# New Strandberg 8 string info - What the * is that ?! Multiscale and True Temperament



## Valnob (Apr 6, 2013)

Ola just put this pic on his facebook with this msg: 
<<The future of 8-string guitar! Try it at MusikMesse Frankfurt booth 4.0 K53 next week, across from True Temperament>>


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 6, 2013)

Yeah, that thing blows my mind. Blending all the technologies!


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## Wings of Obsidian (Apr 6, 2013)

My questions:

1.) why doesn't Ola slant the pickups to align the poles pieces with the slanted frets?

2.) does the True Temperament system affect bending and slides in any way?


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## RevelGTR (Apr 6, 2013)

Those upper frets dont look like they would be very comfortable.


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## mwcarl (Apr 6, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> My questions:
> 
> 1.) why doesn't Ola slant the pickups to align the poles pieces with the slanted frets?
> 
> 2.) does the True Temperament system affect bending and slides in any way?



1) Those Blackouts don't have pole pieces as far as I know. Don't know why they weren't slanted even a bit though.

2) I'm still skeptical, but I think True Temperament says that bending isn't affected. I don't see why slides would be a problem.

I think this guitar is interesting, in that it blends a lot of 'new'-er technologies into one guitar: multiscale, headless, greatly improved intonation, active pickups and probably a supposedly more ergonomic neck profile.


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## leonardo7 (Apr 6, 2013)

Looks amazing!

The problem some people could face with True Temperament frets is that they are made for a specific tuning. You cant change the tuning and remain perfectly intonated. Ola had to check if they even had a system for drop A. I wouldn't care cause one tuning would be fine with me.


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## BlackStar7 (Apr 6, 2013)

Dear Ola, 
Please stop coming up with awesome, amazing innovations and instead build the next 100 or so customs on the waitlist so you can get to mine

sincerely, 
me


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## sibanez29 (Apr 6, 2013)

Ramen noodles for frets ---->> pure GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!


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## skeels (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh I'm having a flashback!


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## StevenC (Apr 6, 2013)

The pickups in this guitar aren't slanted because it was made by S7G and their Boden 8s have straight pickups. This was one of the prototypes, I believe.

I'm sure Ola would be happy to slant pickups if the guitar is ordered with slanted pickups, but that of course means custom pickups/routes. Since the pickups for #8 were only big enough for straight pickups, maybe everything else has followed from that.


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## Rook (Apr 6, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Looks amazing!
> 
> The problem some people could face with True Temperament frets is that they are made for a specific tuning. You cant change the tuning and remain perfectly intonated. Ola had to check if they even had a system for drop A. I wouldn't care cause one tuning would be fine with me.



This, a TT system is set for a given tuning, action and string gauge, to keep it spot on you have to keep basically everything the same and it goes back to being a compromise. I don't know how much better than just temperament it is should you change something but tbh I don't play my just temperament guitars thinking 'hmm if only this were slightly more in tune', simply squeezing a little too hard picking too hard etc etc has the same variance in tuning...

Call me skeptical.

Amazing that this thing exists though, engineering and art combined at its finest.

And whoever said Blackouts don't have pole pieces, they do they're just two blades rather than 16 slugs/screws.


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## narad (Apr 6, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> The problem some people could face with True Temperament frets is that they are made for a specific tuning. You cant change the tuning and remain perfectly intonated. Ola had to check if they even had a system for drop A. I wouldn't care cause one tuning would be fine with me.



This is my current holdup with true temperament, but does anyone know - if you change tunings are you still intonated better than standard tuning on standard frets? Or is it just a complete mess when you take it 2 or 3 half steps down?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Apr 6, 2013)

So you have to stick to one tuning? And in exchange you get that one tuning to sound "perfect"?... Man...people are just trying too hard to squeeze out a good sound. I change up my tuning alot in order to experiment and get new song ideas. So I guess true temperament isn't for me (unless I have like ten guitars, one for each specific tuning).


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## Andromalia (Apr 6, 2013)

As much as I'd like to try a TT neck, the cost doesn't make it interesting for me. At that point it would be throwing a lot of money for a very marginal gain.


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## JEngelking (Apr 6, 2013)

Agreed with Andromalia, I switch tunings a bit too much. I think the farthest I'd go as far as getting very good intonation for all strings/notes would be fanned frets, as that seems a bit more practical for me, single fan probably but a double fan would be cool too. 

That said, I do think the instrument in the picture looks great.  I really like the color of the finish.


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 6, 2013)

Drop tuning might actually be okay going by the TT website FAQ, though you wouldn't be able to tune the entire guitar down too far. Switching from plain to wound third isn't feasible, but evidently TT otherwise has a degree of freedom regarding gauges and tuning.

Wonder what the scale lengths are and if this'll see production via S7.

EDIT: Potentially worth noting that TT doesn't offer stainless frets, but it's not your usual nickel silver either so I'm not sure how they wear over time.


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## StevenC (Apr 6, 2013)

InfinityCollision said:


> Wonder what the scale lengths are and if this'll see production via S7.



The scale lengths are 28"-26.5".


