# Modeler live tone vs bedroom playing



## Jaspergep (Oct 4, 2015)

Hey guys!

In my band we have two guitarists who play through an Axe FX MKII -> Matrix GT1000FX and into both respective cabs.
When playing at rehearsals we play at loud volumes, which is how I programmed my Axe FX to sound good at. 

The problem is when I play at bedroom volume, the patch sounds bad (through my cab). Very muddy and a complete lack of high end. 
This problem can be applied to all modelers I think since the tone stays the same over volume increase.

Do you modeler guys who play with a poweramp-cab setup have different patches for bedroom playing and live situations? 
And what kind of differences should I take in mind?

You guys must know more about this kind of stuff.

Cheers and thanks!


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## Baelzebeard (Oct 4, 2015)

It's not just about modelers, it's about the way humans perceive sound at soft versus loud volume. It's just a seemingly unavoidable natural phenomenon. 

If you do the reverse and dial in a tone at low volume, when you crank it up to band volume it will probably sound terrible. In my experience it ends up sounding harshly bright.

If you want to practice at home at low volume, just tweak your patches and save low volume versions for that purpose.


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## Alex Kenivel (Oct 4, 2015)

Yep, different patches for me 

Although, I'm not too big of a tone snob enough to really care about all the small tonal differences. If it doesn't sound like sh1t then I'm okay with it. The biggest difference to me is gating effects between bedroom and stage volumes


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## Lokasenna (Oct 4, 2015)

There's also the playing-with-the-band vs playing-by-yourself thing to consider - a tone that sounds great in a full band mix may not be the most fun for jamming with at home, and a great at-home sound will probably be .... with the rest of the band on top.

In general, if you've got a bedroom tone you like, you should consider the following adjustments for the with-the-band version:

- Roll back the gain. You want to make sure there's some clarity and definition to your sound, especially for fast gallopy metal stuff. If everyone plays live with their at-home level of gain, it becomes a sloppy mess really fast.

- Turn your bass knob down. There's a bass player standing right beside you - let him worry about the bass frequencies. Plus there's that guy in the back beating on things.

- Turn your mid knob up. It doesn't have to be much, but this is the frequency range where guitars typically get to be on top. Scooping your mids is all well and good for getting a huge, heavy tone, but without the mids you'll just vanish in a band mix.

If you've got a tone that sounds great with the band, consider doing the opposite of all of those - turn up the gain a little, turn up the bass a little, turn down the mids a little.


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## Rizzo (Oct 4, 2015)

Baelzebeard said:


> It's not just about modelers, it's about the way humans perceive sound at soft versus loud volume. It's just a seemingly unavoidable natural phenomenon.


Indeed, AKA the Fletcher-Munson effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher–Munson_curves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Your only choice is to build different patches, each crafted at the volume you're going to play on it.


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## Jaspergep (Oct 4, 2015)

Thanks for all the feedback! Appreciate it.
Decreasing gain definately helps to get your live tone more clear. 

When playing at home I feel like more gain gives more sustain (and it just sounds better).
The bass frequency is always hard for me to dial in right because when playing with cabs I tend to want to "feel" the tone rather than hearing it 
Low volume at home gives it too much bass in comparison.

So my tone live is more bass-y than the tone at home.

Maybe I should roll back the bass a little bit.
Anyone experiences this as well?


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## Rizzo (Oct 4, 2015)

Jaspergep said:


> So my tone live is more bass-y than the tone at home.
> 
> Maybe I should roll back the bass a little bit.
> Anyone experiences this as well?


Again, in poor words the FM effect implies a "stretching" of the soundwave proportionally to volume (loudness).
So, try to visualize it mentally: s -> S

compared to your bedroom tone, your same live tone will have scooped mids, way more treble and way more bass.
I'd keep gain minimal, as well as bass. Give it plenty more mids and roll back the treble a bit.

I've been there before going direct with a modeler in my live gigs


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## Jaspergep (Nov 13, 2015)

Just a quick update: I rolled back the bass and added some mids.
I dialed in too much bass in my original patch, which gotten buried in the live mix because of that.
We played live through 2 ENGL4x12's and the guitars sounded very clear (solo's as well because of a slight dB boost).
I'm very content about our sound now.

Thanks guys!


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## Alex Kenivel (Nov 16, 2015)

Y know, I take it back.. 

When I create a patch, I try it out at band practice volumes (which is pretty loud), and then with the band altogether, I tweak it further. When I'm satisfied, I stick to THAT patch, even at low levels by myself. I have no need for unusable patches


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Nov 17, 2015)

I do a basic setup with the guitar by itself, then I play against backing tracks with drums, bass, & sometimes 2nd guitar & keys to see how it sits in the mix, then tweak as needed.

This is also how I final tweak the volumes of each preset and or boost function.

Once I've done this, I've seldom ever had to make a tweak in a live situation, and FOH has been very pleased that all they have to do is get a unity gain signal, bypass their eq, and just run a fader for me.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Nov 17, 2015)

Mainly have to turn the gain up at home for me. Pod HD power amp setup. My patches are setup for gigs so the gain is backed off quite a bit, but at volume it's plenty of gain. I'm sure if i really wanted to tweak my home tone, i'd have to do more than that, but it's generally pretty good with just adding a bit more gain.


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## meowfaceman (Nov 19, 2015)

What kind of cabs? I've got an Accugroove FRFR cab that seems pretty faithful at various volumes.

Edit: Nevermind, just saw ENGL 4x12. Glad you solved your issue!


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## Jaspergep (Nov 20, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Y know, I take it back..
> 
> When I create a patch, I try it out at band practice volumes (which is pretty loud), and then with the band altogether, I tweak it further. When I'm satisfied, I stick to THAT patch, even at low levels by myself. I have no need for unusable patches



I don't switch at home either.
I'm too lazy to maintain different patches 
The patch sounds decent enough at normal levels, at live volumes it sounds way better 

The coolest thing is that we both play through my Axe FX so both of the guitars are leveled quite evenly.
As if recently I discovered that the power amp volume of my guitar has to be a bit higher because of my cable length from AMP -> CAB


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## Drew (Nov 24, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Y know, I take it back..
> 
> When I create a patch, I try it out at band practice volumes (which is pretty loud), and then with the band altogether, I tweak it further. When I'm satisfied, I stick to THAT patch, even at low levels by myself. I have no need for unusable patches



Yeah, I don't use a modeler, but I do more or less this; ever since I started to get into recording and realized an amp "in the room" sounded nothing like an amp as heard through a SM57 half an inch off the grill, I started EQing my amp to sound good to the mic, not in the room, and then just got used to jamming around with a sound that sounded dark and muddy from ten feet back and six feet off the floor. Believe it or not, your ear recalibrates pretty quickly, to kind of "hear" what the mic is likely hearing, rather than in the room, and you know he tone is going to kill recorded from the room sound.


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