# 8 strings guitar / 5 string bass relationship



## 4815162342 (Nov 11, 2012)

Long story short I want to find out how possible it is to have standard tuned 8 / 5 string instruments sounding clear and defined alongside each other. I love my Schecter C-8 Blackjack but sometimes I feel like it's just too much bass on the guitar side. Can anyone with good knowledge of music, theory, amps and etc clear this up and make me appreciate this mix a bit more? Even when bands use 8 strings properly mixed my brain is telling me that the bass is supposed to be handling those low end duties. I'd love to hear someone elaborate on the subject and dive into info about frequencies and how bass/guitars function differently when it comes to their pickups and amps. Thanks!


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## Bigfan (Nov 11, 2012)

4815162342 said:


> I love my Schecter C-8 Blackjack but sometimes I feel like it's just too much bass on the guitar side.Thanks!



EQ out some of the bass?


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## goldsteinat0r (Nov 11, 2012)

I've thought a ton about this myself. I think in a lot of cases the bass will just double the guitar in the same octave (which is EQ'd with mostly high mids I guess), with a fat, distorted bass tone. The way a bass and a bass rig are built and designed to sound, they're going to provide a ton of beef to the guitar, even if they're playing the exact same notes. The bass is just designed for that, where a guitar is stretching the limits by being that territory, so too much low end will sound like poo.


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## Brill (Nov 11, 2012)

The Purpose of both of these instrument is to use the Extended range + its regular range. So using all the strings. So you should be able to just make different Tones for each instrument, that both sound unique from each other but still blend, and have them go well together. 
You could also see what frequencys each instrument takes up and what each instrument doesnt use, and adjust the intruments accordingly.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 11, 2012)

I've often wondered about this, especially as it's such a common sound in the "Recording studio" section.

Really thin low tuned guitar sound + big bass guitar sound.

By having such a low tuning and reaching lower into common frequency areas reserved for bass guitar, kick drum and possibly low toms, the 8 string guitar requires some careful frequency analysis in order to carve a niche for it in the mix.

I've not got one or mixed one, so cannot say with any experience how best to deal with low frequency competition, especially with the iphone earbuds being the most popular way to listen to music (NO bass at all!!!).


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## iron blast (Nov 12, 2012)

Meshuggah do this very well


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## Winspear (Nov 12, 2012)

I think scooped bass really helps and sounds awesome this way. Let the guitar do the talking in the mids and low mids, and let bass guitar take care of the low end. Find a nice frequency for the attack on the bass that you can also remove from the guitar, making both sound better and the bass guitar cut through more. 
The frequency spectrum low to high might look like this:
Bass guitar (sub)
Bass guitar (low)
Guitar (low mid)
Guitar (high mid)
Bass guitar (small peak around 1.5k)
Guitar (highs above 1.5k)

Let's you keep much more low end in the guitars than working with unscooped bass.


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## petervindel (Nov 12, 2012)

Glad you started this topic as I've been wondering about this myself. 
What is a good bass to tune in F# to accompany an 8-stringer? 
Is the Warwick Corvette Pro a good option? 
What do you guys recommend?


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## Winspear (Nov 12, 2012)

A 35" or 37" bass with a 166 gauge from Circle K strings  At that pricerange I do believe you can get one of the cheaper 37" Dingwalls!


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## GenghisCoyne (Nov 12, 2012)

petervindel said:


> Glad you started this topic as I've been wondering about this myself.
> What is a good bass to tune in F# to accompany an 8-stringer?
> Is the Warwick Corvette Pro a good option?
> What do you guys recommend?



any bass with a 35 inch or greater scale will feel at least ok. the real problem with super low bass tunings is processing the signal. you need real quality amplification/ processing to make anything lower than around A (in my limited experience at least) audible in a mix


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## petervindel (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanx for the feedback. 
We actually tune in A as well as F#. 
From what I have read on this forum, it seems like it would be better to tune in unison when playing in F#. 
And tune lower when playing in A. 

I am a guitarist, with little knowledge on metal basses... 
Is the Warwick Corvette Pro considered a good option? 
There is one for sale here in Norway at an acceptible price.