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## DrJazz (Apr 6, 2013)

Awwww yeah. I was eagerly waiting for someone to blend TT and multiscale, I'm not surprised that it finally came from Ola.

On the issue of tunings :
Yes, the fact that you cannot switch from one tuning to another with TT is a drawback. However, I tend to have guitars where I stick to one tuning, and use other guitars to experiment more. I think every guitar player needs a guitar in "standard" tuning somewhere in his arsenal. Either E standard in 6-strings or B standard in 7-string, for instance. In this case, since you're stuck with a guitar with a static tuning, why not have it with TT?
That's my reasoning around it anyway.

I always thought the fan on Ola's designs was a bit too small for my tastes for 8-stringers. However, I'd love to buy the 7-string variant of this axe and tune it in B standard. I would then use my other 7-string to experiment with other tunings. Beforehand, however, the pickups would need to be slanted.

Overall, a pretty exciting release I'd say!


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 6, 2013)

StevenC said:


> The scale lengths are 28"-26.5".



Meh. Oh well, there's always the fretless route.


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## JoeyBTL (Apr 6, 2013)

That's how my fret board looks when I try to play while drinking.


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## Splinterhead (Apr 6, 2013)

Ola is a true innovator. I'm psyched to see this thing in action!


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## Valnob (Apr 6, 2013)

Andromalia said:


> As much as I'd like to try a TT neck, the cost doesn't make it interesting for me. At that point it would be throwing a lot of money for a very marginal gain.



How much does it cost ?


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## Valnob (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh, yeah I forgot, the finish looks really awesome btw ! Maybe with a ebony fretboard, it would look more killer !


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## Philligan (Apr 6, 2013)

Those are the squiggliest frets I've ever seen


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## vansinn (Apr 7, 2013)

Very nice, I dig this; lovely works Ola 

I understand the theory behind True Temperament fretting, but fail to understand why the 2nd, 4th and 7th frets are somewhat less TT aligned (i.e. more straight) than the others.

It's quite clear to me why the first fret is more radically shaped around the rd string, as this one, due to the higher downwards angle during fretting - depending on nut height and chosen string gauge and as such 'stiffness', tends to go more sharp off-pitch at this position than most other strings.

I just don't understand the mentioned other three frets..
Would be interesting with some comments from Ola himself - and no, I haven't yet read all comments on here, so spank me if this has already been commented..


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## Deadnightshade (Apr 7, 2013)

Oni has some catching up to do and raise it to e-scale true temperament 


Seriously now,all these innovations look so cool...But my pocket hurts just by looking at them..True temperament is already kind of a niche (despite being somewhat backed by some big artists) , let alone a fanned fret one...I doubt we'll see anything like that in the "affordable" 1.5-2.5k region soon...


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## WiseSplinter (Apr 7, 2013)

Looks great!

Now, can someone spot the 'perpendicular' fret? My money's on 5


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## 77zark77 (Apr 7, 2013)

no bend allowed !


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## Yo_Wattup (Apr 7, 2013)

JoeyBTL said:


> That's how my fret board looks when I try to play while *on acid*.



Me too! 




















Seriously.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Apr 7, 2013)

Really excited to test it at Messe, will give my thoughts as soon as I have my hands on it  never seen fan + TT, only missing a fanned evertune now haha!


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 7, 2013)

I'd say it's still missing an intonating nut with individual saddles as well as that evertune to be the most technologically advanced instrument ever 

I'd still want the pickups slanted though.


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## DrJazz (Apr 7, 2013)

WiseSplinter said:


> Now, can someone spot the 'perpendicular' fret? My money's on 5



Hah, now that's a challenge!

I think the perpendicular fret is closer to 7, though.


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## vansinn (Apr 7, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> I'd say it's still missing an intonating nut with individual saddles as well as that evertune to be the most technologically advanced instrument ever



Well, it would need to contain a lot of titanium and carbon to qualify as such - too much old fashioned wood 
Not sure about the Evertune bridge, but pickups would need to be replaced by maybe laser tech for reading string vibrations 

Getting real again.. I'm not sure an adjustable intonation nut is needed with this type of fretting.
And I feel it's nice seeing the basic build is basically good 'ol traditions anyways.



> I'd still want the pickups slanted though.



Me to


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## trickae (Apr 7, 2013)

ola turn Strictly7 into a semi custom, for the love of God, for those of us who can't wait 2 years for a guitar, 

same specs but with slight mods like, different pups, floating trem and different top woods.


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## StevenC (Apr 7, 2013)

trickae said:


> ola turn Strictly7 into a semi custom, for the love of God, for those of us who can't wait 2 years for a guitar,
> 
> same specs but with slight mods like, different pups, floating trem and different top woods.



Floating trems would require an entirely different CNC program, but I think Ola said there will eventually be a production with a term. The new signature 6 string will almost definitely have it, if it is in fact a Paul Masvidal sig.


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## meambobbo (Apr 7, 2013)

true temperament seems like a horrible idea in my mind. The whole point of equal temperament isn't just for many TUNING, but many KEYS. For true temperament, I think you could down-tune all the strings equally which would change the perfectly intonated key, but you'd only have one key that you'd be perfectly in tune in.

