# Extreme Rightwing Christian Terrorists attack Norway



## Northern

So, just one hour ago, shit went down in Oslo.
At least one carbomb, possibly more has blown the government building to pieces and theres complete chaos. 

This is quite surreal as this is the first time something like this happens here.
Still I'm not surprised, our involvement in Libya, and generally us getting involved with anythins USA does has made us som enemies.

Here some Norwegian news-sites with some pictures.

Stor eksplosjon i Oslo - nyheter - Dagbladet.no

Regjeringskvartalet ser ut som en krigssone etter kraftig eksplosjon - VG Nett

EDIT:
While total chaos in Oslo, a man disguised as a police-officer has gotten in to a summercamp filled with politically active youth and startet shooting. This may be planned together with the terrorist attack. So a man shooting a gun, on an island full of children and youth that has no way of escaping.

What a day to be Norwegian





pink freud said:


> WHAT THE FUCK:
> 
> Shooting in Utøya north of Oslo - Today 22 Jul 2011



Also, a group called "Helpers of Global Jihad" have claimed they did it. This might be bullshit though. Also Police confirmed that many more are dead but have not been moved due to forensic reasons.


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## XEN

Any organization claim it yet?


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## Xiphos68

Prayers for your country and people.


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## chronocide

Shit.

The English language news reports I can find don't suggest that anyone has claimed responsibility. A couple tack on unrelated mentions of Islamic terror suspects from last year and an attack in Sweden. Doesn't seem to suggest the assumption should be that it's an attack by Islamic terrorists or anything though.


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## Northern

urklvt said:


> Any organization claim it yet?



Nope, just chaos.
My guess is Khadaffi though.
He prommised hell if anyone kept bombing Libya, and he attacked us because no one was expecting it to be here.


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## chronocide

Northern said:


> Nope, just chaos.
> My guess is Khadaffi though.
> He prommised hell if anyone kept bombing Libya, and he attacked us because no one was expecting it to be here.



There's little chance of it having been Libya, they learned their lesson about directly sponsoring terrorism after Lockerbie, I think. I don't think it's likely to have been Islamic terrorists with Gadaffi sympathies, either, since he rules a secular nation and if he falls a far more fundamentalist regime is likely to take over.


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## Northern

chronocide said:


> There's little chance of it having been Libya, they learned their lesson about directly sponsoring terrorism after Lockerbie, I think. I don't think it's likely to have been Islamic terrorists with Gadaffi sympathies, either, since he rules a secular nation and if he falls a far more fundamentalist regime is likely to take over.



I really do think that looking at recent events in Libya tells us alot about Gadaffi's inability to learn anything at all. Also, Norway has very few enemies that are not connected to Islamic groups. We have a lot of conservative muslims with conections to terrorist-groups living in Norway. This we know. We also know that this was a carbomb, not a gas-explosion like some foreign news-agencies are saying. There's no gas-heating of buildings here i Norway. A bomb exploding between the goverment building and the Ministry of Oil, common, this has to be Gadaffi.


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## chronocide

Conservative Muslims, as a rule, are not Gadaffi supporters. Just as they weren't Hussein supporters. Middle Eastern secular tyrants aren't exactly fundamentalist Islam's friends.


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## pink freud

Northern said:


> Stor eksplosjon i Oslo - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
> 
> Regjeringskvartalet ser ut som en krigssone etter kraftig eksplosjon - VG Nett



Here's Google translations:

(Dagbladet): There has been a huge explosion in the middle of its ministries in the city center. There is major damage, and several government buildings are razed. Several have been confirmed dead and many injured. The scope is so far unclear.

The 17-time police confirmed to Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet that the case of a bomb.

- What we know is that there are many injured and some died, said police efforts leading to the scene, Thor Langli.

- Run like crazy
- People ran like crazy from the site, said an eyewitness told Dagbladet.

Police at the site told Dagbladet that the attack was directed against the Oil and Energy, as in 16-era still is on fire.

- An employee of the Ministry, who resided in the building that has the greatest damage, have tried to obtain an overview of the situation. He told Dagbladet that he believes there is about a car bomb on the ground in Grubbegaten.

- The building I was in, looks like after the Oklahoma bombing in the United States.

It is supported by the police informed that a big car to be driven up to the government building just before the explosion occurred.

Very strong
The explosion could be felt in Holmlia, which is situated in Oslo's southern edge, and the Nesodden and Sandvika, Akershus.

A father was called by her daughter, who was on Young Square, outside the Labour Party office.

- My daughter called me up and said she could not breathe, there was blood around her, and a piece of glass stuck in her throat, said Hoshang Afshar for her daughter Amosha of 16 years, now receiving treatment for injuries.

- There are a lot of injured people in the area, many seriously injured. There is injured inside the area with excessive bleeding. All the buildings are destroyed, it is absolutely awful, says Jan Larsen told newspaper Dagbladet.

Larsen works in the Health and Care Services, and sat at the computer when the explosion happened.

- It broke all the corridors. Everything was torn to shreds.

He believes there are those who stayed in the lower floors, which are the most injured.

- There may be more bombs, said police on site to Dagbladet.

The 17-time reject the police that they think it is about more bombs.

- There is nothing to suggest it, says efforts leading Langli.

VG affected
The windows are blown out in a number of floors in the ministries, as well as buildings nearby.

- Windows on the VG-building's facade to its ministries are blown out, and there are large amounts of glass and metal in the street, said Dagbladet reporter Harald Klungtveit, who is on site.

He was in the courthouse and heard a loud bang, and saw large amounts of dust that filled the street from the ministries. The level of injury is unclear, but several people will be injured.

- At least three people are injured, they get help from the public on site. The bleeding heavily from his head, he continued.

It is unclear what is going on inside the VG-house.

Henrik Bull jobs in Grubbegaten, near the government quarter.

- I heard a tremendous explosion and thought that now I only get out as fast as I can, Bull says to Dagbladet.

Large scale
The buildings in Market Street and Akersgata has received major damage.

- Windows on all Youngstorget is broken, and there are lots of ambulances outside. Fire alarm rings all the time in the National Theatre building, said Dagbladet reporter Line Brustad at 16 o'clock.

- All are chased away from the scene. There are many injured, and the stretchers and ambulances everywhere, says Dagbladet reporter Anne Marte Blindheim in the 16-time.

- There are lots of stores routes that are crushed by Yong Market and the main street. Police sealed off the area up at Aker Brygge, so there is no one who can get in, because they are afraid that there will be a bomb, says a police officer told Dagbladet.

Shops crushed
Buses and trams will be stopped.

The prime minister is safe, says Sindre Fossum Beyer, adviser to the Prime Minister's office, told Dagbladet.

- None of the political leadership of Petroleum and Energy is damaged, says political advisor Ivar married.

Liberal leader Trine Skei Grande is currently traveling in New Jersey, but have had contact with party colleagues in Oslo.
- I have talked with my people, and they report that the party offices are completely destroyed. Fortunately, most had gone for the day, but one of our employees have been cuts. He's been taken care of by medical personnel, says Grande to Dagbladet.

The head of the Home Guard Department HV02, which is responsible for counter-terrorism preparedness at the ministries and Parliament, awaiting mobilization orders.
______________________________________________________________

(AP) The area around the government quarter and Akersgata looks like a war zone, after that it was a powerful bomb explosion on Friday afternoon.

A violent explosion hit at 15.20 o'clock today the government quarter in downtown Oslo, and spent much of its ministries in the gravel.

More people should police be killed and injured in the violent explosion, but how many have died is still unclear. Police confirmed at 17.00-the time that it was a bomb caused the explosion.

- Large parts of the city center is evacuated, and police urge the public not to stay in Oslo. Police also ask that pulbikum limits the use of mobile phone, enter the police in a statement.

War Zone

Much of the government building looks like a war zone. It is still damaged in the area, and people carried away by rescue crews. Immediately after the explosion, one could see a lifeless person, hanging out a window. Men and women covered in blood and took out of the affected buildings.

Outside the Ministry of Finance put more people completely covered in blood. At least one similar was covered by a bloody blanket.

Several of the injured who were taken away by ambulances were apparently very serious injuries.

- Crushed

It overturns still smoke out of the buildings on site.

The building that houses, among other things, the Prime Minister's office has suffered major damage.

Entire ministries are devastated - the whole building smashed from top to bottom.

VG Nett reporter Jarle Brenna was at work in the Oslo courthouse when the explosion went off.

When I came around the corner into Akersgata by VG-house was a lot of injured people on the sidewalk. There were no ambulances or police at the site yet. A number of shocked people walked around and found it difficult to understand what had happened, telling VG Nett reporter.

At ground level, one can see the cross again the building that houses one of the office of Jens Stoltenberg. By Stortorvet is broken panes of glass magazine. The entire border is the the pieces of glass and it breaks sharply from the tower block, where the Prime Minister's office is located.

- Prime Minister of Safety

It is still unclear what caused the explosion.

VG-built at Aker Brygge, and many other nearby Bygnes was evacuated after the explosion.

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg will be in safety.

- The only thing I can say is that the prime minister is safe, says political advisor Sindre Fossum Beyer to VG Nett.

All the windows in nearby buildings were blown out and there is dust, smoke and plaster in the air. There are people in the area with blood and kuttskdaer. Children cry and many have panicked.

Unclear cause

People trying to get the phones to get their loved ones, while the flow to several fire engines and ambulances.

Police chase now people from Akersgata and away from the government quarter and the areas hardest hit.

A police officer who drove the crowds from Akersgata told AP:

- We do not know what's going on yet so just got you away from Karl Johan, or limit.

In Industry and Trade Ministry, all the windows blown out.

- Entire quarter toasted

An eyewitness told the AP that he heard an extreme explosion.

- It was like the whole block shook. So I ran down to see what had happened and there were broken windows everywhere, says eyewitness to the AP.

From a distance there was a visible plume from the city center.

Emergency Medical Communications Centre (AMK) at Ullevål hospital has yet no overview of the damage.

- The situation is currently very difficult, all guard leader can say before he ends the call to give priority to emergency personnel.

All personnel are on site

- There has been a powerful explosion in the government quarter. The police was notified of this at 15.26 this afternoon.
All rescue personnel are on site and the police are trying to get an overview of the situation, says press officer Unni Grøndal the Oslo police said in a statement.

Police District staff is called.

Guard Leader of the Oslo fire and rescue center has the following short, hectic comment:

- All we know is that there has been a huge explosion in the city center. It's a great extent of damage, and we have all available resources from across the agency out.

Military police in the streets

Outside the government building helped the military police and security guards from several different weights to the company to evacuate the injured and get away curious and shocked onlookers from the area. Currently, neither the Civil Defence or the Royal Norwegian Navy formally asked to assist.

- This is basically a police matter, but we can be involved at a later date, said Duty press Dag Aamoth in the military.

- We are at this point not involved in connection with the work after the explosion, the AP reported at the Civil Defence.


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## synrgy

Here's an English article from CNN:

Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway - CNN.com


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## Murmel

Holy shit, we've had some bombs going off in Malmö too the past year, it's quite many actually. Nothing even close to this severe though.


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## Northern

It seems that miraculously few people has died so far considering that a lot of Buildings are extremely damaged. That being said, the building that has actually been blown up has not been searched yet, so probably, that is where most of the casualties are.


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## pink freud

WHAT THE FUCK:

Shooting in Utøya north of Oslo - Today 22 Jul 2011


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## Northern

While total chaos in Oslo, a man disguised as a police-officer has gotten in to a summercamp filled with politically active youth and startet shooting. This may be planned together with the terrorist attack. So a man shooting a gun, on an island full of children and youth that has no way of escaping.

What a day to be Norwegian


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## Northern

pink freud said:


> WHAT THE FUCK:
> 
> Shooting in Utøya north of Oslo - Today 22 Jul 2011



you beat me to it, but yeah, what the fuck and so on....


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## Jakke

Fuck me sideways.... I'm sure that everyones thoughts are with you, neighbours. This is the time for Scandinavia and all of Europe to stand together and do not faulter under anti-democratic pressure.

Det jag tänkte direkt var: fan, tänk om detta hände i Stockholm förra december... Mina och alla andra svenskars tankar är med er...


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## Northern

Also, a group called "Helpers of Global Jihad" have claimed they did it. This might be bullshit though. Also Police confirmed that many more are dead but have not been moved due to forensic reasons.


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## pink freud

Northern said:


> Also, a group called "Helpers of Global Jihad" have claimed they did it. This might be bullshit though. Also Police confirmed that many more are dead but have not been moved due to forensic reasons.



What I found regarding that:
Bomb blast kills at least two people in Oslo

From that it seems that people are speculating that HoGJ might have done it, but nobody has yet claimed responsibility.


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## Goatchrist

I wish Norway the best in this hard situation.

But guys, be careful blaming anybody. I always think of the train incident in Spain where false organisations were blamed intentionally.


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## Northern

pink freud said:


> What I found regarding that:
> Bomb blast kills at least two people in Oslo
> 
> From that it seems that people are speculating that HoGJ might have done it, but nobody has yet claimed responsibility.



The part about two being killed is total BS though. Police just held a press conference. They said there are lots of dead people inside the damaged buildings that has yet to be added to the statistics. 

Also, though still unconfirmed by police, 4-5 people have been shot, possibly killed, on the summercamp for youth supporting the Labour Party. Police is going in hard with guns and bulletproof wests and what not. The shooting is so fierce that they cannot land choppers or anything. Getting the news as i write now that a man was just arrested for the shooting.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone

I just saw this on the local news, this is just horrible.

My thoughts are with you and the rest of your country.


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## highlordmugfug




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## pink freud

So they caught the guy who was the shooter, and he's claiming that two more attacks will occur. Can't find a link yet.


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## chronocide

I see the Prime Minister was meant to be either in his office or at the summer camp today, so they seem likely to be linked.

I fear there may be some sad related deaths with kids trying to flee the shooting by swimming back to the mainland, which is a couple of miles in cold water in a panic.

What a shit day.


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## vampiregenocide

What the hell is wrong with people? Makes me embarassed for my race that we can do such sickening things.


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## chronocide

How are gun control laws in Norway? Maybe some tightening of them will happen if they're lax. It's no consolation but it's the one good thing that came from the Dunblane tragedy.

You can understand the thinking that goes into bombing governmental buildings, as horrific as it still is, but stomping around shooting at kids? Fucking hell.


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## Jakke

chronocide said:


> How are gun control laws in Norway? Maybe some tightening of them will happen if they're lax. It's no consolation but it's the one good thing that came from the Dunblane tragedy.
> 
> You can understand the thinking that goes into bombing governmental buildings, as horrific as it still is, but stomping around shooting at kids? Fucking hell.



From what I gather, very strict.


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## Northern

chronocide said:


> How are gun control laws in Norway? Maybe some tightening of them will happen if they're lax. It's no consolation but it's the one good thing that came from the Dunblane tragedy.
> 
> You can understand the thinking that goes into bombing governmental buildings, as horrific as it still is, but stomping around shooting at kids? Fucking hell.



They are as strict as possible. Problem is, they are so tight that the police even needs special permision to use guns, so when someone has gotten hold of one, the police have a problem.


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## Cyntex

I just read that according to multiple sources there are now 7 casualties at the bomb site and 4 casualties and possibly more at the youthcamp


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## Northern

Updates from the shooting at the youth-summercamp:
20-30 people aged 15-20 yars old might have been killed.


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## pink freud

Northern said:


> Updates from the shooting at the youth-summercamp:
> 20-30 people aged 15-20 yars old might have been killed.



Word has it the dude had a full multi-gun arsenal.


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## klami

The whole thing sickens me. How people are able to do this is well beyond me. 

My thoughts go out to all the people who are affected by this tragedy.


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## Northern

pink freud said:


> Word has it the dude had a full multi-gun arsenal.



For being Norway, a country that until now has been peaceful, and has only 4,5 million citizens, this is truly fucked up. Unimaginably fucked up. I have no words.


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## Cyntex

klami said:


> The whole thing sickens me. How people are able to do this is well beyond me.
> 
> My thoughts go out to all the people who are affected by this tragedy.



This. It gives me the chills.

Edit: They arrested the shooter and linked him to the bombing.


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## New Age Moron

Awful. I wish violence would just end.


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## GuitaristOfHell

My prayers for safety for everyone in Norway, This is strange... and very bad.


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## chronocide

So news sources are saying this is a domestic neo-nazi attack.


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## Grand Moff Tim

chronocide said:


> So news sources are saying this is a domestic neo-nazi attack.


 
Linkies?


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## MF_Kitten

Michael (cataclysmichael) is being interviewed by american television at the moment. Allen (dendroaspis) heard/felt the blast. I also have family down there that heard it. I don't know anyone that was close, other than Michael, who felt the blast more severly.

So far there was the blast and then a shooting at a summer camp for teenagers. Fucked up and ridiculous, seriously. Fuck this shit. And in my peaceful country. 

FUCK!


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## Jakke

One of the islamist groups that took responsebility has taken everything back...


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## Northern

chronocide said:


> So news sources are saying this is a domestic neo-nazi attack.



Speculations only. The guy arrested is now also believed to have parked the car with the bomb. The police know this guy to have connections and the guy is of what seems to be arabic decent.


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## MF_Kitten

chronocide said:


> So news sources are saying this is a domestic neo-nazi attack.



We haven't heard anything definite just yet, but it doesn't seem like it's coming from outside the country.

If this is true, then that's fucked. Neonazism is a known problem here, but THIS is something new, jesus! Shooting teenagers at a summer camp and blowing up the government buildings. Fuck this. Ironically this is the worst situation Norway has seen since the actual Nazis took over here in WWII.


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## Northern

MF_Kitten said:


> Michael (cataclysmichael) is being interviewed by american television at the moment. Allen (dendroaspis) heard/felt the blast. I also have family down there that heard it. I don't know anyone that was close, other than Michael, who felt the blast more severly.
> 
> So far there was the blast and then a shooting at a summer camp for teenagers. Fucked up and ridiculous, seriously. Fuck this shit. And in my peaceful country.
> 
> FUCK!



The blast shook my house quite bad. This was intense!


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## MF_Kitten

chronocide said:


> How are gun control laws in Norway? Maybe some tightening of them will happen if they're lax. It's no consolation but it's the one good thing that came from the Dunblane tragedy.
> 
> You can understand the thinking that goes into bombing governmental buildings, as horrific as it still is, but stomping around shooting at kids? Fucking hell.



Weapons are for hunting and target range shooting only here. Very tight and strict, no right to bear/carry arms.


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## Customisbetter

Best wishes to all Norwegians, Especially Micheal and Morten. This shit is insane and I almost typed that I can't imagine the feeling, and then i remembered that just about every country has been bombed like this in my lifetime.  

This is a time for prayer...


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## MF_Kitten

Don't think about me, i'm far away, think about the OP, Michael, Allen, and all the others. My family is okay, but so far there are a bunch of confirmed deaths, and shit is grim.


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## chronocide

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Linkies?



None, sorry. I'm on my phone cause I'm at a gig, a friend who I was talking to about it earlier as he's doing a phd on Islamic terrorism text me as he's been following news stories all day.


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## pink freud

Best I could find regarding the shooter/bomber was an article including twitter stuff:
Norway: 'Nine or 10' killed in island youth camp shooting - Channel 4 News


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## Northern

Press conference right now. The fucked up sicko that shot kids was at least a Norwegian citizen, though nothing is said about his decent. This is just waaaay too fucked up.


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## Xarn

chronocide said:


> None, sorry. I'm on my phone cause I'm at a gig, a friend who I was talking to about it earlier as he's doing a phd on Islamic terrorism text me as he's been following news stories all day.



There's no information on this any of this yet, first they believed it to be islamic extremists due to Norways involvement in the bombings of Libya but now it seems to have switched to it being non-foreign.

As for it being neo-nazi I wouldn't believe that, not sure about Norway but those sort of movements are usually controlled very hard and each member is well-known by the Police and other security units. Besides strict weapon laws and stuff like that makes it very hard for anyone to just grab a gun and go on a killing spree. Not sure about bombs but I would guess it's very hard to make unless you got connections, my bet is whoever is behind the attacks certainly has strong foreign connections to be able to pull something like this off.


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## pink freud

This is speculation, but wouldn't this guy have to be well connected?

He apparently knew the schedule of the Prime Minister enough to target two likely locations the man was supposed to be, and managed to obtain a collection of highly restricted firearms and a police uniform. That just doesn't sound like something the average Jöe could do.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone

Press Conference with English translator-BBC News - Oslo bomb - latest updates


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## Grand Moff Tim

Xarn said:


> Not sure about bombs but I would guess it's very hard to make unless you got connections


 

Not really, dude.














Sadly, it's all too easy.


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## pink freud

That's in America though. I get the impression that the social policies on potentially destructive materials are a bit different between Norway and America.


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## Jakke

Not really, I could probably make a pipe-bomb right now from stuff around the house...

If people just knew how easily a lunetic could get hold of explosives..


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## chronocide

True, but the IRA managed plenty atrocities in the UK under extreme surveillance and with entire police departments dedicated to them.

Sadly if cunts have a mind to do horrible things, they'll find means.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone

People don't seem to realise how easy it is to get horribly destructive things such as IEDs. Have you ever heard of a Moltov Cocktail? Granted, this was bigger, but it's a perfect example of how it is very easy to make explosives.


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## Grand Moff Tim

pink freud said:


> That's in America though. I get the impression that the social policies on potentially destructive materials are a bit different between Norway and America.


