# Controversial Atheist Billboard



## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

Since this turned in to such a huge controversy in the media these past few weeks, I was just wondering what everyone's opinion on this whole thing is.







Now PERSONALLY, I am an Atheist and see no reason to get upset about this. I mean sure, you may not believe it is a myth, but Christmas was invented by the Pagans and really wasn't a Christian holiday to begin with. Despite all of the stories and religious importance, it's really just become the season for shopping (yay Capitalism!).

Besides, there are much more blatantly disrespectful billboards out there from the Christian viewpoints. 

Fox News Interview of David Silverman:


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## splinter8451 (Dec 10, 2010)

Treeunit212 said:


> Besides, there are much more blatantly disrespectful billboards out there from the Christian viewpoints.



Exactly. 

There are many *many *_*many *_Christian billboards promoting bullshit so why get all worked up over one Atheist one.


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## Plankis (Dec 10, 2010)

haha can that be called a interview? She interrupted him every second word! What's the point of having him there if he isn't allowed to talk?


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

Plankis said:


> haha can that be called a interview? She interrupted him every second word! What's the point of having him there if he isn't allowed to talk?



It wouldn't be Fox News if it was any different.


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## Mordacain (Dec 10, 2010)

Treeunit212 said:


> It wouldn't be Fox News if it was any different.



 Sad but true


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## xmetalhead69 (Dec 10, 2010)

I think its foolish to commit fully commit to either believing or not believing in something like religion. You can't know until you die, so don't worry about it until then.


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## Customisbetter (Dec 10, 2010)

I think its foolish to put up a billboard like this, however i don't mind it. Its just a billboard people.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

Atheism pisses me off, because these people seem to think they can get away with anything by justifying it with 'fact' and 'oh but Christians have done the same'. How about not lowering yourself to their level? Many atheists core argument is the violence and militant forcing of beliefs religions often have, and yet atheists have become a religion themselves and just as forcing of their opinions on people. So their reasoning for this hate campaign can't be based on protest against that. This only leaves their wish to force more people to believe in atheism (preaching?), which they are doing with controvserial and offensive ads. They're fighting fire with fire. Thats why I lost my patience with athiesm (well, militant atheists) a long time ago. When you become what you started fighting against its time to call it quits.

I think we should ust be tolerant, because taking the moral highground is the best way to live.


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## Necris (Dec 10, 2010)

Whether I agree with the billboard or not I don't see why people getting offended by a billboard is newsworthy, or even a a big deal.


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Atheism pisses me off, because these people seem to think they can get away with anything by justifying it with 'fact' and 'oh but Christians have done the same'. How about not lowering yourself to their level? Many atheists core argument is the violence and militant forcing of beliefs religions often have, and yet atheists have become a religion themselves and just as forcing of their opinions on people. So their reasoning for this hate campaign can't be based on protest against that. This only leaves their wish to force more people to believe in atheism (preaching?), which they are doing with controvserial and offensive ads. They're fighting fire with fire. Thats why I lost my patience with athiesm (well, militant atheists) a long time ago. When you become what you started fighting against its time to call it quits.
> 
> I think we should ust be tolerant, because taking the moral highground is the best way to live.



I agree completely with the stooping to their level thing.

But yeah, in the video he explains that it's not a war on anything, simply a calling to people who are afraid to be honest to their families about their lack of belief this time of year, for fear of being shunned and disowned by loved ones.

The main reason it is being seen as an attack on Christianity is because of news coverage like this.


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> these people seem to think they can get away with anything by justifying it with 'fact'



Um.. Isn't that how court cases and murder trials are won?

Food for thought.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 10, 2010)

This is equally as annoying as other religious billboards.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Atheism pisses me off, because these people seem to think they can get away with anything by justifying it with 'fact' and 'oh but Christians have done the same'. How about not lowering yourself to their level? Many atheists core argument is the violence and militant forcing of beliefs religions often have, and yet atheists have become a religion themselves and just as forcing of their opinions on people. So their reasoning for this hate campaign can't be based on protest against that. This only leaves their wish to force more people to believe in atheism (preaching?), which they are doing with controvserial and offensive ads. They're fighting fire with fire. Thats why I lost my patience with athiesm (well, militant atheists) a long time ago. When you become what you started fighting against its time to call it quits.
> 
> I think we should just be tolerant, because taking the moral highground is the best way to live.



I agree with everything said in this post, which is why I don't worship the ground that Richard Dawkins walks on like some other atheists do. I am an atheist myself, but I don't use that as an excuse to be insensitive towards the religions of the world. Those religions exist for a reason and to instantly trash all of them on the grounds of 'superior logic' - which is a phrase I *really* don't agree with - is both insensitive and narrow-minded.

Logic is great for solving certain problems in life, not *all* of them. Sometimes a little faith goes a long way.


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## Randy (Dec 10, 2010)

THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS!


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

Randy said:


> THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS!



...That didn't exist until Fox News created it!


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

Treeunit212 said:


> Um.. Isn't that how court cases and murder trials are won?
> 
> Food for thought.


 
Oh I agree fact has its place, but on things like this, which can't be confirmed either way, what does fact achieve? And this isn't a trial, no one here has commit a crime. There is a freedom to believe what you want in this world, and you shouldn't be presuctued because of that. Being gay is not biologically correct, we're not supposed to be gay. But would you tell a gay person their life is wrong because we're not naturally supposed to be that way? No, because its not right. 

Sometimes you just need to leave people to their own ends, even if it goes against what you percieve as fact. If they aren't hurting anyone, let them believe what they want. 



Scar Symmetry said:


> I agree with everything said in this post, which is why I don't worship the ground that Richard Dawkins walks on like some other atheists do. I am an atheist myself, but I don't use that as an excuse to be insensitive towards the religions of the world. Those religions exist for a reason and to instantly trash all of them on the grounds of 'superior logic' - which is a phrase I *really* don't agree with - is both insensitive and narrow-minded.
> 
> Logic is great for solving certain problems in life, not *all* of them. Sometimes a little faith goes a long way.


 

Exactly man, he's become like a figurehead for the atheist religion. Kinda like...Jesus?  And thats the first mistake a lot of religions make; they base all their ideas from one source, which is always fallible. Nothing short of divinity or science itself can speak real truth. I'm agnostic myself, as I can't stand organised religion but I do think there is something more to everything. I think we all need an open mind.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

Necris said:


> Whether I agree with the billboard or not I don't see why people getting offended by a billboard is newsworthy, or even a a big deal.


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## Necris (Dec 10, 2010)

^ That's exactly what I was going to post.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Oh I agree fact has its place, but on things like this, which can't be confirmed either way, what does fact achieve? And this isn't a trial, no one here has commit a crime. There is a freedom to believe what you want in this world, and you shouldn't be presuctued because of that. Being gay is not biologically correct, we're not supposed to be gay. But would you tell a gay person their life is wrong because we're not naturally supposed to be that way? No, because its not right.
> 
> Sometimes you just need to leave people to their own ends, even if it goes against what you percieve as fact. If they aren't hurting anyone, let them believe what they want.
> 
> Exactly man, he's become like a figurehead for the atheist religion. Kinda like...Jesus?  And thats the first mistake a lot of religions make; they base all their ideas from one source, which is always fallible. Nothing short of divinity or science itself can speak real truth. I'm agnostic myself, as I can't stand organised religion but I do think there is something more to everything. I think we all need an open mind.



