# Should veneers on expensive (ESP) guitars bother me



## Shoeless_jose (Mar 4, 2019)

I have big time GAS for ESP (E-II) Eclipse and Horizon. But hesitate pulling the trigger as they cost around 2500 Canadian money and for something with a veneer that feels like I'm getting hosed. Does the rest of the fit/finish/workmanship make it still worthwhile?


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 4, 2019)

It's probably because how poorly maplebucks are doing right now. That's only like $1800 USD which is where you see plenty of veneers on production guitars. 

Is the model you're looking at only offered in transparent finishes? 

Personally, in that price bracket, it wouldn't bother me.


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## Shoeless_jose (Mar 4, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's probably because how poorly maplebucks are doing right now. That's only like $1800 USD which is where you see plenty of veneers on production guitars.
> 
> Is the model you're looking at only offered in transparent finishes?
> 
> Personally, in that price bracket, it wouldn't bother me.



Well I had pretty bad vintage black eclipse gas for a long ass time.

But then this variant came along and has me very interested.






Just feel i may feel I should have just bought another Gibson at that price point. But I cant shake ESP gas lol


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 4, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Well I had pretty bad vintage black eclipse gas for a long ass time.
> 
> But then this variant came along and has me very interested.
> 
> ...



I'd go for it. 

I mean, EBMM get away with veneers on $3500 guitars, so don't worry about it.


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## Cynicanal (Mar 4, 2019)

Does the solid-color version cost the same? If so, don't worry about it. If not, you're getting taken for a ride.


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## Demiurge (Mar 4, 2019)

^ On MF, the EII Eclipses are $1800 for USD for the solid black and a quilt top so it shouldn't be a big deal.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Mar 4, 2019)

When is a certain thickness of a piece of wood "acceptable" and when is it not?

Maybe if companies started spinning it the other way... "_all the decorative beauty of figured maple, all the classic tone of solid mahogany - veneers so thin they don't subtract from your hard earned sound_"

I should work in advertising!


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 4, 2019)

I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Mar 4, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.



PRS has been doing that forever on the SE stuff. I had a Paul Allender sig for a while that had a really nice quilt veneer and trans purple burst, but also a 1/4" or so thick plain maple top with natural binding around the body. It was already a solid guitar overall, but I thought that was a nice bonus


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## Avedas (Mar 4, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.


Maybe I'm crazy but whenever I see a guitar with a veneer I always think it looks like a sticker or whatever before I even see it from the side and realize it's a veneer. Something about veneers look so fake to me in person and it's really off putting.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 4, 2019)

Hard pass. Veneers are gross on things that expensive. Just make it a solid color.


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## spudmunkey (Mar 4, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Hard pass. Veneers are gross on things that expensive. Just make it a solid color.



Unless you see the edges, they will look identical (arguably likely to actually look even better) to a solid wood cap. Or do you mean morally "gross"?


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## spudmunkey (Mar 4, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I'd rather companies used high figured veneers than average unpredictable tops. They could easily put a 4-6mm thick maple top underneath or at least binding to disguise the veneer as a top.



I think people have the wrong idea about veneers. Some of the highest-grade figured woods are more likely to be made into veneers, for things like suite-matched/continuous door and drawer fronts on luxury/high-quality furniture.

People who say they can tell it's a veneer from the face of a guitar are fooling themselves, or are misunderstanding what they are seeing. It's indistinguishable, unless you're able to see through 1 or 2mm of wood. What you see as chatoyance and depth of figuring has nothing to do with the actual thickness or depth of the wood...it's the direction that the fibers of the wood are orientated when it's surfaced. You can get the same effect on a shorn pile carpet. Colors shift as you calk around it because the fibers are cut on a specific and uniform angle, so colors get darker or lighter as you walk around it.

Like bolt-ons or rosewood fretboards, you're more likely to see veneer on cheaper instruments, so that's part of why they get a bad rap. But as we all know with bolt-ons and rosewood, great examples of all three are possible. The builder just has to put the same attention to detail, build quality, and pickiness in materials as they would all of their other materials and build processes.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 4, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> Unless you see the edges, they will look identical (arguably likely to actually look even better) to a solid wood cap. Or do you mean morally "gross"?



morally.


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## Soya (Mar 4, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's probably because how poorly maplebucks are doing right now. That's only like $1800 USD which is where you see plenty of veneers on production guitars.
> 
> Is the model you're looking at only offered in transparent finishes?
> 
> Personally, in that price bracket, it wouldn't bother me.


