# Is the age of 4x12 dead?



## TheFireSky5150 (Feb 23, 2018)

Is 2x12 the new hotness? Who really needs a 4×12? Most venues large enough to require that much ooomf already have PA's. Whats your thought?


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 23, 2018)

412s haven't really been necessary since decent pa systems appeared decades ago. But they're cool and they're iconic, so people will continue to buy them, just like they continue to buy the same guitar designs that have existed since the 50s.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 23, 2018)

I definitely think the sun is setting on them as far as live sound, but they'll never be gone for band practice and in studio.


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## NinjaRaf (Feb 23, 2018)

I don't think they will ever be gone forever from any band environment...live, practice, or studio. A lot of bands still have the whole "half stack looks better" thing, its more professional looking, whatever. Personally, we just decided that we would run 212s live. Getting old is not kind, and my back cant take lifting a 125 pound cab in and out of a car twice a week. Lots of people are realizing the practicality of a 212, and also the cost savings of buying a 212 vs a 412. Hell, I just bought another Avatar 212 for $430 shipped. The 412 version would have cost double that, and this cab is going to sit in a closet in my home studio and be used for recording. Its oversized cab, so itll still get that low end depth of a bigger cab, just saves me a lot of space, and speaker replacement if I want to swap speakers. Lots of reasons to have multiple cabs of different sizes. I personally have a couple 212s and a couple 412s. I do still like 412s, nothing like 4 speakers punching you with air, but its not always the best or most necessary or practical option.


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## scrub (Feb 23, 2018)

im using 1x12s


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## Shoeless_jose (Feb 23, 2018)

Seems like it unfortunately. They will never go away completely but they are not the dominant cab anymore. I would switch to a 2x12 but it would cost me more to buy a decent 2x12 even used, than I could sell my Marshall 4x12 for.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 23, 2018)

I think that they still have relevance, but maybe not necessity.
I've felt that way for a number of years though. As a FOH & Recording Engineer, I've always worked from that end of the room to get the stage SPL pushing out to the front to a lower level to facilitate a better live mix. Modelling has helped that, so has the increased usage of "in ear" monitoring.
When I quit touring in Jan 2002, I had ditched my 4x12 cabs down to a 2x12 fired in like side fills on each side of the stage. FOH loved this, and no matter where I was on stage, I could hear myself quite well to the point that the enter frontline of the stage was one long linear sweet spot, as opposed to the fewer sweet spots I had when running my 4x12's in a backline.

As long as there is a backline, there will be 4x12's and other larger cabs like the bass players use, but, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the greatest fidelity for the audience.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2018)

I bought a Mesa Dual Recto Full Stack back in the late 1990's, and I was so proud, thinking my musical career had just opened up to all sort of new opportunities. I used that full stack live all of three times. It's just too damned much for pretty much any indoor venue and even most outdoor situations. It sounds great and you get a great feeling playing through it, but it's just too much sound. I used a single 412 for a number of years after that, but even by, like 2004 or 2005, nobody else was using 412 cabs. A few years ago, I downsized to a 212 with neodymium drivers and an open back and it's just much more user-friendly. For one, those old 412 oversized Mesa cabs were like 130-140 lbs, each. For two, they are a bear to load into a car. For three, they don't sound as good unless they are cranked to beyond-ear-bleed-and-into-skin-peeling volume level.

I'll still keep them around for studio use, mainly because I just feel that much more badass playing through them, but the 212 is where it's at for most gigs...hell, those are probably even way too big. A friend of mine just dumped his entire rig for an AxeFX that he can plug directly into the board, and his bass player just uses a SansAmp, so they only ever need their board, drums, and a couple powered speakers, and then their instruments and magic boxes. I don't know if that's the trend now, but I don't see why it couldn't be.


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## Spinedriver (Feb 23, 2018)

As long as there are clubs that won't invest in a DEECENT pa, there will always be 4x12 cabs. Back when I was in a band, both myself & the other guitarist had the notion that we could run a Pod XTL into the soundboard for live stuff so we wouldn't have to lug cabs on stage (locally anyway) but no such luck. They pretty much only used the pa for vocals and drums.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 23, 2018)

Now that I use "in ears", no cab on stage, I really do hear my entire monitor mix in the same quality as a feed from something like Pro Tools or similar. I love hearing it in stereo, being able to pan bgv's left & right so I can determine which vocalist to reference for certain parts. 
There's so much more clarity on stage, and more room to move around.


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## bostjan (Feb 23, 2018)

Spinedriver said:


> As long as there are clubs that won't invest in a DEECENT pa, there will always be 4x12 cabs. Back when I was in a band, both myself & the other guitarist had the notion that we could run a Pod XTL into the soundboard for live stuff so we wouldn't have to lug cabs on stage (locally anyway) but no such luck. They pretty much only used the pa for vocals and drums.


If the PA is total garbage, though, then it's still bad for the vocalist. I think the whole "decent PA" thing is more a problem with sound engineers and promoters. If you are stuck using a house system that's that shitty, then chances are that the club is too small for a 412 anyway.


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## Bearitone (Feb 23, 2018)

I think once you've tried a 4x12 (or even two 4x12 cabs) its very hard to go back to a 2x12. It just doesn't sound as full. I tried the Port City OS Vertical 2x12 which at the time everyone was raving "sounds just as big if not BIGGER than a 4x12" and the bottom line is it didn't.

So I guess maybe 4x12's will start going the way side but, I don't think 2x12's will ever replace 4x12's for people looking for "that" sound.

Amps and electronics can keep getting smaller and smaller but, i don't think you can ever shrink cabinets or speakers and get the same results


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## TedEH (Feb 23, 2018)

Maybe Canada is different, but I don't think I've ever been to a show without at least one 4x12. It's pretty rare here for anyone to show up with anything else. The only time I've been on a tour, I went with a 1x12 for space, but ended up using the provided/shared 4x12 at almost every venue anyway.


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## Spinedriver (Feb 23, 2018)

bostjan said:


> If the PA is total garbage, though, then it's still bad for the vocalist. I think the whole "decent PA" thing is more a problem with sound engineers and promoters. If you are stuck using a house system that's that shitty, then chances are that the club is too small for a 412 anyway.



The clubs were fairly small but they would pack 150-200 people in it, so although the vocals were a bit distorted, they were loud enough for the crowd to head. That being said, for the people at the back to hear, a 4x12 up on a couple of milk crates was almost a necessity. Since then though, many clubs have come & gone so it could be that the situation has improved.


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## KailM (Feb 23, 2018)

I just checked my 412 to make sure, and...yep -- it still melts faces and crushes everything in its path. Mine is not going anywhere.


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## lewis (Feb 23, 2018)

Funny because i tried my new kemper profile at practice through my 4x12 and then my 2x12, and the 4x12 sounded tenfold better. 

The 2 does have its uses but nothing sound wise will beat a 4 imo.


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## PBGas (Feb 23, 2018)

I use either my 212 or my 1x12 for gigging these days. I run direct via UA Ox and it is awesome!