So much win in one post. I'm so proud I could cry!


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Oh I agree fact has its place, but on things like this, which can't be confirmed either way, what does fact achieve? And this isn't a trial, no one here has commit a crime. There is a freedom to believe what you want in this world, and you shouldn't be presuctued because of that.



Agreed. I just thought it was a funny way to argue your point. Kind of like saying "What, you think you can get away with murder just because you didn't do it?!"

And that is what conspiracies are for...


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> So much win in one post. I'm so proud I could cry!


 



You win more sir, for posting Steve Hughes. Love that guy.



Treeunit212 said:


> Agreed. I just thought it was a funny way to argue your point. Kind of like saying "What, you think you can get away with this just because you didn't do it?!"
> 
> And that is what conspiracies are for..


 
Just because someone is technically 'right' doesn't mean they can parade around having a go at people and being a dick like some of these high and mighty atheists do. If you know you're right thats great, but it doesn't make you 'better' than anyone.


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

Indeed. And that can go both ways as well.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Just because someone is technically 'right' doesn't mean they can parade around having a go at people and being a dick like some of these high and mighty atheists do. If you know you're right thats great, but it doesn't make you 'better' than anyone.



'Knowing' that you're 'right' is a very flimsy position that people seem to assume is very sturdy. Look at science - things often presented to us as fact often change once we gain new knowledge. That's the way life works; you only ever know as much as you know at the time of question and sticking to that position for whatever reason is entirely pointless because you will gain better knowledge at a later time. Just being open to change can make a huge difference, not only to yourself but to others too.


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## Explorer (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Atheism pisses me off, because these people seem to think they can get away with anything by justifying it with 'fact' and 'oh but Christians have done the same'. How about not lowering yourself to their level? Many atheists core argument is the violence and militant forcing of beliefs religions often have, and yet atheists have become a religion themselves and just as forcing of their opinions on people. So their reasoning for this hate campaign can't be based on protest against that. This only leaves their wish to force more people to believe in atheism (preaching?), which they are doing with controvserial and offensive ads. They're fighting fire with fire. Thats why I lost my patience with athiesm (well, militant atheists) a long time ago. When you become what you started fighting against its time to call it quits.
> 
> I think we should ust be tolerant, because taking the moral highground is the best way to live.



So, you're pissed at the outspoken atheists in question for being like outspoken Christians... and, at the same time, you are stating how you believe someone should act, and that those who move beyond what you decree acceptable are... intolerable.

*laugh*

Irony is everywhere... and so is intolerance.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

Explorer said:


> So, you're pissed at the outspoken atheists in question for being like outspoken Christians... and, at the same time, you are stating how you believe someone should act, and that those who move beyond what you decree acceptable are... intolerable.
> 
> *laugh*
> 
> Irony is everywhere... and so is intolerance.



Intolerable? Dude his post says that we should all be more tolerant!


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## Holy Katana (Dec 10, 2010)

They've been doing billboards somewhat like these for a while now every Christmas.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> 'Knowing' that you're 'right' is a very flimsy position that people seem to assume is very sturdy. Look at science - things often presented to us as fact often change once we gain new knowledge. That's the way life works; you only ever know as much as you know at the time of question and sticking to that position for whatever reason is entirely pointless because you will gain better knowledge at a later time. Just being open to change can make a huge difference, not only to yourself but to others too.


 
Exactly man, I mean theres this assumption that science is correct and we should all live our lives according to it. Yeah, its the best thing to go by, but can you have faith in science? Can you learn morality from it? No, because its just processed evidence. Thats where religion has the upper hand. They're all stories written to inspire, to teach us the correct way to live our life. They were never meant to be taken literally, but to be treated like stories with morals. Unfortunately people took them the wrong way, and their original use has long since been lost. I mean the texts are largely irrelevant and out of context compared to today, but if we treated them that way theres still a lot we could learn from them universally.



Explorer said:


> So, you're pissed at the outspoken atheists in question for being like outspoken Christians... and, at the same time, you are stating how you believe someone should act, and that those who move beyond what you decree acceptable are... intolerable.
> 
> *laugh*
> 
> Irony is everywhere... and so is intolerance.


 
Do I go around telling people they're wrong? Do I make billboards and go on telly saying how everyone is wrong and I'm not? No, because like I said, people are better left to it and that would be hypocritical of me. We are however, having a discussion and I feel my opinion on how people should be behave could be useful. I'm not saying anyone has to listen to me. I think you need to see m points in context compared to the story the OP posted. At the end of teh day, I have an opinion, and of course I believe in my opinion and I would be biased towards people feeling the same. But if you don't fuck it, it don't bother me.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Exactly man, I mean theres this assumption that science is correct and we should all live our lives according to it. Yeah, its the best thing to go by, but can you have faith in science? Can you learn morality from it? No, because its just processed evidence. Thats where religion has the upper hand. They're all stories written to inspire, to teach us the correct way to live our life. They were never meant to be taken literally, but to be treated like stories with morals. Unfortunately people took them the wrong way, and their original use has long since been lost. I mean the texts are largely irrelevant and out of context compared to today, but if we treated them that way theres still a lot we could learn from them universally.



Aye, there's a lot to be said from learning from each other rather than rejecting people because *some* of their ideals don't match ours.


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

Ohh now there's trouble in River City...


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## tacotiklah (Dec 10, 2010)

Seriously, Ross wins this thread.  (though I thought that Steve Hughes vid is hilarious.  )

Look I get that these people are atheist. It's pretty obvious. I'm as equally offended by the billboard in the OP as I am when I see people trying to "persuade" me to come to a church on christmas eve so I can sit through a boring ass play on "the real meaning" of christmas. I'm a christian myself, but I see the Atheists in the OP pulling a double standard here. They are all about "don't cram your useless, outdated religion down my throat, which is just about a foot below my brilliant, intellectual mind" but then at the same time go out of their way to pull dick moves like that billboard or go on long rants about how I'm wrong, dumb, and superstitious whenever they hear I'm christian. FFS, guys like the people that made that billboard are almost as bad as those freaks in the Westboro Baptist "Church". I don't go out of my way to shit talk what you believe, so I see no reason to have to put up with that.

And Scar is right, the term "knowledge" is subjective due to that fact that we as a species are ALWAYS learning new things about the world and universe we live in. Consider back in the 12th century. Everyone KNEW that the Earth was flat. Everyone also KNEW the Earth was also the center of the Universe AND our Solar System. Human knowledge is a fallible as anything else, and what were sound theories at one point are being debunked all the time. Instead of calling it "knowledge", I believe we should stick with the phrase "what we've learned so far".


