# Some facts about new war



## Gotmer (Aug 8, 2008)

I shudder with horror when hear some people, that say that Russia have started a war against Georgia.. please read it ..

"I do not know how much you are informed in occasion of this situation but I know that from various sources say lies to you and try to incite you against Russia. Yesterday Georgia has begun attack of South Ossetia though itself earlier spoke about reconciliation. In current of yesterday Georgia has subjected all South Ossetia to continuous bombardments from howitzers, rocket complexes "Hailstones", etc. then in the city of Tshenvali which is capital of South Ossetia the Georgian tanks and in already today's morning the Georgian bombers dot blows on cities of South Ossetia have entered striked. The Russian peacemakers have received impact in a back hundred parties of Georgia, on the Russian arrangements where there are peacemakers fire from artillery and tanks has been opened. There is a lot of lost among the peace population and Russian a soldier. Georgia in the impudent image wages war, and not only on fields of battles but in mass media. The Georgian president tries to misinform in every possible way the world having told that Russia the aggressor which has attacked Georgia but it was not and will not occur. Today also the Georgian president has declared the general demobilization by means of which has collected militarians in a reserve (students, etc.) Also has sent them on front and to which most part this war is not necessary. The Georgian militarians having grasped some villages of South Ossetia finished wounded men of Russian the soldier and which most part Russian also the Georgian militarians in a pointed manner showed peace inhabitants to reporters as they shoot on the Russian positions with peacemakers and those do not answer as if they will answer with counter fire that greater war will begin. It is a genocide in the present kind and Russia within day tried to reach all world while all proceeded it and suffered but today the Russian tanks and were put forward to South Ossetia to stop bloodshed and to stop this war and the Russian planes did not bomb Georgia as the Georgian president speaks, it is a deceit by means of which Georgia tries to expose Russia guilty and to set all world against Russia."

Georgia vs. Russia Should the U.S. intervene? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers


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## Azyiu (Aug 9, 2008)

All along I thought it was Russia that started the attack, no?


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

No! ( Georgia invaded South Ossetia, neutral country, that was a part of USSR, and where most of people have russian citizenship. They killed 1400 civil people, 12 russian peacemakers and injured 150 peacemakers. That's why Russia attacked georgian soldiers. And they haven't invaded Georgia!

I think Georgia provoked this conflict. In December NATO will decide, will they include Georgia or no..And they provoked this conflict to show that Russia is an agressor and that they need a defence..Also, USA want to build an anti-missile shield in Europe, and some force in Georgia will be very good for them


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## kristallin (Aug 9, 2008)

Wrong. Georgia did NOT invade South Ossetia, the region is part of Georgia. That's like saying the US invaded New Jersey because they have a military presence there.
Russia have in fact invaded Georgia, who have been fighting separatist rebels in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, both areas are part of Georgian sovereign territory, have been since the breakup of the Soviet Union, and are internationally recognized as parts of Georgia since then. Russia has been launching isolated attacks against Georgia for over a year now, very well documented (How you can claim that video footage of your own planes are "rocket-propelled grenades" and expect people to believe it is beyond me.)
Fact of the conflict is that Russia is claiming a Georgian threat to their citizens in the area to justify a land grab. There also happens to be plenty of natural resources in the area, too, surprise surprise.
Fact is also that several Russian armored divisions have entered Georgian territory in what can only be construed as a declaration of war. Contrary to what Russia says there is overwhelming evidence of Russian military involvement inside Georgia, and with armored divisions crossing over the border there is no doubt who the aggressor is. Russia has a long history of threatening Georgia, and it was obvious to see that they were going to attempt this before NATO membership could be decided.


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

Georgian killed more than thousand peoplem, destroyed capital of region - how can it be unpunished? Most of people in South Ossetia have russian citizenship. When terrorists destroyed scyscrapes in NY, it was a good reason for USA to invade Iraq. Why Russia should bear when their peacekeepers and citizens are being running danger from other country? When I watch BBC, CNN news, I see video, that I saw on Thursday, when Georgia was destroying Tshinvali, and a commentator says there are Russian forces (they entered South Osssetia on Friday) that attack Georgia! Wtf?

About planes - 1. Russian and Georgia have many similar planes, most of them were constructed while Georgia was a part of USSR. 2. Where are damages?


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## nikt (Aug 9, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> Georgian killed more than thousand peoplem, destroyed capital of region - how can it be unpunished? Most of people in South Ossetia have russian citizenship. *When terrorists destroyed scyscrapes in NY, it was a good reason for USA to invade Iraq.* Why Russia should bear when their peacekeepers and citizens are being running danger from other country? When I watch BBC, CNN news, I see video, that I saw on Thursday, when Georgia was destroying Tshinvali, and a commentator says there are Russian forces (they entered South Osssetia on Friday) that attack Georgia! Wtf?
> 
> About planes - 1. Russian and Georgia have many similar planes, most of them were constructed while Georgia was a part of USSR. 2. Where are damages?



no shit ?? and I thought they invade Afghanistan

dude, you so far from truth that this topics name just looks ironic


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## stuh84 (Aug 9, 2008)

Could someone clarify this whole situation please?