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## Humbuck (Feb 23, 2018)

4x12 for me thanks.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Feb 23, 2018)

Hellz no!

I’ve got 4 of them. Nothing sounds and feels like a 4X12. Nothing. No 2X12, no powered monitor, nothing. If it’s too loud, you’re too old. Might as well hang it up altogether.


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## Blasphemer (Feb 23, 2018)

I have a 4x12. I also have a Volvo station wagon and need to cart around my bassists stuff when we play shows, so moving down to a 2x12 was pretty much a necessity. The difference in sound is noticeable, but not a deal breaker, IMO. If a club has a half decent PA, I trust it enough to get my sound to the back row, and leave the first few rows to my cabinets sound


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Feb 23, 2018)

I'm always conscious of the other instruments too. I found that moving to a 2x12 cab from the 4x12 gave a touch more top end available to our bass player so all the clicks/pops/fret noise could come through & that is part of the performance too. Everyone has their own space in the mix, and guitar players & bass players are notorious for attempting to take up too much space.

Carve space for each other, make the whole band sound great.


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## budda (Feb 23, 2018)

This thread is predicated on bands not being loud for the sake of their sound.

Doom bands and some post-X bands don't give a damn if you think 412's are out 

My band is really loud. A 212 won't work. A 212 with a 412 will.

Edit: when car shopping, if it can't carry a 412 I'm not buying it.


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## Moltar (Feb 23, 2018)

We use 2x12's live out of necessity really plus no one wants to move a 4x12. Although my Orange 2x12 is a great cab and sounds quite big, every time we play a show and borrow another bands 4x12s, I just can't help but notice how much better is sounds. Bigger, clearer, sits in the mix better for some reason... Plus we put our 2x12s on their ends when we use them so the speakers are vertical, so the top speaker is about the height of a 4x12. 4x12s just sound better to me.


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## lewis (Feb 24, 2018)

2x12 sounds ok, 4x12 sounds amazing, 6x12?

can I link my 2x12 to my 4x12 and if so, how?
(Laney IRT2x12/Line 6 stereo vintage 30 4x12 with 2 K100s mixed)


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 24, 2018)

lewis said:


> 2x12 sounds ok, 4x12 sounds amazing, 6x12?
> 
> can I link my 2x12 to my 4x12 and if so, how?
> (Laney IRT2x12/Line 6 stereo vintage 30 4x12 with 2 K100s mixed)



Maybe about once a year or so someone comes on here and talks about how they're going to revolutionize cabs by getting a 612 built. 

Well, they rarely come back happy. 

A 412 paired with a 212 can sound really good if mixed properly, but in the room it's not really anything special. You really have to play around with mixing different speakers and configurations to get anything really exceptional. Returns are quick to diminish.


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## pearl_07 (Feb 24, 2018)

The tones I get out of my 2x12 are awesome but as they say, there's no replacement for displacement so I opt for the 4x12 almost every time. In a live setting I generally have a 4x12 on each side of the stage, and that fills the room for most venues that I'm playing at.


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## lewis (Feb 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Maybe about once a year or so someone comes on here and talks about how they're going to revolutionize cabs by getting a 612 built.
> 
> Well, they rarely come back happy.
> 
> A 412 paired with a 212 can sound really good if mixed properly, but in the room it's not really anything special. You really have to play around with mixing different speakers and configurations to get anything really exceptional. Returns are quick to diminish.


hahah really?
Brilliant.
my 2x12 does have a "link" input so to try for fun, do i run into my 2x12s input, then out the link into the 4x12 input?


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## budda (Feb 24, 2018)

612's sound great, they're just a bitch to move.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 24, 2018)

I used to have a pair of old Peavey 412s that we're stacked vertically so each was the height of a full stack. They were monsters but they were beautiful.

Theoretically that's a better arrangement for sound dispersion, which is why big pa speakers tend to be "line arrays".

If I played live I'd use a 112 or a 212. But for noodling around at home you can take my recto 412 when you rip it from my cold, dead fingers.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Feb 24, 2018)

No one has yet mentioned 4X12 for recording. Nothing else sounds and hits like a miced 4X12... despite all the plug-ins, and new digital post fx they have now... no sim/ir or later added fx captures the sound and feel of a real miced 4X12.


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## wakjob (Feb 24, 2018)

I'll never be without at least one 4x12...

but I will say...the resale value and actual selling of 4x12's is financial punch in the face. Better to just keep them or lend them out to someone for their garage/practice room.


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## Kyle Jordan (Feb 24, 2018)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> No one has yet mentioned 4X12 for recording. Nothing else sounds and hits like a miced 4X12... despite all the plug-ins, and new digital post fx they have now... no sim/ir or later added fx captures the sound and feel of a real miced 4X12.



As much as I've wanted to love digital gear and the all-in-one device, this keeps me from doing so. 

That doesn't make me happy either.

Since returning to playing more heavily, I've been planning on various purchases to rebuild my gear in a more specific and useful way. Initially, I was placing real cabinets at the very bottom sans the initial amp upgrade. The past couple of weeks though, I've arrived at the point of realizing that for what I want, cabs will be a necessity, and a 4x12 chief amongst them.


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## Choop (Feb 24, 2018)

Depends on the kind of music being played and really just whatever you feel is more convenient. 4x12's still sound bigger live, but there are plenty of venues where a 2x12 or even 1x12 would work fine. I'd still rock a 4x12 just for a wider sound, even if it's a pain to haul around.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 24, 2018)

I don't believe you can't build a 112 to sound like a 412 micd up.

But I don't know everything.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 24, 2018)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I don't believe you can't build a 112 to sound like a 412 micd up.
> 
> But I don't know everything.



Do it and you'll be a wealthy man. 

A 112 size cabinet that records like a 412 would be killer.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Do it and you'll be a wealthy man.
> 
> A 112 size cabinet that records like a 412 would be killer.



I suppose if it could be done someone would have done it already.


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## gnoll (Feb 24, 2018)

If 4x12s are out I'm glad since that lets me be a badass non-conformist while maintaining awesome tone.


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## sylcfh (Feb 24, 2018)

Not for most touring acts. 

Just get a 2x12 that looks like one. Look at how sexy this is:


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## lewis (Feb 25, 2018)

Well yeah but whats the point? /\
If you are hauling around a cab the same size as a 4x12, why would you then want it to sound like a 2x12?
Haha
Seems totally pointless to me but there you go.
Like people who take 2 weeks worth of clothes in 4 suitcases just for a weekend get away.


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## vick1000 (Feb 25, 2018)

412s usually have much better dispersion and fuller range.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Feb 25, 2018)

Love my Mesa 2x12 but won't be replacing my Trace Elliot 4x12 anytime soon.

Nothing thumps like a 4x12. I prefer the depth it has. 

And I'm not playing out but even if I were I'm a big boy so I'd lug my big boy cab around.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Feb 25, 2018)

Love my Mesa 2x12 but won't be replacing my Trace Elliot 4x12 anytime soon.

Nothing thumps like a 4x12. I prefer the depth it has. 

And I'm not playing out but even if I were I'm a big boy so I'd lug my big boy cab around.


