# What's going with ESP?



## behemoth4ever (Aug 22, 2017)

Hi guys first post here! Hope this is allowed. I just wanted to have some discussion about my favorite guitar company ESP. Although it is possible that i'm the only one in the world that cares about this atm 

Does anyone else feel like ESP is in a pretty bad place right now? I've been playing them for the last probably 7 years (plus some Fender/PRS) and I can't remember the last time their website (espguitars.com) had such a sorry offering of guitars.

I remember when they had the Standard Series export models and on the espguitars.co.jp/oversea page there would be like a billion models to choose from at that reasonable "LTD on steroids" price range. There would be at least two or more models of every shape they had and in a variety of color/top options. IIRC on the USA side of things they had a similar thing going but with less models. Anyway, still cool. 

Now.. they have the E-II stuff (don't get me started on the branding decision they made here..the fuck?) where you can't even get a 7-string Eclipse. No 7-string Viper or V either. No EX shape at all, let alone a EX 7-string. The only 7-string Horizon you can get is in black or satin black. In fact, anything you look at ever is gonna be in black or satin black. The USA Eclipse horn is now on every single Eclipse ever. 

ESP USA is pretty awesome tbh (and pricey of course). But then you realize there's no Horizon option at all. Just a million versions of the M, which is probably the shape with most over-saturated market in the world. Why would I bother with this if I can get a Tom Anderson, Suhr, etc with the same amount of money? It's not like the Eclipse -- the Eclipse is functionally different to a traditional LP, and looks just enough different to the extent where someone could go 'yeah, this looks cooler to me'. The M on the other hand is just a plain ol' superstrat. So.. why? The Horizon for one has always been ESP's calling card since back in the day. ESP is doing a really bad job of standing out in the market with ESP USA in my opinion. 

Onto LTDs and the signature range. I can see that ESP is focusing on their signature range. This is a good decision. Head's new signature is sick. Ben Savage's cockstock Horizon is sick. What's not sick is the normal LTD range. It's literally black/white guitars everywhere except for the Eclipses. They're missing shapes, 7-string options and everything's just so bare bones.

ESP used to be the company where you'd look and go 'damn this shit's pointy' or 'wow they did that?' and sometimes it'd be like 'damn I didn't know I was even into this!'. 7-string craze emerged and they were one of the first to pump out 7-string versions of everything. Sweet. But now it's just 'check out this black/white guitar with some emgs.. can I get a 7-string version of this? Oh.. I can't. Unless it's a H or EC in which case I get one choice.. in satin black' x100. A bit exaggerated but you get it. 

And I do understand that most of this can be explained by 'it wasn't selling / they only wanna offer stuff that sells'. It doesn't make anything less disappointing though. Other companies have a much wider range of stuff. For example, Schecter, Jackson, etc..

The way I see it.. if the Standard series aren't ever coming back, ditch E-II altogether and use all that money on LTD. Get a super large selection going on in LTD. Get more artist models in the works. There are tons of ESP artists who don't have a signature model right now. The advantage? People actually know LTD and it makes their business structure less confusing. This shit will sell and people who want the real ESP shit will still go for the real ESP shit (ESP USA / ESP Custom shop / ESP original series). Good idea?

Anyway what does everyone else think? 

Also, does anyone know what 6-string Nergal is playing right now? He's using his ESP sig for 7-string songs but on other tracks he's rocking something that looks identical to his ESP 6-string but with a different headstock. Maybe he broke his headstock/neck and got it restored by a custom builder? Anyway this is irrelevant lol 

Cheers guys sorry for the length of this post


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## cip 123 (Aug 22, 2017)

They haven't done too great with their lines lately, they've never offered too much that I wanted though. But even I was confused with their lines a couple years back there was a standard series then and elite series and an E-II....I got confused and I honestly don't look at them too much. They looked to be coming back from this years NAMM but not much to blow anyone else out the water.


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## cardinal (Aug 22, 2017)

It might be more that the guitar market is in an odd state. 

I'm sure ESP makes what it thinks it can sell, which apparently is just pretty tame me-too stuff. 

It seems in general companies are dialing back their offerings. I think people aren't buying guitars in the $1500-2500 price range like they use to. Companies are focusing on higher and lower offerings, I think.


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## Womb raider (Aug 22, 2017)

I wouldn't say they are in a bad place, but just in a transition phase.
The branding thing has been beaten to death pretty well. I'm not a fan of it, but there are enough standard series stuff out there that it's not a huge issue. They have been doing a lot of consolidating of their lines, so pretty much at this point if you want ESP on the headstock, you're going to pay. The quality is still top notch across all lines.
USA line does offer horizons if you inquire and have the means.
Check out some of their exhibition series guitars if you really want to see some off the wall stuff. They are still very innovative, but not all models see production.


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## JD27 (Aug 22, 2017)

Unless you are in the Japan market, they are focusing on the USA line over everything else. 2016 actually had quite a few different shapes, the most in a long time, but I guess they never sold. I only saw one or two SVs/EXs from the E-II line for sale and they were used. They cut back the E-II line for 2017 big time. I'm not worried though, I'm going to dive into the USA line sometime soon. In the meantime there are plenty of used options out there.


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## Zado (Aug 22, 2017)

Just need to wait. Esp always delivers.


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## narad (Aug 22, 2017)

Seems they're focusing on the entry-level stuff but domestically their Original Series line is still just as good as it ever was. 

Wish there were some more interesting sigs though -- I feel like 2008 era ESP had lots of cool stuff -- ESP Kiko SE, Haooomaru, Sugizo P90/S/S, Anchang star, Inoran, Alexi pinky/blacky, probably forgetting a ton of things that were all pretty awesome and not just different logo paint jobs, etc., so that's what's really gone downhill IMO. Nothing inspiring.


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## feraledge (Aug 22, 2017)

narad said:


> feel like 2008 era ESP had lots of cool stuff -- ESP Kiko SE, Haooomaru, Sugizo P90/S/S, Anchang star, Inoran, Alexi pinky/blacky, probably forgetting a ton of things that were all pretty awesome and not just different logo paint jobs, etc., so that's what's really gone downhill IMO. Nothing inspiring.


That stuff is still in the Japanese offerings, crazy stuff there (and no Kiko obviously), but they are still doing new stuff in the Sig line: Sparrowhawk and Vulture are both totally new shapes, think what you want of them. 
Since E-II, they brought some of the shapes they had in Japan over: Mystique, Stream, Arrow, Snapper, but only the Arrow seems to have taken off.
The mistake they made was letting ESP USA weigh in on the E-II offerings this year. Since they want to boost the US line they pulled back on E-II, which was probably a year or two premature. The direction ESP US is headed in: more options, increased customization, is great, but it still has a ways to go before it takes off in full I suspect.
The LTD line has gotten some minor and positive boosts: the neck heel carve on the 2017 line is awesome (on the EII Eclipses too). But reigning in on quality for WMI and moving the 400 series back there is a major thing. The neck and feel on LTDs is standardized again, there's a lengthy period there where it was all over the map.
So some positives, but some preemptive moves and really dumb ones: pulling the US Horizon, namely, but give it another year or two. At this point, it feels like Schecter and ESP feel more like different branches of the same company and Schecter is a bit more willing to try different things.
If they relaunch the Formula, they can redeem it all. Plus bring the US Horizon back.


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## narad (Aug 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> That stuff is still in the Japanese offerings, crazy stuff there (and no Kiko obviously), but they are still doing new stuff in the Sig line: Sparrowhawk and Vulture are both totally new shapes, think what you want of them.
> Since E-II, they brought some of the shapes they had in Japan over: Mystique, Stream, Arrow, Snapper, but only the Arrow seems to have taken off.



Yea, I mean I pretty much like all those and the Stream is a great bass platform, but this and the potbelly sort of stuff too is all a move back to more traditional designs, when I feel like earlier they were making really great incarnations of their own designs.

I need that select series back, because I need this without the inlays:


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## Blytheryn (Aug 22, 2017)

behemoth4ever said:


> Also, does anyone know what 6-string Nergal is playing right now? He's using his ESP sig for 7-string songs but on other tracks he's rocking something that looks identical to his ESP 6-string but with a different headstock. Maybe he broke his headstock/neck and got it restored by a custom builder? Anyway this is irrelevant lol
> 
> Cheers guys sorry for the length of this post



As far as I know Chris Canella who does artist relations said something about how people that he doesn't really get along with don't stay with the brand in some interview. AFAIK Nergal isn't officially on the roster any more, and just spray painted over the ESP logo on his Hex 6. That's at least what I think.


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## narad (Aug 22, 2017)

Also the FRX was a pretty good recent ESP-ish addition IMO:


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## feraledge (Aug 22, 2017)

narad said:


> I need that select series back, because I need this without the inlays:


The glorious 2012 catalog. Oh how I miss these. I kept my physical one around for YEARS. They had so many options and then never again. Also the only time since the 90s (that I'm aware of) where Horizons came stock in ash, mahogany and alder bodies.


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## arasys (Aug 22, 2017)

Years ago ESP used to offer its standard models (including RV / ESP SV 1) with custom finish options from some guitar shops for little extra in Europe. Their prices were comparably cheaper than Jackson USA series and it made a lot of sense since both companies are pretty much on par in terms of quality. 

As JD27 said last year they offered bunch of models but I think people weren't so sure about E II branding. I saw only 2 used E II SVs during 2016 on Reverb and Guitar Center's website. ESP USA is a safe bet but their options are really limited and LTD Elite line wasn't really memorable.. 
Maybe they could offer semi-customization for E II line to make them more appealing like they did back in the day?


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## behemoth4ever (Aug 22, 2017)

cardinal said:


> It might be more that the guitar market is in an odd state.
> 
> I'm sure ESP makes what it thinks it can sell, which apparently is just pretty tame me-too stuff.
> 
> It seems in general companies are dialing back their offerings. I think people aren't buying guitars in the $1500-2500 price range like they use to. Companies are focusing on higher and lower offerings, I think.


I totally agree with you on those points, it does seem that way. Hopefully next year will have a couple more surprises and less me-too stuff.



JD27 said:


> Unless you are in the Japan market, they are focusing on the USA line over everything else. 2016 actually had quite a few different shapes, the most in a long time, but I guess they never sold. I only saw one or two SVs/EXs from the E-II line for sale and they were used. They cut back the E-II line for 2017 big time. I'm not worried though, I'm going to dive into the USA line sometime soon. In the meantime there are plenty of used options out there.


Yeah I agree on all points. I spent most of 2016 playing Fender so I tuned out a bit but it does seem like they had way more shapes last year. I wanna dive into the USA stuff too, maybe if they were offering a bit more variety which I'm sure is coming.



Zado said:


> Just need to wait. Esp always delivers.


Man I really hope so !



narad said:


> Seems they're focusing on the entry-level stuff but domestically their Original Series line is still just as good as it ever was.
> 
> Wish there were some more interesting sigs though -- I feel like 2008 era ESP had lots of cool stuff -- ESP Kiko SE, Haooomaru, Sugizo P90/S/S, Anchang star, Inoran, Alexi pinky/blacky, probably forgetting a ton of things that were all pretty awesome and not just different logo paint jobs, etc., so that's what's really gone downhill IMO. Nothing inspiring.


