# Dear Ibanez...where's...?



## OmegaSlayer (Jun 18, 2015)

I was wondering what happened to certain guitar series that Ibanez discontinued.
I could mention the X series with the Xyphos available only as an Iron Label, the Falchion completely discontinued.
What's the problem? Is it really the extreme shape or probably the fact that I'm going to buy a guitar that is "just" worth its price?
I've been gasing a lot for a Falchion, but really, buying for around  300,00 a guitar with a bad bridge, and bad pick-ups, barely acceptable quality of woods and probably an overall low attention to detail prevents me to fork even that low amount of money.
A Falchion with a good version of the Edge, solid pickups (BKP or Seymour Duncan for a change), ebony fretboard and stuff like this would be more interesting.

Then there's the 540pII which is a total blast from the past, seriously cool looking guitar, but Ibanez never tried a reissue to gauge the market's interest.

And finally the biggest question mark of the thread.
Where's the RGA series?
That's an incredible cool looking series, maybe Ibanez's best for my likings, but again, imho, the market has been gauged badly with those models.
Mostly Premium, 7 only with fixed bridges, no reverse headstocks.
Few options that imho killed the interest for the series.
C'mon, how many people wanted that cool looking Broderick that never happened?
Why not change the design just slightly and drop it on the market even without an attached sig?

It's likely 2-3 years that Ibanez doesn't manage to drop a guitar which I'm going absolutely crazy with, if you want the fretboard without dots, you can only have it with a fixed bridge (just a made up example), reverse headstock is always just a dream, and stuff like that 

So, why Ibanez seems so detached from what people like?


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## A-Branger (Jun 18, 2015)

because sales tell them thats what people want?

I know, it is a fine line between, releasing a guitar with "safe, basic" specs and colors, as those would "sale more", but again that is the reason people wont buy them in the first place.

the X series, is prob bit more niche market, but I do agree than the RGA series has a LOT of potential but they keep releasing them with wrong specs/colors, like plain black

that white Chris B was beautiful, and the first LACS from Jake B with the grey/white scheme, they looked amazing.

IMO there is a good market for RGAs, jsut need good color/wood choices. How amazing an RGA would look with a nice flamed or quilt top. Think about the Jackson Misha due soon....

also, enough with the boring dots necks, nothing says "entry level guitar" more than that. Just me, but a nice guitar with standard dots, just turns me off. I much rather side dots, plain board, gost shark inlays (not the full size ones), block inlays, etc... just not dots on the high end stuff


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 18, 2015)

A-Branger said:


> but I do agree than the RGA series has a LOT of potential but they keep releasing them with wrong specs/colors, like plain black
> 
> IMO there is a good market for RGAs, jsut need good color/wood choices. How amazing an RGA would look with a nice flamed or quilt top. Think about the Jackson Misha due soon....


 
You mean like the RGA321 and RGA420Z?


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 18, 2015)

Yeah, I'm one of the guys that doesn't want to see centered dots on high end stuff, though I can like offset dots.

That guitar Bloody, in my eyes is bad, not matching headstock and centered dots.
Remove the dots, match the headstock and that one is killer.
That's exactly what I meant, some things completely kills the gas.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Jun 18, 2015)

people have been wanting more reverse head stocks for as long as I can remember...


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## A-Branger (Jun 18, 2015)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Yeah, I'm one of the guys that doesn't want to see centered dots on high end stuff, though I can like offset dots.
> 
> That guitar Bloody, in my eyes is bad, not matching headstock and centered dots.
> Remove the dots, match the headstock and that one is killer.
> That's exactly what I meant, some things completely kills the gas.



my point too. Being a that one a prestige it looks bad having a "generic looking" neck (dots-black headstock)


but yeah, didnt knew they made one in blue at one point. I only remember black ones and the trans-black with black burst one. Plus the ones remember were the one with the ibanez imz emg-kinda looking pickups with the EQ switch.

but yeah, something amon those lines, just need bit of fine tuning. For some reason I love the jackson, but this one had some "meh" factor to me. not sure if its the neck, the tone of blue, or the proportion of the guitar, hardware...... maybe it needs a 3+3, or 4+3 headstock 

did a quick image search in google for RGAs, cant really find one that I like like appart from the Jake B custom, and Chris B ones.... really dig the Chris B cutaways on the horns tho


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 18, 2015)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> people have been wanting more reverse head stocks for as long as I can remember...



I wonder if there's some strange manufacturing problem we're not aware of so that the reverse headstock must be so rare.
In my head they're just lefty necks with reverse logos, but maybe I'm wrong.

I think Ibby should run every model at 90% of production with regular headstock and 10% with reverse and see what happens.


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## Edika (Jun 18, 2015)

One main issue with non solid colours for Ibanez is the Basswood bodies. There are some Premium models that have transparent colours with Basswood bodies and a maple cap plus veneer but I haven't seen one in person to see how they look.

Reverse headstocks have been used in some models and if I remember the Iron Label Xiphos has one. I think they're a bit stuck in the entry level aesthetic and a bit of the bad part of the 80's. The Rosewood boards they use on their cheaper models, while not necessarily bad quality woods, they are just not aesthetically pleasing.

Personally I have no problems with centered dots on high end guitars. The no inlay fretboard is not easy to navigate, even with side dots. Offset dots are nice but I don't see any improvement in perceived quality. When we go to more extravagant inlays they need to be really well done and the material not to look cheap. Nothing worse than block inlays made from whatever leftover plastic was left in the shop or shark tooth inlays filled with filler all around.

What I'm trying to say is that you can have a classic looking guitar that gives that high end feel but have better looking guitars that feel cheap. One example is the premium line. The guitars might be good, they might sound great and be very well built but even with the exotic woods and matching headstocks they're using on limited models they still look cheap.

The prestige line (over a certain price tag) and the J custom however don't give that vibe at all, even with the black chrome hardware.

EDIT: The new Iron Label Xiphos looks bad ass and really slick, even if it's just a black guitar. It might actually be the opposite than their usual stuff, a guitar that looks expensive but might not be that high quality as Iron labels seem to be below the Premium line in build quality.


