# As I Lay Dying are back with the classic lineup



## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

Tried to make a thread about this last night but unsure of what happened to it as I don't see it. They're back and seemed to have buried the hatchet with Tim. I enjoy the song and the solo is pretty great too. 



Your thoughts?


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## rifftrauma (Jun 8, 2018)

Metal Sucks did a small piece that I agree with on most points. Wish them the best, they won't be getting any of my $$$.

http://www.metalsucks.net/2018/06/0...will-read-about-as-i-lay-dying-on-metalsucks/


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## Dawn of the Shred (Jun 8, 2018)

Everyone in 2018: Metalcore is dead
As I Lay Dying: Hold my beer!!!


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

More like....
Everyone in 2018: We must boycott this band for perceived minor social infractions or unsubstantiated rumors of possible abuse.

Also Everyone in 2018: I mean, yeah, he tried to have his WIFE MURDERED, but c'mon, its AILD, amirite?

I haven't heard anything I needed in my collection since 94 hours, and the band he did right before the BS was waaaaaay better/more interesting, but either way I'm not supplying them with any stream counts or album purchases.


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## Albake21 (Jun 8, 2018)

First and foremost I should say that I a am not and nor was I ever a AILD fan. 

So I guess this my sound a bit screwed up to some people, but honestly, I could care less that they are making music again. Obviously it was screwed up about what happened between Tim and his wife at the time, but I guess I'm in the minority that music is music. Personal life should not play a role in making music. Is he a scumbag for doing such an awful thing? Absolutely, but it's up to the fans to choose if they want that to effect the band as a whole.

I guess my point is, art is art. The point being made by MetalSucks that if Cosby started touring again, it would be fucked up. Honestly.... I wouldn't care if Cosby toured again. Obviously he won't, but my point is I still enjoy Cosby's previous work for what it is. It's shitty about what he has done, but it doesn't effect my still enjoying the Cosby show as it's just a form of media.

Personally I find metalcore to be repulsive anyways, but hey I bet there is still a big fan base for it in 2018.


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## sakeido (Jun 8, 2018)

rifftrauma said:


> Metal Sucks did a small piece that I agree with on most points. Wish them the best, they won't be getting any of my $$$.
> 
> http://www.metalsucks.net/2018/06/0...will-read-about-as-i-lay-dying-on-metalsucks/



top comment is absolutely brilliant. "I can't wait for the next Varg Vikernes story!" I have not seen a site get destroyed so badly by their own comment section before. good god the people who write for MS are an utter disgrace to their profession and the metal genre. 

separate art and artist. new AILD tune is a banger. Tim's a douche but he served his time. oh well


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## Albake21 (Jun 8, 2018)

Don't get me wrong, the dude is an absolute piece of shit. They will definitely not get my support (not that I would anyways). But my point is, I have no problem with people _wanting_ to still support them. It's up to the fans. @sakeido said it pretty well.


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## wat (Jun 8, 2018)

Man I would imagine you would have to REALLY want to do the band again if you're willing to work with someone you know is such a crazy bastard.


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## Albake21 (Jun 8, 2018)

wat said:


> Man I would imagine you would have to REALLY want to do the band again if you're willing to work with someone you know is such a crazy bastard.


Yeah now THAT definitely surprises me the most. I don't get how anyone could still work with the dude after what happened.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 8, 2018)

sakeido said:


> separate art and artist



Nah.

Metalsucks can be a bunch of uptight assholes, but I agree with them here. Dude tried to ruin his family and get someone killed. Fuck him.



Albake21 said:


> Yeah now THAT definitely surprises me the most. I don't get how anyone could still work with the dude after what happened.



Seriously, Wovenwar and their side projects must have been a huge bust.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

wat said:


> Man I would imagine you would have to REALLY want to do the band again if you're willing to work with someone you know is such a crazy bastard.





Albake21 said:


> Yeah now THAT definitely surprises me the most. I don't get how anyone could still work with the dude after what happened.



$$$


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## Flemmigan (Jun 8, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> Yeah now THAT definitely surprises me the most. I don't get how anyone could still work with the dude after what happened.



All things are possible through Christ and reunion tour guarantees.


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## Mathemagician (Jun 8, 2018)

Not touching them. I don’t delegate artist from art. Fuck him. 

Sucks for the these guys but they’re likely using it as a cash in after he fucked thier careers, so I get it but no.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I guess I'm in the minority that music is music.



I totally agree with you on that. 



GunpointMetal said:


> the band he did right before the BS was waaaaaay better/more interesting,



I also agree with this. Pyrithion was some heavy shit.


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## Edika (Jun 8, 2018)

It sounds like typical AILD but Wovenwar was not that far away from that sound. I'm not sure if Tim wrote most of the songs or was one of the main song writers.

Concerning the whole Tim being released and just jumping back to his old life like more or less nothing happened, it's somewhat strange. I mean what he did would be a career killer for most and I don't feel he is that talented or that AILD are/were that good to warrant this kind of response. I mean yes their songs are catchy, melodic, well written and performed but they mostly sounded the same. In any case good for him, in a sense, that the fact that he went to jail didn't throw him in the gutter as it has done for most ex-cons, even though his circumstances are much different than most convicts.

And fans are just that. Some people will justify whatever heinous crimes their favorite star will do. I'm more surprised with the rest of the members for going back after the stance they took separating themselves from Tim and really hammering on him with their statements. To me it seems that when Tim was arrested the other members saw how bad the situation was for him and they thought that the only way to save their careers was to distance themselves as quickly and as far as possible. They obviously didn't expect him coming out of jail and everyone else waiting to basically go down on him. Tim could easily have found replacement members and still be AILD. But getting the original members back they gave the world two things, the nostalgia factor and that he is forgiven. Because if the people that were his friends and bandmates, that rejected him, take him back it makes the comeback even more heartwarming and his remorse seem more sincere. And the rest get to have that taste of success they didn't manage to achieve with Wovenwar and make a living again.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> Not touching them. I don’t delegate artist from art. Fuck him.
> 
> Sucks for the these guys but they’re likely using it as a cash in after he fucked thier careers, so I get it but no.



I can see your point and why you would feel that way, but if I like the music it won't matter to me. I never said I would buy the music, but at the same time the other guys in the band need financial support from old fans regardless of what Tim did. They need jobs and I believe they shouldn't suffer from what Lambesis has done.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 8, 2018)

I can separate the art from the person, but in this case I don't really care. This is just modern high production metalcore, I haven't honestly listened or played anything in the metalcore in years short of the occasional Rose of Sharyn chorus when I jam with my roommate on his drumkit.

There's two sides of the fence and there's nothing wrong with it, people who can look past it and enjoy the music are free to do so and people who can't get over Tim's case won't support him. I'd wager if the background of every musician we like was completely exposed there wouldn't be much music for people to listen to, at least those who don't support musicians who have any negative history.


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## Albake21 (Jun 8, 2018)

BusinessMan said:


> I can see your point and why you would feel that way, but if I like the music it won't matter to me. I never said I would buy the music, but at the same time the other guys in the band need financial support from old fans regardless of what Tim did. They need jobs and I believe they shouldn't suffer from what Lambesis has done.


My thoughts exactly.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

And they all had jobs. Maybe not as financially lucrative as going on the reunion tour, but it just kinda seems like a pussified money grab from those guys considering how things went down after his "screw up".


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## Mathemagician (Jun 8, 2018)

Cool then lambesis take a massive pay cut and get a lower % than the band. 

Attempted murder via hitman. 

No go for me dawg. 

I’m not judging others for their decisions just voting with my dollar. And that guy isn’t seeing a cent. And I was a huge fan of that damn band. Anyone that sees my regular posts on here knows I love metalcore. 

Other guys can write drop C riffs too. And they get my cash for you know, not trying to commit murder or whatever.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 8, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I'd wager if the background of every musician we like was completely exposed there wouldn't be much music for people to listen to, at least those who don't support musicians who have any negative history.



I mean you have mistakes... and then there's trying to hire someone to murder your wife.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

Right, its not like he stole a car, or got drunk and said some stupid stuff. He literally tried to have someone killed.


HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean you have mistakes... and then there's trying to hire someone to murder your wife.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 8, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> Right, its not like he stole a car, or got drunk and said some stupid stuff. He literally tried to have someone killed.



And you have no idea how much it pisses me off when people try to downplay that.


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## groverj3 (Jun 8, 2018)

They were one of the few metalcore bands I thought was pretty listenable. The song is alright. People are acting like they were the best band in the world or something, which is ridiculous. Their whole pseudo christian band thing always kind of irked me. It seemed like they were just using it as a way to sell albums to people who otherwise wouldn't buy a metal album (I knew plenty of people in high school who bought their first album or two because they felt it was "ok to like them because they're christians"  ).

This strikes me as a calculated move because they weren't drawing enough fans to their other projects.

He only failed at having with wife killed due to his own incompetence. Any credibility the other members had by distancing themselves from him is gone now. Will not spend money on anything they put out, not that I was likely to anyway.


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## Edika (Jun 8, 2018)

It's difficult for me to believe the roid rage story as, by his own indirect admission, the divorce would have crippled him financially and killing her would have just made the problem go away for cheap. That is cold calculated planning to me. He just was too stupid to do it competently.


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## groverj3 (Jun 8, 2018)

Expect a press release from Tim before their reunion tour about how "he's come back to Christ" or whatever.

Watch the fans eat it up.


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## Albake21 (Jun 8, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> Expect a press release from Tim before their reunion tour about how "he's come back to Christ" or whatever.


And this is why I never liked this band...


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## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> And they get my cash for you know, not trying to commit murder or whatever.



You pay taxes to the US government and they commit murder. Maybe stop paying taxes?!  I jest but i see your point. I agree with you.


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## budda (Jun 8, 2018)

Life tip: dont support shitty people. Dont be a shitty person.


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 8, 2018)

tl;dr - criminals should just be put to death regardless of crime because no second chance must ever be given and the penal system is a waste of time and money.

If would be quite refreshing to see less extreme positions in either direction, to be completely honest. No, it was most definitely not a "minor thing" just because the hit failed, so dismissing the gravity of his act is unwarranted, and it doesn't make sense to not give a chance to criminals who serve their times and show regret (giving the benefit of the doubt here) to try to regain a place in society (not that doubting one's true intentions isn't valid, mind you).


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 8, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean you have mistakes... and then there's trying to hire someone to murder your wife.



Not my point, I mean other musicians have been outed for less and I'm wagering that if that was out in the open it wouldn't take someone attempting murder to lose their fanbase.

Clearly plotting a murder on your SO is completely fucking stupid


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> tl;dr - criminals should just be put to death regardless of crime because no second chance must ever be given and the penal system is a waste of time and money.
> 
> If would be quite refreshing to see less extreme positions in either direction, to be completely honest. No, it was most definitely not a "minor thing" just because the hit failed, so dismissing the gravity of his act is unwarranted, and it doesn't make sense to not give a chance to criminals who serve their times and show regret (giving the benefit of the doubt here) to try to regain a place in society (not that doubting one's true intentions isn't valid, mind you).


Sure, he's getting a second chance by not being in prison forever. He certainly doesn't deserve any adoration or music community support either, though. If he was a lawyer or a doctor or something he'd be having a much, much harder time trying to "get back into it", but since so many music fans (metalheads especially, lately) seem to think it somehow makes them "woke" to "separate the art from the artist" he's going to cash in, probably not in a small way.


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## sakeido (Jun 8, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> Sure, he's getting a second chance by not being in prison forever. He certainly doesn't deserve any adoration or music community support either, though. If he was a lawyer or a doctor or something he'd be having a much, much harder time trying to "get back into it", but since so many music fans (metalheads especially, lately) seem to think it somehow makes them "woke" to "separate the art from the artist" he's going to cash in, probably not in a small way.



lol the quintessential American attitude on crime here. Simply getting out of jail is NOT a second chance. Most Americans that get out of jail end up going right back... and we aren't talking a slight majority either (75% within 5 years) because the stigma follows them forever and your country would rather just let them slowly rot and destroy whole communities (south Chicago) or even cities (Baltimore, anyone?) while they are at it.

It is actually "woke" (fuck off with that) to forgive people and let them try again... that's what Norway does, and only 20% of their prisoners end up going back to jail. And sure he doesn't automatically deserve any adoration or support, but he can earn it.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

sakeido said:


> the stigma follows them forever


He tried to have someone murdered, people just forgive and forget on that one often?


sakeido said:


> And sure he doesn't automatically deserve any adoration or support, but he can earn it.


which he's done nothing to "earn it" besides not being in prison anymore....

I didn't say anything about it not being "woke" (I think we equally hate this term) about forgiveness and moving on, just the whole "I'll support shitty people financially because I like the way the art." to me, is fucking stupid and juvenile.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 8, 2018)

lol, I knew the moment I saw this thread this morning that if I checked back in an hour it'd be a political shitshow.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

rifftrauma said:


> Metal Sucks did a small piece that I agree with on most points. Wish them the best, they won't be getting any of my $$$.
> 
> http://www.metalsucks.net/2018/06/0...will-read-about-as-i-lay-dying-on-metalsucks/



I can't ever agree with metal sucks. I mean they post about Varg, Ozzy, and other who actually murdered people and attempted to kill people themselves all the time and then they go and say they can't "write" about Lambesis because he attempted to have someone killed and got caught without the job succedding? That seems kind of contradictory (for lack of a better word) or double standard. And then music fans go n praising these artists for attempting to murder/mudering?


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## sakeido (Jun 8, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> He tried to have someone murdered, people just forgive and forget on that one often?


The cops did such a good job the case was open and shut, no one was actually killed, he went to jail for 2.5 years, not sure if you've ever been in one before? Read a book by a guy who'd been inside? Maybe even watched a prison documentary (without jerking off at the "justice" on screen)? It's a soul destroying waste of life that he will remember forever. He did his time, now let him do his best to pick up the pieces...



> which he's done nothing to "earn it" besides not being in prison anymore....


except y'know release the song in the OP, which crushes


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 8, 2018)

Ok (thumbs up emoji)


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## BenjaminW (Jun 8, 2018)

I don't care for metalcore but I think this track kicks ass on a whole new level.


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## Smoked Porter (Jun 8, 2018)

I listened to the new song a couple times, liked it, and feel a little dirty now. Not sure if I would pay money to see them live again or not after what Tim did.

That said, I don't really think that what Metalsucks is doing here comparing Lambesis to Winestein and Cosby holds up. Cosby and Winestein affected far more people with their actions. Not interested in a debate about whether murder is worse than rape and more egregious examples of sexual assault, and obviously what Lambesis did is despicable, before anybody gets any impression that I'm defending him or minimizing the impact of his actions. I'm also skeptical of the sincerity of his remorse.


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 8, 2018)

The song's pretty great, in my opinion.

As for what Tim did, obviously it's despicable, but he served his time, and apparently made a good enough impression that he got released early on parole and has been allowed back into civilised society. MetalSucks' article assumes that there is no such thing as reformation, and uses two criminal celebrities as an example, but they're a false equivalence. Weinstein and Cosby haven't served any time yet, and their crimes are on a whole other level. They used their power and status to get away with serial rape over the course of 30 years (or more). Tim did some extremely stupid and downright abhorrent one-time act and appears (at least to me, and evidently the parole board) to have remorse over it. His punishment lives on after release as he will likely never see his kids again, whether his ex-wife is in the picture or not. 

Again, I will never support his actions of that time, but as soon as we start brushing off people who have repaid their debt to society, we remove any purpose of releasing them at all, and at that point, there isn't much use of having prisons at all. Prison is for rehabilitation, not retribution. Although, hard to argue for that point when there's a prison-for-profit system in place in the US, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Here's what it boils down to in my opinion: Like the music? Support the band. Don't like the music? Do the same thing you do with every other artist you don't like: nothing.


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## rifftrauma (Jun 8, 2018)

BusinessMan said:


> I can't ever agree with metal sucks. I mean they post about Varg, Ozzy, and other who actually murdered people and attempted to kill people themselves all the time and then they go and say they can't "write" about Lambesis because he attempted to have someone killed and got caught without the job succedding? That seems kind of contradictory (for lack of a better word) or double standard. And then music fans go n praising these artists for attempting to murder/mudering?



I guess I should have clarified that I don't normally tread into Metal Sucks, have no idea who the fuck Varg is, or what Ozzy did, and generally don't give a shit about the website or the content on it. I check it every once in a while to see if anything I wasn't tracking on is being released. I don't have the back story on the hypocrisy against Tim vs other artists who have done similar acts. I think are a lot of decent opinions on either side of the argument for whether you choose to support the band or not. Tim's done his time, rehabilitation is the goal, new music for the fan base etc. The band exists to make music, which people seem to still like, and to make money. Again, good for them, I haven't really cared about them personally or professionally for a long time. I'm not going to support their new content for a variety of reasons. I'm also not going to try to push those reasons onto others.

Edit: Maybe I should move on over to "Unpopular Opinions" while I'm at it.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

rifftrauma said:


> I guess I should have clarified that I don't normally tread into Metal Sucks, have no idea who the fuck Varg is, or what Ozzy did, and generally don't give a shit about the website or the content on it. I check it every once in a while to see if anything I wasn't tracking on is being released. I don't have the back story on the hypocrisy against Tim vs other artists who have done similar acts. I think are a lot of decent opinions on either side of the argument for whether you choose to support the band or not. Tim's done his time, rehabilitation is the goal, new music for the fan base etc. The band exists to make music, which people seem to still like, and to make money. Again, good for them, I haven't really cared about them personally or professionally for a long time. I'm not going to support their new content for a variety of reasons. I'm also not going to try to push those reasons onto others.
> 
> Edit: Maybe I should move on over to "Unpopular Opinions" while I'm at it.



