# Introduction to Math Core riffing



## allstar990 (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey Everyone! I got my seven stringer a few days ago....can someone suggest me simple songs which will introduce me to math core kinda riffing...thanks!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 25, 2009)

My favourite Mathcore bands:

Ion Dissonance (Solace)
The Dillinger Escape Plan
The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza
Into The Moat
Protest The Hero (Fortress)
The Arusha Accord
Between The Buried And Me
SikTh


----------



## omgmjgg (Dec 25, 2009)

pretty much sums it up right there, i could only add one band really to that list and it would be

kissyface fashion faux pas
www.myspace.com/myspaceisgay

if you want to check them out really cool guys, and good friends


----------



## Esp Griffyn (Dec 25, 2009)

I've heard the term a million times, but will someone please define mathcore? From what I gather it about stacking odd meters together and using a lot of dissonant note choices to make something ultimately jarring.


----------



## hypermagic (Dec 25, 2009)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I've heard the term a million times, but will someone please define mathcore? From what I gather it about stacking odd meters together and using a lot of dissonant note choices to make something ultimately jarring.



You hit the nail on the head basically. 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/members/allstar990.html
allstar990:

Please check out Botch. They are Quintessential listening to the Math-core genre.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 25, 2009)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I've heard the term a million times, but will someone please define mathcore? From what I gather it about stacking odd meters together and using a lot of dissonant note choices to make something ultimately jarring.



Techy, spazzy, chaotic, unpredictable and very heavy. Ion Dissonance's 'Solace' and Into The Moat's 'The Design' are the genre's finest IMO.


----------



## Triple-J (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd also recommend the 1st Mudvayne album L.D.50 as unlike all their other albums it does cross into math territory also it's a bit of an odd choice but I'd say Helmet too as some of their stuff is straightforward but some of it's a nightmare to get used to in terms of timing and rhythm.


----------



## Esp Griffyn (Dec 25, 2009)

I will have to listen more extensively to this genre to try and get a better understanding of it. At the moment I can't help but feel it seems a bit contrived - like metalcore bands who deliberately work breakd0wns in left, right and centre rather than just writing naturally. I suppose a good listen to the genre will separate the naturalists from the copy cats.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 25, 2009)

Check out the two albums I recommended, I find both very enjoyable.

I find that Mathcore is actually less contrived as it's truer to the human emotions than songs that are constantly in 4/4, conforming to a pattern.


----------



## omgmjgg (Dec 25, 2009)

into the moat is incrediable, that's about all you can say about that band. SO talented


----------



## BrainArt (Dec 25, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Check out the two albums I recommended, I find both very enjoyable.
> 
> I find that Mathcore is actually less contrived as it's truer to the human emotions than songs that are constantly in 4/4, conforming to a pattern.



 I have a hard time staying in 4/4 or one set tempo, even when I have a drum machine going or a metronome. I guess that's why I feel comfortable listening to Mathcore, my cousin doesn't get it, though.


----------



## hypermagic (Dec 25, 2009)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I will have to listen more extensively to this genre to try and get a better understanding of it. At the moment I can't help but feel it seems a bit contrived - like metalcore bands who deliberately work breakd0wns in left, right and centre rather than just writing naturally. I suppose a good listen to the genre will separate the naturalists from the copy cats.




Try these albums out then:
Botch: American Nervoso
Botch: We Are the Romans
Converge: Jane Doe
The End: Transfer Trachea Reverberations from Point: False Omniscient
The End: Within Dividia
The Dillinger Escape Plan: S/t
The Dillinger Escape Plan: Under the Running Board
The Dillinger Escape Plan: Calculating Infinity
Ion Dissonance: Breathing is Irrelevant
Ion Dissonance: Solace
Into the Moat: The Design
Sikth: Death of a Dead Day


----------



## S-O (Dec 26, 2009)

Current math crush:

Car Bomb


----------



## abysmalrites (Dec 26, 2009)

I don't think we can recommend Ion Dissonance's Solace enough. That album slays so fucking hard.

I also posted a thread about The Great Scott Delorean. Might wanna check them out too.

Also, might want to check out Psychofagist.