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Exactly man, I mean theres this assumption that science is correct and we should all live our lives according to it. Yeah, its the best thing to go by, but can you have faith in science? Can you learn morality from it? No, because its just processed evidence. Thats where religion has the upper hand.



Morality is inside all of us. It was not invented in The Bible, and a lack of religion growing up does not cause a lack of morality. I am living proof of that. Though I will admit it is definitely useful in impoverished places, where morality is seldom seen when looking out the window.

Religion helps us get through the day and gives us hope, yes, but it also causes conflict and unnecessary global war and genocide (crusades, current war on terror, Israel/Palestine, etc.).

All I'm saying is, the bad outweighs the good.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> And Scar is right, the term "knowledge" is subjective due to that fact that we as a species are ALWAYS learning new things about the world and universe we live in. Consider back in the 12th century. Everyone KNEW that the Earth was flat. Everyone also KNEW the Earth was also the center of the Universe AND our Solar System. Human knowledge is a fallible as anything else, and what were sound theories at one point are being debunked all the time. Instead of calling it "knowledge", I believe we should stick with the phrase "what we've learned so far".


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

If atheists really want to convert everyone to their way of thinking, then making science feel invasive, like some eveil threat here to destroy religion. is the wrong way. We should be celebrating the beauty of science. The fact that the whole human race could be condensed into a piece of matter small enough to fit in your hand is amazing, as is everything else about nature. That doesn't disprove God, if anything that shows there is majesty and perfection more amazing than we could ever comprehend. Who is to say that isn't divinity? Religion and science fall hand in hand, they try to make sense of things. If we can appreciate that, then we can strive forwards together and find maybe God is real. God is in the details, the molecules and fibres of you body. God isn't the catalyst of creation, God is creation, Science simply explains how.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

Treeunit212 said:


> Morality is inside all of us. It was not invented in The Bible, and a lack of religion growing up does not cause a lack of morality. I am living proof of that. Though I will admit it is definitely useful in impoverished places, where morality is seldom seen when looking out the window.
> 
> Religion helps us get through the day and gives us hope, yes, but it also causes conflict and unnecessary global war and genocide (crusades, current war on terror, Israel/Palestine, etc.).
> 
> All I'm saying is, the bad outweighs the good.


 
Agreed, its sad we need a book to teach morality, but some people find it comfort and it works for them. And if something gives someone a sense of morality, who are we to knock that? Religion sure causes conflict, but those people aren't the masses and should be treated separately. We need to address the problem of the conlfict itself, not simply blame it on that religion as a whole.


I should add that its late and I'm starting to chat complete shit.


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## Varcolac (Dec 10, 2010)

Axial Tilt: it's the reason for the season. Grow up and shut up. Past that I'm too argued to drink.

Odin wishes you a merry Yule.


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> If atheists really want to convert everyone to their way of thinking, then making science feel invasive, like some eveil threat here to destroy religion. is the wrong way.



As long as the Separation of Church and State stays intact, I'm fine. 

Yay founding fathers with foresight!


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

Being completely atheist or completely religious are both stupid. Both state that they _know _for sure what the truth is while, at this moment in time, there isn't enough evidence to prove either the argument for the existence or non-existence of a deity.

While I myself am an _atheist_ I am truly more of an _agnostic atheist_ which pretty much means that, although I personally don't believe in a god or gods, I also have the intelligence to say that at this point in time, there isn't enough evidence to completely prove or disprove the existence of a god.

But, that being said, there is almost certainly no god out there, and although it can't be proven now, it will be proven in the future through scientific advancements and the exploration of the universe. Sticking to faith is petty and silly. Live your life as a good person, and if a god does exist and an afterlife does too, then you're pretty much in because you lived as a good person that made life better for those around.

If you, however, live your life as a good person and then after you die a god exists and won't let you in an afterlife because he says "you didn't believe in me", then he is a petty god and if this happens to me I'm glad I don't go into his shitty afterlife, because that guy would be a huge dick if he pulled that move.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Religion and science fall hand in hand, they try to make sense of things.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Religion and science fall hand in hand, they try to make sense of things.



Yes, except one does it through logic, reason and empirical evidence. The other is just making shit up and calling it fact without a shred of evidence except a book. I don't know, which is more trustworthy?


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> Yes, except one does it through logic, reason and empirical evidence. The other is just making shit up and calling it fact without a shred of evidence except a book. I don't know, which is more trustworthy?



More to the point: which one comforts us throughout our lives and makes our lives easier to live and ourselves better people to be around?


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## Guitarman700 (Dec 10, 2010)

Its Christmas goddamit, everybody shut up and get to lovin each other.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> More to the point: which one comforts us throughout our lives and makes our lives easier to live and ourselves better people to be around?



If you need a book and fantasy to make it easier to live your life, that's pretty sad.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

No ones saying trust completely in either, but respect and learn from both. Theres elements in all religions that you can apply to your daily lives. And again 'making shit up' makes it sound like we should believe everything the bible says. Remember, its a collection of stories with morals, not a factual report.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

Guitarman700 said:


> Its Christmas goddamit, every shut up and get to lovin each other.


I love you too


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> No ones saying trust completely in either, but respect and learn from both. Theres elements in all religions that you can apply to your daily lives. And again 'making shit up' makes it sound like we should believe everything the bible says. Remember, its a collection of stories with morals, not a factual report.



Well, the amount of people that take the bible as absolutely, literal truth is pretty high, not to mention other religions like Islam which is quite militant with the Qu'ran, Sharia law, etc.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 10, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> Well, the amount of people that take the bible as absolutely, literal truth is pretty high, not to mention other religions like Islam which is quite militant with the Qu'ran, Sharia law, etc.


 
Some more so than others, but its still the minority generally. I'll admit to being a bit anti-Muslim myself because theres just so much shit surrounding that religion I don't really have time for it, but I know there are a lot of peaceful practitioners of it who treat it in a more modern, realistic manner.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> If you need a book and fantasy to make it easier to live your life, that's pretty sad.



A year ago I would've agreed with you. Now? I'm no Christian, but if someone chooses to be so I fully support them because this life can be immensely dark when you feel like you're alone. Sometimes it's not about logic, it's about what you need to get you through.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 10, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> If you need a book and fantasy to make it easier to live your life, that's pretty sad.



Thank you for proving my point in the first paragraph of my first post. I love it when people bash my belief system when I go out of my way not to do the same to theirs. My only rant was on the double standard that was made with that billboard.




Guitarman700 said:


> Its Christmas goddamit, every shut up and get to lovin each other.


That is what I believe to be the real meaning of christmas. But leave it to extremists on both sides of the table to fuck it up for each other.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Some more so than others, but its still the minority generally. I'll admit to being a bit anti-Muslim myself because theres just so much shit surrounding that religion I don't really have time for it, but I know there are a lot of peaceful practitioners of it who treat it in a more modern, realistic manner.



Islam is lame (SEE WHAT I DID THERE? ) to me, but for the few people who are peaceful (and they are truly to be respected), there's far too many who are violent, hateful towards women, and then they go into other countries (like many European countries) and just straight up start bitching about how they're right and that said countries need Sharia law and courts and all this other shit.

