# Sub-contra bass...



## cichra (Jul 12, 2012)

I've seen a few posts here with bass players discussing how they should approach setting up their instruments to play with guitarists who use extended range guitars, especially 8 string guitars with for example a low F# or E.

My band's practice space is right next to the practice space of Jauqo III-X, a Chicago-area bass player. We were hanging out with him the other day and he showed us a custom bass of his called the sub-contra bass... a bass which has the standard bass guitar E as its HIGHEST string and a B, F#, and C#(!!!) below that. 

This thing was ridiculous... the absurd low notes this thing is capable of were monstrous, but also clear and articulate. The low C# string was as thick as a curtain rod. 

I did a search here; this bass has been discussed a handful of times but not as often as I'd expect; I thought I'd post about it again so that any bass players on here wondering about lower extended-range tunings can know about this option.

The bass is made by Surine. Info about it here:
Jauqo III-X - Chicago bass player


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## VBCheeseGrater (Jul 12, 2012)

Pretty cool - i wonder how close that C# is to the limits of human hearing. That string is ridiculously thick!


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 12, 2012)

vbshredder said:


> Pretty cool - i wonder how close that C# is to the limits of human hearing. That string is ridiculously thick!



Jacquo would claim that he can hear the extent it the C#00 and even the nuances of a B00 (and he has proven that he can do so) but most people cannot.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 12, 2012)

The Extended Range Bass is a wonderful addition to a wide variety of music. There are cats like Al Caldwell, Stew Mckinsey, Jean baudin, Scott Plummer, Frederick Filiatrault and others who demonstrate it's abilities in bands and stuff. 
There are others who like to show what they can do without bands =) 

A LOT (and I mean a flippin' lot) of people buy them as status symbols and that is one of the main reasons why so many of the people who built these instrument types no longer do so or they charge an absurd amount of money for them. They do it because they don't just want any wanker to go out there and use only a portion of the instrument.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Jul 12, 2012)

Scott Fernandez said:


> Jacquo would claim that he can hear the extent it the C#00 and even the nuances of a B00 (and he has proven that he can do so) but most people cannot.



Cool, thanks for the info. I'm interested to hear it myself in person. I'm sure it can be FELT, either way


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## cichra (Jul 12, 2012)

Scott Fernandez said:


> A LOT (and I mean a flippin' lot) of people buy them as status symbols and that is one of the main reasons why so many of the people who built these instrument types no longer do so or they charge an absurd amount of money for them. They do it because they don't just want any wanker to go out there and use only a portion of the instrument.


 
I can see this happening, and can understand why a builder would take pride to not build for someone who won't take full advantage of the instrument. On the other hand, as I was listening to Jauqo play it, all I could think about was how in the hands of the right metal band, this instrument could be used to make absolutely crushing, devastating music. Even if that meant a whole lot of riding on a repeated low F# (or even the C#?) I think more metal bands could use instruments like these to make original, interesting art. I'm surprised we haven't heard more bands trying it (After the Burial are one band I know of where the bass player uses an F# below the bass E to match the guitarists' 8-string guitars). 

Oh, and on hearing the low C#... it sounded like a note to me. I don't think I have special hearing or anything. Maybe there's a technical distinction I'm not aware of between hearing the note vs. hearing noise or just feeling vibration... but as I said, if anything I was surprised by the clarity of the low notes on the instrument.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 12, 2012)

cichra said:


> I can see this happening, and can understand why a builder would take pride to not build for someone who won't take full advantage of the instrument. On the other hand, as I was listening to Jauqo play it, all I could think about was how in the hands of the right metal band, this instrument could be used to make absolutely crushing, devastating music. Even if that meant a whole lot of riding on a repeated low F# (or even the C#?) I think more metal bands could use instruments like these to make original, interesting art. I'm surprised we haven't heard more bands trying it (After the Burial are one band I know of where the bass player uses an F# below the bass E to match the guitarists' 8-string guitars).
> 
> Oh, and on hearing the low C#... it sounded like a note to me. I don't think I have special hearing or anything. Maybe there's a technical distinction I'm not aware of between hearing the note vs. hearing noise or just feeling vibration... but as I said, if anything I was surprised by the clarity of the low notes on the instrument.