----------



## Mindcrime1204 (Dec 26, 2009)

Just listened to about 30 seconds off each song from both albums by both bands recommended and lets just say... it's a LOT different than what I was expecting, lol. 

I guess I was expecting something with more memorable melody lines with the odd bits and off time pieces in between like sikth, veil of maya, and born of osiris do.

If this is math metal's finest, I'm not so sure math metal is for me


----------



## f2f4 (Dec 26, 2009)

It's kind of a love or hate thing. Personally, I've been drawn to it since before i ever heard the term "mathcore"

I just like the appeal of a somewhat no holds barred style


----------



## omgmjgg (Dec 26, 2009)

f2f4 said:


> It's kind of a love or hate thing. Personally, I've been drawn to it since before i ever heard the term "mathcore"
> 
> I just like the appeal of a somewhat no holds barred style



he speaks the truth, I've always been pulled in by how people can take madness and chaos, and pull them together and form a song out of it. I mean this style of music is mostly what i listen to and it just doesn't get old, or to me at least


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 26, 2009)

Mindcrime1204 said:


> Just listened to about 30 seconds off each song from both albums by both bands recommended and lets just say... it's a LOT different than what I was expecting, lol.
> 
> I guess I was expecting something with more memorable melody lines with the odd bits and off time pieces in between like sikth, veil of maya, and born of osiris do.
> 
> If this is math metal's finest, I'm not so sure math metal is for me



Mathcore isn't about melody or hooks. If you want Mathcore with hooks, check out The Arusha Accord.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Dec 26, 2009)

Triple-J said:


> I'd also recommend the 1st Mudvayne album L.D.50 as unlike all their other albums it does cross into math territory also it's a bit of an odd choice but I'd say Helmet too as some of their stuff is straightforward but some of it's a nightmare to get used to in terms of timing and rhythm.



LD 50 is a masterpiece. That is all.

Would you consider Iwrestledabearonce to be mathcore?


----------



## Esp Griffyn (Dec 26, 2009)

LD50 is one of the great albums of the decade, and even the genre (and by that I mean "metal" in general, its that good) but its a lot more involving and memorable than most of the stuff in this general mathcore pool.

I've been listening to the stuff reccomended in this thread, and I'm not in love with most of it. Sikth are pretty cool, and one of those guys has an awesome Blackmachine. However, I have for a long time now, been unable to forgive The Dillinger Escape Plan for their cover of Aphex Twin's IDM masterpiece "Come to daddy".

I suppose the concept of the genre is interesting; the lack of conformity to any kind of norm or necessity in composition allows for interesting prospects, but ultimately it sounds a bit incohorent a lot of time. Jazz fusion in my main musical interest (alongside Rammstein, an odd pairing) so I can fully understand bucking the trend of note and sclae choice, but whereas good jazz fusion musicians can take the sort of "chaos on a blank canvas" approach and create something astounding, loftily musical and yet still engaging, whereas I find listening to mathcore more akin to looking through the bars of a cell at a lunatic in a padded room having a spaz attack. Of course, this is no slight on the genre itself, only my personal feelings. If you enjoy this sort of thing then more power to you, but this is not for me


----------



## vampiregenocide (Dec 26, 2009)

Mathcore is a very chaotic style and definitely either one you love or hate more so that most kinds of music. I don't like all of it, but a few songs here and there are good.


----------



## InCasinoOut (Dec 26, 2009)

hypermagic said:


> Please check out Botch. They are Quintessential listening to the Math-core genre.


 Came here to post this. Obtain a copy of We Are The Romans and enjoy.


----------



## RawrItsRaptor (Dec 26, 2009)

We Are The Romans, is definitely worth checking out. They are little more technical than chaotic but, they have my favorite riff ever produced.\

EDIT: Oh, and I DO NOT mean We Are The Romans by Botch. I mean the band We Are The Romans.


----------



## Rick (Dec 26, 2009)

allstar990 said:


> Hey Everyone! I got my seven stringer a few days ago....can someone suggest me simple songs which will introduce me to math core kinda riffing...thanks!
> 
> MERRY CHRISTMAS!



Depends on what's considered "mathcore."