I know Wiki is not always the best source, but this is what it says on it

"On August 8, 2008, on the same day as the 2008 Olympic Games officially commenced, Georgia military forces began hostilities against South Ossetia's forces in an attempt to re-establish control over the region. During the first day of military actions Georgia forces killed 1400 civilians and 15 Russian peacemakers by heavy artillery, aircraft and rifle-gun fire. In response, Russian forces moved into South Ossetia and began combat operations against Georgian military forces."


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

nikt said:


> no shit ?? and I thought they invade Afghanistan
> 
> dude, you so far from truth that this topics name just looks ironic



And Afghanistan too.  nevertheless, it was a good idea to occupy two countries .. sure, nuclear weapons, Osama Ben Laden


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## Desecrated (Aug 9, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> And Afghanistan too.  nevertheless, it was a good idea to occupy two countries .. sure, nuclear weapons, Osama Ben Laden



Dude, what the hell are you talking about, I honestly suggest you try and read up on the subject a little bit.


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## kristallin (Aug 9, 2008)

Desecrated said:


> Dude, what the hell are you talking about, I honestly suggest you try and read up on the subject a little bit.



Notice he's never posted here before, and only in this thread? He's a paid troll, they've been popping up all over the Web over the last day and a half.


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

kristallin said:


> Notice he's never posted here before, and only in this thread? He's a paid troll, they've been popping up all over the Web over the last day and a half.





Join Date: Nov 2007


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## Sebastian (Aug 9, 2008)

Russian politics ...


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## Makelele (Aug 9, 2008)

Apparently the Abhasians have now joined the conflict against the Georgians. I couldn't find a source in English, but the Finnish news paper Helsingin Sanomat (the biggest newspaper in Finland) reported that.


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

YouTube - The truth about South Ossetia War, Georgia attack, and Russia's responce


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## kristallin (Aug 9, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> Join Date: Nov 2007



Your first post was in this thread


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

I read sometimes this forum, when want to find some info about guitars and lessons (I play B.C.Rich 7-string), buit I've never wrote here before - is it criminal?


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## Metal Ken (Aug 9, 2008)

The quote from the info on the video is rather suspect:



> he truth is Georgia had committed the act of genocide against people of South Ossetia, and Russia had no choice but to protect its own citizens!



If Georgia, a sovereign country decides to commit genocide, as wrong as it may be, Russia would still be invading. This statement implies Russia still thinks it control Georgia? if its a Russian state, then Russia is simply pulling a police action. It can't be a Russian state, however, since Georgia declared independence in 1991. If its another sovereign country, its an invasion. Simple as that. Most of these people i see defending this are people acting like Georgia is a part of Russia still.


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## stuh84 (Aug 9, 2008)

"South Ossetians nearly unanimously approved a referendum on November 12, 2006 opting for independence from Georgia. The referendum was hugely popular, winning between 98 and 99 percent of the ballots, flag waving and celebration marked were seen across South Ossetia,"

Seems South Ossetia doesn't believe its part of Georgia anyway.


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## Metal Ken (Aug 9, 2008)

stuh84 said:


> "South Ossetians nearly unanimously approved a referendum on November 12, 2006 opting for independence from Georgia. The referendum was hugely popular, winning between 98 and 99 percent of the ballots, flag waving and celebration marked were seen across South Ossetia,"
> 
> Seems South Ossetia doesn't believe its part of Georgia anyway.



Even still, where does "Russia protecting its citizens" come into play there?


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## stuh84 (Aug 9, 2008)

Apparently, South Ossetia has been increasing its ties with Russia over the past couple of years. BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Peace bid as Ossetia crisis rages <--- that has a timeline on it.

Still, I am half in agreement with you as I'm not sure it was Russias place to get involved. However, you could technically say the same for Poland in 1939. 

I've not really got an opinion on all this, I'm just intrigued as to where its stemmed from and whats going to happen next.


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## Gotmer (Aug 9, 2008)

Yes, Georgia is not a part of Russia. But Russia has a mandate of CIS (and Georgia, in fact) that is recognized by international organizations and parts of conflicts (G. and S.O.)

After Georgia attacked civil people and russian peacekeepers, they broke their obligations.

sad, if for some millioners wishes, that has enough power, die many people (


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## hairychris (Aug 10, 2008)

The situation's somewhat fucked. As it happens, there's no independent assessment of the situation and to be honest I wouldn't trust Putin's government as far as I can spit a refridgerator.

