# Sub Zero sizes?



## ohio_eric (Nov 17, 2006)

I got this from a story about a model who lived on apples and tomatoes and was down to 88 lbs in spite of being 5'8". 

But anyway some clothing manufacturers are going to offer "sub-zero" sizes. So how skinny is sub-zero??


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## metalfiend666 (Nov 17, 2006)

Waaaay to skinny to be healthy. The fashion industry has long come under fire (rightly so) for trying to encourage women to be as thin as possible, even to the point of being dangerously unhealthy. My girlfriend is a very healthy and sexy UK size 10 to 12, which is around a US 6 to 8 I think, and is really paranoid about me seeing her "fat bits". What she means is she has a figure, which is something the fashion media consider a crime akin to murdering children these days.

I really think it's high time there was some sort of legislation on this. I don't know what the US is like, though I imagine it's a similar situation to the UK, but we're finding cases of women with eating disorders are rocketing due to media pressure to be thin. This isn't helped by the pushing of the "size zero" image that's all the rage with the "high fashion" people right now. Teenage girls are bombarded with these images and it fuck's them up for life, giving them massive body image problems.

I know it's not a new thing at all, my girlfriend is 31 for instance and she has big body issues from the pressures she felt as a teenager. Given the drastic decrease in size of the image being pushed to the teenagers of now I hate to think how bad their body issues will be.


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## ohio_eric (Nov 17, 2006)

In Spain you have to have a BMI of AT LEAST 18 to work. Just so you know a 5'8" woman with a BMI of 18 would weight about 118 lbs, which is thin but not skeleton like. 

I never got the whole super skinny thing. It's unnatural.


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## Leon (Nov 17, 2006)

ohio_eric said:


> I never got the whole super skinny thing. It's unnatural.



humans are strange creatures indeed.


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## ohio_eric (Nov 17, 2006)

Some even play guitars with more than 6 strings.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 17, 2006)

ohio_eric said:


> I never got the whole super skinny thing. It's unnatural.



 Fuck them anorexic hoes, to be blunt. It looks disgusting. I like girls wit' some thickness.  Wow. Nothing like banging a skeleton. 

In all fairness to the model though, I find it really sad and tragic. Does not make me happy at all, poor girls. What a ridiculous concept of self-worth the fucking media foists off on young girls.  Women are supposed to have curves.


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## metalfiend666 (Nov 17, 2006)

Indeed they are, and I like them with curves.


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## Leon (Nov 17, 2006)




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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 17, 2006)

^ I'd tap.


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## ohio_eric (Nov 17, 2006)




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## noodles (Nov 17, 2006)

Moved to Lifestyle, Health, Fitness & Food.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 17, 2006)

noodles said:


> Moved to Lifestyle, Health, Fitness & Food.



Without comment? C'mon Dave, you have an opinion on everything, do it please ya.


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## Drew (Nov 17, 2006)

ohio_eric said:


> But anyway some clothing manufacturers are going to offer "sub-zero" sizes. So how skinny is sub-zero??



Confession time - before getting into finance, I paid rent working at a Banana Republic for a few months.

Evidently, sizing in America has gradualyl shifted for the larger. Part of it is because Americans by and large are fatter than they used to be - blame McDonalds. 

But the other part of it is a totally calculated subversive marketing tactic on the part of clothing manufacturers, I think. It plays off the fact that americans are increasingly self-conscious about their sizes - basically, "Like, OMG, I'm _totally_ a 2 in these pants, I HAVE to buy them!" So, a size 0 isn't really what it used to be. 

The downside of this, is while larger people feel better about themselves for it, some of my smaller friends are caught in a bind in that they're really a little too small for zero's - not that they're anorexic and starved or anything, just that they're not very large people, and fairly slim, and even a 0 is a little looser than would be ideal for them. 

Honestly, I've kind of been expecting this for a while - that the industry would either bite the bullet and recalibrate to smaller sizes, or that they'd have to introduce sub-zero sizes.


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## darren (Nov 17, 2006)

... and here i thought this was going to be a thread about refrigerators.


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## noodles (Nov 17, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Without comment? C'mon Dave, you have an opinion on everything, do it please ya.


