# Why guitars cost what they do...



## darren

Some of you may remember a post i wrote on here a little over a year ago outlining some basic economics of running a small guitar business and why many people's price expectations for boutique or "custom-shop" instruments are totally unrealistic.

Every few months, somebody asks me for a link back to the original post, so i decided to edit, update and re-post it as an editorial piece on the Decibel site.

Why guitars cost what they do: Part I | Decibel Guitars

Part II will be published early next week.


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## Stealthdjentstic

Great read, thanks! But luthers like yourself, roter, and sherman are very affordable compared to the jackass's at PRS


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## darren

Well, they charge what the market will bear. And judging by the skid of PRS tops a local wood shop picked up for next to nothing from the PRS factory, the market hasn't been willing to bear very much lately. 

Their production stuff is actually quite reasonably priced, in my opinion. The custom shop and Private Stock instruments are another story... but if you have the means...


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## Stealthdjentstic

I was referring to the custom shop


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## MaxOfMetal

People will always want everything for nothing.


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## darren

Well, it was partially written to help guitarists understand the economics of the guitar business, but also for small builders (myself included) to help them understand why under-pricing their work is not a good idea. Profit is not evil!


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## Paulfocused

Ah, good read. Thanks!
By the way I want one of those Aviators!!


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## Scar Symmetry

darren said:


> Well, they charge what the market will bear.



Like any business, business is business, no matter what your business is.


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## Demiurge

Great article.

What has to suck, though, is that no matter how many fly-by-nights that come through with undercut prices and ultimately fail because of a lack of understanding of those economics (oh, and also obviously using deposits as seed money and not towards materials themselves), there will be people who always bitch about the high price of a good custom guitar and run to throw their money at the next fly-by-night.


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## Hollowway

^^ Totally. There are loads of builders out there that are just poor business people, too. I'm sick of hearing that so'n'so constantly misses his deadlines because "he's just one guy, and can't manage all of the orders that come in." A decent business person would alter their workflow or hire someone else to take a phone call or something. For myself, I'm not against paying >$3000 for a custom instrument, but I sure as Hell am gonna be pissed if it gets screwed up or delayed because the builder has poor customer service/communication/business skills. So that makes me skittish about buying an expensive instrument, because I've been burned twice in situations like those. As you said in the article, what one builder does can adversely affect all small builders.


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## darren

This is why i have no current plans to become a "custom shop" or even build guitars to order. As soon as money changes hands, there are expectations for deadlines, update frequency, response times, and so on. Just the process of preparing quotes and discussing specs with customers (not to mention change orders once the build is in progress) takes up tremendous amounts of time and energy that i'd rather spend on more productive pursuits, like actually building guitars. 

I'm just not prepared to go there until i've been doing this for a LONG time, and have my workflow down to an exact science where i can reliably forecast production times and delivery dates. Even then, i'm not sure it's worth the potential risk. Life does sometimes get in the way... illness, deaths, other extenuating circumstances and life events can throw small businesses into turmoil, and not everyone wants to share every intimate detail of their life with their customers. I know i don't. 

I'd rather produce short runs of instruments i've spec'd out, designed and built, then sell them when they're done... which is exactly what i'm going to do. My business model is this:

*I design what i want.
I build what i like. 
I take as much time as it takes. 
And i only sell completed instruments.*​
It's simple and straightforward, customers know what they're getting, and they can get it as soon as their payment clears. 

And i get the satisfaction of knowing that every instrument has been conceived, spec'd out and built by me, without compromise, and without the stress of deadlines or keeping up extensive communication with each individual customer. I can truly pour every ounce of energy and passion into building each instrument, instead of trying to manage all the other day-to-day crap that a "custom shop" would have to go through.

Will it limit my business somewhat? Absolutely. But it will allow me to keep the business small and manageable, and have me not go insane or broke in the process, or worse yet, lose the passion for something i love to do, and hope to keep on doing well into my retirement years.


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## gunshow86de

So Darren, wanna build me a custom Decibel for under $1,000? 

Seriously though; nice, well thought out post.


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## SargeantVomit

Hollowway said:


> I'm sick of hearing that so'n'so constantly misses his deadlines because "he's just one guy, and can't manage all of the orders that come in.



This is why people like Carl Thompson charge so much for his instruments, he can make about 10 a year and never has a problem getting 10 orders. He keeps his prices just high enough that he can consistently get about 15 orders a year an still turn down 5. And he now gets close to 10,000 per.


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## darren

Part II has been posted:

Why guitars cost what they do: Part II | Decibel Guitars


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## synrgy

Just read through both. Great reads. Appreciate all the insight.


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## yacker

Definitely well thought out and well written articles. I highly recommend keeping them up for as long as physically possible. It will be a great place where other builders can send potential clients who.....well, fall into the category of needing to read that article.


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## darren

yacker said:


> Definitely well thought out and well written articles. I highly recommend keeping them up for as long as physically possible. It will be a great place where other builders can send potential clients who.....well, fall into the category of needing to read that article.



Thanks for your support, guys! I know my little editorial rants got a lot of support from both guitarists and luthiers when i originally posted them, so i thought they deserved to be pulled back out and given a home of their own. They'll be on the Decibel Guitars site indefinitely... or at least as long as Decibel is around, which i hope is a good, long time... what else am i gonna do when i win the lottery and retire?


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## Phlegethon

darren said:


> what else am i gonna do when i win the lottery and retire?



sit around in a tim hortons drinking double doubles all day?


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## Customisbetter

Darren...

Sometimes i find you to be a pissed off negative douche, ill admit.

BUT...

I REALLY appreciate you making these editorials. Myself as well as many other people have forgotten that a custom instrument is NOT just another guitar. It is a high quality, purpose-made TOOL for a working musician. It is designed and built to fit a purpose, not a budget. 

I used to not care about custom prices, but as of late i have fallen into the trap set my "semi-custom" shops like Agile and others, not realizing the difference in philosophy. 

Excellent job and I will continue reading your postings in the future.


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## wubisbetter

Very nice read, I believe this thread must be a sticky, because most people do not actually understand the expenses that a maker must face until they actually get to read such an article.

This would prevent so many "wow this guitar is overpriced" etc. Which is covering up the threads in this cool forum (just recently in the horrible guitar thread) 

Thank you mister Darren


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## WesleyG

This was eye opening, thank you.


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## Kerry

Great thread. I am often appalled at people who think they can get a 'custom shop' or 'handmade' guitar for ~1000 dollars. 

I usually just tell them that if they were playing a real classical instrument, they would be paying 10x as much for a decent instrument, and that if they are serious about it, a few thousand dollars is really not a life changing investment. Look at this:

Anne Cole, Violinmaker: Violins
This is the first thing that came up when I looked up 'custom violin'.

