# Alt picking from wrist or arm??



## meteor685 (Jan 23, 2015)

i read on threads different stuff, so i figured i wud ask here


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## starslight (Jan 23, 2015)

It's been done well both ways. Do what feels comfortable.


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## Maniacal (Jan 23, 2015)

Wrist all the way.


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## vansinn (Jan 23, 2015)

I use the underarm muscle to support the wrist for fast precise picking; the actual picking technique comes from wrist and finger twitches.
My overarm muscles serves partially for locking the underarm, partially to provide a jittery spasm-like motion to the underarm.
When I forget to keep my arms trained, my action-packed picking goes down..


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## JeremyRodriguez5544998 (Feb 5, 2015)

I have read that when picking on a single string you should use wrist motion (and the finger twitching motion that somebody mentioned earlier in this thread). And you use your forearm to switch strings. This advice has actually improved my playing quite a bit. The only issue I have right now is finding the proper position to hold the pick, but my motions are so much better than ever!

Also, that forearm explanation made my sweep picking killer! When you use your elbow as a pivot point, you will become a massive sweep picking master!


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## fantom (Feb 5, 2015)

I vote wrist unless you intentionally want to pick all of the strings (campfire guitar style). You can definitely use only your wrist for 2-3 string chords. It's far easier to control your motion that way. Control means better timing. You also move less mass, so you are conserving energy. Conserving energy means longer endurance.



JeremyRodriguez5544998 said:


> The only issue I have right now is finding the proper position to hold the pick, but my motions are so much better than ever!


Regarding picking position, I usually try to keep the pick flat, but it ends up angled slightly. Just listen to your amp. If you hear the pick scratching or popping a lot, you need to adjust the angle or depth of the pick on the string.


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## JeremyRodriguez5544998 (Feb 6, 2015)

fantom said:


> I vote wrist unless you intentionally want to pick all of the strings (campfire guitar style). You can definitely use only your wrist for 2-3 string chords. It's far easier to control your motion that way. Control means better timing. You also move less mass, so you are conserving energy. Conserving energy means longer endurance.
> 
> 
> Regarding picking position, I usually try to keep the pick flat, but it ends up angled slightly. Just listen to your amp. If you hear the pick scratching or popping a lot, you need to adjust the angle or depth of the pick on the string.



This is definitely a great way to describe it!

And as far as the pick position my sound comes out crisp and clear. I am just trying to figure out a better grip for the picking hand so I could feel a little more comfortable. Not sure how to explain the way I grip it right now.


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## starslight (Feb 6, 2015)

This is relevant and fun:


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## redstone (Feb 6, 2015)

I don't master all types of alt picking but I'll show you the 3 main techniques for advanced playing, the last one has the best potential, though it's the one I practiced the least. Pronosupination comes from the elbow.



"Wrist picking" is a label for everything that is not based on elbow flexion/extension, which includes many different useful and useless strategies. So answering wrist picking is not informative at all.


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## dh848 (Feb 7, 2015)

The most efficient way of playing involves moving as little as possible to play what you want to. Moving the shoulder moves the entire arm, moving the elbow moves the forearm, moving the wrist just moves the hand. You will play with the most dexterity and least energy by moving the wrist. You can make anything work though. Les Paul for example broke his elbow horribly and played with a fused elbow at 90 degrees.

And not to nit pick but pronosupination is a forearm motion (radius twisting around the ulna). It uses the same muscle groups as flexing and extending the wrist so do whichever is most comfortable.


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## redstone (Feb 7, 2015)

Whatever, forearm motions come from the elbow.

Even though pronosupination and wrist flexion/extension share the same muscle groups, except for biceps brachii, they don't share any muscle and don't have the same picking functions. They are neither permutable nor equivalent. Group-wise, they can be blended by synchronising or opposing them (pronation+flexion or pronation+extension).


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## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 7, 2015)

I"ve struggled with this myself. There are so many really great players using all different kinds of techniques - zack wylde for example seems like he's all arm.

I use both, but currently working on being better wrist picker. When playing standing up, if your arm/guitar is not in the right spot, arm picking becomes more difficult.