----------



## omgmjgg (Dec 26, 2009)

RawrItsRaptor said:


> We Are The Romans, is definitely worth checking out. They are little more technical than chaotic but, they have my favorite riff ever produced.\
> 
> EDIT: Oh, and I DO NOT mean We Are The Romans by Botch. I mean the band We Are The Romans.



i totally know which riff your talking about ahahhaha


----------



## xmetalhead69 (Dec 26, 2009)

I wouldnt call protest mathcore, they're way too melodic and awesome to be called math imho


----------



## DeathMetalDean (Dec 26, 2009)

I love sikth  a lot of amazin mathcore bands about, I don't think I've ever actually learnt a mathcore song ... I should be shot  I must get on it


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 27, 2009)

Alot of Math no core!

Alpha Trion (TRACKING OUR DEBUT ALBUM!!!) on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads


----------



## Universe74 (Dec 27, 2009)

From Vancouver...noice.


----------



## allstar990 (Dec 27, 2009)

I checked out the tabs of Ion Dissonance - oasd and i was like wtf?!!!! i mean...how can you come up with such stuff...its just fuckin brilliant...man i pity math core drummers


----------



## yetti (Dec 27, 2009)

vampiregenocide said:


> Would you consider Iwrestledabearonce to be mathcore?


 
ADHD-core........or as IWABO themselves put it, AIDScore.


----------



## Metal Ken (Dec 27, 2009)

Im gonna post my obligatory "Juke this noise, listen to Spiral Architect instead" post.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 27, 2009)

allstar990 said:


> I checked out the tabs of Ion Dissonance - oasd and i was like wtf?!!!! i mean...how can you come up with such stuff...its just fuckin brilliant...man i pity math core drummers





The Ion Dissonance drummer is insanely good. Played a show with them a few years back and they fucking slayed, one of the tightest bands I've ever seen live.


----------



## anne (Dec 27, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I find that Mathcore is actually less contrived as it's truer to the human emotions than songs that are constantly in 4/4, conforming to a pattern.



Predictability and regularity are more natural -- and more comfortable for most people -- than you are giving them credit for.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 27, 2009)

anne said:


> Predictability and regularity are more natural -- and more comfortable for most people -- than you are giving them credit for.



Says who? Remaining in standard 4/4 timing heavily limits what you can do. It may be easiest for most people to write in 4/4 but that doesn't mean it's more natural. Natural is whatever writing style is most comfortable for you - without restrictions.


----------



## jymellis (Dec 27, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Says who? Remaining in standard 4/4 timing heavily limits what you can do. It may be easiest for most people to write in 4/4 but that doesn't mean it's more natural. Natural is whatever writing style is most comfortable for you - without restrictions.


 
you have never tried to play with my brother in law he has NO clue what he is doing and has been playing for about 5 years. CANNOT keep a beat and follows notes with the worng notes if you understand what i mean


----------



## cvinos (Dec 27, 2009)

Also Car Bomb from Long Island. Released the ultra heavy work "Centralia" with Relapse Records in 2005.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Dec 27, 2009)

cvinos said:


> Also Car Bomb from Long Island. Released the ultra heavy work "Centralia" with Relapse Records in 2005.




Centralia was 2007 but yeah it's an awesome album


----------



## anne (Dec 27, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Says who? Remaining in standard 4/4 timing heavily limits what you can do. It may be easiest for most people to write in 4/4 but that doesn't mean it's more natural. Natural is whatever writing style is most comfortable for you - without restrictions.



Says anyone who wants to dance? That said, I write unmetered because I'm wont to change time signatures without even thinking. But that clearly doesn't work for the vast majority of music-listening humanity.


----------



## omgmjgg (Dec 27, 2009)

not to sound like a prick when i say this, but i didn't know we were out to write music specifically for people to dance to? I mean when I write, I write music I would enjoy listening to.... I guess i missed that bulletin


----------



## Customisbetter (Dec 27, 2009)

sikth and The Fall of Troy


----------



## RawrItsRaptor (Dec 27, 2009)

omgmjgg said:


> i totally know which riff your talking about ahahhaha


hahaha if you do than that riff makes me wanna bounce off of walls....or watch stepbrothers; whichever comes first.


