# How 8 string and 9 string guitars change the role of the bass player in metal.



## luca9583 (Dec 9, 2010)

I was thinking that since 8 string and 9 string guitars have been introduced, the sonic role of the bass player has changed a lot.

Basically, most bands that use 8 strings tuned to low F# have a bass player that is playing in the same octave..unless they're using a Warwick Darklord bass that goes to F# 0. But if the bass player has a normal 5 string bass, they can play lower than the guitars when the guitars remain in 7 string territory, but then end up playing "higher" when the guitars go "lower"!!!

I was listening closely to the mixes of bands like Meshuggah, Deftones and Ion Dissonance and it seems that the bass guitar is always cut in the lower frequencies below 100 hz to bring out the heaviness of the 8 strings (in much the same way that old school thrash records had an almost inaudible bass sound)

Ironic isn't it, given that the bottom end of a bass sounds good around 80hz?!!!


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## arsonist (Dec 9, 2010)

Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:

how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or. 
But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's fucking awesome!!


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## luca9583 (Dec 9, 2010)

arsonist said:


> Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:
> 
> how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
> I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or.
> But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's fucking awesome!!



Great point about bridging the 2 worlds! A great example of that is Charlie Hunter, who plays both and guitar and bass simultaneously, eliminating the need for a bass player in his band.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2010)

Seeing as 8s are still deeply set in a niche, and 9s are almost non-existent I'd say that not a whole lot has changed. We'll see in a decade or two.


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## Necris (Dec 9, 2010)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/beginners-faq/138927-so-what-does-bass-do-8-string-band.html


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 9, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Seeing as 8s are still deeply set in a niche, and 9s are almost non-existent I'd say that not a whole lot has changed. We'll see in a decade or two.



In a decade or two, 15 string downtuned basstars will be standard in every genre (including pop), and music will reach a whole new audience...dogs, because they're going to be the only ones who can hear those frequencies .


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## luca9583 (Dec 9, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> In a decade or two, 15 string downtuned basstars will be standard in every genre (including pop), and music will reach a whole new audience...dogs, because they're going to be the only ones who can hear those frequencies .



Ha ha ha ha!!!!


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> In a decade or two, 15 string downtuned basstars will be standard in every genre (including pop), and music will reach a whole new audience...dogs, because they're going to be the only ones who can hear those frequencies .



Crazy things can happen, both big and small over that amount of time. Just look at the life of the 7-string, solid body, electric guitar. 

1990 - Hits mass market.
1995 - Almost goes extinct.
2000 - Gets HUGE, even more so than before.
2005 - Interest fades once again. 
2010 - It's even more popular than it's "peak" back in 00'. 

The point being, no one can really predict what will be in and out of fashion in the guitar world. Who knows, in a decade there may be fewer 7s and 8s than there are now. It's a surprising concept for those who are too used to the widespread acceptance of ERGs on this board.


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## Antimatter (Dec 9, 2010)

This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?


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## luca9583 (Dec 9, 2010)

Antimatter said:


> This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?



I know what you mean.

I think it's a radical decision that has to be made in the mixing process..the Meshuggah recorded 8 string guitars have a lot of low end information in them that goes below 100 hz..i think that is why they have to cut those frequencies out of the bass. Their bass sound adds a subtle layer of distortion and attack to the overall mix, but doesn't provide any "pumping" bass sound.

Same goes for their snare sound..which on recent albums has a lot of higher frequency snap and not much bottom end fatness in order to leave space for the massive guitars.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Dec 9, 2010)

Antimatter said:


> This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?


 
IIRC Nothing was recorded without a bass. That was when they got the new 8 strings and recorded (with detuned 7s) without Gustaf Heim (prior to sacking him too). 

Somebody confrim this?

EDIT: If so, keep in mind that this was back in 2002, and that every subsquent release had bass in it.


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## Hollowway (Dec 10, 2010)

There's a lot of room for creativity, too. Anyone remember Ned's Atomic Dustbin? Not metal, but they had two bass players - one that held down the low end, and one that played higher up doing the melody. Their guitarist does more rhythmic, sometimes ska type stuff.
And then there's Primus, where the bass takes up room for the guitar because Claypool is a maniac on his instrument.
So IMO we should be experimenting with alternatives to the bass playing the root of the guitar one octave lower.


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## LordCashew (Dec 10, 2010)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> IIRC Nothing was recorded without a bass. That was when they got the new 8 strings and recorded (with detuned 7s) without Gustaf Heim (prior to sacking him too).
> 
> Somebody confrim this?



No way. In fact there's some pretty obviously audible bass in Stengah, especially in the original mix. You can really hear it starting around :48 when the guitars are semi-muted and the bass sustains.

I remember hearing something about one of the guitarists also playing bass at some point. Maybe that's what happened if they fired their bassist before recording.


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## gs_waldemar (Dec 10, 2010)

I find it interesting how my fellow musicians (especially bass guitar players) often discuss the matter whether you can hear the bass in song XY or not. The idea of the bass guitar made sense in classical music, where it has a clearly defined position, between the other mid- and highranged instruments, so that the whole orchestra can cover most audible frequencies and produca full sounding music.
So if you have a guitar thats goes as low as a bass, you technically dont need a "bass guitar" (I wonder why we call that drop-x, 152-string thing a guitar anyway...)...

If you can cover the lower freq with a keyboard, guitar or whatever you dont "need" a bass guitar. If you play rock-like music, the bass there coops with the drums while the guitar doeas more of a melody/independant thing...

I personally find the bass player of Amon Amarth & co. really ridiculous, still I like some of their stuff. You just never hear any bass guitar work in their music. It would be an innovation if some instrument started covering the midrange in metal again, since all the trve metal guitarists seem to be more interested in the bass guitar frequencies.