 
Beats me. The OKC bombing was an Ammonium Nitrate based bomb, and that stuff's popular with bombers because it's made from fertilizer, which isn't really super hard to get your hands on in most places. I know some places have regulations in place, but a precursory internet search isn't bringing anything up about Norway.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Beats me. The OKC bombing was an Ammonium Nitrate based bomb, and that stuff's popular with bombers because it's made from fertilizer, which isn't really super hard to get your hands on in most places. I know some places have regulations in place, but a precursory internet search isn't bringing anything up about Norway.



It's pretty much just igniting the fertilizer and getting it to the right temperature.

The amount in fertilizers has been reduced in most countries after the Texas City Disaster.

Texas City Disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MF_Kitten

Fertilizer bombs are easy to make. Just rob the local farm or something if you don't want anything on record. Then get diesel.


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## Jakke

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Beats me. The OKC bombing was an Ammonium Nitrate based bomb, and that stuff's popular with bombers because it's made from fertilizer, which isn't really super hard to get your hands on in most places. I know some places have regulations in place, but a precursory internet search isn't bringing anything up about Norway.



Otherwise you could use potassium permanganate, couple that with a very powerful reductant, like a compound with sodium, and you've got a helluva bomb


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## Grand Moff Tim

The FBI is now watching all of us.


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## ArkaneDemon

Grand Moff Tim said:


> The FBI is now watching all of us.



Especially after this post:



MF_Kitten said:


> Fertilizer bombs are easy to make. Just rob the local farm or something if you don't want anything on record. Then get diesel.


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## pink freud

Jakke said:


> Otherwise you could use potassium permanganate, couple that with a very powerful reductant, like a compound with sodium, and you've got a helluva bomb



But will it djent?







Djent is now in the FBI database


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## Hemi-Powered Drone

Jakke said:


> Otherwise you could use potassium permanganate, couple that with a very powerful reductant, like a compound with sodium, and you've got a helluva bomb



You could also cause a shit load of damage with some thermite. Just aluminum shavings and iron oxide shavings, then ignite it with a sparkler.



















Hi FBI! 


This is going way off topic.


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## Northern

I am sorry about interrupting your fun time teaching the world about explosives.

The police just said that the man is of Norwegian decent, making this even more absurd. Puts me at ease though, if this is not some beef we have with extremists but just a single sick person.


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## Jakke

*EDIT* PC-mob took offence...

Someone actually was ignorant enough to believe I was "trying to act cool" in the thread about the murdering and maiming of my norwegian neighbours... If you really think that, it tells me more about you, and I actually feel sorry for you... 

I never thought I'd say this to a (probably) grown-up, but, *for shame*.


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## Jakke

Northern said:


> I am sorry about interrupting your fun time teaching the world about explosives.
> 
> The police just said that the man is of Norwegian decent, making this even more absurd. Puts me at ease though, if this is not some beef we have with extremists but just a single sick person.



That is at least among the disaster some good news, the least we need is more organized terrorism..


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## MF_Kitten

If the FBI is watching us for that, then they should really be concerned with watching all the tv shows on the discovery channel where i learned that!


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## pink freud

Jakke said:


> That is at least among the disaster some good news, the least we need is more organized terrorism..



It's kind of a double-edged sword. At least with an organization you know what you are dealing with. You can't really defend against the spontaneously crazy individuals.


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## Jakke

MF_Kitten said:


> If the FBI is watching us for that, then they should really be concerned with watching all the tv shows on the discovery channel where i learned that!



No harm really, since we're foreign citizens. I do not think the Swedish SÄPO are _that_ interested in me.

I don't know how zeleous the norwegians are though.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone

The police have found undetonated bombs on Utoeya, good thing they were never detonated.


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## Jakke

pink freud said:


> It's kind of a double-edged sword. At least with an organization you know what you are dealing with. You can't really defend against the spontaneously crazy individuals.



True' dat


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## MF_Kitten

Jakke said:


> No harm really, since we're foreign citizens. I do not think the Swedish SÄPO are _that_ interested in me.
> 
> I don't know how zeleous the norwegians are though.



No, no, of course not. It's such a common knowledge, and so easy to find out, and such a widely reported thing, that no-one is going to track us down for knowing it. That's just absurd.

I'm gunna go read up some more on the latest news now. Watch videos from the blast, guys, you suddenly understand how sick it was. Just ridiculous. Smashed windows in a 1 km radius, and shook houses in a 5 km radius or more.


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## pink freud

dragonblade629 said:


> The police have found undetonated bombs on Utoeya, good thing they were never detonated.



Hopefully those count as the two "promised attacks" that are/were still supposed to happen.


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## Jakke

MF_Kitten said:


> No, no, of course not. It's such a common knowledge, and so easy to find out, and such a widely reported thing, that no-one is going to track us down for knowing it. That's just absurd.
> 
> I'm gunna go read up some more on the latest news now. Watch videos from the blast, guys, you suddenly understand how sick it was. Just ridiculous. Smashed windows in a 1 km radius, and shook houses in a 5 km radius or more.



Of course not, they have better things to do, hopefully.

On topic, I think no-one can say it better than our foreign minister did, he said: In this moment, we are all norwegians.

And I can't agree more


----------



## Northern

Looks like the police actually have some clues now.
They are raiding a house in Oslo now after interrogating the guy they caught.

Much respect to everyone thats police in Norway today.

Vpnet politiaksjon mot hus knyttet til 32-ringen - nyheter - Dagbladet.no


----------



## Northern

Ok, this is morbid but it has to be posted.

This is the guy, about to kill a child. Dead people all around. 

http://i53.tinypic.com/23r263t.jpg


----------



## kruneh

That pic is beyond everything...


----------



## Chickenhawk

My thoughts are on your country, brother. 

Little bit of info I found:

Middle East Observatory Ansar al-jihad al-Alami issued an urgent alert to all Mujahedeen mobilize



> Abu Suleiman al-Naser from the Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami sent an urgent message on jihadist forums, to all jihadists around the globe to mobilize and prepare to wage jihad operations against the Zionist-crusader alliance.
> 
> Al-Naser added that he calls upon all jihadists to launch immediate and effective actions to prepare for "Ghazawat" against American and their allies in NATO interests around the world. He called on Muslims around the world and especially in the U.S. and Europe to contribute in these "Ghazawat".
> 
> Al-Naser asked all Muslims to stay away from institutions, embassies and all American and European places of interests around the world. The publication of a Press Release from the Mujahedeen confirming the death of Osama Ben Laden will be the trigger to start these attacks.



I'm sifting through some other info, and I'll be happy to share once I get verification on a few things (have to vet one of my sources).


----------



## Northern

Chickenhawk said:


> My thoughts are on your country, brother.
> 
> Little bit of info I found:
> 
> Middle East Observatory Ansar al-jihad al-Alami issued an urgent alert to all Mujahedeen mobilize
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sifting through some other info, and I'll be happy to share once I get verification on a few things (have to vet one of my sources).



Worth mentioning that there is a Norwegian guy arrested, he lives in the better part of town. More and more looks like this is either a mentally ill war-veteran or a right-wing-extremist.


----------



## Northern

Some more digging aound the internet;
A lot of people has stumpled upon a 10 year old article.
"23 year old Nazi arrested with dynamite and police uniforms".
The man arrested today is 32.
This could very well be the same man carrying out his plan.

https://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article231455.ece


----------



## Chickenhawk

Northern said:


> Worth mentioning that there is a Norwegian guy arrested, he lives in the better part of town. More and more looks like this is either a mentally ill war-veteran or a right-wing-extremist.



Very worth mentioning. I'm just sharing what I find, don't take everything (or anything) I say as gospel. 



a source that might not be reliable whatsoever said:


> Soon after the news broke, Britain's Sky News predicted that it was likely the attacks were carried out by a Norwegian far-right group which dislikes non whites in Norway. Since the held suspect is a 'white blonde man', Sky News may be right.



I'm going to check Sky News right now to see what they're talking about.

But, there's a couple Muslim forums that have a few members that are blatantly sharing their opinions on how attacks like these are 'justified and necessary'.

I'll shut up with my anti-Muslim stuff now, since it's very possible these attacks had nothing to do with Islam.


EDIT:

I'm starting to lean more towards this being an extremist-right winger.


----------



## Origin

This is horrible. I hope rescue efforts go well. Fuck all extremists on the face of the Earth, regardless of their background and regardless of their mental state. They should kill themselves before they hurt innocent people. If only the victims were so lucky. Fuck.


----------



## Jeggs

This is the fucker they say did it:

Anders Behring Breivik | Facebook


----------



## Northern

Jeggs said:


> This is the fucker they say did it:
> 
> Anders Behring Breivik | Facebook



He will have such a good time showing his face in the streets 

Then again, he hopefully won't be able to for some time.


----------



## chronocide

It's upsetting that there are still tons of news sources operating on the assumption that this has been carried out by Muslim extremists.

Terrorism! Must have been an arab.

Disgusting.

If only they could focus on sympathy for people effected by an atrocity, and not busy themselves with pinning blame on the current go-to villain.


----------



## MF_Kitten

Yep, heis aright wing conservative nationalist extremist christian neo nazi nutjob. 

Nynazist tatt med dynamitt og politiuniformer- Nyheter - Innenriks - Aftenposten.no this is ten years ago. Might have been him, as it all matches perfectly, age and all. Google translate that shit.

I can't bring mysellf to look at the pictures from utøya. Not yet at least. It's much too real still.

Edit: google translate will hate that site, as the formating is fucked. Oh well.

Second edit: i have no sources on him being a neo nazi, so unless they confirm it, i assume that's not the case. All i have on that is the above link that may or may not be him.


----------



## Mexi

chronocide said:


> It's upsetting that there are still tons of news sources operating on the assumption that this has been carried out by Muslim extremists.
> 
> Terrorism! Must have been an arab.
> 
> Disgusting.
> 
> If only they could focus on sympathy for people effected by an atrocity, and not busy themselves with pinning blame on the current go-to villain.



to be fair, in the case of the actual bombing in Oslo, various jihadist groups have *apparently* claimed responsibility for it.


----------



## chronocide

Dozens of groups claim responsibility for any and all terrorist attacks. The media knows better.

As I say, I just wish they could focus on the people effected until they have some evidence to go on. Rather than assumptions.


----------



## Mexi

chronocide said:


> The media knows better.



lol I'm quite sure of that but yeah, they make a living off sensationalist headlines and reactionary suggestions. news hasn't been about delivering any kind of valid, unbiased truth for quite some time now


----------



## chronocide

Why bother to justify their reactionism, then?


----------



## Mexi

hardly justifying, just calling it how I see it. until a thorough investigation has gone through, there is no way of knowing that the bombing *wasn't* perpetuated by some kind of extremist group. it's a little early to think we know all the facts here.


----------



## Overtone

The same thing happened with oklahoma city. Fuck the media anyway, i expect them to be greedy bastards looking fornthe next juicy story... They dont matter, just the victims, and the people who will lose their sense of security. It occurred to me that this kind of thing happens all the time in baghdad to people just as innocent, but after hearing about what a safe and open place norway is i feel bad for how vulnerble everybody must feel.


----------



## Mexi

exactly, in a few weeks time, no one in the media will give a fuck, while the people in Norway are still reeling from it all. all they care about is people buying their papers and tuning into their BS stories.


----------



## chronocide

Mexi said:


> hardly justifying, just calling it how I see it. until a thorough investigation has gone through, there is no way of knowing that the bombing *wasn't* perpetuated by some kind of extremist group. it's a little early to think we know all the facts here.




I dunno, responding to a post stating they shouldn't jump to conclusions with "well some Muslims have claimed responsibility!" reads like justification to me.

Anyway, hopefully more details emerge soon and effected people can attempt to make some sense of why a cunt did this.


----------



## Mexi

dont quote me if you're going to do it wrong. I said "various *jihadist* groups have *apparently* claimed responsibility for it." Not muslim. there's a difference. and just because tons of groups often take responsibility for any bombing around the world, doesn't mean that a couple of those cases have been verified, its all up in the air until the investigation goes through. ANYWAYS, I hope the international community rallies around Norway and help them in whatever capacity they can


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

Death toll raised to 80...

Police: At least 80 killed in youth camp shooting  | ajc.com


----------



## heavy7-665

dragonblade629 said:


> Death toll raised to 80...
> 
> Police: At least 80 killed in youth camp shooting .| ajc.com



Fuck....


----------



## leandroab

Aw fan...


----------



## Alimination

wow, I'm so sorry. I had no idea this happened, I'll look into it more.

Prayers goes out to your people


----------



## Jakke

Death toll at Utöya up to 84 people... Kids younger than me..


Yesterday was a bad day...

*EDIT* With regards to the earlier bomb discussion, the bomb was most probably an ammonium nitrate bomb, the suspect would have had access to large ammounts of fertilizers. He had a vegetable-growing company, and fertilizers are not controlled in Norway.


----------



## Northern

Jakke said:


> Death toll at Utöya up to 84 people... Kids younger than me..
> 
> 
> Yesterday was a bad day...



Holy shit, just woke up and saw the news.

So, he managed to kill 91 people by himself in an hour or so.
Thats insane, just fucking insane.
I probably know some of these people as a lot of my friends at least 
last year and the year before attended that camp.
This need to go away now.


----------



## MF_Kitten

So yeah, it's now obvious that it wasn't an islamist thing at all, but a lone norwegian right wing radical.

84 killed at utøya so far, 7 in e bombing. Same guy did both, yeah. 91 killed.

The details from the scene at utøya is hard as fuck. Just disgusting and intense. Video and pictures from the scene are hard to watch, with sceaming and crying teenagers around all the bodies.

He had called everyone to come over to him, because he had important information to tell them about the bombing that had just happened in the city, and when they were all gathered around him, he pulled an automatic weapon and started mowing them down while cheering. Then he ran down to the water where the kids were swimming away, and told them he was going to help them get away (they hadn't seen him yet), and when they came up on the beach he mowed them down too.

It's just disgusting and nauseating.


----------



## Jakke

The number of deaths will probably rise even more, I will not be surprised if ends with over 100...

The suspect has said in interrogation that he "wants to explain his actions". To me, there is nothing he can say..


----------



## MF_Kitten

Yeah, he definitely had the opportunity to kill that many, and they say they aren't done searching for bodies and counting those who have come in yet.

Apparently he was seen talking into a headset during the shooting. Many saw him do this. Possibly others involved in the killings?


----------



## Jakke

The scariest is that he also was unknown to the norwegian secret service.. 
The same as with the Oklahoma bombers, and the swedish laser-man..

He also critizised (sic) swedish newspapers for not being more critical to islam, it feels like this could just as well have happened here.


----------



## MF_Kitten

That would mean that the link i posted earlier wasn't this guy, although it sounds similar.

Seriously, how the fuck does one lone gunman plan and perform all this without any warning or signs? Christ. This guy must have been intelligent, well-informed, meticulous... I can't even imagine the mindset of this monster.


----------



## Northern

MF_Kitten said:


> That would mean that the link i posted earlier wasn't this guy, although it sounds similar.
> 
> Seriously, how the fuck does one lone gunman plan and perform all this without any warning or signs? Christ. This guy must have been intelligent, well-informed, meticulous... I can't even imagine the mindset of this monster.



It scares me that he can be so fucked up in his head, yet so intelligent.


----------



## Ardez

Northern said:


> It scares me that he can be so fucked up in his head, yet so intelligent.



True dat... fuck... this is so depressing guys... My thoughts are with you, Norway.


----------



## Jakke

He's most likely a psychopath, therefore bereft of all empathy...
He could of course have some sort of anti-social disorder, like sociopathy, but since he hasn't commited violent crimes before, that seems pretty unlikely.


----------



## Espaul

But have the police searched the R4 (government building)? Late last night they said they hadn't searched it yet because of uncertainty of the building's current state.

They also said there might be more people hurt there. Anyone knows?


----------



## daemon barbeque

This is soo fucked up! It's mind boggling how insane a person could be, calling kids to him and shoot them! Where is this world going to?


----------



## chronocide

He'll be out of jail in 21 years from his sentencing too, wont he?


----------



## Northern

chronocide said:


> He'll be out of jail in 21 years from his sentencing too, wont he?



Well, thats a possibility, but there are ways around this that I am sure the court will try to use so that he'll never see the light of day again. Also, he is a "Nazi" that has murdered children, in a jail full of people of arab and african ethnic decent, so my guess is that he'll be dead quite soon. And if he gets out, there are plenty of criminal gangs (mainly immigrants) that will do the job.


----------



## Northern

Sorry. Double post


----------



## Jakke

Plus, he'll get 21 years just for the bombing, he'll get a lot more for the shootings.

But yeah, he'll be dead pretty soon.


----------



## chronocide

Jakke said:


> Plus, he'll get 21 years just for the bombing, he'll get a lot more for the shootings.
> 
> But yeah, he'll be dead pretty soon.




But I thought you served them in tandem in Norway, and the maximum sentence is 21 years. So even if you received 21 years twice, or 21 years for every individual murder at the shooting, he'd still only serve 21.

Admittedly my understanding of this is based only on articles surrounding Varg Vikernes and how he was convicted of various crimes with separate sentences totally more than 21 years, but was never in any danger of serving longer than that.


----------



## Jakke

chronocide said:


> But I thought you served them in tandem in Norway, and the maximum sentence is 21 years. So even if you received 21 years twice, or 21 years for every individual murder at the shooting, he'd still only serve 21.
> 
> Admittedly my understanding of this is based only on articles surrounding Varg Vikernes and how he was convicted of various crimes with separate sentences totally more than 21 years, but was never in any danger of serving longer than that.



Makes sense, he would get more than 21 in Sweden... But I realize how stupid it is to do like I did

But he has effectively a death sentence over him.


----------



## Schmeer

chronocide said:


> But I thought you served them in tandem in Norway, and the maximum sentence is 21 years. So even if you received 21 years twice, or 21 years for every individual murder at the shooting, he'd still only serve 21.
> 
> Admittedly my understanding of this is based only on articles surrounding Varg Vikernes and how he was convicted of various crimes with separate sentences totally more than 21 years, but was never in any danger of serving longer than that.



Yep, he'll get a maximum of 21 years no matter how many cases he's convicted of.. Worst thing is the way the prison system works here he'll be out in about 12 years since one year in prison =/= one calender year.


----------



## MF_Kitten

He won't be done with only the jail time though. There's usually more to it. They don't just let them go after something like this.

They are saying that there might be a second shooter, as some observed him talking into a headset mic during the shooting, and others say there were two separate shooters.

Edit: man, the prime minister is obviously shaken as fuck by this, in the first interview yesterday only hours after, he was sweating as all hell, he was swallowing a lot, speaking very straightforward. In the prss conference his eyes were glazed and teary, and now he is being interviewed after having met and spoken to survivors and parents etc. And he is struggling to speak. These are people he knew, and he started his political life on that very camp, and has been there every summer since the 70's, and so it hits really close for him.


----------



## daemon barbeque

I think it's time for the mods to change the thread title.
It's not Terrorists attack Norway, It's a Dickhead maniac attack his own people. Or more Norwagian Dickhead Maniacs attackes their own people.
Maybe, Extreme Rightwing Christian should be added to wipe some "All terrorists are muslims" information form the common memory.


----------



## Sollesnes

Schmeer said:


> Yep, he'll get a maximum of 21 years no matter how many cases he's convicted of.. Worst thing is the way the prison system works here he'll be out in about 12 years since one year in prison =/= one calender year.



Depends.
Norway has a system that in some cases can be similar to the one they have in Canada. You will -not- get out of prison as long as you can be considered a danger to society. Meaning, if after 21 years he is still regarded as a threat to society, he will not be released. So technically, he -can- serve for life.


----------



## Northern

daemon barbeque said:


> I think it's time for the mods to change the thread title.
> It's not Terrorists attack Norway, It's a Dickhead maniac attack his own people. Or more Norwagian Dickhead Maniacs attackes their own people.
> Maybe, Extreme Rightwing Christian should be added to wipe some "All terrorists are muslims" information form the common memory.



I agree, even though him being Norwegian still makes him a terrorist. But I guess people get the wrong idea from the title, so if a mod could be kind enough to change it to something appropriate that would be great.


----------



## MF_Kitten

daemon barbeque said:


> I think it's time for the mods to change the thread title.
> It's not Terrorists attack Norway, It's a Dickhead maniac attack his own people. Or more Norwagian Dickhead Maniacs attackes their own people.
> Maybe, Extreme Rightwing Christian should be added to wipe some "All terrorists are muslims" information form the common memory.



There is a possibility of there being two shooters, so the title would be accurate then. These are terrorists. Maybe not middle eastern ones, maybe not brown ones, maybe not muslim ones, but terrorists nonetheless.


----------



## MF_Kitten

Sollesnes said:


> Depends.
> Norway has a system that in some cases can be similar to the one they have in Canada. You will -not- get out of prison as long as you can be considered a danger to society. Meaning, if after 21 years he is still regarded as a threat to society, he will not be released. So technically, he -can- serve for life.



Yeah, there is such a thing as a life sentence, even though it's not directly applied.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

The death toll is now 91. This is pretty messed up.


----------



## MF_Kitten

Yeah. 84 shot and killed at the Utøya youth camp, and 7 in the bombing.

Police currently don't THINK there was a second gunner, but they are working hard to find out if there was. The same goes for the claims of him talking into a headset mic. We still don't know that this is true, as eyewitness reports are extremely unreliable.


