# Amps with built-in attenuators or variable output wattage



## playstopause (Dec 2, 2006)

Do any of you guys know combos / or head + cab that has built-in attenuators or switchable output wattage?

I know about the "Hot Plate" and other such devices. I'm more looking for something that's built-in.

So far, i know there's :

- Vox AD 100 VTH + other Vox combos
- Orange Thunderverb
- Peavey valveking series + Transtube series
- Epiphone So-Cal (25w-50w choice output)
- Some old Marshall with a "breaker" or something like that (?)

Thanks for any information!


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## iumentum (Dec 2, 2006)

What are you trying to achieve? Most amps that has built-in attenuators or swithable output wattages sound way different in the different modes. You might actually like the sound of the volume turned down better. But that won't give you power tube saturation if that is what you are looking for. I'm not a big fan of that myself, not for my style of playing.

In my CAA OD100 I just put a patch cord from send to return in the effects loop and use the effects loop level control as a master volume. Works great on that amp.

Keep in mind that if your amp has 4 power tubes you can pull two of the tubes to divide the output wattage in half. Either the two outmost ones or the two inner ones. You have to use another speaker output too, but I can't remember if it should be higher or lower ohm...


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## playstopause (Dec 2, 2006)

> In my CAA OD100



I don't have a clue about what that thing is with the abreviation.

As far as what i'm trying to achieve, 
let's say i want a "big, as saturated as possible-tube feel sound + cab spread feel" at bedroom level + having the possibility to crank it up when i feel like it (or when i'm alone at home).

I need this kind of device because even a 100w head with removed tubes is still gonna sound too loud for me @50w. The coolest example for me is the Vox, on wich you can play with the output wattage in between 1w and 100w and it's still gonna sound the same. 

But to do what you do with the effects loop might be the thing.
It's the 1st time i hear of such a set-up.
Isn't there is lower wattage tubes too? (tube newbie alert!  )


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## iumentum (Dec 2, 2006)

playstopause said:


> As far as what i'm trying to achieve,
> let's say i want a "big, as saturated as possible-tube feel sound + cab spread feel" at bedroom level + having the possibility to crank it up when i feel like it (or when i'm alone at home).



My opinion is that such a thing is damn near impossible at bedroom level... What you describe is to me having a great 100watt head with a 4x12 at blasting volumes. I have learnt to live with the fact that I can't get this sound at home. I use Guitar Rig 2 for practice and I get some damn good tones out of it, but it is nothing compared to the full rig.

CAA OD100 = Custom Audio Amplifiers OD100 http://www.suhrguitars.com/OD100.aspx


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## Drew (Dec 2, 2006)

playstopause said:


> As far as what i'm trying to achieve,
> let's say i want a "big, as saturated as possible-tube feel sound + cab spread feel" at bedroom level + having the possibility to crank it up when i feel like it (or when i'm alone at home).



That's an awfully tall order.

Off the top of my head, MEsa's Mark-IV has semi-variable wattage - in pentode mode at full power, it's around 85 watts, I think, but switch it to triode and tweed and you can drop it to about 35. Also, the "Bold/Spongy" switch on the Rectos slightly drops output as well,nothing major but they describe it as a "variac-like" effect. And I think the Bogner Exstacy can be cut down to the equivalent of about 10 watts. The Nomad-100 has switchable output fromm 100 to 60, and the Mashall TSL-100 has a "Variable Power Reduction" switch that simulates an output drop to 25 watts, and does so fairly well (though it's still bloody loud). 

That's sort of the thing though - even a 25 watt tube head is loud. Youcan use a TSL in bedroom environments, but it won't sound "cranked up" until it, well, is. 

Part of why I sold my TSL for the Nomad, asidefrom the fact I just love the smooth Mesa lead sound, was that it sounded a lot more "saturated" and round at low volumes than the TSL. That's the route I'd go - findig a tube amp that sounds great at low volumes and doesn't NEED to be cranked.