Wow that stuff was 2008? That stuff was around when I was getting into ESP and I don't think I picked up a guitar yet in 2008. Anyway, you're right about all of that. Kiko's sig was really cool. Michael Amott's ninja guitars were the coolest Vs ever IMO (I still have the black QM top one and am still looking for someone selling the white one after all this time). Inoran had that really sick dragon Les Paul that would definitely not fly in the export market due to copyright. I remember at one point Alexi's line had like 8 different guitars in it. Now it's just the blacky and the green one right? Sugizo's/Anchang's/Hitsugi's stuff still exists for the japanese market right now.



feraledge said:


> That stuff is still in the Japanese offerings, crazy stuff there (and no Kiko obviously), but they are still doing new stuff in the Sig line: Sparrowhawk and Vulture are both totally new shapes, think what you want of them.
> Since E-II, they brought some of the shapes they had in Japan over: Mystique, Stream, Arrow, Snapper, but only the Arrow seems to have taken off.
> The mistake they made was letting ESP USA weigh in on the E-II offerings this year. Since they want to boost the US line they pulled back on E-II, which was probably a year or two premature. The direction ESP US is headed in: more options, increased customization, is great, but it still has a ways to go before it takes off in full I suspect.
> The LTD line has gotten some minor and positive boosts: the neck heel carve on the 2017 line is awesome (on the EII Eclipses too). But reigning in on quality for WMI and moving the 400 series back there is a major thing. The neck and feel on LTDs is standardized again, there's a lengthy period there where it was all over the map.
> ...


Yeah the signature line is definitely still exciting. Besides the ones I mentioned, I think Skolnick's line is awesome. Rob Caggiano's horizon specs are really classic and should be the base for all other horizon models.

It would be really cool if they expanded the ESP USA line. As I mentioned earlier I really wanna get one (I'm not even from USA so it'd be damn pricey) but they don't have the options I want yet. But yeah first and foremost the Horizon has gotta come back..

In terms of the new age shapes, I think they've been hit or miss. FRX was a decent upgrade over FGT I guess.. I'm not sure if it even needed changing. Mystique is definitely an improvement over the Potbelly and I would like to see it being integrated into the LTD line. Formula was great, not sure why they ditched it so fast. The old phoenix wasn't very original but it looks way better than the Stream in my opinion. Arrow I'm not a fan of but if it's taking off that's great. I always thought Snapper would be big but I guess people who want that stuff aren't looking at ESP.



Blytheryn said:


> As far as I know Chris Canella who does artist relations said something about how people that he doesn't really get along with don't stay with the brand in some interview. AFAIK Nergal isn't officially on the roster any more, and just spray painted over the ESP logo on his Hex 6. That's at least what I think.


Hmm it doesn't seem like the case because Nergal and the crew are current being featured on the artist page at this very moment >> http://www.espguitars.com/artists

And it seems odd that ESP would drop Nergal for any reason.. he's a top tier endorsement right below the Metallica guys IMO. Plus he's still playing the HEX-7 with the ESP logo showing (look up a recent performance of At The Left Hand ov god). It's just the 6-string one that looks different. Anyway, who knows..

Thanks for responding everyone !!


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## jl-austin (Aug 22, 2017)

I think the market is definitely going through a "Fender style" guitar phase. I don't care for it myself, but I guess that is what is selling. 

The constant branding changes might be hurting them also. I know it's been beat to death, but those brand names just flat out stink. I think Jackson has them beat at the moment in the whole "pointy guitar market". The only thing is, Jackson really doesn't offer a Guitar in the $1600 range to compete with the EII (yeah, what a name!) or the Ibanez Prestige line.


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## Tisca (Aug 22, 2017)

E-II replaced the Standard line. It's the same quality but with a much higher price. I played some Ltd's earlier this year and they were horrible. We're talking ~1300€ guitars that I felt were priced at triple value. Shoddy craftsmanship and lifeless wood. I'm glad I bought my Standards last decade and also found ESP Edwards. I feel sorry for people who buy Ltd's today and don't know any better.


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## Ikke (Aug 22, 2017)

As you said, most of the complaints you mentioned can be explained with "If it's not here anymore, it wasn't selling." People have to start showing that they care about the products if they want the product to continue existing. As a for-profit company, it doesn't do ESP any good to produce things that people aren't going to buy.

"I wish all these shapes, colors, and sizes were here...but I have no intention of buying any of them", "I was thinking about buying X guitar...", "I will buy X guitar, just not anytime soon"... none of that puts money in ESP's pocket. 

Furthermore, there tend to be complaints at every tier. 
- People don't want LTD because it's too cheap.
- People don't want E-II because they don't like the name and/or they want all the variety of the SS that they had no real interest in.
- People don't want the USA series because there aren't enough models, colors, Horizons and/or they're too expensive compared X guitar company.
- People don't want the JP series because they're too expensive.

Concerning the USA series, those guitars are made to order. Which means that they are making them because people/stores are ordering them. End of story. That's what the market wants apparently. (And yes, that means the Horizon is dead because no one wanted it! (I also asked!))

Let's instead talk about everyone's beloved Standard Series. Because I would imagine when most people think ESP, they're they're thinking of the standard series and not ESP Custom Shop or USA. And, I'd even say that most people's complaints about ESP stem from pain created by the death of (but not really) the late SS.

The Standard Series is alive and well...in spirit! It has essentially become split between Edwards and E-II. The stuff that you're talking about is in the Edwards series. The colors, shapes, variety, it's still all there, but now it's aimed at the markets that care about that stuff. Let's also talk about that for a second: The Market

Consider this: Take a look at all the signature series guitars offered on USA, Euro, etc. websites. Now go take a look at the signature series on the Japanese site. What do you notice? I posted this image before, but I think it's important for my point.

Alex Skolnick (Testament)





Uruha (The Gazette)





The Japanese/Asian market guitars tend to be a lot more exotic. From shape, to color, to hardware, everything on the Japanese side errs more exotic, less classic. The USA offerings are much more classic/tame: the signature guitars are just standard ESP shapes and/or classic shapes with different paint jobs. The Japanese asian market clearly cares about colors, shapes, variety. The non-Asian markets do not seem to care about that stuff.

Why is this comment about the Sig series important? Because a lot of people who pickup guitars (especially for the first time!) are going to pick something that resembles the guitar of their idols. If the American signatures are all super tame, then the consumers that are buying ESP guitars are going to look for those same tame guitars that their idols play. The marketing here seems to be showing that non-asian audiences want things that look like strats/tele's/SG/LPs etc..they just want the classics. The JP audiences are looking for exotic non-classic stuff; they want something a little more unique. 

TLDR - Be the change you want to see! ESP is seems to be mostly fine to me. (That rhymed!)

(...Also, let's be honest, no one actually wanted an EX...)


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## Crash Dandicoot (Aug 22, 2017)

Well stated, Ikke. I almost exclusively buy Japan-only ESPs for that very reason - all of their off the wall, interesting and flat out strange designs are still prominent there. Seconded on the EX - what people want is an import legal MX series 

In terms of cost, as well, naturally it should be expected that the JP lines would be a tad pricier, given that it's the brand's origin / flagship.Having said that, I've found that their second hand value is far from ridiculous. They don't seem to hold the same staying power for value over there (with some exceptions, obviously). Conversely, trying to buy a Tom Anderson or Suhr from Japan is a ludicrous idea, they're insanely expensive compared to domestic prices. Different values based on availability / desirability, I guess? Maybe I'm so into JP ESP's due to an "exotic" vibe, and possibly they feel the same about boutique American brands. Something to ponder.


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## couverdure (Aug 23, 2017)

Ikke said:


> As you said, most of the complaints you mentioned can be explained with "If it's not here anymore, it wasn't selling." People have to start showing that they care about the products if they want the product to continue existing. As a for-profit company, it doesn't do ESP any good to produce things that people aren't going to buy.
> 
> "I wish all these shapes, colors, and sizes were here...but I have no intention of buying any of them", "I was thinking about buying X guitar...", "I will buy X guitar, just not anytime soon"... none of that puts money in ESP's pocket.



The same could be said for Ibanez and the Prestige RGAs, a lot of people obsess over the 121 even though they've been discontinued for almost ten years now but I don't see them go over the other Prestige models which have also been discontinued, and the only Japan-made RGA that's still in production is the JBM100. Too much people here are very picky over stock specs they have no control over and when they aren't, they always buy them second-hand and demand the company to make more (if they do, they'll end up with stuff like the Iron Label series, which people here aren't too fond of because they aren't Prestiges).


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## Metropolis (Aug 23, 2017)

I don't know what is going on with pricing of LTD's, they have definetly gone up. Indonesian made 400-series costs around 999 euro's at local distributor, which was a price for 1000-series couple of years ago. Now Deluxe and Signatures cost around 1100 and 1450. USA made models will be 4k in here, E-II around 1700 - 2500, and there is not enough offerings in the middle ground and between those price ranges.


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## xzacx (Aug 23, 2017)

I'm not a big ESP fan, so take this with a grain of salt. But from casual observation, the E-II line seems to have hurt the brand by confusing the market. Whether or not the quality is any different from the Standards, people aren't sure what it is, how it's different, or why it changed. I think that's really opened the door for Jackson's higher end imports to be a more attractive option than they have been in recent times. While their quality is probably not on par with E-II (although I have been really impressed with the Pro Series stuff I've had the chance to try), they are making compelling and attractive models, and they say "Jackson" on the headstock, rather than J-II or something ambiguous to people who don't follow gear as closely as we do.


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## JD27 (Aug 23, 2017)

The Jackson Pro Stuff is roughly the same level as the LTD Signature and 1000s. Though I'd take a solid built WMI instrument over anything Indonesian any day. I don't think that anyone is fooled into thinking it is the same as an E-II and eating into their sales. Most of the E-II issues stem from lack of options as anything else. They could rename them to the ESP Standard Series again and that problem would remain and people would still bitch about it.


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## Zado (Aug 23, 2017)

xzacx said:


> I'm not a big ESP fan, so take this with a grain of salt. But from casual observation, the E-II line seems to have hurt the brand by confusing the market. Whether or not the quality is any different from the Standards, people aren't sure what it is, how it's different, or why it changed. I think that's really opened the door for Jackson's higher end imports to be a more attractive option than they have been in recent times. While their quality is probably not on par with E-II (although I have been really impressed with the Pro Series stuff I've had the chance to try), they are making compelling and attractive models, and they say "Jackson" on the headstock, rather than J-II or something ambiguous to people who don't follow gear as closely as we do.



That's funny cause Jackson has never been less appealing to me


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## dongh1217 (Aug 23, 2017)

Not here to argue with anyone, however, about these old SS and now E-II, someone from ESP needs to stand up and tell the truth about the "Made in Japan" sticker on their guitars, not by dealers, not by random consumers.


