# Engl vs. Mesa



## eon_shift (Sep 25, 2007)

let discuss the differences between the powerball and the dual recto the ups and downs of each one which one has more distortion better cleans etc.
lets keep away from what you can put in front of them to make the tighter or smoother. im trying to make a list of amps and i need to narrow it down and one of these needs to disappear.


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

more distortion? man, both of those amps have more gain than you'll ever need.


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## eon_shift (Sep 25, 2007)

youd be surpprised i usually run gain at 10 so id still like to know


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## zimbloth (Sep 25, 2007)

The Powerball has a very scooped, processed, solid-state feel to it. You can crank the mids up but the amp still is not very mid-focused. It is articulate, clear, excellent attack and power. 

The Mesa on the other hand, has much richer mids, more dynamic organic tone, with loads of crunch and bite but not as processed and articulate as the Powerball. Mesas need the Tube Screamers in front of it, eventhough you don't want to talk about that, it is the x-factor for the amp. The cleans on the Mesa are better as well.

With the right speakers and tweaks, I definitely think the Dual Rectifier is far superior, despite the Powerball's current popularity trend.

If you are considering an affordable ENGL, I vastly prefer the tone of the Fireball model. It has more character, not as ultra-bright and processed sounding. Obviously the ENGL Invader/SE models are probably amazing and would crush both amps.

You could also look into a used Framus or VHT for those prices. You should also know the character of the TRIPLE Rectifier might be a lot more to your liking. The Triples have a tighter, more focused and brutal attack/crunch. Definitely the most brutal Mesa amp made (that I've played).



eon_shift said:


> youd be surpprised i usually run gain at 10 so id still like to know



You can do that with a Line 6 Spider. You won't be doing that with a high-gain tube amp. There's the occasional newbie/lunatic who would dime the gain on a ENGL or Mesa, but for the most part the best tones usually are had with the gain in the 3 to 6 range. Again, a Tube Screamer in front of a tube amp is key. You can run the amps gain lower, but still get the same perceived gain...except it _feels_ better, more liquidity and tight.


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

eon_shift said:


> youd be surpprised i usually run gain at 10 so id still like to know



well, considering that you currently have a solid state amp, i'm not surprised at all that you run the gain at ten. when i had a solid state amp, i did too.
tube gain is completely different than solid state gain.
at a certain point, the gain knobs on both the powerball and the recto don't really add more gain, so much as they add more fizz.

when i played through the powerball, keeping the gain at about 10:00-11:00 was really all i needed to get some very crushing tones.
the gain knob on the dual recto i used to own never made it past 12:00-1:00, and i got tones suitable to the liking of most brutal death metal fans.

any more than that, and those amps turn into fizzy balls of noise.

the recto has a much more lush midrange than the powerball, and had a more organic feel to it. i'd go with the recto.


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## eon_shift (Sep 25, 2007)

i guess the real question then is can a mesa dual or triple recto do brutal death metal or would the engl do it better and still be able to pull a john petrucci


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

eon_shift said:


> i guess the real question then is can a mesa dual or triple recto do brutal death metal or would the engl do it better and still be able to pull a john petrucci



i wasn't really trying to get a petrucci tone when i played the powerball, so i can't really say for that one.

the recto, however, can definitely go from brutal death metal to a smooth petrucci-esque lead tone. rectos are much more versatile than a lot of people make them out to be.


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## Metal Ken (Sep 25, 2007)

eon_shift said:


> i guess the real question then is can a mesa dual or triple recto do brutal death metal or would the engl do it better and still be able to pull a john petrucci



Dude,do you know how many death metal albums have been recorded w/ Dual or Triple recs?


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## zimbloth (Sep 25, 2007)

*All I want to say more about my experience with the Powerball is this.... (Disclaimer: Just my opinion)*

I was in our rehearsal space with the amp, I fired it up, let it warm up, then started jamming on it. I was very impressed by some of the initial tones I was hearing. My bandmate Buddy and I were looking at each other like "we're content with our amps, but this is pretty cool!".

I was standing to the side of my cab when setting it up, so I wasn't getting a direct impact of the highs just yet. Everything sounded great. It sounded brutal, loud, in-your-face, articulate, tight punchy bass, etc. Then, my bandmate had to run. I stayed and played with the amp, getting the settings just right, etc. 

