# Will ESP and ESP/LTD guitars get SS frets next year???



## Fierce_Swe (Apr 23, 2019)

What do you think? SS fret is the new "in thing" (is that the right word???  )
I'm saving money for a six string guitar with fixed bridge to be my main recording axe and I noticed that I wear down frets somewhat fast. I have a bunch of Ibanez guitars that I really like and I have been watching the 5121 a bit.
But want an ESP (E-II or LTD 1000-series) but I want SS frets because I have to refret some others the coming years so a guitar that woluld have them from start would be nice.

So do you think ESP will add som SS equiped models next year? ( I know some of their US models have but the are very expenisve and hard to get in the EU)


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## cwhitey2 (Apr 23, 2019)

No.


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## angl2k (Apr 23, 2019)

Nope, not everyone likes ss frets and it will bump up production cost too.

If you have guitars that need a refret soon why not just refret those with ss frets?


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

ESP has definitely fallen behind the curve on adding SS frets. I personally won't buy a guitar anymore without SS. The way they feel when playing and the durability is such an improvement. It's sad to see ESP, Ibanez and PRS selling $1-$2k+ guitars that still have nickel frets. Kind of a joke considering Schecter and Kiesel offer SS on guitars right at or under the $1k mark.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2019)

I wouldn’t say they’re falling behind at all. They have SS, just at a price point that people don’t want to spring for. 

As said above, SS frets aren’t necessarily an “upgrade”, there is a definite preference. Not everyone wants the super slick feel, and some feel that the sound is a bit tinny. I personally don’t care one way or the other, but nickel frets aren’t inherently inferior.


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

Spicypickles said:


> I wouldn’t say they’re falling behind at all. They have SS, just at a price point that people don’t want to spring for.
> 
> As said above, SS frets aren’t necessarily an “upgrade”, there is a definite preference. Not everyone wants the super slick feel, and some feel that the sound is a bit tinny. I personally don’t care one way or the other, but nickel frets aren’t inherently inferior.



There will always be a population that sticks with what they know and what they're used to. That being said, look at Kiesel Guitars. SS frets come STANDARD on all of their guitars. They bet their business on the notion of SS being superior and that user adoption won't be an issue.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2019)

And yet SS frets are in probably .01 percent of guitars being made.

I’m sure ESP are selling guitars just fine without going through the expense of adding SS frets to everything. I’d even bet that if the small amount of customers that “absolutely need” SS frets came over to ESP, it wouldn’t be worth the effort involved for them to bump up all lines to SS. 

Kiesel are pushing the super modern guitar angle, and part of that is set around specific specs, including SS frets.


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

Spicypickles said:


> And yet SS frets are in probably .01 percent of guitars being made.
> 
> I’m sure ESP are selling guitars just fine without going through the expense of adding SS frets to everything. I’d even bet that if the small amount of customers that “absolutely need” SS frets came over to ESP, it wouldn’t be worth the effort involved for them to bump up all lines to SS.
> 
> Kiesel are pushing the super modern guitar angle, and part of that is set around specific specs, including SS frets.



Hey, ESP doesn't need me. That being said, SS is continuing to become more of an expectation from players and I would assume more and more people will be asking for/demanding them.


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## trem licking (Apr 23, 2019)

Yup. More ss frets. Not that big of an upgrade cost and no refrets ever is amazing. Climb aboard, ESP


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## efiltsohg (Apr 23, 2019)

icipher said:


> There will always be a population that sticks with what they know and what they're used to. That being said, look at Kiesel Guitars. SS frets come STANDARD on all of their guitars. They bet their business on the notion of SS being superior and that user adoption won't be an issue.



yeah and how much business does Kiesel do compared to ESP?


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Apr 23, 2019)

I would hope so. At this point it’s a requirement for me. I’ve held off on buying some really nice guitars from them because I cant afford going US Custom shop to get stainless. Let’s keep our eyes crossed.


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> yeah and how much business does Kiesel do compared to ESP?