----------



## anne (Dec 28, 2009)

omgmjgg said:


> not to sound like a prick when i say this, but i didn't know we were out to write music specifically for people to dance to? I mean when I write, I write music I would enjoy listening to.... I guess i missed that bulletin



not to sound like a prick when i say this, but dancing obv isn't the crux of the argument. to say that 4/4 is less true to "human emotion" is a put-down to a lot of excellent music that has been around for a very long time and that sounds very 'natural'. strictly metered and unmetered music can both sound natural or contrived -- it depends on a lot of things happening between performer, composer, and listener. trying to fit a pattern is just as bad as trying to fit an 'unpattern'. the pattern/unpattern should fit you, not vice versa.


----------



## omgmjgg (Dec 28, 2009)

guess i just took it the wrong way, or maybe how you worded it. It just made me get the feel like you were saying we should make music for people to dance to and i was like  lol

my bad man!



RawrItsRaptor said:


> hahaha if you do than that riff makes me wanna bounce off of walls....or watch stepbrothers; whichever comes first.



you are talking about the riff Jerry does in the guitar 2.5 video right?


----------



## ToniS (Dec 28, 2009)

Sikth still is the best in this genre IMO, they have a perfect blend of everything.


----------



## EliNoPants (Dec 28, 2009)

Sleepytime Gorilla Museum anyone?
not really math-CORE, but they do some insane shit


----------



## hypermagic (Dec 31, 2009)

Glad to see this thread still rolling, To the naysayers and people in the "eh..." camp:

I know it's kind of hard to appreciate it when you're on the outside looking in. But it's like a level in mario or something where you have to run through the level and dodge whatever is trying to kill your Italian ass while jumping platform to platform. It's a challenge to sit there to pick out grooves out of the furious tremolo picked gutiar parts, bottom-sting bends and double bass, cymbal and snare interplay. It's what I love about it; it's furious, violent and passionately kicking your ass all over the place.

Take from that what you will.


----------



## BrainArt (Dec 31, 2009)

hypermagic said:


> Glad to see this thread still rolling, To the naysayers and people in the "eh..." camp:
> 
> I know it's kind of hard to appreciate it when you're on the outside looking in. But it's like a level in mario or something where you have to run through the level and dodge whatever is trying to kill your Italian ass while jumping platform to platform. It's a challenge to sit there to pick out grooves out of the furious tremolo picked gutiar parts, bottom-sting bends and double bass, cymbal and snare interplay. It's what I love about it; it's furious, violent and passionately kicking your ass all over the place.
> 
> Take from that what you will.



I don't know, I have no problem finding a groove in Mathcore.  I'm weird, though.


----------



## hypermagic (Dec 31, 2009)

IbanezShredderB said:


> I don't know, I have no problem finding a groove in Mathcore.  I'm weird, though.



Well neither do I, I'm just trying to convey some sort of useful metaphor to people who can't really find anything enjoyable from the music.


----------



## BrainArt (Dec 31, 2009)

hypermagic said:


> Well neither do I, I'm just trying to convey some sort of useful metaphor to people who can't really find anything enjoyable from the music.



True. I know what you mean, I thought my cousin when I bought Danza II the other night was going to hate it, but he actually enjoyed it. His gf is still a bit iffy about it.


----------



## omgmjgg (Jan 1, 2010)

hahaha
I've always just been drawn to the more tech bands or mathcore which ever you prefer to call them. I just think they are very creative with their riffing and song writing more than other bands in other genres, but that is just my 2 cents on the subject


----------



## EliNoPants (Jan 1, 2010)

math/tech/etc. -core/metal is just like any other style, there's shitty stuff and there's good stuff...within this style, the shitty ones are making things mindlessly complex and totally lacking in groove, the really good ones are just the dudes who sit down and play, and when they work it all out, it just happens to be crazy technical, and then somehow they manage to make it fall into a pocket


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 1, 2010)

hypermagic said:


> It's what I love about it; it's furious, violent and passionately kicking your ass all over the place.





One thing that always drew me to Math music is how it's so different. I can't tell you how sick I get of predictable 4/4 riffing. When I watch a film, I don't want to predict how it plays out, it's no different with music.



omgmjgg said:


> I've always just been drawn to the more tech bands or mathcore which ever you prefer to call them. I just think they are very creative with their riffing and song writing more than other bands in other genres, but that is just my 2 cents on the subject



Exactly, it's more creative to me than other genres and for the most part more sincere. I can see why people wouldn't like it, but I can't see myself not enjoying it.

