# Schecter Guitars - "they are all made the same" - Really?!?



## moony (Feb 15, 2017)

Hi there, 

I'm a longtime guest here, just reading, had nothing to write - since now. 

I've got two 2015 Schecter Blackjack ATX C-1 guitars. 
Here's the link to Schecter's homepage: http://www.schecterguitars.com/vault/listing/blackjack-atx-c-1-2013-11-14-detail

So the guitars were fine, sounded well and looked nice - but there were the necks... Schecter calls it the "thin C profile". As you see in the specs, they are @ 1st Fret- .787 (20mm)/ @ 12th Fret- .866 (22mm)

And now just take a look: 




























As you see, the first one is 24,82 mm at 12th fret, the second one is 25,28 mm at 12th fret. I've measured the shortest possible distance with the digital caliper between the upper side of the fretboard in the middle of 11th and 12th fret to the back of the neck - and cared for setting the caliper straight. I've also used a measuring tape to show the distance between the fretboard edges round the back of the neck, which is 8,2 cm and 8,4 cm. 



Maybe you could imagine, that those necks are really fat and had nothing to do with a "thin C profile". Maybe someone knows those funny asian Youtube clips from "Todays Gear", where that one guy always measures the neck thickness and circumference of the necks of the guitars at 12th fret? I've watched a lot of those clips, skipped to the scene, where he does so and searched for some guitars, which had comparable fat necks. I can't find any mass-produced ones. There are only a handful of Gibson Custom Shop RIs, which could barely compete. 

Since I've got the guitars, I struggled with the playability on the higher frets, but couldn't handle it well. So I contacted Schecter via FB and told them about that problem. They advised me to talk to their "tech" via E-Mail, who seems to be the man for worldwide customer support. I've written to him, gave him the results of my measurements and asked, if probably Schecter or some distributor will exchange the guitars for some with thinner necks, because I can't handle that chunky ones. 

Guess what this Jacob "Jake" guy answered?

"I'm sorry that you're not satisfied with the neck shape of our instruments, but those are made exactly to our specifications. There isn't anything we can do... [...] I'm really sorry, but we won't replace your guitars because you don't like the neck shape. These instruments are all made the same."



I've showed him the link to Schecter's homepage. There is no single neck with 25mm at 12th fret. 
And guys, don't get me wrong - I would be totally fine, if it had fe. 23,5 mm - but not 25 and more. 
I've tried to explain to this "tech", how they feel and that they are way out of specs. And he just decided to tell me, that this is not Schecter's problem, if the necks "don't meet your preferences. Preference does not fall under our warranty policy". 

This is really funny, isn't it?

So guys, take care, if you order some Schecter guitars, maybe you want a 6 String and get a 5 String, or you want a black one and get a neon pink one? But hey, that's all your preferences and not a warranty claim then. 

I don't know, what the hell does qualifiy such an ignorantly behaving guy to be a "tech" and why Schecter can't simply admit, that there went something really wrong at the WMI factory in South Korea, where those guitars were manufactured. Everyone would understand, that a CNC cut neck will never be thick 25mm, if you want it to be 22mm and program the CNC to cut it 22,5mm (because you sand off the 0,5mm when finishing the neck). 

I will not longer support a company like Schecter, who treats their customers like idiots. So I sell off all my Schecter guitars (which are 5 more beside the two Blackjacks). But that's just me. And yes, maybe I should give a f*** and just play the guitars... 


Just wanted to share my experience and wanted to know, what you think about this.

Best regards!


----------



## Vhyle (Feb 15, 2017)

Seriously?


----------



## moony (Feb 15, 2017)

Yes, Sir!


----------



## Vhyle (Feb 15, 2017)

You're arguing about fractions of a millimeter here. On an instrument made of wood.

With this gained knowledge of your profound measurements, does it change the way the guitar feels at all?


----------



## Winspear (Feb 15, 2017)

I have nothing to contribute but no way is that fractions of a mm, that is a huge difference in spec


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Feb 15, 2017)

I think it's a bit ridiculous to get 5+ guitars into a company and then decide due to some scrutiny with a pair of calipers, that you've been "wronged" and deserve some sort of compensation.


----------



## moony (Feb 15, 2017)

Have you ever played a guitar with such a big neck and compared it to one with a thin neck? 

Maybe there are people who don't care - I do so. 
Of course, there are always little tolerances. And as I've already stated, I wouldn't have a problem, if it's 23 or 23,5 mm. But not 25!

Please notice: 

Schecter mainly offers *3 different neck profiles* on their electric guitars: 
- *Ultra thin C*: @ 1st Fret- .748 (19mm)/ @ 12th Fret- .787 (20mm) - like on the Banshee, Keith Merrow and Jeff Loomis Signature, Blackjack SLS, Hellraiser Hybrid etc. 

- *Thin C*: @ 1st Fret- .787 (20mm)/ @ 12th Fret- .866 (22mm) - like on the Hellraiser, Blackjack ATX (like mines), Custom, Apocalypse, Platinum etc. 

- *C*: @ 1st Fret- .826 (21mm)/ @ 12th Fret- .905 (23mm) - like on the new Standard or some Solo II etc. 

Does it make any sense to you, if you order a guitar with a "thin C" and get a "chunky U"?
Why then giving such specs, if you'll get more or less of 3 mm? 

I know, that "these few millimeters" don't sound that much. But you could imagine a guitar neck profile like a half circle. If you increase the radius, you will increase the circumference a lot more by doing so. And you'll have to wrap your hands around it. Someone, who haven't the biggest hands, would probably care more about it than a guy with really tall hands.


----------



## moony (Feb 15, 2017)

High Plains Drifter said:


> I think it's a bit ridiculous to get 7 guitars into a company and then decide due to some scrutiny with a pair of calipers, that you've been "wronged" and deserve some sort of compensation.



I do not need to play these guitars, I haven't played them that much. And yes, if a company treats it's customers like idiots, I won't support them any longer. I'm pretty sure, that that doesn't bother Schecter. But me either.


----------



## Meeotch (Feb 15, 2017)

Yikes, thanks for sharing and that is a huge bummer. I can't say I've ever measured my guitar's necks and compared them to spec, but I would be frustrated to find such a discrepancy. 

I agree the CNC machines should be accurate to a high degree, but maybe there's more to it? At least you're not too deep in the hole even if you decide to sell it for cheap.


----------



## Electric Wizard (Feb 15, 2017)

What did you expect them to do? These are 2015 models, they don't make the ATX series anymore even if they would entertain an exchange.


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Feb 16, 2017)

I can appreciate being soured towards a company that allows such discrepancies and I can understand wanting to alert others about such findings. I'm just not at all surprised nor outraged that they wouldn't care to offer compensation in this kind of scenario. If these were high-end guitars coming from a custom shop, then I'd be livid possibly, but at least to me, that's a much different situation. 

Thanks sincerely for the PSA as I had no idea that they had any noteworthy inconsistencies in their specs until now. Cheers and no disrespect intended, OP.


----------



## Lasik124 (Feb 16, 2017)

QC Issues man

Its common and it sucks


----------



## feraledge (Feb 16, 2017)

If they are Korean, I think 2015 was when WMI had a ton of issues. LTD Deluxes I saw during that period had crazy variation in neck thickness.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 16, 2017)

feraledge said:


> If they are Korean, I think 2015 was when WMI had a ton of issues. LTD Deluxes I saw during that period had crazy variation in neck thickness.



Huh. That explains why my M-1000's neck is not "extra thin" as advertised. IIRC, it measured 21mm at the 1st fret and 22.5 at the 12th. Comfy, though.


----------



## Forkface (Feb 16, 2017)

so, 7 schecter guitars in, you decided that you don't like the company?
kek

also



moony said:


> So guys, take care, if you order some Schecter guitars, maybe you want a 6 String and get a 5 String, or you want a black one and get a neon pink one? But hey, that's all your preferences and not a warranty claim then.
> 
> Best regards!



double kekek.


----------



## Zado (Feb 16, 2017)

That's absolutely shameful , I hope you'll sell those horrid instruments for super cheap, and don't mind overseas shipping. They don't deserve anything better


feraledge said:


> If they are Korean, I think 2015 was when WMI had a ton of issues. LTD Deluxes I saw during that period had crazy variation in neck thickness.



That's what I though. I loved some of those beefy necks.


----------



## Jeffbro (Feb 16, 2017)

3mm difference is HUGE in a neck. Even 1mm is very noticeable. If they were new I would have returned them 100%.

Imagine if a wizard neck was made 3mm thinner. You'd have a warped useless guitar in no time.


----------



## lemeker (Feb 16, 2017)

I'm just curious, but have you checked any other brands tolerances across 7 "production" guitars. I think that you should before creating an account to slam a company from which you freely and willingly bought guitars from multiple times.


----------



## budda (Feb 16, 2017)

You know wood expands and contracts, right?


----------



## cwhitey2 (Feb 16, 2017)

Trolling?


This has to be the most pointless thread I have ever seen.



If you don't like your guitars then sell them...don't blame the manufacturer. Also, there is an error % tolerance allowed in manufacturing. I think +/-1mm on a piece of wood that has nothing to do with anything mechanical is acceptable. 


You're exactly the kind of customer businesses don't want.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Feb 16, 2017)

tolerances are a thing.
Also wood isn't tempered steel. It moves and stuff.

try before you buy and return what you don't like.

I haven't even played 2 PRS necks that have felt the same.


----------



## Winspear (Feb 16, 2017)

I reckon the last few posts must be comparing the 2 measurements to each other, not to the spec..


----------



## StrmRidr (Feb 16, 2017)

Really? Am I the only one who plays guitar and does not over analyze every aspect of my instruments? You try a guitar, if it feels good to you and you like it, you buy it. Who cares if the neck is not within a 0% tolerance from the specs?


----------



## MichaelH (Feb 16, 2017)

I have a hard time understanding all the people here that slams the OP. The difference is not a fraction of a mm and 3-4mm difference is very noticeable and in my opinion is not within % tolerance.
I agree that it's not logical for schecter to even consider a refund but his complaint has merit


----------



## blacai (Feb 16, 2017)

I would say, +2mm for the neck profile is a big difference.
It is not about a +/- 5% margin error, it is about 11% and 14% in a "small" piece of wood. I understand the complaint.

I have never measured my guitars. I play and test if I like and then I buy it, but sometimes you cannot play it before, so if you trust the specs, you expect them to be real and precise.


----------



## GraemeH (Feb 16, 2017)

3.28 mm isn't "wood expansion". If your neck expanded 3.28mm all the frets and binding would have popped off and the finish cracked. That's a huge amount. The instrument just wasn't built to spec.

I've no idea how that even happens with CNC.

Having said that, it's sensible with guitars to have a policy of only buying specific ones you've held for reasons like this. But I get why he's pissed if he was sent something that far out from the spec he bought based on.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Hi guys, 

I've expected some reactions like these "you're the customer, business don't want", "wood works", "why haven't you immediatly returned them", "trolling" etc.. 