----------



## Schmeer

Sollesnes said:


> Depends.
> Norway has a system that in some cases can be similar to the one they have in Canada. You will -not- get out of prison as long as you can be considered a danger to society. Meaning, if after 21 years he is still regarded as a threat to society, he will not be released. So technically, he -can- serve for life.



True, but he will still receive a maximum of 21 years, that can be extended 5 years a time. Typically he would still be eligible for parole after about 10 years, but I don't see that happening here. Also he will have to be considered "sane" to get such a sentence. Otherwise he'll be sentenced to treatment of some sorts.

This will be a true test for our courts and our penal system. There will be a lot of people demanding blood, and I can't say I blame them.


----------



## daemon barbeque

MF_Kitten said:


> Yeah. 84 shot and killed at the Utøya youth camp, and 7 in the bombing.
> 
> Police currently don't THINK there was a second gunner, but they are working hard to find out if there was. The same goes for the claims of him talking into a headset mic. We still don't know that this is true, as eyewitness reports are extremely unreliable.



He also may recording what is happening through a bluetooth device, adding comments and stuff.


----------



## Cyntex

91 people died?! That is fucking insane, think of all the families that he single handedly destroyed.. I was working today so I didnt get the news, but shit turned out to be even worse than I could imagine.. 

Even if he would get a life sentence that won't bring back those people, I can;t even think of an appropiate (not sure if its the right word im looking for) sentence.


----------



## BabUShka

This is horrible.. 
Over 90 people dead, most of them children and yound students. 
A quick update for those who doesnt know the details: 
This 32 years old (etnic Norwegian) traitor and nazi blows up a car in the capital of Norway, Oslo. Later the same man goes to a (peaceful)political summer camp for children, students and other youngs and just starts chasing and shooting people with an automatic gun. Almost 90 people shot and dead. Most of them are under 30 years old. 
Man got cought yesterday and police knows his motives. Sadly the Norwegian law system is really kind. 

This is really, really horrible and the whole nation is in tears. No one of my relatives or friends got hurt, but this is a happening that really touch all of our hearts.


----------



## BucketheadRules

Cyntex said:


> Even if he would get a life sentence that won't bring back those people, I can;t even think of an appropiate (not sure if its the right word im looking for) sentence.



I'm not pro-death sentence as a whole, but I've always thought that people like this are beyond rehabilitation. Locking them up costs the taxpayers money (and some of them will have been affected by his crimes, remember), and he'll get out in a few years anyway because Norway's sentencing is so gutless.

In some, rare, cases like this one, with mass murder etc., the best thing they can do is just kill them. This guy will obviously never be able to make a positive contribution to society. He took 91 lives from totally innocent people, so it makes sense to me that the least they can do is take his.

*DISCLAIMER*

I'm not an extremist about this as a whole. I certainly don't believe that the death sentence is the best option for many things. In my opinion it should only ever be used in rare, very extreme cases like this, ie serial killing, mass-murder, serial rape or whatever. Cases where the sick fuck who did it is totally beyond help.


----------



## BabUShka

Especially when it comes to murdering children..
Imo no human can descide if another person is supposde to live or die. But when it comes to murdering children; Those kind of murderers doesnt belong among us. they are not even worthy enough to be called animals.


----------



## daemon barbeque

BabUShka said:


> This is horrible..
> Over 90 people dead, most of them children and yound students.
> A quick update for those who doesnt know the details:
> This 32 years old (etnic Norwegian) traitor and nazi blows up a car in the capital of Norway, Oslo. Later the same man goes to a (peaceful)political summer camp for children, students and other youngs and just starts chasing and shooting people with an automatic gun. Almost 90 people shot and dead. Most of them are under 30 years old.
> Man got cought yesterday and police knows his motives. Sadly the Norwegian law system is really kind.
> 
> This is really, really horrible and the whole nation is in tears. No one of my relatives or friends got hurt, but this is a happening that really touch all of our hearts.



Glad to hear you and your beloved once are safe man!
This Maniac should be work till he dies digging tunnels with his hands for infrastructure, and get shot with plastic ammunition everyday, to remind him what he did. The pain will remain till he dies, and he will serve the families and everyone else by building the infrastructure!


----------



## BucketheadRules

daemon barbeque said:


> Glad to hear you and your beloved once are safe man!
> This Maniac should be work till he dies digging tunnels with his hands for infrastructure, and get shot with plastic ammunition everyday, to remind him what he did. The pain will remain till he dies, and he will serve the families and everyone else by building the infrastructure!



Nah, just pull the plug on him. Subhuman Nazi scum like this don't deserve the privilege of being alive.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

daemon barbeque said:


> I think it's time for the mods to change the thread title.
> It's not Terrorists attack Norway, It's a Dickhead maniac attack his own people. Or more Norwagian Dickhead Maniacs attackes their own people.
> Maybe, Extreme Rightwing Christian should be added to wipe some "All terrorists are muslims" information form the common memory.





Northern said:


> I agree, even though him being Norwegian still makes him a terrorist. But I guess people get the wrong idea from the title, so if a mod could be kind enough to change it to something appropriate that would be great.





My condolences to all the people and families who were destroyed, and to all the people of Norway in these dark hours. May the recovery be smooth and quick for your nation and its people.


----------



## daemon barbeque

MaxOfMetal said:


> My condolences to all the people and families who were destroyed, and to all the people of Norway in these dark hours. May the recovery be smooth and quick for your nation and its people.



Thanx Max!


----------



## Jakke

Number of dead are now up to 92...

The police are now pretty sure that the bombing was a diversion, and that the youth camp was the real target.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

Alimination said:


> wow, I'm so sorry. I had no idea this happened, I'll look into it more.
> 
> Prayers goes out to your people




Yeah, that part makes me a bit angry at the American media. This got so little coverage unless you went looking for it, which is kind of sad considering how big this is.


----------



## Ryan-ZenGtr-

People will be analysing this unique mind for a long time to come. 

My heart goes out to the people of Norway.


----------



## Cyntex

BucketheadRules said:


> I'm not pro-death sentence as a whole, but I've always thought that people like this are beyond rehabilitation. Locking them up costs the taxpayers money (and some of them will have been affected by his crimes, remember), and he'll get out in a few years anyway because Norway's sentencing is so gutless.
> 
> In some, rare, cases like this one, with mass murder etc., the best thing they can do is just kill them. This guy will obviously never be able to make a positive contribution to society. He took 91 lives from totally innocent people, so it makes sense to me that the least they can do is take his.
> 
> *DISCLAIMER*
> 
> I'm not an extremist about this as a whole. I certainly don't believe that the death sentence is the best option for many things. In my opinion it should only ever be used in rare, very extreme cases like this, ie serial killing, mass-murder, serial rape or whatever. Cases where the sick fuck who did it is totally beyond help.



On one hand I agree to a certain extent, but in my eyes that would be too easy and soft for him. Sure you could give him a lethal injection or send him to the gas-chamber but in my eyes that just doesn't quite do it.

On a other note, it's weird to see a lot of folks around here (NL) are making a fuzz about Amy Winehouse right now while I haven't read a single thing about the massacre not even 1000 miles from here...


----------



## Jakke

Cyntex said:


> On a other note, it's weird to see a lot of folks around here (NL) are making a fuzz about Amy Winehouse right now while I haven't read a single thing about the massacre not even 1000 miles from here...



That's insane... But one of the curses of modern society is that our prioreties are sometimes waaay off...


----------



## BucketheadRules

Cyntex said:


> On one hand I agree to a certain extent, but in my eyes that would be too easy and soft for him. Sure you could give him a lethal injection or send him to the gas-chamber but in my eyes that just doesn't quite do it.



Wow... I was expecting people to neg me for being too harsh, apparently I'm not being harsh enough!


----------



## Dvaienat

What a terrible thing to happen. I feel very sorry both for the victims and the families of people killed. Targeting children is terrible. 

Honestly, I don't feel we should waste our kindness on such an evil man. I don't support the death penalty because there can be so many complications regarding evidence etc, and many criminals can be rehabilitated and given a second chance in society.. but in this case it is clear as day he is guilty and obviously such a person cannot be rehabilitated. Off with his head.

Nazism is possibly one of the worst beliefs one can come across.


----------



## Jakke

BucketheadRules said:


> Wow... I was expecting people to neg me for being too harsh, apparently I'm not being harsh enough!



I could, if you want me to...



Otherwise, hold some impromptu chemistry, worked for me..


----------



## Cyntex

Jakke said:


> That's insane... But one of the curses of modern society is that our prioreties are sometimes waaay off...



Well, in their defence, it was'nt a feature on MTV...

Heh nah, people are just desensitized, yesterday was yesterday....
Most likely I am the insane one in their eyes for caring about people I never heard of or never saw. It's the same with the thousands of people starving to death right now.



BucketheadRules said:


> Wow... I was expecting people to neg me for being too harsh, apparently I'm not being harsh enough!



Well, don't get me wrong, essentially I am not pro-death, but imagine it was your son, daughter, sister, brother or whatever person you care for be it someone you know, would you be fine with the convicted getting off that easy, I mean his life is over anyway. 

These things don;t happen that much in Europe, but in most cases I have read about (psycho shootouts) the guy more often than not kills himself to avoid other repercussions.

Even being harsh, like say going medieval on his ass, stoning him to death for example which is not a uncommon thing in this world, would still not bring your loved ones back. Bear in mind he didnt kill almost 100 people, he wrecked a lot more lives than that. I think whatever the punishment is, it still would not be enough. 

On the other hand, where were his friends and family to take notice of this strange behaviour, they might have prevented this from happening.


----------



## Furtive Glance

My sister lives there, and both my parents are visiting for 3 weeks. I'm sure they're fine, but this is just really unexpected and completely, frustratingly, infuriatingly shocking.

My deepest condolences to all those affected.


----------



## Jakke

Cyntex said:


> Well, in their defence, it was'nt a feature on MTV...
> 
> Heh nah, people are just desensitized, yesterday was yesterday....
> Most likely I am the insane one in their eyes for caring about people I never heard of or never saw. It's the same with the thousands of people starving to death right now



Point to you Sir

I would actually take it a step further and say that people are stupified, they do not even remotely concern themselves with what's happening in the world.

We took a weekly quiz in high-school about news for the week. I won every time because, I kid you not, I was the only one that could be bothered with watching the news...


----------



## BucketheadRules

Jakke said:


> We took a weekly quiz in high-school about news for the week. I won every time because, I kid you not, I was the only one that could be bothered with watching the news...



I do watch the news but I wish I didn't most of the time, it makes me want to die. 

It makes me realise just what a shitty, fucked up place the world is.


----------



## Jakke

BucketheadRules said:


> I do watch the news but I wish I didn't most of the time, it makes me want to die.
> 
> It makes me realise just what a shitty, fucked up place the world is.



The same brah, but I can't stop watching, I'm a newsaholic...

Well, admitting it to oneself is the first step, right?


----------



## The Somberlain

First, I'd like to say that my heart goes out to the people of Norway and the people of the world. This is a tragedy we all share regardless of the soil it takes place on.

This hits especially hard for me personally because, for the most part, the society and culture of Scandinavia is an example to the world, imo.

Though I often advocate mercy over justice, this man is one of the few in the world that must die for the good of society. Make it horrible, to simulate the guilt he should be feeling.

It's mindblowing and heartbreaking that one man would kill so many innocent children merely because of their beliefs.


----------



## Rook

This is so messed up!

I just can't get my head around it. First people assume it's terrorism, but I can't help feel it's even more tragic that it's nothing to do with terrorism, and is just the result of a paranoid, apparently mentally ill human being taking out his anger on a bunch of innocent young people.

So sad, my thoughts and prayers are with all the families in Norway mourning their loss.

Just unreal.


----------



## Jakke

Fun111 said:


> This is so messed up!
> 
> I just can't get my head around it. First people assume it's terrorism, but I can't help feel it's even more tragic that it's nothing to do with terrorism, and is just the result of a paranoid, apparently mentally ill human being taking out his anger on a bunch of innocent young people.
> 
> So sad, my thoughts and prayers are with all the families in Norway mourning their loss.
> 
> Just unreal.



Don't want to point fingers, but this was a terrorist attack..
Muslims don't have monopoly on terrorism.


----------



## BucketheadRules

^Exactly.

Extreme Christians are just as scary as extreme Muslims.


----------



## Northern

Fun111 said:


> This is so messed up!
> 
> I just can't get my head around it. First people assume it's terrorism, but I can't help feel it's even more tragic that it's nothing to do with terrorism, and is just the result of a paranoid, apparently mentally ill human being taking out his anger on a bunch of innocent young people.
> 
> So sad, my thoughts and prayers are with all the families in Norway mourning their loss.
> 
> Just unreal.



I heard a interview today, with a 17 year old boy, that saw all his friends shot and had to play dead for an hour. He said the man had all the time in the world and just walked slowly by and shot people, twice, just to make sure. He even laughed and cheered when killing them. This boy obviously had his head fucked for life. There are now 600 kids that will probably never be the same, can never trust anyone the same way. This is just sickening.


----------



## Dvaienat

BucketheadRules said:


> ^Exactly.
> 
> Extreme Christians are just as scary as extreme Muslims.


 
Yeah, I think anything taken to extremity and fanaticalism is dangerous to society. In the case of Nazism, it is always dangerous.


----------



## CrushingAnvil

I thought the guy was a Neo-Nazi, not a right wing Christian.


----------



## pylyo

The guy even managed to upload a video on the youtube.


----------



## BigPhi84

CrushingAnvil said:


> I thought the guy was a Neo-Nazi, not a right wing Christian.






I wish that the thread title change didn't include "Christian." I really wanted to my a distasteful joke about Orb self-banning himself and rampaging in Norway as a result.  



My condolences to all our Nordic brothers on this forum. Can someone explain the political atmosphere in Norway that would cause this person to snap? Why did he hate the Labour Party so much? 


Every time I read another news site on this massacre, it seems so surreal, like a movie. I just can't fathom someone mowing down kids with an automatic weapon. It's like that one scene from Schindler's List.


Man, I wonder how easily something like this could happen in America, stemming from the current political climate.


----------



## CrushingAnvil

Chilling video to say the least, but he actually does have a little point about Muslim crime and rape in Scandinavia and Europe as we've discussed previously on this site.

It's fairly unlikely that the influx of Islamic peoples to Europe is an orchestrated attempt at covert invasion/colonisation but it does make you wonder. I think his aims are/were insane but his facts aren't exactly falsities...


----------



## daemon barbeque

CrushingAnvil said:


> I thought the guy was a Neo-Nazi, not a right wing Christian.





pylyo said:


> The guy even managed to upload a video on the youtube.




If this is really made by him, he is definetly christian. check 7:10

BTW, you can be Nazi and christian. There are so many of them in Sout Germany and Austria, even Switzerland.


----------



## Jakke

^Because he also is a christian fundamentalist, if islamists would have carried out the deed, it would probably say something about muslims.


----------



## CrushingAnvil

BigPhi84 said:


> I wish that the thread title change didn't include "Christian." I really wanted to my a distasteful joke about Orb self-banning himself and rampaging in Norway as a result.
> 
> 
> 
> My condolences to all our Nordic brothers on this forum. Can someone explain the political atmosphere in Norway that would cause this person to snap? Why did he hate the Labour Party so much?
> 
> 
> Every time I read another news site on this massacre, it seems so surreal, like a movie. I just can't fathom someone mowing down kids with an automatic weapon. It's like that one scene from Schindler's List.
> 
> 
> Man, I wonder how easily something like this could happen in America, stemming from the current political climate.



The amount of Islamic peoples in Scandinavia IS rising and, from what I have observed, the crimes specific to that demographic are pretty horrible. I guess his paranoia wasn't completely unwarranted. I'm not saying he was right in murdering a hundred people, I guess those statistics just got to him in very deep seeded way.

I really don't mean to dignify or justify his actions but:







Granted I haven't read a legitimate news article/report on this, but apparently this kind of thing happens now in Norway and Sweden.

Edit: The weird thing is that apparently most of the victims weren't Muslim - otherwise the reports would have said so.


----------



## Customisbetter

BigPhi84 said:


> Man, I wonder how easily something like this could happen in America, stemming from the current political climate.



It only takes one person, and America has a much larger population.


----------



## MF_Kitten

I am wondering why so many are saying this was a mental case, not terrorism, etc. Do they mean to imply muslim jihadists aren't mental cases? Or that this guy wasn't a rterrorist? I think both are true in both cases.

Both are caused by extremist views used to justify unspeakable acts.


----------



## Rook

Jakke said:


> Don't want to point fingers, but this was a terrorist attack..
> Muslims don't have monopoly on terrorism.



I get your meaning, but I don't see it quite that way.

I'm not disagreeing with the muslim monopoly point btw, but it's difficult to see an anti-muslim racist almost randomly attacking a government body's youth association and blowing up a government street on a bank holiday as full blown political/religious terrorism on the same grounds as previous 'terrorist attacks'.

Totally get your meaning though dude 

@Northern, dude that's just shocking, like something out of a horror film. I can't imagine what those kids went through. I've only come anywhere close to death once in a near miss traffic incident; that screwed my head up for weeks and nobody was even trying to kill me, I just can't imagine... Like I said, unreal...

As for the nazi/christian debate, Nazi's were essentially christian in belief at the core, Hitler never had any problems with _white_ christians and I believe he called himself one. Though his family lineage would in fact make him jewish... 
Religious extremism scares me regardless of the religion.


----------



## daemon barbeque

CrushingAnvil said:


> The amount of Islamic peoples in Scandinavia IS rising and, from what I have observed, the crimes specific to that demographic are pretty horrible. I guess his paranoia wasn't completely unwarranted. I'm not saying he was right in murdering a hundred people, I guess those statistics just got to him in very deep seeded way.
> 
> I really don't mean to dignify or justify his actions but:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted I haven't read a legitimate news article/report on this, but apparently this kind of thing happens now in Norway and Sweden.



How come this comes back to bash Islam again?
The guy is a fucking crusader! How many crusaders raped women in the middle east? How many "allied" soldier of the US and UK murdered and raped in Iraq and Afghanistan?

It really makes my head spin how you guys turn this dipshits actions into "Islam is bad" discussion. The "Christians" killed and raped more than "Muslims" throuhout the history, and it will not change anytime soon! The guy Glorifies Crusades and whatnot, and moved/acted accordingly!

Needless to say, both religions caused more death and rape than anything else, and I am not in favor in Islam. But stop the nonsense please!


----------



## Rook

^I'm not getting involved in the religious debate you mention, but on what grounds do you say 'the christians killed and raped more than muslims'? Seems a little odd a statement...


----------



## daemon barbeque

Fun111 said:


> Religious extremism scares me regardless of the religion.


----------



## daemon barbeque

Fun111 said:


> ^I'm not getting involved in the religious debate you mention, but on what grounds do you say 'the christians killed and raped more than muslims'? Seems a little odd a statement...



Well, Just check all wars between the two religions till yesterday. You can come out with a very easy calculation who killed more. You can add more than 5 million in the last 100 years.

Bosnia, Iraq, WWI and Ottoman empire, War against Turkey between 1918 and 1920, all the crusades, Spanish war against Arabs, french war agains Algeria ...
the list goes on!

Again, I am not a Muslim and I hate the religion through my veins. But I can't accept the baseless fear mongering and blindness against the crimes of "own religion". I find it to be very dangerous, since it brings more extremisim, more hate, more criminals like this dipshit!


----------



## JohnIce

When I heard about the death rate this morning, I actually got tears in my eyes... no one mentioned this in the thread so far (I think) but the youth camp was for left-wing party members. Now, both my sisters are members of the swedish equivalent and have been active there for several years, and hearing that ALL these kids who are just like my sisters apart from living only a few (!) miles west of here got murdered for their political views, I panicked in a way I've never done before.

This isn't just a horrible act of an insane person, it's also terrible blow against democracy. These kids got killed for their political views only.


----------



## JohnIce

When I heard about the death rate this morning, I actually got tears in my eyes... no one mentioned this in the thread so far (I think) but the youth camp was for left-wing party members. Now, both my sisters are members of the swedish equivalent and have been active there for several years, and hearing that ALL these kids who are just like my sisters apart from living only a few (!) miles west of here got murdered for their political views, I panicked in a way I've never done before.

This isn't just a horrible act of an insane person, it's also terrible blow against democracy. These kids got killed for their political views only.


----------



## CrushingAnvil

daemon barbeque said:


> How come this comes back to bash Islam again?
> The guy is a fucking crusader! How many crusaders raped women in the middle east? How many "allied" soldier of the US and UK murdered and raped in Iraq and Afghanistan?
> 
> It really makes my head spin how you guys turn this dipshits actions into "Islam is bad" discussion. The "Christians" killed and raped more than "Muslims" throuhout the history, and it will not change anytime soon! The guy Glorifies Crusades and whatnot, and moved/acted accordingly!
> 
> Needless to say, both religions caused more death and rape than anything else, and I am not in favor in Islam. But stop the nonsense please!



I wasn't speaking for myself, only for him and the video that was purportedly made by him.

Don't be so naive.


----------



## pylyo

Wanna look deeper into teh killa's mind? Here's a lot to read. Actually a whole book written by A.B. Breivik: 2083 - A European Declaration of Independence

2083+ +a+European+Declaration+of+Independence


The Political Thinking of Anders Behring Breivik | Doug Saunders


----------



## kung_fu

Wow, i woke up to this terrible news this morning (had been visiting someone so i was out of the loop). Nothing to add as far as details or speculation, but i'd like to give my condolences to the victims/their families and friends, and to all Norwegians and anybody else personally affected by this tragedy. My heart goes out to you.


