# 8 string Kahler bridge



## AntiTankDog (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm looking at an Agile 8 string, 28.625 scale length. I prefer hardtails, but I can live with a wang bar too. 

The last Kahler I ever owned was on a POS BC Rich Platinum series Warlock. I've been all Floyd, Wilkinson, etc. 

I'd be interested to hear from people who've used the 7 & 8 string Kahlers.

Can you divebomb with them? 

Are they comparable to FR?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 11, 2011)

All Kahlers suffer from the same issue/flaw: the way they hold the ball-end of the string at the bridge. Unlike locking trems (make no mistake, Kahler top mount bridges are NOT locking) the ball of the string is kept in place simply by tension. When you release this tension, such as a dive bomb, the ball-end can shift in its holder and cause tuning instability. 

Kahlers are solid for what they are, just don't expect double-locking-esque tuning stability.


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## manozi (Apr 11, 2011)

Yeah, to once again reference my thread from a while back:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...ile-interceptor-pro-828-hollowway-others.html

The above describes my experience with the 8-string Kahler on the Agile Interceptor Pro 828. I had a big issue with the Kahler's mounting position, which affected the action on the guitar (too high, could not be dropped lower than a certain height without major buzz/unplayability). 

Based on my experience (and there have been a good few others like mine, relating to the same problem, on these boards), I would definitely not recommend the Agiles w/ the Kahler 8-string trems. This is more the problem of a poor design from Agile's side, not necessarily a Kahler issue - the Kahler might work better when mounted properly - but I had a pretty bad experience, myself. 

Have since sent the Agile back and replaced it w/ an Ibanez RG2228. 


-M


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## Eric Christian (Apr 11, 2011)

AntiTankDog said:


> I'm looking at an Agile 8 string, 28.625 scale length. I prefer hardtails, but I can live with a wang bar too.
> 
> The last Kahler I ever owned was on a POS BC Rich Platinum series Warlock. I've been all Floyd, Wilkinson, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Its been my personal experience that 6 String Kahler's instantly go out of tune with the use of the bar. So now just imagine the addition of two more heavy strings. A Kahler isn't even in the same league with a real Floyd Rose in my opinion. On a properly set up Floyd you can push the bar down all the way down to where the strings are completely slack and it will return to more or less in tune. The Kahler's on the Agile guitars have a set screw that turn it into a hardtail though.


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## maccayoung (Apr 11, 2011)

Not good. You can't set them up with a really good action due to the bridge not being countersunk. Not only that, they go out of tune and you can't dive bomb them like a regular floyd. YMMV but I had mine set up by a guitar tech and it still sucks. I have mine locked and don't use it at all. It's pointless.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 11, 2011)

It should be mentioned that a lot of issues folks are having with thier Kahlers is due to Agile still not knowing how to install them properly all the time.


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## Leetlord (Apr 11, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It should be mentioned that a lot of issues folks are having with thier Kahlers is due to Agile still not knowing how to install them properly all the time.


 Good to know. Thanks


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## ra1der2 (Apr 11, 2011)

I own and have owned a crap load of different 8 strings with kahlers and I have to disagree with the general consensus.

IMO the kahler is far superior to a floyd. From changing strings to setting the tension, it's all better than on a floyd. The floyd does have a bit more range in dives but that is because the kahler is designed to keep tension on the strings as you dive.

The most important aspects of it working properly is ensuring it is installed properly and that you understand how to do the setup and maintenance.

You have to lube the saddle rollers and nut or you are going to have fits. 

I guarantee the people complaining about staying in tune are not doing this.

After that, it's cake. Hell, I don't even use the lock nuts. I leave it fully open and have no problem with tuning unless I go completely bat shit crazy on the bar for no apparent reason.


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## TRENCHLORD (Apr 12, 2011)

How can Kahler hold more tension when diving? Never had Kahler. Floydes have treated me great. Can't even imagine playing anything else unless it was a double-locking. I do wish the intonation adjustment screws were a little heavier duty on the floyd originals as I have a couple on the edge of rounding off. Still never stripped a block-locker or nut-locker after 22yrs on floyds. Never had one,but I'm a huge fan of the fixed/nut-locking Mick Thompson style bridge. Those are the best of all worlds except for whammy-wank go-off.


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## Hollowway (Apr 12, 2011)

I've got 3 sixers with Floyds, on seven with a Floyd and two eights with Kahlers. If they made an 8 string OFR I'd take that over the Kahlers. The tuning stability is an issue with the Kahlers, but there are ways to remedy that, like soldering with windings on the strings and the stuff that Ra1der2 mentioned. 
But the big turn off for me is that the cam design interacts poorly with the thickness of the strings. The thicker strings, because of the way they travel over the cam, will lose tension way faster on a dive. So if I press the bar to the body of the guitar the high E only goes down to C#. But the low F# goes completely slack after pressing the bar just a 1/3 of the distance to the body. So if you really want to dive bomb the F#, then this is your lucky day! Otherwise, it's just something you have to work with. Fwiw, I still prefer this to a hardtail on my 8s, and my impending Rico 828 will have one. But you'd have an easier time playing Pickup-Sticks with your butt cheeks* than convincing someone to mass produce 8 string OFRs.

*Courtesy the genius of John Candy!


