# Microtonal Fretted Instruments?



## Xodus (Sep 28, 2010)

Inspired by this.

1.What would be the purpose of this type of fret? The poster who owns this guitar mentions chromatics and intervals[/URL], but I don't see how that would work.


2.Would the extra note given be a note not part of the twelve notes of Western music? 

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I was not sure where to put it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 28, 2010)

Microtonal music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## bostjan (Sep 28, 2010)

Xodus said:


> Inspired by this.
> 
> 1.What would be the purpose of this type of fret? The poster who owns this guitar mentions chromatics and intervals, but I don't see how that would work.



There are intervals outside of the 12-tone world, used extensively in arabic music, but also found in baroque Dutch music and experimental western music, such as the neutral third, neutral seventh, harmonic seventh, etc., which cannot even begin to be appoximated with 12-EDO.




> 2.Would the extra note given be a note not part of the twelve notes of Western music?



Correct.

In fact, the 12 notes in an octave on the guitar are not even the same as the notes in Western music theory, but most of them are close enough.

If you think about it, there are actually more than 12 notes in Western theory:

1. unison
2. minor second
3. major second
4. minor third
5. major third
6. perfect fourth
7. augmented fourth
(the tritone we have on guitar is often used to approximate the aug4 and dim5, but is actually neither. It is closest to the tritone of African traditional music, and thus lends itself well to blues music and its derivatives)
8. diminished fifth
9. perfect fifth
10. augmented fifth
11. minor sixth
12. major sixth
13. harmonic seventh
14. diminished seventh
15. minor seventh
16. major seventh
and finally, the octave, which takes us back to the root.

These tones are all unique frequency ratios, but we obviously do not have 16 frets in an octave on the guitar. The reason someone doesn't just magically move the frets around is because these ratios are only valid in one key. If you move to a second key, say, based off of the perfect fifth, then you would need fifteen more frets for that key, and then fiteen more for the fifth of the fifth and so on, until you had an infinite number of frets.



> Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I was not sure where to put it.



I cannot speak for the mods. Personally, I'm glad you asked.


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## ellengtrgrl (Sep 28, 2010)

There are several sites devoted to microtonal guitar:

http://www.microtonalguitar.com/

John Catler, is one if its biggest proponents, via his band JC And The Microtones, and the microtone fretted guitars he sells on his website.

Freenote Music

I've been interested one of these for the past several months (new musical experiences, keep me from getting bored musically), but they're kind of pricey, for what is essentially a re-necked guitar. Still, they are pretty cool, and if the prices came down, I might consider getting one.

Here's some demos of John's microtonal guitars

[YouTubevid]O2eukIoSsKM[/YouTubevid]


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## Customisbetter (Sep 28, 2010)

I have yet to a see a 24 fret octave guitar with regular fret spacing cut in half. Maybe I'll make one.


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## bostjan (Sep 28, 2010)

Ellen,

Jon Catler is one of the pioneers of the microtonal electric guitar. His tuning system is quite different from the status quo even among microtonal guitarists.

You can also check out Neil Haverstick for examples of 19-EDO, 31-EDO, and 34-EDO. He has some compositions which sound very nice, and you may hardly be able to tell that there is anything microtonal going on unless you pay close attention to the tuning. He also has some "out" stuff, though.

I have a freenote 19-EDO superstrat and it plays very well. The body is fairly cheap, but I do not feel that the quality of the body is really as important as the quality of the neck and electronics. Plus, it is the same quality of wood you would get on a Squire Strat, just with better workmanship.

The beauty of 19-EDO, is that you can play one blindfolded and it sounds only moderately different from standard tuning. Once you get the hang of jamming some covers on it, it's pretty easy to start writing.

On more odd tunings, like 22-EDO, there are fewer analogies with standard tuning (12-EDO), which makes it more difficult to get to the stage where you can compose deliberately, but that adds more to the intrigue and lends itself more to quantum leaps in composition technique.







24-EDO Strat

Of the many options with fret spacing that small, 24-EDO tends not to be popular, because both 19-EDO and 22-EDO offer closer approximations to consonant intervals, and 31-EDO or 34-EDO take you extremely close to having all scale intervals closer to just tuning, and also offer many good approximations to non-western intervals.

Deliberate dissonance can be better achieved through 16-EDO, or 17-EDO if you want to keep good fifths, or pretty much anything that distances itself from other accepted systems of tuning.

Here is a nine string 16-EDO guitar by sword guitars:


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## Xodus (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks for the responses guys, it really helped clear up my question. Do any of you have experience with Sword Guitars?


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## anne (Sep 28, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I have yet to a see a 24 fret octave guitar with regular fret spacing cut in half. Maybe I'll make one.


Well, there is M.A.N. ... lol :|


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## Customisbetter (Sep 28, 2010)

^I thought his and his bassist had 27 frets per octave...


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## Xodus (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but could you elaborate on the concepts of the various EDOs? As I understand it, X EDO has X notes in an octave. How would this affect the tonality? Is it primarily based on the intervals given to you? I am mainly interested in the more dissonant EDOs. If you could give any more information, it would be greatly appreciated.


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## dpm (Sep 29, 2010)

I've got a 24 tone/octave partly made for myself, but it's on hold right now until I've caught up with orders (got sick early in the year and everything has fallen behind  ). I'm trying a new fretboard radius concept on this one too - flat on the treble side and compound radius on the bass. It's something that I couldn't do before moving to CNC. I think it will end up feeling very nice but I have to get through a few more jobs before I find out


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## Winspear (Sep 29, 2010)

Sorry if I'm missing something here...I've read through the thread and don't really understand. 
How comes the chords played in that video sound better than the chords with normal notes that I'm used to?


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## dpm (Sep 29, 2010)

EtherealEntity said:


> Sorry if I'm missing something here...I've read through the thread and don't really understand.
> How comes the chords played in that video sound better than the chords with normal notes that I'm used to?



