# Ukraine (sorry?)



## marshallH

I understand the whole government overthrowing thing is probably a sensitive subject. I was just wondering if anybody had any information on how the general public that isn't out in the streets fighting is doing? Does it affect you guys very much? Are there any people from Ukraine on this forum? Is there even internet there right now? Has the situation gotten worse? Etc.


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## Murmel

No love for the Ukraine here.

Shit's going down. Bad.

BBC News - Ukraine unrest: At least 21 protesters dead in clashes

Then according to CNN aprox. 100 killed during riots today (thursday). Not sure how legit these numbers are though.

Truce crumbles amid gunfire in Ukraine, protesters claim 100 dead - CNN.com


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## hairychris

Yeah. Grim shit is going down.

Hope everyone on here is OK.


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## Necris

NSFW.


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## The Q

Far right wing bastards in cahoots with the cops. Bastards!

Makes sense I guess... The cops are not here to protect you, their job is to protect those who pay their salaries. 99% chance you are not a member of that club...

....ing world we live in...


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## TauSigmaNova

My parents are from Soviet Ukraine and my grandparents still live there. Terrible to hear about all this crap out there.


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## Andrew Romanov

The Q said:


> Far right wing bastards in cahoots with the cops. Bastards!
> 
> Makes sense I guess... The cops are not here to protect you, their job is to protect those who pay their salaries. 99% chance you are not a member of that club...
> 
> ....ing world we live in...


Don't believe everything you see on the internet. What happens in Ukraine now is just another revolution organized by ... I guess you know who. The police do not even have a right to use firearms now.


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## 1b4n3z

Andrew Romanov said:


> Don't believe everything you see on the internet. What happens in Ukraine now is just another revolution organized by ... I guess you know who. The police do not even have a right to use firearms now.



Do tell who are responsible for the shootings, I'd like to hear the Russian version of events. European media has quite a uniform coverage after all.


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## Andrew Romanov

1b4n3z said:


> Do tell who are responsible for the shootings, I'd like to hear the Russian version of events. European media has quite a uniform coverage after all.


Well, I won't make any conclusions, they are up to you. I'll just add a couple of facts european media prefer to be silent about.
1) Leaders of the opposition
a) Arseniy Yacenuk - leader of Batkovschina party. Which is a member of European people's party. One of the main points of his politics is to exclude Russian language from the list of national languages. Remember - most of the people in Kiev (for example) use Russian as their first language. And a HUGE amount of people have roots in Russia.
b)Vitaly Klichko - a boxer, citizen and taxpayer of Germany, lives there. He is the leader of "Udar" party. In the list of partners on their official website we can find International Republicans Institute (chairman John McCain)
c) Oleg Tyagnibok - "Svoboda" party - ultra right (read nazi) political figure. Supports all the violent actions taken against the police. Believes in his personal hero who fought on the side of Hitler's forces in WW II.

So, plenty of good guys fighting for freedom here, huh?

2) These horrible events start after Ukrainian government's decision to stop the process of eurointegration.

3) Opposition people on a daily basis have meetings with politicans from USA and Europe to coordinate their actions.

4) Like I said, the police don't have a right to use firearms. Who shoots then - who knows...

5) The eastern part of Ukraine is against the actions taken by the opposition. People from Krym administration even mentioned they will separate from Ukraine if the government fails.

6) A police arsenal was captured and now the weapons are being used on the streets.

7) There is a video of John McCain filming Maidan square on his cellphone not long before these events.

These are just a few of many examples. I'm not defending the government though - it is responsible for all of this.


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## 1b4n3z

Thanks for the input  It does appear, as I feared, that official Russia is taking the current government's side there. Hopefully we don't see the military enforcing peace there, but it strongly looks like it will happen soon. From here it doesn't seem there even is an opposition, things have gone too far by now.


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## Andrew Romanov

1b4n3z said:


> Thanks for the input  It does appear, as I feared, that official Russia is taking the current government's side there. Hopefully we don't see the military enforcing peace there, but it strongly looks like it will happen soon. From here it doesn't seem there even is an opposition, things have gone too far by now.


No problem 
What other choices do our government have? They say they won't perform any actions without mutual agreement. Ukranians are our brothers, my neighbour's mother lives in Lvov, so it's more than painful to watch what's happening there. There is no opposition - there are people who want to take the country apart. And I'm afraid they will succeed.


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## Grand Moff Tim

Andrew Romanov said:


> 7) There is a video of John McCain filming Maidan square on his cellphone not long before these events.



Signifying what exactly? Are you insinuating that he was there performing reconnaissance of some sort? Because that would be fuggin' hilarious . 

I'm sure if the government wanted to get footage of a populated and well-trafficked area in another country, they'd send a high-profile politician and formal presidential candidate to take pictures with his phone, not an undercover CIA agent, a native informant, or one of the muiltimillion dollar spy satelites the government has to take pictures of pretty much any place they want, unimpeded.

Hell, they could use Google Earth .


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## Andrew Romanov

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Signifying what exactly? Are you insinuating that he was there performing reconnaissance of some sort? Because that would be fuggin' hilarious .
> 
> I'm sure if the government wanted to get footage of a populated and well-trafficked area in another country, they'd send a high-profile politician and formal presidential candidate to take pictures with his phone, not an undercover CIA agent, a native informant, or one of the muiltimillion dollar spy satelites the government has to take pictures of pretty much any place they want, unimpeded.
> 
> Hell, they could use Google Earth .


To be honest I don't know why he did that ))) Anyways no need to use satellites or CIA there - that was just a friendly visit to support democracy


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## crg123

Its weird. It seems like every time I see this conversation people actually from the Ukraine and Russia seem to say "Don't believe the media," which makes me question whats really going on. False reporting is not uncommon to hide some sort of agenda as we've seen in the past. It's really about who has the power to get the information they want out there. I don't really know what to believe. 

I'm unsure of whats going on, and consider myself not informed so I'll stay out of this conversation, until I read more into this but I just wanted to bring up how strange that was. Either way, stay safe our Ukrainian friends!


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## dcoughlin1

Apparently this just happened. I'm not sure if it's true or not though
Ukraine Protestors Agree To Deal - Business Insider


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## Talmaci

I'm from Moldova (neiborhood country of Ukraine) and I have a lot of relatives in Ukraine. I would like to say you that media demonstrates a lot of fictitious stories. Police was not shooting people on the streets... this is a dirt provocation. There is also very interesting fact - all the demonstrators and activists are alcoholics, crazy young boys that want to play 'war', homeless and uneducated people. They came at the protests to get money. The intelligent part of population has another ideals and dreams. They don't need this awful chaos! And this people is much closer to Europeans than crazy activists that even don't want to work.


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## 1b4n3z

Russian forces are mobilized at the Ukrainian border, not looking too good.


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## Vostre Roy

1b4n3z said:


> Russian forces are mobilized at the Ukrainian border, not looking too good.



An unknown armed guerilla took control of the parlement. Uncomfirmed yet if it was a russian called act, but the russian flag is flowing over place...

Now that Sotchi is over, time for a war?


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## necronile

Talmaci said:


> I'm from Moldova (neiborhood country of Ukraine) and I have a lot of relatives in Ukraine. I would like to say you that media demonstrates a lot of fictitious stories. Police was not shooting people on the streets... this is a dirt provocation. There is also very interesting fact - all the demonstrators and activists are alcoholics, crazy young boys that want to play 'war', homeless and uneducated people. They came at the protests to get money. The intelligent part of population has another ideals and dreams. They don't need this awful chaos! And this people is much closer to Europeans than crazy activists that even don't want to work.




Dont know if its the police or not,but someone is indeed shooting unarmed people


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## metallatem

We in the USA are blessed to have peace as our normal state, much of the rest of the world does not.


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## groverj3

Hopefully everything over there is resolved in a peaceful manner.

All of this crap between "pro-EU/US" groups and a supposed "pro-Russian" side seems completely stupid in the year 2014. I'm sure things are much more complicated internally than they appear on CNN though. Neither side is likely to be full of saints and free from corruption.

I guess at the end of the day I'm just another twenty-something, peace-mongering, middle class, white, US citizen, but I'm hoping for a good resolution to the conflict over there.


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## The Q

Jaysis, it gets worse day by day. To be honest, I'm not sure I can grasp all the geopolitics in Ukraine's situation, but the false dilemmas in the likes of "Russia with Yanukovich vs EU with neonazis" are a bit worrying.

I hope that the situation resolves as peacefully as possible, though the recent Crimea airports takeover is *very* worrying.


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## 1b4n3z

Plot thickens - a video was published in the national TV in Russia (they all are national), showing how allegedly Ukrainian insurgents are being trained. The video is actually from an Estonian voluntary forces training camp, but close 'nuff, eh? What's worrying is that the drill instructor is most likely Finnish. Hopefully they don't try to make it the first in a series of 'they're all against us' misinformation campaign. It's cold war all over again folks


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## Andrew Romanov

1b4n3z said:


> Plot thickens - a video was published in the national TV in Russia (they all are national), showing how allegedly Ukrainian insurgents are being trained. The video is actually from an Estonian voluntary forces training camp, but close 'nuff, eh? What's worrying is that the drill instructor is most likely Finnish. Hopefully they don't try to make it the first in a series of 'they're all against us' misinformation campaign. It's cold war all over again folks


Proof please. What channel?
Yanukovich's press conference where he said who is responsible for everything happened in Ukraine has just ended. I wonder which part of it yours 'free' media show you, lol.


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## asher

Andrew Romanov said:


> Proof please. What channel?
> Yanukovich's press conference where he said who is responsible for everything happened in Ukraine has just ended. I wonder which part of it yours 'free' media show you, lol.



If you want to play that game: What is yours telling you about the reports of Russian military forces moving into the Ukraine and Crimea?


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## 1b4n3z

Andrew Romanov said:


> Proof please. What channel?
> Yanukovich's press conference where he said who is responsible for everything happened in Ukraine has just ended. I wonder which part of it yours 'free' media show you, lol.



I guess we got all of it, but it wasn't much of interest. The program was _Spetsialnyi korrespondent _by Arkadi Mamontov (sp?. Here's a link Ð¡Ð¿ÐµÑÐ¸Ð°Ð»ÑÐ½ÑÐ¹ ÐºÐ¾ÑÑÐµÑÐ¿Ð¾Ð½Ð´ÐµÐ½Ñ / Ð£ÐºÑÐ°Ð¸Ð½Ð°: ÑÐ°Ð¾Ñ-Ð´ÐµÐ¼Ð¾ÐºÑÐ°ÑÐ¸Ñ. ÐÑÐºÐ°Ð´Ð¸Ð¹ ÐÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð½ÑÐ¾Ð² / Russia.tv


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## Andrew Romanov

asher said:


> If you want to play that game: What is yours telling you about the reports of Russian military forces moving into the Ukraine and Crimea?


And who told you that? We have our fleet near Crimea. And we have it there for many many years. It has not moved since then. No forces.
Invasion means WAR. Our government isn't that stupid. The rumours are spread by nazis who now represent themselves as a 'legitimate government'. NAZIS, goddamnit! How can you trust people who are called after Bandera?
15,000 Ukraine nationalists march for divisive Bandera
Please remember: Ukraine is our brotherhood country. I mean we're connected on a family levels and usually know more than mass media tell us and you.


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## Andrew Romanov

1b4n3z said:


> I guess we got all of it, but it wasn't much of interest. The program was _Spetsialnyi korrespondent _by Arkadi Mamontov (sp?. Here's a link Ð¡Ð¿ÐµÑÐ¸Ð°Ð»ÑÐ½ÑÐ¹ ÐºÐ¾ÑÑÐµÑÐ¿Ð¾Ð½Ð´ÐµÐ½Ñ / Ð£ÐºÑÐ°Ð¸Ð½Ð°: ÑÐ°Ð¾Ñ-Ð´ÐµÐ¼Ð¾ÐºÑÐ°ÑÐ¸Ñ. ÐÑÐºÐ°Ð´Ð¸Ð¹ ÐÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð½ÑÐ¾Ð² / Russia.tv


Shit, 1 hr long. Need more time


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## oldbulllee

ah....
politics.
anyone remember Trocki? a permanent revolution. 
but for the gain of powerholders.


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## asher

Andrew Romanov said:


> And who told you that? We have our fleet near Crimea. And we have it there for many many years. It has not moved since then. No forces.
> Invasion means WAR. Our government isn't that stupid. The rumours are spread by nazis who now represent themselves as a 'legitimate government'. NAZIS, goddamnit! How can you trust people who are called after Bandera?
> 15,000 Ukraine nationalists march for divisive Bandera
> Please remember: Ukraine is our brotherhood country. I mean we're connected on a family levels and usually know more than mass media tell us and you.



Is the BBC enough? citing AP reports on top of their own observations.


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## Andrew Romanov

asher said:


> Is the BBC enough? citing AP reports on top of their own observations.


The guy from the current Ukranian government says on his facebook page this is a military takeover. Yeah, right, with a couple of dozens of people. There weren't any official statement of performing a military operation on the Crimea territory. These people are russian speaking (the majority of Crimea population) militia. And they don't really like what is happening in Kiev.


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## asher

Andrew Romanov said:


> The guy from the current Ukranian government says on his facebook page this is a military takeover. Yeah, right, with a couple of dozens of people. There weren't any official statement of performing a military operation on the Crimea territory. These people are russian speaking (the majority of Crimea population) militia. And they don't really like what is happening in Kiev.



Well, of course he does. That wasn't what I was referring to.

And of course Russia isn't going to officially declare anything right now, because WAR (presumably). Putin's not an idiot. Which is why IF you were going to do something like this, you send in unmarked SF-esque units so they can claim to be a militia and then do exactly what you like, details to be sorted out internationally later.

But to seize the airports they clearly don't need more, right? Now they could fly in whatever they wanted. Although if the reports of 8 Russian military choppers are true, they probably don't need that much else given how fragmented the government's in, so "official" response is going to be... lacking.

I'm pretty sure even in the U.S. a militia wouldn't be that well equipped, but I recognize that is going out into rhetorical territory, so you can ignore this mostly


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## Andrew Romanov

asher said:


> Well, of course he does. That wasn't what I was referring to.
> 
> And of course Russia isn't going to officially declare anything right now, because WAR (presumably). Putin's not an idiot. Which is why IF you were going to do something like this, you send in unmarked SF-esque units so they can claim to be a militia and then do exactly what you like, details to be sorted out internationally later.
> 
> But to seize the airports they clearly don't need more, right? Now they could fly in whatever they wanted. Although if the reports of 8 Russian military choppers are true, they probably don't need that much else given how fragmented the government's in, so "official" response is going to be... lacking.
> 
> I'm pretty sure even in the U.S. a militia wouldn't be that well equipped, but I recognize that is going out into rhetorical territory, so you can ignore this mostly


You're right, there is such a possibility  I wouldn't ignore it. And I'm pretty sure that Crimean people will support it. The real question is what the people of Ukraine need. And what this revolution was planned for. Certanly not for peace, happines and democracy.


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## asher

Andrew Romanov said:


> You're right, there is such a possibility  I wouldn't ignore it. And I'm pretty sure that Crimean people will support it. The real question is what the people of Ukraine need. And what this revolution was planned for. Certanly not for peace, happines and democracy.



I certainly don't know the history nearly well enough to say much more than pure speculation from here, but maybe we could see the highly Russian cultured/language region break off and join the Federation while the rest of the Ukraine moves to open up ties to the EU?

I get Russia has some military assets to protect, but I feel like if they just went on alert and were all like "We are just protecting our military interests" and kept it that way that'd be fine, instead of this crap - presuming cloak & dagger is true.


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## Andrew Romanov

asher said:


> I certainly don't know the history nearly well enough to say much more than pure speculation from here, but maybe we could see the highly Russian cultured/language region break off and join the Federation while the rest of the Ukraine moves to open up ties to the EU?


On May 25's the Crimean people will settle that on a referendum. As for the rest of the Ukraine going to EU and NATO - it's not going to make us happy obviously.


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## Jakke

I know how fond Russians are of conspiracy theories about how the west will invent anything to view them as villains (and the Russian state isn't helping), but to count up what has happened the last couple of days:
-Heavily armed men speaking Russian with masks took possession of the airport in Sevastopol.
-Tanks have been photographed within Ukraine's borders, some unmarked, some with Russian markings.
-About 2000 of the same Russian-speaking men have landed on the airport taken by the "militia" (which is, to be fair, according to Ukrainian sources).

Occham's razor leads us to Russia being somehow involved, persecution complex from Russians or not. Not necessarily an active role, but that's not the only way to play the game, is it?


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## asher

Andrew Romanov said:


> On May 25's the Crimean people will settle that on a referendum. As for the rest of the Ukraine going to EU and NATO - it's not going to make us happy obviously.


 

Maybe not. But it's not your decision.


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## Jakke

^But it's very representative of the current Russian foreign policy. They seem to have some difficulty to grasp that eastern Europe doesn't belong to them.


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## Jakke

There is also an even more interesting dimension in the Budapest memorandum of -94, where the US, United Kingdom, and Russia promised to defend Ukraine's borders provided Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons. Putin would have to act very much in character to break that one.

[source]


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## Andrew Romanov

asher said:


> Maybe not. But it's not your decision.


Sorry, I said it wrong - they will think about it on a referendum.


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## Andrew Romanov

The situation is getting worse.


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## Jakke

Yeah, it's pretty awful


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## facepalm66

Well, those pesky russians now came to Krym with full military support.
Hello war! Greetings for world war 3!


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## Fat-Elf

In army, we have this joke saying the current class will never return home. Looking at how things turn the joke will not be a joke long anymore.


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## oversteve

The Russian Federation Council officially granted the right to invade Ukraine to settle the unbalanced situation in Ukraine which is prety calm, thought Russian Forces already invaded Krimea a few days ago causing troubles themselves taking government buildings. The RF Council claimed that there were some casualties among the Russian residents living in Krimea, however there are none, they recognized their error, however the decision is settled and they keep the people of Ukraine under real pressure, the Ukrainian forces are being mobilized throughout country. 

The Council and also the Russian tv chanels and pro-government media sources are claiming that the "legitimate" president that in reality used to rob people and degrade the country was overthrown by the "nazies" living in Wesetern Ukraine. You can check the photos of the residence, owned by the president, the text is in Russian but there numerous photos showing the luxury the president was living in, considering that the average sallary in Ukriane is near 200-250 usd, hell, there is even a zoo in there, a collection of rare autos and ... a golden bread, is he even sane?  
the link

Also there are numerous documents recovered from the nearby river with proofs of bribing, calculations of money spent on building and decorating that resodence etc.


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## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> Well, I won't make any conclusions, they are up to you. I'll just add a couple of facts european media prefer to be silent about.
> 1) Leaders of the opposition
> a) Arseniy Yacenuk - leader of Batkovschina party. Which is a member of European people's party. One of the main points of his politics is to exclude Russian language from the list of national languages. Remember - most of the people in Kiev (for example) use Russian as their first language. And a HUGE amount of people have roots in Russia.
> b)Vitaly Klichko - a boxer, citizen and taxpayer of Germany, lives there. He is the leader of "Udar" party. In the list of partners on their official website we can find International Republicans Institute (chairman John McCain)
> c) Oleg Tyagnibok - "Svoboda" party - ultra right (read nazi) political figure. Supports all the violent actions taken against the police. Believes in his personal hero who fought on the side of Hitler's forces in WW II.



I won't protect these guys since they are not holy by any means but there is some obvious bullshit

First of all the Russian language is not a government language in Ukraine however yes, some major part of people are using it, even I for example in 90% cases use Russian though I live in Western Ukraine which is considered to be the land of local nationalists), however no one is prohibiting it's use, there are Russian schools in Regions with dominant Russian language, it simply can't be used to fill in the official papers. Of course there is some small % of radical people claming all Russian speaking people to be occupants but they are just thet bad sheep of the family, and there is also some % of people leaving in Eastern Ukraine claiming that all leaving in the West part are Nazis. So 

a) Yacenyuk, is not one of these radicals by any means, more center orienten neither nationalist, nor communist, some thing like US Democrates or something like that, which is all talk but no use 

b) same goes for Klichko, you should know of him since he and his brother are boxing world champions. In general he's the same as Yacenyuk but not that clever however he's more popular among common people due to his personal achievements, just like Schwarzeneger in US, who is also a friend of his btw  He's not a resident of Germany, he used to have the permit to live in Germany due to his managers being Germans and his professional career starting there, but he refused to hold it in order to participate in the president's elections since it was speculated by the government-oriented media

c) Svoboda and Tyagnybok are not Nazis, they are the nationalists party, in today's reality they are something similar to the US Republicans, at least as I being a Ukrainian can understand the Republicans program . Tyagnybok used to be a little bit overemphasized by the nationality and language question but it was more then 10 years ago and now even he realizes that such views won't find any support in the whole Ukraine.

But of course according to the Russian media they are all Nazis doing some illegal stuff in Ukraine like drinking the Russian blood, f***ing children and eating corpses


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## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> So, plenty of good guys fighting for freedom here, huh?
> 
> 2) These horrible events start after Ukrainian government's decision to stop the process of eurointegration.
> 
> 3) Opposition people on a daily basis have meetings with politicans from USA and Europe to coordinate their actions.
> 
> 4) Like I said, the police don't have a right to use firearms. Who shoots then - who knows...
> 
> 5) The eastern part of Ukraine is against the actions taken by the opposition. People from Krym administration even mentioned they will separate from Ukraine if the government fails.
> 
> 6) A police arsenal was captured and now the weapons are being used on the streets.
> 
> 7) There is a video of John McCain filming Maidan square on his cellphone not long before these events.
> 
> These are just a few of many examples. I'm not defending the government though - it is responsible for all of this.


