# I have never played through a real tube amp..



## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 7, 2021)

It's almost embarrassing to say it, guitar has been a huge part of my life since many years ago, I have practiced like hell, I have recorded albums of my own & my friends bands in my bedroom. But I have never played through a real tube amp. Yikes, I guess? 

I guess for economic reasons and space and loudness reasons too. When I did have enough money to buy a tube amp, I just bought a Helix LT instead, seemed much more complete for what I was doing. A bit crazy to think about..

Anyone can relate? Have a similar confession?


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## Dayn (Apr 7, 2021)

I've played one in a store. At the time I only had solid state amps to compare with, not even any modelers. It certainly had a very rich sound to it, though it was more the feeling of the air being pushed that got me. I have no complaints, it sounded great.

I remember that sound, and the software amps these days sound as good, if not better. So I'll never own one and I'll keep to my software.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 7, 2021)

Nothing to be ashamed of really. That's just the times these days. You don't need a tube amp anymore. Heck you don't even need an amp now.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 7, 2021)

Tubes are a choice, not a privilege.


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## mongey (Apr 7, 2021)

the reality is tubes are an old technology that are only getting older and more niche with time 

There will be a point where supply and demand will shoot prices up. And tube amps will become more rare in the wild. 
10 years , 20 maybe? Who knows but the days are numbered. 
There will be a day when most people have never played a tube amp. 

times change. But hopefully I’m dead by then.


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## Edika (Apr 7, 2021)

When I started playing guitar tube amps where prohibitevely expensive in my home country. Even a new Peavey and Marshall amp was way too expensive, let alone something like Mesa. Especially for a Uni student that his parents didn't have deep pockets. And of course they were really loud. So I played solid state and whatever modeling technology was out and relatively cheap. I remember the Line 6 bean pod being the bees knees.

The revelation came when I bought my first tube amp head. It was just, wow! But the problem with tube amps is weight, size, loudness and maintenance. I haven't played any of the newer modelling technology (maybe I should give some quality plug ins a go when I buy a new PC). If I can get the same sound without all the clutter then I'm game lol!


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## budda (Apr 7, 2021)

It's less it has to be a tube amp and more playing stupidly loud is plain fun. But the internet will tell you playing loud has to be done with a tube amp for the full experience.

The end goal with any amp is it needs to make a sound you like to hear.


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## beerandbeards (Apr 7, 2021)

Man I sure do love the sound of my Mesa turned up. I don’t even play out anymore so it’s not a necessity but it makes me happy to crank my amp in the basement.


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## Avedas (Apr 7, 2021)

I've only actually owned a single tube amp (I miss you F-30). Played through a ton more though, and using tube amps is probably my favorite part of going to rehearsal spaces. However, I don't see myself owning another one in the future. Just not very practical for my living and playing situation.


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## thebeesknees22 (Apr 7, 2021)

You made the right choice.

@AwakenTheSkies 

I was an early adopter of digital when it first became a thing way back in 2000. It always seemed to me like it was the way things would go due to the cost and versatility. I didn't really go tubes until the Line6 dt25 came out, and then my dad gave me his marshall JCM2000 that he wasn't using. But I sold the DT25, and the JCM just collects dust. I'm in an apartment so I can't crank it, which takes the fun out of having a tube amp. 

You're not really missing out on anything. They're noisy. They collect dust. They require maintenance. etc....They're not nearly as versatile, and they're really expensive.

I pretty much just use Helix native at home. But... it's really fun to crank a tube amp when you can. Are they worth the price tag? no. You'll get waaaay more bang for the buck going digital, and you'll end up with a better product since you can spend all that cash you save on other gear. It sounds like you're big into recording so I would take that cash you save and put it towards some really nice plugins for mixing. You'll end up with a way better mix at the end of the day.

Anyway, I've pretty much always been digital solely for the versatility and bang for the buck. Gear is expensive. ..gear is even more expensive now. If you're on a budget, I wouldn't go tube. They're fun, and they look cool...but make sure you plan for your end goal so you can end up with the best product you can if you're recording.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 7, 2021)

we're really living in a golden age of cheap tube amps and cabs...

try one.

after the whole covid thing is done and prices go back to normal.


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 7, 2021)

Well, it’s definitely not necessary to play through one in order to call yourself a guitarist, but it’s an experience I think most guitarists should have at least once or twice. If anything, just to have an idea of how the people who came before went about dialing stuff in and understanding the tools they were working with. 

It’s definitely going to be an avenue for the creation of new/original guitar tones. The more people aren’t trying to dial in a specific amp, the quicker that will happen. I know in my case, when I dial in amps in my AxeFX, I don’t think “Does this sound close enough to a IIC+?”, I just use the amp names as a general guideline/ballpark then dial in what I want from it. 

Hahahah and every metal guitarist should get to experience the joy of dialing in a Mesa MKIV for the first time. Never came across another amp that made me think it was broken the second I started twisting knobs.


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## Forkface (Apr 7, 2021)

im a big advocate for small tube combos (dealt with a bigass rockerverb and 212 cab during my touring days... never again)
i currently have a Helix LT, and a small bassbreaker 15. i love playin thru that thing, moreso than the helix. yeah sure, the helix has so much more stuff and sounds amazing, but idk, the little fender sounds _juicy. _it has something... idk, but i love it. 
the only way i can sort of explain it, is that the fender just sounds identical to _the idea in my head of what an electric guitar should sound. _

plus, the thing runs for like 400 bucks or something, and its lightweight, and apt volume friendly. literally cant go wrong.


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## TedEH (Apr 7, 2021)

I strongly suspect my draw to tube amps comes from thinking of music/guitars as being detached from computers/tech/etc. I imagine for a lot of people, the process of playing guitar involves turning on your PC, loading up your amp sims etc - but that's never been the process for me. For me, it's always been about the room and the space, and moving some air, etc. - plus at the time I started learning to play most digital solution sounded pretty bad. I went through a handful of Digitech and similar "amp modelling" budget products and it left a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

I can understand how someone who starts playing now might not ever feel a need to try a tube amp.


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## p0ke (Apr 7, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I strongly suspect my draw to tube amps comes from thinking of music/guitars as being detached from computers/tech/etc. I imagine for a lot of people, the process of playing guitar involves turning on your PC, loading up your amp sims etc - but that's never been the process for me. For me, it's always been about the room and the space, and moving some air, etc. - plus at the time I started learning to play most digital solution sounded pretty bad. I went through a handful of Digitech and similar "amp modelling" budget products and it left a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.
> 
> I can understand how someone who starts playing now might not ever feel a need to try a tube amp.



^ Can relate to this. I also had the "detach from computers/tech" thing for a long time - I didn't even want to play guitar with headphones for a long time for the same reason. Also, back in 2003-2004 when my most active playing phase began, basically everything digital sounded like crap, and solid state stuff just didn't have the "balls", if you know what I mean. I think it was 2006 when I got my first and only tube amp, and that just blew everything I'd played right out of the water. Also in terms of volume - I'd had a Marshall MG100HDFX and that often got buried under our drummer, but once I got my Valveking, I didn't have that problem anymore. 

Then when the Valveking burned, I decided to go all rackmount (I'd had enough of stumbling over pedals as well, I had a pretty substantial pedal board...), and tbh these days it's super rare for me to miss having a tube amp. I don't even use my actual amp much anymore, because VST's (even the free ones) these days are just that good.


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## brector (Apr 7, 2021)

Tube amps were too expensive when I was a kid and playing. The only tube amp I have played through belonged to one of my old teachers


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## Tonefinder (Apr 7, 2021)

Dayn said:


> software amps these days sound as good, if not better. So I'll never own one and I'll keep to my software.


Lolol


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## nightflameauto (Apr 7, 2021)

As a dude that has owned several tube amps over the years and currently has two (DSL20, Crate Stealth 50), and has solid state amps (Peavey Studio Pro, Boss Katana) and digital modeling gear (Helix currently), there's a place for all of them.

That said, you ever get a chance to stand in front of a big stack and try a 100+ watt tube head through it? You'll understand why some dudes love them so much. I still miss the days of standing in front of my Ampeg VL1002 full stack and riffing out for hours. That sucker full up would literally blow your hair back. There's just so much air getting pushed off of 4x12s at full tube power.

Not practical day-to-day for me in my quiet little neighborhood, but I still relish the chance to do it any time I can. Highly recommended. An hour in front of 100 tube watts pushing air is second only to pouring out fifty plus miles on a pedal road bike as a great mental therapy. You will literally feel physically spent doing either one, and that's a great place to be mentally.

Even so, sometimes I just want to jot some riffs down in the DAW, and the Helix or a mic on the Studio Pro at whisper volumes gets the job done. Right tools for the right time and all that.


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## gnoll (Apr 7, 2021)

Tube amps kick ass!!!!


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## budda (Apr 7, 2021)

Crank a 1000w power amp and a good digital rig through a large amount of speakers and the effect should be the same. Ymmv


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## coreysMonster (Apr 7, 2021)

When I was a kid, tube amps were too expensive.
Now that I'm in my 30's, houses to play tube amps in are too expensive.

If I had the ability to play through half-stacks every day without pissing off people around me I would, but the ol' Axe Fx II is good enough and much more practical.


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## Demiurge (Apr 7, 2021)

Amp modeling has been around for over 20 years so it's not super-strange that someone can go a long time without ever using "the real thing", I guess.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 7, 2021)

As a (very) long term goal, I would like to record with a real tube amp. But it has to be the real deal, cabinet and mic, not just an amp into attenuator into an impulse. The real deal. Otherwise it would feel like I'm missing half the point. But then it's not just about the tube amp anymore right? It's the room, the mics, the console, a whole bunch of things..

I think I'm starting to get better at dialing in modeling amps for my songs but it's just a different sound I suspect. For me, metal guitar tone peaked in the early 2000s, and while I can get good sounds from my modeller and plugins, I don't think I can get the sound like these "not so old" records. The tone on The End of Heartache by KSE for example is really fucking hot.



Comparing this to newer bands with a more "modern" sound with not as much highs and more mids (and less bass), I like this a lot more.


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## akinari (Apr 7, 2021)

There are bad sounding tube amps and awesome sounding SS amps. I love Dual Recs and XXXs but I never feel like I'm missing out plugging into my VTX350 or RG80ES just because they've got transistors in 'em.


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## vilk (Apr 7, 2021)

It's a similar story for most of my life, but I never had digital either, just old analog solid state. However, once I had played some tubes I was hooked right away and bought one. And I've got a Helix POD now, too.

To me, the difference (in the room) is obvious, and I even play my Helix through a tube power amp and guitar speaker. Having said that, when it comes to recording, I've been tricked by those A/B Pepsi taste tests. I think digital rigs work just fine, and especially for recording purposes. But when it comes to standing in the room, there's no contest. 

Could I live with only digital? I'm about to. Moving and selling my tube amp and cab. I think I'll get by just fine. But I'm gonna be thinking about that next tube amp.


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## c7spheres (Apr 7, 2021)

I really think you/everyone should play through a tube amp and learn a bit about dialing them in. Once you feel what you're missing and get that interaction with a good vibe you won't want anything else.
- I can't speak in comparison to the higher end modellers yet but compared to practically any other piece of gear there is no comparison. They just feel and respond in an indescribable way. Get a versatile amp like a Mesa F30 or Express and hear, feel and see the light!
- After I try and AxeFx though who knows, I might take back what I said : )
- Seriously, It's more than just sound. The feel and interaction of tubes can bring out magical things in you. Everyone owes it to themselves to do a serious no bull sit down with one, not just a quicky at Guitar Center. Really pay attention to the interaction of your dynamic pick attack and the amp gain and master volumes and breakup and you'll start to get the idea/hang of it. Pure Magic.


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## mongey (Apr 7, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I strongly suspect my draw to tube amps comes from thinking of music/guitars as being detached from computers/tech/etc. .



there is def a point to this. when I had an axe2 XL one of the things I didn't like was that it felt like just another piece of technology to maintain and deal with. FW updates and all that . where as my amp and pedals I just sit down and turn it on and its a get away from all that stuff


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## Floppystrings (Apr 7, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Comparing this to newer bands with a more "modern" sound with not as much highs and more mids (and less bass), I like this a lot more.




I did a re-amp four years ago using free software that turned out pretty well, not the same song but from the same album, obviously after four years I hear all kinds of changes I would make but this was pretty cool to me at the time:

https://soundcloud.com/jock-grindco...tar-tracks-re-amped-with-amp-sims-info-listed


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## BornToLooze (Apr 7, 2021)

I grew up with tube and solid state amps, had a POD HD I could never get to sound more than meh, tried an AxeFX and it had way too much stuff going on, I'll stick with amps, they're simpler.


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## ramses (Apr 7, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Anyone can relate? Have a similar confession?



I have the same confession to make!

I even recorded a CD that sold (not many copies) in multiple countries — Italy, Japan, Argentina, Chile, others ( it was a metal CD  ) — before I played a tube amp .

I did not grow up poor, but I did not have enough money for a fancy tube amp, just affordable solid state "stuff."

The first time I played a tube amp, because I had finally decided to buy one, was an amazing experience ... I still remember my whole body reacting to to the first note :-D


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## Strobe (Apr 7, 2021)

I get it. My tube amp mostly sits in the basement. I use a digital amp for my bass and a kemper for my guitars live. The latter is a little awkward, in that I love love love the Kemper but I technically still need someone to own tube amps if I am got get new profiles


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## High Plains Drifter (Apr 7, 2021)

I've had several tube amps but never got wrapped up in the whole experience since my chops were just average. If I had ever been more of a shredder then I'm sure I'd feel differently.


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## efiltsohg (Apr 8, 2021)

it's great fun and you ARE missing out


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## tarzegetakizerd (Apr 8, 2021)

Not really missing out if it is not practical haha

Like me. I've gone ampless since I don't have anywhere to play loud.


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## Protestheriphery (Apr 8, 2021)

To me, jamming an amp sim through my recording monitors just doesnt have the same feel as my amp pushing the speakers in my cab. The latter just has a fatness and warmth that are thoroughly satisfying. Most importantly, I can hear the differences in my guitars more. The nuances of each instrument is a lot more apparent.


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## StevenC (Apr 8, 2021)

As someone with 3 half stacks in by bedroom, I played a Fender Mustang with 2 at most 6" speakers the other day and it was really convincing. Not sell it all and buy a modeler convincing, but better than it had any right to be.

The worst shimmer I've ever heard in my life though. Just abysmal.


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## narad (Apr 8, 2021)

StevenC said:


> As someone with 3 half stacks in by bedroom, I played a Fender Mustang with 2 at most 6" speakers the other day and it was really convincing. Not sell it all and buy a modeler convincing, but better than it had any right to be.
> 
> The worst shimmer I've ever heard in my life though. Just abysmal.



I guess there's no correlation between number of half-stacks and hearing ability?


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## Choop (Apr 8, 2021)

It'd be worth trying sometime if you have the opportunity since its just a different kind of experience coaxing out tones from a good tube amp. The biggest differences to me when hearing a tube amp in a room vs a SS amp is more in the clean/low gain dynamics, and the overall fullness and decay of tube overdrive just feels great. Modelers have gotten really good at emulating this however, and it's hard to argue the practicality of going with something like a Helix over an expensive tube amp that isn't nearly as flexible on its own.


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## KailM (Apr 8, 2021)

If you haven't stood in front of a 4x12 powered by a 100+ watt high-gain tuber cranked to pants-rattling levels you haven't lived.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Apr 8, 2021)

I’ll confess the other way. 

I’ve had tube amps for years, but my main amp nowadays is a little line6 SpiderV combo because it’s more convenient. Does it sound as good as a Mesa combo, or a Marshall stack? I don’t know... I _think_ it does, at least to my old man ears. Plus I can go from Soldano SLO leads to Bognor Ecstasy rhythms with different effects all at the touch of one button, I can set up four vastly different sounds literally one click away from each other.

Any loss in ‘tone’ is made up for in ‘fun’. 

I may well go Helix at some point, but for now I’m a little put off by the added complexity compared to the nice and simple spider. I don’t gig anymore, I’ve got limited space as my music room is my home office due to covid, so...


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## DaZoner (Apr 8, 2021)

I think amps are great and DO sound superior. However, I do agree with most of the comments regarding amps being too loud for an apartment.

I may one day go back to modeling but I tell ya, you stand in a room where you're playing through a real 100 watt amp(whichever model) and the other guitarist across the room is playing through a modeler(whichever)... the amp will just eat up all the air in the room and the modeller won't be heard. I've seen plenty of interviews with the pros saying the same thing.