We do know that the Russians have been supporting seperatists in Abkhasia, probably in South Ossetia too (well, I'd put money on it). So... these are the people who are in as 'peace keepers' then? On sovereign Georgian territory? No wonder the Georgian government aren't happy.

Now... if the Georgians had been screwing with the population then yeah, something needed doing. But NOT by the Russians. To say that they are politically predatory, with a government that seems to be aiming itself towards an imperial dictatorship of some description.

The unrelated, but darkly amusing, aspect to all this is that the Americans (and British, I'm not leaving our lot out of it) now have absolutely NO moral authority on the issue. They invaded Iraq, a sovereign nation like Georgia - and a nation with minorities & seperatists like Georgia - with basically no valid reason.



EDIT: Oh, and the fact that if Russia takes control of the trans Georgian pipelines then they will control *all* energy flowing to Europe. I wonder if that has anything to do with helping things along? We know that the Russians enjoy having that weapon in their arsenal (Ukraine?)....


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## Xaios (Aug 10, 2008)

Time for Canada to arm for war then? 

But seriously, this whole thing sucks. 1400 people dead in a day, correct? That's pretty insane.


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## Gotmer (Aug 10, 2008)

Xaios said:


> But seriously, this whole thing sucks. 1400 people dead in a day, correct? That's pretty insane.



2000 in a three days..


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## 7 Dying Trees (Aug 11, 2008)

Metal Ken said:


> The quote from the info on the video is rather suspect:
> 
> 
> 
> If Georgia, a sovereign country decides to commit genocide, as wrong as it may be, Russia would still be invading. This statement implies Russia still thinks it control Georgia? if its a Russian state, then Russia is simply pulling a police action. It can't be a Russian state, however, since Georgia declared independence in 1991. If its another sovereign country, its an invasion. Simple as that. Most of these people i see defending this are people acting like Georgia is a part of Russia still.





Metal Ken said:


> Even still, where does "Russia protecting its citizens" come into play there?


The area in question is populated by a large number of people who still hold russian, not georgian, citizenship.

Just like a lot of nations would step in to protect it's citizens.

Also, seeing as that part of georgia clkaimed independance but has not been granted it. So it's kind of a georgia is like serbia, where it really did not like losing that part of it that claimed independance a while back (forget the name, sorry!) and a lot of serbs do not recognise the state and it's left sour grapes in their mouth.

Still, it must piss china off that noone is interested in their olympic games at the moment...


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## 7 Dying Trees (Aug 11, 2008)

kristallin said:


> Your first post was in this thread


GIve th guy a break, often it takes something someone feels strongly about for them to post. If he were just a troll then there's no way he'd have signed up almost a year ago, it'd most likely be in the past two weeks.

Also remember that all news is biased, as is history, as it is written through the eyes of the victors or sides with conflicting goals, there is pretty much no unbiased reporting.


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## Sang-Drax (Aug 11, 2008)

The pipelines obviously (ok, probably ) play a big part on this.

James, Russia conceded citizinship as an attempt to destabilize even more the situation there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those people are as georgian as they are russian. I've read that they even speak a language that descends from old persian.

I would probably be more inclined to Russia's side if it weren't for the fact that Moscow isn't considering conceding independence for Northern Ossetia, which belongs to Russia. As in most wars (if not all), it seems it's all about money.

On the other hand, Eastern Europe seems to have lots of serious ethnic issues I can't even begin to understand. It's hard to have an opinion if I have no idea of people's feelings about all of this, specially since it's a subject people don't talk about around here (unlike Western Europe History, a pretty common subject in schools).


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## Drew (Aug 11, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> Georgian killed more than thousand peoplem, destroyed capital of region - how can it be unpunished? Most of people in South Ossetia have russian citizenship. When terrorists destroyed scyscrapes in NY, it was a good reason for USA to invade Iraq. Why Russia should bear when their peacekeepers and citizens are being running danger from other country? When I watch BBC, CNN news, I see video, that I saw on Thursday, when Georgia was destroying Tshinvali, and a commentator says there are Russian forces (they entered South Osssetia on Friday) that attack Georgia! Wtf?
> 
> About planes - 1. Russian and Georgia have many similar planes, most of them were constructed while Georgia was a part of USSR. 2. Where are damages?



Mod mode - your only posts to date have been in the Politics and Current Events forum, and have been of a fairly inflammatory, strongly pro-Russia bent. I'm not going to bother to run your IP, but I don't think I need to. All I ask is, while you're of course welcome to post here, please do so with an open, courteous mind, and wiith an understanding that very few people are probably going to agree with you. 


