# Why is there still racism?



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Apr 4, 2012)

I know it's a broad question but I was just discussing it with my mom. I told her about a part I read in Stephen King's new book 11/22/63. The part if you haven't read is a part when the main character arrives at a gas station (set in 1958, time travel ftw). He sees the bathrooms one labeled men, women, and colored. He followed the creek only to find out that the "colored" bathroom was a wooden board with a hole in it over a stream. It made me sick to my stomach to think of such intolerance.

I'm white and I was always raised to view everyone as equal. I have dated girls from almost every race except hispanic. I am currently involved with a african american chick (who's awesome  ) I have seen how interracial relationships are viewed and I just want to know why people are so damn racist.

I have lived in the South my entire life and I have been around racism. My grandfather is southern racist and it's one of the reasons I hate him. I don't see why people are so racist in a modern age. You'd think people would learn how to live together. I've taken Sociology classes (2 in fact) and I understand that racial tension is everywhere. 

I think everyone should be treated with respect and people should teach their kids not use such racial slander as the N word. I hate that word so much. I have heard little kids say it here and it's disappointing thata parent would allow such things from their children.

Any views guys? Share your views on racism and intolerable acts like those mentioned in the book? 
(sorry for such a long thread)


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 4, 2012)

Bad habits die hard...

Not an excuse... Just an observation.

Hopefully it's something that people will eventually grow out of, but I seriously doubt it. I feel as though no matter how we classify each other, man will ALWAYS find the need to be better than the next man--be it for reasons tangible or intangible. I know I sound like a pessimist, but racism--to me--is an addiction we simply won't kick; we'll likely only cross-addict and move on.

That doesn't mean that those of us who feel differently can't keep on keepin' on. Always have; always will.

I know it's something that's a bit disheartening to see, but we can't sweat things that are beyond our control.

The best you can really do is not teach it to your kids.


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## The Grief Hole (Apr 4, 2012)

Because there are a lot of small minded idiots on the planet. Sorry to lower the tone but...


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## Razzy (Apr 4, 2012)

Because people still talk about it.


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## The Grief Hole (Apr 4, 2012)

Because there are a lot of small minded idiots on the planet who don't realize that we are all, in some small way, brothers and sisters.


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## areyna21 (Apr 4, 2012)

Our government acts like parents to our society and like monkey see monkey do. Ive seen a rise in racism towards Mexicans being a first Genertion with my father being from Mexico. I would say Hispanic but the laws seem directly aimed at Mexican Americans. All the documentation laws specific to MA, the beating of the kid in palmdale, and arizonas campaign against anything Mexican with many states following suit. Racism is alive and its disgusting but its part of our daily lives. Our governments take part in it which makes it ok in some peoples eyes.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Apr 4, 2012)

The Grief Hole said:


> Because there are a lot of small minded idiots on the planet. Sorry to lower the tone but...



No it doesn't lower the tone. It's an honest answer. Small and close minded people are what makes our society so messed up. I get literally sick to my stomach when I hear people make racial slurs. 

Is this really what we're here for? To breed hate? 

My christian views (knowing some of you aren't. I'm not in anyone forcing my views on you) is that we are made in the image of God. The image is not a physical image but the mental image of God. The capability to have emotion and to love another human being. People are so close minded that the color of skin affects the way they view someone? The worst thing is when someone so close to God persay (my grandfather) judges other people by the color of their skin. No one has the right to judge people by the color of their skin.


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## WickedSymphony (Apr 4, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Bad habits die hard...
> 
> Not an excuse... Just an observation.



Pretty much nailed it.

It's shitty, and though it will probably never die out completely, it will hopefully decrease drastically as time goes on.

Edit: Fact is, viewing people as equals regardless of their race, nationality, gender, or whatever background is still a relatively young development in society. Many of our parents and grandparents were alive when people were fighting for even the most basic rights and equalities that we take for granted today.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm just so tired of hearing people make racist comments. It may decrease but the way things are, I don't think it will ever truly die. I mean people are teaching their kids and allowing them to make racial slurs. I mean my friends little brother is like 12 and he was saying the N word in front of his mom who was encouraging it


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## troyguitar (Apr 4, 2012)

There is still racism because there are still different races.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Apr 4, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> There is still racism because there are still different races.



Which is a pretty good point xD


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## synrgy (Apr 4, 2012)

"Us versus Them" is just an unfortunate part of the human condition, deeply rooted in the evolution of our species.

Some related insight with a humorous slant may be found here: 6 Brainwashing Techniques They're Using On You Right Now | Cracked.com


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## SenorDingDong (Apr 4, 2012)

Razzy said:


> Because people still talk about it.



This. 

I think that things such as BET, Black History Month, Puetro Rican pride parades, and racial groups and networks in general help keep racism alive, because in the long run all it is does is serve to separate races into categories, "uniting" "them" and yet building this huge wall between "them" and every other race 


When there is no "them," and only one "us," there will be no racism.


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## Fiction (Apr 4, 2012)

^ I came in to say exactly that "People still talk about it"

I also had some information to go with it, but it's 2am and I'm staggering home after some delicious beverages and don't want to make an ass of myself.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Apr 4, 2012)

Vision is such a major sense. There are always going to be fools/knuckleheads in EVERY race. and since people tend to make sweeping generalizations, they associate how a few idiots act with anyone that looks like them. It's not even just skin color. Its unfortunate, but a reality, and probably embedded in our survival instincts.


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## ibanezcollector (Apr 4, 2012)

I think the N word as we call it, is ridiculous, especially when main stream african american people use it and glorify it. Then when I person of different race uses it because he thinks its socially acceptable gets called a racist LOL 

Racism will be around forever, we will never get rid of it. *EVERYONE is racist to a point* I don't care who you are. Its part of life, its part of humans. 

IS IT UGLY? Yes it can be, and is, but there is nothing anyone is going to do to end it. 

Especially if mainstream media is around.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Apr 4, 2012)

ibanezcollector said:


> I think the N word as we call it, is ridiculous, especially when main stream african american people use it and glorify it. Then when I person of different race uses it because he thinks its socially acceptable gets called a racist LOL
> 
> Racism will be around forever, we will never get rid of it. *EVERYONE is racist to a point* I don't care who you are. Its part of life, its part of humans.
> 
> ...



I am truly disappointed with our modern society. If everyone thoughtlike ibanezcollector, we'd be in a far better state


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## pink freud (Apr 4, 2012)

Because people inherently dislike those who are different than themselves.

Racism/Ethnic Bigotry is the lowest hanging fruit, because it is the most obvious.
Other people dislike the ill, whether it be mental or physical.
Some dislike the other gender, others different sexualities.
Many dislike others based on others preferences (Beiber hate being a good example).

It all boils down to every being is in an existence in the first person perspective, and every being has different degrees of empathy towards others. Some can develop empathy for those they didn't have before, some never do. Likewise, some can shed empathy (usually happens in extreme circumstances, such as war against another group of people).


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## tacotiklah (Apr 4, 2012)

As long as there is personal insecurity, there will always be posturing and intolerance for others. Feeling worthless and self-loathing? Convince yourself that because you're white/straight/cismale/vegetarian/whatever, you're superior to everyone else. Suddenly you don't dislike yourself because then you start to feel special. Then it's ok to shit talk others because it makes you feel good. Then the circle of perpetuation continues because scapegoating comes it. Can't find a job? Damn dirty mexicans. Why are you so poor? It's gotta be those damn jews? Crime goes up? Yep, it's all on the blacks.

When the truth is there's too damn many unemployed people all fighting for the same job, which leads to not enough work for everybody, which causes poverty, which leads to some people resorting to theft and violence as a means to try and scrape a living.

Instead of looking at the problem with logical solutions, racists do exactly what Hitler did, use scapegoating as a means to unite under a common banner of hate.


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## SD83 (Apr 4, 2012)

What pink_freud & ghstofperdition said. 
The situation is a bit different in Germany, with all the shit that happened towards the mid of the last century. I think, at least where I live, we have rather few people who are openly racist, and I know a handful of older guys (70+) who use the German equivalent of the "N word" without meaning it as an insult, without any racist connotation. On the other hand, I have heard my ex-girlfriend & her dad talk negativly about people of turkish/arabic origin in general a lot (which, in my eyes, definitly qualifies as racism), while they never knew any of them except out of the media and some misogynic dumbass her sister used to date... if I was going by the same rule, I would have to be convinced that white men are generally stupid drug dealing assholes while Egyptians are all a bunch of cool guys, just because the only one I know is... generalisation. It's just like people who see Manowar and think that all metal is like that. Stupid, but that's what a lot of people are like.
It gets worse the worse the situation gets. The individual might think "Oh well, looks like I fucked things up", but as soon as someone puts the finger on another group shouting "It was them!"... it's just too easy to blame someone else, especially if that gives you the feeling of belonging to something that is good.
All that being said, I have no idea how someone can think that someone else is inferior to him because of color of skin, of hair, gender, sexual orientation or even taste in music. I think one should respect everyone & everything for what they are... unless they did something worthy of losing all respect (like, for example, Joseph Kony). If your skin is purple with yellow dots and your dating the tree down the road, that doesn't make you any better or worse than me, does it?
People should just stop teaching & preaching that one way of life, one type of life is better thant the other based on traditions and stuff like that. But I don't think that will happen any time soon, seeing that even in so called "modern" countries politicians who believe in this type of bullshit still get votes instead of stones thrown at them. 
Sorry for the rant


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Apr 4, 2012)

Because humans are humans. A large portion of humans are always going to be afraid/angry at those different than them, they're genetically predisposed for it. Maybe racism will be bred out of humans. I doubt it, though, at least in this millennium.


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## Powermetalbass (Apr 4, 2012)

Racism is forever. I don't say this because I'm some slack jawed bigot. I say it as a unfortunate truth. As humans we are always trying to categorize everything: Plants, animals, silverware and yes humans. Racism is an easy and visible way for people to categorize. As long as we have eyes we will categorize people by the colour of their skin. 

Regardless of what people think racism is not a one way street, and does not apply only to the negative. Black, White, Yellow, Green, and Technicoloured people all are racists in some manner. Any time a person comments on any other person race probably is factored in even on a subconcious level. When people think of hot big booty they think of a black girl (Kim Kardashian or Rhianna comes to mind) thinking of big booty being hot on a white girl (most people would puke at the thought of say....Rosie o'donnell!) 

Racism applies to other cultures labeling white people (its not a 1 way street). 'Cracker' for instance is a racists term. Also declaring history being made by DWG (Dead White Guys) is technically racist. Declaring your race is a racist act (I'm White, I'm Black and Proud, I'm Latina) all racists acts. 

You want to end racism. Gouge everyones eyes out.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 4, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> There is still racism because there are still different races.



This is pretty much what I was going to come and say.


As long as human nature remains unchanged, we will force each other into social and racial groups and discriminate accordingly. It's a lot easier to hate someone and blame problems on a group than to look at something logically, and figure out why something is the way it is.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 4, 2012)

Razzy said:


> Because people still talk about it.



Because not talking about something makes it go away


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 4, 2012)

JWGriebel said:


> This.
> 
> I think that things such as BET, Black History Month, Puetro Rican pride parades, and racial groups and networks in general help keep racism alive, because in the long run all it is does is serve to separate races into categories, "uniting" "them" and yet building this huge wall between "them" and every other race
> 
> ...