Just to clarify something: 

1) I've had to return a couple of other Schecter guitars which had flaws all the time, when purchasing the other 5 ones. I haven't lost any word about that. That happens, and yes, you can't expect a high quality perfect crafted guitar in this price range coming out of a Korean factory. I don't mind sloppy paintshops or sharp fretends (easy to fix)

2) I do mind a neck, which is simply 3 mm thicker than it should be. You can't easily sand it off to get your preferred thickness. If you do so, you need to lacquer it again, because mahogany isn't the best wood for bare necks - please don't discuss, that's my opinion. And there will be the danger, that the truss rod breaks through, if not enough wood is left at the back of the necks. 

3) Some guys of you seemed to misunderstand, what I've shown here. These are two guitars, BOTH have too thick necks. The neck should be around 22mm at the 12th fret (with 74mm circumference - measured it on 2 Hellraiser Extreme guitars with "thin C" profile), not 25 mm with 84 mm circumference. To the guy, who said "wood works" - have you really experienced a lacquered mahogany neck, which grows 3 mm thicker by time? Really? Time to wash your hands, hm? 

4) For sure, I noticed, that the necks were thicker. I haven't measured them when I got the guitars. Why should I? It's more important, how they feel than what the caliper says. But, as I've already stated - I tried to get used to them all the time and wasn't able to. I struggled with the playability and every other guitar, I put up, feels so much more comfortable. My fault was to rely on Schecter's given specs. I have never thought, that these necks are fatter than any current Gibson 50s neck (except some rare CS RIs). Because you can't discuss something without facts (keep that in mind guys!), I've measured them - and after that results, it makes totally sense, why there is no way for me to handle them. 

5) This is clearly a defect, because I've bought the guitars as they were described, bases on the specs. Schecter had the chance to exchange them - I've already asked, if they could give me a Hellraiser or something in that price range, if they haven't any Blackjacks left in stock, as they are discontinued. Schecter did not even understand the problem with the necks, ignores the facts and lies to me, when saying "they are all the same" and ignoring the facts. You simply can't do that, if you do serious business with your customers. That's my hones opinion. 

6) I don't want to "slam" them, but simply telling you, what happened. My thoughts about getting a 5-string instead of a 6-string or a neon-pink instead of a black - that's just sarcasm, because I think, it's the better way to get over this, better than insulting them, right? 

7) I wanted this discussion, because I've read it so many times, when some guys complained about "thick Schecter necks" and others said "that were the old ones, the new ones aren't that big". And I wanted to know, how you would feel about getting a "chunky U" neck when bought a "thin C". To my surprise, it seems, that there are many of you, who couldn't care less about this. I don't know, if they are serious - that's why I've asked, if they had ever experienced a comparison between a thin and a thick guitar neck, like Ibanez Wizard vs. Gibson 50s. Yes, that makes a difference - at least to me.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 16, 2017)

GraemeH said:


> I've no idea how that even happens with CNC.



CNC is just a router that follows a set of instructions. It does not just bring a piece of stock to spec. The operator could position the stock badly, start with the wrong thickness stock, sanding has to be done by hand, etc.


----------



## Jeffbro (Feb 16, 2017)

People who can't read, don't have a clue how wood works, or are straight up trolling...

3mm is a ridiculous amount to be off on neck thickness. I just measured all my guitars and they are all spot on in thickness.

If this happened to Kiesel this site would be crashing from the haters.




Vhyle said:


> Seriously?





Vhyle said:


> You're arguing about fractions of a millimeter here. On an instrument made of wood.
> 
> With this gained knowledge of your profound measurements, does it change the way the guitar feels at all?





High Plains Drifter said:


> I think it's a bit ridiculous to get 5+ guitars into a company and then decide due to some scrutiny with a pair of calipers, that you've been "wronged" and deserve some sort of compensation.





Forkface said:


> so, 7 schecter guitars in, you decided that you don't like the company?
> kek
> 
> also
> ...





lemeker said:


> I'm just curious, but have you checked any other brands tolerances across 7 "production" guitars. I think that you should before creating an account to slam a company from which you freely and willingly bought guitars from multiple times.





budda said:


> You know wood expands and contracts, right?





cwhitey2 said:


> Trolling?
> 
> 
> This has to be the most pointless thread I have ever seen.
> ...





diagrammatiks said:


> tolerances are a thing.
> Also wood isn't tempered steel. It moves and stuff.
> 
> try before you buy and return what you don't like.
> ...





StrmRidr said:


> Really? Am I the only one who plays guitar and does not over analyze every aspect of my instruments? You try a guitar, if it feels good to you and you like it, you buy it. Who cares if the neck is not within a 0% tolerance from the specs?


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> 3mm is a ridiculous amount to be off on neck thickness. I just measured all my guitars and they are all spot on in thickness.



You can't expect it to be exactly in a 1/10mm tolerance, and even if it would have been 1 mm more, I've had nothing to complain about... but 3 mm is really totally out of the specification. That's what I wanted to show and prove with the photos.


----------



## mnemonic (Feb 16, 2017)

I wonder how much of the build is CNC and how much is hand work. I wouldn't be surprised if the CNC only cuts the rough shape and they're then shaped by hand. And by hand, I mean a guy with a power sander, and maybe a set of calipers. 

I also wonder if that spec is pre-finish. I have an old Schecter 007 from around 2008, it was just sitting around collecting dust so I decided to strip the finish. Let me tell you, that finish is thick. You can probably lose a mm just in finish if you were to sand it. As far as stability goes, it's been sat with no finish (apart from the headstock and part of the body I haven't got around to sanding yet... Too cold to sit outside with a sander right now) and no strings just leaned against the wall all winter, and the neck is still dead-straight. I was just planning to oil the whole thing. 

If you're dead-set on selling them all, then good luck, but if you want to keep them, I'd suggest sanding them down to the point where you feel comfortable with the thickness. I really doubt you'll have any truss rod issues if you're just sanding it down to what is supposed to be the original spec.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> I wonder how much of the build is CNC and how much is hand work. I wouldn't be surprised if the CNC only cuts the rough shape and they're then shaped by hand. And by hand, I mean a guy with a power sander, and maybe a set of calipers.
> 
> I also wonder if that spec is pre-finish. I have an old Schecter 007 from around 2008, it was just sitting around collecting dust so I decided to strip the finish. Let me tell you, that finish is thick. You can probably lose a mm just in finish if you were to sand it. As far as stability goes, it's been sat with no finish (apart from the headstock and part of the body I haven't got around to sanding yet... Too cold to sit outside with a sander right now) and no strings just leaned against the wall all winter, and the neck is still dead-straight. I was just planning to oil the whole thing.
> 
> If you're dead-set on selling them all, then good luck, but if you want to keep them, I'd suggest sanding them down to the point where you feel comfortable with the thickness. I really doubt you'll have any truss rod issues if you're just sanding it down to what is supposed to be the original spec.



I know, that the necks are finished by hand. But the necks and the fretboards will be cut by given exact measurements. This CNC machine don't works with "make it somewhere between 20 and 26 mm". And no one would like to sand of 3 mm per hand - we are talking about mass production, they are building guitars all day long and know how to save time during the several stages of manufacturing. 

I've had already spoken to my guitar builder. He would have charged 100 Euro each neck for sanding, reshaiping and waxing. 250 Euro each neck for sanding, reshaping and lacquering. So 500 Euro for both guitars, and the overall value will be dramatically decreased after such an operation. Why should I do that? I've bought two guitars which had clearly given specs. If they are not like they should be, it's up to the manufacturer to replace them or give the dealer or customer a refund.


----------



## vilk (Feb 16, 2017)

Endmills/adapters for a milling CNC machine are supposed to be accurate to the _micron_. People talk about CNC total indicated runout in terms of microns or ten-thousandths of an inch, a "tenth". Measurements smaller than the thickness of a human hair, let alone whole millimeters. 

This leads me to believe that they are milling the necks much larger than they need to be and then sanding them down by hand. Only in this case, whoever is doing the hand-sanding was not checking to make sure it's in spec.

And then either QC missed it, or QC found it and they passed it despite it being out of spec.

I don't know that the company should replace the entire guitar, but they should certainly offer credit for a return, and they ought to waive any kind of restocking fee.


----------



## Kidneythief (Feb 16, 2017)

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

But when you first played them did you notice a "difference", or a weird feeling when playing them?


----------



## bostjan (Feb 16, 2017)

I can sort of see both sides of this.

#1 It sounds like their response to you was rude. I'm not sure how much was paraphrased or what you said to them to prompt such a response, but that is the main thing that I find unacceptable. No builder is going to be 100% perfect 100% of the time on 100% of all spec's, but when a mistake happens, the builder should be able to take a stance on how to deal with the complaint respectfully. Period. It doesn't matter if a customer is combative or whatever, you still have to be professional.

#2 I agree that ±3 mm on neck thickness is a reasonably big deal. I wouldn't say it's the end of the world, but it certainly exceeds what I would consider a reasonable tolerance. Maybe these specific guitar had wide tolerances stated, though.

#3 Obviously, the neck felt too thick, which is why you measured it in the first place, but, it is a very fair point to say that it took a pretty long time for you to bring this complaint to Schecter's attention.

#4 I've tried a number of Schecter guitars myself. The ones I tried in the early 2000's did not feel good in my hands, but more recent pieces I have demo'd have felt decent. If the company makes guitars that don't feel good in your hands, though, why the hell do you keep buying them?


----------



## Shask (Feb 16, 2017)

If you like the guitars, then sand the neck down to the desired thickness. I have done this with Ibanez guitars because I like the guitar, but not the neck shape. I sanded them to my preference, and now they are some of my favorite playing guitars.


That being said, their "thin C" is quite chunky in comparison to other brands. I have a 7 string "thin C" that is pretty huge. I also have a "Ultra Thin C" that is very thin.... but still not as thin as an Ibanez.


----------



## cwhitey2 (Feb 16, 2017)

Does anyone know what Schecter's error % tolerance is or what they consider to be an error?


----------



## vilk (Feb 16, 2017)

^I want to know this, too, but keep in mind that just because you order things to be within a certain tolerance, it doesn't mean that a factory might not still try to pass a bad one off on you. Or send it to you without inspecting it or something.


----------



## The 1 (Feb 16, 2017)

I agree that 3mm is a huge difference when it comes to necks. It might not sound like much but you can definitely feel the difference. Difference between an Ibanez Wizard and Wizard II is only 2mm.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Kidneythief said:


> ¯\_(&#12484_/¯
> 
> But when you first played them did you notice a "difference", or a weird feeling when playing them?



Yes I do, but I just thought "ok, there are a little bit thicker, nothing to complain, I will get used to it, just play the guitar" - but that doesn't worked out, because it wasn't 23, 23,5, 24, 24,5 but around and over 25mm! I have never expected that. And if I would have measured the necks right away when I received the guitars, I would have returned them immediately. So I complained just after a few months (not even a half year - I know, that it does matter regarding to terms of service!). I don't have had them since 2015. 



bostjan said:


> I can sort of see both sides of this.
> 
> #1 It sounds like their response to you was rude. I'm not sure how much was paraphrased or what you said to them to prompt such a response, but that is the main thing that I find unacceptable. No builder is going to be 100% perfect 100% of the time on 100% of all spec's, but when a mistake happens, the builder should be able to take a stance on how to deal with the complaint respectfully. Period. It doesn't matter if a customer is combative or whatever, you still have to be professional.
> 
> ...