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## darren (Nov 17, 2006)

Mmm... curvy...


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## ohio_eric (Nov 17, 2006)

Marilyn Monroe = sexy 

By today's standards though she's be huge. Silly people.


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## Vince (Nov 18, 2006)

ohio_eric said:


> Marilyn Monroe = sexy
> 
> By today's standards though she's be huge. Silly people.



What's funny is that if you watch TV, you'd think every guy in America loves rail-thin waifs.

*Exhibit A:*






But if you watch porn, you'd see that there's a lot of women in that industry with a little more meat on their bones that guys go for.

*Exhibit B:*

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/d/d9/200px-Nikki_Tyler_01011061.jpg
(this is a work safe pic, but it IS a pornstar)

Just an observation.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 18, 2006)

Ironically Vin, I was thinking along the same lines yesterday, before I read your post.

I thought, people put porn stars down as immoral or wrong, and being an actress or a model is respectable. Yet, the porn stars all appear curvy, healthy, and almost nowhere can the anorexic mindset be found. Yet in acting and modelling, it's everywhere.

Great minds think alike, I guess. Or perverted.


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## ohio_eric (Nov 18, 2006)

The big problem is the only image Madison Avenue and Hollywood put out there is off boney little waifs. So women in the media feel the need to comply. Kelly Ripa used to be pretty damn hot then she went and got too damn skinny. Now I'm about ready to start a telethon for her to airlift her some food. There is fine line between thin and underweight.

As Prince once sang, "I like em fat...I like em proud...so work that big ass over here so I can work that dress off baby."


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## Buzz762 (Nov 19, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Ironically Vin, I was thinking along the same lines yesterday, before I read your post.
> 
> I thought, people put porn stars down as immoral or wrong, and being an actress or a model is respectable. Yet, the porn stars all appear curvy, healthy, and almost nowhere can the anorexic mindset be found. Yet in acting and modelling, it's everywhere.
> 
> Great minds think alike, I guess. Or perverted.



I've noticed that. Some of the more successful ones outside of the Vivid realm all seem to be slightly bigger girls. They aren't fat or anything, but you definitely aren't seeing every bone in their body.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 19, 2006)

ohio_eric said:


> As Prince once sang, "I like em fat...I like em proud...so work that big ass over here so I can work that dress off baby."


Black culture appreciates healthy women.  There's a reason why Prince is my hero.


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## zimbloth (Nov 19, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> In all fairness to the model though, I find it really sad and tragic. Does not make me happy at all, poor girls. What a ridiculous concept of self-worth the fucking media foists off on young girls.  Women are supposed to have curves.



Sad and tragic? The MEDIA? I refuse to feel sorry for some self-obsessed twat who refuses to eat a sandwich. There's a billion starving people in the world who would kill for a fucking tuna sandwich. Yet I'm supposed to feel bad because this "model" refused to eat? Sorry, aint happening.

You know what's "sad and tragic"? The People's Republic of Congo. Nigeria, Darfur, East St. Louis, the Baltimore ghettos, Darfur, etc. Not some stupid bitch who refuses to eat.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 19, 2006)

In the great balance, you're totally right, Nick, although I think you're being harsh. However, that's your opinion, and this is mine. 

See, I can imagine a scenario...

A young girl, very pretty, dreams of being a famous model. She finally gets her lucky break, and lo and behold, all the girls around her are tiny.

"Make sure you lose 10 pounds by next week for that shoot!"
"Ooh, girl, you're looking sorta fat."

Etc., etc. Next thing you know, this innocent girl is becoming jaded, and really, really conscious of her weight. Maybe she lost out on some jobs for being too "fat." She starts feeling depressed, nervous, decides maybe she'll skip that next sandwich. Then she's skipping lunch. Then breakfast.

Well, on it goes. I guess I don't have to limit my sorrow at such nonsense to horrible place like Darfur (which I agree about, obviously. It is FAR worse.) But that doesn't mean I think the ridiculous system that warps females' perspective is not worth lamenting. It has an insidious effect on all sorts of women in our society today.


