# 2023 Jeff Hanneman. Just what Ive been looking for!!!!



## mmr007 (May 7, 2022)

JH-600 CTM


One of the world's leading manufacturers of high quality guitars and basses.




www.espguitars.com





My credit cards are gonna regret this….


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 7, 2022)

Oh damn that one came out of nowhere.


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## mmr007 (May 7, 2022)




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## MaxOfMetal (May 7, 2022)

Finally, a Hanneman that won't start fights on the internet.


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## Spaced Out Ace (May 8, 2022)

Nothing about that really says Hanneman.


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## mmr007 (May 8, 2022)

Based off his second favorite Heineken guitar with red star inlays.


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## sirbuh (May 8, 2022)

wonder if there is a chance of a q4'22 production drip?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 8, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Nothing about that really says Hanneman.


He had a couple of guitars with the red star inlays. The Heineken ones for example. They were actually his main guitars before he died.



sirbuh said:


> wonder if there is a chance of a q4'22 production drip?



Don't get your hopes up. It's already looking like ESP's current batch of 2022 LTD guitars are gonna be delayed.


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## sirbuh (May 8, 2022)

Like to think they are just being overly responsive to the supply chain issues, but you are prlly right. Hopefully, this implies further JH models.


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## narad (May 8, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Finally, a Hanneman that won't start fights on the internet.



Maybe you didn't notice the Kahler.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 8, 2022)

narad said:


> Maybe you didn't notice the Kahler.



I suppose it does have EMGs too. Don't forget it's just another black guitar.


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## mmr007 (May 8, 2022)

I promise I will not gorget its just another awesome black guitar


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## Protestheriphery (May 8, 2022)

I'm not too knowledgeable about Hanneman signatures. Is it a re-issue? Or a version w a more basic finish?


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## Metropolis (May 8, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Finally, a Hanneman that won't start fights on the internet.


So they went from nazi symbols to communist red stars, there you have a fight


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## MaxOfMetal (May 8, 2022)

Metropolis said:


> So they went from nazi symbols to communist red stars, there you have a fight



As long as it's not those Illuminati pyramids I think we're safe.


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## STRHelvete (May 8, 2022)

So it's just an M guitar in black with a Kahler and dual humbuckers. So they made sure there was no other M LTD guitar with two humbuckers. Hm..ah well.


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## mmr007 (May 8, 2022)




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## gunch (May 8, 2022)

Why* DID* Kerry and Jeff stan Kahlers so hard in their careers?


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## Blytheryn (May 8, 2022)

gunch said:


> Why* DID* Kerry and Jeff stan Kahlers so hard in their careers?


Was probably like what they got used to playing on?


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## gunch (May 8, 2022)

Blytheryn said:


> Was probably like what they got used to playing on?


That makes too much* SENSE*


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## youngthrasher9 (May 8, 2022)

gunch said:


> Why* DID* Kerry and Jeff stan Kahlers so hard in their careers?


Jeff was quoted saying he could pull up further on a kahler vs a Floyd. 

As far as sig guitars for dead artists, one can only hope that his family gets a kick back from these. I’m sure they do for legal reasons but hopefully they have a say in new releases.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 8, 2022)

You play a certain bridge for years, and you get used to it. Kahler's are apparently really, really easy on the hand, both due to the feel and the fact they're slinkier than a Floyd.


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## Chanson (May 8, 2022)

Is this identical to the previous one except for the inlays?


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## Spaced Out Ace (May 8, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He had a couple of guitars with the red star inlays. The Heineken ones for example. They were actually his main guitars before he died.


Aside from the stars, nothing really sets this apart.


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## CapinCripes (May 8, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You play a certain bridge for years, and you get used to it. Kahler's are apparently really, really easy on the hand, both due to the feel and the fact they're slinkier than a Floyd.


Most of my early playing time was on a kahler and I have had several. They feel like home. They are insanely adjustable, you can palm mute like you would on a fixed bridge without going sharp, feels rock solid under your hand, since the cam sits behind the saddles you can pull up without the action lowering till it frets out, they allow for neck angle unlike recessed Floyd's so if you are transferring from a TOM it feels more natural than a Floyd, nowadays there are several different roller and cam materials to adjust your sound. Best fine tuners on planet earth, easier string changes.

There are downsides in that unless you slap the string lock right behind the nut your going to get the "kahlers don't stay in tune" problem. This can be rectified entirely on new builds by just putting a Floyd nut on. String breakage at the ball end is real but not extreme if you get the ball ends sitting properly in the hooks. Also you can't really flutter very well.


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## Metal-Box (May 8, 2022)

I’m all over this like a spider monkey.


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## Trashgreen (May 8, 2022)

So specs for this one says 42mm nut, his signature is normally 41mm, wounder if ESP changed this or they did the usual typo "can't get the specs right"??


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## mmr007 (May 8, 2022)

Interestingly the nut width decreased on his sigs over the years from when it was introduced large scale in 2004. I would imagine that his personal preference no longer a factor they may be going back to his original specs assuming based on other ESP/LTD offerings 41mm is not very popular with buyers.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 8, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Interestingly the nut width decreased on his sigs over the years from when it was introduced large scale in 2004. I would imagine that his personal preference no longer a factor they may be going back to his original specs assuming based on other ESP/LTD offerings 41mm is not very popular with buyers.


Could also be ESP sticking to 42mm nuts due to supply issues.


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## BusinessMan (May 8, 2022)

Cool, but not $1700 cool. Ltd prices are stupid these days.


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## ClownShoes (May 9, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Nothing about that really says Hanneman.


Except for the all black ESP, Kahler & heineken star inlays.

