# Guitarist going drummer...



## concertjunkie (Sep 18, 2011)

I have been getting an itch to learn drums for awhile, mainly to have a full understanding of rhythm, and bring that into my guitar playing (seeing guys like Misha who go the other way around and produce some awesome results has been a major factor)

I dont have the money to shell out for a decent electronic, so for now I just have a small practice pad tree (will be coming in tuesday or so)

So back to the basics... I would like to ultimately shoot to learn the styles of a lot of the "groovy metal" artists such as meshuggah, animals as leaders etc, and some of the eclectic drummers like Morgen Agren. 

But I have a ways to go before I get there. So Drummers! What would be the best approach for me to go in teaching myself? Should I learn and drill the rudiments to death? I know very little of the drummer world, so educate me. Thanks!


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## paleonluna (Sep 18, 2011)

I actually have been doing the same thing, I've played guitar and piano my whole life and started playing drums about half a year ago with similar goals as you.

I got a Roland TD-4 for $800 and have been learning on that, but honestly real drums are better.

I would definitely recommend finding someone to take lessons from. I worked on rudiments and stick technique for a month before I even touched a drumset. Now I just use a metronome to slowly increment my speed everyday for my metal songs, and my teacher continues to teach me grooves, finesse and all that other good shit non related to metal/blasting.

Check out the book called "A funky primer" its cheap and full of grooves, drills and great stuff to get started.


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## Thep (Sep 18, 2011)

I've found EZdrummer to actually be a great practice and learning tool with the ability to have a huge selection of beats to learn practice from and being able to see what is going on in the piano roll view.


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## danieluber1337 (Sep 18, 2011)

Thep said:


> I've found EZdrummer to actually be a great practice and learning tool with the ability to have a huge selection of beats to learn practice from and being able to see what is going on in the piano roll view.



Not to mention being able to slow it down/speed it up as you need to.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Sep 19, 2011)

concertjunkie said:


> So back to the basics... I would like to ultimately shoot to learn the styles of a lot of the "groovy metal" artists such as meshuggah, animals as leaders etc, and some of the eclectic drummers like Morgen Agren.
> 
> But I have a ways to go before I get there. So Drummers! What would be the best approach for me to go in teaching myself? Should I learn and drill the rudiments to death? I know very little of the drummer world, so educate me. Thanks!



Some words of advice, keep AAL and Meshuggah as sources of inspiration, but when you're starting, dont try to play that stuff.
Start basic, learn your good ol' 4/4 beats, easy fills, accents.

Then work your way up to ghost notes, doubles, triplets, and so on.

One of the biggest things that helped me when I first started, is watching others.
I'd say that one of the best things thats ever happened to the internet is YouTube. Watch as much as you play, I cant describe how resourceful it is, and how much it can benefit your playing.

And whatever your do, DONT GET DOWN ON YOURSELF. Drumming is not like guitar in any way, the physical element is key here, not notes and root structures. It takes a long time and lots of practice, LOTS OF PRACTICE DANGIT!!!

If you wanna do double bass, get a decent pedal, nothing too expensive or pro, but its better to start early, that way one foot doesnt get too practiced while the other doesnt.

If i think of more, I'll let you know!


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## ArrowHead (Sep 19, 2011)

Here's how I got started:

Go to VicFirth.com and click the "education" tab. Start by adding the rudiments from the 40 Rudiments lesson and play through them all, starting at the bronze level on each.

Vic Firth Presents: 40 Essential Rudiments



I kept my laptop on a snare stand next to my kit for about a year. Don't forget, do the same exercises with your feet! Once you're comfortable doing your rudiments with hands and feet, mix em up. Play flams between you're right arm and leg, or paradiddles between your left leg and right arm. etc...

This will seem tedious, boring, EXHAUSTING, and you will grow to hate the click of a metronome. But it's not FOR you, it's for your muscles. And once they learn this stuff, you will find it much easier for your body to play what your brain is thinking.



Also, the Dom Famularo lessons on the same site are awesome. I especially like the interviews he does with Jim Chapin about the Moeller technique - it will save you a lot of sticks and cramped muscles/injuries.

