# The LGBT thread



## tacotiklah

So I've noticed that some gay/bi/trans stuff has been popping up as of late, and thought this would be a great thread to talk about all things LGBTQ related as well as a haven for those of us that identify as LGBTQ along with our straight allies to post about the things going on in their life, and the how their gender identity/sexual orientation affects their life. Post relationship stuff, news, and pretty much all things LGBTQ related. The goal here is to have a place to talk about some of these issues in a constructive and non-judgmental way.


Note: Mods will be watching this thread closely, so please, no flaming, spam, or anything else that violates SSOs rules. Regardless of beliefs, please be respectful of other people here, regardless of what they identify as. Thanks, and have at it guys/gals!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Have nothing to add, just thought this thread was a good idea. 

Although I am part of the LGBT community, so I'll keep an eye out on this thread.


----------



## tacotiklah

Welcome aboard! 

I thought this thread would be a good idea, but felt it was prudent to talk with a mod about it first so that we can figure out how to do this without becoming a target for trolls/flamefests/etc. 

I'll start off with what LGBT stands for, for those that have no clue. (I've had a couple people ask me in chat)

L = Lesbian
G = Gay
B = Bisexual
T = Transgendered

Q is also added a lot of the time which stands for both Queer and Questioning. I've seen the acronym expanded all the way to QUILTBAGPIPE, but frankly I find it getting a bit ludicrous to had so many things to it. It's not that I don't accept the people that these additions mention, but LGBTQ is plenty fine to cover all of us tbvh. 


Just though I'd add this as a sort of PSA.


----------



## DLG

someone needs to make a flaming/flamefest joke just to get it out of the way.

All joking aside, I'm about as liberal as liberal can be and fully support the LGBT community and its fight for equal rights on all fronts and it would be interesting to read your stories and thoughts as an outsider


----------



## JamesM

I'm straight, but have a huge man crush on Anderson Cooper.


----------



## tacotiklah

DLG, this thread is for our straight allies too! 
Don't be afraid to post in here because we wanna hear about things on your end as well...



And yes, Anderson Cooper is one sexy beast. I've also heard rumors that he's gay, so I kinda wanna look into that.


----------



## Jakke

*I am a big friend of your people*.




Nah, seriously. I am straight, and frankly, I don't really care which way someone swings. If someone is an ass, I am going to dislike them anyway, if I'd also factor in sexual orientation my list of enemies would be a lot longer.

Live long and prosper I say


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> I've also heard rumors that he's gay, so I kinda wanna look into that.



He's a pretty private guy and won't reveal it, sadly. 

But I did read rumors that he's dating an owner of a gay bar or something.


----------



## tacotiklah

Given the current political climate, can't say I blame him. Especially with the job that he has...


----------



## MFB

This is obviously nothing personal, and ghst himself said he's not huge on the WHOLE acronym, but I've always found the Questioning part to be a bit ...weird? Like, questioning WHAT? If it's your sexuality towards anything and whether or not exists, then it's a resounding yes and anyone who denies it is in for a life of torture during their day to day routine; I feel in this case monks are exempt since they live off by themselves with no real temptations. If it's what you're attracted to, whether it be male or female, wouldn't that just make you bisexual and have no need for the Q?

Just something I always think of when people mention the longer version of LGBT


----------



## JamesM

I didn't think it was a secret? Anderson Cooper is gay.


----------



## tacotiklah

MFB said:


> This is obviously nothing personal, and ghst *her*self said *she's* not huge on the WHOLE acronym, but I've always found the Questioning part to be a bit ...weird? Like, questioning WHAT? If it's your sexuality towards anything and whether or not exists, then it's a resounding yes and anyone who denies it is in for a life of torture during their day to day routine; I feel in this case monks are exempt since they live off by themselves with no real temptations. If it's what you're attracted to, whether it be male or female, wouldn't that just make you bisexual and have no need for the Q?
> 
> Just something I always think of when people mention the longer version of LGBT



Fixed for improved accuracy. 
(I know I'm being a bitch about this and I do apologize, but trust me when I say the best way to greet/speak of a transperson is to use pronouns and greetings befitting of their CURRENT gender. My friends here are right though, I gotta suck it up and be the person to help foster change regarding this)

Questioning is there for people that are still trying to work out what they are. The realization that you may not be straight is a massive mind fuck, and therefore the community wants to be there for these individuals too. I've seen people that were 100% sure they were straight (myself being one of them) later realize that they were just bullshitting themselves. I've also seen gay people that were 100% sure that they were gay, later realize they like women too.

The questioning is there to show those that are going through the early parts of their self discovery that we are there for them, and will do whatever we can to support them as they figure themselves out.


----------



## MFB

Ya know, I stopped myself from saying Adam yet still typed him/he 

I guess I can see why they put it in there, but I feel like I'll always have this "black/white" or in this case "straight/not straight (regardless of it being gay/bi/trans)" mindset and think the Q is kind of unnecessary. I don't consider it a bad thing or am gonna go out and protest it being LGBTQ... just a personal view is all


----------



## tacotiklah

I know dude, and that's why I gotta get the stick outta my ass about it too. I know you guys are trying for the most part.  (if looking for a name, Jessica works.  )

The Q mainly stands for Queer though. Basically those that identify as being outside the gender binary; but that still makes no sense to me either since they are also included in the trans community. Ah well...


----------



## SenorDingDong

I'm not part of the community, but I am definitely a big supporter of the LGBT community and of equal rights and the freedom to love in general, so I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread


----------



## tacotiklah

^This thread is for you guys too. 
We welcome any and all supporters.


----------



## Xaios

Kind of an odd tale. An english chap that I've been friends with for nearly 10 years certainly has an interesting history in this regard. When I first met him, he was gay. He had a lot of struggles through his teen years (also because he's clinically depressed and probably a little bipolar). He told me but some dreams he had through the years, and how his life improved when he was finally able to interpret them, ultimately leading to the personal understanding that he was gay.

Me and this friend have taught each other a lot over the years, and I wouldn't be the person I am if it hadn't been for him. We debated a million issues of religion and morality, him coming from the perspective of a gay atheist and me coming from the perspective of a straight christian. We learned a lot together.

When he first found out I was christian, he told me straight up that I was unlike any christian that he had ever met, aside from his mother, in that I approached things with a generally "live and let live" mindset. I explained that, despite what a lot of christians actually practice, we're called to hate the sin and love the sinner, because we're all sinners. I'm no less sinful in the eyes of God than he is, so it's unfair to him to be judged by others for his sin while I walk away scott free in spite of mine.

On the flipside, he helped me become more accepting of people in general as well. No matter my intentions, I didn't really know any people who were gay before him. I had believed myself to be a tolerant person, but he showed me how to be truly accepting of others.

I can genuinely say that his friendship made me a better person.

(As an aside, it does bear mentioning that, for reasons that I'm not privy to, he's no longer gay. I honestly don't have a clue why that is.)


----------



## Jakke

ghstofperdition said:


> We welcome any and all supporters. :yesway



Yes... Yes... More... We need more into the conspiracy to support the gay agenda (satanism really)... MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!




Xaios said:


> (As an aside, it does bear mentioning that, for reasons that I'm not privy to, he's no longer gay. I honestly don't have a clue why that is.)



Findings suggests that sexuality is not set in stone, it can be fluid and change over a life.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

THIS THREAD IS DARK SIDED!!!!

DON'T LISTEN TO JESSICA..SHE'S NOT A CHRISTTTIAAAANNNNAAA!!!!







No but seriously..it's a good thread idea. even though I'm not really part of "the community" I still endorse this thread


----------



## MikeH

I'm straight, but have absolutely nothing against the LGBTQ society. Hell, I even have giant crushes on Bradley Cooper, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, and Ryan Gosling. No shame.


----------



## XEN

Ally here.

I was an active supporter of Servicemembers United, one of the principal forces behind the repeal of DADT. The guys who ran the organization were students at the Defense Language Institute when my wife and I were there. Their patriotism and commitment to their oaths as Soldiers was unquestionable, and I was proud to serve with them the short time I did.

I was appalled to begin with when I enlisted and had to sign multiple documents swearing that I was not gay and that I did not engage in or consider partaking in oral or anal sex. Hey, even I had to lie about 2/3 of that!

I now work at the Pentagon, servicing, among others, the agency responsible for the Army piece of the repeal. I can honestly say that it has been a total non-issue. But I'll never forget the amount of pure hell my battle buddies had to endure to get to this point. They've finally been able to move on to less stressful ventures, but when I picture men of character and integrity I think of them.


----------



## kevdes93

cool thread

im not gay, but some of the coolest/funniest dudes i know are wicked gay! theyre honestly a lot more fun to hang out with than straight dudes sometimes


----------



## Jakke

kevdes93 said:


> I'm not gay, but some of the coolest/funniest dudes i know are wicked gay! *They're honestly a lot more fun to hang out with than straight dudes sometimes*



THAT'S SO RACIST!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jakke said:


> THAT'S SO RACIST!



Affirmative action.


----------



## kevdes93

Jakke said:


> THAT'S SO RACIST!



AHHHH IM SORRY!!!


----------



## tacotiklah

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Affirmative action.




Normally I'd refuse handouts like that, but in this job climate.....


----------



## Jakke

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Affirmative action.



Do they use such filthy language were you come from? It's dark-sided I tell you, you need to repent to our lord Jesus Christ, who hates many people, but none more than homosexuals.



kevdes93 said:


> AHHHH IM SORRY!!!



And how is that going to help me now that I am all offended?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Jakke said:


> Do they use such filthy language were you come from? It's dark-sided I tell you, you need to repent to our lord Jesus Christ, who hates many people, but none more than homosexuals.
> 
> 
> 
> And how is that going to help me now that I am all offended?



That's right..time for some good old gospel to ward away all the EVIL in here!



JESUS IS A BISCUIT..LET HIM SOP YOU UP!


----------



## kevdes93

Jakke said:


> Do they use such filthy language were you come from? It's dark-sided I tell you, you need to repent to our lord Jesus Christ, who hates many people, but none more than homosexuals.
> 
> 
> 
> And how is that going to help me now that I am all offended?



Wait, youre not really offended are you?  twas for jokes


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

^Ain't got nothin' on these guy's faith.


----------



## Jakke

kevdes93 said:


> Wait, youre not really offended are you?  twas for jokes



Oh gawd no, how is liking a couple of gay people even racism to start with?

I seemed to have managed to convert Drakk though, so that's something I guess...


----------



## Jakke

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> That's right..time for some good old gospel to ward away all the EVIL in here!
> 
> 
> 
> JESUS IS A BISCUIT..LET HIM SOP YOU UP!







He is also, FYI, a grilled cheese... And a door..


----------



## kevdes93

Jakke said:


> Oh gawd no, how is liking a couple of gay people even racism to start with?
> 
> I seemed to have managed to convert Drakk though, so that's something I guess...



Just makin sure


----------



## Jakke

kevdes93 said:


> Just makin sure



Just as well


----------



## Explorer

MFB said:


> I feel in this case monks are exempt since they live off by themselves with no real temptations.



Having known a few monks and brothers who eventually came out, and others who are straight but also celibate, I'm going to point out that they are not free of temptations.

----

I have friends who are appalled when they see the gay pride parades with all the stereotypes they were fighting against. It's clear that not everyone falls into those stereotypes, and to constantly use them is a weird thing.

I've also known girls who have told me they were into "black guys," but upon further questioning, it turned out that they specifically meant "black guys who looked like gangstas," which is a weird fetishization of blacks, and rejection of those who don't fit those stereotypes as not really being black. 

Anyway, I'm just thinking about this because of a lot of the Christian stereotypes which have been tossed around in this topic. I'm not religious, just as I'm not gay, but I'd object to someone tossing out gay stereotypes in the same way the Christian stereotypes have been. 

Just some thoughts!


----------



## tacotiklah

I agree with Explorer. The religion itself isn't to blame, it's the people that abuse the hell out of it to oppress others. 

And no human is above temptation. That is something that EVERY human faces. Where we differentiate, is how we face said temptation.


----------



## Explorer

I believe Oscar Wilde said it best in _The Critic as Artist_: "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it." *laugh*


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

urklvt said:


> Ally here.
> 
> I was an active supporter of Servicemembers United, one of the principal forces behind the repeal of DADT. The guys who ran the organization were students at the Defense Language Institute when my wife and I were there. Their patriotism and commitment to their oaths as Soldiers was unquestionable, and I was proud to serve with them the short time I did.


 
A good buddy of mine at DLI was kicked out under DADT. He was later interviewed on the Daily Show, where they had him interpret some Arabic documents while the interviewer did "gay things" to see if his homosexuality would distract him from his ability to do his job .


----------



## THEE HAMMER

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> THIS THREAD IS DARK SIDED!!!!
> 
> DON'T LISTEN TO JESSICA..SHE'S NOT A CHRISTTTIAAAANNNNAAA!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No but seriously..it's a good thread idea. even though I'm not really part of "the community" I still endorse this thread



Take me now Drakkar <3

to a drag show.


----------



## tacotiklah

Drak knows me too well. 

Went drinking and met a cute guy today. Learned more about him, and wasn't too happy with his love for MDMA, but he's a nice enough guy. Was upfront with him about myself and he still seemed interested. Hmm. Not sure if attracted, or just really drunk...


----------



## Loomer

I drink Latte CONSTANTLY at work.. I've read somewhere that makes you at least 10% gay


----------



## Spaceman_Spiff

I am a huge proponent of complete and total equality when it comes to all people, and LGBTQ people are no exception.

I am one of the founding members of the north akron chapter of GSA (gay straight alliance), which is a sort of roundtable discussion with both LGBTQ people and straight people. 

I was always brought up to question the norm and accept all kinds of people no matter how different they seemed, and have made more than a few friends who are gay and lesbian. Sadly a friend of mine named Derek killed himself when I was in the 11th grade because he was unable to deal with all of the hate he was at the receiving end of. (I went to an inner city high school where most people were very homophobic.) After that happened me and some friends started the GSA in memory of Derek, as well as to foster more tolerance among the community.

I sincerely wish that with raised awareness and tolerance that not only acceptance, but friendship and love can be spread around the world towards people from all walks of life.

/serious talk


----------



## Jakke

ghstofperdition said:


> Normally I'd refuse handouts like that, but in this job climate.....



Dem queerosexuals, coming here, taking our jobs...


----------



## caskettheclown

I support everyone in the LGBT community. I've gotten into several fights because I stood up for someone getting bullied. I tried to resolve the issue as calmly as I can but as soon as they throw the first attack, I have no issue at all taking them to the ground as fast as possible.
People don't have to agree with the LGBT community but I won't stand for someone getting bullied or picked on.

I'm not condoning violence in any way unless its for self defense.

I have many friends in the LGBT community and love them just the same.


----------



## Church2224

As a supporter of being who you are, I approve this thread.


----------



## MikeH

Jakke said:


> Dem queerosexuals, coming here, taking our jobs...


----------



## Scar Symmetry

I have nothing to contribute, just wanted to say that I have recently befriended a small Irish lesbian called Nina who is one of the most fun people I have ever met! 

It's a shame I'm homophobic


----------



## tacotiklah

Careful Peter or you goan git raped


----------



## tacotiklah

Just saw this on my facebook news feed:
Santorum Says Pink Bowling Balls Are Off-Limits | News | The Advocate


And people wonder why I hate that man....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> Just saw this on my facebook news feed:
> Santorum Says Pink Bowling Balls Are Off-Limits | News | The Advocate
> 
> 
> And people wonder why I hate that man....



So, I guess picking up a pink bowling ball makes you queer... 











Now I know what happened to me.


----------



## tacotiklah

I've brushed up against a pink bowling ball by accident once. Must be why I like both dudes AND girls.


----------



## Jakke

ghstofperdition said:


> I've brushed up against a pink bowling ball by accident once. Must be why I like both dudes AND girls.



Nah, you're just greedy


----------



## Jakke

^That is actually one of the most stupid statements I have ever heard
And as I am a sharing person, of course I will share it.


----------



## tacotiklah

Jakke said:


> Nah, you're just greedy



I've gotten flak for that because of my open relationship. As if I'm the one that suggested the relationship should be open. 

No, truth is closer to the fact that I'm probably TOO open-minded.


----------



## Divinehippie

ally here. not gay or anything myself but feel really strongly about people being able to do/love whatever/whoever makes them happy. i mean at the end of the day arn't we all just looking for a little happiness?


----------



## DLG

Divinehippie said:


> ally here. not gay or anything myself but feel really strongly about people being able to do/love whatever/whoever makes them happy. i mean at the end of the day arn't we all just looking for a little happiness?




post/username combo ftw


----------



## Varcolac

My sexual morality:

*A)* Provided everyone involved is of sound mind, consenting, and not a minor, feel free to stick your whatever in whoever's whereever, and to have whoever's whatever stuck in your whatever.

*B)* If two whoevers wish to keep sticking their whatevers in each others whereevers 'til death do them part, they should be afforded the same kinship/inheritance/power of attorney rights as any other pair of whoevers.

*C)* If two whoevers wish to stick their whatevers into third-party wheveevers or or have third-party whatevers stuck into their whereevers while remaining in a committed arrangement of "we stick our whatevers into each others' whereevers," they should discuss it fully and come to a mutual understanding on the self-imposed rules concerning extracurricular whatever-sticking.

*D)* Regardless of the contents of their underwear, a person may be whatever gender they want to be, including 'none of the above.'

*E)* Except where it violates section 1 of *A*, the law has no place in the bedroom. Or the living room. Or the shower. Or the kitchen table. Just remember to shut the curtains, or you may be exposing yourself to non-consenting members of society, thus violating said section.


------------------


I seem to remember the acronym QUILTBAG. Queer or Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender and Transsexual, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay. It's a really silly word though. Then again, my old university's society used to be called GBLT, with the logo as a Giant Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sandwich. Anyhow, I support equality and freedom. Especially for lesbians. Er... I mean... uh... ...shit.


----------



## tacotiklah

^+rep! 
Yes, we must also protect the rights of a delicious Giant Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sammich too. The government cannot legislate the tastiness or the yumminess of the GBLT, regardless of the kind of bread it's on. Viva La Resistance!!!!


Seriously though, I'm glad to see that there are a lot of allies here. It takes an ironclad personality to support people like myself, even when it has no real immediate bearing/benefit to you guys. You rock!


----------



## ry_z

I found this a while back. It's useful for explaining things to people.


----------



## tacotiklah

+rep to Ry as well for that wonderful diagram that correctly explains it all. EVERYTHING about gender, orientation, and even sex is fluid....


----------



## groph

Varcolac said:


> My sexual morality:
> 
> *A)* Provided everyone involved is of sound mind, consenting, and not a minor, feel free to stick your whatever in whoever's whereever, and to have whoever's whatever stuck in your whatever.
> 
> *B)* If two whoevers wish to keep sticking their whatevers in each others whereevers 'til death do them part, they should be afforded the same kinship/inheritance/power of attorney rights as any other pair of whoevers.
> 
> *C)* If two whoevers wish to stick their whatevers into third-party wheveevers or or have third-party whatevers stuck into their whereevers while remaining in a committed arrangement of "we stick our whatevers into each others' whereevers," they should discuss it fully and come to a mutual understanding on the self-imposed rules concerning extracurricular whatever-sticking.
> 
> *D)* Regardless of the contents of their underwear, a person may be whatever gender they want to be, including 'none of the above.'
> 
> *E)* Except where it violates section 1 of *A*, the law has no place in the bedroom. Or the living room. Or the shower. Or the kitchen table. Just remember to shut the curtains, or you may be exposing yourself to non-consenting members of society, thus violating said section.
> 
> 
> ------------------
> 
> 
> I seem to remember the acronym QUILTBAG. Queer or Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender and Transsexual, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay. It's a really silly word though. Then again, my old university's society used to be called GBLT, with the logo as a Giant Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sandwich. Anyhow, I support equality and freedom. Especially for lesbians. Er... I mean... uh... ...shit.



I am SO turned on right now.


----------



## tacotiklah

Welcome! 
I applaud you for being out and open.


----------



## Waelstrum

ry_z said:


> I found this a while back. It's useful for explaining things to people.



The other side can be fluid as well:


----------



## Varcolac

groph said:


> I am SO turned on right now.



...whatever.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Saw this on Facebook, so I'll just put it here since its the only thread I know it fits.


----------



## tacotiklah

^ I saw that on facebook too and about died laughing at it. Such a good burn...


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

I guess I'd say I'm a friend of the LGBT community?

The way I see it is if I don't have any business (or interest ) in what a consenting adult man-woman couple do behind closed doors, then I don't see why it's any of my business when it's two men or two women either.

My bassist, (also one of my closest friends) is bisexual and he's currently seeing a guy, so yeah. A person's a person, if you're a good person I like you, if you're not then fuck off.


----------



## tacotiklah

Exactly. We need a country full of people that think like you do man. It would make life way easier for all of us that aren't exactly straight.


----------



## avenger

Who gives a fuck is what I say.


----------



## matt397

Fast forward to 7:30 an watch till the end.




Oh an by the way, Im a breeder but Im a fan of the community. Im also a huge fan of the lesbian community 

:wavy:


----------



## Necris

German courts rule that an eleven year old.German transgender girl can legally be institutionalized.


----------



## tacotiklah

Ugh.....

Well there you are guys, we're all crazy it seems. I love how they talk about how the child doesn't understand the ramifications as if it's some sort of choice. How's this for ramifications:
For many transsexuals, it comes down to a choice of either getting the surgery done, or become another suicide statistic. There's your ramification right there.
Despite whatever hell life throws at people like this girl, being a girl is so much better than being dead.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Hopefully I can  this. 

Just thought these were clever.


----------



## flint757

That comedian was hilarious and addresses a very true point. The only reason there is an issue today at all is because of the idea of machoism. I remember in high school if you weren't LGBT you didn't join the club even though they would welcome you with open arms. Everyone is so worried about what others think they don't want to be perceive less manly. I put it this way because it seems to be most common with men. I think women's slow domination of the world (it will happen eventually) might change things for all people since behaviors of homophobia are not really present as much among women and women dominating might tone things down on the dude side. 

It is slowly happening already being hairless all over has become popular, male vocalist don't have manly voices in pop music these days, and tight pants were on the rise. Machismo will be gone soon enough.


----------



## AnarchyDivine88

I'm not gay, but than again I did kinda like Lady Gaga's first 2 albums, so some people might say that's debatable  ..... 

Keep being yourselves! 



matt397 said:


> Fast forward to 7:30 an watch till the end.




 That's awesome. That's pretty much what I tell people when they ask "which ear is the gay ear?"



Varcolac said:


> *A)* Provided everyone involved is of sound mind, consenting, and not a minor, feel free to stick your whatever in whoever's whereever, and to have whoever's whatever stuck in your whatever.



I like to put my whatever in my own whereever.....as in my Monster cable in my Ibanez...

AMIDOINITRITE?


----------



## AnarchyDivine88

BTW have any of you ever heard of S.K. Thoth? He's a Bisexual, Biracial musician/performer who is extremely inspiration, not just as an artist, but also because of his whole philosophical outlook on life.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Old school homosexual here.


----------



## Jakke

Sang-Drax said:


> Old school homosexual here.



Just as a point of curiosity, is there are new school one?


----------



## Varcolac

AnarchyDivine88 said:


> I like to put my whatever in my own whereever.....as in my Monster cable in my Ibanez...
> 
> AMIDOINITRITE?



No. While sexual preference is neither inherently good nor inherently bad, Monster Cable are an objectively awful company with horrendously bullying business practices and a legal department that's so litigious, it shits lawsuits.

Your doin' it wrong.


----------



## tacotiklah

Jakke said:


> Just as a point of curiosity, is there are new school one?




I wasn't aware that there was either. Apparently Sang is O.G. (original gay)  


And Steve Hughes is the man! We need more people like him in the world. 
And we need some Eddie Izzard in here! My phone sucks, so free rep to the first person that puts up some non-NSFW Izzard in here... 

(for those that don't know who he is, Eddie is a hilarious crossdressing comedian)


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Amidoingitright? 



EDIT: Besides the "fuck" around 1:18, its pretty tame. 

EDIT: Another one, but has a lot more swearing. Have to post it, though, since I love this one. 



Same as above.


----------



## tacotiklah

^yep. +rep for you good sir!

CAKE OR DEATH!!!!


----------



## Nimgoble

Hi. Pansexual here.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Jakke said:


> Just as a point of curiosity, is there are new school one?





ghstofperdition said:


> I wasn't aware that there was either. Apparently Sang is O.G. (original gay)



I'm a plain, old-fashioned, dull gay, meaning not trans, pan, bi, QUILTBAGPIPE, mathsexual, progressive tri, etc. I mean, just look at ghstofperdition here... she's a bisexual trans with manly mannerisms. I'm so boring in comparison!


----------



## tacotiklah

There is nothing wrong or dull with being gay. We both live "Alternative" lifestyles. 
And yeah, my gender expression is tomboyish. Why it is, I will never know. 

And hi Nimgobel! I'm pansexual myself, although I usually say bi since people have no clue wtf pansexual is.

Plus the name seems like a misnomer. You won't find me fucking kitchen cookware anytime soon. 
But it's a great feeling when you can love a person and not be put off by whatever they have in their pants. I think of it as the most "idealistic" form of sexual orientation. 

(But this should in no way imply that there's anything wrong with any other orientation. Just my attempt at looking at it from a different perspective. )


----------



## Sang-Drax

ghstofperdition said:


> Plus the name seems like a misnomer. You won't find me fucking kitchen cookware anytime soon.



A-ha! So you're not _that_ alternative, are you?


----------



## tacotiklah

Nope. Im more conservative-minded I guess. And no, I couldn't write the previous sentence with a straight-face.


----------



## AnarchyDivine88

Varcolac said:


> No. While sexual preference is neither inherently good nor inherently bad, Monster Cable are an objectively awful company with horrendously bullying business practices and a legal department that's so litigious, it shits lawsuits.
> 
> Your doin' it wrong.



 Oooh I get it, so there's nothing wrong with whereever I put my whatever, it's just that I have a bad whatever..... 

I actually recently switched to a local guy that hand makes custom cables with premium parts, but I didn't feel like explaining that in the post, although I suppose I could have just said "instrument cable".


----------



## Guitarman700

Something that's been eating at me lately is the homophobic, hyper masculine attitude I see in a lot of the hardcore and metal community. Especially when I go to shows. I know Greg Puciato recently wrote a blog post about this topic, and I have to say I think he's right. A lot of metal fans adopt a try-too-hard, look how heterosexually skilled I am attitude. 
I don't get it.


----------



## flint757

Guitarman700 said:


> Something that's been eating at me lately is the homophobic, hyper masculine attitude I see in a lot of the hardcore and metal community. Especially when I go to shows. I know Greg Puciato recently wrote a blog post about this topic, and I have to say I think he's right. A lot of metal fans adopt a try-too-hard, look how heterosexually skilled I am attitude.
> I don't get it.



That was why Steve Hughes was so funny...


----------



## AngstRiddenDreams

I'm by all means straight, but i'm glad to see a thread like this so the LGBT community can get some support.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

Im all for bltg rights and stuff but im still kinda squeemish tbh 

I was at a part a few weeks ago and someone ive known for a very long time kept hitting on me even though the fucker knows im straight leading to the most awkward shit ever


----------



## flint757

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Im all for bltg rights and stuff but im still kinda squeemish tbh
> 
> I was at a part a few weeks ago and someone ive known for a very long time kept hitting on me even though the fucker knows im straight leading to the most awkward shit ever



Yeah I know what you mean. I had a friend who was bi and he hit on me all the time (before he told me he was bi) and it was awkward. Not even because it was a dude because even a girl I don't like hitting on me just makes me uncomfortable. Needless to say I don't hang out with him as much anymore.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

Yeah its actually just like a fat girl hitting on you, but worse because you've been their buddy pal for a while. -_-


----------



## Jakke

And now I get google ads for gay dating


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> CAKE OR DEATH!!!!



Uhh, death ple-
NO NO NO! CAKE! CAKE! 


My new favorite comedian.


----------



## tacotiklah

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Im all for bltg rights and stuff but im still kinda squeemish tbh
> 
> I was at a part a few weeks ago and someone ive known for a very long time kept hitting on me even though the fucker knows im straight leading to the most awkward shit ever



I can see where that wohld be awkward and agree that I feel it's kinda dumb and pointless for gays/bis to hit on straights. It ain't gonna happen, so what's the point? It just makes everyone feel weird. 

Just look on the bright side Mehtab. You're sexy enough that even guys take notice.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

+1 to above. 

And honestly, my straight friend flirts with ME more then I have anyone. He's only joking, but he's making me wonder...


----------



## Stealthdjentstic




----------



## tacotiklah

I'm starting to suspect my bf is gay and not bi. Like he's only turned on whenever Im being laxy and in "guy mode" and not when I try to look pretty for him. I know I pass well, so I have no clue why he doesn't get turned on by a hot girl laying in bed next to him. 

Edit: No, Im not mad at him for this at all, just a little puzzled by him. Pity that the internet doesn't convey emotion so well. That or people just have shitty reading comprehension.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> he's only turned on whenever Im being laxy and in "guy mode"



...Tell me where you find these guys.


----------



## Waelstrum

I've been a fan of Eddie Izzard for a while, but there are a few things I don't quite get. He dresses as a lady (well he did in the 90's) and says that he's a transvestite, which he calls an alternative sexuality. But if he identifies as male and is attracted to women, is it a separate sexuality to heterosexuality, or is it just a straight man with different clothes?

Also, he doesn't seem to where lady clothes much any more, (see 4:52 below) so is he even a transvestite any more?


(I hope I worded that in a PC way, any offence caused is purely accidental.)


----------



## tacotiklah

No clue. Sweet guy, but he is an enigma whose answer eternally escapes me. But to answer your question more specifically, I met him at school. Cute hispanic bass player. 

@ Waelstrum
Gender Identity and gender expression is a VASTLY different thing from sexual orientation. My understanding is that Eddie identifies as male, but choses to express himself as female via wearing feminine clothing. As Drak has proven thus far, there are people that see crossdressing as a hobby. The definition of transvestite is one who likes to wear the clothing/portray the appearance of the opposite sex. They still identify as male, and have little to no symptoms of gender identity disorder.

Sexual orientation is far different than that. It's about what sex you are attracted to. He prefers females and identifies as male, so he is heterosexual. I see mtf transsexuals that are attracted to men as heterosexual as well, but more hardline members of the LGBT community will vehemently disagree with this. While different, gender identity and sexual orientation are interwoven. In the case of Eddie Izzard, had he been attracted to men only, I would consider him gay in that case since he identifies as male.

At the end of the day, what a person identifies as takes precedence over everything else. Whether one might disagree or not, it is foolish to think you know a person's gender identity and orientation better than they do. (I will concede this point to Trenchlord regarding my recent statements about Rick Santorum)


----------



## Necris

www.addictinginfo.org/2012/04/16/anti-gay-tea-party-speaker-screams-at-lgbt-protesters-we-will-not-be-silenced-by-faggots/

A few questions the article contains are clearly leading questions meant to incite a level outrage that really should already exist.
For Example:
"The question I want police to answer is why wasn&#8217;t the Tea Party hate rally broken up?"
Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly, nothing illegal was going on.

"... how come excessive force was used?"
Claims of excessive force being used are still being investigated and unless it's confirmed that question isn't really valid.

"Are police officers only capable of arresting protesters who are not right-wing zombies?"
Yay, bias and appeals to ridicule. Not that I was expecting an unbiased article from Addicting Info.


----------



## flint757

Necris said:


> Anti-Gay Tea Party Speaker Screams at LGBT Protesters "We Will Not Be Silenced By Faggots!"
> 
> A few questions the article contains are clearly leading questions meant to incite a level outrage that really should already exist.
> 
> 
> "The question I want police to answer is why wasn&#8217;t the Tea Party hate rally broken up?"
> Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly, nothing illegal was going on.
> 
> "How come police only targeted the LGBT supporters? And how come excessive force was used?"
> No idea. Claims of excessive force being used are still being investigated and unless it's confirmed that question isn't really valid.
> 
> "Are police officers only capable of arresting protesters who are not right-wing zombies?"
> Yay, bias.



I lol'd at your rebuttals and agree the author was biased, but the tea party rally really is just a disgrace 

[EDIT]
fixed your link in the above quote it didn't seem to work it kept bringing me back to SS.org


----------



## Waelstrum

ghstofperdition said:


> @ Waelstrum
> Gender Identity and gender expression is a VASTLY different thing from sexual orientation. My understanding is that Eddie identifies as male, but choses to express himself as female via wearing feminine clothing. As Drak has proven thus far, there are people that see crossdressing as a hobby. The definition of transvestite is one who likes to wear the clothing/portray the appearance of the opposite sex. They still identify as male, and have little to no symptoms of gender identity disorder.
> 
> Sexual orientation is far different than that. It's about what sex you are attracted to. He prefers females and identifies as male, so he is heterosexual. I see mtf transsexuals that are attracted to men as heterosexual as well, but more hardline members of the LGBT community will vehemently disagree with this. While different, gender identity and sexual orientation are interwoven. In the case of Eddie Izzard, had he been attracted to men only, I would consider him gay in that case since he identifies as male.
> 
> At the end of the day, what a person identifies as takes precedence over everything else. Whether one might disagree or not, it is foolish to think you know a person's gender identity and orientation better than they do. (I will concede this point to Trenchlord regarding my recent statements about Rick Santorum)



That's what I thought. Basically, he's a straight male who sometimes dresses as a woman.


----------



## Necris

flint757 said:


> The tea party rally really is just a disgrace
> 
> [EIT]
> fixed your link in the above quote it didn't seem to work it kept bringing me back to SS.org


No argument there. 
I'm not sure why the link was broken either, but I've replaced it now.


----------



## groph

Prominent Canadian LGBT activist, journalist murdered in Nova Scotia &#8211; LGBTQ Nation

I dunno if this is a hate crime or not, regardless the local gay community where I'm from has lost a valued member, Raymond Taavel.

This guy was beaten to death outside of a gay bar by a paranoid schizophrenic man with a history of aggression and impulsivity. The man was let out of his institution for an hour long leave, didn't return, and now he's charged with second degree murder. He's in custody. I heard some accounts where the assailant was throwing slurs (faggot, etc.) at Raymond during the beating so there could be some hate-crime dimension to it but the murderer was completely mentally unfit to begin with. That doesn't really matter though, Raymond's still gone. There was a vigil held for him in Halifax just earlier today.


----------



## Guitarman700

groph said:


> Prominent Canadian LGBT activist, journalist murdered in Nova Scotia  LGBTQ Nation
> 
> I dunno if this is a hate crime or not, regardless the local gay community where I'm from has lost a valued member, Raymond Taavel.
> 
> This guy was beaten to death outside of a gay bar by a paranoid schizophrenic man with a history of aggression and impulsivity. The man was let out of his institution for an hour long leave, didn't return, and now he's charged with second degree murder. He's in custody. I heard some accounts where the assailant was throwing slurs (faggot, etc.) at Raymond during the beating so there could be some hate-crime dimension to it but the murderer was completely mentally unfit to begin with. That doesn't really matter though, Raymond's still gone. There was a vigil held for him in Halifax just earlier today.


 that's terrible. My thoughts to his family and friends. May he find some peace in the nothing.


----------



## flint757

Same give my condolences as well.

I don't think it was hate if he was mental, that being said I think anyone capable of killing to some degree is mental whether for money, pleasure or self delusion.


----------



## tacotiklah

Bumping this thread because it's awesome. 


So it sounds like we've had an eventful week. Obama backs gay marriage and I just saw on my fb feed that the NAACP now does as well. It's like the world is waking up and realizing it's had it's head up it's ass this whole time. Praise be to the sodomy and fashion gods!

So, a qurstion popped up in my head when I read all this, and I pose it to my bros and sisters here: If we actually get gay marriage legal, would you take advantage of it and marry? 

Also, with more acceptance comes more hatred from the opposition. What do you guys think of Obama kicking over the hornet's nest? My fb is getting plenty of "buzz" about republican senators having all kinds of vile suggestions for us ranging from being arrested all the way to being murdered in our sleep.


----------



## The Uncreator

I find it hard to believe that this kind of thing will last much longer. As the worlds population is slowly replaced with newer generations of people, they are constantly being brought up in an ever more accepting society, at least excluding some major political sides, which even then, seem to be waning themselves.

A dear friend of mine who is gay, and has struggled with it her entire life, told me it wasn't about legalizing gay marriage so they could all run out get married at the same time. It was just about knowing that the right for you to do so existed.

It seems that a lot of people (just from what I have read) think that the day gay marriage is legal everywhere the streets will be flooded with gay couples getting married by thousands, millions, billions!! So many they will overthrow the government (they seem to say)

I find it ever frustrating to see this, while not being gay myself I can't imagine how frustrating this kind of ignorance is to those who are.

Its like trying to fathom someone hating me because I have a blue guitar, and only red ones are good ones....Its just...Nonsensical stupidity.


----------



## Waelstrum

ghstofperdition said:


> So, a qurstion popped up in my head when I read all this, and I pose it to my bros and sisters here: If we actually get gay marriage legal, would you take advantage of it and marry?



None of the gay people I know* are of marrying age (30+), so I doubt I'll be at a gay wedding for quite a while.



(*There are probably people I know that I think are straight but are actually gay, because I'm a bit slow to pick up on these things.)


----------



## The Uncreator

You have to be a certain age to get married in Australia?


----------



## Jakke

The Uncreator said:


> You have to be a certain age to get married in Australia?



It's eighteen here in Sweden.


----------



## flint757

I think 17 in most US states too. Unless they are like 14 though don't count out any marriages just yet, I know a lot of people who got married basically right after high school.


----------



## The Uncreator

Well what I should of said was it really so high (30yrs old), that seems extreme.


----------



## Jakke

The Uncreator said:


> Well what I should of said was it really so high (30yrs old), that seems extreme.



Nah, "marrying age" usually implies that you are of the age when people usually marry, not that there is an age restriction.


----------



## Waelstrum

I think you can marry at 16 with your parents permission, otherwise it's 18. What I meant was the age people usually get married. Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## The Uncreator

Ok, just seemed a bit odd


----------



## The Uncreator




----------



## BrianUV777BK

I'm not gay but my boyfriend is.  

ZIIIING!

Live and let live, as the kids say.


----------



## beneharris

The Uncreator said:


>



that comic doesn't actually touch on the "man and woman" aspect. sure solomon had lots of wives, but there is never a point in the bible when that is pointed out as being an "ideal marriage"

also, if a man rapes a woman and he has to marry her, is still a man and a woman.

not trying to say anything about same sex marriage, just that this comic is a little bit shallow.

although, that last panel is really funny


----------



## flint757

^^^Jokes rarely include all things factual, if it did probably wouldn't have been as funny either


----------



## beneharris

flint757 said:


> ^^^Jokes rarely include all things factual, if it did probably wouldn't have been as funny either





Ah see I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be a joke, or more of a serious one. 

nevermind!


----------



## The Uncreator

Only so much information can be crammed into four panels, the point really is made in the last one, which is the punchline and the "truthsayer"


----------



## tacotiklah

So I just got my term paper from my psy 101 class back. I did it on gender identity disorder and saw that I had gotten 148/150 points on it. 
Even better, my teacher pulled me aside and asked me to email her a copy so that she can use it as an example of a well written paper for future classes. Despite all that making me feel flattered, the thing that made me happiest was seeing in ink on the last page the words "great job jessica!". Since pretty much no one calls me jess or jessica, it felt damn good to at least see someone supports me in that way. I was really touched by it tbvh...


----------



## All_¥our_Bass




----------



## synrgy

This seemed like the best thread to share this:

BREAKING: Two Republican Judges Declare DOMA Unconstitutional | ThinkProgress

No small victory, here. I sincerely hope this helps to accelerate the leveling of the playing field.


----------



## tacotiklah

synrgy said:


> This seemed like the best thread to share this:
> 
> BREAKING: Two Republican Judges Declare DOMA Unconstitutional | ThinkProgress
> 
> No small victory, here. I sincerely hope this helps to accelerate the leveling of the playing field.



  

And we are going in the right direction finally!


----------



## MFB

a quote from tumblr



> i&#8217;m about to cry
> 
> my brother told me that only today he found out that LGBT stood for les/gay/bi/trans instead of lettuce green bacon tomato
> 
> he looked at me and he had tears in his eyes and he said in the most horrified voice
> 
> i&#8217;ve been telling people i like LGBT sandwiches okay that means i&#8217;ve been having gay sandwiches
> 
> then he started to cry and ran off and yelled
> 
> they all think i&#8217;ve had gay threesomes!!!!!
> 
> i&#8217;m actually crying omg


----------



## tacotiklah

^


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I never knew so much win and so much lulz could be contained in only 3 posts.


----------



## MFB

God damn this handsome devil. I mean, he was a bromance for me before, but that beard?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## tacotiklah

Someone needs to make a gay version of the photogenic guy meme! 

And that guy is pretty damn hot. Maybe a slight trim on the face, but other than that, oh lawdy! 

Oh and I was happy to see this on my facebook newsfeed today:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/06/05/lgbt/


----------



## tacotiklah

Bumping this thread with a really cool article that I think will make some of you Aussie pro-LGBT forumers pretty happy:
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian


----------



## BucketheadRules

I'm yet another straight guy coming to this thread as an interloper, sorry , but I felt I had to say that this is a fantastic thread idea. 

The LGBT community is so often marginalized and has had a fuckload of stigmas attached to it by closed-minded idiots (*cough cough* Bible Belt *cough cough*), so it's a breath of fresh air to see a thread here where people can talk about their sexual preferences without being judged.

Sexuality is just a part of human nature. It's no use judging people by their sexuality because it can't be changed, nor is it actually something that should be used to judge people by - there is nothing specifically wrong with swinging one way or the other. 

You could say it's like Duncans vs DiMarzios or Gibson vs Fender or whatever - it's just preference... that being said, it's a lot more important than small, niggling gear decisions, and it's not something you can just change at will either. Come to think of it, that was a shit metaphor really. 

Anyway. I firmly believe that if you're a guy and want to shag another guy, then fine. If you're a girl and want to shag another girl, fine. If you want to shag both (or even at the same time if you want) then fine. If you're curious about your sexuality or you don't feel comfortable being the gender you were born as, then fine. Or whatever else, I'm sure there are loads of other situations.

And what's more, I deeply respect any of the people in the above situations - it can't be easy on any level, really. Not just having to make such a huge, life-changing discovery, but also having to deal with the reactions of others. 

I think it's pretty sad that we live in a society which is so advanced but still has to deal with prejudice against something which is really no-one's business but the people whose bodies it concerns.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah it's pretty shitty when I have to spend so much time and effort justifying my orientation and gender identity to people. Like this girl:
https://www.change.org/petitions/te...top-discriminating-against-transgender-people

Fuck this shit. It's 2012, let people be who they wanna be already please.


----------



## Guitarman700

I found an LGBT group locally. Most are trans, two are gay. I'm the only Bi. Cool people, and I'm excited to make some new friends.


----------



## Jakke

I have heard that there is some prejudice among gay people towards people who are bi, is that anything you've encountered?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Jakke said:


> I have heard that there is some prejudice among gay people towards people who are bi, is that anything you've encountered?



I've never had any problem with bisexual people.


----------



## Jakke

Ok, can be*


----------



## tacotiklah

Jakke said:


> I have heard that there is some prejudice among gay people towards people who are bi, is that anything you've encountered?



I have. I believe I've even mentioned this way back in the love and relationships thread when I was trying to find my first boyfriend, but I'll mention it again. I met this gay guy after going to a meeting for the lgbt group out here and we were talking like we were gonna attempt dating. Took him to the movies and met his grandparents. Then he stopped talking to me. Then out of the blue on facebook he starts hitting on me like crazy, and heads over to my house like we're gonna have sex. We watch the walking dead, then he wigs out saying he made a mistake and goes home. Never heard from him since. Apparently he can't bring himself to ever trust bis again because the only 2 that he's dated were pieces of scum. (one was a pedo, the other beat the hell out of him)

So relax guys, you're not the only one that has to pay for what some fucked up people did in the past.

Tbvh, I've gotten way more shit from the gay community for being trans than anything else. People can't seem to divorce themselves from traditional concepts of gender sadly.


----------



## Dan_Vacant

and hello I'm another straight guy that has lgbt friends and I saw this thread and dropped in and read some stuffs.
today on facebook I saw a post that said "I'm going to stop saying I'm bi and say I'm "non discriminating.""


----------



## Xaios

ghstofperdition said:


> Tbvh, I've gotten way more shit from the gay community for being trans than anything else. People can't seem to divorce themselves from traditional concepts of gender sadly.



I admit, the notion that the gay community is the one giving you the most grief for being trans is... definitely not what I expected.

I remember watching an old episode of King of the Hill once where Hank discovers his driver's license says he's a woman. He goes to the DMV to have them fix it, but they won't do it unless he brings in a doctor's report confirming he's male. Then his doctor won't do the report without doing a full examination before hand, saying something like "gender isn't as cut and dry as it used to be, Hank." 



ghstofperdition said:


> Despite all that making me feel flattered, the thing that made me happiest was seeing in ink on the last page the words "great job jessica!".



Do you find people have a really hard time calling you by your new name? I know some people that changed their names out of the blue about 3 years ago. They did it to divorce themselves from their abusive childhoods. Still though, to this day, whenever I think of them, I think of them as being "Chris and Sarah."

Granted, it doesn't help that they changed their names to Cain and Imogen.


----------



## Jakke

^I have now learned to use Jessica, as that is her name, although I had to hold in "dude-comments" in the beginning


----------



## tacotiklah

Well I'm not saying that the gay community is giving me more crap because that's not true at all. The rest of society is still far in the lead there. But I have seen a lot of horrifyingly grotesque transphobic comments from those that identify as gay. 

One of more visual people that have done this is Dan Savage.


And thanks Jakke! Don't worry about the dude comments, since I call everyone dude anyways. It's a SoCal thing...


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

ghstofperdition said:


> One of more visual people that have done this is Dan Savage.



Don't forget that Dan Savage is pretty blatantly biphobic. His stance is pretty much that bisexuality doesn't exist, it seems. He seems to say that bisexuals are just in the process of coming out as gay.

I really want to like the man because he's done quite a bit of good, yet he's pretty bigoted.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I will admit, that did happen to me. I was bi at first, but then I just slowly lost interest in girls. I don't see myself dating anything with a vagina in the future. 

EDIT: Gotta love how my 2500th post is about vaginas.


----------



## Waelstrum

Best. Milestone. Ever.


----------



## tacotiklah

Not for a gay guy. A gay guy posting about vagina is like a straight guy posting about dick.

My sympathies Jazz.


----------



## Waelstrum

EDIT: That came out wrong the first time. Straight guys post about dick all the time, but I guess I'm just being a tad immature.


----------



## tacotiklah

No worries. I've been asked numerous times how a guy could ever possibly want to be with another dude. I ask those people if they get a slight repulsion at the though of them doing anything with a guy, and they say yes. I explain to them that that's the exact feeling a gay guy feels when confronted with the idea of heterosexual sex. It's so weird and uncomfortable to them.

So it basically came down to while they support other's rights to have straight relationships, it was definitely not for them.


----------



## Guitarman700

Jakke said:


> I have heard that there is some prejudice among gay people towards people who are bi, is that anything you've encountered?



I've encountered this. It was shocking at first, now I just find it sad. Seems bigotry knows no bounds.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

I just think the gays are not to be trusted cuz I saw on jerry springer its all fake


----------



## S-O

I just can't wrap my head around how anyone could be so bothered by love?

One thing that I find prevalent is hyper-sexuality, but that isn't limited to the LGBT crowd, kind of a whole world crowd.

Though, I can't cast stones


----------



## tacotiklah

Guitarman700 said:


> I've encountered this. It was shocking at first, now I just find it sad. Seems bigotry knows no bounds.



Exactly. I've learned that just because you're gay/lesbian/bi/trans/pan/asexual/poly/etc., your prejudices and hatred doesn't just stop. In fact for a select number of people, it may even intensify in what I call the "willem dafoe syndrome". I got the term from watching the first boondock saints movie, where Willem Dafoe's character is gay, but will throw out homophobic epithets at other gay people.


----------



## Necris

ghstofperdition said:


> Well I'm not saying that the gay community is giving me more crap because that's not true at all. The rest of society is still far in the lead there. But I have seen a lot of horrifyingly grotesque transphobic comments from those that identify as gay.


On the other side of the coin the same hate comes from the Transgendered community towards gays and bisexuals. I can't tell you how many transgendered women I have spoken to who are very violent in their speech against homosexuals. Bisexuals are pretty much unanimously detested unless they also happen to be trans themselves in which case they're usually accepted.


----------



## tacotiklah

Very true. I've seen TS women go apeshit on transgenderists such as myself. For those that don't know the difference, a transgenderist is someone that doesn't have to go through a complete transition. In other words, they decide to keep their junk, but will get boobs and other work done. Some transsexuals get very militant about it because of the fact that their idea of gender is as binary as any fundamentalist out there. I've had to leave a couple trans forums because of the shit I've gotten over this. My gender identity is something of an oxymoron due to the fact that I'm something of a "non op transsexual". If I had the $1912830749814203 it costs to get my shit chopped off, I'd probably do it, but I figure I'm going to be in the $30,000 annual bracket, even after my degree, so I have to be cool with keeping my monsters for now.

Tell that to some of the more out there transwomen and they go nuts. I've seen some hate against gay and bi people as well. More so against the latter, since they do similar to some of the gay hate I've seen like how bi people need to "pick a side" and be done with it. It's ridiculous. No wonder people don't take the LGBT community seriously; we fight so much among ourselves that everybody is turned off by our own self hatred....

Edit: Awesome, I spend most of my waking moments helping LGBTs and now I'm a bigot. Thanks...


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

I lol'd 

Wacky negs ftw


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Dem just hatuhs.


----------



## Jakke

ghstofperdition said:


> And thanks Jakke! Don't worry about the dude comments, since I call everyone dude anyways. It's a SoCal thing...



Okay du... Dudette? ()

BTW, Leif and I are ready for plunder whenever you are.


----------



## Waelstrum

Reminds me of when they called that black Swede racist against Africans.


----------



## Bigfan

Jakke said:


> Okay du... Dudette? ()
> 
> BTW, Leif and I are ready for plunder whenever you are.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

ghstofperdition said:


> And thanks Jakke! Don't worry about the dude comments, since I call everyone dude anyways. It's a SoCal thing...



I thought dude was universal everywhere(sounds a bit redundant, non?). Or it refers to a guy, it's kind of contextual. Maybe it's a sub-tropical thing.


----------



## tacotiklah

Not sure, but it has pretty much evolved into being a staple of SoCal lingo. I call everyone dude regardless of gender.


----------



## Bigfan

ghstofperdition said:


> Not sure, but it has pretty much evolved into being a staple of SoCal lingo. I call everyone dude regardless of gender.



That makes sense, bro.


----------



## tacotiklah

icwatudidthere.... 





I say when in doubt and you really wanna know, just politely ask. 


Now that I'm a bit more sober-minded, I can better tackle clarifying what it was that I was trying to say last night:
The LGBT community these last few years have had a rather dark history of infighting. Gays and bis are at each other's throats over perceived bigotry, some members of the trans community have been fighting with each other over who is more of an actual woman, bisexuals fighting with each other for the same reasons that gays and bis have been going at it, and the gay community fighting with the trans community over perceived bigotry.

Now when I say this, do I mean the ENTIRE population of those communities? Of course not, and I wouldn't even put that number at a quarter of the population of those communities. But there ARE enough that it is a growing concern for people such as myself that if the trend continues, it COULD get way out of hand and will undermine our main cause. As the saying goes, a house divided cannot stand.

Lemme try to explain each of these conflicts that I've seen as best as I can see them. There are those in the gay community that feel that bisexuals are just living in denial and are greedy and selfish and can't commit to a relationship because they have to have to sleep with both genders simultaneously. In other words, they think that bis are really gay or straight and are lying to themselves and others, and that they are whores. NOT ALL OF THE GAY COMMUNITY THINKS THIS, and again, I believe that number that do are a small fraction overall. As such, bisexuals are claiming bigotry, and rightly so, but then some of them think that all gays think like this and refuse to date them, thus perpetuating the myth that bis can't be committed in same sex relationships. It's all ridiculous assumptions on everybody's part, and I really have met some gay men and women that have said/done some of this. But the vast majority of the gay men and women I know are super supportive of the bisexual community and do not have these prejudices...

In the trans community there are some seriously messed up people (thankfully a tiny minority) that think that if you don't want to fully, but partially transition from one gender to the other, then you're just wasting everyone's time and are a plague to all other transsexuals out there and are mucking it up for everybody else. I've even been attacked on a forum by one of these people, having been told that if I want to keep my junk, I should just go work as a shemale porn star. (which is pretty much THE worst thing you can say to a transwoman) I've also seen infighting where crossdressers get attacked by some transsexuals because for the TS girls, transition is a life or death thing and see CDing as a mockery of it. Again, a very small amount of TS are like this, but it's enough that I have to scratch my head because it feels like a projection of insecurity. NOT ALL TRANSSEXUALS ARE LIKE THIS, and again that number is few and far in between. Often enough, there are forums that really do save lives and are out there to help people. IIRC the suicide rate for transgenders are at over 70% and growing. Being attacked by other transpersons is irresponsible and will make that suicide rate jump. The great forums out there actually help call out the crappy people and expose them for what they are. So yes, the majority of transpersons do a lot to help each other out and lives are saved this way. I'm super grateful to have forums and friends that can help me through this transition thing, and some of them are transgenders themselves.

Some bisexuals are at each other's throats for the same reason as some gays are at bisexuals throats; inability to commit to a same sex partner. I've had to call some people out on this on some of the fb groups that I've been on because it is REALLY stupid. NOT ALL BISEXUALS ARE LIKE THIS and the number of those that do is small.

Some gays have a real problem with transgenders. I've been under the gun on a pro-gay fb page having been called mentally unstable because I may/may not want to have my junk chopped off, and a lot worse. The number of people that did this were few, but enough that I really was dismayed. Having checked this out further, I was not alone in seeing some transphobia from some people in the gay community. I see this as ridiculous since the gay rights movement more or less started at the Stonewall Riots in I believe it was 1975 and guess who was a part of that? That's right, transpeople. 
NOT ALL GAYS AND LESBIANS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TRANSPEOPLE, and despite my initial findings this number is pretty small. In fact one of the people that have been helping me with my transition the most in the form of moral support is in fact a lesbian.

So as you can see there are some problems, but education and a willingness to change can fix this. I call out people that have those attitudes all the time and try to show them the folly of those attitudes. Guess what? I do the same thing for straights and cisgenders (meaning that your genetic sex and gender match). It's not me trying to go and bully the lgbt community, but rather referee it a bit because people can get a little crazy sometimes. Bigotry doesn't end just because you came out of the closet, and for some people that have, that bigotry only intensifies. This is a ridiculous thing to have happen since it really does hurt and set back what progress we've been trying to make in showing people that we're not crazy or unstable.

Hope this clears my point up a bit, and sheds light onto the inner workings of things for some of the straight/cisgender allies that we have here. Remember that on the whole, we are still very united and supportive of each other. We just have a few bad apples *cough* dan savage *cough* that need to be ignored.


----------



## Waelstrum

Wait, what's Dan Savage done? It'd be a shame if he's not the guy I thought he was, 'cause I liked that 'it gets better' campaign.


----------



## Guitarman700

Waelstrum said:


> Wait, what's Dan Savage done? It'd be a shame if he's not the guy I thought he was, 'cause I liked that 'it gets better' campaign.



He's said enough really terrible things about transpeople and Bi's that it negates any good It Gets Better has ever done. He only cares about gays and lesbians.
As someone I know put it, he's the white Steve Harvey.


----------



## Waelstrum

Oh...


