# Standard tuning vs fourths



## ferret (May 10, 2013)

Please excuse me if I use music theory terms incorrectly.

I've been spending my short practices (30-50 minutes a day generally) the last couple of months learning my basic scales and modes. I've been taking it slowly, such as a few days on ionian, few days on aeolian, etc. Trying not to clobber too much info together at once and have the patterns right.

Last night I started on phrygian, before I started playing around with power chord variations after I read some article yesterday. It had never occurred to me to play other power chord forms, just the standard R-5-R. So I started playing three string variations of R-4-R, R-5-7, etc, and having some fun with it, as well as working on running up and down phrygian.

Anyways, by the end of it, I was really pondering turning away from standard and to all fourths, so that the scales would... er... line up.

What are general thoughts on this, especially as might matter to a novice/moderate player? My understand is that E Standard (With major 3rd between 2nd and 3rd string) is mainly to facilitate chord forms. With my current limited music theory, it seems to me that if I go to all fourths, my chords are limited to 4 strings if I keep to simple finger positions, but my scales will seem more natural and not require a shift upwards at the 2nd string.

Bare with the noob please


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## TravisWright (May 10, 2013)

ferret said:


> Please excuse me if I use music theory terms incorrectly.
> 
> I've been spending my short practices (30-50 minutes a day generally) the last couple of months learning my basic scales and modes. I've been taking it slowly, such as a few days on ionian, few days on aeolian, etc. Trying not to clobber too much info together at once and have the patterns right.
> 
> ...



There are no rules. You can DO this. Should you? That's up to you. But know that if you do, your guitar now is only limited to that sound, tonally you will be altering the sounds as well when you play with others in standard, and you should readjust the neck as the tension difference will bend the neck. 

I've heard it said, that if you play songs in drop D... you SHOULD have just a drop D guitar and the neck adjusted accordingly. If you play an open G tuning.. have a guitar devoted to just that. Sure, it's extreme... but technically, changing tunings all the time on a guitar isn't the best for the neck and before you start messing with the scale patterns for fingering sake, consider how all the rest of the chords you play and tones you now are open and limited to come into play. 

Explore for sure, but it helps to know the rules before you break them.


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## All_¥our_Bass (May 10, 2013)

I tune my 7 and 8 in fourths, it's quite nice for the very reasons you listed, scalar runs and chords are the same everywhere.

I started on bass so using all fourths was normal for me, and I found that major third in standard tuning troublesome.

I have a 6 in fifths as well and want to try out major thirds tuning.

I love symmetrical (using only one interval) tunings, since you can use the same fingering for the same thing anywhere on the neck.


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## erotophonophilia (May 10, 2013)

ferret said:


> What are general thoughts on this, especially as might matter to a novice/moderate player? My understand is that E Standard (With major 3rd between 2nd and 3rd string) is mainly to facilitate chord forms.



Yes. 

Think of it like this:
Opening tunings: make playing chords, quickly and easily. Makes playing scales harder.
Tuning a guitar to an interval: makes playing scales and runs easily and quickly. Can make playing basic chord shapes more difficult.
Standard tuning: the middle ground between the two. You can play scales more easily, than using an open tuning. And makes playing chords easier, than using an interval tuning.


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## Daf57 (May 10, 2013)

I have tuned in 4ths for 15+ years now, it's become second nature to me. IMO it makes more sense and mimics the piano which was my first instrument. You will have to relearn your chord forms, and they are certainly NOT limited to 4 strings, but once you do those forms are the same all over the fretboard. Open strings can be integral components of any chord - I often come up with 7 string chords. 

Playing with others is not an issue if you know where the notes and chords are. 

Like others have mentioned - there are a lot of different tuning options out there. Have fun with them and make some good music!!


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## ferret (May 10, 2013)

I tuned my beat up Squire to all fourths when I got home to give it a whirl. It feels... natural. Yeah, I have to adjust my forms if I want to use 5 or 6 string chords, sure. But now I can play chords on the fourth string in the same form as 5th or 6th. (Or 7th!)

And still playing around with various "3 string" power chord type forms too. Having a strangely high amount of fun finding the variation I can use with just three strings. And I can use those same forms on the third string now.

Even pentonic minor, which I've known for over a decade, the only scale I learned as a teenager, feels more natural to me, which doesn't quite make sense as it already "lined up", if you will. I think my hand just feels better shifting the bottom two strings up a fret compared E standard.

Going to keep exploring this path and seeing where it takes me.


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## Kiefer (May 10, 2013)

erotophonophilia said:


> Yes.
> 
> Think of it like this:
> Opening tunings: make playing chords, quickly and easily. Makes playing scales harder.
> ...



Perhaps you were thinking of fourths- and fifths-based regular-interval tunings, and not of thirds-based tunings (which are likely less popular)? 

Fourths- and thirds-based regular-interval tunings appeal to beginners and jazz guitarists, I think. 

Chords and especially scales are dramatically simplified in major-thirds tuning (an interval tuning):
Major thirds tuning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chords:
Trying to play a seventh chord is almost impossible in standard/all-fourths tuning without inversions or dropping notes, and it is easy in major-thirds tuning. Inversions and drop notes are easier in M3 tuning also, since you don't need to change frets; in M3 tuning, inversions and drop notes are used for melodic reasons, not because playing the canonical sevenths chords (e.g., C7 C-E-G-Bb) requires excessive stretching.