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## Neilzord (Jun 18, 2015)

that line built for that shop in Japan should be made into a production model. 

26.5" scale and Reversed headstock. Yes please!!! Just make it into the prestige range, or at least premium!


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## Badside (Jun 18, 2015)

And where are the affordable tremolo equipped 7-strings?
There is no 7420 in Canada, meaning I need to get at least a 927QZMZ which is 1399$CAD!!!!
And all that money for... the same trem that used to be on the Standard series (EZ-II) but is getting phased out to justify the extra cost of the Premium series. The only real improvement (beside the fancy top) is the IBZ-Dimarzio pickups that I'd be swapping anyway. 

Ibanez, I like you, but you are forcing me into the hands of Schecter and Jackson


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## ThePIGI King (Jun 18, 2015)

Dear Ibanez,

Where is the Premium series in the U.S.A? It has amazing looking guitars with (apparently) better quality than the Standards.


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## Vrollin (Jun 18, 2015)

A-Branger said:


> because sales tell them thats what people want?
> 
> I know, it is a fine line between, releasing a guitar with "safe, basic" specs and colors, as those would "sale more", but again that is the reason people wont buy them in the first place.
> 
> ...



So what you are asking for is a rerelease of the RGA72QME....?




Has a matching headstock too....


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## A-Branger (Jun 18, 2015)

yes... maybe on a different color, but yeah thats the concept it should had stayed with a nice clean fretboard and matching headstock too  . only thing to make me happier would have been binding on the neck too

I do like the pickup rings on this one. Maybe would look best with the chrome EMGs. or passive ones




Bloody_Inferno said:


> You mean like the RGA420Z?



the pic didnt open before, now I finally see it.... but yes, same cool concept with the body binding too. Not sure if I like it better with pickup rings, but that pic def looks way better than other pics, even when I google that model :/ maybe is one of those things that in person look even better


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## A-Branger (Jun 18, 2015)

also to keep the topic more general.

Dear Ibanez, where's.....

premium SR bass models with better tops for countries other than US. I know wood looks cool on bass, but please another wood color rather than "brown brown", give us a different shade, clearer, or maybe some nice translucid wood colors like the 1405

also thanks for making the sr buckeye blur. such a beautifull instrument..... but also thanks for the ridiculous un-reachable high price for just a better looking top

also would be nice something different for the prestige SR too.... its been aaaaaages with the same two options, time to mix things up 


aslo pleeaaaaaseee a BTB in 34" and 16-17mm spacing....... almost like the btb33 but in standard 5 string tuning



....I ve been following up Ibanez for years waiting to get a new SR "top of the range" to replace my Ibanez 5 string I ve played for 14 years and sinse my first 4 string was an SR I wanted to come back to it. I waited for releases every year, every NAMM post, and every time I get disappointed, sometimes I get used to it and slowly start develop GAS for one of the models, but they never fully speak to me.... For now the btb33 its an almost spot on on my liking, and after try one Im in love... planing to adapt it to play regular BEADG... just need to start saving for it, unless Ibanez releases something better for my likes


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jun 18, 2015)

More Prestige models with blank ebony or maple boards, offset dots even, and matching head stocks would be really nice.

They're getting better about it, but they still really need to give the rosewood boards with dots a rest.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 18, 2015)

Yeah, non matching headstocks on Prestige are quite a bummer.
On some instruments like the RG2228GK is even more silly since the body is Galaxy Black and the headstock just Black.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 18, 2015)

Folks don't seem to understand how it works. 

We, guitarists, are not Ibanez's customers. In fact that's not how any brand you buy via retailers works. 

The distributors/importers and to a lesser extent their customers and Ibanez will make whatever they want, literally anything, as long as the distributors, importers, and dealers front the cost via a minimum order quantity. 

This is most apparent with models offered in different regions. That's not Ibanez's doing, it's the importers. The only series that Ibanez has ever "location locked" has been the J.Customs, and it was only because large US and EU retailers stopped putting in decent orders. 

If you want something, tell dealers who will then tell distributors who will then order them from Ibanez. 

Ibanez could make your favorite guitar ever, but if distributors don't think they can sell them they won't order them, and thus the guitars won't get out there. 

At the end of the day models get discontinued, not because they didn't just sell well, but because they sold terribly and the distributors had to take a hit on it which minimizes Ibanez's ability to negotiate with them. 

Those RGAs and RGTs everyone always talks about sold miserably. They were available at a discount for nearly a year before they were all sold. The X-Series? Same thing. Once the artists abandoned them and the sales tanked they were harder to move, so distributors stopped ordering. Why did they drop the inlays other than dots on the Prestige line? Because dots sold better. 

Ibanez does have the ability to make "unique" models, and have a ton of firsts under their belts, and that's entirely because they're able to negotiate with importers based on successful models. 

Also, I think a lot of folks want decidedly non-Ibanez guitars just with an Ibanez logo for some reason. The Ibanez formula has pretty much always been basswood/maple/rosewood with often subdued aesthetics. Their best selling, longest running models fit that bill (RG550/RG1550/RG655).


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jun 18, 2015)

I understand how that all works Max, you explained it before in another thread. Thanks btw.

I think Ibanez has gotten the message. Their 2015 offerings reflect that I think. Maybe they're trying to see how well all these standard series/Iron Labels with blank boards, body bindings, and different finishes sell and put more of those features to the Prestige line if they do really well? 

Maybe? Idk, hopefully.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 18, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Those RGAs and RGTs everyone always talks about sold miserably. They were available at a discount for nearly a year before they were all sold. The X-Series? Same thing. Once the artists abandoned them and the sales tanked they were harder to move, so distributors stopped ordering. Why did they drop the inlays other than dots on the Prestige line? Because dots sold better.


 
And this is exactly why I get amused with every post about bringing back the RGAs. If anything, they had quite a good run. A few Prestige, Standard and even Gio models, both hardtail and trem, and quite a few non black colours as well. At the very least, there's always the Jake Bowen sig. 

