# Something has to be done with live metal sound



## Dores (Jun 8, 2012)

Ask yourself: When was the last time you went to a metal show that actually had great sound? Where you could hear both guitars clearly, all the solos, vocals and feel the punch of the bass drum and bass guitar? I don't really know if I'm just plain unlucky, but this is true for about 1/50 of metal shows I go to.

I always have high hopes when seeing new local bands or other bigger bands that I haven't heard before live, but just about every time they start playing, the mix is _all _over the place. Guitars, or at least one of the guitars always get lost, the vocals are often overpowering and I end up hearing a bunch of mud with drums in it. And that's just horribly disappointing, every single time.

Why can't metal sound good live all the time?

People always tell me to stop putting stuff in my ears to dampen the volume. Well, ringing ears and damaged hearing isn't really for me, and all the shows I've been to in a medium/small venue are comparable to the noise of a fighter jet taking off anyways. I've tried with regular ear plugs, which totally destroy the sound, and "musician's" ear plugs which do just the same, and toilet paper which actually works like a charm. But not when the mix sucks.

I'm thinking that what's ruining the day for the sound guys are the amps we constantly push to 11 to get our "tones", and the drums which are way too loud for controlled stage volumes. Then everything has to be miced and turned up to 12, pushing the PA to it's limits and just making everything incredibly loud.

And now for the can of worms: Imagine the sound if the drummer played on an electric kit, guitars and bass through Axe FX's or similar, and the volume was low enough so that nobody had to wear hearing protection? Now that would be great! Wouldn't it?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 8, 2012)

Literally every band I've seen using an AFX live has sounded great, AAL especially. Even quite a few local bands sound good live.

And IMO that chest thumping kick, palm mute, etc..is what makes live shows awesome, just wear earplugs and you can easily make out what people are playing.


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## guy in latvia (Jun 8, 2012)

this is why i usually dont go to club shows but go to festivals, they have people who are experts in making live metal sound good, so it usually does


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 8, 2012)

Axe Fx sounds fucking awesome live. Hate seeing bands that use them live, makes me GAS hard for things I can't afford.


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## Winspear (Jun 8, 2012)

Meshuggah - awesome. 
Dream Theater is great but anything is gonna sound like shit in an arena really..Certainly perfect on their half though.
Periphery and AALs sound seemed nothing on Meshuggah. Not as clear or fat as the record, where as Meshuggah was just as clear and fatter. Their records sound weak to me now haha

But yep..something needs to be done.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 8, 2012)

DT sounded like shit when I saw them in 08


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## Winspear (Jun 8, 2012)

To be fair they are the only band I've seen in a venue that size (apart from support acts who did not sound as good). To me it sounded like it was probably perfect aside from being swamped with reverb. I don't really think progressive music is suited to venues like that.


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## TheKindred (Jun 8, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> And IMO that chest thumping kick, palm mute, etc..is what makes live shows awesome, just wear earplugs and you can easily make out what people are playing.



I go to about 2 shows per week (local talent and big name tours; multiple venues) and would only say maybe 1 or 2 in 10 really have "bad" sound. I have a couple sets of Hearos and they seriously make all the difference in the world. They filter out all the shrill and garbage frequencies and leave that nice balanced 'soundboard' mix. 

In my experience anyway.


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## TheKindred (Jun 8, 2012)

Worst sound I can remember in recent history was Devil Driver. Absolute garbage - suuuuuper bass heavy to the point there literally was nothing else coming through. Really sucked.

I think they had their own (shitty) soundguy. Skeletonwitch came before them and totally owned it. Arch Enemy came immediately after and had great sound. This was at a venue known for good sound too. Everyone else was great, DevilDriver was shite.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Jun 8, 2012)

Part of the problem is dickhead soundguys. I played a show last summer where the sound guy didn't like us, so he fucked us over. No monitors, vocals way too loud, practically no bass, and my guitar was overpowering the other guitarist. The pop punk band that played last, though (Battle of the bands, that's why) had great sound. Us and the other metal band? Absolute shit.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 9, 2012)

TheKindred said:


> I go to about 2 shows per week (local talent and big name tours; multiple venues) and would only say maybe 1 or 2 in 10 really have "bad" sound. I have a couple sets of Hearos and they seriously make all the difference in the world. They filter out all the shrill and garbage frequencies and leave that nice balanced 'soundboard' mix.
> 
> In my experience anyway.



