# Multiscale + Extended Rage Floyd Roses?



## tabqwerty (Apr 16, 2017)

I know Kahler makes these, but their bridges can't flutter and they look ugly IMO. This Ormsby with 8 strings and a Floyd Rose is my dream guitar (that I can actually afford!):


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 16, 2017)

If you keep the fan small enough and shift the perpendicular fret towards the bridge, you can probably get away with a FR, or any trem really, except you'll start defeating the purpose of both the different scales and sweep of the frets. 

See Strandberg.


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## tabqwerty (Apr 16, 2017)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you keep the fan small enough and shift the perpendicular fret towards the bridge




What?


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## WinterLily (Apr 16, 2017)

T4M tremolo? not sure if it merts your criteria but it can be fanned


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## A-Branger (Apr 16, 2017)

tabqwerty said:


> What?



basically making the bridge the parallel fret, so you can use a regular floyd. Just like those new prototypes Ormsby are doing. But then you are limited to a small fan of 1" difference in scales.

Strandberg do floating bridges for their multiscales but not sure on the why the have the parallel fret at the nut, which makes their scale differences only a 0.5" . If they had shifted their parallel fret to the 9th fret and keep the same angle at their current bridge they could have had a bigger multiscale. 

Problem with a traditional Floyd is that the pivot point is in front of the strings saddles. On a multiscale bridge with the big fan like Ormsby is doing this becomes a problem. Your pivot point cant be at the lower strings, so it has to be at the high strings. This becomes an issue with the lower strings, as the more separation between the string saddle and the pivot point, the wider the range of up/down movements of the string has while using the tremolo. In other words, it would be like your string action would go up and down(even clashing with the fretboard). Plus the square design would get in the way of the bridge pickup

The way the Strandberg tremolo bridge fixes this is by shifting the pivot point to a more in between position between the high and low strings, so their range of movement becomes less. IF you see the pic of one, the ball bearing is pretty much right next to the high string. Way closer to what a traditional knife edge of a Floyd is. Plus Stranberg uses a smaller fan at the bridge and non-angled pickups, these specs help too.

Only solution for a big fan bridge like Ormsby, would be to do something similar to what Strandberg is doing, by using ball bearing pivot points, so these can be located on the outside of the bridge and be positioned in a more central location between the high and low strings(this would now require to have a cavity under the front of the bridge for it to be able to move), unless you put the pivot point right under the highest string. But something traditional like a FLoyd with a knife edge at the front of the bridge would never work at this extreme angle. Unless you go with something like a Bigsby, were the intonation bridge is locked and you wind/un-wind the string lenght behind.


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## tabqwerty (Apr 18, 2017)

A-Branger said:


> basically making the bridge the parallel fret, so you can use a regular floyd. Just like those new prototypes Ormsby are doing. But then you are limited to a small fan of 1" difference in scales.
> 
> Strandberg do floating bridges for their multiscales but not sure on the why the have the parallel fret at the nut, which makes their scale differences only a 0.5" . If they had shifted their parallel fret to the 9th fret and keep the same angle at their current bridge they could have had a bigger multiscale.
> 
> ...




What?


I guess I need visual examples.


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## jemfloral (Apr 18, 2017)

tabqwerty said:


> What?
> 
> I guess I need visual examples.



A-Branger just did a great job explaining why its difficult to get a floyd to work on a guitar like the one you originally posted. Just read through it slowly and figure it out piece by piece. Basically, he says that because the pivot point on a tremolo is a perpendicular line at the front of the bridge, but the saddles sit further and further away from it (from high to low strings), as you move the tremolo up and down the impact on each saddle becomes greater.

Think of a dive-bomb motion on the tremolo. If you have the first string saddle sitting right at the pivot point, then it doesn't move that first saddle too high away from the body of the guitar. However, in the same motion, because the lowest saddle is much further from the pivot "line" it will get lifted away from the guitar body MUCH further. The opposite effect would be had for a pull-up.

If you still don't get it try using a business card as a tremolo baseplate, and put one dot on the corner closest to the pivot side, and one dot on the opposite corner away from the pivot. Now hold the pivot on a table and lift the other edge to simulate a dive-bomb. Notice how much higher the non-pivot side gets? That's your low string action getting insanely high.


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## bostjan (Apr 18, 2017)

The guitar you posted would need a custom machined FR trem in order to work at all. This is nearly impossible to do legally and effectively.