Jacquo is a cut above when it comes to the pick up design and bass structure that he makes/works with. Since he can actually hear the balance of the pick ups and whether or not they are out phase and stuff, the designs he's been apart of ARE all very clear. The standard low C#00 is very floppy and inaudible. I think between the pick ups and the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, he uses at least a .210 gauge string for it that that bass would be pretty regular on the hearing spectrum. I use a .195 and it is pretty loose BUT I rarely have any need to go that low and anytime I do go that low I have an adaptive system worked out for it =)

Also, metal is starting to catch on. The more guitar players encroach on the real of bass players, the more bass players will either push back by shredding in their register or adapting by going lower.


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## Semichastny (Jul 12, 2012)

I strung my stilleto custom 6 with a .174 for low G and it is completely audible, and within the month i'll be going true sub-contra as I down tune my paduak k5 to drop-g# w/ a low d#. A lot of people are skeptical but sub contras are easily audible w/ the right speakers.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Jul 12, 2012)

Here's a thread where your boy Jauqo actually chimes in with some details on his sub-contra. Some interesting posts in there.


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## knuckle_head (Jul 12, 2012)

I admire the work Jauqo has done and continues to do. Another sub bass guy and approach you should look in to is Yves Carbonne. He is French, but is in the SW US these days.

He is know for his 10 and 12 string Jerzy Drozd sub basses, but uses Noguerra as well. He even has Fenders and other assorted instruments dedicated to sub bass.

While Jauqo continues downward from traditional pitches (B F# C#), Yves tunes to octave down E and octave down B - a whole step lower.

For metal guys - Jauqo plays with a very light technique and uses light tension. Yves uses more traditional tensions to do similar work. If you are heavey handed (I am one of those) higher string tension is your friend - you'll get more string tone and be able to use a more aggressive playing technique.

I love seeing it catch on as it has!


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 12, 2012)

What's the scale on that thang?


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## knuckle_head (Jul 12, 2012)

I believe both Jauqo and Yves use 34" scale lengths.


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## Semichastny (Jul 12, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> I believe both Jauqo and Yves use 34" scale lengths.



I believe this is correct. A list of his basses can be found below.

Jauqo III-X - Chicago bass player


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## knuckle_head (Jul 12, 2012)

www.yvescarbonne.com

caveat - I just noticed he calls out and links to Circle K. I owe the man some gratitude.


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## ixlramp (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi kh  is the RIM ready for summer NAMM?


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## knuckle_head (Jul 12, 2012)

Under way - body is solid one piece cherry, neck is 3 piece carbon reinforced maple.


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## Durero (Jul 12, 2012)

^ I'm really looking forward to seeing & hearing more about your RIM Skip.

Did you go with a >40" scale length?


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 12, 2012)

Durero said:


> ^ I'm really looking forward to seeing & hearing more about your RIM Skip.
> 
> Did you go with a >40" scale length?



This one crazy guy that I know is going to be making me a bass from 40" to 35" fanned frets awesomeness
d-_-b

Here's my bass right now. Low C#00 with a 195 at the bottom.


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## knuckle_head (Jul 13, 2012)

Durero said:


> Did you go with a >40" scale length?



60"


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## Winspear (Jul 13, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> 60"



O_O


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## knuckle_head (Jul 13, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> O_O



Very upright - aiming for E00, but more important I want to know what a .142 sounds like in the traditional F# range (the .142 will actually be tuned to D0).


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## Winspear (Jul 13, 2012)

Sounds awesome, look forward to seeing it. I can't imagine 'riffing' above 38" or so haha but I'm guessing that's not the goal!


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## Vostre Roy (Jul 13, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> O_O


 
Seconded that reaction. God damn, 60" lol


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## Aurochs34 (Jul 13, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> O_O



x 3




60"


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## Durero (Jul 13, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> Very upright - aiming for E00, but more important I want to know what a .142 sounds like in the traditional F# range (the .142 will actually be tuned to D0).



That's very exciting 

I can't wait to hear how clear it sounds. 

Are you aiming to bring it to the January NAMM?


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## MF_Kitten (Jul 13, 2012)

60" scale sounds like it would be amazingly fun to play for some slow sludgy low tuned metal, with the guitars playing in regular bass territory and the bass playing in sub-bass territory


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## Vostre Roy (Jul 13, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> 60" scale sounds like it would be amazingly fun to play for some slow sludgy low tuned metal, with the guitars playing in regular bass territory and the bass playing in sub-bass territory




I like the way you think, mate.


