# Putting riffs together...



## K4RM4 (Dec 2, 2011)

Here is the ordeal...I can write a lot of riffs (who can't?). And i can write a few melodies, what i can't do is figure out how to structure a song or piece riffs together and melodies over riffs to form a song. I've had a few guitar lessons, but i'm mainly self taught (8ish years) and play lots of covers of various songs by killswitch, parkway drive, as i lay dying, trivium, in flames, and so on. I have an extremely BASIC knowlege of theory, mainly what key to write leads over which cords (i have to use my cheat sheet sometimes, but hey, i'm trying here). I guess i'm just looking for some techniques you guys use to piece your riffs together to form a coherent song.

--K4RMA


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## TinyAlaska (Dec 2, 2011)

Tempo, rhythm, and key are staples of coherent "pop structure". Play to a metronome and experiment in stringing together riffs from your library of riffs (so to speak) in different orders to see if they work within the same tempos. Leads, in the very simplest form, outline and play within the chords it is accompanied by - for example, if you are playing a Cmaj triad, an ascending Cmaj scale will achieve a "lead feel" when played up to speed and is a very obvious choice. 

If you are unsure how to name a chord Chorderator Chord Generator has an awesome visual "chord building" tool. 

Above all, simply use your ears!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 2, 2011)

I have to do some homework tonight, so this is going to be a fairly short response. Form basically relies on contrasts, which can be anything from rhythm, key, meter, range, dynamic, tempo, orchestration, density, and beyond. Try grouping your riffs according to their feel. If they contrast, use them to make distinct sections. If you have enough similar riffs in the same grouping, try putting them together within a section. I have a few posts on form here that you might want to look at:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/173615-songwriting-help.html

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/169951-playing-solo.html

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/175473-keyboards-metal-tips.html

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...s/174423-diminished-keys-modulating-them.html (The Bartók thing in the middle of the post here is, in my opinion, a good piece to study for form.)


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## Solodini (Dec 2, 2011)

I know there was a thread not so long about stringing riffs together. On my mobile just now so I'm not going to search for you but it's out there. Search posts for the term "enclosure" as my key point in that thread mentioned this. The post itself well explain what I mean. 

Read those threads SW linked to then see if there's anything from them which you need clarification on.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2011)

You're missing something fairly major.

Riffs, arppeggiated scales, song structure and so on... all of it is just wanking if you have no clue as to writing an interesting chord progression. If you don't know what chords are behind your riffs, then you don't understand the the framework upon which you're building your song.

_The Songwriting Sourcebook_ by Rikky Rooksby is a great book to learn from, regardless of what style of music you're writing in.


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## Solodini (Dec 2, 2011)

I wouldn't say a chord progression or focus therein in is so important in some music. Some pretty bitchin stuff can be based on one chord alone. In other cases, you might have that much movement in harmonic interaction that documenting chord movement may be unnecessary, especially if accompanying parts are pretty melodically minded. 

A sense of harmony and some direction is certainly important but I don't think that needs to take the form of a chord sequence, at least not necessarily in the traditional sense, given the general form of a lot of modern music. 

Some might say that this sort of form negatively affects the music, in certain cases I'd agree, but I think it can allow for a lot more freedom and expression. It can be all too easy to choose a key and chord progression and stick to it religiously at the expense of what is going on within the space each chord is covering. I think it is often better to develop ability at a more micro level: focusing on what is happening from note to note to make sure each piece fits together as it moves, even if that might lead to constant key changes and weird time signature.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 2, 2011)

On the other hand, most of my own composition mistakes are the result of a lack of harmonic motion. A few chord changes never hurt, but use it to move the music along rather than rely on it as a featured structure.


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## Solodini (Dec 2, 2011)

Exactly. A set chord sequence can lead you in to the trap of not using much harmonic motion outside of the chord changes.


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2011)

I thought the OP was talking about wanting to put riffs and melodies together to make completed songs. 

I can agree that someone might experiment outside of the norm once they've figured out how to make it work in a conventional way, but it sounds like you all are advocating abandoning conventional sentence structure, and embracing beat poetry, when someone is asking how to write effectively. 

Suggesting a tiny/narrow approach doesn't seem like the best way to help someone who might be looking for generally applicable advice for a broad question, but maybe that's what he/she wanted....


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## Solodini (Dec 2, 2011)

Fair play, I just think it can be very easy to suck the character out of a song by forcing it into some form of chord progression. Harmonic awareness is certainly very important in terms of stacking parts and making sure that connecting riffs do not clash unintentionally. I don't think a set chord progression is necessarily the way this needs to be approached as fitting chord sequences to ostinato based ideas can be a bit like forcing a square peg into a round hole. 