As for the X-Series, the Xiphos was definitely a cool instrument. But once Muhammad Suicmez decided to disappear off the musical earth, so did the popularity of the instrument. All the other major users have veered off the shape as well. Those 3 'unique' shapes? Obvious answer. I can even use the reaction on this forum as an example of how that went. The majority hated them and wanted more RGs instead.  That pretty much echoed across the board. Even the Glaive's most prominant user (Mick Thomson) has gone back to RGs too. Which leads to...



MaxOfMetal said:


> Also,* I think a lot of folks want decidedly non-Ibanez guitars just with an Ibanez logo for some reason.* The Ibanez formula has pretty much always been basswood/maple/rosewood with often subdued aesthetics. Their best selling, longest running models fit that bill (RG550/RG1550/RG655).


 
 I've never understood this logic. On the grand scope of things, Ibanez has a surprisingly wide range of different kinds of guitars. There was a meme that said it best, like AT models = strat dude, FR models = hipster, J Custom = deep pockets, something along those lines. Hell, they've even experimented on all things random (RG Kaoss). Of course those will still pale in sales compared to their flagship RG.


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## A-Branger (Jun 18, 2015)

yeah I know what you mean, same issue just we are focusing on a different target then lol

Maybe we should change the topic of this tread to: "Dear Ibanez distributors/importers..Wehre's......." lol

but yeah I know how that works, if people dont buy, they dont order, they dont build. But that's what I was trying to say before, it is a fine line there as someone has to take the desicition of what to build in the first place. people cant really buy something if theres nothing to buy.... is a circle, "I only buy Y color because no-one release X .....We dont build X color because no-one buys them, ppl buy Y.."


I understand that there is risk for sellers and they only order what is "going to sell" or what the "market ask" in their countries. So cool, get your order of "X" basses or guitar for your country, but dont deny the other models. Have them on catalog, but as a "dealer order only".

So yeah I would never see one at the shops, but if I want to, I could order one at my shop, they would make an order to the dealer. That I would have to wait x amount of time to get it?... awesome, dont care. but let me buy it. is not hurting anyone, my shop/dealer/importer all of them are still making their share, I just have to wait till the "next shipment"


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## asher (Jun 18, 2015)

That's decidedly not how economies of scale work 

It's more than likely going to need to be a small run for it to be worth them dealing with custom specs at their factories.


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## A-Branger (Jun 19, 2015)

asher said:


> That's decidedly not how economies of scale work
> 
> It's more than likely going to need to be a small run for it to be worth them dealing with custom specs at their factories.



not referring to custom work. Im talking about already existing models

for example. Ibanez sr premiums:

In Australia at this moment we can only get the sr1800 and the sr1200 series.
In USA you guys can get those two, plus the sr1400E and the sr1400TE

in the past you guys could get the SR1600 (blr top one), but you couldn't in AUS

and same deal applies to other basses and guitars and other countries.



so yeah If im going to my local shop, they are going to only have the SR1200 on the wall and if I ask for a catalog it would shomeme that and the 1800.

So Why I cant go and order the SR1600 or the SR1400??. I only would have to wait till their next shipment comes so my bass can come in there. maybe a 6 month wait? maybe, but Id be happy

it is taht or having to jump hoops in ebay, pay extra taxes, or getting an US adresss or currier service to ship there and they would ship to me (and still pay more taxes), or get a family member who lives there to send it to me, or get a plane ticket and get it myself, wait for a second hand one to hit the mayor stores, only then they are allowed to sell it to me.... etc etc

have you seen the RG721FM premium? beautiful natural mapple flame top, or the new Paul Guilbert PGM? oh yeah they are not available in the US... (as a quick example on the top of my head)...have fun organizing one from Europe, instead to casually go to your local shop




for a while I was GASing for the LTD ZH7, my shop oly has the AW7.. but hey were. Let me call my distribuitor.... the ZH7 cost $$$ and as it is not in stock you have to wait XXX for us to get it here

why Ibanez cant be like that?


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 19, 2015)

Max, that's my question.
Does a model/line/series sell horribly because it has not appeal or does it sell horribly because it kind of fall short?

I totally love my XPT700 but it's still an Indonesian made guitar with something cheap-y like the Edge III for example, bad fret access at the higher frets, painted neck and the timbers are probably not the best.
I snatched it in perfect condition, second hand for less than &#8364; 400,00 and its retail price was around &#8364; 700,00, so I am extremely happy.
Though I would have gladly forked more money for a more refined guitar with that shape.
Today I'll probably pick a Falchion for &#8364; 280,00.
I like the shape, but I know the timbers are crappish, Indonesian manufacturing at best, bad pups, bad bridge.
I've been thinking about picking this up for more than a year, because, again, I would have forked more for a more refined instrument.
When I picked the RG2228 I hated the dots, but it was the only 8 strings quality solution at the time, I'd rather had a plain not marked fretboard


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 19, 2015)

A-Branger said:


> not referring to custom work. Im talking about already existing models
> 
> for example. Ibanez sr premiums:
> 
> ...



Did you even read my previous post? 

Ibanez isn't the problem you're having, the importer is. 

When Ibanez comes out with their new models and price lists each year they send them to distributors who then choose which models they want to order. 

Distributors can often spot order, but they have to order more than one to make it worth it.


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## Badside (Jun 19, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Ibanez isn't the problem you're having, the importer is.
> 
> When Ibanez comes out with their new models and price lists each year they send them to distributors who then choose which models they want to order.



Then the Canadian distributor is a moron...

Trems have been almost eradicated from the RG line up here. I know there had been demand for more hardtails, but doesn't it make sense to have superstrats come with trems? The ones that do are either cheapos with the dubious "Std DL Tremolo", or overpriced Premiums with the EZ-IIs that used to be on cheapos.
I'm not saying the Premium line is overpriced, I'm saying the models we get are: hardware that used to be on the Standard line + fancy veneer top = up to three times the price of the equivalent Standard model


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 19, 2015)

Badside said:


> Then the Canadian distributor is a moron...
> 
> Trems have been almost eradicated from the RG line up here. I know there had been demand for more hardtails, but doesn't it make sense to have superstrats come with trems? The ones that do are either cheapos with the dubious "Std DL Tremolo", or overpriced Premiums with the EZ-IIs that used to be on cheapos.
> I'm not saying the Premium line is overpriced, I'm saying the models we get are: hardware that used to be on the Standard line + fancy veneer top = up to three times the price of the equivalent Standard model



Efkay, the Canadian distributor, is kinda known for being pretty lame.


