# ESP 2023



## possumkiller (Nov 3, 2022)

It's getting close to that time of year again. What's the scuttlebutt on new Esps at namm?


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## Mboogie7 (Nov 3, 2022)

Shit man, I’m hoping to see 22’s come available soon lol. I’ve been eyeing their TE 201 and H3 lefties


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## JD27 (Nov 3, 2022)

More exciting models, finishes, and options not available until 2024.


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## possumkiller (Nov 3, 2022)

I'm pretty sure we will see walls full of gaudy ass exhibition series pieces. Maybe if those builders have so much free time they could help out with the standard line guitars...


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## marke (Nov 3, 2022)

Hoping they replace E-II logos with ESP logos. The logo is not a big deal for me, but the Standard ESP price bubble needs to go.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 3, 2022)

marke said:


> Hoping they replace E-II logos with ESP logos. The logo is not a big deal for me, but the Standard ESP price bubble needs to go.


yeah 3k USD for an EII hurts, especially when earlier this year I could get a USA for basically that price..


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## jwade (Nov 3, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> It's getting close to that time of year again. What's the scuttlebutt on new Esps at namm?


 
Pretty sure the NAMM scheduling changed things up, I think it's in late April now.


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## /wrists (Nov 3, 2022)

Time flew by. sheesh


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## Bloody_Inferno (Nov 4, 2022)

Wake me up when these sig customs become production models.


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## Church2224 (Nov 4, 2022)

Hopefully no new MIJ E IIs until they catch up one production. Also I hope they don't chance the line up until I get all the ones I want lol


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## mlp187 (Nov 4, 2022)

I’m still looking forward to new ESPs, but in all sincerity, I don’t see the value in them anymore. 

The LTD line is a different story for me (for now). I’m still hyped for that H3 baritone from 2022, even though I’m only playing 8s and 6s anymore. 

So I am excited for 2022 LTDs to come in 2023! If the supply chain catches up with manufacturing, I may be excited for 2023 models too!


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## jco5055 (Nov 4, 2022)

naturally, some 7s in the Original line


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## /wrists (Nov 4, 2022)

if anyone's seen inflation lately in music world it's the esp EII's going from $2k, to $3.2


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## Shawn (Nov 4, 2022)

Looking forward to seeing new E-IIs....


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## Mboogie7 (Nov 4, 2022)

/wrists said:


> if anyone's seen inflation lately in music world it's the esp EII's going from $2k, to $3.2



Lol fuck that.


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## /wrists (Nov 4, 2022)

Shawn said:


> Looking forward to seeing new E-IIs....


Looking forward to the price hike too.


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## Andromalia (Nov 4, 2022)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Wake me up when these sig customs become production models.


BEEEP ! Wrong headstock !

More seriously, I enjoy watching them, but don't really plan on getting anythign at this point. Have 3 ESPs, one of them an Original, it's going to suffice. On the bright side, I bought a car with the money.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Nov 4, 2022)

/wrists said:


> if anyone's seen inflation lately in music world it's the esp EII's going from $2k, to $3.2





/wrists said:


> Looking forward to the price hike too.


r u gonna make me link the car thread


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## Kaura (Nov 4, 2022)

ESP


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## sakeido (Nov 4, 2022)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Wake me up when these sig customs become production models.


yo what the fuck, a 27 fret, partially scalloped 7 string WITH A FIXED BRIDGE 

who is that beautiful man and what is that sig


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 4, 2022)

I'd be shocked if we get a big 2023 rollout this year. I'm almost positive the majority of the 2022 guitars still haven't hit the shelves yet, so if they do anything for next year, it'll be a really small release.


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## possumkiller (Nov 4, 2022)

ESP is getting expensive af too. They used to be the cheaper alternative to Gibson, Fender, or Jackson. Now, not really. They make USA Fender and Gibson models that are cheaper than some LTD models.


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## gunch (Nov 4, 2022)

A TE that has normal tele pickups but still has the forearm contour and neck/radius dimensions


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## /wrists (Nov 4, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> ESP is getting expensive af too. They used to be the cheaper alternative to Gibson, Fender, or Jackson. Now, not really. They make USA Fender and Gibson models that are cheaper than some LTD models.


True they have established their space.


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## Sleazy_D (Nov 4, 2022)

I ordered a 2022 guitar on NYE 2021. Still waiting for it ten months and a little change later


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## /wrists (Nov 4, 2022)

Sleazy_D said:


> I ordered a 2022 guitar on NYE 2021. Still waiting for it ten months and a little change later


From ESP? Custom or...?


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## cardinal (Nov 4, 2022)

I think ESP Original Series orders are like 18 months out for just production guitars. I assume E-II stuff is similarly backed up.


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## narad (Nov 4, 2022)

Spent my morning trying to hunt down a certain photo that must be from a 87-90 Catalog, but can't find it. But in the process looked at a lot of old catalogs vs. now. Man, just throw out 95% of the current stuff and go back to the late 80s offerings...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 4, 2022)

narad said:


> Spent my morning trying to hunt down a certain photo that must be from a 87-90 Catalog, but can't find it. But in the process looked at a lot of old catalogs vs. now. Man, just throw out 95% of the current stuff and go back to the late 80s offerings...


I can't disagree with this. The '87 series is still missing some key offerings.


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## narad (Nov 4, 2022)




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## narad (Nov 4, 2022)

Very questionable though...


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 4, 2022)

narad said:


>



I'm all for goofy shit, but there's maybe three guitars I'd want there.


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## narad (Nov 4, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm all for goofy shit, but there's maybe three guitars I'd want there.


Entire bottom row looks good to me!


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## soul_lip_mike (Nov 4, 2022)

I’m planning on making that Javier LTD strat my first 8 string. They need to release it already.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 5, 2022)

narad said:


> Entire bottom row looks good to me!



Yeah, that's where my three are.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Nov 5, 2022)

Forget all that, if they would just mass produce Deep CAR Horizon I's for <5k I'd be a happy camper


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## narad (Nov 5, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> Forget all that, if they would just mass produce Deep CAR Horizon I's for <5k I'd be a happy camper



They currently do.


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## Necky379 (Nov 5, 2022)

Still waiting for a pink Stef sig


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Nov 5, 2022)

narad said:


> They currently do.


5k != <5k unfortunately


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## narad (Nov 5, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> 5k != <5k unfortunately



Just buy from Japan. If you want one shipped to your door for $4k + some random chance ~8% duty, let me know and I'll make it happen.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Nov 5, 2022)

narad said:


> Just buy from Japan. If you want one shipped to your door for $4k + some random chance ~8% duty, let me know and I'll make it happen.


I wish I had known this in August at the height of my HI gas, but now my 4k guitar budget is reserved for an Anderson custom that will be done in 4-6 weeks. At least my Guardian Angel does the HxS floyd shred thing well enough, though I doubt the GAS will die until I get a real HI. Maybe next year.


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## OmegaSlayer (Nov 5, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> ESP is getting expensive af too. They used to be the cheaper alternative to Gibson, Fender, or Jackson. Now, not really. They make USA Fender and Gibson models that are cheaper than some LTD models.


Ditto
That's exactly what I was thinking

A made in USA now costs less than some imports from Indonesia or Korea, and not taking into account the awesome quality of Fender made in Mexico


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## Bloody_Inferno (Nov 5, 2022)

sakeido said:


> who is that beautiful man and what is that sig








Ruiza | ESP GUITARS


トップアーティストに愛用されるエレクトリックギター＆ベースメーカーESP GUITARS JAPAN




espguitars.co.jp





He's from a J-Rock band called D. His new guitar looks like a continuation of his sig line.


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## AltecGreen (Nov 5, 2022)

narad said:


> Just buy from Japan. If you want one shipped to your door for $4k + some random chance ~8% duty, let me know and I'll make it happen.


You can probably get this for around $3500 shipped.









ESP／HOROZON-I／新品／¥440000／状態：S


赤系／BIG BOSS／金沢／送料無料でお届け致します。



www.digimart.net


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## Agalloch (Nov 5, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> Forget all that, if they would just mass produce Deep CAR Horizon I's for <5k I'd be a happy camper



The list price for a brand new ESP Horizon from Ikebe is around 400,000 yen which is under $3000. So, what I want to know is why the fuck do they cost *$5000 *new in the US? Totally insane.


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## /wrists (Nov 5, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> The list price for a brand new ESP Horizon from Ikebe is around 400,000 yen which is under $3000. So, what I want to know is why the fuck do they cost *$5000 *new in the US? Totally insane.


Btw...I think it's probably important to note the Yen is taking a fat shit right now. 

It used to be like that for caparison as well.


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## Shawn (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> Looking forward to the price hike too.




Luckily I got my EII Mii NT7 from Nick @ Axe Palace for an amazing deal.


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## Agalloch (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> Btw...I think it's probably important to note the Yen is taking a fat shit right now.
> 
> It used to be like that for caparison as well.



That's totally true, but--and this is probably because I don't understand economics--that still doesn't explain why ESP is selling their Original guitars for so much more in USD. I mean, $5000 is equivalent to over 730,000 Yen. But Japanese dealers are selling that same guitar at 400,000ish Yen domestically. So...what's the deal?

It's like ESP is pretending the global market doesn't exist. I can import an ESP Original for _cheaper_ than I can buy some of the E-II models in the states. Someone explain this to me, please.


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## /wrists (Nov 5, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> That's totally true, but--and this is probably because I don't understand economics--that still doesn't explain why ESP is selling their Original guitars for so much more in USD. I mean, $5000 is equivalent to over 730,000 Yen. But Japanese dealers are selling that same guitar at 400,000ish Yen domestically. So...what's the deal?
> 
> It's like ESP is pretending the global market doesn't exist. I can import an ESP Original for _cheaper_ than I can buy some of the E-II models in the states. Someone explain this to me, please.