Yup, I have hearos too! Best 20-30 I ever spent


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## Gryphon (Jun 9, 2012)

Just wondering for those that said they are hearing Axe-FX's sounded good live, are they running direct or power amp and cabs?


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## TomParenteau (Jun 9, 2012)

When there are two or more distorted guitars, one tends to cover up the other one's lead solos. It bugs the hell out of me. The well-mixed, high-buck shows fix that problem pretty well.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 9, 2012)

Very little about a live band of a certain size sounding bad is the band itself, players or gear. I'd estimate and say that 80% of how well a band sounds live if is the venue (PA system, acoustics, layout, etc.) and venue staff (roadies, sound guy, etc.). You can take an amazing live band, with players who are super tight, have great gear that's perfectly dialed in, and aim to play with the perfect give and take mix, but if the house has shitty acoustics and the sound guy doesn't know his elbow from his ass, it won't mean a damn thing. 

The imaginary setup you're thinking of only works if the house and staff are perfect.


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## SirMyghin (Jun 9, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> DT sounded like shit when I saw them in 08



They sounded bad when I saw them open for Maiden, in an outdoor large venue, but excellent in Massey Hall, a smaller, most excellent venue, on their last tour.


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## Ben.Last (Jun 9, 2012)

As has been said, this has more to do with the venue than the band, and you're not going to see any change in the venue/s you're talking about unless they think it's going to make them more money (and it's not).


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 9, 2012)

SirMyghin said:


> They sounded bad when I saw them open for Maiden, in an outdoor large venue, but excellent in Massey Hall, a smaller, most excellent venue, on their last tour.



Yeah, when I saw them Opeth and Between the Buried and Me both sounded pretty good compared to them, I suspect it has to do with some of their over the top set ups...like who the fuck really needs 1324 amp heads?


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## Necris (Jun 9, 2012)

I have plenty of things I've noticed from going to live shows but these are some of the ones that apply directly to the sound. It should come as a complete surprise to absolutely noone that many of the issues with live metal sound could be fixed by doing a bit of work before the show to find good eq settings and then turning the fuck down.

1. Noone puts any real effort into getting a good live sound before the actual show under the incorrect assumption that the sound guy will do it for them.

2. Metal musicians have absolutely no understanding of context. By that I mean if they had a great sounding show at a large venue when everyone brought a full stack and turned their amp up to 10 they assume that the same will be true for the shoebox sized venue where the distance between themselves audience is literally less than 2 feet.

3. Any volume other than 0 or 10 is a a completely foreign concept that makes them uncomfortable, this also applies to distortion. You have no idea how many guitarists and bassists I have seen set the master volume on their amps to 10 but turn the channel volume to 3 to appease the sound guy. After two songs they then attempt to be sneaky and turn the channel volume up to ten as well and 90% of the time absolutely ruin their sound. After the show they generally go on to claim "it didn't sound heavy enough before" and that "anyone who turns down is a pussy", "if it's too loud you're too old" etc etc.

Bullshit like that is why I stopped going to shows altogether, if can't make out what you're playing because the drums eat your sound but I still have to wear earplugs and go home with ringing ears at the end of the night anyway I would rather stay home.


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## SamSam (Jun 9, 2012)

IMO Hearos are shit compared to a custom molded pair of proffesionally made personal ear plugs. I know they are expensive, but come on, it's for our hearing. Hell many mixes sound a hell of a lot clearer to me with them in!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 9, 2012)

Well no shit, but for 20 they work well. What you just said is like, "Honda's are shit, we should all buy lambos". When really either does the job, one is just way better.


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## Underworld (Jun 9, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Well no shit, but for 20 they work well. What you just said is like, "Honda's are shit, we should all buy lambos". When really either does the job, one is just way better.


 

I have both 20$ musician's plugs and professional ear-molded plugs, and I would NEVER dare bring my 200$ plugs to a metal gig. 20$ plugs do the job just fine - they sound good, and reduce the volume by 20db, which is fine for most gigs and venues.