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## lewis (Feb 25, 2018)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> Love my Mesa 2x12 but won't be replacing my Trace Elliot 4x12 anytime soon.
> 
> Nothing thumps like a 4x12. I prefer the depth it has.
> 
> And I'm not playing out but even if I were I'm a big boy so I'd lug my big boy cab around.


Yeah this /\
I used to love the idea of going direct and forgetting cabs.
Boy was i wrong. 2nd i got a great 4x12 (and 2x12) i never want to go direct again.
I love my kemper but to my ears, it sounds infintely better into a 4x12

Edit: i mean never want to go direct again for hearing myself. I have no issue with the crowd hearing a direct sound but i need to hear a real cab behind me live.


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## mnemonic (Feb 25, 2018)

Guys plz stop, I’ve only ever run 2x12’s and purposely haven’t bought a 4x12 since I don’t want to dislike my 2x12. 

Also my car is small and it won’t fit.


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## Andromalia (Feb 25, 2018)

I don't use my 4x12 any longer but it makes for a very good thematic TV stand.


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## Shask (Feb 25, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Guys plz stop, I’ve only ever run 2x12’s and purposely haven’t bought a 4x12 since I don’t want to dislike my 2x12.
> 
> Also my car is small and it won’t fit.


Yeah, lol. I have never actually owned a 412 cab to keep at home, and always had two 212 cabs. I think I would prefer a 412 cab, but I just don't have the room for it.


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## Shask (Feb 25, 2018)

lewis said:


> Yeah this /\
> I used to love the idea of going direct and forgetting cabs.
> Boy was i wrong. 2nd i got a great 4x12 (and 2x12) i never want to go direct again.
> I love my kemper but to my ears, it sounds infintely better into a 4x12
> ...



See, this is hard for me also. I mostly use my Axe-FX II into a poweramp and 212 cabs. I have tried and tried to play it into monitors, headphones, computer, etc.... but I just can't do it. It never sounds and feels right, regardless of how much I mess with IRs. I have even considered getting a nice FRFR, like Friedman or CLR, but I just feel like it would be another let down...... at the same time, I feel like there is more tweaking hell when using real cabs....


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## Moltar (Feb 25, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Guys plz stop, I’ve only ever run 2x12’s and purposely haven’t bought a 4x12 since I don’t want to dislike my 2x12.
> 
> Also my car is small and it won’t fit.



I feel the same way. I want a 4x12 badly but don't want to deal with it. But a good 4x12 just sounds sooo good.


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## Mprinsje (Feb 25, 2018)

i've got 2 slanted 412's and they aren't going anywhere. Actually looking to get a 3rd one, a straight marshall or orange. Hasn't got any priority but i do really like them. It's not just the sound, it's a bit of the visual aspect too.

Should note that i didn't buy the 2nd 412 on purpose though, it came with a marshall jcm800. it didn't say anywhere in the ad that the 412 was included but i'm hardly going to say no to what's essentially a free speaker cab.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 25, 2018)

For the hobbyist, the part time guys, etc? Probably. For the big time guys? Not exactly, but seems less and less practical. I kind of wish I had a 212, a 30-50w pedal sized poweramp, and pedal preamp.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Feb 26, 2018)

Yeah a 2x12 cab is cool, but have you ever played through a pair of 4x12 cabs?  that's my main/home setup and I have no intention of changing that. I'd definitely go back to one amp and one cab if I joined a gigging band again, though. No crowd at a local club is gonna give a rat about a stereo rig anyway 

For a while, I thought I'd save some effort and gig with a 2x12 Mesa and sell the 4x12 Orange I had before it. It was a step in the right direction since I found I prefer the darker Mesa V30 character, but I wasn't truly happy until I picked up my Mesa 4x12 Stiletto. More depth, more air, more good.


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## rexbinary (Feb 26, 2018)

I just went though a huge debate with myself trying to decide if I was going with the matching 412 or 212 when I purchased my 5150 III 50w EL34 amp. I was heavily leaning towards the 412. I ended up purchasing the 212, and I've been very happy with it, but this thread is like messing with my head. I can already foresee me being the guy with the 612.


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## sylcfh (Feb 26, 2018)

lewis said:


> Well yeah but whats the point? /\
> If you are hauling around a cab the same size as a 4x12, why would you then want it to sound like a 2x12?
> Haha
> Seems totally pointless to me but there you go.
> Like people who take 2 weeks worth of clothes in 4 suitcases just for a weekend get away.




2 neodymium speakers. 47lbs.


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 26, 2018)

I jam out of 112 and 212 cabs mostly at home because they’re easy to wheel around, but for shows and practice, I always bring a 412. My Marshall is loaded with 2 GT75’s and some Eminence Neodymium (Lil Texas) speakers, so it is pretty light weight already. I’d like to find two more neos that sonically resemble a K100 type and have all 4 be neo.


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## EmaDaCuz (Feb 26, 2018)

Yes and no. I think the major problem with big cabs, and in general equipment, is weight and space. If you are touring, even locally, carrying around a 4x12 and a 4U rack or a a head may become a nuisance.
With my band, we have 4x12 (for guitars) and 4x10 (for bass) in the practice room. At home we tend to practice via a small PA. Live we just bring 1x12 and bass go straight to the desk.

The sound of a 4x12 is unbeatable, but back pain is even more unbeatable when it kicks in... and if you are not a young guy anymore, back pain is behind the corner


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## feraledge (Feb 26, 2018)

I was hard pressed to go from full stack to half stack when touring. I have a 2x12" now, but first thing I would do when live playing becomes an option again is score another 4x12". Nothing compares. Longest piece of gear I had to date was my Marshall 1960BV, spent a long 20 years together and it's one of the few things I felt at all sentimental about.
I do have to agree that there's something intrinsically pleasing about a 4x12" with a 2x12". I was running that for a while too and might have loved it more than a full stack, but the cabs were matched better than the full (Peavey 6505 cab as the second cab, they sound okay with a Peavey, at the time I was running a Dual Rec. 2x12" was an Orange-style Avatar.).


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## mnemonic (Feb 26, 2018)

Get on that weightlifting tip, EVM-loaded 4x12 on your back, triple recto under one arm, rack under the other.


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## feraledge (Feb 26, 2018)

It might be wrong, but I also see having to lug 4x12s around on tour and at shows as a right of passage. I think it might be reason for my innate distaste for profilers. If I want to just hear a band simply execute their music, I'll listen to the album. If I want to feel their music, I'll see them live.


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## chopeth (Feb 26, 2018)

yeah, as someone said, don't care for the fuller range or the headroom if I have to be high on valium because of my several hernias after dealing with the weight of a 4x12. So, sadly for me at least, my evh 5153 with 2x12 cab is just as good.


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## lewis (Feb 26, 2018)

how do we join cabs if Im using an amp head as a poweramp with only 1 effects loop?

one of my cabs (2x12) has 1 input, and 1 Link input to join up to others. And my other cab (4x12) is a mono/stereo cab with 2 inputs too obv.

would I run amp power > 2x12 input > 2nd cable out of link > 4x12 input ?

