# Female guitarists on Only Fans. Not sure if it is a good or bad thing....



## Hollowway (Jun 26, 2022)

There's a guitarist that I follow online, and am a fan of, and she recently started an onlyfans account, where she'll be posting what she describes as sleazy hot, revealing, content without limitation. I know of a few women musicians who have opened onlyfans accounts, and some of them say it's non-nude, and more of a patreon level account. When this particular guitarist opened her account, and wrote that, I was bummed. But then I wondered WHY I was bummed, and if that was a patriarchal, Puritanistic reaction. On the one hand, I'd love for her to be respected for her actual playing, and would love for her to be able to make a living with it, and worry that she won't be taken seriously if she does this. On the other, I shouldn't judge, I shouldn't want her to limit her income, because it's tough to be a musician. And what she does on there really has no bearing on her ability to make good music.

What do you guys think?


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## MrWulf (Jun 26, 2022)

OnlyFans are basically internet prostitution at this point.


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## Hollowway (Jun 26, 2022)

MrWulf said:


> OnlyFans are basically internet prostitution at this point.


Yeah, I've never been on it, but I do know that there are those B list celebrities who use it as such.


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## soul_lip_mike (Jun 26, 2022)

No link?


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## MFB (Jun 26, 2022)

If it's truly going to be non-nude content, then why not move to a platform who's also known for not having nude content (AKA Patreon)? It may start with the best of intentions, but it's a slippery slope.


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## mmr007 (Jun 26, 2022)

Who cares? I'm not saying that to be dismissive of your question...I'm saying no one should care how someone else makes a living that someone else is willing to pay so long as it isn't a scam. A guitar related patreon or onlyfans is basically digital busking and who are we to say what the criteria should be. Someone wants to play guitar in lingerie because someone will pay to watch...more power to them. To me it's still less offensive than Kerry King in his own merch


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## JK-PA (Jun 26, 2022)

Jokes on those who pay to see some titties on the internet.


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## Albake21 (Jun 26, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Who cares? I'm not saying that to be dismissive of your question...I'm saying no one should care how someone else makes a living that someone else is willing to pay so long as it isn't a scam. A guitar related patreon or onlyfans is basically digital busking and who are we to say what the criteria should be. Someone wants to play guitar in lingerie because someone will pay to watch...more power to them. To me it's still less offensive than Kerry King in his own merch


Just because someone is allowed to do it, nor would I ever make that judgment of whether they should do it or not, still makes me okay with saying I'd lose a little respect towards that guitar player.


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## Strobe (Jun 26, 2022)

Eh, it's work. Music does not pay very well. I would not say it is good or bad, it just is.


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## mmr007 (Jun 26, 2022)

Let's be honest....the only reason almost every musician in the 80's didn't have an onlyfans was because the internet didn't exist yet. I was never a fan of Lita Ford but women like her who used sex appeal and a very risque image to sell their music didn't bother me or make me think less of them as musicians. It was only because of the 90's that using sex in order to sell music gave way to thrift shop sweaters to hide track marks fashion in order to sell depression. I appreciate the marriage of sex and rock making a comeback in any way it can.

Let me put it this way.....

I would not think less of the female guitarist who uses overt sex appeal on a pay portal to gain an internet following or the male guitar fan who watches...even for money. In the end she still has talent (hopefully)

But I think less of the female non-guitar player uses overt appeals that should by rights only entertain infants to gain an internet following and *any* adult who actually watches...even for free


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## Winspear (Jun 26, 2022)

Gotta be honest, I think anyone is quite frankly mad to _not _take the opportunity if they can these days. I understand it's a big deal to many, but I can't imagine not doing so. There is so much money on tap right there.
It's becoming quite the norm and I think that's great and am super happy for anyone receiving money outside of traditional work (and it _is_ work, hard work!). I am very much for all methods of self sufficient lifestyles and income supplementation.
I think it makes even more sense for someone already in an existing entertainment industry to be able to cross-advertise their platforms for more exposure. I really view it no differently than any other creative entertainment/artform that 'content creators' of all kinds are exploring these days in various industries.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 26, 2022)

I can't fault anyone for weaponizing their attractiveness. Hell I'd do it if I could make Amouranth level money 
Anyone remember how Peter Steele did playgirl? Or when he put his asshole on the cover of Origin of Feces?


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## lurè (Jun 26, 2022)

If it's non nude, what's the difference with a YT subscription?


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 26, 2022)

relevant


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## lurè (Jun 26, 2022)

Imagine sending feet pics in exchange of gear

Mine would be worth one guitar of the "funny guitar thread"


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## spudmunkey (Jun 26, 2022)

OnlyFans has been trying to attract more non-sex-orientated creators to its site for a while, as a way to grow into a more "legit" platform. There are some people who just treat it as a sort of gate-kept Instagram or Patreon.

That said, if she is "selling her body"...more power to her. I would if I could.  That said...it does open yourself up more to being a target of creeps/stalkers, because once there's money exchanging hands, some people feel entitled....that you "owe" them something you may never have offered. A friend of a friend used to sell photo sets of some (non-nude) photo shoots through Instagram, and someone stalked her PO box to ambush her. Nothing happened beyond a super creepy interaction from someone who thought they were owed something more, but it was enough for her to pull the plug in that side hustle.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Jun 26, 2022)

Which guitarist? /logsintoonlyfans


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jun 26, 2022)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Which guitarist? /logsintoonlyfans


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## Grindspine (Jun 26, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> On the one hand, I'd love for her to be respected for her actual playing, and would love for her to be able to make a living with it, and worry that she won't be taken seriously if she does this.


I literally had to work full-time as a guitar tech, part-time in radio, and part-time in a medical laboratory to make rent make for a few years. Almost everyone I knew working in radio had a side gig. Many of the full-time guitar techs on my team had paying gigs on weekends.

Yes, it sucks if someone feels like they have to do that to get a boost in popularity, but few of us can survive on one job in today's economy. If she gets something out of it and wants to do it, there is no reason to be disappointed in her. Really, I wish that everyone in the world today had a chance to just do what they enjoyed doing while doing something for the good of society for only a few hours a week instead of essentially being indentured servants and wage-slaves.

Besides, she might as well do that while the freedom still exists (that is if it is in the united states).


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## Hollowway (Jun 26, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> I literally had to work full-time as a guitar tech, part-time in radio, and part-time in a medical laboratory to make rent make for a few years. Almost everyone I knew working in radio had a side gig. Many of the full-time guitar techs on my team had paying gigs on weekends.
> 
> Yes, it sucks if someone feels like they have to do that to get a boost in popularity, but few of us can survive on one job in today's economy. If she gets something out of it and wants to do it, there is no reason to be disappointed in her. Really, I wish that everyone in the world today had a chance to just do what they enjoyed doing while doing something for the good of society for only a few hours a week instead of essentially being indentured servants and wage-slaves.
> 
> Besides, she might as well do that while the freedom still exists (that is if it is in the united states).


Yeah, I agree. But I know that women guitarists fight against the impression of them as eye candy, rather than serious players. But I guess there's nothing much she, or any of us, can do about that, other than to try to not judge someone's music with a metric unrelated to their music.


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## Mathemagician (Jun 26, 2022)

Bad Bahbie (spelling?) reportedly earned $52 million dollars on only fans and her content has no nudity.

AFAIK Only fans is known for giving creators full freedom and allegedly takes a lower cut.

It’s business. And for OP I respect you being introspective about understanding your own “why” as to why it seemed to bother you.

I remember reading about a model who put $$$ into the photo content she creates. She was putting in between $20k-40k a month to create content, so clearly she was banking even more than that net.

Some people write songs other people sell nudity. If it’s not good no one will buy it.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 26, 2022)

Sex work is real work. 

Also big ups to @Hollowway for being fearlessly self-critical.

That is all.


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## Randy (Jun 26, 2022)

OnlyFans is just an extension of Patreon, which is an extension of GoFundMe. I'd argue OnlyFans is the only one of the three that has some guaranteed value for the supporter attached to it.

I forget who it was but there was a musician out there that said you shouldn't be ashamed to "shake the can", meaning much of music as a career is like busking. Using your art to live, which is in itself humbling. In that sense, I don't think an OnlyFans is especially demeaning (or should be, anyway) a supplement to your craft.


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## Hollowway (Jun 27, 2022)

So the guitarist I’m talking about is Sonia Anubis (stage name). She’s in Cobra Spell and was in a couple of other bands. It just caught me off guard, as she has never really pushed that part of her persona online. And I don’t know if it’s nude, but the description DEFINITELY sounds that way. 

Oddly, it’s in contrast to Kiki Wong, who does portray her self in a sultry way online, but who has a non-nude (I think, based on the description) onlyfans. 

I was mainly curious if this would have a short term positive impact, but long term negative impact. For instance, it’s exceptionally hard for porn actors (male and female) to be taken seriously, and cross over into, traditional film and TV. 