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## Dores (Jun 10, 2012)

Necris said:


> I have plenty of things I've noticed from going to live shows but these are some of the ones that apply directly to the sound. It should come as a complete surprise to absolutely noone that many of the issues with live metal sound could be fixed by doing a bit of work before the show to find good eq settings and then turning the fuck down.
> 
> 1. Noone puts any real effort into getting a good live sound before the actual show under the incorrect assumption that the sound guy will do it for them.
> 
> ...



Totally agree.

And in my experience, toilet paper is 100x more effective than hearos. It dampens really evenly, and is free everywhere.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 10, 2012)

I would never put toilet paper found in a public bathroom in my ears. Disgusting...


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## Dores (Jun 10, 2012)

You do realize that if toilet paper was dirty in the first place, wiping your butt with it would be just as disgusting? Unless it's wet, and as long as you don't take the paper at the very end of the roll, it's way cleaner than your hands are in the first place.

And still, you can always bring toilet paper from your house if you're picky.  I was also worried at fist, but after using it once, I won't ever go back to anything else.


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## Greatoliver (Jun 10, 2012)

I actually kinda wish that gigs weren't so loud  I don't really see why band have to massively crank the volume right up - I think a lot of clarity would come if it wasn't killing your ears.


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## robare99 (Jun 11, 2012)

Guitar tones with scooped mids really get lost in the mix.


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## noUser01 (Jun 11, 2012)

I honestly think a huge part of it is that people need to start taking tips from recording and mixing. 

When I was asked to help with the sound for a friend's rehearsal I was happy to help as I love their band (death metal stuff mostly) and love doing anything involving music. They both had AxeFX's and their bass player was using an Ampeg setup. Typical metal drumkit sound, very tight but still fairly fat sounding. I heard them and they sounded pretty good, then I thought I'd apply some recording knowledge to this and see what would happen. I had both guitar players scoop their bass with a roll off from about 100Hz downward. A bit less on the player who played rhythm more often (for obvious reasons, keeping the sound fat and ballsy), rolled off at about 85Hz if I remember correctly... that alone made a HUGE difference in their sound, it was fatter and clearer. I was shocked! The bass player had an awesome tone dialed in already and it took over right where the guitars left off, sounded so heavy and huge and the vocalist was really pleased that he was able to turn his mic and monitor down and still be able to hear himself (he has bad hearing loss already from listening to and playing at loud volumes, as well as doing lots of work in factories without hearing protection) really clearly. We got mixed results with EQ'ing the mid range (the hardest area to tame in my opinion) but just gave up after about 10 minutes because we were so pleased with what we had, we didn't want to mess anything up. I make all my presets on the AxeFX with a roll off from 100Hz now (or less depending on the guitar, but usually around 80-105Hz) and it sounds so much better live AND when recording. I just keep it as a separate block in the AxeFX from any other EQ blocks I have in there so I can just turn it off if I need to. So far I haven't needed to touch it at a show, the result was always a much better sound with it on and set to 100Hz. 

Now of course this is a somewhat isolated event... sort of... but I'm just saying there's a lot more that can be done with our rigs these days. If you run an amp, try an EQ and do something similar, mess with a good EQ pedal and you may be surprised with the results. Heck, there's so much more than just EQ to try out with your live rig!! Compression, reverb, delay, stereo enhancers/expanders, you name it. Right now I'm putting together a list of other ideas I want to try out with the same band, we'll see what comes out.


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## Davey (Jun 12, 2012)

Half the problem is the sheer volume that many metal bands will play at. They crank their amps up super loud in small/medium venues and there's so much sound coming off the stage, combining with what's coming through the PA, that the sound guy can't control the mix properly anymore.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jun 12, 2012)

ConnorGilks said:


> I honestly think a huge part of it is that people need to start taking tips from recording and mixing.
> 
> When I was asked to help with the sound for a friend's rehearsal I was happy to help as I love their band (death metal stuff mostly) and love doing anything involving music. They both had AxeFX's and their bass player was using an Ampeg setup. Typical metal drumkit sound, very tight but still fairly fat sounding. I heard them and they sounded pretty good, then I thought I'd apply some recording knowledge to this and see what would happen. I had both guitar players scoop their bass with a roll off from about 100Hz downward. A bit less on the player who played rhythm more often (for obvious reasons, keeping the sound fat and ballsy), rolled off at about 85Hz if I remember correctly... that alone made a HUGE difference in their sound, it was fatter and clearer. I was shocked! The bass player had an awesome tone dialed in already and it took over right where the guitars left off, sounded so heavy and huge and the vocalist was really pleased that he was able to turn his mic and monitor down and still be able to hear himself (he has bad hearing loss already from listening to and playing at loud volumes, as well as doing lots of work in factories without hearing protection) really clearly. We got mixed results with EQ'ing the mid range (the hardest area to tame in my opinion) but just gave up after about 10 minutes because we were so pleased with what we had, we didn't want to mess anything up. I make all my presets on the AxeFX with a roll off from 100Hz now (or less depending on the guitar, but usually around 80-105Hz) and it sounds so much better live AND when recording. I just keep it as a separate block in the AxeFX from any other EQ blocks I have in there so I can just turn it off if I need to. So far I haven't needed to touch it at a show, the result was always a much better sound with it on and set to 100Hz.


 High-pass at 100hz cleans up guitar tone beautifully.


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## McBonez (Jun 13, 2012)

I remember playing a Battle of the Bands type thing about a year ago.

Most of our songs weren't overly techy, and generally carried a pretty straight forward groove to them.

I laughed after reading the judges score cards for things like "lead guitar cut out" and "mix sounded muddy"

Considering we were using pod 2.0's provided by the venue, straight into the board, it was an amusing judgement.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Jun 13, 2012)

Tip:

-If you want to hear the best mix, go stand where the sound guy is mixing.

-Don't stand at the dront of stage, the speakers don't cover it, and all you tend to hear is the stage mix. People's stage mixes are odd, and don't contain everything, eg, a wedge mix for guitarist A may have himself, snare and kick with a little bit of guitarist B. Guitarist B has say bass, his guitar and just kick drums. 

-Some PA's are crap, and require a lot of EQing by the sound guy, sometimes this eq-ing destroys the guitar sound or another instrument and it becomes hard to get upfront. Not all venues are equal, and you don't have time to re-eq a guitar rig for every venue. Sometimes you change a little bit,. but mainly for a tour you set a sound and that's it

It's not always going to be good unfortunately, but sometimes it is 

Also, hearing wise, I suggest moulded earplugs with interchangeable DB filters, as they evenly reduce all the frequencies. Expensive, but they will be moulded to you


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jun 13, 2012)

_As a listener_
Always wear ear plugs or whatever form of protection you can
-Toilet paper can work. Fold it into a roll, rip it into 4 small, evenly sized pieces, fold again and it should fit your ear well (assuming toilet paper is a standard size internationally, maybe people have bigger **** overseas  ).
-Don't be a cheap skate, they are your ONLY pair of ears for a lifetime!
-Move round the venue and find the triangle of projection, between the two main FOH speakers and the middle of the room, then find the nearest place to lean and rest the beers your friends are getting while you conducted reconnaisance.
-As 7DyingTrees said, the room should have been designed with the mix position in, or as near as the buildings construciton will allow, the room's sweet spot. Near there should be the best.

_As a musician_
-If the sound engineer works at the venue 24/7 he knows his job, the room and the equipment. He's probably burned out and deaf, but knows what he is doing, so have faith!

SE's get a lot of flak in threads like these, but it's a dedication and a performance art too, with a desk as an instrument. Just like musicians, some are better than others.

-Onstage sound is always horrible, at best a compromise, so don't be disappointed, it's NOT what the audience hears. Many players complain about onstage sound, meanwhile the audience raves about the great TONES!

-Soundcheck is crucial, make sure to be alert when the SE is asking for levels in the monitors and that you are clear, precise and polite when you get yours setup. Knowing what you want and the jargon for it is half the battle.

_As a sound engineer_
I was going to write a section on this, but to be honest SE's are a different breed of human beings than dedicated guitarists. Possibly they're more like bass players mentally, but more different still... Perhaps disturbed, angry bass players, with a bitter streak and a large portion of realism.

They get to watch and observe many players and have a pretty solid perspective on what musicians are all about. 

I've done some live sound and engineering and after a while you pretty much want to nuke the planet from orbit. SE's are on a different wave length to guitarists, that's for sure. 