[/QUOTE]

2) The overall situation is the following, at first the president says that they are taking the European course to gain support of people before the Parliament Elections, the propresident party wins in with some manipulations, some time passes, they see the state treasury is almost empty due to being spent on the stuff I gave a link to in the previous post and such, they are looking to get some funds to spend but EU says they will give no credit and they will make Ukraine do some reformations which most probably will lower the level of corruption and make them unable to rob in such quantities and Russian Federation says it will give the credit of 15 billion USD and won't touch them. So obviosly the president stopped the EU integration process, turned to Russia and some demonstrations were held in Ukraine's capital Kyiv in support of EU integrations, at first they were peceful, then in the end of Nevember the president tried to suppress it with force, it was still peacefull after that but of course after such actions the number of demonstrants started increasing, there's even a video of more then 200000 people on Maidan singing the hymn on New Years Eve, after that by mid January president issued some laws to suppress the demonstrants, tried to insult the people and force them to leave and that's when it all started as a revolution. 

3) The president was supported by Russian Federation openly so it's quite obvious that the opposition would tried to gain the support of the opposites - EU and US

4) The police din't have the right to use the firearms but there was some evidence of pro-president special forces using them and causing some deaths before the main confrontation on February 20-21 when the president gave them the right to use the guns which lead to numerous lifes being taken, the videos in the previous posts are of these events.

5) Of course there are people who don't agree with what have happened, first of all thanks to the pro-presidential propaganda in the local chanels and some obvious lies about Western Nazis in Russian Media which is favoured by people in Eastern and Southern Ukraine due to simply being in Russian language. But again there are many people among the Russian Speaking Ukrainians who a favouring what happened in Kyiv. It's just that the majority of population in Ukraine is quite passive and won't take any part in any demonstartions. So there were some demonstrations held but in most cases they were speculating on the Language question I've described before and of course on West Ukrainian "Nazis" coming, and actually they weren't even thinking on coming  As to the Crimea - the local parliament was occupied by Russian Forces with they identifying tokens removed (so Russia claimed there was no intervention at first), local deputies were made to accept the pro-russian representative, who is by the way the member of party who took only 4% during elections in whole Crimea, he's causing all the rucus with the "Nazis" coming, started the referendum thing and sent a request to RF government to invade Ukraine which was granted today. As to the poeple there they are quite calm doing nothing neither protesting nor supportingm but they are not that hapy with that stuff after all and hoping the summer season won't be ruined since most of them are able to make living due to Crimea being a resort and there might be no income due to the RF forces being there.

6) Yep, some arsenals were captured but most of guns are already retrieved, that is first, and second - the local people have organized some kind of protective forces which accompany the police performing the watch and help them prevent the crimes, to tell the truss it's even more calm that way now, since the post-soviet police turned into bussines of taking bribes, just like any governmental structure and now they actually have to work the way they should.

7) Can't say anything about that, there were many people coming to Maidan, from US, from Russia, from EU, so it's hard to associate it.


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## oversteve

As to the current state of events - in short the president ran away right after the main face off instead of keeping the agreement with the EU ambasadors and signing the laws that will limit his powers, his house and affairs are inspected and he's considered a political criminal by the government, Russian Federations states that he's not hiding in there, almost a week later that all stuff with Russian Forces in Crimea starts telling that it's just the military command exercises, then few days later our president surfaces in Rostov-on-Don which is onviously in Russia telling he's legitimate and it's all bullshit about his residence and luxury living, here is how he's appologizing to people of Ukraine for being away  you can't understand the word's but you can see his emotions


And today we had that issue with Russian Council permiting Putin to start the war.


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## oversteve

So a big request to all of you - please spread the word if possible and help prevent the war since it will only lead to many cassualties among simple people of Ukraine and Russia who are considered to be brothers but seems like we are no more after all that shit happening today with the help of Russian Government


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## groverj3

I'm thankful to hear a Ukrainian perspective on this. Media around the world is always biased, though I think many of the more intelligent people realize this and take everything with a grain of salt.

Oversteve, hopefully you and any family you have are safe over there.


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## oversteve

Sofar everything's calm here except the Crimea and we hope it will stay that way and end this way without any cassualties, but unfortunatelly some provocations in order to justify the invasion were already held. 

Can't say anything about the foreign media if they are biased since didn't watch many foreign news, but still even now some local regional tv chanels show some real bull and praising Russia forces as saviours, same goes for 99% of Russian Media. And what is more important many people believe this, no offence but the things *Andrew Romanov* told here is just what the Russian Media proclaims and makes people believe - showing the people confronting the greedy politics as the rise of the local Nazis supported by the UN, EU or US. 

Here's the picture illustrating all that idea perfectly well





people in the left are considered the professional extremists trained in EU terrorist camps formed by NATO and financed by EU and US
people in the rigth are sponaneously organized non military self defence forces (who are actually Russian forces with the identifying tokens removed)


As to the Russian Fleet in Crimea - it's the real source of pressure upon our gevoernment and danger especialy at this moment when Russia is breaking the treaty and occupying the peninsula, so I really believe that it will be denounced after all this ends and the forces will be removed from the territory of our country.


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## facepalm66

Just to say, yesterday saw the news, they show russians as doing the good job, with "interviews" of people, literally praising them, thanking them and speaking some num nuts about power and end of some sort of suppression. Right 

Same goes for russian media, 100% "russia will fix this" 

Hell yea, propaganda.


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## oversteve

Some fresh example of propaganda - the Russian news today are telling that there are 140000 of refuges coming to Russia from Ukraine through the South-Eatsern border and showing the videos of Ukrainian-Polish customs with lots of people which is actually in the West  

link


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## MailMan

I'm with our Ukrainian neighbours in this one. Russia should keep the hell out of Crimea. If Crimea wants to join Russia, it should be done by a referendum, not by military intervention that was started on false pretense and nonsense allegations.

Though one has to wonder whether a public referendum can be clean if Russia and tzar Putin are involved...


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## Andrew Romanov

*oversteve*, I'd like to hear an eastern-Ukranian version of the story too. The fact is, there is an eastern propaganda and western propaganda. Maidan supporters decided the fate of Ukraine not asking the permission of the another half of the country. Changed the government by force instead of legitimate elections and gave power to some "suspicious" people. Here are your results. And this is very sad.


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## oversteve

*Andrew Romanov*
The fact is that there are some radically looking people in the West and in the East, same as in every country, most people are peacefull, but still you can find some that will meet your expectations and cite the bull shown on Russian Media. 

Here's a nice example of Russian media on air from some time ago talking about the extremists in Ukraine and calling some random Crimean Deputy expecting him to tell that everything's bad however he tells that everything's peacefull in Crimea, the people are demonstrating peacefully, it was before all that confrontation with lots of casualties


I live in Western Ukraine, the land of so called local Nazis opposing all Russian speaking Ukrainian population and doing some nasty stuff the likes of what you can see on the Canibal Corpse covers  (according to pro-Russian media of course), however my parrents and grandparents are from Yaroslavl which is obviously in Russia, all my relatives are speaking Russian in 90% of situations without any issues, I myself being 30 years old have met the people telling me that I shouldn't talk in Russian only twice in my whole LIFETIME and both times these people were drunk  But unfortunately my Grandma is just a vivid example of the one you're looking for, watching only Russian TV she believes that there are tonns of extremist in here however she can't find any when she goes shopping everyday, and she is heavily offended by the fact that the shows in Russian dubbing shown on Ukrainian chanels have Ukrainian subtitles but she's already 76 and that explains the most 

I'm not supporting the EU integration and Russian Customs Union by any means, I prefere Ukraine would stay independent, however we're at the situation when we have to chose between two evils so to say and to tell the truth the EU looks more preferable due to many circumstances.

As to the government - we still have our legally elected Parliament of 450 deputies working without any issues, the president instead of fulfilling the points of agreement made on February 21 ran away and was hiding therefore he was considered unable to peform his dirrect obligations, after that many of his leftover belongins and documents were expected, many eveidences of treason, bribing and robbery were found. So there is no use arguing about legitimacy of our government, I'll say it again - our Parliament is legally elected


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> *Andrew Romanov*
> The fact is that there are some radically looking people in the West and in the East, same as in every country, most people are peacefull, but still you can find some that will meet your expectations and cite the bull shown on Russian Media.
> 
> Here's a nice example of Russian media on air from some time ago talking about the extremists in Ukraine and calling some random Crimean Deputy expecting him to tell that everything's bad however he tells that everything's peacefull in Crimea, the people are demonstrating peacefully, it was before all that confrontation with lots of casualties
> 
> 
> I live in Western Ukraine, the land of so called local Nazis opposing all Russian speaking Ukrainian population and doing some nasty stuff the likes of what you can see on the Canibal Corpse covers  (according to pro-Russian media of course), however my parrents and grandparents are from Yaroslavl which is obviously in Russia, all my relatives are speaking Russian in 90% of situations without any issues, I myself being 30 years old have met the people telling me that I shouldn't talk in Russian only twice in my whole LIFETIME and both times these people were drunk  But unfortunately my Grandma is just a vivid example of the one you're looking for, watching only Russian TV she believes that there are tonns of extremist in here however she can't find any when she goes shopping everyday, and she is heavily offended by the fact that the shows in Russian dubbing shown on Ukrainian chanels have Ukrainian subtitles but she's already 76 and that explains the most
> 
> I'm not supporting the EU integration and Russian Customs Union by any means, I prefere Ukraine would stay independent, however we're at the situation when we have to chose between two evils so to say and to tell the truth the EU looks more preferable due to many circumstances.
> 
> As to the government - we still have our legally elected Parliament of 450 deputies working without any issues, the president instead of fulfilling the points of agreement made on February 21 ran away and was hiding therefore he was considered unable to peform his dirrect obligations, after that many of his leftover belongins and documents were expected, many eveidences of treason, bribing and robbery were found. So there is no use arguing about legitimacy of our government, I'll say it again - our Parliament is legally elected



You will get your independency. Which means country split. Its your second revolution since 2004 with the same ....ing people leading it. Gosh, do you even learn something? Now you have years of poverty ahead no matter of the results. EU and US have already said they give you money only on slavery terms. Welcome to the new Ukraine.


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## oversteve

Well, it's better to try to change something even if it is unseccessfull at first then sit under the boot expecting something good to happen on itself - it won't happen. The people involved in the revolution are the same but not the ones leading it also these people are not leaving anywhere until they see some actual changes. 

As to the EU credit terms, I realize the terms are not that good from one point of view, but from the other poimt they are requesting some changes in the polytical system that will lead to the lower level of corruption in Ukraine, that one thing if applied correctly will be enough to cover all the minuses and expenses from that agreement. 

Btw the level of corruption in Russia not thet low as well, you'd better watch you leaders instead of sticking your nose into the Ukrainian affairs and caliming local people Nazis


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## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> they are requesting some changes in the polytical system that will lead to the lower level of corruption in Ukraine


Haha, you really think they care about your corruption levels? Dude, wake up. EU just need to expand its borders, simple geopolitics. Now think about whos really sticking his nose into your business. And when I see a man with a Nazi symbolic, I will call him Nazi.
Some people has helped your revolution and they will ask to pay the debt sooner or later. They will feed you with buns though


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## oversteve

They don't care about lowering the corruption levels but they are requesting some changes that will eventually lead to it, and of course I understand it will take some time

Please tell me where did you see people with the Nazi symbolic? You mean the nationalists' red and black flag and the portrat of Stepan Bandera who was kept from 1941 till the end of 44 in concentration camp? Should I remind you about general Vlasov then? What about Stalin and Lenin? And the commies party? As I said there are some radicaly oriented people here and there, but they are not numerous and they in most keep silent, same goes for Russia - you've got tonns of skinheads as well. 

So it's just a speculation to feed the trolls who are ready to eat and swallow it all.

It might sound strange but sofar the bigest help we've got is from Putin himself, first when he refused to support Yanukovich when he was still here being a president and now - nothing unites people like a common enemy.


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## Necris

Andrew Romanov said:


> Haha, you really think they care about your corruption levels? Dude, wake up.* EU just need to expand its borders, *simple geopolitics. Now think about whos really sticking his nose into your business.



As opposed to the Russian military, which has entered Crimea purely in the interest of assisting the Ukranian People, right?


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## oversteve

Found one more more obvious bullshit and gues what it's Russian news again 

They are telling it's the confrontation in Crimea in Simferopol on February 27 and showing the videos of confrontation in Kyiv from some time ago, the ones who understand Russian language can check it starting from 1:45


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## Jakke

Necris said:


> As opposed to the Russian military, which has entered Crimea purely in the interest of *assisting the Ukranian People*, right?



The *Russians* in Chrimea


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## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> They don't care about lowering the corruption levels but they are requesting some changes that will eventually lead to it, and of course I understand it will take some time
> 
> Please tell me where did you see people with the Nazi symbolic? You mean the nationalists' red and black flag and the portrat of Stepan Bandera who was kept from 1941 till the end of 44 in concentration camp? Should I remind you about general Vlasov then? What about Stalin and Lenin? And the commies party? As I said there are some radicaly oriented people here and there, but they are not numerous and they in most keep silent, same goes for Russia - you've got tonns of skinheads as well.
> 
> So it's just a speculation to feed the trolls who are ready to eat and swallow it all.
> 
> It might sound strange but sofar the bigest help we've got is from Putin himself, first when he refused to support Yanukovich when he was still here being a president and now - nothing unites people like a common enemy.


Yes, about that Stepan Bandera who decided to betray Soviet Union and fight on the side of Hitler. Ahhh, I see why you support Maidan, you probably like him. And about nazis - I saw people from the Right sector with SS logos on their shields on BBC (link is somewhere in this thread). BBC, not our 'bullshit media'. And the Right sector is the main force behind violence in Kiev.


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## Andrew Romanov

Jakke said:


> The *Russians* in Chrimea


Exactly. The Russian people whos interests haven't been taken into account during this "revolution". The majority of people in eastern regions who want to be friends with us. 
Anyways, Kiev is burning, Crimea is on its way to become totally independent from you and probably the rest of the east will join it. You will pay debts for next 10 years to EU....
If you want to live like that - its your choice. Others just don't.


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## groverj3

There's no war like a good old fashioned cold war.


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## groverj3

Seriously though, I fail to see what Russia has to gain by doing any of this invasion business other than the land itself. Other than a significant ethnic Russian population in the area, why would they even care? Trying to re-live the "glory days" of the USSR?

Any other reasoning put forth I'm inclined to think is just posturing and BS to rationalize it.

I mean, if Crimea was already going to vote on joining the Russian Federation I would think that this reeks of Russia not believing that the popular support was actually there and wanted to pre-empt this while there was some chaos in Ukraine.

Then again, that's me looking at this situation with my "American" viewpoint.


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## marshallH

Russia's whole "we sent troops a them but we also didn't so it wasn't a war" thing reminds me of the kid who suddenly "isn't playing anymore" when something he doesn't like happens in a game. It's literally like they are going "it doesn't count we didn't shake on it" 

Way too much power in an unstable mind.


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## Andrew Romanov

groverj3 said:


> Seriously though, I fail to see what Russia has to gain by doing any of this invasion business other than the land itself. Other than a significant ethnic Russian population in the area, why would they even care? Trying to re-live the "glory days" of the USSR?
> 
> Any other reasoning put forth I'm inclined to think is just posturing and BS to rationalize it.
> 
> I mean, if Crimea was already going to vote on joining the Russian Federation I would think that this reeks of Russia not believing that the popular support was actually there and wanted to pre-empt this while there was some chaos in Ukraine.
> 
> Then again, that's me looking at this situation with my "American" viewpoint.


Some good points here.
First of all, its extremely unlikely that Russia will make any invasion. Its probably a smart move by Putin to keep those radical morons off Crimea so people can make a referendum without mass killings as it happened in Kiev. Nobody wants war. Secondly, Crimea isn't joining the Federation. It becomes an independent formation on the territory of Ukraine. Its own constitution, government, etc. And that pisses off the new Ukrainians. As for our ethnic population - they've officially asked us to come and help them.
If we speak about Russia's territory interests - it is obviously access to the Black Sea and fleet there.


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> Yes, about that Stepan Bandera who decided to betray Soviet Union and fight on the side of Hitler. Ahhh, I see why you support Maidan, you probably like him. And about nazis - I saw people from the Right sector with SS logos on their shields on BBC (link is somewhere in this thread). BBC, not our 'bullshit media'. And the Right sector is the main force behind violence in Kiev.



First of all you'd better try to learn history a little instead of claiming some silly stuff, at least try to read wiki, then you'll see that Bandera was held prisoner in concentartion camp during the whole period of WW2 so he physicaly couldn't join the forces of Nazi. He oposed Soviet Union later cause of all that crazy stuff happening in the country. However somehow Russians tend to Forget about general Vlasov who joined the forces with the SS, did you ever read about who he is? What about the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact? 

How can I like a man being a man?  I can support his views but I'm not since I'm more of liberal views

About people with the SS logos - I wrote it at least 3 times here - some % of radicals is present everywhere, it doesn't mean that all these people on Maidan were radicals and that that force was dominant, you can check the list of the people who died during confrontation - they are from all regions, there are people from East, from West and even from South. 

But as I understand you don't intend to, it's easier to believe what the TV is telling and to justyfy some unaproved violence. 

So if you don't know it for sure please keep from claiming people bad without any proof.


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## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> But as I understand you don't intend to, it's easier to believe what the TV is telling and to justyfy some unaproved violence.
> So if you don't know it for sure please keep from claiming people bad without any proof.


I know history well enough to understand who is Bandera. And if you support him - we got nothing in common. Tell about unapproved violence to the people who died there (both sides). There were no Russian forces there at that time, no one to blame.


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## groverj3

With my post above I was implying that Russia is overstepping its authority.

This is 2014, not 1960. Let Ukraine handle Ukrainian business. Let's not play Cold War Part Deux: Russia vs EU/US. Nobody wants that, and it's just going to destabilize many tenuous situations around the globe.


----------



## oversteve

groverj3 said:


> Seriously though, I fail to see what Russia has to gain by doing any of this invasion business other than the land itself. Other than a significant ethnic Russian population in the area, why would they even care? Trying to re-live the "glory days" of the USSR?
> 
> Any other reasoning put forth I'm inclined to think is just posturing and BS to rationalize it.
> 
> I mean, if Crimea was already going to vote on joining the Russian Federation I would think that this reeks of Russia not believing that the popular support was actually there and wanted to pre-empt this while there was some chaos in Ukraine.
> 
> Then again, that's me looking at this situation with my "American" viewpoint.



Exactly, many famous politogist even from Russia itself claim that Putin has some great Imperial ambition. I won't claim anything since I'm not a politologist myself but there are many obvious facts that our dismissed president tried to lay under the Russian Federation. Can you imagine the ministers of government not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here. Can you imagine the generals commanding the forces not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here as well.

Again many claim that Putin is really afraid of what happened in Kyiv and same revolution happening in Russian Federation since our countries have lots in common, same form of dictatorship. For example during the UN Security Council meeting the day before yesterday the representative of Russia claimed that they will suspend the invasion if our former president Yanukovich will return being a president. Plain and simple 

Here's the video, Andrew please check it
Ð&#8217;Ð¸Ñ&#8218;Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ð¹ Ð§Ñ&#402;Ñ&#8364;ÐºÐ¸Ð½ - Ð²Ñ&#8249;ÑÑ&#8218;Ñ&#402;Ð¿Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ðµ Ð² Ð¡Ð¾Ð²Ð±ÐµÐ·Ðµ Ð&#382;Ð&#382;Ð 02.03.2014 - YouTube

As to the Crimea there's a long story to tell. 
According to the social polls near 35-40 % of people leaving in Crimea support that idea of joining Russian Federation, that is a large number indeed however it is not even being a half. They are going to take the referendum with the Crimea full of Russian forces everywhere wearing guns and even not letting the Ukrainian journalists pass the border - do you really believe that it can be transparrent and without any pressure on the population that way? 

I won't go deep into history but roughly it is obvious why it was made the part of Ukraine during USSR period - the peninsula is surrounded by water from all sides and is connected to Ukraine in the North, 80% of non salty water is supplied to Crimea from the mainland, there are no major power plants in here the electricity is supplied from the mainland, nowadays people gain most part of income from the summer period when people from Ukraine and Russia come here mainly by train or cars for recreation. Now if it's separated from Ukraine the majority of common people will suffer because of it, however it's suitable for Putin since he'll be able to keep the Russian fleet in here, and if Ukraine stays the way it is now with the Crimea as a part of it there is a high probability the treaty will be denounced and the fleet will be removed. 

Thereare many other points of view but they seem more like conspiracy theories, at least at the moment, these two are obvious though.

As to why that many pople support the idea of joining Russia - majority of population in Crimea are Russian speaking, Id' say like 90% or so. The language question was highly exploited by some parties during the whole 23 year period of Ukraine independence, by the party of regions and communists especialy, when you check the current demonstrations in Crymea - people telling they are waiting for the West-Ukrainian Nazis to come and make everyone speak Ukrainian, there will be criminal responsibility for using Russian language and stuff, however of course noone is going to meet these crazy expectations  there are no Naziez coming here. Of course there are many people who do not intend to vouch for joining Russia, some part of them is passive and won't participate in any demonstrations, some part are simply afraid of "unidentified" people in masks with machineguns going freely throughout the cities.

That is the current state in Ukraine in short.


----------



## oversteve

groverj3 said:


> With my post above I was implying that Russia is overstepping its authority.
> 
> This is 2014, not 1960. Let Ukraine handle Ukrainian business. Let's not play Cold War Part Deux: Russia vs EU/US. Nobody wants that, and it's just going to destabilize many tenuous situations around the globe.



Exactly, that is what we are hoping for.


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> I know history well enough to understand who is Bandera. And if you support him - we got nothing in common. Tell about unapproved violence to the people who died there (both sides). There were no Russian forces there at that time, no one to blame.



