# The A4 and beyond thread



## vansinn

I feel we loose too much valuable info on discussions, experiences and experiments with tuning to A4, and have therefore made this threads.

I suggest a Moderator stickies this. Do move it to the Luthierie section, if deemed more suited 

I'm hoping this will enable all, and very importantly, some cool future-seing _manufaturers_ to more easily refer what we know and need.

As first thing, I'm adding links to a few previous threads, containing interesting info as already discussed.
I'll poke my saved threads for more and add those a Bit later.


*Previous threads, as reference material:*

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...plus-006-high-up-30-scale-agile-intrepid.html
Besides A4+ info, also contains many general discussons about tuning to A4.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...ing-up-daddario-007-008-0085-experiences.html
Has info on practical experiments tuning high.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/luthiery-modifications-customizations/142209-ways-multiscale-2.html
Besides discussing future directions for multiscales, post #38 and on a few posts, has info on interesting alloys for hight-tuned strings.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...51-strings-gauges-inharmonicity-question.html
This is special to how strings do or do not intonate correctly with gauges, but likewise has interesting reads on related technology.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...ing-technology-finally-catching-up-ideas.html
Also has info on tuning high.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/68130-adding-high-instead-low-f-sharp.html
Seems someone got lucky tuning even beyond b5!


*Prerequisites for high tunings:*
Do not attempt to tune high without observing these basic prerequisites.
Posting getting a whatever string up to A4 on non-specified hardware, lasting two days, wil not add any usefull info at all.
I do understand the below may seem like asking a lot, but if we are to successfully pressurize manufacturers to deliver out-of-the-box-no-big-deal A4 strings, detailed info will be needed.

When tuning up, please observe the prerequisites stated below, and tell us:
. which instrument
. which bridge
. which type of nut
. which tuners/stringlocks
. which string brand model
. both the scale and, very importantly, the total string length from ball to early wraps on tuner peg
. which special treatments you may have done to instrument and/or string - like how on earth you handled the through-body problem
. which procedures was taken, i.e. how the string was mounted, tuned up fast or slowly with how long pauses per semitone et al..
. how long the string lasted - and where it broke, including you own assessment on why you think it broke just there..
. how nicely the string was treated, or how severe it was abused, like bendiing 1½ stop, whammified et al..

These are some basic prerequisites I've partly poked from various discussions, partly from own experiments:
. make sure all frets are neatly dressed and polished
. make sure bridge saddes are inspected with a magnifier, and trimmed/polished to perfection
. same for the nut
. make sure there are no sharp edges on the tuner peg slot/hole

If you have successfully tuned high, lasting what feels like a nice time, this will likely warrent a nifty discussion, so please make a cool separate thread, so we can include this as yet another neat reference up in the *Previous threads..* section


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## Durero

Great idea vansinn 

All of those threads are very valuable to me and I intend to design for high A tuning on my upcoming builds.


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## anne

Awesome thread idea. About time!


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## vansinn

Here's an example of how not to, and to more informingly, post results.

Not so usefull:
I tuned an old 25" Dan Armstrong up to A4, using an off the shelf Rotosound 008 (what my shop had).
It lasted a week. I came home from work, and it had snapped. I managed to bend it ½-1 seminote.

More usefull:
I tuned an old 25" Dan Armstrong up to A4, using an off the shelf Rotosound 008 (what my shop had).
It lasted a week. I came home from work, and it had snapped. I managed to bend it ½-1 seminote.

As said, it's a 25" scale instrument. Back in my young'n'dum days, I stupidly had it modded with a Mighty Mite ToM-like bridge with brass saddles, with grooves filed decently nice, and a ditto classic tailpiece.
Tuners are classic bulky Shallers. Nut is bone.
Frets are a fairly small, of very hard allow (seemingly containing copper). They've lasted ages and are still neat not requiring a polish job.

Distance from ball end to saddle on the high string is 52mm (just over two inches).
Distance from nut to tuner on high string is about 58mm, counting in the early wrap around the tuner peg.
This means a total wire length of close to 30".

The string snapped seemingly at a ramdom spot. I pulled the broken string with a tool to see if it had broken right over a fret, but this wasn't so..

Had the tuner been placed quite close to the nut, and likewise the tailpiece placed closer to the bridge (which we normally don't do), the total string/wire length could've been reduced to maybe 27" or so..
I have the feeling that this might have allowed less total tension over the full string/wire length, and as such it might have fared decently better. Speculations, of course..

Also, while I have no objections towards the Rotosound used, it wasn't really shiny looking. I have the feeling that a string made from a better type of steel might likewise have fared better.
Who knows how long it would've lasted... I'll give it a try with the La Bella HRS strings Mtech suggested in another thread


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## Dayn

I did a test at 27" a while back. Details are in that thread. RG2228 with a fixed Edge III-8, so no ball end in a clamp over an extremely smooth saddle over an extremely smooth nut. It wrapped itself around the tuner as I tuned up, can't remember how many wraps. First D'Addario 0.007 snapped, then the second one tuned up fine to A. Didn't dare bend past a quarter-tone. Played it constantly for at least two hours, then I was stupid and forgot to undo the locking nut while I tuned it up...

It snapped at the tuner, of course. Still, not a bad result for roughly $1.20~ for stock strings. The hardware was pretty much perfect with no weak points _except_ the tuner, so apart from the lack of bendability, I imagine a straight-through Steinberger tuner would have left no weak points except the integrity of the string itself. Anyway, those are my results for future reference about a cheap test. I then used a D'Addario 0.008 for G and it was fine for a half-step bend for around two weeks until I got bored and tuned it down.


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## Durero

vansinn said:


> Had the tuner been placed quite close to the nut, and likewise the tailpiece placed closer to the bridge (which we normally don't do), the total string/wire length could've been reduced to maybe 27" or so..
> I have the feeling that this might have allowed less total tension over the full string/wire length, and as such it might have fared decently better. Speculations, of course..



The tension on any string is determined by the scale length only, additional length past the nut or bridge saddles should have no effect on the tension needed to reach any given pitch.


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## vansinn

^ hmnn.. I believe it was agreed in one of the referred threads that the total wire length does play in when it comes to string breaking. For reaching pitch it's the scale only, of course.
I may likely be in error; will check the treads tonite.
It's important the opening post doesn't state incorrect facts.


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## Fishnuggets

I'm happy to see this thread and will be checking it often.

Having a 9 string 30" scale banjo, it's not easy to find strings for my guitar, much less a 30" scale .007 that I can use as an A4.

I recieved an email just today from O4P saying that indeed they have discontinued their 30" A4. I was hoping to try a EBEADGBEA tuning.

What are other options for someone (to lazy to search on his own) to git a A4 at 30"?

Thanks in advance.


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## steve1

I came here expecting something to do with sizes of sheets of paper 

useful info


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## Durero

Fishnuggets said:


> What are other options for someone (to lazy to search on his own) to git a A4 at 30"?


There are none, at least as far as the collective knowledge-base here has ever posted about.


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## rekab

. Instrument: Ibanez AX7221
. Bridge: Factory hipshot style
. Nut: Factory Ibanez
. Tuners: Factory Ibanez
. Strings: D'addario .008 plain steel
. Scale: 24.75"
. Special Treatments: Frets polished, saddles are all smooth, no real "special" treatments here
. Procedure: Slap it on and tune it up. Don't pussyfoot around with it, shit'll be fine
. String Life: To be determined.. I have had this on for close to 5 weeks and even taken it off to repaint headstock and reinstalled with no issues
. String Treatment: It's a fixed bridge so I have no idea if it will hold up to a trem. I bend regularly but only 1/2 step and maybe a bit beyond. No abuse other than attempting super hard/fast picking to see if it'll break (it hasn't)

I have 2 more .008 strings to test as they break so I can find true life of them but so far this scale seems perfect for high A. I know many people want to know about longer scales, but I believe this is a good starting point for you guys to see an easy way to get to A and what works for sure. If you have a 24.75" scale, try an 8 from d'addario, make sure your frets/saddles are clean, and you'll be high note jammin without the string breaking headache.


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## Hollowway

Nothing to add about A4 yet (other than my 10 string, which I will comment on when it's back from a pickup swap). But I do want to say I'm FULLY in support of this forum, and I would LOVE to see further research/development in this area. And if there's anywhere in the world for this sort of thing to develop, I can't think of a more likely epicenter than this forum.


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## BR10N

+1- Thanks for making this thread. I definitely want to try this sometime in the near future with my 10.


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## Fishnuggets

Durero said:


> There are none, at least as far as the collective knowledge-base here has ever posted about.




I received an email from juststrings answering my question of overall length of their .007 string. They claim it's 42" in lenght. At $.49 it's seems worth buying a few to experiment with. I'll hook that up tomorrow.

I'm hoping to get a EBEADGBEA tuning happening.


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## Durero

Worth a try. Let us know the results


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## Garry Goodman




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## Murdstone

Hollowway said:


> Nothing to add about A4 yet (other than my 10 string, which I will comment on when it's back from a pickup swap). But I do want to say I'm FULLY in support of this forum, and I would LOVE to see further research/development in this area. And if there's anywhere in the world for this sort of thing to develop, I can't think of a more likely epicenter than this forum.


What are you swapping with?
Were the Villex no good? I'm thinking about looking around for a custom pickup for the 10 and they're on my list.


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## vansinn

Garry Goodman said:


>



And this is exactly one of the reasons I opened this thread - attracting the producers! 

So far we are seeing manufacturer interest from Octave4plus and La Bella, via Mtech. Where are the others ?
Innovation is driven by customer needs and competition; without the latter, the result is stagnation..


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## Garry Goodman

vansinn said:


> And this is exactly one of the reasons I opened this thread - attracting the producers!
> 
> So far we are seeing manufacturer interest from Octave4plus and La Bella, via Mtech. Where are the others ?
> Innovation is driven by customer needs and competition; without the latter, the result is stagnation..




What exactly are the customer's needs in this case?


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## vansinn

vansinn said:


> Innovation is driven by customer needs and competition; without the latter, the result is stagnation..





Garry Goodman said:


> What exactly are the customer's needs in this case?



I can of course only answer on my own viewpoints and needs 

I'd like to see affordable strings (dunno, say.. max a dollar..) which can be tuned right up to A4 at scales from 25" to say.. 27" without special requirements other that the obvious, i.e. the whole string path must be as straight and smooth as possible (as stated in the OP).
Such strings should be bendable at least one semitone, preferably two.
They should be durable enough to not require a backup instrument. Changing uptuned strings a little more often than ordinary strings should be acceptable by players. though.
Such strings would also be useful for those working with up-tunings in fifth.
Plus of course be useful on other types of stringed instruments. I believe some banjo players tune high too, likely others as well..

Of course I realize some/many will want to be able to work with longer scales; however, I believe being able to cover the most commonly used scale ranges in production guitars would be a good start.

I have no idea as to how such a string would handle the sometimes rather sharp bend in through-body arrangements.

Taking it further, I'm working on being able to flip the top three strings, i.e. B,E,A(4) up one semitone, to have a full fourth tuning, mostly for shredding.
Again, I'd want to be able to bend 1-2 semitones, i.e. the string should be able to handle at least B4.

In the more extreme, I'd like being able to flip the top string between G4 and Bb4, while stiil being able to bend 1-2 semitones.
The reason being that on the upper 4 strings, I'd like to be able to flip between major forth tuning, ending on G4, over 'standard' tuning, ending on A4, and full fourth tuning, ending on Bb4.
Adding the need for bendings, I see this as quite a requirement on the strings ability to handle at least two full stops of pitch change


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## bostjan

Good to see you back here, Garry.

I'm slightly confused.

At 25.5", I've taken D'Addario .007s up to A4 on a cheap Samick. They typically snap in unusual places after a couple days. Garry's strings last much longer than stock D'Addarios, but they do feel a little different.

One comment for everyone here to contemplate - Are you familiar with pedal steel guitar? These instruments have a scale length of typically 25-26", and the highest string is tuned G#4, with a pedal that takes it up to A4. This is the same scale length as the guitars we speak of, with a string tuned a half step lower with a semitone bend available. This is in standard E9 tuning, so it's nothing special for country players to deal with. Why does it seem like brain surgery to try to replicate this tension in rock music?

Some of the older classical players, by the way, had seven string classical guitars with a high a.

I have my Oni strung with a 23 5/8" high A4 for years now, and I've had no more string breakage problems with the high string than I've had with any other string. I've never had much trouble tuning my crappy Samick or my $79 Dean with a G#4 at 25.5" with plain old D'Addarios.

I just can't believe that it's this much trouble for the members here.

Maybe it's the bridge, or other hardware - or maybe it's the more aggressive playing style.

I would urge you all to keep experimenting if you want to tune up. I know some members here had a rough time with the O4+ strings, but I'm pretty sure there was some extenuating circumstance, because I've never had mechanical issues with mine. I'm pretty sure if I can take a poorly made Samick seven string and tune up to A4 with an ordinary .007, a little sandpaper, a toothbrush, and a couple hours patience, that you guys should be able to figure this one out.

Incidentally, have any of you tried the RPS strings made to withstand higher tensions?


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## Murdstone

I've still had the same O4P high A at 27" on my 10 since I got it. My style of playing rarely sees a lot of bending, but it should still speak for the string itself.


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## Garry Goodman

Murdstone said:


> I've still had the same O4P high A at 27" on my 10 since I got it. My style of playing rarely sees a lot of bending, but it should still speak for the string itself.



Thanks for posting this! Please PM me.

You represent the feelings of about 450 Octave4Plus customers, some of which are iconic guitarists.
Octave4Plus were the first dedicated A4 and B4 strings. 

They are always being improved. 

Visit the Octave4Plus Facebook page to see how the A4 strings and B4 strings tune to pitch in under 1 minute on a Strat copy and under 2 minutes on the Oakland Axe Factory 10-string.

The new .0055 can bend pitch up a minor 3rd. Video coming soon.


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## Durero

I've had extensive experience with O4P strings and they've far outperformed anything else I've tried. They've reached A4 on my 28.625" scale 9-string but have usually broken after a month or two. 

Since I've tuned down to G#4 on the same guitar I'm still using the first O4P string I've tried and it's been on there for well over a year now(!)

The O4P strings seem to last significantly longer before corroding as well 



Edit: Garry I didn't see your post before posting mine. I should say for the record that my statement above is about the performance of strings which Garry sent me about two years ago or thereabouts. Glad to hear they're still being improved Garry


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## Hollowway

Murdstone said:


> What are you swapping with?
> Were the Villex no good? I'm thinking about looking around for a custom pickup for the 10 and they're on my list.



No, I was happy with the Villex pups, but I asked for them to be reverse P style (so the active pole pieces on the bass strings would be against the bridge, and the active pole pieces on the treble strings toward the next) and he accidentally made it the reverse of that (standard P style). So he's making new ones. It was a bit of a production because he epoxies them in custom shells so Tom had to make new pup shells from scratch. But I plan on getting his pups in a future 9 from Tom. They're very clear (due to not being too hot).


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## Murdstone

Hollowway said:


> No, I was happy with the Villex pups, but I asked for them to be reverse P style (so the active pole pieces on the bass strings would be against the bridge, and the active pole pieces on the treble strings toward the next) and he accidentally made it the reverse of that (standard P style). So he's making new ones. It was a bit of a production because he epoxies them in custom shells so Tom had to make new pup shells from scratch. But I plan on getting his pups in a future 9 from Tom. They're very clear (due to not being too hot).



Ah, good to hear. I was thinking of sending them an email to get a quote on a sort of sustainer, I think that would be a great kind of pup for the 10 which is already extremely resonant with the bubinga. 

Garry I'd shoot you a PM but it appears you have the feature turned off.


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## vansinn

Has anyone tried or considered using Steinberg headless tuners for higher tuning (A4+) applications?
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...q=steinberger+gear&sa=X&oi=image_result_group

Looking at how they're build reveals strings being routed in a very direct path from nut to tuner, and fairly gentle over the curved lead into the cylinder.
Also, the way the lock press on the string likewise seems to be a fairly gentle way of securing strings without sharp angles, which otherwise could be a possible cause of string breakage.

Also, they're fairly lightweight, and can be mounted close and in alternate arrangements, both of which would be nice on multistringers.

In a shop the other day, I tried mingling with those on a luthier-build; felt really sexily smooth.

It would seem those usually are sold in sixpacks only; however, it seems StewMac at least has some sort of additional 3+ arrangement at reduced price, though whatever this is about isn't clear to me (haven't asked them as yet).
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Steinberger_Gearless_Tuners.html

Yes, I'm aware of the price. Some components just comes with a less desireable pricetag.. 

I'm sure some will say those only handles up to .60 gauges, which should easily be overcome by mounting the strings on the plain wire only - which is what holds the tension anyways.
Some strings are available with customer spec'ed windings, others are fairly easily unwinded for this purpose.
Which of course has nothing to do with A4+ applications, just that a guitar might look better if all tuners are the same type


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## Durero

^ Yes I've tried them and they don't have enough tuning range to accomodate the large amount of stretching required for reaching A4. They're close to their limit just with E4.

Otherwise they're fantastic tuning machines and I'd highly recommend them for other applications.


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## knuckle_head

When I screwed around with A4 I did it with a Duo Sonic and a Mustang - each the vintage scale length the Duo Sonic started with, and all with stock hardware. I think it was 22.5" or 22.75" - you know it by the fretboards having a dot beween the last two frets on the board. If there's a dot in the second it's the 24" scale length.

The Mustang handled it reliably better than the Duo Sonic - I always attributed it to the trem, even though I never made use of it. Always a matter of days with the hardtail, but I could get a week or more out of the Mustangs.


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## vansinn

Just adding a reference link to the cool ongoing discussion: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/174723-9-string-guitar-thread.html

(would've great being able to keep adding such threads to the top post..)


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## Hollowway

Well, just to chime in here, I just broke my remaining 3 O4P A4s. They were on the OAF 10 string (27 inches). My first one broke with a 1/2 step bend when tuned to A4, the second at G after being on about 12 hours and the 3rd at F# (I was trying to tune a half step per day). The first one lasted for months and months, but the last two - not so much. 

Interestingly, the A4 sounded like it wasn't really ringing out much. There wasn't much sustain, and I was actually wondering if the pickup had a problem with it. But I've since put on a .0085 and it sounds much better - like a regular string (well, it is a regular string! ). It might be that a .006 at 27" is just inherently going to sound thin. 

At any rate, I'm going to try to get up to G with a standard string and maybe just use it for extended chords.


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## applegonebad

Schecter Damien Elite 8, BEADGbea. During this video I actually snap the A while demonstrating bending. 26.5' scale length.


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## vansinn

^ Thanks for adding this. I'm not surprised you keep breaking both the 007 and 008 strings 
You didn't mention how long those D'addario 007's lasts at a time, but from your 10 pack shopping with five broken, I'll assume they don't last too long.
Stiil would be interesting knowing how long they last when you refrain from bending..