Writing down little notes of things to watch out for could be constructive, but lets just say there's a lot of potential for rage associated with being responsible for an evening's sound. 

It's usually stuff unrelated to music; people being late or slow to pack away their gear, regular human concerns, although music and personalities can factor into it, but usually trivial concerns take precedence when factoring rage, in my experience.

Anyone remember Slipperman's articles? He expresses Engineer rage pretty explicitly.  /


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## McBonez (Jun 13, 2012)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Tip:
> 
> -If you want to hear the best mix, go stand where the sound guy is mixing.





Yup. My wife never understands why that's our point of view for a show.


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## KingAenarion (Jun 19, 2012)

robare99 said:


> Guitar tones with scooped mids really get lost in the mix.



No shit Sherlock


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## supercolio (Jun 23, 2012)

Best sound live?

Stam1na 31.3.2012 @ Finlanida-klubi, Finland.

It sounded just like it did on a record. Fun as hell, too (couldn't turn my head next morning)! About sound levels, I love when they're loud as hell. You can feel the bass going straight through you. Just plug in some plugs and enjoy!


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## TheEntheogenEgoKiller (Jun 23, 2012)

I run sound constantly on a quite large P.A for smaller touring bands all the time. The overall mix will only sound good if the band playing knows how to set their stuff up. I've ran sound at festivals before with tons of bands and sometimes they will sound great and sometimes they sound like absolute shiiiiiiiiiiiiiT no matter how much tweaking on the board is done. 

Every time I'm putting guitar mics on cabs I look at the amp settings... More metal guitarists have no clue about tone than other styles of music IMO. It seems like when they are standing on stage and chugging away it sounds good to them when they are standing above the speakers, but at the same time everyone in the crowd is getting killed by a sonic assault of treble.


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## Kiwimetal101 (Jun 24, 2012)

I saw august burns red a couple of years ago at a indoor festival, best sounding band due to TURNING THE VOLUME DOWN. not shit loads but enough for everything to have its place in the mix, but the best was part was being able to hear all the guitar parts clearly.


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## iRaiseTheDead (Jun 25, 2012)

Most deathcore bands (at least local) like to turn their bass to 11 because they think its teh br00tz
so that completely kills it for the riffs and shit


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## SammyKillChambers (Jun 25, 2012)

See Meshuggah live. Done.


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## texshred777 (Jun 25, 2012)

AAL had the best live sound I've ever heard. Made me a believer in the Axe FX. 

When I saw Dream Theater it sounded like garbage. I'm sure it was the venue(Austin Music Hall)-but my best friend said it was the same way at the House of Blues in Dallas. There is an awful lot going on in that mix, though.


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## drgamble (Jun 25, 2012)

If you have the money to go through basically a Pro Tools mix then you are covered, you just have to EQ to the room and there are a lot of tools out there to do it. I think that it is much different on the local level. When you play small clubs, the band has to take more control over the overall mix, and most guys in bands don't have a clue what is involved in mixing. A band that has their own sound engineer is going to sound way better than somebody running sound for a band that he's never heard. These days with mixing boards that are available you are able to automate an enter live mix, especially if the drummer plays to a click. Most of the time heavy music in a small club sounds like a wall of sound but not very articulate. Usually when something is too loud, it gets to the point of losing all detail. I honestly think that electronic drums with good trigger sounds is the best way to go in a small club. You can control the volume much more. When everything has to be louder than a live metal drum kit, it can easily overwhelm the room.


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## Ultraussie (Jun 27, 2012)

I remember seeing some deathcore band on tour once, and there was this guy with a 7 stringer and it had a floyd rose on it, anyway within 30 seconds he breaks a string, and then he breaks ANOTHER 2 STRINGS.
He kept playing but, I couldn't hear the difference, so yeah, I dunno he probally turned his volume down but I honestly coun't hear anything different after he broke his strings, but then again the only thing they were playing before his strings broke were chugga chugga breakdowns.

Local bands actually sound better live because they're recording quality is redicuosly bad...


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 6, 2012)

he probably had his trem blocked and his mids scooped so the strings breaking wouldn't matter and you wouldn't be able to hear him anyways.


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## Wrecklyss (Jul 7, 2012)

robare99 said:


> Guitar tones with scooped mids really get lost in the mix.