----------



## Explorer

Regarding why our homegrown nuts don't go on killing rampages very often... I think that Gabrielle Giffords' shooting wasn't that long ago. 

Killing abortion doctors is another Christian extremist tactic.

Hmm... I can see how someone would think of terrorists as groups of people seeking the same goal, but a terrorist is someone who uses terror as a weapon. Tim McVay and others wanted to intimidate people of particular viewpoints in a broad way, as did this miserable specimen of humanity in Norway, as did Jared Loughner (Giffords' shooter).

Now that I'm thinking about it, it seems like most of the terrorism in the US is on the far right wing. Why is that? More support of guns? I just don't know....


----------



## daemon barbeque

CrushingAnvil said:


> I wasn't speaking for myself, only for him and the video that was purportedly made by him.
> 
> Don't be so naive.



Well, why do you bring this to a mass murder thread then? What was your reason for that?
I know you are a cool dude, but I still see a lot of subconcoius automated reactions to certain situations. You for instance, totally ignored his Crusader views and only concentraed on his points about Islam being violent, whereas he was showing pictures of Christian soldiers fighting, big kings who wiped Muslims out and honarable men in St. Georgs Armour. 
I think I am not Naive at all!


----------



## Jakke

Fun111 said:


> I get your meaning, but I don't see it quite that way.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with the muslim monopoly point btw, but it's difficult to see an anti-muslim racist almost randomly attacking a government body's youth association and blowing up a government street on a bank holiday as full blown political/religious terrorism on the same grounds as previous 'terrorist attacks'.
> 
> Totally get your meaning though dude



I was just following the main definitions, where terrorism is when:

A. Directed at civilians on a large scale
And
B. Done to spread fear among the populace and/or enforce a political agenda.

So I would say it's terrorism, in the same way as OKC was.

But I get what you mean, and I agree, it's very hard to classify this deed. But I'd say, if the norwegians prosecute the bastard as a terrorist, then it was a terrorist attack.


More info has been uncovered, turns out he despised nazis in the same way he hated commies, so calling him a nazi is not really relevant any more. If it helps, he refered to himself as a culture-conservative.


----------



## Waelstrum

Jakke said:


> But I get what you mean, and I agree, it's very hard to classify this deed. But I'd say, if the norwegians *persecute* the bastard as a terrorist, then it was a terrorist attack.



I realise this may seem petty/dumb but, I hope you meant prosecute there.


----------



## Jakke

Waelstrum said:


> I realise this may seem petty/dumb but, I hope you meant prosecute there.



Of course, cheers for the correction


----------



## Waelstrum

That's ok, I was really just checking that you weren't going to say that terrorists are some sort of persecuted minority that need protection.

Anyway, enough of the derailment of this thread. I don't think I have anything particularly helpful to add, other than my condolences to the victims both direct and indirect of the horrific event. It probably doesn't seem like much, as to everyone here I may as well be a bot for all the difference it makes. I appear only as a paragraph of text in a thread full of similarly sympathetic paragraphs of texts, but I will say this: The news of this event really shook me. As horrible as it sounds, I've grown complacent* towards this sort of story coming from America, Africa, and the Middle East, but the fact that such a peaceful nation as Norway has really made me reconsider how I view the world. Australia, being a relatively small country (population wise) hasn't had this sort of thing happen much (Only once in my lifetime, I think, and that was when I was too young to watch the news). I guess what I mean is that I never thought it could happen to me or anyone I know, but now it seems that has become a possibility (or to be more accurate, has always been a possibility, and I've only just realised.)

*Probably not the correct term, I just don't know how else to put it.


----------



## The Grief Hole

BucketheadRules said:


> ^Exactly.
> 
> Extreme Christians are just as scary as extreme Muslims.



Even more so in the light of this event, being that they are mainly concentrated in western countries. Though lets hope their numbers are few. Any news on why this guy did it?


----------



## Phrygian

this is a tragedy beyond words. i live in oslo, but i am home in northern norway on vacation when this all happens. I heard about 4-5 kids around the age of 8 that where on the island, collecting bottles as their summerjob. at least two of them where killed rumours have it. one surviver saw a kid running for his life and getting shot. This is so incredibly sad and tragic, i am in a loss of words


----------



## Jakke

Number of dead now up to 93...


----------



## Reion

Phrygian said:


> this is a tragedy beyond words. i live in oslo, but i am home in northern norway on vacation when this all happens. I heard about 4-5 kids around the age of 8 that where on the island, collecting bottles as their summerjob. at least two of them where killed rumours have it. one surviver saw a kid running for his life and getting shot. This is so incredibly sad and tragic, i am in a loss of words



It's so horrible 

I heard a heart wrenching story about kid hunkering behind rocks down by the shore, holding his mouth so as to not let a sound out as his dead girlfriend was floating past him in the water

This shit isn't supposed to happen to anyone, neither kids nor adults

And I just learned that a close friend of mine lost two of her friends on that island, and one more is in hospital, critically injured... It's just not fair to anyone

I'm just glad Norway has managed to keep together somewhat through all this.. But it's hard, especially when you read about things like this kids who probably lost between 15 and 20 friends 
How do you deal with something like that? Words become meaningless

There will never be "justice" in a case like this, even if they tortured him for a year before killing him, it wouldn't really make a difference, his mind is just too fucked up.

All we can really do, I think, is not let his ideals win. We can't, and wont let his racist extremist ideas take over in our society. If we do that, he's really won.


----------



## chronocide

CrushingAnvil said:


> the crimes specific to that demographic are pretty horrible.
> 
> Granted I haven't read a legitimate news article/report on this




Err....


----------



## BucketheadRules

The thing is, I posted my views here and most people seem to agree with them. Over at MusicRadar I posted the same thing (basically) and I got flamed for it. I don't know why... this is a funny one. The death penalty is a touchy situation and I don't think it should be used as anything other than a final recourse for very, very extreme cases like this one. It seems like I hold a fairly unpopular viewpoint.


----------



## chronocide

BucketheadRules said:


> The thing is, I posted my views here and most people seem to agree with them. Over at MusicRadar I posted the same thing (basically) and I got flamed for it. I don't know why... this is a funny one. The death penalty is a touchy situation and I don't think it should be used as anything other than a final recourse for very, very extreme cases like this one. It seems like I hold a fairly unpopular viewpoint.



I think to most sensible people it's an extremely unpopular viewpoint, but I think it's worth letting such statements slide in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy when many people aren't thinking very objectively.


----------



## Jakke

There has been some developments.

Breivik has both admitted to the bombing and the shooting, he claims he did it alone.

A special forces team of the norwegian police stormed a building in eastern Oslo this morning, those arrested there were released shortly afterwards, due to lack of evidence.


BTW, has anyone read the guys manifesto? That's some serious messed up stuff..


----------



## daemon barbeque

Jakke said:


> There has been some developments.
> 
> Breivik has both admitted to the bombing and the shooting, he claims he did it alone.
> 
> A special forces team of the norwegian police stormed a building in eastern Oslo this morning, those arrested there were released shortly afterwards, due to lack of evidence.
> 
> 
> BTW, has anyone read the guys manifesto? That's some serious messed up stuff..



Yes I did, and I was right about my assumptions. 
What a waste of Carbon, Nitrogen, Hidrogen, Oxygen, Money, Education and many other stuff.
What irks me most, is that I know he is not alone. I know this kind of people in Germany, I know them in France, I know them in Greece, I even know them from Netherlands and Switzerland.
This "Romantic" Fascism is not somewthing to underestimate. Since they have money, power, and the means.


----------



## MF_Kitten

His manifesto is 50% copy/pasted from wikipedia articles, and articles written by a different guy on document.no, where he was active and wrote stuff. Lots of other articles and things here and there were copied, and other types of writings have been used.

Then a part of it is copied from the Unabomber's writings, with the word "leftist" replaced with "marxist".


----------



## BucketheadRules

According to the BBC reports on TV, the death toll is now "at least 98".

Sad times


----------



## thatsanegative

daemon barbeque said:


> If this is really made by him, he is definetly christian. check 7:10
> 
> BTW, you can be Nazi and christian. There are so many of them in Sout Germany and Austria, even Switzerland.




This is a False statement because there is no such thing. 
Just because someone says they are something does not make it true.
Anyone who would call themselves a Christian ceased to be that the moment they thought to do such a thing. The very fact they would carry them out proves against such claims.
Ignorance and lies only perpetuate these kind of actions. These are two of the greatest crimes against humanity on earth.
To perpetuate them with ignorance makes you no better than the guy who did this horrific crime. So think about it.

This person was a fucked up piece of shit crazy loon plain and simple.


----------



## kung_fu

Not hating on christianity, but the bible is a confusing bag of mixed messages that can be interpreted and re-interpreted in many ways. As a result, you get a large variety of peole who identify themselves as Christians. You get tons of nice, loving and tolerant people yesway, but every once in a while you get one of these guys noway


----------



## chronocide

Yep. And huge swathes of Christians disagree with each other entirely on what even constitutes being a Christian. So I'm afraid you can't speak for all of Christiandom on what means someone is or is not a Christian.

I'm also afraid you can be a horrendous human and a Christian. Just as you can be a horrendous person and a Jew, or a horrendous person and a communist, or a horrendous person and an atheist and so on and so forth.


----------



## tuneinrecords

Northern said:


> Nope, just chaos.
> My guess is Khadaffi though.
> He prommised hell if anyone kept bombing Libya, and he attacked us because no one was expecting it to be here.



I had heard that maybe it was because they stopped bombing in Libya

» Norway Terror Attacks a False Flag Alex Jones&#039; Infowars: There&#039;s a war on for your mind!


----------



## thatsanegative

kung_fu said:


> Not hating on christianity, but the bible is a confusing bag of mixed messages that can be interpreted and re-interpreted in many ways. As a result, you get a large variety of peole who identify themselves as Christians. You get tons of nice, loving and tolerant people yesway, but every once in a while you get one of these guys noway




It's not really a bag of mixed messages - unless you are comparing Old Testament to New Testament - of which the later is for these times and what is most followed.

re-interpreting something based on "how they want to see it" is not truth.
And yes that is how these people come to "attempt" to associate with something. However that something is now not the same thing as the original therefore they have nothing to do with it. It is a lie.

Anyway heartfelt condolences to the people of Norway. 
Everyone in their nation is a victim with an atrocity such as this, as is the world as a whole.


----------



## daemon barbeque

thatsanegative said:


> This is a False statement because there is no such thing.
> Just because someone says they are something does not make it true.
> Anyone who would call themselves a Christian ceased to be that the moment they thought to do such a thing. The very fact they would carry them out proves against such claims.
> Ignorance and lies only perpetuate these kind of actions. These are two of the greatest crimes against humanity on earth.
> To perpetuate them with ignorance makes you no better than the guy who did this horrific crime. So think about it.
> 
> This person was a fucked up piece of shit crazy loon plain and simple.



Why? As a christian, you might be a bad person and not allowed to the "heavens", but you are still a christian!
And the same goes all other terrorists, who said they where Muslims and actually where doing crimes which are forbidden. Are they not Muslims?
Sorry man, I strongly disagree with you!
All Religions are Doctrines, and could cause these problems. Religion might be a life saver in some cases like Theresa, also can be a weapon as the Suicide bombers or this nutjob. They are both driven by the same faith, but react differently!


----------



## thatsanegative

chronocide said:


> Yep. And huge swathes of Christians disagree with each other entirely on what even constitutes being a Christian. So I'm afraid you can't speak for all of Christiandom on what means someone is or is not a Christian.
> 
> I'm also afraid you can be a horrendous human and a Christian. Just as you can be a horrendous person and a Jew, or a horrendous person and a communist, or a horrendous person and an atheist and so on and so forth.




I just did. And yes people would like to argue on what constitutes a Christian.
However it is stated very plainly so there really isn't much do be confused about. Those that would disagree on what it means or what it means have the answer right in front of them.

A person can be an asshat on any given day no matter what their religion or whatever yea sure - people are people. 

Quite simply someone who would murder innocent people like that is not a Christian Period. Maybe they were or _thought_ they were at one time, but somewhere a long the line they went astray - far far off the path and therefore are nothing of the sort anymore.

Not gonna argue it. The main point is Lies and Lying and Ignorance are a major cause these kinds of things in society. So let's not perpetuate them.


----------



## fwd0120

This has nothing to do with Christianity or any kind of religion, this guy was insane and should be killed with a rock.

The religion has nothing to do with it, the fact the he is frickin' insane is all. we have just as many of those guys on ALL sides of the equation.


----------



## Jakke

^^FYI, Theresa was a fanatical bastard


----------



## Jakke

Double post....


----------



## chronocide

thatsanegative said:


> I just did. And yes people would like to argue on what constitutes a Christian.
> However it is stated very plainly so there really isn't much do be confused about. Those that would disagree on what it means or what it means have the answer right in front of them.
> 
> A person can be an asshat on any given day no matter what their religion or whatever yea sure - people are people.
> 
> Quite simply someone who would murder innocent people like that is not a Christian Period. Maybe they were or _thought_ they were at one time, but somewhere a long the line they went astray - far far off the path and therefore are nothing of the sort anymore.
> 
> Not gonna argue it. The main point is Lies and Lying and Ignorance are a major cause these kinds of things in society. So let's not perpetuate them.




Cool. I think you're wrong. So do most Christians. Though obviously you're quite entitled to claim you're right. Not sure it was worth signing up to a forum for. Ho hum.

It's all rather besides the point, at this stage we don't know if his religion had any influence on this atrocity.


----------



## thatsanegative

chronocide said:


> Cool. I think you're wrong. So do most Christians. Though obviously you're quite entitled to claim you're right. Not sure it was worth signing up to a forum for. Ho hum.
> 
> It's all rather besides the point, at this stage we don't know if his religion had any influence on this atrocity.



Wrong about what?

Really? Most of them huh....Let them know what was said so they can come and straighten me out. 

Your last sentence is part of the very reason i signed up and responded.


----------



## daemon barbeque

thatsanegative said:


> Wrong about what?
> 
> Really? Most of them huh....Let them know what was said so they can come and straighten me out.
> 
> Your last sentence is part of the very reason i signed up and responded.



Do you respond also when "muslims" are the terrorists?


----------



## chronocide

thatsanegative said:


> Wrong about what?
> 
> Really? Most of them huh....Let them know what was said so they can come and straighten me out.
> 
> Your last sentence is part of the very reason i signed up and responded.




About doing something so atrocious meaning you are not a Christian.

Nah, I'll not bother. It should be pretty clear though. I mean, the official Catholic line is that carrying out such atrocities doesn't mean you're not Christian, whilst it obviously means you're a pretty shit one, and they account for about half of all Christians just by themselves. I feel it's a pretty safe bet that whilst not following the Christian message, most Christians would agree you can be a total bastard and still be a Christian.

Of course, if everyone did think like you, it'd be an easy get-out for religious folks instead of trying to do something to change the views of their adherents. Christians blew up an abortion clinic? Not our problem, they weren't Christians, no need to assess our stance. Orange Order members threw bricks at kids on their way to a Catholic school? Not Christian, not our problem. Muslims blew up buses in London? Not real Muslims, not our problem...

But not many folks were suggesting it did. It's in the thread title as a descriptor, to distinguish it from the sad assumption that all terrorism is Islamic, not as a cause.


----------



## skeels

Sad day for Norway. Sad day for humanity. Pointlessly we try to blame, wanting to know who is responsible. The need to change begins within ourselves.


----------



## Explorer

MF_Kitten said:


> His manifesto is 50% copy/pasted from wikipedia articles, and articles written by a different guy on document.no, where he was active and wrote stuff. Lots of other articles and things here and there were copied, and other types of writings have been used.



This is why I always feel a twinge of worry whenever any member here posts something political with huge amounts of cut-and-paste.

----

You know how people here on SS.org sometimes debate about what should be included in what musical genres?

I know the temptation is there to say that one person or another is or isn't of a particular religion. Does self-identification count? Or is it only some and not others who are allowed to decide that someone is a member of a particular religion? 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban have their particular definition, which other groups of Muslims may or may not be slow to disagree with. There are Christians who kill abortion doctors, and other Christians may or may not be slow to disagree with that. 

Let me know when all debates about musical genres have been put to rest, and I'll be ready to believe that you've also settled the debates about religious genres at the same time.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

thatsanegative said:


> Ignorance and lies only perpetuate these kind of actions. These are two of the greatest crimes against humanity on earth.
> To perpetuate them with ignorance makes you no better than the guy who did this horrific crime. So think about it.


 
Wait... perpetuating lies and ignorance makes a person no better than someone who murders 80+ children?

Please tell me I'm reading that wrong.


----------



## Explorer

thatsanegative said:


> Your last sentence is part of the very reason i signed up and responded.



Ah, I get it... political trolling!

Reported.

----

I'm not sure if the point was that one shouldn't spread lies about what religious and political extremists might be capable of, or if saying that they're capable of it judging by their past actions (yes, that's a big "wut?" on that), but I don't think any comments have been made which aren't rooted in any particular group's history and rhetoric.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

I think that 21 years is plenty of time to give someone a chance to take a very, very hard look at themselves and reflect on their beliefs. If he's still a threat after the 21 years then he is kept in prison... this is bad how?

I appreciate the severity of the crime, but just think for a moment how truly long 21 years is and how much can change in that time. With the right help, this guy could become rehabilitated so that he may once again join society. No matter how bad the crime, everybody deserves a second chance at life. Bear in mind that it can extremely to difficult to qualify some people of mental health issues.

This is exactly the reason that the death penalty is so tricky, because often the argument either way attempts to view a picture that was painted in colour in black and white. To clarify, I'm not against the death penalty per se, if this guy was to see trial in one of the US states where the death penalty is legal I wouldn't be sad to see him go, but I can't claim to know the ins and outs of the situation so my judgement is essentially useless.

European laws are usually pretty well thought out, I support giving him 21 years to sort himself out.


----------



## chronocide

Quite agree. I think people were under the impression (as I was) that 21 years was the maximum sentence and that was that, not being aware of the possibility to tack on further five year extension at the end.


----------



## Phrygian

yes, 21 years (one prison year in norway is 8 months if they behave good, so just under 16 years served) and prolonged 5 years at the time if they still see him as a threat. so theoretically it can end up being a life sentence. 

21 years used to be the top sentence, but after a horrendous rape/murder on a couple of young girls they came up with this system, calling it "forvaring", directly translated to custody. they didnt want those guys back on the streets ever. 


i want that guy in jail forever, what some here are saying about people changing in 21 years i call bullshit in this case. the guy spent 9(!) years planning this, killed almost 100 people, so i don't see how anything he says within 21 years justifies that..


----------



## eaeolian

thatsanegative said:


> Wrong about what?
> 
> Really? Most of them huh....Let them know what was said so they can come and straighten me out.
> 
> Your last sentence is part of the very reason i signed up and responded.



Mod Edit: A. Knock of the Christmas tree colors, that's frowned upon here. B.) If you signed up simply to troll, I'll be more than happy to remove you permanently. It says "strictly moderated" in the title, and we mean it.


----------



## Northern

Phrygian said:


> yes, 21 years (one prison year in norway is 8 months if they behave good, so just under 16 years served) and prolonged 5 years at the time if they still see him as a threat. so theoretically it can end up being a life sentence.
> 
> 21 years used to be the top sentence, but after a horrendous rape/murder on a couple of young girls they came up with this system, calling it "forvaring", directly translated to custody. they didnt want those guys back on the streets ever.
> 
> 
> i want that guy in jail forever, what some here are saying about people changing in 21 years i call bullshit in this case. the guy spent 9(!) years planning this, killed almost 100 people, so i don't see how anything he says within 21 years justifies that..



I hope he will be in jail till the day he dies, every night being raped by two enormous men called Lola and Tiny, just to have his life ended two days before his release by some guy with a sharpened toothbrush.


----------



## Jakke

Thank the gods! The number of deaths has been decreased! Still, 68 people have died, but it also means that 25 lives on.

Now the bastard has 68 lives, and maybe more, lives on his conscience, I hope he rots in jail...

But at least it's better news


----------



## Chickenhawk

Norway rampage culprit calm, expects life in jail - Yahoo! News

Guess he's openly saying he did it as a Christian to cleanse Norway of Muslims, and that he feels his actions are akin to a modern day Knights Templar.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

Northern said:


> I hope he will be in jail till the day he dies, every night being raped by two enormous men called Lola and Tiny, just to have his life ended two days before his release by some guy with a sharpened toothbrush.



I have a feeling that that doesn't happen as much outside the US.


----------



## AySay

I've refrained from posting here, because I don't want to divert the attention of this tragedy from the innocent victims, to the perpetrator. At least not so soon after this horrible event. However, while I've seen it A LOT elsewhere, seeing it here now too is disturbing.

I'm talking about this particular brand of statement.

_"This has nothing to do with religion and politics, he is just crazy. He isn't a TRUE Christian." _

This is completely unacceptable, ignorant, hypocritical bullshit that I am appalled people can even think without realizing it's stupidity.

This man's actions are CLEARLY motivated by politics, and religion. He is not some crazy who runs into the street and kills people at random. He methodically planned and carried out an attack on a specific group of people based on their political, and social values. He attacked the "left" specifically. He didn't go shoot up a conservative youth function. 

To say he is just an insane person, and completely disregard his motives, and beliefs is disgusting, and insensitive to the victims. Victims who died solely for not conforming to his political and religious beliefs. It's selfish to distance yourself from someone the minute he does something negative in the name of your beliefs. Whether it be conservatives or Christians, you shouldn't be instantly dismissing the attacker. You should try and understand how and why someone could take your views and twist them into believing killing innocent children is justifiable, and work to never allow this to happen again.

