# Brainstorming about Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Electric



## ElRay (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm looking to take my sole 6-string electric out of standard tuning for purely fingerstyle playing. A bit of background:
I've been an on-again-off-again player for the past two decades
My youngest is taking Classical Guitar lessons and with the time I've had to put into "practice", I've been able to stay about six to eight weeks ahead of her. 
I'm looking to put more time into "me time" playing.
I play exclusively fingerstyle -- I feel disconnected using a pick
I am (currently) one of those Dreaded 40-year-old Blues Wankers
I am currently ERG-less (I sold my 7-string as I was leaving Afghanistan to somebody just getting into theater)
So I'm looking for an alternate tuning that will give me a bit more range on the low-end, but not be so widely spaced that I lose the ability to play "bluesy" or more melody-focused stuff. Here's the brainstorming I've done so-far:

*Open G (DGDGBD):*
This is the most obvious. I get a bit of extra low-end. It works pretty well for alternating bass and a "Blues" scale falls very nicely onto the top four strings. I also get two sets of octave strings (a fourth apart).

The disadvantage is that I don't any extra range. I could drop the whole thing down two semi-tones, to give me a little more low-end, but then I lose even more off the treble end.

*'Celtic', aka Dsus4, aka DADGAD (DADGAD):*
This isn't bad either. I get a bit of extra low-end. I get a root-fifth-octave in the bass and a "Blues" scale falls pretty well onto the top four strings. I again get two sets of octave strings, but this time they're a fifth apart.

This pretty much has the same disadvantages of 'regular' Open G.

*Open C (CGCGCE):*
This is nice. It gives me extra range (more low-end w/o losing any off the top). Blues scale falls well on the upper strings, but:

Everything (... counting on my fingers ...) will be in "Mixolydian mode", but that won't really be bad, because I'll have root-fifth-octave in the bass.

*C-Pentatonic, aka Crafty Tuning, aka New Standard Tuning, aka NST (CGDAEG):*
This is a Cello (parallel fifths), plus a fifth (covering the range of a Violin), plus a minor 3rd. This gives me about as much range as is practical on a straight-fretted 25-1/2" 6-string. It's a symmetric tuning (nice for somebody re-re-re-restarting) and it's semi-familiar ground (I've used it in the past).

The main downside is that it's pretty wide intervals the whole way and not very conducive for "Blues". That said, I can borrow from King Crimson, League of Crafty Guitarists, Cello & Violin pieces and be pretty happy in my Neo-Classical-Prog world.

*Low C (CGDGAD):*
This is very tempting. I get four extra semi-tones on the low-end, while only losing two on the high, stacked fifths in the bass, two octave pairs, some nice "quirky" chord tones and the ability to nice separation between the bass and melody lines.

This is the least common of the bunch and I'm back in that "Mixolydian mode" for anything "Bluesy".


I've got a huge emotional draw to C-Pentatonic (familiar ground, parallel fifths make chord shapes very movable, wide intervals) and the only thing I "lose" is "The Blues". But from a purely analytical perspective, I feel I should go with "Low C". But the kicker, that makes this whole decision tougher, is that, with the exception of "Low C", I know a lot of pieces in each tuning by guitarists that I like. There's a bit of comfort in that any decision I make won't be "bad", but it doesn't make "picking a favorite" any easier. 

Ray

P.S. *All fifths (AbEbBbFCG)* gets an honorable mention, but on a non-fanned 25-1/2" guitar, that would be a bit too flubby for my tastes and require a bit more transposing than I'd like to be doing at this time.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 21, 2011)

> *Open G 'Celtic' (DADGAD):
> [\quote]
> 
> *Given the 3Ds, this is more Dsus4 than Gsus2.
> ...


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## celticelk (Dec 21, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> > *Open G 'Celtic' (DADGAD):
> > [\quote]
> >
> > *Given the 3Ds, this is more Dsus4 than Gsus2.
> ...


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## ElRay (Dec 21, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Low C and NST as you probaby know aren't really open tunings at all.