I've never heard the term maplebucks before, that's fantastic


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## AkiraSpectrum (Mar 4, 2019)

I get what you're saying, generally you don't see too many veneers on instruments in the $2500 CAD price range (~$1800 USD), but some companies still do it. Ultimately, in terms of build-quality and components, an E-II is more than worth the price, regardless of whether or not they use veneers over the maple top.

I have an E-II Mystique that I love and is an amazing instrument. Sure it has a veneer over a maple top, but everything about the instrument is top notch, and it feels just as good as any guitar in a higher price range. It has the feel and overall build quality that generally matches many high end guitars that I've played (and I've played countless guitars in the $3K-12K CAD range: PRS, Suhr, Anderson, Fender Custom, Gibson Custom, Music Man, Ibanez---Yes a Suhr or an Anderson is a little bit nicer than an E-II but not by much). After playing tons of super high end guitars and then seeing how well made the E-II's are (playing 4 or 5 in a row one day at Cosmo Music in Richmond Hill), the price is more than worth it, veneer or not. I was about to purchase a brand new E-II ($2500-$2800: was debating on an Eclipse and a Horizon) because it gave me that 'high-end guitar' feel/quality that I couldn't help but want after playing all the super high end instruments I had been playing at music stores, that is until I found a killer price on an E-II Mystique in Toronto (before i moved away from the city). 

I'd grab that new E-II Eclipse if I were you (that one is a full-thickness model). Gibson Les Paul's will not come even close to an E-II Eclipse in terms of build and hardware/features, whether or not the Gibson has a 'full/real top'. Ultimately, I'd go out and try some E-II Eclipses and see how you like them in comparison to most any guitar in the price range. Cosmo Music in Richmond Hill usually has some E-II's in stock. 

I think the debate over "maple top+veneer" vs. "lightly figured full maple top without veneer" is an interesting one (assuming the price is roughly the same). Not sure what my answer to that is, and I'm sure it will change from time to time.


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## Strobe (Mar 4, 2019)

The E-II's are great. I own one like the one in my signature picture. Depending on the model, they may have a reasonable thickness maple cap under (or not). If it's pretty and it sounds good - no one else has to know .


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 4, 2019)

I like to think of it as a finish. Is a sparkle paint finish a lie because it is only a mm or two thick? Nah, it's just a finish. Same with a veneer. 

I'm guessing the perceived difference in appearance between veneers and solid wood is that veneers tend to be on cheaper guitars with worse finishes.

I have a couple cheap Agile guitars with figured maple veneer on top of a plain maple cap and the finish looks a little cheap. But that has everything to do with the burst just being a simple one tone candy paint burst rather than a hand dye straight into the wood like prs does.

But I've finished a few test pieces with figured veneer and with the same method as I use on solid wood it ends up looking the same.


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## spudmunkey (Mar 4, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> . Colors shift as you calk around it...



"Walk." I meant "walk around it".


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## Jason B (Mar 5, 2019)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> When is a certain thickness of a piece of wood "acceptable" and when is it not?
> 
> Maybe if companies started spinning it the other way... "_all the decorative beauty of figured maple, all the classic tone of solid mahogany - veneers so thin they don't subtract from your hard earned sound_"
> 
> I should work in advertising!



Guitar Center actually did this with the Laguna Greg Howe sig; and had him cut promos and give interviews claiming that going with a veneer instead of cap was to prevent the maple from “overpowering” the swamp ash body. Of course, he never mentioned how this interacted with the (obviously dovetailed) one-piece maple neck he specified for the same reasons of tonewoodal voodoo.


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## Shadow Explorer (Mar 5, 2019)

Veneers are unacceptable in general..to me.
Never thought companies would use them on such price ranges.
Pretty cheap... Get a gibson or a brand that actually cares to spend 30-40$ more in order to give you the real thing for such a price.


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## A-Branger (Mar 5, 2019)

just because its a veneer it doesnt mean its not gonna have a nice "top"

my guitar is a veneer and it has an amazing 3D depth to it. And I have seen many other guitars the same. A full cap would look the same, it wont affect the look of the top top of the guitar. It would give you the chance to have natural figured binding, or be able to have a figured top on extreme carved top guitars were a veneer wouldnt be able to bend.... But if your guitar comes with binding (other than natural) like on the OP case, then you would never notice the difference.....

about the tonal aspect of having a mahogany body + figured veneer OR mahogany body + maple cap + figured veneer OR mahogany body + figured maple

thats up to you and on the tone woods debate


but you do have more chance to score a nice looking guitar with a vneer than with a cap (for a production model thats it)..... For that price I would be ok with it, and you might not. At that price point its more of a perception value


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 5, 2019)

Meh I bought my ormsby in a solid finish.

