# Any ideas how to stop the volume battle at practice?



## levitator (Aug 30, 2013)

we're set up in a medium sized basement for practice and it always seems to be incredibly loud! we're set up as such: (from left to right) 

vocal pa - guitar 1 (half stack) - drums - Bass (four 10) - guitar 2 (HS) vocal PA

all facing same direction. no monitors. and i understand that i'm not going to be able to hear the other guitar sometimes being all the way over there with no monitor.

Just wondering...where should we even start to get a good mix?
bass and drums? then build on that? our drummer is a heavy handed dude too.


----------



## VBCheeseGrater (Aug 30, 2013)

I'm far from a pro sound guy, but here's whats helped us....spread everyone out, including their rigs, as much as possible.

Once you do that, before you play your first song at practice, address the issue. Tell everyone to turn down a good deal, and we can come up as needed. They will probably realize it sounds better.

Another thing is to check your frequencies for each instrument. If your bassist has his mids cranked and both guitarists have thunderous low end, it's going to clash and cause folks to want to turn up. Try to get some frequency separation amongst bass and guitars. I find killing some low end in vocals helps too.


----------



## tedtan (Aug 30, 2013)

In addition, if you have your amps behind you, try putting them across the room facing towards you so you can hear them better. That way you should be able to turn them down quite a bit and still hear them properly.


----------



## larry (Aug 30, 2013)

talk to everybody, make sure you're all on the same page about the volume issue and reassure the guitarists & bassist that turning down absolutely does not hurt and then:

-shields around the drummer
-dynamic mics on everyone
-upgraded PA with mains facing the band
-level the amps just enough to achieve the desired response 
-let the PA handle fidelity & volume
-ear plugs 
or 
-iem's (in which case, mains would be unnecessary..)

this costs some cash, but if you buy used and work together it shouldn't be too difficult. it's worth it because you'll learn a lot by running your own FOH setup. this will make it easier on your relationships with other sound techs when you play out. you'll also get a better feel for what you actually sound like and in turn be able to dial things in should it they need improvement. imo, fidelity is essential for practice. why even bother if no one can hear what's happening clearly??


----------



## GunpointMetal (Aug 30, 2013)

small mixer, headphones, multichannel headphone amp...done! then you'll all have to TURN DOWN so you can hear the drummer over your headphones


----------



## noUser01 (Aug 30, 2013)

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with getting everyone together for an hour or two JUST to tweak your band sound so everyone is EQ'd the best they can be for clarity. I highly recommend this.


----------



## Lokasenna (Aug 31, 2013)

Making sure that the amps are actually pointed at your EARS helps a lot, since the usual setup is to have your cabinet a few feet behind you aimed at the back of your knees. Move it a little farther away, wedge something under the front to tilt it up a bit.

Even better, as someone said above, try to set the cabinets up where the front corners of your theoretical stage would be and have them pointed back at you and the rest of the band. From this position, if the speakers are pointed straight at you, you should hear yourself better than anyone else, and everyone else should hear you reasonably well too.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime (Aug 31, 2013)

I'd set up your amps and stuff in a soft U shape so that they're pointed AT you a bit more and so that the people on the other side from you will get more of your sound and vise versa


----------



## tyler_faith_08 (Aug 31, 2013)

We used to stand in-between our amps, facing my amp which was tunred down, while the other was facing our backs and was facing the drummer and was loud enough for the him to hear. This way, he heard what he needed and we heard everything without blowing the walls down.


----------



## getaway_fromme (Sep 2, 2013)

E-kit and JamHub. Saved my life. Really the BEST sound for a practice. Ever. no fighting for levels. All set per set of headphones. Genius. Never have I spoken so little at rehearsal....


----------



## Winspear (Sep 2, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with getting everyone together for an hour or two JUST to tweak your band sound so everyone is EQ'd the best they can be for clarity. I highly recommend this.



Absolutely. If you've ever mixed anything you understand what a problem frequency masking can be, causing the same volume battle which really just needs EQ to solve. Too many bands (I'm guilty myself) just all turn up to practice with their own individual sounds that sound huge and awesome by themselves but just fill up the mix. Thin things out a bit.

And as said, working on positioning..Also consider things like raising cabs to ear level/angling etc.


----------



## tyler_faith_08 (Sep 2, 2013)

EtherealEntity said:


> And as said, working on positioning..Also consider things like raising cabs to ear level/angling etc.


 
Good stuff here, but keep in mind how you're going to perceive the sound on stage. I tried angling my cab back at practice and it did help, but I didn't like it. <-preference

Now on stage, keep in mind that the people directly in front of your rig are hearing the hell out of you and not as much as the rest of the band. When I was a bouncer, I used to have a fair amount of bands/friends come through that would angle theirs all up to just over the immediate crowd yet still below the band's head so that everything was heard and not over-powering. In addition, the guys on the second floor balcony were getting a perfect balanced sound from the whole band.