True. I'm not set on an Open Tuning in general, as I'm not looking at doing any slide playing in the near future. At the core, I'm looking for something with a bit more range that's suitable for solo-fingerpicking -- I'm doing a lot of Me, Myself and I playing while everybody else is asleep.


SirMyghin said:


> For blues playing, any open tuning will do though, Which one you choose is quite irrelevant to my mind. Open G will likely sound weaker than Open B, due to multiple 3rds and only a single root though. Might not be what you want.


Right. Some open tunings are a bit monotonous. Which "Open B" were you thinking of: BF#BF#BD# - 6th string down 5 semi-tones or D#BD#F#BD# - 6th down a semi-tone? I'm assuming the "Devin Townsend" BF#BF#BD#. That actually sounds pretty appealing.

I'm almost tempted to tune the bass strings in fifths and the treble strings in Major 3rds, but that will require more experimenting, re-arranging, etc. than I really want to do right now.

Ray


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## celticelk (Dec 21, 2011)

Take a look at Steve Tibbetts' tuning: CGDGBE. You keep the extra bass range of open/low C without losing any treble range; your familiar standard-tuning chord and scale shapes still work on the upper four strings; and you get two stacked fifths for low-string spread triads and suspended 2nds.


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## ElRay (Dec 21, 2011)

RE: *Open G 'Celtic' (DADGAD)*:


SirMyghin said:


> Given the 3Ds, this is more Dsus4 than Gsus2.





celticelk said:


> DADGAD is definitely a D modal tuning, not a G tuning.


Gotcha. Tweaked the labeling. 

Ray


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## ElRay (Dec 21, 2011)

celticelk said:


> Take a look at Steve Tibbett's tuning: CGDGBE. You keep the extra bass range of open/low C without losing any treble range; your familiar standard-tuning chord and scale shapes still work on the upper four strings; and you get two stacked fifths for low-string spread triads and suspended 2nds.


I started digging around and saw this:


celticelk said:


> ... Worth checking his stuff out if you haven't heard him before - it's like Hendrix took a road trip to Nepal.


I definitely have to check that out. 

Ray


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## celticelk (Dec 21, 2011)

ElRay said:


> I started digging around and saw this:I definitely have to check that out.
> 
> Ray



I recommend starting with _A Man About A Horse_ or _The Fall of Us All_ if you want some tasty electric playing; his more recent _Natural Causes_ is all-acoustic.


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## distressed_romeo (Dec 21, 2011)

If you're willing to invest time in it, DADGAD is ridiculously versatile.

If you're new to it, a good way of starting is practicing your scales using open strings. Check out this way of playing a D Major scale...

d-----------------0---
a-----------0---4----
G---------0---4------
D---0---4------------
A-----7--------------
D--------------------

If you start experimenting with fingerings like this it really transforms the way you think about melodies on the guitar.

Low C has similar advantages if you're keen on fifths, so it might be a nice compromise (Kaki King certainly gets a lot of mileage out of it).


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## TimSE (Dec 21, 2011)

I voted Open G. I play this sometimes and its definitely fun!


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## SirMyghin (Dec 21, 2011)

ElRay said:


> True. I'm not set on an Open Tuning in general, as I'm not looking at doing any slide playing in the near future. At the core, I'm looking for something with a bit more range that's suitable for solo-fingerpicking -- I'm doing a lot of Me, Myself and I playing while everybody else is asleep.Right. Some open tunings are a bit monotonous. Which "Open B" were you thinking of: BF#BF#BD# - 6th string down 5 semi-tones or D#BD#F#BD# - 6th down a semi-tone? I'm assuming the "Devin Townsend" BF#BF#BD#. That actually sounds pretty appealing.
> 
> I'm almost tempted to tune the bass strings in fifths and the treble strings in Major 3rds, but that will require more experimenting, re-arranging, etc. than I really want to do right now.
> 
> Ray



Sorry I meant to type open C, as you listed one, which had 3 C's in it. My bad.


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## ElRay (Dec 21, 2011)

distressed_romeo said:


> If you're willing to invest time in it, DADGAD is ridiculously versatile.