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## Scott (Nov 19, 2006)

I personally like hearing a womans bones crack when im pounding away 

Me, I could pretty much pass as an anorexic woman. I eat like hell, but I just have insanely high metabolism. So if I was doing it with a chick, someones bones are going to crack. So better her than me


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## zimbloth (Nov 19, 2006)

Bob, she's an adult. She's responsible for herself. She should be smart enough to realize starving yourself to death probably isn't a good idea. She can also open her eyes and see the most gorgeous desired women in the world like Jessica Alba have plenty of meat on their bones.

Do I wish people like her wouldnt die? Of course. But its so absurd, I can't feel bad.


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## Sebastian (Nov 20, 2006)

ohio_eric said:


> Some even play guitars with more than 6 strings.



HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 20, 2006)

zimbloth said:


> Bob, she's an adult. She's responsible for herself. She should be smart enough to realize starving yourself to death probably isn't a good idea. She can also open her eyes and see the most gorgeous desired women in the world like Jessica Alba have plenty of meat on their bones.
> 
> Do I wish people like her wouldnt die? Of course. But its so absurd, I can't feel bad.



I realize that, bud. But unfortunately, girls like Jessica don't land runway modelling gigs. The anorexic ones do. See, by your thinking, relegating anorexia to a choice, well, you diminish the severity of the problem I think. Alchoholics should see drinking themselves to death is a bad idea. Meth users should see smoking themselves to death is a bad idea. Gambling addicts should see spending their whole loife savings is a bad idea. Anorexia is a compulsive disorder, very similar to alchoholism, drug abuse, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa

I just personally find it _very_ sad. It's a complete twisting of what makes a woman beautiful, and it's promulgated in the name of beauty. That's fucked up.


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## Leon (Nov 20, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Black culture appreciates healthy women.  There's a reason why Prince is my hero.



i dig Prince, but i don't dig fat chicks . i think the key word in this discussion is "health". any extreme of size isn't healthy.


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## Drew (Nov 20, 2006)

zimbloth said:


> Bob, she's an adult. She's responsible for herself. She should be smart enough to realize starving yourself to death probably isn't a good idea. She can also open her eyes and see the most gorgeous desired women in the world like Jessica Alba have plenty of meat on their bones.
> 
> Do I wish people like her wouldnt die? Of course. But its so absurd, I can't feel bad.



Nick, Simon and Garfunkel once sang "I am a rock, I am an island." They also did a lot of drugs. 

If you think that it's normal to be completely and entirely isolated and free from judgement even in regular day-to-day life (to say nothing of something as superficially driven as modeling and acting), then you're no less delusional than many of these models are. Bob's right, they're put under EXTREME psychologcal stress in their profession, and to say "fuck 'em, there's people starving in this world, and those are the ones who I feel bad for" is to completely miss the point. 

It may be trendy to always point to the "bigger evil" when confronted with a problem, but look at it this way - the people starving to death in the countries you mention are powerless to help their situation. These models starving themselves to death, however, are not - if they weren't under constant psychological pressure to conform, they wouldn;t do these things to themselves. _That's_ what's tragic here - that they're so psychologically fucked up that what they're doing seems like a good idea. It's tragedy of an entirely different order.


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## playstopause (Nov 20, 2006)

> It has an insidious effect on all sorts of women in our society today.





> That's what's tragic here - that they're so psychologically fucked up that what they're doing seems like a good idea.



 So true. Women are _really_ fucked up by this. People who don't see the problem gotta be blind in some way. You can't even pronounce the word "weight" to a girl anymore or she'll look at you with guns in her eyes. Something is really wrong. They think being skinny or losing weight is healthy: thank you god damn ads + fashion magazines and their 9891237498 methods for loosing weight (and look good) in 3 days so you can look like Kate Moss! 

I agree there is larger issues in the world.
But this one is really a problem of _our own_ (modern, need to be like this and buy that / "rich" countries).

We guys need to do some efforts and tell our girls we love 'em just the way they are. No matter what's in the freakin' magazines.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 20, 2006)

playstopause said:


> We guys need to do some efforts and tell our girls we love 'em just the way they are. No matter what's in the freakin' magazines.


Hear, hear. My girl knows I like curves, so she doesn't feel that way at all. She feels sorry for those ultra-skinny girls. Good on ya, Lass!