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## Badside (Jun 19, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Efkay, the Canadian distributor, is kinda known for being pretty lame.



I needed a new superstrat recently, there was literally nothing interesting when looking at trem equipped models. All the while Jackson has a very complete line with decent models at all prices... but I prefer Ibanez's wider necks.

Thankfully was able to find a "NOS" 2014 model that still had the specs that are now reserved for Iron Label or Premium lines (3-piece neck, nicer inlays, matching headstock, Edge Zero-II trem)


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## A-Branger (Jun 19, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Did you even read my previous post?
> 
> Ibanez isn't the problem you're having, the importer is.
> 
> ...



I did read it, hence why I suggest to change the topic name to "dear Ibanez importers....." 


Ibanez/distribuidors/importers,ect.... we are here to vent some steam and rant a bit. No one is going to "read this topic and make a change in their company structure" but hey, feels good to rant LOL


distributors get what 1, 2, maybe 3 big shipments per year into the country, after that they send it to the local shops. So my question is why I cant order my bass or guitar, and they would just "tick" this X bass on next order... so we have 10 of W model, 5 of Y model, 20 of Z model, and 1 of X model.

again, is not hurting, bankrupt anyone. It is possible to do, as for example, everyone has to offer the top Jem, Toni Abasi, and Jake B, signature. But (at least here) no-one would have one in store. the closest I have seen is the premium Jems and they have it up high on a wall behind the counter like "Im expensive, dont touch me unless u have the funds" (and that is a 1-2K premium)..... but anyone can order one of those 4K prestige signature guitars. And I bet you they would have 1 maybe 2 on stock on this country. So if someone can make a special order to get shipped one of those, why I can get my X bass or guitar shipped on the next lot too?


yes, I know the distributors make the call, but Ibanez seems to be the only brand who works under that plan. I dont see the same happening with ESP/LTD for example


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 19, 2015)

A-Branger said:


> distributors get what 1, 2, maybe 3 big shipments per year into the country, after that they send it to the local shops. So my question is why I cant order my bass or guitar, and they would just "tick" this X bass on next order... so we have 10 of W model, 5 of Y model, 20 of Z model, and 1 of X model.
> 
> again, is not hurting, bankrupt anyone. It is possible to do, as for example, everyone has to offer the top Jem, Toni Abasi, and Jake B, signature. But (at least here) no-one would have one in store. the closest I have seen is the premium Jems and they have it up high on a wall behind the counter like "Im expensive, dont touch me unless u have the funds" (and that is a 1-2K premium)..... but anyone can order one of those 4K prestige signature guitars. And I bet you they would have 1 maybe 2 on stock on this country. So if someone can make a special order to get shipped one of those, why I can get my X bass or guitar shipped on the next lot too?
> 
> ...



Once again, you're not understanding how it works. They need to make the order worth while, importing a single low-profit item isn't profitable, especially if it's out of their usual order cycle. 

The price and origin of the guitar/bass matters a lot too. 

For instance, any of the MIJ stuff (whether it's Sugi, Prestige, or J.Custom) can be ordered "out of cycle" which means distributors hold a large inventory that they can then move to a retailer when the order is placed. They're lower movement, yet higher profit instruments so working that way is ideal. Also, Fujigen builds in batches which they then release to distributors, they're actually a surprisingly small facility considering their output. 

The MII stuff is another story. They're made in much larger batches and then delivered in bigger quantities. Due to that it's much more expensive to order a single instrument, as the factories themselves ship in large quantities. 

If you want the instrument, you're going to have to pay those "extra" costs of importation. It's not really fair to the dealer, or even the distributor for that matter, to cover the costs on such a relatively cheap instrument. 

As for ESP/LTD, try getting an Edwards, Grassroots, Japanese Artist, or Navigator outside of Japan. When's the last time you saw a Japanese Schecter? All large companies do this to some extent, as not all markets are identical. Heck, even the large American companies do it, such as the Gibson Taks, and some Fender Japan artist models. 

You're in Australia, which kinda makes it even harder as there's both a very small market, big import costs, and a single, unified importer and distributor. At least here in the US we have two distributors (HUSA and Chesbro), one of which has been known to get "out of market" models with minimal extra cost.



OmegaSlayer said:


> Max, that's my question.
> Does a model/line/series sell horribly because it has not appeal or does it sell horribly because it kind of fall short?



The higher end they make the guitar or bass the more capital they need to invest in it's creation, both R&D and production. 

You'll notice that about every year they, Ibanez (and really a lot of different companies), releases about 90% "safe" model like RGs and Sabers in traditional finishes with the usual specs and about 10% "new/exciting/different" things like 9-strings, fanned frets, short scale basses, etc. 

Of that 10%, they're probably lucky to see about half of them sell well. It's a big risk, in financial terms, to bring unique instruments to market. By making them cheaper, if they fail, it won't be a serious hit. 

But, it's not all about the money. Companies like Ibanez really rely on their distributors and retailers, without them and their support there would be no Ibanez. To that end, they need to produce guitars that WILL sell and not just sit and collect dust and force their dealers and distributors to take a loss. They need to keep the relationship good. 

For everyone 10 people on the Internet who says they'll buy something, I'd say about .5 will. That's just how it is. While maybe a few folks would have spent $2k on a high end Xiphos, obviously folks didn't buy enough of them when they were less than half that and it took years to sell the remaining, even further reduced inventory. Not to mention the 700 series X-Models were pretty well regarded in the quality department. 