In a nutshell... 12 tone equal temperament was developed as a way to keep things sounding 'OK' in different keys. No intervals will be perfectly in tune but it's more or less in tune and relatively easy to develop playable instruments for, and allows for compositions with key changes. Increasing the number of available notes per octave can make certain intervals more accurate (and sometimes less accurate). It's all a compromise.


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## bostjan (Sep 29, 2010)

Xodus said:


> I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but could you elaborate on the concepts of the various EDOs? As I understand it, X EDO has X notes in an octave. How would this affect the tonality? Is it primarily based on the intervals given to you? I am mainly interested in the more dissonant EDOs. If you could give any more information, it would be greatly appreciated.



EDO stands for Equally Divided Octave.

By having the octave split into equal pieces, it is guaranteed that:

1) The octave will be perfectly in tune, and
2) Each of the X keys will intonate exactly the same.

Alternatives to EDO include, but are not limited to:

a) Just Tuning - All intervals are perfect ratios in one key. Playing in other keys will sound very dissonant.
c) Pythagorean Tuning - All of the octave and fifths will be perfectly in tune in all keys, except whichever the last one is to tune. The last tuned fifth sounds terribly dissonant and is called "wolf fifth."
c) Equal divisions of some other interval than octave, such as twelfth (octave + fifth). These make one interval perfect, at the sacrifice of others and allow perfect key transpositions.

The number of equal divisions in equal divisions and the limit on the ratios used in just tuning can be endlessly redeveloped.

For instance, just tuning, once thought to be perfectly universal, has since been analyzed to prove that different cultures hear different ratios as perfect intervals. Some, like Catler, stress the harmonic series ascending and descending, as the source of perfect intervals. This tuning lends itself very well to blues music, as it emphasizes the notes from the dominant seventh chord (V7), but not to classical music. Classical western music takes two basic approaches to just tuning - renaissance and modern. Eastern just tuning breaks into Indian (which is very similar to western, with the exception of the sixth), Arabic, Indonesian, and Oriental (China was the first culture to develop 12-EDO).

To get the most consonant sounding EDO, one can compare the notes generated with just intervals to match as follows:

Western Modern: 12-EDO, 34-EDO
Western Renaissance: 19-EDO, 31-EDO
Arabic: 17-EDO, 24-EDO
Indonesian: 7-EDO, 15-EDO

Other semi-consonant EDO's have been deployed:
22-EDO has good thirds and decent fifths
17-EDO has good fifths
27-EDO has good minor thirds and acceptable thirds and fifths
29-EDO has good fifths
EDO's approximate intervals better, on average, as they increase in divisions.
Guitarists typically abhor any divisions greater than ~35, as the frets get smaller and smaller.

The beauty of semi-consonant EDO's is that they allow you to use some consonant intervals whilst exploring new dissonant intervals.

Choosing any number of divisions that is +1 or -1 from any of the above mentioned will typically give you a jumble of dissonance, like 11-EDO, 13-EDO, 16-EDO, 18-EDO, 20-EDO, 21-EDO, 23-EDO, 25-EDO, etc.

Maybe to get the maximum level of dissonance, you could take an unfretted board and place the frets at completely random locations, then tune each string to a completely random frequency. That would be complete mayhem, but I doubt that is your aim.

I have heard some death metal played on 17-EDO. (I know, unless I can prove it, it didn't happen!) Maybe I'll be able to track down the link. Having good fifths is a pretty good advantage to have in any style of music, but 17-EDO has some really whacky intervals that can take you into some pretty dissonant territory as far as western ears go, but the intervals still have some interesting qualities to them.

I hope this answers your question.



dpm said:


> In a nutshell... 12 tone equal temperament was developed as a way to keep things sounding 'OK' in different keys. No intervals will be perfectly in tune but it's more or less in tune and relatively easy to develop playable instruments for, and allows for compositions with key changes. Increasing the number of available notes per octave can make certain intervals more accurate (and sometimes less accurate). It's all a compromise.



Very good summary. 
I hope you are feeling better and I'm sure we would all appreciate seeing more of your work as it becomes available.


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## dpm (Sep 29, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Very good summary.



lol, best I could do after several beers 



bostjan said:


> I hope you are feeling better and I'm sure we would all appreciate seeing more of your work as it becomes available.



Overall, a lot better than I was, but still not quite 100%. Things could be a whole lot worse so I'm not complaining


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## Xodus (Sep 29, 2010)

bostjan said:


> I hope this answers your question.


It does, amazingly well in fact. Thank you for typing all that out.


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## ellengtrgrl (Sep 29, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Ellen,
> 
> Jon Catler is one of the pioneers of the microtonal electric guitar. His tuning system is quite different from the status quo even among microtonal guitarists.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the info.  These look soooo tasty!, and I never thought I'd say that about a Strat again (I got stratted out a long time ago). How much are they price-wise? I might look into getting one within the next month or two, if they don't cost a gajillion dollars. LOVE the 9, but I'm sure it costs way more than I can afford. Believe it or not, the 22 fret EDO is intriguing to me, due to it's oddball intervalic nature. That makes it challenging, and I could use a good musical challenge.

BTW, I listened to some of Neil's stuff on YouTube. He sounds really cool!!


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 29, 2010)

If you're going to go with Sword guitars, I think you'd be much better off giving them a guitar to replace the fretboard on. 

Their custom 6-strings start at $1000 and, to be frank, they seem to be very basic in overall construction, as well as hardware used. Even their Strats like the one pictured are basically cheap copies that they sell for $400 to $600. 

I'd much rather take a quality guitar that I have, or at least buy something like an Agile (cheap, but effective) and give it to them to do a conversion on.


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## Holy Katana (Sep 30, 2010)

Let's get some extended just intonation in this mothafucka! This guy has modified several of his classical guitars' fretboards to play in various just tunings. It's really cool.