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## zimbloth (Nov 20, 2006)

Drew said:


> Nick, Simon and Garfunkel once sang "I am a rock, I am an island." They also did a lot of drugs.
> 
> If you think that it's normal to be completely and entirely isolated and free from judgement even in regular day-to-day life (to say nothing of something as superficially driven as modeling and acting), then you're no less delusional than many of these models are. Bob's right, they're put under EXTREME psychologcal stress in their profession, and to say "fuck 'em, there's people starving in this world, and those are the ones who I feel bad for" is to completely miss the point.
> 
> It may be trendy to always point to the "bigger evil" when confronted with a problem, but look at it this way - the people starving to death in the countries you mention are powerless to help their situation. These models starving themselves to death, however, are not - if they weren't under constant psychological pressure to conform, they wouldn;t do these things to themselves. _That's_ what's tragic here - that they're so psychologically fucked up that what they're doing seems like a good idea. It's tragedy of an entirely different order.



It is absolutely revolting how people can just make every excuse in the world for those who are so self-obsessed and petty, that they conduct themselves in ways incompatible with life on Earth. So what if there's "pressure" on them? There's pressure on a lot of people. There's pressure to perform in every profession. That doesn't mean we should all feel bad everytime someone is stupid enough to go the farthest extreme possible so they can achieve their selfish desires. 

Who are _delusional _ are those who want to take away all responsibility from the individual. No one forced that woman to be a model. No one made her sign a contract saying "you have to weigh 60 pounds". Oh no, she saw that most other models were skinny? She couldn't see that everyone else on Earth eats now and then? She didn't have eyes and could see that every attractive woman on Earth isnt a walking skeleton?

NEWSFLASH: She wasnt born with some psychological disorder, it festered from her own self-obsession and idiocy. So once again, why should I give a shit? Why should I make excuses for someone like this? I'm sorry but I'm sick of people blaming the "media" or "the magazines" or everything else but themselves in this country - it's pathetic.


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## Chris (Nov 20, 2006)

^ angry fat man.


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## zimbloth (Nov 20, 2006)

Chris said:


> ^ angry fat man.



What? Awesome


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## playstopause (Nov 20, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Hear, hear. My girl knows I like curves, so she doesn't feel that way at all. She feels sorry for those ultra-skinny girls.



It's just the same for me.



> Good on ya, Lass!



Now this, i don't get (sorry, i'm a frenchy boy... )



> it festered from her own self-obsession and idiocy. So once again, why should I give a shit?



It's surely her own, but what's the source of it? What's behind it? She implanted it herself, in her own mind?


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## zimbloth (Nov 20, 2006)

Yeah man, I'm not denying there's no source behind it. But once again, we all deal with external pressures in life, its our responsibility to have some perspective and not become so completely obsessed. It's not like I don't feel bad for her family and all those who knew her, it's not like I don't wish she was alive. It's just hard for me to sit here and let her off the hook completely, just because she for some reason felt it necessary to starve to death.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 20, 2006)

Nick... dude, chill.  You're entitled to your opinion, and there's a certain validity to it. I disagree personally with the vehemence with which you express it, but dude, that's cool. DEEEEP breaths, man.

However, that ain't the end of the story, IMO. Her failing didn't hurt you. It wasn't immoral. But it cost her her life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa

What you're implying is essentially anyone with a compulsive problem should just "get over it." These decisions aren't entirely logical, y'know?

Any rate. Just my take on it. You feel how you want, I'll do the same.


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## zimbloth (Nov 20, 2006)

Dude I've been chill all along  I just don't think I should have to walk on egg shells around here if I have an opinion.

I'm not implying that Bob. I obviously think if people are that deranged, of course I advocate serious professional help and rehabilitaiton. But for me, I just have a hard time feeling bad for those who die because they're so obsessed with vanity. There are people who refuse to quit smoking because they're afraid theyre going to gain a few pounds. It's just ludicrous to me. The wikipedia article says "It primarily affects young adolescent girls in the Western world". That doesnt suggest to me this is a legit universal disease. More that its cultural. It's not like being born with some kind of mental disease, this is brought on by ones own self-obsession.

