# Vegetarian craving meat



## neoclassical (Sep 28, 2011)

In addition to recently wanting to constantly eat, I now have a craving for meat to be reintroduced into my diet. I went vegetarian since 1995ish for ethical/religious/health reasons, and started having this issue about a year ago. I started eating sushi and that helped kinda, but today I had 2 kosher hot dogs my kids left. What's going on here? I don't want to eat it but I feel compelled to in a way like I need it.


----------



## Sicarius (Sep 28, 2011)

Your body knows what it wants.

Feed it all the cow it wants.

Do it. Your body will love you for it later.


----------



## Ibanezsam4 (Sep 28, 2011)

a man was stranded on the ocean, he caught fish so he could eat, but strangely found he was craving the eyes of the fish.. turns out fish eyes are high in vitamin E, which he was deficient in. 

Basically were omnivores; if we have a good balanced diet we eat pretty much everything in one day. If you are craving something (like in this instance meat) go and eat it. just avoid the fast food lol if you want cow go the next step and treat yourself to bison.


----------



## Sicarius (Sep 28, 2011)

Beefalo.

Do that instead. Best of both worlds.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 28, 2011)

I think your body naturally wants these things. You made a conscious decision to not do it. Just like people who choose to abstain from having sex never stop having the urges. They simply consciously decide they aren't going to do it. Will power plays an important role, good sir.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Sep 28, 2011)

Listen to your body- it knows better than you do.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 28, 2011)

Are you still eating animal produce? (Stupid question, but still) You may be low in iron or B12, or some other nutrient.

If you want a substitute, Quorn is great imo.

@ All the "do as your body says", I am currently massively craving salted chocolate, so should I eat as much as I can? Please say yes


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 28, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> Are you still eating animal produce? (Stupid question, but still) You may be low in iron or B12, or some other nutrient.
> 
> If you want a substitute, Quorn is great imo.
> 
> @ All the "do as your body says", I am currently massively craving salted chocolate, so should I eat as much as I can? Please say yes


 
Chocolate covered pretzels ftw.


----------



## neoclassical (Sep 28, 2011)

I feel really bad about it though. Made a typo in OP I've been a vegetarian since 1995ish.


----------



## Sicarius (Sep 28, 2011)

No need to feel guilt/bad. They want you to eat them.

Why else would they be so tasty?


----------



## Sephael (Sep 28, 2011)

eat free range chicken and try to buy local beef so your moral issues are not completely ignored.


----------



## Guitarmiester (Sep 28, 2011)

I know a few vegetarians who buy fake chicken and bacon, which makes absolutely no sense to me.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 28, 2011)

Guitarmiester said:


> I know a few vegetarians who buy fake chicken and bacon, which makes absolutely no sense to me.


 
Yea no shit, right? But I have heard there are certain sects of Vegetarianism that allow you to eat certain animals. Again... Makes no sense.  

Maybe they repent and do hail Mary's like the Catholics.


----------



## Ckackley (Sep 28, 2011)

I'll agree with everyone here. You're body knows .. Meat is essential in our diet. There's ethical ways to go about it. Personally I work part time on a farm and get all of my beef and pork from them. Lean beef and lean pork in moderation is as healthy as anything else. As far as ethics and morals, I can totally understand that. However, if I was lost wandering the woods I don't think a bear or other wild animal would find any remorse in eating me. The animals around the woods would make sure none of me was wasted, however. THAT is the key for me.


----------



## synrgy (Sep 28, 2011)

As so many have already pointed out, human beings are omnivores. We can't just simply decide to ignore thousands of years of evolution and simultaneously expect to maintain good health. This is why I've never understood vegetarianism. From what we know of our biology to-date, it defies our nature _and_ our physical composition.

You're craving meat because your body wants the various proteins/vitamins/minerals/etc that come with it. Like Konfyouzd said, it ultimately boils down to a question of will vs nature.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 28, 2011)

Well, the fake stuff is there so that people who are vegetarian for moral reasons can still enjoy a similar product, but without the ethical problems.

I am not sure that meat is essential for the diet if you are still eating other animal produce... I know that iron and B12 are found only in animal produce which is why vegans have problems, but I think you are able to sustain a vegetarian diet for a long time without health problems.

It is understandable that you crave them, but you don't need to feel bad. I crave food most of the day and I crave many, many guitars - I don't buy guitars or eat the massive amount of food I desire. Free range/organic/local meat is good, and I think eating meat rarely from such sources has little ethical problems. However, if you think that eating another living animal is wrong, eating the most "ethical" meat is still going to be going against your beliefs.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 28, 2011)

You can survive fine sometimes even healthier on a meatless diet, however if you feel like you're missing something it might be worth seeing a dietitian to assess what you need. It may be that your current diet may need sorting out. You can find all the minerals and whatnot that you get in meats in other foods, it's just a matter of working out what you need (This is mostly aimed at everyone other than the OP, as being a vegetarian for so long you probably know this).

There is also the chance that it is a purely psychological thing; you may simply miss meat. If so, then seek out sustainable, free-range sources and you don't jeopardise your moral choice. I would stick away from fish really, as we're currently completely destroying our fish stocks because demand is so high, so unless they're from farms or fish sticks/fingers (Mostly made from scrap fish meat anyway) then avoid fish. I'm currently thinking about removing fish from my diet for this reason. I don't think I could stop eating meat though.


----------



## thraxil (Sep 28, 2011)

See a dietitian and/or your doctor. If you haven't made any other lifestyle or diet changes recently that might explain it, the sudden appearance of strong cravings could be an indication of some underlying medical issue.


----------



## Bevo (Sep 28, 2011)

I have been a full Veggie for almost all my life and completly understand what your going through. Its kinda like wanting an amazing guitar then getting it and its like..7 strings and a different color... then wondering what the hell you were thinking with the buyers remorse.