Not sure I agree with LTD models having a 'CTM' moniker. Should be reserved for ESP custom shop models.


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## ClownShoes (May 9, 2022)

BusinessMan said:


> Cool, but not $1700 cool. Ltd prices are stupid these days.


It's just the way import sig guitars are going. The EVH import Frankenstein is way overpriced, yet boomers ate it up.

The older the target market, the more they can afford it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (May 9, 2022)

vertigo08 said:


> Except for the all black ESP, Kahler & heineken star inlays.
> 
> Not sure I agree with LTD models having a 'CTM' moniker. Should be reserved for ESP custom shop models.


All black guitars aren’t solely a Hanneman thing.


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## Adieu (May 9, 2022)

Wasn't he dead?

How does that not prevent people from releasing new signature models in this day and age?


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## MaxOfMetal (May 9, 2022)

Adieu said:


> Wasn't he dead?
> 
> How does that not prevent people from releasing new signature models in this day and age?



Jimi Hendrix died like 50 years ago and has had more signature gear than like at least two members of Periphery. 

As long as there are fans and estates that want cash posthumous signature stuff will be a thing.


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## eaeolian (May 9, 2022)

Blytheryn said:


> Was probably like what they got used to playing on?


Exactly this, I believe.


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## eaeolian (May 9, 2022)

Adieu said:


> Wasn't he dead?
> 
> How does that not prevent people from releasing new signature models in this day and age?


I'm guessing the proceeds go to his estate, like Dime's did.


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## Ross82 (May 9, 2022)

Ooooooooh now that is interesting. I was just watching an EC-JH600 on reverb but I was too slow to act on and sold. I'll be watching this with interest!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 9, 2022)

Adieu said:


> Wasn't he dead?
> 
> How does that not prevent people from releasing new signature models in this day and age?


The JH600 isn't exactly new. It's decades old. They just refreshed it with new inlays. Even if you wanna move goalposts somehow and call this "new", one new guitar in the span of a decade since Hanneman's death isn't something I'd consider tasteless. This isn't Dimebag brain rot.


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## Seabeast2000 (May 9, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Jimi Hendrix died like 50 years ago and has had more signature gear than like at least two members of Periphery.
> 
> As long as there are fans and estates that want cash posthumous signature stuff will be a thing.



Wasn't there like a huge gap in JH sig stuff and his death? I always got the impression someone got ahold of the family much later on then started building the brand in earnest. Quite successfully of course.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 9, 2022)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Wasn't there like a huge gap in JH sig stuff and his death? I always got the impression someone got ahold of the family much later on then started building the brand in earnest. Quite successfully of course.



Assuming by "JH" you mean Jimi Hendrix and not Jeff Hanneman. 

Yeah, Jimi's old man wasn't really into marketing like that. It wasn't until his sister took over that things sort of went off the rails.


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## Seabeast2000 (May 9, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Assuming by "JH" you mean Jimi Hendrix and not Jeff Hanneman.
> 
> Yeah, Jimi's old man wasn't really into marketing like that. It wasn't until his sister took over that things sort of went off the rails.



haha, yes Hendrix. Makes sense, I do remember the sudden saturation of Hendrix like, late 90s/early 00's.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 9, 2022)

Seabeast2000 said:


> haha, yes Hendrix. Makes sense, I do remember the sudden saturation of Hendrix like, late 90s/early 00's.



It wasn't till the 90's that Janie had a lot of influence.


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## Wahwah (May 9, 2022)

I can't get past ESP putting LTD on a guitar that costs that much. Their branding is all messed up, IMO.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 9, 2022)

Wahwah said:


> I can't get past ESP putting LTD on a guitar that costs that much. Their branding is all messed up, IMO.


BC Rich, Schecter, and Jackson are also putting out Korean-made guitars that cost this much. Welcome to the new norm.


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## Wahwah (May 9, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> BC Rich, Schecter, and Jackson are also putting out Korean-made guitars that cost this much. Welcome to the new norm.


I didn't even know LTD meant Korea. 

But yeah, totally, pricing is crazy now. I picked up a Am Pro Strat a couple of years ago, can't believe they're now more than 20% more expensive.


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## Crash Dandicoot (May 9, 2022)

I grabbed a mid-80's ESP Tele roughly half a decade ago and paid less than 1200 CAD for it - off of bloody _eBay_. My bloody Ohmura-7 was less than 3k and my particular generation of it was a full-on custom order. Granted they were both used (absolutely mint, though!), but contrasting that with new LTD pricing today just hurts.


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## mmr007 (May 9, 2022)

None of these MIM products come with a case whereas the Hanneman does, and ESP cases are very nice. Besides, for every Hanneman you don't buy because of price, ESP knows I'll buy two. They did their homework on this one.

Probably a subject for another thread (which I guarantee there are already 20 up now) we need to get past this particular brand (Epiphone, LTD...) is not worth a certain amount. These brands have been putting out increasing great products. This happens with automobiles too. A brand evolves into a more luxury version commanding higher price and eventually the narrative changes. I believe that Gibson's attitude towards Epiphone "You're not a Gibson and you never will be" has changed as they realize that $1000 quality instrument will attract consumers more than a $00 low quality one. LTD is the same.


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## mmr007 (May 9, 2022)

Today will also be NGD for me. I picked up a NOS Hanneman which is arriving at work today. That guitar started this whole thing. I was talking to my buddy and told him I found a discontinued brand new Hanny with warranty and everything and sent him a pic.

He responded..."that's not new. The new ones have some sort of red star on the fretboard"

me..."what?!"


