance party of riffs for one song!

btw, try finishing your guitar stuff first before you add the drums/bass. your mind can get a little overloaded trying to think of how they all blend, disorientating you from where you were riff-wise.


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