For the keys outside of that one key, they will sound off and dissonant. For equal temperament, EVERY key is a bit off and dissonant, but because every key is off of perfect by the same amount, they are all relatively close enough for it to be difficult to hear the dissonance, and there is no obvious out-of-tune sound when switching from one key to another. For a true temperament instrument all those other keys are going to sound worse than equal temperament.


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## luca9583 (Apr 7, 2013)

Looks incredible..

Have any of you guys played a TT instrument before and if so does it affect how other guitar sound when playing in unison?

I'm especially curious about how a TT and a non TT guitar would sound as a double tracked stereo pair in a mix.


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## Señor Voorhees (Apr 7, 2013)

Seems like a neat idea, but ultimately very pointless, imo. A well set up guitar intonates well enough in whatever tuning you feel like. Something like this is a one trick pony of sorts. For the price difference, I really don't think the smallest of microtones in change is anywhere near worth it. I like new ideas, and it's cool for sure, but it's a bit gimmicky, and not cheap gimmicky. I like the guitar, but I can't picture myself gassing for one of them. TT is a feature I'll gladly never touch.


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 7, 2013)

meambobbo said:


> true temperament seems like a horrible idea in my mind. The whole point of equal temperament isn't just for many TUNING, but many KEYS. For true temperament, I think you could down-tune all the strings equally which would change the perfectly intonated key, but you'd only have one key that you'd be perfectly in tune in.
> 
> For the keys outside of that one key, they will sound off and dissonant. For equal temperament, EVERY key is a bit off and dissonant, but because every key is off of perfect by the same amount, they are all relatively close enough for it to be difficult to hear the dissonance, and there is no obvious out-of-tune sound when switching from one key to another. For a true temperament instrument all those other keys are going to sound worse than equal temperament.



TT =/= just intonation, read their FAQ.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 8, 2013)

StevenC said:


> The pickups in this guitar aren't slanted because it was made by S7G and their Boden 8s have straight pickups. This was one of the prototypes, I believe.
> 
> I'm sure Ola would be happy to slant pickups if the guitar is ordered with slanted pickups, but that of course means custom pickups/routes. Since the pickups for #8 were only big enough for straight pickups, maybe everything else has followed from that.



The Bodens are modelled off actual Ola-made .strandberg* guitars. Their 8 is taken from one of Tosin's, for example.

Also, this guitar is most certainly NOT a Boden and will be delivered to me in a couple days:






The reasoning behind this stuff is that one normally has more distance between pickup and saddle on a longer scale, and if the fan is subtle enough, its workings are a bit like having your normal 7-string axe on the top strings and an 8 on the bottom ones. Needless to say, this would be a far more problematic implementation if you had a more noticeable fan or the perpendicular fret on the 5th or something along those lines (I doubt it would work too well tonally in such cases, to be honest).


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## redstone (Apr 8, 2013)

Valnob said:


> How much does it cost ?



Maintenance costs are high (non stainless) and pretty much only TT could refret it I guess. Add a compound radius and prepare yourself to send your guitar to them every time you need some fretwork.


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## vent187 (Apr 8, 2013)

Go home frets, you're drunk!


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 8, 2013)

Yeah, it should be said that having the pickups being straight kinda makes sense. Remember that you place the pickup at a certain point relative to the length of the string. It's not "such-and-such far away from the bridge". If you slant the pickups, then a larger portion of the string is after the pickup, and the pickup is proportionally closer to the string's point of origin at the bridge saddle on the long side. Leaving them straight means it sorta adjusts itself, really.

It is a matter of taste though. I like the sound of the long scale length itself, and so i would want them slanted.


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 8, 2013)

Slanting in line with the fan would be most comparable to the traditional straight-fret configuration. There's a few builders that do this as opposed to arbitrarily angled pickups. Granted you don't have a lot of choice in the matter unless you're using the luthier's own custom pups or Laces.


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## Yo_Wattup (Apr 8, 2013)

meambobbo said:


> true temperament seems like a horrible idea in my mind.  The whole point of equal temperament isn't just for many TUNING, but many KEYS. For true temperament, I think you could down-tune all the strings equally which would change the perfectly intonated key, but you'd only have one key that you'd be perfectly in tune in.
> 
> For the keys outside of that one key, they will sound off and dissonant. For equal temperament, EVERY key is a bit off and dissonant, but because every key is off of perfect by the same amount, they are all relatively close enough for it to be difficult to hear the dissonance, and there is no obvious out-of-tune sound when switching from one key to another. For a true temperament instrument all those other keys are going to sound worse than equal temperament.



