# Stainless steel frets



## TheInvisibleHand (Jan 13, 2021)

First: this isn't meant to be a hot take or some incendiary question.

But.....

When did guitarists start to judge the quality of any guitar by whether or not it has SS frets? With all the releases happening over the past few weeks I keep seeing the same reaction again and again:

"AMAZING LINEUP, but oh wait, no SS frets, garbage"

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't normal nickel frets last nearly 10 years with "normal" use? How many people even hold onto guitars long enough to need the longevity inherent to SS frets? I seriously don't understand, is there a tonal quality that SS frets bestow upon an instrument that I am missing? I've owned a plethora of guitars that have had them and many more that haven't, and apart from a little more "slipperiness", I wouldn't notice the difference.

Can someone explain to my dumbass what the fuss is about? I am legitimately confused.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 13, 2021)

Folks hate...HATE...performing maintenance on thier guitars, and if stainless steel frets can stave that off, it's a win. 

I have both, I see the benefits, but I'm not so ride or die about it like some folks.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2021)

I go back and forth on SS frets. I find most people typically aren't going to beat the hell out of nickel frets (or it'll take years). For the few people that do manage to grind down nickel frets regularly, I can understand the need for more durable material. 

Personally I like ss frets but they're not a deal breaker for me. I care more about the fret size than the material tbh.


----------



## MetalDaze (Jan 13, 2021)

Welcome to ss.org... home of "I would TOTALLY buy one it wasn't for ___________"


----------



## I play music (Jan 13, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but don't normal nickel frets last nearly 10 years with "normal" use?


I don't think so, need to polish them with every string change and need a fret level before 10 years. 
A stainless steel refret is almost 500€ here because expensive labor and stuff and techs have wait lists to get it done even. If it wouldn't be so damn expensive, it would be less important for me. 
But the way it is I won't buy guitars without stainless steel frets any more. Because lots of companies offer that now, I do not limit myself to much with that


----------



## cwhitey2 (Jan 13, 2021)

Heck, I have never even played a guitar with SS frets


----------



## Avedas (Jan 13, 2021)

I'll always pick SS over non-SS, but it's not strictly a dealbreaker. I'm happy to play a j.custom any day.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Jan 13, 2021)

For me, I have 2 guitars with SS frets and the rest without

There is definitely a big advantage though. They always stay shiny and slick, whereas nickel frets do get kinda "grimy" after a few months which you feel during bends. It also looks shitty when they're dull. Polishing them when changing strings is kinda annoying and time-consuming. 

As for tone, I can't say I notice a difference.

Not really a deal-breaker, and wouldn't stop me from buying something I liked, but SS is a nice advantage.


----------



## trem licking (Jan 13, 2021)

Not a deal breaker, but VERY nice upgrade. The guitars i desire are either rare or non-existent, so I can't afford to be picky. Max is right though, I'm one of those who HATE maintenance, so I'll take any route to avoid that. There's really not any good reason not to have them


----------



## odibrom (Jan 13, 2021)

I've done a refret to SS last year and am to go get the 2nd one within a few hours, leaving there a 3rd to refret.

I loved the polished feel of these frets (professionally done) and no further need to level/crown/polish is a BIG bonus, set and forget kind of thing. The refret price here is around 200€ for a 7 stringer with no neck binding.


----------



## Matt08642 (Jan 13, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> When did guitarists start to judge the quality of any guitar by whether or not it has SS frets?



Djent era sales pitches, I think.


----------



## groverj3 (Jan 13, 2021)

Love them for the feel and lack of maintenance. The first guitar I had with them was a custom shop Jackson I got 6 years ago. Haven't had to get the frets crowned once.

I liked it enough to have two others refretted with it.

I wouldn't stop myself from buying a guitar that didn't have them, but instead of getting a level and crown job once it was time I'd pay the extra for a stainless refret instead.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 13, 2021)

they so much better then regular frets.

and they are cheap enough now that there isn't really any reason not to offer them unless you are prs and just hate them for some reason. 

tried ss frets for the first time with my first Anderson like 8 years ago. will never go back.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 13, 2021)

It's not only a matter of changing the frets after 10 years. Or easier maintenance. It's even more a matter of having that smooth glassy feel on bends and vibratos, always, with nothing in the way.

You'd think it would be something that _most _people would relate to or at least understand the draw of (even though I understand people who _prefer _a bit of grit instead) ... but we live in a world where a lot of people actually set their Evertune so that the guitar is technically not even _capable _of vibrato or bend anymore anyway so I guess to each their own!


----------



## T00DEEPBLUE (Jan 13, 2021)

The big difference with SS is that they never tarnish, which means you'll never need to keep polishing them for the frets to feel good. It's nice to not play a guitar for a few months and to pick it up again and bends feel exactly the same as the last time you put the guitar down.

That by itself makes it worth kicking up a stink. Especially when the 2021 ESP E-II guitars don't get SS but the much cheaper LTD Deluxes do. Like WTF?


----------



## brandon7s (Jan 13, 2021)

I try to never buy non-SS fretted guitars these days after having bought my strandberg and loving the frets on it. The thought of never having to have fretwork done or having that nagging feeling of wondering if one of your frets has been worn down enough to cause extra buzzing... that peace of mind is huge.


----------



## I play music (Jan 13, 2021)

odibrom said:


> I've done a refret to SS last year and am to go get the 2nd one within a few hours, leaving there a 3rd to refret.
> 
> I loved the polished feel of these frets (professionally done) and no further need to level/crown/polish is a BIG bonus, set and forget kind of thing. The refret price here is around 200€ for a 7 stringer with no neck binding.


Wow, 200€ is a very good price for a SS refret. Could I get it for that price, I would probably buy more used stuff and just get it refretted. But the way it is here, it makes more sense for me to buy a new instrument that comes with them than buying used and paying 500€ for a SS refret ..


----------



## technomancer (Jan 13, 2021)

I like stainless frets but it is in no way a deal breaker for me, as evidenced by the PRS guitars I own. It is really not as big a deal as some make it out to be, and really is the latest in the "I'm looking for an excuse I can use to say why I won't buy this guitar" camp.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 13, 2021)

The beauty of stainless steel frets is that they play, feel and look the same as day 1 without ever needing maintenance. After several hundred hours I couldn't find a scratch on my Daemoness:






Same with my Carillion which now has way more hours. Never having to worry about routine polishing or frets oxidising from the air while they are permanently smooth with no drag is why their reputation is well deserved:





While 10 seconds of playing nickel will leave noticeable scratches. Think of it like having tyres that will never wear. You have them on your car for life and they have the same grip on day 1 as day 1000. 

Now this all depends on how the well they were installed. If they aren't expertly polished then you are left with rough areas that won't wear away with playing like nickel frets would. This is why I don't recommend them at all on cheaper guitars, your strings will wear away faster and if there's any drag it won't go away until you or a tech sands and polishes it out. 

Tone? Zero difference in my experience after having two guitars re-fretted. 

Now if they only made strings that never went dead.....


----------



## possumkiller (Jan 13, 2021)

Idk. I've never played a guitar with ss frets in my 23 years of playing. But I will never buy a new guitar without ss frets because they are just superior in every way.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 13, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> When did guitarists start to judge the quality of any guitar by whether or not it has SS frets?


Sometime in the mid 1990's.


TheInvisibleHand said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but don't normal nickel frets last nearly 10 years with "normal" use?


I guess. I've had some frets cause problems for me after just a few years of gigging with a guitar. If that guitar is my main tool or my source of income, then sending it to a shop for 4 weeks to get it refretted in the middle of a tour, when I could have not, is a pretty significant inconvenience.


TheInvisibleHand said:


> How many people even hold onto guitars long enough to need the longevity inherent to SS frets?


A fair portion. Not everyone flips their guitars constantly. I've used the same guitar as my main guitar for almost 15 years now, and I still have my main guitars from before that.


TheInvisibleHand said:


> I seriously don't understand, is there a tonal quality that SS frets bestow upon an instrument that I am missing?


I don't think I can really tell the difference. I supposed I'd have to do a side-by-side comparison to know for sure. SS frets might get associated with brighter sound, because brighter guitars tend to have them. Whether it's a cause or an unrelated effect of something else, who knows?

I personally prefer anything that is more durable and low-maintenance to anything that is more fragile and high-maintenance. I also used to use tons of pedals, and the more boutique-y ones tended to get beer or sometimes puke on them more often for whatever reason. Also 9V batteries are expensive and a pain to not forget to bring enough of. So, next time I didn't take any pedals. Too much maintenance. So, if you give me a guitar that wipes clean, is bulletproof, and doesn't require any weird cables or anything like that, you have a winner for me. I don't think I'm alone, in that regard.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron (Jan 13, 2021)

I think durability and less maintenance are the primary factors. I love SS fret, and will choose them over nickel-silver every time. That said, I ordered a Musikraft neck last spring with nickel frets because they don't offer super-jumbo in SS.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron (Jan 13, 2021)

...or HUMONGOUS FRETS!


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Jan 13, 2021)

If I have the option, I go SS. There's no reason not to, but I won't throw a fuss and not buy a guitar just because it doesn't have them.

I owned several Mayones before they made the effort to standardize SS Frets and those guitars were fantastic.

The material itself is superior, there is literally no loss or gain in tone (Tested this before and after refretting 3 guitars at this point with them). And if they last far longer there's definitely not reason not to go with that option if they are an option.

Also if you own more than 3 - 4 guitars and cycle through them regularly, you probably won't wear those frets if they are nickel in any reasonable amount of time. But yeah if you play for 10+ hours a week on one guitar, you'll probably need a level and crown within a year or two. How many of us actually play that much, and on a single nickel fretted guitar anyways?


----------



## Musiscience (Jan 13, 2021)

Since my first guitar with SS frets (Washburn CS WM526) I never really went back. They are smoother to bend on and are practically maintenance free once polished. I didn't notice a big tone difference with nickel. 

I'm not buying any new guitars without them, because if I'm spending my money, why not do it on something I know I really like? Especially in today's maket where so many options are available.


----------



## SpaceDock (Jan 13, 2021)

I won’t do a guitar without SS frets anymore because I use heavy gauges for standard tunings and really bend a lot. I had an ESP Mii that I bought new and wore grooves into the frets in 2 years. I have had four guitars that I sold after wearing down to the point where I didn’t like it. I really don’t want to refret a guitar so I just buy guitars with SS frets and none of them wear down now.


----------



## efiltsohg (Jan 13, 2021)

meh... after thousands of hours of playing, all my nickel frets look brand new too


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 13, 2021)

It's worth noting that not all "nickel" frets are equal. They are made by several different companies, of all several different alloys. I've played on plenty of not-that-old guitars with frets worn so bad it's almost like the fret isn't there. But also, I'm sure Dunlop and Jescar nickel frets are high-enough quality for the huge majority of folks as they seem to hold up pretty well.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 13, 2021)

spudmunkey said:


> It's worth noting that not all "nickel" frets are equal. They are made by several different companies, of all several different alloys. I've played on plenty of not-that-old guitars with frets worn so bad it's almost like the fret isn't there. But also, I'm sure Dunlop and Jescar nickel frets are high-enough quality for the huge majority of folks as they seem to hold up pretty well.



Maybe not all stainless steel is created equal either.
Extreme end of the spectrum for sure, but for example those new Harley Benton with "stainless steel frets" are not quite up there from the sound of it.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot (Jan 13, 2021)

spudmunkey said:


> It's worth noting that not all "nickel" frets are equal. They are made by several different companies, of all several different alloys. I've played on plenty of not-that-old guitars with frets worn so bad it's almost like the fret isn't there. But also, I'm sure Dunlop and Jescar nickel frets are high-enough quality for the huge majority of folks as they seem to hold up pretty well.





mbardu said:


> Maybe not all stainless steel is created equal either.
> Extreme end of the spectrum for sure, but for example those new Harley Benton with "stainless steel frets" are not quite up there from the sound of it.