Ok, I won't try to persuade you, you've got your own point of view, people here can check it for themselves and see who's right or wrong.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> I won't claim anything since I'm not a politologist myself but there are many obvious facts that our dismissed president tried to lay under the Russian Federation. Can you imagine the ministers of government not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here. Can you imagine the generals commanding the forces not being residents of Ukraine? We had it here as well.
> 
> For example during the UN Security Council meeting the day before yesterday the representative of Russia claimed that they will suspend the invasion if our former president Yanukovich will return being a president. Plain and simple
> 
> Here's the video, Andrew please check it
> ÐÐ¸ÑÐ°Ð»Ð¸Ð¹ Ð§ÑÑÐºÐ¸Ð½ - Ð²ÑÑÑÑÐ¿Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ðµ Ð² Ð¡Ð¾Ð²Ð±ÐµÐ·Ðµ ÐÐÐ 02.03.2014 - YouTube


Yanukovich tried to lay under both parties at the same time. That's why you are where you are.
Don't forget the fact that Russia tries to return him and after that make the legitimate elections possible. With people actually voting. Because he's still your president after all. Yanukovich has signed that agreement. We don't need that pussy here too. 
And btw, the new government tried to forbid the Russian langage.


----------



## oversteve

The're one more vivid example



Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐµÑÑÑ Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐ¸Ð² Ð²Ð¾Ð¹Ð½Ñ Ð Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸Ñ: ÐÑÑÐ¼Ñ Ð¼Ð¸Ñ! ÐÐ¾Ð²Ð° Ð½Ð°Ð¼ Ð½Ðµ ÐºÐ¾Ð¼Ð°Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ñ!, - ÑÐ¾ÑÑÐ¸ÑÐ½Ðµ Ð²ÑÑÐ»Ð¸ Ð½Ð° Ð°ÐºÑÐ¸Ð¸ Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐµÑÑÐ° Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐ¸Ð² Ð°Ð³ÑÐµÑÑÐ¸Ð¸ Ð Ð¤ Ð² ÐÑÑÐ¼Ñ. Ð¤ÐÐ¢ÐÑÐµÐ¿Ð¾ÑÑÐ°Ð

There were some demonstrations held in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg against war that were suppresed by the local police. Kremlin is hurting their own people inside Russia and claims it will protect Russian people living in other country? Thx but we'd rather pass it.


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> And btw, the new government tried to forbid the Russian langage.



Again, misinformation, the new government didn't forbid the language itself, the law regulating regional languages was suspended because of having many issues and the new law is being worked on at the moment. 

The point of that law was that if some region had 10% of population speaking some language they are able to fill the official papers in that language. Andrew, does anyone allowed to fill in the official papers in Ukrainian language in Russia since there are tonns of Ukrainians living and working in Russian Federation? The asnwer is no. Same goes for majority of countries, people are allowed to speak many languages but the official papers should be filled using the state language.

At the moment the active law regulating language use is this one from USSR times, set up in 1989, you can check it here
http://www.sdpuo.com/rus/faction/laws/laws-lang/
There is no word of suppresing the regional languages in it

I won't argue that the decision to suspend that law is not timely, but again in most it is just one of speculations to justify the invasion


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> We don't need that pussy here too.



We'll gladly accept him and excort him to Gaaga court. Our government even made an official request however your governmend isn't going to hand him over to us


----------



## oversteve

The "non-legitimate Nazi" government assigned the head of the Ukrainian Jewish comunity as a governor of one of the states. Where were they looking, those "Nazies"?  

I'm looking forward to see how the Russian media will misinterpret it


----------



## 1b4n3z

It's quite impossible to decipher the rationale of the official Russia (as opposed to Russians) here. Ukraine has very wisely refrained from engaging, even though there has been a strong attempt at provocation by the invader and like-minded folk. So far the world has seen only one side causing trouble and it has started a quite predictable capital flight from Russia in fear of domestic crisis. So what's the plan here? Putin has very effectively turned the west and everyone willing to join the west against him, quite possibly removing any chance of Russia led union from taking place in the future. Making a mess of domestic market and strongly suffocating any demonstration even hinting at getting out of Crimea will cause a backlash domestically. The lack of any reason behind all this is very disconcerting, at least to us neighbors.


----------



## oversteve

Well, some politologists asume it is highly possible he's going to take the route of Belarus wanting to isolate the state from the world and this way preventing riots from happening inside the country. 

Also there are some conspiracy theory floating around that seem unlikely but still... 
For example some people think that in a few days Ukraine might delegate a representative to Russia that will settle all the problems and convince Kremlin to retreat, return as some kind of a national hero, take part in the upcoming elections, win them and lay under Putin's rule once again. The one to fit that role is Julia Tymoshenko, previosly she was involved in some bussiness with Russian Government but later she oposed the former president Yanukovich, got into prison for some charges mostly fabricated (but she's not saint by any means, she did a lot of harm to the policy as well thought was really popular among people for quite some time), now she's released and considered a victim of the system of some kind. Most people don't believe her at the moment, but if something like this happens it might turn the tides radically.

Some more stuff to examine for the ones who know Russian language in here, a little list of documented fakes shown by Russian TV chanels
StopFake |

As I see it can be roughly understandable in English as well when put through Google translate, so anyone who speaks English and has some spare time might try checking it as well 

Also there's a nice image demonstrating the way Russian media builds it's propaganda


----------



## Amanita

oversteve said:


> Ok, I won't try to persuade you, you've got your own point of view, people here can check it for themselves and see who's right or wrong.


since you mentioned Wiki
Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Ukrainian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## oversteve

I didn't say anything about that and unfortunately that is some awful fact of history that I fully admit, also as I said I don't support Bandera views by any means and it is wrong to claim most people of western Ukraine are Nazis, but our Russian friend mentioned Bandera joining Hitler forces in antisoviet resistance which is an utter bull since he was kept prisoner during the years of WW2, he was opposing the soviet forces later on after the end of war due to the deeds of soviet supreme chiev Stalin. I'm not making him a hero by any means same as the most people in Ukraine.


----------



## facepalm66

U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel says the U.S. plans to expand military cooperation with Poland and Baltic states. Hagel told Congress Wednesday the U.S. military, eying ways to support allies during the crisis in Ukraine, is stepping up joint training through an aviation detachment in Poland and boosting participation in a NATO air policing mission.

Things tend to become nastier evey day here :/


----------



## oversteve

Well, Russia taking some actions as well, they started transfering tanks to the peninsula. 

Some more news, don't know if they are covered properly in your press

Putin had a press conference yesterday, where he still claimed there are no forces in Crimea, though he was presented with some direct evidences like photos of the forces, videos of the soldiers telling they came from Russia etc., according to him the Crimean self-proclaimed representative is legitimate and the legaly chosen Ukrainian parliament and the cabinet of ministers are not, also in his direct speech as can be seen on video he claimed that in case of armed confrontation Russian Forces will hide behind the backs of Crimean women and children so that Ukrainian Forces can't shoot them, pretty sick stuff  and these are just some weird points of his speech, there were more

Same goes for the Russian minister of defense Shoigu, when he was shown the evidences he claimed them to be a provocation and said he had no idea why there are military cars and APC's used solely in Russian forces and with Russian license plates roaming in Crimea.

Also read some russian articles that claimed to have BBC as a source, according to them there is some military confrontations going throughout Ukraine, I don't know if it's just another Russian propaganda or there are news like that going around the world. Except for the Crimea overall it's calm everywhere in Ukraine, only some semipeacefull anti-invasion and pro-Russian meetings with the first dominating even in Eastern Ukraine, sometimes they clash but with no major harm overall, more like street fights suppresed by the police. There are no open confrontations in Crimea at the moment, it's just that there are many "unidentified" Russian forces with guns everywhere, some of them have surrounded Ukrainian military units trying to take them without using forces, trying to persuade soldiers by words to take Russian citizenship and swear allegiance to the Russian Forces or self-proclaimed Crimean representative. Some local bases have the elecricity, food and water supplies cut off but local people try to support them and common soldiers of RF let them through despite the orders as I understand. In rare cases Russians threaten to cause harm to the Ukrainian soldiers' families but again sofar it's only words. Overall it seems like the RF soldiers do not want to fight as well however they have no other options but to follow the orders of the higher ups.


----------



## pylyo

aiaiai Ukraine, what's wrong with you...


----------



## oversteve

That's is the black sheep of the family I was talking about, frist of all, he's not a leader of protesters by any means and at the moment some deeds incriminated to him by the government are being inspected, there are people like that in Ukraine but their number proportionaly is as small in Ukraine as any other Ultra-right community in any average country. 

BTW about Russia today TV, two journalist talking, one resigning on air due to all that stuff happening



Also someone from the local journalists summarized the facts and arranged them into an easy to understand list.


----------



## pylyo

Wish you all the best but I think you'll have hard time getting rid of these nazi psychos. Looks like they stole your revolution and took all the straws in their hands. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SB...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## oversteve

Well, I'd say that video is a bit exagerated with the influence of right parties, some points prowing it are shown in that blue picture in the previous post.

also the US Department's official site posted this
President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine


----------



## tacotiklah

So Putin has started committing human rights abuses against gay people and is now looking to expand Russian borders. Where in history have we seen this happen before?... (*cough* Germany *cough*)

Also in the same swoop, Putin is trying his hardest to reinstate the Cold War. Misinformation being spread while proven info gets dismissed as "western propaganda", continuous fearmongering that "evil people from the west are coming to get you", and trying to retake countries that were under Soviet control. 

And I thought Republicans were bad about trying to time warp Americans back to the 50s... 

Stay safe Ukrainian forumers and to our Russian forumers, know that the west does not hate you specifically. We hate Putin. Please vote/impeach him out of power ASAP before he really goes off the deep end and starts another world war.


----------



## MailMan

ghstofperdition said:


> Please vote/impeach him out of power ASAP


Last time 140% of Russian voters tried to vote him out, to no avail 

But, sadly, everything else you said is true. It's also noteworthy how the Russian media tries to convince its own people (and seems to succeed) by saying that the new Ukrainian leadership is full of (or at least supports) far-right "nazi" people. Right after the aforementioned Ukrainian leadership appointed the leader of the country's Jewish community as a state governor - as oversteve mentioned earlier. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to know that if there would be any far-right sympathizers of importance in the new government, such things would never happen.

Russia wants nothing but territory.


----------



## oversteve

Well, it's hard to say what Putin wants exactly, some respectable politicians and politologists consider him simply going nuts 

Gaining more territory is not likely in that case since Crimea is a dotation region in Ukraine, it has near 80% of fresh water, electricity and gas supplied from the mainland of Ukraine and in case of it's separation or unification with Russia there will be a need of large funds to at least support living in there, you can check how the people live now in Abkhasia or Ossetia where the locals got their "support" from Russia. In reality it is a white elephant for it's owner.

There's one more theory why that's happening that have appeared recently. Russia is making it's frotune mostly due to the high price on oil and they sell lots of it. Recently Iran anounced that it will stop the nuclear arms development so that the embargo on their oil will be lifted and as a result the price of oil will drop immencely affecting the Russian income. Ukraine was 3rd in the world with the biggest Nuclear arsenal and according to the Budapest memorandum dropped it for US, UK, Russia and some other countries have granted that they will support it's territory consistency. So some believe that Russia wants to show that such agreement is worth nothing in order to make Iran reconsider Nuclear weapons development so that the embargo on oil won't be lifted and the price won't go down.


----------



## groverj3

This stuff is getting more worrisome by the day.

Hopefully this doesn't get worse before it gets better. I had thought that the world had progressed beyond cold war era posturing, but it seems that I'm being too optimistic.


----------



## oversteve

Seems like the day is approaching when Russia will invade Ukrainian borders from the East, now the Russian ministry of foreign affairs claims there is a need to protect people beoynd Crimea on continetal Ukraine due to some recent provocations caused by Russians themselves 

There were two demonstrations held in Moscow today one to support peace and remove the Russian forces from Ukraine and another to support Putin's actions or basicaly to make war

That is the first demonstration for peace





That is the second and the image of with what it can be associated, seems like the Russian politics are looking for the Nazis in a wrong place...


----------



## MailMan

So... I don't know if this news is correct, but it seems that the good city of Sevastopol wants to join Russia so badly that 123% of the population turned up for the vote


----------



## oversteve

Yep, it is even not 123% of people who are given right to vote but 123% of whole population including children.

People claim they wre able to vote 4-5 times in different districts since there were no lists, bulletins were given to non residents, same people voting over and over... Lots of stuff like that happened.

After all there was no need for any referendum since it was just a show off and the local self-proclaimed government presented the results that just suited them to justify their deeds. According to them 93% voted for Crimea to join Russia however in official poles that were held before all that stuff with Euromaidan started showed that only 40% thought so. If I'm not mistaken same thing with high percent voting happened in "prosperous" Chechnya and Abkhazia again with the help of Russia.


----------



## The Q

I know it's bad to laugh but I almost choked myself with coffee when I read the comically inflated numbers of voters.

In all seriousness however, I really hope the matter won't escalate any further, though as a foreigner I am as clueless about this as the next guy here.


----------



## oversteve

It's not the first time same thing happened before, here are the results of the Russian current parliament election in one of their regions. When you add all the values you'll get 145.5%


----------



## Necris

I got 146.47%, but still, hilarious and unsettling at the same time.


----------



## YolandaSargent

Both sides don't care about Ukraine, they're struggling for geopolitical things and Ukraine is just stuck between them cause it's too weak now after all these events and can't get out on its own. I feel sorry for all those folks in Ukraine and hope this won't lead us to a new chapter of Cold War.


----------



## Dan

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in depth here but there is a simple reason why the Russian government has looked to take over the Crimean peninsula:

Black Sea Fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Under an EU favoured government the Crimea could (and probably would) impose sanctions and restrictions on the Russian naval fleets based there. If the Russian government is able to take over the area they would be able to implement a more permanent base their for naval operations.

It's all geopolitics at the end of the day, i wouldn't compare it to the Nazi's but it is a forced takeover that's for sure.


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

Dan said:


> I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in depth here but there is a simple reason why the Russian government has looked to take over the Crimean peninsula:
> 
> Black Sea Fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Under an EU favoured government the Crimea could (and probably would) impose sanctions and restrictions on the Russian naval fleets based there. If the Russian government is able to take over the area they would be able to implement a more permanent base their for naval operations.
> 
> It's all geopolitics at the end of the day, i wouldn't compare it to the Nazi's but it is a forced takeover that's for sure.



It's kind of terrible to compare Russia to the Nazis given what happened to the USSR during WW2, but unfortunately, the parallels are compelling. Both countries suffered a humiliating period of economic and political weakness (post-Versailles for Germany; post-1992 for Russia); both countries elected autocrats who pledged to make the country strong again; both countries utilized the excuse of ethnic minorities in neighboring regions to annex territory and acquire power.

The key difference is that the power differential, both military and economic, between Germany and the rest of Europe was far, far greater than that between Russia and Europe/the United States right now. Russia is still a middle-income rentier state at best with a weak military that is in no position to become a global hegemon. Even if it wanted to, nuclear deterrence is still a thing, and many of the areas Putin would probably like to take back are part of NATO. I could easily see Putin annexing part of Moldova, though.


----------



## MailMan

PlumbTheDerps said:


> I could easily see Putin annexing part of Moldova, though.


If you mean Transnistria, I think Romania would object against that quite harshly, because formally it's still a part of Moldova, and there are close ties between the two countries. And Romania is a NATO member.

Also, Transnistria is not connected to Russia by land or sea, so I don't think it's that important to Putin right now. In the long run, though, who knows...


----------



## Jakke

The inside scoop from our foreign minister is that Russia now faces possible G8 expulsion.


----------



## Eric Christian

I think the United Nations charter regarding self determination applies in the case of Crimea at this point regardless of anything Obama and various EU officials say.

"The United Nations charter states the importance of self-determination in its first article, that it is one of the key principles of relations between nations. The argument is that a people should always be able to determine who governs them. This can also be connected to the concept of popular sovereignty, which is the principle that a government obtains its legitimacy from the people it governs."

Crimea Referendum Results Put Self-Determination to the Test


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Jakke said:


> The inside scoop from our foreign minister is that Russia now faces possible G8 expulsion.



And Russia's response to that so far seems to be "lol so what?"


----------



## pylyo

BBC News - Ukraine far-right leader Muzychko dies 'in police raid'


----------



## oversteve

Eric Christian said:


> I think the United Nations charter regarding self determination applies in the case of Crimea at this point regardless of anything Obama and various EU officials say.
> 
> "The United Nations charter states the importance of self-determination in its first article, that it is one of the key principles of relations between nations. The argument is that a people should always be able to determine who governs them. This can also be connected to the concept of popular sovereignty, which is the principle that a government obtains its legitimacy from the people it governs."
> 
> Crimea Referendum Results Put Self-Determination to the Test



Well, it is, but there are many issues with the way such self-determination was held - a few to list are the pressure of military presence, no proper preparations, no official observers, signs and proofs of numerous violations, outrageously fabricated results going beyond any expectations such as 123% of Sevastopol population voting.

I won't say there are no people wanting to join Russia but lets do a simple math. According to the official poles held in autumn there were like 40% supporting that idea, the overall Crimean nationalities are distributed like this - 59% Russian, 24.5% Ukrainian, 12.1% Crimean Tatars and a few percent other minorities, the official results or the referendum are - 80% of people participated, 96.8% of them supported Russian option, that is basicaly 77.5% of total population. Accroding to Crimean Tatars' representatives 99% of their nation didn't vote. So even if we consider all 100% of these 59% Russian voting that basicaly leaves 18% for the Ukrainians in Crimea out of 24.5% - 3/4 total Ukrainian population in Crimea voting agains Ukraine - that is absurd.

Also as you can see the only countries that approved the results of referendum are the ones being under Russian authority or the likes of North Korea.


----------



## asher

All that aside, a referendum where the options are "Yes, now" or "Yes, later" is bullshit at the most basic of levels.


----------



## oversteve

Btw there is a great site about some bull showed by the media considering Ukrainian people, at first it was in Russian only but now it's in English so check for yourself StopFake | Struggle against fake information about events in Ukraine during crisis in Crimea

Also two more interesting videos

That is how people of Ternopil in Wester Ukraine act when they see Russian flag, it's one of these regions claimed to be full of nazis and nationalists hating Russians


And that is Simferopol in Crimea and Ukrainian flag


----------



## Necris

Ukraine prepares armed response as city seized by pro-Russia forces | Reuters

Things most certainly aren't improving.


----------



## The Q

Damn it. Feels like this: &#39;The Daily Show&#39; Explains the Crimea Situation: &#39;Putin Doesn&#39;t Give a S--t&#39; - The Wire


----------



## Amanita

once they took Crimea they need a land access to it. that wasn't hard to forsee.
what makes it relatively easy is that the three oblasts in questions have the highest percentage of ethnic Russians and russophones after Crimea.
Russian language in Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## oversteve

Seems like our government at last started opposing Russia, some crazy shit happening in the Eastern regions, to many details but in general the separatists obviously led by the Russian special forces supplying the arms take their stand behind the coomon local people, predominantly some elder women or children, just like Putin said in the earlier speech that they will hide behind the backs of Crimean women and children.

Also can't say anything about the foreign news but the likes of Russia Today show that the local pro-russian people that were as always peacefuly demonstrating are opposed by the armed forces of the nationalists from the Western Ukraine, however it is the anti-terrorist operation that started today with the means of Ukrainian special forces to expell the representatives of Russian Federal Security Service to stop all that mess.


----------



## oversteve

Also some videos of "common people of Donetsk" and "selforganized defense forces" with Russian army guns, machineguns, uniform and whatever, as always no Russian forces at all accroding to Russian media


----------



## Jake

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine


----------



## tedtan

Damn.


----------



## tacotiklah

Jake said:


> Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine





I feel horrible for the Jews there. Why the hell does everyone keep targeting them? Didn't WWII and the holocaust teach us why genocide is a no no?


----------



## oversteve

Don't know for sure, might be some other form of bull, there was one more paper going around there with the same stamps telling the local businessmen of Donetsk Republic to pay 20 usd every week. 

Overall all these pro-russian gatherings in the East are ridiculously small, might be near 300-500 persons in some cities populated with 100k to 1000k people, most of them are local bums, criminals and some grannies and grandpas with USSR nostalgia led and given weapons by undercover members of Russian FSB which is something like CIA in US. These bastards use these elders as shields while occupying local administratove building and trying to oppose local police. However Russia tries it's best to show that there are big masses of "peacefull" people opposing current government, that the people speaking Russian are being descriminated and other crazy stuff, and that the government and nationalists from Western Ukraine try to silence them. 

Also there was a Q&A line Putin yesterday where he said himself that there were Russian forces in Crimea from the very beggining when all that shit started, however in his earlier speech he claimed there were none. Basically Russian president confirms himself that he was officially telling a bull one month ago. Ain't he an asshole?


----------



## Necris

Jake said:


> Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine




So it turns out that the dangerous "Nazis" may well have been the pro-russian forces all along. Why am I not surprised?


----------



## PlumbTheDerps

oversteve said:


> Also there was a Q&A line Putin yesterday where he said himself that there were Russian forces in Crimea from the very beggining when all that shit started, however in his earlier speech he claimed there were none. Basically Russian president confirms himself that he was officially telling a bull one month ago. Ain't he an asshole?



One of the (many) reasons I'm shocked anyone actually listens to Putin in any capacity is that his narratives on these things- whether it's gays at the olympics, Georgia in 2008, nuclear threat reduction, Ukraine- are completely incoherent. He doesn't even try to make his statements fit together.


----------



## MailMan

oversteve, where do you live within the Ukraine? Is there any sh.t stirring in your neighbourhood? I start to really fear for your country, who knows how far Putin will go...


----------



## oversteve

Well, I live in Western part so it's all quiet here at least for now, it's in the East where major stuff happens, mainly in Slavyansk. In some other towns armored people try to assualt the government buildings and military bases from time to time but with no success. Also few hours ago news appeared that the members of OSCE mission were taken hostage by the local separatists and brought to Slavyansk, don't know if it's true but highly probable. And of course many are afraid of Russian invasion officialy starting but at the moment it is hard to say if it will, many officials (btw from Russia as well) claim that their available forces are not enough to achieve any major victories since there are many people ready to oppose them even in the East that is believed to be pro-Russian in it's most.