But I do agree, every situation is different.


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## efiltsohg (Apr 8, 2021)

Choop said:


> Modelers have gotten really good at emulating this however, and it's hard to argue the practicality of going with something like a Helix over an expensive tube amp that isn't nearly as flexible on its own.



Helix costs more than all 3 tube amps I currently owned put together


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## Choop (Apr 8, 2021)

efiltsohg said:


> Helix costs more than all 3 tube amps I currently owned put together



It also has a large selection of effects and several routing options for recording and live play, and has stripped down versions to suit players who may need less. Everybody's needs are different for sure, but there is a huge value in the Helix or similar good quality modelers. I mean I prefer amps as well, just can't deny the practicality and excellent value of modelers these days.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 8, 2021)

efiltsohg said:


> Helix costs more than all 3 tube amps I currently owned put together



Ohhh, no way, when I say tube amp I mean a cool tube amp like a Mesa Rectifier, 6505, Diezel VH4, SLO, Archon, Fender Deluxe, VC30, Uberschall, etc. Those are the amps I'd like to play.


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## budda (Apr 8, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Ohhh, no way, when I say tube amp I mean a cool tube amp like a Mesa Rectifier, 6505, Diezel VH4, SLO, Archon, Fender Deluxe, VC30, Uberschall, etc. Those are the amps I'd like to play.



Gonna want an assortment of cabs.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Apr 8, 2021)

Recently let my friend's 16 year old son, who has only ever played Line 6 combos, play through my Invective and 4x12 cranked up. 

He couldn't stop grinning the whole time he played and his mom had to drag him out when it was time to leave. She told me yesterday he hasn't stopped talking about getting a half stack. Pretty cool to let him experience that for the first time.

Yes OP, you're missing out.


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## Boofchuck (Apr 8, 2021)

For recording I only use DIs + modelers for the sake of experimentation/convenience. I love the sound and feel of amp models through headphones, but I can't stand playing them through monitors. So I'm fortunate enough to have a tube head and cab for pleasure and practice.

Seriously, one of my favorite things is to crank my amp (when possible), put in hearing protection, and just lay on the floor with my head against the speaker.

@FILTHnFEAR You've done that boy a wonderful service.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 8, 2021)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> Recently let my friend's 16 year old son, who has only ever played Line 6 combos, play through my Invective and 4x12 cranked up.
> 
> He couldn't stop grinning the whole time he played and his mom had to drag him out when it was time to leave. She told me yesterday he hasn't stopped talking about getting a half stack. Pretty cool to let him experience that for the first time.
> 
> Yes OP, you're missing out.



Very cool. For me, I am a big fan of Misha, but his aggressive salesman behavior really puts me off. I don't think he's dishonest but with marketing this aggressive it's feels like the products are more hype than anything. I would rather just buy a normal 6505, which should be a safer bet, it's also cheaper and many professionals use it in recording.

I would also love to buy a VOX AC30 combo if I could, with a compressor in front, it's the perfect mix of gain and clean that I use for practicing. And it would be sick for recording bright cleans too. But it wouldn't cover the high gain territory which is a big deal for me. Being realistic the PRS MT-15 sounds good for me, I am a big fan of Mark Tremonti as well. I wish it had a attenuated output to use with an interface, or a USB.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Apr 8, 2021)

never owned a tube amp, just used cheap crap and modelers for a decade +. tried my friends marshall + orange after a decade of playing and understood the difference, so I bought a Kemper. sounds tubey enough to me, and works like an actual modern piece of technology. not sentimental for anything analogue


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## c7spheres (Apr 8, 2021)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> .... had to drag him out when it was time to leave. She told me yesterday he hasn't stopped talking about getting a half stack. Pretty cool to let him experience that for the first time.
> 
> Yes OP, you're missing out.



You've created a monster. A jam monster!


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 8, 2021)

Man you're missing out. That visceral gut punch from playing an amp into a 4x12 makes playing feel more "alive" for lack of a better word. That being said it is absolutely not necessary with how good modeling tech is anymore. It's just a fun experience that every guitarist should experience. I always enjoy playing more (and practice way more) when I get to actually use my amps at a decent volume. Not really feasible for me anymore so I run them via a loadbox to my computer for silent playing/recording.

I remember when I first started playing in the early 2000s and man did modeling suck comparatively. The only decent ones at that time imo were the peavey vypyrs, which were kind of stupid since you could get real peavey tube amps for cheaper typically.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 8, 2021)

The thing with using digital gear is that you can't just make your presets that you use for (relatively) quiet practice just louder nor can you ignore outboard gear like power amps and speakers. I think those are the most common mistakes and would certainly lead to someone getting buried in the mix or just having shitty tone in general when played in a band/live music context. 

You can hear almost instantly when someone didn't make their presets at live volume, and especially when they don't consider the live mix. It's always over gainy, flubs out, and messy. 

I'm all for real amps, I still have some, but if you know what you're doing you can absolutely bury a traditional half stack with modeling gear and solid state power.


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## TedEH (Apr 8, 2021)

Arguably, some are just bad at dialing in real amps anyway. At this point, I imagine most gear is good enough that getting buried is usually not the gear's fault.


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## Robslalaina (Apr 9, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Plus I can go from Soldano SLO leads to Bognor Ecstasy rhythms with different effects all at the touch of one button, I can set up four vastly different sounds literally one click away from each other.


This is where I've been for years. I started with a Digitech RP100 multi-effects unit that gave me just what you said: being able to switch from one combination of amp, cab and effects to another with nothing more than stepping on a button. Quality was obviously lacking with the RP100 but you get used to that kind of convenience real quick.
I bought a Laney VH100R maybe three years after I started playing guitar and although I liked the tone I was put off by the inconvenience of dealing with the channels and effects posed by that kind of setup unless I went full MIDI.
All of my friends who play guitar use tube amps and I've tried countless ones loud for hours but I've never been amazed to the point of giving up on the convenience and variety offered by digital setups and yes, as you said, the fun that can be had so easily.


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## Musiscience (Apr 9, 2021)




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## brector (Apr 9, 2021)

Musiscience said:


> View attachment 92299


Can't believe it took 3 pages to get here


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## Musiscience (Apr 9, 2021)

brector said:


> Can't believe it took 3 pages to get here



Yet here we are.


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## Lopp (Apr 9, 2021)

For all of you tooting that someone is missing out by not playing through tube amps, I'll say you are missing out by not playing through a full PA.


I'm joking around. However, I do run my AX8 through my old band's PA in my basement with two QSC HPR122i and a HPR151W. Yes, that's a 1500W PA in my basement. Instead of a simple amp in the room, if you want to get the sound of when you saw your favorite band live, try running a modeler a full powerful PA. I also have a Mark IV, TriAxis, and Quad along with a Mesa 4x12 and will sometimes switch between and AX8/PA and a Boogie through the 4x12. I don't think anyone would miss out one way or the other.

To go with that, some of you seem to be confusing tube with a 4x12, where you should take into account not just whether it is a tube amp, but also what kind of cab you are running through. My Mark IV is a open back combo, and it is quite a different experience to run it through the closed back 4x12.

A modeler will do the job quite well if you have enough power and good speakers.



MaxOfMetal said:


> The thing with using digital gear is that you can't just make your presets that you use for (relatively) quiet practice just louder nor can you ignore outboard gear like power amps and speakers. I think those are the most common mistakes and would certainly lead to someone getting buried in the mix or just having shitty tone in general when played in a band/live music context.
> 
> You can hear almost instantly when someone didn't make their presets at live volume, and especially when they don't consider the live mix. It's always over gainy, flubs out, and messy.
> 
> I'm all for real amps, I still have some, but if you know what you're doing you can absolutely bury a traditional half stack with modeling gear and solid state power.



Definitely! Two anecdotes:

1. A decade ago I had dialed in my old Axe-Fx Standard at a quiet rehearsal. The next gig, it was torture fixing my levels and tones at full stage volume. If you are going to play live, make sure you first dial in your tones at full gig volume along with your band to make sure everything works together.

2. At a jam with a few other guitarists, vocals, drums, and bass, I was using the AX8 through one QSC HPR122i, some of my favorite tones were not cutting through, and I didn't want to compensate by just trying to overpower them with sheer wattage. Fortunately, I had plenty of different presets for different tones and found a great one that had the correct frequencies to cut right through while allowing the other instruments to have their own sonic space. It didn't have anything to do with tube vs modeler. It just depends on which frequencies you emphasize to cut through the mix.


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## nightlight (Apr 11, 2021)

What I love most about tube amps is the "immediacy" of the experience. It's something digital can't do, there's always that lag between when you hit the strings and when the output arrives. It's just milliseconds, sure, but that's the thing about analog, there is no latency with those tube amps. You feel it the most when playing more rhythmically, such as when chugging on the low strings. 

I'm like the OP, as in I never played a tube amp till I was in my 30s. Growing up, I was first using digital FX and solid state amps. Zoom 505II, Marshall MG50DFX, Boss GT-8. My first serious processor was a Kemper, but I traded that for an EVH5150III and a Mesa Boogie Mark V. 

Haven't looked back after that. I bought a Kemper again, but I prefer my tube amps to anything digital. If you get a reactive load, even the complaint about them being too loud goes away. 

I'm lucky that I never seem to piss off my neighbours though, I've really blasted those things and while I've got one or two minor complaints, no visits from the cops (touch wood).


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## budda (Apr 11, 2021)

@nightlight cant say Im experiencing any lag.


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## nickgray (Apr 11, 2021)

nightlight said:


> there's always that lag between when you hit the strings and when the output arrives



Hardware modelers have a latency of around 2ms or less even, at least Axe Fx and Helix do. It's an extremely low amount of latency, it's equivalent to putting your speakers 0.7 meters farther away from you. Not to mention that if you use digital pedals with your amps you'll also get some latency, especially if you're running a bunch of them, that's one of the major pros of a good multi-effects unit - you don't have to worry about this stuff at all.


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## Marked Man (Apr 11, 2021)

I was instantly converted the first time I played a real tube Marshall in the same room as my Peavey solid state, which I had been happy with to that time. There is no comparison in virility. Tube Watts are bigger and badder. In the end, TOAN is all that matters, not built in effects, light weight, etc. Give me TOAN.


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## budda (Apr 11, 2021)

Cant tell if "tube watts" is sarcastic or not.


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## nightlight (Apr 12, 2021)

budda said:


> @nightlight cant say Im experiencing any lag.



Some people are more sensitive to latency than others. For example, it's 3ms with the Kemper and 0ms with the tube amp. Your brain is capable of compensating for up to 10ms, according to something I read somewhere. Even with the Kemper, if you just do some aggressive palm muting, you should be able to tell that there's a slight lag between when you are hitting the string and when the sound comes. Just do it fast enough and you should be able to make it out.


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## nightlight (Apr 12, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Hardware modelers have a latency of around 2ms or less even, at least Axe Fx and Helix do. It's an extremely low amount of latency, it's equivalent to putting your speakers 0.7 meters farther away from you. Not to mention that if you use digital pedals with your amps you'll also get some latency, especially if you're running a bunch of them, that's one of the major pros of a good multi-effects unit - you don't have to worry about this stuff at all.



Add that 2ms latency plus 0.7 metres (2ms) for the modeller, there's no point in discounting that fact. It's a far more tactile experience playing with a tube amp versus a modeller, this might be what people are referring to when they say you feel what you are playing as you play it.


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## budda (Apr 12, 2021)

I think there may be conflation between amp in the room and latency but i dunno .


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## nightlight (Apr 12, 2021)

budda said:


> I think there may be conflation between amp in the room and latency but i dunno .



Amp in the room is the sound of the amp through a cabinet. When people are talking about modellers, they say it is the sound of a miced up amp and cab, which is very different from how the same amp would sound through a cabinet. 

Latency is the time it takes for the input signal to be output. It's established that all digital gear takes time to route that sound, so you have measurements like 3ms for the Kemper. Analog gear, on the other hand, doesn't have that latency, or at least it is orders less.


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## budda (Apr 12, 2021)

So whats the latency with a 10-pedal board and 30ft of cable into a tube amp vs an FM3?


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## Choop (Apr 12, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> It's almost embarrassing to say it, guitar has been a huge part of my life since many years ago, I have practiced like hell, I have recorded albums of my own & my friends bands in my bedroom. But I have never played through a real tube amp. Yikes, I guess?
> 
> I guess for economic reasons and space and loudness reasons too. When I did have enough money to buy a tube amp, I just bought a Helix LT instead, seemed much more complete for what I was doing. A bit crazy to think about..
> 
> Anyone can relate? Have a similar confession?



I listened to your tracks that you have up on Soundcloud, and dude they sound pretty great. Did you use the Helix LT for most if not all of that?


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 12, 2021)

Choop said:


> I listened to your tracks that you have up on Soundcloud, and dude they sound pretty great. Did you use the Helix LT for most if not all of that?



Thanks!! I used the Helix LT on the first 3 tracks you find. "8 String Demo" and everything after were made in 2017-2015, I didn't have the Helix until 2018. Those older tracks are using the free TSE X50 v1 amp sim. I have made a ton of tracks with the Helix but I was very unhappy with my mix sound until very recently so I haven't released any tracks to the public until last week. I'm happy with how the tone turned out in the "Bowl - Teardrop cover", and last week "From the Grave" could've been brighter but I guess it's fine too.


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## Choop (Apr 12, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Thanks!! I used the Helix LT on the first 3 tracks you find. "8 String Demo" and everything after were made in 2017-2015, I didn't have the Helix until 2018. Those older tracks are using the free TSE X50 v1 amp sim. I have made a ton of tracks with the Helix but I was very unhappy with my mix sound until very recently so I haven't released any tracks to the public until last week. I'm happy with how the tone turned out in the "Bowl - Teardrop cover", and last week "From the Grave" could've been brighter but I guess it's fine too.



Awesome! The newer tracks definitely sound a bit more full in the guitar tone, but the previous tones with the X50 are not bad either -- I used to use that plugin as well and it's surprisingly nice sounding (especially for being free if you choose to use the demo version). Good stuff.


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## nickgray (Apr 12, 2021)

nightlight said:


> When people are talking about modellers, they say it is the sound of a miced up amp and cab



There's nothing prohibiting you from running just the amp sim into a clean solid state power amp. You won't get the exact impedance curve of your cab (though Axe Fx does allow you to tweak impedance curves and tons of other parameters), but the point is is that you really don't have to use IRs if you don't want to.



nightlight said:


> . It's a far more tactile experience playing with a tube amp versus a modeller



As I've mentioned, the latency is extremely small on the hardware modelers. I highly, highly doubt that you would be able to blind A/B a 2ms latency digital path vs a near instant analogue path.

It's something that's quite easy to test too - take something with a known latency and start adding extra latency via a 100% wet delay to it. Personally, I start to feel it at around 5ms and only with headphones on, and only when really, really focusing and paying attention to my picking. At 7-8ms it's relatively noticeable, although it's useable. Closer to 10ms is where it starts feeling weird.

If you have actual problems playing through a 2ms modeler, well, I dunno what to say really. Live players routinely use modelers, wireless guitar connection, and even wireless IEM rigs, often all together.

And just to reiterate, people routinely use digital effects like delay and reverb, having 3-4 digital pedals always on is not something out of this world.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 12, 2021)

Choop said:


> Awesome! The newer tracks definitely sound a bit more full in the guitar tone, but the previous tones with the X50 are not bad either -- I used to use that plugin as well and it's surprisingly nice sounding (especially for being free if you choose to use the demo version). Good stuff.



Yep, I think the X50 is very underrated but because it doesn't have so much marketing as the other amp sims nowadays. I actually bought X50 v2 after using the free v1 for a while, but then had to buy the Helix LT a few months after, it's a long story. I definetly wouldn't use these songs as a reference to compare the amp sims, because back then I didn't know how to dial in sounds, just trial and error until I found something that worked. It has only been a few months that I have actually figured out a strategy to dial in a guitar sound that works with the mix with basically any amp and impulse (within reason). Maybe we're just really spoiled with these super nice modelled amps, but to me at this point it's not really about one sim being better than the other, as long as you pick a good impulse and shove enough bass, mids and treble into the sound (especially mids), you can make almost any amp sim sound good in the song.


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## nightlight (Apr 12, 2021)

budda said:


> So whats the latency with a 10-pedal board and 30ft of cable into a tube amp vs an FM3?