When there is a terror attack, and the perpetrators are Muslim, I don't see too many people running to defend Muslims, and denouncing the perpetrator as "a crazy individual who happens to be Muslim". No, the vitriol and hate directed to Islam, Arabs, and "the left" is rampant. Think about the billion other Muslims who probably feel just as indignant, and angry as you do now. 

I know most people here aren't like that, but I still feel like I need to put this in writing...


----------



## SD83

Jakke said:


> Thank the gods! The number of deaths has been decreased! Still, 68 people have died, but it also means that 25 lives on.
> 
> Now the bastard has 68 lives, and maybe more, lives on his conscience, I hope he rots in jail...
> 
> But at least it's better news



That was indeed good news. However, I can't recall anything as fucked up happening in the so called First World maybe since WW II. Sure, there was genocide in Ruanda & the Balkans, but while that showed what men were capable of, to me it still felt kinda far away (and I was kinda young when it happened). There were the 9/11 attacks and several other terrorist attacks, but to me, this is a whole different level. This guy saw (almost) all of his victims. And he decided to survive because he believed in what he did. Which imo requires an even higher level of insanity than suicide bombing/amok. Honestly, I have no idea what should happen to people like this. I took a brief (very brief, lack of time...) look at his manifesto... there is just so much wrong in his head... and still I don't think that punishment should have anything to do with revenge but should change the person so he can be a member of the society again (another part of me says "if you take away other people's human rights, your human rights should not be respected any longer"). Honestly, I did not post yesterday because all this was just to crazy and I'm still totally... wtf? I can't even get close to trying to imagine what this would mean if it happened where I live while I was in that age, and I don't know if I even want to. I still don't really know what to say.
Intolerance kills. And it is a vicious circle. Sure, tolerance has to have its boundaries, but no human being should ever want to harm any other for what he believes, says, looks like etc. (I can't even live up to that. I alwas want to beat up people for acting extraordinarily stupid...)
What will most likely happen is that governments all over the world will now try to watch their citizens even closer. And if I was afraid of some marxism bullshit, that would be the exact opposite of what I would have hoped for.


----------



## MF_Kitten

Death toll down to 68, but it looks like a much bigger difference than it is. It's only like 16-17 less. I say "only" because in relation to the whole death toll it's very small. It's over twice as many as were killed during the Virginia Tech massacre still.

Plus the 8 that were killed during the bomb.


----------



## Jakke

It's up to 76...

If you count percentage, this attack is "worse" than 9-11, on the basis that this attack touches a larger part of the population. This is not trying to "value" two horrible events, it's merely a way to put this into perspective.

The reason the death toll has been lowered is that there were fewer kids at the camp than expected.

The manefestation (sic) in Oslo was very touching, 150 000 norwegians standing together, supporting each other.


----------



## chronocide

Jakke said:


> It's up to 76...
> 
> If you count percentage, this attack is "worse" than 9-11, on the basis that this attack touches a larger part of the population. This is not trying to "value" two horrible events, it's merely a way to put this into perspective.



What? Percentage?


----------



## highlordmugfug

Jakke said:


> It's up to 76...
> 
> If you count percentage, this attack is "worse" than 9-11, on the basis that this attack touches a larger part of the population. This is not trying to "value" two horrible events, it's merely a way to put this into perspective.
> 
> The reason the death toll has been lowered is that there were fewer kids at the camp than expected.
> 
> The manefestation (sic) in Oslo was very touching, 150 000 norwegians standing together, supporting each other.





chronocide said:


> What? Percentage?


Killed/Pop of Norway: 76 /4,827,03_8=_*.0000157446451
*Killed/Pop of US: 2,977 / 307,006,550* =* *.00000969686152*

I guess that's what he means, but I don't really see what it has to do with anything or how it's relevant.


----------



## chronocide

Ah, I see. No, it's not at all relevant. And more than a little callous, I fear.


----------



## Jakke

I was trying to point out the magnetude, almost everyone know someone who was involved. That is because, in relative population, there are 50 americans for every norwegian, at least.

Just putting into perspective, especially for them who consider Amy Winehouse's death the most important thing that've happened lately. Not bashing her, marvelous singer, at least a couple of years ago. But, some perspective is needed, so I translated to american konditions.


----------



## chronocide

You can't measure the magnitude in numbers. Though I don't want to get into that comparative conversation, I find it a little obscene, it reads a bit like you didn't think American's could comprehend the horror of the act because it was a mere 76 people - though I accept that wasn't your intention.

I don't think anyone actually considers Amy Winehouse's death to be more _important_ on a global scale, though to some, it frankly IS more important to them personally, that doesn't automatically make them bad or stupid. Not to get into THAT conversation either, I had enough of it with people having tantrums on facebook about coverage of her death.


----------



## highlordmugfug

Jakke said:


> I was trying to point out the magnetude, almost everyone know someone who was involved. That is because, in relative population, there are 50 americans for every norwegian, at least.
> 
> Just putting into perspective, especially for them who consider Amy Winehouse's death the most important thing that've happened lately. Not bashing her, marvelous singer, at least a couple of years ago. But, some perspective is needed, so I translated to american konditions.


It's not a catastrophe-off.

Anyone who doesn't get how a car exploding in the middle of a city, and a bunch of kids being shot while at a summer retreat is absolutely fucking terrible has much greater issues than mathematical comparisons can solve.

And Amy Winehouse has nothing to do with it: American media coverage of it sucks yes, but we kept this from being an islamophobia thread, let's also keep it from becoming an 'americans are stupid thread' and focus on what's actually important.


----------



## thatsanegative

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Wait... perpetuating lies and ignorance makes a person no better than someone who murders 80+ children?
> 
> Please tell me I'm reading that wrong.




You read it right.
What i mean is that to perpetuate lies and ignorance eventually it can end up with someone doing such a thing. In effect then you become part of the problem no? You can see the effects of this every day.
I do personally believe that lies are = to murder in an esoteric sense. 
In other words someone who either knowingly lies or states lies due to ignorance ( and never thinks about or contemplates what the consequences of that are and never maybe one day says, this is wrong, i'm not going to do that anymore ) .. just knowingly and out of fear or hate or bias.. then it makes them about as worthless as this pos guy that did this crime. To me.

In my opinion the title of the thread could be considered "trolling" as someone called it.

It just makes logical sense to me for example if someone calls themselves a Peacekeeper, and then goes out and starts a War. Should they then still be called a Peacekeeper?

I'm not a Christian by the way. It's just how i see it. I would say that if even the Pope still called the guy a Christian that the Pope is wrong.


Anyway, if the main point of this thread is really about the tragedy of course i don't want to take away from or derail that...any more than i have ( and others have by also injecting anything beyond condolences )
Peace


----------



## Jakke

Of course I do *not* think americans are to stupid to comprehend this tragedy, I do believe I stand above such prejudice... It does not however change that I have gotten reactions like: 76 norwegians? 76 people are nothing..

That kind of things, even from swedes, and we are the brother-people (swedes-norwegians)

All spill of life is despicable, yes I am against the death-penalty, and comparisons cheapens the deal. But due to the sheer ignorance of some of the world (believe me America, you do not have monopoly on stupid), blunt facts are sometimes the only way, even if it goes against everything I stand for.

/Rant


----------



## daemon barbeque

thatsanegative said:


> You read it right.
> What i mean is that to perpetuate lies and ignorance eventually it can end up with someone doing such a thing. In effect then you become part of the problem no? You can see the effects of this every day.
> I do personally believe that lies are = to murder in an esoteric sense.
> In other words someone who either knowingly lies or states lies due to ignorance ( and never thinks about or contemplates what the consequences of that are and never maybe one day says, this is wrong, i'm not going to do that anymore ) .. just knowingly and out of fear or hate or bias.. then it makes them about as worthless as this pos guy that did this crime. To me.
> 
> In my opinion the title of the thread could be considered "trolling" as someone called it.
> 
> It just makes logical sense to me for example if someone calls themselves a Peacekeeper, and then goes out and starts a War. Should they then still be called a Peacekeeper?
> 
> I'm not a Christian by the way. It's just how i see it. I would say that if even the Pope still called the guy a Christian that the Pope is wrong.
> 
> 
> Anyway, if the main point of this thread is really about the tragedy of course i don't want to take away from or derail that...any more than i have ( and others have by also injecting anything beyond condolences )
> Peace



A religion is the culture based around a belief. The books do not create the religion. People do. People "are" the religion. This guy, the pedofile Priests, the inquisition, the free masons, the crusaders, the pope, the patric and all other people are part of it. The "sum" of all is the religion. You or someone else do not have the authority or the knowledge to determine who is what or not. You are not in people's mind or heart, neither you have any knowledge if it's genuine or not. I accept the Killer's Manifest, and take his words as honest.
I am Neither Ignorant, nor Lying! I suggest you to put and use your words wisely! You come to a Forum to "protect" Christianity without being Christian, tell me that I am either a liar or ignorant, and my crime is as bad as Murder.
I think you should do not talk further about me or the thread title anymore.
If you have anything else to contribute I am all ears, if not, I ask you to stop!


----------



## Explorer

The point is, all those historians who claim that the Crusades and the Inquisition had Christianity as the motivation are completely wrong. Only I am qualified to determine all religious genres.

Wut?


----------



## The Somberlain

Daemon Barbeque, the many acts you cited are not of a religion, but of a political/economic group associated with said religion. Simony, the Crusades, Papal influence in Italian politics, etc. were political/economic actions of political/economic means for political/economic reasons. These actions by a group of humans associated with a religion do not constitute the religion itself.

A religion is a belief system which covers cosmology and doctrine. For example, mainstream Christianity is derived from the holy text itself, the Bible, and accepted interpretations and expansions on the Bible by the likes of Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. 

For example, Thomas Malthus advocated having fewer children to control the population, but he himself had eight. Does his personal life change his doctrine? No!

Back to the Norwegian terrorist/mass murderer, he CLAIMED to follow the doctrines of Christianity by identifying himself as a Christian, but he, in thinking his act as moral, broke three cardinal rules of Christianity.

1. Thou Shalt Not Kill (Ten Commandments, Exodus)
2. Blessed are the Peacemakers (Beatitudes, Gospels)
3. Treat others how you would like to be treated (Golden Rule, Gospels)

I never thought I would be quoting scripture here or defending Christianity, but my argument stands. An "associate's" foul actions while claiming to be part of a group while being opposed to said groups doctrines does not change those doctrines to support his actions. What we have here is a case of severe mental disturbance, misinterpretation, and bad influences from actually bad groups (e.g. Neo-Nazis)


----------



## highlordmugfug

Glenn Beck likens Norwegian dead to Hitler youth | Media | The Guardian


Disgusting.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

highlordmugfug said:


> Glenn Beck likens Norwegian dead to Hitler youth | Media | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Disgusting.


----------



## Jakke

highlordmugfug said:


> Glenn Beck likens Norwegian dead to Hitler youth | Media | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Disgusting.


----------



## petereanima

Wow, I now know why Stephen King called Glenn Beck "Satans retarded little brother"...


----------



## Fred the Shred

I knew the guy was an imbecile, but this is really kicking it up a notch.


----------



## Zorkuus

Why is Beck so obsessed with the nazis all the time? A little projection bias perhaps?


----------



## chronocide

I actually saw the Jamie MacDonald update on Facebook "He's the biggest cunt this planet has seen since the Woolly Mammoth went extinct." prior to knowing what Beck had said. But Jesus Christ.


----------



## Waelstrum

Is that real, or did the guardian get hacked? Please tell me the guardian got hacked, because if people take him seriously enough to let him on the TV and radio, then the media culture in America is far worse than I had imagined.


----------



## Jakke

Didja guys hear that Breivik asked the judge if he could be allowed to wear his home-made uniform to court... The man is obviously deluded

As if it wasn't ample evidence of that already...


----------



## chronocide

Metal's most famous clown is in getting his tuppence worth in, now.

Varg Vikernes - War in Europe: Part I - Cui bono?

Guess what, it was the Jews.


----------



## XEN

highlordmugfug said:


> Glenn Beck likens Norwegian dead to Hitler youth | Media | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Disgusting.



Yeah man, I saw that on the CNN app when I was eating breakfast this morning....

Why do people think that useless bone sack is relevant???


----------



## Waelstrum

chronocide said:


> Metal's most famous clown is in getting his tuppence worth in, now.
> 
> Varg Vikernes - War in Europe: Part I - Cui bono?
> 
> Guess what, it was the Jews.



I read this, and now wish I hadn't. Please don't post stuff like this, as fools such as myself might read it. This dick clearly wants as much attention as possible and even asks people to pass his troll article around, and by doing so you're letting him win.


Also, it seems that the Glen Beck thing was real, and I feel sad that someone like this is given radio and television time. He needs to be fired. He should not be allowed to get payed for saying stuff like that.


----------



## chronocide

See I think these things should be spread as far and wide as possible. I don't really agree with the idea of a no platform policy, the more people that are encourage to take note of, laugh at and be disgusted by the absurdity of idiots the better.


----------



## Waelstrum

Ordinarily I'd agree, but I think the thing to do with people who do stuff just for attention is to ignore them and they'll stop their trolling.


----------



## Fred the Shred

Yes. When one imbecile isn't enough, enter Vlad Vikernes and his twisted and misinformed views. I totally agree that a people subdued by the Roman empire invented Christianism to spread their amazing power to Europe. Oh, wait.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Tempted to make an Orb joke until I noticed the word "Christian."


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

It isn't just Beck that's being an asshat.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

It's what we expect from Fox News, anyone that is stupid enough to believe it deserves to be led astray. If you class Fox News as legitimate news, the joke is on you.


----------



## Black_Sheep

I was so damn pissed off when i saw the news about the bomb in Oslo, and the shooting at the island. 

I can't believe that something like this would happen in a great country like Norway. And the guy responsible is getting away way too easily. 21 years in jail that is. But im sure there are people who will make his life a living hell in many ways. 


EDIT: and Glenn Beck shouldn't comment on anything. He's nothing but a retarded douchebag, i would be surprised if he could point out where Norway is on the map.


----------



## BucketheadRules

highlordmugfug said:


> Glenn Beck likens Norwegian dead to Hitler youth | Media | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Disgusting.



What a stupid cunt.



chronocide said:


> Metal's most famous clown is in getting his tuppence worth in, now.
> 
> Varg Vikernes - War in Europe: Part I - Cui bono?
> 
> Guess what, it was the Jews.



What a stupid cunt.


----------



## Explorer

The Somberlain said:


> Daemon Barbeque, the many acts you cited are not of a religion, but of a political/economic group associated with said religion.
> 
> A religion is a belief system which covers cosmology and doctrine. For example, mainstream Christianity is derived from the holy text itself, the Bible, and accepted interpretations and expansions on the Bible by the likes of Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine.
> 
> Back to the Norwegian terrorist/mass murderer, he CLAIMED to follow the doctrines of Christianity by identifying himself as a Christian, but he, in thinking his act as moral, broke three cardinal rules of Christianity.
> 
> 1. Thou Shalt Not Kill (Ten Commandments, Exodus)
> 2. Blessed are the Peacemakers (Beatitudes, Gospels)
> 3. Treat others how you would like to be treated (Golden Rule, Gospels)
> 
> I never thought I would be quoting scripture here or defending Christianity, but my argument stands. An "associate's" foul actions while claiming to be part of a group while being opposed to said groups doctrines does not change those doctrines to support his actions. What we have here is a case of severe mental disturbance, misinterpretation, and bad influences from actually bad groups (e.g. Neo-Nazis)



I respect you greatly, but I have to disagree.

You say that as soon as someone violates one particular precept, they are no longer entitled to self-identify with a particular group. That's your definition.

By your argument, anyone who is not an Orthodox Jew cannot claim to be a religious Jew. Someone who wears, for example, cotton polyester blends in their clothing? Not a genuine practicing Jew. They've abandoned parts of the Law. 

Similarly, either the Catholics or the Protestants aren't really Christians, as the Protestants eliminated part of the Bible to eliminate Marionism and the intercession of the saints, either rightly or wrongly part of the original Scriptures. 

----

Is Glenn Beck feebleminded?

'In a monologue on the syndicated radio show The Glenn Beck Program, the former Fox News presenter, conservative commentator and Tea Party darling Glenn Beck said: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler Youth or whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing." 

'Tea Party supporters in the United States have hosted their own political youth camps, the Telegraph reported.'

Ouch! Reality bites back! Projecting much?


----------



## Fred the Shred

Explorer, what you say is, I'm sorry to say, incorrect. By not being an Orthodox Jew, you are not renouncing The Law, you are renouncing a sect's interpretation of the law. By your logic, if John's a Roman Catholic, then he isn't a true Christian, as the Orthodox church denounces certain precepts of the Roman Catholic church, and we can expand this to any other sect within a religion.

Religions are made of beliefs, and divergences in such beliefs, apart from core truths (no Christian would disagree on believing Jesus is the messiah and so forth), originate sects. Large or small, a sect is no more than a group, within a religion, with a set of views that distinguish them from other groups.

Also, oddly enough, one can't ever claim that protestants denied the scriptures, as the "saints" are but a formalization of the "justs" described often. What they did do was to stay clear of the cult of said saints, which is typically catholic, as they considered it to be unlawfully idolizing people when that is forbidden in The Law - again, different interpretation of a core principle.

Organized religions have ALWAYS been a problem, not because of the religious belief behind them but because claiming to know a God and his will generates power over those who will believe you are the one to guide them. Create a chain of command, all of which "knowing God's will" and you have an organization, with massive political and economical power. It sure wasn't God filling the Roman Church's pockets, I tell you! 

Religion is power. All power attracts those that want to wield it. There goes the purity of religion.


----------



## Explorer

I understand the need to impose one's definitions on others. 

It's ironic to talk about a supposed Divine Law (clothing of mixed fibers, for example), direct from Revealed Text, as an interpretation. Insisting that your particular interpretation of what is actually Revealed Text is valid gets right back to anyone insisting that their interpretation of who belongs to a particular religion is correct as well. 

It's comforting to say that one has the definitive answer as to who belongs to a faith as opposed to other members of the same faith, or what is truly God's Law as opposed to a particular group's interpretation. It sounds like apologetics and semantics to me, though. I don't buy it.


----------



## chronocide

Fred the Shred said:


> Explorer, what you say is, I'm sorry to say, incorrect. By not being an Orthodox Jew, you are not renouncing The Law, you are renouncing a sect's interpretation of the law. By your logic, if John's a Roman Catholic, then he isn't a true Christian, as the Orthodox church denounces certain precepts of the Roman Catholic church, and we can expand this to any other sect within a religion.
> 
> Religions are made of beliefs, and divergences in such beliefs, apart from core truths (no Christian would disagree on believing Jesus is the messiah and so forth), originate sects. Large or small, a sect is no more than a group, within a religion, with a set of views that distinguish them from other groups.
> 
> Also, oddly enough, one can't ever claim that protestants denied the scriptures, as the "saints" are but a formalization of the "justs" described often. What they did do was to stay clear of the cult of said saints, which is typically catholic, as they considered it to be unlawfully idolizing people when that is forbidden in The Law - again, different interpretation of a core principle.




And I think this was Explorer's point, no? It was also mine, earlier.

That you can't make arbitrary statements as to who is or is not a member of a faith because of their rejection of a couple of laws which other sects adhere to. Even significant ones. Which is what Thatsanegative was doing.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Scar Symmetry said:


> It's what we expect from Fox News, anyone that is stupid enough to believe it deserves to be led astray. If you class Fox News as legitimate news, the joke is on you.


 
I *personally* know ppl who live by it...


----------



## Fred the Shred

Explorer said:


> I understand the need to impose one's definitions on others.
> 
> It's ironic to talk about a supposed Divine Law (clothing of mixed fibers, for example), direct from Revealed Text, as an interpretation. Insisting that your particular interpretation of what is actually Revealed Text is valid gets right back to anyone insisting that their interpretation of who belongs to a particular religion is correct as well.
> 
> It's comforting to say that one has the definitive answer as to who belongs to a faith as opposed to other members of the same faith, or what is truly God's Law as opposed to a particular group's interpretation. It sounds like apologetics and semantics to me, though. I don't buy it.



"Revealed Text" has been demonstrated to contain civil laws in there, and we all know (like I believe it was you who mentioned it) that even the Bible as we know it is the product of people who "know God's will" editing out what was clearly not according to it. Kind of a tragically comical thing, come to think of it!

I don't find it remotely comforting to have a definitive answer to anything related to spiritual discovery or faith - I believe it is extremely arrogant to do so, in fact, so I just respect people's views as long as the principles of harmony are respected. My point is not to have a go at what you're saying with the "STFU infidel" approach or shit like that, it's just to demonstrate that, like any opinion, mine included, on things that are based on perception and beliefs, one can argue it.

If all this emerges from pondering whether the nutcase is a Christian, yes he is. Is he abiding the most elementary precepts of Christianism? Nope, he isn't. He has the belief that shooting kids in the name of Christ is fine, though, so demented as he may be, he is a fucked up christian of sorts. Unfortunately for the kids, he could even be a fucked up Pastafarian - as far as the end result goes, one can invoke whatever reason he wants, it's still a gross and disgusting act unless you're equally demented.