The only other option, as Max said, and everyone else is explaining very well, is that you would have to use a standard FR trem with no fan at the bridge. You could still slant the nut back and have the frets follow.

That option would be less ergonomic than a properly engineered multiscale, unless you took it easy on the span.

Take a look at this example:






The bridge is perpendicular to the strings, but the guitar is still multiscale. You could put a FR trem on this guitar. The problem is that there isn't much of a difference in scale length between the high and low strings as a result.


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## tabqwerty (Apr 18, 2017)

jemfloral said:


> A-Branger just did a great job explaining why its difficult to get a floyd to work on a guitar like the one you originally posted. Just read through it slowly and figure it out piece by piece. Basically, he says that because the pivot point on a tremolo is a perpendicular line at the front of the bridge, but the saddles sit further and further away from it (from high to low strings), as you move the tremolo up and down the impact on each saddle becomes greater.
> 
> Think of a dive-bomb motion on the tremolo. If you have the first string saddle sitting right at the pivot point, then it doesn't move that first saddle too high away from the body of the guitar. However, in the same motion, because the lowest saddle is much further from the pivot "line" it will get lifted away from the guitar body MUCH further. The opposite effect would be had for a pull-up.
> 
> If you still don't get it try using a business card as a tremolo baseplate, and put one dot on the corner closest to the pivot side, and one dot on the opposite corner away from the pivot. Now hold the pivot on a table and lift the other edge to simulate a dive-bomb. Notice how much higher the non-pivot side gets? That's your low string action getting insanely high.



Why does it matter if its action is high during a dive-bomb? It'll revert back to normal right after.


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## A-Branger (Apr 18, 2017)

tabqwerty said:


> Why does it matter if its action is high during a dive-bomb? It'll revert back to normal right after.



maybe the action no so much. But maybe the sensitivity of the pitch. A little pressure while palm mutting wont do much on a regular floyd, but on a low string multiscale with a huge separation to the pivot point it will as it would require less movement to achieve same pitch change

I think?... as also have to take into account the extra scale lenght of the string, so the longer the string the more you have to push it. Like is eassier to get to pitch while bending a short scale guitar vs a long scale one

maybe thats why the multiscale tremolo of Kraler works?


plus resting your hand on the low string bridge to palm mute would put ore pressure on the ssitem if the knife edge is at the high string location, so you would be pulling up the bridge far easier. And also the main problem of the sistem being on the way of the bridge pickup


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## Technology4Musicians (Apr 19, 2017)

Just for saying that not only it is possible, but it works also well.

https://www.facebook.com/GiulioNegriniGuitars/photos/a.278061128913609.72635.173876595998730/1295763543810024/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/GiulioNegriniGuitars/photos/a.278061128913609.72635.173876595998730/1297200503666328/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1173771492683488&set=pcb.1173771776016793&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/1553163132/videos/10211369014691760/


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 19, 2017)

man i really want a marconi...but their online builder breaks me.


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## dpm (Apr 20, 2017)

It's entirely possible to make a fanned trem with the pivot points running at the bridge angle. There's a tiny amount of lateral travel relative to the routed cavity but it according to what I drew up a few years back it shouldn't be problematic. The main problem is finding someone to make a quality baseplate and paying for it


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## Winspear (Apr 22, 2017)

dpm said:


> It's entirely possible to make a fanned trem with the pivot points running at the bridge angle. There's a tiny amount of lateral travel relative to the routed cavity but it according to what I drew up a few years back it shouldn't be problematic. The main problem is finding someone to make a quality baseplate and paying for it



I was thinking this exactly, but can't get it right in my head. Will try modelling it soon. 
I have this T4M fanned tremolo here in my hands disassembled and was considering an experiment having a duplicate baseplate made with the bass knife edge moved back.

I've already attempted to lessen the effects discussed here by having the high E saddle overhanging the base plate, slightly more extremely than shown. 




Is that all it takes? Or do the knife edges need to be at an angle? (I'd imagine not as they are a single point contact on a cylinder, not a hinge). 
Slightly different elevations, I'd assume
Or is it really as simple as moving the bass knife edge back to where that plastic plug is for example.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 22, 2017)

Winspear said:


> I was thinking this exactly, but can't get it right in my head. Will try modelling it soon.
> I have this T4M fanned tremolo here in my hands disassembled and was considering an experiment having a duplicate baseplate made with the bass knife edge moved back.
> 
> I've already attempted to lessen the effects discussed here by having the high E saddle overhanging the base plate, slightly more extremely than shown.
> ...



tom did you have the t4m installed in something before you took it apart? how is it?