Yeah but Ola only plays In one key


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## meambobbo (Apr 8, 2013)

meambobbo said:


> true temperament seems like a horrible idea in my mind. The whole point of equal temperament isn't just for many TUNING, but many KEYS. For true temperament, I think you could down-tune all the strings equally which would change the perfectly intonated key, but you'd only have one key that you'd be perfectly in tune in.
> 
> For the keys outside of that one key, they will sound off and dissonant. For equal temperament, EVERY key is a bit off and dissonant, but because every key is off of perfect by the same amount, they are all relatively close enough for it to be difficult to hear the dissonance, and there is no obvious out-of-tune sound when switching from one key to another. For a true temperament instrument all those other keys are going to sound worse than equal temperament.


 
True Temperament - Fretting systems

I checked the FAQ. Yeah, I was mixing up terminology. I was thinking just intonation. True temperament seems to be similar to making each fret like a compensated nut. Yes, this makes much more sense...


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## ExtendedRange (Apr 8, 2013)

"I've never played a True Temperament guitar. But allows me to give my expert opinion on it's worth anyway."


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## Tom Drinkwater (Apr 8, 2013)

that is just awesome but I'd be the kind of jerk that would have a guitar like that and play it through a crappy amp.


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## Defrost (Apr 8, 2013)

BlackStar7 said:


> Dear Ola,
> Please stop coming up with awesome, amazing innovations and instead build the next 100 or so customs on the waitlist so you can get to mine
> 
> sincerely,
> me



This. With a waiting list a mile long I feel Ola should spend less time behind the drawing board and start focusing on building customs so we all get our axes sooner. 

Edit: damn smartphone typo's.


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## BlackStar7 (Apr 8, 2013)

Defrost said:


> This. With a waiting list a mile long I feel Ola should spend less time behind the drawing board and start focusing on building customs so we all get our axes sooner.



I feel your pain. I believe I joined the waitlist in May of 2012, and if I'm remembering my initial spot correctly I've moved up 10 spots since then. The guy is clearly a brilliant innovator, but ouch. I may be off though - I'd be curious if anyone else has any sense of how fast the list is progressing.


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## Rook (Apr 9, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> Yeah, it should be said that having the pickups being straight kinda makes sense. Remember that you place the pickup at a certain point relative to the length of the string. It's not "such-and-such far away from the bridge". If you slant the pickups, then a larger portion of the string is after the pickup, and the pickup is proportionally closer to the string's point of origin at the bridge saddle on the long side. Leaving them straight means it sorta adjusts itself, really.
> 
> It is a matter of taste though. I like the sound of the long scale length itself, and so i would want them slanted.



This would make sense if the 'perpendicular fret' were where the pickup was, in actual fact for the pickup to be in the same position relative to the strings as a parallel fret guitar they'd have to be slanted and follow the fan of the frets, not be straight. The difference in sound is pretty glaring and my fan isn't even that big.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 9, 2013)

It's never really bothered me that the bridge pups on my tele and strat are slanted, and I figure slanted pups on a single-scale guitar would have a similar effect as straight pups on a multiscale guitar. Am I wrong about that? I've never played a multiscale guitar, regardless of the orientation of the pups, so it'd be interesting to hear if the same people who think straight pups on a multiscale sound off have the same issues with the bridge pups on strats and teles.

Input, anyone?


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## Winspear (Apr 9, 2013)

Precisely the same effect as the Tele bridge, Tim. 
I've never played a straight pup multiscale, but I've never had a problem with the bridge on Fenders, no. Then again, they are usually incredibly bright guitars and I've never tried to use them for downtuned tight sounds.


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## Rook (Apr 9, 2013)

It is a very similar effect to a tele yeah, a lot of my .s* clips have a definite tele-ness to them despite be a 7 string with D Activators


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## Valnob (Apr 9, 2013)

.....


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2013)

Rook said:


> This would make sense if the 'perpendicular fret' were where the pickup was, in actual fact for the pickup to be in the same position relative to the strings as a parallel fret guitar they'd have to be slanted and follow the fan of the frets, not be straight. The difference in sound is pretty glaring and my fan isn't even that big.



Think about it though: If the pickup is placed, 10% into the string's length, then that should remain constant as the scale gets longer. When the scale gets longer, that 10% distance gets longer too, because it's 10% of 28" and not 10% of 25.5".

If the perpendicular fret is at the bridge, then the pickup has to be angled in the opposite direction, like on a strat or tele.

If the distance between bridge and pickup stays the same, then that distance represents a smaller % of the total string length on the longer scale than on the shorter scale.

so let's say the pickup is 1" away from the bridge. On the 25.5" scale, that's 1/25.5. on the 28" scale it's 1/28. You see what i mean?


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 9, 2013)

Right, but straight pickups don't mimic the single-scale perpendicular setup either because the perpendicular point in the fan isn't where the pickup is, it's generally somewhere on the fretboard. A perpendicular pickup on a multiscale guitar is more akin to the bridge pickup on a strat or tele as mentioned above. Hence neither straight frets nor arbitrarily angled frets (Agile setup, arbitrarily chosen BKP angle, etc) are an accurate translation of perpendicular pickups on a single-scale guitar. The pickups would have to follow the fan, with each having a slightly different angle. Trying to find pics, I know I've seen at least a couple luthiers do this...

None of the above options are inherently wrong from a tonal standpoint obviously, just subtly different.