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## Stitch (Dec 2, 2006)

Drew; are you just the Mesa/Boogie expert round here? Why aren't you endorsed?


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## Drew (Dec 2, 2006)

stitch216 said:


> Drew; are you just the Mesa/Boogie expert round here? Why aren't you endorsed?



No album. 





(I also suspect I don't gig enough for 'em )


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## playstopause (Dec 2, 2006)

Drew said:


> That's an awfully tall order.
> 
> (...)
> 
> That's the route I'd go - findig a tube amp that sounds great at low volumes and doesn't NEED to be cranked.



I know. 
I always think that they're going to invent what i need pretty soon. So i just keep waiting... and waiting ... and ...

Looks like the VOX is still the best option in this regard, with his (close to) real tube feel and its output variable wattage (1w -100w).
...

Regarding tube amps that sounds good or saturated at low volume levels, do you have any suggestions (beside the Nomad )?
Thanks!


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## LordOVchaoS (Dec 2, 2006)

Drew said:


> No album.




 fix that!  

Hmmm... I'm the guitarist on a total of 6 albums... I need a Mesa endorsement!!!  

Don't I wish. I'd have to gig WAAAAAY more than they'd want.


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## Drew (Dec 3, 2006)

playstopause said:


> Regarding tube amps that sounds good or saturated at low volume levels, do you have any suggestions (beside the Nomad )?
> Thanks!



Hey, I'd sell my soul for a three channel high gain tube head with a great heavy crunch channel and a killer smooth lead channel, with a 10-watt output section. 

They don't sound "saturated" at low levels, exactly, but if you're looking for a smoother lead tone rather than something crunchy, basically anything from Mesa that ISN'T a Rectifier sounds pretty smooth and singing at lower volumes. Check out the Mark-series, the Lonestar (of note, the Lone Star Special, which I believe is in the 30-watt range but has various channel-selectable half-power and pentode/triode and whatnot stuff going on, so you can cut it down to, at most, 5 watts while still having a higher-wattage clean channel for more headroom. If I could afford a second amp for heavier rhythm stuff, I'd totally sell the Nomad for one of these - one of the best clean tones I've ever heard for slightly gritty stuff, and an awesome lead tone. It just doesn't do metal half as well as the Nomad), and even the F-series. 

Aside from Mesa (I'm wicked biased. )... Fender's stuff is actually worth a look too, if you're not looking for heavy crunch - especially their lower wattage stuff. I was SERIOUSLY impressed with a stock RG-520 running into their (15 watt) Blues, Jr. It'll do very Santana/Eric Johnson/Trey Anastasio/Alan Holdsworth sort of stuff, as well as the usual suspects (Clapton, SRV if you push it a bit, any number of Chicago guys), but if you want heavier crunch you;ll need a pedal (incidentally, I was impressed by how well a Metal Zone drove one of these things when I tried it years ago back in college - it's a surprisingly deep-sounding amp, so if you set the thing for a slight upper mid boost and don't go absurd with the gain, bass, or treble, it sounds surprisingly good).

Hmm. What kind of a tone ARE you looking for?


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## playstopause (Dec 3, 2006)

The 100$ question!  That's something i have a hard time describing, really. I need to know more than i actually know about amps. Far from being an expert right now.

I know it's essential to be able to describe what tone you want in general while looking for an amp... I guess i'll now when i'll find it after trying 100 amps. I'm too "green" in that specific field. But hey, i've been reading a lot of what you more expericenced guys are sayin' over here, so i get to learn a lot, quickly.

Let's say i'm after a very well-defined, warm heavy crunch.
I'll use a cliche : Sevendust's "Wafle".

I'm more of a rhythm than a lead guy. I'll love making soft lead from time to time but not much more than that.

I really like what these guys sound like too :

http://www.myspace.com/threatsignal

Especially "Counter balance".