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## sirbuh (May 9, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Probably a subject for another thread (which I guarantee there are already 20 up now) we need to get past this particular brand (Epiphone, LTD...) is not worth a certain amount. These brands have been putting out increasing great products. This happens with automobiles too. A brand evolves into a more luxury version commanding higher price and eventually the narrative changes. I believe that Gibson's attitude towards Epiphone "You're not a Gibson and you never will be" has changed as they realize that $1000 quality instrument will attract consumers more than a $00 low quality one. LTD is the same.


I think Inflation is playing a part in that due to anchoring. Agree with you that px lvl is fine for current build quality.


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## Ross82 (May 9, 2022)

Wahwah said:


> I can't get past ESP putting LTD on a guitar that costs that much. Their branding is all messed up, IMO.


I can't believe this is a surprise to you these days, Indo Strandberg's are into the $3k CAD, Schecter Banshee Mach is over $2k CAD and thats MIK.

Guitar pricing is getting like house pricing, sky rocketing for no discernible reason other than "COVID prices".


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## vortex_infinium (May 9, 2022)

vertigo08 said:


> Not sure I agree with LTD models having a 'CTM' moniker. Should be reserved for ESP custom shop models.



Interesting you mention that. Even though I'm not against it, in this case it's kinda just a JH not a CTM? When I saw the new 600 series CTM I did think to myself, _okay I guess CTM is being slapped on whatever they want now_.


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## Dooky (May 10, 2022)

Is the only difference with this one the inlay?
Even if it is, I think it looks great. Back in the day every second guitar seemed to be gloss black, but now satin black finishes seem to make up the large majority of black guitars. Love me a gloss black guitar with a bound ebony fretboard.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 10, 2022)

vortex_infinium said:


> Interesting you mention that. Even though I'm not against it, in this case it's kinda just a JH not a CTM? When I saw the new 600 series CTM I did think to myself, _okay I guess CTM is being slapped on whatever they want now_.



They did always sort of play fast and loose with that one, meaning different things per model and sometimes just thrown on randomly.


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## Marked Man (May 11, 2022)

Metropolis said:


> So they went from nazi symbols to communist red stars, there you have a fight



Heineken red stars.


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## Manurack (May 11, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I suppose it does have EMGs too. Don't forget it's just another black guitar.



And a glorified one too with his name on it. Fuck it's like Dean Guitars making money off Dimebag Darrell's name all over again.


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## Marked Man (May 11, 2022)

gunch said:


> Why* DID* Kerry and Jeff stan Kahlers so hard in their careers?



Because Kahlers have a unique feel vs Floyds or Tune-o-matics. I have 3 Hannemans, one with a Floyd and two with Kahlers, and the Kahlers just have better mojo when it comes to fast, thrashy Slayeresque riffs. And the feel during dives is different. Overall, I still like Floyds better, but Kahlers do tremors better. 

There is a very high chance I'll get one of these new models. First mod will be an EMG SPC mid boost to replace the tone knob (who turns down the tone knob while playing Slayer??!) and maybe steel rollers for the Kahler.


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## Marked Man (May 11, 2022)

Manurack said:


> And a glorified one too with his name on it. Fuck it's like Dean Guitars making money off Dimebag Darrell's name all over again.



Would you rather famous deceased guitarists simply fade from memory??!

This keeps the legend alive.


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## mmr007 (May 11, 2022)

When I think of ESP and Hanneman ….souless cash grab is all that comes to mind. Definitely. Their brand is based on associating with Jeff’s corpse for sure


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## Marked Man (May 11, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You play a certain bridge for years, and you get used to it. Kahler's are apparently really, really easy on the hand, both due to the feel and the fact they're slinkier than a Floyd.



A lot of the people who talk trash about Kahlers have never spent much/any time with one, let alone owned one that was well setup. They excel for thrash, that's for sure. In particular, I like how the lower strings feel when playing warp speed alt-picked riffs, more effortless to get a consistent sound.


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## Marked Man (May 11, 2022)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Wasn't there like a huge gap in JH sig stuff and his death? I always got the impression someone got ahold of the family much later on then started building the brand in earnest. Quite successfully of course.



EDIT: I just saw you were referring to Hendrix.....there wasn't much of a sig gear market until the very first Clapton Sig strat in the late '80s.

There was far more interest in Hanneman sig gear when he and Slayer were alive. They did a limited run of 100 Urban Camo guitars (I have one of them) just after his death, but sales did not skyrocket like EVH because JH didn't have that kind of fame. I think the limited LP model was already out before his death, but it's not like there was a glut of new stuff to cash in. I don't understand why people worry about it anyway as long as it's done with respect. I don't know if his wife still gets any royalties for JH gear (almost certainly not), but I bet the dollar amounts are much, MUCH smaller than most people imagine. You're not going to become "rich" from selling sig gear compared to a successful music career unless maybe you really tap into the Yuppie Boomer market like Joe Bonamassa or have worldwide appeal like Steve Vai or very few others. You get rich (or not) from your recording contracts, songwriting credits, and successful bigtime touring.

It's depressing, but there are plenty of clueless children who have product opinion channels on Youtube who make far more money than most serious musical artists.


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## Dooky (May 13, 2022)

Manurack said:


> And a glorified one too with his name on it. Fuck it's like Dean Guitars making money off Dimebag Darrell's name all over again.


So are you in the camp that believes that once an artist like Jeff or Alexi dies the guitar company should just cease making their sig models?


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## Zeppelinskies (May 13, 2022)

Manurack said:


> And a glorified one too with his name on it. Fuck it's like Dean Guitars making money off Dimebag Darrell's name all over again.


I don't think that's fair - the UK ESP dealer told me that this was originally going to be the next sig model JH before he died, replacing the weird EC one and the H Dagger, and that his wife is getting a percentage as per the original agreement. Either way, this is a subtle tribute to one of his favourite guitars, not a technicolour gang rape like Dean did with Dimebag.