----------



## MailMan

Putin Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results; Only 15% Voted For Annexation - Forbes

What can I say? I'm not surprised.


----------



## boroducci

So many "good" words about Russia and Putin.
Anybody could say that thier governments are better than Russian?

Stop make scapegoat from Putin.

All revolutions are made by hands of people, but not for people. It's all a political games.

Don't like Yanukovich? Vote for another president. Also I remember, that Yanukovich was elected by people of Ukraine, not by Putin.

Why USA and NATO want to place so many military bases near Russia? There was some info, that they wanted to place another one in Cremea instead of Russian base when Ukraine will be included in EU.

Current Ukrainian government still not paid for gas although it got money from EU.

See no difference between Maidan opposition and separatists on SouthEast. 
First one was not elected on referendum. How they could say from name of Ukraine? Who gave them this right?

Same situation in Slavyansk and few more cities. Little group of people decide to be independent. They even made referendum. 

If you think that there are terrorist, so current leaders of Ukraine are terrorists too.
Both of them, Government and separatists could be legal or illegal, everything depends of point of view.


Do all of you believe that Ukrainian media show and tell only the truth?


----------



## oversteve

We'll it's easy to say so knowing the current situation in Ukraine from "truthfull" Russian media 

It's hard not to blame your president considering what he's done in Crimea at first telling it wasn't him and then telling it's him after all  He already claimed 8 times that the forces situated on the Russian-Ukrainian border will be moved further from the border, however they are still there  He's still keeping our former president and some other higher-ups that have international arrest warrants issued against them.

No difference with Maidan you say? Have you seen people during Maidan mess call for help of NATO forces? Did you see any people in western Ukraine telling they want to separate and join Poland for example? Did you see any people with the portable rocket launchers taking down helicopters and shooting Berkut with the machine guns? I guess you didn't. 

I don't even want to comment the referendum, a friend of mine managed to vote 6 times in Donetsk, even twice on the same voting district  It's just a piece of all that absurd going there. 

Won't say anything about the gas but considering current undeclared war I won't bother paying debts also the loss from the Crimea anexia are still being calculated.

About our government being legal or not - just try to read Wiki a little bit, not knowing it doesn't justify telling bull. The only legislative power in Ukraine is our parliament which was elected in 2012 and is still active, the government itself is the cabinet of ministers which is elected by our parliament.

I don't believe that Ukrainian media showing only the truth by any means but it is really no comparison to the Russian media creating whole different reality of what's happening in Ukraine. There's an interesting site proving the fakes shown in Russia in Ukraine, you can check it yourself StopFake | Struggle against fake information about events in Ukraine

Also I might seem like a nationalist myself living in Western Ukraine however I'm not. My parents came here from Yaroslavl which is in Russia, so I'm myself a Russian by nationality speaking Russian language 90% of time living among the ones who are supposed to hate me and having no problems at all.


----------



## boroducci

oversteve said:


> We'll it's easy to say so knowing the current situation in Ukraine from "truthfull" Russian media



I don't know what Russian media shows, I don't watch TV last 7 years.

Our border is our border, our land. Our forces are placed anywhere they want on our land.
Can't say anything about forces in Crimea. Russian Army was there before. I'm not a president, I don't know everything.
I'm not a Putinist, I never want Crimea to become part of Russia. Could say the same about South-East part of Ukraine.

About guns. I watch lot of videos where ukrainian peaceful revolutionaries throw Molotov in Berkut. Somebody shoot from guns.
Question about snipers has no answer yet. Last info I know that they were not Berkut snipers.
No answers about tragedy in Odessa.
But Ukrainian media and officials claim that was provocation of russian saboteurs and prorussian activists. although there are no results of the investigation yet.

Also one of ukrainian official says that there are no russian and Chechen soldiers among separatists.


I have nothing personally against you. Maybe our president is liar, but current leaders of your country too.


----------



## oversteve

It's not only tv, try to check Russian news sites or communities. 

I'm not saying that our politics are saint by no means. We have a big bunch of assholes here as well it's just that part of them are afraid of people anger and try to fix something and others still doing the same thing being financed by the Yanukovych family leftovers that are now given shelter by Putin. 

Sorry but comparing self made molotov coctails and traumatic guns to machine guns and rpg's is a bit awkward. I won't claim there were no guns at all, but their number during maidan was not that big compared to other self made non lethal stuff. The demonstrants didn't took hostages, if someone from Berkut was taken the worst thing that could happen is that someone kicked his ass brought to the scene and made him publicly apologize. And what we have with the "peacefull unarmed" separatists? I guess you've at least heard about them imprisoning the OSCE observers group? 

Odessa incident is being checked throughout. I don't know if the results of the investigation will be ever publicy exposed, just take Nord-Ost or Kursk sub-marine into consideration for example - many people died and noone to blame. But one thing is clear - the pro-Ukrainian march was attacked by the pro-Russian activists covered by some mebers of local police, that's when all that mess started and led to cassualties. Both forces try to interpret it their own way but there are still many questions to be answered. 

All politics are liars to some extent. The broblem is that extent. Ours in no position now to falsify something big since they are being observed by the US and EU and they don't want to lose their support to be left with Russia one on one.

Same here, have nothing against you personaly but please behold yourself of writing thing you didn't properly check.


----------



## vansinn

As a westerner, who doesn't even speak/read any of your languages, I find it hugely difficult to even so-so understand what's really going on.
All I can do is search, read and watch this or that from both sides, and due to not knowing the actual languages, I can't even follow media from Ukraine itself.

It 's obviously a huge geopolitical game, where all participants have each their stakes, and the various media have each their angles.
The only thing I seem to see is that the majority of Ukraine seems to want to be Ukraine, not merge with either Russia nor the EU. Correct?

Thanks for the Stop Lies link; will do some readings in there.


----------



## crg123

Wow the situation has gotten pretty bad... just look at who's running....

European Elections 2014: Darth Vader of the Internet Party Runs for Mayor in Kiev, Ukraine

Ukraine's Darth Vader bids to lead nation to the dark side | World news | theguardian.com






Haha I'm sorry. The situation is extremely serious but this is just too Fvcking hilarious not to share


----------



## arktan

It does not matter what russian or western media (I wrote it in that order because it is sorted alphabetically) keeps on pumping out into the world. It is a huge amount of propaganda from both sides (I am a genius!). The key word here is "Geo-strategy" and that game started for real during the olympic games. 

I know already 3 sides that have lost: EU, Russia, Ukraine (again alphabetically)
Winners: Basically everybody who will take over the demand of gas which the EU had satisfied from Russian deliveries. Another winner: China -> they got some good prices for Russian gas.

So as it is right now the People in eastern Ukraine will gain nothing nor will the Ukrainian government. The prize has already been taken. The fights that continue are completely senseless from a logical point of view. But national pride and fear is in the game so this will go where it wants to and nobody has a clue... they all just prefer to escalate and see if this presents them with a better situation.

One can read this story over and over in history books.


----------



## Necris

Ukraine: "Chocolate King" Petro Poroshenko wins presidential election, according to exit polls | News | DW.DE | 25.05.2014


----------



## oversteve

About merging with EU or Russia - we are not merging with EU, it's an ecconomical association agreement, some people (in the east especially) are against it overall it is because due to our heavy industry being Russia-oriented for a long time, the holders of which instead of investing the funds into modernisation to bring down the production cost in majority kept the money to become richer, so they will need to spend lots of funds to become competitive in EU. Russia threatens to cease the orders however the reality is that in 2-3 last years before the mess started the number of orders from them decreased greatly and kept decreasing so the production reorientation is imminent anyway.

About Darth - yep, that's one funny moment, at first he was going to join the president election however wasn't registered. But still participated in elections of mayour. There some nice commercials )




About geo-strategy stuff - for all of us being common people it's hard to say what is the real idea behind all of this, there are many theories like the one presented, oil prices going down, NATO bases, Putin going nuts etc, all of them seem to explain the situation in some way however it's hard to tell which is dominant and is a real reason for what's happening. 

And about elections - yep, seems like we have a new president already, to tell the truth I didn't vote for him and can't say that he's the ideal person to suit the needs of people in the current situation but who knows.

Also there is already an interesting story with the elections and guess who is involved? 
It's Russia 

In short Russian news claimed that the picture showing that representative of Right Sector Dmitriy Yarosh leading the elections appeared on central election commision's site. However it didn't. Later on SBU (Ukrainian CIA or FBI analog) told that there were some hacker attacks on sites however they didn't succeed so it's probable that someone really wanted to place that stuff.


----------



## boroducci

central election commision's site was hacked by Cyber Berkut. It's not a secret, CB wrote about this hacker attack all over the internet. CyberBerkut also said that there is USA IT-company that has an unlimited access to this cite. logs and screenshots are available. Also there is information that this IT-company is located on US military base.

So there are some interesting questions and thoughts about independent Ukraine...


----------



## oversteve

Well, it's in case they are not simply bitchin' like many communities in social networks. Considering current situation they look like some mediocre scum. Also foreign companies administrating sites is a common experience so I guess there is nothing extraordinary even if it is so especially considering that the site is only used to represent the available data and the calculations are still made by hand.

And one more time


> Same here, have nothing against you personaly but please behold yourself of writing things you didn't properly check.


----------



## MailMan

I just read that Russian tanks crossed the border of Ukraine. Just what the hell...


----------



## UnderTheSign

MailMan said:


> I just read that Russian tanks crossed the border of Ukraine. Just what the hell...


"We're only here to protect our own border, we swear! Any taking over territory is fully the choice of the inhabitants!"


----------



## Murmel

Well..

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Military plane shot down in Luhansk


----------



## asher

Interesting read.

Sergiy Stakhovsky offers perspective on crisis in native Ukraine - Tennis - SI.com


----------



## Jakke

boroducci said:


> Anybody could say that thier governments are better than Russian?



Yes, ours is, and most others than aren't oligarchies are as well.


----------



## oversteve

Some updates on the current situation here. A big mess if being short.

First thing first, some bad news from today, according to the info terrorists attacked and crashed a civil Boeing with near 300 people on board going from Malaysia to The Netherlands if I'm not mistaken thinking it's some UA military plane, their supporters are now happily crying all over the local social nets not realising it is not  I guess some heavy international scandal coming up and do hope that EU will do something besides showing their deep concern 

Now on some earlier stuff, will try to be short but it's really hard considering lots have happened. 

In the end of June there was a one sided ceasefire by the Ukrainian military which wasn't honored by the terrorists, they were attacking the military for a whole time and accumulated their forces getting more stuff from Russia, to tell the truth most people here were against it thinking the higher ups are going nuts giving the terrorists some time to relax, I guess they were right after all, there was even a transport plane downed when landing with 50 men onboard dying during that period. After waiting for 10 days with no result the ceasefire was ended and an active phase began driving the terrorists away from some local towns in the East. Still many questions here since large groups of them with heavy weaponry and artilery were freely coursing between towns in the light of the day obviously being an easy target and somehow noone from the higher ups gave an order to destroy them, either our generals are dumb money bags or it's some form of a sabotage from the inside. At that time terrorists easily left Slovyansk which they swore to protect till they die from the Ukrainian-nazi-armymen and the inglorious Right Sector  and fortified them selves in Luhansk and Donetsk. The territory under fire decreased largerly during that period overall.

Then some nasty things happened

First of all some civilian districts in or near Luhansk and Donetsk cities get attacked with the artilery from time to time, the terrorists claiming it is an UA army artilery, the UA army claims terrorists do it to provoke people and international authorities and they don't intend to bomb heavily populated districts, there are supporters of both versions but still somehow the places bombed are far away from the terrorists' fortifications and the military know where they are located  

A week ago or so there was a UA military platoon almost whipped out with the rocket launchers like these BM-21 Grad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
the first assumption was terrorist using these rocket launchers brought through the border from Russia, but some experts asumed that the spread was to high for being fired from the closeup, there were 5 to 6 kinds of missiles used and fired from many Grads at the same time which terrorists didn't have, that's how the theory of Russia attacking from their territory appeared. And guess what, some random Russian guy living on the border uploaded yesterday the video of these Grads firing was spread over the internet quickly, the place of the shot was located and it's right near the border and they were constantly firing in the direction of Ukraine. That basically means a direct intervention from Russia, not just supplying the weaponry for those bastards

Also on Monday a civil building was destroyd it town Snizhne from plane, again terrorists claim that it's UA military and the military say that didn't have the flights on that day at all. Again many assumptions were made with the army telling lies since terrorists don't have any planes. However there still things in question, locals say that prevously when the UA army planes approached the town terrorists opened fire with the big mass of anti air guns and stuff producing some heavy noise however when the building was destroyd there was none, noone was firing at the plane, therefore some asume it was a Russian plane as well therefore not attacked by terrorists. Most of the radio locating station in the region were destroyed during the fights and considering the version with Russian Grads was proved it is hihgly likely that it's that way as well.

Also as of today journalists state there already some military personell in Russian uniforms without insignia located on UA territory, just like in Crimea, and our military even managed to capture some already. So I guess the full scale war looks like almost inevitable at the moment.

Will bring some more updates later, also there is an interesting story with our Nadezhda Savchenko taking part in the anti terrorists' operation, being captured by them and a few weeks later found in Russian prison incriminated with some nasty stuff, try to google it if you want.


----------



## tedtan

oversteve said:


> So I guess the full scale war looks like almost inevitable at the moment.



I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully the EU will do more than just talk if this goes any further than it already has.


----------



## MailMan

Without taking sides in this particular business, f*ck anybody who would shoot down a passenger plane with 295 innocent people on it. I'm a very peaceful guy, but this upset me very, very much.


----------



## protest

This can go one of two ways. It almost always goes the shitty way, but I'm hopeful that this obvious mistake and tragedy will quiet things down rather than escalate them.


----------



## oversteve

As expected Russia already claiming that the terrorists didn't have any means to get the plane on the height over 10km however same Russian news agency was praising them for getting those mobile rocket complexes that are able to a few weeks ago. Also they are claiming that it's a Ukrainian jetfighter that destroyed it. Same goes for the terrorists' supporters, after understanding it's not a UA army carrier and all those pridefull posts for their forces able to take down the plane they now telling it's not the terrorists and trying to find some lame excuses


----------



## oversteve

Here's some info from the local news site which is more or less trustworthy and there are news in English as well at last 
Malaysian Plane Crash in Ukraine: Russian Terrorist Strelok Claims Responsibility for Downed Boeing with 300 Passengers on Board. PHOTO - plane crash, air force, Russia, plane, terrorism, Donetsk oblast, air traffic, air travel, Russian Terrorists, M


----------



## JustMac

Is a false flag by Ukraine totally out of the question here? Could they have that kind of hardware to commit such an act? 


Either way, an utterly horrendous act, the passengers in that plane had no My thoughts are with the families of the victims.


----------



## RustInPeace

Malaysian Airlines MH17 reported crashed just after rebel leader boasted of shooting down plane: We warned them not to fly in our skies | National Post

A bit incriminating..?


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF

According to LLVI traffic obtained by Ukrainian SBU it is alleged the separatists and Russian MI have been communicating and acknowledging the downed aircraft as civilian, and a probable accident by the separatists. Many are viewing it as terrorism, as well as a provoking act of war. With the history behind the conflict, and more interestingly with the leadership of the separatist groups (Chechen war vets, among other conflicts), this is not surprising. They are already moving forward with finger pointing mentioning it wouldn't have happened if Ukraine had not continued operations in the area. That's somewhat of an admission of guilt.


----------



## oversteve

Yep, really sad news, 295 people, 80 childeren among them 

No deffinite proof sofar but some facts about it
1) terrorists had no planes so basically UA forces had no use for the anti air complexes suited to crash the planes flying over 10km high and that's what they are claiming
2) terrorists captured some complexes previously and got some of them transfered from Russia and they even were boasting today that that they've got the crew to operate them so they're going to shot UA planes getting in their territory
3) few minutes right after the plane crashed there were dozens of messages in groups supporting the terrorists in social networks praising them for taking down the UA carrier which after all turned out to be a civil plane, after that everyone started deleting them but you know that internet is a cruel thing, hell, there was even a video on Russian TV right after the plain crashed claiming it's a UA military plane
4) some camera shots from the locals apeared with that anti air missile complex kept in the town Torez right where the plane crashed
5) then someone posted a video with the terrorists transporting that complex from Torez to another town futher away
6) at first Russian news agencies started forcing the theory it's Ukrainian forces that took the plane down however a few hours later there appeared two more versions from them and they dropped the one with UA missile complexes probably because of point 1) I stated, first - someone saw Ukrainian jetfighters attacking the plane 10km high in the sky, someone with a good eyesight I guess  second - there should be a Russian president's plane coming from Brasil, it looks somehow similar to the crashed plane and the Ukrainians wanted to kill him. 

these are just some things that come to mind, probably might be some more


----------



## oversteve

Some more or less summarized info, videos, tweets in English
[email protected]: Russia shoots down Malaysian MH17


----------



## yevetz

Lie 



Andrew Romanov said:


> Well, I won't make any conclusions, they are up to you. I'll just add a couple of facts european media prefer to be silent about.
> 1) Leaders of the opposition
> a) Arseniy Yacenuk - leader of Batkovschina party. Which is a member of European people's party. One of the main points of his politics is to exclude Russian language from the list of national languages. Remember - most of the people in Kiev (for example) use Russian as their first language. And a HUGE amount of people have roots in Russia.
> b)Vitaly Klichko - a boxer, citizen and taxpayer of Germany, lives there. He is the leader of "Udar" party. In the list of partners on their official website we can find International Republicans Institute (chairman John McCain)
> c) Oleg Tyagnibok - "Svoboda" party - ultra right (read nazi) political figure. Supports all the violent actions taken against the police. Believes in his personal hero who fought on the side of Hitler's forces in WW II.
> 
> So, plenty of good guys fighting for freedom here, huh?
> 
> 2) These horrible events start after Ukrainian government's decision to stop the process of eurointegration.
> 
> 3) Opposition people on a daily basis have meetings with politicans from USA and Europe to coordinate their actions.
> 
> 4) Like I said, the police don't have a right to use firearms. Who shoots then - who knows...
> 
> 5) The eastern part of Ukraine is against the actions taken by the opposition. People from Krym administration even mentioned they will separate from Ukraine if the government fails.
> 
> 6) A police arsenal was captured and now the weapons are being used on the streets.
> 
> 7) There is a video of John McCain filming Maidan square on his cellphone not long before these events.
> 
> These are just a few of many examples. I'm not defending the government though - it is responsible for all of this.


----------



## yevetz

Well, .... you dear sir, you don't know nothing what happened, happen or will happen untill you get your ass to Ukraine, and you will not. Yanukovich wasn't elected, it was falcification, and there was mass protest in all cities of Ukraine against it. All this protest was shut down by Yanukovich's police.

You can sit on your ....ing gas and sit on it to the rest of your life. I am sick sick an tired of your gas bullshit.

You are another propaganda victim, that will never look on the real things from any other point of view.

Please tell again about "Little group of people decide to be independent." when your troops will kill thousands of Chechnya, Ichkeriya and Ingushetia people.



boroducci said:


> So many "good" words about Russia and Putin.
> Anybody could say that thier governments are better than Russian?
> 
> Stop make scapegoat from Putin.
> 
> All revolutions are made by hands of people, but not for people. It's all a political games.
> 
> Don't like Yanukovich? Vote for another president. Also I remember, that Yanukovich was elected by people of Ukraine, not by Putin.
> 
> Why USA and NATO want to place so many military bases near Russia? There was some info, that they wanted to place another one in Cremea instead of Russian base when Ukraine will be included in EU.
> 
> Current Ukrainian government still not paid for gas although it got money from EU.
> 
> See no difference between Maidan opposition and separatists on SouthEast.
> First one was not elected on referendum. How they could say from name of Ukraine? Who gave them this right?
> 
> Same situation in Slavyansk and few more cities. Little group of people decide to be independent. They even made referendum.
> 
> If you think that there are terrorist, so current leaders of Ukraine are terrorists too.
> Both of them, Government and separatists could be legal or illegal, everything depends of point of view.
> 
> 
> Do all of you believe that Ukrainian media show and tell only the truth?


----------



## JustMac

Yevetz, what's your take on the whole situation? I'd really be interested in some feedback from someone who's living through the whole scenario directly, it's tough filtering the real facts from glorified propaganda in the news.


----------



## yevetz

JustMac said:


> Yevetz, what's your take on the whole situation? I'd really be interested in some feedback from someone who's living through the whole scenario directly, it's tough filtering the real facts from glorified propaganda in the news.



Dude, so much has happened from the Nov2013..... I can write a whole book about that.

I'll try to make it short.

Yanukovich is a criminal who been 2 times in a prison. Hope after that sentense let you better understand where I lived when he was a president.

Yanukovich started to push Ukraine closer to russia, and wanted get into "customs union" (Member states: Belarus, Kazakhstan, russia). Of course most of intellegent Ukrainians understood that one way with russia is tottal degradation and road to USSR. That why Maidan happened.

After Yanukovich left Ukraine, russian troops starts to appear in Crimea and block paliament, and military bases. During this period mr. putler cynically lies that "There is no russian troops in Crimea, this just a people from Crimea that bought equip and wearpon in a military store". They shot down all Ukrainiana TV channels and left russians. russian channels starts to spread info like "Maidan is the nazi, fascists. They will come to Crimea and kill everyone who is not speak Ukrainian language" and other bullshit. You see there is a few tings you must know: 1) Yanukovich sign an agreement with russian that russian fleet will stand in Crimea. 2) In Crimea there is 34% of people with russian passport. 3) In 2004-2006 russia gave a russian passport to anyone in Crimea who want to change nationality (some get paid for it). 4) russian language is more common in Crimea than Ukrainian.
After that self-proclaimed Crimean prime ministed made a referendum. Everybody can vote on that referendum, it was made a on papers that is equal a toilet paper, here is the photo:







You see that you and I or anybody can juts print that at home....