Caparison did this thing where they stopped allowing Japanese distributors to sell directly to US citizens so their US retailer could sell more Caps...

It's also like this for even video games. They sell for more simply because our economy is stronger and have people who CAN and WILL pay more.

For example, if you have a Steam account, you can change regions to buy games for less. Like if you buy a game in Malaysia it'll be a good $20-40 less. And then convert your region back.

And then Steam will ban you to really make you feel valued as a customer instead of setting up mechanisms to prevent that kind of "abuse" if you want to call it that.

You can go to fromjapan right now and buy a caparison for $2200 and mark it as a gift and pay no taxes and just $200 shipping from MUSICKEYLAND or buy from caparison's retailer here for $3200.

Yeah.

I bought an Edwards brand new for $800 recently (gotoh hardware, ebony fretboard, neckthru construction, all the premium jazz) where a similar LTD would be $1200 and made in Korea or Indonesia.


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## Agalloch (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> Caparison did this thing where they stopped allowing Japanese distributors to sell directly to US citizens so their US retailer could sell more Caps...
> 
> It's also like this for even video games. They sell for more simply because our economy is stronger and have people who CAN and WILL pay more.
> 
> ...



Those are all very good points. (And I'm definitely thinking of importing a Caparison...)

I think ESP is in a pretty weird place with their pricing right now--at least in the States. After all the price hikes, ESP USA prices are close (or even more) than ESP Originals. But ESP USA used to be a midpoint between E-II and the Original/Custom line. And there are LTDs that cost _more_ than E-IIs. (though, to be fair, this is comparing the really intense LTDs like the Javier one to the more standard E-IIs).

It's just strange. They have so many lines and it doesn't feel like there's as clear a delineation between them as some other brands.


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## /wrists (Nov 5, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> Those are all very good points. (And I'm definitely thinking of importing a Caparison...)
> 
> I think ESP is in a pretty weird place with their pricing right now--at least in the States. After all the price hikes, ESP USA prices are close (or even more) than ESP Originals. But ESP USA used to be a midpoint between E-II and the Original/Custom line. And there are LTDs that cost _more_ than E-IIs. (though, to be fair, this is comparing the really intense LTDs like the Javier one to the more standard E-IIs).
> 
> It's just strange. They have so many lines and it doesn't feel like there's as clear a delineation between them as some other brands.


Fortunately, I almost never buy these things new. I would only buy a Caparison new because I've never seen the caparison I wanted used at a reasonable price. Ie, it's all like $2800... 

I can negotiate to $2900 for Caparison here.


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## Sleazy_D (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> From ESP? Custom or...?


Not even. An LTD I’m waiting for


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## /wrists (Nov 5, 2022)

Sleazy_D said:


> Not even. An LTD I’m waiting for


wtf lol


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## Sleazy_D (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> wtf lol


I ordered two guitars that night. Finally I am getting one of them on Monday, 10 mths and a week.


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## Mprinsje (Nov 5, 2022)

narad said:


>


That red Tele with banana headstock is a custom for Scott Ian I believe and I have loved that from the moment I first saw it in an anthrax live video from the 80's.

Also God Daaaaamn those old pointy headstocks look so fucking good it pains me I haven't got a guitar with one.


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## soul_lip_mike (Nov 5, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> Forget all that, if they would just mass produce Deep CAR Horizon I's for <5k I'd be a happy camper


What is a deep car horizon?


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## soul_lip_mike (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> Caparison did this thing where they stopped allowing Japanese distributors to sell directly to US citizens so their US retailer could sell more Caps...
> 
> It's also like this for even video games. They sell for more simply because our economy is stronger and have people who CAN and WILL pay more.
> 
> ...


That's weird because Caparison sells direct from their factory on reverb to USA customers. That is how I got my CZQ - they have a reverb store and I made an offer and they accepted it. Shipped direct to me from Caparison in Japan.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 5, 2022)

/wrists said:


> wtf lol


We tried to warn y'all earlier in the 2022 thread.  ESP/LTD had the flashiest 2022 out of the other brands, but they were gonna have to fight the supply constraints and shipping delays. There's a reason almost every brand except LTD didn't have much to show.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Nov 5, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> What is a deep car horizon?



Deep Candy Apple Red


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## Wiltonauer (Nov 5, 2022)

Shawn said:


> Looking forward to seeing new E-IIs....


I wouldn’t mind seeing the one I ordered a year ago….


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## narad (Nov 5, 2022)

AltecGreen said:


> You can probably get this for around $3500 shipped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly. If it involves me shipping it out, then it costs more, but still with tons of margin vs. the US prices.

The yen drop is part of it, but I have just been shocked watching the US prices on some things climb -- ESP, J-customs, Sugi. Who's to blame? Seems like it has to be the dealers or the parent company setting region prices. It's definitely not related to cost. But you know how it is -- if there's a currency flux that would make things cheaper, it's never reflected in price. If a currency flux makes things more expensive, it's reflected in price and never set back 

I remember when Gustavsson guitars from Sweden were on the rise, and the SEK had a big surge at the time, that pushed the price of the guitars from $4k->$7k (and demand -> $9k). A couple years later, the SEK declined.. but US dealers kept pushing those guitars at 10k, 11k, 12k...


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## Shawn (Nov 5, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> Deep Candy Apple Red


Sexy.


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## AMOS (Nov 5, 2022)

I'd like to see an LTD line of all the George Lynch signatures. As far as I know there is only the Tiger


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## narad (Nov 5, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I'd like to see an LTD line of all the George Lynch signatures. As far as I know there is only the Tiger



They've done an LTD Kami-1 before, not sure it's in the current catalog.


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## Vyn (Nov 5, 2022)

7 String Arrow. Don't care if they just bring back the standard black E-II one from 2016 or if they do a Black Metal series LTD one. Sick of paying ridiculous used prices because there isn't currently one in production.


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## Sleazy_D (Nov 6, 2022)

Vyn said:


> 7 String Arrow. Don't care if they just bring back the standard black E-II one from 2016 or if they do a Black Metal series LTD one. Sick of paying ridiculous used prices because there isn't currently one in production.


I co sign your sentiments


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## soul_lip_mike (Nov 6, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I'd like to see an LTD line of all the George Lynch signatures. As far as I know there is only the Tiger


The green kamikaze with maple neck has an ltd version.


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## Millul (Nov 7, 2022)

narad said:


> Exactly. If it involves me shipping it out, then it costs more, but still with tons of margin vs. the US prices.
> 
> The yen drop is part of it, but I have just been shocked watching the US prices on some things climb -- ESP, J-customs, Sugi. Who's to blame? Seems like it has to be the dealers or the parent company setting region prices. It's definitely not related to cost. But you know how it is -- if there's a currency flux that would make things cheaper, it's never reflected in price. If a currency flux makes things more expensive, it's reflected in price and never set back
> 
> I remember when Gustavsson guitars from Sweden were on the rise, and the SEK had a big surge at the time, that pushed the price of the guitars from $4k->$7k (and demand -> $9k). A couple years later, the SEK declined.. but US dealers kept pushing those guitars at 10k, 11k, 12k...



The TGP vibes are STRONG here...I remember those days.


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## narad (Nov 7, 2022)

Millul said:


> The TGP vibes are STRONG here...I remember those days.


Yea, I bought into that hook, line, and sinker. Good guitars but I was throwing around money way above my paygrade (like literally 70% my annual takehome - rent) just because I wanted to nail Led Zeppelin tone and I was getting all of my advice from a place where everyone unanimously agreed that gibson historics were overpriced shit. A couple years later I had a mini existential crisis when one of the forum experts posted a video of himself playing.


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## Millul (Nov 7, 2022)

narad said:


> Yea, I bought into that hook, line, and sinker. Good guitars but I was throwing around money way above my paygrade (like literally 70% my annual takehome - rent) just because I wanted to nail Led Zeppelin tone and I was getting all of my advice from a place where everyone unanimously agreed that gibson historics were overpriced shit. A couple years later I had a mini existential crisis when one of the forum experts posted a video of himself playing.



Yeah place is crazy...but at a certain point I discovered its metal brethren, and...I've been here ever since  
Now, just imagine if D'Pergos would've been priced in Kronene as well back then, place would've gone BONKERS


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## Crash Dandicoot (Nov 7, 2022)

I'd like to see the concord headstock return, as well as fair game on custom orders for the reverse banana.

Meanwhile, in reality... I'll keep asking for them to bring it back until they do:


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## sell2792 (Nov 8, 2022)

As long as they offer more cockstocks and banana/hockey stick headstocks, I’m on board.


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## RevDrucifer (Nov 8, 2022)

Wake me up when they put this out-


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## Mboogie7 (Nov 8, 2022)

Crash Dandicoot said:


> I'd like to see the concord headstock return, as well as fair game on custom orders for the reverse banana.
> 
> Meanwhile, in reality... I'll keep asking for them to bring it back until they do:
> 
> View attachment 116750



Preach the good message! Cock stocks>>>


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## zw470 (Nov 9, 2022)

Sleazy_D said:


> Not even. An LTD I’m waiting for



Probably in the same shipping container as my Snakebyte


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## Apex1rg7x (Nov 9, 2022)

My last CS order took roughly 16 months when I was quoted 8-10. Unfortunately it's the way it is now days. I've seen 2-3 years quoted for new USA orders. I don't see them putting out anything new when the 2022 stuff hasn't really shipped yet.


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## Vegetta (Nov 9, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> ESP is getting expensive af too. They used to be the cheaper alternative to Gibson, Fender, or Jackson. Now, not really. They make USA Fender and Gibson models that are cheaper than some LTD models.


I miss the old days when you could get 400 series strats for under $300.


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## possumkiller (Nov 9, 2022)

Vegetta said:


> I miss the old days when you could get 400 series strats for under $300.


Or an old MII deluxe for 500


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## MFB (Nov 9, 2022)

Vegetta said:


> I miss the old days when you could get 400 series strats for under $300.



