# EBMM Abasi Kaizen



## technomancer (Jun 2, 2022)

Well this is funky 

















Watch Tosin Abasi demo his futuristic new Ernie Ball Music Man Kaizen with an all-new song


The seven-string machine – first introduced at this year's NAMM show and now available to order – comes in two sleek-as-hell finishes, with EBMM's patent-pending Heat Treated pickup technology and a multi-scale design




www.guitarworld.com


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## Thesius (Jun 2, 2022)

What is a heat treated pickup


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## StevenC (Jun 2, 2022)

Feel like this is missing something


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## technomancer (Jun 2, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Feel like this is missing something



Astronomical pricing for mediocre import quality?


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## Jake (Jun 2, 2022)

I can't decide if I love it or hate it. I'm gonna have to play one to decide lol


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## StevenC (Jun 2, 2022)

technomancer said:


> Astronomical pricing for mediocre import quality?


If they can do an 8 string JP and a fanned trem on an Abasi, why can't they make one guitar I like?


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## Church2224 (Jun 2, 2022)

I want to try it at least....


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## FitRocker33 (Jun 2, 2022)

Thesius said:


> What is a heat treated pickup


An answer to a problem that never existed


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## ItWillDo (Jun 2, 2022)

Wasn't planning on buying new stuff this year, but things change quick around here.


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## Randy (Jun 2, 2022)

I like it. In principal it kinda serves no purpose but its a cool looking EBMM ERG so right on.


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## Dayn (Jun 2, 2022)

Unexpected. Very interesting. I like the design. The 24.75-25.5" scale is different.

I'll never get it but I'm very happy to see companies pushing boundaries further.

I'm a little bit put off by the fact that, despite the fan being exactly the same as my Strandberg with a trem, the bridge pickup is even further away.


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## Millul (Jun 2, 2022)

What the shit is this fuck???


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 2, 2022)

I like the body design. That's about it.


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## mlp187 (Jun 2, 2022)

I like it a lot. Really hoping they make more than 100 of these.


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## Strobe (Jun 2, 2022)

I dig it, and I am an EBMM fan boy. Maybe the pickups are like those expensive cryogenically treated pickups Seymour Duncan had in the past?


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## lost_horizon (Jun 2, 2022)

Whats this? The 17th different set of pickups that Abasi uses?


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## cardinal (Jun 2, 2022)

Holy shit I love it


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## SpaceDock (Jun 2, 2022)

The corporation I work for uses the slogan “Kaizen is our way of life” so this guitar would remind me too much of work I think.


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## Agalloch (Jun 2, 2022)

Oh shit! Music Man is coming for Aristides' Future Cyber Lazer Guitars. I'm digging it.


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## Agalloch (Jun 2, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> The corporation I work for uses the slogan “Kaizen is our way of life” so this guitar would remind me too much of work I think.



Do you work for an evil cyberpunk megacorp?


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## SpaceDock (Jun 2, 2022)

More


tofudoom said:


> Do you work for an evil cyberpunk megacorp?


more or less, yeah


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## syzygy (Jun 2, 2022)

It's interesting but I have to wonder what the purpose of this guitar is beyond just another source of income. Maybe the pickups have some unique tonal quality that the Fishmans don't? (Which is hard to picture considering that the Fishman Abasis are designed to cover so much tonal ground)


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## Empryrean (Jun 2, 2022)

Looks like a more angly broderick. I’d try one but I’m not sold on looks alone


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## budda (Jun 2, 2022)

I feel like Kaizen was something that happened at my job a year or two ago


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jun 2, 2022)

I like it. I think Tosin has a good eye for modern but balanced guitar designs, which Music Man does not always get right (I'm looking at you Luke and JP15). I'd like to play one at least.


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## Crungy (Jun 2, 2022)

School me on this because I don't know a lot about Tosin, but I thought he had his own guitar company?


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## Agalloch (Jun 2, 2022)

Those new heat-treated pickups are coming in a bunch of Music Man models. There's more info here: https://www.guitarworld.com/news/ernie-ball-heat-treated-pickups-namm-2022


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## StevenC (Jun 2, 2022)

syzygy said:


> It's interesting but I have to wonder what the purpose of this guitar is beyond just another source of income. Maybe the pickups have some unique tonal quality that the Fishmans don't? (Which is hard to picture considering that the Fishman Abasis are designed to cover so much tonal ground)


Probably the resources to make a fanned whammy bar.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 2, 2022)

tofudoom said:


> Those new heat-treated pickups are coming in a bunch of Music Man models. There's more info here: https://www.guitarworld.com/news/ernie-ball-heat-treated-pickups-namm-2022









Also see: Every new fucking pickup design. Seriously this is the most generic description you could go for. 

Also not a fan of the guitar. Once again a straight pickup on a multiscale design uuuugh. I know why they have to do it, but still not a fan.


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## Legion (Jun 2, 2022)

I actually kinda dig it.

IDK if I'm weird


But I dig it


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## jco5055 (Jun 2, 2022)

Yeah I’m into it, definitely hoping since it’s ebmm it will be easy to try in a GC or similar…the infinite radius and stuff is cool. I wonder what the neck profile will be like, and how good the trem is compared to a Floyd


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## gunshow86de (Jun 2, 2022)

I'm liking the silver sparkley one. I like this headstock better than the regular EBMM one too. Looks kind of like a beveled Stingray.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 2, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> Yeah I’m into it, definitely hoping since it’s ebmm it will be easy to try in a GC or similar…the infinite radius and stuff is cool. I wonder what the neck profile will be like, and how good the trem is compared to a Floyd


infinite radius is a fancy way of saying it basically has a flat af board


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## Randy (Jun 2, 2022)

Crungy said:


> School me on this because I don't know a lot about Tosin, but I thought he had his own guitar company?


Technically Abasi just has his guitar ghost built, so he doesn't have a "guitar company" as much as a brand/design. So to some extent, this is just EBMM building Abasis (instead of Grover Jackson or WMI or Falbo or whoever), but EBMM probably wouldn't submit to making guitars with someone else's name on it, so the compromise is a different design that's really just an EBMM Tosin Abasi signature as opposed to an Abasi Inc collab. Sorta.


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## Randy (Jun 2, 2022)

EBMM Keyser Söze


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## syzygy (Jun 2, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> I'm liking the silver sparkley one. I like this headstock better than the regular EBMM one too.


I think these are all good colors; I was worried we'd get some awful buckeye burl garbage but the silver and the not-quite-seafoam both speak to me. Don't think it'd be my first or second choice for a buy, but it's neat that these specs exist on the market, I guess


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## bjjman (Jun 2, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> The corporation I work for uses the slogan “Kaizen is our way of life” so this guitar would remind me too much of work I think.


This is probably the best reason I've ever heard for not buying a guitar. My company's slogan on it would kill my appetite for any guitar.


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## spudmunkey (Jun 2, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Also see: Every new fucking pickup design. Seriously this is the most generic description you could go for.
> 
> Also not a fan of the guitar. Once again a straight pickup on a multiscale design uuuugh. I know why they have to do it, but still not a fan.


"Very well-rounded, with excellent articulation without sounding sterile. Great for any genre. Full-bodied lows, and sparkling highs, with mids that are just-right."

OK, so...the neck pickup is angled, but the bridge pickup isn't? An interesting choice.

Damn, that low B saddle looks like it's a mile away from the fulcrum point. I wonder if that's why they kept the bridge pickup straight. If you dive, the saddle would rise up. If the pickup were closer, there'd be a larger gap between the string and pickup, which would have an effect on output. But by pulling the pickup further away, the angle of the string would be closer to the pickups. Or is that effect less of an issue than it is sometimes made out to be?

I know the Majesty has a similar tiny pickup switch, but it seems like it'd be under-sized for this down by the other controls. Is that my imagination?

The horns remind me a lot of something like an Orbsmby Goliath.


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## Leviathus (Jun 2, 2022)

Kinda neat but not my thing.


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## Empryrean (Jun 2, 2022)

The more I keep looking at it the more I wish they put a leg scoop in the guitar like strandberg and Aristide have. So much “modern” guitar appeal in the marketing but leaves a lot to be desired. My lazy ass wants a good comfortable sitting guitar


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## Albake21 (Jun 2, 2022)

Well this is uh... interesting? Not sure if I like it or not yet.

At the least, I appreciate someone doing something radically different.


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## Mboogie7 (Jun 2, 2022)

What the fuck. Fuck the what? I think I dig it? Gonna sleep on this and reevaluate in the morning


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## CanserDYI (Jun 2, 2022)

I love the shape. I hate the pickup orientations.


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## StevenC (Jun 2, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> But still not a fan.


I get it!


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## cardinal (Jun 2, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> I'm liking the silver sparkley one. I like this headstock better than the regular EBMM one too. Looks kind of like a beveled Stingray.


I love these. 

Straight bridge pickup here doesn't look worse than an angled bridge pickup on a straight-scale Strat or Gunslinger etc. 

I would look absolutely ridiculous playing one of these but man I love it.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Jun 2, 2022)

i dig it


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 2, 2022)

StevenC said:


> I get it!



Ron Howard: It was, indeed, actually a fan.


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## broangiel (Jun 2, 2022)

mlp187 said:


> I like it a lot. Really hoping they make more than 100 of these.


Has it been stated this is a limited run?!


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## mlp187 (Jun 2, 2022)

broangiel said:


> Has it been stated this is a limited run?!


No, I haven’t found any other info about this guitar yet. Just thinking outloud and adding nothing to the conversation as usual.


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## sell2792 (Jun 2, 2022)

I hate to say it, but it's growing on me. Most of the other 22' EBMM stuff was kinda underwhelming by comparison.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Jun 2, 2022)

I’m going to say it, EBMM’s headstock works on very few of their designs. The Majesty is so close to being cool, just like this one.


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## MrWulf (Jun 2, 2022)

Personally wouldnt use Abasi as a collab for a "modern" guitar given that other brands/artists like Schecter KM7 series or Jackson MM series is out there. Also, it looked really wonky for some reasons, like it is innovative cutting edge look for its own sake (just like Abasi Concepts, hilariously) rather than having a specific need in mind. 

Abasi fans will happily cut open their CC for this though, given how much they paid for mediocre Abasi with price tag of a USA custom shop.


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## Mathemagician (Jun 2, 2022)

I hope we can pre order low serial numbers. 

I say that as someone who does actually like that off-blue model a lot.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 2, 2022)

24.75 - 25.5 7 string. I hate it. 

24.75 - 25.5 six string. I would only strongly dislike it.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 2, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> 24.75 - 25.5 7 string. I hate it.
> 
> 24.75 - 25.5 six string. I would only strongly dislike it.


You know, this would have been a good chance for EBMM to finally release a baritone 7-string. 25''(+)- 26''+ multiscale.


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## Kyle Jordan (Jun 2, 2022)

Neat. Wouldn’t buy, but still neat.


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## StevenC (Jun 3, 2022)

It looks like a Claas


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## jwade (Jun 3, 2022)

The headstock is rad. Not into the 0.75" fan though, such a minimal possible tension benefit there.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 3, 2022)

For me the Majesty was a grower. 
But the more I look at this guitar, the more I hate it.


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## bjjman (Jun 3, 2022)

What's the deal with the tuners? I've got a sneaking suspicion I've seen this design before but I can't place it.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 3, 2022)

Jason Richardson is like those sons of bitches.


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## Masoo2 (Jun 3, 2022)

Empryrean said:


> The more I keep looking at it the more I wish they put a leg scoop in the guitar like strandberg and Aristide have. So much “modern” guitar appeal in the marketing but leaves a lot to be desired. My lazy ass wants a good comfortable sitting guitar


you get it dude.



IwantTacos said:


> Jason Richardson is like those sons of bitches.


without any knowledge of how this actually went down, I'm guessing Jason was involved given their shared tenures in Born of Osiris and pretty close history with one another. 

well, that and seeing how well the JR sigs have done


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 3, 2022)

Love it
Both in shape and spirit

Would love to try one, but I'm sure no store in Italy will have one and it will be way out of my budget


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## Hollowway (Jun 3, 2022)

I feel like it looks more retro futuristic than futuristic. But I’m not a fan of the shape. And the HS doesn’t match at all, IMO. I’m a fan of funky shapes, but I just don’t share the same taste as Tosin in this regard. (I don’t like the Larada shape, either.)


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## narad (Jun 3, 2022)

For once, I like it. I'm probably going to buy it. I wish the headstock was a little bit less curvy -- the radiuses there are way bigger than those on the body, which are almost straight lines. That one little thing is my only complaint.

Also, I wanted to bring about like a spirit of "change", but I couldn't name a guitar "change", so I translated it into a different language and now that's the name of the guitar... About as sophisticated as getting the kanji for 'strength" tattood on your arm.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 3, 2022)

The straight pickup undoes the tonal benefits of the fan, would have been better to stay as a straight scale rather than compromise tone for a tremelo. 

Cool to see partnering with Ernie Ball though.


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## Mura (Jun 3, 2022)

It looks like an Albert Lee model with a modern arrangement.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 3, 2022)

Masoo2 said:


> you get it dude.
> 
> 
> without any knowledge of how this actually went down, I'm guessing Jason was involved given their shared tenures in Born of Osiris and pretty close history with one another.
> ...



JR - Hey can I get a signature guitar shape?

EBMM - We've got a signature guitar shape at home.


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## narad (Jun 3, 2022)

C'mon, the 7-string cutlass is one of their nicest looking guitars.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 3, 2022)

Mura said:


> It looks like an Albert Lee model with a modern arrangement.


except the albert lee is cooler.


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## Mitri (Jun 3, 2022)

Lorcan Ward said:


> The straight pickup undoes the tonal benefits of the fan, would have been better to stay as a straight scale rather than compromise tone for a tremelo.


It might be nice if there was a visual reference to show both node location and pickup placement. 

I had the same concerns about Shredzilla. Given my experience thusfar, I think the issue of pickup placement might not be an actual issue or problem. Maybe it's just a style or preference.


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## StevenC (Jun 3, 2022)

narad said:


> C'mon, the 7-string cutlass is one of their nicest looking guitars.


That's enough sake for you


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## Mitri (Jun 3, 2022)

Thesius said:


> What is a heat treated pickup


Temperature can influence magnetic properties. 

I guess they abandoned the tonewoods argument and went directly for tonemetals.


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## narad (Jun 3, 2022)

StevenC said:


> That's enough sake for you



No it isn't.


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## NeonBob (Jun 3, 2022)

I dig it! Once the the 6 string is out, i will give it a try.


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## Vegetta (Jun 3, 2022)

The more I look at it the more the triangle/shovel shaped body contour behind the bridge pops out and the more I dislike it.

I really did not like the other vid EBMM put out for the new pickups - They did not sound good at all.


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## MFB (Jun 3, 2022)

Those horns really don't fit the rest of the model, it looks like they straight cut them off a Warrior


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## works0fheart (Jun 3, 2022)

I actually think this thing looks pretty cool, but the neck heel looks super chunky, which is a big L for me. I'm also curious on the exact specs such as materials and whatnot. Price too, but I'm sure it'll be up there a bit. Slanted neck pickup but straight bridge seems odd too. 

I'm not familiar with the tuning machines used on the headstock so if anyone knows anything about those I'd be interested to hear.


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## Musiscience (Jun 3, 2022)

This is a hard pass for me. Also, this was the opportunity for EBMM to tap into the 8 string market but they didn’t? Couldn’t imagine a better spokesperson than Tosin for a company to launch an 8 string line. 

Also, EBMM pickups and not his Fishman set? Why is Petrucci the only one who is allowed to use another brand? He raved so much about his set you would think he’d push for that.


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## MFB (Jun 3, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> I actually think this thing looks pretty cool, but the neck heel looks super chunky, which is a big L for me. I'm also curious on the exact specs such as materials and whatnot. Price too, but I'm sure it'll be up there a bit. Slanted neck pickup but straight bridge seems odd too.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the tuning machines used on the headstock so if anyone knows anything about those I'd be interested to hear.



99% sure they're the standard Steinberg gearless tuners that they also use on Firebirds


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## SCJR (Jun 3, 2022)

bjjman said:


> What's the deal with the tuners? I've got a sneaking suspicion I've seen this design before but I can't place it.


Steinberger gearless locking, apparently.


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## technomancer (Jun 3, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> This is a hard pass for me. Also, this was the opportunity for EBMM to tap into the 8 string market but they didn’t? Couldn’t imagine a better spokesperson than Tosin for a company to launch an 8 string line.
> 
> Also, EBMM pickups and not his Fishman set? Why is Petrucci the only one who is allowed to use another brand? He raved so much about his set you would think he’d push for that.



Going to guess it was a cost / profit thing that would have negatively impacted Tosin's bottom line per guitar


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## mikeymike (Jun 3, 2022)

Thesius said:


> What is a heat treated pickup





FitRocker33 said:


> An answer to a problem that never existed


ever stripped a pickup baseplate? ever heard of anyone stripping a pickup baseplate?

without doing any real digging my assumption is that the heat treating increases the hardness of the baseplate so that the screw will strip instead of the pickup. I'd rather replace a 40 cent screw than a +100 dollar pickup.

not sure if that's why but if that's the case it's definitely a problem that has plagued guitar players since before the Internet (especially with forbon vulcanized fiber baseplates in vintage strats etc)


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## Bearitone (Jun 3, 2022)

The body is pretty. As a guy who’s worked in a few factories, I hate the word Kaizen. Reminds me of being at work lol

Also, am I crazy or does the treble portion of the pickup look WAY to close to the bridge.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 3, 2022)

I don't hate it.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 3, 2022)

I liked it until I found otu scale length. Add it to the list of shit I will never buy


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## juka (Jun 3, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> This is a hard pass for me. Also, this was the opportunity for EBMM to tap into the 8 string market but they didn’t? Couldn’t imagine a better spokesperson than Tosin for a company to launch an 8 string line.
> 
> Also, EBMM pickups and not his Fishman set? Why is Petrucci the only one who is allowed to use another brand? He raved so much about his set you would think he’d push for that.