And as you may know when it goes to referendum all country must vote in it. Not just a one territory. (Search for Canadian Quebec referendum, they made it for 2 times).

I dunno why our government not just liquidated that russian troops, but it is what it is at the moment. 

EXACTLY SAME shit russia did with Esatern Ukraine, but the only difference is that they hide their troops under the local terrorist mask. But now difference is that our government start to fight for a territory.

THE END

Other points is that russia putting a big social propaganda on the russians and turning them to imperial shitheads. russian propaganda calls Ukraine nazi and agressor agains russia but we didn't invade them, they invade us. It's painfull for me as for Ukrainian look at my Russian brothers that believe this bullshit.

Dude I am bad on UK history, but I believe the situation is close to conflict between England and Ireland, when Ireland formally has it's independence, but England still trying to get on top of Ireland.


----------



## yevetz

Oh, and here is the another point


----------



## Xaios

Nevermind. Made a joke (and clearly labeled that it was in jest), but I figured this is not the place upon further consideration.


----------



## yevetz

Oh and I forgot to add, somehow they (russia) decided that people in Moscow can vote too. Voting was in moscow, and the same piece of toilet paper, in a courtyard between car wash station and car service station.

Here is the vid, unfortunately it's only with russian language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxfEuN57F-k&list=UUj530SnOewRVPf2s-hW8rDA



JustMac said:


> Yevetz, what's your take on the whole situation? I'd really be interested in some feedback from someone who's living through the whole scenario directly, it's tough filtering the real facts from glorified propaganda in the news.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

To every Ukranian guy replying here: you have completely forgot that your country is NOT united country and NEVER was. That people from the east mostly want to be allies with Russia. They still remember who they are unlike you westeners. All they wanted first was a federalization. Instead of negotiating with them you came with weapons to their homes, killing them. Proclaimed THOUSANDS of people as "terrorists", "scum", "bugs", whatever, I've heard enough of this. If you doubt the number think for yourself how can they survive for so long against your criminal army. You can scream "Glory to the Ukraine", "Ukraine is Europe" and all of that nonsence as long as you want, but you won't be able to kill them all. Want Europe - go to Europe, not a bad choice. Give other people a choice too and all of this will end. Innocent suffer. Russian people will not abandon the people you don't like and will support them no matter what. Not evil Putin, just regular people. Hundreds of YOUR citizens now run to Russia. How can it be if Russia is their enemy? Citizen of my town just recently adopted a child of one of the so-called "terrorists" who was killed by Kyev government, so I know what I'm talking about. 
As for the plane crush - this is horrible. Its ether a mistake by either of two sides or a provocation. Wait for the investigation to end before making any judgements.
I've promised myself not to enter this discussion, but couldn't hear only one side of the story anymore. To european friends here - please read every source you can find if you're really interested in what's happening on our border.


----------



## oversteve

Noone in the world negotiates with terrorists. Instead of telling us what to do just remeber Chechnya and ask Chechen and other people of Caucasus if they are happy being part of Russians and living under Russian rule. 

How they survived against the army? It's simple - the army is not bombing the cities with common people after all like the Russian were in Chechnya, here's a vivid example - prezidential palace in Groznyj and City Administration in Slovyansk after the cities were taken. Feel the difference





Also just try top think a bit about the local "heroes". Leader Girkin-Strelok was telling that they won't leave Slovyansk since they don't want to have the local people suffering under Ukrainian "nazi" army, however when the army began pressing they quickly left for Donetsk leaving all those people to "suffer" from UA army bringing the supplies to the city, even considering his logic and dropping all the facts ain't he an asshole? And you 1st channel of Russia creating the story about the refuge woman from Slovyansk telling about the 3 year child crucified at the streets when the UA army came and his more tied to the armored wehicle and carried through town.  

Here's how the locals are currently supporting the terrorists. Gubarew claims that terrorists have nowhere to go



You'd better start reading the info from all over the globe and start thinking a little bit instead of eating bullshit from your local propaganda. Everyone's saying Putin's a dick and Russian media praising him, guess it's something wrong with the media and not the whole world. Is it ok that your president supplies arms and mercenaries to the criminal minority destroying the infrastructure in the region and killing people? If you support such spread of "Russian World" then pardon me but you're a dickhead


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> To every Ukranian guy replying here: you have completely forgot that your country is NOT united country and NEVER was. That people from the east mostly want to be allies with Russia. They still remember who they are unlike you westeners. All they wanted first was a federalization. Instead of negotiating with them you came with weapons to their homes, killing them. Proclaimed THOUSANDS of people as "terrorists", "scum", "bugs", whatever, I've heard enough of this. If you doubt the number think for yourself how can they survive for so long against your criminal army. You can scream "Glory to the Ukraine", "Ukraine is Europe" and all of that nonsence as long as you want, but you won't be able to kill them all. Want Europe - go to Europe, not a bad choice. Give other people a choice too and all of this will end. Innocent suffer. Russian people will not abandon the people you don't like and will support them no matter what. Not evil Putin, just regular people. Hundreds of YOUR citizens now run to Russia. How can it be if Russia is their enemy? Citizen of my town just recently adopted a child of one of the so-called "terrorists" who was killed by Kyev government, so I know what I'm talking about.
> As for the plane crush - this is horrible. Its ether a mistake by either of two sides or a provocation. Wait for the investigation to end before making any judgements.
> I've promised myself not to enter this discussion, but couldn't hear only one side of the story anymore. To european friends here - please read every source you can find if you're really interested in what's happening on our border.


Noone in the world negotiates with terrorists. Instead of telling us what to do just remeber Chechnya and ask Chechen and other people of Caucasus if they are happy being part of Russians and living under Russian rule. 

How they survived against the army? It's simple - the army is not bombing the cities with common people after all like the Russian were in Chechnya, here's a vivid example - prezidential palace in Groznyj and City Administration in Slovyansk after the cities were taken. Feel the difference




Also just try top think a bit about the local "heroes". Leader Girkin-Strelok was telling that they won't leave Slovyansk since they don't want to have the local people suffering under Ukrainian "nazi" army, however when the army began pressing they quickly left for Donetsk leaving all those people to "suffer" from UA army bringing the supplies to the city, even considering his logic and dropping all the facts ain't he an asshole? And you 1st channel of Russia creating the story about the refuge woman from Slovyansk telling about the 3 year child crucified at the streets when the UA army came and his mother tied to the armored wehicle and carried through town.  

Here's how the locals are currently supporting the terrorists. Gubarew claims that terrorists have nowhere to go - that is their motivation to fight. 



You'd better start reading the info from all over the globe and start thinking a little bit instead of eating bullshit from your local propaganda. Everyone's saying Putin's a dick and Russian media praising him, guess it's something wrong with the media and not the whole world. Is it ok that your president supplies arms and mercenaries to the criminal minority destroying the infrastructure in the region and killing people? If you support such spread of "Russian World" then pardon me but you're a dickhead


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> Noone in the world negotiates with terrorists


On the other hand your Yanukovich tried to negotiate with Maidan. I'm just following your logic with the definition of the ones who disagree.


oversteve said:


> It's simple - the army is not bombing the cities with common people after all


Are you freaking kidding me??? You have artillery surrounding the city now. Everyday 20-50 innocent people die with the rebels. 


oversteve said:


> Here's how the locals are currently supporting the terrorists.


About the first video:
Of course people want peace. So there will be many who disagree that their city becomes a warfield. Again, talk to the rebels if you want peace. There were no direct talks with them since the beginning. Just killings.
About the second:
So we see woman telling Gubarev unpleasant things. But after that another woman says to her "Don't speak for everyone", right? That's exactly what you do. Speak for everyone in your country. Those who dare to fight with your government are supposed to be dead. 
Also, what are you're trying to prove with these images? This looks like propaganda to me. No? Everyone is under the influence of info war now. Anyways, I'm out, this is just pointless to argue, only future can tell how it will end.


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> On the other hand your Yanukovich tried to negotiate with Maidan.


Well, I doubt you saw some missile complexes, machineguns, rpg's and tanks at Maidan crashing plains and running with the flags of Poland for example telling they want part of Ukraine to be separated. 



Andrew Romanov said:


> Are you freaking kidding me??? You have artillery surrounding the city now. Everyday 20-50 innocent people die with the rebels.


Yep, just stop reading propaganda, terrorists bombing the cities from the out skirts to present it like UA army bombing the civilians and give some food of thought to the dumb over the border, which is unfortunately working like charm, somehow the bombed places tend to be far away from the terrorists' fortifications, somehow noone bombed the town administrations of Lugans and Donetsk knowing that most of the bastards are there and everything can be ended with just one shot, but instead you see no terrorists dying as a result of the bombing, only casualties from the civilians



Andrew Romanov said:


> About the first video:
> Of course people want peace. So there will be many who disagree that their city becomes a warfield. Again, talk to the rebels if you want peace. There were no direct talks with them since the beginning. Just killings.
> About the second:
> So we see woman telling Gubarev unpleasant things. But after that another woman says to her "Don't speak for everyone", right? That's exactly what you do. Speak for everyone in your country. Those who dare to fight with your government are supposed to be dead.


It's hard to accept those argument from the resident of the country being constantly in war with locals fighting for their rights for the last 23 years. There was a one sided ceasefire from the UA army side for 10 days with terrorists continuing shooting them and should I remind you what have happened during that period of time, how the plane with 50 marines was shot down when landing? How many other people died during that one sided ceasefire not honored by the terrorists?



Andrew Romanov said:


> Also, what are you're trying to prove with these images? This looks like propaganda to me. No? Everyone is under the influence of info war now. Anyways, I'm out, this is just pointless to argue, only future can tell how it will end.


I'm simply showing the results of "rightfull" antiterrorists actions of Putin in Chechnya compared to the actions of "Nazi-like" UA army so that the people arround can see it and make their own conclusion on what's happening. At least I'm trying to bring up some details and not just retell the well made stories of Russian media.

Also what about Kadirov who told with pride that he killed the Russian first time at the age of 16, what about his father telling that every Chechen should kill at least 100 Russians in his life. And somehow Putin awarded him a status of a national hero a bit later? 

Seems somehow some Russians tend to forget their own wrongdoings and consider everyone else being at fault but not them


----------



## Watty

Just watched the small segment on the crash Vice put together...don't even know what to say.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> At least I'm trying to bring up some details and not just retell the well made stories of Russian media.


There are no details in your post. You retell the Ukrainian media word by word. Who to believe then? I don't 100% trust anyone.


oversteve said:


> Also what about Kadirov who told with pride that he killed the Russian first time at the age of 16, what about his father telling that every Chechen should kill at least 100 Russians in his life. And somehow Putin awarded him a status of a national hero a bit later?


If you like this story so much lets remember how many ukranians fought on the side of chechen against russians then.
Learn from our mistakes. Chechnya is a loss. We as russian taxpayers pay for this war up to this day. That's why Kadyrov got that status. Putin had to negotiate to stabilize the situation. Your forces will probably have to do the same. 
Last post this time )))


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> I don't 100% trust anyone.



And yet you tell us what happens in our country living in another one  



Andrew Romanov said:


> If you like this story so much lets remember how many ukranians fought on the side of chechen against russians then.
> Learn from our mistakes. Chechnya is a loss. We as russian taxpayers pay for this war up to this day. That's why Kadyrov got that status. Putin had to negotiate to stabilize the situation. Your forces will probably have to do the same.



We're learning and trying to suppress the terrorists however a president of yours tries his best to make it not happen. Same goes for Kadyrov, Putin made him a hero and yet noone is questioning it but yet everyone tends to talk about mystical Banderivtsi tending to slay all the Russians and give their 2 cents on the situation not knowing anything about it. 

Just that you know, I'm Russian myself coming from Yaroslavl which is obviously a part of Russia, now living in the Western Ukraine, in the heart of these "Russian hating people". However somehow I don't have any problems talking Russian 99% of time, noone wants to slay me or even hurt me, I talk Russian at work, I talked Russian studying in local universities, I even studied in Russian school here, can you imagine it? Also do you know how many Russian And Ukrainian schools are there in Donetsk in comparison? Do you know how many Ukrainian speaking schools were there in Sevastopol until they were closed by the current rejime? I guess you don't. And yet you're blindly repeating what's Russian propaganda telling


----------



## yevetz

Andrew Romanov said:


> On the other hand your Yanukovich tried to negotiate with Maidan. I'm just following your logic with the definition of the ones who disagree.
> 
> Are you freaking kidding me??? You have artillery surrounding the city now. Everyday 20-50 innocent people die with the rebels.
> 
> About the first video:
> Of course people want peace. So there will be many who disagree that their city becomes a warfield. Again, talk to the rebels if you want peace. There were no direct talks with them since the beginning. Just killings.
> About the second:
> So we see woman telling Gubarev unpleasant things. But after that another woman says to her "Don't speak for everyone", right? That's exactly what you do. Speak for everyone in your country. Those who dare to fight with your government are supposed to be dead.
> Also, what are you're trying to prove with these images? This looks like propaganda to me. No? Everyone is under the influence of info war now. Anyways, I'm out, this is just pointless to argue, only future can tell how it will end.



Dear sir, please be kind to answer one question to me and to all this intelligent community. When did you for the last time have been in Ukraine?

I am asking because things that you are mentined is a lie. And I just want to confirm that ideas of your points is came to you from media or so.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

yevetz said:


> Dear sir, please be kind to answer one question to me and to all this intelligent community. When did you for the last time have been in Ukraine?
> 
> I am asking because things that you are mentined is a lie. And I just want to confirm that ideas of your points is came to you from media or so.


Just to clarify.
Me personaly? Not recently. But my neighbour just came from the Ukraine a couple of days ago where she was visiting her mother. Plenty of my friends have relatives there. And a very close relative of mine is serving in the military just near the border where the war actually happens. Much closer to Donetsk than Kyev is. In the city where the ukranian refugees located now, most importantly. We're pretty much live in the same country if you don't remember. Everyone knows everyone.
And what is the last time you were in Donetsk, Slavyansk?
I've made my point and unsubscribing from ths thread, hate to talk politics, sorry guys. Will be making music instead. Wish you the same. Hope everything will be resolved to the better of both of our countries.


----------



## yevetz

Andrew Romanov said:


> Just to clarify.
> Me personaly? Not recently.



In this case I am considering and asking everyone around to consider everything you said about Ukraine as a lie.



Andrew Romanov said:


> And what is the last time you were in Donetsk, Slavyansk?



Less than a month ago in Lugansk region.



Andrew Romanov said:


> We're pretty much live in the same country if you don't remember. Everyone knows everyone. I've made my point and unsubscribing from ths thread, hate to talk politics, sorry guys. Will be making music instead. Wish you the same. Hope everything will be resolved to the better of both of our countries.



Well dear sir, that is you who posted a lie in this thread 02-21-2014, 01:09PM
not me. And we are not in the same country with you. I am from very similar country with Russian guys who respect my land, my rights and my struggle. And those people are my real brothers.

Also considering your point that you mentioned *PUBLICLY* about my country, culture and people I want to tell you: [email protected] YOU 

And for your better understanding:

&#1055;&#1086;&#1096;&#1105;&#1083; &#1085;&#1072; &#1093;&#1091;&#1081;, &#1080;&#1084;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1081; &#1080;&#1084;&#1073;&#1080;&#1094;&#1080;&#1083;


----------



## yevetz

Hey guys, here is the interesting telephone call capture by Ukrainian National Security

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ff_LTlZZI8


----------



## MailMan

Strelkov now said that the passengers on the plane were dead days before the incident and the Ukranian government planted them there.

What a shameless, pathetic idiot.


----------



## UnderTheSign

MailMan said:


> Strelkov now said that the passengers on the plane were dead days before the incident and the Ukranian government planted them there.
> 
> What a shameless, pathetic idiot.


I didn't personally know anyone involved in the accident but indirectly know a bunch of people who passed away - some kid from school, friends of friends/family etc so to make a claim like that... Do people really buy what the guy says?


----------



## tedtan

I've read reports online from Asian press (and also Forbes) stating that Russia is now claiming the CIA and US State Department brought down the plane to implicate Russia. 

Anything to avoid taking responsibility...


----------



## Forrest_H

2 Ukrainian jet fighters shot down in rebel-held area

uh oh


----------



## groverj3

This entire situation is sad and completely out of hand. Not to mention that whoever shot down that plane (likely people acting on Russia's behalf, if not Russia themselves), if they did it intentionally, is human scum.


----------



## Forrest_H

Ukrainian prime minister announces resignation

Not good.


----------



## yevetz

Forrest_H said:


> Ukrainian prime minister announces resignation
> 
> Not good.



Well this was planned. He got a prime minister position in a revolution time, and all guys that get high positions that time, told that they will announce resignation after permanent president will be elected. So it's just a part of their plan.


----------



## Orzech

^
Agreed. Not exactly a bad thing. I just hope now they won't get distracted


----------



## Forrest_H

yevetz said:


> Well this was planned. He got a prime minister position in a revolution time, and all guys that get high positions that time, told that they will announce resignation after permanent president will be elected. So it's just a part of their plan.





Orzech said:


> ^
> Agreed. Not exactly a bad thing. I just hope now they won't get distracted



I think most of this stuff is over my head, as my one friend from the Ukraine freaks out every time something changes. Paying closer attention now.


----------



## yevetz

Forrest_H said:


> I think most of this stuff is over my head, as my one friend from the Ukraine freaks out every time something changes. Paying closer attention now.



You'd better talk to your government to give us a few Apache helicopters for rent.


----------



## yevetz

Look what I found!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsVyN1_H4Eo


----------



## oversteve

A little update on current situation. Today's an Independence day in Ukraine, the army parade is held in Kiyv, so the terrorists decided to organize their own "parade" in Donetsk moving the pro-ukrainian and army captives through the city  but I guess hostages is a more appropriate word in this case 

































Also these "fighters for independence", "antifshists" and "bridgers of Russian World" killed the honorable Lithuanian counselor a few days ago

And as you might know without the aprovement from the Red Cross and Ukrainian government the Russian Humanitarian Convoy carrying noone knows what entrered Ukraine throught the part of the border held by terrorists and then left carrying out the equipment from some local army and heavy machinery oriented facilities

On a positive note the ATO continues and the territorier are being freed from these scumbags little by little


----------



## boroducci

refugees flee to Russia 
border guards flee to Russia 
surrounded soldiers flee to Russia 

All of them are grateful to Russia for help. 
And you still think that you fight with Russia? 

You have a civil war, and you have something to celebrate in the capital. 
Humanitarian convoy waited a long time for the official approval the border crossing. 
However, the approval of Ukraine's leadership has not been received. 
Your thoughts about the contents of the convoy smell of paranoia and conspiracy theory against Ukraine - the last bastion of democracy in the world. 

I try to stay away from politics and will continue to do so

P.S. If you hate separatists so much and call them terrorists, why you are still here instead of fighting with them with riffle in your hands, Brave ukrainian web-defender of truth?


----------



## oversteve

Please be sure to check the statistics, not the Russian Media made one's but from OSCE or UN before claiming such bull. Not everyone flees to Russia, first of all people flee where they have relatives since it's easier for them, some of them go to Russia, others to Crimea, others to Central and Western Ukraine, some even go to EU. 

Yep, Ukrainian army fights Russians forces as well, lots of proofs online, if you don't want to see them then I guess it's your problem after all, we're not living in the stone age and soldier's death proofs from all over Russia are already appearing here and there.

We don't have a civil war here, part of terrorists are local deliquents and criminals that basically have no way to turn around without getting in jail due to their deeds, another are so called "volunteers" from different parts of Russia including Chechnya, and now there are even little green men without the insignia driving Russian armoured vehicles and what not Like they were in Crimea.

And now some words about the convoy. First the Red Cross community that should led the humanitarian mission didn't get any details from Russia. Also should I google the photos of some half empty trucks carrying goods for you? Second People here are allready sick and tired of your "help" going over the border in a form of weaponry for terrorists and you say something about paranoia. Third Ukraine didn't authorise the entry again due to the lack of details and not being able to check however they've entered without permission - what the hell is this? What about international laws?

And about that last quote - in my humble oppinion fighting is not only firing the gun, someone fights and someone supports the fighters, I'm the second one and since I"m not an army man I try my best to fund different projects and help those who are fighting to drive the Russian World away from Ukraine. 

I'm just bringing forum members from other countries the details on current situation in Ukraine firsthand and I don't really care what some random Russian orc things as long as the the majority of people understand what happens here.


----------



## Dog Boy

Is Russia out of sugar yet?


----------



## tedtan

CNN is now reporting that Russian troops (~1,000) have invaded Ukraine along with what the reporter was calling "heavy equipment". This CNN article claims that heavy equipment consists of tanks and armored personnel carriers, and says that NATO and commercial satellites have captured images of the Russian convoys moving through south eastern Ukraine and setting up fire positions.

The EU's intervention is overdue at this point.


----------



## boroducci

Where are captured pictures? Just words, nothing more.
CNN is true as much as Psaki) I like to watch Psaki shows.
she is either crazy or pretend to be a fool))
Why your white house loves Ukraine so much?
Don't talk about peace all over the world and democracy.
Not sure that Obama and Poroshenko and others think about the common people, when trying to separate Ukraine from Russian history.

If there is Russian invasion, does anybody have proofs or only words?
Columns of tanks, artillery and combat troops too large to hide its move, but where the proofs? Nothing at all, only words.
Don't trust everything you see and hear from your government and TV before evidence will be shown.


----------



## oversteve

Lots of vids with interrogations of catured Russian troops being "lost during the millitary excercise" 20 km into the Ukrainian territory  and now 2 more captured under Illovaisk. Ever tried to use utube? Should I find them for you? 