I'm looking at picking up one of the 400 series Baritones, and one model goes for around $600 and the other is $850, not even a 1000 series!


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## BusinessMan (Nov 9, 2022)

I know my boi Nikolas and Richard from orbit culture recently got endorsed by esp. All I'm hoping for is an ltd sig and I'd probably buy it


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## possumkiller (Nov 10, 2022)

MFB said:


> I'm looking at picking up one of the 400 series Baritones, and one model goes for around $600 and the other is $850, not even a 1000 series!


Dude is talking about the Esp 400 series not the LTDs.








Kirk Hammett's "One" ESP 400 Series S-Type is on the Auction Block


Bidding for the guitar – which was used in the song's MTV-favored music video – currently sits at $26,000.




www.guitarplayer.com


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## Sleazy_D (Nov 10, 2022)

zw470 said:


> Probably in the same shipping container as my Snakebyte


Well if it is, then the wait just got longer because now Im being told spring 2023. I might cancel the order that I made on New Year’s Eve 2021. Ridiculous.


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## possumkiller (Nov 10, 2022)

Sleazy_D said:


> Well if it is, then the wait just got longer because now Im being told spring 2023. I might cancel the order that I made on New Year’s Eve 2021. Ridiculous.


Come on guys, at least you haven't been waiting since 2016 for a daemoness.


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## snhowie827 (Nov 29, 2022)

Odd they haven't sent any sneak preview emails for the new line up. This time last year they had already teased two new models. I wonder if supply shortages for the 2022 guitars might be impacting 2023 plans.


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## cardinal (Nov 29, 2022)

Seems like it'd be hard for dealers to place new orders for more stuff when they seem to still be waiting on last year's orders.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 29, 2022)

Yeah, ESP really dug themselves a hole. They were like a year behind on E-II stuff _before_ the pandemic. If they were a small builder they would have been done long ago.


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## possumkiller (Nov 29, 2022)

Rest assured there will be walls full of gaudy ass over the top extravagant exhibition guitars that nobody asked for...


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## zw470 (Nov 29, 2022)

Have any of the 2022 guitars even made it to stores besides some camo Snakebytes?


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## tian (Nov 29, 2022)

zw470 said:


> Have any of the 2022 guitars even made it to stores besides some camo Snakebytes?


This is the 2022 ESP page and this is Sweetwater's ESP preorder options which seems to line up pretty much one-to-one.


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## M.U.Y.A. (Nov 30, 2022)

Som


zw470 said:


> Have any of the 2022 guitars even made it to stores besides some camo Snakebytes?


Some have made their way. Very few though.


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## Shawn (Nov 30, 2022)

Crash Dandicoot said:


> I'd like to see the concord headstock return, as well as fair game on custom orders for the reverse banana.
> 
> Meanwhile, in reality... I'll keep asking for them to bring it back until they do:
> 
> View attachment 116750


I actually really really like that.


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## BillCosby (Dec 4, 2022)

I'm STILL waiting for the new Black Metal 7s (EX and Phoenix), and the H3-1007 to frigging show up in stores SINCE JANUARY. They better not announce anything until they actually make some guitars available before they inevitably raise the prices on them next year.


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## FearTheDeer (Dec 5, 2022)

Apex1rg7x said:


> My last CS order took roughly 16 months when I was quoted 8-10. Unfortunately it's the way it is now days. I've seen 2-3 years quoted for new USA orders. I don't see them putting out anything new when the 2022 stuff hasn't really shipped yet.



Yup. Was told 12-14 months when I placed the order for an ESP USA I ordered 18 months ago. No word yet. It’s not really a big deal but at this point I’d be surprised if I see it before the two-year mark.


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## Celtic Frosted Flakes (Dec 7, 2022)

zw470 said:


> Have any of the 2022 guitars even made it to stores besides some camo Snakebytes?



According to Randall Pearson/Chondro Guitars he is expecting to receive 72 of the 2022 LTDs within the next few days.

He is also claiming that few stores will get this first run.


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## Jeff (Dec 7, 2022)

JD27 said:


> More exciting models, finishes, and options not available until 2024.


It’s true.


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 7, 2022)

zw470 said:


> Probably in the same shipping container as my Snakebyte


Interesting, there are thousands of containers at the bottom of the ocean and estimated 12,000 floating around freely. 






When containers go overboard: cargo-partner







www.cargo-partner.com


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## Samark (Dec 8, 2022)

FearTheDeer said:


> Yup. Was told 12-14 months when I placed the order for an ESP USA I ordered 18 months ago. No word yet. It’s not really a big deal but at this point I’d be surprised if I see it before the two-year mark.


I believe their head builder / guy who managed the shop moved to James Tyler a few months ago. Likely didn’t help things


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 24, 2022)

It took almost a whole year, but I finally see some 2022 LTDs in stock









ESP/LTD


Dave's Guitar Shop is one of the largest independent guitar retailers in the Midwest! Shop our large selection of Fender, Gibson, Paul Reed Smith, Martin, Taylor, Rickenbacker and much, much more! We ship our new and used inventory worldwide.




www.davesguitar.com


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## metalstrike (Dec 27, 2022)

ESP's pricing in the states just puzzles me. Like why would anyone pay nearly 4 times more for this ESP Arrow: 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ArrowOA2--esp-original-arrow-electric-guitar-andromeda-ii 

than just buy this LTD 1000 Arrow?









ESP LTD Arrow-1000 - Violet Andromeda


Solidbody Electric Guitar with Mahogany Body, Maple Neck, Macassar Ebony Fingerboard, 2 Active Humbucking Pickups, and Floyd Rose Tremolo - Violet Andromeda




www.sweetwater.com





Maybe some diehards ESP peeps can explain it to me cause I don't get it? The differences I see are the original has a better bridge, tuners, switch, comes with a case and (probably) much better craftsmanship/finish. But I've heard great things about the 1000 series lately plus it even has stainless steel frets where the original doesn't (LOL!). For 3k, sure why not? 4k is already pushing it into nah territory but 5.5k is just crazy! Is there something else I'm missing or is the ESP on the headstock just worth that much to some?


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## possumkiller (Dec 27, 2022)

metalstrike said:


> ESP's pricing in the states just puzzles me. Like why would anyone pay nearly 4 times more for this ESP Arrow:
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ArrowOA2--esp-original-arrow-electric-guitar-andromeda-ii
> 
> ...


The Esp on the headstock is definitely worth that much.


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## Agalloch (Dec 27, 2022)

metalstrike said:


> ESP's pricing in the states just puzzles me. Like why would anyone pay nearly 4 times more for this ESP Arrow:
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ArrowOA2--esp-original-arrow-electric-guitar-andromeda-ii
> 
> ...



I agree that ESP prices are all over the place. You can import an ESP Original from Japan for way cheaper than buying in the US (most of the time). But I will say that the Original series is MILES ahead of LTD when it comes to craftsmanship. Seriously amazing fit and finish on those guitars. I've owned a few and they've all been absolutely flawless. Also, the nickel frets on all the ESP Originals I've played have been immaculate and ultra-polished. Stainless steel frets don't mean much if the fretwork is subpar.


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## metalstrike (Dec 27, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> I agree that ESP prices are all over the place. You can import an ESP Original from Japan for way cheaper than buying in the US (most of the time). But I will say that the Original series is MILES ahead of LTD when it comes to craftsmanship. Seriously amazing fit and finish on those guitars. I've owned a few and they've all been absolutely flawless. Also, the nickel frets on all the ESP Originals I've played have been immaculate and ultra-polished. Stainless steel frets don't mean much if the fretwork is subpar.


For sure I have heard amazing things about ESP original craftsmanship. I wish I could test both side by side just to see what kind of difference there is. You are right about fretwork being much more important than material. I think its more that anything in the 5k range is a hard sell for me unless it's nearly perfect. Maybe ESP original is but not living in Japan limits my access! Maybe I'll import one someday to try but am apprehensive buying something that pricey overseas sight unseen with limited recourse concerning returns.

I see other companies doing similar things with pricing for their highest production tiers as well. Fender has the standard YJM strat for around $2k where the CS variants that come in different colors are $5.5k. Can't really speak to the value there either since I haven't played one but hey people buy them anyway so there is something there I guess.


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## Agalloch (Dec 28, 2022)

metalstrike said:


> For sure I have heard amazing things about ESP original craftsmanship. I wish I could test both side by side just to see what kind of difference there is. You are right about fretwork being much more important than material. I think its more that anything in the 5k range is a hard sell for me unless it's nearly perfect. Maybe ESP original is but not living in Japan limits my access! Maybe I'll import one someday to try but am apprehensive buying something that pricey overseas sight unseen with limited recourse concerning returns.
> 
> I see other companies doing similar things with pricing for their highest production tiers as well. Fender has the standard YJM strat for around $2k where the CS variants that come in different colors are $5.5k. Can't really speak to the value there either since I haven't played one but hey people buy them anyway so there is something there I guess.



Yeah, I get that. I wouldn't spend $5K on a new guitar either. Not because they're not completely excellent--they are--just because I think that's too much for me to spend on ANY guitar. That said, I was able to snag a few ESPs at awesome prices from Japan (and you can find used Originals for pretty solid prices on Reverb sometimes too) and they're absolutely the most consistent and high-quality guitars I've ever played.


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## narad (Dec 28, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> I agree that ESP prices are all over the place. You can import an ESP Original from Japan for way cheaper than buying in the US (most of the time). But I will say that the Original series is MILES ahead of LTD when it comes to craftsmanship. Seriously amazing fit and finish on those guitars. I've owned a few and they've all been absolutely flawless. Also, the nickel frets on all the ESP Originals I've played have been immaculate and ultra-polished. Stainless steel frets don't mean much if the fretwork is subpar.