Now _this_ is the part of the conversation that never gets addressed. Nobody actually cares about the quality of the alloys they're using - they attach themselves to the terminology more than anything. Jescar Nickel is extremely durable, and I've seen some lower-tier Ibanez offerings with SS fretwork that had scratches deep enough to catch a fingernail on some frets. Not all metals are equal, despite standardized alloy content regulations in most places.


----------



## I play music (Jan 13, 2021)




----------



## Mike_R (Jan 13, 2021)

I feel like bending is easier (both the force needed and achieving bend accuracy) with SS frets, but that said, I only have one guitar with SS frets and they need to be leveled (didn't come quite right from the factory). Maybe I need to polish my nickel frets more frequently but they never stay fresh for long. I don't play nearly enough now to worry excessively about leveling frequency (more guitars, less playing on each) but in high school I had one guitar and wore down the frets enough to need a full level in probably 12-18 months.

I'd prefer SS frets (and always would order them, if given the option) but where I am at right now is I will likely buy the guitars I am going to buy (whether SS or not), and if they turn out to be keepers they will get an SS refret when they wear instead of a professional level. I'd much rather the guitars come with SS from the factory even if it meant a $150-300 upcharge. For reference, Warmoth charges something like an extra $25 to get stainless frets on their custom necks.

I think more manufacturers should consider adding them to mid-range options, though, because that is an upgrade not available on most used guitars without spending $4-600. Its a feature that would push me towards new vs what I often do (buy a 1-2 year old guitar for much less than new prices). If I could get a new Ibby or Jackson with SS frets for a comparable cost/slight upcharge to used+SS frets I'd be more inclined to go new, which I think is what manufacturers are trying to get people to do. Otherwise, this year's new color scheme on last year's guitar usually isn't enough to get me to spring for the $3-400 more than buying last year's model gently used.

This shows a slightly audible difference in a strict A/B, but I think all of the other variables mean that SS vs nickel would essentially be a wash tone wise:


----------



## Robslalaina (Jan 13, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Sometime in the mid 1990's.


That's really not my observation. I don't remember much bitching about SS frets on jemsite or the petrucci forums in the early to late 2000s. So I'd agree with the other guy who said the rise in popularity and demand for SS frets is as recent as the djent era.



Crash Dandicoot said:


> Now _this_ is the part of the conversation that never gets addressed. Nobody actually cares about the quality of the alloys they're using - they attach themselves to the terminology more than anything. Jescar Nickel is extremely durable, and I've seen some lower-tier Ibanez offerings with SS fretwork that had scratches deep enough to catch a fingernail on some frets. Not all metals are equal, despite standardized alloy content regulations in most places.


Exactly. It would be interesting to compare fretwear between a higher-end guitar with nickel frets and a mid-tier import with SS over a given period of time. For most people and for how long most people keep their guitars I'm pretty sure it's preferable to get the higher-end guitar in the first place, in terms of the overall playing experience, rather than then mid-tier model because it happens to have SS frets.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 13, 2021)

Robstonin said:


> That's really not my observation. I don't remember much bitching about SS frets on jemsite or the petrucci forums in the early to late 2000s. So I'd agree with the other guy who said the rise in popularity and demand for SS frets is as recent as the djent era.
> 
> 
> Exactly. It would be interesting to compare fretwear between a higher-end guitar with nickel frets and a mid-tier import with SS over a given period of time. For most people and for how long most people keep their guitars I'm pretty sure it's preferable to get the higher-end guitar in the first place, in terms of the overall playing experience, rather than then mid-tier model because it happens to have SS frets.



you'd be quite wrong since anderson, suhr, grosh, and a whole lot of boomer brands transitioned to stainless steel frets in the 90s.

djent bois hopped on this train relatively late.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 13, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> you'd be quite wrong since anderson, suhr, grosh, and a whole lot of boomer brands transitioned to stainless steel frets in the 90s.
> 
> djent bois hopped on this train relatively late.



I think only in the last five years or so have stainless steel frets been a hill to die on for sub-$2k guitars.


----------



## Robslalaina (Jan 14, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> you'd be quite wrong since anderson, suhr, grosh, and a whole lot of boomer brands transitioned to stainless steel frets in the 90s.


Yes, those brands did transition back then already but the OP's question was about customer attitude. Like *MaxOfMetal* said, people have become more vocal about SS frets since 2015/2017 or so. Pretty sure Misha is to blame for this. Again.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 14, 2021)

Robstonin said:


> Yes, those brands did transition back then already but the OP's question was about customer attitude. Like *MaxOfMetal* said, people have become more vocal about SS frets since 2015/2017 or so. Pretty sure Misha is to blame for this. Again.



I think it was Kiesel who really drilled that in amongst the younger, metal oriented online guitar crowd. The big YT influencers too.

Not everything is Misha/Periphery/Djent's fault.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 14, 2021)

Robstonin said:


> Exactly. It would be interesting to *compare fretwear between a higher-end guitar with nickel frets and a mid-tier import with SS over a given period of time*. For most people and for how long most people keep their guitars I'm pretty sure it's preferable to get the higher-end guitar in the first place, in terms of the overall playing experience, rather than then mid-tier model because it happens to have SS frets.



It's not exhaustive but I can vouch for at least things like the Ibanez Premium or Schecter high end Korean imports having stainless steel frets that hold significantly and noticeably better than things that you would already consider pretty high end in the nickel camp (including PRS USA core and the Jescar used by the Schecter USA custom shop). As in remaining silky smooth and requiring no maintenance over time.

Maybe I don't play enough on a single guitar to _really _wear them down, but I see the same exact amount of wear (ie zero) between the above-mentioned imports and something like a Kiesel or Suhr's stainless steel.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 14, 2021)

There are a bunch of factors at play, so yet again, painting with broad strokes does a disservice. 

Stainless steel (even "poor" or "cheap" or whatever internet metallurgists are calling it) will be harder than nickel silver every time. 

Does that mean nickel frets evaporate? Not at all. 

Context is important, and there will always be gray area over what would be objectively best for the given player. 

A weekend warrior with 30+ guitars probably won't have to worry as much as, for instance, a busy gigging musician with one or two guitars they put 10 hours a day on.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 14, 2021)

There will be a whole range of experience for sure, and some people won't even care about the topic at all.

What's pretty objective is that at least one is harder and lower maintenance than the other. It's subjective though which one someone would like more. I'd wager most people prefer the smooth feel and low maintenance, but maybe some prefer the gritty feel and minuscule (if that) tone difference.

And neither may be reason enough to forgo a guitar you otherwise love. After all, you can always get a stainless steel refret


----------



## profwoot (Jan 14, 2021)

For me it comes to this: sooo much of gear preference is personal taste, much of it completely about how pretty or image-aligned potential purchases are. We all care about finishes and wood figuring, which is cool, don't get me wrong, but fret material actually, you know, matters? Functionally, I mean. So of course folks who are trying to optimize for playability and low maintenance would care about it. No offense intended to the nickel fans, but I've wondered about this after seeing a preference for SS frets being treated as an "eccentric SSO poster" thing rather than just progress.

I also bought two guitars in a row off reverb that needed immediate refrets despite the sellers' assurances the frets were fine. Anyway, I now own a strat and a les paul with stainless frets, and whaddya know all the other guitars I've bought off reverb since have had perfectly glossy SS frets upon arrival.


----------



## InfinityCollision (Jan 14, 2021)

Robstonin said:


> That's really not my observation. I don't remember much bitching about SS frets on jemsite or the petrucci forums in the early to late 2000s. So I'd agree with the other guy who said the rise in popularity and demand for SS frets is as recent as the djent era.


Note how the core of neither group involved SS frets at the time, then consider how that might bias your evidence.

This isn't something that happened overnight. It's a development that took time to grow and build momentum, same as most anything does. Now you're seeing them on mainstream production models, so of course that's accelerated further.


----------



## Robslalaina (Jan 14, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not everything is Misha/Periphery/Djent's fault.


Okay, maybe not everything.


----------



## Celtic Frosted Flakes (Jan 14, 2021)

Since I spend most my time GASing on guitars online and browsing forums, and not actually spend time playing the guitars I own, I see no need for SS frets as my guitars get little wear.


----------



## odibrom (Jan 14, 2021)

I took my newest SS refreted guitar to rehearsal last night. The feeling was spot on. The bridge pickup however, was fucking microphonic and couldn't be used with any drive, so I had to transform all the tunes to avoid it. It sounded weird, but played and felt well under the fingers.

A few things I noticed on the SS frets professionally installed against the original nickel ones home leveled and polished:

Way smoother and easier to play vibratos and bends, no scratching sounds
More clarity and note definition, notes ring with a more precise/richer tone
Less effort to make notes ring out clearly
Better pinch harmonics - easier to pull them of, snappier, clearer and more precise tone to them, either with the neck or bridge pickup.
Also bear in mind that this comparison is between a non professional home made fret leveling, crowning and polishing against a professional done job and also, old versus new strings. I have however another guitar that got refreted to SS frets last year with almost 8 months old strings and still sounds great.


----------



## I play music (Jan 14, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Maybe not all stainless steel is created equal either.
> Extreme end of the spectrum for sure, but for example those new Harley Benton with "stainless steel frets" are not quite up there from the sound of it.


What's with those Harley Bentons?


----------



## bostjan (Jan 14, 2021)

Robstonin said:


> That's really not my observation. I don't remember much bitching about SS frets on jemsite or the petrucci forums in the early to late 2000s. So I'd agree with the other guy who said the rise in popularity and demand for SS frets is as recent as the djent era.


More common a complaint now than back then, but there were people who quickly married themselves to the idea pretty much right off the bat. Most people thought they were goofy back then, too.


----------



## Manurack (Jan 14, 2021)

I remember reading a Guitar World magazine with Eddie Van Halen on the cover when he released his signature guitar with SS frets (can't remember when one) but he called out idiots who said "stainless steel frets take away from the tone" and called em dumbasses because EVH played that guitar for months on tour and the frets NEVER wore out.


----------



## olejason (Jan 14, 2021)

Most people who bitch about fret life don't play their guitars enough to need to worry about it.


----------



## Exit Existence (Jan 14, 2021)

I'd spend less time complaining about lack of SS frets and more time complaining about sub par fret jobs I see on tons of guitars these days.
Even if say tons of companies switched over to stainless, you'd still see poor level/crown jobs coming out on cheaper guitars and I think that's a bigger issue.
I'd take a nickel fret guitar with a perfect level job over a stainless guitar with a poor fret job any day.
I cant tell you how many guitars I've had to fret level out of the box because they had high frets in certain spots.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

Guitarists, especially the internet variety, are fucking stupid. It's more fun for some to obsess over pointless specs instead of just playing


----------



## Musiscience (Jan 14, 2021)

olejason said:


> Most people who bitch about fret life don't play their guitars enough to need to worry about it.



The overgeneralization award of the year goes to:


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 14, 2021)

They're slick as a baby seal, bends feel much better. And you don't have to polish or clean them almost at all. Nickel frets seem to show visible wear in six months and first frets on the lower strings are starting to get scratches very early if you bend at all from there. At least in time what I play.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

olejason said:


> Most people who bitch about fret life don't play their guitars enough to need to worry about it.


Truth.


----------



## odibrom (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Truth.



Within your own perspective, that is...


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Guitarists, especially the internet variety, are fucking stupid. It's more fun for some to obsess over pointless specs instead of just playing



playability is pointless now? Might want to read what you wrote again.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Guitarists, especially the internet variety, are fucking stupid. It's more fun for some to obsess over pointless specs instead of just playing



if you can't feel the difference between ss and nickel frets when playing you got some low sensitivity fingers


----------



## bostjan (Jan 14, 2021)

"After heading over to the guitar forum to complain about the typical specification in the NAMM 2021 thread, the guitarist was distracted by another debate ongoing in another thread. "Shut up and play your guitar!" the musician shouted at the screen, but it was to no avail, for the internet was an endless void of nothingness that consumed every ounce of productivity from its users."

