# I need to UNDERSTAND theory.



## Zepp88 (Jul 26, 2008)

I've been having a lot of trouble getting an understanding of music theory, for me it's in one ear and out the other. I think that maybe it has to do with my very very poor grasp of Mathematics, my brain just doesn't work that way  I'm much better at understanding things like language, and history etc...but that part of learning has always been very difficult for me. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't music and mathematics correspond in that way?

I understand basics, but lets assume that I don't. I really need a book or a DVD, or maybe both, that teaches theory in a way that somebody like me can understand it. I have The Guitar Grimoire - Scales and Modes, which is a great reference, but it's almost worthless to me unless I have a full understanding of what I'm looking at, and why and how these theories work. 

I'm sure that this scenario has happened with other musicians as well, so there must be something out there that I can read.

Thanks guys!


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## MattyCakes (Jul 26, 2008)

hrmm thats funny, because theory is more like language than mathematics. all theory is... is a way to communicate to others, what the fuck is going on


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## Rommel (Jul 26, 2008)

This might help.... Stage Six - Modal Theory


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## HammerAndSickle (Jul 26, 2008)

I think intervals are the main starting point. Scales come from them, chords come from them, progressions to an extent are based on them...

So learn intervals


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## Rachmaninoff (Jul 26, 2008)

Music theory becomes incredibly easy when you start thinking about it as a _practical_ stuff instead of a _theorical_ stuff. For example, when you are studying things like inversions, just pick up your guitar and play the inversions as you read them. It helps you to fix all the stuff.


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## Desecrated (Jul 26, 2008)

Amazon.com: Music Theory for Guitarists: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know But Were Afraid to Ask: Tom Kolb: Books

Cheap and easy to use, it will give you a good overview, you still need to study more to get really deep, but this will definitely be an eye-opener for you.


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## Luan (Jul 26, 2008)

Rather than reading, get a good teacher, learn classic theory, or jazz theory depending wich fits you better.
That is what worked for me, now I can read from books and understand everything clearly.


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## HammerAndSickle (Jul 26, 2008)

For me, everything I've learned has been self-taught. I have a guitar teacher in high school who I consulted with occasionally, but actual in-class instruction was never theory-based. Lemme see if I can help you a little...

Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net is a good one. Follow the lessons through. If you can't understand one, consult another reference before moving on. You need to understand earlier concepts to get more advanced ones. I only went up to 7th chords, because the minor cadences weren't important to me then (I've since learned them). Also of use are the scale, chord, and interval trainers on the site. Staff paper can be printed there, too. For practice.

The Crusade. Part I | Guitar Columns @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com is also a good reference. It's a series written in a lighthearted fashion, and covers many similar ideas to the above, but is more guitar centric. The other parts of the series can be found by searching "crusade" under columns.

Finally, _The Everything Music Theory Book_ was one of the first ones I used. It's a bit more piano-centric but also has Tab to help out guitarists. The CD was also helpful. Each exercise in the book corresponds to a track on the CD (some of which are just one note) which helps make sure you know you're right.

Those are my personal references. They might not work for you, but they're easy-access, easy-understand pieces of work.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 26, 2008)

MattyCakes said:


> hrmm thats funny, because theory is more like language than mathematics. all theory is... is a way to communicate to others, what the fuck is going on



You know you're right, and I've never actually approached it this way, so some reason I always never understood much of it.

But, I just picked up "Music Theory for Dummies" and I like the approach, it seems as though the book was written for a person like me 

Thanks for the other suggestions guys, I'll be sure to look into that stuff as well!


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## budda (Jul 27, 2008)

I'd get a teacher that can actually explain theory in a way that you understand what is being stated.

in music class in highschool, theory work killed me - my playing (on clarinet mind you) was decent.

i asked about modes on gnet, and they were explained to me in such a way that i actually made sense, and discovered how it worked for myself and it kind of "clicked" - i dont remember anymore because i didnt keep it polished, if i know how to play modes then im not aware of it..