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## Winspear (Apr 22, 2017)

Also wanted to say I think the T4M trem is the best option for this at the moment because whilst the low strings might be further away and have a lot of pitch fluctuation, I would rather that than the Kahler which has the treble strings much further forward so would have much less pitch control over them.
I'm not entirely sure of the mechanical design of the Kahler and where the rotational point is, but I feel safe in assuming it's quite a way behind the treble saddles? Maybe somebody can correct that.

No I don't have the T4M installed yet, I am designing a build around it. 
It basically seems exactly like a Floyd to me, studying it. Very impressed with the design and quality.


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## dpm (Apr 22, 2017)

Winspear said:


> I was thinking this exactly, but can't get it right in my head. Will try modelling it soon.
> I have this T4M fanned tremolo here in my hands disassembled and was considering an experiment having a duplicate baseplate made with the bass knife edge moved back.
> 
> I've already attempted to lessen the effects discussed here by having the high E saddle overhanging the base plate, slightly more extremely than shown.
> ...



It has been a while since I looked at it. I reckon simply moving the knife edge back is the way to go because the tension pulls along that plane. The way I thought of going about it is to use Schaller parts including their replaceable knife edge inserts. That way you're not dealing with hardening processes and could cut just the base from solid brass or aluminium. The locking nut then becomes the big machining project


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## A-Branger (Apr 22, 2017)

Winspear said:


> I was thinking this exactly, but can't get it right in my head. Will try modelling it soon.
> I have this T4M fanned tremolo here in my hands disassembled and was considering an experiment having a duplicate baseplate made with the bass knife edge moved back.
> 
> I've already attempted to lessen the effects discussed here by having the high E saddle overhanging the base plate, slightly more extremely than shown.
> ...



that looks pretty cool. For some reason I didnt though of putting actualy knife edges on the sides instead of the ball bearings on the Standberg bridges.

I would say the location is great in there. Take a look at a floyd and you would see the distance between the intonation saddle and the knife edge is pretty similar to the bass side in this bridge. 

The only thing I just though could be an issue for this bridge is about the BE strings (I think), since those seem to be on the same axis for the pivot point, they wont have much movement. Supposing one of them are exactly on the same point as the knife edge rotation point, then the only movement they would experience would be due to the difference in height between them and the pivot point. So although theres a little difference to make some movement, would it be enough to have workable pitch changes for tremolo use?, like could it be enouhg to get 1 tone pitch without extreme tremolo dives/pulls?


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## Lemons (Apr 23, 2017)

I got to spend some time on a guitar equipped with the T4M multiscale headless trem. It seemed like a good quality piece, I cant remember specifically the trem range on the higher strings but I don't think it was a problem, that being said I'm not one for heavy trem action anyway.


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## UnstableinLINY (Apr 29, 2017)

Technology4Musicians said:


> Just for saying that not only it is possible, but it works also well.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/GiulioNegriniGuitars/photos/a.278061128913609.72635.173876595998730/1295763543810024/?type=3&theater
> 
> ...



THis looks sick. Can't wait to see if it takes off. I would sign up for one if it wasnt a gazillion dollars


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## blacai (Apr 29, 2017)

Just check this from ormsby
https://www.facebook.com/ormsbyguit...86640295617/10158447959735618/?type=3&theater


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## Winspear (May 4, 2017)

dpm said:


> It's entirely possible to make a fanned trem with the pivot points running at the bridge angle. There's a tiny amount of lateral travel relative to the routed cavity but it according to what I drew up a few years back it shouldn't be problematic. The main problem is finding someone to make a quality baseplate and paying for it



Just mocked it up in 3d. You're right, super simple. It had less than 1mm lateral travel at quite extreme dive/pulls, so unless the route is super tight for some reason, indeed nothing else is needed than to move the bass post back!
That's exciting.
Give me a year


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## A-Branger (May 5, 2017)

^ thats pretty cool. I though the lateral movement would be too much. Pretty awesome then


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## dpm (May 8, 2017)

Winspear said:


> Just mocked it up in 3d. You're right, super simple. It had less than 1mm lateral travel at quite extreme dive/pulls, so unless the route is super tight for some reason, indeed nothing else is needed than to move the bass post back!
> That's exciting.
> Give me a year



I vaguely recall the lateral travel being something like 0.8mm at an absolute maximum, does that sound roughly right? Obviously depends on the exact angle of the bridge. Man, it was so long ago when I last looked at this


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## Lloksaadvi (May 8, 2017)

You could do what this guy does at 4:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvQN6dbY0U&ab_channel=MetalBladeRecords


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## Kaff (May 10, 2017)

I know that strandberg and some other companies have successfully implemented a multiscale floating trem but a few things still bother me with the whole idea (and some of this is a recap from A-Bangers post) and here are my 2 cents.