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## ixlramp (Jul 13, 2012)

To clarify, Jauqo's 17Hz C# is actually C#0 (in actual pitch octave numbers) of standard ERB tuning C#F#BEADGCFBbEb, not C#00 as stated above. knuckle_head is aiming for E00 10Hz, 2 octaves below standard E.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 14, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> To clarify, Jauqo's 17Hz C# is actually C#0 (in actual pitch octave numbers) of standard ERB tuning C#F#BEADGCFBbEb, not C#00 as stated above. knuckle_head is aiming for E00 10Hz, 2 octaves below standard E.



DOUBLE 0 FOR THE WIN!!!!


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## knuckle_head (Jul 15, 2012)

Durero said:


> Are you aiming to bring it to the January NAMM?


My intent is to have 10 Hz on the NAMM floor - Knuckle Guitars is 10 years old this year and this is how I want to celebrate it.



MF_Kitten said:


> 60" scale sounds like it would be amazingly fun to play for some slow sludgy low tuned metal, with the guitars playing in regular bass territory and the bass playing in sub-bass territory


Sludgy low bass will be fun - but consider that tuning it E A D G C (yes, it'll be a 5 string) is a half step above D#00 G#00 C#0 F#0 B0. The gauges will be .254 .190 .142 .106 .079 - this means standard C# with a .142 and F# with a .106. I am most excited about the top end of the set; 10 Hz E is just a really cool perk.


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## TemjinStrife (Jul 15, 2012)

What are you bringing to amplify/reproduce that sound with? Signal chain?


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## ixlramp (Jul 15, 2012)

5 string with very nearly standard B as a top string


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## knuckle_head (Jul 15, 2012)

TemjinStrife said:


> What are you bringing to amplify/reproduce that sound with? Signal chain?


Still negotiating speaker suppliers - Bag End will get the nod if they are game. 2x21" Infras with a D10BX-D on top, both powered. I'll likely rely on their processor utterly for crossing over and time delay control. Jule Monique to feed that stack.

There are other options, but bird in the hand . . . .



ixlramp said:


> 5 string with very nearly standard B as a top string


Right, and a .079 to get me there - this is the actual point to the experiment. Beyond a certain point I think too much wire kills tone - I want to know where strings ACTUALLY start to lose their voice.


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## AugmentedFourth (Jul 15, 2012)

When you can tap your fingers to the beat of the sound wave being produced by your instrument, you know you're batshit insane.


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 16, 2012)

Hey Scott my C# is a SIT 195(my F# is a SIT 165) and as Skip mentioned I have a very light touch. My Surine Sub contra bass is a 35" scale( that was the bass that cichra got to check out) while my Conklin and fretless Adler( the bass that was used on the Low C# Theory recording) Sub contra basses are 34" scale.







And Skip I have a couple of Bag End ELF systems for sale if you're interested.


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## ixlramp (Jul 16, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> Right, and a .079 to get me there - this is the actual point to the experiment. Beyond a certain point I think too much wire kills tone - I want to know where strings ACTUALLY start to lose their voice.


Yeah .. currently i prefer and use strings of .080 or smaller so acheiving a well tensioned B0/C1 with that gauge will be fascinating.
Your ultra long scales would be good as tap instruments .. since the right hand doesn't need to reach the bridge when tapping, the bridge could be way off to the right / down near the floor  The long scale would also compensate for scale lost by using a string damper near the nut (fret 2 being the lowest easily tapped fret).


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 16, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> Hey Scott my C# is a SIT 195(my F# is a SIT 165) and as Skip mentioned I have a very light touch. My Surine Sub contra bass is a 35" scale( that was the bass that cichra got to check out) while my Conklin and fretless Adler( the bass that was used on the Low C# Theory recording) Sub contra basses are 34" scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do use the string but I do not have a light touch, almost at all. I get away with just using it in position play stuff. I never really need to go that low. The lowest note I am current using is the D00 of that string. 
Also, nah.. Bag End stuff is a bit colored for my liking. I really dig their abilities... just not the "color" of the sound that they allow for.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 16, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> Hey Scott my C# is a SIT 195(my F# is a SIT 165) and as Skip mentioned I have a very light touch. My Surine Sub contra bass is a 35" scale( that was the bass that cichra got to check out) while my Conklin and fretless Adler( the bass that was used on the Low C# Theory recording) Sub contra basses are 34" scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Also and most importantly... HOW THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN?! It's been some time... Hope that all is well in your neck of the woods. I was just up there not too terribly long ago and I didn't think to try and contact you. Keep on jamming, friend.