I'm taking *music lessons* this year from a buddy of mine. he's basically going to teach me music theory applicable to guitar, so that i can memorize the fretboard and if i hear something in my head, i'll know exactly where to go to play it.

its all about the practicality and presentation of information when it comes to learning theory, i think.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 27, 2008)

Well, I like how this book is written. Right now I'm in all of the rhythm and time signature stuff, which I understand, but I'm reading through it anyway to reinforce that understanding. I want to learn about music theory as a whole and not just how it pertains to guitar, I want a much broader understanding of music theory.

A teacher would definetly help. My co-guitarist Nate knows a lot about theory, and IIRC he took some classes at some point...knows his stuff so I use him as a resource all the time  but, I like having the books to read on my own to strengthen the concepts, I'm a hands-on type of learner, but I don't necessarilly respond much to I guess....social learning? I was always the kid that would rather work on a project alone 

So, far I'm enjoying this book.


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## budda (Jul 27, 2008)

which book, sorry? *i know im lazy, but its 3:15AM..*

IMO if you learn theory and apply it to something you're familiar with, you will have a MUCh easier time applying it to other instruments in terms of playing them - theory is theory for music, not instruments.

all the kids who took formal lessons on piano killed highscool music, i was the struggler who could sit down and learn songs by ear


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## Zepp88 (Jul 27, 2008)

I played the trumpet in middle school, learned rhythm, how to read notation, and not much else 

I wasn't bad at the time, but I suck gophers balls now.

The book is "Music Theory for Dummies"


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## Desecrated (Jul 27, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> I played the trumpet in middle school, learned rhythm, how to read notation, and not much else
> 
> I wasn't bad at the time, but I suck gophers balls now.
> 
> The book is "Music Theory for Dummies"



Dude you need to start playing trumpet again, we could start an online ska-band. Think of this, horror-doom-ska-industry-metal


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## Zepp88 (Jul 27, 2008)

Desecrated said:


> Dude you need to start playing trumpet again, we could start an online ska-band. Think of this, horror-doom-ska-industry-metal



That sounds epic 

My stepbrother is/was/ihavenocluewhatgoesoninhislife using it now.


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## Desecrated (Jul 27, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> That sounds epic
> 
> My stepbrother is/was/ihavenocluewhatgoesoninhislife using it now.



Bring him along to, we need snacks for the ride.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 27, 2008)

Excellent.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 28, 2008)

Interval training:
Perfect fifth - Star Wars
Tritone - That interval you can't sing
Minor sixth - That other interval you can't sing that isn't a tritone


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## Naren (Jul 28, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> Interval training:
> Perfect fifth - Star Wars
> Tritone - That interval you can't sing
> Minor sixth - That other interval you can't sing that isn't a tritone



I don't think that's very helpful.  Nor is it going to suddenly grant you an understanding of music theory.


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## TomAwesome (Jul 28, 2008)

Also, tritones and minor sixths are just as singable as perfect fifths. Just go up or down a half step from the fifth depending on which you're going for 

And yeah, not too helpful


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## Luan (Jul 28, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> Interval training:
> Perfect fifth - Star Wars
> Tritone - That interval you can't sing
> Minor sixth - That other interval you can't sing that isn't a tritone


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## Desecrated (Jul 28, 2008)

SchecterWhore said:


> Interval training:
> Perfect fifth - Star Wars
> Tritone - That interval you can't sing
> Minor sixth - That other interval you can't sing that isn't a tritone



Music theory 101: professor Yoda room 502


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## stuh84 (Jul 28, 2008)

I learnt theory from the Metal Method series of guitar lessons, it was put in a way that just seemed so straight forward to understand, that I've ended up teaching it to other people since.

They might be worth a look if you get stuck, hell I can go through it with you sometime if you really down on it, I'm not adverse to it.