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## iron blast (Nov 13, 2012)

I would deff go for that corvette man just get it setup with some circle k strings if you plan on tuning in low F#. MY Ampeg handles low F# fine So MY assumption is that as long as you have a decent 4x10 and proper powered bass head you'll be fine.


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## petervindel (Nov 13, 2012)

iron blast said:


> I would deff go for that corvette man just get it setup with some circle k strings if you plan on tuning in low F#. MY Ampeg handles low F# fine So MY assumption is that as long as you have a decent 4x10 and proper powered bass head you'll be fine.



What about plugging into the Mac and using plugins to get the bass sound. 
Will that work in low F#, or do I have to run it through a cabinet the traditional way?


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## Winspear (Nov 13, 2012)

I've only tried it with plugins - Cutting in the mix becomes and issue, though the CK string helps a lot - I can't imagine a real amp is any harder to use.
F# unison and A octave down is good to me. Though I do F# octave down to. If I were playing in drop E on 8 string, I would just play bass in AEADG.


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## cGoEcYk (Nov 13, 2012)

I write on a 7 string with a low F# and keep my 5 string bass in standard. Anything below B for me (call me old school) is too low/muddy on bass. I am kind of obsessed with having a clear, articulate tone on bass. I use a 35" scale kind of hi-fi bass,bright hex core strings (DR Lo-Rider steels), "detailed" sounding cabs.

I like to cut lows on everything. When you are already tuned low and add all of the instruments together the low end fills in sufficiently (IMO) but you can also actually hear things.

Gonna throw out another opinion- I am all about low mids (100-250 Hz) on bass and cutting the lowest lows, but then raising the master volume a little higher. Push the mids low mids, if you want to be heard and boom in the right part of the mix. Here is an example of the tone I use for metal.


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## knuckle_head (Nov 14, 2012)

GenghisCoyne said:


> any bass with a 35 inch or greater scale will feel at least ok. the real problem with super low bass tunings is processing the signal. you need real quality amplification/ processing to make anything lower than around A (in my limited experience at least) audible in a mix



I've spent some time with this - certainly a longer scale bass will let you take advantage of thinner strings and bring more clarity to the instrument but the better things to do are the lesser expensive things.

Most of the issues you run in to on bass are a result of inconsistent string output - glaring issue in the studio where going direct is half if not all of your sound.

You should not count on a rig for recording except for 'flavor' - let the DI/line feed carry your sound. A line feed is better capable of carrying the full spectrum, where a rig will not give you anything appreciable below 50 Hz.

This will seem a self-serving statement, but get balanced tension strings. This evens out the output from string to string and makes the bass easier to play. If you use piezos or midi this will help immeasurably as well.


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## GenghisCoyne (Nov 17, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> I've spent some time with this - certainly a longer scale bass will let you take advantage of thinner strings and bring more clarity to the instrument but the better things to do are the lesser expensive things.
> 
> Most of the issues you run in to on bass are a result of inconsistent string output - glaring issue in the studio where going direct is half if not all of your sound.
> 
> ...



prepare your inbox for a balance question sir....


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## JoshBassistCT (Nov 21, 2012)

My guitarists use 8 strings in F#, I use a 5 string in B. using the octave F# on the bass in unison with the F# on the guitar sounds way better overall, but if you're going to go with an F# on your bass make sure that you use a good amp/cabinet set up.


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## Zeetwig (Nov 21, 2012)

Drooping in some general questions here, sorry OP



GenghisCoyne said:


> any bass with a 35 inch or greater scale will feel at least ok. the real problem with super low bass tunings is processing the signal. you need real quality amplification/ processing to make anything lower than around A (in my limited experience at least) audible in a mix



So a normal 34" won't do? How much does that one inch matter?



iron blast said:


> ...MY assumption is that as long as you have a decent 4x10 and proper powered bass head you'll be fine.



Which is most important: speaker size or speaker number (with speaker I mean each cone/element, not the entire cab)? I've heard somewhere that a lot of small radius speakers are better than a few big ones.