EDIT:
Im also fine with weight of stuff as long as It will fit in a car.
Especially if it gives me MY sound.


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## 4Eyes (Feb 26, 2018)

lewis said:


> how do we join cabs if Im using an amp head as a poweramp with only 1 effects loop?
> 
> one of my cabs (2x12) has 1 input, and 1 Link input to join up to others. And my other cab (4x12) is a mono/stereo cab with 2 inputs too obv.
> 
> ...


check manual for your amp - usually there is a section describing how to connect multiple cabs to your amp using it's outputs - if your amp does have several of them (4/8/16Ohm). if that's not the case, then check your 2x12 cab manual, how is link output wired and what cab you need to use to safely connect your cabs to the amp.


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## cGoEcYk (Feb 26, 2018)

4x12 is still great gear for the stage player although the full stack 2x 4x12 (sorry about the maffs) might be getting outdated.

I use a 2x12 and enjoy the more compact size and loud-enough capabilities. I also kind of like driving the speakers/cab a bit.

On bass I use 2x whatever my guitarist is using. I like being able to drown out the whole band or at least the guitarist.


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 26, 2018)

lewis said:


> how do we join cabs if Im using an amp head as a poweramp with only 1 effects loop?



I’m guessing you mean speaker output. Effects loops play no role in running cabs. As long as the amp has a selectable transformer tap (16-8-4 type) you’re fine. If you’re 412 is 8 ohm and the 212 is 8 ohm, then they total a 4 ohm load. If one is 8 ohm and one is 16, then it’s a 5.333 ohm load and you’d still use the 4 ohm tap. 16 and 16 uses the 8 ohm tap. Just use a speaker cable from the speaker out to the fist cab, out of that cab into the second


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## jsmalleus (Feb 26, 2018)

I stopped hauling around the 4x12's and swapped to a Randall RD212-UV a couple years ago. No regrets at all. It's still somewhat hefty (probably 2/3 as heavy as a 4x12) but saves space in the car and on stage and is more manageable.

I end up hauling the bass cab, lights, and sometimes my other guitarist's gear in addition to my gear, and I don't dilly dally loading/unloading or getting on/off stage, so I like that I can throw it around or take it right up a flight of stairs myself without pause. Being able to see out my back window while driving is nice too.

4x12's rule the jam space and studio for sure, but I'm happy to leave them there when it comes time to pack up. I don't think my sound suffers with the 2x12 at indoor clubs, and I'm also sure for gigs where the sound guy or promoter wants things backlined and we're towards the end of the lineup, the other bands appreciate that we use two 2x12's as opposed to that other band that backlined the two full stacks at a 300 person capacity venue while half the opening band members play on the floor.


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## frogman81 (Feb 26, 2018)

Having never owned a 412 I will not try to express an opinion but I’m reading these replies with a healthy dose of skepticism. Is there any science/physics behind what everyone seems to be experiencing? I would like to buy a nice cab after I can sequester off some space in the house, and wondered if I really needed a 212 over a 112.


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## frogman81 (Feb 26, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Having never owned a 412 I will not try to express an opinion but I’m reading these replies with a healthy dose of skepticism. Is there any science/physics behind what everyone seems to be experiencing? I would like to buy a nice cab after I can sequester off some space in the house, and wondered if I really needed a 212 over a 112.



Ok having done a big of research on my own it seems that having a larger cab equates to a lower resonant frequency. So playing through a 412 would be naturally bassier than something smaller. I’m a little surprised given most of ss.org’s taste for mid-heavy tone, but it makes more sense to me now.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 27, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Ok having done a big of research on my own it seems that having a larger cab equates to a lower resonant frequency. So playing through a 412 would be naturally bassier than something smaller. I’m a little surprised given most of ss.org’s taste for mid-heavy tone, but it makes more sense to me now.


From what I remember, having a larger cab generally means lower resonant frequency *for the same number/area of drivers (speakers)*. If you made a 412 but only cut 2 holes in it and put in two drivers, it would have a peak frequency lower than the same cab with 4 drivers.

You really should be able to get the same frequency response from a 112 as a 412. There could be different time-domain stuff that I don't know about, though (google "speaker waterfall plots").


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## lewis (Feb 27, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> I’m guessing you mean speaker output. Effects loops play no role in running cabs. As long as the amp has a selectable transformer tap (16-8-4 type) you’re fine. If you’re 412 is 8 ohm and the 212 is 8 ohm, then they total a 4 ohm load. If one is 8 ohm and one is 16, then it’s a 5.333 ohm load and you’d still use the 4 ohm tap. 16 and 16 uses the 8 ohm tap. Just use a speaker cable from the speaker out to the fist cab, out of that cab into the second


Yeah i should have been more clear.

I use a non powered kemper running into effects loop of my randall head for power then out the randall into a cab.


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## feraledge (Feb 27, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Is there any science/physics behind what everyone seems to be experiencing?


A 4x12" is two times as many speakers as a 2x12", science aside, it's math. If you haven't played a 4x12" before then it might sound like some tonal debate. There's something to it, but it's really just the power of it. I think any serious guitarist needs to play through a full stack at least once. I got to go through three 4x12"s personally before, it was fucking great. Strongly recommend.


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 27, 2018)

lewis said:


> Yeah i should have been more clear.
> 
> I use a non powered kemper running into effects loop of my randall head for power then out the randall into a cab.


All good. Same thing applies. Run the kemper into the effects return, and pick the speaker impedance that matches the total cab load


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## Shask (Feb 27, 2018)

frogman81 said:


> Having never owned a 412 I will not try to express an opinion but I’m reading these replies with a healthy dose of skepticism. Is there any science/physics behind what everyone seems to be experiencing? I would like to buy a nice cab after I can sequester off some space in the house, and wondered if I really needed a 212 over a 112.



More space in the cab means more bass frequencies, more speakers have more comb filtering effects, more speakers means more surface area pushing more sound vibrations, which can translate to feel, etc....


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## EverDream (Feb 27, 2018)

I actually play through a 21x12 and then I magically sound like Rush every time!


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## kingpinMS3 (Feb 27, 2018)

Crate or not, anyone remember this thing?

I need it in my life...


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## Womb raider (Feb 27, 2018)

This is how you get all the toanz.


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## MASS DEFECT (Feb 27, 2018)

While you guys are debating if the age of 4x12s are over, Im just here thinking of getting a diagonal/vertical 2x12 that is ALMOST THE SAME SIZE as a 4x12. lol FML.


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## goobaba (Feb 27, 2018)

4x12's feel great to play through but the extra volume over a 2x12 let alone a 1x12 is 100% unnecessary. A 50w tube head through a 1x12 can easily play over a loud drummer, and if there is a PA the point is moot. 

4x12's have been a penis measuring contest since the late 60's and I think people are finally getting over it.


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## Tysonimmortal (Feb 27, 2018)

My band just started using 2 6x12's and an 8x10 for bass. So it equals out to be like hauling 3 8x10's everytime you play. Builds character.