I'm tuning my Schecter Riot 8 ltd A1...G4, using a Rotosound (what the store had) 008 topmost.
I accidentally tried tuning to A4 (because I was tired and didn't think al all), and had it break right before reaching A4; no wonder there..

WRT tuners, my Groove's also have fairly sharp break angles, as do the transition over the Schecter/Hipshot through body bridge.
Even though I only tune to G4, I do bend half stops a lot and occationally a full stop to A4, so due to these sharp breaks, I reinforce my top 008 strings at both ends. I'll do a post about how I do this, maybe tomorrow, time permitting.

Interestingly, all A4 string I've been testing on two different guitars, all broke at random places, and never at tuner, nut, saddle et al..


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## ImBCRichBitch

applegonebad said:


> Schecter Damien Elite 8, BEADGbea. During this video I actually snap the A while demonstrating bending. 26.5' scale length.


 Bro, try a heavier string for the high A, like the one you used on the high E. It feels weird but plays fine and will tune to A. But as for Ernie balls, i wouldnt recommend them. None of em. Ever.


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## rekab

I'm still on the same high a string as my previous post here... 24.75" 7 String AX7221
007 daddario. Rusty as hell now but it's a trooper that doesn't want to break.


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## vansinn

ImBCRichBitch said:


> Bro, try a heavier string for the high A, like the one you used on the high E. It feels weird but plays fine and will tune to A. But as for Ernie balls, i wouldnt recommend them. None of em. Ever.



Not sure about heavier gauges.. at least I wouldn't bother above a D'Addario 0085.
I can't comment on Ernie Ball plains for high tunings (off EB for 15+ years); I do their Power Slinky bass 050+070 for A1+D2, tough (A4 OT, sorry).

Also try La Bella's HRS 008, which might fair well with high tunings. Mtech in here posted info about them somwhere in this thread, IIRC.
Reminder to self: must order some for tests


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## Mindcrime1204

ImBCRichBitch said:


> Bro, try a heavier string for the high A, like the one you used on the high E. It feels weird but plays fine and will tune to A. But as for Ernie balls, i wouldnt recommend them. None of em. Ever.


 
How is a thicker string with more tension likely to hold if he can barely get the 7 and 8s to hold at 26.5?


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## vansinn

Mindcrime1204 said:


> How is a thicker string with more tension likely to hold if he can barely get the 7 and 8s to hold at 26.5?



Mmnn, well.. it does sound counter intuitive, but reports has been filed stating some has had better success with 0085's than 008's.
One explanation could be a slightly higher gauged string could be slightly stronger by virtue of just a Bit more steel in it, and thus, though exibiting a little higher tention, possess the same, or slightly higher, tensile strenght.
But what do I know..


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## vansinn

An important link: 
8stringer's cool post about how to determine a set of strings with correct tensions:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...ring-tension-problems-forever-30-minutes.html


And to reiterate where the string tension calculator resides:
http://www.bangzero.org/stringtension


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## vansinn

Been a long time since we've had updates with success stories here.

I believe I've seen some resent posts about not only getting up to A4, but from the looks of it actually _playing_ at A4.

I have no idea about how this was done.
We need success stories!

If you really made it work, then please elaborate on:
. using which strings: brand, gauge..
. scale you tune to on which instrument
. how you tune up, i.e. slow, stepwise with pauses, or just wind the tuner..
. how much you can bend the string - and how often you do it
. stability: how often that string is replaced


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## GuyB

I tune to High Bb on the treble string on 7 string guitars.

My tuning is E,A,D,G,C,F,Bb on a 25.5 inch scale.

I've used Garry Goodman's Octave4 string for 6 months, great strings, but follow the installation instructions properly. I keep the string on for a month before I change it.

There is no real reason to change once a month, I'm sure the string would last a lot longer.

I don't bend strings with my style of playing. 

The top string string gauge is 9.

The more important information is that my 7 string guitars all have stop tail type bridges and the top treble string machine head is 30mm way from the Graphite nut.

GuyB
http://octave4plus.com/


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## vansinn

^ cool info.
How did you settle on changing the string once a month?
I'd guess it lasted a Bit longer, and you then decided on once a month..

Which gauge on that top string?
How much do you bend it without breaking?


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## GuyB

vansinn said:


> ^ cool info.
> How did you settle on changing the string once a month?
> I'd guess it lasted a Bit longer, and you then decided on once a month..
> 
> Which gauge on that top string?
> How much do you bend it without breaking?



There is no real reason to change once a month, I'm sure the string would last a lot longer.

I don't bend strings. 

The top string string gauge is 9.

The more important information is that my guitars have stop tail type bridges and the top treble string machine head is 30mm way from the Graphite nut.

GuyB


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## Fishnuggets

Fishnuggets said:


> I received an email from juststrings answering my question of overall length of their .007 string. They claim it's 42" in lenght. At $.49 it's seems worth buying a few to experiment with. I'll hook that up tomorrow.
> 
> I'm hoping to get a EBEADGBEA tuning happening.


 











Almost a year later and I >finally< have some strings to break. I have a little recording to do saturday but I am VERY excited to start with the great experiment.

I ended up ordering from LaBella. The string packs are all sealed in plactic bags together. I bought:

5 -.007p @ $1.00 ea
3 -.009p @ $1.00 ea
2 -.012p @ $1.00 ea
2 -.016p @ $1.00 ea
2 -.024w @ $1.33 ea
2 -.032w @ $1.33 ea
2 -.044w @ $1.38 ea
2 -.058w @ $1.42 ea
2 -.078w @ $3.90 ea
1 -.084w @ $3.90
1 -.100w @ $4.25

Total with shipping was $44.47


I seriously have no idea what the hell I'm doing. I wanted to experiment with string sizes (hell, I always have) and decided this is the time. I have a few bucks, some free time, and a sense of adventure.


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## Fishnuggets

The first .007 I put in I tuned up to E and went to work. When I got home I tuned to F# and hopped in the shower. When I got out it had snapped at the tuning peg where it bends (I put the string through the tuning peg hole, wrap one time around the top, bend the string up and wrap the rest around the bottom).

The second string I did different. I put the string through the holeand just wound it. It went to E with no problem but just short of F# it snapped again at the tuning peg where it wraps around the post.

Any thoughts on how to eliminate the string snapping at the tuning peg?

I know most people will say "stop trying, it won't work" but I'm going to try, someone's got to try this. I'm hoping for ideas on how to make this work, not "Negative Nancy's" telling me not to try.

Thanks in advance.


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## TemjinStrife

People have tried it. It won't work


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## Winspear

^ You're playing a 30", right?

Seems to be most people (including the tests I've tried) make A the limit at 25.5" with 007. Even that isn't incredibly safe. This tension translates to F# on 30". 

So, I'm not going to tell you not to try but do be aware that this IS the limit. I would be surprised if it didn't atleast stay at F# for a while, if you didn't bend or anything. But each guitar will vary. 

As for your specific problem, try filing about the tuning peg to make sure there's no rough edge or something causing the string to break. 

But really, don't hang on to any hope of tuning above F reliably without O4P strings.


----------



## Durero

I've tried it as well on a 28.625" scale and O4P strings could reach the A but wouldn't last more than a month or so. They'd last indefinitely at Ab.

I've heard of .0085 gage D'Addario strings reaching A5* at 25.5" scale but I haven't been able to reliably get there myself. *Edit: A4 


If you compare how high you can get with the .007's then try a .009 you should find the .009 reaches a higher pitch before breaking. That has certainly been my experience.


----------



## vansinn

Fishnuggets said:


> Any thoughts on how to eliminate the string snapping at the tuning peg?



Reinforce the string on the part going through tuner - and while at it, the part right behind the bridge saddles, if those have a sharp break, like with most through-body arrangements.

You can use cotton (like on some bass strings) dipped in lacquer or maybe cyanoacrylate - just make sure to wear gloves and have ventilation.

You can also strap the end of the string + a separate piece of thin string into a wenge, then hold the string tightened out while wrapping the extra piece of wire around it.
Finish up holding both wires tight, and lightly run a solder iron over them.

Then install the string by giving it an angle right at the tuner post and turn the half to full turn needed; not by wrapping the string around the post, as this only serves to cause tuning instability.



Durero said:


> I've heard of .0085 gage D'Addario strings reaching A5 at 25.5" scale but I haven't been able to reliably get there myself.



Oh dear metal gods.. _A*5*_


----------



## Durero

vansinn said:


> Oh dear metal gods.. _A*5*_



 My mistake: A4 is the correct octave. Thanks vansinn


----------



## Fishnuggets

vansinn said:


> Reinforce the string on the part going through tuner - and while at it, the part right behind the bridge saddles, if those have a sharp break, like with most through-body arrangements.
> 
> You can use cotton (like on some bass strings) dipped in lacquer or maybe cyanoacrylate - just make sure to wear gloves and have ventilation.


 
This is a great idea, working at the Home D I'll be able to score some lacquer quite easily, but DAMN, "cyanoacrylate" I had to Google. That's too many syllables for my Texas education!



vansinn said:


> You can also strap the end of the string + a separate piece of thin string into a wenge, then hold the string tightened out while wrapping the extra piece of wire around it.
> Finish up holding both wires tight, and lightly run a solder iron over them.
> 
> Then install the string by giving it an angle right at the tuner post and turn the half to full turn needed; not by wrapping the string around the post, as this only serves to cause tuning instability.


 
After attempting to do my own soldering work, my tech forbade me from ever touching a soldering iron ever again. I choose door number 1.



EtherealEntity said:


> You're playing a 30", right?


 
Yes.




EtherealEntity said:


> Seems to be most people make A the limit at 25.5" with 007. This tension translates to F# on 30".


 
I did not know this. it kinda takes the wind oot of my sails... 




EtherealEntity said:


> I would be surprised if it didn't atleast stay at F# for a while,


 
I was actually hoping for G, that would have been fun. F# just seems kinda pointless now. I know it's only a half step, but it changes what tuning I was hoping to get.




EtherealEntity said:


> try filing about the tuning peg to make sure there's no rough edge or something causing the string to break.


 
I might combine this with door number 1. 




EtherealEntity said:


> But really, don't hang on to any hope of tuning above F reliably without O4P strings.


 
O4P strings are probably going to have to be the answer, but as of now, O4P doesn't offer a 30" A4 I can just buy from the site. Looks like it'll be a custom job with custom pricing.

After thinking aboot this whilst I typed, I might abandon the A4 dream for now...


----------



## Explorer

Let me toss out one alternative for reinforcing a string at the bridge/tuner:

Heatshrink tubing.

I think this came up on another forum regarding O4+ strings, and a friend of mine mentioned that on his TOM bridge saddle, he would put the string through a little length of heatshrink tubing, just so the outside was padded over the saddle. It didn't do anything to his intonation, and protected the O4+ string from being cut into by the TOM saddle. 

Same thing with the tuning machine.

You don't have to shrink it, just make sure the tubing is centered on the trouble spot.


----------



## knuckle_head

Fishnuggets said:


> O4P strings are probably going to have to be the answer, but as of now, O4P doesn't offer a 30" A4 I can just buy from the site. Looks like it'll be a custom job with custom pricing.



Garry makes the ultra skinny strings available to Yves Carbonne - a bass player - will a bass ball end work?


----------



## vansinn

knuckle_head said:


> Garry makes the ultra skinny strings available to Yves Carbonne - a bass player - will a bass ball end work?



Hehe.. are you saying you have high-tuning strings of interesting alloys on the way..? 

A bass ball may be problem on som bridges.
It isn't much of a problem with most thru-body's; the ball will sit halfway out, but it won't feel annoying.
(the remedy is using ferrules with a larger outer-most recess, thus taking both guitar and bass balls)

Besides this, my observation has been A4 strings breaking at random spots across the scale. I've never had one of my reinforced ones break at the tuner, nut, saddle or the sharp-angled thru-body spots, so I feel certain A4 breakage is mostly down to the right alloy and gauge - provided the instrument is layed out to allow tuning high, i.e. no sharp edges, smooth lines for the strings (and still.. thru-body can work too).

Also, on any string from 009 and thinner, I've never had the ball wrapping slip once given a light solder to lock 'em.


----------



## ixlramp

knuckle_head said:


> Garry makes the ultra skinny strings available to Yves Carbonne - a bass player - will a bass ball end work?


k_h is referring to the Octave4Plus .006 or .007 plain bass strings Yves uses for top F#4 of his 34" 12 string bass


----------



## knuckle_head

vansinn said:


> Also, on any string from 009 and thinner, I've never had the ball wrapping slip once given a light solder to lock 'em.



I like dipping the ball end in super glue just past the twist - guitar or bass - if I know it will have high tension.


----------



## GuyB

GuyB said:


> I tune to High Bb on the treble string on 7 string guitars.
> 
> My tuning is E,A,D,G,C,F,Bb on a 25.5 inch scale.
> 
> I've used Garry Goodman's Octave4 string for 6 months, great strings, but follow the installation instructions properly. I keep the string on for a month before I change it.
> 
> There is no real reason to change once a month, I'm sure the string would last a lot longer.
> 
> I don't bend strings with my style of playing.
> 
> The top string string gauge is 9.
> 
> The more important information is that my 7 string guitars all have stop tail type bridges and the top treble string machine head is 30mm way from the Graphite nut.
> 
> GuyB
> octave4plus.com




Thanks to all the information on this forum, I can say that the A# high treble strings on my guitars work excellently.
Guy 
Guy


----------



## stuglue

Hi guys, I've had my 8 string for just over two months.
Progress report, I've had the guitar tuned to Eb for about month. The high Ab was fine, I could bend without any snapping. Anyway about three weeks ago I decided to see if I could tune to regular A 440. Well, the string lasted until Monday evening when it snapped whilst I was tapping a lick on it.
I was using a daddario .007. You can get Ab no problem but high A, well, you'll get it but for how long it'll last, not very long. Scale length 26.5"


----------



## Winspear

And now for something different!
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ja...uning-above-e4-great-results.html#post3354750


----------



## HOKENSTYFE

Just found this thread. Amazing. I've heard the horror stories of the High A. Since now I am going to commit on a tuning with a High A...well... Needless to say, I got reading to do.

+1


----------



## Winspear

HOKENSTYFE said:


> Just found this thread. Amazing. I've heard the horror stories of the High A. Since now I am going to commit on a tuning with a High A...well... Needless to say, I got reading to do.
> 
> +1



The TLDR: Octave4Plus make strings which will do it no problem on standard scale but I've heard people struggling to get hold of them..
Regular 007 strings will make it but be very fragile
Ab with 008 or 007 is much safer so maybe consider tuning a semitone down.
24.75" scale is better than 25.5"


----------



## HOKENSTYFE

EtherealEntity said:


> The TLDR: Octave4Plus make strings which will do it no problem on standard scale but I've heard people struggling to get hold of them..
> Regular 007 strings will make it but be very fragile
> Ab with 008 or 007 is much safer so maybe consider tuning a semitone down.
> 24.75" scale is better than 25.5"



Correct me if I'm wrong but, the only significant issue with using a thicker gauge would be the tension, right? The thicker the gauge for the high A, the looser the tension. So the issue becomes being too reliant on that "Tight" feel on treble strings...


----------



## Winspear

The thicker the gauge the HIGHER the tension! 
The thicker string is stronger, but at the same time requires more tension to reach X note.

I'll pull some numbers out my ass to illustrate:
A 007 gauge might break at 12lbs and be safe at 11lbs. On 27" scale, it might reach A at 12.2lbs" - therefore wont work.
A 008 gauge might break at 13lbs, and be safe at 12.2lbs. BUT it's going to take more than 12.2lbs to reach A...whether it takes less than 13lbs and lets you reach A is another question.

So it's a balancing act of string strength vs. tension required for a string of that weight to reach a note.

A detailed clear example of this that I did yesterday, but with nylon strings (Though, the thinnest ones did actually take higher tension for some reason - I'm guessing that would not be consistent with more testing)
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ja...uning-above-e4-great-results.html#post3354750


----------



## HOKENSTYFE

Got it.


----------



## jonajon91

We need videos people!


----------



## ixlramp

NAMM 2013: Ernie Ball Announces M-Steel Electric Guitar Strings | Guitar World

I wonder if these higher strength strings will reliably get to A4, can't wait for someone to try.


----------



## Durero

Very interesting.

I'll likely give them a try when they appear on the juststrings.com site.


----------



## vansinn

Holy smokes, didn't realize my thread was still alive 
Cool with the new EB strings potentially being better suited at high tunings.
With my discontent for 007 cheese-slizer gauges, moving on to defense alloys is equally weird, haha..

I dropped out of attempting to tune to A4, because this, with current (previous) string alloys, would require in the neighborhood of 24" scale, especially because I must be able to bend.
While tuning to G4 on my Schecter Riot 8 ltd works fine with a 008, it's still too hard to bend, compared to the other strings.
007 only makes it feel a Bit more bendable, but in reality, the string clearly doesn't like being bend beyond A4#, and outright says " nonono, can't take it, stop spanking me".
I can bend 1-2 stops on all strings except on the G4, which hardly allows even one stop.

Ernie Ball has traditionally used a steel with a higher carbon contents than most others, which hasn't affected bendability to much noticeable degree, so let's hope this new alloy not just has more tensile strength, but will also be nicely bendable.

Another possibility I've considered is whether plain strings for Sitar might be useful.
After all, the Sitar can be up to 35.4" in scale, and though the highest string is only a C - isn't that C3? - those strings nevertheless gets bend quite severely at times, so...


Now, we'll still need someone to come up with thinner hight-tension low strings - maybe like D'addario's tungsten-steel formula, as it's used in their electric cello strings. Flatwounds though, so less applicable for guitar..


----------



## ixlramp

As far as i know sitar strings are nothing special and probably the same as an average guitar plain, the huge bends are possible only because they are tuned very loose.


----------



## Durero

^ agreed


----------



## jonajon91

News from Etherial

Just a heads up I know nothing of the world of A4, but I thought I would share.

LINK







_'Fanned 10 string currently in progress, just base colour coats so far, still a lot of detailing to add but couldn't resist posting this '_

Its going to be like a standard eight string, but with a string on either side. The A4 string side is going to be 24" with a 0.09 string. Thoughts? does that seem right?


----------



## Winspear

Yep that seems right - that's the same (very very slightly less) tension as a 25.5" G#. Still pushing it just a little, which is why I went 24.75" for G#, but useable. Semitone bends will be the limit.


----------



## GuyB

Update:

I've been using Octave4plus high treble strings tuned to A# for over 18 months on a 25.5inch scale with no problems at all.

Impressed.
Guy


----------



## Winspear

Strange things. 
I designed my ViK scale length around G# by testing D'addarios, as you may know. 24.75" was deemed safe. 
I've had no problems and only broken the string twice whilst bending in about 6 months of playing. 
However, in the last month, the few D'addarios I had ran out and I started putting my CK 008s on. I have had literally no time to play in 6 weeks or so - but gone through 5 of them. Sometimes (happened twice in a row before posting this) they wont even make it to pitch. 