Here are some satellite shots just for you 
NATO Satellite Photo Evidence Russia Lying About Ukraine - Business Insider

And yep, Ukrainians should be separated from Russia just like Baltic countries, most people here don't want to be a part of upcoming USSR 2.0


----------



## MailMan

boroducci said:


> Where are captured pictures? Just words, nothing more.
> CNN is true as much as Psaki) I like to watch Psaki shows.
> she is either crazy or pretend to be a fool))
> Why your white house loves Ukraine so much?
> Don't talk about peace all over the world and democracy.
> Not sure that Obama and Poroshenko and others think about the common people, when trying to separate Ukraine from Russian history.
> 
> If there is Russian invasion, does anybody have proofs or only words?
> Columns of tanks, artillery and combat troops too large to hide its move, but where the proofs? Nothing at all, only words.
> Don't trust everything you see and hear from your government and TV before evidence will be shown.


You're writing from a country where it's commonplace for journalists who write about the wrongdoings of the government to disappear or be murdered. Your media is owned and controlled by Putin and his friends. Your beloved president even tries to control the internet, blogs, etc. When it comes to "who's the bigger liar", the answer is obvious.

Don't you think it's time to wake up?


----------



## boroducci

Don't forget about how many times US presidents lied that US brings peace and happiness to world, starting war conflicts in different countries.
Are peolpe become more happier at those countries?
And after that anyone try to call Russia "exporter of terrorism"?

I don't trust Putin, don't trust our government. I don't watch Kiselev's TV
I need to wake up from what?

Those pictures above even don't have coordinates, why I have to trust?
Anybody seen columns of russian tanks? Photos, videos, eyewitness testimonies?
Only few strange pictures from USA army and messages of Ukrainian politics in Facebook and Twitter?
Why Separatists have dozens photos and videos of houses destroyed and civilians killed by Ukrainian artillery? Ukraine army is in state of war with civilians?

No one of you never been in Ukraine, and me too. So why you are so sure that there is Russian invasion?
I just say - don't trust anything without proofs. All governments don't say all truth.

ÐÑÐµÐ·Ð¸Ð´ÐµÐ½Ñ Ð Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸Ð¸
http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/mondo/ecco-i-veri-ostacoli-pace-kiev-e-mosca-1046949.html

Ukrainian soldier-volunteer - battalion Azov


----------



## oversteve

Then if you never been to Ukraine why the hell you are claiming you know what happens here being miles away? 

The evidences of Russia supporting terrorists, firing at our army and volountiers from over the border and bringing here the troops are numerous, again if you don't want to see them - it's your problem, if your politics play dumb it doesn't change the fact of what's happening here and noone sees it. 

Just be sure to check the statistic the rate and causes of death of your troops in few month, whole platoons dying due to the heart failures during military exercises seems a bit strange to me


----------



## boroducci

oversteve said:


> Then if you never been to Ukraine why the hell you are claiming you know what happens here being miles away?
> 
> The evidences of Russia supporting terrorists, firing at our army and volountiers from over the border and bringing here the troops are numerous, again if you don't want to see them - it's your problem, if your politics play dumb it doesn't change the fact of what's happening here and noone sees it.
> 
> Just be sure to check the statistic the rate and causes of death of your troops in few month, whole platoons dying due to the heart failures during military exercises seems a bit strange to me



What do you know about Russian invasion if you are at your home?
You are not at frontline, so your thoughts not more truly than my.
You also learn about conflict from web and TV? And you trust it without
doubt?

I don't tell that I know, I just say that you and others from foreign countries know not more than me. I sure. But you sure that I'm fool cause I have different point of view.


----------



## oversteve

Well, I'm not from a foreign country, I'm living in Ukraine. I have friend among figters and army men and volountiers helping the fighters, some friends and people I did bussiness with living in Donets, Lugansk and other big and small cities occupied by terrorists, unfortunatelly some of them already left due to the spread of the "Russian World" plague, so the sources are numerous. No one here claims that all the news on TV or in the Internet are truthfull.

Those who don't see obvious thing are either dumb or interested in seeing thing their way, so it's basically one of two for you don't know which exactly since I don't have a slightest clue how well educated are you. 

Also there is nice saying going around. Woke up in the morning, can't find my sock, shoulkd call relatives in Moscow since they know better what happens here.


----------



## boroducci

you not comment my links and videos. Ukrainian army forces seems to be more terrorists than separatists because of destroying civilian buildings.
Why Ukrainian soldiers say that the government has betrayed them?
Or this is russian provocation?


----------



## oversteve

First things first.

Well, majority of destruction is caused by the terrorists themselves claiming that it's UA military, again lots of proofs over internet and people living there saying so, again I'm not claiming that UA army is not firing in response at all. 

What exactly should I comment? I'm not fond of our government as well, I'm not making them saint by no means and there are lots of questions to ask, lots of pro-Russian traitors here among them and military that should be cleansed and prosecuted, but at least something is done in that direction. 

If you want some point against your videos then at least start using your brain and google a little bit. With a little effort you'll be able to find lots of your local Nazi-oriented guys fighting among the terrorists.

P.S. You say you don't trust Putin but at the same time you're bringing the link to mr. Huilo's official announcement. I guess nothing more to say here


----------



## boroducci

Ahah, man.
Civilian buildings were under fire long before separatists get heavy weaponry.
I don't find any proofs)) I watched many videos, but noone said on them that it's result of separatists fire.

You can't accept any points of view that different from yours. Not better way for conversation.

Do you want USA to help UA against separatists and Russia?

Some more words from Europe
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/25981/53/


----------



## oversteve

You'd better check your sources before claiming that.

Also I do accept logical points but not some random bull from mr. Huilo and his subordinates backed by no common logic.

And yep, I would be glad if US provided help but sofar unfortunately Obama told there would be no military support and, at least Canada is helping at the moment and I'm really glad they are.


----------



## boroducci

please, remember how USA appeared on world map.


----------



## oversteve

Well, I guess Russia sticking their nose into current Ukrainian bussiness has not that much in common with how US appeared. 

If you want to stress how colonists treated indians and that they will treat people of Ukraine same way that analogy is a bit out of place in current situation, also you'd better dig into Soviet history trying to learn about political repressions and what happened here and there with Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, people of Baltics etc. 

And since you're giving US as an example be sure to read about the Marshall Plan and check it's results.


----------



## Talmaci

oversteve said:


> Well, I guess Russia sticking their nose into current Ukrainian bussiness has not that much in common with how US appeared.
> 
> If you want to stress how colonists treated indians and that they will treat people of Ukraine same way that analogy is a bit out of place in current situation, also you'd better dig into Soviet history trying to learn about political repressions and what happened here and there with Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, people of Baltics etc.
> 
> And since you're giving US as an example be sure to read about the Marshall Plan and check it's results.



Do not dilute the idiocy here. You, Ukrainians, are corrupted curs. The most stupid people that I've ever seen are Ukrainians from Lviv and Kiev.


----------



## Talmaci

The real face of "Ukrainians", that's all that you can realize, kill peace people, women and kids - 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6BBEd6LH00


----------



## Talmaci

Against peaceful people


----------



## MailMan

Hey, a person from Moldova! A question for you (serious one, no offense meant), I'm really interested in this: What do your people think about the existence of Transnistria?


----------



## Sang-Drax

boroducci said:


> P.S. If you hate separatists so much and call them terrorists, why you are still here instead of fighting with them with riffle in your hands, Brave ukrainian web-defender of truth?



This is a serious contestant for the shallowest argument I've ever read over the internet.


----------



## asher

Talmaci said:


> Do not dilute the idiocy here. You, Ukrainians, are corrupted curs. The most stupid people that I've ever seen are Ukrainians from Lviv and Kiev.


----------



## boroducci

oversteve said:


> Well, I guess Russia sticking their nose into current Ukrainian bussiness has not that much in common with how US appeared.
> 
> If you want to stress how colonists treated indians and that they will treat people of Ukraine same way that analogy is a bit out of place in current situation, also you'd better dig into Soviet history trying to learn about political repressions and what happened here and there with Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, people of Baltics etc.
> 
> And since you're giving US as an example be sure to read about the Marshall Plan and check it's results.



seems that you can't understand me.

Just try to remember you
American Revolutionary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maybe after reading you will understand.


----------



## oversteve

Then please ask mr. Huilo (aka Putin) to stop supplying troops and weapons to the terrorists and see how long they will last with their fight. Crashing a Malasian plane, destroying the region's infrastructure, killing innosent people and doing all the shit they are doing with the help of TerroRussia is deffinitelly "a right" way towards their independece  

Also one more vivid example from today's meeting in Minsk - representatives of terrorist do not want to be separated from Ukraine at the moment, they want to be considered a part of Ukraine, a federation with their blackjack and whores, at the same time they want to get the funds from Kyiv, they want to have their personal army (basically Russian army) 

I guess it's far from your example of US fighting for their independence from Britain, especially considering what century we are living in. It's more like securing a tool for mr. Huilo to influence the Ukrainian government decisions.



Talmaci said:


> Do not dilute the idiocy here. You, Ukrainians, are corrupted curs. The most stupid people that I've ever seen are Ukrainians from Lviv and Kiev.



I'm not really interested hearing what exactly some crazy commie have to say after watching Russia TV


----------



## boroducci

Mr oversteve. He is not Russian, so he isn't pro-russian, pro-putin etc
The Mystery of the Malaysian Airlines Crash Over Ukraine

Do US Satellite Images Show Russia Firing Rockets Into Ukraine?


----------



## UnderTheSign

boroducci said:


> Mr oversteve. He is not Russian, so he isn't pro-russian, pro-putin etc
> The Mystery of the Malaysian Airlines Crash Over Ukraine
> 
> Do US Satellite Images Show Russia Firing Rockets Into Ukraine?


So your grand evidence for the evil of Ukraine is an 'independent' news website filled with opiniated pieces, conspiracy theories and a general lack of actual sources?


----------



## boroducci

Not Evidence, but other points of view.
Ukraine and the United States do not have evidence that Russia and the separatists shot down Boeing. 
All parties of the conflict have their own version of events occurred. 
However, no one has provided 100% confirmed evidence of guilt. 
Noone still does not provide a record of negotiations of aircraft pilots. 
Noone has explained why the plane was flying not on standard course. 
Where are results of investigation of "blackbox"?


Ukraine and the United States officials very quickly blamed separatists and Russia, and it raises some doubts. 

So Mr. Oversteve together with their government is doing very hasty conclusions. 
Sometimes I think that they eat too many mushrooms...

air-to-air missles or/and air-guns?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNMj-M-GDl0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq_RKMX74ZQ


Results of Ukrainian artillery shelling. they are very accurately bombing civilian buildings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7WBeeDpSE


----------



## oversteve

Ok, I'm doing it one last time for those banned from Google or as we say here - dlya teh, kto na bronepojezde

First of all the plane was flying on the standard course that might be alternated from time to time, that thing was already coverred many times even in Russian news after that beardy troll from the last video you've posted noticed it, also the airspace over 10km high is not closed even in those hot spots where the warfare lasts for a long period of time. 

Second - the negotiations of the aircraft pilots are recorded in the black boxes so basically no need for that if they are analyzed and they should be. Also why should our government satisfy the demands of Russia since there were no Russian passangers there so they are uninvolved, also all the requested details provided to the EU structures doing the analysis and I hird of no complaints from them 

Third - do you know how Buk warhead works? It basically explodes with tonns of small metal balls that penetrate everything in their neighbourhood, according to specialists the warhead exploded right near the cabin turning it into a total mess together with the pilots instantly so they basically had no time to say something like I see a warhead or whatever.

Fourth - overall yes, unfortunatelly for us here in Ukraine seems like EU is already ready to swallow that tragedy like it never happened just like it treats the Russian invasion showing deeper and deeper consern everytime they meet and how they treated the Polish plane crash near Smolensk with Polish government and president dying.

And fifth - be sure to check all the facts that basically direct us to some conclusion:

1) Terrorist didn't have any aircrafts, so no use for the ATO UA forces to use any anti aircraft weaponry since they have no other application, at the same time terrorists keep shooting down UA planes and helicopters from time to time.
2) There's a common scheme for terrorists in getting weaponry from Russia: they claim they've got some old tank or armed wehicles and managed to repair them - and few days after that they get tonns of same weapons or vechicles from Russia, same thing was done with Buk missile complex, a week before the accident or so terrorists announced they've got an old Buk and they managed to repair it, it was even widely announced in Russian press, so basically they've got another batch of stuff from Russia.
3) There was a military plane sheduled to transport the personel approximately at the same time but the flight was canceled due to some malfunction so there's a high probability that the info on the plane was leaked to terrorists but then they didn't know the flight was canceled and were ready to shoot anything coming their way.
4) Suddenly the terrorists claim they shoot down AN-26 in the middle of the day, this was even broadcasted on RussianTV and posted on your news sites but hour or so after that the news appear that the civil plane was taken down, terrorist and Russia TV start telling they shoot down another plane, or they say they didn't shoot anything it was a UA army SU-27 that in fact can't operate on height over 6km  , or according to Russia TV there were evidences of people seeing a jet plane shooting down the Boing on 10km height, such a good sight they have  even after that one of the terrorists' leaders Girkin told that the corpses on the crash-site were not fresh and the plane was filled with corpses from the start  Also they started telling the terrorists don't have any Buk complexes though they said the opposite a week before that. 
To summ it up basically terrorist forces as well as Russian TV started telling all the bull they've could imagine, they didn't even managed to agree on what they should be saying at firts 
5) Check the satellite shots showing the missile trace, numerous shots and videos made by common people showing terrorists transporting Buk complex in that region to dispose of it
6) Recorded speech between terrorists before and after shooting down the plane, these might be fabricated but anyway some stuff like this exists and might be truthfull
6) At the same time no other proofs from the opposite side - some spanish dispatcher who turned out to not exist at all, like I've mentioned before someone seeing a jet plane firing missiles on 10km+ height and some random stuff like that. No photos, no videos, no common logic, only some random bull from noone knows who. 

So basically considering all these facts it becomes more or less obvious that the terrorists "unintentionally" shoot down wrong plane proving that you should never give a grenade to a monkey once again  
Probably the only open question is they were taught to operate the missile complex and shoot the plane themselves or it was done with the support of Russian personel "imported" in Ukraine together with Buk.


----------



## oversteve

And about that last video with artilery - just as I mentioned before most locals saying they were shoot by the terrorists and by Russian forces from over the border blaming UA forces, again lots of proofs there, even that beardy guy says that Russian forces support terrorists in one of his videos.


----------



## KristapsCoCoo

boroducci said:


> you not comment my links and videos. Ukrainian army forces seems to be more terrorists than separatists because of destroying civilian buildings.
> Why Ukrainian soldiers say that the government has betrayed them?
> Or this is russian provocation?



Are you trolling?


----------



## asher

KristapsCoCoo said:


> Are you trolling?



Effectively.


----------



## boroducci

Russia shot down aircraft and than ask to investigate it's own crime, ya.
You can call me how you want, guys. I'm not trolling, I just ask questions, but nobody can't answer them. Everything I hear - just copypaste from officials and also "friend of my grandmother's brother told me..." And when I ask in asme way - you say that I'm "&#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1077;&#1087;&#1086;&#1077;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;".
oversteve, everytime you have no proofs you say - look for in Google, heh)
If you want to tell true story - make your own investigation, not retelling.

US can't stop terrorists from crashing Twin towers, but US officials sure that exactly Russia and separatists destroyed Boeing on other side of planet, immidiately after tragedy...
If Ukraine know that separatists have Buk, why this region wasn't closed for any flyings? Separatists use other anti-aircraft weapons before and after, very successfully shot down UA aircrafts without any BUK.
Also BUK is complex of few vehicles. It's hard to hide moving across the border, but UA know nothing about this?

Obviously, neither Ukrainian nor the United States officials don't need in evidence for the prosecution.


I repeat again. I'm not blame Ukraine and US in destroying Boeing. I ask you to be more accurate and not blame Russia without 100% confirmed evidences.

P.S. According with some info, SU can fly for a short time on upper heights...


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

boroducci said:


> US can't stop terrorists from crashing Twin towers, but US officials sure that exactly Russia and separatists destroyed Boeing on other side of planet, immidiately after tragedy...



To be fair, while the US didn't prevent the 9/11 attacks, it didn't take them long to figure out who perpetrated them. You don't have to stop something from happening to know who did it.

I'm not saying we know for sure that Russia shot down anything, I don't know anything about the issue. I'm just saying that example doesn't really help your case.


----------



## boroducci

Grand Moff Tim said:


> To be fair, while the US didn't prevent the 9/11 attacks, it didn't take them long to figure out who perpetrated them. You don't have to stop something from happening to know who did it.
> 
> I'm not saying we know for sure that Russia shot down anything, I don't know anything about the issue. I'm just saying that example doesn't really help your case.



Maybe I write my thoughts not so clear, my English has to be better.
How long it was need to find perpetrators in that case?
And how fast Russia was blamed in this fact?
Do your agents watch Ukraine more carefully than their own country?


----------



## oversteve

Ok, will do it one last time step by step 



boroducci said:


> Russia shot down aircraft and than ask to investigate it's own crime, ya.
> oversteve, everytime you have no proofs you say - look for in Google, heh)
> If you want to tell true story - make your own investigation, not retelling.


Well, basically you're copypasting someone's thoughts as well  



boroducci said:


> US can't stop terrorists from crashing Twin towers, but US officials sure that exactly Russia and separatists destroyed Boeing on other side of planet, immidiately after tragedy...


US claimed they have shots from Satellites with heat traces showing where the missile was fired from, that territory at that momemnt was under terrorist's control also photos and videos from common people surfaced showing Buk transportation in that region, in order not to make the thread pic heavy just google "Buk Snezhnoe" and you'll get tonns of pics, videos, articles and what not



boroducci said:


> If Ukraine know that separatists have Buk, why this region wasn't closed for any flyings? Separatists use other anti-aircraft weapons before and after, very successfully shot down UA aircrafts without any BUK.
> Also BUK is complex of few vehicles. It's hard to hide moving across the border, but UA know nothing about this?


Ok, one small picture then




Map of territories occupied by terrorists on July 17, you don't need to be some genius to see that quite a big part of border is basically open and uncontrollable by UA forces, that's where the ammo and forces from Russia are comming through so basically they could bring anything through there including Buks. Again there are videos showing Buk transported back to Russia.

Buk is a complex but one vehicle carrying missiles is sufficient to fire, all other vechicles are basically needed for deeper radio analysis one more thesis in support of theory that terrorist shoot not knowing what exact aircraft they are shooting at thinking they are taking down UA military plane.

If I'm not mistaken the decision to close the airspace is taken not by the country itself but by the ICAO, and as I've mentioned before there airspace 10km+ high is open even there where the war lasts for decades. All the civil planes have their identification signals significantly different from military planes. And those signals can't be read by that single missile carrying Buk vehicle, it only shows a random air target.



boroducci said:


> I repeat again. I'm not blame Ukraine and US in destroying Boeing. I ask you to be more accurate and not blame Russia without 100% confirmed evidences.


Just to be exact - I'm blaming pro-Russian terrorists in shooting down boeing and I'm blaiming Russia in supporting terrorists, if the the first is a topic of some debates before the officials take their word the second is obvious and proven many times even by officials



boroducci said:


> P.S. According with some info, SU can fly for a short time on upper heights...


Again according to some info... Any evidences of SU being there besides claims of someone with a deffinitely dood sight seeing a jet following boeing and firing a misile at 10km+ height?
Also what about a direct cockpit barrage damage if it was shot by a jet following it from behind?






BTW terrorists also claimed that the airplane might be shot from the UA antiaircraft weaponry located near Dnipropetrovsk which is 350km away from the place where the plane fell


----------



## oversteve

One more vivid example, yesterday Russian army have taken totaly destroyed Lugansk airport with wrecked airfield and today according to TerrorRussia TV terrorists already claim to have their first aircraft SU-25 taken from UA army  where did it took of and how it landed they do not tell and it's not a Harrier Jump Jet being able to move vertically


----------



## boroducci

it's a fake video, don't you see? But I know nothing about they really have a plane


----------



## oversteve

I know it's a fake, took some random Russian jet and made a knockoff but let's see for a few days if there won't be any info on terrorists' aircrafts and I"m 99% sure such info will appear since it's a common scheme for involving weaponry they get from over the border


----------



## boroducci

let's see.


----------



## MailMan

I've just read that a ceasefire has been signed by the the UA army and the separatists, and it's now in effect.


----------



## oversteve

Seems like it's already over, pro-russian terrorists started bombing the UA fortifications near Mariupol, according to the local city site they also hit some civilian buildings on the edge of city


----------



## yevetz

Talmaci said:


> The real face of "Ukrainians", that's all that you can realize, kill peace people, women and kids -
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6BBEd6LH00



Hey, dickhead.

Show that burned guys before they get there, show how they shoot firing people with automatic guns.


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> refugees flee to Russia
> border guards flee to Russia
> surrounded soldiers flee to Russia
> 
> All of them are grateful to Russia for help.
> And you still think that you fight with Russia?
> 
> You have a civil war, and you have something to celebrate in the capital.
> Humanitarian convoy waited a long time for the official approval the border crossing.
> However, the approval of Ukraine's leadership has not been received.
> Your thoughts about the contents of the convoy smell of paranoia and conspiracy theory against Ukraine - the last bastion of democracy in the world.
> 
> I try to stay away from politics and will continue to do so
> 
> P.S. If you hate separatists so much and call them terrorists, why you are still here instead of fighting with them with riffle in your hands, Brave ukrainian web-defender of truth?



You'd better sit down in your Vologda and shut the .... up, because partially because of bitches like you, that belive in civil war we have dead bodies here. The bullshit that you post means that you don't know what happens here, Or maybe you were here and saw everything?


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> If there is Russian invasion, does anybody have proofs or only words?