----------



## ilyti

@ghstofperdition: It almost seems like because of insecurity within their own respective community, certain individuals lash out at the others. Not unlike metal fans arguing amongst themselves over the validity of metal subgenres. Every single person arguing in their own favour believes that his or her view is the only correct one, and that's nonsense. It's a human tendency that rises from insecurity (which is something a lot more common among LGBT youth, if I'm correct, which often leads to higher rates of suicide). It seems like the best thing to do is stay out of those arguments as much as possible. Live your life as an individual. Be as happy as you can, without seeking validation from members of the group.

You mention that your intention is to "referee" the situation wherever possible, and that's commendable. But I'd be absolutely careful not to _appear _as though you are fighting or arguing just for the sake of it. Soccer players sometimes feel that the referee is biased against them, and react as if he is their enemy. If you view it as you're the trans referee, between the gay team and the bisexual team (just an example), both could view you as biased in some way and ignore your view on the matter. So the idea that "education and a willingness to change" isn't necessarily the answer, because why should they change their view because _you _said so? 

There are, and always will be, stubborn, selfish assholes in every social group who drag everyone else down. It seems to me that the LGBT community started to fragment as soon as they were commonly known as the LGBT community. There are _at least_ 4 communities under that umbrella! And the more widely accepted alternate sexuality becomes, the more people will be involved in the arguments. The initial "let's all pull together towards a common goal" thing is fading away because too many people have too many different interests, ultimately.

That is a shocking statistic for transgendered suicides. 70% and growing?? Support groups could be the answer, but maybe only if that support group is exclusively transpeople. What I see happening over the next few decades is the different parts of the LGBT community will continue to separate from each other, and then within their own groups, have to pull together. And hopefully not declare war on the others.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah it was bad enough that a group of transwomen actually "glitterbombed" him at one of his speeches. Basically they took a jug of glitter and dumped it on him at random. Now I don't agree with that tactic, but I can see where they'd be mad enough to do it.


----------



## Jakke

ghstofperdition said:


> Yeah it was bad enough that a group of transwomen actually "glitterbombed" him at one of his speeches. Basically they took a jug of glitter and dumped it on him at random. Now I don't agree with that tactic, but I can see where they'd be mad enough to do it.



If he is already gay, why glitterbomb him?


^As demonstrated by Mr Supreme


----------



## Leuchty

I didn't read the WHOLE thread, its pretty big. 

All I wanted to say was...

Gay rights ARE INEVITABLE.

Remeber, once upon a time...

The world was flat, Black people were slaves and soon we will be saying...Gays WERE frowned upon...once upon a time...

Personally I dont care what you "are", if you're happy...sweet. 

Hop I wasn't too off topic.


----------



## Jakke

CYBERSYN said:


> Hop I wasn't too off topic.



This is actually eight pages of gay-bashing, so that was terribly OT




Nah, everyone has essentially said the same thing, glad to have you aboard man


----------



## tacotiklah

^ Jakke you forgot the discussion of Drakkar's fashion tips and where it is and is not acceptable to put your little sister's pet hamster.


----------



## Jakke

Oh, I'm sorry




Also general Q&A with ghstofperdition


----------



## tacotiklah

I feel bad that I'm like the only outwardly open TS here, and I feel like all my answers to your guys' questions about it are doing a disservice to the community as a whole. 


Saw this today, and it pretty much describes some of my current struggles:


----------



## Jakke

^We're with you all the way


----------



## tacotiklah

Thanks man! 

I need all the help I can get. You spend a 1/4 of a century living a lie, and when it comes time to live as you really are, it is a total mindfuck. But hey, you do what ya gotta do. I got this, but some days it's hard. I'm just getting out of a period where I pretty much ran for the closet and stopped looking female entirely because of being read in public so often and being put way down about it. (drunk bigots are the worst!  )
Thankfully I'm getting past that and looking more towards my goal. Eye on the prize, not the target and all that.


----------



## Jakke

You know where to find me if you need anything (well, at a distance, but still). I often log onto facebook every day


----------



## tacotiklah

Will do!


And the same goes to you and anyone else that needs to bend an ear. Or needs a laugh.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

What exactly has Dan Savage said that angers people so much? For what it's worth I find the It Gets Better thing to be a waste of time for the most part and a serious redirection in useful energy..BUT I doubt that's what this is about. What did he say about bi people and trans people?


----------



## tacotiklah

I can't find it (I've been trying to so I can post it in here), but Dan did an article on bisexual teenagers saying that they are really just confused about their sexuality and they just can't admit that they're gay, so they say they are bisexual just to be more accepted.


----------



## Guitarman700

ghstofperdition said:


> I can't find it (I've been trying to so I can post it in here), but Dan did an article on bisexual teenagers saying that they are really just confused about their sexuality and they just can't admit that they're gay, so they say they are bisexual just to be more accepted.



He also said that gays and lesbians shouldn't date bisexuals, as they're not really attracted to the opposite sex, and that transpeople are just gays and lesbians who are mixed up and lying to themselves.
He's an idiot.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> I can't find it (I've been trying to so I can post it in here), but Dan did an article on bisexual teenagers saying that they are really just confused about their sexuality and they just can't admit that they're gay, so they say they are bisexual just to be more accepted.



Weeeellll....he has a point. A lot of younger kids are actually confused and use "bi" as a gateway when just admitting to being gay would quicken the process. Bi has become the in thing and it's a label many are slapping on with no real understanding of it. ESPECIALLY gay guys...they love the bi card when it actually means they're gay..but being gay has such a stigma to it they claim bi since it's safer. Girls do it for attention, and some are rather chaotic and have gone through various problems and more often than not a girl saying she's bi is cause for concern as you never quite know what you're getting. 

I don't know how Dan worded it, but I definitely see the whole bi vs. gay thing and it has serious merit.




Guitarman700 said:


> He also said that gays and lesbians shouldn't date bisexuals, as they're not really attracted to the opposite sex, and that transpeople are just gays and lesbians who are mixed up and lying to themselves.
> He's an idiot.



Well lots of gay people don't date bi people...I'm one of them. There always seems to be confusion and guidelines with them and it's not worth the hassle. Obviously not all bi people, but lots of them just bring chaos.

As for the trans thing...ehhh I don't agree with him, however I do remember him saying something along the lines of the gay community sort of playing to the rules of trans people regarding gender as a pc way of doing things. That part I understand but I wouldn't say trans people are confused. I agree with him that not everyone has to "play along" when it comes to mentioning a trans-person's sex, nor should they be forced into doing so or criticized for it.


----------



## Dan_Vacant

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Weeeellll....he has a point. A lot of younger kids are actually confused and use "bi" as a gateway when just admitting to being gay would quicken the process. Bi has become the in thing and it's a label many are slapping on with no real understanding of it. ESPECIALLY gay guys...they love the bi card when it actually means they're gay..but being gay has such a stigma to it they claim bi since it's safer. Girls do it for attention, and some are rather chaotic and have gone through various problems and more often than not a girl saying she's bi is cause for concern as you never quite know what you're getting.
> 
> I don't know how Dan worded it, but I definitely see the whole bi vs. gay thing and it has serious merit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well lots of gay people don't date bi people...I'm one of them. There always seems to be confusion and guidelines with them and it's not worth the hassle. Obviously not all bi people, but lots of them just bring chaos.
> 
> As for the trans thing...ehhh I don't agree with him, however I do remember him saying something along the lines of the gay community sort of playing to the rules of trans people regarding gender as a pc way of doing things. That part I understand but I wouldn't say trans people are confused. I agree with him that not everyone has to "play along" when it comes to mentioning a trans-person's sex, nor should they be forced into doing so or criticized for it.


I wasn't aware that bi people can be a hassle I just thought the girls I dated were odd and closer to lesbian then bi(the ones that say they are bi)
and I agree on the bi being the in thing I dated a girl that claimed to be bi but she was pretty homophobic.


----------



## Jakke

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> As for the trans thing...ehhh I don't agree with him, however *I do remember him saying something along the lines of the gay community sort of playing to the rules of trans people regarding gender as a pc way of doing things*. That part I understand but I wouldn't say trans people are confused. I agree with him that not everyone has to "play along" when it comes to mentioning a trans-person's sex, nor should they be forced into doing so or criticized for it.



Wait... The gay community has PC?


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Weeeellll....he has a point. A lot of younger kids are actually confused and use "bi" as a gateway when just admitting to being gay would quicken the process. Bi has become the in thing and it's a label many are slapping on with no real understanding of it. ESPECIALLY gay guys...they love the bi card when it actually means they're gay..but being gay has such a stigma to it they claim bi since it's safer. Girls do it for attention, and some are rather chaotic and have gone through various problems and more often than not a girl saying she's bi is cause for concern as you never quite know what you're getting.
> 
> I don't know how Dan worded it, but I definitely see the whole bi vs. gay thing and it has serious merit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well lots of gay people don't date bi people...I'm one of them. There always seems to be confusion and guidelines with them and it's not worth the hassle. Obviously not all bi people, but lots of them just bring chaos.
> 
> As for the trans thing...ehhh I don't agree with him, however I do remember him saying something along the lines of the gay community sort of playing to the rules of trans people regarding gender as a pc way of doing things. That part I understand but I wouldn't say trans people are confused. I agree with him that not everyone has to "play along" when it comes to mentioning a trans-person's sex, nor should they be forced into doing so or criticized for it.




IIRC (Goddamn I wish I could find that article), Dan pretty much said that kids have no clue of their sexuality and therefore are incapable of deciding at all. That's a damn lie because quite a few people (myself included) knew that they swung both ways at around the time of puberty. (also when I realized I was trans). I knew of kids even younger than then having sex for the first time. Hell even elementary school kids had crushes and it was pretty obvious who "liked" who. So yes, while kids may not understand the concept of sex, bi/homosexuality is something that can exhibit, even at a young age. 
He also says that bis hide behind their sexuality to hide behind because they are really gay. Interesting, I'm completely out about myself, and am in a hetero relationship as a female (but for those that have beef with that concept fine, gay relationship) but not too long ago went out on a date with a female. (bf knew of this and was cool with it. kinda funny was he wanted a LOT of detail.  )

Now for the trans thing, I've been looking and haven't found it. I have found Dan owning up to saying some messed up things way earlier in his "career", but what those are, I don't know.
Judging from what Colin says, it probably has to do with something I just mentioned. I am transitioning from male to female. As such I ask people to see me as female. Not all will do this (and I grow more accepting of this fact), but part of that means that the dynamics of my relationships will change too. Whereas I was in a gay relationship (and I'd be cool with that even if I were a guy), the dynamic of that relationship has changed to where it's considered a hetero relationship. Frankly I don't care either way what it is, because gay or hetero, I love that man with my heart and that's why I stick around; not because of what's in his pants and labels mean nothing to me. 

So my guess would be that Dan was one of the types saying that it's not a hetero relationship. Cool if you believe that, but then that shows a lack of acceptance for the concept of transgenderism. If that's how you roll, then fine, but be honest about what it is; bigotry. Scientists have been studying this for a while, and while a lot is not known, what is known is that trans is real and it is because that person really does have a brain that is wired to be of the sex opposite of what their body is. It's postulated that it occurs while in the womb, but as I've said it's just a guess. The fact remains that to successfully transition, your relationships have to transition too.


----------



## The Uncreator

Gave me a sad face, but it shows how far we've come. Well, maybe it does.....honestly I am not sure.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> IIRC (Goddamn I wish I could find that article), Dan pretty much said that kids have no clue of their sexuality and therefore are incapable of deciding at all. That's a damn lie because quite a few people (myself included) knew that they swung both ways at around the time of puberty. (also when I realized I was trans). I knew of kids even younger than then having sex for the first time. Hell even elementary school kids had crushes and it was pretty obvious who "liked" who. So yes, while kids may not understand the concept of sex, bi/homosexuality is something that can exhibit, even at a young age.
> He also says that bis hide behind their sexuality to hide behind because they are really gay. Interesting, I'm completely out about myself, and am in a hetero relationship as a female (but for those that have beef with that concept fine, gay relationship) but not too long ago went out on a date with a female. (bf knew of this and was cool with it. kinda funny was he wanted a LOT of detail.  )
> 
> Now for the trans thing, I've been looking and haven't found it. I have found Dan owning up to saying some messed up things way earlier in his "career", but what those are, I don't know.
> Judging from what Colin says, it probably has to do with something I just mentioned. I am transitioning from male to female. As such I ask people to see me as female. Not all will do this (and I grow more accepting of this fact), but part of that means that the dynamics of my relationships will change too. Whereas I was in a gay relationship (and I'd be cool with that even if I were a guy), the dynamic of that relationship has changed to where it's considered a hetero relationship. Frankly I don't care either way what it is, because gay or hetero, I love that man with my heart and that's why I stick around; not because of what's in his pants and labels mean nothing to me.
> 
> So my guess would be that Dan was one of the types saying that it's not a hetero relationship. Cool if you believe that, but then that shows a lack of acceptance for the concept of transgenderism. If that's how you roll, then fine, but be honest about what it is; bigotry. Scientists have been studying this for a while, and while a lot is not known, what is known is that trans is real and it is because that person really does have a brain that is wired to be of the sex opposite of what their body is. It's postulated that it occurs while in the womb, but as I've said it's just a guess. The fact remains that to successfully transition, your relationships have to transition too.



I'm with him on the hiding behind the bi label thing..not all bi people but a lot of them do that..it's not a stereotype..it's just truth. Many gay/straight people won't deal with "bi" people because it often courts chaos, I've seen it happen more times than I've seen it not happen.

As for the hetero/homo relationship when dealing with a trans person..IMO they are what they were born as. You can feel like whatever you want but if you're born male nothing is going to change that..so dating a man who looks like a woman is still a homosexual relationship because you're both men. Dan has mentioned that before, stating that the trans movement wants to force people to redefine things and you can't expect people to. If I was dating someone whom I thought was a guy and it turned out they were born a woman I would consider them a woman, regardless of their physical appearance. Changing the outside doesn't change the inside and that's not bigoted, that's just basic logic and it bothers me that many trans people try to force a way of thinking that works for them onto everyone else.


----------



## tacotiklah

^ Well one could take that line of thought a step further and say marriage is only for a man and a woman, and the LGBT community is just trying to force basic logic into a way that is convenient for them. See how that works?

Those two concepts are really just a stone's throw away. I mean hell if that's what you believe, by all means believe it. Just own up to what it is; a lack of acceptance. It's like the person that steals for a living; it's none of my business how you earn a living, but own up to being a thief.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> ^ Well one could take that line of thought a step further and say marriage is only for a man and a woman, and the LGBT community is just trying to force basic logic into a way that is convenient for them. See how that works?
> 
> Those two concepts are really just a stone's throw away. I mean hell if that's what you believe, by all means believe it. Just own up to what it is; a lack of acceptance. It's like the person that steals for a living; it's none of my business how you earn a living, but own up to being a thief.



That honestly doesn't make a lick of sense. Marriage and your biological gender don't even equate and that's just a smokescreen, honestly. A man getting surgery to look like a woman is a man..who looks like a woman. You can't force someone to call that person a woman and tell them that they're bigoted for following logic. 

Marriage is a business contract that religious people have tried to use to keep a foot on the neck of gay rights, which is not even in the same league.

I can accept a person feeling that they're the opposite gender and wanting to change their outside look to something they're more comfortable with. I have no issue with that. But claiming that me looking like a woman means I am a woman and a man has to see me as a woman and consider me such..THAT actually is non-acceptance. If you refuse to understand why people have a problem with that then the bigotry isn't really on their side. I honestly think trans people should own up to the situation that they're in and instead of trying to force something that doesn't fit, acknowledge that it doesn't and that's fine. 

I don't try to force people to think about homosexuality a certain way. People think whatever they want about me and that's fine as long a I'm treated like a human being..doesn't even have to be a human being they like or respect..but all I ask for is basic human decency. I don't need "acceptance" because I know I'm different and some won't understand or do understand and have issue with it and it's their right to do so..me forcing them to agree with me is just as ignorant as them forcing me to see things their way


----------



## Nimgoble

I've rather enjoyed this thread, up until the resurgence of the "what determines a person's sex/gender" argument.

Can we skip it, or start another thread to facilitate it, please?


----------



## tacotiklah

Nimgoble said:


> I've rather enjoyed this thread, up until the resurgence of the "what determines a person's sex/gender" argument.
> 
> Can we skip it, or start another thread to facilitate it, please?



While I feel that it fits under the discussion of LGBT, I agree here due to that fact that as I said in the OP; mods are watching the thread and flaming/etc will get this closed.

I agree to disagree and as such, you're right, I'm a crazy dude in a dress, so let's please move on.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Nimgoble said:


> I've rather enjoyed this thread, up until the resurgence of the "what determines a person's sex/gender" argument.
> 
> Can we skip it, or start another thread to facilitate it, please?



Well it's mainly the Dan Savage issue. My point being that Dan's not exactly the antichrist for having a view on bi/trans issues, nor is he wrong or bigoted. I'm always irked that in such situations those with the unpopular view are made villains.


----------



## Garrett

That is always whats thrown me for a loop. What exactly should constitute a woman or a man in the legal terms? Should it be if they have the correct genitalia? Ghstofperdition maybe if you could explain it the way you think of it.


----------



## GhostsofAcid

Garrett said:


> What exactly should constitute a woman or a man in the legal terms? Should it be if they have the correct genitalia? Ghstofperdition maybe if you could explain it the way you think of it.



That's actually a good question. How is gender legally defined in the US?


----------



## Jakke

Holy fuck! Not this again


----------



## highlordmugfug

Jakke said:


> Holy fuck! Not this again


In every goddamn thread


----------



## Guitarman700

Yup, I'm out. Have fun guys.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Lol...I dub this thread the Titanic.

But seriously debates shouldn't close a thread. If you can't voice your opinion without causing a massive shitstorm or if people can't discuss something like adults..they should be banned. It's not the thread's fault. It's the internet, don't take things seriously. This thread should be where people can ask questions and get answers and voice their experiences and opinions


----------



## Jakke

highlordmugfug said:


> In every goddamn thread



At least it's predictable...


----------



## highlordmugfug

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Lol...I dub this thread the Titanic.
> 
> But seriously debates shouldn't close a thread. If you can't voice your opinion without causing a massive shitstorm or if people can't discuss something like adults..they should be banned. It's not the thread's fault. It's the internet, don't take things seriously. This thread should be where people can ask questions and get answers and voice their experiences and opinions


I think me, Jakob, and Colin (and probably many others) are just tired of seeing that specific debate


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

highlordmugfug said:


> I think me, Jakob, and Colin (and probably many others) are just tired of seeing that specific debate



It's a rather popular debate..anytime LGBT issues are brought up you know some things are coming. I think it's better to open the dialogue up for people to honestly talk about it instead of just trying to sweep it under the bed everytime..that only makes people want to talk about it more.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well this answer varies greatly depending upon who you ask, but I feel this is probably the best answer:
How to Respect a Transgender Person: 9 steps - wikiHow
How To Respect A Transgender Person « Transgender Network Tampa

These both state that if I identify as female, that should be enough for you to call me female. Understand that due to the henry benjamin standards of care, there is so much red-tape and gate-keeping along with an insane amount of costs to get sex reassignment surgery along with other surgeries done, that SRS isn't realistic for some women, and quite frankly not all opt for it. Most Female-to-Male transsexuals do not get "bottom" surgery done because the technology just isn't there to make it happen. I don't see them as any less a guy because of it. If you dress and act a certain gender, I see you as that gender. What's in your pants is really none of my damned business. Just like there are some cismales that have had to have their junk removed because of cancer. Since they have no plan to transition, and identify still 100% as male, should I still call them a woman because there's no twig and berries there? In that case no, because they do not identify as female. Conversely if there is a Male-to-Female transsexual that can't afford surgery, does that make her still a man? To me, no. Others maybe. But the trans community and it's allies on the whole says no. I tend to believe them since psychology is at least partially backing this claim. I say partially because of the fact that not too many people go out of their way to study transsexualism, and as such I feel not enough research is being done on it.


Edit: I agree with Drak, ignoring the issue does as little good. However, where there's smoke, there's a fire not far off. Meh, if it makes you guys feel any better I'm not even mad when told I'm still man. I disagree, but I can't change people's minds if they're that convinced of what they believe. Even less so with an online forum where people probably like to say things to get a rise. I don't see that in drakkar's case, but for other's that may be the case. 
My whole thing is if we can't talk about transgenders in a thread where the T in LGBT mean transgender, then when/where is that exactly appropriate?
If you can have civil discourse on the subject, do so but if not, don't. That's my opinion on it. 

Edit 2: That said, I will never turn down a person that is asking a legitimate question about something they may not understand, and most particularly about this topic. If the question can't be answered on the forum, please pm it to me. If I'm a weirdo, it's because while most transpeople try to hide and blend in, I do kind of the opposite and am completely out and open about it. I feel that some people in the trans community have to take a hit and be out and open so that questions can be answer and that they can work to bridge people to it and help promote acceptance. Since I'm shitty at hiding it anyways, I may as well be one of those people.


----------



## Necris

ghstofperdition said:


> So my guess would be that Dan was one of the types saying that it's not a hetero relationship. Cool if you believe that, but then that shows a lack of acceptance for the concept of transgenderism. If that's how you roll, then fine, but be honest about what it is; bigotry. Scientists have been studying this for a while, and while a lot is not known, what is known is that trans is real and it is because that person really does have a brain that is wired to be of the sex opposite of what their body is. It's postulated that it occurs while in the womb, but as I've said it's just a guess. The fact remains that to successfully transition, your relationships have to transition too.


I think where Drak is coming from is what I've just taken to calling the "Genetic Argument". For example if a person is born with XY chromosomes no amount of surgery or HRT has any effect on that, their outer appearance changes but the chromosomes they were born with don't. It's technically not incorrect to say that but I personally don't believe that point of view on it's face is any justification for referring to a transgendered man as a woman or a transgendered woman as a man.
The existence of people born with the chromosomes of both genders although a somewhat rare occurrence also complicates things as well since if a person is born XXY the question becomes by what criteria do you judge how to correctly refer to that person, do you go by how they present themselves or by their genitals?


----------



## tacotiklah

Fair point and I'm glad that you brought up intersexism. I see it as an answer to the "judge by their genes" argument. Frankly, going by what they identify as seems the easiest and least offensive way to go about it. 

It's kinda like in the trans community where I see some of the more militant TS women rip on crossdressers because they aren't "real women". Hey if you wear a dress and tell me you are a female named Jane, then guess what? I'm gonna call you Jane and use feminine pronouns when I address you. It's not like I carry a microscope on me and test your genes to be certain, and I'm certainly not gonna subject you to crotch groping just to see if you really are what you say you are. As far as I'm concerned, if you say you're a chick named Jane, then to me you're a chick named Jane.

Edit: Also if I've known you forever as bob, but then you come to me as Jane, I'm gonna call you Jane. Why? It's called respect. When you care about someone, you show them respect. Not all people will do this, and that's fine. Be disrespectful then, since it's certainly your right. I see it no different as if a guy changed his name from Joe to Batman. If they changed their name to Batman, then as far as I'm concerned, that person is the motherfuckin' batman.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Necris said:


> I think where Drak is coming from is what I've just taken to calling the "Genetic Argument". For example if a person is born with XY chromosomes no amount of surgery or HRT has any effect on that, their outer appearance changes but the chromosomes they were born with don't. It's technically not incorrect to say that but I personally don't believe that point of view on it's face is any justification for referring to a transgendered man as a woman or a transgendered woman as a man.
> The existence of people born with the chromosomes of both genders although a somewhat rare occurrence also complicates things as well since if a person is born XXY the question becomes by what criteria do you judge how to correctly refer to that person, do you go by how they present themselves or by their genitals?



Did Michael Jackson convince people that he was a white person? No..people just thought he was nuts. There are people who undergo all kinds of surgeries to look a certain way, which is fine..but that doesn't change what they really are. My point is I have issue with that being discredited as if it makes no sense at all and those who agree are seen as bigots or gay bashers..following logic isn't bashing, it's just making sense of the world and you can't expect people to change that.

Is it outlandish to think that if you were born genetically male, and without alteration you'd live your life like a biological male, therefore your sex is male? No..it's just logic. If you're a genetic male and you change your outside to look like a female, does that change the inside? No..you're still a male. What you'd like to be called doesn't matter as that's not what I'm talking about. You're still a male as you would have been if you hadn't undergone things to resemble another sex, but even with the new look, you haven't changed whats going on inside. 

Now whether or not one agrees or not that's fine..however there are lots of people who just don't say that because it's not the "in" thing to say and they're seen as bashers and homophobes. Since I'm a gay man, and technically a transvestite, I have no "straight bias" nor am I a basher or anything of the sort, so when I voice my opinion I'm not doing it from some area of hate. I think that opinion needs to be expressed because often it's seen as the "wrong way of thinking" which to me is rather insulting.


----------



## Nimgoble

Necris said:


> I think where Drak is coming from is what I've just taken to calling the "Genetic Argument". For example if a person is born with XY chromosomes no amount of surgery or HRT has any effect on that, their outer appearance changes but the chromosomes they were born with don't. It's technically not incorrect to say that but I personally don't believe that point of view on it's face is any justification for referring to a transgendered man as a woman or a transgendered woman as a man.
> The existence of people born with the chromosomes of both genders although a somewhat rare occurrence also complicates things as well since if a person is born XXY the question becomes by what criteria do you judge how to correctly refer to that person, do you go by how they present themselves or by their genitals?



 Thank you.


----------



## tacotiklah

Guys. I need to tell you something. I'm batgirl. From now on, I'd like it if you all called me batgirl.







Seriously though, if a friend came to me and said this, I'd call them batgirl. I get what Drakkar is saying, but I see it as splitting hairs. He's coming from a genetic side, and I'm coming from the social side. Since life mainly consists of social interaction; then I see it as having prevalence. I'm coming at it from a practicality angle. Unless you have some sort of superman xray vision, you're just not gonna know for certain either way; you'd be forced to take a person's word for it. My personal choices is that even if I did know for certain, I care about that person enough that if I knew that they'd be hurt if I didn't call them by their preferred gender, I'd would avoid doing that. My personal opinion is that genes be damned, respect is king. You don't even have to agree with someone to show them respect. (part of how a civil discussion occurs.  )
Michael Jackson was crazy, and it had nothing to do with changing his skin color. It has everything to do with him not dealing with his shitty childhood and as such had strange young boys sleep in a bed with him. 
Different than transsexualism because plenty of TS/TGs have had awesome childhoods and no mental disorders, outside of gender dysphoria. Some people seem to make this out like it's a plague on the earth, but really it's not that common. Cisgenders outweigh us by a huge degree. It's one of those weird things that happen in nature that is hard to explain or account for. My hope is that with more time and better research, people can figure this out a bit better.


----------



## tacotiklah

Thought this would be a welcome change of topic, and I like how this really shows the hypocrisy of hatred for gays in the military...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Goddammit, who cares about the god particle?! ANDERSON COOPER IS OUT! 

CNN's Anderson Cooper confirms that he's gay - latimes.com

...If no one saw this coming, you have my condolences.


----------



## Jakke

^I have no idea who that is


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah we all kinda saw this coming, but I totally understand his reasons for not wanting to be completely out about it. Nobody wants their private life to seen as a gimmick to boost their career. Same reason I present as male whenever I do band related stuff. I want the focus to be solely on the music and not because the band has a t-girl bassist. 

Edit:
Jakke, Anderson Cooper is a pretty famous CNN news reporter. I kinda had an inkling that this was confirmed because he hangs out with Kathy Griffin. While I hate the use of the phrase, she kinda is something of a "fag hag".


----------



## Jakke

^Wise ma.. Woman wub


A successful swedish female alpine skiier "came out" a week ago (Anja Pärsson, she was one of the main rivals of Lindsay Vonn for a couple of years), and immeditately drew the ire of the gay community. Surpirsed? Her crime was apparently when she stated that she was not an activist, and did not want to be an icon, which apparently was terrible.

Am I the only who does not see the enourmous faux pas she did? Isn't it her own goddamm (that one was for you Freezing Moon) business was she does with her free time? She is already an enormous positive role-model, and has accomplished more than the people who are now hating on her


----------



## Guitarman700

Jakke said:


> ^Wise ma.. Woman wub
> 
> 
> A successful swedish female alpine skiier "came out" a week ago (Anja Pärsson, she was one of the main rivals of Lindsay Vonn for a couple of years), and immeditately drew the ire of the gay community. Surpirsed? Her crime was apparently when she stated that she was not an activist, and did not want to be an icon, which apparently was terrible.
> 
> Am I the only who does not see the enourmous faux pas she did? Isn't it her own goddamm (that one was for you Freezing Moon) business was she does with her free time? She is already an enormous positive role-model, and has accomplished more than the people who are now hating on her



I can't say I'm terribly surprised. The gay community in my town is extremely judgmental towards Bisexuals and transpeople. I still think it's bigotry, but some people disagree.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well most of the time (as you all have seen) I'm all for the activism thing and would gladly step up and stand up for gay rights. Usually that's when it comes to other people. However since this band is not exactly "my" band and I'm more of a hired gun than anything, I feel it would be a seriously douche move on my part to say/do anything that takes the focus off of these guys' hard work and effort.



Guitarman700 said:


> I can't say I'm terribly surprised. The gay community in my town is extremely judgmental towards Bisexuals and transpeople. I still think it's bigotry, but some people disagree.



Yep, I've gotten flak from straights, bis and gays equally over my trans status. It's just a reminder that while gay rights are improving, we have a ways to go. These things take a lot of time and effort. As I've been reminded a lot, the world still isn't all sunshine and rainbows, even in the gay community. It's kinda like when you and sibling go at it; you love each other to death, but don't always see eye to eye.


----------



## Jakke

With regards to my previous post. Can someone who is gay/bi/trans/etc explain the narrative of "coming out"? It seems almost mandatory, and I don't really see why it should be regarded as such. I mean, what does your environment have to do with your preferance? The most important thing should be that you know who you are, right?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Jakke said:


> With regards to my previous post. Can someone who is gay/bi/trans/etc explain the narrative of "coming out"? It seems almost mandatory, and I don't really see why it should be regarded as such. I mean, what does your environment have to do with your preferance? The most important thing should be that you know who you are, right?



Honestly it's blown into a huge deal when it really isn't. Lots of gay kids feel it's some important right of passage that must be done or else you'll never live a free life..and that idea is supported by most of the gay community.

For some coming out tells people who you are so they know and it's not something that you're hiding. For parents expecting you to have girlfriends and marry, etc they would now know it ain't happening. Friends would know and act accordingly, etc, etc. 

Honestly I don't think it's that big of a deal..most people you tell don't give a shit and the ones who flip out usually aren't the ones you need most in your life anyways. I always tell kids who ask me about that to just wait. Get some friends..a boyfriend or two, go to college, live your life, move out..experience the world and by then you should have had time to know if that's really what you want and all, so if you still feel the need to tell people then you'll have a support base for when/if it goes wrong and you'll understand exactly what you're doing.

Unfortunately many gay rights nuts see it as "betrayal" when a celebrity doesn't make their orientation known. It isn't anyone's business and they have a right to keep their personal lives to themselves. I hate when gay people keep this seething hatred for people who are in the closet..not living double lives mind you...just keeping to themselves.


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Honestly it's blown into a huge deal when it really isn't. Lots of gay kids feel it's some important right of passage that must be done or else you'll never live a free life..and that idea is supported by most of the gay community.
> 
> For some coming out tells people who you are so they know and it's not something that you're hiding. For parents expecting you to have girlfriends and marry, etc they would now know it ain't happening. Friends would know and act accordingly, etc, etc.
> 
> Honestly I don't think it's that big of a deal..most people you tell don't give a shit and the ones who flip out usually aren't the ones you need most in your life anyways. I always tell kids who ask me about that to just wait. Get some friends..a boyfriend or two, go to college, live your life, move out..experience the world and by then you should have had time to know if that's really what you want and all, so if you still feel the need to tell people then you'll have a support base for when/if it goes wrong and you'll understand exactly what you're doing.
> 
> Unfortunately many gay rights nuts see it as "betrayal" when a celebrity doesn't make their orientation known. It isn't anyone's business and they have a right to keep their personal lives to themselves. I hate when gay people keep this seething hatred for people who are in the closet..not living double lives mind you...just keeping to themselves.




I agree with most of this. For some people that are living with very oppressive parents, things get kinda dicey. They feel they need to be out so that they can date and live something of a normal life, but then by being out it opens up a world of shit for them. Some people have to be closeted or "down low". I get that.

If people ask my advice, I tend to tell them that if at all possible, come out. Hiding/lying about yourself tends to do more harm than good, but there are some situations where like Drak said, you have to keep it to yourself. There are times I should have done that, and didn't and now I get judged way more than before. So it all comes down to how well you know your situation and what to do in light of that knowledge.

I hate people that get offended by you not coming out. It's not your life, you haven't walked in that person's shoes, so butt the fuck out ya know?

Hell, if you go back some 30 pages on the Love and Relationships thread when I came out as bi I thought it was a huge deal and super scary. Outside of being kicked out of a semi-successful band, not a single person really cared. They were like "oh so you bang both dudes and chicks? Hey that's cool." Even started bringing guys around and they just shook their hand and became friendly with them. I count myself very fortunate.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

In my situation I would say I'm in the closet,nor would I say that I've really "come out", so to speak. I don't deny the fact that I am bisexual nor do I try to hide it, but I also am not extremely vocal about it. If it's relevant, such as right now in an LGBT discussion, I'll say it, but I don't exactly use it as a major part of my identity as it really isn't, and I don't want it to. Think of how Anderson Cooper felt about his sexuality, actually. Of course, if you want to make it a big deal, who am I to judge?


----------



## tacotiklah

Well one of the intentions of this thread is if you wanna come out in some small way where people aren't gonna judge you, this thread would be it. 

I also understand that if people wanna stay downlow, then that's cool too. I don't doubt groph was right when he said half the forumers here are LGBT.


----------



## idunno

I had a girl put makeup on me. I kinda liked it. Feel like this is the place to put it haha


----------



## tacotiklah

Nice! Yes crossdressers are welcome here since they fall under the transgender umbrella.


----------



## The Uncreator

ghstofperdition said:


> Well one of the intentions of this thread is if you wanna come out in some small way where people aren't gonna judge you, this thread would be it.
> 
> I also understand that if people wanna stay downlow, then that's cool too. I don't doubt groph was right when he said half the forumers here are LGBT.



Despite not falling into that category, I think that would be an awesome fact about this site. Diversity like that is just interesting, imagine if everyone here was the same typical guitar guy


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

Like many on here, I'm not gay myself, but I support all of this stuff. I have many gay/bisexual/lesbian friends, and heck, even one pansexual friend!

Funny story - I was hanging out with my girlfriend who realized she's basically a lesbian and I'm the one exception. So while that still makes her technically bisexual, she's said I'm the last guy she'll ever date, for one reason or another. I can understand why hahaha  

But her way of informing me she was bisexual was probably the funniest way someone could ever come out. We were standing outside the school theater, and we saw our friend Autumn, and we both agreed she's adorable, and she the said, completely seriously "I'd tap that." Upon asking if she was serious, she said yes. Needless to say, that was one of the funniest things that happened to me that day. 

Also, I've now discovered that out of the 5 girls I've dated, 3 (including my current gf) are bi. EG seems to be "Bisexuals everywhere."

Seriously, *EVERYWHERE.*


----------



## tacotiklah

Zeno said:


> Like many on here, I'm not gay myself, but I support all of this stuff. I have many gay/bisexual/lesbian friends, and heck, even one pansexual friend!
> 
> Funny story - I was hanging out with my girlfriend who realized she's basically a lesbian and I'm the one exception. So while that still makes her technically bisexual, she's said I'm the last guy she'll ever date, for one reason or another. I can understand why hahaha
> 
> But her way of informing me she was bisexual was probably the funniest way someone could ever come out. We were standing outside the school theater, and we saw our friend Autumn, and we both agreed she's adorable, and she the said, completely seriously "I'd tap that." Upon asking if she was serious, she said yes. Needless to say, that was one of the funniest things that happened to me that day.
> 
> Also, I've now discovered that out of the 5 girls I've dated, 3 (including my current gf) are bi. EG seems to be "Bisexuals everywhere."
> 
> Seriously, *EVERYWHERE.*



Well if Kinsey's research is anything to go by, then sexuality is on a sliding scale between straight and gay. And according to it, only 30% of people are exclusively straight or exclusively gay.

I dunno how this relates to the population as a whole, but I believe there are a LOT more bis out there that are downlow. Perhaps in the next decade or so they can feel comfortable enough to come out...


----------



## Varcolac

ghstofperdition said:


> Nice! Yes crossdressers are welcome here since they fall under the transgender umbrella.



And why can't men just wear makeup without being crossdressers? Stop with your patriarchal heteronormativity!


----------



## tacotiklah

Varcolac said:


> And why can't men just wear makeup without being crossdressers? Stop with your patriarchal heteronormativity!



Not sure if serious or not, but really?
You say it like crossdressing is a dirty word. From a societal point of view, men wearing cosmetics is considered crossdressing. There is absolutely nothing wrong in my mind with this. (for obvious reasons, since I'm TG/TS)

My point was to welcome him here into the thread and you come off as hyper offended over nothing. Honestly if the guy was offended, let him speak for himself. If perhaps this is a hobby of yours and hence why you got offended, understand that I'm not trying to offend, but rather welcome both of you into the fold. If neither, then why the indignation?

Crossdressing/ers has/have always been part of the transgender community and it doesn't mean you're not straight; in fact it has nothing to do with your sexuality at all. 

As for the word "heteronormativity", not sure exactly wtf you mean there since I've been trying to look up the word and merriam-websters along with other dictionary sites have no clue what that word means either.
So I have no choice to assume that when used in conjunction with patriarchal, that you mean that I'm somehow bashing the guy's gender and/or sexuality or that I'm coming off as condescending about it. Neither are the case. Rather I was trying to explain that there is a term for it and what he feels is perfectly natural and "normal". Some people (like Drakkar for instance) do drag and CDing as a hobby. This makes them no less of a man or a person at all.


tl;dr:
Why the butthurt over something I wasn't doing to someone that isn't you? Let people speak for themselves if they are offended. This isn't the first time people have tried accusing me of dumb shit like this and frankly it's kinda old. I work my fingers to the bone to help people; both LGBT and their straight allies. Can we stop having pissing contests over nothing since all it will serve is to close an otherwise great thread? 


Edit: Re-reading, apparently you have the same line of thinking that many men have. (ironically some of them also have self-apply the label of cross-dresser, so I don't get the line of reasoning of "don't label me" and then identify as "crossdresser") It comes down to labels. If I offended with this, then again I apologize. But I feel that it's kinda lame to be mad over having the label of crossdresser as if there was something wrong with it. Wear wtf you want and be happy about it. That was my whole point. 
But let's have a 3rd party take a look at the definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crossdressing



> *cross&#8211;dress·ing*
> 
> _noun_ \&#712;kro&#775;s-&#716;dre-si&#331;\
> 
> 
> *Definition of CROSS-DRESSING*
> 
> *:* the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex
> 
> &#8212; *cross&#8211;dress* _intransitive verb_
> &#8212; *cross&#8211;dress·er* _noun_



I don't know of many cosmetics outside of stage makeup that is designed for male use. And for the umpteenth time, there is nothing wrong with liking this. I welcome and support those that do it and enjoy it. Where's the argument and contention with that?


----------



## Guitarman700

He's being facetious.


----------



## tacotiklah

Guitarman700 said:


> He's being facetious.



Gotcha. Unfortunately, I encounter many people that aren't and come at me sideways over things like this. The memory of being called a bigot is still fresh in my mind.


----------



## Varcolac

Correct. I'm being facetious, to an extent.

Heteronormativity is exactly what it says on the tin: the idea of the heterosexual gender binary being 'normal': makeup is for ladies, power tools are for men. Girls play with Barbie. Boys play with GI Joe. 'The patriarchy' is male-dominated discourse and influence that to a significant extent excludes non-heteronormative points of view: gay, bi, queer, camp, butch, anything that's not manly men and girly girls. Count the non-manly men and non-girly girls on TV that aren't played for laughs.

My point, such as it was, and such as is possible to make in a single-line thread, is that men should be free to wear makeup without saying that they're venturing into women's territory, which your definition of cross-dressing makes explicit.

I'm not sure where you get my supposed level of offence or my opinion of cross-dressing as a 'dirty word' from. As mentioned, I'm being facetious, and typed those words without any malice intended. I do however see real problems with such a simple gender binary. Is all make-up really the province of women alone? I've worn eye-liner on a night out (not hallowe'en). A friend of mine wore concaler through his teens to disguise terrible acne. Are we 'cross-curious'? Cross-dressing is a community, not one that I'm particularly familiar with, and it'd certainly not be my place to say whether someone belongs to it. That's not anyone's call to make but theirs. 

Essentially I support the rights of men to wear eyeliner and women to use power tools* without any impact on the interpretation of their gender, preference, community membership or ability to use the barbecue or arrange flowers.#











*Purely facetious examples for the sake of humour. More accurately I should say 'the right of anyone to do anything legal, regardless of the contents of their pants, placing on or off the Kinsey scale, or membership of any social group, without assumptions being made about the contents of their pants, placing on or off the Kinsey scale, or membership of any social group.

#Facetious examples of 'man's work' and 'woman's work.' See above.


----------



## tacotiklah

^ Fair enough. I apologize for my haste in placing a label to idunno then.


----------



## tacotiklah

Bumping for awesome news for transgender people. This is a really big victory for us:

Transgender people no longer considered "mentally ill" to American Psychiatric Association | Articles | dot429


----------



## Waelstrum

I thought that the trans community were promoting the idea that it is a condition of some sort (be it mental, physical, or genetic, I'm not sure). Not that you'd call it an illness as such, but a measurable difference between trans people and cis people. I'm not sure what you'd call it if not a condition/illness. (Like how I know someone with mild Asperger's Syndrome but doesn't consider it an illness, rather a different mind set.) I think you even called it gender dysphoria (or something) in one of these threads.

(I tried to word this post as PC as I could, if any offence is cause I apologise in advance.)

EDIT: I read the article, and it seemed to answer my question. By calling it Gender Dysphoria as opposed to Gender Identity Disorder, you remove the connotation that it is a problem, rather than something that simply is (although, I guess it is a problem to anyone who has it, in terms of stigma and the hassle of transitioning), which has some good legal implications to do with custody and what not. Is that about right?


----------



## The Reverend

Is it homophobic if my roommate goes on a rant because the Alan Scott Green Lantern is gay now? He doesn't even like that one, he likes the Hal Jordan GL, but is dismayed because people will think his childhood idol is gay.

I think I answered my own question, but still. 

Also, props on no longer being considered mentally ill.


----------



## tacotiklah

Waelstrum said:


> I thought that the trans community were promoting the idea that it is a condition of some sort (be it mental, physical, or genetic, I'm not sure). Not that you'd call it an illness as such, but a measurable difference between trans people and cis people. I'm not sure what you'd call it if not a condition/illness. (Like how I know someone with mild Asperger's Syndrome but doesn't consider it an illness, rather a different mind set.) I think you even called it gender dysphoria (or something) in one of these threads.
> 
> (I tried to word this post as PC as I could, if any offence is cause I apologise in advance.)
> 
> EDIT: I read the article, and it seemed to answer my question. By calling it Gender Dysphoria as opposed to Gender Identity Disorder, you remove the connotation that it is a problem, rather than something that simply is (although, I guess it is a problem to anyone who has it, in terms of stigma and the hassle of transitioning), which has some good legal implications to do with custody and what not. Is that about right?



Yep. And not every transperson has gender dysphoria. That's actually more related to transsexualism as opposed to other identities that falls under the transgender umbrella. For instance, crossdressers do not have any kind of gender dysphoria, and just simply like the clothing/fashion. Others consider themselves a mixture of both genders, or identify as having no gender identity at all. None of them have any significant form of gender dysphoria. So plenty of people were being lumped in as crazy, and people would of course exploit that and make life hell for them. Plus this is a big step forward with a lot of benefits for transpeople. For one, it destroys the very common stereotype that we're crazy and attention seeking. It in that sense reinforces what we've been saying all along; that while our gender identity doesn't quite match our anatomic sex, we're still essentially regular human beings and live normal lives. People have been exposed to the harmful stereotype that we're batshit insane for so long, that trying to undo that damage has been a real battle.



The Reverend said:


> Is it homophobic if my roommate goes on a rant because the Alan Scott Green Lantern is gay now? He doesn't even like that one, he likes the Hal Jordan GL, but is dismayed because people will think his childhood idol is gay.
> 
> I think I answered my own question, but still.
> 
> Also, props on no longer being considered mentally ill.



Yes because it shouldn't matter who anyone sleeps with. I'd actually be much more suspicious of your roommate because of the fact that he feels that someone else's sexuality will somehow affect his. People that are really straight and are comfortable with their sexuality would never have this thought cross their mind.


----------



## Brill

I'm okay with non-straight people 9its quicker to say it that way)... all of my friends are Gay/bi/lesbian (I don't have many friends, and I attract weird people(Not saying that gay/bi/lesbians are werid...)).
I think Lesbians are the best types of women... And its funny because I am attracted to all of my lesbians friends (Manly women are the best women xD)


----------



## tm20

hi gay and lesbian people. i'm currently doing a short report on whether homosexuality is genetically or environmentally determined. so far i've done a fair bit of research which suggests it maybe genetic, but it will be interesting to get your thoughts  btw while in Cusco, we were told that the rainbow flag is actually the flag of the state of Cusco but apparently the gays took it and used it for themselves XD


----------



## The Reverend

tm20 said:


> hi gay and lesbian people. i'm currently doing a short report on whether homosexuality is genetically or environmentally determined. so far i've done a fair bit of research which suggests it maybe genetic, but it will be interesting to get your thoughts  btw while in Cusco, we were told that the rainbow flag is actually the flag of the state of Cusco but apparently the gays took it and used it for themselves XD



It's okay to admit that your state's tastes run counter to the majority's. We don't judge on this board.


----------



## tm20

i would've thought the flag of cusco would have some sort of copyright on it so i was surprised to hear the gay community simply just used it for themselves. the people in cusco are really nice anyway so they probably don't care


----------



## tacotiklah

My nose detects trolling here. Just saying.


----------



## The Uncreator

Well, all gays and lesbian are clearly out to usurp Peru. By 'stealing' there flag, it is a public display of the dominance they wish to assert.


Anyway....


----------



## tm20

you people think im trolling here?  alright i'll just leave


----------



## flint757

Because the whole nature vs nurture thing in terms of sexuality is already been defined (as you already said, genetics). Bringing it up can be perceived as if you are either not aware (which you are) or sarcastic. That and the bit about the flag. 

If you are quite serious why/ for what are you writing a paper?


----------



## tacotiklah

flint757 said:


> Because the whole nature vs nurture thing in terms of sexuality is already been defined (as you already said, genetics). Bringing it up can be perceived as if you are either not aware (which you are) or sarcastic. That and the bit about the flag.
> 
> If you are quite serious why/ for what are you writing a paper?



This. It's believed to be a mixture of both genetics and social factors. I was all fine and dandy with that particular debate, but the flag thing is what sent my ambiguously gay spidey senses off.


----------



## troyguitar

Related to the Varcolac thing: If women can wear men's clothing and/or not wear makeup and not be considered to be cross-dressing, then men should be able to wear women's clothing and/or makeup.

It's fucking bullshit that women can just take over every type of fashion and be 'normal' but men basically cannot wear anything interesting without a lot of negative judgement.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

...can we stop with this "homophobic" thing? I've come to hate that term and it's gets thrown around so often that it loses what nonsensical meaning it had in the first place. They aren't afraid of gays..they have issue with various things regarding homosexuality..it could be just femininity or the act of gay sex, either way no ones afraid..just not in support.


----------



## Jakke

^Agreed. In the words of a swedish satirist (this was on the issue of "islamophobia"):
You could have a phobia for water. Spiders you could have a phobia for. But muslims? Has anyone ever stood a chair, screaming for someone to remove the muslim crawling on the floor with a cup and a piece of paper?


The ending -phobia when it comes to people is the adult version of the common schoolyard "you hate me because you're jelous" IMO. People don't always hate for rational reasons, claiming that they do it because they are afraid is dodging the issue. By definition a phobia is an irrational fear, there is no way to keep someone from developing an irrational fear, because it is not a rational response. Thus labeling it "homophobia" is saying that there is nothing that can be done to prevent hate against this group.


----------



## flint757

So bigots it is then.


----------



## tacotiklah

Jakke said:


> ^Agreed. In the words of a swedish satirist (this was on the issue of "islamophobia"):
> You could have a phobia for water. Spiders you could have a phobia for.* But muslims? Has anyone ever stood a chair, screaming for someone to remove the muslim crawling on the floor with a cup and a piece of paper?*
> 
> 
> The ending -phobia when it comes to people is the adult version of the common schoolyard "you hate me because you're jelous" IMO. People don't always hate for rational reasons, claiming that they do it because they are afraid is dodging the issue. By definition a phobia is an irrational fear, there is no way to keep someone from developing an irrational fear, because it is not a rational response. Thus labeling it "homophobia" is saying that there is nothing that can be done to prevent hate against this group.



Spend some time with the fundies here in America and I guarantee you more than a few of them would, sadly enough. 

I get what you guys are saying though. But I see people that act like it will somehow affect them or their sexuality or cause a massive plague of HIV because gay people wanna have a right to exist. I would call that irrational fear, hence I see homophobia as being applicable. But I feel that if there's no irrational fear present, then bigotry would suffice. I have no love for people that belittle LGBTs, but it's their opinion so w/e. Where I have a major problem is when they try to legislate that bigotry or fund people that do and then try to hide behind "religious beliefs". Sorry but at that point you're actively fucking with lives of people for no reason and you need to be called out on it. But for the opinion itself? Nah, I will just stop talking to you and ignore you, but won't work towards censoring you. 

This is the double-edged sword of freedom of speech I guess, and there is no law that says people shouldn't have to be offended. But if they exercise their right to put myself or other people down, then I have the right to express my dislike for what was said.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The issue with that is it seems anyone who isn't gay friendly is considered a "homophobe" or "bigot". No one has to like gay people, or approve of what gay people do. Doesn't make them evil, hate filled monsters like so many gay rights groups try to turn them into. Everyone has an opinion and their opinions aren't any less valid. I'm not for demonizing a group of people just because they don't think the same thing I do...the whole Chik-Fil-A thing comes to mind currently. I actually kinda feel sorry for that damn company.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

The world needs more people like you, Drak.

Chick Fil-A are kind of dicks though imo


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Captain Shoggoth said:


> The world needs more people like you, Drak.
> 
> Chick Fil-A are kind of dicks though imo



They might be..but this whole "CHIK-FIL-A IS TRYING TEH DO TEH GAY GENOCIDEZ!" nonsense is blowing way out of proportion..they don't agree with same sex marriage..so what? If they were for it, and donated money to help no one would bat an eyelash.


----------



## flint757

My thing is for change to actually occur it requires some coercion. Making anti-gay stances seem bad socially and financially is honestly the only way things will change at a pace faster than waiting for entire generations to die off. 

At the same time I do think they are being treated unfairly as they weren't broadcasting their opinion until people started asking (forced them to answer basically). Makes no difference to me though. I can live without Chick Fil-A and I'm not intending to support companies who think it is okay to legislate others personal lives even if they aren't being dicks about it.


----------



## Nimgoble

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They might be..but this whole "CHIK-FIL-A IS TRYING TEH DO TEH GAY GENOCIDEZ!" nonsense is blowing way out of proportion..they don't agree with same sex marriage..so what?



You're right. We probably shouldn't boycott them, thus allowing them to donate more money to anti-gay groups.



> If they were for it, and donated money to help no one would bat an eyelash.



Ya think? Probably because then they WOULDN'T be a corporation run by bigots. Bigots that are trying to deny a group of people a certain amount of rights.


----------



## Jakke

Just watched "Prayers For Bobby". Even though sentimental, quite powerful stuff. Manly as I am, I admit to a brief moment of choked upedness lol. Sigourney weaver is great in it.

It's about Mary Griffith, gay rights activist. She was a fundamentalist christian, and her zeal and constant condemnation drove her gay son (Bobby) to kill himself. She then grew to become a fighter for gay rights when she realized her ignorance cost her her boy.
The apologetics in the movie feels a bit forced, but otherwise, strongly recommend it.


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They might be..but this whole "CHIK-FIL-A IS TRYING TEH DO TEH GAY GENOCIDEZ!" nonsense is blowing way out of proportion..they don't agree with same sex marriage..so what? If they were for it, and donated money to help no one would bat an eyelash.



Well where people have a problem is that they did more than just talk; they were funding money to groups that lobby against gay rights. If they were just talk, I'd still probably eat somewhere else and leave it at that. But since there was literal action being taken against gay people, it's a different story. By all means have your opinion, but when people are actually working and being active against the rights of other people, then it becomes a real problem for me. Apparently others share my same sentiments.
Keep in mind that many of these same people went batshit insane over and organized boycotts over Oreo and General Mills because said companies produced rainbow oreos and *insert rainbow colored product* in support of gay rights. But the minute a company DOES share their negative views, suddenly it's horrible to protest things. That reeks of hypocritical bullshit on my end.

Oh and speaking of which, here of course is the republican favorite female doing what she does best:
Sarah Palin Went to Chick-fil-A Just To Let Everyone Know She Hates Gay People

I'll let people draw their own conclusions here, but as for me, this stinks of using the struggles of other people for political gain. So to Sarah Palin;


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Nimgoble said:


> You're right. We probably shouldn't boycott them, thus allowing them to donate more money to anti-gay groups.
> 
> 
> 
> Ya think? Probably because then they WOULDN'T be a corporation run by bigots. Bigots that are trying to deny a group of people a certain amount of rights.



It's their money..they can do that they want. For the record..Anti-gay is rather strong. The company isn't trying to eradicate gays from the planet..they just don't feel marriage involves members of the same sex..which I'm fine with. Bigots because of their religious belief? It seems more are intolerant towards them than the other way around.

I strongly advise the people throwing such terms, to be careful..so far the only people I see spewing hate are the ones against Chik-Fil-A. They're a christianity based company, sticking to their beliefs in a time where it's not in fashion to do so and for that I actually commend them. I don't think they should be harassed and labeled certain things for simply doing what they feel is right. They aren't wishing harm anyone, calling anyone names, slandering anyone or rejoicing in the pain/misfortunes of others, yet many against them are doing all those things..I don't see that company as the monster here.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> Well where people have a problem is that they did more than just talk; they were funding money to groups that lobby against gay rights. If they were just talk, I'd still probably eat somewhere else and leave it at that. But since there was literal action being taken against gay people, it's a different story. By all means have your opinion, but when people are actually working and being active against the rights of other people, then it becomes a real problem for me. Apparently others share my same sentiments.
> Keep in mind that many of these same people went batshit insane over and organized boycotts over Oreo and General Mills because said companies produced rainbow oreos and *insert rainbow colored product* in support of gay rights. But the minute a company DOES share their negative views, suddenly it's horrible to protest things. That reeks of hypocritical bullshit on my end.
> 
> Oh and speaking of which, here of course is the republican favorite female doing what she does best:
> Sarah Palin Went to Chick-fil-A Just To Let Everyone Know She Hates Gay People
> 
> I'll let people draw their own conclusions here, but as for me, this stinks of using the struggles of other people for political gain. So to Sarah Palin;



And this is what I mean. They don't feel same sex marriage is right..they aren't against "gay rights". If you took away the marriage label and were given all the same things I'm sure they'd have no issue. It's not that they want gays to die off or be reduced to slaves..they just don't feel they should be given the label of marriage due to their religion. I think many pro-gay people choose their words for more sensationalism and to be honest I'm rather tired of it. They aren't anti-gay or against gay rights..they are against the label of marriage being given to a union their religion deems wrong. They aren't hate-filled monsters, but since the bible does clearly state that homosexuality is wrong, and they are christian, they don't feel something as "holy" (har har..but still) as marriage should be given to something they feel is wrong. Even that "Sarah Palin hates gays..cause she went to Chik-Fil-A" thing is childish, stupid, ignorant, narrow minded and exactly what I'm talking about. 