FWIW, ESP touts that the frets on the newer guitar are a material that sits somewhere between traditional nickel steel and stainless. They have a name for it, but I can't remember. But ya, maybe marketing BS, but that's the current pitch anyway.


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## cardinal (Dec 28, 2022)

I think ESP original series just use Jescar nickel frets. 

FWIW E-IIs are at least sanely priced and are awesome. If OS prices got you down, don't overlook the E-II line


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## Emperoff (Dec 28, 2022)

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, but... Can anyone explain me the real differences between an "ESP" and a "E-II"?

I am severely GAS'd by the E-IIs arrow 7s, so...


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## Agalloch (Dec 28, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, but... Can anyone explain me the real differences between an "ESP" and a "E-II"?
> 
> I am severely GAS'd by the E-IIs arrow 7s, so...



Someone will probably explain it better but think of the E-II line as a Gibson Standard and the ESP Original as a Gibson Custom Shop.

My understanding is that every ESP Original is made individually in ESP's custom shop. Even the standard mdoels like a black ESP Horizon-I are "made to order." So they don't do "runs" they just make the orders as they come in from dealers and customers. The Original series are made alongside the crazy, totally custom guitars that ESP also does. This is in contrast to the E-II line (still awesome guitars) that are made on a production line.


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## cardinal (Dec 28, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, but... Can anyone explain me the real differences between an "ESP" and a "E-II"?
> 
> I am severely GAS'd by the E-IIs arrow 7s, so...


I don't think the production lines have ever been officially explained, so it's all guessing. 

All I know is that the E-IIs I've played are awesome.


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## possumkiller (Dec 28, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, but... Can anyone explain me the real differences between an "ESP" and a "E-II"?
> 
> I am severely GAS'd by the E-IIs arrow 7s, so...


The E-II is a line by Esp that isn't good enough to wear the name.


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## possumkiller (Dec 28, 2022)

It's like if every Fender made outside the US was called Squier. Then the regular factory and team built custom Fenders were called F-II and only the master built guitars were allowed to have the Fender name.


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## cardinal (Dec 28, 2022)

I have some E-II Eclipses that I prefer over the Standard and Original Series versions that I had at the same time. The E-II thicker bodies work better for me and the fretwork was just as good.


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## Shawn (Dec 28, 2022)

cardinal said:


> I have some E-II Eclipses that I prefer over the Standard and Original Series versions that I had at the same time. The E-II thicker bodies work better for me and the fretwork was just as good.


I absolutely love my E-II.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 28, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, but... Can anyone explain me the real differences between an "ESP" and a "E-II"?
> 
> I am severely GAS'd by the E-IIs arrow 7s, so...


E-II is the old Standard line. Made in Japan but not AS extravagant (I guess that's the word? ) due to being more mass produced.

ESP seems to be reserved for everything made in the higher-end custom shops. IE: Original Series, Signature Series, and custom jobs.

As said above it's like Gibson USA vs Gibson Custom. Ibanez Prestige vs Ibanez J.Custom/LACS/Sugi.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 28, 2022)

...Honestly the name change doesn't bother me, but at this rate I wish ESP would go back to the old name because it's been like a decade since the transition and people are still confused.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 28, 2022)

ESP loves sub-branding, I don't see that changing anytime soon.


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## Emperoff (Dec 28, 2022)

Ok, so E-IIs are the same stuff as the old "plain ESP" guitars. All good then!


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## zimbloth (Dec 28, 2022)

cardinal said:


> I have some E-II Eclipses that I prefer over the Standard and Original Series versions that I had at the same time. The E-II thicker bodies work better for me and the fretwork was just as good.


Thats definitely not the case these days. We've had to send back dozens and dozens of E-IIs due to poor fretwork in the past year. Original Series are infinitely higher quality, and also the prices of E-IIs have jumped up massively this year. Frankly, given there are E-IIs that cost over $3000 now, I think it makes more sense to save up for a real ESP.


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## Swarm (Dec 29, 2022)

zimbloth said:


> Thats definitely not the case these days. We've had to send back dozens and dozens of E-IIs due to poor fretwork in the past year. Original Series are infinitely higher quality, and also the prices of E-IIs have jumped up massively this year. Frankly, given there are E-IIs that cost over $3000 now, I think it makes more sense to save up for a real ESP.


My SS ESPs and my friend's E-IIs are flawless in every aspect and make me wonder what could be better on the OS but knowing that the E-IIs are taking a dip in quality is making me really sad. MIJ ESP is supposed to be a safe space where you always get a great guitar, I really hope it doesn't become the norm considering there are some questionable choices on the E-II line apart from the name already (like switching to the regular thin U on the MII, why?)


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## pahulkster (Dec 29, 2022)

That is really disappointing to hear


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## possumkiller (Dec 29, 2022)

Swarm said:


> MIJ ESP is supposed to be a safe space where you always get a great guitar, I really hope it doesn't become the norm considering there are some questionable choices on the E-II line apart from the name already (like switching to the regular thin U on the MII, why?)


They are not ESP anymore so they can't be as good as the real ESPs. They want a tiered product line.

The prices are getting way out of hand though. A new M400 is close to 1000 euros on reverb. That is straight up ridiculous.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 29, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> Wake me up when they put this out-



Parker at Diablo Guitars (and former Ryche guitarist) has one of these on order…..$13K


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## Swarm (Dec 29, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> They are not ESP anymore so they can't be as good as the real ESPs. They want a tiered product line.
> 
> The prices are getting way out of hand though. A new M400 is close to 1000 euros on reverb. That is straight up ridiculous.


They are supposed to be the same thing as Standard Series ESPs which are fantastic guitars in my experience and the E-IIs I've seen in the flesh seemed great (did not play them though, I'm a lefty). As for the 400 series being 1000e, I agree it's crazy. I paid 820e new for my EC1000VB back in 2013! And actually I paid 1250e to get an EC1000FR in september which is stupid money but I've waited for a lefty Eclipse with a Floyd for more than 10 years and it's extremely hard to get it so I don't really regret it even though it cost more than my ESPs lol


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## Dudley (Dec 29, 2022)

zimbloth said:


> Thats definitely not the case these days. We've had to send back dozens and dozens of E-IIs due to poor fretwork in the past year. Original Series are infinitely higher quality, and also the prices of E-IIs have jumped up massively this year. Frankly, given there are E-IIs that cost over $3000 now, I think it makes more sense to save up for a real ESP.



Absolutely this. I've owned a few E-II's, and moved them on, and played a lot in stores. Some of them are very nice guitars but a lot come across to me as higher-end LTD's of years gone by. It's staggering the amount of fit and finish issues that people have detailed online compared to the old Standard Series. I've seen more B stock E-II's for sale in the last month than I did in many years of the SS being in existence. Some flaws are cosmetic, some structural.

It's all well and good people saying that E-II is the old Standard Series, and I agree in terms of where it sits in the ESP lineup it is, but that doesn't mean to say that they're built with the same tolerances, strict QC or profit margins in mind... The fact is that more lemons are making it out of the door than ever before. I didn't mind the change to E-II when it happened and bought some of the new line very quickly, but none of them have stacked up favourably to the old SS Eclipse, Horizon and M-II that have outlasted them all.

In the UK at least, some E-II's are going for absolutely staggering costs. Prices fluctuate but some are close to the £3K mark, which is firmly above a bare-bones Aristides or certain Mayones. It also makes the Original Series ESP's, which are as close to perfect consistently as I've ever experienced in guitars, that much more desirable and worth the extra cash. I picked up my last 2 OS' direct from Japan for just a few £100 more than some E-II's are listed over here.


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## Velokki (Dec 29, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> They are not ESP anymore so they can't be as good as the real ESPs. They want a tiered product line.
> 
> The prices are getting way out of hand though. A new M400 is close to 1000 euros on reverb. That is straight up ridiculous.


I hate when this hearsay is thrown around. I also worked for an ESP retailer in 2013, and know that E-II replaced Standard ESPs.
While I understand the feeling that you get, when you look at a headstock with E-II on it instead of the good ol' golden ESP letters, you get the feeling "that's not real ESP!"... it's just not true. They are the same, and I've owned multiple older Standard Series ESPs and E-IIs. To me, they've always been top notch quality.

So it really, really saddens me if what Nick from Axe Palace is saying is true, that newer E-IIs suck  It just tells that ESP has dropped the ball when it comes to building guitars / QC. Price hikes and dropping quality? Not a good combo.

And for anyone to say that I'm wrong on the E-II / ESP Standard thing, let's quote their website directly:
*"ESP E-II*
_Formerly called “ESP Standard”, the ESP E-II Series are guitars built at the ESP factory in Japan. While being less expensive than the handcrafted guitars from the ESP Custom Shop, ESP E-II models are made to very high standards in quality, with components and aesthetic designs that make them some of the best factory-produced guitars and basses the world has ever seen. Many well-known artists as well as everyday hard-working musicians have turned to ESP E-II for instruments they use both in studios and on tour."_

You can find it here yourself:








What Are The Differences Between ESP’s Brands?


We get a lot of questions about the differences between our various guitar brands, and with as many different kind of guitars and basses as we ma...




www.espguitars.com





The one sentence that ties it all together, is "_Formerly called “ESP Standard”, the ESP E-II Series are guitars built at the ESP factory in Japan."._

E-IIs have always been great.

But LTD Elites and Edwards have almost always been huge letdowns. I remember we shipped many of them back at ESP because of bad fretwork and they just felt cheap compared to E-IIs or older Standard Series ESPs.


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## Dudley (Dec 29, 2022)

Velokki said:


> But LTD Elites and Edwards have almost always been huge letdowns. I remember we shipped many of them back at ESP because of bad fretwork and they just felt cheap compared to E-IIs or older Standard Series ESPs.


I'm pretty sure LTD Elite was just the name given in the USA to E-II's for their first introductory year. USA called them LTRD Elite, rest of the world called them E-II. They announced they were being built in the same Japanese factory as the rest of the ESP/E-II lines and it was just a one year deal, for some reason, before transitioning fully to E-II.