The standard practise is to have a vertical pivot axis and move the lower saddles further from it than the higher saddles. Depending on the placement of the whammy bar, each string reacts differently to user input: the lower strings pitch changes more than the higher strings pitch relative to the motion of the whammy bar. Also the string height varies amongst the strings under bends.

These effects are also present on standard scale tremolos due to intonation adjustments, but not on such a drastic scale (pun intended).

You can't change the pivot axis angle as the strings would start to shift vertically on the fretboard under bends.

A solution could be to have an independent pivot axis to each string and somehow make all of them move in sync. Mechanically this would be complex and hard to pull off without messing with sustain and such.

Now I'm no expert on the matter as I've never actually played a floating trem multiscale, just an engineer with a healthy curiosity towards mechanisms.


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## dpm (May 10, 2017)

Kaff said:


> You can't change the pivot axis angle as the strings would start to shift vertically on the fretboard under bends.



You can because that vertical movement (referred to as lateral in posts above) is tiny


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## A-Branger (May 10, 2017)

so basically a multiscale bridge like a floyd with the pivot points in front of the strings on an angle would make the whole system to pivot on an angle. Like instead to pivot back and forth towards the headstock, now it would do towards the top horn for example.

Like you guys say that the lateral movemet the strings experience wont be that much. But the qustion now is. What about the trem block? and the springs in the back?, do the cavity would have to be routed on an angle too? (like you took a standard floyd router template and rotate it 10 degrees or something?) And do the back springs have to be mounted parallel to the bridge movement too? so the back cavity would be on an angle too?


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## dpm (May 11, 2017)

Off the top of my head... I'd personally put the block on an angle and make an angled spring claw, so the block and claw are angled but the springs still pull in the opposite direction to the strings as usual.


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## Kaff (May 11, 2017)

dpm said:


> Off the top of my head... I'd personally put the block on an angle and make an angled spring claw, so the block and claw are angled but the springs still pull in the opposite direction to the strings as usual.


Correct, that way the string pull easier to counterbalance. Same with saddles, they should be aligned with strings.


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## rockskate4x (May 11, 2017)

Lloksaadvi said:


> You could do what this guy does at 4:13
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvQN6dbY0U&ab_channel=MetalBladeRecords



Forgot about this. It still makes me cringe super hard 

Back on topic, T4M is the only other option I know of aside from khaler, and the khaler makes me feel icky  . I shied away from the idea of multiscale trems because I didn't think I could get the bridge pickup close enough to the saddles for ideal tone because of the saddles sitting over the back of the baseplate on the bass side. If they redesigned with pivot points moved farther back as winspear suggests, I'd be all over this.


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## Winspear (May 14, 2017)

rockskate4x said:


> Back on topic, T4M is the only other option I know of aside from khaler, and the khaler makes me feel icky  . I shied away from the idea of multiscale trems because I didn't think I could get the bridge pickup close enough to the saddles for ideal tone because of the saddles sitting over the back of the baseplate on the bass side. If they redesigned with pivot points moved farther back as winspear suggests, I'd be all over this.



Understood, but there is no cause for concern even without the modification. On a typical setup without a huge fan, there is no reason a pickup right up against the baseplate on the bass side would be any further away from the intonation point than any regular hardtail. Say the bass saddle is an inch back from the treble side, a pickup placed just over an inch away is perfectly normal. Just important to fan the pickup as always 
Save​


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## rockskate4x (May 16, 2017)

Winspear said:


> Understood, but there is no cause for concern even without the modification. On a typical setup without a huge fan, there is no reason a pickup right up against the baseplate on the bass side would be any further away from the intonation point than any regular hardtail. Say the bass saddle is an inch back from the treble side, a pickup placed just over an inch away is perfectly normal. Just important to fan the pickup as always
> Save​



I think it would depend on how extreme the fan is. I'm not convinced that it work on an ormsby style fan


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## Chronotone (May 24, 2017)

Use kahler multiscale tremolo


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## prlgmnr (May 24, 2017)

Chronotone said:


> Use kahler multiscale tremolo



Have you used one? How is it? Any effects on tone?