Having pride in one's origins is by no means an excuse to hate a person. That said, it wouldn't be the first time something existed for the sole purpose of opposing something else...


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## 7Mic7 (Apr 4, 2012)

I think is has more to do with the different cultures than the different races IMO.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 4, 2012)

7Mic7 said:


> I think is has more to do with the different cultures than the different races IMO.



Those are seen as one in the same generally speaking. 

(I'm well aware that this is not ALWAYS the case, I just don't see the need to split hairs when it's clear we all know what we mean when we say "race.")


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 4, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Having pride in one's origins is by no means an excuse to hate a person. That said, it wouldn't be the first time something existed for the sole purpose of opposing something else...



I think what he's getting at is that for instance black pride is socially accepted, but if I started talking about white pride some people would immediately associate that with Nazis. Therefore, it creates a bit of tension. It's wrong to feel that way, and personally I don't really get bothered by it as A. white people fuck things up so our history isn't rosy and B. we're all human beings, our history is shared, but I know some people do feel that way. It's a case of 'oh well they can celebrate their race and whatnot but if we do it then it's racist blah blah blah'. 

I hope I've worded this correctly, kinda touchy subject.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 4, 2012)

vampiregenocide said:


> I think what he's getting at is that for instance black pride is socially accepted, but if I started talking about white pride some people would immediately associate that with Nazis. Therefore, it creates a bit of tension. It's wrong to feel that way, and personally I don't really get bothered by it as A. white people fuck things up so our history isn't rosy and B. we're all human beings, our history is shared, but I know some people do feel that way. It's a case of 'oh well they can celebrate their race and whatnot but if we do it then it's racist blah blah blah'.
> 
> I hope I've worded this correctly, kinda touchy subject.



I get that but at the same time the term white pride also tends to bring up thoughts of white supremacist groups. I didn't make it that way and quite frankly it sounds a bit petty/needy to whine about that.

Affirmative action, Black History Month, etc... These are things WHITE PEOPLE created. We've never really had the power to do so ourselves. On that note, if such a thing bothers someone, I have no idea what to tell them.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 4, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I get that but at the same time the term white pride also tends to bring up thoughts of white supremacist groups. I didn't make it that way and quite frankly it sounds a bit petty/needy to whine about that.
> 
> Affirmative action, Black History Month, etc... These are things WHITE PEOPLE created. We've never really had the power to do so ourselves. On that note, if such a thing bothers someone, I have no idea what to tell them.



Hey man I'm not saying it's justified, it's just how some people seem to feel.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 4, 2012)

Oh I know. I wasn't trying to argue with you. I understood what was meant the first time; it just seems odd to hear such a complaint when his race/culture seems largely responsible for the problem he's describing. 

The issue really is that his *generation* wasn't responsible for it so it's hard to understand why shit is going on. But really we're just living in the aftermath of past ignorance. Some of us choose to blindly follow it and others choose to question it.


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## Breakdown (Apr 4, 2012)

Because you touch yourself at night...
No in all seriousness I believe that it's because we keep separating ourselves to some extent. I don't think it's intentional most people feel the most comfortable among their own kind but until we quit seeing color, which will never happen unless we all mix into one race in the future like the time immigrants in the Goobacks episode of south park, racism will always be around. Hopefully it will never be as bad as it was during the civil rights era in the US or during the 20's when the klan had immense influence in many parts of the country.


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## ArkaneDemon (Apr 4, 2012)

Racism is still around because there are people that think that "scientific racism" is actually real. Too many people believe that plotting IQ scores on a graph shows that some races are superior to others. They claim that Africa is, on average, less smart, than, say Europe. No shit, when Africa doesn't have anywhere near the amount of schools/universities/colleges/etc that Europe has, not to mention the fact that poor nutrition in the first three years of one's life causes permanent damage to the brain (resulting in poorer results), and that a large part of Africa is poorly nourished. Not to mention the more Western-centric development of IQ tests in general, economic and living conditions, and a million other things. All of these are somehow missed by racists, or labeled as unimportant. Protip: they are.

Lots of recent research is starting to point in the direction that races don't really exist, because of how much variation there is between people in general, and that the margin of variation is too high between people of their own "race", and that the differences between "races" are insignificant because of the aforementioned variation between human beings. 

And after all, if the current out-of-Africa human development theory is correct, which seems to be the case, then we're all derived from Homo Sapiens, or, as newer findings show, Homo Sapiens came out of Africa and met Homo Neanderthalensis around the Middle East, and parts of Europe, and their union resulted in what we are now.

Ironically enough, this means that Africans are the purest Homo Sapiens, so people who think that Africans are less-than-human are in for a treat 

Regardless, it doesn't matter in the end. Racism can be used as a tool to keep humanity divided and to maintain this division for as long as it can go. The same goes for sexism, or any other stupid, reactionary bullshit. If the majority of people could see through the bullshit, we'd surely move forward into a brighter future for all. There are going to be barriers between us and that future, and we should at least try to stomp some of them out, slowly but surely, as time rolls on, until we achieve a more realistic conception of our own humanity.

I'm assigning you all homework: each of you is to go out and curb stomp a racist. Report back when the task is done and you get a gold star


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## Explorer (Apr 4, 2012)

First off, regarding white people making a big deal out of races... am I really the only one who has been in black social gatherings and has heard rips on whites, Jews, amigos and so on? I guarantee that it's not just a white thing.

Secondly, I always find it hilarious when someone fetishizes a particular race. I've known more than one white girl who has talked about how she loves black guys... and by "black guys," she never means someone who's in college, but instead someone who is a stereotype of a gangsta. "I love black guys, and if you're not a gangsta, you're not really black in my eyes." What the fuck is wrong with you? You really think that being black means fronting and talking about being violent towards others? Sorry, but what is being embraced as being tolerant and accepting of another "race" is instead the worst type of stereotyping.

----

Lastly, given how much one can observe people making a big deal out of differences of religion (or lack thereof), politics, and other differences, I see this thread as another youthfully idealistic utopian hope. "If only everyone thought in this way, we'd be better off!" Not gonna happen. We practice primate politics, where although we profess to love everyone, we actually only love those we view as being like ourselves.


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## SenorDingDong (Apr 5, 2012)

vampiregenocide said:


> I think what he's getting at is that for instance black pride is socially accepted, but if I started talking about white pride some people would immediately associate that with Nazis. Therefore, it creates a bit of tension. It's wrong to feel that way, and personally I don't really get bothered by it as A. white people fuck things up so our history isn't rosy and B. we're all human beings, our history is shared, but I know some people do feel that way. It's a case of 'oh well they can celebrate their race and whatnot but if we do it then it's racist blah blah blah'.
> 
> I hope I've worded this correctly, kinda touchy subject.










Konfyouzd said:


> I get that but at the same time the term white pride also tends to bring up thoughts of white supremacist groups. I didn't make it that way and quite frankly it sounds a bit petty/needy to whine about that.
> 
> Affirmative action, Black History Month, etc... These are things WHITE PEOPLE created. We've never really had the power to do so ourselves. On that note, if such a thing bothers someone, I have no idea what to tell them.




I wholly disagree; why should it be petty that white men are considered _just_ white men, why is it wrong to have pride in their roots, and what's more, where is the political correctness for them? 

Why should every proud white male or female be considered a "racist" or an "extremist" or some other kind of -ist?

You see, it's that thinking--"well if they want to feel special, it's petty, but _we_ --insert race-- have the _right_ to feel special and be treated special"--that makes race an issue in the first place. 

Racism won't end because people can't seem to stop seeing a divider between skin colors, and what's more they're _okay_ with that. That's the terrible part; they say, "wasn't my fault" and wash their hands of it.




Explorer said:


> First off, regarding white people making a big deal out of races... am I really the only one who has been in black social gatherings and has heard rips on whites, Jews, amigos and so on? I guarantee that it's not just a white thing.



I've seen/heard it too. I used to have a ton of black friends (back when I had time ) and it could be very hostile with their families. Even the religious types consider themselves "above" white people and spend time in church trashing white people.


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## Painhawg (Apr 5, 2012)

Racism is thrown around like love is. There is a difference between racism and bigotry.

To dislike Mexican Americans because it is thought they steal jobs, or assuming they are illegal is not Racism, it's bigotry.

Believing they are illegal or stealing jobs because they are to stupid to do anything else is Racism.

Racism is the belief that one race is superior above all others.

Now with that out of the way.

You can thank the race baiters and hysteric hyperbolic media for many of the "episodes" of racism in the US. Does it exist? You better believe it. 

Does it exist in the way others would have you believe beyond the anectdotal? Not sure.

In my experience, no it's not. I have African-American, pure African, Asian, and Mexican-American friends and co-workers. We all work hard and get along together. We talk about race relations and the stuff that's on the news. Guess what?

They think it's as stupid as anyone else. If you were to take my neighborhood and workplace as a microcosm of society, then it is not as bad as the rotten apples would have you believe. If there was no racism where would Sharpton be? if there was no sexism what would Allred do for a living?

*Tinfoil hat time* Certain people and groups of people have a vested interest in keeping hate alive. Even our Government has an interest in it.

as I said before in another thread. People are the problem.


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## wlfers (Apr 5, 2012)

7Mic7 said:


> I think is has more to do with the different cultures than the different races IMO.



This is it completely, at least for me. I don't tend to candy coat discrimination as much as the average "I LOVE every race!" guy, and I admit making distinctions between different cultures of the same "race".

Differences in skin color is the most shallow reason and it simply serves as a distraction from the greater and complex interaction of people of differing physical features, language, and intangibles like religious/philosophical upbringing. 



Explorer said:


> First off, regarding white people making a big deal out of races... am I really the only one who has been in black social gatherings and has heard rips on whites, Jews, amigos and so on? I guarantee that it's not just a white thing.



I live in a predominately black and mexican area, and go to college in a mostly white city. I can easily say that some of the nastiest racism I've heard in person has been between blacks and mexicans be it fights erupting, comical bus occurrences etc. At the bus stop in front of my school a hispanic girl screamed this tirade against white people and the school system for failing her and not letting her take a GE class again because she had already flunked it twice. It went on for 5 minutes or so and all the white people just stood back unsure if it was safe to make any comment on the matter. 




Explorer said:


> Lastly, given how much one can observe people making a big deal out of differences of religion (or lack thereof), politics, and other differences, I see this thread as another youthfully idealistic utopian hope. "If only everyone thought in this way, we'd be better off!" Not gonna happen. We practice primate politics, where although we profess to love everyone, we actually only love those we view as being like ourselves.



This. Why there is hunger and poverty, why there is still murder? It would be much more of a useful dialogue to discuss how these issues can be relieved to a certain extent instead of asking why its not 100% gone.


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## Dan_Vacant (Apr 5, 2012)

Becasue people feel they have they need to voice all there opinions even the obscene ones that have little to no logic to support them.
Today when I was leaving my dads one of his neighbors started to play some music. It was audible in the hallway so another neighbor started to scream the "N" word I wanted to turn around and pop him in the mouth but that would be lowering myself.