#1 I had just told them, that I can't handle the necks, that I struggle with playability and what I've found out, when I measured the necks. Simple facts. And I kindly asked, if they could replace the guitars or give me two others out of the same league. A refund had been ok, too. 

#2 I'm pretty sure, that most of these models have thinner necks. 

#3 No, I haven't measured it first. Just after trying to get used to it and failed. After a few months, I measured them and then complained, because I was really shocked and it was clear, that I would never be able to play them comfortably with over 25mm thickness at 12th fret. If I want a boatneck guitar, I will buy one. But I wanted a modern metal guitar for fast playing styles with a "thin C" shape. And yes, I know, that there are people out there, wo could play fast on thick necks - I don't do so. And please notice, they are not a little bit thicker - they are really fat. It takes you a long time to find another mass-produced guitars with such fat necks. Even Gibson 50s necks, which are considered to be really big, are mostly thinner. 

#4 The other Schecters, which I currently own, feel really good. So why shouldn't I keep buying others from them in general?


----------



## Zado (Feb 16, 2017)

> No, I haven't measured it first. Just after trying to get used to it and failed. After a few months, I measured them and then complained, because I was really shocked and it was clear, that I would never be able to play them comfortably with over 25mm thickness at 12th fret.



Mmm so, if I got the whole scenario, you bought the guitars brand new (directly for them or via shop?), tried to get used to them for a few months, and then asked for a refound right?


----------



## Kidneythief (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> I don't have had them since 2015.



Sooo they aren't a fresh buy from a web-store or a previous owner?
Sorry my bad, I thought this was an online purchase wich went really awkward.

If you don't have them anymore then why the thread? 
And I don't want to sound like an *sshole (but probably do), sorry.


----------



## mnemonic (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> I've had already spoken to my guitar builder. He would have charged 100 Euro each neck for sanding, reshaiping and waxing. 250 Euro each neck for sanding, reshaping and lacquering. So 500 Euro for both guitars, and the overall value will be dramatically decreased after such an operation. Why should I do that? I've bought two guitars which had clearly given specs. If they are not like they should be, it's up to the manufacturer to replace them or give the dealer or customer a refund.



Then don't do it if you're worried about resale. 

I was implying you do it yourself. It will cost you like &#8364;12 in oil and sandpaper, and an afternoon, unless you're averse to manual labor.


Edit- regarding the second point, these are 2015 models, so I assume you bought them new and have had them over a year before you even realised this problem? How big of a problem is it, if it took a year to notice? If it's as big an impediment as you say, why didn't you return them over a year ago?


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Zado said:


> Mmm so, if I got the whole scenario, you bought the guitars brand new (directly for them or via shop?), tried to get used to them for a few months, and then asked for a refound right?



I've bought them from a shop. 

I've played only one of them, the other ist brand new. 
The one, which I played, I have played just a few hours, it's in a perfect condition besides very little shiny surface under the strings, where you touch it with your fingers. 

They had that "defects" when I bought them. 

It would not matter, how much I've played them, too. If you notice the defects within the first 6 months, it's your right per law to withdraw the purchase contract and get your money back. I will not discuss, if that is morally ok or not. I've spoken about this to a lawer and he knows his stuff. 

I see, that this seems bad for the dealer - but that isn't my fault but Schecter's. 

For your information: I currently don't own that both guitars anymore. So there is no need to discuss, what I should do with them or not. 
I just wanted to show the necks and how Schecter reacts to such quality control issues and how they treat their customers. 

It's ridiculous to say, that something like this is your own problem, because you have the "wrong" preferences. 

If it's just a gamble game, which neck you get, why does Schecter lists 3 different neck profiles which differ from each other only in 1 mm thickness?


----------



## SwanWings (Feb 16, 2017)

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but play before you buy. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you buy it from an online retailer, RETURN IT. Not that hard, people.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Again: 

I haven't returned them within 14 days, which would have been no problem. 
I wanted to keep them because they sound and look nice, even though the necks felt really big. 
I haven't expected them to be thicker than usual Gibson 50s necks, so I thought by myself, I would get used to it. 
I haven't managed to get comfortable with them each time, I put up that one guitar (the thinner one). 
So I measured the thickness of both after few months to see, how big they really are and was shocked. 
I've only played one of the guitars for a few hours. The other is brand new and was in it's box all the time. 

I don't have the guitars anymore. 

"Why the thread?"
Please read my posts, then you may understand, why.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Kidneythief said:


> Sooo they aren't a fresh buy from a web-store or a previous owner?
> Sorry my bad, I thought this was an online purchase wich went really awkward.



They were a fresh buy from a web-store back in late 2016. 
Yes, this was an online purchase which went really awkward.


----------



## lemeker (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> People who can't read, don't have a clue how wood works, or are straight up trolling...



I can, I do, and I'm not. 

I still stand by my comment/question. I think if he were to go and measure other brands, he would find some of the same issues with another brands production guitar. 

edit: Are the qc issues acceptable? I think that's determined by issue. If one completed well made neck one one guitar was a 3 mm difference than a completely different guitars neck, and someones flipping out. I'd then be inclined to say that its a bit of an over reaction. If there was a 3mm difference on the same neck, then yes, I'd be upset as well.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

lemeker said:


> I can, I do, and I'm not.
> 
> I still stand by my comment/question. I think if he were to go and measure other brands, he would find some of the same issues with another brands production guitar.



This isn't the topic, if there are similar problems with other brands. These are only assumptions from you without any facts. 

I haven't found any guitar of another brand, which has a 3mm thicker neck than it should have. 

And therefore, I don't know, how another company would have reacted when showing them such defects. Maybe they had exchanged the guitars or gave a refund right away?

I just know, what Schecter had delivered (see my photos) and how they are avoiding to solve such problems and treat their customers like idiots. These are facts! 


If you guys are fine with getting 3 mm thicker necks, ok - I'm not. 
But I clearly have to say, that I'm really surprised about that - especially when reading other threads on SSorg, where there has been made a major fuss about much more less flaws (like rough binding, sharp fretends, little glue besides the neck joint aso). 

Maybe this isn't the right place here to talk about guitars and specs. I don't know. 

But as I've said - I had expected those "wise" "just play the damn thing" comments and that ultra-clever theories about magically growing guitar necks made of wood.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 16, 2017)

If you make people uncomfortable, they will contradict you, no matter how right you are. 

It's one of the traditions of this forum.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Petar Bogdanov said:


> If you make people uncomfortable, they will contradict you, no matter how right you are.
> 
> It's one of the traditions of this forum.



Very good comment! Thank you, sir! 

But I guess, there are others, which are quiet and just read the posts regularly. Maybe some people will find my pieces of information useful and make up their own opinion. 

I haven't started this thread, because I need any "help". 
To me the problem is solved, I don't have these guitars anymore. And I guess, the dealer will have to give me a refund - which I'm honestly sorry about - but there was no other way, because Schecter has reacted like I've described.


----------



## bostjan (Feb 16, 2017)

Again, trying to remain neutral here, which should be easy, since I don't play Schecter guitars and I don't know the OP:

#1 Telling the manufacturer that you can't handle how thick the necks are is one thing. Such a statement just sets the manufacturer up for a response like "We don't guarantee against your preferences," you know what I mean? On the other hand, if they said in their catalogue that this neck is 22 mm thick and it's actually 25 mm thick, then it is easy to say that the neck seems to not match the description in the catalogue. Bringing this fact to the manufacturer's attention several months after the purchase is probably not going to do anything to help your case though. It's like sending food back at a restaurant the day after it sat in your refrigerator overnight, because it didn't keep.

#2 I think you maybe didn't understand me. Say I make containers for a client, and I claim that the containers are to be 100 mm x 50 mm x 35 mm. If they receive a batch and measure one container to be 99 mm x 51 mm x 36 mm, is that a problem? Well, it depends on my guaranteed tolerance. If I say that my manufacturing tolerance is ± 3 mm, then, obviously, I lived up to my promise. On the other hand, I might have stated a tolerance of +0, -3 mm, such that the containers could fit into a tight space, or whatever. So, my question is what Schecter claims their tolerance is. Obviously, it will be less than the discrepancies you noted, since they offer other products with small differences between them. Like, coming back to my container analogy, if I stated ±50 mm, yet had several products overlapping that range, it would be a problem for my clients.

#3 Haha, again, I think you misunderstood my figure of speech. I meant that you measured the neck profile as a direct result of your suspicion that something felt wrong, not that you measured it right away. Personally, many of the Schecters I've played felt very chunky, and I've played other Schecters that felt just right, so your observation does not come as any surprise to me.

#4 My point stands so long as you are purchasing guitars from this manufacturer without playing them first. Since it sounds like you don't do that anymore, that's fine.

Still, what I think is the biggest point to take from this is the poor communication you received from the company. There is really no excuse for that, in my opinion; this is a very large company whose business depends on its ability to maintain a positive reputation. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

The part about the thickness of the neck being all over the place from one guitar to another, I bet, many of us already suspected, but it's nice to see some pretty hard data to support that. Thanks for that as well.


----------



## benny (Feb 16, 2017)

+3mm isn't to spec according to their website, but that could be within quality control tolerances for that line of guitars. Judging by the response you got from Schecter, I would say so. 



*Someone mentioned a wizard vs wizard II neck...that comparison doesn't work in this case because those necks are overall different shapes from each other. The wizard II isn't just thicker.


----------



## lemeker (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> This isn't the topic, if there are similar problems with other brands. These are only assumptions from you without any facts.
> 
> I haven't found any guitar of another brand, which has a 3mm thicker neck than it should have.




This is exactly why I asked if you have measured any other brands necks or simply just Schecter. How do you know another company hasn't had the same problems? Have you ever measured different PRS or Jackson? 

you know what.....I hope you find a neck that suits you,and will further your playing.....


----------



## Jeffbro (Feb 16, 2017)

lemeker said:


> I can, I do, and I'm not.
> 
> I still stand by my comment/question. I think if he were to go and measure other brands, he would find some of the same issues with another brands production guitar.
> 
> edit: Are the qc issues acceptable? I think that's determined by issue. If one completed well made neck one one guitar was a 3 mm difference than a completely different guitars neck, and someones flipping out. I'd then be inclined to say that its a bit of an over reaction. If there was a 3mm difference on the same neck, then yes, I'd be upset as well.



Absolutely false. Find me one $800 production guitar that is 3mm off of the listed neck thickness and I'll give you all my guitars. 3mm is the difference between a proper thin C, which most people find on the thick side, and a super wizard, the thinnest neck in production. If you expected one and ended up with the other you would return it.