I love this one and will be getting it to go with my Eagle, H Dagger and S&Key. They may 'only' be black superstrats with EMGs, but they're very close to what my favourite guitarist of all time played, and for signature models they're actually pretty subtle (S&Key not included).


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## Blytheryn (May 13, 2022)

Zeppelinskies said:


> I don't think that's fair - the UK ESP dealer told me that this was originally going to be the next sig model JH before he died, replacing the weird EC one and the H Dagger, and that his wife is getting a percentage as per the original agreement. Either way, this is a subtle tribute to one of his favourite guitars, not a technicolour gang rape like Dean did with Dimebag.
> 
> I love this one and will be getting it to go with my Eagle, H Dagger and S&Key. They may 'only' be black superstrats with EMGs, but they're very close to what my favourite guitarist of all time played, and for signature models they're actually pretty subtle (S&Key not included).


You have an ESP S&Key?


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## Zeppelinskies (May 13, 2022)

Blytheryn said:


> You have an ESP S&Key?


Had the ESP model, but sold it as it was too precious to ever play. Now I have the LTD version, which gets played constantly


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## Blytheryn (May 13, 2022)

Zeppelinskies said:


> Had the ESP model, but sold it as it was too precious to ever play. Now I have the LTD version, which gets played constantly


That’s a good call. Which S&Key? The black one?


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## JD27 (May 13, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Finally, a Hanneman that won't start fights on the internet.



I don’t know, current events in 2022 might somehow make a red star more offensive.


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## Church2224 (May 13, 2022)

I am all over this. I have wanted a Hanneman model since I started playing. Always want the ESP version but too expensive and the quality of Korean guitars has gone up a lot lately

People are looking at this as a Cash Grab. This is just ONE guitar ESP is making for a well respected guitarist people like.

Need I remind people at one point Dean had twenty Or Thirty Dimebag models? That was more of a cash grab than this. And as far as Price goes everything is going up in price right now because of the economy, supply chain, ect. I work in commercial and residential landscaping and I have seen lawn mowers go up two thousand dollars a unit since last year. Everything is expensive and going up right now...


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## Blytheryn (May 14, 2022)

JD27 said:


> I don’t know, current events in 2022 might somehow make a red star more offensive.


You actually made me want this… Props.


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## sell2792 (May 15, 2022)

Way more money for (in my opinion) way uglier inlays.

The real shame is we didn’t get a 600/1000 series urban camo JH.


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## mmr007 (May 15, 2022)

sell2792 said:


> Way more money for (in my opinion) way uglier inlays.
> 
> The real shame is we didn’t get a 600/1000 series urban camo JH.


Valid points and I agree. I am glad we are getting an expansion of the H&Dagger which is getting tired. I think my biggest problem with the red star inlays is that in that pic there is no white outline to the stars which they should have and although Hanneman's are always ebony that neck is almost as light as pau ferro which mutes the impact of the red star.

2023 is the 10th anniversary of Jeff's passing. Fans of his guitars can hope that more is coming from ESP at least in special edition form to commemorate his contributions before they go back to settling on just one option


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## narad (May 16, 2022)

Church2224 said:


> I am all over this. I have wanted a Hanneman model since I started playing. Always want the ESP version but too expensive and the quality of Korean guitars has gone up a lot lately
> 
> People are looking at this as a Cash Grab. This is just ONE guitar ESP is making for a well respected guitarist people like.
> 
> Need I remind people at one point Dean had twenty Or Thirty Dimebag models? That was more of a cash grab than this. And as far as Price goes everything is going up in price right now because of the economy, supply chain, ect. I work in commercial and residential landscaping and I have seen lawn mowers go up two thousand dollars a unit since last year. Everything is expensive and going up right now...


But if Dean is our ethical baseline then we're all saints anyway.


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## mmr007 (Sep 6, 2022)

While I am likely one of the few people who cares about this detail...it appears ESP has recently updated the image of the (hopefully) soon to be released 2023 Hanneman. The old ad pic had red star inlays with no white border (not to Jeff specs) which didn't make much sense and the red got lost in the ebony board (albeit the lightest ebony board I ever saw) whereas the new ad shows the proper white borders on the red star. The guitar looks significantly better. Only question now is will I need 3 or can I get by with 2.


The old ad below


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 6, 2022)

Looks sooooooo much better with the outline on the stars.


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## BaliGod (Sep 6, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You play a certain bridge for years, and you get used to it. Kahler's are apparently really, really easy on the hand, both due to the feel and the fact they're slinkier than a Floyd.



I like my Kahler on my Hanneman better than the Floyds on several other ESP Custom Shops and Originals. Both are cool though to play and this was my first Kahler since playing one back in the 80s.

The Kahler has much better tuning stability (pitch hold), easy to string and very easy to change tunings live in a pinch. I can go down or up a half step on all six strings and get it done with maybe 2 full passes. The Floyd Roses take like 6 or 7 passes. I Think ESP Custom Shop just really nailed the clutch tension right on my Kahler or they all may be this way. The Kahler bridge is super comfy, although the Floyd Roses don't bother me at all.

Floyds are tough to hold pitch if really get on the bar. Kahlers are always back on pitch no matter how hard I hit it. Floyds are also a pain to string and tune quickly, especially if stuck in middle of a set without a ready backup (my band uses 5 tunings live and I bring 5 guitars so I am shafted if one pops on a guitar that covers very many songs).

Love my Dagger H inlays . . . my last name starts with an H . . . and that people can get offended in the West over just about anything and everything is one of the many reasons I left that police state US and now live in culture full of sensible people that actually have some self esteem and self worth such that my dagger inlays don't phase them at all and The Man does need to dictate what inlays are in my guitars.