And I also wondered if this is an American thing, because Americans are particularly conservative when it comes to sex and nudity, but liberal when it comes to violence. It’s super obvious in our movie rating system, and our current book banning. (I can’t believe I’m typing “current book banning” in 2022, but here we are.)
I suspect that maybe in other countries it’s less of a big deal.

Anyway, the description on Sonia’s page took me back, because I guess I just made a bunch of assumptions about her which were totally wrong. And that says more about me than anything else.


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## mastapimp (Jun 27, 2022)

If she can convince someone to send her money for something that she's got going for her, that's perfectly fine and dandy. 

Having known two girls that have gone into this kind of work, it's opening up a whole can of worms with unhealthy expectations and stalkers. Let's say this gets both her personal and band's popularity rising. Is she going to be comfortable interacting with the same people face to face that show up to her shows that only know her and fantasize about her from her onlyfans content? One of the girls I know no longer advertises when she goes to conventions because of bad interactions with fans that don't respect real life boundaries or think they know her through her "adult content persona"


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## narad (Jun 27, 2022)

Youtube and insta comments on female guitarists just go to show you, creeps gonna creep. Being in Japan I have to deal with this stuff a lot - like AKB48 stuff has basically given Japan 0 music credibility. People by albums to get tickets to hand-shake events, sometimes buying like 10 copies of the same CD. It's pathetic But it's the guys that are pathetic. Props to anyone who can turn some hustle into a sustainable career in music. In aggregate in Japan it's probably had a very negative effect on actual music talent and women's rights and objectification, but that's because it's the mainstream.


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## lurè (Jun 27, 2022)

Dont know if onlyfans allows comments but for a female player would be a relief to put out content without having to deal with weirdos on the comment section


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 27, 2022)

I find it disappointing how female guitarists/musicians are seen online now. A lot of musicians like Sarah Longfield worked hard and spoke out about objectification and being seen as females that play guitar rather than guitarists who happen to be female. It was going well until guitar audiences moved to Instagram/TikTok where the emphasis is on the video rather than the music and a lot of females were able to take full advantage of that.

A female musician will get 100 times the reach of a guy, if you’re pretty then you can get 10 times that if you are prepared to target the thirsty male audience. I see guys jealous of the reach they get but that kind of audience comes with creeps who will stalk you and aggressive guys who will leave disgusting comments. Not to mention all the thirsty comments. Often this kind of audience doesn’t translate to music sales so they have to pursue other income avenues. 

Making guitar videos is hard enough, if you want to add extra steps like ironing your clothes, putting on makeup and rehearsing a dance/facial expression routine then hats off for adding another level of difficulty and having the confidence to go through with it. 

The music industry is getting tougher every year so people are going to jump on opportunities to make a living. Short term it gives a lot of females opportunities in the music industry. Long term it pushes a negative image where they aren’t taken seriously and an audience that thinks it’s ok to view them sexually and leave comments without consequence. Adding OnlyFans to that mix only enforces a lot of those guys opinions but do what you have to do to make a living. Life is getting expensive!


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## Demiurge (Jun 27, 2022)

I'm sure this guitarist has weighed all of the pro's & con's of the idea and made their decision. They know their fanbase and they know their own tolerance with what of themselves they'll put out there.


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## wankerness (Jun 27, 2022)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I find it disappointing how female guitarists/musicians are seen online now. A lot of musicians like Sarah Longfield worked hard and spoke out about objectification and being seen as females that play guitar rather than guitarists who happen to be female. It was going well until guitar audiences moved to Instagram/TikTok where the emphasis is on the video rather than the music and a lot of females were able to take full advantage of that.
> 
> A female musician will get 100 times the reach of a guy, if you’re pretty then you can get 10 times that if you are prepared to target the thirsty male audience. I see guys jealous of the reach they get but that kind of audience comes with creeps who will stalk you and aggressive guys who will leave disgusting comments. Not to mention all the thirsty comments. Often this kind of audience doesn’t translate to music sales so they have to pursue other income avenues.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sucks for those women that were trying to gain legitimacy for "JUST THE MUSIC" and now have all this getting all the attention. But oh well. New rock music's basically dead right now so I think that pretty much IS the only way to get attention. I don't begrudge them for doing it, but I do think it sucks for women that can't get away with it and makes them even more marginalized if that becomes the way that women are expected to get into the industry again like it was in the bad old days.

Speaking of which, it seems like the majority of videos that facebook has tried to spam at me for MONTHS are just "hot chick plays drums or guitar in short shorts." I've never ONCE clicked on one and I think Sarah Longfield, Tori Amos and Joanna Newsom are the only female musicians I follow, but yet it's relentless. So I can only assume those videos are what's getting all the clicks nationwide and thus what everyone is getting spammed with. I'm guessing they're playing Sweet Child Of Mine or some other bland cover based on how little the videos emphasize how they're playing but I don't know cause I never clicked


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## StevenC (Jun 27, 2022)

Sex work is work.

What's the difference between that and selling your body as a labourer on a construction site?

Plenty of musicians have to have second jobs because society doesn't value artistic endeavours. All of your favourite musicians had another job that was paying the bills before they made it, and some long after they made it because even that doesn't pay the bills.

What's the difference between OnlyFans and Misha streaming videogames for money?

And don't give me some moral justification. What's the difference between OnlyFans and Misha endorsing scammers like BRJ or Pro Tone?

--

(I don't mean to go after bulb specifically. Throw Tosin in there. Throw Fredrik Thordendal in there. Throw Steve Vai in there. All musicians do it because music doesn't pay very well and we hold them to the standard of starving for their art.)


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## MFB (Jun 27, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Sex work is work.
> 
> What's the difference between that and selling your body as a labourer on a construction site?
> 
> ...



Well one ends with something being, y'know, BUILT, whereas the other ends with a bunch of guys giving themselves the ol' thigh-pie cause they couldn't get their jeans around their ankles in time. There's plenty of other jobs that musicians can work as a second job besides letting people ogle their bodies after years of other musicians working their asses off to play and saying "I'm more than just my body."


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## Albake21 (Jun 27, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Sex work is work.
> 
> What's the difference between that and selling your body as a labourer on a construction site?
> 
> ...


Uhh... one is literally destroying their body, using physical skills to create an end goal, a built structure for people to use. The other is just showing off their body for money in the comfort of their own home. There's no comparison.

Someone using OnlyFans (with nudity) to make money in the music field and a starving artist pushing scam builders are two completely different things. With that said, both equally shitty in my eyes.


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## Randy (Jun 27, 2022)

MFB said:


> Well one ends with something being, y'know, BUILT, whereas the other ends with a bunch of guys giving themselves the ol' thigh-pie cause they couldn't get their jeans around their ankles in time. There's plenty of other jobs that musicians can work as a second job besides letting people ogle their bodies after years of other musicians working their asses off to play and saying "I'm more than just my body."


Meh. I used to be mega-prudish about women using sex to sell music (especially being in a band with a woman, myself) but it's a cliche just like all the cliches men use (misogyny, satanism, violence) to also appeal to a base instinct of their audience. It would be great if you could sell music or make a living wearing a T-shirt and jeans but we know people like their music wrapped in something else. For some musicians, the "something else" is sex.

The other thing you're referencing is a little different; the idea of using your body or sex then saying "I'm more than a sex object". Which is technically still true, but silly. 

Reminds me of guitarists speeding up their playing. I don't mind it at all because to me what matters is the product and sometimes speeding things up is necessary to get the sound you're after. That's different than speeding up your playing, lying about it and being obstinate because people say you sped your playing up. 

Wanting all the benefits, then acknowledging there's a stigma by lying that's what you did (because you want any of the negative perceptions that come with it) is a different discussion.


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## Emperoff (Jun 27, 2022)

All I can say is that if my singer finds out Sonia Anubis has an OnlyFans account he'll be throwing money at his computer screen in seconds. 

A quick Google search revealed she's indeed posting nude content. What can I say... Some guitarists put their name on gear from scam companies to make money out of fans. Some others appear nude on camera. Pick your poison


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## MFB (Jun 27, 2022)

Randy said:


> Meh. I used to be mega-prudish about women using sex to sell music (especially being in a band with a woman, myself) but it's a cliche just like all the cliches men use (misogyny, satanism, violence) to also appeal to a base instinct of their audience. It would be great if you could sell music or make a living wearing a T-shirt and jeans but we know people like their music wrapped in something else. For some musicians, the "something else" is sex.
> 
> The other thing you're referencing is a little different; the idea of using your body or sex then saying "I'm more than a sex object". Which is technically still true, but silly.
> 
> ...



I'm just not sure why OF/camming always seems to be the default now as their "job" when there's plenty of other valid jobs you can do before hitting that that still allows you to be in a band.

I'll state up front, and this is going to be painted pretty broadly to many I'm sure, but I find camming/OF/etc to just be the newest version of people trying to be Youtube stars. I understand you do have to put in work to make yourself a name in that scene/community, but even still, at the end of the day the end result of you work is just ...being on cam and getting off a lot? In my mind, it's just a bit sad that that's the reality people are aspiring to: I just want people to look at my body online and get off to it for money. I remember growing up a lot of people used to joke like, if they couldn't do anything it was, "well I can always do porn!" but that's not always the reality.