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## Deadnightshade (Sep 30, 2010)

I think his fretboard has a devoted LSD filter

Really what is the mechanism on his guitar?


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## Holy Katana (Sep 30, 2010)

Deadnightshade said:


> I think his fretboard has a devoted LSD filter
> 
> Really what is the mechanism on his guitar?


He put tape on the fretboard and colored it with markers to help him remember which note is which. If you look at them closely, you'll notice that the frets are irregular, so a visual aid is helpful. There are also three different guitars in the videos, each with different intonation systems (although they're all based on the harmonic series).


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 30, 2010)

Glad to see Dante Rosati in this thread, excellent musician. 
I love that "Statue Of Alice" piece.
I would love to have an undertone-series based guitar.


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## josh pelican (Sep 30, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you're going to go with Sword guitars, I think you'd be much better off giving them a guitar to replace the fretboard on.
> 
> Their custom 6-strings start at $1000 and, to be frank, they seem to be very basic in overall construction, as well as hardware used. Even their Strats like the one pictured are basically cheap copies that they sell for $400 to $600.


 
I back this so hard. I don't know a lot about microtonal guitars, or Sword guitars, but that Xiphos-looking guitar looks like it was made with play-dough. Not to mention it looks pretty shitty.

Also, I agree with All Your Bass on Dante's "Statue of Alice". It's wonderful.


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## bostjan (Sep 30, 2010)

There are a lot of luthiers who will refret an instrument for microtones for a reasonable price. I believe Jon Catler will. John Starret at least used to, and I once used a guy named Thomas Knath at MIT, but I don't know if he's still around.

Dan at Oni Guitars should have no problem doing modifications, and he does excellent work.

Steer clear, though, of any unknown dude hanging out at music stores saying he knows what he's doing when it comes to microtonal fretboards. I knew a guy who thought he knew what he was doing enough to convince another guy to get a fretboard done, and it turned out badly.


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## Holy Katana (Sep 30, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2160658 said:


> Glad to see Dante Rosati in this thread, excellent musician.
> I love that "Statue Of Alice" piece.
> I would love to have an undertone-series based guitar.


How would that work? I know what the undertone series is, but due to the way it works, you'd... I don't even know. Has anyone even made a just tuning system based on undertones?


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## bostjan (Sep 30, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> How would that work? I know what the undertone series is, but due to the way it works, you'd... I don't even know. Has anyone even made a just tuning system based on undertones?



Jon Catler's tuning is based on overtones and undertones.

A lot of pure ratio tuning fretboards end up looking like this:






Catler's design is multi-tonic, so it doesn't mess with partial or bent frets.


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## Holy Katana (Sep 30, 2010)

I want to put my old Epi SG to good use and make the fretboard just. Even though I'm not sure how I'd go about doing it. Obviously, the irregular frets are the challenge.


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## bostjan (Sep 30, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> I want to put my old Epi SG to good use and make the fretboard just. Even though I'm not sure how I'd go about doing it. Obviously, the irregular frets are the challenge.



Which notes? Ptolemaic should be easy to do with the open string as the tonic. I could shoot you some ratios by PM if you want to check out the system I pieced together to cover modern western intervals.


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## Holy Katana (Sep 30, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Which notes? Ptolemaic should be easy to do with the open string as the tonic. I could shoot you some ratios by PM if you want to check out the system I pieced together to cover modern western intervals.


I was thinking 7-limit, not sure about how many tones. Definitely more than 12, less than, say, 30.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 30, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> How would that work? I know what the undertone series is, but due to the way it works, you'd... I don't even know. Has anyone even made a just tuning system based on undertones?


The Undertone series is the reverse of the Overtone series-i.e. in reverse. So whilst the overtone series starts with a base tone and adds higher harmonics that are a multiple of the original frequency the undertone series is based on dividing the original tone to get lower tone or undertones.

Also whilst the first few overtones create a major chord, the first few undertones make a minor chord.

So the Overtone series goes like this freq wise.
base, base x 2, base x 3, x4, x5, x6, x7, ... etc.

An Undertone series goes like this
base, base x 1/2, base x 1/3, base x 1/4, x1/5, x1/6, x1/7, ... etc.

It actually already has been manipulated to an extent. With some very precise bowing on the violin/viola one can actually create pitches that are *LOWER* than the open tuning of the string. 

Wikipedia can probably flesh it out a bit more


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## Holy Katana (Sep 30, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2161791 said:


> The Undertone series is the reverse of the Overtone series-i.e. in reverse. So whilst the overtone series starts with a base tone and adds higher harmonics that are a multiple of the original frequency the undertone series is based on dividing the original tone to get lower tone or undertones.
> 
> Also whilst the first few overtones create a major chord, the first few undertones make a minor chord.
> 
> ...


I said I knew what it was; I just don't know how one would make a tuning system based on it. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but the fact that it goes downwards seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.


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## Varcolac (Oct 1, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> I said I knew what it was; I just don't know how one would make a tuning system based on it. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but the fact that it goes downwards seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.



Work downwards from the octave? Eh, I don't know.


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## BlindingLight7 (Oct 1, 2010)

!


Uhhh.....It gets really bad, then good, then bad, then good...GAH


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## Customisbetter (Oct 1, 2010)

BlindingLight7 said:


> !
> 
> 
> Uhhh.....It gets really bad, then good, then bad, then good...GAH




That was like somebody poring rum into my ears.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 2, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> I said I knew what it was; I just don't know how one would make a tuning system based on it. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but the fact that it goes downwards seems to be the biggest obstacle to me.


In our tuning system the harmonics that we tune our scales to actually happen at much higher frequencies, but we transpose those down via octaves, until they all fit in an octave. Of course 12TET and any other non-just tuning system will move the notes to places where they don't perfectly match the harmonics, but that general explanation still stands.

So in a just undertone tuning, you can transpose the other notes up via octaves until they fit in an octave.