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## ev1ltwin (Dec 10, 2010)

gs_waldemar said:


> I find it interesting how my fellow musicians (especially bass guitar players) often discuss the matter whether you can hear the bass in song XY or not. The idea of the bass guitar made sense in classical music, where it has a clearly defined position, between the other mid- and highranged instruments, so that the whole orchestra can cover most audible frequencies and produca full sounding music.
> So if you have a guitar thats goes as low as a bass, you technically dont need a "bass guitar" (I wonder why we call that drop-x, 152-string thing a guitar anyway...)...
> 
> If you can cover the lower freq with a keyboard, guitar or whatever you dont "need" a bass guitar. If you play rock-like music, the bass there coops with the drums while the guitar doeas more of a melody/independant thing...
> ...



this is basically what i was going to say. the bass just takes up the lower frequencies to make music sound full. even if you're playing an 8 string, if you're going through a traditional guitar amp and cabinet, it's not going to replace the bass guitar's role at all.

for example, a new EVM-12L (a 300W kickass 12" speaker) has a Usable Frequency Response of 80-5,000Hz. The audible range for undamaged human ears is 20-20,000. So you're missing out on 2 octaves lower and 2 octaves higher of audible range with this particular guitar speaker.

EDIT: if you've ever heard a 40Hz clear test signal, you know what you're missing


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## bostjan (Dec 10, 2010)

I haven't seen any mass change in the role of bass guitar in heavy music in general in the past fifteen years. 

I do remember, though, when many five string basses were tuned EADG + high C. Nowadays, it's difficult to find anything about these basses, so maybe it will come down to seven string basses being tuned with low F#s rather than high Fs. Or maybe not...


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## TMM (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't think the role really changes from what it is now... basic goal is to fill out the low end. As much as there are 8+ string guitars, tuned ridiculously low in some cases, the guitar speaker reproducing the tone is still not going to accurately reproduce some of those low frequencies that the bass / bass speakers will. Beyond that, there are plenty of bands where the bass player is as all-over-the-place frequency-wise as some guitarists are. Just check out Viraemia.


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## matt moulton (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't agree when people say that it doesn't sound as heavy with bass playing unison. Even though it's the same note the bass is still crushing.

When I started recording 8 string parts I tried muting the bass every once in a while and the mix sounds really sissy without it, 8 string or not.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 12, 2010)

A 34 or 35" scale bass guitar playing low E is going to sound very different than even a 30" scale 8-string guitar playing low E. The amount of string tension is different and the tonal profile is different, and even if you played them through the same rig, it's going to sound very different.

In my experience, guitars (even when tuned down to low F#) sound best high passed above 200Hz or so (generally a little higher even), and a gradual high pass rolloff below 80-120Hz for the bass guitar to make room for the kick is excellent for "clearing up" a mix. Even if you're running some monstrosity tuned to drop Z, the bass has an important role to play, and you should leave those frequencies to someone truly equipped to create and reproduce them 

After all, especially with distortion, all you're hearing is the higher harmonics anyways; the fundamental is pretty well obscured. Most bass rigs can't even reproduce the fundamental of the low B string on a 5-string bass at anywhere close to the level of its first overtone.


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## capo_fez (Dec 13, 2010)

I have to agree with Matt. I have done the same experiment and it sounds very thin without bass in the mix. That's not to say it can't sound good. I have played bass and guitar with multiple projects that were using 8-string guitars and it really didn't make sense sometimes to go that octave lower. I found it more of a tone issue as opposed to tonic. I also found it very helpful to play various harmonies instead of unison, but it all came back to what the music needed to sound full.


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## Variant (Dec 13, 2010)

> A 34 or 35" scale bass guitar playing low E is going to sound very different than even a 30" scale 8-string guitar playing low E. The amount of string tension is different and the tonal profile is different, and even if you played them through the same rig, it's going to sound very different.
> 
> In my experience, guitars (even when tuned down to low F#) sound best high passed above 200Hz or so (generally a little higher even), and a gradual high pass rolloff below 80-120Hz for the bass guitar to make room for the kick is excellent for "clearing up" a mix. Even if you're running some monstrosity tuned to drop Z, the bass has an important role to play, and you should leave those frequencies to someone truly equipped to create and reproduce them
> 
> After all, especially with distortion, all you're hearing is the higher harmonics anyways; the fundamental is pretty well obscured. Most bass rigs can't even reproduce the fundamental of the low B string on a 5-string bass at anywhere close to the level of its first overtone.



^
This. 





My main project, *The Surfacing*, employs some idiotically low tunings on our guitars.  It's been somewhat of an ongoing project to make it all work and sound awesome. I'm exrodinarily happy with the results thus far, though. I feel like we've crafted our own sound by going unthinkably lower just as Meshuggah did. 

Interestingly, so far as the bass guitar goes, it has _*DOUBLED*_ it's role in holding down the meat of the mix... not reduced it's significance.  There are two different bass tracks (running to four different mixer channels), *one*, a unison bass that is the same octave as the low guitar stuff, and *two*, a sub-bass sound which is a homebrew sampler made up of multisamples of subcontra bass an octave below that, triggered by MIDI. The later is low-passed just below the meat of the kicks, with some specific shelving in the upper mids to bring out the transient attack sounds. I *did not* want the sub-bass to sound like a subharmonic snyth, i.e. a flat, sustained sine wave.  While the heavy compression makes the body of the note work more-or-less like that, there is a distinct attack, slight bowing of the note, and some intentional dynamic falloff, just like the bass an octave above. In fact, it's got such nice punch and boom that there is no need for any sub-kick channel content so long as the bass is playing. 

Now, the unison bass is high passed off just above the kick (really, the mirrored high/low passes have a fairly soft knee, to create a mild notch, then a mild multiband sidechain is keyed to both sub _*and*_ unison bass channels to tuck in the meat of the kick when it hits) and does most of it's gruntwork where a regular bass would be in the ~75 Hz region. 

Guitars, on the other hand, it doesn't matter _*how low*_ of a note is chugging, they get high passed off just above that, and don't really carry *any* strong content below 90 Hz or so. This is pretty much how any good, modern metal mix goes, and kinda the role of distorted/amped guitar in general. It's an instrument of overtones.  There really no fundamental to speak of there, and the first order overtones are more or less gone as well, it's *really* the second order where the sound starts. At least in our case, we tune down for the *tonality* of it, not to employ that frequency content. 

So, yeah, IMO, the bass is *the* part of the mix I start and end with every time as it's the guts and "gel" in the overall guitar/drum sound. You can, of course, probably take a different approach to it altogether and nix the bass if that's your desired sound... but I heart the huge rumbly guts plus big sub quake in our mixes and thus ERG's have not taken basses out of our respective studios at all.