Sleepytime Gorilla Museam rulez


----------



## robotsatemygma (Jan 1, 2010)

Ahem... 

Psyopus
The Number Twelve Looks Like You (any, but "Worse than Alone" is a masterpiece and more comprehensible and less annoying then the others)
Norma Jean (Bless the Martyr Kiss the Child)
Every Time I Die (Last Night in Town)
Botch
Converge


Mathcore staples... oh and my band is pretty mathcore (wink wink)

With mathcore I have only been really excited by three things... Dillinger Escape Plan's "Calculating Infinity", Into the Moat's "the Design", and Psyopus' "Our Puzzling Encounters Considered". These in my definition are and were what mathcore/whatever is about. 

Dillinger, IMO, introduced the concept and will always be amazing. Into the Moat is so jazzy it's amazing and brought in the hardcore breakdowns while Psyopus really unlocked the whole guitar/bass dynamics possible with competent educated musicians. The Number Twelve Looks Like You is pretty screamo with fantastic musicianship. 

Check out some of Coltrane's later work and the whole modal jazz movement. That's some whacky shit going on there.

Oh and just do riffs with root/flatted 5th/octave chords. Mathcore staple.


----------



## Meh (Jan 2, 2010)

exotic animal petting zoo, that band is amazing


----------



## hypermagic (Jan 2, 2010)

God Dammit. Why do I always discover all these fuckawesome bands only to find out that they broke up?

COLLAPSAR (R.I.P. 2002 - 2009) on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

Sick instrumental mathcore


----------



## Magero (Jan 3, 2010)

Really been enjoying Ion Dissonance's Minus The Herd again lately. I know it's not as spastic as their other stuff, but there's something about those riffs that just makes me want to punch a child haha.


----------



## hypermagic (Jan 3, 2010)

Magero said:


> Really been enjoying Ion Dissonance's Minus The Herd again lately. I know it's not as spastic as their other stuff, but there's something about those riffs that just makes me want to punch a child haha.



To me Minus the Herd is like vanilla Ice cream. Sure I'll eat it and like it. I mean I discovered ID by watching the Video to "kneel" and I was like "I've never seen a band this raw and heavy before." Then I got BiR and Solace and nearly went trough my the ceiling of my office on first listen. BiR and Solace are like Tubs of Ben & Jerey's. HOLY SHIT YOU ARE THE BEST ICE CREAM EVER. 

I'm hoping their new stuff is as good as Danza's new stuff.


----------



## Magero (Jan 3, 2010)

I was a bit the same, but I have a bad habit of stopping with a band's latest release haha. I still listen to Solace (listening to it atm), but MtH just sticks with me as this assault of crushing riffs. Plus, new album will have 8-strings. Can't go wrong haha.


----------



## allstar990 (Jan 3, 2010)

Hmm i checked out most of the bands mentioned...can anyone tell me similiar artists to keith merrow?


----------



## omgmjgg (Jan 3, 2010)

ya i want to hear the new ID with 8's it's going to be sick, and hopefully the quality of the recording is as good as minus the heard.

I'd like to know what they're going to tune the 8's to. I'd say it would be something in E, but who knows with those guys.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 3, 2010)

I just hope the next ID album isn't as 'trendy' as Minus The Herd, I felt like on that album they were cashing in on the groove trend. Still a sick album though.


----------



## anne (Jan 3, 2010)

Minus the Herd is the only ID album I can stand, and I freakin love it. More of that and I will be so happy!


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 3, 2010)

I much prefer Solace.


----------



## hypermagic (Jan 3, 2010)

allstar990 said:


> Hmm i checked out most of the bands mentioned...can anyone tell me similiar artists to keith merrow?