Fair enough. I also only check metalsucks for new stuff I may have missed


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## bostjan (Jun 8, 2018)

Sigh.

So a Death Metal band is accused of gang raping a woman, and her story given is clearly inconsistent from the start, and people are super quick to boycott them. It turns out they are held in jail awaiting trial much longer than US law allows, and then released because the prosecutor has no credible witness against them and several credible witnesses show up with an alibi for them. Still, their career is in ruins as a result, because they might have done something awful.

On the other hand, this Christian Metalcore band's singer hires a "hitman" (actually a cop) to murder his wife and the mother of his children, because he doesn't want to pay child support, then he's convicted by a preponderance of evidence, and does 2 1/2 years of a six year sentence in prison, during which he admits he and the other members of his band are actually atheists posing as Christians to sell records, the he gets out, "comes back to Jesus," releases a single, and everyone has to drop what they are doing and listen to it. Oh, and he was addicted to illegal steroids, and tried to sue the jail for not giving him special drugs to keep him from suffering from withdrawl (but the case was dropped), right?

You guys are free to listen to whatever you want to listen to, but, I just feel strongly compelled to say that it's far from over-reaction to say that maybe there are too many other bands far more deserving of one's attention.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 8, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Sigh.
> 
> So a Death Metal band is accused of gang raping a woman, and her story given is clearly inconsistent from the start, and people are super quick to boycott them. It turns out they are held in jail awaiting trial much longer than US law allows, and then released because the prosecutor has no credible witness against them and several credible witnesses show up with an alibi for them. Still, their career is in ruins as a result, because they might have done something awful.



Ya that whole decapitated case was a fart in the wind from the beginning. Also the accuser lied to the police before. While it did tarnish their reputations, I wouldn't say it ruined their careers as they're doing a bunch of European stuff now. And them waiting in jail for so long was garbo


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 8, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Sigh.
> 
> So a Death Metal band is accused of gang raping a woman, and her story given is clearly inconsistent from the start, and people are super quick to boycott them. It turns out they are held in jail awaiting trial much longer than US law allows, and then released because the prosecutor has no credible witness against them and several credible witnesses show up with an alibi for them. Still, their career is in ruins as a result, because they might have done something awful.
> 
> ...




And you would be correct. By all means go listen to those other bands, but I don't think that some of the other members here are in a place to tell others who do want to keep listening how to vote with their wallets. If it makes me as despicable as Tim just because I want to hear good music and leave his personal life where it is, that's my business.


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## groverj3 (Jun 8, 2018)

You could make this political, but it's not even necessary to explain why I want nothing to do with this band.

Not liking shitbags that want to kill people over not wanting to pay child support is a good reason. Simple as that. You don't even have to get into whether or not you feel he's "paid his debt to society."


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jun 8, 2018)

Fuck Tim, he should still be in jail.


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## Mprinsje (Jun 8, 2018)

Never been a big AILD fan, but i do love the 2007 metalcore sound they're bringing on this song.


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Jun 8, 2018)

I was wondering what happened to the original post too... but anyway, my mind is kinda blown that they’re making a comeback. I was never really a crazy huge fan of AILD before, but I owned a few of their CD’s and their songs would cycle through my playlists fairly commonly. So yeah, probably in my top 20 bands at least. 

I saw a news report just a day or two about Tim after his arrest, felt like it was a bummer, I thought for sure the band was done. Tim eventually was released and I chalked it up to a thing of the past and thought that dude will probably just get a daytime job somewhere and live out his days. Totally did not expect to see this though. Like I said, mind blown!

I’ve done some messed up things in my younger days too, maybe not as bad as conspiracy for murder but still, I’ve found forgiveness. I was hoping something like this would happen and honestly am thrilled that it has. I may not drive across the country to go see a show but sure I’ll buy their CD when it comes out. 

Just... wow. What a testament to forgiveness and friendship.


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## Vyn (Jun 8, 2018)

sakeido said:


> lol the quintessential American attitude on crime here. Simply getting out of jail is NOT a second chance. Most Americans that get out of jail end up going right back... and we aren't talking a slight majority either (75% within 5 years) because the stigma follows them forever and your country would rather just let them slowly rot and destroy whole communities (south Chicago) or even cities (Baltimore, anyone?) while they are at it.
> 
> It is actually "woke" (fuck off with that) to forgive people and let them try again... that's what Norway does, and only 20% of their prisoners end up going back to jail. And sure he doesn't automatically deserve any adoration or support, but he can earn it.



So much this. The whole point of having a "Corrections Facility" in theory is to reform people so they can integrate back into society, get a job, pay taxes and contribute which is actually cheaper than having them in prison. I don't know what the numbers are in the States but in Australia it's anywhere from $75000AUD-$150000AUD a year PER INMATE to keep them in jail. 

Definitely keep those that truly are a danger to society with no hope of reform locked up but if you're applying that attitude to inmates who actually can be reformed then your own taxes are paying for them to sit in prison and do fuck all for the rest of their lives.


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## groverj3 (Jun 8, 2018)

I don't think most are arguing that the guy should never be given a chance at making a life again. It's also skewed by the fact that there are people in prison for far less serious offenses in the US for a far greater length of time and it ruins them forever.

My argument is that now that he's out, while I certainly hope he can redeem himself, that doesn't mean we have to like the guy or give him any money.

Maybe I have an ignorant American's view of the criminal justice system, but doing time alone doesn't mean that someone's been rehabilitated or actually is reformed in any way. The prison system here is awful and usually makes people worse than when they went in just because of having to survive it, and rehabilitation isn't really a priority of the system. I get the "he's out now, and therefore his crimes are in the past" mentality, but the fact is that he's done nothing to show he's changed in any way.


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## Ralyks (Jun 8, 2018)

As someone who never got into AILD, this is actually a good song.

Unfortunately, for me, this is like a Chris Benoit situation all over again.


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## chipchappy (Jun 8, 2018)

Vyn said:


> So much this. The whole point of having a "Corrections Facility" in theory is to reform people so they can integrate back into society, get a job, pay taxes and contribute which is actually cheaper than having them in prison. I don't know what the numbers are in the States but in Australia it's anywhere from $75000AUD-$150000AUD a year PER INMATE to keep them in jail.
> 
> Definitely keep those that truly are a danger to society with no hope of reform locked up but if you're applying that attitude to inmates who actually can be reformed then your own taxes are paying for them to sit in prison and do fuck all for the rest of their lives.



Totally agree. But on the topic at hand - if the dude "gets a job" that largely relies on fan support and doesn't get a return because people don't feel right supporting what he did, too fucking bad. He can get a job doing whatever else he wants. No one said he had to keep making music.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 8, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> I get the "he's out now, and therefore his crimes are in the past" mentality, *but the fact is that he's done nothing to show he's changed in any way*.



The only thing that he *can *do to show that he's changed is *not *try to kill his wife. So far, he seems to be doing alright.
--
I don't get this whole thing. It seems to me like people think he should either still be in prison, or that it's fine that he's out, but he shouldn't be allowed to make music anymore apparently. Or that people listening to his music are somehow supportive of wife murder.

Just because I buy Periphery's music doesn't mean I support everything Misha does and thinks. It means I think Misha writes some sick riffs and I would like him to continue to do so.

Whatever happened to 'If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all'? It's fine if you think that you shouldn't buy his music because you feel it would not be ethical to do so. Admirable, even- someone that _actually_ lives by their morals and walks the walk these days is pretty rare. But standing on a soapbox to virtue signal about how shitty it is that this guy tried to have his wife whacked, and that other people should follow your example and do as you do is _just tiring_. No one cares. The people that were going to support Tim Lambesis will continue to support Tim Labesis anyway. Attempted murder didn't sway them and neither will you.


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## chipchappy (Jun 8, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Whatever happened to 'If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all'?



Because this is a forum and thats how those work? haha

Yeah he's doing a fantastic job not killing his ex wife or other people's wives or w/e  good job so far!

You don't have to be all-or-nothing with bands either, i agree... but, if a musician made a choice to try and murder someone, its within anyones right to say "yknow what, it feels weird listening to this persons music, im not gonna do it anymore."

Lastly, no it's not tiring, or soapboxing, its a goddamn moral standpoint and a correct one i'll add. If i meet an AILD fan (god forbid) i dont give a rats ass if i "sway" them... ill tell them that they can do whatever they want but i wont support that dude or that band


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## wat (Jun 8, 2018)

murder supporters itt


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 8, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> You don't have to be all-or-nothing with bands either, i agree... but, if a musician made a choice to try and murder someone, its within anyones right to say "yknow what, it feels weird listening to this persons music, im not gonna do it anymore."
> 
> Lastly, no it's not tiring, or soapboxing, its a goddamn moral standpoint and a correct one i'll add. If i meet an AILD fan (god forbid) i dont give a rats ass if i "sway" them... ill tell them that they can do whatever they want but i wont support that dude or that band



Absolutely, you are your own person and 100% entitled your own thoughts and opinions. I can totally see that perspective and I understand it completely.

But yes, it is tiring. And yes, stuff like this:


wat said:


> murder supporters itt



is soapboxing. I'm not arguing over morals, to each their own; and I'm even inclined to agree with you on this one. But why do you *need* to tell them?
Where is this compulsive urge to shit over someone's enjoyment coming from? Zealotry?

If asked, sure. "Bro check the new AILD record it slays" ... "Nah man I'm good, I can't get over the hitman thing. Just feels dirty hearing that guy sing." is totally chill.
But if no one is seeking your opinion it feels like you're just trying to push your own point of view. If I mention in passing that I'm into AILD and you interject with "Wont ever support that dude or that band. But you can do whatever you want tho," which is exactly what you described, I'm probably not going to want to talk to you about music or anything remotely controversial again. Context matters. And if you aren't trying to 'sway' anybody, and you aren't virtue signaling, then why do you even need to share that stance at all?


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## chipchappy (Jun 8, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> If asked, sure. "Bro check the new AILD record it slays" ... "Nah man I'm good, I can't get over the hitman thing. Just feels dirty hearing that guy sing." is totally chill.
> But if no one is seeking your opinion it feels like you're just trying to push your own point of view. If I mention in passing that I'm into AILD and you interject with "Wont ever support that dude or that band. But you can do whatever you want tho," which is exactly what you described, I'm probably not going to want to talk to you about music or anything remotely controversial again. Context matters.



Well, I mean - in person, if someone i was talking to mentioned it, the first scenario is probably how i'd react. But its the same sentiment. I agree with you that tone matters, and I think we're on the same page on that.

All I'm saying is we're in a forum dude. Opinions are often potently worded to get a message across, and thats kinda what people do on places like these, intentional or not.


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## wat (Jun 8, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Absolutely, you are your own person and 100% entitled your own thoughts and opinions. I can totally see that perspective and I understand it completely.
> 
> But yes, it is tiring. And yes, stuff like this:
> 
> ...



^murder apologist detected
its a joke


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 8, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> Well, I mean - in person, if someone i was talking to mentioned it, the first scenario is probably how i'd react. But its the same sentiment. I agree with you that tone matters, and I think we're on the same page on that.
> 
> All I'm saying is we're in a forum dude, and thats kinda what people do here



Nah I get it.
It's just grating seeing the same thing from so many people, so many times.



wat said:


> ^murder apologist detected
> its a joke



The sad thing is that I couldn't tell until you posted that.


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## Soya (Jun 8, 2018)




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## Hollowway (Jun 9, 2018)

Tim: Hey guys, remember how we used to play in an obscure metal band, just barely scraping by financially? And remember how I fucked all of you over by trying to kill my wife, so you all had to find some other job for the last 2.5 years? Well, I’m out of prison now, and while you guys can really do whatever job you want, I am an ex-con, and can’t get a lot of jobs, so what say we reform the band, go back to just barely scraping by financially, but now with the added bonus that we’ll be a pariah in the metal community, and people will spend more time talking about me than really listen to anything artistic any of you want to do!
Band: So, you want us to stop the stuff we’re currently doing, and support you, cuz you can’t really do anything else now, and despite the fact that you fucked us and our families over with your selfish, cowardly plan to kill your own wife?
Tim: Yes. And for Jesus.
Band: OK, sure. I mean, we’ll completely redo all of our lives again, so you can have a second chance. Because selfish narcissism and lack of empathy are 2 things that surely get corrected in a 2.5 year stint in prison.
Tim: Then it’s decided!
Band: Quick question - if this doesn’t work out, and we don’t suddenly make it huge, we’ll be considered chumps for hanging out with the guy that fucked us all over. We’ll have the stink of your attempted murder on all of us, because we’ll seem complicit with the idea by once again working with you. What will be the plan for us then?
Tim: Guys, I literally tried to kill my own wife, and leave my kid without a mother, because I didn’t want to be inconvenienced by the normal life problems that we all have. I think I’ve pretty well proven I’m only in this for myself. What gives you the impression I’d even give a fuck what happens with any of you if this doesn’t work out? 
Band: Ummm....
Tim: Oh, I almost forgot - praise be to Jesus.


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## feraledge (Jun 9, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Tim: Hey guys, remember how we used to play in an obscure metal band, just barely scraping by financially? And remember how I fucked all of you over by trying to kill my wife, so you all had to find some other job for the last 2.5 years? Well, I’m out of prison now, and while you guys can really do whatever job you want, I am an ex-con, and can’t get a lot of jobs, so what say we reform the band, go back to just barely scraping by financially, but now with the added bonus that we’ll be a pariah in the metal community, and people will spend more time talking about me than really listen to anything artistic any of you want to do!
> Band: So, you want us to stop the stuff we’re currently doing, and support you, cuz you can’t really do anything else now, and despite the fact that you fucked us and our families over with your selfish, cowardly plan to kill your own wife?
> Tim: Yes. And for Jesus.
> Band: OK, sure. I mean, we’ll completely redo all of our lives again, so you can have a second chance. Because selfish narcissism and lack of empathy are 2 things that surely get corrected in a 2.5 year stint in prison.
> ...


Nailed it.


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## feraledge (Jun 9, 2018)

To the "he did his time" folks, I'm against the prison system and generally for not eternally judging people for whatever might amount to a horrible outcome of a bad interaction, as many prisoners are. This is not one of those cases. Dude is a sociopath and he's used excuses and religion to try to cover for just being a shitbag. It's not like he was all fucked up and flipped out, said he would kill his wife, he tried to hire someone to kill her. Not exactly a spur of the moment thing. It's not like the other scenario is okay by any stretch, but you can say things in anger and then sleep it off. You can do things in anger and regret them. Both of those things would be more genuine than thinking 2.5 years for getting caught changes anything about who this dude is.
I mean, he's got a life to live now, he's still a shitbag, but getting the band back together is "you should forgive me" which isn't the same as "I've changed and I'm not going back to the same patterns that brought out the worst in me." He's practically going back to the scene of the crime.
The whole religion thing creeps me out. It's dudes like this that need an easy redemption and then are willing to use it repeatedly. I'm sure that if it works for him this time (which it seemingly has enough), he'll just do it next time.
Either way, the band sucks, always has and always will. I couldn't give two shits about them really, but if you want to point out how people have made horrible decisions and changed, been stuck in shit situations, or especially those that have been caught for things that weren't bad at all, this isn't the case to try to hang that hat on.
All things being equal, all situations aren't equal.
The only thing this dude is genuine about is that he genuinely regrets being caught.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 9, 2018)

so.... who's going to the SOMA show? we can carpool


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 9, 2018)

So why were the original few posts deleted? Was it because they were a few of the ONLY positive messages regarding this topic?


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## Hollowway (Jun 9, 2018)

Tim: Hey guys, remember how we used to play in an obscure metal band, just barely scraping by financially? And remember how I fucked all of you over by trying to kill my wife, so you all had to find some other job for the last 2.5 years? Well, I’m out of prison now, and while you guys can really do whatever job you want, I am an ex-con, and can’t get a lot of jobs, so what say we reform the band, go back to just barely scraping by financially, but now with the added bonus that we’ll be a pariah in the metal community, and people will spend more time talking about me than really listen to anything artistic any of you want to do!
Band: So, you want us to stop the stuff we’re currently doing, and support you, cuz you can’t really do anything else now, and despite the fact that you fucked us and our families over with your selfish, cowardly plan to kill your own wife?
Tim: Yes. And for Jesus.
Band: OK, sure. I mean, we’ll completely redo all of our lives again, so you can have a second chance. Because selfish narcissism and lack of empathy are 2 things that surely get corrected in a 2.5 year stint in prison.
Tim: Then it’s decided!
Band: Quick question - if this doesn’t work out, and we don’t suddenly make it huge, we’ll be considered chumps for hanging out with the guy that fucked us all over. We’ll have the stink of your attempted murder on all of us, because we’ll seem complicit with the idea by once again working with you. What will be the plan for us then?
Tim: Guys, I literally tried to kill my own wife, and leave my kid without a mother, because I didn’t want to be inconvenienced by the normal life problems that we all have. I think I’ve pretty well proven I’m only in this for myself. What gives you the impression I’d even give a fuck what happens with any of you if this doesn’t work out? 
Band: Ummm....
Tim: Oh, I almost forgot - praise be to Jesus.