EtherealEntity said:


> I've only tried it with plugins - Cutting in the mix becomes and issue, though the CK string helps a lot - I can't imagine a real amp is any harder to use.
> F# unison and A octave down is good to me. Though I do F# octave down to. If I were playing in drop E on 8 string, I would just play bass in AEADG.



If you do tune the bass down to around F-G and record 100% DI, which frequencies should you cut and which should you keep to get a good low end and sub, but also make the bass somewhat audible in the higher frequencies (a little grit, picking noise and top end)?


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## facepalm66 (Nov 22, 2012)

Normal Speakers do not provide a normal sound below ~55Hz, so you'll have to customize it, and thicker string only will provide tension, but the sound will be flappy, and you will be having hard time hearing it anyway, you'll rather feel it than hear it (rumble in the belly). 
In addition to that, faster stuff will be almost impossible to play
Tested.
So playing in the same octave actually will sound heavier than an octave below, more confortable and cheaper. Benefits only. 
And overall, bass brings different frequencies than guitar, even in the same octave, so you are just playing a baritone guitar with some beefy low end, and that's all.
(That's why the bass is essential on the 8's)


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## ixlramp (Nov 22, 2012)

petervindel said:


> From what I have read on this forum, it seems like it would be better to tune in unison when playing in F#.


 Hey don't let other people's subjective opinions put you off octave-down F#, you might love the way it sounds. Also i highly recommend Circle K Strings for tuning that low.

Zeetwig: 34" scale is fine, the extra inch helps but is not essential. Quality of bass and string can more than compensate (try Circle Ks they are made to be super flexible and clear).


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## Zeetwig (Nov 23, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> ...
> Zeetwig: 34" scale is fine, the extra inch helps but is not essential. Quality of bass and string can more than compensate (try Circle Ks they are made to be super flexible and clear).



Ok great!  I already have a 34" 5-string but intend to buy a 6-string, and one of them need to be tuned down to G, and I would like to keep the 6 in original tuning for obvious reasons


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## ixlramp (Nov 23, 2012)

Your new 6 string would be the ideal one to tune lower as 6 string basses and their necks are inherently stronger and more massive, you could also then choose a 35" to help even more. 35" helps tone significantly for low strings so is a very good idea when buying a new bass.


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## facepalm66 (Nov 23, 2012)

You are missing the point: the most importaint thing is BY ALL MEANS NOT THE GUITAR. 
It's the amplification. Withouth decent amplification you can have the most awesome guitar in the universe and above it, and still you won't get a decent sound.

So in order to get a low G, F# or whatever tuning you want, your AMP must be cabaple of handling such low frequencies.

Mind that most of the amps have a build - in low pass filter, so everything below 40Hz is cut.

In addition to that, remember, that low tunes soak up tons of 'sound power' of overall mix.

And by saying that 'ignore those suggestions and facts from stopping you from using the tuning' is just plain stupidity, becouse you can be as optimistic as you want, facts are facts, and i can bet my hause that you won't get a nice sound, even if you invest thousands of Cash in the custom build.


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## Zeetwig (Nov 23, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> Your new 6 string would be the ideal one to tune lower as 6 string basses and their necks are inherently stronger and more massive, you could also then choose a 35" to help even more. 35" helps tone significantly for low strings so is a very good idea when buying a new bass.



However, if I tune the 6 to G then the highest string will be a G#, which is just a semitone above the G on a normal-tuned 5 string. Thus I would have two basses with about the same range in the higher registers, which feels a bit like wasting the potential of the 6 string to me... 



facepalm66 said:


> You are missing the point: the most importaint thing is BY ALL MEANS NOT THE GUITAR.
> It's the amplification. Withouth decent amplification you can have the most awesome guitar in the universe and above it, and still you won't get a decent sound.
> 
> So in order to get a low G, F# or whatever tuning you want, your AMP must be cabaple of handling such low frequencies.
> ...



Ok so what kind of amplification would you recommend? Number and size on the elements, wattage and so on (I know rather little about amplification in general so please bear with me).

Also, what would you recommend EQ and effects-wise when recording bass tuned that low DI? To prevent if from soaking up too much "sound power" and conflicting with guitars, kick drums and floor toms? What would a good EQ curve look like in order to avoid frequency conflicts and to get both the low end and a little string noise and top buzz (both with and without some distortion/overdrive)?