I may be misremembering now as it was almost a decade ago, but I'm sure that was my recollection of how it was announced at NAMM and how some of the bigger dealers like BMusic talked about the change.


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## Velokki (Dec 29, 2022)

Dudley said:


> I'm pretty sure LTD Elite was just the name given in the USA to E-II's for their first introductory year. USA called them LTRD Elite, rest of the world called them E-II. They announced they were being built in the same Japanese factory as the rest of the ESP/E-II lines and it was just a one year deal, for some reason, before transitioning fully to E-II.
> 
> I may be misremembering now as it was almost a decade ago, but I'm. sure that was my recollection of how it was announced at NAMM and how some of the bigger dealers like Music talked about the change.


No, that is completely wrong. LTD Elite was just a glorified way to overcharge for their 1000 series stuff. Fancier tops etc. But in my experience all the LTD Elite ones were quite bad. Literally all of the 4 guitars of their Snapper design we had in the beginning had to be looked at by our shop luthier. The frets were sprouting real bad. One of them had a dead volume pot when it arrived. I seriously wasn't impressed.

And one more thing to add. Even though the recent years of ESP Standard Series has been E-II, if the last year has seen sub-par quality, one shouldn't blame the E-II badge on that. I mean; Ibanez Prestige are known for their great fretwork - but some of years back there were some really shitty specimens of RG752 that I tried here in Helsinki. All 3 of them had seriously bad fret sprout and one had a dead spot. If Ibanez had changed the Prestige line name to "Ibanez Prime" then, people would be poised to blame the brand change on it. The drop in quality, or occasional QC problems come and go, but it's not necessarily about the badge on the headstock.

I mean, Jackson didn't need to change their product lines or rebrand their custom shop in order to ship unintentional 23-fret Soloists or other complete QC nightmares  They just started pumping shit on unassuming customers that loved their iconic brand!


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## Dudley (Dec 29, 2022)

Velokki said:


> No, that is completely wrong. LTD Elite was just a glorified way to overcharge for their 1000 series stuff. Fancier tops etc. But in my experience all the LTD Elite ones were quite bad. Literally all of the 4 guitars of their Snapper design we had in the beginning had to be looked at by our shop luthier. The frets were sprouting real bad. One of them had a dead volume pot when it arrived. I seriously wasn't impressed.


Interesting. My apologies then if I’ve misremembered! I must admit I didn’t take too much notice of LTD Elite as I never saw any pop up in the EU stores j was looking at that had E-II show up in the same timescale + my potential misunderstanding. In what way, if you don't mind me asking, do you think they were just overcharging for their 1000 series stuff? The press release from them stated they're made in the same facility as ESP/E-II:

"ESP Guitars (NAMM Demo Room 231D) has announced an entire new range of guitar and bass products under the brand name LTD Elite. The LTD Elite line is being made at the same manufacturing facility in Japan as the company’s high-end ESP branded instruments."

If you think that they're made in the same facility but to a lower standard that is literally how I, and many other unlucky buyers, feel about E-II as well, haha.

It's definitely not just the last year of E-II that has had quality issues. I had a first year E-II with wonky side dots, flaking paint and other issues and a 2018 or 2019, can't recall off-hand, which had a whole host of issues.

Again, not a headstock/logo snob - I bought straight away only caring about getting a guitar of a similar quality and not caring what logo it had, but my experiences haven't been positive. Perhaps the older Standard Series I've owned and tried were just really good examples and I've set the bar too high for what to expect? Either way, seeing people sending Standard Series back for inlays not being properly glued in or bad Floyd routes was unheard of, but it certainly isn't on E-II.


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## Velokki (Dec 29, 2022)

Dudley said:


> Interesting. In what way, if you don't mind me asking, do you think they were just overcharging for their 1000 series stuff? The press release from them stated they're made in the same facility as ESP/E-II:
> 
> "ESP Guitars (NAMM Demo Room 231D) has announced an entire new range of guitar and bass products under the brand name LTD Elite. The LTD Elite line is being made at the same manufacturing facility in Japan as the company’s high-end ESP branded instruments."
> 
> ...



Yeah! That's exactly how I feel, haha! To be honest, the 1000 series was better than the LTD Elites. Purely empirical experience, though. The whole thing seemed like their attempt to "try to one-up the LTD Deluxe 1000-series" but they badly failed. And were priced right between the 1000 series and Standard Series / E-II. That's why no one bought them, lol, and they were soon discontinued.

Either we must've really lucked out since none of our E-IIs had problems, and I've owned many and all have been perfect (currently own E-II Horizon + M-2). And that's why I rate them as good as the ESP Standard Series - my experience is great with them. And in addition to that; ESPs own website says that they're identical, since the E-II _is _the old Standard Series.

But I certainly can't speak for the last year or two; I don't own any of their recent guitars.


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## Zado (Dec 29, 2022)

I recall trying dissapointing E-II models when the first came out, maybe things got fixed nowadays. Might be the usual first batch syndrome many brands suffer from.


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## cardinal (Dec 29, 2022)

FWIW, there are lemons everywhere. I had a SS Eclipse that had a high fret so bad that the frets a half- and whole-step behind it were inaudible buzz. I had a MIJ and USA MII that both ran out of room on the truss rod. I did have an EII with one spot where a full step bend choked out unless the action was ~1.5mm or higher. But I have other OS, USA, and EIIs that were awesome from top to bottom.


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## yan12 (Dec 29, 2022)

I think ESP makes good guitars for the money. ESP Japan doesn't mean what it used to as they have expanded to have several lines. The real custom shop is still as good as it gets, but 13k for a Ryche guitar is comical to me.

I am going to say no more ESP USA for me. I don't like the limited options, especially only using mahogany for bodies, for those price points...but they are nice guitars. 
At 4k prices I will go Schecter USA all day long. They can't be beat IMHO in 3k-4k range for what you get by any builder. Not in my experience with that range of price in the last 5 years.


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## possumkiller (Dec 29, 2022)

Velokki said:


> I hate when this hearsay is thrown around. I also worked for an ESP retailer in 2013, and know that E-II replaced Standard ESPs.
> While I understand the feeling that you get, when you look at a headstock with E-II on it instead of the good ol' golden ESP letters, you get the feeling "that's not real ESP!"... it's just not true. They are the same, and I've owned multiple older Standard Series ESPs and E-IIs. To me, they've always been top notch quality.
> 
> So it really, really saddens me if what Nick from Axe Palace is saying is true, that newer E-IIs suck  It just tells that ESP has dropped the ball when it comes to building guitars / QC. Price hikes and dropping quality? Not a good combo.
> ...


That's literally what I said. The E-IIs are not Esp anymore so they aren't as good anymore.


Velokki said:


> No, that is completely wrong. LTD Elite was just a glorified way to overcharge for their 1000 series stuff. Fancier tops etc. But in my experience all the LTD Elite ones were quite bad. Literally all of the 4 guitars of their Snapper design we had in the beginning had to be looked at by our shop luthier. The frets were sprouting real bad. One of them had a dead volume pot when it arrived. I seriously wasn't impressed.
> 
> And one more thing to add. Even though the recent years of ESP Standard Series has been E-II, if the last year has seen sub-par quality, one shouldn't blame the E-II badge on that. I mean; Ibanez Prestige are known for their great fretwork - but some of years back there were some really shitty specimens of RG752 that I tried here in Helsinki. All 3 of them had seriously bad fret sprout and one had a dead spot. If Ibanez had changed the Prestige line name to "Ibanez Prime" then, people would be poised to blame the brand change on it. The drop in quality, or occasional QC problems come and go, but it's not necessarily about the badge on the headstock.
> 
> I mean, Jackson didn't need to change their product lines or rebrand their custom shop in order to ship unintentional 23-fret Soloists or other complete QC nightmares  They just started pumping shit on unassuming customers that loved their iconic brand!


Nah, you are completely wrong here. The LTD elite was what became the E-II range. They were available for like a year or less then the exact same guitars came out with E-II logos.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 29, 2022)

RevDrucifer said:


> Wake me up when they put this out-


If DeGarmo ever comes back and releases an LTD sig based on this or the Daggers strat, I'm gonna do whatever I can to get either one.


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## Velokki (Dec 30, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> That's literally what I said. The E-IIs are not Esp anymore so they aren't as good anymore.
> 
> Nah, you are completely wrong here. The LTD elite was what became the E-II range. They were available for like a year or less then the exact same guitars came out with E-II logos.


No, no and no.

From PremierGuitar:
_ESP logo will now be reserved for just custom shop models and the Original Series, as well as the lion's share of the Signature Series, which will also be put together in the Japanese facility from now on.


So, where does the LTD Elite banner come in? Todd Binder, an integral part of ESP's product development team, brings us up to date with what's happening.

"LTD Elite bridges the gap between LTD and ESP Standard by offering a high-performance instrument priced slightly lower than the Standard brand," he tells us.


"Unlike other LTD models that are manufactured in Indonesia and Korea, the Elite line is made in Japan at the same facility as the ESP Standard Series. The LTD Elite brand is for players who would love to own an ESP, but simply can't quite justify the price tag that comes with our top of the line premium brand."