Van Halen used to run 200-feet of cable. I'm guessing it must be a negligible difference unless there are digital pedals.

I really can't explain this. It's just that analog gear has less latency than digital stuff. I have no ulterior motive, I also own a Kemper and like it. But it definitely isn't as responsive/tactile as a tube amp.

Easy to test this for oneself.


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## nightlight (Apr 12, 2021)

nickgray said:


> There's nothing prohibiting you from running just the amp sim into a clean solid state power amp. You won't get the exact impedance curve of your cab (though Axe Fx does allow you to tweak impedance curves and tons of other parameters), but the point is is that you really don't have to use IRs if you don't want to.



No one is disputing that and that's what a lot of guys are doing. I do it with my Kemper as well. 

The amp in the room debate, however, specifically refers to the sound of a modeller through an FRFR device or studio monitors. It is the sound of a mixed up cab, as opposed to just the "amp+cab" in a room. A lot of people get turned off modellers as a result. 

Also, it's worth noting that if you run a modeller through a cabinet, you lose out on authenticity of the tone because your sound is coloured. That is the flip side. 




nickgray said:


> As I've mentioned, the latency is extremely small on the hardware modelers. I highly, highly doubt that you would be able to blind A/B a 2ms latency digital path vs a near instant analogue path.
> 
> It's something that's quite easy to test too - take something with a known latency and start adding extra latency via a 100% wet delay to it. Personally, I start to feel it at around 5ms and only with headphones on, and only when really, really focusing and paying attention to my picking. At 7-8ms it's relatively noticeable, although it's useable. Closer to 10ms is where it starts feeling weird.
> 
> ...



This is just stretching what I said. I don't have a problem with modellers. They are just not as "fast" or "instantaneous" as a tube amp. 

Also, just run a pitch shifter on a modeller and tell me what you think. On the Kemper, I think the latency doubles or even becomes two-and-a-half times. 

Latency definitely exists and can be an issue in various settings. Do a search for Steve Vai and latency.

I don't think what I am saying is debatable, and I have no axe to grind really. If anyone is in SG, I would invite you to play through my Kemper and then through my tube amps and tell me if you don't notice that latency when A/Bing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 12, 2021)

Our brains are funny, imperfect things. We can say the same about our perceptions.


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## nightlight (Apr 12, 2021)

I finally get back to my house next week (phew). Let me try and set up a test. What I'll do is mic up my guitar strings and then feed a signal to my Kemper and to my tube amp. 

Rather than record the direct signal, what I'll do is record the miced up cab tone so we can eliminate the time taken for the microphone signal to get to my interface as being a factor. 

I'll record both waveforms and it should be a good way to determine how much latency one has versus the other. 

I did something similar once before with my Trick Drums laser triggers and the bass drum head of my electronic drums. It was a huge disappointment for me when I saw that the laser triggers were slower than the bass drum head. 

This may not be a factor for some, but think of this in a recording environment, where you will not be as tight as you could be. Or in a live performance, where you would be getting a better result from one trigger instead of another.

Again, I have no axe to grind. I just think lower latency is better when playing any instrument. I don't think Vai is just making it up. A lot of other people will say the same thing, we all experience things in a different way, just like some people can hear higher frequencies than other people.


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## Millul (Apr 12, 2021)

God, I miss my ENGL stack.
Or, the Laney VH100R I had prior to that.

The plugins I've recently tried out do sound great, and are indeed a much better fit for apartment use, amd I guess also for recording - but, if possible, try to get a gig-volume tube stack a try, it is a visceral experience.


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## HaMMerHeD (Apr 13, 2021)

I have a 6505 MH and, while it sounds different, it's not really "better" than Archetype Nolly.


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## Rachmaninoff (Apr 13, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> But I have never played through a real tube amp. Yikes, I guess?
> 
> I guess for economic reasons and space and loudness reasons too. When I did have enough money to buy a tube amp, I just bought a Helix LT instead, seemed much more complete for what I was doing. A bit crazy to think about..



I have played on many tube amps, but I never wanted to buy one. I always liked digital modelers for two reasons:

* lots of different sounds;
* easy to transport.

The crowd doesn't give a shit about how good your tone is, most of them are completely tone deaf. When you play a real tube amp, you do this *to please yourself*. And these days the modelers are really good. Playing a real tube amp is an unbeatable experience of course, but quite frankly, not worth the hassle to me.


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## 4Eyes (Apr 13, 2021)

I've been long time amp sim player, mostly plugins, but wasn't really satisfied with the feel (that was about a decade ago). back then, I realized how much of a difference just real TS pedal in front an audio interface made, so I started to build my rig with "silent" playing in mind. I got couple of pedals, I helped to develop small tube amp (moded SLO circuit with 12ax7 used as power amp tube), which friend of mine built for me, got reactive load and used IR loader pedal. My intention with the rig was to be able to generate "mix ready" guitar sound, outside of PC and couple of bells and whistles that are possible in this age. I was really satisfied with how it sounded, how it felt, in my opinion it was best of both worlds. along that way I have tried couple of modellers and I just couldn't consider any of them as a gamechanger for me that would force me to replace my tube amp+IR rig. then on some occasions, during past year, I have tried couple of modern day amps sims (Neural DSP, ML sound lab, Brainworx..) and I was really amazed what a giant leap forward they've made in terms of feel as well. compared side by side with my tube amp setup, they felt great, sounded great and I've realized I don't need my physical rig anymore, at least not for my playing at home. decision has been made and I'm on amp sims again. 

rig is just a tool, virtual amps sound and feel as good as real amps, today. it's more important what you create with the tools you have, than what you have used.


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## NoodleFace (Apr 13, 2021)

There are certain harmonic and dynamic qualities that a tube amp provides that I've never gotten out of a modeler, however I've never used a Kemper so I really can't be definitive on that. To my ears a tube amp has a more natural sound. Maybe I'm even more silly because I prefer the 5150 over all new modern amps.

Everyone has their reasons for what they're playing through.


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## Brett Taylor (Apr 13, 2021)

budda said:


> Crank a 1000w power amp and a good digital rig through a large amount of speakers and the effect should be the same. Ymmv



yeah, nah


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## budda (Apr 13, 2021)

Brett Taylor said:


> yeah, nah



Sure.


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## res_star7 (Apr 13, 2021)

I have been playing guitar on and off for almost 20 years (and am just ok ) but have a similar history. I had never owned an actual tube amp until a couple of months ago. I had played through a few in stores and ones that friends have owned but never really got to feel one out. The last big purchase I had made amp-wise was around 8 or 9 years ago I bought an AxeFX II mk II, a Matrix power amp, and played them through an Orange 4x12. Loved that rig. Still do. But was having issues with sounding as full as the other guitarist in my band while practicing. Decided to snag a new amp because I had never owned a tube. Bought the Invective 120. I absolutely love it, and don't regret the switch.

Would I say having a tube amp is a necessity, absolutely not. But I'm glad I did it.


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## Agramal (Apr 13, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> It's almost embarrassing to say it, guitar has been a huge part of my life since many years ago, I have practiced like hell, I have recorded albums of my own & my friends bands in my bedroom. But I have never played through a real tube amp. Yikes, I guess?
> 
> I guess for economic reasons and space and loudness reasons too. When I did have enough money to buy a tube amp, I just bought a Helix LT instead, seemed much more complete for what I was doing. A bit crazy to think about..
> 
> Anyone can relate? Have a similar confession?



It's really not that big of a deal. FWIW, I'm trying to sell off my old, heavy, loud Fender Twin so I can replace it with a Helix. Tube amps can sound great but seriously, in 2021, they're overload, often a pain to maintain, and expensive. And modelers have by and large closed the "audio gap." I've been to so many concerts now, from Metallica to Meshuggah to Failure, where the bands were using modelers and you could not tell the difference at all. 

And I'll be honest - I've been playing guitar for 31 years now. The various Neural DSP amp sims you can buy on sale for less than $100 most days sound better than _many_ of the tube amps I've played through in my time.


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## TedEH (Apr 13, 2021)

Rachmaninoff said:


> The crowd doesn't give a shit about how good your tone is, most of them are completely tone deaf. When you play a real tube amp, you do this *to please yourself*.


In fairness, for me at least, that element of pleasing myself while playing is sort of the priority. Especially during _current world circumstances_ where we're not playing shows anyway - I would want the gear most likely to make me feel good playing it as opposed to something that serves more practical show-playing purposes.

I'd also make the argument that in a recording scenario (vs live) the audience can be much more discerning. I find the average person doesn't necessarily know when or why something sounds good, but they can definitely tell when something _doesn't._ IMO audio is doing it's job well when you _don't_ notice things.


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## DaZoner (Apr 13, 2021)

Can I ask why some people are complaining that tube amps are a pain to maintain? I'm going to assume these people are referring to tubes. Tubes very rarely need replacement. 12ax7's are good for years and years. Power tubes last a very long time as well.

If these ppl are referring to capacitors. Then honestly, the digital gear could very well die before the caps in a tube amp (15-20 years).

Not trying to stoke the fire. I'm simply trying to understand in case I missed something.


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## Voodoo Marshall (Apr 13, 2021)

JCM 800 50W > Full Stack (Marshall 1960A and 1960B cabs) with a MXR micro amp, tube screamer and ADA flanger up front. Try it, you'll like it. Now a little later in life, I still play tube amps live. Same JCM 800 but now a 2x12 w/ Celestion V30s and a Bugera Power Soak 1 for really small rooms (BTW, power soaks eat your tubes alive). Still have the 1960A but damn that's a beast to move around.

One solid state that I've used live and recording that I think sounds pretty fair is the Tech 21 Trademark 60. Other SS amps I've tried just haven't cut it for my ears.

What has changed is I can't remember mic'ing an amp for recording in the last couple years. I use Neural DSP stuff and it sounds great and there's none of the old "I haven't moved the mic or the cab and I haven't changed any setting and it sounds different today" bullshit. It's very realistic. 

All the above said, stand in front of a cranked tube stack. Schwing!


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## budda (Apr 13, 2021)

If you run your tube amp hard and often (getting the power amp to work for a few hours a week) and you gig often/tour, you're swapping power amp tubes once a year to "guarantee" optimal performance. Odds are you bias the amp when that happens, and have a tech do a once-over so you're not lugging a paperweight to your next show. We did our 800's when the tube store had their xmas sale and it was around $250+ between the tubes and tech work per year.

If you play quietly in your basement and jam 3 times a year then yeah, tube amps require less maintenance - which is still more maintenance than a modeller.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 13, 2021)

@nickgray @nightlight 
While I don't believe that any human can detect a latency of 2ms, I do think adding an additional 2ms to the pre-existing degree of latency could be the difference between the overall latency being perceptible or not. 
Some people are slightly more sensitive to latency than others and their is significantly less tolerance for the person producing the sound (especially if it's their voice) compared to someone who is purely listening. A quick Google search suggests that perceptible latency is approximately 10ms for the person making the noise and 15ms for a listener.
Sound takes approximately 2.9ms to travel 1 metre, so distance from the speaker / instrument can contribute a significant amount of latency.

A hypothetical example:
*Analogue rig*
Guitarist standing 3 metres from their half-stack = 8.7ms latency (not perceptible as <10ms)
Add 1ms latency for cabling etc. = 9.7ms latency (not perceptible as <10ms)
_Standing further from the amp would introduce perceived latency._

*Digital modeller rig*
Guitarist standing 3 metres from their half-stack = 8.7ms latency (not perceptible as <10ms)
Add 1ms latency for cabling etc. = 9.7ms latency (not perceptible as <10ms)
Add 2ms latency for the digital modeller = 11.7ms latency (perceptible as >10ms)
_Standing further from the amp would increase the perceived latency. Standing closer to the amp would reduce/eliminate the perceived latency._

Some people wouldn't notice the 11.7ms latency at all, some would notice it but not be bothered, some would notice it and feel slightly less "connected" to their instrument, and some would find it completely intolerable. For people in the latter three groups, how strongly they notice the latency and their mindset would both factor into which group they fall within. I imagine some people find it more/less tolerable depending on the speed and techniques they are playing with (strumming full chords, power chords, sweeping, legato, staccato, bends vibrato etc.), plus whether they are playing clean or with lots of gain/distortion. While the latency may seem negligible when it's only just perceptible, it could be the difference between hearing a note as your pick strikes the string and not hearing it until after the pick contact has finished (potentially not until you are physically playing the next note, if latency is really bad). Personally, I think I would find it hardest to tolerate latency when tapping (wouldn't feel right), or perhaps when adding vibrato at the top of a bend (would potentially need to begin vibrato before hearing the bend reach the correct pitch, so it would rely on the player's feel rather than ears).

For my example, I used 2ms which is right at the lowest end of latency introduced by modelling (i.e. Helix). A Kemper (considered by most to have no perceptible latency) introduces an additional 3.4ms. I believe a lot of digital rigs actually have 10ms+ latency and even this is very low compared to some older technology.

Other considerations:
A lot of people with digital home studio rigs will be sitting at their PC (right next to a pair of monitor speakers), so the additional latency of the digital equipment is at least partially mitigated compared to someone standing several metres away from a half-stack.
Using wireless Bluetooth headphones, instead of speakers or wired headphones, could easily introduce an extra 30ms+ latency.


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## nickgray (Apr 13, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Add 1ms latency for cabling etc



Cabling? It's an electrical signal, there's no latency to speak of here.



Neon_Knight_ said:


> Guitarist standing 3 metres from their half-stack



It's not as simple as that. The delay introduced by digital gear is a delay that happens before the signal reaches the speakers. The delay due to sound propagation is a different thing though. With a latency-free analogue path the signal reaches the speakers almost instantly, and then it's up to the sound waves to reach your ears. But a very important additional consideration are the reflections - we virtually never hear reflection-free sounds, especially when talking about sounds in a closed space. Plus there's speakers vs. headphones, imo you're more sensitive to latency when playing through headphones.



Neon_Knight_ said:


> A lot of people with digital home studio rigs will be sitting at their PC



There are some extra considerations that people might miss completely. If you have any kind of DSP processing happening in your monitors (which is not uncommon) or in your sound card (or a mixer), it will introduce some latency, potentially milliseconds. Sound card drivers might not report the roundtrip latency correctly, it's best to measure it manually with software that does just that. Some plugins can introduce delay all by themselves (as an extra buffer for processing), I'm pretty sure that some (maybe all) Neural sims do that. If you have a compressor or a limiter with a lookahead option turned on, it will introduce extra latency as well.


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## TedEH (Apr 13, 2021)

I would assume that some element of the brain/psychoacoustics or whatever word you want to use is able to compensate for any "latency" related to distance from your source - as part of how you perceive the distance and positioning of a sound.

I hesitate to comment on dedicated modelling hardware (Axe / Kemper / etc) since I've never used them, but on a PC I imagine there are so many extra things in the chain that _could_ potentially add to latency. Your audio driver is going to report back some kind of latency, but it wouldn't surprise me if some software overhead added to that number, plus anything you stick in the chain that the driver can't know about - maybe you've piped things through another mixer or headphone amp, or maybe your speakers have some kind of processing on them that isn't being compensated for, etc.

Edit: Mostly ninja'd by nickgrey


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 13, 2021)

Arguing over ~1ms of latency is the Millennial version of arguing loudness between 50 and 100 watt amps. 

Sure, there's a difference, but IRL, there really isn't.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 13, 2021)

budda said:


> If you run your tube amp hard and often (getting the power amp to work for a few hours a week) and you gig often/tour, you're swapping power amp tubes once a year to "guarantee" optimal performance. Odds are you bias the amp when that happens, and have a tech do a once-over so you're not lugging a paperweight to your next show. We did our 800's when the tube store had their xmas sale and it was around $250+ between the tubes and tech work per year.
> 
> If you play quietly in your basement and jam 3 times a year then yeah, tube amps require less maintenance - which is still more maintenance than a modeller.


Maintenance costs / effort something that a lot of people (myself included in the past) seem to overlook when deciding between tube and solid-state. If I was replacing valves regularly, it would feel necessary to learn how to do it myself (like a lot of us do our own guitar setups and pickup swaps), but it's certainly not something I'd currently feel at all comfortable taking on.
I bought a used JCM 900 combo off eBay almost 10 years ago and it arrived with a blown power amp tube and several noisy pots. The seller contributed to the repairs, but even so it was a nightmare to find someone locally who could work on it. My local guitar store, who provide decent luthiery services but not amp repairs, could only recommend shipping it to Marshall. I contacted a host of companies that only work on solid-state (or wanted to charge a huge fee upfront just to look at it) and various independent people who had websites but had long retired...eventually ended up driving it 50 miles to a random guy who lives in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. Turned out to be a very genuine guy with reasonable prices (I think the service cost only £120, including 4x JJ EL34 and replacing several pots), but who knows if he'll still be working next time around. I haven't needed to replace the valves again since, because its not my primary amp and I went several years without playing much in general (due to an injury).