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## Bigsby (Apr 5, 2012)

as long as there are people with different views whether its religion, race or politics there will be hate


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## larry (Apr 5, 2012)

i too, am still a little surprised by how long serious racism has propagated.
after all we _are_ living in modern times, so it would seem like racism
would've become a laughable memory by now. unfourtunately though, some
people still firmly adhere to it.


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## Blind Theory (Apr 5, 2012)

I didn't read any of this so this may be a repost but here goes:

I find a lot of racism is carried on through the people supposedly victimized by it. The past 10 times I've heard the "N" word, 8-9 of those times it was a black person who said it. Hell, I saw a picture of some music duo (I'm assuming they where) that had jackets and shirts with the "N" word strung across them. Guess what? They weren't white, they were black. 

You look at pop culture and you see that all racial stereotypes are reinforced through channels like comedians. I truly don't believe racism would be as predominant to us if mainstream media didn't play on it so much. Like Trayvon Martin, instantly turned into a racial problem. There is so much more to it than racism for the sake of racism. The only people who do that are in Aryan Nation or some shit. And they are such a small portion of the world. Pop culture won't let racism go. That is why we still have it like we have it today.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 5, 2012)

No one said you can't be proud. I tljust said that's how some view it. Do what you want no one rver officially said you can't be proud. You just seem either too "proud" or too afraid to do so in public. And yes you specifically to everyone that was butthurt ab my previous post.


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## ST3MOCON (Apr 5, 2012)

I think some people just get annoyed by other cultures in general. People from different cultures and sub-cultures talk differently and express themselves differently. It just rubs different cultures the wrong way. Cultural differences may start being like a pet peave and over time it creates a deep rooted dislike for a culture. From their may or may not evolve into hate. I think we just start looking at color instead of culture. I'll be the first to tell you I can get very annoyed by certain behaviors but only behavior effects me negatively definatly not the color of ones skin. Maybe that helped idk I'm on my iPhone taking a shit.


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## renzoip (Apr 6, 2012)

I think that part of the problem is that most people still think that the concept of "race" has any biological basis, when in fact, it does not. This is not to say that "race" does not exist. It does, but it is rather an arbitrary classification, product of the human mind. Yes, people have different skin colors, but "race" as we understand it today, is social construct. And like many social constructs, it does nothing for us other than dividing. This is not to say that "race" does not matter, it does, a lot IMO. Just because "races" do not have biological basis, it does not mean racism does not exist. 

Another part of the problem is that people try to sweep the issues regarding race under the rug with the pretext of us being a post racial society (far from the truth). Although it may sound contradictory, I believe that "colorblind racism" exist. Too often I see people claiming not to be racist trying to negate the disproportionate way in which minorities are affected by laws and institutions in society, undermining the history and the stigmas that have been attached to them. That to me is racist in itself. For example, "I am not racist, but I support legislation X and Y that just so happen to disproportionally affect A and B minority groups, not because I have anything against A and B people, but because I want order" Racism just does not jut happen coincidentally like that.


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## poopyalligator (Apr 6, 2012)

You would be surprised how many people are narrow minded and still think negatively about somebodies race based on nothing at all other than a name and appearance. I am a Latin American, and you wouldn't believe a lot of the stuff people have said about me. A prime example of this would be like when I was in college. In class my teacher was saying who had the best grades in class, and my name happen to be on top of the list, and when my professor said my name some guy says " Wow Herrera huh? Talk about affirmative action in progress". I was so pissed and said "Sorry Daddy's money didn't buy you that A, and the smart Mexican in your class is smarter than you and got a scholarship because he isn't a retarded racist asshole like you". I am a doctor now, so I have put a lot of time and effort to get where I am. All of the time I still get people thinking that I am just some ignorant guy just because of my name. I work in radiology and my tech will take the x-ray of somebody and then I take the time to analyze the picture and find the best way to treat the situation. You won't believe how many times the patient will be like "can you send the doctor back in" when I tell them what's up. I will tell them that "I am the doctor, the person you saw was a tech" and they won't believe me and ask to speak to the tech again because they assume that I am stupid and inferior because I am not white, and I am younger than my techs. Sadly I don't think I will ever be treated as well as somebody who was white, or had Smith as my last name. Don't get me wrong, I am super proud of who I am and nothing will ever change that, but other people will never even give me a chance because of the race I am. I know it isn't like that with just my race either.


I was raised colorblind and I never look down upon somebody because of their race or anything like that. I saw an interesting study the other day about racism at an early age. It was basically saying how most younger kids who are a minority are much less likely to be racist because they are taught adversity at a much younger age and are taught to accept everybody. I know it was like that in my home. I think it is something that they should promote a lot more in school at a younger age. Obviously not in a blatant way, but with exercises and such and teaching people communication skills at a younger age. Basically prejudice in general is a huge problem. Like with gay people. I honestly don't see why people are so hung up about not letting them get married. I think one day we will look back upon that and be ashamed of ourselves just like we are when we look back at not letting women vote, civil rights movement, Japanese internment camps. These are all just my random thoughts and experiences I have had. Hope I didn't offend anybody.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Apr 6, 2012)

JWGriebel said:


> This.
> 
> I think that things such as BET, Black History Month, Puetro Rican pride parades, and racial groups and networks in general help keep racism alive, because in the long run all it is does is serve to separate races into categories, "uniting" "them" and yet building this huge wall between "them" and every other race
> 
> ...



That is HIGHLY illogical. Racism doesn't come from a group of people wanting to see more of their kind on television and in media. There was a time, in my parents lifetime which wasn't long ago..when black people flipped through channels it was rare to see a black person and no matter WHAT show it was, black people stopped and watched it. Throwing a blanket over our differences breeds ignorance and THAT helps breed racism. What was done in the past needs to be mentioned so that it doesn't happen again and it's highly disrespectful to deny a group of people their story to tell and ways to ensure their people at least have a little something for themselves so their kids don't end up in the same situations they went through.


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## havocvulture10 (Apr 6, 2012)

Because God isn't nice.


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## Overtone (Apr 6, 2012)

As long as someone feels threatened by another race acting proud instead of ashamed there will be racism. Feeling like you are the one who gets to decide when enough is enough, and how equal "equal" needs to be is a controlling attitude that plays down the legitimacy of others' needs. Feeling threatened... feeling the need to to be in control... those are human weaknesses. An obvious way that they are manifested is racism, but there is also bullying, spousal abuse, parents who put their kids down and kids who don't respect their parents. It is doubtful that society at large will reach a stage in history where these negative emotions are kept in check. The world has already had Jesus Christ, Buddha, MLK, Ghandi, Mother Theresa and countless others to popularize the idea of letting your positive emotions guide your relationships with others and even that has not been enough. There are many good people who understand these things, but there is not much you can do about the kind of person who never thinks they are wrong about anything, puts their needs above everybody else's needs, and is unwilling to control their temper or be patient with anybody else.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Apr 7, 2012)

So proud of SSO for being smart.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Apr 7, 2012)

havocvulture10 said:


> Because God isn't nice.



Best....answer....EVER


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## tacotiklah (Apr 8, 2012)

havocvulture10 said:


> Because God isn't nice.



This would improve the accuracy of your post:








Even with my love of God and Jesus, I myself stand as living proof that god is the master troll. 

Back on topic:
An interesting point has been made earlier that I wanted to bring up again. Has anyone else noticed segregation by choice? When I went to visit some family back in Oklahoma back in '97, I had noticed this. Basically by unwritten/unspoken mutual consent, I had noticed that the black community had pretty much stayed to itself and the white community stayed to itself. While there were no laws requiring this, both sides pretty much wanted nothing to do with each other. Wtf is that about?


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## Explorer (Apr 8, 2012)

I've been thinking about this:



vampiregenocide said:


> I think what he's getting at is that for instance *black pride is socially accepted, but if I started talking about white pride some people would immediately associate that with (a negative group which was proud to be white)*. Therefore, it creates a bit of tension. It's wrong to feel that way, and personally I don't really get bothered by it as A. white people fuck things up so our history isn't rosy and B. we're all human beings, our history is shared, but I know some people do feel that way. It's a case of 'oh well they can celebrate their race and whatnot but if we do it then it's racist blah blah blah'.



I was trying to figure out if there was any difference between the two sorts of "pride," to explain why there might be negativity towards one and not the other.

And, having thought about it, and talked with different friends, I find there is a fundamental difference.

*"Black pride" arises from a fundamental identity forged by oppression and brutalization* by others. Blacks who have descended from slaves anywhere in Europe and North and South America had their ancestors brought there *by whites. So, regardless of where they are, that is a shared cultural identity.*

*By contrast, whites were never stripped of their ethnic identities by an outside group in the same way. *

*So, if people have an identity as Americans, or Brits, or Poles, etc., that's one kind of pride.*
*
But unlike "black pride," which is due to cultural identity which came from being slaves, "white pride" isn't tied to one shared experience. Instead, **"white pride" is purely about the color of one's skin.* That is a core value of groups like the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

Put another way: pride in something which unites you with someone else which is purely genetic is viewed negatively because it's purely by chance, and not something you did. *"Look, I'm white! Isn't that great! I'm proud to be white! Hey... you're not!" *laugh**

----

*Short version: "Black pride" is about having survived adversity. "White pride" is about celebrating a genetic difference. *


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## BucketheadRules (Apr 8, 2012)

I think, fundamentally, racism is still here because a sickeningly large number of people are unable to look past the colour of another human being's skin.

/obvious

I am unsure of where the mindset of certain ethnic groups being perceived as inferior comes from, because from a purely logical viewpoint, isn't every race the same underneath? We're all human, and AFAIK that means we're all evolved to the same level no matter what colour we are. There's no difference there, in other words, apart from skin colour, and why would that one thing make you inferior?

I think it's disgusting that even now, children are taught to be prejudiced and hateful towards different ethnic groups. We're all human. Under the skin we're all the same, and the skin doesn't make jack shit difference - so our flesh, bones and organs are stuffed into a different-coloured bag. So fucking what? We're all human, isn't that the important thing?

You'd think something as stupid, illogical and awful as racism would have died out by now, the fact it's still here is further evidence of how fucked up we are as a species. It doesn't make any sense, as well as being generally appalling and still far, far too common in society.



As I've said a few times, we're all human, yes, but some of us are less human than others - and skin colour isn't the deciding factor. 

Whether you care about it or not is.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 8, 2012)

Explorer said:


> I've been thinking about this:
> 
> I was trying to figure out if there was any difference between the two sorts of "pride," to explain why there might be negativity towards one and not the other.
> 
> ...




Completely agreed. Black pride makes more sense to me because of the history behind it. As you say, white people have never really been victims of mass persecution like other races have, in fact we've often been the ones triggering it. So we don't have any sort of valid racial pride. Of course, you should respect ad be proud of your roots, as positive of negative they shape your outlook on life, but I don't think there's much strength in basing pride purely on being white.