-Excerpt from probably no book ever.


----------



## budda (Jan 14, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> playability is pointless now? Might want to read what you wrote again.



A 1990 squier affinity is playable, and with a setup its comfortable too.

DT is right. Forum guys will complain and players will play.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> if you can't feel the difference between ss and nickel frets when playing you got some low sensitivity fingers



I don't care either way and it's never been an issue for me. I don't worry about such things. To each their own. I'd rather just find a guitar I like and play it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

Until about 4 weeks ago I didn't even know stainless steel frets were some great feature. If I've managed to do just fine on whatever the frets on every guitar I've ever played are made out of, I think I'll live.


----------



## mlp187 (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Guitarists, especially the internet variety, are fucking stupid. It's more fun for some to obsess over pointless specs instead of just playing


I fucking love you man.


----------



## ibenhad (Jan 14, 2021)

SS frets, it doesn't really matter till it does.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Until about 4 weeks ago I didn't even know stainless steel frets were some great feature. If I've managed to do just fine on whatever the frets on every guitar I've ever played are made out of, I think I'll live.



I mean I'm not saying anyone needs stainless steel frets or that some people don't even prefer the gritty feel of nickel, but that's not the best argument you could make.

With "I've never tried so don't know it's good" or "I was managing just fine before I heard of that", we'd still rely on horse-drawn carriages and the telegraph instead of smartphones because those managed just fine too


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

mbardu said:


> I mean I'm not saying anyone needs stainless steel frets or that some people don't even prefer the gritty feel of nickel, but that's not the best argument you could make.
> 
> With "I've never tried so don't know it's good" or "I was managing just fine before I heard of that", we'd still rely on horse-drawn carriages and the telegraph instead of smartphones because those managed just fine too



I just don't care. It's not anything I've ever given thought about. I didn't say I never tried it, I said I don't know why all of a sudden it's a must have. IDGAF what my frets are made out of as long as they get the job done.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 14, 2021)

mlp187 said:


> I fucking love you man.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 14, 2021)

budda said:


> A 1990 squier affinity is playable, and with a setup its comfortable too.
> 
> DT is right. Forum guys will complain and players will play.



Yes a guitar is playable. That’s the idea 

One of the biggest pros about SS is the playability. This isn’t a colour or headstock shape. It’s one of the most important parts on a guitar. If you put hundreds and thousands of hours on your guitar then it’s a feature you should prioritise.


----------



## bigcupholder (Jan 14, 2021)

It's increasingly becoming a factor in purchases because there's more options out there with SS frets now, which is a bit of a positive feedback loop since it also means more players are becoming aware of them.

You might get 10+ years out of nickel frets before they need to be replaced but they'll need to be re-leveled a lot more often than that if you want the guitar to play well.

IMO anything that minimizes time spent on maintenance allows me to spend more time playing guitar. It's a matter of convenience. Locking tuners, hardtail bridges, and having multiple guitars for different tunings are all similarly motivated for me.


----------



## kisielk (Jan 14, 2021)

Bingo. I don't really even want to think about fret maintenance if I can avoid it. It's annoying, costs money and time Pretty much all my guitars are SS or EVO Gold (for the ones I refretted) for this reason.


----------



## Thep (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Until about 4 weeks ago I didn't even know stainless steel frets were some great feature. If I've managed to do just fine on whatever the frets on every guitar I've ever played are made out of, I think I'll live.



I felt the same way until I actually owned a guitar with them for a while. I have a whole kit of fretting tools and never thought it was a big deal to perform periodic maintenance. 

They keep their crown and polish far longer than traditional frets and that makes for a good playing guitar. 

SS frets is now the one sole spec that I will never compromise on any new guitar purchase, period.


----------



## odibrom (Jan 14, 2021)

SS frets make the guitar feel like brand new every fucking time I pick them. It's like I just bought it yesterday, though I know it in my hands for more than 10 years. Tone wise, no fucking difference. I've been a nickel fret guy for almost 30 years because at that time no one would speak about that. Only in the last couple years or a bit more I've learnt the existence of these frets and it made all the sense to me. Why would I rely on a fret material that is weaker than a consumer product like the strings? So this to say that all my main guitars are going through SS refret job: 2 are done, one is in shop and the other will get there until the end of the month. If one can afford it, it will be cheaper than a new guitar and will give the same feeling...


----------



## aesthyrian (Jan 14, 2021)

My guitars are quite old(probably older than some members here) and a few may need a fret level, but other than that they have so much life left on them. Sure, SS is nice, even superior, and I would love to own a guitar with them some day, but it's far from necessary and never was for world wide touring musicians so it's absolute silly for any of us bedroom rock stars to use SS frets as a qualifier for whether a guitar is a worthwhile purchase or not.

But to each their own.


----------



## Mike_R (Jan 14, 2021)

Just imagine if this was something else that required maintenance, like a car. Somebody comes out with new tires that handle a bit better than conventional rubber tires, and last the life of the vehicle. What's more, it only costs the manufacturer of the vehicle a slight amount more (I understand that its harder on tools and takes a touch longer to do stainless frets than nickel). You are looking at cars, and you see a car you want, but its only available with the conventional rubber tires. You make the mistake of wishing out loud on SSO that you could get the car you want with the maintenance free tires. Suddenly people from the internet appear and tell you: 
"Its not a big deal, tires wear out. Deal with it."
"You won't drive enough to wear the tires out for a long time anyway. Just get the tires rotated periodically."
"It is just maintenance, buy special tools and learn how to do it yourself, or just pay somebody to rotate and then replace your tires every once in a while."
"All my cars have rubber tires, and they are fine."
"You are a forum poser unless you change tires. Real drivers get tires that wear out."
It would seem silly, right? If you could pay an extra hundred fifty bucks and NEVER have to worry about tires again, I think most of us would do it. Tire shops would hate it, but everyone else would get along fine. Stainless frets are not in any way "worse" than nickel (except for obscure toan debates or comparing poorly done stainless to properly done nickel), and they basically wipe out a whole category of maintenance indefinitely so that 10,000th bend is as smooth and effortless as the first. It isn't "a hill to die on" for me, but if given the choice I would always go for stainless, and I think more stainless offerings would help sell new guitars (probably from around the $1k price point on up, the stainless upcharge might not make sense on a $200 guitar).
With that said, I preordered a nickel fret guitar this week- other features were more important to me than fret material. Stainless is the better tech/material and it is OK for the consumer to ask for it - it won't hurt all your nickel guitars in any way except perhaps in resale value.


----------



## odibrom (Jan 14, 2021)

aesthyrian said:


> (...) but it's far from necessary and never was for world wide touring musicians (...)
> 
> But to each their own.



How long are SS frets a thing? How long ago is this "never was"?... just asking.


----------



## aesthyrian (Jan 14, 2021)

odibrom said:


> How long are SS frets a thing? How long ago is this "never was"?... just asking.



I'm honestly not sure you're being pedantic, but I'll play along regardless.

Pretty much the entire existence of live rock music has been played on guitars with nickel frets. That's how long. Even today, I bet less than 5% of touring guitarist play SS fretted guitars.

That said, like I said before, SS frets are superior and definitely have a place. I'm not trying to deny that they are a near perfect solution for fret-related issues, just simply stating that they are far from a requirement for a quality/professional instrument. Once again, to each their own though.


----------



## odibrom (Jan 14, 2021)

@aesthyrian You didn't reply to "How long are SS frets a thing?". My point is that touring musicians didn't use them because they weren't a thing yet, or, at least, that much wide spread as they are now. They were only available at specialized luthiers and these fellows loose a lot of their incomes if they start to install SS frets all over. It means "no more fret leveling jobs". You see, not all technicians are true when advising the customer, many do so in order of their own agendas, not the customer's best interest.

I was only until recently brands like Ibanez, Mayones, Skervsen, Ormsby, Strandberg or Aristides that started to mainstream these frets that these became a thing and people started to request them more.

You know, the "set and forget" is a peace of mind regarding the shit load of things one has to think about beyond the guitars one has. It's the secure feeling that when you'll pick that guitar it WILL FEEL GOOD and NEW, no matter how long it has been in the case.

You're all free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I only got to know the existence of SS frets no more than 5 to 6 years ago, 10 tops...


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Jan 14, 2021)

The drive-by "Hehe forum chatters spend more time typing than playing guitar" takes are funny but absolutely not contributing anything at all to the discussion.

SS Frets are great, if you can get them on a guitar, get them.

If you can't, and you want the guitar bad enough, get the guitar as well.

Stop overthinking the shit people, literally *ANYTHING *you discuss on fucking SSO of all places is going to be a 10-fold niche and not represent majority of guitarists 

People still buy Fenders and Gibsons in droves that don't have locking tuners, stainless steel frets, evertune, fan frets, etc. It'll definitely be nice when you have those options available, but a lot of you guys are vastly over-estimating how much people sit long enough to think about these specs.


----------



## mongey (Jan 14, 2021)

I have 4 electrics , 1 with SS frets and I like them allot . they stay straight and the stay clean 

I got a price to re fret one of them with SS, but end of the day the cost wasn't really worth it, the nickel ones are totally fine .If I had to refret a guitar completely I would go SS without second thought if it was an option


----------



## metalstrike (Jan 14, 2021)

I won't buy a new guitar without them unless it's an amazing deal or something. After having 2 guitars with them and 1 without, I vastly prefer SS frets. I love the durability, feel, and peace of mind of not having to worry about wear.


----------



## efiltsohg (Jan 14, 2021)

bigcupholder said:


> You might get 10+ years out of nickel frets before they need to be replaced but they'll need to be re-leveled a lot more often than that if you want the guitar to play well.
> .



lol massive exaggeration, are you playing guitar with a hammer?


----------



## troyguitar (Jan 14, 2021)

If I didn't have to do my own maintenance on my guitars, I wouldn't care about having SS frets... but that's never going to happen, so I'm willing to pay extra in order to spend less time on maintenance and have the feel of freshly polished frets every single day.

Why the hell so many people, especially on a forum dedicated to another "unnecessary" guitar feature, have a problem with that is beyond me. Why do you need 7 strings when you can just tune down? Hell, why do you need to tune down at all? Guitarists got by with 6 strings for hundreds of years. Why are you so special that you need 7?


----------



## aesthyrian (Jan 14, 2021)

odibrom said:


> @aesthyrian You didn't reply to "How long are SS frets a thing?". My point is that touring musicians didn't use them because they weren't a thing yet, or, at least, that much wide spread as they are now. They were only available at specialized luthiers and these fellows loose a lot of their incomes if they start to install SS frets all over. It means "no more fret leveling jobs". You see, not all technicians are true when advising the customer, many do so in order of their own agendas, not the customer's best interest.
> 
> I was only until recently brands like Ibanez, Mayones, Skervsen, Ormsby, Strandberg or Aristides that started to mainstream these frets that these became a thing and people started to request them more.
> 
> ...



Good points. I'm not going to try and argue since I agree with ya. I'm still going to stress my point though that SS frets absolutely should not be a requirement or quantifier as to what a quality instrument is, and they are definitely not necessary at all in order to have a very successful career in music as a guitarist. 

I personally do remember hearing about SS frets quite far back, like 2004. Ed Roman was always bitching about how they "ruined tone" ya know, cause the points you made about stealing fret job sales from him.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Jan 14, 2021)

aesthyrian said:


> Good points. I'm not going to try and argue since I agree with ya. I'm still going to stress my point though that SS frets absolutely should not be a requirement or quantifier as to what a quality instrument is, and they are definitely not necessary at all in order to have a very successful career in music as a guitarist.
> 
> I personally do remember hearing about SS frets quite far back, like 2004. Ed Roman was always bitching about how they "ruined tone" ya know, cause the points you made about stealing fret job sales from him.