They start at 18,000 dollars. And that's going to be their basic model. After a few years one will start to pick up the nuances of the violin and realize you want a better one. You can _easily _spend 50,000+ on something like this...


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## bonethug

Point taken, I as a 24 year old guy with a military salary will never be able to pay five grand for a couple of pieces of wood glued together. I'm fine with not owning a custom. What's sickening is that you can make my anual salary in three builds. You builders have a sweet job where you can take a year to build, you get to do what you love, and make decent money. Meanwhile I'm ankle deep in gore, getting screamed at and making pocket change. If the custom guitar market is so bad by all means take my job!
I will GLADLY trade you.


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## MaxOfMetal

bonethug said:


> What's sickening is that you can make my anual salary in three builds.


 
Correction, their business can recoup that amount and use it to pay for materials and offset previous purchases.

They don't just get $15,000 to play with. Heck, back when I was a tech I had thousands of dollars in equiptment, and that's not even counting the large stuff like Drill Press, Bandsaw, Lathe, etc. Then there's rent, electricity, taxes, etc. 

That's like saying Ford gets $20,000 every time they sell a Focus. 

Sure, being a builder has it's perks, if that's the job of your dreams. From there it's like any other form of skilled labor.


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## bonethug

MaxOfMetal said:


> Correction, their business can recoup that amount and use it to pay for materials and offset previous purchases.
> 
> They don't just get $15,000 to play with. Heck, back when I was a tech I had thousands of dollars in equiptment, and that's not even counting the large stuff like Drill Press, Bandsaw, Lathe, etc. Then there's rent, electricity, taxes, etc.
> 
> That's like saying Ford gets $20,000 every time they sell a Focus.
> 
> Sure, being a builder has it's perks, if that's the job of your dreams. From there it's like any other form of skilled labor.



Ya, but dude it's a niche market. Forgive me if I don't see the point in complaining that people want cheaper prices for more. Personally I don't think a guitar should cost more that 500 when produced by a major manufacturer. I can understand business expenses but making custom guitars won't ever be a skill that you can get rich off of. maybe pianos or some classical instrument will fetch a good living.


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## Thrashmanzac

bonethug said:


> Ya, but dude it's a niche market. Forgive me if I don't see the point in complaining that people want cheaper prices for more. Personally I don't think a guitar should cost more that 500 when produced by a major manufacturer. I can understand business expenses but making custom guitars won't ever be a skill that you can get rich off of. maybe pianos or some classical instrument will fetch a good living.



i disagree. not many people will buy a custom decibel, or daemoness, or any number of "niche" makers compared to the number of people that will buy a stock ibanez, but that does not mean the builder cant make a good living. look at prs. i imagine ferrari would sell alot less 458 italias than ford would sell focus's, does that mean ferrari is poor?
on a side note, i think if a builder is into luthiery to make fat stacks, they are in it for the wrong reasons.


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## MaxOfMetal

bonethug said:


> Ya, but dude it's a niche market.



To some degree yes, but overall the custom guitar market is one of the few parts of the industry that's thriving, even in hard economic times. It's nothing new, and there are a lot of shops that have been around for decades.



> Forgive me if I don't see the point in complaining that people want cheaper prices for more.



There is a difference between wanting things to be cheaper. Hell, I wish I could buy more quality guitars for less money. Doesn't everybody?  Compared to complaining about it without really understanding what goes into making a guitar, whether it be a $200 Chinese made Strat copy, or a $5000 USA made, custom Alembic. 



> Personally I don't think a guitar should cost more that 500 when produced by a major manufacturer.



That's a perfectly fine opinion to have. Tons of folks don't see the need to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a guitar, and that's 100% fine. 

Though, could you please explain why you think that guitars can be produced consistently, and with a high degree of quality for so little?



> I can understand business expenses but making custom guitars won't ever be a skill that you can get rich off of.



False. 

Plenty of builders have made comfortable livings for themselves though instrument making. It's not the rule, by far, but it's certainly not impossible. They might not own multiple Ferrari's or summer houses in Venice, but they can make a nice living and have quite the legacy. 



> maybe pianos or some classical instrument will fetch a good living.



Actually, those have both been waning in recent years, and for the last few decades in the case of Piano techs. 

Guys with five figures to drop on Violins, Cellos, and Basses are going for vintage stuff, not new. In fact the biggest companies in classical instruments are making cheap stuff for beginners and schools, not highly prized one-offs. 

As for Pianos, it's the same case as classical instruments. Not to mention that digital pianos are getting good to the point of replacing most intermediate pianos.


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## bonethug

MaxOfMetal said:


> To some degree yes, but overall the custom guitar market is one of the few parts of the industry that's thriving, even in hard economic times. It's nothing new, and there are a lot of shops that have been around for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a difference between wanting things to be cheaper. Hell, I wish I could buy more quality guitars for less money. Doesn't everybody?  Compared to complaining about it without really understanding what goes into making a guitar, whether it be a $200 Chinese made Strat copy, or a $5000 USA made, custom Alembic.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a perfectly fine opinion to have. Tons of folks don't see the need to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a guitar, and that's 100% fine.
> 
> Though, could you please explain why you think that guitars can be produced consistently, and with a high degree of quality for so little?
> 
> 
> 
> False.
> 
> Plenty of builders have made comfortable livings for themselves though instrument making. It's not the rule, by far, but it's certainly not impossible. They might not own multiple Ferrari's or summer houses in Venice, but they can make a nice living and have quite the legacy.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, those have both been waning in recent years, and for the last few decades in the case of Piano techs.
> 
> Guys with five figures to drop on Violins, Cellos, and Basses are going for vintage stuff, not new. In fact the biggest companies in classical instruments are making cheap stuff for beginners and schools, not highly prized one-offs.
> 
> As for Pianos, it's the same case as classical instruments. Not to mention that digital pianos are getting good to the point of replacing most intermediate pianos.



You make a damn good argument but when I read this thread I saw it as a "sit down, shut up and accept the rules I make for lutherie". It's like a huge FU to all of us with horrible jobs and rubbing our noses in the fact that we can't afford a custom. I'd kill to be in you guys shoes.


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## Rap Hat

bonethug said:


> You make a damn good argument but when I read this thread I saw it as a "sit down, shut up and accept the rules I make for lutherie". It's like a huge FU to all of us with horrible jobs and rubbing our noses in the fact that we can't afford a custom. I'd kill to be in you guys shoes.



