# What are the cons of a multi-scale?



## linguos (Jul 13, 2012)

I've been looking around and I'm finding this very difficult to educate myself on, however, it seems that many popular bridges and pickups aren't manufactured fanned--for example Hipshot and Bare Knuckle. Is this true and is there any other important things to know?

Thanks


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 13, 2012)

The availability of hardware and pickups is pretty much the only deterrent for most folks, though that gap is quickly being filled by other makers who are catering to the fanned crowd. 

Not to mention, since 99.9% of fanned instruments are custom, having custom bridges and pickups made isn't really too difficult and really adds a small premium to the price.


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## troyguitar (Jul 13, 2012)

Biggest con is no good trem designs that I've seen. If only I weren't too lazy to make one myself 

Other than that, Max is right in that everything else is pretty easily solved.


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## Maniacal (Jul 13, 2012)

Some chords are basically impossible when you get to the higher frets. 

Although, that is on my BM and the fanning on the higher frets is quite extreme. 

Pickups are expensive, I upgraded mine and they cost £400 for the pair.


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## capoeiraesp (Jul 13, 2012)

Max is about right. I love Multiscale instruments so much so that I'm going to make one (under careful guidance) in January. 
In terms of hardware and pickups, I won't be changing my bridge pieces and if ever I want new pickups Ormsby can provide whatever I need.


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## no_dice (Jul 13, 2012)

Like others have said, some chord shapes become really awkward (though others become easier), pickup/bridge selection becomes limited, and some techs will look at you like you're crazy if you bring it to them.


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## Winspear (Jul 13, 2012)

no_dice said:


> some techs will look at you like you're crazy if you bring it to them.



I'd say that's a plus 

I don't have mine yet, but with regards to the chord shapes...
I'd imagine there becomes a point when you would want to switch fingers round to play certain chords. For example a 5-7-5-7 barre chord you might usually use your middle finger on the lower 7 and your ring finger on the higher 7. As you progress higher up the fretboard past the parallel fret, switching these two fingers round would become more natural for the hand.


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## Danukenator (Jul 13, 2012)

Biggest con could be "feel." Fanned frets feel very different from regular frets. While there is an adjustment period, it still feels different. 

That and the lack of hardware choices.


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## no_dice (Jul 13, 2012)

Danukenator said:


> Biggest con could be "feel." Fanned frets feel very different from regular frets. While there is an adjustment period, it still feels different.
> 
> That and the lack of hardware choices.



True, though I think some might gel with the feel of them better than others. I didn't have too much trouble adjusting, and I let my friend use mine for some recording when he was at my house. He had never played a multi-scale before and he said it felt great.


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## MF_Kitten (Jul 13, 2012)

it's a bit hard to get used to if the fan is too big, mostly because of the apparent optical illusion of the angle being less extreme than it really is from the playing perspective. Your mind kinda wants to compensate for the difference caused by perspective, but the fact that the frets are already angled makes you over-compensate, so you play the fret above the one you aimed at. This is more and more apparent the higher the string. It's because you look at the side dots, find the fret you want to play, follow it visually down to the string you want, and hit the note, but with extreme angles you sometimes follow the fret halfway, then "jump" to the next fret and follow that the rest of the way.

It's part of the "getting used to it" part, though, and it's mostly at bigger fans that you get that effect. If i am getting a fanned fret instrument, it'll have a very tiny fan, unless it either has very many strings, or is a 4-5 string bass.


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## linguos (Jul 13, 2012)

If I were to want a BK sound, how could I achieve this on a multi-scale? Wwould it have to be custom and if so who would be my options and what sort of price?

..

That bit about not following the right fret from the apparent marker is funny stuff, I could imagine that happening and I could see myself getting very frustrated. Trying to play some fast, pretty diatonic tapping and it ends up sounding like some Stravinsky atonal monster. Then I'd throw the guitar on the couch in frustration and walk away seething only to return and realize I have a fucking fanned fret eight string and I'd promptly sit back down and make music.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 13, 2012)

BK sound? 


If you're talking about bareknuckles....they make fanned pickups although only at 10 degrees.


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## linguos (Jul 13, 2012)

I really can't decide between fanned or normal. I just can't.

Having good tension and intonation is very important for me, but I don't want some obscure and potentially junk pickups, I'm not sure whether heavier gauged strings on the low end will compare to the quality of a multi-scale. On the other hand, I really would enjoy having the options of conventional pickups and bridges.

Could somebody please make a compelling and decisive argument?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 13, 2012)

I went through the same thing when trying to figure out if I wanted my Vik to be fanned. Use fretfind, print out a template and see how you like it. 

You can easily get good tension out of guitars with a regular scale too with progressive tension sets.