That said... The reports I've heard have been that Russia has spent the last several days handing out Russian passports to South Ossetian citizens to bolster their claim to "protect their citizens," requiring no documentation in return and basically granting citizenship to anyone who wants it, and that their "peacekeeping" troops have been pretty one-sided in which side of the peace they want to keep. The fact that this all happened on the day the Olympics opened, while the entire world would be looking elsewhere, adds to the shadiness a bit. 

All and all, there's a strong enough case for the appearance of impropriety that Russia probably shouldn't have acted unilaterally, just as the majority consensus around here was that the United States also should not have unilaterally invaded Iraq after 9/11.


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## Gotmer (Aug 11, 2008)

Russia did setup extra passport processing centers near borders because of the high demand when the deadline - for everyone who was interested - for swapping out USSR passports to Russian was nearing several years ago. but to get it, they had to be want to get it and come to Russia to do the paper work. nobody was forcing them or gave them the citizenships as a present. Because Georgia was NOT giving them Georgian passports, and because nobody in the world recognizes USSR passports they all took the opportunity.

and it was at the beginning of 90-s


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## Sang-Drax (Aug 11, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> Russia did setup extra passport processing centers near borders because of the high demand when the deadline - for everyone who was interested - for swapping out USSR passports to Russian was nearing several years ago. but to get it, they had to be want to get it and come to Russia to do the paper work. nobody was forcing them or gave them the citizenships as a present. Because Georgia was NOT giving them Georgian passports, and because nobody in the world recognizes USSR passports they all took the opportunity.
> 
> and it was at the beginning of 90-s



That's some interesting information. I suppose you do live in Russia or at least know someone who lives there, right? Perhaps it's a biased point of view, but, like someone else already said in this very thread, all news are biased when it comes to such a recent event. It's good to know information from someone that's on the other side.

I still agree with everything Drew stated in his last post, though. Georgia is a sovereign country. Even if what you say holds true, Gotmer, Russia shouldn't even have distributed those passports in the first place. It was a Georgian province, not Russian - thus, an affair that concerns Georgia alone. Giving away passports to people that have nothing to do with Russia still looks like a plan to destabilize Georgia in the long run. If Moscow were really worried about South Ossetia, they should have done what US, well, _didn't_ do - submit the subject to NU.


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## kristallin (Aug 11, 2008)

Reports are coming in about attacks on Tblisi, the Georgian capital. If this continues and the Russian forces continue their advances on Georgian territory it's going to be near impossible for Russia to continue to claim the high road on this. It's a territory grab, like I said.

James, I've seen a lot of blatant pro-Russian propaganda posts appear out of nowhere on several forums by people with no prior posting record to the outbreak of fighting - coincidence? I think not.


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## guitarplayerone (Aug 11, 2008)

um... is it wrong of me to remind everyone that they are simply repeating what they have heard over the news? With that said, if Georgia wasn't helping us in Iraq I doubt the US would have given a shit whatsoever.

Good thing we don't have any troops to donate, this could turn ugly otherwise...

(and we should stay the fuck out of eastern europe anyway... blowback, anyone? last time we tried to fuck over russia (then the USSR) we trained Al-Quaida operatives ourselves and planted the seeds of 9-11)


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## Drew (Aug 11, 2008)

guitarplayerone said:


> um... is it wrong of me to remind everyone that they are simply repeating what they have heard over the news? With that said, if Georgia wasn't helping us in Iraq I doubt the US would have given a shit whatsoever.



Oh, you're perfectly correct. No arguments there. 

However, it's a mess on both sides. South Ossetians may very well be being persecuted by Georgia, and it's clear they want independance. If Georgia wants to reassert dominance on the territory, then Ossetians are entirely within their right to plead to the international community for assistance. 

Meanwhile, since Ossetia has historically been a Georgian territory, Russians have no business whatsoever giving out Russian passports to Ossetians, and if there's strong demand for them as Gotmer claims, by his own argument it's entirely economically driven (the only way to get a job in Russia is with them) and as such any argument about "protecting ones' citizenship" put forward by Russia is crap - south Ossetians are only marginally more Russian than illegal Mexican immigrants are here. 

Really, this is a straight-up territory dispute between Russia and Georgia, who of late is Russian Enemy #1, and near as I can tell what the South Ossetians actually _want_ is pretty secondary. If they succeed in breaking away from Georgia, they're just going to be assimilated by Russian peacekeepers.



guitarplayerone said:


> (and we should stay the fuck out of eastern europe anyway... blowback, anyone? last time we tried to fuck over russia (then the USSR) we trained Al-Quaida operatives ourselves and planted the seeds of 9-11)



Actually, last time we "tried to fuck over Russia," we DID "fuck over Russia." When's the last time you heard anything about the USSR? I'll give you a hint, it used to be where all of those "former Soviet Bloc" countries are today. russia has only begun to re-assert itself on the global stage in the last couple years.