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## Hollowway (Dec 13, 2010)

Rep for you, man. That was an awesome explanation. Can't say i understand all of the eq stuff, but it's cool you took the time to explain it all.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 13, 2010)

Guitarists have been trying to edge out bass players for decades. They haven't succeeded yet, and adding a few extra strings isn't gonna change that!


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## MintBerryCrunch (Dec 14, 2010)

i think the large majority of metal bands use bass players for little more than "suboctave rootnote riff" playing anyway. when i was 14 i was gonna get my first guitar until i heard mudvayne's LD 50 album which im pretty sure is the most standout non-traditional bass guitar metal album ever. dude is so damn good, rarely played the same riff as guitar outside of choruses and it made sense musically. so i opted for bass and have been playing the last 7 or 8 years. with that said i rarely come across a metal band where the bass player is doing little more than playing roots with the occasional one or two songs on a given album where the bass player will play an intro or some type of melodic bridge.

in other words. bass will probably remain a supportive instrument whether it's to solidify the F# with a solid whole non distorted sound or to go yet an octave lower. either way you cut it, you'll more than likely have to go to a more "unique" band/album to get an active bass sound that doesn't sound like it's clashing with the over all metal tone of an album.


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## CONTEMPT (Dec 16, 2010)

Q: How 8 string and 9 string guitars change the role of the bass player in metal?

A: They make bass players do the same thing we do: add more strings. 8 string guitar calls for a six string bassist. A nine string guitar calls for both of the people out there that actually own one to come back to reality and play eight. =)


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## bostjan (Dec 16, 2010)

CONTEMPT said:


> Q: How 8 string and 9 string guitars change the role of the bass player in metal?
> 
> A: They make bass players do the same thing we do: add more strings. 8 string guitar calls for a six string bassist. A nine string guitar calls for both of the people out there that actually own one to come back to reality and play eight. =)



Really?

I have yet to see a band use ERG and ERB at the same time.


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## CONTEMPT (Dec 16, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Really?
> 
> I have yet to see a band use ERG and ERB at the same time.



Periphery?


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## Xiphos68 (Dec 16, 2010)

Into the future.

Guitarist have 8 strings and 9 strings.
Basses get 11 and 13 strings.


I could see basses becoming more of a lead guitar approach in the future. Sort of like Billy Sheehan or the guy from Obscura.
Then like guitars almost similar being bass like.


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## Variant (Dec 17, 2010)

CONTEMPT said:


> Periphery?



Isn't Tom's bass a 5-string? I was under the impression, that historically speaking, basses were not considered to be extended range until 6-strings were employed. Interestingly, the 5-string bass (which is more often strung with a low B and not a high C) side-steps out of the conventional guitar's range quite a bit, so until you're tuning down to B or using a 7, the two instruments are not in "lock-step", per se.

Frankly, this is about having suitable note choice and not weather the instrument range is extended. I think guitarists generally miss the top end far more as a result of tuning down, hence the 7- and 8-string thing. I could see a band with an eight string guitarist and 4 string bassist working fine. But, that all depends very much on the bass player.

So far as notes go, the question in the extreme low register is weather to keep the bass an octave down, play those notes in unison, or (in my case) both.


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## CONTEMPT (Dec 17, 2010)

Variant said:


> Isn't Tom's bass a 5-string? I was under the impression, that historically speaking, basses were not considered to be extended range until 6-strings were employed. Interestingly, the 5-string bass (which is more often strung with a low B and not a high C) side-steps out of the conventional guitar's range quite a bit, so until you're tuning down to B or using a 7, the two instruments are not in "lock-step", per se.
> 
> Frankly, this is about having suitable note choice and not weather the instrument range is extended. I think guitarists generally miss the top end far more as a result of tuning down, hence the 7- and 8-string thing. I could see a band with an eight string guitarist and 4 string bassist working fine. But, that all depends very much on the bass player.
> 
> So far as notes go, the question in the extreme low register is weather to keep the bass an octave down, play those notes in unison, or (in my case) both.



I think you may be taking me too seriously. To be honest my entire first post really a vehicle for that 'both nine string guitarists out there' quip. 

An 8 string guitar and a 6 string bass is a good match if you're going for either conventional guitar and bass play in a deeper register, or if you just want to have serious low-end. Really any combination of guitar and bass is going to be more about the players than anything else.

In the formation of a new musical project I'm in that uses my eight string along with a six string guitarist and an absolute fuckton of MIDI, there's been a lot of discussions with other musicians I know about how to incorporate a bass into the mix, with ideas ranging from a four-string bass playing lead parts when I'm on the low and playing low when I'm playing higher register stuff, and mirroring pretty much the same thing on both the eight and the bass during heavy parts to add punchiness (think the main riff from Periphery's 'Icarus Lives!') to bringing in a six string bassist that taps a lot and every damn thing in between.

The point is that, in my opinion, a guitar is still a guitar and a bass is still a bass. Granted that eight strings may share some notation and range with basses, but the character is completely different to my ears. Even times when I'm playing clean parts on my eight that might be a bit 'bassey' they sound to me less like the thick, booming tones of a bass and more like the sharper, brighter characteristics of a guitar.

So, really, let the bass players play their bass. Musicians make better music working together anyhow.


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## LacesOutTyler (Dec 17, 2010)

CONTEMPT said:


> An 8 string guitar and a 6 string bass is a good match if you're going for either conventional guitar and bass play in a deeper register, or if you just want to have serious low-end. Really any combination of guitar and bass is going to be more about the players than anything else.
> 
> In the formation of a new musical project I'm in that uses my eight string along with a six string guitarist and an absolute fuckton of MIDI, there's been a lot of discussions with other musicians I know about how to incorporate a bass into the mix, with ideas ranging from a four-string bass playing lead parts when I'm on the low and playing low when I'm playing higher register stuff, and mirroring pretty much the same thing on both the eight and the bass during heavy parts to add punchiness (think the main riff from Periphery's 'Icarus Lives!') to bringing in a six string bassist that taps a lot and every damn thing in between.
> 
> ...



/thread


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## Prydogga (Dec 17, 2010)

Xiphos68 said:


> Into the future.
> 
> Guitarist have 8 strings and 9 strings.
> Basses get 11 and 13 strings.
> ...



I don't see that happening, one of the reasons a bass is used is because it fills the low frequency and acts the same way drums do, keeping everyone else in check, if the bass is doing leads, and the guitar is doing rhythm, there's no real low end.