The reason I decided to go fanned is because it feels fucking awesome.


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## linguos (Jul 13, 2012)

But what about hardware?

There's three guitars I'm leaning toward right right now in my price range..

Carvin DC800 <- my safe option 
(also somewhat looking into a Siggery heresy style which is non fanned)

or hence the relevance of this thread:

Siggery custom or I guess an Aracnid which comes with a Siggery bridge and pickups, I'm beyond skeptical about that..

Or a Ran Crusher FF8 which comes with Merlin pickups.. I've never even heard of those.


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## Brohoodofsteel75 (Jul 13, 2012)

Well, if you want a multiscale then Carvin is out. Multiscales are awesome so I'd recommend going to Tom Drinkwater at Oakland Axe Factory. His work is really REALLY good.


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## Brohoodofsteel75 (Jul 13, 2012)

Also Kurt at rondo music said that they'll be having more pendulum 8's by the end of the year.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 13, 2012)

Most fanned guitars use ABM saddles which are abm. Abm. A-b-m


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## mountainjam (Jul 13, 2012)

Imo the only con is the price. Fanned instruments cost more.


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## Winspear (Jul 14, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> BK sound?
> 
> 
> If you're talking about bareknuckles....they make fanned pickups although only at 10 degrees.



Interesting. Where did you hear this?
The most I've heard is that my friend who has a deposit put down wants fanned BKPs and Dylan said he could get some.

I presumed they'd be custom made and could be any angle you want. What kinda scale lengths/perp fret gives 10 degrees? I'm thinking like Mishas' Strandberg v2...God damn that's small. Kinda ruins a few plans I had in mind


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 14, 2012)

Theyve been doing them for months now. I talked to them directly....


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## Winspear (Jul 14, 2012)

Just found this: https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/downloads/dimensions/humbuckers/angled_7_string.pdf

I guess that's it. Yeah, I've read a bit in the OAF thread and know people have them on order, but apart from that it was only Bulbs I've seen and I had no idea there would be a limitation on the angle


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## Solodini (Jul 14, 2012)

One thing I imagine would be quite different with fan frets would be bending a string. Everything past the perpendicular fret would need to be bent in the direction of the longer scale, if you didn't want to fight the contrasting effect of the fret being slanted backwards.


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## DancingCloseToU (Jul 14, 2012)

Solodini said:


> One thing I imagine would be quite different with fan frets would be bending a string. Everything past the perpendicular fret would need to be bent in the direction of the longer scale, if you didn't want to fight the contrasting effect of the fret being slanted backwards.



 Just always bend towards you?


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## Prydogga (Jul 14, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Most fanned guitars use ABM saddles which are abm. Abm. A-b-m



A...B....M? ABM. Oh...... ABM!


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## linguos (Jul 14, 2012)

Brohoodofsteel75 said:


> Well, if you want a multiscale then Carvin is out. Multiscales are awesome so I'd recommend going to Tom Drinkwater at Oakland Axe Factory. His work is really REALLY good.



I'm honestly really not digging on the aesthetics of OAF's, but then again, I've only seen a few. The ones on his website aren't for me, however, you aren't the first to suggest OAF to me. Is there something I'm missing somewhere? I'm sure the quality is great, I just don't want that shape if it's going to be my only decent guitar for a while. 

On a different note, I just discovered XEN, who seems affiliated with OAF in some way, and I'm really digging on the shape.


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## Solodini (Jul 15, 2012)

DancingCloseToU said:


> Just always bend towards you?



Low strings.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 15, 2012)

linguos said:


> I'm honestly really not digging on the aesthetics of OAF's, but then again, I've only seen a few. The ones on his website aren't for me, however, you aren't the first to suggest OAF to me. Is there something I'm missing somewhere? I'm sure the quality is great, I just don't want that shape if it's going to be my only decent guitar for a while.
> 
> On a different note, I just discovered XEN, who seems affiliated with OAF in some way, and I'm really digging on the shape.



They are very very affiliated. Have you seen the new headlesss/fanned 7 run?


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## Durero (Jul 15, 2012)

Solodini said:


> One thing I imagine would be quite different with fan frets would be bending a string. Everything past the perpendicular fret would need to be bent in the direction of the longer scale, if you didn't want to fight the contrasting effect of the fret being slanted backwards.



In my experience the angle of the frets doesn't have nearly as strong of an effect on bends as you're imagining. It's very subtle and easy to adjust to.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 15, 2012)

I wonder if it's more apparent on wider fans or something. But I agree. My pendulum 8 has a 1.5" fan and I don't notice this phenomenon.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I wonder if it's more apparent on wider fans or something. But I agree. My pendulum 8 has a 1.5" fan and I don't notice this phenomenon.