It's disgusting and no one wants to stand up and say "fuck you guys, you came here, you should respect OUR shit, instead of imposing your own twisted anti-humanitarian BS onto us" because they fear being called racist (when it's calling them up on their religion no their race, so wtf) and in the end no progress is ever made.

Still, when it comes to non-Islamic religions, indoctrination of children should be illegal, it's just twisted and fucked up. No excuses.


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## Scar Symmetry (Dec 10, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> Being completely atheist or completely religious are both stupid. Both state that they _know _for sure what the truth is while, at this moment in time, there isn't enough evidence to prove either the argument for the existence or non-existence of a deity.
> 
> While I myself am an _atheist_ I am truly more of an _agnostic atheist_ which pretty much means that, although I personally don't believe in a god or gods, I also have the intelligence to say that at this point in time, there isn't enough evidence to completely prove or disprove the existence of a god.



More of this, less of the bashing


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

Guitarman700 said:


> Its Christmas goddamit, everybody shut up and get to lovin each other.









EVERYBODY. LOVE. EVERYBODY.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

Treeunit212 said:


> EVERYBODY. LOVE. EVERYBODY.


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## pink freud (Dec 10, 2010)

Randy said:


> THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS!



BLITZENKRIEG!


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

But Blitzen helps pull the sleigh, unless...

THAT DOUBLE AGENT BASTARD


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## tacotiklah (Dec 10, 2010)

Randy said:


> THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS!



Christianity has this one in the bag because we got THIS GUY on our side:








/sarcasm


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)




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## Waelstrum (Dec 10, 2010)

Just to clarify: I am an atheist. (Not particularly strict, if any evidence of gods, god, or God gets discovered, I'll certainly consider it as objectively as I can.)

I think that a billboard like this are a dick move. (Not just atheist ones, but religious ones too.) However, this situation reminds me of the South Park episode where they wanted to show Muhammad, and in retaliation the extremist Muslim broadcast a cartoon that was offensive to Christians. My favorite thing about free speech is that if someone offends you, you can free speech right back at them (which is immature because your stooping to their level) and I think that this billboard is this guys way of doing that. Why is this specific billboard being selected out of all the offensive billboards on the topic of religion? It follows the narrative of atheist vs Christmas that Fox News loves so much.

I do admit that the bashing of religion is something that I find quite amusing, though. BUT it must be done in a different way to a billboard. Like Tim Minchin:





Because Tim doesn't shout it from the roof tops, but instead does this at a show where you know what you're in for, like the Behemoth thing. You can't say he didn't warn you!

On a side note, I love the way Tim can be funny and have complex music at the same time. Check the seven-eight sections in Ten Foot Cock and a Few Hundred Virgins. (Off topic I know, but it's a Music Forum after all.)


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## Treeunit212 (Dec 10, 2010)

He looks like he could be Alexi Laiho's brother..


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## PeteyG (Dec 10, 2010)

People will fight for what they believe to be right, and in the US where there is a lot of shit happening on a regular basis which flies in the face of the entire idea of freedom of, and from religion, where religious minorities and the non-religious get persecuted (people getting kicked out of office for being non-believers, etc, etc) people will reduce themselves to making dick moves like putting up billboards.

For those who are offended by it, just be glad that the message on this billboard is really quite mediocre, not all that aggressive, and not really too inflammatory, or at least not in comparison to how it could have been written.

Generally I am fine with the idea behind it, it isn't aimed at current believers, it's aimed at people who do not believe and are too afraid to speak up from within a religious family or community. There is nothing wrong with letting people know they are not alone.

And as for the morals argument happening on the last page, I can't help but butt in.

Morals are not black or white, there is no absolute moral truth, just majority moral agreement, what I mean is that there is not one single act which every single person would agree is morally wrong. Basic morals come from our innate instincts as social beings. 
We fear death and don't want to die, so it's logical that we don't bring death upon people around us, as we might rely upon them to stay alive ourselves, or worse, their loved ones may kill us in retaliation.
No successful society would survive if murder, rape, theft, and many of these other things were seen as perfectly acceptable, it makes sense as a self concerned species to surround ourselves with people who agree that killing is wrong.

More advanced morals come from our life experiences, you're told as a child to never harm others, not to lie, not to do many of these things, however we all do many of these things and learn the hard way that we will either face repercussions from doing them, or may feel bad for having done them. People who get away with doing these things are likely to go on to lead criminal lives. 

So you see, we all have different moral viewpoints, learning morals from a book is just a way to get another persons viewpoint, and if you want to get guidance by reading the moral viewpoints written by men a few thousand years ago (viewpoints that include details on who you can enslave and how much they are worth and even loopholes of how to get around freeing a slave after a specific period of time) instead of something more relevant to the here and now (I recommend Thomas The Tank Engine personally), then fair enough.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

The fact that _this _billboard is controversial is because in places like Murrika, upwards of 90% of the population are religious in some way, and with Murrika, it's Christianity that's the majority.

Think about it this way. If all three atheists in America yelled out loud simultaneously that religious billboards saying "If you don't believe, you're going to hell", you won't hear anything.

If all 275 million Christians yelled out loud simultaneously about this one billboard, the entire planet would get knocked off its axis. (numbers are exaggerated)

The problem here is that you have Christians that are pretty fucked up. There was one case a few years ago where a twelve year old kid went to school wearing a shirt that said Homosexuality is a sin, Islam is a lie, abortion is murder." The school said "you can't wear that", and the parents sued the school AND THEY FUCKING WON. Fucked up on all levels.

How much of an uproar did that get? Virtually nothing. Why? All the Christians were probably _for_ that case. They probably thought that the shirt was harmless, because it was the truth for them.

How much of an uproar will this billboard thing get? More than it needs.

The big problem is that you have a huge majority of people discriminating against others and getting away with it by claiming religious immunity. The "this is my belief and if you don't like it, you can't do anything about it, now pardon me while I go tell faggots and niggers that they are going to hell because they were born a certain way" curveball. 

The problem is that you have the majority of people who are racist bigots because of their indoctrination as a child. They spew verbal vomit while waving a book they almost certainly never read, throwing their money to their pastors and priests and threatening you to believe what they believe or you're going to burn for eternity.

Extremist religious people have _nothing_ on extremist atheists. Especially since the former outnumber the latter in sheer numbers and ignorance.


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## signalgrey (Dec 10, 2010)

fox has people on their shows so the hosts can interview themselves.


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## Randy (Dec 11, 2010)

*Arkane, take a chill pill and step back from the computer for a few. Your posts are a tad to "rage" filled and becoming borderline abusive. *


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## Razzy (Dec 11, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> The fact that _this _billboard is controversial is because in places like Murrika, upwards of 90% of the population are religious in some way, and with Murrika, it's Christianity that's the majority.
> 
> Think about it this way. If all three atheists in America yelled out loud simultaneously that religious billboards saying "If you don't believe, you're going to hell", you won't hear anything.
> 
> ...



