# 30.5'' scale advantages or disadvantages?



## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

So I may be soon building a 30.5'' scale 8 string guitar for a customer and of course its cool and everything but I also told him that they may be some disadvantages..... (comfort, balance etc......)

Maybe that some of you great guys out there already have an 8 string with such a scale and have some playing experience with such an instrument and could speak up about the advantages or disadvantages you have discovered?

To keep things neutral (not always the guitar maker speaking  ) I thought this could be an interesting thing to talk about because of the incredible knowledge that members have in this forum 

Thanks in advance


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## AeonSolus (Apr 8, 2009)

The primary disadvantage would be to adapt to the scale (i have a 70's fender bronco short scale bass strung with guitar strings for fifth tuning wankage , 30.5in scale) specially when you do big chords.. those hurt, also the tension for some people could be deal breaker, in the other hand i've heard longer scales turn to be pretty decent when it comes to "shredding" because of the fretspace on the higher frets.


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## daemon barbeque (Apr 8, 2009)

I only can see the problem with the highE string. That might be hard to bend correctly and wouldn't be as comfy.
But that sclae can help him put lighter strings ,therefor better definition. If you bild a full-sounding guitar ,that wouldn't be a problem either. The F# or F is going to sound sick!

Hope to see a picstory again hahah


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## AeonSolus (Apr 8, 2009)

maybe an .8 gauge string for the high e?


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> I only can see the problem with the highE string. That might be hard to bend correctly and wouldn't be as comfy.
> But that sclae can help him put lighter strings ,therefor better definition. If you bild a full-sounding guitar ,that wouldn't be a problem either. The F# or F is going to sound sick!
> 
> Hope to see a picstory again hahah




I think its a little very very very very big  

30.5 inch = 77.47 centimeters





daemon barbeque said:


> Hope to see a picstory again hahah


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## Variant (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm primarily using a 28 5/8" right now (though a six string) and while it did take some time to adjust, I don't see any glaring disadvantages... and in fact I want to go to a 30"-ish scale when I get a custom eighter. The hardest thing to get used to was keeping the right hand back far enough to mute in the right place, the reach with the left was no real disadvantage. 

That said, many will say baritone scale lengths make stretches much harder and that's probably true, but my personal stretch-ability is utter crap anyway so I just don't incoporate that sort of thing into my playing style. 

As for tension... I use light strings and tune down so I can't say.


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

Variant said:


> I'm primarily using a 28 5/8" right now (though a six string) and while it did take some time to adjust, I don't see any glaring disadvantages... and in fact I want to go to a 30"-ish scale when I get a custom eighter. The hardest thing to get used to was keeping the right hand back far enough to mute in the right place, the reach with the left was no real disadvantage.
> 
> That said, many will say baritone scale lengths make stretches much harder and that's probably true, but my personal stretch-ability is utter crap anyway so I just don't incoporate that sort of thing into my playing style.
> 
> As for tension... I use light strings and tune down so I can't say.



Interesting, thank you for the feedback 

P.S: I'm sending the link of this thread to the customer so that he can read it


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## Scarpie (Apr 8, 2009)

i am suprised that no one has mentioned the tone of the high strings. i have heard several complaints on this very forum alone that at even 30" the first six strings stopped sounding like a guitar and overtones dictated the tone. i imagine the effect to be amplified at 30.5". the scale was great for the bass strings but not so complimentary on the treble strings.


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## Ramsay777 (Apr 8, 2009)

Scarpie said:


> i am suprised that no one has mentioned the tone of the high strings. i have heard several complaints on this very forum alone that at even 30" the first six strings stopped sounding like a guitar and overtones dictated the tone. i imagine the effect to be amplified at 30.5". the scale was great for the bass strings but not so complimentary on the treble strings.



This sounds about right to me  has the customer thought about multi-scale, Patrick?


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## Tiger (Apr 8, 2009)

Ive said time and again that my next extended range will be over 30. My current 30" scale has intonation issues that have been somewhat alleviated by modding my bridge. Is 30.5 the magic number? I dunno, but is 30? Nope.

Playing wise, psh! You are used to it in a day or two.


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

Ramsay777 said:


> This sounds about right to me  has the customer thought about multi-scale, Patrick?