I eat the fake stuff and have no problem with it, I love the veggie ham but it does not taste like ham yet makes a good sandwhich. If you use it to supplement then why not, if its all you eat then its wrong. They have lots of good Veggie style meat stuff out there so why not?
It is proccessed to much and does not taste like the real thing but we need options.

With that out out of the way the guys are right, you may need or simply crave something which is normal, I would and have gone with it. A few weeks ago I was craving chicken like crazy. I ate a bit of chicken BBQ, Lunch meat, Rotisserie and all of it was ok but nothing special.
Since then I have not wanted anything or have had it.

My suggestion is to give in but have small amounts, keep your reason for not eating meat in mind and give it some thought after.
Also it would be a good time to look at your diet to see if your missing something. When I was craving meat I had increased my running to over 100K a week and was lacking in protien. I ate some more of it and the craving went away.

Keep your morals and reasons but do what you have to do, if its temporary then so be it. If you need to eat meat you will need to deal with the mental part which is harder for me.
End of the day don't feel bad about anything, go with the flow because it may just be a bump in the road.

Sorry for the long post but I do understand what your going through.
Feel free to PM if you want to chat!


----------



## Sephael (Sep 28, 2011)

Guitarmiester said:


> I know a few vegetarians who buy fake chicken and bacon, which makes absolutely no sense to me.


If they do it for diet or moral reasons and it has no meat byproducts then how does it not make sense? I know of very few vegetarians who that way only because they don't like the taste of meat.


----------



## Mordacain (Sep 28, 2011)

Guitarmiester said:


> I know a few vegetarians who buy fake chicken and bacon, which makes absolutely no sense to me.



The faux meats allow you to cook the same recipes but just substitue meatless versions of things you're used to. Its a good way to transition to vegetarianism or to get by during Lent if you are a good practicing Christian 

They're also good to just keep around since they last for many months in a freezer and can be cooked much faster than meat. So its a good lazy food that isn't absolutely terrible for you. 

I actually prefer making Spaghetti and Tacos with veggie Crumbles now, even though I've not gone back to being a vegetarian I still keep several packs in the freezer.


----------



## Mordacain (Sep 28, 2011)

A purely vegetarian diet, if properly balanced is actually much healthier than any other diet. The main problem with being a vegetarian is making sure you are getting all of your vitamins in the correct portions and in forms that are easily processed by our body.

That being said, urges happen and that's because humans, while we might have started out as herbivores, have evolved as omnivores and are psychologically and physically dependent on a certain amount of fat and cholesterol that you just don't get from vegetables. 

I say give in to the urges. The important thing is that you have a healthy diet. Be sensible with it and eat small portions. You still won't be eating as much meat as the fat-bastards I see around here who eat nothing but meat and starches (the McDonald's Diet). Do be careful about beef. Since you haven't eaten it in a long time you won't have the enzymes in your stomach to process that crap and it will fly through your digestive track if you eat too much of it (does for me at least). I can eat small amounts of beef (1-2 oz) with no problems.


----------



## ry_z (Sep 28, 2011)

synrgy said:


> As so many have already pointed out, human beings are omnivores. We can't just simply decide to ignore thousands of years of evolution and simultaneously expect to maintain good health.



Point A: Being omnivores simply means that we're evolved to be able to eat whatever was available. 

Point B: You do realize that the person who coined the term 'vegan' (who was a vegetarian from his teens and a vegan from his thirties) lived to the age of 95, and was healthy to the end? 

A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet *can* be healthy. This is simply a fact.


----------



## Pooluke41 (Sep 28, 2011)

ry_z said:


> A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet *can* be healthy. This is simply a fact.




And Likewise with eating meat. That can also be healthy, 

(and tastier.)


----------



## Mordacain (Sep 28, 2011)

Pooluke41 said:


> And Likewise with eating meat. That can also be healthy,
> 
> (and tastier.)



Different strokes. I've eaten plenty full vegan meals that were tastier than anything I've ever eaten. To be honest, I would be vegan right now if I didn't have to make everything from frikkin scratch.

Literally my only two problems with being vegan: takes too much time out of your schedule, and organic produce costs so much more.

I'd still have the occasional desire for meat, sure, but its certainly not essential to eat it and be healthy.

Most dieticians would agree a properly balanced vegetarian diet will be healthier than any diet that contains (or especially focuses on) meat. The reason it's not recommended more is because it's more difficult for your average person to plan and stick to a balanced vegetarian diet than to eat fewer, leaner meats as part of a well-balanced omnivorous diet.


----------



## Explorer (Sep 28, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> @ All the "do as your body says", I am currently massively craving salted chocolate, so should I eat as much as I can? Please say yes



There are some foods which have fat. Our bodies are set up to crave fat, as it's a highly energy-dense food, and under normal circumstances before factory farming it was harder to come by.

You're comparing something which someone *never* eats with something which the body would crave for different reasons. 

Funny... two nights ago, I wanted broccoli in the worst way, and wound up lightly steaming and then eating two pounds in one sitting. I've have eaten more, but it was all gone. *laugh*

And, of course, sometimes certain vitamin and mineral supplements will smell like candy to me, and will make my mouth water. When I open a bottle of iron supplements and my mouth starts watering from the smell, I'm pretty sure there's something there which isn't associated with a big flavor boost from a tiny pill I just swallow without tasting it. *laugh*

And tonight, I craved salmon, and ate a pound and half, along with four salmon oil caplets. Who am I to argue with a craving?


----------



## Explorer (Sep 28, 2011)

Amen to the fact that any well balanced diet can be healthy.

My friends who are nutritionists (yup, the full college degree and all) all acknowledge that it takes more work to do the balanced diet when eating vegetarian, and even more work to be fully vegan. It's always interesting to hear them talk about how land efficient it is to have an omnivore diet, as certain land can't be cultivated, but can support cows and other livestock, and eating full vegan requires practices which are less sustainable. 