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## GraemeH (Feb 7, 2015)

Finger + thumb for articulation purposes (so leads, not rhythm).
Your fingers have as many joints in them than the rest of your arm combined (wrist+elbow+shoulder) and they're smaller and lower mass so you have less momentum to overcome when changing direction, so I find I have finer control over the attitude of the pick.
Not sure what others call it, circular picking? Scalpel picking?
Bringing in more of the wrist to play down onto the string towards the body when I want to strike the string more percussively and get the attack you get from a hard pick/smacking the string so hard it bounces off the frets, rake mutes etc.

But yeah whatever you've practised with most will be best for you, if there was one better way then everyone would do it.


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## redstone (Feb 7, 2015)

GraemeH said:


> if there was one better way then everyone would do it.



People don't do the right thing just because it works. If everyone would do the right thing, you would all be monster players, I would throw the theory of evolution into a volcano and become a priest of Djod.




VBCheeseGrater said:


> zack wylde for example seems like he's all arm.




Zakk's mostly all pronosupination and forearm flexion/extension, so he qualifies as an "all forearm" player but not an "all forearm flexion/extension". Now his technique slipped and he became a good example of a diving pronation technique with too much postural supination, like he was trying to compensate for his big old exhausted fatty arms. That posture and terrible muscle/weight ratio makes consecutive wrist flexions too exhausting so he frequently tense up and go berzerk with his forearm flexion/extension. But originally he's a pronosupinater who was also able to change strings with the wrist http://youtu.be/6s4011OkrDE?t=18m27s


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## octatoan (Feb 7, 2015)

redstone, where can I learn more about this? I've almost exclusively been a fingerpicker/tapper until now, and I'm keen to learn to pick properly, if at all (economy of motion etc etc).


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## redstone (Feb 8, 2015)

No idea, nowhere I'm afraid, I don't teach for a living and never heard of someone else who know those things. Unless I'm swamped with requests I don't plan to make proper tutorials before finalizing other projects, sorry octa.


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## octatoan (Feb 8, 2015)

From where can I learn the kinesiology etc. involved? I'm sort of scientifically-minded and would enjoy working it out myself like I think you did too.


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## HumanFuseBen (Feb 8, 2015)

I really do think that whatever method you use, if you stick with it, you'll get good at it. Just make sure you're relaxed and that you aren't going to hurt yourself. 

I'm a wrist dude 90% of the time, with a little elbow here and there. Buz from unearth is lethal using just his finger joints. Different strokes!


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## karjim (Feb 8, 2015)

Just start to watch Cracking The Code on Youtube and it will explose at your face: A New World.
Btw the wrist is the key but redstone is right there is a big theory behind and a lot of elite players play with a bad technique compensated with a genius adaptation and tricks. Best exemple: Yngwie. 
Still the best since 1986 Paul Gilbert, this is the way to achieve hyper speed with zero effort. Look at his student


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## redstone (Feb 8, 2015)

Cracking the Code is incomplete and partially wrong, so be careful with that stuff.



octatoan said:


> From where can I learn the kinesiology etc. involved? I'm sort of scientifically-minded and would enjoy working it out myself like I think you did too.



It's just about knowing your articulations, the path of your pick, and thinking speed in term of gesture frequency. I'll spare you some time and give you the basics.

Outside and inside picking imply to skip at least one string, whether it is the string you aim for or the one you leave.




When you chain up inside/outside picking, your skipping frequency is equal to your striking frequency. Stroke, skip, stroke, skip. You need to use a pendular technique that will keep your pick above the strings between each stroke.




There's no single motion that can handle all the skipping frequency by itself, even rotational motions like pronosupination. In order to get a high skipping frequency, you need to divide that task between two motions.




Those don't work :




Few words about changing strings..

The way you handle the string changing frequency depends on the motions you choose to build your pendulum, if you go upward or downward, how far you "travel". It's safe to say that most generally, the main motion can also handle the string changing frequency except when skipping too many strings or dealing with its specific weaknesses, but I can't elaborate here. This was the "what to", but there's also the "how to" (learn quickly).


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## octatoan (Feb 8, 2015)

Wow, thanks. 

So, uh, where can I learn the "how to"? I mean, how did you learn all this? Books?