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

ArkaneDemon said:


> Racism is still around because there are people that think that "scientific racism" is actually real. Too many people believe that plotting IQ scores on a graph shows that some races are superior to others. They claim that Africa is, on average, less smart, than, say Europe. No shit, when Africa doesn't have anywhere near the amount of schools/universities/colleges/etc that Europe has, not to mention the fact that poor nutrition in the first three years of one's life causes permanent damage to the brain (resulting in poorer results), and that a large part of Africa is poorly nourished. Not to mention the more Western-centric development of IQ tests in general, economic and living conditions, and a million other things. All of these are somehow missed by racists, or labeled as unimportant. Protip: they are.
> 
> *Lots of recent research is starting to point in the direction that races don't really exist, because of how much variation there is between people in general, and that the margin of variation is too high between people of their own "race", and that the differences between "races" are insignificant because of the aforementioned variation between human beings. *
> 
> ...



This line is parroted on and on and on and has been for years. You could not be further from the truth. There are biological differences between races and they are not just skin deep.

The real question is, does that matter? It doesn't give any justification to treat individuals differently but the line you take is completely illogical. The anally retentive autist in me screams every time someone makes comments like these.


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## BucketheadRules (Apr 8, 2012)

McKay said:


> This line is parroted on and on and on and has been for years. You could not be further from the truth. There are biological differences between races and they are not just skin deep.
> 
> The real question is, does that matter?



What kind of biological differences? I assume you just mean "differences", not "inequalities".

Agree with your question though. My answer would be that I don't think it does matter. And that anyone who judges based on those differences is a fuck, and an unimaginative one at that.


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

renzoip said:


> I think that part of the problem is that most people still think that the concept of "race" has any biological basis, when in fact, it does not. This is not to say that "race" does not exist. It does, but it is rather an arbitrary classification, product of the human mind. Yes, people have different skin colors, but "race" as we understand it today, is social construct. And like many social constructs, it does nothing for us other than dividing. This is not to say that "race" does not matter, it does, a lot IMO. Just because "races" do not have biological basis, it does not mean racism does not exist.


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

Explorer said:


> *By contrast, whites were never stripped of their ethnic identities by an outside group in the same way**.*



Ottoman Empire in South East Europe. Central Asian Muslims forcibly converting and enslaving Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Illyrians and Dacians?

The Armenian Genocide is another example. This reminds me of the times local feminists have said things like 'whites can't know racial discrimination'. Tell that to the Irish. Or the inhabitants of the Canary Islands.


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

BucketheadRules said:


> What kind of biological differences? I assume you just mean "differences", not "inequalities".
> 
> Agree with your question though. My answer would be that I don't think it does matter. And that anyone who judges based on those differences is a fuck, and an unimaginative one at that.



All differences result in varying degrees of inequity. It's incredibly childish and immature not to be able to accept things like this objectively. That's not aimed at you by the way, it's a general observation.

Too many people have an idea/emotion and look for evidence to support it, rather than discovering evidence and allowing it and new discoveries to inform their ethical stance.


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## AK DRAGON (Apr 8, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> There is still racism because there are still different races.



Sad but True. Until 'WE ALL' consider ourselves Human instead of using labels that include ethnicity/religion/color/sex/weight/gender/culture it will continue well after we all die.



JWGriebel said:


> I think that things such as BET, Black History Month, Puetro Rican pride parades, and racial groups and networks in general help keep racism alive, because in the long run all it is does is serve to separate races into categories, "uniting" "them" and yet building this huge wall between "them" and every other race
> 
> When there is no "them," and only one "us," there will be no racism.





Konfyouzd said:


> Affirmative action, Black History Month, etc... These are things WHITE *LAWMAKERS *created. We've never really had the power to do so ourselves.



^^^ DING DING!! We have a winner!

The Media, ACLU, Gov't, and racial groups as a whole is why racism still exists. The media sensationalizes it when something big happens. Take the recent shooting of Treyvon Martin. A NBC producer manipulated the 911 tape to spin the truth (and thankfully got FIRED for it). Racial groups play the race card for justice despite whatever factors are involved in the event. Spike Lee caused undue harm to a couple when he gave the wrong address of George Zimmerman. The ACLU claims we need a federal anti-racial law. And Yes, Racism has Gov't help. Even after JFK signed Affirmative Action. Those in Gov't who think they know more than its people made special laws to help the minorities from 'us' *suppressive white men*. 

*An Example of Gov't Racism.* Here in Alaska there is a law that gives Alaska Native preference in job hiring. Meaning if I am qualified, I may not get the job if a less qualified Native applies for it. Is that fair? No, but I can't scream discrimination or I'd be labeled racist. I've probably have lost out on dozens of job opportunities due to that label but I'm not going to cry over spilled milk. The same thing happens with Gov't contracts. Native corporations get special consideration over normal businesses even if the normal business is cheaper. 

Anchorage's Prop 5 was defeated here last week. It was poorly worded sexual orientation non discrimination initiative. I'm all for anyone for any job as long as you meet the 'job' qualifications. I knew if it had passed there would be some who would exploit the loophole. 

One of these days I know I will be the minority. Being an old, English speaking, white man who worked all his life. 

This is my feelings exactly

_I believe in equal rights for everyone and special treatment for no one_.----*Jesse James*


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## Explorer (Apr 8, 2012)

McKay said:


> Ottoman Empire in South East Europe. Central Asian Muslims forcibly converting and enslaving Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Illyrians and Dacians?
> 
> The Armenian Genocide is another example. This reminds me of the times local feminists have said things like 'whites can't know racial discrimination'. Tell that to the Irish. Or the inhabitants of the Canary Islands.



Ah, so the whites in Britain should be able to express "white pride" and feel a shared cultural bond with the Greeks and Bulgars?

You are reiterating what I said, that people take pride in belonging to their different cultures. In your examples, you are talking about various groups who got repressed, and were able to talk specifically about which ethnic groups they were. 

Given your examples, that means you can perceive the difference between those peoples, and the difference between those cultures and the culture which gave rise to the shared identity known as "black pride." 

And, if you don't see the difference, I'm happy to try to explain it further. I didn't think it would be so hard to perceive, but clearly it's not as obvious as I thought. 

----

(Humorous observation: The group known as the Pilgrims in the US fled Europe to escape too much religious tolerance. Salem witch trials, public punishments like the stocks, the whole deal. I like the call for recognition of the intolerance suffered by whites coming from there.)


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## Treeunit212 (Apr 8, 2012)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I'm white and I was always raised to view everyone as equal.



Bam. The answer is right there. Hate is learned, and therefore so is racism. Even after segregation was finally deemed illegal (almost exactly 100 years after slavery was  ), racism in the south and anywhere else went from de jure to a de facto part of life, reinforced by societal attitudes and media image. Hate tends to lead to an equal and opposite reaction of more hate, and even Martin Luther King Jr. couldn't quell the backlash and reaction to those laws he helped push for.

It's unfortunate, but it's true. I personally think that as time passes (and we discover another life form to fear out in space  ), racism will become irrelevant as less and less parents teach their kids to hate. Desegregating public schools was HUGE for this, as children are now interacting with all kinds of kids of different races and realizing that the over privileged white kid is much more likely to steal your juice box than the black kid. As long as progressive attitudes trump the old fashion ideas of the past and Obama serves a second term and miraculously continues to NOT take away racist bigots' guns and rights, we shall overcome. 







Edit: Racism will continue to exist for as long as society tolerates it (Trayvon Martin shooting).


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

Explorer said:


> Ah, so the whites in Britain should be able to express "white pride" and feel a shared cultural bond with the Greeks and Bulgars?
> 
> You are reiterating what I said, that people take pride in belonging to their different cultures. In your examples, you are talking about various groups who got repressed, and were able to talk specifically about which ethnic groups they were.
> 
> ...



I was correcting a false assertion, not disagreeing with your message.


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## Explorer (Apr 8, 2012)

Ah, I get it! You missed the context of my post, and possibly some of this discussion.



Explorer said:


> "Black pride" arises from a fundamental identity forged by oppression and brutalization by others. Blacks who have descended from slaves anywhere in Europe and North and South America had their ancestors brought there by whites. So, regardless of where they are, that is a shared cultural identity.
> 
> By contrast, whites were never stripped of their ethnic identities by an outside group in the same way.



You went for realtively smaller acts, rather than the large history I was talking about.



McKay said:


> Ottoman Empire in South East Europe. Central Asian Muslims forcibly converting and enslaving Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Illyrians and Dacians?
> 
> The Armenian Genocide is another example. This reminds me of the times local feminists have said things like 'whites can't know racial discrimination'. Tell that to the Irish. Or the inhabitants of the Canary Islands.





McKay said:


> I was correcting a false assertion, not disagreeing with your message.



*So, my assertion is false?:

Whites in Europe and the Americas have never stripped of their ethnic identities by an outside group in the same way as blacks in Europe and the Americas.* 

My assertion might be false in your eyes, but one would have to either bring a lot of evidence to the table, or ignore a lot of facts, to argue that point. Assuming the former, I'm happy to hear the evidence.

Otherwise... *WTF?* *laugh*


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

Explorer said:


> So, my assertion is false?:
> 
> Whites in Europe and the Americas have never stripped of their ethnic identities by an outside group in the same way as blacks in Europe and the Americas.
> 
> ...



Turkic peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe

Slavery in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arab slave trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a very strange thing to laugh at really. This isn't a subjective point, as you seem to see it. Your assertion was incorrect. Above is the history to prove it. I'm not sure what room left there is for argument. Laughing just shows immaturity and arrogance.


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## Treeunit212 (Apr 8, 2012)

McKay said:


> Turkic peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...





Agreed. Can you say... Africa?


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## McKay (Apr 8, 2012)

Treeunit212 said:


> Agreed. Can you say... Africa?



How do you mean?


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## The Reverend (Apr 8, 2012)

McKay said:


> Turkic peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...



You got Explorer, man. Clearly, European whites have just as extensive and recent a history with racial oppression as non-African blacks.

I think most of you on this train of thought are confusing racial pride for racial superiority. Replace it with nationalism; it's logical to say "I am proud of my country," but not logical to say "My country is better than all other countries." Unless, of course, your country is better than all others in some narrow aspect.


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## Treeunit212 (Apr 8, 2012)

McKay said:


> How do you mean?



The Berlin Conference basically divided the country into lines dictated by resources and other strategic interests of powers such as AustriaHungary, Belgium, Denmark, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Norway, and of course the United States.

They didn't take into account existing tribal lines of territory or anything like that, and even if the land was still deemed "African-owned", whoever owned the resources owned the country.

The POINT is that whenever Imperial powers step in and change the way things are done, even when invited, there is always a cultural blow back. Whether or not it is beneficial is another matter, but claiming that a power such as Europe has never meddled into the affairs of others or deemed said people inferior in any way is ridiculous. Dangerous generalizations are still made today; look at the image all Muslims have been given in light of the middle eastern wars. It's just plain ignorance in my eyes. 

Maybe I'm missing your point, but that's what I got out of it.


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## wlfers (Apr 9, 2012)

Treeunit212 said:


> but claiming that a power such as Europe has never meddled into the affairs of others or deemed said people inferior in any way is ridiculous.



I didn't see anywhere in this thread where he made that claim.


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## Treeunit212 (Apr 9, 2012)

athawulf said:


> I didn't see anywhere in this thread where he made that claim.



You're right. I was applying the concepts of racial pride/identity with nationalism, and how they've been tampered with by European influences. 

(There's a reason Egyptians speak English and Congo speaks French)


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## wlfers (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying. But it goes both ways too, think about the occupation of Spain by the Moors as just one example.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 3, 2012)

Why did this thread die?