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 16, 2012)

Scott Fernandez said:


> Also and most importantly... HOW THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN?! It's been some time... Hope that all is well in your neck of the woods. I was just up there not too terribly long ago and I didn't think to try and contact you. Keep on jamming, friend.




I'm fine and thanks for asking.

Next time you're near me feel free to reach out.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 16, 2012)

vbshredder said:


> Pretty cool - i wonder how close that C# is to the limits of human hearing. That string is ridiculously thick!


You're right you can't hear the fundamental, but you can hear the overtones just fine.


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## ZEBOV (Jul 16, 2012)

......... I have to go to NAMM this year.

EDIT: Is this open to the public? The only information I can find is directed toward manufacturers and affiliates.


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## iron blast (Jul 16, 2012)

Nope not open to public Zebov sorry man


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## DarkRain93 (Jul 16, 2012)

C#0 is too low for me lol, Can you even hear the note? that has to be 16 or 17hz, human ear can only go as low as 20hz lol about Low E0. Shake the room to death if you play  , IDK in practicality I'd tune a Subcontra bass an Octave below Standard Bass. And a whole step higher to Match 8 string guitar.


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## Winspear (Jul 16, 2012)

I always thought it wasn't open to the public but my friend said there is a Public Day and indeed googling does bring that up on the NAMM site. 

Yeah you can't hear the fundamental, even around F# below 5 string bass is getting iffy. But guitars don't put out sinewaves - plenty of harmonics 
Take a listen to Yves Carbonnes album on a good soundsystem and you'll hear the amazing these low notes can create. 
I'd say it's definitely not very useful to go below E in a metal context (my opinion!) but in emptier music where the bass can cut through the mix it sounds fantastic.


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## knuckle_head (Jul 16, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> Hey Scott my C# is a SIT 195(my F# is a SIT 165) and as Skip mentioned I have a very light touch. My Surine Sub contra bass is a 35" scale( that was the bass that cichra got to check out) while my Conklin and fretless Adler( the bass that was used on the Low C# Theory recording) Sub contra basses are 34" scale.
> 
> And Skip I have a couple of Bag End ELF systems for sale if you're interested.


Do you use the same gauges on your Surine? I didn't know this one was longer - cool to know that.

I saw that you have Bag End gear you're letting go of - you tempt me horribly.



Scott Fernandez said:


> . . . Bag End stuff is a bit colored for my liking. I really dig their abilities... just not the "color" of the sound that they allow for.


I get what you're saying - I hear the color of their flavor.  It was the cadillac of my youth and I have a soft spot for it. I have to say, though, that if you can come by enough 21s to keep up with the SPL of your mains, a reference rig with your top and their infra/elf system is pretty awesome. Extreme bottom doesn't suffer a flavor crisis - just a power crisis.


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 16, 2012)

knuckle_head said:


> Do you use the same gauges on your Surine? I didn't know this one was longer - cool to know that.





Yes I use the same gauges on all of my Sub contra basses and the Surine was the first one I had made.



knuckle_head said:


> I saw that you have Bag End gear you're letting go of - you tempt me horribly.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 23, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> Yes I use the same gauges on all of my Sub contra basses and the Surine was the first one I had made.



Question: What about moving that low C#00 to a thicker gauge? My bass's actions are set pretty low and I've got that string raised to the ceiling and it still rattles... I know I'm not very subtle in my play style but I feel like I can do something to fix that.


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 23, 2012)

Scott Fernandez said:


> Question: What about moving that low C#00 to a thicker gauge? My bass's actions are set pretty low and I've got that string raised to the ceiling and it still rattles... I know I'm not very subtle in my play style but I feel like I can do something to fix that.




Scott, personally I'm not interested in making the C# strings that I use heavier. Before I had Dean Markley make the low C# string for me that string did not exist. The gauge that I use was made for my needs and from a vision I had. And based off of that vision and those needs the gauge works for me.


And no I'm not being sarcastic.


Just this past Saturday I was listening to a unreleased solo cd where I played my fretless Adler Sub contra bass and the low end growl is killin.


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## Winspear (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh, the things that would go through most bassists' heads if they walked in on a conversation to hear "195 gauge is too small!" 
We are an odd bunch..


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 23, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> Oh, the things that would go through most bassists' heads if they walked in on a conversation to hear "195 gauge is too small!"
> We are an odd bunch..