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## kristallin (Aug 11, 2008)

Drew said:


> Oh, you're perfectly correct. No arguments there.
> 
> However, it's a mess on both sides. South Ossetians may very well be being persecuted by Georgia, and it's clear they want independance. If Georgia wants to reassert dominance on the territory, then Ossetians are entirely within their right to plead to the international community for assistance.
> 
> ...



My theory is that the complete annexation of Georgia is the actual motivation behind Russia's moves here. If Georgia ceases to exist then there won't be a potential NATO member standing between Russia and the Black Sea. No NATO member = no missile defense system right on their doorstep, and no more paying for the right to use Georgian oil and gas pipelines to the coast.


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## xXcondemnedXx (Aug 11, 2008)

god damn i hate wars.


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## arktan (Aug 12, 2008)

xXcondemnedXx said:


> god damn i hate wars.



I hear you mate. But noone asks us or the poor fuckers who die in the battlefield


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## hairychris (Aug 12, 2008)

kristallin said:


> My theory is that the complete annexation of Georgia is the actual motivation behind Russia's moves here. If Georgia ceases to exist then there won't be a potential NATO member standing between Russia and the Black Sea. No NATO member = no missile defense system right on their doorstep, and no more paying for the right to use Georgian oil and gas pipelines to the coast.


 
I wouldn't be surprised, to be perfectly honest.... this is whether or not Georgia misbehaved against it's own citizens.

I didn't know that Russia had been distributing passports in the disputed territory.

Kind of reminds me of this:

Germans in Czechoslovakia (1918â&#8364;&#8220;1938) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(I'm not particularly pro-Georgian, mind you, I just trust the Russian government about as much as I trust the US one eg not much at all)


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## HaGGuS (Aug 12, 2008)

A local Australian news site has just reported the Russian president has told the army to cease taking ground.
Medvedev orders end to Georgia operation - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Lets hope its the end of the fighting.


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## Gotmer (Aug 12, 2008)

kristallin said:


> Reports are coming in about attacks on Tblisi, the Georgian capital. If this continues and the Russian forces continue their advances on Georgian territory it's going to be near impossible for Russia to continue to claim the high road on this. It's a territory grab, like I said.


Military airport was bombed (no victims), from which planes were taking off and then attacking S.Ossetia. Russian president announsed today that operaration "enforcement to peace" is over now and Russian forces are not going to continue military operations. Sure, Georgia must not continue them too.


kristallin said:


> James, I've seen a lot of blatant pro-Russian propaganda posts appear out of nowhere on several forums by people with no prior posting record to the outbreak of fighting - coincidence? I think not.



Look, what should we feel, when Georgian president claims that Georgian army wouldn't attack S.Ossetia, and in a hour I see how it destroys Tshinvali, and killed 1500 civilians? What should we feel when refugees from S.O say, that Georgian soldiers knifed children, burned down the church with womens inside, that tanks ran out people in villages. There was any article about this conflict in a foreign mass media until Russia sent troops there to stop this butchery. I don't know all aims of its stay there, but I'm sure, that Georgia wasn't going to stop this genocide. 
Western governments and newsmakers acting as Ministry of Truth in George Orwell&#8217;s &#8220;1984&#8221;. They claimed that committing genocide of helpless civilian people should be considered as «re-establishing order in the breakaway region». They claimed that peacekeeping operation, focused on preventing further warcrimes, should be considered as a «full-scale invasion». They are remaining silent about murders in Tchinvali, performed by the regular army of Georgia. They are remaining silent about 360 Russian tourists, who being imprisoned and tortured in Georgia at the present moment. It feels like they make you think that it is legal.
Me and my compatriot think, that it's injustice and try to change situation by communicating with foreign citizens in internet. Sure, it looks like a propaganda (


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## Obscura (Aug 12, 2008)

Georgia's South Ossetia is Russia's Chechnya.

Hypocrisy runs rampant.

The fact that Kosovo has declared independence (with considerable international support) gives these breakaway nations validation in their cause. But considering Russia objects to Kosovo but helps protect South Ossetia, a dubious picture arises.

Russia has stomped all over the non-Slavic ethnic groups in the past, those being Caucasians, Iranic and Turkic people. 

Ossetians are Iranic, so why are they protecting them now?

I believe Russia has changed, but I don't believe they are now fighting for the rights of ethnic minorities. If this were the case, they wouldn't be fighting with Chechnya.

Surely an ulterior motive is present.

I am unhappy with certain breakaway nations; we can't keep dividing nations simply because a certain area has a large minority of a different ethnicity. We would have hundreds more countries if this was the case... people would be fighting over lands 50km across. It's silly.

Ethnic divisions are vital to culture but are detrimental to peace. Tolerance is needed in these areas.

I am uncertain of the future, and I am uncertain of who I side with.


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## Chris (Aug 12, 2008)

This thread is really starting to feel like spam to me.