----------



## Zado (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> If you expected one and ended up with the other you would return it.



Yep, within a couple of days


----------



## Danukenator (Feb 16, 2017)

This had made me very curious about the manufacturing tolerances on the average neck. As others have pointed out, the difference may come from the hand sanding portion of construction. 

I'd be curious to know what the standard deviation is for something like an Ibanez. If your making very thin necks, you can't afford to be over by more than a couple mm from the spec.


----------



## Beefmuffin (Feb 16, 2017)

3 mm difference in a neck profile is huge, idc what anyone says. If a company has a 3mm tolerance (some of these people seem to think this is a possibility) then I wouldn't buy from them. As mentioned before that's a 13% difference. That's ridiculous. Neck profiles can and do affect playability on a huge scale. A lot of guitar players have wrist/hand issues at times and that 3mm difference could make or break a guitar for them....easy. So either they messed up at QC (twice) or they have an unacceptably high tolerance. Being someone who typically orders online due to no good music shops being around me, I appreciate this kind of heads up. People are going to get butthurt anytime you say anything that could be taken negatively about a brand they like and even when they don't know anything about the subject, they will come to it's defense and have something to say. 

That being said, I wouldn't expect them to do anything about it though. If you don't try to return something within a month of acquiring it, it's going to be really hard to convince a company to give you a refund/exchange, so the dudes response doesn't surprise me. I don't agree with it being that way, but that's how this world works.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

I know I might sound like a broken record to some of you, who read my posts - but again: Yes, I have told Schecter the exact measurements, which I've got before I complained. Because you only can discuss FACTS and no "uhm, I think, the necks don't fit to my hands" - I hope, this is clear enough?

And yes, my fault was not to measure it directly after the purchase (and return them immediately) and trust in Schecter's given specs or at least, that the tolerances are not such big. 

I believe, that some of you have no idea, how a 25,28mm thick neck with 84mm circumference near 12th fret feels. But keep on telling me things about "minimal tolerances" which are common and popular - even on other brands (without showing one single example proven with photos). That's really ridiculous. 

It doesn't make sense to me to discuss this further with those people. 

Like it doesn't make any sense to me if a manufacturer offers 3 different neck profiles, which differ in only 1 mm to each other, if the tolerances, which are common, are about + - 3 mm. 
Probably I'm the only one here, who has this opinion, whilst others are happy when ordering a "Ultra Wizard" style neck and getting a 50s Boat-Neck... 


I don't want to discuss, if it's legit to return guitars with defects (which they had at the moment of purchase) after 4 months or not. There is legislation with clear rules.


----------



## lemeker (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Absolutely false. Find me one $800 production guitar that is 3mm off of the listed neck thickness and I'll give you all my guitars. 3mm is the difference between a proper thin C, which most people find on the thick side, and a super wizard, the thinnest neck in production. If you expected one and ended up with the other you would return it.




Perhaps, I can't say for sure. I've never measured the necks on my guitars. I play by feel. If the guitar feels good in my hands and is well made, that to me is more important than whether one neck on one guitar is however mm different on another guitar of the same make and model.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> I don't want to discuss, if it's legit to return guitars with defects (which they had at the moment of purchase) after 4 months or not. There is legislation with clear rules.



Then leverage those rules and shut up.

regardless of how right you are, the way you've conducted yourself in this thread has been petulant, arrogant, and in many instances you've resorted to just being insulting.

It sounds to me like when you made this thread, what you wanted was a pity party and a parade of yes men. You didn't get them and ever since you've been picking fights and people have been picking them back.

If you're that confident in your case, go pick your fight with schecter and take them to court, you've mentioned lawyers and legalities enough times already, put your money where your mouth is instead of bitching on the internet at people who have absolutely nothing to do with the problem.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Feb 16, 2017)

Oh and while we're on the subject of legalities - you quite clearly came here, with your all of 14 posts, intending to take to a public forum about your dislike, and I have no doubt whatsoever that you have gone to other guitar forums to do the same thing, in an attempt to "go public" with this and damage schecter's reputation.

That has legal consequences of its own if you say the wrong thing - especially if you lose the court case you're no doubt ITCHING to get involved in regarding Schecter's specs - I'd advise you stop letting your petulant anger write your posts for you if you don't want that to potentially bite you in the ass - there ARE employees and endorsees of these companies on sevenstring and other forums, and while I doubt say, Keith Merrow, particularly cares to get involved with the heap of angry trouble that is your attitude problem, other schecter employees may well be a different story.


----------



## vilk (Feb 16, 2017)

^I personally appreciate his posting of these measurements and experiences. Your own posts seem more petulantly angry than do moony's.

Thank you moony

+rep


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Feb 16, 2017)

vilk said:


> ^I personally appreciate his posting of these measurements and experience.
> 
> Thank you moony
> 
> +rep



I appreciate being told about quality control issues, but there's being reasonable about it, like when there were threads about the Loomis sigs with uncrowned frets, or comments made when Holloway's custom 8 string had frets that weren't in the right place, and then there's what this thread has been, which is OP picking asinine, childish fights with people who disagree with him. 

Do I think 3mm is too big an error? Yes, yes I do. I think those guitars were built wrong. 

Do I think that justifies the way OP has acted to other people in this thread? No. He's been, at best, indignant and rude to people who have misunderstood what he was trying to say, and at worst, insulting and offensive to people who have disagreed with him.


----------



## vilk (Feb 16, 2017)

I didn't get that from his posts.


----------



## bostjan (Feb 16, 2017)

I think a lot of it comes from the general culture here. Some people take it really personally when other forumites say a guitar is made wrong.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

GuitarBizzare: 

You are able to judge my personal characteristics by reading a couple of posts in an internet forum without knowing me in person? That's very talented, may I ask you if you are a psychologist? 


FYI - I'm a really well known member in a huge German musicians forum - and I haven't lost any word on this topic there, because Schecter isn't very popular there. 

I recommend to you to relax a little bit, don't judging people, you don't know and just concentrate on the facts, which I've mentioned in this thread. 

I haven't insulted anyone - but if someone likes to teach me, it would be nice, if he or she could read my posts before attacking me. Or is that too much? 




bostjan said:


> I think a lot of it comes from the general culture here. Some people take it really personally when other forumites say a guitar is made wrong.



But why? I don't want to offend anyone of you here. 
I've just shared my experience with Schecter in this case.


----------



## Rosal76 (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> But I guess, there are others, which are quiet and just read the posts regularly. Maybe some people will find my pieces of information useful and make up their own opinion.



I find the information you provided about the neck profiles very useful for me. You showed the proof and I believe it. Being a guitarist with short fingers and not liking thick guitar necks, this definitely changes my outlook on Schecter. I don't hate the company and if anything, I certainly won't order one on-line. I'll try the ones I've seen at the music stores and decide from there.


----------



## benny (Feb 16, 2017)

I think the problem many have with this thread and your perspective on the issues are that you kept the guitars so long (trying to get used to the neck profile) before doing anything.

I appreciate that you've brought this info forward.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Rosal76 said:


> I find the information you provided about the neck profiles are very useful for me. You showed the proof and I believe it. Being a guitarist with short fingers and not liking thick guitars necks, this definitely changes my outlook on Schecter. I don't hate the company and if anything, I certainly won't order one on-line. I'll try the ones I've seen at the music stores and decide from there.



I don't "hate" Schecter either. The guys at Schecter's FB were always very helpful and friendly and even this ignorant behaving "tech" hasn't built these particular guitars. 

But I expect a company who is treatening their customers in a right way to say "hey, we don't know what happened here, we are sorry about it, how could we help?" and not "we can't do anything, the guitars are all the same, it's your problem when they don't meet your preferences". 

I think, that is comprehensibly enough. And it's my personal choice if I decide to not play the guitars of such a company any longer. 

Some of you find my pieces of information useful, some do not. That's ok. 

And if some of you like these "GuitarBizarre" guy want to threaten me by talking about "legal consequences", which is laughable in this case, because I just share my experience and prove it with photos, than go for it. I haven't done anything wrong. 

I even told Schecter's FB about that reaction of their "tech" and they preferred to not answer it. 

So I wanted to know, what you guys think about it. 
It's a controversal discussion - as expected - but hey, thank you all for your input here! We could all learn from each other!




benny said:


> I think the problem many have with this thread and your perspective on the issues are that you kept the guitars so long (trying to get used to the neck profile) before doing anything.
> 
> I appreciate that you've brought this info forward.



Yes, I wish I had measured them right away after receiving them. 
And I'm honestly sorry for returning them to the dealer after that time (though it's legitimate, because of the defects). I have apologized for that to the dealer several times and tried to explain, what happened. 

One thing, I could guarantee you: 

If I measured the guitars right away when receiving it and then posting the pictures here and telling the people, that the necks are too big and I'm planning to return the guitars - the same guys, who just are "teaching" me would be the first ones, who had advised me to keep them and get used to the thicker profile, because that few millimeters more weren't a big dealbreaker. For sure!


----------



## bostjan (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> But why? I don't want to offend anyone of you here.
> I've just shared my experience with Schecter in this case.



I have a feeling that, ironically, as an internet forum, our communication skills are pretty poor.

I recall threads going back almost ten years, where someone would say something negative about a Schecter guitar and the thread would devolve quickly. Same goes for Ibanez. None of those users are really around anymore, yet the attitude pervades still.

Sometimes, a new user like you comes along with "data" and "measurements" and "photographic evidence" and "logical arguments," which, apparently, we just can't have around here.  Sadly, we miss out on a lot of nifty new people this way, since most such users don't feel welcome here after an introduction like that.

Then there are your standard "get off my lawn"-type users here who just look for any opportunity to stike up an argument with another user, new or old.

I'm sorry your nice thread had to turn into this.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I'm sorry your nice thread had to turn into this.



I appreciate your kind words very much, thank you! 
But that was not your fault. 

On the internet some people are very rude because they remain anonymous. Schecter, or at least that "tech" knows, who I am, my real name and I'm not trolling here. 

What about that, if Schecter recognizes that they could have handled that better in this case and improve their customer and technical support? Maybe they step up their quality control, too - which seems to be neccessary sometimes - then we all could benefit from it. If everyone accepts such defects, they have no reason to do it better.
So why not discussing it in a big musicians forum? 
If that makes sense?

And I really doubt that any Schecter "fanboy" wouldn't play any more Schecter guitars, such because some guy on the internet got two guitars, which had too thick necks... Come on guys!


----------



## benny (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> Yes, I wish I had measured them right away after receiving them.
> And I'm honestly sorry for returning them to the dealer after that time (though it's legitimate, because of the defects). I have apologized for that to the dealer several times and tried to explain, what happened.



I agree, those guitars were defective. You've got some nice consumer protection laws! 




moony said:


> One thing, I could guarantee you:
> 
> If I measured the guitars right away when receiving it and then posting the pictures here and telling the people, that the necks are too big and I'm planning to return the guitars - the same guys, who just are "teaching" me would be the first ones, who had advised me to keep them and get used to the thicker profile, because that few millimeters more weren't a big dealbreaker. For sure!