----------



## Nimgoble

chronocide said:


> And I think this was Explorer's point, no? It was also mine, earlier.
> 
> That you can't make arbitrary statements as to who is or is not a member of a faith because of their rejection of a couple of laws which other sects adhere to. Even significant ones. Which is what Thatsanegative was doing.



No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just in case anyone wanted to know the name of the particular fallacy chronocide is describing.


----------



## The Somberlain

Explorer, though I respect you too, I think you partially missed the point.

The wearing of polyester is a cultural precept by a certain sect, whereas "Thou shalt not kill" is a core precept of ALL Abrihamic religion, so anyone from Christian Fundamentalists to Muslim Fundamentalists who kill in the name of their god go against the core precepts allegedly uttered by their god. Anyways, no legitimate system of ethics advocates killing. Coincidence? Nope.


----------



## chronocide

The Somberlain said:


> Explorer, though I respect you too, I think you partially missed the point.
> 
> The wearing of polyester is a cultural precept by a certain sect, whereas "Thou shalt not kill" is a core precept of ALL Abrihamic religion, so anyone from Christian Fundamentalists to Muslim Fundamentalists who kill in the name of their god go against the core precepts allegedly uttered by their god.



Both faiths historically (and in the modern day) allow pretty substantial "Except in the case of..." clauses in their rules, however.


----------



## Fred the Shred

...which were conveniently added in spite of the explicit commandments of the religion's most fundamental laws. Power and blindness make contradictions all the more acceptable, of course.


----------



## chronocide

Fred the Shred said:


> ...which were conveniently added in spite of the explicit commandments of the religion's most fundamental laws. Power and blindness make contradictions all the more acceptable, of course.



Well that just isn't true. Execution, violence and warfare are still be endorsed by their scriptures after Moses wandered down the hill, and by their principal protagonists, at that, who supersede everything that goes before.


----------



## Fred the Shred

chronocide said:


> Well that just isn't true. Or execution and warfare wouldn't still be endorsed by their scriptures after Moses wandered down the hill.



You see, it is quite simple to insert "God told me to" to justify acts. That was a political act in my view, as divisions were a risk. If you see the Ten Commandments themselves, there is no single "unless" in them. There is a reason for that.

The concept of the vengeful god is in itself in deep discordance with the rest of the Bible, and I have my own views on this matter. I don't believe in human will being conditioned by an oppressing force that created us to serve it, only to send a peace loving emissary as its earthly manifestation do die for a cause, causing no harm or amassing the people to revolt - it would be silly, wouldn't it?

This would bring us a bit too off topic, I believe - let's just say there are many "convenient" additions to all religions' sacred texts here and there, based on the balance of power and political strengthening - it is the one constant in mankind: power is worth everything for those who crave it.


----------



## The Somberlain

Well, my response to that is to look up Aldous Huxley's views on religion and pseudoreligion in the Perennial Philosophy


----------



## Explorer

Let's just agree that Beck's logic is false and move on, shall we?



I love you guys!


----------



## chronocide

Fred the Shred said:


> You see, it is quite simple to insert "God told me to" to justify acts.



Of course.



> If you see the Ten Commandments themselves, there is no single "unless" in them. There is a reason for that.



You're right there isn't - as they appear now, and you seem to want to hark to the _original_ message, so let's do that... Initially in the bible there are no Ten Commandments, there are ten categories of laws, there are 613 commandments, all of which are _equally_ sacred. The vast majority of which are ignored by Christians, the majority of which are ignored by Muslims are all of which are observed only by some Jews. Most Abrahamic theists ignore the majority of their most sacred rules.



> The concept of the vengeful god is in itself in deep discordance with the rest of the Bible, and I have my own views on this matter.



What is "the rest" of the bible? Because the old testament is pretty full-on with a vengeful God, and the new testament is what, a third its size? Yeshua's teachings overrule for the most part what comes before (as do Muhammed's) but neither change nor question the nature of God himself.



> I don't believe in human will being conditioned by an oppressing force that created us to serve it, only to send a peace loving emissary as its earthly manifestation do die for a cause, causing no harm or amassing the people to revolt - it would be silly, wouldn't it?



Not sure what you're trying to say here.



> This would bring us a bit too off topic, I believe - let's just say there are many "convenient" additions to all religions' sacred texts here and there, based on the balance of power and political strengthening - it is the one constant in mankind: power is worth everything for those who crave it.



There certainly is. But I'm looking at what the very, very first scriptures said, and what the very first believers believed.




EDIT: So to return to the point. Christians can kill people and still be Christians. Most would consider them shit ones, of course, but many would say they were still Christians. That's that. It seems a very silly point to labour.


----------



## Sephiroth952

Konfyouzd said:


> I *personally* know ppl who live by it...


I do too Kj, and it makes me feel sick inside.


----------



## Zorkuus

The Somberlain said:


> "Thou shalt not kill" is a core precept of ALL Abrihamic religion.


It's not that simple. If you read the OT, NT or the quran you find exceptions to the rule every now and then. "Thou shalt not kill" usually refers to members of your own "tribe", but neighboring heretics are free game. You may kill people from other religions/tribes as long as you don't go about it in a very brutal way is also a rule that is thrown around alot in those books. But ofc their idea of non-brutal is still very brutal by todays standards. The historical core of abrahamic religions is borderline death cultist, animal AND human sacrifice. Nothing like the modern "moderate" image of them is. If you want to talk about a religion of "thou shalt not kill" that applies to all humanity, then let's talk about Jainism or maybe certain demonitions of Buddhism.


----------



## Demiurge

Maybe we could clear the air and say that, while labeled such, the perpetrator here was not operating with respect to generally-held Christian precepts OR those of so-called "right-wing" politics, even though his feeble manifesto claims appeals to non-mainstream strands of each.


----------



## The Somberlain

Demiurge said:


> Maybe we could clear the air and say that, while labeled such, the perpetrator here was not operating with respect to generally-held Christian precepts OR those of so-called "right-wing" politics, even though his feeble manifesto claims appeals to non-mainstream strands of each.



You just ended the argument so simply, and I was going in a roundabout way to defend the realm of ideas

+rep


----------



## BigPhi84

Konfyouzd said:


> Tempted to make an Orb joke until I noticed the word "Christian."




http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2584788-post160.html






Great minds think alike...


----------



## daemon barbeque

The Abraham's god is a forgiving one. It tells you what you shouldn't do, but as long as you accept his excistence, sooner or later you get to touch the virgins!
None of the religions are sacred, since all of them where created by men, and posess the very human flaws. All those holy books where written by men.
So putting the "pople" out of the equation will not work. It is like claiming Stalin wasn't a real Marxist communist, so his actions can't called be communism.
Again, people form their religion. Who cares what JESUS praised when he lived, when all his followers do something opposite today. They are the christianity, and they live it as it fits to their views. Jesus has no impact on his followers.
Who cares what buddha said, pople still see him on god level and made his personal views to sacred religion. 
W. killed many muslims in the name of christisnity or democracy. Can you claim he isn't a christian?


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

HEY LOOK SOMETHING ABOUT THE INCIDENT INSTEAD OF RELIGIOUS BICKERING!

I read an article on Reuters about the Norwegian populace's reaction to the police's handling of the event. Seems many people in the international community think the police reaction time was so delayed as to be unacceptable, but the population as a whole has generally traditionally been accepting and appreciative of their police force (unlike many other western countries), so for now not too many people there have anything negative to say about them.

Any thoughts from the norwegians on the board here? What about the non-Norwegians?

I'm pretty sure I heard the media complaining about Emergency Response times being too slow for almost every tragic event that has taken place in the US since I've been old enough to pay attention to that sort of thing, so I thought it was interesting to see the opposite reaction so far in Norway.

Here's the article:

Analysis: Culture shields sluggish Norway police from critics | Reuters

And here's one about a pending security review:

Norway agrees to security review after killings | Reuters


----------



## Jakke

^Well, the best drivers are always in the back seat.


----------



## Demiurge

Jakke said:


> ^Well, the best drivers are always in the back seat.



Right. One of the dumbest ways of coping with a tragedy is engaging in magical thinking, believing that certain authorities are all-knowing and could have stopped it. When psychopaths do terrible things, we still want to pretend that we have some agency in the matter, but we don't. Yet, we try to regain power in the matter by blaming the police, the government, etc. for not _somehow-magically-knowing-about_ what was going to happen and stopping it!


----------



## vampiregenocide

As well prepared as police forces are, I don't think anyone can completely prepare for a mad gunman to go on an armed rampage on a small island. Not only do you have to sort out getting guns, but you have to actually get to the island which means sorting out a boat that can carry a good number of people over there. The fact that police forces were already engaged in dealing with the bombing meant that it really tested them.

That being said, I have heard some things which could highlight issues regarding their organisation. First off, apparently a lot of kids on the island called the police and were ignored, being told they didn't believe them. When the police did get on scene, they didn't have the means of dealing with the threat and ended up just waiting for the SWAT team to turn up, who also had trouble finding a means of transportation over to the island.


----------



## Jakke

Not to mention that norwegian police don't usually carry weapons, so they had to collect them too.


----------



## Murmel

Jakke said:


> Not to mention that norwegian police don't usually carry weapons, so they had to collect them too.



I don't know how it is with our police force, and I'm not one of the people who wants everyone to have guns, but I really think that every police officer should carry a firearm. Because you never know when shit's about to go down. Fuck, if they can, have a shotgun somewhere in the car too, for the times when a pistol just isn't enough.

Also, if several kids are calling the police (probably frightened for their lives, some were most definitely crying and panicking on the phone) about an incident like this, you can't really not take it seriously. I wonder how the people who answered those first calls feel right now.


----------



## chronocide

A cursory look at the amounts of gun related crime in nations where the police are armed compared with where they aren't suggests only having specialist police with weapons is a good idea.

if there's truth in initial reports of the situation being ignored though... Christ.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

chronocide said:


> A cursory look at the amounts of gun related crime in nations where the police are armed compared with where they aren't suggests only having specialist police with weapons is a good idea.


 
But are countries with police who carry guns more violent because they carry guns, or do they carry guns because they're more violent? Are you implying that having an armed police force leads to more violence, or am I reading too much in to that? It'd be interesting to read some articles about that, if that's actually a popular idea.


----------



## Murmel

chronocide said:


> A cursory look at the amounts of gun related crime in nations where the police are armed compared with where they aren't suggests only having specialist police with weapons is a good idea.
> 
> if there's truth in initial reports of the situation being ignored though... Christ.



I would love to see some of those statistics, link them if you know any links  And I'm not talking stuff like automatic weapons, just a simple pistol.
I _think_ that the Swedish police carry a pistol at all times. I am not 100% on this though.


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## vampiregenocide

Every squad car should have a pistol that is locked away until needed, that way a police officer is less likely to pull it out quickly and make a rash decision.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

vampiregenocide said:


> Every squad car should have a pistol that is locked away until needed, that way a police officer is less likely to pull it out quickly and make a rash decision.


 
What about beat cops on foot? Or is that not a thing in the UK?


----------



## XEN

I like the way the old French CRS did things when I lived there: groups of 2 or 3, semi-automatics and handguns at the ready, "f*** with me if you dare" look on their faces.


----------



## vampiregenocide

Grand Moff Tim said:


> What about beat cops on foot? Or is that not a thing in the UK?


 

We do have them of course, but I think guns should be limited to squad cars. We don't have a huge gun problem in the UK, so we don't _need_ firearms, however they would be good for squad cars to have them incase. A squad car is more likely to be closer to a potential threat than an actual trained arms unit, so they can get backup quicker. 

However, the police force and justice system in the UK needs a huge overhaul before we would ever think of adding guns into the equation. And unfortunately, with public service cuts being the way they are, that is a long way off. We need to teach people to respect the law anyway, not force them to fear it with weapons.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

vampiregenocide said:


> We need to teach people to respect the law.


----------



## vampiregenocide

I don't even.


----------



## Infinite Recursion

I can't believe this shit: Apparently KFC killing chickens is worse then the slaughter of 90 fucking youth.


----------



## highlordmugfug

Infinite Recursion said:


> I can't believe this shit: Apparently KFC killing chickens is worse then the slaughter of 90 fucking youth.


They're both terrible, but there's no parallel.

Also: who the hell is Morrissey?


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

highlordmugfug said:


> They're both terrible, but there's no parallel.
> 
> Also: who the hell is Morrissey?



That's a good question? 
Who the fuck is Morrissey? 

When I read that article I was waiting for an explanation of who he is, but for some reason they decided not to do it this time.


----------



## Demiurge

Morrissey:
1. Realize irrelevancy as it is no longer the 80's.
2. Make glib, stupid proclamations to get attention.
3. ?????
4. Profit*

*Not really


----------



## Varcolac

dragonblade629 said:


> That's a good question?
> Who the fuck is Morrissey?
> 
> When I read that article I was waiting for an explanation of who he is, but for some reason they decided not to do it this time.



Morrissey was the singer for the Smiths, an 80s British alt-rock band. They were pretty good. Morrissey on the other hand is a borderline racist twat who opens his mouth without remembering to engage his brain.


----------



## Murmel

vampiregenocide said:


> Every squad car should have a pistol that is locked away until needed, that way a police officer is less likely to pull it out quickly and make a rash decision.



This is a good suggestion.
I just think it's sad that some cops are so fucking retarded that they draw their gun for the smallest things. Every cop carrying a handgun would be awesome if it could work.


----------



## MF_Kitten

Morrisey is right, if we assume his values are correct. Sadly, for him, they aren't. His vegetarian/vegan idealism says that all creatures are equally valuable, ignoring the fact that value is non-existant and created by us, and is therefore relative and contextual. So while he thinks the chickens are worth the same as any human, he's really just a dumb cunt who needs to spend some time alone in the african plains, where animals fucking slay eachother ruthlessly, and hunt down young animals because they are easy targets.

Morrisey is just being a dumb cunt who has no idea what weight goes behind the events he speaks of.

As for the religious debate, there is no point in trying to argue that he isn't a christian. How does one define that? Who gets to define that? If everyone could object to anyone's religion, then there would be no religious people, as everyone could be argued as not possibly belonging to their religion for X reasons.


----------



## Demiurge

MF_Kitten said:


> As for the religious debate, there is no point in trying to argue that he isn't a christian. How does one define that? Who gets to define that? If everyone could object to anyone's religion, then there would be no religious people, as everyone could be argued as not possibly belonging to their religion for X reasons.



I see what you mean, but one the other hand, there would technically also be no religious people if religions had absolutely no definition, either.

Certainly, to claim to be a member of a religion, one must claim to have made some sort of metaphysical beliefs/commitments. If a person's actions imply that they don't truly believe these things deep-down, then it's fair to point-out that the person either is a bad Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarian/etc. or that indeed their actions sit outside of what the Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarian/etc. community believes to be in-line with their beliefs.

Of course, I'm a cynic who believes that people are always going to put their self-interest first. That could mean "breaking character" with their beliefs to suit convenience, using the religious identify to appear to belong to communities they otherwise would not, or even twisting-around their beliefs to make it center around them (i.e. God chose _me_ to do this).


----------



## Scar Symmetry

MF_Kitten said:


> Morrisey is right, if we assume his values are correct. Sadly, for him, they aren't. His vegetarian/vegan idealism says that all creatures are equally valuable, ignoring the fact that value is non-existant and created by us, and is therefore relative and contextual. So while he thinks the chickens are worth the same as any human, he's really just a dumb cunt who needs to spend some time alone in the african plains, where animals fucking slay eachother ruthlessly, and hunt down young animals because they are easy targets.



Not sure I agree with this. Are you saying that the reason that humans aren't the same as animals is because they are the same?

Value is created by us true, but we are also categorically not in the same league as animals. We are so advanced, so self-aware, so morally obtuse that we cannot be lumped in with animals.

Biologically we are 100% animal and should try to treat ourselves that way in regards to food and excersize, but when it comes to ethics in the way we should treat other species it gets very complicated. 

It's quite tricky to say with a straight face that the reason that a chicken isn't the same value as a human is because value is a human ethic system.


----------



## chronocide

MF_Kitten said:


> he's really just a dumb cunt who needs to spend some time alone in the african plains, where animals fucking slay eachother ruthlessly, and hunt down young animals because they are easy targets.



What would that demonstrate? That carnivores eat meat and that animals with limited dietary options take what's easiest.

We aren't carnivores and we have, for the most part, the ability to choose what we eat so it's really a silly example that people make.



Murmel said:


> I would love to see some of those statistics, link them if you know any links  And I'm not talking stuff like automatic weapons, just a simple pistol.
> I _think_ that the Swedish police carry a pistol at all times. I am not 100% on this though.



I'm trying to dig up some stuff I can link or copy and paste, I have lots of figures in books here but I'm not typing tons out


----------



## MF_Kitten

Demiurge said:


> I see what you mean, but one the other hand, there would technically also be no religious people if religions had absolutely no definition, either.
> 
> Certainly, to claim to be a member of a religion, one must claim to have made some sort of metaphysical beliefs/commitments. If a person's actions imply that they don't truly believe these things deep-down, then it's fair to point-out that the person either is a bad Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarian/etc. or that indeed their actions sit outside of what the Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarian/etc. community believes to be in-line with their beliefs.
> 
> Of course, I'm a cynic who believes that people are always going to put their self-interest first. That could mean "breaking character" with their beliefs to suit convenience, using the religious identify to appear to belong to communities they otherwise would not, or even twisting-around their beliefs to make it center around them (i.e. God chose _me_ to do this).



I know what you mean, but if you ask a catholic about mormons, they will say they aren't true christians. If you ask a mormon about a jehova's witness, a jehova's witness about mormons... Well, you get the point. Who gets to say that THIS is the proper definition of what a christian is? Catholics? Protestants? Evangelics? If you have to strip away the differences and only use the similarities, then it would be "believing in a god, and his son jesus christ", mainly. If Breivik truly believes in Jesus Christ, and God almighty, then who are we to say that is not the case? 

It's a perfect example of e No True Scotsman fallacy. Breivik is, from what i've read in his shitty manifesto, a fundamentalist old testament type of christian, and an admirer of the crusaders and all that. Hell, i'm actually pretty sure you can perfectly justify his actions using the old testament somehow, considering the insane stuff it condones.

If you say you're a christian, and you have a tattoo, i can, based on the bible alone, say that it isn't true, because you wouldn't be following the laws put down by god. But then some christian guy might come along and refute that based on some ther version of the same belief. Christians can both agree with and disagree with fundies who are against gay marriage. Which of the two is a christian, and which is not?



Scar Symmetry said:


> Not sure I agree with this. Are you saying that the reason that humans aren't the same as animals is because they are the same?
> 
> Value is created by us true, but we are also categorically not in the same league as animals. We are so advanced, so self-aware, so morally obtuse that we cannot be lumped in with animals.
> 
> Biologically we are 100% animal and should try to treat ourselves that way in regards to food and excersize, but when it comes to ethics in the way we should treat other species it gets very complicated.
> 
> It's quite tricky to say with a straight face that the reason that a chicken isn't the same value as a human is because value is a human ethic system.



This is what i mean though, although i could've mentioned it more directly. Since values are entirely man-made, that means that we have to value things accordingly. Humans are worth more to us than chickens though, and considering our main biological goal is to ensure the further reproduction of our species, that makes sense.

There is such a thing as objective morality though, but that's harder to figure out, because we have to go into science and facts and all that


----------



## Nimgoble

MF_Kitten said:


> Morrisey is right, if we assume his values are correct. Sadly, for him, they aren't. His vegetarian/vegan idealism says that all creatures are equally valuable, ignoring the fact that value is non-existant and created by us, and is therefore relative and contextual.



And he's correct. There is no intrinsic value to life. Each and every one of us assigns our own values to things.



> So while he thinks the chickens are worth the same as any human, he's really just a dumb cunt who needs to spend some time alone in the african plains, where animals fucking slay eachother ruthlessly, and hunt down young animals because they are easy targets.



No, he's not. He has just assigned a different value to the concept of life. And he's equating life to life, regardless of what form the life takes.




> Morrisey is just being a dumb cunt who has no idea what weight goes behind the events he speaks of.



What is your evidence for this? How do you know he doesn't have any idea how much goes behind the events he speaks of?



> As for the religious debate, there is no point in trying to argue that he isn't a christian. How does one define that? Who gets to define that? If everyone could object to anyone's religion, then there would be no religious people, as everyone could be argued as not possibly belonging to their religion for X reasons.



A religion is defined by it's doctrines. Christians profess to follow the Bible. That is the bare minimum for someone to be a Christian. And, if they do, they can follow whichever parts they like. Anyone who says otherwise is committing the No True Scotsman Fallacy



Scar Symmetry said:


> Value is created by us true, but we are also categorically not in the same league as animals. We are so advanced, so self-aware, so morally obtuse that we cannot be lumped in with animals.



Sure we can. We're "advanced"(this implies some sort of ultimate end-point, which I don't agree with) in some areas more so than other animals. But not in all areas. Do these other animals, who advanced in their respective areas(e.g. a cheetah's running speed) also disqualify them from being lumped in with "other animals"? Or do they have to be far advanced in more than one area? Who decides this?

An animal is an animal. Any value that we assign is subjective. Sure, we can say that we're so much better, but that's not an absolute and it can be disputed by a person with a different set of values. It seems like you're looking for excuses to justify a Human Exceptionalism stance.



> Biologically we are 100% animal and should try to treat ourselves that way in regards to food and excersize, but when it comes to ethics in the way we should treat other species it gets very complicated.



How so? Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to here you expand on that.