Veneers are like buying the base model of a car and gluing a bunch of fake go fast parts on it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 5, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Meh I bought my ormsby in a solid finish.
> 
> Veneers are like buying the base model of a car and gluing a bunch of fake go fast parts on it.



Like those vinyl "carbon fiber look" vents you glue onto the hood quarter panels.


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## angl2k (Mar 5, 2019)

I didn't know ESPs/E-IIs came with veneers lol.

But now that I now, does it bother me? Nope, they still look gorgeous. Plus I'd rather have a good-looking veneer than a bad-looking real cap.

On a custom shop model it would bother me because they're priced much higher.


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## NoodleFace (Mar 5, 2019)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. If they bother you, don't give them your money.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Mar 5, 2019)

Ultimately I think it’s fine as long as they say so but if they’re trying to make you think it’s a cap, Then I call shenanigans


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## TedEH (Mar 5, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Canadian





Dineley said:


> hosed




I'd say we're getting hosed by the maplebucks more than the veneers. It wouldn't bother me at all if I thought it looked good, and as long as the quality of the instrument is unaffected. I don't know how the thickness of the top/veneer/etc. would affect "quality" very much anyway.

To me it's more a question of whether or not it's a case of saving some money on the aesthetic-only detail in order to deliver more value elsewhere (which would be fine to me), or if it's a sign of corners potentially getting cut everywhere. If people are saying they're good instruments, then I personally wouldn't fret about the way the top was done.


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## never_2many_strings (Mar 5, 2019)

Personally, I don’t like veneers on guitars. For a guitar of that price there’s lots of guitars to choose from with solid tops. I’d prefer a solid colored guitar over a veneer, considering all other specs are the same- just seems less cheesey to me.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 5, 2019)

I can't say that it matters, and I don't care. Wood really isn't expensive, despite the big markups.

A veneer is marginally cheaper than a "real" top, but an Eii ESP is a great guitar, good value. The thing you are mostly paying for is the "Made in Japan" (salaries) and the brand. If I was picking about money, I would just get an LTD.


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## feraledge (Mar 5, 2019)

To the OP, the answer is no, shouldn't bother you. Especially with that Eclipse, it looks best with some nice figuring and a veneer is the best way to get it.
I prefer a good veneer to a mediocre top. ESP puts veneers over true maple caps, so you get the tonal aspects of the top and the look of a better piece than they would otherwise use. So kind of a win-win. Granted, a super thick, 3-D top is amazing, but that's why both of my ESP Customs have them. 
I know other brands will use maple caps instead of veneers on guitars in this price range, but I think veneers is also why the EIIs and ESP Standards look much better consistently.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 5, 2019)

And when it comes to the tone wood debate, figured maple is usually soft maple rather than the hard maple used in necks. 

So nothing makes sense.

Veneers are fine. If it looks good it looks good.


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## DudeManBrother (Mar 5, 2019)

I’m okay with veneers; but not with shitty figuring. If your gluing a paper thin sliver of wood to the top of my guitar, please use an exceptional piece.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 5, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Like those vinyl "carbon fiber look" vents you glue onto the hood quarter panels.



I mean I’m being rantier about this then really necessary. If it makes you happy then it’s all good. 


Buuuut. It’s so pretend pretty to me. Why not just have a really nice solid color guitar. Oh because we need the flame or the quilt or whatever. 

This is why Jake Bowen is my hero. Man sees a nice flame maple top and just paints it black.


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## Mathemagician (Mar 5, 2019)

In USD I wouldn’t care at that price range. $16-1800 US is where “nice” starts at retail prices in 2019. So if they put a fantastic looking veneer over an actual maple cap then it’s fine, same tonal benefits plus it looks great. Unlike for example, those $4k Strandbergs that look like they grabbed whatever cap would have gone on a $400 import.


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## Metropolis (Mar 5, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean I’m being rantier about this then really necessary. If it makes you happy then it’s all good.
> 
> 
> Buuuut. It’s so pretend pretty to me. Why not just have a really nice solid color guitar. Oh because we need the flame or the quilt or whatever.
> ...



They have maple caps, similar to hard maple usually used in necks. These are all modified JBM models owned by Teemu Mäntysaari from Wintersun.






Tops are there for looking good and not for tone.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 5, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> They have maple caps, similar to hard maple usually used in necks. These are all modified JBM models owned by Teemu Mäntysaari from Wintersun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then why even have a full cap underneath. 

I know the JBM all have full caps. Jake just prefers to paint them a solid color


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## Albake21 (Mar 5, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Then why even have a full cap underneath.
> 
> I know the JBM all have full caps. Jake just prefers to paint them a solid color


Two reasons. Tone from the maple cap (obviously debatable) and the ability to have natural maple trim.