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## ra1der2 (Apr 12, 2011)

I missed the seating of the ball end comment in my 1st post. I've never had a string come loose from the bridge unless I intentionally took it off.

Earlier, I sat down with one of my flat mount and one of my post mount kahler 8's, set each on my lap and just beat on the trems while looking at the bridge to see if the balls would move at all and they didn't on either. I may be mistaken, but perhaps they changed the design of the string hooks because the hooks are made to move backwards, they are not stationary.

When you read the setup instruction for a kahler, they explain how to bend the string on the ball end side to a certain degree before installing it.

I don't solder anything that just sounds like a good way to waste time while f'n-up your bridge? People actually do this? 

As Hollowway said, the first string to go slack to the point of flub is the F# while the other strings (for me anyways) maintain enough tension to not flub. If this means to you that you cannot dive bomb because you're not getting flub on all the strings, take this as a note.

When playing I never dive the bar far enough to touch to the body. The closest I get it probably 1" - 1 1/2" away or so. My dives are generally a half to a full step.

Also, the fact that you can precisely set the tension means that you must find that balance based on your string tension. If you don't have the cam setup to the right tension of your strings, you will also have tuning issues. It is imperative to have the cam dialed in to the string tension.

Hope this helps


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## sell2792 (Apr 12, 2011)

Kahlers can function flawlessly and stay in tune with no issue if your willing to do a little work for it, and they are locking (single locking, at the nut). However, some small steps can and may need to be taken to ensure it'll never go out of tune with heavy use or sharp bends. I should also mention, I've talked to multiple people who don't do anything special to theirs and they never seem to go out of tune no matter what, but this seems to be with older Kahlers. (I don't think Kahlers quality has gone down, I think Agile isn't too great at installing them yet.)

I think for what your getting versus a Floyd, its worth the time and effort; You don't have a big hole in your guitar, I'm pretty sure their are more contact points with the body then with a fully floating or blocked FR that only has 2 or 3, Kahlers are so smooth and you can make the pull super soft, and squeels and harmonics are a breeze.


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## UnderTheSign (Apr 12, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It should be mentioned that a lot of issues folks are having with thier Kahlers is due to Agile still not knowing how to install them properly all the time.


^. 
I guess it comes down to personal preference. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, Kahler all the way for me  Lookwise, feel-wise. 

Kahlers, I think, (or at least around here) are still less used and sold than Floyds or strat trems, but when you find a tech that knows his way around one and can install & set it up properly... You're set.


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## Hollowway (Apr 12, 2011)

ra1der2 said:


> I don't solder anything that just sounds like a good way to waste time while f'n-up your bridge? People actually do this?


 
Good question. I don't solder the windings on the strings, myself. I think the theory there is that if you don't do it the windings will slip some and allow the string length to increase and drop the pitch. I've never had the issue, and it could be something having to do with the brand of the strings and how well they're wound. But, I definitely adhere to the bening of the ball end to 90 degrees (on the lowest couple of strings).


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## ra1der2 (Apr 12, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Good question. I don't solder the windings on the strings, myself. I think the theory there is that if you don't do it the windings will slip some and allow the string length to increase and drop the pitch. I've never had the issue, and it could be something having to do with the brand of the strings and how well they're wound. But, I definitely adhere to the bening of the ball end to 90 degrees (on the lowest couple of strings).



LOL I see what you mean now, I initially was thinking they were like soldering the ball end to the bridge  

After realizing that, I can say that I have had an .008 come unwound at the ball end twice in a row within 10 minutes of one another on my 30.5" scale 8. I ended up having to use a .009, the .008 just couldn't handle the tension during trem activity at that scale length.


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## maccayoung (Apr 12, 2011)

People are saying as long as you find a guitar tech or someone who knows how to set up a kahler correctly you'll be fine. Fair enough, but that's also my main issue. I can set up and maintain a floyd myself, go absolutely nuts on the bar and it's still in tune. The kahler I've tried to set up myself, I've had a guitar tech set it up, and still no luck. 

The kahler people are talking about break angles, filing down the screws, countersinking the body, changing string gauges, etc, etc. The floyds just work.


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## sell2792 (Apr 13, 2011)

Thats because your use to a Floyd and know how to work on one. Kahlers have a learning curve and are more complicated but are well worth the effort once you figure it out. Plus, you can lock down a Kahler so its not functioning as a trem... Just sayin'


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 13, 2011)

Lets not turn this into a "my bridge can beat up your bridge" debate. Everyone has different needs as a player.


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## sell2792 (Apr 13, 2011)

If that was directed towards me, I was simply stating that a Floyd is more practical for him because that is what he's use to, but if he learned how to work on a Kahler it has alot of advantages...Thats not to say a Floyd doesn't have certain advantages over the Kahler.


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## maccayoung (Apr 13, 2011)

Yup you are right, I am used to a floyd. I'm not bashing kahler, because I really wanted mine to work. I visited the website, checked out forums, and youtube vids on how to set it up. I gave it a good shot setting up the bridge over a few nights. When that didn't work I took it to a guitar tech. It was better, but it still didn't stay in tune so now it's locked.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 13, 2011)

I played a guitar with a kahler on once, didn't feel right to me. Solid, just very odd feeling.


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