Bostjan mentioned various equal temperaments.
This made me remember "Well Temperaments", which are in the middle areas between just tunings and equal tunings. These have been used for Piano tuning in the past. Well Temperaments allow use of all keys, and no key sounds really 'super good' or 'super "out"', but all the 12 keys have a different 'flavor'. They all have a unique series of intervals. So all chords on all roots have their intervals in slightly different places, aside from pitch a Dm chord will sound different than a Fm-unlike in 12TET where all chords of the same type(and same voicing) sound the same anywhere, except for their absolute pitch.


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## Tymon (Oct 2, 2010)

Just dropping in to say I totally miss the point of these microtonal guitars. Sure, I'm all for trying new things and making progress in the world of music, and the idea of basing the intervals on a natural harmonic series is cool. But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...


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## Durero (Oct 2, 2010)

Tymon said:


> But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...



I'd say a much more accurate statement would be, "But in the _beginning_, it just sounds completely unfamiliar and strange..."

If you've only heard equal tempered western music since birth, watching a few youtube videos is probably not gonna do it. 

But you still might be surprised what consistent and repeated listenings over a period of months or years might do for your ears. Not only can your ears & brain adapt fairly quickly (year or so in my experience with Balinese gamelan) to other tuning schemes, but doing so may also refine your sensitivity and appreciation of good old equal temperament.


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## Holy Katana (Oct 2, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2163926 said:


> In our tuning system the harmonics that we tune our scales to actually happen at much higher frequencies, but we transpose those down via octaves, until they all fit in an octave. Of course 12TET and any other non-just tuning system will move the notes to places where they don't perfectly match the harmonics, but that general explanation still stands.
> 
> So in a just undertone tuning, you can transpose the other notes up via octaves until they fit in an octave.
> 
> ...


Again, I know all of this. How different would an undertone tuning be, though? That's really what I want to know.



Tymon said:


> Just dropping in to say I totally miss the point of these microtonal guitars. Sure, I'm all for trying new things and making progress in the world of music, and the idea of basing the intervals on a natural harmonic series is cool. But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...


Reactionary! Kill him!


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 2, 2010)

^You're just used to hearing 12TET which is pretty darn out.
Of course any tuning system can be used to make pleasant or grating sounding music, it's all in how it used. But how we are conditioned to hear things (via what musical experiences we have throughout our lives) has a HUGE effect on what one perceives as "in-tune." You could very well not like what you're hearing, though Beethoven would (most likely) say the same thing about a 12TET piano!!

If you were to play a perfectly tuned triad through high gain distortion, it would be just as clear as a power chord. On the usual 12TET guitar distortion brings the mistuned harmonies to the surface. Just tuning also allows clear chords in the bass register.

Another reason to have one of these guitars would be for studying music of other cultures which have completely different tuning systems. For example a 22TET guitar would be great for investigating east indian music,which divides teh octave into 22 parts, not equally though, and the super high frets on sitars allow minute modifications to the notes, much like pressing harder on a scalloped board. These are not random however, each scale has varies notes played with a specific amount of "bending" as an actual part of the scale itself.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 2, 2010)

DELETED DOUBLEPOST


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## Holy Katana (Oct 2, 2010)

Who are you talking to?


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## Tymon (Oct 3, 2010)

Durero said:


> I'd say a much more accurate statement would be, "But in the _beginning_, it just sounds completely unfamiliar and strange..."
> 
> If you've only heard equal tempered western music since birth, watching a few youtube videos is probably not gonna do it.
> 
> But you still might be surprised what consistent and repeated listenings over a period of months or years might do for your ears. Not only can your ears & brain adapt fairly quickly (year or so in my experience with Balinese gamelan) to other tuning schemes, but doing so may also refine your sensitivity and appreciation of good old equal temperament.



I have quite some experience listening to it, I get your point but it's more fun to stir up a thread like this with some provocation, right?

But that doesn't mean I still believe in what I said. Gamelan is different because it doesn't modulate, it just creates this static, hypnotic color of sound which has nothing to do with how and why people are playing these microtonal guitars. And sure, many musical cultures have more notes in one octave than western music, but they also have rules or customs how these notes are being used. Which is not the same as it is in our system with just "double the notes". Most of the music that utilize different tunings sound fine after the first 5 minutes of listening because of the way the notes are being used. Those microtonal guitar clips is a whole different concept and just sounds horrible. Even if you get used to it after a lot of listening, still, what's the point?


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## Xodus (Oct 3, 2010)

Tymon said:


> Those microtonal guitar clips is a whole different concept and just sounds horrible. Even if you get used to it after a lot of listening, still, what's the point?


I can't speak for anyone else, but that is exactly what I would use them for: creating intensely dissonant music (e.g. Gorguts or Portal).

BTW: you and the rest of Cynic seriously rock.


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## Tymon (Oct 3, 2010)

But isn't it more rewarding if you can compose tasteful dissonant music on normal instruments? It's almost like an easy way out to go for an instrument that will sound dissonant from itself, at that point you might as well use some fucked up tuning on a normal guitar where the strings are not tuned to our equal temperament.

And I guess that's the problem I have with this whole phenomenon; it's almost as if they're saying: the equal temperament is not good enough for our overly developed ear, we need something more advanced to be able to express ourselves. While personally I feel I'm just scratching the surface of what the possibilities with a normal guitar in equal temperament are. Probably just a different perspective.

I don't mean to get carried away, I mean, progress is good and it's cool people are trying new things


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 3, 2010)

Another reason for (some) of these tuning is for greater consonance, and/or better approximations of just tuning-which usually results in the same thing.

19TET fits this description quite well, it has much better thirds than 12TET, as well as all the other intervals being generally more in tune, except the fifth, but it's not massively mistuned by any means and sounds fine(IMO).