The 2.5" fan I'm using doesn't lead to any issues when bending either.


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## linguos (Jul 15, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> They are very very affiliated. Have you seen the new headlesss/fanned 7 run?



Nope, Google isn't producing anything and neither is the OAF thread. Although, admittedly, the search wasn't exhaustive and I declined to read a single word of the thread. I'm really hoping some benevolent fellow here might link me to it.


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## Electric Wizard (Jul 15, 2012)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/dealers-group-buys/200562-oakland-axe-factory-autumn-2012-a.html

4 out of 10 first page results on Google were for that thread by the way.


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## linguos (Jul 16, 2012)

Electric Wizard said:


> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/dealers-group-buys/200562-oakland-axe-factory-autumn-2012-a.html
> 
> 4 out of 10 first page results on Google were for that thread by the way.



I'm new to this, the Google result "_5) Number of strings - 8!!!!! would really only be interested in a 7 if it was ... is always too much for a custom headless fanned 8 string guitar._" threw me off as I was expecting something more concrete. I've got other non-musical hobbies so I'm really trying to accelerate this process by asking questions instead of meandering through walls of text.


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## Electric Wizard (Jul 16, 2012)

That one's worth meandering through. The summary of it is that Tom's doing a licensed XEN design for this run. There are lots of pictures and other good info in the thread.

OAF has the advantage of being in the states unlike Siggery and Ran, and Tom's reputation here seems absolutely stellar. The thread's worth a read if you're looking to drop money on something fanned.


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## linguos (Jul 16, 2012)

Electric Wizard said:


> That one's worth meandering through. The summary of it is that Tom's doing a licensed XEN design for this run. There are lots of pictures and other good info in the thread.
> 
> OAF has the advantage of being in the states unlike Siggery and Ran, and Tom's reputation here seems absolutely stellar. The thread's worth a read if you're looking to drop money on something fanned.



Well, I'm having some serious issues with something admittedly superficial, and I'm not sure what you call it, let's say the shoulder on the side facing the player. It sort of makes me think of a metal looking telecaster. I do like it in some odd way, but.. it's not striking a great chord with me, and especially after peeking at that new XEN design it's creaming my twinkie to say the least, depending on the execution I could see myself liking it's aesthetics as much as a Vik which currently ranks number one on my most gorgeous looking guitar list.

This being said I'm going to read the thread to try to understand OAF more and I'll be waiting desperately for these XEN prototypes.

BTW, since XEN is so affiliated to OAF, does anybody have any great faith in it?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 16, 2012)

Eric, xen's designer (creator?) posts here, he is a very nice guy but I dont think anyone has played a xen yet


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## Cremated (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm going for the OAF if everything goes as planned. He's actually offering the slanted BKP's or angled Lace of your choice, so if that's what you're looking for, jump on board. Basically it will be the XEN design, both 7 and 8 strings, ash body, maple neck, but you can upgrade to any woods available that Tom will work with, ABM hardware, 6105/6100 jumbo fretwire (forgot which), 25.5-27'' fan. Base price around $1700. Check out the thread. There's quite a few mockups starting at page 13, to give you an idea of the finished product.


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## linguos (Jul 16, 2012)

Cremated said:


> I'm going for the OAF if everything goes as planned. He's actually offering the slanted BKP's or angled Lace of your choice, so if that's what you're looking for, jump on board. Basically it will be the XEN design, both 7 and 8 strings, ash body, maple neck, but you can upgrade to any woods available that Tom will work with, ABM hardware, 6105/6100 jumbo fretwire (forgot which), 25.5-27'' fan. Base price around $1700. Check out the thread. There's quite a few mockups starting at page 13, to give you an idea of the finished product.



I'm getting a little confused about the OAF using the XEN's design. I'm sure this has to do with not being well enough acquainted with OAF's standard design.

This is the proposed design on upcoming OAF run, correct?







And here is the XEN I'm digging.






While I see the similarities that one shoulder makes all the damn difference in the world for me. Unfortunately, I don't think I can be knit picky about it, it's too good to pass up.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 16, 2012)

Xen ftw. I wanna play one.


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## DancingCloseToU (Jul 16, 2012)

Solodini said:


> Low strings.



I suppose that is kinda strange now that I really put some though into it. 
Give me a break if I'm wrong, but what from what I can understand... Bending notes toward you _before_ the perpendicular fret would require you to bend farther to achieve the same notes and vice versa. Likewise, Achieving the semi or whole tone bends would be easier when bending the notes toward you _after_ the perpendicular fret... So I suppose there are some problematic areas of the fretboard when it comes to bending notes on a multiscale instrument.

