# Keith Caputo of Life of Agony undergoes sex change



## DLG (Jul 14, 2011)

for real though. 

LIFE OF AGONY&#039;s Keith Caputo Underwent A Sex Change Operation | Shocking Revelations | Metal Injection


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## Zer01 (Jul 14, 2011)

I...wut

What is this i don't even


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 14, 2011)

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTT???????


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## nojyeloot (Jul 14, 2011)




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## ArtDecade (Jul 14, 2011)

.... Uhm ... really? River runs red... once a month.  I think Keith is awesome. I've always dug his music and hope he keeps doing whatever it is that makes him happy. He sure as hell brought me a lot of amazing memories at LOA shows over the years.


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## DLG (Jul 14, 2011)

only time I got to see LOA was in 97 with the dude from Ugly Kid Joe, great singer, but it just wasn't even close.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 14, 2011)

^ Whitfield Crane. He was not really cut out for that gig. 1993 NYC... that was a show, mate. My neck still hurts!


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## Leuchty (Jul 14, 2011)

whoa.


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## troyguitar (Jul 14, 2011)

Well it's easier for a lot of metalheads as they already have the hair for it. Especially if they're old school and used to wearing makeup and skin-tight clothing...


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2011)

nojyeloot said:


>



You're gonna have to explain this one to me.


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## Mindcrime1204 (Jul 14, 2011)

^^^ Guessin' it's some sort of left field comment


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## Triple-J (Jul 14, 2011)

Saw this earlier today I was going to open a thread about it myself but tbh I really don't know what to say about it I just hope it's for real and not just some crazy publicity stunt (Keith can be a little far out at times) and that it brings Mina (Keith's new name) some peace as she deserves it.


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## chronocide (Jul 14, 2011)

Put Life of Agony on a couple years ago. Absolutely top blokes. I'm quite indifferent to what people do with their bodies so I'm not particularly interested, but google doesn't throw up many hits which doesn't convince me...


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## technomancer (Jul 14, 2011)

Whatever makes her happy


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 14, 2011)

He is a he apparently, still preop.


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## chronocide (Jul 14, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Put Life of Agony on a couple years ago. Absolutely top blokes. I'm quite indifferent to what people do with their bodies so I'm not particularly interested, but google doesn't throw up many hits which doesn't convince me...




Oh I see from other forums this is apparently old news. I assumed it was a wind up as I thought I'd have heard before. But there you go. Good for her.


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## ry_z (Jul 14, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> He is a he apparently, still preop.



Whether or not she's had surgery really doesn't have any bearing on her gender identity.

At any rate, best of luck to her.


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## Explorer (Jul 14, 2011)

I guess it's interesting to some, but given how tolerant most metal fans are nowadays, hardly controversial. 

I mean, really, who feels that they have the stature to rip on Priest? Ever since Rob Halford came out, there has been less and less tolerance of homophobia in metal, just as Pete Townsend caused in rock. 

With the rest of the culture, though, Caputo will still have a hard time. Intolerance is an ugly thing, but certain sections of society are happy to live with that ugliness, even (completely bizarrely) some who claim to love their neighbors.. Fortunately, not everyone hates people in this way.


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## apiss (Jul 14, 2011)

what.the.fuck?

i'm shocked.


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## themike (Jul 14, 2011)

Even post op that river won't run red.....ever


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## signalgrey (Jul 14, 2011)

"Obviously, this isn't something she decided to do overnight and gave a lot of thought to. And while metalheads usually get sterotyped as immensely homophobic"

what? i think they are referring to the call of duty/halo crowd.


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## Customisbetter (Jul 14, 2011)

Ive never met a homophobic metalhead.


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## chronocide (Jul 14, 2011)

Customisbetter said:


> Ive never met a homophobic metalhead.



I'm not sure if I know any who're genuinely homophobic ones. Far too many are happy to throw "gay" and "fag" about as pejoratives though.


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## JeffHenneman (Jul 15, 2011)

Wow, I just listened to river runs red last week for the first time in many years. I remember when that album first came out, we used to listen to it non stop.
Its kinda shocking but not a big deal to me. I hope he is happy and doesnt have to deal with any hatred.


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## leandroab (Jul 15, 2011)

Whoa!


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## Explorer (Jul 15, 2011)

Customisbetter said:


> Ive never met a homophobic metalhead.



I don't know if "homophobic" and "gay hating" are the same thing, but if you read through this thread, one person in particular may jump out at you.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...elt-lawsuit-pits-atheist-against-sheriff.html

It's possible that there are a lot of metalheads like this, but that they've learned they have to conceal it or face a backlash against their intolerance. Having to hide their hate probably feels to them like they're being oppressed, weirdly enough, *laugh*


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## Curt (Jul 15, 2011)

People who usually undergo this type of change have felt this way their entire life.

Congrats to her for finally going through with what will inevitably make her happy.


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## tuneinrecords (Jul 15, 2011)

I wonder about the voice change. For someone to have made a reputation for themselves with their voice, I can only imagine the thought process in regards to deciding to go for the change or not. Caputo's voice has always stood out and was very identifiable. Perhaps there will be higher notes in the future?


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## CrownofWorms (Jul 15, 2011)




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## Volsung (Jul 15, 2011)

It seems Keith Mina Caputo isn't going all the way.

From KMC's Twitter account:



KeithMinaCaputo said:


> @metalinsider thx for being sweet & respectful..Deeply appreciate it. FYI, I'm keeping my penis! >_<



the link...Twitter

Maybe it's for vocal reasons. She could be teasing the Metal Insider for all I know. Eh...just so long as KMC seems content, then all is well. Still a fuckin' kick ass singer.