The production of LTD guitars will be overseen by ESP USA and the result is that the Elite series, irrespective of what's written on the headstock, can be considered as proper ESP guitars, simply because they're built in Japan by the same luthiers who are involved in the current ESP Standard Series._

*Like it or don't, whether quality is good or bad nowadays; I'm 100% sure about these; E-II replaced the Standard Series. It's a logo change on the headstock. LTD Elites were a different product line, priced between the 1000 series and E-II/Standard, but made in Japan and not Korea. It was a real in-between series that sold very little and didn't find its place, so it was discontinued. I worked for an ESP retailer when this happened and vividly remember the reps telling how it was. And you can find the info all over the internet, when you navigate with web.archive.org or look at old NAMM videos.*


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## possumkiller (Dec 30, 2022)

Velokki said:


> *Like it or don't, whether quality is good or bad nowadays; I'm 100% sure about these; E-II replaced the Standard Series. It's a logo change on the headstock. LTD Elites were a different product line, priced between the 1000 series and E-II/Standard, but made in Japan and not Korea. It was a real in-between series that sold very little and didn't find its place, so it was discontinued. I worked for an ESP retailer when this happened and vividly remember the reps telling how it was. And you can find the info all over the internet, when you navigate with web.archive.org or look at old NAMM videos.*


No way man. Just no. 

2013 is when all this bullshit started. It was the last year of ESP Standard Series. Even the headstock logo had already changed to the new font but still said ESP. The LTD Elites were sold alongside the standards and made in the same place by the same people. They were just wanting to get ESP off the headstock of the regular factory guitars and trying to find something they could make work. They experimented with a new ESP logo and the LTD Elite branding and wound up going with E-II.








Used 2013 ESP MII Standard EMG Electric Guitar Black #SS1333402


This pre-owned ESP MII features a neck-through design with a Maple neck topped with a Rosewood fretboard. A reverse headstock features the old-school ESP logo for a classic look, while the Floyd Rose Original locking tremolo adds functionality. EMG 81 humbuckers in both the neck and bridge...




www.themusiczoo.com





The LTD Elite was some failed experiment at renaming the standard series before they came up with E-II. They took the same exact LTD Elite guitars from the 2013 lineup and put the E-II logo on them for 2014 after nobody was going to pay as much for an LTD as they would for a standard ESP. From 2014 the standard series ESP logo was completely gone and replaced with E-II logos on all the formerly ESP standard and LTD Elite models. 








ESP LTD Elite M-II Cherry Sunburst #EL1321301


A great Japan-made ESP at a price many shredders can afford! This is a used LTD Elite M-II with a cherry sunburst finish over a flame maple top. The guitar has a fast-playing maple neck with an ebony board, and two ripping EMG 81 humbuckers. It's in overall excellent condition with the original...




www.themusiczoo.com













ESP E-II M-II FM Amber Cherry Sunburst 2014 #ES1421605


This ESP E-II M-II FM is a real rock machine! This solid Japanese made ESP boasts an upgraded Sustainiac pickup in the neck and the original EMG bridge pickup - a pair that offers the best off the riffing and soloing worlds. Other features include an alder body with flame maple top, a maple...




www.themusiczoo.com


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## OmegaSlayer (Dec 30, 2022)

I cut my smoking habit severely at the beginning of the year so that I could save for my first ESP (LTD actually)
I so wanted an Arrow in Violet andromeda.
The thing here in EU went from € 1200 to € 1700

Honestly I can't justify purchasing an Indonesian or Korean instrument for that price
And it's not that I have problems with Indo or Korean gear, I have many, I have problems for those prices for run of the mill EMGs and a Floyd 1000...it's a guitar with a lot of spare wood but a great color (which has some chance to be flawed)

And I seriously wonder how ESP/LTD can keep up their market share with those prices


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## rowsi (Dec 30, 2022)

Velokki said:


> No, no and no.





possumkiller said:


> No way man. Just no.


You guys realize that you're both right to some degree?

Both models from ESP standard series and LTD elite series made it into the E-II branding.
Example one: The M-I was labeled ESP in 2012 (and before), didn't show up in the 2013 catalog and reappeared in 2014 labeled as E-II.
Example two: ST-1 was labeled as LTD elite in 2013. No such model was present in 2010, 11 or 12, neither as ESP standard series nor LTD elite. This model was labeled as E-II in 2014 onward.

As the whole LTD elite thing was short lived and didn't encompass as many models as ESP standard series it stands to reason that people don't remember as many LTD elite models as ESP standard series models.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 30, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If DeGarmo ever comes back and releases an LTD sig based on this or the Daggers strat, I'm gonna do whatever I can to get either one.



We can split the cost and have shared custody!


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Dec 30, 2022)

I'm here to say I need more Random Stars in my life. Everyone does. The SD-2 is freakishly good to me, and they need to have more of those out there, even just one per line. 

I was finally able to stop losing sleep over not finding a good Ironbird at a reasonable price because of the SD-2. So in 2023, for the money these instruments are going for I'd love to see a couple of finish options, or add them to the USA line (black on slime green or ultraviolet pink splatter? Yes please). I'm figuring I need to go custom route for this shape, which absolutely blows because that is a hefty investment, not at all practical.


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## soul_lip_mike (Dec 30, 2022)

I’m hoping that Javier 8 string strat is released this year.


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## Velokki (Dec 31, 2022)

possumkiller said:


> No way man. Just no.
> 
> 2013 is when all this bullshit started. It was the last year of ESP Standard Series. Even the headstock logo had already changed to the new font but still said ESP. The LTD Elites were sold alongside the standards and made in the same place by the same people. They were just wanting to get ESP off the headstock of the regular factory guitars and trying to find something they could make work. They experimented with a new ESP logo and the LTD Elite branding and wound up going with E-II.
> 
> ...



I would be glad to agree with you that this is what happened. But your theory is just your theory, until you can provide any proof - press releases, first-hand accounts from employees, anything?
And that's why we have to go with what is the official information; which is that E-II replaced, and is the current Standard Series.

If LTD Elite was discontinued after its' shortlived life, of course those builds would be carried over to LTD or E-II lines, if there were hundreds or thousands of guitars already half-ready. Then there's certainly a chance if you bought a 2014 Snapper, that it was a 2013 Elite one with an E-II logo. However - that doesn't mean that a 2015 E-II Eclipse is any worse than a 2010 Standard Series Eclipse, which is the bigger picture here.

You're essentially taking your empirical observations and calling them facts, which is quite a stretch. I'm willing to agree with you and admit you're right, if you can provide some solid proof for your theory!

I wouldn't be so passionate about this, but I worked for an ESP retailer in 2013 when this shit happened. We were all confused about LTD, LTD Elite, E-II, ESP Original, ESP USA. It was very confusing. But two of the reps we had, said the E-II line is exactly the same as the Standard Series. And that's what the press release says, too!

So any other theory is essentially just a theory invented by someone... and will need some proof to back it up.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 31, 2022)

Velokki said:


> I would be glad to agree with you that this is what happened. But your theory is just your theory, until you can provide any proof - press releases, first-hand accounts from employees, anything?
> And that's why we have to go with what is the official information; which is that E-II replaced, and is the current Standard Series.
> 
> If LTD Elite was discontinued after its' shortlived life, of course those builds would be carried over to LTD or E-II lines, if there were hundreds or thousands of guitars already half-ready. Then there's certainly a chance if you bought a 2014 Snapper, that it was a 2013 Elite one with an E-II logo. However - that doesn't mean that a 2015 E-II Eclipse is any worse than a 2010 Standard Series Eclipse, which is the bigger picture here.
> ...



I've also worked music retail, and honestly, just because a rep says something, doesn't necessarily mean it's entirely true. 

Remember, these guys are sales people. Their primary job is to sell these to you. So they can sometimes get a little wishy-washy on facts if they can make a particular aspect of the brand seem better or give more well "packaged" explanations. 

It's not like a lot of these companies even educate their reps that great, so sometimes they just don't know. 

Not saying either of you are right or wrong, it's just I wouldn't take anything as gospel from reps.


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## RevelGTR (Dec 31, 2022)

LTD Elite and the Standard series both got folded into the E-II line, there is zero question about that. You could buy numerous E-II models that were branded LTD Elite the year prior.


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## xzacx (Dec 31, 2022)

A press release is equally as unreliable as a sales rep. Think about what those are for a minute—a document written about a product/service/etc., by the company making it. At the very least, it’s portraying said product in the most flattering way possible in attempt to guide the narrative about it. I get press releases multiple times a week through my work and the amount of inaccuracies in them, whether intentional or not, is to the point where we think of them as more of a starting point than final word. What’s omitted in a press release often tells more than what’s in it. That doesn’t mean this is wrong, I truly don’t know, but I sure wouldn’t take the word of a press release as the answer.


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## Velokki (Dec 31, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've also worked music retail, and honestly, just because a rep says something, doesn't necessarily mean it's entirely true.
> 
> Remember, these guys are sales people. Their primary job is to sell these to you. So they can sometimes get a little wishy-washy on facts if they can make a particular aspect of the brand seem better or give more well "packaged" explanations.
> 
> ...


I know. I know this quite extensively, and reps sometimes get it wrong. But it was very well clarified in multiple instances, that E-II is the old ESP Standard series now. If that isn't true, then who can be trusted? ESP said so on the website, too. So you're basically saying that ESP has dropped their quality, even though they are made in the same factory, and they're trying to cover it up and smokescreen customers with a brand name change? It doesn't add up.

I think a lot of people have proclivity to draw conclusions when something noticeable and tangible happens. A political party changes its' name. A band renews their logo. A change of the logo on a guitar.

The change to E-II launched a large speculation whether ESPs guitars are as good as they once were. It was a clear watershed moment. Suddenly they didn't have the traditional ESP logo anymore, which for a lot of people, myself included, was a big part of the ESP experience! If I'm gonna spend 2-3K on a new guitar, it'd better have the ESP logo, since that's what I'm paying for - a REAL ESP. Not having the ESP logo, and having the E-II logo instead, leads a lot of people judging the instruments with their eyes. "What's this, is this even real ESP? I don't want that."

The question is; are the guitars as good as they once were? I've not had any problems with E-II guitars, but a 2003 Horizon I owned was a dead plank. For all I care, my empirical evidence suggests the E-II are better. I've only played great E-IIs. I've owned 4 older Standard Series ones, too. One of them was indeed a dud.