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## facepalm66 (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm not sure about everything, but first of all you'll have to remove or custom make the amp/head, for the low pass filter NOT to cut the ~40hz cap. 

4x12 with cab and a tube head should do, but im not sure about the actaual vibrations of the membrane of the speaker(s)

About the soaking thing i have no idea how to get rid of it, but i know for sure that i'll soak up the power

The EQ, effect and all the other stuff you've mentioned is almost impossible to tell, you need to plug this thing and tweak stuff 'till it will sound right (but imho it will not, as i have stated before)

I'm not sure how it'd even sound, since human ear has some strugglingdto do catching up such low frequencies.


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## Zeetwig (Nov 23, 2012)

I'll guess I just have to try it and then we'll see  It's still quite a bit ahead in time, but when I'm there and have tested it I can create a thread and tell you how the results were (if someone else hasn't already done it - which someone should have by now  ).

Regarding speakers: I think that I've heard somewhere that more elements with smaller radius is better than fewer elements with bigger radiuses... what do you think of this?


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## knuckle_head (Nov 23, 2012)

The only way for any enclosure to reproduce extreme lows to to be designed for it - more drivers just means more of the same sound the speakers would produce anyway (more volume) and not necessarily more lows specifically.

Yes you can get good low end reproduction from multiple smaller drivers - but only if the enclosures themselves are designed to do it.


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## Zeetwig (Nov 23, 2012)

Ok so when recording a subwoofer of some sort would be an ideal complement to the normal speakers?




Btw sorry OP/4815162342 for semi-hijacking the thread :S It wasn't my intention


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## ixlramp (Nov 24, 2012)

Zeetwig said:


> However, if I tune the 6 to G then the highest string will be a G#, which is just a semitone above the G on a normal-tuned 5 string. Thus I would have two basses with about the same range in the higher registers, which feels a bit like wasting the potential of the 6 string to me...


 Yep good point. So i would tune the 5 to EADGC or higher.


Zeetwig said:


> Ok so when recording a subwoofer of some sort would be an ideal complement to the normal speakers?


knuckle_head has suggested elsewhere that mostly DI plus a miked amp for a little flavour is the way to go for ultra low notes, so it seems to me no special equipment is needed for studio work.


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## Zeetwig (Nov 24, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> Yep good point. So i would tune the 5 to EADGC or higher.
> ...



 I haven't thought of that, but that's a great idea! And then if I want an open B string to match normal-tuned 7-strings I can just drop the 6-string one semitone.

What would be a good gauge to use for the 6-string tuned G-G# (that should be droppable to F#-G), and for the 5-string tuned E-C? I think I have .130s or .135s on the 5-string atm.


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## ixlramp (Nov 24, 2012)

Hmmm ... or perhaps you might like to tune the 5 string to F Bb Eb Ab Db to match the high strings of the 6 string.

You can use this tension chart to design or choose a string set http://circlekstrings.com/CKSIMAGES/CircleKtensionChart.pdf
The tension values are for a 34" scale, for a 35" scale multiply by 1.06.
Very roughly, 30 pounds is extra light tension and a recommended minimum. 40 pounds is medium tension. 50+ pounds is heavy.

If you know the gauges that are on your bass you can try retuning a string until the tension feels right, then refer to the tension chart to see what that ideal tension is, then choose a gauge that gives you that tension in the new tuning.

Circle K Strings have 'balanced tension' sets (all strings at equal tension) for every semitone increment of pitch so there will be sets for G-G#, E-C or F-Db etc. There are also single strings at no cost penalty.

Alternatively for a local source Pyramid of Europe sell some big strings (.150 .160 .170 .175) here http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/advanced_search_result.php/manufacturers_id/22/categories_id/1000256/cPath/397_66_100_1000256/search_in_categories/1/search_in_manufacturers/1?osCsid=3gapeet9ijgnjiql9nljoc0604 although i suspect Circle Ks may be the better designed string for very low tunings.