Video Lesson Series with Dom Famularo


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## ShadowFactoryX (Sep 19, 2011)

Dom is incredibly insightful, and I'll watch anything he does


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## concertjunkie (Sep 19, 2011)

That's a good chunk to start with, I will certainly take the advice. Much appreciated! I am buying a double bass pedal off of my roommate, so when that practice pad kit comes in I'll start climbing the mountain. But I know the payoff will be huge, especially on a compositional level.


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## OrsusMetal (Sep 19, 2011)

I know it isn't what you had mentioned, but since I met you at their concert, whynot pick up Hannes new instructional DVD? It sounded like it would be full of some great material.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Sep 20, 2011)

hannes grossman's new dvd is more blasting and control/speed exercises for an already basic metal player

concertjunkie is just trying to climb up a hill, not rocket into space


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## jordanky (Sep 20, 2011)

Another tip that I always felt kept me freshened up when I was playing drums, is every now and then, dig into other genre's for a bit on the side, just to keep your chops up.


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## Ancestor (Sep 27, 2011)

ArrowHead said:


> Here's how I got started:
> 
> Go to VicFirth.com and click the "education" tab. Start by adding the rudiments from the 40 Rudiments lesson and play through them all, starting at the bronze level on each.
> 
> ...




ha, that was awesome.  that guy can play. holy crap. i guess that's how good you get after 60 years of practice!


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## oddcam (Oct 7, 2011)

You can do so much on your own, but you MUST take a few lessons. Only a person standing next to you can really analyze and correct your technique.

Everything else is personal choice and style, but your technique must be solid or you won't progress down any path as quickly and you won't sound solid or confident.

Your teacher must know his shit. When you search and choose one (or more) - look for ORCHESTRAL percussion and/or MARCHING BAND credentials if possible.

Oh, and make sure you practice snare exercises and solos. This is where you build hand speed.

Enjoy the drums buddy


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 7, 2011)

I play drums over 20 years already and I would give you some tips to cover your "rhythm" part of musicianship, instead of drumming, since people gave already very valuable information here.
Find a small djembe or similar instrument. Any hand percussion drum with a stretched head would do the trick. The bigger the head, the better.

Learn to mimic the grooves, even whole songs with the help of two hands and fingers. What you will accomplish is to understand rhythm, understand grooves and teach your brain to "replicate" it, no matter on which surface. For example, try to play ac/dc, than Judas priest painkiller, than some brazilian, some Korean grooves. Learn to use odd time signatures by understanding the groove, and learn to play them without counting the hits.
Without this, you become a machine. Whit this, you will become a musician who makes his music on drums. Big difference.


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## Tobi (Oct 7, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> I play drums over 20 years already and I would give you some tips to cover your "rhythm" part of musicianship, instead of drumming, since people gave already very valuable information here.
> Find a small djembe or similar instrument. Any hand percussion drum with a stretched head would do the trick. The bigger the head, the better.
> 
> Learn to mimic the grooves, even whole songs with the help of two hands and fingers. What you will accomplish is to understand rhythm, understand grooves and teach your brain to "replicate" it, no matter on which surface. For example, try to play ac/dc, than Judas priest painkiller, than some brazilian, some Korean grooves. Learn to use odd time signatures by understanding the groove, and learn to play them without counting the hits.
> Without this, you become a machine. Whit this, you will become a musician who makes his music on drums. Big difference.





Sorry, can you explain please why you reckon one should learn to play without counting the hits? cause I think I disagree, especially when doing odd meter stuff, I might not always count every beat, but I will always now what for example my hi hat is playing and where the back beat is etc. 
I dont mean to offend you, just from my experience I pretty much always count in my head, for example when I am playing in my band and go from one riff into another, and the meter changes, the first 2 times we play the riff I will pretty much count every 8th note until I know I can just follow the melody.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 8, 2011)

Tobi said:


> Sorry, can you explain please why you reckon one should learn to play without counting the hits? cause I think I disagree, especially when doing odd meter stuff, I might not always count every beat, but I will always now what for example my hi hat is playing and where the back beat is etc.
> I dont mean to offend you, just from my experience I pretty much always count in my head, for example when I am playing in my band and go from one riff into another, and the meter changes, the first 2 times we play the riff I will pretty much count every 8th note until I know I can just follow the melody.