As for speeding up music/writing what you can't play, I think that's fine as long as you're up front and honest about it - at that point it's about the composition and not necessarily playing it live. If you're trying to do it live and it's well above your level, then don't be surprised if there's backlash afterwards (see: every SSO flavor of the month band that's happened to), but for the casual fan not seeing it live won't be a big deal as it doesn't mean the actual product (the album/songs) don't exist.


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## StevenC (Jun 27, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> Uhh... one is literally destroying their body, using physical skills to create an end goal, a built structure for people to use. The other is just showing off their body for money in the comfort of their own home. There's no comparison.
> 
> Someone using OnlyFans (with nudity) to make money in the music field and a starving artist pushing scam builders are two completely different things. With that said, both equally shitty in my eyes.


Except, this is using sex work to supplement income. Not to sell music, but to afford to make music. 

Why is being a sex worker wrong in your eyes?


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## JSanta (Jun 27, 2022)

I don't see the problem. So many female musicians are objectified online as it is, why not celebrate that they feel empowered to make money from it?

Honestly, if I didn't look like a sasquatch and could make money from my appearance, I probably would. At least here in the States, there are so few safety nets, and artists are treated as expendable. 

I heard a joke a few years ago asking about what the male equivalent is of "if this doesn't work, I'll just become a stripper", and the answer was join the Army. Which I did. Who am I to pass judgement?


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 27, 2022)

JSanta said:


> I don't see the problem. So many female musicians are objectified online as it is, why not celebrate that they feel empowered to make money from it?
> 
> Honestly, if I didn't look like a sasquatch and could make money from my appearance, I probably would. At least here in the States, there are so few safety nets, and artists are treated as expendable.
> 
> I heard a joke a few years ago asking about what the male equivalent is of "if this doesn't work, I'll just become a stripper", and the answer was join the Army. Which I did. Who am I to pass judgement?


I wish I'd been a stripper rather than joined the army in hindsight. Would've made way better money.


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## Adieu (Jun 27, 2022)

It's probably a good self-test for your inner conservative prudishness

Should an artist in these hard times:
1) Use sex appeal and her existing popularity to make money AND advertise her music too while she's at it
2) Devote less time to music and get a "real job" (which wouldn't advertise her music)
3) Find a sugar daddy

Btw, just wondering, how is this any different from all those barechested fools in spandex selling posters in the 80s? Or is that somehow different because it is suggestive male photos targeted at closet gay kids and fangirls?


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## Adieu (Jun 27, 2022)

Btw, this is totally the same thing as when Asian producers don't let their pop stars marry or get caught dating in public

Juvenile fanbois apparently get "disappointed" that she's not pure and virginal


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## Albake21 (Jun 27, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Except, this is using sex work to supplement income. Not to sell music, but to afford to make music.
> 
> Why is being a sex worker wrong in your eyes?


Wrong? Definitely wouldn't say that. Respected? Hell no.

I have massive respect for those who actually challenge themselves in life. Those who get off their ass and actually make something of themselves. Your example was a construction worker. Someone who puts in their blood sweat and tears into their work and actually earns their money. A skill/trade. Taking a nude and posting it online cannot be compared here.

Some chick showing her tits or some dude whipping out his dick behind a guitar is absolutely the opposite of challenging yourself and showing pride in what you do. It's bottom of the barrel at most.

This has nothing to do with "prudishness", it has to do with placing my respect towards those who actually deserve it. All those men and women out their hustling, actually putting in the effort towards what they love. They don't need to use sleezy tactics like selling their body to push music.

I'm honestly really shocked I'm in the minority here, but hey everyone's allowed their opinions.


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## Winspear (Jun 27, 2022)

MFB said:


> I'm just not sure why OF/camming always seems to be the default now as their "job" when there's plenty of other valid jobs you can do before hitting that that still allows you to be in a band.
> 
> I'll state up front, and this is going to be painted pretty broadly to many I'm sure, but I find camming/OF/etc to just be the newest version of people trying to be Youtube stars. I understand you do have to put in work to make yourself a name in that scene/community, but even still, at the end of the day the end result of you work is just ...being on cam and getting off a lot? In my mind, it's just a bit sad that that's the reality people are aspiring to: I just want people to look at my body online and get off to it for money. I remember growing up a lot of people used to joke like, if they couldn't do anything it was, "well I can always do porn!" but that's not always the reality.
> 
> As for speeding up music/writing what you can't play, I think that's fine as long as you're up front and honest about it - at that point it's about the composition and not necessarily playing it live. If you're trying to do it live and it's well above your level, then don't be surprised if there's backlash afterwards (see: every SSO flavor of the month band that's happened to), but for the casual fan not seeing it live won't be a big deal as it doesn't mean the actual product (the album/songs) don't exist.





Albake21 said:


> Wrong? Definitely wouldn't say that. Respected? Hell no.
> 
> I have massive respect for those who actually challenge themselves in life. Those who get off their ass and actually make something of themselves. Your example was a construction worker. Someone who puts in their blood sweat and tears into their work and actually earns their money. A skill/trade. Taking a nude and posting it online cannot be compared here.
> 
> ...



Because it's a valid job with little/no barrier to entry, self employment is appealing, convenience, relatively easy to hit min wage very quickly with potential to go far, far higher. And perhaps, because sex is fun? "Before hitting that" - before hitting what? You make it sound like a last resort. Maybe for some, and that's personal choice, but is it so hard to think that many are doing it because they want to?

Why not respected?

And yes there are many jobs that require more skill, obviously. But why does one have to 'challenge themselves' to make a living?

Shouldn't it be everyone's logical conclusion to make as much money as quickly and easily as possible whilst allowing themselves the maximum amount of time (and money) to invest in other careers or hobbies they really enjoy and would do for free or even pay to do? Such as more music, or anything else that might not pay well or at all or is simply leisure.

Not many people in life are lucky enough to enjoy their 'skilled and respectable' educated career so much that they would do it for free. Some people are lucky enough to realise one doesn't have to do such things to be a successful person, no matter what others may think. That there are paths available to a happy life that are right there open and waiting, obscured only by some nonsensical taboo.

Respect from me comes from taking the reigns of your own life and going for what you want the best way you can, as long as it isn't harming others.


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## Grindspine (Jun 27, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I agree. But I know that women guitarists fight against the impression of them as eye candy, rather than serious players. But I guess there's nothing much she, or any of us, can do about that, other than to try to not judge someone's music with a metric unrelated to their music.


Understandable. I recently saw some posts by a female musician ranting about how she could not be taken seriously as a musician in today's world, then had several risqué photos in the following post. Sometimes it is difficult to separate if certain artists are playing both sides for attention. There are so many degrees of how someone portrays themselves to the media. 

That being said, there are many musicians who do not post their pictures or faces, even wearing masks on stage. In the end, if someone wants to treat music as showbusiness and include sexual imagery, it is up to that artist to what extent they want to include it.

I have come to the conclusion that musicians who spend more time posting photos of themselves on Instagram than they post videos or music clips on other sites are less likely for me to take them seriously as musicians.


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## StevenC (Jun 27, 2022)

There are so many jobs out there which require loads of difficult to achieve qualifications, that pay really well and the output is literally making the world worse for everyone. Are you telling me that's more respectable than sex work? 

It takes a lot of hard work to become, say, a hedge fund manager. Usually you need a very good graduate degree from a good university. And then you spend your time gambling on crypto to increase the wealth of shitty people my fractions of percents. Literally destroying the earth and scamming people, but if you have a sex worker and an hedge fund manager at your table at a wedding who disgusts you more? 



Winspear said:


> Because it's a valid job with little/no barrier to entry, self employment is appealing, convenience, relatively easy to hit min wage very quickly with potential to go far, far higher. And perhaps, because sex is fun? "Before hitting that" - before hitting what? You make it sound like a last resort. Maybe for some, and that's personal choice, but is it so hard to think that many are doing it because they want to?
> 
> Why not respected?
> 
> ...


Great Post!


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## Empryrean (Jun 27, 2022)

Sounds to me that she's ( I assume) conventionally attractive and currently in possession of a captive audience. No one would fault a company for trying to capitalize(and failing  ) on their newfound Morbin' popularity. I think what you're feeling is dysphoria between who you think she is and assumptions you're making of sex workers. Work is work at the end of the day, you shouldn't conflate her skill with her marketability. Thanks to the advent of social media more than ever we can become fans of fairly regular people. As fans of people it's easy to paint a narrative of who they are and that can be a really damning thing when you project your own values on them. weirdly enough this does present the opportunity to confront your biases like you currently are doing, good on you by the way, and maybe even change your views on things that have never before effected you.


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## Shoeless_jose (Jun 27, 2022)

Demand creates supply. And this sure is less sleazy than shilling for sketchy gear companies.

And if dudes don't respect her playing as much because of it. That's 10000000% on them for being shitty.