----

Was the assertion made that humans *can* eat an omnivore's diet, but only through necessity, and that we should instead be vegan/vegetarian? I hope I'm mistaken, but arguing for more unsustainable factory farming due to moral grounds seems like an odd tack to take....


----------



## Mordacain (Sep 28, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Was the assertion made that humans *can* eat an omnivore's diet, but only through necessity, and that we should instead be vegan/vegetarian? I hope I'm mistaken, but arguing for more unsustainable factory farming due to moral grounds seems like an odd tack to take....



I might have inadvertently made that assertion, it was unintentional I assure you. I merely meant that based on the digestive tract length, maxillary muscles and the structure and array of teeth it has been posited by anthropologists that our oldest ancestors, Australopithecines were primarily herbivores, which fits with the homo sapiens hunter / gatherer tradition.


----------



## renzoip (Sep 29, 2011)

Hey OP! I've been a vegetarian since 2005, so I understand how you feel. Many of my friends have been long time vegetarian (for different reasons) for much longer and some have gone trough similar issues about craving meat. I find it a bit odd that after being a vegetarian for so many years, and for ethical reason, you are now craving meat. I can imagine why this must be such an issue to you as oppose to most people who will simply say "eat all the animals you want whenever you want."

My suggestion, as a fellow vegetarian, would be not to give in and to try to find another alternative/better approach to vegetarianism. Objectively, I say take some time to think about your craving, try to find out why is it that you are craving meat; perhaps you just stopped eating meat but did not really mentally detached yourself from it, that could be an issue. Finally, try it in small amounts and see if the satisfaction that you get from eating meat surpasses the satisfaction that you get from not eating it. After all, being vegetarian is not something you do to torture yourself, its something you do cause it makes you feel good. 

Good luck!


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 29, 2011)

Mordacain said:


> Most dieticians would agree a properly balanced vegetarian diet will be healthier than any diet that contains (or especially focuses on) meat. The reason it's not recommended more is because it's more difficult for your average person to plan and stick to a balanced vegetarian diet than to eat fewer, leaner meats as part of a well-balanced omnivorous diet.



Weeell, there is the problem of iron deficiency in women, as they lose blood ugh and so lose iron, so it needs to be replaced. I think this is found in higher quantities in meat that any other thing. Same goes for B12. Also, the high protein value of meat makes it useful, if you need the protein...

I would say that a predominantly vegetarian diet, with the occasional meat (once or twice a week) is best for you. You need to counter the high saturated fat content of most meat with the vitamins and high protein content. Meat is also a good source of calories, which isn't an issue now but when food wasn't so available, could be very important.

But I agree with you, I was just commenting


----------



## Bevo (Sep 29, 2011)

I agree the Veggie Vegan diet is much harder to maintain than the meat eater but is worth it.
many Veggie only eat pasta and bread no vegatables or beans at all, these have a whole other set of issues.

Renziop does have a point which is counter to mine but I know what I did worked for me. You will have to work through both options.

Greatoliver, as a runner we sweat so much and we use "salt cravings" to balance our electrolyte levels. When we crave salt or it tastes really good (mostly by tasting your own sweat LOL) we need to add, if salt is bitter then we need more water.

One thing that is important and most veggies miss it is the essential oils, I use Udo's oil in a pill form, I take about 3-4 a day and it helps everything.
This oil is entirly plant based, if you mix it raw with some spices it makes for an amazing salad dressing.

Good luck and post your results!


----------



## Dvaienat (Sep 29, 2011)

Basically, you need to make this decision: Do you want to support the unneccessary killing of animals? Even being a vegetarian, you support the meat industry, but indirectly. This is one of the reasons I'd like to be a vegan, though unfortunately I can't due to a food intolerance. 

You need to decide what you crave the most - compassion for animals or satisfying your stomach. I haven't eaten meat since being about 6 years old, when I began to understand where meat came from. Have never craved it either. 

I notice in this thread people say meat is 'essential' in our diet. This is completely false. People can live on a vegetarian/vegan diet and be _healthier_ than those who eat meat, because they aren't clogging their body with fat. All the vitamins/protiens in meat can be found elswhere.


----------



## SenorDingDong (Sep 29, 2011)

For everyone saying how great meat is for you, read the China Study please 


Cravings happen; it's natural. However, they don't necessarily tell us our bodies needs. Quite the opposite, in fact, as they usually coincide to what our mind _thinks_ we want. 

I've been vegan for years, and I've never had meat cravings. Of course, I never was a big meat eater to begin with, but that isn't the point.

For all of the people who think we are omnivores, they are sadly mistaken; humans started out as foragers, then _became_ scavengers. This meant we took whatever scraps we could get. 
Eventually, we took to hunting. 
We _did not_ begin as hunters; we were merely scavengers, timidly taking leftover scraps from hunting animals. 
The only reason we _developed_ canines is because we _started_ eating meat. If you look back at teeth fossils, early humans had the teeth of *herbivores*. 

Over the centuries our teeth have _adapted_ to fit our _choices_, which are in fact much different from what we were designed for. 

Now that we have that all cleared up, as it seems everyone likes to talk but do absolutely no research, I will say one thing; Our bodies relate to past behaviors and habits no matter how much time has passed since. 

The fact that you once ate meat is ingrained upon your being, just as smokers (speaking as an ex of four years) will always have in inbred craving. 

It's natural, but don't let it derail you.

The worst thing you can do, though, is buy those fake meet products as they help you to keep the taste of meat alive in your diet, pushing your habitual cravings. 

Implement more tofu, beans and legumes, raw nuts, and spinach into your diet to take place of any fake meat products. You will notice your cravings rapidly diminishing.


