# Is Anyone a Muslim on this site?



## insanebassninja (Apr 5, 2014)

Am just asking I just converted yesterday. Looking for a few new friends that maybe in the town were I live. That may have the same hobbles. perhaps to get be to be a better Muslim and guitar/bassist.


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## Leuchty (Apr 5, 2014)

Not Muslim myself but very interested in the circumstances/reasons for your conversion.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 5, 2014)

CYBERSYN said:


> Not Muslim myself but very interested in the circumstances/reasons for your conversion.



let me get back with you about that... its a very long story. Plus I want to make sure the grammar is right also.


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## Veldar (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't understand why you'd limit yourself to certain guitarists.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 6, 2014)

Veldar said:


> I don't understand why you'd limit yourself to certain guitarists.


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## 7stg (Apr 6, 2014)

Veldar said:


> I don't understand why you'd limit yourself to certain guitarists.


Quran 
005.051 
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

003.028 
Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

7stg said:


> Quran
> 005.051
> O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
> 
> ...


That's a bit of a limited sample to perform a full analysis of- especially considering that most Muslims do not ostracize members of other religions.

If you look at the entire Sura, or even those verses in conjunction these, you may divine that these verses mean to deter Muslims from being close with those who reject the Qur'an and/or mock the religion- and encourage a degree of separation between the Muslims and practitioners of the other Abrahamic religions. 

In my pathetic mortal mind it occurs to me that in the same way a guitarist should hang out with better guitarists in order to improve, a Muslim should hang out with "better"(other) Muslims in order to increase his faith- and indeed it seems reasonable to assume the Qur'an is aware of that situation.

Muslims are not to mock other religions, and they are required to believe in the message of the books that came before.

And there are of course middle grounds between friend and enemy.

I just wanted to make this clear because the last thing anyone needs is someone coming along, reading that and going "SEE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO MAKE ENEMIES OF US ALL," and thus hating an entire faction of people due to a misunderstanding 


005.057

O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear you Allah, if you have Faith (indeed).

005.068

Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from your Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But you do not grieve over (these) people without Faith.

"".069

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve


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## Yo_Wattup (Apr 6, 2014)

Not sure if OP is trolling... It would be much more polite to say "Is anyone Islam?" than "Is anyone a muslim?"


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Not sure if OP is trolling... It would be much more polite to say "Is anyone Islam?" than "Is anyone a muslim?"



Islam is the proper noun referring to the religion. To ask if anyone is a follower of Islam using the word itsself you would have to say "Is anyone Islamic?"

As it is, I think "Is anyone a Muslim?" is the better wording though I would have phrased it "Is anybody on this site a Muslim?"- I think the point comes across fairly well either way.

"Is anyone Islam," would be wrong on a couple of levels xD

Also even if it were wrong, the OP has in his signature that he is working on grammar so I wouldn't persecute him much over it- we all have our weaknesses 

Mine is math ><


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## Eric Christian (Apr 6, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Am just asking I just converted yesterday. Looking for a few new friends that maybe in the town were I live. That may have the same hobbles. perhaps to get be to be a better Muslim and guitar/bassist.



Actually is called "reversion" not conversion as the thought process is that everyone is actually born a Muslim in the first place. Just saying...

That said, you should be very careful about what you actually consider being "Muslim" because your perception of what it means and the reality of the implementation of your actual integration into the Ummah (Flock) is something totally different.

The reason I say this is that the Deen of Islam is less about the actual writings of the Quran and more rooted in the Arab culture as it pertains to the accessory manuals (Hadith & Tafsir) detailing the life and sayings attributed to Prophet Muhammad. Interestingly enough, this goes directly against the directives clearly laid out in the Quran.

I will tell you that I've spent a great deal of time studying the Old & New Testament plus the Quran. Not just in English but taking the time to dig deep into the intrinsic meanings of the original Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew & Arabic words. You will find that around 70% of the Quran is nothing more than the Ultimate Creator repeating the narratives that come directly from parts of both the Old & New Testament. Strangely enough, the same narratives are repeated over and over in different areas of the Quran. Then the other 30% of the Quran is related specifically to Muhammad, the Arab people and his struggle to convert the idol worshippers.

So yeah, there are many misconceptions regarding what the Quran actually says and what the mainstream western culture perceives it to say. Just a few examples would be the Quran attributes zero divinity to Muhammad whatsoever, however is says that Jesus will return to Earth on Judgment Day just like the Bible does. In another section it repeats that Israel is the chosen land for the Jews. 

There are many other thousands of interesting passages in the Quran that so called "Christians", "Jews" and "Muslims" would prefer you didn't actually know, should the truth be known because they operate better in a world that is divided and at odd with on another instead of following the simple rules of the Ultimate Creator which is be a good person and do good deeds. Really quite simple.

P.S. Just so you know you might as well sell all your gear and forget about ever playing guitar or listening to any music whatsoever because according to the Hadith it is Haram (Bad/Satan's Work)


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## abandonist (Apr 6, 2014)

This thread is very strange.


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## Necris (Apr 6, 2014)

7stg said:


> Quran
> 005.051
> O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
> 
> ...




I think they were making a joke that now that he's worshipping Muhammed Sucimez.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 6, 2014)

Necris said:


> I think they were making a joke that now that he's worshipping Muhammed Sucimez.


 I'm dead. Rep to you!


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## Eric Christian (Apr 6, 2014)

7stg said:


> Quran
> 005.051
> O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
> 
> ...



Again, I operate on facts and logic. Truthfully my perception is the Quran has two separate narratives for the same topic.

Those Ayat above are the sugar coated vanilla mellow words. Ayat 47:4 has clear instructions involve "smiting" the necks.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran)

8:12-14 commands smiting necks, chopping off fingertips and burning in fire as well.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran


On the other hand 2:62 & 5:68-69 tells a different story.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran


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## Kemper_temper (Apr 6, 2014)

sufi


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> The reason I say this is that the Deen of Islam is less about the actual writings of the Quran and more rooted in the Arab culture as it pertains to the accessory manuals (Hadith & Tafsir) detailing the life and sayings attributed to Prophet Muhammad. Interestingly enough, this goes directly against the directives clearly laid out in the Quran.



To be a Muslim is to submit to the will of god and believe and obey his word in the Qur'an.

But Eric brings up an important point (though he phrases differently from how I would phrase it), which is that many Muslims do confuse Arab culture and tradition with Islam; indeed many non-Muslims have the same confusion.

Putting aside perception and misconception, the absolute and only word that the Muslim is to follow is that which is in the Qur'an. That being said, the Qur'an does say that Muslims must believe in The Prophet and follow his examples. The way that Muslims do this is to read the Hadith (things that people said The Prophet did) and model their actions to follow him as best they can. But it is important to note that the Hadith are not absolute, nor are they 100% reliable. Some sources are more reliable than others, and when one finds a Hadith which is at odds with the Qur'an, the Qur'an should be deferred to as the absolute authority, not the Hadith. Critical thinking IS required to properly "execute" Islam.

Indeed, the Qur'an compels the Muslim to think critically on a number of occasions, which is obviously good advice considering the discussion we have going on here !
The Critical Thinking Muslim | Margari Aziza
The above page provides what I feel is a good summary of the role of critical thinking in the Qur'an and in Islam (for anyone interested).

Summarily, while the perception of Muslims and indeed the practices of many Muslims more closely resemble Arabic culture and Hadith, the "perfect state," of Islam (or Islamic "Deen") is more likely a less-commonly practiced stricter adherence to the Qur'an.


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## Cabinet (Apr 6, 2014)

Being Muslim in Europe is a big thing. Unfortunately for me, I enjoy my bacon too much. And will use it as a weapon against all those who oppose me.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> Again, I operate on facts and logic. Truthfully my perception is the Quran has two separate narratives for the same topic.
> 
> Those Ayat above are the sugar coated vanilla mellow words. Ayat 47:4 has clear instructions involve "smiting" the necks.
> 
> ...



This Sura refers specifically to the war that was being fought at the time of it's revelation.

I believe the Wikipedia article on this topic presents my perspective as well as I could hope to do myself:



> Surat Muhammad (Arabic: &#1587;&#1608;&#1585;&#1577; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; Mu&#7717;ammad) is the 47th sura of the Qur'an with 38 ayat. The title is derived from the direct mentioning of the Prophet Muhammad in 47:2. It also has the name of Al-Qital, which translates to fighting due to the context of the sura. [1] This sura pertains to a specific conflict that arose from people prohibiting the acceptance and spread of Islam. It refers to the battle of Badr, where an army was being gathered to attack Medina. The battle of Badr took place during Ramadan, in year 2 of the Islamic calendar.[2]
> 
> This makes the specificity of the sura not applicable to modern times, due to this specific historical context. The surah orders believers to obey Muhammad and not to reject any part of what he has revealed, as well as to "smite" and "subdue" the "unbelievers" in battle.[Quran 47:4] Moreover, it reiterates the vanity of the attempt of those who oppose God and his prophet, Muhammad.



It even uses the term "the war" verse 4 of Surah 47, which reads as follows,



> So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.



In context, it makes sense that such violence would be mentioned- such is the way of war. Out of context, it would paint an image of Muslims being violent barbarians- which is what many uninformed people think of Muslims after the 9/11 attacks.

I do think it is very important to take everything in a religious text in context and not to allow misconception to take place; such has been the cause of many deaths in human history.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Cabinet said:


> Being Muslim in Europe is a big thing. Unfortunately for me, I enjoy my bacon too much. And will use it as a weapon against all those who oppose me.



If only the US had started dropping bacon strips on Iraq ages ago the war would have been over before it started!


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 6, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> Again, I operate on facts and logic.


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## rectifryer (Apr 6, 2014)

It is absolutely silly how Islam is portrayed as a religion of war as if any Abrahamic religion isn't just as much so.

That being said, I side with Eric's statements.


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## OmegaSlayer (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't need a religion to know what's detrimental to good and respectful cohexistance to other lifeforms of the planet.

The religious search of binds and rules already amazes me.
The search for balls and chains amazes me even more.
It's like running around searching for shackles because there's a promise that if you live limiting yourself you'll have a better life later.


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## Necris (Apr 6, 2014)

Svava said:


> That's a bit of a limited sample to perform a full analysis of- especially considering that most Muslims do not ostracize members of other religions.
> 
> If you look at the entire Sura, or even those verses in conjunction these, you may divine that these verses mean to deter Muslims from being close with those who reject the Qur'an and/or mock the religion- and encourage a degree of separation between the Muslims and practitioners of the other Abrahamic religions.






Qur'an 9:5 said:


> And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.





Qur'an 9:29-30 said:


> 9:29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
> 
> 9:30: The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?





9:5 regards Arab pagans; 9:30 puts Jews and Christians at the same level as the pagans can be interpreted as defining Jews and Christians as being blasphemers.

Also; the jizyah is a tax that all non-muslim males must pay; in person by hand; to quote wikipedia 


wikipedia said:


> in order to confirm that he lowers himself to being a subjected one, accepts humiliation of having been conquered, willingly pays in gratitude for his life being spared in lieu of the taxes.


The punishment for non-payment being arrest and enslavement of the family of the person who didn't pay; and the person themselves.
This tax still exists in some Muslim countries, and those who do not pay are sometimes killed.

I'd say it's hard to argue that mere separation of the religions is the end goal.


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## Varcolac (Apr 6, 2014)

Svava said:


> "Is anyone Islam," would be wrong on a couple of levels xD









And so can you!


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## Nyx Erebos (Apr 6, 2014)

Svava said:


> 005.057
> 
> O you who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear you Allah, if you have Faith (indeed).



So you can't be my friend because a book told you so ?