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## The Reverend (Nov 3, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> Why did this thread die?



Because I burned everybody. 


Probably because no one will actually change their fundamental opinions. Debating things like this only serves to further dogmatize any subjective opinion or view on something. That's most of the reason why I even engage in online discussions. Occasionally, I learn something I didn't know, but most of the time it just deepens my own understanding of my views as I defend them from others.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

Racism will never cease to exist. It's not something natural. Racism is a consequence of the colonial expansion of western nations. 

Also [email protected] those claiming that racism contradicts Christian beliefs/values. Hadn't the colonialists been Christians, racism wouldn't exist.


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## BornToLooze (Nov 4, 2012)

Instead of talking about why you think people are racist look at it this way. From probably 6th or 7th grade till being in college for 2 years every single black person I met was lazy, felt entitled to everything, cheated on everything in school, stole, smoked and sold dope. This got even worse after Katrina happened. Most of the Mexican people that were in my classes were the same way, and the only way any of them would speak English was threatening to send them to the office. However when I was in college I met some black people and Mexicans that were decent people and I treated them as such. Instead of treating everybody equal, I tend to treat people how they act. If you are a decent person, I'll treat you as such, regardless of race, if you want to lie, cheat, steal and smoke dope, then I'll treat as such, regardless.

Add to that applying for a job somewhere and being straight out told, "we don't hire crackers, only Mexicans and Niggas." So to anyone saying that white people aren't discriminated against, you're full of shit. I can't count the jobs I haven't been able to get because I'm white and the business is owned by Mexicans and they only want to hire Mexicans, but instead of crying about discrimination, I just apply somewhere else because if a place is going to be like that then i don't want to work there.




Explorer said:


> *Short version: "Black pride" is about having survived adversity. "White pride" is about celebrating a genetic difference. *



That's something else, because I'm proud of who I am, I'm racist. There isn't anything wrong with being proud of being white. I'm proud I'm white, I'm proud I'm from Texas, I'm proud I'm a guy, I'm proud that I'm straight, yet the way most people are today that makes me about as bad as Hitler and Mussolini. 

When I was a junior in high school was when the last election was, so of course everyone was talking about who they wanted elected and of course everyone was talking about how they wanted Obama to get elected because we need change and having white presidents is racist, ect. Now when they asked me my opinion on him, despite being the only person who could name either persons policies or even who the current president was, because I was white and didn't support Obama that means I hate him because he's black.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

BornToLooze said:


> Instead of talking about why you think people are racist look at it this way. From probably 6th or 7th grade till being in college for 2 years every single black person I met was lazy, felt entitled to everything, cheated on everything in school, stole, smoked and sold dope. This got even worse after Katrina happened. Most of the Mexican people that were in my classes were the same way, and the only way any of them would speak English was threatening to send them to the office. However when I was in college I met some black people and Mexicans that were decent people and I treated them as such. *Instead of treating everybody equal, I tend to treat people how they act. *If you are a decent person, I'll treat you as such, regardless of race, if you want to lie, cheat, steal and smoke dope, then I'll treat as such, regardless.
> 
> That's something else, because I'm proud of who I am, I'm racist. *There isn't anything wrong with being proud of being white. I'm proud I'm white, *I'm proud I'm from Texas, I'm proud I'm a guy, I'm proud that I'm straight, yet the way most people are today that makes me about as bad as Hitler and Mussolini.



That's pretty much what I do. Treat people because of WHO they are and not for what they look like.

But I can't understand your pride. You were born white. Is that an accomplishment? Are you smarter because you are white? There are many "white" scientists and famous people. Are you more capable/more intelligent than other people just because you are white? How many symphonies have you written? What have you invented? Those are questions you need to ask to yourself before gaining a false sense of pride. Your skin color and bone features don't determine who you are and what you can create. 

I think black pride is a positive thing. Blacks have been and will always be treated as scum, which is sad. However I can't agree with the manifestation of that black pride, namely becoming a rapper, wearing ridiculous clothes and being illiterate on purpose. 

White pride, on the other hand, is not a positive thing. You are basically proud of belonging to a "race" or rather vaguely defined ethnic group that is basically guilty for most of humanities worst atrocities and crimes. How can you be proud of that?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 4, 2012)

I have djent pride


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## MrPepperoniNipples (Nov 4, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> I think black pride is a positive thing. Blacks have been and will always be treated as scum, which is sad. However I can't agree with the manifestation of that black pride, namely becoming a rapper, wearing ridiculous clothes and being illiterate on purpose.
> 
> White pride, on the other hand, is not a positive thing. You are basically proud of belonging to a "race" or rather vaguely defined ethnic group that is basically guilty for most of humanities worst atrocities and crimes. How can you be proud of that?



I feel that this is a huge misconception, that when people say they're 'proud of being black' it means the same thing as being 'proud of being white.'

When people hear "proud to be black" they think they're hearing "proud of my culture/heritage" and it's all fine and dandy.
But when people hear "proud to be white" they think they're hearing "proud that I'm white" and it's suddenly a problem.
On paper they may mean the same thing but the words/phrases only have the meaning as you give them.

There's a big difference between being proud of ones race and being proud of ones heritage.

Personally, I think being proud of race whether you're black, white, brown, red, purple orange or blue is just silly.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

MrPepperoniNipples said:


> I feel that this is a huge misconception, that when people say they're 'proud of being black' it means the same thing as being 'proud of being white.'
> 
> When people hear "proud to be black" they think they're hearing "proud of my culture/heritage" and it's all fine and dandy.
> But when people hear "proud to be white" they think they're hearing "proud that I'm white" and it's suddenly a problem.
> ...



I am sorry, but I believe most people nowadays saying "I am proud I am white" subconciously associate that statement with the illusion of superiority that is undermining Western civilization.


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## MrPepperoniNipples (Nov 4, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> I am sorry, but I believe most people nowadays saying "I am proud I am white" subconciously associate that statement with the illusion of superiority that is undermining Western civilization.



I thought that was the point I was making


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

MrPepperoniNipples said:


> I thought that was the point I was making



I guess I misunderstood you. But didn't you say that both statements mean the same for the members of the respective ethnic groups? I am just saying it doesn't. Perhaps on the paper, but not for the people involved.


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## MrPepperoniNipples (Nov 4, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> I guess I misunderstood you. But didn't you say that both statements mean the same for the members of the respective ethnic groups? I am just saying it doesn't. Perhaps on the paper, but not for the people involved.



I was trying to say they were different, haha

We seem to see eye to eye on the subject 

Looking back I could have been clearer


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

MrPepperoniNipples said:


> Looking back I could have been clearer


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## tm20 (Nov 4, 2012)

could be a genetic thing. reproducing only with someone of the same race will propagate the genes for your race as opposed to another race. selfish gene theory numsayin


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 4, 2012)

Treeunit212 said:


> You're right. I was applying the concepts of racial pride/identity with nationalism, and how they've been tampered with by European influences.
> 
> (*There's a reason Egyptians speak English* and Congo speaks French)


 

wat


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 4, 2012)

Again with this thread... Perhaps this is an American preoccupation, which is often apparent from skype calls with friends in the states.

Provocative statement; What I can't understand is how quickly the sweeping generalisations appear; the entirety of an ethnic group, occasionally mentioned are cultural aspects...

Most often this flawed rhetoric is used as the most powerful insight a person can find in the moment to sum up their passion aimed at an individual, without intending to slur an entire swathe of the word's population.

We live in an era of mass economic migration and destabilisation of fiat currencies. Often political rhetoric is aimed at migrants to appease the anger of presently indigenous electorates, covertly avoiding more difficult economic truths and creating scapegoats, as a means of political agitation.

Seeking participation in an artificial and arbitrary *group* reeks of manipulation; all "whatever" people etc. Ultimately, all living beings are individuals operating under the responsibilities of freewill and CAN NEVER BE JUDGED AS A GROUP, only as individuals.

Thus, the principles of racial grouping are the flawed tools of those that would seek to manipulate people or harm an individual with erroneous and, ultimately, blunt weapons.

Racism is obselete.
It represents a catastrophically flawed perspective on reality. Groups are the tools of convenience for like minded individuals channeling their efforts towards a singular higher purpose. No group is without divergence, as is the nature of individualism. Heirarchical social orders present us with the source of culpability and the opportunity to review historical events with regards to the effects of individualism through the progress of groups. To generalise is to err, for without specificity nothing meaningful can result.

Does the work of any individual contribute towards the grandeur of a specific race, or does it speak more to the quality of the individual?

I would've thought the unrivalled American spirit of individualism to compete in free market capitalism and the pursuit of happiness would've of put them above such pettiness as arbitrary and random racial prejudice, as those guiding principles focus the spotlight on the *individual*, not the group.

Does even humanities finest solution to the divergence of individual thought, democracy, cater to the ethics of freedom and the progression of mankind?

Anyway, there's "No i in TEAM!". 

Which group do you feel most akin to? Human being first, musician second right? 


In a national museum where multiple works are gathered, does it credit the habitat which produced these artists or does it credit the individuals who produced them?


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 4, 2012)

Regarding employment opportunities and racial exclusion.

Often small businesses will prefer to hire from within their ethnic background by means of cultural convenience and strengthening their position in the community. This is a product of civic planning and ghetto-isation, where migrants are moved wholesale into a community or are encouraged to relocate to benefit the owners of such businesses.

Many areas near where I live have become homes to a variety of migrants including Korean, Indian, South African ("white refugees"), Turkish, Kenyan, Jamaican... Really long list... which over time have adapted the enviroment to suit their cultures.
In my opinion it celebrates the diversity of humanity and celebrates the joys of life.

Recent improvements to employment laws have added significant obstacles to those who seek to import labour from overseas and exploit them, which is often why they seek to employ the vulnerable from within their own racial or cultural heritage.
People who have lived here longer are aware of their (historically hard earned over generations) rights and do not represent such easily exploited opportunities.

The biggest problem with this type of operation is not the appearence of outward racism, it is racially introverted predation. It is also illegal. It's called... Slavery.

*Sorry for the writing style, feeling profound today*


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## tacotiklah (Nov 4, 2012)

Well as long as there are people with insecurity issues, there's gonna be racism and bigotry. Insecure people develop egos to compensate, and as a result, nothing is their fault, so it has to be the fault of others that are different than them; no matter how unrealistic that is. 
People have this weird idea that they are somehow better than others, and the process of dehumanization continues. 
How to fix racism? Get racist people to know their place and shut the hell up.


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## renzoip (Nov 4, 2012)

Honestly, I used to think that history moved in a sort of progressive linear way. That after experiencing the horrors of racism, we would gradually move towards a ever decreasing less racist society until racism and systematic discrimination is almost fully eradicated. I know this has been the assumption for a lot of other people too. However, I now believe that we cannot really tell how things will play out in the future, and how will it affect society. So I think society could well become more racist in the future than it is now. In fact, I remember reading articles last week that showed that US society was now actually more racist than it was 4 years ago, with more people showing negative biases towards african americans, latinos, and muslims. Even those who claim not to be racist show greater support for policies that targeted minority groups disproportionately. Not to mention the rise of far-right nationalist (who are racist) in countries like Greece, Russia, and other european countries (to a lesser extent). It only takes an economic crisis to bring out the racist in many societies. 