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## Curt (Jul 15, 2011)

Volsung said:


> It seems Keith Mina Caputo isn't going all the way.
> 
> From KMC's Twitter account:
> 
> ...





Always have dug Life of Agony.


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## petereanima (Jul 15, 2011)

River Runs Red is one of those records that was a total game changer for me back then, and also fulfills for myself the common "helped me through very tough times when i was a teenager" thing, and for sure is responsible in some kind of way that I am the person I am, and also that I am making music for almost 20 years now, so it will always have a very special place in my heart.

Funnily enough - I was listening to RRR earlier that week, and just thought "Man, I would love to see them live one more time." Have seen them 3 times live, always were AMAZING. When I saw them the first time, we had the luck to meet the guys just before the show, awesome people, I was shocked about myself about how "shy" I was and almost didnt bring out any word, tough I've met "more famous" people before and never had any problem, didnt really care mostly...guess thats what happens when you meet "teenage-heroes"...if I should ever meet Iron Maiden, I'll probably get a coronary... 

Keith/Mina can do whatever she wants, if this is what was struggling her in the last years, then I hope it finally brings some peace to her soul. All the best for her.


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## Jontain (Jul 15, 2011)

This is not something I could ever understand personally, however please dont think that I am against others doing it, people are (or should be) free to live their lives exactly as they please.


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## Edika (Jul 15, 2011)

I have some friends that are gay and they have explained to me the difficulty of understanding their difference and accepting their homosexuality. It is somewhat more easy these days but it still psychologically wrecking for a teenager or even an adult to accept a role that is still controversial and discriminated. I understand up to a point and sympathize but can't truly comprehend.

I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be for people that actually want to change their gender. That they feel that they have been born the wrong sex. This would be even more confusing for them. I mean in the end these people know that the changes are cosmetic and sometimes irreversible (especially M2F transitions). We still can't modify XY to XX (or vice versa) so it would still be a discomforting thought constantly for someone doing a change like this.


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## MrMcSick (Jul 15, 2011)

WOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! I am pro gay but when I saw this I had such a feeling of dissapointment. Used to listen to him when I would get sick of my Faith No More cd's lol. He was my closest to Patton singer I could find back in the 90's. Loved River and Ugly, liked Soul, never really listened to the last 1. This is definetly not something I ever expected.


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## drmosh (Jul 15, 2011)

What the hell.

I mean that just in the way that that surprised me, I used to (and my brother moreso) enjoy their music and reading this really surprised me.
All the best to her!


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## adrock (Jul 15, 2011)

th3m1ke said:


> Even post op that river won't run red.....ever


  

best. comment. ever.


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## yidcorer (Jul 15, 2011)

Still ugly as hell.


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## HumanFuseBen (Jul 15, 2011)

Hahahaha, well, okay. Whatever makes a person happy! If this is true, i applaud having the guts to do such a thing when you know you are in the public eye.

Anyone ever seen "A Mighty Wind"?


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## PyramidSmasher (Jul 15, 2011)

If you get a sex change do your sex organs work like the gender you just became? Or is it mostly cosmetic?


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## ry_z (Jul 15, 2011)

PyramidSmasher said:


> If you get a sex change do your sex organs work like the gender you just became? Or is it mostly cosmetic?



A male-to-female transsexual after sex reassignment surgery couldn't carry children (not having a uterus and so on), but the parts are otherwise functional, yes.


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## Variant (Jul 15, 2011)

chronocide said:


> I'm not sure if I know any who're genuinely homophobic ones. Far too many are happy to throw "gay" and "fag" about as pejoratives though.



Fag means Harley rider now. 

 But for real, what you like to fuck will doesn't put you in charge of the evolution of language. It's utterly pretentious to think so. Fag didn't mean homosexual to begin with.


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## Curt (Jul 15, 2011)

Variant said:


> Fag means Harley rider now.
> 
> But for real, what you like to fuck will doesn't put you in charge of the evolution of language. It's utterly pretentious to think so. Fag didn't mean homosexual to begin with.



That episode of southpark.


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## tuneinrecords (Jul 15, 2011)

HumanFuseBen said:


> Hahahaha, well, okay. Whatever makes a person happy! If this is true, i applaud having the guts to do such a thing when you know you are in the public eye.
> 
> Anyone ever seen "A Mighty Wind"?



Great movie. That's actually Spinal Tap in there in bluesgrass form. The guy with the sex change was Harry Shearer (sp?) from The Simpsons fame.


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## kung_fu (Jul 15, 2011)

Mindcrime1204 said:


> ^^^ Guessin' it's some sort of left field comment



I thought it had to do with the CITGO sign, then i read he was keeping his penis....

All kidding aside, i hope this makes him (her ) happy


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## ArrowHead (Jul 15, 2011)

Volsung said:


> It seems Keith Mina Caputo isn't going all the way.
> 
> From KMC's Twitter account:
> 
> ...





Goddammit, now until the day I die I will no longer hear him singing "These words between us", but instead "I kept my penis".

I think that song is ruined for me now.


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## nostealbucket (Jul 15, 2011)

He (  ) got his junk scrambled up  ... good bye, 5 minutes of daily pleasure... forever... 

Meh, whatever, at least he's (  ) happy.


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## CD1221 (Jul 15, 2011)

Life of Agony indeed. This puts some perspective on previous lyrics and explains the intensity of the lyrics/vocals.