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 13, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Arguing over ~1ms of latency is the Millennial version of arguing loudness between 50 and 100 watt amps.
> 
> Sure, there's a difference, but IRL, there really isn't.


Or arguing over whether an EVH 5150 / Peavey 5150 / 6505 / 6505+ has most gain or the best clean channel, while only ever using the red channel on mid-gain settings


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## beerandbeards (Apr 13, 2021)

KailM said:


> If you haven't stood in front of a 4x12 powered by a 100+ watt high-gain tuber cranked to pants-rattling levels you haven't lived.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 13, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Cabling? It's an electrical signal, there's no latency to speak of here.


Maybe 0.000000000000000001ms rather than 0ms  My aim was to factor in some very minor latency for potential latency somewhere in the chain, as I otherwise expected someone to retort that an analogue rig doesn#t strictly have no latency whatsoever.



nickgray said:


> Plus there's speakers vs. headphones, imo you're more sensitive to latency when playing through headphones.


With my modelling amp (Peavey Vypyr VIP 2) I "feel" latency with headphones but not without. I can't readily connect headphones to my valve amp for comparison.


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## nightlight (Apr 13, 2021)

TedEH said:


> In fairness, for me at least, that element of pleasing myself while playing is sort of the priority.



Phrasing. 



Neon_Knight_ said:


> @nickgray @nightlight
> While I don't believe that any human can detect a latency of 2ms, I do think adding an additional 2ms to the pre-existing degree of latency could be the difference between the overall latency being perceptible or not.
> Some people are slightly more sensitive to latency than others and their is significantly less tolerance for the person producing the sound (especially if it's their voice) compared to someone who is purely listening. A quick Google search suggests that perceptible latency is approximately 10ms for the person making the noise and 15ms for a listener.




By extension, if the latency is 8ms with one device and the other is 10ms, you can feel 2ms of latency. 

That's an extreme example, but I can cite the example of tube amps versus my Kemper, all things being considered equal such as distance from the amp, etc. 

Rather than measure the latency with your ears, you feel it. It's basically the difference in the time between when you touch your pick to the string and the time it takes for the sound to emanate. 

By that, I don't mean you perceive some lag in isolation. But play one, then play the other, you should be able to feel the difference in "immediacy".


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 13, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> It's almost embarrassing to say it, guitar has been a huge part of my life since many years ago, I have practiced like hell, I have recorded albums of my own & my friends bands in my bedroom. But I have never played through a real tube amp. Yikes, I guess?
> 
> I guess for economic reasons and space and loudness reasons too. When I did have enough money to buy a tube amp, I just bought a Helix LT instead, seemed much more complete for what I was doing. A bit crazy to think about..
> 
> Anyone can relate? Have a similar confession?


I have never played a tube amp either, that being said I am a 15 year old guitarist and can't afford any piece of gear that costs more than $600. I get all my tones from a Line 6 POD HD500 (about 90% of my favorite guitarists use one of these XD) and it's the best tone I can get right now.

I am curious, does the POD sound anything like a real amp setup? Here's one of my original songs for comparison. :-D


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## budda (Apr 13, 2021)

@nightlight who do you know who's a/b'd amps and complained about latency?

If I try 2 amps in a store, and one's further away, should I be complaining about the latency there?


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## SCJR (Apr 13, 2021)

Really I'd say all you need is one or maybe to tube amps if you're going that way. The real tonal difference imo are the speakers. And cabinets take up even more space than tube amps do lol.


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## Decimater1 (Apr 13, 2021)

You def do not NEED one, but there is a great feeling being in front of a half stack and dialing in your tone with 5 knobs rather than 16 computers.

I sold my tube amps long ago, but for a bedroom artist, it just isn't as practical with the weight, size and maintenance needed.

On one hand tubes are amazing, as it is ready to roll. ( after warming up)
On the other.... you are limited in your sound profiles and possibilities.

To each their own? But nothing to be ashamed of anymore.


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## StevenC (Apr 13, 2021)

The only time I ever played through an Axe FX I noticed unplayable latency. I assume it was set up wrong, because I couldn't notice any latency in 30+ year old H3000s.

On the other hand, I do notice a difference in immediacy between my tube amps.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 13, 2021)

nightlight said:


> Phrasing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Andertons / Rob Chapman did a YouTube video comparing valves amps to profiles that they had created using the exact same amps. Blind tested through the same cabinet, they though one of the amps must be the Kemper, as they mistakenly thought they could "feel latency". The only difference they could genuinely attribute to the Kemper was a lack of 'tube sag' compared to the real amp. 

While this one isolated test doesn't prove/disprove anything, it shows that our mind can play tricks on us.


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## TedEH (Apr 13, 2021)

nightlight said:


> Phrasing.


I stand by what I said.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 13, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> I have never played a tube amp either, that being said I am a 15 year old guitarist and can't afford any piece of gear that costs more than $600. I get all my tones from a Line 6 POD HD500 (about 90% of my favorite guitarists use one of these XD) and it's the best tone I can get right now.
> 
> I am curious, does the POD sound anything like a real amp setup? Here's one of my original songs for comparison. :-D




I bet you can get some good tones from the POD too. The video you linked, I'm not a fan of the mix, but I am impressed with the playing and the composition! There's no way I could play or write something like that when I was 15. Good work!


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## DaZoner (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm just going to say this. If a person has the choice to choose between an amp or a modeller (assuming you have a house, money, no kids, etc..blah blah blah, don't have to worry about maintenance...), That person would choose an amp.

LOL


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## Geezer (Apr 13, 2021)

I started early on with tubes lucky enough to have inherited a Fender Deluxe Reverb. Later tried the Digitech GSP21 then the Line 6 pods (almost good enough) but ultimately bought a EVH5150 tube head. All of them I ran through 4x12 cabs. If your ears really tell you they're happy listening to "modelled" waveforms then stick with what makes you happy, but my ears say I ultimately want to hear the "analogness" of tubes. I do believe a tube power section is the more important aspect vs the preamp section.


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## TedEH (Apr 13, 2021)

DaZoner said:


> That person would choose an amp.


Which person? Lots of people have said in this thread they'd do the opposite.


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## bigbadorange (Apr 13, 2021)

I am a big fan of modelers. And an even bigger fan of tube amps. The best route is both and use them where appropriate.


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## nightlight (Apr 13, 2021)

Amp sims are definitely quite good. You could definitely use one live or on a recording and it would be very difficult for anyone to tell the difference.

This was a a test I did with an amp sim into a power amp and then into a 4x12. I recorded that output using a microphone and then tried to mix it. I think I shared this before, but it's quite interesting. 

The amp sim is the VST Amp Rack, which you get with Cubase. I am using the Frederick Thorendal preset, which runs into a Fryette Power Station and then an Emperor 4x12 before being captured with a mic.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 13, 2021)

DaZoner said:


> I'm just going to say this. If a person has the choice to choose between an amp or a modeller (assuming you have *a house*, money, no kids, etc..blah blah blah, don't have to worry about maintenance...), That person would choose an amp.
> 
> LOL


Some of us have a house but it's not detached and we have neighbours to worry about. Also, cranked tubes really don't fit in with a night owl's playing schedule


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## c7spheres (Apr 13, 2021)

TLDR;
Tubes vs Digital. Use whatever you like best but be aware of it being potentially unrepairable in the future. Tube amps are actually easier to maintain and repair in the long term than digital, but that don't matter because digital users will likey upgrade by then anyways. This may not hold true in the future though with tube factorys dwindling.




DaZoner said:


> Can I ask why some people are complaining that tube amps are a pain to maintain? I'm going to assume these people are referring to tubes. Tubes very rarely need replacement. 12ax7's are good for years and years. Power tubes last a very long time as well.
> 
> If these ppl are referring to capacitors. Then honestly, the digital gear could very well die before the caps in a tube amp (15-20 years).
> 
> Not trying to stoke the fire. I'm simply trying to understand in case I missed something.




- In many areas it's difiicult to find anyone who can repair tube amps, but I'd argue it's even more difficult to find someone to repair a surface mount or through hole pcb (even though many people have that skill). Also, once digital units are no longer made it can be impossible to source certain parts and chips without getting it from another unit.

- Many tube amps use the same type of parts, and even if an exact replacement can't be found there's usually something that can be used in it's place (like capacitors and tube sockets). Tech's can't just go write some code to program a firmware chip for a complex modelling unit. So even getting a part doesn't mean a reapir can be done.

- Everyone out there with old digital units (me included) with their Lexicons, TC's, Eventides, Rocktrons etc have a bunch of unservicable units. These companies either don't service them at all or are extremely limited in their ability to service them and it's usually because of parts availability. - It's why so many great units stopped being produced. To get them serviced is exponentially more difficult than a tube amp. Tube amp parts and repair people are far easier to come by than some obscure custom made pcb component. If your 2290 breaks, good luck and pray and have a lot of money. Maybe buy a couple extras just for parts. I know theres "a guy" out there that can do stuff but he's one of the only people left and he'll die a month before your unit breaks.

- Digital is more like cell phones. They don't repair phone boards usually. Normally they just replace the entire board with another one that's been tested and then recycle the old one because it's faster and less work. Good luck getting that 30 year old cell phone repaired, and why would you want to?

- Strictly talking maintenance though, I'd say digital is easier to maintain because they just work forever until a componenet fails, just a like a tube amp, but tubes are a part that is expected to burn out. There's almost no maintenance with tube amps other than tubes (caps every 15-20 years?). There's also a million less parts in a tube amp.

- With Digital there is almost no maintenance at all until it fails and by that time it will be impossible or near impossible to fix. Even if it can be fixed it won't be worth it because the new tech out will be likely more desirable, wheras with tube amps it's worth putting the money into.


-- I think something being missed is old vs new digtal era. Thru hole vs surface mount. Old desirable units (like a TC2290 or H3000 for example) are something people would want to repair and they have something special about them.
- Something modern (like an AxeFX) might be very desirable and worth fixing if possible, but by the time it breaks there will likely be something better for the money out there, and the old unit won't be missed. It will actually be better with each generation with something like an AxeFx (assuming the business model stays the same, pun intended : )
- With these old legacy gear units though, there's stuff they can do that nothing else can. They have quirks and opertate weird. People like quirks and unique tones/features. Modern stuff doesn't do that in the same way but may eventually become that way. Time will tell
- If these old units don't get fixed they will be missed and people will lose certain tones and functionality they can't obtain with modern equipment, potentially.
- Eventually units like the Axe FX will over take everything and tube amps will be like old muscle cars. Not because it's better, necessarily, but because it's what most people want.
- Potentialy an AxeFx could fall into the same category as the 2290's and older gear, especially if the company folds under or changes it's model and they start making stupid crappy gear causing the AxeFX to become an old desirable "legacy" unit. Many companies have done this.
- I would not be surprised if in 20-30 years people are lusting after an old Axe FX III because nothing like it has ever been made since they stopped production, and they are impossible to repair so the numbers of them out there are basically none because of compenent sourcing. It's the way of digital. They make legacy products, then everything after that is a watered down derivative of what was once great. Only a couple companies aren't a shell of what they used to be it would seem. So far Fractal seems to be doing a great job.

- If you think about this stuff like old muscle car vs new sports car a lot of stuff lines up in terms of maintenence, realiability costs, features etc..
- Tube amps are becoming more and more niche and so are the repairs, but digital repairs are in the same boat unless whatever unit we have happens to still be servicable.

- Any digital unit not being currently serviced by the manufacturer is basically in the same boat (if not more often in a in a worse sinking boat) than a tube amp, imo.

- Play through what you like. It's all good.




nightlight said:


> .......... you can feel 2ms of latency.
> 
> That's an extreme example, but I can cite the example of tube amps versus my Kemper, all things being considered equal such as distance from the amp, etc.
> 
> ...



- This is why Steve Vai was saying he doesn't use AxeFx as his main rig. It's the latency disconnect for him.
- Someone earlier mentioned the difference. Maybe it was you. There is different locations for latency, one is heard, one is felt.
- One happens in relation to the listener from the source. This is common to all system and people. It's the nature of speakers and has nothing to do with tube or digital. Everyone is use to that and knows nothing different from that. Our brains compensate for it and we don't think about it unless it becomes an issue (like in a large venue)

- Another latency is from digital processing. It can be felt in the pick attack vs amp response. It's especially noticable if you play fast. It's located between the preamp input and speaker output and is in addition to the delay coming from a speaker because of listener distance from source. - It's different than the other type because once sound starts coming out the speaker with the first type your brain gets use to it very quickly and compensates. It goes unnoticed.- The second type is occuring within this and is within the sound field "constant" or "carrier wave" (for lack of better term) and it feels like there's a disconnect, just like a delay signal with the direct taken out. As an experiment put a 2-10 ms delay on a totally wet signal with direct taken out. That's basically what this is in practice. Some people may be totally annoyed with it, others don't care.

- Some people can compensate and some can't. If you can't compensate for it don't feel bad, netiher can Steve Vai. If you can compensate for it then feel good, because you can do something Steve Vai can't do! : )

- I think in practice and in reality though unless your doing something very specific or very fast you won't notice any problem in sound or feel. Buffer settings in your daw or room reflections in the room would likely be more problematic if anything, imo.


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## TedEH (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm excited for the future where instead of owning any amps or modellers, we just subscribe to a service that pipes our playing to the cloud, where high powered compute farms generate the most realistic state of the art simulations of amps and in-the-room playing feedback to stream it right back to us for playback in VR, including realistic venue acoustic modelling and the immersive visual of the crowd mostly made up of the band's girlfriends and the 3 other gear enthusiasts who happen to live in the area.


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## torchlord (Apr 13, 2021)

mongey said:


> there is def a point to this. when I had an axe2 XL one of the things I didn't like was that it felt like just another piece of technology to maintain and deal with. FW updates and all that . where as my amp and pedals I just sit down and turn it on and its a get away from all that stuff



I have the Ultra and this is pretty much one of the reasons I bought another tube amp instead of version 2. I don't like having to tweak excessively. I spent a year and half trying to find something that replicates to some extent a tube amp sound with it, and I realized it is pretty impossible.

I think one of my biggest issues is at the time I was using it and the other guy in the band had Peavey Triple X and it just destroyed my sound every time we practiced. There is only so many times where you go fuck it and get one too.

I don't much care for the repair bills but I probably will be sometime before I give up a tube amp entirely. You don't have to buy the most expensive tube amp, 5 watt combo's are out their for not much money and pair that with the Captor X.

I'm hopeful that more tube amp companies and attenuator companies like Revv and Two Notes Torpedoes' start doing collaborations like they did when the built the Revv G20 that has some of TN tech in it.

I think it is pretty clarifying that high end modeler's like AXE FX 3 is redesigning a new firmware that is going to change all the sounds of everyone of their amp models with the Cignus firmware because they realized hey things still don't sound as good as a tube amp. I mean how could you not realized still that your flag ship unit doesn't sound like a real tube amp, when most people know it doesn't, but they use it because it is convenient and sounds good if you work and tweak a it some. I think it is more likely that they finally figured out a new algorithm to finally get it that much closer to a tube amp. I think they always known they were still off the mark but just couldn't admit it to their customers.


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## torchlord (Apr 13, 2021)

Strobe said:


> I get it. My tube amp mostly sits in the basement. I use a digital amp for my bass and a kemper for my guitars live. The latter is a little awkward, in that I love love love the Kemper but I technically still need someone to own tube amps if I am got get new profiles



This is true but I believe they do have a store and you can buy profile packs all over the place these days. I used to own a Kemper once but sold it because they were a new company and the one I got had electromagnetic interference noise when I plugged it in the basement. Probably should have kept it but oh well and had it fixed via warranty return.


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## torchlord (Apr 13, 2021)

Choop said:


> It'd be worth trying sometime if you have the opportunity since its just a different kind of experience coaxing out tones from a good tube amp. The biggest differences to me when hearing a tube amp in a room vs a SS amp is more in the clean/low gain dynamics, and the overall fullness and decay of tube overdrive just feels great. Modelers have gotten really good at emulating this however, and it's hard to argue the practicality of going with something like a Helix over an expensive tube amp that isn't nearly as flexible on its own.