Most people obviously are not aware that at least since the Majesty DiMarzio only delivers the "front end" so to say to EBMM's own proprietary active preamp/boost/eq system with "digital" (whatever they mean by this) switching system  EBMM made Steve Lukather to switch from his longtime signature EMGs to Dimarzio+EBMM preamp, too.

Did Tosin step back from playing 8strings as his main guitars? If not maybe he considers 6&7string guitars just as another form of "merchandise"


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## Concerto412 (Jun 3, 2022)

The body shape is giving me Quest Atak vibes.



Ultimately, more multi scale models with tremolos is a win in my book.


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## JSanta (Jun 3, 2022)

Bearitone said:


> The body is pretty. As a guy who’s worked in a few factories, I hate the word Kaizen. Reminds me of being at work lol
> 
> Also, am I crazy or does the treble portion of the pickup look WAY to close to the bridge.



That was my thought too haha. Kaizen feels like a curse word in my world, and on that principal alone it turns me off. But I get Tosin and his brand, and the colab with EBMM could make sense for both companies.

I don't have skin in the game either way, but I don't mind seeing different companies coming together on stuff like this.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 3, 2022)

juka said:


> EBMM's own proprietary active preamp/boost/eq system with "digital" (whatever they mean by this) switching system



The switching system in the Majesty isn't analog, there's a mechanical switch that triggers a digital controller to make the appropriate signal flow changes. 

This cuts down on the amount of point-to-point connections which makes installs faster, less prone to error, and reduces potential sources of noise.

It's sort of a built-out version of the "Gamechanger" switching system.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 3, 2022)

I'm pretty sure this is an EBMM model/design first with Tosin's input and creative direction imbued. Not a Tosin *Signature *EBMM, which makes sense why there's not a lot of factors that would make it a Tosin Sig.

I like it, reluctant to convince myself I'd spend whatever wild price point it will land on. But if one of the finishes is around the 4k mark I might be willing to try one, but I'd rather just drive to a guitar center and try it for 30 minutes.

I'm more excited about Sterling's willingness to experiment like this. The vibe I always got when I was on their forums more often is that getting him to push something like the Majesty/Stallion out was a struggle.


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## Musiscience (Jun 3, 2022)

Regardless of how much I dislike the design, they really nailed the matte silver holographic finish.


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## xzacx (Jun 3, 2022)

I'm very much in on this—this is the fan scale I've been wanting on a 7 forever for someting in standard tuning. My only real complaint is being a bolt-on, but I can live with that with the other things I like about it.


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## gunshow86de (Jun 3, 2022)

I didn't even notice the fan was 24.75 to 25.5 initially (just assumed it would 25.5 to 26something or 27. Now this and Anderson making 7's again will be competing for my next purchase.



xzacx said:


> I'm very much in on this—this is the fan scale I've been wanting on a 7 forever for someting in standard tuning. My only real complaint is being a bolt-on, but I can live with that with the other things I like about it.



Basically my exact thoughts.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Jun 3, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> This is a hard pass for me. Also, this was the opportunity for EBMM to tap into the 8 string market but they didn’t? Couldn’t imagine a better spokesperson than Tosin for a company to launch an 8 string line.
> 
> Also, EBMM pickups and not his Fishman set? Why is Petrucci the only one who is allowed to use another brand? He raved so much about his set you would think he’d push for that.




new 8 string majesty's


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## narad (Jun 3, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> Regardless of how much I dislike the design, they really nailed the matte silver holographic finish.
> 
> View attachment 108590


I'm in love


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 3, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> Regardless of how much I dislike the design, they really nailed the matte silver holographic finish.
> 
> View attachment 108590


Such a beautiful color scheme on such an ugly shape


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## stretcher7 (Jun 3, 2022)

Millul said:


> What the shit is this fuck???


You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Esp Griffyn (Jun 3, 2022)

Reminds me of a repurposed Albert Lee model to sell to djent kids.


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## Musiscience (Jun 3, 2022)

AkiraSpectrum said:


> new 8 string majesty's



So they basically only made 100 of the cool looking Majesty 8 in Mystic Dream only to release the full production as the blue on black shovel design. Just why  

The purple JP15 is really sick though.


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## technomancer (Jun 3, 2022)

AkiraSpectrum said:


> new 8 string majesty's




I may need a purple nebula JP15 in my life this year...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 3, 2022)

AkiraSpectrum said:


> new 8 string majesty's



I thought the shovel was dead.

feelsbadman


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## Xaios (Jun 3, 2022)

Meh. To me the body looks like someone passed a Jackson Broderick through a low poly filter.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 3, 2022)

narad said:


> I'm in love


It is Friday after all.


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## Kaura (Jun 3, 2022)

I just don't get it. Tosin finally got his own guitar company up and running and now he's releasing some sort of signature model under another brand?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 3, 2022)

Kaura said:


> I just don't get it. Tosin finally got his own guitar company up and running and now he's releasing some sort of signature model under another brand?


I thnk that's the point.  He owns his own company. Can do whatever the fuck he wants. More $$$ from different avenues.


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## WarMachine (Jun 3, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> The corporation I work for uses the slogan “Kaizen is our way of life” so this guitar would remind me too much of work I think.


That was the mantra of my old job; Kaizen = Continuous Improvement.


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## Kaura (Jun 3, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I thnk that's the point.  He owns his own company. Can do whatever the fuck he wants. More $$$ from different avenues.



It's stuff like this that makes me feel lonely and naive in this cold, greedy, capitalistic world. Oh well, luckily no one is forcing me to buy this space door wedge of a guitar.


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## Wildebeest (Jun 3, 2022)

Kaura said:


> It's stuff like this that makes me feel lonely and naive in this cold, greedy, capitalistic world. Oh well, luckily no one is forcing me to buy this space door wedge of a guitar.


bro what are you even talking about just look at the shiny guitar and click like


Very cool shape, I like it and I click like


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## IwantTacos (Jun 3, 2022)

mikeymike said:


> ever stripped a pickup baseplate? ever heard of anyone stripping a pickup baseplate?
> 
> without doing any real digging my assumption is that the heat treating increases the hardness of the baseplate so that the screw will strip instead of the pickup. I'd rather replace a 40 cent screw than a +100 dollar pickup.
> 
> not sure if that's why but if that's the case it's definitely a problem that has plagued guitar players since before the Internet (especially with forbon vulcanized fiber baseplates in vintage strats etc)



The baseplate is the least important thing to heat treat or sprinkle magic dust on. 

Just 3D print a thousand of them. Never worry about stripping anything ever again.


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## Thesius (Jun 3, 2022)

Kaura said:


> It's stuff like this that makes me feel lonely and naive in this cold, greedy, capitalistic world. Oh well, luckily no one is forcing me to buy this space door wedge of a guitar.


Bro what lmao


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## Kaura (Jun 3, 2022)

Thesius said:


> Bro what lmao


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 3, 2022)

Kaura said:


> I just don't get it. Tosin finally got his own guitar company up and running and now he's releasing some sort of signature model under another brand?



I think the idea is to do like hype beast clothing brands when they do limited edition collaborations with another brand. At the end of the day though it's at least an interesting new option. I don't think anyone else is doing a multiscale 7 with Gibson/Fender scales and a trem. And whatever the hell heat treated pickups are, at least they're trying something new.


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## bigswifty (Jun 3, 2022)

I couldn't possibly think of a better guitar not to buy.


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## mikeymike (Jun 3, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> The baseplate is the least important thing to heat treat or sprinkle magic dust on.
> 
> Just 3D print a thousand of them. Never worry about stripping anything ever again.


heat treat and magic dust are two different things, heat treat is a common process that might even be used on pickups you already own and you aren't aware of it...

as for the 3d print part, wtf are you talking about?


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## sakeido (Jun 3, 2022)

this is about sixteen trillion times cooler than the Abasi guitars ... so still extremely uncool and very dorky looking.

This would be a nice mild fan on a 6 but 26" woulda been better for a 7. Oh well. Fanned trem though, neat!


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## SamSam (Jun 3, 2022)

To be fair the specs state 24.75 to 25.5 e to E (I think, I only watched the video once) so the low B may be slightly longer? Unless I missed the 7 string specs...


----------



## SamSam (Jun 3, 2022)

Also, why the fuck isn't this a neck through like the majesty? It would suit the design much better and look more modern.


----------



## Riff the Road Dog (Jun 3, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> The corporation I work for uses the slogan “Kaizen is our way of life” so this guitar would remind me too much of work I think.


Oh, man, did you hit the nail on the head. My first thought. And I'm a certified lean process improvement facilitator. I understand why the meaning of the Japanese word is appropriate, I guess, it's just that it's become such an overused flavor-of-the-day piece of management-speak. You can thank Toyota, not really an evil cyberpunk corp.


----------



## DiezelMonster (Jun 3, 2022)

So first off, the internet collectively has a hissy fit when Gibson uses the Steinberger gearless tuners but none of you guys are screaming, okay just wait until you use them.

Second, the horns look like a shrunken down warrior and then we get the shovel design on the front of the body again, just no obvious shovel flame maple.

This thing is fucking ugly.


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## Randy (Jun 3, 2022)

Abasi proper also releasing a competing product?


----------



## Masoo2 (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> Abasi proper also releasing a competing product?



that upper horn is so bad


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## IwantTacos (Jun 3, 2022)

mikeymike said:


> heat treat and magic dust are two different things, heat treat is a common process that might even be used on pickups you already own and you aren't aware of it...
> 
> as for the 3d print part, wtf are you talking about?


HOSS YOU CAN PRINT IN 3D NOW. MY GRANDSON SHOW'D ME


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## Randy (Jun 3, 2022)

One of the prominent things about the Kaizen announcement was "hey, I'm Tosin Abasi and I don't make a 7 string with a tremolo. This is unique!" and then he announces he's making a 7 string with a trem the very next day.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> Abasi proper also releasing a competing product?




Tosin understands hype marketing better then almost anyone right now. 

EBMM will make their regular production product - the list

and abasi will keep making the drops. - the x1 

everyone tosin wins.


----------



## bostjan (Jun 3, 2022)

Didn't read all of the comments, but holy shit.

This belongs in the "too funny not to post" thread.

I love the headstock.

I'm not so sure about the body shape.

I don't understand the fan. GW says 0.75" fan over 6 strings, but it's a seven string, so...? If it was a decent span on the multiscale, I'd really want to try out the trem, but if it's less than one inch, IDK what the bother is for. I guess it's cool that EBMM has a seven string with multiscale, but it seems to be a swing and a miss like a few of the other major manufacturers' multiscale offerings. Jeez, is it so hard to go 25.5"-27" and set the perpendicular fret anywhere between the 6th and 9th fret? And why do so many seven string manufacturers think that we generally want less scale length?  Even if they did 25.5-26.25" it would be so much better. But whatever.

Mini humbucker? Ok, I'm generally cool with that. But, if you don't like the neck pickup, good luck finding a replacement that fits - mini HB and slanted and 7 string. Oof. And why? Why is it a nonstandard size? What's the reason? I tell you why - it's just to be different. There can be no other reason for such a questionable move.

Heat treated pickups? Hmm. Maybe that's cool, but my bullshit detector is full on redlining. No way to research that just yet.

I'm down with everything else: control layout looks cool, offset dots are always better than the even more boring ones, fretboard wood looks nice in the photos, trem looks aesthetically okay (not great, but good enough for sure), and the contours for the forearm and so forth look nice. Steinberger-style tuners are probably a plus.

If I see one of these in a store ever, I'm going to ask to try it out, potentially with zero expectation of actually buying it, but who knows?

Just overall so close to nailing it...

And then where to begin with how puzzling this is. Tosin has his name attached to its very own guitar company right now, yet this exists. I see I'm not the only person puzzled by that aspect. But how is EBMM cool with any of this?!


----------



## Randy (Jun 3, 2022)




----------



## Chanson (Jun 3, 2022)

This gives me hope that it won't take forever until EBMM release a multiscale bass.


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## syzygy (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> View attachment 108614


See, this is _exactly_ what's confusing me. It's not even that Tosin owns a guitar company, or that he released a double-cut 7-string with a floating trem. It's not that he also released another guitar with EBMM that (at least to me) seems like it's directly competing for its target audience with Tosin's own guitars. It's that the news of both happened to drop_ *on the *_*exact same day. *

Chalk it up to me not understanding what 5-D chess business decisions are going on, but seriously. What was the point of this? 

also, I hate that the double-cut Abasi's white binding (?) on the contour just ends abruptly at the horn cutout. It looks *so* sloppy


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 3, 2022)

Man I really hate that Dutch orange color.


----------



## MFB (Jun 3, 2022)

Good to see someone else was able to get use out of the Agile Intrepid headstock


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> View attachment 108614


...I actually prefer this.


----------



## Randy (Jun 3, 2022)

It's okay. Has kind of a Wish.com Strandberg vibe to it to my eyes.


----------



## Bodes (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> View attachment 108614



I think I peed out that colour after my last big night out... 

Thank you to whomever said the ebmm version had a warrior vibe to the horns. I couldn't quite work it out.


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## works0fheart (Jun 3, 2022)

Masoo2 said:


> that upper horn is so bad



I must be in the minority but this thing is way less of an eyesore than the Larada or whatever. Still wouldn't buy this, but it doesn't look like it has elephantitis I guess.



IwantTacos said:


> everyone tosin wins.



Now if he could just make new music that's actually interesting again.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> It's okay. Has kind of a Wish.com Strandberg vibe to it to my eyes.


I guess that's how low my opinion is of the Kaizen.


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## Randy (Jun 3, 2022)

Is this old-old or is this a reference to Emi? Because this looks like a double cut Abasi with Tosins pickups in it.


Edit: the inlay pattern too.


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## Matt08642 (Jun 3, 2022)

bostjan said:


> But how is EBMM cool with any of this?!





syzygy said:


> ...but seriously. What was the point of this?






Everyone's gonna be all confused till every model, color, and variety of this sells out within days, just like Abasi guitars, just like Falbo originals, just like the EBMM Petrucci 8 string, just like, just like, just like...

This is simply a good way for musicians make money since albums and touring alone no longer get you supercars based on what the Djent/gear crowd (Misha, Tosin, etc) have said. 

The companies also aren't stupid and know the names that are gonna move gear. I think it was Misha who said a musician would be foolish to turn down a company wanting to make something for them (re the Invective) and I'm inclined to agree in most cases. Tosin has no obligation to any other companies, EBMM cuts him a piece of the pie to help design something and associate his name with it knowing it will sell, everyone wins.


----------



## MrWulf (Jun 3, 2022)

Im rather curious about that trems in the Abasis. Look like a non locking design yet not hipshot?


----------



## Jamiecrain (Jun 3, 2022)

This model shows just how far guitar companies have “grown up” in a business sense in the past couple of decades. They’ve created a product to sell, not an instrument to make music.

BTW Tosin has been a not-so-secret admirer of EBMM for a while now. Just look at the Mystic dream Laradas and tiger stripe maple necks. Just saying.


----------



## Randy (Jun 3, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> . Tosin has no obligation to any other companies, EBMM cuts him a piece of the pie to help design something and associate his name with it knowing it will sell, everyone wins.


Sort of. That's a lot of money tooling specifically for something based on his oddball specs, for him to basically kneecap it by announcing a guitar occupying 95% of the same niche the next day.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> Is this old-old or is this a reference to Emi? Because this looks like a double cut Abasi with Tosins pickups in it.
> View attachment 108633
> 
> Edit: the inlay pattern too.



Both Tosin and Falbo were working with Vik around the same time as Abasi 1.0. 



MrWulf said:


> Im rather curious about that trems in the Abasis. Look like a non locking design yet not hipshot?



Gotoh 510


----------



## Cockandballs (Jun 3, 2022)

That guitar looks like garbage. Abasi is smoking cracking charging the same price as Ernie Ball using hacks from the Jackson factory or that factory in Japan


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## jephjacques (Jun 3, 2022)

the kaizen shape is growing on me a little but I really don't need yet another 25.5" 7 string


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 3, 2022)

I just want to know the damn price. I have been looking at it and now I want that silver sparkle one.


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## getowned7474 (Jun 3, 2022)

Reverb put a video on YouTube in which an EBMM employee confirms the 7th string is ~25.7" in scale length. Sort of an odd way to describe the spec of the guitar but the 24.75" to 25.5" is just the highest 6 strings.


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## technomancer (Jun 3, 2022)

Randy said:


> Sort of. That's a lot of money tooling specifically for something based on his oddball specs, for him to basically kneecap it by announcing a guitar occupying 95% of the same niche the next day.



How is it kneecapping it? The guys that want to screw around with chasing one of the limited batches of the Abasi guitars will still do that, everybody else will order the EBMM that will be in stock and easily / readily available.

Personally I'm not in a hurry to buy either one, but to each their own.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 3, 2022)

technomancer said:


> How is it kneecapping it? The guys that want to screw around with chasing one of the limited batches of the Abasi guitars will still do that, everybody else will order the EBMM that will be in stock and easily / readily available.
> 
> Personally I'm not in a hurry to buy either one, but to each their own.



Yeah, if my choice is a known quantity like EBMM or the absolute cluster fuck that's been Abasi Instruments, I'm going with EBMM, even if I liked the other one a pinch more.