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## JD27 (Aug 23, 2017)

dongh1217 said:


> Not here to argue with anyone, however, about these old SS and now E-II, someone from ESP needs to stand up and tell the truth about the "Made in Japan" sticker on their guitars, not by dealers, not by random consumers.



Have I missed some conspiracy theory about them not being "Made in Japan"?

They clearly say where they are made on the website.

"Built in Japan by ESP’s luthiers, the ESP E-II Series represents a new standard in high-quality guitars and basses. ESP E-II bridges the gap between our premium ESP and LTD models, with great looks, sound, and craftsmanship built into each instrument."

http://www.espguitars.com/products?categories=e-ii-guitars

http://www.espguitars.com/pages/e-ii-series


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## Shoeless_jose (Aug 23, 2017)

I dont carr about E II vs ESP on the headstock. Colours and other options have been rather lacking lately on the EII and the LTDs. Still the Reindeer Blue Horizon is pretty epic even if it came out to around 2500 Canadian. 

But yeah guitar markets are in a weird spot now. People buying high end stuff are getting custom shop Mayones, Ran, Skeverson and other such things, ESP isnt the only high end metal guitars readily available like they were in 2008. So sadly they have to back off production a bit untill they find their niche once again.


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## feraledge (Aug 23, 2017)

dongh1217 said:


> Not here to argue with anyone, however, about these old SS and now E-II, someone from ESP needs to stand up and tell the truth about the "Made in Japan" sticker on their guitars, not by dealers, not by random consumers.


For fuck's sake....






It's been how many years now?? Can people just get over it?? E-II, a stupid name for awesome guitars. Just deal with it and stop pretending there's some vast conspiracy.


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## Zado (Aug 23, 2017)

But is Japan Japanese?


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## Womb raider (Aug 23, 2017)

As far as limited options for the EII line, afaik that was the whole intention. Instead of offering 13 different models with 5 options for each model and having a bunch of guitars sit for months/years, they just paired it down to the most popular model/options which is a more efficient way of moving guitars.


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## Rawkmann (Aug 23, 2017)

I'm amazed how many people are still so hung up on ESPs naming scheme. Hell I never even had a problem with the LTD 'Elite' name on the headstocks.


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## dongh1217 (Aug 23, 2017)

feraledge said:


> For fuck's sake....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




what if we were all wrong since the beginning of ESP SS line? as a current owner of several "Made in Japan" ESP SS guitars, I have zero respect for ESP putting up these "Made in Japan" stickers on their SS lines from the very beginning. but who cares, people keep their mouth shut and guitar sells, people including myself are still buying. Lol, Peace out.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Aug 23, 2017)

I'm not hung up on anything, but I don't see too much sense in making dramatic changes to a well established brand like ESP.

The real issue in my case, since I'm a hobbyist, is the rising prices. Pretty much, as affordability goes, I'm down to the 400, 1000 series and a few of the LTD sigs. E-II, USA prod/custom shop are all out of my reach. 

E-II models also seem to me to be more expensive than comparable Ibanez Prestige models, with even much fewer options for 7-strings, seriously? If that's how ESP see themselves, as a niche custom shop, mostly for Japanese market, then that's unfortunate IMHO. I find it hard to spin their new marketing/branding strategy as a win for someone like me, YMMV.


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## feraledge (Aug 23, 2017)

dongh1217 said:


> what if we were all wrong since the beginning of ESP SS line? as a current owner of several "Made in Japan" ESP SS guitars, I have zero respect for ESP putting up these "Made in Japan" stickers on their SS lines from the very beginning. but who cares, people keep their mouth shut and guitar sells, people including myself are still buying. Lol, Peace out.


ESP was not an inside job then, eh?
Since we're tin foil deep, if the SS weren't "made in Japan" then where do you suspect the old "MIJ" mid-level Jacksons, Charvels and Ibanez were REALLY made? I think we can work backwards from there.


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## xzacx (Aug 23, 2017)

feraledge said:


> It's been how many years now?? Can people just get over it?? E-II, a stupid name for awesome guitars. Just deal with it and stop pretending there's some vast conspiracy.



This was my only point in bringing it up. The fact that people still think this IMO is proof of the confusion it created, which (again, IMO) hasn't helped the brand.


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## Ikke (Aug 23, 2017)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> I'm not hung up on anything, but I don't see too much sense in making dramatic changes to a well established brand like ESP.
> 
> The real issue in my case, since I'm a hobbyist, is the rising prices. Pretty much, as affordability goes, I'm down to the 400, 1000 series and a few of the LTD sigs. E-II, USA prod/custom shop are all out of my reach.
> 
> E-II models also seem to me to be more expensive than comparable Ibanez Prestige models, with even much fewer options for 7-strings, seriously? If that's how ESP see themselves, as a niche custom shop, mostly for Japanese market, then that's unfortunate IMHO. I find it hard to spin their new marketing/branding strategy as a win for someone like me, YMMV.



No dramatic changes really. There was a name change. Most people aren't confused by E-II. Many just hate the name, but most know what it is. And, yes from ESP's standpoint, the name change makes sense. Even as a consumer, I understand the reason for the change.

Models were removed, as is the case when people aren't buying them. 

And ESP is hardly "a niche custom shop, mostly for the Japanese market". I don't think ESP sees themselves that way. I don't think most consumers see them that way.


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## Ikke (Aug 23, 2017)

xzacx said:


> This was my only point in bringing it up. The fact that people still think this IMO is proof of the confusion it created, which (again, IMO) hasn't helped the brand.



You can't blame ESP for the consumer refusing to understand and/or accept. This is not a matter of confusion. This is just people not being able, or more likely, not wanting to move on.


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## xzacx (Aug 23, 2017)

Ikke said:


> You can't blame ESP for the consumer refusing to understand and/or accept. This is not a matter of confusion. This is just people not being able, or more likely, not wanting to move on.



Why did they make the change though? (Legitimate question, I can't remember ever hearing a reason, but I imagine there must be one.) That's where I fault them, assuming there wasn't some reason they HAD to. The ESP name has a lot of value to people, and right or wrong, it's not surprising there's been resistance to the change.


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## Dredg (Aug 23, 2017)

As a lefty, I can't help but laugh whenever a righty complains about models/options being slashed.


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## Ikke (Aug 23, 2017)

xzacx said:


> Why did they make the change though? (Legitimate question, I can't remember ever hearing a reason, but I imagine there must be one.) That's where I fault them, assuming there wasn't some reason they HAD to. The ESP name has a lot of value to people, and right or wrong, it's not surprising there's been resistance to the change.



There was no reason they had to. It's an identity thing.

ESP is a Custom Shop. This is what they started out as, this is what they will continue to be. Why is this important? Because the SS were not Custom Shop Guitars.

When you think Mayones, you think of high end guitars. When you think of Suhr, you think high end guitars.

But when you think of Gibson, what do you think of? You'd probably say, "Well it depends on the Gibson." Same with Fender, Jackson, Ibanez...the answer is "It depends on what you're talking about."

ESP also fell into this same line of thinking with the Standard Series. I'm sure you've seen the threads "Should I buy a Standard Series Eclipse or an Original Series Eclipse CTM? They look similar but there's a drastic difference in price..." This line of thinking continues when comparing the SS to other brands. "Should I get a Standard Series Horizon or a Mayones Regius?" Whether you take the first example or the second example, you're comparing guitars of different classes, aimed at different markets.

The truth is the SS/Edwards/E-II are budget tourable(?) guitars, and ESP has never stood for budget. They never were budget. ESP is a custom shop as I said. The goal with the name change was to change the mindset of what ESP stood for.

First they tried changing the ESP logo on the headstock to differentiate from the older sibling Original Series. That wasn't enough though. The name needed to change.

Then ESP made a mistake and called them LTD Elite. This was bad because everyone went, "Okke, I get it's the Standard Series, but you're making it share the name of the lowest tier ESP brand guitars." Again, now you're comparing essentially an SS with an LTD. Two different classes again, two different markets. Some cared, some didn't, but the branding was ultimately no esta bien.

So, then they changed to E-II and everyone hated the name. But! There's a silver lining and that was that it's unique from both ESP and LTD. So, it stuck.

So now, when you think of ESP you think Original Series, USA, Custom Shop. And that's what ESP wants you to think of when you think ESP: handmade, top tier guitars.

TLDR: They wanted the ESP name to mean high-end and not budget.


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## feraledge (Aug 23, 2017)

xzacx said:


> Why did they make the change though? (Legitimate question, I can't remember ever hearing a reason, but I imagine there must be one.) That's where I fault them, assuming there wasn't some reason they HAD to. The ESP name has a lot of value to people, and right or wrong, it's not surprising there's been resistance to the change.


The felt having the SS line under the ESP moniker was reducing the brand value that they wanted reserved for the custom and original lines. So they're doing what they want, for better or worse. E-II just wasn't a very cool name.


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## jl-austin (Aug 23, 2017)

Jackson also started off as a custom shop. I fail to see how selling Japanese guitars at the $1600 range (which are actually quite good) hurts the ESP "brand". I just don't see it. 

I don't want to this to go off into this brand or that brand, but there is a lot in a name. There are a lot of people out there who don't want to spend $1600 on a generic branded guitar. 

There are also a lot of young people out there who would want what there hero plays, not some 3rd tier instruments with generic logos that all their friends will make fun of.


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## Womb raider (Aug 23, 2017)

As an ESP fan, I feel like I'm in the minority on this board hating the E-II. It is a legitimate question as to why they would do this. Looking at the whole issue from a business perspective, it was just a bad move. Branding is everything these days. and as musicians, most of us are guilty of being brand-whores to some extent. By creating the E-II line, it just watered down the brand and created confusion and made new guitars with the ESP logo unobtainable for many folk.
I don't question that E-II are well made guitars to the same specs as the older SS were. But If _I'm_ dropping 1,700, it better say ESP. 
If one day Nike decided that all shoes under $100 no longer get the swoosh but some weird logo instead I'd feel the same way as well and probably would not buy them or shell out more money to have the swoosh. Maybe that makes me petty, I don't know. But I will say, if none of us cared about what the headstock says on any guitar, we'd all be running around with squiers and epiphones or whatnot. 
On the flip side, there are guys that having a guitar made by ESP even though the headstock may say E-II is good enough for them and I can respect that. 

Case in point... this is ugly as shit:


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## Ikke (Aug 23, 2017)

Womb raider said:


> Case in point... this is ugly as shit:



Personally, I don't mind it too much. I played one (same version but black) a month back at Sam Ash. I really liked it a lot! The black version has natural binding too on the headstock and body. Was a great guitar. Would recommend!


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## Dredg (Aug 23, 2017)

jl-austin said:


> Jackson also started off as a custom shop. I fail to see how selling Japanese guitars at the $1600 range (which are actually quite good) hurts the ESP "brand". I just don't see it.
> 
> I don't want to this to go off into this brand or that brand, but there is a lot in a name. There are a lot of people out there who don't want to spend $1600 on a generic branded guitar.
> 
> There are also a lot of young people out there who would want what there hero plays, not some 3rd tier instruments with generic logos that all their friends will make fun of.



Jackson was also bought by Fender, which uses the brand name as it wishes.