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## /wrists (Sep 6, 2022)

man the 600 artist series really got a price hike


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## possumkiller (Sep 6, 2022)

I don't get it. Was this guy a nazi or a commie? First a bunch of guitars covered in nazi symbols and now one with Soviet aircraft rondels for inlays? Did Jeff suddenly become a woke ass commie before he died, or is this his family trying to cash in on what's popular with the woke lefties these days?


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## STRHelvete (Sep 6, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> I don't get it. Was this guy a nazi or a commie? First a bunch of guitars covered in nazi symbols and now one with Soviet aircraft rondels for inlays? Did Jeff suddenly become a woke ass commie before he died, or is this his family trying to cash in on what's popular with the woke lefties these days?


Yeah...cause being a "woke commie" is just too much! We liked him better when he was a nazi...


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## BaliGod (Sep 6, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> I don't get it. Was this guy a nazi or a commie? First a bunch of guitars covered in nazi symbols and now one with Soviet aircraft rondels for inlays? Did Jeff suddenly become a woke ass commie before he died, or is this his family trying to cash in on what's popular with the woke lefties these days?



Lol, what is wrong with Russians?


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## Andromalia (Sep 6, 2022)

Ein Land, ein Reich, Heineken.


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## zw470 (Sep 6, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> Ein Land, ein Reich, Heineken.



Can't forget das Raiders.


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## mmr007 (Sep 6, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> I don't get it. Was this guy a nazi or a commie? First a bunch of guitars covered in nazi symbols and now one with Soviet aircraft rondels for inlays? Did Jeff suddenly become a woke ass commie before he died, or is this his family trying to cash in on what's popular with the woke lefties these days?





Jeff was not a “woke ass commie” before he died. He was an alcoholic before he died.


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## cardinal (Sep 6, 2022)

Slayer was/is an act. Those guys will use whatever symbolism seems controversial and scary. I wouldn't read much into it beyond that.


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## Adieu (Sep 6, 2022)

JD27 said:


> I don’t know, current events in 2022 might somehow make a red star more offensive.



It's not a Z or a yellow star.

It's a Heineken was the death of me star.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 6, 2022)

cardinal said:


> Slayer was/is an act. Those guys will use whatever symbolism seems controversial and scary. I wouldn't read much into it beyond that.



That's not entirely true. Hanneman, in his personal life, was a big collector of Nazi memorabilia. He even got others in on it, like Lemmy, having gifted him a piece. 

Which isn't to say that makes him a Nazi, which I genuinely doubt he was, but if I had to make a venn diagram of people who collect Nazi stuff for fun and folks who ascribe to the ideology...well....I doubt it would be two completely independent circles. 

So I don't begrudge folks for not making the distinction. 

But we've had this argument already. Also lolz at folks taking Possum's bait.


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## Sermo Lupi (Sep 6, 2022)

gunch said:


> Why* DID* Kerry and Jeff stan Kahlers so hard in their careers?





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You play a certain bridge for years, and you get used to it. Kahler's are apparently really, really easy on the hand, both due to the feel and the fact they're slinkier than a Floyd.





BaliGod said:


> I like my Kahler on my Hanneman better than the Floyds
> 
> The Kahler has much better tuning stability (pitch hold), easy to string and very easy to change tunings live in a pinch. I can go down or up a half step on all six strings and get it done with maybe 2 full passes. The Floyd Roses take like 6 or 7 passes. The Kahler bridge is super comfy, although the Floyd Roses don't bother me at all.
> 
> Floyds are tough to hold pitch if really get on the bar. Kahlers are always back on pitch no matter how hard I hit it. Floyds are also a pain to string and tune quickly, especially if stuck in middle of a set without a ready backup (my band uses 5 tunings live and I bring 5 guitars so I am shafted if one pops on a guitar that covers very many songs).



I have a Kahler on one of my guitars and didn't think it was an unusual choice at the time because I was familiar with many of their endorsees, plus a close friend had just bought a NOS Peavey Impact from the mid-80s that had one.

Theoretically, the Kahler is a better design than the Floyd Rose. However, the bridge didn't really thrive past the 1980s because the Floyd Rose was better supported and Kahlers failed at feeling like Floyds did.

Just from an mechanical perspective, though:

* The Kahler doesn't require routing the guitar due to using a rotating cam rather than a spring tension system.

* The bridge can be fitted to a wider variety of guitars for this reason, including a stud-mount version for Les Pauls, without needing to change the studs.

* Putting the string lock behind the nut is brilliant, since you retain all the advantages of a traditional nut.

* The roller saddles are more adjustable, result in less frequent string breakage, and are arguably more comfortable

* Kahler generally seemed to use better metals and machining, although the quality difference is more apparent due to there being so many licensed Floyds.

The feel is a bit different. Contrary to popular belief, the Kahler can still flutter and do many of the same tricks Floyds can. However, players who like Floyds will probably continue to prefer Floyds. The 80s tremolo arms race that led guys like Hanneman and King to endorse the bridge is long over. It isn't unusual that they would've liked it at the time, however. There were many benefits to champion.

Aesthetics are worth a mention as well. With Floyds being so ubiquitous, they just look 'right' to my eyes. Kahlers look a bit dated in the same way pickup rings often do. It isn't a big deal, though. I go back and forth on features like that all the time.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 6, 2022)

Kahler failed because they ran afoul of Floyd's patents on the Steeler and got sued out of the industry in the 90's. They made golf clubs after that, and didn't even start making bridges again until the early aughts. That big gap pretty much cemented their position in the industry.