Gotta support someone for being authentic to themselves. That is was music/metal/life should be about. 

bravo.


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## sunbasket (Jul 15, 2011)

nojyeloot said:


>



If there's grass on the field, play ball.


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## CD1221 (Jul 15, 2011)

I just watched the clip that was at the bottom of the OPs link. bloody great video.


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## IamLukas (Jul 16, 2011)

Still shocked....totally...


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

> Caputo recently confirmed via tweet that he is keeping his penis



Fucking idiot, this is clearly a troll.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

Variant said:


> Fag means Harley rider now.
> 
> But for real, what you like to fuck will doesn't put you in charge of the evolution of language. It's utterly pretentious to think so. Fag didn't mean homosexual to begin with.



Strange statement.

Etymology is irrelevant. When "fag" and "gay" are used as pejoratives, they are used to mean homosexual. It's completely cretinous to dispute it. 

If someone calls you a mongo you're not going to assume they mean you look south-east Asian.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Strange statement.
> 
> Etymology is irrelevant. When "fag" and "gay" are used as pejoratives, they are used to mean homosexual. It's completely cretinous to dispute it.
> 
> If someone calls you a mongo you're not going to assume they mean you look south-east Asian.



Pro-tip: do not accuse Variant of being a cretin. Things will get bad for you very quickly. 

FWIW, when I use the word "gay" in a negative context, I am not referring to homosexuals as negative. It's the word itself that carries the negative context, not what it is sometimes used to mean. Is it politically correct? I don't give a flying fuck.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

If someone says something daft they should be called on it.

The negativity of the words exists purely because of their being used to mean homosexual. If I call a person a fag anyone who thinks they should not take it as an intended insult because I might actually mean they're a cigarette or a bundle of sticks is a fucking idiot.


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> If someone says something daft they should be called on it.
> 
> The negativity of the words exists purely because of their being used to mean homosexual. If I call a person a fag anyone who thinks they should not take it as an intended insult because I might actually mean they're a cigarette or a bundle of sticks is a fucking idiot.



Pretty much all people who don't look at the word as an insult typically do not use it as such. 

as per example: Me.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

I think you're being somewhat facetious. We are clearly talking about when the words ARE being used as insults. Of course there are different connotations when they aren't.


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> I think you're being somewhat facetious. We are clearly talking about when the words ARE being used as insults. Of course there are different connotations when they aren't.



Of course.

I guess what i'm trying to get at there, is that there are a lot of words in the English language that people use improperly.. Especially ignorant in cases that there are already other words that were in place for what they're trying to get at.
And if it weren't for all the idiots of the world, these words wouldn't have such negative connotations to begin with.
I just don't see your point in calling out Variant for him stating his opinion on the matter.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

He seemed to be stating that fag isn't a homosexual slur because it used to mean something else, and that saying it was should be considered pretentious. Which struck me as bizarre, at best. Or thus was my reading of it at least, the strange sentence about putting yourself in charge of the evolution because of what you fuck with didn't help the statement's clarity.


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> He seemed to be stating that fag isn't a homosexual slur because it used to mean something else. Which struck me as bizarre. Or thus was my reading of it at least, the strange sentence about putting someone in charge of the evolution didn't help the statement's clarity.



I think he was essentially getting at what I was getting at.. Somewhere in history someone decided they wanted to use those words as derogatory terms against homosexuals.

I know he knows it's meant to be a demeaning term against homosexuals, but I think he finds it to be as much bullshit as I.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

That just seems to be a pointless line of thought to me. Of course it's just an arbitrary word that someone decided meant homosexual some time ago. But that doesn't mean using it as a pejorative isn't offensive.


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## unclejemima218 (Jul 16, 2011)

wat


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> That just seems to be a pointless line of thought to me. Of course it's just an arbitrary word that someone decided meant homosexual some time ago. But that doesn't mean using it as a pejorative isn't offensive.



I didn't see that he ever stated that it wasn't offensive under its use as such. Just more that he disagrees with its use as such. I know that doesn't take away from the fact that it is used as an offensive pejorative, but that's all I saw in his post.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

Perhaps. As I say, maybe I've extrapolated his meaning wrongly from that somewhat unclear post.


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Perhaps. As I say, maybe I've extrapolated his meaning wrongly from that somewhat unclear post.



We'll wait for him to chime in on that.


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## Explorer (Jul 16, 2011)

Regardless of their origins, certain words are known to be insulting.

Is anyone seriously in doubt of what group the word "kyke" refers to, even if applied to someone else?

How about "ni**ers"? What about "whites who want to be like them," or "whi**ers"?

How about "fag"?

What about "cunt"?

I understand wanting to defuse certain words, but those words have an undeniable history as being hateful. Despite anyone's good intentions in trying to defuse those words, it is unlikely any of you would call the pastor of your church any of these words to his or her face.

Or one of your parents.

Or the owner of your company.

And, if any of you have the common sense to *not* do such a thing, then you have to acknowledge that there are powerful reasons why you wouldn't do that.

You don't want to get tossed out of your church.

You don't want your parents to take offense.

You don't want to lose your job. 

And you know that making semantic arguments, about how the words themselves don't mean anything, just won't work when you're appealing denial of unemployment benefits, and trying to explain why you weren't terminated for cause for calling your boss a fag. 

----

I respect you all, but it seems like the discussion went off course for a trivial reason. If calling someone you don't know a "fag" could be considered an insult, if you wouldn't call your boss a "fag" in front of his wife, then your hesitation to do so is your clue that the word is definitely pejorative.

