# Too much bass in your guitar tone...



## Mattayus (May 26, 2008)

... can really fuck up your mixes 

And there was me spouting in another thread that "you dont have to flatten the crap out of your guitar to make it sound good". Which i still stand by, by the way, but it's got to be much less than you'd have in a live situation.

And i dont mean EQing, i mean a much simpler task.... just turn the bass dial anti-clockwise  It might sound horrible at first, lifeless with no speaker exertion, but leave that up to the bass/drums, your guitar is the thing carrying the tone.

Of course this is all incredibly simple/old news, and i'm just a dumbass.
it's subjective to your style of course. I'm on about metal, predominantly.


----------



## Bound (May 26, 2008)

NO, I WILL NOT TURN IT DOWN!


----------



## Mattayus (May 26, 2008)

dude i've learned you really do have to weather you like it or not, otherwise, when it comes to listening to it back on a normal household stereo it's all murky and rumbley, and quite frankly fucking horrid, your tone disappears into the mud. I'm not talkin about taking all the bass out, but if you usually have it at 3 o'clock, have it at 1 or 12 instead


----------



## Bound (May 26, 2008)

I'm just foolin, I actually turn it almost all the way down if I'm tracking something. Not that I produce anything that anybody can listend to, I still turn it down to about where 1 ought to be.


----------



## thedonutman (May 26, 2008)

I've been messing around with my mixes recently, and I've found they sound a lot better with more bass (as in the instrument) and less bass (as in the frequencies on the guitar tracks). Too much bass on my guitar tracks seems to make it sound too "boomy"


----------



## stuh84 (May 26, 2008)

I dime the mids, turn bass and gain down, and record. Any other way and it just doesn't sound nice at all, plus I always high pass at 200hz as well, let the kick and bass guitar take care of that region, everything still comes out sounding thick and juicy


----------



## Shaman (May 27, 2008)

I don't personally agree 100%. For a good metal rhythm tone, you need to have a good healthy low end, even in the 100hz region. Yes, too much will make it boomy, but not having enough will make the guitar sound weak and in the worst scenario, scratchy.

Professional sound engineers, like Colin Richardson and Neil Kernon, tend to use quite a lot of bass and they get away with it nicely. That's a major part in a big, chunky guitar tone. But of course it all comes down to what you consider to be a lot! If you are one of those bass 10 guys, then yes, it is most likely a good idea to bring the bass down.

We also have to remember that boosting/cutting different frequencies will have an effect on the personality of the distortion also. Too much mids in a mixing situation can be a pain in the ass, because, like I said, it will have an effect on how the distortion sounds. A mild scoop, I mean mild, is usually the best setting when tracking an amp. On my Rectifier I have my bass: 11 mids: 10 treble: 11.(o'clock)

I remember mixing a demo, where the guys used a Peavey 6505 with the mids cranked. The track with the mids cranked sounded horrible, due to the fact that it totally changed the personality of the distortion. It was lacking all the meat, chunk and balls, and was all about this scratchy mid range. To make it work, I had to cut a lot of 800hz and boost the 200-400hz region to neutralize the sound so to speak. But scooping the mids a lot when tracking is not a good idea either!

The focus should be on the healthy(!) mids. I don't mean boost the s**t out of 'em, because that way the guitar will be too middy, but especially on modern metal, the low mids is where the meat and magic lies.



stuh84 said:


> I dime the mids, turn bass and gain down, and record. Any other way and it just doesn't sound nice at all, plus I always high pass at 200hz as well, let the kick and bass guitar take care of that region, everything still comes out sounding thick and juicy



Are you referring to tracking your Invader?

I noticed that the mid knob on channel three was actually a very pleasing one. It didn't boost the "scratchy" frequencies, but it added a lot of djent. A very different mid knob indeed!


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (May 27, 2008)

I kinda dig midsy distortion. But I'll admit it's not for everything though.


----------



## Scali (May 27, 2008)

It depends on what bass control you are referring to?
Some amps have the eq before the distortion (eg Mesa Mark series, most Fenders)... In that case, dialing out the bass will give you a much 'cleaner' bass response, which will make it more punchy.
Other amps have the eq behind the distortion (Marshall and most derived amps), in which case the eq doesn't really affect the character of the distortion, and can't fix a muddy tone.

I tend to use a treble booster on a Marshall amp, which gives more or less the same effect as dialing out the bass on a pre-distortion eq (you actually dial up all other frequencies, so the effect is the same, you just get a tad more gain).
I don't dial out the bass on the post-distortion eq completely... Depending on the cab I use, it's set at about 3-6 (closed cabs have a much stronger bass response than open cabs). I like a bit of bass, for a smooth and fat sound. Then again, I also like mahogany guitars and alnico humbuckers.