Firstly, why would you need a custom? If music is a serious career and you need something production guitars literally cannot offer, then the cost of a custom guitar should be seen as a business expense. Worth saving up for and possibly eating ramen for a year so you can better your business(band). If you just want a custom because they're sought after and popular, it might be worth reassessing your needs if you can't afford it. Maybe you decide you need a custom, then you can do what tons of people here do and don't spend ANY money on non-necessities and live like a monk until you can afford it.

Secondly, why should a luthier only charge for cost of materials? Would you work a job where you do 75 hours of work for free, with the money you bring in only going towards equipment for the next job? I mean, landscapers and contractors will charge more than the cost of mulch or cement, are you saying they shouldn't?

I've seen Darren respond to your exact sentiment before, and (to me) it boils down to: this explanation is to show people what is involved in a custom (from Darren). Other Luthiers may charge less, and you end up with situations like Roter, where the luthier charges basement bottom prices and the customers get absolute shit. So if you want that, go for it! There's no reason to bash a luthier for wanting his business to, you know, actually make money, and with the amount of builders now you aren't "locked" into spending $4000. Just know that a builder willing to charge $500 for a full custom probably doesn't respect the craft (or has terrible business sense).

Just my , 'cos I'm surprised someone took this as an insult to their income.

Side note: I make a pittance, bordering on unlivable if I don't plan what I spend. But I'm willing to forego entertainment, fancy foods, drinking, drugs, and more so I can afford the guitars I want.


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## bonethug

Rap Hat said:


> Firstly, why would you need a custom? If music is a serious career and you need something production guitars literally cannot offer, then the cost of a custom guitar should be seen as a business expense. Worth saving up for and possibly eating ramen for a year so you can better your business(band). If you just want a custom because they're sought after and popular, it might be worth reassessing your needs if you can't afford it. Maybe you decide you need a custom, then you can do what tons of people here do and don't spend ANY money on non-necessities and live like a monk until you can afford it.
> 
> Secondly, why should a luthier only charge for cost of materials? Would you work a job where you do 75 hours of work for free, with the money you bring in only going towards equipment for the next job? I mean, landscapers and contractors will charge more than the cost of mulch or cement, are you saying they shouldn't?
> 
> 
> I've seen Darren respond to your exact sentiment before, and (to me) it boils down to: this explanation is to show people what is involved in a custom (from Darren). Other Luthiers may charge less, and you end up with situations like Roter, where the luthier charges basement bottom prices and the customers get absolute shit. So if you want that, go for it! There's no reason to bash a luthier for wanting his business to, you know, actually make money, and with the amount of builders now you aren't "locked" into spending $4000. Just know that a builder willing to charge $500 for a full custom probably doesn't respect the craft (or has terrible business sense).
> 
> Just my , 'cos I'm surprised someone took this as an insult to their income.
> 
> Side note: I make a pittance, bordering on unlivable if I don't plan what I spend. But I'm willing to forego entertainment, fancy foods, drinking, drugs, and more so I can afford the guitars I want.



You've misunderstood me. I said 500 for a major manufacturers product. Im just saying that there are many jobs that suck out there and pay next to nothing. I don't see why he is complaining about the market when he has the sweetest job in the world that pays decently!

On your side note, I don't have the luxury of any of those things you mentioned + the guitars. 

I don't mean to give you guys my life story. I'm only using myself as an example. There just has to be a counter argument. I don't mean to offend anyone's lutherie career but you guys have to admit the job is sweet. Ya there are instances when you worry about the market prices and your business. Just remember nothing is ever going to be easy. With that said I think lutherie is much easier tactical combat casualty care. just sayin......


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## JamesM

There are people who work themselves to death for little or no return.

There are people who literally couldn't spend all their money if they tried and do nothing every day. 

That's just the way the world works. You aren't more entitled than another just because you do something more difficult or risky.


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## MaxOfMetal

bonethug said:


> You've misunderstood me. I said 500 for a major manufacturers product. Im just saying that there are many jobs that suck out there and pay next to nothing. I don't see why he is complaining about the market when he has the sweetest job in the world that pays decently!
> 
> On your side note, I don't have the luxury of any of those things you mentioned + the guitars.
> 
> I don't mean to give you guys my life story. I'm only using myself as an example. There just has to be a counter argument. I don't mean to offend anyone's lutherie career but you guys have to admit the job is sweet. Ya there are instances when you worry about the market prices and your business. Just remember nothing is ever going to be easy. With that said I think lutherie is much easier tactical combat casualty care. just sayin......



I still don't think you really understand the articles here. It's not about complaining, it's about educating. Yeah, some of it can seem like complaining, but that's really not the intended goal. 

I also don't think you have a really good grasp on what being a skilled craftsman means. You don't just wake up one day and you are one. You spend years of your life working towards a goal. Yeah it's not the military rolleyes, but it's not exactly "easy". It might get easier decades down the road, but it's still something that take years to even come close to being "good". 

It kinda seems like you're really bitter about your own career, which you seem to feel underpaid for and that it's a very stressful challenge on a daily basis. I'm not saying it isn't. From the sounds of it, you might just be right. I don't have the hardest, or easiest job in the world, but I don't go comparing it to others.


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## bob123

bonethug said:


> You make a damn good argument but when I read this thread I saw it as a "sit down, shut up and accept the rules I make for lutherie". It's like a huge FU to all of us with horrible jobs and rubbing our noses in the fact that we can't afford a custom. I'd kill to be in you guys shoes.




You have three options

1) reenlist, make some rank, and get paid more. I did ok on E6 pay -.- 
or
2) get out, go to school, get a good job and get paid more.
or
3) shut the fuck up and quite whining about what you can and can't afford. You're in the military, your job is NOT that difficult.


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## Aurochs34

Good reads. Thanks!


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## anthonyferguson

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guys with five figures to drop on Violins, Cellos, and Basses are going for vintage stuff, not new. In fact the biggest companies in classical instruments are making cheap stuff for beginners and schools, not highly prized one-offs.
> 
> As for Pianos, it's the same case as classical instruments. Not to mention that digital pianos are getting good to the point of replacing most intermediate pianos.



I make pipe organs for a living  we've made 3 new instruments in the space of a year and have a 2 year waiting list-not all classical instruments!


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## drmosh

bonethug said:


> You've misunderstood me. I said 500 for a major manufacturers product. Im just saying that there are many jobs that suck out there and pay next to nothing. I don't see why he is complaining about the market when he has the sweetest job in the world that pays decently!
> 
> On your side note, I don't have the luxury of any of those things you mentioned + the guitars.
> 
> I don't mean to give you guys my life story. I'm only using myself as an example. There just has to be a counter argument. I don't mean to offend anyone's lutherie career but you guys have to admit the job is sweet. Ya there are instances when you worry about the market prices and your business. Just remember nothing is ever going to be easy. With that said I think lutherie is much easier tactical combat casualty care. just sayin......