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## Metropolis (Mar 5, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Then why even have a full cap underneath.
> 
> I know the JBM all have full caps. Jake just prefers to paint them a solid color



I don't know, wood choices can be interesting sometimes. RGA121's are known to have same kind of cap, I had one and don't think it really affected the tone at all.


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## JD27 (Mar 5, 2019)

feraledge said:


> To the OP, the answer is no, shouldn't bother you. Especially with that Eclipse, it looks best with some nice figuring and a veneer is the best way to get it.
> I prefer a good veneer to a mediocre top. ESP puts veneers over true maple caps, so you get the tonal aspects of the top and the look of a better piece than they would otherwise use. So kind of a win-win. Granted, a super thick, 3-D top is amazing, but that's why both of my ESP Customs have them.
> I know other brands will use maple caps instead of veneers on guitars in this price range, but I think veneers is also why the EIIs and ESP Standards look much better consistently.



Exactly, I’ve never had a problem with using veneer over a cap. Can you find an $1800 guitar with a nice top, maybe, but it’s the exception not the rule at that price point. There is a reason the nice tops on my ESP USA and CS also came with a hefty price.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Mar 5, 2019)

angl2k said:


> I didn't know ESPs/E-IIs came with veneers lol.
> 
> But now that I now, does it bother me? Nope, they still look gorgeous. Plus I'd rather have a good-looking veneer than a bad-looking real cap.
> 
> On a custom shop model it would bother me because they're priced much higher.


ESP Standard Series (pre-2012) and E-II's use veneers but ESP Original Series, USA, and Custom Shop are all full tops without veneers. This is the general rule anyways, and there are sometimes exceptions of full tops on lower priced models.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Mar 5, 2019)

I think we have to also remember about where veneers are used, and where our biases on them lie.

For example, you can buy a core PRS USA that uses a veneer on the headstock. In fact, most 'pretty wood' on headstocks in most price ranges are veneers. I've never seen anyone complain about that.

I think as some have said, in the $1800 USD price range, the consistency of a nice 'full' top is all over the place, and most often they are pretty lackluster; therefore, using a veneer provides a more consistent nice look. 

As ESP E-II's are consistently well built, I'm happy ESP puts that money into the construction and other materials, giving us a better quality guitar for $1800 USD than put on a real top which will likely not look as nice and skimp on quality.


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## Shadow Explorer (Mar 7, 2019)

I find hard to believe that such a thing gets a pass. Is it blind faith on a brandname or what?
ESP doesn't throw more money on their builds than any other respectable builder. In fact they are such cheapskates (according to what is written here) that they won't spent another 40$ on a build to have a proper top...


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## AkiraSpectrum (Mar 7, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> I find hard to believe that such a thing gets a pass. Is it blind faith on a brandname or what?
> ESP doesn't throw more money on their builds than any other respectable builder. In fact they are such cheapskates (according to what is written here) that they won't spent another 40$ on a build to have a proper top...



The fretwork that you typically get on E-II's is significantly better and takes substantially more time (relatively speaking) than you'd find on a comparably priced Gibson. Not to mention, in terms of overall build quality you're getting a better built instrument for $1800 USD with ESP than you are with Gibson almost every time. ESP is putting the money into better workmanship and build quality while Gibson is putting in less money (time) on build quality and putting more money into a 'proper' top. 

How does that make ESP cheapskates? It's not like they're offering the same quality and components as every other brand in the $1800 USD price range and using a veneer over plain maple top while everyone else is using 'proper tops.'


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## Shadow Explorer (Mar 7, 2019)

Can you define build quality? My gibson(s) have\had zero issues. 

All guitars are all a bunch of wood, glue and metal in the end. There is only so much you can do with them. 

How can you define something is better in general,U nless you compare 2 specific guitars, I don't think it's possible.
And even then every instrument is different, that's the nature of the beast. 
If something is good, it's good right? 

If it wasn't greed (or marketing tactics involved) there should be a proper topped one that goes for 1900... From your comment, I get that you like them.

Likewise, I like Gibson and Epi, but I bitch about Epi using veneers, they could make plain tops instead... Also they are very capable of producing monstrosities, not denying that. I've been let down by Epiphone a number of times...

I don't dislike ESP, but I still find it hard to believe that they are using veneers on such expensive stuff..


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## AkiraSpectrum (Mar 7, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> Can you define build quality? My gibson(s) have\had zero issues.
> 
> All guitars are all a bunch of wood, glue and metal in the end. There is only so much you can do with them.
> 
> ...



As I've said in a previous post, the concern over veneers is a little biased. The majority of 'pretty flames or exotic woods' on headstocks are veneers. PRS Core models are twice the price of the instruments were are discussing and they use veneers on their headstocks. No one seems to complain about that. 