So true. Just because you can get away with it in the studio, where you're isolated and not competing with drums, vox, and bass doesn't mean it will work live. Boosted mids make for a killer live sound.


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## robare99 (Jul 10, 2012)

Davey said:


> Half the problem is the sheer volume that many metal bands will play at. They crank their amps up super loud in small/medium venues and there's so much sound coming off the stage, combining with what's coming through the PA, that the sound guy can't control the mix properly anymore.



This.

As an SE, I can always make you louder, but it you are too loud, destroying the mix, there's really nothing I can do. The venues I do sound at have a certain level they like to keep it below. They know it will be loud, but if a patron has to yell into their ear, and they can't hear it, it's going to be too loud. 

I stand out front and get the guitar players to adjust their stage volumes until they are even, and filling the center area of the stage. Then I give them lots in their monitors, which are pointed at their head & ears, vs the speaker cabinet which is pointed at the backs of their knees. 

Keeping stage levels reasonable makes it easier to get a good monitor mix for each band member. They can have whatever they want. Then I can out together the FOH mix. (drums, bass & vocals dialed in as well)

Sometimes backing off the gain also cleans up the sound as well as not scooping the mids. I know. Scooped mids sound badass at home, but when playing in the band, you have to think of the bands sound first. When I practice at home, I like having chorus on, but at a gig, my tone totally disappears if I have chorus on, so I play without it. Not my ideal tone but it works better with the band, which is my main concern. How do WE sound, is more important than how I sound. 

I make sure I have lots of me in my monitor, my vocals, and done lead vocals. 

But anyway...

I love working with a band thats dialed in among themselves. Easy to work with. I'm doing sound tomorrow for 2 bands I've never met. Been checking out some of their YouTube videos to get a bit of a feel for the band. Then Friday I'm doing sound for 2 bands I've done sound for lots. The guitars in the one band have a habit of creeping up during the set. I think I'll give them LOTS of themselves to start with and see how it goes. In this venue, cymbals and snare REALLY carry, and it's a loud drummer. 

But, great guys, it's just how it is, so I work with it accordingly. Did sound 2 weekends ago for 7 bands. They all loved the onstage mix. The manager for the headliner thats been around and opened for a lot of pretty big names (Tanya Tucker, Bare Naked Ladies etc) said they've played all sizes of stages, from small ones to some pretty damn big ones, and the mix was one of the best he's heard. 

I asked another heavy band between sets how it sounded on stage, and the bass player said "it sounds awesome up there. It's like a CD, but it's us!!"


So those are some pretty good compliments.

5000W FOH
1500W for monitors


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## McKay (Jul 12, 2012)

Ultraussie said:


> I remember seeing some deathcore band on tour once, and there was this guy with a 7 stringer and it had a floyd rose on it, anyway within 30 seconds he breaks a string, and then he breaks ANOTHER 2 STRINGS.
> He kept playing but, I couldn't hear the difference, so yeah, I dunno he *probally* turned his volume down but I honestly coun't hear anything different after he broke his strings, but then again the only thing they were playing before his strings broke were chugga chugga breakdowns.
> 
> Local bands actually sound better live because *they're* recording quality is *redicuosly* bad...



Deathcore haters in a nutshell.


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## WhiteWalls (Jul 13, 2012)

Live sound has always puzzled me because it feels there's so much randomness involved. The room, soundguy, mic placement, stage size, they are all things that by themselves can change your sound dramatically, and if you start adding them up things can get messy.

I have been to a lot of gigs in my life, mainly local bands, and sometimes no amount of cash spent on gear can make a band sound good, because maybe a miced Peavey Bandit 1x12 fits the room better than your 2000$ axe-fx patch. Or maybe the soundman doesn't know what metal is and the overall mix has no mids and no kick drum.

This is actually why I'm pushing my band mates to get rid of their amps and go direct to the FOH, because that way we can pretty much mix ourselves at rehearsals, just to get an idea if the sounds themselves are good out of the FOH (this is another common mistake, standing next to an amp and saying "it sounds good", then when miced it's complete crap).

@ultraussie: that may have been true some years ago, but right now it's the opposite problem, every new band has access to professional recordings for very cheap, so they sound super tight on record and then you go to a concert and discover that they can't play


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## wakjob (Jul 14, 2012)

Poor sound guys.