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## NotDonVito (Jun 27, 2022)

Kiki Wongo can get it tbh.


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## AltecGreen (Jun 27, 2022)

narad said:


> Youtube and insta comments on female guitarists just go to show you, creeps gonna creep. Being in Japan I have to deal with this stuff a lot - like AKB48 stuff has basically given Japan 0 music credibility. People by albums to get tickets to hand-shake events, sometimes buying like 10 copies of the same CD. It's pathetic But it's the guys that are pathetic. Props to anyone who can turn some hustle into a sustainable career in music. In aggregate in Japan it's probably had a very negative effect on actual music talent and women's rights and objectification, but that's because it's the mainstream.



The irony is that the number of really talented female musicians is staggering in Japan. But it is cringe worthy looking at the audience of a typical concert for many of the all female bands. 


Japan also as the example of Shouko Takahashi was was the one time guitarist for the band Hölderlins before leaving the band and becoming one of Japan's top porn stars.


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## wankerness (Jun 28, 2022)

Adieu said:


> Btw, just wondering, how is this any different from all those barechested fools in spandex selling posters in the 80s? Or is that somehow different because it is suggestive male photos targeted at closet gay kids and fangirls?


I think there's definitely some overlap, my mind first went to the likes of Motley Crue or Poison or whatever when reading this topic. However, those guys really were largely about the music and the bulk of their fanbase actually listened to them instead of primarily staring at them. Really, though, there's definitely some similarity there. I'm guessing back in the 80s that guys felt unrealistic expectations of having to not be balding and having to look hot in silly getups. Hence most popular bands back then were either hotties or aggressively went in the other direction (Cheap Trick, Motorhead). 

I think there are a couple different arguments happening in this thread:

1) Sex workers are all bad and lazy
2) Sex workers are all great and it's valid

I'd like to put forth as mine:

3) Sex workers are totally valid and I think people should use onlyfans if they can do it, but I think that if you're trying to say you're primarily a musician and secondarily an onlyfans person you're both not going to be taken very seriously and you're also (mildly) harming the careers of any women playing in the same genre that DON'T want to do that.

SO, I guess, whatever, I don't begrudge them, I just think it sucks for women that can't/don't want to do that because it helps to create expectations for women in what is STILL a totally male-dominated genre.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 28, 2022)

I don't really care how people make their money, but if you are saying your OnlyFans account is gonna be like Patreon, just use Patreon. I don't want to explain that line item to my wife when I am just trying to learn some shred licks.


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## Emperoff (Jun 28, 2022)

My take on this topic is that regardless of what you consider morally acceptable or not, if this becomes a thing it will surely affect the female guitarists that want to get exposure but not to expose their bodies.

I'm also quite sure that if we asked some female guitarists for their opinion on this subject, the overall responses would be quite less... Mixed.


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## MFB (Jun 28, 2022)

wankerness said:


> 3) Sex workers are totally valid and I think people should use onlyfans if they can do it, but I think that if you're trying to say you're primarily a musician and secondarily an onlyfans person you're both not going to be taken very seriously and you're also (mildly) harming the careers of any women playing in the same genre that DON'T want to do that.
> 
> SO, I guess, whatever, I don't begrudge them, I just think it sucks for women that can't/don't want to do that because it helps to create expectations for women in what is STILL a totally male-dominated genre.





ArtDecade said:


> I don't really care how people make their money, but if you are saying your OnlyFans account is gonna be like Patreon, just use Patreon.





Emperoff said:


> My take on this topic is that regardless of what you consider morally acceptable or not, if this becomes a thing it will surely affect the female guitarists that want to get exposure but not to expose their bodies.
> 
> I'm also quite sure that if we asked some female guitarists for their opinion on this subject, the overall responses would be quite less... Mixed.



Yes to all of these.


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## mehegama (Jun 28, 2022)

The issue in my opinion is that now everyone will focus to the nudes and not the music. 
Even if it is non-nude, as the money may flow, the money is sweet, the requests will become more hardcore and before you know it you go porn.
Even though I have nothing against sex workers, she will probably lose respect from a big part of the society, coz of social norms and the irony is that many of those paying to get the nudes would criticize her in public, the mother of all hypocrisies.
Given the known issues with sex workers/porn stars with mental health, i think in the long run, it is a very bad decision.


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## StevenC (Jun 28, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> I don't really care how people make their money, but if you are saying your OnlyFans account is gonna be like Patreon, just use Patreon. I don't want to explain that line item to my wife when I am just trying to learn some shred licks.


For what it's worth. OnlyFans started out as a competitor to Patreon, just like Subbable of the past, but it also allowed explicit content which Patreon doesn't. That's what allowed it to become the site it currently is, but people talking about it trying to sanitise its image by pushing non-adult content are being ignorant.


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## Adieu (Jun 28, 2022)

Y'all realize that posting some provocative pics on yet another monetized social network CAN be a far cry from "sex work"?


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## ShredmasterD (Jun 28, 2022)

remember those Gibson guitar posters from the 90's with the girls and a V, SG and some others?


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## jaxadam (Jun 28, 2022)

I thought Patreon was a type of tequila?


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## Adieu (Jun 28, 2022)

Nope, that's Patron

Patreon is a crowdfunding platform for content creators' operating expenses. All sorts of youtubers, musicians, comic artists etc. try to use it, albeit I'm not sure how effectively


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## narad (Jun 28, 2022)

That's weird, I thought it was a harry potter thing.


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## RevDrucifer (Jun 28, 2022)

I have no qualms about anyone making an income in any way they can.

If the person creating the content is cool with it, more power to them!

That said, I’ve seen the darker sides of what can come of an OnlyFans account. Both women I knew who had accounts started off with caps on what they were willing to do, both were in long-term relationships and had mutually agreed on limitations with their S/O’s but once they saw how much money they were passing up due to those limitations, it turned into a lot of deceit, secrets and straight up lies. My ex-wife was one of them and it played a rather large role in our divorce and the other relationship shit the bed as well.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 28, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> I have no qualms about anyone making an income in any way they can.
> 
> If the person creating the content is cool with it, more power to them!
> 
> That said, I’ve seen the darker sides of what can come of an OnlyFans account. Both women I knew who had accounts started off with caps on what they were willing to do, both were in long-term relationships and had mutually agreed on limitations with their S/O’s but once they saw how much money they were passing up due to those limitations, it turned into a lot of deceit, secrets and straight up lies. My ex-wife was one of them and it played a rather large role in our divorce and the other relationship shit the bed as well.


Money makes people do things they might not normally do.


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## Mathemagician (Jun 28, 2022)

Winspear said:


> Because it's a valid job with little/no barrier to entry, self employment is appealing, convenience, relatively easy to hit min wage very quickly with potential to go far, far higher. And perhaps, because sex is fun? "Before hitting that" - before hitting what? You make it sound like a last resort. Maybe for some, and that's personal choice, but is it so hard to think that many are doing it because they want to?
> 
> Why not respected?
> 
> ...



That’s the thing about work. Everyone who thinks “it’s not a real job” wants to ignore the hard HARD work that goes into looking “hot”.

The calorie counting, the time in the gym. The daily monitoring of food intake, building your schedule around your fitness.

Then there is the girlfriend/boyfriend factor of building a persona that people are attracted to. That makes them feel like they know you/have a relationship with you through a screen. That stuff would be exhausting. 

Meanwhile I’m over here eating donuts bby.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 28, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> Wrong? Definitely wouldn't say that. Respected? Hell no.
> 
> I have massive respect for those who actually challenge themselves in life. Those who get off their ass and actually make something of themselves. Your example was a construction worker. Someone who puts in their blood sweat and tears into their work and actually earns their money. A skill/trade. Taking a nude and posting it online cannot be compared here
> 
> ...


if taking nudes was all it was, I'd agree with you. There's marketing, makeup, sourcing outfits, video/photo editing, staying in shape, doing collaborations to get cross fanbases. 

To put it into another perspective, I know some paramedics and nurses who also do it because the supplemental income is good enough that they can better support their kids.


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## mastapimp (Jun 28, 2022)

Mathemagician said:


> That’s the thing about work. Everyone who thinks “it’s not a real job” wants to ignore the hard HARD work that goes into looking “hot”.
> 
> The calorie counting, the time in the gym. The daily monitoring of food intake, building your schedule around your fitness.
> 
> ...


I agree that it does take time and effort to keep up appearances and "play the game" but some of the more outrageous cash grabs are just plain lazy like offering up used dirty underwear for $100 a pop, making a "spoil me" wish list, or bottling your farts...now that I think about it, i've never tried to do that...could actually be difficult. 

Another aspect that nobody's mentioned is that these types of jobs usually have a pretty finite shelf life. She should try to monetize it as much as she can before others expand into her territory or go beyond her limitations.


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## tedtan (Jun 28, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> offering up used dirty underwear for $100 a pop, making a "spoil me" wish list, or bottling your farts


Is this actually a thing (serious question)?


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## lurè (Jun 28, 2022)

Nothing wrong with onlyfans; but I just dont get how would it shift the attention from how you look to your playing.