Try listening to the sound files under "examples" in this link to compare 12TET and just tuning.
Just intonation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And to Tymon, if you don't like it that's fine, and you are entitled to your opinion(s).
Let's just not a flame war, okay? (Not saying you were trying to in the first place anyway, but this thread could _*very easily*_ turn into an ugly argument)

Oddly enough it really isn't "progress" per say, as many composers have used microtonality or used extended/nonstandard tuning systems for some time. But it is a relatively recent thing for electric guitar.

One of the main reason I love fretless instruments (esp. basses) is the ability to play "in the cracks".

BTW I think that Jon Catler piece sounds lovely. Those "drifting" chords in the background sound sweet!!


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 3, 2010)

DELETED DOUBLEPOST


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## Durero (Oct 4, 2010)

Tymon said:


> Gamelan is different because it doesn't modulate, it just creates this static, hypnotic color of sound which has nothing to do with how and why people are playing these microtonal guitars. And sure, many musical cultures have more notes in one octave than western music, but they also have rules or customs how these notes are being used. Which is not the same as it is in our system with just "double the notes". Most of the music that utilize different tunings sound fine after the first 5 minutes of listening because of the way the notes are being used. Those microtonal guitar clips is a whole different concept and just sounds horrible. Even if you get used to it after a lot of listening, still, what's the point?



This is not important to the discussion but being a gamelan geek I have to quibble with your gamelan comment. Much traditional gamelan music does not modulate as you say, but contemporary Balinese gamelan semaradana(7-tone, as opposed to the older 5-tone) instruments are quite widespread and composers use them to modulate through many modes within the same piece.


Back on topic, I agree that these other tuning traditions we're discussing have developed extensive musical languages to utilize their tunings and make great music, but have you ever tried to imagine that development process at it's beginning? I'm sure a whole lot of crap music has been generated in every culture whenever new tools (instruments, tunings, ensembles, etc.) are invented. It takes a lot of time to get good at using unfamiliar tools.

Personally I don't think there's anything at all wrong with your negative judgement of these microtonal guitar explorations. I've seen you play live with Cynic and heard a bit of your other projects and it seems to me that you must have a GREAT deal of time invested in your technique and musicianship on your chosen instrument (which happens to be 12-tone equal tempered.) You're a bloody fantastic guitarist in my opinion, and frankly I don't understand why someone at your level would even be distracted enough by this microtonal stuff to comment at all 




Tymon said:


> it's almost as if they're saying: the equal temperament is not good enough for our overly developed ear, we need something more advanced to be able to express ourselves.


I think you're projecting your own thoughts onto others here. I've never heard anyone claim that these tuning systems are "more advanced" than 12-tone equal temperament. They're just pursuing their own interests to see where it leads. It's a diversification, not a replacement or threat to 12TET in any way.


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## bostjan (Oct 4, 2010)

Tymon said:


> Just dropping in to say I totally miss the point of these microtonal guitars. Sure, I'm all for trying new things and making progress in the world of music, and the idea of basing the intervals on a natural harmonic series is cool. But in the end, it just sounds horrible to our western musically trained ears...



Judging the entire realm of microtonal guitar music on one performer is equivalent to judging all rock music from listening to one band. 

One point that must be understood is that tuning, itself, is a field of study which has never been universally completed. The fact alone that two intervals are approximated by one on a 12-EDO instrument tells us that 12-EDO, although the best solution so far to tuning, is not perfect. 

I understand that this is not going to be everyone's bag, but as a musician, why limit yourself to western music? 

As far as just intonation goes, maybe it's just me, but even oddball experimental just tunings sound more in tune to my ears than an equal divided octave, and according to surveys conducted by Helmholtz and others, the average person hears ptolemaic just tunings as much more consonant than any well-temperment, equal temperment, etc.

Even to say that western music is confined to the 12-EDO tuning you use on your guitar is inaccurate. Nearly all of the session Nashville guys use a form of well-temperment, not to mention that strings and horns necessarily use a compromise between equal temperment and just tuning.

One major problem with guitarists is that handing them a microtonal instrument pretty much guarantees that they will noodle around until they find out a way that they think is showing off the uniqueness of the tuning, but in practice ends up showing the general audience how whacky the thing sounds.

Anyone can play "normal" sounding music on a 19-EDO, 31-EDO, 34-EDO, or just tuned guitar, and it can sound pretty good to the untrained ear. Most of us who are programmed to only accept 12-EDO may hear differently, though.

When I first got my 19-EDO guitar, I took it to band practice (three piece guitar drums and fretless bass), and no one even noticed at first. When they did notice, they commented on how indistinguishable it was from a regular guitar. To me, however, the guitar offers me more tonal options, so that I can distinguish between an augmented fourth and a diminished fifth, or between a diminished seventh and a major sixth.

But, honestly, I cannot fault any comment regarding most microtonal music sounding like pure wankery, because a lot of it is, IMO, but some of it is quite beautiful.


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## bostjan (Oct 4, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2163926 said:


> In our tuning system the harmonics that we tune our scales to actually happen at much higher frequencies, but we transpose those down via octaves, until they all fit in an octave. Of course 12TET and any other non-just tuning system will move the notes to places where they don't perfectly match the harmonics, but that general explanation still stands.
> 
> So in a just undertone tuning, you can transpose the other notes up via octaves until they fit in an octave.



Natural overtones form the foundation of classical arabic music.

Most of us are aware that dynamic scales exist; for example, the melodic minor scale changes depending on the direction of musical flow up or down the scale.

There are arabic scales and indian scales that vary the number of intervals allowed in the scale depending on the octave in which the notes are played.

One example comes from the harmonic series: Octave one is a root note drone (with possibilities of only unison). Octave two adds the fifth. Octave three forms the dominant chord (root, M3, p5, dom7), and octave four has the eight tone domiant/major hybrid scale (r, M2, M3, p4, p5, M6, dom7, M7). The fifth octave goes microtonal, offering more in-between notes.