No worries man, I understand you totally.
The point on "getting the groove and not counting it" is the only way to become a musician and not a robot drummer. Counting is good, but lacks soul mostly in odd time signatures. Most of the eastern, brasilian or african drummers and percussionists do not count, and they don't need to count. The pattern you play becomes like a melody, and you just realise that melody with beats. If there is ofcourse a lot of time signature changes in one song, one might need to count, otherwise, that is the most robotic, boring and soulles way to play drums. I recommend every person with average/beginner level skills to try to understand the beat instead of counting it.


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## Tobi (Oct 8, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> No worries man, I understand you totally.
> The point on "getting the groove and not counting it" is the only way to become a musician and not a robot drummer. Counting is good, but lacks soul mostly in odd time signatures. Most of the eastern, brasilian or african drummers and percussionists do not count, and they don't need to count. The pattern you play becomes like a melody, and you just realise that melody with beats. If there is ofcourse a lot of time signature changes in one song, one might need to count, otherwise, that is the most robotic, boring and soulles way to play drums. I recommend every person with average/beginner level skills to try to understand the beat instead of counting it.



What exactly do you mean by understanding the beat? Do you mean by that understand the pulse? Because if thats the case I definantly agree, even though, to me understanding the pulse still means knowing where the accents are within the bar(s) and how much room or space I have in between to do cool stuff XD 
I have seen many very professional drummers count out aloud when playing there songs, Marco Minnemann is one of the big ones that comes to my mind, or if you watch the dream theater auditions for Mike Mangini, you can clearly see and hear him count out loud in the first episode of it. 
Dream Theater - The Spirit Carries On Episode 1 - YouTube
I dont know, maybe we have different ways of looking at it, or we are just talking cross purposes (not sure if Im using that right, had to look it up, lol) but I would consider myself a decent drummer and have many years experience playing in orchestras and different metal bands, therefore I used to play with notation which might have caused my different way of looking at it..
Playing like a robot... hm, yeah I guess in some cases I do, if I have a full on marching heavy metal riff, I do play like a robot, meaning right on the beat, with no accents on the beat or slightly opened hihats, if there are very groovy parts of a song, maybe farely slow with a lot of hihat opening and closing I might be slightly behind the beat to give the laid back feeling, and when I play a fast blast beat I am slightly in front of the beat to push the whole thing a little more, I am sure you know what I mean. however I use all of those things as musical tools, still keeping the beat/ pulse in mind, which is what being a musician is all about isnt it? 

Anyway, we are talking farely advanced techniques, and are probably getting quite off topic, but oh well


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 9, 2011)

Tobi said:


> What exactly do you mean by understanding the beat? Do you mean by that understand the pulse? Because if thats the case I definantly agree, even though, to me understanding the pulse still means knowing where the accents are within the bar(s) and how much room or space I have in between to do cool stuff XD
> I have seen many very professional drummers count out aloud when playing there songs, Marco Minnemann is one of the big ones that comes to my mind, or if you watch the dream theater auditions for Mike Mangini, you can clearly see and hear him count out loud in the first episode of it.
> Dream Theater - The Spirit Carries On Episode 1 - YouTube
> I dont know, maybe we have different ways of looking at it, or we are just talking cross purposes (not sure if Im using that right, had to look it up, lol) but I would consider myself a decent drummer and have many years experience playing in orchestras and different metal bands, therefore I used to play with notation which might have caused my different way of looking at it..
> ...



Actually, if you play in orchestras or songs like from Dream theater, it's only normal to count, since too many changes happening. In that case, counting is a strong tool.
But there are so many people trying to play drums in a too mathematical way, it get's really boring. The "feel" of drumming is the reason why I play it. Even when I play blastbeats, I feel every hit and respond to that feel on the next hit. Whithout thta, I wouldn't play at all 

Maybe I should clarify more what I mean. When I play one of my own songs on stage, I can talk to tech guy or a friend etc, and still play flawlessly, since I "know" where what happens. Counting would be counter productive in that situation, since I would lose it!

Many songs he is going to play are easy and straight, at least in the beginning. So "knowing" what should happen is better than counting. If you count, you are behind the song and try to keep up. When you "know", you are ahead and free to improvize.