You can hardly fault other that can afford the custom guitars they buy though, that's just ridiculous. Nobody is rubbing your nose in it, that's a terrible mindset to have.

People that make money worked really hard to get where they are, nobody makes lots of money by chance (discounting lottery winners and the kardashians ) and you're telling them now they have it easy?
Any job is a job, lutherie may look "sweet" to you but it;s hard fucking work and takes years of dedication. 
The grass is always greener on the other side


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## Rap Hat

drmosh said:


> You can hardly fault other that can afford the custom guitars they buy though, that's just ridiculous. Nobody is rubbing your nose in it, that's a terrible mindset to have.
> 
> People that make money worked really hard to get where they are, nobody makes lots of money by chance (discounting lottery winners and the kardashians ) and you're telling them now they have it easy?
> Any job is a job, lutherie may look "sweet" to you but it;s hard fucking work and takes years of dedication.
> The grass is always greener on the other side



Also isn't it the case with some of the small builders that it's only a side job? Someone figured it out a while back that the pay averaged out to like $15 an hour for someone doing $3000 custom guitars - for a supposed "sweetest" job that's pretty low, and definitely not enough to live comfortably on if you're anything but single.

E: Also, you won't always have orders. So that $15 an hour may only be for half the year, and if business slows down you're fucked if you don't have a "real" job to fall back on.

(this definitely doesn't apply to all small luthiers, not trying to imply it's a poor-paying job in general)


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## elq

drmosh said:


> People that make money worked really hard to get where they are, nobody makes lots of money by chance (discounting lottery winners and the kardashians ) and you're telling them now they have it easy?






All I do is sit on my ass and occasionally type some strange looking gibberish into a computer, that MUST be easy... right? 

But I *will* rub it in...


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## canuck brian

I'm not really sure what on which landmass I can build three guitars and make my annual salary of my actual full time job. My god if i could do that I'd be driving a Ferrari on my way to my mansion in the middle of the 1000 acre plot of exotic trees i had imported from Africa. I almost work two full time jobs with the luthier work I do on top of my network engineering job I have to finance my passion. Last time i checked, charging even 4000 for a custom guitar was out of the range of MOST people and generally considered really high. 

Is lutherie a sweet gig? To the guys that are managing to make a full time living off it, probably, but my god man, there is no chance that making 15000 - 20000 is the norm for ANYONE. The guys that are making a full time job of it have invested hundreds, if not thousands of hours perfecting their craft and spent some ungodly sum of money on tools, materials and machinery. 

To actually believe that no guitar "should cost more that $500 when produced by a major manufacturer" is a statement that is, at best, ludicrous. The second you get into using higher quality parts, usually manufactured in higher quality facilities on higher quality machines by skilled workers, your costs go up. Cheap, low quality instruments made with lower quality parts in areas of the world that don't put as much work into QC and whatnot can come to you at the price you're wishing.


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## USMarine75

bob123 said:


> You have three options
> 
> 1) reenlist, make some rank, and get paid more. I did ok on E6 pay -.-
> or
> 2) get out, go to school, get a good job and get paid more.
> or
> 3) shut the fuck up and quite whining about what you can and can't afford. You're in the military, your job is NOT that difficult.



I wrote a huge response, but in the end I deleted it and I'm just gonna go with "*^ this*".

I'm assuming he wasn't drafted...

I bought a Peavey Wolfgang and 5150 212 combo on Little Cleaning Party Leader money (E-3... about $900/mo take home, back in the day)


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## bonethug

USMarine75 said:


> I wrote a huge response, but in the end I deleted it and I'm just gonna go with "*^ this*".
> 
> I'm assuming he wasn't drafted...
> 
> I bought a Peavey Wolfgang and 5150 212 combo on Little Cleaning Party Leader money (E-3... about $900/mo take home, back in the day)



I got attacked from everyone for not riding luthier cock.


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## TRENCHLORD

I don't mind if any builder charges $20,000 per unit.
It's a free market, and if I chose not to pay it then i can go with one of the great for the money $500-$1000 asian made models, or I can try building one myself.

Just like any form of skilled labor there is a period of eating it while you develop your techniques and skills.
I can only imagine how much material I'd have to scrap when learning.


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## bonethug

TRENCHLORD said:


> I don't mind if any builder charges $20,000 per unit.
> It's a free market, and if I chose not to pay it then i can go with one of the great for the money $500-$1000 asian made models, or I can try building one myself.
> 
> Just like any form of skilled labor there is a period of eating it while you develop your techniques and skills.
> I can only imagine how much material I'd have to scrap when learning.



well put.


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## canuck brian

bonethug said:


> I got attacked from everyone for not riding luthier cock.



No, you got "attacked" because you're an idiot troll.  You claim luthiers have it easy while you're knee deep in gore. Don't like your situation? CHANGE IT.  

You clearly have no understanding of ANY manufacturing environment, lack any grasp of concepts relating to the creation of ANYTHING and generally come off like some guy pissed off because other people have the cash to drop on guitars that they want while you're stuck playing your Squire strat thru a little 15 watt amp.

Why don't you enlighten me on why people should only be paying at most $500 for "hunks of wood glued together" from larger companies? Please, break down the costs of tools, woods, time spent and other details of the business from the perspective of the mass produced cheap guitars such as Agiles. Here's your chance to prove everyone in this thread to be idiots. 

I'm dying to bask in your wisdom, oh great one.


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## bob123

bonethug said:


> remember to cup the balls.



AM I DOING IT RIGHT?










Such a troll....


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## bonethug

canuck brian said:


> No, you got "attacked" because you're an idiot troll.  You claim luthiers have it easy while you're knee deep in gore. Don't like your situation? CHANGE IT.
> 
> You clearly have no understanding of ANY manufacturing environment, lack any grasp of concepts relating to the creation of ANYTHING and generally come off like some guy pissed off because other people have the cash to drop on guitars that they want while you're stuck playing your Squire strat thru a little 15 watt amp.
> 
> Why don't you enlighten me on why people should only be paying at most $500 for "hunks of wood glued together" from larger companies? Please, break down the costs of tools, woods, time spent and other details of the business from the perspective of the mass produced cheap guitars such as Agiles. Here's your chance to prove everyone in this thread to be idiots.
> 
> As trenchlord put it. It's a free market economy. I wont pay thousands of dollars for a guitar, simply because a guitar isn't worth the price of my car plain and simple. You can try to argue with me that it's worth it until your blue in the face but it won't change my opinion.
> 
> I think it's great that some people have the money for these instruments but I don't. Am I jealous? of course! I'd love to have a set up where I can have everything I want! Who doesn't?
> 
> Seriously costs of wood and parts? If they're so high why would you even consider getting into the business. These tangential attacks on me are getting ridiculous. If your going to come at me at least stay on the topic from the points I have tried to previously make. Character assassination and name calling should be left to gradeschoolers. With that being said I'm sorry for saying that you all ride luthier cock but stop trying to turn me into a pariah for not agreeing with you.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Just a testament to what Darren said:

I'm having a custom built by a hobbyist for ONLY the cost of materials and it's running me in the ballpark of $1200.00.