----------



## Ibanezsam4 (Sep 29, 2011)

Jstring said:


> For everyone saying how great meat is for you, read the China Study please
> 
> 
> Cravings happen; it's natural. However, they don't necessarily tell us our bodies needs. Quite the opposite, in fact, as they usually coincide to what our mind _thinks_ we want.
> ...



but you gloss over the fact that those early teeth of are 100s of thousands of years ago (and that earlier ancestors were probably also omnivorous) that the human diet has already evolved to accept meat as a ready source of protein. hell give any other explanation to the appendix beyond eating meat. the primary reason that teeth have changed is because the means of obtaining meat have gotten easier, prior to our known history as organized tribesman, hunting was a tad too inconvenient, hence why we relied on more roots than meat. once group hunting and tools were used, the percentage of meat to plants changed. 

milk and grains however are a completely different story.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

Ibanezsam4 said:


> hell give any other explanation to the appendix beyond eating meat.


 


Although we're starting to not need that anymore. But I think that has more to do with the fact that we now COOK meat.


----------



## synrgy (Sep 29, 2011)

ry_z said:


> Point A: Being omnivores simply means that we're evolved to be able to eat whatever was available.
> 
> Point B: You do realize that the person who coined the term 'vegan' (who was a vegetarian from his teens and a vegan from his thirties) lived to the age of 95, and was healthy to the end?
> 
> A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet *can* be healthy. This is simply a fact.



My response to that is that, quite simply, no two people are exactly the same. There was a guy in New York City who lived to be more than 100 years old, and since he was roughly 80-something his _entire diet_ consisted of bread fried in fatback and approximately 1 case of Thunderbird wine per week. Until he died, he was the oldest man in the city.

Point being that yes, I agree that some people can get by on a vegetarian or vegan diet, but to assert that it can work for _everyone_ is not factual at all. It's the same principle that leads to the fact that two people can take the same medication for the same symptoms and only one of them will see any relief.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

^ Precisely... There's record of people smoking EVERY day of their lives and living to be 90+ years old cancer free. It's a well known fact that smoking is NOT good for you.


----------



## Leon (Sep 29, 2011)

Mordacain said:


> A purely vegetarian diet, if properly balanced is actually much healthier than any other diet. The main problem with being a vegetarian is making sure you are getting all of your vitamins in the correct portions and in forms that are easily processed by our body.



False. Bodily tissues, organs, and such all eat fat, so that is primarily what we need. And not chemically prepared fats and oils from corn and other vegetables, but from more natural sources, like the bodily tissues of other animals.

It's more archaeology than health science.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 29, 2011)

Leon said:


> False. Bodily tissues, organs, and such all eat fat, so that is primarily what we need. And not chemically prepared fats and oils from corn and other vegetables, but from more natural sources, like the bodily tissues of other animals.
> 
> It's more archaeology than health science.



Really?

What do you mean by eat fat? Fats are broken down into glycerol and fatty acids in the body. Beta oxidation can be used to make fat into energy, which most of our body can use. Fats are needed in structures like the phospholipid bimembrane around cells (note, we also need cholesterol for this purpose too) but I don't really know what you mean by "eat".

You also seem to have ignored the natural sources of fat found within some fruit, nuts and seeds. Olive oil is the "best" fat you can have as it's monounsaturated, rapeseed oil is also good. Peanuts are high in monounsaturates too. The fat you need can easily be gained from eating nuts and eating olive oil. The fat in meat is not good for you in comparison and should be avoided - it is high in saturates which increase the risk of cardiovascular disease. Using the requirement of fats is really not a good argument for eating meat.


RE Chinese diet, I thought there was a high level of stomach cancer within China, because of their diet? I know there is something to do with increased levels of cancer with some Eastern diet, it may be Japanese however. Interestingly, as China has become more rich, the average diet has got worse as they can afford more expensive food, i.e. meat and high calorie foods, so I believe that obesity is increasing significantly.

The best diet to look at is the Mediterranean diet. For some reason, people who live on it have a very low risk of cardiovascular disease and it is known to be healthy - there still is the ability to become obese however.

EDIT: To reply to the post below without seeming too keen, my point on the obesity with the med. diet was just as a counterpoint to the benefits of a particular diet.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

There's always the ability to become obese no matter what you eat. That point is moot. Plus it pretty much goes w/o saying that as a country gets richer they have the potential to get fatter. It won't necessarily happen but it is more likely at that point. Size is a sign of wealth in some places still... 

Oh yea... And incisors and bicuspids seem like overkill for plants...


----------



## ry_z (Sep 29, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Oh yea... And incisors and bicuspids seem like overkill for plants...



And flat molars don't seem particularly useful for meat. As I pointed out before, humans evolved to eat whatever was handy.

Also, for essentially all of human evolution (up until the last 10,000 years or so), humans tended to die around 20-25 of malnutrition, starvation, or any number of horrible diseases, so looking to ancient humans for health tips isn't necessarily the best plan.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

Flat molars help you to chew meat once it's been cut by said incisors... Helps to prevent choking, you see.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 29, 2011)

We had this exact topic come up in a thread not too long ago. It got ugly.


----------



## Razzy (Sep 29, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> We had this exact topic come up in a thread not too long ago. It got ugly.



A certain someone is banned at the moment though, so I bet it stays pretty civil this time around.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 29, 2011)

Maybe.  At the end of the day, we're designed to be omnivores, because it's a more efficient way to live. Many animals we regard as herbivores will turn to meat in times of need. Neither diet is healthier than the other, if the diet is carefully planned. Too much of anything and too little of something can go either way. That said, vegans and vegetarians on average tend to be healthier as the lifestyle requires more discipline and control. Meals take more preparation and a wider range of ingredients to supplement a meatless diet. 