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## thedonutman (Jul 28, 2008)

What do you want to get out of learning theory? Improvisation skills? Compositional skills? The ability to show off at dinner parties?

Improvisation and composition has more to do with your ear training and your knowledge of scales. If you want to know what notes fit over what chords and what key changes work then that is a combination of knowledge and ear skills.

I don't think being good at maths helps that much, I'm pretty good at maths and I didn't find theory particularly easy. IMO it isn't all understanding, a lot of it is just knowledge and the application of it. eg. Knowing that G major has a key signature of one sharp (F) and how that's written on a stave doesn't require much understanding, but more remembering. Whereas being able to use G major effectively in a composition and being able to transpose something from E major to G on manuscript paper might require more understanding of how the keys work.

I am a pianist and I had to take a theory exam to do practical exams above a certain grade. So I didn't learn theory from a guitar point of view. Perhaps you will find it easier if you found a classically oriented theory book and then tried applying it to guitar. I have this book, but I don't know if I can recommend it, because I learned theory so I could pass that exam.

Can you read music (is. bass/treble clefs)? you'll probably want to be able to learn that first.

tl/dr version: 1. Figure out what you don't understand and maybe ask about it. 2. Maybe get a book that doesn't relate to guitar directly first.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 29, 2008)

It definitely helps if you know how to notate music, or at least understand notation, so if you don't know bunk, that's a good place to start, but it's not necessarily required. But the question is: why do you want to understand music theory? Rather, what theory or theories do you want to understand? Plenty of people get by using power chords in a meter of 4, with no knowledge of chord progressions or song structure. Others really get into it and use their knowledge to change meter and key every other measure. Arnold Schöenberg wanted to escape tonality (that is to say, he wanted to write pieces that did not conform to any key, and had no sense of resolution), and tried to use the timbre of the performance instrument(s) to evoke emotion rather than the composition itself, so he invented a means to do this by ascribing rules in a "twelve tone" system in which each chromatic tone in an octave must be used once before any repetition can occur. The result sounds like hell, but you can't discern any resolution from the music, so he accomplished what he set out to do. In the Western world, however, we are accustomed to tonality and harmonic cadence. Only music theory students do atonality anymore. Ask yourself where you want to take your music. Knowing the history of music throughout the world helps to build an understanding of what music offers, but most music history classes assume that you have some education in music theory, and I don't know of any books that are comprehensive in this regard.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 29, 2008)

TomAwesome said:


> Also, tritones and minor sixths are just as singable as perfect fifths. Just go up or down a half step from the fifth depending on which you're going for
> 
> And yeah, not too helpful



But the tritone is evil and should never to be played! Heathens!!! Heathens!!!!


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## daybean (Jul 29, 2008)

doesnt know what anyone is talking about, i do but not really care to learn what it is called, word for word. is it just me or can someone really learn to play guitar based on what sounds good to them when they play. 
ps- zepp, sorry for shitting on your thread.


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## TomAwesome (Jul 29, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> But the tritone is evil and should never to be played! Heathens!!! Heathens!!!!



Yeah, yeah, and parallel fifths are inexcusable! Oh shit, there go your power chords! 



daybean said:


> doesnt know what anyone is talking about, i do but not really care to learn what it is called, word for word. is it just me or can someone really learn to play guitar based on what sounds good to them when they play.
> ps- zepp, sorry for shitting on your thread.



You can, and that's what a lot of people do, but knowing at least a little bit of theory helps quite a bit. Theory is just another toolset in making music. You can do the job without it, but it can help you do that job better if you know how to use it.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 29, 2008)

Dayvid, I'm interested in learning theory because the old tricks just aren't doing it anymore, I'm a self taught guitar player who has become pretty good as a player, but I need to refill my bag of tricks.


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## daybean (Jul 29, 2008)

ive been playing guitar for so many years and i cant see myself learning guitar theory. even if peolple think i suck at guitar or im playing chords and scales in the wrong way, i think the sound i make when i plug in my guitar makes my "sucky sound" my own.