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## CONTEMPT (Dec 17, 2010)

LacesOutTyler said:


> /thread



Thank you, sir.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 17, 2010)

As a corollary to "letting the bass player play his bass," guitarists, PLEASE be reasonable with the "bass" knob on your amp, and with the volume of your halfstack in general. We don't like having to bring 2000 watt 2x 8x10 rigs just so we can be heard over your overgained scooped flubbiness.


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## bostjan (Dec 17, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> As a corollary to "letting the bass player play his bass," guitarists, PLEASE be reasonable with the "bass" knob on your amp, and with the volume of your halfstack in general. We don't like having to bring 2000 watt 2x 8x10 rigs just so we can be heard over your overgained scooped flubbiness.



+1/2
Although I like the sound of those 2000 W double 8x10 cab rigs, too many guitarists can't seem to find the "mid" knob on their amp. The "two-mile-away-amp-in-a-cardboard-box-with-a-string-tied-to-a-tin-can" tone might sound good to some people, but it's really hard to deal with when you're another guy in the band.


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## tbar (Dec 19, 2010)

here is a video that is a good example of how my band
uses the 6 string bass tuned b e a d g b , and an 8 string guitar 
tunes f# b e a d g b e


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## No2EMGs4Me (Dec 20, 2010)

When tuning down lower than B on a bass you need to get a pretty decent bass....which we all know has a pretty penny attached to it. Warwicks or another smaller named company of equal quality. I know there's a few out there, I just cant think of a name right now, or a custom one like Fender did for Christian in Fear Factory. A huge problem lower price basses have is the bridge is cheap so theres lots of bleed when youre playing on one string and the others start making noise due to vibration. Ibanez's SR's have this issue I had an SR 406 and I never truely noticed it until I bought a BTB4006(not 100% on model#) and the bridge has each string separated from one another and immediately I noticed a huge increase in the overall cleanliness of my right hand and everything sounded more articulate.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 20, 2010)

No2EMGs4Me said:


> When tuning down lower than B on a bass you need to get a pretty decent bass....which we all know has a pretty penny attached to it. Warwicks or another smaller named company of equal quality. I know there's a few out there, I just cant think of a name right now, or a custom one like Fender did for Christian in Fear Factory. A huge problem lower price basses have is the bridge is cheap so theres lots of bleed when youre playing on one string and the others start making noise due to vibration. Ibanez's SR's have this issue I had an SR 406 and I never truely noticed it until I bought a BTB4006(not 100% on model#) and the bridge has each string separated from one another and immediately I noticed a huge increase in the overall cleanliness of my right hand and everything sounded more articulate.



Actually, a friend of mine plays a Squier Vintage Modified Jazz bass (bone stock) tuned down to G, and it sounds just as good as the Warwick he used to play before he had to sell it. Don't remember the string gauge. It's all about amplification, technique and instrument setup. Quality does have something to do with it since some basses seem to have better low string response than others, but you don't necessarily need to spend $2k on a bass to tune down.


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## LordCashew (Dec 20, 2010)

No2EMGs4Me said:


> A huge problem lower price basses have is the bridge is cheap so theres lots of bleed when youre playing on one string and the others start making noise due to vibration. Ibanez's SR's have this issue I had an SR 406 and I never truely noticed it until I bought a BTB4006(not 100% on model#) and the bridge has each string separated from one another and immediately I noticed a huge increase in the overall cleanliness of my right hand and everything sounded more articulate.



I guess this may be true to a point. But with proper technique, any string you're not playing is muted, making it physically impossible for them to vibrate sympathetically. Thus cross-talk between strings becomes a non-issue.

Plus, the measures used in a lot of high-end bass bridges to maximize each individual string's resonance and sustain would also translate into increased sympathetic resonance. (Think of the "bent metal plate" on a Squier versus a solid, heavy Hipshot style A.) Even a well-constructed body and neck would also contribute to the same.

Don't get me wrong, those BTBs are great basses. I also don't see anything wrong with the individual bridges. I just feel like Ibanez over-hypes the "separation" idea.


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## Variant (Dec 20, 2010)

bostjan said:


> +1/2
> Although I like the sound of those 2000 W double 8x10 cab rigs, too many guitarists can't seem to find the "mid" knob on their amp. The "two-mile-away-amp-in-a-cardboard-box-with-a-string-tied-to-a-tin-can" tone might sound good to some people, but it's really hard to deal with when you're another guy in the band.



Thirded.  I don't understand that whole volume/cock contest that some guys get into with their amps. In the end, you're just sounding like shit and making the practice session hard for those who are trying to fucking hear themselves. I'm so glad we jam direct with headphones. 

Also, in the studio (or live, too really), the channel EQ owns your fucking low end any day of the week: 

"Boomy guitar, meet high pass filter!"


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## Samarus (Dec 20, 2010)

I think that bass offers a different kind of the same note. 8 and 9 strings are great for guitarists looking to expand their range and explore new musical possibilities. Unless everyone begins playing Charlie Hunter Novax guitars, I doubt this will be a problem. 

I do, however think that bands in the future will skip out on the live bassist like Animals as Leaders.


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## sepsis311 (Dec 20, 2010)

I have a couple 7 strings and an 8 string guitars, but I also play bass. When i was pondering picking up an 8-string, i didnt know how i would possibly be able to put bass to tracks that i record with 8-string. Well i tried it out and it worked out well, and wanted to share my experience for you guys to help because i did do some searching on the topic and didn't find what i needed.

First of all, when your playing bass, lets assume its a 5 string, or a 4 string in
B E A D (a 5 string set with the G left off).

Next, have the 8-string guitar tuned to drop E ( E B E A D G B E).

Whats important to remember is that the bass and guitar fundamentally sound different. Even if the low E on the 8 string guitar is the same octave as the bass, just remember the string thickness is different, the scale lengths are different, the pickups are different, the amps are different, etc... so you get a different tone from both instruments. Basically, it means the 8 string low E on the guitar cant replicate the lowest frequencies as the E string on the bass. So sonically it works.

Now for playability (from the bass players perspective)...
It's just like using a 5 string bass in a 6 string band, where you'd use the E string most of the time to match the E on the guitar, and drop to the B when you felt like it. Well, the principal still applies. Stay on the E on the bass, and use the B only when it applies.