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## metalfiend666 (Dec 4, 2006)

You want a head and a separate Hot Plate or a head like the Thunderverb with a true attenuator built in. Any valve amp with an output over 10W is going to be very loud when it's cranked. You mentioned changing tubes, and you can get converters to use EL84's in place of 6L6's or EL34's, but they change the sound of the amp as well.

Another option is a tube preamp and a small tube poweramp like the Marshall 20/20 or Mesa 20/20.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 4, 2006)

That sounds kinda like a 5150. On their board (which I just checked) the guitar player says he uses Peavey. Almost certainly a 5150 or some near derivative. He says the other guy uses a Bogner. On anotehr post they said Krank, but... well, those tend to sound pretty fizzy, unless you are Andy Sneap. 

I'd say you'd be good to go with a Peavey 5150, Ultra Plus, somethjing like that. Or, an ENGL. They have a tone sorta like that. Warm, but very defined and heavy.

My vote, if you want a tube amp, is probably ENGL. Maybe a Mesa Triaxis, but this depends on your cash.

BTW... that Threat Signal fucking kicks ASS!!!


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## Jeff (Dec 4, 2006)

playstopause said:


> Do any of you guys know combos / or head + cab that has built-in attenuators or switchable output wattage?
> 
> I know about the "Hot Plate" and other such devices. I'm more looking for something that's built-in.
> 
> ...



The ValveKing doesn't have variable wattage. I wish it did.


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## playstopause (Dec 4, 2006)

Jeff said:


> The ValveKing doesn't have variable wattage. I wish it did.



I know, but doesn't the rear texture button change the volume at wich the sound is outputted?



> I'd say you'd be good to go with a Peavey 5150, Ultra Plus, somethjing like that. Or, an ENGL. They have a tone sorta like that. Warm, but very defined and heavy.
> 
> My vote, if you want a tube amp, is probably ENGL. Maybe a Mesa Triaxis, but this depends on your cash.



Look @ the first post. I know these are THE amps out there. But they're way out of my ballpark. Thanks anyway


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## noodles (Dec 4, 2006)

Drew said:


> Off the top of my head, Mesa's Mark-IV has semi-variable wattage - in pentode mode at full power, it's around 85 watts, I think, but switch it to triode and tweed and you can drop it to about 35.



You're thinking of the Mark III, which is a combination of EL-34 and 6L6 power tubes. The power drop completely alters the tone, since the half power drop completely cuts the 6L6's out of the circuit, and the second drop is the switches the EL-34s from pentode to triode mode (using only half of the EL-34).


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## Stitch (Dec 4, 2006)

Drew said:


> Aside from Mesa (I'm wicked biased. )...


Not half...






Drew said:


> Fender's stuff is actually worth a look too, if you're not looking for heavy crunch - especially their lower wattage stuff. I was SERIOUSLY impressed with a stock RG-520 running into their (15 watt) Blues, Jr. It'll do very Santana/Eric Johnson/Trey Anastasio



For a second, i thought you were talking about Trey Azgaroth from Morbid Angel, then sanity returned. 
Forgive the silly size changes. I havent got the hang of it yet.


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## Drew (Dec 4, 2006)

noodles said:


> You're thinking of the Mark III, which is a combination of EL-34 and 6L6 power tubes. The power drop completely alters the tone, since the half power drop completely cuts the 6L6's out of the circuit, and the second drop is the switches the EL-34s from pentode to triode mode (using only half of the EL-34).



Nah, the IV does this too:



Mesaboogie.com said:


> Power Amp Voicing switches tune the style and feel of your output stage. Select Triode for resilient vintage warmth or Pentode for punchy forward power. Choose Class A for two-tube operation, where clip begins around 15 watts, or Simul-Class for 85 watts of blended magic.



And the Full Power/Tweed Power three-way power switch drops the internal wattage a bit too - they don't really get into what sort of exact effect this has on output wattage in the manual (I just checked) but they DO say ti further lowers output power. 

You know, this thing can push 15 watts in Class A/triode... I really DO need one. 

EDIT - the manual rates it at 30 watts in Triode/Class A, 85w in Pentode/SimulClass, and that under full saturation those figures more or less double. Hmm. The plot thickens...