So I'm going to assume that the D'addarios are stronger for whatever reason. I'm ordering some of those and hopefully I can trust my high string again. I'm certain I had a CK on there before at some time though...


----------



## InfinityCollision

How peculiar... any consistency with regards to where they break?


----------



## Winspear

Most of them just a few cm from the tuner if I recall correctly. Two have been mid fretboard though.


----------



## Winspear

So my D'addario 008s arrived and I thought I'd try to tune up the two remaining CK 008s just to confirm that they do indeed break...This time it's held up fine haha. No idea what caused so many CKs to break last month!


----------



## vansinn

Has anyone high-tune tested the fairly new Ernie Ball plains, using an alloy containing tungsten, and claimed to have higher tensile strength?


----------



## InfinityCollision

I don't think they're out yet.


----------



## InfinityCollision

So I was digging through Bostjan's old thread and found this tidbit that might be of interest to this thread:



> String breakage for steel strings- maximum frequency = 11703 diveded by scale length in inches.
> 
> example: 25.5" scale length = 11703 / 25.5 = 459 Hz.
> 
> This will vary with different strings, but if you know the Tensil strength and the density, replace 11703 with the square root of tensile strength divided by density, then divide by two times the fourth root of two.


This post suggests that A4 should actually be achieveable, if only _just_ barely (A#4 is 466 Hz), at 25.5" in an ideal situation.

I'm not especially knowledgeable in the field of material sciences, but from what I gather tensile strength represents the breaking point for the string. As such, I believe yield strength (the level of stress beyond which the material experiences a certain amount of permanent deformation) would be a more appropriate value to use. The yield strength of music wire (generally A228) is ~90.5% of its ultimate tensile strength (using values for 0.00787 in diameter wire from the Matweb datasheet for A228). As such, multiplying the frequency generated from the above equation by 0.905 might yield a more appropriate value for general use - the first is an absolute limit, the latter a practical limit.

For the above we find 459*0.905=415.395 Hz, which is almost exactly G#4. This is pretty well in line with findings here involving common strings and their breaking points: usage above G#4 at 25.5" induces permanent deformation, likely leading to the string's breakage. But since specifications are given as minimum requirements, there's a little bit of wiggle room and you might be able to get higher using a fortunate subset of strings with sufficient care.

Going by this rule, the longest practical scale length for reaching A4 without permanent deformation would be ~24.07". Of course, you probably want to bend... A#4 is doable at ~22.73".

Caveat: I don't know what might represent "normal" manufacturing variance for A228, so I can't estimate a "typical" functional length for a given frequency. As such, this likely constitutes a fairly pessimistic view of the performance of a given string.

Now if we just knew what formula EB is using for these new strings...

EDIT: Oh yeah, maraging steel. Give me a minute.


----------



## InfinityCollision

Ugh... The alloys I've found lack the necessary tensile strength vs density, but I have seen a couple of references to 3500+ MPa tensile strength and the press release suggests that EB actually developed the particular alloy involved. I keep getting blocked by payment barriers so I can't find yield strength info for those higher-strength alloys, but the higher-strength alloys among those I did find (2000-2700 MPa UTS) had yield strengths corresponding to 95-97% of their tensile strengths. A4 could definitely be within reach.

This is where my lack of materials knowledge shows through: can anyone clarify the formula in the post I quoted? I can't figure out how he got that 11703 value or anything near it  I'm reading it as sqrt(TS/p)/2^(5/4).

EDIT: Also, I don't think it contains tungsten.

EDIT2: Should've checked the video again... it claims 460000 psi (3172 MPa) tensile strength for m-steel, or a ~9% improvement over A288. No info on yield strength, but given the higher tensile strength and (likely) improved yield strength to tensile strength ratio, A4 should be well within reach. Now if only density info was available... I suspect it'll be slightly denser than A288, but the change in yield strength should be more significant than the change in density.


----------



## 7stg

Here is the info I have:

breaking strength = ultimate tensile strength * &#960; * (diameter, in inches / 2)^2
ultimate tensile strength - 350,000 lb/sq.in.to 450,000 lb/sq.in. is common.
&#960; = 3.14159265358979

String Diameter Breaking Point Lower Strength (lb) Breaking Point Higher Strength (lb)
.0070 13.47 17.32
.0075 15.46 19.88
.0080 17.59 22.62
.0085 19.86 25.54
.0090 22.27 28.63
.0095 24.81 31.90
.0100 27.49 35.34
.0105 30.31 38.97
.0110 33.26 42.76
.0115 36.35 46.74
.0120 39.58 50.89


After 25.0" scale high strength strings are needed.


----------



## InfinityCollision

7stg said:


> Here is the info I have:
> 
> breaking strength = ultimate tensile strength * &#960; * (diameter, in inches / 2)^2
> ultimate tensile strength - 350,000 lb/sq.in.to 450,000 lb/sq.in. is common.
> &#960; = 3.14159265358979



Yeah, this is what I'm currently trying to work off of. We should be able to use this and the standard tension equation to find the breaking frequency:

T=UTS*pi*r^2
T=(UW*(2*L*F)^2)/386.4

386.4*T/UW=(2*L*F)^2
F=sqrt(386.4*T/UW)/(2*L)
F=sqrt((386.4*UTS*pi*r^2)/(UW))/(2*L)

My concern is that I get slightly different (higher) results with this formula. Will revisit it in the morning.


----------



## vansinn

Very nice seeing more materials and math info coming in.. 

Regarding which steels are normally used for core wire, I was under the impression D'Addario is using 195 steel, while Ernie Ball is using 205 (or 208) steel.
This was referred to me by a dealer whose dad started a metal industry, but I could remember wrong, or not gotten the story right..
I do know there are differences in applied steels, like Rotosounds will corrode like crasy.

Hehe, what I really want is an alloy featuring both linear stretching capability and build-in molecular memory, allowing it to return to previous operating conditions after four semitone bends from C5.
C4 is old fashioned, I want semtex-grade strings


----------



## InfinityCollision

I might be looking at the wrong type somehow, but 195 and 205 are both low strength steels. Their UTS values are ~20% of A228, making them unsuitable for use as core wire. A228 is a much better match for 7stg's UTS data (taken from this page if I'm not mistaken) and its tensile strength yields frequencies in the 440 Hz range when plugged into the above equation. Maybe they're used for wraps, I don't know.

Consulting unit weight tables isn't really an option for an unknown alloy, so let's rewrite the above equation in a manner that allows us to use density values instead. This may also prove useful in establishing the type of steel involved with conventional strings. It also lets me get away from the term "unit weight", which has been incredibly annoying to work with because it's usually used interchangeably with specific weight. Not so here.

Too lazy to get a rho symbol in here so bear with my use of p for density. Granted I haven't been using the appropriate symbol for tensile strength either...

UW=m/L
m=p*V
UW=pV/L=pA=p*pi*r^2

F=sqrt((386.4*UTS*pi*r^2)/(p*pi*r^2))/(2*L)
*F=sqrt(386.4*UTS/p)/(2*L)*

Much better. If you want to solve for the desired length for a given frequency, just switch L and F.

Now, back to the point at hand. In the promo video, EB gives a 460000 psi UTS for m-steel and 420000 for music wire. Yield strength of m-steel is unknown, so I'll present several cases: 90% of UTS a la A228, 95%, and 97%. The actual value could be anywhere in this range or potentially even lower, but I would say that 95~97% is a reasonable guess given the publicly available data on harder varieties of maraging steel alloys. We'll find out this summer!

The other unknown factor is density. For our purposes, less dense is better. Based on my research, I would guess that m-steel is comparable to or possibly slightly more dense than music wire. However, I'd also estimate that any negative impact from this would reduce the breaking frequency of m-steel by less than 2%. For now I'm going to use a value that reduces breaking frequency (or length) by about 1% relative to A228's density.

Also of note: crack propagation in maraging steel alloys is significantly slower than in carbon steel, so even when pushed to its limits m-steel may perform better than existing strings.



Code:


	90% yield	95% yield	97% yield
UTS (psi)	460000	460000	460000
Yield strength	414000	437000	446200
A4 (440 Hz)	26.735&#8221;	27.468&#8221;	27.756&#8221;
A#4 (466 Hz)	25.244&#8221;	25.935&#8221;	26.207&#8221;
B4 (494 Hz)	23.813&#8221;	24.465&#8221;	24.722&#8221;
C5 (523 Hz)	22.493&#8221;	23.109&#8221;	23.351&#8221;


Seems promising. I will state that I get scale lengths in the neighborhood of 25.5" for A4 with A228 data using the above equation but again, that's putting the string right at its yield point. Oxidation, stress from playing, manufacturing defects, etc will compromise the string in short order if pushed that far, leading to breakage as so many here have observed. Obviously should be taken with a grain of salt given that and the as-yet unknown properties of m-steel, but it's encouraging.


----------



## Guitarguy77

I'm thinking about tuning my ernie ball 9 up to A440 on my 25 scale 12 string. I calculated the difference between a 24.75 and 25 to have 0.4 difference when a 9 is tuned to A4. String Tension I have gotten within 40 cents flat from A with a martin 10 on a 25.3.. String was fresh out of the box. Didn't leave it there for long. String did not snap. I have mine at G4 for a month and a half and had not had a problem. I will try to tune it to at least G#.


----------



## vansinn

^ good luck. There's quite a difference going from G4 to A4.
As I wrote in the opening post, a 008 lasted a week on 25", so..


----------



## Guitarguy77

vansinn said:


> ^ good luck. There's quite a difference going from G4 to A4.
> As I wrote in the opening post, a 008 lasted a week on 25", so..


 I overlooked the post. I'm now more open to the idea. I do have an acoustic 12 string. I heard strings are subject to a bit more stress on acoustic compared to electric.


----------



## focusbob

EtherealEntity said:


> The TLDR: Octave4Plus make strings which will do it no problem on standard scale but I've heard people struggling to get hold of them..



Aren't they like 5 bucks per string?


----------



## Winspear

Yes Bob. I would avoid them at all costs because the owner is a class A douchebag too haha. But if you have a guitar over ~24.25" and want a high A that wont break all the time, they are the only option.


----------



## Explorer

Just checking in to see if there was any progress on breaking the 25.5" G# barrier.

Interesting that I've never had an issue with Garry Goodman at O4+...


----------



## vansinn

For the sake of taking strings for hight tunings further, I think we should refrain from nagging on Garry Goodman/O4+; after all, he _does_ have strings that a number of folks have used to reach high tunings. Yes, others have been not so lucky..

Just remember that we're dealing with a combined strings/alloy industry that pays abysmal interest to the relatively few players worldwide going haywire'ish way off the beaten track 

As someone in here put it:
"We can send a man to the moon, but cannot build an A4 string"


----------



## Guitarguy77

I did make it to A4, but a few hours later it snapped. Tuned it back down to G4. Tried going up but it snapped. Used an ernie ball 9. WIll try again stay tuned.


----------



## Guitarguy77

applegonebad said:


> Schecter Damien Elite 8, BEADGbea. During this video I actually snap the A while demonstrating bending. 26.5' scale length.




Wow. I recently got an ernie ball 9 up to A4 on my 25 scale guitar. Snapped a few hours later. I calculated the tension of an 8 guage on a 26.5 scale and it has around 20 pounds of tension at A4.That's same as an 8 guage tuned to Bb4 on a 25.

String Tension


----------



## guitarfreak1387

so today i picked up some strings for my Ibby 1527. I wasnt really jiving with anything lower than b, and to get the b to sound decent to my ears i was running a 64 or 66. still i didnt like the way it was playing. 

New game plan. 
Picked up a pack of D'addario exl115 11-49 and a single .8. plan tuning to d standard with a high g up top.

2 questions to anyone that has tried the extra top method. 
with the 8 going to G, is there anything special i need to do while tuning it? like slowly going to pitch with breaks between?

and

what way did you like the top strings intervals or what worked better for you?
d-g-c-f-a-d-g or d-g-c-f-a-d#-g?


----------



## InfinityCollision

G is fine. You're staying below the yield strength of the string at that pitch and shouldn't experience any issues tuning it up normally. I'd be cautious about bending it more than a full step though and even that may have a small impact on the string's lifespan.

Were the M-steel strings ever actually released? Storefronts say they're unavailable and I'm seeing posts that suggest they may have been axed.


----------



## guitarfreak1387

InfinityCollision said:


> G is fine. You're staying below the yield strength of the string at that pitch and shouldn't experience any issues tuning it up normally. I'd be cautious about bending it more than a full step though and even that may have a small impact on the string's lifespan.



Bending is going to be a hard thing to avoid lol. i looked up the tension and its slightly over what a 9 would be tuned to e. i think it was 13.1 lbs, will bending still be an issue? is it cus its such a thin string?


----------



## InfinityCollision

You don't have to avoid bending, just be aware that large bends will have an effect on the lifespan of that string. String gauge is basically a nonfactor here; thicker strings are stronger (materials guys please bear with my informal wording here) but experience higher tension when tuned to a given pitch. Thinner strings are the opposite. As long as you're looking at the same type of string (wound vs plain, material type, etc), thickness doesn't have much effect on how high you can tune it.


----------



## Given To Fly

I'm currently sitting on G#+ on a 25.5" scale 8 string. I'm slowly tuning up to A or waiting for the string to break. I'm using a D'Addarrio .08 but will buy some .07's to be on the safe side; I'm not holding out hope for this .08, its in God's hands now.


----------



## Winspear

^ Don't expect the A to work out, but G# should be quite reliable without bending. Most of the time.

And yes what is mentioned above is true, the increase in tension as the weight of the string increases is just proportional to it's breaking tension, so gauge doesn't really matter. 

Guitarfreak, yes G is fine. Quite safe. Semitones make a big difference in this range. However, watch the Floyd if you do pull ups. If enough of a pull is made to take it much above G# it will break.


----------



## guitarfreak1387

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ Don't expect the A to work out, but G# should be quite reliable without bending. Most of the time.
> 
> And yes what is mentioned above is true, the increase in tension as the weight of the string increases is just proportional to it's breaking tension, so gauge doesn't really matter.
> 
> Guitarfreak, yes G is fine. Quite safe. Semitones make a big difference in this range. However, watch the Floyd if you do pull ups. If enough of a pull is made to take it much above G# it will break.



i got the edge pro blocked so i wont have to worry about that. I was feeling nervous about tuning up that high for fear the thin ass string was going to snap and slice off a finger lol. got her tuned up and im liking this tuning.

Still trying to figure out if i should keep it tuned D-G-C-F-A#-d-g OR D-G-C-F-A-d-g


----------



## Winspear

I wrote a post somewhere about this earlier. 
I was playing a 7 in BEADGBE. Got a high A on there, EADGBEA. Loved it. Tried tuning it to EADGCEA (BEADGBE tuned up) and found it completely changed my mentality. What was a 6 string in standard with a high A, suddenly became a 7 string that sounded higher than it should. 
Very interesting. Try both. I prefer 6+1 approach.


----------



## guitarfreak1387

my main concern was having to relearn all the shapes i memorized over the years. i will try out both though, hell it may even tempt me to buy another 7 later on down the road just for that reason  (dont laugh you would do it too)


----------



## Given To Fly

I wimped out, I'll wait for the .07's to arrive.


----------



## Durero

Given To Fly said:


> I wimped out, I'll wait for the .07's to arrive.



I did extensive high A testing many years ago and found that the .007's were significantly worse than .008's instead of better as I had hoped.

In fact .009's fared the best and got closest to A.

Since then I've seen several people report that the D'Addario .0085's were actually able to reach A at 25.5" scale. (That gage was not available when I was testing.)

I'd still say go for it and do the tests yourself and share the results. Just don't be shocked if you find that thinner strings don't reach higher and higher pitches.

At some point as the diameter shrinks we'll inevitable pass the optimum strength to weight ratio of the steel and start to back away from high A again.


----------



## Given To Fly

Durero said:


> I did extensive high A testing many years ago and found that the .007's were significantly worse than .008's instead of better as I had hoped.
> 
> In fact .009's fared the best and got closest to A.
> 
> Since then I've seen several people report that the D'Addario .0085's were actually able to reach A at 25.5" scale. (That gage was not available when I was testing.)
> 
> I'd still say go for it and do the tests yourself and share the results. Just don't be shocked if you find that thinner strings don't reach higher and higher pitches.
> 
> At some point as the diameter shrinks we'll inevitable pass the optimum strength to weight ratio of the steel and start to back away from high A again.



I suppose that makes sense. I'm mainly interested in having a P4 above the "E" string. If I have to tune down to a whole step to get it that would be fine. The reason I'm even trying this is I have an ESP LTD FM-408 which I got in a trade. Its actually a much nicer guitar than I thought it would be but I know there is no hope in trying to tune it down to a low F#...no hope.... So I figured why not go lower and higher? The likely tuning will be "a 7 string guitar, with a high A, everything down a whole step." (Or A-D-G-C-F-A-D-G for the people who like to see the pitch names.) It's ironic how I'm actually wishing the scale length was slightly shorter than 25.5."


----------



## Durero

Ah I see.

Your high G and low A tuning should work beautifully.

I'd highly recommend Circle K strings for the wound strings, especially the low A. They're my personal favourites at any rate.


----------



## Given To Fly

Durero said:


> Ah I see.
> 
> Your high G and low A tuning should work beautifully.
> 
> I'd highly recommend Circle K strings for the wound strings, especially the low A. They're my personal favourites at any rate.



I actually want to try use readily available strings such as D'Addarrio because as much as I'm having with this guitar I do plan on selling it. I'm going to install a VMC dual concentric tone control, play it for a week or so, and then miss it. My goal is to assemble a highly functional 25.5" scale length 8 string with tonal capabilities that are not only useful but surpass what is commonly accepted on active pickup guitars. I already have an RG2228 with 808x's but if I had to keep the FM- 408, I wouldn't be complaining. 

Oh, and I use Circle K strings for all my other guitars, both 7's and 8's.


----------



## Given To Fly

I did it! I hit A4 (actually slightly above) on the strobe tuner and immediately put the guitar back in its case.  I know it will be flat when I pick it up again and for all I know it may already have broken but I still count this as a victory!


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## Durero

Great! Which gage are you using?


----------



## Given To Fly

Durero said:


> Great! Which gage are you using?



A D'Addarrio .08 from the .08 - .38 pack. I haven't put it through anything real taxing yet. Then again, high tension strings don't really inspire me to attempt huge bends to begin with. I will say the top 3 strings have some nice "chime" that I've never really heard on a guitar before.......actually, thats not true. It reminds me of the intro to _New Eden_ by Animals As Leaders.