ESP spends more time on their fretwork (rounded fret-ends, nicer dressing, etc.) and they tend to have cleaner work. For example, I've played countless Gibson's, in this price range and higher, that have had nuts improperly cut, frayed, hanging over. I've seen plenty of Gibson's in this price range and higher with glue all over the fretboards, improperly scraped binding, finish issues, etc. 
While ESP's in this price range suffer from these build quality issues far far less frequently. 

Also, the choice to do a maple top + veneer vs. a proper top isn't a simple 1:1 in terms of aesthetics. Lots of manufacturers (lets just stick with Gibson for ease) that use a proper top will result in tops that are less consistent in figuring amount etc. (unless you pay a much higher upcharge to guarantee higher quality figured tops) 
And in this price-range your typical Les Paul will come with a plain maple top (no flame/quilt) anyways, and if you find some with flame it's often a low quality flame.


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## Shadow Explorer (Mar 8, 2019)

The comment about the frequency of qc issues seems fair. You have the choice not to get a "bad" Gibson though, unless you cannot help but order online. 

Headstock veneer is more like a structural-functional thing. Nobody would like to have an extra thin piece of wood sticking out of the neck. It seems logical to want to use a thinner piece there, to keep the core neck material intact under the nut area as thick as possible. 

The rest that you say, is pretty much personal preference, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, any veneered top is ugly to me, not because of the final result, but because it would bug to know what's underneath... 

I don't appreciate "manufactured" perfection,that's what I think about veneers. If the price of the guitar was 400$, yeah ok. But at this price point, they have already headroom for profit anyways, they don't have to cut corners, it's just that they decided that at this money tier, you don't get the proper thing.


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## angl2k (Mar 8, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> Can you define build quality? My gibson(s) have\had zero issues.
> 
> All guitars are all a bunch of wood, glue and metal in the end. There is only so much you can do with them.
> 
> ...


 I get that you like Gibson it's a personal preference. But calling ESP greedy when a 2019 standard sets you back 3000+ euros.. I'll stick to my 2000 euro ESP with veneer... no maple cap is gonna cost a thousand bucks.


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## angl2k (Mar 8, 2019)

Double post


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 8, 2019)

Just so we're clear, pieces of highly figured maple that are thick enough for a "proper top" are a whole lot more than 40 dollars.


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## Casper777 (Mar 8, 2019)

Would be happy with a super nice veener on a plain maple cap even on an expensive guitar...

I also allows to have more exotic wood figuring and keeping tha benefit of a maple top. the rest is snobism... and we all know guitarist are the snobest of the snobest


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## Shadow Explorer (Mar 8, 2019)

@LiveOVErdrive To a company that buys huge supplies of it, not really.
I got this one for 100$, it was an inch thick.
Yeah I like gibson, but I don't have a horse in the race... Instead of guitars I'm after blocks of wood...

I cannot justify a veneer even on a 500$ guitar, have some nice plain wood and love it for what it is.
I'm just surprised that: 
a) a company does it at such a price point, and 
b) some of you do find it ok to be like that... 

If enough of you buy into this, other companies will follow suit, hey it's cheaper for them, then guitars that do have the real thing will be inflated even more... for nothing.


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## sezna (Mar 8, 2019)

I don't mind veneers. I don't care about having a maple cap or not, and if it is just for visual effect, I don't see a problem with it. I mean, we paint guitars, why can't we apply glorified wallpaper (veneers) to them?


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## budda (Mar 8, 2019)

Sounds like the OP should buy a uses PRS singlecut for $2200


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## tedtan (Mar 8, 2019)

How thick are we talking for a piece of wood to be considered a veneer?

At some point, you could consider a Tom Anderson Drop Top, a Suhr Modern, or a Jackson Custom Shop to have veneers, and those are not inexpensive instruments (typically starting between $3,000 and 4,000, sometimes quite a bit more).


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 8, 2019)

tedtan said:


> How thick are we talking for a piece of wood to be considered a veneer?
> 
> At some point, you could consider a Tom Anderson Drop Top, a Suhr Modern, or a Jackson Custom Shop to have veneers, and those are not inexpensive instruments (typically starting between $3,000 and 4,000, sometimes quite a bit more).



Ehh. Those tops aren’t as thick as some Gibson tops but they are all at least 4mm thick. A veneer is like paper thin.


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## Miek (Mar 8, 2019)

if I like the way it looks I don't really care either way


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## Bearitone (Mar 11, 2019)

I don’t see an issue with veneers.
If i can get the same look as an expensive top by choosing a veneer why the hell would i choose a solid cap and a higher price? Be honest now how many guitars have you had or seen where the veneer is coming off? I’ve yet to see a single one.