No one is saying that it's a requirement for a guitar to be a quality instrument. Much less that you need it to be a successful musician.

If you were offered two options for any singular thing, and the reasons for it outweigh the other option. There are very few scenarios besides preference where you would pick the objectively inferior spec.


----------



## aesthyrian (Jan 14, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one is saying that it's a requirement for a guitar to be a quality instrument. Much less that you need it to be a successful musician.



Sorry, I thought that was the basis for this discussion. Taken from the first post of this thread, "When did guitarists start to judge the quality of any guitar by whether or not it has SS frets?".


----------



## StevenC (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Guitarists, especially the internet variety, are fucking stupid. It's more fun for some to obsess over pointless specs instead of just playing


I totally would play my guitars more instead of posting here, but all of them need fretwork done.


----------



## bigcupholder (Jan 14, 2021)

efiltsohg said:


> lol massive exaggeration, are you playing guitar with a hammer?


That's not at all an exaggeration. Nickel frets show pretty bad wear after a couple years.


----------



## Leviathus (Jan 14, 2021)




----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Until about 4 weeks ago I didn't even know stainless steel frets were some great feature. If I've managed to do just fine on whatever the frets on every guitar I've ever played are made out of, I think I'll live.



I like you. I've never met a person that admitted they didn't know shit and was then so authoritative about it.


----------



## noise in my mind (Jan 14, 2021)

I think with nickel frets it depends on the players touch and the quality of wire used. I bought an rg652 new from sweetwater, and after about 2 years of hard play it showed some wear and pitting. I have a lighter touch with my fretting so your mileage will vary.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> I like you. I've never met a person that admitted they didn't know shit and was then so authoritative about it.


Makes being happy with gear much easier. I don't waste time taking forum comments personally, as they don't really matter in the greater scheme of things


----------



## efiltsohg (Jan 15, 2021)

bigcupholder said:


> That's not at all an exaggeration. Nickel frets show pretty bad wear after a couple years.



somebody should tell that to my 13 year old LTD I guess. Or my 16 year old Danelectro. Or my 40 year old Fender.


----------



## Grindspine (Jan 15, 2021)

If you use hard steel strings (D'Addario NYXL anyone?) nickel frets will definitely show the wear.

My main guitar when I was in high school ('94 Washburn Dime 333) had cheapy soft nickel frets. The frets showed corrosion and had to be cleaned every string change even though I have always been meticulous about playing with clean hands. I knew less about humidity control back then, so also had frets lifting after a few winters.

I had that guitar refretted with Jescar Evo Gold (non-nickel alloy that has a gold/brass color to it), which is harder than nickel, but softer than stainless. That guitar has never played better. 

I also snagged one of the Ibanez limited runs from Axe Palace that came with stainless frets. They do feel a bit smoother than my other Ibanez RGD with the Prestige fret end treatment. Nickel tends to just grip the strings a bit more than stainless, especially when bending.

I am not opposed to nickel of high quality. My two PRS guitars and my BC Rich USA have a hard nickel fret material that has lasted years without a problem.

Since I have more guitars now, the wear on each one is spread around a bit more, so it is not as big of a concern. If any other guitars need a refret, stainless or EVO Gold are definitely preferred for me now. Hard nickel alloys are acceptable, but tracking a defined hardness the fretwire on specific guitar runs is not easy.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 15, 2021)

So other than “players shouldn’t care about playability” does anyone have an actual negative thing to say about well done SS frets(There are legitimate complaints to be made about badly done SS frets)? Andy James said he dislikes them because they are never broken in and he wants to feel resistance when he plays. A bit strange but we all have our preferences.



Mike_R said:


> "All my cars have rubber tires, and they are fine."



You’ve been hanging out on 7wheeler.org too much.


----------



## lurè (Jan 15, 2021)

SS frets are objectively better then nickel frets plus now that they're more common, I see no reason not to look for them.


----------



## Hoss632 (Jan 15, 2021)

It's not a deal breaker for me for a couple of reasons. One I've never owned or played a guitar with stainless frets. And even if I did I'm no where near experienced enough a player to even noticed the difference. 2. some of the best quality guitars around are nickle fret (PRS for example). I like the idea of having less maintenance to do on a guitar hence I would prefer stainless frets on my next purchase.


----------



## StevenC (Jan 15, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> So other than “players shouldn’t care about playability” does anyone have an actual negative thing to say about well done SS frets(There are legitimate complaints to be made about badly done SS frets)? Andy James said he dislikes them because they are never broken in and he wants to feel resistance when he plays. A bit strange but we all have our preferences.
> 
> 
> 
> You’ve been hanging out on 7wheeler.org too much.


Stainless steel frets suck because I overshoot all of my slides and bends due to the smoothness.


----------



## soliloquy (Jan 15, 2021)

maybe its a softer nickel alloy used in South Korea, China, and Indonesia guitars, when compared to US and Japan guitars...or maybe its just my mind playing tricks. All I know is that my sweat really starts creating grooves in Korean/Chinese/Indonesian frets within weeks of playing. Where as US and Japanese frets it takes me about 6 months to a year before I start noticing something on the frets. Stainless steel frets have yet to do that.

I really dont want to take the change and put random frets on a guitar I love, only for it to feel wrong afterwards. Though its not THAT big a deal, I would still prefer SS frets than not on a guitar i REALLY love.


----------



## profwoot (Jan 15, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Stainless steel frets suck because I overshoot all of my slides and bends due to the smoothness.



This is legit. As demonstrated above, I'm in the "SS is objectively better" camp but it is an adjustment for this reason. And that's one of the reasons why I'll never buy nickel again. No sense having to adjust more than once.


----------



## bigcupholder (Jan 15, 2021)

efiltsohg said:


> somebody should tell that to my 13 year old LTD I guess. Or my 16 year old Danelectro. Or my 40 year old Fender.


You're claiming you don't have noticeable fret wear on a 40 year old guitar, but I'm the one exaggerating?


----------



## mbardu (Jan 15, 2021)

bigcupholder said:


> You're claiming you don't have noticeable fret wear on a 40 year old guitar, but I'm the one exaggerating?



I'm sure it's possible if you conserve your guitars the way that dude conserves his hot dogs


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jan 15, 2021)

I love stainless frets. This are my beliefs.


----------



## Mike_R (Jan 15, 2021)

aesthyrian said:


> Sorry, I thought that was the basis for this discussion. Taken from the first post of this thread, "When did guitarists start to judge the quality of any guitar by whether or not it has SS frets?".



Perhaps at last I can bring unity and peace to the internet. There are multiple questions in the OP. One is when did SS frets become a measure of quality. I would propose that SS frets have never been a measure of quality, and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise (unless I missed something here, which is possible). It is, however, a feature that many people value. A finely honed German steel straight razor is a higher quality tool than an off the shelf Gillette Mach 3, but more people value the feature of replaceable razor heads that don't require specialized tools or professional labor to keep functioning their best. Shoutout to anyone who hones and strops just to shave their face, but most people use disposable razors/blades to shave for the convenience- no specialized tools or paying a pro to maintain it. Another question in the OP is:



TheInvisibleHand said:


> Can someone explain to my dumbass what the fuss is about? I am legitimately confused.



The pro-SS fret position here, i.e. what the fuss is about, is I believe summarized into two main points: 
1. A benefit aside from leveling durability is that SS frets are harder than conventional nickel frets and maintain a better surface finish, facilitating bending and vibrato. Freshly polished nickel can also be smooth, but WILL require regular, frequent polishing to approach the slickness of stainless. You may not bend enough to care, or may be so used to nickel's drag that this doesn't matter to you. Some people like smooth bends.
2. While both nickel and SS frets are completely viable the nickel frets WILL require maintenance at some point (whether that is 500 hours or 5000 hours of play time the day will come). This is why techs and luthiers will perform levels and eventually refrets on "quality" guitars. While a Squier's nickel frets might wear faster than a PRS, there is a significant step up in durability that comes with SS frets.

Just because you have an old guitar or know someone who has an old guitar that hasn't been leveled doesn't mean frets don't wear. I've seen cars with 50 year old tires in a museum, because they are/were parked- that doesn't mean nobody ever needs tires replaced, so it isn't particularly compelling to assert otherwise based on your anecdotal sample size of one or three or whatever. I have worn nickel frets down to the point of needing a full level in less than 2 years, and you could see they need to be leveled with a naked eye, no fret rocker or straightedge required. E pur si muove and all of that.

I don't get the hate, though. There is a common theme in this thread - most people who have owned a guitar with stainless steel frets would either prefer them or even won't buy a guitar without them in the future. The fact that they want that feature (whether for bending smoothness, reduced maintenance or both) doesn't really inconvenience the pro-nickel guys beyond perhaps having to scroll through a handful of comments you don't like. Fortunately, we live in a world where you still have choices in what you want to buy. Its not like Big Stainless Fret is lobbying to ban mom and pop nickel fret makers. There are much bigger fish to fry than pissing on someone who doesn't share your fret religion. Some people prefer cassette tapes to CDs, or candles to LEDs, and that's fine too. 

Like it? Buy it. Don't like it? Don't buy it. The feedback where people say I would buy xyz guitar if only it had SS frets could be annoying, but it might also help guitar manufacturers looking to sell guitars to cater to a growing demographic of people who prefer that feature. Us rightys deal with leftys commenting that they would buy xyz guitar if it was lefty, and unlike being left or right handed the proportion of players wanting SS frets likely grows as people become aware of or try SS frets. 

Of all the assertions in this thread, though, the idea that nickel frets don't wear unless you hit them with a hammer is the biggest exaggeration I have seen.


----------



## efiltsohg (Jan 15, 2021)

bigcupholder said:


> You're claiming you don't have noticeable fret wear on a 40 year old guitar, but I'm the one exaggerating?


I'm claiming it doesn't have "pretty bad times 20" wear


----------



## mpexus (Jan 15, 2021)

Its the new trend.

Waith until more guitars start to be made without wood and all of a sudden eveybody will say:

- I will never buy another Wood made guitar!!! How dare they ask for these prices and this is just wood?


----------



## TheInvisibleHand (Jan 15, 2021)

For whats it worth, all of the guitars I currently own have SS frets...

I didn't ask the original question because I don't prefer them, I most definitely do. I'm always excited when the guitar I choose to buy has them. I just wouldn't base my entire purchasing decision on that factor.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 15, 2021)

mpexus said:


> Its the new trend.
> 
> Waith until more guitars start to be made without wood and all of a sudden eveybody will say:
> 
> - I will never buy another Wood made guitar!!! How dare they ask for these prices and this is just wood?



To be fair guitars don't really need to be made of wood and they'd probably be better off using something else but it's just how it goes.

But you're right. Change a spec and then internet people act as if it's the only thing that matters for a guitar they either won't even buy or won't have for long because they change gear more than they change their underwear. Every time there is some new fad all the forum folk act as if they need it to survive and a few years later they forget about it and go onto the next.