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## iron blast (Oct 9, 2011)

Blastbeats <3


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## Oxidation_Shed (Oct 10, 2011)

iron blast said:


> Blastbeats <3



Excellent input


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## ArrowHead (Oct 12, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Actually, if you play in orchestras or songs like from Dream theater, it's only normal to count, since too many changes happening. In that case, counting is a strong tool.
> But there are so many people trying to play drums in a too mathematical way, it get's really boring. The "feel" of drumming is the reason why I play it. Even when I play blastbeats, I feel every hit and respond to that feel on the next hit. Whithout thta, I wouldn't play at all
> 
> Maybe I should clarify more what I mean. When I play one of my own songs on stage, I can talk to tech guy or a friend etc, and still play flawlessly, since I "know" where what happens. Counting would be counter productive in that situation, since I would lose it!
> ...




None of what your saying really makes sense to me. Even if YOU are not counting, if you're playing in time, it IS counting and math. I think you're endorsing not over-thinking drumming, which I also agree with, however as soon as you hit that drum it is math. 

I have a friend who started playing hand drums about 15 years ago. He does exactly what you're talking about, he throws on a Disco Biscuits CD and just jams along. Here we are, 15 years later, and he only understands two basic things: Triplets and sixteenth notes. Everything he considered "inspired" and creative is actually just repeatedly switching from 16ths to triplets while switching between straight time and double time. 

Much like you're explaining, he also says he doesn't want to become a "robot" or mathematical by taking lessons or learning rudiments. But in reality, he's just completely stunting his growth. 

To me your argument sounds a lot like the people who feel that learning music theory will change how they write or listen to music. EVERYTHING about drums IS math. The point of learning to count it is so that you can effortlessly and creatively string together accents and rhythms in fresh, original, and often spontaneous ways. If you want to do this, you need to internalize the pulse through counting and practice, a lot of it. THEN you can sit down and just "jam" and let it all flow naturally.

This is obviously my opinion based only on my own experiences with the drummers I know.


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## CrushingAnvil (Oct 13, 2011)

paleonluna said:


> I actually have been doing the same thing, I've played guitar and piano my whole life and started playing drums about half a year ago with similar goals as you.
> 
> I got a Roland TD-4 for $800 and have been learning on that, but honestly real drums are better.
> 
> ...



Good post.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Oct 13, 2011)

Huff a lot of gasoline. To be a good drummer you have to think like one!


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## Solodini (Oct 16, 2011)

Don't stick to just learning stuff in 4/4 until you think you're "good enough". 5/4, 7/4 et c. are no more difficult than 4/4 and if you're learning so that you can expand your rhythmic understanding on guitar then I'd say that learning to make varied time signatures work and groove equally well is important. While you can develop you technique and your mind in tandem, the don't necessarily progress at the same rate. It's why drilling exercises can become boring. Keep your mind interested and learning as quickly as it wants to and can by changing things up. 

I agree that learning to replicate rhythms on a single drum is helpful to learning to recreate it on any instrument but if you're wanting to increase your understanding of rhythm then I'd say counting is pretty important. You may not need to initially but once you work out how to play a pattern, counting over it and finding where the beats fall will give you a frame of reference to work out the pattern if you forget it. You can then also know what is going on in the pattern and reference that elsewhere, progressing your own use of rhythm.

Addition: Someone left me neg-rep on this saying "you know nothing about drumming, shut your mouth", which I found to be pretty rude, as well as stupid seeing as I'm talking in text which doesn't even involve opening my mouth. I may not be a drummer but I know a decent amount about rhythm and how to learn so if you have any objection to something I've said then please say so specifically so I can either prove myself wrong or show that I do actually know what I'm talking about.


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## daemon barbeque (Oct 23, 2011)

It


ArrowHead said:


> None of what your saying really makes sense to me. Even if YOU are not counting, if you're playing in time, it IS counting and math. I think you're endorsing not over-thinking drumming, which I also agree with, however as soon as you hit that drum it is math.
> 
> I have a friend who started playing hand drums about 15 years ago. He does exactly what you're talking about, he throws on a Disco Biscuits CD and just jams along. Here we are, 15 years later, and he only understands two basic things: Triplets and sixteenth notes. Everything he considered "inspired" and creative is actually just repeatedly switching from 16ths to triplets while switching between straight time and double time.
> 
> ...



it's totally opposite in my experience. I grew up with odd time signatures, I enjoy world music and can play every song I know in my head, without counting. I agree with drumming being math, but it's not counting. Breaking to the simplest hits to understand and follow a groove has nothing to do with constant counting.
What I try to tell him is "not" ignoring written music, taking classes, learning proper technique and whatnot. I also stated in my first post that the posts before mine where already great.