PunkBillCarson said:


> So why were the original few posts deleted? Was it because they were a few of the ONLY positive messages regarding this topic?



SSO glitched last night, and a bunch of posts were lost. It was site-wide, and not mod driven, or limited to any particular posts/threads.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 9, 2018)

Ah okay. I didn't know what was going on. Anyways, back to the Tim bashing... For you guys, that is, I'm going to buy the album when it comes out.


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## feraledge (Jun 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Ah okay. I didn't know what was going on. Anyways, back to the Tim bashing... For you guys, that is, I'm going to buy the album when it comes out.


Tim will appreciate the support, the price for a successful hit is going to be twice as much now.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 9, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Tim will appreciate the support, the price for a successful hit is going to be twice as much now.




Ah well you know... I'm all about second chances and all of that. I know, I know, I'm a shitty person along with him.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Ah well you know... I'm all about second chances and all of that. I know, I know, I'm a shitty person along with him.


dang man, that's so PUNK


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> dang man, that's so PUNK




Is it? Wasn't paying attention if my posts were living up to my name. Anyways, happy bashing!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> So why were the original few posts deleted? Was it because they were a few of the ONLY positive messages regarding this topic?



The server is going all stupid and deleted a bunch of stuff posted last night. Some has been recovered, but not all of it. It seems to be stuff posted between 00:00 and 03:00 central time. I know I had at least three or four posts vanish. If you check your post history and it errors out, you probably lost a few.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 9, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The server is going all stupid and deleted a bunch of stuff posted last night. Some has been recovered, but not all of it. It seems to be stuff posted between 00:00 and 03:00 central time. I know I had at least three or four posts vanish. If you check your post history and it errors out, you probably lost a few.




Ah okay that makes sense then, because that's about the time that I posted. I hope that didn't come off as too snarky, and if it did, I apologize.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Ah okay. I didn't know what was going on. Anyways, back to the Tim bashing... For you guys, that is, I'm going to buy the album when it comes out.



I’ll buy if it’s good. If not just to piss of the morally upstanding people


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Jun 9, 2018)

For what it’s worth think of all the rap artists who are glorified by their fans because of or despite criminal activity... some of which has been pretty violent.


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## Zalbu (Jun 9, 2018)

Here's a wild thought: Don't support, financially or otherwise, people who hire hitmen to kill their wife


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Ah okay that makes sense then, because that's about the time that I posted. I hope that didn't come off as too snarky, and if it did, I apologize.



No apologies needed. 

A few folks had asked also.


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## Edika (Jun 9, 2018)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> For what it’s worth think of all the rap artists who are glorified by their fans because of or despite criminal activity... some of which has been pretty violent.



I don't know if this is supposed to be a counter argument in Tim's favor but it's not. I'm thinking about it and still conclude that those rap fan reasoning and support is flawed and Tim's actions are deplorable.

Truth be told I do hope he is sincere about his remorse and apology. I don't buy it yet but I'm not that negative towards it. Nobody's going to stop people that want to hear and buy new music from him and whatever form the AILD new album will be. I just disagree it's something not to be discussed about and that people should not feel strongly about it. 

Too bad though because I really enjoyed the music and humor of the Austrian Death Machine Double brutal record. I just can't bring myself to listen to it anymore.


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## Demiurge (Jun 9, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> _dialog that probably happened_



Of course, there's the saying, that there's no so such thing as bad press. In an over-saturated market, where you're fighting for crumbs of exposure against all the other _Verbs the Noun_, _Pluralses_, and _Names Are a Phrase, _a cynic may argue that an aura of scandal is better than obscurity.

I have it on good authority that Varg gets a nickel every time he is mentioned in a "can you separate the art from the artist" discussion on the internet and he is living comfortably.


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## budda (Jun 9, 2018)

"He did his time"

He did 2.5 years of a 6 year sentence, less than half of his time.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 9, 2018)

Don’t you bums understand that Jesus has already paid for Tim Labesis’ sins?


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## Hollowway (Jun 9, 2018)

Demiurge said:


> Of course, there's the saying, that there's no so such thing as bad press. In an over-saturated market, where you're fighting for crumbs of exposure against all the other _Verbs the Noun_, _Pluralses_, and _Names Are a Phrase, _a cynic may argue that an aura of scandal is better than obscurity.
> 
> I have it on good authority that Varg gets a nickel every time he is mentioned in a "can you separate the art from the artist" discussion on the internet and he is living comfortably.



Irrespective of how the fans respond, I’m just shocked the band mates are down to reform. If one of my friends fucked me over like that, I’d be too pissed to rejoin. I mean, I get that the money is attractive, but these guys were never Metallica. How much were they really pulling down? For me, I’d be like “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” But I know others will have their own outlook.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 9, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Irrespective of how the fans respond, I’m just shocked the band mates are down to reform. If one of my friends fucked me over like that, I’d be too pissed to rejoin. I mean, I get that the money is attractive, but these guys were never Metallica. How much were they really pulling down? For me, I’d be like “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” But I know others will have their own outlook.




Or it could be entirely speculation that it's about money? There's a possibility. Perhaps the money doesn't factor into it. It could be as simple as they've talked it out, they were friends for a long time, and friendship and love can blind you. I know that emotions don't really factor in on this when everyone is bringing the cold clinical approach here but you'd be surprised what people feel, how they feel, and how they handle situations. You said it yourself, they're not Metallica, so maybe money isn't the factor here. It's almost as if money isn't the only possible reason.


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## jwade (Jun 9, 2018)

It blows my mind that the other band members were so vocal in their support of Tim’s wife, and how she was family and bla bla bla...

But suddenly, they’re reuniting with this literal fraud of a human being? Like.. “hey I know he tried to kill her, and we said we stood by her, but Wovenwar didn’t go anywhere...can we pretend to be religious again and pull in the sympathy money from Christian kids?”


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## ArtDecade (Jun 9, 2018)

Regardless of your position on capital punishment and redemption, just don't support crap music.


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## Soya (Jun 9, 2018)

A grating opinion from artdecade? Who would've thought.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 10, 2018)

Now I _have _to scroll back up and “like” it.


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## Soya (Jun 10, 2018)




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## Spicypickles (Jun 10, 2018)

I’m just curious how shitty the wife was for the dude to try and get rid of her. Must have bitched about the toilet seat one too many times. 

Music is meh, no interest.


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## Demiurge (Jun 10, 2018)

^My guess: vocalist in a 3rd-tier metal band who has enough cash to order a hit on his wife- it's probably the wife who has the money and was threatening to cut his 'allowance'. I mean, if life were a detective show that's how it would be.


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## Ralyks (Jun 10, 2018)

My question is, did his ex wife forgive him? We can talk about the rest of the band, but that’s the one I’m curious about.

Also, while they aren’t Metallica, I imagine they made a comfortable living as a band.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 10, 2018)

Ralyks said:


> My question is, did his ex wife forgive him? We can talk about the rest of the band, but that’s the one I’m curious about.
> 
> Also, while they aren’t Metallica, I imagine they made a comfortable living as a band.




There are many bands bigger than them that aren't making a comfortable living.


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## bostjan (Jun 11, 2018)

Ralyks said:


> I imagine they made a comfortable living as a band.



"Two hots and a cot."


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 11, 2018)

feraledge said:


> To the "he did his time" folks, I'm against the prison system and generally for not eternally judging people for whatever might amount to a horrible outcome of a bad interaction, as many prisoners are. This is not one of those cases. Dude is a sociopath and he's used excuses and religion to try to cover for just being a shitbag. It's not like he was all fucked up and flipped out, said he would kill his wife, he tried to hire someone to kill her. Not exactly a spur of the moment thing. It's not like the other scenario is okay by any stretch, but you can say things in anger and then sleep it off. You can do things in anger and regret them. Both of those things would be more genuine than thinking 2.5 years for getting caught changes anything about who this dude is.
> I mean, he's got a life to live now, he's still a shitbag, but getting the band back together is "you should forgive me" which isn't the same as "I've changed and I'm not going back to the same patterns that brought out the worst in me." He's practically going back to the scene of the crime.
> The whole religion thing creeps me out. It's dudes like this that need an easy redemption and then are willing to use it repeatedly. I'm sure that if it works for him this time (which it seemingly has enough), he'll just do it next time.
> Either way, the band sucks, always has and always will. I couldn't give two shits about them really, but if you want to point out how people have made horrible decisions and changed, been stuck in shit situations, or especially those that have been caught for things that weren't bad at all, this isn't the case to try to hang that hat on.
> ...



Fact is, we are reading all of this from news websites who are often wrong, who make up whatever narratives sound dramatic to get you to click. Quotes out of context. Statements that get twisted. 

From what I do know as fact, guy was sentenced to 6 years and he has managed to convince his parole board to release him early. I have to have faith in the system and assume that those people know more than me about this case and this person, and that they made an educated decision.

Is he a piece of shit? Probably. I can't imagine a "good" person doing what he did. And the religion thing is quite likely for PR more than anything else. But I'm a metal fan, and I'll listen to whatever I like. And I think this new song is pretty good and I'll certainly check out a new album on Spotify. Simple.


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## Ralyks (Jun 11, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> There are many bands bigger than them that aren't making a comfortable living.



My mistake. They just seemed like they were in a decent position on the heavy music chain. Maybe I should have been more “they seem like they do well enough to not need day jobs”, but I could be wrong there too.


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## feraledge (Jun 11, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Fact is, we are reading all of this from news websites who are often wrong, who make up whatever narratives sound dramatic to get you to click. Quotes out of context. Statements that get twisted.


What the fuck are you talking about? For what you're saying to make sense, there would have to be a conspiracy that:
1) he didn't try to hire a hitman to kill his wife
2) he hasn't made statements about being changed as a Christian or whatever
If someone is saying that, it's crazy. These are clear facts. I'm not basing my ideas off of any particular or mysterious quote. No particulars other than the fact that he's tried to have someone kill his wife and pulled some "forgiveness in the eyes of God and State" kind of shit.
Literally no other narrative here than the facts.


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## wannabguitarist (Jun 11, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> There are many bands bigger than them that aren't making a comfortable living.



I've been under the impression they actually did very well for themselves. Owning a house in San Diego, even with 2 incomes is no small feat. Last estimate I looked at was around $180k a year to afford the average house in the area 

Someone in the band also owns a metal bar/venue north of the airport called Brick by Brick. Really cool place.


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## NoodleFace (Jun 11, 2018)

They did make some catchy tunes, almost a guilty pleasure for me as I don't typically listen to metalcore.

What he did was stupid, but I'm a firm believer that if you do your time you should be allowed to reintegrate into society. Someone mentioned he did half his time - that's just how it works. He did "his time" by staying until the powers that be decided he was ready to leave. It's not like this is unheard of.

Now, I'm not a fool - pedophiles should stay away from children, sexual predators should register, etc. I don't think the guy should be barred from working ever again because of his crime. 

Whether people pay the band after all of this is up to them. Vote with your wallets.


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## downburst82 (Jun 11, 2018)

Im pretty sure I rememered reading Tim was pulling in around $200 000 a year. If I remember correctly it came out in the details of the trial was and/or was mentioned in court documents to do with spousal support his wife was claiming (and Tim's motives).

That wasn't just his income from As I Lay Dying though as he had other projects and investments.


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 12, 2018)

feraledge said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? For what you're saying to make sense, there would have to be a conspiracy that:
> 1) he didn't try to hire a hitman to kill his wife
> 2) he hasn't made statements about being changed as a Christian or whatever
> If someone is saying that, it's crazy. These are clear facts. I'm not basing my ideas off of any particular or mysterious quote. No particulars other than the fact that he's tried to have someone kill his wife and pulled some "forgiveness in the eyes of God and State" kind of shit.
> Literally no other narrative here than the facts.



Nobody denies number 1 or 2, do they?

All I'm saying is that speculators on web forums don't have all the facts. People are saying "he should still be in jail" etc. Based on what? You yourself even said "Both of those things would be more genuine than thinking 2.5 years for getting caught changes anything about who this dude is". How do you know he hasn't changed? Unless you were on his parole board and you are privy to his mindset/attitude then it sounds like you are the one making up theories, based on stuff you read on the Internet...


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## feraledge (Jun 12, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Nobody denies number 1 or 2, do they?
> 
> All I'm saying is that speculators on web forums don't have all the facts. People are saying "he should still be in jail" etc. Based on what? You yourself even said "Both of those things would be more genuine than thinking 2.5 years for getting caught changes anything about who this dude is". How do you know he hasn't changed? Unless you were on his parole board and you are privy to his mindset/attitude then it sounds like you are the one making up theories, based on stuff you read on the Internet...


Making up theories? Ha, cool. People who plot to kill their spouse are typically good people who make bad, plotted and dedicate to prolong choices that are awful once or twice. Guess I’m just spinning yarn here.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 12, 2018)

Maybe he still has tits, and that’s what they’re touring.


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## sawtoothscream (Jun 12, 2018)

Hated the last album of theirs I bought so haven't listened to anything from them since. 

No way in hell they will get any support from me now. I don't care if he did his time, he is a scumbag and idk how the other guys can stand being around that POS.


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## 7soundz (Jun 12, 2018)

I'm not exactly a fan of the band but here is my take.

I'm not sure how many of you have actual experience dealing with prisoners, but from time to time I join a group of individuals who try to assist prisoners during the whole reform process. What I've realized is that some actually get to the point where they realize the significance of their actions, own responsibility for it and may even make a full 360 in their viewpoint of what they've done and be an advocate against their former actions.

While I don't know the lead singer or the exact circumstances of what took place, I'd say that it is a fine line to walk in passing judgement on someone we all honestly don't know. Some say we should separate art from the artist but where do you draw the line? If we all refused to support an artist based on questionable actions, we may hardly ever listen to music at all. Domestic abuse, drugs, promiscuity and so many other harmful and hurtful actions plague many people who we cross paths with on a daily basis (Not just artists).
My personal resolve in situations like this is that if someone expresses remorse for their actions and they give evidence of this in their actions moving forward, I would give them a second chance. If someone decides not to extend forgiveness, then that's fine since it's your choice to do so, but I will always try to treat other the way I would like to be treated if I am remorseful over a grave mistake.

Ultimately, only time will tell if this guy is truly sorry and he has a lot to answer for to his fans who may have looked up to him. He may not win them all back, but I guess this is just the price one will pay for their actions whether you are remorseful or not.


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## bostjan (Jun 12, 2018)

7soundz said:


> where do you draw the line?



Personally, I think that if you draw the line anywhere at all, premeditated murder must fall somewhere over that line. Barring war crimes, I can't really think of any crime more serious than that, can you? To equate premeditated murder with drug use or promiscuity, based on my moral compass, is silly. I understand that my moral compass is not universal, but murder is not a victimless crime like illegal drug use nor mutually consensual sexual contact.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 12, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Maybe he still has tits, and that’s what they’re touring.



As I lay stripping?


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 12, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Personally, I think that if you draw the line anywhere at all, premeditated murder must fall somewhere over that line. Barring war crimes, I can't really think of any crime more serious than that, can you? To equate premeditated murder with drug use or promiscuity, based on my moral compass, is silly. I understand that my moral compass is not universal, but murder is not a victimless crime like illegal drug use nor mutually consensual sexual contact.


I think that might be the part of the thing I find the most amusing. People keep equating the situation to something like stealing a car, or getting in a bar fight where somebody got their ass kicked. It wasn't some brainless felony, or an accident, it was attempted premeditated murder. But whatever, I thought the music was trash for the last few albums before this anyways, so not listening to this to not support the asshat and his obviously weak-willed bandmates isn't much of a dilemma for me.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Jun 12, 2018)

wow, never thought I would see this. I like the new song and TBH I think his vocals are a little better now/more raw.

Regarding what he did. Is ridiculous man. Idk what to say, none of my business and idk Tim or his ex wife. I do know things could have been much worse. I am not defending him in anyway but he didn't kill her. I know he basically tried and that is fucked. Maybe she was crazy, maybe he IS crazy? Who knows. I enjoy the tune, everything else sucks.


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 12, 2018)

And what do you do then? I seriously doubt any sane person's moral compass somehow sees premeditated murder as "oh, not too bad" or even acceptable, yet this dude, like many ex-cons, is now out in the society attempting to prove he is a valid and able member again, and should he falter he will be removed from it with far more severe consequences; if society acts as extremely as the whole proponents of the guy being unredeemable, then he is of course isolated and left without chances of making a living decently, and people who find themselves like that are evidently more prone to commit crimes.

The reintegration rate in the US is comparatively quite low to that of other countries, and I can't help wondering if this mindset of denying a second chance isn't tied to this in in any significant way. The point of corrective punishment such as jail time in a limited time frame is to be both punitive and gateway for reentry, but if the chance of reentry is denied from the get go, what's the point? Might as well go all Mongol and simply execute left and right. 

Ozzy almost killed his wife, yet I see no righteous indignation towards him. I don't see people up in arms about John Lennon's admitted lovely habit of hitting women, or is the latter ok because it isn't fatal? I will respect any individual's choice of accepting Lambesis or not, but some blanket statements of how we "should" do this or that just make no sense to me, at all.