However, to expand an idea into a larger piece, a chord sequence for a following section could be based on the notes of the preceding riff for a sense of continuity and development.

It seems like we may have riled you a bit, Explorer. That wasn't my intention at all, I was merely trying to offer my perspective on your suggestion. My apologies if I've offended you, sir.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 2, 2011)

Solodini said:


> Fair play, I just think it can be very easy to suck the character out of a song by forcing it into some form of chord progression. Harmonic awareness is certainly very important in terms of stacking parts and making sure that connecting riffs do not clash unintentionally. I don't think a set chord progression is necessarily the way this needs to be approached as fitting chord sequences to ostinato based ideas can be a bit like forcing a square peg into a round hole.
> 
> However, to expand an idea into a larger piece, a chord sequence for a following section could be based on the notes of the preceding riff for a sense of continuity and development.




Ostinato -> chords isn't too much of square peg round hole, albeit it might be a bit of a stretch for the average listener. 

To the topic at hand, I would say that what is to avoid is the 'progressive' ideas around here, such as those tiny alaska is perpetuating. Those happen around here a lot, and it is mostly writing off bad song writing, and a lack of coherency as 'it's progressive, so you know, you just don't get it.' A pretty poor excuse to not make something cohesive, but it happens a whole tonne around here, explicitly or implied. Pair that with a lot of misplaced values on what is percieved as innovation, and you get a whole slew of nonsense flying around. 

TLDR, you can just haphazardly throw riffs together and call it a song, but it happens a lot around here. Pop or not, it sounds bad.


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## Dayn (Dec 2, 2011)

_I_ can't write a lot of riffs.  You meanie.

Regardless, I'd say you should look at the type of music you want to write, and note how they structure their songs. How can you break it down? Verses, choruses? Recurring themes and motifs? Is there any underlying harmonic movement which pushes the piece along?

Also, write your riffs, not just as riffs, but as entire song sections. You can imply things with that riff alone, but unless you're just having one guitar in your track, you're going to have other instruments, too. Write for them as well. Then you have many instruments with which you can use to transition from riff to riff. For example, you could have two entirely different (but similar obviously) riffs back-to-back, linked only by, say, a drum fill and a rising keyboard crescendo. You can always use other instruments to create an interesting link, so the one guitar doesn't have to do all the work.

Other than that... just spend hours and hours on learning how to write full songs. Stop writing just riffs, but take all the above and try to write full songs, with a beginning, middle and end. I don't care if they're absolutely shithouse, songwriting takes practice, and you'll have to churn out hundreds of pieces of crap so you can learn how it all works. I have a folder full of terrible pieces, but after practicing so much, I can at least write out an interesting, solid pop rock song.

I'm sure there's an easier way of learning song structure and form and stuff, but I'm self-taught, so all I can recommend is to copy others.


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## K4RM4 (Dec 3, 2011)

Wow guys, thank you for all the responses so far. Im kinda glad to see this is striking up some good conversation as well. I guess what i was really looking for were member's own techniques and what they do to piece their own riffs together, as of right now, i do take the approach of note finding and trying to come up with something else from there. So really, if i were to come up with a song, the entire thing would stem from a single riff. I've written one song i feel is "coherent" but its based on three chords and the overall sound is less than entertaining. The solo is improvised and there is one sour high pitched note in there...oops. The song can be found here: 

@solodini - Is your book written with tabs? i've been thinking about purchasing it lately, i've got a ton of guitar instruction books, but i think i'd be more apt to reading yours because if i have a question on something, i can just pm the author direct,


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## Solodini (Dec 3, 2011)

The book doesn't have tab or notation. There's nothing to copy, but methods to try out. You can write out what you come up with in whichever way you like. The goal is for you to be self directed, rather than just copying my patterns. Sounds like it could help you a lot, I think. 

Definitely pm me if you want to ask anything.


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## Explorer (Dec 3, 2011)

All I heard up until 2:39 of that track was backing tracks. 

I was able to scat on top of the backing tracks, so you can probably come up with some melodic work to go with the backup instruments. There's lots of songs which have three chords, and some with only two or one (and, strangely, that book I recommended earlier teaches about that stuff). 

There's a simple test I use to know if something will be effective: I sing the melody. If I can't even begin to identify one, then I've missed an opportunity. (Singing also lets you test your phrasing, incidentally. Your melodic work doesn't have any space to breathe.)

My sincere suggestion is that you write a piece with just acoustic guitar as the backup, and just electric guitar or voice as the melodic line. Ignore the temptation to get all your bits of big production done before you actually have a song to apply them to. It's too easy to hide behind production and to fail to recognize that there isn't really anything going on. 