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## jephjacques (Jun 3, 2022)

I'd buy 10 more EBMMs before I rolled the dice on another abasi


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## Wucan (Jun 3, 2022)

When you buy EBMM, you're getting a top notch instrument even if it's been beaten to shit. Honestly the one non-custom US manufacturer who deserves to charge whatever they want, so IDC about the price - if I see one in store and I like playing it, I'm buying it.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jun 3, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, if my choice is a known quantity like EBMM or the absolute cluster fuck that's been Abasi Instruments, I'm going with EBMM, even if I liked the other one a pinch more.



I have a 2002 EBMM and a 2022 EBMM. I am very confident in where their quality stands.


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## Hollowway (Jun 3, 2022)

Kaura said:


> It's stuff like this that makes me feel lonely and naive in this cold, greedy, capitalistic world. Oh well, luckily no one is forcing me to buy this space door wedge of a guitar.


I feel the same way. I have a hard time buying a product that I feel the company is only half-heartedly behind. I love Tosin and AAL, and was happy that he was finally getting his company off the ground, but this seems weird. I get that he wants to make money from different sources, but it kind of takes the enthusiasm for getting a Tosin guitar, when I'm not sure what a Tosin guitar even is. 

And then there's the fact that I do not like this at all, from a design perspective. It's not an 8 string, which is what he plays, doesn't have his choice of pickups, and is competing now directly with his own company. The tag line of this should be "The guitar Tosin would play, if he didn't like 8s, his own pickups, or his own brand." 

But the biggest mistake here is the name. It's horribly cliche. The copy should read, "This disruptive game changer guitar is a deep dive into thinking outside the box, and will synergize with your playing. If you missed it this time, we'll circle back, reach out, and loop you in, or get granular and discuss this offline."


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 3, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> I have a 2002 EBMM and a 2022 EBMM. I am very confident in where their quality stands.



Minus something of a dark spot in the mid/late aughts EBMM has been consistent enough to set a clock to.


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## spudmunkey (Jun 4, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> I feel the same way. I have a hard time buying a product that I feel the company is only half-heartedly behind. I love Tosin and AAL, and was happy that he was finally getting his company off the ground, but this seems weird. I get that he wants to make money from different sources, but it kind of takes the enthusiasm for getting a Tosin guitar, when I'm not sure what a Tosin guitar even is.
> 
> And then there's the fact that I do not like this at all, from a design perspective. It's not an 8 string, which is what he plays, doesn't have his choice of pickups, and is competing now directly with his own company. The tag line of this should be "The guitar Tosin would play, if he didn't like 8s, his own pickups, or his own brand."
> 
> But the biggest mistake here is the name. It's horribly cliche. The copy should read, "This disruptive game changer guitar is a deep dive into thinking outside the box, and will synergize with your playing. If you missed it this time, we'll circle back, reach out, and loop you in, or get granular and discuss this offline."


It's a paradigm shift, from thinking outside the box. A real game-changer. Something something low-hanging fruit. Coffee is for closers!


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## AboutBlank (Jun 4, 2022)

Step by step to the Koe-nigs-egg


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## ChrisLA (Jun 4, 2022)

The lower bout looks weird and not very "ergo" at all, just out of place/weird. Also dislike the fanned frets, particularly the gibson scale on the high strings. Stupid. So people really feel a regular EBMM or an ESP Horizon/M or an Ibanez JS/JEM/PIA etc "aren't slinky enough" on the high strings? Silly


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## Millul (Jun 4, 2022)

spudmunkey said:


> It's a paradigm shift, from thinking outside the box. A real game-changer. Something something low-hanging fruit. Coffee is for closers!



Finally someone here who gets the broader picture in this deep dive into strategic repositioning


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## mikeymike (Jun 4, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> HOSS YOU CAN PRINT IN 3D NOW. MY GRANDSON SHOW'D ME


ah yes the household-common, fast-production rate metal 3d printer. How could I be so dumb...

Seriously? Have you ever 3d printed something? that shit takes days and then it falls apart halfway through the print.


----------



## maliciousteve (Jun 4, 2022)

Reminds me of the Guild X-79


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## IwantTacos (Jun 4, 2022)

mikeymike said:


> ah yes the household-common, fast-production rate metal 3d printer. How could I be so dumb...
> 
> Seriously? Have you ever 3d printed something? that shit takes days and then it falls apart halfway through the print.



Dawg it’s 2022.


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## narad (Jun 4, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> Dawg it’s 2022.



You can 3d print 3d printers now.


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 4, 2022)

Looks cool, original, and I bet that would actually be comfortable to play. 

Good to see a very boring company making something exciting IMO


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 4, 2022)

maliciousteve said:


> Reminds me of the Guild X-79



Bring that shit back.


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## TimmyPage (Jun 4, 2022)

I think I really like it? I wasn't sold the first day I saw it but now that I've seen some video clips from NAMM I think it looks pretty cool, cant wait to try one out. 

I had a similar experience with the Majesty, where I hated it the first time I saw it, but then I got my hands on one to try and the whole design clicked for me.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 4, 2022)




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## Kyle Jordan (Jun 4, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


>



Guitar looks much better here. 

I'd actually be interested if not for positioning of the bridge pickup and the shorter scale on the treble side. And even then, the pickup is the one that really kills it for me. 

Still, I have to say I'm a fan of the look and some of the ideas at play here.


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## tian (Jun 4, 2022)

broangiel said:


> Has it been stated this is a limited run?!


Starting with a limited run of 7 strings this year with a full retail launch of 6s and 7s next year.

The video really gives a better sense of the shape of the guitar. I dig it but it makes sense that the whole thing is polarizing. 

The pickup "tech" sounds like bullshit but whatever.


----------



## Agalloch (Jun 4, 2022)

Flappydoodle said:


> Looks cool, original, and I bet that would actually be comfortable to play.
> 
> Good to see a very boring company making something exciting IMO



Have you seen Music Man's other guitars and basses? I would never describe them as "very boring." I'd call them forward-thinking while still keeping a foot in the past. Fender and Gibson on the other hand...


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## Hollowway (Jun 4, 2022)

I’m gonna fast forward a couple of years, and guess that Tosin will say that he uses these as a power amp for his main guitar, and that’s the way he designed it.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 5, 2022)

Seems like Tosin doesn't really understand the heat treated pickup thing either


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## works0fheart (Jun 5, 2022)

I actually really dig the finish/color on that silver one. The guitar would look really cool if it weren't for that humongous lower horn.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA (Jun 5, 2022)

payment sent...


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## narad (Jun 5, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> would look really cool if it weren't for that humongous lower horn.


----------



## narad (Jun 5, 2022)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> payment sent...



How much is payment?


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## adriangrizzly (Jun 5, 2022)

For 3 days I've been wondering if I would like it more or less if it didn't bear Tosins name on it. It definitely has the "Abasi DNA" but question is: Would the general opinion be different if this came as a regular Music Man model (without any connection to Tosin)?


Still can't decide if it's cool or goofy looking but it's growing on me.


----------



## StevenC (Jun 5, 2022)

adriangrizzly said:


> For 3 days I've been wondering if I would like it more or less if it didn't bear Tosins name on it. It definitely has the "Abasi DNA" but question is: Would the general opinion be different if this came as a regular Music Man model (without any connection to Tosin)?
> 
> 
> Still can't decide if it's cool or goofy looking but it's growing on me.


The Armada was laughed out of town, the St Vincent is their best selling guitar and the Majesty is very popular.

It 100% matters what name is on a Music Man.


----------



## Blytheryn (Jun 5, 2022)

It’s got St. Vincent’s ass and the tits of a Warrior.


----------



## OmegaSlayer (Jun 5, 2022)

I like the guitar, but if you consider the customer it's supposed to reach, the scale size is a shot in the foot


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jun 5, 2022)

If the Abasi/Larada thread has taught us anything, it's that if you put Tosin's name on it, it can be shitty and still sellout...for a while.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 5, 2022)

Do we have a price list yet? It has been 3 days and I officially need one. I don't care for the name attached but I really like the shape and everything else.


----------



## broangiel (Jun 5, 2022)

tian said:


> Starting with a limited run of 7 strings this year with a full retail launch of 6s and 7s next year.
> 
> The video really gives a better sense of the shape of the guitar. I dig it but it makes sense that the whole thing is polarizing.
> 
> The pickup "tech" sounds like bullshit but whatever.


That's OK, I guess. I added quite a few of these 2022 models to my "checklist" -- I collect EBMM guitars. Super stoked to have a real opportunity to grab these.


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent (Jun 5, 2022)

Specs seems cool but the body just isn’t my thing.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jun 5, 2022)

the heat treated pickup shit is killing me. They prob just degauss the magnets with heat to an extent


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 5, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the heat treated pickup shit is killing me. They prob just degauss the magnets with heat to an extent



I assume they're being vague because it's proprietary tech, but it's just funny how Tosin and even the Music Man employees in other NAMM vids can't explain what it actually is.


----------



## mikeymike (Jun 5, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> Dawg it’s 2022.


just 3d print your guitar bro


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jun 5, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> I assume they're being vague because it's proprietary tech, but it's just funny how Tosin and even the Music Man employees in other NAMM vids can't explain what it actually is.



I mean the only part of a pickup that would benefit from "heat treating" is the magnet, which basically just weakens its output when done in a specific temp range. Taking cheap ceramic magnets and degaussing them, combined with a lower wind count = "clarity" and "power"


----------



## adrianb (Jun 5, 2022)

I'll take the Jason Richardson sig over this any day.


----------



## NoodleFace (Jun 5, 2022)

It's weird to me that a dude who owns his own guitar company would have a sig with another


----------



## Viginez (Jun 5, 2022)

needs the appropriate headstock


----------



## Thesius (Jun 5, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> It's weird to me that a dude who owns his own guitar company would have a sig with another



It's not a sig and it's not that weird either


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 5, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> I assume they're being vague because it's proprietary tech, but it's just funny how Tosin and even the Music Man employees in other NAMM vids can't explain what it actually is.



The "Dude Trust Me Bro" Pickups Set


----------



## NoodleFace (Jun 5, 2022)

Thesius said:


> It's not a sig and it's not that weird either


Still weird


----------



## IwantTacos (Jun 5, 2022)

mikeymike said:


> just 3d print your guitar bro



I mean...that's that a thing that's possible in the year of our lord 2022 hoss.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 5, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> It's weird to me that a dude who owns his own guitar company would have a sig with another


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## IwantTacos (Jun 5, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> It's weird to me that a dude who owns his own guitar company would have a sig with another



it's not weird. it's the other way around. Being locked into one company for all your shit just because they give you free stuff or a cut of profits. That's weird.


----------



## Matt08642 (Jun 5, 2022)

Remember when scatter winding was THE thing for _Big Chords™ that stay clear under high gain and really let the notes ring, _then it was Fishman technology for those _Big Chords™ under high gain. _Now you gotta heat treat the magnets so you can really get those _Big Chords™ under high gain_. Even prior to that, DiMarzio back in the day was touting the "Air" technology for.... _Big Chords™ that ring out clearly._

Sometimes I just think "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"


----------



## lurè (Jun 5, 2022)

I know I souldn't but I actually like it more than the recent Majesty models


----------



## bigswifty (Jun 5, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"



Basically my sentiments to the entire guitar/music consumer industry these days..


----------



## RevelGTR (Jun 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> The Armada was laughed out of town, the St Vincent is their best selling guitar and the Majesty is very popular.
> 
> It 100% matters what name is on a Music Man.


Did I miss something? Isn’t the Petrucci line their best selling?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 5, 2022)

RevelGTR said:


> Did I miss something? Isn’t the Petrucci line their best selling?


Petrucci did say something about the Majesty being the 2nd-best-selling signature guitar in the world behind the Les Paul, but I dunno if I believe that.


----------



## StevenC (Jun 5, 2022)

RevelGTR said:


> Did I miss something? Isn’t the Petrucci line their best selling?


The Petrucci was the best selling for a while, then they said it was the St Vincent, now they're saying the JP is the 2nd best selling signature ever. Point being, the Armada didn't sell because of how it looked, then they took elements from it for the St Vincent and Majesty that went on to sell really well.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> The Petrucci was the best selling for a while, then they said it was the St Vincent, now they're saying the JP is the 2nd best selling signature ever. Point being, the Armada didn't sell because of how it looked, then they took elements from it for the St Vincent and Majesty that went on to sell really well.


Anyone else remember the Reflex?


----------



## katsumura78 (Jun 5, 2022)

Kaizen will sell like hotcakes if the price isn’t too stupid. Heck I want one even if the scale length isn’t exactly what I want. They didn’t mention anything about a preamp/buffer in it right? I don’t need another guitar that requires batteries.


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## Hollowway (Jun 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> The Armada was laughed out of town, the St Vincent is their best selling guitar and the Majesty is very popular.
> 
> It 100% matters what name is on a Music Man.


For me it's less about the name on it (I'm a bigger fan of Tosin than I am St. Vincent - at least in terms of what songs I learn and listen to) and more about the fact that I don't think the design on the Kaizen is any good. I think the St. Vincent is a super out-there design, but is done well, in the sense that nothing seems like it's "trying too hard," and it flows well. The Kaizen screams "different just to be different," and doesn't flow well. Like, what's with the bass side of the bridge practically overlapping the start of the lower bout bevel? Why are the pickups oriented in that way? My biggest beef with guitar companies is that the designs are done by people who aren't gifted designers. They just sketch something out and roll with it. When a good design IS done, (Ritter, Padalka, Stradi, etc) it's super obvious how next-level it is. If I were in charge of a company, I'd seek the best design firms to work on these things, rather than just having some in-house person sketch stuff out and put it into production (looking at you, specifically, Jeff Kiesel!).


----------



## teamSKDM (Jun 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> If they can do an 8 string JP and a fanned trem on an Abasi, why can't they make one guitar I like?


that trem is ass anyways look at that gap from the low saddle to the actual pickup


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## NoodleFace (Jun 5, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Petrucci did say something about the Majesty being the 2nd-best-selling signature guitar in the world behind the Les Paul, but I dunno if I believe that.


I believe that honor goes to the JEM


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 5, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> I believe that honor goes to the JEM


And the Rhoads and Kelly may be up there too.


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## NoodleFace (Jun 5, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> And the Rhoads and Kelly may be up there too.


To be honest I wasn't even aware the Kelly was a sig!


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## Hollowway (Jun 5, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> To be honest I wasn't even aware the Kelly was a sig!


Probably because it's the most glorious design ever made. Rumor has it that when you get to heaven (see what I did there?) God is playing one. 

*It's often thought that Jesus plays a guitar, but, truth is, God does. Jesus slappa da bass.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 5, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> To be honest I wasn't even aware the Kelly was a sig!


Yep. Some dude from a band named Heaven (see: Hollowway's pun  )


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 5, 2022)

StevenC said:


> The Petrucci was the best selling for a while, then they said it was the St Vincent, now they're saying the JP is the 2nd best selling signature ever. Point being, the Armada didn't sell because of how it looked, then they took elements from it for the St Vincent and Majesty that went on to sell really well.



I think the takeaway here is that the Ball family will say whatever in the moment, whether true or not, to sell their guitars. 

I mean, it's harmless, but still whatever.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the takeaway here is that the Ball family will say whatever in the moment, whether true or not, to sell their guitars.
> 
> I mean, it's harmless, but still whatever.


That’s not you spell Paul Reed Smith.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 5, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> That’s not you spell Paul Reed Smith.



It's almost like these guys have a vested interest in how well these companies do financially.


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## Masoo2 (Jun 5, 2022)

teamSKDM said:


> that trem is ass anyways look at that gap from the low saddle to the actual pickup


I see people keep saying this but is there a multiscale trem design that doesn't have a pretty big gap between saddle and pickup?

Even .strandberg*s are pretty far all things considered, I think it's just that the bridge baseplate on the Kaizen looks *huge* and *plain* in a way other designs don't.

I guess the Hantugs used on Aristides aren't too big of a gap.

Also Tosin and Javier have a history of guitars with big gaps between the bridge and pickup, particularly their C# tuning guitars (.strandberg*s, Rick Toone) which are mostly used in thumping and clean contexts.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jun 5, 2022)

I think everything I wanted to say about the design itself has been said already. I like the body shape. The headstock is incongruous but forgivable. That silver is fantastic. The style is very 'nouveau EBMM'--it fits well within their design language of the last several years. 

That's partly what confuses me about some of Tosin's answers in these interviews. He doesn't seem to know what fully went on with bringing the guitar to market, yet he says he thinks of himself as a designer who has partnered with EBMM for this project. In fairness to him, he does acknowledge in the Premier Guitar interview that he trusted EBMM's design department with numerous details, implying they came up with many (most?) of the ideas for the guitar. 

To me, it sounds like "collab" in this context means Tosin lent his name and face to EBMM while EBMM executes their take on Tosin's design brief mostly unsupervised. Why else would the guitar look so like EBMM and so different from Abasi's stuff? 




Randy said:


> Technically Abasi just has his guitar ghost built, so he doesn't have a "guitar company" as much as a brand/design. So to some extent, this is just EBMM building Abasis (instead of Grover Jackson or WMI or Falbo or whoever), but EBMM probably wouldn't submit to making guitars with someone else's name on it, so the compromise is a different design that's really just an EBMM Tosin Abasi signature as opposed to an Abasi Inc collab. Sorta.





Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm pretty sure this is an EBMM model/design first with Tosin's input and creative direction imbued. Not a Tosin *Signature *EBMM, which makes sense why there's not a lot of factors that would make it a Tosin Sig.