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## hirah (Dec 4, 2006)

i have a mesa poweramp that is 85 watts full power, and 15 tweed/class a. it changes the sound a little, but not much. and it is still loud as hell.
the other amps that have a built in attenuator are the metaltronix head and one of the older laneys. there used to be an ad with paul gilbert that read something like it uses up tubes faster but who cares.


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## JonnySe7en (Dec 4, 2006)

Drew said:


> EDIT - the manual rates it at 30 watts in Triode/Class A, 85w in Pentode/SimulClass, and that under full saturation those figures more or less double. Hmm. The plot thickens...



The Mark IV incredibly has more levels of power:

Class A:

Triode 30W 
Pentode 50W ​
Simulclass:
Triode 75W
Pentode 85W​
In conjuction with the Tweed/Full Power variac, even more! That's effectively 8 power levels  and the tone/loudness difference from the lowest > highest power is a HUGE. However, wattage is not a measure of loudness, that's measured in decibels.


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## metalfiend666 (Dec 5, 2006)

A rough rule of thumb is 10 times the power = 2 times the volume, ie an amp pushing out 100W is twice as loud as an amp pushing 10W. Obviously there's not such thing as a lossless circuit and things like cab and speaker choice have an effect, so it's only a rough rule.


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## playstopause (Dec 5, 2006)

hirah said:


> i have a mesa poweramp that is 85 watts full power, and 15 tweed/class a. it changes the sound a little, but not much. and it is still loud as hell.
> the other amps that have a built in attenuator are the metaltronix head and one of the older laneys. there used to be an ad with paul gilbert that read something like it uses up tubes faster but who cares.



I don't think they make them (Metaltronix) anymore.
But they sure have funny vintage ads on their web page.

Would you recall what model # or name the Laney one is?



metalfiend666 said:


> Another option is a tube preamp and a small tube poweramp like the Marshall 20/20 or Mesa 20/20.



How does that sound @ low volume?


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## playstopause (Dec 8, 2006)

Metalfiend? / Hirah?


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## noodles (Dec 9, 2006)

JonnySe7en said:


> The Mark IV incredibly has more levels of power:
> 
> Class A:
> 
> ...



This line of development directly lead to the power switching options in the Road King. Progressive linkage (the ability to mix and match disparate power tubes) was the finally piece in the puzzle, really.


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## hirah (Dec 9, 2006)

i don't remember the model of the laney.
a big part of the attenuators is that i think you need the speakers to work more to get "that" sound. so by using the master, you get more saturation, but not the total cranked guitar sound. if that makes any sense.


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## Jerich (Dec 9, 2006)

I for one cannot wait to try out the ORANGE Thunderverb at NAMM 2007 this is a hit list for me..and i hope to bring one home with me....but THD Plex and Uni Valve both have a ATTN: built in...I have a 8 ohmn THD Hotplate "purple one" that works great at lowering the volume of my Tri amp & Brunetti and makes the tone more saturated for lower volumes...I tried the Hotplate with the Mesa Road King and it sucked the life out of it...i think the road king is one of those amps that just needs to be left alone....


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

They're seriously naming an amp 'Thinderverb'?  What does that mean? Does it have something to do with Thiele cabinets or something like that?


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## Jerich (Dec 9, 2006)

sorry THUNDERVERB!!!


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

Thunderverb! Oh, ok! 

That makes a hell of a lot more sense, doesn't it? I thought Orange was seriously off their rocker or something.


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## playstopause (Dec 9, 2006)

Jerich said:


> I for one cannot wait to try out the ORANGE Thunderverb at NAMM 2007 this is a hit list for me..and i hope to bring one home with me....but THD Plex and Uni Valve both have a ATTN: built in.



That Thunderverb really seems to be the shit. 200 watts of megalomania.
Too bad it's like 1 849 989$.
I want that built-in attenuator.

Thanks for the THD Plex + Uni valve info!


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