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## TheHandOfStone (Apr 6, 2014)

Man, I knew that I didn't know much about Islam, but I didn't know how much not much I didn't know! 

...


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## Mprinsje (Apr 6, 2014)

Nyx Erebos said:


> So you can't be my friend because a book told you so ?



welcome to religion


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## asfeir (Apr 6, 2014)

Very strange thread indeed.. As a Christian who is going to live in the UAE soon, last thing on my mind is to try to find some Christian guys there to become a better Christian. actually if you want to be a better Muslim go make some non Muslim friends too and you'll learn that tolerance and being close to people who do not share your beliefs are the true essence of religion.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Necris said:


> 9:5 regards Arab pagans; 9:30 puts Jews and Christians at the same level as the pagans can be interpreted as defining Jews and Christians as being blasphemers.
> 
> Also; the jizyah is a tax that all non-muslim males must pay; in person by hand; to quote wikipedia
> 
> ...



Surah 9, At-Taubah, was revealed at the time of the Battle of Tabuk. (Also see here)

The first 6 verses read as follows:



> Yusuf Ali
> A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
> 
> Yusuf Ali
> ...



(Source - and here I reference the Yusuf Ali translation)

As you can see, these verses are referring to the treatment of those who the Muslims had just conquered, and indeed was instructing that they be allowed time to contemplate the message that The Prophet had brought and to cease fighting the Muslims. Indeed, it did not even say to kill those who decided against converting- verse 6 instructs "If one amongst the Pagans ask you for asylum, grant it to him."

As for verse 30, it reads as follows (let's put verse 29 here as well):





> Yusuf Ali
> Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
> 
> Yusuf Ali
> The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!



The Jizya was indeed a tax to be paid by the non-Muslim peoples living in Muslim territory. This does, at a glance, seem unfair, but if you look at it in context it may seem less so.

Firstly, it is an obvious sort of encouragement to convert to Islam- every salesman wants to encourage people to buy the product, no? But even then, if you take into account that the Muslim people had to pay Zakat, it seems far more logical.



> The Qur'an talks about the zakat in more than 30 different verses, mainly in the Medinan suras. In the quranic view, zakat is a way to redistribute the wealth, thus defining a charity-based economy with a particular interest in the poor and the dispossessed Muslims.[3] Zakat is considered more than taxation. One must give zakat for the sake of one's salvation: while those who give zakat can expect reward from God in the afterlife, neglecting to give zakat can result in damnation. The giving of the zakat is considered a means of purifying one's wealth and soul.[3] Non-Muslims are not required to pay zakat, but give a tax by a different name called Jizyah tax.


 (Source)

If you take it in that context, the Jizyah can be seen as a balancing factor ensuring that the non-Muslim and the Muslims both contributed to that "charity-based economy."

As for whether this verse puts Jews and Christians on the level of the Pagans, I believe it's important to keep in mind that there is (from the Muslim perspective) a distinction between Jews and Christians who believe that God has a son, and those who do not. Muslims believe that Jesus did not claim to be the son of god and indeed that god has no son (Here I reference Surat Al-'Ikhlas).

Combining that knowledge with the juxtaposition of 29 and 30, I do not think that it's unreasonable to assume that the verses which "...put(s) Jews and Christians at the same level as the pagans," were referring to those who held that (in the Muslim's perspective) distorted view of the previous Abrahamic religions.


As usual I say that all of these things in context seem less malicious than they do when taken out of context. Pretty much everything in life has good and bad, it is we who choose on which to linger our attention.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

asfeir said:


> Very strange thread indeed.. As a Christian who is going to live in the UAE soon, last thing on my mind is to try to find some Christian guys there to become a better Christian. actually if you want to be a better Muslim go make some non Muslim friends too and you'll learn that tolerance and being close to people who do not share your beliefs are the true essence of religion.



I don't really know any Muslim who ostracizes people of other religions from his/her social circle. I think in practice this tends to be a more subtle distancing, meaning that perhaps a Muslim's Muslim friends are held in more confidence and closeness than his non-Muslim ones. I say this out of observation and experience, not just speculation.

Also I've lived in the UAE and other parts of that region before, I really don't think you have anything to worry about socially. It's a fun place. The UAE in particular is fairly westernized in culture, though the strict internet regulation of "inappropriate" content might provide a bit of a  moment for you- it did for me xD.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Nyx Erebos said:


> So you can't be my friend because a book told you so ?



I will gladly be your friend.

Unless you use active pickups in which case...

I will be your friend provided I don't have to listen to your tone 


PASSIVEPICKUPMASTERRACE ><!!!!!!


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## HoneyNut (Apr 6, 2014)

I converted the other way! haha. 

I am 'reasonably' an atheist and would never mind discussing this with you, as long as you acknowledge that atheism does not mean a lack of morals. 

Anyways,

Please do not narrow your options down. We are all your friends, no matter where we are from. We all want to play music. And we all want to play/write music with you if opportunity comes. 

Please do not abandon us (the rest of your friends) because of your choice in religion. 

I respect your choice in following a spiritual guideline, but that doesn't mean you will neglect the others.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 6, 2014)

Svava said:


> I will be your friend provided I don't have to listen to your tone
> 
> 
> PASSIVEPICKUPMASTERRACE ><!!!!!!



You couldn't tell the difference between an 81 and a Duncan JB.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Jeesan said:


> I converted the other way! haha.
> 
> I am 'reasonably' an atheist and would never mind discussing this with you, as long as you acknowledge that atheism does not mean a lack of morals.
> 
> ...



I chose music as a profession just for this- I think music has historically been a source of peace and unity more-so than most anything else that I have encountered.

This is a philosophy that we all need to adopt 

Incidentally, one of my best friends and the guy who introduced me to rock n' roll / guitar is an Atheist.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You couldn't tell the difference between an 81 and a Duncan JB.



THEY BLOODY SOUND SIMILAR ><!! Don't like duncans either...

Poo to you...

passivepickupmasterrace...


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## HoneyNut (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks Svava, I've been a muslim since birth. I just converted recently. I must say, that it's easier for me to admit it here, than to most of the people I know in real life, because they would probably take it the wrong way. 

I'd go to church with my friend and i'd go to the mosque with my other friend still. It's all for a good cause anyways.

---

Music transcends a lot. It's funny how an acquired taste like heavy metal can touch people's heart all over the world. (not that i'm strictly a metal guy). Anyone who listens to metal is very passionate about it, wherever they are from. it's energetic!


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## Leuchty (Apr 6, 2014)

I converted to Ibanism a few months ago... I used to be an ESPerian...

...just sayin...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 6, 2014)

CYBERSYN said:


> I converted to Ibanism a few months ago... I used to be an ESPerian...
> 
> ...just sayin...



Infidel.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 6, 2014)

As an atheist I still have a ridiculous number of both Jewish and Muslim friends--surprisingly more than Christian friend although not purposely. Christians typically tend to keep away from *me* actually for similar reasons to what has been mentioned in the OP. Yet somehow my Jewish and Muslim friends get along great. 

Almost sounds like OP is *trying* to find a way to exclude himself. There's a lot of really good info in this thread though.


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## Gothic Headhunter (Apr 6, 2014)

Necris said:


> I think they were making a joke that now that he's worshipping Muhammed Sucimez.



Now there's a religion I could get behind


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 6, 2014)

Svava said:


> THEY BLOODY SOUND SIMILAR ><!! Don't like duncans either...


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 6, 2014)

Gothic Headhunter said:


> Now there's a religion I could get behind



Shredliness is next to godliness. Just ask Trooch.


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## setsuna7 (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm Muslim... and this site is the best.. everyone will respect whatever your belief is. This is the only sane forum that I will forever stuck in(well,aside from kawasakininja300.com). There will be an asshole or two from time to time, but our almighty MODs will always take care of them almost instantly!!


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## tacotiklah (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm all for people believing in whatever they want, just so long as it doesn't involve attacking others or putting them down. 

Beyond that, believe in a giant potato creating the universe if you're so inclined.


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## Xaios (Apr 6, 2014)

ghstofperdition said:


> Beyond that, believe in a giant potato creating the universe if you're so inclined.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Apr 6, 2014)




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## OmegaSlayer (Apr 6, 2014)

If you want to know my point insanebass, I converted from Christianity to...well..."Rejectionism"
I, yes I, presumptuous enough, can't condone any kind of God that allows 4 years old kids to have cancer.

I raised as a Catholic and went to Church often. very often, and was in those groups of guys that meet for activities, prayers and stuff.
Yeah, it was a good way to meet girls, but anyway I went, I believed in a good measure, not in the books, but in the overall teachings, which are fair rules of cohexistence.
One priest, the closest I was to, said that "texts" are filled with translations errors and things blown up of proportions.
This guy was moved at the age of 35 to teach Theology at the Saint Johan University of Rome where priests learns theology. 
I listened to Black Metal anyway LOL, because, no matter what do you believe in, the relation with others should be based on respect, it's not a fanboy war.
There's no God with SuperSayan level 2 or a God that can sweep pick better.

Anyway, back to the point.
A guy in one of the groups I attended was blind from birth, he was 16 when I met him.
An excellent piano player, and a truly believer in God, he was always thanking God, not as a meme, he was truly thankful.
His father died when he was 3 years old, just days before the mother of my friend had the second son.
Now, if some of you had experience with people blind from birth, you know that unfortunately these people lacks some awareness to grow mature as quick as people with all senses do, if you know what I mean.
This guy was pure, really good at heart.
All the family was made of strong believers, people who truly, deeply loved God.
Anyway, long story short, when the guy was around 18 years old his mother was diagnosed pancreas cancer and died in less than 2 months, leaving this guy and his 15-16 year old brother ALONE.
My reaction then and now is that a Righteous God (very different from Good God) shouldn't allow these things.
F**k the tests in life, there can never be a reason for any kind of test to anyone, not to mention the ones who praises and love you.
So I refuse the idea of a God, since I wouldn't like how he acts at all.
My mind feels better at ease with the idea that there is nothing rather than the idea of a chess player.

That said, is not up to me to judge others actions or beliefs, you can be my friend as an atheist, jew, christian, muslim or pokemon player.
Don't look into books to tell you what to believe or not because EVERY story has at least 3 version: MINE, YOURS AND WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

Be open, be respectful.
If you find relief in an entity close to you, that's good, but keep in mind that whatever you do, you shouldn't do it for what happens beyond your ultimately demise, buit for your today and tomorrow, and for the today and tomorrow of those close to you that are affected by your actions.
Those people are closer to you daily than your entity, and they are real without shadows of doubt.

I'll end up with these words...not from prophet, from a musician that might be considered extreme: "Death is certain, life is not"
Death is the easiest step in life, something everyone achieves in a shorter/longer amount of time, in a painful/painless way. 
So live life, smile, cry and don't act to meet expectations.
Neither human nor divine expectations.

Good luck with your choice bud.


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## Abaddon9112 (Apr 6, 2014)

asfeir said:


> Very strange thread indeed.. As a Christian who is going to live in the UAE soon, last thing on my mind is to try to find some Christian guys there to become a better Christian. actually if you want to be a better Muslim go make some non Muslim friends too and you'll learn that tolerance and being close to people who do not share your beliefs are the true essence of religion.



I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that OP _exclusively_ wants to meet other Muslim musicians. All he said was this:



insanebassninja said:


> Am just asking I just converted yesterday. Looking for a few new friends that maybe in the town were I live. That may have the same hobbles. perhaps to get be to be a better Muslim and guitar/bassist.