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## bnzboy (Feb 27, 2018)

I think 412 will never die but that goes the same with the lower back for some of us. I am perfectly content with my mesa compact 212. In fact, I want to go lighter and may look into getting the new Orange vertical 212 cab. I don't even care about "the thumping tone" anymore at this point as long as the quality of the tone is not compromised too much and save my lower back to find the right medium. The Marshall 412 I had with my valvestate amp was surprisingly manageable weight wise though.


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## Shoeless_jose (Feb 27, 2018)

When I was 20 I had the biggest gas for the mesa 4x12 with 2x12 on top. I had the oversized 4x12, ended up selling it off cause I found this special edition Marshall 4x12 blue tolex with wheat grille. it was sick, then crashed my car and sold that.

If I could build a dream rig it would still be the Mesa 6x12 stack.


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## DudeManBrother (Feb 27, 2018)

I think I have a new cab idea. I’ll make 3x12 cabinets. It’ll be a sealed 2x12 on the bottom and a ported 1x12 on top, but in a single box basically the size of a 4x12. I’d wire 2 8 ohm speakers in series for the bottom, and use a 16 ohm speaker for the ported upper half. It could run 16 ohm stereo or 8 ohm mono. I’d use a braced sheet of 1/4” birch ply to separate the upper and lower sound chambers. Neo mags will keep weight down. Maybe bracing to stabilize a 1/2” birch shell would work too. Hmmm...


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## eggy in a bready (Feb 28, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> This is how you get all the toanz.


yeah but


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## eggy in a bready (Feb 28, 2018)

also, doom metal called and they were like "nah"


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## Leberbs (Feb 28, 2018)

Loved my Mesa 4x12, but it was too much to handle on my own and too damn loud for bedroom jams. Went to a 1x12,
I had the 4x12 up on reverb for about 8months and on various facebook groups for 2yrs+. I even went to the shop where I bought it in 2009 and they wouldn't give me cash nor store credit. Only place that would take it was guitar center. 

For SW LA and SE Texas, 4x12s are definitely being lowered into the grave as far as I can tell.


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## Semi-pro (Feb 28, 2018)

I do love the sound of my EVH half stack accompanied by a Mesa 4x12", but after seeing that photo that eggy posted for the gazillionth time, I'm thinking, f*** it - I'll just switch to my Mark V 1x12" combo. The bigger the stage the better the statement


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## FILTHnFEAR (Feb 28, 2018)

I'd trade my Mess OS 2x12 right now for a 4x12.

And not think twice.


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## Durtal (Feb 28, 2018)

Pretty much every smaller metal gig I've been to the last few years still had bands using 4x12s. I have never seen a black or death metal band gig with a 2x12 or 1x12.


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## Zender (Feb 28, 2018)

As a very recent procurer of a 212, I'd say a 412 is just to big for home use. They're nice and all that, and sound huge... but they are huge as well, and can weigh a lot. 212 is about as big as I would go. And I'm a metal guy.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 28, 2018)

My 412 is like my Hammond Organ - it's big and beautiful, but it's a piece of furniture and I'll not be doing any gigging with it any time soon.


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## KailM (Mar 1, 2018)

What I don't get is the people who say a 412 is "too loud" for home use. Is someone holding a gun to their head and saying "turn the [email protected](&er to 10, or else"? Mine does fine at low volumes, but then again, I'm not an idiot and I know where my volume knob is located and which way to turn it for lower volume.  This seems to be a foreign concept to some.

No joke, it's actually quite nice to sit down right in front of a 412 with the amp turned down. You're right in line with the speakers so you can hear all the frequencies clearly, without needing to fill the room as much as you'd need with a 1 or 2 x 12 on the floor. Plus there's that extra depth that comes from the bigger cab space.

I have a foldable dolly I use when moving mine. It's easy. A 10 year old roadie'd for me last time I played out. He had no trouble with my cab. Going up and down stairs? Nah, it ain't that bad. The size is more of a difficulty than the weight, for me.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Mar 1, 2018)

Spot on, Kalim. 

Love my 4x12 at bedroom volumes. Sounds amazing, honestly. I mean, yea it's more fun when it's cranked and I can feel it thump, but I don't really want to hear it blaring everytime I plug in either.


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 1, 2018)

Agree. 4x12s do sound awesome at bedroom volumes. I used to have a 4x12 in my small room, and it was just a BETTER sound than my 2x12 beaming on my ankles. But once you turn that amp up, the 4x12 will rattle your windows and those top speakers will take your head off.

I almost got evicted because of my JSX 400 watt 4x12 because you JUST WANT TO TURN IT UP! That kick, that air moving, amp in a room magic!


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## Triple7 (Mar 1, 2018)

I could never see playing my music live without a 4x12...or two. They deliver that thick punch that I love.


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## DarthV (Mar 1, 2018)

Overkill? Yeah, but if you aren't moving it or have no issues moving it, then why not?


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 3, 2018)

lewis said:


> Well yeah but whats the point? /\
> If you are hauling around a cab the same size as a 4x12, why would you then want it to sound like a 2x12?
> Haha
> Seems totally pointless to me but there you go.
> Like people who take 2 weeks worth of clothes in 4 suitcases just for a weekend get away.



It's not the same size. Almost. But those are 40 lbs lighter than a 4x12. Some people just want a 2x12 but with the added benefit of having the monitor effect of the slanted top speaker. And like line array PAs, vertical 2x12s seem not as beamy and spread the sound better in a room.


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## MatthewK (Mar 3, 2018)

I've had nice 412s, but I don't gig in a metal band or anything. I'm mostly running direct. I have a Mesa Mini Recto cab and I found that plenty enough for me playing with a drummer and definitely has a little thump to it.


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## goobaba (Mar 5, 2018)

KailM said:


> What I don't get is the people who say a 412 is "too loud" for home use.



I would have to disagree to some extant. In order to get the speaker moving and get the actual tone that is added from the speakers you definitely have to turn up to a certain volume. On a 1x12 that volume is still very loud, on a 4x12 that is too loud for bedroom use.


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## Double A (Mar 5, 2018)

I bought a g flex 2x12 6 or 7 years ago and never looked back. My thought process was... Fuck this cab sounds incredible. I am also sick of moving 4x12s, I own three, one an over sized mesa everyone seems to love. The shows we will be playing either we will be miced up or the place we are playing at would be small enough that the extra air would not be missed. And also what a lot of guitar players seem to overlook in favor of HUGE BLASTING NOISE SOUND is that listenable music is much more enjoyable than giant walls of sound that can sometimes turn to mush. We are not a quiet band and are plenty loud but sometimes musicians forget the whole less is more thing is mostly true.


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## KailM (Mar 5, 2018)

goobaba said:


> I would have to disagree to some extant. In order to get the speaker moving and get the actual tone that is added from the speakers you definitely have to turn up to a certain volume. On a 1x12 that volume is still very loud, on a 4x12 that is too loud for bedroom use.