If he were trying to eat and/or turn a profit imagine what it'd cost me.

Oh yea and Brian is a luthier--a skilled one. Chill, "thug."


----------



## canuck brian

bonethug said:


> As trenchlord put it. It's a free market economy. I wont pay thousands of dollars for a guitar, simply because a guitar isn't worth the price of my car plain and simple. You can try to argue with me that it's worth it until your blue in the face but it won't change my opinion.
> 
> I think it's great that some people have the money for these instruments but I don't. Am I jealous? of course! I'd love to have a set up where I can have everything I want! Who doesn't?
> 
> Seriously costs of wood and parts? If they're so high why would you even consider getting into the business. These tangential attacks on me are getting ridiculous. If your going to come at me at least stay on the topic from the points I have tried to previously make. Character assassination and name calling should be left to gradeschoolers. With that being said I'm sorry for saying that you all ride luthier cock but stop trying to turn me into a pariah for not agreeing with you.



People who buy guitars from guys like me, Darren, Mike Sherman, Myka, Oni, KxK pay for it because they want to because it is in fact, a free market economy, just like you stated. Goes both ways.

Why don't you put down the thesaurus looking up words like "tangential" and actually read what I posted. You yourself said that PRODUCTION guitars should not be more than $500 bucks and I asked you to explain WHY. Stop trying to get a pity parade happening by avoiding explaining your own ridiculous statement and playing the victim card. Acting like you're offended when people call you names after you've told everyone in the thread to stop riding luthier cock and gay ("remember to cup the balls") is pretty sad.

I really do understand that most people look at custom guitars from luthiers (like me) and can't justify the costs. That's more than understandable. I got into the business of building guitars because I wanted to build guitars. Kinda like people who build custom choppers - they did it because they wanted to. I didn't really care how much it was going to cost either.


----------



## bonethug

canuck brian said:


> People who buy guitars from guys like me, Darren, Mike Sherman, Myka, Oni, KxK pay for it because they want to because it is in fact, a free market economy, just like you stated. Goes both ways.
> 
> Why don't you put down the thesaurus looking up words like "tangential" and actually read what I posted. You yourself said that PRODUCTION guitars should not be more than $500 bucks and I asked you to explain WHY. Stop trying to get a pity parade happening by avoiding explaining your own ridiculous statement and playing the victim card. Acting like you're offended when people call you names after you've told everyone in the thread to stop riding luthier cock and gay ("remember to cup the balls") is pretty sad.
> 
> I really do understand that most people look at custom guitars from luthiers (like me) and can't justify the costs. That's more than understandable. I got into the business of building guitars because I wanted to build guitars. Kinda like people who build custom choppers - they did it because they wanted to. I didn't really care how much it was going to cost either.




I used production guitars as an example. 

Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low. 

Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.

costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30

fixed bridge- 30$ 

machine heads-25 for 6

fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.

So all of these materials cost under 200. Add in labour cost from a high tech facility along with cost of electricity & water for the makes. Your not really looking at that much.

But these guitar companies will keep over charging because they know you guys will keep buying.

As for everything else I believe I touched on it all in my last post and I really hate to sound like a broken record.


----------



## elq

bonethug said:


> blah blah blah.








What about the amortized cost of machines? Factory rent? Insurance? Marketing cost? And the ever so evil profit? 

Surprisingly enough - there is no machine that spits out ready to paint guitar bodies or necks. No machine that will install frets. No machine to pick quality wood. 


Perhaps you should only try to speak authoritatively on something _AFTER_ you're an authority, or at least have a modicum of experience.


----------



## bob123

bonethug said:


> I used production guitars as an example.
> 
> Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low.
> 
> Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.
> 
> costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30
> 
> fixed bridge- 30$
> 
> machine heads-25 for 6
> 
> fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.
> 
> So all of these materials cost under 200. Add in labour cost from a high tech facility along with cost of electricity & water for the makes. Your not really looking at that much.
> 
> But these guitar companies will keep over charging because they know you guys will keep buying.
> 
> As for everything else I believe I touched on it all in my last post and I really hate to sound like a broken record.




You're so stupid hahaha.... 

Lets break it down for a "decent instrument" built by a luthier not a mass produced company. 

GOOD tone woods are the requirement for any good guitar. 

Simple hard rock maple neck wood -> 20$ for 1 neck
simple rosewood for a fret board -> 20$ for 1 neck
good tuners -> 45$ for 1 neck
3 peice body blank made of alder -> 60$ for 1 body
decent pickups -> 100$ for 2 humbuckers
decent bridge -> 80$ for one bridge set
good screws and bolts -> 10$ for set
fret wire -> 25$ for 1 neck 
nut -> 15-30$ depending on style
truss rod -> 30$ for a shitty one
springs for bridge -> 5$ for 3
decent pots -> 10$ for 2
knobs -> 10$ for 2
good switch -> 10$ for 1

So thats it right? Thats SHITTY stuff for a bare bones player built by yourself for 400-425$......... 

OH WAIT.....
Router -> 60$
Files -> 100-200$
fret hammer -> 40$
bandsaw -> 2-400$
power sander -> 50-75$ 
Levels -> 30$
measuring tools -> 30$
Air compressor -> 200$+++ 
spray tools for finishing -> 100$
nut saws -> 40$
crowning file -> 50$+
drill -> 50$+
drill bits -> 30$
Router bits -> 40$ for a good set

Then we have consumables. 

Sandpaper -> 20$ +
glue -> 8$
paint -> 100$ (for good quality paint)
thinners -> 30$
alcohol -> 15$




You sir, haven't the slightest fucking clue what you are talking about.


----------



## Winspear

bonethug said:


> Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low.
> 
> Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.
> 
> costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30
> 
> fixed bridge- 30$
> 
> machine heads-25 for 6
> 
> fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.



Go and get somebody to build you this wonderful guitar, then come back and honestly say it doesn't feel and sound cheap.


----------



## Purelojik

not to mention that using the cheapest parts is the surest way to ensure you spending more money on repairs. That is, if you ever get it in tune long enough to finish a song. guitarpartsdepot.com had some cheap stuff from china but they are outta business which kinda sucks now but what to do.