This! A million times this!


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## Cheesebuiscut (Dec 11, 2010)




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## techcoreriffman (Dec 11, 2010)

If that fucking reporter interrupts him one more time, I will be forced to do... nothing. Because I can't. If she or anyone else wants to feel that way, then good for them. I'm gonna let them out of respect. But, the second they stop respecting me, that's when I stop respecting them. The whole "Christian children can see this" is ridiculous. What aobut all the Christian shit? Atheist children can see that. Do you think it's offensive to us? Or the Muslims, Jews, Mormons, etc... in this country. Did you ever think about that you bigot?

I like this billboard, because up until a few months ago, I was a "closet" atheist. Things like this helped me to "come out" to my family. The repurcussions have been mostly negative, but I feel much better about myself not living a lie anymore. I'm still forced to go to church and such, but now at least my family know that when they ask me what I thought of Church, they truly know I hated going. 

tl;dr: Interviewer is retarded, things like this helped me tell family I'm atheist.


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## scottro202 (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm tired and lazy, so if my point is a repost, my bad.

While I don't think the billboard's a big deal at all, I think the more outspoken of atheists (whom are annoying just as much as outspoken Christians), should realize our society in America.

Despite what we want to believe, this whole society is basically built from Christianity. Don't believe me? Go drive down the road, and see all the churches there. Then, go to the mall, and look at all the Christmas stuff there. Then, look at the number of people watch Fox News 

So, it doesn't surprise me an Atheism poster gets a helluva lot more flack than a Christianity poster. Christians vastly outnumber the Atheists, and it's kind of like a "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the oven," kinda thing.

I don't think it's right, nor do I think the Atheists deserve it, but it's the way it is, and there's very little anybody can do about it.


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## White Cluster (Dec 11, 2010)

I consider myself an atheist and while I don't condone anyone trying to shove their beliefs down my or anyone's throat I don't think the billboard is that bad at all. Calling people to question their own beliefs and use reason is 1000% more civil than telling people they're going to hell for not believing. If anything re-examining the validity of your beliefs should only make your faith that much stronger. But instead of using what has been indoctrinated in you(most of us) since birth,instead of letting the guilt that religions brand us with and the fear that it feeds upon..use reason. There are a lot of people out there lost, searching for what they believe.They've possibly been disillusioned with the belief system they were brought up on or maybe never even had one. This billboard is a call to them..

It is widely believed that Jesus was actually born in April and during the Christianization of northern Europe the church took the date of the pagan Winter Festival(solstice) and changed it to JC's B-day.Then there's all the similarities between the stories of Jesus and that of Horus and of Buddha.So many in fact that anyone that allows themselves to use reason would logically find the story of Jesus' birth to be just that..A story..a Myth. I don't question his existence just his divinity.

As far as science and religion going hand and hand..Wow..Couldn't be further from the truth. Don't believe me..Ask Galileo,,ask Copernicus,Descartes,Darwin,,etc. Ask the mother who wants to harvest stem cells to help save her dying child..My fingers would fall off trying to complete a list..

With all the religious rhetoric that is thrown about in the news,in politics,at the grocery store and at schools,is it too much to ask people to actually think. Forget the messenger..heed the message.


Dave


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 11, 2010)

Treeunit212 said:


> EVERYBODY. LOVE. EVERYBODY.



Brb, finding Fabio pictures


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## Demiurge (Dec 11, 2010)

Cheesebuiscut said:


>



This needs to be posted in every religion discussion.

I have no problem with stuff like what the OP referenced. Is it of the highest discourse? No, of course not, but that's not the point. 

All this stuff about the War on Christmas, Islamophobia, Islamofascism, Zionism, anti-Zionism, and other religious topics that gets dumped into modern political discourse- hey, even news stories about people's butt-hurtment over atheist billboards- it's a bit much for people who don't give a hoot about religion. The task of constantly having to keep the sand out of various religions' vaginae, at risk of anything from terrorist attack to social exile, is fucking exhausting! I'm all for visible indicators of a counterculture to religion available at every level of discourse- even if just to blow-off some steam, as this would be the case here.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 11, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> The problem is that you have the majority of people who are racist bigots because of their indoctrination as a child. They spew verbal vomit while waving a book they almost certainly never read, throwing their money to their pastors and priests and threatening you to believe what they believe or you're going to burn for eternity.




This has me puzzled a bit. Atheists don't believe in hell or anything like that, but are offended if someone says they are going to burn in hell. If it isn't real and you don't believe in it, then what is there to be offended by? I'm not trying to start shit, I'm just trying to follow logic. (I'm not the best at that really, but I do believe my logic and reasoning skills to be somewhat above "2+2=chair"  )

As for the the "n----rs and fa---ts" comment, well here's the fact of what's actually in the bible. Not in a single shred of text is racism accepted. In fact (can't remember the exact passages off the top of my head) but I recall these:

-Jesus plainly stated that all men and women are his mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. In other words, we are all like a family in the sense that we are all human.

-Another passage I read goes something like this:
"Any man who says he loves the Father, but hates his brother is a liar, for the truth is not in him."

Add those 2 together, and common sense dictates that the bible outlaws racism.

And what can I say? There are passages time and time again in the bible that homosexuality is sin. Why? I haven't the slightest clue. Well as a christian, I try to follow at least a majority of the rules. While I don't actually condone homosexuality per se, I do my utmost to treat gays with the same equal respect that I have for everyone else. They are still people, and most of them are good honest people at that. I figure they know what they're doing and therefore it isn't my place to beat them over the head about a lifestyle choice that isn't really any of my damn business to begin with.

I will say this, the old testament directly outlaws homosexuality, and in the new testament, the only places I've found passages against homosexuality is in the epistles. Those were essentially letters written to various churches within the first few centuries of christianity by religious leaders. Paul was exceptionally outspoken about it (calling it an abomination). Due to his exceptional zeal, I am a little leary about his teachings. I haven't read the bible in while, but I can't recall a SINGLE passage against homosexuality in the gospels. Perhaps there may be an underlying cause for this discrepancy. 



If you reread the billboard, you'll see the phrase "You KNOW it's a myth"
Sorry but the proving it thing works both ways. Since neither side can actually prove or disprove there is an existence beyond existence, what we actually know is somwhere between jack and shit. And jack has been gone for a while. It leaves the firm foundation of fact, and begins to enter the murky swamps of conjecture before moving on to the wildest thickets of guesswork. The only people that actually "know" what there is after one dies are people that are already dead. And guess what? They aren't talking.

So I think atheists and christians/muslims/jews/etc need to shake hands, agree to disagree, and both sides need to stop going out of their way to make obviously offensive propaganda. Yes I'm talking to other christians too. Idiots like the westboro church need to just shut up and actual READ about the crap they're spewing as opposed to jumping on bandwagons that are based upon the private interpretations of some nutcase. I'm glad we can agree on that latter part as well. 