They have got better at modelling the tuby low end but if you listen closer it is in the high end where the modeler's fall apart. To me modeler's sound like your playing through static EQ and they are usually pretty harsh in the highest frequencies where a tube amp can be pretty darn bright but still sound smooth to point where you still enjoy your sound.


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## torchlord (Apr 13, 2021)

Definitely! Two anecdotes:

1. A decade ago I had dialed in my old Axe-Fx Standard at a quiet rehearsal. The next gig, it was torture fixing my levels and tones at full stage volume. If you are going to play live, make sure you first dial in your tones at full gig volume along with your band to make sure everything works together.

2. At a jam with a few other guitarists, vocals, drums, and bass, I was using the AX8 through one QSC HPR122i, some of my favorite tones were not cutting through, and I didn't want to compensate by just trying to overpower them with sheer wattage. Fortunately, I had plenty of different presets for different tones and found a great one that had the correct frequencies to cut right through while allowing the other instruments to have their own sonic space. It didn't have anything to do with tube vs modeler. It just depends on which frequencies you emphasize to cut through the mix.[/QUOTE]

Your point with number 2 is spot on. I think this is why many still have a cab on stage to keep yourself having your own sound point that is just you and not anyone else blended in that you have to fight over.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 13, 2021)

It's pretty simple. 

If you know your gear and how it works you'll get great tone no matter what exactly that gear happens to be. If you don't know what you're doing you're going to have a bad time and bad tone.


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## torchlord (Apr 13, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Maybe 0.000000000000000001ms rather than 0ms  My aim was to factor in some very minor latency for potential latency somewhere in the chain, as I otherwise expected someone to retort that an analogue rig doesn#t strictly have no latency whatsoever.
> 
> 
> With my modelling amp (Peavey Vypyr VIP 2) I "feel" latency with headphones but not without. I can't readily connect headphones to my valve amp for comparison.



I read somewhere that the Vypyr is actually solid state not modelling and that is likely why you don't feel any latency outside the headphones.


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## torchlord (Apr 13, 2021)

SCJR said:


> Really I'd say all you need is one or maybe to tube amps if you're going that way. The real tonal difference imo are the speakers. And cabinets take up even more space than tube amps do lol.



I agree the biggest tonal difference is the speakers and second is probably the guitar pickup. I've done a lot of preamp tube swapping with my one amp and I realized that if you put the wrong tube combination in to the amp it can really make a good speaker have some rather bad characteristics where you don't think it is that great sounding, but if you get the right preamp tubes in that speaker you thought was poop winds up being a winner.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 13, 2021)

torchlord said:


> I read somewhere that the Vypyr is actually solid state not modelling and that is likely why you don't feel any latency outside the headphones.



Vypyr amps are digital modeling amps paired with a solid state power section, just like Line 6 Spiders, Roland Cubes, Boss Katana, Yamaha THR, etc.


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## BornToLooze (Apr 14, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's pretty simple.
> 
> If you know your gear and how it works you'll get great tone no matter what exactly that gear happens to be. If you don't know what you're doing you're going to have a bad time and bad tone.



Yep. That's why as much as I hate modelers I won't diss them. Given what I had when I started playing guitar, I know how to mess with an amp and tweak it a little while I'm playing, and work the controls on the guitar, and how to try and figure out how to do effects in songs without having said effect pedal.


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## Lopp (Apr 14, 2021)

torchlord said:


> Definitely! Two anecdotes:
> Your point with number 2 is spot on. I think this is why many still have a cab on stage to keep yourself having your own sound point that is just you and not anyone else blended in that you have to fight over.



Yeah. In my case, I have a QSC monitor on stage facing away from the audience and pointed at me instead of a guitar cab. That way the sound can get dialed in through the PA without the mix varying depending on whether or not someone is standing in front of the cab in the audience.


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## 4Eyes (Apr 14, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's pretty simple.
> 
> If you know your gear and how it works you'll get great tone no matter what exactly that gear happens to be. If you don't know what you're doing you're going to have a bad time and bad tone.


AMEN!


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## Hoss632 (Apr 14, 2021)

I've never played through a real tube amp either. I'd like to but for home use it makes MUCH more sense for me to get a good computer and just use one of the current plug ins that are on the market. A lot of them are VERY close to the real thing tonally. The new neural dsp soldano is shockingly close.


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## Strobe (Apr 14, 2021)

torchlord said:


> They have got better at modelling the tuby low end but if you listen closer it is in the high end where the modeler's fall apart. To me modeler's sound like your playing through static EQ and they are usually pretty harsh in the highest frequencies where a tube amp can be pretty darn bright but still sound smooth to point where you still enjoy your sound.



I would describe it as "If I listen to a tube and a Kemper A/B verrrry carefully I can tell that they are different in the upper mids." Not one is better, just that they are different. I am quite confident I could not A/B them in a mix - and I generally have a fairly good ear.

As for the harshness, I do not get that, but it probably depends on your speaker. Most guitar speakers (or even an FRFR like my Mission Gemini 2 which has an adjustable filter to make it more guitar speaker response like) do not seem to have the high end you are speaking of. Of course, this may be different with other modelers. While I have played others, I have only played the Kemper extensively.


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## nightlight (Apr 14, 2021)

c7spheres said:


> - This is why Steve Vai was saying he doesn't use AxeFx as his main rig. It's the latency disconnect for him.
> - Someone earlier mentioned the difference. Maybe it was you. There is different locations for latency, one is heard, one is felt.
> - One happens in relation to the listener from the source. This is common to all system and people. It's the nature of speakers and has nothing to do with tube or digital. Everyone is use to that and knows nothing different from that. Our brains compensate for it and we don't think about it unless it becomes an issue (like in a large venue)
> 
> ...




This is a good way to put it. Worth noting that compensating for latency is alright in a band situation, but when you are talking about recording, some really bad things can happen.

This is why you have the option for direct monitoring on most interfaces. It isn't massive latency, but you will not be as tight as you could be, even if you compensate for it. 

This isn't an issue with most modellers, it's just to illustrate that lower latency is a good thing even if one can compensate for it.


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## SCJR (Apr 14, 2021)

Bands used to be able to focus primarily on writing and performing commercially viable music, now they all to varying degrees within the band wear the producer hat, business manager hat, audio engineer, promoter, etc. Hasn't been the case for a long time. Slash showing up with just his Marshall and Les Paul looking cool and sounding great doesn't get it done on its own anymore. You need to be versatile. 

Same maybe for us in the way that we are all essentially wearing all of these hats to some degree in our own musical ventures, commercial or otherwise. Whether that's making albums, YT videos, audio production for work, etc. I've never had an interest in learning how to record (beyond playing the parts well) and never wanted to touch a DAW, let alone start learning the in's and out's of a modeler. Well here I (we?) are lol. Tube amps become diminishing returns. I see them going the same way as something like a Vista Cruiser. 

Will anything ever be that big, heavy, comfortable, and drive like butter while being some aesthetically fun and timeless in it's own corner of Americana? No, but in 2021 you can keep your terrible gas mileage, lack of power steering, etc. 

FWIW I've noticed that most people who do not find value in modelers simply don't spend the time tackling the learning curve. For me it wasn't weeks or months. It was probably close to a full year of experimenting, researching and trial and error before I truly knew my way around it. That is not synonymous with endless tweaking though, Very often unless I'm looking for something specific for recording or something I just turn it on and I'm on the patch I want to roll with. Often I don't touch a thing except for turning effects on or off which is no different than stepping on a few pedals. Not much different than walking up to a tube amp and pedalboard unless you make it so.


TL;DR: The world isn't as fun anymore lol. If you're involved in any kind of production work flow, however, buy a modeler so that it doesn't have to be more difficult as well. I know the irony in that statement but it only holds true until you get past the learning curve.


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## budda (Apr 14, 2021)

You think bands didnt have to handle all that before? Hm.


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## SCJR (Apr 14, 2021)

budda said:


> You think bands didnt have to handle all that before? Hm.



Should have specified that sitting around waiting to play, so to speak, was the "goal" and the end game of doing all of the things mentioned in the beginning when nobody knew/cared who you were. I don't think a lot of guys were sitting around waiting for all of the gatekeepers of commercial avenues to notice them. Everyone was out on the Strip handing out flyers, playing to nobody and fighting the club owners to get paid, etc.

But were any of them managing band social media accounts, constantly uploading to YT (obviously not just stick with me) in addition to maintaining a commercial band or project if you're trying to monetize that way, be connected to the business end of this industry potentially 24/7 through email and whatever other way they're connected online like we all are, competing in an already hyper-competitive industry with the millions of others who have the same around the clock avenues to compete that you and I do.

The world just doesn't sleep anymore is what I'm getting at and reducing the variables while increasing diversity in production seems to be the way to do it now. A one-trick pony amp that might not even sound it's best until you crank it to a volume that you aren't able to seems to be the antithesis to that. Doesn't make it not fun, just not practical.

We now work more for the same or less unless you've really done well for yourself, in which case right on. But most people have relatively limited time, space, and/or funds to engage music as a profession or a hobby. Given those circumstances the move to digital modeling seems to me completely congruent with what is attainable by people and what is expected of them in this industry today as opposed to 30+ years ago.

If you're a bedroom player and you have the means, space, and lack of neighbors in close proximity to plug into a half stack and be happy well it sounds like you've already won. Just doesn't seem, at least as this thread has reflected, to be the majority of people's situations.


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## VibTDog (Apr 14, 2021)

Just tossing this out there; whenever you look at a "successful" guitar players gear, 99% of the time it's a tube amp. When you see a band live and they roll out the ENGL Powerball II its a little more fierce than a Randall RG1003H.

I used to have a music store. I've played hundreds of amps, ranging from solid state Mackie and QSC rackmount power amps and solid state Peavey amp heads to Soldano SLO's and Diezel VH4's. My personal and professional opinion is that tube amps produce a warmer overall sound with more depth and tone.

With todays technology though, it really does not matter. Tube effects can almost be perfectly reproduced with effects processors and plug-ins. 

I also use an Axe FX 2XL+ and I've never had an issue with latency.


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## Dushan S (Apr 14, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> It's almost embarrassing to say it, guitar has been a huge part of my life since many years ago, I have practiced like hell, I have recorded albums of my own & my friends bands in my bedroom. But I have never played through a real tube amp. Yikes, I guess?
> 
> I guess for economic reasons and space and loudness reasons too. When I did have enough money to buy a tube amp, I just bought a Helix LT instead, seemed much more complete for what I was doing. A bit crazy to think about..
> 
> Anyone can relate? Have a similar confession?


As a teenager in the early 90's I played a LOT of gigs using mostly different pedals, processors and Marshall Valvestate amp. I have even recorded few albums using Digitech 2101. Three reasons, money, modern high gain tube amps were hard to get in my part of the world and I was a bit tone deaf, I always cared more about what I play than about how it sounds. I was always into personal computers (I started in 80's with Commodore Vic20 with its mighty 4kb of memory, LoL) and I was early adopter of everything technology wise. I started using plugins early, still use them, and I got first POD kidney when it got out and then I went through almost every version since then, got HX stomp right now. 

So can you make music and enjoy it without tube amp? Off course you can. But decade ago I started using tube amps live as my life circumstances allowed me to play them, and more I am doing it, the more I like it. At least for me, the feel is quite different compared to playing through any amp sim. It is not about loudness or speakers moving air but about interaction with the amp the way it responds to your fingers, dynamics and the way amp saturates compared to sims. To have similar feel, I have to use much more gain or compression on amp sims, and in time (as I started mixing and producing) I started to notice there are certain frequencies I have to fight with when mixing. A lot of notch EQs to tame the sound! It is bit easier to make a song work in mixing when guitars are recorded with miked amps IMHO. 

So in the last decade I played and sold different tube amps, right now I have JVM 410H and 5150, and I will probably get more tube amps in the future. In my opinion, it just feels bit different to play an amp compared to something like Helix into the PA. And I feel I am old enough to let myself be spoiled and enjoy my time with the guitar the best that I can. 
Does anyone needs to have a tube amp to make good recording or enjoy playing? Not at all. Sims have gone a long way since Zoom FX I had in early 90's.  And in the mix, I feel there is less and less difference. I used only plugins for my bands latest album. But for me, it doesn't feel the same, there is something still missing in the way sims respond to pick attack, how guitar sustains, some strange sound artifacts when bending two strings together etc. So if you are on the budget or you don't have a space where you can let your tube amp roar, you are not missing that much, use what you have and play music! In my case, it is something i just enjoy and appreciate, not something I necessarily need.


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## budda (Apr 14, 2021)

The amount of times ive seen thousands of dollars sound terrible on tour is enough to know the equipment matters way less than everyone thinks it does


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 14, 2021)

VibTDog said:


> Just tossing this out there; whenever you look at a "successful" guitar players gear, 99% of the time it's a tube amp.



Of course, how else are they going to advertise thier signature $300 TS clone or fancy repanelling of a current amp?


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## newbcaster (Apr 15, 2021)

There are lots of reasons I hate getting older. But when i read threads like this I am SOOOOOOOOOO happy I'm a boomer.

1) people who compare modeling to amps have a problem with apples to apples comparison. There is a certain compensation that happens in these kids ears when they listen to modeling amps

a) I live in my mom's basement so this is the best I can do. so modeling amps sound better.

b) i can't afford anything else anyways so....


2) So i have a 64 channel home studio (yes overkill)and a purchase like a Neural is something I write off anyways so.... but holy hell what a retardedly shite company. I don't know if they are broke and afford to build the things OR this make the kids wait and suffer for two years to "build up excitement" is a marketing ploy....

Thats a shite idea. piss off the guys who make money and buy the stuff for you hikikomori who can't afford it or whose gf wont let you buy a real amp because too loud. At this point if it doesn't suck me off, I'm going to load it into my clay tosser and blow it to shit on boomer youtube channel.

3) make apples to apples comparisons. There is no way you can make your headphones as loud or as throaty as a tube amp can be live in the room. even when recorded with SM/royer to your headset it sounds better, just use a power soak of somekind. a real apples to apples comparison is say a kemper or a neural into a power amp, into a cabinet, vs say my Joe satriani MArshall.....you'll find that the capture doesnt have the same features and doesnt sound as good coming out of a kemper Kone. if you dont have anything to A/B it with then yeah it "sounds as good. 

That said, both the kemper and the neural will benefit TREMENDOUSLY from having something like a VHT2150 or a rivera stereo hammer. I can play with a kemper and one of those vs your solidstate "700 watts!!" pedalboard Seymour Duncan thing.... and you little children will have your aass handed to you. Same presets... but those amps are just better in every way.

That said, if you want your tone decided upon by some asshole FOH blending you into the PA... then there will always be gigs for a fat beer drinking guy like me with real amps. even if i eventually , someday somehow get that stupid time wasting piece of crap box called Neural.

PS: the ONLY reason i ordered one in the first place was because I wont need to carry my pedal board anymore and I could custom tailor into a power amp. Less gear for my girlfriend to roadie.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 15, 2021)

Jeez, Gen X'ers these days.


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## Lopp (Apr 15, 2021)

So funny how people are getting so emotional about this stuff.



newbcaster said:


> That said, if you want your tone decided upon by some asshole FOH blending you into the PA...



Of course I don't want a soundman with a perspective from the audience dialing everything in so the mix actually sounds good. My perspective from the stage of the mix the audience hears is so much better than anyone actually listening to the mix from the audience's perspective.

/sarcasm


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## Lopp (Apr 15, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Jeez, Gen X'ers these days.



Kids these days. Boomers. Gen X'ers. Gen Y'ers/Millennials. Gen Z'ers/Zoomers. Alpha'ers.

And don't get me going on Silent Generationers and Greatest Generationers in their nursing homes with their hearing aids!


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## Metropolis (Apr 15, 2021)

VibTDog said:


> Just tossing this out there; whenever you look at a "successful" guitar players gear, 99% of the time it's a tube amp. When you see a band live and they roll out the ENGL Powerball II its a little more fierce than a Randall RG1003H.
> 
> I used to have a music store. I've played hundreds of amps, ranging from solid state Mackie and QSC rackmount power amps and solid state Peavey amp heads to Soldano SLO's and Diezel VH4's. My personal and professional opinion is that tube amps produce a warmer overall sound with more depth and tone.
> 
> ...