Unless you’re a tonewood fanatic who can “hear a difference between veneer and solid cap” then its pointless to hate on them imo... unless the price tag is high like OP was saying. Then it’s a rip off.


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## Mathemagician (Mar 11, 2019)

The issue you take with “manufactured” perfection is also one that assumes an infinite supply of perfect wood with fantastic tops is being ignored for veneers due to ease of implementation. 

Basically you are saying that no one should be allowed to buy a guitar with a really nice flame or quilt top, unless it’s a full top because you don’t like it. 

ESP could announce a line with a flames maple top and ensure they all look perfect with veneers or they could buy up all the flame wood slabs they can get and a good portion of them just won’t look that good due to how wood doesn’t always look the same underneath as before it’s cut. So there are going to be a lot of production line guitars going out with sub-par looking tops just because that’s what was available to be purchased. Smaller builders can just buy the 4-10 slabs they want. 

And if you’re picking guitar A over guitar B, aesthetics do come into play. A flat black or white does not hit the same target as one with a cool figured top. 

It’s only “pretend nice” if you want it to be pretend. We’re chopping up wood left and right here and constantly running into issues like pure black ebony not being as easily found anymore. 

Gotta pick and choose something. Clearly that’s an issue for you, but you’re getting mad about how others spend their money just because you value something different.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 11, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> The issue you take with “manufactured” perfection is also one that assumes an infinite supply of perfect wood with fantastic tops is being ignored for veneers due to ease of implementation.
> 
> Basically you are saying that no one should be allowed to buy a guitar with a really nice flame or quilt top, unless it’s a full top because you don’t like it.
> 
> ...



Meh it’s pretend nice because it’s pretending to be something else. 

Why even use a veneer. Why not just print a picture of a fire breathing dinosaur fighting a unicorn.


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## Mathemagician (Mar 11, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Meh it’s pretend nice because it’s pretending to be something else.
> 
> Why even use a veneer. Why not just print a picture of a fire breathing dinosaur fighting a unicorn.



If that’s what you want then go for it. You say that like it wouldn’t be flippin’ rad. 

A full maple cap with a thin veneer will sound exactly the same as one with a “full” flame cap. Literally. It will just look better. 

And if a brand is going to be going through caps for a production model to find only the “good” ones then you are entering $3-3.5k+ territory as the cost of wasted labor/materials will get priced into the cost of the model. 

It’s again about peoples association with inflation. In 2019 $1.8k ain’t shit.


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## sezna (Mar 11, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Meh it’s pretend nice because it’s pretending to be something else.
> 
> Why even use a veneer. Why not just print a picture of a fire breathing dinosaur fighting a unicorn.



People also print pictures onto guitars, or in fact carve entire guitars into the shapes of other objects.






If the wood top of a guitar is a status symbol to you, that's fine, I guess in that context it makes sense that a veneer is like a fake Rolex. But _most_ people don't buy a guitar because the wood is so rare and expensive, they buy it because they like how it looks and how it feels. A veneer is just a decorative aspect, common in many areas of woodworking, and is not usually perceived as any sort of deception.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 11, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> If that’s what you want then go for it. You say that like it wouldn’t be flippin’ rad.
> 
> A full maple cap with a thin veneer will sound exactly the same as one with a “full” flame cap. Literally. It will just look better.
> 
> ...



then we are agreed. Real figured tops for people that like that kind of shit. All other guitars should be solid colors or dinosaurs fighting unicorns.


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## Bearitone (Mar 11, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> then we are agreed. Real figured tops for people that like that kind of shit. All other guitars should be solid colors or dinosaurs fighting unicorns.


Eh. Sort of elitist. 
Nothing wrong with a veneer from a structural or aesthetic standpoint. Period. People that want the real deal can cough up the extra money for it while everyone else gets a better deal.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 11, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Eh. Sort of elitist.
> Nothing wrong with a veneer from a structural or aesthetic standpoint. Period. People that want the real deal can cough up the extra money for it while everyone else gets a better deal.



Considering the fact that I paid over 3k once for a solid color guitar there’s no elitism here. 

My next guitar only has a figured top because it was literally included in the custom order price. 

Hashtag solid color army.


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## Mathemagician (Mar 11, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> then we are agreed. Real figured tops for people that like that kind of shit. All other guitars should be solid colors or dinosaurs fighting unicorns.



Homie I said veneers are fine. And solid caps are fine. But one isn’t better than the other. It’s preference. I swear I’m gonna karate chop you.