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## Sermo Lupi (Sep 6, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kahler failed because they ran afoul of Floyd's patents on the Steeler and got sued out of the industry in the 90's. They made golf clubs after that, and didn't even start making bridges again until the early aughts. That big gap pretty much cemented their position in the industry.



It is true that Gary Kahler focused on golf clubs throughout the 90s and that patent disputes put a strain on the business. However, as the wikipedia page for the Kahler tremolo system points out, Kahler's own reasoning for switching was that the market for tremolo systems declined after the 1980s. 

Given how much golf equipment boomed in the 1990s by contrast, I don't doubt Kahler's rationale for changing focus. Guitar tremolos are small potatoes in the grand scheme of things and may have seemed to be a passing fad with all the changes in popular music throughout the 90s as well.

Even today, a cursory google provides estimates of the Golf Equipment market being valued at >$6.5B per annum while the guitar market is valued at >$2.5B. Then compare how essential golf clubs are to golf vs. tremolo systems to guitars and I think the evidence is stacked against the theory that Kahler was bullied into the golf industry by Floyd Rose.


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## mmr007 (Sep 6, 2022)

I dont think kahler was bullied into golf which was financially more sound but literally NO artist used them because of the locking nut issue and guitar manufacturers wouldnt put them on guitars if they wanted to be taken seriously. Even Grover Jackson once said the worst business decision of his life was putting kahlers on Jackson guitars. Just the reality. But they are great trems and from a technical standpoint better than floyds with a true locking nut but if you grew up on floyds the feel is very different and you are unlikely to switch


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## eaeolian (Sep 6, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> * Putting the string lock behind the nut is brilliant, since you retain all the advantages of a traditional nut.


...except for the fact that it's the most common place for the strings to actually bind and cause tuning issues. The Kahlers became much more stable from a tuning perspective when used with a Floyd-style locknut. That, of course, would have required patent licensing - which wasn't even a thing for Floyd competitors when Kahler started, as Kramer had exclusive rights by then - and was hard to retrofit, which was a huge part of Kahler's marketing.

Jackson's JT6 was a terrible bridge, but almost every tuning issue with it could be solved by having a Floyd-type locknut. It was eventually what killed Kahler, since their next move was just to try and replicate a Floyd more cheaply or with more features, and they failed spectacularly.


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## Sermo Lupi (Sep 6, 2022)

eaeolian said:


> ...except for the fact that it's the most common place for the strings to actually bind and cause tuning issues. The Kahlers became much more stable from a tuning perspective when used with a Floyd-style locknut. That, of course, would have required patent licensing - which wasn't even a thing for Floyd competitors when Kahler started, as Kramer had exclusive rights by then - and was hard to retrofit, which was a huge part of Kahler's marketing.
> 
> Jackson's JT6 was a terrible bridge, but almost every tuning issue with it could be solved by having a Floyd-type locknut. It was eventually what killed Kahler, since their next move was just to try and replicate a Floyd more cheaply or with more features, and they failed spectacularly.



I get what you're saying but the nut is a fundamental part of a guitar's design. How well its made can drastically affect playability. That's why it's a weak point on low quality import guitars while simultaneously being a feature that can bump a higher-end guitar from being good to great if extra care is taken. It isn't unlike fretwork in that way. By retaining the nut, you have more customization of string height, of string gauge, and of material preference such as bone, brass or plastic. A Floyd Rose locking nut is just a compromise we've become accustomed to making.

I've never played a Jackson Kahler. In my experience, however, locking the strings directly at the nut vs. less than half-an-inch behind it does not have an affect on tuning stability. Assuming the strings have been properly stretched and have settled in the nut before locking them in, there shouldn't be any movement.

I agree that there's definitely a marketing angle behind it. Whether that's playing up a design feature (e.g. easier retrofitting) or spin is a matter of opinion, I guess.


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## possumkiller (Sep 6, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> View attachment 113769
> 
> Jeff was not a “woke ass commie” before he died. He was an alcoholic before he died.


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## mmr007 (Sep 6, 2022)




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## tedtan (Sep 6, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> View attachment 113792


Knowing Jeff, it’s almost certainly the Heineken star.


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## CapinCripes (Sep 6, 2022)

tedtan said:


> Knowing Jeff, it’s almost certainly the Heineken star.


110%


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## Metal-Box (Sep 6, 2022)

It’s the trademark Heineken star. Personally, I like it better than the H daggers. It would have been cool with the totenkopf but that’s a bit edgy and I could see how people would be triggered by its symbology.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 6, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> It is true that Gary Kahler focused on golf clubs throughout the 90s and that patent disputes put a strain on the business. However, as the wikipedia page for the Kahler tremolo system points out, Kahler's own reasoning for switching was that the market for tremolo systems declined after the 1980s.
> 
> Given how much golf equipment boomed in the 1990s by contrast, I don't doubt Kahler's rationale for changing focus. Guitar tremolos are small potatoes in the grand scheme of things and may have seemed to be a passing fad with all the changes in popular music throughout the 90s as well.
> 
> Even today, a cursory google provides estimates of the Golf Equipment market being valued at >$6.5B per annum while the guitar market is valued at >$2.5B. Then compare how essential golf clubs are to golf vs. tremolo systems to guitars and I think the evidence is stacked against the theory that Kahler was bullied into the golf industry by Floyd Rose.



They literally had to close their manufacturing operations after the lawsuit. The golf clubs were always Gary's pet project, and became his full time one at his personal shop after he had to close APMW.

This was only in 93'/94', well before the shred guitar market bottomed out.

It definitely didn't help that Kahlers (trems) were harder to get as you could only buy direct, and like three or four times the price of Floyds, even wholesale.

