# 12" Full range flat response speakers? (not cabinets, actual speakers)



## teamSKDM

So i want to eliminate the process of micing amp cabs ( in my experience ive never been happy with a micd tone, whether its mine or someone elses it just sucks and IMO direct via axe fx just sounds the best) i dont want to go directly to the PA with no sort of cabinet along with me on stage because of loss of stage volume,and even the aesthetic part for those who know nothing of gear and are like wtf where are his amps lol. anyways, so im trying to build a 2x12 or possibly 4x12 cab or 2 2x12 cabs, so that the tone coming out of my cab will be relatively the same as the tone coming out of the PA system. is there anywhere i can buy just the speakers themselves that will give me an accurate tone of PA speakers? Im trying to avoid having to buy PA speakers on craigslist and salvaging the speakers from them.


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## Lokasenna

A guitar cabinet isn't built the same as a PA cabinet, so you're not going to get the exact same sound.

That said, your best bet is a coaxial setup like this:
Eminence Beta-12CX 12" Coaxial Driver
Eminence PXB2:2K5CX 2-Way Speaker Crossover Board 2,500 Hz
Eminence ASD1001 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI


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## teamSKDM

Well, im aware of that. But I dont plan on building a traditional guitar cabinet, i want to experiment with some designs. And thank you for the reccoemndations! will check them out. anyone else? 

again, the key goal is finding actual individual speakers that will sound the same out of the speakers, as well as the speakers in the venue PA system.

I Noticed that eminence makes replacement speakers for PA's , so it sparked my interest to use these for building the cab?

I guess what im gonna go for, is to try to build a colorless PA 2x12 , with the aesthetic of a guitar cabinet.


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## 7stg

Check out fEARful cabs. They have several DIY plans that are well researched. Their 12/6/1 would fit the bill. Accugroove has some options that could give ideas too.

I have a list of speakers here Quest for Tone - Amplifying Extended Range Guitars I am working on expanding it, maybe done next weekend.


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## SeditiousDissent

I'm probably wrong, but aren't the EV guitar drivers considered FRFR speakers? I've heard that you can swap out 12" PA speakers with them.


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## Baelzebeard

EV evm's are passable as PA speakers, but are not full range by themselves without adding a high frequency driver.

Coaxial drivers are a great option if you want to strictly stick with a 2x12 form factor. I have a Radian 12" coax driver in a bass rig, and it's great. I've also used EV coax drivers for compact stage monitors for a couple years now, and they're great too.

Radian Audio 5312 Coaxial Speakers - Radian 12" coaxial speakers. Radian 5312 coaxial speaker - Radian 5312 coaxial speaker handles 500 watts RMS. Radian 5312 12" coaxial driver is available here. Radian coaxial speakers.

Electro-Voice - EV 920-8B | Performance Audio


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## 7stg

To be clear, there is no standard 12 inch speaker that is full range. It is best to pair a 12 that can extend deep with a 6 inch mid and a horn, this will deliver full range. Having a 6 inch mid driver helps with good mids so long as a well designed crossover is used. There are 12s that are cleaner, tighter, more flat, and less prone to speaker breakup than the typical guitar speaker.

There is this 12 with a built in horn http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=3556006&folderId=22488&name=DLFE-8515.pdf can't say if it's any good or not.


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## Winspear

7stg said:


> Check out fEARful cabs. They have several DIY plans that are well researched. Their 12/6/1 would fit the bill. Accugroove has some options that could give ideas too.
> 
> I have a list of speakers here Quest for Tone - Amplifying Extended Range Guitars I am working on expanding it, maybe done next weekend.





7stg said:


> To be clear, there is no standard 12 inch speaker that is full range. It is best to pair a 12 that can extend deep with a 6 inch mid and a horn, this will deliver full range. Having a 6 inch mid driver helps with good mids so long as a well designed crossover is used. There are 12s that are cleaner, tighter, more flat, and less prone to speaker breakup than the typical guitar speaker.


 Yup


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## teamSKDM

You guys are awesome, any other suggestions are welcome!


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## teamSKDM

can someone point me in the direction of some FRFR (keyboard amps are typically frfr correct?) that I also would like to use as a contruction reference? loaded with at least 2 12" speakers please and thank you for all who have helped!


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## jvms

You were asking for a way to build a FRFR rig with the looks of a traditional cab right? I'm also really interested in that. If anyone has any idea how to do that, please, let me know.


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## 7stg

Honestly, fEARful is the way to go fEARful enclosures for bass/drums/keys. They give the design for a solid cabinet with the right volume and porting for the speakers used and it is braced really well. They also give designs for the 3 way crossover. It's gonna take a lot of work and knowledge to do better. At least read their fourms and the threads at talk bass that go over their design. It will get to lower 40's frequency response wise. Accugroove's Estate is the best I know of hitting 35Hz -3db and 29Hz -6db.


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## teamSKDM

Markbass - New York 122

according to the site, the markbass new york 122 altho a bass cabinet, is a FRFR cab as well? Any comment on this? sorry for constantly bumping this thread guys, but hopefully itll be helpful to a few fellas out there.

How common are FRFR bass cabinets?


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## 7stg

If I was going to use a bass cab I would get a 3 or 4 way cab like one of the following:

AccuGroove El Whappo 39Hz - 18kHz 36Hz -6db
Acme Bass Low B-2 41Hz-22 kHz ±3 dB 31Hz -6 dB
Carvin BRX15.3 35Hz - 18KHz ±5dB
fEARful 12/6/1 down to about 45-46Hz -3dB graph of low end - shelf extension, lower tuning
Genz Benz GB 1288T-UQ 45Hz - 18kHz ±10db

Having the mid driver helps get better mids which is beneficial for guitar and 6+ string basses.