I think that as long as there are people who believe they are benefiting from the existence and expansion of racism/discrimination, racism will still exist. Whatever this real or perceived privilege may be probably varies from racist to racist. So, because some people have vested interests in maintaining racism alive, I think just giving it time is not such a great idea. I actually think that racism (specially institutional racism) must be confronted, and strong hand action must be taken; kinda like how it was taken during the forced integration period in the US. Of course, there will be people saying this is tyrannical and whatnot. But I don't believe the rights of minorities (and I'm not talking just about political rights) should not be made a matter of policy and put to votes by the majorities. Also, I don't see the racist wanting to just peacefully surrender whatever they believe to be getting out of racism.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

The problem with racism is that most people believe that its worst manifestation is the bald, ugly-as-hell redneck guy who has Nazi symbols tatooed all over his body and keeps memorabilia from that period in his basement. The worst kind of racism is the one that is cultural. Racism is nothing but a system of power based on the passing of convictions about the physical and more importantly, psychic characteristics of ethnic groups. In that sense, we are all racist.

Why? Because when we see a black person we think the following about him/her:
-He is dumber, less civilized, more violent, more aggressive, less educated, a lot louder than the white guy next to him.
The same thing applies to non-white people. 

When people see white people they don't tend to associate the skin colour and facial characteristics to any sort of qualities. It's because white people are viewed as individuals in the first place. Being white is "normal", not "exotic".

Another thing to take into consideration is that not white people are guilty for perpetuating racism. Non-white people are more racist than whites. True story. In countries like Brasil, for example, being white is like a blessing, a sign of power and privilege, while being black is a sign of poverty, stupidity and ignorance. And that in a country whose culture is basically African...

Since racism is about power and privilege, and both things can't exist without subjugated people, racism will continue to exist until non-white people stop treating white people like they are better and deserve to be treated better. The day some eurotrash guy goes to some country of the third world on vacation and doesn't get special treatment/better treatment than a person of "color" (I really dislike this denomination), is the day racism begins to weaken.


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## The Reverend (Nov 4, 2012)

I think that instead of delineating the many ways modern society is racist, we should think about how to solve it, if it is something that can be solved. 

In conversations about racism, it generally boils down to someone saying that at some point people will cease to care about the multifarious factors that bring about or perpetuate racism, and that only then will it disappear. Is there anything more concrete that we can do about? How would we go about removing what I call the 'black inferiority complex'? How do we redirect our media from creating a white superiority complex?

Let's not ask why there's still racism, let's try to end it. On SSO. Today. For real.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 4, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> I think that instead of delineating the many ways modern society is racist, we should think about how to solve it, if it is something that can be solved.
> 
> In conversations about racism, it generally boils down to someone saying that at some point people will cease to care about the multifarious factors that bring about or perpetuate racism, and that only then will it disappear. Is there anything more concrete that we can do about? How would we go about removing what I call the 'black inferiority complex'? How do we redirect our media from creating a white superiority complex?
> 
> Let's not ask why there's still racism, let's try to end it. On SSO. Today. For real.



Do you know what's dangerous about ideas? Once an ideology is out there, and it appeals to many, it can never be destroyed. That's why nationalsocialism as an idea is still alive, for example. 

As I stated in my post. You can't end racism. It's about power and privilege. Things that aren't given up easily.


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## renzoip (Nov 4, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> I think that instead of delineating the many ways modern society is racist, we should think about how to solve it, if it is something that can be solved.
> 
> In conversations about racism, it generally boils down to someone saying that at some point people will cease to care about the multifarious factors that bring about or perpetuate racism, and that only then will it disappear. Is there anything more concrete that we can do about? How would we go about removing what I call the 'black inferiority complex'? How do we redirect our media from creating a white superiority complex?
> 
> Let's not ask why there's still racism, let's try to end it. On SSO. Today. For real.



I agree. I believe racism should be engaged in two levels, at the institutionalized level (which is the most important level IMO) and at the personal prejudice level. 

As far as the institutional level, I believe things like affirmative action can certainly help more equitable representation of society in areas like education, government, finance, etc. I know for sure some merit fascist out there will hate this idea. But it's an idea, I'm sure other things like heavy investment in education for impoverished areas will sure help reduce the need for things like affirmative action down the road, once the playing field has been leveled a bit more. I'm sure one could argue that the majority group could possibly become resentful of these policies and become more racist against the minorities that are benefiting from them. So, there should also be a heavy hand on hate crimes.


As far as personal prejudice...that's a bit more difficult, but again, I think a lot can be done by promoting an inclusive type of education instead of conforming with formalities like "black history month" or "hispanic history month". I think different version of American history, that better document the experiences of minorities, should be taught. Civic education is also a good idea. Also, if the government really care about this issue, they could heavily invest in the corporate media to influence people's view and convince them that is in their best interest to reduce racism, kinda how they did when they wanted to convince people that the war in Iraq was in in their best interest.

Forced integration, at whatever level, will not be easy, and will not be pretty. It wasn't in the past, and it won't be in the future. But I am optimistic that society will be better of in the long run. There is nothing that guarantees that future generations will be less racist, or that people who benefit from racism will have a change of heart that will lead to a peaceful transition to an integrated non-racist multicultural society.


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## axxessdenied (Nov 4, 2012)

Racism is bullshit.

I don't care what skin colour you are. If you're an idiot. I'm going to treat you like an idiot. Has nothing to do with skin colour.

How do you get rid of racism? Start by better educating people. Teach them the truth. Not some tweaked version of the truth like is frequently taught. 
Like the whole slavery thing with Europeans / Americans and Africans. It had nothing to do with the skin color of the slaves. It just so happens that Africa had a *legal* slave trade going. Europeans didn't go to Africa and rape and pillage villages and steal black people to bring over to America. They were purchased legally from Africans. 
Prime example of it coming down to education. Slavery was a common thing back in those times and was only made illegal in Britain in the early 1800s. It was still a legal business in Africa. So, blacks and whites deserve equal blame.

Education is the single best tool for moving our society forward.


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## YngwieJ (Nov 4, 2012)

axxessdenied said:


> I don't care what skin colour you are. If you're an idiot. I'm going to treat you like an idiot.



I've seen a few people put forth this idea in this discussion, and I think this is a problem itself. When you see an idiot, you treat them like an idiot. When I see an idiot, I treat him/her like a human being who might not have had an education that was as good as mine, or parents who pushed them to attain higher education, or maybe they just didn't pay as much attention in school. But that doesn't mean they should be treated like shit. While it may be convenient to bash a stupid person and say it's his own fault for being stupid, it's never that simple. We are all victims of our surroundings.



axxessdenied said:


> Education is the single best tool for moving our society forward.


I can't argue with that.


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## wlfers (Nov 4, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> Racism will never cease to exist. It's not something natural. Racism is a consequence of the colonial expansion of western nations.
> 
> Also [email protected] those claiming that racism contradicts Christian beliefs/values. *Hadn't the colonialists been Christians, racism wouldn't exist*.



Really now? 



m3l-mrq3z said:


> White pride, on the other hand, is not a positive thing. You are basically proud of belonging to a "race" or rather vaguely defined ethnic group that is basically guilty for most of humanities worst atrocities and crimes. How can you be proud of that?




Part of this statement is pretty unwittingly western/eurocentric in itself. You seem to disregard other cultures' histories separate from their interactions with western culture. Somehow our history, wars and atrocities are more terrible and valid than their own personal experience with war and genocide. 

On the topic of pride and "How can you be proud of that?" defining an entire color/culture/ethnic group/whatever by the actions of a subset of said group seems to be much of the problem behind racism that you're talking against. So why is it ok for you to do the same? It would seems if you disagree with the notion of being proud, you should also disagree with feeling shamed by your race.


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## ASoC (Nov 5, 2012)

ibanezcollector said:


> I think the N word as we call it, is ridiculous, especially when main stream african american people use it and glorify it. Then when I person of different race uses it because he thinks its socially acceptable gets called a racist LOL
> 
> Racism will be around forever, we will never get rid of it. *EVERYONE is racist to a point* I don't care who you are. Its part of life, its part of humans.
> 
> ...



I agree completely. The whole issue is bullshit IMO because by our nature we judge people who we see as different.

The first thing you said is something that has always bugged me, for several reasons. I have a number of opinions (probably offensive) about this. I'll keep quiet about most of them and just say this: If there is a word that offends you, you shouldn't be using it. Using an offensive word to identify with other people sends out the signal that you're ok with the word and not offended by it.


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## axxessdenied (Nov 5, 2012)

YngwieJ said:


> I've seen a few people put forth this idea in this discussion, and I think this is a problem itself. When you see an idiot, you treat them like an idiot. When I see an idiot, I treat him/her like a human being who might not have had an education that was as good as mine, or parents who pushed them to attain higher education, or maybe they just didn't pay as much attention in school. But that doesn't mean they should be treated like shit. While it may be convenient to bash a stupid person and say it's his own fault for being stupid, it's never that simple. We are all victims of our surroundings.
> 
> 
> I can't argue with that.


Let me rephrase that a bit. I didn't mean an idiot in the sense of book smarts. More in the... making retarded life choices and never listening to peoples good advice and wondering why your life is messed up... kind of idiots 

Prime examples... people in their mid-late twenties that still act like hardcore, gangster thugs...


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> I have djent pride



Goddammit, Stealth...


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## axxessdenied (Nov 5, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> You are basically proud of belonging to a "race" or rather vaguely defined ethnic group that is basically guilty for most of humanities worst atrocities and crimes. How can you be proud of that?


Are you serious? 
Might as well be calling us crackers with a statement like that.

All of our predecessors are quilty of horrendous crimes against humanity. Blacks, whites, browns, whatever. We've all been there at one point or another. Greed and power corrupts people no matter what skin colour they are.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

Greed, power and *opportunity*... 

And unfortunately a past lack thereof (opportunity) sometimes makes current generations feel entitled to it despite having done little to deserve it...


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 5, 2012)

axxessdenied said:


> Are you serious?
> Might as well be calling us crackers with a statement like that.
> 
> All of our predecessors are quilty of horrendous crimes against humanity. Blacks, whites, browns, whatever. We've all been there at one point or another. Greed and power corrupts people no matter what skin colour they are.



So are you a relativist? I am sorry, but I never heard of mass genocide being perpetrated by black people. Can you enlighten me?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

Aren't Africans killing each other in pretty large numbers in some countries? You don't have to kill another race for it to be bad...


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## Semichastny (Nov 5, 2012)

Europe was also extremely cramped which contributed to a state of near constant warfare and innovation, if black people had lived in Europe it wouldn't have changed history in any dramatic way.



m3l-mrq3z said:


> ...but I never heard of mass genocide being perpetrated by black people. Can you enlighten me?








http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Darfur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War (pgymies were hunted and eaten by both sides)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanzibar_Revolution#Aftermath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Ethiopia)


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 5, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Aren't Africans killing each other in pretty large numbers in some countries? You don't have to kill another race for it to be bad...



Which Africans? Morrocans and Algerians? Tanzanians? Be specific.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

You're on the internet... Don't you know how to Google things? 