I wish I could build multi scale instruments but at this point i'm afraid i cant, dont have the propper tools and i dont see myself slotting them by hand because this is a job where no mistakes are possible....

But this guitar is for a metal player, he seams to like M E S H U G G A H so this may be the reason of his scale choice.... 

To play as low as hell..... 
He told me that he has a 27'' Ibanez already but that the tension is not there....
So I explained him couple things about scales and strings etc....

But I really just wanted some feedback from you guys as players and with your personal experience....

Thanks for the suggestion


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## possumkiller (Apr 8, 2009)

yeah ive had the ibanez 27 inch scale and didnt like it much. i was told that goint to the 28.625 inch on the intrepid wouldnt make much difference but i definitly feel it and i like the longer scale so much better. honestly i want a 30 pretty bad and i wish rondo could make an intrepid in a 30 that would be so badass! the thing about the treble string tone i guess isnt noticeable on the 28.625 or something because i really love the tone. especially unplugged its really loud and piano like i love it!


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 8, 2009)

i'm getting something above 30" scale as a baritone neck for my strat... i think it'll be awesome!

the main thing is that you need to move the bridge placement towards the rear of the body, so that the neck length sticking out form the body feels about the same. that way you don't really feel like it's so long, it just feels "large".

you have to use thin strings, so a .09 set of strings will be the maximum for the first 6 strings. you also have to remember that the whole thing gets a really tight and bright sound, so you don't need to get really bright pickups to "brighten it up". it already does that.

with the mahogany body and neck, i think it'll "fix" those common complaints alot, so it'll probably sound like awesomesauce to be honest!


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

Which string guages do the dudes of M E S H U G G A H put on their 30'' scale guitars anyway?


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## troyguitar (Apr 8, 2009)

I would highly highly recommend picking up a cheapo short-scale bass before throwing big $$$ (or Euros) on a custom.

Get some of the lightest strings you can find and tune it up to whatever you would tune your custom to and play it for a week, then you can make an informed decision instead of just doing whatever your favorite band is doing.

That's just way too big of an investment to make without being absolutely sure.


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## Koshchei (Apr 8, 2009)

I see ERG design philosophy, quite separate from aesthetic or options, as a two axis differential: Player Expectation versus Instrument Range. For each individual player, the expectation is different, as they have different hands, technique, and playing styles (and hence expectations). Instrument range is self-explanatory, although it brings some challenges to player expectation via playability compromises: bigger neck, longer scale (or multi-scale) in order to accommodate string tension, laws of physics, etc. 

The goal of every designer should be to find the point where player expectation and instrument range intersect, yielding the best possible playing experience for the player.

In my case, a 30" scale is totally out of the question as it doesn't meet my expectations at all - I need to make long stretches all across the neck, and increasing the scale length makes that impossible, unless I somehow grow another joint on each finger. This guy may be different, but I can't see him being able to play the instrument if he suddenly develops a love for piano music from the 1830s.


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## Apophis (Apr 8, 2009)

so I can tell something also 

Everything said above is true  piano like tone, clarity, bigger tension, clear as hell lows, bigger stretches.
As a shred player I can tell that shredding is even EASIER cause using higher positions you have more space for your fingers and it's easier for me at least (and I have small hands btw) to play fast runs. For Meshuggah-like music that scale is a must imo, low notes sounds 10000 times better than at lower scales. Period 

imo there are no real disadvantages of that scale. everything can be fixed using right gauges and looking at strings FLEXIBILITY 

I was telling about that in the past, but I can once again.
At such long scales tension is not everything. Because string is way longer (between nut and bridge) so string flexibility (let's call it feel also) is another factor to think about. What I mean??
I want to tell that 009 string at 30" and 009 at 25,5" can be felt the same. Tension is way different, but because of the distance at longer scale string is tighter (tension-wise) but feels very flexible and bendable, so player will not notice that increased tension (feel-wise), but will tell that string feels bright and articulate. I did some test on my friends and customers and none of them told me anything about bigger tension or something, they told only that "feel" (besides longer scale of course) is the same, but strings are way more clear sounding than at 25,5" scale.