The only thing wrong with meat is A. sustainability and B. animal welfare. Sustainability is a growing issue especially with fish stocks which are rapidly running out. Animal welfare is an issue that is of growing concern, with heavy regulations being brought in the EU (The US still has a way to go in this area). Other than that, you're simply arguing the moral implications of eating an animal, which is stupid. It's completely subjective. No point wasting time on that argument.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 29, 2011)

We're also kind of arguing whether eating meat is necessary or not. People have claimed that we should because of incisors etc., or health benefits while others have said it isn't necessary.

I agree that the moral implications are all subjective, so it doesn't matter...


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 29, 2011)

If there is a healthy alternative (which there is) then meat isn't necessary. It's mostly a matter of choice.


----------



## Explorer (Sep 29, 2011)

Did someone actually say that humans evolved teeth to eat meat, but that humans as designed are supposed to be herbivores?  *laugh* Sounds like the design got revised, in the same way our ancestors had gills but developed lungs.

It's interesting to see sustainability raised regarding animals. I had already commented on how animals can be raised on land which isn't suitable for crop growth, and thereby contribute protein which otherwise would be inaccessible.

I mentioned before, and must mention again, that not including animals in the cycle of land use is less sustainable than including them. Letting farmland be used as pasture for cattle, for example, allows animal manure to fertilize the land, with that fertilizer being driven into the soil due to the animals' hooves. Othewise, you have to bring in fertilizer, and have added petrochemical usage on top of the artificial fertilizers made by the military industrial complex. 

Yes, factory farming is unsustainable, but a lot of people want to divide sustainable farming into two problems (animal farming and plant farming), with some wanting to eliminate one of the two problems so there's only one unsustainable portion (plant farming). Unsustainable agribusiness of this nature, in the name of veganism/vegetarianism, is not a good solution. 

If any of you have done research on sustainable closed systems for food development, you'll have found that the cycle relies on animals as well as plants. That's the way nature, and life on planet Earth, has developed and works. Monocultural farming (including purely plant-based farming) of any kind is unnatural and unsustainable.

Sorry if that was too wonky, but I currently work with sustainability issues, and am in the middle of these discussions quite a bit....


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 29, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Did someone actually say that humans evolved teeth to eat meat, but that humans as designed are supposed to be herbivores?  *laugh*



Who said that?


----------



## Ibanezsam4 (Sep 29, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Did someone actually say that humans evolved teeth to eat meat, but that humans as designed are supposed to be herbivores?  *laugh* Sounds like the design got revised, in the same way our ancestors had gills but developed lungs.
> 
> It's interesting to see sustainability raised regarding animals. I had already commented on how animals can be raised on land which isn't suitable for crop growth, and thereby contribute protein which otherwise would be inaccessible.
> 
> ...



thank you for the tooth part dude... im still shaking my head. and the rest of your point is brilliant and spot on


----------



## neoclassical (Sep 29, 2011)

I ate a bit of chicken today. I think I'm going to see a friend who is a dietician. I feel better after I have the meat, and have more energy too. THanks for the posts guys.


----------



## Mordacain (Sep 29, 2011)

neoclassical said:


> I ate a bit of chicken today. I think I'm going to see a friend who is a dietician. I feel better after I have the meat, and have more energy too. THanks for the posts guys.



Sounds like you were possibly running lean on Omega 6 and maybe protein. Omega 6 is an easy thing to overlook when vegetarian but very, very essential.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 30, 2011)

Yup, I agree on the sustainable side completely. Crop cycling is really good, and the use of legumes is really important. The thing about sustainable meat production is that you can get nowhere near the same level of yield of meat - it may be more efficient, but you cannot match the output of the factories. IMO that is fine, as meat should be viewed as a luxury, not an everyday food. Sustainable farming is generally more ethical as well, so that would reduce the welfare issues.

The problem is that it is fuelled by the consumers - people want to eat meat, so the farmers/companies produce a lot of meat. If the consumers began to eat less meat, and care more for welfare/sustainability, we may see a paradigm shift and a step towards something like cyclic farming. Note that I think milk production will also be reduced - cows produce milk when they are calving and have calves around them, so to give the current output of milk, you also have a lot of calves coming out of the system. This makes it hard to account for the number of animals... Interesting point, but even as a vegetarian drinking milk, you are supporting a system which has to kill the excess cows, as there is not enough space to support the extra animals. I think 

And yeah, goats on mountains and pigs in forests - definitely a good way of getting more from the land.


----------



## The Reverend (Sep 30, 2011)

Leave my fucking milk and steak alone. I don't give a flying fuck if some creature was killed horribly so I could eat it. Am I evil for that? Yeah, as evil as a snake injecting its prey with venom and waiting for it to die. Vegans and such seem to forgot that most animals die a painful death in the wild. Why aren't you up in arms about that? The large scale doesn't necessarily make each individual death more poignant, somehow. It sucks just as much as it would suck for that individual to break a leg and starve as it does to be sloppily shot in the back of the head. 

I have to wonder, is a well-balanced vegetarian diet better than a well-balanced diet with meat? And if that were the case, wouldn't we all be much more inclined to eat veggies due to natural selection? Only the veggie-lovers lived long enough to reproduce, etc etc. It seems to me that humans evolved to eat both groups, and that to function well, they would need to continue that. As Ross said somewhere earlier, too much of anything is always a bad thing. Certainly I'm not advocating you go crazy and eat ten pounds of beef a day, but I'm sure as fuck I could become insanely unhealthy if I only ate ten pounds of pinto beans a day.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 30, 2011)

We do have a higher sense of morality and understanding compared to animals though, s we are better able to judge the consequences of our actions against other beings. Predators care only for themselves and sometimes their offspring.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 30, 2011)

What's morality have to do with it? You're hungry and your species has been known to eat other animals. So you eat em. Given the chance there are many animals that would gladly eat us and not think twice. I suppose this is where the morality argument comes into play but such is the way of the animal kingdom--at least among the ones that eat meat. 