What Atheists need to realize is that saying things like "people who need to find morals in a book are pretty sad" is just as offensive to christians as if a christian went around saying "non-believers are dirty heathens and will burn in hell for eternity". Even if you disagree with a person, surely you don't lack the ability to be civil with them right? So keep the other guy in mind and think before you speak. (not directed at any one person, just in general) This goes for both sides as well.


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## Prydogga (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't like how 'atheists' get lumped into one back of pricks that say the same shit that every other religion does, except in reverse.

I also don't like how *SOME*, that's *SOME* atheists go out of their way to humiliate and show disdain towards other religions, the same goes for _*SOME *_Christians, and _*SOME*_ Muslims and so on and so forth. We're all people, we all do this kind of stuff, everyone has to make a generalization.

"Some prick called me a prick for believing/not believing in (a) god! They're all a bunch of pricks!"

Like it's been said, the billboard is on par with religious billboards (I'd say other religions, but Atheism isn't one to begin with.) but yo, freedom of speech, what's wrong in someone posting their own believe, as long as they aren't using blunt force to beat a choice into someone, they're fine by me.

What does it matter anyway? Either someone believes that they are being helped/hurt by a spiritual power, or they aren't, generally the end is the same, happy, healthy people. I have to say I do kind of feel a weird feeling when someone tells me they believe in something, but I don't hold it to them, it (for the most part) doesn't change them, and I think *SOME *atheists could benefit by showing respect people for what they are.


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## PeteyG (Dec 11, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> This has me puzzled a bit. Atheists don't believe in hell or anything like that, but are offended if someone says they are going to burn in hell. If it isn't real and you don't believe in it, then what is there to be offended by? I'm not trying to start shit, I'm just trying to follow logic. (I'm not the best at that really, but I do believe my logic and reasoning skills to be somewhat above "2+2=chair"  )



Let's assume I'm a pretty nice guy, down to earth, do good deeds, rarely do any harm to anyone and when I do it happens through accident, however with all of this I am an Atheist, I don't speak out about it, I just don't buy the claims made by the Christian church. 

Now that's all well and good but based upon my rejection of the claim that Jesus Christ is the saviour of humankind, you as a Christian are bound by your religion to believe that I deserve to be subject to horrendous UN-ENDING torture and pain worse than anything we could possibly experience in our embodied human lives. You have to believe this because it is Gods will, and everything God says is the right call, so if he/she/it makes the call that I deserve it, you have to agree.

Now honestly, if any of my friends or the people I love think that I deserve any kind of pain or punishment for something I have unknowingly done, I'll be pretty offended by the fact that they feel this way, but believing the whole deserving of hell thing, that's a completely different level.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 11, 2010)

PeteyG said:


> Let's assume I'm a pretty nice guy, down to earth, do good deeds, rarely do any harm to anyone and when I do it happens through accident, however with all of this I am an Atheist, I don't speak out about it, I just don't buy the claims made by the Christian church.
> 
> Now that's all well and good but based upon my rejection of the claim that Jesus Christ is the saviour of humankind, you as a Christian are bound by your religion to believe that I deserve to be subject to horrendous UN-ENDING torture and pain worse than anything we could possibly experience in our embodied human lives. You have to believe this because it is Gods will, and everything God says is the right call, so if he/she/it makes the call that I deserve it, you have to agree.
> 
> Now honestly, if any of my friends or the people I love think that I deserve any kind of pain or punishment for something I have unknowingly done, I'll be pretty offended by the fact that they feel this way, but believing the whole deserving of hell thing, that's a completely different level.




Fair enough. Well if it were up to me, I'd let every good person of every faith (or lack thereof) in the pearly gates (wait a minute, where the hell does it say that heaven has pearly gates to begin with? )
I didn't write the book and even I take issue with some of the things in it. I'll add it to my giant list of things to ask if/whenever I meet up with God.

And who says I have to agree with anything? 
The best part about christianity (that even christians grossly ignore, thus pissing me off greatly) is that one of the fundamental things it teaches you of is free will. The ability to choose your own way. In fact (according to christian teachings) not even God is above free will. 

If anyone is wondering why the bible is written the way it is, I just can't answer because I honestly don't know. I'm sure it's wrong to cherry-pick, but really I try to spend more time doing the 'don't kill, lie, steal, and what have you' than giving a crap about whether or not adam and eve had a navel or the 'women shouldn't talk in church' thing. (btw, that was SEVERELY misinterpreted by the modern church. Paul wrote that in his epistles because people [mostly women] kept interrupting sermons with questions and other disruptive behavior. It was asking that they save questions for after church. It wasn't meant as a sexist, go-make-me-a-sammich-and-stfu thing at all, but rather a call for common courtesy.  )

It's late, so I'm sorry if I'm not making sense. Just like I don't agree with Atheists (or rather some as Alex correctly pointed out) randomly coming up to me and telling me my faith is a hokey religion all Han Solo style, I don't like christians running around condemning and downcasting anybody that doesn't agree with them.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo


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## tacotiklah (Dec 11, 2010)

Oh and to keep things even kilter and less serious, I'll post a couple of hilarious vids from comedians taking pot shots at the other side. It's all 
in good fun though:


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## JPhoenix19 (Dec 11, 2010)

PeteyG said:


> Let's assume I'm a pretty nice guy, down to earth, do good deeds, rarely do any harm to anyone and when I do it happens through accident, however with all of this I am an Atheist, I don't speak out about it, I just don't buy the claims made by the Christian church.
> 
> Now that's all well and good but based upon my rejection of the claim that Jesus Christ is the saviour of humankind, you as a Christian are bound by your religion to believe that I deserve to be subject to horrendous UN-ENDING torture and pain worse than anything we could possibly experience in our embodied human lives. You have to believe this because it is Gods will, and everything God says is the right call, so if he/she/it makes the call that I deserve it, you have to agree.
> 
> Now honestly, if any of my friends or the people I love think that I deserve anh.y kind of pain or punishment for something I have unknowingly done, I'll be pretty offended by the fact that they feel this way, but believing the whole deserving of hell thing, that's a completely different level.



As a Christian, this irks me a bit. Please, don't put words in our mouths and tell us what we believe. The Bible is very clear that we as humans have no right to make judgements about other people, and thus any Christian saying an Atheist is deserving of hell is not acting consistantly with sound Christian doctrine. The bible also tells us that whatever measure we use to judge people, it will be measured to us- and even more so. The point is that we as Christians do not have the place to tell anyone who's going to heaven or hell. It saddens me that this happens.

More on topic: try living in the bible belt. We have the highest consentration of silly church signs here, and I have a feeling some crazy nuts would get all worked up if someone put a billboard like that up. I get annoyed at all the 'reason for the season' stuff people put up, too.


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## White Cluster (Dec 11, 2010)

Putting Dane Cock in the same post/same thread/ same internet as George Carlin should be punishable by death.


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## JPhoenix19 (Dec 11, 2010)

White Cluster said:


> Putting Dane Cock...



What you did there, I see it.


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## Wolfv11 (Dec 11, 2010)

This reminds me of the time I spoke with an ex-mafia/turned christian who told me that since I'm an atheist/buddhist, I don't have any morals. 