There is also a minor scale that behaves exactly this way, which is based solely on the undertones. The basic idea is to reverse the natural octave numbering of the descending harmonic series, so that it is like descending harmonics, but every time you get back to the root, you jump up two octaves, taking you always higher than you were before. The idea of this is a little less sound than the ascending harmonic series, so the scale adds some dissonance.



All_¥our_Bass;2163926 said:


> Bostjan mentioned various equal temperaments.
> This made me remember "Well Temperaments", which are in the middle areas between just tunings and equal tunings. These have been used for Piano tuning in the past. Well Temperaments allow use of all keys, and no key sounds really 'super good' or 'super "out"', but all the 12 keys have a different 'flavor'. They all have a unique series of intervals. So all chords on all roots have their intervals in slightly different places, aside from pitch a Dm chord will sound different than a Fm-unlike in 12TET where all chords of the same type(and same voicing) sound the same anywhere, except for their absolute pitch.



The sad thing- it seems that a vast majority of the well-temperments have been lost over time, except for a few from Werckmeister and Young. Before the general acceptance of equal temperment in the twentieth century, which was mainly due to processes of mass production, these well-temperments were very well established as the industry standard. There were even books published on how the different keys sounded- as they really did all sound different. "This is Spinal Tap" made fun of these statements (out of context), when Nigel said "d minor is the saddest key of all," which was a perfectly sensical statement under well-temperment.


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## VariedStyles (Oct 4, 2010)

Probably a daft question (I don't know very much about temperaments) - How well would a fretless guitar and one with lute-like moveable gut frets work in regard to this?

Thanks.


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## bostjan (Oct 4, 2010)

VariedStyles said:


> Probably a daft question (I don't know very much about temperaments) - How well would a fretless guitar and one with lute-like moveable gut frets work in regard to this?
> 
> Thanks.



In what way?

You can play any note you want on a fretless. To play in a just tuning, though, you do have to temper your open strings a little differently. A lot of microtonal guys have fretless guitars laying around.

Moveable frets are a bit different in that you have to adjust them every time you want to change the tuning. For microtonal guys, this is much better than not being able to move them.

Years ago, I heard of a guitar that had a quick-chenge fretboard. That'd be pretty cool if you wanted to be able to change tunings without changing instruments, and it'd still be faster than moveable frets, but you would be limited to whichever tunings for which you had fretboards.


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## Tymon (Oct 4, 2010)

Durero said:


> I think you're projecting your own thoughts onto others here. I've never heard anyone claim that these tuning systems are "more advanced" than 12-tone equal temperament. They're just pursuing their own interests to see where it leads. It's a diversification, not a replacement or threat to 12TET in any way.



Of course I am! I never said I was right or that my opinion is based on facts, just having fun stirring up the conversation with my opinion.

Can you guys recommend some music where you think these microtonal tunings succeeded? I am interested for sure!


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## VariedStyles (Oct 4, 2010)

bostjan said:


> In what way?
> 
> You can play any note you want on a fretless. To play in a just tuning, though, you do have to temper your open strings a little differently. A lot of microtonal guys have fretless guitars laying around.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was just thinking how they'd be better than getting a new fretboard made. As I thought, an instrument with moveable frets would be pretty nice and versatile. Thanks!


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## bostjan (Oct 4, 2010)

Tymon said:


> Of course I am! I never said I was right or that my opinion is based on facts, just having fun stirring up the conversation with my opinion.
> 
> Can you guys recommend some music where you think these microtonal tunings succeeded? I am interested for sure!



I have had a heck of a time finding any of the clips that got me into the whole thing.

What style of music?

I have a kind of funky clip on my soundclick account...


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## dpm (Oct 4, 2010)

not fretted, but...


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## dpm (Oct 4, 2010)

quarter tone fretted (24tet) guitar on this -


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## jaco815 (Oct 4, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> Some of these melodies are really beautiful and I think "Wow, this is how it should always be" and then he hits some note that sounds sour to me and it's like a kick in the groin.
> 
> Overall I think it's fairly cool and could be great for solo work or for filmscores if you master it.


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## Holy Katana (Oct 4, 2010)

Tymon said:


> Of course I am! I never said I was right or that my opinion is based on facts, just having fun stirring up the conversation with my opinion.
> 
> Can you guys recommend some music where you think these microtonal tunings succeeded? I am interested for sure!








Anything by Harry Partch, really. There's also a cool BBC documentary on him that's on YouTube, too, if you want to watch it.

La Monte Young does some awesome stuff with just intonation, too:



The full thing is incredibly long, about six hours. I haven't heard it all, but I'd love to. It's just a piano retuned to a just version of the chromatic scale. It still sounds incredible, though.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 4, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Even to say that western music is confined to the 12-EDO tuning you use on your guitar is inaccurate. Nearly all of the session Nashville guys use a form of well-temperment, not to mention that strings and horns necessarily use a compromise between equal temperment and just tuning.


There's also the fact that guitars don't even do 12TET perfectly in the first place.

It's true that all western music on the guitar *isn't* 12TET, but it wouldn't be untrue to say that non-12TET temperaments and tuning systems are the exception, rather than the rule.


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## Holy Katana (Oct 5, 2010)

Well, most instruments, aside from digital synths (and I stress digital, as analog synths don't have perfect intonation due to oscillator drift unless the oscillator's pitch is digitally controlled), don't do 12-TET perfectly. Even pianos have to have their octaves stretched, due to their inharmonicity. 

I have a few softsynths and other virtual instruments (including a virtual Vox Continental combo organ) that allow for variations upon 12-TET (anything within a range of fifty cents above or below the original 12-TET note). And there's one called ZynAddSubFX (which is actually better known as a Linux program) which lets you use any tuning you want to, since it loads Scala tuning files. 

I really should write something in just intonation.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 5, 2010)

^I *LOVE* playing around with crazy scales/tunings/temperaments with Scala. I just wish I had a synth, so I could retune to something nuts and actually _write_ something.