ESP values itself as a high end brand that doesn't cut corners or compromise. In order to preserve that notion of quality, They have decided to release their budget lines under a different name. It worked with the LTD line.

While there are a lot of young people who want to play what the hero plays, it is more often than not an impossible task if the guitar is thousands of dollars. As seen with the modern market, many signature artists are endorsing budget guitars in an attempt to market to a wider audience. Mike Akerfeldt, Ola Englund, Paul Allender, Mark Tremonti, etc.


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## JD27 (Aug 23, 2017)

Womb raider said:


> Case in point... this is ugly as shit:



I don't mind the E-II logo on any other model except this one. For me it's the placement, they should have just put it in the same place as the script logo was on every other cockstock.


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## Shoeless_jose (Aug 24, 2017)

I'm totally fine with E-II they are still some kick ass guitars and that's what matters to me. I still have just as hard gas for the Vintage Black Eclipse with Gold Hardware, and same for several Horizons. 

Honestly I like ESP/E-II/LTD for the specs they offer, don't really care about brand prestige, I think generally the looks, components and tone will speak for themselves more than what it says on the head stock.


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## couverdure (Aug 24, 2017)

From what I understand, I think ESP (at least outside of Japan) is trying to simplify their lines into quality tiers a la Ibanez.

LTD = Standard/Gio (might add Premium since I think some higher-end LTDs are built in a different factory)
E-II = Prestige/J. Custom
ESP = LACS/what the USA Custom series used to be or whatever


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## jephjacques (Aug 24, 2017)

I'd put ESP USA in the J.Custom bracket but I'm pretty sure you're right.

Personally I think the E-II brand is dumb but they're still great guitars.


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## Viginez (Aug 24, 2017)

couverdure said:


> From what I understand, I think ESP (at least outside of Japan) is trying to simplify their lines into quality tiers a la Ibanez.
> 
> LTD = Standard/Gio (might add Premium since I think some higher-end LTDs are built in a different factory)
> E-II = Prestige/J. Custom
> ESP = LACS/what the USA Custom series used to be or whatever


with the huge difference ibanez puts their logo on every instrument.
i don't think esp simplifies things with putting strange logos on the headstock.


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## Ikke (Aug 24, 2017)

The Ibanez LACS is more prestigious than the JCustom? I had no idea. The more you know.


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## angl2k (Aug 24, 2017)

Personally I can't stand the E-II name it's just so corny.

Imo the old naming was fine, the ESP standard were in price range 1600-1800 euro and the ESP Original series were the higher end guitars. Now, the E-II costs 2000 euro and has that fugly logo.

Unfortunately my ESP dealer knows about the rebranding and jacked up the prices of the old stock ESP standards 

My only wish for the E-II brand is that they will put more colors available as an order option, instead of just satin black/white.


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## Sermo Lupi (Aug 24, 2017)

Ikke said:


> The Ibanez LACS is more prestigious than the JCustom? I had no idea. The more you know.



Well, define prestigious. Are they better made guitars? Maybe. But they're a hell of a lot harder to get a hold of (you need to be a prominent artist to get one, or wait for one to pop up used), so in that sense arguably they're more prestigious. 

However, for all intents and purposes J Custom is the end of the line. If it weren't for a small subset of collectors that hunt down used LACS models on the aftermarket, LACS wouldn't be a part of this discussion at all. I don't think their custom shop--set up in the way that it is, being only available to artists--should be compared to high-end production lines from other brands. It's different from other custom shops, even.


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## Ikke (Aug 24, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Well, define prestigious. Are they better made guitars? Maybe. But they're a hell of a lot harder to get a hold of (you need to be a prominent artist to get one, or wait for one to pop up used), so in that sense arguably they're more prestigious.
> 
> However, for all intents and purposes J Custom is the end of the line. If it weren't for a small subset of collectors that hunt down used LACS models on the aftermarket, LACS wouldn't be a part of this discussion at all. I don't think their custom shop--set up in the way that it is, being only available to artists--should be compared to high-end production lines from other brands. It's different from other custom shops, even.



Oh gotcha. Thank you for your explanation. 

An artist dedicated custom shop. That seems awfully strange to me. Do Japanese artist also get their guitars made in the LACS? Or is it just for American artists?


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## Zado (Aug 24, 2017)

Wait if "ESP" means Esp-aña and they are all made in Spain? Hu? 


feraledge said:


> ESP was not an inside job then, eh?
> Since we're tin foil deep, if the SS weren't "made in Japan" then where do you suspect the old "MIJ" mid-level Jacksons, Charvels and Ibanez were REALLY made? I think we can work backwards from there.


Wait if "ESP" means Esp-aña and they are all made in Spain? Hu?


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## Andromalia (Aug 24, 2017)

My take on it is that the 1500ish € Standard line was too good for the price. I own two, and the quality difference with my ESP original isn't that evident, they're all top notch. I think my Viper is the guitar I've had the longest now, and it evaded the 2016 purge of my (admittedly bloated) collection.


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## Edika (Aug 24, 2017)

I wonder if in a few years ESP ditches the E-II name and goes back to ESP and suddenly E-II's become the golden era workhorse ESP guitars and people seek them out fanatically paying more from what they cost new. Because the then current ESP are not as good as the E-II's of the past. And don't get me started on the prices of the ESP's before the E-II's   .


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## jephjacques (Aug 24, 2017)

I could absolutely see it happening. Just the other day there were folks on here saying how guitars were built better in the "good old days" of the '90s...when I was a teenager....and guitars mostly* sucked...

*90s PRSes and pre-Fender Jacksons are really really good


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## Shoeless_jose (Aug 24, 2017)

Haha all the Gibson blues dads bust their nuts over 90s Les Pauls. Likely just anti Norlin backlash


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## feraledge (Aug 24, 2017)

I won't be the first to say it, but 90s ESPs are the shit. Early 2000s LTDs have some of the finest fretboards I've seen on production guitars.
And yet I'll still buy up some E-IIs gladly.


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## Rawkmann (Aug 24, 2017)

The exact guitar You pictured for that headstock is for sale local to me and I've played it several times. It's so nice that once I played it, I didn't give a crap about what was on the headstock. Here's the full pic:


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## jl-austin (Aug 24, 2017)

Edika said:


> I wonder if in a few years ESP ditches the E-II name and goes back to ESP and suddenly E-II's become the golden era workhorse ESP guitars and people seek them out fanatically paying more from what they cost new. .



I would say no because there are very few collectors of ESP guitars (yes, I am sure they are out there, but not like the other brands (without generic logos).

$1600 will buy you a real American Fender, a real American Gibson. Definitely a nice Japanese Ibanez. Or a generic labeled E-II that people are going to ask "what is an E-II". It's one of those things that I think their success over the past few years has gone to their heads, and they think people will buy a generic $1600 guitar.


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## JD27 (Aug 24, 2017)

Well thank Satan they put the ESP logo on the 12th fret and rear of the headstock or we would all be sitting around wondering what this generic $1600 made in Japan guitar was.


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## Shoeless_jose (Aug 24, 2017)

if price is the same I'd take an E-II over 90% of MIJ Ibanez any day... not sure why E-II is "generic" anyone who actually cares, would know.


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## Sermo Lupi (Aug 24, 2017)

Ikke said:


> Oh gotcha. Thank you for your explanation.
> 
> An artist dedicated custom shop. That seems awfully strange to me. Do Japanese artist also get their guitars made in the LACS? Or is it just for American artists?



It's all of the artists. I'm sure there's guys on the roster that aren't big enough to get LACS guitars, but it's not due to any sort of geographic restriction or anything.


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## couverdure (Aug 24, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> It's all of the artists. I'm sure there's guys on the roster that aren't big enough to get LACS guitars, but it's not due to any sort of geographic restriction or anything.


Ibanez also has a custom shop in Japan: the IGDC (Ibanez Guitar Development Center). They built the RGCTM1, which only six of them exist, and some customs for endorsers like this left-handed FR.


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## Velokki (Aug 25, 2017)

I've owned many LTDs, and they were always THE brand for me for many years. But I really think the offerings got stale, I think they just stopped innovating. They were on the top of their game in 2003-2008, but ever since then I feel it's been a continual contraction for the worse. In 2013 some of the Elite models were ace, and the Andy James sig was classy. As well as all Reindeer Blue finished guitars.

I think just about any company is more interesting than them these days. Even though if they lived 95% off their bread and butter models, like the EC1000, M-series etc, they should continue to craft radical creations that would make me laugh or have my pupils dilate upon sight. That's a purely branding type of thing.


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## oc616 (Aug 25, 2017)

I owned 2 LTDs in the past, were easily the 2 worst guitars I'd owned in terms of finish, fit and fretting and we aren't talking £300-£400 range either. Those were the 7 string version of Steph's signature model, which I had when I was 16 and obsessed with Fear Factory but hated fixed bridges over TOMs, and an EC-1000. 

The 7 string was awful in retrospect, turned out the bridge was not filled/fitted correctly when I took it for a set up years after purchase where I actually knew what I was doing with guitar. The bridge was so far forward it would cause the higher strings to cut and snap early and often, not what you'd expect from a then £850 guitar (now £930 I think?). 

The Eclipse I kept for about a week before returning it. Then frets were awful, one of the pickup screw cavities had been over bored, and the connections loose somewhere inside after a few days. After that I was convinced never to bother with their product line again, let alone consider ever investing in a £2000+ ESP version. Schecter just did what they did for me with better quality control (although nowadays they've slipped too). The kicker for me, was a £300 RG7 was more solid in its construction than guitars 3 times its price, so I stuck with Ibanez and just got used to the fixed bridge instead. 

My experiences aside, I can see other reasons for their current state. Whereas Ibanez has a healthy Jazz and Acoustic customer base, can ESP say the same? Sure, they MAKE acoustic guitars, but I can't recall ever having met someone with one or in brick and mortar stores. Given the electric's decline in popularity vs the acoustic, with ESP having so firmly lodged themselves in the Metal and Hard Rock bracket, its not hard to see why they're pulling back on some of their £1000-£1500 LTD lines (especially in extended range guitars, which have seen their offerings reduced across most of the big names too). Dean and BC Rich are other examples of why going so ham on Metal and Hard Rock in their current waning popularity isn't paying off. How many kids getting into their first metal bands are going to know who Karl Sanders, Batio or Vinnie Moore are? Signature artists are so important for pulling in first purchases of a brand. In fact lets take a look at what I'd guess would be "entry point artist sigs":

*DEAN:*
- Dimebag
- Dave Mustaine
- (maybe) Jacky Vincent

*BC RICH:*
- Kerry King, that's it.

*ESP:*
- Brian "Head" Welch
- James Hetfield
- Kirk Hammett
- Will Adler
- Stephen Carpenter
- Jeff Hanneman, although not sure if this will count for much longer.

There's a lot of artists that seem really niche, or have questionable relevancy nowadays (Mille Petrozza is a boss, but is he big enough anymore to carry a product line?) Come to think of it, Ibanez and Schecter have very popular Bass lines too, does someone have more knowledge regarding ESPs basses? Always struck me as BC Rich-lite. 