This just opens up a whole can of worms as far as physics/math/tension is concerned. :mindblown:


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## Electric Wizard (Jul 16, 2012)

linguos said:


> I'm getting a little confused about the OAF using the XEN's design. I'm sure this has to do with not being well enough acquainted with OAF's standard design.
> 
> This is the proposed design on upcoming OAF run, correct?
> *pics*
> While I see the similarities that one shoulder makes all the damn difference in the world for me. Unfortunately, I don't think I can be knit picky about it, it's too good to pass up.


That was a slightly altered design that was proposed. The one that we're going with is:






There's a slight difference in the angles on the top of the body between this and what you posted. If you check the last page of that thread, there's also a drawing of what it would look like with slanted BareKnuckles.

But yes, this isn't the design of a current XEN model, but was one designed by them for the OAF run.


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## Durero (Jul 16, 2012)

DancingCloseToU said:


> I suppose that is kinda strange now that I really put some though into it.
> Give me a break if I'm wrong, but what from what I can understand... Bending notes toward you _before_ the perpendicular fret would require you to bend farther to achieve the same notes and vice versa. Likewise, Achieving the semi or whole tone bends would be easier when bending the notes toward you _after_ the perpendicular fret... So I suppose there are some problematic areas of the fretboard when it comes to bending notes on a multiscale instrument.
> 
> This just opens up a whole can of worms as far as physics/math/tension is concerned. :mindblown:



I have to respond to this just to prevent someone else from stumbling upon your post and thinking that this is an issue when in fact it is not.

If I didn't have any experience playing fanned fret guitars I'm sure I'd be wondering about this issue myself. But please take the word of those who actually play multi scale instruments before giving too much weight to idle speculation, no matter how logical it may seem. There have already been three fanned fret players posting responses to this issue in this thread:




Durero said:


> In my experience the angle of the frets doesn't have nearly as strong of an effect on bends as you're imagining. It's very subtle and easy to adjust to.





Konfyouzd said:


> I wonder if it's more apparent on wider fans or something. But I agree. My pendulum 8 has a 1.5" fan and I don't notice this phenomenon.





MaxOfMetal said:


> The 2.5" fan I'm using doesn't lead to any issues when bending either.



(For reference the guitar I'm referring to in my quote above has a 4" fan.)


I believe the main reason why slanted frets don't create a meaningful problem for bending is that guitarists are forced to learn to control the pitch of our bends with our ears rather than our eyes.

If you measure the amount of tension it takes to bend a string by a given amount, say 1 semitone, you'll find that each string behaves vastly differently from the others. Try to feel how much force it takes to bend your high E string up 1 semitone then compare that to how much force it takes to bend the G-string up a semitone. (Assuming an unwound G-string.) The difference is pretty huge.

Not only is each string different in it's bending forces, each fret of that string also differs. Try a two semitone bend at the 1st fret of any string, then compare that to a two semitone bend at the 12th fret of the same string. Big difference.

The point is that we are constantly adjusting to variations in bending force in order to bend any fretted note to the pitch we're aiming for. While it's true that slanted frets will affect bending feel in theory, in practice it's barely discernible amidst the vastly wider variations in bending feel caused by string gage, tuning pitch, and fret location.


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## DancingCloseToU (Jul 17, 2012)

All of these things you mentioned make sense. I'm not trying to "idly speculate", nor have I overlooked all of this. 

Moreover, I can agree for sure (Being that I own 2 multiscale guitars - a 7 string @ 25-27" and a 9 string @ 27-30"), that bending on a multiscale fretboard isn't noticeably any different than on any of my other guitars... I was just simply trying to speculate on the physics behind bending a fanned fretboard vs. a regular board (which I understand doesn't matter if the difference is hardly noticeable if at all anyway). 

I also think that what you said about using your ear, not your eye to bend is brilliant. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to say "This is the problem with fanned boards".


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## Durero (Jul 17, 2012)

^ The main intention of my post was to address this issue for the benefit of others wondering about multi-scale fretboards. This same question has appeared in several other threads over the years and it's easy for misunderstandings to spread.

I certainly read much more into your "problematic areas of the fretboard" comment than you intended. That's awesome that you already play fanned guitars


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## linguos (Jul 17, 2012)

Regarding the OAF autumn run I've already read the entire thread a couple days ago and been sufficiently educated. Lots of food for thought. For example, I could seriously kill myself for not having been around during that Vik SS.org run, and on a more practical note, the slanted BKP option (save the 8 string Blackhawk) has me thinking. At that price, it's a way better deal than Carvin or the Siggery I was contemplating. At this point the SC is beginning to look awfully attractive suddenly.


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