These groups don't get my support using hotbutton word witchcraft to rile people up to join them. In America we all have different opinions, some Christian, some not..you don't get to force people to go along with you just because you feel you're right. I don't agree with Christianity but I'll sure as hell defend their right to their beliefs because I feel I have the right to defend my own as well..and no one should be forced to back down on something they truly feel is right..ESPECIALLY if they aren't actually hurting anyone in the process. You don't like that the company funds groups against gay marriage? So what? Don't eat there..but ranting and raving as if they're in league with Hitler is just silly.


----------



## flint757

All ghst did was express her opinion and spread the word about what she found out (as you did as well) which is arguably no different than what your defending Christian's for. I do have to admit I find it odd because Christian's would not defend your right for the same or even your faith for that matter so props for being objective, but it isn't really in your favor.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

flint757 said:


> All ghst did was express her opinion and spread the word about what she found out (as you did as well) which is arguably no different than what your defending Christian's for. I do have to admit I find it odd because Christian's would not defend your right for the same or even your faith for that matter so props for being objective, but it isn't really in your favor.



I'm not attacking ghst..I'm going in on the article which is CLEARLY written for certain group of people.and the overall idea that anyone who opposes gay marriage is evil. Whether or not Christians defend me isn't the issue. I agree, I'm sure most wouldn't..but honestly they shouldn't have to, and THAT is my point. No one has to like what I do/stand for..you just shouldn't try to hurt me for it. I don't agree with various types of people but I'm not in the business of trying to "ruin" them because I don't like what they have to say. Tolerance doesn't mean you like someone, it means you put up with them and give them at least enough respect to leave them be as long as they aren't directly bothering you. It often seems tolerance turned into assimilation somewhere along the way and those that must be tolerant must also be supportive or risk being demonized. Honestly because I'm black/gay/satanist/whatever I do see the outside perspective, but I also see the other side's point. I think often people go too far left or right and forget that usually the answer/solution is somewhere in the middle.


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm not attacking ghst..I'm going in on the article which is CLEARLY written for certain group of people.and the overall idea that anyone who opposes gay marriage is evil. Whether or not Christians defend me isn't the issue. I agree, I'm sure most wouldn't..but honestly they shouldn't have to, and THAT is my point. No one has to like what I do/stand for..you just shouldn't try to hurt me for it. I don't agree with various types of people but I'm not in the business of trying to "ruin" them because I don't like what they have to say. Tolerance doesn't mean you like someone, it means you put up with them and give them at least enough respect to leave them be as long as they aren't directly bothering you. It often seems tolerance turned into assimilation somewhere along the way and those that must be tolerant must also be supportive or risk being demonized. Honestly because I'm black/gay/satanist/whatever I do see the outside perspective, but I also see the other side's point. I think often people go too far left or right and forget that usually the answer/solution is somewhere in the middle.



It's funny because I'm agreeing with most of what you're saying, but it's coming across as if you don't think so. 
Trying to keep me from having the same rights as anyone else is where I have beef with them. If they stopped doing this, I'd have no problem. Honestly, when I see atheists knocking christians and going crazy about it, I tell them to knock that shit off too. It's common civility and all. I know the argument (much like myself) goes both ways. The fact of the matter is that when it stops being an opinion and moves further into encroaching on either side's territory that I have a problem. If people started legislating against christians and other religious groups and passing all kinds of ridiculous laws persecuting them, you can believe that I'd be there backing them. But it's the other way around this time. 

Honestly I'd love for people to co-exist in peace and I do endeavor to try and bring that about, but you and I both know that is not the kind of world we live in. The best we can do is let people have their opinions, but not go out of their way to start shit. Quite a few people see LGBTs starting shit with Chik-Fil-A, but totally ignore the other side's multiple transgressions. If you think about it, the American Revolution was sparked by having to pay extra taxes. In hindsight, what was done was far less than half the shit we face from the government, but because things have been building up for a while, the dumbest shit can be what makes people finally snap. I see this thing with Chik Fil A as being a part of that catalyst.

Battle lines are being drawn and sides are being chosen. I would not have picked a chicken sandwich to be the spark for things, but I knew that something would have been what's pissed people off to the point that shit gets real. I see this as going further and further down hill.

Now where it becomes more of my opinion than anything and is not directed at any one person:
I do see this as a fight for civil rights. Whether or not this offends people, that's up to them. But LGBTs have been crapped on for far too long and are tired of it. Granted we've had some great victories and all, but for quite a while it's been feeling like 1 step forward, 2 steps back. Why do I see this as a fight for civil rights? Because LGBTs are treat as second class. If out and open they can be fired at will, can be discriminated against when it comes to finding gainful employment/housing/schooling/etc., and are denied the same rights and privileges as heterosexuals. And yes, LGBTs are fucking beaten and killed for being LGBT. I cannot post grotesque shit on here, but google will of course back my claims if you wanna look it up. Granted some have it easier than others (and I don't knock them for it. I'm actually quite glad that they didn't have to suffer in coming out or for being who they are), but to deny that there is a war being waged on gays, bis, lesbians, and transgenders is in my mind, being like an ostrich with your head in the sand. History has not been kind to those that are bigots and I do not see that changing anytime soon. In 40 years when I'm almost on my deathbed, I know that the open discrimination we see today will be so small compared to how it is now. That's a future that I work for and will continue to work for. 

The world we live in is a shithole. It's one of our own making, but a shithole it remains. We are over 7 billion strong and growing. We all have a right to exist and to try to make something of our lives. I dgaf if you're black/white/green/polka-dot/gay/trans/batman/Liza Manelli, you have a right to exist and to do so without everyone else trying to rub you out or legislate against you without damn good cause. Who you fuck, or what gender you present as is not good cause. By all means have your opinion, but when you take it beyond that and get physical or actually try to block the legitimate rights of others, then there is a serious problem. 

tl;dr version:
Say what you want, but get violent with me or actually try to keep me from having the same legal rights as others and I will begin to push back.


Edit:
Speaking of the chik fil a thing, here's some nice info on it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...versy_n_1719359.html?ref=topbar#slide=1152760

Note that when you scroll down you see 25 businesses that are, were, or there had been plans to be boycott(ed) because they took a pro-LGBT stance. Know what's funny? They all failed miserably. Know what's sad? Many of the same people that think it's wrong to boycott Chik Fil A over their stances were among the first to boycott these other companies for the same thing. So what's with the double standard here? The great thing about capitalism (you know, the thing a lot of these anti-gay rights groups/people profess an unwavering love for) is that there are plenty of times where people can vote with their wallet. And in very rare occasions; those votes really do count. This is one of those times. Dan Cathy has sunk his company because he sided with an unpopular view. This comment on the article put it very nicely:


> True, people are standing up for Dan Cathy, but they need to realize that Chick-Fil-A is Rome, and Dan's playing the role of Nero. The businesses that support LGBT are succeeding while the ones that come out against it are not. It's because of differing stances in each group. Many LGBT people (if not all) and the ones who support them would shop or eat at places that stand up for those rights. The BIG misfire is the assumption that all religious people will hear this interview and this "YAY! CHICKEN FOR THE DAY!" That's lethally not true. Many people are religious (even in religions that don't usually tolerate gays) and support gay rights, which means you fracture the market more than you think (and considering the amount who support gay rights around the country now, you fragmented more than half your market even before getting into the religious aspect), and the end result is a group of customers nowhere near enough to support the weight of a crashing-down national brand. Dan Cathy made the single worst business move he could do, and the cost will be Chick-Fil-A's future. This fall may possibly make Chichi's fall from grace look second-rate.



The problem here is that christianity is that it's one of the most fragmented and divided faiths out there. It makes the subgenres of metal look like greasy kids stuff. Dan Cathy took a stance that appealed to a small group of them. The rest are sitting there with their faces buried in their palms.


----------



## Nimgoble

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's their money..they can do that they want. For the record..Anti-gay is rather strong. The company isn't trying to eradicate gays from the planet..they just don't feel marriage involves members of the same sex..which I'm fine with. Bigots because of their religious belief? It seems more are intolerant towards them than the other way around.
> 
> I strongly advise the people throwing such terms, to be careful..so far the only people I see spewing hate are the ones against Chik-Fil-A. They're a christianity based company, sticking to their beliefs in a time where it's not in fashion to do so and for that I actually commend them. I don't think they should be harassed and labeled certain things for simply doing what they feel is right. They aren't wishing harm anyone, calling anyone names, slandering anyone or rejoicing in the pain/misfortunes of others, yet many against them are doing all those things..I don't see that company as the monster here.



Let's put it this way, then:

The time period is just before the Civil Rights Movement. Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches donates $2 million to groups that are actively trying to keep black people from obtaining equal rights. Black people find out about said donations and Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches' stance on the issue of black people having equal rights, and so they decide to stop buying chicken sandwiches from Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches. They also encourage anyone who sympathizes with their plight to stop buying food from Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches, seeing as how doing so is detrimental to black people obtaining equal rights.

You know what? You're right. I can clearly see how the black people and their sympathizers are the bigots here. Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches are doing nothing but expressing their opinion... through money... to groups that are actively trying to deny rights to said black people. I mean, that doesn't make them the aggressors in this situation, does it? It's okay because Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches are just sticking by their beliefs in a time where it's not fashionable to do so! Pooooooooor Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches.


----------



## flint757

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm not attacking ghst..I'm going in on the article which is CLEARLY written for certain group of people.and the overall idea that anyone who opposes gay marriage is evil. Whether or not Christians defend me isn't the issue. I agree, I'm sure most wouldn't..but honestly they shouldn't have to, and THAT is my point. No one has to like what I do/stand for..you just shouldn't try to hurt me for it. I don't agree with various types of people but I'm not in the business of trying to "ruin" them because I don't like what they have to say. Tolerance doesn't mean you like someone, it means you put up with them and give them at least enough respect to leave them be as long as they aren't directly bothering you. It often seems tolerance turned into assimilation somewhere along the way and those that must be tolerant must also be supportive or risk being demonized. Honestly because I'm black/gay/satanist/whatever I do see the outside perspective, but I also see the other side's point. I think often people go too far left or right and forget that usually the answer/solution is somewhere in the middle.



Your missing the key point that ghst touched on, I don't care about their opinion at ALL. I care that they take their profits and then fund money to organizations that are trying very hard to prevent others from doing completely harmless things. Since religious differences can maybe justify some peoples belief, lets not call them bigots, but assholes instead for trying to force their point of view on others. No one wants to ruin them for their opinion (well most people at least), it is for their active support at trying to legislate their opinion that does not afford more freedom to others, but less.



Nimgoble said:


> Let's put it this way, then:
> 
> The time period is just before the Civil Rights Movement. Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches donates $2 million to groups that are actively trying to keep black people from obtaining equal rights. Black people find out about said donations and Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches' stance on the issue of black people having equal rights, and so they decide to stop buying chicken sandwiches from Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches. They also encourage anyone who sympathizes with their plight to stop buying food from Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches, seeing as how doing so is detrimental to black people obtaining equal rights.
> 
> You know what? You're right. I can clearly see how the black people and their sympathizers are the bigots here. Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches are doing nothing but expressing their opinion... through money... to groups that are actively trying to deny rights to said black people. I mean, that doesn't make them the aggressors in this situation, does it? It's okay because Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches are just sticking by their beliefs in a time where it's not fashionable to do so! Pooooooooor Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches.



While the analogy is clunky it makes a completely valid point. I laughed so hard at Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches. I could hear that in a commercial so easily.


----------



## Nimgoble

flint757 said:


> While the analogy is clunky it makes a completely valid point. I laughed so hard at Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches. I could hear that in a commercial so easily.



ABSOLUTELY clunky.  The crux of this problem is Chick-Fil-A's donations to groups that are actively trying to deny gay people equal rights. I respect their right to hold their opinions. And if they were benign, there wouldn't be this much of an uproar(I don't think).


----------



## troyguitar

I would eat at Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches.

The whole issue with this crap is an old and simple one: Christians are too fucking stupid to understand that state marriage and religious marriage are not the same. One can go down to city hall and get a marriage license without ever setting foot in a church. One can also go have a huge wedding in a church and never go get a marriage license. They are completely separate operations which have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Nothing. At. All.

Should the state-issued marriage license have a different name like civil union (for ALL couples, not just gays)? Yes, that might help out the idiot Christians to be less confused.


----------



## tacotiklah

troyguitar said:


> I would eat at Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches.
> 
> The whole issue with this crap is an old and simple one: Christians are too fucking stupid to understand that state marriage and religious marriage are not the same. One can go down to city hall and get a marriage license without ever setting foot in a church. One can also go have a huge wedding in a church and never go get a marriage license. They are completely separate operations which have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Nothing. At. All.
> 
> Should the state-issued marriage license have a different name like civil union (for ALL couples, not just gays)? Yes, that might help out the idiot Christians to be less confused.



This. Call it whatever you want, just grant equal legal rights and benefits to everyone. That's all we ever ask for. Hell many that I know want nothing at all to do with a church or religion in general. They really couldn't care less if God blessed their marriage or not. They just want the same rights as everyone else. 

What this really boils down to is that Christianity needs to stop poking it's fucking nose into politics. Or any faith for that matter. Oh it offends your religion? Not everyone believes what you may believe. (not aimed at anyone, but making a point)
Too many Christians carry this belief of "this country was founded on Christianity" and that "we need to re-instill these types of morals or face God's wrath." To that first one I call complete and utter bollocks. The country was founded by men of varying faiths and beliefs (or lack of). They all came together under a compromise and made the founding documents off our nation. Forgive the no true scotsmen argument, but REAL patriotism lies in acknowledging that one of the very fundamental ideals in the founding of this country is that you can believe in whatever the hell you want (or believe in nothing) if you so desire so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. 
And that's what's being done here. People are infringing on the civil liberties of good people that haven't done anything to anyone just because other people don't agree with who people sleep with and wanna marry. 

Christians that are against gay marriage based on "moral" grounds believe that allowing it would be an infringement on their religious beliefs. But the solution to it is really, really simple. Don't believe in gay marriage? Don't get gay married. 
While I can't speak for everyone, this pretty much sums up my views on fundies lobbying to block gay marriage:


----------



## flint757

Too funny that is my sig


----------



## Jakke

^Pretty common quote, I don't know who said it originally.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Nimgoble said:


> Let's put it this way, then:
> 
> The time period is just before the Civil Rights Movement. Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches donates $2 million to groups that are actively trying to keep black people from obtaining equal rights. Black people find out about said donations and Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches' stance on the issue of black people having equal rights, and so they decide to stop buying chicken sandwiches from Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches. They also encourage anyone who sympathizes with their plight to stop buying food from Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches, seeing as how doing so is detrimental to black people obtaining equal rights.
> 
> You know what? You're right. I can clearly see how the black people and their sympathizers are the bigots here. Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches are doing nothing but expressing their opinion... through money... to groups that are actively trying to deny rights to said black people. I mean, that doesn't make them the aggressors in this situation, does it? It's okay because Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches are just sticking by their beliefs in a time where it's not fashionable to do so! Pooooooooor Billy Ray's House of White Power and Chicken Sandwiches.


To be honest with you...if such a place existed and they did take a white supremacist stance..that would be their business. Whether I like it or not, it doesn't make them evil. I obviously don't agree with racism, but there are racist people in the world and they have every right to believe what they want. Would I try to take them down, or rejoice in the deaths of their employees and all the other nonsense I've seen people do to Chik-Fil-A? No. Say what you want about that company but I don't see them wishing negativity on gay people and their supporters..seems to be happening a lot the other way around. You think the KKK and Aryan Nation don't get support from various places? Of course they do..do I think it should stop? No..you own a company and you can give money to whoever you want as long as it's legal to do so. Hell I wouldn't give a damn if they gave money to the Westboro Baptist Church any more than I'd care about them giving money to PFLAG, or the NAACP or anything else. There's a group for every opinion..and there's a group because apparently people share the same mindset.

Terms like "they cater to hatred" "they are against gays" "they hate gay people" are just inflammatory. Hating gay people, and not believing in gay marriage are two completely different things, yet for some reason people just put them hand in hand...usually because it's more convenient for their side. You can be against gay marriage and not hate gay people..you just don't feel it's right to give them a term in which you feel has religious significance. It's not that hard to understand..with everything there are at least two sides, and I always find it funny when either side tries really hard to attack and criticize. 

From what I read the company gives money to groups who try to uphold their definition of marriage..so what? I understand why they are doing it and whereas I don't believe in it, they have the right to do so. I actually commend them for being honest about it because these days it's not really a "smart" thing to openly be against something..but if people have the balls to make their view known and are unapologetic about it, I can respect them even if I don't agree. Now people against them are calling them names, wishing death on them, rejoicing in the recent death of one of their employees and all these other things..meanwhile the company just said they are against gay marriage. I certainly don't see the company releasing any statements calling for the death of gay rights activists, trying to get people to boycott businesses that are pro-gay marriage, starting facebook/internet campaigns with memes and little cute pictures, and whatever else Chik-Fil-A's opposers are doing. Honestly I think they're taking the high road here. Delighting in, or hoping for, the death of people just because they don't agree with you? Not exactly mature.

I often find it funny that some of those who have been held back in various ways (gays, blacks, people of various religions) think it's okay to turn the tables..because when it comes from them it's not hate. Some blacks believe they can't be racist..it's just when white people are mean to them, but when they do it, it's alright. Or gay people who have the mentality that straight people are somehow inferior..or people of other religions using the opposite religion as their scapegoat. Wrong is wrong. How can you possibly call one side evil for what they do, when you do the exact same thing to them? Since when do we fight "hate" with even more "hate"? The old saying "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" comes to mind and it really seems valid. Some people are so wrapped in their own side, that they have no issue calling for for the blood of any who don't agree and are completely unaware of what they themselves look like and what they are doing. In life there are always going to be people who don't agree with you..you have to figure out how to coexist..not wipe them from the planet or force them to agree with you.


----------



## flint757

Well they are making memes for the reverse and are calling for national days etc. I can appreciate where you're coming from, but marriage is a legal issue not a religious one. Maybe the law shouldn't have been involved at all, but since they are it matters and arguably religious folk brought that on to themselves by making it law in the first place.

Individuals are calling for boycotts of pro gay places as well. The pettiness goes much deeper than just the "liberals".


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

flint757 said:


> Well they are making memes for the reverse and are calling for national days etc. I can appreciate where you're coming from, but marriage is a legal issue not a religious one. Maybe the law shouldn't have been involved at all, but since they are it matters and arguably religious folk brought that on to themselves by making it law in the first place.
> 
> Individuals are calling for boycotts of pro gay places as well. The pettiness goes much deeper than just the "liberals".



Oh I know..but I'm specifically talking about Chik-Fil-A..clearly the other side has it's MAJOR morons and personally I think if you spend that much time worrying about who gets married, then chances are you could be doing much more important things..HOWEVER I'm talking just about that company. They did what they did, made it known, made no apology, and they're going about their business. That is the adult way to do it as far as I'm concerned. 

Now whether or not there should be gay marriage, or if marriage is a religious thing..all that can be debated until Doomsday, which I'd rather not. I see both sides and in the end I think there should be a compromise somewhere in the middle. It just bothers me to no end when anyone gets "bullied" because of what they believe. I don't agree with Chik-Fil-A, obviously..but just because their opinion isn't my own, I wouldn't hold a grudge. I'm not against anyone of any group, really, as long as they aren't doing me any actual harm.


----------



## Nimgoble

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> To be honest with you...if such a place existed and they did take a white supremacist stance..that would be their business.



And the business of those people they are affecting with their donations to groups that are actively trying to deny people rights.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Whether I like it or not, it doesn't make them evil.



Okay. That's certainly ONE opinion on the matter. I, for one, feel that denying a group of people equal rights because of a passive characteristic is rather evil.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I obviously don't agree with racism, but there are racist people in the world and they have every right to believe what they want.



And no one has said that they DON'T have a right to believe what they believe.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Would I try to take them down, or rejoice in the deaths of their employees and all the other nonsense I've seen people do to Chik-Fil-A? No. Say what you want about that company but I don't see them wishing negativity on gay people and their supporters..seems to be happening a lot the other way around.



No, a public company has not committed suicide by wishing ill upon an entire group of people. WHO'DA THUNK IT?!



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You think the KKK and Aryan Nation don't get support from various places? Of course they do..do I think it should stop? No..you own a company and you can give money to whoever you want as long as it's legal to do so.



And no one is saying that they should be prevented from giving money to these groups, Drakkar. No one is calling for legislation against them giving money to anti-gay groups. All they're doing is choosing not to eat at Chick-Fil-A. Which makes sense, because, when they DO eat at Chick-Fil-A, their money then, in turn, gets sent to anti-gay groups. And the actions of these groups are opposed by those who are boycotting.

That REALLY isn't a difficult premise to understand.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Hell I wouldn't give a damn if they gave money to the Westboro Baptist Church any more than I'd care about them giving money to PFLAG, or the NAACP or anything else. There's a group for every opinion..and there's a group because apparently people share the same mindset.



Right, but they're giving the money YOU spent at their establishments to these groups. By extension, YOU are funding these groups and their actions. Would you give your money to the Westboro Baptist Church? 



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ETC, ETC.



Either you're completely missing the point, or you're trolling.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Nimgoble said:


> And the business of those people they are affecting with their donations to groups that are actively trying to deny people rights.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. That's certainly ONE opinion on the matter. I, for one, feel that denying a group of people equal rights because of a passive characteristic is rather evil.
> 
> 
> 
> And no one has said that they DON'T have a right to believe what they believe.
> 
> 
> 
> No, a public company has not committed suicide by wishing ill upon an entire group of people. WHO'DA THUNK IT?!
> 
> 
> 
> And no one is saying that they should be prevented from giving money to these groups, Drakkar. No one is calling for legislation against them giving money to anti-gay groups. All they're doing is choosing not to eat at Chick-Fil-A. Which makes sense, because, when they DO eat at Chick-Fil-A, their money then, in turn, gets sent to anti-gay groups. And the actions of these groups are opposed by those who are boycotting.
> 
> That REALLY isn't a difficult premise to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Right, but they're giving the money YOU spent at their establishments to these groups. By extension, YOU are funding these groups and their actions. Would you give your money to the Westboro Baptist Church?
> 
> 
> 
> Either you're completely missing the point, or you're trolling.



You seem really invested in this..and completely not understanding that some people may not agree with you and that's fine. Even now you're trying very hard to make me understand why they are wrong..when I don't think they are. I don't give them money..I think their food sucks so I don't go there, and it has nothing to do with their politics or religious views. Do you honestly investigate every company to find out where the money goes before you spend coin there? I highly doubt it. If I found out some place I go to for food gives money to anti-gay marriage groups, would I stop eating there? Honestly? Not sure..probably not, but that's just me.

Now for those who just don't spend money there..they aren't who I'm talking about and I think that's pretty clear by now. My issue is with people going nuts just because a company doesn't agree with something they want. So what? Lines like "anyone who eats there deserves cancer" and other lines picked up by those offended by Chik-Fil-A shows intolerance and lack of perspective. To honestly believe that it's okay to fight what you see as hate..with even more blatant hate and downright ignorance is just childish and gets nothing accomplished. I don't wish death and ill things upon someone just because they don't agree with me. I don't side with either group in this case, however as it stands there are many people saying all kinds of ignorant things regarding that company, yet that company doesn't seem to be retaliating, and that gets my respect.

Now if I said those who boycott were wrong, by all means point it out. My issue has always been with those who sensationalize the issue and turn it into a circus of ignorance and hate..and that goes for both sides. The problem is, at least right now, that the only side going through all the theatrics is the pro-gay marriage side. I have seen more hate, ignorance, and horrible things said from that side than I've heard from Chik-Fil-A..they just said their don't agree with gay marriage..fair enough. Wishing death on them, enjoying their misfortunes, wishing ill on the people who go there, throwing everyone who works there into the "bigot" category, painting them as monsters, etc is all coming from one place and is not being reciprocated..I can't get behind that. There are better ways to handle such issues.


----------



## flint757

The only thing missing is that gays who want to get married are being bullied by the religious right and the establishment. Those who don't want to help a cause they are against do not wish to see their money being used in the process.

And again if you can lump the pro into a side you have to lump the against even if this is not Chick-Fil-A's doing.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

flint757 said:


> The only thing missing is that gays who want to get married are being bullied by the religious right and the establishment. Those who don't want to help a cause they are against do not wish to see there money being used in the process.



Which is fine. I am gay..am I "bullied" by those people because I can't get married? Honestly I'd say no...if they want marriage, let them have it. My only concern is having the legal rights that come with it. If I could get it and have it called something else I really wouldn't care..let them keep the title..but that's just me.

I'm not against those who don't want to spend their money. I'm against those who dislike it so much that they rejoice in the death and misfortunes of others who they don't agree with. At the end of the day, I don't want marriage so much that I want someone to die over it. There are better ways of going about it.


----------



## flint757

I haven't heard anyone say that though. I'm sure it has been said, but by no means am I defending those people. (as in a specific sub set)


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You seem really invested in this..and completely not understanding that some people may not agree with you and that's fine. Even now you're trying very hard to make me understand why they are wrong..when I don't think they are. I don't give them money..I think their food sucks so I don't go there, and it has nothing to do with their politics or religious views. Do you honestly investigate every company to find out where the money goes before you spend coin there? I highly doubt it. If I found out some place I go to for food gives money to anti-gay marriage groups, would I stop eating there? Honestly? Not sure..probably not, but that's just me.
> 
> Now for those who just don't spend money there..they aren't who I'm talking about and I think that's pretty clear by now. My issue is with people going nuts just because a company doesn't agree with something they want. So what? Lines like "anyone who eats there deserves cancer" and other lines picked up by those offended by Chik-Fil-A shows intolerance and lack of perspective. To honestly believe that it's okay to fight what you see as hate..with even more blatant hate and downright ignorance is just childish and gets nothing accomplished. I don't wish death and ill things upon someone just because they don't agree with me. I don't side with either group in this case, however as it stands there are many people saying all kinds of ignorant things regarding that company, yet that company doesn't seem to be retaliating, and that gets my respect.
> 
> Now if I said those who boycott were wrong, by all means point it out. My issue has always been with those who sensationalize the issue and turn it into a circus of ignorance and hate..and that goes for both sides. The problem is, at least right now, that the only side going through all the theatrics is the pro-gay marriage side. I have seen more hate, ignorance, and horrible things said from that side than I've heard from Chik-Fil-A..they just said their don't agree with gay marriage..fair enough. Wishing death on them, enjoying their misfortunes, wishing ill on the people who go there, throwing everyone who works there into the "bigot" category, painting them as monsters, etc is all coming from one place and is not being reciprocated..I can't get behind that. There are better ways to handle such issues.




Oh trust me, I have no love for people that wantonly wish death on any of them because as you correctly said; they are no better than the evil they claim to fight. I see people on both sides taking this to unnecessary extremes. 

But it only stands to logic that that I don't want my money to turn around and be used against me. That's where the crux and cornerstone of it all is. 




DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Which is fine. I am gay..am I "bullied" by those people because I can't get married? Honestly I'd say no...if they want marriage, let them have it. My only concern is having the legal rights that come with it. If I could get it and have it called something else I really wouldn't care..let them keep the title..but that's just me.
> 
> I'm not against those who don't want to spend their money. I'm against those who dislike it so much that they rejoice in the death and misfortunes of others who they don't agree with. At the end of the day, I don't want marriage so much that I want someone to die over it. There are better ways of going about it.


Both excellent points that I completely agree with. (and I'm glad that we do)


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

flint757 said:


> I haven't heard anyone say that though. I'm sure it has been said, but by no means am I defending those people. (as in a specific sub set)



Oh I have. Read an article about the VP of corporate relations for the company..he died..and I've seen lots of places where people are happy about it. Check social media sites for the things people are saying about the company and people who eat/work there. I've heard it from the mouths of people I know. I'm against THOSE people..not just people who don't eat at Chik-Fil-A. When sensationalism becomes more important that the reality of the issue, that's a problem, and I hate when people make it that way. Let's focus on the facts and what's really going on, instead of throwing emotions into it..and that is my point. Those people aren't helping their side by being vicious and ignorant..they make it worse.


----------



## Nimgoble

You know what? Forget it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Nimgoble said:


> No, I do understand that some people may not agree with me. Whether that's fine or not depends on the situation. I'm trying very hard to make you understand why I, and a large chunk of other people, think they're wrong. Because it seems that you are missing the point. That, or you're perfectly okay with denying people equal rights. Which is it?
> 
> 
> 
> I never claimed to investigate every company before I eat there. That doesn't, however, mean that I should ignore a company's actions when they are presented to me. You can be apathetic all you want. Don't lambaste the rest of us because we actually care about something.
> 
> 
> 
> Intolerance? Sure. Is intolerance always a bad thing? Not at all. We're intolerant of racism. We're intolerant of murder. And, as it happens, a good chunk of people are intolerant of others that would deny gay people equal rights.
> 
> As for wishing death on the employees/patrons of this place? I don't agree with that, either.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. How do you NOT side with the group that is for equal rights for gay people?
> 2. Are you honestly surprised that a multi-million dollar company hasn't retaliated to the comments of, what seems to be, a loud minority of their opposition? Their company would TANK if they decided to retaliate in kind. So, what you see as them "taking the high road" is most likely just them clutching their money and smiling.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you're damning the Pro-Gay side, as a whole, because of a loud minority, whose views aren't reflected AT ALL in the aims of the overall goal? And you're giving credit to the multi-million dollar company, with lots to lose, because they haven't committed PR suicide?
> 
> I understand that it's not either "DEATH TO CHICK-FIL-A" or silence coming from the Pro-Gay side. There's probably varying degrees of acidic comments coming from the Pro-Gay side. Is that really so surprising? And is it really so wrong? Is it wrong that people that are being denied the status of "equal human being" in the eyes of the law, and their supporters, are upset over said denial? And that they're taking out their frustrations on those who continue to withhold rights from them?



Are you aware your questions always seem to be loaded? Am I okay with denying equal rights? The broad answer is no..to be more specific do I think people have the right to oppose gay marriage..yes. Both sides believe their rights are being infringed on..it's not just straight christians picking on gay people. They honestly believe marriage is a religious institution and as such shouldn't be given to a group of people who their bible says practices ungodly things. I don't agree with them but they have every right to defend their stance just as gay rights groups have the right to defend theirs.

You take what I say personally. Are you glad one of Chik-Fil-A's VPs died? Do you wish ill on them and their patrons? If so then yes I'm talking about you...if you don't then my point doesn't concern you since you're not who I'm talking about. You come off as if I have a problem with anyone who boycotts the company, which isn't what I said or even implied. 

When I say intolerance..I mean from either side. Attacking someone who doesn't share your view is wrong regardless of who does it. You bring your views to the table and get to the matter at hand, not start a media lynch mob all because you don't like what someone has to say.

I don't side with ANYONE who is too far into their own view to understand the other person's side. I prefer to think for myself instead of just going with whoever agrees with me. We could also debate whether marriage is really a "right" or a "gay right" but I'd rather not. Honestly I take issue with lots of pro-gay marriage groups because I don't like the way they go about it. Not trying to make them stop, but I don't side with them either.

If I were Chik-Fil-A..I'd take my money and smile too. It's my money, I can do what I want, and if you don't like it..too bad. Rant, rave, and sling mud all you want but at the end of the day I'm making money in a legit way and giving that money to people I agree with..nothing wrong with that.

Now where does it say I'm against the entire pro-gay rights side? Mind you I'm not using the terms "pro-gay" and "anti-gay" because to be honest those terms mean you're either for or against gays as a whole and that's not what this is about..so it's very misleading. I'm neither for or against any specific side. I can see both sides and I see the flaws and strengths of both sides and from there I form my own opinion. I feel the answer is probably more in the middle somewhere than it is one side is completely right. There are many gay people who also don't believe in gay marriage..are they "anti-gay"? I for one care nothing about the label and if Christians wanted the label of marriage then fine..legally call it something else so everyone has the same thing, but unofficially Christians can call it marriage. Or even if it was still called marriage and for gay people it was called something else, as long as I received the same benefits, I'd fight semantics later. There are a million different viewpoints on this and whereas I might or might not agree with them, they all have their place and they are all valid. I believe it's more complex than "gays should get married and anyone who doesn't think so is evil"


----------



## flint757

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> To be honest with you...if such a place existed and they did take a white supremacist stance..that would be their business. Whether I like it or not, it doesn't make them evil. I obviously don't agree with racism, but there are racist people in the world and they have every right to believe what they want. Would I try to take them down, or rejoice in the deaths of their employees and all the other nonsense I've seen people do to Chik-Fil-A? No. Say what you want about that company but I don't see them wishing negativity on gay people and their supporters..seems to be happening a lot the other way around. You think the KKK and Aryan Nation don't get support from various places? Of course they do..do I think it should stop? No..you own a company and you can give money to whoever you want as long as it's legal to do so. Hell I wouldn't give a damn if they gave money to the Westboro Baptist Church any more than I'd care about them giving money to PFLAG, or the NAACP or anything else. There's a group for every opinion..and there's a group because apparently people share the same mindset.



I'd like to add one thing on this subject. While from a rational perspective you are technically right (tolerance and accepting others as they are), black people would be just as bad off today if they all felt the same way as you. Change requires action and if you feel that it is completely acceptable for one side to feel a certain way and then allow them to dictate what you can and can't do based on that belief then nothing would have changed. While there isn't a direct parallel obviously, there are similarities to the current situation IMO. Apathy creates stagnation. Just because you may not care about marriage (mind you I don't mean religiously speaking) doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

I do agree that it should be called something else, but it should be called something else legally for ALL Americans, not just gays. That reeks of subtle prejudice. I completely agree that you get married wherever you like and legally handle it the same across the board, but for whatever reason Christian's aren't even okay with that.


----------



## Nimgoble

flint757 said:


> I'd like to add one thing on this subject. While from a rational perspective you are technically right (tolerance and accepting others as they are), black people would be just as bad off today if they all felt the same way as you. Change requires action and if you feel that it is completely acceptable for one side to feel a certain way and then allow them to dictate what you can and can't do based on that belief then nothing would have changed. While there isn't a direct parallel obviously, there are similarities to the current situation IMO. Apathy creates stagnation. Just because you may not care about marriage (mind you I don't mean religiously speaking) doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
> 
> I do agree that it should be called something else, but it should be called something else legally for ALL Americans, not just gays. That reeks of subtle prejudice. I completely agree that you get married wherever you like and legally handle it the same across the board, but for whatever reason Christian's aren't even okay with that.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

flint757 said:


> I'd like to add one thing on this subject. While from a rational perspective you are technically right (tolerance and accepting others as they are), black people would be just as bad off today if they all felt the same way as you. Change requires action and if you feel that it is completely acceptable for one side to feel a certain way and then allow them to dictate what you can and can't do based on that belief then nothing would have changed. While there isn't a direct parallel obviously, there are similarities to the current situation IMO. Apathy creates stagnation. Just because you may not care about marriage (mind you I don't mean religiously speaking) doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
> 
> I do agree that it should be called something else, but it should be called something else legally for ALL Americans, not just gays. That reeks of subtle prejudice. I completely agree that you get married wherever you like and legally handle it the same across the board, but for whatever reason Christian's aren't even okay with that.



That's another thing that bothers me and many other black people. Trying to change "gay" right "black" isn't the same and many see it as discrediting what actually happened to black people. I'm just going to avoid that whole debate..but actually those who opposed blacks had every right to do so. Both sides took their issues to the forefront and eventually one side won out..that's how things are settled. Those blacks who hate white people and come off just as ignorant as white supremacists? They're wrong. You don't get to spew hate because someone else did it first, and somehow both wrongs are turned to rights. With anything there are at least two sides, eventually one side wins out and starts to become popular opinion. Just as with gay rights there are at least two sides, both sides feel they are right, eventually one will win. We all know eventually gays will be able to marry and all of that, it's only a matter of time. If the other side wants to fight back, I'm fine with that..it's only fair both sides have their say.

Gay marriage is more involved than those for and those against..the issue is WHY they are for or against it. Many different thoughts on it and they all have a valid points, and non valid points. I prefer to consider all the points and form my own opinion instead of wholesale "YES" or "NO" on the issue. I don't discredit anyone's valid opinion, nor do I feel they should be silenced. It's an issue that'll take time and a level head to resolve, and going on emotions and sensationalism is only going to hinder that.


----------



## flint757

It doesn't discredit anything as it is all in the past, what happened does not become less significant, that is a ridiculous notion. In any case I said shared similarities not the same and furthermore wasn't the first person who brought it up, it was a part of your response. 

No one once has questioned their right to an opinion, but people have let their friends/family know that every meal you purchase a portion of that will go to an organization that is directly against a cause they are fighting for. It is their right to say what they want and do what they want, just like it is our right to spread the word and make sure those who want gays to have the right for marriage (again not in the religious sense) to not donate to said cause even if through 3rd party. You are defending them, but through your own logic you would have to defend everyone's POV and yet you condemn the gay activists. Not that it matters for at least now they are doing fine, better than normal in some places (Chick-Fil-A that is). Now in the long run they will have lost customers and eventually people will stop eating there everyday to support their unintended cause (or suffer a heart attack). At the end of the day they hurt their customer base and whether it is fair is moot, that is their fault.

The majority of Democrat's in office, half of the independents and like ~25% of the Republicans support gay marriage and many more just don't care (as they don't see the issue as an issue at all). So overall your looking at a close to majority in congress, but it requires more than that for it to pass. Someone actually has to also present the bill and it get approved which takes a lot of public support. The majority of Americans do support gay marriage, but not enough to actually get the ball rolling. I'm really concerned that the Chick-Fil-A thing will backlash though and polarize congress further to the point where our society it least in the political realm is more like the 1950's.

All that aside it is not a witch hunt and it is commendable that they stand by their opinion, but it is also everyone else's right to disagree and act as they wish. If all that was represented was his opinion I'd say people are going overboard, but have that right. Since he is doing a lot more than just that I don't honestly think people are in the wrong. As you said, it is a fight.

Also, you've been on the internet long enough to see people say outrageous things. I wouldn't call it sensational, just over the top and crude. People were making jokes about Colorado shooting the next day!!! People just seem to care less overall these days.


----------



## Waelstrum

Look guys, Drak is against calling for/revelling in death, not the boycott.

However, it seemed to me like some of his posts equated having an opinion and acting on that opinion. I'm sure that's just my misreading rather than his intention.


----------



## flint757

Well that's the tricky bit, at the core I honestly don't disagree with Drak. All I disagree with is his interpretation of the situation at hand and some more arguably trivial facts.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

flint757 said:


> Well that's the tricky bit, at the core I honestly don't disagree with Drak. All I disagree with is his interpretation of the situation at hand and some more arguably trivial facts.



*Sigh*...meet me outside, we're gonna settle this like men. A good ol' fashioned DRAG OFF!


----------



## flint757

Bring it on!!!


----------



## tacotiklah

flint757 said:


> Well that's the tricky bit, at the core I honestly don't disagree with Drak. All I disagree with is his interpretation of the situation at hand and some more arguably trivial facts.



Same. I agree with much of what he said here as I don't think LGBTs or the supporters need to go firebomb Dan Cathy's house now (I've seen comments like this.  ) nor do I wish death or harm of any kind on these people. The best kind of protests are the ones that MLK and Gandhi advocated; non-violent. 

Kinda related: It's funny how people say Drak is the exact opposite of me (like it's some kind of badge of honor or something  ) when in truth we want pretty much the same things. We just go about it differently.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> Same. I agree with much of what he said here as I don't think LGBTs or the supporters need to go firebomb Dan Cathy's house now (I've seen comments like this.  ) nor do I wish death or harm of any kind on these people. The best kind of protests are the ones that MLK and Gandhi advocated; non-violent.
> 
> Kinda related: It's funny how people say Drak is the exact opposite of me (like it's some kind of badge of honor or something  ) when in truth we want pretty much the same things. We just go about it differently.



Magneto and Professor X?


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Magneto and Professor X?



Exactly what I was thinking. 


Edit: Actually I'd see it as more of the interaction of Wolverine and Xavier. I have a hot temper and disagree often in an attempt to do things my own way, but I don't take things to the same extremes as say Magneto. I do have a conscience.


----------



## flint757

Shut up Magneto!!! 

You can't fool me...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> 
> Edit: Actually I'd see it as more of the interaction of Wolverine and Xavier. I have a hot temper and disagree often in an attempt to do things my own way, but I don't take things to the same extremes as say Magneto. I do have a conscience.



Well you're more Professor X..I just wanna fuck some shit up..I'm more Magneto..besides my outfits are better, so I'm Magneto by default


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Well you're more Professor X..I just wanna fuck some shit up..I'm more Magneto..besides my outfits are better, so I'm Magneto by default



Glad we see it as the same way then.


----------



## Waelstrum

I just got a really depressing email. Apparently the gay panic defence is still valid (even for murder) in Queensland. There's a petition if any Queenslanders* here want to sign: Change.org

*I think you have to be a Queensland resident, but I'm not sure.


----------



## flint757

please elaborate. What does gay panic defense mean???


----------



## highlordmugfug

flint757 said:


> please elaborate. What does gay panic defense mean???


Read the link, it explains it.


----------



## Waelstrum

Basically it means that if a gay person comes onto and you kill them, then that's fine. It's a bit like that stand your ground law, but for gays.


----------



## flint757

Yeah I read the link after I posted it and signed the petition.


----------



## Nimgoble

Waelstrum said:


> Basically it means that if a gay person comes onto and you kill them, then that's fine. It's a bit like that stand your ground law, but for gays.



...What the FUCK?


----------



## tacotiklah

Well I just had a music venue piss in my cornflakes tonight. (or so the phrase goes)

Now it's no secret to the local music community out here that I'm transgender because I'm completely open and honest about it. Went to a local show tonight to really try and garner some support for this venue (oh the irony) and while there I had to piss. So since I present and identify as female, I used the women's room. A couple bands later security comes up to me and says that I need to leave. I asked why and he said that it was because I used the women's room and that a father complained and said that he was worried I would do something to his two girls.

I can't tell you how sick to my stomach I am right now. I have never done anything to kids and I would be the first person to die for 'em if they were ever attacked or harmed by people. Why do people have to ruin other people's fun over a relative non-issue like where I go and piss? I'm trying to garner more info on it, but afaik california law mandates that I HAVE to use the restroom of the gender I present as. I made this point to the security guard and he said that they also reserve the right to refuse service to anyone they choose. This is true as well. 

I really don't wanna make a big deal about this (may shock some here.  ) but at the same time, I should be able to use the women's room because regardless of what may or may not be between my pants I'm definitely female. The real salt in the wound was the implication that I'm a pedophile because I just wanna pee and feel comfortable and safe doing it.


----------



## Waelstrum

Gay panic defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Apparently it's allowable in some of the United States as well.


----------



## tacotiklah

Waelstrum said:


> Gay panic defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Apparently it's allowable in some of the United States as well.



I see that most attempts to use it here have failed though. It's a really weak, last-ditch effort defense because you have to prove that it was "temporary insanity" and not a blatant hate crime.


----------



## flint757

My Aunt is a lesbian and has a problem with transgenders using the gender they present as bathrooms. Not because of rape or anything, but I guess a sense of violation. She feels people could claim one thing and really be perv's, but I always thought that was odd since lesbians share bathrooms and gays can use the men's as well and anyone can be a perv. 

Apparently she had went to Norway and in some places they use stalls with ceiling to floor walls and she'd be fine in that environment. I don't get it on some level, but I know she pretty much thinks men are scum, me being the only exception apparently which could explain her bias (probably does). 

As for me I have a hard time pinching one off when others are in the bathroom, I imagine it'd be harder knowing a girl was in the bathroom so I could understand some peoples discomfort. That being said it would never be my first assumption that someone is trying to be a creep or rape someone that is just prejudiced. Honestly even if a transgender or even a cis woman came into the bathroom I wouldn't freak out I'd just take my piss and get on with my day. Maybe women feel differently. I know dads do, they always assume the worst. In that regard I wouldn't take it so personally. you have a long battle ahead of you, gay rights still has a good 5-10 years IMO and I don't think it will happen all at once.


----------



## Don Vito

WHY CAN'T WE JUST ALL PISS IN THE SAME FUCKING PLACE?


----------



## flint757

Valid question. I definitely enjoy the luxury of being able to enter and exit a bathroom in a crowded place in mere seconds instead of hours though. Women restrooms always seem to have a line around the freaking corner. 

And I'm sure women enjoy the luxury of no piss all over the fucking seat (I'd like that too, but drunks just have poor aim).

I'm curious why they can't do that and just include urinals next to toilets in stalls, but I suppose that isn't the most efficient as only one can be used at a time. As it is they won't combine and keep urinals as that is a little too personal considering a facilities potential of being sued or something.


----------



## tacotiklah

I'd definitely vote for unisex bathrooms. Europe does this just fine with little to no incident. I can't see why or how it would be worse for America. 

All I want is to piss in peace. Transwomen don't feel safe using the men's bathroom because they feel like they will be beaten or raped due to their appearance. It's also considered offensive because of the complete lack of acceptance of their gender identity. I figure most would see that last bit as minor, but that first reason is a real concern. I'd place a fair wager that a transwoman can hold her own against a lot of ciswomen (there are notable exceptions to this), but a 200lb man that wants to exert dominance by putting his dick in their bum is much harder to stop. It's a real safety concern. I personally do not feel safe using a men's restroom. Dirtiness aside, I don't wanna become someone's bitch.


----------



## Waelstrum

ghstofperdition said:


> I see that most attempts to use it here have failed though. It's a really weak, last-ditch effort defense because you have to prove that it was "temporary insanity" and not a blatant hate crime.



A case in Queensland (my home state) got overturned on this basis just over two years ago. 


On the topic of unisex public toilets:


----------



## Jakke

The swedish pride week has started now, and not without controversy. A lecture about the situation for LGBT-people in the middle east (it's a disaster BTW) was only open for "non-white queers". Not very appropriate from two perspectives, of course it's hypocritical for a movement built on inclusion to exclude, and from an anthropological perspective arabic people are considered white


----------



## flint757

ghstofperdition said:


> I'd definitely vote for unisex bathrooms. Europe does this just fine with little to no incident. I can't see why or how it would be worse for America.
> 
> All I want is to piss in peace. Transwomen don't feel safe using the men's bathroom because they feel like they will be beaten or raped due to their appearance. It's also considered offensive because of the complete lack of acceptance of their gender identity. I figure most would see that last bit as minor, but that first reason is a real concern. I'd place a fair wager that a transwoman can hold her own against a lot of ciswomen (there are notable exceptions to this), but a 200lb man that wants to exert dominance by putting his dick in their bum is much harder to stop. It's a real safety concern. I personally do not feel safe using a men's restroom. Dirtiness aside, I don't wanna become someone's bitch.



Not really taking sides on this one, but I'd like to point out that your reason for wanting to use the gender identified bathroom is the same reason that the father gave for why he didn't wanting you to use the women's. You found his argument to be ridiculous, but he doesn't know you personally. In both circumstances y'all are making very broad assumptions of what could happen. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying one thing is more likely than the other or that the fears you have aren't justified. I just wanted to point out that you presented the exact same argument as the father.


----------



## tacotiklah

flint757 said:


> Not really taking sides on this one, but I'd like to point out that your reason for wanting to use the gender identified bathroom is the same reason that the father gave for why he didn't wanting you to use the women's. You found his argument to be ridiculous, but he doesn't know you personally. In both circumstances y'all are making very broad assumptions of what could happen. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying one thing is more likely than the other or that the fears you have aren't justified. I just wanted to point out that you presented the exact same argument as the father.



Fair enough, but understand that forcing me to have to use the bathroom at the same time as a guy is uncomfortable as fuck for me. I feel like I'm walking in on something I shouldn't be. You know that feeling you get when you accidentally walk into the ladies room? I get that same kind of embarrassment when I walk into the guys room. I can't explain it or understand it, but I certainly cannot help it either. I need to use the ladies room or else have a locking unisex bathroom in which I can pee and then leave.


----------



## flint757

I completely understand that part I was only critiquing your first comment. As I said before I don't really see what the fuss is, it is a bathroom not a brothel. If gay men can be in the bathroom and lesbians can be in the bathroom without people getting hurt why would it be any different if people shared.


----------



## Jakke

I VOTE SEXUALITY SEGREGATED RESTROOMS!


----------



## highlordmugfug

God disapproves of gender mixing. For shame on straight people and gender-neutral restrooms.


----------



## Jakke

Bi-people, you can only pee after putting on a burka. No funny-business on my watch.

As a matter of fact, soon to launch:
Mugfug and Jakke restroom burkas. Only grey colour available, also very handy for parents with those pesky teenage children. Made of the finest wool with inspirational bible verses embroidered.


----------



## morrowcosom

I have had to run into the women's bathroom on numerous occasions because of intentionally clogged, piss-drenched toilets in the mens' bathroom. 

If there were gender neutral bathrooms, girls wouldn't very much like dealing with nasty ass toilets all the time.


----------



## highlordmugfug

morrowcosom said:


> I have had to run into the women's bathroom on numerous occasions because of intentionally clogged, piss-drenched toilets in the mens' bathroom.
> 
> If there were gender neutral bathrooms, girls wouldn't very much like dealing with nasty ass toilets all the time.


I've seen womens restrooms with piss and shit all over the seat (if one woman squats, every women after her is going to most likely) and with blood on the seat and bloody tampons chucked everywhere. Trying to say that anyone will lose because their restrooms be will dirtier after de-gender-segregating is BULLSHIT of the highest caliber. I've seen fucking disgusting men and women's restrooms, to be frank, in my personal experience the women's restrooms were nastier on average. So anecdotal evidence like that is useless.

EDIT: Not to mention it's both dumb and sexist reasoning, no matter which side tries to use it as justification for not de-gender-segregating restrooms.


----------



## tacotiklah

^ true. I just don't feel comfortable peeing with dudes around. Regardless of whether or not I may share a similar body part, I'm not a guy and I just don't wanna pee with dudes around. That shit is embarrassing for me.


----------



## Nimgoble

Jakke said:


> As a matter of fact, soon to launch:
> Mugfug and Jakke restroom burkas. Only grey colour available, also very handy for parents with those pesky teenage children. Made of the finest wool with inspirational bible verses embroidered.



Where do I pre-order?


----------



## Jakke

Nimgoble said:


> Where do I pre-order?



Look into your heart, search and you will find. Our retail is at the same distance as the thickness of a dream, but at the same time further away than the ending of infinity. It is shrouded in mist and lighter than a whisper on the lips of a unicorn.

Once this bastion has been found, three trials will be issued. First the trial of preferance. Second the trial of estimation. And third, the trial of separation. Complete these trials, and you will have the price you covet. But if you are not stout of heart and pure of spirit, surely you shall perish.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah burka is not on my list of fashionable shit to wear. I'll just keep being fucking fabulous and wear a cute tanktop with jeans.  

So anyways, I've talked to some legal counsel just in case. I like keeping my options open. Yep, I'm in the clear and if I identify as female, I should be allowed to use the women's room. I don't need to show ID or proof of SRS to do so either. So my rights were infringed. Good to know. 
They really wanted me to pursue a case. I said not right now. Apparently I have up to 2 years before I can pursue this if I choose to do so. (statute of limitations and all)

Instead I'm just gonna keep pissing in the women's room and if they have beef with it, tough shit. Let 'em call the cops if they have a problem. Cops will remind them of the law as well.


----------



## flint757

I've got to stop reading comment sections they just piss me off to no end.  (there was one attached to this photo )


----------



## Don Vito

^Now I have something to show people that refuse to hold a serious debate on these subjects, a.k.a everybody I know irl.


----------



## flint757

There was a comment for that photo that made me , it said"If God is always right then why did he change his mind in the new testament"


----------



## tacotiklah

Just saw this article and thought it was pretty cool. It explains a few things better than I could when it comes to the trans community as a whole:
Wipe Out Transphobia - Snowflake BaggageWipe Out Transphobia


----------



## tacotiklah

Here's an open letter to a Maryland politician regarding some of his attempts to silence a Ravens player on the issue of gay marriage:

NFL&#8217;s Chris Kluwe to anti-gay lawmaker: &#8216;Holy fucking shitballs. Did you seriously just say that?&#8217; &#8211; LGBTQ Nation

And here is the original article of where the politician sent a "cease and desist" letter to that Ravens player:
Maryland Politician Wants Ravens to Make Brendon Ayanbadejo &#8220;Cease and Desist&#8221; His Gay Marriage Advocacy | The Big Lead

Yep, because people like Jackie Robinson are assholes for being vocal about civil rights issues too. Sports players shouldn't have opinions.


----------



## The Only Factor

I would first like to say that I was rather surprised to find this thread here. After discovering it, I had started reading a lot of the content withing it and am really surprised that it goes a LOT deeper than I was expecting. I would first like to congratulate those who have posted such posts, thoughts and information in here.  

OP (Jess), I congratulate you for starting such a thread, and for standing your ground and supporting those who are LGBT and look to be as equal as everyone else irregardless of what orientation they decide to be and how they feel comfortable. And I would like to extend my deepest appologies (though no fault of my own in such matter...) on the issue of being asked to leave the event you were at and the thoughts and feelings of being considered a pedophile. I went thru a similar situation, but more hurtful was done by my own family. I may elaborate on this much later - in how much detail as of right now is also questionable for obvious reasons...

A little about me. Sorry if this is a little long-winded:
I myself have recently - within the last 5 years - have decided that being strait was obviously not me nor was it meant to be. As many times as I've tried to find a girlfriend, things just never worked and a lot of it was mainly my faults. I'm sure that many have had "bad childhoods" and I don't question or doubt them or what they went thru, but mine seems to be one tragedy after another (grandparents died of cancer 10 days apart, parents divorced not even a year later. There was a lot I was going thru in the last 10 years including a severe depression which led to hospitalization, my dad passing on my birthday 5 years ago and finally snapping from an entire half of my family's hatred for me and un-abilty to attempt to care or understand why I was the way I am or why I was into what I am and why... Things wound up working out for the best and I am now no longer in the same state and have new, better friends - about a good 60% of which are LGBT. A drastic 180 and glad it happened when it did. I otherwise would either be institutionalized, in jail or not here today to type this. And my music has had a HUGE part to do with that.

In the middle of trying to overcome my depression with meds, I wound up meeting someone at my work that I seemed to really like (little did I know that my gay-dar was going crazy at the time...) that I later found out was gay. This just so happened to be a time that I decided that being strait was hopeless and was questioning the other side of things. This person was and still is a really great guy and a very close friend and is the person that helped me understand and answer everything I was asking and wondering. Though it wound up being solidly confirmed to me about 5 years ago that I was gay, there's been a lot of things that gave me hints and indications, but a lot of it was a puzzle that needed putting together to really see the bigger picture and understanding it.

While there are a select few from my home state that do know I'm gay and what I'm into as far as "interests and activities", I noticed that quite a few of them I haven't heard from in years now, and the half of the family that can't stand me afaik don't know - or if they found out I don't really care anymore. There's still a few that I do talk to and hang out (not gay-ly that is...) with, but 2/3's of the real family I have knows and is okay with it. They just want me to be happy, which is what we all want ideally. The other third that doesn't know is because I don't want to scare them, his wife or the kids or have them think any differently of me because of it.

But since my move and relocation, I have since found a partner that I am extremely happy to be with, and he's introduced me to some really amazing people and some even more amazing places that shaped our community to what is is today, such as "The Stonewall Inn" and the infamous The Leatherman" and of course Christopher St. and the West Village in NYC. Though a lot of it is different now, all of which is incredible and something I never fully understood or wondered about until I met the right person. And I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life because of him and what he means to me. 