Sorry for the essay. This is not intended as a bash on the brand despite my experiences, just not really my cup of tea anymore. There are plenty of current models with great specs I would otherwise love to try out, such as Ken Susi or Head's models, but (and this is another factor I fear) brick and mortar stores near me just do not stock ESP lines. Lots of Ibanez and Schecter, some Jackson, no ESP. Could be related to their pricing and lack of consistent sales based on my conversations with some of the staff, although they're still happy ordering ones you want to buy.


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## Millul (Aug 25, 2017)

Rawkmann said:


> The exact guitar You pictured for that headstock is for sale local to me and I've played it several times. It's so nice that once I played it, I didn't give a crap about what was on the headstock. Here's the full pic:



Buy this - the awesomeness is off the charts, and almost nothing plays like and ESP neck!


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## Edika (Aug 25, 2017)

jl-austin said:


> I would say no because there are very few collectors of ESP guitars (yes, I am sure they are out there, but not like the other brands (without generic logos).
> 
> $1600 will buy you a real American Fender, a real American Gibson. Definitely a nice Japanese Ibanez. Or a generic labeled E-II that people are going to ask "what is an E-II". It's one of those things that I think their success over the past few years has gone to their heads, and they think people will buy a generic $1600 guitar.



I know, I was just making a joke of the situation we've seen too many times with various brands and models. Truth be told this mainly happens with Gibson that when a specific model slightly different comes out, nobody likes it then goes for dirt cheap in the used market for the first few years and after a longer while people realize they're the holly grail of that model and sell they're beat up crap for more of what they paid new. 
It won't happen with E-II of course but I've already seen people hyping ESP models before the E-II moniker as real, genuine ESP that are better when everyone that has tried E-II says they're the same as ESP standard in feel, sound and playability.


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## Rawkmann (Aug 25, 2017)

Millul said:


> Buy this - the awesomeness is off the charts, and almost nothing plays like and ESP neck!



Trust me it's been a huge temptation!


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## marcwormjim (Aug 25, 2017)

If ESP is to be taken to task for anything, it's that their product lines are utterly lacking in extrasensory perception - At _that _price point, no less!


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## skewkus13 (Aug 25, 2017)

The whole "Eii" thing was so disappointing for me, back in 2006 i got the ltd Michael Armott ninja 600 and loved it, then later the Esp sv urban camo, everyone wanted to play esp back then and black pointy guitars were the shit and every bigger metal band had an artist with esp. When they took esp off the headstock it kind of took all the magic away, when i look at one it doesn't make feel anything. You have to remember too, that the whole "boutique builder" explosion happened and everyone wanted burled timbers with oiled finishes. Esp sales must have taken hit here.


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## feraledge (Aug 25, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> If ESP is to be taken to task for anything, it's that their product lines are utterly lacking in extrasensory perception - At _that _price point, no less!


You haven't felt my custom. It just... really gets me. 



skewkus13 said:


> The whole "Eii" thing was so disappointing for me, back in 2006 i got the ltd Michael Armott ninja 600 and loved it, then later the Esp sv urban camo, everyone wanted to play esp back then and black pointy guitars were the shit and every bigger metal band had an artist with esp. When they took esp off the headstock it kind of took all the magic away, when i look at one it doesn't make feel anything. You have to remember too, that the whole "boutique builder" explosion happened and everyone wanted burled timbers with oiled finishes. Esp sales must have taken hit here.


You start out talking about an ESP that has LTD on the headstock and how it lead you to the magic. If you think what the headstock says is the magic, I don't get the magic. 
And I think the major brands have probably felt just about zero impact from the boutique builders other than having forums like this that will convince people-who-aren't-rich that dropping anything over $2000 on a guitar is acceptable. In which case, the custom bug is legit and anyone who follows the fly-by-night "boutique" schemes will ride out the storm with builders who are reputable and reliable, which, for the most part, are companies like ESP. 
So if they're saying they want to strengthen their brand by focusing the ESP logo on customs only and then open a second custom-built shop in another country, you can probably assume that the custom orders aren't on the decline.


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## dirtool (Aug 26, 2017)

first,take off the 12th inlay


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## Zado (Aug 26, 2017)

dirtool said:


> first,take off the 12th inlay


This is serious matter.


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## feraledge (Aug 27, 2017)

Forums: 
"E-IIs are garbage."
"LTDs are serious junk, total fire wood."

Andy James with production LTD sigs:


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## theicon2125 (Aug 30, 2017)

I know I haven't owned as many as a lot of the guys here but I've owned 3 "ESPs" and have a 4th on the way. To me the logo on the headstock means nothing. It's a quick way of seeing the price range of the guitar. I definitely do agree that just because it says E-II it's generic. Like Dineley said, anyone who actually cares will already know that E-II is an extension of the ESP brand like LTD. You don't see people (at least in my experience) saying, "What is a LTD?" You're more likely to have someone come up and say, "that's a nice Les Paul," while you're playing an Eclipse.


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## gunch (Aug 30, 2017)

I think esp will be ok as long as they're the guitar company that makes Metallica's guitars.


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## FitRocker33 (Aug 30, 2017)

I can't speak for anybody else's experiences but my e-II Horizon IIIs quality easily exceeds that of some other pricier guitars I've tried recently. 

The fretwork and fit/finish is top shelf and unplugged it is quite lively acoustically, which is often an excellent gauge of how it's gonna sound plugged in.

I've played older era ESP standard series guitars that were nice but didn't meet the level of quality in my eII. 

Take that FWIW


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## eightsixboy (Aug 31, 2017)

feraledge said:


> Forums:
> "E-IIs are garbage."
> "LTDs are serious junk, total fire wood."
> 
> Andy James with production LTD sigs:




Of which he would of been given a good one, its not like they would just give him any old LTD of the production line.

LTD's are like any cheaper guitar, you have to try before you buy and in most cases seek out a good one. I had an older LTD back in the 2000's that was great, but I have seen and played many poor ones in later years.



FitRocker33 said:


> I can't speak for anybody else's experiences but my e-II Horizon IIIs quality easily exceeds that of some other pricier guitars I've tried recently.
> 
> The fretwork and fit/finish is top shelf and unplugged it is quite lively acoustically, which is often an excellent gauge of how it's gonna sound plugged in.
> 
> ...



The E-II's I have had have been better then any Prestige I have had, ESP really have there s**t together when making guitars, even an LTD elite (pre E-II) was awesome quality, for the price $1200 aud that it was its absurd that it was MIJ and of such high quality.

I think the only thing that lets ESP down is there model range, its very bland. Quite a few models I wanted to get were only available with EMG's or certain bridge types, really wish they would do multiple color, pup and brigde options for more models.


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## FitRocker33 (Sep 1, 2017)

I would have to agree with that. Trips to the guitar shop have become quite uninteresting across the board. My last acquisition was my EBMM jp7 bfr which was a special order mainly because it was a high octane specimen. It has a nice deep quilted top and a very heavily flamed neck. More flamed than I'd recently seen on a 4500 dollar Prs McCarty 594 artist package.


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## purpledc (Sep 1, 2017)

ESP's customer base seems to have shrank. I see a lot of people have moved on to full on customs. With Instagram makers and bands also getting a start on social media, music has taken on a whole new life even within the instruments markets. Some brands picked up on it like schecter and Ibanez. ESP seems to want to still do things the old way and just reduce the amount of instruments and options within a range. IMHO ESP would do well to revamp their entire line with some new modern shapes that don't try to reinvent the wheel but rather tasteful takes that speak to todays current market. Problem is at this point they will just look like they are jumping on a bandwagon. They have to do something. I don't think the USA guitars are nearly the success they thought they would be. But then again the prices are insane. The custom shop makes more sense. But in that price range most will still go to the flavor of the month maker.


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## JD27 (Sep 1, 2017)

I think the USA models are priced that bad. They are in the Jackson USA price range. Plus you can get a semi-custom build. I need to find a way to make a TE appear.


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## feraledge (Sep 1, 2017)

JD27 said:


> I think the USA models are priced that bad. They are in the Jackson USA price range. Plus you can get a semi-custom build. I need to find a way to make a TE appear.


I'm sure you mean you don't think they're priced badly and I agree. They're cheaper than Originals and semi-customizable plus more options to come.


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## JD27 (Sep 1, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I'm sure you mean you don't think they're priced badly and I agree. They're cheaper than Originals and semi-customizable plus more options to come.



That is what I meant to say.


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## nexvid (Sep 2, 2017)

FWIW, there's an actual ESP shop near my home (no its not japan), as in I have played the ESP shinigami from the catalogs(can be yours for 27,000usd). All the Original Series, E-II, Edwards, Grass Roots, are there, no LTD thou. Anyway the owner is my friend, a very cool japanese dude, and I'm in the process of maybe getting a new Horizon II or an MX-2. I have played most of the models in the store and I could say that the E-II are exactly the same as the old Standard Series, but I am not a fan of the logo anyway. What I can tell you is that the custom shop stuff and the Japanese original series are miles away in quality. They sell well, the shop has been there for a couple of years and It doesn't seem to be closing anytime soon.

As a brand i think ESP is first their custom shop and then the ESP music academy, I see kids building pedals and taking music lessons there all the time. There is a summer course were you can fly to one of the Japanese customs shops and make your own guitar, or take lessons at the shop where you can bring your instrument and they teach you how to fix it, etc. They have a japanese luthier to help you fix your instrument and if you bring a ESP guitar you get a yearly set up for free, free strings too. 

Funny thing is around the corner there is another shop, and they have probably every single schecter under the sun, owner is a good friend too. I once asked him why they don't have any ESPs (the carry mayones, caparison, Ibanez, etc) since they have the same parent company as schecter; he said that basically schecter had turned into what the old LTD line was for America (LTDs are kind of rare around where I live) and he sells too many schecters to be bothering with more expensive guitars that are hard to sell and keep around.


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## narad (Sep 2, 2017)

http://www.esp.ac.jp/language/en/

Wow, first time I had heard of ESP being a college!


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## JD27 (Sep 2, 2017)

narad said:


> http://www.esp.ac.jp/language/en/
> 
> Wow, first time I had heard of ESP being a college!



Yeah the owner of ESP, Hisatake Shibuya, runs music schools through ESP.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 4, 2017)

There's a three year luthier course too. That sounds awesome.


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 4, 2017)

Well they do need to teach the school dropouts they put into bands how to play.


----------



## prlgmnr (Sep 4, 2017)

narad said:


> http://www.esp.ac.jp/language/en/
> 
> Wow, first time I had heard of ESP being a college!


TECHNICAL HOUSE!!!!!!


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 5, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I'm sure you mean you don't think they're priced badly and I agree. They're cheaper than Originals and semi-customizable plus more options to come.



The thing with the USA models is, they're a small output operation. Plus, they won't sell in Europe because taxes make them as expensive as Japan CS stuff (check this page, official ESP dealer in France: http://www.guitarsrebellion.com/crbst_40.html ) The USA Horizon has been sitting there for more than a year.