It would be a feasible assumption that ESP did dump their LTD Elite guitars under the E-II name in 2014, but that was literally a 1-year thing if that ever happened. I know that they did do clearance sales on the LTD Elite stuff back then, so did they clear out their LTD Elite line stock, and then started to produce those models under E-II standards?

But for real - anyone shouting "E-II is not real ESP, everyone knows that" - please provide any kind of proof. It's official info that the E-II replaced the old SS.

If someone provided even a minimal amount of proof about their QC dropping because of the E-II change, I'd love to check it out. For ex. a QC comparison of, let's say, 2010 Standard Series Eclipse and a 2020 E-II Eclipse. Even if on an isolated incident you could say that, hey, this is clearly lower QC than they used to have, it would help proving your theory. My experience (until the year 2020) is that the E-II stuff is fabulous. I've not tried their most recent guitars, so I can't comment on them.


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## possumkiller (Dec 31, 2022)

Velokki said:


> I know. I know this quite extensively, and reps sometimes get it wrong. But it was very well clarified in multiple instances, that E-II is the old ESP Standard series now. If that isn't true, then who can be trusted? ESP said so on the website, too. So you're basically saying that ESP has dropped their quality, even though they are made in the same factory, and they're trying to cover it up and smokescreen customers with a brand name change? It doesn't add up.
> 
> I think a lot of people have proclivity to draw conclusions when something noticeable and tangible happens. A political party changes its' name. A band renews their logo. A change of the logo on a guitar.
> 
> ...


I mean, if it were a real Esp they would put the Esp logo on it and not small print on the back of the headstock that it's an Esp product just like they do with LTDs. I don't know if the quality has slipped since the name change, but they definitely wanted people to have to pay more to get a real Esp. That was the entire point of changing from the standard series to begin with. It wasn't good enough to use the rondels on the back of the headstock to differentiate between standard, signature, original, and customs. They wanted it clear on the face of the headstock that you were too cheap to spring for the original series or a custom order.


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## mlp187 (Dec 31, 2022)

10 years later and we’re all still debating the ESP branding nightmare.

I doubt there was an ever a difference between SS / LTD Elite / E-II. I’d like to see it on paper, but also, I kind of don’t care all that much.

All I actually care to know is that their shit is out of control expensive now.

Still looking forward to those 2022 LTDs for 2023, lol.


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## possumkiller (Dec 31, 2022)

mlp187 said:


> I doubt there was an ever a difference between SS / LTD Elite / E-II. I’d like to see it on paper, but also, I kind of don’t care all that much.


There wasn't. It's all the same stuff.


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## RevelGTR (Dec 31, 2022)

Velokki said:


> .
> 
> It would be a feasible assumption that ESP did dump their LTD Elite guitars under the E-II name in 2014, but that was literally a 1-year thing if that ever happened. I know that they did do clearance sales on the LTD Elite stuff back then, so did they clear out their LTD Elite line stock, and then started to produce those models under E-II standards?
> 
> .


Literally yes, that’s exactly what happened. Look at the E-II Horizon 3 that they still make, now look up the LTD Elite Horizon 3 they made for one year. Same guitar, just a logo change.


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## Velokki (Dec 31, 2022)

RevelGTR said:


> Literally yes, that’s exactly what happened. Look at the E-II Horizon 3 that they still make, now look up the LTD Elite Horizon 3 they made for one year. Same guitar, just a logo change.


IMO there's nothing bad or strange if they continued to make a model as an E-II, that was first introduced under the LTD Elite brand. This does not confirm any theory, that those E-II instruments would be of any lower quality than the Standard Series used to be. I know for a fact that in the UK, the first LTD Elites were far inferior quality than E-II or Standard Series. I know, because I handled the first shipments with my own hands back then. They were seriously not the kind of Standard Series quality, or even LTD Deluxe for that matter! But then again, that's just my empirical experience!

Even when they started to make those same models under E-II, this doesn't confirm that the quality would be any less than the Standard Series. For all I know, when they quit the LTD Elite series, and subsequently raised the prices of those Elite models that were now under the more expensive E-II brand, they'd most likely simplify all QC processes and start making all the guitars with the same kind of process. But hey - we can't know for sure since we don't have access to the factory's day-to-day internal processes.

But to exaggerate the flaw in your logic - take an EC-1000 Evertune. That succesful model later made it's way to an E-II Evertune. With the same logic you used there, that's the same EC-1000, just a logo change?

I'm just saying, just because you see a model that was introduced under LTD Elite, and is now made under E-II, you cannot just say "they're of lower quality", even though the original LTD Elites clearly were.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 31, 2022)

Quality is a range. ESP's manufacturing capabilities in Japan have been under a LOT of stresses lately, some external and others internal, so it's not surprising that we're seeing the pains as stuff that normally would be stopped from leaving the factory makes it to dealers who are also desperate.


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## Andromalia (Dec 31, 2022)

The one thing I really dislike abouit LTDs is the usually super ugly logo in an atrocious color match with the guitar color. It's like it's ugly on purpose. There are a few exceptions (mostly, those were the font used is the one from thge ESP newer logos, ie, snakebyte for exemple) but usually the LTD logo is just a sore sight.


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## RevelGTR (Dec 31, 2022)

Velokki said:


> IMO there's nothing bad or strange if they continued to make a model as an E-II, that was first introduced under the LTD Elite brand. This does not confirm any theory, that those E-II instruments would be of any lower quality than the Standard Series used to be. I know for a fact that in the UK, the first LTD Elites were far inferior quality than E-II or Standard Series. I know, because I handled the first shipments with my own hands back then. They were seriously not the kind of Standard Series quality, or even LTD Deluxe for that matter! But then again, that's just my empirical experience!
> 
> Even when they started to make those same models under E-II, this doesn't confirm that the quality would be any less than the Standard Series. For all I know, when they quit the LTD Elite series, and subsequently raised the prices of those Elite models that were now under the more expensive E-II brand, they'd most likely simplify all QC processes and start making all the guitars with the same kind of process. But hey - we can't know for sure since we don't have access to the factory's day-to-day internal processes.
> 
> ...


Brother, the LTD Elite’s were made in the exact same factory as the SS and E-II. One day they stopped slapping an LTD Elite logo on them and started slapping an E-II logo on them. This isn’t based on some kind of logical model transference process, it’s the reality of what happened. 

The example you gave is completely unrelated. They made an LTD Eclipse with an evertune. People bought it, and such they assumed people liked this concept. They started making a higher end eclipse in Japan with an evertune. 

This is so obvious.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 31, 2022)

These ugly fucking raised logos need to die.


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## possumkiller (Dec 31, 2022)

Velokki said:


> IMO there's nothing bad or strange if they continued to make a model as an E-II, that was first introduced under the LTD Elite brand. This does not confirm any theory, that those E-II instruments would be of any lower quality than the Standard Series used to be. I know for a fact that in the UK, the first LTD Elites were far inferior quality than E-II or Standard Series. I know, because I handled the first shipments with my own hands back then. They were seriously not the kind of Standard Series quality, or even LTD Deluxe for that matter! But then again, that's just my empirical experience!
> 
> Even when they started to make those same models under E-II, this doesn't confirm that the quality would be any less than the Standard Series. For all I know, when they quit the LTD Elite series, and subsequently raised the prices of those Elite models that were now under the more expensive E-II brand, they'd most likely simplify all QC processes and start making all the guitars with the same kind of process. But hey - we can't know for sure since we don't have access to the factory's day-to-day internal processes.
> 
> ...


Idk what exactly you're trying to get at. We are all saying the same thing. LTD elite, E-II, and SS are all the same shit with different names. 

A 1000 series LTD is not made in Japan by the same factory as the LTD elite, E-II, and SS. 1000 series LTDs are made in Korea and Indonesia.

The only thing I am saying is that the E-IIs are no longer a real Esp because Esp themselves wanted it that way. Now if you want Esp on the front, you have to pay for something from the Japanese hand mades or a USA.

Other people have been saying the quality of E-II has been slipping since the name change.


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## gunch (Dec 31, 2022)

Does esp know that whatever they try to do apart from the stuff from the 90's nobody really wants? 

GIVE US THE FUCKING CRATE SPRAY FONT LOGOS BACK ESP HOW HARD IS IT


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## Vyn (Dec 31, 2022)

E-II/SS/LTD Elite are all the same product with a different badge.

The issue with QC at the moment is that ESP is going through what every other manufacturer is going through because of the pandemic. Admittedly ESP were behind on E-II production well before the world went to shit albeit to a lesser scale.

Also worth noting that EVERY major manufacturer at the moment is having higher than normal numbers of lemons slip through the cracks lately. Unless you're buying from a dealer you trust I wouldn't be buying sight unseen for a while.


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## feraledge (Jan 5, 2023)

How is it possible that ten years later this shit still bombards the ESP threads?


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## dirtool (Jan 5, 2023)

no news?
no leak?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 5, 2023)

dirtool said:


> no news?
> no leak?


No, ESP hasn't shared anything at all except a couple of sig models revealed and teased last year.
Once again, not surprising because a shiiiiiiiitton of the 2022 lineup still isn't available yet. No way in hell ESP is gonna have any kind of 2023 lineup ready when the 2022 lineup is sitll mostly MIA


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## Mathemagician (Jan 5, 2023)

feraledge said:


> How is it possible that ten years later this shit still bombards the ESP threads?



The less informed people are the louder they are about being wrong.


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## soul_lip_mike (Jan 5, 2023)

dirtool said:


> no news?
> no leak?


There’s the yellow javier 8 string strat that was shown a while back.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2023)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No, ESP hasn't shared anything at all except a couple of sig models revealed and teased last year.
> Once again, not surprising because a shiiiiiiiitton of the 2022 lineup still isn't available yet. No way in hell ESP is gonna have any kind of 2023 lineup ready when the 2022 lineup is sitll mostly MIA



This. 