It's not quite the same as going out and killing them just for the feeling of killing something. Hell half the time I'm not even he one killing it so it can't be that, but I suppose the logical argument there is that I condone the killing of these animals by continuing to consume them. Meh... I dont lose any sleep over eating chickens, cows, pigs or whatever other tastey animal happens to meander my way. We're all part of the circle of life.


----------



## Explorer (Sep 30, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> The thing about sustainable meat production is that you can get nowhere near the same level of yield of meat - it may be more efficient, but you cannot match the output of the factories. IMO that is fine, as meat should be viewed as a luxury, not an everyday food.


 
I'm an omnivore, but I agree with this. I don't eat meat every day, even though I have no qualms about meat and am capable of butchering large animals. (Incidentally, when this came up recently at work, one of my female coworkers said that people who can butcher an animal are scary, because they could do the same to a human being. Wut? It hadn't even occurred to me, and normally I'll go there to be funny.) Anyway, the point is that I get enough protein most of the time, but have more success absorbing iron if I'm also intaking heme iron (iron from animal sources). Having run into health problems due to my system not acting well on non-heme sources, I sympathize with those who want to eliminate meat but who can't due to physical reasons.



The Reverend said:


> I have to wonder, is a well-balanced vegetarian diet better than a well-balanced diet with meat? And if that were the case, wouldn't we all be much more inclined to eat veggies due to natural selection? Only the veggie-lovers lived long enough to reproduce, etc etc. It seems to me that humans evolved to eat both groups, and that to function well, they would need to continue that. As Ross said somewhere earlier, too much of anything is always a bad thing.


 
Well... we also crave salt, fat and sugar, things which are much rarer in the environment as you move back into deep time/history. We can crave Oreos due to that inclination, but that's because a healthy impulse (load up on calories when you can, because you don't know when you'll next have the chance!) is being placed in an environment where calories are relatively easy to find/consume.

It is definitely easier to consume a balanced diet if one allows *all* sources of food to be considered. There's not only the larger nutrients of which most people are aware, but also micronutrients which aren't easily available in a supplement. 



vampiregenocide said:


> We do have a higher sense of morality and understanding compared to animals though, s we are better able to judge the consequences of our actions against other beings. Predators care only for themselves and sometimes their offspring.


 
Having watched how people react to endangered species being protected, and to land being set aside to protect those species at the expense of traditional jobs like logging, I would argue against extending *understanding* how our actions affect other beings, and *caring* about the same.


----------



## Dvaienat (Sep 30, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> Leave my fucking milk and steak alone. I don't give a flying fuck if some creature was killed horribly so I could eat it. Am I evil for that? Yeah, as evil as a snake injecting its prey with venom and waiting for it to die. Vegans and such seem to forgot that most animals die a painful death in the wild. Why aren't you up in arms about that? The large scale doesn't necessarily make each individual death more poignant, somehow. It sucks just as much as it would suck for that individual to break a leg and starve as it does to be sloppily shot in the back of the head.


 
This is a rather common mentality amongst meat-eaters that I often see displayed on forums. The snake which has injected its venom and waits for the prey to die does not have moral consciousness, nor does any non-human animal which kills for food. I'm not up in arms about what the snake does because the snake doesn't have the capability to do any better. The difference is that as humans we have the capability to comprehend that we do not have to treat animals this way. I have no problems with meat consumers provided they care about how animals are treated and killed, and from what I've observed most do. But for humans to butcher animals in such a savage way is morally wrong.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 30, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> What's morality have to do with it? You're hungry and your species has been known to eat other animals. So you eat em. Given the chance there are many animals that would gladly eat us and not think twice. I suppose this is where the morality argument comes into play but such is the way of the animal kingdom--at least among the ones that eat meat.
> 
> It's not quite the same as going out and killing them just for the feeling of killing something. Hell half the time I'm not even he one killing it so it can't be that, but I suppose the logical argument there is that I condone the killing of these animals by continuing to consume them. Meh... I dont lose any sleep over eating chickens, cows, pigs or whatever other tastey animal happens to meander my way. We're all part of the circle of life.



Aye but we're also very different from all other animals that exist, and it's important to reflect on what sort of responsibilities if any our deeper under understanding puts on us.



Explorer said:


> Having watched how people react to endangered species being protected, and land being set aside to protect them, I would argue against extending *understanding* how our actions affect other beings, and *caring* about the same.



Can you expand on this? I'm not quite following you.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 30, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> We do have a higher sense of morality and understanding compared to animals though, s we are better able to judge the consequences of our actions against other beings. Predators care only for themselves and sometimes their offspring.



(Was totally confused by the change in profile picture)

I second this. The "circle of life" argument doesn't really work, as what stops us from doing it to other humans? Why don't I just go out and kick some animals around, just because I want to? It's completely ignoring the morality that humans have, in my opinion. To most people, there is right, there is wrong. Really, this comes down to whether you think that mistreating animals is wrong or right. Certainly, if I see someone torturing an animal, I feel it is morally wrong.

So, for me, the "fuck animals" approach doesn't cut it. If you don't feel anything at all for animals, then go ahead. However, it is one thing to feel nothing, and another to be ignorant of where the meat it coming from.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Sep 30, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> (
> I second this. The "circle of life" argument doesn't really work, as what stops us from doing it to other humans?


 
Jail time... 

And even that doesn't stop some of us... Dahmer comes to mind... 

I'm pretty sure he isn't the only one. There are other human cultures that have been known to be cannibalistic as well.

We dont have some huge responsibility to the world. We just think we do bc we're the only animal that can deem ourselves smarter than all the other ones.