Within about 2 minutes, my elation started to turn sour, and a sensation overcame me: BOREDOM. It just very quickly stopped being fun to play, the tone was very generic and metallic, perfect for djenting but not really for interesting heavy tone. I also started to realize the solid-state like bass response was fun, but it came at the expense of the the feel of the amp. It has tight bass, but in return the mids and highs are ultra compressed and kind of thin sounding as well. 

I turned on my VHT, just to quickly compare. Within about 10 seconds of playing it, the joy and fun had returned, and I was just like "ahhhh, that's more like it". I whipped out my cell phone, buzzed Buddy who had just left, and I was like "dude, I know this is gonna sound crazy considering i was just raving about the amp like FIVE MINUTES AGO, but this amp kind of sucks". And he said "yeah, i was being polite but lets just say I'm more than happy to stick to my Mesa".

I guess the point of this is, and of course this is just our opinion, the amp has many excellent characteristics, it has good tone, but it's just a very bland and mechanical sounding amp. Certain amps are more fun to play because of the liquidity fluid feel, the VHT has that AND retains ultimate clarity/articulation. It's odd, the VHT's tone can sometimes sound "dry" (in other words, ultra clear/note definition), but the feel doesn't correspond with that. I believe an amp is an instrument, and a Mesa or VHT, etc... just is a more fun instrument to play through IMO.


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

[action=ShawnFjellstad] thinks, upon reading zimbloth's comments, that you should try to find a used VHT UL/CL or Framus Dragon, as both are incredible amps. [/action]


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## OzzyC (Sep 25, 2007)

ShawnFjellstad said:


> [action=ShawnFjellstad] thinks.[/action]


Lies, I tell you. LIES!


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

OzzyC said:


> Lies, I tell you. LIES!




you're just jealous of the love that stitch and i share.


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## loktide (Sep 25, 2007)

zimbloth said:


> The Powerball has a very scooped, processed, solid-state feel to it. You can crank the mids up but the amp still is not very mid-focused. It is articulate, clear, excellent attack and power.
> 
> The Mesa on the other hand, has much richer mids, more dynamic organic tone, with loads of crunch and bite but not as processed and articulate as the Powerball. Mesas need the Tube Screamers in front of it, eventhough you don't want to talk about that, it is the x-factor for the amp. The cleans on the Mesa are better as well.
> 
> ...




I agree with everything  

I AB'ed a Fireball with a Powerball last month and for some reason i liked the fireball way more although i expected things to be the other way around. The Fireball just sounded more raw and growly whereas i couldn't get that sound out of the powerball after messing with channel 3 & 4 and open/focused mids. The cleans on both are pretty much comparable and are well... clean, but that's it.
Yesterday i got a dual recto borrowed from a friend (which will replace my flextone head for the next months) and while it's definitely waay harder to dial in than the fireball/powerball, you can also get a tight and defined crunch with a TS on front of the modern channel in bold+diode mode. I can see why many people claim it to be farty and undefined, but they have obviously not tweaked it properly.
Nonetheless, I will most likely be getting a fireball since they are almost 1/3 of the dual recto price here in germany, used of course New, they're 1000 v/s 2300 !!!
The fireball is certainly not the most flexile amp ever made, but it has one of the best tech/prog-metal tones i've heard.


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## Nick (Sep 25, 2007)

fireball for the win!


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## LordOVchaoS (Sep 25, 2007)

Quick comparison for death metal tones...

Zyklon = Powerball ; Cannibal Corpse = Mesa

They both do death metal very well it just boils down to your personal taste.


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## Stitch (Sep 25, 2007)

ShawnFjellstad said:


> you're just jealous of the love that stitch and i share.


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## Nick (Sep 25, 2007)

LordOVchaoS said:


> Quick comparison for death metal tones...
> 
> Zyklon = Powerball ; Cannibal Corpse = Mesa
> 
> They both do death metal very well it just boils down to your personal taste.



zyklon are actually both live

i was practically on the stage when i saw them and samoth was playing a powerball and the lead guy (destructor?!?!) was playing a dual or triple rec.

it was brutal to say the least!!