A lot of people in this thread are acting as though OP said something to the effect of "Yeah, I want to meet other Muslim musicians, because all other musicians SUCK". Uh...No. Is there anything about the quote above that would indicate any hostility toward those of other religious/non-religious persuasions? I don't think so. If you want to get better at whatever it is you do, whether its music, school, your job, or your faith, you gotta hang with people who are more knowledgeable about the subject. And most people, I'd wager most of you, have and seek out friends who share similar interests and lifestyles. So there's nothing about what OP said that would warrant the sort of hostility that I think has been shown toward him and to his religious conversion.


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## HoneyNut (Apr 6, 2014)

Abaddon9112, 

There isn't anything the OP said as such. The OP's intention is, obviously, simply a social one. 

I think our responses were as such is because we do not want the OP to limit himself(or herself) musically. That's all. And I know the OP will find others here with similar interests/beliefs. Sevenstring.org is a quite a diverse site, as you can see from this thread.

OmegaSlayer,

Man, that story about your blind friend is really heartbreaking. I wish that he continues playing the music he loves and wish that he gets recognition for it. That's just really pathetic. I wish the doctors could have done more. Let's wish him a strong heart to keep his spirits up.

It reminds me that there's so much we take for granted. 

To keep it light, I hope there is an afterlife so that we can all finally meet there and play heavy metal.


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## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

This belongs here.






NEW from the creators of such popular products as IGNORANCE, BIGOTRY, FOOLHARDINESS and BEING A TOOL, we bring you the latest and greatest -







Part of our "Selective Awareness" package!

With this you can simply choose what things you want to hear, see, or read and what you'd prefer to ignore so that you can continue going about life in the way that you're comfortable going about it!!!!

Practice hatred, arrogance, racism, and all sorts of xenophobic behavior while still being convinced that you're an intelligent person because you were never made aware that your stances on things are factually completely unfounded and invalid!

Wanna hate Christians and sound justified? Just buy our new product "Selective Reading" and only read the verses about rape and incest!! You'll never have to see the good in things ever again!

"Selective Awareness"- It takes the "ass" right out of "damaging assumptions"!


Selective Awareness may cause such side effects as war, bullying, racism, banishment from your community, and sudden death by way of merciful deity attempting to save humanity from your BS. These products may also cause your mother to die of shame, your father to not be able to look at himself in a mirror and your grandmother to beat the hell out of you simply due to frustration. 

"Selective Awareness" is a registered trademark of Amway.


----------



## abandonist (Apr 6, 2014)

Never mind.


----------



## HoneyNut (Apr 6, 2014)

Svava, your last post makes me feel as if I should quit the guitar and pick up the tabla!


----------



## Svava (Apr 6, 2014)

Jeesan said:


> Svava, your last post makes me feel as if I should quit the guitar and pick up the tabla!



Real men play the oud!


----------



## Eric Christian (Apr 7, 2014)

Btw, I'm neutral on this article but it does make some valid points. It also leaves out some important concepts and narratives as well but it's still a good read.

Islam is Not for Non-Arabs: Al-Quran


----------



## Svava (Apr 7, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> Btw, I'm neutral on this article but it does make some valid points. It also leaves out some important concepts and narratives as well but it's still a good read.
> 
> Islam is Not for Non-Arabs: Al-Quran



The word "nation" in those sections is being used to refer to the population of humanity during the period of time that that messenger was sent.

Meaning that The Prophet was sent to the people at that time and to be the messenger of all of the people after that.

As you say, it (the article) leaves out some important concepts and narratives as well.

Also, to my eyes, the diction and tone of the piece suggests a bit of a bias.... and I am also immediately less likely to give credence to articles regarding religious texts which provide small samples to present their perspectives without explaining the context of the verse. ... not to mention that the page is littered with links to openly anti-Muslim links 



> &#8226; Bill Maher: 'Islam is the worst'



^ From the videos section on the right side of that page. Clearly not the unbiased discussion of a learned man going on here...



I am not going to go into a 1 for 1 explanation of the verses they are discussing there, I think anyone who has made it this far in the thread and is interested in learning more needs to pick up a Qur'an and read it. I would also recommend that those interested in the unadulterated truth interpret the Qur'an with your eyes and perhaps the aid of a few dictionaries if you do not speak Arabic. If you read a Muslim scholar's interpretations you'll likely convince yourself that they're biased (whether or not they are). If you read from something like the site posted above I give you my personal guarantee that they'll be biased 99% of the time.

If everyone made decisions about ideologies and people based on conjecture, no matter how reliable, everyone would hate each other.

...

Which is probably why everyone hates each other -,-


For every instance someone points into that book and says there is something horrible or irrational or whatever else, another person might look in and find beauty and wisdom.

In order for peace and understanding to come about, someone actually has to sit down with a pen and paper, and do the reading/writing/critical thinking involved in propagating that peace. It is therefore unfortunate that there is little to no actual work involved in spreading hatred, which is why more of the latter is done than the former.


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## flexkill (Apr 7, 2014)




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## insanebassninja (Apr 7, 2014)

Svava said:


> The word "nation" in those sections is being used to refer to the population of humanity during the period of time that that messenger was sent.
> 
> Meaning that The Prophet was sent to the people at that time and to be the messenger of all of the people after that.
> 
> ...



Amen


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## Kaickul (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm an atheist, can you be my friend?


----------



## insanebassninja (Apr 8, 2014)

Nardong Putik said:


> I'm an atheist, can you be my friend?



Yea I have no Problem with me as long as you don't try to say. May way of thinking is wrong. Most of my Friends I have Are atheist. How ever they Respiend my Believes those. Plus its not like am going to kill you over it. I will not push my blives on you unless you do it to me first. Is that fair eouch.


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## Svava (Apr 8, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Yea its not like going to kill you or anything. Or try to convent you or anything unless you want to.



I actually might try to kill you though- but that's just because I'm insane it has nothing to do with religious affiliation


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## Necris (Apr 8, 2014)

I'd like to say that whoever Neg repped the OP for his original post in this thread is probably an asshole.


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## Svava (Apr 8, 2014)

Necris said:


> I'd like to say that whoever Neg repped the OP for his original post in this thread is probably an asshole.



I concur.

A bag of the foulest and most heinous douche.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 8, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> Btw, I'm neutral on this article but it does make some valid points. It also leaves out some important concepts and narratives as well but it's still a good read.
> 
> Islam is Not for Non-Arabs: Al-Quran


Do you have a you tube channel I think I found it? I also said your right about Music being bad but, I see only mainstream is bad. Also so metal bands as well are also.


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## abandonist (Apr 8, 2014)

Wat


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## Eric Christian (Apr 8, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Do you have a you tube channel I think I found it? I also said your right about Music being bad but, I see only mainstream is bad. Also so metal bands as well are also.



The Quran says nothing about forbidding music. Furthermore, the Quran says that anything that isn't forbidden is ok. The Hadith on the other hand especially the "Authentic" Bukhari explicitly forbids any kind of music, singing or playing any instruments whatsoever. That said, if you plan to follow the Sunni or Shia sects then you probably should consider stopping listening & playing music because it's Haram.


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## abandonist (Apr 8, 2014)

I not accusing, but this sounds like a kid that's lost his way.


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## Watty (Apr 9, 2014)

Svava said:


> Wanna hate Christians and sound justified? Just buy our new product "Selective Reading" and only read the verses about rape and incest!! You'll never have to see the good in things ever again!



I don't have to be aware of what the bible says (or doesn't, in most every case) regarding a given topic to know that a certain position with regards to the issue in question is wrong.

For example:

I know it is wrong to discriminate against those of a different sexual orientation. 
I know that it is predominately those people who identify as religious who seem to do the bulk of said discriminating.
I know that this is a position worthy of derision regardless of the religious implications.

Methinks you believe your statement to be a catchall for equating [my] intolerance for biblical literalism (in cultural contexts) with religious bigotry....which is not the case.



Eric Christian said:


> The Quran says .....



Eric, all else aside, it literally baffles me that you seem to be very well versed in philosophical concepts related to religion (i.e. an important facet of a well rounded intellect) while holding the views that you've expressed in other areas of discourse, especially those related to science. Perhaps your fascination with the former would be best served by more throughly investigating the latter...?


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## TRENCHLORD (Apr 9, 2014)

Man, I click on this thread one time (twice now) and now there's a king's harem of lovely single muslim goodies tempting me "in" at the top of the forum pages.  

Please Allah, I beg for the strength to resist!!!


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## Svava (Apr 9, 2014)

Watty said:


> I don't have to be aware of what the bible says (or doesn't, in most every case) regarding a given topic to know that a certain position with regards to the issue in question is wrong.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



People who discriminate are ignorant. For example, just because god says something is wrong, that does not give you the license to go out and prosecute that thing. If one chooses to do that it is because he made that decision. It is easier to blindly hate then to become educated and to accept.

You want to know why terrorism exists? Why people will blow themselves up and kill dozens of people? 

It is because those people chose to accept the first thing they heard, and to be a herd animal rather than to think critically, analyze the facts, and form rational courses of action. 

They decided that they didn't have to read anything or analyze everything, they just "knew" that certain things were wrong and decided to do anything to eradicate them.

Same as the Klan. Same as homophobic people.

They decided that it's easier to hate than to understand. They decided "I know that this is wrong, so I do not have to try to understand it."

As soon as you choose not to enlighten yourself and become caught up in your own correctness, you become an antagonist to peace and understanding.




> I don't have to be aware of what the bible says (or doesn't, in most every case) regarding a given topic to know that a certain position with regards to the issue in question is wrong.



No you don't, but you do need to be aware of what it says in order to have any chance of correcting the people who have decided to misinterpret it, the Qur'an, or anything else in order to pursue violence and bigotry. 

You can fight fire with fire all day- it will propagate its self. The only way to put it out is to take the effort to go out and get some water.


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## Eric Christian (Apr 9, 2014)

Watty said:


> Eric, all else aside, it literally baffles me that you seem to be very well versed in philosophical concepts related to religion (i.e. an important facet of a well rounded intellect) while holding the views that you've expressed in other areas of discourse, especially those related to science. Perhaps your fascination with the former would be best served by more throughly investigating the latter...?



Interesting, because it literally baffles me that instead of voicing some original opinion about the subject that the OP brought up as usual you instead insert some negative comment to turn it into yet another thread about yourself and how superior your knowledge of everything is. Perhaps your fascination with interjecting your sardonic deprecation into every thread I post in would be better served by tempering your huge bloated ego...?


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## Svava (Apr 9, 2014)

abandonist said:


> I not accusing, but this sounds like a kid that's lost his way.



Or someone who is making a legitimate attempt to better himself...?

Glass half empty... glass half full...


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## tacotiklah (Apr 9, 2014)

Ah, religion threads. Nothing makes this place look like the time my aunts and uncles got into a coffin side brawl at my grandmother's wake quite like people trying to tell other people on the internet that they hold all the answers to something that only the dead know, and as such, have no real way of conveying those answers to the living.

Still waiting for the day that humanity realizes the stark contrast between faith and fact...