And, if you don't have that clue, good luck with the unemployment process. *laugh*


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

I couldn't agree more, Explorer.

I understand the negativity behind all these words, regardless of original intention. I do think it was a rather silly thing to get caught up on in this thread...


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

I thought it an odd thing for Variant to bother to pick up on amidst a conversation hoping that a transexual didn't get a hard time from bigots, certainly.


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## Curt (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> I thought it an odd thing for Variant to bother to pick up on amidst a conversation hoping that a transexual didn't get a hard time from bigots, certainly.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 16, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Fucking idiot, this is clearly a troll.



Actually, it's not. I checked out Keith's page when I saw this thread, he did tweet he was keeping his penis.


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## ridner (Jul 16, 2011)

He's my tangerine


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## DLG (Jul 16, 2011)

RevDrucifer said:


> Actually, it's not. I checked out Keith's page when I saw this thread, he did tweet he was keeping his penis.



serious question, this makes him technically just a cross-dresser? Or if has breast implants he's a shemale? the semantics are fairly confusing.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

It makes her whatever she wants to be, really. Technically she's a pre op transexual, I suppose.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> If someone says something daft they should be called on it.
> 
> The negativity of the words exists purely because of their being used to mean homosexual. If I call a person a fag anyone who thinks they should not take it as an intended insult because I might actually mean they're a cigarette or a bundle of sticks is a fucking idiot.



He didn't say anything daft, you just didn't agree with it. You also called him a cretin. You are in the wrong here, step down.

When someone uses the word "gay" in a negative context, the origin of it is irrelevant. What matters is the thought process involved and what the person using it means. How many people actually think about homosexuals when the word is used? How many people actually pin a negative context on homosexuality when they use the word? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the time it's said in passing with absolutely no negative context applied to homosexuality at all, they are just using a commonly used word to describe a situation. The word is just a medium for expression. For what it's worth, I think you're an idiot too. 

You're almost certainly going to get banned if you continue posting in the fashion that you've posted in so far. Chill out and think before you post.



RevDrucifer said:


> Actually, it's not. I checked out Keith's page when I saw this thread, he did tweet he was keeping his penis.



I didn't mean him saying he's keeping his penis, I mean him saying that he is now a woman.



DLG said:


> serious question, this makes him technically just a cross-dresser? Or if has breast implants he's a shemale? the semantics are fairly confusing.



Exactly. He is still a male. This is just a publicity stunt IMO.


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 16, 2011)

'Gay' used to mean something that is happy, a bit showy or camp. It was the used to refer to homosexual people due to the stereotypical view of them being camp and feminin. So by calling a homosexual person gay you are actually feeding a stereotype, even though it is a widely accepted term to use now.

The meanings of words and how we use them now change. I say stuff is gay quite a lot, but I don't even think about it in a homosexual sense. The two don't link for me. It's the context in which you use the word.

But yeah...slightly OT.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> He didn't say anything daft, you just didn't agree with it. You also called him a cretin. You are in the wrong here, step down.
> 
> When someone uses the word "gay" in a negative context, the origin of it is irrelevant. What matters is the thought process involved and what the person using it means. How many people actually think about homosexuals when the word is used? How many people actually pin a negative context on homosexuality when they use the word? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the time it's said in passing with absolutely no negative context applied to homosexuality at all, they are just using a commonly used word to describe a situation. The word is just a medium for expression. For what it's worth, I think you're an idiot too.
> 
> You're almost certainly going to get banned if you continue posting in the fashion that you've posted in so far. Chill out and think before you post.



I'm overcome with indifference.

I didn't call him a cretin, I said arguing that those words aren't pejoratives is cretinous, which I don't think he was _really_ doing.

For what it's worth, I think it's often a good idea to read the following posts before responding, which it doesn't read like you've done.

If my fashion of posting is likely to see me banned, perhaps I should fill all my posts with emoticons and stick a disclaimer in my sig like I have to on another, sometimes shorn of humour forum, reminding people to assume all words in the post above are jovial. But having looked around this forum for some time before joining, I didn't think it likely that people would take exception to my simply writing the way I speak and crossing my fingers that most people would "get it", as it were.






> I didn't mean him saying he's keeping his penis, I mean him saying that he is now a woman.
> 
> Exactly. He is still a male. This is just a publicity stunt IMO.



She might be biologically male, but if she feels she is now a woman and wants to live as one, then that's what she is.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> 'Gay' used to mean something that is happy, a bit showy or camp. It was the used to refer to homosexual people due to the stereotypical view of them being camp and feminin. So by calling a homosexual person gay you are actually feeding a stereotype, even though it is a widely accepted term to use now.
> 
> The meanings of words and how we use them now change. I say stuff is gay quite a lot, but I don't even think about it in a homosexual sense. The two don't link for me. It's the context in which you use the word.
> 
> But yeah...slightly OT.



This man has a brain, somebody fetch him a beer quickly.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> I'm overcome with indifference.
> 
> I didn't call him a cretin, I said arguing that those words aren't pejoratives is cretinous, which I don't think he was _really_ doing.
> 
> ...



You indirectly called him a cretin and you indirectly called me a fucking idiot. Don't try to squirm your way out of that.

For your information, I read all of the responses before posting.

The last part I can see where you're coming from, but it doesn't excuse what you've exhibited thus far.


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## chronocide (Jul 16, 2011)

Trying to squirm out of it? Aye, very good...