A man who used to deal in organized crime is telling a guy who wouldn't even eat an animal about morals?

Believe what you want, fine. 
"X is comforting does not mean X is true."

But what is annoyingly unacceptable is the tyranny of the big three (Christianity, Islam, Judaism.):

-My Fiancee's brother went to Morocco on a scholarship, there was a presentation about certain religious aspects. The english translator (an islamic woman) translated information about secularism, atheism, and other 'earth religions' (buddhism, hinduism to a certain degree) wrongly. She altered what the speaker was saying by basically claiming that these specific trains of philosophic thought were completely invalid and that you can only be a good person if your a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. I believe he proceeded to have a conversation (which started to turn towards an argument) about this. (She wasn't aware that he spoke arabic) And told him that he was wrong and that there is no merit to being one of the 'earth religions'.

-Another annoying fact is how many of the Dharma centers I visit, are not in anyway supported by money from the city, yet Islamic centers, temples, and churches are. Now I don't consider Buddhism a religion to begin with, and I don't think any religious building should be supported by the state, but isn't this a double standard?

-It would be hard, or rather next to impossible to go into politics (in America) being an atheist. If you disagree, name an atheist politician.

-The indoctrination of children into religion IS brainwashing. They are NOT being asked to reasonably come to the conclusions that the established religions make- they are simply taken to church, given a book, and told 'this is real.' I myself grew up around a church and attended sunday school/confirmation class/ and all that. Not once was there ever anything being taught to the kids that taught any sort of reason, or logic to what was mentioned in the biblical stories, we were simply 'told it was the truth'. Keep in mind this is in New York City (a 'liberal' area) and Lutheran (PROTESTant). My brief experience in Catholic school was actually more sensible. I asked a priest once about non-believers (the lutherans said you could be mother theresa or ghandi, but if you don't except christ as your savior-you will go to hell) The Catholic priest basically said 'do good things, follow a good conscience, and you go to heaven). No I'm past the point of believing in any of these things, but if I had to-I'd side with the Catholic on that.


Atheism, or any questioning of religious values/beliefs is ALWAYS looked down upon. 

I have met many 'Christians' and other believers who do have modern approaches to their faith-they acknowledge the fact of evolution. They don't believe Mary was a virgin, and don't fully believe in a 'bearded man in the sky'. This all well and good, for them, but the majority DON'T accept evolution as fact (natural selection is the theory to how it works-but evolution is a fact) they believe a virgin gave birth, they believe the earth was flooded and ALL the species of animals went on a wooden boat built by a man and his family, and they do so blindly.

But of course, not even 'proof' will convince those who have 'faith'


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## liamh (Dec 11, 2010)

White Cluster said:


> Putting Dane Cock in the same post/same thread/ same internet as George Carlin should be punishable by death.


 I know man...He has to be the least funny 'comedian' ever.


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## Daggorath (Dec 11, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I agree with everything said in this post, which is why I don't worship the ground that Richard Dawkins walks on like some other atheists do. I am an atheist myself, but I don't use that as an excuse to be insensitive towards the religions of the world. Those religions exist for a reason and to instantly trash all of them on the grounds of 'superior logic' - which is a phrase I *really* don't agree with - is both insensitive and narrow-minded.
> 
> Logic is great for solving certain problems in life, not *all* of them. Sometimes a little faith goes a long way.



Religious apologetics have done more to harm society than the militant atheists such as Dawkins. Anyone who doesn't speak up against something that they disagree with and know causes harm to humans seems a little spineless to me. As I've said before, I used to think like that myself - but I've realised that the way that dogma breeds is by the ones who disagree not saying anything. It's like the officers in Nazi Germany who disagreed but never spoke out, do you think they were acting ethically?


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## Demiurge (Dec 11, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> Religious apologetics have done more to harm society than the militant atheists such as Dawkins.



Agreed. Many apologists seem to want to believe that religions categorically promote all of the good stuff in life and stand against all of the bad things. Folks like Dawkins know better than to let religion try to take the bully pulpit because, well, there will be bullying.

Look at this: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-current-events/139867-ugandas-kill-gays-bill-wtf.html

THIS is why reason should get first-billing over superstition. Fine, fine- if life is a journey blah blah blah, religion can ride-along in the car, maybe even hold the map once in awhile, but no fucking way should we let it get behind the wheel.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 11, 2010)

YEAH, LET'S KILL ALL THOSE BASTARD CHRISTIANS!!!!! FUCK 'EM ALL!!!! THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING WRONG IN THE WORLD AND DESERVE TO DIE THE MOST EXCRUCIATING DEATH BY BEING FORCED TO WATCH JUSTIN BIEBER CONCERTS UNTIL THEY COMMIT SUICIDE!!!!!!! THEY ARE ALL THE SAME AND THERE IS NOOOOOO SUCH THING AS A GOOD CHRISTIAN! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM BELIEVE IN KILLING GAYS, MINORITIES AND ANYONE ELSE THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM!!!!!












This is what I think of the flagrant christian bashing here:


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## groph (Dec 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Atheism pisses me off, because these people seem to think they can get away with anything by justifying it with 'fact' and 'oh but Christians have done the same'. How about not lowering yourself to their level? Many atheists core argument is the violence and militant forcing of beliefs religions often have, and yet atheists have become a religion themselves and just as forcing of their opinions on people. So their reasoning for this hate campaign can't be based on protest against that. This only leaves their wish to force more people to believe in atheism (preaching?), which they are doing with controvserial and offensive ads. They're fighting fire with fire. Thats why I lost my patience with athiesm (well, militant atheists) a long time ago. When you become what you started fighting against its time to call it quits.
> 
> I think we should ust be tolerant, because taking the moral highground is the best way to live.


 
Same here, pretty much. Obviously people are worked up because atheism goes against the grain and Christianity is of course very established and institutionalized but I completely agree about atheists/atheism trying to stick ideas in people's faces too. It's kind of ironic.

Science is certainly not a flawless system so committing to it using "fact" as your ultimate point to fall back on kind of misses the whole point of freedom of thought. The scientific method isn't perfect, and bias is present everywhere. It's not a simple matter of true vs false. Religion is fucked up too, which is why I'm not religious. I don't believe that there is a God out there, at least not in the traditional sense. I don't see what purpose a God could possibly serve.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 11, 2010)

By all means stand up against aspects of religion you disagree with, but if you do it as agressively and offensively as they do, then who are you to talk? If like a lot of these athiest figureheads, you go around telling all religious people they're deluded and that their whole way of life is the equivalent of a mental illness, then you lose any respectable argument. You can't stand against something you are guilty of yourself.

Now we're in a modern age. Forget the past for a minute, and think about religion now, because that is all the matters. If you want to take the moral high ground, and stamp out injustice brought on by religion, you have to be tolerant also. Respect those who treat religion with humanity and tolerance, and protest against those who use it for personal gain. You can't say 'all Christians are deluded' because then you're making the same broad and harsh statements some of them make about everyone else. Then you lose your argument. 