One of the biggest problems I find is controlling the 80-200 Hz region... This can give very annoying 'resonant' bass response which can drown out the rest of the music. Post-processing Eq and perhaps some compression is what I try to use to fix that.


----------



## stuh84 (May 27, 2008)

Shaman said:


> Are you referring to tracking your Invader?
> 
> I noticed that the mid knob on channel three was actually a very pleasing one. It didn't boost the "scratchy" frequencies, but it added a lot of djent. A very different mid knob indeed!



My Invader, and my Thunder, and whenever I did anything with the POD too (before I sold that heap of junk), the only time I ever got good recorded sounds was with mids cranked. I'm recording a Fireball and a 5150 this weekend though, so will be playing around with them to get them to sound nice.


----------



## Mattayus (May 27, 2008)

Shaman said:


> On my Rectifier I have my bass: 11 mids: 10 treble: 11.(o'clock)



treble at 11 o'clock? doesn't that sound like you've got a blanket on your amp?!


----------



## Drew (May 27, 2008)

Mattayus said:


> treble at 11 o'clock? doesn't that sound like you've got a blanket on your amp?!



Dude, I run my treble on 0 most of the time, for leads. Hold up a sec while I hunt down the last clip I posted here...


----------



## Mattayus (May 27, 2008)

Oh yeah I remember you saying, wasn't it for a Satch cover? That's so weird, I plain don't get how it can still have so much bite. I have to crank the shit out of my highs to not get the blanket effect


----------



## Drew (May 27, 2008)

Drew said:


> Dude, I run my treble on 0 most of the time, for leads. Hold up a sec while I hunt down the last clip I posted here...



Edit: 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/re...ne-zero-mantra-yes-i-really-am-recording.html

Honestly, sometimes it seems about 90% of what you know about every other amp on the planet doesn't apply to Rectifiers.


----------



## Mattayus (May 27, 2008)

So it seems! That's a badass tone bro, really creamy and vintage


----------



## Drew (May 27, 2008)

Recto on Modern mode, with the gain maybe 5 o'clock and the treble at 0 and presence pretty low too.  Makes no sense, eh?


----------



## Shaman (May 27, 2008)

Yeah, Rectifiers are very unique when it comes to EQ. And of course, tracking is a totally different scenario. What works in a room or even live with a band, might sound like utter crap when tracking guitars.

Of course it depends on the tone you are going for, but the cymbals etc. should fill the upper range in a mix, so you can get away with pretty dark sounding guitars just fine. as long as they are not too dark, so that they lose the upper range djent.


----------



## Drew (May 27, 2008)

Shaman, as I recall, you're an Opeth fan too. 

It always amazes me when I see those guys live. Every once in a while Mikael will play something between songs, just a chord or two, through his rig, and it sounds tiny - sort of thin, rolled back highs, not a hell of a lot of bass, and very little gain at all. I mean, AC/DC sounds heavier than he does alone, practically. 

And then they'll start another song and the bass, drums, and second guitar will come in, and holy fucking shit does it suddenly become a huge guitar sound - massive, articulate, and just brutal. 

It's almost comical.


----------



## Shaman (May 27, 2008)

Drew said:


> Recto on Modern mode, with the gain maybe 5 o'clock and the treble at 0 and presence pretty low too.  Makes no sense, eh?



For a Recto user that makes total sense 

I usually have my presence totally off and treble 11o'clock when using the modern mode. It is such a bright channel, so low presence/treble settings are the way to go. No wonder people often think Recto's are fizzy when they crank the presence like it is a Marshall etc.



Drew said:


> Shaman, as I recall, you're an Opeth fan too.
> 
> It always amazes me when I see those guys live. Every once in a while Mikael will play something between songs, just a chord or two, through his rig, and it sounds tiny - sort of thin, rolled back highs, not a hell of a lot of bass, and very little gain at all. I mean, AC/DC sounds heavier than he does alone, practically.
> 
> ...



You got that right! When you only listen to their guitar tone it's nothing extraordinary, but all of the instruments work amazingly in a mix.


----------



## Drew (May 27, 2008)

I actually like what the presence does to the midrange though, as it comes up - it sort of scoops out a bit of lower mids, it seems. So, for heavier rhythm parts I generally run the presence pretty high and just try to work around it in the mix...


----------



## Matt Crooks (May 27, 2008)

Drew said:


> I actually like what the presence does to the midrange though, as it comes up - it sort of scoops out a bit of lower mids, it seems. So, for heavier rhythm parts I generally run the presence pretty high and just try to work around it in the mix...