Stating someone's opinion is stupid or whatever is not the same as saying they're stupid. I don't think you could argue I even indirectly called you an idiot, unless you were intending on trying to claim that if someone calls you a fag they might mean you're a bundle of sticks. I made that point precisely because of it's absurdity, and anyone who did try to argue the toss would be, I think undeniably, an idiot.

If I had called you an idiot however, you should of course treated it with all the indifference I did when you called me one.

I'm not sure what I've exhibited aside from one throwaway comment in this thread that has caused you such consternation? I hope I've not said anything nearly so potentially offensive as saying someone's change in gender identity is a publicity stunt, though.

And I'll leave it at that (unless whoever it was I quoted in the first place responds to me directly) and everyone can go back to chatting about how Keith the man is now Mina the woman and more power to her.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Trying to squirm out of it? Aye, very good...
> 
> Stating someone's opinion is stupid or whatever is not the same as saying they're stupid. I don't think you could argue I even indirectly called you an idiot, unless you were intending on trying to claim that if someone calls you a fag they might mean you're a bundle of sticks. I made that point precisely because of it's absurdity, and anyone who did try to argue the toss would be, I think undeniably, an idiot.
> 
> ...



What I was saying was clear. You then proceeded to state that anyone that thinks what I made it clear that I think is a fucking idiot. You are therefore calling me a fucking idiot. It really is that simple. I did not take offense to it, but you needed to know that you were being unreasonable to both I and Variant and were not posting within forum spirit.

You are perfectly entitled to think what you think. So am I and so is Variant. "Calling people out" on things that you think are daft is futile as despite not agreeing it is extremely unlikely to change their viewpoint. Stating that you find his post strange denotes that you misunderstood and you have therefore likely called someone a cretin for a post you didn't understand.

I have no problem with you, you seem intelligent, but generally the way that you have posted so far isn't considered acceptable. There is potential here to get on, let's not continue down a negative path.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 16, 2011)

Guys, chill on the semantics.

Fag is a stick, a twig, a kindling. It CONNOTES brittle, weak, pliable. It already HAD a negative connotation. And when it was common to bash homosexuals, it was a derogatory term aimed toward THEM for their stereotype of frailty, weakness, and femininity. It was ALSO an acceptable term used against my fellow buddies when I was 8 years old playing basketball. Was I implying a sexual connotation toward an 8 year old friend? No. Was the person I learned the word from? Maybe, who gives a shit.

I've been called an asshole. It didn't end my life. It's just a WORD. Words can have plenty of connotation. I can say "have a GREAT day, SIR" in a manner that would indicate that I wish ANYTHING but that to happen. It's not the words, it's the intent. 

I like the word faggot. I've been using it since long before I was old enough to understand the homophobic connotation it carried. Now I'm old enough to just not give a shit. If you're offended by my words, it's your own insecurities I assure you, because there is no intended hatred in them.

I wear my aggressive and argumentative nature very outwardly, and because of that I accept and understand when I occasionally get called a dick,  an asshole, or a jerk. I don't get mad. So why if one chooses to identify themselves by their sexuality would someone then get so upset and angry they are called a fag? 

I can't help but think of William Dafoe in Boondock Saints, where he calls his male lover a "fag" for wanting to cuddle after sex.



TLDR - They're just words, get over it. If you don't want to be offended, don't put wear your views and preferences on your sleeve. That is TRUE equality. Anything else is special treatment.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2011)

ArrowHead said:


> Guys, chill on the semantics.
> 
> Fag is a stick, a twig, a kindling. It CONNOTES brittle, weak, pliable. It already HAD a negative connotation. And when it was common to bash homosexuals, it was a derogatory term aimed toward THEM for their stereotype of frailty, weakness, and femininity. It was ALSO an acceptable term used against my fellow buddies when I was 8 years old playing basketball. Was I implying a sexual connotation toward an 8 year old friend? No. Was the person I learned the word from? Maybe, who gives a shit.
> 
> ...



Intent, exactly my man. I couldn't agree more.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 16, 2011)

Straight white guys don't get why disparaging an entire race/group of people based on something they can't help is immensely shitty?

Shocker. 

Hey guys, are your grandmothers still alive? If not, how would you like if I threw around the phrase "dead grandmother having asshole" all the time. Why get bothered, they're just words? I don't see what the big deal is, my grandmother's still alive so this thing I have no control over doesn't effect me, and I think I'll be proud and happy to continue ignoring how it could make other people feel (I wonder how many people have killed themselves for being called dead grandmother having assholes...  )and keep saying it. 

What's wrong with the term dead grandmother having asshole? I don't see an issue, it sure doesn't effect me, everyone else should get over it.


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## Valserp (Jul 16, 2011)

Not really surprised...

I totally thought that he is a homosexual/tranny in hiding when I watched this video a couple of years ago


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## CD1221 (Jul 16, 2011)

^ how did you get that idea from that video?


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## tacotiklah (Jul 17, 2011)

As a bisexual male that has recently come out, let me share my views:

I notice a lot of unwitting transphobia in here. Let me set the record straight. Keith goes by Mina now. Mina prefers to be identified as female. So if you respect her, please refer to her as such. To not to so is considered transphobic and most disrespectful. I get that you guys dont understand, hence why Im setting the record straight. Note also that you are not required to understand it; just to accept her for who she is. The mental hell involved with coming out is extreme, and that word still falls short of describing it. The fact that she went public with this is a testament to her courage. And yes she would be considered a preop m2f transgendered person. Id prefer to just call her Mina. Easier to say and demonstrates a lot more tolerance and understanding.