Randy said:


> One of the prominent things about the Kaizen announcement was "hey, I'm Tosin Abasi and I don't make a 7 string with a tremolo. This is unique!" and then he announces he's making a 7 string with a trem the very next day.





bostjan said:


> And then where to begin with how puzzling this is. Tosin has his name attached to its very own guitar company right now, yet this exists. I see I'm not the only person puzzled by that aspect. But how is EBMM cool with any of this?!




Randy makes a good point. 'Ghost-built' seems to have the wrong connotation, though, as if EBMM were mere manufacturers of Tosin's design when it seems this is more an EBMM design done in what _EBMM _feel Tosin's style is. 

You're seeing that more and more as a trendy way to advertise products or to re-frame brand expectations these days. You probably don't give a shit if Nike signs another athlete to their roster of endorsees. However, you might care if a "collab" makes you look at Nike in a new light because they've reframed their relationship with an endorser as a partnership. So, Nike are happy to do 90% of the design work if simply labeling a partnership as [Brand] X [Artist] generates some buzz when a traditional endorsement otherwise wouldn't.

Whether we're talking celebrities creating makeup palettes with beauty brands, Kanye's taste in clothes or Travis Scott's taste in McDonald's burgers, this style of marketing is ubiquitous. Yes, influencers have been around a while. Yet this is something more akin to influencers trying to pitch themselves as entire fashion brands. "House of Abasi", if you will. 

Call me cynical but this is just fluff. It's endorsement by another other name. The guitar that resulted from it looks decent at least.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Jun 5, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> Remember when scatter winding was THE thing for _Big Chords™ that stay clear under high gain and really let the notes ring, _then it was Fishman technology for those _Big Chords™ under high gain. _Now you gotta heat treat the magnets so you can really get those _Big Chords™ under high gain_. Even prior to that, DiMarzio back in the day was touting the "Air" technology for.... _Big Chords™ that ring out clearly._
> 
> Sometimes I just think "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"



ok I'm gonna be real like chord clarity isn't important for 99% of the shit people are playing any more

but I will say, and you may shoot me for this 

my fishman set is the most clear tone I've ever had and it's dark as hell


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## Steinmetzify (Jun 5, 2022)

No kill it with fire


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## vortex_infinium (Jun 6, 2022)

Between the Kaizen and Abasi... Tosin has convinced me to buy a St. Vincent.

Edit: I've actually wanted one for years now I'm not sure why this release has pushed me over the edge.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 6, 2022)

man if they made a 24 fret fanned fret st vincent.


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## Randy (Jun 6, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> I think everything I wanted to say about the design itself has been said already. I like the body shape. The headstock is incongruous but forgivable. That silver is fantastic. The style is very 'nouveau EBMM'--it fits well within their design language of the last several years.
> 
> That's partly what confuses me about some of Tosin's answers in these interviews. He doesn't seem to know what fully went on with bringing the guitar to market, yet he says he thinks of himself as a designer who has partnered with EBMM for this project. In fairness to him, he does acknowledge in the Premier Guitar interview that he trusted EBMM's design department with numerous details, implying they came up with many (most?) of the ideas for the guitar.
> 
> ...


I mean, credit to Abasi and EBMM both because the Kaizen plugged up my feed from NAMM more than anything else at that show, like 5:1. I'd imagine some percentage of that is because it was an effective attention getter, but I'd also venture to guess they threw a shit-ton of money at the promotion for this thing.

So credit there. I think my nitpicking on the Kaizen release is less about that specifically (I opened the thread saying it was good), more about where it falls on "Tosin Abasi designed guitars" landscape, in particular after he announced a spec-similar guitar at the same event.

To the analogy above, a Travis Scott x McDonald's collab would hit different if he was also simultaneously announcing he was opening a fast food burger restaurant selling the same meal. It'll get press for sure and everybody gets a sales bump because new is new, but is it a long term viable strategy when you're selling a similar product? Or rather, with multiple paths available to you, is it the most effective one?

Is someone buying an Emi _and_ a Kaizen? Is someone buying an Emi _or_ Kaizen that wasn't going to buy an Abasi or EBMM if the other thing hadn't existed? In enough volume/proportions to offset the cost of retooling for production? Meh, idk. It's kind of like a fun experiment but the simultaneous release of (IMO) competing products at the same event, I'm not convinced by the idea of that being savvy or necessary.


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## narad (Jun 6, 2022)

Matt08642 said:


> Remember when scatter winding was THE thing for _Big Chords™ that stay clear under high gain and really let the notes ring, _then it was Fishman technology for those _Big Chords™ under high gain. _Now you gotta heat treat the magnets so you can really get those _Big Chords™ under high gain_. Even prior to that, DiMarzio back in the day was touting the "Air" technology for.... _Big Chords™ that ring out clearly._
> 
> Sometimes I just think "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"


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## Emperoff (Jun 6, 2022)

Wow. I'm genuinely surprised so many of you guys like this aberration


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 6, 2022)

I preordered it. 3.7k after tax. Expected later this year holiday season time


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## littlebadboy (Jun 6, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


>






gunshow86de said:


> Seems like Tosin doesn't really understand the heat treated pickup thing either



I didn't like it at all after seeing the initial pictures. But after watching the reverb video, it gave me a better look and it made sense. The infinity fretboard also makes sense, giving a better visual of the frets down there in favor of the player. But I don't have that problem playing my guitars. I actually like it now, but I don't need another guitar. It also looks like a shredder's guitar and I am not. 

After watching both videos, it seems that they have a reason for everything such as the bridge pickup orientation and mini humbucker neck. To me, it seems to be a well thought guitar especially with the Abasi collaboration. I am sure it will make sense when it is actually played on.

For some reason. on the back of my head... it says - this would be a great headless guitar.

But, that's just me. I am not much of a guitar player and knowledgeable about guitar tech anyways. 

Have a nice day, everyone! It's a rainy summer (or close to) day in my parts!


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jun 6, 2022)

Randy said:


> To the analogy above, a Travis Scott x McDonald's collab would hit different if he was also simultaneously announcing he was opening a fast food burger restaurant selling the same meal. It'll get press for sure and everybody gets a sales bump because new is new, but is it a long term viable strategy when you're selling a similar product? Or rather, with multiple paths available to you, is it the most effective one?
> 
> Is someone buying an Emi _and_ a Kaizen? Is someone buying an Emi _or_ Kaizen that wasn't going to buy an Abasi or EBMM if the other thing hadn't existed? In enough volume/proportions to offset the cost of retooling for production? Meh, idk. It's kind of like a fun experiment but the simultaneous release of (IMO) competing products at the same event, I'm not convinced by the idea of that being savvy or necessary.


I think that given the brand thing that Abasi Guitars has going on, with the whole Supreme/Adidas-like limited drop thing they do, that these two do not actually have any overlap. Think of it like UltraBoost/Yeezy from a few years back. Very similar shoes targeting a very similar audience, both very high quality but one released in only limited quantities. You get the hype around the limited Yeezys, but if you don't get one you can still get the UltraBoosts for only a couple dozen less (I think Yeezys were 220 and Ultras were 190 so you really weren't saving any money). I think that the whole idea behind this venture is not really prevalent in the guitar industry and especially not in the prog/metal scene so it seems foreign but this just looks like a regular high-end brand collab to me.


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## IwantTacos (Jun 6, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> I think that given the brand thing that Abasi Guitars has going on, with the whole Supreme/Adidas-like limited drop thing they do, that these two do not actually have any overlap. Think of it like UltraBoost/Yeezy from a few years back. Very similar shoes targeting a very similar audience, both very high quality but one released in only limited quantities. You get the hype around the limited Yeezys, but if you don't get one you can still get the UltraBoosts for only a couple dozen less (I think Yeezys were 220 and Ultras were 190 so you really weren't saving any money). I think that the whole idea behind this venture is not really prevalent in the guitar industry and especially not in the prog/metal scene so it seems foreign but this just looks like a regular high-end brand collab to me.



yup you got it.


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## teamSKDM (Jun 6, 2022)

Masoo2 said:


> I see people keep saying this but is there a multiscale trem design that doesn't have a pretty big gap between saddle and pickup?
> 
> Even .strandberg*s are pretty far all things considered, I think it's just that the bridge baseplate on the Kaizen looks *huge* and *plain* in a way other designs don't.
> 
> ...


aristedes is the first to do it with a tremolo then ormsby with multiscale and floyd rose. ebmm should have been next especially to maximize innovation and ergonomics for a guitar whos main focus is those qualities . to leave the door open for those sonic abnormalities always gives me the impression tone and sound was an afterthought and how the guitar feels is the only focus which is only half the game. also if this gap is bad on a 7 just imagine how terrible it will be on an 8. youre muddying up the tone and removing tightness and clarity the farther you make that gap which is not what a 7th and especially 8 string want


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## Sermo Lupi (Jun 6, 2022)

Randy said:


> I mean, credit to Abasi and EBMM both because the Kaizen plugged up my feed from NAMM more than anything else at that show, like 5:1. I'd imagine some percentage of that is because it was an effective attention getter, but I'd also venture to guess they threw a shit-ton of money at the promotion for this thing.
> 
> So credit there. I think my nitpicking on the Kaizen release is less about that specifically (I opened the thread saying it was good), more about where it falls on "Tosin Abasi designed guitars" landscape, in particular after he announced a spec-similar guitar at the same event.
> 
> ...



Ultimately, I think this phase of advertising will prove to be a fad. It's popular now because it's still novel. However, I think people are becoming more inclined to doubt how authentic it is. 

In that Premier Guitar interview, Tosin compares and contrasts EBMM and Abasi Concepts several times. For example, he mentions how working with EBMM is different from Abasi because they have a dedicated design department with artists and engineers whom working with was "like being a kid in a candy store". 

Which, again, makes me feel like Tosin had a design brief done up for Abasi concepts beforehand, ran it by EBMM to see if they'd do a one-off "collab" with him in their own style, and then they decided to launch the products simultaneously. The way Tosin hedges some of his answers to questions in that PG interview, he obviously knew this criticism was coming. 

I agree that this kind of branding generates buzz, at least for now. I can't help but feel it seems pretentious, though. Remember that Ibanez partnership with H. R. Giger from 15 years ago? That felt like a genuine collaboration even if it pre-dated this vein of marketing. A shared effort between one of the world's largest guitar manufacturers and one of the most influential artists of the 20th century whose design aesthetic was completely unique. You knew what you were getting out of that collaboration as soon as it was announced. 

With this, it wasn't as obvious. It's just EBMM exercising their creative juices a bit more than normal when executing a signature artist's spec request. I'm sure they used the opportunity to try a few things out that otherwise would've have made it to market without an artist's name attached, but the collaboration on the design side seems one-directional. Tosin's biggest contribution is his name, reputation, and his music, just like in a traditional signature endorsement. 

Extrapolating that out, it's functionally useless to call some person's fast food burger order a "collab". Yes, it's a spectrum and Tosin isn't quite on that extreme end of the scale. It's still misleading when applied to this arrangement, however, except to communicate that there sn't a long-term commitment for EBMM and Tosin to work together.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 6, 2022)

Tosin didn't even design the Larada, Darren Wilson did.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 6, 2022)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I preordered it. 3.7k after tax. Expected later this year holiday season time



Where'd you preorder this at? Mid 3's has me way more interested.


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## gunshow86de (Jun 6, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Tosin didn't even design the Larada, Darren Wilson did.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 6, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Where'd you preorder this at? Mid 3's has me way more interested.


Sweetwater!


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## MFB (Jun 6, 2022)

I'm surprised Darren was willing to put his name back out into the design world, figured if people knew he had a hand in anything at this point, the ship would sink.

Does explain the new headstock though, so I'll pat myself on the back for that one.


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## SCJR (Jun 6, 2022)

Don't think I saw it mentioned anywhere in this thread so far - but to me the most interesting feature is the supposed wedge-shaped fingerboard designed to slightly enhance your field of view. If it works in practice the way it's described in theory, it could be pretty cool.

Anyone aware of this being implemented elsewhere? I've never heard of it before but I'm also not in the custom spheres much where I'd guess this has possibly been offered before.

Edit: Mentioned on the last page that I was too lazy to read until now lol.


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## narad (Jun 6, 2022)

SCJR said:


> Don't think I saw it mentioned anywhere in this thread so far - but to me the most interesting feature is the supposed wedge-shaped fingerboard designed to slightly enhance your field of view. If it works in practice the way it's described in theory, it could be pretty cool.
> 
> Anyone aware of this being implemented elsewhere? I've never heard of it before but I'm also not in the custom spheres much where I'd guess this has possibly been offered before.



I always thought it would be cool to have a guitar neck slightly angled the other way so your left hand wouldn't have to come up and over as much to play it. I guess this is a small adjustment, but I thought it was weird for a guy like Tosin to be proposing this -- most celebrated erg guitarist and still need to look at the fretboard?


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## ArtDecade (Jun 6, 2022)

Slap some bad tribal on this EBMM and Kerry King will probably dig it.


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## Thesius (Jun 6, 2022)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Sweetwater!


Can you drop the link I must be stupid I can't find it


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## ArtDecade (Jun 6, 2022)

Thesius said:


> Can you drop the link I must be stupid I can't find it



Searching *Abas*i and *Kaizen* bring up other products, but not this guitar. So, it isn't you.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 6, 2022)

Thesius said:


> Can you drop the link I must be stupid I can't find it


 You gotta call them


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## bostjan (Jun 6, 2022)

SCJR said:


> Don't think I saw it mentioned anywhere in this thread so far - but to me the most interesting feature is the supposed wedge-shaped fingerboard designed to slightly enhance your field of view. If it works in practice the way it's described in theory, it could be pretty cool.
> 
> Anyone aware of this being implemented elsewhere? I've never heard of it before but I'm also not in the custom spheres much where I'd guess this has possibly been offered before.
> 
> Edit: Mentioned on the last page that I was too lazy to read until now lol.


The method is novel (AFAIK), but the basic idea has been done several times in the past by angling either the neck pocket or the heel (usually 10-15)° toward the player's head. Lace (the same who made the lace sensor pickups and alumitones etc) was the most well-known. The fact that virtually no one remembers it existed might indicate how popular the idea was at the turn of the millennium, though.


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## trem licking (Jun 6, 2022)

Missed marketing bundle: roasted maple neck/roasted pickups


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## ArtDecade (Jun 6, 2022)

trem licking said:


> Missed marketing bundle: roasted maple neck/roasted pickups


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## bostjan (Jun 6, 2022)

trem licking said:


> Missed marketing bundle: roasted maple neck/roasted pickups


Mmm roasted maple/walnut neck with roasted pickups and a honeyburst glazed body. Dripple a little nut sauce over the strings.



ArtDecade said:


>


Oh, I misunderstood that the tuners used "planetary gears," not "Planter's gears."


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## Sermo Lupi (Jun 6, 2022)

SCJR said:


> Anyone aware of this being implemented elsewhere? I've never heard of it before but I'm also not in the custom spheres much where I'd guess this has possibly been offered before.





bostjan said:


> The method is novel (AFAIK), but the basic idea has been done several times in the past by angling either the neck pocket or the heel (usually 10-15)° toward the player's head. Lace (the same who made the lace sensor pickups and alumitones etc) was the most well-known. The fact that virtually no one remembers it existed might indicate how popular the idea was at the turn of the millennium, though.



Yep, I remember folks getting excited about this in the ergonomic community back in the day. It was always the neck tilting the other way, though, to cause less flexion in the wrist. Aside from Lace, a company named Torzal was building most of the ones I saw, including replacement necks for guitars like the Klein seen below. 

Looks like Torzal is still at it. Some really whacky examples of tilted necks on that website. 

Also found this quote on the BTEG blog about the Klein: 



> Granted, the Torzal Twist neck may not be for everyone. If you’re still craning your neck to watch your fretting hand, then having the neck twist away at the nut may make it harder to see what you’re doing. But for the experienced musician suffering from RSI or the guitarist seeking to practice prevention, Little Guitar Works may just have the answer for you.



It's notable that tilting the neck the other way could have the opposite effect of putting more strain on the wrist. It'd only be slight, but then so is the benefit of tilting the fretboard for better visibility. 

I can see how a tilt away from the player could provide a slight ergonomic benefit. Tilting towards the player so they can see better mostly seems to be a gimmick.


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## bostjan (Jun 6, 2022)

Yeah, I forgot the name of Torzal. I've seen at least one where the bridge was tilted, too, but I can't remember the name of the builder. I just recall thinking it would be easier to just slant the back of the guitar so the entire thing was angled better.

On second thought, you have a very good point (kind of obvious actually) that tilting the fretboard toward the player is anti-ergonomic. If you play touchstyle, maybe it would make some sense, but standard style playing is going to be less comfortable. I don't ever recall a time where I thought to myself, "Gee, I wish the fretboard was tilted a little more toward me."

Someone ought to make a guitar with slanted frets and a slanted fretboard, though, maximum ergo.


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## lost_horizon (Jun 6, 2022)




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## SpaceDock (Jun 6, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Yep, I remember folks getting excited about this in the ergonomic community back in the day. It was always the neck tilting the other way, though, to cause less flexion in the wrist. Aside from Lace, a company named Torzal was building most of the ones I saw, including replacement necks for guitars like the Klein seen below.
> 
> Looks like Torzal is still at it. Some really whacky examples of tilted necks on that website.
> 
> ...


This! Tilting away would be really ergonomic while standing. Tilting towards is a gimmick. If you are buying a 4K guitar and need to be watching your fingers on the board you should have spent that money on lessons.


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## syzygy (Jun 6, 2022)

lost_horizon said:


> View attachment 108825


Not to mention that in that particular pickup shootout video the Ionizers sounded better in a lot of contexts, even for some of the clean parts!