So ending ...
do your own tests - tune 009 at 30" scale to high e, count tension and use other string (something about 011 to have the same tension) and tune to high e also at 25,5" scale guitar, make "feel" tests. Then tune 009 at 25,5" to high e and do tests again. Then tune high e string lower at 30" to have the same tension like high e string at 25,5" and do tests again. Then you will know what I want to tell 

I hope you understand my point


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

Awesome post Sebastian, thanks a lot


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## G0DLESSENDEAVOR (Apr 8, 2009)

possumkiller said:


> Honestly i want a 30 pretty bad and I wish rondo could make an intrepid in a 30 that would be so badass!


 
I emailed rondo music to see if he does custom agiles. The reply I got was quick, here's his reply. 

Thanks AJ - yes we make custom versions of the Agile Intrepid and Interceptor 8 string guitars. But the custom shop is only open during idle periods. So probably not until Mid summer

kurt

That settle's it.



hufschmid said:


> Which string guages do the dudes of M E S H U G G A H put on their 30'' scale guitars anyway?


 
In a video interveiw I recall Hagstrom saying they use a light 9 gauge, with 52 and 70 for the low Bb and F. It sounds very clean at there live show's. Thordendal bend's with ease. An extra .5 to the scale wouldn't make much of a difference. This was a topic with the schecter hellraiser 26.5 and and the stephen baritone scale, 27.


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

On my 8 strings, currently i'm using a 27.5'' scale, I'm using a .72 for the low F sharp..... a regular 10.46 + .59 for the 7 and its works great.....


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## Apophis (Apr 8, 2009)

I use 009 012 016 024 032 044 060 080 for ballanced tension and "feel"


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## demolisher (Apr 8, 2009)

Apophis said:


> I use 009 012 016 024 032 044 060 080 for ballanced tension and "feel"




In your experience with 30 inch or longer scales does it make the low strings sound bassier or more trebeley, I don't mean tight.


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

Apophis said:


> I use 009 012 016 024 032 044 060 080 for ballanced tension and "feel"



yes optimised setting.... 


 Seb, I must try this one day, send me a set against some toblerone


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## Apophis (Apr 8, 2009)

demolisher said:


> In your experience with 30 inch or longer scales does it make the low strings sound bassier or more trebeley, I don't mean tight.



it's not so easy 
depends what wood you use for the neck and for the body. But overall I can tell that strings sound clearer. There is not more bas in bas  for sure


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## Fred (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm so glad I went with 30" for my 8, takes a while to get used to but I haven't had any problems whatsoever with tension or tone so far. I don't have huge hands by any means, and for sure it can get quite tiring playing for extended periods on the lower frets, but I figure it's all good exercise, haha.

In other words, go for it! .


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## yevetz (Apr 8, 2009)

Apophis said:


> I did some test on my friends and customers and none of them told me anything about bigger tension or something, they told only that "feel" (besides longer scale of course) is the same, but strings are way more clear sounding than at 25,5" scale.



You was build them guitar with wrong scale and then was look how they will react? 



Just joke.

Cool post, thanks for info I wasn't know it before


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## TomAwesome (Apr 8, 2009)

I'll be mostly reiterating stuff that has already been said, but in my experience with a 30" scale 6-string and a 28.625" 8-string:

The longer scale rocks for the really low strings.

The longer scale rocks somewhat less for higher strings, IMO. The higher strings are affected much in the same way as the low strings, and that may or may not work for the player depending on what he/she is going for. If that kind of stiff and sterile tone that people like Dino and the guys from Meshuggah make great use of on the high strings is what is desired, then great. For people who want the top 6 strings to work more like a regular 6-string guitar, though, it doesn't work quite as well.

There's also the matter of string gauges. I like lighter strings, but the extra scale of the Intrepid has me using lighter strings than I really want to to get a balanced set. As a result of the really thin gauges, the high strings can sometimes come out a bit more shrill than I'd like. It's a maple neck-thru, though, so darker pickups might fix this. This is what I've got:

E4b .008" Octave4Plus string
B3b .010" PL == 10.22#
G3b .013" PL == 10.88#
D3b .017" PL == 10.44#
A2b .026" NW == 11.6#
E2b .036" NW == 12.31#
A1b .052" NW == 11.01#
E1b .068" NW == 10.87#

I have four plain strings, and I'm not stringing it up with an extra high string. Next time, I might just forgo the balanced tension thing and use thicker strings on the high end.