I'm waiting for the day they slowly start making more and more non-wood guitars so all the forum people can ramble about how they need a specific tonewood and swear they can hear and feel the difference


----------



## SpaceDock (Jan 15, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> To be fair guitars don't really need to be made of wood and they'd probably be better off using something else but it's just how it goes.
> 
> But you're right. Change a spec and then internet people act as if it's the only thing that matters for a guitar they either won't even buy or won't have for long because they change gear more than they change their underwear. Every time there is some new fad all the forum folk act as if they need it to survive and a few years later they forget about it and go onto the next.
> 
> I'm waiting for the day they slowly start making more and more non-wood guitars so all the forum people can ramble about how they need a specific tonewood and swear they can hear and feel the difference



Aristides bro


----------



## troyguitar (Jan 16, 2021)

Parker Fly is still the best feeling guitar I've ever played, by far... stainless frets and not much wood underneath the carbon. Aluminum bridge too IIRC. Looks like they're out of business now, I guess there weren't enough internet morons to fall for Parker's schemes since we all know that the electric guitar peaked in the 1950s?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2021)

troyguitar said:


> Parker Fly is still the best feeling guitar I've ever played, by far... stainless frets and not much wood underneath the carbon. Aluminum bridge too IIRC. Looks like they're out of business now, I guess there weren't enough internet morons to fall for Parker's schemes since we all know that the electric guitar peaked in the 1950s?



Even sadder: thier parent company got bought out by a conglomerate who starved them.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 16, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Even sadder: thier parent company got bought out by a conglomerate who starved them.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Music_Corporation

man other Marshall....this is a sad legacy.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Music_Corporation
> 
> man other Marshall....this is a sad legacy.



They just distribute Marshall.


----------



## mpexus (Jan 16, 2021)

SpaceDock said:


> Aristides bro




They are on the right direction, but the manufacturing process makes them so expensive that they are a Niche.


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 16, 2021)

Having objectively more durable frets with less friction and maintenance is now just a fad


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2021)

mpexus said:


> They are on the right direction, but the manufacturing process makes them so expensive that they are a Niche.



They're really not that expensive, priced similar to other custom shops, and even less expensive in many cases. 

They're just not made to scale, so pricing is based on that.


----------



## mpexus (Jan 16, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They're really not that expensive, priced similar to other custom shops, and even less expensive in many cases.
> 
> They're just not made to scale, so pricing is based on that.




Yes but Custom Shops are also a Niche. 

Most of us will never have a Custom Shop guitar but we will have at least 2-3 at a given time. Until they manage to reach a Mid level price (500-800 and even 1K) They will be out of reach for most guitar players. This is what I meant.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 16, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They're really not that expensive, priced similar to other custom shops, and even less expensive in many cases.
> 
> They're just not made to scale, so pricing is based on that.



strandberg has proven that there are people out there that will pay 3500 dollars for an Indonesian guitar. it's all upside down world from here on out.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 16, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> strandberg has proven that there are people out there that will pay 3500 dollars for an Indonesian guitar. it's all upside down world from here on out.


PrOpRiEtArY hArDwArE and 2x4 neck


----------



## ShieldsCW (Jan 19, 2021)

Nickel frets wear out? Tell that to my 23 year old Les Paul and my 20 year old Schecter. 

Literally never knew that my frets are supposed to be wearing out until reading this thread.


----------



## T00DEEPBLUE (Jan 19, 2021)

ShieldsCW said:


> Nickel frets wear out? Tell that to my 23 year old Les Paul and my 20 year old Schecter.
> 
> Literally never knew that my frets are supposed to be wearing out until reading this thread.


Lucky you.

The rest of us regularly play our favourite guitars for very extensive periods of time. Leading to fret wear inevitably occurring.


----------



## Poul Winther Knudsen (Jan 19, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> First: this isn't meant to be a hot take or some incendiary question.
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...




I wouldn't call a guitar garbage just because of nickel frets but in my case there is a real reason for preferring ss. The reason is high carbon steel strings. Since I first tried I use NYXL exclusively and I would never even consider reverting to regular strings. Not only do they never break and last much longer, but they sound much clearer with a lot more bite.

Combined with my super wide vibrato style I wear down nickel frets in approximately 18 months. They could still work another 18 months after some fret work but then the frets are no longer nearly jumbo size, so replacing the frets (or the axe) are the only options.

I am sure it's much completely different with other use cases but for me ss is a great solution.


----------



## SamSam (Jan 19, 2021)

I do enjoy SS frets, although it's certainly a nice to have, but not a deal breaker. Mainly for the smoothness and nice shiny look.

My 18 year old RG570 doesn't have any notable fret wear and it must be my most played/gigged instrument.

My Dingwall bass though... fucking hammered those frets, the fret size and playing style are likely the cause though. I've had that about three years and a couple of frets have definitely sustained some decent wear in that time.

Personally I think XJ frets will last ages if treated well no matter the material.


----------



## yan12 (Jan 19, 2021)

For me it is no question, SS all the way. That said, I won't pass up on a guitar I want or need because it has nickel. But if it needs a refret I go SS.
I think they are one of the best advancements in years. I am a traditionalist in most regards, but I loved SS once I tried them. But don't get me started on guitar design and construction method...I can really get opinionated on that topic!


----------



## yuri_1973 (Jan 19, 2021)

SS all the way for me.

I don't think I'll buy any brand-new guitar without them (unless a collectible/vintage thing comes across as a real bargain or that sort of thing).

To me, SS frets IS a real deal breaker ... some part of me just feels uncomfortable acquiring a tool knowing it's doomed to get worse even if you take the most care of it, when you can avoid it by getting a SS equipped "counterpart" (usually pricier, that's also the downside).

I don't mind much if a guitar can be dinged, chipped, crackeled, etc... those are all aesthetic factors, but fret wear, .... sooner or later it'll affect action/buzzing, bending & sliding comfort, etc... of course you can have frets taken care of, or replaced (an idea I don't like much either as fret slots won't be the same anymore).


----------



## Mr Aguia (Jan 19, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> First: this isn't meant to be a hot take or some incendiary question.
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...


Its trendy thats all. Most of my guitars are from the late 1980's. Had them dressed and crowed a couple years ago. If every 25 years I need to have them crowned I don't see the big deal. Plus the SS frets wear out strings way faster. Gonna cost 50xs more in extra string younhave to buy.


----------



## cscheid (Jan 19, 2021)

It really depends on how you play. I eat through nickel frets. Granted some companies like PRS use super hard nickel, but normal cheapish nickel frets will get hammered when I play them. My first experience with stainless frets was a suhr modern antique I had, and since then I'll never go back. They just can keep up with my aggressive nature and namely aggressive vibrato. I recently just got an ESP Standard Series Phoenix and while its completely a sick guitar, after having it for several months I've already had to do some spot leveling since it has regular frets. I don't think it's necessarily a symbol of quality for me, since PRS core guitars are some of the nicest I've played, but it's more so that I know there's a better material than nickel out there, and I'd rather use it instead of nickel


----------



## yan12 (Jan 19, 2021)

I think fretwire from the late 80's early 90's was a bit harder...and bigger. My early Jackson and Ibanez guitars still have plenty of life left but could use dress. Another reason for jumbo frets back in the day. Again, it is preference and I think they are better but no dealbreaker. I have had some for 4yrs now and have not noticed my strings being worn out...but I don't change them much anyhow. I don't buy into changing them after every gig.

This is my Fender Showmaster USA customshop from 2002...plenty of life on these frets. If they ever go beyond dead I will use stainless for a refret.


----------



## efiltsohg (Jan 19, 2021)

cscheid said:


> It really depends on how you play. I eat through nickel frets. Granted some companies like PRS use super hard nickel, but normal cheapish nickel frets will get hammered when I play them. My first experience with stainless frets was a suhr modern antique I had, and since then I'll never go back. They just can keep up with my aggressive nature and namely aggressive vibrato. I recently just got an ESP Standard Series Phoenix and while its completely a sick guitar, after having it for several months I've already had to do some spot leveling since it has regular frets. I don't think it's necessarily a symbol of quality for me, since PRS core guitars are some of the nicest I've played, but it's more so that I know there's a better material than nickel out there, and I'd rather use it instead of nickel



I bet it has more to do with sweat or something, because I play like a caveman and my frets are all fine


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 19, 2021)

yan12 said:


> I think fretwire from the late 80's early 90's was a bit harder...and bigger.



This is the problem with the metal industry nowadays. I've steel in sheltered 10 year old buildings that wants to just oxidise and rot away so I need to sand and re-paint it every year but my buildings from the 70s with steel out in the open are way stronger. It's getting so hard to find hard durable steel for building that doesn't cost a fortune. 



Mr Aguia said:


> Plus the SS frets wear out strings way faster. Gonna cost 50xs more in extra string younhave to buy.



In my experience strings last longer on SS fret guitars but that depends what you classify as wearing strings out. Is it them 
going dead, not holding tune or wearing away against the frets? If you are getting to the point that you are wearing strings flat against the frets then you should really change strings because they would have went dead years before that point(think you mate's 10 year old acoustic that still has the original strings).


----------



## Infini (Jan 19, 2021)

Given that I am an actual 500lb gorilla that accidentally managed to learn guitar and bass, my instruments suffer heavy wear as I regularly hammer them with my ridiculously sized plectrums and unsophisticated technique. SS frets offset a lot of that damage- I've managed to dent or wear down all of my other guitars excepting those that have steel frets. Also they feel really, really nice.

An aside- my animalistic clumsiness and lack of intelligence disregarded, you're welcome prefer nickel frets (or disregard steels) to your heart's content, as long as we agree that steel is objectively a better material for frets for the sole reason that they wear considerably slower, and require virtually no maintenance(unless you want to argue that they affect tone, which is a talk you will have to take with someone willing to listen to you from outside the asylum). 

Post script: like with wheels on a car and the road, it always struck me as odd that most people care very little about the material of the only part of the guitar that actually touches the strings(besides your fingers/paws, obviously) why would you cheap out on that issue, specifically? 'My tesco tires have never blown in 20 years!' while I am happy for you, these things do happen, some people do care about it. 'Nickels do the job fine, steel frets are not necessary!' Arguing about what is necessary on an instrument is like a jester asking me to a dancefloor filled with foam pies and balloon dildos; you will dance alone old man, your madness is incomprehensible and will never make sense, miss me with that clown shit.

But hey you do you, I'm just a simian with a keyboard, also I am not mad, I am drunk, why do you think I'm on the internet in the first place?

TL;DR steel frets are better if you disagree you are old and/or not playing guitar as much as you are supposed to


----------



## bostjan (Jan 19, 2021)

"You guys are all snobs, wanting metal frets. What's wrong with gut frets?!" - someone from the sixstring.org mailing list in 1780, probably.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

bostjan said:


> "You guys are all snobs, wanting metal frets. What's wrong with gut frets?!" - someone from the sixstring.org mailing list in 1780, probably.



I have no idea what gut frets are but I want them immediately


----------



## Thomas Mims (Jan 19, 2021)

I think the only time I’ll care to buy SS is if I’m buying used. Just cause I’ve bought some used nickel fret guitars and Idk what some of these savages are stringing their guitars with but it appears to be with nail filers judging by how much fret is left. xD


----------



## Thomas Mims (Jan 19, 2021)

Gut frets


DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I have no idea what gut frets are but I want them immediately


Those are frets and strings used on lutes in the Middle Ages where they were made of sheep gut. Lol pretty metal actually ...the aesthetic not the element


----------



## bostjan (Jan 19, 2021)

Gut frets started becoming commonplace during the 1500's and were phased out for bone frets in the early 1700's, and then metal bars in the late 1700's and finally the nickel-copper alloy frets we are most familiar with in the early 1900's. Martin was still using metal bars up until the late-1920's, I think. Maybe by 2100 or so, people will start using something else and stainless steel frets will be seen as archaic. 

Many lute players still use gut frets, a reflection of the time when that instrument had its heyday. To me, it sounds like a bit of a nightmare never knowing when you would break a fret, which happens, seeing as how the guts get dried up and eventually deteriorate.

But, even though I brought that up in jest, it was to point out that SS frets seem like a natural progress of technology to a number of players. They are super common now, and we've seen their benefits. Would you buy a guitar with gut strings? Sure, if it was super cool, but if it was just the next RG270OSGF (old school gut fret), then no thanks.