Adrian Legg is big on DADGAD, and I know there's a ton of books on it.


distressed_romeo said:


> Low C has similar advantages if you're keen on fifths, so it might be a nice compromise (Kaki King certainly gets a lot of mileage out of it).


That's a big part of the appeal of Low C. As I've dug around, I've found more on this. I may have to make some chord/scale charts and see where it goes.

Ray


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## SirMyghin (Dec 21, 2011)

^^ The more I look at that low C the more interested I am. D7sus4... Could be a lot of fun.


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## Explorer (Dec 21, 2011)

I learned Piedmont blues guitar in the '80s from John Cephas (and also learned harmonica from Phil Wiggins). Here they are.



I also knew Archie Edwards and John Jackson, if you all know who they are. 

I rarely strayed from standard tuning, and if we did, it was normally just to either Drop D, or (more rarely) Sebastopol (open D) or to open G.

If you're looking to get a handle on the full guitar approach (melody/chording simultaneously), I highly recommend getting a book/CD set which doesn't even have "blues" in the name, _Advanced Fingerpicking Guitar_ by John James. This set has been $60 since I first got it on cassette, and it was completely worth it... and still is, especially since it's now CDs.

After working your way through that, almost anything you pick up related to fingerstyle blues will be a piece of cake. Stefan Grossman has a ton of stuff available on different blues styles, Blind Blake, Rev. Gary Davis, Blind Willie McTell and others. 

Anyway, a thorough grounding in Standard Tuning will let you not only know how to maximize Standard, but also will let you appreciate Drop D for what it adds, and Vestapol and Spanish Tuning when you finally go there. That's my vote as a guy who was lucky enough to learn from some of the last generation of genuine Piedmont blues players, as opposed to all the extracultural revivalists like me.

----

Oh! One more thing!

Once you've mastered standard and are branching out, I also highly recommend _Bottleneck Blues Guitar_ by Bob Brozman. 

There is a great deal of joy in being able to actually play the blues, as opposed to just being bluesy.


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## Dan_Vacant (Dec 21, 2011)

celticelk said:


> Take a look at Steve Tibbetts' tuning: CGDGBE. You keep the extra bass range of open/low C without losing any treble range; your familiar standard-tuning chord and scale shapes still work on the upper four strings; and you get two stacked fifths for low-string spread triads and suspended 2nds.


 I chose open c but this is a fun tuneing too.


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## ElRay (Dec 22, 2011)

Thanks for the expected, detailed, two-part, reply 

I've never had a good relationship with "Standard Tuning" -- It's much like the kid you find really annoying, but put-up with because everybody else likes. Plus, the acoustic will stay in E-Standard/Drop-D until I no longer have to stay "1-2 lessons ahead".

My favorite tuning (the one that "just fits") is all Major 3rds. The problem, at this phase of life/playing, is that I'm ERG-less and it does not work well with a 6-string, especially in a "solo fingerpicking" situation. For the foreseeable future, I'm playing alone, at night, through my modeler, with the headphones on. When both girls "have a more practiced repertoire", I'll look at guitar/guitar and guitar/piano duets, but for now, it's just Me, Myself & I.

Likewise, an all Fourths (essentially all Fourths) is good for lead playing and playing in a band context, it's not the greatest for solo guitar work. That's the main push for an open or Fifths-in-the-bass tuning.

What I'm looking for is a tuning with more range, that is conducive to solo-fingerpicking. As a selection factor, something where the trebles are not too widely spaced, so as to make it difficult to stay "bluesy", is a plus, but not a requirement. Personally, my big push is to really re-develop my right-hand technique. Rhythm is king right now, and there's a lot of sins you can hide behind good rhythm.

----

I do aspire, in the long run, to be able to play "genuine" Blues.

The B.B. King-style, sit in front of a full-backing band, ripping-out the occasional riff is NOT my idea of Blues.