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## Maniacal (Feb 9, 2015)

What part of cracking the code do you think is wrong?


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## redstone (Feb 9, 2015)

About everything but the fact that we have to "slant" as he says the path of the pick to skip strings. Which's a first good step.

Troy is essentially an all-forearm player. He changes strings with forearm flexion/extension but strikes and skips with pronosupination only.

Since pronosupination radius is too high to rise above the string plane between every stroke, Troy needs to choose, by slanting his hand in a way or the other (which is postural pronosupination), between the ability to handle either downward inside and upward outside picking, or downward outside and upward inside picking. 

His technique is like a V-engine with only one piston for two cylenders. Troy ignores that we can add another piston and assumes that all good players have one piston.

Anyways, that is enough for 3nps and 2nps, but not 1nps. Changing the slant angle between each strokes consists in an extreme pronosupination motion that doesn't work. A long time ago I thought pronosupination could handle 1nps alone, or mostly alone, this cost me many years of severe tendinosis and depression. Troy is on the right track but he needs to test the limits of his hypothesis and try more techniques to improve his proprioceptive awareness.




octatoan said:


> So, uh, where can I learn the "how to"? I mean, how did you learn all this? Books?



My how-to is lot of trials and lot of errors...


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## Maniacal (Feb 9, 2015)

Interesting. I would say slanting to skip strings is the one thing I wouldn't agree with


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## redstone (Feb 9, 2015)

Slanting is not necessary below a frequency of 5 skips per second, one vertical motion might be enough. When the main picking motion is totally parallel to the strings plane, it's the only resort.

Above 5 skips it is necessary to slant a bit, in a way or the other, but it's not something always visually noticable, especially as a 10° angle can do the job. The diving downstroke slant is visually obvious, whereas the rising downstroke slant can look horizontal, actually, the more you slant that way and the more it looks horizontal (ex. Shawn Lane)


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## karjim (Feb 10, 2015)

I've noticed Troy made exaggerated movements to invert the slant of his pick. He almost break his wrist to downward. But he seems really ok with that considering he can nail Eric Johnson's hybrid stuffs such as Meola straight alt pick. 
He made a cool job explaining the weird Yngwie technique, I've never understood before why his phrasing was so unusual. I didn't realize all the tricks he has to eliminate the pendulum system.


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## redstone (Feb 10, 2015)

Yngwie doesn't play like Troy ; he generally uses the wrist flexion/extension as a "2nd piston" instead of changing the slant angle. But in an incomplete, undertrained way.

Let's take

Down-Up-Down
------------------Up-Down-Up 

Troy : 

-----------diving pronation
-----------rising supination
extended diving pronation (reverses the slant angle)
-----------diving supination
-----------rising pronation
-----------diving supination

Yngwie : 

diving pronation
rising supination
diving pronation + rising wrist extension
rising supination + diving wrist flexion
diving pronation
rising supination


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## thatguyupthere (Feb 12, 2015)

I do it with my thumb and index finger + wrist. I find I get more versatility/ flexibility like that.


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## DanieleSpadavecchia (Feb 15, 2015)

One of the most important things to realize is that wrist flexibility and agility have to be fully developed. Using some finger motion to adjust the pick should help in creating different string attacks and angles to have a better tone. The forearm or shoulder movements should only be passive following the wrist to avoid tension that would accumulate instead by locking them.

Imagine that your wrist is the link between shoulder/arm and fingers.
Movement of wrist should be developed in different ways:
-across six strings (and later groups of strings like the first 3 or 4) for flexibility and relaxation
-on one string at the time for speed and dexterity
-on string crossing after you get six/single string worked out

Keep in mind two important things:
-work more on upstroke exercising because we are naturally weaker by having to fight gravity
-always start your strokes by first touching/resting the string you are going to pick, so you are not hitting from a distance but plucking it instead


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## Patrick Roberge (Feb 15, 2015)

Hello All,

For the average, the wrist is doing the job on the string and the arm is doing the job to change from string to string. But, there is no perfect science cause there are so many incredible guitarist that are going it differently. I belive to start with the technique that make you feel the more confortable. I suggest to try all of them, you'll find that seem more naturel for you.


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