# Fanned frets vs regular frets



## Larcher (Feb 22, 2015)

Hey all, I'm getting a custom guitar built next month, and I can choose to have the frets fanned or not. I've been using non-fanned guitars since I've started playing ~12 years ago. But the fanned frets seem more ergonomic with the way the hand is positioned around the neck and fretboard. 

I've read somewhere that they help with intonation, and on another board they said it does nothing for intonation. 

So I'm asking you guys, the ones who build guitars for fun/a living.


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 22, 2015)

Longer scale length for the low end means a smaller string size and better intonation. Shorter scale for the treble side means thicker strings and better intonation.

Long story short, being multiscale will help the instrument intonate better.

Extreme example: Imagine how difficult a piano, or a harp would be to intonate if all the strings were the same length.


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 22, 2015)

Tension and proper intonation at lower tunings using thinner strings is the main benefit. Although people sing the praises of their playability, I don't see a benefit playing wise. I've never had a problem playing either, but once I had a Fanned Fret guitar my others didn't suddenly not get played. The benefits IMO lie elsewhere, but some people might feel it helps them play better, I don't think it did anything playability wise that my straight fretted guitars didn't.


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## odibrom (Feb 22, 2015)

DancingCloseToU said:


> Longer scale length for the low end means a smaller string size and better intonation. Shorter scale for the treble side means thicker strings and better intonation.
> 
> Long story short, being multiscale will help the instrument intonate better.
> 
> Extreme example: Imagine how difficult a piano, or a harp would be to intonate if all the strings were the same length.



I understand your idea here, but those examples, Piano and Harp, do not compare to guitars since intonation is not an issue. Their strings ring always on their full length and guitars, violins, violas, celos, etc. mostly don't. Their problem is tuning, not intonation. In order to achieve that amplitude from low to high notes, their strings HAVE to have different lengths or it becomes impossible to tune them with these ranges.

These examples, however work for the consistency on tension throughout strings all over the fingerboard and this is ergonomics in action, plain and simple. Better string tension consistency, better playing, IMO.

The intonation thing comes from the string tension or tuning versus its gauge and length. Better string tension (subjective thing here) will allow for better intonation...

The main thing with fanned fret or multiscale instruments is the difference between the bottom and top scale lengths, or how big will the fan be. Extreme fans may well become uncomfortable to play for some players.

... so, these are my two cents here, from someone who doesn't owe no fanned instrument... so, school me please...


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## capoeiraesp (Feb 22, 2015)

Here's a god bit of detail on multis.

What is a Multiscale? - Ormsby Guitars - Custom made electric guitars multiscales and basses - Guitar making courses - Multiscale and fanned fret guitars


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 23, 2015)

odibrom said:


> The intonation thing comes from the string tension or tuning versus its gauge and length. Better string tension (subjective thing here) will allow for better intonation...
> 
> The main thing with fanned fret or multiscale instruments is the difference between the bottom and top scale lengths, or how big will the fan be. Extreme fans may well become uncomfortable to play for some players.
> 
> ... so, these are my two cents here, from someone who doesn't owe no fanned instrument... so, school me please...



My main 2 instruments right now are multiscales with a 3"+ fan (pendulum 82528 and an Intrepid 92730)... I've owned 4 total, and I've just started my first guitar build ever, a 26" - 29.5" 8 string(3.5" fan for those not counting)...

For me, the ergonomics are there with the multiscale design. It helps with my arpeggios quite a bit, but I especially notice the difference in my barre chords. 3.5" may be pushing it, but I think I can comfortably adapt.

All ergonomics aside, the bass strings of the guitar intonate much better when the scale is longer and the strings are thinner. Again, the piano or harp are extreme examples, but on point. 

Also: Very good read capoeiraesp/Ormsby!


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 23, 2015)

I'd really recommend you try/own a fanned fret first to get the feel of one and what gauges you like first before spending lots of money on a custom guitar.


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## Neilzord (Feb 23, 2015)

Fanned frets are cooler


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## Larcher (Feb 23, 2015)

Thank you guys for the input  I will call my local guitar store and see if they have anny fanned guitars to try out first!


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 23, 2015)

Larcher said:


> Thank you guys for the input  I will call my local guitar store and see if they have anny fanned guitars to try out first!



Certainly try it out first... Whatever works best for you, different strokes, different blokes, and what not...

It's all subjective, but I <3 my multiscale instruments, and I don't know if there's any turning back.


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## vansinn (Feb 23, 2015)

As you're already talking about how you see ergonomics possibly working out better with multiscaling, I'd say you probably won't have much issue adapting.