----------



## RevDrucifer (Sep 4, 2013)

Every practice starts with a volume discussion. In one year's time, we practiced ONCE at a lower volume than usual. My drummer knows he's too damn loud but it's not in him to change....at all. My other guitarist has pretty much the complete opposite tone of mine, he's all about the scooped mids and what I'd consider way too much distortion, but it still sounds great....(it's a Mesa, so it does that job just fine).

But therein lies the volume issue. I've got a Cantrell kinda tone and he's got a more mushy, Petrucci with a looser right hand kinda thing goin' on. So I'm constantly cutting over his, at much less volume. Sounds ....ing great when the mix is right though.

One year has been enough for me to realize that with these members of my band, the volume will always be an issue. Doesn't matter how much I plead with the guys....I gotta crank the .... out of my vocal mic if I'm going to sing properly, so everything bleeds into that as well. 

Actually, the bleeding is kind of cool because at the end of most of the tunes when we all end at once, the verb on my mic just rings out that last downbeat.


----------



## Sebazz1998 (Sep 21, 2013)

In my band we are trying to get a little mixer to solve this problem seems like the best way to go


----------



## Leveebreaks (Sep 21, 2013)

Practice in a circle like Metallica do, and as Lokasenna said, put your cabs on a crate or something or tip them backwards so they are not aimed at the backs of your knees. It'll cut some of the mushy bass frquencies by doing this as well, which can't be a bad thing. This only really works if you have the room for it though, wasn't sure what you meant by "medium" in terms of square footage.


----------



## sage (Sep 23, 2013)

The sound of an amp starts to really blossom at about 10-12 feet away. Almost all bands play with each member's rig adjacent to them. This leads you to be able to hear your bandmates really well, but not yourself. If you have the space, put your amps farther away. If you don't have the space, switch the amps locations around so that you're actually farthest from your own rig. Betcha $5 the other guitarist asks you to either turn your amp up or turn his down so he can hear you better. Also, start setting volumes with the bass. Get the drummer going and dial in the bassist until you can hear them both equally. Then get the vocals up to a listenable level. Then fill in with the guitars. It's a terrible thing to discover, but it doesn't take nearly as much guitar to fill in a mix as you think it does.


----------



## UCBmetal (Oct 10, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with getting everyone together for an hour or two JUST to tweak your band sound so everyone is EQ'd the best they can be for clarity. I highly recommend this.




Absolutely. Specifically for guitar purposes, using a clean as possible tone is HUGELY helpful. Based on my not-insignificant cramped rehearsal room experience, keeping your gain low and your mids high will allow you to cut through a great deal in a live mix without having to jack up your volume.


----------



## Lokasenna (Oct 13, 2013)

Translation: When dialing in your tone, get your gain to the level of bite and saturation that sounds ....ing awesome, and then dial it back just enough that your ears are saying "dude, I think you need a boost or some shit". It might sound a bit weaker by itself, but as a band you'll have a much clearer sound.


----------



## WhiteWalls (Oct 13, 2013)

Get some random furniture and elevate the cabs to ear level. Not only it will sound clearer because you hear directly from the cab and not from the reverbs of the room, but it will be impossible for anyone to keep the volume too high unless they want to go deaf


----------



## TheEmptyCell (Oct 14, 2013)

If your drummer plays stupid hard, get him some Hot Rods or brushes. This will help cut down his volume drastically. Or get some mutes for his kit.

Once he's 'turned down', get him to play as hard as he can, and then start adding in your instruments. Make sure your EQ's aren't wreaking havoc on each other. A mid-scoop on any instrument is gonna mean they're going to have to turn up more and be muddy without cutting through the mix. 

Just because someone has killer tonez when playing in the bedroom does not mean it will translate to being band friendly. 

Make sure speakers are firing towards your ears, not your ankles. Whether that means tilting everthing back with some shit under the front of your cabs, or using a milk crate, or an actual stand, just get the sound to your ears.


----------



## The Munk (Oct 14, 2013)

One thing that has worked well for one of my bands is running our signal to both sides of our drummer so that each of us has a cabinet( or at least half of a stereo cab) on each side of the room. Our bass player runs a cab on both sides as well. This allows everyone to hear what everyone else is playing, regardless of where you stand in the room, without the need to turn up very loud at all. 
If you are a fan of a good stereo sound, this beats having your stereo sound only on your side.
This also allows us to rehearse the same way that we would set up live.