----------



## Nimgoble

MF_Kitten said:


> I know what you mean, but if you ask a catholic about mormons, they will say they aren't true christians. If you ask a mormon about a jehova's witness, a jehova's witness about mormons... Well, you get the point. Who gets to say that THIS is the proper definition of what a christian is? Catholics? Protestants? Evangelics? If you have to strip away the differences and only use the similarities, then it would be "believing in a god, and his son jesus christ", mainly. If Breivik truly believes in Jesus Christ, and God almighty, then who are we to say that is not the case?
> 
> It's a perfect example of e No True Scotsman fallacy. Breivik is, from what i've read in his shitty manifesto, a fundamentalist old testament type of christian, and an admirer of the crusaders and all that. Hell, i'm actually pretty sure you can perfectly justify his actions using the old testament somehow, considering the insane stuff it condones.
> 
> If you say you're a christian, and you have a tattoo, i can, based on the bible alone, say that it isn't true, because you wouldn't be following the laws put down by god. But then some christian guy might come along and refute that based on some ther version of the same belief. Christians can both agree with and disagree with fundies who are against gay marriage. Which of the two is a christian, and which is not?



They are all a subset of "Christian".



> This is what i mean though, although i could've mentioned it more directly. Since values are entirely man-made, that means that we have to value things accordingly. Humans are worth more to us than chickens though, and considering our main biological goal is to ensure the further reproduction of our species, that makes sense.



No, humans are worth more than chickens to the majority of us. Not all of us. The Majority's values are not an absolute. Morrissey is just as correct in believing that all life is equal as you are in your Human Exceptionalism.



> There is such a thing as objective morality though, but that's harder to figure out, because we have to go into science and facts and all that



Not in the sense that you're using it in. Objective morality makes sense only if you recognize that it is dependent on subjective values.


----------



## chronocide

MF_Kitten said:


> There is such a thing as objective morality though, but that's harder to figure out, because we have to go into science and facts and all that



There can be no objective morality unless there is a divine creator.


----------



## vampiregenocide

I did write a long post about human life is no better than animal life and should be cared for and resected as much as possible, but then I remembered the world we live in and how ultimately pointless such a post would be.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Nimgoble said:


> Sure we can. We're "advanced"(this implies some sort of ultimate end-point, which I don't agree with) in some areas more so than other animals. But not in all areas. Do these other animals, who advanced in their respective areas(e.g. a cheetah's running speed) also disqualify them from being lumped in with "other animals"? Or do they have to be far advanced in more than one area? Who decides this?
> 
> An animal is an animal. Any value that we assign is subjective. Sure, we can say that we're so much better, but that's not an absolute and it can be disputed by a person with a different set of values. It seems like you're looking for excuses to justify a Human Exceptionalism stance.



Now we're talking! Something to get my teeth into, great. Ok, so are you saying that mentally humans are not advanced past all other animals to the point where it's not even worth questioning? Sure, each animal has their own "special trick", but ours is pretty fucking potent compared to being able to run fast. 

As I said, biologically we are of course 100% animals. The viewpoint that "we are so much better" is of course not absolute, but neither is "actually, we are not so much better".  

I realise that you have demonstrated your argument by disagreeing, but the second part of your post says to me you don't understand my viewpoint as I am thoroughly against human exceptionalism, just not in the same way that you seem to be.



Nimgoble said:


> How so? Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to here you expand on that.



The past few pages of this thread proves how complicated it can get, I don't need to expand on it.


----------



## XEN

chronocide said:


> There can be no objective morality unless there is a divine creator.


Causality is not engineered. It is a constant in this universe and the sole basis for objective morality.
Any moral code derived from religion or myth is based on a pathetically flawed analogy to actual truth.


----------



## Nimgoble

Scar Symmetry said:


> Now we're talking! Something to get my teeth into, great. Ok, so are you saying that mentally humans are not advanced past all other animals to the point where it's not even worth questioning? Sure, each animal has their own "special trick", but ours is pretty fucking potent compared to being able to run fast.



I am, in fact, disagreeing with that point. Example

Now, I am of the opinion that we are more advanced. I just don't think the gap between us and the next most intelligent life form on the planet is THAT large.



> As I said, biologically we are of course 100% animals. The viewpoint that "we are so much better" is of course not absolute, but neither is "actually, we are not so much better".



Lol. I quite agree. And I never said that his view point was anything but subjective. In fact, my statement(s) INCLUDED his view point, indirectly. But, the reason I brought it up was because of the rather absolutist statement made in this thread about morality and values.



> I realise that you have demonstrated your argument by disagreeing, but the second part of your post says to me you don't understand my viewpoint as I am thoroughly against human exceptionalism, just not in the same way that you seem to be.



I may not. Admittedly, I have not browsed this whole topic, so I may have missed some much needed insight in to your opinion. Would you care to pinpoint where our contention lies between our two viewpoints on human exceptionalism?



> The past few pages of this thread proves how complicated it can get, I don't need to expand on it.



Fair enough. I didn't read them. Perhaps I will.


----------



## MF_Kitten

chronocide said:


> There can be no objective morality unless there is a divine creator.



alright, objective might be the wrong word. science-and-facts-based non-emotional morality then.

I don't have the attention span to continue the argument from here on forward, so i will say that i am most likely wrong about stuff, and probably right about some of it, and others arguing with me is likely to be right about stuff i was wrong about.

Also, Morrisey is still a cunt. a misguided dumb cunt. i don't care if his values can't be called wrong, because i don't have to respect his values.


----------



## Demiurge

MF_Kitten said:


> I know what you mean, but if you ask a catholic about mormons, they will say they aren't true christians. If you ask a mormon about a jehova's witness, a jehova's witness about mormons... Well, you get the point. Who gets to say that THIS is the proper definition of what a christian is? Catholics? Protestants? Evangelics? If you have to strip away the differences and only use the similarities, then it would be "believing in a god, and his son jesus christ", mainly. If Breivik truly believes in Jesus Christ, and God almighty, then who are we to say that is not the case?



Well, I hope I don't sound entirely ad hoc about this  but the different sects of Christianity all share a tendency to introduce particular sets of dogma into their beliefs to where those who don't share in the dogma are excluded. Kind of like how some metalheads say, "if it has keyboards, it's not _metal_" where it's more idiomatic than literal. If you play a farfiza organ over South of Heaven, it's not made un-metal by the addition, but it no longer matches metal in the ideal of the person saying it.

This Breivik guy, if he says that he believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God, then he's nominally a Christian. His actions, though, express an intolerance and a disregard for life that is largely inconsistent with even the basic-stuff-everyone-agrees-with Christianity being about. He's a Christian, but a really really bad one.


----------



## Overtone

No joke, the other day i spent forty minutes trying to convince two people that humans are animals. Its kind of odd to see "who gets to decide that?" mentioned re who is a christian, since that was my sisters counter argument. It turned out the other person believes we are from another galaxy entirely so i really couldnt say anything to that, but it did take the conversation to a whole new place. If you are familiar with godlike productions you know what i mean. I enjoyed it and i really dont object to his beliefs, except that there are some seriouskl racist undertones. 

Re the cops response i think its seriously wrong if its true that the whole helicopter crew was allowed to be on vacation at once.


Also i am in stockholm and saw a big rally for norway in the square near the ahlens city.


----------



## chronocide

urklvt said:


> Causality is not engineered. It is a constant in this universe and the sole basis for objective morality.
> Any moral code derived from religion or myth is based on a pathetically flawed analogy to actual truth.



Note, I'm not a theist. Without a creator however, there can't be objective morality. All morality is subjective.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Nimgoble said:


> I am, in fact, disagreeing with that point. Example
> 
> Now, I am of the opinion that we are more advanced. I just don't think the gap between us and the next most intelligent life form on the planet is THAT large.





Nimgoble said:


> Lol. I quite agree. And I never said that his view point was anything but subjective. In fact, my statement(s) INCLUDED his view point, indirectly. But, the reason I brought it up was because of the rather absolutist statement made in this thread about morality and values.





Nimgoble said:


> I may not. Admittedly, I have not browsed this whole topic, so I may have missed some much needed insight in to your opinion. Would you care to pinpoint where our contention lies between our two viewpoints on human exceptionalism?





Nimgoble said:


> Fair enough. I didn't read them. Perhaps I will.



Yes, perhaps you should. Not appreciating your tone here buddy, you're coming off as condescending and argumentative. If it's a debate you wish to have, let's have it. However, I won't be baited into justifying myself post on post without you actually contributing yourself.


----------



## chimp_spanner

I've always thought morality has its roots in nature, not religion. Kind of a mix of self preservation (I don't hit you because you may hit me back harder and hurt/kill me) and our 'programming' ensuring the survival of our race. After all, we kind of function better in groups than on our own. We don't have fur, fangs, or a great deal of strength. Just our brains and funny looking paws!

So morality without a creator? I can buy that. If morality is generally not being a twat, we're programmed to do that from birth so as not to wipe ourselves out, just like virtually any other 'community' of complex life forms. 

Ironically it's usually belief (corrupted or otherwise) in a God or religion that gives people an excuse to break their innate moral code!

Is that even irony? You'd think by 27 I'd know  Anyway that's just my opinion, as someone who doesn't observe a religion.


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## Explorer

I believe there is more evidence for humans practicing primate politics than for there being an objective morality.

Primates, as a rule, treat those who are closer/more similar better than those distant/less similar. In the troop, there are factions, closer and more distant personal relationships, and so on. Once another troop appears, the troop unites and fights against the invaders.

Humans form those same primate bonds, but can do so with more intellectual reasoning involved. We can form relationships outside our species (pets, PETA), outside our immediate area ("Oh, those poor people in that country who were just hit by a meteor!"), based on cuteness ("Save the naked mole rat!"), or the same faith ("We need to help those poor members of our religion who are being oppressed in this foreign country!"). 

Humans can also practice primate politics when other species or similar primates are viewed as threats intellectually. "Kill the spotted owls! They took our jobs!" "Those people don't believe this particular aspect of our faith, so they're not really members of our faith! Kill them with a rock!" 

I think my theory of primate politics has much more support than a theory of morality arising from any divine source. Any time someone makes claims of divine inspiration, one sees all kinds of apologetics when actions don't match divinity. Primate politics is a better predictive model.


----------



## Phrygian

chronocide said:


> if there's truth in initial reports of the situation being ignored though... Christ.



In the newspapers here there was a story of a father who got a phonecall from his daughter that was on the island, telling him that shit was going down. so he called the police while he had her on the other phone and the guy/gal answering at the emergency sentral told him this, "they have to call us themselves" and that was that.


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## highlordmugfug

Phrygian said:


> In the newspapers here there was a story of a father who got a phonecall from his daughter that was on the island, telling him that shit was going down. so he called the police while he had her on the other phone and the guy/gal answering at the emergency sentral told him this, "they have to call us themselves" and that was that.


D:=


Reminds me of the girl who's dad had just had brain surgery, he had a seizure, she called 911 and was cursing because she was freaking out, and the operator told her to watch her mouth and hung up on her: multiple times. She kept calling back and he hung up on her like 3 times. Then they arrested her when he finally did send someone. 

It's fucking mindblowing that there are people that would really do shit like that out there.


----------



## Nimgoble

Scar Symmetry said:


> Yes, perhaps you should. Not appreciating your tone here buddy, you're coming off as condescending and argumentative. If it's a debate you wish to have, let's have it. However, I won't be baited into justifying myself post on post without you actually contributing yourself.



Whoa, whoa, whoa. Then there has been a misunderstanding. If anything, my tone was a little dry. But it's just because I was trying to be calm about everything. I didn't want the debate to get emotionally charged.

Condescending? No. Argumentative? Sure. We're having an argument, though, not a heated one...I hope...?

And I do believe I have contributed. I've even cited examples. And asked for clarification, just so I don't accidentally attack a straw man.


----------



## XEN

chronocide said:


> Note, I'm not a theist. Without a creator however, there can't be objective morality. All morality is subjective.


I agree that for the most part morality is highly subjective. However, I believe that a creator is unnecessary for there to be such a thing as objective morality. We assume that for it to be objective there has to be a singular source or point of origin. The collective consciousness of the organism of man is a far more viable source, and does not require a leap of faith.


----------



## Explorer

I don't know about how morality could be objective, unless you're talking about biological imperatives.

At their core, all successful living organisms seek to derive enough energy from their environments to ensure continuation of their genetics, whether through breeding, asexual reproduction or other methods. 

When those organisms (I'm including viruses in that category, even though there is debate on this) come in competition with other organisms for those same resources, then there is usually a struggle for those resources. 

Based on different perceptions, different organisms, in as much as they might think about this at all, would have different moralities. Viruses would view things different from dogs. Christian pilgrims in the New World would have no problem with giving infectious blankets to the native populations to surreptitiously kill large numbers of them, in order to eliminate competition for the resources the natives would have shared with them. 

Unless the proposed "objective morality" has to do with seeking to continue one's genetics, there is too much evidence against any other imperative as a basis for such morality. 

Out of curiosity... from those who feel there is an objective morality, what form does that take?


----------



## Waelstrum

I think (a good preface for a post on objectivity ) that if there is an objective morality, it would be a biological one as you described. The problem with that is if it is only "do what is best for you species" then when species come into conflict, the victor will be moral in their own eyes, but immoral in the eyes of the defeated. It could be argued that therefore a more overarching objective morality could be "do what is best for all forms of life". But that is almost never going to apply, as the nature of life is that it is in competition with itself. Unless we pool all our resources into balancing all life on earth into some sort of perfect symbiosis (which IMO would be difficult bordering on impossible).


----------



## chronocide

chimp_spanner said:


> I've always thought morality has its roots in nature, not religion. Kind of a mix of self preservation (I don't hit you because you may hit me back harder and hurt/kill me) and our 'programming' ensuring the survival of our race. After all, we kind of function better in groups than on our own. We don't have fur, fangs, or a great deal of strength. Just our brains and funny looking paws!



Yep, all morality is evolved, and its most basic root is "don't do to others what I don't want to happen to me" which can be observed in near enough any group of creatures. It's subjective, though.



> So morality without a creator? I can buy that. If morality is generally not being a twat, we're programmed to do that from birth so as not to wipe ourselves out, just like virtually any other 'community' of complex life forms.



Of course you can have morality without religion, it just can't ever be objective without a divine rulemaker.



urklvt said:


> I agree that for the most part morality is highly subjective. However, I believe that a creator is unnecessary for there to be such a thing as objective morality. We assume that for it to be objective there has to be a singular source or point of origin. The collective consciousness of the organism of man is a far more viable source, and does not require a leap of faith.



I will happily listen to any example of a moral code that can be argued to be objective.


----------



## Waelstrum

chronocide said:


> I will happily listen to any example of a moral code that can be argued to be objective.



I'm not saying either is necessarily correct, but I just gave two examples which could be considered a close approximation.


----------



## chronocide

I don't see that you've given an example of any kind of objective morality?


----------



## Waelstrum

Waelstrum said:


> I"do what is best for you species" or "do what is best for all forms of life".


Again, not necessarily saying that these are absolute, but these are possibilities.


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## chronocide

"What's best for your species" and "Do unto others..." are the usual ones I hear quoted, but both are intensely subjective.


----------



## Waelstrum

Well, yeah the do unto other one I always found a bit weird when you apply it to situations like rape and masochism (as extreme examples).

I also agree that determining what's best for the species is a very grey area, and also in a hypothetical situation isn't what I might call moral. One example being eugenics, which might very well make our species a great and powerful one, but it seems a bit ruthless. (Plus I don't much fancy being sterilised/culled.)


----------



## vampiregenocide

chronocide said:


> "What's best for your species" and "Do unto others..." are the usual ones I hear quoted, but both are intensely subjective.


 
The general rule of thumb is don't do anything that would cause harm or loss to another person. That pretty much covers everything.


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## chronocide

I would say that's pretty much the _basis_ of morality, absolutely. And it's subjective. Morality always is unless you a have a divine rulemaker to instruct you as to what is right and wrong.

Which we don't, obviously.


----------



## Explorer

vampiregenocide said:


> The general rule of thumb is don't do anything that would cause harm or loss to another person. That pretty much covers everything.



But even here, varying definitions mean this rule of thumb is not applied to everyone. Is it that the early American settlers didn't perceive the natives as people? Or the Australian transports perceiving the aborigines?

What about the Taliban, who don't view other Muslims as real Muslims? 

And wouldn't those examples illustrate how subjectively we apply morality as a species?

The human history of the world is more about mouthing platitudes about loving one's neighbor until push comes to shove. Sadly, those shoves aren't even necessarily about things which are necessities. The Japanese forcing Korean women into pleasure houses, forced to be whores for Japanese military? A completely different definition of "love thy neighbor." The gulags. The Long March. The Hutu mutilating and killing Tutsi women with machetes. 

Every moment of triumph on American Idol has the voyeuristic pleasure of the audience cheering on their favorites has its counterpart in the voyeuristic schadenfreude (joy in the misfortunes of another) when people clearly have no ability to sing at that level... and American Idol knows it. They even broadcast those who fail spectacularly, and those episodes are often better rated than the normal competition broadcasts. 

I'd argue that humans like to think of themselves as nice, and that's why so much lip service is paid to "love thy neighbor." "Oh, of *course* we're nice people... wait, don't let that person butt ahead of us in the merge lane!"


----------



## vampiregenocide

Explorer said:


> But even here, varying definitions mean this rule of thumb is not applied to everyone. Is it that the early American settlers didn't perceive the natives as people? Or the Australian transports perceiving the aborigines?
> 
> What about the Taliban, who don't view other Muslims as real Muslims?
> 
> And wouldn't those examples illustrate how subjectively we apply morality as a species?
> 
> The human history of the world is more about mouthing platitudes about loving one's neighbor until push comes to shove. Sadly, those shoves aren't even necessarily about things which are necessities. The Japanese forcing Korean women into pleasure houses, forced to be whores for Japanese military? A completely different definition of "love thy neighbor." The gulags. The Long March. The Hutu mutilating and killing Tutsi women with machetes.
> 
> Every moment of triumph on American Idol has the voyeuristic pleasure of the audience cheering on their favorites has its counterpart in the voyeuristic schadenfreude (joy in the misfortunes of another) when people clearly have no ability to sing at that level... and American Idol knows it. They even broadcast those who fail spectacularly, and those episodes are often better rated than the normal competition broadcasts.
> 
> I'd argue that humans like to think of themselves as nice, and that's why so much lip service is paid to "love thy neighbor." "Oh, of *course* we're nice people... wait, don't let that person butt ahead of us in the merge lane!"


 
It's not varying definitions of morality, it's just a change in how we apply it. One person can choose to put aside morals to further themselves at the expense of others. Causing harm to someone else is pretty much always wrong, whatever faith or nationality you're from. I think as a race we do have a collective sense of morality built into us, but sometimes we chose to ignore it.

This is reflected in nature. Sand tiger shark babies take part in inter-uterine cannibalism. A couple dozen baby sharks basically eat each other until birth, when only a few if that are left. Those that are left are stronger and well fed so they enter the world ready for what it has to offer. Now on a numbers level, all those babies inside that womb never stood a fighting chance and only existed as food for the strongest. The shark has evolved a way of furthering it's own species in a pretty dark and harsh way. As humans we have a concious decision whether we want to 'cannibalise' our brothers and sisters to increase our chances of sucess, or we can use this gift of understanding to help society as a whole progress, instead of rising on the shoulders of the weak. Unfortunately, many people prefer to put morals aside and take the more aggressive route.


Human beings have shown time and time again that we're willing to go against nature whenever we choose to. We're rogue animals with selfish intentions, and we don't see the long term effects of he damage we cause. Morality is another aspect of our nature that we're still coming to terms with collectively. Some people want to embrace it fully and to create a world that is safe for everyone, whereas some only seek self preservation. They want their religion to be universal, their country to be the most powerful, their company to be the most wealthy etc and they'll do anything they can to achieve this.

So for this people, it's not that they have a different definition of morality it's just that they don't need it at all. Not causing harm or loss to another human isn't really open to interpretation, it can be applied to any interaction with another being. Killing someone or forcing them to do something they don't want to, goes against this rule, and therefore can be considered immoral. There are very few instances where it becomes foggy, but even then it can be dealt with. The only problem is whether people _want_ to retain a sense of morality, or whether they'd rather just better themselves whatever that may take. 


Or some bullshit.



EDIT - To summarise, because as often I got carried away, yes humans apply morality subjectively but that is their error it doesn't mean morality is at fault if that makes sense. People do think they're nice but we still play the same gane of survival that we always have, which often means stepping on others.


----------



## Explorer

So... it still sounds like primate politics are a better descriptor of what's actually happening. Primate politics is applicable in all cases, and doesn't require an explanation of why it gets put aside. 

As soon as you start coming up with explanations for exceptions to morality, it's not an accurate theory or description of the real world. Having to layer on exception after exception takes it from parsimony to apologetics. It's the philosophical equivalent to retrograde motion. Only by using heliocentricism does one explain such motion better than possible with geocentrism.

There was better evidence for heliocentrism than geocentrism, even though geocentrism appealed greatly to humans' beliefs about the world and themselves. Similarly, there is better evidence for primate politics than morality, even though morality appeals greatly to humans' beliefs about the world and themselves.


----------



## vampiregenocide

Explorer said:


> So... it still sounds like primate politics are a better descriptor of what's actually happening. Primate politics is applicable in all cases, and doesn't require an explanation of why it gets put aside.
> 
> As soon as you start coming up with explanations for exceptions to morality, it's not an accurate theory or description of the real world. Having to layer on exception after exception takes it from parsimony to apologetics. It's the philosophical equivalent to retrograde motion. Only by using heliocentricism does one explain such motion better than possible with geocentrism.
> 
> There was better evidence for heliocentrism than geocentrism, even though geocentrism appealed greatly to humans' beliefs about the world and themselves. Similarly, there is better evidence for primate politics than morality, even though morality appeals greatly to humans' beliefs about the world and themselves.