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## hufschmid (Apr 8, 2009)

Awesome post Tom, thank you very much


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## Sroth Saraiel (Apr 8, 2009)

Nice info and great thread!!!!!!!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 8, 2009)

Sroth Saraiel said:


> Nice info and great thread!!!!!!!



+1 good for newbies like me to learn all this


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2009)

as said, meshuggah uses a .70 bass string for the low F, a .52 for the Bb, and then a standard .46-.09 set for the rest. i think it sounds fairly balanced, at least the .70 VS the .52 is nicely balanced. 

the thing about longer scales is that the string feels more flexible due to it's length, even though the tension is tighter, in a way. so while the strings feel tighter than they would on shorter scales, they don't feel "stiffened". they feel really flexible instead.


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## cataclysm_child (Apr 9, 2009)

The only problem I have with my 30" is that the neck is too heavy, so when I have it on my lap it feels like it´s going to tip over. It´s not really a problem, but I would like it to be more balanced. So you can keep that in mind Patrick. The body of mine is pretty small and the wood is swamp ash which is pretty light and the neck is all kind of woods, wenge, bloodwood, maple + the ebony fretboard, so it´s pretty heavy.

And also bending the strings is a little bit different, but not a problem. I also like soloing better on the higher frets, more space  But then again it´s harder to stretch at the lower frets.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2009)

definitely have the horn extend as far as the 12th fret, and have the bridge placement waaay far back. keeps the balance where it's supposed to be


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## hufschmid (Apr 9, 2009)

Yeah I'm aware of that thanks 

But.....


Things wont be easy because he wants the body to be similar to this one, yeah my necks are bold on, the entire heel portion will have to be redesigned......

I dont think this body design will work that great with a 30.5'' scale....


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## Harry (Apr 9, 2009)

Just curious, Seb or Patrick, what pickups do you recommend to guys that use guitars of scale lengths like 30.5 inches? Is there a pickup in particular?


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## Ishan (Apr 9, 2009)

It'll neck dive like crazy for sure, strato&#239;d shapes or bass style single cuts are the way to go IMO


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## hufschmid (Apr 9, 2009)

HughesJB4 said:


> Just curious, Seb or Patrick, what pickups do you recommend to guys that use guitars of scale lengths like 30.5 inches? Is there a pickup in particular?



Hufschmid pickups of course


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## Harry (Apr 9, 2009)

Heh, guess it depends on how much the player cares about neck dive or not.
Some guys are willing to live with it if it means they have their desired guitar.
Heavy materials help with balance too in these situations, if not so much helping out your back and shoulders


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2009)

if you extend the upper "nodule" far enough, and incorporate it with the overall design, you can get it close enough to the 12th fret to help balance it.


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## daemon barbeque (Apr 9, 2009)

Idon't mind the neck-dive thing so much ,since I play mostly with the neck showing the moon. I would trade a diving neck to a better tone/clarity any time!


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## TomAwesome (Apr 9, 2009)

MF_Kitten said:


> if you extend the upper "nodule" far enough, and incorporate it with the overall design, you can get it close enough to the 12th fret to help balance it.





Something like this would help the balance immensely, and I think it looks pretty nice, too.







Don't mind the sloppy Photoshopping.


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## hufschmid (Apr 9, 2009)

Looks like a good solution, thank you

He is comming tomorrow to visit from Germany 

 to the hours of driving..... 

So we will know if he wants this design or my super strat style design....


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## TomAwesome (Apr 9, 2009)

Updated the Photochop to look just slightly less crappy.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2009)

i think the upper nodule neets to be flatter towards the body, and the "mid-cuts" into the body would have to be placed differrently.

i think instead of extending the nodule, try moving the whole "scale" (like, from headstock to behind the bridge) further back, so the nodule as it already is, ends up close to the 12th fret. then, you just make the lower cutaway deeper. that'll look much nicer.


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## TomAwesome (Apr 9, 2009)

^ That works, too, especially for longer scales.


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## G0DLESSENDEAVOR (Apr 9, 2009)

That explorer design is similiar to the iceman Thordedal use's for a custom. Wonder how heavy the finished product will be. I read from "WikiAnswers," some Les Paul model's from the 80's weigh in at 11 pounds at the most.