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## daybean (Jul 29, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> Dayvid, I'm interested in learning theory because the old tricks just aren't doing it anymore, I'm a self taught guitar player who has become pretty good as a player, but I need to refill my bag of tricks.



no,no im not saying dont do it. hell now im a little intrested. just throwing my two cents. i once thought i was out of tricks too, but then i just got better at making my own chords (maybe not my own, just a little different).


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## TomAwesome (Jul 29, 2008)

daybean said:


> ive been playing guitar for so many years and i cant see myself learning guitar theory. even if peolple think i suck at guitar or im playing chords and scales in the wrong way, i think the sound i make when i plug in my guitar makes my "sucky sound" my own.



And if that works for you, that's fine.  A lot of people like to have a better understanding of how music works, though.


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## daybean (Jul 29, 2008)

yeah, thats cool. just saying what i do. maybe not the best way but i think anyone who tries to play is cool, theory or no theory.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 29, 2008)

"Music Theory" is such an odd term. The theory of music... who the hell codified this?

Zepp, what's to stop you from taking a Music 101 course or intro to theory at a community college? I can't reccomend any books or DVD's, as I could never learn anything from them, but I've always found it helpful to have someone to clarify things for me in the flesh.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 29, 2008)

I hate school with a passion.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 29, 2008)

What if your professor was a fire-breathing Metal god? Or a sharp-dressed middle-aged jazz wankler with asthma at the very least?


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## Zepp88 (Jul 29, 2008)

It would be cool to go one on one with a guy like that, but fuck going to a college.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 29, 2008)

Somebody mentioned Musictheory.net earlier. That's a good resource, but if you want a good grip on theory, nothing's better than knowing somebody who has an education in theory that doesn't mind sharing wisdom. There's always these forums, too, but you have to know what you're looking for.


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## Naren (Jul 29, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> It would be cool to go one on one with a guy like that, but fuck going to a college.



Why? It's a HEEEEEEELL of a lot more enjoyable than reading a book.

I've owned about 4 books on music theory (not including ones I had to buy for school), but I have never read through an entire book. I took 2 music theory courses in college and I was able to read through the entire texts in both classes, expand upon my knowledge (I had studied music theory a bit on my own beforehand), and was able to do a lot of things I wouldn't have imagined being able to do: read music quite quickly, listen to music and then notate what I hear, and so on. And I really enjoyed going to the class. Of course, I can't do any of that anymore because I don't have any reason to read music, so I've lost the ability and I have no reason to notate music, so I lost that ability too.

But, a music class is a 100000000000000000000000000000000000000x better than a music theory book.


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## Zepp88 (Jul 29, 2008)

I just can't stand classroom environments, at all. I always hated it.

I'd rather learn on my own.


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## rwmcnames (Dec 24, 2008)

Satriani has a few good examples of modes on Utube. If anything, you will appreciate how ingrained the chord-scale realtionships are in his ear. Further, Joe has instant fretboard recognition and recall in most any key. That's huge! It's not sufficient to sort off understand a concept in one area of the neck and in one key only. It's easy to quiz a guitar player to see how much they understand about what they're playing at any given moment. Sadly, a lot of metal players have a "Guitar Hero" approach to their underatnding of their instrument. More music education in guitar, at a much younger age in our schools, would be a good first step