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## Winspear

Cool man, I kept my D'addario 007 at A on 25.5 for a couple of days if I remember rightly 

Guys - I've been considering grabbing a 7 string to tune to EADGBEA. I'd be using O4P strings which I've avoided before but it really is the only option in my opinion for being able to play confidently in A - and the guitar will have a trem which I wish to be able to use, so...

How's your experience with O4P A strings? I'd be getting the 007. I suppose it needs to be able to bend up to B , which it says it can tune to.


----------



## guitarfreak1387

Is it normal for a .008 tuned to g to not have sustain close to that of a .009 tuned to e?

could be a set up issue but i had not issues with the last string set when tuned B-e on my 7.


----------



## Winspear

Yes. The strings become naturally quiet pretty fast at that size. I suggest raising the pole piece to achieve equal volume on clean channel and equal drive/sustain on distortion.


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## vansinn

Given To Fly said:


> I did it! I hit A4 (actually slightly above) on the strobe tuner and immediately put the guitar back in its case.  I know it will be flat when I pick it up again and for all I know it may already have broken but I still count this as a victory!



Nice. On 25.5"? It'll be interesting to hear how long it did last..
I dropped out of reaching a useful A4, and can still only perceive shorter than 24" for this, especially as I need to bend.


----------



## Given To Fly

vansinn said:


> Nice. On 25.5"? It'll be interesting to hear how long it did last..
> I dropped out of reaching a useful A4, and can still only perceive shorter than 24" for this, especially as I need to bend.



Yep! Its still there and I've been playing it. I don't bend much though. I use vibrato and small quarter tone - half step bends but thats about it. 

As for it being useful, I would say its exactly like an 8 string guitar tuned down to F# or E: its definitely useful but you can't play it anyway you want. I have an RG2228 and its been a journey learning how to play it. The low 8th string sounds great when plucked lightly, so I pluck it lightly rather than digging into it. I think A4 will be the same way; there is too much tension to do much bending, so I won't do much bending. In short, "don't fight the guitar."


----------



## Winspear

^ Sounds like you should up the string gauge on that 2228 - stock sets are no fun at all  

I am thinking of speccing 22" for an EADGBEA 7 with regular .008.
Going to order some O4P 007's and see how they go for now. Gotta be able to bend.


----------



## Given To Fly

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ Sounds like you should up the string gauge on that 2228 - stock sets are no fun at all
> 
> I am thinking of speccing 22" for an EADGBEA 7 with regular .008.
> Going to order some O4P 007's and see how they go for now. Gotta be able to bend.



I did. I got to .011 - .94's and realized "Wow! I physically can't bend this string. Maybe I have too much tension? " I'm currently using an .82 which I like but .86 would be fine too. The lighter gauges have actually been really good for me.I had been picking way too hard and the light gauges force me to pick lighter if I want to sound good. These are all Circle K strings too.

I would buy something like that! A small 7 string classical guitar or electric guitar would so nice because small guitars are so easy to play!


----------



## Given To Fly

Just an update on the .08 at A4: It lasted until lasted night when I took it off so that I could try the .07's I ordered. Considering a broke 2 .07 will trying to tune, I'll be going back to .08's. I think .07's are just strands of long hair put in a D'Addario package. Before I took the .08 off I had been playing on it quite a bit the previous days and stopped worrying about it breaking. Maybe I got a freakishly strong .08?  I need to buy some more strings but if another .08 holds equally well, I'll consider B-E-A-D-G-B-E-A a viable 25.5" 8 string guitar tuning and argue with people on the internet about it.


----------



## Winspear

^ Results seem so inconsistent, there's the trouble. I broke a few 008s and they never made it to A, whereas the 007s did and lasted a little while. Also D'addario.


----------



## InfinityCollision

Datasheets only provide the minimum specs for a given alloy, occasionally a typical range. It's entirely possible and even somewhat likely you'll get a string that's decently above spec, but it won't be a consistent thing. Unfortunately consistency is important here, and preferably at a lifespan of at least a few weeks.


----------



## stuglue

I've had the best results with the Daddario .007, i've only had one break whilst trying to get up to high A standard, all the rest have lasted until i did something stupid like try to bend more than a half step


----------



## Winspear

So a few posts ago I asked about O4P with aims of achieving a bendable/Floyd abusable Ab4 on 25.5"
Went to buy a bunch of 007s from O4P (somewhat reluctantly, given what I've heard about him from several people) and was asked $55 for shipping 10 plain strings to the UK  It costs ~$5 to send a similar package from the UK to the US. Yeah no thanks 
I've picked up another bunch of the D'addario 007s and will see how they hold up in Ab4 on a Floyd equipped guitar. Whilst I've done a lot of Ab4 testing before, tremolo was not in the picture and I never tried it much with the 007s (which I instead focused on taking to A). I'm fairly confident, given they were the string I had the best result tuning to A with.


----------



## ixlramp

Apparently much of the cost of O4Ps is due to the clamping ball end, they found the thin plains were not secure when twist-locked. However i think they should only use the ball end clamp on the problematic strings and conventional ball and twist on everything else to reduce the cost of those strings that don't require it. A few people including myself have had strings slip out of the ball clamp before tuning to pitch, O4P was very quick to send multiple replacements free of charge from USA to UK, and it's a good idea they ask for the broken strings back so they can analyse and correct manufacture, i was happy to send them back.
I should add that Garry was always very helpful, polite and generous with replacements. His staff who tackle incoming emails were fairly useless and not knowledgeable but remember O4P make little or no profit so he probably cannot afford to have a string expert answering emails all day. Despite what i have heard from others here i prefer to judge someone primarily on how they treat me.


----------



## Winspear

I'm perfectly happy with the cost of the strings themselves, but $55 ontop for shipping of an envelope is just insane. Fair enough you have a good experience with him. I'll probably try them if the D'ads don't work out but I'm certainly going to have to email about that shipping price if I do.


----------



## ixlramp

Oh man i misread your post, I assumed $55 was the total, not the shipping, good grief that's totally unnacceptable! Back when i bought some O4P strings postage was very low, only a few dollars.
I've heard good things about the bass .007p sold by Conklin Guitars, it's designed for Eb4 on 34" = Ab4 on 25.5", also i have used this string, it lasted a month tuned to Eb4 on 35".
Often breaking mainstream strings may be cheaper than importing special strings


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## 7stg

Here is the maximum calculated scale length for A4, G4, and E4 for different strength strings. I would stick with the mid to weaker tensile strengths to determine what scale length to use and reference 80% of breaking tension and one step sharp breaking point to achieve something that will work. I put this in a nicer table format here Quest for Tone - scale length scroll down just a little to the Maximum Scale length For Given Tuning section.

Tuning to A4- 
For weaker strings, 350k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 24.879
95% of breaking tension 24.249
90% of breaking tension 23.602
85% of breaking tension 22.937
80% of breaking tension 22.252

one step sharp breaks at 22.173

For mid-weak strings, 375k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 25.752
95% of breaking tension 25.100
90% of breaking tension 24.430
85% of breaking tension 23.742
80% of breaking tension 23.033

one step sharp breaks at 22.942

For Mid strength strings, 400k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 26.606
95% of breaking tension 25.933
90% of breaking tension 25.241
85% of breaking tension 24.530
80% of breaking tension 23.797

one step sharp breaks at 23.704

For High strength strings, 450k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 28.220
95% of breaking tension 27.506
90% of breaking tension 26.762
85% of breaking tension 26.008
80% of breaking tension 25.232

one step sharp breaks at 25.132

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Tuning to G4- 
For weaker strings, 350k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 27.926
95% of breaking tension 27.218
90% of breaking tension 26.492
85% of breaking tension 25.746
80% of breaking tension 24.977

one step sharp breaks at 24.888

For mid-weak strings, 375k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 28.906
95% of breaking tension 28.174
90% of breaking tension 27.422
85% of breaking tension 26.65
80% of breaking tension 25.854

one step sharp breaks at 25.752

For Mid strength strings, 400k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 29.854
95% of breaking tension 29.098
90% of breaking tension 28.322
85% of breaking tension 27.524
80% of breaking tension 26.702

one step sharp breaks at 26.597

For High strength strings, 450k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 31.665
95% of breaking tension 30.863
90% of breaking tension 30.040
85% of breaking tension 29.193
80% of breaking tension 28.322

one step sharp breaks at 28.210

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Tuning to E4- 
For weaker strings, 350k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 33.209
95% of breaking tension 32.368
90% of breaking tension 31.505
85% of breaking tension 30.617
80% of breaking tension 29.703

one step sharp breaks at 29.586

For mid-weak strings, 375k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 34.375
95% of breaking tension 33.505
90% of breaking tension 32.611
85% of breaking tension 31.692
80% of breaking tension 30.746

one step sharp breaks at 30.625

For Mid strength strings, 400k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 35.502
95% of breaking tension 34.603
90% of breaking tension 33.680
85% of breaking tension 32.732
80% of breaking tension 31.754

one step sharp breaks at 31.629


For High strength strings, 450k tensile strength the maximum scale length is -
Broken - 37.656
95% of breaking tension 36.702
90% of breaking tension 35.724
85% of breaking tension 34.717
80% of breaking tension 33.680

one step sharp breaks at 33.548




The Math

I took the formula for string tension and the formula for the breaking point for plain steel strings and solved for Length. Then cross checked to be sure the tension I was getting with the string tension formula equaled the breaking point I calculated. I calculated for all daddario plain steel strings and use the minimum scale length of the bunch. It's easier than it sounds in excel or Libreoffice calc which is open source, free, and high quality like Linux.

=((386.4*((Ts*&#960;*(Sd/2)^2)*PBp))/(Uw*4*Hz^2))^0.5

Ts - Tensile Strength - 350000 to 450000 is common. Stay on the lower side or a scale lenght too long to work with all but the most ideal ultra strong string will be calculated.
&#960; - 3.14159265358979
Sd - String Diameter - 0.009 ect..
PBp - Percent Breaking Point - 1 equals broken and .8 is 80 percent ect..
Uw - Unit Weight - See http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
Hz - Frequency - See Frequency of Notes


----------



## vansinn

^ very interesting, thanks dude. Haven't had time to go through it in detail; looks worked-through, so.. 

You said "..for plain steel.." but which alloy?
I realize the difference between the steel i.e. D'Addairo and Ernie Ball use (and not considering stainless steel cores) are fairly small; so mainly interested..


----------



## Winspear

^ Indeed. I'm curious what strings fall under these categories - because every string I know of aside from Octave4Plus is pretty much exactly in line with your 'weak strings' findings.


----------



## 7stg

vansinn said:


> You said "..for plain steel.." but which alloy?
> I realize the difference between the steel i.e. D'Addairo and Ernie Ball use (and not considering stainless steel cores) are fairly small; so mainly interested..





EtherealEntity said:


> ^ Indeed. I'm curious what strings fall under these categories - because every string I know of aside from Octave4Plus is pretty much exactly in line with your 'weak strings' findings.



Plain steel just indicates not wound. To know what column different brands of strings fit in would require them to release the tensile strength of the alloy they use, and I have not seen this info. The tensile strength range for plain steel strings I have seen given is 350,000 to 450,000 so that's what I used. I calculated for 5 strengths on my site here Quest for Tone scroll down a little to Maximum Scale length For Given Tuning.


----------



## Winspear

Cool - yeah thought so. Well it seems they are all using weak strings then as I don't know of anyone breaking anywhere close to the tension of 26.6". Your higher range seems in line with what O4P say is possible with their strings. The outside factors such as tuner, bridge, ballend, nut, break angles etc all have a detrimental effect too, lowering the results further than the simple 'actual tension'.

I haven't tried to compare the new tougher Ernie Ball plains I heard about but I doubt they are going down to 007 with those


----------



## InfinityCollision

I'm not convinced EB's M-steel line will ever see release at this point.


----------



## Guitarguy77

I got my octave g string on 12 string up to A4 again. So far it's holding up for three hours. Just did some gentle plucking. I'm using an ernie ball 9. Seems like a lot of members have had a lot of success with 9's. The scale length is 25 inches.


----------



## insanebassninja

Garry Goodman said:


> Thanks for posting this! Please PM me.
> 
> You represent the feelings of about 450 Octave4Plus customers, some of which are iconic guitarists.
> Octave4Plus were the first dedicated A4 and B4 strings.
> 
> They are always being improved.
> 
> Visit the Octave4Plus Facebook page to see how the A4 strings and B4 strings tune to pitch in under 1 minute on a Strat copy and under 2 minutes on the Oakland Axe Factory 10-string.
> 
> The new .0055 can bend pitch up a minor 3rd. Video coming soon.



Am thinking about ordering one of your strings. do you have .05 out yet for turn body 29.5" string yet? I want to tune to High A with my 29" tru body guitar.


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## InfinityCollision

Garry hasn't posted here in over two years. You actually just quoted his last post.


----------



## insanebassninja

InfinityCollision said:


> Garry hasn't posted here in over two years. You actually just quoted his last post.



0ops...


----------



## 7stg

insanebassninja said:


> I want to tune to High A with my 29" tru body guitar.



Good luck with that. 

A 29.4 inch scale is great for standard tuning and really helps the low notes be clear and tight, but to tune a 29.4 inch scale to high A4 is asking for frustration. It's over an inch past the calculated breaking point for really strong strings. Plenty before have posted the difficulties they've had even with a 27 inch scale. Ultimately going with thinner strings runs out of room as the string will break before it gets to a reasonable tension. 

If you are set on uptuning to high A4 this - Agile Pendulum Pro 82427 EB CA Nat Mah - RondoMusic.com or this - Dean USA Rusty Cooley Signature RC8FF FANNED FRET "Red Xenocide" Graphic 8-String Electric Guitar are really your only production level options that will give success.


Here is the breaking point for very high strength - 450,000 tensile strength strings. This does not take into account anything along the string that would weaken it like bends or sharp points. 

string diameter - breaking point (lbs)
0.005 - 8.835
0.0055 - 10.691
0.006 - 12.723
0.0065 - 14.932
0.007 - 17.318
0.0075 - 19.880
0.008 - 22.619
0.0085 - 25.535
0.009 - 28.627
0.0095 - 31.896
0.01 - 35.342
0.0105 - 38.965
0.011 - 42.764
0.0115 - 46.741
0.012 - 50.893


----------



## guitarfreak1387

anyone try and mess around with getting a high A with the new D'addario nyxl's?

Just seen an add for them in a magazine and they say they have a higher breaking point that regular strings. they claim that with their .010 they can get to a G#. looked them up on youtube to see if D'addario put any videos up and they had some stuff on them. one was of them taking 3 of their string and 3 competitors strings and taking them from e to g#. their 3 still lasted after the others had failed. (im excited lol)

I can only imagine that a .009 or .008 could reach a manageable and longer lasting high a.


----------



## shikamaru

guitarfreak1387 said:


> anyone try and mess around with getting a high A with the new D'addario nyxl's?
> 
> Just seen an add for them in a magazine and they say they have a higher breaking point that regular strings. they claim that with their .010 they can get to a G#. looked them up on youtube to see if D'addario put any videos up and they had some stuff on them. one was of them taking 3 of their string and 3 competitors strings and taking them from e to g#. their 3 still lasted after the others had failed. (im excited lol)
> 
> I can only imagine that a .009 or .008 could reach a manageable and longer lasting high a.



Interesting ! However at the moment you cant get single nyxl strings, only sets of 9-42 and 10-46 (no balanced tension ). I think they will first try to see if people get them before expanding their range


----------



## guitarfreak1387

im going to be on the look out for them and see what i can come up with. i cant find anything about the breaking point of the .009's, everything i see is for the .10's. the way i see it, if their .010 can actually go up to 35lbs of tension before it snaps, the .009 should be able to get up to high a even if it will be a slightly weaker string.


----------



## Explorer

Having gone through my period of buying lots of single strings and experimenting with this, I'm excited that someone is willing to step up and do the experimenting with the new materials. 

I look forward to reading where this leads!


----------



## InfinityCollision

guitarfreak1387 said:


> im going to be on the look out for them and see what i can come up with. i cant find anything about the breaking point of the .009's, everything i see is for the .10's. the way i see it, if their .010 can actually go up to 35lbs of tension before it snaps, the .009 should be able to get up to high a even if it will be a slightly weaker string.



Gauge doesn't matter for breakage, at least not with plain strings. A slightly thicker gauge might last a tiny bit longer if pushed to just below its breaking point, but that's it.


----------



## AxeHappy

I don't know about that. On my 24" acoustic 7 string I experimented quite a bit with string gauge and 8 breaks a hell of a lot less than 9 and 10 was not going to happen with any kind of regularity.


----------



## InfinityCollision

Diameter isn't a relevant property as I understand the math, which I broke down earlier in the thread. The critical parameters are tensile strength, density, frequency, and length. You would have been near or above yield strength for those strings though, not at ultimate tensile strength, so I guess it becomes a question of how diameter might factor into plastic deformation prior to other forms of material wear.

For what it's worth your experience runs counter to other testimony I've read here, which is what I based my theory for longevity on. I can't really speak to it either way; frankly strings that break with any regularity fall outside my desired criteria so it's not an area I've investigated with any great interest.


----------



## Explorer

At 24" for A4, you're just .059" away from the 23.941" scale length which would be *kinda* successful. It's still not idea, and prone to breakage, but not constantly on the edge like if you were tuning to A#4, the equivalent of A4 at 25.5".


----------



## DreamError

Someone on The Gear Page claimed to tune their first string to A with a Reverend Willy's set (7s), and said it didn't brea.

"It's the only .007 gauge non-custom I've found that I can tune to High A and not break."

But these maths are making me think it didn't last (and they gave no details, or came back later to say it was still going), and it likely won't be an option for the 27" Ibanez I have coming anyway.

But perhaps a viable option for 25.5" or multiscale 8 strings? They were last active February of this year, so I sent them a PM to see if they can give me information on how long the Rev Willy .007 lasted, guitar used, etc.


----------



## DreamError

I heard back from him. Basically along the same lines as the OctavePlus stuff, make sure the nut is nice and smooth, etc and "work into bends slowly to 'wake up' the newly stretched strings" and he claims to get them to last as long as a .007 tuned to E. And it was a 25.5" Tele.

He also says "The point is you shouldn't be doing this but if you do, this is the string that will do it best."

And that it all depends on expectations and how much you need to bend.

Of course, how long does the .007 last tuned to E? >.>

I have a pack of these strings, may have to get my S1 setup for 7-38 in E and see.


----------



## Explorer

On that TGP topic, he had the Rev. Willy's on for one day before deciding to switch to other strings.

Let us know how it goes when you buy a set!


----------



## DreamError

Explorer said:


> On that TGP topic, he had the Rev. Willy's on for one day before deciding to switch to other strings.
> 
> Let us know how it goes when you buy a set!



I don't remember seeing that at all, maybe it was a different thread or person? This guy seemed to like it (TresGatos).

Might be okay on my 25.5" six, but I doubt I will be able to use the trem much before snapping it if bending it is iffy. 