"AFRICAN GENOCIDE"


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 5, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Rwandan Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You're on the internet... Don't you know how to Google things?
> 
> "AFRICAN GENOCIDE"



Typing "African genocide" seemed to me as logical and practical as typign "Asian genocide" or "Latin American genocide". Some people really think Africa is a country...

I love how the article redeems colonial powers from any responsability. But hey, it is wikipedia.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

Well that's what I typed in and guess what? I found that article that *should* have satisfied your query... But clearly that was too hard for you. Clearly you're just too intelligent to be bothered with considering the obvious. I know Africa isn't a country we learned it as one of the SEVEN CONTINENTS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL... 

But yea... I bow to your vast knowledge of seemingly absolutely nothing...


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 5, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Well that's what I typed in and guess what? I found that article that *should* have satisfied your query... But clearly that was too hard for you. Clearly you're just too intelligent to be bothered with considering the obvious. I know Africa isn't a country we learned it as one of the SEVEN CONTINENTS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL...
> 
> But yea... I bow to your vast knowledge of seemingly absolutely nothing...



I pity people that start insulting as soon as they run out of arguments. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. How about a book?

http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/volumes/2002/2-1/magnarella2-1.pdf


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## Semichastny (Nov 5, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> Typing "African genocide" seemed to me as logical and practical as typign "Asian genocide" or "Latin American genocide". Some people really think Africa is a country...



We were talking about race and you asked for "black" genocide. Any genocide committed by people racially classified as African fits that. This seems like a straw-man argument.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> I pity people that start insulting as soon as they run out of arguments. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. How about a book?
> 
> http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/volumes/2002/2-1/magnarella2-1.pdf



I pity people who argue for the sake of doing so... You could actually be spending your time doing something constructive... Further, every one of the genocides we sited via Wikipedia articles is legit... Many of which took place during our life times... 

You're jsut being an ass now. Go sit down somewhere.

How are we the crazy ones when you're the only person here that hasn't heard about it?

Let's think about this... 

You've never heard of a genocide committed by black people... Hmm... Okay... Well let's pick a continent who's people are predominantly black... What comes to mind IMMEDIATELY? Africa... So you Google just to see if maybe there have been some genocides... Oh wow! There have! And lo n behold, black people were responsible! 

Why is that so hard? I don't like to call ppl stupid but you're not displaying behavior or a thought process that would suggest otherwise...


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 5, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I pity people who argue for the sake of doing so... You could actually be spending your time doing something constructive... Further, every one of the genocides we sited via Wikipedia articles is legit... Many of which too place during our life times...
> 
> You're jsut being an ass now. Go sit down somewhere.



I am actually recordign music now and checking the forum for replies to this thread.

Sure, the genocide did take place. How about you read about the background and the explanations given? That's why I posted that link to the book extract, where some stuff is mentioned that has been ignored or overlooked on purpose by the Wikipedia editors.

I hope you aren't older than 20. You certainly don't come off as mature with your childish insults and the smiley at the end of every post. If you aren't capable of contributing to this thread in a civilized and polite way, feel free to go to the pub. That's the only place I can think of where people of your sort get some respect.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

I feel like you're moving the point because your first one was shot down...

Now we need extra details? You asked for a genocide committed by black people. That's all you said. Now you're recording music and too busy to be bothered with keeping consistent in your argument... Right... Have fun with that.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 5, 2012)

By the way, thanks for the neg rep and yet another insult. Grow up. Or don't reproduce.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

The irony... 



> If someone tells you to grow up, or refrain from reproducing, you think of that as an "insult"? You truly are an idiot.





> I hope you aren't older than 20. You certainly don't come off as mature with your childish insults and the smiley at the end of every post. If you aren't capable of contributing to this thread in a civilized and polite way, feel free to go to the pub. That's the only place I can think of where people of your sort get some respect.





> Grow up. Or don't reproduce.



Now... Either you've got a case of Romnesia... OR... 



You don't know what irony means...


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## Thyber (Nov 5, 2012)

I used to have this solution to world famine and stuff, but it was told to be too racist...

irrigate the whole of Africa => make it farmland.



Racism is just a way to express fear over their personal well-being. People want to express their "superior" feelings in that way.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Nov 5, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Aren't Africans killing each other in pretty large numbers in some countries? You don't have to kill another race for it to be bad...



About that, in central Africa, there has been a lot of "ethnic" tension between these two tribes, I believe the Hutu & Tutsi, which lead to the Rowandan genocide. The way it started, actually the distinction between these two groups of people, was made by the Belgian conquerors who distinguished them based on their height and how tall their noses were, fuckin' seriously 
Both tribes share the same color and heritage, but with the right amount of ignorance they believed some were superior then the others. 

IMHO, I think racism is part of human nature, we fear what we don't know. So it's a bi-product of ignorance or any of its other affiliates, e.g. religion, gang cultures...etc.

*EDIT:* Didn't read the whole thread, so I see that the Rowandan genocide has been already mentioned. But that's not the only example, there are ethnic tensions wherever you have more than one human "tribe" or culture sharing the same land. It's there in Australia, the Middle East, or in Malaysia. Racism is not a monopoly of one certain race or culture.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 5, 2012)

^ I hope you don't think I didn't read the article I posted... 

But yes I agree...


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Nov 5, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ I hope you don't think I didn't read the article I posted...
> 
> But yes I agree...



I wasn't paying attention really, actually I just remembered the parts about the nose length from a report I heard on NPR a while ago, and Googled the rest


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

because there are still egos and different races.

Toss in some good old fashioned closed-mindedness and stubbornness, blend.

There's the answer to your question.


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## Onegunsolution (Nov 5, 2012)

Why cant we all just be gray blobs of the same hue?


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## The Reverend (Nov 5, 2012)

But seriously though, the answer to the original question has been here all along.

Primate politics. We're hardwired to separate ourselves into 'us' and 'them'. The distinctions change, but they will always be there, until we die out as a race, or until we override our vestigial behaviors with chips to the mo'fuckin' brain. Whether it be religion, race, sexual preference, gender, intelligence, physical ability, wealth, artistic ability, fashion choice, hair color, or whether or not we need to use Viagra, we will find something to vehemently hate others for. 

I personally have a vendetta against people who do well on their SATs and enjoy Counting Crows, and I will raise up my children to believe the same.


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## m3l-mrq3z (Nov 6, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> But seriously though, the answer to the original question has been here all along.
> 
> Primate politics. *We're hardwired to separate ourselves into 'us' and 'them'.* The distinctions change, but they will always be there, until we die out as a race, or until we override our vestigial behaviors with chips to the mo'fuckin' brain. Whether it be religion, race, sexual preference, gender, intelligence, physical ability, wealth, artistic ability, fashion choice, hair color, or whether or not we need to use Viagra, we will find something to vehemently hate others for.
> 
> I personally have a vendetta against people who do well on their SATs and enjoy Counting Crows, and I will raise up my children to believe the same.



True. We are supposed to classify. The human being is like an amateur scientist, creating categories for everything and everyone. Racism isn't about classifying, so whenever I read about scientists proving that racism is even found among babies because they notice the physical differences between blacks and whites I have to cringe. Racism begins when people think "black-->stupid and white-->good".


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## The Reverend (Nov 6, 2012)

m3l-mrq3z said:


> True. We are supposed to classify. The human being is like an amateur scientist, creating categories for everything and everyone. Racism isn't about classifying, so whenever I read about scientists proving that racism is even found among babies because they notice the physical differences between blacks and whites I have to cringe. Racism begins when people think "black-->stupid and white-->good".



Well, I left it up to the reader to extrapolate it from my post, but inclusionary/exclusionary behavior is for the good of the group one belongs to, in spite of/to the detriment of the other. So given that context, it is easy to see how these artificial constructions can be given a negative connotation. It's an instinct that guaranteed our survival, as it's still present, but it's one that manifests itself in a generally agreed upon negative way, much like cheating. 

There is no magical answer, at least to the basic mechanisms that enable and foster racism. We know the means by which logic is circumvented, now all that has to be done is to convince each successive generation that all people are basically decent, and worth respecting. Except people who like Counting Crows.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 6, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Except people who like Counting Crows.



Word on the street is that people who listen to the Counting Crows are extra super smart.


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## The Reverend (Nov 6, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Word on the street is that people who listen to the Counting Crows are extra super smart.



Yeah, I heard they proved that, too.


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## groph (Nov 17, 2012)

This is a lot of conjecture.

I'm going to say racism still exists because of white people not wanting to acknowledge the fact that social privilege exists. 

There seems to be a tendency (this is anecdotal when I say it but surely there is evidence elsewhere, much of what I say is informed by online conversations and some literature about race relations) amongst young white people to assume Western society HAS achieved a liberal utopia where opportunities are equal amongst everybody and that everybody is equal.

In the North American political ideal, libertarianism seems to be the "best possible situation" where capitalism is unregulated and the accumulation of personal wealth is possible because there is no interference from the state and special interest groups. Since success or failure is up to the individual, all success and failure can be attributed to the individual. While libertarianism is probably the closest to my own idea of utopia it must also be recognized that it is a vision of utopia. Implausible just as pure classless communism. It's criticised as a racist system because it ignores social privilege, in short it's too simplistic and as a theory it doesn't explain enough about society. 

This classical liberal perspective (this is different from pure libertarianism) is engrained in a lot of people around here so there is a tendency to dismiss privilege.

If you're white and you deny privilege, consider a few things.

- You may know some black people (or anyone who isnt white) as having a great standard of living. This is not true of all of such people.
- "Blacks have criminal tendencies, it's just true." No it's not, it's just racist. Consider access to resources before you run your mouth too much. Sometimes you have to commit crime because there's no other way. Is this an excuse? No, property damage, theft etc. is wrong and it can be argued well that it is, but when you put an already hated population into an area with no opportunities for employment, what do you expect will happen? Hindsight reasoning here, so go ahead and debate this point. 

Really, things arent the same for all people and skin colour is an immediate signifier of first or second class citizenship. I'm initially afraid of large black men thanks to my peers and the media, and thanks to my own inability to take into account a universal humanity. Also, where I live is mostly white. 

Most of the culture around here is white oriented so whenever somebody sees something that is touted as Africcentric, it's criticized right away as inequality, even as racism itself. This ignores history. When were white people enslaved in America? When were white people segregated to their detriment in America? Never? Right. Are channels like BET and educational programs that "force" "African values" into the curriculum the way to solve racism? Maybe not but they're better than white-centric society to populations who have been deemed as second class.

The kernel of the problem as far as privileged persons are concerned, and the same is true of sexism, is that attempts for equality sound like inequality, and that such privileged people get defensive very easily. When feminists are criticized as "hating men" that is defensiveness. Yes, some feminists did and do hate men. Please take a minute to read a few books and you'll see otherwise. Same thing goes for racism. Black activists don't hate white people, they hate white privilege. Having privilege doesn't make you a bad person, you have no say in whether or not you're privileged because you're born into it. It's something to be aware of and if you want to advocate for anti-racism you MUST be aware of it and act otherwise. That means acknowledging inconvenient truths and calling people out. It's uncomfortable because it entails being made uncomfortable about a lot of things and having people not like you because you're made out as somebody who attacks others. Even that is a nice cushy reality because there exist other people who can't live their lives as easily as you can. Your skin colour isnt brought into question ever.


