# All amp sim plugins sound horrible.



## EJJS (Dec 15, 2020)

Yeah, that title will upset some people.


Okay, so this thread is not what it sounds like.

I actually have a problem with amp sims sounding really really muffled.

Now, I could say it's because the amp sim has for example bad cab ir's but the problem is this is happening with all amp sims. Every. Single. One.

Fortin Nameless. Check. Fortin NTS. Check. Archetype Plini. Check. Fortin Cali Suite. Check. Mercuriall reaxis. Check.

Name any well known amp sim plugin, it sounds super muffled. I have a drive folder where I have 2 clips. I will update it later when I have time from school.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

Drive link: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1DtC47rHw6udw1J4-VleryEFPBNuF-Ck0

Edit: Listening back to the clips, my own preset sounds somewhat fine but still most amp sims sound really weird. I'll get ya guys some more clips when I have time. Btw that plugin was the Archetype Plini with the electric sunshine-riff preset.


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## nickgray (Dec 15, 2020)

EJJS said:


> If you have any questions, feel free to ask!



Sorry dude, but this is a classic case of not providing any relevant info. What is your chain like? Are you using a sound card with high impedance inputs (aka HI-Z or instrument input)? Impedance mismatch (passive pups into line input) causes massive high end frequency loss. What is your monitoring setup? What kind of headphones/speakers? Have you tried a different guitar? Have you tried a different cable? You're sure that volume and tone knobs are all the way up?

Also, you really should provide a DI too, if the issue is in the DI signal, other people can hear it and diagnose it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Sorry dude, but this is a classic case of not providing any relevant info. What is your chain like? Are you using a sound card with high impedance inputs (aka HI-Z or instrument input)? Impedance mismatch (passive pups into line input) causes massive high end frequency loss. What is your monitoring setup? What kind of headphones/speakers? Have you tried a different guitar? Have you tried a different cable? You're sure that volume and tone knobs are all the way up?
> 
> Also, you really should provide a DI too, if the issue is in the DI signal, other people can hear it and diagnose it.



All of this


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## EJJS (Dec 15, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Sorry dude, but this is a classic case of not providing any relevant info. What is your chain like? Are you using a sound card with high impedance inputs (aka HI-Z or instrument input)? Impedance mismatch (passive pups into line input) causes massive high end frequency loss. What is your monitoring setup? What kind of headphones/speakers? Have you tried a different guitar? Have you tried a different cable? You're sure that volume and tone knobs are all the way up?
> 
> Also, you really should provide a DI too, if the issue is in the DI signal, other people can hear it and diagnose it.


My signal chain is guitar>Focusrite scarlett solo 3rd gen hi-z input> Laptop.
I use AKG k845bt Headphones. Not the best for this kind of stuff but should be good enough. I only have 1 electric guitar and a bass. I also have only 1 cable but it's shortest I could find and made by MXR, so it should be good? Volume and tone knobs are all the way up.


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## nickgray (Dec 15, 2020)

EJJS said:


> My signal chain is guitar>Focusrite scarlett solo 3rd gen hi-z input> Laptop



Alright, so at least there's that, you shouldn't have any DI signal problems. I do agree that your factory preset sounds very dark, and your own preset is better in this regard. But you didn't answer - what are you monitoring on? If you have dark sounding headphones, coupled with dark sounding tones you'll be getting something very muffled sounding indeed.



EJJS said:


> Name any well known amp sim plugin, it sounds super muffled



I think what you really meant to say is: the presets sound super muffled on your particular config. I actually agree, I don't really use presets, but a lot of IRs do sound a bit anemic to me, I prefer bright tones myself. That being said, somewhat muffled guitar tones are very common in modern productions, for some reason people are afraid of old school style bright tones and hi cut the shit out of their sound.

In any case, you shouldn't worry about this at all. Presets suck. Just find your own IRs that you like and dial everything yourself. Hell, I have Helix, and the recent update had lots of presets done by pro artists. All of them sound like shit (Helix' stock cabs contribute to that heavily, but even then, the gain on every single high gain preset is cranked way too high for me for example). Presets just suck for guitar sims, too much depends on your entire chain, playing style, and personal preference.