It's possible someone would say "keep them!", but I can't speak for anyone else. 




bostjan said:


> I have a feeling that, ironically, as an internet forum, our communication skills are pretty poor.
> 
> I recall threads going back almost ten years, where someone would say something negative about a Schecter guitar and the thread would devolve quickly. Same goes for Ibanez. None of those users are really around anymore, yet the attitude pervades still.
> 
> ...



That's a very well written post and could completely explain this.


----------



## Lemonbaby (Feb 16, 2017)

Quite honestly, I'm surprised by both the catastrophic work from Schecter and the hostility against the TO. The neck thickness is 25% off and even the most basic CNC has a repeatability of 1/100mm so someone must have simply bolt the wrong neck to this body. While I can accept cost/labor intensive details getting a little less focus on a cheap guitar model, the basic woodwork (getting things in shape) is not one of them.


----------



## Rosal76 (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> Maybe they step up their quality control, too - which seems to be neccessary sometimes - then we all could benefit from it.



If anything, IMHO, Schecter should at least change the thickness spec on their official website. If I were a higher up in the company, I would say, "guys, we might have to change the thickness spec numbers we put on the website or shape our guitar necks to match what's on the website". I would think that changing what's on their website would be easier.


----------



## vilk (Feb 16, 2017)

Well really, the bad build on WMI, not Schecter. But the bad customer service is on Schecter.

My understanding is that Schecter basically orders the guitars from WMI, and WMI builds and sends in the guitars made to the Schecter spec. If they wanted to go through the trouble, Schecter _could_ return the out of spec guitar to WMI and get credited, or perhaps they would fix it up and send it back.

Schecter is paying for those different neck options. If they aren't getting them, they're getting ripped off just as much as the end customer.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Rosal76 said:


> If anything, IMHO, Schecter should at least change the thickness spec on their official website. If I were a higher up in the company, I would say, "guys, we might have to change the thickness spec numbers we put on the website or shape our guitar necks to match what's on the website. I would think that changing what's on their website would be easier.



I don't think, that the majority of the 2015 and 2016 Blackjack ATX guitars has 25 mm thickness at 12th fret. And I guess, if they would list 25 mm thickness at 12th fret in the specs, then many customers would avoid buying these guitars. Even their more "traditional" LP-, SG-, EX- and V-style guitars from the "Custom" line have 22 mm thickness at 12th fret.


----------



## bostjan (Feb 16, 2017)

vilk said:


> Well really, the bad build on WMI, not Schecter. But the bad customer service is on Schecter.
> 
> My understanding is that Schecter basically orders the guitars from WMI, and WMI builds and sends in the guitars made to the Schecter spec. If they wanted to go through the trouble, Schecter _could_ return the out of spec guitar to WMI and get credited, or perhaps they would fix it up and send it back.



The company can't stick its name on something without owning the responsibility that it's a good product. If Schecter has WMI make their guitars, and doesn't QC check anything themselves, then double shame on them.


----------



## vilk (Feb 16, 2017)

If it works anything like the industry I am familiar with, it probably goes something like this:
WMI sends Schecter some sample instruments.
Schecter likes it, orders some guitars to their own design and spec from WMI
WMI sends them the samples 
Schecter signs off on it
Now you got WMI cooking up a big ol batch of guitars
Probably a lot of them are already sold before they even show up in the states
Those guitars come off the truck, get checked into stock, and they're on their way to those distributors who are probably calling Schecter every day saying "Where are they!? How much longer!?"

The only way Schecter would even know about a problem is when someone like Moony emails them saying "this thing is out of spec"

It's a tall order to be constantly spot checking all the products you carry. Yeah, it would be a good thing to do probably, but I don't suspect that most people do it. And it would be unnecessary 95% of the time. HOWEVER, when someone alerts you to a problem with a line of products, you should DEFINITELY CHECK THOSE OUT. So you're right, it is on Schecter, if they knew about the problem.

Many OEM pay for the products to be spot checked at the factory.

This whole situation makes me wonder if one of the inspectors on staff is just like a total sh/t employee who just writes his name on anything without even looking.


----------



## theicon2125 (Feb 16, 2017)

vilk said:


> If it works anything like the industry I am familiar with, it probably goes something like this:
> WMI sends Schecter some sample instruments.
> Schecter likes it, orders some guitars to spec from WMI
> WMI sends them the samples
> ...



I think the way it works is Schecter designs the guitar in their factory then sends the CAD files to WMI. 

When I worked in a factory our QC process was very weird to me. I don't know if it's how the process usually works but if it is the same at WMI it would explain why things like this happen. When we would start a new order we would get our packet with the blueprints and stack of materials. We would then assemble the materials in our jig and weld them according to the blueprint. We would then have the first one checked and if necessary correct it. Depending on the particular piece we were making we would then have them checked every 5, 8, or 10 pieces. Not every piece was QCd. Once in a while we would have a piece come back that wasn't within spec for whatever reason, whether it's because of the welder, grinder, or sometimes a problem with the jig where we would have to throw out a large portion of the batch. 

It makes sense for hand made items to have a bit of a screw up in every once in a while, but part of the draw of CNC is that the computer is supposed to get it within extremely low tolerances 99% of the time. 

The way I understand it in the guitar industry stuff is supposed to get the final QC after arriving back in the states. Many brands including Schecter have a "set up to play" sticker that the person initials. Major issues are usually caught at this step. This is where they decide if a guitar should be considered a B stock. I feel like a QC person would notice a 3mm thickness difference, but maybe their checking process doesn't really go that in depth with the neck. Maybe they just check for chips, finish issues, etc. Either way, showing them proof that their specs are off by such a large margin should be grounds for you getting a refund or replacement considering they have lifetime warranty that guards against "defects in materials and workmanship for the life of the original owner". To me the neck being at the wrong spec is an issue of workmanship. 

Working in the field I do now, I have to deal with techs in call centers all the time. Sometimes you'll get people that are great, sometimes you get people that don't know anything, sometimes you get people who are jerks. I would definitely call back again and see if you get someone better. If you don't get someone more willing to work with you I would go up the chain until you find someone who will at least understand your issue. The problem is that they are about 2 years old and I'm sure they'll say you should have contacted them sooner. Or maybe you'll get lucky. 

Thank you for posting this, I definitely feel the community should be aware that there were some tolerance issues in the past and should be on the lookout for them in the future. Hopefully this was isolated to the issues going on at WMI at the time.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

theicon2125 said:


> Working in the field I do now, I have to deal with techs in call centers all the time. Sometimes you'll get people that are great, sometimes you get people that don't know anything, sometimes you get people who are jerks. I would definitely call back again and see if you get someone better. If you don't get someone more willing to work with you I would go up the chain until you find someone who will at least understand your issue. The problem is that they are about 2 years old and I'm sure they'll say you should have contacted them sooner. Or maybe you'll get lucky.
> 
> Thank you for posting this, I definitely feel the community should be aware that there were some tolerance issues in the past and should be on the lookout for them in the future. Hopefully this was isolated to the issues going on at WMI at the time.



I'm not sure but I think, that this tech was the one, who presented Schecters guitars at NAMM 2017, so I guess, he should be one of the more competent members of the Schecter staff. But maybe I'm wrong and there are several guys with that first name. 

I don't know, when in 2015 the guitars were manufactured. But I know the serial numbers and if Schecter would have been interested in them, they could have asked for them. But it seems, that they didn't care about it. 

As I don't own these guitars anymore and waiting for a reply from the dealer who will inspect them, there is no need for me to get in contact with Schecter again. I've tried it twice and they refused to help. So this may be the way it usually goes.


----------



## Jeffbro (Feb 16, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Oh and while we're on the subject of legalities - you quite clearly came here, with your all of 14 posts, intending to take to a public forum about your dislike, and I have no doubt whatsoever that you have gone to other guitar forums to do the same thing, in an attempt to "go public" with this and damage schecter's reputation.
> 
> That has legal consequences of its own if you say the wrong thing - especially if you lose the court case you're no doubt ITCHING to get involved in regarding Schecter's specs - I'd advise you stop letting your petulant anger write your posts for you if you don't want that to potentially bite you in the ass - there ARE employees and endorsees of these companies on sevenstring and other forums, and while I doubt say, Keith Merrow, particularly cares to get involved with the heap of angry trouble that is your attitude problem, other schecter employees may well be a different story.



So what he dislikes schecter, he has proof and good reason to. Anyone in his shoes would dislike schecter. I love my banshees but now I'm gonna take more precautions when buying used schecters.

If you are this mad over this thread, try searching for the kiesel bash threads. I think your head might explode.


----------



## Seventhwave (Feb 16, 2017)

Hard to respond to such a thread without throwing in your own preferences. :\

Not surprised Schecter isn't going to do anything about it. I don't disgaree with them on that either.

I agree that 3mm isn't nothing. The difference between playable and unplayable? If you say it is for you, who is anyone to argue with that? Sell them and find something that is comfortable. So many places offer really good return policies these days for you to check out what you're purchasing pretty thoroughly. Yeah, you forfeit the bargains you can find on used gear. But I would say that's the price you pay if something such as a 3mm difference is a make or break point for you.


----------



## knet370 (Feb 16, 2017)

Lemonbaby said:


> Quite honestly, I'm surprised by both the catastrophic work from Schecter and the hostility against the TO. *The neck thickness is 25% off and even the most basic CNC has a repeatability of 1/100mm so someone must have simply bolt the wrong neck to this body.* While I can accept cost/labor intensive details getting a little less focus on a cheap guitar model, the basic woodwork (getting things in shape) is not one of them.



i was starting to think like this aswell. 3mm is way off since they do use cnc anyway. i doubt they were just being lazy sanding off the extra 3mm. either this or a wrong cad file. cnc's are damn accurate.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Seventhwave said:


> Sell them and find something that is comfortable.



I would never sell such guitars like those with defects to someone. 
And if I describe them with the 25mm necks, I strongly doubt, that anyone would like to buy them. Not at a fair price point. 

But as I've already written, I don't have the guitars anymore, they are back at the dealer. I don't know, what he will do with them. Maybe put them in the store on display and wait for some customers with extraordinary preferences.


----------



## Seventhwave (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> I would never sell such guitars like those with defects to someone.
> And if I describe them with the 25mm necks, I strongly doubt, that anyone would like to buy them. Not at a fair price point.



Honestly don't think *most* people would even notice, or care. Screw-counters for sure, but your average folk? Not likely.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Seventhwave said:


> Honestly don't think *most* people would even notice, or care. Screw-counters for sure, but your average folk? Not likely.



Honestly, if you expect a modern rather thin neck profile and wrap your hands round an over 25 mm thick neck with 84 mm circumference - then you would notice it for sure. 
If you never played more than 3 different guitars before, then probably not.

If you want to get an idea of how big these necks are, you could watch some clips here and skip to the scenes where the guy measures the neck thicknesses: https://www.youtube.com/user/shinemusicnet/videos 
I don't understand anything, what they say, but the numbers are shown on the screen. 
As I've said before, there were only very few guitars, which could compete with those Schecter necks, like some special Gibson CS RIs.