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## teamSKDM

7stg, youre awesome my man.

also, what I cant seem to find an answer for , is will any of the amps you listed if i run my axe fx into any of them, will i get a sound that will be about the same as the sound coming out of the house PA system? Thats the ultimate goal in this project.


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## 7stg

They are cabs. I am creating a list of power amps at the moment. So far Crown and Yamaha are good. The Crown DriveCore Install (DCI) Analog 2|300 or 2|600 is the higher end top contender so far. Some have very high wattage, they require special power plugs different from the standard nema-5-15 check specs for consumption 1800 watts max for 15 amp and 2400 watts max for 20 amp with different ohm load output power varies. Look for better than .5 variance frequency response, 105 SNR, .1 THD, 70db crosstalk, damping factor still researching while higher is good after 360 for the ways I have seen calculated did not offer improvement and some methods show 50 is enough. Speaker cable has a big effect on damping get 8-10 awg cable with low resistance and capacitance.


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## Lokasenna

teamSKDM said:


> Markbass - New York 122
> 
> according to the site, the markbass new york 122 altho a bass cabinet, is a FRFR cab as well? Any comment on this? sorry for constantly bumping this thread guys, but hopefully itll be helpful to a few fellas out there.
> 
> How common are FRFR bass cabinets?



Bass cabinets are generally closer to FRFR than guitar cabs, since they need to handle a wider frequency range. That said, I haven't the faintest idea how close a good bass cab is to proper FRFR.


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## Winspear

^ Not massively, especially if it doesn't have a tweeter. The fearful plans with tweeters are definitely the best option here imo with their kits and build plans! Insanely well designed systems.


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## teamSKDM

OK UPDATE!! so according to the guys at celestion, i told them what im doing. They said to use the k12h 200 tc which they said has a fairly flat response until it reaches 10k which is dialed out in guitars altogether most of the time. Ive purchased two of these and a 2x12 cabinet from seismic audio as I've heard good reviews on their cabinets. Once these come in ill plassemble it and a/b it to my studio monitors and hopefully can a/b it to my friends matrix full range cabinet.


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## jbealsmusic

teamSKDM said:


> im trying to build a 2x12 or possibly 4x12 cab or 2 2x12 cabs, so that the tone coming out of my cab will be relatively the same as the tone coming out of the PA system.


Unfortunately, that will not work, for too many reasons to list here. Hopefully some of the following comments will elaborate a little.



> is there anywhere i can buy just the speakers themselves that will give me an accurate tone of PA speakers? Im trying to avoid having to buy PA speakers on craigslist and salvaging the speakers from them.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but building a DIY FRFR speaker cab will cost nearly as much (if not more) than any decent one from a store and it most likely will not be as accurate.

That is, unless you have a good understanding of proper cabinet construction and the related physics to tune the box correctly. If you search around, you can find free speaker cabinet design software that does all the hard work for you, though I can't vouch for how accurate the end result will be.



Lokasenna said:


> A guitar cabinet isn't built the same as a PA cabinet, so you're not going to get the exact same sound.


This can't be emphasized enough!



> your best bet is a coaxial setup like this:
> Eminence Beta-12CX 12" Coaxial Driver
> Eminence PXB2:2K5CX 2-Way Speaker Crossover Board 2,500 Hz
> Eminence ASD1001 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI


This is a good combo to start with. For a first build, I'd suggest trying these in a properly tuned 1x12 enclosure. I emphasize the "properly tuned" portion of that comment. Assuming real FRFR accuracy is your goal, the size, dimensions, treatment, material, construction, and porting (if any) of the box are just as important (if not moreso) than the quality of the drivers used.



teamSKDM said:


> can someone point me in the direction of some FRFR (keyboard amps are typically frfr correct?) that I also would like to use as a contruction reference? loaded with at least 2 12" speakers


The tuning of the box is dependant on the driver(s) loaded in the box. If you copy a box design, you'll also need to use the exact same driver(s) and crossover.

If you really want it for the look but would prefer to DIY it, I suggest making your life a lot easier by building something that looks like a 2x12 or 4x12 and tune it for one driver (the Eminence coaxial combo listed above.)

If you want to save a lot of time (and likely also money), there are a lot of good FRFR options already out there. Some of them are designed to look like traditional guitar cabs too... Since you're an Axe-fx user, check out their forums. Tons of info and suggestions for FRFR setups.

Another option is to go direct to the PA and use a small floor monitor for your own stage volume, but put empty 4x12s in the background to keep the "look".

Good luck!


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## metaljon

teamSKDM said:


> OK UPDATE!! so according to the guys at celestion, i told them what im doing. They said to use the k12h 200 tc which they said has a fairly flat response until it reaches 10k which is dialed out in guitars altogether most of the time. Ive purchased two of these and a 2x12 cabinet from seismic audio as I've heard good reviews on their cabinets. Once these come in ill plassemble it and a/b it to my studio monitors and hopefully can a/b it to my friends matrix full range cabinet.


How did this work out for you? I'm looking to do almost the exact same thing, but with a 1x12" from Seismic. Same speaker, though.


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## teamSKDM

metaljon said:


> How did this work out for you? I'm looking to do almost the exact same thing, but with a 1x12" from Seismic. Same speaker, though.




Im just now seeing this sorry about that. I havent had the opportunity to use both the cabinet AND a PA system yet, however I can say im very very happily pleased with the sound of the cabinet. much more tonal control than using the axe fx with guitar speakers and the cab sims off.


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