----------



## Vyn (Jan 19, 2021)

SS isn't a deal breaker for me. That being set, I am looking at getting 3-4 guitars refretted with SS. The no-maintence aspect of it is great, and when I'm already having to maintain a bunch of floyds, anything that reduces time is a plus.


----------



## surge (Jan 19, 2021)

SS frets are a must for me
I vowed never to buy a guitar with nickel frets ever again
Bought a brand new PRS CU24 from Sweetwater in 2012, within two years it was unplayable due to fret wear
I got an Ibby AZ2402 right when it first came out, have had it for close to two years now and the frets still look exactly the same as the day when I first took it out of the case for the first time
They are brighter sounding but it’s not a big problem, the pros far outweigh the cons
So in my opinion, unless you...
1.) Are comfortable doing fretwork on your own OR
2.) Live somewhere where there are competent luthiers around that do a good job and can get your guitar back to you in a reasonable amount of time (last time I brought my PRS in, took FOUR MONTHS to get it back) AND
3.) Don’t mind shelling out hundreds of dollars and losing your instrument for week(s or MONTHs)...
It’s better to just get SS frets and turn the presence down on your amp
Speaking of frets has anyone tried those new “sub zero treated” nickel frets?
I wonder if they actually do last longer, or if it’s just marketing fluff


----------



## mbardu (Jan 19, 2021)

surge said:


> Speaking of frets has anyone tried those new “*sub zero treated*” nickel frets?
> I wonder if they actually do last longer, or if it’s just marketing fluff



Marketing stuff. Definitely not stainless-steel-like.


----------



## soldierkahn (Jan 19, 2021)

FWIW... YMMV.....but to be honest, every guitar I've owned that had SS frets equipped on them I have not been able to jive with. I've done both an RGA6UCS and an RG2027XLS, both of which had ebony + SS frets. They each had this identical texture in the tone when plugged in that seemed to flood my amp with high frequencies that were a nightmare to try and dial out without turning the tone to sludge.

One other strange finding I recently discovered too tells me that it's not completely the SS frets to blame for that sound. When I bought my 2020 RGDR4327 recently, it came with nickel frets and an ebony board. The first thing I noticed when I plugged in was that same type of treble spike, just not as badly or as prominent as ebony + SS frets. I

But, I recently traded my brand new RGDR4327 neck with the ebony and reverse headstock, for a mint 2016 RGD2127Z neck with rosewood and regular headstock. On top of fixing my other beef i had with the RGDR's neck, I noticed a significant tone change as well. Now my RGDR has a much warmer tone, all of those highs I was hearing was gone. For reference, it changed it's tone to being just a pinch brighter than a stock DCM100. 

Like I said, not many folks will believe me, but I literally ran my test 2weeks ago. I got the RGD2127Z neck in from another SS member, so I jammed non-stop for an hour on my 4327.... quickly removed the stock neck, put the 2127Z neck on quick, retuned, and started jamming. So I tested using the same amp channel preset on a fully warmed up amp, the same strings, the same tuning, the same guitar body, the same signal chain, same 9v battery, etc etc. As tightly controlled testing as possible to reduce variables.


----------



## Thomas Mims (Jan 19, 2021)

soldierkahn said:


> FWIW... YMMV.....but to be honest, every guitar I've owned that had SS frets equipped on them I have not been able to jive with. I've done both an RGA6UCS and an RG2027XLS, both of which had ebony + SS frets. They each had this identical texture in the tone when plugged in that seemed to flood my amp with high frequencies that were a nightmare to try and dial out without turning the tone to sludge.
> 
> One other strange finding I recently discovered too tells me that it's not completely the SS frets to blame for that sound. When I bought my 2020 RGDR4327 recently, it came with nickel frets and an ebony board. The first thing I noticed when I plugged in was that same type of treble spike, just not as badly or as prominent as ebony + SS frets. I
> 
> ...


What exactly is your amp? And I am a big believer of everything in a guitar affects tone but...I can’t speak on something like that destroying tone. What strings do you use? How high is your pickups and string height? Do you have have sonar hearing or have you grown antennae that can pick up frequencies past 15k? Most humans I feel have no ability to hear a major difference in what frets are being used.


----------



## surge (Jan 20, 2021)

Thomas Mims said:


> What exactly is your amp? And I am a big believer of everything in a guitar affects tone but...I can’t speak on something like that destroying tone. What strings do you use? How high is your pickups and string height? Do you have have sonar hearing or have you grown antennae that can pick up frequencies past 15k? Most humans I feel have no ability to hear a major difference in what frets are being used.


They absolutely do sound noticeably different. They're brighter for sure. 
Used to think there was no difference but there definitely is.
But for me it's easy to work around...especially with plug-ins or an Axe FX (or both). Just throw FF ProQ on there and do a sweep of the higher mids, and you'll spot it. Easy to dial out. 
Or if you're more of an analog person, just turn the presence or whatever high end EQ control(s) you've got on your amp down a little.
Sometimes I leave it in...today's guitar heroes like Tim Henson, Tosin, etc. and the like typically have a brighter sound anyway, compared to the older school gents, and especially compared to like 90s / 2000s hard rock and nu-metal, and that's even when they're playing vintage guitars with ns frets.
You don't want it harsh tho, there's definitely a limit, but it shouldn't be that difficult to hear when it's way too zingy clangy bright 
Anyway, the pros far outweigh the cons, for me anyway...I would love to have the time and patience to learn how to do fret levels and crowns myself, or be able to afford a personal guitar tech who can work on my guitars and get them back to me in less than a week (a man can dream can't he?) but until then, I'll stick with SS.


----------



## gunch (Jan 20, 2021)

Infini said:


> Given that I am an actual 500lb gorilla that accidentally managed to learn guitar and bass, my instruments suffer heavy wear as I regularly hammer them with my ridiculously sized plectrums and unsophisticated technique. SS frets offset a lot of that damage- I've managed to dent or wear down all of my other guitars excepting those that have steel frets. Also they feel really, really nice.
> 
> An aside- my animalistic clumsiness and lack of intelligence disregarded, you're welcome prefer nickel frets (or disregard steels) to your heart's content, as long as we agree that steel is objectively a better material for frets for the sole reason that they wear considerably slower, and require virtually no maintenance(unless you want to argue that they affect tone, which is a talk you will have to take with someone willing to listen to you from outside the asylum).
> 
> ...


sig worthy quote someone get on it


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Jan 20, 2021)

I disagree with the tonal difference, I even had several friends of mine come over and both try the guitar post refret + listen to my recorded samples before and after the refret.

It's a pretty hard placebo to be fair, but if we're being real here then if anything Nickel frets when they're and fully polished vs 6 months down the line when they get a little oxidized/cloudy would also deteriorate the sound of the guitar.

My test back when wasn't super scientific, but I restrung my RG550 with 10's in E Standard and riffed around. Plopped the neck off, sent it to Stockwell guitars and when it arrived restrung/tuned it exactly the same way and compared the samples.

Same guitar, same neck, same setup, different fret material.


----------



## Humbuck (Jan 20, 2021)

I'm waiting for ceramic frets...or cubic zirconia.


----------



## gunch (Jan 20, 2021)

Humbuck said:


> I'm waiting for ceramic frets...or cubic zirconia.



TUNGSTEN


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Jan 20, 2021)

These guys were at NAMM a few years back, Crystal Frets.

Definitely diminishing returns with their costs, but damn they did a black guitar with Black Onyx frets. That could have really completed the ultimate stealth bomber black guitar look.

They might be out of business though.







https://www.facebook.com/Crystalfrets/


----------



## groverj3 (Jan 20, 2021)

This thread is actually pretty timely because I had just sent a guitar in for a stainless refret. I now have it back. Worth every penny.


----------



## GustavoGP (Jan 20, 2021)

There is a Schecter KM-7 MKI at Reverb (SS frets obviously), look at the outrageously poor condition of some frets:



What in the name of all that's holy can do that kind of wear to SS frets?
Edward “Carbon-Graphene-Diamond” Scissorhands???


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 20, 2021)

Looks more like a shitty crown job. Homeboy might have tried leveling the frets and then either skipped the crown or just did a piss poor job. Or just a bummer jobber from the factory.


----------



## Leviathus (Jan 20, 2021)

Looks like whatever happened fucked up the fingerboard too.


----------



## profwoot (Jan 21, 2021)

Thomas Mims said:


> I think the only time I’ll care to buy SS is if I’m buying used. Just cause I’ve bought some used nickel fret guitars and Idk what some of these savages are stringing their guitars with but it appears to be with nail filers judging by how much fret is left. xD



This is the reason I switched entirely to SS. Sure SS is just objectively better, etc. (I entirely endorse Infini's drunk rant above), but the first two "keeper" guitars I bought off Reverb both came with barely any fret left and needed immediate (SS) refrets (despite assurances from the both sellers that the frets were fine).

When there are so many guitars made with SS frets now, buying a used guitar with nickel frets is just not a necessary or desirable risk anymore. 

This is still an issue even if you always buy new if you ever hope to sell.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 21, 2021)

GustavoGP said:


> There is a Schecter KM-7 MKI at Reverb (SS frets obviously), look at the outrageously poor condition of some frets:
> View attachment 89282
> View attachment 89283
> 
> ...



Doesn't look so much like "fret wear" (as in gentle play grooves developing over time under the strings) as it looks like "throwing the guitar face down onto a pile of gravel before generously stomping on it", as verified by the state of the fretboard as well. So unless you're planning to regularly throw your guitar face down onto a pile of gravel before generously stomping on it, I would suspect stainless steel frets are fine- and I doubt nickel would fare better under such circumstances .


----------



## ixlramp (Jan 21, 2021)

Mr Aguia said:


> Plus the SS frets wear out strings way faster. Gonna cost 50xs more in extra string younhave to buy.


Nah ... strings are nickel plated steel so are of equal hardness, they will wear no faster than the frets do, so extremely slowly.
(The very thin nickel plating is insignificant, it does not matter if that wears away on the underside of a string, bends will still be very smooth.)
Besides, the strings will be dead from the typical causes long before there is any significant wear on them.


----------



## Matt08642 (Jan 21, 2021)

GustavoGP said:


> There is a Schecter KM-7 MKI at Reverb (SS frets obviously), look at the outrageously poor condition of some frets:
> View attachment 89282
> View attachment 89283
> 
> ...



This for sure fell face down on something very hard or got dragged, or both. The only time I got damage like that on my _nickel_ frets was when my mic stand fell over and my SM58 careened in to the fretboard and smashed the G and B strings in to the frets


----------



## mbardu (Jan 21, 2021)

ixlramp said:


> Nah ... strings are nickel plated steel so are of equal hardness, they will wear no faster than the frets do, so extremely slowly.
> (The very thin nickel plating is insignificant, it does not matter if that wears away on the underside of a string, bends will still be very smooth.)
> Besides, the strings will be dead from the typical causes long before there is any significant wear on them.



I'd go a step further. Frets that don't corrode or mark, and stay smooth over time vs developing micro-grooves (so stainless steel vs nickel) do tend to wear the strings noticeably _less_. And although it changes nothing for the nut and saddles, it also definitely reduces the chance of snap/break of the string at the frets.

In my mind this matches logic (any microgroove will act as a file and eat into the strings over time, especially while doing vibrato), as well as experience over _plenty _of guitars.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jan 21, 2021)

groverj3 said:


> This thread is actually pretty timely because I had just sent a guitar in for a stainless refret. I now have it back. Worth every penny.


Can I ask how much this ran you? Over 3 bills?


----------



## dreamspace (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm getting SS frets for all my new guitars. 

With that said, how fast you wear out your frets, boils down to playing style, and what you play. 

I'm used to scalloped fretboards, low action, and light strings. So I also have a very light touch - my 20 year old Fender barely has any signs of playing on the frets. I also spend quite much time all over the fretboard, so there's little extra stress on certain areas. 