Realistically, at this phase of life, given the time I do have, regarding The Blues, as a guitar-based adaptation of a primarily vocal-style, I'm stuck in 40-year-old, small-b, wanker mode, for now. 

I'll likely be in that mode until my mid-50's.



Ray


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## ElRay (Dec 22, 2011)

Another idea: *Open C-minor (CGEbGCG):*

Same range as C-Pentatonic/NST, easy major/minor chords.

I think I may need to spend sometime to arrange a couple of pieces in the different tunings.

Ray


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## SirMyghin (Dec 22, 2011)

So you are talking more Delta style playing then, I wish you luck, it isn't really a style I play but it can be great to listen to the old master's, and real Blues guitarists. My fave is probably Son House, because his voice was absolutely awesome.


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## ElRay (Dec 22, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> So you are talking more Delta style playing then ...


More along those lines, yes. If I could play acoustic w/o waking the kids, I would likely stick to "Acoustic, Fingerstyle Blues".


SirMyghin said:


> My fave is probably Son House, because his voice was absolutely awesome.


Listening to the old Blues singers, Tom Waits, Nick Cave, etc. actually gives me some hope that I might be able to one day, with a lot of practice, sing and not injure old people and scare young children 

Ray


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## celticelk (Dec 22, 2011)

^^^^^^ Dude, Tom Waits totally scares young children. That's part of the appeal.


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## ElRay (Dec 23, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> ^^ The more I look at that low C the more interested I am. D7sus4... Could be a lot of fun.


I'm starting to think this might be the way to go for the next bit. Tons of acoustic examples, here's a few electric:





​

I'm loving how the bass is "there" -- Almost visceral.

Ray


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## Explorer (Dec 23, 2011)

Ray, if you want to avoid being like BB King, requiring a backing band, then you might want to consider why traditional acoustic blues guitar (as defined by all those guys who have been mentioned as defining the blues in this topic) used those tunings because they put the bass notes in line with the treble notes. 

In other words, tunings which allow using a finger as a barre are at the core of the blues styles, and tunings which don't are more for melodic "wankery." 

Sebastapol and Spanish both let one do some amazing stuff... as long as you stay in those related keys. The advantage of Standard is that it severs being tied to one key center and the related keys. 

I recommend you go to a bookstore which has a music section, and leaf through a few books on blues styles which you like. You'll *never* run across a symmetrical tuning like Full Thirds or Full Fourths, and the tunings which *were* used were vetted by people who were looking for the best way s to make a living with this stuff. 

My suggestion is to look at those who *did* create this style out of nothing, and see what they did. If that's the sound you want, and you know how it gets made, then why not use it?


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## ElRay (Dec 23, 2011)

I think there's a subtle point that's being missed: Blues is the icing, not the cake. The real meat & potatoes is a tuning that is good for electrified solo-fingerpicking. The "Blues" reference was a bit of journalistic packaging, that was intended to encapsulate what I was looking for, but didn't have a good way to describe. Given the discussion here, what I'm looking for is:*An alternate tuning that is more suitable for solo-electrified fingerpicking than E-Standard tuning by including a greater range, especially in the Bass, that will allow emphasis of a strong, right-hand, rhythmic component, without spreading out the treble string so much that dense, piano-like, dom7th, diminished, etc. chords and melodic playing including "blue notes" (actually 9th's and 13th's from the perspective of the root) become impractical.*​The "Blues" label was used, because I'm currently working through two fingerstyle blues books I have.


Explorer said:


> In other words, tunings which allow using a finger as a barre are at the core of the blues styles, and tunings which don't are more for melodic "wankery."


Yes.


Explorer said:


> You'll *never* run across a symmetrical tuning like Full Thirds or Full Fourths


Exactly. That's why they're not on the plate at this time.

I could be "content" with just running straight 5ths or Fripp's Crafty tuning, and just work on Cello/Violin pieces, but I'm looking for something that's a bit more dense on top. In fact, the simplest solution might be an Open m7th tuning so I could barre and throw in a finger or two to get dom7ths, M7ths, Hendrix chords, etc. That's why this is a "brainstorming" and not a "planning", "considering", "contemplation", "formal cogitation", etc. thread.