I built a guitar when i was abroad studying medicine using what i could get. then i developed an appreciation for high quality parts. When i came back home i built my own baritone seven string (its in the lutherie + sevenstring section ). The parts alone cost 500+. i was lucky enough to get that hipshot bridge from keith merrow for nearly half the price(120), and sperzel offers discounts to builders so theres a discount there too. the wood i used three piece sapele which was priced lower. Even then with all the discounts the minimum i was able to pull off was about 500-550 for parts alone for the guitar. this doesnt include the money spent to buy new power tools, sandpaper and bits.


EDIT: also the Pair of Bareknuckle pickups in it were 300 added to the price so the actually total was about 800+
i can easily see how if i was doing this for a living i'd have to charge custom prices to accommodate everything, and if i was to order a custom, i'd understand why they charge what they do to a reasonable extent.


----------



## ASoC

To be honest I used to think that all these custom guitars were way over priced and stuff like that.

Then I was like "psshh I'll just do all this shit on my own and save myself some money"

I was wrong. I'm already more deep into a guitar than my best 6 string (granted it was used)

3 piece alder body $50
Maple neck $100
A cheap temporary bridge $20
Tuners $30
Pickups (gifted to me but they cost about $200 new)

I'm not even close to having all the parts I need, not to mention the tools I need to get so that I can continue. So no, I dont think the pricing of a custom guitar is at all ridiculous, also I play trumpet and the production trumpet I want is $3000 street price (I could get a daemoness for that kind of cash), I can only imagine the msrp


----------



## canuck brian

ASoC said:


> To be honest I used to think that all these custom guitars were way over priced and stuff like that.
> 
> Then I was like "psshh I'll just do all this shit on my own and save myself some money"
> 
> I was wrong. I'm already more deep into a guitar than my best 6 string (granted it was used)
> 
> I'm not even close to having all the parts I need, not to mention the tools I need to get so that I can continue. So no, I dont think the pricing of a custom guitar is at all ridiculous, also I play trumpet and the production trumpet I want is $3000 street price (I could get a daemoness for that kind of cash), I can only imagine the msrp



 Once you actually get into the costs, its really eye opening. 

I'll break down a bit of my costs for a pretty normal 7 string with Dimarzios.

Body Wood + Headstock - 2 pieces mahogany - 70
Neck wood - roasted maple with purpleheart stringers - 40
Fretboard - 20 - 50
Tuners (after shipping) 80
Bridge (after shipping) 65
Dimarzio's (after shipping) 150 - 170
headstock decals - 10
Volume pot - 8
3 way switch - 20
graphtech nut - 12
straplocks - 20
fretwire - 10
truss rod - 25
------------------------------------
Low cost - 530 in parts + wood. 

Keep in mind this is before I've spent any time actually working on the guitars aside from ordering all the parts, building relations with company account reps to get ANY price break I can on parts and woods.

In the last month, I had to replace most of my files after working on a couple of necks with stainless steel frets. That ran me another $100. Sandpaper, glue, finish and a legion of other tools have rung up another $400 - 500 and that doesn't include the fact that I've already got somewhere between $2000 - $3000 in hand tools and at least $5000 in power tools. 

To get a price break on Dimarzio pickups for customers, I have to order at least 10 at the same time. Even with the discount, it's still approaching $700 - $800 after shipping.

Then there's the nearly 10K on the CNC. This doesn't include all the programming that is required that I had commissioned as well as getting a LOT of templates made for all the hand work that is required.

$1000 on a 15 inch bandsaw so I can resaw tops now.

The bearings went recently in one of the routers in the CNC - $200.

Honestly, with all the costs associated with it and all the time involved over the years to get to the point I'm at now....I wouldn't change a thing. I love it.


----------



## BlackMastodon

Before I came to this site, I would look at higher end Gibson and Fenders and whatnot (production guitars, as well as their custom shop models) and think to myself, "I would never pay more than $2000 for a guitar, it doesn't make sense to me."

Then I came here and saw the majesty that was ViK, Daemoness, KxK, Toone, .strandberg*, Decibel, etc. and thought to myself, "I would totally pay atleast $2000 for those ."

When I started my first build, I bought a cheap router bit ("$10? Pfft, people are suckers buying these $30-40 bits) and a cheap licensed Floyd bridge. Needless to say I realized the importance of spending some extra cash on good materials and tools.

The funny thing it that when I went on StewMac and was making a list of fretting and nut making supplies, the total ran me about $400 for fretting stuff (and that's basically the minimum of what I wanted, there's a very good chance I would need to buy more stuff when I realized I don't have the proper tools) and then another $400 for nut making tools. That's about $800 for tools that will only be used on half of the guitar, that doesn't include a drill/drill press, a router, saws, chisels, sander, etc.

Even if a builder used a CNC machine to make guitar bodies/necks, those things aren't cheap either, and once again you shouldn't buy the cheapest one you can find. On top of that, it takes time to draw up the plans and make them right (I'm sure there are quite a few test bodies that need to be made before the builder decides it's ready for production).

So if you really believe that a <$500 BC Rich Warlock sounds and plays as good as anything else, then you must be high off your ass or you just really don't care about tone/playability.


----------



## Winspear

BlackMastodon said:


> So if you really believe that a <$500 BC Rich Warlock sounds and plays as good as anything else, then you must be high off your ass or you just really don't care about tone/playability.



*shudder* Every time I remember how my cheap Mick Thompson signature felt, I literally cringe. I've played some awfully set up, dirty shitty guitars but this was literally the worst.


----------



## nickgray

Huh? Custom guitars are pretty cheap, if you ask me. Even if you have a really crappy job you should be able to save about $100 each month if you put some thought into it. In about 4 years you should save something like $5000 or so and buy the most amazing guitar that will last you a lifetime. The 4 years may seem like a lot, but let me ask you, how long does it take to grow out of a production guitar?

Even if you're really passionate about playing and you're able to practice 3, 4 or even 5 hours each day on average, I reckon it would take at least 3 years to get somewhat good enough to justify a custom guitar. And in the meantime, if you're short on cash, you can always buy a solid second hand (an old Ibanez RG, for instance) for ~$600 and simply trade it or resell it if you want to try something new.

I mean honestly, if you have a crappy job, can't be bothered to change it or save any amount of cash (hell, even $50/month will buy you a second hand custom shop guitar in 4 years), aren't really good at playing, well, why the hell would you want a custom?  Seems to me, every single person that whines about the price of a premium guitar have absolutely no idea what goes on into building one and therefore is automatically unqualified to provide _any_ opinion on the matter.