If you are using it for what it is no problem, but if you struggle to lead the attention to your music why going into a platform that is well known for nudity in general?


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## mastapimp (Jun 28, 2022)

tedtan said:


> Is this actually a thing (serious question)?


Yes, the underwear thing are wish lists are quite common. The farts, not so much, but has made national news before: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...rs-then-suffers-health-scare/?sh=26aaa22336fc 

I feel bad for the people that buy the items, not so much the seller.


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## Albake21 (Jun 28, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> if taking nudes was all it was, I'd agree with you. There's marketing, makeup, sourcing outfits, video/photo editing, staying in shape, doing collaborations to get cross fanbases.
> 
> To put it into another perspective, I know some paramedics and nurses who also do it because the supplemental income is good enough that they can better support their kids.


Yeah.... still no comparison between a construction worker and everything you listed besides maybe staying in shape. But isn't that just a normal human thing? I mean... everyone should be working on their health and being in shape, obviously most of us don't, me included, but that's a goal that everyone should try to achieve. 

And honestly, that's just straight up gross to me. Not because these nurses are posting, they can do what they want, but because their kids will be involved at some point. The internet is getting less and less private as time goes on. Damn near everything we do gets tracked and now our identities are starting to be verified. 

I can guarantee these kids will see their Mom's photos in their lifetime. Imagine being in their shoes. I understand the mother's intentions are for the good of their kids, but I feel they lack the knowledge that this will come back and haunt their family in the future.

For some reason I still have to reiterate this because people keep thinking I'm evil or something. I do not care if people choose sex work, I'm all for it being a legitimate job, but that still gives me the right to frown upon it, especially in music/the scenario in this thread. I would never say anything negative towards someone about it, nor would I directly judge them. All this does is hurt the actual musicians out their who want to be taken seriously.


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## tedtan (Jun 28, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> Yes, the underwear thing are wish lists are quite common. The farts, not so much, but has made national news before: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...rs-then-suffers-health-scare/?sh=26aaa22336fc
> 
> I feel bad for the people that buy the items, not so much the seller.


Wow, I’m not sure how to respond to that.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 28, 2022)

ITT: Concern Trolling


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## Winspear (Jun 28, 2022)

I must say I'm not entirely sure on the musician-specific qualms some have in this thread like it somehow dilutes their career as a musician and that that is all they should be doing. I don't really see it any differently to someone whos career is X but who also does YZ other hobbies, sells some stuff on ebay, etc etc. If they choose not to do it anonymously or especially to crosspost and advertise to their music fans that they are available on OF then that's up to them and I'm sure they are aware and don't necessarily care that it will potentially dilute the 'musicianness' of their fanbase. You'll get some porn fans who will check out your music because they like you, and some music fans who will check out your porn. Win win.
Regarding concern about it delegitimizing _other _artists who don't want to engage in that..they just wont, and music fans will continue to enjoy their music just the same. Women in all walks of life already experience a great number of creeps, especially if they are public facing such as being a musician. Which is indeed a shame, and scummy guys are only to blame for this. I'm not really sure how _other_ women doing OF is being implied to make that problem worse, and I'm not sure it can really get worse than it already is. Heckling has always been a huge issue. Hell, maybe it'll go the other way and if the market is saturated enough, creepy guys will be busy and satisfied enough to actually just focus on what some random youtube guitarist is actually doing rather than asking them for nudes


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 28, 2022)

Winspear said:


> I must say I'm not entirely sure on the musician-specific qualms some have in this thread like it somehow dilutes their career as a musician and that that is all they should be doing.
> Regarding concern about it delegitimizing _other _artists who don't want to engage in that..they just wont, and music fans will continue to enjoy their music just the same.



Nobody actually cares about that stuff, it's just concern trolling. Your confusion arises from engaging in good faith with intellectually dishonest posturing.

The real issues here are: 

Male entitlement and virgin-whore complex, coupled with the fact that acknowledging sex work as real work means we have to confront the fact that SW isn't inherently exploitative because of the sex part, but because of the work part, and we just aren't collectively ready for that. 

Relegating it to quasi-legal territory is the policy manifestation of the collective virgin-whore complex, allowing men to simultaneously enjoy and deride the profession without having to interrogate their behaviors or conditioning. It also inherently precludes any sort of traditional labor organization in all but a few areas, leaving an already vulnerable population even more open to exploitation.


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## nickgray (Jun 28, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> where she'll be posting what she describes as sleazy hot, revealing, content without limitation



You know, if such male content was viable, we'd all be practically drowning in a sea of cocks. Alas, as shown by the recent Ellefson incident, there's no demand for it.


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## Albake21 (Jun 28, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> ITT: Concern Trolling


Is this directed towards me? If so, I'd rather you just say so. And if so, such a weird thing to say towards someone's opinions. We're allowed to voice them on an open discussion based forum without someone dismissing things with comments like this.

And if not, kindly disregard.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 28, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> Is this directed towards me? If so, I'd rather you just say so. And if so, such a weird thing to say towards someone's opinions. We're allowed to voice them on an open discussion based forum without someone dismissing things with comments like this.
> 
> And if not, kindly disregard.



Not just you, but since you asked:

You may not recognize it but your position comes across incredibly patronizing, like these people are out here fucking it up for their kids and all the "actual musicians" (speaking of weird things to say, what?) and they're too... (???) to know better. Here's the thing, if the concern for "the children" were legitimate we would be seeing sweeping changes to income inequality. Flipping it back around on parents trying to put food on the table allows us to conveniently sidestep the real issue (this is the exact mechanism of concern trolling) that they're so fucking poor and we live in such a destitute shithole of a country that they're turning to marginalized, highly-stigmatized sources of income to support their basic needs. Incidentally, this is also why people deal drugs.

The problem with "the children" isn't just in SW, either. My father has worked construction his whole life, and I've done plenty of it myself. Construction is extremely demanding work, it destroys people's bodies well before their time and demands massive commitments of their time/energy that necessarily remove from their ability to put it toward family and/or their own pursuits outside of raw capital injection. This also takes a toll on people's mental health and contributes to addiction issues and generational trauma as they pass these habits on to their children. That this kind of self-sacrifice is normalized, even glorified when there's no actual good reason for it is pretty sickening. That's not a critique of construction though, much less of the people doing it, it's critique of _work, _specifically the culture of work that predominates the western, capitalist world.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 28, 2022)

It's a sign of the times. 

I know some reasonably successful professionals with OF side hustles. 

No one really cares anymore. It's not the 70's anymore, heck it isn't even the 90's. I mean someone on the internet will always care, but the effect in the real world is so diminished these days. 

Like you'll meet someone and they'll mention, casually, they have an OF.


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## Albake21 (Jun 28, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> Not just you, but since you asked:
> 
> You may not recognize it but your position comes across incredibly patronizing, like these people are out here fucking it up for their kids and all the "actual musicians" (speaking of weird things to say, what?) and they're too... (???) to know better. Here's the thing, if the concern for "the children" were legitimate we would be seeing sweeping changes to income inequality. Flipping it back around on parents trying to put food on the table allows us to conveniently sidestep the real issue (this is the exact mechanism of concern trolling) that they're so fucking poor and we live in such a destitute shithole of a country that they're turning to marginalized, highly-stigmatized sources of income to support their basic needs. Incidentally, this is also why people deal drugs.
> 
> The problem with "the children" isn't just in SW, either. My father has worked construction his whole life, and I've done plenty of it myself. Construction is extremely demanding work, it destroys people's bodies well before their time and demands massive commitments of their time/energy that necessarily remove from their ability to put it toward family and/or their own pursuits outside of raw capital injection. This also takes a toll on people's mental health and contributes to addiction issues and generational trauma as they pass these habits on to their children. That this kind of self-sacrifice is normalized, even glorified when there's no actual good reason for it is pretty sickening. That's not a critique of construction though, much less of the people doing it, it's critique of _work, _specifically the culture of work that predominates the western, capitalist world.


I think you're taking an angle away from where my original response was coming from. It sounds like you're looking at it from a work culture/slightly political point of view. That's a totally valid opinion and I even agree with you in some areas.

I think where this conversation differs is that I'm coming at it from a Fatherly and relationship point of view. If I had a son or daughter, I would be crushed knowing they were working OF for their living. Same thing applies in a relationship. I would never want nudes of my partner to be shared around, even more so sold like an internet prostitute. Can you honestly tell me I'm not allowed to have those opinions about my own loved ones?

So again, I respectfully disagree as I have different life point of views. You throwing this cop out response of "ITT: Concern Trolling" is just so insulting when we're talking about a matter of life views and opinions.


