# Odd Time Signatures



## Psychobuddy (Sep 16, 2009)

Okay here's my problem I don't know how to count odd time signatures, specifically 8th note time signatures like 13/8, 7/8, 9/8 etc...In 4/4 [or any /4 time, eg 3/4, 5/4 etc...] there is a system 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a, get it. But as far as I know there is no counting system for an 8th not signature. Let me ask you guys a few questions that specifically deal with my problem: 
1) How do I count 16th notes in the 8th note time signatures, would it be 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & etc...basically using two of those to represent 1 e & a?

2)How do I practice it with a metronome, my metronome has a setting where it plays 8th notes but it seems very odd, do I just have to get used to it, or is there something I'm missing?

3) Last one if anyone could give me any examples of odd time signatures that I could work on that would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance, and if any of my questions or explanation of my problem don't make sense please ask and I will try to clarify what I meant. Bye Bye


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## cycloptopus (Sep 16, 2009)

I will count whatever the lowest common denominator is. So if you are trying to get a feel in 1/4 notes with a studder that ends in an 1/8 note, then just count the number of 1/8 notes and set your metronome to that. Essentially that is your time signature anyway, and it's really about the accents. Understand that the beat you want may still emphasize the 1/4 note accents, and the metronome may change the feel a bit. But for effective practice you kinda have to do what you have to do. 

Someone else may have a better way to do this, but it works for me.

*edit* -...and I re-read your question and realize I may not have answered it correctly...or at all. 1) I'd just count it like you do 8th notes. 1&2&... Basically because the 8th note is your most basic element here. I think you could essentially rename your time signature to 1/4 notes, (i.e. 11/8 to 11/4) and double the metronome speed to get it as fast as you are feeling it, and then you'd be counting it properly. 2) see above. I personally don't use those metronome 8th note accents because it doesn't cut it for the odd time signatures for me. 3) 11, 7, 5, 23 are all cool to me. You could just make up a 4/4 riff tag an eight note on it, rename the time sig to 9/8, double your metronome speed to line up with the 8th notes, and practice with the 1/4 note accents in your mind. Of course by this logic you'd have to count unorthodox so you could make it 9/4 (calling the previous 8th notes 1/4 notes) keep the metronome the same, but now your accents are on the 1/2 notes...uh... 

It's probably easier to just say 1&2& even though your counting the 1/8 notes as the 1 2 3 etc.. and the '&' is your 16th notes.

ok, now how confusing is my response?


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## abysmalrites (Sep 16, 2009)

The question was a rather good one. Cycloptopus, your response was kind of confusing, especially when you get into the part about 9/8.

Psycho, if you have (or even if you don't, you can download) either guitar pro or powertab and set the time signature to something off, like the aforementioned 9/8. After that, just loop it and you've a metronome for the time sig.


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## cycloptopus (Sep 16, 2009)

abysmalrites said:


> Cycloptopus, your response was kind of confusing, especially when you get into the part about 9/8.


I know. Once I got into it I realized it was getting too crazy but I couldn't back out. My bad, it makes sense to me, but I talk too much. 

I think the point I was trying to get at is:



the number of beats you want to play, is the number you want to set your metronome to. 


figure out the lowest common denominator, whatever note value that the riff ends with, and set the metronome to that.




The time signature is just how you notate it. 

Count comfortably. I use 1&2& often because it's easier on my brain.

Look at a Charlie Parker transcription and you notice that most of what he's doing is notated in 8th notes...at like 200 bpm. So he is ripping and you might think he is playing all 16th notes and 32nd notes, or even 64th notes. But it's notated in 8th notes with a couple of 8th note triplet runs and the occasional 16th note run mixed in to the ridiculously fast stuff he's playing. The key is that the suggested metronome speed is way fast, but looking at 8th notes is easier on the eyes than a whole bunch of 64th notes. 

I hope this helps clear my nonsense up a little. Damn I can't seem to get the KISS principle...Keep It Simple Stupid (the stupid is directed at me!)


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## Cynic (Sep 16, 2009)

A) The eighth note is the beat, so 16th notes would be the equivalent of eighth notes when it comes to counting. (1 & 2 &...)

B) Turn on the eighth notes and make sure that there isn't any metric stress or accents on any of the beats. (All the clicks should sound the same)

C) There are different combinations of counting asymmetrical time signatures.

For 5/8:

1,2,1,2,3
1,2,3,1,2

For 7/8:

1,2,1,2,1,2,3
1,2,1,2,3,1,2
1,2,3,1,2,1,2


Does that answer your questions?


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## Psychobuddy (Sep 16, 2009)

Hey guys...you have all answered my question, it makes a lot of sense now thank you. Cycloptopus I have noticed that about Charlie Parker, I'm working my way through the Omnibook right now, it blows my mind. Thanks again everyone.


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## TonalArchitect (Sep 16, 2009)

For the 1 e & a style of counting, you can use that system, but it will have "stuttered" parts. So 7/8 would be counted "one and two and three and four," that is, just like 4/4, but without the last eighth note. 

Another system of counting is the Carnatic one (South India), which goes like this 

3 Ta Ki Ta
4 Ta Ka Di Mi
5 Ta Ka Ta Ki Ta
6 Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki Ta ("Three" twice)
7 Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi (3 + 4)
8 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Di Mi (4 twice)
9 Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ta Ki Ta (4 + 5)

It might look scary and alien, but it's much more flexible and less "Oh God, am I on or off the beat!?" than is ours, since it counts in groups regardless of where it falls relative to the measures. 