----------



## Seventhwave (Feb 16, 2017)

moony said:


> Honestly, if you expect a modern rather thin neck profile and wrap your hands round an over 25 mm thick neck with 84 mm circumference - then you would notice it for sure.
> If you never played more than 3 different guitars before, then probably not.
> 
> If you want to get an idea of how big these necks are, you could watch some clips here and skip to the scenes where the guy measures the neck thicknesses: https://www.youtube.com/user/shinemusicnet/videos
> ...



Been playing 30+ years, multiple custom guitars from majority of brands as well as boutique builders. Also have had plenty of factory models, as well as Korean models. Schecters included. Never once have I taken the calipers out and measured a neck. Never had a need to. I can play a wizard neck, I can play a LP neck. Doesn't matter. If it feels good and sounds good, I am cool. 

But of course, I wouldn't assume my preferences or or adaptability applies to everyone. I've known/played with a few guys who obsessed over every little detail and measurement. And that's perfectly okay. That's their trip. But that tends to be the minority. And probably also why you've gotten quite a few responses where people think fussing over 3mm is ridiculous.


----------



## moony (Feb 16, 2017)

Seventhwave said:


> Been playing 30+ years, multiple custom guitars from majority of brands as well as boutique builders. Also have had plenty of factory models, as well as Korean models. Schecters included. Never once have I taken the calipers out and measured a neck. Never had a need to. I can play a wizard neck, I can play a LP neck. Doesn't matter. If it feels good and sounds good, I am cool.
> 
> But of course, I wouldn't assume my preferences or or adaptability applies to everyone. I've known/played with a few guys who obsessed over every little detail and measurement. And that's perfectly okay. That's their trip. But that tends to be the minority. And probably also why you've gotten quite a few responses where people think fussing over 3mm is ridiculous.



I respect your point of view. 

I haven't taken out the calipers, too, all the time -until now, because I had to know the facts by numbers, when complaining about too thick necks to the dealer and Schecter. 
It's not, that I can't play that guitars - I was able to, but at certain playing styles, I was just noticeably limited every time, especially round the 12th fret and higher. And it's essential for my playing to feel comfortable there. 

This has nothing to do with being "obsessed over every detail and measurement". I hadn't claimed, if the necks were 23 or 23,5 mm - but not 25 mm. I haven't claimed about other Schecters which had a poor fretwork or sloppy paint jobs aswell. 

Though you were playing over 30 years and had several guitars (like me too...) - who knows if any guitar of those had such a fat neck? They are really rare and not "average". Even not on current Les Pauls. That's what I've shown and I see, that there are people, who simply couldn't imagine, how such a neck feels, because they never experienced it. I've played many newer Les Pauls and never had a problem. Because the necks are thinner. And then, it's easy to just call out, that 3 millimeters more or less in thickness or over 10 mm more or less in circumference don't matter...

But that's not the point at all - because I ordered two guitars with a "thin C" shape as they were described on Schecter's and the dealers homepage and got something totally (!) different.


----------



## rexbinary (Feb 16, 2017)

Thanks for the heads up man. That extinguished any last gas I had for a KM-7. I hope you sell those all off and get some nice guitars to replace them.


----------



## Zado (Feb 17, 2017)

feraledge said:


> If they are Korean, I think 2015 was when WMI had a ton of issues. LTD Deluxes I saw during that period had crazy variation in neck thickness.



The best comment still unnoticed


----------



## Lasik124 (Feb 17, 2017)

Jeez this thread blew up.

I already posted my thoughts on it.

But I'm with the OP, its bad QC and along the lines of false advertising. It's the simple fact its not what the product should be according to its description.


----------



## Simic (Feb 17, 2017)

I can't believe nor understand the people who are bashing the OP in this thread 

3mm difference on a neck is huuuuge to me and a lot of the people on this forum (except those who think that a lacquered neck can expand by 3mm) but we're the minority imo. There are so many people out there who will not check/notice/care about such a thing. I have a friend who considers himself a guitarist and plays with sky high action because thats how 'real men play' and my guitars with thinner strings a low action are 'for girls' (this is a grown up man btw not some kid) . My point being that there are a lot of such guitarists out there so your dealer might not have a big problem moving these 2 guitars. 

Anyway thanks for this info, I tried a KM7 and a KM-II 7 and although I was unimpressed I was always tempted to pick one up at used prices because the specs are just crazy good if you can find one at a good used price but this thread has made me not want one unless I can play it beforehand. 

So yeah very useful info and thread for us who have no decent guitar shops in the vicinity and mostly deal online  thanks


----------



## moony (Feb 17, 2017)

Thank you very much for your kind words and support. 

It's good to hear, that many people understand, why I complained about it and why I'm not that happy with Schecter's reaction, when I told them about the defects. 

But keep in mind, that there are good built-to-spec Schecter guitars out there. 
There is no need to skip your plans of buying one!

Just make sure, that the shop has a good return policy, when buying online - and if you think, the neck is too thick or too thin and just doesn't feel right, then measure it and tell them, if it's way out of spec. 

It's crazy enough, that there are many people who think, that's "normal", that you get + - 3 mm thickness. 

If many people complain about those huge tolerances, Schecter has no other chance then improving their quality control. And that would be good for everyone who wants to buy a Schecter.


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 18, 2017)

A product should be delivered as advertised and you have a right to complain if it is not and are not satisfied with the product. This is simply poor customer service. 

I agree that wood moves with temperature, but for wood to expand 3 mm in any direction and not crack the finish is a bit of a stretch. They probably don't verify these measurements in QC and didn't notice the problem. The best thing they could do as a company from a situation like this is improve their quality assurance procedures.


----------



## Science_Penguin (Feb 18, 2017)

This is some interesting stuff here... And I mean both in terms of what the OP posted, and as a case study for how this forum reacts to things.

3mm is a pretty big difference, and if you don't believe that, take three 1mm guitar picks, stack them on top of each other, then put that up against the back of your guitar neck and try to imagine how much thicker that would be. Not exactly the most scientific way of doing it, certainly won't get you an EXACT measurement, but you'll get the basic idea. Looks like nothing on paper, its not a difference you'll notice just by looking, but your hand probably will.

To be fair to people saying it doesn't matter, this information is probably only useful if you know how many millimetres of thickness you tend to be comfortable with- AKA if you've measured the neck of your favourite guitar, know how it specs out, and are trying to find other necks closer to that. Odds are, if you picked up a Schecter and you liked it, you're not gonna care if its 3mm thicker "than it should be." BUT, if you plan to keep buying from a company, you're probably gonna want better consistency than that, and this shows Schecter might have a bit of a problem there.

As for me, I've never owned a Schecter. I've only tried them and said "Eh, these are nice, but not for me." (Strangely, I think my biggest complaint was always that the necks felt too big for me; maybe now I know why?)


----------



## Forkface (Feb 19, 2017)

the more i read the thread, the more im convinced OP is just a troll and this is professional ....posting. excellent job imo.


----------



## moony (Feb 19, 2017)

Forkface said:


> the more i read the thread, the more im convinced OP is just a troll and this is professional ....posting. excellent job imo.



Just out of curiosity: Why do you think so? 
Because I haven't posted anything before in this forum? Were my pieces of information more useful, if I had a few hundred posts already? 

I've shown you facts. Believe it or not. But it's simply the truth!


----------



## moony (Feb 19, 2017)

Here's another photo - the Het picks are the same size as the Ultex Sharp: 









And here, you see the thick U shape of the necks (look at the shadows at the sides):


----------



## Splenetic (Feb 19, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> That has legal consequences of its own if you say the wrong thing - especially if you lose the court case you're no doubt ITCHING to get involved in regarding Schecter's specs - I'd advise you stop letting your petulant anger write your posts for you if you don't want that to potentially bite you in the ass - there ARE employees and endorsees of these companies on sevenstring and other forums, and while I doubt say, Keith Merrow, particularly cares to get involved with the heap of angry trouble that is your attitude problem, other schecter employees may well be a different story.




You see a big hefty bag of BS on these forums once in a while, but this one wins by far. I literally laughed out loud reading this.


----------



## Swyse (Feb 21, 2017)

Dusting off a vintage one here from back in 2011.







http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=2777221&postcount=24

Seems like some people are either schecter fan boys or don't understand how absolutely massive that neck is vs how it should be. The warmoth 59 round back is 24.384mm at the 12th. This is based on 50s gibsons, not exactly what are known as fast necks, and this is even larger. 

I'm not sure if its reasonable to ask for a replacement or a refund at this point, but it is quite dishonest of schecter to not acknowledge that its clearly quite out of spec when compared to the website. I assume it was some customer service guy who has to answer as many emails as fast as possible and just gave you a canned response instead of actually reading what you were saying.


----------



## moony (Feb 21, 2017)

I've got other Schecters with the same profile ("thin C"), which have much thinner necks and they are in the specs with little tolerances. 
These huge "baseball bat" necks are found rather on older Schecter guitars, which were made before 2010 (I don't know the exact year, when they changed the specs). The two guitars, I've shown, are 2015 ones. 

The guy, who answered, is the one, which you could contact via [email protected], called Jake. The FB guys named him in several posts on Schecter's FB page. 
I guess, he is the same who presented the guitars at the NAMM 2017. Don't know, how many Jake/Jacob called guys are at the Schecter staff, but I assume, that there aren't many. 

He was clearly reading what I was saying, we had a couple of mails and he simply refused to accept, that the guitars were made with wrong specs though I've given him the results of my first measurements - he ignored them and said "they are all made the same" (< I've quoted his statements in this thread), which clearly isn't the truth. 
And he said, he is sorry that the guitars don't meet my preferences, but that is no reason to exchange them or give any refund. And advised me to probably sell them. 

I don't know, if it's legal to copy and paste the whole conversation here, but there's no need, because I've already told you, how he has reacted. 

I informed the Schecter FB guys about his reply to my problem, too - but they preferred to not answer again this time. 

You also will notice, that no Schecter employee joins in here and apologizes for the bad experiences, I've made. 
Why should they? They sell a ton of guitars and if anything is wrong, they refuse to help and ignore the problems. 
If no customer complains, this is the way to go. It's on you customers out there to accept this or not. 

A time ago, I've asked them about one Banshee 6-P and one Hellraiser Hybrid C-1 (both 2014 models if I remember correctly), which were sent to me after a online purchase: 
The Banshee had a slightly angled backwards neck (like on TOM bridge guitars though it's fitted with a Hipshot hardtail) and the saddles of the Bridge were set as high as possible - nearly 45° upwards. 
The Hellraiser Hybrid had an ultra high string action with over 3 mm space between strings and 24th fret (so you can't fix this with trussrod adjustments) - and the Tone Pros bridge was already set as low as possible, so you could lower them anymore (I know, that they are locked with the small screws at the side, that wasn't the problem).
Never ever would those two guitars pass a good quality control. 
I've written Schecter about that and they replied, that this isn't their problem and I should sort this out with my dealer. Great, isn't it?