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## Drew (Aug 12, 2008)

kristallin said:


> My theory is that the complete annexation of Georgia is the actual motivation behind Russia's moves here. If Georgia ceases to exist then there won't be a potential NATO member standing between Russia and the Black Sea. No NATO member = no missile defense system right on their doorstep, and no more paying for the right to use Georgian oil and gas pipelines to the coast.



I think this is certainly an undercurrent here, as is a pro-Western Georgia's usefulness to the EU as a corridor for Caspian Sea oil, loosening Europe's dependance on Russian energy. Taking down Georgia before they can join Nato is not only a defensive act to forestall missile defense in their backyard, it's also offensive, in that it will continue to allow Russia to use its vast energy reserves as leverage on the global stage.


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## Gotmer (Aug 12, 2008)

Russia Georgia War - Washington risks nuclear war by miscalculation // Current

The dramatic military attack by the military of the Republic of Georgia on South Ossetia in the last days has brought the world one major step closer to the ultimate horror of the Cold War era&#8212;a thermonuclear war between Russia and the United States&#8212;by miscalculation. What is playing out in the Caucasus is being reported in US media in an alarmingly misleading light, making Moscow appear the lone aggressor. The question is whether George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are encouraging the unstable Georgian President, Mikhail Saakashvili in order to force the next US President to back the NATO military agenda of the Bush Doctrine. This time Washington may have badly misjudged the possibilities, as it did in Iraq , but this time with possible nuclear consequences. 

The underlying issue, as I stressed in my July 11 piece in this space, Georgien, Washington, Moskau: Atomarer geopolitischer Machtpoker , is the fact that since the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991 one after another former member as well as former states of the USSR have been coaxed and in many cases bribed with false promises by Washington into joining the counter organization, NATO. 

Rather than initiate discussions after the 1991 dissolution of the Warsaw Pact about a systematic dissolution of NATO, Washington has systematically converted NATO into what can only be called the military vehicle of an American global imperial rule, linked by a network of military bases from Kosovo to Poland to Turkey to Iraq and Afghanistan . In 1999, former Warsaw Pact members Hungary , Poland and the Czech Republic joined NATO. Bulgaria , Estonia , Latvia , Lithuania , Romania , and Slovakia followed suit in March 2004. Now Washington is putting immense pressure on the EU members of NATO, especially Germany and France , that they vote in December to admit Georgia and Ukraine . 

The roots of the conflict 

The specific conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia and Abkhazia has its roots in the following. First, the Southern Ossetes , who until 1990 formed an autonomous region of the Georgian Soviet republic, seek to unite in one state with their co-ethnics in North Ossetia, an autonomous republic of the Russian Soviet republic and now the Russian Federation . There is an historically grounded Ossete fear of violent Georgian nationalism and the experience of Georgian hatred of ethnic minorities under then Georgian leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia, which the Ossetes see again under Georgian President, Mikhel Saakashvili. Saakashvili was brought to power with US financing and US covert regime change activities in December 2003 in what was called the Rose Revolution. Now the thorns of that rose are causing blood to spill. 

Abkhazia and South Ossetia&#8212;the first a traditional Black Sea resort area, the second an impoverished, sparsely populated region that borders Russia to the north&#8212;each has its own language, culture, history. When the Soviet Union collapsed, both regions sought to separate themselves from Georgia in bloody conflicts - South Ossetia in 1990-1, Abkhazia in 1992-4.


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## wannabguitarist (Aug 12, 2008)

Drew said:


> I think this is certainly an undercurrent here, as is a pro-Western Georgia's usefulness to the EU as a corridor for Caspian Sea oil, loosening Europe's dependance on Russian energy. Taking down Georgia before they can join Nato is not only a defensive act to forestall missile defense in their backyard, it's also offensive, in that it will continue to allow Russia to use its vast energy reserves as leverage on the global stage.





Obscura said:


> Georgia's South Ossetia is Russia's Chechnya.
> 
> Hypocrisy runs rampant.
> 
> ...



 on both points


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## Gotmer (Aug 12, 2008)

France: Cease-fire, not peace, reached in Georgia - CNN.com


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## JJ Rodriguez (Aug 12, 2008)

Linking the articles would probably be better than copy and pasting


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## Drew (Aug 12, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> The question is whether George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are encouraging the unstable Georgian President, Mikhail Saakashvili in order to force the next US President to back the NATO military agenda of the Bush Doctrine. This time Washington may have badly misjudged the possibilities, as it did in Iraq , but this time with possible nuclear consequences.



 

Dude, that's what's known as a "rhetorical question," and in the context of the article is pretty misleading. The author is asking, "So, are Bush and Cheney encouraging the Georgian president to provoke the Russians, or are they not," and then he goes on to assume they are and that's that. Show me an ounce of proof to support that and maybe we can talk. 