Before ordering, try visit the fret2find site, design a suitable fan, print and glue it to cardboard, stick the cardboard to a neck (like under the strings), and get at least a certain feel for how it may approximately feel in real life.


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## Larcher (Feb 23, 2015)

vansinn said:


> As you're already talking about how you see ergonomics possibly working out better with multiscaling, I'd say you probably won't have much issue adapting.
> 
> Before ordering, try visit the fret2find site, design a suitable fan, print and glue it to cardboard, stick the cardboard to a neck (like under the strings), and get at least a certain feel for how it may approximately feel in real life.




thanks for this information! could you link me the website? I can't find a website with 'fret2find' in the URL


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Feb 23, 2015)

http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/


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## odibrom (Feb 23, 2015)

As far as I know of, Novax may have been the first brand to sell this concept on their guitars (since mid/late 80s?) and, as I have read here somewhere, they patented the term Fanned Fret. Concklin have also been building multiscales for quite a long time.

The concept is quite old (the opharion proves it), but only recently was recovered and adapted to contemporary instruments like the electric guitar.


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 24, 2015)

odibrom said:


> Better string tension (subjective thing here) will allow for better intonation...





To avoid confusion, let me try to clear up what I'm saying regarding intonation...

The thicker the strings, the longer the scale has to be to allow them to vibrate freely/fully.

Even if the string tension were to remain the exact same (or "better"), a longer thinner string would intonate low notes across the fretboard much better than a much thicker string with a shorter scale length. At least that's how I've understood it... My ears/tuners too.


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## rockskate4x (Feb 25, 2015)

fanned frets do nothing for intonation EXCEPT that they let you use even thinner strings at the the longer scales (better intonation in the bass), and/or thicker strings at the shorter scales (better tone in the treble). With a straight scale, you could only pick one of these possibilities, while with multiscale, an infinite number of arrangements are possible depending on the how great the difference between the scales is and whether they are predominately long scales or short scales.


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## 7stg (Feb 25, 2015)

The main benefit to multiscale is reduced inharmonicity in the lower notes.

Inharmonicity is where the overtone frequencies of the note played are out of tune with the fundamental. Higher inharmonicity results in bass notes that have a muddy, buzzy, sound whose pitch is more difficult to discern. Shorter scale lengths and strings that are stiffer and or thicker exhibit higher inharmonicity.

multiscale allows the low end to have a longer scale than a person finds comfortable on the high side, and going all in and choosing a scale length for the high end that is as long as possible while avoiding string breakage then extending the low end from there for the ultimate low end clarity and definition.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/10064-string-gauges-inharmonicity.html
Inharmonicity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Piano acoustics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Knarbens (Feb 25, 2015)

Recently strung up my first multiscale build and gotta say it does play less unfamiliar than I thought it would. To me the higher frets angle feels the most unusual, but the hand position feels quite natural.

Just my two cents.


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 25, 2015)

Knarbens said:


> Recently strung up my first multiscale build and gotta say it does play less unfamiliar than I thought it would. To me the higher frets angle feels the most unusual, but the hand position feels quite natural.
> 
> Just my two cents.



Hm, now that you mention it, I think this was probably the most difficult hurdle for me as well. I kinda had a hard time with the higher scales and arpeggios at first too. I think partially because none of my multiscale fretboards had any fret markers (only side dots) in the past, and they all had a perpendicular around the 7th. It certainly got more difficult the more extreme the scale difference got. I agree though, the position does feel quite natural, after adapting of course. 

Looking back now with 20:20, adapting wasn't too bad all things considered. Now that I've been able to get intimate with a good number of different multiscale guitars, I'm really glad I did.

Almost every one of my guitars are multiscale now, so these are my super subjective two cents.

Again, I'm really excited to get pretty extreme with this next fan. Not as crazy as some of the builds on here... :cough: Durero, Ethereal, and others I can't remember off of the top of my head.


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## Sumsar (Feb 25, 2015)

For all the guys saying that longer scales make it possible to use thinner strings which intonate better: Have you ever considered just using thin strings on a regular scale guitar, say like a 25.5'' ? Sure it will be a little spaghetti but thats not a problem, you just have to change your picking style a bit to accommodate for that.

Again if we say that it is only for intonation issues, then I see no point in doing fanned fret unless you are tuning extremely low - in which case I would suggest you let your bassplayer play those lines.

The major downside is that you loose the awesomeness of having a floyd rose, as there is not really any trems for fanned frets (enlighten me if there is).