As for the word fag. It all comes down to 3 factors:
-context
-intent
-the feelings of the people that are within earshot of the word


In my case, I tell gay jokes with my friends and laugh with them. I have a jewish friend that would laugh at jokes about being greedy and the like. How is this possible? The truth is that we know each other well enough to know that they are joking and that we are close enough to render the meaning of those words useless. But if I hear a random person call me a fag, I would beat the ever loving shit out of them. If I could tell it was a joke, then Id shrug it off and laugh. Point being, make sure you take others thoughts and feelings into consideration before wantonly throwing out words like fag, faggot, gay, queer, homo, ass clown, dick jockey, fudgepacker, dyke, clam dipper, carpet muncher, cocksucker, knob nubbler, etc. Thank you.


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## Explorer (Jul 17, 2011)

ArrowHead said:


> Guys, chill on the semantics.
> 
> ...I wear my aggressive and argumentative nature very outwardly, and because of that I accept and understand when I occasionally get called a dick, an asshole, or a jerk. I don't get mad. So why if one chooses to identify themselves by their sexuality would someone then get so upset and angry they are called a fag?
> 
> ...TLDR - They're just words, get over it. If you don't want to be offended, don't put wear your views and preferences on your sleeve. That is TRUE equality. Anything else is special treatment.



Er... so, basically, you acting like an ass and not having respect for others, flinging insults, is true equality. I'd say it's more like douchebaggery. 

How does your boss take you inflicting that equality on him or her? Or... do you lack the courage of those convictions when it comes to situations where you lack the power over the other person? To me, that whole kiss up, kick down ethic would also indicate douchebaggery... and more than a bit of cowardice. You're not showing true equality to others at all. 

One person's "regular treatment, but with different treatment where one wants to gain something" is another person's "kissing ass and sucking up," but whatever works....

----

ghstofperdition wrote a lot of what I was about to introduce. Good on you, friend.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 17, 2011)

highlordmugfug said:


> Straight white guys don't get why disparaging an entire race/group of people based on something they can't help is immensely shitty?
> 
> Shocker.
> 
> ...



For me it comes down to being able to laugh at yourself, if you can't laugh at what you are then I think that's very sad. I am part of no minority and therefore have not suffered what minorities may find themselves up against, but that doesn't automatically mean that I haven't had huge obstacles in my life which I overcame and can now laugh at myself.

I think a lot of it stems from insecurity about oneself and it doesn't just affect you, it also affects others you come into contact with. Therefore by not making an effort to come to terms with what you are, you are not only being selfish but you are also choosing to keep yourself in a place where you are negatively impacted by something that doesn't have to negatively impact you. Getting over it and laughing at it serves both you and everyone you come into contact with, it's the logical choice.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 17, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> For me it comes down to being able to laugh at yourself, if you can't laugh at what you are then I think that's very sad. I am part of no minority and therefore have not suffered what minorities may find themselves up against, but that doesn't automatically mean that I haven't had huge obstacles in my life which I overcame and can now laugh at myself.
> 
> I think a lot of it stems from insecurity about oneself and it doesn't just affect you, it also affects others you come into contact with. Therefore by not making an effort to come to terms with what you are, you are not only being selfish but you are also choosing to keep yourself in a place where you are negatively impacted by something that doesn't have to negatively impact you. Getting over it and laughing at it serves both you and everyone you come into contact with, it's the logical choice.



This I can actually agree with. I found that humor REALLY helps in dealing with personal insecurities regarding sexuality. But again, it comes down to where a person is mentally at in their journey of processing and accepting that they are lgbt. During the first two weeks of coming out to myself, any joke involving or even having knowledge of, my bisexuality would make my hands shake, my heart beat twice as fast and make me very naseous. In the case of a joke, Id also feel rage.

Now a month later, Im comfortable enough to laugh it off. Recognize that this process continues until the day that that person dies. It can take them DECADES to get to a point where jokes are acceptable. You are absolutely correct in saying that it comes down to personal insecurities, but understand that ALL lgbt people are insecure about it and to varying degrees. Tbvh, here in America, there is good reason to be. We are constantly put down, belittled, discriminated, and even legislated against. I could not accept myself for years owing to that fact. So please try to understand why it is harder to deal with than you might think at first.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 17, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Er... so, basically, you acting like an ass and not having respect for others, flinging insults, is true equality. I'd say it's more like douchebaggery.
> 
> How does your boss take you inflicting that equality on him or her? Or... do you lack the courage of those convictions when it comes to situations where you lack the power over the other person? To me, that whole kiss up, kick down ethic would also indicate douchebaggery... and more than a bit of cowardice. You're not showing true equality to others at all.
> 
> ...



You edited my quote, and misunderstood it entirely. I use plenty of words myself, why would you feel the need to put words in my mouth or reinterpret what I say? I never said acting like an ass = equality, how the hell did you get that?

I won't even bother explaining it to you, we've gone off topic enough. 


[edit] - actually, I WILL explain, since your misquoting and misinterpretation might give others the wrong idea as well:

Equality means you have the same rights as I do. That means you have not only an equal right to proclaim whatever you want, but also an equal right to KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. And there are ramifications that come with BOTH choices. You tell me you're gay? You might get called a fag. You tell me you like tubes over SS? I might call you a toob snob. You prefer ford to Chevy? Douche.