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## insanebassninja (Apr 9, 2014)

What made me Revert back to Islam


.What made me revert back to Islam. I grew up as ever American has as a christian but in my first grade class I meet a girl who was Muslim. We became really close friends, even now we are close friends, I completely surprised her when I did it. Now its go back to grad school now.
First grade, Her mom was needing help watcher over her kids. So my Mom said I'll be happy to help So we took them back home with us. Watched the Power Rangers did all the 90s shows back then. Played with my 8 box turtles ended up losing one... lol. Played basket ball in on the driveway. At the time I didn't really know too much about Islam. I was just thinking a this girl is cool. Then she got a brain tumber so we pray for her and stuff and I think she's over that. I never really brought it up again even now.
Six grade, I think they invited us to party down that the local mosque. I forgot the reason. When we were leaving I saw people praying. I wanted to pray with them. Really I think was the first seed planted. Then in 7th grade 9/11 happen which I all really knew Muslims are not like the ones on TV. I was like no. Am still fine with them.
Let's fast track to my 12th which was my darkest time. It started with a another girl that I no longer even talk to now. I ticked her off by my Anarchism mind set by say .... the US Constitution base on Larken Rose writing. Hehe back on track now. I was fighting for this girl over a big fat ICP shit for brains guy. I won, the she met my other friend. She broke up with me in my Sadness I started talking to a guy on some gaming IM. He said he was a Satanist... Gave me a website to read. I converted, and I thought to get her back into my life as my girl once again. Instead I went through hell because I became one myself. That was 6 months of hell, pain, hate, wanting to do evil things, worshiped satan. Which I don't think I ever did, but still 6 months of hell like that.
Then I started questioning it. Then I became a Buddhist because I thought I can get by with it. The thing that go me was Life is suffering this sound Emo to me did this for the rest of the year and helped out that same girl. The next year after that I was hanging out with this other guy a porn addiction showed me some pretty must up shit. Like a guy screwing a cake... yea I know. Then I was a Buddhist then I relapse back to satanism again.
The guy just got his drivers license we were going back to get his car from his dad I said... Please drop me off and I'll follow you there, then we decided to take one care and I'll drive back his mom car. It was a semi wet day I was freaking out because he wasn't a good driver as he was. We hit a pothole just about flipped the SUV and head first into a power pole. He broke the power pole. As we were getting out of the SUV. When I heard it falling I thought just to run. After that I said Ok, God you win...we both came out of that with just bruises and I was sore for a full month after that.
After the car wreck. I stared reading the bible again, but it didn't make any sense to me. Then I remembered Islam as my last chose to check out. Never looked back, I readied the Cow and it made perfect since to me. When In my first year of trying to be Muslim. I bought a Quran and stared reading and using it in my Ninja training. Then odd things started to happen at night time my Bed would random shaking like something was grabbing my mattress shaking it Violently. Then it started shaking my bed every night for a longest time.
This only made prayer to God in the christian way at the time. It worked for the night, but it happens every night I was freaked out. Then I started to relapse again just this year and I was porn addition my self that point looking at more what you would say normal things? Then that is sister now, came back around just this pass week I fully converted which I should, done 3 years ago. I add I had some help online from Middle Eastern guy form the Middle East and Japanese Muslim but, I lost contact with them.


That is the story of my Revert Hope you enjoy.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 9, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> The Quran says nothing about forbidding music. Furthermore, the Quran says that anything that isn't forbidden is ok. The Hadith on the other hand especially the "Authentic" Bukhari explicitly forbids any kind of music, singing or playing any instruments whatsoever. That said, if you plan to follow the Sunni or Shia sects then you probably should consider stopping listening & playing music because it's Haram.



O OK then... didn't people after master Muhammad. say stuff that he didn't say? Am just a having a hard time with getting pass of the guitar and music part of it all. Plus, I enjoy hearing the Qur'an in meditating other wise Metal when am not meditating


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 9, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Life stuff


Sounds to me like your just trying to find yourself, and there's no problem with that, just pursue happiness with diligence.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Apr 9, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> _Ninja training._ _ I was porn addition._ _ Then that is sister now_.


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## guitarfreak1387 (Apr 9, 2014)

da fvck did i just read?


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 9, 2014)

guitarfreak1387 said:


> da fvck did i just read?


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## insanebassninja (Apr 9, 2014)

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Sounds to me like your just trying to find yourself, and there's no problem with that, just pursue happiness with diligence.



Your right and people saying my grammar is bad(When I know its bad and I made the Alteem to make it better and its trying is not good eounch. Really thats what am ticked off about on this site. 

Then again I have been a sucker for Reilgee the reason is I can't think that we came from noting, and what caused the big bang if there was noting, that is why I think there is a God.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Apr 10, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Really thats what am ticked off about on this site.
> 
> .



You know we're just giving you a hard time? There are plenty of grammar Nazi's on here but I just found it amusing. Nothing wrong with it as long as you're striving to be better!


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## Svava (Apr 10, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> O OK then... didn't people after master Muhammad. say stuff that he didn't say? Am just a having a hard time with getting pass of the guitar and music part of it all. Plus, I enjoy hearing the Qur'an in meditating other wise Metal when am not meditating



If you try to change everything in your life completely all at the same time you'll likely fail.

Just pursue what you're doing with the correct intentions and with moderation. 

I believe the theory is that if you intend to do good, strive to better yourself, and pray really hard, you'll probably succeed. That seems to be a theme among most religions.

Except the stupid ones.... (Starbucks, Bieberism, etc....)


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Apr 10, 2014)

Starbucks and Bieberism are considered religions? 


But I guess people worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster too so hey, what the f_uck? _


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## Svava (Apr 10, 2014)

AngstRiddenDreams said:


> Starbucks and Bieberism are considered religions? :wut:
> 
> 
> But I guess people worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster too so hey, what the f_uck? _



The only places I see people give so much money for so little material return is at religious fundraisers and at Starbucks. I can only assume that in both cases some degree of theology or belief comes into play xD

I'm telling you dude there's something going on 

Not Bieberism though- That's a cognitive disease involving severe mutation of the inferior colliculi, the superior olive and Wernicke's area....

My bad.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Apr 10, 2014)

I take back my statement, I could worship coffee as a mystical deity.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 10, 2014)

guitarfreak1387 said:


> da fvck did i just read?



Uhh.. My first draft, sorry. Am still working on it.


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## abandonist (Apr 10, 2014)

Since we're communicating with our words on here, it's all we have to go on. Yours are very, very bad. It makes your point hard to ascertain and makes you sound much less intelligent.


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## Watty (Apr 10, 2014)

Svava said:


> No you don't, but you do need to be aware of what it says in order to have any chance of correcting the people who have decided to misinterpret it, the Qur'an, or anything else in order to pursue violence and bigotry.
> 
> You can fight fire with fire all day- it will propagate its self. The only way to put it out is to take the effort to go out and get some water.



I believe you missed the point I was trying to make in that you don't have to have read the holy text (let alone read it "selectively" as you said) in order to look at unjustified bigotry with derision.



Eric Christian said:


> Interesting, because it literally baffles me that instead of voicing some original opinion about the subject that the OP brought up as usual you instead insert some negative comment to turn it into yet another thread about yourself and how superior your knowledge of everything is. Perhaps your fascination with interjecting your sardonic deprecation into every thread I post in would be better served by tempering your huge bloated ego...?



I don't care whether anyone on this forum identifies as being a Muslim.

What I do care about is the larger conversation regarding religious proclivities as they relate to the current structure of our society, hence the reason I commented on that issue instead of leaving a short, targeted reply letting the OP know that I was not, in fact, a Muslim....per the title of the thread. While this train of thought may not have been completely original, as we're want to expect when a position is changed as the result of thoughtful discussion, it was pertinent to the global conversation about how religious identities affect the way people treat each other, which I imagine was the ultimate point of the OP's inquiry. 

If you choose to see the post as negative, that's your prerogative. And how is offering an opinion about general disdain for faulty logic as it applies to the perpetuation of bigotry "making the thread about me and [my intelligence]?" And funny how your last sentence is an accurate description of most of the comments you tend to levy in situations like these. Pot calling the kettle and all that jazz. Or, it takes one to know one. Feel free to take your pick, but I'd rather you offer a real rebuttal to what I'd stated instead of trying to attack the means by which I said it.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 10, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Since we're communicating with our words on here, it's all we have to go on. Yours are very, very bad. It makes your point hard to ascertain and makes you sound much less intelligent.



Whoa... I didn't know this My Communication with words is bad? No... Am doing just fine here. No shit my wording is bad. Am trying to get it better right now. Am going to a toter right now. I guess that's not good eouch for people that had good teachers that gave a flying fvck.


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## Svava (Apr 10, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Since we're communicating with our words on here, it's all we have to go on. Yours are very, very bad. It makes your point hard to ascertain and makes you sound much less intelligent.



You need to understand that not everyone has access to a good education and sometimes people will mature without ever learning to read or write the way you or I do.

If you read his sig he's clearly aware of his problem and is trying to fix it. You being ill-mannered towards him only makes you look arrogant.

Good on him for at least manning up to it and trying to better himself...


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## insanebassninja (Apr 10, 2014)

Svava said:


> You need to understand that not everyone has access to a good education and sometimes people will mature without ever learning to read or write the way you or I do.
> 
> If you read his sig he's clearly aware of his problem and is trying to fix it. You being ill-mannered towards him only makes you look arrogant.
> 
> Good on him for at least manning up to it and trying to better himself...



Sometimes I wounder how my school got a 5 star ranking in Indiana. it was Mostly of just jocks that got the help. Really its the Special Ed Classes is what got me behind really. Also the No chield left behind Act... fvcking US Government.


----------



## Eric Christian (Apr 10, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> What made me Revert back to Islam
> 
> 
> .What made me revert back to Islam. I grew up as ever American has as a christian but in my first grade class I meet a girl who was Muslim. We became really close friends, even now we are close friends, I completely surprised her when I did it. Now its go back to grad school now.
> ...


 
In a month I'm guessing Scientology will be your next logical step.


----------



## Eric Christian (Apr 10, 2014)

Watty said:


> I don't care whether anyone on this forum identifies as being a Muslim.
> 
> What I do care about is the larger conversation regarding religious proclivities as they relate to the current structure of our society, hence the reason I commented on that issue instead of leaving a short, targeted reply letting the OP know that I was not, in fact, a Muslim....per the title of the thread. While this train of thought may not have been completely original, as we're want to expect when a position is changed as the result of thoughtful discussion, it was pertinent to the global conversation about how religious identities affect the way people treat each other, which I imagine was the ultimate point of the OP's inquiry.
> 
> If you choose to see the post as negative, that's your prerogative. And how is offering an opinion about general disdain for faulty logic as it applies to the perpetuation of bigotry "making the thread about me and [my intelligence]?" And funny how your last sentence is an accurate description of most of the comments you tend to levy in situations like these. Pot calling the kettle and all that jazz. Or, it takes one to know one. Feel free to take your pick, but I'd rather you offer a real rebuttal to what I'd stated instead of trying to attack the means by which I said it.



Global Conversation? lol... I'm surprised you didn't drop the word "pragmatic" into those jumbled up adjective festivals you call sentences. I know once you said your Mom was/is a teacher... so what happened? 

So yeah, once again I have no clue where your circular logic puzzles are taking me so maybe you can make your point in Dick & Jane format so a dumb country hick such as myself "that would be more suited to live in the South" can understand.


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## Svava (Apr 10, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> In a month I'm guessing Scientology will be your next logical step.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 10, 2014)

[QUO=Svava;3996686]



[/QUOTE]

That Is why I didn't even bother looking into that. Its a money loving cuit. (I really hope that is the right spelling am doing this from my phone again at work. hence the reason why am always on.)


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## Necris (Apr 10, 2014)

^ To be fair, every single religion on this planet is a cult.


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## AndrewFTMfan (Apr 10, 2014)

Oh the wonderful journey religion threads on SSO put you through...

I really have no idea the clusterfvck of comments I just read. The Charles Manson thing gave me a good chuckle though...

To the OP, good luck. Hope whatever you decide on in the end works out.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 10, 2014)

Necris said:


> ^ To be fair, every single religion on this planet is a cult.



Ok i'll give you that one. Plus I read Scientology its retarted.


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## Don Vito (Apr 10, 2014)

Keep us updated on your ninja training.