In local gigs, clubs and such, either the house PA is low end quality OR the band brings their own PA and expects someone to jump right in and mix for them. Then you factor in the room!

I've worked with outstanding sound crews. I asked them if they ever worked a gig where everyone was running direct via modelers and electronic drum kit. They said yeah, its sounded great! But weird, with no sound coming from the stage they had to rethink things that they just weren't used to.

This was pretty cool:





BIG +1 on sonic filter ear plugs! I love em'. Wear them all day at work, and out at gigs.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Jul 14, 2012)

Rammstein, Combichrist, Alice In Chains, Kill Hannah and Velvet Revolver all sounded kickass when I saw them


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## Ultraussie (Jul 15, 2012)

McKay said:


> Deathcore haters in a nutshell.




I actually like "good" deathcore, some of my fav bands could be classified as deathcore.
The other bands that night were also deathcoreish and they had much more defined sound, its all gotta do with the guitar tones, some guys dunno how to make the guitar amp sound good in different situations different volumes etc


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## rotebass (Jul 15, 2012)

Many bands just sound like shit. Sad state of affairs, the ability to slip edit and re-amp a band into sounding good isn't possible in a live context.


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## robare99 (Jul 19, 2012)

Well I ended up doing sound for the loud band I mentioned. It all starts with the drums. Heavy heavy hitter with a loud brass snare that's almost like a gunshot going off. The guitarists are much too loud, but there's no real talking with them. If they turn down, they will turn up after one song. I'm sure some of that is also because of the extra loud drums going on behind them. Guitars are mic'd but not a lot going through FOH since they are so loud. I can bring up the solos if needed. 

So the vocals in the monitors have to be really up there to hear themselves. The lead singer has what I would say is a quieter voice. Low, and almost Jake Dylan-ish if I had to compare him to someone. So his gain is always up quite a bit. The girl singer just seems to be a bit on the shrill side. I play with her EQ, but I juuuuuuust haven't quite dialed it in. I might have to Sit down with the recording and some headphones and play with it until I find an EQ setting that works. She is using a keyboard amp, which I suggested a few gigs ago, and it works out really good. She can get what she needs from it, and I take what I need from the keyboard for the FOH mix. 

I usually end up riding the vocal faders, backing them off a bit for the non-vocal parts since they are running so hot. It works, sometimes I have to do that with a band, sometimes I don't. 

Don't get me wrong, they are a great sounding band, but just LOUD. So when they stop playing, the monitors are so loud that you can hear some feedback juuuuuuuuuust trying to sneak in. I ended up just turning the monitor mixes down a touch, which tamed it, and quickly explained it to them between songs. So they were cool with it. 

But the whole base of the problem I'd say is the drummer doesn't play for the room. Like I said, great guy and a hell of a drummer, but yeah, life would be a lot easier if he played for the room, which is pretty small. Still got compliments, and a couple buddies even said they know it's a tough room, just from the looks of it, and good job. 

The first band was a 3 piece, 2 guitars, mandolin, and an acoustic bass (not a standup) that they would take turns on. Sounded great, lots of monitors, great mix, no issues at all. 

But like I said, I know the LOUD band, and thats just how they are. We always make a good show out of it, it's just how it it. 

But that's love combat audio. Doing what you can with what you are given. One take, no restarts.


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## rotebass (Jul 20, 2012)

robare99 said:


> Well I ended up doing sound for the loud band I mentioned. It all starts with the drums. Heavy heavy hitter with a loud brass snare that's almost like a gunshot going off. The guitarists are much too loud, but there's no real talking with them. If they turn down, they will turn up after one song. I'm sure some of that is also because of the extra loud drums going on behind them. Guitars are mic'd but not a lot going through FOH since they are so loud. I can bring up the solos if needed.
> 
> So the vocals in the monitors have to be really up there to hear themselves. The lead singer has what I would say is a quieter voice. Low, and almost Jake Dylan-ish if I had to compare him to someone. So his gain is always up quite a bit. The girl singer just seems to be a bit on the shrill side. I play with her EQ, but I juuuuuuust haven't quite dialed it in. I might have to Sit down with the recording and some headphones and play with it until I find an EQ setting that works. She is using a keyboard amp, which I suggested a few gigs ago, and it works out really good. She can get what she needs from it, and I take what I need from the keyboard for the FOH mix.
> 
> ...