Not at all anymore. I can recall few succesful bands using modelers I've seen live in past few years for example. Meshuggah used Fractal, Devin Townsend flipped around using Kemper or Fractal, Amon Amarth probably Kemper too, Amorphis also Kemper... Wintersun using Axe FX Ultra even when Axe FX III were around. Jeff Loomis used most likely Helix with Arch Enemy. Some bands just like to keep things old school and simple in that regard, and use tube amps, rental or their own.


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## SCJR (Apr 15, 2021)

I'm 28 so the first half of my time playing was the more traditional guitar store/magazine/less options than now world and I've seen the Instagram guitarist stuff of today.

Either way as I'm thinking about it: Regardless of your budget or even interest regarding a tube amp as something to own, have these many people not walked into a guitar store in their entire lives? Not even a GC? It's not like tube amps aren't everywhere.


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## newbcaster (Apr 15, 2021)

Lopp said:


> So funny how people are getting so emotional about this stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


having been on both sides I can honestly say the guitarist and FOH are at odds. neither is right, but since this is a guitar forum, i pitch to guitarists with more than welfare money. Meanwhile, a lot of people who work FOH have hearing damage so guitarists are at their mercy of whatver freq's they cant hear.

But i suppose you thought about that before your dunning-kruger response. right? of course(sarcasm).

In all seriousness if you dont have any live juice coming off the stage your band is gonna sound like shit. if its all in the rafters or from the sides...it may as well be the radio. i heard steve miller at the minnesota state fair. eric johnson opened for him. steve is a great musician but sounded like ass. eric sounded like a guitar god with some nuts.

pa's are a necessary evil for guitarists in large environs. but it helps to have loud amps.

PS: yeah I kinda hate the generations after mine. I can finally afford good shit and these tossers wanna come around and say their next generation bean pod sounds as good as my 63 Supro Thunderbolt. no. just no.


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## michael_bolton (Apr 15, 2021)

the ting is "layman audience" dgaf about the tone. 

nothing wrong with "tone chasing" per se - it's a solid hobby in and of itself but out there not too many ppl care if you're using spider vs slo or stock garageband distortion vs neural plugins.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 15, 2021)

newbcaster said:


> I can finally afford good shit and these tossers wanna come around and say their next generation bean pod sounds as good as my 63 Supro Thunderbolt. no. just no.


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## VibTDog (Apr 15, 2021)

Metropolis said:


> Not at all anymore. I can recall few succesful bands using modelers I've seen live in past few years for example. Meshuggah used Fractal, Devin Townsend flipped around using Kemper or Fractal, Amon Amarth probably Kemper too, Amorphis also Kemper... Wintersun using Axe FX Ultra even when Axe FX III were around. Jeff Loomis used most likely Helix with Arch Enemy. Some bands just like to keep things old school and simple in that regard, and use tube amps, rental or their own.



I'm talking about their actual amplifier. I'm assuming the OP is talking about an amp, regardless of what preamp/FX processor/modeler anyone is using. Unless you mean these guys are playing direct into the soundboard with their preamps in live situations. 

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but when I watch rig rundown videos, everyone is sporting a tube amplifier. Regardless of if its a rental or for live only, its still a tube amp.


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## TedEH (Apr 15, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> hobby


Careful, some people reaaaaally don't like the word hobby. Music is serious business only.


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## budda (Apr 15, 2021)

VibTDog said:


> I'm talking about their actual amplifier. I'm assuming the OP is talking about an amp, regardless of what preamp/FX processor/modeler anyone is using. Unless you mean these guys are playing direct into the soundboard with their preamps in live situations.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but when I watch rig rundown videos, everyone is sporting a tube amplifier. Regardless of if its a rental or for live only, its still a tube amp.



Who does a rig rundown with a rental?


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## VibTDog (Apr 15, 2021)

Metropolis said:


> ...Some bands just like to keep things old school and simple in that regard, and use tube amps, rental or their own.





budda said:


> Who does a rig rundown with a rental?



I'm responding to his statement, ask him lol


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## Choop (Apr 15, 2021)

VibTDog said:


> I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but when I watch rig rundown videos, everyone is sporting a tube amplifier. Regardless of if its a rental or for live only, its still a tube amp.



There have been a bunch of rig rundowns where people were using an Axe-FX or something similar either as the main rig or integrated into the setup somehow. I seem to remember some just running direct to FOH, but obviously there are some who run them into a power amp, sometimes it's a tube amp but also they may use a solid state one like the Matrix preamps for example.


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## SCJR (Apr 15, 2021)

Metropolis said:


> Not at all anymore. I can recall few succesful bands using modelers I've seen live in past few years for example. Meshuggah used Fractal, Devin Townsend flipped around using Kemper or Fractal, Amon Amarth probably Kemper too, Amorphis also Kemper... Wintersun using Axe FX Ultra even when Axe FX III were around. Jeff Loomis used most likely Helix with Arch Enemy. Some bands just like to keep things old school and simple in that regard, and use tube amps, rental or their own.





Choop said:


> There have been a bunch of rig rundowns where people were using an Axe-FX or something similar either as the main rig or integrated into the setup somehow. I seem to remember some just running direct to FOH, but obviously there are some who run them into a power amp, sometimes it's a tube amp but also they may use a solid state one like the Matrix preamps for example.



Those that come to mind are the usual suspects but I am sure there are others I'm missing. Two of the three guitarists in The Dear Hunter use Helix IIRC. Matt Heafy uses a Kemper, In AAL Tosin is back on tube amps supposedly and Javier still plays a Fractal, I think the dude from Intervals, Plini, Between the Buried and Me as well. Probably saw some of these on Gear Gods and not PG's Rig Rundown proper. Could probably go on forever in either the tube amp or digital direction with citing examples. First old school example that comes to mind is Neil Schon. Not sure if he still uses them.

Best sounding metal band live that I've ever seen is arguably Whitechapel. Not speaking about their music itself, just the mix. Three guitar players fighting with the kick and the bass player for sonic space and it sounded amazing. They were using Fractal units the last few times I saw them but back on the Mayhem tour I think in 2010 they were maybe the best sounding band there during the day and I'm sure they were running regular analog stuff. Born of Osiris is also a standout, not sure what they use.


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## couverdure (Apr 15, 2021)

The only amps I have are a Mooer preamp pedal + 30w mini power amp (basically a SS modeling amp combined) into a Laney 1x12 cab, and a Roland Micro Cube for anywhere outside of my room (or clean tones, which I actually prefer over the Mooer). Tube amps are expensive as hell here and I can't imagine lugging and cranking one up without noise complaints, and my Mooer + 1x12 can already go super loud, but I'm not against owning one at any point.

You work with what you have because at the end of the day I don't think it matters to any non-guitarist, and faults could happen to any gear regardless if it's analog or digital.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 15, 2021)

To be 100% fair, I love tube amps. I have quite a few of them, and good ones are capable of giving you the true feeling of "playing the amp" in tandem with the guitar in a variety of contexts, which is fantastic. Having said this, for the vast majority of practical applications they are quite troublesome in comparison with most "modern" (because I did gigs with modelling amps some 20 years ago already) takes on solutions for gigging / recording guitarists, both on the reliability and maintenance fronts, and let's not even touch the logistics behind taking those on the road - it's a tough cost to sell as a valid one overall, and quite frankly a luxury these days. 

It's extremely rare for me to use tube amps (and most certainly never my own) when doing gigs, as it's far simpler and more reliable to have a couple modellers serving as main / backup while allowing me to quickly set up, adjust to whatever acoustic quirks the venue will have, and not have to rely on rentals a) having properly maintained amps b) having serviceable cabs c) being able to read a rider and d) even being able and willing to provide the gear your requested (my deep seated hatred for the Marshall JCM 900 Dual Reverb comes from that bloody thing being provided a bazillion times no matter what I had on the rider) or taking a lot of kit on the road (the more you take with you, the more shit that can break, die on its own accord, commit ritual suicide).

On the recording front, though, that is where I see them being really cool - mixing and matching amps, cabs and mics is a fab way to get tonal variations happening and you can often get this visceral vibe when playing through them that will enhance your take or inspire you to use their little idiosyncrasies to enhance the track in ways you hadn't thought of. Are they indispensable? Not at all. Are they really cool to play through, explore and have as tools in your arsenal? Definitely.


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## budda (Apr 15, 2021)

VibTDog said:


> I'm responding to his statement, ask him lol



Im asking anyone who knows.


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## Metropolis (Apr 15, 2021)

VibTDog said:


> I'm talking about their actual amplifier. I'm assuming the OP is talking about an amp, regardless of what preamp/FX processor/modeler anyone is using. Unless you mean these guys are playing direct into the soundboard with their preamps in live situations.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but when I watch rig rundown videos, everyone is sporting a tube amplifier. Regardless of if its a rental or for live only, its still a tube amp.



I meant live situation, amp and cab modeling direct into front of house, monitoring with whatever they have, most likely in ears.


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## VibTDog (Apr 15, 2021)

Ok it seems like the bands and guitar players I pay attention to are mainly pushing stuff through tube amp heads in both live and recording situations.

I suppose I have some re-rigging to think of when my band goes on tour and I have 4 herniated discs in my spine LOL


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## efiltsohg (Apr 15, 2021)

budda said:


> Who does a rig rundown with a rental?



if they catch a band on european tour they often have a borrowed or rented backline e.g. Aaron Turner using Oranges instead of his usual VHT. I seem to recall seeing the same with Matt Pike at one point.


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## Werecow (Apr 16, 2021)

efiltsohg said:


> if they catch a band on european tour they often have a borrowed or rented backline e.g. Aaron Turner using Oranges instead of his usual VHT. I seem to recall seeing the same with Matt Pike at one point.


Matt Pike seems to just rent all the amps & 4x12s in a 100 mile radius, builds a house out of them, and then that's his rig.


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## Logan Munoz (Apr 16, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Very cool. For me, I am a big fan of Misha, but his aggressive salesman behavior really puts me off. I don't think he's dishonest but with marketing this aggressive it's feels like the products are more hype than anything. I would rather just buy a normal 6505, which should be a safer bet, it's also cheaper and many professionals use it in recording.
> 
> I would also love to buy a VOX AC30 combo if I could, with a compressor in front, it's the perfect mix of gain and clean that I use for practicing. And it would be sick for recording bright cleans too. But it wouldn't cover the high gain territory which is a big deal for me. Being realistic the PRS MT-15 sounds good for me, I am a big fan of Mark Tremonti as well. I wish it had a attenuated output to use with an interface, or a USB.


The invective is all hype to be honest.. Just my ears though, not my cup of tea when it comes to tone


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 27, 2021)

Thank you guys for the feedback on the song I shared a few pages back. Honestly this thread has made me start to think of full amp setups as a scam by today's standards. The price of a full amp setup with recording gear for it is about 10 times the cost of my POD HD500, and takes up a massive amount of space. As modeling technology advances, I predict it will become harder and harder to tell the difference between a full amp setup and a modeler setup, and it will become progressively less expensive too. And if it matters at all, I get no latency from the POD, I only get 3 milliseconds of it from not having an audio interface and instead using a 1/4 inch to USB cable. :-D


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## michael_bolton (Apr 27, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> ... As modeling technology advances, I predict it will become harder and harder to tell the difference between a full amp setup and a modeler setup, and it will become progressively less expensive too....



Tech getting better - for sure. Price-wise - maybe, but to a lesser extent than you'd expect. You'll be getting more for your money but it won't necessarily be cheaper - kind of how things work with computers and smart phones. Which to me that's the biggest downside of the modelers compared to "real" gear - not dirt cheap to get into but 10 years from now today's modelers won't be worth shit as opposed to a "real" amp.


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## budda (Apr 27, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> Tech getting better - for sure. Price-wise - maybe, but to a lesser extent than you'd expect. You'll be getting more for your money but it won't necessarily be cheaper - kind of how things work with computers and smart phones. Which to me that's the biggest downside of the modelers compared to "real" gear - not dirt cheap to get into but 10 years from now today's modelers won't be worth shit as opposed to a "real" amp.



Uh you priced out amps lately?

Sells new for $2800, scoop one for $1200.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 27, 2021)

That's an interesting thought! Modellers are always getting better at imitating tube amps, so a modeller you bought today might be worthless in 10-15 years. But a tube amp will always sound like a tube amp. You wouldn't want a modeller from 1990-2000s right? But how about a 1990-2000s Dual Rectifier or a OG 5150? There some old amps like that, that are very rare and sought after by gear nerds, super expensive too. But can you see that happening with a modeller? Assuming you have the money, why would you buy an Axe-FX Standard when there is an Axe-FX III Mk2? Or why would you buy a Digitech RP500 when there is the Helix?

Btw I think there's tube amp sounds that you can't really get with a modeller yet, the most obvious example is the highs on a high gain tone, tube amps are a lot better at it, you can make them very prominent and clear and it will sound good but with a modeller if you crank the highs it will sound unpleasant. The capture method is so different too. A tube amp recorded with a mic or two and a preamp has a lot more dynamics going on than a modelled amp into an IR, which is like a static EQ profile right?


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## michael_bolton (Apr 27, 2021)

budda said:


> Uh you priced out amps lately?
> 
> Sells new for $2800, scoop one for $1200.



diff amps have diff price dynamics. my 5150 combo I paid $600 for 15 years ago is worth that all day any day (and was before the 5150 craze of late). engl ironball - paid 1k few years back, don't think I'd have a problem selling it for $700 or so. 15 year old modelers? dunno, maaaaybe a case of Natty Ice or a 15 year old laptop  

without even knowing what amp you're referring to specifically - in 10-15 years it'll be worth more compared to its all digital counterparts in this price range.


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## budda (Apr 27, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> diff amps have diff price dynamics. my 5150 combo I paid $600 for 15 years ago is worth that all day any day (and was before the 5150 craze of late). engl ironball - paid 1k few years back, don't think I'd have a problem selling it for $700 or so. 15 year old modelers? dunno, maaaaybe a case of Natty Ice or a 15 year old laptop
> 
> without even knowing what amp you're referring to specifically - in 10-15 years it'll be worth more compared to its all digital counterparts in this price range.



That 5150 wasnt $600 new either, was it?
What's a digitech GSP2101 go for now? Does it sound worse?

What does old eventide rack gear go for?

The second someome makes something iconic, we get to skip this conversation entirely.

Amps and modellers both drop in value over time, being buoyed by inflation every 10 or so years.

Remember when JCM800s werent cool, and thus were super cheap? They didnt sound any different either.

Fwiw i was quoting the price of a dual rec in Canada.


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 27, 2021)

Honestly I feel like guitar tone gear shouldn't be valued by what it's price is in 10-15 years. It should be valued solely by it's sound if you're not just buying them to sell them. That's why I feel no shame whatsoever in using a modeler.

Just my opinion


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## michael_bolton (Apr 27, 2021)

budda said:


> ...
> Amps and modellers both drop in value over time...



sure, just not at the same rate. Hypothetically speaking if someone gave me $2k to "invest" into either a modeler or a tube amp - strictly to sell 15 years from now - I will not be buying a modeler. 

One of my next purchases will most likely be a QC but I'll be doing it knowing full well the depreciation implications - that engl of mine is worth less than half of a QC rn, in 10 years - not so much.


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## budda (Apr 27, 2021)

The axe fx II has depreciated less than the dual recto but


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## thebeesknees22 (Apr 27, 2021)

Who buy's gear for investments? There are better ways to get more return on your money lol


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## Demiurge (Apr 27, 2021)

thebeesknees22 said:


> Who buy's gear for investments? There are better ways to get more return on your money lol



There does seem to be a level of gear-whoring that needs that consideration lest one go broke.


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 27, 2021)

thebeesknees22 said:


> Who buy's gear for investments? There are better ways to get more return on your money lol


INFINITY IQ


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## nickgray (Apr 27, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> but 10 years from now today's modelers won't be worth shit as opposed to a "real" amp



So don't wait 10 years to sell one if you're meaning to? That's the moral of the story here, right?



michael_bolton said:


> as opposed to a "real" amp



Well, a modeler is also a very competent multi effects unit. So you should compare a modeler to an amp (preferably a badass 4 channel one with tons of versatility), a whole pedalboard worth of effects, and one of those smart programmable MIDI switchers so that everything is controlled through it. I paid $1100 for a Helix LT, so let's say $110/year for 10 years, or $9.16 a month. You though, well, you paid for the amp, for the loadbox, for a stereo IR loader (did I mention that I use stereo IRs and play headphones 99% of the time?), a whole bunch of fancy pedals (Helix has some really fancy effects, mind you), and that MIDI switcher. That's an ungodly amount of money. Let's say it's $5500. I can buy 5 modelers and then throw each one away every 10 years, for 50 years in total. But hey, you'll be able to sell your amp for maybe half or even 2/3 of the price in 10 years. You'll have to get a new one though


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## thebeesknees22 (Apr 27, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> INFINITY IQ


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 27, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> 15 year old modelers? dunno, maaaaybe a case of Natty Ice or a 15 year old laptop



Kempers are turning 10 next year, and price hasn't really fluctuated much on the older units if they're in great shape. Even old AxeUltras are holding over $500, and they're coming up on 15 years old. Then some of the Vetta stuff is holding price pretty well too, considering they're almost old enough to drink. 