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## 7soundz (Jun 12, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Personally, I think that if you draw the line anywhere at all, premeditated murder must fall somewhere over that line. Barring war crimes, I can't really think of any crime more serious than that, can you? To equate premeditated murder with drug use or promiscuity, based on my moral compass, is silly. I understand that my moral compass is not universal, but murder is not a victimless crime like illegal drug use nor mutually consensual sexual contact.



I agree that premediated murder is a heinous crime (In fact just about any hurtful act that is premediated is despicable.) However, I am also of the view that change is possible for everyone. Whether you can trust them again is a separate issue. I wasn't necessarily equating murder to drug use, but just as the moral compass can vary, the effect of someone's actions can vary in the minds of everyone since we may all hold a different set of core values close to our hearts. A wife for example may be just as unforgiving with a cheating husband as she would someone who committed murder based on her feelings on both matters. Taking a life by far tops the list for me personally, but after seeing for myself how persons who were once in gangs that committing heinous crimes managed to completely turn their lives around and help others avoid their mistakes, I'd say that sometimes there can be a basis to give someone another chance to prove whether they deserve our trust or not.


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## 7soundz (Jun 12, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> And what do you do then? I seriously doubt any sane person's moral compass somehow sees premeditated murder as "oh, not too bad" or even acceptable, yet this dude, like many ex-cons, is now out in the society attempting to prove he is a valid and able member again, and should he falter he will be removed from it with far more severe consequences; if society acts as extremely as the whole proponents of the guy being unredeemable, then he is of course isolated and left without chances of making a living decently, and people who find themselves like that are evidently more prone to commit crimes.
> 
> The reintegration rate in the US is comparatively quite low to that of other countries, and I can't help wondering if this mindset of denying a second chance isn't tied to this in in any significant way. The point of corrective punishment such as jail time in a limited time frame is to be both punitive and gateway for reentry, but if the chance of reentry is denied from the get go, what's the point? Might as well go all Mongol and simply execute left and right.
> 
> Ozzy almost killed his wife, yet I see no righteous indignation towards him. I don't see people up in arms about John Lennon's admitted lovely habit of hitting women, or is the latter ok because it isn't fatal? I will respect any individual's choice of accepting Lambesis or not, but some blanket statements of how we "should" do this or that just make no sense to me, at all.



Well said. I can't speak for the U.S society, but where I live it is not unheard of to see the family of a victim forgive a killer or to see a murderer be reformed back into society and even be an advocate for change. Sure, examples like these are the minority, but making blanket statements without knowing the individual or the facts of the matter is pointless. Give it time and time will tell if he is a changed person or not.


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## duffbeer33 (Jun 12, 2018)

The song is good, to me it sounds directly comparable to the material on _Awakened_. It's difficult to figure out how to support this band going forward. I have been a huge fan of Nick and Phil's guitar work over the years -- they are some of the most talented shredders in metalcore, imo. Clearly Tim's situation was horrible, as everyone on this forum knows. Watching videos back in 2011-2013 you could tell that he had been living in a bubble away from the rest of the band, obsessed with weightlifting and body image. If the "Hitman" he paid had actually gone through with the intended plan, Tim would be in jail for life. But the crime didn't happen, as luck would have it, and here we are with Tim back. 

What I don't understand is why AILD couldn't just replace him with another screamer? Surely there are thousands of other screamers that would have jumped at the opportunity to replace Tim. Bringing Tim back may have made some fans happy, but countless others will drop support from the band forever.


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## bostjan (Jun 12, 2018)

7soundz said:


> I agree that premediated murder is a heinous crime (In fact just about any hurtful act that is premediated is despicable.) However, I am also of the view that change is possible for everyone. Whether you can trust them again is a separate issue. I wasn't necessarily equating murder to drug use, but just as the moral compass can vary, the effect of someone's actions can vary in the minds of everyone since we may all hold a different set of core values close to our hearts. A wife for example may be just as unforgiving with a cheating husband as she would someone who committed murder based on her feelings on both matters. Taking a life by far tops the list for me personally, but after seeing for myself how persons who were once in gangs that committing heinous crimes managed to completely turn their lives around and help others avoid their mistakes, I'd say that sometimes there can be a basis to give someone another chance to prove whether they deserve our trust or not.


If he had murdered his wife successfully, as he intended, then she wouldn't ever have had the opportunity to forgive him. 


Fred the Shred said:


> And what do you do then? I seriously doubt any sane person's moral compass somehow sees premeditated murder as "oh, not too bad" or even acceptable, yet this dude, like many ex-cons, is now out in the society attempting to prove he is a valid and able member again, and should he falter he will be removed from it with far more severe consequences; if society acts as extremely as the whole proponents of the guy being unredeemable, then he is of course isolated and left without chances of making a living decently, and people who find themselves like that are evidently more prone to commit crimes.
> 
> The reintegration rate in the US is comparatively quite low to that of other countries, and I can't help wondering if this mindset of denying a second chance isn't tied to this in in any significant way. The point of corrective punishment such as jail time in a limited time frame is to be both punitive and gateway for reentry, but if the chance of reentry is denied from the get go, what's the point? Might as well go all Mongol and simply execute left and right.
> 
> Ozzy almost killed his wife, yet I see no righteous indignation towards him. I don't see people up in arms about John Lennon's admitted lovely habit of hitting women, or is the latter ok because it isn't fatal? I will respect any individual's choice of accepting Lambesis or not, but some blanket statements of how we "should" do this or that just make no sense to me, at all.


Wow, that's a slippery slope argument. "Don't want to support a band with a lead singer who tried to have his wife murdered by a hitman? Might as well execute everyone who ever committed a crime!" I guess there is no middle ground on the internet anymore, you know, a place where a convicted solicitor of murder can get a job in a career field that doesn't rely solely on public support of its personalities for funding.
Also, what's with the "Oh you don't support Lambesis?! Why do you support John Lenon/Ozzy/Varg/Lostprophets/etc.?! Gotcha!" stuff? Who in this thread said that they supported any of those people?
And something not being as bad as something else that ends up killing people does not make it okay. This is another extreme example of a slippery slope all-or-nothing argument that makes no sense.
At the end of the day, Lambesis did a thing that is probably just about at the top of the list of shitty things a person can possibly do, and he's shown that he feels no remorse for it. On top of that, he's done other shitty things before and since that lead me to believe he's just a shitty person and he'll probably never change. If he did change, and he's no longer a shitty person, it'll take a hell of a lot more than him saying "I'm no longer a shitty person, praise Jesus!" to convince me. If he turns around and donates 100% of his portion of the proceeds of the album to a battered women's charity or something, then maybe I'll reconsider. Until then...


TL DR: There are better bands out there with better singers who have not committed attempted murder, who are way more deserving of my attention. Feel free to do whatever you guys want to do, but allow me to be disgusted by the thing that I find disgusting. No amount of arguing is going to get me to support this slimeball. To that end, I'll be muting this thread from here on out.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Jun 12, 2018)

duffbeer33 said:


> What I don't understand is why AILD couldn't just replace him with another screamer?



This is what I thought way back when this stuff happened and they split. Why not just replace Tim, yeah his vocals were great but not irreplaceable.

However, who knows their situation? I do not. Maybe he owns the name, maybe he writes the music? Not really sure but that is what I felt they should have done.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 12, 2018)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> This is what I thought way back when this stuff happened and they split. Why not just replace Tim, yeah his vocals were great but not irreplaceable.
> 
> However, who knows their situation? I do not. Maybe he owns the name, maybe he writes the music? Not really sure but that is what I felt they should have done.



Yeah this has "lawyer talk" written all over it. 

I'm sure all parties looked over every outstanding contract and came up with nothing since I doubt anyone planned on him being this terrible of a person. 

Usually a band member's death/disability is worked into this stuff. You'd think, given the nature of the business that they'd put something in there for a case like this, but I could see it being omitted, especially with an established act.


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 12, 2018)

duffbeer33 said:


> What I don't understand is why AILD couldn't just replace him with another screamer? Surely there are thousands of other screamers that would have jumped at the opportunity to replace Tim. Bringing Tim back may have made some fans happy, but countless others will drop support from the band forever.



As far as I'm aware, Tim and Jordan own the IP. So no Tim, no AILD.


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 12, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Wow, that's a slippery slope argument. "Don't want to support a band with a lead singer who tried to have his wife murdered by a hitman? Might as well execute everyone who ever committed a crime!" I guess there is no middle ground on the internet anymore, you know, a place where a convicted solicitor of murder can get a job in a career field that doesn't rely solely on public support of its personalities for funding.



In my post, there's this: "I will respect any individual's choice of accepting Lambesis or not, but some blanket statements of how we "should" do this or that just make no sense to me, at all." so, in a nutshell, the opposite of what you conclude I said.



bostjan said:


> Also, what's with the "Oh you don't support Lambesis?! Why do you support John Lenon/Ozzy/Varg/Lostprophets/etc.?! Gotcha!" stuff? Who in this thread said that they supported any of those people?
> And something not being as bad as something else that ends up killing people does not make it okay. This is another extreme example of a slippery slope all-or-nothing argument that makes no sense.



It's there simply to point out of full of hypocritical BS this sort of event is. All this outrage, all these extreme positions all over the internet that can be summarized into "if you listen to AILS you support murder and you're a sack of shit" that are as senseless as the extreme apologists that talk of hiring a hitman as if it's "not that bad" from the extremes on the other end - this happens to the dude that actually displayed regret and remorse and was deemed fit to be released, but not a ton of other, far more popular artists. Why? Why is it morally acceptable to have Jimmy Page, David Bowie and many others frolicking with kids as low as 13 that are known of but not to accept a released ex-con that actually served time. This is what intrigues me, and it isn't related to any expression of support / condemnation in this particular thread.



bostjan said:


> At the end of the day, Lambesis did a thing that is probably just about at the top of the list of shitty things a person can possibly do, and he's shown that he feels no remorse for it. On top of that, he's done other shitty things before and since that lead me to believe he's just a shitty person and he'll probably never change. If he did change, and he's no longer a shitty person, it'll take a hell of a lot more than him saying "I'm no longer a shitty person, praise Jesus!" to convince me. If he turns around and donates 100% of his portion of the proceeds of the album to a battered women's charity or something, then maybe I'll reconsider. Until then...


Honestly, and this may sound contradictory, I always take a good bit of time accepting such sudden contrition as totally genuine, and there is a strong chance he was simply clever and played the system. I am, however, inclined to believe that, failing that, knowing that he's complete and utterly fucked on relapse and what a good time there is to be had in the can will keep him in check. Hopefully, it comes to be.



> TL DR: There are better bands out there with better singers who have not committed attempted murder, who are way more deserving of my attention. Feel free to do whatever you guys want to do, but allow me to be disgusted by the thing that I find disgusting. No amount of arguing is going to get me to support this slimeball. To that end, I'll be muting this thread from here on out.


Please understand I am NOT trying to convince anyone to support him - hell, I'm not even into the band at all  -, just to get a more down to earth debate regarding stuff that isn't just a lot of black vs white, but rather a vaster subject with a lot of grey territory.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 12, 2018)

I think it's worth mentioning, especially for the folks not from the US, that our prison system is pretty much garbage compared to the rest of the western world. Seriously. The situation here is awful. We really need to do something about it...but we won't. 

There is next to zero focus on rehabilitation and the parole system is just as broken as the rest of it. 

I'm sure if he was imprisoned in a country that has its act together many would be more willing to take the parole boards assessment in good faith. 

I'm not saying that it was the right or wrong call to release him, but it's par the course for famous, not-poor white people to be released from our overcrowded prisons to make room for more non-violent first time drug offenders.

Also, of note, he's so sorry that he tried suing the prison for $35 million because he had to go through steroid withdrawal and it's rather unpleasant, yet voluptuous side effects. Nothing says "I take responsibility for my situation" quite like suing for millions because you can't juice anymore.


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 12, 2018)

Man, that is one hell of a scenario. No emphasis on rehabilitation? So that's basically just a "we got him off the streets for [amount of time]" procedure with no intent to help prevent reincidence - hardly what I'd call "brilliant".


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## Edika (Jun 12, 2018)

@Fred the Shred I understand the point you and some other people make about rehabilitation, reform and forgiveness. I just think it's something he has to earn and not be handed to him in a silver platter that a lot of people seem to be doing. He is a public figure and his income is based on public acceptance, it's not like he was an employee in a company or a tradesman. Theoretically everyone deserves a second chance and they should get it. But trust must be earned.


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 12, 2018)

But of course - I am not some sort of believer in near-instant infallible rehabilitation, else we'd have no crime reincidence as the prison would function as some sort of enlightenment dispenser then (not that I'd mind that, but let's be realistic...  ). I simply don't believe in a social paradigm that defends the reintegration of the offender if said offender isn't helped in terms of his journey to rejoin society and society itself rejects him out of principle.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 12, 2018)

Edika said:


> @Fred the Shred I understand the point you and some other people make about rehabilitation, reform and forgiveness. I just think it's something he has to earn and not be handed to him in a silver platter that a lot of people seem to be doing. He is a public figure and his income is based on public acceptance, it's not like he was an employee in a company or a tradesman. Theoretically everyone deserves a second chance and they should get it. But trust must be earned.




I mean if you want to put it like that, how about actually giving him a chance to earn it instead of everyone just assuming the worst right off the bat? You say a lot of people are handing him that on a silver platter, what about the people who aren't who seem to be condemning him in droves?


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## groverj3 (Jun 12, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> Man, that is one hell of a scenario. No emphasis on rehabilitation? So that's basically just a "we got him off the streets for [amount of time]" procedure with no intent to help prevent reincidence - hardly what I'd call "brilliant".


Yes, that's pretty much what happens here. The prison system was originally created based on the idea that if you lock someone away and "make them think about their crimes" they'll get better all on their own. Obviously they give lip service to rehabilitation today, but it's not really worked into the system as a priority.

Then there's the racial and socioeconomic disparities in incarceration rate for the same crimes. Additionally, the system comes down HARD on people for drug offenses. Harder than some violent crimes. There are people in prison for posessing marijuana longer than Tim was.


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 12, 2018)

Edika said:


> @Fred the Shred I understand the point you and some other people make about rehabilitation, reform and forgiveness. I just think it's something he has to earn and not be handed to him in a silver platter that a lot of people seem to be doing. He is a public figure and his income is based on public acceptance, it's not like he was an employee in a company or a tradesman. Theoretically everyone deserves a second chance and they should get it. But trust must be earned.



True, trust needs to be earned, but some people in the thread don't want to give him that chance. He's been making music his entire adult life, this is probably all he knows. I don't see why he shouldn't be able to pursue his career in music again. Afterall, it's down to his sales figures to decide whether or not he does in fact get to, so I guess we just have to wait and see what happens on that front.


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## 7soundz (Jun 12, 2018)

Time will indeed show whether he is genuine or not. It's funny how when we make our own slip ups (big or small), we always want to be given another chance but find it difficult to extend the courtesy to others. Everyone has the right to make their choice but I hope we can handle it when we are the ones being judged. The internet seems to thrive of a "mob" like social justice crusade without having all the facts about a particular situation. 

Perhaps the best way I can describe my own view of the matter is that I'm cautiously optimistic until proven wrong.


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## feraledge (Jun 12, 2018)

7soundz said:


> Perhaps the best way I can describe my own view of the matter is that I'm cautiously optimistic until proven wrong.


Big "my bad" if someone ends up getting killed in the end.

The whole thing keeps swirling around the idea that if you support the idea that people can be rehabilitated (which I do and which the prison system seriously does not foster), that what he did is on the redeemable spectrum (which it doesn't have to be), and that he should be given a chance again.
Cool, he's out of prison, he's going to need to work, but the rockstar life/dream is doled out to very few people and typically brings out the worst in them. Probably why he got all 'roided out in the first place and tie that to a shit personality and you get him wanting to have his ex killed.
Can those defending him not see that there's a gulf between giving him a chance to not have someone murdered and sticking him on massive stages where young kids are going to look up to him? He's a goddamn rockstar. If he finds redemption/salvation, he'll become upheld even more, but there's nothing healthy about that situation.
He wants to earn respect, cool, volunteer at women's shelters and take a shit job. Don't think you deserve to still be a rockstar.
And to the people who think they're sticking it to the "SJW"s by supporting him, really? Not just how, but why?

I still think the whole thing is bonkers. If he freaked out and killed someone, I'd be far more inclined to think there's something about him that could be changed. He plotted to have his wife killed by someone else. That's so fucked. By all means, let's give this guy a bunch of money again to see how it unfolds in round two, right?
Lest we forget, money and fame (even on such a small scale) are no less addicting than drugs.
If he wants to really earn respect, he needs to know what he did isn't going to be wiped away with some prayers and good behavior. He shouldn't be seeking redemption, he should just stop being a shitty person. I don't see how getting the band back together is anywhere near the path forward if that's his intent.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 12, 2018)

Obviously a solid 50% plus of the original fan base could care less As loNg aS HE sCreAm GoOD....


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 12, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Big "my bad" if someone ends up getting killed in the end.
> 
> The whole thing keeps swirling around the idea that if you support the idea that people can be rehabilitated (which I do and which the prison system seriously does not foster), that what he did is on the redeemable spectrum (which it doesn't have to be), and that he should be given a chance again.
> Cool, he's out of prison, he's going to need to work, but the rockstar life/dream is doled out to very few people and typically brings out the worst in them. Probably why he got all 'roided out in the first place and tie that to a shit personality and you get him wanting to have his ex killed.
> ...