Bass tuning...
Like i said im experimenting in drop E for now on the 8 string just to make things easy, and i have the bass in drop A, so i match the Bass E to the guitar's 2 E's, and go to the low B whenever, just like if the guitar was a 6 string standard.

I've been trying to figure out a method for playing to an 8 string in F# standard. I thought it might be ok to tune the bass up, but im not sure i like that idea. I also don't like the idea of constantly riding the second fret.


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## LordCashew (Dec 20, 2010)

sepsis311 said:


> I've been trying to figure out a method for playing to an 8 string in F# standard. I thought it might be ok to tune the bass up, but im not sure i like that idea. I also don't like the idea of constantly riding the second fret.



Capo.


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## ra1der2 (Dec 21, 2010)

I didn't read through everything if it's already been mentioned but also the frequency on a low B on the bass is around 30Hz, so technically it's still lower than a standard tuned 8's F# at around 46Hz.


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## HellMinor (Dec 23, 2010)

sepsis311 said:


> I have a couple 7 strings and an 8 string guitars, but I also play bass. When i was pondering picking up an 8-string, i didnt know how i would possibly be able to put bass to tracks that i record with 8-string. Well i tried it out and it worked out well, and wanted to share my experience for you guys to help because i did do some searching on the topic and didn't find what i needed.
> 
> First of all, when your playing bass, lets assume its a 5 string, or a 4 string in
> B E A D (a 5 string set with the G left off).
> ...



Cool approach man. I've done something similar, but I'll get to that later.

8 or 9 string guitar != bass

Yes it may be possible to play the same notes (tonically speaking) on either instrument, there are many other parameters that play into its overall sound (scale length, string size, string tension, material choices, amplification, etc.). Bass players won't ever be completely eliminated from metal bands for the same reason any other stringed instrument with the same sonic range hasn't (say piano for example).

In light of that, metal--like all other music--is an art form, so there is no right or wrong, only a set of practices common to most metal artists.

Tuning wise, I've used a 4 string bass in drop B (B F# B E) in conjunction with a 8 string guitar in standard. That way you've got the option of a B (either unison, or an octave below) or a unison F# to use with the 8 string. I've found it to be a useful configuration.


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## gr8Har V (Dec 23, 2010)

Antimatter said:


> This is one of the things that bothers me because back in DEI Meshuggah days the bass was pretty loud but in Nothing you could almost never hear it, and in Obzen it was a bit louder than that. They have an awesome bass tone, why waste it?


 

yea the bass in Nothing was inaudible, but in obZen, especially "Lethargica" it was always present and had that amazing dirtiness that you gotta love. 

I think the concept of trading off who has the low end and who has the high end makes perfect sense. when a bass plays high it has a melodic condensed warm tone that there's nothing wrong with. the way most people think of bass, you'd think the top 3 or 4 strings are just there for looks. i say let the guitar chug along occasionally and let the bass take the spotlight for a bit. the only bands i can think of that show off the bass more than just 3 times an album are Rush, Hourglass, and a bit of Meshuggah


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## Katrina (Dec 25, 2010)

I always thought it wouldn't be all that bad to have a drop E eight-string coupled with a bass tuned to the normal EADG.

Does anyone see how that might not work out?


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## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2010)

gr8Har V said:


> the only bands i can think of that show off the bass more than just 3 times an album are Rush, Hourglass, and a bit of Meshuggah



Yeah, the bass needs to be considered a separate instrument (IMO) and not just a guitar thickener. No one criticizes the keyboard/piano player for playing in the same register as the guitarist, so neither should they worry about the bassist. 

(And on the topic of bassists coming to the forefront in bands, I'll add to the list (not metal, mind you, but cool for working on your bass chops): RHCP, Violent Femmes, The Cure, Rancid).


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 25, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, the bass needs to be considered a separate instrument (IMO) and not just a guitar thickener. No one criticizes the keyboard/piano player for playing in the same register as the guitarist, so neither should they worry about the bassist.
> 
> (And on the topic of bassists coming to the forefront in bands, I'll add to the list (not metal, mind you, but cool for working on your bass chops): RHCP, Violent Femmes, The Cure, Rancid).



Also, add Muse, Cake, and No Doubt to that list.

Some bands just want a "guitar thickener" or "pocket player," and it can be really difficult to play "the right thing at the right time" (writing the basslines to ZZ top or AC/DC, for instance.) Generally though, two-guitar bands (and metal bands in general) make it really hard for a bass player to do much more than chug away at the low notes in unison since there's no "space" in the mix for them to do anything else.


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## CONTEMPT (Jan 2, 2011)

Katrina said:


> I always thought it wouldn't be all that bad to have a drop E eight-string coupled with a bass tuned to the normal EADG.
> 
> Does anyone see how that might not work out?



My current project is experimenting with this.


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## JamieB (Jan 10, 2011)

My band uses the bass to cut through mixes in certain points. 

We keep are bassist in check keeping the rythm until theres perfect oppurtunity to slap and pop and cut through the mix sounds insane. weve even started to experiment with tuning the bass higher.

We also do alot of wooten style percussive bass to fill in so the drums can do more inflections on cymbals sounds pretty cool hopefully have something up soon to show you guys if your intrested.


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## Xplora (Nov 29, 2011)

Thread resurrection: There is only one answer to this question, and you won't find it in metal.

Check out orchestration tutorials (I found the one at Northernsounds.com to be free and fantastic) to understand about the different tonality of various instruments. You can argue about the bass fitting in with the music - what about keys? Tuba? Contrabassoon? Double Bass? The sampler? The guitars/bass/drums idiom that most rock oriented guys deal with is simply ridiculous for trying to understand how to resolve the problem. The fact is, bass is a completely separate instrument, and if it wasn't for the mind numbing talentlessness of many bass players, we'd see it in its proper capacity. You don't have to be Les Claypool or Vic Wooten, but you should be doing more than just pumping on the E string an octave below. The only exceptions to this are bass/vocalists where they are at least doing something to keep busy. Check out a few good bass covers of Battery. They are walking all over the place during the chorus! The bass is filling the space created by the drums and guitar chords. Dudes from Necrophagist and Obscura are embracing this idea and it is good to hear. You MUST treat the bass as a new instrument, or just ignore it. I'm thinking about an Agile 830, and I'd tune way down to bass Drop D with a phat string, and probably run stereo output, one for a bass sim, another for guitar sim. I wouldn't intend on brutalising every track, but the possibility is there. I just don't need a second guitar or a bass if I'm slamming powerchords!