Wow man, very fair comparison there. Definitely apples to apples.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2019)

I’m not saying they aren’t awesome, just answering OP’s question. I don’t think ESP will make a big push for them, because they don’t need to.


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## bnzboy (Apr 23, 2019)

As much as I love SS fretted guitars, it would be sad to see the production lineups price go up because of SS frets. I would personally prefer to leave that option to CS models or another brand (ie. Suhr, Anderson).


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

bnzboy said:


> As much as I love SS fretted guitars, it would be sad to see the production lineups price go up because of SS frets. I would personally prefer to leave that option to CS models or another brand (ie. Suhr, Anderson).



It's like $30.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2019)

I doubt that. They’ll mark it as a “premium upgrade” and tack on an extra hundo.


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

Spicypickles said:


> I doubt that. They’ll mark it as a “premium upgrade” and tack on an extra hundo.



That's a good point. That kind of upcharge would be annoying.


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## Spicypickles (Apr 23, 2019)

That’s kinda what the premiums are, or even the prestige uppercuts. They have a different set of pups in, SS frets but cost way over what the next guitar with similar specs is.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 23, 2019)

icipher said:


> Hey, ESP doesn't need me. That being said, SS is continuing to become more of an expectation from players and I would assume more and more people will be asking for/demanding them.



Who really expect SS frets besides the bubble of this forum? Even on Schecter fanpages i've seen, the SS frets aren't much of an attention grabber as the finishes and pickups and whatnot. Besides some other super-small Facebook pages in a similar demographic as this place, this is literally the only place I've seen people go "SS or bust".


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## icipher (Apr 23, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Who really expect SS frets besides the bubble of this forum? Even on Schecter fanpages i've seen, the SS frets aren't much of an attention grabber as the finishes and pickups and whatnot. Besides some other super-small Facebook pages in a similar demographic as this place, this is literally the only place I've seen people go "SS or bust".



I know we're a minority, but we exist and we're growing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

icipher said:


> Kind of a joke considering Schecter and Kiesel offer SS on guitars right at or under the $1k mark.



Not really a fair comparison. 

Schecter isn't exactly knocking it out of the park, as the guy who's on his fourth KM due to quality issues. Not that the non-MIJ Ibanez with stainless frets are any better really. 

As for Kiesel, they sell direct, so there is no distributor or retailer mark-up. Having worked the wholesale side, you're paying an additional 25% to 40% to support the additional tiers in the supply chain. Remember when Carvin/Kiesel went through dealers internationally? Even with a favorable Euro the guitars were nearly twice the price.


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## Demiurge (Apr 23, 2019)

Also for Kiesel, with their pricing increases, the cost has essentially been baked-in.


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## Fierce_Swe (Apr 23, 2019)

Well, how much differs durability between regular frets of decent quality?
I wouldn´t mind pay some extra money for SS frets.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

Fierce_Swe said:


> Well, how much differs durability between regular frets of decent quality?
> I wouldn´t mind pay some extra money for SS frets.



Stainless steel are significantly harder than nickel. 

That said, it really depends on the player (how hard you press, how much you play, what you play) and strings used (nickel vs stainless steel) as far as longevity of nickel frets.


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## Harry (Apr 24, 2019)

Fierce_Swe said:


> Well, how much differs durability between regular frets of decent quality?
> I wouldn´t mind pay some extra money for SS frets.



They last A LOT longer. So does EVO fretwire
Contrary to what some optimists believe, SS does actually wear but it takes so long to do so that it's barely an issue for most.


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## Harry (Apr 24, 2019)

Maybe I'm weird but I prefer to get nickel frets, wear them out a bit and then get to actually choose the SS wire size I want later.
The fretwire that comes on just about most SS equipped guitars is shorter in height than what I like, so it would feel like a waste having to immediately pull out the SS wire compared to wearing out some nickel first

I like Jescar 58118 sized wire, which I'm pretty certain is NOT what comes on the majority of SS equipped production guitars.
There's also the piece of mind knowing if I take it to the luthier/builder I go too, it will be done 100% right because he can take the time to make it so, whereas on production guitars there will be the occasional hit and miss on fretwork quality.