We do have proofs, bitch 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6cMd03dpjo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qG1xj4Zo1U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCI2DX77G98


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> Don't forget about how many times US presidents lied that US brings peace and happiness to world, starting war conflicts in different countries.
> Are peolpe become more happier at those countries?
> And after that anyone try to call Russia "exporter of terrorism"?
> 
> I don't trust Putin, don't trust our government. I don't watch Kiselev's TV
> I need to wake up from what?
> 
> Those pictures above even don't have coordinates, why I have to trust?
> Anybody seen columns of russian tanks? Photos, videos, eyewitness testimonies?
> Only few strange pictures from USA army and messages of Ukrainian politics in Facebook and Twitter?
> Why Separatists have dozens photos and videos of houses destroyed and civilians killed by Ukrainian artillery? Ukraine army is in state of war with civilians?
> 
> No one of you never been in Ukraine, and me too. So why you are so sure that there is Russian invasion?
> I just say - don't trust anything without proofs. All governments don't say all truth.
> 
> Ð&#376;Ñ&#8364;ÐµÐ·Ð¸Ð´ÐµÐ½Ñ&#8218; Ð.Ð¾ÑÑÐ¸Ð¸
> Ecco i veri ostacoli alla pace tra Kiev e Mosca - IlGiornale.it
> 
> Ukrainian soldier-volunteer - battalion Azov




Because you stupid bitch that believe in a bullshit, that is why. 
There is tons of videos of videos of russian tanks in Ukraine and near the border. And I know that russian gouvernment blocks you from the information. A lot of my friends from russia tells me that they can't see the content of what I send them because "Roscomnadzor (or whatever shit you got there) blocks this information". So if you don't have an information, and you don't have it it's a fact I am not kindli asking you to shut the .... up and got to ..... For your better understanding &#1055;&#1086;&#1096;&#1105;&#1083; &#1085;&#1072;&#1093;&#1091;&#1081;, &#1073;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;&#1096;&#1082;&#1072;


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> you not comment my links and videos. Ukrainian army forces seems to be more terrorists than separatists because of destroying civilian buildings.
> Why Ukrainian soldiers say that the government has betrayed them?
> Or this is russian provocation?



So you do really know who destroyed the buildings?


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> Civilian buildings were under fire long before separatists get heavy weaponry.
> I don't find any proofs)) I watched many videos, but noone said on them that it's result of separatists fire.



You talking as a ....ing expert, have you been there?


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> You can call me how you want, guys. I'm not trolling, I just ask questions, but nobody can't answer them.



List please, I'll answer any of those.

And thank you for letting me to call you how I want, shithead bitch.


----------



## boroducci

Your status says all about you, man. Carry on in this way. And don't call me brother.
I understand english enough to know what you tell me here. Be proud Ukrainian hero and never write in Russian again. Because you are not Russian and it's not your language.
Forget about it.
And jump, baby, jump, baby. nothing personal, just remembered))


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> Your status says all about you, man. Carry on in this way. And don't call me brother.
> I understand english enough to know what you tell me here. Be proud Ukrainian hero and never write in Russian again. Because you are not Russian and it's not your language.
> Forget about it.
> And jump, baby, jump, baby. nothing personal, just remembered))



Bitch, are you scarred to see the answers? give your ....ing list. I am one of the guys that you calls "faschist". I am not russian, and don't tell me what language to speak, punk.


----------



## boroducci

your manner of speaking makes me sad. I will not even comment your insults


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> your manner of speaking makes me sad. I will not even comment your insults



Your maner of thinking killing my friends, because shitheads as you are supporting this war, instead of prevent deats. So for me you are a ....ing piece of trash. You want aswers? List it, I been there, I can answer a lot.


----------



## boroducci

You know nothing about me, but already said so many compliments...
Good boy, carry on.


----------



## yevetz

boroducci said:


> You know nothing about me, but already said so many compliments...
> Good boy, carry on.



List the questions, bitch. Are you scarred of answers? 
I know that you supporting death of my friends, that is enough for me to tell anything.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

The only thing discourse at this level is going to get anybody is banned. Might want to keep that in mind. This is obviously a sensitive and very important issue, but tact is your friend.


----------



## yevetz

Grand Moff Tim said:


> The only thing discourse at this level is going to get anybody is banned. Might want to keep that in mind. This is obviously a sensitive and very important issue, but tact is your friend.



Thanks bro, but I don't have any tact for that kind of person. Especially when they spread lie publically.


----------



## yevetz

Hey hey!

Here the putins speech for Gaaga's International Court of Justice

Click on a subtitles and translate it for your understanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wqlClRmjC8

This come to the guys, who is srsly taking a words of shi*heads as boroducci.

Enjoy!


----------



## venndi

Hi

I'm against the wars, like every normal people, but in this situation russians are right. What the hell want the ukrains with 10 millon russian citizen? In europe a few times happend this situation, the end will be always the same..., now the russians will "get" their land. Sending people to death is abnormal, I mean this on ukrain governmant...they also know, that they lost these land, where russians live. Sad that ukrain government send twice as much hungarian, polish citizen (soldier) into the war, than ukrain citizens.
This chauvinist politic is not new in Ukraine... not a big surprise that russians won't live together with these chauvinists. If were a national government in Hungary and in Poland, the parts where live these minorities, would also separated, and join to Hungary and Poland.


----------



## boroducci

MOD EDIT: Please don't link NSFW/prohibited content.


----------



## oversteve

venndi said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm against the wars, like every normal people, but in this situation russians are right. What the hell want the ukrains with 10 millon russian citizen? In europe a few times happend this situation, the end will be always the same..., now the russians will "get" their land. Sending people to death is abnormal, I mean this on ukrain governmant...they also know, that they lost these land, where russians live. Sad that ukrain government send twice as much hungarian, polish citizen (soldier) into the war, than ukrain citizens.
> This chauvinist politic is not new in Ukraine... not a big surprise that russians won't live together with these chauvinists. If were a national government in Hungary and in Poland, the parts where live these minorities, would also separated, and join to Hungary and Poland.




There is no opression for the national minorities in Ukraine as the Russian media presents it. I already claimed it myself a few times here - I'm native Russian but I live all my life in the region of Western Ukraine that is supposed to be intolerant to the Russian speaking people and at the same time I use Russian almost 90% of time without any issues, there are even Russian schools in here.

It's a shame you can't read Russian forums and social networks where they are getting proud of their aggresion policy, calling to bomb all the "fashists" with nuclear weapons (btw accroding to them "fashists" are not only in Ukraine but in EU and in US aswell), claiming they will reach Berlin on their tanks within few days and other crazy stuff. They continiously blame US and Obama for they are living in deep sh*t and try to do nothing about it. At the same time they are highly dependent on the Western technologies and goods  

Also what are the Ukrainian government and army men doing? They are basically fighting on their native land against the invasion from the neighbouring country and suppresing the terrorists - is it wrong? I guess it's something wrong with the ones who can't see it.


----------



## Sumsar

oversteve said:


> It's a shame you can't read Russian forums and social networks where they are getting proud of their aggresion policy, calling to bomb all the "fashists" with nuclear weapons (btw accroding to them "fashists" are not only in Ukraine but in EU and in US aswell), claiming they will reach Berlin on their tanks within few days and other crazy stuff. They continiously blame US and Obama for they are living in deep sh*t and try to do nothing about it. At the same time they are highly dependent on the Western technologies and goods



Yeah it is pretty crazy that in the competetion "who can manipulate their own population the most" russian media in general seems to be winning over FOX news.

When you get to the level of manipulation where even Joseph Goebbels would say "Wow, how did you do that?" it is pretty ....ed up!


----------



## asher

State media, yo.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> They continiously blame US and Obama for they are living in deep sh*t and try to do nothing about it.


And the only thing you can do is tell .... about my country and blame it for everything on American forum. LOL 
We're doing pretty much fine, relax. Not going to eat anyone. 



oversteve said:


> Also what are the Ukrainian government and army men doing? They are basically fighting on their native land against the invasion from the neighbouring country and suppresing the terrorists - is it wrong? I guess it's something wrong with the ones who can't see it.


Meanwhile there are like 10000(some people consider this number to be like 50000) of Ukranian people are dead.. Men, Women, children.. Pretty sad actually.
Ukraine still trades with Russia, your president still have its chocolate factory in Russia, the "friendship and cooperation" treaty between our countries works. I've already met a couple of Ukrainian refugees who decided to live in my town telling me horrible things about this war and your brave soldiers...
And Russians don't even now that they are in the state of war. Level of propaganda: "North Korean". Ahahahahahaha.

Maybe you can go and try to suppress the "terrorists" yourself instead of talking BS? Shouldn't you be in the army now? Go kill some more people, terrorist's kids maybe, you seem to like it.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

Sumsar said:


> Yeah it is pretty crazy that in the competetion "who can manipulate their own population the most" russian media in general seems to be winning over FOX news.


Not a chance dude, I watch FOX from time to time


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> And the only thing you can do is tell .... about my country and blame it for everything on American forum. LOL
> We're doing pretty much fine, relax. Not going to eat anyone.


Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming everything on Russia I'm just giving an overview of that crazy hysteria going on in Russian community that people here can't get due to not knowing Russian language. Just one vivid example is praising Stalin by your folks like a great and wise leader considering he's the one to blame for starting WW2 on par with Hitler and millions of cassualties even among Russian people. What about mixing commies and religious content? And please don't forget who started it all invading the Crimea.



Andrew Romanov said:


> Meanwhile there are like 10000(some people consider this number to be like 50000) of Ukranian people are dead.. Men, Women, children.. Pretty sad actually.
> Ukraine still trades with Russia, your president still have its chocolate factory in Russia, the "friendship and cooperation" treaty between our countries works. I've already met a couple of Ukrainian refugees who decided to live in my town telling me horrible things about this war and your brave soldiers...
> And Russians don't even now that they are in the state of war. Level of propaganda: "North Korean". Ahahahahahaha.


Like in every conflict there casualties unfortunately. Considering how many "volunteers" come from lower layers of Russian society to fight that are used as cannon fodder these numbers might be very true. Again a vivid example - news from few days ago about a recruiting camp right in the Russian prison during the amnesty of 60000 prisoners  
And as I mentioned it many times here our current leaders are far from being perfect, there are still many thing we need to change, especially those politics highly dependant on connections with Russia but first we try to do it the civilized way and not through the immediate repressions and public executions. If you consider the trading between out countries - yep, it wasn't totally terminated but the trading amounts already went down 3-4 times considering the numbers of 2013-2014 also the trading is not regulated by government in our country and those numbers are heavily incluenced by private enterpreneurs.
As to the refugees they try to flee to the places where they will adopt easilly, for example some have relatives or close frineds ready to help here or there. Many people moved to the West or center of Ukraine, some moved to EU and even to US or Canada. Some are praising the terrorists others are bashing them so it's just a matter of their experience and propaganda influence.



Andrew Romanov said:


> Maybe you can go and try to suppress the "terrorists" yourself instead of talking BS? Shouldn't you be in the army now? Go kill some more people, terrorist's kids maybe, you seem to like it.


Well that's an argument on a level of an elementary school  and btw it clearly shows that aggresive mentality so typical for Russians. Not all the people are natural born fighters. So instead of being a bad soldier I'd rather do what I can do well to earn the funds and spend them on the means like bulletproof wests or night vision goggles that can be of help to those who are good with weapons.


----------



## oversteve

Sumsar said:


> Yeah it is pretty crazy that in the competetion "who can manipulate their own population the most" russian media in general seems to be winning over FOX news.
> 
> When you get to the level of manipulation where even Joseph Goebbels would say "Wow, how did you do that?" it is pretty ....ed up!



Can't say anything about fox but if you take some euronews or bbc as a base then Russian channels have no one to match  Just imagine watching news on average lasting 20 minutes, 15 minutes of them about what happens in Ukraine, 2-3 mins are about sport, some commecrials and the rest are about Russia like there's nothing happening in their country at all


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> he's the one to blame for starting WW2 on par with Hitler and millions of cassualties even among Russian people.


You should really educate yourself on WW2 history. It's just part of the picture.


oversteve said:


> And please don't forget who started it all invading the Crimea.


It's all started with the government overthrow using foreign funding. That's why Crimea happened.


oversteve said:


> Like in every conflict there casualties unfortunately.


Thousands of casualties. And you personally supported it. Holy f*ck.


oversteve said:


> We try to do it the civilized way and not through the immediate repressions and public executions.


Ahahahaha, again. You have a website with names and addresses of people who are suspected of separatism. Some of them are dead already. And this is supported on the government level.


oversteve said:


> Some are praising the terrorists others are bashing them so it's just a matter of their experience and propaganda influence.


Some praising it's like one third of your country. 


oversteve said:


> that aggresive mentality so typical for Russians.


I'm calling to stop the fight and negotiate with your own(well, ex-own already) citizens and I'm agressive... Pretty twisted logic.


oversteve said:


> Not all the people are natural born fighters.


Sure you're not. It's so easy to kill people by other's hands.

Your new government is a joke, they managed to lost everything in a matter of one year. Way to go. Looks like by the end of this thread Ukraine will be split between Poland and Russia. The greatest achievement of the "revolution".


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> You should really educate yourself on WW2 history. It's just part of the picture.


If you learn it by Soviet Russian educational books then maybe yes, but unfortunately there is more to it. At least try to read a little about MolotovRibbentrop Pact and what happened a week after it was signed.



Andrew Romanov said:


> It's all started with the government overthrow using foreign funding. That's why Crimea happened.


You're 100% sure of that funding or it's just another piece of your propaganda? 
Crimea issues started after the Russian troops began dispatching all over the peninsula from their base during that instability period, even your president confirmed it in his speech a few times already.



Andrew Romanov said:


> Thousands of casualties. And you personally supported it. Holy f*ck.


I personaly support fighting against separatism and against the invasion from the neighbouring country. I guess it's not normal for people living in Ukraine to go all out with the flags of Russia bashing their homeland with the calls to mr. Huilo (aka Putin) to invade their country. So that you know every normal country has the punishment for state treason. 



Andrew Romanov said:


> Ahahahaha, again. You have a website with names and addresses of people who are suspected of separatism. Some of them are dead already. And this is supported on the government level.


That's exactly what I said in the previous quote - separatists' actions should be punished, it's perfectly normal experience. Also bear in mind that if we are figting the locals involved in criminal affairs then in Russia there are similar sites dealing with the members of Ukrainian platoons which are citizenz of a different country  



Andrew Romanov said:


> Some praising it's like one third of your country.


That's a bit exagerated. Just look at the results of the last Parliament elections and sum up the results of commies and region party and you'll get an approximate result - 6-7% or so 



Andrew Romanov said:


> I'm calling to stop the fight and negotiate with your own(well, ex-own already) citizens and I'm agressive... Pretty twisted logic.


And who the hell are you to request us stop fighting being a resident of the country-aggressor. Seems to me your logic is a bit twisted  



Andrew Romanov said:


> Sure you're not. It's so easy to kill people by other's hands.


Yep, I'm not an army men by all means but I do my best to support those who can fight



Andrew Romanov said:


> Your new government is a joke, they managed to lost everything in a matter of one year. Way to go. Looks like by the end of this thread Ukraine will be split between Poland and Russia. The greatest achievement of the "revolution".


I don't know how many times I need to repeat that I'm not praising our goevernment in any way so that you can get it  Also do you expect a country to turn into prosperity within a year being in a continuos state of war?


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> If you learn it by Soviet Russian educational books then maybe yes, but unfortunately there is more to it. At least try to read a little about MolotovRibbentrop Pact and what happened a week after it was signed.


I'm talking about real historical documents you don't have a clue about. There were many things to take into account before that pact was signed.


oversteve said:


> That's exactly what I said in the previous quote - separatists' actions should be punished, it's perfectly normal experience.



Publishing people's private information without a trial is normal??? And after that some radicals come to their homes and murder them. Trial is not needed anymore, cool.
Such a democracy. And you expect someone to vote in these circumstances? It's so easy to end up being in separatists list nowadays.
Say goodbuy to your country then if you think punishing people for their different opinion is acceptable. All they wanted was a chance to rule on their own land. Not separate from Ukraine. And they got bombs on their heads. They won't forgive. God, this is so so stupid. Invisible Russian army becomes an excuse to kill people who do not accept the new fake government's will. And some dumbasses still support this after so many victims. 



oversteve said:


> Yep, I'm not an army men by all means but I do my best to support those who can fight.



You're just a coward. There were 5 or 6 mobilizations. And still you're not 'protecting' your homeland. Like I said, it's so easy to support violence sitting on the other side of the screen.

End of story.


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> I'm talking about real historical documents you don't have a clue about. There were many things to take into account before that pact was signed.


Well then I'm all ears, please present your point of view 



Andrew Romanov said:


> Publishing people's private information without a trial is normal??? And after that some radicals come to their homes and murder them. Trial is not needed anymore, cool.
> Such a democracy. And you expect someone to vote in these circumstances? It's so easy to end up being in separatists list nowadays.
> Say goodbuy to your country then if you think punishing people for their different opinion is acceptable.


Isn't a mass of recorded videos and non manipulated images where you clearly see the "victim" doing something beyond the law not enough as a proof? Also these databases are a representation of the members of the terrorists' platoons involved in mass murder and not the common people. 
Somehow these 6-7% voted for the opposition without bearing any consequences for them. I understand that it's hard to accept that not that many people after all want to get into that deep sh*t called Russia but it's the way it is. 
Also is it a sarcasm? You're telling me something about democracy being a citizen of an Imperialistic country 
I'd rather say good bye to Russia. 



Andrew Romanov said:


> All they wanted was a chance to rule on their own land. Not separate from Ukraine. And they got bombs on their heads. They won't forgive. God, this is so so stupid. Invisible Russian army becomes an excuse to kill people who do not accept the new fake government's will. And some dumbasses still support this after so many victims.


Not separate from Ukraine you say? So running with the tri-color rags called flag of Russia, calling for Putin troops to invade, for Russia to adopt the Ukrainian territories is not a representation of separatism? Excuse me dear sir but you're doing something wrong. 



Andrew Romanov said:


> You're just a coward. There were 5 or 6 mobilizations. And still you're not 'protecting' your homeland. Like I said, it's so easy to support violence sitting on the other side of the screen.


Please bear to read what I have written in my previous posts. I'm not responsible for you not being able to understand it.


----------



## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> Well then I'm all ears, please present your point of view


For example you can read about Munich Agreement.



oversteve said:


> not the common people.


22500 according to some sources. 22500 terrorists in this database. Mmmmkay. Burn them all like radicals did in Odessa! No trial needed, they are guilty.



oversteve said:


> You're telling me something about democracy being a citizen of an Imperialistic country


At least I don't pretend to live in democratic country. You can read the other thread here about the US being an oligarchy. So what? It's not a surprise. 



oversteve said:


> that deep sh*t called Russia.
> running with the tri-color rags


Amazing respect to the country that was sponsoring your dying economy all these years. And ignorance about our current standarts of living.



oversteve said:


> I'd rather say good bye to Russia.



No one is holding your hand. We don't need beggars. Just leave Donbass and probably couple of other regions that will join it. People are waiting.



oversteve said:


> Not separate from Ukraine you say? So running with the tri-color rags called flag of Russia, calling for Putin troops to invade, for Russia to adopt the Ukrainian territories is not a representation of separatism?


There were no calls for Russian troops when all of this started. Check your facts and dates. 
Also, is jumping with the US and EU flags on Maidan any different? And obviously your government is under control of the US now. Enlighten me who the real separatists are?


----------



## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> For example you can read about Munich Agreement.


I know what's Munich Agreement is about. Btw don't you find current actions of Russia similar to what Germany was doing in 38? And you have the balls to claim us Nazis
I'm speaking about the events that marked the start of WW2, not the ones that led to them - German invasion to Poland followed by the Russian invasion 2 weeks later.



Andrew Romanov said:


> 22500 according to some sources. 22500 terrorists. Mmmmkay. Burn them all like radicals did in Odessa!


Why read some sources? It's public, you can visit and check it yourslef. Also part of that list are guys comming from Russia, the gastarbeiters 



Andrew Romanov said:


> At least I don't pretend to live in democratic country. You can read the other thread here about the US being an oligarchy. So what? It's not a surprise.


I'm not pretending by any means, it's just that you somehow you see me pretending it with your twisted ways.



Andrew Romanov said:


> Amazing respect to the country that was sponsoring your dying economy all these years. And ignorance about our current standarts of living.


Sponsoring our economy? Don't make me laugh. Rather destroing our economy especially the last few years starting from around 2010.



Andrew Romanov said:


> No one is holding your hand. We don't need beggars. Just leave Donbass and probably couple of other regions that will join it. People are waiting.








Currently Putin demands that the region occupied by terrorist stays a part of Ukraine, fed and sponsored from Ukrainian budget but at the same time is kept under control of pro-Russian forces and have the right of veto on any decisions made by the rest regions. So basically he does what he wants and we have to pay for it. Screw him.

And probably what regions? Here's the nice image of "Novorossia" expectations in the top and reality in the bottom





What people are waiting here for is for Russia to break up at last 



Andrew Romanov said:


> There were no calls for Russian troops when all of this started. Check your facts and dates.
> Also, is jumping with the US and EU flags on Maidan any different? And obviously your government is under control of the US now. Enlighten me who the real separatists are?


Yep, there were no calls in Crimea, the Russian troops were already in there when it all started  
However there were call to arms in Donbass, even if you try to watch your TV you can see it there.
Also don't you think that holding the EU flags trying to make the president sign a trade treaty with EU is a bit different from crying for Russia to invade the country and take part of it? No? Well, then I've got some bad news for you


----------



## Andrew Romanov

Just a bunch of stupid images as always with the new Ukranian God mr. Putin. This is trendy in your country. Poor people. The only thing Russia have for you is a pity. Have a good time destroying your nation. It wasn't that united anyway.