If it were you, would you pass on being a touring musician to flip burgers? And "I wouldn't be in that situation because I wouldn't hire a hitman," is not a valid answer because the reality of the situation is that he did and he had to make that call when he got out. 

Look- I get it, I've said it earlier in this thread, I am totally on board with not supporting him on principle. But I don't think that we can say "You don't get to play music anymore."
I think the free market should do it's work. If he doesn't have an audience, he doesn't have a career as a musician. 
I'm not arguing that you're wrong about that environment either- insanity is doing the same things over and over yet expecting different results. Why would we expect a positive change in his life when he's going through the same motions as before? I mean really, all you have to do is pop into The Faceless' thread and read about Keane for a few minutes to validate everything you said about the touring environment. I just don't think that's a call that we get to make for him. 

And I'm not sure I agree that it's less likely that he's changed because it was premeditated. 
Stuff like this is a very, very harsh reality check. When he set everything up, he was probably living in his own world doing his own thing, and didn't think for a second that any of it would have consequences. Once reality comes slamming down on top of you like that (nothing says "guess who isn't special" quite like a prison sentence), you start realizing things really quickly. To run with the rehabilitation example, most of the former gangbangers and such that you see that actually manage to turn their life around and do something positive only do so after they either get caught, or something really, really heavy snaps some sense into them. I think it's definitely possible that Tim had a real case of snowflake syndrome and a bitch-slap from the justice system could potentially have set him straight.

At this point I don't think he wants respect. I think he just wants to make music.


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## feraledge (Jun 12, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> "I wouldn't be in that situation because I wouldn't hire a hitman," is not a valid answer because the reality of the situation is that he did and he had to make that call when he got out.


It is entirely a valid answer. I don’t care what life is preferable for him, there’s no contesting what he did. And trust me, I have had the threat of prison wielded against me for political reasons before. A number of my friends have done hard time for protest actions and they have to deal with how hard life after prison can be. But that’s why the reason he went matters. Some of the best people I have interviewed for positions came out of prison: people who saw the path ahead and were ready to work harder because of it. And a lot of those people had pretty bullshit charges. He gets to play rockstar again? Yeah, I don’t get it. And saying I wouldn’t have my ex killed is beyond a reasonable response to this. 
I don’t think this is that complex. Plotting the murder of a (formerly) loved one is such a uniquely depraved scenario that you can’t just dismiss it.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 12, 2018)

feraledge said:


> It is entirely a valid answer. I don’t care what life is preferable for him, there’s no contesting what he did. And trust me, I have had the threat of prison wielded against me for political reasons before. A number of my friends have done hard time for protest actions and they have to deal with how hard life after prison can be. But that’s why the reason he went matters. Some of the best people I have interviewed for positions came out of prison: people who saw the path ahead and were ready to work harder because of it. And a lot of those people had pretty bullshit charges. He gets to play rockstar again? Yeah, I don’t get it. And saying I wouldn’t have my ex killed is beyond a reasonable response to this.
> I don’t think this is that complex. Plotting the murder of a (formerly) loved one is such a uniquely depraved scenario that you can’t just dismiss it.



But nobody is dismissing it. Personally I think he should still be in prison and I'm dumbfounded that his sentence was under 10 years.

But you mention that some of your best interviewees had served time- doesn't that kind of speak volumes to what a good reality check can do?
It sounds like you're saying that he should only be *allowed* to flip burgers. 

Imagine if people said that about your friends.
If someone you know was locked up for bullshit, trumped up charges, written to sound far more severe than they were, and when they got out, people proudly exclaimed that they should only be allowed onto the first rung of the societal ladder. By *NO *means am I equating anything in this hypothetical to what Tim did, but the principle is still there. 

Would this be as big of a deal if he were a doctor? If Tim was a neurosurgeon bringing in $500,000 a year and got arrested and paroled for the same thing, would it be as big of a deal if he went back to being a surgeon making...I dunno, $350,000 a year? At the end of the day, it's just a profession. It's just what he does. I don't follow why we're seemingly more mad about this than the fact that he's out of prison in the first place.


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## downburst82 (Jun 12, 2018)

Just because I think its certainly relavent and I dont think it has been posted yet.

This is Tim's statement from December 2017




> Words cannot begin to express how deeply sorry I am for the hurt that I have caused. There is no defense for what I did, and I look back on the person I became with as much disdain as many of you likely do.
> 
> First, I apologize to my former wife and remarkable children for my appalling actions. There’s not a single day that goes by where I don’t wish I could undo the damage I caused, and out of respect for their wishes I will not discuss anything else about them (now or in the future). I also ask anyone reading this to promote healing for them by respecting their privacy and defending them from any negativity or anger which should be directed towards me. I was the sole offender and the only one to blame for everything that happened.
> 
> ...



And the Lyrics to the new song



> The lies, the weight, deceit, decay
> The lies, the weight
> It's clear I lost my way
> Deceit, decay
> ...




While its certainly fair to have doubts about his apologies being genuine...he made his apologies and didn't place the blame on anyone but himself, thats always the right way to start.


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## feraledge (Jun 12, 2018)

@Ordacleaphobia You keep tossing out this or that scenarios...


Ordacleaphobia said:


> But you mention that some of your best interviewees had served time- doesn't that kind of speak volumes to what a good reality check can do?
> It sounds like you're saying that he should only be *allowed* to flip burgers.


It's not even a reality check. I had a guy that our company couldn't insure because he lost his driver's license over unpaid child support. He did time for that. Wasn't able to work because he couldn't drive (trucking in his past), wasn't able to pay child support because he couldn't work, then was barely able to get shit jobs because he got out of jail. What's the reality check for that dude? Because tons of people end up in that situation (not saying people who don't pay child support are some kind of unsung hero!), but it comes down to who has money to pay for the better lawyer. 
But a lot of the dudes I interviewed worked shit jobs. I'm not saying that anyone should have to, but why does Tim get a leg up because people are more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt even though, objectively speaking, he doesn't deserve it? 
I'm not saying he should have to flip burgers, I'm saying don't put him on stage and give him a pay check because he wrote a song about how badly he screwed himself over by trying to get his ex-wife killed. 



Ordacleaphobia said:


> Imagine if people said that about your friends.
> If someone you know was locked up for bullshit, trumped up charges, written to sound far more severe than they were, and when they got out, people proudly exclaimed that they should only be allowed onto the first rung of the societal ladder. By *NO *means am I equating anything in this hypothetical to what Tim did, but the principle is still there.


They do say that. People say that about all prisoners! Someone gets busted with a little weed and people are ready to condemn them forever if they couldn't afford the right lawyer. I'm not saying any of that is okay, but that circumstances matter. I don't think the system is fair and I don't think the way people see prisoners-as-prisoners is okay. But that's an argument for uneven justice here, are people more willing to give a 'roided out white dude who was semi-famous in a scene more of the benefit of a the doubt than anyone else? Why? What he did was largely way worse. 
And to clarify it further, what happens in these cases is that having gone to prison doesn't mean you're the worst person, but you have to live with being caught. Anytime I saw odd breaks in employment, I knew I could piece together their low points in ways that other people just lied about. There was one dude who just had an abrupt shift in careers that seemed odd. Here he was some pedo-high school teacher. Disgusting stuff. But I don't think he did any time at all, but a registered sex offender. He tried to get teenage girls to lick chalk dust off his fingers. Again, unequivocally, you should demand a much greater burden of proof to think that dude has changed. In my eyes, Tim is closer to that dude than just about anyone else I know out of prison. 



Ordacleaphobia said:


> Would this be as big of a deal if he were a doctor? If Tim was a neurosurgeon bringing in $500,000 a year and got arrested and paroled for the same thing, would it be as big of a deal if he went back to being a surgeon making...I dunno, $350,000 a year? At the end of the day, it's just a profession. It's just what he does. I don't follow why we're seemingly more mad about this than the fact that he's out of prison in the first place.


Yeah, it'd be a MUCH bigger deal. Are you telling me you would take your loved one to a neurosurgeon if you knew they had done time for trying to solicit the murder of their spouse? Now that's just crazy. 
And for the record, when richer people actually do time, you know what they did was FUCKED.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 12, 2018)

We need to break down the barriers, fight stigma and discrimination, and ensure total inclusiveness in the struggle against AIDS.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 12, 2018)

shitstorm: the thread

i dig the track and could give two shits about him trying to kill his wife. 

come at me brah


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## Vyn (Jun 12, 2018)

@feraledge I think @Ordacleaphobia is less so trying to change your viewpoint and more saying why he has his. I get your opinion, guy knowingly band deliberately tried to get someone killed, therefore trust him with a grain of salt, he's not going to change and doesn't deserve anything for being a scumbag, much less than being able to preform in front of a sold-out metal crowd. 

But, he's out of jail which means he can now try to do something with his life again, and we can sit here online arguing about whether or not he should be able to do so until our keyboards stop working but it's not going to change anything. If you're opposed to it, or even just think that the music is shit, vote with your wallet, nothing wrong with that. If you dig it and doesn't give a shit about what's happened then that's cool too. Whether or not AILD manage to be successful due to the stigma around Tim is another thing altogether but I reckon there's enough AILD fans left who will pay to see them and pay for their music that they will be able to build a career again.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 13, 2018)

Can't wait till the album hits. I'll buy my copy gladly.


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 13, 2018)

ITT: people who are way too easily offended, armchair amateur psychologists, and people who can read minds

I see it very simply. He's an ex-con, trying to get on with his life. If the music is good, I'll listen. If it's not, I won't.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 13, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> ITT: people who are way too easily offended, armchair amateur psychologists, and people who can read minds
> 
> I see it very simply. He's an ex-con, trying to get on with his life. If the music is good, I'll listen. If it's not, I won't.




You're being far too reasonable about this.


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## Vyn (Jun 13, 2018)

Just thought I'd check the view count and likes on YouTube for giggles. Seems like an awful lot of people actually don't care about what happened.


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## Randy (Jun 13, 2018)

I've bought every previous AILD album and the first ADM album, I thought Wovenwar sucked, I'm not totally opposed to redemption for Tim (although I still think he's a massive piece of shit, unrelated to being an ex-con), and I still think the song fuckin blew. The lyrics are so hamfisted and corny, and the instrumentation itself would've barely cut it as a b-side on a previous album. I have literally no idea why anybody's getting excited about from this musically.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 13, 2018)

Well, thing is, people have different opinions. I don't find a million random notes with an overly tight mid range tinged guitar sound to be all that appealing, yet that's what this site mostly celebrates. Just because you don't find the appeal in it doesn't mean that that's how everyone feels.


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## Dredg (Jun 13, 2018)

Yea Tim is a shitbag human for trying to have his then-wife killed, but its clear that he is atoning for his sins through word and deed. In his open letter, he made note that he had penned and released his apologies after being completely severed from the legal system, which to his credit does mean that there is no ulterior motive - this won't earn him brownie points with the courts, or a parole board or any other legal entity. The guy acknowledges that he basically threw his entire life away and acted alone and of his own will.

Do people change? Can people be rehabilitated? Yes and Yes. Is he still a shitbag? I don't know. Does he "deserve" to be back making music in AILD? probably not, but that isn't up to us; that is up to the other members of the band - they have to work with him, they have to stake their reputation on him, and this obviously wasn't some spontaneous, half-baked decision.

If y'all don't want to give your money to AILD, there's no shame in that. Such justification is much more valid than standard reasons for not wanting to support a band, but this is a bit overly dramatic, is it not? There wasn't any drama that I recall when Faust rejoined Emperor a few years back, and that dude straight up murdered a dude, and he's still a career musician to this day. GG Allin is hailed as iconic, and he was one of the craziest bastards to ever pick up an instrument.

And I hope MetalSucks continues their crusade by releasing statements on Varg, Faust, Gaahl, and other metal musicians (along with any and all associated acts) as to why they will refuse to cover people who either commit or conspire to commit acts of violence.


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## Edika (Jun 13, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> ITT: people who are way too easily offended, armchair amateur psychologists, and people who can read minds



I like these type of statements, more or less nulifies any type of discussion about any topic ever. And true I get easily offended by people trying to hire assasins and that sets off my inner amateur psychologist when that person tries to walk back into my wallet playing the half assed emotional card. 

Do you feel it's over discussed and get triggered by this thread? Then stop being offended and don't bother reading this thread and commenting. See it works both ways.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 13, 2018)

Actually, it’s spelled “”


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## NoodleFace (Jun 13, 2018)

Someone like Jon Nödtveidt actually was an accessory to a murder, and both him and his band are considered absolute legends. I'm not comparing AILD to Dissection, but people have supported much worse.


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## Randy (Jun 13, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Well, thing is, people have different opinions. I don't find a million random notes with an overly tight mid range tinged guitar sound to be all that appealing, yet that's what this site mostly celebrates. Just because you don't find the appeal in it doesn't mean that that's how everyone feels.



That's fine, I just haven't heard that appeal quantified to any great extent. The things I've liked about AILD has always been riffs, the way the vocals play off the instruments rhythmically and the way the clean vocals punctuate the song. This song has no memorable riffs, Tim's vocals just sound like a growly blanket over the verses and the clean vocals are well delivered but corny as fuck.

My point was that it's seemed like, 90/10 'I like this' 'I don't like this' based on the Tim Lambesis saga moreso than the quality of the song itself. I'm sure you're earnest when you say you like the song but without most people pointing to specifically WHAT they like about the song, it sounds more like "I wholeheartedly endorse anything that pwns snowflakes" enjoyment than it actually being an objectively good song.

EDIT: Also, the guitars in this song absolutely sound like "a million random notes"


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 13, 2018)

Edika said:


> I like these type of statements, more or less nulifies any type of discussion about any topic ever. And true I get easily offended by people trying to hire assasins and that sets off my inner amateur psychologist when that person tries to walk back into my wallet playing the half assed emotional card.
> 
> Do you feel it's over discussed and get triggered by this thread? Then stop being offended and don't bother reading this thread and commenting. See it works both ways.



I'm more referring to the amateur psychologists who can read Tim's mind, know that his apologies aren't genuine, know that he isn't actually remorseful or changed etc. Yet the professionals in the judicial system and the people he works with closest of all have all chosen to forgive him.

I'm totally fine with discussing the music, and the thread title and original post simply states that they are back together and have released a new song. However, much of the speculation here about Tim's motivations is borderline conspiracy theory. And as I said, if the music is good then I'll listen, and if not, then I won't. I wasn't telling anybody not to post.


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## Randy (Jun 13, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> I'm more referring to the amateur psychologists who can read Tim's mind, know that his apologies aren't genuine, know that he isn't actually remorseful or changed etc.



I don't need to read anybody's mind

The first we heard of Tim potentially reuniting with the band was in December when he released a statement apologizing for everything unequivocally, and saying he waited as long as he did because he wanted to make sure it wasn't done at time that'd imply he was trying to gain any favor, yet the statement was released through the official AILD Facebook page at the same time they announced they were re-releasing two of their albums on LP. Mighty convenient timing to send the message "Hey, Tim's learned his lesson, it's safe to not hate us now. Oh yeah, and we've got two new vinyls coming out"

The first single is clearly a reference to the whole saga and once again, it has the theme of "I'm sorry for everything I've done and I did this to myself" but guess what? His apology song is making them $$$. Mind you, this is coming from the same guy who admitted faking being a Christian band to drive sales. You don't need to be a psychologist to see a recurring theme here.


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## feraledge (Jun 13, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Yet the professionals in the judicial system and the people he works with closest of all have all chosen to forgive him.


Wut?
You know that’s not how it works, right? The legal system isn’t “five years of Hail Mary and you’re forgiven.” It’s a punitive sentence and it’s meant to be a permanent mark, which it most definitely is. Prisons don’t give a shit about reform, but they’re overcrowded and more than willing to be much more lenient on semi-notorious white dudes with some money. That’s a LONG shot from forgiveness.


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## Randy (Jun 13, 2018)

I mean, FWIW, I don't take shit like that into my considerations when it comes to music I'll listen to. I listened to some Burzum after I knew what Varg did and I've listened to some Lostprophets even after Ian Watkins went away. I might've even stated on this site (I know I have on others) that I'd listen to whatever Tim put out after he got outta jail as long as it was "good". 

That doesn't mean I'm necessarily willing to give them my money, but that's a different story.

None of that diminishes the ability to say the guy's a piece of shit that will say anything and do anything to help himself at the expense of others. And I gave the rest of the band some credit when they chose to distance themselves from him but in the grand scheme of things, they basically backed away long enough to not let the guy's reputation drag them down for the three years they HAD no choice but to exclude him from the band anyway. As soon as he's done with his parole (which would have effected his ability to tour), magically all is forgiven and he's learned his lesson and 'Kumbaya' it is.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 13, 2018)

Randy said:


> That's fine, I just haven't heard that appeal quantified to any great extent. The things I've liked about AILD has always been riffs, the way the vocals play off the instruments rhythmically and the way the clean vocals punctuate the song. This song has no memorable riffs, Tim's vocals just sound like a growly blanket over the verses and the clean vocals are well delivered but corny as fuck.
> 
> My point was that it's seemed like, 90/10 'I like this' 'I don't like this' based on the Tim Lambesis saga moreso than the quality of the song itself. I'm sure you're earnest when you say you like the song but without most people pointing to specifically WHAT they like about the song, it sounds more like "I wholeheartedly endorse anything that pwns snowflakes" enjoyment than it actually being an objectively good song.
> 
> EDIT: Also, the guitars in this song absolutely sound like "a million random notes"




Not compared to most of the djent movement, it doesn't. As far as the song itself, I've always liked As I Lay Dying and I've got a bit of a soft spot for metalcore anyways. Yeah, unpopular opinion there, I know. I personally loved the song.