The whole "folks just woke up and didn't want trems EXACTLY when we were forced to stop making them" was just Gary trying to save face, which is understandable.

It was hubris, of not wanting to take "the L" and just work with Floyd on licensing that eventually brought them down.

The Kahler Wikipedia article in just about all its glory, by the way:


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## mmr007 (Sep 6, 2022)

Kahler Schmahler....let's not sweat the small details of the trem system and then overlook the bigger picture....Slayer's musical dedication to educate us all on obscure soviet era aircraft




Cheers!!!!!


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## Sermo Lupi (Sep 6, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They literally had to close their manufacturing operations after the lawsuit. The golf clubs were always Gary's pet project, and became his full time one at his personal shop after he had to close APMW.
> 
> This was only in 93'/94', well before the shred guitar market bottomed out.
> 
> ...



Wikipedia is always a work in progress, I'm not sure what bone you're trying to pick with it. Kahler's website has the same information and it wasn't ambiguous where those claims were coming from. 

An additional detail from Kahler's website is that the patent lawsuits weren't worth the trouble contesting considering the sales volume at that time. Conceding the lawsuits and closing his guitar parts manufacturing operations is consistent with his claim that business was more viable in the golf and electroplating sectors and that it was where he wanted to spend his time. You've presented no new evidence to counter this. 

That leaves us with the credibility of Kahler's account which, yes, I agree is not impartial. Bias is not the same as a lie, however, which is essentially what you're alleging. 

The reason why I don't question Kahler's account is how much the shred guitar market was beginning to struggle by then, and how common it was for metal musicians who were making music in the post-grunge era to corroborate those problems. It isn't outlandish that a businessman whose company was heavily dependent on a niche aftermarket product would bail when the market started to wane, lawsuits or no. 

It's not like it was just golf clubs either. American Precision Metal Works had a focus as broad as its name. Better to be a small fish in a big pond than to be the big fish feuding with Floyd Rose over who invented "tremolo wankery" 

I'm being partly facetious, but really, is it so unbelievable that Kahler would steer a manufacturing business away from the one industry that desperately depended on men continuing to wear spandex late into the 1990s?


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## mmr007 (Sep 6, 2022)

I think the one element you are missing is the men wearing spandex never played the Kahler. They played floyds, whether it was the fulcrum Kahler or later cam Kahler, the inability to use a floyd style locking nut meant the shredders never played the Kahler period...regardless of prevailing musical trends the arose. Think of every major player you can think of....King, Hanneman, Tipton (and later Cantrell). That's it. None of those people compared influence wise to the greats. Kahler failed for the same reason the fender system 1 trems failed. No floyd locking nut protected by patents...no interest from serious trem enthusiasts.


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## Sermo Lupi (Sep 6, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> I think the one element you are missing is the men wearing spandex never played the Kahler. Kahler failed for the same reason the fender system 1 trems failed. No floyd locking nut protected by patents...no interest from serious trem enthusiasts.



Clearly you missed Slayer's early days  

To be clear, we're not debating Floyd Rose's dominance. There were clearly obstacles in Kahler's way to become a more serious competitor. 

What's in contention is whether the lawsuit sunk Kahler or whether his claims that he wanted to pursue other areas of manufacturing have any validity. Floyd Rose took the market by storm very quickly, certainly long before the lawsuit in the 90s. Kahler's stake was smaller and apparently not worth fighting over once the tremolo market shrank in the 1990s.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 6, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Wikipedia is always a work in progress, I'm not sure what bone you're trying to pick with it. Kahler's website has the same information and it wasn't ambiguous where those claims were coming from.
> 
> An additional detail from Kahler's website is that the patent lawsuits weren't worth the trouble contesting considering the sales volume at that time. Conceding the lawsuits and closing his guitar parts manufacturing operations is consistent with his claim that business was more viable in the golf and electroplating sectors and that it was where he wanted to spend his time. You've presented no new evidence to counter this.
> 
> ...



There's a lot of context missing, which isn't surprising since your one source is Kahler.

When Kramer went bust in 1990 Floyd availability exploded, Kahler was losing contracts fast, they just couldn't keep up. Floyd was smart, realized that there would always be folks looking to copy his designs/patents so made tons of licensing deals when his exclusivity with Kramer ended. Which flooded the market with all kinds of variants.

Then the lawsuits started in 92', hence the discontinuation of the Steeler that same year, and Kahler did try to fight back, filing multiple counter-suits. But the writing was on the wall.

In 93'/94' they lost the "big one" and wound up closing APMW, and all bridge production ceased a year or two later. I know NOS kits were still available until around 97' if you were willing to pay good money. Funny enough, it was easier to get parts for repairs after they closed.

While the changing musical tides had an impact on the guitar business, it wasn't as dramatic as some make it out to be. It was a slow burn and coincided with a lot of structural, big changes the industry was already seeing going back before anyone knew who Kurt Cobain was. Kramer had failed, also because hubris. Which lead to ESP and Jackson exploding to fill the void. Gibson and Fender started buying up brands in earnest, and darker, faster, uglier music like Thrash, Death Metal were entering their silver age. The music and image changed a lot more than the actual guitar specs.

Look at the catalogs from 95':



https://guitar-compare.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/1994-95_Jackson_Catalog.pdf





Ibanez Rules 1995 US Catalog





https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_files/esp/downloads/000/000/076/ESP-1995-Catalog.pdf?1392144566



The palettes are more subdued, as are the artist rosters, but it's trems-a-plenty.
The Kahler bridges stand up on their own, the commercial failure takes nothing away from that. The narrative that they just walked away is unnecessary.