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## ixlramp (Nov 25, 2012)

facepalm66 said:


> So in order to get a low G, F# or whatever tuning you want, your AMP must be cabaple of handling such low frequencies.
> 
> Mind that most of the amps have a build - in low pass filter, so everything below 40Hz is cut.





facepalm66 said:


> first of all you'll have to remove or custom make the amp/head, for the low pass filter NOT to cut the ~40hz cap.
> ...........................
> I'm not sure how it'd even sound, since human ear has some strugglingdto do catching up such low frequencies.


Most of the energy and tone of a bass note is in the 2nd and higher harmonics, so reproducing the fundamental tone is not necessary. A B string has a fundametal tone of 31Hz but sounds good through an average amp despite the fundamental not being reproduced.
An F# string has the 2nd harmonic at 46Hz so all that is needed is reasonable sound reproduction down to 46Hz.
Anyway this is only relevant to amps, for such low tunings DI or mostly DI is a way around this.

The fact that human hearing starts to fail at around 20Hz is irrelevant for the same reason, hearing the fundamental tone is not important.

A few years ago i files my nut out to .165 and used an F# string, it sounded great even through my 10" practice amp. Whether 8 string guitar plus octave down bass can sound good is down to careful songwriting and EQ / mixing, there is nothing about that setup that inherently sounds bad, that's why i wrote it is a case of subjective taste.
I suspect that many people's experience of low G or F# is from detuning a .135 or .145 which will be extremely under tensioned and inevitably sound bad. A big, clear, flexible string with good tension will have much more definition to the sound.

There are bass string samples down to G#00 13Hz here http://garrygoodman.com/round_wound_strings.htm


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## Winspear (Nov 27, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> I suspect that many people's experience of low G or F# is from detuning a .135 or .145 which will be extremely under tensioned and inevitably sound bad. A big, clear, flexible string with good tension will have much more definition to the sound.



So so true! It's like the guitarists that think below drop D is silly because they've only tried it with 9-42 haha.

My 35" G 166 sounds great - but it's dull compared to the other strings. I guess that's the same as the whole guitar problem (needing baritone scales for thick strings etc). Any idea where that starts to taper off?
Looking at tensions I'm convinced I want a Knuckle (39") for F, but then I listen to one of my favourite bassists (Yves Carbonne) tuning to B octave down on 34"!


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## Zeetwig (Nov 27, 2012)

There is no harm in trying it  Just one thing: do normal bass tuning pegs cope with strings that think, or do they need to be widened? How does one do that, or is it a job for a tech?


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## abandonist (Nov 27, 2012)

You can use a drill with a titanium bit. It may not be the most professional thing in the world, but it'll get the job done - and no one'll notice unless they're right up on it.


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## Winspear (Nov 27, 2012)

I can't fit my 166 into the tuning peg HOLE. It's tapered, but sealed off with this rubber coating which is kinda thick. 
I filled the slot down a little to be able to push the string into there - it just sits sideways in the slot rather than going down into the hole. No problem


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## jazz_munkyy (Nov 28, 2012)

WATCH IT this might help


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## knuckle_head (Nov 29, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> I can't fit my 166 into the tuning peg HOLE. It's tapered, but sealed off with this rubber coating which is kinda thick.
> I filled the slot down a little to be able to push the string into there - it just sits sideways in the slot rather than going down into the hole. No problem



That coating is meant to be shaved off where the wire is to fit into the tuning post - and JUST where it enters the post. If there is a little bit to hold the winds from unravelling then that shrink wrap has done its job.


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## The Reverend (Nov 29, 2012)

Isn't there some nonsense about how a bass guitar is meant to produce fundamentals, while guitars pick up the overtones, thus creating two very different sounds, even if they're tuned in unison?


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## knuckle_head (Nov 30, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Isn't there some nonsense about how a bass guitar is meant to produce fundamentals, while guitars pick up the overtones, thus creating two very different sounds, even if they're tuned in unison?



The difference is in the timbre - if the same frequency is executed on a 34" scale bass with a .094 string vs a 29" scale guitar using a .070 there will be a significant sonic difference.

How it sits in a mix then becomes a matter of letting or assigning which carry what parts of the spectrum using band pass eq-ing and such.


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