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## HoneyNut (Apr 10, 2014)

^ haha . but you know, that's stretching a bit too much.


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## Watty (Apr 10, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> Global Conversation? lol... I'm surprised you didn't drop the word "pragmatic" into those jumbled up adjective festivals you call sentences. I know once you said your Mom was/is a teacher... so what happened?
> 
> So yeah, once again I have no clue where your circular logic puzzles are taking me so maybe you can make your point in Dick & Jane format so a dumb country hick such as myself "that would be more suited to live in the South" can understand.



Adjective festivals....Flattery will get you nowhere, sir. 

And I said your political views made you more suited to live in the south, which is, in fact, a fact based on how you've portrayed yourself on the forum. Note that it in no way, shape, or form is indicative of a comment on your intelligence, so no need to make it seem like I was insulting you by saying what I did. The only reason it can easily be taken as an insult lies with those people who tend to share your views, so if you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the demographic.


----------



## Eric Christian (Apr 11, 2014)

Watty said:


> Adjective festivals....Flattery will get you nowhere, sir.
> 
> And I said your political views made you more suited to live in the south, which is, in fact, a fact based on how you've portrayed yourself on the forum. Note that it in no way, shape, or form is indicative of a comment on your intelligence, so no need to make it seem like I was insulting you by saying what I did. The only reason it can easily be taken as an insult lies with those people who tend to share your views, so if you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the demographic.





Pathetic backpedal. Again you're using your tepid over generalizations of a particular geographical region of the USA to somehow validate your point which only further digs you into your usual quagmire of foot in mouth disease. Better check that the fumes of the hybrid battery in your Prius are venting properly son.


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## Svava (Apr 11, 2014)




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## abandonist (Apr 11, 2014)

Svava said:


> You need to understand that not everyone has access to a good education and sometimes people will mature without ever learning to read or write the way you or I do.
> 
> If you read his sig he's clearly aware of his problem and is trying to fix it. You being ill-mannered towards him only makes you look arrogant.
> 
> Good on him for at least manning up to it and trying to better himself...



I have sigs and avatars turned off. You're all just words. 

I wasn't trying to be horrible, I was just stating how it comes off.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 11, 2014)

It's tough to approach an issue like his English skills. The rules of the site specify that English is the language to be used, because most of the members are from English-speaking countries. At the same time, though, native speakers are supposed to avoid things like l33t speak or other forms of heavy slang, because that makes it difficult for members who speak English as a second (third, fourth, etc) language to understand what's being said. 

With that in mind, how are people supposed to react when there is a native speaker of the language whose writing is poor enough that even other native speakers of the language can't always understand what he's trying to say, let alone non-native speakers? We can't say "speak English" like we would to two people conversing in Spanish, and we can't chastise him for using txt tlk like we might some 14 year old who lives on the internet. 

For whatever reason, his language skills are terrible, and it's a barrier to proper communication. I teach English as a second language and as such I'm used to having to decipher some pretty off-the-wall constructs, and even I'm occasionally flummoxed by what he writes.

So sure, we have to keep in mind that not everyone's skills are on the same level and that he's trying to improve his skills, but he should also keep in mind that...

1) As long as his skills continue to be so poor, he will continue to hear about it, but...
2) That's far from just an SSO thing. If anything, the moderation of this site ensures that we aren't complete dicks about it to him, which he's likely to encounter elsewhere.

I think I'm just rambling at this point. Basically, I see where he's coming from, abut I also see where the people who complain about it are coming from. Understanding is a two-way street.


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## Varcolac (Apr 11, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> TEFL



Been there, done that. Lots of fun deciphering what people actually mean when they've got just about enough English to talk around a point but not enough to say the point. Add in to that the weird kind of English that people can gain by osmosis and popular culture, so they've essentially got song lyrics and random connectives.

Now I'm teaching history to teenagers. Their spelling and grammar can be... interesting. Quite often they'll be making the right kind of points, but it'll be buried under a layer of bad writing that makes it a trawl to get to. I try to be generous with marking, focusing on the positives and providing targeted comments for them to improve their writing, but sometimes it reaches a point where I have to write in the margin "Jimmy, I have no idea what you're saying here."

I'm rambling too. Anyway, written communication is magic. It enables us to glimpse the thoughts of people thousands of years in the past and thousands of miles away. Because it's such a powerful tool, I always think that there's a responsibility on the writer to write as clearly as they possibly can - this requires some time spent proof-reading and organising your thoughts.

If I were writing this post in Spanish, I'd spend a hell of a long time checking my sentences for grammar and meaning. I speak Spanish all right, but _mi nivel de español no es lo suficientemente bueno para esto._

I give students a break when they've got bad grammar and spelling, but really they need to put the effort in to be as clear as possible in order for me to meet them half way, or it'll be a lot of this:


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## Svava (Apr 11, 2014)

abandonist said:


> I have sigs and avatars turned off. You're all just words.
> 
> I wasn't trying to be horrible, I was just stating how it comes off.



Ahh- yeah if you didn't read his sig that's understandable


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## insanebassninja (Apr 11, 2014)

Jeesan said:


> ^ haha . but you know, that's stretching a bit too much.



I could just start posting video responses. actually it probably would be easier to so for me. however I have a stuttering problem too so I don't know how well that would pan out. once again I'm posting from my phone again.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 11, 2014)

Don Vito said:


> Keep us updated on your ninja training.



You want that in video format? Reall, that's the only way do so.


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## Xaios (Apr 11, 2014)

abandonist said:


> I have sigs and avatars turned off. You're all just words.



So you've never basked in the glory of the Hypnotoad?

Let me enlighten you.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 11, 2014)

Xaios said:


> So you've never basked in the glory of the Hypnotoad?
> 
> Let me enlighten you.


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## Svava (Apr 11, 2014)

Xaios said:


> So you've never basked in the glory of the Hypnotoad?
> 
> Let me enlighten you.



All revere the Hypnotoad, Herald of Djod.


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## insanebassninja (Apr 11, 2014)

Svava said:


> All revere the Hypnotoad, Herald of Djod.



Not sound like a Moron and all. What is the different between Djod and Djent? Am Not Trolling just wondering. You can send me music videos to show me. This maybe random and all but, I Like Groove Metal, Progressive Metal, Melodic metal Mostly.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Apr 11, 2014)

insanebassninja said:


> Not sound like a Moron and all. What is the different between Djod and Djent? Am Not Trolling just wondering. You can send me music videos to show me. This maybe random and all but, I Like Groove Metal, Progressive Metal, Melodic metal Mostly.


Djent is a debated genre of music and Djod is an inside joke from when the sight moved servers or something IT related, some older members can explain it better than I.


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## Svava (Apr 11, 2014)

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Djent is a debated genre of music and Djod is an inside joke from when the sight moved servers or something IT related, some older members can explain it better than I.



I think it's in a thread called "find strings for this" that Xaios linked all of the source stuff isn't it?


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## abandonist (Apr 12, 2014)

Xaios said:


> So you've never basked in the glory of the Hypnotoad?
> 
> Let me enlighten you.



I have no idea what this is. Is this a thing that's known?


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## tacotiklah (Apr 12, 2014)

Religion threads here are always a laugh for me. Not because I find the religions themselves humorous, but because people always move to one of three positions:

1.) They take it too seriously and as such, move from the heart of the issue to ad hominem attacks.

2.) They don't take it seriously enough and start talking about random off-topic crap that makes no sense. Or they do another kind of ad hominem, like attacking other people's grammar, which is still off-topic and irrelevant.

3.) They completely side-step discussion of the topic by asserting that all religion is bogus and therefore the topic is rendered obsolete. I do get a bit disappointed when they forget putting in that whole fedora-tip thing afterwards. Kind of hard to ask for respect for your decision to not be religious when you spend your time actively slagging anything remotely religious. 

Even when people are actively trying to NOT default to one of these roles, they slide right into them like a hand into a glove. Shame too. We had the potential for meaningful discussion on a topic that is important to a good number of people, and it was wasted on those three things.

More on-topic:
I don't know of any that are of Islamic faith on here, though I'm sure they exist. I get what you mean about trying to find others that share a common belief system though. I do suggest that it's good to have people of other idealogical backgrounds in your circle of friends as well, lest you be surrounded by parrots and yes men/women. 

Beyond that, good luck in your search for others to relate to and share common experiences and ideas with. If I do happen to come across another muslim forumer, I will be happy to send them your way.


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## Svava (Apr 12, 2014)

abandonist said:


> I have no idea what this is. Is this a thing that's known?



If you do not know the origins of this creature then I can no longer get mad at you for being so very argumentative sometimes.

Truly your life sucks profound existential goat thighs if this is the first time you have laid eyes upon this creature


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## Nile (May 8, 2014)

Nyx Erebos said:


> So you can't be my friend because a book told you so ?



I lost a girlfriend because of the Bible saying the same type of shit. Absolute bullshit.

That post was awhile ago. Statement still stands.


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## stevexc (May 8, 2014)

Nile said:


> I lost a girlfriend because of the Bible saying the same type of shit. Absolute bullshit.
> 
> That post was awhile ago. Statement still stands.



Lost a girlfriend - or dodged a bullet?


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## Nile (May 8, 2014)

stevexc said:


> Lost a girlfriend - or dodged a bullet?



Lol. Probably bullet.

Hail the Bible*!


*No.


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## bluediamond (May 11, 2014)

I'm not a muslim but most of my paternal family are, so are my friends in college. I never met an openly conservative/hard line muslims, but there is increaseing talk about sharia and becoming islamic state. "Secular" and "pluralism" have become dirty words in online discussions lately.
What I observe living among them, I think they are more xenophobic than any other religion.
And if a muslim does not hate USA and israel, his/her credential as a muslim is often questioned.


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## Svava (May 11, 2014)

bluediamond said:


> I'm not a muslim but most of my paternal family are, so are my friends in college. I never met an openly conservative/hard line muslims, but there is increaseing talk about sharia and becoming islamic state. "Secular" and "pluralism" have become dirty words in online discussions lately.
> What I observe living among them, I think they are more xenophobic than any other religion.
> And if a muslim does not hate USA and israel, his/her credential as a muslim is often questioned.



Neither myself nor the other Muslim cadet in my ROTC program hate the United States. Nor does my father, a former signal corps officer.

We can't do much to stop people from turning to hatred to express their views rather than reasoned debate and expression, but I can promise you that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with extremist, xenophobic, or terrorist points of view.

When you consider that Islam is a religion which promoted a balanced lifestyle and discourages extremism, you can't help but wonder whether or not people who exhibit extremist behavior and yet call themselves Muslim have actually researched the Qur'an or the Hadith (in the same way that suicide bombers who call themselves Muslim may not have gotten the memo that suicide is not permissible in their religion).


As far as Muslims being more xenophobic than practitioners of other religions goes, I disagree. I once sat in a church after meeting the Pastor who was giving the sermon. Towards the end, he went on a rant about being unequally yoked and about not taking people of other religions for friends. I have Christian friends who literally winced at me telling them that, because that is not the spirit of Christianity. They cannot help that particular pastor's extremism and xenophobia, just like the moderate majority of Muslims cannot help the extremism and xenophobia of an unpleasant few.

I legitimately hope that your perspective of Islam and Muslims is not permanently tainted by your experience with a few people who, to put it bluntly, are just doin' it wrong.


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## mr_rainmaker (May 11, 2014)

Svava buddy this should brighten up this thread,for you buddy


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## Svava (May 11, 2014)

mr_rainmaker said:


> Svava buddy this should brighten up this thread,for you buddy



Lol xD

Thanks for the effort. The majority of religious discussions i find online just depres me ><

Sometimes I need a rainbow pony to cheer me up <3


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## Necris (May 11, 2014)

Svava said:


> When you consider that Islam is a religion which promoted a balanced lifestyle and discourages extremism....