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## Smoked Porter (Jun 13, 2018)

Randy said:


> I've bought every previous AILD album and the first ADM album, I thought Wovenwar sucked, I'm not totally opposed to redemption for Tim (although I still think he's a massive piece of shit, unrelated to being an ex-con), and I still think the song fuckin blew. The lyrics are so hamfisted and corny, and the instrumentation itself would've barely cut it as a b-side on a previous album. I have literally no idea why anybody's getting excited about from this musically.


I've just always been a fan of the way Hipa and Sgrosso play, even with Wovenwar, so I like the guitar work, even though it does sound like an Awakened B-side. I wouldn't be too thrilled if this was the best they all had to offer with the new material though.


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## Zalbu (Jun 13, 2018)

Fred the Shred said:


> I don't see people up in arms about John Lennon's admitted lovely habit of hitting women,


Then you're looking in the wrong places


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## ArtDecade (Jun 13, 2018)

Someone should hire a hitman to deal with whoever wrote that song, ammiright? 
#TooSoonMaybe


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 14, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Then you're looking in the wrong places



I hope so - it's been out since forever, while he was still alive, yet for decades I saw all the praise (along with pretty exaggerated fanboism, like any other star), but no matter how one likes an artist, this "god among men" kind of vision is just out of place for me personally.


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## Beefmuffin (Jun 14, 2018)

"Today marks the first opportunity to freely apologize without any motivation to gain favor from the courts, as I have now completed the entirety of my legal sentence (including the completion of all parole/probation requirements)." 

I love that people are using this as "proof" of how sorry he is and that he doesn't have a hidden agenda behind this apology. You know that if he was actually apologizing for a real reason, like to his family/fans/friends, that he wouldn't have said this right? He would have just apologized and not mentioned anything about the timeliness of it. This is a sign of someone who plans and has a hidden agenda. When I apologize to someone, I don't then explain to them why they should take that apology seriously and why my timing should prove that I am serious about it. Everything he does, as history shows, has been done with a calculated purpose. Claiming to be Christian for sales. Then after getting caught he had an interview explaining his side and trying to prove to the world his wife was the monster, not him (please google some of his earlier interviews). Then he tried to sue the prison...for MILLIONS for something he did to himself. Then after he finally gets out, has a couple songs written and recorded, he promptly releases his public apology, highlighting why his timing means his apology is real...and then shamelessly promotes the songs. I just find that a bit odd, and I certainly wouldn't be using it in favor of my "he deserves another chance" argument.


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 14, 2018)

Beefmuffin said:


> "Today marks the first opportunity to freely apologize without any motivation to gain favor from the courts, as I have now completed the entirety of my legal sentence (including the completion of all parole/probation requirements)."
> 
> I love that people are using this as "proof" of how sorry he is and that he doesn't have a hidden agenda behind this apology. You know that if he was actually apologizing for a real reason, like to his family/fans/friends, that he wouldn't have said this right? He would have just apologized and not mentioned anything about the timeliness of it. This is a sign of someone who plans and has a hidden agenda. When I apologize to someone, I don't then explain to them why they should take that apology seriously and why my timing should prove that I am serious about it. Everything he does, as history shows, has been done with a calculated purpose. Claiming to be Christian for sales. Then after getting caught he had an interview explaining his side and trying to prove to the world his wife was the monster, not him (please google some of his earlier interviews). Then he tried to sue the prison...for MILLIONS for something he did to himself. Then after he finally gets out, has a couple songs written and recorded, he promptly releases his public apology, highlighting why his timing means his apology is real...and then shamelessly promotes the songs. I just find that a bit odd, and I certainly wouldn't be using it in favor of my "he deserves another chance" argument.



I guess that's subjective. To me, explaining he is completely done with his sentence speaks to me that he wants to be understood as being honest, rather than trying to curry the favour of the courts. It's a catch 22 - if he didn't explain, it'd appear dishonest. When he does, it still appears dishonest. That's the problem of outsider perspective, you only have the word of others and your own assumptions to go off. 

In your case, it seems to me that your mind has been made up, so there's not much that'll be able to convince you. I come to this conclusion about you because you say he has a hidden agenda, that everything is calculated and is ultimately dishonest, yet you believe him wholeheartedly when he says he faked his Christian views for sales. You've decided he doesn't deserve to be back in the public eye and making money from music, so you pick and choose which parts best fit your negative image of him. This is confirmation bias. I don't put you at fault for this, this is the issue of the situation entirely. None of us have an insider perspective of the situation AT ALL.


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## shred-o-holic (Jun 15, 2018)

A lot of judgemental bs in this thread. Big surprise. Anyway for the band's sake and for the music I am glad to see them back. I am hoping the new album kicks ass like their prior stuff. Wovenwar wasn't the same.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 15, 2018)

shred-o-holic said:


> A lot of judgemental bs in this thread. Big surprise. Anyway for the band's sake and for the music I am glad to see them back. I am hoping the new album kicks ass like their prior stuff. Wovenwar wasn't the same.



The. Dude. Tried. To. Hire. A. Hitman. To. *KILL*. His. Wife.


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## oc616 (Jun 15, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> The. Dude. Tried. To. Hire. A. Hitman. To. *KILL*. His. Wife.



Its just a prank bro!/s


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## shred-o-holic (Jun 15, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> The. Dude. Tried. To. Hire. A. Hitman. To. *KILL*. His. Wife.



Really/ Wow news to me (sarcasm) I'm not get into a pissing match here about this or any other judgemental BS. I don't know him like I don't know you either. I'm glad the band is back to making music like I had previously stated.


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## feraledge (Jun 15, 2018)

shred-o-holic said:


> Really/ Wow news to me (sarcasm) I'm not get into a pissing match here about this or any other judgemental BS. I don't know him like I don't know you either. I'm glad the band is back to making music like I had previously stated.


Never judge a man by how he conducts himself in life, nor by which loved one he tries to have murdered, nor by incessant cycles of blaming. Judge him by his mouth sounds. That's the trueness of the man's spirit revealed.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 15, 2018)

shred-o-holic said:


> Really/ Wow news to me (sarcasm) I'm not get into a pissing match here about this or any other judgemental BS. I don't know him like I don't know you either. I'm glad the band is back to making music like I had previously stated.



I'm judging you. We all are.
And, you have been found lacking.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 15, 2018)

Guise you're judging the (attempted) wife killer so harshly. Don't be so rude to the guy that barely served half his jail sentence. He can't take all the pressure. He might be a nice person personally. :'(

Seriously. People willing to support this PoS just because he's an easily replaceable vocalist surrounded by great musicians.


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## RoRo56 (Jun 15, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Seriously. People willing to support this PoS just because he's an easily replaceable vocalist surrounded by great musicians.



Not to be pedantic but he's not easily replaceable. The rest of the musicians tried to continue with Wovenwar and they didn't gain any real attention.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 16, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Guise you're judging the (attempted) wife killer so harshly. Don't be so rude to the guy that barely served half his jail sentence. He can't take all the pressure. He might be a nice person personally. :'(
> 
> Seriously. People willing to support this PoS just because he's an easily replaceable vocalist surrounded by great musicians.




Maybe it's just me, but it seems like you and a few others simply can't handle the fact that not everyone feels about Tim and his abilities the way you and a few others do. Your comments on this give me the impression that if there weren't a strict member bashing rule here, it would be a lot less civil from the other side.


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## sawtoothscream (Jun 16, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> The. Dude. Tried. To. Hire. A. Hitman. To. *KILL*. His. Wife.



Seriously , it's not like he stole a candy bar, he tried to have someone murdered and lucky for her he hired a cop instead. Imo attempted murder should carry the same sentence as murder and his ass should be in for life or on death row.


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## Zalbu (Jun 16, 2018)

shred-o-holic said:


> A lot of judgemental bs in this thread.


It's literally impossible to not judge people unless you treat exactly every person you meet exactly the same and don't change your behavior towards them based on how they behave towards you.

And if judging people for trying to hire a hitman to kill his wife is bad, where do we draw the line? Is it wrong to judge Jeffrey Dahmer? Breivik?


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 16, 2018)

Okay and what does that fact have to do with the people who enjoy the music he's making? That's the question I'm asking. I'm not denying my ears just because the person that made it is a shitbag. That's obviously how quite a few others feel as well. It's quite clear that neither side is going to convince the other so really what it comes down to is group a.) who detract from him and his music and use recent events to do so and group b.) who simply want to hear more As I Lay Dying and are willing to forgive and forget or they just want more AILD. "Vote with your wallets, blah, blah, blah!" Okay I'm buying the album when it comes out and so are a few others possibly, so unless you're willing to actually break a few rules here, you're not going to say anything that hasn't already been said. Neither side is breaking new ground in this argument.


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## Braden717 (Jun 16, 2018)

So they just released this.



My question is does this really change anyone’s opinion or is it kind of like feel good fan service? Some pretty heavy stuff in that discussion.


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## Frostbite (Jun 16, 2018)

Tim is a piece of shit. No one whose not brain dead can argue that. Regardless, if they put out music I like, I will listen to it. As I Lay Dying was one of the very first bands that got me into metal. I genuinely think people deserve second chances and if you guys don't feel that way, I completely understand. It's all opinions. If his wife had been killed this would obviously be a completely different conversation. I don't like looking at anything in life as purely black and white. I'll probably get someone trying to take a moral high ground with my opinion and I get that too. I can't help how I feel about the situation and how the music makes me feel.

One thing I will say is the amount of people just being super condescending on both sides doesn't do anything good. It doesn't further the conversation surrounding the issue. Like I said, nothing in life to me is black and white. Talking down to people on either side does nothing to further your point.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 16, 2018)

Braden717 said:


> So they just released this.
> 
> 
> 
> My question is does this really change anyone’s opinion or is it kind of like feel good fan service? Some pretty heavy stuff in that discussion.





I think this mainly is for those people who wanted answers, fans or not. Me personally and I said it earlier, these guys were friends for a long time. Sometimes, those kinds of relationships run deep but even you see here that they were most definitely holding him accountable for his actions. I highly doubt it changes anyone's opinions on here, because some are just determined and set in their ways. At this point with the way people are talking, you'd swear to God he was a kiddie fiddler.


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## Randy (Jun 16, 2018)

"I* have a dream* that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the *color of their skin*, but by the quality of their mouth sounds." - @PunkBillCarson maybe


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

Randy said:


> "I* have a dream* that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the *color of their skin*, but by the quality of their mouth sounds." - @PunkBillCarson maybe



Hey that's a nice quote! I think I might use that one day!


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 17, 2018)

Watched most of the video, on and off.

Seems like those guys took a really long time to forgive Tim. They had terminated all contact, dropped him from their lives, and were incredibly sceptical when Tim reappeared and made contact again.

They think he's changed. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, which is what I've been saying all along. If those people who were the MOST affected by his stupidity have forgiven him, I'm sure random forum-goers can lol


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## Demiurge (Jun 17, 2018)

I'd go as far as to say that, aside for the whole "Debt to Society" crap, there's really no entitlement-to-apology or obligation-to-apologize between this guy and listeners/forumites/whatever. That is, nobody here needs to think about forgiving him or not. Rather, it's just a matter of whether you like or dislike him for what he did and, if the latter, if that affects whether you'll listen to his music (or if you let the judgment make a difference at all). 

If enough people are put-off by his actions and the band doesn't do well, I can't see that as an injustice, though. There are some consequences of action that the legal system can neither deliver nor contain.


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## Zalbu (Jun 17, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Okay and what does that fact have to do with the people who enjoy the music he's making? That's the question I'm asking. I'm not denying my ears just because the person that made it is a shitbag. That's obviously how quite a few others feel as well.


Nobody's stopping you from financially supporting people who hire hitmen to kill their wives, if your moral compass isn't calibrated properly then there's obviously nothing the rest of us can do to change it, judging from your post. But you are aware that there's plenty of ways to listen to their music without going out of your way to give the band money, right?


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 17, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Nobody's stopping you from financially supporting people who hire hitmen to kill their wives, if your moral compass isn't calibrated properly then there's obviously nothing the rest of us can do to change it, judging from your post. But you are aware that there's plenty of ways to listen to their music without going out of your way to give the band money, right?



Fucking hell.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Nobody's stopping you from financially supporting people who hire hitmen to kill their wives, if your moral compass isn't calibrated properly then there's obviously nothing the rest of us can do to change it, judging from your post. But you are aware that there's plenty of ways to listen to their music without going out of your way to give the band money, right?




Yeah this is starting to feel like a personal attack on me. I'm not going to illegally download their album or something of the sort. If I like an album well enough, I'm going to buy it and until you can cease these thinly veiled attacks on my moral compass as you put it, I won't be engaging you any further.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 17, 2018)

I find it weird that people can't just let people live their lives. You don't support them, so continue to do so, you don't have to make other people feel like they're enabling murder by listening to music they enjoy. It doesn't make you look like the better person. It's no longer about Tim the convict, it's about Tim and the enabling fans who support murder, there's nothing special about this music that's worth everyone picking at each other and arguing over.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I find it weird that people can't just let people live their lives. You don't support them, so continue to do so, you don't have to make other people feel like they're enabling murder by listening to music they enjoy. It doesn't make you look like the better person. It's no longer about Tim the convict, it's about Tim and the enabling fans who support murder, there's nothing special about this music that's worth everyone picking at each other and arguing over.




Here's the thing... we're not supporting murder. If we funded a person's plan to go kill someone or gave them money to buy an AR-15 so they can commit terroristic acts with it, THAT would be supporting murder. If indeed Tim has changed, then technically, we supported a possible murder BEFORE he got caught. So really, we were the assholes LONG before any of this. LMFAO


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 17, 2018)

That's my point, labeling every person who goes out and buys their album an enabler is ludicrous. There are people who may not even know this was happening, and even those who do shouldn't be burdened with that when Tim is 1/5 of the band.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> That's my point, labeling every person who goes out and buys their album an enabler is ludicrous. There are people who may not even know this was happening, and even those who do shouldn't be burdened with that when Tim is 1/5 of the band.




For me, it's not just Tim's voice. I've always loved how they used clean vocals during the chorus, usually from the bass player, and of course I also like Sgrosso's and Hipa's work. Wovenwar, while good, doesn't scratch that itch for me. I've always had a soft spot for AILD. People can refer to it as mediocre or whatever, but for me, it's still music I enjoy.


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## feraledge (Jun 17, 2018)

@Jonathan20022 and @PunkBillCarson you guys just said “like supporting a murderer” and then made it a thing. 
It’s not even a “it’s like” thing, it is supporting a dude who tried to have his wife murdered and just hired the wrong hitman. He’s not like a piece of shit, he is one. Beyond allegorical. 
Anyways, same shit in this thread. But it’s hilarious to me that some people would be more okay with supporting Tim than Jeff Kiesel. He might be a douche bag, but, to my knowledge, he has only murdered or paid to have murdered quality tops. 
Is the difference that potential for personal wrong doing? Most likely, your Kiesel order would be fine and Tim won’t pay to have you killed, but the foot goes down easier on one than the other?
I’ve given up on people and bands for far less.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 17, 2018)

And it's your right to do so, but you're not going to convince anyone to not support a person or group by saying they enable and support murder. Like I said before, if we exposed the entire world and everyone's faults and history then I doubt anyone would feel comfortable supporting anyone. I couldn't care less about AILD, I haven't listened to them in years but I'm just not a fan of the attacks on people who are willing to still enjoy the music while separating the incident.

There's a 100 page thread about Kiesel warning potentials of real and existing customer issues, yet people still consistently order from them? So what good did that do.


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## KailM (Jun 17, 2018)

If I had to get rid of music in my collection on account of the artists having committed actual murder, I'd have a lot of albums I'd sorely miss. Doesn't mean I'd personally like the artists or support their causes or beliefs -- I just happen to like the music. I just watched "The King's Speech" the other night. Hell of a movie. But wait a minute-- that was a Harvey Weinstein production. I guess I just financially supported rape and sexual harassment.

I hope a lot of you in this thread have access to a tall ladder to step down from your high horses. Separate the art from the artists.

Furthermore, that discussion video taught me a lot about the situation. Dude really does seem remorseful and repentant. I can forgive someone who is truly remorseful -- it's part of my belief system.

At any rate, AILD had some good albums. Not really my cup of tea anymore. I mostly liked the riffs. And Tim is a more than decent vocalist. If I like what I hear on the new album, I'll buy it.


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## Hollowway (Jun 17, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Yeah this is starting to feel like a personal attack on me. I'm not going to illegally download their album or something of the sort. If I like an album well enough, I'm going to buy it and until you can cease these thinly veiled attacks on my moral compass as you put it, I won't be engaging you any further.



 The guy who says we shouldn’t judge someone for trying to kill his own wife now says illegally downloading music is wrong. Thanks for the laugh, dude!


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 17, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> The guy who says we shouldn’t judge someone for trying to kill his own wife now says illegally downloading music is wrong. Thanks for the laugh, dude!