I think we're inching towards digital stuff retaining value as the tech gets better and software is updated more which extends product life significantly.


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## Lopp (Apr 27, 2021)

I agree with others who state to buy based on your needs, not based on resale.



michael_bolton said:


> sure, just not at the same rate. Hypothetically speaking if someone gave me $2k to "invest" into either a modeler or a tube amp - strictly to sell 15 years from now - I will not be buying a modeler.
> 
> One of my next purchases will most likely be a QC but I'll be doing it knowing full well the depreciation implications - that engl of mine is worth less than half of a QC rn, in 10 years - not so much.



On a whim, I checked two purchases of mine from almost 15 years ago.

Axe-Fx Standard
New (February, 2008): $1749.95
Current eBay/Reverb price: about $600

Mesa/Boogie Mark IV
Used (late '00's): about $1200
Current eBay/Reverb price: about $2200

I'm keeping the Axe-Fx Standard. They were still hand-built by Cliff at the time. Someday it will be worth a fortune and I'll be rich... Vintage Digital!


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## Wuuthrad (Apr 28, 2021)

I saw Metallica live on the And Justice For All Tour. Sound quality was shit, but the show was fun as hell (could still “smoke” indoors back then!) 

Saw them live again a few years ago, the “Nostalgia” show shall we say... lol...Sound quality was tops, and no guitar cables in sight! But was it as fun? Not really...

Does Kill Em All even sound good anymore? Or Early Slayer? Great music sure, although not really hi def is it? It is a cool tone, I kinda love it! Definitely old school.

But hey knock yourself out- tubes, solid state, digital, its all good!

I will say that the Marshall sound of Power Amp Tube distortion is not my cuppa, when you have to turn up to tinnitus levels for good tone- who wants that? And spend more than the price of a good amp to attenuate all that power? Smh...lol “Move Air?” Go for a jog, get some exercise, nobody will even hear your fart noises (hopefully)

I always preferred Laney pre-amp distortion, but tubes can be saggy as hell, kind of sloppy- I often prefer solid state amps for high gain.

One of the best tones, and loudest sounds I’ve gotten from Electric was a headphone amp plugged direct into a 5KW Power Amp with dual 15 PA speakers.

But a 100W Tube Amp 4x12 is awesome for what it is! A piece of history! A chest thumping macho big boy contest! A quick way to annoy your family, neighbors and have the cops called! lol 

Seriously Tube Amps as a category are a great sound, albeit somewhat limited tonally when compared to Digital. Low Watt Combos are a great way to get good tube sound, I’d say it’s definitely worth trying out for any guitarist who hasn’t, but its not going to make that much difference, especially if you're already happy with your sound.

There’s a certain harmonic distortion that is changing and somewhat unpredictable with a saturated Tube, which is part of the charm. It can also be kind of annoying!

But hey thats part of the fun after all- chasing the almighty tone dragon!


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

budda said:


> The axe fx II has depreciated less than the dual recto but


One has been depreciating over 30 years, while the other has been depreciating for only 10. Have another look in 20 years time


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## budda (Apr 28, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> One has been depreciating over 30 years, while the other has been depreciating for only 10. Have another look in 20 years time



No im talking two units bought in 2014 will have depreciated differently, but continue.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

budda said:


> No im talking two units bought in 2014 will have depreciated differently, but continue.


But the Mesa is 30 year old technology and the Axe FX II is 10 year old technology. As time goes on, the Mesa will continue to be desirable to someone who wants a valve amp, while the Axe FX II will be so out of date that no one would want it.

It's like comparing the resale value of a Fender / Gibson guitar with the latest smart phone. The guitar will take a significant drop in value as soon as it becomes preowned, but will then hold a fairly stable resale value long-term. The preowned smart phone could potentially be resold for closer to full price in the short-term, but at a certain point becomes completely worthless and undesirable. A five year old iPhone is currently worth something on the used market, but in another 5 years it will be considered complete junk.

For the record, I bought a used Marshall JCM 900 for £300 about 10 years ago. The current average sale price on eBay for the same model is £450-500.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

Folks keep using Mesa as an example, which is one of the few brands that never tends to really falter too much in value. Same with boutique brands and flagship products from top tier mainstream manufacturers.

But what about Crate? Bugera? Kustom? Carvin? Dozens of other brands that never held value. 

The cell phone and laptop examples are flawed as the networks and software to run those either gets shut down or loses driver support. That's not the case with old modelers.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks keep using Mesa as an example, which is one of the few brands that never tends to really falter too much in value. Same with boutique brands and flagship products from top tier mainstream manufacturers.
> 
> But what about Crate? Bugera? Kustom? Carvin? Dozens of other brands that never held value.
> 
> The cell phone and laptop examples are flawed as the networks and software to run those either gets shut down or loses driver support. That's not the case with old modelers.


Far from perfect examples, but modellers can eventually lose technical support / updates / drivers for the latest OS etc.

You're right that not all amps hold their value well, but I think it's fair to compare the most renowned amp brands to the most renowned modeller brand.

Despite my negative comments about resale value, I am considering a modeller or Kemper for my next purchase (upgrade on my Peavey Vypyr and superior tone at low volumes compared to my Marshall valve amp).


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## budda (Apr 28, 2021)

Whenever someone says old modellers will become undesirable, I just think about the 80s rack gear that people are still interested in.

I guess it's not cool that it could be cool later.


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## Musiscience (Apr 28, 2021)

Also, I know this argument has been used too many times before, but if I can't tell the difference with tubes now, why would that change at a later point?

And if I am satisfied with my own sound, why would I care if a purist on a YouTube video can tell there is a slight difference in some overtones and harmonics v.s. a Plexi with NOS tubes bought from a garage sale in Siberia of a retired soldier in 1973.


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## nickgray (Apr 28, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Far from perfect examples, but modellers can eventually lose technical support / updates / drivers for the latest OS etc.



The vast majority are made for standalone operation.



Neon_Knight_ said:


> You're right that not all amps hold their value well, but I think it's fair to compare the most renowned amp brands to the most renowned modeller brand.



There's also maintenance. What's the recommended time for recap? 10 years I think? That's what, $200-300? Plus let's say 2 tube changes, I think 4 6L6s will cost you around a $100, so that's $400-500 over 10 years in total. Don't forget to add inflation and the rising cost of living into account when comparing resale prices over a long period of time.

Also, FM3 and Helix Stomp are a thing, if we're talking about high end modelers. $1k and $600 respectively. You don't have to spend $2k on an Axe 3. And as always, modelers are also often very competent and versatile multi effect units, which is something people conveniently forget about in these discussions.



Neon_Knight_ said:


> For the record, I bought a used Marshall JCM 900 for £300 about 10 years ago. The current average sale price on eBay for the same model is £450-500.



https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

£300 10 years ago is £393.38 today according to the Bank of England, inflation wise. Cost of living + Brexit should deprecate the value further. Add the maintenance costs and how close are we to that £450-500 figure now?


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

nickgray said:


> There's also maintenance. What's the recommended time for recap? 10 years I think? That's what, $200-300? Plus let's say 2 tube changes, I think 4 6L6s will cost you around a $100, so that's $400-500 over 10 years in total. Don't forget to add inflation and the rising cost of living into account when comparing resale prices over a long period of time.


I paid £120 for a part-time self-employed amp enthusiast to service the amp, so my total spend has been £420. That service included a set of 4x JJ EL34, biasing, recap, cleaning of all the pots etc. and replacement of about 3 pots. Obviously I got a bargain there - the guy probably got more enjoyment from testing out the amp at the end than from the tiny amount of profit he made.



nickgray said:


> Don't forget to add inflation and the rising cost of living into account when comparing resale prices over a long period of time.
> https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator
> 
> £300 10 years ago is £393.38 today according to the Bank of England, inflation wise. Cost of living + Brexit should deprecate the value further. Add the maintenance costs and how close are we to that £450-500 figure now?


Inflation applies equally to amps and modellers, so is probably of little relevance to the discussion.
If I'd put that £420 into a savings account (and spent time moving it around to maintain a half-decent interest rate), instead of buying the amp, I'd probably have £450-500 today (i.e. what I could sell the amp for).
That £420 in today's money is £523.48, so I would technically be making a loss - but I would also have made a bigger loss by leaving the money in a savings account, or by spending it on the majority of other things.

Off topic, but I have recently noticed a significant increase (well above UK inflation) in both the new and used price of Ibanez guitars though. A couple I bought used 8-10 years ago (for the going rate at the time) could now be resold for double what I paid. 10-15 year old RG prestiges tend to go for close to their original RRP in today's used market, so the loss is only whatever inflation works out at - whereas you may have been looking at a 50% loss before inflation in the past.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks keep using Mesa as an example, which is one of the few brands that never tends to really falter too much in value. Same with boutique brands and flagship products from top tier mainstream manufacturers.
> 
> But what about Crate? Bugera? Kustom? Carvin? Dozens of other brands that never held value.
> 
> The cell phone and laptop examples are flawed as the networks and software to run those either gets shut down or loses driver support. That's not the case with old modelers.


Yeah Mesas and VHT/Fryettes are great amps to hang onto, especially if you buy used. My mk3 and F30 are both worth more than what I paid for them. Same with my 100CL. 

Kempers are the only digital example I can think of that retains its value if you buy used. I still see used units going for over 1500 usd now, which is about what I sold mine for like 4 years ago.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Yeah Mesas and VHT/Fryettes are great amps to hang onto, especially if you buy used. My mk3 and F30 are both worth more than what I paid for them. Same with my 100CL.
> 
> Kempers are the only digital example I can think of that retains its value if you buy used. I still see used units going for over 1500 usd now, which is about what* I sold mine* for like 4 years ago.


Weren't a fan of the Kemper then?


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks keep using Mesa as an example, which is one of the few brands that never tends to really falter too much in value. Same with boutique brands and flagship products from top tier mainstream manufacturers.
> 
> But what about Crate? Bugera? Kustom? Carvin? Dozens of other brands that never held value.
> 
> The cell phone and laptop examples are flawed as the networks and software to run those either gets shut down or loses driver support. That's not the case with old modelers.



16 years ago my buddy and I got Peavey XXL and XXX heads, he spent around a grand on the XXX and I spent $500 on the XXL. He can’t get $400 for the XXX and while I’m not selling the XXL, I’ve seen them sit on CL for weeeks at $150.


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## michael_bolton (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kempers ...
> ...The cell phone and laptop examples are flawed ...



Kempers are somewhat unique in that they haven't really had direct competition so the hardware update velocity for now is non existent which HW updates is what kills old tech. When it does kick in (maybe with QC or something else) and they are forced to come out with a revamped version the original version will go down in price. Maybe they captured enough of the profiler market to stay relevant without major upgrades in the foreseeable future - we'll see. 

Laptop/phone analogy is not 100% apples-to-apples just like any other analogy - mostly because HW update velocity is much higher there. That said - I'm happily running Ubuntu on a laptop I paid $400 or so ~10 years ago mostly as a shell I use to ssh from into my personal cloud instances. It's perfectly functional but is not worth much. Eventually after a few iterations the same thing will happen to pretty much anything that is "all digital". "Real" gear is much less prone to this.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 28, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Weren't a fan of the Kemper then?


I just prefer the tweakability of real amps tbh.
Kemper is very good if you don't mess with profile eq/gain settings at all. The eq and gain is very destructive.
I sold the kemper to get my mesa mk3 and I don't regret it at all.


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## budda (Apr 28, 2021)

Kemper doesnt have direct competiton?


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I just prefer the tweakability of real amps tbh.
> Kemper is very good if you don't mess with profile eq/gain settings at all. The eq and gain is very destructive.
> I sold the kemper to get my mesa mk3 and I don't regret it at all.


So you need a profile of the exact tone you want and can't tweak someone else's profile without ruining it?

My problem is that I can't crank a valve amp and don't have space for the variety I would want (Marshall JCM + Peavey 5150/6505 + Mesa + Orange, each with a different cabinet, would be ideal haha!).


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## michael_bolton (Apr 28, 2021)

budda said:


> Kemper doesnt have direct competiton?



that's right. they basically own the profiling market for the time being.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 28, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> So you need a profile of the exact tone you want and can't tweak someone else's profile without ruining it?
> 
> My problem is that I can't crank a valve amp and don't have space for the variety I would want (Marshall JCM + Peavey 5150/6505 + Mesa + Orange, each with a different cabinet, would be ideal haha!).


You can tweak profiles a little bit before stuff sounds wonky. The eq/gain for profiles is a generic curve, so they don't really interact or sound like how the amps sound irl. Provided you profile your amp with the cab you want and don't try to tweak stuff after profiling, it's a great system. It just doesn't hold up when you start messing with other profiled cabs or tweaking stuff too much. Not to mention the issue with DI profiles and how the inherent profiled cab sound will always eke through. 

The system is long in the tooth at this point and there's enough free profiles out there that you can realistically find almost any combo of amp/cab. No guarantees they'll be a good profile though.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> So you need a profile of the exact tone you want and can't tweak someone else's profile without ruining it?



Sort of, yeah. Luckily there are thousands of profiles out there already, so you'll likely find one that you're 99% happy with.

But, tweaking isn't really ideal. You can make some slight adjustments but it's not like a modeled amp.

The Kempers a weird thing. I'm always on the fence about selling mine until I find another profile that's fun as Hell.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sort of, yeah. Luckily there are thousands of profiles out there already, so you'll likely find one that you're 99% happy with.
> 
> But, tweaking isn't really ideal. You can make some slight adjustments but it's not like a modeled amp.
> 
> The Kempers a weird thing. I'm always on the fence about selling mine until I find another profile that's fun as Hell.


When it comes to tone, "99% happy" means "unhappy and must tweak / buy new gear" though right? 

I guess I need to do some research on what profiles are available before pulling the trigger then. A modeller could be a better option...but I don't want my rig to be too PC-based.


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## budda (Apr 28, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> that's right. they basically own the profiling market for the time being.



I would definitely call the axe fx and helix direct competition but ymmv i guess. Generally if someone isnt buying a kemper and they want a digital solution, they are buying one of the other two. Just like in your post quoting max


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> When it comes to tone, "99% happy" means "unhappy and must tweak / buy new gear" though right?
> 
> I guess I need to do some research on what profiles are available before pulling the trigger then. A modeller could be a better option...but I don't want my rig to be too PC-based.



If you're the type of person that has to tweak absolutely everything, you're probably not going to be as happy with a Kemper vs. a modeler. Unless of course you're absolutely in love with your current rig and just want to profile that, which is what a lot of pros do, profile thier studio rigs and tour with Kempers. 

There are probably as many shitty profiles as good ones at this point, so keep that in mind.



budda said:


> I would definitely call the axe fx and helix direct competition but ymmv i guess. Generally if someone isnt buying a kemper and they want a digital solution, they are buying one of the other two. Just like in your post quoting max



Have you played a Kemper? Other than the ones and zeros, it's nothing at all like an AxeFx/Helix style modeler. Different feel, different work flow, different available tones, etc.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 28, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I just prefer the tweakability of real amps tbh.
> Kemper is very good if you don't mess with profile eq/gain settings at all. The eq and gain is very destructive.
> I sold the kemper to get my mesa mk3 and I don't regret it at all.



Yikes! I didn't know that... I'm glad I never dropped a lot of money on an Axe-FX or Kemper tbh. I wonder how long until they release the full desktop version of the software.


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## michael_bolton (Apr 28, 2021)

budda said:


> I would definitely call the axe fx and helix direct competition ...



there's no profiler tech competing with kemper rn which means they are not forced to upgrade to stay relevant which would drive depreciation of older versions. 

is there "competition" generally speaking? sure. "axe fx vs kemper" is a thing but it's not something that is likely to force kemper to e.g. beef up their learning models which would require more processing power etc etc because they are not competing with another profiler tech.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 28, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Yikes! I didn't know that... I'm glad I never dropped a lot of money on an Axe-FX or Kemper tbh. I wonder how long until they release the full desktop version of the software.