I already own the strings, and the ZR trem seems pretty good about tension adjustment (I tuned half a step flat and it didn't move, stayed nice and level, and it has a handy knob to adjust the trem springs). I suppose I can give it a go tonight and see what happens 

I expect to be taking them off shortly after I snap the .007 and restringing with some super slinkies I have laying around for the next string change >.>

But being a locking nut, at least it's smooth! <.<

**edit** seems I get one shot at this, I don't see singles of the Rev Willy's .007s for sale anywhere (I know Dunlop makes them), and I'm probably not buying several sets to see if it'll work (nobody local sells them). Slow and steady, slow and steady...


----------



## Explorer

After starting that topic, the very next day the same user said he was over them. 

They're about $5 a set at Strings by Mail and Strings and Beyond, a little less than trying a single O4+ string. 

Since I'm tuned to B4 using the o4+ strings, I don't have a reason to try for a lower pitch, but I am curious about whether or not these work.


----------



## DreamError

As expected, broken. I was tuning it really slowly, too; I almost made it to G# though, maybe a few cents off. The rest of the guitar is tuned ADGCE until I restring it lol. I swapped a string out with some Boomers I had laying around, was going for the whole guitar pitched up.

30w, 20w, 16p, 11p, 9p, 7p (dropped the Willy's .038 for the .016 on the 4th string)

tension calculations showed that to be quite a balanced set other than the 7, but with 14.1lbs (89% of breaking point according to the calc... >.> ) the set as a whole should be under a set of 9s tuned to E. Kinda figured it was a doomed effort when I saw that number.

Ah well, 'twas fun. I had issues just getting the 7 to seat into the saddle properly so I could lock it down  I may try again once I have another guitar to experiment on, give it a while at various pitches to see if I can get to A4 with it that way.

I should be able to tune my 8 string up a bit when I get it, to F# with a .007 easily when I get it, though F would be better for it. Time to go do more maths.

As an aside, we could easily get one of those 22.2" scale Ibanez kiddy guitars to A4 with a 7 lol.


----------



## vansinn

Yeps, reliable A4 means 23"-23.5" or so, especially if bending is wanted.
25" is still too long (from experience); 24" should just do it, so oh well, just wire up a Fender Jaguar for a high fifth tuning


----------



## InfinityCollision

With some of these things, I have to wonder how much care is put into ensuring the string has the gentlest possible path from ball end through the tuning peg. Tom Lippincott once commented that he couldn't safely detune and retune the high A on his Conklin - it would consistently break. Normal retuning processes were fine though. This was after a year of owning the instrument, which has a 23.625" treble scale. You'd think that scale would be reasonably safe; perhaps the break angle on the string-through bridge contributed, or the path through the tuning peg was too severe? Explorer's heat-shrink tubing is a pretty good idea for helping with this, especially at the tuner, though steps can be taken to either use hardware that is better suited to such applications or to modify existing hardware if so desired.


----------



## Explorer

InfinityCollision said:


> Explorer's heat-shrink tubing is a pretty good idea for helping with this, especially at the tuner, though steps can be taken to either use hardware that is better suited to such applications or to modify existing hardware if so desired.



This is an idea I am greatly interested in.

I figured that, even after I had sanded all possible points which could kink or nick the string, the heat-shrink tubing would be softer and would be the first thing damaged, leaving the string itself untouched.

You mention hardware which is better suited for this application, as well as mods for existing hardware. 

Could you give the details on both?


----------



## InfinityCollision

Sure, a few quick examples:

-Headless hardware is fairly easy on strings by default. Relatively low break angles, no other sharp turns to speak of, very small string lengths outside the sounding area.
-Top loading bridges may offer some small amount of relief vs string through, but this should be very minor if you've prepped your saddles appropriately.
-The main idea I had in mind for modification is rounding off the string path at the tuner. The typical kink in the string at the tuning peg hole represents a point of potential weakness. A more gentle path for the string should decrease the likelihood of the string breaking at the tuner.


----------



## Hollowway

DreamError said:


> Someone on The Gear Page claimed to tune their first string to A with a Reverend Willy's set (7s), and said it didn't brea.



I see what you did there.  Well played, DreamError, well played. 


On my OAF 10 Tom made the high A graphtech saddle top loading. He did it by putting a little brass cap on it that was held in place by the screw on the saddle. That way the ball end sat right there and went straight out of the saddle, with no angles coming through the body, etc. Mine all still broke at the ball, but I think I just had a bad batch because the string pulled out of the ball part when I was tuning it. Still, the concept of putting that cap on was genius.


----------



## guitarfreak1387

still trying to find a store that has the nyxl's locally. trying to avoid going online to get them.

on the other hand the .08's that i have on my 1527 tuned to g are still going strong. first one i put on is still on and is in good shape. been a tad over a month now.


----------



## Explorer

A little past G# is around the breaking point. You can get to G easily without breakage.


----------



## vansinn

Explorer said:


> A little past G# is around the breaking point. You can get to G easily without breakage.



Exactly match my experiences too..
Actually, when tuned to G4#, bending a full step can be done on a mere 25" scale; however, tuned to A4 (on same scale) won't take bends too lightly..

In other words: spanking with care is ok, but sustained pain isn't


----------



## stuglue

Do you think it would be feasible to tune a .007 to high G on an ibanez rg8?
its a 27 inch scale length


----------



## InfinityCollision

String gauge doesn't matter. 27" G is exactly one fret back from 25.5" G#, so the above posts should answer your question.


----------



## stuglue

Hi guys, just thought i'd feedback on stringing up my Ibanez RG8
Last night i tuned it up (A,D,G,C,F,A,D,G), this morning I thought "sod it, lets see if i can tune to regular Eb, anyway took all the strings up an extra half step (Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Bb,Eb,Ab) and with no problems got high Ab. Can't see it going to A standard, not at this scale length.


----------



## InfinityCollision

Post results again after a week of regular use. You're not necessarily going to snap the string immediately, but don't expect the string to last as long as the others.


----------



## Winspear

Aye, it's not that A hasn't been reached on standard scale (=G# @ 27) Did it for a few days myself. But it's by no means seriously useable.


----------



## stuglue

Tried to get up to A standard this afternoon but the string snapped. Ab is fine no higher


----------



## Explorer

I think this topic has been great so far. It's an idea which occurs to a lot of people, and it's nice to have all these attempts in one place.


----------



## vansinn

For sure it's great with all this feedback.
Now, if only someone would *make us 007, 0075, 008, 0085, 009 strings in an alloy that likes being tensioned up*, we'd be set for some interesting 9-string tunings.. 

This (plus unemployment) is what's holding me off the nine string path - and even keeping me on F4#/G4 tunings on my 8'er 

As someone said it:
_We can send a man to the moon, but cannot make a simple A4 string_
(disregarding flags waving in vacuum)


And I still believe one the mods should sticky this thread, so the string manufacturers could more easily spot our interests in, and needs for, strings for high tunings..


----------



## yingmin

I've been thinking lately about attempting an all-fifths tuning from C2-B4, so that I'd have essentially an octave mandolin with one low and one high string. I was planning to get something like a Jaguar for this purpose, but after reading through this thread, I'm not sure even that would work.


----------



## Explorer

yingmin said:


> I've been thinking lately about attempting an all-fifths tuning from C2-B4, so that I'd have essentially an octave mandolin with one low and one high string. I was planning to get something like a Jaguar for this purpose, but after reading through this thread, I'm not sure even that would work.



It has worked for me, and brilliantly, for almost 5 years so far.

From this topic:



Explorer said:


> In the '80s, I had worked in a music store which had many fifth-tuned instruments. I tried to retune a guitar to full fifths, but starting with a high E4 meant the bottom course was F1, which was too floppy for an acoustic guitar. (There weren't the huge amount of string choices as there are now, but it was clear that the body wasn't large enough to move enough air to get good tone that low.) Attempts to tune the high string to B4 failed, as a 25.5" string will pop when you get to around G#4; thinner and it's not strong enough, thicker and it has the strength... but requires so much more tension that it still breaks.
> 
> (Incidentally, Bob Fripp was living in the same general area, and apparently decided to make a virtue of necessity. Instead of going for full fifths, he went with a crippled fifths tuning, keeping the high course to G4, a minor third above the E4. I've been waiting for over twenty years for someone to leverage that top string to do something amazing, but at this point I've decided that it was just a compromise which didn't yield any results beyond having mostly fifths. Bob Fripp did wind up ordering the Ovation guitars he used in his courses from a folk music store a little further north, where they stocked quite a few of the mando family instruments, and where he had quite a bit of contact with that music scene.)
> 
> Twenty years later, I heard of a bass player who had decided to develop a string which could tune higher than a normal steel string. I did some calculations, and decided to buy a few to see if full fifths was now achieveable. The beater guitar worked, and I started looking in earnest for an acoustic guitar which would give me the doubled strings and body tone of a bouzouki or mando instrument.
> 
> I figured that most mando family instruments didn't have much body to them, and so I felt that an Ovation shallow bowlback would be the best choice. I almost went with a Douglas bowlback 12-string, as it was a bit cheaper, but snagged an inexpensive Ovation on Ebay.
> 
> (Incidentally, this was what led to me finding the Rondo Music website, where I first saw an eight-string guitar, the Intrepid Pro. I must have come in during one of the ordering periods, although it had closed when I went back. Still, that was what had me dig a bit more, and eventually led me to sevenstring.org, and to all the informative threads on Agile guitars and other eight-strings. I haven't thought about all that for a while, but even my FM-408 was purchased because of info I found on SS.org... which I found because of my obsession with full fifths.)
> 
> Once I had the Ovation, I did the string calculations, purchased a bunch of bulk strings, and tuned it up. I originally strung it for the high course to be a duplicate E4, so that I wasn't breaking strings from messing around. The scale length turned out to be a little shorter than the two six-strings I now had in full fifths, and so I had to go a little heavier at the bottom end. Once I knew I had the gauges to my satisfaction, I ordered more strings from O4+ for the high B4, and gave the guitar to my tech. She thought the idea was completely out of the norm, and loved the chance to do it.
> 
> Once the slots in the nut had been widened for unison strings (normally 12-strings have octave tuning at the bottom), the saddle intonation corrected and the relief and action set up, I took the instrument and replaced the top two strings. I hadn't wanted to give the strings over, as they cost $5 a pop, and if they were going to break, I'd rather not have hard feelings about someone else breaking them. *laugh*
> 
> The tuning held, and I now had a 12-string which would do what I wanted acoustically. Behold!















> I know, it looks just like a 12-string. However, it has a range of almost five octaves, and is versatile.
> 
> In addition to this instrument, I later took the original beater guitar (a Joshua AE-400) to my tech, and as it had only cost $30 to begin with, I had her set it up. I invested an additional $30 in a raised abalone soundhole rosette, like on some Ovation guitars, which I found on eBay. (I wish I could find another, but maybe that's like lightning striking twice.) She did some fretwork, replaced the plastic dots with abalone, and now it is my favorite guitar when I have to grab one for acoustic work. I run the signal through a Korg PX4A, which has 12-string modeling and pitch shifting available. (By setting the pitch shift to zero, one gets a slight delay, a time shift smaller than most delays, and thus the subtle chorusing of a double-strung instrument.) By the use of a Danelectro Honeytone amp, placed unobtrusively and concealed under cloth, the guitar is subtly reinforced, but with the shimmering sound of doubled strings. It's interesting to see folks try to figure out why the instrument sounds the way it does.
> 
> Getting back to the mandophone, it does what it does much more inexpensively than any mandocello on the market (normally costing much more than US$2K, new or used). Having six courses gets me more range than a limited four-course instrument, and the Dunlop Victor capo I use at the fifth fret is so unobtrusive (most capos being chunky and hard to fret against) that it's like playing a long-scale mandolin with a little more body to the sound.
> 
> Mandocellos are interesting, but too rich for my blood. I now have instruments that do more for less money, and that's a good thing.



I'm still on the first pair of O4+ strings. 

Capoing at the fifth fret gets you the high mandolin E5 on the top course, and a mandola on the inner four courses. I'm still extremely happy using this instrument for both cittern/bouzouki and mandolin/mandola purposes.


----------



## yingmin

Which strings do you use for the high B?


----------



## stuglue

Update. After breaking the .007 whilst trying to get to high A standard on a 27" scale ibanez I decided that I'd try a gauge .008 the good news is that they can easily get up to Ab. I used a daddario to get there


----------



## InfinityCollision

You still haven't left it on for any significant length of time. Metal doesn't just go from "fine" to "broken", there's a tension level between the two wherein the material is compromised and deforms plastically.

Think about it. Why would this thread be full of stories of failure and wishes for <24" scale guitars if Ab4 at 27", which translates to A4 at 25.5", was so trivial with off-the-shelf strings?


----------



## stuglue

maybe so, but my ESP 208 has had a Dadarrio .007 tuned up to A standard on it for over 9 months and its going strong.


----------



## Explorer

yingmin said:


> Which strings do you use for the high B?



Octave 4 Plus, the only strings I'm aware of which work for A4 and B4 at 25.5".


----------



## yingmin

I meant which gauges, but I wouldn't be attempting it at 25.5" anyway. I'd be using it at no longer than 24.75", and hopefully 24".


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## Explorer

Ah. I think they're the Octave 4 Plus .007.

In case anyone is coming in late to the party and believes I'm using a normal string, I'm not. No other strings are capable of getting to A4 and B4 at 25.5" for a prolonged period, like the several years for this particular pair of 25.5" B4 strings.


----------



## CrazyDean

I just bought the Sherman that's been plaguing my thoughts, and I can finally make a serious attempt at A4. I tried once before using a D'addario .007 on an Ibanez Universe, and it worked...at first. I noticed that the thinness of the string was unkind to my saddle block. The string stayed in tune for a while, but there was no bending past 1/2 step. Eventually, it broke while I was tuning, and I couldn't seem to get the next two replacements to tune without breaking.

Anyway, I had a couple questions:
Wasn't there a guy on here selling .006 strings? Do/did they work?

Also, what is the highest someone on here has tuned on a guitar? Just curious as to what is possible.


----------



## Explorer

CrazyDean, with a normal string, you can only get close to G#4 at 25.5". That's just material science.

The highest I've gotten at 25.5" is B4 using the special strings from Octave 4 Plus.


----------



## Winspear

I've gotten to A with a normal 007 but yeah the theoretical breaking point is just before A I believe. It did last a couple of days. Tuning above G# on 25.5 is not practical without O4P strings. G is safe. G# is fairly safe on 24.75. So you can tune to A safely with normal strings on ~23.5, with the limit being about 24". 
I think I know the Sherman you mean. The trans black one with the Kahler? I remember the dude posting a little about the high string and the tremolo I think..some problems..he never came back with more info which was a shame as I was very curious at the time.


----------



## AxeHappy

Highest I've managed is A4 with .008" at 24" scale length. 

And 1/2 bends are the most I would consider, but typically I avoid them. 

For a seriously doing it I would recommend 23.5" scale length as a max. 23" would probably be safer.


----------



## CrazyDean

Ethereal, you are correct. I bought the trans black Sherman with the Kahler and 22.75" to 25" fan. I was sent some .009's with the guitar, so I tried them first just to put some tension on the neck and get it playable until I was able to get something else on there. It felt good at F#, so that's where I left it. 

When my .008's came in, I wanted to see where the 9 would break. I managed to get it to A, but decided to stop there due to the very high tension. 

With the 8 on, I tried immediately to tune it to A, but it failed around G#. Since I have 10 of these .008, I am going to keep trying, but this time I will tune to G and let it set then to G# and so on. Even if I can get it to A4, I will not be keeping the .008 as the tension is going to be quite high and I doubt the string's strength when using the vibrato and bending.

I have some .007's on order. I expect them to work, but I am afraid the tension might be too low for my feel. The calculated tension is 11.25 lbs.

The guitar itself is great. I have yet to encounter any problems with the strings rolling off the saddles. However, when the guitar came, every string was nearly touching the fretboard. I have since raised the string height of each string, and it plays great.


----------



## guitarfreak1387

so i managed to find some time and get down to my local music shop in town. should have a set of the D'addario NYXl's here soon. just waiting for them to get them and they will be mine.


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## guitarfreak1387

So i finally had a day off from work and went down to the local store i go to now. they only had a set left of each 9's and 10's and apparently people have been loving them in general. Will be throwing these babies on at some point soon when i figure out im going to do with them.


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## crg123

Testing out a .106( bass B) through .008 high g Kalium set on my 27-30 scale 10 OAF string, formerly Hollowways. Wish me luck! I bought 5 .008s so hopefully I can get one of them to work. I'll start off slow and work my way up throughout the next few days. I'm a bit nervous the .106 won't fit since the string currently on it is. .90 but we'll just have to find out I guess 

*Edit!! Just realized this was my 2000th post! I've been here for 3.5 years now. How appropriate that I'm talking about 10 strings since I still only played 6 string when I first joined. See what you guys have done to me!?!  Cheers.*


----------



## Explorer

So, at 27:... that's a breaking pitch of just past G4, right?

What are you aiming for?


----------



## crg123

Edit: Double post.


----------



## crg123

Basically my tuning goal is BEADGCFadg. I coordinated with Skip and Chris of Kalium strings/ Circle K on this set. This is not my guitar, I'm borrowing it from a friend while he's away on a study abroad in Valencia. This is purely an experiment on my part, and also he REALLY needed a string change. 

.008 - g
.011 - d
.014 - a
.018 - F
.025 - C
.033 - G
.045 - D
.061 - A
.082 - E
.106 - B

If the G4 doesn't work I'll keep it at F#, if that doesn't work then F. I don't mind if it fails. The Low B sounds awesome on the 30 scale part of the fan and the F (What its at today, I'll slowly raise tension) doesn't have that much tension on it at all. (I don't know if this matters but I don't plan on bending it, I'm using it for chords)

Here's a pic if you guys are interested:






and an album if you're more interested: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157647717670342/

As much as it being distorted is fun, I'm having alot more of a creative break through using a Strymon Big Sky Patch I made on my Axe FX II

Edit: I actually really like the high F#, if the G doesn't work I think I could easily incorporate the F# into my chording


----------



## Explorer

I seem to remember that bridge with the cover on the high string bridge. Isn't that already an O4+ string at the top?


----------



## crg123

The High A4 never held for Josh he ran out of them from them breaking, Hollowway had trouble too if I recall correctly... These are new strings I put on there since the other strings were so dead sounding. I couldn't afford to budget the O4P pricing since I'm only using this for three months so I figured I'd give this a shot since G4 wasn't as hard to achieve as a4 (hence the whole guitar being tuned down a step) It works well, the new strings really brought the guitar back to life and I usually hate the sound of new strings.

I'm not sure if theres anything different about my high .008 compared to other Kalium strings (I doubt it) but skip said that with his strings G4 shouldn't be an issue at 27" Scale with this string. Seems as though he was right, although I'll give it a few days. Like I said if it doesn't work the F# still works well for the chords I'm experimenting with.