So I am actually glad I came across this thread, and I am glad to see many of those I've been talking to in this community as well. I will be keeping an eye on this thread and expect to be replying more here in the future. I also hope to chat more with some of the exclusive posters here as well to get even more insight regarding our community and other such interests. Again, very cool to see that a lot of the content is a lot deeper than one could expect and also very glad that there is yet another spot people like us can have a place to be welcomed and open about ourselves. Kudos to all for the amazing content in here and hope to chat more with some or all of you more soon.

Until then, stay heavy and stay true!


----------



## Razzy

New Romney/Ryan ad. (Note: It's not endorsed by either.)

I'm not sure I've ever been so mad and amused at the same time.


----------



## tacotiklah

Forcing gay marriage on people? Sure hope my future wife isn't a complete bitch then.
I would've told her to just shut up and get back to fixing me breakfast. 

@TheOnlyFactor:
You are quite welcome sir and you'll find that out of most of the guitar forums, SSO is probably the most diverse and accepting. Nobody has much tolerance for bigotry here and those with bigoted views tend to not last long either. 

I'm very glad that you were able to find who you are in life and that it's made you happier in the end. Be glad and embrace that part of you. I did it and while at times it makes it seem like I'm playing the game of life on expert mode, I feel happier overall and more at peace within myself. It's joys like that, that cannot be bought with any price. 

I welcome you here and look forward to more contributions from you. This thread was intended to be a haven for those folk that half the country seem to hate. If you're pissed off because of discrimination; post here. If you want to come out to people and need some support and/or advice; post here. If you're a straight ally and wanna show support; post here.


----------



## CannibalKiller

As far as I know I'm 100% straight, but LGBT people are some of the nicest people on the planet. So fuck homophobes and fuck Republicans.


----------



## Waelstrum

^ A lot of LGBT people do fuck Republicans.


----------



## tacotiklah

Waelstrum said:


> ^ A lot of LGBT people do fuck Republicans.



There are gay republicans too. I know, my head hurts at that thought too. 

http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf
Ah, and since this pertains to me and a few others on the forum I thought I'd repost this. This is a survey on the conditions and treatment of transgender people. This is a great way to dispel some myths, as well as give people a better insight as to how we can do better. Some things like "Fifty-three percent (53%) of respondents reported
being verbally harassed or disrespected in a
place of public accommodation"

along with:
"Ninety percent
(90%) of those surveyed reported experiencing
harassment, mistreatment or discrimination on the 
job or took actions like hiding who they are to avoid it"

and

"A staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting 
suicide compared to 1.6% of the general population"

shows that trans rights are still a huge concern. That last one really breaks my heart.


----------



## Xaios

I know some of you will enjoy reading this:

NFL Star&#8217;s Incredible Letter to Homophobic Politician | Revel & Riot


----------



## tacotiklah

Xaios said:


> I know some of you will enjoy reading this:
> 
> NFL Stars Incredible Letter to Homophobic Politician | Revel & Riot



This was my favorite part of that whole letter:


> How does gay marriage, in any way shape or form, affect your life? If gay marriage becomes legal, are you worried that all of a sudden youll start thinking about penis? Oh shit. Gay marriage just passed. Gotta get me some of that hot dong action!


----------



## flint757

In a word awesome.


----------



## Cynic

i'm about to burst out of my top boyzz~

but seriously i thoroughly enjoy seeing people crossdress <3


----------



## ry_z

Cynic said:


> but seriously i thoroughly enjoy seeing people crossdress <3



Skirts are awesome.

that is all


----------



## Cynic

It would take ages to shave my legs to look good in a skirt. You should see how hairy my legs are compared to the rest of my body. :x


----------



## ry_z

Leggings!


----------



## tacotiklah

Cynic, you look pretty andro enough to pass. If I looked that good, I would be one happy bitch indeed!


----------



## Jakke

Cynic said:


> It would take ages to shave my legs to look good in a skirt. You should see how hairy my legs are compared to the rest of my body. :x



I know right? It's like total hair central down there.


----------



## tacotiklah

I just shaved my legs and body yesterday. Goddamn process took me an hour and a half. I really hate it, and hope to god I can afford electrolysis and HRT soon.


----------



## Jakke

I'm glad that I am not genderally obliged to shave my legs


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah, I'm wishing I hadn't spent most of my life becoming a fatass. That has been a nasty hindrance to a lot of my transition.


----------



## tacotiklah

I'm so glad to hear this!:
California becomes first state in nation to ban 'gay cure' therapy for children - U.S. News

The damage this kind of "therapy" has had on kids has left me disgusted and up at night at times. The thought that people were using 19th century methods to psychology to "cure" gays is just so sickening to me...


----------



## Curt

Finally. That gay cure therapy crap has always made me angry.

90% of people where I live still act as if gay is some disease you can catch simply by spending too much time around them. I'm straight, but ignorance of such degree is unacceptable.


----------



## The Only Factor

This is the first I've ever heard of this... After reading the article, I'm glad that it's starting to draw serious attention and getting a stop put to it. I mean hell, a kid who is gay can have just as much trouble and difficulty enough with losing his family and everything and wind up on the brink of suicide without such "therapy". Hell, I was at the point of suicide before solidly deciding I was gay and the select handful of family I am good with and close to knew it, but the half of the family that hated me didn't. I know it would have been a lot worse had they known...

But I am curious, what about this so called "therapy" is it that makes it so controvertial and dangerous to kids?


----------



## tacotiklah

It's fundies that say you can "pray away the gay" and "cure" the kids of homosexuality. Basically it's brainwashing kids into thinking they can turn straight. It never works, and the backlash of it can have serious mental and emotional damage when the kid learns that they were born les/gay/bi/trans and that nothing can EVER change that.


----------



## flint757

It is the equivalent, damage wise, to telling a kid they aren't good enough or a POS all the time basically. For all I know they could do a lot worse though as well.


----------



## Cynic

ghstofperdition said:


> I just shaved my legs and body yesterday. Goddamn process took me an hour and a half. I really hate it, and hope to god I can afford electrolysis and HRT soon.



Oh yeah, I forgot to reply. It would be neat if you started one of those timelines (with pictures) from when you start HRT until, like, two years later. Would be really cool to see the _trans_formation.


----------



## mcd

Curt said:


> Finally. That gay cure therapy crap has always made me angry.
> 
> 90% of people where I live still act as if gay is some disease you can catch simply by spending too much time around them. I'm straight, but ignorance of such degree is unacceptable.



I grew up in Kansas and their never was a big gay is bad fad when i went to high school. Did things change in the last 10 years?


----------



## tacotiklah

Cynic said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot to reply. It would be neat if you started one of those timelines (with pictures) from when you start HRT until, like, two years later. Would be really cool to see the _trans_formation.



I plan to start one when I get started on hormones. For right now, I DO have a pic of what I looked like around this time last year (before I came out about it and started changing my appearance) and also a pic of what I look like now. It's definitely a work in progress and it will be a while before I'm where I want to be. I can post and put them side by side if you guys want.


----------



## Curt

mcd said:


> I grew up in Kansas and their never was a big gay is bad fad when i went to high school. Did things change in the last 10 years?


 Not sure of the whole of kansas, but here in the southeast region? Oh yeah, big change.
I lost about half my "friends" in high school when I befriended the only openly gay kid, and the only transgendered girl.

Never understood the big deal, really. Even my friends that stuck around wondered if I was gay, or secretly had some "tranny fetish".
Which I find to be stupid... On top of the fact that I veiw transmen/women in the same way as normal men and women.

Sure, If I began dating a nice woman who later revealed herself to me as being transgendered, i'd be a little upset. But only on the count of her being dishonest with me. But with the way most people react(often violently) when they find out... I cannot place much blame on them. transpeople and gays are just as normal as we straight people. 

Then again, with what I just posted, i'm sure a load more "classic" straights would boot me from their circle.


----------



## mcd

^^ Bro i spent my life growing up betwix manhattan topeka and lawrence, those are pretty "liberal" towns in KS...Don't fret people that ditch you cause of your other friends they were never friends in the first place.


----------



## Curt

mcd said:


> ^^ Bro i spent my life growing up betwix manhattan topeka and lawrence, those are pretty "liberal" towns in KS...Don't fret people that ditch you cause of your other friends they were never friends in the first place.


 Its the smaller towns, most notably the one i'm from that seem the most backwards.
Topeka is where i'm moving to next year, btw. 

And fuck the fake friends, they only hung around when they wanted shit from me. Ahh, that something about high-school that makes you miss it, and be glad you're well past it at the same time.


----------



## tacotiklah

Curt said:


> Its the smaller towns, most notably the one i'm from that seem the most backwards.
> Topeka is where i'm moving to next year, btw.
> 
> And fuck the fake friends, they only hung around when they wanted shit from me. Ahh, that something about high-school that makes you miss it, and be glad you're well past it at the same time.



I was just glad to be rid of high school. Only thing I miss is having way less responsibilities.


----------



## tacotiklah

I saw this and was pretty horrified:




Also, I noticed that Maryland, Maine, Minnesota, and Washington State have gay marriage up for vote. (why the hell are we voting on basic rights again?)
If you live there, remember that every vote for it will be a big help to people that should be allowed to marry.


----------



## Sang-Drax

The Only Factor said:


> But I am curious, what about this so called "therapy" is it that makes it so controvertial and dangerous to kids?



Aside from what has already been said - it plainly doesn't work, as proven by decades of unfruitful "conversion" techniques perpetrated against gay people. It's charlatanism. It's just a way for pseudo therapists to earn easy money at the cost of the psychological health of their patients.

I'm actually surprised these kinds of therapy aren't banned throughout the entire country, since every American psychiatrist association I've ever heard of shun them


----------



## flint757

Probably because it can qualify as "alternative medicine" which means nobody has to give it any credit, in fact for alternative medicine the less credible the better.


----------



## Sang-Drax

flint757 said:


> Probably because it can qualify as "alternative medicine" which means nobody has to give it any credit, in fact for alternative medicine the less credible the better.



Oh I see. They shouldn't be labeled as 'psychology' or 'psychiatry', then - and yet I've seen such professionals claiming their conversion therapies are actually medical science!


----------



## Jakke

It has also helped cause numerous suicides


----------



## flint757

I have no idea what it qualifies as, but if the medical world and journals are discrediting it I can't see how legally they'd be allowed to implement such techniques; which is why I assumed that it is probably qualified as alternative medicine. Psychiatrists treat with drugs though so it would be a psychologists. They are given leeway on what they are allowed to do since it isn't surgery, pills, etc., but behavioral and talk therapy.

This problem isn't just the medical community though, it is the parents making their kids go as I assume the law isn't making anyone go. Instead of banning the therapy they should just make it child abuse to make your child go as that is what it is. If someone wants to do it, whether it works or not, more power to them. As an adult people should have the right to choose what they want to do with their own lives even if it is dumb


----------



## tacotiklah

Well it seems like people are already trying to overturn California's decision on gay therapy, and they're trying to cite Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech in order to do it:
Lawsuit challenges California ban on gay conversion therapy for youth - Yahoo! News

This is why I'm starting to dislike any religion at all.


----------



## Sang-Drax

ghstofperdition said:


> Well it seems like people are already trying to overturn California's decision on gay therapy, and they're trying to cite Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech in order to do it:
> Lawsuit challenges California ban on gay conversion therapy for youth - Yahoo! News
> 
> This is why I'm starting to dislike any religion at all.



It's a common misconception to label everything as freedom of speech these days.

It's science, goddamit - not an opinion! You may shout as much as you want how gay-conversion therapies are the shit - but you can't submit people to something that may cause deep harm _without evidence to support a chance of success_. Otherwise a surgeon might as well replace a heart with a potato under the argument that "his opinion is that it works just fine".


----------



## flint757

> "Under the plaintiffs' argument, the First Amendment would shield therapists and psychiatrists from medical malpractice and psychological-abuse claims simply because they use speech in practicing their medicine. That is a novel and frivolous view of the First Amendment," he said.



This sums up why it is stupid. Religion has already lost the war in the medical world, they need to give up. Weren't there cases were Alternative medicine using religion was deemed child abuse? In the bible a lot is advocated that we legally aren't allowed to do, where do they suggest we draw the line? 

[EDIT]



> Dr. Robert Spitzer, the psychiatrist who pioneered the treatment, has since renounced it and has apologized to the gay and lesbian community.



The freaking pioneer renounces its usefulness. So the inventor says it doesn't work, the science community says it doesn't work and the facts say it doesn't work. This is a new level of religious stupidity when you can't even ignore the facts as they are staring you in the face. Those blocking it probably have gay children and are 'hoping' to 'save' their souls or some other bullshit. People will try anything when they get desperate.


----------



## Nile

There is this Lutheran church next to my house, and the pastor's house is next to that. He has a noticeable sign on his front lawn saying vote yes to banning gay marriage and shit. I have the urge to draw no over yes and draw a wang on it with a Sharpie.


----------



## flint757

DO IT: record his reaction on video, post on youtube and call it "Pastors Gone Wild"....make millions.


----------



## tacotiklah

Nile said:


> There is this Lutheran church next to my house, and the pastor's house is next to that. He has a noticeable sign on his front lawn saying vote yes to banning gay marriage and shit. I have the urge to draw no over yes and draw a wang on it with a Sharpie.



I approve of this.


----------



## Curt

ghstofperdition said:


> I was just glad to be rid of high school. Only thing I miss is having way less responsibilities.


That and free access to weight-lifting equipment is all I miss.

Losing definition in every part of my body and gaining weight from less time exercising FTL. 



Nile said:


> There is this Lutheran church next to my house, and the pastor's house is next to that. He has a noticeable sign on his front lawn saying vote yes to banning gay marriage and shit. I have the urge to draw no over yes and draw a wang on it with a Sharpie.


 
Please do.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Nile said:


> There is this Lutheran church next to my house, and the pastor's house is next to that. He has a noticeable sign on his front lawn saying vote yes to banning gay marriage and shit. I have the urge to draw no over yes and draw a wang on it with a Sharpie.



I will make sweet manlove with yougive you everything I own.


----------



## flint757

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I will make sweet manlove with yougive you everything I own.


----------



## Curt




----------



## Nile

I'll use a Magnum Sharpie to make the wang more noticeable, I wouldn't want the pastor to be upset if he didn't see it before taking down the sign.

Or what Jazzhands said.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

....they told me I could be anything...so I became a drag queen doll...








So, my lil sexual deviants. Halloween is around the corner...any big plans? Why didn't I make this a separate thread..because I don't care about the straight people..non-straight folk have more fun anyways. I can't be the only one doing drag this Halloween.


----------



## tacotiklah

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....they told me I could be anything...so I became a drag queen doll...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, my lil sexual deviants. Halloween is around the corner...any big plans? Why didn't I make this a separate thread..because I don't care about the straight people..non-straight folk have more fun anyways. I can't be the only one doing drag this Halloween.



Well I had plans to go as a goth girl, but sadly a lot of different bills came up and I couldn't afford the boots, skirt, and some of the necessary makeup. So I'll probably chill at home and pass out candy. Maybe have the bf over for some fun too.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> Well I had plans to go as a goth girl, but sadly a lot of different bills came up and I couldn't afford the boots, skirt, and some of the necessary makeup. So I'll probably chill at home and pass out candy. Maybe have the bf over for some fun too.



Halloween sex > dressing up...just saying. I'll be all trussed up in shapewear with my junk tucked and all that..I won't be having any sex...the last thing you want to do in drag is have sex. Maybe later in the night when I take all that shit off.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Cross in the Closet: Straight Christian Lives a Year as Gay Man - ABC News


----------



## tacotiklah

I have so much respect for that guy. Once you walk a mile in our shoes, life will really change and your eyes will really be opened to exactly how the the world really is. It's both frightening and awesome.


----------



## tm20

i have a question which hopefully gets answered before i go to sleep XD i have to do a group presentation tomorow and the person before me is talking about a mechanism for causing homosexuality in the womb (where the mother's antigbodies cause the male fetus to become gay by having an effect on the developing brain) i'm supposed to rebut this and explain why a mechanism of maternal inheritance via the X chromosome is more appropriate. i was going to rebut by saying that the antibody mechanism doesn't account for how lesbians are born (since the antibodies only appear when a male fetus develops due to the Y chromosomes) but i then realized that the X chromosome mechanism also doesn't work:
-if the gene is recesive, guys only need 1 copy where as girls need 2, therefore carrier girls are heterosexual
-if it's dominant, then girs who only have 1 copy would be lesbians hence they wouldn't pass it on

so how would lesbians arise through a genetic mechanism? it's possible that the supposed gene lies on one of the autosomal chromosomes but i haven't reasearched much on this (although i will now) i need a good argument or else i'm so fucked and the whole group gets marked down :|


----------



## tacotiklah

I'll let the more educated people in here take a crack at that. 

I will say that from everything that I've read on the subject, homosexuality is a product of both genetic and environmental factors. Beyond that, I don't know much more. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


----------



## tm20

i also believe its both environmental and genetic, but for this debate i can only argue 1 side  thanks anyways


----------



## Jakke

The most commonly accepted mechanism is as follows:

When we lie in the womb, there are for a lot of the time no difference between a female or male fetus. It is decided if it is a boy or a girl at conception, but not until about 16-18 weeks is it visible. Well, this change is initiated by a shower of testosteron coming from the mother for boys, if there is not testosteron, the child will become a girl. 

Research has shown that men and women are different mentally, and they have traced that diffference to newborn children 1 week old, just putting it out there, because the post-modern thought of gender being enviromental refuses to give in. Now, among the traits that are different is that women tend to be interested in people, men tend to be interested in mechanical things (and this is not me saying this, it is neuroscientists). Among the things men are less good at is empathy, and women doing abstract things such as reading maps (I shit you not). Since this division is present in 1 week old babies, researchers are led to believe that testosteron at fetal stage has this effect. They are also hypothesising that the amount of testosteron is significant, since a higher dose will give men more of the "male characteristics", and less will give them fewer.

How does this go together with being gay?
- Well, it is believed that a boy getting an even lower amount of testosteron, just enough to make them boys (we take male homosexuality as an example) will make them gay. Developmentally they are more "woman" (it sounds bad though...), gay men have also been shown to have more of the female characteristics than straight men, such as an interest for people, which is the hypothesis why gay men often chooses to work with things where usually mostly women work.

Remember though that this is tendencies, there can be big differences on individual level, but the trend is this.


This is controversial though. Most researchers in homosexuality have been sociologists, and they are notoriously hostile to use natural science to their pet subject (be is homosexuality, gender or race). They usually refuse to ackowledge these biological links and keep pulling in grants for holding their ears saying "it's enviromental". This hostility towards science is what made the norwegian pull ALL government funding for gender studies, as they actually did not do any science.

One piece of evidence for a biological explanation is that you can actually see in very young children if they probably will be gay, for them engaging in "gender-nonspecific activities" the probability is 75% to be gay. With these activities researchers mean thins not usually associated with one gender, a boy playing with dolls or a girl with cars. And before anyone yells lol misogynist (or caveman, the fuck do I know?), think about that the science is actually here, this is not something I am making up.


----------



## tm20

thanks for the info  i actually read that there might be epigenetic influences on autosomal chromosomes which cause homosexuality BUT because epigenetics is considered "environmental", i can't discuss it. as for the testosterone levels, do you know what causes it? is it genetics, epigentics or the mother's health which causes it? anyway, i think i got my part for the debate figured. i can use the x chromosome mechanism to explain homosexuality in males and then use the autosomal chromosome mechanism to explain females (as well as males).

*BTW i end my powerpoint slides with this photo






it's not too inappropriate is it?


----------



## Sang-Drax

Jakke said:


> This is controversial though. Most researchers in homosexuality have been sociologists, and they are notoriously hostile to use natural science to their pet subject (be is homosexuality, gender or race). They usually refuse to ackowledge these biological links and keep pulling in grants for holding their ears saying "it's enviromental". This hostility towards science is what made the norwegian pull ALL government funding for gender studies, as they actually did not do any science.



That's an interesting information. I have noticed the same pattern - of sociologists abhoring biology for some reason - in other fields of study.



Jakke said:


> One piece of evidence for a biological explanation is that you can actually see in very young children if they probably will be gay, for them engaging in "gender-nonspecific activities" the probability is 75% to be gay. With these activities researchers mean thins not usually associated with one gender, a boy playing with dolls or a girl with cars. And before anyone yells lol misogynist (or caveman, the fuck do I know?), think about that the science is actually here, this is not something I am making up.



And then there are the facts regarding twins.

- If an identical twin is gay, the other one is 50% likely to be gay as well;
- If a non-identical twin is gay, the other one is 25% likely to be gay as well;
- Average gay population is somewhere between 4-10%

I'm not sure if this data refers only to gay men. Most studies on homosexuality focus on males, as they're easier to figure out than female (beats me why; I saw an American scientist saying so in an Italian documentary).



tm20 said:


> thanks for the info  i actually read that there might be epigenetic influences on autosomal chromosomes which cause homosexuality BUT because epigenetics is considered "environmental", i can't discuss it. as for the testosterone levels, do you know what causes it? is it genetics, epigentics or the mother's health which causes it?



From what I've read, that's still under discussion. I've read an interesting thoery in a low-credibility magazine: allegedly there's a study that shows that mothers under stress are more likely to have gay babies. The evolutionary explanation for that would be that homosexuals are not prone to have more kids (= mouths to feed) so we'd be focused entirely on helping the rest of the family/band/society/whatever. Yes, according to this theory, we'd play support roles - pretty much like a D&D Bard 

An interesting hypothesis but I've never seen this study mentioned anywhere else.


----------



## Jakke

Sang-Drax said:


> That's an interesting information. I have noticed the same pattern - of sociologists abhoring biology for some reason - in other fields of study.



Yeah, unfortunately they are. From what I get their paradigm is threatened. The post-modern thought dominating in antropology and sociology is incompatible with much of modern biology, and we can see that modern biology is supported by evidence. I think they are feeling threatened quite frankly. Sociologists are taught from day one that in nature vs nurture, nurture always wins, so I would be spooked too.



Sang-Drax said:


> And then there are the facts regarding twins.
> 
> - If an identical twin is gay, the other one is 50% likely to be gay as well;
> - If a non-identical twin is gay, the other one is 25% likely to be gay as well;
> - Average gay population is somewhere between 4-10%
> 
> I'm not sure if this data refers only to gay men. Most studies on homosexuality focus on males, as they're easier to figure out than female (beats me why; I saw an American scientist saying so in an Italian documentary).



I had heard that, it's interesting for sure. I seriously heard a gay-researcher (he was gay too, but did not start out as it, it was apparently something he had decided to be....) claim that trying to understand from where homosexuality comes from is tantamount to nazism, there is such a massive resistance from this camp towards science.



Sang-Drax said:


> Yes, according to this theory, we'd play support roles - pretty much like a D&D Bard



Yeah, there are some evolutionary biologists who believe that the reason homosexuality stays in populations is because it is beneficial to have males around who are not driven by the desire to reproduce. A straight male might be driven to kill another male's offspring to increase his own offspring's chance, but with someone gay you receive the benefits of a male (such as increased strength to protect females and children) without risking the children. An interesting hypothesis, and I can't see anything that's glaringly wrong with it.



tm20 said:


> do you know what causes it? is it genetics, epigentics or the mother's health which causes it?



I am happy to say I have no idea, but as an educated guess I'd say that there is something in the mother. But that is, and this should be underlined, a guess.


----------



## Bigfan

Sang-Drax said:


> Yes, according to this theory, we'd play support roles - pretty much like a D&D Bard



Or like my 10th level hammer-wielding Goliath warlord


----------



## Sang-Drax

I've just read something interesting in _Le Monde_.

There was this supposedly straight couple - Wilfrid and Marie. They had three babies. One day, Marie comes out to Wilfrid. Marie is gay.

Wilfrid is relieved because he himself suffered from gender identity disorder. He then changes sex and they're happily together.

Wilfrid - now named Chloé - says that their kids refer to her (Chloé) as 'une papa' (indefinite feminine pronoun - something like a she-father).


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Halloween sex > dressing up...just saying. I'll be all trussed up in shapewear with my junk tucked and all that..I won't be having any sex...the last thing you want to do in drag is have sex. Maybe later in the night when I take all that shit off.




On a semi-related note, my girlfriend is going as a fox. Its such a sexy costume and it has easy access for after the party.

And to make this post related to the thread: I love gay people. I actively talk about the attractiveness of male celebrities with my gay friend Tom lol.


----------



## tacotiklah

Just saw this ridiculous news story:
Deerfield Beach High School: Bizarre allegation made against teacher over gay student - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

So a teacher can "change" a person's sexual orientation by trying to remove the student from an abusive home life?


----------



## Waelstrum

> However, the district cleared her and no action was taken.


This seems to be the most important part in this story. It's nice to see that there are only three crazies in this one.

However, there was this:


> the daughter... Of Hibbs, she said the allegations were far-fetched since a straight woman couldn't make someone become a lesbian.


That seems to be implying that a lesbian could turn a girl gay. *A white person couldn't turn someone black, but a black person could.* /Strawman


----------



## tacotiklah

I don't think she meant that lesbians can turn straights gay either. Probably poor wording, but it doesn't come across to me as intentionally ignorant.


----------



## flint757

Yeah I Imagine it was poor phrasing.


----------



## Waelstrum

Yeah, probably.


----------



## iRaiseTheDead

I think you guys might want to check this out...
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/219227-lesbian-beaten-thanksgiving-day.html


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

iRaiseTheDead said:


> I think you guys might want to check this out...
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/219227-lesbian-beaten-thanksgiving-day.html



Is there a full story of this somewhere? This snippet of info is far from journalistic neutrality.


----------



## Painhawg

A while back, I got my hand slapped on a post about a trans beauty pageant person. After being termed a bigot, which I have never been called, I started to do some research and self analysis. It was a mean spirited and bigoted post, from a position of ignorance. And with respect to whoever called me a bigot, I do apologize. 

Folks should know just from growing up that being different is no cakewalk, and especially being different in a way that turns upside down what is thought of as normal. 

I support fully the right for people to be happy. I have no problem with same sex marriage, I have no problems really with anyone (cept with people who hurt animals and children). 

At the risk of sounding like a meme, I have gay/lesbian friends, and a friend who cross dresses, and is on the verge of taking the plunge fully into becoming a woman. Talking to them about their lifestyle has really been an eye opener, I used to dance around the subject for fear of hitting soft spots, but luckily they are a lot harder than I gave credit for. 

While I am not gay, like anything else that people have the human right to do, I would die in a pile of spent brass to defend those rights. 

With respect to ghstofperdition, I hope you find great happiness and satisfaction in your life and music. Keep pushing like a Spartan warrior, it is getting better.


----------



## tacotiklah

Thanks, and it takes a tremendous amount of character to admit when you mess up. I mess up way more than I like, and I know how much it sucks when you realize you're wrong. 

And I have no problems at all giving my take on what living life as a polyamorous, pansexual transgender is like. As long as the questions are phrased respectfully, I will answer anything people wanna know. Admittedly I am far more relaxed about political correctness now than I was then, but in fairness, I've had much more time to be out and open and comfortable in my "new" life. Trying to have an opinion on things when you've only lived it for a short time isn't smart, as I keep learning. 
But I digress, I'm pretty thick-skinned when it comes to what people ask. The teacher/instructor/supervisor part of my personality can't help but want to correct people when they are wrong about something, so that's where a lot of my personality clashes with people happen. It's nothing personal; just how I am.

And with the permission of your trans friend, I think it'd be cool to have updates on how she's doing. It could be educational for myself as well as others. But that's totally up to her of course.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Supreme Court to take up same-sex marriage


----------



## Sang-Drax

Does anyone know these models?








They have something in common: they're both men. No, they're not transgender; they're biologically and psychologically _men_ (Bosnian Andrej Pejic and Ukrainian Stav Strashko, from L to R) who happen to model both male and female clothing. Weird, isn't it?

The former's sexual orientation is unknown (though I doubt he's straight); the latter is openly gay.


----------



## Curt

Well, I feel like now is as good a time as any to come out to the people I associate with on the internet.

So, I made goal #1 on my list this year to come out to my friends and family that I am Bisexual.

I think I was about 13 when I finally came to terms with my sexuality. Having grown up in a christian household, I felt afraid to tell anyone how I felt concerned my immediate family would treat me differently. Kept it to myself until age 17 when I finally decided that the closest friends should know, basically to get a test reaction.. I was disappointed when the 3 people I thought closest to me dropped out of my life like I disappeared... Only my friend Hailey stuck around, and still helps me cope with the hate.

Which gets me to Jan 2... I had told my mother and stepfather, and as shocked as they were, they support me fully. I guess I would be a little less upset were it not for how my twin brother reacted... He won't speak to me lately, I just hope he comes to realize how much he hurt me. 

My younger brothers(20, and 17), they don't care, they both don't give two shits about anything that doesn't affect them. And most of my friends were just happy to know that I'm happy. 

So, despite some shitty situations, I am ecstatic that I don't feel the need to hide behind a lie anymore.


Thanks for this thread and any support from you guys & girls of SSO.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Welcome to the club, brother.


----------



## Curt

Thanks! The one resolution I actually didn't procrastinate on. xD

Good way to kick off 2013. :3


----------



## tacotiklah

As Jazz said, welcome to the club. Now take off your pants and jacket and help yourself to the buffet. 


Edit: Oh and


----------



## Curt

Those smilies.


----------



## J7string

Oh wow. I don't know how I missed this thread. I am openly gay, and it's cool to see a thread like this.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

J7string said:


> Oh wow. I don't know how I missed this thread. I am openly gay, and it's cool to see a thread like this.


----------



## J7string

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>


 
Indeed.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

J7string said:


> Indeed.


Brutal homosexuality brigade!


----------



## J7string

I am the most brutal and metal of all the homosexuals.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## J7string

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>


 
That's br00tal.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

J7string said:


> That's br00tal.



No one is more brutal and fabulous as Gaahl.


----------



## J7string

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No one is more brutal and fabulous as Gaahl.


 
I'll get there someday. I mean... I'm already pretty fabulous.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

J7string said:


> I'll get there someday. I mean... I'm already pretty fabulous.



We need corpse paint and hair extensions! Stat!


----------



## J7string

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> We need corpse paint and hair extensions! Stat!


 
Just don't get the corpse paint on the hair extentions!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Holy fuck, what the fuck did I start?


----------



## tacotiklah

Finally after a long time of waiting, I got to spend some time with my man tonight. There is now a spring in my step, and I'm pretty sure the next time I fart, it will whistle.


----------



## Curt

Nearly fell out of my chair after that one! xD

I'm in the same boat. LOL


----------



## J7string

I need a man.


----------



## tacotiklah

Men are easier for me to get with for some reason. Other women however; they present a real challenge for me. They friend-zone me almost automatically so it's an uphill battle trying to find the right girl that won't. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have friends, but I'm trying to find that one accepting, open-minded girl.


----------



## J7string

The military complicates things for me.


----------



## Sang-Drax

J7string said:


> The military complicates things for me.



Even with 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' being repealed and all? At least it turns you into a gay boy's wet dream


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

J7string said:


> I need a man.


----------



## Curt

I have a new boyfriend, as of a couple days ago.


That awesome moment when you come out to your friend you have had somewhat of a thing for for a while, and he responds "You don''t know how long I have wanted you to tell me these things. " 

Happy Curt is Happy.


----------



## tacotiklah

I give Curt the Charlie Sheen seal of win right there since that is a pretty rare thing to have happen...


----------



## Curt

I think he has always known, in a way. He has been openly gay for about 6 years now. and for some reason, the majority of my gay friends seemed to assume I was when I never told them I was or wasn't. It was one of those "Fucking finally, dude." moments for most of them. 

He and I have been close friends since my high school freshman year. If that tells you anything. He knows more about me than most of my family.


----------



## Jakke

Curt said:


> I have a new boyfriend, as of a couple days ago.
> 
> 
> That awesome moment when you come out to your friend you have had somewhat of a thing for for a while, and he responds "You don''t know how long I have wanted you to tell me these things. "
> 
> Happy Curt is Happy.



Congrats man! That's some romantic movie-level stuff right there

Tell me, did you also have some sort of humorous misunderstanding, or did you lose a relative and/or pet of his that you in some way tried to replace, hoping that he wouldn't notice?


----------



## Curt

Jakke said:


> Congrats man! That's some romantic movie-level stuff right there
> 
> Tell me, did you also have some sort of humorous misunderstanding, or did you lose a relative and/or pet of his that you in some way tried to replace, hoping that he wouldn't notice?


 
Nope.


----------



## Jakke

Damn...

Now my hopes stands to the adorably quirky and clumsy girl across the road, I'm waiting every day for her to meet an elegant and high powered businessman so that she can turn his world upside down and show him how to live... Preferably during the span of 90 minutes or so.

I'm sorry? 
... Well, because I don't have a TV.


----------



## J7string

That's awesome. Too bad you guys couldn't find those feelings sooner, but better late than never, right?


----------



## Curt

Made my day, Jakke.


----------



## Curt

J7string said:


> That's awesome. Too bad you guys couldn't find those feelings sooner, but better late than never, right?


 
Yep.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah I was gonna say that sounded like something from a romantic comedy. If recreated, someone has to cast Antonio Banderas to play you okay?


----------



## The Reverend

So I was thinking about how odd the world is, and wanted to see if any of you feel the same or have experienced a similar situation to mine: Do people treat you better than usual upon learning about your orientation? I ask because I've experienced people trying too hard to be 'hip' or 'cool' around me because of my race, and I think I've done the same thing to my good friend's younger brother. 

He came out recently, and while it was sort of a non-surprise, I noticed that when I was around him I'd talk about how I'm friends with a lot of gay people, or that I support gay marriage (even though he's really too young to even be thinking seriously about marriage) and I suspect that I came off as too 'in his corner' or pro-gay. I think I offended him a bit. 

What do you guys and girls think?


----------



## Curt

ghstofperdition said:


> Yeah I was gonna say that sounded like something from a romantic comedy. If recreated, someone has to cast Antonio Banderas to play you okay?


Definitely! haha

Or Ryan Gosling. Errmahgerd 


Edit: The Reverend, Some do. But unless it is a regular occurence, I don't think it will bother me. haha


----------



## Jakke

Liam Neeson, that is all


----------



## J7string

EDIT: That last post was a derp... So I'm going to forget all that happened and say Liam Nieson = All.


----------



## Curt

Jakke said:


> Liam Neeson, that is all


 
Him too. 

And I see my brothers act differently about being around other races. particularly with blacks and hispanics. They try to avoid being offensive so hard that they just make it awkward.


----------



## J7string

Let's try this again...



The Reverend said:


> So I was thinking about how odd the world is, and wanted to see if any of you feel the same or have experienced a similar situation to mine: Do people treat you better than usual upon learning about your orientation? I ask because I've experienced people trying too hard to be 'hip' or 'cool' around me because of my race, and I think I've done the same thing to my good friend's younger brother.
> 
> He came out recently, and while it was sort of a non-surprise, I noticed that when I was around him I'd talk about how I'm friends with a lot of gay people, or that I support gay marriage (even though he's really too young to even be thinking seriously about marriage) and I suspect that I came off as too 'in his corner' or pro-gay. I think I offended him a bit.
> 
> What do you guys and girls think?



I haven't noticed anything like that around people I work with or anything... I don't think anyone cares about my orientation because I don't act any differenly about it, or expect people to act or treat me any differently. Plus I bust peoples balls regularly and I don't care if people do the same to me. I think if anyone did try to talk to me and be all, "Hey man, I'm cool with gays. I have gay friends and support this..." I'd probably start to laugh and call them a faggot because I don't need to know all that. I don't know why people choose to do that (being "cool" around people of different race or orientation), it's just annoying that people try so hard to not offend people that they forget that the people they talk to are just people.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well in my case I'm a tougher nut to crack, so to speak. People do try really hard to not offend me, and I suppose I gave them cause for that since I was a bit militant in my beliefs on the subject when I came out. I've relaxed a LOT more since then and when I see people trying super hard not to offend me, I'll tell them to relax and that it's okay to crack a trans joke or something like that around me. Just as long as I don't have people calling me a faggot or going out of their way to be offensive (i.e. attempting to bully me based on my orientation or gender identity) then I have no problems. I'll probably crack a few LGBT related jokes with you. 

But yeah, people that try too hard to not be offensive are about as annoying as those that try too hard to be offensive in general.


----------



## Don Vito

Curt said:


> I have a new boyfriend, as of a couple days ago.
> 
> 
> That awesome moment when you come out to your friend you have had somewhat of a thing for for a while, and he responds "You don''t know how long I have wanted you to tell me these things. "
> 
> Happy Curt is Happy.


Jelly. I had a really close friend I wish I could have come out to as well. He never admitted to being gay, but his step brother made a stupid sex joke involving him and I one time that made him really embarrassed. I always took that as a hunch that he may have had some feelings toward me.

Congrats!


----------



## Curt

Thanks, man. It is the only time the beggining of a relationship of mine has been anything but ordinary. I'm thankful. 

Also, @Jess; one of my trans friends had a guy say to her "I prefer my women like my M&M's... Without nuts." And she laughed about it for a minute only to respond with"But it's fair game when the nuts are removed? right? Talk to me in a couple years."

The guy had no comebacks prepared. lol


----------



## tacotiklah

Curt said:


> Thanks, man. It is the only time the beggining of a relationship of mine has been anything but ordinary. I'm thankful.
> 
> Also, @Jess; one of my trans friends had a guy say to her "I prefer my women like my M&M's... Without nuts." And she laughed about it for a minute only to respond with"But it's fair game when the nuts are removed? right? Talk to me in a couple years."
> 
> The guy had no comebacks prepared. lol



ZING!!!
I like your friend already and I've never met her. 

The part that's really funny is that I'm almost 100% positive that the guy had actually pondered on that very question when she called him on it.


----------



## Loomer

Jakke said:


> Damn...
> 
> Now my hopes stands to the adorably quirky and clumsy girl across the road, I'm waiting every day for her to meet an elegant and high powered businessman so that she can turn his world upside down and show him how to live... Preferably during the span of 90 minutes or so.
> 
> I'm sorry?
> ... Well, because I don't have a TV.



What will you be then, the totally zaaaaaany and quirky stoner roommate who ends up hooking up with a hilaaaariously opposite supporting character (Businessman's uptight career woman sister/friend/boss/whatever) in the ending montage?


----------



## Curt

ghstofperdition said:


> ZING!!!
> I like your friend already and I've never met her.
> 
> The part that's really funny is that I'm almost 100% positive that the guy had actually pondered on that very question when she called him on it.


 He had to have. haha
Tina is freaking cute! Like, you would hardly know she was born male if you met her and I didn't introduce her.

She is a quick-witted girl. Have to admire that about her. lol


----------



## Sang-Drax

The Reverend said:


> So I was thinking about how odd the world is, and wanted to see if any of you feel the same or have experienced a similar situation to mine: Do people treat you better than usual upon learning about your orientation? I ask because I've experienced people trying too hard to be 'hip' or 'cool' around me because of my race, and I think I've done the same thing to my good friend's younger brother.
> 
> He came out recently, and while it was sort of a non-surprise, I noticed that when I was around him I'd talk about how I'm friends with a lot of gay people, or that I support gay marriage (even though he's really too young to even be thinking seriously about marriage) and I suspect that I came off as too 'in his corner' or pro-gay. I think I offended him a bit.
> 
> What do you guys and girls think?



That's just how things evolve, I think. My older friends are much more careful with how to deal with me. They've grown in an apparent homosexual-free environment and only got ridof their latent inherited homophobia in their adult lives. I know they're struggling to find a balance between normality and excessive respect. That said, I don't get offended at all when people treat my like that. They're doing their best! It's gonna take a while until everyone just 'forgets' about one's orientation.

The younger the friend, the more naturally they deal with it. When I came out to a - at the time - 18-year old friend, she said, "Yeah, so?". She honestly didn't know why I was telling her that. It gave me some hope in mankind


----------



## Jakke

Apologies if this is considered NSFW, but I love this










^Yeah, this is what I do when I should be sleeping. I watch gay dinosaurs and listen to Bette Midler's "The Rose" over and over.


Now, since you fgts are my main source of information about gayness (and also my ticket to keep living after the gay revolution), is radical homosexuality in any way related to the "malicious gays" so feared by some republicans?


----------



## tacotiklah

Q: What do you call a big gay dinosaur?
A: Mega-Sore-Ass.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## J7string

I really despise republicans and ignorant Christians.


----------



## The Reverend

I shared that gay T-Rex picture on Facebook, everyone liked it. I can't believe any Christian group really would say such ignorant things such as most homosexuals are serial killers. Really? 

Does anyone here watch Peep Show? There's an episode I just watched where the main character has a bromance with a boss at work and is wondering if he's gay or not, but it's just so humorous to me. He's watching gay porn and really trying to get into it, but he just can't, which I find hilarious considering some people think the reverse will get gay folks to go straight.


----------



## Jakke

^I'll let you in on a secret, it's apparently from a satire page on Facebook.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Jakke said:


> (...)
> 
> Now, since you fgts are my main source of information about gayness (and also my ticket to keep living after the gay revolution), is radical homosexuality in any way related to the "malicious gays" so feared by some republicans?





I'm not aware of these gay subgenres. I'm a melodeath/progressive gay myself.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Melodic hardcore gay ftw.


----------



## J7string

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Melodic hardcore gay ftw.


 
It's all about post gay.


----------



## tacotiklah

Psh, gay is too mainstream and socially acceptable. It's all about polyamorous trans pansexual banjofunkstepjazzcountrydjentcore.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BLABBERMOUTH.NET - FOR TODAY Guitarist: 'Homosexuality Is A Sin'

Can't say I was a fan of this band...


----------



## tacotiklah

Homophobic christian rock band member? Shocking. 

Seriously though, anything involving religion and LGBTs is gonna end badly 9/10 times.


----------



## Sang-Drax

I'd never heard of this band anyway


----------



## Jakke

Who are they, and why should I care what those morons think?


----------



## Don Vito

I've heard of them, but only because I grew up in the "breakdowns for Jesus" scene.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

kennedyblake said:


> I've heard of them, but only because I grew up in the "breakdowns for Jesus" scene.



Same. My brother used to listen to them religiously (pun intended). He was, for some reason, shocked when he read that.


----------



## Mexi

I've been volunteering at my university's Pride library since the fall and it's been a really eye-opening experience. the LGBTQ community is just so welcoming and compassionate, the amount of gender/ethnic/religious diversity that is apparent is really something else. More importantly, as a straight guy with very few LGBTQ friends, I felt it was necessary to really educate myself and and to become more tolerant (not that I was bigoted, but a lack of understanding makes it more difficult to display genuine empathy and compassion) Anyways, just thought I'd share that with you guys.

Pride Library Home

As an aside, I've found LGBTQ literature to be quite fascinating and informative (found an interesting stack of books here on tantric sex lol)


----------



## J7string

LGBT Christian nonsense really has gotten old. Certainly there are more pressing matters at hand, but I guess some people's focus just doesn't exist when it comes to these things.


----------



## tacotiklah

I'm wondering if at any point any of these religious people ever stop to think to themselves, "Hey, is what I'm saying causing people to want to learn more about my religion, or am I causing them to want to hate my religion?"

I'm starting to doubt that they are since they seem to be blind to anything other than their own bigotry.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Apparently he quit (or was fired from) For Today after that rant.


----------



## J7string

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Apparently he quit (or was fired from) For Today after that rant.


 
One word: Good.


----------



## Danukenator

I'm sure some of the other band members harbor the same feelings but do so privately. 


I can just imagine a band mate opening up Twitter and saying "The FUCK!" I know the saying about how all publicity is... but stuff like this rarely ends well.


----------



## Jakke

As soon as he starts out with "lifestyle"... I instantly imagined that the apology might not be as sincere as broadcasted


----------



## flint757

It probably wasn't. It's like the _"I accept these people, but I disapprove"_ speak. I don't know why, but that irritates me more than outright bigotry. Maybe because you can't call them a bigot.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

The worst thing about these kind of people is that they are the ones that cause problems. Outright bigots arent a problem really because most people know right away but these people are wolves dressed like sheep.


----------



## Jakke

Interestingly that was something someone said about Swedes (he didn't like us). We are racist assholes out to get him, but we are too polite to be called on it
I thought it was kind of fun...


Yeah the whole _"I don't mind the fags unless they do any faggy shit in front of me"_ just sounds extremely stupid to me


----------



## groph

Jakke said:


> Yeah the whole _"I don't mind the fags unless they do any faggy shit in front of me"_ just sounds extremely stupid to me



I hate that line. I know people often don't like public displays of affection in general but you never hear any misgivings about people doing "straight shit" in front of people. It's as if gay people have teh buttsecks in the middle of a busy intersection all the time, I swear to god I've only ever seen that a couple of times in my life.

Also, Friday night I was at the watering hole with some friends, and a friend of a friend was there. This guy, we'll call him M, is one of these try-hard masculinity kinds of guys who, at 20+ years of age still feels the need to be homophobic for some goddamn reason. I can see he's more or less a decent dude but I think he's an asshole. Any guy who refers to a girl as "definitely DTF" is automatically a giant asshole in my books.

So we were talking about burgers, and I say one of the best burgers I've ever had was at a gay Irish pub in Toronto - I think it was O'Grady's on Church Street if anyone's familiar. Of course he started engaging in mental gymnastics trying to wrap his head around a "gay Irish pub" so I reassured him they exist, and they're basically Irish style pubs in a gay community.

Buddy says "I'm not sure if I would trust the food there"

I say "I'm sure people jack off into burgers at McDonald's more often than at a gay pub."

"Fair point"

Yes, fair fucking point. Fuck that guy.






So anyway, what's new and good in this thread? I've always wanted to pop in from time to time but we're 20 pages in so if someone could give me a tl;dr that'd be greeeeeat.


----------



## Don Vito

never mind i shouldn't drunk post


----------



## Sang-Drax

340,000 protesters _against_ gay marriage in Paris, according to French police.

That is so sad. People go out of their way to block a bill that will not make any difference in their lives. What annoys me the most is how these foul people hide behind children to cover their repulsive bigotry.

Fuck it. As it is, children can already have a gay parent. According to wikipedia, single gay people may adopt. They will live with a same-sex partner who might as well treat that child as if his/hers. However, the partner isn't legally his parent.

How the fuck does that protect the child?

It's always the same ridiculous speech, the same contradictory ideas, anywhere in the world, it seems. We're not that far away from the middle ages


----------



## tacotiklah

groph said:


> I hate that line. I know people often don't like public displays of affection in general but you never hear any misgivings about people doing "straight shit" in front of people. It's as if gay people have teh buttsecks in the middle of a busy intersection all the time, I swear to god I've only ever seen that a couple of times in my life.
> 
> Also, Friday night I was at the watering hole with some friends, and a friend of a friend was there. This guy, we'll call him M, is one of these try-hard masculinity kinds of guys who, at 20+ years of age still feels the need to be homophobic for some goddamn reason. I can see he's more or less a decent dude but I think he's an asshole. Any guy who refers to a girl as "definitely DTF" is automatically a giant asshole in my books.
> 
> So we were talking about burgers, and I say one of the best burgers I've ever had was at a gay Irish pub in Toronto - I think it was O'Grady's on Church Street if anyone's familiar. Of course he started engaging in mental gymnastics trying to wrap his head around a "gay Irish pub" so I reassured him they exist, and they're basically Irish style pubs in a gay community.
> 
> Buddy says "I'm not sure if I would trust the food there"
> 
> I say "I'm sure people jack off into burgers at McDonald's more often than at a gay pub."
> 
> "Fair point"
> 
> Yes, fair fucking point. Fuck that guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So anyway, what's new and good in this thread? I've always wanted to pop in from time to time but we're 20 pages in so if someone could give me a tl;dr that'd be greeeeeat.





It was 20 pages of things like gay jokes, my raping other members, and discussing gender identity with drakkartyrannis. 

So shenanigans were had.


----------



## Waelstrum

groph said:


> I hate that line. I know people often don't like public displays of affection in general but you never hear any misgivings about people doing "straight shit" in front of people. It's as if gay people have teh buttsecks in the middle of a busy intersection all the time, I swear to god I've only ever seen that a couple of times in my life.



I get very uncomfortable when people do "straight shit" in public (to the same degree as any other "shit") but apparently I'm a prude.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well as long as they keep that "straight" stuff to themselves and don't do it around me, I'm okay with it. Keep that shit at home.


----------



## Waelstrum

Bloody straights, I wouldn't mind if they weren't so in-your-face about it.


----------



## tacotiklah

All that peen-in-the-vah-jay-jay stuff. *shudder*
It's not right I tell you.


----------



## tacotiklah

Read this and it got my blood boiling:
Drunk D.C. Cop Gets Off Easy After Shooting 3 Transgender Women | Alternet

People ask me why I'm so uptight about this shit, but they don't see the other half of it. Seeing this kind of unreasonable violence makes me sick to my stomach...


----------



## Curt

Fuck that shit... *I don't want to live on this planet anymore meme goes here*


----------



## Curt

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>


 This is now the background image on my phone.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

ghstofperdition said:


> Read this and it got my blood boiling:
> Drunk D.C. Cop Gets Off Easy After Shooting 3 Transgender Women | Alternet



I don't even know anymore.


----------



## Jakke

Saw this and thought it was a level of stupid all by itself:
Get out of my gay bar, straight girl

Statistically speaking, straight people are in majority at regular bars, so with the logical continuation of this proposed policy... Wouldn't that make banning of gay people from straight bars perfectly resonable?
I wouldn't want to call it "heterophobia", because it's obviously not about fear.. I would instead say that it breathes a disturbing contempt for straight people, which is too bad.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

I feel it could just be a clever ruse to show people how ridiculous it is on all ends.


----------



## tacotiklah

Wait the girl that wrote that article is gay and wants gay equality, but flips shit when a straight girl enters a gay bar? 

Ebonic speech aside, that's hypocritical and a grand example of why we lose out on supporters.


----------



## groph

Jakke said:


> Saw this and thought it was a level of stupid all by itself:
> Get out of my gay bar, straight girl
> 
> Statistically speaking, straight people are in majority at regular bars, so with the logical continuation of this proposed policy... *Wouldn't that make banning of gay people from straight bars perfectly resonable*?
> I wouldn't want to call it "heterophobia", because it's obviously not about fear.. I would instead say that it breathes a disturbing contempt for straight people, which is too bad.



No, I don't think so. Because we've got this lovely system of heteronormativity set up and non-straights are the "other" (everyone is assumed to be straight from the get-go), non-straights basically need their own places to interact in a sexual way like straight people do. When you can't be public about your sexuality for risk of, oh, maybe being beaten to death in the street by a bunch of frat bros, it's great having a place where you can be public about your sexuality amongst like-oriented people.



ghstofperdition said:


> Wait the girl that wrote that article is gay and wants gay equality, but flips shit when a straight girl enters a gay bar?
> 
> Ebonic speech aside, that's hypocritical and a grand example of why we lose out on supporters.



I blame straight guys for this. We've essentially gone and ruined sex for everybody. We creep on girls in bars so badly they feel so uncomfortable they have to flee to gay bars to avoid being hit on, while simultaneously occupying and maybe even re-appropriating a space designed for people who already can't participate in the society said straight girls can participate in.

I'm actually mostly serious about this, I kind of do blame straight guys.


EDIT: And I feel like I can TOTALLY see how some straight people want to go to gay bars. My favorite place downtown is a gay-friendly cabaret and I had a fucking wicked time in Zippers in Toronto, the gayest club in the fucking world. It had a piano bar with a guy taking requests for songs and then around back it was disco night, mostly shirtless dudes and lots of heavy petting and I had a blast. I'm sure it would be a problem if tons of straight dudes started flocking to gay bars but it's not so bad if there's one or two straight guys in the bar. Once we get in numbers is when we understandably start overstaying our welcome. I'm fine with guys hitting on me, I have no impulse to prove my masculinity by "punching the queer" but I highly doubt I'll ever fuck a dude. I had a great time because the atmosphere just seemed friendlier and I didn't feel obligated to hit on women ...as there literally weren't any. There's a big problem in "straight culture" I think that causes a shit-rolling-downhill kind of effect I guess.


----------



## tacotiklah

+rep for you Groph as I completely agree.


----------



## Sang-Drax

groph said:


> No, I don't think so. Because we've got this lovely system of heteronormativity set up and non-straights are the "other" (everyone is assumed to be straight from the get-go), non-straights basically need their own places to interact in a sexual way like straight people do. When you can't be public about your sexuality for risk of, oh, maybe being beaten to death in the street by a bunch of frat bros, it's great having a place where you can be public about your sexuality amongst like-oriented people.



While I do agree with this explanation, I don't think segregation is good for anyone. If tolerant straight people want to be around and interact, how could that possibly be detrimental? I mean, the one thing I see as a sign of evolution in Rio is the increasing number of nightclubs where one can see gay and straight couples flirting or making out without being bothered. 

And, of course, where a non-straight person can accidently hit on a straight person and not be punched in the face.


----------



## Loomer

Gay bars are seriously the most fun places in the entire universe. It's been proven. They've done studies and science-y stuff on this.


----------



## groph

Sang-Drax said:


> While I do agree with this explanation, I don't think segregation is good for anyone. If tolerant straight people want to be around and interact, how could that possibly be detrimental? I mean, the one thing I see as a sign of evolution in Rio is the increasing number of nightclubs where one can see gay and straight couples flirting or making out without being bothered.
> 
> And, of course, where a non-straight person can accidently hit on a straight person and not be punched in the face.



In this sense, "tolerant" straight people are the ones who enjoy the most privilege to go and do as they please. A stereotypical racist, bigoted redneck wearing overalls and a Confederate Flag wouldn't be allowed into a gay bar (for the sake of this argument) but a "worldly," educated, liberal, and tolerant heterosexual individual would be, and no they probably wouldn't create chaos in the gay bar but they're still participating in a social environment in which only they can participate in - gay people can't "be gay" in a straight bar, at least not in the same way they can in gay bars, they can't express themselves in the same ways, the communities are just totally different. A white dude going to Africa to help a community build homes or schools has the luxury of traveling back to Canada or wherever and back to his life of obscene wealth while the villagers in Africa have no way out. A white person can watch a blaxploitation film and feel a little more culturally sensitive and maybe even become more entitled to act their white privilege out on account of this, while black people LIVE the reality the movie is portraying, they can't escape racism whereas white people can. Is it a bad thing for white people to aid Africa and watch blaxploitation films? No, but I think it's useful to be aware of the power dynamic there and not to act in an oppressive way.

Maybe heterosexual people should bring it on themselves to change straight bars to be not just tolerant, but accepting (huge difference) of non-heterosexual people, probably like these clubs in Rio that you're talking about. That's great.

Then it could be argued, and this is a point I've only very recently come across in _The Social Construction of Sexuality_ by Steven Seidman, that looking at "sexuality" as if it's even a thing is maybe not a good approach. Aren't you gay because you're _not straight_? Or straight because you're not gay? The creation of these categories, or these _identities_ are inherently exclusionary and hardly liberatory - you're not liberated if you're gay and therefore can't have sex with women, because you have to act out your identity. There are gay men and "men who have sex with men" but aren't gay, what? Why can't we just look at sex as possible behaviour that's rooted in desire, or simply just wanting to do something - attaching an identity and moral values to behaviour winds up creating all sorts of problems and divisive politics. Sex right now kind of amounts to "okay, you go here and you go here and you go there because you all stick it in different places. Don't mix with each other."


----------



## AngstRiddenDreams

I come from an extremely redneck place and I consider myself very tolerant and accepting. Regardless, I don't like seeing straight or gay people going overboard with PDA.  Kinda weird.


----------



## Jakke

groph said:


> In this sense, "tolerant" straight people are the ones who enjoy the most privilege to go and do as they please. A stereotypical racist, bigoted redneck wearing overalls and a Confederate Flag wouldn't be allowed into a gay bar (for the sake of this argument) but a "worldly," educated, liberal, and tolerant heterosexual individual would be, and no they probably wouldn't create chaos in the gay bar but they're still participating in a social environment in which only they can participate in - gay people can't "be gay" in a straight bar, at least not in the same way they can in gay bars, they can't express themselves in the same ways, the communities are just totally different. A white dude going to Africa to help a community build homes or schools has the luxury of traveling back to Canada or wherever and back to his life of obscene wealth while the villagers in Africa have no way out. A white person can watch a blaxploitation film and feel a little more culturally sensitive and maybe even become more entitled to act their white privilege out on account of this, while black people LIVE the reality the movie is portraying, they can't escape racism whereas white people can. Is it a bad thing for white people to aid Africa and watch blaxploitation films? No, but I think it's useful to be aware of the power dynamic there and not to act in an oppressive way.