Yes, I've played several really good Schecter guitars, too and in no way I will say, that they are constantly producing crappy guitars which are way out of specs or have other big flaws - but I will not support them anymore, when they treaten their customers like idiots. And it seems, that they do so. At least to me.


I'm still waiting for a reply from the dealer, where I bought the guitars with the fat necks from. They got them back since one week and said, they would like to inspect them. I hope I'll get a refund. But let's see. I will inform you here.


----------



## stratjacket (Feb 21, 2017)

That was an entertaining read...3mm is a pretty big difference, thanks for the info. But what I really want to know how is you got past that dang headstock.....just joking guys


----------



## Zado (Feb 22, 2017)

> You also will notice, that no Schecter employee joins in here and apologizes for the bad experiences, I've made.
> Why should they? They sell a ton of guitars and if anything is wrong, they refuse to help and ignore the problems.
> If no customer complains, this is the way to go. It's on you customers out there to accept this or not.


You will never see any Schecter employee join here, I guess they kind of dislike this community, and with reason. It was the most hated and moked brand here for a long time for their necks and gaudiness, which is something no brand would laught about or even consider funny.
Then Ciravolo asked me to ask the community what guitars would be considered "the ideal seven string" (possibly price friendly), so they would use the design and features to make it into production...it was unfortunate, cause the answer was unanimous: the new (for the time) KM-7 MKI was the best thing ever. I can understand how pissed they can be if, after so much shiz thrown at them for their products, when said "we can make what you want" the reply is "a guitar you already make".


----------



## blacai (Feb 22, 2017)

I must say, I have owned several schecters
- ATX C-8
- PT
- Elite Banshee 7FR-S

All of them are great guitars. I only found problems with the Elite Banshee because of the sustainiac pickup that doesn't "work" properly with 7-strings because of failed design(I created a post about it with the answers of the creator)

Also played other schecter from friends and I was always very satisfied.
That been said, I don't know the previous Schecter history in this forum, but all actual reviews I read here are always really good.


----------



## Zado (Feb 22, 2017)

blacai said:


> I must say, I have owned several schecters
> - ATX C-8
> - PT
> - Elite Banshee 7FR-S
> ...




Like feraledge said before, 2015 had been an annoying year for every brand involved in WMI, there were topics about the thing (that were leading to scary scenarios iirc). But that's it.


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Feb 22, 2017)

I can't help but think there's more to the story. I remember someone's cat knocked over their guitar and it ....ed up a tuner, and they sent replacement parts free of charge, no questions asked. 

Doesn't really seem like them to just willynilly refuse to help out without legitimate reason. Not that it's impossible, but it's hard to say without knowing both sides of this. Fwiw, I've loved all the schecters I've played. Never measured any of them though, and your measurements are clearly off spec which is indeed cause for concern. 

Good on you to put the info out their regardless.


----------



## moony (Feb 22, 2017)

Zado said:


> You will never see any Schecter employee join here, I guess they kind of dislike this community, and with reason. It was the most hated and moked brand here for a long time for their necks and gaudiness, which is something no brand would laught about or even consider funny.



Ok, I just remembered that angry guy here, who said, that there are Schecter employees in this forum. 
I haven't noticed, that Schecter gets so much "hate" here, only maybe for letting some of very nice prototype models not going into production - otherwise they seem to be popular and well known for a real good performance/price ratio. 

Regarding Schecter's necks, I thought, the common sense is, that the real thick ones are a problem of the past (before 2010). 

Thank you for your posts here!


----------



## Zado (Feb 22, 2017)

moony said:


> Ok, I just remembered that angry guy here, who said, that there are Schecter employees in this forum.
> I haven't noticed, that Schecter gets so much "hate" here, only maybe for letting some of very nice prototype models not going into production - otherwise they seem to be popular and well known for a real good performance/price ratio.
> 
> Regarding Schecter's necks, I thought, the common sense is, that the real thick ones are a problem of the past (before 2010).
> ...


Nowadays the situation is different, they've improved their designs and there's so much variety in shapes, finish and features one can't really argue about the models in their catalogue, but not many years ago it was a nightmare being a schecter fan AND a member here.


----------



## vilk (Feb 22, 2017)

Schecter's reputation on SSO did a total 180 as soon as they ditched the MOP-fest fretboards with teenager inlays and started making extended scale lengths.


----------



## nistley (Feb 22, 2017)

Thanks for posting, interesting problem, insanely off-tolerance. For Schecter the best course of action, which will probably net them profit immediately, would be to refund or replace the guitars. 

I think the advise to sell is still probably the best course of action, if Schecter ignores the problem. What you should do is advertise the actual thickness, because there are actually people out there who prefer such thick necks. I see people say they would buy an RG if wizard neck was thicker, all the time.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Feb 22, 2017)

vilk said:


> Schecter's reputation on SSO did a total 180 as soon as they ditched the MOP-fest fretboards with teenager inlays and started making extended scale lengths.



^Plus the thinner neck. That was a big tuning point for people. You still see the baseball bat complaint a lot from people who aren't up to date.


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Feb 22, 2017)

nistley said:


> Thanks for posting, interesting problem, insanely off-tolerance. For Schecter the best course of action, which will probably net them profit immediately, would be to refund or replace the guitars.



But that would set a precedence... basically allowing anyone to return their Schecter's for replacement or refund. Seems like that would be opening up a can of worms especially given that there are likely a lot more out there with this issue. I'm glad that OP brought it to light but I would guess that [even if more people come out of the woodwork], they will skirt the issue unless it becomes a full-blown damage-control issue. Certainly they would be willing to lose a few customers as long as they feel that this can be swept under the rug... idk. I would guess that the best that any future customers could hope for, would be that Schecter might try to improve quality control. I can't see anything more than that happening.


----------



## nistley (Feb 22, 2017)

High Plains Drifter said:


> But that would set a precedence... basically allowing anyone to return their Schecter's for replacement or refund. Seems like that would be opening up a can of worms especially given that there are likely a lot more out there with this issue.



Good customer support is not what most competitive (not monopolistic) companies call a 'can of worms'. Everyone who actually is bothered enough to contact them about a real issue, which this is, should get their issue resolved, otherwise it is not a business but a scam, scamming the customers.



High Plains Drifter said:


> I'm glad that OP brought it to light but I would guess that [even if more people come out of the woodwork], they will skirt the issue unless it becomes a full-blown damage-control issue. Certainly they would be willing to lose a few customers as long as they feel that this can be swept under the rug... idk. I would guess that the best that any future customers could hope for, would be that Schecter might try to improve quality control. I can't see anything more than that happening.



I can see companies taking this approach, but in this case, they are taking a huge risk of losing many more potential customers than they are losing on replacement guitar. My impression is that Schecter generally makes good stuff, so these can be considered lemons, replacing which is not supposed to bankrupt a decent manufacturer. More over, by going a bit beyond what is decent customer service entails, they might net extra customers. I don't see that happening either, which is unfortunate for Schecter, but that's what I would do if I were in charge.


----------



## bostjan (Feb 22, 2017)

There has been a slow paradigm shift in business practices since the early 2000's or thereabouts. It used to be "the customer is never wrong," then businesses got sick of people playing the system, and it slowly shifted to what has essentially become, "because .... you, that's why."

I bought a washing machine from Sears that literally washed one load of laundry before it .... the bed. It took Sears months and months to send a repair guy. Then the repair guy didn't have the right part. Months and months later, he gets the part, but it doesn't resolve the problem. Then Sears tells me that, because I didn't use Sears brand detergent (I looked for it and does not, never has, and never will exist), I voided my warrantee, so see you in small claims. I buy a Chevy, and literally the first day I had it home, the lock cylinder eats the key. The next day that part is recalled, thank goodness, but, it'll be nine months before the part is in at the dealership and my car is undrivable, so, either buy the part yourself or go hire a lawyer. I had Farmer's auto insurance. Last month, I went to pay my bill to renew, and the payment bounced back to me. I tried calling the number and it's disconnected. Turns out, the company dropped all customers in Vermont, and rather than call or email, sent a letter registered mail. Well, that'd be cool, except they printed the wrong addresse on my envelope (I did verify that they had the correct addresse, so, I guess an employee just ....ed up), so the post office gets a registered letter with an imaginary addresse, and simply returns it to the sender. So, no car insurance and no warning to find another provider before it lapses. I call to complain, and the customer service guy tells me it's my fault that they can't print the correct addresse from a database that has the correct addresse, and is extremely unreasonable over the telephone, when I'm merely requesting a letter from them explaining to my next insurance provider why my auto insurance lapsed for 8 hours while I was sleeping and had no idea... FML.

It's everywhere, not just Schecter. It's total BS, but it's really just the culture of how big companies treat their consumers nowadays. It's not a hard rule, just a new level of low expectations.


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Feb 22, 2017)

nistley said:


> Good customer support is not what most competitive (not monopolistic) companies call a 'can of worms'. Everyone who actually is bothered enough to contact them about a real issue, which this is, should get their issue resolved, otherwise it is not a business but a scam, scamming the customers.



No I know... but the term "good" customer support carries some seriously interpretive wiggle-room. Obviously there's a ton of judgement calls made every day that bring resolve to an individual customers issues, but this is one of those situations that could cost the company a ton of money depending on how many guitars are affected as well as how it's handled. I just think it's a potentially slippery slope for them to admit fault. No doubt that social media is what they're going to keep an eye on. Not disagreeing with anything here but admittance of such a failure could cost big bucks.


----------



## hairychris (Feb 23, 2017)

2mm depth on a 6-string neck is a *massive* difference in feel. I hate the old Ibanez RG carve as too thin for me, but my favourite 6er neck is similar carve but only ~2mm thicker.



EDIT: As a note I had an older C7 Hellraiser for a while and that neck was a baseball bat.


----------



## hairychris (Feb 23, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I bought a washing machine from Sears that literally washed one load of laundry before it .... the bed. It took Sears months and months to send a repair guy. Then the repair guy didn't have the right part. Months and months later, he gets the part, but it doesn't resolve the problem. Then Sears tells me that, because I didn't use Sears brand detergent (I looked for it and does not, never has, and never will exist), I voided my warrantee, so see you in small claims. I buy a Chevy, and literally the first day I had it home, the lock cylinder eats the key. The next day that part is recalled, thank goodness, but, it'll be nine months before the part is in at the dealership and my car is undrivable, so, either buy the part yourself or go hire a lawyer. I had Farmer's auto insurance. Last month, I went to pay my bill to renew, and the payment bounced back to me. I tried calling the number and it's disconnected. Turns out, the company dropped all customers in Vermont, and rather than call or email, sent a letter registered mail. Well, that'd be cool, except they printed the wrong addresse on my envelope (I did verify that they had the correct addresse, so, I guess an employee just ....ed up), so the post office gets a registered letter with an imaginary addresse, and simply returns it to the sender. So, no car insurance and no warning to find another provider before it lapses. I call to complain, and the customer service guy tells me it's my fault that they can't print the correct addresse from a database that has the correct addresse, and is extremely unreasonable over the telephone, when I'm merely requesting a letter from them explaining to my next insurance provider why my auto insurance lapsed for 8 hours while I was sleeping and had no idea... FML.