P.s. I'm not using the metal piece you're referring too since I'm threading it through the body like normal (figured I'd try this first). If that doesn't work I'll try it the way tom designed it where it sits in the saddle with the metal piece holding it there.


----------



## Winspear

Yeah it should hold. Don't try bending it though  I've barely broken any G#s on my 24.75. 25.5 isn't much worse and is equal tension to your 27 G.


----------



## crg123

So far so good. The tension doesn't seem that bad, I'm actually able to bend alittle and not feel afraid


----------



## focusbob

Ive been messing around with a nyxl .007 for high ab on a 27" scale, and it seems more durable than the standard .007 d'addario I tried previously. Anyone else messing around with nyxl for tuning up?


----------



## vansinn

Ab @ 27" is quite a decent result, I dare say.

How long does each of those NYXL 007's last you?
Where do they break - random places or same spot?
How far and often do you bend?
On which guitar?

I intend to use the 008's for my combined low/mid C# / high F# tuning on 26.5" - I bend a lot, and they should take stretches better..
I'll grab some 007's as well for trying out how the fare on A4 on my 25" Dan Armstrong.


----------



## InfinityCollision

Also curious about the nyxl's. Shame about D'addario gouging prices on singles, but if it means I can tune my Agile to A4...


----------



## focusbob

Hey guys,

It's been maybe 10 days with nyxl .007 at ab on 27" scale (it's an rg8). I've been half step bending at least a couple times per day to give the string a semblance of a test, haven't been playing it a ton due to life. I had previously only tried one .007 and one .008 d'addario standard plain (and only one nyxl, so this is meant to be more for spurring others to test as opposed to anything definitive). The .008 broke easiest, then the standard .007 and the nyxl hasn't broken yet. The strings that have broke have broken during a bend along the length of the string. I used abrasive cord to smooth the tuner and nut, the saddles are graph tech string savers. The only other impression I can give is that the nyxl "feels" a little different, like when I bend it a semitone it still feels like it has a little bit of flex in it, whereas the standard strings, when I bent them it felt very tight as though it were about to snap. 

My ambition at the moment is to see if I can get something stable going with drop ab 7 string tuning + high ab on a 25.5" 8 string (ltd) that I don't yet have and am trying to decide whether to buy one of those or wait 6 months to see if Kurt stocks active mount 82427s with 24.5" instead of 24.75" on top (right now he only has passive mount, 24.75" on top); I don't think a4 will be stable at 24.5" either, so I'm only aspiring to ab, but all things being equal I'd rather have the ltd because of build quality considerations; so if I can safely pull of ab on 25.5" scale, I'll probably go for the ltd (h308). Before I do anything, next, I'll be trying a .007 and .008 on my 25.5" 7 string for high ab. Wish I would have bought more of them in retrospect...

Hope others give the nyxls a try for tuning up and I'll report back.


----------



## InfinityCollision

If Ab4 is stable at 27" then A4 should be stable at 25.5".

I think I'm going to go for it... getting a proper A1 string for my acoustic has been an absolutely maddening experience, getting rid of that complication by tuning up to B1-A4 will offset the increase in price as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## focusbob

I still wouldn't call it stable... jury's out, need more data!


----------



## stuglue

I can only get G4 on my Ibanez RG8L 27 inch scale.
I can get A standard on my ESP 208 and it's stable, I just don't bend the string.


----------



## focusbob

Another week or so, still going strong with the same testing regimen noted above @ab 27" w/nyxl .007, just checking in


----------



## NcLean

A4 reports:

Guitar: Piece of &$# dreadnaught wot I bought from Cheapo-mart for under $50, no-name tuners, plastic bridge and nut with burrs etc etc. 25.5" scale

String: Savarez Alliance KF47A - .47 mm / 0.0185 inches, Single String, chopped in half (they come in 2 metre lengths)
Lasted: months at a time. 

Wrapped string around a metal ball and tied a knot

Procedure: tuning up over a day or two

Can't bend the damn things, it doesn't feel right.
Have accidentally tuned up above B4

I've also used carbon strings on a very nice Emerald, but didn't get the tone I was after.

N.B. the point of this is that carbon strings are very effective at getting higher tunings. This won't help most electric requirements, unless you decide to use optical pickups or something.


----------



## Roland777

How much bending would you have to spare with a D'Addario .007 at "25 tuned to G?


----------



## InfinityCollision

Normal D'addario? Half step is fine, full step likely exceeds yield strength but might not result in an instant break.


----------



## Winspear

^ Seconded. Half step is pushing it close and you'll need any sharp guitar parts taken care of, and don't pick too hard. It should be safe enough then.
I'd recommend the 008 - remember the extra strength is proportional to the extra tension so it wont change the note it breaks at, but it will give you more strength in terms of picking etc. It's also a very reasonable tension (comparable to a 9.5 E)


----------



## vansinn

Roland777 said:


> How much bending would you have to spare with a D'Addario .007 at "25 tuned to G?



At 25" (old Dan -Armstrong) I could bend an ordinary 008 tuned to A4 a full stop.
As stated in my top post, it lasted a week, so while bends could be done, it was clearly beyond normal use and strength and fully useless 

I've had 008 XL's tuned to G4 at 26.5" (Riot 8), and one stop bending didn't cause premature breaks, though it did get a lot harder to bend with grace.

G4 at 25" shouldn't give you any problems, you might even prefer a 0085, and do give the new NYXL's a test drive as they reportedly works even better.


----------



## focusbob

I've since had a regular old .008 d'addario on my 27" guitar tuned to g# with half step bends no problem. Just a guess, but I think my string saver saddles along with treating the tuner and nut with abrasive cord may be the secret to my success.


----------



## metaljon

Just got an Agile Pendulum Pro 82427 (24 3/4 - 27") and I have it tuned to A standard, so that's a G4 for the first string, which is a D'Addario .0085". So far it's working fine. I've done half step bends, but haven't had the courage to go for a full step. I'm afraid that would bring it too close to the breaking tension.

I really wanted to go A4, but it just didn't seem possible, aside from O4P. I actually took the time to email Ernie Ball asking them to make their M-Steel plain strings available as singles. If their claimed tensile strength of 460 kPa is true, you could get to A4, but whole step bends would still be very iffy.


----------



## focusbob

Hi fellow uptuners, some exciting news! I just learned oakland axe factory will be offering their ss8 model (pictured) with a 22.5" - 26.5" fan (perpendicular at the 9th fret)! Best part, no upcharge for this option from their standard model. 1800-1900$ depending on whether you want a radiused top. The picture has some upgrades (e.g., flame top) so that would raise the price some. Ordering is not available yet but will be soon. Dont think ill be able to resist this one...


----------



## metaljon

focusbob said:


> Hi fellow uptuners, some exciting news! I just learned oakland axe factory will be offering their ss8 model (pictured) with a 22.5" - 26.5" fan (perpendicular at the 9th fret)! Best part, no upcharge for this option from their standard model. 1800-1900$ depending on whether you want a radiused top. The picture has some upgrades (e.g., flame top) so that would raise the price some. Ordering is not available yet but will be soon. Dont think ill be able to resist this one...


That's phenomenal, and exactly what I've been looking for. I'll be putting in an order for one of those as soon as they start taking them.


----------



## SilentCartographer

not to sound like a complete n00b, but please do explain what A4 means.. is this higher than standard tuning?


----------



## octatoan

Yes. Fifth fret on your high E (which is an E3) is called A4. they're talking about guitars tuned with an extra A string above the high E, for things like BEADGBEA.


----------



## SilentCartographer

aahhh thanks for clearing that up, I did assume as much but never too certain. Does an ERG accomodate higher tunings better then a standard scale?


----------



## InfinityCollision

If the ERG has a shorter than normal treble scale, yes. At 25.5" G4 is about as high as you can safely go with a standard string, though you can potentially get a bit higher with care... longer scale lengths reduce how high you can go proportionately, while shorter scales have the opposite effect. Your other option is specialized strings - in the past Octave 4 Plus was basically our only option in that regard, though new strings such as D'addario's NYXL strings have opened that market up somewhat if that's your method of choice.

A4 denotes a pitch based on standard Western pitch notation, in which C4 (first fret B string) is middle C on a piano. The lowest string on a standard tuned 6-string is E2, the B below that is B1, F# below that is F#1, etc. A4 is also sometimes referred to here as A440, because Western music often (in recent years at least, though concert pitch is not completely standardized) places that note at 440Hz.

I should be moving forward with a 23.5"-26.5" 8 string build soon. Stay tuned


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## metaljon

InfinityCollision said:


> I should be moving forward with a 23.5"-26.5" 8 string build soon. Stay tuned


Are you building that yourself or having it built? Recently, I've been considering something at that exact scale. Definitely let us know how it turns out.


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## InfinityCollision

Commissioned, I wouldn't dare attempt a build like this one  I'll post more (if not a full build thread) if everything goes as planned.


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## bostjan

focusbob said:


> Hi fellow uptuners, some exciting news! I just learned oakland axe factory will be offering their ss8 model (pictured) with a 22.5" - 26.5" fan (perpendicular at the 9th fret)! Best part, no upcharge for this option from their standard model. 1800-1900$ depending on whether you want a radiused top. The picture has some upgrades (e.g., flame top) so that would raise the price some. Ordering is not available yet but will be soon. Dont think ill be able to resist this one...



22.5? Wow, that's short. Also, a 4" delta!? I'd be happy to try it out, but I'm wondering why not 23.5" instead, since it seems to be perfectly viable for A4. Will 22.5" get you up to Bb?


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## yingmin

bostjan said:


> 22.5? Wow, that's short. Also, a 4" delta!? I'd be happy to try it out, but I'm wondering why not 23.5" instead, since it seems to be perfectly viable for A4. Will 22.5" get you up to Bb?



I was messing around with a vintage Duo Sonic (22.5") one day and got it tuned up in all fifths, with a high B.


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## bostjan

yingmin said:


> I was messing around with a vintage Duo Sonic (22.5") one day and got it tuned up in all fifths, with a high B.



A B at 22.5" is very nearly the same tension as an A at 25.5". Which string did you use? Is it O4P?

Wait, English B or German B? 

Anyway, that's pretty cool. A six string in all fifths, like a celloblaster with an extra high string, would be a lot of fun to play.

You could take a multiscale like this down to low F if it was a seven string in all fifths. That's be a very impressive range.


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## Explorer

SilentCartographer said:


> Does an ERG accomodate higher tunings better then a standard scale?



It's not dependent on whether the instrument is an ERG. It's about the scale length for the high string.

At 25.5", a string will break at a little higher than G#4.
At 24.4", it will break a bit higher than A4.
At 22.7", it will break a bit higher than A#4.
And at 21.4", it will break a bit higher than B4. 

This topic has a lot of stories about people managing to get a string to A4 at 25.5", but that string doesn't last long before breaking. B4 at 22.5 won't last for long. 

----

The reason I actually looked up this topic is that I've been using the same plain strings on my 12-string full-fifths-tuned mandophone (low to high CGDAEB) since I first posted about it here in 2009. I've changed the PB-wound strings a few times, but had decided to leave the plains alone, since I wanted to get my money's worth out of the Octave 4 Plus high B4 strings.

And now, after more than 5 years of regular use, one of the Octave 4 Plus strings finally broke. 

I don't bend those strings, as that's not very commonly done on mandolin, mandola, octave mandolin, cittern or mandocello. Still, given the short periods which others have reported in their experiments, I'm extremely happy with how durable O4+ strings have been. 

What's funny is that I don't keep the O4+ strings in the wooden box where my other singles and sets are. I haven't had to keep them handy, so now I have to remember where I put them....


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## bostjan

@Explorer: Those stat's seem to be the general consensus. I still disagree, though, and I don't know why this is widely reported here.

I've had high A4's on a few of my sevens before, and still have one strung up to A4, using a 0.008" at 25.5" The string breaks every so often, but I just replace it.

Also, no one has addressed what I pointed out years ago, the fact that pedal steel guitars can be found in scale lengths 25-25.5" and yet they come standard with a G#4 high string, that pedal bends up to A4. If a 25.5" scale instrument has a guitar string on it that bends from G#4 to A4, then why is an A4 a problem on a 25.5" spanish-style electric guitar? It is true that the vintage steel guitars were shorter, around 22-24" scale, but modern ones use the same high strings, and have scale lengths on the order of standard spanish-style electric guitars.

Any ideas why this is?!

My hypothesis is burs on the saddle. On my sevens that I've taken up to A4, I've polished the saddle to remove burs. My efforts before polishing were far less successful.


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## focusbob

bostjan said:


> 22.5? Wow, that's short. Also, a 4" delta!? I'd be happy to try it out, but I'm wondering why not 23.5" instead, since it seems to be perfectly viable for A4. Will 22.5" get you up to Bb?



It's for comfortable bending essentially. I would just be going for A4. The Rusty Cooley ff dean custom for example is tuned to high Ab and has a 23.5" scale. If there was a viable affordable option at 23.5" I would likely take that instead, but a guy paid oakland axe factory to build a 22.5-26.5" fanned 8 and now OAF is offering that scale at the same price as the base ss8 model. If I were to choose myself, I would probably choose a fan of 23-26, 22.5-25.5, something like that, because the lowest I play is drop A and I would feel better about a 3" inch fan than a 4" fan. I have to decide whether I can handle a 4" fan without trying one, that's where fretfind 2D comes in I suppose.


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## metaljon

bostjan said:


> Any ideas why this is?!


I know very little about pedal steel guitars or how they're played, but if they're only bending at most a half step from G#4 to A4, and if the strings aren't played with too much force, you should get relatively good life out of the G#4 string. Metallurgy has come a long way. Guitar string makers aren't using garbage steel to make strings. One of the worst things they can have happen to their product is for it to break prematurely. Few things will cause a guitar player to swear off a particular string maker than the notion (right, wrong, or otherwise) that their strings are prone to breaking. To some extent, I think this is part of the reason why none of the big string makers advertise or encourage players to tune up past E4, even when you have makers like Ernie Ball churning out their M-Steel product that absolutely could do that at an appropriately short scale length.

I mean, think about it. If Octave 4 Plus can make strings that work at A4, why couldn't anyone else? It's not like they're using magic. Granted, the big string makers are probably using a lower grade of steel to keep their costs down, but they're probably not using junk, either.

The biggest problem you get with guitar strings is all the bending and vibrato. Bends in particular. Tuned to A4, you're going to be hard pressed to make a string that can repeatedly tolerate 1½ step bends, yet many players have come to expect this from their strings. I blame the blues.


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## bostjan

Maybe that's my problem. I don't expect to do crazy bends on a high A4 string. I just think that there has to be more to the stories I hear about A4 strings breaking while just sitting on the guitar with no one playing. I've snapped G#4 strings on steel guitar before, but it's no big deal, because it rarely happens, and it takes one minute to replace it. I have noticed that Steel Guitar Boomers seem to last longer than when I replace a high G# with a plain guitar string, but that's a vague general statement. I will say that steel guitar strings are very thick, and thus extremely high tension compared to what we're used to playing ES guitars.

Oh well, it still strikes me that something considered "normal" for one instrument is generally seen as "nearly impossible" on another instrument, even though they use the same string and even the same ball end. I guess it's all about those step-and-a-half blues bends on the highest string.


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## Explorer

bostjan said:


> Also, no one has addressed what I pointed out years ago, the fact that pedal steel guitars can be found in scale lengths 25-25.5" and yet they come standard with a G#4 high string, that pedal bends up to A4. If a 25.5" scale instrument has a guitar string on it that bends from G#4 to A4, then why is an A4 a problem on a 25.5" spanish-style electric guitar? It is true that the vintage steel guitars were shorter, around 22-24" scale, but modern ones use the same high strings, and have scale lengths on the order of standard spanish-style electric guitars.
> 
> *Any ideas why this is?!*
> 
> My hypothesis is burs on the saddle. On my sevens that I've taken up to A4, I've polished the saddle to remove burs. My efforts before polishing were far less successful.



My first thought is that there is a reason Steinberger choose a straight pull for the tuners. Anyplace you have a sharp angle is an opportunity for breaking. 

G#4 would be the normal limit. An occasion but unsustained additional pull along its length, raising the pitch a half step, doesn't strain the string like a sideways push. Further, the sideways push originating in the center of the string. would stress both ends of the string over any edges and angle breaks in a normal guitar. 

Here's a question: Is there any regular tuning of a string on a pedal steel at A4 at 25.5"? If there *is* a custom of doing so, that would show that strings could withstand those high tensions. 

If there just isn't a tradition of doing that... I think there is a reason why not, and I suspect that would be due to the strings breaking beyond that. It doesn't stand to reason that no one ever tested those limits.


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## bostjan

Explorer said:


> My first thought is that there is a reason Steinberger choose a straight pull for the tuners. Anyplace you have a sharp angle is an opportunity for breaking.
> 
> G#4 would be the normal limit. An occasion but unsustained additional pull along its length, raising the pitch a half step, doesn't strain the string like a sideways push. Further, the sideways push originating in the center of the string. would stress both ends of the string over any edges and angle breaks in a normal guitar.
> 
> Here's a question: Is there any regular tuning of a string on a pedal steel at A4 at 25.5"? If there *is* a custom of doing so, that would show that strings could withstand those high tensions.
> 
> If there just isn't a tradition of doing that... I think there is a reason why not, and I suspect that would be due to the strings breaking beyond that. It doesn't stand to reason that no one ever tested those limits.



The reason there isn't is because there already is a G#4 that bends up to A with the "B" pedal. Having an A string would be redundant. The "B" pedal is the most often used.

Standard tuning is (low to high): (E2 G#2) B2 D3 E3 F#3 G#3 B3 E4 G#4 D#4 F#4

[yes, the two highest strings are lower than the the next two strings over]

The "A" pedal raises the B2 and B3 to C#3 and C#4, respectively.
The "B" pedal raises the G#3 and G#4 to A3 and A4, respectively. (and sometimes the G#2 to A2, on the 12 string models)
The "C" pedal raises the B3 and E4 to C#4 and F#4, respectively.
There can be knee levers and knee knockers to do various things to the tuning, depending on the maker's design.


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## vansinn

Pedal steel player must be getting nervous these days..
"Say what? Dem ERG players eating in on our territory? What? They're having multi bender bridges on nine stringers? That ain't right!"

Soon I'll have to create the C5 ERG Fender Bender thread - you know that'll be a lot more explosive than old-school C4


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## focusbob

Hey folks, I have another testimonial for nyxl strings for tuning up. Different guitar this time, 25.5" scale 8 string (ltd 338). First, I tried plain old pl007 and pl008 strings. Neither tuned up to a without breaking (both approximately a quarter tone away from a). Then, I tried an nyxl 008, it tuned to a (with patience) and has remained in a for over 24 hours without incidence. I don't think I'll be getting any bends out of this one. But good stuff nonetheless.