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## EJJS (Dec 15, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Alright, so at least there's that, you shouldn't have any DI signal problems. I do agree that your factory preset sounds very dark, and your own preset is better in this regard. But you didn't answer - what are you monitoring on? If you have dark sounding headphones, coupled with dark sounding tones you'll be getting something very muffled sounding indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, the presets do suck indeed. I probably gotta invest in some good cab IR's. Most of the free ones I have tried also sound really dark. Other than the catharsis impulses which sound quite good. Any recommendations?


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## EJJS (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm also getting a new guitar next year so we shall see if that helps. I thought maybe they are the EMG HZ's on my guitar that sound really dark but then again some people say they are brittle and thin sounding. I have a SD invader in my drawer but no way that would help LOL.


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## nickgray (Dec 15, 2020)

EJJS said:


> Any recommendations?



Ownhammer, Bogren Digital, York Audio, ML Sound Labs.


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## EJJS (Dec 15, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Ownhammer, Bogren Digital, York Audio, ML Sound Labs.


Hmm, thats interesting. I have tried the ML sound labs MIKKO trial version and it's the same thing again. it's even worse with the ML sound labs Best free IR ever.


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## nickgray (Dec 15, 2020)

EJJS said:


> Hmm, thats interesting. I have tried the ML sound labs MIKKO trial version and it's the same thing again. it's even worse with the ML sound labs Best free IR ever.



Upload a .wav file of your DI tone, just play a riff or two.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

EJJS said:


> Hmm, thats interesting. I have tried the ML sound labs MIKKO trial version and it's the same thing again. it's even worse with the ML sound labs Best free IR ever.



Check your inbox.


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## EJJS (Dec 16, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Upload a .wav file of your DI tone, just play a riff or two.


Done! It's in the Drive.


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## EJJS (Dec 16, 2020)

Also I just realized my tone pot is either crap or broken. It seems to just work as a on/off switch. Maybe that is cutting the higher frequencies. Might need to try to clean it or bypass it and go straight to the output jack.


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## nickgray (Dec 16, 2020)

EJJS said:


> Done! It's in the Drive.



There's nothing wrong with the DI, you're just not tweaking the VSTs correctly. Here's a quick demo:

https://vocaroo.com/1bz1kINzKSCf

Mercuriall 808 -> Ignite Emissary -> Ownhammer Recto 4x12 (blend of 2 IRs, but even one works fine) -> light stereo widening -> light reverb

The amp sim is free, btw. There's no EQ at all, other than hi and low cuts in the IR loader.


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## EJJS (Dec 16, 2020)

nickgray said:


> There's nothing wrong with the DI, you're just not tweaking the VSTs correctly. Here's a quick demo:
> 
> https://vocaroo.com/1bz1kINzKSCf
> 
> ...


WOW! That sounds nice. I really need to get some Ownhammer IR's and learn to tweak my VST's


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## Soporific (Dec 16, 2020)

I've noticed using a Scarlett 2i2 2nd Gen that I have to use line input versus instrument when I'm the PRS I wired an EMG into (my tone and volume pots don't work because I suck at soldering and/or mis-wired something but it sounds fine). I don't know if this is how it would work usually using an active pickup with this most interfaces. If I don't set the 2i2 input to use line it sounds similar to your DI recording. Plugged into an amp it is fine FWIW.

The other thing I've noticed using sim/emulators is that in addition to whatever DAW input level you have there is usually an input and output level on the plugin. If either are set too high/low you will get an odd guitar sound.


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## EJJS (Dec 16, 2020)

Soporific said:


> I've noticed using a Scarlett 2i2 2nd Gen that I have to use line input versus instrument when I'm the PRS I wired an EMG into (my tone and volume pots don't work because I suck at soldering and/or mis-wired something but it sounds fine). I don't know if this is how it would work usually using an active pickup with this most interfaces. If I don't set the 2i2 input to use line it sounds similar to your DI recording. Plugged into an amp it is fine FWIW.
> 
> The other thing I've noticed using sim/emulators is that in addition to whatever DAW input level you have there is usually an input and output level on the plugin. If either are set too high/low you will get an odd guitar sound.