I use 9 - 54 on a 25.5'' 7 string tuned to C sometimes B, and i don't have any problems with the strings being spaghetti or wont intonate?


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## Daniel13 (Feb 25, 2015)

in my opinion (still new to the concept) bigger strings and lower notes seem to need longer scales to avoid sounding floppy, and thinner strings at higher or "standard" tuning would need to be way too thin at 28" or even 30" scale, and they tend to not get floppy with lower tension. plus they are much easier and comfortable to play with less tension. (as opposed to bigger strings being easier and more comfortable with more tension)

just my idea sorry if it's hard to follow


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 25, 2015)

I went for fanned frets on my Daemoness Cimmerian(25.5" - 26.5") for multiple reasons, these are my personal opinions and findings over the years of playing 7s and wanting a guitar to tune to A standard. 


B is the max you can tune down on a 25.5" guitar before tone suffers
I like 17lbs of tension for the lowest string and 13lbs for the highest string so I use a 60 for B and 9 for E with a gradual increase in tension up the strings
Low gauge strings sound to dark which means compromising the tone of all the other strings to tighten/brighten the low string, same problem with gauges larger than 60 but they have more of a "thud" tone
low gauge strings also go way out of tune when I play, even fretting causes problems
Strings larger than 60 have a weird tone on a 25.5"
26.5 on the treble side can be a little awkward for lead playing
The extra inch on the low end will tighten up the tone while keeping the sound of a 25.5' scale as you go up the strings
The angled pickups also further tighten up the bass without the hi-end getting to bright/harsh so you get an even tone across all the strings
Easier to intonate but that more depends on the guitar and how far you can move the bridge back, being able to use lower gauges than you would on a 25.5" helps a lot.


Everybody has a different approach so its important to find what works for you. Lee mcKinney and Jason Richardson use 56 on a 25.5" in Drop G which works perfect for them while Joe Cocchi(Within the Ruins) uses a 70 on a 27.5" with the same tuning.


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## Renkenstein (Feb 25, 2015)

I've always struggled with tight picking on my 25.5" Ibanez and Schecter guitars tuned to C standard(which isn't really that low by today's standards). I've always used 12-56ga strings, because any bigger on the low end, and you either have to drill out a tuner or worse to get a 60ga on there. Then you're dealing with all kinds of wonky string tensions with no sense of balance from string to string. I built a 26.25" scale guitar and all those problems are gone. The same strings are much tighter and more responsive to my heavy hand. 

I went into that build knowing what I needed to improve my playing, and I planned it accordingly. It paid off in spades, and is the best guitar I've ever played...no lie.

Multiscale can fix any string tension and intonation issues for lower tuned guitars, and get you into a more reasonable string gauge that doesn't resemble the cables on the Golden Gate Bridge. 

Think of your playing and how your next instrument can improve you as a musician. Choosing a custom guitar, especially this significant facet of a build, shouldn't be rushed. It took me a dozen years of playing in lower tuned bands to realize what I needed to do to overcome my picking issues due to string tension.


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## rockskate4x (Feb 25, 2015)

Sumsar said:


> For all the guys saying that longer scales make it possible to use thinner strings which intonate better: Have you ever considered just using thin strings on a regular scale guitar, say like a 25.5'' ? Sure it will be a little spaghetti but thats not a problem, you just have to change your picking style a bit to accommodate for that.
> 
> Again if we say that it is only for intonation issues, then I see no point in doing fanned fret unless you are tuning extremely low - in which case I would suggest you let your bassplayer play those lines.
> 
> ...



Technically this is true but the majority prefer higher tension. Also, i consider inharmonicity to be a sort of bad harmonic intonation. Even if the fundamental is intonated properly by way of moving the bridge saddle, the harmonics can only be made purer by decreasing the string gauge. With distortion, a little harmonic impurity is less noticeable and may in some cases even be desireable (I.E. if you want a muddier gibson type sound rather than a snappy fender type sound). However, harmonic purity makes clean tones sweeter and distortion more forgiving, so while drop G is fundamentally intonatable on my epiphone, i'd much rather do it on my friend's PRS mike mushok baritone.


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 25, 2015)

Sumsar said:


> For all the guys saying that longer scales make it possible to use thinner strings which intonate better: Have you ever considered just using thin strings on a regular scale guitar, say like a 25.5'' ? Sure it will be a little spaghetti but thats not a problem, you just have to change your picking style a bit to accommodate for that...
> 
> ...The major downside is that you loose the awesomeness of having a floyd rose, as there is not really any trems for fanned frets (enlighten me if there is)...