Right now, Open C is the mostly likely contender. Given the videos I've found in Low C, that's a very close 2nd. I've got to sit-down, map-out some scales and chords, arrange a couple of pieces and see how things fit.



Ray

P.S. Explorer, if we ever get together for drinks, we'll have to hire a transcriptionist, because we'll hit on 27 great ideas and things to consider, that we'll have to get back to, enroute to the main thing we're talking about.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 23, 2011)

Ray, one thing you may not have considerred here, but might be useful. What is your vocal range? Maybe try to home in on one that can compliment that well. For example, I can sing UNDER a guitar very easily. I can sing about G1 - A3 or so (yeah, my range sucks), but if you want to accompany yourself, picking a tuning that can get below your voice, permitting you aren't a low singing bastard like myself, might be a good choice.

This ofcourse is completely moot if you plan to only work instrumentally, but as Explorer mentioned, these open tunings often seek to facilitate accompaniment.


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## Explorer (Dec 24, 2011)

I have to note that DADGAD is the tuning of one of the coolest, most mystical rock songs ever: _Kashmir_. For the most part, the strings are open, with only two or three strings being fretted at any given time. 

You know, I've been thinking about this... and when I consider the various things I play fingerstyle, I realize that I play in a *huge* amount of different tunings. I can easily switch between Standard, Drop D, DADGAD and Spanish (Open G) without tension problems. 

So, why be tied to one particular tuning?

On six-string, most of the traditional tunings don't have as much tension variation as the massive down-tunings normally explored on this site. Unless you're talking about drop C, you should be fine.


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## ElRay (Dec 25, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I have to note that DADGAD is the tuning of one of the coolest, most mystical rock songs ever: _Kashmir_. For the most part, the strings are open, with only two or three strings being fretted at any given time.


 You guys are supposed to be making this decision easier, not tougher 


Explorer said:


> ... I realize that I play in a *huge* amount of different tunings ... without tension problems. ... most of the traditional tunings don't have as much tension variation as the massive down-tunings normally explored on this site ...


The 6-string I have currently has 13's on it (that's the way the previous owner had it strung) -- They'll need replacing soon and I usually buy singles and so i have a progressively (monotonically, to be mathematically precise) increasing tension from the highest to the lowest strings. I can look at several tunings and pick the mid-point for the "ideal" tension.


Explorer said:


> ... So, why be tied to one particular tuning? ...


Even though I currently have more time to play than I have had in the past 20 years (except while deployed in Afghanistan), and I without a doubt have the most focus I've ever had, sticking with E-Standard for my daughter's Classical lessons and one other tuning for my "me" time playing, is about as much as I reasonably should work with.

I've collected three pieces (so far) that I want to arrange. I'll have to "tab" them out to see what tuning(s) have the better fingerring. Given that one of the pieces goes down to C2, and that those YouTube Vids just seem to "click", I may go with Low C. I've got to see how the pieces lay-out and the string tensions line-up.

*{Thanks all, Merry Xmas}*

Ray


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## ElRay (Dec 25, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Ray, one thing you may not have considerred here, but might be useful. What is your vocal range?


Pro'lly D2-F2?  I self-sing (typically Chromatic Solfège, but I've got the lyrics that my daughters' Instructors use: "Hey there mouse ...", "Al-li-ga-tor Num-ber 1 ...", etc. stuck in my head), but that's about it. That said, I do do a non-embarrassing "New York, New York" so I could say an older Frank Sinatra would be a good example. I'm happy to play and let the girls sing.

Ray


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## ElRay (Jan 2, 2012)

Spent a little time scratching-out some tabs. "Low C" is looking good for this phase:
I've got four strings a fifth apart: CGD-A- (covering the range of a Cello)
Two sets of octave strings (that are also a fifth apart): -G-G-- and --D--D
And some nice "density" on the top: ---GAD
I'm going to have to tab-out some more pieces in "Open C" (or similar open tunings) before I decide.

Ray


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