I'm trying to spec out a multiscale 8 at the moment and while doing a trem feels like it's probably more trouble than it's worth, I find something comforting about the option of a trem arm being there.

Having said all that it's suitable pickups for a multiscale 8 that might prove more of a problem, don't seem to be that many out there (I'm going 29.3-25.5" because...well, if you're going to do a thing you may as well do it all the way, or thereabouts)


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## UnstableinLINY (May 28, 2017)

prlgmnr said:


> Have you used one? How is it? Any effects on tone?
> 
> I'm trying to spec out a multiscale 8 at the moment and while doing a trem feels like it's probably more trouble than it's worth, I find something comforting about the option of a trem arm being there.
> 
> Having said all that it's suitable pickups for a multiscale 8 that might prove more of a problem, don't seem to be that many out there (I'm going 29.3-25.5" because...well, if you're going to do a thing you may as well do it all the way, or thereabouts)



I had an agile 92527 9 string with a kahler trem and I hated it. Physically the trem operated as it should but it just never sounded good too me. The long extended saddles caused some issues and even if you push them all together it still could cause buzz and moved around and I locked everything down as much as was possible. The thing was just wonky, uncomfortable, and gave kind of a banjo sound when playing it. Maybe I am just used to fixed bridges or floyds but without going into extreme detail let's just say I wasn't a fan over all and it wasn't worth the trouble. If you HAVE to have a trem get an 8 with a 27" scale and straight frets. I bought a second agile 2528 with a fixed bridge and it plays very well.


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## Chronotone (May 30, 2017)

prlgmnr said:


> Have you used one? How is it? Any effects on tone?
> 
> I'm trying to spec out a multiscale 8 at the moment and while doing a trem feels like it's probably more trouble than it's worth, I find something comforting about the option of a trem arm being there.
> 
> Having said all that it's suitable pickups for a multiscale 8 that might prove more of a problem, don't seem to be that many out there (I'm going 29.3-25.5" because...well, if you're going to do a thing you may as well do it all the way, or thereabouts)



I have kahler tremolo lonescale for 6-str.
I consider that it has certain advantages over floydrose:
- it is simpler to install
- it is simpler to adjust a tension of springs
- the blocking mechanism is built in
- possibility of adjustment of saddles extensively
- thanks to roller saddles, it is long and the provision of strings don't change when using a tremolo
- it is almost impossible to use "incidentally"

Multiscale kahler conceptually doesn't differ from lonescale therefore all these positive properties will remain.
the Tunning holds good
As for a sound - I won't tell anything, all similar views are especially individual, and are sometimes based on very ephemeral definitions.
Everything was pleasant to me if I put a tremolo specifically to myself, then I will choose kahler.


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## Winspear (May 31, 2017)

The guitarist Simon from Beyond Creation put me off of the multiscale Kahler. I was quite interested in it.
I've only touched a normal Kahler for minutes, I liked it enough.
I've seen a lot of hate online but I reserve judgement until I can check out one in person. I am willing to believe that the tone of them is fine and that performance is fine when properly set up.
_However _, Simon is a big fan of Kahler too. He loves the normal Kahler. I did not press him for details at the time, but he told me to avoid the multiscale Kahler at all costs. I remember one of the first builds with one, a Sherman 8 string years ago, also had issues.
_
"Hey Tom, first of all I need to say that kahler do amazing standard tremolo. They are really stable and stay in tuned but I would not recommend to get the fan fret at all. I got many problems with it that kinda got me clusterfuck....so don't. Maybe they resolved the problems with years but fanned with their kinda system is tricky."_

I'd love to know what these issues are exactly, but I'm going to guess it comes partly from the fact that the treble saddle is way out infront of the pivot point.
Much like has been discussed above regarding the bass saddle being further back from the pivot point on multiscale trems, resulting in very extreme alteration in pitch of the bass strings, I'd imagine the Kahler has the reverse effect. Bass strings are in line with the pivot point so behave as normal, but treble strings way out in front resulting in a lack of control.
This is just my speculating. When I have the opportunity I will be trying both normal and fanned Kahlers myself.

Making good progress on the T4M fanned headless design and buying parts for it. Hopefully see it done before the year is up. I'll be building a second body to test a baseplate with the offset bass knife edge too, I'll have that machined up to see if it's worth the performance change.


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