EDIT: Posted while half drunk. May contain logical fallacies.


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## Bevo (Nov 18, 2012)

^ well said drunk or not!

Living in a few Canadian cities it was interesting to see the response to a coloured guy running..me.

In Vancouver I have seen people cross the street when they seen me coming, running or walking. I am not even black more chocolate but have a shaved head.
In Calgary I had people stop and hold there husbands as I ran by.
In Saskatoon I walked into a Tim Hortons that was loud and had immediate silence, when I sat down to eat the people beside me moved to the other side of the busy restaurant.
Toronto I am considered white and no one looks twice at me.
In the East coast all the girls think I am a bad boy and the guys want to kick my ass LOL!!
Near Hudson Bay a girl at a gas stop said, are you not cold in our weather when it was summer..I still don't get that one.

Racism is alive and doing well and truthfully I don't think it will ever go away. Society regions and income all dictate the level of the racism.

Another thing to consider which I don't know has been mentioned is the new racism against white people, I have started to see it more and more and I think it will become an issue soon.
If you think about it there is now more more non white people in our countries than say 20 years ago. The mixing of races also are starting to become more common place and if it continues white may be the minority.

Crazy eh!


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 18, 2012)

^^Yeah, that was were it all fell down... I was with you there for a minute...


> "... when I sat down to *eat the people beside me*..."




/jk 

I dropped by earlier to attack the concept of socially indoctrinated group identity before. I'll hit the subject up one more time then admit defeat.

For a group of musicians such as this forum to not see the abject fallacy of arbitrary and unelected *groups* is very strange. After all, we as human beings have been in more groups than most, some changing weekly.

Traditional racial nomenclature is so vague and nospecific it really is obselete. The reality is, each person is a country of one, a unique individual...

...Regardless of the tired cliche; race, creed and colour *yawn*. Out of the three classic signifiers of prejudice a person can only influence the third, religion, and only by practice, not affecting the adherences of their ancestors.

Society has created rituals to celebrate competition and national segregation. Events such as the Olympics typify this cultural indoctrination.


_Celebrating cultural diversity through competition or reinforcing difference through tribulation and hardship?_
*Also, in-joke. Can you spot the person that shouldn't be there???*

As with anything, the real answer comes from economics. Recently, in the UK, there have been attempts by the government to adjust corporation tax in order to preserve current levels of foreign investment, whilst increasing tax revenues. They are attempting to find an amicable solution with companies that bank off shore to avoid taxes. This is a global phenomenon. 
Obama's reaction to Romney's attempt at revealing his retirement fund, banked in the Cayman islands, gave me cause to laugh, during the Presidential debates.



Looking at sources of manufacturing globally, many will notice that common place goods are made in countries which have been prevented from making progress, on a national level.
In the developed world most people are free to migrate for better life or career opportunities. In the countries with the largest export markets, these opportunities for migration are often limited.







Essentially, patriotism and national pride are designed to ensure that skills, vigour and capital does not leave the country.
*That's it.*






That's all it is. Sorry. 

If you take the view that anyone who pays tithes is a slave, you can see it's in a nations interests to promote sedentary behaviour in it's populace. It's globally endemic. They want you and your children's children to pay taxes.

So, my theory without too much elaboration is; racism is a byproduct of psychopathic economic practice.

Sorry, it sucks. 

_*On* another note_, recently I watched George Lucas' movie _Red Tails_. Looking up the historical references again for a refresher proved to be very interesting, although the film had its problems but was entertaining.

_If your not familiar with the history, the film tells a dramatised version of events, following the war experience of the first, *"experimental"*, African-American fighter pilots of the Tuskegee air training college.
Due to the culture of the day, complete segregation, African-American air passengers required pilots of the same ethnicity to travel. Some of these men wished to fight and so began the first all African-American pursuit squadron based in Tuskegee, Alabama, in 1941..._

http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment


Plenty of antique bigotry to be dredged up, right there, although it serves my opinion well to point out that the pilots were the product of intense selection, training and scrutiny, truly the best of the best, unlike many nations young men who were sent into aerial combat hastily and poorly prepared by their services due to heavy losses, as was the case with many nations.

I also recently watched _The Young Lions_ (1948), which serves as a study into the problems facing people during world war II, made not long after the war ended. Its study into the Wermarcht's psychological indoctrination of its men made me consider some things differently. For such a long film to hammer home this relentless concept throughout it's entire depiction of the German armed forces, from apparent global domination to it's very own capital razed to the ground by relentless aerial bombardment, offers the viewer a unique experience.
Consider the idea:
*Follow orders, at all costs, without question, or you will be shot*.
*Faux-German accent improves ze experience* 

_Would you give up your humanity and self-determination to continue living, striving for the goals of another?
For good men to do terrible things, can this be the only axiom?_


Both films are hanging around the internet, it should be easy enough to find a free stream from searching.

*Heavy shit for a heavy thread!*


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## Overtone (Nov 19, 2012)

The world is a beautiful place.
The world we've built is a horrible place.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 19, 2012)

^
We who? 

My campaign against vague generalisations has completely and utterly failed... Noooooo!!!!

Anyway, just dropped by to put this in here. I've been watching jazz documentaries lately, this one really surprised me. No summary from me this time, just sit though 10 minutes and see what happens.



Displaced people seem to have a knack for great music.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 19, 2012)

I'm glad you saw that post, Konfyouzd. Thinking about something you wrote in another thread made me think of Miles and check out his documentaries, it's now led me off into jazz land, which seems to be a tide of cultural history and reference.

Obviously, the music could benefit from some more blast beats and a few other minor tweaks, but the culture thing has really got me hooked. 

*Thanks for jogging my mind's needle onto a different groove!*


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 19, 2012)

> A woman will NEVER be as important as the music. She may think she will be, but a man who truly loves the music, that's where he's gonna be.



Well that explains my priorities... 

Having a hard time watching it at work since I left my headphones and the volume seems to change rather frequently, but I'm definitely putting this on again when I get home... Maybe crack a beer and soak it in... The video, not the beer... Well both... 

/OT


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Nov 25, 2012)

^Wasn't that Miles' first wife? Maybe I'm wrong. 
Anyway, I picked up on that, too. In my relationships, I've always felt that the women who performed, played an instrument, sang or danced to a high standard understood me the most. Never clicked the same way with _"Civilians"_.

I have an unwritten rule never to date actresses; _Needy extroverts, always in search of drama._


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## SirMyghin (Nov 25, 2012)

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> Anyway, I picked up on that, too. In my relationships, I've always felt that the women who performed, played an instrument, sang or danced to a high standard understood me the most. Never clicked the same way with _"Civilians"_.



Just figured I'd point out there is a disgusting flavour of irony to referring to non-players as 'civilians'. The reason being there is nothing more civilian than the 'artist'.

Just wanted to point that out, as it is actually a pretty grotesque term to throw around in such a case.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 25, 2012)

Because us white folk are just bitter that no matter how hard we try we'll never, _ever_ be as cool as Samuel L. Jackson.


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## The Reverend (Nov 25, 2012)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Because us white folk are just bitter that no matter how hard we try we'll never, _ever_ be as cool as Samuel L. Jackson.



Hey, I'll never measure up to him either, and I'm not white.

Maybe that's how we end racism. All races can stand together and say, "SLJ is cooler than we'll ever be collectively."


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## JoshDjent (Nov 26, 2012)

Free will. You might want to get used to it.


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## Nonservium (Nov 26, 2012)

I never really paid much attention to how much race plays into everything growing up. I'm a double shot of white, irish on one side, scottish on the other, drunk all the way around. I had more black and hispanic friends growing up than anything. I didn't get a whole lot of shit from them for being white but it happened from time to time. It wasn't untill I grew up and married a non-white that I really saw how much people seem to fixate on it.

I don't run into much of it here in Dallas but back home in West Texas we get looked at funny when we go out and shop by the older generations. From my wife's perspective, growing up not white, blonde and blue eyed (like me) made things harder socially out there. She said she always was made to feel like a lesser person by most white people. Her grandmother is an outright bigot (and quite a cunt on top of that) but seems to over look the fact that her grandkids are of mixed race. I can't tell you how many times I've seen her go on and on about blacks and mexicans gettin' all the welfare (her words).

From what I've had to deal with it seems to me that it is somewhat more of an issue the more rural you go location wise. It also seems like there is a 20 year cultural progression gap between the more populated, urban areas and the rural sticks. It still exists because in these out of the way places being stuck in time and ignorance is the way of life. It's enforced through social pressure and upbringing. I've been called a race traitor by white folks out there and a honkey by black folk out there. I've not had a single instance of either since I moved here 10 years ago.

Most of those people didn't get the memo that light bouncing off flesh in different ways is to blame for the color difference. 

Make no mistake, its not just white people who are racist, it happens on every side as it's a very hardwired, primal instinct to fear "the other" as some of you have pointed out. Every culture, religion, and social circle is reflective of the fact that we are more comfortable as a whole with divisions. This, to me, is a sign we are in the adolescent throws of puberty as a species. We are angst ridden, divisive, and petty. Until we figure out, en masse, that we need less division and reasons to shun one another we aren't going to fix this in any meaningful way.

We could all just fuck each other until we're all the same shade of brown but we'd find another reason to hate one another such as religion or some other man made bullshit. It's time for humans to grow up, that much is clear.


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## groph (Nov 29, 2012)

JoshDjent said:


> Free will. You might want to get used to it.



Care to elaborate a bit?


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## flint757 (Nov 29, 2012)

I think his point is as long as we have the will to make our own decisions somebody out there will choose to be a racist. Not insightful, but not like it didn't make sense.


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## Chalupacabra (Nov 30, 2012)

Racism exists because capitalism exists.

Racism is not by any means an exclusively American problem, but what I am about to write is a (super quick) brief on racism in the 13 colonies that would be become the United States and it's continuing legacy through the new Jim Crow.

In the early days of the American colonies, poor whites and poor blacks worked side by side for similar wages, much of the time as sharecroppers. Some others yet, worked as indentured servants. Indentured servants are people that agree to work for a member of the capitalist class within a new country in exchange for the cost of their passage to the new world. Once in the country, the capitalist class (rich land-owners) treated these indentured servants like something less than human. The conditions faced by the working classes of all races and those faced by the indentured servants of all races were deplorable. 

By 1675, the working class whites and blacks had had enough of the abuses perpetrated by the capitalist class, and Bacon's rebellion would take place. Poor whites, poor blacks, sharecroppers and laborers and indentured servants rose up violently and in total solidarity with one another.

The capitalists were extremely frightened by this, so they did what they continue to do today in "Divide and Conquer". A vast media blitz (for the time) took place with the intention of dehumanizing blacks and native americans. Granted, small scale slavery existed in this time, these new tactics created what would be become the disgusting epidemic known as the institution of large-scale slavery of blacks. Now the poor whites must keep up the facade that they are somehow genetically superior to the poor blacks or face the same abuse as poor blacks. This is still true today.

I am tired, we just had a baby, but it continues today through the racist drug war and capitalism is still the reason. 

Check out this lecture on "The New Jim Crow"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZaQFYQsphQ


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