The same thing happened with the RGA and RGT models, they were released at numerous price points, in tons of different (non-black even) colors, and they didn't really sell. Ibanez even tried bringing back the RGA (twice in fact!) and it again flopped, both the Indo and Japanese models.


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## Vrollin (Jun 20, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're in Australia, which kinda makes it even harder as there's both a very small market, big import costs, and a single, unified importer and distributor. At least here in the US we have two distributors (HUSA and Chesbro), one of which has been known to get "out of market" models with minimal extra cost.



I can ship a guitar from the states cheaper than i can across country... its bull ...., ive said it before, the distributors and the comoanies they work for need to sort their .... out in australia. The "local" market is now global thanks to cheap shipping and online shopping, its not the customers fault if the local market is falling under but the distributors for not being competitive enough...


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## A-Branger (Jun 20, 2015)

Vrollin said:


> I can ship a guitar from the states cheaper than i can across country... its bull ...., ive said it before, the distributors and the comoanies they work for need to sort their .... out in australia. The "local" market is now global thanks to cheap shipping and online shopping, its not the customers fault if the local market is falling under but the distributors for not being competitive enough...



I know, for some models sometimes is better for you to buy a cheap flight to LA, buy it there and flight back than just get it here.


funny thing, we are way closer to their factories.....


stupid aussie taxes


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 20, 2015)

I think this would sell a ton 





And it's a guitar they already have Researched & Enginered

Also maybe the product cycle at one year is maybe a bit too short to reap fruits.
Is it really necessary to upgrade the colours in a series every year?
I also think that big brands have bad communication with the fan base, sometimes cryptic, while people nowadays can reach very good luthiers via mail and have good replies/relations.
Then Max, you obviously know a lot more, even more than you feel allowed to tell 
But, from what I gather, the manufacturers are not in the best condition to make money, as lots of stuff doesn't exactly work their way.
Importers and stores included.
Every time I go to a store here in Italy I saw low or mid tier stuff (for every brand except Gibson and Fender).
How am I supposed to fork 2-3k of &#8364; for something I can't even try?
Yes it's available if you order it, but it's a blind try, so risk for risk, people ends up buying second hand if there's a chance.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 20, 2015)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I think this would sell a ton
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not a factory model, it's a LACS. There's still tons of development needed to make that a production models, and then they need to convince distributors that a super high end RGA will sell even though MIJ RGAs have failed numerous times. 

The problem is that brick and mortar music stores are dying. They can't afford to chuck $2k+ guitars on the sales floor all willy nilly just to significantly discount it after everyone beats on it while still not buying anything.

Most guitars at all price points are being bought online. The value in having floor models is very quickly going away.

The world's biggest musical instrument retailer, GC/MF is dying a slow, painful death because the stores are a financial nightmare to operate. I read an article recently that said for every dollar sold at GC about .30¢ was lost to discounted and damaged gear. 

In this day and age trying before buying is a luxury.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 20, 2015)

Yeah, it has become pretty clear, and, at the end of the fair, this new business model will bring no advantage to us customer.
If it wouldn't be for taxes, duty and this stuff, it would be easier for the manufacturer to sell directly to customers, and even better for us since a good chunk of the retail price (20-25%) would be cut.
Dunno where we're going with e-commerce but my guts don't like it.

And...I run a store, so I know what the problems are, but...you can't sell what you don't have.
2 weeks ago a friend of mine wanted to buy his first guitar, a Fender Mexican Telecaster, since he's in the Bon Jovi Italian Official Tribute band and wanted the one Jon uses, but couldn't afford the USA Tele.
We went to a store, tried the model, but it was Yellow with White pickguard instead of Black with White Pickguard.
He could have ordered it and have it in 2-3 days (long time because it was Friday), he phoned to another store and they had the B&W Mex Tele, so we went there and he picked his guitar and he payed it a good 10% more, but he could try it and pick it up immediately.
That day I wanted to try the Kiko, the Egen end the TAM, but they had the Premium ones, I could have tried them and think "the Prestige" will be like this but better...but how much better to justify the price which is 3-4 times more?

There are pro and cons in having a short selection in stores obviously, and I can't blame stores for lack of gear, but it really makes me sad to enter a full fetched musical instruments store and not see professional tier instruments or only brands that are sure sell.
Here in Roma is impossible to find a Jackson , 2 guys opened a store selling only ESP (LTD actually), BC Rich and Washburn and shut the store down in 2 years.
It's sad.


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## A-Branger (Jun 20, 2015)

its because most of the sales they do are cheap entry level instruments. People who are getting into music first time and go to a store an they can quick buy it.

people who are whilling to spend 2-4K on a guitar are pretty rare. I know it seems odd but again this is a forum dedicated to us, taht kind of people, and people who would get multiple instruments. My "latest" bass already has 14 years with me, and prob now is when I want a new one. My guitar was 5 years old before I jsut bought my second one..... people like here who would buy lots, well you already know them lol, they are no more.

So having a 4K guitar sitting on a store so you can go, try, and say "mmm the 2K one is not that much different.... would think about it" is not proffitable for them, it is a huge risk. Maybe in USA woudl be fine, but in here in Australia they jack the prices so high due to stupid import taxes that people who are going to get that kind of guitar know that it would be way to expensive to do so here and they would buy it online from overseas somehow


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## Rawkmann (Jun 20, 2015)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Then there's the 540pII which is a total blast from the past, seriously cool looking guitar, but Ibanez never tried a reissue to gauge the market's interest.



I'm with You on this whole Ibanez issue. Look at Ibanez lineup for 2009 which is where I fell they hit their pinnacle. My cousin and I were discussing the ultimate Ibanez guitar would be 540pII shape, neck through, possibly even arch top, 24 fret super wizard neck.


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## celticelk (Jun 20, 2015)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Yeah, it has become pretty clear, and, at the end of the fair, this new business model will bring no advantage to us customer.
> If it wouldn't be for taxes, duty and this stuff, it would be easier for the manufacturer to sell directly to customers, and even better for us since a good chunk of the retail price (20-25%) would be cut.