But counting is, I think, good as a stage from which you will transition. Unless you are an orchestral/choral musician who doesn't have tons of time to memorize all your music, then take the time to learn and feel the passages.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 17, 2009)

TonalArchitect said:


> For the 1 e & a style of counting, you can use that system, but it will have "stuttered" parts. So 7/8 would be counted "one and two and three and four," that is, just like 4/4, but without the last eighth note.
> 
> Another system of counting is the Carnatic one (South India), which goes like this
> 
> ...


You left out a beat on 7; it should be Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi.

The idea behind this is to consider every meter in groups of twos and/or threes (the Carnatic system of counting accounts for fours, but I think it's a bit redundant). 9, for instance, can be 3+3+3, or 2+2+2+3 (and any variation thereof, like 2+3+2+2).

As for counting, if the beat unit is an eighth note, then 7/8 would be counted 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. The sixteenth note would be represented by "&". So, straight sixteenth notes in 7/8 would read thus: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &


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## Psychobuddy (Sep 17, 2009)

Hey thanks Tonal for the Carnatic system I've heard of it before, but I've never seen it explained. It makes sense to me. And thank you Mike for restating what he said, oh and for backing up what others have said about counting using #'s and &'s. Oh I have another question for you guys, how do you count sixes, sevens, 32nd notes, nines etc...now I think that the Carnatic system may work, at least that's how I see it working...but how do you count it? Do you count 123456, 223456, 323456, 423456...if you get what I mean or do you use a different way? Sorry for my seemingly, for lack of a better term, nooby questions, I have been playing for quite awhile these are just things that I have always wondered about that I would like to have cleared up. Thanks again guys. Bye Bye


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## cycloptopus (Sep 17, 2009)

Just to add to the craziness... 

Some music notation will break an odd time piece into two or more measures of different time signatures. So something that could be notated in 7/4 will be broken into a measure of 4/4 and a measure of 3/4 back to back. This is done to create the feel, and accent the proper accents. So you would count- 1234,123,1234,123 etc. Or sometimes you'll see something like 7 measures of 4/4 with a 3/4 for the 8th measure and then it goes back to 4/4 and whatnot...you know, if you want to do a 31/4 time or something... 

The Omnibook


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## TonalArchitect (Sep 17, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> You left out a beat on 7; it should be Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi.


 
Thanks, man. That's what happens when I don't proofread. 



Psychobuddy_101 said:


> Oh I have another question for you guys, how do you count sixes, sevens, 32nd notes, nines etc...now I think that the Carnatic system may work, at least that's how I see it working...but how do you count it? Do you count 123456, 223456, 323456, 423456...if you get what I mean or do you use a different way?



I haven't counted 7's or 9's without the Indian system, but 6's I would count "one uh let and uh let | two uh let and uh let" etc. 

One reason I like the Indian counting syllables is because Ta Ka Ta Ki Ta is easier to count (even/especially internally) than 1 2 3 4 5.



cycloptopus said:


> Just to add to the craziness...
> 
> Some music notation will break an odd time piece into two or more measures of different time signatures. So something that could be notated in 7/4 will be broken into a measure of 4/4 and a measure of 3/4 back to back. This is done to create the feel, and accent the proper accents. So you would count- 1234,123,1234,123 etc. Or sometimes you'll see something like 7 measures of 4/4 with a 3/4 for the 8th measure and then it goes back to 4/4 and whatnot...you know, if you want to do a 31/4 time or something...
> 
> The Omnibook



This can be a useful viewpoint, but remember that shifting between 3/4 and 4/4 can be different than staying in 7/4. It's all context, though, so whatever works. 

Part of this is the Western view of rhythm in which meter is more than just time span (e.g. 3/4 and 6/8 are viewed as being different, even though their duration is the same). Bela Bartok had a piece notated in (seriously) 3+3+2/8 time, because it had the Q. Q. Q rhythm. Though, to me, that is useless hairsplitting, but C'est la Vie.


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## cycloptopus (Sep 18, 2009)

TonalArchitect said:


> This can be a useful viewpoint, but remember that shifting between 3/4 and 4/4 can be different than staying in 7/4. It's all context, though, so whatever works.
> 
> Part of this is the Western view of rhythm in which meter is more than just time span (e.g. 3/4 and 6/8 are viewed as being different, even though their duration is the same). Bela Bartok had a piece notated in (seriously) 3+3+2/8 time, because it had the Q. Q. Q rhythm. Though, to me, that is useless hairsplitting, but C'est la Vie.


Cool. I like to put the options out there, and i hear you on the spitting hairs thing. I think it is always most important to realize that notation is a way to communicate using the language of music. So it all comes back to feel and how you interpret it. So if counting 123,1234 works for the feel of what the groove is, then do that. If counting 123,12,12 works for the feel you want, then do that. I think when Bartok notates something 3+3+2/8 he has something very specific in mind for the accents, and wants to communicate that to whoever reads his music. It seems the note value works out to be in common time, but the pulse would appear to be a 3/8 feel with a studder. So when it comes to the metronome and practicing something up to speed, one may have to keep in mind these accents while practicing to a boring, non-dynamic click that may not be ideally representing the vibe you are going for.


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