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

I've owned two dual recs (two channel and three channel) and now have a Pball. I sold the dual for a reason. yes, the duals have more flexibility, but the tone 'i'm' going for is achieved on the pball. I've played two shows with it (at venues I've played the dual with) and both shows I've been bombarted with people praising my tone. Sadly, I never got that with the dual ; it was still an incredible sounding amp.

having owned both at the same time I concluded this: the pball cleans were much better. The pball's volume was more useable: meaning, when you turn a knob it gradually gets louder. on my mesa it went from nothing to BAM in the slightest turn of the volume. The mesa EQ is much more responsive, but I enjoy the pball tones (especially with my bloody murder pedal in front).

apples and oranges. Nick likes apples, I like oranges. Both are great fruits.


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## noodles (Sep 25, 2007)

Having played three Engls now (Fireball, Powerball, SE), I definitely think that the Powerball is the worst of the bunch, for all the reasons that Nick said. It is just too focused in the midrange. This, coupled with the very high damping factor, gives is a very processed sound.

This is very characteristic of Engls, although the Powerball is the worst implementation. The SE is far more organic, but that tight, focused midrange is still there. It is not necessarily a bad thing, just not my thing.


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

My post doesn't feel shit on


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

7StringofAblicK said:


> My post doesn't feel shit on



its just everyone's opinion, man.
obviously you're happy with your amp, it just so happens that the powerball isn't everyone's cup of tea.


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

No you're exactly right, dude.

By shit on I mean having a super mod write the exact OPPOSITE to what I did. Do I mind? Hell no . If we're both happy, that's all that matters. But his credibility is far higher than mine so someone will read both and what I wrote will be completley disregarded. I don't mind, seriously. Just the facts of life  Plus others agreed so I guess I'll just be quiet haha


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## Stitch (Sep 25, 2007)

You _are_ taller though. Just square up to him.


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

Nah, I enjoy 99.99% of the things Noodles has to write. 
I'm a 21 year old punk - I still have much to learn.


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## Benzesp (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm suprised more of you guys have not played a Blackmore. It's my favorite ENGL. Great mids, tight lows, just a very musical tone all togeather. Dont let the "Blackmore" name fool you. It's a great sounding amp and IMO kills a Recto.


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

I've really thought about checking one out. The shared EQ bugged me on my 5150, so that's quite a turn-off (though I've heard it's not that big of a deal on the blackmore).


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

i loved the blackmore that i tried out, but i really don't like the idea of a shared eq.


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## noodles (Sep 25, 2007)

7StringofAblicK said:


> No you're exactly right, dude.
> 
> By shit on I mean having a super mod write the exact OPPOSITE to what I did. Do I mind? Hell no . If we're both happy, that's all that matters. But his credibility is far higher than mine so someone will read both and what I wrote will be completley disregarded. I don't mind, seriously. Just the facts of life  Plus others agreed so I guess I'll just be quiet haha



Ryan's got a Powerball, and he's a mod. His clips sound fucking brutal, too, but I would hate to own his rig: Powerball through V30s. He makes it sound good for him, though, and that's all that really matters. Who knows, he may hate my rig if he ever played through. I've got friends who despise C90s.

Now you? Well, you're just wrong.


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## noodles (Sep 25, 2007)

Benzesp said:


> I'm suprised more of you guys have not played a Blackmore.



I can't find them around here. Every Engl I have ever played has been privately owned.


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

noodles said:


> Ryan's got a Powerball, and he's a mod. His clips sound fucking brutal, too, but I would hate to own his rig: Powerball through V30s. He makes it sound good for him, though, and that's all that really matters. Who knows, he may hate my rig if he ever played through. I've got friends who despise C90s.
> 
> Now you? Well, you're just wrong.





If I could just upload clips of mine to share. You'd hate me even more - my cab still has V30s in it . We are supposed to be doing some demo recordings soon and the Pball will be used exclusively. With that said, I  the roadster.


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## zimbloth (Sep 25, 2007)

Clips are about as useful and accurate as the Washington Times. Clips don't express how the amp feels to play, the responsiveness, etc. Also all the variables in the recording process/pickups/speakers/etc just make it a crapshoot. Really the only way to get an educated opinion is to spend time with the amp in person.

Clips are still fun tho, so go for it, but still


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## 7StringofAblicK (Sep 25, 2007)

+ 1 zim.