Furthermore, I'm not sure how they could be supporting the Georgian president to force NATO to support the "Bush doctrine," since the "Bush Doctrine" is simply that we will hunt terrorists and the aiders and abettors of terrorists wherever we find them and on a pre-emptive basis, since Russia last I heard is not part of our so-called "Axis of Evil" of terrorist countries, and since Georgia isn't being made the victim of terrorist activities. At the VERY least they're the victim of a conventional warfare attack at the hands of the Russians, and your argument is that they're the agressors and not the victims here. 

It's really a pretty piss-poor example of persuasive writing - the author just makes a few sensationalist claims and pretends to consider them before taking them as assumptions, to give them a gleam of reasonability.


I'm not sure how to put this tactfully, but if your intent in joining this board is to post pro-Russian propaghanda, and not talk about seven string guitars (you know, as this is sevenstring.org), then maybe this isn't the place for you.


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## Thomas (Aug 12, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> They are remaining silent about 360 Russian tourists, who being imprisoned and tortured in Georgia at the present moment.


From the vast pile of your silly, unsubstantiated claims, this one takes the cake. As far as I'm concerned, you have ZERO credibility. Also, you must be very arrogant to think anyone would believe your incoherent gibberish over real news sources.



Gotmer said:


> Me and my compatriot think, that it's injustice and try to change situation by communicating with foreign citizens in internet. Sure, it looks like a propaganda (


No.

Propaganda is EXACTLY what it is. Everything that you have said suggests that you did not come here to participate in an intelligent discussion. You just admitted to spreading propaganda. If you disagree, go look up the definition of it.


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## Gotmer (Aug 13, 2008)

Thomas said:


> .. over real news sources.



why you can't presume that these "real news sources" are propoganda? "Who controls the media, controls the mind"


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## JJ Rodriguez (Aug 13, 2008)

Yeah, screw the news, I'm believing the d00d on teh intarwebz.


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## Gotmer (Aug 13, 2008)

YouTube - Re: Georgia and Russia go toe-to-toe over S Ossetia - 09 Aug


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## Pauly (Aug 13, 2008)

The amount of propaganda and misinformation in the Russian news is unreal, they accuse Saakashvili of genocide and compare him to Hitler and Saddam.

They keep showing one town in Ossetia which is bombed and calling it a humanitarian tragedy but dont even mention the 15 cities their 'peacekeepers' bombed in Georgia, blowing up churches, schools and homes. 3000 Georgians are reported dead and over 70,000 who have fled.

They have killed international reporters and only allow Russian reporters into the conflict zones. They do not show any of the anti-Russian speeches by the leaders of the West or anti-western demonstrations. Its a complete propaganda war.The most outrageous piece of propaganda is that they reported that a public poll on CNN showed that 92% of Americans thought that the actions of the Russians were justified, I looked on the CNN website and there is no such poll, lol.

I have a friend in Russia at the moment btw, my source!


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## Gotmer (Aug 13, 2008)

Pauly said:


> The most outrageous piece of propaganda is that they reported that a public poll on CNN showed that 92% of Americans thought that the actions of the Russians were justified, I looked on the CNN website and there is no such poll, lol.



Digg - 92% of CNN readers: Russia's actions in Georgia - justified!



Pauly said:


> The amount of propaganda and misinformation in the Russian news is unreal, they accuse Saakashvili of genocide and compare him to Hitler and Saddam.
> 
> They keep showing one town in Ossetia which is bombed and calling it a humanitarian tragedy but dont even mention the 15 cities their 'peacekeepers' bombed in Georgia, blowing up churches, schools and homes. 3000 Georgians are reported dead and over 70,000 who have fled.
> 
> ...



may be you will back those statements? 

*edit* link removed


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## halsinden (Aug 13, 2008)

just out of interest:

Mikhail Gorbachev: Leaders in the Caucasus must develop grounds for lasting peace | Comment is free | The Guardian

H


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## Drew (Aug 13, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> may be you will back those statements?
> 
> *edit* link removed



Ok, this is a public forum, and a lot of our membership surfs from work. I'm going to ask you in VERY firm terms not put post pictures of dead bodies on this site ever again.


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## Drew (Aug 13, 2008)

> The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of US instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of Nato membership, emboldened Georgian leaders.



This makes no sense to me. The Georgians have been a relatively close US ally for some time now, true - a quick net search tells me their president has been to the White House three times in the last four years, that the number of advisors was probably closer to 2,000, and that we're a supporter of their bid to become NATO members. 

However, it also makes it clear that while supporting Georgia, the US has also made it clear that they support a peaceful resolution with the Ossetian seperatists, involving the creation of an independant state. 