I'm sorry if I offended someone whos been personally affected by this, but it's just hard for me to take this ultra seriously. Maybe that makes me an asshole, if so... I guess that's unfortunate for me then.


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## Chris (Nov 20, 2006)

So you stroll through life ignoring every social pressure with no problem at all?

Damn, dude. You should write a book.


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## zimbloth (Nov 20, 2006)

What are you talking about dude? When did I say or suggest that at all? Did you even read what I've been saying? Fine you win, I too will blame the magazines and Kate Moss for this girls death. She in no way is responsible for her own behavior.


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## metalfiend666 (Nov 21, 2006)

I've got to go with the majority Nick, the obsession to be thin is brought on by *massive* pressure from the media, fashion and our culture. These girls who starve to death from anorexia are ill and need help, doctors recognise it's a psychological condition. Would you tell a schizophrenic he needs to snap out of it and stop listening to the voices? It's the same deal, it's still a mental illness. I know people who suffer with it and it's not something they can just snap out of. 

I've seen news reports and read articles on it and it's scary the pressure magazine's that teenage girls read put on them to be thin. At that impressionable age it creates the idea that they have to be thin to be beautiful and successful. How many women do you know who don't wish they were a little thinner? Not many at all I'd bet.


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## zimbloth (Nov 21, 2006)

metalfiend666 said:


> I've got to go with the majority Nick, the obsession to be thin is brought on by *massive* pressure from the media, fashion and our culture. These girls who starve to death from anorexia are ill and need help, doctors recognise it's a psychological condition. Would you tell a schizophrenic he needs to snap out of it and stop listening to the voices? It's the same deal, it's still a mental illness. I know people who suffer with it and it's not something they can just snap out of.
> 
> I've seen news reports and read articles on it and it's scary the pressure magazine's that teenage girls read put on them to be thin. At that impressionable age it creates the idea that they have to be thin to be beautiful and successful. How many women do you know who don't wish they were a little thinner? Not many at all I'd bet.



James, I don't disagree with anything you're saying bro. I said before in the thread that I realize these people need professional help and whatnot. My point is, I think it's dangerous to lay -ALL- the blame on the media and peer pressure. There's such a thing as common sense, logic, responsibility... that should play a part too. We're in agreement that external pressures play a huge part. Where we disagree, is that I don't believe that's enough of a reason to simply "oh okay then, Kate Moss and Glamour magazine are responsible". And that's okay, we can agree to disagree


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## playstopause (Nov 21, 2006)

zimbloth said:


> "oh okay then, Kate Moss and Glamour magazine are responsible".



You might be refering to what i posted sayin' this.
I think just the way you do, but we're writing it in 2 different ways.

The nuance: 
I agree that individuals have to be responsible for their own behavior and that we can't, in general, blame anyone but ourselves for what's happening in our own lifes.

But see, "mental strenght" is a thing that differs a lot from one person to another. People can't all be put in the same basket. Without being inferior, some are more "mentally weak" than others and this is how fashion magazines and models can _really_ influence them ('cause yes, they really do. _And _ Kate Moss too. If you see her like 150 times per year on the cover of fashion magazine, i'm sorry, but it gets in your head either you like it or not. We are _surrounded _by publicities. In fact, we're drowning in them). Those people are not even aware this whole fashion-be on a diet thing is having a subconscious / negative effect on them because the idea is being sold to them as "the right thing to do" and they can't make difference: just because their conscience doesn't have the right judgment / distance to do so. They're weaker on this matter.
That's how pathetic it is.

So yes, that girl was reponsible to herself. But if she's of a weak nature (and that can't be her own fault : it's all about education, family + social integration, etc, etc + 100 more reasons.) all there is to blame are the outside factors.

I mean, if that girl's been raped or beaten when she was 5 (who knows, right?), would you blame her for her lack of efforts or would you blame the indisputable social pressure that caused her to try to fit in and to try to be "a real person"?


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## Jason (Nov 21, 2006)

playstopause said:


> You might be refering to what i posted sayin' this.
> I think just the way you do, but we're writing it in 2 different ways.
> 
> The nuance:
> ...



well said..finally someone said it like i would


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## playstopause (Nov 21, 2006)

.jason. said:


> well said..finally someone said it like i would



Hey


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