Man, it sounds like you want to be a white knight here, and that's okay, but we are still talking about discrimination based on sexual preference that would have been seen as unacceptable had it been reversed. 

Furthermore, you are also stereotyping "being gay" to certain degrees, they can't be "as gay" in "normal bars" as they can be in gay bars. What is being gay to you? 
Because to me being gay is feeling love for someone of the same gender, and I can assure you that in any bar in any major city in the western world, gay people are free to show their affection. Fuck, I see it regularly when I'm out clubbing or "barring", and I go to "normal bars"
It's cool that you want to side with people you percieve as oppressed, but please do not invent new ways for them to be victims. 

As for your whole PC thing about blaxploitation and racism, I'm not touching that.




groph said:


> Maybe heterosexual people should bring it on themselves to change straight bars to be not just tolerant, but accepting (huge difference) of non-heterosexual people, probably like these clubs in Rio that you're talking about. That's great.



As said, any bar in any area that accepts homosexuality also accepts public display of affection, as long as it accepts straight displays of affection (because sometimes that is frowned upon)




groph said:


> Then it could be argued, and this is a point I've only very recently come across in _The Social Construction of Sexuality_ by Steven Seidman, that looking at "sexuality" as if it's even a thing is maybe not a good approach. Aren't you gay because you're _not straight_? Or straight because you're not gay? The creation of these categories, or these _identities_ are inherently exclusionary and hardly liberatory - you're not liberated if you're gay and therefore can't have sex with women, because you have to act out your identity. There are gay men and "men who have sex with men" but aren't gay, what? Why can't we just look at sex as possible behaviour that's rooted in desire, or simply just wanting to do something - attaching an identity and moral values to behaviour winds up creating all sorts of problems and divisive politics. Sex right now kind of amounts to "okay, you go here and you go here and you go there because you all stick it in different places. Don't mix with each other."



Social constructionist bullshit. Our sexuality is not defined because of is not, but because of what is. Someone who is gay is gay because they are attracted to the same gender, not because they are not straight. We have medical mechanisms that explain how our sexuality is formed, and unfortunate for the social constructionists, it's more or less determined in the womb.
Deconstructing why someone who is gay is called gay is like looking mysterious and ask "_why is a chair really called a chair, and is not really a chair a chair because it's not a table?_"

Gender as social constructs is a pretty soundly disproven hypothesis. It has been shown in medical research how gender identity is present in very, very young children, and this also is in regards to sexuality. Any pre-school teacher or kindergarden teacher can tell you that they know from a very early age what children will turn out to be gay come puberty, and there is also medical research that supports this

What we are seeing now (hopefully) is the swan song of the postmodern social constructionism, and I'm happy for that, because a more pretentious and patronizing way of thinking has not existed in the thousands of years of human philosophy.

A very interesting series of documentaries about social constructionism is called "Brainwash" (Hjernevask in Norwegian), and nice as I am, I will post a link to where they are (they are release on Vimeo), and there even are english subtitles. If there is a password needed, it's hjernevask.
Hjernevask


----------



## groph

Jakke, first off a &#8220;white knight&#8221; is a derogatory word people throw at guys who are sticking up for girls/women who are having a bunch of sexist bullshit thrown at them in an attempt to get laid.

And no, I&#8217;m not gay; I don&#8217;t know what &#8220;being gay&#8221; is like nor is it good practice to assume &#8220;gayness&#8221; is the same the world over. I&#8217;m just saying that homophobia is totally still out there and there is a risk that openly gay people may not be well accepted at &#8220;straight bars&#8221; or what is perceived as &#8220;gay behavior&#8221; might elicit a different reaction than what is &#8220;straight behavior.&#8221; I&#8217;ve never seen that discrimination happen, that doesn&#8217;t mean it definitely does or definitely doesn&#8217;t happen. Regardless there are numerous accounts of LGBTQ people who were targeted because of their sexuality, this homophobia existed long before I commented in this thread, I&#8217;m not &#8220;inventing new ways to make them victims&#8221; at least I definitely hope not. It&#8217;s probably true that some gays bars and straight bars are different in significant ways and I&#8217;m not an authority on the matter so I&#8217;m better advised to not make any kind of sweeping comments about &#8220;how gay bars are&#8221; or &#8220;how straight bars are&#8221; or anything like that. I apologize if I came off as appropriating in some way.

The Blaxploitation and racism thing was just meant as an example and it&#8217;s disappointing that you dismissed it as a &#8220;PC&#8221; thing. You know how there are some white people out there who seem to go to great lengths to want to tell black jokes around black people? It&#8217;s in an effort to be accepted by &#8220;them&#8221; but isn&#8217;t it weird anyway? I basically meant that white dude X watches a couple of Blaxploitation films and they&#8217;re suddenly some kind of expert on black counterculture and American race relations.

Social constructionist BULLSHIT? Says who? Yes, to an extent a chair is a chair because it isn&#8217;t a table; that&#8217;s getting at how we understand chairs and tables as abstract concepts, not necessarily as things that &#8220;actually exist&#8221; and it seems something similar can be said of gender and sexuality. Yes, there are biological mechanisms that exist &#8211; 19th century sexology has been working on that for quite some time. Social sciences and &#8220;hard sciences&#8221; are at odds, I get that, and I don&#8217;t want to say &#8220;Well yeah, of COURSE the medical sciences would disprove social constructionist theory because they&#8217;re only concerned with biology and they ignore the possibility of social factors entirely!&#8221; I don&#8217;t know enough to effectively argue against this point but I question social constructionist theory being &#8220;soundly disproven.&#8221; On what grounds? If evidence for gender identity has been found in very young children we have to be A) certain that this evidence is indeed evidence for gender identity in the first place, like, what are they counting as evidence, and B) it&#8217;s the same for all children, crossculturally. Point B) is already pretty shaky because there&#8217;s also been lots of work documenting gender expression in many cultures and &#8220;male or female&#8221; isn&#8217;t how it is all around the world. Different cultures also don&#8217;t equate sexual behavior with gender so I do maintain it&#8217;s not a matter of biology alone. 
By the time a kid&#8217;s reached kindergarten age, they&#8217;ve already been saturated with cultural messages about gender, biological sex, sexual behavior and the like so I&#8217;d exercise a bit of a caution if I were one of these kindergarten teachers predicting who is gay and who isn&#8217;t. At that point, the &#8220;nurture&#8221; has had enough time to work its magic, enough so that it might obscure the &#8220;nature&#8221; side of things, making it hard to make a categorical statement either way.

Can boot fetishes be explained in biological terms? If a boot fetish &#8220;isn&#8217;t really sexuality&#8221; well, tell that to people with boot fetishes!


----------



## Jakke

groph said:


> Jakke, first off a &#8220;white knight&#8221; is a derogatory word people throw at guys who are sticking up for girls/women who are having a bunch of sexist bullshit thrown at them in an attempt to get laid.



I know what white knight means, and on further reflection, I retract my statement.



groph said:


> And no, I&#8217;m not gay; I don&#8217;t know what &#8220;being gay&#8221; is like nor is it good practice to assume &#8220;gayness&#8221; is the same the world over. I&#8217;m just saying that homophobia is totally still out there and there is a risk that openly gay people may not be well accepted at &#8220;straight bars&#8221; or what is perceived as &#8220;gay behavior&#8221; might elicit a different reaction than what is &#8220;straight behavior.&#8221; I&#8217;ve never seen that discrimination happen, that doesn&#8217;t mean it definitely does or definitely doesn&#8217;t happen. Regardless there are numerous accounts of LGBTQ people who were targeted because of their sexuality, this homophobia existed long before I commented in this thread, I&#8217;m not &#8220;inventing new ways to make them victims&#8221; at least I definitely hope not. It&#8217;s probably true that some gays bars and straight bars are different in significant ways and I&#8217;m not an authority on the matter so I&#8217;m better advised to not make any kind of sweeping comments about &#8220;how gay bars are&#8221; or &#8220;how straight bars are&#8221; or anything like that. I apologize if I came off as appropriating in some way.



I'm straight, and I know what "being gay" is. It's when you fall in love with and feel sexual attraction to members of your own sex, it's just that simple. I don't know how it is to be gay, but there is a definition to what gay is.



groph said:


> The Blaxploitation and racism thing was just meant as an example and it&#8217;s disappointing that you dismissed it as a &#8220;PC&#8221; thing. You know how there are some white people out there who seem to go to great lengths to want to tell black jokes around black people? It&#8217;s in an effort to be accepted by &#8220;them&#8221; but isn&#8217;t it weird anyway? I basically meant that white dude X watches a couple of Blaxploitation films and they&#8217;re suddenly some kind of expert on black counterculture and American race relations.



Yes, and there are idiots in every community. Believe it or not, there are actually black people living today who want nothing more than to murder you and me because of our skin colour, but it would of course be extremely foolish to draw any conclusions about a big group of people based on the few, right? 




groph said:


> Social constructionist BULLSHIT? Says who? Yes, to an extent a chair is a chair because it isn&#8217;t a table; that&#8217;s getting at how we understand chairs and tables as abstract concepts, not necessarily as things that &#8220;actually exist&#8221; and it seems something similar can be said of gender and sexuality. Yes, there are biological mechanisms that exist &#8211; 19th century sexology has been working on that for quite some time. Social sciences and &#8220;hard sciences&#8221; are at odds, I get that, and I don&#8217;t want to say &#8220;Well yeah, of COURSE the medical sciences would disprove social constructionist theory because they&#8217;re only concerned with biology and they ignore the possibility of social factors entirely!&#8221; I don&#8217;t know enough to effectively argue against this point but I question social constructionist theory being &#8220;soundly disproven.&#8221; On what grounds? If evidence for gender identity has been found in very young children we have to be A) certain that this evidence is indeed evidence for gender identity in the first place, like, what are they counting as evidence, and B) it&#8217;s the same for all children, crossculturally. Point B) is already pretty shaky because there&#8217;s also been lots of work documenting gender expression in many cultures and &#8220;male or female&#8221; isn&#8217;t how it is all around the world. Different cultures also don&#8217;t equate sexual behavior with gender so I do maintain it&#8217;s not a matter of biology alone.
> By the time a kid&#8217;s reached kindergarten age, they&#8217;ve already been saturated with cultural messages about gender, biological sex, sexual behavior and the like so I&#8217;d exercise a bit of a caution if I were one of these kindergarten teachers predicting who is gay and who isn&#8217;t. At that point, the &#8220;nurture&#8221; has had enough time to work its magic, enough so that it might obscure the &#8220;nature&#8221; side of things, making it hard to make a categorical statement either way.



Yes, it is social constructionist bullshit when it directly contradicts what is observable science that can be verified through experimentation, it doesn't matter if it contradicts natural science (as it happens to do right now) or social sciences. What often is hard to grasp for people who are not from a natural science background (I assume that you are not, please correct me if I am wrong), is that there are such things as objectively observable facts and that when two hypotheses are mutually exclusive, only one of them can be correct.
Throwing your hands up and saying "well, natural sciences and social sciences will always be at odds" is a cop-out very convenient when the experimentation supports one side.
Medical research has been able to show that the area in our brain that governs our sexuality (which is different between men and woman, straight and gay) is such an area that develops in the fetal stage. What does this tell us, that gender identity and sexual orientation still are social constructs?
No, these two ideas are mutually exclusive, you can't be both born gay and become gay because of societal expectations. One hypothesis is founded on hard peer-reviewed research from several researchers, and the other one is not. Any person with a shred of intellectual honesty adjusts his/her views based on the scientific consensus, and the consensus currently points to social constructionism in this case being a misguided kumbaya-attempt by sociologists to make everyone "get along".

If you want I can dig out some hard-science papers on early childhood gender-identity. I recall the study I'm thinking of being made on four month-olds.


And building on the chair-analogy. No, a chair is not a chair because it's not a table, it's a chair because of its chair-like properties. The majority of things existing in this world are not tables, so using that qualifier to determine the identity of an object is ridiculous and pointless.




groph said:


> Can boot fetishes be explained in biological terms? If a boot fetish &#8220;isn&#8217;t really sexuality&#8221; well, tell that to people with boot fetishes!



A paraphilia is not a sexual orientation
Paraphilia: causes and treatment


----------



## Sang-Drax

groph said:


> (...) but they're still participating in a social environment in which only they can participate in - gay people can't "be gay" in a straight bar, at least not in the same way they can in gay bars, they can't express themselves in the same ways, the communities are just totally different.



Groph, I really, really appreciate people like you (and so many others in this thread) who back the causes of a class of people who are different from themselves. But sometimes we go too far ahead.

I know I can't display public affection in certain straight bars. If I'm in a bar, I want to be allowed to do it - and that's all. I couldn't care less if there are straight people around me, and it matters even less whether they have more places they could go and 'be straight' or not. It's not like it's a competition!

Actually, the way I see it, the more straight people going to a gay bar and trying to fraternize, the better. These are the people who sees us are humans, and for that I want them to be around.

In the case of blacks, I can understand (although not agree) why the attempt to preserve African roots could demand segregation in certain occasions, but there's no such thing as gay culture. We can sprout anywhere, from any culture. We have no common ancestor. Although it's true that, say, some genres of music or some dressing habits are in a certain way more common among gays, it's not enough to demand segregation or anything. I just can't see it.



groph said:


> Maybe heterosexual people should bring it on themselves to change straight bars to be not just tolerant, but accepting (huge difference) of non-heterosexual people, probably like these clubs in Rio that you're talking about. That's great.



Well, tolerance relates to behavior. Acceptance means actually changing people's minds, and that takes a few generations, I think. I demand acceptance from my friends; from strangers, tolerance is enough


----------



## tacotiklah

Sweet! Bf wants to meet up Monday. Sounds like he is getting better about spending time with me. I could use the lovin' too. My moves are getting a bit rusty.


----------



## groph

Jakke said:


> Yes, it is social constructionist bullshit when it directly contradicts what is observable science that can be verified through experimentation, it doesn't matter if it contradicts natural science (as it happens to do right now) or social sciences. What often is hard to grasp for people who are not from a natural science background (I assume that you are not, please correct me if I am wrong), is that there are such things as objectively observable facts and that when two hypotheses are mutually exclusive, only one of them can be correct.
> Throwing your hands up and saying "well, natural sciences and social sciences will always be at odds" is a cop-out very convenient when the experimentation supports one side.
> Medical research has been able to show that the area in our brain that governs our sexuality (which is different between men and woman, straight and gay) is such an area that develops in the fetal stage. What does this tell us, that gender identity and sexual orientation still are social constructs?
> No, these two ideas are mutually exclusive, you can't be both born gay and become gay because of societal expectations. One hypothesis is founded on hard peer-reviewed research from several researchers, and the other one is not. Any person with a shred of intellectual honesty adjusts his/her views based on the scientific consensus, and the consensus currently points to social constructionism in this case being a misguided kumbaya-attempt by sociologists to make everyone "get along".
> 
> If you want I can dig out some hard-science papers on early childhood gender-identity. I recall the study I'm thinking of being made on four month-olds.
> 
> 
> And building on the chair-analogy. No, a chair is not a chair because it's not a table, it's a chair because of its chair-like properties. The majority of things existing in this world are not tables, so using that qualifier to determine the identity of an object is ridiculous and pointless.



I still think you or probably even both of us are polarizing this debate too much. It appears that gender and probably sexuality also have some basis in biology what with there being transgendered people and all. If it was _entirely_ socially constructed then we'd have to restructure our understanding of gender.

I'm not sure where I stand personally, if I had to pick yeah, I'm more on the "nurture" side of things and I do consider my "hard science" skills and quantitative evidence skills to be pretty anemic compared to qualitative and critical sociological stuff that is more philosophical than "scientific" - even calling sociology a science is considered problematic to some.

I wasn't quoting (loosely) from that book as if to say that it's my hard-lined opinion or anything but calling it "bullshit" is dismissive and pretty confrontational language to use here. I agree with you though, it definitely is intellectually dishonest to believe something else in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence and I do understand how the scientific method works and I think it's a pretty good model we've developed as long as we adhere to it. I also think it might not be the best model for _all _sorts of knowledge but I must say this with a great deal of caution lest we start believing in snake oil because "Hey, it might be true!"

I'm not from a natural science background, and I am aware that there are objective, observable truths. I can believe the Earth is flat all day and that won't change the truth.

I'd like to know what those studies are counting as evidence of gender expression, my contention being that (maybe) during the process of interpreting the evidence the researchers are inadvertently letting their own social biases seep into the results. Isn't it true that if biology is totally behind something, then it's true cross-culturally? And if biology isn't totally behind gender identity then it's possible that gender can be understood in biological terms and social terms, they're not mutually exclusive.

And maybe we'd do a better service to each other if we were more specific? I was talking about sexuality, so sexual behaviour, and you were talking about gender? How are you defining gender here?



Sang-Drax said:


> Groph, I really, really appreciate people like you (and so many others in this thread) who back the causes of a class of people who are different from themselves. But sometimes we go too far ahead.
> 
> I know I can't display public affection in certain straight bars. If I'm in a bar, I want to be allowed to do it - and that's all. I couldn't care less if there are straight people around me, and it matters even less whether they have more places they could go and 'be straight' or not. It's not like it's a competition!
> 
> Actually, the way I see it, the more straight people going to a gay bar and trying to fraternize, the better. These are the people who sees us are humans, and for that I want them to be around.
> 
> In the case of blacks, I can understand (although not agree) why the attempt to preserve African roots could demand segregation in certain occasions, but there's no such thing as gay culture. We can sprout anywhere, from any culture. We have no common ancestor. Although it's true that, say, some genres of music or some dressing habits are in a certain way more common among gays, it's not enough to demand segregation or anything. I just can't see it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, tolerance relates to behavior. Acceptance means actually changing people's minds, and that takes a few generations, I think. I demand acceptance from my friends; from strangers, tolerance is enough



And maybe my environment of Nova Scotia (Halifax) is more homophobic than where you live. It's also possible that I don't know as much as I think I do, but generally I feel like I wouldn't want to be gay and live here.

Point taken though, this is an example of why it's sometimes better to listen then engage in verbal diarrhea. To boil it down, my concern was that maybe straight people can encroach on "gay spaces" and overstay our welcomes. Like you said, you have to moderate your expression depending on the bar/club you're at for risk of some kind of retribution. I don't. I also can't accurately predict where homophobia would be more prevalent or not so maybe I'm being excessively cautious and maybe even a bit parental towards gays here - you can look out for yourselves and apparently I need a reminder of that sometimes.



EDIT: And Jakke, yeah the chair analogy is pretty ricidulous, if it were totally true I am literally surrounded by "chairs" right now, and I am myself a chair.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

This thread is pretty gay IMO


----------



## groph

Stealthdjentstic said:


> This thread is pretty gay IMO





It is now 23% more gay


----------



## Sang-Drax

groph said:


> And maybe my environment of Nova Scotia (Halifax) is more homophobic than where you live. It's also possible that I don't know as much as I think I do, but generally I feel like I wouldn't want to be gay and live here.



And here I was thinking any moderately large town in Canada would be a safe haven for gays


----------



## Sunyata

Sang-Drax said:


> And here I was thinking any moderately large town in Canada would be a safe haven for gays



We have our backwards conservative areas too, just like anywhere else. Also like America the west coast is more liberal the center more conservative, and the east back to being more liberal (exception being the somewhat isolated far eastern coastal provinces like NS)


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

No we all h8 the gays.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Sunyata said:


> We have our backwards conservative areas too, just like anywhere else. Also like America the west coast is more liberal the center more conservative, and the east back to being more liberal (exception being the somewhat isolated far eastern coastal provinces like NS)



America is such a different kind of monster religionwise when compared to other developed countries that I tend to disregard that other like countries may display different degrees of homophobia regardless of population density. 

I figured Canada was more akin to a liberal European country, where it's usually safe to be gay as long as you're in a large city.



Stealthdjentstic said:


> No we all h8 the gays.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

It is. Halifax is tiny which is where groph is from..


----------



## Sang-Drax

Stealthdjentstic said:


> It is. Halifax is tiny which is where groph is from..



According to wiki, its urban area is close to 300 thousand people. I thought it was at least medium for Canadian standards.


----------



## Sunyata

Sang-Drax said:


> According to wiki, its urban area is close to 300 thousand people. I thought it was at least medium for Canadian standards.



Basically ALL our population is concentrated in BC, Ontario, Quebec and Alberta. Those 4 make up literally around 90% of the population of Canada(~35 million). Alberta (4millish pop.) is basically the Texas of Canada, and still has fairly large liberal cities.

LGBT people should have nothing to fear about Canada unless they're in some rural backwards shithole...and who want's to go there right?


----------



## Sang-Drax

I think pretty much everyone knows this already, but it's good news nevertheless: Obama's Speech.

"It is now our generation&#8217;s task to carry on what those pioneers began. For our journey is not complete until our wives, our mothers, and daughters can earn a living equal to their efforts. Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law -- for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well".

We'll see.


----------



## groph

Sang-Drax said:


> And here I was thinking any moderately large town in Canada would be a safe haven for gays



Halifax is a nice "cultured" city in that it has a pretty decent musical scene, arts, museums, charming little buildings and all that but otherwise it's pretty homogeneous. Mostly white and there is only one gay bar in the whole city. 

Apparently Toronto is great, well, there's an entire "gay part" of Toronto and I imagine Montreal, Vancouver, the big cities like that are probably better.

Halifax is a pretty small city. Only takes maybe 15-20 minutes to drive from one end to the other, more or less depending on traffic. It's the biggest city in the Maritimes but keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of Canada's population is within what, 100km of the US border and mostly concentrated around the Great Lakes?


----------



## Sang-Drax

Just as we were seeing so much progress in US and UK of late...

Russian gay rights activists detained as MPs vote for 'propaganda' bill | World news | guardian.co.uk


----------



## flint757

Nice to see people from my state are actually willing to stick up for others.


----------



## tacotiklah

Damn. I was not expecting things to turn out that way....


----------



## flint757

I didn't realize that you could be refused service in 29 states for being gay. That is sad and shocking. Not that people actually do refuse service necessarily, but still.


----------



## tacotiklah

Help out a girl like myself guys:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...omen-violence-against-women-act-1994/CkBtxzk5

Yeah the repubs wanna make sure that because I'm a transgirl that it's okay for people to stalk, rape, and beat me. Help put pressure on the white house to weigh in on the issue. It may not do much, but it would have a greater effect than my just ranting and raving about it.


----------



## Jakke

I'm not a US citizen, but I would naturally have signed had I been.


----------



## tacotiklah

Hot damn!:
BREAKING: U.S. House approves anti-violence law with LGBT protections &#8211; LGBTQ Nation


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> Hot damn!:
> BREAKING: U.S. House approves anti-violence law with LGBT protections  LGBTQ Nation




I use this picture a lot, but it's appropriate.


----------



## engage757

Jakke said:


> And building on the chair-analogy. No, a chair is not a chair because it's not a table, it's a chair because of its chair-like properties. The majority of things existing in this world are not tables, so using that qualifier to determine the identity of an object is ridiculous and pointless.
> 
> 
> [/URL]



Unless you sit your plate of food on it or a lamp, then what is it? 

A table with chair-like properties?


----------



## tacotiklah

More good news!:
BREAKING: Colorado to Legalize Civil Unions | The Barking Atheist

Slowly but surely, the fight for equality is being won.


----------



## J7string

Rant warning:

It's always good to see the right things taking place, but it's sickening to see over and over and over again civil rights issues NEEDING to be resolved, when it's already written into law, into our Constituiton, that no person shall be discriminated against. Slavery gets abolished because people saw that these people were... people. They indeed deserved to live like anyone else in the USA, but the struggle went on through to the 1960's. 

In the 1920's women had to protest and demontrate for their rights, when right off the bat they should have just gotten what they wanted. And since whenever the homosexual struggle started... It's just a big repeat in American history. For some reason... America just gets stuck on civil rights issues, when there should be no issue at all, but people are fickle, they think they know what's good for people, and they wave their power wand around and discriminate and belittle people. 

And I'm not talking about that select 10% of people that just hates a certain group of people, that will always exist. I mean when the hate and ignorance fabricates itself into law, or a group has to reach out to the government for help. Instead of just resolving issues like grown men and women, people have to fight things because they're scared, or hateful, or just ignorant. It takes away from us and devolves us as a country and as a people. If the federal government keeps sticking it's fingers in this type of business, or has to keep turning away from more pressing matters to tell people to grow the fuck up and let these people live their lives, or if it takes years for someone to come in and tell everyone to grow the fuck up and get things back on track... Man... the US is so fucked as a country. It's just rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. War, civil rights, debt, war civil rights, debt.

Sorry for the rant, you were warned lol.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well, it's official. Call me convinced. Religion ruins everything:
Michelle Shocked Speaks Out as Full Audio of Meltdown Emerges | Billboard


----------



## flint757

I still think it is hilarious that people still can think preachers are being held at gun point on this issue. It is ludicrous. It is a far more common opinion than I wish as well. 

Preachers can pick and choose now and they will later on too. It's as if they assume there are no preachers in existence okay with gay marriage. 

It is also a measure of stupidity as you don't absolutely need a preacher to perform a marriage. It's scary and funny all at the same time.


----------



## tacotiklah

Did anyone else have a brain aneurysm trying to understand what in the name of all that is holy possessed this woman to go into San Francisco and start spewing religious homophobia? Granted it should be unacceptable anywhere, but this is like me wandering into a club in Harlem, Compton, or Watts and start spewing racial epithets everywhere and then become truly shocked when everyone gets offended. The real kicker here? After she does all of this madness, she has the stones to ask people to put money in a hat for her, AFTER the venue already shut of her mic and asked her to leave.


----------



## flint757

IMO she was trying to be offensive. I actually think she'd be less likely to do it somewhere that mindset is more acceptable, but that is merely conjecture. I don't mean she is trolling either (in the sense that she wasn't being sincere), but that she wanted a reaction. Asking for money afterward cements that for me honestly.

I hate people who force a certain result and then claim wrongdoing knowing fully well what the result would be. Religious people do that a lot on the fringe (I'm looking at you Westboro ).


----------



## tacotiklah

I agree. It was her fail way of attempting to be "edgy" and "shocking". I don't condone anything she says at all, but I agree also that if you're gonna use homophobia as shock/hate/whatever speech, at least form enough brain cells to make sure that you play to the correct crowd for it.


----------



## Don Vito

So I interacted with a transgender person, in person for the first time yesterday(or so I think!). Religious beliefs aside(not that I agree with them), I don't think anyone has a good reason to bother them.

I'm sorry if this post comes off in bad taste, but it's always something that I've been curious about experiencing.


----------



## tacotiklah

Don Vito said:


> So I interacted with a transgender person, in person for the first time yesterday(or so I think!). Religious beliefs aside(not that I agree with them), I don't think anyone has a good reason to bother them.
> 
> I'm sorry if this post comes off in bad taste, but it's always something that I've been curious about experiencing.



Religious beliefs are the bane of my existence. Believe me, I know. 
Science is on the side of transpeople and is further confirming what many of us knew to be true; we are born with one role of anatomic sex, and we are somewhere else on the gender spectrum. The vast majority of us are your everyday regular people minus that one particular issue. The goals and aims of each of us differ; same as anyone else. People like to stigmatize us as crazy, but if even the APA (American Psychological Association) agrees that we're not and are removing former discriminatory diagnoses along those lines from the new DSM-V, then clearly it means we're not. 

All that's really different is that our mental gender constructs are not in line with our anatomic sex, and for many transpeople, it's dissociative enough that socially and physically transitioning is necessary for proper health and wellness. (not all cases though. There are plenty of "gender-benders" that are content with just dressing as the opposite sex or a blending of the two to find peace and fulfillment)

I'm glad that your experience went well and I feel that much of what gets perceived as transphobia is really rooted in preconceptions of people that have never met or interacted with in their life. (at least not knowingly)


----------



## Don Vito

What I really meant by the Religious statement, is that people who are knee deep in their beliefs are going to give themselves an excuse to butt in other peoples lives. It does not make it valid or humane.


----------



## tacotiklah

Exactly! And I agree.


----------



## tm20

this was too funny to not share so i thought this thread was appropriate


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well, this picture cured my gayness.


----------



## mcd

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well, this picture cured my gayness.



I love the LBGT thread on here. It gives me a warm fuzzy knowing people still are willing to fight for what they believe in. 

And this pic made valid points


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Supreme Court indicates it may strike down marriage law | Reuters

I'm really, really liking the way this is headed.


----------



## Mayhew

What the hell is taking America so long anyway? Oh right, that whole lack of separation between church and state thing. Canada is the polar opposite. We don't like religious conservatism in our politics. We legalized it across the country in one go many years ago and no one has given two shits since. How can it be legal in some states and not in others. Equality shouldn't even be an issue at this point but I guess they're running out of people they can discriminate against.


----------



## Don Vito

edit: eh not worth it.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well it seems today is polar opposite day:
Bill O&#8217;Reilly says same sex marriage foes are just a bunch of Bible thumpers | The Raw Story


In other news; hell has frozen over, Michelle Bachmann has come out as a lesbian and Sean Hannity smokes a doobie.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I approve of this... But I still think he's a media whore. 

I'm just hoping Kennedy joins the side of ruling both out.


----------



## tacotiklah

Just watched this and am feeling all kinds of feels. 

A Girl Gets Attacked At School For Being STRAIGHT?!
(title is a bit misleading as this is a fictional "alternate reality" type of short film)


----------



## strungout

Nice thread. Just felt like sharing:

I was 12-13 yo. I'd just seen a documentary or whatever on homosexuality. I went to my mom and asked if she knew anyone that was gay. She said "yeah" and that I did too... I was like "who the f..." Then I said "You...?" It could've been. She'd divorced my dad. Had a couple boyfriends after that but it never amounted to much. Figured she was coming out to me! So, she laughs and says "no, it's uncle Tony..." Actually, my grandma's brother. It all went real quick in my head, as it sunk in: he was gay before I knew about it, and I loved him before I knew he was gay, therefore nothing's changed, except me knowing about it. I'm proud about that moment, cause I feel it really cemented my belief that unless people don't respect others, there's absolutely no reason not to respect them, whether you agree or not with the way they live their lives. Love is love. Spirituality is spirituality. Intelligence is intelligence.

The family never really talked about his being gay, but I always tought it was more alike to not talking about religion or politics: let's enjoy the time we have together and not waste it on stuff we don't agree on. 
My grandma thought being gay was a "mental illness", like being bipolar or schizophrenic ... which is kinda true, in that, it's not a choice, you are what you are and there's an incredibly strong pull towards it. At least, she understood that it wasn't something you could 'cure', only something you learn to accept and thrive with. I used to tell her being gay was actually immensely better than being bipolar, as you can have the exact same quality of life as any straight person would, long as their being offered the same opportunity to be so. Being bipolar, or worse, schizophrenic is a real handicap. Not to say it can't be overcome. She died a couple years ago. I still wonder just how much I changed her mind about that, or any other subject (who can say they've had slightly philosophical conversations with their grandma?  ) What I know is, she loved her brother and would've given her life without hesitation for him. I have to credit both my mom and grandma for making me as open minded as I am, despite -- just like all human beings -- having some pre-conceived ideas here and there. I won't let that get in the way of actually sizing up someone in person and learning about them. That's how you set a personal value on someone: get to know them. You'll see we're more alike than different.

Hope I came across clear enough. I tend to imagine faster than I think and then write. Can't wait for that brain/computer interface! (ok, now, that's just lazy...)


----------



## Jakke

strungout said:


> [Story]



I have a gay uncle, but my grandmother is mainly extremely fond of all the, in her opinion, charming gay men that she has met through him, especially this bald gentleman:


I find that to be in very poor taste on her part


----------



## strungout

...is that Angus Young....  What the hell happened 

Grandmas come from a different era. Mine was first generation Italo-Québecer, catholic roman at that. You take what you can get and try to nudge them further along


----------



## tacotiklah

Jakke said:


> I have a gay uncle, but my grandmother is mainly extremely fond of all the, in her opinion, charming gay men that she has met through him, especially this bald gentleman:
> 
> 
> I find that to be in very poor taste on her part





I uh..... may have to agree with your assessment here. 


Gay isn't a disease any more than being straight is. If a person isn't sure, just turn the question on its head and ask "Okay, so exactly what day did you come down with heterosexuality?" 
Once people see that sexuality is 1.)Just how people are naturally hard-wired 2.) Not the same thing as their gender and 3.) On a spectrum and not a black and white issue, then understanding will come a lot easier.


----------



## flint757

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-gay-marriage-cases-pages/story?id=19488279#.UcqhWvnvt8F

I think they are ruling on this tomorrow (today ).


----------



## flint757

Supreme Court DOMA Decision Rules Federal Same-Sex Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

Progress is being made.


----------



## pink freud

flint757 said:


> Supreme Court DOMA Decision Rules Federal Same-Sex Marriage Ban Unconstitutional
> 
> Progress is being made.



My favorite part of this is how transparently douchey Scalia is in his dissent.


----------



## anunnaki

Not sure if I saw it on this site or where I saw it, but I saw that an American ministry that supposedly converted gay people to straight people through jesus or something recently shut down: BBC News - 'Ex-gay' group Exodus International shuts down


----------



## flint757

pink freud said:


> My favorite part of this is how transparently douchey Scalia is in his dissent.



Yeah, what was so 'dishonest' or 'unfair' about it? Based on what is being said they almost make it seem like because the public views the bigotry negatively that they are leaving little choice in the matter. That's the only 'black and white' factor, but that is nothing new either so they sound more like sore losers than anything. 



anunnaki said:


> Not sure if I saw it on this site or where I saw it, but I saw that an American ministry that supposedly converted gay people to straight people through jesus or something recently shut down: BBC News - 'Ex-gay' group Exodus International shuts down



http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-current-events/241200-exodus-international-one-biggest-pray-gay-away-ministries-shuts-down.html


----------



## strungout

Hmm, thought I'd subscribed to this thread...

I saw this story on CNN. At first I thought it was honest. They also mentioned the guy was planning to change the ministry to actually welcome and help gays deal with being gay... but then his apology is half-assed and barely hiding the fact that he still believes homosexuality is wrong and the only way to deal with it is abstinence and praying for forgiveness for being a sinner... which makes the whole things pretty hypocritical... Fine you stopped doing an incredible amount of damage to people you were supposedly trying to help, but you still consider them to be 'unnatural' or whatever... 
What? So you're gonna welcome them but still call them sinners and telling them what they are is wrong? 
Like he's trying to go from extreme to not-so-extreme: "let's try to brainwash them in a more subtle way, so we can keep doing what we do without getting so much hate for it"... Hoping to fly under the radar...

So...yeah... no redemption for him. The only way that would happen is if he accepted who he his and lived who he is and fight for the right to be who he is: gay AND christian.

On that subject, the new pope apparently confirmed there was a "gay lobby" inside the catholic church... Not very clear, but the expression "we need to see what we can do" sounds like open-mindedness to me...

The Pope and the 'Gay Lobby' : The New Yorker

RORATE CÆLI: Pope to Latin American Religious: Full text Update: Religious confirm they were the source


----------



## tacotiklah

As the saying goes, even a blind squirrel can find a nut sometimes...
WATCH: Pat Robertson Says Being Transgender Is Not a Sin | Advocate.com

I think hell just got a bit colder.


----------



## xXoAlecoXx

Pats turning against us time to find a new more traditional leader who can actually see the truth


----------



## tacotiklah

Nvm, situation already handled.


----------



## strungout

> "But I think there are men who are in a woman's body," the 83-year-old former Baptist minister continues. "It's very rare, but it's true. Or women that are in men's bodies. And they want a sex change. And *that is a very permanent thing*, believe me, when you have certain body parts amputated, and you have shot up with various kinds of hormones, it's a radical procedure. I don't think there's any sin associated with that &#8212; I don't condemn somebody for doing that."


Of course, being gay is* not a very permanent thing*...



> "It's not for you to decide, or to judge," (...)


He's found a nut (and there was another one right next to it...). Maybe from that, he can find at least one thing to learn about *finding nuts*, and he'll get better at it. Even if he's still a blind squirrel!


Edit: lol banned.


----------



## tacotiklah

You hear that folks? Pat will not condemn you to hell if you feel you need a sex change. Rest easier knowing that you have the approval of a someone that is utterly batshit insane. 

While I'm glad that this guy is at least starting to open his mind up some, I'm still baffled that being gay/bi/lesbian is still something to frown on for him.


----------



## icos211

BBC News - Fire Island Modernist traces 1960s gay culture through art and architecture

Don't know if it has been posted here, but I found it interesting. I think the earlier stuff is preferable, but I'm just a wood kind of guy. Maybe this is the wrong thread to use those exact words...

-Your local LGBT(but personally straight) friendly conservative.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> While I'm glad that this guy is at least starting to open his mind up some, I'm still baffled that being gay/bi/lesbian is still something to frown on for him.



Well, look at it this way... He prefers people like you over people like me.


----------



## tacotiklah

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well, look at it this way... He prefers people like you over people like me.



And that actually bothers me since the two of us are awesome people. 
I take what Pat is saying as a backhanded compliment.


----------



## Idontpersonally

flint757 said:


> Supreme Court DOMA Decision Rules Federal Same-Sex Marriage Ban Unconstitutional
> 
> Progress is being made.





DLG said:


> someone needs to make a flaming/flamefest joke just to get it out of the way.


Better late than never


----------



## Curt

ghstofperdition said:


> You hear that folks? Pat will not condemn you to hell if you feel you need a sex change. Rest easier knowing that you have the approval of a someone that is utterly batshit insane.
> 
> While I'm glad that this guy is at least starting to open his mind up some, I'm still baffled that being gay/bi/lesbian is still something to frown on for him.


 I too am baffled. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well, look at it this way... He prefers people like you over people like me.


For whatever reason. lol I don't really need any validation from someone like him, but just one step further to him not being a total asshat.


----------



## Waelstrum

Maybe this is just Pat's way of gradually revealing that he's "seen the light" so to speak. If that's the case, then he could very well change a few minds, as a significant amount of people seem to rate his opinion highly.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Waelstrum said:


> Maybe this is just Pat's way of gradually revealing that he's "seen the light" so to speak. If that's the case, then he could very well change a few minds, as a significant amount of people seem to rate his opinion highly.



Even though he still thinks we're trying to .... shit up. 



Curt said:


> For whatever reason. lol I don't really need any validation from someone like him, but just one step further to him not being a total asshat.



Judging by what he said above, he still is one.


----------



## flint757

Waelstrum said:


> Maybe this is just Pat's way of gradually revealing that he's *"seen the light"* so to speak. If that's the case, then he could very well change a few minds, as a significant amount of people seem to rate his opinion highly.



This is all I could think about from what you just said.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Time to necro this thread.

NJ Supreme Court rules same-sex couples can marry beginning Monday - U.S. News


----------



## tacotiklah

The necro is most appreciated. 

Time to celebrate with a game that I call "You rage, you lose". See how far you can read through this article without once getting angry, confused, or upset. For bonus points, see if you can keep your IQ from lowering while trying to understand the why of this article:
Listen: Tea Party Group Founder Calls For Class Action Suit Against Homosexuality | The New Civil Rights Movement


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shit if he can do that, I'm filing a lawsuit against bigotry.


----------



## Necris

From the article:



> "Obviously, statistically now even the Centers for Disease Control verifies that homosexuality much more likely leads to AIDS than smoking leads to cancer."


I actually looked for any statement from the CDC that verifies that. Turns out it doesn't exist (shocking ). 

If you actually check the CDCs site you will see this:




> More deaths are caused each year by tobacco use than by human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), illegal drug use, alcohol use, motor vehicle injuries, suicides, and murders combined.


CDC - Fact Sheet - Health Effects of Cigarette Smoking - Smoking & Tobacco Use



Some fun math done with statistics from the CDC:


> At the end of 2010, *an estimated 489,121 (56%) persons living with an HIV diagnosis in the United States were MSM or MSM-IDU*.


(MSM = Men Who Have Sex With Men | MSM-IDU = Men Who Have Sex With Men - injection drug users )



> The adverse health effects from cigarette smoking account for more than 440,000 deaths, or nearly one of every five deaths, each year in the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> 440000 / 489,121 = 0.8995729073174123
> 
> Based on these estimates the amount of people who die each year due to Lung cancer caused by smoking is equivalent to 89.95% of the total MSM/MSM-IDU population infected with HIV dying each year.
Click to expand...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Illinois Gay Marriage Bill Passes As State Poised To Become 15th To Legalize Same Sex Marriage


----------



## Discoqueen

It's kind of cool too see more and more states getting around to 'legalizing' same sex marriage.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Looks like Hawaii is about to be #16.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ENDA Vote: Senate Votes To Outlaw LGBT Workplace Discrimination

ENDA passed the senate (64 - 32), with apparently only one person speaking in opposition on the floor.


----------



## tacotiklah

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Looks like Hawaii is about to be #16.



Yep, they just passed the third and final part of the bill. Woohoo Hawaii!
16 down and 34 to go.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Aloha, marriage equality.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Oklahoma ban on gay marriage ruled unconstitutional - Tulsa World: Courts


----------



## Necris

Wooo, Oklahoma.


----------



## MFB

First Satanist statues, now this? Oklahoma's gaining popularity.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Satanist queers taking over Oklahoma, everyone run away!


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Oklahoma has one of the highest, if not THE highest, populations of Native Americans on reservations, and as far as I've been able to find, there are still Tribes there that do not allow or recognize same-sex marriage. Tribal Nations have sovereignty that the Federal government doesn't interfere with in cases of things like the issuing of marriage licenses, and I suspect the governments of the States the tribes are in has no jurisdiction over them on the matter, either.

So that means that while this new development is good for Oklahomans in general, it's not so good for everyone in the area. It's strange, I had never even thought about this until I saw the update in this thread and thought "Huh, I wonder how this affects Tribal Nations," and looked it up. I don't recall ever hearing about there being a large movement for marriage equality in the Tribal Nations (though there are some who allow it), but I hope there's a group out there fighting for change in that arena, too. It's a bit sobering to realize that even once a state legalizes, there can _still_ be people there who can't get married. 

Come to think of it, even if there's ever a _Federal_ law that requires states to recognize same-sex marriages, would that force the Tribal Nations to recognize it, too? Or is that an area over which the Tribes have complete sovereignty and the Fed can't interfere?


----------



## Discoqueen

I think the fact that the gov't can't tax the various reservations throughout the country would indicate they can't control any aspect of the way they do things. 

Still, way cool to see more states coming to!


_Posted from Sevenstring.org App for Android_


----------



## Metalman X

ghstofperdition said:


> More good news!:
> BREAKING: Colorado to Legalize Civil Unions | The Barking Atheist
> 
> Slowly but surely, the fight for equality is being won.



Between this, legal recreational herb, cooler temps, and cheaper cost of living, it's fast becoming an ideal place I may want to relocate too, lol. Hell, a buddy of mine told me there's a great music scene in Denver, even for metal.


----------



## Metalman X

Also, let me just chime in and officially be on record here:
I'm a disenfranchised, disgruntled, disgusting, depressed, pot smoking, beer guzzling, morbidly obese, tattooed and pierced, gay metalhead approaching middle age.... and I'm cool with all that, more or less.

Sadly, due to alot of circumstances in my life, it took me long time to really come to terms with my sexuality. I was always "different" anyway... just an eccentric artist/musician type with a really off-color, weird sense of humor (if I showed you guys my art, half of you would probably think I need be committed, heh), so I had an awkward time growing up. Even into adulthood, always felt kind of 'out-of-phase' with most people. So, realizing i was gay was like "well shit, another thing people are gonna give me grief over". It's hard to explain really, unless you been there. Wasn't til just about 3 weeks ago I really slowly started coming out. All my friends know... most are cool with it, a couple not so much. Very little family... just my mother and a younger sister, both are cool with it, though my mother was hoping i'd make a couple of grandchildren (I have zero interest in raising children, and this has nothing to do with my sexuality). I'll be 34 next month. It's been a long bumpy ride, and honestly, the last half of 2013 wound up being VERY hard on me, and I'm still sorting alot of that out. Whatever, rambling now. Just kinda wanted to throw my hat in here, as I know how important it is to realize none of us are ever as truly alone as we may think we are, even if it's really hard to see at times. Something I still need to occasionally remind myself of. The world certainly ain't overflowing with gay metalheads, after all, but we're out there!  

Also, not certain if this is photoshopped, but damn is this great:


----------



## tacotiklah

^The revelation of that pic broke my mind. 

And welcome! When I started this thread, it was hoped that this would be a sanctuary of sorts for LGBT forumers. Got a crush on a hot guy that won't reciprocate? Vent!
Interested in doing drag and want advice or to show off (worksafe) pics? Right here.

I know what you mean about a rough year. Actually the last couple of years have been less than par for me since I came out as both trans and bi. People always saw me as "one of the guys", so it's finally taken them this long to accept that while I'm still the same person, I'm actually a woman.

Now that gays are becoming accepted overall, the new battle seems to be over transpeople.


----------



## Jakke

ghstofperdition said:


> And welcome! When I started this thread, it was hoped that this would be a sanctuary of sorts for LGBT forumers. Got a crush on *Jakke* who won't reciprocate?



FFIFY


And I have to say that I am not surprised, and that you are not the first nor the last.


----------



## tacotiklah

I said "who won't reciprocate". You let me plunder that viking booty all the time.


----------



## Metalman X

ghstofperdition said:


> ^The revelation of that pic broke my mind.
> 
> And welcome! When I started this thread, it was hoped that this would be a sanctuary of sorts for LGBT forumers. Got a crush on a hot guy that won't reciprocate? Vent!
> Interested in doing drag and want advice or to show off (worksafe) pics? Right here.
> 
> I know what you mean about a rough year. Actually the last couple of years have been less than par for me since I came out as both trans and bi. People always saw me as "one of the guys", so it's finally taken them this long to accept that while I'm still the same person, I'm actually a woman.
> 
> Now that gays are becoming accepted overall, the new battle seems to be over transpeople.



yeah, its definitely cool to see this thread here. I'm in the LGBT thread/club over on Talkbass as well.

As for venting, well... I won't lie. Going through a hell of a time right now really, trying to sort stuff out with my BF of the last 9 months. Just, it's not working out, and we moved in together way to soon (which was really only becaue of a distance thing). But while we have some good times, some other stuff has gotten really ugly and I rather not discuss/disclose any of that in a public forum.

I'm also totally for trans rights as well. I've met several in my time, and all or very cool people. Hell, drag queens have some of the best sense of humor! Dunno why that is, but it is, heh.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Apparently the same-sex marriage bill in Scotland passed. Can't find a link because internet is derp right now.


----------



## Jake

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Apparently the same-sex marriage bill in Scotland passed. Can't find a link because internet is derp right now.


BBC News - Scotland's same-sex marriage bill is passed

here you go.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

717ctsjz said:


> BBC News - Scotland's same-sex marriage bill is passed
> 
> here you go.



Why thank you.


----------



## tacotiklah

Hell yeah! Good to see the land of my heritage do the right thing.


----------



## sniperfreak223

I'm glad to see such an accepting environment in here...I'm not personally a member of the LGBT community, but my sister is, as are many of my friends. having seen what kind of shit these people have go through honestly makes me physically sick. Having my sister attempt suicide last year due to bullying at school and from her "devoutly catholic" father just put me over the edge. I nearly got fired last week after one of my new associates threatened to beat the gay kid on my crew because he told him he had "gorgeous eyes",which just pushed me damn near to the point of physical violence.

Humanity is humanity, people, whether gay or straight, male or female, black or white, we're all the same race: we're human.


----------



## Jake

sniperfreak223 said:


> Humanity is humanity, people, whether gay or straight, male or female, black or white, we're all the same race: we're human.


This. As a straight white man here in America I believe that all people should be treated equally and seen equally and anyone should be allowed to live their life the way that they want to without government interference. I don't see the problem, guess it's just the environment I grew up in was extremely understanding and diverse and everyone was different.


----------



## tacotiklah

Anybody catch Jane Mock's interview on Pier's Morgan? 
Morgan is a perfect example of how NOT to be an ally to the trans community. Don't bring up trans people's history without their position, don't reduce them to their genitalia, and definitely do not throw a temper tantrum when called out on doing any of those things.

Between him and Katie Couric and that whole situation over the hoax of a Jane Doe trans girl harassing girls in a bathroom (hoax was cooked up because of California's new pro-trans bathroom law), I'd say that the media is mastering the art of shitting the bed when it comes to people like me.


----------



## Necris

^ They mastered it years ago, unfortunately they seem to be breaking new ground as of late.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews....aking-effect-immediately.html/?nclick_check=1

I said goddamn!


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Worth noting, that sketchy bill/whatever got veto'd in Arizona. Scary it got as far as it did, but at least it ended up killed.

Not sure why people feel they need to deny service to gays because the bible calls it an abomination. God never said shit about treating them any differently, as far as I know. (I'm not even slightly religious.) Whether or not you give them a cheeseburger plays absolutely zero role on if you or they go to heaven or hell.

I'm glad that gay rights are starting to be accepted, but they've got a long way to go yet. Hell, anyone who's not a cishet white male isn't where they deserve to be it seems. I'm hoping that I'll see human rights get to a point where it's damn near equal in my lifetime. People need to stop being shitty to each other and just be happy.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Same-Sex Marriage Now Legally Recognized in Ky. - ABC News


----------



## Watty

I liked the business that posted a sign saying they'd refuse service to the politicians that voted for the bill.

Edit: For the Arizona fiasco.


----------



## tacotiklah

Texas and Kentucky moving forward on this issue? Dayum! 
I'm stoked!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

On top of that, Walt Disney World is cutting support with the BSA due to their anti-gay stances.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Bumparoo.

Judge strikes down Michigan ban on gay marriage; state asks for a stay | Detroit Free Press | freep.com


----------



## Necris

Louisiana Upholds Anti-Sodomy Law - TIME

And then...

Holy Bible Could Become Louisiana's Official Book : The Two-Way : NPR

I know they aren't directly related, but there are certain times when that's harder to believe than others.


----------



## rectifryer

Necris said:


> Louisiana Upholds Anti-Sodomy Law - TIME
> 
> And then...
> 
> Holy Bible Could Become Louisiana's Official Book : The Two-Way : NPR
> 
> I know they aren't directly related, but there are certain times when that's harder to believe than others.


How could a place that generated Popeye's be so evil?


----------



## FermentedAndOffal

I haven't read a single post here, but i have to get this out of my head as it's still bothering me.

So when i was around 13-14 i began having doubts about my sexuality. bi, straight, whatever. Also pondered if i was trans for a while. grew out of the trans thing and it's now just a hobby of mine (wow). Still don't know what i am, and i frankly don't care. I see hot dudes and chicks every day, and i'm fine with that. more booty to look at.

So one of the guitarists in my band was going on a date, and the other guitarist replies "as long as it's not a dude, lol". I replied "Hey! Being gay is exactly what Satan wants, and that's pretty metal if you ask me" trying to resolve the situation and figure out if he meant it or not as my jimmies were a bit rustled as LGBT stuff is a thing i'm pretty passionate about. 

our vocalist replied "No, but really, we don't have any homophobes here, do we?", as she's also playing for both teams. he replied "I'm homophobic, not".

Who the .... says that. Sarcasm doesn't transfer well on facebook without smileys and stuff, so what the hell are you trying to say.

I know this is way to long, and doesn't matter at all. sorry guize.

TLDR; I'm not straight and my guitarist rustled my jimmies by being a retard and i found this thread to rant in.


----------



## piggins411

FermentedAndOffal said:


> I replied "Hey! Being gay is exactly what Satan wants, and that's pretty metal if you ask me"




That's pretty much the best response I've ever heard for that


----------



## tacotiklah

piggins411 said:


> That's pretty much the best response I've ever heard for that



Agreed. 

And yeah, that's what this thread is for. 
Also, I think your guitarist is a homophobe, but realized he was outnumbered so he tried to save face.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Necris said:


> Louisiana Upholds Anti-Sodomy Law - TIME
> 
> And then...
> 
> Holy Bible Could Become Louisiana's Official Book : The Two-Way : NPR



plshalp



FermentedAndOffal said:


> "Hey! Being gay is exactly what Satan wants, and that's pretty metal if you ask me"



Thanks, found my sig.


----------



## MF_Kitten

the Church of Norway shit the bed recently, by reversing the decision to allow gay marriage in their churches. Marriage between same-gender couples is recognized in Norway, and it's legal for them to get married still, but since Norway denounced it's religious affiliations and cut the church of Norway loose from the government, they went their own path. Now they have effectively made sure gay people can't get married in a church here. Period. Church of Norway owns all the churches. It's ridiculous for MANY reasons, and it's most certainly going to be changed back after the crazy backlash it got, but right now that's the situation. Imagine the same-sex couples who had plans to get married. Now they have to postpone that and wait for them to reverse it...

They definitely got BURNT all over for doing it though. Norwegians don't take kindly to this kind of discrimination.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

MF_Kitten said:


> the Church of Norway shit the bed recently, by reversing the decision to allow gay marriage in their churches. Marriage between same-gender couples is recognized in Norway, and it's legal for them to get married still, but since Norway denounced it's religious affiliations and cut the church of Norway loose from the government, they went their own path. Now they have effectively made sure gay people can't get married in a church here. Period. Church of Norway owns all the churches. It's ridiculous for MANY reasons, and it's most certainly going to be changed back after the crazy backlash it got, but right now that's the situation. Imagine the same-sex couples who had plans to get married. Now they have to postpone that and wait for them to reverse it...
> 
> They definitely got BURNT all over for doing it though. Norwegians don't take kindly to this kind of discrimination.



So it's still legal to get married? How is Norway with having like a legal marriages performed? You know, like courthouse marriages or whatever the .... it is? In Rhode Island, where I live, it appears anyone with any affiliation to court system can marry you. Then you can have a big ass party afterwards with a "marriage for show" if you wanted to make a big deal of the wedding. Certainly not as pretty as a religious marriage, but the way I see it, why would you give a church any of your time and/or money when they're basically telling you you're evil and broken?

To me, that's not worth it if there are other options.


----------



## Don Vito

> _*in their churches.*_





> Norway denounced it's religious affiliations and cut the church of Norway loose from the government,



I don't see the problem here.


----------



## Mexi

FermentedAndOffal said:


> Still don't know what i am, and i frankly don't care. I see hot dudes and chicks every day, and i'm fine with that. more booty to look at.



pretty much this. I've identified as straight for the better part of my life, but I always felt a level of sexual ambiguity in that respect that I've always felt comfortable with since experimentation in my teen years. In the past couple years I've found myself coming to terms with that ambiguity. Bi, queer, queer-identified-straight-male, etc. I don't know how to best describe where I'm at, nor do I care for labels really.

I've never felt a need to "come out" or make my sexuality clear to people in my life unless I'm in a situation that necessitates that info. I mean, I "look" straight, therefore I *am* straight to people that enter my life until they ask (which is rarely ever) So in that respect, I'm reluctant to "come out" in any traditional sense because of what it would mean to identify as part of the LGBTQ community, one that I feel so far removed from in many ways. Also, because I never attached a great deal of importance to my sexuality as a defining characteristic of my identity (not a knock on those who do), it just doesn't seem important to do so right now. At least not until I've had more relationships and solidified my actual preferences


----------



## flint757

Don Vito said:


> I don't see the problem here.



He stated in that same post that they own ALL the churches. If that's indeed true I can see where there might be an issue, at least if starting a church that is more accepting isn't possible.