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## Hollowway

octatoan said:


> Yes. Fifth fret on your high E (which is an E3) is called A4. they're talking about guitars tuned with an extra A string above the high E, for things like BEADGBEA.



Not to be pedantic, but the high E on a guitar is E4, not E3. The octave numbering changes at the B-C interval, not the G-A. So, C4, D4, E4, F4, G4, A4, B4, then C5....


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## metaljon

focusbob said:


> Hey folks, I have another testimonial for nyxl strings for tuning up. Different guitar this time, 25.5" scale 8 string (ltd 338). First, I tried plain old pl007 and pl008 strings. Neither tuned up to a without breaking (both approximately a quarter tone away from a). Then, I tried an nyxl 008, it tuned to a (with patience) and has remained in a for over 24 hours without incidence. I don't think I'll be getting any bends out of this one. But good stuff nonetheless.


I did a little arithmetic on the NYXL strings. Based on the "microsite" D'Addario put together for the strings, a .010" gauge tuned to E4 at what I assume to be a 25.5" scale (that's the scale they use for their officially published tension charts) has a breaking point of around 35 lbs. You can cross reference this with the information 7stg published at his site and see this roughly equates to a tensile strength of 450 kPa (Quest for Tone, "Breaking Strength of a String" section). Walking down to a .008" gives us a breaking tension of 22.62 lbs. Tuned to A440, assuming the mass of the NYXL string is approximately equal to that of their standard plain steel string (0.00001418 lbs/in), you're at about 18.5 lbs, or 80% of breaking tension. At most, you'd get a half step bend out of it (A#4, which would be 20.75 lbs.). If you bend it up to B, it'll almost certainly break, unless you've got an exemplary specimen.

The good news is, if you get an SS8 Shorty, that 22.5" scale means an NYXL .009" will take A440 and bend up a whole step to only 80% of breaking tension. You'll have a really, truly, fully usable A440 string. You can even hit C5 with a 1½ step bend and still be within the string's tolerances. Well, maybe not if it's several months old and well beaten up.


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## focusbob

metaljon said:


> Tuned to A440, assuming the mass of the NYXL string is approximately equal to that of their standard plain steel string (0.00001418 lbs/in), you're at about 18.5 lbs, or 80% of breaking tension. At most, you'd get a half step bend out of it (A#4, which would be 20.75 lbs.).



These reports are by no means meant to suggest that a 25.5" scale is an ideal or even adequate option for tuning up to a. I understand your point. However, a lot of people have 25.5" scale guitars they may want to play around with, the guitar in question cost 300$ as opposed to 2k or more for better options, and the two are not mutually exclusive (I'll probably end up with both). Plus im also not sure how im going to get along with a 3.5" fan for chording and less fanned options (23.5-25.5) are 3k+. If the 8 or the nyxl 7 ill try next dont explode on their own accord, I can live without bending that one string on this particular guitar. A half step bend would just be gravy. In the end ill likely drop her down a half step to reduce sweating over breakage.


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## metaljon

focusbob said:


> These reports are by no means meant to suggest that a 25.5" scale is an ideal or even adequate option for tuning up to a. I understand your point. However, a lot of people have 25.5" scale guitars they may want to play around with, the guitar in question cost 300$ as opposed to 2k or more for better options, and the two are not mutually exclusive (I'll probably end up with both). Plus im also not sure how im going to get along with a 3.5" fan for chording and less fanned options (23.5-25.5) are 3k+. If the 8 or the nyxl 7 ill try next dont explode on their own accord, I can live without bending that one string on this particular guitar. A half step bend would just be gravy. In the end ill likely drop her down a half step to reduce sweating over breakage.


Sure, and I'm not criticizing. I was just adding some numbers to the mix to help people understand what sort of headroom you'd have in this case.

Although I'm only moderately pleased with my Agile 82427 (27 to 24¾), they are doing a custom run right now, and multiscales down to 24" are an option. At 24", you can get an NYXL .008" to A440 and have just enough give to get it bent up to B4, but you'll be really close to the breaking point, like within 5%. I have my 82427 tuned to A standard and I'm having good success at G4. With NYXLs, I can bend up to A without too many worries that it'll break. I'm using a .009, though.

Anyway, the 2" spread is still doable for chords, like you're looking for. Might be worth checking out.


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## focusbob

metaljon said:


> Anyway, the 2" spread is still doable for chords, like you're looking for. Might be worth checking out.



Thanks for running the numbers, I didnt mean to come off snappy. Is the situation any better for the nyxl 007 tuned to high a at 25.5"? (Relative to the 008?) I've always felt like I get a little more flex out of a 007, but not much...

I considered the pendulum very highly about 6 months ago. At the time they had a 24.5-27" 8 string available. But when I inquired I found it was a misprint and the guitars were actually 24.75" on top. I also learned that they dont make 24" on top, even via custom order, the lowest they go is 24.5" even though the option is labeled 24". if it werent 800-1k id try it but I feel like im ready to plop down 2k for a really good option and am only willing to pay a quarter of that for a meh option. I guess im hoping something else may come along (maybe a used rusty cooley) eventually...


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## metaljon

focusbob said:


> Thanks for running the numbers, I didnt mean to come off snappy. Is the situation any better for the nyxl 007 tuned to high a at 25.5"? (Relative to the 008?) I've always felt like I get a little more flex out of a 007, but not much...


The unfortunate thing with thinner strings is that while they start at a looser tension, they also break at a lower tension. In effect, you don't get any extra headroom, your starting tension is just lower. So while it will feel looser and seem to have more give at first, once you start to bend it, you'll break it sooner in the bend than you would a thicker string.

For instance, the breaking tension for an NYXL .008 is probably around 22.5 lbs., but a .007 would only be about 17.3.



focusbob said:


> I also learned that they dont make 24" on top, even via custom order, the lowest they go is 24.5" even though the option is labeled 24".


Ah, that's news to me. Yet another thing Rondo got wrong on their website. That was one of my biggest gripes when I got the 82427. There were two incorrect pieces of information on the site: the width of the pickups and the size of the frets. They said the pickups were 4.5" wide and that it came with extra jumbo frets. The pickups were 4.125" wide and the frets were medium wides.

The value of Agile is there, but things like this are really annoying.


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## octatoan

Hollowway said:


> Not to be pedantic, but the high E on a guitar is E4, not E3. The octave numbering changes at the B-C interval, not the G-A. So, C4, D4, E3, F4, G4, A4, B4, then C5....



I knew the bit about octave numbering changing at C but . . . oh well. Thanks! 

Edit: check your list of pitches!


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## Hollowway

octatoan said:


> I knew the bit about octave numbering changing at C but . . . oh well. Thanks!
> 
> Edit: check your list of pitches!



 whoops! Fixed!


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## focusbob

half step bends on the 008 nyxl tuned to a @ 25.5" 

They're painful, each time I hit the note the string says, "are you nuts?" Makes me more confident that it will be durable-ish at a without bending though. Once my bending breaks the string, I'll report on the 007 nyxl next. The PL versions broke a quarter tone below a.


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## xmixahlx

FYI: NYXL .007 string working well for A4 at 24.75" for a few months now. Bending the hell out of it. Works great.

(Picked up a Ibanez AX7221 locally for cheap to play with high A.)


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## focusbob

xmixahlx said:


> FYI: NYXL .007 string working well for A4 at 24.75" for a few months now. Bending the hell out of it. Works great.



Great to hear! Thanks for your report. I broke a nyxl .007 @25.5" tuning after being on and stable at A4 for several weeks. I replaced it with a nyxl .008 at A4 and so far it's going well. I'm looking to sell my 25.5" and buy an agile 824 (8 string, 24.75" for A1 to A4), so this is encouraging news.


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## xmixahlx

I had Bb4 for a few days with similar ability (bends, etc.), but was much more stiff. It broke when I was doing some less than genius intonation adjustments.

I'll try Bb4 again when I do a string change. I was using D'Addario Chromes ECG23 and thinking I might try ECG24 or ECG25 instead, too.

I'd love to do an 8 string with high A, this was a test run just to try out the NYXL 007 at 24.75" and it worked much better than expected.

I'm hawking the fixed bridge Agile 824 neckthroughs, too. Wondering how well the TOM would do for high A and such. That or an Agile Pendulum 82425 custom. Does anyone know what the exact dimension is on the 24" scale side? I've heard/read it isn't exactly 24", but not firm info.


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## focusbob

The pendulum "24" side is 24.75" unfortunately. Given that, and the pickup constraints with the pendulum (would need to replace with passive route 9 string blade pickups that dont exist or reroute for active route eg lace), I decided the 300$ extra for it over the 824 wasnt worth it. Im planning the tom with a resonator tailpiece in order to top load to further reduce tension. 

GOLD TONE RESO-GUITAR TAILPIECE RESOGUITAR - Elderly Instruments


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## techjsteele

I just bought an Agile Septor Elite 824 last Saturday for this very purpose (BEADGBEA tuning). When it arrives, along with the strings and pickups I ordered for it, I will post the results of my (hopefully successful) attempts to tune high A on it. I bought a few regular D'Addario plain steel .007 gauge strings and will snag a few of the NYXL .007 gauge strings for comparison.


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## xmixahlx

techjsteele said:


> I just bought an Agile Septor Elite 824 last Saturday for this very purpose (BEADGBEA tuning). When it arrives, along with the strings and pickups I ordered for it, I will post the results of my (hopefully successful) attempts to tune high A on it. I bought a few regular D'Addario plain steel .007 gauge strings and will snag a few of the NYXL .007 gauge strings for comparison.



Interested in your input on the TOM vs FIXED bridge debate going on in my head. You'll want to invest in those NYXL strings, but I'm also interested in the 007 vs 008 comparison, too. Jealous!


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## xmixahlx

focusbob said:


> The pendulum "24" side is 24.75" unfortunately.



Wondering how current this info is, since they now offer a 24.0" scale (?). Anyone here have a custom 82425 or 82427 that could jump in with thoughts/info?


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## focusbob

The 82427 pendulum's available in stock are 24.75" as confirmed by Kurt from rondo. In terms of the customs, 24" means 24.5", this info not from Kurt but from many custom buyers who posted reviews and measured.


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## focusbob

techjsteele said:


> I just bought an Agile Septor Elite 824 last Saturday for this very purpose (BEADGBEA tuning). When it arrives, along with the strings and pickups I ordered for it, I will post the results of my (hopefully successful) attempts to tune high A on it. I bought a few regular D'Addario plain steel .007 gauge strings and will snag a few of the NYXL .007 gauge strings for comparison.



Looking forward to your review!


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## xmixahlx

Do I spy a new 72427 Agile model? 24"-27" Fan?

Agile Pendulum Pro 72427 EB EMG Black Flame - RondoMusic.com


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## techjsteele

focusbob said:


> Looking forward to your review!



Thanks! Of course, I found out yesterday that the Septor will not show up until next Tuesday, so it will more than likely be next Friday or Saturday before I can do the full review.



xmixahlx said:


> Interested in your input on the TOM vs FIXED bridge debate going on in my head. You'll want to invest in those NYXL strings, but I'm also interested in the 007 vs 008 comparison, too. Jealous!



I ordered some NYXL .007 strings, which will probably arrive before the guitar will. As for the TOM vs FIXED debate, I picked the fixed bridge due to the overall feel/comfort level I have with those bridges (I have the same bridge on my Agile Intrepid 828 and love it). 



xmixahlx said:


> Do I spy a new 72427 Agile model? 24"-27" Fan?
> 
> Agile Pendulum Pro 72427 EB EMG Black Flame - RondoMusic.com



I saw that last weekend and contemplated buying it. However, I have been GASing for a short-scale 8-string for some time now so I passed. I think it would do equally well if tuned to EADGBEA or DGCFADG/CGCFADG.


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## marcojolo

This thread is interesting to me. I have 4 short scale 8 strings. Two of them have the high side at 23.5 and the other two has the high side at 22 and 22.5. The high string on all of them are tuned to Ab4. My experience with this has been that you can safely bend a half step on the 23.5" scale and a whole step on the other two. I think tuning up on a 25.5 scale guitar would be VERY unstable based on my experience. I love the short scale 8 strings. I never play my 6 or 7 strings any more.......no need I suppose.


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## focusbob

Tell us more about your short scale 8s!


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## marcojolo

focusbob said:


> Tell us more about your short scale 8s!


I have 4 of them.....

Dean RC8FF with a 25.5"-23.5" scale.

Xen HDC with a 25.5"-23.5" scale

Oakland Axe Factory SS8 26"-22.5" scale......this guitar can be ordered as a production model form the OAF website. 

Custom guitar built by Kevin Fast at Fast guitars with a 25.5"-22" scale.....basically an RG multiscale 8 string. You can see this one in the fast guitars thread on the dealers and group buys board.......I think the OAF guitar is in the OAF thread on the same board. Great guitars......I LOVE the extended range!!


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## marcojolo

Here are pics of the 3 customs.


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## focusbob

marcojolo said:


> I have 4 of them.....
> 
> Dean RC8FF with a 25.5"-23.5" scale.
> 
> Xen HDC with a 25.5"-23.5" scale
> 
> Oakland Axe Factory SS8 26"-22.5" scale......this guitar can be ordered as a production model form the OAF website.
> 
> Custom guitar built by Kevin Fast at Fast guitars with a 25.5"-22" scale.....basically an RG multiscale 8 string. You can see this one in the fast guitars thread on the dealers and group buys board.......I think the OAF guitar is in the OAF thread on the same board. Great guitars......I LOVE the extended range!!



Since you seem like an authority on the matter, what would you recommend as the least expensive entry to a ff 8 string suitable for uptuning? I whole-heartedly agree with your statement that the 25.5 or 24.75" guitars are not well suited for a4, but they are $400, as opposed to >1.5-2k. I understand even the least expensive option won't approach 400$, but what's the best that can be done out there?


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## marcojolo

I wouldn't say I'm an authority.....LOL!! I think the most affordable way to get an 8 string for tuning up would be to order the SS8 shorty through Oakland Axe Factory. It's a great guitar and I think comes in under 2k. Also.....the high scale is plenty short and it is a very comfortable layout. I think the 23.5 high side scale works ok but it just doesn't give you enough play when bending to not worry about breaking strings. That's my 2 cents anyways.


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## techjsteele

I snapped a couple of pics with my phone (sorry for the pic quality). 














My initial thoughts:

1) The fit & finish are incredible.
2) It came setup well from the factory.
3) The weight is perfectly balanced, and the neck is very easy to play on. 
4) Low F#/B riffing actually felt and sounded pretty good through my rig. I expected it to play and feel like flop-town, but it was pleasantly surprised. 
5) The stock pickups are not too bad, but not on par with aftermarket pickups (once I install the DiMarzio D-Activator 8 Bridge and Ionizer 8 Neck pickups, this instrument will really come alive).

Expect the BEADGBEA tuning review no later than this weekend. Also, this will be my 1,000th post!


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## focusbob

Awesome! So no qualms with the fretwork?


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## techjsteele

focusbob said:


> Awesome! So no qualms with the fretwork?



None at all. The fretwork is fantastic.


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## xmixahlx

Agile Septor Pro 824 EB CP Nat Mahog - RondoMusic.com

Rondo just dropped the price on the 824 TOM another $100...


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## focusbob

xmixahlx said:


> Agile Septor Pro 824 EB CP Nat Mahog - RondoMusic.com
> 
> Rondo just dropped the price on the 824 TOM another $100...



The GAS is real.


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## techjsteele

Initial review:

So earlier this afternoon I installed the DiMarzio D-Activator 8 Bridge and Ionizer 8 Neck in the Agile Septor Elite 824, then tuned it to BEADGBEA with a custom D'Addario string set (NYXL .007, DAPL .010, DAPL .0135, DAPL .017, DANW .025, DANW .034, DANW .046, DANW .060). I stretched the strings, tuned them to pitch and let the Agile sit for a bit. 

After re-tuning the strings to pitch, no high A string breakage occurred and so far, only the low B string needed a minor intonation adjustment (I will check it again in the morning and making any necessary adjustments). I have performed a few half-step bends on the high A string as well as strummed it with a medium heavy hand and will experiment with some full-step bends tomorrow, but I have found no issues with the string tension feel or tone (which is fantastic and very musical). Also, the low B string does not sound muddy or undefined at all. I will post updates throughout the weekend and will gladly answer any questions concerning the guitar, pickups, strings, etc.


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## techjsteele

The Septor 824 has been tuned to BEADGBEA for a week now. Full-step bends and aggressive playing on the high A string have proven to be a non-issue. So far, the D'Addario NYXL .007 gauge string is holding up quite well.


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## xmixahlx

I've now had the same NYXL 007 string tuned to A4 for ~6 months now...

AX7221, 24.75" - 

Stays well in tune. Sounds great. No issues.


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## techjsteele

I have experienced zero issues with the high A string on the Septor since my last post. Still going strong!


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## jack_cat

I'm overdue for posting my accumulated info in this thread.

This has to do with nylon and fluorocarbon strings which are under-represented here. 

Most requintos (little mexican guitar tuned up a fourth) are around 21" - 22". This makes an A4 easy. 
The longest A4 string I've played on is 63c / 24-3/4". It has a .405mm Seaguar fishline fluorocarbon string on it and its a little thin sounding for my taste, but it proves that it can be done. 

My duet partner has a 58c (22-3/4") straight fret 7-string with an A4 that sounds very nice with a D'Addario .022" rectified nylon string on it. 

I had my 2013 prototype 9-string fanned fret classical built with the A4 at 56c (22"). I'm using a .47mm fluorocarbon Seaguar fishline string, which is quite high tension, upwards of 7 kilos. I've tried some thinner strings, and nylon strings, but don't like them as much. I did like .43mm fluorocarbon, I think, but I only had 5 meters and I broke them all during the experimental phase. .405 fluoro is definitely too thin. 

I thought that this length would give more body to the sound because the string could be thicker. 
I won't do it again. The string itself sounds fine, but even with a wide fan (the prototype has 12c (4-3/4") of fan) I don't like the quality of the E4 and B3 strings which seem too short to have really good tone and intonation, and this seems to be a good reason for maximizing the length of the A4 string. 

The Brahms guitar 8-string design typically has the A4 at about 61.5 c (24-1/4"). This seems to be a practical maximum and most players seem happy with it, with some complaints that it's a little thin sounding. D'Addario .020" nylon seems to be the string for this. 

However, any classical type guitar with an A4 is going to have a different sound from a standard classical, more "lutelike" shall we say, or (to be negative) a little "tinnier". 

My next build 9-string fanned fret classical will have the A4 at 60c (23-5/8"). I'll keep you posted. Hope to have it built this spring. 

- jack


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## vansinn

Very neat seeing results with the NYXL's - I stopped experimenting and put a lid on moving on with the idea of having a high-tuned instrument due to economy.