If you mean that low Bb sound:

Fell silent
Tesseract
Bulb/Periphery

If you ask me too many new bands are trying to cash in on that honky low Bb sound


----------



## OwlsHaveEyes (Jan 3, 2010)

Psyopus "Ideas of Reference"
Psyopus "Our Puzzling Encounters Considered"
Into The Moat "The Design"
Ion Dissonance "Breathing It Irrelevant"
Ion Dissonance "Solace"
Ion Dissonance "Minus The Herd"

Essential Mathcore albums


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 3, 2010)

anne said:


> Says anyone who wants to dance? That said, I write unmetered because I'm wont to change time signatures without even thinking. But that clearly doesn't work for the vast majority of music-listening humanity.



I've just seen this. Metal = not for dancing to 



anne said:


> not to sound like a prick when i say this, but dancing obv isn't the crux of the argument. to say that 4/4 is less true to "human emotion" is a put-down to a lot of excellent music that has been around for a very long time and that sounds very 'natural'. strictly metered and unmetered music can both sound natural or contrived -- it depends on a lot of things happening between performer, composer, and listener. trying to fit a pattern is just as bad as trying to fit an 'unpattern'. the pattern/unpattern should fit you, not vice versa.



Not to sound like a prick when I say this () but most of the best composers (subjective, I know) have branched out into odd time signatures and metres. I can only assume it comes from frustration with 4/4.


----------



## omgmjgg (Jan 3, 2010)

if i remember correctly, I watched an interview with kevin from ID and he said the new album will be the best of solace/bir and minus the heard. SOOO i guess we shall wait and see.


----------



## anne (Jan 3, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I've just seen this. Metal = not for dancing to



Never said it was. You've been speaking in a general context, so I replied in a general context.



> Not to sound like a prick when I say this () but most of the best composers (subjective, I know) have branched out into odd time signatures and metres. I can only assume it comes from frustration with 4/4.



Rating composers is already dumb and useless, but centuries of musical tradition would like to have a word with you. Innovations in rhythm with respect to time signatures and meter (or innovations in anything, as the trajectory of twelve-tone systems has proven) are inherently different, not inherently better. And moreover, metal doesn't own those rhythmic innovations (see Mikrokosmos VI, Scriabin's Piano Sonata No. 5, Nancarrow piano rolls.) They've come and gone and they'll probably continue to come and go, because it is just not as simple as "this is better" or "this is more true to whatever". I've given a casual counter opinion and presented it as an opinion, but then you've countered back with another opinion presented as reason. You just don't have anything to gain by not celebrating the wisdom in both the old and the new. But then again, if you really want to be right,  your little head off. I am just trying to help you gain something from the conversation.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 3, 2010)

Hey lady, how about a little less of the attitude? 

Your holier-than-thou approach to this discussion has already left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Acting like you should be listened to won't make you listened to


----------



## Cheesebuiscut (Jan 3, 2010)

Gotta agree with anne the most "natural" time signature is easily 4/4. When you see the random majority that is completely ignorant to all things music listening to a song and spontaneously start tapping a beat that beats always 4/4. When you see a random person starting to write a song its usually in? you guessed it 4/4.

Why do you think back in the day when jazz first became popularized all the people trying to dance to it were tripping over themselves? Because the 5/4 groove didn't come naturally.

All that said I still hate 4/4 and try to stay away from it like the plague. The time signatures that come naturally to me are usually a structural mess but I believe thats more because of the music I listen to having influenced what comes naturally more than anything. I doubt I'd be playing in odd meters unknowingly if I had never listened to anything out of 4/4.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 3, 2010)

omgmjgg said:


> if i remember correctly, I watched an interview with kevin from ID and he said the new album will be the best of solace/bir and minus the heard. SOOO i guess we shall wait and see.



Sweet.

I just hope it's more chaotic like Solace was. The lack of chaos on MTH had me bored in places.


----------



## anne (Jan 3, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Hey lady, how about a little less of the attitude?
> 
> Your holier-than-thou approach to this discussion has already left a bitter taste in my mouth.
> 
> Acting like you should be listened to won't make you listened to



I'm just trying to promote open-mindedness. You can go too far toward both conservatism and progressivism. You can read it as "attitude" if you want but your posts come off the same way to me.


----------



## Cheesebuiscut (Jan 3, 2010)

anne said:


> I'm just trying to promote open-mindedness. You can go too far toward both conservatism and progressivism. You can read it as "attitude" if you want but your posts come off the same way to me.