While the tone is different at lower volumes, I don't find it at all "bad" or unacceptable. Listening right in front of the speakers, the tone isn't a whole lot different, in my experience. It could depend on the speakers, I suppose, and also whether or not you're boosting the amp.

Regarding my 6505, I play it through a 412 all the time at bedroom volumes. I can play it without waking my 3-year-old and still very much enjoy the tone. That said, good tone is only possible when boosting it and EQing it for that volume. Unboosted, it takes a lot more volume.


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## goobaba (Mar 5, 2018)

KailM said:


> While the tone is different at lower volumes, I don't find it at all "bad" or unacceptable.



I agree with you, it is not unacceptable or bad, but to get that 4x12 cab sound you do have to crank it a bit, and I think that is why people say they are too loud.


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## NateFalcon (Mar 5, 2018)

There’s been lots of times I’ve chosen to go with a 412 on each side of the stage instead of going through the PA...I prefer mic’ing a 412 as well...212’s are more focused sounding and can be perceived as louder due to the emphasized higher frequencies, but never quite cut it for me live, without mic’ing up, a 112 gets swallowed in a band setting and personally...you’ll never get the bass and air movement a 412 will...a Genz Benz g-flex 212 or DrZ “best” 212 cab have NICE low response though...Me, I’m a 412 guy- amps and equipment are heavy anyway so if you’re serious about gigging just buy a $500 van and stop tying to shove music equipment into the back of a sub-compact gas-sipper. Ever see a drummer with a small car?...it’s funny. I built two of my own oversized 412 cabs that I’ll never part with. If a 212 fits your life better, or think that’s all you need...cool, you can always upgrade later. Don’t be afraid to take the “monster truck” to get a ice cream cone lol, overkill is subjective


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## McKay (Mar 8, 2018)

Fuck no. For this reason:



> As long as there are clubs that won't invest in a DEECENT pa, there will always be 4x12 cabs. Back when I was in a band, both myself & the other guitarist had the notion that we could run a Pod XTL into the soundboard for live stuff so we wouldn't have to lug cabs on stage (locally anyway) but no such luck. They pretty much only used the pa for vocals and drums.



+ You're relying on the sound guy having the faintest idea what they're doing. Most of the time they don't. There's a lot of posts here that sound like they're coming from people who don't play live all that much. Not all PAs are equal, running guitar through a PA is something I avoid if I can help it, it just adds more ways for the sound to be fucked with. An angled 2x12 is an improvement over a regular one, I've played with SO MANY bands who get their tones ready with a straight 2x12 or 4x12 while they're listening stood up, so you end up listening to this really piercing trebly sound out front. Horrible.

Lugging around a 4x12 is a piece of cake if you're touring in a van. Half the time you won't even be using it (if you don't want to) because there'll be house cabs or other bands to share with, and if you're touring with other bands you generally gear pool so lugging it out of the van and into the venue is a shared task. Not that taking gear in and out of vans is that bad. There are people in their 40s who mine coal or move furniture or boxes 12 hours a day for a living, moving a 4x12 is not that bad unless your back is fucked or something.


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## budda (Mar 8, 2018)

I understand the 412 being physically too big for some people's homes, however 1) a 212 is not much smaller and b) who cares about the weight of a 412 in your basement if you don't gig . Hell get a bunch of cabs and 212 combos - you only have to lift them down there. I just don't understand the complains about weight in the situation where the cab isn't getting moved.


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## cwhitey2 (Mar 8, 2018)

I have used pretty every size cab at some point in my musical career and the only use anymore/still own is a Basson 412.

412's just sound huge. I used to gig with a 212 but I used to get lost in the mix since the other 2 guitarist were using 412s.


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## buriedoutback (Mar 8, 2018)

in my limited experiences:
I used to use a 4x12 - heavy, sounded amazing, all other bands used 4x12s. Sometimes I'd borrow another 4x12 and stack them --- BONER TONE!
I then decided to try going direct - sound guys were confused, monitors sucked, all other bands used 4x12s.
I then bought a 2x12 - super portable, couldn't compete with other guitar players 4x12, all other bands used 4x12s.
I then re-bought a 4x12 - heavy, sounds amazing, all other bands use 4x12s.
Happy again!


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 8, 2018)

budda said:


> I understand the 412 being physically too big for some people's homes, however 1) a 212 is not much smaller and b) who cares about the weight of a 412 in your basement if you don't gig . Hell get a bunch of cabs and 212 combos - you only have to lift them down there. I just don't understand the complains about weight in the situation where the cab isn't getting moved.



You must not be married with kids.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Mar 8, 2018)

budda said:


> I understand the 412 being physically too big for some people's homes, however 1) a 212 is not much smaller and b) who cares about the weight of a 412 in your basement if you don't gig . Hell get a bunch of cabs and 212 combos - you only have to lift them down there. I just don't understand the complains about weight in the situation where the cab isn't getting moved.



The footprint of the same brand of 2x12 is usually identical to the same brand of 4x12... so unless you need to fit it under a table or shelf... go big. Get the 4x12.


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## budda (Mar 8, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You must not be married with kids.



Just married with a dog.

My band practices in a different city, all the stuff that takes up room costs me hundreds a month to have there instead


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## thebrokeguitarist (Mar 8, 2018)

McKay said:


> Fuck no. For this reason:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a 1x12 I keep at home for monitoring but record direct out of my 6505MH for idea sharing with the band. At practice I rent a 4x12 from the rehearsal space but still plug into the PA for my main source of volume.

Live I always go direct and know how to communicate what I need to the sound guy (girl occasionally). If there's backline or a band's 4x12 I can borrow I'll plug into the cab just for stage volume. Maybe I'm just lucky to live in a city where most venues have a halfway competent soundguy, even dive bars. I've never had a bad experience with this set up and according to the audience the mix is usually pretty clear. It helps that I used to do FOH when I was a teen so I can speak the lingo and I know how to butter them up. I highly prefer this to lugging around a 4x12 and 120W head like I did in high school. And I played varsity football then so I was definitely more capable of lugging that gear around than I would be now.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 8, 2018)

budda said:


> I understand the 412 being physically too big for some people's homes, however 1) a 212 is not much smaller and b) who cares about the weight of a 412 in your basement if you don't gig . Hell get a bunch of cabs and 212 combos - you only have to lift them down there. I just don't understand the complains about weight in the situation where the cab isn't getting moved.


"1)... and b)..."


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## budda (Mar 8, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> "1)... and b)..."



Studio life, man. Up is down


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## Aso (Mar 8, 2018)

budda said:


> I understand the 412 being physically too big for some people's homes, however 1) a 212 is not much smaller and b) who cares about the weight of a 412 in your basement if you don't gig . Hell get a bunch of cabs and 212 combos - you only have to lift them down there. I just don't understand the complains about weight in the situation where the cab isn't getting moved.



This so sounds like me and my basement. I would think of getting rid of the Soldano 4x12s but since people don't want to pay anything for a 4x12 and I have the room they can just hang out. I mainly play through my Omega 1x12 so maybe none of the gear is needed.


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 8, 2018)

wow. those soldano cabs have the stock legend v12s? (and i guess that vader too.)