Thin strings tuned down on short scales stretch and bow way too much for me to be able to play, and just fretting/picking raises the note like 70 cents or more before returning to pitch... 

Also, https://www.kahlerusa.com/multi-scale-tremolos-bridges


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## Deegatron (Feb 26, 2015)

that Khaler has to be the ugliest cobbled together piece of crap bridge I've ever seen in my life... but the price point is right...
only $450 dollars.. that's completely resna... wwwwhhhhaaaaaaaa?!?!?!?!?!?!
You got to be shitting me khaler... you erector set together a couple of extensions on the higher strings and glue on an extension to the base plate and wanna charge $450 bucks... someone in middle management needs to be taken out back and flogged with a sack of organic oranges....


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## DancingCloseToU (Feb 26, 2015)

Deegatron said:


> that Khaler has to be the ugliest cobbled together piece of crap bridge I've ever seen in my life... but the price point is right...
> only $450 dollars.. that's completely resna... wwwwhhhhaaaaaaaa?!?!?!?!?!?!
> You got to be shitting me khaler... you erector set together a couple of extensions on the higher strings and glue on an extension to the base plate and wanna charge $450 bucks... someone in middle management needs to be taken out back and flogged with a sack of organic oranges....



I think Kahler even used to make golf clubs, which are just extremely overpriced pieces of steel/aluminum/graphite... so I see their overall business model hasn't changed much. 

Edit: All jokes aside, I had Kahlers on both my Agile Pendulum 72527 and my Interceptor 828. Both were comfortable and worked pretty well.
I probably wouldn't buy one alone for ~$450, but are somehow very reasonably priced on those guitars in particular...


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## vansinn (Feb 27, 2015)

DancingCloseToU said:


> The thicker the strings, the longer the scale has to be to allow them to vibrate freely/fully.



No, this isn't correct.
For a string to vibrate at it's lowest full-scale note, it will need a certain mass.
This amount of mass can be achieved with thicker strings at shorter scales, or with thinner strings at longer scales - the mass will still be the same.



> Even if the string tension were to remain the exact same (or "better"), a longer thinner string would intonate low notes across the fretboard much better than a much thicker string with a shorter scale length. At least that's how I've understood it... My ears/tuners too.



Yes, this is correct.
The longer, thinner string will better be able to vibrate more freely, and thus will have better relations between the fundamental (F1) tone and the overtones/harmonics (F2...F5 to F6).
The thinner string also has better intonicity (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/10064-string-gauges-inharmonicity.html)




Deegatron said:


> that Khaler has to be the ugliest cobbled together piece of crap bridge I've ever seen in my life... but the price point is right...
> only $450 dollars.. that's completely resna... wwwwhhhhaaaaaaaa?!?!?!?!?!?!
> You got to be shitting me khaler... you erector set together a couple of extensions on the higher strings and glue on an extension to the base plate and wanna charge $450 bucks... someone in middle management needs to be taken out back and flogged with a sack of organic oranges....



I seriously fail to understand negative rants on Kahler. Don't like what you see, choose the next brand - that is, if you can spot the many other manufacturers making 8,9,10 string multiscaled whammy bridges - fine tuners inluded..


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## bostjan (Feb 27, 2015)

OT

I've owned a few guitars with Kahlers. They function very well. They are a bit unsightly, but have a great feel to them. It does take about twice as long to change strings as it does on a FR, and maybe four times as long as changing strings on a hardtail.

But the point is clear:



vansinn said:


> if you can spot the many other manufacturers making 8,9,10 string multiscaled whammy bridges


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## Tom Drinkwater (Feb 27, 2015)

I believe it depends entirely on the guitar and the players hands. 8 strings in F# standard work best with long-ish scales and some people don't like their high strings up in the 27" scale range. For those players I'd say to get a multiscale. This becomes probably more and more necessary as you start adding strings and increasing scale length but then again there are lot's of 30" straight scale 8's and 9's out there. 

My most recent model is a 7 string with a 24.75" to 26" scale and while I really don't think a multiscale layout is absolutely necessary on a 7 it works extremely well with the right scales. 

If you're having a guitar custom built I'd say go for the multiscale if for no other reason it's different and you may love it.


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## Prophetable (Mar 2, 2015)

Those multiscale Kahlers look fine to me. I don't see how they're any less aesthetically pleasing than a regular Floyd.


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## Renkenstein (Mar 2, 2015)

I've never caught Kahler fever. Always preferred the feel of an original Floyd or Edge. As a multiscale trem...yeah Kahler has that market cornered right now. I'd like to see some innovation from the other camps in this area.


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