And yet Islamic extremism continues to grow and spread. Maybe, just maybe, the contents of the Quran and Hadith are a bit too easy to interpret in a way that supports rather than condemns extremism and the push back against these extremist views is lacking from those who live in areas where they are gaining a foothold.

Denying this possibility in the name of political-correctness or equality, as many do, isn't helping the issue.

Things like this shouldn't have any support:

Pakistani laws prohibiting underage marriage un-Islamic: CII - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## Svava (May 11, 2014)

Necris said:


> And yet Islamic extremism continues to grow and spread. Maybe, just maybe, the contents of the Quran and Hadith are a bit too easy to interpret in a way that supports rather than condemns extremism and the push back against these extremist views is lacking from those who live in areas where they are gaining a foothold.
> 
> Denying this possibility in the name of political-correctness or equality, as many do, isn't helping the issue.
> 
> ...



Extremism spreads through many mediums.

I do agree with you that there are many people who call themselves Muslim and yet run a mock of themselves and others, extrapolating things from the Qur'an and Hadith which simply do not exist therein and cause very damaging consequences as a result.

But even more common than Islamic (or religious in general) extremism is extreme hedonism that we see all around in society today. College students of every denomination revel in drugs, promiscuity, alcohol, and wastefulness and when questioned as to why they do such things their responses vary from "it's all good," to "my religion says.... thus it's okay."

Most of the time, in my opinion, those people are taking medical advice, religion, and whatever else they draw influence from out of context as a way to rationalize what they want to do and go ahead and do it. 

This doesn't seem very different in my eyes from what Islamic or other religious extremists do. They find a source that many people consider reputable, and find ridiculous ways to interpret it that make them feel justified in doing what they want to do. They also ignore that which they don't want to see! Just like I have seen some people first hand say "weed is natural and less damaging than smoking so I do it," when they do not look at the counterargument comprised of research suggesting damaging effects on the brain in the long term!

That's not different from a "Muslim" reading a verse about "hacking at their necks," and ignoring the context which was a specific battle! Or reading the part about "you may marry 4 wives," without reading the part about "if you can treat them equally, and if you cannot then marry only one."



So while I agree with you that extremism is spreading, I do not feel as though Islamic extremism in particular is spreading widely enough or doing enough damage to justify directing a storm of hatred against it particularly. Rather, I believe that extremism in any thing should be avoided and rallied against because it is extremism as a practice, not extremism as applied to any one thing which causes damage to ones self and others.


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 11, 2014)

Svava said:


> That's not different from a "Muslim" reading a verse about "hacking at their necks," and ignoring the context which was a specific battle! Or reading the part about "you may marry 4 wives," without reading the part about "if you can treat them equally, and if you cannot then marry only one."



Except of course that drugged-out college kids are for the most part only hurting themselves, rather than physically harming and/or imposing their drug-addled ways on others legally or through force.

I'm not saying that's what all or even any significant number of muslims do, obviously, but to compare hedonistic college students with militant Islamic extremists is a bit disingenuous.


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## Svava (May 11, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Except of course that drugged-out college kids are for the most part only hurting themselves, rather than physically harming and/or imposing their drug-addled ways on others legally or through force.
> 
> I'm not saying that's what all or even any significant number of muslims do, obviously, but to compare hedonistic college students with militant Islamic extremists is a bit disingenuous.



I was not saying the actions are as bad, merely making the point that extremism causes damage in any context. Surely the individual college student getting wasted and attending an orgy is less problematic than an extremist militant going out and suicide bombing a Church, but tolerance of either will bring long term damage (physical, psychological, and cultural) to the population at large.

I will agree with you wholeheartedly though that to the best of my knowledge some of the most horrendous injustice in our time has been wrought by the hands of people who call themselves Muslim and who are exhibiting serious extremism. But things just as bad have been done in the name of patriotism and they have been done as a result of taking some legitimately well-meaning principals, twisting them around to suit the warped minds of those in question, and implementing laws and programs that are just not humane! Torture and carpet bombing among the things that I am referring to here.

I disagree though that the cause of their actions is their Islam, just as I do not believe that authorizing torture was something which happened as a result of patriotism or religion, but rather due to the perversion in the minds of the people who allowed it. Sick people are sick whether they call themselves Muslim, Christian, or whatever else. I know my religion, and I know that nothing in it permits suicide bombing (or any sort of suicide) or any sort of killing unless you are on the field of battle and are defending yourself and your people.

Suicide bombing is not okay in any circumstance (in Islam)- killing civilians is forbidden and suicide is forbidden! Double whammy!

How these people call themselves Muslim is beyond me!

I am not a scholar, but I know my faith fairly well and I know that if they were reading and understanding the books that detail the faith that they proclaim to follow, they would not be doing the things that they are doing.

Attacking Islamic Extremism is okay. Attacking extremism is okay. Attacking Islam its self is simply misguided! Attacking any body of people at large because of the sickening actions of a minority is misguided!

That is my stance on the issue and I feel as though it's a rational one.


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 11, 2014)

I'm a bit confused as to why you brought it up in response to what Necris said, then. It seemed like you were trying to use it to somehow refute the validity of his statement, when all it really accomplishes iss drawing attention away from it and pointing it towards something else. Saying "well there are other kinds of extremism, too!" doesn't really do anything to deal with the problem of Fundamentalist Islamic extremism, which you admit has been a problem in our time.

Of course, maybe you weren't trying to refute him and were just expanding the conversation, and I'm reading too much in to everything .


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## Svava (May 11, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I'm a bit confused as to why you brought it up in response to what Necris said, then. It seemed like you were trying to use it to somehow refute the validity of his statement, when all it really accomplishes iss drawing attention away from it and pointing it towards something else. Saying "well there are other kinds of extremism, too!" doesn't really do anything to deal with the problem of Fundamentalist Islamic extremism, which you admit has been a problem in our time.
> 
> Of course, maybe you weren't trying to refute him and were just expanding the conversation, and I'm reading too much in to everything .



I can see why it came off that way- but yes you're reading too far into it xD

Islamic Extremism is a problem- regardless of what other types of extremism are also a problem. No trying to distract from the issue. I just wanted to express that I felt as though directing hatred towards Islam was incorrect, and that the rage should be directed towards extremism in general (Islamic Extremists included).

I guess I was trying to expand the conversation. Not entirely sure this should be expanded any more though xD


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 11, 2014)

I think when when other types of extremism reach "blow up skyscrapers full of thousands of innocent people"-levels, they'll start getting some of the flak Islamic extremism does .


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## ElRay (May 12, 2014)

Eric Christian said:


> P.S. Just so you know you might as well sell all your gear and forget about ever playing guitar or listening to any music whatsoever because according to the Hadith it is Haram (Bad/Satan's Work)



/thread

Some say, it's only stringed instruments that are haram. Drums (tabla) are OK under certain circumstances.

Others say that all idle tasks that draw people away from Allah are haram.

Ray


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## bluediamond (May 12, 2014)

Svava, I understand your point, I agree there are idiots in every religion. I do have big respect for moderate and liberal muslims in my country. I think there's something about being the majority that bring out the worst of any religion. But I'd like to point out it's not just about the so called islamophobia in the west but also vice versa, some muslims are negative even hateful about anything foreign. I sincerely wish more muslim will hold your view, because the current state of being is quite depressing.


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## Watty (May 12, 2014)

Didn't this thread get closed?

On topic: For those interested, there's literally tons of really good debates on this topic you can find on youtube. Harris and Ali come to mind; tandem and individually.


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## Svava (May 13, 2014)

bluediamond said:


> Svava, I understand your point, I agree there are idiots in every religion. I do have big respect for moderate and liberal muslims in my country. I think there's something about being the majority that bring out the worst of any religion. But I'd like to point out it's not just about the so called islamophobia in the west but also vice versa, some muslims are negative even hateful about anything foreign. I sincerely wish more muslim will hold your view, because the current state of being is quite depressing.



Forgive the poor editing on this one I am on traveling using the voice chat on my iPhone to take this down.

I know that there are a lot of places were anti-American sentiment is prevalent.but last time I was in the middle east I remember jogging through a village up in the mountains outside of amman Jordan.

I was stopped by some kids who were maybe forward to 10 years old out riding their bikes through the village.they didn't recognize me and asked me who I was and where I was from.when they found out that I was from America they all became very excited and wanted me to tell them all about it as if it was some dream for them to go there.

Later on during that same trip I was working with a couple of people at in this city and they were telling me how they wanted to come to America to they were joking with me about coming and working for me and getting a visa even though I had no real job to give them but you know they were just playing around.

The overall sentiment I got from the majority of people I met in that part of the world was that they saw America as a place of freedom and opportunity not one of corruption that went against their beliefs.conversely here in the US whenever I talk to someone about the Middle East they don't have much good to say about it probably because the media is the main way that they learn about the part of the world and so they hold some really negative views about that area.

Summarily I don't really think that the majority of people in that part of the world do hold negative views about the United States.when I was over there I even found a lot of similar things culturally they have all the same television programs a lot of people in the big cities dressed the same act the same do the same things as we do here in the US.so I think even over there in that part of the world the extreme anti-western is anti-this anti-that it's a minority not a majority.

I do agree with you though that it would be very beneficial for more people to have a more moderate view.


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## Mik3D23 (May 15, 2014)

Sudan woman gets death sentence for apostasy - Middle East - Al Jazeera English


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## 7stg (May 16, 2014)

This version outlines the whats and whys better.
Pregnant doctor to be hanged for not being a Muslim - Independent.ie

she was given three days to recant her faith. "We gave you three days to recant but you insist on not returning to Islam. I sentence you to be hanged," She was brought up as a Christian by her mother. However, because her father was Muslim, she was considered by the court to be the same. 

Mrs Ibrahim also faces a sentence of 100 lashes for adultery on the grounds that her marriage to a Christian man from South Sudan is considered void under Sharia law


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## Svava (May 16, 2014)

You frame these posts as though it is the fault of Islam that this woman is facing such injustice. The blame falls on the deranged people who are doing this, not Islam, the religion which they paradoxically claim to follow.



> "We gave you three days to recant but you insist on not returning to Islam. I sentence you to be hanged,"



Let me be clear, the above statement by these people is NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM PERMISSIBLE IN ISLAM!

The Qur'an, 2:256



> " Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks, And Allah hears and knows all things."


The Qur'an, 10:99



> "If it had been your Lord's will, they would all have believed, - all who are on earth! Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"



The Qur'an, 88:21-26



> " Therefore you do give remind, for you are one to remind. You are not one to manage (men's) affairs. But if any turn away and reject Allah,- Allah will punish him with a mighty Punishment, For to us will be their return; then it will be for us to call them to account"



^ Read the above. It specifies here, no person has business forcing another to accept Islam. They are not recommended to do so, they are not compelled to do so, in fact they are not ALLOWED to do so by the rules of Islam. Furthermore it is the place of god alone to deal punishment as he sees fit IT IS NOT THE PLACE OF PEOPLE TO DO SO. These people who say they are carrying out God's will in punishing this woman are WRONG. They are 100% WRONG.

The Qur'an, 60:8



> "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just."



^ Even in this circumstance the Muslim is encouraged to be kind and just rather than vengeful on people who try to prevent them from practicing their faith and living in peace. 



I have seen people post here, in the politics section, and elsewhere on the internet links, as you have, which frame Islam in a negative light. I agree that people should know about this injustice. The news should be propagated that people might become aware of the wrongs being committed and strive to prevent further wrong from being done. This is a beautiful thing to do- spreading awareness for other's strife.