Sat
Satriani has a few good examples of modes on Utube. If anything, you will appreciate how ingrained the chord-scale relationships are in his ear. Further, Joe has instant fret board recognition and recall in most any key. That's huge! It's not sufficient to sort off understand a concept in one area of the neck and in one key only. It's easy to quiz a guitar player to see how much they understand about what they're playing at any given moment. Sadly, a lot of metal players have a "Guitar Hero" approach to their understanding of their instrument. More music education in guitar, at a much younger age in our schools, would be a good first step. Get a good teacher; someone who can demonstrate on guitar modes and chords relationships. They should also be willing to assign a regiment of practicing for you, with specific goals in mind. Everything you can steal from other guitar players should be thoroughly analyzed and re-learned in other keys to make it usable in other musical settings. Finally, learn to read music, as this skill helps one to think more like a traditional musician in terms of timing, harmony, melody, and dynamics. Sounds daunting, eh?
riani has a few good examples of modes on Utube. If anything, you will appreciate how ing
Satriani has a few good examples of modes on Utube. If anything, you will appreciate how ingrained the chord-scale relationships are in his ear. Further, Joe has instant fret board recognition and recall in most any key. That's huge! It's not sufficient to sort off understand a concept in one area of the neck and in one key only. It's easy to quiz a guitar player to see how much they understand about what they're playing at any given moment. Sadly, a lot of metal players have a "Guitar Hero" approach to their understanding of their instrument. More music education in guitar, at a much younger age in our schools, would be a good first step. Get a good teacher; someone who can demonstrate on guitar modes and chords relationships. They should also be willing to assign a regiment of practicing for you, with specific goals in mind. Everything you can steal from other guitar players should be thoroughly analyzed and re-learned in other keys to make it usable in other musical settings. Finally, learn to read music, as this skill helps one to think more like a traditional musician in terms of timing, harmony, melody, and dynamics. Sounds daunting, eh?
rained the chord-scale relationships are in his ear. Further, Joe has instant fret board recognition and recall in most any key. That's huge! It's not sufficient to sort off understand a concept in one area of the neck and in one key only. It's easy to quiz a guitar player to see how much they understand about what they're playing at any given moment. Sadly, a lot of metal players have a "Guitar Hero" approach to their understanding of their instrument. More music education in guitar, at a much younger age in our schools, would be a good first step. Get a good teacher; someone who can demonstrate on guitar modes and chords relationships. They should also be willing to assign a regiment of practicing for you, with specific goals in mind. Everything you can steal from other guitar players should be thoroughly analyzed and re-learned in other keys to make it usable in other musical settings. Finally, learn to read music, as this skill helps one to think more like a traditional musician in terms of timing, harmony, melody, and dynamics. Sounds daunting, eh?


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## ilikes2shred (Dec 24, 2008)

I found this website very helpful>>>> Music Theory on 8notes.com

It pretty much starts from nothing, so it should be worth a read.


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## courtney2018 (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll mention it. You can pick up Doug Doppler's Diatonic Theory for not much money at all. Included with it is all the tab. Doug explains and lays everything out so a noob that doesn't have a clue as to what's going on can grasp what he's teaching. I've had it for about 3 years now and I still use it.

Along with that I would also highly suggest Desi Serna's DVDs. They're cheap! I've got a few of them. He not only goes over it he also plays examples of today's music so you can hear what he's talking about. He's an excellent teacher!

I've gotten more out of those two guys right there than any other book, DVD or internet site, which I have to say excludes Dave Weiner's Riff of the Week. All of Dave's weekly teachings are free right on youtube. This week he talked about inversions and lays it all out pretty simple.

If you were to get Doug's DVD and a couple of Desi's DVDs you'd understand enough theory to chat with anyone. You don't get into the really advanced theory stuff, but alot of players, I don't think, really get too advanced with their song creation. Everything is pretty much one of the seven modes, perhaps some inversions here and there and solos based on another mode to complement the song. For example, if I remember right, Steve Vai's "Liberty" was based off of inversions from the "Star Spangled Banner" and was most likely written in Lydian, which is a mode that he's in absolute love with.

Check out at least Doug's DVD. I promise it'll be the best $40 you ever spent on instruction.


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## freepower (Mar 21, 2009)

I'd suggest my theory lessons in my sig. They're designed for guitarists to learn theory. Theory contains mathematical elements (which don't suit everybody) but regardless, it must be applied to the guitar - and that is what my vids focus on. They also assume NOTHING on the part of the viewer, so you may find the first few make you go "Well duh!".


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