----------



## Zado (Sep 5, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> The thing with the USA models is, they're a small output operation. Plus, they won't sell in Europe because taxes make them as expensive as Japan CS stuff (check this page, official ESP dealer in France: http://www.guitarsrebellion.com/crbst_40.html ) The USA Horizon has been sitting there for more than a year.


Some crazy prices there, expecially that 3k Friedman (whicj isn t anything special spec wise) and the 7.6k Macassar Suhr


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 5, 2017)

It's not on their configurator yet but I've seen a couple neck-through USA MIIs and even a USA neck-through Horizon popping up in stores like Axe Palace and Wild West Guitars. Innnnnnteresting...


----------



## JD27 (Sep 5, 2017)

jephjacques said:


> It's not on their configurator yet but I've seen a couple neck-through USA MIIs and even a USA neck-through Horizon popping up in stores like Axe Palace and Wild West Guitars. Innnnnnteresting...



The neck-thru M-II (M-II NTB) is most definitely in the configurator. There have also been some M-I's popping up, which probably isn't hard to get them to do, they just don't include a neck pickup.  The Horizon still appears from time to time, I think some of the dealers can probably get them to do one for them.


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 7, 2017)

Zado said:


> Some crazy prices there, expecially that 3k Friedman (whicj isn t anything special spec wise) and the 7.6k Macassar Suhr



Yeah they're not cheap, but they're a "high end" shop with a showroom and you can book meetings with them to try expensive stuff. Plus, the price of rent is stupid where they are, most music shops in Paris and around are struggling because of that. A mortar shop can't compete with Thomann on prices, so they try to offer services to differentiate themselves.


----------



## absolutorigin (Sep 8, 2017)

Never liked ESP guitars since the beginning. Excellent quality and craftsmanship no doubt, but something about their guitars always put me off. But that's just my end.


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## feraledge (Sep 8, 2017)

absolutorigin said:


> Never liked ESP guitars since the beginning. Excellent quality and craftsmanship no doubt, but something about their guitars always put me off. But that's just my end.


I mean, they're no Wylde Audio...


----------



## FitRocker33 (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm still struggling to figure out why the logo on the headstock is so game changing to many players. 

I'll admit I too was pissed when they replaced ESP with EII. Kinda felt like I was spending ESP std money but getting LTD street cred so to speak. 

However, after playing my Horizon III I quickly realized i was not getting any less of a guitar in any way shape or form. I learned to overlook the logo much the same way one learns to love a fat girl for her personality lmao


----------



## iamaom (Sep 9, 2017)

FitRocker33 said:


> I'll admit I too was pissed when they replaced ESP with EII. Kinda felt like I was spending ESP std money but getting LTD street cred so to speak.


Brand recognition and loyalty are a huge thing with musicians for some reason, not just with ESP. There are folks over at talkbass that will hand build an instrument from scratch and then stick a Fender logo on it. Though it goes the other way too, Guthrie stopped playing Suhr for a few concerts and they threw a hissy fit and took his sig model down.


----------



## absolutorigin (Sep 9, 2017)

Double


----------



## absolutorigin (Sep 9, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I mean, they're no Wylde Audio...



Well, no shit . Does anyone actually care about Wylde Audio? Irrelevant in this whole thing, but ESP might as well be Wylde Audio in my head as I just don't care for them . Obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit here.


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 10, 2017)

" a bit" might be the understatement of the millenium here


----------



## Humbuck (Sep 10, 2017)

FitRocker33 said:


> I'm still struggling to figure out why the logo on the headstock is so game changing to many players.
> 
> I'll admit I too was pissed when they replaced ESP with EII. Kinda felt like I was spending ESP std money but getting LTD street cred so to speak.



You asked and answered the question right there.


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 19, 2017)

feraledge said:


> You haven't felt my custom. It just... really gets me.
> 
> 
> You start out talking about an ESP that has LTD on the headstock and how it lead you to the magic. If you think what the headstock says is the magic, I don't get the magic.
> ...



Yeah so maybe i didnt explain myself properly, as a teenager theres no way i could afford an ESP so the next best thing was the LTD but i still longed for the legit thing. Later in life i was able to achieve that with SV. Now when i look at an E-II it does not make me feel the same way ESP's did. ITs part of how the guitar looks, which is massive deciding factor on why anyone buys guitar. I know you love Esp, iv seen all your Posts about esp, but heres the thing. Its fine to take an objective opinion about things you like.


----------



## Ikke (Sep 20, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> Yeah so maybe i didnt explain myself properly, as a teenager theres no way i could afford an ESP so the next best thing was the LTD but i still longed for the legit thing. Later in life i was able to achieve that with SV. Now when i look at an E-II it does not make me feel the same way ESP's did. ITs part of how the guitar looks, which is massive deciding factor on why anyone buys guitar. I know you love Esp, iv seen all your Posts about esp, but heres the thing. Its fine to take an objective opinion about things you like.



Your anecdote is subjective, no? Then you end by saying “take an objective opinion”. Did you mean to say subjective? Not being condescending, just asking.


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## Andromalia (Sep 20, 2017)

Well, let's be honest, most people here discovered ESP though Metallica playing them. That ESP logo (the old one) is an icon in its own right, compounded by the fact that most of us didn't have the money to buy those at the time. I don't know about the USA, but ESPs in the 90es were ******* expensive, I remember trying a KH2 through an ADA MP2 and nearly fainting when I got told the price. There was a custom V thing that cost more than a month of a very well off person salary. (12K francs in 1992, that's 2K€, with inflation it would likely reach today's customs 6K)


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## Mathemagician (Sep 20, 2017)

Yep. I'll buy an E-II if it's exactly what I want. But it won't "look as cool" as if it said ESP on the headstock. 

However, anyone dumb enough to think the quality differs at all between an E-II and an old standard series probably works at guitar center.


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## Zado (Sep 20, 2017)

Let's say the name itself wont help against the akward feeling of spending big money on a less than excellent instrument.
I mean, "LTD"s were called this way to make em look somehow Limited, Deluxe (and though they are not, the name still is somehow catchy, works)..."E-II" sounds more like "you're gettin a 2k second choice" ( which they are, compared to Original series, but not very smart make the thing this noticeable).


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## feraledge (Sep 20, 2017)

The Standard Series left us at the end of 2012. We've known about E-II since 2013. The guitars are the same, sometimes the prices are cheaper. We get hardshell cases included now. 
Seriously, it's been five years. What's the statute of limitations on crying about how your ex is gone when your new partner is here to stay?


----------



## Mathemagician (Sep 20, 2017)

Ask the people who still say they won't buy one due to the name. I want one of several M series right now. I'm just holding out for a reverse blade headstock. I'm only 28, I got time ESP.


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## eightsixboy (Sep 20, 2017)

feraledge said:


> The Standard Series left us at the end of 2012. We've known about E-II since 2013. The guitars are the same, sometimes the prices are cheaper. We get hardshell cases included now.
> Seriously, it's been five years. What's the statute of limitations on crying about how your ex is gone when your new partner is here to stay?



I don't get it either, its just a logo, if people are buying ESP because of a name on the headstock then aren't they buying them for the wrong reasons? End of the day the E-II guitars are great quality, albeit a little bland at times


----------



## FitRocker33 (Sep 20, 2017)

I say fuck it all, I'm just gonna sell all my pointy guitars and have an arsenal of flower shaped Daisy Rock guitars. Who's with Me??!


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 20, 2017)

ESP or EII on the hadstock the vintage Black Ecllipse is still the sex. Totally would satisfy my black beauty fetish and its just sooo slick.


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## skewkus13 (Sep 20, 2017)

Ikke said:


> Your anecdote is subjective, no? Then you end by saying “take an objective opinion”. Did you mean to say subjective? Not being condescending, just asking.


 subjective, objective, gold jacket green jacket, who gives a s%^T. I love esp, hell id own an E2 if it came up at a great price, i actually own an Edwards flying V i picked up in japan for 500$ feels better than any gibson v iv tried at stores. My point is, even though i love esp it is my opinion that e-2 on the headstock takes away some of the nostalgia for me. and since i wont be able to afford to drop 5 or 6 k on a USA or Original series, its just disappointing. Its not a personal attack at ESP lol.


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## skewkus13 (Sep 20, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> I don't get it either, its just a logo, if people are buying ESP because of a name on the headstock then aren't they buying them for the wrong reasons? End of the day the E-II guitars are great quality, albeit a little bland at times


Not really, its like going out to buy a ferrari but only being able to get it in standard white. But if you pay more you can have it in ferrari red. you can still buy it and drive it and it handles and performs just like all the other ferrari's great. But is the feeling when you walk up to get into it the same as if it was the iconic ferrari red. ?


----------



## feraledge (Sep 20, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> Not really, its like going out to buy a ferrari but only being able to get it in standard white. But if you pay more you can have it in ferrari red. you can still buy it and drive it and it handles and performs just like all the other ferrari's great. But is the feeling when you walk up to get into it the same as if it was the iconic ferrari red. ?


Nothing about this comparison is anywhere near correct.


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## Zado (Sep 21, 2017)

Maybe Ferrari should make a cheaper line called F-2, I'd get one!


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## FitRocker33 (Sep 21, 2017)

Zado said:


> Maybe Ferrari should make a cheaper line called F-2, I'd get one!



No they'll make a line for the United States market and it'll be called F-U 2. Pun intended? You be the judge.


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## eightsixboy (Sep 21, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> Not really, its like going out to buy a ferrari but only being able to get it in standard white. But if you pay more you can have it in ferrari red. you can still buy it and drive it and it handles and performs just like all the other ferrari's great. But is the feeling when you walk up to get into it the same as if it was the iconic ferrari red. ?



Not the same comparison.

If you pay more for the ESP over the E-II you are getting a different guitar completely. E-II is just the same as the ESP originals, that's kind of the point.

You are still getting the "ESP" only the logo is different, it would be like wanting to buy a Ferrari F360 but now its called a G850, just because it doesn't say F360 shouldn't stop you from buying it if its exactly the same car. 

A better analogy would be something along the lines of, "you can by the same car as last year, for a little less but with a different badge on it, or you can spend a decent amount more, for something completely different but you will have the badge you really want".


----------



## Rawkmann (Sep 21, 2017)

This thread is giving me GAS for that E-ii Horizon at our local guitar shop. Probably going to be an NGD coming soon if I can work out a trade with them today for it lol.


----------



## Womb raider (Sep 21, 2017)

Man, I hate the E-ii thing myself, but some of you are acting like you can't get the ESP logo at an affordable price. I've been snapping up Standard Series stuff for the last 3 years at ridiculous prices. There are some real gems out there. Last cop a few months ago was an Amberburst eclipse 2 for 650 on Craigslist.
For the record, I own E-ii eclipse as well. She plays real nice but doesn't look quite right on the head.


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## JD27 (Sep 21, 2017)

I actually like the additional decals on the E-II Eclipse headstock better.


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## angl2k (Sep 21, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> Not the same comparison.
> 
> If you pay more for the ESP over the E-II you are getting a different guitar completely. E-II is just the same as the ESP originals, that's kind of the point.