On the flip side, I understand that most probably aren't as picky about fret height and what not


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## setsuna7 (Apr 24, 2019)

I think ESP will look to their top tier endorsers to even remotely giving SS updates to their existing lines; until Papa Het, KH or Stef want them for their respective guitars/sigs. Just look at Stef's decision for that Purple SC607, if @zimbloth didn't order it, then ESP accidentally sent it to Stef, we would only get the boring ass SC607 in gloss black(like, forever). So hopefully someone will (mistakenly, again) send a guitar with SS frets to Stef and hopes he likes it that much, that it'll be put n the next spec sheet, and then it'll trickle down to production models for us mere mortals. or maybe the guitar that got sent to Stef does comes with SS, and Stef didn't like it anyway....

my two cents anyway.


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## Fierce_Swe (Apr 24, 2019)

Was I wonder was how much differs durability between nickel frets. For example, does the nickel frets of an E-II last longer than nickel frets on a I banez Prestige? Same player, same amount of playing time, same pressure etc.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2019)

Fierce_Swe said:


> Was I wonder was how much differs durability between nickel frets. For example, does the nickel frets of an E-II last longer than nickel frets on a I banez Prestige? Same player, same amount of playing time, same pressure etc.



It tends to vary considerably, even between guitars from the same brands. 

Depends on who the particular supplier is and how consistent their own production is.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 24, 2019)

Stainless Steel frets are not that much more expensive, that's a fact. But I'm also reading that people here aren't willing to eat an upcharge of $100 to get them? If the fret material is such a big deal to you then pay up when it's a reasonable option like a $100 charge, the shit eats through tools which cost money and take longer to work on and crown.

Also I can't emphasize enough how small this corner of the market is in the guitar pie, but the only reason we "influence" releases is because certain ideas get traction on larger platforms like Facebook and Instagram so some things trickle down to the yearly releases that might seem like it was caused by us. But trust me, we did absolutely nothing 

Guys, if you have a guitar with nickel frets, you shouldn't be wearing through them at any unreasonable rate. I've told this to countless people before, restring your guitar when they start to slightly rust and clean your strings with a rag everytime you finish playing. Your frets are wearing down because you're more than likely bending/fretting a rusting string constantly on your frets. If you restring every month or two you'll always have nice strings to work with and you won't need a level on your frets at least until 3 - 4 years down the drain.


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## feraledge (Apr 24, 2019)

I’ve done fret level and crown on 20 year old guitars with original frets in less than a couple hours. It’s just not really an issue for me. The idea that nickel frets are such a hinge point remains baffling. Especially considering that the guitar ownership turnaround with this particular crowd is exceptionally high.


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## StrmRidr (Apr 24, 2019)

All the guys on here crying for SS frets are the same guys that will flip the guitar 5 months after having it. My first guitar that I bought 16 years ago and played for thousands of hours isn't even close to a refret.


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## protest (Apr 24, 2019)

StrmRidr said:


> My first guitar that I bought 16 years ago and played for thousands of hours isn't even close to a refret.



Same.

I have multiple guitars with stainless fret and multiple without. I don't notice a difference.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 24, 2019)

I noticed clear fret wear on my Schecter but not near as much on my Ibbys since they have a stronger material. The main pro for me is being able to pick up any of my guitars and they feel the same as day 1, no oxidation or roughness and zero wear. I just love that they never need any maintenance. I've owned guitars that the frets were constantly becoming rough and scratchy even with regular polishing. 

I'm not in favour of SS on guitars that won't get the attention they need. If they aren't polished properly they will wear your strings and be costly to get levelled by a standard guitar tech.


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## Ikke (Apr 24, 2019)

The “SS Frets or Bust” mentality doesn’t make any sense to me. 