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## Aso (Mar 8, 2018)

MASS DEFECT said:


> wow. those soldano cabs have the stock legend v12s? (and i guess that vader too.)


The Soldanos have the stock Eminence V12 speakers . The Vader was part of the run he did several years ago so I got it unloaded since there was no way to get the Vader voiced Eminence speakers. The Vader has a Texas Heat and something else (I forgot what I put in there) The 2x12 Omega has BlkTri Ghosts and the Omega 4x12 has Eminence CV75s and V12 pairs


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## jsmalleus (Mar 8, 2018)

I think the conditions out there nowadays just have people placing less emphasis on monster rigs. As with anything rig related though, it's different strokes for different folks in terms of what works best. If you love having your 4x12 thumping at shows and it makes sense to take it, hell yeah, crank it. For me, my 2x12 is vert, slanted, ported, and slays @ every venue I've used it at thus far. A 4x12 would too, but for what we play, the degree to which it actually does it better is nominal. If it's a huge or outdoor venue I'm sure there's a point where the gap would widen, but even then, if we're miced up and the sound guy doesn't suck, it seems unnecessary.

The days of excess for its own sake have been on their way out the door ever since the $ to perpetuate it dried up. Sure, image is still important in music, and it's fun feeling like a rockstar with as many speakers as possible behind ya, but the reality is that fake wall of cabs with two in the bunch actually loaded with speakers. Plus those guys already did the more is more and wall of cabs thing, and it was theirs much more than it will ever be anyone's today.

In our particular case, we're nobodies from nowhere and would have to take another car, forgo a light fixture/merch bin or cooler in the back if we went 4x12s rather than 2x12s. Image and space considerations aside, in terms of sound, any difference between the 2x12 and my 4x12s (that isn't due to the speaker/amp combo) for me is not worth opting for the latter, and that's coming from a dude who takes a 100lbs rack rig up two flights of stairs to my room after each show, and then back down & out for the next show because tonez haha. We're getting the band van & trailer on the road this spring and I'll still be taking the 2x12, because it works so well for us that I feel like taking 4x12s instead would only be a waste of gas $ and space that would both be better spent on more cds to hand out, shirts, or any number of things. The $ isn't in music like it used to be, so 4x12's are disappearing as more and more bands take a leaner approach.

Unless you're a touring band playing large/outdoor venues or you don't care about adjusting levels for a proper live mix (I'm looking at you band who cranks guitars so loud that unmiced drum kit is completely inaudible for your whole set), I just don't think you'd really be sacrificing much using a 2x12. If you wanna push as much air as possible and feel like a badass, get it done son \m/, but if you're at the typical sized venue running the standard mono amp -> cab setup and assume when I roll out the 2x12 for our set or you use it in gear share that it isn't gonna cut it, then I'm gonna assume you: a) haven't played the right 2x12, b) haven't devoted adequate attention to working on live levels and mixing with your band, or c) treat sound guys like the boogeyman. And then I'm going to smile at the look on your face when you hear it. I mean it's metal, so naturally we like it bigger, louder, and heavier, but 90% of the time b and c are the real difference between people inquiring about your band & rig *after* your set because it sounded good (rather than just loud), or people inquiring with the merch area about who has earplugs for sale or going out for a smoke *during* your set because you've got settings dimed, blasting through as many speakers as possible, and think that makes it kick ass by default.

tldr:
Will 4x12's ever go out of style? Nope.
Are more musicians trading in the 'moar is better' rigs in favor of practicality and portability? Yep.


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## Frostbite (Mar 8, 2018)

Nah not even a little. When I go to local shows in the MA area every band has a 4x12 without fail. For a lot of kids it's the dream to have a half stack


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## budda (Mar 8, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> I have used pretty every size cab at some point in my musical career and the only use anymore/still own is a Basson 412.
> 
> 412's just sound huge. I used to gig with a 212 but I used to get lost in the mix since the other 2 guitarist were using 412s.



Are you sure you didnt get lost in the mix because there were two other guitars, bass and cymbals though?


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## cwhitey2 (Mar 8, 2018)

budda said:


> Are you sure you didnt get lost in the mix because there were two other guitars, bass and cymbals though?


That's most likely true as im conservative work my volume.


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## noob_pwn (Mar 9, 2018)

I much prefer the resonance of a 412. Can't see it being "dead" at all.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 9, 2018)

Aso said:


> This so sounds like me and my basement. I would think of getting rid of the Soldano 4x12s but since people don't want to pay anything for a 4x12 and I have the room they can just hang out. I mainly play through my Omega 1x12 so maybe none of the gear is needed.


Excellent gear. You need an SLO for sure though.



Aso said:


> The Vader has a Texas Heat and something else (I forgot what I put in there)


Texas Heat and Swamp Thangs? That's a common combo.


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## NateFalcon (Mar 9, 2018)

lifting 412’s keeps you from having ‘Marty Friedman biceps’...seriously, some guys it couldn’t hurt to pump those little arms once in a while. It’s also good for your back...it’s like dead-lifting, but cooler


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 9, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> lifting 412’s keeps you from having ‘Marty Friedman biceps’...seriously, some guys it couldn’t hurt to pump those little arms once in a while. It’s also good for your back...it’s like dead-lifting, but cooler


It might not be good for your back, especially if you're stupid and don't know how to lift heavy shit off the ground.


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## TheFireSky5150 (Mar 9, 2018)

Im super excited, my 2x12 Orange Jim Root comes 2maro and I think that Ill be totally content with it. I've had a Mesa recta12, and while that thing was sweet, ive downsized to a 5153 and this orange 2x12. I feel like my rig has been totally compacted and condensed into this smaller abundance of power and tone, and I coukdnt be happier. A 50watt head and a 2x12 will play any gig from my bedroom to the palladium.


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## lurè (Mar 9, 2018)

the love for my custom oversize 412 (no wheels) is as big as my lumbar hernia.


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## NateFalcon (Mar 9, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> It might not be good for your back, especially if you're stupid and don't know how to lift heavy shit off the ground.


Super true, I was being a smartass


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## Meeotch (Mar 10, 2018)

Here's an interesting compromise:

http://www.dvmark.it/product-detail/dv-neoclassic-412/

DV Mark Neoclassic 412. 49lbs.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 10, 2018)

Meeotch said:


> Here's an interesting compromise:
> 
> http://www.dvmark.it/product-detail/dv-neoclassic-412/
> 
> DV Mark Neoclassic 412. 49lbs.



I'd be interested to hear what that sounds like.

No mention of cabinet construction. I know you can shave a few pounds off using neodymium, but not that much on its own, at least compared to most speakers. 

Not that light cabs sound bad.


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## Petar Bogdanov (Mar 10, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd be interested to hear what that sounds like.
> 
> No mention of cabinet construction. I know you can shave a few pounds off using neodymium, but not that much on its own, at least compared to most speakers.
> 
> Not that light cabs sound bad.



If you use aluminium for the speaker basket, you can save some more. Make the cab shallower, save some more. It all adds up in the end.