(happens with dave a lot.)


----------



## omgmjgg (Jan 3, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Sweet.
> 
> I just hope it's more chaotic like Solace was. The lack of chaos on MTH had me bored in places.



yea me too man, solace was the best


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jan 3, 2010)

anne said:


> I'm just trying to promote open-mindedness. You can go too far toward both conservatism and progressivism. You can read it as "attitude" if you want but your posts come off the same way to me.



Good for you. I am a very open-minded person, but I don't appreciate arrogance, which is what I've seen from your posts thus far.

Let us put this behind us and move on with the discussion, the topic is neither you or I!


----------



## Magero (Jan 3, 2010)

O.A.S.D ftw.
I just love the vocal delivery for the first line haha.
onequicksnapandthatwas AAHHHHHHHT


----------



## FacelessUnknown (Jan 4, 2010)

Im not sure if Harlots counts, but their album betrayer is fucking awesome.

HARLOTS (RIP 2002 - 09) on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

the weight unweighable or full body contortion are good songs to check out.


----------



## omgmjgg (Jan 4, 2010)

you guys should check out the band

I speak in calculus, they are pretty crazy and very talented.


----------



## Dystopia (Feb 27, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> My favourite Mathcore bands:
> 
> Ion Dissonance (Solace)
> The Dillinger Escape Plan
> ...



whoah, dont tell me you actually forgot about Psyopus!!!


----------



## 13point9 (Feb 27, 2010)

Dystopia said:


> whoah, dont tell me you actually forgot about Psyopus!!!



No way I was just thinking that hahaha


----------



## Dystopia (Feb 27, 2010)

13point9 said:


> No way I was just thinking that hahaha



well shit, i mean, they pretty much are the biggest band in matchcore. didnt they even start it?


----------



## hypermagic (Feb 27, 2010)

Eh they are ok. Arp is beast, to be sure, but there's not enough substance holding up the shred, IMO.


----------



## mellis (Feb 27, 2010)

See You Next Tuesday anyone? Some people might get really into the whole genre deal and say they are grind or whatever but I think it's close enough to chaotic for them to at least cross over into the mathcore realm.

YouTube - See You Next Tuesday - 09. 8 Dead, 9 If You Count The Fetus


----------



## Dystopia (Feb 27, 2010)

hypermagic said:


> Eh they are ok. Arp is beast, to be sure, but there's not enough substance holding up the shred, IMO.


 
no definately, arpmandude IS the band im pretty sure hes the only original memeber. that band has gone through so many fuckin line up changes...


----------



## PeteyG (Feb 27, 2010)

Just to add a little bit of thought on the whole time-signatures to creativity thing, and also about what time signatures are more natural, etc, etc, blah, blah.

While I think that the more creative music is that which is thought about in the most depth in the creative process, where the composer thinks very in depth about how they want the time signature to help convey the music better, I am not about to say that writing music in just 4/4 isn't creative at all. Hell I'd be willing to say that the ability to write something that stays within 4/4 all of the way through, but remains interesting throughout and shows much more thought with regard to instrumentation, layering, structure and interesting rhythm within the bar, shows a lot more creativity than changing time signature all of the time.

In my personal opinion, one of the greatest songs I have ever heard in terms of creativity is Frozen as performed by Madonna, which is in 4/4. However that isn't what it's all about, the layering in that song is amazing, as well as some of the rhythms used being just phenomenal in relation to the song.

As for the naturality of time signatures, the important thing to remember is that it's the public that makes the success of a band, and people who listen to music also like to move to music. Thinking of the movement to a time signature can very much help the understanding of how they seem to the non-musical listener.

4/4 is by far the most popular for a reason, in that it is easy to dance to/nod your head to, it can be split down to half time easily and still be easily moved to, sped up and the same applies.

3/4 & 6/8 have a very bouncy feeling about them, simply because you're cutting the bar short by a beat, there's no easy way to cut the bar in half. The other thing to think about is when nodding your head to it, it's a swift downward nod followed by an elongated movement back up with the head (similar kinetic properties of bouncing a ball), in contrast with 4/4 where it's very even timing of down - up - down - up.