 
Well I think we're well aware that humans are the exception to a lot of rules in terms of nature, so trying to pin things down isn't very easy at all. I think the key issue is we spend too much time thinking about it and in doing so getting muddled up with our own ideals, therefore losing sight of the migger picture which is ultimately what morality is as it does not simply apply to an individual. Seeing as humans live in a very divided lifestyle compared to animals, which don't have religion or lifestyle decisions that we do, we therefore pidgeon-hole ourselves into certain ways of thinking, clouding our judgement and ability to come up with a common ground.

Morality is an ideal, an ideal that some might say is out of reach. It reflects both our instinctual desire to create a better society. The 'no harm or loss' rule is pretty water tight, and there aren't many exceptions to it. I only accepted that there might be because I can't account for every single instance where a person might potentially wrong another. 

It's a funny thing. I don't think there is a real right or wrong answer as long as individually we learn from each other in trying to find a common ground.


Also, where the hell did this thread go.


----------



## Explorer

vampiregenocide said:


> Morality is an ideal, an ideal that some might say is out of reach. It reflects both our instinctual desire to create a better society. The 'no harm or loss' rule is pretty water tight, and there aren't many exceptions to it. I only accepted that there might be because I can't account for every single instance where a person might potentially wrong another.



I listed a wealth of exceptions to it. One need only read the newspaper or watch the news to find those exceptions. 

I'd say that there are lots of people who want to believe there is such a morality. Similarly, there are lots of people who consider themselves moral who want to believe that gays and lesbians aren't decent people because of who they choose to have consensual sex with, and so on. 

Going from "Some people hold this as an ideal" to "This is what morality is" is a leap without evidence. If I can argue all aspects of human treatment of other beings using primate politics, and if the only way to get around exceptions is to just ignore them or to say that one's theory of morality just has to treat them as exceptions to the rule... then that rule doesn't really act as a rule. It's just wishful thinking. 

----

In case more examples are needed, where someone could decide to treat someone better but doesn't in order to preserve resources for themselves and their own troop of primates:

Illegal immigration
Lower taxes on those least able to pay taxes
Better programs to feed hungry children
Acceptable civilian casualties in a foreign country

and so on. 

When push comes to shove, morality and other ideals normally get pushed to the side by survival and protection of one's bloodline (whether actual or adopted). Cooperation is a strategy which has helped primates, but it's a strategy which can be abandoned if there is advantage in a different strategy.


----------



## Jakke

"Do unto others what they have done unto you" has always worked fine for me...

Just chippin' in


----------



## Waelstrum

vampiregenocide said:


> Also, where the hell did this thread go.



I was just thinking this, but I think it's actually a sign of a good forum that when faced with such a horrific display, we get into a discussion about the nature of morality.



I seem once again to be agreeing with Explorer. I would just like to say on the topic of primate politics:
1) Wouldn't our politics be considered primate politics even if we acted different to the others, as we are also primates?
2) &#x202a;Tim Minchin...Confessions -&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube
particularly 5:24

EDIT: I can't get the video to embed.


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## chronocide

vampiregenocide said:


> Also, where the hell did this thread go.



Someone said objective morality exists, I said it doesn't (cause it doesn't) and BANG.


----------



## zappatton2

I found this to be a very interesting conversation on the nature of morality, if one has the patience to sit through it and put up with the guy in the sunglasses with the mic:



I find that people, much like the guy holding the microphone here, who can only think in absolutes, are potentially more dangerous to the public at large by being less flexible in their understanding of those around them, and much more likely to dehumanize those they disagree with (which to me is a big part of what happened with this dude in Norway, when you're too rigid, you're more likely to snap).


----------



## thatsanegative

From the Asses mouth. Sounds like he shares more in common with various views expressed on this site here and there more than any thing Christian.
He also makes little sense and contradicts himself.

WASHINGTON &#8211; A review of Anders Behring Breivik's 1,500-page manifesto shows the media's quick characterization of the Norwegian terrorist as a "Christian" may be as incorrect as it was to call Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh one. 
Breivik was arrested over the weekend, charged with a pair of brutal attacks in and near Oslo, Norway, including a bombing in the capital city that killed 7 and a shooting spree at a youth political retreat on the island of Utoya that killed more than 80 victims. 
Piecing together Breivik's various posts on the Internet, many media reports have characterized the terrorist &#8211; who says he was upset over the multiculturalist policies stemming from Norway's Labour Party &#8211; as a "right-wing, Christian fundamentalist." 
Yet, while McVeigh rejected God altogether, Breivik writes in his manifesto that he is not religious, has doubts about God's existence, does not pray, but does assert the primacy of Europe's "Christian culture" as well as his own pagan Nordic culture. 
Breivik instead hails Charles Darwin, whose evolutionary theories stand in contrast to the claims of the Bible, and affirms: "As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings. Europe has always been the cradle of science, and it must always continue to be that way. Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I'm not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe." 
_Discover how both totalitarianism and terrorism will wilt in the face of true freedom with "The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror."_ 
The terrorist also candidly admits he finds no support within either the Catholic or Protestant churches for his violent ideas. 
"I trust that the future leadership of a European cultural conservative hegemony in Europe will ensure that the current Church leadership are replaced and the systems somewhat reformed," he writes. "We must have a Church leadership who supports a future Crusade with the intention of liberating the Balkans, Anatolia and creating three Christian states in the Middle East. Efforts should be made to facilitate the de-construction of the Protestant Church whose members should convert back to Catholicism. The Protestant Church had an important role once, but its original goals have been accomplished and have contributed to reform the Catholic Church as well. Europe should have a united Church lead [sic] by a just and non-suicidal pope who is willing to fight for the security of his subjects, especially in regards to Islamic atrocities." 
_(Story continues below)_



While Breivik says he considers himself "100-percent Christian,"[huh? how i don't understand since he basically professes otherwise in every other statement] he also expresses pride in his genealogical roots. 
"I am very proud of my Viking heritage," he writes. "My name, Breivik, is a location name from northern Norway, and can be dated back to even before the Viking era. Behring is a pre-Christian Germanic name, which is derived from Behr, the Germanic word for Bear (or 'those who are protected by the bear')." 
And while characterizing himself as "Christian" and "Protestant," Breivik says he supports "a reformation of Protestantism leading to it being absorbed by Catholisism." [sic] 
Likewise, media reports frequently characterized McVeigh as a "Christian," though he adamantly denied any religious beliefs or convictions &#8211; placing his faith in science. 
Breivik adds, "I went from moderately agnostic to moderately religious." 
In a question-and-answer section of his manifesto, Breivik asks himself, "What should be our civilisational [sic] objectives, how do you envision a perfect Europe?" 
His answer is hardly the response of a "Christian utopian": "'Logic' and rationalist thought (a certain degree of national Darwinism) should be the fundament [sic] of our societies. I support the propagation of collective rational thought but not necessarily on a personal level." 
Religious worship and study is never noted in the manifesto as part of Breivik's routine in preparing for his mission of mass murder. In discussing his preparation for the attack, he writes: "It has been a long-term process since I first decided I wanted to contribute. But it's not like I have been isolated for years. I have almost lived a normal life up until now. I still have a close relationship with my friends and family, just not as tight as it used to be. As for my current situation, I have been working on this book now for almost two years. It's essential that you reward yourself and enjoy life in this period. You can do things you normally wouldn't have done. You can basically live a normal life if you chose to; you just have to be extra careful. I have been practising [sic] certain rituals and meditation to strengthen my beliefs and convictions. For me, the most common ritual is taking a long walk listening to my favourite [sic] music on my iPod." 
Breivik also points out that his association with Christian cultural values is one of political expedience rather than religious commitment or faith 
"My choice has nothing to do with the fact that I am not proud of my own traditions and heritage," he explains. "My choice was based purely pragmatism. All Europeans are in this boat together, so we must choose a more moderate platform that can appeal to a great number of Europeans &#8211; preferably up to 50 percent (realistically up to 35 percent)." 
Breivik also claims membership in the Freemasons, which many Christians consider to be a cultic organization. 
More specifically, he calls himself a Justiciar Knight and explains what that means insofar as belief in Christianity: 
"As this is a cultural war, our definition of being a Christian does not necessarily constitute that you are required to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus," he writes. "Being a Christian can mean many things; That you believe in and want to protect Europe's Christian cultural heritage. The European cultural heritage, our norms (moral codes and social structures included), our traditions and our modern political systems are based on Christianity &#8211; Protestantism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and the legacy of the European enlightenment (reason is the primary source and legitimacy for authority). It is not required that you have a personal relationship with God or Jesus in order to fight for our Christian cultural heritage and the European way. In many ways, our modern societies and European secularism is a result of European Christendom and the enlightenment. It is therefore essential to understand the difference between a 'Christian fundamentalist theocracy' (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want). So no, you don't need to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus to fight for our Christian cultural heritage. It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy (Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter)). The PCCTS, Knights Templar is therefore not a religious organisation [sic] but rather a Christian 'culturalist' military order." 
Over and over again, Breivik goes out of his way to make clear to readers of his manifesto that he is not motivated by Christian faith. 
"I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie," he says. "I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment. In the past, I remember I used to think: 'Religion is a crutch for weak people. What is the point in believing in a higher power if you have confidence in yourself!? Pathetic.' Perhaps this is true for many cases. Religion is a crutch for many weak people, and many embrace religion for self-serving reasons as a source for drawing mental strength (to feed their weak emotional state [for] example during illness, death, poverty etc.). Since I am not a hypocrite, I'll say directly that this is my agenda as well. However, I have not yet felt the need to ask God for strength, yet."


And here is the mindset of some of those people. Nice folks. Really "tolerant" of someones differing opinion.
Or more honestly just ignorant punks.

07-31-2011 05:15 PM Fuck off you idiot




Extreme Rightwing... 07-25-2011 06:53 AM Go find another forum if you are just here to promote your religion



Extreme Rightwing... 07-24-2011 08:06 PM You really joined up just to keep people from thinking this crazy dude was Christian? Get the fuck out of here.



Extreme Rightwing... 07-24-2011 04:45 PM eat shit



Extreme Rightwing... 07-24-2011 03:12 PM Enjoy some neg rep


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## chronocide

What sites are you copying and pasting from?

And signing up to a guitar site in which politics is a very minor subforum specifically to argue the toss over whether a terrorist is Christian or not is likely to draw some ire. I don't think you should be surprised.


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## Explorer

That's weird. I wonder if this is someone who was already a member and who wanted to weigh in on this subject again under a different name. I mean, what are the odds that a cut-and-paste crazy (and I've commented on how scary that kind of person is to me, given how so many nutjobs give in to that style before going off on innocent people) would choose a forum mostly focused on metal and 7- and 8-string guitars to make a stand?

Reported, even though banned, so that the mods can look into that possibility.


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## Miek

I have no clue what just happened.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr-

I'm getting worried about some of you people...

The thread has a title.

Discussion of other topics not necessary.

Cut & Paste is not posters own view by default.

*sigh*

The quote is relevant to the threads title. It appears in many places elsewhere on the internet.

The quote, if genuine, appears to shed light on the context this killer used religious terminology. Who cares?

Bits of the copy&paste provided by thatsanegative are all over the internet. This looks like the most complete text a 2 second google search can find.

I took a random line (not an obvious one) copy and pasted into startpage.com and found it in MANY places. It' no big deal, really.

Here is a link to the World Daily News website which also has this story verbatim:
Terrorist proclaimed himself 'Darwinian,' not 'Christian'

...

I think some people here are losing a grip on reality, especially condemning someone for copy&pasting a relevant INTERVIEW with the subject of the discussion and with such scorn.



> Explorer...
> cut-and-paste crazy (and I've commented on how scary that kind of person is to me, given how so many nutjobs give in to that style before going off on innocent people)



???

The copy&paste had more relevance to the topic than your original recounting of atrocities and likening of human culture to animalistic levels, both of which are unpleasant to contemplate.

Can you imagine the consequences of convincing man he is an animal and nothing more? From that starting point a moral society would be impossible. People have tried it before...

Enough of that. 

Sorry I dropped by to see what was happening in here... It's a train wreck. Reactionaries stifling the debate and learning opportunities.

@vampiregenocide; I enjoyed reading your posts.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr-

My take on the whole thing is it's a gross, sadistic publicity stunt to draw attention to the killer's political ideology, which is available in many formats with the movie soon to follow... No doubt.

I would suggest you learn more about the "Anglo-Saxon Mission" to discover more. Essentially a modern crusade to ensure European global supremacy, carried out by various clandestine groups. The church figures in this agenda in its' traditional role as the "opiate of the masses", hence speculation regarding it's role in the ideology, much to the shock of the faithful.

These are the conclusions I would draw from the copy&paste, but I will discern at a later date when there is more information.

No doubt he believed in this, too:
Theosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He clearly wasn't too bright, after all, who is going to be concerned with the thoughts of an abomination???


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## Explorer

I have no problem with people posting intelligent points. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the killer's manifesto had a lot of copy-and-paste, which I always find scary. 

Regarding whether humans are animals or not... I take it you're arguing that there is an objective or higher morality... although empirically that morality is easily set aside in practice, thus making it not really higher or objective at all? I don't know if you're just posting a drive-by assertion, or if you intend to actually make that point. 

I'm assuming that you feel that countries which are not religious in the same way as the United States, and which don't rely on religious views as the basis for how people behave, are likely to have more violent crime per capita than the United States. Even by that rubric, your horror at people basing their behavior on other criteria seems to be unfounded. 

I'm happy to discuss this... but I suspect that the facts will not be on your side.


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## chronocide

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> Can you imagine the consequences of convincing man he is an animal and nothing more? From that starting point a moral society would be impossible. People have tried it before...



Well we are just animals. And our moral basis can be observed in nature. In near enough any and all species. Most are more moral in terms of how the treat other species and the environment, of course...



> Reactionaries stifling the debate and learning opportunities.



Not half as stifling as strict adherence to this attitude would have it:



> The thread has a title.
> 
> Discussion of other topics not necessary.



Conversation moves, takes in different things and that's a good thing, it's how we learn, no?


And copy/paste walls of text with no opinion nor remark attached are irritating, how often they can be found on the internet has little relevance.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr-

> killer's manifesto had a lot of copy-and-paste,


@Explorer From your text it was clear you were referring to thatsanegative copy&pasting a widely available public domain text. But, as I haven't read the manifesto, I'm not aware of his writing habits.

Sorry Explorer, I cannot agree with science's assertion through observing animals that man's actions through it's leaders form the truth of human nature. I disregard all such argument on moral grounds, although I do find it interesting to some extent.

The point of leaders is that their moral compass differs from the average. It is the very reason they are "revered" or reviled.

For instance, James Murdoch's claims in a recent speech that "independence can only be ensured by profit." In light of recent revelations it is clear his moral compass differs from the average. There's a thread for further comment on that, it is just an example.

Citizens are free to choose their morality, within the boundaries of law. History's atrocities have always been forced upon the people or select groups amongst them. So, I would suggest, anthropologists would do better to view humanity from a perspective other than nations, which are changeable, to determine the pattern of human moral development. Perhaps art, music or creativity would be behaviours more interesting, although they fall out of the realms of non-human's abilities.

Plato - 
- One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.


Why not enjoy some more of his quotes?
Plato - Memorable Quotes and quotations from

Why not take some time to review the Phone Hacking Thread? I've placed some new mainstream British television documentary links there, which go some way to explaining the nature of politics and leaders over the last 30-40 years. But we all thought it was like that anyway... Right? 



Anyway, in terms of the topic, this killer felt absolved of morality because it served his cause. According to the interview, copy&pasted above and freely available online, he placed himself into a period of programming to desensitise himself for his mission. This is not a new technique.

Too be honest, I give up with this. I find this whole configuration to be distasteful. I don't want to spend my time on these topics. Proving people who appear to be significant to the heirarchy of this planet are incompetent is too easy... Thus I disagree with concepts based on their failings to describe the content of man.

Thanks again for the cerebral excercise. I'm very much done with insight into the minds of the deluded. I hope someone gains something from it.

Explorer; Why have you made me defend your sovereign rights as a human being? 

As a Darwinist etc. you have already sacrificed the physical to millenia, at least have some respect for your own consciousness. Believe what you like, but no monkey can argue like you can! 

Driving by now.....


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## Ryan-ZenGtr-

@chronocide

What I was inferring for the not reading between the lines people is that many nefarious entities have tried to control people. Telling them they are worthless monkeys, however you wrap it up, is not good for their self esteem. Think about it a minute.

I'm not debating Darwin or evolution. Just talking about why a killer would treat people as worthless to draw attention to himself. See?

*sigh*

Post appeared just after I was finished typing my sensible answer. Couldn't resist clarifying. Science may be right, but if it turns people into angst ridden emotional cripples on a global scale..... This monkey thing is 200 year old. Get over it!

Edit: 

"Most are more moral in terms of how the treat other species and the environment, of course..." you judge yourself on those terms?

Debate - I'm aware of the definition.

"this attitude" - what attitude? Make new thread for new topic if worthy, this looks worthy, call it "Evolution of consciousness: debate". I'll get some awesome links for you there.  It's a more positive place to start as well, rather than aggrandising a murderer.

Reactionaries - in reference to the abuse received by thatsanegative

Basically, why are we talking about the truth of humanity in a murderers thread??? FFS. Despicable.


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## chronocide

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> @chronocide
> 
> What I was inferring for the not reading between the lines people is that many nefarious entities have tried to control people. Telling them they are worthless monkeys, however you wrap it up, is not good for their self esteem. Think about it a minute.



Impressively condescending. Saying people is animals is not saying they are worthless monkeys. It's saying we are animals and many of our behaviours can be observed in them and apply in the same fashion, including what might be called morality.



> I'm not debating Darwin or evolution.



Neither was anyone else that I recall.



> Post appeared just after I was finished typing my sensible answer. Couldn't resist clarifying. Science may be right, but if it turns people into angst ridden emotional cripples on a global scale..... This monkey thing is 200 year old. Get over it!



What turns people into angst-ridden, emotional cripples? Knowing that they are in fact only different from other animals via their evolved intelligence and opposable thumbs? Oh well. Tough shit.

We're not monkeys. Never were. This science thing is older than that, but we shouldn't get over it.

EDIT: To answer your edit -



> "Most are more moral in terms of how the treat other species and the environment, of course..." you judge yourself on those terms?



Yes. In condemnatory fashion.



> Debate - I'm aware of the definition.



Jolly good.



> "this attitude" - what attitude? Make new thread for new topic if worthy, this looks worthy, call it "Evolution of consciousness: debate". I'll get some awesome links for you there. It's a more positive place to start as well, rather than aggrandising a murderer.



People were debating the evolution of consciousness? Nobody was aggrandising a murderer.



> Reactionaries - in reference to the abuse received by thatsanegative



I was aware of who you were calling reactionaries, yes.



> Basically, why are we talking about the truth of humanity in a murderers thread??? FFS. Despicable.



Why is it despicable? Everyone is in agreement the guy was a cunt. Better a starting point for some potentially interesting conversation than 14 pages wallowing in misery.


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## Waelstrum

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> I cannot agree with science's assertion through observing animals that man's actions through it's leaders form the truth of human nature. I disregard all such argument on moral grounds, although I do find it interesting to some extent.



You disregard the evidence because you don't like the result? I originally typed a quite condescending post, but deleted it, as it would offend and I wouldn't get an answer. I genuinely want to know why you think that this is an appropriate way of seeing the world?


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## Scar Symmetry

Everyone here needs to take a chill pill in their left hand, a slice of humble pie in their right hand, crush the chill pill over the humble pie and consume in a relaxed fashion. 

Claims of "but I'm already calm" have already been anticipated.

Absolutism is ridiculous, humans are monkeys and Breivik is a douche.

[/thread]


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## chronocide

Scar Symmetry said:


> ...humans are monkeys...



Apes


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## daemon barbeque

I don't understand why stating that the Humans are also animal should degrade them. Monkeys are not useless anyway.
I am a Vet, I work all the time with animals, and we are soooooooooooooo similar, and I am not talking about the DNA or compatibility of organs. I am talking about behaviour. Separating Humans from Animals would be what an Ape do. They do the same on daylie basis. Separating their tribes from others, and acting high and mighty


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## Wingchunwarrior

Scar Symmetry said:


> Everyone here needs to take a chill pill in their left hand, a slice of humble pie in their right hand, crush the chill pill over the humble pie and consume in a relaxed fashion.
> 
> Claims of "but I'm already calm" have already been anticipated.
> 
> Absolutism is ridiculous, humans are monkeys and Breivik is a douche.
> 
> [/thread]


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## Randy

Norway jails "sane" Breivik for maximum term - Yahoo! News


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## Dores

I am so sick of foreign media not putting enough emphasis on the fact that even though his sentence is 21 years, he WILL NEVER BE RELEASED. EVER. The will be able to increase his sentence after it has ended if he is still considered a threat to society, and he has several times stated that he would repeat his actions if released. Upon receiving the sentence, he even apologized for not killing more people.

He will never be released.


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## Bigfan

Yup. 'Forvaring' simply means his sentence can be increased by five years indefinitely. 

A lot of people, even in Norway, don't understand this, apparently


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