Sennheiser e 845 - Microphone - Dynamic microphone

Solution to a quiet singer.


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## KingAenarion (Jul 22, 2012)

robare99 said:


> Well I ended up doing sound for the loud band I mentioned. It all starts with the drums. Heavy heavy hitter with a loud brass snare that's almost like a gunshot going off.



Those deadening rings will help a little with that. Drummers tend to hate them, but when you explain to them that they make it sound better in the room as a part of a balanced mix they usually will oblige.



> The guitarists are much too loud, but there's no real talking with them. If they turn down, they will turn up after one song. I'm sure some of that is also because of the extra loud drums going on behind them.


 A SPL meter can help with this. The amount of times I've forced a band to sound good by quickly explaining either sound laws or sound principles and chordal intelligibility at high SPL levels is astounding.



> So when they stop playing, the monitors are so loud that you can hear some feedback juuuuuuuuuust trying to sneak in. I ended up just turning the monitor mixes down a touch, which tamed it, and quickly explained it to them between songs. So they were cool with it.


 No offence, but it sounds to me like incorrectly rung out monitors (or not enough headroom in the monitors)


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 22, 2012)

McKay said:


> Deathcore haters in a nutshell.



Honestly man, I played in a deathcore band for a bit and I met next to no people who knew anything about getting a decent mix live. IE. guitars with mids! 

But then a lot of death metal guys are just as bad/retarded so I don't think its genre specific but the age group of people playing deathcore is a lot younger typically so that could explain it.


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## CTID (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't think it really has anything to do with age, it just takes time to learn how to EQ properly. Once I got my first nice amp I sat down for about an hour EQing everything on it to make it sound great and cut in the mix, and a lot of people - not just teenagers, though they do it as well - will just plug in, dime the gain and treble, scoop the mids and call it a day.


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## robare99 (Jul 23, 2012)

KingAenarion said:


> Those deadening rings will help a little with that. Drummers tend to hate them, but when you explain to them that they make it sound better in the room as a part of a balanced mix they usually will oblige.



These on the snare, or on the cymbals?



KingAenarion said:


> A SPL meter can help with this. The amount of times I've forced a band to sound good by quickly explaining either sound laws or sound principles and chordal intelligibility at high SPL levels is astounding.



I've mentioned a few things, and it's yup yup yup, then they just keep turning them up. 



KingAenarion said:


> No offence, but it sounds to me like incorrectly rung out monitors (or not enough headroom in the monitors)



True. Usually they are pretty good and I don't need to squeeze out evey little speck before they feedback. I'll spend a bit more time on them, then next time they are slated to play. 

It was one of those deals where I was booked on a Friday. With my schedule, sometimes Fridays are good (when I don't work that day) then I set up at 2pm and have lots of time for everything. But this was after a Friday that I worked, so I was unable to get to the venue until 6:30pm so there wasn't a lot of time for everything. The next time I'm at that venue, and have the time I'll take the time and really ring them out. 


But yeah, just too loud, so we make it through, and it ends up being mainly vocals, and drums through the PA. 



rotebass said:


> Sennheiser e 845 - Microphone - Dynamic microphone
> 
> Solution to a quiet singer.




Thanks for the tip, I'll pick one up. I've ran into the odd band where the singer is "quiet"


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## robare99 (Jul 23, 2012)

CTID said:


> I don't think it really has anything to do with age, it just takes time to learn how to EQ properly. Once I got my first nice amp I sat down for about an hour EQing everything on it to make it sound great and cut in the mix, and a lot of people - not just teenagers, though they do it as well - will just plug in, dime the gain and treble, scoop the mids and call it a day.



More people need to work on their tone, on axis. Sitting in front of the amp, so they hear what will be mic'd and not what they are hearing off axis as the sound blows by their knees....


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## devolutionary (Jul 24, 2012)

Meshuggah and Chimaira were pretty fucking great sounding, to be honest. NIN as well, though they are borderline metal, depending on the song. I do agree that often shows are too loud. I tend to find hanging out at the sound desk instead of in the pit is the best as well if you're going for the music like I do.


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