Owch. TBH most of that crap wouldn't fly here in the UK as we have consumer protection laws against it.

We still get some bad service for sure, but if something isn't fit for use from the start the retailer needs to redress.


----------



## wiretap (Feb 23, 2017)

StrmRidr said:


> Really? Am I the only one who plays guitar and does not over analyze every aspect of my instruments? You try a guitar, if it feels good to you and you like it, you buy it. Who cares if the neck is not within a 0% tolerance from the specs?



Seriously. I mean, might be biased because I like necks of all sizes and usually have little issue adjusting from the thin u's with flat radius of my ESP's to the baseball bats and round radiuses of my vintage spec fenders. But.. This is kinda silly. It's a Schecter from Korea. It's not a high-end elite instrument.


----------



## vilk (Feb 23, 2017)

^but many of them do have a similar number on the price tag as a USA Gibson or Fender or Japanese Ibanez.

Also consider that many people do not really have the option of playing certain guitars in shop, especially when it comes to 7 string guitars. Many people on this website purchase guitars online without ever having touched them. I'd almost say it's the more common method among users here.


----------



## moony (Feb 23, 2017)

The necks should have 22 mm at 12th fret. But they are 25 mm and more!

They are 3 mm thicker than they should be and thicker than most current 50s Gibsons (except some special Custom Shop RIs). 
In no way such huge tolerances are acceptable. 
I hadn't complained, if it was 23 or 23,5 mm - but please not 25 mm!

The most guitar necks are between 20 and 23 mm at the 12th fret, few are thinner, few are thicker. Every mm does count there. You won't find many people who would be pleased with a 25 mm neck. 

And I think, that it doesn't matter, if a CNC machine is located in South Korea, in the USA, in Germany or elsewere in the world. They work the same everywhere. They just built the wrong necks for that guitars. 

I have bought two guitars, as they were described on the dealer's and on Schecter's website - with 22 mm neck thickness at 12th fret. And I got these huge necks guitars, which is clearly a defect. I think, those guitars are nearly unsaleable and I have no clue, why they left the WMI factory.


----------



## 70Seven (Feb 23, 2017)

Read through the thread quickly.. To the OP: it doesn't sound like you bought the guitars and started measuring it right away and decided you weren't satisfied.. Since they are 2015 I assumed you had them for a while, played them and liked them enough that you kept them. You were satisfied with the feel and tone.. Then, a while(years?) later decided to measure, noticed it was off from the specs on the site, got some rude customer service and now don't like the guitar.. But its the same guitar that you liked just minutes before you started measuring it. 

Put away your measuring tape, play the guitar. The Blackjack ATX C-1 is a cool guitar, I wound't mind having one myself (as a lover of Ibanez thin necks).


----------



## moony (Feb 23, 2017)

Maybe you should read the thread... no offense, man, but I've stated it a few times, what happened.

Edit: 

Ok, once again for all the ones, who are just joining in...

I've bought the guitars online in the second half of last year. They looked nice and sounded nice. 
I've immediately noticed, that the necks are really chunky but haven't measured them at this time. 
My thoughts were "these are nice guitars and the necks won't be too thick, because specs says, they are 22 mm, I just will try to get used to them, shouldn't be a problem". So I've played the one with the slightly thinner neck a few times, the other one was stored unplayed in it's box as a backup. 
Every time, I grabbed any other guitar, the others feeled so much more comfortable, because they had "normal" necks. 

Yes, the necks on the Schecters are not "normally" sized, they are really fat! Bigger than most 50s Gibsons. On the first frets, there wasn't a problem, but around the 12th fret and higher, I struggled every time. My hands just don't fit to that baseball bat necks. 

So I decided to measure them to get clear numbers of thickness and was shocked with the results. And then, everything made perfectly sense. I will never get used to that necks and I would never have bought a guitar with 25 mm neck thickness (if they were described as that). 

This is clearly a defect, way out of specs and nearly unsaleable in my opinion. 
I complained about that to the dealer within the first half year after purchase - in this time you've got the right to withdraw the purchase contract and get a refund. I'm honestly sorry about that for the dealer, who just sold me guitars, which he has ordered for me. But what should I do? I can't sell them on my own, because I assume no one would like to buy them with that fat necks and why should I do so and lost money? I've bought them as they were described and these tolerances aren't acceptable. 

I've contacted Schecter and they refused to help, said "the guitars are all made the same" and ignored the facts. They didn't want to exchange them or give a refund. Nothing. They said, that's all a matter of my personal preferences and if I don't like the guitars, I should sell them. 

After such a ignorance and disrespectful behaviour, I decided to post all this here at SSorg, because I wanted to know, what you guys think about that. 
I expected comments like "just play the guitars, you'll get used to it" - but I tried! I really really tried! I'm pretty sure, that some of you never had felt such thick guitar necks and can't imagine, how big a 3 mm difference in neck thickness really is. 

My fault was not to measure the necks right away, when I got the guitars. Then I would have returned them instantly, for sure! 
But if I would have measured them right away, posted the results here - then there would have been the same guys, which were telling me "just play the guitars, you'll get used to them." 
So either way, the best thing, I could do, was to return the guitars within the first half year and ask for a refund, because that's my right. 

I'm still waiting for a reply from the shop, the dealer has got back the guitars since one week.


----------



## LeftOurEyes (Feb 23, 2017)

Haha I can't believe that this thread is still going on. Yes the guitars are out of spec and yes that was their fault, but I wouldn't try holding my breath for a big corp in America to not treat their customers like idiots though. There are whole markets started and run on that philosophy. This is just one of those times where you gotta learn from the experience and move on.


----------



## moony (Feb 23, 2017)

Yes, if every customer says "uhm, they sold me crap and then treatening me like an idiot, when I complain about it - but hey, that's ok and I'm perfectly fine with that", nothing will change. 

So it's up to you, dear customers, to do not accept every sh** from the big companies - though I think, Schecter is rather a small company compared to some others. 

And my apologies for reposting here several times - but it seems, there are people who still haven't read the thread but posting new comments, so I feel like I have to clarify things again and again. 

*Please read the thread before posting*, then I don't need to explain things again.


----------



## 70Seven (Feb 23, 2017)

delete post..


----------



## moony (Feb 23, 2017)

I can't sell them, because they are back at the shop, where I bought them from. 

And I wouldn't had offered them for sale without mentioning that fat necks because I don't think, that there were many people out there, who would like those necks. I'm not cheating with other people. 

The dealer should give me a refund and return the guitars to Schecter's distributor and get a refund himself. If the dealers send back such guitars, Schecter had to improve quality control. 

Beside that, it's very interesting for me to see, how different opinions are about getting products with defects. Some seem they couldn't care less about that and would accept that as "bad luck" - but many others seem to agree with me.

Edit: now you've deleted your advise to sell them without mentioning the fat necks... so this post may be obsolete.


----------



## LeftOurEyes (Feb 23, 2017)

moony said:


> But if I would have measured them right away, posted the results here - then there would have been the same guys, which were telling me "just play the guitars, you'll get used to them."



I'm not defending companies that make a defective product. I'm just simply stating that you should have not worried what other people would have told you to do and just send it back sooner since you obviously don't like thick necks and it would have never been something you would have just gotten used to.

I do understand that it is always easier to look back at something and see what you should have done. Thats why I said this was a learning experience though. Next time check sooner and send them back quicker if there is a problem and things will probably be a lot smoother.


----------



## moony (Feb 23, 2017)

You're right and I will do so in future. 

If I had measured them immediately it wouldn't have been a problem to return them within the first 14 days. But my hands aren't calipers so I've trusted in the specs or at least in some minor tolerances.


----------



## wiretap (Feb 23, 2017)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that even with CNC machines, necks have to be dealt with hands-on? Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like I've heard that a ton. No two necks with the same supposed "profile" have ever felt the exact same to me across many brands.


----------



## mnemonic (Feb 23, 2017)

I like thick necks, my late 90's Schecter neck thickness is similar to my les Paul, come at me bro


----------



## moony (Feb 23, 2017)

wiretap said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that even with CNC machines, necks have to be dealt with hands-on? Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like I've heard that a ton. No two necks with the same supposed "profile" have ever felt the exact same to me across many brands.



Yes, but no one makes a 26 mm neck by CNC to sand off 4 mm by hand, if that makes sense. 



mnemonic said:


> I like thick necks, my late 90's Schecter neck thickness is similar to my les Paul, come at me bro



I've tried several older Schecter guitars with thick necks, they are fine. But not quite thick as those two. I also never had a problem with current Les Paul necks, because they aren't that fat.


----------



## LeftOurEyes (Feb 23, 2017)

Necks and fretboards are cut on cnc machines most of the way, just some minor cuts or shaping is needed after that. Sanding them down to get them completely finished after they are glued is the big hands on part for production usually.

All kinds of things could have created this problem, but it sounds like a couple of machines were just set up slightly off during production. Some of the cnc machines, or maybe a couple of planner machines who knows.

It sounds like from what previous posters said, World Musical Instrument Co the company that actually built the guitar (and quite a few other brands guitars as well) had a lot of problems in production that year/s. So to me I would just think a couple of machines were slightly off and by the time they noticed it, too many of them had already been out to market.


----------



## 70Seven (Feb 23, 2017)

moony said:


> Edit: now you've deleted your advise to sell them without mentioning the fat necks... so this post may be obsolete.





Oh sorry haha, you must have been typing while i deleted my post. I was reading it again and felt like deleting it. Started disagreeing with my own post..


----------



## mnemonic (Feb 23, 2017)

The gossip surrounding WMI in 2015 was pretty juicy, ormsby had a big long post about it.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream (Feb 24, 2017)

I have a 2013-2014 C7 (/w baseball bat neck), and it's one of my best guitars, including my Carvin DC700. I find the neck thickness/profile almost identical to the Carvin, but never heard people complaining about DC700 neck (pre-Kiesel era) as much as they did for Schecter. Could be a matter of economics, probably as C7 was cheaper and as a result more popular. 

*To OP:* you are absolutely right in being mad though since the specs differ dramatically from advertised. You should have returned it if you found it uncomfortale and leave this issue for the dealer to take it up with Schecter.


----------



## moony (Mar 5, 2017)

*Update: 

*Just wanted to let you know, that I've just got an e-mail to my notification, that the dealer has given me a full refund. 
He has measured the guitars again and agrees with me, that they are way out of specs. 
I don't know, what will happen to the guitars. The dealer told me, that Schecter won't take them back. So maybe they are on display at the stores, now for lower price. 

If I were a dealer, I would check every single Schecter, which I've ordered and got delivered right away after receiving them to avoid sending out guitars with defects to the customers and for having the possibility to return them to Schecter or the distributor immediately.


----------