----------



## robare99 (Nov 3, 2013)

Turn down. Have the drummer play for the room. He doesn't have to kill the kit. 

When I gig I use a 100W JCM800 into a 212 cab. When we practice I use a teeny Marshall CD10. It's not tonal nirvana but it IS a practice, not a gig.


----------



## Ckackley (Nov 3, 2013)

Another vote for a Jamhub. We got one and I have never been happier. We even wound up making it the focal point of our live set up. A couple of rackmount DI's that split the signal and we have personalized In Ear mixes and a 10' snake that goes to the sound guy. Never has set up been nicer..


----------



## TemjinStrife (Nov 3, 2013)

Fewer bandmates, less gain.


----------



## AliceLG (Nov 4, 2013)

I solved this problem with my current band from a medical point of view in 5 minutes. I showed up with an SPL meter to practice and told the drummer to just hit it hard and heavy. She racked up to 100dB without a sweat. We got our amps up to peak at about 95dB when hitting hard and boosting the lead channels, so the average would be around 92dB. Then we popped on our earplugs and it was total bliss.

We also have the amps setup to each side of the drumkit, facing inwards, and we stand about 3-4 feet away from each amps, so everything is loud and clear. No vocals yet so no PA shenanigans for now. Since both guitarists have really mid-heavy-almost-no-bass EQs we don't have any clashing issues along the mix.


----------



## Sebazz1998 (Nov 4, 2013)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/li...ow-we-improved-sound-drastically-my-band.html


----------



## BenSolace (Nov 4, 2013)

Everyone get Axe FX's 

Naw, I kid, but in all honesty the first time my band came to rehearsals with all direct gear (bass included), the sound was like night and day than with our loud amps (which we no longer own!).

I do recall from our ex. other guitarist using some Line 6 100 watt spider head barf in conjunction with my Triaxis/ENGL rig that he would always boost the low end and chug away with a stupid grin on his face as the walls caved in, knowing full well that it completely ruined the mix . Many a time did I have a scrubs fantasy moment of !

The band have to understand how a good mix comes together, and what frequencies they should be cutting/boosting etc. Truth is, however, that some people just can't be educated, as they can't imagine their sound being any good in the mix if it sounds sh*i*t on it's own. As it has been said in this thread, there is nothing wrong with getting together *purely* for the sake of getting a great mix. Hell, my band pretty much only does that these days, as we've rehearsed all our current material to death!


----------



## RevDrucifer (Nov 7, 2013)

A gun.


----------



## eyeswide (Nov 14, 2013)

levitator said:


> Just wondering...where should we even start to get a good mix?
> bass and drums? then build on that? our drummer is a heavy handed dude too.



Don't worry about getting a musical mix - worry on getting a pragmatic mix that allows you to focus on your own playing. First, start by putting your amps on chairs. All of them. If everyone likes to blast sound at their knee-caps, they aren't going to hear their own amp, but the other guys will hear tons of it. Putting it at ear level allows you to lower the volume, as your sound is going directly into your ears (where hearing protection).

If you guys can't get past the idea of not jamming to a musical mix, you aren't going anywhere. If the guitarist (or any member) "has to be the loudest person, because that's how the music should sound", you're already ....ed, as this mentality doesn't provide appropriate room for development.

Beyond that, you could spend a couple grand on IEM's for everyone with personal mixes, then everyone wins. The price tag is high, but honestly, this is the best thing that has ever happened to my band's jams. There is no volume war because everyone controls what they want to hear. Everybody wins.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Nov 14, 2013)

In Ears don't have to be expensive, especially if you're not gonna rely on them for performance.
We got some of these Koolertron IEM to use for practice, and though a little noisy at times when there is no signal coming through, they work just fine over short distances. For the price you can get one transmitter and several receivers and do a fair mix for everyone.


----------



## ElRay (Nov 14, 2013)

There's also the "Jam Hub" products:













Ray


----------



## Pat Olson (Nov 18, 2013)

VBCheeseGrater said:


> I'm far from a pro sound guy, but here's whats helped us....spread everyone out, including their rigs, as much as possible.
> Once you do that, before you play your first song at practice, address the issue. Tell everyone to turn down a good deal, and we can come up as needed. They will probably realize it sounds better.
> 
> Another thing is to check your frequencies for each instrument. If your bassist has his mids cranked and both guitarists have thunderous low end, it's going to clash and cause folks to want to turn up. Try to get some frequency separation amongst bass and guitars. I find killing some low end in vocals helps too.



Great ideas! Thank you


----------



## Sam Scarrott (Nov 18, 2013)

Yeah just get everyone to turn down is a good start. Do parts clash frequency wise? Are both guitars playing the same chord voicings? Stuff like that makes a difference.


----------