----------



## highlordmugfug (Sep 30, 2011)

The way this thread is going and every thread like it where vegetarianism is mentioned is retarded, it isn't going anywhere, it makes a lot of people look like assholes, and it's remarkably unproductive.


Is it possible to survive healthily without any animal products? Sure is. 
Is it possible to survive healthily with animal products? Sure is.

Anything else is just fluff, opinions, and getting down to very very specific things.






OP: best of luck in feeling better, but if you feel strongly about vegetarianism and aren't sure if you want to change your diet or not, just know that there are things you can look into before you decide to switch back to an omnivorous diet.





TL;DR I don't give a fuck what you eat, shut up and try to help the OP.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 30, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> We dont have some huge responsibility to the world. We just think we do bc we're the only animal that can deem ourselves smarter than all the other ones.



I wouldn't go that far. We've become the dominant species of this planet and thrown off the oppressive shackles of nature. As a result, we have to consciously think about what effects we are having on the world. We owe it to ourselves to be careful or we'll only suffer. We are still connected to the earth and we have to respect that connection. Animals do it naturally, because they're more a part of nature than us. We have to think more, because we were given that gift.


----------



## IB-studjent- (Sep 30, 2011)

eat some chicken liver, that always makes me hate anything related to chicken or beef. CHICKEN LIVER.......ewwww


----------



## mountainjam (Sep 30, 2011)

Ive been vegetrian my entire life, and I've never felt an urge to eat meat, and I never have. I completely dissagree with saying "your body knows best what it wants". In example, if a cigarette smoker breaks the habbit and stays clean the rest of his life, they might always still have the urge to to smoke again to some degree, because the feeling of doing it will always be somewhere in their mind. My argument works for all forms of addiction. Now I wont say its impossible to break an addiction completely, Im just saying the experience of eating meat is just something you never got completely over


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 30, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Jail time...
> 
> And even that doesn't stop some of us... Dahmer comes to mind...
> 
> ...



I meant more like, what stops us abusing other humans? If you have no regard for animals, what is the difference between animals and humans? By the fact there is jail time, it means that someone has deemed it as a bad thing in some respect, so some people must believe animal welfare is a moral issue.

While we don't have any responsibility at all, it doesn't mean that we should just treat it like it has no worth. I have no responsibility to not trip children up, as I have morality which deems things good and bad. I personally don't like the idea of animals being kept it terrible conditions so I can eat them - I put moral value in animal welfare.

@highlordmugfug - While we're off topic, everything has pretty much been said about craving. Some people said listen to your body, and others have said that your body is not always right. That's it really, so having a discussion about a directly related topic should hopefully not be too distressing


----------



## The Reverend (Sep 30, 2011)

It's interesting that morals are being mentioned, given their likely evolution.

I honestly don't put much value in morals of this sort. I care about the environment, and the continuation of species on the earth, but only because I get something out of it. The suffering of a chicken? Not at all. 

I don't like how we can, on one hand, be called part of nature, and not be allowed to savage the bodies of lesser animals, and then on the other hand feel like in following that nature we're being unnaturally cruel. As far as I know, slaughterhouses aren't torturing the animals. I think they're raising and killing them in the most efficient manner, which generally how other animals on earth kill their prey (minus the raising, in most cases). 

If you want to speak about the situation ethically, how do you get around the fact that you want to spoil an animal, just to kill it? Doesn't that strike you as wrong, somewhere? Should I treat my pigs like dogs, only to swiftly execute them one fine Sunday morning? Isn't there a sort of betrayal of the animals' trust if you do it like that? There seems to be something twisted, almost sadistic in that. I can see some Iowa cattle rancher hand-feeding a calf the most delightful foods, the only clue to his future intent being an evil gleam in his eye and the occasional use of 'veal' instead of 'meal'.


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 30, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> It's interesting that morals are being mentioned, given their likely evolution.
> 
> I honestly don't put much value in morals of this sort. I care about the environment, and the continuation of species on the earth, but only because I get something out of it. The suffering of a chicken? Not at all.
> 
> I don't like how we can, on one hand, be called part of nature, and not be allowed to savage the bodies of lesser animals, and then on the other hand feel like in following that nature we're being unnaturally cruel. As far as I know, slaughterhouses aren't torturing the animals. I think they're raising and killing them in the most efficient manner, which generally how other animals on earth kill their prey (minus the raising, in most cases).



I would say we're not part of nature... Kind of. It really depends how clever some of the other animals are, and consciousness is a very confusing thing, but the fact that we have a choice (if we really do) separates us. I don't think there can be good and bad to something that has no choice, so for most animals, they can't be called evil or good - they are just themselves. That being said, I do attribute human emotions to animals, and I do empathise with animals, which I admit is a flaw. I also view pain as nearly always being bad, unless some good comes from it. So the idea of a chicken suffering to me is not nice. I don't know whether it really "feels" the pain in the same way we do, but I still _feel _like it is bad.

I am a meat eater, and I am being pretty hypocritical with many of my arguments, as I don't always eat fairtrade, organic, freerange local meat. I am also ignorant of where my food comes from, and I am probably supporting industries that I would deem bad if I bothered to pay attention. I think that is a fault of myself and of the human race; we all live in our own worlds and the larger picture is often sacrificed for our own happiness.




> If you want to speak about the situation ethically, how do you get around the fact that you want to spoil an animal, just to kill it? Doesn't that strike you as wrong, somewhere? Should I treat my pigs like dogs, only to swiftly execute them one fine Sunday morning? Isn't there a sort of betrayal of the animals' trust if you do it like that? There seems to be something twisted, almost sadistic in that. I can see some Iowa cattle rancher hand-feeding a calf the most delightful foods, the only clue to his future intent being an evil gleam in his eye and the occasional use of 'veal' instead of 'meal'.



This sounds a bit like "Never Let Me Go" in some respects...