I have heard that the 1st and 2nd gen Scarlett's had a problem with high output guitars clipping the input even if the gain knob is turned all the way off.
nickgray: Which OH IR pack that was what you used?


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## EJJS (Dec 16, 2020)

I have been also thinking of getting a nice amp head and torpedo captor and use it as a silent setup but then again I could just use VST's and some nice IR's.


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## nickgray (Dec 16, 2020)

Soporific said:


> that I have to use line input versus instrument when I'm the PRS I wired an EMG into



Active pickups output line level signal. Passive pickups output high impedance (instrument level) signal.


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## Soporific (Dec 16, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Active pickups output line level signal. Passive pickups output high impedance (instrument level) signal.



I guess I always assumed an active pickup would put out more voltage than a passive. Well at least I know something is wired correctly then!


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

To be fair I liked your dark tones. I'm not a fan of bright tones but I checked your DI and it's clean and sounds fine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aE5aPd2PIyn7nE0EjxNWrgZ3cqmRx_m9/view?usp=sharing


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## profwoot (Dec 16, 2020)

I also use the line input on my 2nd gen Scarlett 2i4 and all my guitars have passive pickups. I spent some hours a while back trying to redo some of my presets with the high-z input but the noise floor was extremely high. Might be related to the fix they supposedly made for the 3rd gen.


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## fantom (Dec 19, 2020)

EJJS said:


> I'm also getting a new guitar next year so we shall see if that helps. I thought maybe they are the EMG HZ's on my guitar that sound really dark but then again some people say they are brittle and thin sounding. I have a SD invader in my drawer but no way that would help LOL.



I had an EMG HZ 20 years ago. That pickup was muddy and sounded like crap. I suggest you go download a DI that isn't from your guitar, like the ones Lasse used for comparisons, and see if it sounds good through your presets. If it still sounds muffled, you can rule out your guitar and interface. If it is fixed, you know it's a problem with your signal chain.



nickgray said:


> Active pickups output line level signal. Passive pickups output high impedance (instrument level) signal.



I'm not sure this is true. Citation? Yes active pickups are hotter, but I don't think they are line level. Also, the EMG HZ is a passive pickup. So I'm not sure if active signal level discussion is relevant to the OP's issue.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 19, 2020)

fantom said:


> I had an EMG HZ 20 years ago. That pickup was muddy and sounded like crap. I suggest you go download a DI that isn't from your guitar, like the ones Lasse used for comparisons, and see if it sounds good through your presets. If it still sounds muffled, you can rule out your guitar and interface. If it is fixed, you know it's a problem with your signal chain.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure this is true. Citation? Yes active pickups are hotter, but I don't think they are line level. Also, the EMG HZ is a passive pickup. So I'm not sure if active signal level discussion is relevant to the OP's issue.



Depends on how hot the pickup is going through the Scarlett. When I got Black Winters I had to set my input to line because it was overpowering the signal and sounded horrible.


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## trem licking (Dec 19, 2020)

My EMG and passive pickups are nearly the same output on my interface... EMG just more consistent/compressed looking signal. Like 2 or 3 ticks (not much difference) level change on the interface to get same input level


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## fantom (Dec 19, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Depends on how hot the pickup is going through the Scarlett. When I got Black Winters I had to set my input to line because it was overpowering the signal and sounded horrible.



First off, the earlier Scarletts (up until v3) were notorious for clipping Hi-Z inputs. I'll also repeat that the EMG HZ is not even active.

Since you can't provide a reference... I'll look myself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level

Passive pickups are generally 50+ kiloohms. EMG actives are 10 kiloohms. Line level outs are typically around 100-600 ohms. The line level in impedance is typically 10 kiloohms. For the signal to work as designed, the input impedance should be much higher than the source impedance, which is why a line out impedance is 2 orders of magnitude lower. Matching the active EMG 10 kiloohms to the line in 10 kiloohms isn't "correct".