Since then, I'm also changing my interests in music styles, so I'm now much more interested in a nylon/composite ERG (when finance permits romance).
That's some great info on nylon setups, jack; we don't see too much in this direction


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## OmegaSlayer

I need to try the A4.
Will have to scavenge for the NYXL 0.007


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## focusbob

"Will have to scavenge for the NYXL 0.007"

I've had far more success with NYXL 0.008" (at 25.5" or 24.75"), just a heads up.


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## bostjan

Theoretically, the thickness has no bearing on how high you can tune. The thicker the string, the more tension it requires, but, incidentally, the more tension it can hold, being that it is thicker. So thickness is really just a matter of what feels right. If you want slinkier than what you get with a .007", though, you are looking at o4p options and not much else.

The issue seems to be that a lot of people cannot seem to get any standard formula strings to tune to A440 on 25.5" scale. I strongly feel that with good saddles and a proper nut, it can be done, as I have done it on my own guitars before with great success, but the .007" is just too tight to feel right.


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## focusbob

bostjan, I'm not making/countering a theoretical argument, the .008 has been far more durable in my hands over about a dozen of each @25.5".


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## bostjan

focusbob said:


> bostjan, I'm not making/countering a theoretical argument, the .008 has been far more durable in my hands over about a dozen of each @25.5".



It will depend on your technique. Also strings with bad composition will generally be more prone to more noticeable issues at thinner diameters, simply because the size of the defect will be larger in proportion to the string.

Your anecdote is that you have good luck with NYXL .008", and my anecdote is that I have good luck with PS .007". It seems like a lot of folks had issues with the o4p strings, and others had good luck with them. This is normal, I believe, to have such variation, but I suspect that saddles and nuts are a contributor to some of the issues people are having, because the tensile strength data for steel strings suggests that A440 should not only be plausible, but reasonably bendable at 25.5". After using carefully cut graphite nuts and saddles on two seven string guitars I've owned, I've been able to tune to A440 at 25.5" consistently with a plain .007" string, with a little patience and maintenance.

That's just my input. I keep coming to this thread to offer it, yet no one seems to respond much.


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## vansinn

Yo bostjan, IIRC, the saddle and nut points were referred in my opening post.
I agree, though, that it may seem some/many may be serving these points too little notice.

On my earlier attempts on A4 (@25"), strings alway broke at random points, not nut/saddle, which I attribute to having prepared those nicely, plus reinforced my strings where they pass through the tuner and soldered the wrap-around at the ball - likewise points of failure.


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## techjsteele

I have not tried the .008 NYXL, but have had great success with the .007 NYXL on my Septor so far. IMHO the .007 feels just right tension-wise on the 24.75" scale. The .008 might be a little too tight for my taste on the Septor. I've had no issues with string bends and hard picking/strumming on the string itself.


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## vansinn

They do make .0075 too, you know


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## Durero

vansinn said:


> They do make .0075 too, you know



I don't believe they do. The listing on their website goes from .007 to .008

D'Addario Strings : NYXL : NYXL High Carbon Steel Singles - Two Packs


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## vansinn

^ ahh, 7½ cents worth of error; now, where did I hear such..


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## Oddballinthetree

I have an AX7521 (24.75" scale) that I'm looking to tune E-a. It seems from the consensus over the past few pages that a .007 string should be workable for this? Should I get a nicer kind of string than my usual Daddario nickel wounds? Thanks for the help! I will definitely report back with my experiences.


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## Winspear

Oddballinthetree said:


> I have an AX7521 (24.75" scale) that I'm looking to tune E-a. It seems from the consensus over the past few pages that a .007 string should be workable for this? Should I get a nicer kind of string than my usual Daddario nickel wounds? Thanks for the help! I will definitely report back with my experiences.



D'addario PL008 or PL007 is fine. 007 will feel more reasonable. Go over all sharp points. You are pushing it with the tension and it will break at any imperfection. Don't bend it  Semitone down perfectly achieveable however.


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## Oddballinthetree

EtherealEntity said:


> D'addario PL008 or PL007 is fine. 007 will feel more reasonable. Go over all sharp points. You are pushing it with the tension and it will break at any imperfection. Don't bend it  Semitone down perfectly achieveable however.



Thanks for the help!

I tried it out this evening, picked up a 008 since my usual place didn't have a 007 available. I restrung the whole guitar, and spent about an hour tuning the a up in small increments. It's holding tune fine so far, no breakage, a little more tension than I'd like so I may switch to the 007 when I restring. I don't do much bending, so I should be okay there . We'll see how long it lasts - hopefully awhile, I'm really enjoying the differences in chord voicing!


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## TankTurret

I've read this thread with some enthusiasm, I've been curious about a high A myself. 

I have a BC Rich 8 string at the moment, and I was considering restringing it B to A but it is long scale so I was concerned it wouldn't be so reliable even with the thinnest strings, and also that I was thinking to mod it to add a tremolo bar (as I've really missed it for my lead playing) but it seems to be expensive and not so reliable anyway with the string tension involved, based on the threads I've read on this forum on the topic

So now I have a new idea, of getting a second special "treble" guitar, pick up a standard 6 string (with a trem bar), then tune in A to A. (and use the BC Rich for riffs and rhythm, and the treble guitar for lead)

Any specific recommendations for a good reasonable (~ $4-700) 6 string that would fit for a "treble" lead/shred style playing (24+ frets, trem bar)? 
I was thinking Ibanez RG series should be fine, but perhaps there are ones that still have 24 frets and an even shorter scale than the 24.75, in which case, is it possible to get even higher than A4? 
Perhaps on a 23" scale or so one could tune D to D5 with .007 for the A4 and the octave4plus .005 for D5? (or something in between)


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## Action

This isn't quite what you're asking for, and they're hard to come by, but for someone here with those sorts of intentions (Octave 5+), maybe it would be worth tracking down one of the various ultra short scales made over the years, called octave guitars, that appear to tune E3-E5 with standard strings. The scale is probably around 12-14". I suppose such a thing is hard enough to find in the states, so probably not available in europe though :/

Attached is what they look like.


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## TankTurret

Oh my. Yeah that is a cute interesting curiosity. But how can you even fret the string on the high frets unless you have toddler hands? Of course yeah that's a bit too excessive. 

I've also seen 3/4 guitars and I think even that would be too little, the spacing on frets 20-24 are already quite small on a standard 24.75" guitar, I was thinking maybe there's something 23" or so, maybe with that scale length you can get the D5 with a .005 string.

but yeah that is a cute guitar I want to pet it


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## bostjan

Action said:


> This isn't quite what you're asking for, and they're hard to come by, but for someone here with those sorts of intentions (Octave 5+), maybe it would be worth tracking down one of the various ultra short scales made over the years, called octave guitars, that appear to tune E3-E5 with standard strings. The scale is probably around 12-14". I suppose such a thing is hard enough to find in the states, so probably not available in europe though :/
> 
> Attached is what they look like.
> 
> View attachment 53271



Cool! I have not seen one of those in ages!

They were sort of a thing from the resurgence of solid body mandolins in the 1980's, from what I remember, they were basically six string Mandolins, so, a scale length of about 12" seems right. There was a builder in England who made these, but they were hand-made and very expensive, probably much rarer than the already rare production models.


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## PBC

TankTurret said:


> I've read this thread with some enthusiasm, I've been curious about a high A myself.
> 
> I have a BC Rich 8 string at the moment, and I was considering restringing it B to A but it is long scale so I was concerned it wouldn't be so reliable even with the thinnest strings, and also that I was thinking to mod it to add a tremolo bar (as I've really missed it for my lead playing) but it seems to be expensive and not so reliable anyway with the string tension involved, based on the threads I've read on this forum on the topic
> 
> So now I have a new idea, of getting a second special "treble" guitar, pick up a standard 6 string (with a trem bar), then tune in A to A. (and use the BC Rich for riffs and rhythm, and the treble guitar for lead)
> 
> Any specific recommendations for a good reasonable (~ $4-700) 6 string that would fit for a "treble" lead/shred style playing (24+ frets, trem bar)?
> I was thinking Ibanez RG series should be fine, but perhaps there are ones that still have 24 frets and an even shorter scale than the 24.75, in which case, is it possible to get even higher than A4?
> Perhaps on a 23" scale or so one could tune D to D5 with .007 for the A4 and the octave4plus .005 for D5? (or something in between)



I have done something like this. I got an Epiphone PeeWee 







It's a 19" scale. The are currently discontinued but you might be able to find one for cheap. I tuned it an octave higher than my normal. It goes from 

C#3-C#5 with a D'Addario .007 at the top. The tuners are the worst I've ever experienced it was difficult getting it to wind the string. My hypothesis was confirmed when I played, it doesn't sound that much higher than a regular guitar. If you slowly strum all the open notes, the interval between the 6th and the 1st is still 2 octaves. It would sound high if you still had a regular C#2, but the pitch relativity that you hear it still the same on a regular guitar. Your just lacking the lower note center. I think it could be useful in composition when you layer it on top of a guitar tuned an octave lower, it would create great contrast. 

You should be able to get an ESP F-Jr






With it's 20.5" scale, all you need to do is change your initial tuning to C standard. Then you can have C2-C4 on one guitar and a C3-C5 on that one since the .007 dictates how high you may go. 

Because this mini guitar didn't meet my needs of adding a second higher string I ended up resolving this problem by shifting my major third. 

For example, you could tune an 8 string. BEADF#BEA (6 string B with two high strings) and I found it feels and sounds higher even though the pitch is the same.


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## TankTurret

Oh nice that does sound like a cool option, but

1) how small are the high frets? is it playable with adult hands?
2) Do they make versions with tremolo bars?


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## bostjan

It's an adjustment, but the 24th fret on a 20" scale guitar is totally useable. As far as mini guitars with trems, I don't recall ever seeing one. Even the mini strats have hardtail bridges, IIRC.


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## PBC

TankTurret said:


> Oh nice that does sound like a cool option, but
> 
> 1) how small are the high frets? is it playable with adult hands?
> 2) Do they make versions with tremolo bars?



It's about the equivalent of the 27th fret on a 25.5". It's too subjective to give you an exact answer because I don't know the diameter of your fingers. Although I'm confident you should be able to fret it with your pinky and if not. Just grow the nail out on the finger. 

If you need some pictures, you can check the NGD of the 36 Fret Gary Kramer I did. The links were on imgur so they look broken, but if you open the image in a new tab, and reload the tab it should display. It'll give you a better idea visually of how it might work. 

The trem would need to be installed separated and use caution. C5 to C#5 is getting in the brink of the possibility, as a dive only trem it would be fine.


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## TankTurret

Seeing mostly success stories here with the A4 I went ahead and got myself a Jackson soloist as my lead playing guitar. I got a bunch of addagio .007 strings, and after snapping them a few times found I could tune to A4 by tuning to G then waiting an hour, to G# wait to between G# and A wait and then to A. However, every three or four times I play it it snaps on me, and it definitely cannot take a bend up with the trem bar. It's ok to just use it for dives, but still it seems to snap far too often, between the nut and the tuner usually. So I will go ahead and try the octave4plus strings, although he says it is not certain they will work and that many guitars do have trouble staying at A4. It is expensive, too, so hopefully those strings will work, at least in the sense of holding up to regular playing, without necessarily bends and such. Otherwise I feel as though this would fail as the lead guitar I intended, which would be a shame


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## Winspear

TankTurret said:


> Seeing mostly success stories here with the A4 I went ahead and got myself a Jackson soloist as my lead playing guitar. I got a bunch of addagio .007 strings, and after snapping them a few times found I could tune to A4 by tuning to G then waiting an hour, to G# wait to between G# and A wait and then to A. However, every three or four times I play it it snaps on me, and it definitely cannot take a bend up with the trem bar. It's ok to just use it for dives, but still it seems to snap far too often, between the nut and the tuner usually. So I will go ahead and try the octave4plus strings, although he says it is not certain they will work and that many guitars do have trouble staying at A4. It is expensive, too, so hopefully those strings will work, at least in the sense of holding up to regular playing, without necessarily bends and such. Otherwise I feel as though this would fail as the lead guitar I intended, which would be a shame


That semitone or two (as introduced by bending too) really do make all the difference. Tune to G# and you'll have little issue. Tune to G and you'll have none at all


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## bostjan

1. Check your nut for burs.
2. Try to avoid playing bends on the highest string.
3. If you go with the O4p, you should do the same procedure to restring, as boring as that is. The o4p strings have a different chemistry and a different feel to them, if you haven't noticed, but they tend to take substantially longer to stretch out, in my experience. They should be bendable tuned to A4, though.
4. What is the scale length of your Jackson?


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## TankTurret

Thanks for the quick replies!

Winspear,
Yes that's true worst comes to worst I can always just tune to G and bend away...

bostjan,
1. I don't see anything unusual, but the o4p guy did mention that there is a hard bend of the string at the nut on this guitar and that could very well cause problems
2. Yes I have stopped trying to bend it or use the trem bar to bend up. Last couple times it snapped I hadn't been bending it
3) OK, yes I'll definitely make sure to tune a bit at a time, and then let it sit and then play it lightly at first, then faster, and not try bending until a week after it's been set to A4
4. 25"5


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## Halowords

Quick question (I think). I have an Agile 92730 and I want to capo it so it plays with a high-A4 on the first string with a Gibson-esque tone and feel. To what should I tune it (or how many frets up will it be tuned to standard), and what string gauge would best get me that sort of tone/feel?

For reference, for my standard tuning on a Gibson-scale I use 11's.


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## Winspear

Halowords said:


> Quick question (I think). I have an Agile 92730 and I want to capo it so it plays with a high-A4 on the first string with a Gibson-esque tone and feel. To what should I tune it (or how many frets up will it be tuned to standard), and what string gauge would best get me that sort of tone/feel?
> 
> For reference, for my standard tuning on a Gibson-scale I use 11's.



27" F# with a 009 will achieve this with the same tension as a Gibson 11 E. So capo on 3 for high A, however this is actually about 1.5 frets shorter than Gibson length. It will be very safe though, allowing you to bend a semitone with ease, and, if there are no sharp points (and no bad luck), a full tone quite safely.
You could do 27" G with an 0085 and capo at two to get you a bit closer to actual Gibson scale, and 22 fret pickup placement instead of 21. It will be perfectly safe but personally I'd be a little nervous bending it a semitone and would not want to bend it a full tone.
The full string set I would suggest is 8.5/9+11-49+64


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## Halowords

Winspear said:


> 27" F# with a 009 will achieve this with the same tension as a Gibson 11 E. So capo on 3 for high A, *however this is actually about 1.5 frets shorter than Gibson length. It will be very safe though, allowing you to bend a semitone with ease, and, if there are no sharp points (and no bad luck), a full tone quite safely.*
> You could do 27" G with an 0085 and capo at two to get you a bit closer to actual Gibson scale, and 22 fret pickup placement instead of 21. It will be perfectly safe but personally I'd be a little nervous bending it a semitone and would not want to bend it a full tone.
> The full string set I would suggest is 8.5/9+11-49+64



That actually sounds perfect, especially for starters, as I've considered a Fender Mustang short-scale or similar alto guitar for a warmer sounding guitar just to play with. It may take a while to figure out exactly where I want to be with this, however having a rounder sounding high-end and the ability to play it without risking it being overly brittle makes it an easy compromise to make. So thanks a million!


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## Winspear

Yeah it's really nice! Enjoy  I'm all about being able to treat it safely like a normal string


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## bostjan

Anyone seen this? https://www.stewmac.com/gifts/t-style-mini-guitar-with-gig-bag.html

The guitar is described as being able to tune it an octave above standard with standard string gauges. The scale length is 16.3", which would make the high E equivalent to an A half-flat at standard scale length.

Thoughts?


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## ixlramp

"For a totally new but familiar tone, we've enjoyed tuning these one octave up in standard, A to A (like a capo at the 5th fret)"
That suggests A standard, not octave-up.
16.3" octave-up would be equivalent to 32.6" in standard EADGBE, which is not possible, 30" is the limit for E4.
Cute guitar.


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## bostjan

ixlramp said:


> "For a totally new but familiar tone, we've enjoyed tuning these one octave up in standard, A to A (like a capo at the 5th fret)"
> That suggests A standard, not octave-up.
> 16.3" octave-up would be equivalent to 32.6" in standard EADGBE, which is not possible, 30" is the limit for E4.
> Cute guitar.



Read right before that:



StewMac said:


> For a totally new but familiar tone, we've enjoyed tuning these one octave up in standard



I'm tempted to get one and tune it up as high as it'll go, just to see... but my wife would probably kill me if I get another guitar, even if it's tiny.


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## Winspear

I am inclined to agree that's beyond a practical limit but it's certainly doable for a short time. I've done A on 25.5 but wouldn't choose to go higher than G. One semitone lower and you're pretty much good (two , i.e D5, would be my choice to enjoy the instrument fully)


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## Hollowway

Forget tuning - those frets are going to be dang close together! But it doesn’t look designed to play high up the neck anyway. I’m not sure I would buy one of these, as I could always just play everything north of the 12th fret on any regular guitar.


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## bostjan

Hollowway said:


> Forget tuning - those frets are going to be dang close together! But it doesn’t look designed to play high up the neck anyway. I’m not sure I would buy one of these, as I could always just play everything north of the 12th fret on any regular guitar.


If I was handy with mods, I'd want to convert it into a headless and round off the body material beyond the bridge and make the world's ugliest travel guitar.


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## ixlramp

"For a totally new but familiar tone, we've enjoyed tuning these one octave up in standard, A to A (like a capo at the 5th fret), and all sorts of open tunings."
Akk, i see, it is a list of tunings =)
And yes, octave-up is borderline practical, they probably managed that temporarily.


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## bostjan

ixlramp said:


> "For a totally new but familiar tone, we've enjoyed tuning these one octave up in standard, A to A (like a capo at the 5th fret), and all sorts of open tunings."
> Akk, i see, it is a list of tunings =)
> And yes, octave-up is borderline practical, they probably managed that temporarily.


So, while I have your attention, what are your thoughts on why pedal steel guitars with a scale length of 25"±1" are tuned most commonly with a highest open string of G# and the B pedal, which is the most commonly used pedal, raises the pitch to A, yet playing a guitar Spanish-style with a high A is almost universally said to be "impractical," even without string bending. Is it safer for the string to be pitched down a half step and routinely bent up and down than it is to remain at the higher pitch?


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## Winspear

bostjan said:


> Is it safer for the string to be pitched down a half step and routinely bent up and down than it is to remain at the higher pitch?


Definitely , in my experience. I guess breaking point is breaking point, but say that pitch is 95% of breaking point - best just to bend to it now and then as sitting at 95% breaking point permanently will not last long.


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## ixlramp

Seems possibly safer to be sometimes at A4 and sometimes at G#4, than always at A4.

But, how pedal steel guitars make A4 practical on 26" or 25" i do not understand, even if that pitch is only used part of the time, 24" seems practical. Maybe the method of playing is generally less rough on the strings.


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