----------



## Don Vito

flint757 said:


> He stated in that same post that they own ALL the churches. If that's indeed true I can see where there might be an issue, at least if starting a church that is more accepting isn't possible.


Oh, I see...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mexi said:


> I mean, I "look" straight



I know what you're saying...so don't think I'm after you...but I've been hearing this phrase a lot as of late. I just recently had a guy tell me that I don't look, act, or sound gay. And he had a hard time believing it. Now obviously the pics I post here aren't what I look like on a daily basis..so most of the time I suppose I do look more masculine..but even in the gay community there seems to just be this understood rule that gay men have to be effeminate or else they are somehow faking. What up with that?


----------



## tacotiklah

Things like this remind me of why one should never judge a book by its cover:
'Stone Cold' Steve Austin's NSFW Take On Gay Marriage

Edit:
NSFW tag due to language. (though anyone that knows anything about Steve Austin should know that's a given.  )


----------



## Explorer

Were the Church of Norway churches built using government money? If so, and that property is being removed from use by a citizen who helped fund it where others get full usage (including marriage), then I wonder if there will be action to return that property to the citizens and to take it out of Church control. 

Not making decisions about what the hierarchy of the Church can do, just not giving government property to a group which enforces discirmination, right?


----------



## flint757

Explorer said:


> Were the Church of Norway churches built using government money? If so, and that property is being removed from use by a citizen who helped fund it where others get full usage (including marriage), then I wonder if there will be action to return that property to the citizens and to take it out of Church control.
> 
> Not making decisions about what the hierarchy of the Church can do, just not giving government property to a group which enforces discirmination, right?





> A constitutional amendment of 2009/2012 designates the church as "Norway's people's church" ("Norges Folkekirke"), with a new provision that is almost a verbatim copy of the provision for the Danish state church (Folkekirken) in the Constitution of Denmark, and the *church remains a state-funded state church*, but with increased autonomy in appointments of clergy. Minister of Church Affairs Trond Giske was responsible for proposing the amendments, explaining that "the state church is retained."[2]



Church of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That does put a wrinkle in things.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I know what you're saying...so don't think I'm after you...but I've been hearing this phrase a lot as of late. I just recently had a guy tell me that I don't look, act, or sound gay. And he had a hard time believing it. Now obviously the pics I post here aren't what I look like on a daily basis..so most of the time I suppose I do look more masculine..but even in the gay community there seems to just be this understood rule that gay men have to be effeminate or else they are somehow faking. What up with that?



My two closest friends are what folks would consider "lipstick lesbians," and they get shit on quite a bit for it. Like, people will always tell them that they're just faking it for shock value or to intentionally get people going because it's "hot" or whatever. It's weird that people assign a look to things. Gay men are "supposed" to be girly, and gay women are "supposed" to be butch. It's stereotypes at their finest, and it's pretty offensive from my point of view.

For fear that someone might take it the wrong way, I'm not ragging on anyone here or implying that they're being offensive.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Mexi said:


> pretty much this. I've identified as straight for the better part of my life, but I always felt a level of sexual ambiguity in that respect that I've always felt comfortable with since experimentation in my teen years. In the past couple years I've found myself coming to terms with that ambiguity. Bi, queer, queer-identified-straight-male, etc. I don't know how to best describe where I'm at, nor do I care for labels really.
> 
> I've never felt a need to "come out" or make my sexuality clear to people in my life unless I'm in a situation that necessitates that info. I mean, I "look" straight, therefore I *am* straight to people that enter my life until they ask (which is rarely ever) So in that respect, I'm reluctant to "come out" in any traditional sense because of what it would mean to identify as part of the LGBTQ community, one that I feel so far removed from in many ways. Also, because I never attached a great deal of importance to my sexuality as a defining characteristic of my identity (not a knock on those who do), it just doesn't seem important to do so right now. At least not until I've had more relationships and solidified my actual preferences



Dude, it's not rocket science. If you're attracted to people of the same gender as yourself, you're not straight, and thus belong into the LGBT community, no matter if you're masculine or the biggest queen alive.

That said, sexuality _is_ a great deal of importance in the sense that it's part of our everyday lives. Everybody talks about sex all the time. All. The. Time. "My wife this", "my kids that", "my father-in-law this", and so on - these are all references to a relationship.

For people who are not in one, the subject come up a little less often, but they do regardless. Guys don't have to be close friends to comment on girls, for instance. Even in the most formal environment there's a reasonable chance of sex being a topic of conversation. It's just how things are. When I was in the closet, I had to lie several times every freaking day. It's tiresome and you'll know how better it feels once you do come out.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

'RuPaul's Drag Race' To Refrain From Using 'Transphobic Slur' In Wake Of Controversy

So this is happening. For those that don't know..there's has been this longstanding "grudge" between drag queens and trans people and now it's seems to be reaching new heights. Various people have weighed in on the topic and most are pissed that the show is changing due to what's seen as selective complaints by trans activists.

An well known "tranny porn" celebrity who's become quite the public figure weighed in and it added fuel to the fire. The video has gone viral, especially since Madison is a known trans adult movie performer who has reached millions of people and is often cited as a "setback" to the trans movement due to how vocal she is on subject.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=548365551950224&set=vb.100003303517919&type=2&theater

Honestly I'm waiting to see what else happens from all this mess. Truth be told I think the whole thing is just stupid and it does seem very selective and "....y" given all that figured like Rupaul has done for not just the gay community but the drag and trans community as well. This happens often, unfortunately in the gay community, where the sub groups try really hard to put down another sub group or distance themselves when we're all in the same boat. Way too much infighting going on for no logical reason.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

There's a lot of infighting because the LGBTQ is such a diverse group. Not that it justifies any of the shitty behavior, but I can't count the times I've been told bisexuality isn't a thing and that I'm not bisexual just because I've settled in with a woman. On top of that I constantly get picked on for being feminine and having a feminine girlfriend. It depresses me when my own community struggles to accept me, but what can you do?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Chokey Chicken said:


> There's a lot of infighting because the LGBTQ is such a diverse group. Not that it justifies any of the shitty behavior, but I can't count the times I've been told bisexuality isn't a thing and that I'm not bisexual just because I've settled in with a woman. On top of that I constantly get picked on for being feminine and having a feminine girlfriend. It depresses me when my own community struggles to accept me, but what can you do?



Happens all the time. The LGBT "community" is comprised of some of the the harshest and most judgemental people you'll ever come across. Of course not everyone is that way but I often feel sorry for the kids just getting into the community since they're more often rejected and ridiculed by their own than straight people. It's something that really needs to stop. Doing drag, I've experienced it even moreso, although I'm older now and I handle it a lot better than I did when I was 10 or more years younger. You can't imagine how many times I've had shade thrown at me by trans people, cross dressers, and the like just for doing drag..just silly stuff. It really needs to stop.


----------



## tacotiklah

Rupaul kinda brought it on himself by referring to transwomen as "shemales". Probably the worst slur you can call a transwoman. I'm mostly an open-minded person so the word "tranny" doesn't really bother me (though that is still considered a pretty bad slur as well), but even I despise the word shemale. 
Compound that with the fact that during the episode, Rupaul had people trying to distinguish between "females and shemales". Transpeople don't like being judged in this manner. It's offensive and disrespectful.

Now I've really come a long way in terms of making friendly with the drag community and I've done a lot to cure myself of ignorance in terms of that (drag nights at the local gay bar are some of the funnest nights I've had and I've made good friends with some of the drag queens there), but Rupaul is the furthest thing from an ally to the trans community.


----------



## MFB

ghstofperdition said:


> Compound that with the fact that during the episode, Rupaul had people trying to distinguish between "females and shemales". Transpeople don't like being judged in this manner. It's offensive and disrespectful.



I feel like it's a double-edged sword, because on the one hand - yes, they're judging you side-by-side with a person who's been a woman from birth (you know what I mean by this, let's not split hairs about wording) and you feel like if you aren't picked as the "female" then it's an all or nothing game. 

HOWEVER, if you AREN'T picked as the shemale, it means you really DO look like a woman and wouldn't that be a hell of a compliment/ego-boost?

This is just speculation from one average, non-"Female/Shemale" game player's outside perspective


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Comparing trans to people who are cis side by side is insulting though. It implies you're trying to trick people into thinking you're the other gender, when it's not about tricking people. Making a competition out of it is trivializing the whole issue and I think it's insensitive to the vast majority of the trans community.


----------



## tacotiklah

Chokey Chicken said:


> Comparing trans to people who are cis side by side is insulting though. It implies you're trying to trick people into thinking you're the other gender, when it's not about tricking people. Making a competition out of it is trivializing the whole issue and I think it's insensitive to the vast majority of the trans community.




This is EXACTLY why it is insulting and disrespectful. One of the worst catch 22s trans women find themselves in is that if they aren't knock out 10/10 gorgeous, they aren't really women. Then when you do have one of those trans women that are stunningly beautiful, they're stigmatized as deceptive succubi out to lure and deceive men. (trans lesbians don't exist apparently.  )


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ghstofperdition said:


> Rupaul kinda brought it on himself by referring to transwomen as "shemales". Probably the worst slur you can call a transwoman. I'm mostly an open-minded person so the word "tranny" doesn't really bother me (though that is still considered a pretty bad slur as well), but even I despise the word shemale.
> Compound that with the fact that during the episode, Rupaul had people trying to distinguish between "females and shemales". Transpeople don't like being judged in this manner. It's offensive and disrespectful.
> 
> Now I've really come a long way in terms of making friendly with the drag community and I've done a lot to cure myself of ignorance in terms of that (drag nights at the local gay bar are some of the funnest nights I've had and I've made good friends with some of the drag queens there), but Rupaul is the furthest thing from an ally to the trans community.



Actually the challenge was about distinguishing from natural women and drag queens, not trans women. Nowhere in the entire series does he or anyone else refer to trans people as anything other than trans. She-Mail is a play on words since it's e-mail from a drag queen. As a matter of fact ANY time that tranny or she-mail is used, it's regarding drag queens.

Not only that but when it comes to public media, RuPaul is quite the ally. How many straight people know any of the representatives from the trans world? Rupaul has brought the topic of gender and identity, as well as the faces of such, into the homes of mainstream straight America. Not to mention many of the contestants were trans. He gave them a platform to be seen, SERIOUSLY increased how much money they make, and gave them a voice via his show. Now to turn around and publicly put him on blast is a political move and a slap to the face, especially considering if anyone was really concerned, they could have contacted Logo, Rupaul, or World Of Wonder. Since there's no record of that being done, just a sudden internet campaign, it seems rather fishy, ESPECIALLY since no one mentioned trans people in the first place.

Now take into consideration that many who are for the whole banning of the She-Mail thing publicly voice negativity towards Rupaul and drag queens in general, the actual motives behind the sudden offense can be debated. Honestly I think it just boils down to infighting amongst subsections of the gay world. The "trans community" (obviously a general, not everyone involved) has had issues with the show since the beginning for not featuring openly trans people (the trans contestants that got onto the show came out afterwards, and the only one to come out during the show was sent home the next episode). There have been various other problems and it just seems every season of the show there's more issue from that group. Usually it never has a strong impact on the show until now and personally I see it doing MUCH less for the trans community. If anything it seems to have made things worse.


Random..but Madison Hinton (the chick from the video I posted earlier) is on a live web interview on gaylifetelevision.com and transitionradio.net regarding trans topics and the topic at hand.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Chokey Chicken said:


> There's a lot of infighting because the LGBTQ is such a diverse group. Not that it justifies any of the shitty behavior, but I can't count the times I've been told bisexuality isn't a thing and that I'm not bisexual just because I've settled in with a woman. On top of that I constantly get picked on for being feminine and having a feminine girlfriend. It depresses me when my own community struggles to accept me, but what can you do?



It's unfortunately surprisingly common to equal sexuality to the sexual act rather than attraction. If one must have sex with the same gender to be gay, then virgins and celibates are asexual and bisexuals only exist insofar as they have intercourse with both genders in the same act.

There's something hidden underneath this incoherence, though: it's based on the old stories according to which there are gangs of gay men who wander about converting "our children". If you are a man who likes men, then you've probably been abused as a kid or whatever. The notion of a homosexual virgin strikes odd to those who share this idea.
--

As for being picked on for being feminine, the fact is that even within the LGBT community itself there's a lot of misinformation. I for once didn't know about the possibility of gay trans people until later on. Because you're feminine, some people probably think you're actually gay but struggling to accept yourself (because some gay people do come out as bisexual first to test the waters, so to speak). You'd be in denial, and some people might view it as a betrayal or something. It's pure ignorance, though


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Cynic/Ex Death Members Paul Masvidal, Sean Reinert Publicly Discuss Their Sexuality For First Time - Blabbermouth.net

This is probably more well-known for hardcore fans, but this is awesome to hear.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Sang-Drax said:


> As for being picked on for being feminine, the fact is that even within the LGBT community itself there's a lot of misinformation. I for once didn't know about the possibility of gay trans people until later on. Because you're feminine, some people probably think you're actually gay but struggling to accept yourself (because some gay people do come out as bisexual first to test the waters, so to speak). You'd be in denial, and some people might view it as a betrayal or something. It's pure ignorance, though



Actually it's sort of the opposite. I don't make a big deal of it on the internet, since that's another source for unnecessary controversy, especially in a hobby mostly dominated by males, but I'm female. I've been mocked all throughout high school for my interest in women, and it was written off as I was just doing it for attention. I still get those looks even though I'm married now. Also, because I settled in with a woman, people for some reason think that magically means I won't admire men from afar.


----------



## tacotiklah

The accuracy in this is actually kinda frightening:
A Transgender Girl's Typical Day | TheBlot


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Judge Chris Piazza invalidates Arkansas's same-sex marriage ban | Arkansas Blog | Arkansas news, politics, opinion, restaurants, music, movies and art

WOW!


----------



## VigilSerus

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Cynic/Ex Death Members Paul Masvidal, Sean Reinert Publicly Discuss Their Sexuality For First Time - Blabbermouth.net
> 
> This is probably more well-known for hardcore fans, but this is awesome to hear.



When I found out that this was behind the whole ViK charade, I kinda got a little ticked off. Initially I was just kind of "whatever" to the whole "I don't like either" reply to Per Nillson. I didn't really care, he was just expressing his opinion. I'm bi but I don't really see the need to hate every person that I come across as bigoted. In something like a business setting, as long as it doesn't permeate the business, I am fine with it. Vik made those comments on his personal FB iirc. When I found out the whole "headless guitar" hate just because of Paul, I got irked. But then what was the step too far was the comment Vik may or may not have 'jokingly' made (ON THE VIK GUITARS PAGE ITSELF) about "doubling" the price if you weren't heterosexual. Now I can justify the hate that people are expressing toward him now.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Arkansas high court won't stay gay marriage ruling

So far, so good.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Bump. 

Judge strikes all Arkansas bans on gay marriage

EDIT: 
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/05/15/breaking-omalley-signs-maryland-transgender/

I must say, today is a pretty good day for LGBT rights.


----------



## tacotiklah

Both of those are huge! 

Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected legal gay marriage in a staunchly conservative state like Arkansas. Very happy for the LGBT people that live there. 

Also, I'm glad to hear that more states are stepping up for transgender anti-discrimination.


----------



## Explorer

It's been strange to read of state's attorneys and governors talking about irreparable harm which will befall the state in question if the ban is not upheld, or if a stay is not enacted before an appeal is heard... but minimizing the idea of harm to those families being affected, being unable to define themselves as a family. 

I'm still waiting for a clear articulation of what irreparable harm will befall states from the definition, other than the assertion that the definition was decided by voters. That logic didn't work for miscegenation laws, so I don't really understand why stays are ever granted in these cases....

@ghstofperdition - I don't think of same-sex marriage in conservative states as a surprise when it becomes a equal-protection issue. These same issues of rights, and of the "will of the people" being trumped by Constitutional rights, are the only way to get past the bigotry which would have kept slavery and anti-miscegenation laws on the books.


----------



## tacotiklah

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that it's occurring. My shock comes from the fact that historically speaking, some of the states that this is becoming legal in have had people in power that were STAUNCHLY against gay rights of any kind. That's why I'm (pleasantly) surprised to see that people are progressing forward. 

Finally.


----------



## Explorer

i agree that it's a great thing.

I"m glad we live in a country where expanding rights are the norm, and where the tyranny of the majority can be constrained.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Woohoo! I co-headline my local Pride event tomorrow! I'm not exactly sure who thought to ask Staccia Tori Rape to an all ages "family" gay pride event, but whatever. Here comes Mama!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Same-sex couples can wed in Oregon, federal judge rules


----------



## tacotiklah

^Awesome. The number of states just keeps growing. 

Also, I finally found a local LGBT group on campus to meet up with. Feels really good to be around caring, accepting people.


----------



## tacotiklah

Add yet another state to the list:
Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage


Based on the map, it looks like all of New England pretty much legalized it. I proud you guise!


----------



## Veldar

I'm glad so many more states are getting LGBT rights, I wish Australia would get them.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ghstofperdition said:


> Add yet another state to the list:
> Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage
> 
> 
> Based on the map, it looks like all of New England pretty much legalized it. I proud you guise!



The ironic thing about this ruling is that, apparently, the judge was appointed by George W. Bush after a recommendation from Rick Santorum.

Also.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Marriage equality has come a long way. I had to hop the border to mass and get married there since my state (ri) didn't allow marriages, but it recognized them. It's pretty cool that people don't have to jump through those hoops anymore. It's also great that fewer and fewer states are legally discriminating. We're nearing the halfway mark.


----------



## tacotiklah

I could be wrong (and probably am), but isn't it true that if 33 states legalize it, then SCOTUS can declare it legal in the US?


----------



## ferret

No, I'm pretty sure you're thinking the two thirds necessary to pass a Constitutional amendment. But that would start in Congress, or a constitutional convention.

I don't think SCOTUS has any obligation to wait for a particular number of states, in regards to judicial review.


----------



## tacotiklah

Oh, my bad. 

In my defense, the morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet.


----------



## sniperfreak223

ghstofperdition said:


> Add yet another state to the list:
> Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage
> 
> 
> Based on the map, it looks like all of New England pretty much legalized it. I proud you guise!



But as a PA resident, you should see all the hate that this has spawned. Seriously, 3 out of 5 letters to the editor in my local newspaper today were "God hates gays and this state is going to hell" letters, one even going so far as to claim that anyone who is in favor of gay marriage is a "pervert" and "theologically, philosophically and historically challenged", and then attacked those people for being "hateful and intolerant of Christian's beliefs and values"...it made me really sad to be honest.

But then again, I live in a historically conservative section of the state...so that may have something to do with the ignorance.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

PA Gov. Corbett won&#8217;t appeal marriage ruling; PA is 19th marriage state! | Freedom to Marry
It's official now.


----------



## Mik3D23

sniperfreak223 said:


> But as a PA resident, you should see all the hate that this has spawned. Seriously, 3 out of 5 letters to the editor in my local newspaper today were "God hates gays and this state is going to hell" letters, one even going so far as to claim that anyone who is in favor of gay marriage is a "pervert" and "theologically, philosophically and historically challenged", and then attacked those people for being "hateful and intolerant of Christian's beliefs and values"...it made me really sad to be honest.
> 
> But then again, I live in a historically conservative section of the state...so that may have something to do with the ignorance.



You're pretty close to me haha.

Just read through some of these comments, doesn't it make you so proud to be an NEPA citizen? 

Judge Overturns PA&#8217;s Same-sex Marriage Ban | WNEP.com


----------



## flint757

That's the purpose of judges though. Their position allows them to make decisions that are good for society overall even if considered unpopular at the time.

I don't want to open that link.  It will likely frustrate me to no end (the comments).


----------



## Mik3D23

flint757 said:


> That's the purpose of judges though. Their position allows them to make decisions that are good for society overall even if considered unpopular at the time.
> 
> I don't want to open that link.  It will likely frustrate me to no end (the comments).



Yeah I facepalmed multiple times in a row 



But in all seriousness. It really depresses me to know how many people there are like this. I've seen a few people on facebook playing the "well anyone who doesn't adhere to the liberal agenda/opinion gets slammed" card. And then of course the obligatory Hillary/*insert generic Democratic target here* gets brought up somewhere


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Montana's governer, as well as several senators, are supporting a lawsuit to reverse the same-sex marriage ban in their state, but the judge is still fighting to keep it.


----------



## asher

Though, that should read A.G., which is considerably easier to overcome than a heavily biased presiding judge


----------



## tacotiklah

Title should say "SOME" before the straight people part since not all straight people are that insensitive, but I hope you all get the idea.


----------



## sniperfreak223

ghstofperdition said:


> Title should say "SOME" before the straight people part since not all straight people are that insensitive, but I hope you all get the idea.





I'm sooo offended by this!!! We straight dudes never act like that...lol jk. 

But honestly, if this happened to me IRL I'd probably laugh my ass off. I used to be really awkward around gays, but being part of the gayest fandom in the history of fandoms has really helped me in that regard. Now I have way too many gay friends.


----------



## tm20

lol


----------



## tacotiklah

Just read this article and was floored. I did not know that about De Niro's dad:
Robert De Niro: Me & My Gay Dad | Out Magazine


----------



## ferret

HOUSTON -- A roaring chorus of cheers erupted inside Houston City Hall Wednesday night as the mayor and city council passed a sweeping anti-discrimination ordinance that ignited a passionate debate over the rights of gay and transgendered Houstonians.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Not sure if this should have it's own thread, buuut...

Presidential Proclamation -- Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month, 2014 | The White House


----------



## fenderbender4

I always laugh at the opposition to gay marriage etc. As much as anyone can argue or deny, it really boils down to a lot of concern over what two people do in the bedroom. Really creepy.


----------



## tacotiklah

In case anyone still had doubts that people are born gay:
How our genes could make us gay or straight - The Washington Post


----------



## asher

http://twitter.com/WISN12News/status/475015126261964801



> US district court judge Barbara Crabb rules #Wisconsin #Gay marriage ban unconstitutional. Update to post shortly. #breaking


----------



## tacotiklah

And see how the religious fundamentalist facade crumbles and falls before our feet. Try as they might to contain and dominate the human spirit and the love it contains, they are failing and falling one state at a time. 

They have failed to grasp two of the greatest lessons from their own faith:
1.) Never underestimate the will of the human spirit
2.) Never underestimate the power of love, for it will conquer all


----------



## Mexi




----------



## Necris

12-Year-Old Transgender Boy Granted Historic New Birth Certificate / Queerty


----------



## tacotiklah

That's great news! Here in Cali, we have relatively relaxed laws regarding birth certificates, though the process is pretty confusing. Still, we can get them changed once a court order is issued to do so.


----------



## ferret

Well.... Having been raised going to a Presbyterian church (agnostic these days), have to say I did NOT see this one coming:

Presbyterian Church Votes To Allow Gay Marriages


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Federal appeals court upholds gay marriage in Utah case

Judge throws out Indiana ban on same-sex marriage


----------



## canuck brian

Anyone in Toronto this week for World Pride 2014?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Judge Strikes Down Kentucky's Gay Marriage Ban - ABC News


----------



## Necris

^ Is this real life?


----------



## tacotiklah

YUSH! Obama to Order Job Protections for Transgender Federal Workers - WSJ
(granted it's limited to federal workers, but that is HUGE!)

Also  @ Kentucky slamming down the ban on gay marriage. That's another form of big news.


----------



## Explorer

tacotiklah said:


> Also  @ Kentucky slamming down the ban on gay marriage. That's another form of big news.



I suspect Kentucky didn't slam down sh1t. There are some folks who are okay with equality, and others who aren't, just like with the Civil Rights movement. 

Still, I'm glad it happened.


----------



## ferret

Yeah, don't get your hopes up that Kentucky has had a change of heart. The court has basically just ruled that it's clear the Constitution is against Kentucky, majority held beliefs or not, so tough for them, gay marriage is coming.


----------



## Explorer

Okay, so when are we going to move on with the only obvious end result, forced same-sex marriage for heterosexuals?

I mean, that has to be the reason for all the objections, right? it's not like those people who are homosexual want to marry someone who is straight, right? 

*laugh*


----------



## tacotiklah

While I love people who are, I'm tired of people confusing me with a drag queen. I feel like this scene should be mandatory viewing for people:


(possible NSFW warning due to language)


----------



## tacotiklah

This is awesome news:
Watch: President Obama Signs Historic Executive Orders Banning Anti-LGBT Discrimination - The New Civil Rights Movement

Love him or hate him, Obama's speech is powerful. The truth in it cannot be denied.


----------



## Necris

Good on him for not caving and including religious exemptions at the request of the religious right, to be completely honest, I was afraid that he would.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah, I was a bit worried he would too. Thankfully, that wasn't the case. 
It's a real shame that Obama had to make an executive order enforcing this because Congress wouldn't pass ENDA.
For all the hate the office of the president gets (though to be fair, that's part of the job description), people should spend more time bitching about the do-nothing Congress that we have.

At any rate, I'm glad that at least SOME LGBT people can do their jobs without worry that they'll get the axe just for being who they are.
Something I want to bring attention to in Obama's speech though...
"And yet, despite all that, in too many states and in too many workplaces, simply being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender can still be a fireable offense. There are people here today who&#8217;ve lost their jobs for that reason. This is not speculative, this is not a matter of political correctness -- people lose their jobs as a consequence of this. Their livelihoods are threatened, their families are threatened. In fact, more states now allow same-sex marriage than prohibit discrimination against LGBT workers. So I firmly believe that it&#8217;s time to address this injustice for every American."

That's a scary thought. There are more states will let you marry whoever you want than there are states that will protect you from workplace discrimination for it.


----------



## Explorer

Fired for doing something legal with another consenting adult?

I like how this is a pressing issue to oppose such rights for some Congress members, but that all the kids who get killed by handguns aren't quite as pressing....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Uganda: Court strikes down &#8216;illegally passed&#8217; anti-gay law · PinkNews.co.uk


----------



## Explorer

The documentary "God Loves Uganda" is scary and awesome in putting names and faces to those American evangelical Christians who worked so hard to get that stuff passed in Uganda. It was on Netflix Streaming when I saw it, and it might still be available.

Also, sometimes the makers of a documentary want the information available, so you might be able to find it for free streaming elsewhere.


----------



## tacotiklah

Oh wow. Tennessee becomes the first state to uphold gay marriage ban:
Tennessee Same-Sex Marriage Ruling Breaks Winning Streak - TIME

Methinks a certain judge got a nice little payoff. Particularly with his clam that The Full Faith and Credit Clause in the Constitution somehow does not apply to Tennessee. A person has to be completely ignorant of the law or willfully due to being paid to be willfully ignorant if they honestly believe that the full faith and credit clause does not apply to just one particular state.


----------



## Alice AKW

So, this is something that I've been kinda wanting to get off my chest, and it may not be much to anyone else, but this is a huge step for me in terms of this topic.

I'm deciding that, from this point on, I'm identifying as a female. It's a thought that's been going through my head for months and months now, and only upon it starting to put some real stress on me and talking it out with a few dear people, I've elected to embrace the more feminine nature I feel that represents me. 

As said, this is a very big and tentative step for me letting this out to you guys, so I ask forgiveness if this post is a bit frazzled in nature, but yeah... This is a thing now.

Thank you for reading.

-Alice

P.S. Anyone know who I can contact about a username change?


----------



## asher




----------



## tacotiklah

That takes a lot of courage to do and I applaud you for taking that step, Alice. <3 

Also, just pm Alex for a username change.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Congrats on what is a great deal of self discovery! I hope moving forward provides you with less stress than the past however many months has. (maybe even longer.) It's always a bit relieving to come to terms with something like this, whether it's "coming out of the closet" or even just being real with yourself.


----------



## Alice AKW

Thanks a lot guys, I've never felt like so many people were behind me. <3


----------



## MikeH

In full support here.  Good on you for coming to terms with it.


----------



## Explorer

Kane_Wolf said:


> I'm deciding that, from this point on, I'm identifying as a female. It's a thought that's been going through my head for months and months now, and only upon it starting to put some real stress on me and talking it out with a few dear people, I've elected to embrace the more feminine nature I feel that represents me.



That can be a hard thing in real life. You might want to look up support groups to get some perspective.

And yeah, contact Alex, or maybe a mod can help get you in contact.


----------



## Alice AKW

Explorer said:


> That can be a hard thing in real life. You might want to look up support groups to get some perspective.
> 
> And yeah, contact Alex, or maybe a mod can help get you in contact.



Yeah, I thought about that a lot too. I'm already looking into some more places in which to seek help with this.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Bumping because of something local to me. 

Judge ruled regarding same-sex marriage - KLFY News 10


----------



## tacotiklah

This thread needed a bump anyways because I love it. Also, woohoo for Louisiana!


----------



## Explorer

I'm glad someone bumped it, because I was debating adding some indications from Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg that if the appeals processes keep affirming same sex marriage, then the Supreme Court will likely not interfere with that process as it continues. 

Also, as I was reading the analysis, there was some commentary from a group called Americans Defending Freedom... which is against the freedom to marry another consenting adult if the combination doesn't please those particular Americans' tastes. 

It makes me want to write a cracked article about all the nutty right-wing groups which put "Freedom!" and "Liberty!" into their names, but which are actually against expanding freedoms.


----------



## Altar

I'm straight.  Which sucks, because I get so many dudes, and most of them are pretty hot. 

Little sister is lesbian though, and that's sad for her, because she lives in constant fear of the parents finding out. She's only told me... I consider myself lucky that she is so trusting. Hard though, as she and I come from a conservative Christian family, and the churches she attends do not approve of same sex relationships. It's extremely frustrating for me as her brother, especially because I know how hard it will be for her when they find out. 

As a positive, she's found a girl that she really likes, who likes her, and comes from a similar background, so they are wonderful together.


----------



## Alice AKW

Altar said:


> I'm straight.  Which sucks, because I get so many dudes, and most of them are pretty hot.
> 
> Little sister is lesbian though, and that's sad for her, because she lives in constant fear of the parents finding out. She's only told me... I consider myself lucky that she is so trusting. Hard though, as she and I come from a conservative Christian family, and the churches she attends do not approve of same sex relationships. It's extremely frustrating for me as her brother, especially because I know how hard it will be for her when they find out.
> 
> As a positive, she's found a girl that she really likes, who likes her, and comes from a similar background, so they are wonderful together.



Be the awesomely supportive older sibling a lot of LGBT folks wish they had. Props!


----------



## tacotiklah

Alice AKW said:


> Be the awesomely supportive older sibling a lot of LGBT folks wish they had. Props!



Definitely this. The absolute worst feeling for an LGBT person is the feeling that they are completely alone and that nobody loves or supports them. It's that feeling that can cause them to do things like self harm. By being there for her as a brother, you're showing her that someone DOES care; that someone does love her for who she is.

Having that kind of support could literally save her life. Be that cool, supportive bro.


----------



## DocBach

Explorer said:


> It makes me want to write a cracked article about all the nutty right-wing groups which put "Freedom!" and "Liberty!" into their names, but which are actually against expanding freedoms.



Freedom and Liberty for everybody -- life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all Americans!

....except for the ones that do stuff we don't like.


----------



## Explorer

@Altar - 

I hate to point this out, but if your family were to turn from someone due to their biology, that family doesn't really love that person. 

I'm not saying that your family would definitely do that, but they love their god who made someone that way, and were unable to listen to their offspring and hear that it wasn't a "choice," then they're not nice people, and not even following that whole "love your neighbor" thing which their Savior talked about. So, not only sh1tty parents, but sh1tty Christians as well. 

Unless your sister is trying to protect herself and keep herself in your parents' love through lies, she's going to have to let them know at some point. It might be a painful lesson for her (and you) to learn that your parents' love is conditional, but that's your parents' choice, isn't it?

Anyway, sorry they're sh1tty enough that your sister is even worried about it.


----------



## Altar

Explorer said:


> @Altar -
> 
> I hate to point this out, but if your family were to turn from someone due to their biology, that family doesn't really love that person.
> 
> I'm not saying that your family would definitely do that, but they love their god who made someone that way, and were unable to listen to their offspring and hear that it wasn't a "choice," then they're not nice people, and not even following that whole "love your neighbor" thing which their Savior talked about. So, not only sh1tty parents, but sh1tty Christians as well.
> 
> Unless your sister is trying to protect herself and keep herself in your parents' love through lies, she's going to have to let them know at some point. It might be a painful lesson for her (and you) to learn that your parents' love is conditional, but that's your parents' choice, isn't it?
> 
> Anyway, sorry they're sh1tty enough that your sister is even worried about it.



Nah, I have to disagree with you. It's not that they wouldn't love, but that they would have an extremely difficult time accepting her sexuality and would most likely be very angry with her for a while. And I don't fault them, honestly. They grew up in a much different time, under different circumstances, and with different beliefs. Also, unfortunately, and it really is sad, but there are some very strong arguments within the church that condemn homosexual activity as a whole. The bride and groom are VERY symbolic and important in the Christian bible, and so is hierarchy.

The way I see it, they are old and traditional. Father is in his late fifties, mother in her forties. They were raised with different values, and set in their ways. And honestly, it's okay. We'll love them, unconditionally.


----------



## tacotiklah

Altar said:


> Nah, I have to disagree with you. It's not that they wouldn't love, but that they would have an extremely difficult time accepting her sexuality and would most likely be very angry with her for a while. And I don't fault them, honestly. They grew up in a much different time, under different circumstances, and with different beliefs. Also, unfortunately, and it really is sad, but there are some very strong arguments within the church that condemn homosexual activity as a whole. The bride and groom are VERY symbolic and important in the Christian bible, and so is hierarchy.
> 
> The way I see it, they are old and traditional. Father is in his late fifties, mother in her forties. They were raised with different values, and set in their ways. And honestly, it's okay. We'll love them, unconditionally.



Here's the harsh truth from someone raised under similar circumstances who came out as LGBT:


> Unless your sister is trying to protect herself and keep herself in your parents' love through lies, she's going to have to let them know at some point. It might be a painful lesson for her (and you) to learn that your parents' love is conditional, but that's your parents' choice, isn't it?



I have family that have walked away from me or have given me conditions in which I can visit and/or be around them. I'm transgender and I can only see some of my nieces and nephews whenever I look "male" around them. I can't be myself around them and as such, I don't visit them.
The worst part of it is knowing that this family member will only accept me as a person if I conform to their idea of what I should be. This is a person I grew up with and loved dearly. I can't even imagine what that would be like for someone's parents to do that to them.

If a parent chooses a religion over their children, the fault does not lie with the children. Some parents do eventually learn acceptance though. My mother hated the thought of transpeople prior to my coming out. She would belittle them and make fun of them. Normally she wouldn't make fun of anyone, but she seemed to reserve that just for trans people. When I cam out, she was accepting to a certain point, but would ask me, "Why couldn't you just be happy as a bi/gay guy?"
Now she tells people about how proud she is of her oldest daughter because I had the courage to come out and be who I am. I spend every day dealing with crappy people and their hatred (if I had a nickel for everyone that called me a maricon out here, I'd probably be rich), but I can deal with it knowing that I have a supportive family.

Having family that rejects you over something you have no control over (regardless of traditions) is crappy. That sends the message that they care more about their traditions than family, and that is one of the gravest of sins in my book.


----------



## Necris

My father was raised in a different time,with different beliefs and under different circumstances but that doesn't in any way change the fact that his views on race can be abhorrent. Homosexuality? Lets not go there. 

In my opinion, being "raised in a different time/with different beliefs/under different circumstances" only gives some explanation as to why a person thinks or behaves the way they do, it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for how they act towards others.

Your sister is, of course, under no obligation to tell your parents _ever_, but you also have to accept that they're likely to find out at some point and the fallout then will probably be worse (provided your parents don't die not knowing). If she's dependent on your parents and your parents kicking her out/disowning her/whatever seems like a possibility I'd certainly advise against her coming out until she can support herself.

Your sister needs to know, though, that hiding feels *even worse *when you're also in a relationship.
From firsthand experience I can tell you that you get to do the following:


 Fear the possibility of anyone in your family learning that you're gay.
Fear the consequences that will arise if they do find out.
Feel a lots and lots of guilt knowing that you're trying to hide the person you love so that you don't have to deal with your families reaction.
Fear the consequences hiding your partner will have on your relationship. (In my mind they can only be negative.)
and many more stress/depression/etc inducing things.


----------



## Altar

I understand, and agree wholeheartedly. The only difference I see is that it's not whether they will love and accept her. Our parents have many flaws, but they will always love us, and that's something that is very important. They may never approve of Madi's sexuality or dating/relationships, but they will love and accept her. To me, that's beautiful.

As far as "coming out", it's up to her, and I haven't tried to sway her decision either way. She'll work it out, she's a smart kid.


----------



## Discoqueen

Altar said:


> Nah, I have to disagree with you. It's not that they wouldn't love, but that they would have an extremely difficult time accepting her sexuality and would most likely be very angry with her for a while. And I don't fault them, honestly. They grew up in a much different time, under different circumstances, and with different beliefs. Also, unfortunately, and it really is sad, but there are some very strong arguments within the church that condemn homosexual activity as a whole. The bride and groom are VERY symbolic and important in the Christian bible, and so is hierarchy.
> 
> The way I see it, they are old and traditional. Father is in his late fifties, mother in her forties. They were raised with different values, and set in their ways. And honestly, it's okay. We'll love them, unconditionally.


. In regards to these strong arguments within the church, as far as I know, they are more religious convictions based on dogma. They church believes that sex and marriage are merely for the sake of procreation, and for that reason, it will condemn same sex marriage. The bible also condemns homosexuality, and for that reason the Church must also condemn it. These are not arguments, though. These are judgements and values. An argument is something meant to be something that is pitted against another, and then through a process of looking contradictions within a particular argument, it can be debunked or found to be a solid line of reason. When an argument is based on dogma that is considered flawless, it gives the argument respect without reason. That is dangerous, in my opinion. I've never heard an argument from any religious individual that could stand on it's own because it always boiled down to, "Well, that's just what I have to believe. I commend you, though, man. Accepting your sister for who she is is a beautiful thing. It shows that you value Jesus' beatitudes over the old Testament's lunacy and some of the Apostles less enlightened ideas.


----------



## tacotiklah

Well I don't want Altar to feel like people are attacking him or his family. The only person that can change his parents' views on the subject are his parents.

The best thing he can do is be a good brother to his sister, and it seems like he has that handled already.


----------



## asher

Altar, keep being awesome for your sister.


----------



## Altar

I appreciate it, guys! She's a wonderful girl.



Discoqueen said:


> In regards to these strong arguments within the church, as far as I know, they are more religious convictions based on dogma. They church believes that sex and marriage are merely for the sake of procreation, and for that reason, it will condemn same sex marriage. The bible also condemns homosexuality, and for that reason the Church must also condemn it. These are not arguments, though. These are judgements and values. An argument is something meant to be something that is pitted against another, and then through a process of looking contradictions within a particular argument, it can be debunked or found to be a solid line of reason. When an argument is based on dogma that is considered flawless, it gives the argument respect without reason. That is dangerous, in my opinion. I've never heard an argument from any religious individual that could stand on it's own because it always boiled down to, "Well, that's just what I have to believe. I commend you, though, man. Accepting your sister for who she is is a beautiful thing. It shows that you value Jesus' beatitudes over the old Testament's lunacy and some of the Apostles less enlightened ideas.



I'm more referring to the arguments made within the church, between the participants - Should the church regard homosexuality as a perversion, a choice, genetic? Should the church perform marriages? What is the purpose of marriage in the church?

Of course, these arguments are based on the Christian bible, and not science or fact.

Thankfully, most churches don't see marriage as strictly based on procreation. Otherwise, the marriages of elderly couples, sterile people, people with birth defects, etc., could potentially be condemned. The way the condemnation of homosexuality has been explained to me is that marriage is a model of Christ and the church, the bride being the church and the groom being Christ. The man is to love and lead the woman, the woman is to love and allow herself to be led.

I don't agree with this, and I believe that popular Christian views will evolve, much like they did over long hair on men or interracial marriages and slavery, but I respect those with these opinions when they are willing to argue and discuss them in a kind, reasonable, manner, although all will be based on the bible and therefore irrelevant if you don't find interest in theology.


----------



## Explorer

@Altar - 

If the Bible is out of step with science, how much does one have to bow to science?

To flip it, if it turns out that sexual preference is natural and not a choice (and did you "choose" to like whatever you like? Did your parents? That might be a good question to ask them!), then how do any church square something God made that way?

Honestly though, the Bible already says that locusts have 4 legs, and a quick YouTube search will find you video of locusts walking on 6 legs. Some 
biblical apologists say that only legs that are used for walking count, and not those used for waling and jumping combined... and that humans have no legs. It's like they have to deny that the Bible is out of step with observable nature... and then they further redefine it into foolishness. 

With that kind of labored thinking, I doubt they'd admit to the Bible being demonstrably wrong on any fact, even if a locust was walking up their face. 

BTW, the "choice" discussion is something I've had with many good fundamentalist Christian friends. "So... when did you decide to not be sexually attracted to men?" *None* of the guys will say that they chose away from men, but will argue that they have only ever been attracted to women.

Then, that follow-up question: "If you never chose, but just knew... what actual evidence is there that someone made a choice when you didn't have to?" 

Lastly... "If it was really a choice, don't you think they'd choose something where Christians and Muslims weren't persecuting them?"


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Explorer said:


> Lastly... "If it was really a choice, don't you think they'd choose something where Christians and Muslims weren't persecuting them?"



The answer I've always heard is that we just love the sin that much that we don't care how badly it effects us outside of a bit of sexual pleasure. Like a crackhead buying crack even though he knows it's destroying his life. The selfish high is just too damn tempting.

This is of course bullshit.


----------



## Altar

Explorer said:


> @Altar -
> 
> If the Bible is out of step with science, how much does one have to bow to science?
> 
> To flip it, if it turns out that sexual preference is natural and not a choice (and did you "choose" to like whatever you like? Did your parents? That might be a good question to ask them!), then how do any church square something God made that way?
> 
> Honestly though, the Bible already says that locusts have 4 legs, and a quick YouTube search will find you video of locusts walking on 6 legs. Some
> biblical apologists say that only legs that are used for walking count, and not those used for waling and jumping combined... and that humans have no legs. It's like they have to deny that the Bible is out of step with observable nature... and then they further redefine it into foolishness.
> 
> With that kind of labored thinking, I doubt they'd admit to the Bible being demonstrably wrong on any fact, even if a locust was walking up their face.
> 
> BTW, the "choice" discussion is something I've had with many good fundamentalist Christian friends. "So... when did you decide to not be sexually attracted to men?" *None* of the guys will say that they chose away from men, but will argue that they have only ever been attracted to women.
> 
> Then, that follow-up question: "If you never chose, but just knew... what actual evidence is there that someone made a choice when you didn't have to?"
> 
> Lastly... "If it was really a choice, don't you think they'd choose something where Christians and Muslims weren't persecuting them?"



And this is where I become frustrated with the Christian church. Many within the church feel the need to make science and the bible line up, while in fact that usually just ends with a twisted form of both science and the Christian bible.

But churches view the topic differently. I've moved around many churches, Christian, Mormon, Catholic, and variations thereupon, and while family ties have prevented me from openly attending churches of other religions, it is something I hope to do in the future to further educate myself. What I've heard, for the most part, is not that it's a choice, but that it's similar to any other fetish or sexual desire... Basically, something you don't choose, but may or may not be harmful, or sinful. Some of the churches I've attended do condemn it, as a choice, but that's much more rare here than some would believe. Most view it as something that doesn't need to be addressed by the church, but rather, "between you and god". 

Please keep in mind that these are not my personal views on the subject, this is just what I have experienced.


----------



## Explorer

If you're don't believe the bible is literally true, you could also experiment with local ethical/humanist societies and Reform Judaism organizations. They can give that "church-y" social interaction without a message you don't believe in.


----------



## Explorer

BTW, I think no one has yet noted that Missouri has been ordered to recognize legal same sex marriages from outside the state. 

Missouri judge sides with married same-sex couples

Missouri Judge Side With Married Same-Sex Couples - ABC News

Yet again, attorneys are unable to articulate an excuse which sounds reasonable for why the state shouldn't recognize these marriages in particular. I think that will lead to the total downfall of the ban in time. 

And Alaska is now making the case that if the citizens have voted to discriminate, even without a good justification, that they should be able to inscribe that discrimination into law. 

I think they're going to lose, especially since they're making all the "state's rights" arguments which were struck down banning interracial marriage. 

Again, I have to note (with humor) that not one way in which same sex marriage affects someone other than the person getting married has been articulated by these clown bigots.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

^on top of that...

https://twitter.com/SamHananelAP/status/519121467867664384



> In a big surprise, Supreme Court denies appeals in gay marriage cases, making it legal in Indiana, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Virgina and Utah.


----------



## asher

Is there ever a time when the "States' Rights!" argument ISN'T used to enforce discrimination on a group?


----------



## inprognito

asher said:


> Is there ever a time when the "States' Rights!" argument ISN'T used to enforce discrimination on a group?



Marijuana laws? Maybe even abortion laws.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

asher said:


> Is there ever a time when the "States' Rights!" argument ISN'T used to enforce discrimination on a group?


 
Plenty of times, yes. I'm a strong advocate of States' rights in many situations, and have been quick to point out several times here on SSO when people are attributing State issues to the country as a whole. It's possible and likely fairly common (though I have no numbers to back it up) to believe in States' rights _and_ social equality for all.


----------



## asher

I'm sure it is, but that's most of the places I feel like I see the argument being used.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Idaho And Nevada Marriage Bans Are Unconstitutional, Federal Appeals Court Rules


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Charleston Daily Mail | W.Va. won&#x2019;t fight challenge to gay-marriage ban


----------



## Explorer

So once this current round of denials of stays and appeals happens, it will be, what, 35 states with marriage equality? 

Meanwhile, the National Organization for Marriage (the same sex marriage haters to whom Orson Scott Card gave money, and for whom he served on the board) is now targeting Target for daring to have a same-sex-parents family in an advertisement. 

I'm sure like Cheerios and Starbucks before them, Target will discover that being accepting like Christ preached will prove profitable, and the NOM will again gnash its cracked and yellowing teeth in rage as the old order dies away....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Federal judge rules Alaska's same-sex marriage ban unconstitutional | Alaska Dispatch

Suck it, Palin.


----------



## ferret

The local Kroger and Target here in Georgia, of all places, which to my knowledge is still illegal for gay marriage, are selling "Him & Him" and "Her & Her" marriage cards. Interesting.


----------



## smucarolina

Not going to lie...tonight's south park was hilarious. As a supporter of the LGBT community I thought it was great. Good laugh.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah I thought that the trans episode of south park was going to be incendiary, but it actually had a pretty cool message. Mr. Garrison's "royal flush" joke had me rolling.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

https://twitter.com/ReutersUS/status/523132157884399616



> Federal judge strikes down Arizona's ban on gay marriage, declaring it unconstitutional: court papers


----------



## ferret

Wyoming's Gay Marriage Ban Struck Down As Unconstitutional

Wyoming can appeal, but also had their ban struck today.

Alaska, Arizona gays win marriage rights; Wyoming next?

Also, Alaska's appeal for a stay was denied.

Arizona says they won't try to appeal, claiming a waste of taxpayer money to do so... Wish they had thought of that before?


----------



## tacotiklah

You know what would REALLY have saved taxpayers a lot of money? If SCOTUS grew some balls and legalized it at a federal level. Then there'd be no need for appeals, stays, and other forms of litigious financial waste.
Can't win 'em all, I guess.


----------



## ferret

I'm not sure why this caught my eye as I scanned through Facebook... but it did. I'm not really a fan of Dolly Parton or anything, but I liked her answer.

Dolly Parton Talks Supporting Gay Fans | Billboard

*Dollywood attracts lots of church groups, but it has also become a draw for the LGBT community. What does that say about you?*

It's a place for entertainment, a place for all families, period. It's for all that. But as far as the Christians, if people want to pass judgment, they're already sinning. The sin of judging is just as bad as any other sin they might say somebody else is committing. I try to love everybody.

*You have a large gay following. To what do you attribute that?*

They know that I completely love and accept them, as I do all people. I've struggled enough in my life to be appreciated and understood. I've had to go against all kinds of people through the years just to be myself. I think everybody should be allowed to be who they are, and to love who they love. I don't think we should be judgmental. Lord, I've got enough problems of my own to pass judgment on somebody else.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Judge Strikes Down Gay Marriage Ban in Kansas | G Philly


----------



## tacotiklah

Somewhere deep in the distant corners of Topeka, there is the sound of weeping and gnashing of teeth from Shelley Phelps and her ilk. Her tears of sadness are a joy and nourishment to my soul.


----------



## ferret

Very unfortunate news:
Court Reverses Rulings In Four States, Upholds Marriage Bans

Sixth Court upheld bans...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Doesn't this mean that it goes up to the supreme court now?


----------



## ferret

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Doesn't this mean that it goes up to the supreme court now?



Not going to pretend to be a legal scholar, but commentary I read last night indicated that the majority (2 Bush appointees) basically ruled that the court did not have the legal standing to overturn the ban... So they basically ruled that they don't have the power of judical review?

So if it goes to the Supreme Court, it would be likely to be resolved the same as CA's Prop 8... ban overturned on technicality, in that the ruling itself is flawed, rather than finally ruling that the Constitution protects the right to marry for gay couples and putting the matter to rest..

Someone else posted that it might be better to have the appeal go before the full sixth and be overturned again there, rather than going to the Supreme Court and having another "on a technicality" type win.


----------



## ferret

South Carolina Gay Marriage Ban Ruled Unconstitutional


----------



## Alice AKW

So I did my final speech on trans stuff if you guys wanted to have a look.


----------



## tacotiklah

See, this is how you parent. Do this with your kids, and the next generation will grow up a little less hateful:
Dad Accidentally Discovers His Teenage Son Is Gay And Handles It Like A Real Man / Queerty


----------



## asher




----------



## Discoqueen

That article was so heart-warming! It brought a single tear to my eye when the dad talked about how they cuddled. What a champion!


----------



## ferret

Judge Lifts Same-Sex Marriage Ban In Montana


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Judge overturns Mississippi same-sex marriage ban

And Arkansas


----------



## asopala

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Judge overturns Mississippi same-sex marriage ban
> 
> And Arkansas



Wow, we're making great progress within the past few months with all these states allowing gay marriage. Is this the whole "slippery slope" the homophobes were talking about? Cause as a straight ally, I'm liking it.


----------



## Curt

loving this rapid sweep of the gay marriage bans being lifted.
Now if we can get more states with insurance that cover the surgical procedures for transgender people, things will be even better.


----------



## tacotiklah

Damn... the governor of Kansas got a door slammed in his face here. 
Breaking: 10th Circuit Slaps Down State Of Kansas On Marriage - The New Civil Rights Movement


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Equal Marriage now legal in Scotland


----------



## asher

Scotland, Wales, and New Zealand:

the only places where the slippery slope argument to marrying farm animals might apply!

Hello, Dolly...


----------



## Randy

Heartbreaking story, but her words deserve to be read:



> If you are reading this, it means that I have committed suicide and obviously failed to delete this post from my queue.
> 
> Please don't be sad, it's for the better. The life I would've lived isn't worth living in&#8230; because I'm transgender. I could go into detail explaining why I feel that way, but this note is probably going to be lengthy enough as it is. To put it simply, I feel like a girl trapped in a boy's body, and I've felt that way ever since I was 4. I never knew there was a word for that feeling, nor was it possible for a boy to become a girl, so I never told anyone and I just continued to do traditionally 'boyish' things to try to fit in.
> 
> When I was 14, I learned what transgender meant and cried of happiness. After 10 years of confusion I finally understood who I was. I immediately told my mom, and she reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn't make mistakes, that I am wrong. If you are reading this, parents, please don't tell this to your kids. Even if you are Christian or are against transgender people don't ever say that to someone, especially your kid. That won't do anything but make them hate them self. That's exactly what it did to me.
> 
> My mom started taking me to a therapist, but would only take me to christian therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I needed to cure me of my depression. I only got more Christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to God for help.
> 
> When I was 16 I realized that my parents would never come around, and that I would have to wait until I was 18 to start any sort of transitioning treatment, which absolutely broke my heart. The longer you wait, the harder it is to transition. I felt hopeless, that I was just going to look like a man in drag for the rest of my life. On my 16th birthday, when I didn't receive consent from my parents to start transitioning, I cried myself to sleep.
> 
> I formed a sort of a 'f*** you' attitude towards my parents and came out as gay at school, thinking that maybe if I eased into coming out as trans it would be less of a shock. Although the reaction from my friends was positive, my parents were pissed. They felt like I was attacking their image, and that I was an embarrassment to them. They wanted me to be their perfect little straight christian boy, and that's obviously not what I wanted.
> 
> So they took me out of public school, took away my laptop and phone, and forbid me of getting on any sort of social media, completely isolating me from my friends. This was probably the part of my life when I was the most depressed, and I'm surprised I didn't kill myself. I was completely alone for 5 months. No friends, no support, no love. Just my parent's disappointment and the cruelty of loneliness.
> 
> At the end of the school year, my parents finally came around and gave me my phone and let me back on social media. I was excited, I finally had my friends back. They were extremely excited to see me and talk to me, but only at first. Eventually they realized they didn't actually give a s**t about me, and I felt even lonelier than I did before. The only friends I thought I had only liked me because they saw me five times a week.
> 
> After a summer of having almost no friends plus the weight of having to think about college, save money for moving out, keep my grades up, go to church each week and feel like s**t because everyone there is against everything I live for, I have decided I've had enough. I'm never going to transition successfully, even when I move out. I'm never going to be happy with the way I look or sound. I'm never going to have enough friends to satisfy me. I'm never going to have enough love to satisfy me. I'm never going to find a man who loves me. I'm never going to be happy. Either I live the rest of my life as a lonely man who wishes he were a woman or I live my life as a lonelier woman who hates herself. There's no winning. There's no way out. I'm sad enough already, I don't need my life to get any worse. People say 'it gets better' but that isn't true in my case. It gets worse. Each day I get worse.
> 
> That's the gist of it, that's why I feel like killing myself. Sorry if that's not a good enough reason for you, it's good enough for me. As for my will, I want 100% of the things that I legally own to be sold and the money (plus my money in the bank) to be given to trans civil rights movements and support groups, I don't give a s**t which one. The only way I will rest in peace is if one day transgender people aren't treated the way I was, they're treated like humans, with valid feelings and human rights. Gender needs to be taught about in schools, the earlier the better. My death needs to mean something. My death needs to be counted in the number of transgender people who commit suicide this year. I want someone to look at that number and say 'that's f***ed up' and fix it. Fix society. Please.
> 
> Goodbye,
> 
> (Leelah) Josh Alcorn



Suicide note of transgender Leelah Alcorn is DELETED from her Tumblr page | Daily Mail Online


----------



## asher

Fvck people.

I hope her parents learn the right thing from this.

But I'm not expecting much.


----------



## ferret

Her parents comments on everything about it are just absolutely awful.


----------



## asher

Actually read the article, not just the post.

Fvck them.


----------



## Cloudy

Wow her parents were cruel, I truly feel sorry for this poor girl. Maybe now they'll get it through their thick skulls that it isn't a choice.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Yeah, her parents tried covering it up or some shit last I recall. If there is a hell, I hope they rot in it. Cruelty at its finest.


----------



## tacotiklah

The fact that there are actually people who think the parents were completely blameless in this sickens me. I almost never agree with Dan Savage (who I'm just blown away at his sudden liking of transgenders, given in the past he's said that they are really gay men trying to be accepted as women) but I feel this whole situation should be investigated; the parents, the "therapists", everyone because there was obvious neglect and signs of emotional and mental abuse. 

Having grown up in a similar situation as her with my dad and his now ex-wife, I know firsthand the amount of hate that's involved in this kind of shit, and it's all wrapped up in the guise of love. It's why I literally waited 12 years to come out. I knew I'd have been beaten to death if I did. I recognize the parallels in her story and in mine, and if her words are true, then she very much was being abused.


----------



## Alice AKW

As a teenage transgirl myself, my god does this story tick all the wrong switches with me.