I try to accomplish one thing. Understanding and feeling what you do, and enjoying while you do it. Sticks , bassdrum pedal, sitting position and all other small details are the basics of the Drumming, but can't make you a good drummer. They only can make you better if you already have it "in you". And in my experience, proper drummig comes with rhtyhm, the feeling and the groove. All of these 3 happen in mind outside of the drumset. That's why I point out other sources than just the drumset, to complete the picture. Many percussionists are good drummers. Not vice versa.


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## Cannibalbritney (Nov 11, 2011)

concertjunkie said:


> I have been getting an itch to learn drums for awhile, mainly to have a full understanding of rhythm, and bring that into my guitar playing (seeing guys like Misha who go the other way around and produce some awesome results has been a major factor)
> 
> I dont have the money to shell out for a decent electronic, so for now I just have a small practice pad tree (will be coming in tuesday or so)
> 
> ...



trust me when i say... learn your rudiments, get them down very well, from 40bpm up to at least 120, before you even think about getting a kit... when i started playin drums, i bought a 5000 dollar setup and was just jamming along to songs *which did help... but when i started taking lessons, i spent more time on my pad learning rudiments than the kit... then when i finally went back to the kit, I was 100x better, plus it'll give you time to save up for a vicious yamaha oak custom kit...


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## Overtone (Dec 16, 2011)

Seems like some good advice in this thread! I am also a guitarist working on my rhythm. A couple of things I've really enjoyed and benefited from are Read Ryhthm, which lets you tap out rhythms on an ipad/iphone as you read them. It reaches a pretty advanced level. Doing just a little bit every week really adds up. The other has been konnokol, the Indian method of using special syllables to "speak" rhythms. Check out The Gateway to Rhythm... its a very cool concept!

One thing I could use is something that will quickly prime me on how many of the classic beats are constructed. I like the abilities I've gained from the things I've worked on, but something like that would be a practical way for me to bring a beat I may be thinking of into my music without having to invent it from scratch. It's also a good way to increase my capacity to have a full drumbeat in my head.. I can ramp up the complexity. I saw EZ Drummer mentioned for this... anything else? A book/cd or a dvd would be perfect.


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## texshred777 (Dec 20, 2011)

+1 for those that suggest learning the rudiments. Get the Rudimental Cookbook and start easy. 

You may not want to be a "drumline" player, but having fluency with rudiments before ever having tried kit, it was a pretty easy transition besides the obvious foot work. 

Being able to competently express a rhythm with any sticking will have a HUGE benefit for you.

True story:

My best friend had to recently audition a drummer. His band is a progressive metal band from Dallas. Guy shows up after listening to some of the demos and plays through everything flawlessly. What do you know, former drum corps guy. Big surprise. Total mastery of rudiments=proficient drummer.


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## Dave_Magos (Jan 1, 2012)

concertjunkie said:


> I have been getting an itch to learn drums for awhile, mainly to have a full understanding of rhythm, and bring that into my guitar playing (seeing guys like Misha who go the other way around and produce some awesome results has been a major factor)
> 
> I dont have the money to shell out for a decent electronic, so for now I just have a small practice pad tree (will be coming in tuesday or so)
> 
> ...




Great thread...

I've been drumming for 16 years, and one of the biggest limb Independence and poly-meter/p-rhythm boosters I've found is playing the guitar. Granted i starting messing with guitar and bass a few years before I gained an affinity for drums, but none the less, on a subconscious level, if you're a guitar player, you have a big advantage in that all that you're learning is to train your limbs to do what you already know! Your understanding of rhythm and structure as well as odd time is already well established.


As far as a easy tool for learning, I STRONGLY recommend Drum Channel - Online Drum Lessons, Drumming Techniques and Drum Shows. Everything from beginner classes to pro-level theory/execution are covered from the likes of Terry Bozzio to Neil Peart. I've been pressing them to have Thomas Haake and Morgren Agren on DC and have been assured they have both been extended invitations and will be visiting for Bozzio Interviews, Jams and hopefully, LESSONS!


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