Specifically, quoting here:

Impedances, on the other hand, are deliberately not matched from output to input... ...When driven by a line output's usual low impedance of 100 to 600 ohms, this forms a "bridging" connection in which most of the voltage generated by the source (the output) is dropped across the load (the input), and minimal current flows due to the load's relatively high impedance [the 10 kiloohms].​
TL;DR, buy a DI box if you have a Scarlett that sounds crappy in Hi-Z mode


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 19, 2020)

fantom said:


> First off, the earlier Scarletts (up until v3) were notorious for clipping Hi-Z inputs. I'll also repeat that the EMG HZ is not even active.
> 
> Since you can't provide a reference... I'll look myself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
> 
> ...



There's really no point for a DI box. Just run the signal on line and call it a day


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## thebeesknees22 (Dec 20, 2020)

Ok my turn! Just for fun, I played with the DI a bit. (made with helix native and STL Tones Libra IR loader, and various IR's. amp/and IR's are in the titles) Stereo mix. One amp panned hard left, one hard right.

https://soundcloud.com/user-1210054...sevenstringorg-dude-test1-and-2/s-YCVHQlJ3Ob2
--the revv/panama (5150), and celestion digital orange IR's... one for something darker. Maybe a bit hollow. ..i need to play with the IR's more on that one as I can't say I'm super happy with it. 
--uberschall/badonk one is just with the default Libra German IR's. (brighter/more aggressive) I think I prefer this one. 

I dunno, I need to play with it more but I think it sounds fine other than some weird high freq clicks near the end. I think it's just scraping on the strings.

(i did put soothe2 on this to tame the cabs a bit) other than that no EQ or any other plugins except for using the high and low cuts on the Libra IR loader.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 20, 2020)

thebeesknees22 said:


> Ok my turn! Just for fun, I played with the DI a bit. (made with helix native and STL Tones Libra IR loader, and various IR's. amp/and IR's are in the titles) Stereo mix. One amp panned hard left, one hard right.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-1210054...sevenstringorg-dude-test1-and-2/s-YCVHQlJ3Ob2
> --the revv/panama (5150), and celestion digital orange IR's... one for something darker. Maybe a bit hollow. ..i need to play with the IR's more on that one as I can't say I'm super happy with it.
> ...



That's the good shit


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## c7spheres (Dec 21, 2020)

thebeesknees22 said:


> Ok my turn! Just for fun, I played with the DI a bit. (made with helix native and STL Tones Libra IR loader, and various IR's. amp/and IR's are in the titles) Stereo mix. One amp panned hard left, one hard right.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-1210054...sevenstringorg-dude-test1-and-2/s-YCVHQlJ3Ob2
> --the revv/panama (5150), and celestion digital orange IR's... one for something darker. Maybe a bit hollow. ..i need to play with the IR's more on that one as I can't say I'm super happy with it.
> ...



Did you double track that DI?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 21, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Did you double track that DI?


Why do you ask?


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## thebeesknees22 (Dec 21, 2020)

lol yeah I doubled it. I just did what I would normally do. 2 amps. 1 L and 1 R. I may play with it some more if I get time. It's kinda fun to mess with other people's DI's. 

It's not uncommon to use 2 amps with 1 guitar live, and with digital it's so easy so...why not? lol


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## c7spheres (Dec 21, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Why do you ask?





thebeesknees22 said:


> lol yeah I doubled it. I just did what I would normally do. 2 amps. 1 L and 1 R. I may play with it some more if I get time. It's kinda fun to mess with other people's DI's.
> 
> It's not uncommon to use 2 amps with 1 guitar live, and with digital it's so easy so...why not? lol



I asked because it sounds double tracked and I thought you may have discovered a secret to kill the phantom center without having to double track. It sounds good though!


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 21, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> I asked because it sounds double tracked and I thought you may have discovered a secret to kill the phantom center without having to double track. It sounds good though!