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## sezna (Mar 11, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Considering the fact that I paid over 3k once for a solid color guitar there’s no elitism here.
> 
> My next guitar only has a figured top because it was literally included in the custom order price.
> 
> Hashtag solid color army.


How would you feel about a solid flame maple body that is painted a solid color over it? You just, like, have to _know _that the wood is worth a few car payments.


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## Drew (Mar 11, 2019)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> PRS has been doing that forever on the SE stuff. I had a Paul Allender sig for a while that had a really nice quilt veneer and trans purple burst, but also a 1/4" or so thick plain maple top with natural binding around the body. It was already a solid guitar overall, but I thought that was a nice bonus


I always thought that was a very sane, thoughtful compromise to cut costs without really impacting tone.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2019)

sezna said:


> How would you feel about a solid flame maple body that is painted a solid color over it? You just, like, have to _know _that the wood is worth a few car payments.



You mean a vintage gold top?


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## Zado (Mar 11, 2019)

It honestly never bothered me that much. That said, Imho one shoud expect a nice piece of real top if big money were involved.. for me it's like a jewel thing: I wouldn't spend the same for a ring made of gold and a gold plated one, no matter how identical they might look like. Ok, guitars are meant to be played and not shown, but still.

That said, I'm not a super fan of figured tops anymore, I find them redundant, far prefer solid colors , but plain wood are fine option as well


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## A-Branger (Mar 11, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Meh it’s pretend nice because it’s pretending to be something else.
> 
> Why even use a veneer. Why not just print a picture of a fire breathing dinosaur fighting a unicorn.



If the guitar has plastic binding. Theres NO way that you would be able to point out if the gutars has a cap or a veneer. Unless tou scrap the paint on the pickup cavities


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 11, 2019)

sezna said:


> How would you feel about a solid flame maple body that is painted a solid color over it? You just, like, have to _know _that the wood is worth a few car payments.



Fantastic. Just paint it black. 



A-Branger said:


> If the guitar has plastic binding. Theres NO way that you would be able to point out if the gutars has a cap or a veneer. Unless tou scrap the paint on the pickup cavities



You’d know.


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## A-Branger (Mar 12, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> You’d know.



Ok I would play.... How? Whats the visual difference?


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 12, 2019)

A-Branger said:


> Ok I would play.... How? Whats the visual difference?



In your heart you’d know.


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## spudmunkey (Mar 12, 2019)

"I dont like that my wife wears makeup, because I know what she looks like in the morning," is your view on veneer, I guess?


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 12, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> "I dont like that my wife wears makeup, because I know what she looks like in the morning," is your view on veneer, I guess?



This should be everyone’s view.


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## sezna (Mar 12, 2019)

And with that, I vote this thread gets locked up now, before it gets to where I know it is going.


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## Strobe (Mar 12, 2019)

On the surface, I might appear to think that if it sounds good and looks good it is good...

...but deep down I need my tops validated with an x-ray machine so that I know the beauty is more than skin deep. Don't tell the others. I only reveal this to you, SSO brethren.


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## Drew (Mar 12, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> "I dont like that my wife wears makeup, because I know what she looks like in the morning," is your view on veneer, I guess?


Well, not entirely...

A maple top definitely has a tonal impact on a guitar, and 1/4" to 1/2" of flame maple on a mahogany body sounds differently than a veneer on a mahogany body. So, if you're chasing that "maple top on mahogany body" tone, then a veneer alone isn't going to get you there. It's less wearing makeup, than it is photoshop.

That's why I think the approach PRS took on their SE guitars is pretty cool - they made bodies with a _plain_ maple top over a mahogany body.... but then put a flamed veneer over the plain maple cap. That still gets you the same tonal changes you expect from a slab of maple on top of mahogany, but instead of using one 1/2" chunk of flamed maple on one guitar, they shave it into dozens of veneers. To me, that's actually a pretty sensible form of cost-cutting, since it doesn't impact the tone but still preserves the look. I think a veneer alone is kinda cheating since it's too thin to impact the sound of the guitar, but a veneer on top of a plain maple top actually makes a lot of sense.


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## sezna (Mar 12, 2019)

Drew said:


> Well, not entirely...
> 
> A maple top definitely has a tonal impact on a guitar, and 1/4" to 1/2" of flame maple on a mahogany body sounds differently than a veneer on a mahogany body. So, if you're chasing that "maple top on mahogany body" tone, then a veneer alone isn't going to get you there. It's less wearing makeup, than it is photoshop.



If I may speak to his point (and I may do so inaccurately -- so correct me if I'm wrong @diagrammatiks ) it isn't about the "maple over mahogany" tone, it is that the veneer is a cheap impression/knockoff of the real thing and is inexcusible in all configurations (on a maple cap or not), because figured wood is a symbol of value (status symbol?), and a veneer does not carry such value.