And yet here in the two posts before mine and in many other places you see people framing these things in such a way that it seems to be the fault of Islam that these things are being done wrong. What does anyone stand to gain from spreading hatred and misunderstanding? Nothing!

But people will post these things without trying to make it clear to readers that it is not Islam that is the problem, it is the perversion and insanity of PEOPLE that is the problem. 


So let me be clear here so that anyone who comes along, reads the posts above mine and decides Islam inspires people to commit these horrible acts.

Islam does NOT condone such things.

It does NOT encourage such things.

The people who torture, rape, and kill and claim that they are following the Qur'an are ignorant. If you do not believe me go to your local bookstore and buy a Qur'an. Sit down and read it.

If the people doing these things had read the book then they would not be torturing and killing people.

Don't make the same mistake they did and propagate hatred, intolerance, and injustice by pontificating about things you do not understand and have not researched. It's disgusting, it's damaging to society and no good will come of it.


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## 7stg (May 16, 2014)

I take a 3 fold approach in my view of Islam, 1 Read the texts 2 watch the actions 3 hear their motives, and for me they all connect into a 3 fold cord.

I do have 2 copies of the quran and I'm aware of what the book says, and I find its message correlates to the actions that I see.


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## Necris (May 16, 2014)

I made the point of highlighting interpretation for a reason. 

When an extremist says they have killed innocent people in the name of Allah, in the name of furthering Islam and spreading it's rule, that they feel their religion compels them to wage war against secularism or other religions, that they desire for the laws of their land (and others) to be based entirely on Islam, forgive me if I am willing to take them at their word. 

Their interpretation of Islamic texts has compelled them to act, their interpretation of Islamic texts has justified their actions.

Your interpretation of Islam defines their actions as un-Islamic. Their interpretation of Islam may well define you as an enemy of Islam.

It may be Islam at its worst, but the motivation is still Islam.


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 16, 2014)

Perhaps the well-known fallacy should be renamed "No True Muslim."


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## Svava (May 16, 2014)

> I made the point of highlighting interpretation for a reason.
> 
> When an extremist says they have killed innocent people in the name of Allah, in the name of furthering Islam and spreading it's rule, that they feel their religion compels them to wage war against secularism or other religions, that they desire for the laws of their land (and others) to be based entirely on Islam, forgive me if I am willing to take them at their word.
> 
> ...



This point of view can be rationalized, sure. I can see how your logic would lead you to that. I still argue that holding this particular point of view has no practical value in solving the issue at hand, namely injustices being committed by extremists.

Why?

Because there are upwards of a billion Muslims in the world and if you accept that Islam is the reason why these handful of people are being horrible then you have to eradicate Islam. Good luck.

Conversely, if you see things as I do that the issue is a few extremists and not the religion at large, you get rid of the extremists and your problem is solved. Still a grand task but far more achievable than extinguishing a religion.

Also there is precedent. 

The crusades were a thing. They're not any more. Christianity is still here. 

The crusaders are gone and yet the mass of moderate practitioners of the ideology are still around and thriving. I would take this as an indicator that the inhuman acts are the fault of the EXTREMISTS and not the RELIGION, because as soon as the EXTREMISTS are gone the insanity stops. We have no precedent of eradicating a religion because I guarantee you it's as impossible as impossibility gets to do such a thing.

Do you see a purpose in your way of thinking that I don't?





> I do have 2 copies of the quran and I'm aware of what the book says, and I find its message correlates to the actions that I see.



If I give a 5th grader a college level biology course book and then tried to debate him I would expect a similar result. He has either not understood the words or failed to grasp the concepts due to lack of background or simple incomprehension.

I can and have pointed in the Qur'an to plain black and white which indicates the wrongness of what these extremists are doing and highlight that the Qur'an's message is one of peace and tolerance.

To me it's as if I have pointed to a mathematical position that 1+1=2 and here you are insisting that "my studies indicate that it is equal to 3".


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## Mik3D23 (May 16, 2014)

Svava said:


> To me it's as if I have pointed to a mathematical position that 1+1=2 and here you are insisting that "my studies indicate that it is equal to 3".




A substantial portion of people of this faith will argue that it equals 3 as well. As Necris pointed out, some peoples' understandings of their faith will vary. The only source of a religious belief is not just a book. Yes the Quran may be the supreme law of Islam, but that is not always seen as the case. Many people will distort it to fit their own ideals, as is the case similarly with the Bible. Over years, decades, and centuries, these perversions begin to become accepted and truths, and people who deviate from them are shunned as deviating from the religion. 

If Islam is as straightforward as you say it is, where are all the dissenters? Why are so many Middle-Eastern governments still run by Islamist extremists who will do things such as hang a woman for not converting to Islam? And why are people not challenging all of these governments if they should know that all of this is actually against their beliefs? If Islam is such a religion of peace, why is there so much hatred and bloodshed?

Also, Svava, please dispel the notion that we are spreading hate, as you were quick to accuse in your last post. I can't speak for the others, but I did not post that article as a source to create hatred of a religion, and I certainly don't support the notion of "eradicating Islam". I really don't get how you can jump to that conclusion so quickly, not every one that challenges a religion is Bill Maher.


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## Svava (May 16, 2014)

> A substantial portion of people of this faith will argue that it equals 3 as well. As Necris pointed out, some peoples' understandings of their faith will vary. The only source of a religious belief is not just a book. Yes the Quran may be the supreme law of Islam, but that is not always seen as the case. Many people will distort it to fit their own ideals, as is the case similarly with the Bible. Over years, decades, and centuries, these perversions begin to become accepted and truths, and people who deviate from them are shunned as deviating from the religion.



^ here is precisely what I've been saying.

The faith is not the issue, it is the people's distortions that are the issue. This is why I have problems with people directing their displeasure towards Islam or Christianity or religion in general when faced with someone committing injustice in the name of god.



> If Islam is as straightforward as you say it is, where are all the dissenters?



I would ask the same question, but human nature is human nature. There are not many people who have the guts, intellect, or (and here's the big one) initiative to bring about the change they want to see in the world. It's disappointing, but who am I to talk? I'm hardly seeking audience with the government of The Sudan. 

Then there's the other issue. I'm dissenting right here- but I have no influence. Most of the people you'll find who understand the Qur'an and would like to make a case against a theocratic dictatorship have no means nor influence to gain audience with these people and express themselves. Most people wouldn't be taken seriously even if they could.

But that's an issue outside of the scope of our discussion here- although I do think it's an important one to discuss.



> Why are so many Middle-Eastern governments still run by Islamist extremists who will do things such as hang a woman for not converting to Islam? And why are people not challenging all of these governments if they should know that all of this is actually against their beliefs?



Maybe you are braver than I, but if I knew that my government would kill me and my family for expressing views different than theirs then I may not be so hasty to open my mouth.

The only sort of challenge that would make a difference is a demonstration in numbers too great to quell quietly. This is similar to what happened in Egypt. Enough people were involved so when the police and military get violent other, powerful nations become aware and apply pressure to the people who are causing the violence. 

But as we have seen, this is not a simple, effective thing to be done and I am not at all surprised that more people are not taking action against these governments. They need leadership, they need organization, and "they" need to be a group in the first place. Most people would rather hide and look after their own than speak out for the greater good- and I wouldn't blame them for fearing for their families and their own hides.

But that again is an issue caused by insanity and misinterpretation, not Islam its self nor by any religion - which was the point I have been trying to make in my previous posts.



> If Islam is such a religion of peace, why is there so much hatred and bloodshed?



If Christianity is a religion of love and peace (as I have heard it claimed) then why did The Crusades occur?

Not because the message of the bible is corrupt (in spirit) but because people went mad with power and decided to persecute everyone that they do not like or do not want to deal with.

Similarly, why would these people in positions of power in the Arab countries want to contend with differences of opinion and the like when they can easily kill the dissenters and make themselves so intimidating that nobody will rise against them?

This power-hungriness has been seen time and time again and is disgusting, but it seems to be human nature. Too much unchecked power causes this kind of inhumanity. 

But I think the proof of my argument here is in the pudding. What's happening now at the hands of Muslim extremists is no different than similar things happening at the hands of other power mad tyrants (Hitler, Pol Pot etc.) or at the hands of other religious extremists (The Crusades).


I would also say xenophobia has a hand in this. The KKK is an example of what I'm talking about here- they hate everything that isn't whiter than sour cream and in agreement with everything they believe! They burned and beat blacks when they had the ability to do so, just like these crazies in the Middle East are persecuting, beating, and killing people who they do not understand/ do not agree with.



> Also, Svava, please dispel the notion that we are spreading hate, as you were quick to accuse in your last post. I can't speak for the others, but I did not post that article as a source to create hatred of a religion, and I certainly don't support the notion of "eradicating Islam". I really don't get how you can jump to that conclusion so quickly, not every one that challenges a religion is Bill Maher.



My statement was not intended as a slight against you or the other posters.

But what if someone strolled into this thread knowing nothing about Islam and went ahead and read the links you posted without having easy access to the other side of the coin.

They would immediately dislike Islam and would probably act in concordance with that- which may cause them issues with personal relationships with moderate Muslims in the world around them which do not need to exist.

My irritation was not that you guys posted these things, but that nobody bothered making the moderate majority's position known.

So I posted what I posted because I would want someone coming into this with little or no knowledge of Islam to understand that the religion its self is not the catalyst of hatred, it is the extremism, xenophobia, and misinterpretation that is causing it.

Considering it that way, yes, hatred was being spread, probably unintentionally, but it was being spread nevertheless.

At least now with this extended discussion available in the same thread, the moderate, uninformed reader can better grasp the situation and thereby prevent misunderstanding and hatred (the cause of the injustices we're discussion) to be propagated.

I hope that clarifies my position - I have no interest in attacking any individual, I just disagree with the way in which the data has been presented and the effects that could stem from said presentation.


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## Necris (May 16, 2014)

Svava said:


> ... there are upwards of a billion Muslims in the world and *if you accept that Islam is the reason why these handful of people are being horrible then you have to eradicate Islam*. Good luck.
> 
> Conversely, if you see things as I do that *the issue is a few extremists and not the religion at large, you get rid of the extremists and your problem is solved*. Still a grand task but far more achievable than extinguishing a religion.


In my opinion, seeing such an opinion coming from an American Muslim is far more damaging to an outsiders view of the religion than anything I, 7stg, or anyone else posted in this thread.

Eradicate Islam or leave Islam alone and focus simply on getting rid of the extremists are not the only two choices. To present these as the only two options is ridiculous.

Moderate Muslims would sooner make questioning the religion itself absolutely off limits than ever admit for a moment that there is even a potential link between Islam and Islamic extremism. You yourself have tried time and time again to divorce from Islam those extremists who in their own words claim motivated by Islam.

Islam has not become viewed in the west as fertile ground for extremism because the "Moderate Majority" is _too willing_ to discuss the possible ties between terrorism and the sacred texts of Islam and attempt to fix the problem, or because they are _too loudly_ or _too strongly_ opposing those who espouse extremist views.

Of the "moderate majority" those who are willing to have a difficult discussion seem to represent a very small minority. Those who would like to deflect criticism from Islam, like yourself, appear to make up a much larger portion of that majority.

Unfortunately silence can breed distrust, it can lead outsiders to believe that even the moderates of your religion secretly endorse the views of the extremists. It's not fair, it's not logical but it will still happen and must be dealt with. Staying quiet about the issue of extremism and attempting to deflect criticism in an effort to protect the good name of Islam may actually be hurting how others view your religion just as badly as the extremists are. 