Look at this picture:






From the surface finish you can tell the basket is cast, as opposed to stamped. I bet that helps too.


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## budda (Mar 10, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd be interested to hear what that sounds like.
> 
> No mention of cabinet construction. I know you can shave a few pounds off using neodymium, but not that much on its own, at least compared to most speakers.
> 
> Not that light cabs sound bad.



I can tell you that a Neo 810 shaves 20 or so pounds off the overall weight without losing any tone. Man I miss our old 810


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## Krucifixtion (Mar 10, 2018)

For a band that plays small local shows with crappy PA systems the 4x12 is far from dead or even for band rehearsal it still helps. However, in a venue with a good PA yeah in theory all you need is a 2x12. Last time I saw Carcass all they had on stage were some EVH 5153 50 watt heads and 2x12 cabs and the mix was great. If you have good monitoring you don't need too much stage volume.


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## Soya (Mar 10, 2018)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> If you use aluminium for the speaker basket, you can save some more. Make the cab shallower, save some more. It all adds up in the end.
> 
> Look at this picture:
> 
> ...



Sorry no, that basket is 100% stamped steel. Look at the mounting tab for the voice coil leads and the mounting holes around the perimeter. Just a fancy finish.


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## TheFireSky5150 (Mar 11, 2018)

Krucifixtion said:


> For a band that plays small local shows with crappy PA systems the 4x12 is far from dead or even for band rehearsal it still helps. However, in a venue with a good PA yeah in theory all you need is a 2x12. Last time I saw Carcass all they had on stage were some EVH 5153 50 watt heads and 2x12 cabs and the mix was great. If you have good monitoring you don't need too much stage volume.


But what can a 4x12 do at practice or a small local show that a 2x12 cant? I believe that you dont need a 4x12 to cut through a floor show or practice. I had a oversized mesa 4x12. I now have a 2x12 Orange and honestly, i wouldnt look back. For the price, the tone, and the physical labor of it all, I'd stick to 2x12. If you want a 100 watt head you can still have it. If you want to be the loudest person in the band without clipping, you still can. I think 4x12 is overcompensation for those with a hefty wallet and a point to prove (not to be mean, i just remember being that kid who wanted to show up balls to the wall)


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## Deadpool_25 (Mar 11, 2018)

Interesting thread. I haven’t had a 4x12 in a long time but recently got another off of CL. This one is a Mesa standard slant cab. I’ve had it for a few days but have been busy and the only time I used it I was running the 5150 into one half and the Invective into the other side and kinda a/b-ing them. I think tomorrow I’m gonna have to a/b them using my custom 2x12 and the 4x12. Should be fun.


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## bracky (Mar 11, 2018)

I love 4x12 cabinets because of their full sound. They soak up 4 times the wattage above a 1x12 so they sound so much less harsh while still moving a huge amount of air.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 11, 2018)

This is the best way to do 412


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## KailM (Mar 11, 2018)

TheFireSky5150 said:


> But what can a 4x12 do at practice or a small local show that a 2x12 cant? I believe that you dont need a 4x12 to cut through a floor show or practice. I had a oversized mesa 4x12. I now have a 2x12 Orange and honestly, i wouldnt look back. For the price, the tone, and the physical labor of it all, I'd stick to 2x12. If you want a 100 watt head you can still have it. If you want to be the loudest person in the band without clipping, you still can. I think 4x12 is overcompensation for those with a hefty wallet and a point to prove (not to be mean, i just remember being that kid who wanted to show up balls to the wall)



Nowadays, it seems that 412s are cheaper than 212s, or at least in the same ballpark. I'd honestly like to try an oversized 212, but I haven't seen one for less than $450. I bought my Crate 412 which is nearly identical to a Marshall 1960a (all 3/4" plywood except for the back) for $50. I sold the low end Celestions out of it for $100 and installed some Eminence Swamps and Governors. So for about $300 all told, I've got a cab that will bring the house down.

People are also quick to point out that a cranked 412 is "too much" for most situations. But again I'll ask the question -- why are people afraid to adjust their volume? Is there some mandate that says if you're running a half stack you must run your volume dimed? If anything, you should have an easier time dialing in the volume of a 412 to the mix since it has better sound dispersion. Again, I really enjoy and prefer the sound of my 412 at low, home use volumes. With my 112, I've gotta tilt it back or set it on top of something to hear it properly.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2018)

I dont understand OS212's because they are so close in size to a 412 you might as well just get the 412.


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## TheFireSky5150 (Mar 11, 2018)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Interesting thread. I haven’t had a 4x12 in a long time but recently got another off of CL. This one is a Mesa standard slant cab. I’ve had it for a few days but have been busy and the only time I used it I was running the 5150 into one half and the Invective into the other side and kinda a/b-ing them. I think tomorrow I’m gonna have to a/b them using my custom 2x12 and the 4x12. Should be fun.


I can't bring myself to purchase the Invective. Too much money for a 6505+ with "Djent" written on it.


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## bhakan (Mar 11, 2018)

budda said:


> I dont understand OS212's because they are so close in size to a 412 you might as well just get the 412.


I use an oversized 2x12. It's not that much smaller than a 4x12 but I can fit my full rig in my car's trunk, which would not be the case if I had a 4x12. Also, I like being able to put it vertical for heavier bands with half stacks or horizontal for softer bands with combo amps. It allows me to either keep up with a 4x12 or not blow out a 1x12.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 11, 2018)

budda said:


> I dont understand OS212's because they are so close in size to a 412 you might as well just get the 412.



Cab size plays a large part in how it sounds.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2018)

bhakan said:


> I use an oversized 2x12. It's not that much smaller than a 4x12 but I can fit my full rig in my car's trunk, which would not be the case if I had a 4x12. Also, I like being able to put it vertical for heavier bands with half stacks or horizontal for softer bands with combo amps. It allows me to either keep up with a 4x12 or not blow out a 1x12.



I take it you've tried to fit a 412 in your trunk? I can put a 412 marshall cab in a Toyota Yaris so it surprises me to hear about most other cars not fitting a 412. Horizontal/vertical probably impacts your ability to hear it more than whether or not it's actually louder than the other amp. To that end I'd say a regular 212 on an amp stand would probably be the sweet spot for either scenario.


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## bhakan (Mar 11, 2018)

budda said:


> I take it you've tried to fit a 412 in your trunk? I can put a 412 marshall cab in a Toyota Yaris so it surprises me to hear about most other cars not fitting a 412. Horizontal/vertical probably impacts your ability to hear it more than whether or not it's actually louder than the other amp. To that end I'd say a regular 212 on an amp stand would probably be the sweet spot for either scenario.


I could fit a 4x12 in my trunk, but as it is I can _just_ fit the 2x12, head, pedalboard and guitar in my trunk which leaves room for another bandmate and his gear in the rest of the car. 

Vertical vs. horizontal is totally about perceived volume rather than actual volume, but when I'm on the floor with the crowd I feel like that height makes a difference. Amp stands would be a good move but I feel like the vertical cab gets the job done for me and takes up a little less space when I'm in a tighter space.


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