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## jaxadam (Jun 28, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> I think you're taking an angle away from where my original response was coming from. It sounds like you're looking at it from a work culture/slightly political point of view. That's a totally valid opinion and I even agree with you in some areas.
> 
> I think where this conversation differs is that I'm coming at it from a Fatherly and relationship point of view. If I had a son or daughter, I would be crushed knowing they were working OF for their living. Same thing applies in a relationship. I would never want nudes of my partner to be shared around, even more so sold like an internet prostitute. Can you honestly tell me I'm not allowed to have those opinions about my own loved ones?
> 
> So again, I respectfully disagree as I have different life point of views. You throwing this cop out response of "ITT: Concern Trolling" is just so insulting when we're talking about a matter of life views and opinions.



So you're saying I shouldn't have an OnlyFans?

Here's the link for anyone interested:

www.onlyfans.com/jaxadam123


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## narad (Jun 28, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> I think you're taking an angle away from where my original response was coming from. It sounds like you're looking at it from a work culture/slightly political point of view. That's a totally valid opinion and I even agree with you in some areas.
> 
> I think where this conversation differs is that I'm coming at it from a Fatherly and relationship point of view. If I had a son or daughter, I would be crushed knowing they were working OF for their living. Same thing applies in a relationship. I would never want nudes of my partner to be shared around, even more so sold like an internet prostitute. Can you honestly tell me I'm not allowed to have those opinions about my own loved ones?
> 
> So again, I respectfully disagree as I have different life point of views. You throwing this cop out response of "ITT: Concern Trolling" is just so insulting when we're talking about a matter of life views and opinions.



But then you're basically just condemning sex / cam work in general, and it's no longer a guitar or music related discussion.


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## Albake21 (Jun 28, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> So you're saying I shouldn't have an OnlyFans?
> 
> Here's the link for anyone interested:
> 
> www.onlyfans.com/jaxadam123


Are we dating? Or even more......son? Is that you?

Also damn that brings me back, super nostalgic.


narad said:


> But then you're basically just condemning sex / cam work in general, and it's no longer a guitar or music related discussion.


I mean, that's essentially what the thread turned into. When you're dissecting people's opinions like some have already challenged, of course it's going to be about more topics than just musicians.

All my point is, when I see a musician selling their nudes for an audience rather than being what they are already good at, I just think to myself "what if that was my son or daughter?" And my response is not good. Simple as that.


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## /wrists (Jun 28, 2022)

2 birds 1 stone!


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## mmr007 (Jun 28, 2022)

There are over 7 billion people on this planet and the chances that I will agree with or approve of how everyone lives their life is beyond infinitesimal so I have decided to shut the fuck up and not judge how people live their lives. Im hungry. I want a taco.


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## STRHelvete (Jun 29, 2022)




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## Demiurge (Jun 29, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> All my point is, when I see a musician selling their nudes for an audience rather than being what they are already good at, I just think to myself "what if that was my son or daughter?" And my response is not good. Simple as that.


But don't you think it's weird to promote some sort of faux-paternalistic concern over the decisions of an adult- especially those regarding said adult's sexual agency? 

The OP brought up the topic with an interrogation of his own knee-jerk judgment, and I think that it's a healthy thing to do here.


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## PatientMental76 (Jun 29, 2022)

Its absolutely a good thing so they can showcase their one & only true talent!


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## Winspear (Jun 29, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> Are we dating? Or even more......son? Is that you?
> 
> Also damn that brings me back, super nostalgic.
> 
> ...



What if it made your son or daughter happier and wealthier than what they would otherwise be doing? Would you not want your child to make choices that make them happiest in life, just because certain other people are judgemental of it?


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## Albake21 (Jun 29, 2022)

Winspear said:


> What if it made your son or daughter happier and wealthier than what they would otherwise be doing? Would you not want your child to make choices that make them happiest in life, just because certain other people are judgemental of it?


This is a tough question to answer considering I'm not an actual father, but if I had to be honest, it would be a double-edged sword. On one hand, I would want what would make my kid happy and successful, but I also wouldn't be able to stop myself from feeling disappointment and shame. 

Would I stop them? No. But I'd be very bothered by it and unsure how I'd handle it. I'll let that play out how it does if it were to happen in my future haha.


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## Winspear (Jun 29, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> This is a tough question to answer considering I'm not an actual father, but if I had to be honest, it would be a double-edged sword. On one hand, I would want what would make my kid happy and successful, but I also wouldn't be able to stop myself from feeling disappointment and shame.
> 
> Would I stop them? No. But I'd be very bothered by it and unsure how I'd handle it. I'll let that play out how it does if it were to happen in my future haha.



Really just food for thought on why that might be and what it really means. I'd encourage anyone to ask themselves why?
But it's understandable, and expected I suppose - I'm sure that would be the majority opinion - tradition does not change easily and it would be a challenge for any one person to shift their opinion on things in their own lifetime. But indeed, there is always a necessary period of conflict and discomfort on both sides as society and traditions progress. But we are probably/hopefully/maybe just a couple of generations away from vast societal improvements in many areas also including LGBT, racism etc. as new generations grow up surrounded by a completely different experience, expectations and norms.


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## narad (Jun 29, 2022)

Albake21 said:


> This is a tough question to answer considering I'm not an actual father, but if I had to be honest, it would be a double-edged sword. On one hand, I would want what would make my kid happy and successful, but I also wouldn't be able to stop myself from feeling disappointment and shame.
> 
> Would I stop them? No. But I'd be very bothered by it and unsure how I'd handle it. I'll let that play out how it does if it were to happen in my future haha.



And how would you feel if your son was paying a girl on onlyfans to do cam stuff? And what if your son was just paying a monthly porn subscription? And what if your son was just looking at free porn online?


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## mehegama (Jun 29, 2022)

narad said:


> And how would you feel if your son was paying a girl on onlyfans to do cam stuff? And what if your son was just paying a monthly porn subscription? And what if your son was just looking at free porn online?


You are pointing very well here the hypocrisy in society where many of the people that condemn sex workers, are regular visitors of porn sites. 
My problem is the known connection of mental health issues and sex workers (prostitutes or porn/cam/OF etc)in the long run. 
Also by going OF she ll forever be known by that and not the music. The music will go on the background. And in a few years time that she might not look as attractive as now, the mental health issues will hit red.. 
THat is what i would be more worried for.


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## narad (Jun 29, 2022)

mehegama said:


> You are pointing very well here the hypocrisy in society where many of the people that condemn sex workers, are regular visitors of porn sites.
> My problem is the known connection of mental health issues and sex workers (prostitutes or porn/cam/OF etc)in the long run.
> Also by going OF she ll forever be known by that and not the music. The music will go on the background. And in a few years time that she might not look as attractive as now, the mental health issues will hit red..
> THat is what i would be more worried for.



But I have to wonder about the causality in these associations between sex work and mental health issues. First, I think these associations were established on sex work population at large. The sophisticated girl making half a million annually catering to NY elites is not the same as the rural mountain town prostitute because that's basically at some point that was the only way to get money, and is not the private cam onlyfans girl trying to augment income to have more time for music, and I imagine the mental health issues do not evenly distribute here.

You might say that sex work does not cause mental health issues, but that people with mental health issues are more prone to sex work (this is just hypothesizing, I've not seen any study good enough to make strong claims here). But, if it's not that, and the causality really is from sex work to mental health, I also wonder if it's not the general shunning and disdain that the people around that person direct towards them, the isolation from family or friends, that pushes them to have such issues. In other words, a lot of the factors may again be external, and may be based on people's prudish judgements rather than some inherent effect of the work.

FWIW, these are the same sort of arguments leveraged against homosexuals in the 70s/80s, and that you see now against trans people. Like hmm, suicides are really high in these demographics (of people that a near majority of the US publicly laughs at or is disgusted by). It's like we make life immensely more difficult for some people, then turn around and say, hmm, they're suffering from very high rates of mental illness. AND THEN turn around and say they're suffering from mental illness, you should really think twice before doing/being X.


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## bostjan (Jun 29, 2022)

IDGAF who has an onlyfans or what people do in private or whatever.

My only thought is that it's probably not the most advisable thing to cross-advertise your adult entertainment content in your youtube videos.  But who cares?


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## lurè (Jun 29, 2022)

Yeah, to me feels like "I'm upset that people dont give a crap about my music but the only look at me for my body, sooo fuck it imma go on onlyfans and forget about music even if I could open a Patreon"


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## ArtDecade (Jun 29, 2022)

My biggest concern about having a child doing sex work is the shelf life. They will need to make lots of cash quickly and invest properly (_though_ _not likely since young people do silly things with money_). Once they leave that line of work for whatever reason, they will still carry the stigma of that work whether justified or not. Society doesn't always do the right things by people.


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## eaeolian (Jun 29, 2022)

narad said:


> And how would you feel if your son was paying a girl on onlyfans to do cam stuff? And what if your son was just paying a monthly porn subscription? And what if your son was just looking at free porn online?


He might be paying, I'm sure he's looking. He's an adult. It's not like I never tipped a stripper.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 29, 2022)

You cannot imagine the rage I feel when I subscribe to an onlyfans and there are no nudes


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## IwantTacos (Jun 29, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> My biggest concern about having a child doing sex work is the shelf life. They will need to make lots of cash quickly and invest properly (_though_ _not likely since young people do silly things with money_). Once they leave that line of work for whatever reason, they will still carry the stigma of that work whether justified or not. Society doesn't always do the right things by people.