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## RevelGTR (Jun 6, 2022)

The scale length choices ruin it for me. It’s a 7 that sounds like a standard scale 7 on the low strings and… even worse on the high strings? Wow thank you. As a Strat/Tele guy I’m biased because I think anything under 25.5” is a downgrade tonally but that aside are people clamoring for 24.75” in the “modern” guitar design space?


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## Wucan (Jun 6, 2022)

RevelGTR said:


> The scale length choices ruin it for me. It’s a 7 that sounds like a standard scale 7 on the low strings and… even worse on the high strings? Wow thank you. As a Strat/Tele guy I’m biased because I think anything under 25.5” is a downgrade tonally but that aside are people clamoring for 24.75” in the “modern” guitar design space?


I dig it because I struggle with anything longer than 25.5" as a women's gloves kinda guy  

The usual Abasi crowd though, it's a weird choice indeed. To me EBMM is speaking more to their usual crowd and trying to sell them into multiscale rather than pleasing SSO & co.


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## SCJR (Jun 6, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Looks like Torzal is still at it. Some really whacky examples of tilted necks on that website.



If they ever made a 24 fret model I'd actually seriously consider that.

Also didn't know Lace made guitars. Only familiar with the pickups.

Edit: After looking at the custom options seems like they'll do pretty much anything so I'm sure 24 frets wouldn't be out of the question.


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## kamello (Jun 7, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> I like it. I think Tosin has a good eye for modern but balanced guitar designs, which Music Man does not always get right (I'm looking at you Luke and JP15). I'd like to play one at least.


oh come on, the JP15 is the best JP apart from the JPX


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## M3CHK1LLA (Jun 7, 2022)

a DIY on how to tilt the neck on your guitar. little known fact...it was discovered when this guy decided to clean his LP.


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## Wucan (Jun 7, 2022)

M3CHK1LLA said:


> a DIY on how to tilt the neck on your guitar. little known fact...it was discovered when this guy decided to clean his LP.




Not to derail the thread, but being able to understand what he's saying makes it all the more hilarious 

"Pour a little bit of water" while dropping a literal bucketload 
"Do a bit of nibbling here" while scrubbing the life out of the guitar
"No fear, you can't be scared while doing this" 

And there must be more footage after this video ends because he says he's going to "assemble" the guitar


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## ItWillDo (Jun 7, 2022)

kamello said:


> oh come on, the JP15 is the best JP apart from the JPX


JPXI & JP12 master race


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## Kyle Jordan (Jun 7, 2022)

Wucan said:


> To me EBMM is speaking more to their usual crowd and trying to sell them into multiscale rather than pleasing SSO & co.


That's my thinking as well regarding the scale length choices.


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## jephjacques (Jun 7, 2022)

ItWillDo said:


> JPXI & JP12 master race


I still regret trading away my JPXI. That's the guitar that started the EBMM bug for me.


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## ItWillDo (Jun 7, 2022)

jephjacques said:


> I still regret trading away my JPXI. That's the guitar that started the EBMM bug for me.


I understand completely; I've considered selling it a few times as it doesn't get nearly the amount of play time it deserves, but it would break my heart honestly.

So I decided to start a collection and I'm on the lookout for a JP12, but they're getting super rare it seems.

Also, on more relevant matters, anyone got an idea on the pricing yet?


----------



## trem licking (Jun 7, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Yep, I remember folks getting excited about this in the ergonomic community back in the day. It was always the neck tilting the other way, though, to cause less flexion in the wrist. Aside from Lace, a company named Torzal was building most of the ones I saw, including replacement necks for guitars like the Klein seen below.
> 
> Looks like Torzal is still at it. Some really whacky examples of tilted necks on that website.
> 
> ...


Could you imagine the look of horror when a used buyer 40 years from now takes this to a shop for repair?! Get out the heat clamps!


----------



## SCJR (Jun 7, 2022)

ItWillDo said:


> anyone got an idea on the pricing yet?



Think I saw 3.7k somewhere in here?


----------



## lewstherin006 (Jun 7, 2022)

SCJR said:


> Think I saw 3.7k somewhere in here?


Pricing hasnt been released yet. They wouldnt even tell us a price at NAMM.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 7, 2022)

lewstherin006 said:


> Pricing hasnt been released yet. They wouldnt even tell us a price at NAMM.





r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I preordered it. 3.7k after tax. Expected later this year holiday season time





r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Sweetwater!


----------



## lewstherin006 (Jun 7, 2022)

lol well that is good to know. They didnt tell us the pricing at the FAQ.


----------



## Alberto7 (Jun 8, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Yep, I remember folks getting excited about this in the ergonomic community back in the day. It was always the neck tilting the other way, though, to cause less flexion in the wrist. Aside from Lace, a company named Torzal was building most of the ones I saw, including replacement necks for guitars like the Klein seen below.
> 
> Looks like Torzal is still at it. Some really whacky examples of tilted necks on that website.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I just so happened to watch a video where they quickly show a Torzal bass: (linked minute 8:27)


Honestly, that makes a LOT more sense to me than what the Kaizen attempts to do.

I still have very mixed feelings about the Kaizen.
It just doesn't look the part to me. Kinda looks like the life-sized version of a toy that would come with a shitty 80's hair metal action figure.
80's guitars were wildly shaped and also looked plastic-y, but they didn't have that air of pretentiousness and "look-at-me-I'm-so-aDvaNCeD"ness that the Abasi brand carries with it.
It strikes me as less avant-garde and more like it came out of a bored 15-year old's math notebook.

Yet, I somehow still do like the shape (probably just by virtue of being something that is finally and actually different and unique) and it's very reasonable to believe it'll be a great quality instrument.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 8, 2022)

lewstherin006 said:


> Pricing hasnt been released yet. They wouldnt even tell us a price at NAMM.



I have already received pricing. It was 3.7k after taxes so it's about 3500. 

For reference, I special ordered through dealer.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 8, 2022)

Keep in mind, this will be a limited first release. Which means scalpers gonna scalp. You want to get in and preorder early. 

I don't want to see any of you complaining when the model gets scalped on reverb for 5k because full release isn't until next year LOL


----------



## lewstherin006 (Jun 8, 2022)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I have already received pricing. It was 3.7k after taxes so it's about 3500.
> 
> For reference, I special ordered through dealer.


I should preorder it to review it but I really want a Mayo lol


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 8, 2022)

lewstherin006 said:


> I should preorder it to review it but I really want a Mayo lol



Well you could prob sell the kaizen for clsoe to or more of what you buy it for.


----------



## eaeolian (Jun 8, 2022)

Randy said:


> One of the prominent things about the Kaizen announcement was "hey, I'm Tosin Abasi and I don't make a 7 string with a tremolo. This is unique!" and then he announces he's making a 7 string with a trem the very next day.


No fan, though.


----------



## The Blue Ghost (Jun 8, 2022)

ItWillDo said:


> JPXI & JP12 master race


They really are the best. Will never part with my JP12 7-string


----------



## lewstherin006 (Jun 8, 2022)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Sweetwater!


Just asked my sweetwater rep if I could preorder one and he said EBMM hasnt given it a sku so he cant preorder it.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 8, 2022)

lewstherin006 said:


> Just asked my sweetwater rep if I could preorder one and he said EBMM hasnt given it a sku so he cant preorder it.


SPC316048

Ernie Ball Music Man Kaizen​1​$3,449.00​$3,449.00​

This is from my confirmation.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 8, 2022)

lewstherin006 said:


> Just asked my sweetwater rep if I could preorder one and he said EBMM hasnt given it a sku so he cant preorder it.



IT is also possible they disabled preorders after Monday. I called my guy at like 7:30AM


----------



## ItWillDo (Jun 9, 2022)

The Blue Ghost said:


> They really are the best. Will never part with my JP12 7-string


Should you ever change your mind, you know where to find me


----------



## The Blue Ghost (Jun 9, 2022)

ItWillDo said:


> Should you ever change your mind, you know where to find me


Okay haha. Got it for under 2k eur too which was a great deal aswell. Though not likely it would be stellar if ebmm would make a roasted maple neck version with the exact same insanely thin and flat profile in the future, though it's still insane how a gloss neck can be so smooth that you don't even think about the fact that it's a bolt on guitar with a gloss neck while playing


----------



## sell2792 (Jun 9, 2022)

ItWillDo said:


> JPXI & JP12 master race



I've got a JPX7 & a JP15 - either an XI or 12 is on my list for my next purchase, but I've committed to finding a 47th anniversary JP12 with a flame (not quilt) top in Bahama Blue. I think they made like maybe ten so it's probably never happening. 

Sparkly red boi it is.


----------



## The Blue Ghost (Jun 10, 2022)

sell2792 said:


> I've got a JPX7 & a JP15 - either an XI or 12 is on my list for my next purchase, but I've committed to finding a 47th anniversary JP12 with a flame (not quilt) top in Bahama Blue. I think they made like maybe ten so it's probably never happening.
> 
> Sparkly red boi it is.


Sparkly red boii is the best boii


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jun 12, 2022)

Long thread, apologies if it had been mentioned b4, but do we know how much this thing costs? For MM, which I usually find their design taste abhorrent (e.g. bongo bass), I think it's ok, reminds be a bit of the Albert Lee model (another gem in their catalog). My 2 cents here, kinda literally 
1. This thing is not gonna be cheap, so personally, I'd rather spend the same/comparable money on something else, something more modern, e.g. Aristides.
2. Going 24.75"-25.5" on the fan seems like a marketing decision rather than what such an instrument needs/requires. Makes it look like so that someone can claim they bought a MS. This imho is worse than going all 25.5", k, so I'm missing the boat on this one.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 12, 2022)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Long thread, apologies if it had been mentioned b4, but do we know how much this thing costs?


Someone preordered it and said they paid ~$3700 I believe?


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Someone preordered it and said they paid ~$3700 I believe?


meeee


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jun 13, 2022)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Long thread, apologies if it had been mentioned b4, but do we know how much this thing costs? For MM, which I usually find their design taste abhorrent (e.g. bongo bass), I think it's ok, reminds be a bit of the Albert Lee model (another gem in their catalog). My 2 cents here, kinda literally
> 1. This thing is not gonna be cheap, so personally, I'd rather spend the same/comparable money on something else, something more modern, e.g. Aristides.
> 2. Going 24.75"-25.5" on the fan seems like a marketing decision rather than what such an instrument needs/requires. Makes it look like so that someone can claim they bought a MS. This imho is worse than going all 25.5", k, so I'm missing the boat on this one.


3499 but 3700 something after tax friend


----------



## works0fheart (Jun 14, 2022)

Going to kick the same dead horse that I always go for, but does this have stainless steel frets?


----------



## RobDobble6S7 (Jun 14, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> Going to kick the same dead horse that I always go for, but does this have stainless steel frets?


Unless I'm wrong all EBMM models do


----------



## works0fheart (Jun 14, 2022)

RobDobble6S7 said:


> Unless I'm wrong all EBMM models do


I kind of thought this was the case but can't find anything that says that.


----------



## lost_horizon (Jun 14, 2022)

We don't even need to wait anymore...


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 14, 2022)

lost_horizon said:


> We don't even need to wait anymore...
> View attachment 109144



Was wondering when Dall-e would make it's way here.


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jun 14, 2022)

RobDobble6S7 said:


> Unless I'm wrong all EBMM models do


Luke III does not


----------



## Empryrean (Jun 14, 2022)

lost_horizon said:


> We don't even need to wait anymore...
> View attachment 109144


I’m so mad that bottom middle one is a nicer single cut than literally all of the Abasi shapes and it doesn’t exist yet.
Reminds slightly of his Til8 which I would 100% buy if it was a production guitar


----------



## Hollowway (Jun 15, 2022)

Empryrean said:


> I’m so mad that bottom middle one is a nicer single cut than literally all of the Abasi shapes and it doesn’t exist yet.
> Reminds slightly of his Til8 which I would 100% buy if it was a production guitar



Those TILs were awesome! I know one of them had a neck warp after time, but in terms of design, those were the shiznit.


----------



## hamoftruth (Jun 19, 2022)

Seems strange for a fanned design to only be 25.5" on the low end, seems like a bit of a missed opportunity. I'm interested in the other design choices though, and love EBMM guitars. The pickups being a non-standard size might be a bit of a deal-breaker, since that makes swapping out the pickups pretty impossible.


----------



## Yousef (Jul 5, 2022)

Scale length: First I was thinking wtf. Now I'm thinking it's going to be sweet in standard 7-string tuning because you get the ease of bending .09s with the high strings while using a set of .10s.

I dig. I'd buy it, but $3k+ is over my guitar budget.


----------



## NoodleFace (Jul 6, 2022)

How will we all get famous if we aren't rocking $3700+ guitars


----------



## th3drap3ryfalls (Jul 6, 2022)

Phillip McKnight said $3,999 for pricing - first and only time I've seen somewhere mention actual cost so I have no idea how true that is.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Jul 6, 2022)

edit


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jul 6, 2022)

th3drap3ryfalls said:


> Phillip McKnight said $3,999 for pricing - first and only time I've seen somewhere mention actual cost so I have no idea how true that is.




Hm I was quoted 3499 by sweetwater. Gonna make em give me that price


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jul 6, 2022)

NoodleFace said:


> How will we all get famous if we aren't rocking $3700+ guitars


Be glad you don't like strats because for those guys the number is like 37k (or like 15k for a refin but the nitro isn't the saaaaaame it ruins the tooooooone)


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## works0fheart (Jul 7, 2022)

Something, something, inflation sucks and I wish I made more money.


----------



## Buffnuggler (Jul 11, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> Be glad you don't like strats because for those guys the number is like 37k (or like 15k for a refin but the nitro isn't the saaaaaame it ruins the tooooooone)



unless you just buy a new one lol!!! or one from any year pre-71 

people hate on 71-75 teles cause the bodies change and the necks have so much poly they never wear but if you can find a light one they are amazing guitars for the money and a lot of them still have pretty thin finishes with nitro too so they get that cool glow. mid seventies is where they start slathering the bodies poly.


----------



## Andromeda02 (Oct 22, 2022)




----------



## cardinal (Oct 22, 2022)

Cyclonus was always my fav


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Oct 22, 2022)

Andromeda02 said:


> View attachment 116120
> View attachment 116121



This makes the Kaizen infinitely more desirable to me. Cyclonus rules.


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## Wucan (Oct 28, 2022)

Saw it in action a few days ago


----------



## VisionSwords (Nov 4, 2022)

Can someone explain to me why the bridge pick up isn't slanted but the neck pick up is?


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## soul_lip_mike (Nov 4, 2022)

VisionSwords said:


> Can someone explain to me why the bridge pick up isn't slanted but the neck pick up is?


Jake E Lee tribute


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Nov 5, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Jake E Lee tribute


Tosin feels like we’re all missing a little bahgaddamown in our lives


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## spudmunkey (Nov 5, 2022)

VisionSwords said:


> Can someone explain to me why the bridge pick up isn't slanted but the neck pick up is?



They probably played with locations in some prototypes, maybe even one with a re-positionable pickup, and that's what they liked the sound of best. I have to assume neither Tosin nor EBMM would just be like, "Hey, that looks cool" without some testing. If they did tilt it, then you'd have a triangular void of negative space between the pickup and the bridge plate on the shorter scale side. Maybe they did consider that design but they thought that would look stupid so they tested it this way and it still sounded fine.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 5, 2022)

spudmunkey said:


> I have to assume neither Tosin nor EBMM would just be like, "Hey, that looks cool" without some testing.



Then you haven't been following either for very long.


----------



## spudmunkey (Nov 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Then you haven't been following either for very long.


Definitely not. Ha! Aside from aeshetic preferences towards/against Tosin's guitars, and some QC issues, are there any catastrophically bad design choices?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 5, 2022)

spudmunkey said:


> Definitely not. Ha! Aside from aeshetic preferences towards/against Tosin's guitars, and some QC issues, are there any catastrophically bad design choices?



Just because something is done because it looks cool, or perhaps no particular reason at all, doesn't make it "bad" or even "catastrophically" so. 

A lot of what we take for granted in instrument design was somewhere between a wild guess and a good hunch when they were developed. 

Heck, much of the great guitar designers never even played guitar.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not every little thing is run through some crazy level of R&D, and that's okay.


----------



## narad (Nov 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just because something is done because it looks cool, or perhaps no particular reason at all, doesn't make it "bad" or even "catastrophically" so.
> 
> A lot of what we take for granted in instrument design was somewhere between a wild guess and a good hunch when they were developed.
> 
> ...



Yea, I don't go for slanted neck singles because I care about some tonal quality. I'm not even sure which way it should slant if I want it to sound "better" to me.

Reminds me of Stef with his ESP sigs. He put in the two pickups - middle and bridge - because he liked the look of the kramer nightswan. He doesn't even use the middle one lol


----------



## spudmunkey (Nov 5, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just because something is done because it looks cool, or perhaps no particular reason at all, doesn't make it "bad" or even "catastrophically" so.
> 
> A lot of what we take for granted in instrument design was somewhere between a wild guess and a good hunch when they were developed.
> 
> ...



Oh, for sure. I get that. Many of the design considerations were even just "because it's cheaper/faster to manufacture" (bolt-on neck construction, flat necks with non-tilted-back headstock, pickguards, etc). I guess the point I was trying to make was "while it looks unconventional, I have to assume someone at put it through its paces (or at least one pace...does that make sense? Singular of "paces"?) to determine if they were making a mistake.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 5, 2022)

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, for sure. I get that. Many of the design considerations were even just "because it's cheaper/faster to manufacture" (bolt-on neck construction, flat necks with non-tilted-back headstock, pickguards, etc). I guess the point I was trying to make was "while it looks unconventional, I have to assume someone at put it through its paces (or at least one pace...does that make sense? Singular of "paces"?) to determine if they were making a mistake.