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## possumkiller (Sep 7, 2022)

Don't let the beer fool you. That was his way to let fanbois explain away the communist symbology and not alienate his fan base. I see some people are finding the truth of JH being a commie liberal a bit hard to swallow. I know it's hard when it turns out you're hero is actually the opposite of the nazi he was pretending to be all along.


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## BaliGod (Sep 7, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> Don't let the beer fool you. That was his way to let fanbois explain away the communist symbology and not alienate his fan base. I see some people are finding the truth of JH being a commie liberal a bit hard to swallow. I know it's hard when it turns out you're hero is actually the opposite of the nazi he was pretending to be all along.
> View attachment 113814
> 
> View attachment 113815



Dude, are you from like ArkKansas or Mississippi or something.


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## Andromalia (Sep 7, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> Dude, are you from like ArkKansas or Mississippi or something.


He's from Trolheim, and is a successful fisher it seems.


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## BaliGod (Sep 7, 2022)

Andromalia said:


> He's from Trolheim, and is a successful fisher it seems.



I dunno. I just watched this Netflix movie called the "The Hunt" and he reminded me of the old redneck serial killer couple worried about commies and racism in the staged gas station that said they were from Arkansas. Watch that movie and you will see the uncanny resemblance.


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## Sermo Lupi (Sep 7, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's a lot of context missing, which isn't surprising since your one source is Kahler.
> 
> When Kramer went bust in 1990 Floyd availability exploded, Kahler was losing contracts fast, they just couldn't keep up. Floyd was smart, realized that there would always be folks looking to copy his designs/patents so made tons of licensing deals when his exclusivity with Kramer ended. Which flooded the market with all kinds of variants.
> 
> ...



I respect your difference of opinion but we're still at square one here. If you tried to update the Kahler wikipedia page with any of that, it's getting removed for 'original research'. In fact, most of your argument rests on an opinion that changing tides in music and the music instrument industry 'weren't as dramatic as some make [them] out to be', which is obviously difficult for you to quantify. 

Keeping with that theme, you've selected 3 guitar catalogs from brands that specialised in 80s-style superstrats. This is not an impartial cross-section of the guitar industry at that time, nor does it give us any idea of the volume of guitars being sold by those companies vs. the more traditional offerings of Gibson and Fender. Given the fact that Ibanez opens their catalogue with >5 pages of stoptails and Jazzmaster-inspired designs, that's quite telling. Many of the trems that follow are on signature models from artists signed in the 80s. 

We both know there were healthy underground metal scenes and lots of great metal guitar offerings in the 90s if you knew where to look...it's what makes this forum go 'round. It was still a waning market, however, and not one that Kahler stood to own a significant chunk of even had he won the lawsuit. 

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea Kahler just walked away, either. The company openly addresses the fact that the patent lawsuits were eating up time and money and were a contributing factor for them pursing greener pastures. It also wasn't all for naught, as Kahler had won an earlier lawsuit against Floyd Rose over the use of fine tuners on their bridges, owing to them existing as prior art (i.e. the Micro-Fret guitar). 

Kahler deciding to redirect his efforts into a different market that was newer, bigger, and less mired in patent feuding seems ordinary. You're free to hold an opinion that Kahler is just trying to save face by saying that, but I can't see how it amounts to anything more than that.


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## mmr007 (Sep 7, 2022)

Dear Lord,

I would like to thank you for this. I want to give thanks that a Hanneman thread can exist with back and forth discussion and spirited argument that does not mention totenkopfs, S's, and/or keys.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 7, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> View attachment 113827
> 
> 
> Dear Lord,
> ...


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## Zhysick (Sep 7, 2022)

Nothing to see here


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## mmr007 (Sep 7, 2022)

There is ALWAYS something to see.

Since we are approaching the 10 year anniversary of Hanneman's death and Jackson seems to be reintroducing the USA soloists anyway...please make a Hanneman version of the soloist. You, Jackson, made a limited edition Jack Butler model. I'm not saying Jeff is as good or as worthy as the fictional guitarist from hell, but he is hell's real guitarist and a one year limited edition would be nice.


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## MASS DEFECT (Sep 7, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> There is ALWAYS something to see.
> 
> Since we are approaching the 10 year anniversary of Hanneman's death and Jackson seems to be reintroducing the USA soloists anyway...please make a Hanneman version of the soloist. You, Jackson, made a limited edition Jack Butler model. I'm not saying Jeff is as good or as worthy as the fictional guitarist from hell, but he is hell's real guitarist and a one year limited edition would be nice.




Jackson would just end up releasing a Jeff Hanneman Signature Sticker Pack to put on everyone's black Soloist.


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## Andromalia (Sep 8, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Jackson would just end up releasing a Jeff Hanneman Signature Sticker Pack to put on everyone's black Soloist.


That'd be cool enough. The hardest part of the equation is still the _Los Angeles_ Raiders jersey/Tshirt


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## possumkiller (Sep 8, 2022)

Too bad these don't have a maple fretboard though or I would be all over one. Are the frets stainless or nickel


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## Marked Man (Sep 8, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> Too bad these don't have a maple fretboard though or I would be all over one. Are the frets stainless or nickel


 A maple fretboard for bashing out Slaytanic music??

Inconceivable......


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## mmr007 (Sep 8, 2022)

31 year old footage remastered to look like it was recorded yesterday featuring the Jackson Soloist that made me want a Jackson Soloist


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## Marked Man (Sep 9, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> 31 year old footage remastered to look like it was recorded yesterday featuring the Jackson Soloist that made me want a Jackson Soloist




Ahh, the original four and King still had hair and the nail armband. THIS is my Slayer!!



I must say I probably like Jeff's ESP Urban Camo most of all, but the Soloist is right there with it....


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