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## Explorer (Oct 5, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Years ago, I heard of a guitar that had a quick-chenge fretboard. That'd be pretty cool if you wanted to be able to change tunings without changing instruments, and it'd still be faster than moveable frets, but you would be limited to whichever tunings for which you had fretboards.



I used to work in a music store where we had our share of inventive people coming in, hoping we'd put up the money to help develop their ideas, which just needed a little push. (Remember the Gravikord/electric kora? I saw every prototype that Bob Grawi brought in, and he was firm in the conviction that, once his patent was granted and they started flying off the shelf, the price would come down. They're currently two grand, which I think was close to the same price as when he was first trying to get us to buy them.)

Anyway, another guy who used to come in was Tom Stone, who had invented a system consisting of a steel plate (to be installed where one's fretboard had been completely removed) and interchangeable rubber fretboards, with different arrangements of intonation. It was definitely going to be the next big thing, at least in the '80s, but he had a hard time explaining, in the context of a music store which catered to a lot of working pros, the advantages of a fretboard which would put you in a different tuning and intonation than all your other band members. This could be viewed as the scheme's fatal flaw, as if you were a regular worker and did, for example, wedding work, you'd be investing your money in a system which made you a bad match when people were flipping through their phonebook for a duo or trio gig. 

I think Tom Stone sold the patent to Mark Rankin, who similarly has not had much luck convincing people to isolate themselves from the vast majority of players on the North American continent. 

----

I have no problem with people pursuing what they want to, of course. I'm trying to teach myself augmented tuned harmonica, for which no learning materials exist. (Since I ordered the tuning custom, based on a theoretical idea, that doesn't surprise me. *laugh*) However, the harmonica was just a small investment, less than the price of a boutique effect pedal... which is quite a bit less than replacing one's fretboard. 

If I were to really be interested in these things, I imagine the easiest course would be to use my Yamaha G10 MIDI guitar controller, and to assign a new tuning to some synthesizer. No fretwork, no permanent changes, just something to noodle on.

However, the fact remains... I like playing music with others. I don't need to be locked into a closet with a handful of others who have invested a lot of money and time to be on that particular frontier. (I hesitate to call it a cutting edge, because I think of cutting edge as indicating something which has chance of acceptance and growth. I've been watching just and microtonal guitars for a few decades, and they continue to be on the edge, always a bridemaid and never a bride.)

If I want new musical territory to explore, I'd rather just work my way again through "The Songwriting Sourcebook: How to Turn Chords into Great Songs," or "Melody: How to Write Great Tunes" by Rikky Rooksby. There's a lot of great material in those books, and not only is it nuts-and-bolts enough for you to learn how to write exactly the kinds of pieces you want ("This kind of chord toughens up a progression. This kind of chord makes things sound mystical and mysterious.), but you can then play those things with others. 

To me, mastering music to where I can do exactly what I want is preferable to noodling and experimenting in places where not only do I not know what the principles are (other than borrowed principles from what I already know), but also where no one else has any good established principles either. I might find something amazing... but I might not.

And, if not, I'd rather make something good now.

All the viewpoints are just my opinions (the factual info about the Gravikord and about the fretboards is accurate, AFAIK), and YMMV....


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## Holy Katana (Oct 5, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2166446 said:


> ^I *LOVE* playing around with crazy scales/tunings/temperaments with Scala. I just wish I had a synth, so I could retune to something nuts and actually _write_ something.


Well, dude, you can get a lot of softsynths for free. Most of them don't support microtonal stuff, but a few do. You don't really even need a MIDI controller (since the only ones that you can actually play without extreme difficulty are those special matrix controllers), just a DAW or some other VST host. I can give you a list of ones that do microtonal stuff if you want.

I found a microtonal sequencer here that I haven't tried out yet: Rationale | Download Rationale software for free at SourceForge.net


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## bostjan (Oct 5, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2166313 said:


> There's also the fact that guitars don't even do 12TET perfectly in the first place.
> 
> It's true that all western music on the guitar *isn't* 12TET, but it wouldn't be untrue to say that non-12TET temperaments and tuning systems are the exception, rather than the rule.



Taking a strobe tuner to a trumpet or french horn and play all twelve notes of the chromatic scale. They won't all be in tune *by design*. 

Also, country music session guys tune their open strings using a temperament chart, so again, these tunings are non-12-EDO by design. 

I don't know all of the western instruments that work this way, but I am fairly certain that deliberate tuning off of the perfect 12-EDO is still widespread.

It is still the "rule," in that 12-EDO is used as the reference for many well-temperaments, but it is a rule that is deliberately broken in pop music, country music, and jazz music; and broken without thought in choral music and in string quartets. Perhaps the artificial source of this rule makes it secondary to the rule of nature, which is just intonation.

Any way you slice it, though, it is just tuning.  I honestly don't think that western guitar players will be willing to give up 12-EDO for anything else. By the same token, I don't think classical indian sitar players will want to start using it, but if one or two of either decided to make the change, I'll be willing to at least give a listen.

I think a lot of microtonal guitar players can't help themselves but to play stuff that sounds delibarately weird. On the other hand, I think a lot of non-micro guitarists can't help themselves but to assume that 12-EDO is the only tuning out there worth doing. I think there is an excellent case to justify trying western-style music with 19-EDO, eastern-style in 17-EDO, and any style in JI.


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## bostjan (Oct 5, 2010)

Explorer said:


> Very good story and very good points...



I agree with what you say. This is why my main guitars are all 12-EDO, with the exception of the one partial fret which was cited by the OP. 

There was a time when I almost plunged myself full force into 19-EDO, as I saw advantages over 12-EDO, but the disadvantages outweighed the advantages, so instead of switching, I decided to get Jon Catler to make me a reasonably-priced guitar. 

If I was made of money, I'd have a seven string guitar in 19-EDO and a five or six string bass in 19-EDO to match. I always wanted to write and record some "in" music in this tuning to show how it worked. I still hope to do so, but as I've gotten older, my priorities have shifted. In the mean time, I only have rough sketches and clips of what I intend to do.