And EBMM and Abasi whatever are sort of known for just "following their heart" on this stuff. 

At the end of the day, to be frank, the orientation of the pickups isn't that big of a deal. Does it sound different one way or another? Sure. Is one objectively better or worse? Nah, not really.


----------



## gunshow86de (Nov 15, 2022)

This popped up on my Reverb feed. Still just a preorder, but some new pics/angles for those interested.






























Ernie Ball Music Man Kaizen 7-string Tosin Abasi signature Electric Guitar - Apollo Black (Preorder) | Reverb


THE KAIZEN GUITAR IN COLLABORATION WITH TOSIN ABASI Built for the modern player and influenced by Tosin Abasi’s unique design aesthetic and playing style, the Kaizen is an all-new visionary collaboration between the award-winning Ernie Ball Music Man design team, and the virtuoso guitarist...




reverb.com


----------



## broangiel (Nov 15, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> This popped up on my Reverb feed. Still just a preorder, but some new pics/angles for those interested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


$4000


----------



## Sermo Lupi (Nov 15, 2022)

The neck looks insanely thin from those angles. The falloff from the shoulders (or lack thereof) is crazy.


----------



## jco5055 (Nov 15, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> This popped up on my Reverb feed. Still just a preorder, but some new pics/angles for those interested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not the biggest fan of EBMM from a personal standpoint of having played them, but I do appreciate that in the realm of relatively big manufacturers they definitely go more proprietary and unique.


----------



## ShredmasterD (Nov 15, 2022)

I respect that EBMM is always stretching the comfort zone with their designs. They are forward looking and not milking the past, like i don't know...say Gibson, who just reissues the same 4 guitars over and over or buys a brand s name and then cheap-o- fies it by making it a low quality import.


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## jco5055 (Nov 15, 2022)

ShredmasterD said:


> I respect that EBMM is always stretching the comfort zone with their designs. They are forward looking and not milking the past, like i don't know...say Gibson, who just reissues the same 4 guitars over and over or buys a brand s name and then cheap-o- fies it buy making it a low quality import.



yeah honestly I'd put them up there with Vigier for coming up with some unique stuff that's not like Strandberg/headless crowd stuff


----------



## xzacx (Nov 15, 2022)

I’m liking this more and more. I think I’m gonna end up grabbing eventually. The seafoam-looking one might be it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 15, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> yeah honestly I'd put them up there with Vigier for coming up with some unique stuff that's not like Strandberg/headless crowd stuff



I don't know, Patrice literally invented a new, novel way to make guitar necks.

EBMM...I actually can't recall anything all that different. They mostly got big because they offered crazy good contracts to some wild card artists and a little known guy with a weird name. The early CLF days were cool, but since becoming EBMM it feels like the same "blobby Strat with humbuckers" every year.



These are still pretty cool though.


----------



## ShredmasterD (Nov 15, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, Patrice literally invented a new, novel way to make guitar necks.
> 
> EBMM...I actually can't recall anything all that different. They mostly got big because they offered crazy good contracts to some wild card artists and a little known guy with a weird name. The early CLF days were cool, but since becoming EBMM it feels like the same "blobby Strat with humbuckers" every year.
> 
> ...


EBMM was at one time an affordable US quality instrument alternative to the big boys. for a long time they were, IMO, a great deal and priced a tad lower than the competitors. my first serious guitar was a silhouette that cost about $900 and it wasnt long ago. now they are $2600 for the same guitar and fewer options. A jp6 without shield inlays was $1300. fast forward to today, they are basically all but boutique priced instruments, out of the reach of many young players. i still like them and have several, but they have definitely changed their marketing and target demographic.


----------



## gunshow86de (Nov 15, 2022)

Oh he actual plays it in this one;


EDIT:
Oh even more vids;
Looks much nicer in silver.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unxJ2IomXh4


----------



## jco5055 (Nov 15, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, Patrice literally invented a new, novel way to make guitar necks.
> 
> EBMM...I actually can't recall anything all that different. They mostly got big because they offered crazy good contracts to some wild card artists and a little known guy with a weird name. The early CLF days were cool, but since becoming EBMM it feels like the same "blobby Strat with humbuckers" every year.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I guess it's more that they do make some like bridges and such that are only available on their guitars, which is not much but more than you can say from Fender/Gibson etc


----------



## gunch (Nov 15, 2022)

Joshua De La Victoria rules I dont even care


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Nov 15, 2022)

Nice demos from non abasi/artsy fartsy guitar players.


----------



## Kyle Jordan (Nov 15, 2022)

I have to admit, this really grabs me from a looks perspective.


----------



## Sermo Lupi (Nov 15, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, Patrice literally invented a new, novel way to make guitar necks.
> 
> EBMM...I actually can't recall anything all that different. They mostly got big because they offered crazy good contracts to some wild card artists and a little known guy with a weird name. The early CLF days were cool, but since becoming EBMM it feels like the same "blobby Strat with humbuckers" every year.
> 
> ...



Sterling Ball isn't Ken Parker but the design team at EBMM can be credited with a few innovations at least. 

* Small 4+2 headstock that offers some benefits by shortening the guitar (more portable, less neck heavy). 

* Designed some of the best non-locking trems on the market. More of a quality thing than a novel idea.

* Popularized oil/wax finished necks and end-adjustment truss rods.

* Helped to popularize piezo. The JP models with it sold much better (and were offered for longer) than Ibanez, Brian Moore, etc.

* Signature models were all bespoke designs, not reconfigs of existing models. This was uncommon from other brands.

* EBMM has experimented more with their body shapes and neck profiles than any other brand of the last 20 years that I'm familiar with, and have developed some new technologies like the "game changer" switching system, and offered a few oddball products like that 30" baritone, and more.

There's other stuff on the production side as well. I think EBMM was among the first to use automation in parts of their manufacture, like the six-axis robot arm named "Ursula" that is used for buffing. 

I think of EBMM as quite an innovative company, actually. They're not necessarily re-inventing the wheel but their guitars standout for sure.


----------



## Dayn (Nov 15, 2022)

Now that I think about it, the Kaizen makes me think it'd be at home with the other guitars in Cyberpunk 2077.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 15, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Sterling Ball isn't Ken Parker but the design team at EBMM can be credited with a few innovations at least.
> 
> * Small 4+2 headstock that offers some benefits by shortening the guitar (more portable, less neck heavy).
> 
> ...



I'm not quite sure "making something popular that already exists" exactly qualifies as "innovation", and some of that list seems fairly subjective. 

I'm not hating on EBMM, I've owned many of their instruments and hold them in high regard, they've certainly crafted their own unique thing, which I think is even more important than being "innovative."


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Nov 15, 2022)

I still hate the body design. It's like a bad "modern" take on the Albert Lee design (which I love). I especially hate the different slants for the pickups vs the bridge.


----------



## Andromeda02 (Nov 15, 2022)

really dont understand why they chose a blade mini humbucker as the neck pu, like is there any third party alternatives for this"7 string slanted firebird"...? ... or eventually you need to 

widen it up for a full sized hum, not to mention customised baseplate for the slanted angle.

Also in all these demos (from Phil McKnight to official) these pu sounds sharp and harsh IDKW. I never had a chance to try his DiMarzio Ionizer sets but in demo videos Ionizers 

sounds satisfying nice and smooth.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 15, 2022)

Andromeda02 said:


> really dont understand why they chose a blade mini humbucker as the neck pu, like is there any third party alternatives for this"7 string slanted firebird"...? ... or eventually you need to
> 
> widen it up for a full sized hum, not to mention customised baseplate for the slanted angle.
> 
> ...



I doubt they were really thinking about third-party pickups when they were making these, and it definitely wouldn't be the first time they went with pickups without direct drop in replacements on the market. 

I suppose if you absolutely hate it you could send it for a rewind, which would probably cost about as much as a lot of boutique pickups on the market. 

But yeah, I don't recall anything on the market that would slot in.


----------



## Hollowway (Nov 16, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I still hate the body design. It's like a bad "modern" take on the Albert Lee design (which I love). I especially hate the different slants for the pickups vs the bridge.


I agree. I think the St. Vincent design is crazy good, and with its shape, suits her well because it’s kind of an hour glassy shape. Like when I saw that guitar, and her playing it, I thought, “yeah, that’s perfectly done.” But either I can’t figure out what’s consistent across Tosin’s models, or there isn’t anything that really relates to him. I see zero design similarities between this and the Larada. And this design looks like something an amature luthier would do. For me, anyway. It doesn’t reflect Tosin, and the design itself does t inspire me, or even feel balanced.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 16, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> I agree. I think the St. Vincent design is crazy good, and with its shape, suits her well because it’s kind of an hour glassy shape. Like when I saw that guitar, and her playing it, I thought, “yeah, that’s perfectly done.” But either I can’t figure out what’s consistent across Tosin’s models, or there isn’t anything that really relates to him. I see zero design similarities between this and the Larada. And this design looks like something an amature luthier would do. For me, anyway. It doesn’t reflect Tosin, and the design itself does t inspire me, or even feel balanced.



Darren designed the Larada, and I assume someone in the Ball camp designed this.

I think it's a good thing that this isn't just a pseudo-Larada made by EBMM. 

As for the Kaizen specifically, I think it's very much an EBMM in design. Just something about angles and little flourishes just screams contemporary EBMM. If I had never seen a Majesty or Kaizen before and saw them together I'd think there's some kind of relation.


----------



## mastapimp (Nov 16, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Darren designed the Larada, and I assume someone in the Ball camp designed this.
> 
> I think it's a good thing that this isn't just a pseudo-Larada made by EBMM.
> 
> As for the Kaizen specifically, I think it's very much an EBMM in design. Just something about angles and little flourishes just screams contemporary EBMM. If I had never seen a Majesty or Kaizen before and saw them together I'd think there's some kind of relation.


This post shows Tosin's original sketch before Darren refined it. https://darrenwilson.com/abasi-guitars/


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 16, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> This post shows Tosin's original sketch before Darren refined it. https://darrenwilson.com/abasi-guitars/



The word "refined" is doing a lot of heavy lifting.


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## Andromeda02 (Nov 16, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> This post shows Tosin's original sketch before Darren refined it. https://darrenwilson.com/abasi-guitars/


The original Tosin design feels more similar to that Rick Toone 7 string ($1.5mm)


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## Albake21 (Nov 16, 2022)

While I do like certain aspects of it, the more I look at it, the more I get the feeling I'll be looking back at this guitar in 10+ years and going "man that thing sure was ugly."


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 16, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not quite sure "making something popular that already exists" exactly qualifies as "innovation", and some of that list seems fairly subjective.
> 
> I'm not hating on EBMM, I've owned many of their instruments and hold them in high regard, they've certainly crafted their own unique thing, which I think is even more important than being "innovative."



It was just some of the things that come to mind off the top of my head. I do think popularizing certain features counts if it is something strongly identified with the brand and had a definite impact on the industry. For example, EBMM's reputation was built on their necks for a long time and it is difficult to truly innovate in this area for obvious reasons. I took your question to mean "what did EBMM bring to the industry?" rather than "what does EBMM hold patents for?". 

As an aside, I checked which patents EBMM holds and they have at least 12. Mostly for mundane stuff, but filtering out the string-related patents, there's: 

* musical instrument switching system
* guitar (design for a shape? Filed 2013)
* adjustable bridge
* compensated nut
* pickup with isolated noise-cancellation coil

That's just from a cursory search for "Ernie Ball" and "Obispo" to isolate their corporation. I think EBMM has generally taken a policy of not patenting their stuff from things that Sterling Ball has said over the years. It's notable that most of the patents have been granted since 2012 and bear the names of Sterling Ball's sons (Scott and Brian) rather than Sterling himself. Long-time employees (especially Drew Montell and Dudley Gimpel) are equally frequent. Their oldest patent is for a reinforced string (granted 1986), followed by the isolated noise-cancelling pickup (granted 1996) and the compensated nut (granted 2002).

Looking at that list, I'm surprised they haven't tried to patent a bunch of other things over the years, especially relating to musical accessories. 

From a layman's perspective, though, I'd just bring it back to the products. It's rare you see a guitar like the Kaizen come out where most aspects of the design are bespoke. Yet EBMM is putting a new guitar out like that nearly every year. They iterate (perhaps a more accurate term than "innovate"?) more than any of the other major brands that I'm aware of.


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## bostjan (Nov 16, 2022)

Meh, I've tested the RPS strings and I'm fairly well convinced that they just take their regular old strings, add a tiny brass wire, and drop them in a different package. I did a number of tests tuning them to A4 back in the early 2000's, and D'Addario plain steel strings outperformed them.

How are they patenting noise-cancelling pickups in 1996 or compensated nuts in 2002?! Those things have decades of prior art.

I do agree that EBMM is an important innovator, but your post sort of makes me want to shy away from my stance on that.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 16, 2022)

bostjan said:


> How are they patenting noise-cancelling pickups in 1996 or compensated nuts in 2002?! Those things have decades of prior art.
> 
> I do agree that EBMM is an important innovator, but your post sort of makes me want to shy away from my stance on that.



Which post? If you mean my last one, I feel like measuring innovation by patent output is a little fraught, especially in the realm of guitar manufacture where a vast amount of innovation was driven by ad hoc tinkering where patents were an afterthought. Many of the aspects of Ernie Ball's designs that I find distinctive and/or innovative are apparently not patented.

As for the pickup and compensated nut patents, the former acknowledged prior art but the patent was granted on the merit of its specific improvements. The compensated nut patent seems to have been granted on the basis it was a more elegant solution to tuning problems tackled by prior art, with specific outlines of Buzz Feiten's adjustable bridge patents, Earvana's nut and bridge patents (listed as LoJacono), and Smith's(?) compensated nut patent for a lute-type instrument. The patent application discusses deficiencies with each of those examples of prior art and differentiates the Ernie Ball compensated nut as being different from a comprehensive "tuning system".

Looking at it from a player's perspective, if you compare, say, Ernie Ball's tremolo bridges with pre-existing non-locking tremolos, the abstract features are pretty much the same even if the end-product feels and plays differently. EBMM did manage to secure a patent for their adjustable bridges. However, the patent's focus on innovation via a design that "avoids the necessity of set screws, detents, springs, removable screws and other removable fasteners, and does not require the use of tools" fails to capture the features I value as a player, especially tuning stability and the weight and feel of the tremolo's action. Having played a lot of bridges, nothing quite feels like EBMM to me, yet that distinctiveness doesn't qualify as innovation from a patent perspective.

It just calls to mind what Max said about subjectivity and innovation. I don't think the two can necessarily be contrasted because gauging innovation is in itself subjective. The products that EBMM puts out feel innovative enough to me for me to describe them that way. Quantifying that is somewhat more difficult, and I guess varies from individual to individual.

EDIT: also, the nut patent was applied for in 1998 but _granted _in 2002. The pickup patent was applied for in 1994 but granted in 1996. Not that it changes much, but some extra context as far as the timing goes.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 16, 2022)

I'd say the most innovative thing EBMM has done is convince folks they're exceptionally innovative, but even that's not a new idea.


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## bostjan (Nov 16, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> EDIT: also, the nut patent was applied for in 1998 but _granted _in 2002. The pickup patent was applied for in 1994 but granted in 1996. Not that it changes much, but some extra context as far as the timing goes.


Earvana, although they lost their lawsuit with Ernie Ball, had their first patent for a compensated nut granted in January of 1996, almost three years before Ernie Ball _applied_ for theirs. It's bullshit, if you ask me, how EBMM's attorneys were able to win that one, just given that simple fact, but whatever.

Yeah, the last post you had made about the compensated nut, it's got me all pissed off again.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 16, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd say the most innovative thing EBMM has done is convince folks they're exceptionally innovative, but even that's not a new idea.



In all seriousness, which of the major manufacturers would you put ahead of EBMM in terms of innovations over the last 20-30 years?


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## Crash Dandicoot (Nov 16, 2022)

Barely making it under the 30 year criteria but an obvious one: Parker.

Ibanez introduced the Universe in '91, I think? Barely out of the range, sadly. EBMM makes a killer guitar and the JP series are a wonder in their own right, but I wouldn't use "innovative" as the defining adjective for them.

If popularizing an idea is the criteria, Strandberg for sure.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 16, 2022)

Crash Dandicoot said:


> Barely making it under the 30 year criteria but an obvious one: Parker.
> 
> Ibanez introduced the Universe in '91, I think? Barely out of the range, sadly. EBMM makes a killer guitar and the JP series are a wonder in their own right, but I wouldn't use "innovative" as the defining adjective for them.



I mentioned Ken Parker a couple posts back as a high water mark. Parker is a difficult one, however, because they were fairly niche and weren't hugely innovative outside of the Fly. Once Ken left, the company took steps backward. 

Ibanez is the farthest thing from an innovative company. Fine guitars and all that but 95% of their production is just permutations of the same old designs from almost 40 years ago. They phone in their signature models for most artists and there's no shortage of complaints from endorsees over the very low bar of what Ibanez refuses to change about their designs. Ibanez have had a bigger impact on music than EBMM and are a larger company. Outside of that, I can't think of a single guitar that they've produced in decades that has as many design "innovations" as something like the Majesty or the Kaizen. Any of EBMM's sigs, really.


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## Crash Dandicoot (Nov 16, 2022)

Parker wasn't hugely innovative outside of the Fly? That's... the exact thing that made them innovative. Outside of the built-in boost, I can't think of anything the JP/Majesty series does that the Fly didn't do first. As an artist/endorser vehicle it is certainly unique - maybe I'm not following your meaning quite right.