If world-touring superstars like James Hetfield, Kirk Hammett, and Stephen Carpenter don’t need them, why does the average, non-superstar, non-world-touring, forum dweller, who will probably sell the guitar long before it’s even close to its expiration date, need SS frets? 

I’m sure y’all will be okke without them.


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## stevexc (Apr 24, 2019)

Ikke said:


> The “SS Frets or Bust” mentality doesn’t make any sense to me.
> 
> If world-touring superstars like James Hetfield, Kirk Hammett, and Stephen Carpenter don’t need them, why does the average, non-superstar, non-world-touring, forum dweller, who will probably sell the guitar long before it’s even close to its expiration date, need SS frets?
> 
> I’m sure y’all will be okke without them.



To play devil's advocate: James Hetfield doesn't need to save up a couple hundred bucks and wait a few weeks to get his frets recrowned at the local GC if/when they get worn. The extra longevity for him is a non-issue.

That said, SS seems like an unnecessary luxury.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 24, 2019)

Also James Hetfield and Kirk Hammett get new guitars ever 2 hours.


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## Ikke (Apr 24, 2019)

stevexc said:


> To play devil's advocate: James Hetfield doesn't need to save up a couple hundred bucks and wait a few weeks to get his frets recrowned at the local GC if/when they get worn. The extra longevity for him is a non-issue.
> 
> That said, SS seems like an unnecessary luxury.



I get your point, but it still seems silly. I highly doubt anyone here is taking their brand new guitars to the limit of needing SS frets.

If you just want SS frets cause it’s the hot new thing, then just say that. But, if people basing whether or not to buy a low end guitar on the SS fret criteria. Acting as if this is an actual need seems disingenuous. 

A high end guitar makes more sense because it’s more likely you’d be keeping it.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 24, 2019)

Also I'm a bit apprehensive about getting SS frets on a budget guitar because if the stock fret job sucks, then I get the feeling a fret leveling wouldn't be as easy as it would be with nickel frets. 

It's one of the things that made me leery about those $400 SS-loaded guitars Agile released last year.


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## Soya (Apr 24, 2019)

The job is similar, just takes longer. Only difference for me was getting a diamond crown file to make it easier. Sandpaper and polishing rubbers etc work just the same.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 24, 2019)

Ikke said:


> If world-touring superstars like James Hetfield, Kirk Hammett, and Stephen Carpenter don’t need them, why does the average, non-superstar, non-world-touring, forum dweller, who will probably sell the guitar long before it’s even close to its expiration date, need SS frets?



Because the average guy doesn't have a guitar tech and a new guitar every time they wear out a set of strings.

The main pros of SS for me are strings last longer, they always stay smooth and don't need any maintenance after hundreds of hours of playtime. For the average player they make a lot more sense. You can put your guitar away for months and the frets are going to feel the same as when you put it away.


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## trem licking (Apr 24, 2019)

it's really simple... because longer lasting frets are better. why wouldn't anyone want that? at least make some models that feature it for people who want it, like ibanez is doing. although i'll buy a guitar with regular nickel frets, as i don't chew through them very quickly (my older guitars do have divots though, as i buy and never sell)... i will buy the hell out of a guitar with SS frets as that's one more thing I'll never have to worry about. maintenance free is for me.


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## possumkiller (Apr 25, 2019)

Yep ESP is a joke. I bet they will go the way of BC Rich before long. All because they're too cheap to put stainless frets on an M-17.


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## laxu (Apr 25, 2019)

Even nickel fretwire is not all the same. The Jescar fretwire on my Kiesel has lasted far better than anything I've had in cheaper Asian made instruments. I feel that on the cheaper stuff they use softer metal nowadays.


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## Musiscience (Apr 25, 2019)

Just as Lorcan said, if you play a lot and/or tour but don’t want to take your guitar to a tech often, they are amazing.

Personally, I don’t care that much about finish and aesthetics as long as the guitar is stable, reliable, plays well and sounds decent. So anything that improve one of these aspects is worth it to me.