Ah. I was assuming you were gonna say you heard phasing or something


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## c7spheres (Dec 21, 2020)

thebeesknees22 said:


> lol yeah I doubled it. I just did what I would normally do. 2 amps. 1 L and 1 R. I may play with it some more if I get time. It's kinda fun to mess with other people's DI's.
> 
> It's not uncommon to use 2 amps with 1 guitar live, and with digital it's so easy so...why not? lol



- I'm confused for some reason now. So is it two amps and two takes or one take and two amps?
- I'm curious because I've been trying to find a good way to kill phantom center without recording two takes and without plugins. I know that's the best way but I just want a way to do it with only one take.


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## thebeesknees22 (Dec 21, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ah. I was assuming you were gonna say you heard phasing or something



Phasing is still something I struggle with tbh. I need to work a lot on that. Right now I'm just kind of feeling my way through it, but I definitely have phasing issues in some of my stuff. I admitted I don't reaaalllly understand what to listen for when it comes to Phasing...except that I know when something definitely sounds really "wrong" or bad..and then i just adjust the phase until it sounds better to me. I don't have any formal sound engineering training so I'm just teaching myself via the internet and trial and error. lol

@c7spheres - it's the 1 single take from OP's google drive, duplicated, and with 2 amps. The sound in those clips just comes from trying out loads of combinations of amps and IR's. Some amps play better together than others. Some I just can't get to sit right no matter what. I just tried a bunch of different ones until it "sounds right." 

As a general rule though:
I know a Bogner/Mesa type play well together because Alice n Chains did a bogner/dual rect combo on the Dirt album according to what I've researched. (they apparently had a 3rd amp too, but I can't remember what it was.... it was just in some youtube video breakdown I saw on the production. Might have been a rick beato one). Honestly I LOVE the uberschall. It just sound mean and aggressive. I know it's not big amongst the modern metal/djenty crowd but damn... Is it great. Pair it up with another amp and you get this huge sound. 

Marshall/mesa combos seem to play nice too. Engl's sound good with most anything too imho because they're darker and fat and really round out the sound. Great complimentary amp imho, and basically the Brit/Merican combo works well in general as a rule imho. One is crunchier in the mids and one is more scooped so they tend to compliment each other. So try any combo like that. The amp brands don't really matter. Just have one crunchier in the mids and one more scooped, one hard left and one hard right and it'll just sound bigger vs one amp with an sm57 L and 121 R. It's because of using different amp types to cover different frequency ranges if that makes sense?

Also IR's...actually IR's are 90% of the phase issues. Some work better together than others. Some speakers work better together than others. I don't have any real advice other than to find an IR loader that lets you quickly flip through a bunch of options. 

I'm not sure if that helps or not. I think a lot of folks just get hung up on having one amp that has to be "the" amp, when really you can get a lot more mileage out of having a bunch of different amps on the same signal to cover a broader frequency range. Double tracking with 2 different amps though will give an even bigger sound. And double tracking with 2 different guitars with 2 different amps is even better. (at least in my experimenting that's proven to be the case...but I'm no pro so take what I say with a grain of salt) 

TLR
find amp combinations to cover as big of a frequency range as possible. The more similar the amp types the more mono it will sound even when panned hard L and hard R, because they'll cover similar frequency ranges.


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 21, 2020)

The weakness of the Scarlet I can hear here. Your DI is rather noisy.

Also, not to sound like a twat, but the playing also makes a huge difference. Your picking sounds kinda weak for the thrashy type riff. Especially when it comes to the single note stuff, the pick attack suffers a lot. I know it's quick demo riff to diagnose a problem, but I'm mentioning this because I've been through this before. 

I spent time wondering why other peoples' recordings sounded better, and even their DI signals were better. I have a nice interface, nice guitars with nice pickups, even good cables. But why did my stuff sound worse? It was ME and my playing. If you want a super tight, aggressive sound - then you need to play tight and aggressive. Just wanted to point that out.


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## EJJS (Jan 5, 2021)

Just an update, sorry for the bump!
I got everything together!! I started using the Devil's lab doppelganger IR's which sounded a lot better than the Catharis IR's I was 
using.This time most amps sounded too bright but thankfully it was easy to dial the highs back a bit. And I also agree the DI I provided was really weak. Gotta get 'em chops down now. Thanks everybody!


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