The presence is in the upper mids, which can be controlled a lot with your mic placement.


----------



## Drew (May 27, 2008)

Hmm. So it really does control the upper mids, and not the "traditional" presence? I thought it was just my ears or some weird interaction.  

I like that aggressive upper midrange sound you get as the presence gets higher (on a Rectoverb, anyhow, which has less presence range than a Dual)... When you say you can control this with mic placement, do you mean you can bring out the upper mids and the way they "color" the tone in a similar manner, or you can manipulate your mic placement in such a manner that you can get away with higher presence settings? Or both?


----------



## zimbloth (May 27, 2008)

Hm, usually the 'upper mid-range' I usually found was around 1.5khz, then 'treble/attack' around 3khz, and usually the stuff around 5-6khz is what I'd call 'presence'. On many amps, the 'presence' knob is just a +/- @ 5khz. 

Of course, the way Mesa's EQ works is pretty different as you know.


----------



## Matt Crooks (May 27, 2008)

The recto presence is between 1.5-2k.

Drew: I mean you can get very drastically different upper mid range by moving the mic around. So you could run the presence higher, and then use mic placement to tame the upper mids, for example.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (May 28, 2008)

Scali said:


> Some amps have the eq before the distortion (eg Mesa Mark series, most Fenders)... In that case, dialing out the bass will give you a much 'cleaner' bass response, which will make it more punchy.
> Other amps have the eq behind the distortion (Marshall and most derived amps), in which case the eq doesn't really affect the character of the distortion, and can't fix a muddy tone.


 


I'd love to have an amp that has both, a pre-grit, and a post-grit equ.


----------



## Scali (May 28, 2008)

All_¥our_Bass;1057640 said:


> I'd love to have an amp that has both, a pre-grit, and a post-grit equ.


 
Then the Mesa Boogie Mark IV is for you 

Ofcourse with any amp that has pre-distortion eq, you can put an eq pedal or rack effect in the effect loop for post-dist eq, and for post-dist eq amps you can put an eq pedal in front of the guitar input for pre-dist eq...
But a double eq setup is a very powerful tool in 'molding' your distortion tone.


----------



## Drew (May 28, 2008)

But I LIKE those upper mids.  

I'm more worried about the shit above that, the high end fizz/crunch that a Recto can generate if you're not careful. I've been screwing around with recording rhythm tones with the treble high-ish and presence way up (since I like how that reshapes the midrange) and either using a mic placement closer to the edge of the cone, or a low-pass/high-shelf to take the edge off, but I still don't feel like I've got it perfectly...


----------



## Matt Crooks (May 28, 2008)

Drew said:


> But I LIKE those upper mids.



Me too. Some people don't though


----------



## Randy (May 28, 2008)

Drew said:


> But I LIKE those upper mids.





Matt Crooks said:


> Me too. Some people don't thouhg



Well, upper mids don't sound great whilst jamming in your bedroom on a practice amp, but in a recording or live application, they're undeniable and essential to standing out in a mix. Perhaps that's what those people are missing. 

EDIT: Although, I'd imagine some of it is still just a matter of taste.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Jun 2, 2008)

I found that by using an equ pedal that if you cut out all or most of the 30-50hz area and boosting the 60-80hz area you still get that "thick", "big", or "meaty" tone.

BUT

It will be much clearer and drastically less muddy.



Randy said:


> Although, I'd imagine some of it is still just a matter of taste.


 
True. I happen to love the sound cranked the mids on most amps, and when *I* 'scoop' on an amp, I simply return the mids knob to the 12 o-clock position.


----------



## Drew (Jun 4, 2008)

Matt Crooks said:


> Me too. Some people don't though



Clearly, they're fascists, communists, or homosexuals. Or all three.


----------



## swayman (Jun 7, 2008)

Depends on the bass tone a lot of the time. When a bass player comes in with a little 50 watt combo, you're gonna have to do something with overall bass, so turning your bass level for guitars down isn't appropriate.

But if you're bass player has an Ampeg SVT 300 Watts of all valve power & an 8x10 cabinet, turn the bass down on your guitar amp, you don't it cranked all the way up, that's the job of the bass.

I think a lot of guitarists concentrate sooooo much on the sound of their rig that they forget about the combined sound of the band. Which is why a lot of live bands sound like ass...


----------



## Matt Crooks (Jun 7, 2008)

Drew said:


> Clearly, they're fascists, communists, or homosexuals. Or all three.



...but, that's how I'd describe _you_


----------