EDIT: Right under my nose... EE's Vik is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah, the most natural way to do it would be to angle the pickup according to the fan, so it's as angled as a fret at that position would have been. Slightly less angled than the bridge.

edit: i think.


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## Tasteh (Apr 9, 2013)

narad said:


> This is my current holdup with true temperament, but does anyone know - if you change tunings are you still intonated better than standard tuning on standard frets? Or is it just a complete mess when you take it 2 or 3 half steps down?



It should be fine around Eb or D standard I've heard.


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## Rook (Apr 9, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> Yeah, the most natural way to do it would be to angle the pickup according to the fan, so it's as angled as a fret at that position would have been. Slightly less angled than the bridge.
> 
> edit: i think.



You got it!


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## luca9583 (Apr 9, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> Yeah, the most natural way to do it would be to angle the pickup according to the fan, so it's as angled as a fret at that position would have been. Slightly less angled than the bridge.
> 
> edit: i think.



In order to really hear how the angling of pickups affects the sound, one would need to do an experiment of some kind with a "test" guitar body (multiscale instrument) that has a sliding pickup setup routed in it, similar to this:



..but that also allows you to rotate the pickups (which i guess would require a lot of slack in the wiring).

Or maybe just a heavily routed body with velcro so you could place the pickups literally any way you liked, at any angle


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 10, 2013)

Yeah, it's hard to find an effective way to demonstrate it. The point is, anyway, that the bridge pickup should be further away from the bridge at the long end than on the short end. Keeping it straight is an overly simple way of doing this, and the effect is one of softening the lower strings, kinda making up for the effect that the longer scale has on the sound of the string. It's a pronounced example of course. It shouldn't be that extreme in an ideal situation.

I would just have it angled identically to the bridge, and just have it a little further away so the low strings sound nice, and the high strings sound even warmer 

edit: And if anyone wants to see the OPPOSITE effect (how not to fucking do it), here's the second guitar that Roter made me 






re-edit: and yes, that is an actual fanned fret-designed angled pickup. Because they just re-used the one from the crappy fanned fret guitar they made me the first time. It actually had a nice effect on tone, with the highs being a little sweeter and throatier, so it's not a bad idea actually. Now, if only it wasn't the result of blinding laziness!


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## codycarter (Apr 10, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> My questions:
> 
> 1.) why doesn't Ola slant the pickups to align the poles pieces with the slanted frets?
> 
> 2.) does the True Temperament system affect bending and slides in any way?



I prefer it. With the fanned bridge my palm mutes get weird, so with a slanted pup I might actually mute too high on the stirng for the pup to even pick up.

That, and the concept behind strat/tele/twangbuckers


Oh and like previously stated, active pups don't have poles and if they did, slanting might actually throw the alignment off


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## Rook (Apr 10, 2013)

They do have poles, just two long ones instead of 12-16 small ones.


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## Ben.Last (Apr 12, 2013)

A lovely experiment; but, I'm sorry, there's no musical call for something with that much of a complication to perfect pitch ratio. Wankery.


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## drmosh (Apr 12, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> edit: And if anyone wants to see the OPPOSITE effect (how not to fucking do it), here's the second guitar that Roter made me
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear lord wtf. Why have I not seen that before...
My right hand still hurts when I see that bridge. My Roter FF7 is actually useable now I had a new nut made and replaced the saddles.


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## redstone (Apr 12, 2013)

Lern2swim said:


> A lovely experiment; but, I'm sorry, there's no musical call for something with that much of a complication to perfect pitch ratio. Wankery.



Especially as we can expect to get some integrated autotune softwares in the _near_ future.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 12, 2013)

Lern2swim said:


> A lovely experiment; but, I'm sorry, there's no musical call for something with that much of a complication to perfect pitch ratio. Wankery.



Idunno, it looks pretty perfect for me, but it's way above the point of diminishing returns. If you have the buck, why not? Strandbergs aren't for the everyman to begin with.


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## Ben.Last (Apr 12, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> Idunno, it looks pretty perfect for me, but it's way above the point of diminishing returns. If you have the buck, why not? Strandbergs aren't for the everyman to begin with.



Oh, I definitely agree. If someone wants it, by all means make it. I just think, after a certain point, it moves beyond the musical element with stuff like this.


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 12, 2013)

Lern2swim said:


> A lovely experiment; but, I'm sorry, there's no musical call for something with that much of a complication to perfect pitch ratio. Wankery.



There's no musical call for more than 6 strings.
There's no musical call for 24 frets.



Also, what do you mean by "complication to perfect pitch ratio"? Hell, what do you mean by perfect pitch ratio?


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## Rook (Apr 12, 2013)

^Thats not what he's saying, he's saying having TT frets won't benefit you musically, it's a tiny little difference only you are gunna (maybe) notice and nobody else. It's a shit load of work for something so subtle, not to mention expensive.

I assume the ratio he refers to is the intonation from one fret to the next.

If that is what he means then i sorta agree.


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## Ben.Last (Apr 12, 2013)

That's basically what I meant.