Point being, if you don't want criticism for ANYTHING, you don't wear that thing outwardly. If you DO publicize something, you are opening yourself to criticism, argument, and adversity. If your reaction is to attack the CRITICS, or the WORDS, you are not secure enough to wear that thing publicly yet. Don't take away MY words in the name of equality. I'm sure we don't want to continue along the lines of taking things AWAY from people.

Get it now? Equal rights, equal expectations of adversity, equally open to criticism. Period. Anything outside that, any attempt to avoid criticism, derogatory words, etc... is not pursuit of equality. It's pursuit of special treatment.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 17, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> I notice a lot of unwitting transphobia in here. Let me set the record straight. Keith goes by Mina now. Mina prefers to be identified as female. So if you respect her, please refer to her as such



Keith released a large body of work as Keith. And it effected and became a large part of many of our lives. He will continue to be Keith to some of us, just as River Runs Red will be fresh and new to someone hearing it for the first time TODAY, despite it's release being long ago.

Keith should be aware of this. If we met in person and he/she introduced themselves as Mina, I would address him as such. However, when discussing the musician we grew up loving and listening to, I'm pretty sure the dude's name was KEITH. You cannot reinvent yourself and erase history. 

It's not disrespect. It's more like people referring to all portable players in the 80's as walkmen, or all adhesive bandages as "Band aids". It's habit, there will be a lot of people still referring to "him" and "Keith" for the rest of his life, and he should be comfortable with that. It's part of life. I'm sure after "Mina" releases enough albums as "Mina", there will be a whole legion of "Mina" fans on this board who don't even know who "Keith" is. Kinda like how no one seems to remember the first singer of Arch Enemy anymore.


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 17, 2011)

I'll be honest I think that's kinda bullshit. Just because someone is a certain way and is open about it, doesn't give you a right to tear them down for it. Whatever happened to I don't know, being nice? Sure I'll rip into certain minorities or whatever now and then, but I am rarely serious and never say it in front of those I think it may offend. Asking someone not to be a dick isn't asking for special treatment, it's simply asking for a bit of class and respect. If that is too much for you to give then I honestly feel sorry for you.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 17, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> I'll be honest I think that's kinda bullshit. Just because someone is a certain way and is open about it, doesn't give you a right to tear them down for it




You're absolutely right. Morally. But the reality is, there are people that will tear you down for a lot of things. 

And there's nothing wrong at all with ASKING people to be nice. Expecting it, however, is not something realistic. Again, on ANY subject. Not just sexual preference. It just seems that when it's the latter, suddenly people's expectations from other people change drastically. I find that unfair. you don't?


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 17, 2011)

ArrowHead said:


> You're absolutely right. Morally. But the reality is, there are people that will tear you down for a lot of things.
> 
> And there's nothing wrong at all with ASKING people to be nice. Expecting it, however, is not something realistic. Again, on ANY subject. Not just sexual preference. It just seems that when it's the latter, suddenly people's expectations from other people change drastically. I find that unfair. you don't?


 
I'm afraid I don't follow.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree with you. However, it's an idealism. The reality is that there are people that will shit on you. for liking cock, for liking solid state amps, for liking Fords, for preferring Metallica over Megadeth (how many times have we all seen THAT one here?), etc... 

Some people are not going to be nice, and expecting that to change is futile. Some people will not be considerate with their words, or how they argue. It's the reality. So asking people to be nice and not use a word like "fag" will be JUST as successful as saying "hey I really like Metallica, so please don't say anything else bad about them ever again". Guess what, neither one will work well.

In other words, as simply as I can put it:

If you don't want to hear people bash Metallica or Megadeth, don't start a Metallica vs. Megadeth thread. Putting "please don't bash metallica" just wont cut it. the only way to assure it doesn't happen? DON'T start the thread.

If you don't want to hear people bash homosexuality (or furries, or whipped cream and chocolate syrup, or swinging, or dildoes, etc...) then DON'T bring it up! Keep it to yourself. And if you encounter the subject, AVOID it!

In either case, you cannot reasonable expect people to consider your own heightened sensitivities when presenting their own opinions in their own words. And with these concepts in check, and your mental armor in place, learn to accept the ignorant, different, or opposing just as much as you want them to accept YOU! Jump in, join the debate, be proud of who you are no matter what side of the debate you land on. If my use of "fag" hurts your self image, you're weak minded. And it has NOTHING to do with being gay.


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 17, 2011)

ArrowHead said:


> I agree with you. However, it's an idealism. The reality is that there are people that will shit on you. for liking cock, for liking solid state amps, for liking Fords, for preferring Metallica over Megadeth (how many times have we all seen THAT one here?), etc...
> 
> Some people are not going to be nice, and expecting that to change is futile. Some people will not be considerate with their words, or how they argue. It's the reality. So asking people to be nice and not use a word like "fag" will be JUST as successful as saying "hey I really like Metallica, so please don't say anything else bad about them ever again". Guess what, neither one will work well.


 
I'm sorry man, but hatefully calling someone a fag isn't even comparable to slagging off Metallica.  Those things are meaningless opinions. At the end of the day, insulting someone's music tastes is nowhere near as big a deal as offending their race of sexual orientation. One carries a lot more weight than the other, though you should be respectful regarding both.

Expecting people to be nice isn't an idealism. Making something an idealism would imply that it is out of reach in reality, and being nice isn't exactly rocket science. I expect people not to be fucking rude to me, because they have no reason to be unless I am rude to them. Is that much to ask? No. It's common courtesy and it's called that because you expect it from most people. 

Yes, there are a lot of horrible people in the world, but not having expectations of people to be nice sets a poor example for society to follow.