So, any talk about the US "embolding" the Georgians to attack Ossetia is completely ignoring half of the US's foriegn policy in the region - why would we encourage Georgia to attack Ossetia, while at the same time saying that Ossetia should be a free republic? 

If anything, what we're seeing here represents a refutation by the Georgians of American foriegn policy, and on some level a vindication now that the Red Army is gearing back up. 

A lot of the anti-US sentiment being linked by Gotmer here seems to be based on the premise that the Americans encouraged the Georgians to attak South Ossetia. That makes NO sense, since we've made it very clear that we support their independance. 

Anyway, Russia broke the ceace fire last night, rolling more tanks into Georgia.


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## Gotmer (Aug 13, 2008)

Drew said:


> while at the same time saying that Ossetia should be a free republic?



mmm..link?


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## Drew (Aug 13, 2008)

Ok, this article sort of proves the point I was making above, that there's no way in HELL this attack could have been done at the US's urging: 

Rice told Georgia to avoid conflict with Russia: report - Yahoo! News



> "She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table," an unnamed senior US official who accompanied Rice on the trip told the newspaper...
> 
> ...We told them they had to keep their unilateral cease-fire," the unnamed official told the newspaper. "We said, be smart about this, don't go in and don't fall for the Russian provocation. Do not do this'."
> 
> ...






Gotmer said:


> mmm..link?



U.S. limited in Georgia crisis - Yahoo! News



> The US has long publicly stated that it is in favor of a peaceful settlement of Georgia's disputes with its breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Yet Saakashvili decided to send troops into South Ossetia, anyway. That appears to have been the spark that set off the crisis &#8211; or the provocation that Russia was waiting for.



This, meanwhile, is STUPID, and it'd be hard to believe Russia isn't behind this.

Abkhazian separatist fighters grab land in Georgia - Yahoo! News


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## Gotmer (Aug 13, 2008)

Drew said:


> Abkhazian separatist fighters grab land in Georgia - [/url]



This is not land grab. Abhazian return theit territory in Kodorsky gorge that Georgia grabbed in 2006 (Georgia violated agreement in Dagomis, that was completed in 1993). And they give them a time to escape and humanitarian coridor


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## Drew (Aug 13, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> This is not land grab. Abhazian return theit territory in Kodorsky gorge that Georgia grabbed in 2006 (Georgia violated agreement in Dagomis, that was completed in 1993). And they give them a time to escape and humanitarian coridor



No, you completely misunderstood me. I care fuck-all about what you want to call it, the TIMING is stupid. Georgia and Russia are on the brink of war, and are actually openly fighting in Ossetia. I'm not saying the Abkhazian seperatists don't have a certain claim to the territory, but the land in question is widely recognized as being part of Georgia, even if for all practical purposes its an indpendant area these days. 

So, with Georgia- Russia relations being literally on the brink of all out war, Abkhazian seperatists going out (with Russian support) and saying "Oh yeah, this isn't yours either" is just going to fan the flames. It's fucking idiotic, and is either the work of a few lone rebels who are scaring the Russians as much as the Georgians, or is the sort of ballsy power-play that will almost certainly force Georgia to have to retaliate, giving the Russians cause to say the Georgians have violated their cease-fire and launch an open military assault on the Georgians. 

In the scale of gigantic stupid "in principle, yes, but what were they _thinking??!!_" moves, this is sort of like a bunch of Palestinians rolling into downtown Jerusalem or the Golan Heights with a Palestinian flag and a couple rifles, and saying, "we're asserting our right to this territory, since prior to 1967 we owned it." Sure, their claim is not without justice, but enforcing it at this point in time is going to almost surely lead to war. 

Georgia fucked up when they proactively struck against the rebels in South Ossetia, plain and simple. Rice, much as I may dislike her, was right; the best course of action was to enforce an unilateral cease fire, ignore Russian aggression, and not get pulled into a conflict. However, they did, and now Russia's tightening the thumb screws on them in a BIG way to try to draw them into a wider conflict, and if they don't stop, the once-dead Cold War is about to heat up in a big way, and that's bad news for all parties involved.

It's not a "land grab," it's an open attempt to incite war.



Gotmer said:


> mmm..link?



Anyway, will you at least concede, given the link you requested, that a Georgian assault for whatever reasons was starkly against American policy, so that you can't write this off as an attempt by the Americans to start a war here?


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## Chris (Aug 13, 2008)

Gotmer said:


> YouTube - Re: Georgia and Russia go toe-to-toe over S Ossetia - 09 Aug



I recommend you start contributing to the rest of the site in some sort of music-related way, or you'll find your stay here short lived.


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## Durero (Aug 15, 2008)

I haven't carefully read every previous post in this thread, and these are not intended to support or argue with any previous posts, but I found these reports on the situation informative and at least they're from an independent news source which receives no corporate or government funding.


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