In the mean time, here is a rough sketch of a funk-rock song in 19-EDO that I came up with. Any severe criticism is warranted, IMO.
Link might not work


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 5, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> Well, dude, you can get a lot of softsynths for free. Most of them don't support microtonal stuff, but a few do. You don't really even need a MIDI controller (since the only ones that you can actually play without extreme difficulty are those special matrix controllers), just a DAW or some other VST host. I can give you a list of ones that do microtonal stuff if you want.
> 
> I found a microtonal sequencer here that I haven't tried out yet: Rationale | Download Rationale software for free at SourceForge.net


^NO SCALE SUPPORT!?!? WTF!?

Also, I'd prefer an actual keyboard, but I *DO* love sequencing.


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## bostjan (Oct 6, 2010)

While I'm figuring out what cover to record, I'll be posting some 19-EDO tutorials and stuff on youtube. My user name on youtube is "bostjan64." I uploaded one video last night as a test and three more today, but the picture and sound quality is poor, so I might delete them later, so I won't post direct links here. Plus, the videos posted so far are not very explanitory. If I have time tonight, I'll do some more. This is actually the first time I have ever posted youtube videos.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 7, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Moveable frets are a bit different in that you have to adjust them every time you want to change the tuning. For microtonal guys, this is much better than not being able to move them.


Viols have/had moveable frets.
Viol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Holy Katana (Oct 7, 2010)

I just remembered that you can do a bunch of equal-temperament tunings with Arturia's ARP 2600 V. I _think_ you can with their Moog Modular V as well, but it's not as easy. With the ARP 2600 V, you can adjust the key scaling of the oscillators to get various different tunings. For example, I just tuned it to 19-TET. In Moog Modular V, you have to put in note ranges and stuff. I'll try it out later.


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## abyssalservant (Oct 12, 2010)

BlindingLight7 said:


> !
> 
> 
> Uhhh.....It gets really bad, then good, then bad, then good...GAH




I think the badness has nothing to do with the temperament/fretting system, but rather the composition of the piece. It's perfectly possible to do a chromatic stepwise chord progression - even microtonally - and have it work out effectively. The problem is that we have the semi-competent standard rock/jazz/pop guitarist's compositional weakness - "hey I can play this lick over this chord. Now I'll play it transposed to match this chord. And I'll just do it with a bunch of random chords in a row." There's a lot more to composition to this, whatever most of the aforementioned group may believe regardless of their cutting-edge temperament.


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## ixlramp (Oct 19, 2010)

Xodus said:


> I am mainly interested in the more dissonant EDOs.



13EDO is considered bizarre ...




14EDO lyre guitar and bass lyre guitar (exchangeable microtonal fretboards) ...




16EDO electronic thrash jazz ...




7EDO Kawaii electronic ...




19EDO The excellent electro space pop of geek goddess Elaine Walker ...




I like the Sword Guitars 9 string guitars, at first I wasn't keen, but now I like the minimal, simple design ...







Sword Guitars 31EDO Indian Bubinga top.


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## nicomortem (Aug 2, 2012)

Xodus said:


> Thanks for the responses guys, it really helped clear up my question. Do any of you have experience with Sword Guitars?




Yeah I had an "experience" with Sword Guitars:


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## veshly (Aug 2, 2012)

Ahh man, so sweet. I totally want a guitar like that classical.


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## angelophile (Aug 11, 2012)

Respect to you guys for such interesting knowledge.

Here's some assorted questions I have.

Would the guys who are familiar with all those tunings be more likely to gain perfect pitch?

In the Dante Rosati vids the differences in pitch seemed very flavourful to me. I felt the enthusiasm I had when I was beginning guitar. 

They say most Western people tend to pitch their vowels in the key of C major, probably different in other cultures. Do you reckon Westerners favour Just Intonation when singing? (on their own) even if they only work with/Listen to 12 EDO?

Do other instruments have different overtone series? ( I figure they do, but not sure how)

I've previously enjoyed working with microtonal tunings, with no particular system though.

I'm intending to buy an Oud sometime and learn those Arabic and Turkish scales.

Sorry, I have a difficult question: What happens when those country bends/whammy bar harmonic tricks are done with distortion, and a whole other note seems to appear?

for example with high gain, fret both an E @ 9th fret on the G string and an A @10th fret on the B string and bend the E up to F# A low A seems to appear


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## ixlramp (Aug 11, 2012)

Depends what you mean by 'perfect pitch'. A person with 12EDO perfect pitch may find microtonal music painful to hear, or just 'wrong'. I feel sorry for these people and am very glad i have no 12EDO perfect pitch. Microtonal musicians do not necessarily develop a better 'sense of pitch' unless they are playing a fretless instrument where it is essential to learn the tones. However they certainly develop an appreciation for, and acceptance of, variety of pitch, and also surprisingly come to appreciate 12EDO more since they are able to take a break from ot.

When singing, especially in groups, the voice does tend to adjust to 'Just Intonation', since JI intervals are the exact centres of harmony and are what the ear hears as perfectly tuned harmony. Even string players in orchestras do this, usually unconciously, when playing long chords.

Yeah clarinets for example have odd harmonics only due to being a tube of air effectively closed at one end.

If you want to play 24EDO Arabic scales on a normal fretted guitar try this: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/161530-retune-play-quartertone-scales-microtonal-beginners-guide.html

Here is my post listing 24EDO approximations of Arabic scales: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/3115755-post62.html


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## ixlramp (Aug 18, 2012)

Hello Kitty fretted with 12EDO and 15EDO on the same neck, converted and owned by Benjamin Strange benjamin strange


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## angelophile (Aug 19, 2012)

After reading the posts I'm not sure if I have intonation troubles on my guitar, or if I'm just noticing that my guitar is not in just intonation?

The weather has been really humid here so I probably need a setup.


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