As a musician, you must open your mind to the past, and they've been dealing with these orchestration issues for CENTURIES. Much of the problem lies in the fact that most guitarist songwriters think that clever orchestration is harmonising a lead fill or making all instruments strike at the same time djent djent...


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## DropSplash (Nov 30, 2011)

So throwing my 2 cents into the pond...

I remember many moons ago that the reason I first started down tuning my six strings was so I could get fuller chords and recreate the fullness of playing with a bass player. And by not having access to a bass player, trying alternate tunings, etc. etc. to cover the spectrum of playing, I expanded my own abilities to create music with depth in the tonal sounds of what a one-man-band is capable of...However-
Even though down tuning, using Baritones, 7's, and 8's are great for my need to use depth in my playing and what I can do, I still crave for the resonant and tonal sound created by the frequency spectrum of a bass. And I think that it doesn't really matter how low (or high for that matter) a guitar or bass tunes, the development (of the instruments) should be in their respective ability to efficiently express the tonal frequency range that they are trying to express. And as well as the ability to write parts that use the two in equilibrium. So even though ERGuitarists can go lower and lower and lower and not really anyone wants a Bassist to go higher and higher and higher, it is most important to think about the freq. aspects of what they each offer. 
'Cuz hell even when I once down tuned my 24.75" Gibson SG and strung up a .70 gauge on the 6th string, I was still like, "...Well...This is kinda close, but I'd rather have a bass filling in these frequencies.." 
I think it's important to use the bass whether or not you're playing in/below their octave. Most of the time you won't get that full frequency-tonal-resonant-impactful sound. Some do, but it's also variant on the goal of the music. Even if I was playing a 32-string ERG that's a -52 octave F#, I'm probably still gonna want a super-bass to round around those frequencies and junk. Well. Unless my 32-string guitar has 62in scale...Then I guess I'm good.. 

But anyhooser, I think ERG metal tends to have a somewhat general split through it that either actually utilizes the sound spectrum of bass and guitar (and ERG) together, or tends to use bass and guitar together due to tradition.

Any thoughts?


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## Stephen Kale (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree with Xplora said. The bass has to be considered as a different instrument. There's no sense in keeping hitting the E string again and again.
The role of the bass should be seen as people are used to see the guitar. Why can't a bass playing some leads? 
As it has already been said, I don't think ERGs change the role of the bass much. If you cut the bass out, even when it's played in the same octave, the intensity of the mix falls down right away (most of the time).

Of course, it depends of the part of the song, the compromises and choices a band/artist makes.
I think ERG (especially when distorded) don't change the fact that bass have that low and round bottom end that you need in a general mix.
But everything is always a question of choices.


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## Xplora (Nov 30, 2011)

It's somewhat amusing that it is presumed that the bass guitar must constantly be present to make the music work. Check out Peter and the Wolf for some really interesting approaches to orchestration. Or chamber music in general. Yes, for that brutal assault you have to have the bass supporting the music, but we should take a more mature approach to the orchestration of the music. The dynamics of your music should call for different approaches for different feels. The bass SHOULD follow the guitar melody sometimes, it SHOULD go an octave below and pound away, and it should walk and tell its own story sometimes as well. Check out Nile's Unas Slayer of the Gods for a great example of the bass being used in a useful dynamic context. There are some apocalyptic heavy doom sections where it sounds like the bass is working extra hard, and others where it doesn't feature as much. Shem Sor (final track?) on Behemoth's Demigod album clearly shows the bass doing more than just following. Yes, these bass examples follow the melody an octave below, but they are clearly being featured to create that atmosphere of power. A guitar CANNOT do that by itself. Also check out Cannibal Corpse for intelligent use of the bass. Do you play 16ths when you don't have to? 

The bass always has capacity to dynamically control the band. I think a lot of metalheads forget that. We hear the guitar because we are used to focussing on it, and because the bass is poorly mixed and played. Can you imagine Iron Maiden with a crappy bass player? 

The treatment of the bass as a separate instrument creates a lot of tension for the guitars IMO, because most bands aren't clever enough to orchestrate a genuine second part. Check out Emperor's Prometheus album for a BRILLIANT demonstration of how to use different parts to really necessitate the 3 guitars in that band.


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## GTailly (Nov 30, 2011)

arsonist said:


> Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:
> 
> how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
> I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or.
> But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's fucking awesome!!



I totally agree with the point you mentionned.

Actually, my friend (who was guitarist with me in my last band) always had a passion for bass guitar but kind of had the same point of view on learning it as you stated. During the last few months of the band's existence, we had both moved to 8 string guitars to achieve a type of sound we were looking for. Surprinsingly, the ability to produce ideas he had wanted to write on bass for years were now possible to kind of imitate on the 8 string and he really felt in love.

Few weeks later, band was dead and we were talking about forming a new one. This is when he made his *coming out* and announced me that he truely felt the passion to become our full-time bass player.

The new project has now been living for the last three months and we are all in love with his playing style and the basslines he writes for my riffs.

Thanks to 8 string guuitars. 

By the way, since that, I sold my 8 string and bought a carvin DC727. 7 Strings and 5 string bass, best of both worlds speaking for myself.


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## animalwithin (Nov 30, 2011)

luca, whats the guitar in your avatar?


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## luca9583 (Dec 6, 2011)

animalwithin said:


> luca, whats the guitar in your avatar?



Do you mean my old avatar with the brown headstock and 3 bass tuners (that was a Novax Charlie Hunter 8 string i sold recently), or the sexy sketch in my album that will become my custom guitar?!!!