I don't disagree with your stance regarding Ibanez body designs, though you'll note I specifically mentioned the Universe - if that particular instance isn't a defining landmark for you, I think we just have different perspectives and definitions on what we think is 'innovative', per se.



Sermo Lupi said:


> I can't think of a single guitar that they've produced in decades that has as many design "innovations" as something like the Majesty or the Kaizen. Any of EBMM's sigs, really.



I don't know if that's the hill to die on, man. The JP series has weight, no doubt, but the present line of EBMM sigs are a paradigm of innovation over the entirety of Hoshino production from the last multiple decades? I... can't rationalize that. I truly want to understand your outlook on this, specifically.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 16, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> In all seriousness, which of the major manufacturers would you put ahead of EBMM in terms of innovations over the last 20-30 years?



I mean, if your biggest metrics are "makes more shapes" and "makes things popular" then I'd probably say ESP, who makes more whacky shapes per capita than just about anyone, and Strandberg, who didn't invent headless guitar or anything, but sure as heck made a bunch of folks want one lately. 

Is it the number of patents? Because Gibson and Fender sure seem to try and patent a ton of stuff, but then again how much of that matters if it's not applied?

For me, it's about _making changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products._

Vigier was a great example already brought up, probably not big enough for you and a lot of interesting stuff was done prior to the arbitrary time frame established, but the 90/10 neck is easily one of the most innovative things in guitar history. To find the perfect blend and configuration of materials to make a neck that automatically bows to near perfect relief without the need for a truss rod is so much more compelling then a pickup switch no one wanted. 

Ibanez has come out with new shapes, created proprietary bridges and electronics, filed a bunch of patents, and has been fairly successful, just about all of what you find "innovative" about EBMM, but for some reason it doesn't count.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 16, 2022)

Crash Dandicoot said:


> Parker wasn't hugely innovative outside of the Fly? That's... the exact thing that made them innovative. Outside of the built-in boost, I can't think of anything the JP/Majesty series does that the Fly didn't do first. As an artist/endorser vehicle it is certainly unique - maybe I'm not following your meaning quite right.
> 
> I don't disagree with your stance regarding Ibanez body designs, though you'll note I specifically mentioned the Universe - if that particular instance isn't a defining landmark for you, I think we just have different perspectives and definitions on what we think is 'innovative', per se.
> 
> I don't know if that's the hill to die on, man. The JP series has weight, no doubt, but the present line of EBMM sigs are a paradigm of innovation over the entirety of Hoshino production from the last multiple decades? I... can't rationalize that. I truly want to understand your outlook on this, specifically.



Correct, I'm saying that the Fly was a remarkable guitar, but we're talking about companies with a consistent track record of iteration or innovation over time. Parker after Ken basically stagnated until they slid into bankruptcy. 

What do you feel was innovative about the Universe? It was certainly influential. Innovative, I'm not so sure. 

Lastly, calling any of this a hill to die on is silly. We broached the topic of innovation in the guitar industry so why not discuss it? I made an attempt to list some things I find innovative or at least distinctive about EBMM. It attracted questions about what "innovation" actually is and whether EBMM is truly a company deserving of that reputation. So I think it's fair to ask others what their definition of innovation is, and examples of companies that better represent it. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, if your biggest metrics are "makes more shapes" and "makes things popular" then I'd probably say ESP, who makes more whacky shapes per capita than just about anyone, and Strandberg, who didn't invent headless guitar or anything, but sure as heck made a bunch of folks want one lately.
> 
> Is it the number of patents? Because Gibson and Fender sure seem to try and patent a ton of stuff, but then again how much of that matters if it's not applied?
> 
> ...



Don't restrict yourself to what I said, I'm asking what your definition of "innovation" is since you seemed to disagree. 

If you're defining it as "making changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas or products", I'm not sure how Ibanez best represents that paradigm? Gibson and Fender are right out. 

The only examples I really agree with here are Strandberg and Vigier, who, for whatever reason, occupy a different segment of the guitar industry in my head than the "major" brands. If we're counting smaller manufacturers I'd add GKG, especially the stuff he did with the Turbulence models, or why not Steinberger or Klein for that matter. There's also boutique luthiers like Rick Toone, who has patented a million things to the point of re-inventing the wheel, really. Relish? Aristides? I'm unsure where to rank these relative to the larger manufacturers. 

To come back to the point, though, we're talking about innovative companies who continue to iterate every year, not any singular design from 20+ years ago. I still don't see any company doing that on the level EBMM is. The Kaizen is the latest in a line of what, 20+ guitars with a number of bespoke features EBMM's design department has produced since 2000? 

If they were all just "funny shapes" with things like "new switches no one asked for", it seems a woeful indictment of companies who do even less.


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## Wucan (Nov 17, 2022)

Dayn said:


> Now that I think about it, the Kaizen makes me think it'd be at home with the other guitars in Cyberpunk 2077.



In CP2077's world, Ola engaged in a ruthless war against other OEMs and only headless guitars survived.


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## Robslalaina (Nov 17, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> I think the St. Vincent design is crazy good, and with its shape, suits her well because it’s kind of an hour glassy shape.


Right, albeit a skinny, somewhat angular hourglass, which happens to look very hot indeed. What a woman guitar!


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## Shawn (Nov 17, 2022)

Crazy looking guitar....it looks cool but not for me.


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## bostjan (Nov 17, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Ibanez is the farthest thing from an innovative company.




That's, like, just a weird statement to me, coming from someone who said EBMM was the most innovative company.

You know that Ibanez just launched the Quest recently, right? That's obviously not for everyone (nor is the kaizen), but it's pretty innovative. But also you are talking about the *first *company to launch a production seven string guitar on a forum dedicated to the seven string guitar...  They also happened to be the first mass produced eight string manufacturer, and they were early adopters of low profile trems, lions claw routes, nonstandard pickup configurations, floating pickups, production multiscales, synth guitars, kaos pads, partially scalloped fretboards, u-bar trems, acoustic seven strings, compact full hollow bodies, piezo bridges, etc. Where else would you have been able to get a seven string guitar with a full floating piezo-equipped trem back when the RG7CST was out? And they've done some crazy shapes, too... I'm not sure what sort of innovation you want them to do that they won't do, but, just like any big manufacturer, there are a lot of things that they missed the boat on.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 17, 2022)

bostjan said:


> That's, like, just a weird statement to me, coming from someone who said EBMM was the most innovative company.
> 
> You know that Ibanez just launched the Quest recently, right? That's obviously not for everyone (nor is the kaizen), but it's pretty innovative. But also you are talking about the *first *company to launch a production seven string guitar on a forum dedicated to the seven string guitar...  They also happened to be the first mass produced eight string manufacturer, and they were early adopters of low profile trems, lions claw routes, nonstandard pickup configurations, floating pickups, production multiscales, synth guitars, kaos pads, partially scalloped fretboards, u-bar trems, acoustic seven strings, compact full hollow bodies, piezo bridges, etc. Where else would you have been able to get a seven string guitar with a full floating piezo-equipped trem back when the RG7CST was out? And they've done some crazy shapes, too... I'm not sure what sort of innovation you want them to do that they won't do, but, just like any big manufacturer, there are a lot of things that they missed the boat on.



Yes, there's lots of Ibanez fans around here and I like their guitars as much as everyone else. Ibanez is a massive company. Their experiments add up purely by virtue of that but they've mainly played it safe with their releases for the last several decades. Hell, they rolled out the red carpet for the AZ just to advertise an RG with rounded edges.

The same logic applying to EBMM applies to Ibanez here. They were not early adopters of fanned frets. Scalloping 4 frets on the JEM isn't popularizing scalloping, particularly when the Fender YJM should be credited for that. Crediting them for "floating bridges" is extremely charitable. Using licensed tech they did not invent like Kaos pads is an even more extreme example of "electronic stuff no one asked for", to paraphrase Max.

Which boils most of that list down to adding an extra string to electric and acoustic guitars which I've already said is influential but not exactly innovative.

As for the Quest, isn't Ibanez like 5-10 years late on the headless Standberg trend?


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## xzacx (Nov 17, 2022)

I don't care if it's innovative or not, I'm just happy there's a real option for a 24.75" - 25.5" multiscale from a reputable company. Sucks that it's a bolt-on, but I can live with it in exchange for the scale length range I've been wanting forever for something to keep in B standard.


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## bostjan (Nov 17, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Yes, there's lots of Ibanez fans around here and I like their guitars as much as everyone else. Ibanez is a massive company. Their experiments add up purely by virtue of that but they've mainly played it safe with their releases for the last several decades. Hell, they rolled out the red carpet for the AZ just to advertise an RG with rounded edges.
> 
> The same logic applying to EBMM applies to Ibanez here. They were not early adopters of fanned frets. Scalloping 4 frets on the JEM isn't popularizing scalloping, particularly when the Fender YJM should be credited for that. Crediting them for "floating bridges" is extremely charitable. Using licensed tech they did not invent like Kaos pads is an even more extreme example of "electronic stuff no one asked for", to paraphrase Max.
> 
> ...


How many JEMs are out in the wild versus how many YJM Strats, though?

Who had a mass produced fanned fret guitar before them? Innovating a production-process so that something that existed can be cranked out on an assembly line is still an innovation, it's just a production-side innovation and not an end-user innovation.

Who said Ibanez innovated floating bridges? Full-floating with a piezo on a seven string was what I said...

A bunch of stuff they innovated that you and I don't want, nor a bunch of stuff they did first that you don't want to give credit for, is not lack of innovation, it's you equivocating, for what reason, we may never know...


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 17, 2022)

Everyone hates to recognize it but FMIC/Gibson are absolutely the greatest in the field if you're talking sheer RND regardless of what sticks or not. Most brands aren't innovating, and at the rate of once every 3rd NAMM it pales in comparison. EBMM is however commendable, and drives a lot of their business on their newest ventures. 

They operate fully on Linux too, which personally interests me quite a bit.


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## Kyle Jordan (Nov 17, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> They operate fully on Linux too, which personally interests me quite a bit.



Ok. The Gnerd in me just got interested. Have a link or anything where I can learn more about this?


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## gunshow86de (Nov 17, 2022)

Kyle Jordan said:


> Ok. The Gnerd in me just got interested. Have a link or anything where I can learn more about this?











Rockin' on without Microsoft


Sterling Ball, whose company is the world's leading maker of premium guitar strings, explains why he made the move to open source and why he's never looked back since.




www.cnet.com





TL;DR 

Microsoft sent their goons after them; EBMM switched to Linux.


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## Kyle Jordan (Nov 17, 2022)

gunshow86de said:


> Rockin' on without Microsoft
> 
> 
> Sterling Ball, whose company is the world's leading maker of premium guitar strings, explains why he made the move to open source and why he's never looked back since.
> ...


Thanks for sharing. 

I'm not big on EBMM guitar or strings wise, but I can damn sure tell you I'm going to be buying some new Big Poppa rubs pretty soon. May pick up a MAK from him too after the new year.


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## SCJR (Nov 17, 2022)

xzacx said:


> I don't care if it's innovative or not, I'm just happy there's a real option for a 24.75" - 25.5" multiscale from a reputable company. Sucks that it's a bolt-on, but I can live with it in exchange for the scale length range I've been wanting forever for something to keep in B standard.


I'm with you. I'm not gonna be buying one but every time I pick up my fiance's Zach Myers I'm like fuck this scale length is so comfortable, this must be what Vai and Tosin and all of those other big hand freaks feel like when they pick up at 25.5+ lol.


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## Andromeda02 (Nov 17, 2022)

SCJR said:


> I'm with you. I'm not gonna be buying one but every time I pick up my fiance's Zach Myers I'm like fuck this scale length is so comfortable, this must be what Vai and Tosin and all of those other big hand freaks feel like when they pick up at 25.5+ lol.


Back to TAM100 era it was 27 scale length no fanned fret , and now with ebmm he switched to gibson scale length... 
Somehow I wish to see a 27'' 6 string larada with larger chambered body lol, like the Gibson Buckethead model.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 18, 2022)

bostjan said:


> How many JEMs are out in the wild versus how many YJM Strats, though?
> 
> Who had a mass produced fanned fret guitar before them? Innovating a production-process so that something that existed can be cranked out on an assembly line is still an innovation, it's just a production-side innovation and not an end-user innovation.
> 
> ...



The popularization argument got shot down when I proposed it, but to the extent I feel it's valid, I don't feel the JEM even counts as a scalloped guitar.

The mass production of fanned fret guitars postdated extended range instruments using that technology by more than 30 years. Novax was granted the patent for it in 1989 and was building small-batch production models not long after (and custom instruments since the 70s). If you want to talk "mass" production, that credit would probably go to Strandberg, who was doing it at least 5+ years before Ibanez. 

Parker had floating piezo bridges in 1993. Regardless, it was definitely the EBMM Petrucci models that put that technology in the most hands starting in 2001/2002. Ibanez' experiment with it lasted about a year, starting in 2000. 

None of this is equivocating. I give a little pushback in the same way I was receiving it and suddenly it's unfair? 95% of what Ibanez makes is RGs in different colorways. That's a poor counterpoint for an innovation leader, especially in light of EBMM's contributions over the least 10 years, one of which this thread is currently trying to discuss...


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 18, 2022)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Regardless, it was definitely the EBMM Petrucci models that put that technology in the most hands starting in 2001/2002. Ibanez' experiment with it lasted about a year, starting in 2000.



Ibanez started offering Piezo equipped floating bridges in 98'/99', mostly on JCRGs, and made it available on further instruments for a decade, with the end of production of the RG1820X in 09'.

In total they offered 17 guitars with floating Piezo equipped bridges, four individual bridges with locking and non-locking versions.


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## bostjan (Nov 18, 2022)

Didn't Strandberg only start mass production on multiscales in, like 2017? I thought they were only doing small batches at Ola's personal shop prior to that. Ibanez launched their MS series in 2018.

Anyway, if you are going to start by saying "I don't feel" that something should count as an innovation, whilst arbitrarily deciding that other things count as innovation, or that one company should get credit for innovating something that _at least_ *three* other companies mass produced prior, yet insist you are not making any equivocation, I think we're just going to have to be done with the discussion. If you insist that it needs to go on, PM me, otherwise, I won't respond any further on that particular tangent to the discussion.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 18, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Didn't Strandberg only start mass production on multiscales in, like 2017? I thought they were only doing small batches at Ola's personal shop prior to that. Ibanez launched their MS series in 2018.



Non-custom shop, so not made in Sweden, Ohio, or Illinois was announced around 2015, and started shipping the following year, minus a couple small prototype batches that were floating between dealers and trade shows. Wide availability wasn't until at least mid/late 2017, so your timeline is damn close.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 18, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Ibanez started offering Piezo equipped floating bridges in 98'/99', mostly on JCRGs, and made it available on further instruments for a decade, with the end of production of the RG1820X in 09'.
> 
> In total they offered 17 guitars with floating Piezo equipped bridges, four individual bridges with locking and non-locking versions.



I'm aware, at least as far as the RG7CST being available in 1999. EBMM was producing piezo-equipped prototypes for Petrucci in 1999/2000. Production models of the Axis Super Sport and Silhouette had piezo in 1999, not sure how much farther back it goes than that. Neither pre-date Parker and both were niche at that time (those RG7CSTs were a limited production run of 24, some say fewer).

Arguing Ibanez made them more widely available than EBMM is a massive stretch.



bostjan said:


> Anyway, if you are going to start by saying "I don't feel" that something should count as an innovation, whilst arbitrarily deciding that other things count as innovation, or that one company should get credit for innovating something that _at least_ *three* other companies mass produced prior, yet insist you are not making any equivocation, I think we're just going to have to be done with the discussion. If you insist that it needs to go on, PM me, otherwise, I won't respond any further on that particular tangent to the discussion.



It is absolutely no different than the objections to EBMM offered two pages ago. I do find it amusing when it's Ibanez having their innovation challenged, the hackles come up.

From the outset I offered what _in my opinion _qualified as some things EBMM does I find innovative. You and Max scoffed (which is fine, it's an opinion), and offered even worse examples of innovation by other companies that are equally subjective.

I agree it's time to move on.


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## BusinessMan (Nov 18, 2022)

I said it in the video, but it looks like ebmm takes on the broderick soloist l.


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## works0fheart (Nov 19, 2022)

BusinessMan said:


> I said it in the video, but it looks like ebmm takes on the broderick soloist l.



Do you mean that it's their version of that Broderick or that it competes with it? I realize both of these sound like the same question. In any case, as much as I like EBMM I have a hard time thinking that this guitar would be on that level. There are some cool novelties to it, sure, but even for all of Jackson's flaws lately, those Broderick soloists are some of the best super strat style guitars out there right now.


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## mastapimp (Nov 19, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> Do you mean that it's their version of that Broderick or that it competes with it? I realize both of these sound like the same question. In any case, as much as I like EBMM I have a hard time thinking that this guitar would be on that level. There are some cool novelties to it, sure, but even for all of Jackson's flaws lately, those Broderick soloists are some of the best super strat style guitars out there right now.


I think you're reading too far into his comment. if you squint your eyes, it kinda resembles the offset broderick shape.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Nov 21, 2022)

Hm the silver one being available as a limited color is kind of a let down. Looking at the ebmm only 21 of the 75 have even sold. Guess the hype wasn't there?


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## jephjacques (Nov 23, 2022)

It's a really extreme shape, I wouldn't be shocked if the average EBMM player wasn't interested. I'm still on the fence about it, and I generally like goofy-looking guitars.