It's almost as if things aren't black and white. Funny that.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

feraledge said:


> @Jonathan20022 and @PunkBillCarson you guys just said “like supporting a murderer” and then made it a thing.
> It’s not even a “it’s like” thing, it is supporting a dude who tried to have his wife murdered and just hired the wrong hitman. He’s not like a piece of shit, he is one. Beyond allegorical.
> Anyways, same shit in this thread. But it’s hilarious to me that some people would be more okay with supporting Tim than Jeff Kiesel. He might be a douche bag, but, to my knowledge, he has only murdered or paid to have murdered quality tops.
> Is the difference that potential for personal wrong doing? Most likely, your Kiesel order would be fine and Tim won’t pay to have you killed, but the foot goes down easier on one than the other?
> I’ve given up on people and bands for far less.




Actually it's more, once again, the fact that I still enjoy the music. I don't know why that's taking so long to get to some of you. I'd guess it's because we don't share the same musical tastes. I've even said that what Tim did is detestable, but it's almost like I enjoy Sgrosso's and Hipa's work in AILD. That's just nuts.

As far as Kiesel goes, well, I don't even know why you're using that as an example when referring to me being that a.) I don't even really know Jeff Kiesel or what he's done and b.) They're guitars are too expensive for me.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> The guy who says we shouldn’t judge someone for trying to kill his own wife now says illegally downloading music is wrong. Thanks for the laugh, dude!




Did I say you shouldn't judge him? No, I'm saying that I'm separating the music from the artist and that's what I'm going to continue to do. Thanks for the laugh, _DUDE!_ Also, I try to stay away from downloading music because I'm not all that tech savvy, but I know I don't want the possibility of viruses or having to pay much more for stealing it (because you know, it's still theft) than the standard price for a CD. I won't be engaging you further, either. It's clear there's a few in this thread that simply cannot handle a difference in opinion and will resort to personal attacks when things don't go their way. Sorry, not everyone believes the same as you.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

KailM said:


> If I had to get rid of music in my collection on account of the artists having committed actual murder, I'd have a lot of albums I'd sorely miss. Doesn't mean I'd personally like the artists or support their causes or beliefs -- I just happen to like the music. I just watched "The King's Speech" the other night. Hell of a movie. But wait a minute-- that was a Harvey Weinstein production. I guess I just financially supported rape and sexual harassment.
> 
> I hope a lot of you in this thread have access to a tall ladder to step down from your high horses. Separate the art from the artists.
> 
> ...




They'd really demonize me if they knew that one of my favorite movies is The Ref with Kevin Spacey and I say that he did really well in that movie.


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## feraledge (Jun 17, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> And it's your right to do so, but you're not going to convince anyone to not support a person or group by saying they enable and support murder


Yeah, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying he's a fucking asshole. Enabling him and his band is supporting him. Is that complicated? He's not a murderer, in fact, he wouldn't be if his plans went through, he's a psychopath. People can murder and truly regret what they've done and spend the rest of their lives working to make that as right as possible. He planned to have his wife killed and people want to hand him money just to stick it to people who think he's a fucking asshole. 
Not all that complicated.



Jonathan20022 said:


> There's a 100 page thread about Kiesel warning potentials of real and existing customer issues, yet people still consistently order from them? So what good did that do.


Yeah, you missed the point on that one. For example, there's a former Kiesel fanboy who couldn't seem to be shaken in that thread until something happened to them personally and it all clicked. I'm saying that if that same person were to continually argue against dealing with Jeff and then was in this thread saying people trashing the idea of supporting Tim were just shaming and wasting time, that'd be ironic wouldn't it. 
And I'm asking you specifically because that's you.



KailM said:


> I just watched "The King's Speech" the other night. Hell of a movie. But wait a minute-- that was a Harvey Weinstein production. I guess I just financially supported rape and sexual harassment.
> 
> I hope a lot of you in this thread have access to a tall ladder to step down from your high horses. Separate the art from the artists.


You know things can be different right? A producer isn't an artist, they're a financier. Did/does Weinstein make money off of people paying to see those movies? Yes, for now seems to be the case. Is that okay? No, he's scum. But the more this stuff comes out, the more it will further implicate a web of predatory actors and players in these industries. I think that's a question to figure out, but it's not like his vision and acting you're seeing when you watch those movies. 
You can't listen to AILD without Tim being right there. He's the vocalist. In that case, it is his art. 
But I can't separate the art from the artist. I can't enjoy seeing Kevin Spacey act, even though he was one of my favorite actors, because he raped young men and boys. I can't enjoy listening to Phobia knowing that Shane beat his partner. I can't enjoy Led Zeppelin knowing that Jimmy Page abducted a teenage girl as a sex slave. Or Mamas & Papas knowing that dude was drugging and raping his daughter. I loved the Cosby show when I was a kid, but it's not like any of this shit is THAT good that all the other stuff goes away. 
We each have our lines. It's impossible for me to see this is just about art and artist. Hitler might have been a fine painter, but he was a bigger Nazi. Same with Varg. I won't separate those lines, others will, but I don't get it. 
At the end of the day, that's what this is about. And people thinking they're "sticking it to the cucks" by financially supporting the "artists," regardless of what they've done: what's the merit other than fantastical reactionary shock? 
You want to listen to AILD, fine, the least anyone else can do is remind you that the guy is a fucking asshole. And to top it off, the band sucks. But if you're paying to watch a 2010 movie in 2018? Well, the joke's on you.


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## feraledge (Jun 17, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Actually it's more, once again, the fact that I still enjoy the music. I don't know why that's taking so long to get to some of you. I'd guess it's because we don't share the same musical tastes. I've even said that what Tim did is detestable, but it's almost like I enjoy Sgrosso's and Hipa's work in AILD. That's just nuts.


You stated that you'd dare not listen without buying the album. That's financial support. In this case, no question, AILD has always been awful to me. But I'd drop my favorite band just as quickly if I think their members had done something this fucked. 



PunkBillCarson said:


> As far as Kiesel goes, well, I don't even know why you're using that as an example when referring to me being that a.) I don't even really know Jeff Kiesel or what he's done and b.) They're guitars are too expensive for me.


That one was a bit more for @Jonathan20022


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

^Dude, no one thinks they're "sticking it to the cucks" just because they want to hear AILD's new music. No one is going to the store and saying "here's my 10 bucks, them fuckin' liberals gotta deal with it now, bwahahaha!" 

And people are calling the subject of this whole page crazy?


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## Hollowway (Jun 17, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Did I say you shouldn't judge him? No, I'm saying that I'm separating the music from the artist and that's what I'm going to continue to do. Thanks for the laugh, _DUDE!_ Also, I try to stay away from downloading music because I'm not all that tech savvy, but I know I don't want the possibility of viruses or having to pay much more for stealing it than the standard price for a CD. I won't be engaging you further, either. It's clear there's a few in this thread that simply cannot handle a difference in opinion and will resort to personal attacks when things don't go their way. Sorry, not everyone believes the same as you.



Well, that’s not what you said. Had you said, “I don’t know how to download the music,” rather than, “I’m not going to illegally download their album,” then it might not have sounded like you were passing judgement on people who would suggest that. And no one is personally attacking you, so don’t whine you’re going to take your toys and go home. Is it really that difficult for you to understand that you’re in the minority of people who think it’s ok to support an attempted murderer? That’s literally what this thread is. We’re debating it, and having a discussion. You’re in the minority. You’re going to have more people criticizing your viewpoint than agreeing with it. That should be logical, as most of the world treats attempted murderers as pariahs. But, we get into debates from time to time, like when sports stars are welcomed back to their team after rapes, murders, etc., and people support them. Or when our politicians do unsavory things. I mean, I supported Obama, and I wasn’t happy with the number of deportations he did, yet I voted for him for his second term. It’s not a clean situation, and it’s these sort of gray areas that lead us to debate and discussion. I think people are being quite civil with you, and don’t think your, “if it weren’t for the rules you’d be attacking me,” is a legitimate defense. If you believe in this, stand your ground and present your arguments. Don’t make every post, “stop attacking me, I feel different from you.” That’s not helping us see your side at all.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

feraledge said:


> You stated that you'd dare not listen without buying the album. That's financial support. In this case, no question, AILD has always been awful to me. But I'd drop my favorite band just as quickly if I think their members had done something this fucked.
> 
> 
> That one was a bit more for @Jonathan20022




Okay and why is what I do with my money your business? You can come up and say, "Tim tried to have his wife murdered, and you're still buying his album" and then I'm going to say "yes, and?"


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## bulb (Jun 17, 2018)

in my opinion it's totally fine to have dummy cabs, i don't know what you guys are all freaking out about, every band does it, too much stage sound otherwise!


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Jun 17, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Yeah, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying he's a fucking asshole. Enabling him and his band is supporting him. Is that complicated? He's not a murderer, in fact, he wouldn't be if his plans went through, he's a psychopath. People can murder and truly regret what they've done and spend the rest of their lives working to make that as right as possible. He planned to have his wife killed and people want to hand him money just to stick it to people who think he's a fucking asshole.
> Not all that complicated.



Seems pretty complicated from your post, apparently some crimes can't be repented for if they don't do the deed themselves? Murder can be repented, but solicitation of murder can't? Also, people aren't wanting to hand him money to stick it to people, they just want to listen to his bands music. Usually to do that it involves money exchanging hands.

As for the rest, it's fine you can't separate the art from the artist. Some people can, and want to. Or they feel he's showing genuine remorse and want to give him a chance to prove himself.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Well, that’s not what you said. Had you said, “I don’t know how to download the music,” rather than, “I’m not going to illegally download their album,” then it might not have sounded like you were passing judgement on people who would suggest that. And no one is personally attacking you, so don’t whine you’re going to take your toys and go home. Is it really that difficult for you to understand that you’re in the minority of people who think it’s ok to support an attempted murderer? That’s literally what this thread is. We’re debating it, and having a discussion. You’re in the minority. You’re going to have more people criticizing your viewpoint than agreeing with it. That should be logical, as most of the world treats attempted murderers as pariahs. But, we get into debates from time to time, like when sports stars are welcomed back to their team after rapes, murders, etc., and people support them. Or when our politicians do unsavory things. I mean, I supported Obama, and I wasn’t happy with the number of deportations he did, yet I voted for him for his second term. It’s not a clean situation, and it’s these sort of gray areas that lead us to debate and discussion. I think people are being quite civil with you, and don’t think your, “if it weren’t for the rules you’d be attacking me,” is a legitimate defense. If you believe in this, stand your ground and present your arguments. Don’t make every post, “stop attacking me, I feel different from you.” That’s not helping us see your side at all.




Actually that's not every one of my arguments. I'm trying to have this conversation civilly and I can feel some real tension on the other side. I'm also not taking my toys and going home. I'm right here, aren't I? There's not an answer I can give that's going to be satisfactory. I've said pretty much everything I need to say on the subject and yet it seems as if people want to believe there's far more to it. No. I guess I'm just an asshole that's supporting another asshole. If that's all there is to it, then what more can you bring to the discussion that I haven't already heard? I'm already laughing because of what was said about us having ulterior motives like "sticking it to the cucks." Once it starts sounding like a conspiracy, it's probably time to stop, because it's getting just as laughable and as crazy as the whole situation.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

bulb said:


> in my opinion it's totally fine to have dummy cabs, i don't know what you guys are all freaking out about, every band does it, too much stage sound otherwise!




Are those a thing anymore? I've been to a few shows in the last year or so and for the most part, if a band has one of the new modeling gadgets such as Kemper or Axe-FX, I really never see any cabs or dummy cabs on the stage. Also, thanks for breaking the tension there and giving a good laugh. It was pretty unexpected.


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## bulb (Jun 17, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Are those a thing anymore? I've been to a few shows in the last year or so and for the most part, if a band has one of the new modeling gadgets such as Kemper or Axe-FX, I really never see any cabs or dummy cabs on the stage. Also, thanks for breaking the tension there and giving a good laugh. It was pretty unexpected.



You are welcome, also I'm making a good point here, that much stage sound would really murder your eardrums, how are you supposed to have a killer set if you are deaf just from playing your hit, man?


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 17, 2018)

bulb said:


> You are welcome, also I'm making a good point here, that much stage sound would really murder your eardrums, how are you supposed to have a killer set if you are deaf just from playing your hit, man?




That's a very good point. I tend to have quite sensitive ears to various frequencies so, I don't think I could ever be that close to my own rig while onstage. Hell, an Avatar 2x12 with a Swamp Thang/Governor on four in a bedroom that's being ran by a 6505+ is bad enough. I'm sure if your sig amp is anything like the amp it's modeled after, it probably gets pretty damn loud and quick, yeah?


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## Hollowway (Jun 17, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Actually that's not every one of my arguments. I'm trying to have this conversation civilly and I can feel some real tension on the other side. I'm also not taking my toys and going home. I'm right here, aren't I? There's not an answer I can give that's going to be satisfactory. I've said pretty much everything I need to say on the subject and yet it seems as if people want to believe there's far more to it. No. I guess I'm just an asshole that's supporting another asshole. If that's all there is to it, then what more can you bring to the discussion that I haven't already heard? I'm already laughing because of what was said about us having ulterior motives like "sticking it to the cucks." Once it starts sounding like a conspiracy, it's probably time to stop, because it's getting just as laughable and as crazy as the whole situation.



Eh, I wouldn’t be so sure others can’t begin to see things through your eyes. I have a few friends that are of the same mind you are. I can’t speak for everyone, but just because I argue doesn’t mean I’m not open to being convinced otherwise. Or at least, learn to see it differently. Morality and ethics issues are sticky, but for most of us they don’t hit close enough to home to have any real debate. This one does, and I think it’s really interesting to see it play out. I think much of how we feel on this is not based on logic but emotion, and that’s the part that interests me, because to a certain extent I just cannot fathom how anyone could feel different from me. But at the same time I know that I’m sitting in your position on other issues, and cannot figure out why others can’t see my viewpoint.


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## bulb (Jun 18, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> That's a very good point. I tend to have quite sensitive ears to various frequencies so, I don't think I could ever be that close to my own rig while onstage. Hell, an Avatar 2x12 with a Swamp Thang/Governor on four in a bedroom that's being ran by a 6505+ is bad enough. I'm sure if your sig amp is anything like the amp it's modeled after, it probably gets pretty damn loud and quick, yeah?



Ah the amp makes a lot of other amps seem like a joke, those features are so plentiful that you definitely need someone to go over your head if you own one. At full blast it's probably louder than a potential gunshot.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 18, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Eh, I wouldn’t be so sure others can’t begin to see things through your eyes. I have a few friends that are of the same mind you are. I can’t speak for everyone, but just because I argue doesn’t mean I’m not open to being convinced otherwise. Or at least, learn to see it differently. Morality and ethics issues are sticky, but for most of us they don’t hit close enough to home to have any real debate. This one does, and I think it’s really interesting to see it play out. I think much of how we feel on this is not based on logic but emotion, and that’s the part that interests me, because to a certain extent I just cannot fathom how anyone could feel different from me. But at the same time I know that I’m sitting in your position on other issues, and cannot figure out why others can’t see my viewpoint.




Well... Now that you've put it that way, it does make me come off as a bit short-sighted. I will say that a lot of what I'm saying on the topic does come from emotion, but only because I believe that people can be redeemed. That doesn't come from any religious beliefs or anything like that, it's just that in my own personal life, I've known people who did some atrocious things only to go and turn their lives around. Now, I know what you're thinking in that anecdotes aren't evidence and I'm not presenting it as evidence. I just know that people can change, and whether he has or not time will only tell. I do believe in second chances. Obviously, not everyone feels the same and that's fine. But I'm not going to carry on just condemning him just to make a point. What he did was as he himself said was indefensible. It's atrocious. It's disgusting. At the end of the day, though, I have ears and I know what they like and Tim's personal life is none of my business. I say that, but even if the music sucked, I would still hope that he would have changed for the better for himself and those around him.


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## feraledge (Jun 18, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Can't wait till the album hits. I'll buy my copy gladly.





PunkBillCarson said:


> ^Dude, no one thinks they're "sticking it to the cucks" just because they want to hear AILD's new music. No one is going to the store and saying "here's my 10 bucks, them fuckin' liberals gotta deal with it now, bwahahaha!"
> 
> And people are calling the subject of this whole page crazy?





PunkBillCarson said:


> Okay and why is what I do with my money your business? You can come up and say, "Tim tried to have his wife murdered, and you're still buying his album" and then I'm going to say "yes, and?"


One of these is not like the others.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 18, 2018)

Really? Seem all the same to me.


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## feraledge (Jun 18, 2018)

OliOliver said:


> Seems pretty complicated from your post, apparently some crimes can't be repented for if they don't do the deed themselves? Murder can be repented, but solicitation of murder can't? Also, people aren't wanting to hand him money to stick it to people, they just want to listen to his bands music. Usually to do that it involves money exchanging hands.
> 
> As for the rest, it's fine you can't separate the art from the artist. Some people can, and want to. Or they feel he's showing genuine remorse and want to give him a chance to prove himself.