Let's not make this more confusing, E-II is the replacement for the ESP _standard_ line, not the ESP _original_ line. The ESP original line is of higher quality than the old ESP standard and the E-II line.


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## eightsixboy (Sep 21, 2017)

angl2k said:


> Let's not make this more confusing, E-II is the replacement for the ESP _standard_ line, not the ESP _original_ line. The ESP original line is of higher quality than the old ESP standard and the E-II line.



I'm sure people know what I meant. ESP standard>E-II.

It is way to confusing now tbh, whilst I don't care about the whole E-II thing it would have been easier and less messy for them if they just left things alone. I wonder how many sales they have lost because of the this?


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## feraledge (Sep 21, 2017)

You mean ESP standard = EII.
Forum people are complaining, but we do that anyways.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 21, 2017)

JD27 said:


> I actually like the additional decals on the E-II Eclipse headstock better.



Truth, looks similar to the Les Paul Custom Split Diamond almost, so on the vintage black one it looks stellar.


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 21, 2017)

feraledge said:


> Nothing about this comparison is anywhere near correct.


Based on what grounds? Im not saying E-II are bad guitars. Im saying FOR ME without esp on the head stock it changes the way i feel about the guitar. That is all. I WOULD OWN AN E-II. Not disputing the quality, playability craftsmanship ect. For example. 
The PRS SE line never used to Have Paul Reed Smith on the headstock until 2017. why do you think they changed that?????


----------



## possumkiller (Sep 21, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> The PRS SE line never used to Have Paul Reed Smith on the headstock until 2017.



Bird inlays and a signature logo? I'll wait until they add the dished carve top next year.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 21, 2017)

JD27 said:


> I actually like the additional decals on the E-II Eclipse headstock better.


For real, if you hate this, it's not EII, it's you:


----------



## feraledge (Sep 21, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> Based on what grounds? Im not saying E-II are bad guitars. Im saying FOR ME without esp on the head stock it changes the way i feel about the guitar. That is all. I WOULD OWN AN E-II. Not disputing the quality, playability craftsmanship ect. For example.
> The PRS SE line never used to Have Paul Reed Smith on the headstock until 2017. why do you think they changed that?????


EIIs are fine guitars, but there's a lot of difference between them and Customs/Originals beyond what it says on the headstock and color options.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 21, 2017)

I think the word original got used wrongly, and he meant the old standards, as opposed to original series.


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## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> EIIs are fine guitars, but there's a lot of difference between them and Customs/Originals beyond what it says on the headstock and color options.


Oh FFS dude. You called out my original post about esp taking the logo off THE STANDARD SERIES. and changing it to E-II. No other differences. To which i stated. I dont feel the same way about the guitar? Nothing to do with original/custom.


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

..


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> EIIs are fine guitars, but there's a lot of difference between them and Customs/Originals beyond what it says on the headstock and color options.


You have an esp custom. Based on your comments we can say you would have no problem taking that out and having it refinished with E-II on the headstock. It will still have esp custom on the back so all good.


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## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> You have an esp custom. Based on your comments we can say you would have no problem taking that out and having it refinished with E-II on the headstock. It will still have esp custom on the back so all good.



Your comparisons/analogies/examples aren’t making any sense. And again, I’m not trying to be condescending, so please don’t take it that way. But, the above example doesn’t make any sense either.


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

Ikke said:


> Your comparisons/analogies/examples aren’t making any sense. And again, I’m not trying to be condescending, so please don’t take it that way. But, the above example doesn’t make any sense either.


How does that not makes sense? He says the logo makes no difference to the guitar. So hypothetically speaking, he would have no problem getting the headstock of his esp custom refinished with E-ii instead of esp. 

What doesn't make sense about that? And your passive aggressive comments are condescending. Iv seen other posts where you use the same wording. Im done arguing with fanboys of a brand that im a fanboy off! Sheesh. God forbid anyone voices a personal opinion about a product someone else holds in high esteem.


----------



## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> How does that not makes sense? He says the logo makes no difference to the guitar. So hypothetically speaking, he would have no problem getting the headstock of his esp custom refinished with E-ii instead of esp.
> 
> What doesn't make sense about that? And your passive aggressive comments are condescending. Iv seen other posts where you use the same wording. Im done arguing with fanboys of a brand that im a fanboy off! Sheesh. God forbid anyone voices a personal opinion about a product someone else holds in high esteem.



I don’t think any of us are fanboying, as we have stated many times (maybe not here) things we don’t like about ESP. 

Your analogy doesn’t make any sense because he, I, and many others paid top dollar for our customs new. And, you can be sure, the cost we paid includes the cost of putting “ESP” on the headstock. 

*It would then make sense if he were upset if someone put an E-II logo on the headstock of his ESP custom because...that’s not what he paid for: he paid for an ESP Custom, not an E-II custom.* That isn’t to say he’s going to up and stop playing it. Only he can answer that. I mean at the end of the day, a fine guitar is a fine guitar though.

You can feel however you want to feel about E-II. It’s your opinion and that’s clear to everyone. And you can be sure we’ve all heard similar complaints. It’s the analogies your using to explain your opinions don’t make any sense. Not the opinion, as Raider has a similar opinion and I think he gets treated just fine(?). Just the analogy. That’s all I was saying at least. 

And I apologize if you feel like you’re getting attacked on all ends by “fanboys”. At the end of the day, more ESP guys and gals is a good thing. You don’t have to accept it, but it is sincere. 

TLDR: Your opinion is fine. Your analogies/explanations/examples to explain your opinion don’t make any sense.


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## eelblack2 (Sep 22, 2017)

These are a fantastic choice from the USA shop. Trems available shortly too. I've got a bunch of M3's too from there.


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## JD27 (Sep 22, 2017)

That green one is sick! Love my USA TE-II.


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## eelblack2 (Sep 22, 2017)

Or some kinkier 7 string choices.


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## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

I really the Ruby one on the very bottom. What an awesome color.

EDIT with the picture from eelblack2


----------



## NickS (Sep 22, 2017)

eelblack2 said:


>



That is amazing!!


----------



## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

I would really love to see one of the PT's in person. They must be so sparkly. And I love sparkly.


----------



## JD27 (Sep 22, 2017)

This is what is currently going on.


----------



## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

JD27 said:


> This is what is currently going on.



You have great guitars and a great floor.


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## JD27 (Sep 22, 2017)

Ikke said:


> You have great guitars and a great floor.



Custom shop whitewashed oak floor!


----------



## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

Let the ESP lovefest commence! Someone send a raven to Feral!


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

Ikke said:


> I don’t think any of us are fanboying, as we have stated many times (maybe not here) things we don’t like about ESP.
> 
> Your analogy doesn’t make any sense because he, I, and many others paid top dollar for our customs new. And, you can be sure, the cost we paid includes the cost of putting “ESP” on the headstock.
> 
> ...


Ok i can deal with that. Sorry if my analogies were confusing. And i dont want to argue with anyone. I just felt that my initial post was belittled because i didnt like the e-ii thing. Will try to post with more clarity in the future. Peace.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> How does that not makes sense? He says the logo makes no difference to the guitar. So hypothetically speaking, he would have no problem getting the headstock of his esp custom refinished with E-ii instead of esp.
> 
> What doesn't make sense about that? And your passive aggressive comments are condescending. Iv seen other posts where you use the same wording. Im done arguing with fanboys of a brand that im a fanboy off! Sheesh. God forbid anyone voices a personal opinion about a product someone else holds in high esteem.


@Ikke got this well covered. I'm saying E-IIs are fine guitars. I've owned four now (I think??) and I'll own more. I've had two LTD Elites, probably 15 or so ESP Standards, three customs (of which I still own, as I forever will, one). I'm not dissing on the brands, I'm just pointing out that there are differences in the tiers. By ESP's own standards, they want to reserve "ESP" for the headstocks of custom shop built instruments (which includes the Original and USA lines). The name comes with the tier and I'm pretty comfortable saying that anything from the customs to the 400 series LTDs are fine guitars, but some are much better than others.
Not trying to beat a dead horse here. I think the confusion has been mostly settled. So back to the sick guitars and my sheer envy of @eelblack2 's acquisitions.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

Ikke said:


> Let the ESP lovefest commence! Someone send a raven to Feral!


I so very much support this. 
I'm a bit out from being able to get another Custom/Original/US ESP, but I'm always looking, always planning. Still shopping custom quotes too, at this point, payments over a year period is going to be the wiser move, I'm just not permitting myself to use credit cards anymore. 
Give it time, we all know I'll be back. 
That said, I'll proudly say what I think every single day for the past year+, my Custom shop Horizon is the best guitar in the world. I have absolutely no regrets. It's perfect.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

JD27 said:


> This is what is currently going on.


Let's get that Page and Donais in there too!! 
Actually, we should get a whole wall shot again since you're pretty much covering the epic ESP gamut these days.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Sep 22, 2017)

http://www.espguitars.com/products/19080-bb-600-baritone?category_id=1968968-ben-burnley




I NEEEED IT


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## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> @Ikke got this well covered. I'm saying E-IIs are fine guitars. I've owned four now (I think??) and I'll own more. I've had two LTD Elites, probably 15 or so ESP Standards, three customs (of which I still own, as I forever will, one). I'm not dissing on the brands, I'm just pointing out that there are differences in the tiers. By ESP's own standards, they want to reserve "ESP" for the headstocks of custom shop built instruments (which includes the Original and USA lines). You name comes with the tier and I'm pretty comfortable saying that anything from the customs to the 400 series LTDs are fine guitars, but some are much better than others.
> Not trying to beat a dead horse here. I think the confusion has been mostly settled. So back to the sick guitars and my sheer envy of @eelblack2 's acquisitions.


Yep. Thats all good except most of it has nothing to do with the context of your first reply to my original comment. But lets just move on.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

Good time to get back on my "post at least once every six months" perma-GAS contributions:


----------



## FitRocker33 (Sep 22, 2017)

My god those USA model 7s caused me to need an underwear change. Total sexy.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

While we're on the subject...


----------



## NickS (Sep 22, 2017)

Most of us have seen that thing many times before, but it never gets old!! Beautiful

Also, fitting that your 5,000th post was a pic of it!


----------



## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> While we're on the subject...


incredible dude. Basically my grail guitar. Though a green stain instead. Can i ask. is there a noticeable build difference compared eII or es standard series. Or are you just paying for the custom experiance? Id Totally pay just fyi. if i had that cash to drop. One of these days !! haha


----------



## JD27 (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> Let's get that Page and Donais in there too!!
> Actually, we should get a whole wall shot again since you're pretty much covering the epic ESP gamut these days.



Yup, maybe if there is some actual sunlight in the house tomorrow.



feraledge said:


> Good time to get back on my "post at least once every six months" perma-GAS contributions:



Still my favorite Horizon ever.