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## ShawnFjellstad (Sep 25, 2007)

zimbloth said:


> Clips are about as useful and accurate as the Washington Times. Clips don't express how the amp feels to play, the responsiveness, etc. Also all the variables in the recording process/pickups/speakers/etc just make it a crapshoot. Really the only way to get an educated opinion is to spend time with the amp in person.
> 
> Clips are still fun tho, so go for it, but still





the clips of the framus dragon on rock solid amps sound very little like my dragon.
playing an amp in person is the only sure way to know if you like it or not.


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## eaeolian (Sep 25, 2007)

noodles said:


> I can't find them around here. Every Engl I have ever played has been privately owned.



We need to take a morning off and go to Chuck's.

Preferably NOT on a Saturday, though.


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## Zepp88 (Sep 25, 2007)

eaeolian said:


> We need to take a morning off and go to Chuck's.
> 
> Preferably NOT on a Saturday, though.



How do you get to Chucks? 

Me and our drummer went to Classic Axe last weekend to check it out (nice place) and since we were on 29 we decided to drive to D.C. for the hell of it. 

We got there, couldn't find a place to park, then ended up in a slummy area and then somewhere way the fuck up in Maryland, so we hit 495 and drove home thinking "That trip was cool"


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## Krunch (Sep 25, 2007)

I usually take the Beltway to the top and just get off on the Wheton Exit (as best I can remember). It's pretty easy after that, straight, then veer left as the road splits.

I'm not a big fan of that store, though they did sell me my amp for (relative) dirt so I can't really talk.


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## eaeolian (Sep 25, 2007)

Zepp88 said:


> How do you get to Chucks?



Wheaton - a wonderful place!



Zepp88 said:


> Me and our drummer went to Classic Axe last weekend to check it out (nice place) and since we were on 29 we decided to drive to D.C. for the hell of it.



Dave took lessons at the old shop. I haven't been out there since he moved, but he's always got good stuff. 



Zepp88 said:


> We got there, couldn't find a place to park, then ended up in a slummy area and then somewhere way the fuck up in Maryland, so we hit 495 and drove home thinking "That trip was cool"



Heh. The only shop in DC worth visiting is The Guitar Shop, which also usually has some pretty nice stuff.


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## Zepp88 (Sep 25, 2007)

I can get to D.C. easily....avoiding interstates...but it would be nice if I knew my way around that place 

EDIT:

I was under the impression that it was in D.C.

Google maps says Silver Spring...which is funny...we ended up driving through Silver Spring....

Highway 29 will take you anywhere


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## TeutonicShreder (Jun 15, 2010)

Benzesp said:


> I'm suprised more of you guys have not played a Blackmore. It's my favorite ENGL. Great mids, tight lows, just a very musical tone all togeather. Dont let the "Blackmore" name fool you. It's a great sounding amp and IMO kills a Recto.



My question is can a Blackmore get a great Death Metal tone...preferably a Gothenburg death metal tone like old Soilwork, old In Flames, At the Gates, and Dark Tranquillity


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## zimbloth (Jun 15, 2010)

TeutonicShreder said:


> My question is can a Blackmore get a great Death Metal tone...preferably a Gothenburg death metal tone like old Soilwork, old In Flames, At the Gates, and Dark Tranquillity



It definitely _can_, but the Invader, Savage, Fireball 100, etc would be better options for that kind of thing IMO. The Blackmore can get super heavy, but it has more of a crunchy, open sound from it. More like a souped up Marshall. I'd strongly recommend the Fireball 100 or Invader for Swedish death metal stuff. 

I have a Blackmore at my store, as well as some of the others, and it definitely has plenty of gain and balls, but it's inherently more of a hard rock amp IMO. It doesn't have the same kind of natural compression and liquidy gain that the other models have. Then again, with a boost it could definitely hang.

BTW epic 3 year bump there


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 15, 2010)

Mesa Rectifier with boost > Powerball distortion.

Mesa Rectifier cleans > Powerball cleans.

It's just a much, much better amp in general. I put the two side by side once (Triple Rec vs Powerball) and compared them through the same cab. Even without the boost, the Mesa made the Powerball sound like a muddy lifeless mess with no balls or power.

It's just a shame they cost so much!


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## zimbloth (Jun 15, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Mesa Rectifier with boost > Powerball distortion.
> !



He was asking about the Blackmore bro. The Powerball discussion was back in 2007 if you check the dates


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