Scales:
In M3 tuning, you play the chromatic scale on 4 consecutive frets on 3 consecutive strings (plus one note on an adjacent string of course). If you've had a hand injury, the ergonomic advantage may be important. (You can cover 12 frets in three hand-positions, in which the notes fall consistently to the same fingers.)

Open tunings: 
The Russian guitar's open-G tuning and the English guitar's open-C tuning are repetitive, and their chords are no more difficult (or even easier imho) than in standard tuning/all-fourths tuning. Consider the English guitar's tuning C-E-G-C-E-G or the Russian guitar's D-G-B-D-G-B-D.
Russian guitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
These tunings should also appeal to folk and classical guitarists. (They are also closely approximated by M3 tunings.)

Sound:
I admit that I prefer the resonance of an open tuning or of Robert Fripp's New Standard Tuning over standard or all-fourths or M3 tuning. I've not heard anybody complain about the resonance of M3 tuning. (I tried tritone tuning, and my guitar sounded dead.)

-Kiefer


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## erotophonophilia (May 10, 2013)

Kiefer said:


> Perhaps you were thinking of fourths- and fifths-based regular-interval tunings, and not of thirds-based tunings (which are likely less popular)?
> 
> Fourths- and thirds-based regular-interval tunings appeal to beginners and jazz guitarists, I think.
> 
> ...



Yes. I was making a broad generalization about fourths and fifths tunings. And I played both tunings on a jazz player's Hagstroms...


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## ncfiala (May 10, 2013)

I switched to all fourths a while ago and I've never looked back. The only thing you really lose is bar voicings of some chords and I never play those types of voicings anyway. 6 and 7 string chords don't sound great on an electric guitar with a lot of gain anyway.

Another cool thing about all fourths is that if you tune BEADGCF, then the open strings are precisely the notes of C major (or A minor). So if you're playing in one of those two keys you can throw in any open string anytime and still be in key.


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## Daf57 (May 11, 2013)

ncfiala said:


> So if you're playing in one of those two keys you can throw in any open string anytime and still be in key.



True but you are only thinking "root" - Lets just stay with the open "A" and "C" for a moment. They are also the 3rd (chord structure) for F# and A (respectively) ... F#AC# and ACE. And the 5th for D and F. Those open notes can also be other elements in other chords. This is always the case regardless of tunings. 

It is fun to experiment - congrats for doing so!


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## ElRay (May 16, 2013)

All_¥our_Bass;3550229 said:


> I have a 6 in fifths as well and want to try out major thirds tuning.



I had my old Dean 7-string tuned in M3rds while I was in Afghanistan. I loved it. Unfortunately, it wasn't the best for Me, Myself & I playing. Also, right now, I don't have any "extra" guitars, so I have to keep the top four strings in Standard Tuning for working with my daughter's lessons. When I can, I'll get an 8-string and tune it C-E-Ab-C-E-Ab-C-E

I'm hoping to get caught-up on the household projects and build the fanned 6-string I've been planning, that one will start in all 5ths: F-C-G-D-A-E, but may have to go: C-G-D-A-E-G if the pick-ups/gear I have can't handle the low F.

Ray


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## ElRay (May 16, 2013)

QFT:



Kiefer said:


> Chords and especially scales are dramatically simplified in major-thirds tuning (an interval tuning):
> Major thirds tuning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Chords:
> ...




I've added the "3rds Tuning" tag. There's a bunch more threads here about it.

I'm anxiously awaiting when I can get back to it. If you like dense, piano-like chords, it's great.

Ray


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## Durero (May 16, 2013)

Another all-4ths player here.

Been using it for > 10 years and love the neutrality of it and how easy it is to switch between guitars & basses with any number of strings.


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## Kiefer (Feb 9, 2014)

ElRay said:


> QFT:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am considering switching from all major-thirds tuning to all perfect-fourths tuning. In M3 tuning, my inversions of seventh-chords all feature close (7th,Root) pairs, which I dislike. In P4 tuning, all inversions avoid such discordant (7th,Root) pairs, and the chords sound better with a bit of space. 

I considered 7ths in new standard tuning (C-G-D-A-E-G) of Robert Fripp, which uses perfect-fifth intervals (with the E-G minor third). Root-position 7th-chords and all inversions sound beautiful, perhaps even better than sevenths in all perfect-fourths tuning. However, the chord-voicings are so open (spread out) that they would crowd out bass and melody lines, at least for conventional music. 

(Confession: I hesitated to try all perfect-fourths tuning because it failed the Ben & Jerry's test for new flavors---"Is it weird enough?"!)


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## octatoan (Mar 1, 2015)

Kiefer: Did you do it?


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## PunchLine (Mar 3, 2015)

I'll give it a shot...


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## octatoan (Mar 3, 2015)

I currently am. It calms my, uh, left brain.


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## wizbit81 (Mar 3, 2015)

I found this thread very interesting and inspiring, and it's given me a good reason not to sell any guitars. I clearly need one in each tuning, as there are cool sounds and inspirational things in all. When I move back to the UK that's going to be something I do fairly quickly!


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