Ratio was in the context of "complication to perfect pitch" not just "perfect pitch." "Complication to perfect pitch ratio," in other words. The level of pain in the ass-ery of building and playing this thing compared to how much of a noticeable difference in sound there will be.



InfinityCollision said:


> There's no musical call for more than 6 strings.
> There's no musical call for 24 frets.



Yes, actually there is. Both of those things are going to be audibly different and change technique to a degree that I FEEL would be noticeable compared to the investment involved in the tech.


Also, note that I did also say "if someone wants it, by all means make it." I'm not saying people shouldn't go ahead and try this (or any new thing, for that matter)

Finally, keep in mind that this opinion is coming from someone that doesn't even feel that normal fanned frets are something that's really necessary 9 times out of 10.


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 12, 2013)

Lern2swim said:


> Ratio was in the context of "complication to perfect pitch" not just "perfect pitch." "Complication to perfect pitch ratio," in other words.


I got that, hence the placement of my quotation marks. You haven't actually answered my question though. Your use of the term "perfect pitch" in this context doesn't make any sense and I don't understand what's "complicating the ratio" here either, so I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that entire phrase.



> Yes, actually there is. Both of those things are going to be audibly different and change technique to a degree that I FEEL would be noticeable compared to the investment involved in the tech.


You've missed the point, but I was engaging in hyperbole here and it's not especially relevant to the main point so I'll leave it be.

For the record I will likely never play a guitar with TT frets as my interests lie in other options.


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## Ben.Last (Apr 12, 2013)

InfinityCollision said:


> I got that, hence the placement of my quotation marks. You haven't actually answered my question though. Your use of the term "perfect pitch" in this context doesn't make any sense and I don't understand what's "complicating the ratio" here either, so I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that entire phrase.



Not complicating the ratio, the ratio of complication (of the fretboard) to perfect pitch. 

Explanation:
Straight, "normal" frets are simple, from an engineering standpoint. They also don't provide perfect pitch across the fretboard. There are going to be slight inaccuracies because of various physical limitations. Separate intonation saddles gets things a bit more in line, but not quite.

Fanned frets combat this a bit, by changing the angle of the frets to put things a bit more in line with where each string/fret will be in perfect pitch relative to the rest of the strings/frets. It's not quite there 100% though.

True Temperament is an attempt to get even closer to the entire fretboard being in tune with itself. Frets are shifted in numerous places to get each string and fret to where it should be so that they're all in perfect pitch relative to the rest of the fretboard.

My point was simply that the ratio of the benefit of that to the engineering and technique changes required to get things there is just not worth it IN MY OPINION. I was not saying that the experiment is not worthwhile, however. Getting to the moon was wankery too, that doesn't mean it wasn't worthwhile.


As for your hyperbole, I understood what you were going for. I (and plenty of others here) play an 8 string, something that is by no means a necessity from a musical standpoint. Again, though, we're back to individual feelings as to how much an engineering change adds value. I, personally, feel that the 8 string adds enough noticeable value, whereas the TT system does not. 

The difference between what I'm saying vs. the idiots that spout crap like "Why for do u need 8 stringz? 6 strings is how geetarz is sposed 2 b." is that I have now, multiple times, stated that my opinion does not mean that I don't think people should go with a TT guitar if they want. I don't feel I'm out of line (especially to the extent that some... person felt the need to neg rep me and say my opinion is stupid)


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 12, 2013)

Lern2swim said:


> Explanation:



Ah, I get what you're saying now. Thanks for clarifying


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## Rook (Apr 13, 2013)

Just to add, fanned frets have nothing to do with intonation beyond the fact that it may be easier to intonate thicker lower strings on a longer scale than a shorter. It doesn't improve the accuracy of the intonation as you go up the board.


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## Valnob (Apr 13, 2013)

Now that Musikmesse has started, has anyone seen it ?


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## Explorer (Apr 14, 2013)

meambobbo said:


> true temperament seems like a horrible idea in my mind. The whole point of equal temperament isn't just for many TUNING, but many KEYS. For true temperament, I think you could down-tune all the strings equally which would change the perfectly intonated key, but you'd only have one key that you'd be perfectly in tune in.
> 
> For the keys outside of that one key, they will sound off and dissonant. For equal temperament, EVERY key is a bit off and dissonant, but because every key is off of perfect by the same amount, they are all relatively close enough for it to be difficult to hear the dissonance, and there is no obvious out-of-tune sound when switching from one key to another. For a true temperament instrument all those other keys are going to sound worse than equal temperament.





InfinityCollision said:


> TT =/= just intonation, read their FAQ.



However, TT can be used for just intonation, according to their FAQ, and that photo shows it being used for that purpose.

If you look at the frets, you'll see that each string's fret placements indicate a just intonation of some kind. If each string was equally tempered, then each fret would resemble the one before it, changing incrementally in the same direction.

Instead, you have fret placement wavering back and forth, closer to the nut or the bridge, in the same intermittent pattern as a scale. 