It would, in fact, be noble to have such value hidden under plain paint, as that would be understating the perceived value instead of overstating it.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Mar 12, 2019)

Drew said:


> Well, not entirely...
> 
> A maple top definitely has a tonal impact on a guitar, and 1/4" to 1/2" of flame maple on a mahogany body sounds differently than a veneer on a mahogany body. So, if you're chasing that "maple top on mahogany body" tone, then a veneer alone isn't going to get you there. It's less wearing makeup, than it is photoshop.
> 
> That's why I think the approach PRS took on their SE guitars is pretty cool - they made bodies with a _plain_ maple top over a mahogany body.... but then put a flamed veneer over the plain maple cap. That still gets you the same tonal changes you expect from a slab of maple on top of mahogany, but instead of using one 1/2" chunk of flamed maple on one guitar, they shave it into dozens of veneers. To me, that's actually a pretty sensible form of cost-cutting, since it doesn't impact the tone but still preserves the look. I think a veneer alone is kinda cheating since it's too thin to impact the sound of the guitar, but a veneer on top of a plain maple top actually makes a lot of sense.



Yes, PRS (for their SE's) will put a maple veneer on a plain maple top, and they are very upfront in doing so (which I like). A lot of other companies also do the same, and PRS was not the first one to do it, they are just one of the few to list it on their spec sheet.


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## spudmunkey (Mar 12, 2019)

Like Kieth Moon painting his Rolls purple?


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## LeviathanKiller (Mar 14, 2019)

Drew said:


> Well, not entirely...
> 
> A maple top definitely has a tonal impact on a guitar, and 1/4" to 1/2" of flame maple on a mahogany body sounds differently than a veneer on a mahogany body. So, if you're chasing that "maple top on mahogany body" tone, then a veneer alone isn't going to get you there. It's less wearing makeup, than it is photoshop.
> 
> That's why I think the approach PRS took on their SE guitars is pretty cool - they made bodies with a _plain_ maple top over a mahogany body.... but then put a flamed veneer over the plain maple cap. That still gets you the same tonal changes you expect from a slab of maple on top of mahogany, but instead of using one 1/2" chunk of flamed maple on one guitar, they shave it into dozens of veneers. To me, that's actually a pretty sensible form of cost-cutting, since it doesn't impact the tone but still preserves the look. I think a veneer alone is kinda cheating since it's too thin to impact the sound of the guitar, but a veneer on top of a plain maple top actually makes a lot of sense.



If that is the case with what PRS is doing on their SE models, they sure could have chosen a better veneer for my PRS SE SVN. lol

I'm completely fine with veneers if they'll guarantee me in getting a good looking top in a price range where I couldn't be guaranteed to get a nice looking full top. If I'm going to dish out significant money though, in general I would want a full actual top so that the figuring is more unique "fingerprint" like. I ordered an Ormsby with a photo/veneer copper top and while I believe it is going to look great, it's also going to look like everyone else's.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 14, 2019)

LeviathanKiller said:


> If that is the case with what PRS is doing on their SE models, they sure could have chosen a better veneer for my PRS SE SVN. lol
> 
> I'm completely fine with veneers if they'll guarantee me in getting a good looking top in a price range where I couldn't be guaranteed to get a nice looking full top. If I'm going to dish out significant money though, in general I would want a full actual top so that the figuring is more unique "fingerprint" like. I ordered an Ormsby with a photo/veneer copper top and while I believe it is going to look great, it's also going to look like everyone else's.



Afaik 
They aren’t all the same. It’s printed as a big sheet and then cut. So there might be some differences like the pattern might repeat but it’s not going to be at the exact same place.


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## LeviathanKiller (Mar 14, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Afaik
> They aren’t all the same. It’s printed as a big sheet and then cut. So there might be some differences like the pattern might repeat but it’s not going to be at the exact same place.



I guess then the question is what is the quality of the veneers. My PRS' was just alright. Kinda flattened out in some spots imo (it was flamed maple).

Or are you talking about how Ormsby does it?


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## A-Branger (Mar 16, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Afaik
> They aren’t all the same. It’s printed as a big sheet and then cut. So there might be some differences like the pattern might repeat but it’s not going to be at the exact same place.



that was kinda the idea, printed bigger so it could be placed/rotated in different spots. But that would create a problem with large numbers in manufacturing. Its eassier/quicker to have the same sheet and be applied the same. Its also less prone to mistakes and accidents, as the guy(s) who would be doing the job they would do the same task over and over.

The sheets are bigger than the guitar so it might have a few mm left/right/up/down difference but in general they look the same


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