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## plyta (Apr 10, 2009)

TomAwesome said:


> ...
> There's also the matter of string gauges. I like lighter strings, but the extra scale of the Intrepid has me using lighter strings than I really want to to get a balanced set. As a result of the really thin gauges, the high strings can sometimes come out a bit more shrill than I'd like. It's a maple neck-thru, though, so darker pickups might fix this. This is what I've got:
> 
> E4b .008" Octave4Plus string
> ...



I have already bought these for my upcoming Intrepid:
len 28.625"

E4b .008" PL == 11.65#
B3b .011" PL == 12.36#
G3b .014" PL == 12.62#
D3b .019" PL == 13.04#
A2b .028" NW == 13.42#
E2b .038" NW == 13.6#
B1b .052" NW == 13.87#
F1 .070" NW == 14.45#

How's the .017" for the fourth string?

I'm worried my .019" plain might feel weird tuned to D3b


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## Ishan (Apr 10, 2009)

Don't go plain for the D3b, also I find your tensions a bit low really but it's a matter of preference.


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## troyguitar (Apr 10, 2009)

That's pretty close to the normal tension of 9's at 25.5 in standard on a 6-string.

I also probably wouldn't go plain on the D3b though, it would just feel weird when playing any "normal" stuff.


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## hufschmid (Apr 16, 2009)

Made a little virtual mokup here...

Turned it into an 8 string, and extended the scale so that is becomes a 30.5''.....

Gives a rough idea....


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## Ishan (Apr 16, 2009)

That thing looks HUGE!!


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## hufschmid (Apr 16, 2009)

Ishan said:


> That thing looks HUGE!!



The pleasure of 3d building


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## Apophis (Apr 16, 2009)

wow, what a MONSTER


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## Xanithon (Apr 17, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> Yeah I'm aware of that thanks
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...



Yo hufschmid, i has this guitar and at 24.75" scale, its quite neck heavy.


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## guitarplayerone (Apr 18, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> Which string guages do the dudes of M E S H U G G A H put on their 30'' scale guitars anyway?



straight from the horse's mouth
meshuggah's new 8's that they are using are 30.5" scale, not 30. 
gauges are "09-46, 52 and a 70"

evidence 

[Youtubevid]rR7qSHp2-lo[/MEDIA]


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## plyta (Apr 19, 2009)

Here Marten says it's 32" 



At least I would like to have my guitar built aruond 25.5" +3fret scale which would result in something more like ~30.325" neck  (which is neither 30" nor 30.5"  )


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## G0DLESSENDEAVOR (Apr 19, 2009)

I like the virtual mock-up. Now, since that is obviously you in a super cyborg form. How will a human stand to hold that thing!? What about weight's?


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## drmosh (Apr 19, 2009)

plyta said:


> Here Marten says it's 32"



But he also said in the video before that they went through several models figuring out what they wanted.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 19, 2009)

he also says in another video they usually have no fucking clue what the specs on their guitars are, they just play it and like the sound 

the scale lengths have been confirmed by our very own Durero here, to be 30.5"


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## hufschmid (Apr 19, 2009)

MF_Kitten said:


> he also says in another video they usually have no fucking clue what the specs on their guitars are, they just play it and like the sound
> 
> the scale lengths have been confirmed by our very own Durero here, to be 30.5"



I can also confirm since I know bands who tour with them 



G0DLESSENDEAVOR said:


> I like the virtual mock-up. Now, since that is obviously you in a super cyborg form. How will a human stand to hold that thing!? What about weight's?



Lol dude as you say, its virtual and will stay virtual, pixels dont have any weight


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## G0DLESSENDEAVOR (Apr 19, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> Lol dude as you say, its virtual and will stay virtual, pixels dont have any weight


 
Yeah, but I read about weight's placed inside the solid body to maintain easy balance? Would you do that to this design?


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## hufschmid (Apr 19, 2009)

G0DLESSENDEAVOR said:


> Yeah, but I read about weight's placed inside the solid body to maintain easy balance? Would you do that to this design?



I wont because the customer changed his mind and is going for something else 

I'm working on a new 8 string design at the moment, but not the same shape at all..... Its going to be a suprise


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## PlagueX1 (Apr 19, 2009)

Marten LOVESsssss talking lol


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