Not necessarily - the manufacturers would have to maintain much more complex ordering, warehousing, and distribution systems than they do currently, and that would increase their costs.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 20, 2015)

Rawkmann said:


> I'm with You on this whole Ibanez issue. Look at Ibanez lineup for 2009 which is where I fell they hit their pinnacle. My cousin and I were discussing the ultimate Ibanez guitar would be 540pII shape, neck through, possibly even arch top, 24 fret super wizard neck.



Look up the Jackson Demon. 

It's been available via the Custom Shop for many years.



celticelk said:


> Not necessarily - the manufacturers would have to maintain much more complex ordering, warehousing, and distribution systems than they do currently, and that would increase their costs.





I work in an industry similar to musical instrument distribution (three tier) and as fun as the concept of going direct sounds at this stage of the game it would be an absolute disaster with any theoretical gains instantly lost to increased staffing, shipping, and additional overhead of in-house distribution. 

The system works for about 90% of people, so its likely going to be like this, three tier with online dealers, for a very long time.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 20, 2015)

@A-Branger

I'll keep talking about the experience I had with that friend of mine and my experience.
That Tele was his first electric, he owned a Takamine already (guess what...the one Bon Jovi uses ), he wanted to go for the Squier Tele that looked like Bon Jovi's one.
Now, my first guitar was a Squier Strato...I know the cheap guitars limits, and how much they influence your playing.
With that Strato I had reached my limit, I couldn't play any better than I was playing.
Obviously I didn't knew or realized that, but when I got my Yamaha RGX custom, my hands were already on another level.
So I tried to convince my friend to fork money at least for a Mexican Fender because those cheap instruments seems cheap but at the end they cost way more than what they're worth.
Even the Mex Tele he picked for a whoooping &#8364; 560,00 was quite the turd in my eyes.
The fretwork was very good and left me impressed (though the frets itself were silly, soooo small) and the sound of the 2 combined pups is glorious, better than any guitar I have honestly and had a fairly good setup with decent action and stuff.
Still the guitar had a dead neck imho...there were parts where what you played simply died on itself, either plugged or unplugged.
For that money I got a 7 string Schecter Demon 5 years ago that never had a single problem, I take it at work, leave it in the heat, cold, dump, it took a lot of hits and its neck never moved.
But people who's not informed will pick the brand and the guitar of their idol and not check the prices.
I've come to the conclusion that buying a cheap guitar, unless you want to mod the hell out of it (and it might cost you more than a good stock guitar), is really a bad investment.

In the case of Ibanez, if you buy lower than a Premium, you'll buy an instrument that is probably worse quality wise than a Schecter or LTD in the same price range.

At this point I do really think that the biggest market for Iron Label and Premium lines are the modders which are way less than the entry level kiddo who'll probably pick a Squier, an Epiphone or some guitar with an extreme shape.
But that poor kiddo (or my uninformed friend who's 32) is going to bring home a guitar that will not benefit him.

Silly stuff...his Richie Sambora's friend who came to the store with us, knew the difference of Fender guitars through the years but couldn't tell the difference of rosewood and maple fretboard in sound and he said that the rosewood is only glued to the maple to prevent wearing...I facepalmed and the clerk there just said "erm...NO!"

Yeah, we're the crazy guys here, undoubtely, but we're the spearhead of the market.
It mind sound biased and presumptuous, but our pickyness and thickness pave the way to make kiddos find better stuff in stores.


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## surge (Jan 31, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I think this would sell a ton
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As much as I would fkn LOVE to see that as a production model, Ibanez still wouldn't be able to sell it in the USA due to the ZR2 bridge patent issue 

I think that's why they have scaled back the tremolo models to almost none on the Prestige lineup, especially 7 strings. The Edge Zero is patent-free from what I remember but the ZPS system is not -- some guy claims he "invented" that back in the 90s. I think that's why a lot of the EZ trems don't use the ZPS system anymore outside of Japan. 

That same guy has a patent on ball bearing tremolos too, which means the ZR2 is out. I am not that impressed with Ibanez's offerings as of late, even after seeing the new ones at NAMM 2016. I am glad I got an RG1527M at a steal before they were discontinued. IIRC there's only *two* seven string RG Prestige's now with a tremolo in the entire lineup; the rest are all hard tails -- and the premium RGs are totally discontinued in the USA as far as I know.

Not going to speak for anyone else but my thing is, I see the innovation that they have done in the past and I just feel like I missed out on a lot because a lot of it is no longer made, and it seems almost like a regression with their newer models, especially back to the Edge \ LoPro Edge trems...I know some people love those, but I am not one of those people  
I would take a ZR2 or a SynchroniZR any day over those....but sadly both of those are banned in the USA now.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 31, 2016)

They've scaled back the trems because the fixed bridge models sell better. 

While the RG Prestige landscape might seem barren of trems, there are actually more trem equipped Prestige 7 strings than there has ever been in the past. Right now there are six trem'd Prestige 7s available in three different body shapes. 

As for going back to the older bridge designs, Ibanez was kinda blindsided by the ZPS/ZR lawsuit so the pretty much had to go back. They didn't have time to design a new bridge.


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## surge (Jan 31, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They've scaled back the trems because the fixed bridge models sell better.
> 
> While the RG Prestige landscape might seem barren of trems, there are actually more trem equipped Prestige 7 strings than there has ever been in the past. Right now there are six trem'd Prestige 7s available in three different body shapes.
> 
> As for going back to the older bridge designs, Ibanez was kinda blindsided by the ZPS/ZR lawsuit so the pretty much had to go back. They didn't have time to design a new bridge.



Sounds about right; a lot of people don't seem to care for trems anymore.
I am a bit disappointed that the S5570Q does not have a 7 string variant though -- even with the LoPro Edge, I would still buy it. I just love that purple \ grey quilt top, and I've been dying to get an S series Prestige since I was around 12 years old and I saw one in a local shop.

Would be nice if Ibanez could design a new trem that could be hard tailed with the push of a lever or screw, like something really user friendly that would be more acceptable & appealing and with less cons than tremol-no \ backstop \ etc.