And yeah it does help to have thicker skin when dealing with these people but tha doesn't give anyone the right to be offensive. You can't be a cunt and then blame the person you were out of order to for being weak.


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## decypher (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm surprised that she's keeping his penis, as most transgender people that are in the position of being able to undergo the entire transition (which I assume he easily is able to do, financially and socially), would do it to end the inner conflicts.

The gay/fag thing is really difficult to judge. For using it in a "fun way", I think there's too much serious background to it, there are plenty of people who do intend to use it as a derogative term, so why keep using it? It's not difficult to apply some social sensitivity without being overly political correct. 

Another thing I've read was a comment about "homophobic metal scene", thats complete bullshit, I came out at 17 after having a few beers too much. There was no "gay" in the metal scene in the late 80s and early 90s, but pretty much every single metalhead I was hanging out with had no problem at all with me and they were the most tolerant crowd ever (except when it came down to the beer brand, those german headbangers.. ts, ts...). Also it probably was just good timing for me, as the huge coming out wave of rock/popstars like Freddie Mercury or Andy Bell/Erasure, Pet Shop Boys etc. just began to take off. Although back then there were plenty of guys who didn't believe me at first, they had their stereotypes of gay guys while I was just an everyday long haired guy with a Mercyful Fate-back patch and a Chibanez . I admit, back then it was fun because of the "shock value" that it did have to some at first, the only time I ever heard a negative comment was when we were hanging out with 6 or 7 guys, and one made a stupid remark, I don't remember what it is, but all of the other guys just told him to leave, that was so cool. But I'm also glad to see how far society has come, back then I had no idea that I'd end up being married to a great guy in Canada, living a completely "regular" life in a family oriented subdivision with the neighbors accepting us as the most normal thing ever (excluding my Blotted Science shirt and others.. ). 

These days it's quite common in music business, although I really don't know any gay shredders...?!

Anyway, I think a wise choice of words should be a normal thing. I can't be offended by some idiot who uses those words in a serious manner, he's irrelevant to me, but I know that there are many kids out there that are struggling with their sexual identity in first place and for their sake I'd rather avoid those terms.


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## ry_z (Jul 17, 2011)

ArrowHead said:


> You tell me you're gay? You might get called a fag. You tell me you like tubes over SS? I might call you a toob snob.



Teenagers don't usually kill themselves because kids at school prefer a different kind of guitar amplifier.

Yes, they're words - but saying they're 'just words' is meaningless. Words have impact. Words can injure people.



ArrowHead said:


> Equality means you have the same rights as I do. That means you have not only an equal right to proclaim whatever you want, but also an equal right to KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. And there are ramifications that come with BOTH choices.



I presume that you're heterosexual. Nobody has ever suggested that you keep your heterosexuality to yourself. You don't have to, because nobody's going to yell insults at you (or worse) for being heterosexual.

You're basically saying "I don't care if you're gay, as long as I don't have to know you exist." That's bullshit.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 17, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Expecting people to be nice isn't an idealism. Making something an idealism would imply that it is out of reach in reality, and being nice isn't exactly rocket science. I expect people not to be fucking rude to me, because they have no reason to be unless I am rude to them. Is that much to ask?



I've never been to England,

And CLEARLY you've never been to Boston.

Point is, YES, expecting people not to be rude without cause IS asking too much. Around here you'll get cussed at and treated like shit just for stopping and asking someone directions.

And remember, even with that being the case, we were STILL the first state to legalize gay marriage.

Does this help explain my perspective on sensitivity?


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## Fred the Shred (Jul 17, 2011)

Honestly, my one take on this sort of matter is simple: her body, her choice. I don't remember any sort of weird side-effect in which someone's homosexuality makes my penis fall off, the oceans boil, and the rise and fall of nations.

Prejudice against homosexuals / transgenders is a direct consequence of religious interpretations, ancient social convenience, and the good old inability to accept difference from the "norm". 

They have the right to say what they want and to be what they want freely as long as other people don't have their basic rights threatened by it, and nothing about someone saying they prefer people of the same sex openly is threatening said rights, so people going the "don't ask, don't tell route" might as well admit they hold prejudice against them based on whatever social / religious standard they may have as opposed to throwing the customary "I'm alright with it as long as they don't show it" remark.


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## ArrowHead (Jul 17, 2011)

ry_z said:


> 1)Teenagers don't usually kill themselves because kids at school prefer a different kind of guitar amplifier.
> 
> Yes, they're words - but saying they're 'just words' is meaningless. Words have impact. Words can injure people.
> 
> ...




1) The most highly publicized teen suicide case in the US was the STRAIGHT girl who was tormented for being a slut and hung herself. So yes, intent can drive people to extremes. Over many things. Not just being gay.

2) Actually, YES. Keep your heterosexuality to yourself. Or don't, but expect me to criticize you. I'm old fashioned. I don't want to hear what you do with your wife, be it male OR female. I don't care, either. I think the entire idea of identifying who you are with your sexuality, and considering it a lifetime choice before even choosing a lifetime mate, is stupid. Hey, I'm hetero today. Maybe gay tomorrow. Maybe bi the day after. Who cares? It's not WHO I AM. Who I am is a much, much bigger thing than that.

3) No, I'm NOT saying that. I'm saying that in life, there are always people that will criticize you. If you don't like it, don't put yourself on the chopping block. If you do put yourself out there, expect criticism and DON'T LET IT HURT YOU. Pretty simple, really.


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