Contrast that to a friend of mine, who almost exclusively plays AC/DC, and has a very heavy touch. His brand new Gibson SG Standard needed a refret after 5 years, because he'd worn down frets in A and D-chord pattern.


----------



## profwoot (Jan 21, 2021)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Can I ask how much this ran you? Over 3 bills?



My strat & LP SS refrets from a high-end one-guy shop "The Fret King" in late-2019 ran me a little over $500, but included new custom-made bone nuts and full set-ups, so probably less than $250 each for the actual refret.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jan 21, 2021)

profwoot said:


> My strat & LP SS refrets from a high-end one-guy shop "The Fret King" in late-2019 ran me a little over $500, but included new custom-made bone nuts and full set-ups, so probably less than $250 each for the actual refret.


Nice


----------



## Supernaut (Jan 21, 2021)

Humbuck said:


> I'm waiting for ceramic frets...or cubic zirconia.



I'm going back to wooden frets, for a more natural sound.


----------



## MetalDaze (Jan 21, 2021)

Supernaut said:


> I'm going back to wooden frets, for a more natural sound.



I can’t wait for the debate of which type of wood fret yields the best tone


----------



## groverj3 (Jan 21, 2021)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Can I ask how much this ran you? Over 3 bills?


~$500, from two different guys/shops. One that I will recommend highly and another not so much. The shop I can recommend is Equilibrium Guitar Repair, they're part of Equilibrium Guitars (they make some fantastic stuff). Best fretwork I've ever had done. They didn't bat an eye at doing this on my USA Jackson with a compound radius fretboard. Some shops had suggested re-radiusing the fretboard to a constant one. Which is stupid, and I was never going to pay for a shop to remove one of the features of the guitar that I love.

The other guy I tried, with a much less expensive guitar, charged $450 plus cost of materials. He got the frets on there, but the ends were rough, there was a low fret high up the neck, and I had to spend hours cleaning up his work. Stuff like this is why it's good to entrust only the best with jobs like this.

In both situations that price included a full set-up.

I imagine the price will vary based on location, but not by that much.


----------



## groverj3 (Jan 21, 2021)

GustavoGP said:


> There is a Schecter KM-7 MKI at Reverb (SS frets obviously), look at the outrageously poor condition of some frets:
> View attachment 89282
> View attachment 89283
> 
> ...


This is 100% the guitar getting hit/dropped on the fretboard.


----------



## Frostbite (Jan 21, 2021)

groverj3 said:


> ~$500, from two different guys/shops. One that I will recommend highly and another not so much. The shop I can recommend is Equilibrium Guitar Repair they're part of Equilibrium Guitars (they make some fantastic stuff). Best fretwork I've ever had done. They didn't bat an eye at doing this on my USA Jackson with a compound radius fretboard. Some shops had suggested re-radiusing the fretboard to a constant one. Which is stupid, and I was never going to pay for a shop to remove one of the features of the guitar that I love.
> 
> The other guy I tried, with a much less expensive guitar, charged $450 plus cost of materials. He got the frets on there, but the ends were rough, there was a low fret high up the neck, and I had to spend hours cleaning up his work. Stuff like this is why it's good to entrust only the best with jobs like this.
> 
> ...


Can also vouch for Equilibrium. Ryan's a super nice guy and good at what he does


----------



## Forkface (Jan 21, 2021)

my two cents:
my Schecter CS has stainless frets, my Jcustom does not (neither does my charvel or the strat). I didn't realize the schecter was when i got it. i really dont _feel _any difference while playing.
also, i clean both periodically, so i haven't noticed how regular frets stain or get grimmier or whatever, moreso than stainless.

tbh i think its ridiculous, ive been playing my fender strat for AGES, and while i have indeed noticed wear, regular maintenance keeps it fresh. i dont think shes gonna need a refret for a while (and the thing is from 1991). 

I never look at the fret material when I'm reading spec sheets of new possible purchases. 
i mean sure, its nice to have in the sense that "you wont need a refret in 10 years" or whatever, but frankly, if you own multiple guitars (im assuming most of us in the forum do) id be hard pressed to put so many miles onto a single one to warrant a refret.


----------



## gunch (Jan 21, 2021)

I think how much you tap, vibrato and do hammer ons plays a role in this


----------



## Spicypickles (Jan 21, 2021)

Bends for sure. I animal style my frets, they wear pretty quick in very specific spots.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 21, 2021)

Thomas Mims said:


> Do you have have sonar hearing or have you grown antennae that can pick up frequencies past 15k? Most humans I feel have no ability to hear a major difference in what frets are being used.



The reason I defend SS having zero change in tone apart from refretting two guitars is because I have abnormal hearing and a form of hyperacusis to treble that despite working with power tools and heavy machinery has gotten worse(or better depending how you look at it) as I get older. I find a microwave beep uncomfortable so I can confidently say I’d notice if my guitars suddenly had a harsh clanky treble sound after a fret material change.


----------



## Dooky (Jan 21, 2021)

It's all in keeping with the current guitar trend of the time, like:
Mid 2000's - "Ah, it's got a Basswood body. Terrible tonewood. Won't be buying".
Late 2000's - "Why the EMGs? Horrible pickups. Won't be buying".
Those two were big ones. I remember hoards of people complaining if a guitar had one of those specs back in the day.


----------



## profwoot (Feb 15, 2021)

profwoot said:


> My strat & LP SS refrets from a high-end one-guy shop "The Fret King" in late-2019 ran me a little over $500, but included new custom-made bone nuts and full set-ups, so probably less than $250 each for the actual refret.



Found the receipt for this doing some organization and turns out I had remembered it wrong. It was like double what I had said -- about $1k total, so like $475 each for the SS refrets. He is a top-of-the-line guy though so I'm sure it's not the norm.


----------



## Thomas Mims (Feb 17, 2021)

profwoot said:


> Found the receipt for this doing some organization and turns out I had remembered it wrong. It was like double what I had said -- about $1k total, so like $475 each for the SS refrets. He is a top-of-the-line guy though so I'm sure it's not the norm.


I’d be interested in that actually one day for some of my more sentimental guitars .


----------



## odibrom (Feb 17, 2021)

So, today I finished (well, the luthiers did) a run of refrets for stainless steel on 3 of my guitars, which are now 4 in total with these frets.

I think I sound better, there's less struggle to get the notes ringing, which makes it feel effortless to play and clearly hearing every single note, either picked, hammered or pulled of. I've got a few more guitars I'll do treatment, but since they're not my most used ones, I'll let it slide for a while.

This was a €600+ job, phased in 3 times during the last month and 1/2. More or less 2 weeks per guitar, depending on the service they had in hands. All I can say is that all guitars feel similar in play, action and setup. I feel I can do whatever with any of these. They feel new like guitars every fucking time I pick one up, even if with 8 to 10 months old strings in one of them (the first to receive the refret, last year in May/June).

If this fits one's budget, it is in my opinion a recommended upgrade.


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 18, 2021)

odibrom said:


> So, today I finished (well, the luthiers did) a run of refrets for stainless steel on 3 of my guitars, which are now 4 in total with these frets.
> 
> I think I sound better, there's less struggle to get the notes ringing, which makes it feel effortless to play and clearly hearing every single note, either picked, hammered or pulled of. I've got a few more guitars I'll do treatment, but since they're not my most used ones, I'll let it slide for a while.
> 
> ...


It's definitely something I'd do immediately if I knew I'd keep the guitar forever. Otherwise, I'd had it done instead of a fret leveling when something needs one.


----------



## odibrom (Feb 18, 2021)

groverj3 said:


> It's definitely something I'd do immediately if I knew I'd keep the guitar forever. (...)



This is an excellent point, whether or not to refret when one is unsure to keep the guitar downwards. Well, in my opinion it is mod that increases the value of a guitar for all the reasons point out already, so if 2 of the same guitars are in sale and one has this mod, it probably should have a higher price tag...? However, if the price to pay for such mod is $400 (just for reference), should the difference in price of both guitars be of the same value? Food for thought...


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 18, 2021)

odibrom said:


> This is an excellent point, whether or not to refret when one is unsure to keep the guitar downwards. Well, in my opinion it is mod that increases the value of a guitar for all the reasons point out already, so if 2 of the same guitars are in sale and one has this mod, it probably should have a higher price tag...? However, if the price to pay for such mod is $400 (just for reference), should the difference in price of both guitars be of the same value? Food for thought...



It adds about as much as any mod, which is to say...it depends. 

A refret isn't a guarantee as far as quality, so unless the job can be verified in person, or there's proof it was done by an A++ shop it really means nothing. 

It also depends on the buyer. I can do a refret in an afternoon and it'll cost me about $30 in materials, and I know it'll be done right.


----------



## odibrom (Feb 18, 2021)

... when you know, you know, when you don't, you pay for it...


----------



## yan12 (Feb 18, 2021)

I love SS frets and don't notice any change in tone. If I did it would be unplugged. I am not convinced my pickups "pickup" any new frequencies or overtones as they are taking input from the strings not the frets. But I have noticed if I change string brand my tone is very different, especially amplified. I would not refret a guitar with lots of life left to just have SS, but when the refret was needed I would go SS.


----------



## profwoot (Feb 18, 2021)

Thomas Mims said:


> I’d be interested in that actually one day for some of my more sentimental guitars .



highly recommended. My strat and LP are forever keepers now (not that I've been playing them that often lately, but I still love having the strat & LP categories taken care of).


----------



## protest (Feb 20, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> The reason I defend SS having zero change in tone apart from refretting two guitars is because I have abnormal hearing and a form of hyperacusis to treble that despite working with power tools and heavy machinery has gotten worse(or better depending how you look at it) as I get older. I find a microwave beep uncomfortable so I can confidently say I’d notice if my guitars suddenly had a harsh clanky treble sound after a fret material change.



I can hear above 15,000hz. It's why I play with ear plugs in basically regardless of volume level. The sound of my dad's hearing aids turning off/on is awful. 

I have 3 guitars with stainless frets. One was a nightmare finding pickups for that would tame the high end, the other is normal bright, and the other is darker. Basically the difference isn't coming from the frets, at least not frets alone.


----------



## Wizard of Ozz (Feb 20, 2021)

$500?!?! for a SS fret job????

Does that include a blow-job as well. 

Way overpriced.


----------



## technomancer (Feb 20, 2021)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> $500?!?! for a SS fret job????
> 
> Does that include a blow-job as well.
> 
> Way overpriced.



Who are you using that does a good job that's less?


----------



## odibrom (Feb 20, 2021)

protest said:


> I can hear above 15,000hz. It's why I play with ear plugs in basically regardless of volume level. The sound of my dad's hearing aids turning off/on is awful.
> 
> I have 3 guitars with stainless frets. One was a nightmare finding pickups for that would tame the high end, the other is normal bright, and the other is darker. Basically the difference isn't coming from the frets, at least not frets alone.



Probably different types of pots used on them...?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 20, 2021)

Pricing for fretwork is meaningless without more info. Binding alone can add an additional $100 to $200, same with board material, if it's finished, other services included, etc. 

Full refrets on a newish rosewood boarded Strat are going to different than on an old Les Paul Custom.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Feb 20, 2021)

technomancer said:


> Who are you using that does a good job that's less?



It cost me $320 through Stockwell Guitars back when they would perform refrets on customer guitars.

$50 - Fret Install
$150 - Fret Leveling/Crowning
$120 - Ball Rounded Fret Ends

Did it on my RG550 and it turned out incredibly well, prices vary. Local to me now is Philtone Guitars, and his refrets start at $300.

http://www.philtone.com/refrets.html

If I wanted a Refret on my Caparison TAT, it would cost me $450 at a minimum through him to convert it to Stainless whenever I (or if I) ever wear the stock nickel frets down.