The improvements that they made on the EZ \ ZR though are downright amazing to me...The intonation set screw alone makes setups on those trems such a joy to work on.

Thank you Mr. McCabe for that lawsuit :| I just love that guy


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

surge said:


> Sounds about right; a lot of people don't seem to care for trems anymore.
> I am a bit disappointed that the S5570Q does not have a 7 string variant though -- even with the LoPro Edge, I would still buy it. I just love that purple \ grey quilt top, and I've been dying to get an S series Prestige since I was around 12 years old and I saw one in a local shop.
> 
> Would be nice if Ibanez could design a new trem that could be hard tailed with the push of a lever or screw, like something really user friendly that would be more acceptable & appealing and with less cons than tremol-no \ backstop \ etc.
> ...



I think the problem is that just about every method that's practical has been thought of/patented so unless Ibanez devises some crazy roundabout way to do it, or is willing to pay big bucks to license an existing system, we're not going to see it in for foreseeable future. 

Do you have a set of trem keys? They make intonation so much easier. It's like the system built into the Zero trems but removable. They're available for the Lo-Pro and Original Edge systems.


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## rewihendrix (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the problem is that just about every method that's practical has been thought of/patented so unless Ibanez devises some crazy roundabout way to do it, or is willing to pay big bucks to license an existing system, we're not going to see it in for foreseeable future.
> .



that or the US could fix its draconian patent laws.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

rewihendrix said:


> that or the US could fix its draconian patent laws.



I think Ibanez will be making 15 string, fanned fret, carbon fiber guitars with Teflon necks and lazer strings by the time that happens.


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## rewihendrix (Feb 1, 2016)

the fear is that I'll no longer be able to buy synchronisR trem Ibanezes once the TPPA is signed

WAY more worrying than life-saving generic medicines becoming prohibitively expensive, obviously.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks don't seem to understand how it works.
> Those RGAs and RGTs everyone always talks about sold miserably. They were available at a discount for nearly a year before they were all sold. The X-Series? Same thing. Once the artists abandoned them and the sales tanked they were harder to move, so distributors stopped ordering. Why did they drop the inlays other than dots on the Prestige line? Because dots sold better.



Well then they need to re-release the RGT so nobody will buy them and I can get mine at a discount. I still want one of the J Custom RGTs with ebony board or a minty 2002 RGT3120TV with the lopro.


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 1, 2016)

I still think Ibanez has to open a custom shop like Jackson, ESP, Schecter, PRS, Carvin...

(I would never buy a guitar with a bridge I don't like and would replace and has a top or a good veneer)


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I still think Ibanez has to open a custom shop like Jackson, ESP, Schecter, PRS, Carvin...
> 
> (I would never buy a guitar with a bridge I don't like and would replace and has a top or a good veneer)



Ibanez would have to invest in a whole shop to make that happen. 

Companies like Jackson, ESP, and Schecter started out as custom shops and later went on to production guitars, while production has always been Ibanez's thing.

It's worth noting that the custom operations of those companies, while well established, still don't bring in nearly as much profit as the production operation.


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## OmegaSlayer (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Ibanez would have to invest in a whole shop to make that happen.
> 
> Companies like Jackson, ESP, and Schecter started out as custom shops and later went on to production guitars, while production has always been Ibanez's thing.
> 
> It's worth noting that the custom operations of those companies, while well established, still don't bring in nearly as much profit as the production operation.



I don't know the operating income of Ibanez, I don't think that making guitars is a multi-million dollar business, still I think a custom shop or semi custom shop a-la Carvin would help.
Check the latest RGA and RGD on the Iron Label series...I love them...except the Gibraltar is a big nope for me, I would rather go for a recessed TOM or better for a tight end, but having a luthier change the bridge would cost me more than a semi-custom from the Ibanez factory.
CNC a body and preparing it for the customer's preferred bridge can't cost that much more than putting a guitar on the market just hoping it will sell.

Ibanez has spearheaded the guitar innovation and that's why I absolutely love the brand, still, lately, a thing or another is holding them back.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 1, 2016)

Maybe not custom shop, but how about semi-custom on Prestige line?

Some easy low/no cost options:
Regular or reverse headstock
Fret markers - vine, dot, sharktooth, none
Fretboard - already an available "option" on some models between rosewood and maple, maybe ebony as well?

For signature models, I'd love to be able to get a signature delete to remove the name or symbol (like the Lee McKinney LM symbol delete from Carvin)

They should break even or make money with a custom surcharge fee and retail for the add-ons.

Just a thought... but it's not like they're hurting in the marketplace.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I don't think that making guitars is a multi-million dollar business



HUSA, Ibanez's US distributor alone does close to $50 _million_ in sales annually. Once again, that's just one distributor in one country. 



> still I think a custom shop or semi custom shop a-la Carvin would help.



I wasn't lying before, or guessing. The custom operations of production guitar companies (something Carvin/Kiesel isn't, so bringing them up is pointless) is but a small fraction of their overall revenue and they _already own their own facilities_. 



> but having a luthier change the bridge would cost me more than a semi-custom from the Ibanez factory.



What? 

Have you seen what those other shops you mention charge to do things like small changes to regular (high end) production models? In the case of Jackson, a stock SL2H is $2400, going the Custom Select route (not full custom even) and the price _starts_ at $2200. ESP has a similar structure. 



> CNC a body and preparing it for the customer's preferred bridge can't cost that much more than putting a guitar on the market just hoping it will sell.



 

That's not at all how that works. Not even a little. 



> lately, a thing or another is holding them back.



They've had a very profitable last few years, how is that being "held back"?



USMarine75 said:


> Maybe not custom shop, but how about semi-custom on Prestige line?



Fujigen can barely handle the current workload, let alone a bunch of "easy" custom orders. 

You have to remember, Ibanez doesn't own it's manufacturing, it's all OEM so they're at the mercy of them. In this case, Fujigen just isn't tooled up for it. Heck, FGN barely does custom work. 