Sasha grey is doing great as a gamer lifestyle streamer.


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## MFB (Jun 29, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> Sasha grey is doing great as a gamer lifestyle streamer.



Only after years of having a reputation as the dirtiest girl in porn


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## ArtDecade (Jun 29, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> Sasha grey is doing great as a gamer lifestyle streamer.


... she also isn't old.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 29, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> ... she also isn't old.



She’s way older then she used to be.


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## eaeolian (Jun 29, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> She’s way older then she used to be.


Aren't we all?


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## ItWillDo (Jun 29, 2022)

The big cash flow towards OnlyFans is just a siren song for the oncoming recession. Once the economy grabs coomers by the balls, nature will heal.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 29, 2022)

MFB said:


> Only after years of having a reputation as the dirtiest girl in porn


yeah and it probably increased her viewer count by a decent bit. Mia Malkova also does game/cooking streams. 

Amouranth/Belle Delphine started as gamers/streamers before doing OF


unsurprisingly there's a big overlap between sweaty gamer nerds and sweaty OF subscribers/porn "aficionados"


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## MFB (Jun 29, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah and it probably increased her viewer count by a decent bit. Mia Malkova also does game/cooking streams.
> 
> Amouranth/Belle Delphine started as gamers/streamers before doing OF
> 
> unsurprisingly there's a big overlap between sweaty gamer nerds and sweaty OF subscribers/porn "aficionados"



Exactly my point, I don't think Mia/Sasha would be a blip on the radar if they hadn't come from their porn background into gaming/cooking streaming as they'd just be another face among a sea of other women who were already in that market. However, people DID know they're names because they grew up pullin' their pud to their videos probably as early as they could remember, and now tune in to see them doing something that they can actually tell other people about (maybe, given they still have name recognition for dudes under forty).

Amaranthe/Belle seem to be the same thing just in the opposite direction, where they got in early being gamer girls who knew they were also attractive, and given the absolutely unfuckable portion of gamers - that meant there was money to be made off them as they'll never spend on an IRL GF - so they started dipping their toes into that market which I'm sure got them 1.5x the viewership/income due to those who were only in one sector that they were previously appealing to.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 29, 2022)

I will say the general trajectory of conversations like this, at least on SS.org, has changed drastically in the years I've been paying attention and it's refreshing as fuck.


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## tedtan (Jun 29, 2022)

narad said:


> And how would you feel if your son was paying a girl on onlyfans to do cam stuff? And what if your son was just paying a monthly porn subscription? And what if your son was just looking at free porn online?


Depends on whether he’s watching cam girls or buying bottled farts.

The former, meh.

The latter, he probably needs a good ass kicking.


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## Lemonbaby (Jun 29, 2022)

Winspear said:


> What if it made your son or daughter happier and wealthier than what they would otherwise be doing? Would you not want your child to make choices that make them happiest in life, just because certain other people are judgemental of it?


Hate to sound like the old guy I am, but being wealthier will not make you happier. Doing just about anything for a few bucks is the worst path you can follow. Been there, done that. Stepped back from director level, now just doing my job, spending more time with my family, having more time for my own projects, sports, nature, vacation.

"We work on jobs we hate, so we can buy shit we don't need to impress people we don't even like."


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## Winspear (Jun 29, 2022)

Lemonbaby said:


> Hate to sound like the old guy I am, but being wealthier will not make you happier. Doing just about anything for a few bucks is the worst path you can follow. Been there, done that. Stepped back from director level, now just doing my job, spending more time with my family, having more time for my own projects, sports, nature, vacation.
> 
> "We work on jobs we hate, so we can buy shit we don't need to impress people we don't even like."



Oh I know. I wasn't meaning to imply excessive wealth or anything like that. Moreso just the ability to earn a better than average amount per hour, work less, have more freedom etc. Really exactly what you said about having more time.


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## youngthrasher9 (Jun 29, 2022)

I know a couple of women who do/did OF personally. I’m seeing some misconceptions here.

1. Those guys/gals/non-binary pals have to put in a shit load of work to promote themselves if they don’t already have a platform from something else, and then keeping with producing consistent content and doing custom requests for more cash is more than a full time job. Sure, the ability to pick and choose what request to take and how often to produce content decreases as the subscribers grow, but the numbers have to be insane to reach the point where it isn’t exhausting.
2. Money invested in it can get out of hand fast. In the face paced world we live in, these people have to produce content wearing different stuff or using different backdrops constantly, and the money isn’t always there.

This is all slightly unrelated, but until they have thousands of subscribers, they don’t make a full living on just OF or other sex work sites.

I support anyone using the absolute of their assets to make their lives more financially comfortable, but there is another issue: most people can’t handle the mental toll it actually takes. Even if you don’t care about others seeing intimate videos and photos of you, that is far from the whole deal. The commentary and interactions can be pretty horrible, and not at the basic retail abuse level. Kinks complicate the hell out of this. A lot of people will knowingly damage themselves mentally if the money is good enough.


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## Winspear (Jun 29, 2022)

^ Absolutely. It's definitely hard work! It's really very similar to success in any online entertainment industry these days - Such as the kind of social media presence musicians are required to maintain etc. 
It can definitely be very advantageous on the mental side to have a partner etc. manage the interactions instead depending how much you can handle


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## mehegama (Jun 29, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> most people can’t handle the mental toll it actually takes


exactly my objection as well. In the long run it affects the mental health of a lot of people involved in the sex industry in general.


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## Hollowway (Jun 29, 2022)

I think there are two issues here: How we (any individual) feels about a choice a person makes, and how "society" feels about it. Like, if my daughter, wife, etc., wanted to do an Only Fans thing, I think it would depend a lot on what else she wanted to do in the future. Same thing with getting a face tattoo, or anything else that might not be judged as acceptable by people in certain industries. There's a fine line between doing what is expected of you, and not being yourself because of it. So, while I fully support anyone doing whatever they want (provided it doesn't hurt others) I DO worry that not everyone thinks that way. So if a 19 year old wanted to become an investment banker, and also wanted to get a face tattoo, I'd tell them that they really need to consider what their potential bosses would think when they applied for a job. I personally don't think it should matter what someone looks like, because having a face tattoo doesn't mean you can't be an awesome investment banker. But I'm not conservative about stuff like that. So when someone poses for OF, I have this immediate, gut reaction that is, "oof, this might not end well." But I don't even know if that's a "thing" anymore. Seems like people are super open about that kind of a thing now, and (as I said before) I was kind of surprised by that gut reaction of myself. Like, I caught myself being old and judgy, lol.


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## Lemonbaby (Jun 30, 2022)

I'd say the single biggest issue with starting any business model based on social media is: you get kind of "famous" before it moves anywhere near a status you could describe as "wealth". That's literally the worst combination of famous & wealthy you could have. Many people know you, you get dissed for no obvious reasons, everyone wants to be your "friend" or wants to fuck you up and you live in a never ending parody of yourself at some point, because social media has no after-work hours. As a girl playing the hottie-card, you'll likely have a lot of annoying fans, many disgusting offers and even get stalked by some psycho here and there.


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## bostjan (Jun 30, 2022)

Lemonbaby said:


> I'd say the single biggest issue with starting any business model based on social media is: you get kind of "famous" before it moves anywhere near a status you could describe as "wealth". That's literally the worst combination of famous & wealthy you could have. Many people know you, you get dissed for no obvious reasons, everyone wants to be your "friend" or wants to fuck you up and you live in a never ending parody of yourself at some point, because social media has no after-work hours. As a girl playing the hottie-card, you'll likely have a lot of annoying fans, many disgusting offers and even get stalked by some psycho here and there.


Psycho fans can strike anyone anywhere. The real tricky part is that a psycho fan can appear like normal fans until the moment they are causing a problem. Who would have forseen what happened to Dime , for instance?

Also, psycho fans are just as bad for any form of public personality as any other. For something like onlyfans, probably, the more defenseless you appear, the more likely you are to have success there, which would compound the issue. But, once again, Dimebag was a prime counterexample how it really doesn't matter what you look like...


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## prlgmnr (Jul 2, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> My biggest concern about having a child doing sex work is the shelf life.


This might be the most unfortunate phrasing I've ever seen.


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## Adieu (Jul 2, 2022)

narad said:


> And how would you feel if your son was paying a girl on onlyfans to do cam stuff? And what if your son was just paying a monthly porn subscription? And what if your son was just looking at free porn online?



Free porn? Yeah why not, that won't give him STDs or me surprise grandkids

Paid porn? Shit... I guess it would involve a very awkward conversation about finding free porn and saving money for something worthwhile... like trucks, toys, or real estate?


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## Adieu (Jul 2, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Psycho fans can strike anyone anywhere. The real tricky part is that a psycho fan can appear like normal fans until the moment they are causing a problem. Who would have forseen what happened to Dime , for instance?
> 
> Also, psycho fans are just as bad for any form of public personality as any other. For something like onlyfans, probably, the more defenseless you appear, the more likely you are to have success there, which would compound the issue. But, once again, Dimebag was a prime counterexample how it really doesn't matter what you look like...