At the rate they're going with kemper stuff, not any time soon. It took them like 5 years to release a basic desktop editor for loading new profiles/renaming them/etc. Prior to that you had to do it via a usb cable or flash drive. Not a huge deal but it was annoying considering every other digital option had better UIs at that point.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Yikes! I didn't know that... I'm glad I never dropped a lot of money on an Axe-FX or Kemper tbh. I wonder how long until they release the full desktop version of the software.



According to Cliff, never. He's way too concerned about folks pirating it, and even more so, folks stealing it. 

The Kemper team is the same way. Arguably even more stuck in thier ways. 

Ever since Helix Native folks ask pretty much weekly when a Fractal or Kemper VST is on the way, and they both shut it down pretty quickly.


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## DaZoner (Apr 28, 2021)

My experience with modellers has been line 6 stuff and all the latest cool plugins. The thing I've found is that even though the modeller or plugins get you 95% there, it's the last 5% that has all the mojo. Mind you, I do believe modelling is the future as much as I love tube amps.

Also, am I the only one that finds that when playing through a modeller/plugin that the feel is just not the same.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> there's no profiler tech competing with kemper rn which means they are not forced to upgrade to stay relevant which would drive depreciation of older versions.
> 
> is there "competition" generally speaking? sure. "axe fx vs kemper" is a thing but it's not something that is likely to force kemper to e.g. beef up their learning models which would require more processing power etc etc because they are not competing with another profiler tech.



I wouldn't say there's nothing out there. The AxeFx has had profiling abilities for years now, and that's the primary draw of the new QC. 

There's just not another flagship "profile only" unit...yet.


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## michael_bolton (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wouldn't say there's nothing out there. The AxeFx has had profiling abilities for years now, and that's the primary draw of the new QC.
> 
> There's just not another flagship "profile only" unit...yet.



yup. that's the main reason I'm considering the QC. too early to tell if it can hang or not (I'm hoping it can lol). so yea if it can successfully compete in the profiling space with Kemper there's a pretty good chance Kemper will have some upgraydding to do which will most likely start putting downward pressure on the prices of the OG Kemper just like any other iteration of tech does to it's predecessors. we shall see.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you're the type of person that has to tweak absolutely everything, you're probably not going to be as happy with a Kemper vs. a modeler. Unless of course you're absolutely in love with your current rig and just want to profile that, which is what a lot of pros do, profile thier studio rigs and tour with Kempers.
> 
> There are probably as many shitty profiles as good ones at this point, so keep that in mind.
> 
> ...


I was joking - I'm not like that, but I'm pretty sure plenty of people on this forum (or any guitar forum) are.

One thing I love about my Peavey Vypyr (which definitely does not achieve 100% perfect tone), is that I can save a variety of settings for very different tones and then switch between them at the press of a button - allowing me to get straight to playing without tweaking (for the most part).


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## budda (Apr 28, 2021)

DaZoner said:


> My experience with modellers has been line 6 stuff and all the latest cool plugins. The thing I've found is that even though the modeller or plugins get you 95% there, it's the last 5% that has all the mojo. Mind you, I do believe modelling is the future as much as I love tube amps.
> 
> Also, am I the only one that finds that when playing through a modeller/plugin that the feel is just not the same.



I play through an axe fx iii with headphones 99% of the time, and at no point in the last year and a bit have I gone "shit, this doesn't feel like my old tube rig at all". I have just as much fun wailing away with reverb-drenched feedback with headphones on as a I did on a good band day at 125dB.



michael_bolton said:


> yup. that's the main reason I'm considering the QC. too early to tell if it can hang or not (I'm hoping it can lol). so yea if it can successfully compete in the profiling space with Kemper there's a pretty good chance Kemper will have some upgraydding to do which will most likely start putting downward pressure on the prices of the OG Kemper just like any other iteration of tech does to it's predecessors. we shall see.



I mean, you could grab a used axe III and not have to worry about whether or not the profiling holds up, along with the other pros of the unit .


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## DaZoner (Apr 28, 2021)

budda said:


> I play through an axe fx iii with headphones 99% of the time, and at no point in the last year and a bit have I gone "shit, this doesn't feel like my old tube rig at all". I have just as much fun wailing away with reverb-drenched feedback with headphones on as a I did on a good band day at 125dB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DaZoner (Apr 28, 2021)

I guess I going to have to try an Axe fx. Do you find that an FM3 would be good enough, or is it better off going with the Axefx3? I guess what I'm trying to ask is... does the Axefx3 sound far superior to the FM3(assuming you've tried one)?


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 28, 2021)

Skip the Axe FX and go with a Line 6 Helix or POD HD500X is my suggestion. So much easier to work with, and has incredible tones.


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## DaZoner (Apr 28, 2021)

I had an HD500X. Sorta meh on it. I did all the eq tricks and still preferred an amp, even when I put it through a tube power section.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 28, 2021)

Personally after my experience with modelers (and having never played a tube amp) I'd skip the AxeFXs, Helixes and Kemper altogether. My dream rig would be a tube amp (or two) with a 4x12 and a Two Notes Torpedo Live and RME Interface. Some mics like the 57, R121, SH 421..

I mean you can get really good results with the modellers but if you really (really) want top notch guitar tone..


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## nightflameauto (Apr 28, 2021)

DaZoner said:


> I had an HD500X. Sorta meh on it. I did all the eq tricks and still preferred an amp, even when I put it through a tube power section.


Having played with a 500X a few times, and currently having a Helix, I can say it's a MASSIVE step up from the 500X. On its own it's . . . pretty good. In 4CM with my DSL it's good. Not perfect if using the modeled preamps and the DSL as power, but at volume you really don't have that overwhelming meh that you'd get with the older PODs. I can switch the Helix out of the loop and swap back and forth and there's just the tiniest bit of EQ tweak happening with the Helix with no effects going on, easily compensated for with a para-EQ.

Is it still different from straight tube amp? Honestly, yeah. But it's about as close to "real life" as I've experienced in a modeler.


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## michael_bolton (Apr 28, 2021)

budda said:


> I mean, you could grab a used axe III and not have to worry about whether or not the profiling holds up, along with the other pros of the unit



I'm in no extreme rush - pretty happy with my "real" gear setup and a DAW-based setup. Been contemplating a modeler+pedalboard power amp type setup for various reasons. AxeFx is in the running along with the Helix but I hate the learning curve/tinkering esp since I'm not unhappy with what I have rn so I'll see what the verdict is on the QC once the dust settles and go from there.


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## budda (Apr 28, 2021)

DaZoner said:


> I guess I going to have to try an Axe fx. Do you find that an FM3 would be good enough, or is it better off going with the Axefx3? I guess what I'm trying to ask is... does the Axefx3 sound far superior to the FM3(assuming you've tried one)?



They sound the same when running the same firmware.

@michael_bolton not much of a learning curve to get started. Drop in blocks, connect them, choose type within block and go. Read the manual, watch a leon todd video and go. Fire up axe edit and it'll sound great in minutes. If you can operate a daw you can build an axe fx preset.


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## Lopp (Apr 28, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Yikes! I didn't know that... I'm glad I never dropped a lot of money on an Axe-FX or Kemper tbh. I wonder how long until they release the full desktop version of the software.





MaxOfMetal said:


> According to Cliff, never. He's way too concerned about folks pirating it, and even more so, folks stealing it.
> 
> The Kemper team is the same way. Arguably even more stuck in thier ways.
> 
> Ever since Helix Native folks ask pretty much weekly when a Fractal or Kemper VST is on the way, and they both shut it down pretty quickly.



Pirating the software and decoding the tech is one reason the Axe-Fx is not on a desktop/PC.

Another big reason is the technology would likely suffer. The Axe-Fx units use dedicated DSPs. A PC processor is not optimized for a specific purpose like the DSPs are. At least that is my perspective from having used SPICE for modeling decades ago. You had to sit and wait quite a while just to process one waveform through a simple circuit to get the resulting plot. Yes, processors are more powerful, but they cannot compete with a dedicated DSP. So impressed we now have modeling on the fly for guitar amps.



MaxOfMetal said:


> I wouldn't say there's nothing out there. The AxeFx has had profiling abilities for years now, and that's the primary draw of the new QC.
> 
> There's just not another flagship "profile only" unit...yet.



The Axe-Fx does not have profiling. It has tone matching, but that is not at the level of profiling. Tone matching is more about matching the EQ of a particular amp and cabinet than profiling the reaction of all the circuitry. Apparently Cliff has something up his sleeve for profiling, but is waiting on trying to patent it.



DaZoner said:


> I guess I going to have to try an Axe fx. Do you find that an FM3 would be good enough, or is it better off going with the Axefx3? I guess what I'm trying to ask is... does the Axefx3 sound far superior to the FM3(assuming you've tried one)?





budda said:


> They sound the same when running the same firmware.



The Axe-Fx III has the Cygnus firmware or will have it soon. Cygnus will not be available as soon for the FM3, but it is coming. Otherwise, when they are running the same firmware, they should sound comparable.

Also, the Axe-Fx III has a few other useful features. For example, it allows more than one amp block if you want to run dual amps, which is not available on the FM3. Tone matching is also not available on the FM3.


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

An fm3 and axe fx 3 running fw 15.01 with the same settings will sound the same.


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## død (Apr 29, 2021)

I’ve tried both ways, sold of my Uberschall + Rivera 412 for a Kemper back in 2014, I remember being completely convinced my bad tone and shitty monitor feed days would be over. 

And then I tried bringing that setup to a house show where the entire band shared two wedges and the PA/FOH was a combo of soviet-era analog mixers and a Peavey bass cab from the 70’s. 

After buying a Mesa Fifty/Fifty and a Zilla 2x12, things started sounding a lot better, but at that point, my rig was as heavy as a regular amp + cab setup, with the added disadvantage of being two units rather than one, and the FX in the Kemper, especially the ODs and fuzzes, aren’t all that great, either. 

Ultimately, I traded the Kemper and Mesa for a HX Stomp and enough cash to pick up a used Diezel Einstein. Took me about an hour to set up some patches from my ES-8 and pedalboard, and sounds a LOT better than my Kemper rig ever did. The Stomp sounds great for doing quick demos into a laptop, but I vastly prefer an amp + cab rig for anything but playing at home.


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> For me, metal guitar tone peaked in the early 2000s, and while I can get good sounds from my modeller and plugins, I don't think I can get the sound like these "not so old" records. The tone on The End of Heartache by KSE for example is really fucking hot.
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing this to newer bands with a more "modern" sound with not as much highs and more mids (and less bass), I like this a lot more.




Fucking this.



budda said:


> Gonna want an assortment of cabs.



Or an Ampete switcher.


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

Now grab a pro audio live recording of a song off that album for comparison.


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

budda said:


> Now grab a pro audio live recording of a song off that album for comparison.


What for?


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> What for?



The comparison between the double/quad track tone that sounds awesome on tape and how it actually sounds.


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

budda said:


> The comparison between the double/quad track tone that sounds awesome on tape and how it actually sounds.



Ehhmm... So? New modern metal records are also quad tracked and sound like shit to me so what's your point?


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> Ehhmm... So? New modern metal records are also quad tracked and sound like shit to me so what's your point?



 just that not even the guy who wrote the music and does production probably pulled off the same tone live, which would seem to be the goal of any setup.

The tone does hold up. And a 5150 (or sim) with emg's and a ts808 should ballpark it.

While Im thinking of it, did the isolated guitar stems ever get put out?


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

budda said:


> just that not even the guy who wrote the music and does production probably pulled off the same tone live, which would seem to be the goal of any setup.
> 
> The tone does hold up. And a 5150 (or sim) with emg's and a ts808 should ballpark it.
> 
> While Im thinking of it, did the isolated guitar stems ever get put out?



KsE used EMG 85 -> TS -> Rectos/Cobras back then.

It's been a long time since I checked multitracks, but I know All That Remains "The Fall Of Ideals" had some songs around due to Guitar Hero. I fucking love that album and the guitar tones are super midrangey but not clanky. If you listen to those stems, they sound great even solo-ed. That album was also quite high in tuning, I think drop D at most.

Studio Vs. Live tones is a different subject, but man early 00's metal albums just sound insane cranked. Now everything sounds the same with the drum samples and the duck-into-talkbox guitars shit.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 29, 2021)

I don't know, obviously it's not the same but it's really really close



I don't think there's isolated stems, but you can put it in a DAW and mute the middle. But then it's not really the raw tone, it has the mix bus processing and still not full because not all 4 guitars would be hard panned left or right..


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## Choop (Apr 29, 2021)

Emperoff said:


> It's been a long time since I checked multitracks, but I know All That Remains "The Fall Of Ideals" had some songs around due to Guitar Hero. I fucking love that album and the guitar tones are super midrangey but not clanky. If you listen to those stems, they sound great even solo-ed. That album was also quite high in tuning, I think drop D at most.



That All That Remains album was D standard afaik, and I'm pretty sure they were using EMGs with 5150 amps. Sounds great! This is just an anecdote, but I saw them live years ago with Trivium when Shogun had either just come out or was about to, and I remember ATR having a good & strong live sound.


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

I remember the kick from that ATR making it unlistenable in our family cars, so I only listened to it a couple times .


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

Back to the original thread, it's amusing how the "Tube amps Vs. modellers" debate comes up every once in a while.

Despite @budda 's holy crusade to convert everyone to Digitalism, tube amps won't dissappear anytime soon. In fact, they don't show any signs of it. People have been saying that digital would take over for like... 20 years? Yet here we are. At this point, both techs are developing in parallel which is awesome because that means everyone can choose whatever they want.

When I started playing, tube amps were very expensive. My first amp was a Behringer modelling amp. It blew within months, so I bougth a Line6 Spider II (  ). Then my super crappy band blew too (well, it always did lol), so I took the Spider II home. My family and neighbours didn't like that at all.

At that point I was taking guitar lessons and my teacher had a Line6 GuitarPort through some Hi-Fi speakers, which sounded amazing at low volumes. So I purchased one as well and discovered the convenience of the amp sims for home playing (which I still enjoy).

But then, I joined another band. And I will never forget the first time I plugged into his Marshall rig. My mind just exploded. So I sold a guitar and bought the cheapest tube amp I could find used (a Laney VH100R) and shared it with another bandmate, who bought the cab. That amp hit the road quite a lot, and it sounded amazing boosted. I always got compliments about my tone.

But at some point I started touring more seriously, and hauling the amp and cab day in-day out became a chore. I also needed roadcases for both head and cab (I wanted to had it loaded into the backline truck), so I had to part ways with it for a more convenient solution. A combo amp with its own roadcase, that gets loaded into the truck and unloaded on the stage every night. It gets digitally controlled with a Boss GT-100 that also has direct to FOH presets saved in case of amp failure. So far, so good.

But what about my other band, with way less "comforts"? Since I have to carry everything, I just run my pedalboard rig into the FX Loop of whatever amp I feel suits the place better (or the one already in the venue), and that's it. No way I'm carrying a halfstack around for a few bucks.

TL;DR Each thing has its place. I use digital stuff at home because I can't crank a tube amp in an apartment, and I use tube stuff live because I've yet to find anything as satisfying to play live than a cranked tube amp. If I didn't have a band, I'd see no reason of having tube amps at home. Bet then I don't live in a detached house, so everybody's case is different.

What a wonderful time to be a guitar player!


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

Im just the guy who went from a jcm800 2203 and blackface RI twin to digital and didnt find anything lacking


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## Choop (Apr 29, 2021)

budda said:


> Im just the guy who went from a jcm800 2203 and blackface RI twin to digital and didnt find anything lacking



To be fair I wouldn't want to roll with that dual amp setup either. XD


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## budda (Apr 29, 2021)

Choop said:


> To be fair I wouldn't want to roll with that dual amp setup either. XD



The rigs were that x2 with ppc412s, svt classic and 810 cab.

If you plan to tour after this pandemic, buy a dolly .


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## RevDrucifer (May 1, 2021)

I've owned a Carvin Legacy halfstack, XXX, XXL, Dual Rec, MKIV and a couple Fender combos and spent more than half my life playing through them, don't miss them a single bit. There's nothing I can't do with the AxeFX that I could do with those, in fact, it's completely the opposite. Once I started listening to guitars in a recording situation/through studio monitors I changed my stance on a lot of things. It's too awesome having complete control over my guitar tones. That's literally a dream come true for me.


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