----------



## Rap Hat

For a lot of people, there's the idea that a custom/expensive guitar will allow them to play better, i.e. "reach their full potential". I saw this a toooon in college, and it invariably ended up with the person in question $2-4k poorer and blaming their stagnation on something else. This attitude can lead to bitterness about pricier guitars, as they can't see why something that costs a few grand doesn't make you a better player. Of course there's one guitar that they _know_ will make them better even if the last 3 didn't. 

I started on a Squier and slowly progressed from there, to Epiphone, BC Rich, Ibanez, Gibson, PRS, and now customs. If my skill stagnates I try to avoid the "new guitar will fix it!" excuse, which is why I ended up with a Variax. Whenever I get seriously stumped I just pull that out and see what kind of sounds I can create. Still, GAS is there, and I catch myself occasionally thinking "Hey, I bet I could write awesome riffs with the M8M!" before I realize that I already can with my current guitars.


----------



## JackOmino

darren said:


> Some of you may remember a post i wrote on here a little over a year ago outlining some basic economics of running a small guitar business and why many people's price expectations for boutique or "custom-shop" instruments are totally unrealistic.
> 
> Every few months, somebody asks me for a link back to the original post, so i decided to edit, update and re-post it as an editorial piece on the Decibel site.
> 
> Why guitars cost what they do: Part I | Decibel Guitars
> 
> Part II will be published early next week.



Darren just read your articles, I'm an Italian luthier and totally agree with you. For sure some of your experiences are common to mine so enjoy that I' m not alone when receive custom request for 8 strings guitar at 500$!!! It' s incredible I think these things happen only to me. I believe luthery is an hard and passionate work to do, you must spend lot of years and money in research, experimentation, creation or of specific tools and so on. Luckily all these things are reflected on our instruments. It's exactly what experienced musicians hear when they try custom guitars or basses. They sound totally different from industry large scale productions, they are ready and fast to play, have all an unique character and design. You hear woods vibes. It's true: they cost what they do...
J


----------



## trickae

Can someone justify Alembic prices to me? I don't mind 3000-5000 for a guitar (ken lawrence for example) 

but what makes an alembic worth as much as a decent car?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

trickae said:


> Can someone justify Alembic prices to me? I don't mind 3000-5000 for a guitar (ken lawrence for example)
> 
> but what makes an alembic worth as much as a decent car?



Not all Alembics are five figures, in fact most dealers can keep them in the mid four figure range. If you don't go crazy with inlay or exotic materials you can even get them into the $3k range for the more traditionally shaped models like the Orion, Essence, or Rogue. 

The quote generator is the MSRP (the price no one pays) and is extremely out of date. There are some $$$$$ Alembics for sure, but they're either decked to the 9s or they're super limited editions/show models.


----------



## bob123

trickae said:


> Can someone justify Alembic prices to me? I don't mind 3000-5000 for a guitar (ken lawrence for example)
> 
> but what makes an alembic worth as much as a decent car?




you think a ferrari or lamborghini costs 400,000$ to make?  


They make them for the uber rich, and the uber rich get them "just to have it". Instead of a rolex, get a guitar!, thats all it really is. 



For the cost of an alembic, it better come with a super model nympho for me to justify the cost of them haha.


----------



## darren

Let's not forget the time involved in actually _designing_ stuff as well. Original designs don't just fall out of the sky into your lap.

I've literally spent THOUSANDS of hours designing, refining and redesigning my bodies, necks and headstock, as well as coming up with my naming and identity, building a website, etc. And thousands more hours learning a CAD application and translating my 2D designs into production-ready 3D stuff. And then there's prototyping and other R&D activities. All that stuff isn't free, and my time is actually worth something. (I've been working as a professional graphic designer for over 18 years now.)

Probably the biggest unique selling proposition i have in Decibel is my design work and 20+ years of thought and research that has gone into my builds. And on that factor, you do get what you pay for.


----------



## darren

Also, there's a big difference between being a manufacturer and being an artisan.

Pretty much everything i'm building right now is a one-off. There's a lot of design time and hand work in every build. I'm hoping that will evolve as i get more tools and get my workflow running faster.

There are two ways to go: Be a big manufacturer and do a cheap import line made in Korea or China by people who earn pennies a day (there's your $500 guitar right there), or stick to doing things by hand, dealing personally with every customer, and charging enough money to make a decent living while keeping the business growing and profitable.

The first way is strictly low cost, low margin, high volume. The second way is higher cost, good margin, but MUCH lower volume. 

At this point in time, i'd rather make a living making 50 premium guitars a year by hand than by being a manufacturer of 50,000 guitars a year made by cheap labour with marginal-quality parts and materials in some far-away land.


----------



## trickae

thanks guys. 

I was basing my 'judgements' of the alembic prics based on a cocobolo top 7 string that passed the 12,000 mark before I touched the inlays and neck wood. 

Still I'm sure they make wicked sounding guitars - but alas I'd have to be bald with a beer belly by the time I can afford one.


----------



## bob123

trickae said:


> thanks guys.
> 
> I was basing my 'judgements' of the alembic prics based on a cocobolo top 7 string that passed the 12,000 mark before I touched the inlays and neck wood.
> 
> Still I'm sure they make wicked sounding guitars - but alas I'd have to be bald with a beer belly by the time I can afford one.




Some things are expensive just because they can...


----------



## aaron_rose

USMarine75 said:


> ^ He's got a good point. Anyone know Dan at Oni's phone number? I was going to let him know he has a "sweet job" and that he should do 200+ hours worth of custom work for me for $500. Hopefully I'll remember to remind him how easy his job is too.
> 
> And Thrash... it's Ferrari's responsibility to charge me less... not all of us can afford what they are asking.
> 
> "I don't want to work harder so that I can get what I want, it's your responsibility to make your shit cheaper so that I can afford it". Ahhh kids these days... it's the can-do generation... now get off my fucking lawn.
> 
> /rant



dude this is retarded, i live off of part time bidded jobs which are few and far between and i saved for an entire summer for a strictly 7 8 string, its taken more time than planned to finish that build so i got impatient and started building own 7 string, piece by piece, wood by wood, year and a half of research, the whole shabang, fuck an a, just yesterday i was standing there holding a god damned whale penis in my hand and actually considering it as a nut for my guitar cause im that broke. 

custom guitar is for someone who wants more than the factory offers, its not rocket science, 

plus if u work for the military u get paid just fine yer her house helped to be paid for , school all that shit, what the fuck is what i got to say.