Yeah, you can be a weird super-famous hippie like Lennon or niche trailer trash like Dime (or maybe just some random dude at a bus stop), but if the universe decides to punch your clock, you're done.

Besides, we talk about psycho fans like they're only for famous people. But you can get stalkers in any profession where you interact with the public. Cashiers or baristas can get a psycho stalkers just as easy.


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## Carrion Rocket (Jul 2, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> My biggest concern about having a child doing sex work is the shelf life.


Hello, FBI. Bring the ATF, I heard he has dogs.


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## prlgmnr (Jul 2, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> So if a 19 year old wanted to become an investment banker, and also wanted to get a face tattoo, I'd tell them


to get into crypto?


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## ArtDecade (Jul 2, 2022)

prlgmnr said:


> This might be the most unfortunate phrasing I've ever seen.


Yikes. Yup!


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## BlackMastodon (Jul 3, 2022)

The only thing I have to add is: OnlyFans killed the radio star. 









I'll see myself out.


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## youngthrasher9 (Jul 19, 2022)

Carrion Rocket said:


> Bring the ATF, I heard he has dogs.


Idaho would like a few words lmao.


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## Grindspine (Jul 19, 2022)

Lemonbaby said:


> Hate to sound like the old guy I am, but being wealthier will not make you happier. Doing just about anything for a few bucks is the worst path you can follow. Been there, done that. Stepped back from director level, now just doing my job, spending more time with my family, having more time for my own projects, sports, nature, vacation.
> 
> "We work on jobs we hate, so we can buy shit we don't need to impress people we don't even like."


Yeah, but being poor is also hard as f and living paycheck to paycheck is stressful as hell. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it avoids the stress of being late on rent. Glass half full etc..

Once I had a university level ethics class where we actually did have a great discussion about strip clubs. Many of the views that arose in that conversation (circa 2002) are coming up here as well.

Over the years, my views have been reinforced that yes, a women should have the right to use her prowess or appearance if she so chooses to do so. And although there can be social consequences, there really should not be. The stigma of women choosing to be sexy or men objectifying them and wanting them to be sexy needs to go.


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## dspellman (Jul 20, 2022)

MFB said:


> It may start with the best of intentions, but it's a _slippery_ slope.


*Nudge nudge, wink wink, need I say more?*


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## dspellman (Jul 20, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> Over the years, my views have been reinforced that yes, a women should have the right to use her prowess or appearance if she so chooses to do so. And although there can be social consequences, there really should not be. The stigma of women choosing to be sexy or men objectifying them and wanting them to be sexy needs to go.



Fooey. Women have traded on their looks to get any talent they may have noticed forever. 
It's a bit more in your face as social mores loosen, but a quick gander at YouTube will tell you what sells (gains subscribers) and what doesn't.


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## jaxadam (Jul 20, 2022)

I'm Feeling Lucky


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## DarrellM5 (Jul 20, 2022)

I recently became aware of Only Fans due to YouTube shorts of some guy who asks people in supercars what they do for a living. I was amazed at how many attractive young ladies said "Only Fans". I figured porn had to be a part of it for them to be driving around in 1/2 million dollar cars. They're free to do what they want but that stuff sticks with a person for life. A fool and his money are soon parted and there seems to be a lot of fools willing to pay for that stuff.


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## Grindspine (Jul 20, 2022)

DarrellM5 said:


> I recently became aware of Only Fans due to YouTube shorts of some guy who asks people in supercars what they do for a living. I was amazed at how many attractive young ladies said "Only Fans". I figured porn had to be a part of it for them to be driving around in 1/2 million dollar cars. They're free to do what they want but that stuff sticks with a person for life. A fool and his money are soon parted and there seems to be a lot of fools willing to pay for that stuff.


A few years of infamy for the potential of comfortable finances vs slaving at a 9-5 (or multiple jobs) for decades to even break into middle-class; is it even really a question? I remember once being solicited on Yahoo for some sock sniffer to buy my used socks since I had some photos of me being a skateboarder on my profile. Of course, a younger, more naive version of me was like, "no way, that's kinda gross." Looking back, now it's like, "that could have been a cash cow to help me through college!"


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## Lemonbaby (Jul 21, 2022)

DarrellM5 said:


> I recently became aware of Only Fans due to YouTube shorts of some guy who asks people in supercars what they do for a living. I was amazed at how many attractive young ladies said "Only Fans". I figured porn had to be a part of it for them to be driving around in 1/2 million dollar cars.



You don't seriously believe any of that staged bullshit, do you?


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## DarrellM5 (Jul 21, 2022)

Lemonbaby said:


> You don't seriously believe any of that staged bullshit, do you?



I haven't really put that much thought into it; I just found it interesting. The comments for those YouTube Shorts seem to feature a bunch of people familiar with the featured person's Only Fans site. I guess they could rent an expensive supercar, put an attractive young lady in it, and film a quick video.


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## BlackMastodon (Jul 22, 2022)

I think it's safe to assume every single person in Instagram and YouTube videos with an expensive car/private jet/huge mansion/any sort of flex, is just renting that shit specifically to shoot the video. The people that actually have any of that stuff is probably a drop in the bucket.


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## Winspear (Jul 22, 2022)

That's most definitely a thing of course. But on the flipside, (and not to imply that a_ large _percentage of models are making so much money), I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that people potentially making £20-50k a month would legitimately buy a nice car


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## mongey (Jul 24, 2022)

We live in an age where people are empowered to make their own life choices and be themselves. If someone is confident and comfortable enough to use only fans than power to them. I don’t see how that degrades from another part of their life. 

It’s def an interesting platform. I haven’t used it but trawl through the nsfw threads on Reddit and basically every post is an ad for a OF site. It can’t have that much longevity.


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## Hollowway (Jul 24, 2022)

mongey said:


> We live in an age where people are empowered to make their own life choices and be themselves. If someone is confident and comfortable enough to use only fans than power to them. I don’t see how that degrades from another part of their life.


It's not that it SHOULD degrade from another part of their life. It's whether it DOES. As much as we, as a planet, are more open to embracing who we really are than ever before, there is still a huge portion of the population who frowns on this. There are numerous stories in the news of OF people getting "outed" and having it adversely affect their career or societal standing. My concern is not whether it should, but whether people are open to changing their opinion fast enough that it doesn't have a negative effect on the OF users, and whether there is still a knee jerk reaction in people - even those who might be more open once they stop and think about it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 24, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> It's not that it SHOULD degrade from another part of their life. It's whether it DOES. As much as we, as a planet, are more open to embracing who we really are than ever before, there is still a huge portion of the population who frowns on this. There are numerous stories in the news of OF people getting "outed" and having it adversely affect their career or societal standing. My concern is not whether it should, but whether people are open to changing their opinion fast enough that it doesn't have a negative effect on the OF users, and whether there is still a knee jerk reaction in people - even those who might be more open once they stop and think about it.



I think that's too broad to really say. 

I'm an unshaven, long haired, metal dude with tons of tattoos and piercings, and wear Cannibal Corpse, Dying Fetus, and Cattle Decapitation shirts to work, which is in a giant brewery. I could probably do whatever, short of something criminal, and no one would care. 

But if I was a fifth grade teacher in a catholic school in a conservative area...eh, it probably wouldn't go as well. 

Everyone's situation is different.


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## mmr007 (Jul 24, 2022)

So….is that why everyone is arguing that the At the Gates guitarist is such a creep?…because he was giving away dick pics when he should have been charging a subscription?


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## mongey (Jul 25, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> It's not that it SHOULD degrade from another part of their life. It's whether it DOES. As much as we, as a planet, are more open to embracing who we really are than ever before, there is still a huge portion of the population who frowns on this. There are numerous stories in the news of OF people getting "outed" and having it adversely affect their career or societal standing. My concern is not whether it should, but whether people are open to changing their opinion fast enough that it doesn't have a negative effect on the OF users, and whether there is still a knee jerk reaction in people - even those who might be more open once they stop and think about it.


If you go down that path than you need to accept it may bite you in other areas. You’ll gain some fans , and you might lose some. 

Ultimately the masses have as much choice to dislike what you do , as you have the right to do it. It goes both ways. 

Tl;Dr fuck the haters. Do your thing and live with it.


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## Lemonbaby (Jul 25, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm an unshaven, long haired, metal dude with tons of tattoos and piercings, and wear Cannibal Corpse, Dying Fetus, and Cattle Decapitation shirts to work, which is in a giant brewery. I could probably do whatever, short of something criminal, and no one would care.



Link to your Onlyfans page please!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 25, 2022)

Lemonbaby said:


> Link to your Onlyfans page please!



You don't have to be a fan of At The Gates to see my dick pic.


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## JimF (Aug 19, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You don't have to be a fan of At The Gates to see my dick pic.



I don't think Stallhammer had that qualifier either tbh


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