You have to understand religion has been here since the dawn of man, and its not going to change. The only way you can 'update' it is to either kill everyone off and force them to think a certain way, or inspire a new a way of thinking. These athiest big-shots aren't going to change religion, because they are doing neither. They are just insulting people the same way others have done for centuries, they just have a public platform to do so.


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## Demiurge (Dec 11, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> YEAH, LET'S KILL ALL THOSE BASTARD CHRISTIANS!!!!! FUCK 'EM ALL!!!! THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING WRONG IN THE WORLD AND DESERVE TO DIE THE MOST EXCRUCIATING DEATH BY BEING FORCED TO WATCH JUSTIN BIEBER CONCERTS UNTIL THEY COMMIT SUICIDE!!!!!!! THEY ARE ALL THE SAME AND THERE IS NOOOOOO SUCH THING AS A GOOD CHRISTIAN! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM BELIEVE IN KILLING GAYS, MINORITIES AND ANYONE ELSE THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM!!!!!



Well, I don't think anyone is really pushing that agenda. Not to be pedantic, though, lions don't normally _facepalm_ per se at the mention of Christians. Tee-hee.

Let's face it, though: in this day in age religious extremism is alive and well. All the while, moderates in the respective religions don't take much of a stand against their lunatic-fringe comrades, AND, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, most people outside of a religion are afraid to criticize for fear of sounding like a bigot or having their statement put-down by some over-the-top reductio like the all-caps thing above.

Religion: reel in your psychos, don't pretend that everything good was created by you or exists solely under your byline, and play nicely with others. Until then, don't be upset when people take pot-shots.


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## vampiregenocide (Dec 11, 2010)

Religion is no where near as extreme as it used to be. Its calmed down a lot. But then not many people remember the Crusades.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> By all means stand up against aspects of religion you disagree with, but if you do it as agressively and offensively as they do, then who are you to talk? If like a lot of these athiest figureheads, you go around telling all religious people they're deluded and that their whole way of life is the equivalent of a mental illness, then you lose any respectable argument. You can't stand against something you are guilty of yourself.
> 
> Now we're in a modern age. Forget the past for a minute, and think about religion now, because that is all the matters. If you want to take the moral high ground, and stamp out injustice brought on by religion, you have to be tolerant also. Respect those who treat religion with humanity and tolerance, and protest against those who use it for personal gain. You can't say 'all Christians are deluded' because then you're making the same broad and harsh statements some of them make about everyone else. Then you lose your argument.
> 
> You have to understand religion has been here since the dawn of man, and its not going to change. The only way you can 'update' it is to either kill everyone off and force them to think a certain way, or inspire a new a way of thinking. These athiest big-shots aren't going to change religion, because they are doing neither. They are just insulting people the same way others have done for centuries, they just have a public platform to do so.




Thank you so much Ross! 
This is what the sarcasm in my last post was implying. The way some of these posts here sound, you'd think I (among every other christian in the world) was on my way to go start an inquisition and then start a good ol' fashion lynching before stopping at the store to pick up a few things on my way home. For god's sakes people, stop making blanket statements about how every religious person is what's wrong with the world when, in most cases, it's power hungry fanatics that rise up with false interpretations of what said religion is that go around offing all these minorities and passing bullshit laws. I completely concede that when placed in the wrong hands, it's a recipe that spells disaster and an atrocity of enormous proportions. However, I've seen people that were poor, starving and homeless find religion and have turned their lives around for the better. I've seen people with severe emotional issues find comfort and solice with faith. Problem is that people will focus on ONLY the negative, so long as it fits into their argument. They can't just take a step back and look at the WHOLE picture.

I'm with the group that says religion and government should be completely separated from each other. I'm also with the group that says that religion and common sense are NOT mutually exclusive.

Look just because I believe a certain way does NOT MAKE ME THE SAME as these other nutcases that go around offing gay people and what have you. I try to live my life in peace and think of other people as much as myself. That was the original point of christianity, back when it didn't add all the other bullshit. Leave it to overzealous psychopaths to ruin what was once a beautiful thing.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 11, 2010)

Demiurge said:


> Well, I don't think anyone is really pushing that agenda. Not to be pedantic, though, lions don't normally _facepalm_ per se at the mention of Christians. Tee-hee.
> 
> Let's face it, though: in this day in age religious extremism is alive and well. All the while, moderates in the respective religions don't take much of a stand against their lunatic-fringe comrades, AND, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, most people outside of a religion are afraid to criticize for fear of sounding like a bigot or having their statement put-down by some over-the-top reductio like the all-caps thing above.
> 
> Religion: reel in your psychos, don't pretend that everything good was created by you or exists solely under your byline, and play nicely with others. Until then, don't be upset when people take pot-shots.




Well one of the reasons I'm more or less outcasted by modern churches is because I actually STAND UP to them. I call them out on their b.s. just as much as I would anybody else. As I mentioned before, through careful reading of the epistles, the whole "women should be seen and not heard in church because we're sexist bastards" thing can be debunked. As is racism, and many other things. 

The problem that I see with the modern church is that they don't pay attention to the most important commandment. You know, the one that trumps any and everything else. What commandment is that? 

"Love thy neighbor, as thou love thyself. Of all of these, this is the greatest commandment."

Any time I see a christian killing/hurting/etc a person in the name of said religion, I facepalm as hard as the lion because the above rule is more important to the faith than the rest of them.


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## Waelstrum (Dec 11, 2010)

I didn't notice a particularly large amount of "all Christians are racist, homophobic, zealots that will kill anything they don't understand/agree with" in this thread. Even if there is a little, let's not label all atheists as anti-religious zealots. (See what I did there?) I personally couldn't be happier for people that have turned around their life with religion.


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## groph (Dec 11, 2010)

Humans are not very well suited to be religious simply because we have agendas. It would make more sense for a computer to be religious because all it knows is "yes" and "no," has complex circuits and components which govern its every operation so that tasks are performed in the exact same way every time.

I'd also say that "facts" probably don't exist. I mean, what we call gravity is our explanation for why we can have chairs, and it's pretty obvious that the Earth is a sphere that orbits the Sun instead of a flat piece of rock with the entirety of the cosmos flailing randomly around it but once some of us stepped back and exercised some humility we made a great progression in our knowledge by figuring out that we were wrong. I think being wrong is much more valuable than being right, because you can only ever know that you are wrong. You never know if you're right, so it's kind of stupid to preach to others that you are, at least that's what I think.

I also think that Richard Dawkins is Atheist God, and a total pretentious twit. I'll call that a fact. I couldn't take it when everybody started clapping in the video posted of Dawkins. All that guy has to do is say "reason" and these "intellectuals" all get raging boners and start clapping.


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## Randy (Dec 11, 2010)

*Religion threads used to get canned just as fast as they got put up on here, and this thread is a perfect example of why that is. I'm closing this one for now. I'll give it a few days and if I feel like it, I'll reopen this and see if we can carry on this conversation with a little more civility.*


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