The build price for my 7 string so far is pretty high cause im not a builder registered, all i can do is hope people are nice to me on the phone, if they aren't i buy it for whatever price i can get. my numbers are almost reaching 1000, u add in the hundreds of hours it took to make this all happen to get the guitar of my dreams i have to build it and i have to pay for it and i have to be patient. Hands on craftsmanship is priceless. Granted factory's kick out really good guitars these days, i played a prs Korean the other day and was really happy with it overall, ya i can make music with rocks and sticks but why the hell would i do that when i can give a shit and love this art form.


----------



## canuck brian

^^^ You do realize that USMarine75's entire post was a sarcastic rant, right?


----------



## aaron_rose

do now! hahaha fuck, troll!


----------



## USMarine75

^ 

BTW, bonethug did have one good point though. In all fairness, you really are supposed to cup the balls.


----------



## technomancer




----------



## Konfyouzd

USMarine75 said:


> ^
> 
> BTW, bonethug did have one good point though. In all fairness, you really are supposed to cup the balls.



This goes largely overlooked...


----------



## aaron_rose

ahahaha love it


----------



## Danukenator

I can also say, from having made a crappy body, with a neck I bought from Warmoth. This shit isn't easy. 

Ignore for a moment everything about the actual building part. A luthier has to deliver a guitar with a great setup. There are people who do that alone for a living, that and cutting a nut are an absolute art that require a lot of time and work to master.

Then there is finishing. Buffing is an aquired skill as is applying the actual finish. You also need the means to do these, spray booths are not small nor cheap. When I worked at a small guitar place, they didn't have access to a shopwide ventilation system, constant battle to prevent small dots of dust form getting in the finish.

Every aspect of building a guitar by hand is really time consuming and takes a lot of practice to get down to a science. 

IMO people like Bonethug should try just making a body. That alone will give people some respect for what a builder does.

Also worth mentioning that ERG builders are appealing to about .05% of guitar players. Not exactly the Stratocaster market place.


----------



## The Uncreator

There is quote about all art being priceless, and no price is too high if there is someone out there it moves enough.

Aside for paying for an extremely high quality sounding instrument, you're paying for a unique piece of art as well.


----------



## Sullen

bonethug said:


> I used production guitars as an example.
> 
> Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low.
> 
> Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.
> 
> costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30
> 
> fixed bridge- 30$
> 
> machine heads-25 for 6
> 
> fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.
> 
> So all of these materials cost under 200. Add in labour cost from a high tech facility along with cost of electricity & water for the makes. Your not really looking at that much.
> 
> But these guitar companies will keep over charging because they know you guys will keep buying.
> 
> As for everything else I believe I touched on it all in my last post and I really hate to sound like a broken record.




If I would go and brake down a list of the parts I bought for one of my builds and was to charge you just the cost of parts, on only that you already have a four figure number, get your facts straight buddy


----------



## aaron_rose

ya dude, why put crap on a guitar. sure manufacturers make money. maybe its more than they should who cares. 

fact is as a luthier working a custom you put what the customer wants into it as long as it's within budget. My build if I was't to get great deals here and there on parts would have been over a grand easy. add in labor or around 30 to 40 hours.

these things don't make themselves, 

that being said I am all for saving money by using improvised parts when it makes sense and doesn't totally crap on the build.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Sullen said:


> If I would go and brake down a list of the parts I bought for one of my builds and was to charge you just the cost of parts, on only that you already have a four figure number, get your facts straight buddy





Last build I had done, my bridge cost more than his estimate for the entire project. 

But that's the price you pay when you're in love w/ the lo pro 7


----------



## Van

aaron_rose said:


> ya dude, why put crap on a guitar. sure manufacturers make money. maybe its more than they should who cares.
> 
> fact is as a luthier working a custom you put what the customer wants into it as long as it's within budget. My build if I was't to get great deals here and there on parts would have been over a grand easy. add in labor or around 30 to 40 hours.
> 
> these things don't make themselves,
> 
> that being said I am all for saving money by using improvised parts when it makes sense and doesn't totally crap on the build.


>no fretwire handy
>I'll just use this solder wire
>it's intuitive!


----------



## Orandje

Just to get that right, luthiers actually get tons of mail in the inbox of kids wanting a full-custom for way under 2000$ ?
If I would be the owner of an independend small business and luthier I would totally turn into a grumpy cat! lol


----------



## UnderTheSign

Orandje said:


> Just to get that right, luthiers actually get tons of mail in the inbox of kids wanting a full-custom for way under 2000$ ?
> If I would be the owner of an independend small business and luthier I would totally turn into a grumpy cat! lol


Every craftsman suffers for this. In cabinetry there's the age-old "why would a table cost 2 grand while I can get one from IKEA for 150?" or "I made one from pine myself for 50 so I don't see why you have to charge so much"...

Either don't respond or ask them to tell their dentist that "I ain't paying you 60 an hour, I'll do it at home with a Dremel and some pliers"


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## Orandje

UnderTheSign said:


> "I'll do it at home with a Dremel and some pliers"


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## AwDeOh

UnderTheSign said:


> Every craftsman suffers for this. In cabinetry there's the age-old "why would a table cost 2 grand while I can get one from IKEA for &#8364;150?" or "I made one from pine myself for &#8364;50 so I don't see why you have to charge so much"...





There are guitars, and guitars.


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## RockyStar

Great info!


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## ChristopherG

Legend has it that Pablo Picasso was sketching in the park when a bold woman approached him.

&#8220;It&#8217;s you &#8212; Picasso, the great artist! Oh, you must sketch my portrait! I insist.&#8221;

So Picasso agreed to sketch her. After studying her for a moment, he used a single pencil stroke to create her portrait. He handed the women his work of art.

&#8220;It&#8217;s perfect!&#8221; she gushed. &#8220;You managed to capture my essence with one stroke, in one moment. Thank you! How much do I owe you?&#8221;

&#8220;Five thousand dollars,&#8221; the artist replied.

&#8220;B-b-but, what?&#8221; the woman sputtered. &#8220;How could you want so much money for this picture? It only took you a second to draw it!&#8221;

To which Picasso responded, &#8220;Madame, it took me my entire life.&#8221;


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## P-Ride

It's a shame that assembling a guitar yourself (buying parts individually, whether painting body yourself or not) invariably costs more than buying one off-the-shelf.

I'd love to put one together myself, but can't justify doing that, when I could buy a Gibson or Fender for the same price.


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## Cloudy

P-Ride said:


> It's a shame that assembling a guitar yourself (buying parts individually, whether painting body yourself or not) invariably costs more than buying one off-the-shelf.
> 
> I'd love to put one together myself, but can't justify doing that, when I could buy a Gibson or Fender for the same price.



There are plenty of kit guitars that are far below the USA Made Fender/Gibson price bracket


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