I hear people say that the SIT .195 is garbage and that it doesn't produce a proper low end. Maybe not for them but they seem to not realize is that it works for some and not for others.


Really a simply conclusion


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 23, 2012)

Where are the sub contra bass players?


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 23, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> Where are the sub contra bass players?



<=== This guy's with ya =)


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## Jauqo III-X (Jul 24, 2012)

This is a track from my unreleased solo cd called Trioplicity, featuring Bernard Purdie on drums and Kudzai Kasambira on guitar.



Some Fretless Sub contra Bass - TalkBass Forums



I had a problem downloading the track to SS.org.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 24, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> This is a track from my unreleased solo cd called Trioplicty, featuring Bernard Purdie on drums and Kudzai Kasambira on guitar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*excited*
Thanks for sharing. About to respond to your response =)


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 24, 2012)

Jauo III-X said:


> I hear people say that the SIT .195 is garbage and that it doesn't produce a proper low end. Maybe not for them but they seem to not realize is that it works for some and not for others.
> 
> 
> Really a simply conclusion



I have no interested in thickening it up but I am lacking a viable solution a truly viable solution. Seriously, my saddle is raised so high that it falls out if I'm not careful. 

Also, I PREACH the validity of SITs... I love the strings and really have no interest in using anything else (aside from the dang purple tops).


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## ixlramp (Jul 24, 2012)

Hey Scott, if your technique is too heavy for the ultralow tension .195 then i think a larger gauge and more tension is needed ... Circle K Strings would recommend at least a .222, and that is still extra-light tension at 33 pounds. Medium tension would be a .254 at 42 pounds.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 24, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> Hey Scott, if your technique is too heavy for the ultralow tension .195 then i think a larger gauge and more tension is needed ... Circle K Strings would recommend at least a .222, and that is still extra-light tension at 33 pounds. Medium tension would be a .254 at 42 pounds.



That makes me sad all day =( I really want to make it work with what I got =(


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## ixlramp (Jul 25, 2012)

Aww Scott :.(
I may have just realised why your saddle is so high, the string is exposed core, so while the core is at the height of the saddle, the layers of wrap wire hang down a lot lower than that level essentially lowering the action. A taperwound string, having a fatter tapered section would help. Otherwise .. erm .. longer saddle screws or a shim perhaps? Ask your luthier 

EDIT Another thought. I get the impression SIT are very helpful, perhaps they could wind you some custom .195s with taperwound instead of exposed core, this would raise the string action a little.

Another song title for you: 'everything you do, you do it all day'


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 25, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> Aww Scott :.(
> I may have just realised why your saddle is so high, the string is exposed core, so while the core is at the height of the saddle, the layers of wrap wire hang down a lot lower than that level essentially lowering the action. A taperwound string, having a fatter tapered section would help. Otherwise .. erm .. longer saddle screws or a shim perhaps? Ask your luthier
> 
> EDIT Another thought. I get the impression SIT are very helpful, perhaps they could wind you some custom .195s with taperwound instead of exposed core, this would raise the string action a little.
> ...



I am amazed that you were able to figure that out... I see it every day and I didn't even think about that. That is EXACTLY the problem at hand =(


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## iron blast (Jul 25, 2012)

Real world issues gone bass mode.


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 27, 2012)

iron blast said:


> Real world issues gone bass mode.



The way I see it... It could always be worse.. I could play guitar. 
d-_-b


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## Bigfan (Jul 27, 2012)

Scott Fernandez said:


> The way I see it... It could always be worse.. I could play guitar.
> d-_-b



Nah, man. getting a decent guitar tone is so much easier than bass for me, at least with the right gear


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## Scott Fernandez (Jul 27, 2012)

Bigfan said:


> Nah, man. getting a decent guitar tone is so much easier than bass for me, at least with the right gear



Guitar is impossible for me to comprehend. I struggle even to understand it's purpose at times and most of the time I can't even tell the differences between different guitar brands and amps... That makes me, quite possibly, the worst guitar player in the world...


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## Bigfan (Jul 28, 2012)

Scott Fernandez said:


> Guitar is impossible for me to comprehend. I struggle even to understand it's purpose at times and most of the time I can't even tell the differences between different guitar brands and amps... That makes me, quite possibly, the worst guitar player in the world...



Well, see. I'm so much of a gear whore that I'm good at identifying both. Just don't expect me to play anything well


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