Anyway, i started this thread a while ago because i was getting really annoyed with most metal mixes that used ERGs, in that the bass was just completely void of any bass frequencies. It's difficult though, because if you want the guitars to sound bigger, then you need to sacrifice the bottom end somewhere, which in turn is why the kick drum in metal always has that clicky beater sound..so it doesn't fight with the guitars


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## JazzandMetal (Dec 20, 2011)

luca9583 said:


> Do you mean my old avatar with the brown headstock and 3 bass tuners (that was a Novax Charlie Hunter 8 string i sold recently), or the sexy sketch in my album that will become my custom guitar?!!!
> 
> Anyway, i started this thread a while ago because i was getting really annoyed with most metal mixes that used ERGs, in that the bass was just completely void of any bass frequencies. It's difficult though, because if you want the guitars to sound bigger, then you need to sacrifice the bottom end somewhere, which in turn is why the kick drum in metal always has that clicky beater sound..so it doesn't fight with the guitars



This is a great thread you started. i did a science project a while back on the loudness war and how modern music was missing almost all of its dynamics. Maybe if the overall mix was a little quieter the drums could breathe a little.

Anyway, on James Labrie's solo album Static impulse has the awesome Marco Sfogli on a seven string and the guitar tone is really thick and low, but the bass is there and accents a bunch of things. It does these cool fills and mini solos, and really adds to the music. The bass definitely adds a ton to good music. 

Opeth is a great example of awesome production, and they use the bass really well. Coming back to shat I said about the drums, the kick is still like a patterpatterpatter, but it is a little thicker than normal metal bands because of the space they give the instruments.


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## Thaeon (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't think the guitar will ever replace the bass. The difference in the timbre is too different. 

In my current project there isn't a bass player. But we a synth player doing things in that frequency range. Since I'm doing the majority of the production and I'm looking for a bit more of a full range detuned guitar sound it works. Especially the way I want to mix it. I'm going to mix in 5.1, but not as a surround mix. More like speaker groupings. The synths will share a stereo spectrum and the guitars a separate stereo spectrum with drums and backing vocals being the only true surround instruments. Lead vox, solos, snare and kick in the Center channel to focus the mix, and a low pass on the guitars and synths to filter the low end to the sub channel.

Also, listen to some NIN. There are some great songs with great mixes that don't have any bass in them.


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## Explorer (Dec 24, 2011)

It's been raised more than once, but I want to mention it again.

In a lot of music styles, there's the idea of "comping." A lot of people think that means "accompanying," but it actually came from "complementing."

Many musical styles have instruments which overlap in range. The better musicians know how to make space for each other.

I'm not sure if the idea is being advanced that most ERG players in metal are just not capable or talented enough, or just lack the musicality, to be able to leave space in their music.


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## Mordacain (Dec 24, 2011)

Explorer said:


> It's been raised more than once, but I want to mention it again.
> 
> In a lot of music styles, there's the idea of "comping." A lot of people think that means "accompanying," but it actually came from "complementing."
> 
> ...



 I think there is a pervading idea in modern metal that the bass & guitar need to be in lockstep playing the same notes, but in different octaves to give a powerful, full sound. Personally, it seems like a ridiculous notion to me but I'm sure some people like the effect.

I don't really see ERG affecting the position of bass in a band. Musicians make holes for eachother, it gives the piece room to breath and allows the more casual listener to hear what everyone is doing and not just a wall of sound in overlapping frequencies.


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## Jimmyjam (Dec 26, 2011)

The way i see it for the most part is , my band has songs that use 7 and 8 strings in the low dbl drop g tunign out other guitarist uses he uses the 7,s.For me 8,s its tuned normal. The way i make the bass cut threw is for each guitar track i run one track thorugh a low pass filiter and one with a hi pass filter then pan them hard left and right.
For the bass i noticed extreme amount of mud when tuning the bass down past a C so i leave it in c and you move stuff around a few frets and your good. After that i use to EQ to crave the freq i want the bass in so that does not contend with the bass drum. The results of this sound when i get mixing it is very clear and not muddy.


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## Djentleguy (Jan 3, 2012)

MISTAKE, PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE


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## MF_Kitten (Jan 21, 2012)

I was asked to post here. I just did some clips with a baritone guitar tuned all the way down to drop D, an octave below a regular guitar. On request, i did a clip without the bass track in it, so you guys could hear the difference, and so you can tell how much the bass is doing in there. The bass was originally in unison with the guitars, but then i made a clip where i added the bass back in, but transposed it down an octave. Just an interesting experiment!

normal, with unison bass: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/The Boy Who Loved His Baritone.mp3

same, but without the bass (only pressing "mute" on the bass track):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/super low, no bass.mp3

normal, but with the bass transposed down an octave to super-low D:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/super low, HYPERBASS.mp3

for ridiculously low tunings, i find it sounds more focused with unison bass. around f# it starts getting harder to work it, and at low E it reaches it's limit. unless you are doing something cleaner or slower.


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## ZEBOV (Jan 21, 2012)

LordIronSpatula said:


> Capo.



I've used a capo on my bass since I started playing. I started on a 5 string, learned that the lowest tuning I would be playing was ADGCF, tuned to that, and used a capo for higher tunings.


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## anthonyferguson (Jan 21, 2012)

I think using ridiculous sub frequencies sparingly is an awesome idea. Why restrict bass playing to only unison octave and sub octave? 
Just like how when an organist is playing loud-ass massive chords he'll have the stops that make the lowest and the highest frequencies out at once to create that massive band that makes chords sound huge. 
For perspective, the lowest frequency on an organ (provided it's equipped) is about 16.4 Hz, and a pipe has to be 32ft in length to create that note. That's a bottom C. And the highest common frequency found is about C8, ~4186hz. It's not necessarily about whether you can actually hear the note as such I guess, but the effect it has on the feel.


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## MF_Kitten (Jan 21, 2012)

Actually, i have thought about just that. Have the 4 first strings of the bass tuned to the unison tunings of the lowest strings, and then have two lower strings that are the same as the two lowest strings, but an octave lower. That way you can call in the big guns when needed! I do this with the low A for when i want to do heavy stuff on the A string of the baritone and upward.


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2012)

After The Burial goes down to a low F and Lee tunes down an octave below the guitars with a .165, I believe.


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## MF_Kitten (Jan 22, 2012)

yup, on a 35" scale Ibanez BTB bass. works really well, and it sounds awesome. however, playing those low notes without "reinforcing" them with the guitars the octave above doesn't work as well. The super low notes are made clear because of the octave interval being present, and their interaction together makes you hear what it is. 

the same is true of the third clip i posted up there. the super low D note makes sense only when the guitar is doubling it an octave higher. You hear that it's got an octave interval, and so you can hear what it's doing. But if that low note was played by the bass alone, you wouldn't be able to tell what the hell it was.