----------



## Wizard of Ozz (Feb 21, 2021)

technomancer said:


> Who are you using that does a good job that's less?




Someone that doesn't charge $500 for a SS fret job. A fool and his money....


----------



## technomancer (Feb 21, 2021)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Someone that doesn't charge $500 for a SS fret job. A fool and his money....



So nobody you've actually used then? Was a serious question.


----------



## Wizard of Ozz (Feb 21, 2021)

technomancer said:


> So nobody you've actually used then? Was a serious question.




So was my response. There are several luthiers I've used that don't charge $500 for a fret job. Well known ones at that. I don't need to spam their businesses as they are doing just fine on their own. 

I don't recommend Philtone in Baltimore, MD. Do some homework before sending him anything.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Feb 21, 2021)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> So was my response. There are several luthiers I've used that don't charge $500 for a fret job. Well known ones at that. I don't need to spam their businesses as they are doing just fine on their own.
> 
> I don't recommend Philtone in Baltimore, MD. Do some homework before sending him anything.



Would be helpful if you provided some of that knowledge you seem to have, and Technomancer was asking for literal examples like how I provided. 

Your response is effectively, "Why yes, luthiers do exist who perform great fretwork, and some of those charge less than $500! But I don't feel like giving them a proper recommendation because they're doing just fine".


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 22, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> If I wanted a Refret on my Caparison TAT, it would cost me $450 at a minimum through him to convert it to Stainless whenever I (or if I) ever wear the stock nickel frets down.



$450 is within the margin of error for this and regional variation. That's a "$500 job." My $500 refret had the added complication of being on a compound radius, binding, and on a neck-through. Otherwise, it would've been $400. I'm honestly fine with paying that much for this job. It's hard to find a shop to trust.

There's a slight added complication on the Capy. Similar to my SL2H that I had refretted, they have compound radius fretboards. Mentioning that to shops will result in varied reactions:

"We can't do it, aren't equipped."
"We can do it... Where does it switch from the first to the second radius?" (Run far, far away)
"We can do it, and we'll tack on $200+." (They don't want to do it, run far, far away)
"We can do it." (No explanation, be highly skeptical)
"We can do it, but only if the fretboard radius is still consistent and requires no correction." (I went this route because I couldn't find the best option below)
"We can do it, here's exactly how we handle it, including correcting minor humps that can develop over time without ruining the compound radius or turning it into a straight radius." (A true unicorn)

This was my experience. Luckily, I didn't need any fretboard humps or S-curves sanded out, but these aren't uncommon, even on high end stuff.


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 22, 2021)

To add to my previous post, when I was looking into places to do this work I'll put some shops into those categories. For compound radius stuff.

Equilibrium Guitars here in Boston will do it, but only if they think it will turn out well without sanding the fretboard to correct any inconsistencies in radius.

Aperio will do it and explain that if they do they'll try not to touch the fretboard. If it needs it they'll say they can sand those out by hand if it's not too extreme. They'll prefer to correct in the fret leveling if possible. They actually sent me a lengthy email describing that they're confident it would turn out very good, but with the disclaimer that hand sanding the fretboard isn't "perfect" if it needs to be done. They actually inspire a lot of confidence due to their communication.

Philtone gave me a "yes, I can correct fretboard issues during the process if required" with no further explanation. That did not inspire confidence. I have heard good things about the quality of his work, though people indicated they've waited insane amounts of time and when I inquired about this a few months ago he apparently knew this and wasn't taking any new work.

I went to Equilibrium because they're up the road from me. They did a great job, despite their reservations and let me know that the fretboard was without any significant imperfections. And it took less than two weeks.


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 22, 2021)

This thread makes me think we need a listing of repair shops and reviews around here. It's hard to find a shop to trust with various jobs, especially when you don't have a go-to. Like when I was new in Boston this fall.

I trust the opinion of the average SS.org member a lot more than some random people writing google or Yelp reviews.


----------



## USMarine75 (Feb 22, 2021)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> $500?!?! for a SS fret job????
> 
> Does that include a blow-job as well.
> 
> Way overpriced.



I too would like the name and number for this happy ending luthier shop.

Asking for a friend.


----------



## Winspear (Feb 22, 2021)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> $500?!?! for a SS fret job????
> 
> Does that include a blow-job as well.
> 
> Way overpriced.



That's really quite a standard price - though certainly no need to pay more


----------



## soliloquy (Feb 23, 2021)

Maybe its been answered before, but i'll ask anyways:

the LTD EC 1K line is starting to have stainless steel frets put in starting 2021 onwards.
if we want this specific fret, how can we avoid the 'old stock' from sites or stores that dont have the SS frets yet?
sure, read the specs, but specs are often wrong. 

anything else that can be done? kind of toying with the idea of either an EC 256 or EC1001T in snow white/alpine white and mod it up.


----------



## mbardu (Feb 23, 2021)

soliloquy said:


> Maybe its been answered before, but i'll ask anyways:
> 
> the LTD EC 1K line is starting to have stainless steel frets put in starting 2021 onwards.
> if we want this specific fret, how can we avoid the 'old stock' from sites or stores that dont have the SS frets yet?
> ...



For an easy way to tell, aren't the new ones coming in different finishes anyway? 
Or are we thinking they'd keep the old models/finishes but change their specs to add stainless steel frets there? I had not understood it that way.


----------



## soliloquy (Feb 23, 2021)

mbardu said:


> For an easy way to tell, aren't the new ones coming in different finishes anyway?
> Or are we thinking they'd keep the old models/finishes but change their specs to add stainless steel frets there? I had not understood it that way.



i could be wrong, but my understanding is that ALL 1000 series and equivalents are getting the SS frets.
meaning the vintage black, or silverburt, or alpine white etc, the classic finishes that had been around for a while, they all will get the SS frets too. 

i could be wrong in my understanding though. As per your understanding, they will phase out the old stock and finishes completely, in favor for the new finsihes.


----------



## mbardu (Feb 23, 2021)

soliloquy said:


> i could be wrong, but my understanding is that ALL 1000 series and equivalents are getting the SS frets.
> meaning the vintage black, or silverburt, or alpine white etc, the classic finishes that had been around for a while, they all will get the SS frets too.
> 
> i could be wrong in my understanding though. As per your understanding, they will phase out the old stock and finishes completely, in favor for the new finsihes.



If that's the case then sign me up for one turquoise H3-1000 and one poplar EC-1000.


----------



## I play music (Feb 23, 2021)

soliloquy said:


> i could be wrong, but my understanding is that ALL 1000 series and equivalents are getting the SS frets.
> meaning the vintage black, or silverburt, or alpine white etc, the classic finishes that had been around for a while, they all will get the SS frets too.
> 
> i could be wrong in my understanding though. As per your understanding, they will phase out the old stock and finishes completely, in favor for the new finsihes.


I think only the new models come with SS frets .. or they would announce that BIIIG I'm sure .. but haven't seen an announcement like that


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Feb 23, 2021)

soliloquy said:


> Maybe its been answered before, but i'll ask anyways:
> 
> the LTD EC 1K line is starting to have stainless steel frets put in starting 2021 onwards.
> if we want this specific fret, how can we avoid the 'old stock' from sites or stores that dont have the SS frets yet?
> ...



If you communicate with an ESP/LTD Dealer that can check on their inventory and personally answer questions for you. You can ask them to verify these details and the production date of the guitar to verify if it's post SS Frets or not.

Best bet is to order a backordered finish/model, the change is reflecting the 2021 lineup. If it's built at this point it should definitely have the fret update.


----------



## InfernalVortex (Feb 23, 2021)

For the record I just had two of my 20 year old RGs refretted at Aperio and he was willing to get a 17” radius block for me since I asked about it. Was a great experience. I just got them back a couple of weeks ago.

Like Groverj3 I went with the local luthier and Aperio is driving distance for me. But there are many luthiers around, I went to him because of the great communication. I didn’t care what it cost or even that it was SS frets. I just wanted good work. The fact that he was pretty reasonably priced and specializes in SS frets was a nice bonus.

Took 3.5 weeks for two guitars. He even emailed at 3 weeks with a status update. He will be getting all my refret work going forward, but any NEW guitars I get will have stainless frets from here on. I’m sold on them.


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 24, 2021)

InfernalVortex said:


> For the record I just had two of my 20 year old RGs refretted at Aperio and he was willing to get a 17” radius block for me since I asked about it. Was a great experience. I just got them back a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> Like Groverj3 I went with the local luthier and Aperio is driving distance for me. But there are many luthiers around, I went to him because of the great communication. I didn’t care what it cost or even that it was SS frets. I just wanted good work. The fact that he was pretty reasonably priced and specializes in SS frets was a nice bonus.
> 
> Took 3.5 weeks for two guitars. He even emailed at 3 weeks with a status update. He will be getting all my refret work going forward, but any NEW guitars I get will have stainless frets from here on. I’m sold on them.


They seem like the place to go based on reputation and communication if someone doesn't have a good local option.


----------



## soliloquy (Feb 24, 2021)

mbardu said:


> If that's the case then sign me up for one turquoise H3-1000 and one poplar EC-1000.



so, perhaps you are right.
As per AGUFISH (youtube personality), Each and EVERY 1000 series or equivalent will be getting the SS frets.
As per the ESP website, it seems that either: 1) its ONLY the new finishes for 2021 ONLY or 2) the old finishes will EVENTUALLY get the SS frets, but its not confirmed yet.

my issue with 2 is that it makes no sense for them to offer one option for finish one, but second option for finish 2, especially if they are made in the same factories, and are getting the same parts and all from the same sources (apparently). 

unless the SS are being done in a different location?


----------



## mbardu (Feb 24, 2021)

soliloquy said:


> so, perhaps you are right.
> As per AGUFISH (youtube personality), Each and EVERY 1000 series or equivalent will be getting the SS frets.
> As per the ESP website, it seems that either: 1) its ONLY the new finishes for 2021 ONLY or 2) the old finishes will EVENTUALLY get the SS frets, but its not confirmed yet.
> 
> ...



That's the thing though, the 1000s are made all over the place, not in a single factory.
The new ones could very well be made in Indo with Stainless steel frets while the existing models remain unchanged on a production line in Korea or whatever.


----------



## mlp187 (Feb 24, 2021)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> So was my response. There are several luthiers I've used that don't charge $500 for a fret job. Well known ones at that. I don't need to spam their businesses as they are doing just fine on their own.
> 
> I don't recommend Philtone in Baltimore, MD. Do some homework before sending him anything.


You wouldn’t be spamming, you would be promoting. 
I really don’t understand your line of thinking. Please help me understand.


----------



## soliloquy (Feb 24, 2021)

mbardu said:


> That's the thing though, the 1000s are made all over the place, not in a single factory.
> The new ones could very well be made in Indo with Stainless steel frets while the existing models remain unchanged on a production line in Korea or whatever.



if that is the case, then guitars like the NW-44 should also get SS frets as its also made in Indonesia.

Moreover, its interesting that they are using Indonesia as an experimental ground. And that Stainless Steel is usually considered a more 'higher end' feature, thus surprised that Korea wont be taking this on at this time.


----------



## mbardu (Feb 24, 2021)

soliloquy said:


> if that is the case, then guitars like the NW-44 should also get SS frets as its also made in Indonesia.
> 
> Moreover, its interesting that they are using Indonesia as an experimental ground. And that Stainless Steel is usually considered a more 'higher end' feature, thus surprised that Korea wont be taking this on at this time.



I just made Indonesia vs Korea as a figure of speech, not specifically that I knew where the new guitars are made; it could very well be the other way around, or all Indo in the future for all I know. There have actually even been instances where the same models has been produce in different countries. Doesn't really matter, my point was just that we couldn't know for sure that making some 1000s with stainless steel frets meant all 1000s would automatically go stainless steel frets as a result.


----------