----------



## oversteve

So long, and thanks for all the fish


----------



## venndi

Oversteve: You had ask me "Also what are the Ukrainian government and army men doing?". Well, do you think it's okay, that your government send twice as much hungarian citizen, than ukrainians? Hungarians have nothing to do with this war. Also your government is chauvinist, and there are chauvinist attacks on hungarian minoritys, I know, but its not just now, its was earlier also. 
What terrorists men, the NATO's soldiers who are now in Ukraine? But answer me, what the hell want Ukraine with 10 million russian citizen? If I'm not mistake, Crimea was a long time part of Russia, just Khrushchev give to Ukraine? Ukraine can nothing to do, these are lost teritories, they can just send people to death...


----------



## oversteve

venndi said:


> Oversteve: You had ask me "Also what are the Ukrainian government and army men doing?". Well, do you think it's okay, that your government send twice as much hungarian citizen, than ukrainians? Hungarians have nothing to do with this war. Also your government is chauvinist, and there are chauvinist attacks on hungarian minoritys, I know, but its not just now, its was earlier also.


Where did you get that info about hungarians? Probably the only discrimination if you can call it so is that mobilization involves more people from rural areas then from big cities. Also considering that most of the Hungarians in Ukraine live only in one region it might be that the twisted statistics are true for some region or even subregion populated by hungarians. Also if there were chauvinistic attack on hungarian minorities EARLIER in which way the CURRENT government involved with them? I haven't heard of anything like that recently neither from news nor from friends who are representatives of the Hungarian minority whom I visit frequently since I live in the neigbouring region.


venndi said:


> What terrorists men, the NATO's soldiers who are now in Ukraine? But answer me, what the hell want Ukraine with 10 million russian citizen?


Didn't get that question about NATO. How come they are terrorists if they don't participate in the fights and they come here officialy and participate in the training camps together with our forces in the Western regions of the country? On the other hand we have Russian "volounteers" passing the border where it is uncontrolled bringing more ammunitions and then participating in the fights against Ukrainian army. Ain't that called a terrorism?

About those 10 million Russians - it was 8 million in 2001 or 2002, now the population shrinked so I guess it should be around 7mil. Anyway why do you think all those people are offended in any way? Because TerroRussiaTV said so? Well, I'm a representative of that Russian minority and I have no problem living here. Same goes for the majority of Russian speaking community here. 



venndi said:


> If I'm not mistake, Crimea was a long time part of Russia, just Khrushchev give to Ukraine? Ukraine can nothing to do, these are lost teritories, they can just send people to death...


You should take a better look into history of Crimea to learn how it was, about Crimean Tatars annihilation and deportation by the Soviet Rejime, how it was populated by the Russians later. Btw same goes for our eastern regions. 

And what Ukraine can do at the moment is not let those territories under terrorist's control expand at the same time building our army from scratch.


----------



## venndi

oversteve said:


> Where did you get that info about hungarians? Probably the only discrimination if you can call it so is that mobilization involves more people from rural areas then from big cities. Also considering that most of the Hungarians in Ukraine live only in one region it might be that the twisted statistics are true for some region or even subregion populated by hungarians. Also if there were chauvinistic attack on hungarian minorities EARLIER in which way the CURRENT government involved with them? I haven't heard of anything like that recently neither from news nor from friends who are representatives of the Hungarian minority whom I visit frequently since I live in the neigbouring region.


It is written in many newspaper...I can give it to you, if you want to read, but its on hungarian language, and yes, not only the hungarians, the rusyns too, so I speak about Zakarpattia Oblast region. The current govenments first step was, that they make a new language law, against the minoritis (I know its against russians, but it will against the other minorities).



oversteve said:


> Didn't get that question about NATO. How come they are terrorists if they don't participate in the fights and they come here officialy and participate in the training camps together with our forces in the Western regions of the country? On the other hand we have Russian "volounteers" passing the border where it is uncontrolled bringing more ammunitions and then participating in the fights against Ukrainian army. Ain't that called a terrorism?
> 
> About those 10 million Russians - it was 8 million in 2001 or 2002, now the population shrinked so I guess it should be around 7mil. Anyway why do you think all those people are offended in any way? Because TerroRussiaTV said so? Well, I'm a representative of that Russian minority and I have no problem living here. Same goes for the majority of Russian speaking community here.


I don't know what is the main opinion in your land about the whole thing, but Ill write what we think about it.
In this war Ukraine is just a puppet, just a little toy for USA. This war is about "who is bigger" USA or Russia. Euromaidan was a planned game. There are facts, that people get money, that they make a trouble. Also (USA)sharpshooters shoot the citizens and the policemans too, and so started the civil war, policemans think that the civilians started the trouble, the civilians think that the policeman started. After Janukovich, the USA get what he want, one USA/EU friendly government. Your new government is under USA politics...Now its time that Ukraine join to the NATO. Now I ask you, who is the agressor, just look at this picture: http://www.amagyaroldal.hu/dokumentumok/kepeim/6usa támaszpontok.jpg .

I read that 90% of Ukrainian citizens won't get in this war, if they became the order for going to army, they just don't take over these papers. This war is profitable only for the USA. The (West) EU/USA just ordering some sanctions against russia, they speak easy, but we east and west european also, for us is necessery russia, becouse of the gas. I don't love Russia, but they just defend their position. Also, what do you think, what would be doing the USA, if the neighbour Canada is joining to Russia's or China's army? Just staying and watching? I don't think so. Belive me, Ukraine can't won this war, just losing more innocent people.


----------



## oversteve

venndi said:


> It is written in many newspaper...I can give it to you, if you want to read, but its on hungarian language, and yes, not only the hungarians, the rusyns too, so I speak about Zakarpattia Oblast region. The current govenments first step was, that they make a new language law, against the minoritis (I know its against russians, but it will against the other minorities).


Well, that is just as I said taking a separate region highly populated by the Hungarian minority that might be true. If I'm not mistaken there are around 200k native Hungarians in Zakarpatya and the total population is a little bit over 1mil, so if the numbers mentioned in your papers are around 15-20% then I believe it's normal. But if you take the overall statistics into consideration including other Regions besides Zakarpattya where there are no Hungarians at all it will be completely different.

I'm already sick and tired of speaking of that infamous "new language law" but I'll try explaining it once again. 
First - it was not the new law, it was a cancelation of an old law that was used by the former president Yanukovich's Regions Party for speculations among their electorate, it wasn't working in the first place, the only thing it did was causing disorder when working with the documents. 
Second - it wasn't canceled, it's cancelation was vetoed for the sole reason of bringing down the speculations. But even if it was canceled the law to start working right after it is the one adopted in the mid 70th if I'm not mistaken and as you can understand the law adopted in USSR times could in no way harm those speaking Russian language. 
And thanks to our former "brethren" from Russia all that was twisted to look like prohibiting the use of all other languages except for Ukrainian one.



venndi said:


> I don't know what is the main opinion in your land about the whole thing, but Ill write what we think about it.
> In this war Ukraine is just a puppet, just a little toy for USA. This war is about "who is bigger" USA or Russia. Euromaidan was a planned game. There are facts, that people get money, that they make a trouble. Also (USA)sharpshooters shoot the citizens and the policemans too, and so started the civil war, policemans think that the civilians started the trouble, the civilians think that the policeman started. After Janukovich, the USA get what he want, one USA/EU friendly government.


That looks just like an essay pulled from the Russian newspaper  
Please be sure to read something about the events that took place here from some more or less reputable sources, on Wiki at least. 



venndi said:


> Your new government is under USA politics...Now its time that Ukraine join to the NATO. Now I ask you, who is the agressor, just look at this picture: http://www.amagyaroldal.hu/dokumentumok/kepeim/6usa támaszpontok.jpg .


Did NATO invade those countries and made them place those bases by force? Did Russia invade Crimea and took it by force? So who's the aggressor now in our exact case? 
I guess every country neighbouring with Russia will start thinking on joining NATO now considering the danger they are in and that mr. Huilo (aka Putin) already claimed that the rights of the Russian speaking cimmunities are oppressed not only in Ukraine but in other countries as well. Same in Ukraine - at first it wasn't even considered but now many people here wish we joined NATO when we had an opportunity...



venndi said:


> I read that 90% of Ukrainian citizens won't get in this war, if they became the order for going to army, they just don't take over these papers. This war is profitable only for the USA. The (West) EU/USA just ordering some sanctions against russia, they speak easy, but we east and west european also, for us is necessery russia, becouse of the gas. I don't love Russia, but they just defend their position. Also, what do you think, what would be doing the USA, if the neighbour Canada is joining to Russia's or China's army? Just staying and watching? I don't think so. Belive me, Ukraine can't won this war, just losing more innocent people.


Pardon me, but it's Russia and not US who invaded Ukraine. If it's not profitable for them they can stop it any moment ordering their underdogs in the East to retreat however they are still supplying them with the ammo and "volounteers" from Russia outscirts to escalate the conflict. 

It's hard to determine the real cause of the war. Some say it's over bringing down the world prices on the oil which is a biggest source of foreign currency income in Russia, some say it's Putin's ambition to gather the lands back into USSR, some say that it's to not let the Chinese get into the Black Sea region and so on. The Nato bases in Crimea were considered a threat as well at frist but probably not now that there will be one in Estonia near 150 km away from their second largest city.


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## Andrew Romanov

venndi said:


> It is written in many newspaper...I can give it to you, if you want to read, but its on hungarian language, and yes, not only the hungarians, the rusyns too, so I speak about Zakarpattia Oblast region. The current govenments first step was, that they make a new language law, against the minoritis (I know its against russians, but it will against the other minorities).
> 
> 
> I don't know what is the main opinion in your land about the whole thing, but Ill write what we think about it.
> In this war Ukraine is just a puppet, just a little toy for USA. This war is about "who is bigger" USA or Russia. Euromaidan was a planned game. There are facts, that people get money, that they make a trouble. Also (USA)sharpshooters shoot the citizens and the policemans too, and so started the civil war, policemans think that the civilians started the trouble, the civilians think that the policeman started. After Janukovich, the USA get what he want, one USA/EU friendly government. Your new government is under USA politics...Now its time that Ukraine join to the NATO. Now I ask you, who is the agressor, just look at this picture: http://www.amagyaroldal.hu/dokumentumok/kepeim/6usa%20t%C3%A1maszpontok.jpg .
> 
> I read that 90% of Ukrainian citizens won't get in this war, if they became the order for going to army, they just don't take over these papers. This war is profitable only for the USA. The (West) EU/USA just ordering some sanctions against russia, they speak easy, but we east and west european also, for us is necessery russia, becouse of the gas. I don't love Russia, but they just defend their position. Also, what do you think, what would be doing the USA, if the neighbour Canada is joining to Russia's or China's army? Just staying and watching? I don't think so. Belive me, Ukraine can't won this war, just losing more innocent people.



Exactly. Next our dear ex-Russian oversteve will claim that you are Putin's agent. I think if their government's media tell him to believe in pink unicorns he will do so. 
The US invasion started 24 years ago(with the fall of the Soviet Union) when Soros fund released new history books for Ukrainian kids and students. Strange professors have appeared in universities telling stories why Russia shouldn't be respected and liked. Non-commercial "democratic" funds were opened all over the country. Money was flowing constantly. The only purpose was to separate Russia from Ukraine on mentality level. Same things were happening in all post-Soviet countries, including Russia. 
These things have completely reformatted the entire generation. Eastern regions due to closer ties with Russia managed to remember their history and roots, western have been brainwashed(to a ridiculous level I must say). After that the only thing to do was to heat up hate and prepare radicals, neo-nazis, whoever to have a force in the right time. To start a war. The US president's councillor expected this to begin in 2004 if I remember correctly. Typical scenario that has been used many times. I guess Yugoslavia has been separated the same way. 
Russia thanks to Putin avoided that. That's why we are called agressors now when we protect our interests and people.


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## oversteve

How should Russia be called after invading another country and openly supporting terrorists?  What really separated us is aggresive behaviour of Russia and not some random bull.... based on conspiracy theories. 

And sorry but we don't want to go back in USSR, it's natural that we are longing to blend into the part of society that is more successful then your country. We already saw the examples of how Russia helped Afganistan, Obhazia, Osetia, Chechnya, and now Crimea. On the other hand Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are quite happy breaking all the ties with you, and we will be some day 

Also whatever we try we won't be able to reach the level of brainwashing in Russia, probably the only worthy contestant you've got is North Korea


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## farren

I feel like I'm reading one of the comment threads on any news website that is on the daily agenda of the poor people working at the Saint Petersburg troll factory to make a few more rubles a day than the "local miners and farmers" driving advanced Russian tanks they purchased at military surplus stores in the Donbas.


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## oversteve

Here's the face of an average "miner" or "farmer" of Donbass, such a great specimen of a native European inhabitants 






Unfortunatelly it's not only trolls, there are tons of people there believeing that crazy stuff and trying to explain us what's happening in our country and why they are bringing us their rotten "Russki Mir". 
We even got a saying here that goes: 
Woke up in the morning, don't know where my left sock is, better call my friend in Russia he surely knows where I can find it.


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## Andrew Romanov

farren said:


> I feel like I'm reading one of the comment threads on any news website that is on the daily agenda of the poor people working at the Saint Petersburg troll factory to make a few more rubles a day than the "local miners and farmers" driving advanced Russian tanks they purchased at military surplus stores in the Donbas.


These people are obviously supported by us with some weapons and training. So is the other side by US weapons and military personnel. But with a regular army? Go to Donbass and search for it yourself. Or try to ask NATO for satellite images. They will draw them for you in a couple of minutes. They look kinda fakey though.
Also you can go search for trolls anywhere else. The US/UK propaganda is far worse(or better?) than you may think of it. Cold War #2 is here.


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## Andrew Romanov

oversteve said:


> some random bull.... based on conspiracy theories.


These "theories" are basically proven facts. Education is the key.



oversteve said:


> blend into the part of society that is more successful then your country.


Ukraine have nothing to offer to this society at this point so they don't have any reasons to welcome your people. Wait 50 years when your kids will pay off your IMF debts first. 
Logic, just use it, it's helpful.



oversteve said:


> We already saw the examples of how Russia helped Afganistan, Obhazia, Osetia, Chechnya, and now Crimea.


At least now you know the names of some regions.
Ok, ok, I'm leaving, say hello to Europe from me. And also to that unicorn you see now


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## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> These "theories" are basically proven facts. Education is the key.


If you listen to Russian media then may be yes, they are so educative 



Andrew Romanov said:


> Ukraine have nothing to offer to this society at this point so they don't have any reasons to welcome your people. Wait 50 years when your kids will pay off your IMF debts first.
> Logic, just use it, it's helpful.


The thing we have to offer to Europe that even a narrow minded person that you are can clearly see is our consumtion market, 40+mil extra people is no joke  And believe they would be glad if those 40+mil have funds to buy that stuff improted from EU therefore having another successful country is of benefit for them. 
I have no illusion of Ukraine joining EU in the nearest decade or two but fullfilling the trade treaty making the customs' obsolete would be of great benefit for both of sides.



Andrew Romanov said:


> At least now you know the names of some regions.
> Ok, ok, I'm leaving, say hello to Europe from me. And also to that unicorn you see now


Seems like you already left 3 or 4 times, just like Scoprions going on with the one last final tour once again


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## venndi

oversteve: you can laughing about my comment, but these are FACTS(sharpshooters, and giving money to hooligans to making trouble). You hadn't answer me...what is your goal with 7-8 million russians? See, on the other hand, Kosovo was supported 100% by the EU and the USA, but now in this situation won't they support, but the things are very similiar, and don't say me please, that Russia support these peoples, yes, Putin supported these people, becouse the army, weapons are in Ukrainians hand...so, it was necessery. If i'm not mistake, in Donbass and in Crimea was a legitim elections, and the result was 90% for separating...it is their choice, and they have right if they won't live under chauvinist illegitim government.

About NATO, when the SSSR fell apart, then were an agreement, that the former SSSR countries and the east-block countries(like Hungary, Slovakia, Poland etc) won't join to the NATO, now look at the map again, and see who is a provocator and agressor. America is laughing about this situation, they will benefit, and Europe, Ukraine, Russia sucks, but mostly Ukraine.
I read that the 2 main reason for protest at euromaidan was, the poorness (of course) and, that Janukovich said, that Ukraine won't join to the EU. The second thing was a reason why had the USA eliminated the Russian friendly Janukovich. If you think, that the USA help for you just becouse the USA is on highest moral in the world, then you are blind.

About EU: If the protesters were that night on the street, becouse Janukovich said, that Ukraine won't join to the EU, I can also say, that these people are blind. In Hungary 80% of the people want exit from the EU, but now its won't be an easy thing(our government had make the first steps to exit from this monopol situation, and open more economically to Russia, Turkey...). EU don't help us, just give sanction for everything, our economy is under ground, everithing is privatisated...nothing has changed, just the debt has rised up, so we can pay forever. The only good thing in EU is, that you don't need to wait at border, you can easy to travel, if you have a money haha...and second good "thing" is, that you can leave your country, and go to the west EU, but its a bad thing for every country, of corse not bad for Germany and England...About manufacturers who are in Hungary, they are not the Santa Claus, they won't give you a payment like in Germany. You should look at twice where you are going.


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## oversteve

Andrew Romanov said:


> These people are obviously supported by us with some weapons and training. So is the other side by US weapons and military personnel. But with a regular army? Go to Donbass and search for it yourself. Or try to ask NATO for satellite images. They will draw them for you in a couple of minutes. They look kinda fakey though.
> Also you can go search for trolls anywhere else. The US/UK propaganda is far worse(or better?) than you may think of it. Cold War #2 is here.


Some weapons you say? Here's an outdated list from mid September with proofs on some of those who are not there and their weaponry  
Proofs of Russian Troops Invasion in Ukraine

Russian Regular troops are mostly presented with the leading personel and artilery. Those who are used as cannon fodder in direct fights mostly are remains of local scum and those gastarbeiters coming from the outskirts of Russia like the one in the picture.


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## oversteve

venndi said:


> oversteve: you can laughing about my comment, but these are FACTS(sharpshooters, and giving money to hooligans to making trouble).


What FACTS? Hooligans getting money for trouble were part of antimaidan, that pro-russian force of skum hired to beat people, that is a fact and there are proofs of it seen everywhere. At the same time I'm not claiming that all the participants of Euromaidan weren't involved with money and that that force was not used by the politics from opposition to their benefit. Many people involved there were for there personal beliefs, someone was naive thinking we will start living like in EU immediately and someone with more realistic views thought that it will lead to positive changes in the country. 
There are no facts about the origin of shooters at the moment. There was some talk on the phone of EU representatives and one of them was implying that snipers MIGHT be from EU, Russian media took it and twisted like they knew the snipers are from EU for sure. At the momemnt there is also a version those snipers were from Russia.



venndi said:


> You hadn't answer me...what is your goal with 7-8 million russians? See, on the other hand, Kosovo was supported 100% by the EU and the USA, but now in this situation won't they support, but the things are very similiar, and don't say me please, that Russia support these peoples, yes, Putin supported these people, becouse the army, weapons are in Ukrainians hand...so, it was necessery. If i'm not mistake, in Donbass and in Crimea was a legitim elections, and the result was 90% for separating...it is their choice, and they have right if they won't live under chauvinist illegitim government.


And what should be our goal? I'm a typical representative of Russian minority freely speking Russian where I want, I don't feel opressed in any way and that my right for national identification are somehow lessened. Same goes for the most of those 7-8mil people. Of course there are exceptions to that, mostly people over the age of 40-50 dreaming of bringing back USSR not being able to find their place in current society and some teens that got under their bad influence.
I won't say anything about the Balcans since I'm not that well versed in what happened there. 
And unfortunately you're mistaken about those legitimate elections. Take Crimea for example - no official observers from other countries besides some members of the Ultra-right parties of EU supporting Huilo's policy, shady voting procedure under the guns of Russian forces that already invaded the land, shady voting bulletins printed on an average laser printers with no watermarks, shady results with 95% total of electorate voting that turned out to be near 17% in the end and that's according to the official Russian presidential human rights watch 
Same goes for the "referendum" in Donbass



venndi said:


> About NATO, when the SSSR fell apart, then were an agreement, that the former SSSR countries and the east-block countries(like Hungary, Slovakia, Poland etc) won't join to the NATO, now look at the map again, and see who is a provocator and agressor. America is laughing about this situation, they will benefit, and Europe, Ukraine, Russia sucks, but mostly Ukraine.
> I read that the 2 main reason for protest at euromaidan was, the poorness (of course) and, that Janukovich said, that Ukraine won't join to the EU. The second thing was a reason why had the USA eliminated the Russian friendly Janukovich. If you think, that the USA help for you just becouse the USA is on highest moral in the world, then you are blind.
> 
> About EU: If the protesters were that night on the street, becouse Janukovich said, that Ukraine won't join to the EU, I can also say, that these people are blind. In Hungary 80% of the people want exit from the EU, but now its won't be an easy thing(our government had make the first steps to exit from this monopol situation, and open more economically to Russia, Turkey...). EU don't help us, just give sanction for everything, our economy is under ground, everithing is privatisated...nothing has changed, just the debt has rised up, so we can pay forever. The only good thing in EU is, that you don't need to wait at border, you can easy to travel, if you have a money haha...and second good "thing" is, that you can leave your country, and go to the west EU, but its a bad thing for every country, of corse not bad for Germany and England...About manufacturers who are in Hungary, they are not the Santa Claus, they won't give you a payment like in Germany. You should look at twice where you are going.



Again thut just shows how shallow is your knowledge of what's happening here. Please try to go a little bit deeper into it. We weren't going to join the EU, we were going to sign a trade treaty, can you feel the difference?


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## Tuned

It is a sad fact that a few guys that take care of what's happening are talking to an retaded bot.
Bot, because he's not taking arguments, only repeats one unreal comment over another.
Retarded, because he's doing it in the wrong place. It is absolutely clear that the three persons that pay attention are all from East Europe.


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## Tuned

It is a sad fact that a few guys that take care of what's happening are talking to an retaded bot.
Bot, because he's not taking arguments, only repeats one unreal comment over another.
Retarded, because he's doing it in the wrong place. It is absolutely clear that the three persons that pay attention are all from East Europe.


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