Their own website doesn't say that TT is always used for equal temperament. Here's the relevant text:



> What we mean by True Temperament is that our fretting system will give you super-accurate intonation over the whole fingerboard *in the particular temperament it is constructed for*, whether this be standard 12-tone Equal Temperament or *any of the other temperaments we offer.*



So yes, this Strandberg is perfectly intonated for one scale, with one locked-in tuning, and that's it. 

For what it's worth, I once played with a guy who had one of those guitars with interchangeable fretboards so he could be perfectly intonated in whatever one scale he deemed important at the time. He sounded awful when playing with the rest of us... but I'm sure, with as much as this Strandberg must cost, that it won't have that same problem playing with equally tempered instruments. *laugh*


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## narad (Apr 14, 2013)

Explorer said:


> He sounded awful when playing with the rest of us... but I'm sure, with as much as this Strandberg must cost, that it won't have that same problem playing with equally tempered instruments. *laugh*



I thought it went without saying that mixing instruments with different intonation schemes would be a bad idea. Maybe I'm reading your post as snootier than it is, but it's not the innovation that's to blame for your guitarist's lack of common sense in determining an appropriate scenario in which to use it.


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## Rook (Apr 14, 2013)

^This is explorer we're talking about, pretty sure you're reading too far into it 

In relation to the interchangeable boards, I saw a guitar with frets that can slide up and down individually not just for each fret but each string too, that was interesting.


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## Explorer (Apr 14, 2013)

narad said:


> I thought it went without saying that mixing instruments with different intonation schemes would be a bad idea. Maybe I'm reading your post as snootier than it is, but it's not the innovation that's to blame for your guitarist's lack of common sense in determining an appropriate scenario in which to use it.



Sorry if it came across as snooty, but I do agree with you. Here's my reasoning, using your (and my) starting point:

Mixing different intonation schemes is a bad idea.

Less than .001% of fretted electric guitar/bass/keyboard players in Europe and the Americas use anything other than equal temperament.

That .001% consists of people who are not all using the same temperament, thereby diluting the usefulness of any given non-equal temperament.

Therefore, it's a bad idea to use this guitar, with its particular temperament, with more than 99.999% of other guitar/bass/keyboard players across North and South America and Europe. 

That really doesn't say much for the viability of most collaborative projects. Wouldn't most agree?


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## narad (Apr 14, 2013)

Explorer said:


> Therefore, it's a bad idea to use this guitar, with its particular temperament, with more than 99.999% of other guitar/bass/keyboard players across North and South America and Europe.
> 
> That really doesn't say much for the viability of most collaborative projects. Wouldn't most agree?



Definitely. I just imagine that it'll be mostly a studio thing for quite a while, unless there are some committed bands (who are most likely on these boards) who want to fill out the whole roster with TT instruments. 

Of course, being perfectly intonated for one key and one tuning doesn't preclude that the instrument won't still be better intonated than an equal temperament instrument in whatever other key you're playing in. From what I understand of it, it guarantees that at least one key/tuning will be worse off, but exactly how many keys/tunings are worse off, and how far off they are -- say from standard tuning -- that's the information that's really lacking from this thread.

EDIT: Though to follow-up, it's never been much of a problem for Mattias Eklundh. I just imagine that it would be awful in a multi-guitar group with lots of interlocking and doubled lines. With Misha's new TT regius en route, I guess we shall see!


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## ola_strandberg (Apr 14, 2013)

Hey guys,
a lot of wisdom in this thread already, so I will not much beyond what the TT FAQ says. You _can_ alter tunings within reason and it sounds great. For an 8-string the TT system really does make a difference, especially on the lower strings which are sometimes tricky to intonate properly.

Allan Marcus (whose guitar this is) is beyond happy and says he plays even more relaxed now that he doesn't have to compensate by "micro bends" etc to play in tune. The guitar itself is indeed a prototype - it is the 2nd ever piece of wood that came off the CNC and was made from scrap materials, but turned into a great guitar. 

Spec sheets for 2013 models will be out soon! And TT will definitely be an option, but we are still hashing through the pricing. And I will also let you know that we are introducing choices of a few (slanted!) pickups. And on the made-to-measure (ie. full custom) front, things are starting to move a little faster finally.

I would be interested in hearing from those that played it at Messe.


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## ixlramp (Apr 14, 2013)

TT is not just intonation, they have 3 types of system, one has very subtle fret offsets and is to get you closer to 12 equal temperament. This 8 string appears to have (i could be wrong) a second system which has larger fret offsets to create something called 'well temperament' (as in Bach's 'Well tempered clavier').

WT was used hundreds of years ago as a compromise between 'just intonation' and 12ET, each tone is offset from 12ET by just a few cents (mostly less than 10 cents) sharp or flat, some keys become closer to JI and some keys become further from JI but all keys are playable. Each key gains a unique character (key colour) instead of 12ET where a scale sounds the same in every key. In TT Dminor really could be 'the saddest key of all'.

Because the offsets from 12ET are small a WT instrument can play with 12ET instruments without excessive or unpleasant beating.

From the FAQ ...