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## CanserDYI (Nov 23, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Non-custom shop, so not made in Sweden, Ohio, or Illinois was announced around 2015, and started shipping the following year, minus a couple small prototype batches that were floating between dealers and trade shows. Wide availability wasn't until at least mid/late 2017, so your timeline is damn close.


Wait Strandberg had models built in Ohio and Illinois? Or am I misunderstanding this?


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## bostjan (Nov 23, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Wait Strandberg had models built in Ohio and Illinois? Or am I misunderstanding this?


Yes. Washburn's USA custom shop made a bunch of them and so did Strictly 7 in Ohio (I think, at the time, the shop was Jim and one other builder). No idea how many total were made in those locations, but it's nothing like how many are getting cranked out of the Indo factory.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 23, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Wait Strandberg had models built in Ohio and Illinois? Or am I misunderstanding this?



Yeah, what @bostjan said.

They've also been built at Desert Son (Fano) in Arizona, and are built in Japan at DynaGakki. 

I don't know if Ola pissed in the skull of a dead Native American or something, but he has absolutely no luck with finding American manufacturers.


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## Agalloch (Nov 23, 2022)

It's a very interesting guitar shape and I'm glad EBMM is putting out some wild stuff. Though, what I imagine puts some players off is how propriety everything is (I think the same is true to a slightly lesser extent with the Petrucci guitars). At least for someone like me, the idea of doing something like swapping pickups in this guitar is daunting. You've got the mini humbucker that's slanted at some custom angle and a PCB board for the electronics. And then there's the odd shape and tuners, the uncommon radius, and the non-standard multi-scale.

And then there's the fact that despite "not being a signature guitar" it really reads like one. It has such a distinctive look/features that it's hard not to feel like it's a "Tosin guitar." And if you want a guitar that's a little _less_ particular, well, then this ain't for you.

So this is the type of guitar you have to _know_ that you'll like, which is hard to say if you don't have the chance to actually play it. And at $4k, that's a huge gamble to take.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 23, 2022)

jephjacques said:


> It's a really extreme shape, I wouldn't be shocked if the average EBMM player wasn't interested. I'm still on the fence about it, and I generally like goofy-looking guitars.



The shape has grown on me, I think it looks particularly good in the silver finish. 

The main hangups I'd have if I were to buy it as a main guitar is: 

1) slanted mini-humbucker in the neck. You'd have to get something custom wound if you ever wanted to replace it. 

2) 24.75"-25.5" is an odd thing to bother fanning the frets for. You'd think on a 7 string they'd have gone 25.5"-26.5" instead. Gibson scale on a guitar like this is unusual. 

3) The position of the bridge and bridge humbucker. Less from a sonic perspective for me, it's more about how it'd feel to palm mute on the bridge with the bass side located that far back. Note how short/shallow the arm cut is as well; not much support if rooting your hand on the bridge. 

I'd want to try before I buy for sure. There's other minor stuff. Switch position seems a bit awkward or it could be completely fine. Neck feel is something you can't judge from photos. 

Lastly, why is the silver limited edition model shown with black hardware on the site, yet had silver hardware and pickups in all the promo images?


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## Ben Pinkus (Nov 23, 2022)

^ It looks better with the black hardware imo. 

The shape has grown on me, but don't think it'll be something I'm gonna go for


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## 77zark77 (Nov 23, 2022)

I want an orange one with yellow pickups ! This strange shape needs a so-strange aspect
No need to fade the shape with flat finishings


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## bostjan (Nov 23, 2022)

77zark77 said:


> I want an orange one with yellow pickups ! This strange shape needs a so-strange aspect
> No need to fade the shape with flat finishings


No orange. Black, white, blue, or more different blue. You could replace the bridge pickup with an aftermarket one that is yellow, but good luck finding an aftermarket slanted minihumbucker that is yellow for the neck.

The shape is growing on me, too. At first I was like "meh," but now I'm like "meh???" I don't ever see myself owning one, but I'd love to demo one and see what the strange features are like in practice.

Still refreshing to see something different, so I hope these sell well. Maybe well enough that they can add a third blue colour option someday.


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## 77zark77 (Nov 23, 2022)

@bostjan that's why I want an out of the frabric one ! yellow pickups...where to find' em ? lol
Swirl things break the shape, but a solid and particular simple color scheme...


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## Kyle Jordan (Nov 23, 2022)

^The pickups being covered should be easy enough to paint. Just avoid metallics and the like. Maybe thin vinyl stickers/wrap.


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## narad (Nov 24, 2022)

Kyle Jordan said:


> ^The pickups being covered should be easy enough to paint. Just avoid metallics and the like. Maybe thin vinyl stickers/wrap.



Interesting suggestion. I'm surprised we haven't seen more vinyl wrap pickup covers.


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## Kyle Jordan (Nov 24, 2022)

narad said:


> Interesting suggestion. I'm surprised we haven't seen more vinyl wrap pickup covers.



I agree. 

I have looked off and on at some vinyl wrap rolls, but they seem quite thick from what I have seen. 

Kind of surprised a company like Neck Illusions hasn't put something out test the market.


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## works0fheart (Nov 29, 2022)

I forget who it was a few pages ago, but ever since they pointed out that it's essentially just an Albert Lee body shape with some spiffy tweaks I'd rather just get an Albert Lee lol.


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## Sermo Lupi (Nov 29, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> I forget who it was a few pages ago, but ever since they pointed out that it's essentially just an Albert Lee body shape with some spiffy tweaks I'd rather just get an Albert Lee lol.



The Albert Lee shape is rad. Bear in mind it has a heavy V on the neck shape, which can be polarising for metal players. 

I don't think the Kaizen looks much like the Albert Lee as an end product, although EBMM definitely has a designer who has a type. The same seeds are there. The new Mariposa model is a more obviously tweaked Albert Lee. 

Also, the bridge placement and shortness of the arm rest on the Kaizen I was talking about a couple pages ago is very obvious when comparing the three models. Albert Lee is normal, Kaizen is short, Mariposa is exaggeratedly long (I assume the Firebird was an inspiration).


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## jephjacques (Dec 2, 2022)

ME: man I wish I could get a 7-string Albert Lee, I love those guitars

[monkey's paw curls one finger]


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## Hollowway (Dec 2, 2022)

For whatever reason, I don't like anything EBMM has, EXCEPT the St. Vincent, which I adore. I just can't get behind this Kaizen. It just looks like it's trying to be different for the sake of being different.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 2, 2022)

Every bit of the kaizen looks awkward to me. Like they designed each part separately with 4 different people, then met and put all their guitar corner designs together.


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## narad (Dec 2, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Every bit of the kaizen looks awkward to me. Like they designed each part separately with 4 different people, then met and put all their guitar corner designs together.



I guess every team has their dead weight (looking at you, lower-left corner guy)


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## The Blue Ghost (Dec 3, 2022)

To me it looks like a very comfy guitar but I'm not keen on how the bridge looks, how the bridge pickup isn't tilted so the bass strings are going to be boomier, and the neck pickup not being easily swappable. (Seriously, why the mini-humbucker?) And why for Pete's sake did they just not use their regular Schaller locking tuners? It'd be like putting retro tele tuners on the Larada for the sake of "innovation"


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 3, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> I forget who it was a few pages ago, but ever since they pointed out that it's essentially just an Albert Lee body shape with some spiffy tweaks I'd rather just get an Albert Lee lol.


twas me. The albert lee is their coolest shape by far.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 3, 2022)

I love EBMM headstocks, one of my favs, but on the Kaizen it just doesn't match. It's too round and wide.


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## jephjacques (Dec 3, 2022)

The Blue Ghost said:


> Seriously, why the mini-humbucker?)


Probably to give more clearance to your picking hand. A full size humbucker would take up a lot of room with that fan and scale length.


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## xzacx (Dec 3, 2022)

jephjacques said:


> Probably to give more clearance to your picking hand. A full size humbucker would take up a lot of room with that fan and scale length.


That could be it, or part of it. But also there's absolutely no shortage of 2H 7s. I like that it's something different. A multi-scale 7 that's not the exact same specs as every other multi-scale 7 is really the whole appeal to me.


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## The Blue Ghost (Dec 3, 2022)

jephjacques said:


> Probably to give more clearance to your picking hand. A full size humbucker would take up a lot of room with that fan and scale length.


Maybe, but then there's HSH 7-strings on the market too so I don't know if it's that big of an issue?


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## Hollowway (Dec 3, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> twas me. The albert lee is their coolest shape by far.








It's the St. Vincent!


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## CanserDYI (Dec 3, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> It's the St. Vincent!


Played a St Vincent at CME and it felt super cool on their leather couch just sitting back and plucking around, very comfy guitar and lovely necks as always on EBMM. That being said, @KnightBrolaire is correct, Albert Lee is the better


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 3, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> It's the St. Vincent!


I like the st. Vincent but it has shit upper fret access, and the mini humbucker version is doodoo.


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## StevenC (Dec 7, 2022)

The Blue Ghost said:


> (Seriously, why the mini-humbucker?)


Because mini humbuckerd are the best pickups.


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## bostjan (Dec 7, 2022)

Despite my complaints, there's one thing that I really love about this, and that's the fact that it's multiscale and has a trem that is not a kahler.

And if mini humbuckers are so great, why not throw one in the bridge position as well?

And as for the bridge...

If you are going to totally custom make a new bridge from scratch, why have the entire lip of the baseplate be perpendicular to the strings? Just make the knife edges perpendicular to the strings and angle the lip of the plate, then you can angle the bridge pickup to match the scale and keep the lower strings bright. The only reason to not do it that way is for convenience.

See, if this design was 100% bad, I wouldn't care about talking about it. If it was 100% good, I'd probably have to get a second job to save up for one. But, with it being 50% genius and 50% stupid, IDK, I just get fired up. I think that, with the Larada, there were fewer options that intrigued me, so it was easy enough to just read the thread and not comment. But this Kaizen is somewhat groundbreaking. But it also has so many ideas integrated into it that just make me ponder "why?"


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## StevenC (Dec 7, 2022)

bostjan said:


> And if mini humbuckers are so great, why not throw one in the bridge position as well?


Agreed.


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## The Blue Ghost (Dec 7, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Despite my complaints, there's one thing that I really love about this, and that's the fact that it's multiscale and has a trem that is not a kahler.
> 
> And if mini humbuckers are so great, why not throw one in the bridge position as well?
> 
> ...


My sentiments exactly. I really hope we get a revised version of this because they almost have it. That and a tremolo version of the Majesty 8 that isn't limited to some stupid BFR run with the most gaudy finish yet made by man


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## Hollowway (Dec 7, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Despite my complaints, there's one thing that I really love about this, and that's the fact that it's multiscale and has a trem that is not a kahler.
> 
> And if mini humbuckers are so great, why not throw one in the bridge position as well?
> 
> ...


100% agree. I feel this way about a LOT of designs (yes, Jeff Kiesel, I’m looking at you) where they get to “good enough” and stop. I understand the idea of Minimum Viable Product, but I don’t like it.


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## Andromalia (Dec 10, 2022)

Black model made it to Thomann for 5K. Design seemed interesting for me as the short arm rest is reminiscent of what you actually get on a V, in practice, and I like that. But black is, well, noooot really.


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## thrashcomics (Dec 10, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Agreed.


Y'all never played a guitar with different pickup types in different positions before?


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## StevenC (Dec 10, 2022)

thrashcomics said:


> Y'all never played a guitar with different pickup types in different positions before?


Yeah, but minihumbuckers are the best pickups and ideal for djenty bridge pickups. So why not use two?


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## Hollowway (Dec 10, 2022)

StevenC said:


> minihumbuckers are ideal for djenty bridge pickups.


Huh, never thought about that, but it makes sense. I'll have to mess around with a mini if I can find a guitar with one.


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## DiezelMonster (Dec 14, 2022)

Just got a black Kaizen at my store today.

It's pretty neat so far.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 14, 2022)

DiezelMonster said:


> Just got a black Kaizen at my store today.
> 
> It's pretty neat so far.


Able to get some pics of it in the wild and not under studio lights and YouTuber lights?


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## DiezelMonster (Dec 14, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Able to get some pics of it in the wild and not under studio lights and YouTuber lights?


I'll try, It's a busy day here! may not happen today.


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## park0496 (Dec 15, 2022)

I got the Spectraflare in last night - it is a fun piece for sure… guitar weighs in at 6lbs 13oz

Here’s a few shitty phone pics with no flash/flash


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## StevenC (Dec 15, 2022)

This with 8 strings is the stuff of wallet nightmares


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## narad (Dec 15, 2022)

Spectralflare looks sick. I could see getting one...


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## Agalloch (Dec 15, 2022)

The more I see of the Kaizen, the more it looks like the kind of guitar that's going to look hilariously of its time ten years from now.

But that's okay, because DJENT IS NOW.


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## DiezelMonster (Dec 15, 2022)

Here are some pics of the one we got.


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## SCJR (Dec 16, 2022)

Definitely don't hate the design but I think @Agalloch is right that it wil be very much considered "of its time" aesthetically when looked back on.

Edit: The top bevel looks like it could be either the most or least comfortable on the market. Think I'm going to track one down to play but don't think I'd ever be in the market for one at the current price point.


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## Devnor (Dec 19, 2022)

park0496 said:


> I got the Spectraflare in last night - it is a fun piece for sure… guitar weighs in at 6lbs 13oz


Looks awesome...congrats! I've got a spectraflare on order but I'm probably a good 20 numbers downstream of yours.


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## DiezelMonster (Dec 22, 2022)

Aaaaaand our Kaizen Sold!

I'm going to pause on ordering another one but it was neat for sure.


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## Agalloch (Dec 22, 2022)

DiezelMonster said:


> Aaaaaand our Kaizen Sold!
> 
> I'm going to pause on ordering another one but it was neat for sure.



And now we wait for it to appear on Reverb for $10K.


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## Musiscience (Dec 22, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> And now we wait for it to appear on Reverb for $10K.


This is the right take.


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## DiezelMonster (Dec 22, 2022)

Agalloch said:


> And now we wait for it to appear on Reverb for $10K.


Are they that rare? I mean I will get another one in a couple weeks for my distribution center


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## xzacx (Dec 22, 2022)

I’m doubtful anyone is gonna get $10k when there are brand new ones available for retail. Seems like it’d be a waste of effort to list them like that.


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## Hollowway (Dec 22, 2022)

xzacx said:


> I’m doubtful anyone is gonna get $10k when there are brand new ones available for retail. Seems like it’d be a waste of effort to list them like that.


Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Reverb, good sir! The idea is to list a decidedly NOT rare guitar for substantially more than a new guitar, seemingly oblivious to all logic pointing to this being a dumb move.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 22, 2022)

The flare finish is amazing but yeeesh that upper fret access looks terrible for something that is supposed to be “modern”.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 22, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> For whatever reason, I don't like anything EBMM has, EXCEPT the St. Vincent, which I adore. I just can't get behind this Kaizen. It just looks like it's trying to be different for the sake of being different.


Same here, but I could have easily ignored the cosmetics had the fan been of any use. I feel the fan decision was totally pretentious and of no use to the vast majority of modern metal players.


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## Agalloch (Dec 23, 2022)

DiezelMonster said:


> Are they that rare? I mean I will get another one in a couple weeks for my distribution center



I'm just poking fun. Seems common for people to flip "hot new releases" though. People were even trying to flip the PRS Silver Sky SE for absurd amounts of cash when it first came out.

Plus, the _other_ Abasi guitars occasionally get listed at crazy prices.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 23, 2022)

Mathemagician said:


> The flare finish is amazing but yeeesh that upper fret access looks terrible for something that is supposed to be “modern”.



Are we looking at the same guitar? The cutaway is right to the last fret, then there's the shaping. Heel hits around 18, and is shaved back a bit to 20-ish. 

I know folks these days want to be able to press the 24th with the first knuckle of their index finger, but I'd say this guitar looks like it has something between great and excellent upper fret access.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 23, 2022)

The heel curve is right where it connects around the 15th fret. I would expect the heel to be further back.

Edit: I guess it connects at the 17th which is better. Still though, imo could have been neater neck-through. But this is squarely in “guitars I’d never buy” range anyways. Very cool but not for me.


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## Thaeon (Dec 28, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Reverb, good sir! The idea is to list a decidedly NOT rare guitar for substantially more than a new guitar, seemingly oblivious to all logic pointing to this being a dumb move.



Yes, and same account will run around complaining that others won’t accept their low ball offers on things fairly priced.


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## Thaeon (Dec 28, 2022)

I think it’s an interesting design. I think it’s a really weird pairing when he’s already got his own company. I find myself asking why…. It’s not like any of his shops couldn’t have made this. I wonder if the demand for top end Abasi guitars has driven him to seek out a bigger, reputable builder to get stuff out to market with his name on it. Just a really big “Wut?” If it’s an EBMM made in the US shop I have no doubt it will be a fine instrument. 

Also…. Heat treated pickups?? There is nothing in my knowledge of physics and my long years in IT that makes me think that heat exposure for any electronic component will do anything positive. In fact, I would expect worse electrical performance afterward…


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## zimbloth (Dec 28, 2022)

My shop has the Kaizen 7 in both colors if anyones interested in a good deal. It plays outstanding. Its looks are polarizing but theres no doubting its an excellent guitar.


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## TimmyPage (Saturday at 2:01 PM)

zimbloth said:


> My shop has the Kaizen 7 in both colors if anyones interested in a good deal. It plays outstanding. Its looks are polarizing but theres no doubting its an excellent guitar.


Yeah I got a chance to try one today in a store near me. Plays exceptionally comfortably, and the neck pickup especially sounded fantastic (didn't get a chance to try it with any gain, but all positions through a fender twin sounded great).


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