It's exceptionally complicated. I don't see things as moral or immoral on word alone, it's case-by-case. You can kill someone in self defense and be a murderer. You can be Charles Manson and not have killed anyone yourself. Categorically, these things get complicated, which is why it matters that this is cut and dry: he tried to have his wife murdered by a paid party so that he didn't have to share his money. 
That's planned, meticulous, and worse because he wanted to keep his hands clean. 
If his wife was a fascist that was going to kill a bunch of people, it'd be another matter altogether. I'd be fine with that. But no, he was going to have his former loved one killed because he didn't want to share his money. That's exceptionally indicative of who he is and, as was pointed out earlier, he kept on trying to play the victim while he was in prison. 
Now he's miraculously trying to move on when it's legally permissible to get his old life back? It's not that the situation is categorically irredeemable, it's just that the particulars of this situation show that it's highly unlikely that this was really out of character for him nor that he should get that second chance. I'm not trying to write law or moral code, I'm saying fuck THIS dude. And I think fans of AILD are more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt than they'd give other people in far less damning and telling circumstances. 
How does he prove himself? Write some lyrics? Go to church? Pray? I don't buy any of it. I think the dude's fucked up and people are all too willing to put him right back up on the pedestal where he ordered the death of his wife. Will he do it again? No way. Does that mean he's learned anything? Yeah, that his fans will set aside all reasonable doubt for him. I find that disturbing. 
But yes, there are plenty of people who will see buying this album as a way to stick it to the "moralists" who refuse to support him. Not saying that's even on the minds of many, but they're out there.


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## feraledge (Jun 18, 2018)

feraledge said:


> At the end of the day, that's what this is about. And people thinking they're "sticking it to the cucks" by financially supporting the "artists," regardless of what they've done: what's the merit other than fantastical reactionary shock?


Please show me where I say @PunkBillCarson here? 
It's a dramatization for most of this thread, but I made the mistake of reading MS comments on this one. I see echoes of that even if the language isn't as shock-driven, I'm not saying this is what everyone who is buying the album thinks or is saying. 



PunkBillCarson said:


> Really? Seem all the same to me.


1) Gladly: you know the background and you're not just fine giving the dude cash, you're happy to do so. 
2) No one would be out to shock people by buying the album: then what is your point? Because you're not just buying the album, you're loudly defending your right to (which no one is contesting) and indignant about the fact that you don't care about what he's done. So, that's not provocation? Might not be the same level of shock and awe, but if you get why people aren't buying the album and saying you'll gladly pay for it in light of that, then what? 
3) It's my money!: cool. See above.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 18, 2018)

Yeah you're looking far too much into it. When I say gladly, I mean that as in if the rest of the album sounds like what I heard just last week, I'll gladly buy it. Also, I still firmly believe that little to no one is going to be out there saying "fuck all them Tim haters, I'm buying this shit, probably won't even enjoy it, but fuck them fuckers on SSO!" I'm defending my right to separate art from artist. You... You're doing something entirely different and you're clearly not interpreting anything I'm saying correctly. It wouldn't matter what I say at this point, you're determined and ready with a sledgehammer to try and and tear it down to find something you can use to fit your argument. It's not even about Tim at this point anymore on your end I feel, I think you're just arguing to try and make a point to yourself and everyone else. As far as your statement about "sticking it to the cucks" I felt I had to point that out regardless because even if it didn't have my name in it, it's laughable enough that it had to be addressed and it has, not only by me. This doesn't feel like an argument any longer, this feels like I'm addressing satire.


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## feraledge (Jun 18, 2018)

@PunkBillCarson Cool. 
The world isn't SSO. Just an FYI.


Sorry, the one of many comments I found in a second didn't have "cuck" in it.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 18, 2018)

feraledge said:


> @PunkBillCarson Cool.
> The world isn't SSO. Just an FYI.
> View attachment 62097
> 
> Sorry, the one of many comments I found in a second didn't have "cuck" in it.




Wow... So you found an idiot. Good job. Who's to say that's not your own account? Joking there, but still. He's just that, an idiot.


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## feraledge (Jun 18, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Wow... So you found an idiot. Good job. Who's to say that's not your own account? Joking there, but still. He's just that, an idiot.


There's a lot of idiots on this here internet. Don't underestimate them, one is president.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 18, 2018)

feraledge said:


> There's a lot of idiots on this here internet. Don't underestimate them, one is president.




Ugh... Don't remind me of THAT idiot.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 18, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Yeah, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying he's a fucking asshole. Enabling him and his band is supporting him. Is that complicated? He's not a murderer, in fact, he wouldn't be if his plans went through, he's a psychopath. People can murder and truly regret what they've done and spend the rest of their lives working to make that as right as possible. He planned to have his wife killed and people want to hand him money just to stick it to people who think he's a fucking asshole.
> Not all that complicated.



It's not complicated, and in fact I'd argue 80% of AiLD's fanbase now knows the vocalist of the band they're listening to hired someone to kill his wife. What you're outlining is your own line in the sand that follows your own personal moral compass, you stay away from the work of people who have done terrible things. Here's the kicker, other people draw this line in other places and other people don't care, you can't seem to understand it because other people CAN separate the artist from the art. It's a difference of opinion, reading your comments on the next page you're outlining a hypothetical where if his wife had been some cold blooded psychopath that was plotting to take other lives, and in this case he would have been justified?



feraledge said:


> I won't separate those lines, others will, but I don't get it.
> At the end of the day, that's what this is about. And people thinking they're "sticking it to the cucks" by financially supporting the "artists," regardless of what they've done: what's the merit other than fantastical reactionary shock?
> You want to listen to AILD, fine, the least anyone else can do is remind you that the guy is a fucking asshole. And to top it off, the band sucks. But if you're paying to watch a 2010 movie in 2018? Well, the joke's on you.



This is really annoying to read, because no one is being this obnoxious and provocative in this discussion unless a mod already took them out of it.

Here's my line in the sand, no one has the RIGHT to take another person's life, period. No shit Tim is a piece of shit for doing what he did, but like I said this band is more than just Tim and some people can see it that way. Neither party is wrong for their viewpoint on the art they're considering abandoning or listening to. You're illustrating some kind of narcissistic person who wants to stick it to a group of people by supporting this band and then you screencapped some idiot typing some drivel out to get a reaction from other people. I'd like to think in this community at least we have a small percentage of trolls who are trying to piss other people off to get a reaction out of them. If they are they're usually ridiculed and taken out of here. That guy you screencapped doesn't speak for nor represent the collective group of people that willingly will continue to listen and buy the album, you can't find a single example and act like anyone in this thread is some kind of boogeyman trying to piss you off because you feel that it's wrong to support this band.

You seem to miss the point of what I'm saying as well, painting the other side of the argument as these ignorant people who want to get a reaction out of people like you and me isn't going to convince them otherwise. My whole point is that maybe a whole other approach is better than belittling people who are willingly having discussion on a discussion forum, no one wins.



feraledge said:


> Yeah, you missed the point on that one. For example, there's a former Kiesel fanboy who couldn't seem to be shaken in that thread until something happened to them personally and it all clicked. I'm saying that if that same person were to continually argue against dealing with Jeff and then was in this thread saying people trashing the idea of supporting Tim were just shaming and wasting time, that'd be ironic wouldn't it.
> And I'm asking you specifically because that's you.



The irony behind you bringing that brand up when I'm talking isn't lost on me, but I'm tired of bringing it up. Yes I was a huge fan, and when I was wronged I stopped supporting them and vocally expressed my distaste over the brand. But like you outlined how different the crimes of those artists you mentioned were, it's also not so black and white when you try to bring something in my past up because they're not proportional.

I was ripped off and took my own measures to get my money back when I was treated like garbage out of nowhere. You were not wronged by Tim Lambesis personally and other than mental distress thinking about how fucked up what he did was, it had no other effect on you. The only things he hurt was his family, his bandmates, and his own future. Now take a moment, avid fans of the band who were not personally hurt by his actions, a select group of people that can still enjoy something regardless of the nature of the artist exists (Something you mentioned you can't grasp because your own moral compass keeps your desire to listen to something at bay to prevent supporting the artist). Those people were not personally affected and either don't care, or are huge fans of the band and can get over it.

If you want to relate this to my situation, it'd be like Jeff Kiesel fucking over my best friend on a guitar and I call Jeff the next day and cut him a check for a new build regardless of my friend's personal feelings. You once again missed the point in what I said, if you told me "You're a fucking idiot you're going to literally get ripped off by Jeff and treated badly when you complain eventually", I would have never believed you and rightfully so why should I believe someone calling me a fucking idiot or coming off so aggressive?

You weren't involved in the crime, it's victims or just about anything relating to the situation and neither was anyone else except those I described. So if you care, you stop listening to them, and if you don't care you keep on doing what you would normally do. Your approach is extremely harsh and it doesn't convince the other party to stop supporting someone they would otherwise support. It just sprouts this resentment and "I'm going to do it just to spite you" kind of attitude, maybe try pointing less fingers and describe WHY you think supporting an act is wrong from your point of view from the get go, and you may just make someone realize what your personal take on it is. Then realize you don't have to chastise or demonize that person if they disagree, they have every right to their opinion and choice.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 18, 2018)

Wow, I actually agree with feraledge's comments 100%. Lamewhatever his name is sucks as a vocalist, the band is garbage, the members value cash more than principals, and to top it off, people just shrug their shoulders and go "Eh, whatever, we differentiate between the 'art' and the 'artist'."

What a farce.

EDIT: The new songs boring and they've grown literally zero since the garbage they were putting out 9 years ago. Better check the sell by date; I think this shit is getting a little ripe and it's time to throw it out.


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## Zalbu (Jun 18, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Yeah this is starting to feel like a personal attack on me. I'm not going to illegally download their album or something of the sort. If I like an album well enough, I'm going to buy it and until you can cease these thinly veiled attacks on my moral compass as you put it, I won't be engaging you any further.


It's not exactly thinly veiled, if you willingly and happily financially support people who hire hitmen to kill their wives when there are plenty of options available where you don't have to give the band your money to listen to their music, then you are a bad person.


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## Edika (Jun 18, 2018)

Having watched the video it's obvious there's quite a lot of emotional charge still there. I can't help but notice the body language of Tim vs the rest of the members and I'm not trying to put do pop psychology. Everyone else is looking down, aside from Nick that also looks quite focused though, and it seems they still have a lot to process and kind of not wanting to be there. It is a difficult ,emotionally, situation for them and feel that they have quite a bit of way to go. Tim seems however to be in a great mood, he managed to make amends with his former bamdmates and friends and his pose and stance show confidence and excitment that things are going well. He is obviously quite happy and content the other members gave him a chance to get back into their lives and try to make amends.

I'm not going to make any cynical or encouraging comments about the situation but we'll just have to wait and see. I just was a bit put off byt the difference in stance of Tim vs the others initially and by the fact the did a teaser and out a song first before doing this video. I think it should have been the other way around.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 18, 2018)

I haven’t read the thread, but I infer from the fact that Labreasta has resumed marketing the brand he sunk in _any_ capacity that he feels entitled to forgiveness from strangers - Which lends credence to his claim that he’s legitimately Christian, this time.

Considering that’s the demographic he’s resumed pandering to, perhaps he really has given up turning the other cheek for steroids, in favor of goatse-ing for your prayers. And that should count for something to those whose off-the-shelf morals dictate there’s virtue in such public displays of self-aggrandizing gibberish.

What the hell - I forgive the guy for whatever he did that has no bearing on my life...But I won’t forgive him for the music I’ve heard.


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## beerandbeards (Jun 18, 2018)

I’ve always said “Don’t talk about politics, religion, sports or music if you want to make friends”


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## SDMFVan (Jun 18, 2018)

The real tragedy is everyone missing @bulb 's excellent hitman puns.


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## MFB (Jun 18, 2018)

SDMFVan said:


> The real tragedy is everyone missing @bulb 's excellent hitman puns.



They really missed their mark huh? Sounds like Lambesis's hitman alright.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 18, 2018)

Aside all the asshurt throughout this thread, why do majority of those who keep saying”blah blah tried to hire for murder”, “blah your moral compass”, “blah blah blah”, Keep coming back to this thread to try and preach their morals to other people who simply enjoy the music? Why not just stop trying to be keyboard lawyers and moral preachers and stop posting in the thread if you don’t like Tim Lambesis? If anything, you just keep giving the dude more and more attention.

And I’ll probably get sh!t from fellow forum goers here for not going with the “condemn him for what he did” opinion; sure maybe he doesn’t deserve to be forgiven, maybe he does, just depends on how PC you are and your so called morals. I don’t give a shit about the guy but I like the music. So what fcuking sue me


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## bulb (Jun 18, 2018)

SDMFVan said:


> The real tragedy is everyone missing @bulb 's excellent hitman puns.


Thank you, I spent a good 1 minute(s) on those


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jun 18, 2018)

BusinessMan said:


> And I’ll probably get sh!t from fellow forum goers here for not going with the “condemn him for what he did” opinion; sure maybe he doesn’t deserve to be forgiven, maybe he does, just depends on how PC you are and your so called morals. I don’t give a shit about the guy but I like the music. So what fcuking sue me


This has nothing to do with being "PC". This is 100% a moral issue, most people would choose to not support someone who tried to have their wife killed (shocker I know) because murder or attempted murder is morally reprehensible and should be looked down on by everyone because, ya know, its bad. I managed to find Burzum before I knew how much of a sack of shit Varg was and was conflicted once I found out, do I choose to support a white supremacist murderer or just accept that I like the music but can't continue to listen to it because of what he's done? I chose the second option because why would I want to support someone like that? A crime like attempted murder/murder _should _outweigh the value of their art. I'm not here to tell anyone what to do though.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 18, 2018)

Someone insinuating I look down at Tim's bullshit because of how PC I am...







Gimme a fuckin' break.


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## Zalbu (Jun 18, 2018)

Yeah, _not _liking somebody who tries to hire a hitman to kill his wife is the unreasonable standpoint to take here, just because the guy has made music that some people like.


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## ExileMetal (Jun 18, 2018)

The real question is, in 2020, will Tim Lambesis or Donald Trump be president?


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## Smoked Porter (Jun 18, 2018)

^My issue isn't with with anyone not liking and judging Lambesis. That's fair game. It's posts like this one you wrote earlier that I find annoying, and I'm saying this as someone who would probably be a little uncomfortable with paying for a new album or a show they're on.



Zalbu said:


> It's not exactly thinly veiled, if you willingly and happily financially support people who hire hitmen to kill their wives when there are plenty of options available where you don't have to give the band your money to listen to their music, then you are a bad person.


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## JustinRhoads1980 (Jun 18, 2018)

Personally I can understand why people are giving him shit and all, but he served his time for his crime and was punished through the law. Whether or not you support him or not is an individual thing. Personally I think it was a guy who was in a bad place and ended up making some bad decisions that cost him in the end.


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## Demiurge (Jun 18, 2018)

BusinessMan said:


> Why not just stop trying to be keyboard lawyers and moral preachers and stop posting in the thread if you don’t like Tim Lambesis? If anything, you just keep giving the dude more and more attention.



Hey, you're a business man so you can appreciate that this controversy is the only sizzle that's gonna sell this steak.

For me, I've turned around on this topic. People complain about metal being all nerdy & docile nowadays, but now we've got people being all kewl with guys straight up [attempting] murderin' again. Ooh, was this what it was like in Norway in the early 90's?! So KVLT!


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## jwade (Jun 18, 2018)

I think it would be an entirely different thing had Tim not spent the entire time he was under trial/imprisoned being an obnoxiously selfish/delusional/entitled conman. Everything that has happened with this dude has been surrounded by his ‘poor me’ attitude, and it’s very difficult to believe that he is A) rehabilitated and B) sincere in his apologies.


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## feraledge (Jun 18, 2018)

ExileMetal said:


> The real question is, in 2020, will Tim Lambesis or Donald Trump be president?


Definitely would have to be one or the other since Trump has famously proclaimed that he prefers people who don’t get caught. I’m sure Tim agrees though. He would’ve gotten away with it too if it weren’t for you damn kids!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 18, 2018)

jwade said:


> I think it would be an entirely different thing had Tim not spent the entire time he was under trial/imprisoned being an obnoxiously selfish/delusional/entitled conman. Everything that has happened with this dude has been surrounded by his ‘poor me’ attitude, and it’s very difficult to believe that he is A) rehabilitated and B) sincere in his apologies.


He's only sorry he got caught. The dude is a total scumbag.


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## Necris (Jun 18, 2018)

He certainly didn't use his time in prison to improve as a writer. Those lyrics.


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## Randy (Jun 18, 2018)

I've always found something counterintuitive about sending people to jail for inflicting violence on others (or in Lambesis' case, trying to pay someone to) and then giving them years to do nothing but lift weights, fight and think about the person who got them there.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 19, 2018)

Randy said:


> I've always found something counterintuitive about sending people to jail for inflicting violence on others (or in Lambesis' case, trying to pay someone to) and then giving them years to do nothing but lift weights, fight and think about the person who got them there.


I agree. They should be given a small fine and left on the streets.


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## feraledge (Jun 19, 2018)

Necris said:


> He certainly didn't use his time in prison to improve as a writer. Those lyrics.


"Mandatory minimum"


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## Vyn (Jun 19, 2018)

Necris said:


> He certainly didn't use his time in prison to improve as a writer. Those lyrics.



I will shamefully admit that they appeal to the angst-ridden-as-fuck teenager in me who used to listen to AILD back in 07. Taken straight back to Halo 2 LANS, burger rings and waaaaay too much coca cola haha.


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