Good luck!


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## Solodini (Dec 3, 2011)

Entirely agreed.


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## Aerospace274 (Dec 3, 2011)

I've never been able to piece together different riffs and melodies, ect. Music is an emotional thing to me. It's all about expression and feeling so for me to take things I've written from last week and try to attach it to something from 6 months ago just doesn't work. I sit down with my guitar, pick a key sig and just play. Compose a decent intro/verse riff first. Something that you can work with, you know? Then from there, just play what comes naturally with a song structure in your mind. "This verse sounds like it wants to move into chords, maybe the chorus should be next." That sort of thinking. Sometimes I pick a song structure out when I pick the key sig too. Then if whatever happens to become A or B doesn't flow well into a different section, I have to make a bridge to help it move more smoothly. It all just sort of flows when I write. Not a whole lot of taking things I wrote before and shoehorning them into every song I can. Just whatever comes naturally after each section!


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## Explorer (Dec 4, 2011)

I won't deny that music can evoke emotion, just as good writing can. I *do* think it's worth noting that one can learn to express things even if those emotions aren't immediate. That's how authors manage to write stories which don't reflect their immediate feelings. 

Plenty of songs are written in the Nashville way, with a group sitting around a table tossing out ideas... just like funny skits on SNL and in movies like "The Hangover" come together. Lennon and McCarthy sat across from each other at a table for years when they were writing. It's not just a matter of mood, in the same way that athletes study and practice to be able to perform consistently unrelated to their mood of the moment.

Athletes, writers... and musicians. 

Sorry for going slightly off topic, but I just wanted to point out that understanding mood in order to create and achieve is different from being chained to mood to do the same. One can learn to get past crutches like emotion in order to do something consistently. 

(Boring, no? I keep suggesting ways to expand beyond dabbling. Sorry, folks!)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't see why there's such a gap perceived between emotion and structure. Actually, emotions only become deeper _with_ structure. I like to show this to my students to give them a sense of the dramatic content of Sonata Form:

Johannes Brahms - Symphony 4 in E minor, Movement 1


Leonard Bernstein's simple analysis of that movement:






Knowing the structure of the movement and how its various elements interact and what that means really makes it more worthwhile, in my opinion. Although, Bernstein's analysis sounds a little dated to me when he gets around to the recapitulation. What I do like is that he takes a close look at some really modular ideas and follows their development. If you learn how to do that yourself, I promise that your awareness and appreciation for music will increase a hundredfold. Just try to identify the three different themes in this movement and listen to what happens to them as the piece progresses:

Béla Bartók - Concerto for Orchestra, Movement 1


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## Explorer (Dec 4, 2011)

I just realized why I have never referred to SW by his handle: I have a hard time calling someone a whore. Call me old fashioned. *laugh*

I don't think anyone is saying there is a gap between emotion and structure. I think it's being advanced that at the level some people are writing, they are unable to do more than make trial-and-error stabs/guesses as to how to make music do certain things.

If you've never learned how to use dom7 chords to toughen up a progression, or how to use suspensions to get something to sound unrooted or mystical, then maybe you'll flounder around to where you hit something close to what youu want. I think this arises because, in spite of the mastery of various scales and modes in a lot of metal (I'm going specifically to metal because it appears to be the music of interest in this topic), there is a folk music naivete regarding composition itself. For the most part, writing metal is the blind leading the blind.

I'm not saying that one has to study even the rudiments of music to play metal. However, it's clear that without some study on the neglected aspects, one's original compositions are only as good as one's happy accidents and what one can crib from others.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 4, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I just realized why I have never referred to SW by his handle: I have a hard time calling someone a whore. Call me old fashioned. *laugh*



Damnit, be rough with me! 



> I'm not saying that one has to study even the rudiments of music to play metal. However, it's clear that without some study on the neglected aspects, one's original compositions are only as good as one's happy accidents and what one can crib from others.



A good summation. It's like hitting a piñata: swinging at things, blindfolded, is fun, but I wouldn't want to make a career or lifestyle out of it.


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## Grimbold (Dec 21, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> I have to do some homework tonight, so this is going to be a fairly short response. Form basically relies on contrasts, which can be anything from rhythm, key, meter, range, dynamic, tempo, orchestration, density, and beyond. Try grouping your riffs according to their feel. If they contrast, use them to make distinct sections. If you have enough similar riffs in the same grouping, try putting them together within a section. I have a few posts on form here that you might want to look at:
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/173615-songwriting-help.html
> 
> ...


these were really helpful

thank you!


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