"What these people claim Islam is motivating them to do is wrong, this is not Islam."
"How do we fix it? How do we make it clear that Islam does not support this?"
"Islam is perfect. There is nothing to fix. If the problem were a part of Islam itself the only way to rid ourselves of the problem would be to destroy Islam."

Explain to me how _that_ is a useful viewpoint, because that is what I continue to get from you.





> If I give a 5th grader a college level biology course book and then tried to debate him I would expect a similar result. He has either not understood the words or failed to grasp the concepts due to lack of background or simple incomprehension.
> 
> I can and have pointed in the Qur'an to plain black and white which indicates the wrongness of what these extremists are doing and highlight that the Qur'an's message is one of peace and tolerance.
> 
> To me it's as if I have pointed to a mathematical position that 1+1=2 and here you are insisting that "my studies indicate that it is equal to 3".


If it were as black and white as you want it to be Extremism would have a much harder time gaining a foothold.

You're ignoring, yet again, the fact that conflicting viewpoints create a choice for the person interpreting the text. If I have been taught throughout my life that the violent passage trumps the peaceful passage which contradicts it take a wild guess at which passage I am likely to abide by.


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## 7stg (May 16, 2014)

Svava said:


> If I give a 5th grader a college level biology course book and then tried to debate him I would expect a similar result. He has either not understood the words or failed to grasp the concepts due to lack of background or simple incomprehension.
> 
> I can and have pointed in the Qur'an to plain black and white which indicates the wrongness of what these extremists are doing and highlight that the Qur'an's message is one of peace and tolerance.
> 
> To me it's as if I have pointed to a mathematical position that 1+1=2 and here you are insisting that "my studies indicate that it is equal to 3".



This is simply ad hominem. 


According to the 2013 Pew Research Survey 


> In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses. Some of the highest support for stoning is found in South Asia and the Middle East-North Africa region. In Pakistan (89%) and Afghanistan (85%)
> 
> In six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates. Taking the life of those who abandon Islam is most widely supported in Egypt (86%) and Jordan (82%).
> 
> Across the countries surveyed, many Muslims who say their laws do not follow sharia believe this is a bad thing. Muslims in South Asia are especially likely to express this sentiment, including at least eight-in-ten Muslims in Pakistan (91%), Afghanistan (84%) and Bangladesh (83%)



As the numbers show "extremist" beliefs are not just held by a small minority, but around half and in some islamic countries, as the studies show, the those who adhere to this line of thinking approach 90 percent. To deny this and assert otherwise denies the reality of what is going on.


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## Necris (May 17, 2014)

Also I would question Svavas "precedent" for how Christianity focusing on removing extremism has eradicated extremists. 

Look at the ties of many hate groups across the world to christian beliefs.

Go to countries in Africa like Uganda and see how Christians are passing laws to make homosexuality punishable by death. How those suspected of being gay, and those who are supporters of the rights of gays are exposed in state newspapers and are arrested, imprisoned and in some cases killed. Then look back to the United States to find churches and missionaries who spread these ideas. 

Go to Kenya and see how an entire village will drag innocent men and women from their homes, beat them and burn them to death simply because they have been accused of being witches.

Go read about the Army of God and how they bomb abortion clinics in an effort to "kill the killers".


The Christian Identity movement, the Christian Patriot Movement, Hutaree, The Covenant, Sword and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Eric Robert Rudolph, Anders Behring Brevik.

Extremist Christianity isn't gone, it may not be spreading quickly but it's still around.


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 17, 2014)

Devil's advocate (Shaytan's advocate?) here, but those stats only talk about what percentage of the people who believe the government should follow Sharia law hold those extremist beliefs, they _don't_ talk about what percentage of the countries' Muslim population believe the government should follow Sharia law.


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## Svava (May 17, 2014)

It is my determination that my continued participation in attempting to bring you around to my point of view is an ill-spent effort.

Necris I totally understand where you are coming from- really I do. But I am a man who thinks in a very straightforward manner. I read Qur'an and I read Hadith, and in neither do I find anything at all that would make me think that Islam would promote extremism.

Granted, there are individual lines and verses which, if taken out of context, could convince the reader that extreme and unacceptable action should be taken. While I am educated enough to understand context and tone, I will admit that there are a bulk of people who are not so fortunate and would more easily tempted to pick up their torches and pitchforks.

If you think the world would be better without religion I would disagree on the grounds that I do not think that human nature is good enough to prevent inhuman acts. I read "Lord of the Flies" in middle school and tend to agree with what I perceive the author's viewpoint to be; in a natural state without law, humans will likely behave inhumanely. 


My point of view is unchanged. I believe that Islam is overtly and innately a religion of peace, moderation, and tolerance. I believe this based on my readings of the Qur'an and Hadith, and based upon my experience living in Muslim countries when my dad was serving in the US Army during my childhood (and based upon my experiences travelling there as an adult).

My "end goal" of sticking my nose into this thread is not to convince you of anything, I just want it to be the case that if a reader happens to come across this thread and he begins to read the anti-Islamic points of view presented, he should also see the pro-Islamic viewpoint. 

It saddens me that ignorance and laziness on the part of a few people who have more power than they should have tainted the religion that I love and practice in the eyes of a large percentage of the world.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course the people willing to have a difficult conversation represent the minority. How many people do you think have the mental faculty or education to open a book and read, learn, and express rational arguments clearly? Not that many!

Of course I would love to deflect criticism from Islam- I love Islam! How would I not want to? But I am not here deflecting anything saying "LEAVE ISLAM ALONE." I did not do that. Instead I answered the criticism leveled against it in as rational and moderate a way as I could. 

I have done this in person and on the internet more than a few times.





But as I initially said, the productivity in this particular facet of our discussion has, I feel, diminished. 

I respect your viewpoint and its validity, though I personally disagree with the bulk of it.

I hope that any future reader of this thread will at least gain an awareness of both sides and practices moderation when dealing with people who are members of either school of thought.


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## Mik3D23 (May 17, 2014)

Svava said:


> If you think the world would be better without religion I would disagree on the grounds that I do not think that human nature is good enough to prevent inhuman acts. I read "Lord of the Flies" in middle school and tend to agree with what I perceive the author's viewpoint to be; in a natural state without law, humans will likely behave inhumanely.



You do not need religion for people to be moral. This has been shown to be true time and time again. One could even argue the contrary; that religion tends to cause more amorality than morality, since instead of progressing, people tend to just want to keep the same set of rules set in place 2000 years ago (along with distorting the text to suit their own needs). People also tend to cling to the idea that their religion is the right one, and that all others are wrong. Which perpetuates the idea that followers of other religions are lesser people, and as such should not be granted the same rights and protection as followers of their own religion.

Crime and inhuman acts are not caused by a lack of religion. They are caused mostly by environmental factors; such as their upbringing, being impoverished, lack of education, etc.


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## Svava (May 17, 2014)

Mik3D23 said:


> You do not need religion for people to be moral. This has been shown to be true time and time again. One could even argue the contrary; that religion tends to cause more amorality than morality, since instead of progressing, people tend to just want to keep the same set of rules set in place 2000 years ago (along with distorting the text to suit their own needs). People also tend to cling to the idea that their religion is the right one, and that all others are wrong. Which perpetuates the idea that followers of other religions are lesser people, and as such should not be granted the same rights and protection as followers of their own religion.
> 
> Crime and inhuman acts are not caused by a lack of religion. They are caused mostly by environmental factors; such as their upbringing, being impoverished, lack of education, etc.



I'm not postulating that you NEED religion in order for morality to exist, I'm saying I don't think the world would be better off without religion.

I agree with you that environmental factors are the biggest player in determining a person's moral state, but I don't think that a world without religion would have fewer bad people per se, just different motivations.

An absence of religion does not mean an influx of good parenting and healthy upbringing unfortunately xD


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## flint757 (May 17, 2014)

Svava said:


> Granted, there are individual lines and verses which, if taken out of context, could convince the reader that extreme and unacceptable action should be taken. While I am educated enough to understand context and tone, I will admit that there are a bulk of people who are not so fortunate and would more easily tempted to pick up their torches and pitchforks.



There's your answer man. Many people across the world are, simply put, uneducated and as such don't understand the context of what they are reading, if what you say is in fact true. You cannot divorce these people from your faith though, anymore than a Christian could divorce Westboro as an example. That is a fallacy. A religion only exists because it has followers. You cannot claim some followers are not true followers anymore than they could say the same about yourself. The 'No true Scotsman' fallacy rarely applies to any situation. Christians also try to say this about each sect (ie Catholics towards Protestants and vice versa). The relevance of their decisions is that they choose to act because of Islam. Whether you agree with their motivations is honestly moot.

Uneducated people and people who latch on to a movement as an attempt for social change or economic progress tend to be the larger problem. They sometimes either don't understand or don't care why they are doing something as long as it coincides with what they wish to achieve.

You overestimate peoples reading comprehension, though, by quite a bit. As an example, if Christians had good reading comprehension they'd realize that the Christian bible contradicts itself constantly and that they violate the most basic laws of their own faith daily. The old testament and new testament are in direct conflict with each other and yet even though people claim to be strictly followers of Jesus most do not even kind of represent the tenets that he supposedly proposed. This all occurs in a part of the world where everyone has an education mind you. In parts of the world where education is not as guaranteed it really isn't hard to believe that people just wouldn't see the difference. I talk to people all the time who do not understand context and they were literally taught about it in school.

People also tend to flock to leaders (reverends, pastors, preachers, etc.) so if someone is telling them something is said in their holy book by someone of higher authority people with even a high level of education tend to go with what they say over what they know to be true. Those who lack that same education are even more likely to just 'go with the flow' of the highest authority. This doesn't take into account the hostility in most faiths towards people of other faiths or people who dissent. Many religions effectively muzzle their opposition through fear creating a false truth through lack of debate. 

Islam may in fact be above that and I don't have the credentials to say otherwise, but faith and religion are built on its leaders and followers, not the words they may in fact be trying to convey.

I have a hard time believing any of the Abrahamic faiths are peaceful though, considering how much violence is committed in the name of them. You don't here about these things from Buddhists or Sikh followers as an example.



Svava said:


> If you think the world would be better without religion I would disagree on the grounds that I do not think that human nature is good enough to prevent inhuman acts. I read "Lord of the Flies" in middle school and tend to agree with what I perceive the author's viewpoint to be; in a natural state without law, humans will likely behave inhumanely.



I couldn't disagree more. We are more than capable of being descent human being without religion. Lord of the Flies was also about a lack of a civilized society and primate politics. It is a dystopian novel that has no actual bearing on reality.

We have laws to prevent people from treating others unfairly, religion is not a necessary component. TBH in most of the civilized world I don't even think many people are capable of violence. I know I'm not for the most part. I'll defend myself and my family if/when needed, but I don't like committing acts of violence for violence sake (excluding for sport that is).



Svava said:


> I'm not postulating that you NEED religion in order for morality to exist, I'm saying I don't think the world would be better off without religion.
> 
> I agree with you that environmental factors are the biggest player in determining a person's moral state, but I don't think that a world without religion would have fewer bad people per se, just different motivations.
> 
> An absence of religion does not mean an influx of good parenting and healthy upbringing unfortunately xD



This I mostly agree with. People who wish to act violently will do so whether or not religion is present, they'll just have a new excuse/reason. That being said, recruiting from the helpless masses without religion _would_ in fact be more difficult. Religion at it's core, in most faiths, is designed to minimize dissension. Religion also serves as an easy way to gather people to a cause with near minimal effort. Without religion, extremists IMO would have a much harder time getting people on board with their ideas. Religion is a unifying force. Not that any of this is particularly relevant considering religion is definitely not going anywhere. Too many are indoctrinated on a daily basis for that to ever happen.


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