I don't think folks realize what a shit show ESP has been the last few years, even before the pandemic made it significantly worse.


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## narad (Jan 5, 2023)

ESP is a bonkers company to care about branding with. I love the late 80s stuff. Is it custom shop? Is it standard series? Did they all just get worse the second the custom shop was formally introduced? Some of the best ESPs that have passed through my hands were even later standard series guitars. You just have to take it on a guitar-by-guitar basis. 

I can only comment that it's clear in terms of production that they care a lot about E-II these days -- all the shops here are like 90% E-II when they used to be like 80-90% original series and custom stuff (even many years after E-II branding). Which is sad to me, because the E-IIs may be good guitars but they across the board look like crap in person.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 5, 2023)

soul_lip_mike said:


> There’s the yellow javier 8 string strat that was shown a while back.


That, the Jeff Hanneman LTD sig reissue, and the Kirk Hammett SVs (LTD for sure, not sure if it'll be ESP, ESP USA, or both for the bougie one). That's pretty much it, and probably all you should expect.


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## Kyle Jordan (Jan 6, 2023)

narad said:


> Which is sad to me, because the E-IIs may be good guitars but they across the board look like crap in person.



When you say this, do you mean they do not look good/right to you or their design choices are not your cup of tea?

I ask because for a while now I thought I was crazy or more subconsciously biased than I thought previously. I’ve seen several black E-IIs in person over the years and when I’ve compared to my USA Soloist or other gloss black high end guitars, they looked off and not as nice. Like they don’t visually pop and grab the eye as much. Not really sure how to describe it. And I’m talking gloss black vs gloss black. Not metallic or otherwise.


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## narad (Jan 6, 2023)

Kyle Jordan said:


> When you say this, do you mean they do not look good/right to you or their design choices are not your cup of tea?
> 
> I ask because for a while now I thought I was crazy or more subconsciously biased than I thought previously. I’ve seen several black E-IIs in person over the years and when I’ve compared to my USA Soloist or other gloss black high end guitars, they looked off and not as nice. Like they don’t visually pop and grab the eye as much. Not really sure how to describe it. And I’m talking gloss black vs gloss black. Not metallic or otherwise.



Basically that. It's a bit spec wise, like they choose to do some purple black burst on natural wood. And then that looks terrible when executed that way on crap wood. But also the finish quality is very different. This is pretty apparent on the maziora finishes, which they actually do on a lot of Ltd models and just somehow doesn't look as nice as on original series, even though it's the same finish and presumably the same paint.


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## Kyle Jordan (Jan 6, 2023)

Now I feel slightly less crazy. That really threw me for a loop.


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## narad (Jan 6, 2023)

Kyle Jordan said:


> Now I feel slightly less crazy. That really threw me for a loop.



It kind of reminds me when I first saw an NSX in person (etched into my memories, sometime around 1999). It was black, but the way it was black was totally different than on a $15k car. With the ESP ranges, it doesn't seem to span the whole range -- I see some just randomly not as nice finish on one model, and a different model can have a really stellar paint that makes me feel bad for spending so much on higher end ESPs. Basically I think it's at least something to watch out for if you see a catalog photo / maybe make sure to see the real thing from many angles or in video before buying.


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## zw470 (Jan 6, 2023)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That, the Jeff Hanneman LTD sig reissue, and the Kirk Hammett SVs (LTD for sure, not sure if it'll be ESP, ESP USA, or both for the bougie one). That's pretty much it, and probably all you should expect.



I saw a rumor on FB that the white Vulture was cancelled


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## possumkiller (Jan 6, 2023)

I hope Esp doesn't go the way of BRJ, Daemoness, Vik, and all the others.


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## soul_lip_mike (Jan 6, 2023)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That, the Jeff Hanneman LTD sig reissue, and the Kirk Hammett SVs (LTD for sure, not sure if it'll be ESP, ESP USA, or both for the bougie one). That's pretty much it, and probably all you should expect.



I'm really hoping they'll do a japanese ESP kirk V but it sounds like only LTD so far.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 6, 2023)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I'm really hoping they'll do a japanese ESP kirk V but it sounds like only LTD so far.


Given it originated as an ESP USA model that may end up being the high end model


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## Agalloch (Jan 6, 2023)

narad said:


> It kind of reminds me when I first saw an NSX in person (etched into my memories, sometime around 1999). It was black, but the way it was black was totally different than on a $15k car. With the ESP ranges, it doesn't seem to span the whole range -- I see some just randomly not as nice finish on one model, and a different model can have a really stellar paint that makes me feel bad for spending so much on higher end ESPs. Basically I think it's at least something to watch out for if you see a catalog photo / maybe make sure to see the real thing from many angles or in video before buying.



I feel this. I have an ESP Ultratone that's just black, but it's a _really nice _black. Like, I didn't think black finishes could vary so much but it just looks _great. _I've had a similar experience with other ESP Original models. I don't know what they're doing differently with them, but the finish work is always top-notch.


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## drb (Jan 6, 2023)

Kyle Jordan said:


> When you say this, do you mean they do not look good/right to you or their design choices are not your cup of tea?
> 
> I ask because for a while now I thought I was crazy or more subconsciously biased than I thought previously. I’ve seen several black E-IIs in person over the years and when I’ve compared to my USA Soloist or other gloss black high end guitars, they looked off and not as nice. Like they don’t visually pop and grab the eye as much. Not really sure how to describe it. And I’m talking gloss black vs gloss black. Not metallic or otherwise.





Agalloch said:


> I feel this. I have an ESP Ultratone that's just black, but it's a _really nice _black. Like, I didn't think black finishes could vary so much but it just looks _great. _I've had a similar experience with other ESP Original models. I don't know what they're doing differently with them, but the finish work is always top-notch.


I'm so glad I'm not crazy. I picked up an ESP M-II and I'm almost mesmerised by how a flat, gloss black finish can look "well made". I thought it was just because it was my peak bucket list guitar but now maybe it's just that good!

I'm sad to hear E-II aren't as good, though. Gonna have to hunt some down in shops and check em out.


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## BillCartESP (Jan 6, 2023)

I have 2 EII 6 strings. The faded black horizon and it was great out of the box. After a set up plays smooth as glass across the board. Fit finish and all. I did see one that was awful though. But I’ve only seen 2. With my EII horizon 3 I had to send the first one back. Got the second one and it’s great player. Fret finish and all. The first reindeer blue had oddly uneven frets (that seemed like a whole new fret job was needed) and a lot of finish slop here and there mostly on the lower horn. Looked more like an TD. I felt being brand new that was unacceptable. I was a bit surprised but sent back to seller and I bought elsewhere and blamed the original seller for sending mE a new “used” guitar (MF…..). Although that vendor does have a rep for that it might have just been a bum as guitar. Seems like a lot of things like this are happing across the board on many brand names. Maybe they are rushing production and not allow finish and wood, etc to set. Either way that is Unacceptable. Really I didnt get such a great response from esp cs like I thought. It felt like I was bothering the person I was talking to. Ehh… Either way I like some of the models and have no problem sending It back. It is just a pita and bs to have to though. All brands have their respective issues but with esp/Ltd taking such a huge step in the market you’d think qc would be a bit better. I laugh when I se the ”inspected in the us‘ on those.. What‘d they do on ins? May say “oh here;s another jacked up one. Send it to the seller” I digress
Not bashing esp at all I own many and just bought a JR-7 today. Just saying that act needs to step up a bit. Oh, and my next one will more than likely be the EII eclipse 7.

Cheers


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## cardinal (Saturday at 5:01 PM)

I'll keep posting nice things about my E-IIs. I actually think they look better in person than in pics. And I have Original Series, USA, and a Navigator around the house and the E-IIs are killer IMHO.


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## BillCartESP (Saturday at 6:27 PM)

Very nice guitars cardinal. I agree with you. I love my EII’s as well. Although I’ve never owned an original esp. That natural black fade is the same finish on one of my horizons.


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## cardinal (Saturday at 8:43 PM)

BillCartESP said:


> Very nice guitars cardinal. I agree with you. I love my EII’s as well. Although I’ve never owned an original esp. That natural black fade is the same finish on one of my horizons.


I just wish they did the finish with the teardrop burst because that's the only correct burst shape for an LP.


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## DeathCubeK (Sunday at 9:34 AM)

cardinal said:


> I'll keep posting nice things about my E-IIs. I actually think they look better in person than in pics. And I have Original Series, USA, and a Navigator around the house and the E-IIs are killer IMHO.


These are the exact two ESPs that I want. I don't even care about the lack of SS frets, really. When am I even going to refret with a new guitar? 5 years? 10?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Sunday at 9:43 AM)

cardinal said:


> I just wish they did the finish with the teardrop burst because that's the only correct burst shape for an LP.


They do for some, but not others. It's weird.


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## BillCartESP (Sunday at 11:04 AM)

Some color pattens are wired with esp but e work for the most part. 
this is one I drool over and will have.… one day









ESP MYSTIQUE CTM


One of the world's leading manufacturers of high quality guitars and basses.




www.espguitars.com


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## jl-austin (Sunday at 4:11 PM)

One of the ESP dealers here in central TX had to take up Ibanez (which honestly is just a little better at shipping) recently, because they where not getting anything from ESP.


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## BillCartESP (Sunday at 6:03 PM)

ESP seems to be really behind on production of EIIs and ESP originals. The LTDs are behind also but there are more of those around. I have sone ltd’s and like mine but had to do a bit of work to get them that way with a bone nut to replace the earvana on one and the plastic on the other with a good setup by a luthier. For the life of me I couldn’t get the fret buzz out but he did. On my EIIs I was able to do the set up and they play great. I hope 2023 is the is the year more EII And originals come out so I can get a few models I‘m looking for. I did get the JR-7 and it’ll be here on Tuesday. The only sad thing is my mark v is being worked on by mesa atm.


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