5/4 is a funny one, as it has a similar bounce as 3/4 & 6/8, and also cannot be split in half easily, however the lull between the downbeats is accentuated in 5/8. If used right this can be incredibly groovy and just absolutely force a crowd to head bang (the quintuplet breakdown section at 3:58 in Bland Street Bloom by SikTh is a perfect example of this).

7/8 is a more awkward sounding time signature, simply because you are cutting an 8th note beat out of a bar of 4/4, because of this it inherently sounds kind of rushed and a bit unnatural, but again can be used incredibly well. Chimp Spanner is a perfect example, as well as quite a few tracks by Cinematic Orchestra (the latter of which isn't metal, but just awesome music).

Like I said, taking these things into account when writing something is something I think greatly adds to creativity of a band, however I think far too many bands just write randomly in time signatures a lot of the time, and this ends up sounding forced or just weird and random. Of course a lot of people like that, otherwise bands like that wouldn't be as popular as they are.

Just to end my massive post (apologies for that), I'd like to point out that I personally have a much easier time writing "techy" music with time signatures and the like, for one simple reason. It's much easier to sound original in odd time signatures due to a lack of understanding about them, it's easy to take perfectly normal musical devices and make them sound new in odd time signatures. When I try to write normal music I become frustrated that it just sounds like bad rip offs of everything else, perhaps this means I'm less creative than successful artists who write stuff purely in 4/4?


----------



## skeeballcore (Feb 28, 2010)

Dystopia said:


> well shit, i mean, they pretty much are the biggest band in matchcore. didnt they even start it?



Absolutely not...there were many math bands before Psyopus...


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Feb 28, 2010)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Gotta agree with anne the most "natural" time signature is easily 4/4. When you see the random majority that is completely ignorant to all things music listening to a song and spontaneously start tapping a beat that beats always 4/4. When you see a random person starting to write a song its usually in? you guessed it 4/4.
> 
> Why do you think back in the day when jazz first became popularized all the people trying to dance to it were tripping over themselves? Because the 5/4 groove didn't come naturally.
> 
> All that said I still hate 4/4 and try to stay away from it like the plague. The time signatures that come naturally to me are usually a structural mess but I believe thats more because of the music I listen to having influenced what comes naturally more than anything. I doubt I'd be playing in odd meters unknowingly if I had never listened to anything out of 4/4.



Going back to this, 4/4 is only the natural time signature in Western cultures. If you listen to World Music from Africa, India, China places like that they don't have the compound formula that us Western idiots seem stuck in.

African music especially incorporates a lot of interesting time signatures that the majority of the Western world ignores.



PeteyG said:


> Just to add a little bit of thought on the whole time-signatures to creativity thing, and also about what time signatures are more natural, etc, etc, blah, blah.
> 
> While I think that the more creative music is that which is thought about in the most depth in the creative process, where the composer thinks very in depth about how they want the time signature to help convey the music better, I am not about to say that writing music in just 4/4 isn't creative at all. Hell I'd be willing to say that the ability to write something that stays within 4/4 all of the way through, but remains interesting throughout and shows much more thought with regard to instrumentation, layering, structure and interesting rhythm within the bar, shows a lot more creativity than changing time signature all of the time.
> 
> ...



I agree that proggressive elements in your music shouldn't be contrived as it can take away from the creativity, but if you get it right it can make a good idea great. 

My favourite time signatures are 11/8, 5/8 and 3/8 (PeepShow anyone?) The feel is just so interesting! I also love using triplets in 4/4 with the cymbals in 6/8 and the snare every 3rd hit. Really groovy feature.


----------



## Gitte (Feb 28, 2010)

Check out "war from a harlots mouth" from Berlin/Germany. They are on tour at the moment wit a plea for purging.


----------



## hypermagic (Feb 28, 2010)

Gitte said:


> Check out "war from a harlots mouth" from Berlin/Germany. They are on tour at the moment wit a plea for purging.




Sick band. Those vocals are raw!


----------



## omgmjgg (Feb 28, 2010)

you guys would prob like I speak in calculus, possibly even check out isyou, into the moat (if you want to throw them in here)


----------



## Gitte (Feb 28, 2010)

hypermagic said:


> Sick band. Those vocals are raw!



...and great guys hang out with


----------