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## Ikke (Apr 25, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Because the average guy doesn't have a guitar tech and a new guitar every time they wear out a set of strings.
> 
> The main pros of SS for me are strings last longer, they always stay smooth and don't need any maintenance after hundreds of hours of playtime. For the average player they make a lot more sense. You can put your guitar away for months and the frets are going to feel the same as when you put it away.





trem licking said:


> it's really simple... because longer lasting frets are better. why wouldn't anyone want that? at least make some models that feature it for people who want it, like ibanez is doing. although i'll buy a guitar with regular nickel frets, as i don't chew through them very quickly (my older guitars do have divots though, as i buy and never sell)... i will buy the hell out of a guitar with SS frets as that's one more thing I'll never have to worry about. maintenance free is for me.





Musiscience said:


> Just as Lorcan said, if you play a lot and/or tour but don’t want to take your guitar to a tech often, they are amazing.



Don't get me wrong, I get it. I knew that this defense was coming (i.e. I don't have 100 guitars, eternal frets are better, going to a tech is expensive, etc.). 

I'm not saying that SS fret aren't great. I just got a Horizon Custom with them. And to be clear, I got them for no specific reason; just because I could. 

However, don't take the post out of context, my comment was directed at a very specific mentality: "SS frets or no buy". I was very (I thought) specific with my language. My point was that none of us need SS frets. And these above quotes confirm my previous points: you are not taking the guitar to the limit of needing SS frets, you'll buy a guitar without SS frets, and/or you're not even playing the guitar.

To be clear, I said this: 
*The “SS Frets or Bust” mentality doesn’t make any sense to me.* 
If world-touring superstars like James Hetfield, Kirk Hammett, and Stephen Carpenter don’t *need* them, why does the average, non-superstar, non-world-touring, forum dweller, who will probably sell the guitar long before it’s even close to its expiration date, *need* SS frets? 

And this:
*If you just want SS frets cause it’s the hot new thing, then just say that.* But, if people basing whether or not to buy a low end guitar on the SS fret criteria. *Acting as if this is an actual need seems disingenuous.*

*TLDR: I think we agree.*


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## 777timesgod (Apr 27, 2019)

possumkiller said:


> Yep ESP is a joke. I bet they will go the way of BC Rich before long. All because they're too cheap to put stainless frets on an M-17.



Rich struggled for years and had a bad name until their downfall. ESP is considered this era's Gibson standard despite their many flaws.



laxu said:


> Even nickel fretwire is not all the same. The Jescar fretwire on my Kiesel has lasted far better than anything I've had in cheaper Asian made instruments. I feel that on the cheaper stuff they use softer metal nowadays.



+1, just like with woods, metals vary in quality based on its origin/supplier/etc. Only natural that with most gear being made in Asia, the goal is to drop the cost as close to 0 as possible.


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## Andromalia (Apr 27, 2019)

> *The “SS Frets or Bust” mentality doesn’t make any sense to me.*



Also, remember that, for people who have a lot of guitars, no new feature means they're already covered. I'm pondering getting a Solar because of SS frets and Evertune. I'd have no interest in buying one with regular frets and no evertune, I already have a ton of that. Whether I actually need them or not is irrelevant. I have always purchased guitars with features I don't already have, which has the benefit of now having a stable able to do mostly everything and the downside of having to do axefx patches per-guitar as they're all different. (Less noticeable in the III than it was in the II)


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## Ikke (Apr 27, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> Also, remember that, for people who have a lot of guitars, no new feature means they're already covered. I'm pondering getting a Solar because of SS frets and Evertune. I'd have no interest in buying one with regular frets and no evertune, I already have a ton of that. Whether I actually need them or not is irrelevant. I have always purchased guitars with features I don't already have, which has the benefit of now having a stable able to do mostly everything and the downside of having to do axefx patches per-guitar as they're all different. (Less noticeable in the III than it was in the II)



Again, we’re not in disagreement. It’s just something you would like to experience. As I said, it’s the same reason my Horizon Custom has SS frets.


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