----------



## tacotiklah

In case anyone is wondering why I think Dan Savage is full of shit and needs to be shamed into shutting up forever:
Bad Tranny - Savage Love by Dan Savage - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper


----------



## tacotiklah

Yep, Russia is gettin' pretty scary with their laws...
Russia Tells All People With 'Sex Disorders' To Hand In Their Drivers' Licenses - The New Civil Rights Movement


----------



## Thorerges

Curt said:


> loving this rapid sweep of the gay marriage bans being lifted.
> Now if we can get more states with insurance that cover the surgical procedures for transgender people, things will be even better.



You mean kind of like health insurance for transgenders?


----------



## Alice AKW

More or less, I'd imagine. It gets a little tricky as, even though the government will recognize trans folk as their identified gender, some of the medical procedures are not the same sorts of things that a born woman would need.


----------



## Necris

Virginia anti-gay bill would let schools and hospitals turn gays away.

This "conscience/moral conviction" clause horse shit that allows people not to do their job and instead act within their own prejudices is going to keep floating from state to state.


----------



## tacotiklah

Homophobia and transphobia violates my conscious/moral convictions therefore I'm all for the state discriminating against these businesses by pulling their operating licenses.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Federal judge strikes down South Dakota's gay marriage ban

On a more positive note.


----------



## Eliguy666

Finally find somebody into polyamory who seemed cool, and they sexually assaulted me. Being queer can really suck sometimes 
(Incident happened a couple months ago, and I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt even afterwards because I was way too optimistic).


----------



## Alice AKW

Finding a good poly relationship is a biiiiitch.


----------



## tacotiklah

^I'm having trouble even finding one person these days. It's weird because I was getting all the dick and vag I wanted about a year ago.

I've fallen on hard times, yo!


----------



## Eliguy666

In better news, though, me and a close ace friend have become cuddlefriends, so that's fun.


----------



## ferret

Back to the Supreme Court!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/17/u...e-whether-gays-nationwide-can-marry.html?_r=0

If I'm reading right, unless the court dodges again, this will decide things for all 50 states.


----------



## Explorer

I try not to focus on how the marriage issue is progressing through the courts, mainly because even though it's very fast in some ways, it's at a snail's pace in others.

I did think there was an interesting observation in the Forbes analysis of the SCotUS decision to review the cases: In spite of all the people who have used the argument that states shouldn't be in the marriage business, not a single state has gotten out of that business when same sex marriage was legalized. Not one state had enough people to make the state change how it had been in the marriage business.

And I suspect that those who have transparently argued against the states licensing marriage in order to oppose same sex marriage just don't have the numbers to make even one such state change its involvement.


----------



## Eliguy666

Out of curiosity: what kind of life arrangements do you guys have? I'm growing increasingly interested in the idea of living in a multi-partner household when I'm older, but it's still a really freaky thing to think about.


----------



## tacotiklah

I'm open to polyamoury, but I'm having trouble even finding one person at the moment. My mind is more focused on fixing that than it is finding more than one person right now.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Eliguy666 said:


> Out of curiosity: what kind of life arrangements do you guys have? I'm growing increasingly interested in the idea of living in a multi-partner household when I'm older, but it's still a really freaky thing to think about.



It can work, but it's infinitely more difficult than a "regular" relationship. When there's only two people involved there are always bumpy patches. The more people you add, the more variables there are, the harder it is to even things out when you hit the bumpy patches. You also have to balance everything out so nobody ever feels left out.

My ex and I had someone else we'd include sexually on a fairly frequent basis. Our relationship was always pretty healthy. We're all still very close friends, and I love them both to death, and the feeling is mutual.

just don't romanticize the idea too much and all should be well.


----------



## Alice AKW

^As stated above, not feeling left out is the absolute biggest part of making a poly relationship or arrangement work, as jealousy in any form is the cancer of relationships.

Personally, I have always liked the idea of having one lover but keeping the relationship somewhat open both sexually and emotionally, as I care for too many people for my own good and a lot of the folks I hook up with are the same way.

There's a huge element of trust to letting your lover sleep around and not A: run off or B: bring home an STD or get another knocked up. But if that level of love and trust is there... it can be a truly magical thing.


----------



## Eliguy666

I can get that, and I've always been a pretty trusting and unjealous person. This might be an odd perspective, but I've already felt like, polyamorous or not, a relationship is going to fail if the trust isn't there.


----------



## Alice AKW

Couldn't be more accurate in my opinion.


----------



## tacotiklah

Being in a poly relationship takes more work and trust than a monogamous one, so I wouldn't recommend it if you get jealous easily or have insecurity issues to work out beforehand. 

Come to think of it, you probably shouldn't be in any kind of relationship if that's the case.


----------



## Explorer

I'm a serial monogamist.

Honesty is key. I've been involved with people who claimed to be monogamist, but turned out to be serial cheaters. 

It comes down to being honest, both with others and with yourself. Some folks conceal what they really want or who they really are in order to have a chance with someone who would choose otherwise if given a free choice. You get people who claim to be open to a type of relationship which they are not truly comfortable with, and then problems emerge when the rubber hits the road down the line. 

If you have to lie or fudge the truth to get what you want, it's about you and not about a relationship or the other person.


----------



## NcLean

Explorer said:


> I'm a serial monogamist.



I think that's a misnomer. One item in serial is one item, making the serial description redundant.

Having been in poly relationships for a good long while, I'm pretty sure that the problems in poly relationships are qualitatively similar to mono relationships, they're just more complicated. Hey, maybe my love of complicated things has got something to do with the crazy math-metal I love.


----------



## Necris

Lonesome Alito Declares Marriage Only Between A Man And The Sea | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

 I love The Onion so much.


----------



## asher

NcLean said:


> I think that's a misnomer. One item in serial is one item, making the serial description redundant.
> 
> Having been in poly relationships for a good long while, I'm pretty sure that the problems in poly relationships are qualitatively similar to mono relationships, they're just more complicated. Hey, maybe my love of complicated things has got something to do with the crazy math-metal I love.



Pretty sure it's a perfectly fine way to describe a string of monogamous relationships.


----------



## tacotiklah

^^So awesome.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Explorer said:


> I'm a serial monogamist.
> 
> Honesty is key. I've been involved with people who claimed to be monogamist, but turned out to be serial cheaters.
> 
> It comes down to being honest, both with others and with yourself. Some folks conceal what they really want or who they really are in order to have a chance with someone who would choose otherwise if given a free choice. You get people who claim to be open to a type of relationship which they are not truly comfortable with, and then problems emerge when the rubber hits the road down the line.
> 
> If you have to lie or fudge the truth to get what you want, it's about you and not about a relationship or the other person.



I have a friend who claimed to be in an open relationship. Since I knew him for so long, I knew he wasn't really okay with it. Didn't take long for that relationship to blow up into a million pieces. Not before he married her though.


----------



## tacotiklah

I know a lot of straight guys out there that tend to fantasize about open relationships because "hell yeah! I get 3somes and stuff!", but as a person that does open relationships, I tend to have to burst their bubble. Most of the time, it's really not worth the extra effort.


----------



## Eliguy666

tacotiklah said:


> I know a lot of straight guys out there that tend to fantasize about open relationships because "hell yeah! I get 3somes and stuff!", but as a person that does open relationships, I tend to have to burst their bubble. Most of the time, it's really not worth the extra effort.



Yeah, the idea of groupsex seems like the least appealing part of polyamory to me. It honestly seems kinda impractical, physically awkward, and impossible to arrange. 

I honestly don't see the point between people thinking that romantic affection and sex need to happen at the same time with the same people. A heart is a heart, a dick is a dick.


----------



## Explorer

NcLean said:


> I think that's a misnomer. One item in serial is one item, making the serial description redundant.



I might only have decided that I wanted monogamy recently, in my current relationship. 

Someone might have cheated only once. I do know someone who has cheated in numerous relationships for over 20 years. I would distinguish between the serial cheater I know and someone who cheated once, by using the term "serial cheater."

Serial monogamist indicates to most that not only do I engage in monogamous relationships, but that i have consistently done so. In my case, I've probably been doing so longer than some of the younger SS.org members have been alive.


----------



## ferret

Barack Obama Tells Congress Same-Sex Marriage Is A Civil Right At State of the Union - The New Civil Rights Movement


----------



## soliloquy

my stance on LGBT is that of indifference. it doesn't change my life in any way/shape or form about who likes what and does what behind closed doors. though i dont have too many pet peeves and a fairly easy going person, i can not, and will not tolerate any kind of discrimination; especially if its sexual related. i have, and will continue fighting tooth and nail to give people freedom to explore whatever sexual nature they enjoy (so long as consent is being observed and no one is bullying anyone). 

with that said, i've had a few friends that have come out to me. two of them have had a fairly easy life with accepting parents, and they were easily able to find the right partner(s) that helped them settle into a relatively easy life. and i have to say, for anyone to come out to me, i feel honoured as, though i'm straight, i can only imagine how difficult some people's live are who are LGBT. 

that brings me to the latest person that came out to me. just like the other 2 previous ones, this friend was confused as to why i didn't find it shocking/surprising about them being gay. i did, however, feel horrible for her though. she went on about how she's been living a double life just to make her family and her culture happy, though deep down she's miserable as she can not relate to anything in that fake life. there comes her fight with depression, drugs, confusion and fear that have caused her great grief and related health issues. and though its not my life, i dont know how to help her. i did write this for her though. 

that lie you told the world
just to watch it heal itself
bleeds through the pages
and the lines you've been writing.

that pain you've been holding
behind that thin mask of yours
that fake life you've been living
it aint yours to throw away

you've hoped for a cure
for a friend you can cry on
you hoped they would accept you
for the beauty that you are

the darkness of that closet
that you've been calling home
shouldn't be your solace
you should be free like the rest of them. 





one thing that tugs at me is my culture and its dealings with LGBT people. i'm from south asia (india/pakistan area) and in the language urdu/hindi, there is no official word for 'gay' 'lesbian' 'bi' 'trans' etc. there is a word 'hijra' that is commonly used to describe LGBT people, however its not accurate. the term 'hijra' is mainly translated as a 'cross dressing man'. as such, a gay/lesbian/bi/trans/etc person, by default is called a 'cross dressing man'. there is a word for 'tomboy', but again, that is not the same thing either. as such, people who identify themselves as LGBT can not even describe themselves as whatever they feel, their vocabulary doesn't exist to describe that. sure, there is exclusion that many LGBT people face in many parts of the world, but imagine that there is no language you know that describes you, yourself, as an individual. its complete omission of a persons identity thats hidden behind ignorance. 



i do find it slightly amusing that people who are so insecure with their sexuality are often times the first to hate on anything related to homosexuality.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

soliloquy said:


> my stance on LGBT is that of indifference. it doesn't change my life in any way/shape or form about who likes what and does what behind closed doors. though i dont have too many pet peeves and a fairly easy going person, i can not, and will not tolerate any kind of discrimination; especially if its sexual related. i have, and will continue fighting tooth and nail to give people freedom to explore whatever sexual nature they enjoy (so long as consent is being observed and no one is bullying anyone).
> 
> with that said, i've had a few friends that have come out to me. two of them have had a fairly easy life with accepting parents, and they were easily able to find the right partner(s) that helped them settle into a relatively easy life. and i have to say, for anyone to come out to me, i feel honoured as, though i'm straight, i can only imagine how difficult some people's live are who are LGBT.
> 
> that brings me to the latest person that came out to me. just like the other 2 previous ones, this friend was confused as to why i didn't find it shocking/surprising about them being gay. i did, however, feel horrible for her though. she went on about how she's been living a double life just to make her family and her culture happy, though deep down she's miserable as she can not relate to anything in that fake life. there comes her fight with depression, drugs, confusion and fear that have caused her great grief and related health issues. and though its not my life, i dont know how to help her. i did write this for her though.
> 
> that lie you told the world
> just to watch it heal itself
> bleeds through the pages
> and the lines you've been writing.
> 
> that pain you've been holding
> behind that thin mask of yours
> that fake life you've been living
> it aint yours to throw away
> 
> you've hoped for a cure
> for a friend you can cry on
> you hoped they would accept you
> for the beauty that you are
> 
> the darkness of that closet
> that you've been calling home
> shouldn't be your solace
> you should be free like the rest of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one thing that tugs at me is my culture and its dealings with LGBT people. i'm from south asia (india/pakistan area) and in the language urdu/hindi, there is no official word for 'gay' 'lesbian' 'bi' 'trans' etc. there is a word 'hijra' that is commonly used to describe LGBT people, however its not accurate. the term 'hijra' is mainly translated as a 'cross dressing man'. as such, a gay/lesbian/bi/trans/etc person, by default is called a 'cross dressing man'. there is a word for 'tomboy', but again, that is not the same thing either. as such, people who identify themselves as LGBT can not even describe themselves as whatever they feel, their vocabulary doesn't exist to describe that. sure, there is exclusion that many LGBT people face in many parts of the world, but imagine that there is no language you know that describes you, yourself, as an individual. its complete omission of a persons identity thats hidden behind ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> i do find it slightly amusing that people who are so insecure with their sexuality are often times the first to hate on anything related to homosexuality.



That shit's rough. Not having a way to describe yourself I mean. A lot of people actually fight with it. Somehow being able to attach a word to who you are makes it a bit easier. Definitely be openly supportive to your friend. Living a lie of a life is painful to do, and it's not unheard of that people will fall into deep depression and may end up committing suicide. The whole Leelah Alcorn thing from a page back comes to mind.

I wish your friend luck in their endeavors.


----------



## soliloquy

i was talking to my other two gay friends regarding my friend and her situation. i was just asking as to what they went through and how my friend can better handle her life due to it. was surprised they both volunteered saying they wanna meet her and help her out personally if she's comfortable with it. 

talked to my friend, and she doesn't have any friends in that community, thus feels even more isolated. so at least thats a plus


----------



## ferret

Judge Strikes Down Alabama's Gay Marriage Ban

That means GA might follow shortly, since it's the same circuit, aye? Assuming anyone in GA files, before Supreme Court decides.


----------



## Eliguy666

Eliguy666 said:


> In better news, though, me and a close ace friend have become cuddlefriends, so that's fun.



Aaaand now we're dating


----------



## tacotiklah

Hell yeah! 

Congrats to you both.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

11th Circuit Denies Stay of Alabama Marriage Ruling


----------



## Varcolac

soliloquy said:


> one thing that tugs at me is my culture and its dealings with LGBT people. i'm from south asia (india/pakistan area) and in the language urdu/hindi, there is no official word for 'gay' 'lesbian' 'bi' 'trans' etc. there is a word 'hijra' that is commonly used to describe LGBT people, however its not accurate. the term 'hijra' is mainly translated as a 'cross dressing man'. as such, a gay/lesbian/bi/trans/etc person, by default is called a 'cross dressing man'. there is a word for 'tomboy', but again, that is not the same thing either. as such, people who identify themselves as LGBT can not even describe themselves as whatever they feel, their vocabulary doesn't exist to describe that. sure, there is exclusion that many LGBT people face in many parts of the world, but imagine that there is no language you know that describes you, yourself, as an individual. its complete omission of a persons identity thats hidden behind ignorance.



My ex is also from a South Asian family - the Hijra thing seems both a problematic and helpful thing to have. On the one hand, the "T" part of "LGBT" has an easy foothold (the way she explained it to me, they're more of a "3rd gender" than your "crossdressing man" paradigm, but maybe Hindus do it differently). They occupy some weird space in society though - feared, respected, repulsive, needed - so for someone that doesn't want to be "the 3rd-gender person that does blessings" (which I'm sure is the vast majority - none of my trans friends do or want to do blessings) it's a pretty stupid category to be put in.

For those who fall under the "LGB" side of this thread's acronym it's worse. I have genderqueer friends who're intensely annoyed at being misgendered. I have trans friends who've grown callusses on their tongues from correcting people. Being mis_gendered_ for your sexual preference? And as a gender that's already going through enough crap from society? All kinds of wrong.

I sometimes like the term "men who have sex with men." It describes what you go to bed with, with far fewer of the cultural implications.


----------



## Danukenator

My bro got his first boyfriend and is taking him home for dinner with the family! I'm maddd excited for him. I'll miss it since I'm studying abroad but I'm happy for him.


----------



## Explorer

Regarding it being hard for someone to know what terms to use, and any outrage arising from such:

Is there universal agreement in the LGBT community, with all members thereof agreeing as a monolithic block, on what words and definitions are universally used and universally correct?


----------



## Danukenator

Explorer said:


> Is there universal agreement in the LGBT community, with all members thereof agreeing as a monolithic block, on what words and definitions are universally used and universally correct?



I don't think so. I some people that have requested people to say "ze" and others that think ze is stupid and would prefer "they."

I think the only hard and fast rule is to politely ask (if it's not clear from the context of the situation) if you are unsure and then use that. Generally, people seem to not mind if you ask because it shows you care.


----------



## tacotiklah

The universal rule of pronouns:
1.) Use whatever pronouns the person asks you to use regarding them
2.) Ask if you aren't sure

There ya go.


----------



## Eliguy666

3. It's alright if you make a mistake, but apologize and attempt to use the correct pronouns in said apology.
4. If you argue with somebody about _their_ gender identity, you're a wanker.


----------



## Seybsnilksz

I don't have much to do with this thread, but I thought that this maybe was something to discuss or laugh at or whatever:

First this happened:
Ruling Update - Iron Solari League

Then: 
Statement on Issue Surrounding Iron Solari player restriction

Really strange that this even was taken into consideration. And no one knows what the "unfair advantages" were.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Holy shit, it turns out gay marriage WILL effect traditional marriage!

...Only if a probate judge gets butthurt and stops giving marriage licenses altogether because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. 

Wow. Just wow.


----------



## flint757

Those comments contain so many peppy religious bigots. It's almost funny until you realize how sad it really is.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Gay Marriage Cleared by U.S. High Court to Start in Alabama - Bloomberg Politics



EDIT: Someone even compiled a list of officiants that are willing to do same-sex marriages.


----------



## Explorer

It's astounding to me that a judge would use the "good German" defense for following an unlawful order. 

Tuscaloosa County denies same-sex marriage licenses - MyFoxAL.com - FOX6 WBRC Birmingham, AL

It must be an Alabama conservative thing.


----------



## ferret

Kate Brown Becomes Governor After John Kitzhaber Resigns - The Atlantic

First openly bisexual governor... perhaps first openly LGBT governor as well.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

State Judge Rules in Favor of the Freedom to Marry in Texas | Texas for Marriage


----------



## tacotiklah

And in today's episode of "Haters That Get Outed for Hypocrisy", one of transfemale mma fighter Fallon Fox's critics gets busted for testing positive for a banned substance that's used to gain an unfair advantage...

Fighter who said Fallon Fox should be banned from MMA is banned for cheating - Outsports


----------



## Danukenator

My bro moved in with his boyfriend! It's adorable seeing how happy he is to be in a committed relationship!


----------



## ferret

Federal Judge Overturns Nebraska Gay Marriage Ban

Nebraska will appeal.


----------



## michblanch

Danukenator said:


> My bro moved in with his boyfriend! It's adorable seeing how happy he is to be in a committed relationship!



It's pretty great of you to support your brother. 
I can't imagine how nervous and scared a young person must be coming out to their parents and family. 

My cousin and I were talking one day and he mentioned acceptance by the family. Then he told me he was gay. I told him I knew it since we were kids , but I loved him and would never stop. I accepted him since childhood and told him that more people in the family know you are gay than you think. 
It's in his nature, it's who he is and we all probably knew it before he ever figured out he was gay. 
I told him our grandparents , uncles , aunts and cousins already knew. 
It made it easier for him to open himself without the fear of being hurt.

Love him and always will. 
Done deal.


----------



## ferret

Typically, while we tend to focus on the US news-wise in this thread.... Alabama is busy setting itself up to be the final straw...

Meanwhile, in Slovenia...

Slovenia becomes 11th EU nation to approve gay marriage | euronews, world news


----------



## ferret

Gay Marriage Bans Are Unconstitutional, DOJ Tells Supreme Court

Things are going to really get going next month.


----------



## Abaddon9112

So something totally weird happened to me last week that I thought I'd share because it was very eye-opening. And probably life-changing in the grand scheme of things. 

A good friend of mine and I were having an argument about gender politics on facebook all week. Him and I grew up in the same town in South Jersey (which is a horribly backward, conservative place) and we were total awkward nerds all our lives. Both of us were obsessed with gruesome goregrind and death metal in a school where that was totally uncool. We dressed weird; I had kind of a Victorian Goth aesthetic for a while and he basically wore grungey-ass nerd shit. And both of us had a lot of trouble with fitting in with other guys, and dating girls. And it pretty much ....ed both of our worldviews up big time for life. 

Since going away to college, this buddy has gotten very obsessed with Internet Anti-Feminism, pick-up artistry and Men's Rights activism. And not in a reasonable way; he literally thought that stuff was the best thing since Jesus Christ and had absolutely changed his attitude toward relationships. He was becoming very preachy and mean about feminism and women in general and it was beginning to make me very uncomfortable around him. Because I basically don't relate to other men all that much, most of my friends are women, and most men I really like have fairly balanced, gender neutral personalities. 

Anyway, long story short, I lost my patience and tried to explain my point of view as reasonably as I could, but make it clear that I thought he was being a dick and out of touch with who he really is. The problem was, I had no interest in gender politics at all; and all of his info was from biased Men's Rights forums. So I had to try to refute the premises of his viewpoint and show him that MRA is sexist and conservative. But he had a lot of good points about feminism that had fairly unbiased evidence behind them, that I couldn't fully address. 

So one night, I was stressing out...my friend was turning mad sexist, and there's nothing I could do. So I prayed and meditated (to God, or the Universe, or whatever...its just something that helps me cool down really) and it hit me. That *I* actually just don't fit in to standard binary gender norms. I'm a very passive, emotional, sensitive and "feminine" person. But I have a male body, which I'm totally okay with. And as far as I can tell I'm exclusively attracted to biological women. So I'm not gay, bi, and I'm not transsexual. But in a strict sense you could say I'm transgender. And I've always thought of God as an undifferentiated, genderless unity like in Kabbalah. What could be more Queer than that LOL! 

What I realized was that both Men's Rights as an ideology and feminism have an intrinsic problem with dualistic thinking. But modern science and sociology and psychology have shown that human gender and sexuality are waaayyyy more complex than just straight, gay, man, woman. And that a more holistic gender theory like the LGBTQ (especially the Q) movement has, would just make more sense. 

And my buddy agreed. He's totally on board with the Queer movement in principle, even though he identifies different than I do. I think I got him to accept that he has a bit of a problem with sexism and bias. And I myself basically realized that I fit in more in the LGBTQ spectrums than any other way of thinking about gender. 

I'm an effeminate, heterosexual man. And I'm totally okay with that for the first time in my life. And lots of good guys are like me, really. Shit, lots of rock and roll musicians are like me! Maybe most even lol. All of my preconceptions about the LGBTQ movement completely dissolved just by thinking about myself, my friend, and what we believe. I found myself in the course of trying to help my best bud out. That is radical, my friends.


----------



## Alice AKW

Gender, Gender identity, and sexuality are all completely independent sliding scales, and people don't realize this.

Congrats.


----------



## Abaddon9112

^Thank you! 

I'm still very new to the whole thing and need to read up on this subject. But life makes way more sense looking back on it now.


----------



## Alice AKW

EDIT: Wrong thread.


----------



## Eliguy666

Hey Abaddon, it sounds from your description like you're genderqueer! So you could call yourself trans, it's up to you, and you're almost definitely non-binary.
It's possible to be male and genderqueer, because your expression is feminine while your identified sex is male.


----------



## asher

tldr Abaddon is the second coming of Mick Jagger!

I'm only mostly being flippant. I don't think many would really call him particularly manly, but he (was) a huge sexual icon. It's totally doable 

An actual minor niggle: feminism is dualist by necessity because it's... reacting to a sexist, dualist system. It's kinda the whole point  If we ever hit a point where we truly have 100% equality between sexes (and genders), we wouldn't really need feminism any more.


----------



## Abaddon9112

asher said:


> tldr Abaddon is the second coming of Mick Jagger!
> 
> I'm only mostly being flippant. I don't think many would really call him particularly manly, but he (was) a huge sexual icon. It's totally doable
> 
> An actual minor niggle: feminism is dualist by necessity because it's... reacting to a sexist, dualist system. It's kinda the whole point  If we ever hit a point where we truly have 100% equality between sexes (and genders), we wouldn't really need feminism any more.



I guess I could be the second coming of Mick Jagger. I wasn't aware he had passed on though  



Yeah I totally agree about feminism. But a lot of the trouble that people who graduated from the Rush Limbaugh School of Gender Politics have with it is rooted in dualisms (like the name, mainly). People hear "feminism" and think its some female supremacist militia or something. It might take my friend a while to see that, but whatever. 

At the very least we're both a little wiser.


----------



## Abaddon9112

Eliguy666 said:


> Hey Abaddon, it sounds from your description like you're genderqueer! So you could call yourself trans, it's up to you, and you're almost definitely non-binary.
> It's possible to be male and genderqueer, because your expression is feminine while your identified sex is male.



I actually identify as a GirlyMan but I can see how some people might find that offensive. 

Non-binary, agender, gender-neutral, something in that field is probably best but I'm not too picky about the specifics right now.


----------



## Eliguy666

Oh, that's totally cool. The term I use with friends is "bishdyke".


----------



## Explorer

A friend of mine has started identifying as an androphile, a term picked up from Jack Donovan. 

What's funny is that the term itself doesn't have any gender embedded in it referring to the "phile."


----------



## tacotiklah

Good to hear that you felt comfortable enough about who you are to share Abaddon. 
Self discovery is what we're all about here. Took me ages to come out about my sexuality and gender identity on here, although the sexuality part was probably more difficult. 

The crazy thing is that once I owned up to who I really was, my confidence levels went through the roof. I became a much better person for it.


----------



## UnderTheSign

https://www.change.org/p/california...twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive


----------



## stradfire

Love this thread, it needs to be here and it's a great place to learn, support, and feel supported no matter who you are.

Back to the shadows for me


----------



## tacotiklah

Thanks, and I'm always happy to help people with this sort of thing. It's rough enough to confront who we are even with support, nevermind feeling like you got nobody out there. If nothing else, I'll be that person out there. 

Cheesy song related:


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ireland passes same-sex marriage referendum - CNN.com

This is awesome. 60% voter turnout (which is pretty damn high ), and 65% vote in favor of same-sex marriage. This makes Ireland the first country to legalize SSM with a popular vote. Awesome job guys.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Caitlyn Jenner on the Cover of Vanity Fair | Vanity Fair







Absolutely stunning.


----------



## tacotiklah

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Caitlyn Jenner on the Cover of Vanity Fair | Vanity Fair
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely stunning.





Also, I heard that she was being described as a love child between Jessica Lange and Rene Russo. I'd have to agree.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Here's a good read from Laverne Cox.

The last part is why I'm glad she did this...



> I hope, as I know Caitlyn does, that the love she is receiving can translate into changing hearts and minds about who all trans people are as well as shifting public policies to fully support the lives and well being of all of us. The struggle continues&#8230;



I'm glad such a big deal is being made about this. The less demonisation towards trans people, the better. 

Because the .... I've seen hating towards this is bad. I've seen some people on another forum saying that trans people should be quiet about it, and even implying that it's a mental illness. I mean, it's not surprising, since we didn't drop the "homosexuality is a mental illness" thing until the '70s.


----------



## tacotiklah

^Yep, I've been seeing a "it's a mental illness" thing getting dropped around facebook too. Oh and that Caitlyn can't be brave because only the troops can show bravery.


----------



## Eliguy666

tacotiklah said:


> ^Yep, I've been seeing a "it's a mental illness" thing getting dropped around facebook too. Oh and that Caitlyn can't be brave because only the troops can show bravery.



I appreciate the sacrifices that American troops make, but calling them all brave without qualification is a really dangerous thing to do. We've had serious issues with sexual assault, racial-violence (specifically during Middle-East occupation at moment), and financial corruption in the higher ranks.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

tacotiklah said:


> ^Yep, I've been seeing a "it's a mental illness" thing getting dropped around facebook too. Oh and that Caitlyn can't be brave because only the troops can show bravery.



This one pisses me off beyond reason. Because a young teenage kid standing up to their father wailing on their mother can't be brave. A black person sitting at the front of the bus (maybe not now, but in recent history) can't be brave. A woman who was raped stands up to her attackers despite being labeled a whore/"she was asking for it" can't be brave. 

No, only military personnel can be considered brave because bravery and courage apparently don't exist outside of war. Don't get me wrong, a lot of soldiers have to be brave and courageous, but I know a great many who signed up for the check and had not a single ounce of bravery or courage. The fact of the matter is that there is bravery and courage everywhere, and coming out as trans in a world where that sort of .... is treated as poorly as it is is in fact courageous.

I've discovered though that the mind of a biggot isn't exactly rational. I see it on my facebook all the time and it sickens me that people I'm that closely related to can feel the way they do with no qualms. A lot of my family hates me and they don't even know it.


----------



## tacotiklah

Yeah, I'm just like, "Okay, but what about people like Kristen Beck then? She was part of the legendary Seal team 6, and they're famous for accomplishing sh*tfest missions that nobody else can do. Can she be both trans and brave too?"


----------



## flint757

Eliguy666 said:


> I appreciate the sacrifices that American troops make, but calling them all brave without qualification is a really dangerous thing to do. We've had serious issues with sexual assault, racial-violence (specifically during Middle-East occupation at moment), and financial corruption in the higher ranks.



I've never understood it as well. Not only do a lot of people join for benefits, but it isn't as dangerous as it used to be and the lions share of people never even see combat to begin with. Most of the crap I hear when that gets brought up is 'they're brave because it's possible'. The other part I hate is the air of authority it automatically gives you to a lot of people. It's really obnoxious. If I signed up for the military tomorrow all of a sudden my thoughts and opinions on everything would be instantly more valid to the 'patriots' of this country. Honestly, the majority of people I know who have served as family, friends, acquaintances were all a bit violent by nature before and after. I hear 'He should get the .... beat out of him for X' a lot from current and former military folk. I also hate the notion that EVERY soldier is somehow fighting for my freedom. No, they aren't. The mechanic, cook, engineer, 'professional bunk cleaners', etc. definitely didn't. While it's a beautiful notion to serve your country, when politicians and businesses decide what battles we should be fighting it becomes a whole lot less poetic.

/rant

Now, I'll proudly support the troops themselves and do believe they deserve to be treated with respect and have earned their benefits when they get home no matter their job while serving, but that pedestal people put them on is just gross. It clouds everyone's judgement to an unhealthy degree. War, especially manufactured war, is not something to be proud of nor something to feel patriotic about. I've seen it 50/50 where people come back and either go the 'patriot' route or realize that it wasn't as courageous or patriotic as they might have originally thought. The latter tend to hate the 'patriot' folks since they encourage politicians to put more civilians and soldiers in harms way.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

American who helped craft Uganda&#8217;s &#8216;Kill the Gays&#8217; bill to be tried for crimes against humanity


----------



## Eliguy666

Genocide: Okay if Americans do it for some reason.


----------



## asher

I'm not actually sure what you mean there Eli?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Eliguy666 said:


> Genocide: Okay if Americans do it for some reason.



Welp...


----------



## tacotiklah

^^^Good. Apologies for falling into Godwin's Law here, but that man really would've worked towards hitler-like extermination of gay people in other countries had he not been stopped. I also blame him and people like him for his influence on anti-LGBT policies in Russia.

The fact that he remains completely unrepentant of his atrocities should be proof enough that if he were to be released, he'd just try to kill more homosexual people.


----------



## Eliguy666

I'm saying that for some reason people who use imperial means to further their violent campaigns, as Lively did, aren't being dealt with in the same way that people in other nations have. If they were, Lively would have been tried years ago. Lively still has supporters in the U.S., even if they aren't in vast number.


----------



## Eliguy666

The fact of the matter is that African homophobia is a result of American and British influence. Pepe Julian Onziema has a very good bit on this in Last Week Tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2W41pvvZs0&ab_channel=LastWeekTonight


----------



## asher

Eliguy666 said:


> I'm saying that for some reason people who use imperial means to further their violent campaigns, as Lively did, aren't being dealt with in the same way that people in other nations have. If they were, Lively would have been tried years ago. Lively still has supporters in the U.S., even if they aren't in vast number.



Can you give me some examples of people who HAVE been dealt with like you're talking about?


----------



## Eliguy666

U.N. intervention, while insufficiently prepared, combatted the Rwandan Genocide immediately. U.S. involvement in Middle-Eastern affairs has been, if anything, recklessly immediate. Prosecution of those involved in the 1984 killings of Sikh people in India began within a month. Genocide in Darfur was prosecuted within the year.

While past government campaigns of violence have gone uncombatted longer, the amount of time that it took for Lively to be even charged is absurd, particularly when his involvement in international genocide has always been evident, and even moreso considering that the Ugandan legislature has received attention in the U.S. from the beginning.


----------



## asher

Eliguy666 said:


> U.N. intervention, while insufficiently prepared, combatted the Rwandan Genocide immediately. U.S. involvement in Middle-Eastern affairs has been, if anything, recklessly immediate. Prosecution of those involved in the 1984 killings of Sikh people in India began within a month. Genocide in Darfur was prosecuted within the year.
> 
> While past government campaigns of violence have gone uncombatted longer, the amount of time that it took for Lively to be even charged is absurd, particularly when his involvement in international genocide has always been evident, and even moreso considering that the Ugandan legislature has received attention in the U.S. from the beginning.



In every instance, you're talking about something much more institutionalized and larger than one American helping a government pass a law it was going to pass anyway. One of them was a straight up civil war terror campaign. One of them was _one of the greatest foreign policy blunders the US has ever made and not in any remote way a good example_.

It's impossible to say this isn't awful - it is, and I'd never even try to say otherwise. But it's a different type of case.


----------



## Eliguy666

If you believe Uganda was going to pass that law without Lively's campaign, then you're opposed to literally every expert on the case, particularly Ugandan activists.


----------



## Eliguy666

Here's Onziema expressing that in the plainest way. https://youtu.be/G2W41pvvZs0?t=850


----------



## asher

Eliguy666 said:


> If you believe Uganda was going to pass that law without Lively's campaign, then you're opposed to literally every expert on the case, particularly Ugandan activists.



Just uninformed, apparently!


----------



## Eliguy666

I am sorry to be harsher on this than I need be, but it's important to recognize that these nations aren't uncivilized or hopeless; their current political struggles are symptomatic of their history, one which has been greatly affected by western imperialism.


----------



## ferret

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/w...-effectively-legalizes-same-sex-marriage.html

News from outside the US.


----------



## tacotiklah

ferret said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/w...-effectively-legalizes-same-sex-marriage.html
> 
> News from outside the US.



Awesome news! 
Still awaiting SCOTUS' decision here any day now.


----------



## tacotiklah

Confession/rant time...

I don't know what it is, but even since the whole Caitlyn Jenner thing, it's like EVERYBODY is dogpiling on trans people. I'm even seeing gays and lesbians jump into the fray to attack trans people. Why all the hate? Literally wtf did Caitlyn do that was so awful that they have to wish nothing but hate on her? Like, I get that they're not fans of the Kardashian family, and honestly, I'm not either. But I know first-hand what it's like to have everybody jump all over your case just for wanting to live life as your true self. 

"Well I'm still gonna call him Bruce." Well fine, I'm still gonna call people that say .... like that "assbutt dickfaces". How about that? 
/rant


----------



## UnderTheSign

A lot of people in the gay community can be extremly prejudiced, ignorant and harsh. My trans friend experienced the same thing. I've seen bisexuals get a lot of hate too and not to mention women who call out gay men touching them and saying "it's ok because I'm gay".


----------



## tacotiklah

And gay marriage is now legal in all 50 states!
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/06/scotus-marriage-ruling/


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Better late than never! This makes me very happy. As someone who's had the benefit longer than some, I'm glad other people can now have what I had.


----------



## michblanch

I am hoping that couples can now cover one another on employer health insurance and make decisions regarding each other. 
This is great for gay couples who retire or have benefits that aren't paid out due to not being the spouse. 

The problem in the past is that because gay marriage wasn't legal. Couples couldn't make medical decisions for one another when something catastrophic happened. 
It generally fell back on the families to make the decision rather than the spouse.


----------



## asher

That is indeed a consequence of them now being able to be legally married. One of the most important ones, in fact.


----------



## RustInPeace

Good job USA! Sincerely, Canada.


----------



## Alice AKW




----------



## tacotiklah

It's moments like this that I am truly so goddamned proud of my country. *wipes away a tear*


----------



## VigilSerus

I'm happy to know that whatever state I may reside, I can marry whoever I wish. <3


----------



## Explorer

I started a topic in Politics and Current Events about this, but I have to admit, I've been getting more and more stressed all month, checking CNN first thing to see if the SCOTUS had ruled on the marriage rights case(s), and worrying that they would rule against it. 

I'm so glad this aspect of it has been nailed down. 

I find it hilarious that Justice Alito is concerned that, although one can whisper one's beliefs in private, one runs the risk of being labeled a bigot for making bigoted statements in public. 

Duh!

One always has the right to speak one's mind in the US (not to incite, but to speak one's mind). One doesn't have the right to be protected from *others* exercising their free speech about your bigoted speech. 

Okay, gonna cut it short, but was very happy and relieved at the news. 

Oh, and happy about Lively's victims getting their day in court! Incitement of violence, a non-protected form of speech, being prosecuted, while idiots worry about free speech rights more than the rights of murder victims. I'm hopeful that Lively will have consequences from his incitement.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Explorer said:


> I started a topic in Politics and Current Events about this, but I have to admit, I've been getting more and more stressed all month, checking CNN first thing to see if the SCOTUS had ruled on the marriage rights case(s), and worrying that they would rule against it.
> 
> I'm so glad this aspect of it has been nailed down.
> 
> I find it hilarious that Justice Alito is concerned that, although one can whisper one's beliefs in private, one runs the risk of being labeled a bigot for making bigoted statements in public.
> 
> Duh!
> 
> One always has the right to speak one's mind in the US (not to incite, but to speak one's mind). One doesn't have the right to be protected from *others* exercising their free speech about your bigoted speech.
> 
> Okay, gonna cut it short, but was very happy and relieved at the news.
> 
> Oh, and happy about Lively's victims getting their day in court! Incitement of violence, a non-protected form of speech, being prosecuted, while idiots worry about free speech rights more than the rights of murder victims. I'm hopeful that Lively will have consequences from his incitement.



Free speech just means you can say it without law man slapping some irons on you. Has nothing to do with how others take it and react, provided the reaction is also within the law. It always cracks me up when people feel their free speech is violated when people just aren't taking their ..... Anywho, a tad off topic.

On topic, I actually got married in mass when it was still illegal in RI. RI recognized out of state same sex marriage though. Just a weird little loophole we exploited. Especially interesting as Mass is literally in my back yard.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Coheed and Cambria Sing Justice Scalia&#39;s Dissenting Opini...


----------



## metaldoggie

I figured this would be better here than in its own post.

My 13yo son is going through an emotional time, he's been bullied the last year at school, and it really affected his grades. Obviously his hormones are all over the place right now.

So we set him up with a therapist to try and work through everything. Then he told his mum that he was confused about his sexuality the other day.

We have kind of had an inkling about that for a few years but we weren't sure. I am sure he hasn't figured it out himself yet at this point.

He isn't concerned with us because he knows our feelings already, but he is worried about his brothers (our 21yo has no issue, but we aren't sure if our 9yo will really understand....I think he'll be fine though).

My personal fear is how he'll react if he comes across any further bullying, specifically about this or worse, if his grandfather will react negatively - I can't see him being nasty about it, I know he won't like it, but he isn't very tactful and it will take him some time to get used to it.

I guess what I am having a hard time with is knowing that he wont need to worry about how we will react if he comes out, and not being able to avoid him going through a really difficult emotional time to figure it out anyway.

Can anyone share any advice of what they went through or how to help him deal with figuring it out?


----------



## tacotiklah

Best thing to do is to love and support him no matter what. Make sure that he knows and understands this as well. Knowing that you have the love and support of your parents can literally mean the difference between life and death for LGBT kids. 

Here are some statistics on LGBT (and even questioning) kids:
Growing Up LGBT in America: View Statistics | Human Rights Campaign

My dad and his now ex-wife were fundamentalist-type christians, so obviously I wasn't accepted or tolerated. I was told that I was demonically possessed by "sex demons" and other weird crap, so I couldn't be my authentic self. I ended up attempting suicide a couple of times, though thankfully I failed at both attempts. This is why I say it's the difference between life and death. When you're a kid that feels like the entire world and even your own family hates you for something you don't even fully understand, ending it all seems like a better idea all the time.

Best way to fight those thoughts is to show your kids how much you love them, regardless of who they love. While they're questioning, don't let negative haters be around them. It's kind of a tough period in their life and the less negativity they're around, the better.


----------



## metaldoggie

Thanks for that, and I'm sorry you had to experience what you did.
Showing him we are accepting and loving unconditionally is there without question.

I just wish I could do more to make it a non-issue, not to downplay the importance of finding yourself, but not to let it be something that eats you up with confusion. 

I know I can't completely remove him from experiencing bigotry....to do so would be to go live on another planet essentially.


----------



## tacotiklah

Oh he'll still be around bigotry, but that can be a teachable moment for him as well. 
Also, here's some good advice from planned parenthood about kids that are questioning:
Parenting LGBT and Questioning Kids

"One in four families has someone that is lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender in it."
That's something I did not know. Pretty crazy to think that it's that common.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## vilk

I keep trying to read this stuff and it makes me feel like such an idiot. I even read a special article to help people who can't figure it out but it was written by an idiot I'm pretty sure. Help me complete this chart I think this will clear it up for me.

Transgender woman-
1. Born with p3nis: y/n
2. Outward appearance of woman: y/n
3. Proper noun is "her": y/n
4. Presently has p3nis: y/n 
--------------------------------------------

Transsexual woman-
1. Born with p3nis: y/n
2. Outward appearance of woman: y/n
3. Proper noun is "her": y/n
4. Presently has p3nis: y/n (this is the one where the pen1s changes I'm pretty sure. Right?)
---------------------------------------

Transgender man-
1. Born with p3nis: y/n
2. Outward appearance of woman: y/n
3. Proper noun is "her": y/n
4. Presently has p3nis: y/n
----------------------------------------

Transsexual man-
1. Born with p3nis: y/n
2. Outward appearance of woman: y/n
3. Proper noun is "her": y/n
4. Presently has p3nis: y/n


Usually I don't feel stupid for not understanding something but I do feel stupid for not understanding this.


----------



## sevenstringj

vilk said:


> I keep trying to read this stuff and it makes me feel like such an idiot. I even read a special article to help people who can't figure it out but it was written by an idiot I'm pretty sure. Help me complete this chart I think this will clear it up for me.
> 
> Transgender woman-
> 1. Born with p3nis: y
> 2. Outward appearance of woman: y
> 3. Proper noun is "her": y
> 4. Presently has p3nis: y
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Transsexual woman-
> 1. Born with p3nis: y
> 2. Outward appearance of woman: y
> 3. Proper noun is "her": y
> 4. Presently has p3nis: n
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> Transgender man-
> 1. Born with p3nis: n
> 2. Outward appearance of woman: n
> 3. Proper noun is "her": n
> 4. Presently has p3nis: n
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> Transsexual man-
> 1. Born with p3nis: n
> 2. Outward appearance of woman: n
> 3. Proper noun is "her": n
> 4. Presently has p3nis: y
> 
> 
> Usually I don't feel stupid for not understanding something but I do feel stupid for not understanding this.



I think.



It's confusing because the category changes but the form of the questions don't. You normally wouldn't ask "does a transgender male have the outward appearance of a female?"


----------



## Eliguy666

Seven, I feel like it's necessary to be blunt considering the last few posts.

Transgender people aren't confusing. You just aren't willing to learn because of your irrational views.

Vilk, this chart is significantly more accurate than Seven's.

People of all sorts-
1. Born with p3nis: Not your business.
2. Outward appearance of woman: Objective.
3. Proper noun is "her": Ask individually.
4. Presently has p3nis: Not your business


----------



## flint757

I don't think Vilk meant he intends on literally asking and clarifying with trans people those questions. 

I'm nearly 100% sure he was asking what the clinical and general correct answers associated with transgender men/women and transsexual men/women actual is. Also, if I'm going to be blunt, if I were to start dating someone I would absolutely want to know the answer to these questions and in such a scenario it'd either be both of our business or we'd be walking away from the situation. Preferably they wouldn't be hiding the fact that they are transgender or transsexual in the first place in such a scenario. We've all got dating preferences and that just may not be their type as far as dating goes. 

I agree it isn't any random persons right on the street to know these answers about an individual, but I'd think that we'd want people to fully understand the dynamics of the trans community which is all that Vilk was looking for and in a more intimate setting it is IMO pertinent information.


----------



## Eliguy666

Yeah, but it's not like you're going to end up in bed with a trans person without knowing that stuff. That trope's Hollywood fiction, The Birth of a Nation style.

Edit: Ninja'd by Max, post is in reply to Flint.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

By its definition and the bigotry of the general population, it is a little confusing. "Trans" being short for "transition" implies there was something before to transition from. Since what was "there before" is not very fun to talk about and largely irrelevant (can't speak for all, but I have a friend that refuses to really acknowledge it; they were always female.) It becomes a little confusing to some. 

If I accidentally call someone the wrong thing, I apologize and use the proper words from then on. I feel it really is that simple.

Perhaps not the most coherent post, but I'm sleepy so apologies if I said something out of line. A bit of a touchy subject. 

Ps: I think it's a little ....ed that it's come to name calling.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

*MOD EDIT: Sorry guys, I take full responsibility. Should have gone with my gut and nipped it in the bud.*


----------



## flint757

Eliguy666 said:


> Yeah, but it's not like you're going to end up in bed with a trans person without knowing that stuff. That trope's Hollywood fiction, The Birth of a Nation style.
> 
> Edit: Ninja'd by Max, post is in reply to Flint.



I fully agree (genuinely), but it isn't out of the realm of possibility either. Being straight, trans, gay or anything else affords no indicator of level of honesty or likelihood of deceptive behavior. I'm not implying it happens a lot, or even at all, but I'm sure there's someone out there who is both insecure and okay with being dishonest enough to not share that information.
 
As a parallel it's like when religious folk try to claim that someone must be a good person because they're X religion which totally ignores that we are all individuals and we all fall at different points along the spectrum of behavior.


----------



## asher

MaxOfMetal said:


> *MOD EDIT: Sorry guys, I take full responsibility. Should have gone with my gut and nipped it in the bud.*



No worries, it seemed for the first few that he was - maybe - going to be actually capable of discussing in good faith.


----------



## tacotiklah

I appreciate it, Max. Thanks for looking out! 
Like I told everyone when I made this thread, the mods can and will lay down the banhammer on people that start veering into prejudiced speech. That much was impressed upon me when I asked if it was cool to start this thread. If you're not sure, just ask them before you post it.


I also get that the subject of being transgender can be very confusing for people and it's no secret that even in the LGBT community, transgender people get a fair bit of prejudice actions and speech. To help clarify what it is, the great John Oliver did a FANTASTIC job when he made this episode:



If you seek to be a good trans ally, listen to and heed his words. He's an example of a great trans ally.


----------



## Necris

Eliguy666 said:


> Seven, I feel like it's necessary to be blunt considering the last few posts.
> 
> Transgender people aren't confusing. You just aren't willing to learn because of your irrational views.
> 
> Vilk, this chart is significantly more accurate than Seven's.
> 
> People of all sorts-
> 1. Born with p3nis: Not your business.
> 2. Outward appearance of woman: *Subjective*.
> 3. Proper noun is "her": Ask individually.
> 4. Presently has p3nis: Not your business



Agreed on the rest, but I felt a need to fix that.


----------



## Eliguy666

Necris said:


> Agreed on the rest, but I felt a need to fix that.



God damn it, I even have effect/affect down, but that will always trip me up.


----------



## flint757

I thought you meant objective as in like that is their goal.


----------



## Eliguy666

Nah, but on that topic it's fair to say that a lot of guys could do well to be a bit more feminine (machismo is gross to me, even as a person with a slight preference for men).


----------



## flint757

I can definitely agree with that. Nothing frustrates me more than both mom's and dad's always trying to steer their children into some specific gender role. The idea of my little cousin ever doing something considered feminine like dancing or playing/watching things considered appropriate only for girls seriously stresses his parents out. It's so annoying I just want to shake them sometimes. It's like they're so concerned that their son will turn out gay they are trying to prevent it at all cost. 

All I think to myself is:

1) Who gives a .... if he ends up being gay
2) Doing activities deemed for the opposite gender, especially when you're only 5, does not mean you're gay nor does it even correlate that cooking, dancing, playing with dolls, or whatever will turn your child into a homosexual.
3) Some of the best chefs, dancers, gymnasts, etc. in the world are in fact men.

The ignorance blows my ....ing mind, but I suppose I can't expect much from people who are minimally educated, religious, conservatives born and raised in Texas.

It mostly frustrates me because he'll never get the proper exposure to culture under their wing...


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Holy ...., my friend's brother used to force his kid away from gay/feminine activities. I would always get mad. It's like, if he's gay he's gay. No amount of weight lifting, football, and truck driving will change that. 

Gender roles and trying to shape someone's sexuality has always been a huge issue with me. I also personally dislike the whole macho thing. I don't need a guy to be completely effeminate, but it's nice when masculinity is not a prominent thought, where they don't feel that every/anything is a threat to their manhood.

I had a friend once who couldn't watch the movie "The Watchmen" without physically and audibly being threatened by the blue peen.


----------



## UnderTheSign

Unfortunately I doubt machismo will leave male culture anytime soon though. I mean what'll happen to the world if you can't make men feel inadequate about their abs or wiener?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Most of the openly gay men I know and work with are more macho and masculine than I am. They're just as tough, beer drinking, burping, truck driving, deer hunting, and football watching as the rest of us. I don't think there is anything inherently feminine to being gay, especially knowing those guys. 

I think the image of super femininity in gay men is more of a stereotype played up by the media (the whacky funny gay guy trope). I'm not saying they don't exist, I've been in the restaurant business before. 

That's just been my experience.


----------



## kmanick

Bingo, I worked in the real estate industry in Boston for about 15 years and the realtors are predominantly gay in that area. I worked with several for years without having any type of clue that they were gay.
I used to go to the gym and lift with several of them regularly.
had no f'n clue 
Sure there are plenty of "Queens" out there, no doubt about that (go to Province town on any Saturday in the summer, they are always out and about), but in my experience they are very much the minority.
I think that whole "image" is just trumped up by Hollywood.
I also think those numbers from that planned parenthood site are extremely inflated. I've read in too many resources that the gay population in the US is about 3-5% . That doesn't work out to one in every four families.

Metaldoggie it sounds like you are doing everything right that you can. I would add one thing, get him into a self defense program so he can handle any douchebags out there if he needs to.
One of my daughters childhood friends (she is 13 now has known him since they were 3) had always been drawn to playing with dolls and getting dressed up in princess outfits when they used to play a few years back. The parents were always concerned that he may turn out to be gay , but not because they were anti gay, they didn't want him to have to deal with prejudices etc. So they did the right thing and showed him nothing but love and let him do his own thing. Now he is going into 8th grade and he is doing all sorts of "manly" things, High honor roll student etc., but he still has a very effeminate demeanor about him. He is a green belt now in Karate (has not had to deal with any idiots yet, thankfully) but he is very self confident and knows he is loved. He is quite the character as well.
His parents are 2 of the most loving people you could ever hope to meet.
And they are both devout Christians...............not all Christians are the stereo types a lot of you guys on this forum love to bash. There are plenty of them out there that are living in 2015, not 1960.




MaxOfMetal said:


> Most of the openly gay men I know and work with are more macho and masculine than I am. They're just as tough, beer drinking, burping, truck driving, deer hunting, and football watching as the rest of us. I don't think there is anything inherently feminine to being gay, especially knowing those guys.
> 
> I think the image of super femininity in gay men is more of a stereotype played up by the media (the whacky funny gay guy trope). I'm not saying they don't exist, I've been in the restaurant business before.
> 
> That's just been my experience.


----------



## vilk

Eliguy666 said:


> Seven, I feel like it's necessary to be blunt considering the last few posts.
> 
> Transgender people aren't confusing. You just aren't willing to learn because of your irrational views.
> 
> Vilk, this chart is significantly more accurate than Seven's.
> 
> People of all sorts-
> 1. Born with p3nis: Not your business.
> 2. Outward appearance of woman: Objective.
> 3. Proper noun is "her": Ask individually.
> 4. Presently has p3nis: Not your business



Wait, so everyone is saying this is right? (Aside from the obvious word usage error)



If all of that stuff is none of my business, then how can I use the terms transgender/sexual man/woman correctly? I thought it was important to use these words correctly because they have inherent meaning. What's the point of making and using these words correctly if I'm not allowed to know what they mean? If genitals don't count, and apparently what a man or woman looks like is subjective, and pronouns are determined on an individual basis... then... why not just call the whole lot the same word?

And guys believe me when I say I'm not trying to stir the pot I'm trying to educate myself.


----------



## UnderTheSign

I'd say that 1 and 4 are indeed not your business unless you are getting physically involved with the person and at that point it's up to them when they tell you. Some will disclose right away, some won't, depending on previous experience and how comfortable they are. 

2 and 4... Well, generally speaking a trans woman will appear as a woman. Not necessarily conforming to (western) beauty standards for cis people though. Pronouns can be tricky. Most trans people I've met preferred gendered pronouns but there's people who prefer neutral pronouns as well. I either ask or use what I find suitable at that moment and change if I get corrected. 

Now mind you I'm not trans myself, just speaking from experience with a close trans male friend and the other non binary people I've met. Jess or someone else here might have a better answer.


----------



## vilk

Well 1 and 4 could very much determine whether not I'd even attempt to get physically involved. Wait, is that bad or something? I mean like, ok hypothetical situation:
Beautiful person whose outward appearance is reminiscent with what I identify as an attractive woman is at the bar. I lean to my friend and say "look at that hottie!" and he says "Dude, she's a trans-_____ ____". The presence or lack of certain genitalia (and whether or not they were born that way) might at this point come into play in regards to whether or not I go try to hit on this person. 

Tell me if I'm too explicit and I'll try to fix this but for example, and I guess this is personal, but I'm bi-sexual, and if I saw a hot woman-looking person at the bar, I'd approach her if she had a male genitals. However, I'm kinda freaked out by mutilated genitals and artificially created orifices (at least the one's I've been exposed to), so if she had her member removed I might not want to buy her a drink.


----------



## tacotiklah

As a transsexual woman, I feel I should do some educating in here. 
I am out and open about who I am, so there is no mistaking it at all. Not every trans woman is though. I do advocate that 1-2 dates in, full disclosure is needed. In fact, many trans women are scared sh*tless of hiding it nowadays because not stating it up front has gotten plenty of them beaten senseless, or even killed. It's kind of a life or death thing for us to give full disclosure now. 

Also, sorry to be harsh but whether or not they have any medical procedures done is absolutely none of your concern. That's true of anything else in their medical history and people usually seem to respect that up until it comes to being trans. Then suddenly everyone wants to be the most inquisitive, intrusive ass known to man. If she tells you she's a woman, then she's a woman and leave it at that. A transwoman knows her identity better than anyone else, namely because of the huge amount of self discovery and thought that has gone into it long before you ever met up with her.

Also keep in mind that not all trans people need to have surgical procedures or other forms of transitioning done to feel right in their own skin. Again, that decision is solely up to them and again, none of your damn business.