> For signature models, I'd love to be able to get a signature delete to remove the name or symbol (like the Lee McKinney LM symbol delete from Carvin)



That's a contract issue. Ibanez can't just decide to take the JEM branding off of JEMs for instance. 



> They should break even or make money with a custom surcharge fee and retail for the add-ons.



If you have the cash, you can order whatever you want, you're just going to have to invest in a large retail order. 

It's not as easy as slapping a couple hundred dollars to the MSRP like it is with ESP or Jackson who own their manufacturing and thus aren't hit with scale costs they can't move over.


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## rewihendrix (Feb 1, 2016)

It might be unfashionable to say this but there are benefits to the factory line production model. People doing the same thing over and over can get pretty good at it.

It's part of the reason the Prestige line is such good value for money. Even if it were feasible to open that up to custom it's going to throw a spanner in that streamlined process.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 1, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> HUSA, Ibanez's US distributor alone does close to $50 _million_ in sales annually. Once again, that's just one distributor in one country.



That alone is reason enough why they arent about to change their marketing model any time soon.


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## A-Branger (Feb 1, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Check the latest RGA and RGD on the Iron Label series...I love them...except the Gibraltar is a big nope for me,.



I still have no idea on why people hate that bride that much?

either way, guessing you didnt follow the Ibanez tread. There is a direct replacement for it with a Hipshot bridge, go to their page and check it out


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## A-Branger (Feb 1, 2016)

I dont think if Ibanez had a custom shop many would pay the price for it at all.

This forum is full of ppl willing to pay top $ for guitars, and still I have barely see any Jackson custom shop, or ESP custom, or PRS custom shop either.

IF you have the kind of cash for a "ibanez custom", there are heaps of luthiers happy to take that cash and make your ibanez dream. It wont say "ibanez" on the headstock (unless you buy the decal) but so??


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## A-Branger (Feb 1, 2016)

edit: double post


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## Vrollin (Feb 2, 2016)

surge said:


> Sounds about right; a lot of people don't seem to care for trems anymore.
> I am a bit disappointed that the S5570Q does not have a 7 string variant though -- even with the LoPro Edge, I would still buy it. I just love that purple \ grey quilt top, and I've been dying to get an S series Prestige since I was around 12 years old and I saw one in a local shop.
> 
> Would be nice if Ibanez could design a new trem that could be hard tailed with the push of a lever or screw, like something really user friendly that would be more acceptable & appealing and with less cons than tremol-no \ backstop \ etc.
> ...



I actually came up with a really good method that any "floyd" equipped guitar could use to lock it into a hard tail, it could be sold as an aftermarket kit or included in the production process for a few extra cents. I know nothing about how to get the idea to anyone who could implement it, and if it was something to be used well I'd like to patent it and make some coin haha


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## Vrollin (Feb 2, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Check the latest RGA and RGD on the Iron Label series...I love them...except the Gibraltar is a big nope for me, I would rather go for a recessed TOM or better for a tight end, but having a luthier change the bridge would cost me more than a semi-custom from the Ibanez factory.



What exactly is "wrong" with that bridge? They are in all respects a very good bridge, comfortable and easy to work with for set ups etc....


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 2, 2016)

Pretty sure they fixed the issues with the GIbraltar Standard back in 2013. It's a lot more low-profile now.


25 seconds in. Looks a lot better than the old Gibraltar. In fact, with the rounded saddles, it looks pretty comfy.


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## gunch (Feb 2, 2016)

Gibraltar h8rs missed last year when they released the Gibraltar Standard II

Also, notice before when they'd put Gibraltars on damn near everything they're now saving the new ones for Iron Labels and above?


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## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 5, 2016)

silverabyss said:


> Gibraltar h8rs missed last year when they released the Gibraltar Standard II
> 
> Also, notice before when they'd put Gibraltars on damn near everything they're now saving the new ones for Iron Labels and above?



The fender-style hardtail is probably 5 bucks. And it's still better than a ToM.


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## PunchLine (Feb 5, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I wonder if there's some strange manufacturing problem we're not aware of so that the reverse headstock must be so rare.
> In my head they're just lefty necks with reverse logos, but maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> I think Ibby should run every model at 90% of production with regular headstock and 10% with reverse and see what happens.



Maybe they limit the availability of the reverse headstock models to the public so that they can use these guitars to attract and keep endorsers. Wood, hw, pu, color choices are available from all manufacturers... But a mean-looking reverse headstock Ibanez guitar is only available from Ibanez...


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## PunchLine (Feb 5, 2016)

MaxOfMetal said:


> But, it's not all about the money. Companies like Ibanez really rely on their distributors and retailers, without them and their support there would be no Ibanez. To that end, they need to produce guitars that WILL sell and not just sit and collect dust and force their dealers and distributors to take a loss. They need to keep the relationship good.
> 
> The same thing happened with the RGA and RGT models, they were released at numerous price points, in tons of different (non-black even) colors, and they didn't really sell. Ibanez even tried bringing back the RGA (twice in fact!) and it again flopped, both the Indo and Japanese models.



Consumers/end-users typically overlook the fact that distributors and retailers are the "customers" of a manufacturer. We, the end-users are the "customers" of the retailers. We never write a check or give our credit card number to Ibanez.

Our local distributor still has two RGT Prestige models in stock. That's like tieing your capital to stock for what? 4-5 years? Huge loss...


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## surge (Feb 7, 2016)

Was just looking around and it appears that SweetWater USA has the RG3727FZ!
Really amazing that they were able to get those European market RG 7 strings and sell them here. Props to them. 
Flame top, Edge Zero 7 w/ ZPS, Mahogany (or it it basswood? Sweet water has both listed on their specs page, lol), beautiful...
Not necessarily a fan of the transparent black finish but I think I could live with it.
I am glad at least ONE Ibanez reseller here in the USA is listening to me and giving more 7 string RG trem options!
And of course it's the Edge Zero, my second favorite (ZR / SynchroniZR first)...The intonation set screw alone is enough to cream over...Can't begin to describe how nice it is to have that when doing setups.
Damn...I think I'm going to buy this! ::happy dance::


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