----------



## Womb raider (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> While we're on the subject...


I stumbled on this article a while back and recognized your guitar listed at number 3. Something about those pictures of an esp on the workbench gets my gas going.
http://www.wiredguitarist.com/2016/11/15/5-esp-custom-shop-guitars-that-we-all-need/


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

Womb raider said:


> I stumbled on this article a while back and recognized your guitar listed at number 3. Something about those pictures of an esp on the workbench gets my gas going.
> http://www.wiredguitarist.com/2016/11/15/5-esp-custom-shop-guitars-that-we-all-need/


That's hilarious. And accurate. There should be an EII model. I'd buy one. Or two.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> incredible dude. Basically my grail guitar. Though a green stain instead. Can i ask. is there a noticeable build difference compared eII or es standard series. Or are you just paying for the custom experiance? Id Totally pay just fyi. if i had that cash to drop. One of these days !! haha


Huge difference. Attention to detail, quality of the woods is massive. That top is very 3D and not disappointing from any angle. The fret ends are the best I've ever seen. 
How do you value the custom experience? I do a lot. So things like alder body, maple neck thru, the satin extra thin U neck profile... Naturally that's worth more to me because this has been my dream guitar for years. Over a year later and I love it as much if not more. 
So objectively speaking, if anyone picked it up off the rack and didn't see the marking, it's easy to see this is above the EII/Standard line. Whether most people would say it's worth it would probably come down to how much they like my specs. Absolutely worth it to me and I really doubt anyone who has an internet in ESP would pick it up and not be impressed.


----------



## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

Doubled


----------



## Womb raider (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> That's hilarious. And accurate. There should be an EII model. I'd buy one. Or two.


Maybe you could round up a couple guys to throw down on a special run. But then again, it's hard to get anyone to agree on specs. I recall a seafoam green horizon run before.. did anything come of that?


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## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

Womb raider said:


> Maybe you could round up a couple guys to throw down on a special run. But then again, it's hard to get anyone to agree on specs. I recall a seafoam green horizon run before.. did anything come of that?


I have a couple ideas I'd like to work through as well, the seafoam among them. Idea was shelved mostly due to lack of dealers worth working with. So nothing but so far. I'm still working on some ideas and in roads.


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## Womb raider (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I have a couple ideas I'd like to work through as well, the seafoam among them. Idea was shelved mostly due to lack of dealers worth working with. So nothing but so far. I'm still working on some ideas and in roads.


Well, you can always go the custom route. You won't have to pay the piper for at least a year. Kidding.. sort of


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## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> incredible dude. Basically my grail guitar. Though a green stain instead. Can i ask. is there a noticeable build difference compared eII or es standard series. Or are you just paying for the custom experiance? Id Totally pay just fyi. if i had that cash to drop. One of these days !! haha



In addition to what Feral said, the Horizon Custom, USA, & Standard/E-II all have a slightly different carve style and body thickness from each other. You can see the horn carves are different. The difference is subtle but discernable. The USA top carve is closer to a Standard/E-II carve, and its body is thicker than the STD/EII. The Custom top carve is unique to the Custom and body thickness on production customs will vary depending on the year.

EDIT: Just to add, from what I know of Feral's HCS, it's design is closest to a Horizon-II style CTM.

Standard/E-II







USA







Custom


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## feraledge (Sep 22, 2017)

FYI, @Ikke my custom is standard thickness. Not CTM.


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## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

feraledge said:


> FYI, @Ikke my custom is standard thickness. Not CTM.



I should've made clear, I'm making a distinction between the Horizon-II CTM and the Horizon CTM (2016 - present). I probably wasn't clear about that lol.

I was trying to say your Horizon is styled after Horizon-II CTM (from 1995 - 2013ish). Looks like I failed at that lol. I need to go to bed.

For others I may have confused. Not directed @feraledge (I know you know this stuff already)

This is a Horizon-II (The Horizon II-NT is a different guitar)





This is the first Horizon-CTM (CTM = Custom Traditional Model = Horizon-II + Quilt/Flame Top = Horizon-II CTM). CTM just means it's somehow modified from another model. For example, an M-II CTM is a Custom M-II Deluxe. 






This is the new Horizon-CTM (2016ish - present) but it's more like CTM of the first CTM as its built way different from the first one.


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## skewkus13 (Sep 22, 2017)

Ikke said:


> In addition to what Feral said, the Horizon Custom, USA, & Standard/E-II all have a slightly different carve style and body thickness from each other. You can see the horn carves are different. The difference is subtle but discernable. The USA top carve is closer to a Standard/E-II carve, and its body is thicker than the STD/EII. The Custom top carve is unique to the Custom and body thickness on production customs will vary depending on the year.
> 
> EDIT: Just to add, from what I know of Feral's HCS, it's design is closest to a Horizon-II style CTM.
> 
> ...


Is it just the lighting or does the hand carve on the lower horn look a little more subtle on the USA and E-ii??
Sidenote. Love me some Reindeer blue. Odd name for a dark purple though haha. Coz japan thats why.


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## Ikke (Sep 22, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> Is it just the lighting or does the hand carve on the lower horn look a little more subtle on the USA and E-ii??
> Sidenote. Love me some Reindeer blue. Odd name for a dark purple though haha. Coz japan thats why.



The Custom is the only one with a hand carve (it's a deep cutout). The lower horn carves on the USA and EII are non-functional and for looks only (shallow cuts like the upper horn carve). Not really (meant to be) hand carves, just body cuts to accentuate the archtop.

And yeah reindeer blue has never made any sense to me either.


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## couverdure (Sep 23, 2017)

All these guitars in this thread makes me wish I was an ESP fanboy instead of Ibanez. I've only ever seen up to mid-end LTDs here in my country and those don't seem to do it for me.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 23, 2017)

skewkus13 said:


> Is it just the lighting or does the hand carve on the lower horn look a little more subtle on the USA and E-ii??
> Sidenote. Love me some Reindeer blue. Odd name for a dark purple though haha. Coz japan thats why.


i've seen some reindeer blue esps that actually look more blueish. Probably just depends on the lighting and who was dyeing the top.


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## prlgmnr (Sep 23, 2017)

feraledge said:


>



I need your clothes, your boots, and your guitar.


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## skewkus13 (Sep 23, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> i've seen some reindeer blue esps that actually look more blueish. Probably just depends on the lighting and who was dyeing the top.


Hahaha its not the blue part thats confusing. Its the reindeer part. lol


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## skewkus13 (Sep 23, 2017)

couverdure said:


> All these guitars in this thread makes me wish I was an ESP fanboy instead of Ibanez. I've only ever seen up to mid-end LTDs here in my country and those don't seem to do it for me.


Why not be both. I am. haha


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## Andromalia (Sep 25, 2017)

Just to add a grain of salt to what Feraledge said. Own opinion, not worth more than anyone else's but here's what I think.
I currently own 1 ESP standard, 1 ESP Craft House small run and an ESP Original (this one: http://www.musicaudioshop.com/esp-g...e-transparent-guitares-electriques_p14952.htm I luckily paid 1999€ for it during winter sales last january, was a totally unplanned "I can't miss that" buy.)

The Craft House is among them the inferior instrument. Mind you, it's good, but it's just good.
The Standard (it's a Viper) and the ultratone are VERY close in quality. Both feel like they'd win a contest with the ground after a 50m drop. Note that viper is the "true" one, with dot inlays, ebony board and set neck.
Both of those guitars are in the same league as my Jackson CS or my Amfisound. Basically the best money can buy while not forking out stupid money for pretty woods. (Ok, the ultratone wood although nothing special in terms of species *is* very pretty)

I haven't found that level of quality in EIIs. So, maybe I was lucky with my Viper (bought it off for 700$ which was 560ish€ at the time from a guy in the Dean forum) but there are some phenomenal guitars to be had there, and every 90-2005 ESP I played has been stupidly good. I still want to buy a KH2 from those times someday, it was the guitar that addicted me to ESP when I tried it in a shop.


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## JD27 (Sep 25, 2017)

I know the Craft House are custom, but where they exactly fit in the Custom Shop order, I don't know. I know you can get really crazy stuff from them, pretty sure they are for the Japan market only as far as ordering though. I've seen Jackson style headstocks on them.


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## Blytheryn (Sep 25, 2017)

JD27 said:


> I know the Craft House are custom, but where they exactly fit in the Custom Shop order, I don't know. I know you can get really crazy stuff from them, pretty sure they are for the Japan market only as far as ordering though. I've seen Jackson style headstocks on them.



From what I've heard the craft house is where all the real artist sigs for the big hitters are made, not in the normal custom shops. I heard from Alexi Laiho's tech that Alexi's actual sig ESP with the new album's artwork on it cost around 12,000 dollars. Not that he had to pick up the tab...


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## Andromalia (Sep 26, 2017)

JD27 said:


> I know the Craft House are custom, but where they exactly fit in the Custom Shop order, I don't know. I know you can get really crazy stuff from them, pretty sure they are for the Japan market only as far as ordering though. I've seen Jackson style headstocks on them.



Mine is a pink SV with the Jackson headstock and sharkfin inlays. Bought it from Meestursparkle a few years back. I think I did a NGD about it here.

http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...on-and-a-few-copyrights-infringements.171045/


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## feraledge (Sep 26, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> Mine is a pink SV with the Jackson headstock and sharkfin inlays. Bought it from Meestursparkle a few years back. I think I did a NGD about it here.
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...on-and-a-few-copyrights-infringements.171045/


That's sick as hell.


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## BangandBreach (Sep 26, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> Mine is a pink SV with the Jackson headstock and sharkfin inlays. Bought it from Meestursparkle a few years back. I think I did a NGD about it here.
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...on-and-a-few-copyrights-infringements.171045/


Is there anyway you could rehost those images? It sounds rad af but I can't seem them.


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## theicon2125 (Sep 26, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> Mine is a pink SV with the Jackson headstock and sharkfin inlays. Bought it from Meestursparkle a few years back. I think I did a NGD about it here.
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...on-and-a-few-copyrights-infringements.171045/



Is there a trick to opening Photobucket images on here like there is for imgur?


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## feraledge (Sep 26, 2017)

I can open it on my phone, but not my computer. Like 70 pics in there too.


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## theicon2125 (Sep 27, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I can open it on my phone, but not my computer. Like 70 pics in there too.


Oh damn that is hot


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## angl2k (Sep 27, 2017)

Anyone seen this seafoam green tele?





http://www.guitarfactory.com.au/Guitars/Electric/ESP/E-II/t-b7-seafoam-green-limited-edition

I'm gas'ing hard right now


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## Athor (Sep 27, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I can open it on my phone, but not my computer. Like 70 pics in there too.


This. This! THIS!


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## JD27 (Sep 27, 2017)

angl2k said:


> Anyone seen this seafoam green tele?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man that is sick, I sold my DC7X in hopes of replacing it with a TB-7 or Horizon NT-7B. This would just be way too much to import though.


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## angl2k (Sep 27, 2017)

JD27 said:


> Man that is sick, I sold my DC7X in hopes of replacing it with a TB-7 or Horizon NT-7B. This would just be way too much to import though.



If you import from Australia you can deduct the Australian sales tax so it might be less expensive than you think. It was 10% last time I remembered.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Sep 27, 2017)

Dang I wish that ESP would do that headstock in Europe/US.


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