"Die Wohltemperirte Gitarre
If you play a lot of "jazz" chords, in key signatures which brass players tend to favour, Die Wohltemperirte Gitarre is an excellent choice. Major keys in "Wohl" which sound closer to the natural tone row are: F, G, Bb, C, D. Minor keys which sound closer to the natural tone row are: E, F#, Ab, A, B, D.

The remaining key signatures in both "Wohl" and Formula 1 all sound harmonically acceptable to the ear, with varying degrees of tonal colour. Nothing sounds dissonant, but interesting, subtle effects are created which add harmonic "spice" to the mix. This applies to all well-tempered keys to some extent, and is a valuable tool which can add to the emotional "feel" of the music.

Before equal temperament came along in the mid 19th century, "Key Colour" - also known as "Key Character", or, in German, "Affekt" - was a familiar and generally accepted form of musical expression. "Key colour" is absent in equal temperament . As all its intervals are equal, the blend of intervals is the same in every key, so all keys sound alike. Well Tempered intervals are unequal, which gives each key its own unique blend of intervals and thus its own personality. Some keys sound sad or gloomy, some sound happy, some sound majestic, yet others frivolous.

Our well-tempered variants blend in well with "ordinary" instruments, the offsets from equal temper are not so severe that they sound dissonant. They have their own unique characters that never sound "wrong", but rather enrich the musical palette - they could be described as different dialects for the different temperaments."

Here's the tunings of several WTs http://www.kirnberger.fsnet.co.uk/WelltempII.html

A just intonation 31 fret per octave version i found on the TT site ...


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## Scattered Messiah (Apr 14, 2013)

I played the guitar at Messe multiple times, twice through an amp.
at first I found the shape of the frets slightly irritating while playing (being accustomed to look at your fretboard and see straight frets - but now suddendly seeing them all squiggly is indeed interesting)
...
but only for the few first moments.

I noticed (in distorted mode even more than in clean settings) that really dense chords seem veryvery "clean"/defined, as there are other, IMO slightly less irritating overtones to a lot of the intervals.
makes playing a lot of complex chords and using those slight dissonances and their resolution a lot easier / different to hear! 

singlenote runs obviously are not as affected, but if you really listen carefully, you notice a slight difference (atm I am jamming a lot with a violinist, whos an intonation-freak, so I guess I got more sensitive to such things than I have been).

What has been an eye opener to me, however, was when at the 3rd day Allan was moaning the fact, that the guitar got passed around so much, that the strings started to wear out noticably - which also affected the intonation of the guitar ... maybe even more than on a "conventionally" fretted model [I was missing a comparison here]


but a veryvery cool instrument, nonetheless!


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## FAiRLiGHT (Apr 14, 2013)

It looks like my guitar when i'm drunk


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## tmfrank (Apr 15, 2013)

Not sure if True Temperament will help with playability, but the intonation it'll provide will be a welcome addition! I hope to see more production Strandbergs announced relatively soon!


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 16, 2013)

Scattered Messiah said:


> What has been an eye opener to me, however, was when at the 3rd day Allan was moaning the fact, that the guitar got passed around so much, that the strings started to wear out noticably - which also affected the intonation of the guitar ... maybe even more than on a "conventionally" fretted model [I was missing a comparison here]



I thought you said the FRETS wore out, which frightened me 

But yeah, strings wearing out makes a big difference for sure.


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## Scattered Messiah (Apr 16, 2013)

Nah, the frets were still perfectly squiggly 
but I felt the worn out strings made a bigger difference than on a normal guitar, which I kinda did not expect ...


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## meambobbo (Apr 16, 2013)

Did you you try to bend on the more extreme squiggles?

Equal temperament sounds like shit for major 3rds, I must say. Whenever I'm playing major/minor intervals on the B and G strings, I have to bend one of the strings slightly to keep me from getting depressed. Yes, I'm being serious. It frustrates me how awful they sound. For barre chords, it's less noticeable and I'm kind of powerless over it, so i ignore it.

As far as incorporating with other instruments, it really depends on the style of music, the registers of the other instruments, etc. For example, if you're playing with a keyboardist, he may have software that will automatically put him in the same intonation. Or maybe he's just playing in a different octave. For a bass player, he may be an octave lower, and using vibrato. Or he might be picking a rhythm with some aggressive picking rather than sustaining a single note. It's going to be difficult to hear the "conflict" between instruments in those cases. I find the out-of-tune effect is most noticeable for close intervals, such as the major 3rd mentioned above.

For 8 string metal, there may be an issue for certain notes if playing with an equal tempered bass playing in the same octave. But if talented enough, one player could simply bend up to the other's intonation as a compromise.


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## meambobbo (Apr 16, 2013)

Equal temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thirds, tritone, sixths, and major 7th get butchered in equal temperament :-(

Tritone and major 7th are already pretty dissonant, so it's harder to tell, but those thirds and sixths drive me a lil crazy.


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## Basti (Apr 16, 2013)

I know there's a lot of snazzy technical reasoning behind the TT fretboard and it sure looks like someone's done their homework on intonation and whatnot...

but as an Italian, I just see spaghetti.


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