That is a good point, but I would personally want the best life I could if I knew I was going to die. I would argue that animals can't be "spoilt" however, as I think once an animal has a life without pain, that is the best it can get; having enough food to survive and barns full of food will make no difference to it (Kind of an idea from "The Life of Pi", animals like zoos....). Coming from someone who believes in animal welfare, there are things that I think are bad, and some I think is unnecessary. I think you are applying too much human emotion to the situation; betrayal is a higher cognitive level emotion (imo) and I think most animals are unable to feel it, certainly the ones we would consider eating.http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/members/highlordmugfug.html


----------



## Ill-Gotten James (Sep 30, 2011)

You should try eating some crispy bacon, you'll be back to being a carnivore in no time. Give in to what your body is craving.


----------



## Sicarius (Sep 30, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> Ive been vegetrian my entire life, and I've never felt an urge to eat meat, and I never have. I completely dissagree with saying "your body knows best what it wants". In example, if a cigarette smoker breaks the habbit and stays clean the rest of his life, they might always still have the urge to to smoke again to some degree, because the feeling of doing it will always be somewhere in their mind. My argument works for all forms of addiction. Now I wont say its impossible to break an addiction completely, Im just saying the experience of eating meat is just something you never got completely over


There's a huge difference between a cigarette and a piece of meat -_-


----------



## Greatoliver (Sep 30, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> There's a huge difference between a cigarette and a piece of meat -_-



His point still stands however - just because you want something, it doesn't necessarily mean that your body requires the nutrients from it/that you need it.


----------



## Explorer (Sep 30, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Can you expand on this? I'm not quite following you.


 
I can understand the negative outcomes of my actions, but might not care enough to do anything about it.

There is a nearby thread in the Lifestyle forum about how to lose weight, and the inabiliy on the part of many to stop eating less than one is taking in, leading to fat/weight problems. 

Oh, I see the problem!



explorer said:


> Having watched how people react to endangered species being protected, and *to *land being set aside to protect them, I would argue against extending *understanding* how our actions affect other beings, and *caring* about the same.


 
I omitted the second "to" regarding how loggers attempt to kill endangered owls when protection laws come into play. The confusion is entirely my fault, and I'll correct my previous post.

Thanks!


----------



## vampiregenocide (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm still not entirely following what you mean.  Maybe it's because its late and I'm not firing on all cylinders.


----------



## Bevo (Oct 1, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> There's a huge difference between a cigarette and a piece of meat -_-


 
Your right they are not even close but the desire to eat/smoke can be just as addiciting. I have been around my Portugues girls family when they have a religious holiday and they can't eat meat for a few Fridays.
They were all lost trying to think of meat they can sneak in or justify no different than a smoker trying to sneak in a couple puffs in the washroom.
The day after they actualy got out of bed stupid early just to have bacon!

Also lots of Veggies still crave meat like an ex smoker, thats why the fake meats are so popular. I still love the ham for that very reason.

I think this entire thread has gone off the rails, the OP was looking for help not an arugument over who has the biggest dick!


----------



## Ckackley (Oct 1, 2011)

This post is going to come off horrible , but this topic drives me nuts..... What follows is my opinion only.. 

Eating meat is not morally wrong.. Wasting IS. Natural predators don't kill more than they consume. Humans do that. I've seen people in restaurants throw away more than they eat. Also, who's to say animals have no morality. No one knows that for sure. 
Eating vegetables is just as destructive as eating meat. When you plow a field how many natural homes are destroyed ? I work part time on a farm. You plow a field and animals scatter out of homes they've lived in their whole lives. So YOU can eat your soyburger. I know when we raise cattle in an open field no animal habitat gets destroyed. The cattle wander fields which are home to a ton of other animals. If raised and killed ethically a meat animal won't even know what happened. 
See those stands of corn as you drive down the road? Corn is yummy.. Deer love it. Do you now that thousands of deer are killed and left to rot every year to protect field crops? That's not ethical. Pesticides and fertilizers spread on field crops kill thousands of more animals every year. All wasted. Not ethical. 
Vegetarians and even Vegans are not blameless in this. In order for ANY of us to live something has to die. It's the way things work. Taking a moral high ground with eating just plants isn't realistic. 
You want sustainable/ethical agriculture ? Limit population growth and get rid of a good chunk of the current population. Get back to small communities that are self sufficient. Anything more than that and we HAVE to use industrialized farming.


----------



## TheJokker (Oct 1, 2011)

not eating meat for ethical/religious/health reasons is insane. our eyes on not on the side of our heads; they are forward looking. we are designed to be a predator. killing and eating another animal is not immoral; to suggest otherwise is. native american people respect animals. they understand that some creatures must die so that other animals can live. other animals kill each other over territory, mates, and food. mother nature says: not immoral. survival of the fittest. 

most vegetarians don't eat healthier. it is much harder to get essential proteins from plants (i.e. another life form). it is much easier to suffer from mild malnutrition leading to decreased physical and metal performance. all in the name of "ethical/religious/health " reasons which disrespects all predators as immoral (i.e. lions, tigers, bears, eagles, etc.)? sounds crazy to me. sounds self-destructive. self-defeating. i think vegetarians are vegetarians for style points. you want to be better somehow but you have to pretend to be something youre not. thats not how to be superior. instead of rejecting your nature embrace it. its ok to eat a moderate amount of meat. its the most probable way of eating a healthy diet. 

predator or prey? i can see how this might be a tough choice for some people but i would rather play for the predator team. you might be happier being a prey. diversity is good


----------



## Bevo (Oct 1, 2011)

*not eating meat for ethical/religious/health reasons is insane*

You sir have no clue, you entire post is full statements even full on meat eater won't agree with.
The post above you makes valid statements and is respectfull, learn from it!!

*MOD EDIT: Please don't "fauxderate" topics. Use the report button. *


----------