If you're not sure what pronouns to use, ask them politely. Then be sure to remember and use those pronouns regarding them. It's not that hard really. The only time it gets difficult is when you try to shove your ideals of gender and gender roles into the mix instead of just accepting it as it is. It's wasted time, effort, and energy to go out of your way to belittle a trans person just because you think they should be, look, or act a certain way. Honestly that's true of any person. But when you talk down to us or call us what you think we should be called, it doesn't make us want to change who we are. It literally just makes us horrifically depressed and self-loathing. It makes us feel alone in the world because we can see who we are, but no one else can. This is why there's a 41% suicide attempt rate among transgender individuals verses the 2% rate among the general population. That number has gone even higher in other countries, like Ireland's >80% suicide rate among trans people. 

What you think is innocent can actually be blood on your hands. Treat us with respect and let us live our lives in peace. That's all that is literally asked of anyone.


----------



## Alice AKW

As one of the other resident trans-women of SSO. I can agree with Jess (tacotiklah)'s points above.


----------



## vilk

OK, so, for anyone who identifies themselves as non-trans, or even if they don't because as stated the vast majority of the population is not trans, people know what kind of genitals we have. Everyone, trans and non trans alike, know what my genitals are simply by that I have stated I'm not trans. 

However, this is not true for trans people. As I have learned in this thread. It is inappropriate to ask them what kind of genitals they have, and also we cannot know what kind of genitals they have based on pronoun use or use of the definitive(or not so much) words trans-gender/sexual woman/man. 

That's not not fair. Yeah, I get that trans people have it rough--that was never being called into question. But equality isn't zero-sum, and it seems like there's a double-standard. And don't try to twist that and say I'm talking badly about trans people--I'm simply stating that the _purported_ standard isn't promoting a level playing field. I'm not sure I agree with it. I understand the reasoning behind it I guess, because so many people act badly towards trans people that they are sensitive about their genitals... but so are other people, by the way, even one's who weren't born in the wrong sex. Most everyone's genitals are known to everyone else, I'm not sure how I feel about trans people only getting a special exemption.


----------



## UnderTheSign

Are you saying that trans people keeping their private parts private is some sort of trans privilege? 

I don't think we should be that obsessed with genitals in general. Girls don't aks about the size of my dick when they meet me, they don't ask me wether I'm cut or uncut, whatever. Should people with micro..... or the exact opposit disclose this early on?


----------



## vilk

Yes, I guess that's what I'm saying. And while you may personally feel that we shouldn't be obsessed with genitals, the fact of the matter is many people are. I don't judge a person first and foremost on their genitals, but some people do--And that's their prerogative! Also, I think genital size is a separate issue


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Private becomes non-private at some point in a relationship though. If it turns out you're not sexually attracted to someone's business, you shouldn't be expected to go any further. My wife for instance who is full on lesbian, I wouldn't expect to go further with anyone with a ......

I on the other hand identified as bi. Probably more pan than anything though, as I've discovered in recent years. I generally don't care what someone has going on. Man, woman, and anywhere in between is dandy with me.


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

So Vilk, basically what you're saying is "I can assume to know what other people have in their pants, but since you're trans, now I can't, and that annoys me"

Like seriously who the .... gives a ....? Why should ANYBODY care who's got what in their pants?!?!?

Vilk, what you're talking about is basically society has made connections - if you look this way, you must have junk like this in your pants. But the idea of not being able to just assume something so private about someone suddenly makes you uncomfortable, and people treat it like it's this huge ....ing deal. Like so what, I'm a woman, and I have a dick - I'd never get reassignment surgery, myself, because it's not a source of dysphoria for me like it is for some trans women, and because of various other reasons that'd make it a self-defeating choice.

Look, I get that there are some people out there that are put off by certain sets of genitalia - but that doesn't mean you're automatically entitled to know what people have in their pants, just so you can make judgement ahead of time. If you are, at some point in your life, dating a trans person, then the conversation should come up at some point, before getting intimate. But if I pass you on the street, you shouldn't be wondering what I have in my pants.


----------



## vilk

Yes, that is basically what I'm saying. I don't think it's that surprising--it's clearly a sentiment shared by many. 

Well if I just saw you walking down the street I wouldn't know that you are trans. I would imagine you were just a biological woman, and I'd assume you have female genitals. Just like I do with a lot of people that I see. All I'm saying is I'd like to imagine you naked the right way, and not pay you the disservice of assuming you have genitals that you might not.


----------



## Explorer

metaldoggie said:


> My 13yo son is going through an emotional time, he's been bullied the last year at school, and it really affected his grades.
> 
> My personal fear is how he'll react if he comes across any further bullying, specifically about this....
> 
> Can anyone share any advice of what they went through or how to help him deal with figuring it out?



I'm a little late to the party with regard to your questions, but I do have one big point to comment on.

I was bullied, and finally broke down and told my mother I didn't want to go back to school. She found out about everything I had been going through... and then all hell broke loose at the school when she went in to rip them a new one. 

When my own son was in elementary school, he had won a prize in class, and then two kids had used force to take it from him after school. 

In the meeting I insisted on the next day at the school, the teachers and administrators tried to tell me that my son would have to understand that the assailants had some difficult things in their lives. I disagreed with the thought that my son would go through difficult things because the school wasn't willing to protect students against physical harm. The school was somehow able to control the other students after it became clear that they would be on the hook after defending *not* protecting the students. 

At this point, studies are pretty clear that bullying is harmful to the recipient, and there is no reason for a school to do nothing once they're informed of a student's well-being (physical or mental) being harmed while in their care. In fact, with the successful lawsuits over the years, a prudent administration would be unlikely to let such behavior slide. 

Just a thought on that aspect. 

----

Regarding family members being accepting or assholes, the younger sibling has no reason to think one way or another about matters except what that sibling has been taught. If it's just the way it is, then kids accept that kind of thing. 

It can definitely hurt if a relative rejects a kid who comes out. I had friends who were even tossed out of their parents' house for coming out before they were 18. Rejection by a family member will hurt, and there's nothing which can prevent that hurt. 

However, that's also an opportunity for you to step up. If someone isn't willing to treat your offspring with love and respect, it's important to not make excuses about why your family should respect that kind of animus towards your own flesh and blood. If Grandpa feels his notions are more important than family, that's his decision, but you're under no obligation to make him part of your family, or to attend any events where his bigotry is acceptable. 

That might sound harsh, the idea of rejecting a family member's beliefs in support of one's own offspring, but if you really want to avoid making things more difficult for your flesh and blood, you have no reason to give credence to ideas of, "Well, my parents don't think Grandpa is wrong enough in saying I'm damaged to protect me, so I must not be worth protecting." I would never want to be that kind of parent. Would you?

I'm glad your child has such supportive parents.


----------



## Explorer

vilk said:


> All I'm saying is I'd like to imagine you naked the right way, and not pay you the disservice of assuming you have genitals that you might not.



If on were really concerned about another person's wishes and preferences... you're making an unwarranted assumption that they want you imagining them naked.

I just thought, if you're talking about being concerned about *their* feelings regarding what you imagine, that point is definitely germane. 

If you don't want your imagination to occasionally go where a friend of mine labels "The No-No Place," then visual pornography where you aren't taking a chance is probably a better bet. Real life contains risks.


----------



## vilk

I'm going to imagine the people I see naked, especially if they are even remotely attractive. And this will generally happen regardless of any conscious effort on my end or the other parties feelings. I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm sure lots of people are like that...er ... I don't consider myself some kind of a sex freak. 

So it only makes sense to imagine them the right way. If I know that someone is a trans(sexual? or does it even matter) woman, and especially if she's a hottie, when I do accidentally think about dirty stuff I want her to be waving a donger. If I don't know that she has one, it's like I'm wrong.

I guess maybe this all comes down to I want to know what's going on. This apparently includes whether or not someone has their genitals on the outside vs the inside. If I were to not know, and then find out later, I would feel foolish--for being incorrect, essentially. I imagine this to be a commonly understood feeling even outside the world of sex and body parts.

I think maybe I just like structure. I also find enjoyment in splitting up bands by their exact genres and sub/subsub genres. And it would bother me if someone called some music the wrong genre, just like it would bother me if someone called a person the wrong trans-gender/sexual man/woman.


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

That's just creepy. I'd work on, ya know, not doing that, because it's just gross behaviour. Or at the very least, keep that crap to yourself, man. Nobody wants to know that you imagine strangers naked.

Glad you have a picture on your profile, now I know who to avoid at shows in the city.


----------



## Necris

vilk said:


> I'm going to imagine the people I see naked, especially if they are even remotely attractive. And this will generally happen regardless of any conscious effort on my end or the other parties feelings. I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm sure lots of people are like that...er ... I don't consider myself some kind of a sex freak.
> 
> So it only makes sense to imagine them the right way. If I know that someone is a trans(sexual? or does it even matter) woman, and especially if she's a hottie, when I do accidentally think about dirty stuff I want her to be waving a donger. If I don't know that she has one, it's like I'm wrong.
> 
> I guess maybe this all comes down to I want to know what's going on. This apparently includes whether or not someone has their genitals on the outside vs the inside. If I were to not know, and then find out later, I would feel foolish--for being incorrect, essentially. I imagine this to be a commonly understood feeling even outside the world of sex and body parts.
> 
> I think maybe I just like structure. I also find enjoyment in splitting up bands by their exact genres and sub/subsub genres. And it would bother me if someone called some music the wrong genre, just like it would bother me if someone called a person the wrong trans-gender/sexual man/woman.



Vilk, I'll be completely honest with you, based on your description of how you view people and your willingness to justify it you're about as desirable in a social situation as a guy who can't help but lick his lips, quiver and make thrusting motions every time a vaguely attractive person passes in front of him. 
You're a complete creep with one of the strongest senses of entitlement I've ever encountered if you feel that it's acceptable to interrogate people about their genitals because *you* need *your* sex fantasies about that person to be as accurate as possible because *you* would be uncomfortable and feel foolish if they weren't. 
F_u_ck off, seriously.


----------



## vilk

Necris said:


> You're a complete creep with one of the strongest senses of entitlement I've ever encountered if you feel that it's acceptable to interrogate people about their genitals because *you* need *your* sex fantasies about that person to be as accurate as possible because *you* would be uncomfortable and feel foolish if they weren't.
> F_u_ck off, seriously.



Cool your jets. 

I didn't say it's acceptable to interrogate people. I said it would be better if we just applied meaning to the words and used them correctly. You know, like we do with everything else in this world? Then everyone would know what's going on. 


Furthermore, trying to insult me by suggesting that having sexual feelings when I see someone attractive is some kind of depravity isn't going to work. People think about sex. I think it's creepier that you don't, so na-na-na-boo-boo.  You'd think posters in the LGBT thread wouldn't be so quick to pass judgement!

and for the record, me thinking about an attractive person's body isn't necessarily always in regards to sex. It could be curiosity, or just admiration.


----------



## stevexc

The fact remains that it's nobody's responsibility to make sure you have an accurate mental image of them naked unless they intentionally choose to show you. There is no deception involved, nobody is trying to make you think they have something under their clothes that they don't (at least, in the vast majority of cases).

Really what it comes down to is no, you don't get to know whether that hottie walking down the street is hung further than you or not unless that hottie chooses to show you, and it's not reasonable to expect otherwise. 

If ever the situation arises where it IS an issue - as in, they haven't made it clear what sexual organs they have and you are about to be in some form of contact with them - it's an entirely different case. Chances are, though, the average trans-person would disclose that information to you before that situation occurs if they thought it relevant.

It's the exact same as why unless I choose to tell you, you don't get to or need to know how much I'm packing, or why you don't need to or get to know how much of that hottie walking down the street's .... are flesh, padding, or silicone unless she (or he) decides to tell you.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Eh, I've read some of your posts in the past that make it seem like your sexual drive is a little scary. Take that for what you want as I don't know you irl and some .... can't be read in text.

That said, you just have to use your imagination. The same way you don't know what someone's nipple look like, if/how much they shave, what type of labia, circumsized ding dong or not, etc etc. You have no business knowing, so your imagination fills the blanks.


----------



## Necris

vilk said:


> If I know that someone is a trans(sexual? or does it even matter) woman, and especially if she's a hottie, when I do accidentally think about dirty stuff I want her to be waving a donger. If I don't know that she has one, it's like I'm wrong.
> 
> If I were to not know, and then find out later, I would feel foolish--for being incorrect, essentially


"I need to know what genitals your because if I fantasize about you with the wrong set of genitals I'll feel foolish, it will be like I'm wrong and I don't like being wrong."

Yes, it is, at the very least, off putting that you can so easily try to frame what is obviously a purely self-serving desire to to gain intimate knowledge of another person's body as a form of altruism. Telling them that you're really being selfless and doing them a favor by prying because as a result you'll be able to fantasize with the right genitals in mind:



vilk said:


> All I'm saying is I'd like to imagine you naked the right way, and not pay you the disservice of assuming you have genitals that you might not.


 Entitled and creepy are absolutely words that describe you.

That we're in the LGBT thread has no bearing on that.


----------



## vilk

^do you need an oxygen mask way up there? Does the horse need one, too?

I get it, I get it. I used picturing someone naked as an example, but I hope you can all realize that I'm thinking about it on a principle level--not like for me to practically eye-strip trannies. There's something that most people all know about each other, and only trans people are exempt. 

I'll leave it at this: I can't rightly say because I'm not trans-sexual or trans-gender, but I'd like to think that if I were, I would find the word to describe what I am based on genitals in relation to outward appearance, and I would use that word correctly and make sure that everyone else used the correct word, and didn't refer to me by the wrong word.


----------



## Alice AKW

FWIW I'm one of the moset sexually promiscuous and curious people I know, and I can't say I've ever devoted much brain power to imagining what anyone looks like naked.


----------



## stevexc

vilk said:


> ^do you need an oxygen mask way up there? Does the horse need one, too?
> 
> I get it, I get it. I used picturing someone naked as an example, but I hope you can all realize that I'm thinking about it on a principle level--not like for me to practically eye-strip trannies. There's something that most people all know about each other, and only trans people are exempt.
> 
> I'll leave it at this: I can't rightly say because I'm not trans-sexual or trans-gender, but I'd like to think that if I were, I would find the word to describe what I am based on genitals in relation to outward appearance, and I would use that word correctly and make sure that everyone else used the correct word, and didn't refer to me by the wrong word.



I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were just using a very misguided metaphor and only want to know how to figure out which gender pronoun to refer to someone with.

If they're dressed in stereotypically feminine clothing and look generally like they're trying to look female, you're pretty safe using "she". If they're dressed in stereotypically male clothing and generally attempting to look male, you can probably go with "he". If you can't tell what they're trying to represent themselves as, politely ask if it's relevant to you. If you get it wrong, chances are if you sincerely apologize and ask what they prefer you won't have any issues. 

What's going on "under the skirt" isn't really relevant at any point, although it'll most likely correlate. Either way it's only the business of whoever's wearing the skirt and whoever they choose to tell. 

Alice, Taco, whoever else has a first person viewpoint, feel free to correct me... But I feel confident saying that if you ask and they want you to know, they'll tell you.


----------



## Alice AKW

Absolutely.

If someone asks me what bits I have, I personally have no shame in disclosing what I have because that's something I'm comfortable with, but not every trans-girl feels that way.

In any case, parading around all SHE GOTTA DEEEEEK is quite frowned upon.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Alice AKW said:


> FWIW I'm one of the moset sexually promiscuous and curious people I know, and I can't say I've ever devoted much brain power to imagining what anyone looks like naked.



Its not unheard of that somebody imagine others naked. I'm sure TV/movie personalities make it into people's fantasies on the regular. It is a little creepy, however, to oggle people and imagine them naked in public. Its just rude to oggle people in general. Trying to pretend you're doing them a favor by imagining them with the "correct" genitals is just silly, as if you cared at all what they thought, 10 to 1 they don't want you imagining them at all.


----------



## Alice AKW

Chokey Chicken said:


> Its not unheard of that somebody imagine others naked. I'm sure TV/movie personalities make it into people's fantasies on the regular. It is a little creepy, however, to oggle people and imagine them naked in public. Its just rude to oggle people in general. Trying to pretend you're doing them a favor by imagining them with the "correct" genitals is just silly, as if you cared at all what they thought, 10 to 1 they don't want you imagining them at all.



I agree. People will famtasize all they want, and I'm all for imagination.

Projecting a fantasy onto someone else without consent though... is a different issue.


----------



## Explorer

Chokey Chicken said:


> Its not unheard of that somebody imagine others naked. I'm sure TV/movie personalities make it into people's fantasies on the regular.



Is now a good time to bring up my worship closet devoted to images of Helen Mirren, whom my friend teases me as being "The Thinking Man's Tart"?

Man, those images of her twerking!

(TMI?)


----------



## tacotiklah

Holy transmisogyny batman! 

Vilk, NOBODY owes you any kind of explanation about their junk. None whatsoever. Seriously, GTFO with that creeper crap. 
I get that it's nice to have fantasies or whatever, but the moment you start forcing that crap onto people and allowing yourself to have off the wall expectations of them fitting into YOUR personal idea of what trans should be, that's when you start waltzing right into the WTF zone.

And Steve is absolutely right; if I want you to know what I have between my legs, I will up and tell you. Until then, IT'S NONE OF YOUR GODDAMN BUSINESS. I don't know how many times or how many ways I have to say it. That's true whether the person is trans, cis, or even non-binary. They don't owe you any explanations and to say otherwise makes you sound crazy at best, and like a serious pervert at worst.

My best recommendation to you Vilk, is to really sit down and have a good think about how you view other people because your perceptions of trans people are so friggin' off point.


----------



## tacotiklah

I hate leaving this thread on a negative note so for those LGBTs that are struggling out there, have some encouragement. Or "encourage mint"...


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

Then let's put in a nice little anecdote.

I played with a local band a few weeks ago, V is for Villains. I found out about them a couple months before that, and decided to learn their music on bass. I ended up learning their whole debut album, and posting covers on facebook. The band saw them, and offered to let me join them onstage for a show, so I picked one of the big local anime conventions, Anime Midwest.

And here's the thing - like I've mentioned already, I'm a trans woman. The thing is, I'm not completely out to everybody. But I used this as an opportunity to bring things out, just a little more. See, the thing with V is for Villains is that everybody in the band has a persona, and a really damn cool costume to go with it, so of course I needed one, too. And so I came up with Madam Duskheart, and went full femme. Lipstick, high-heeled boots, skirt, fake boobs, the lot.

And it went over amazing. When I explained the full situation to the band, they immediately asked which name I preferred to use, what pronouns I wanted, and the singer was even like "Oh and I use "dude" and "man" and stuff like that all the time, completely gender neutral, but if that's an issue just tell me"

And then when it came to actually being onstage, I don't think anybody even realized I wasn't a cis woman - and I was up there with two other cis women, so I'm proud of that. My friend Lauren, who was there, and who I'm okay with using my birthname, told me about something that happened during the show.

See, my involvement was never announced by the band. We kept it a complete surprise, to everybody by my friends. So needless to say there were people wondering just who the .... I was. One person asked that out loud, and Lauren, just reflexively, since she's known me more as Ben than Lily, was like "Oh that's Ben."

And the person just turned around and was like "What? No, that's a girl..."

And tbh, it was that tiny little moment that made an awesome night even better.


----------



## asher

That's amazing.


----------



## Alice AKW

Little things like that make all the difference.

It makes my day anytime I'm out and about and get referred to as "ma'am" by cashiers and the like.


----------



## tacotiklah

Zeno said:


> Then let's put in a nice little anecdote.
> 
> I played with a local band a few weeks ago, V is for Villains. I found out about them a couple months before that, and decided to learn their music on bass. I ended up learning their whole debut album, and posting covers on facebook. The band saw them, and offered to let me join them onstage for a show, so I picked one of the big local anime conventions, Anime Midwest.
> 
> And here's the thing - like I've mentioned already, I'm a trans woman. The thing is, I'm not completely out to everybody. But I used this as an opportunity to bring things out, just a little more. See, the thing with V is for Villains is that everybody in the band has a persona, and a really damn cool costume to go with it, so of course I needed one, too. And so I came up with Madam Duskheart, and went full femme. Lipstick, high-heeled boots, skirt, fake boobs, the lot.
> 
> And it went over amazing. When I explained the full situation to the band, they immediately asked which name I preferred to use, what pronouns I wanted, and the singer was even like "Oh and I use "dude" and "man" and stuff like that all the time, completely gender neutral, but if that's an issue just tell me"
> 
> And then when it came to actually being onstage, I don't think anybody even realized I wasn't a cis woman - and I was up there with two other cis women, so I'm proud of that. My friend Lauren, who was there, and who I'm okay with using my birthname, told me about something that happened during the show.
> 
> See, my involvement was never announced by the band. We kept it a complete surprise, to everybody by my friends. So needless to say there were people wondering just who the .... I was. One person asked that out loud, and Lauren, just reflexively, since she's known me more as Ben than Lily, was like "Oh that's Ben."
> 
> And the person just turned around and was like "What? No, that's a girl..."
> 
> And tbh, it was that tiny little moment that made an awesome night even better.




Oh wow, I didn't know you were trans as well. Explains why you loved my "Boobs bring the tone" joke I made to Fred Brum way back in the past. xD
Good on you for being who you are and not letting anyone bring you down. I just ordered some awesome black lip color from the Jeffrey Star cosmetics line and I plan to work a more goth look into my style. I'd love to do kind of what you're doing for my blackened death metal project ShadoWraith while using the stage moniker "Countess Bathory".


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

Alice AKW said:


> It makes my day anytime I'm out and about and get referred to as "ma'am" by cashiers and the like.



It's rather funny - I actually get that quite a lot when I go out in just shorts and a T-shirt, no effort to pass as feminine made on my part. They usually quickly correct themselves, though I've noticed that happening less and less lately. I figure I have the distinct advantage of being very non-masculine at all.

Although, when I do make that effort, it definitely works out.


----------



## Alice AKW

I'll say. You look fantastic, girl. <3


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

I looked fab as .... that night, and I am damn proud of that costume. Just gotta reshape the mask, apparently it was made by the singer's mom, and she doesn't actually form it to a face mold, she just pinches the bridge of the nose...

Funny story - after the set, when we're out by the merch table, I look down and my right boob is just - gone. I panicked, thought it fell out backstage or onstage or something.

Turns out it just shifted a little in my bra, to be over my sternum. GOTTA FIGURE OUT A WAY TO SECURE THOSE A LITTLE


----------



## Alice AKW

CALM YO .... WOMAN


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

Honestly tho, after an hour of jumping around as much as I did (and let me tell you, I felt it for the next 3 days) I'm surprised all that happened was that one sock fell down a little, and one boob got slightly dislocated.

BUT I MEAN COME ON, REAL BOOBS WOULDN'T DO THAT


----------



## tacotiklah

Brokeboob Mountains...


----------



## Curt

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Coheed and Cambria Sing Justice Scalia's Dissenting Opini...


Who else but coheed? 



Zeno said:


> That's just creepy. I'd work on, ya know, not doing that, because it's just gross behaviour. Or at the very least, keep that crap to yourself, man. Nobody wants to know that you imagine strangers naked.
> 
> Glad you have a picture on your profile, now I know who to avoid at shows in the city.



Bingo



tacotiklah said:


> Brokeboob Mountains...


Dammit Jess. 

Also I *reeeeaalllyyy* need to get on having my username changed here.  Kind of sucks logging in every day and seeing that. But laziness has trumped dysphoria lately it seems. Oh wells. 


Since I haven't announced it here since I last came out as bisexual, I have also come out as transgender as of April of last year. So I figured it was time to be out here as well. 

Also: Jess, your avatar nearly caused some coffee-keyboard-cataclysm, thanks.


----------



## tacotiklah

Curt said:


> Who else but coheed?
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo
> 
> 
> Dammit Jess.
> 
> Also I *reeeeaalllyyy* need to get on having my username changed here.  Kind of sucks logging in every day and seeing that. But laziness has trumped dysphoria lately it seems. Oh wells.
> 
> 
> Since I haven't announced it here since I last came out as bisexual, I have also come out as transgender as of April of last year. So I figured it was time to be out here as well.
> 
> Also: Jess, your avatar nearly caused some coffee-keyboard-cataclysm, thanks.




Welcome to the harem of gorgeous women that dudes wish they could have. My application there is still pending. Lucky bitch. 

And yeah, I too face a weird battle between laziness and dysphoria. Laziness and apathy usually win on most days.

I just love that avatar. A community that can't poke fun at itself isn't a good one. Coincidentally enough, I was reading through my Sociology textbook and it was covering deviance and why some sociologists claim that it is vital to the health of society as a whole. Glad that I can do my part for the community.


----------



## Sumsar

The American ambassador Rufus Gifford (right) with his husband (left) at the Copenhagen gay pride parade.

It is not every day you see that version of Stars stribes.

It is weird, as typically we tend to think of you americans as "not to eager to accept the LGBT-community", yet your ambassador here is a lot more open about it than the typical danish gays I know


----------



## naw38

What's really weird is that nowadays, America is seen as far more progressive than Australia these days. Good for them.


----------



## asher

That's slightly terrifying.


----------



## naw38

Look up our current prime minister, Tony Abbott - parliament recently had a vote on whether to hold a conscience vote on gay marriage; he told his party that anybody from his front benchers would be back benched if they voted in favour of it. We do not get a conscience vote.
He also passed a bill making it a criminal offence worthy of jail time for doctors working in detention centres to report cases of human rights violation perpetrated by those running the facilities. Scary sad times for this country.


----------



## Sang-Drax

naw38 said:


> Look up our current prime minister, Tony Abbott - parliament recently had a vote on whether to hold a conscience vote on gay marriage; he told his party that anybody from his front benchers would be back benched if they voted in favour of it. We do not get a conscience vote.
> He also passed a bill making it a criminal offence worthy of jail time for doctors working in detention centres to report cases of human rights violation perpetrated by those running the facilities. Scary sad times for this country.


----------



## tacotiklah

The transsexual gene identified! 
BBC NEWS | Health | Transsexual gene link identified

So science is backing the idea that we were in fact, born this way. Take that religious nuts!


----------



## Alex Kenivel

I just joined a newly formed gypsy punk band and the bass player is currently taking hormones and identifies female. She said she can't wait to lop off her manparts  And is currently my favorite member of this project.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

tacotiklah said:


> The transsexual gene identified!
> BBC NEWS | Health | Transsexual gene link identified
> 
> So science is backing the idea that we were in fact, born this way. Take that religious nuts!



B-but mental illness! 













Awesome news.


----------



## tacotiklah

Alex Kenivel said:


> I just joined a newly formed gypsy punk band and the bass player is currently taking hormones and identifies female. She said she can't wait to lop off her manparts  And is currently my favorite member of this project.



I apologize if it seems like I'm arguing semantics, but there's much more involved than "lopping off" man parts. 
But yeah, not to toot my own horn, but the vast majority of trans people I've met seem to be gifted in creativity of some sort. Must be those extra large androgen receptors.


----------



## Alex Kenivel

tacotiklah said:


> I apologize if it seems like I'm arguing semantics, but there's much more involved than "lopping off" man parts.



No apologies nessisary! I can imagine that there's much more to it, I just like the word "lop". But to be correct she said she couldn't wait to "get rid of this junk". 



tacotiklah said:


> But yeah, not to toot my own horn, but the vast majority of trans people I've met seem to be gifted in creativity of some sort. Must be those extra large androgen receptors.



I wasn't even talking about her musical abilities  (even though they were strongly present), but in attitude and personality compared to the rest of the bunch. 

I'm 29 this Thursday and the rest of the group is around 22 so when I broke the ice about, for example, having kids or being on my second marriage, she was the first to break an awkward silence with compliments and valid discussion.


----------



## piggins411

tacotiklah said:


> The transsexual gene identified!
> BBC NEWS | Health | Transsexual gene link identified
> 
> Take that religious nuts!




Religious nuts are known for their ability to admit science is right and they aren't


----------



## tacotiklah

Alex Kenivel said:


> No apologies nessisary! I can imagine that there's much more to it, I just like the word "lop". But to be correct she said she couldn't wait to "get rid of this junk".
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't even talking about her musical abilities  (even though they were strongly present), but in attitude and personality compared to the rest of the bunch.
> 
> I'm 29 this Thursday and the rest of the group is around 22 so when I broke the ice about, for example, having kids or being on my second marriage, she was the first to break an awkward silence with compliments and valid discussion.



I get you. I try to make jokes about it myself. I decided to rename all the pairs of scissors in my house "wiener whackers" as a way to help me laugh and get over the fear of such procedures. It's the little things that seem to help the most. 

And I'm glad that you found a great bass player and a good person. Not all of us are nice people, but thankfully she is.


----------



## UnderTheSign

Dunno about y'all but I love it when those fake customer service profiles pull stunts like this 
https://www.distractify.com/mariams...ite-1361964683.html?utm_content=17_2&ts_pid=2


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

UnderTheSign said:


> Dunno about y'all but I love it when those fake customer service profiles pull stunts like this
> https://www.distractify.com/mariams...ite-1361964683.html?utm_content=17_2&ts_pid=2


















Ice cold.


----------



## Edika

Some great replies from Doritos. Not trying to be all nice and accommodating to every idiot spewing their garbage all over the web so they won't loose a "customer". I honestly was never a big fan of Doritos but due to supporting a good cause and sticking up for it I'll be buying a lot more of their products as a capitalist consumer in a capitalist world, like the "good" pastor suggested.


----------



## ferret

The replies aren't from Doritos but from a fake account pretending to be official.


----------



## asher

Just like that guy who posted as Target to people butthurt over them removing some clothing gender labels.


----------



## Edika

Damn I got hoaxed. Maybe because I wish a company would have the balls to reply to people like these appropriately.


----------



## UnderTheSign

asher said:


> Just like that guy who posted as Target to people butthurt over them removing some clothing gender labels.


Man those were brilliant.


----------



## Alice AKW

So I'm presenting as female fully in public for the first time on Friday. I'm equal parts nervous and excited. <3


----------



## Alice AKW

Update: The night went well. I was nervous as hell, but I got a lot of compliments. <3


----------



## Sang-Drax

Alice AKW said:


> Update: The night went well. I was nervous as hell, but I got a lot of compliments. <3



That must be scary as hell! Congratulations on standing up for yourself!


----------



## OmegaSlayer

This is from one of my friends.
I'll leave it here.
https://www.gofundme.com/tyxw7s

This is what he posted publically some times ago, it was still 2014.


> Hello everyone that is reading this, I just wanted to speek my mind and maybe help some people that may be going through what I am going through. So before we dive deep into my life I just wanted to let you know what I am talking about first. The topic I will be going into is Transgender; I myself am a Transwoman and I want to help those whom may not have or have not opened up themselves to others. I shall begin with my early childhood; then move on to me coming open to my friends; to my college life, their support; and then finally the start of my transition to what I am currently at. But before I dive into that I am letting you know that I am not here to be pitiful or looking for people to feel sad about me. I am letting everyone in a community that I have been a part of for years be on my journey with me as friends, so lets begin!
> 
> 
> 
> My Childhood began as most children did carefree and full of happy thoughts. I had a couple friends, most drifted apart one stayed his name is Andrew man our childhood was awesome. His house was the bomb since he lived in my neighborhood across from my Aunt Marilyn I would hang out with him all the time. We would play in his creepy basement on his arcade machines, yes you read that right arcade machines. Man those were awesome we would play Contra and Bad Dudes all the time. I believe they had 10-15 arcade machines. His basement every time we would go down there we would be thinking there was a scary monster down there and when one of us went upstairs not to long the other one would run up after. Also the bathroom light was next to a electric metal cord so if you missed you would get a good zap, and it was always dark so if you missed you would feel it! When I was the age of 11 I had 1 female friend, I cant remember her name since that was 12-13 years ago I will probably remember it latter. She lived down my street and This is when I started realizing more about my true self. We would do makeovers all the time, we would play in her backyard and I always wanted a Polly Pocket cause she had one and I was jelious. I started asking myself why I liked these things. "am I ***", "why am I different", "is this wrong". Soon after my first couple days knowing her it got out in my public school. I was beaten, made fun of, looked down upon. I was called "***", "queer". They soon realized I wore woman's jeans and was called "cross dresser". I didn't understand when ever I looked in the mirror I saw a beautiful girl but to them all they saw was a freak. when I got into grade 7 I failed a year so grade 8 I should of been I was switched out of school because I had 'anger problems...' I tried to hide my true self from others. I became friends with lots of people because I was the quiet chilled out kid in the class. I didn't cause any problems with anyone and left my old self behind but at home I would still be my true self when nobody was around.
> 
> 
> 
> My high-school life was where I made some of my current friends and the more mature crowd I see from time to time today. I still hid my true self but I was still into girl stuff and I still was not sure why I liked these things. I was in a high school that was filled with stupid people and those whom would probably go to jail after dropping out before graduating. I didn't want to be noticed in high-school because of my public school life, So whenever I meet someone from public school that beat me up I would say all the time to them. "Who are you?" and they would look speechless and I would walk away. This helped me form new relationship with them and made me more mature around them since I was kind to them. Deep down I wanted to fit in with the girls in my school but when I tried memories would pop back up so I was quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After high-school I went into adult education right away and now I am at college after taking 1 year off to relax. I was now out of my parents house so I was less stressed out from not having their rules. I thought it was time, I started coming out to my friends I already came out to my parents saying I was bi-sexual so this was an easy thing to do. So I was on the phone with my friend Eli and I was like "hey I have something to say I don't know how to put it" all they say is let me guess you are Transgender? All I could do is laugh and laugh in so much happiness knowing my friends knew all this time made such a big thing on my chest feel lighter so I could breath more and more. I slowly came out to my college friends and knowing each of them that I had were supportive of me I knew this is the time to start. The college I am currently attending helped me so much they found me a Doctor in my area and I waited from November to April to start on the medication for estrogen and anti testosterone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am currently on those medication and now have started my journey. I plan on having surgeries done and want to show the world what I see! I will be glad to keep everyone of you posted here and if you have any questions feel free to ask and I will answer them to the best of my abilities.



I can say I understand him, but I'll be an hypocrite, I can just see his sadness and am not able to get it fully.
I hope you guys can be of support in any way possible, even speaking with him and eventually share your experience.
You can contact him if you want at http://twitter.com/wesfun if you want.
I took the decision to talk about him here by my free will, then told him and he was very happy I shared, that's why I've edited the post with more info.
Thanks peeps


----------



## Don Vito

This is your fault.


----------



## tacotiklah

OmegaSlayer said:


> This is from one of my friends.
> I'll leave it here.
> https://www.gofundme.com/tyxw7s
> 
> This is what he posted publically some times ago, it was still 2014.
> 
> 
> I can say I understand him, but I'll be an hypocrite, I can just see his sadness and am not able to get it fully.
> I hope you guys can be of support in any way possible, even speaking with him and eventually share your experience.
> You can contact him if you want at http://twitter.com/wesfun if you want.
> I took the decision to talk about him here by my free will, then told him and he was very happy I shared, that's why I've edited the post with more info.
> Thanks peeps



One of the best ways to show support for your friend is to address them by their preferred pronouns. Nothing will drive a transperson more batsh*t insane than when people they regard as friends simply refuse to make such a simple change in their vocabulary out of respect for them.

Since your friend posted that they are a transwoman, I'd venture a guess that they'd want to be known by she/her. Not picking on you or anything, just speaking up since it's a big deal to trans people to be known by the right pronouns.


----------



## tacotiklah

This thread needs to make a come back. Besides the horror that was yesterday, how go the lives of the rainbow sso peeps (and those that love and support them)?


----------



## blacai

tacotiklah said:


> One of the best ways to show support for your friend is to address them by their preferred pronouns. Nothing will drive a transperson more batsh*t insane than when people they regard as friends simply refuse to make such a simple change in their vocabulary out of respect for them.
> 
> Since your friend posted that they are a transwoman, I'd venture a guess that they'd want to be known by she/her. Not picking on you or anything, just speaking up since it's a big deal to trans people to be known by the right pronouns.



About pronouns, I have been reading about the "they epicene" and how it is more suitable for some situations(not this case where she is a transwoman.

In other languages it may be hard to address this issue.


----------



## Discoqueen

Hey y'all, just checking in and stuff ^.&#8364;. Came out as trans this past year, so just wanted to see how many other trans folks are on the forum. 

Xoxo -discy


----------



## Science_Penguin

blacai said:


> In other languages it may be hard to address this issue.



Actually, I've been re-learning all the Japanese I forgot from High School recently, and it occurred to me how easy it would be to adapt it to the transgender thing.

Pronouns are all understood once the subject of conversation is established. (e.g. Instead of, "I know Jeff. He is an okay guy." it's more like "I know Jeff. Is an okay guy.") so there's no real "he/she/they" to worry about.

And there's not much in the way of gender-specific honourifics either. Regardless if the person is a "Mister," or "Miss/Mrs.," -san would be the proper way to address an acquaintance. The only real exception is -kun which is specifically for young adult males.

Chinese, from what little I understand (working on that one next- gotta love Pimsleur) operates with a similar system, where "he/she" is summed up with a single pronoun. The only gender difference is in writing... and even that's apparently a rare thing now.


...Sorry, I got a thing for linguistics, don't mind me.


----------



## tacotiklah

Discoqueen said:


> Hey y'all, just checking in and stuff ^.&#8364;. Came out as trans this past year, so just wanted to see how many other trans folks are on the forum.
> 
> Xoxo -discy



...you rang? 

Seriously though, there's a lot of us. You're in good company.


----------



## vilk

Science_Penguin said:


> Actually, I've been re-learning all the Japanese I forgot from High School recently, and it occurred to me how easy it would be to adapt it to the transgender thing.
> 
> Pronouns are all understood once the subject of conversation is established. (e.g. Instead of, "I know Jeff. He is an okay guy." it's more like "I know Jeff. Is an okay guy.") so there's no real "he/she/they" to worry about.
> 
> And there's not much in the way of gender-specific honourifics either. Regardless if the person is a "Mister," or "Miss/Mrs.," -san would be the proper way to address an acquaintance. The only real exception is -kun which is specifically for young adult males.



It might seem that way for very basic Japanese, but once you get to more advanced Japanese there are like, different grammar structures/word endings depending on whether the speaker is male or female. Rather, I as a man could ask a question and end it with -kashira?, but if I did it everyone would think I'm trying to tell a joke or something, because only a woman can ask a question ending with -kashira?

Oh, I thought of a more basic one: Girls can end an informal question ending with a noun/[na-type]adjective using the syllable 'no'. "Ryo-chan ha ringo ga suki no?", but it would be unnatural for a man not to end his sentence using 'na' before the 'no'. "Aki-chan ha ringo ga suki nano?". Also when using "yo". A girl can say "Watashi ha ringo suki yo", but a boy has to say "Boku (because watashi would be formal) ha ringo suki da yo"

I learned Japanese formally, but my informal Japanese I learned (mostly) from my wife, so I always worry that I talk "girly". But I'm foreign so they kind of expect you to talk goofy.

I believe that this whole concept is called "yakuwarigo", or "role language", and I remember being tested on it in university, where one would have to read a sentence and then answer whether the speaker was a man or a woman.

There is actually a very prominent Japanese celebrity that is a transvestite (I'm not sure whether he's transgender, transsexual, or simply gay, because they don't seem to talk about it on TV, but he's certainly wearing women's clothing and make-up) named Matsuko Deluxe. I don't remember what yakuwari he uses to talk but I'm going to check up on that and let you know! That is, if you even want to know... 

Edit: my wife says Matsuko does say watashi and use women's yakuwarigo, and that it's pretty standard for men who are women.


----------



## Science_Penguin

vilk said:


> It might seem that way for very basic Japanese, but once you get to more advanced Japanese there are like, different grammar structures/word endings depending on whether the speaker is male or female. Rather, I as a man could ask a question and end it with -kashira?, but if I did it everyone would think I'm trying to tell a joke or something, because only a woman can ask a question ending with -kashira?
> 
> Oh, I thought of a more basic one: Girls can end an informal question ending with a noun/[na-type]adjective using the syllable 'no'. "Ryo-chan ha ringo ga suki no?", but it would be unnatural for a man not to end his sentence using 'na' before the 'no'. "Aki-chan ha ringo ga suki nano?". Also when using "yo". A girl can say "Watashi ha ringo suki yo", but a boy has to say "Boku (because watashi would be formal) ha ringo suki da yo"
> 
> I learned Japanese formally, but my informal Japanese I learned (mostly) from my wife, so I always worry that I talk "girly". But I'm foreign so they kind of expect you to talk goofy.
> 
> I believe that this whole concept is called "yakuwarigo", or "role language", and I remember being tested on it in university, where one would have to read a sentence and then answer whether the speaker was a man or a woman.
> 
> There is actually a very prominent Japanese celebrity that is a transvestite (I'm not sure whether he's transgender, transsexual, or simply gay, because they don't seem to talk about it on TV, but he's certainly wearing women's clothing and make-up) named Matsuko Deluxe. I don't remember what yakuwari he uses to talk but I'm going to check up on that and let you know! That is, if you even want to know...
> 
> Edit: my wife says Matsuko does say watashi and use women's yakuwarigo, and that it's pretty standard for men who are women.



Oh, yeah, I remember some of that, but I wasn't aware it was that strictly enforced. I figured it was just kind of like the higher-toned slightly-lisped voice some men have- kinda girly and sets off hits on the gaydar but most people just kind of shrug it off.

I do recall having to say "boku" back in High School, but from what I gather, I'm at the age where I'd just use "watashi" now anyway, so I guess I don't think about that much.

I'm never entirely sure with Japanese celebrities... at least where musicians are concerned. Hizaki from Versailles passes for a woman real well, but I can never get solid confirmation if it's just for the show or if he's actually trans- I've heard people claim both. Maybe if I saw some interviews and paid attention to the speech patterns it might provide a clue??


----------



## Discoqueen

tacotiklah said:


> ...you rang?
> 
> Seriously though, there's a lot of us. You're in good company.



Hey hey ^.^! I'm glad to hear there are a lot of us on the forums!

In regards to your post about how us rainbow peeps are doing, life as a rainbow peep is hard, especially since most people prefer the yellow ones :/. 

Kidding aside: As someone who's just recently come out, after years of hiding and trying to figure out what the .... was going on in my spirit, I've been doing well! Finally figuring out how to wear the clothes that make me happy and make me feel as feminine as I feel, so that is epic haha. Also, I am lucky to have many people who either hold no prejudice against me or actively support my coming out and transition. Personally, I've only had one scary/hella uncomforatable situation since I've come out (though, going stealth when traveling or going somewhere I don't trust is still a thing.) Trying to learn how to be alert has been a doozy, though. 

How has everyone else been??

Also, I love talking queer things, so I hope we can keep the posts rolling!

Edit: also! Picked a new name for myself, as my loving as a woman (without physical transition) has already begun. I've decided on Gwendolyn, so I am very excited!!


----------



## tacotiklah

Right on! Well as someone that's be out and open for years on both here and IRL, feel free to hmu if you need advice on trans stuff. <3


----------



## DredFul

In case you need a reason to smile: as of today same sex couples can get married here in Finland 

Love does win in the end!


----------



## MARKMYWORDS

Came out as bi last year, got lucky everyone has been cool


----------



## Tech Wrath

Trans girl here. Luckily things have changed in my generation and my parents, family, and friends are all accepting (as well as most people everywhere). Hopefully my doctor will let me start hormones soon and I can start presenting female full time! 
Thank you and good luck to everyone :3


----------



## eggy in a bready

what's up?

whatever your shade of queer is, feel free to post in here. come on, let's all take a rainbow ride to the dark... er, pink side. grab a cheap, stiff drink and join me.

no ViKs allowed.


----------



## Curt

Suh. I'm a very very tired trans. I still wish I knew how to go about a name change here. Deadnames succ


----------



## eggy in a bready

suh dude. what do you go by nowadays?


----------



## Curt

Kayleigh's the name.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I'm transitioning into an old man, if that counts. In all seriousness, I'm straight and don't really care what people do as long as it's not hurting children, the elderly, or anyone*, really. Take care, folks. 

*Unless they are into that sorta thing.


----------



## eggy in a bready

Curt said:


> Kayleigh's the name.






Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm transitioning into an old man, if that counts. In all seriousness, I'm straight and don't really care what people do as long as it's not hurting children, the elderly, or anyone*, really. Take care, folks.
> 
> *Unless they are into that sorta thing.


sup spaced. tell me about that/those time/s you thought about munching some dude butt. ;]


----------



## BIG ND SWEATY

Curt said:


> Suh. I'm a very very tired trans. I still wish I knew how to go about a name change here. Deadnames succ


You can message Alex, the admin, and he can change it for you


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

eggy in a bready said:


> sup spaced. tell me about that/those time/s you thought about munching some dude butt. ;]


Uh, yeah. No. @8:04



Yeah, Paul... I've never seen a guy where I thought it was a close second to a woman either. C'est la vie, I guess.


----------



## eggy in a bready

I'm not convinced that a dude wearing a studded leather jacket is anything but a secret queen.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

What is the community’s thoughts on the charge that the term “cis” is contrived to be used in the context of marginalizing an average person?

For background (because this is an emotional discussion, rather than a principled one): I’m not offended in the slightest when my BLT friends introduce or otherwise refer to me as “cis”; because that context is boiling down a lot of nuanced background into shorthand for the sake of practical brevity, rather than concision. 

I’m just easily fascinated by the language that arises to inform political identity and designation (down to their etymology).


----------



## KnightBrolaire

eggy in a bready said:


> I'm not convinced that a dude wearing a studded leather jacket is anything but a secret queen.


yes because the LGBT community has monopoly on biker/bdsm paraphernalia 
it's your fault I can't wear capris as a straight man dammit


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

KnightBrolaire said:


> yes because the LGBT community has monopoly on biker/bdsm paraphernalia
> it's your fault I can't wear capris as a straight man dammit


----------



## Curt

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> What is the community’s thoughts on the charge that the term “cis” is contrived to be used in the context of marginalizing an average person?
> 
> For background (because this is an emotional discussion, rather than a principled one): I’m not offended in the slightest when my BLT friends introduce or otherwise refer to me as “cis”; because that context is boiling down a lot of nuanced background into shorthand for the sake of practical brevity, rather than concision.
> 
> I’m just easily fascinated by the language that arises to inform political identity and designation (down to their etymology).


Honestly, rarely, and by which I mean the odd tumblr post that gets shared around facebook, have I seen cis used to marginalize anyone. What I have seen is, is myself use the word cis to basically, as you said, for brevity, explain to someone some of my thoughts on the whole trans people being used as to push political agendas. As it goes, someone saw it, didn't realize what it meant, asked, and when I said it meant "not trans" basically, I got tore into about how it was a slur intended to degrade "normal" people. So yeah, basically, I think that whole charge is a rather ridiculous one. The obvious example is the "die cis scum" type stuff, and myself and many others do not condone that tripe.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I would mention a gay and a trans person I support, but I don't care to dodge folding chairs, ripped up arena seating, tomatoes [plus other assorted fruits/veggies], and a couple kitchen sinks.


----------



## MFB

KnightBrolaire said:


> yes because the LGBT community has monopoly on biker/bdsm paraphernalia
> it's your fault I can't wear capris as a straight man dammit



Yeah, well, it'd be nice if I could wear my ass-less chaps in public again, but that's another that them "queermosexuals" done took from me!


----------



## eggy in a bready

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> What is the community’s thoughts on the charge that the term “cis” is contrived to be used in the context of marginalizing an average person?
> 
> For background (because this is an emotional discussion, rather than a principled one): I’m not offended in the slightest when my BLT friends introduce or otherwise refer to me as “cis”; because that context is boiling down a lot of nuanced background into shorthand for the sake of practical brevity, rather than concision.
> 
> I’m just easily fascinated by the language that arises to inform political identity and designation (down to their etymology).


refer to kayleigh's post above. i've rarely heard that word used outside of academia and, well, tumblr.


----------



## Randy

To the broader point of sexuality and self identification as a whole, I think culturally most of us are still in the dark ages. I like to people watch and analyze (though not judge) and it's just amazing how much people insist on putting themselves in boxes; in my experience nearly literally everyone I've ever met choose to put their sexuality or identity into a strict box to the world but in practice, that same proportion of people are all over the map and a lot harder to define.

As a point of reference, you look at the spike in something like 'taboo' (meaning "step" family) pornography into the mainstream, with it's interest level validated by trending/top search terms in aggregaters yet do you know of anybody that would tell you "Yeah man, that's what I'm really into right there". Yet it's so prevalent.

I bring that up because it's really cathartic to see communities of openness, as I still think it's a pretty rare thing.


----------



## odibrom

Bias/prejudice/prejudgment and fear are all ove any cultural identity. Once one gets free of those, one is able to look into his sibling and smile, no matter what is the color of his/her eye, skin, beliefs, sexual identity or eating habits/choices. One speaks less and listens/reads more... and is happier!


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

Dude, I think we got the same fortune cookies.


----------



## USMarine75

Randy said:


> As a point of reference, you look at the spike in something like 'taboo' (meaning "step" family) pornography into the mainstream, with it's interest level validated by trending/top search terms in aggregaters yet do you know of anybody that would tell you "Yeah man, that's what I'm really into right there". Yet it's so prevalent.
> 
> I bring that up because it's really cathartic to see communities of openness, as I still think it's a pretty rare thing.


----------



## eggy in a bready

hey so i appreciate y'all sharing yr platitudes/philosophizing about human nature/sexuality/blah blah whatever, but how about keeping that stuff to a minimum? lol. less bloviating, more queer shit.

where my gay dawgs at?

edit: this is my 69th post


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

eggy in a bready said:


> hey so i appreciate y'all sharing yr platitudes/philosophizing about human nature/sexuality/blah blah whatever, but how about keeping that stuff to a minimum? lol. less bloviating, more queer shit.
> 
> where my gay dawgs at?
> 
> edit: this is my 69th post


Should we post some Skatt Bros, garbage tracks from Hot Space, and David Bowie and Mick Jagger singing Dancing in the Streets for ya?


----------



## eggy in a bready

we get it man. you're old and out of touch.


----------



## USMarine75

Here is this better? It's the gayest thing I've ever seen...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

What the bloody hell is Mick doing in the beginning of that video? Yikes. And yes, I realize that someone's replaced the audio sort of like a "SHREDS" video.


----------



## broj15

Finally coming around to the fact that I don't necessarily identify as a man, but then again I'm not really sure what I identify as ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I've felt this way for a bit but haven't been comfortable talking to others about it, mainly cuz I'm afraid they won't take me seriously since Im not as androgenous/don't present "queer enough".


----------



## QuantumCybin

Can you imagine if everyone was just cool with humans identifying as humans? People fuckin suck


----------



## IGC

Straight guy here, but I have had gay family members and friends that I support/ care for.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass

I figured out I'm an asexual about a year ago.

http://www.asexualityarchive.com/asexuality-misconceptions-and-mistakes/
http://www.whatisasexuality.com/family-and-friends/parents/


----------



## possumkiller

I'm pretty sure I'm a straight guy I think. I've only ever slept with females (well one of them was pretty big like built like a wrestler and probably could've killed me with her bear hands). Two hetero marriages. Two sons. I've never found myself wanting to be sexually involved with men.

I don't have any problems with others' sexual preferences. I always thought it was really nobody's business. People should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

I was in a psychology class at college and I forget exactly what the discussion started out as... I related a story of a time during an itaq deployment where myself and a female soldier played a game that most anyone plays. Would you rather fuck person A or person B. Saying neither isn't allowed you have to pick one. 

Of course I started giving her choices between ugly guys and hot chicks to see what she would say. Then she started to give me choices between guys and at first it caught me off guard and I had probably the typical reaction of "no way I'm not a homo". But I'm all for fairness so I gave it a shot. I found that it is completely possible to be a straight man and still appreciate the attractiveness of another male. 

The females in the class appreciated it of course but I'm really surprised not a single male could admit they thought the same. I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit. It's not like saying another man is attractive equals giving him a rim job... 

Is it?


I think people are just insecure.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

possumkiller said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm a straight guy I think. I've only ever slept with females (well one of them was pretty big like built like a wrestler and probably could've killed me with her bear hands). Two hetero marriages. Two sons. I've never found myself wanting to be sexually involved with men.
> 
> I don't have any problems with others' sexual preferences. I always thought it was really nobody's business. People should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.
> 
> I was in a psychology class at college and I forget exactly what the discussion started out as... I related a story of a time during an itaq deployment where myself and a female soldier played a game that most anyone plays. Would you rather fuck person A or person B. Saying neither isn't allowed you have to pick one.
> 
> Of course I started giving her choices between ugly guys and hot chicks to see what she would say. Then she started to give me choices between guys and at first it caught me off guard and I had probably the typical reaction of "no way I'm not a homo". But I'm all for fairness so I gave it a shot. I found that it is completely possible to be a straight man and still appreciate the attractiveness of another male.
> 
> The females in the class appreciated it of course but I'm really surprised not a single male could admit they thought the same. I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit. It's not like saying another man is attractive equals giving him a rim job...
> 
> Is it?
> 
> 
> I think people are just insecure.


Except you did, and you know it.


----------



## possumkiller

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Except you did, and you know it.


I'm not sure which part you're referring to?


----------



## Edika

possumkiller said:


> I'm not sure which part you're referring to?



I think the rim job but he's joking (I think). Sorry for butting in @Spaced Out Ace.


----------



## possumkiller

Well to be perfectly honest an asshole is the same whether it's male or female. Either way it damn well better be shaved and squeaky clean enough to eat off of if I'm going to put my tongue anywhere near it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Edika said:


> I think the rim job but he's joking (I think). Sorry for butting in @Spaced Out Ace.


Nah, you just about covered it.


----------



## Unleash The Fury

possumkiller said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm a straight guy I think. I've only ever slept with females (well one of them was pretty big like built like a wrestler and probably could've killed me with her bear hands). Two hetero marriages. Two sons. I've never found myself wanting to be sexually involved with men.
> 
> I don't have any problems with others' sexual preferences. I always thought it was really nobody's business. People should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.
> 
> I was in a psychology class at college and I forget exactly what the discussion started out as... I related a story of a time during an itaq deployment where myself and a female soldier played a game that most anyone plays. Would you rather fuck person A or person B. Saying neither isn't allowed you have to pick one.
> 
> Of course I started giving her choices between ugly guys and hot chicks to see what she would say. Then she started to give me choices between guys and at first it caught me off guard and I had probably the typical reaction of "no way I'm not a homo". But I'm all for fairness so I gave it a shot. I found that it is completely possible to be a straight man and still appreciate the attractiveness of another male.
> 
> The females in the class appreciated it of course but I'm really surprised not a single male could admit they thought the same. I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit. It's not like saying another man is attractive equals giving him a rim job...
> 
> Is it?
> 
> 
> I think people are just insecure.


But even then you shouldn't word it like that...that you appreciate the attractiveness of another male. You should rather say, I understand that there are men that are more ugly than others.....it just sounds more right. Lol


----------



## narad

Edika said:


> I think the rim job but he's joking (I think). Sorry for _butting_ in @Spaced Out Ace.



You did good, kid.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I feel out of the loop with this, but I found out that the owner/lead designer Dylana (formerly Jamie) of 3rd Power amps came out earlier this year. 

https://www.outandaboutnashville.com/story/glam-rocker-dylana-nova-vain-debuts-woman

It's pretty fucking cool. I always had a thing for 3rd Power amps ever since I learned about them years ago, and it's cool to see the head honcho is part of the community. They have some of my favorite hot-rodded Marshall tones.


----------



## NateFalcon

Edika said:


> I think the rim job but he's joking (I think). Sorry for butting in @Spaced Out Ace.


“Butting” in


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I feel out of the loop with this, but I found out that the owner/lead designer Dylana (formerly Jamie) of 3rd Power amps came out earlier this year.
> 
> https://www.outandaboutnashville.com/story/glam-rocker-dylana-nova-vain-debuts-woman
> 
> It's pretty fucking cool. I always had a thing for 3rd Power amps ever since I learned about them years ago, and it's cool to see the head honcho is part of the community. They have some of my favorite hot-rodded Marshall tones.


Maybe this'll get Vivika Vincent to quit trying to hide her moose hoof and come out.







Maybe she'll even use this as the logo for her debut solo album.


----------