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## Ryan Duke (Jan 24, 2012)

ZEBOV said:


> I've used a capo on my bass since I started playing. I started on a 5 string, learned that the lowest tuning I would be playing was ADGCF, tuned to that, and used a capo for higher tunings.



Interesting, never thought of that, but I also don't play bass much.


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## robotsatemygma (Jan 25, 2012)

Glad this thread was resurrected. Very good read and interesting statements/theories. 

With the expansion of the guitar going into lower frequencies, I really think your typical metal bassist, has to step up his game and approach writing in a different manner. Come on, lets face it, for metal and most rock, they have an easy job with just reproducing root notes and sometimes a higher index melodic chording segment. Kinda lame. 

When I say step up, I mean really learn their instrument and it's nuances and eccentricities. Almost in a "taking a solo" manner, much like some jazz and blues bassists, but in a tasteful manner that doesn't take away but only adds too the song, playing in the pocket, as they call it. Create lines rather then riffs.

That being said, I think a great bassist would be a person who played drums and learned some shred guitar.


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## Xplora (Jan 26, 2012)

anthonyferguson said:


> I think using ridiculous sub frequencies sparingly is an awesome idea. Why restrict bass playing to only unison octave and sub octave? .... It's not necessarily about whether you can actually hear the note as such I guess, but the effect it has on the feel.



This is exactly what I'm talking about in my first post in this thread. A lot of it comes down to the fact that bass "typically" doesn't have a character of its own - but interestingly, ALL the great bass guitar sounds are quite different to the guitars and it is clear that the bass is, or isn't, playing. Rex from Pantera, Opeth, Alex from Cannibal Corpse, all have this woody, visceral tone that stands apart from the guitars. When you listen to Alex talk about the production and writing on their albums it is clear that he doesn't feel a need to prove anything on bass, he just wants to write a good song and creating good parts for bass is part of that. Interestingly, all three bands with great bass tone also don't follow the guitars, they have their own parts. I guess if you approach songwriting thinking that guitar, snare and kick are the main rhythm instruments you will always be castrated. When you listen to a lot of this djenty business it is pretty clear that bass isn't part of the vision.

I am definitely getting more and more interested in getting an 8 string tuned down to Bass D, to have an instrument that has no connection to guitar or bass anymore. Like my version of the Chapman Stick... because you have to have a more mature approach to orchestration than just guitar snare kick, if you want to stand out.

And let's not beat around the bush either - bands playing riffs in unison palm muted sounds absolutely awesome. I LOVE that.... but it can't be your only trick in the bag, and you need good ideas beyond 100% power.


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## JazzandMetal (Jan 27, 2012)

Nice, Explora. Opeth definitely has the awesome production that makes every instrument heard. You could argue that that their sound sacrifices power for clarity, but when you can hear every instrument as well as that, it doesn't really matter. The super Djenty Tesseract stuff is fun for a few minutes, but then gets tiring.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 27, 2012)

Regardless of the frequencies produced don't the bass and guitar serve difference purposes in the band? And isn't their overall timbre different anyway?

I've seen Marcus Miller, Victor Wooten and Stanley Clark all play basses at the same time and it sounded like they were all playing completely different instruments bc of the roles they took on during said jam.

Likewise, the guitar and bass have kind of always had different roles. It just so happens more and more modern guitars can produce notes within the same frequency range as the bass.


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## 27duuude (Jan 31, 2012)

In the future I see many bands that don't understand that there are no fundamentals in a distorded guitar and just simply ignore the bass and wondering why they have a shitty mix. The revolution of the ERG has just broken the stereotype of the bass having to be one octave lower and instead is understood as the instrument that plays the fundamentals and covers the lower frequencys that guitars can't reach.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 31, 2012)

But the point is that guitars CAN reach these frequencies... I might be crazy but isn't the C# on a 9 string just a step higher than he low B on a 5 string bass?


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## velvetkevorkian (Jan 31, 2012)

Right, but they don't sound like a bass at the same pitch. If all else was equal they'd sound the same but it never is.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 31, 2012)

Which is why the roles shouldn't change...


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## Winspear (Jan 31, 2012)

^ They do reach the frequency, just the fundamental isn't nearly as loud. Thicker strings on any given scale length (i.e. tension - the tension of bass strings is twice as much as guitar strings typically) lose higher harmonics, which is why basses sound a lot more of the fundamental. 

So yes, the roles should not change.


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## velvetkevorkian (Jan 31, 2012)

There we go then. That's this thread sorted. 
Next up- world peace.


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## DropSplash (Feb 1, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> normal, but with the bass transposed down an octave to super-low D:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/super low, HYPERBASS.mp3



Hyperbass is fucking boss.

The future of music: An octave lower than music.


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 1, 2012)

penny1 said:


> Hyperbass is fucking boss.
> 
> The future of music: An octave lower than music.



the problem with it is that it's hard to discern WTF you're even hearing if it goes too fast. If i record something slower, it'll sound fucking ridiculous, in a good way. I think tuning it in unison works better for tunings like these. drop D is pretty fucking low already. and i might go to C#.


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 2, 2012)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/Look Away For A While.mp3

More unison bass "evidence", this time in drop Db.


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## Winspear (Feb 2, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/Look Away For A While.mp3
> 
> More unison bass "evidence", this time in drop Db.



That was fucking awesome...Intense progression.


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## JazzandMetal (Feb 3, 2012)

Awesome songs, Kitten. 

Everybody need to check out this video immediately: 






Oh. My. Gosh. 

I think that pretty much sums up what a bass is capable of in metal.


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## Xplora (Feb 4, 2012)

Listened to the hyperbass MP3s... really liked it. It really is just a synth pad at those frequencies, but that's good. It creates a feel in those riffs that you wouldn't get with just a guitar.

The key is, where do you go from there? You've found a spanner in the toolbox, and it's great from undoing nuts and tightening them up again, and you could use it as a hammer in some jobs, a stirring spoon in the kitchen, but it's no good at cutting wood or painting fingernails. I think that's where you need to think through what feel you need, what is the message you are trying to convey.

I personally would prefer a more grindy guitar sound to carry the heavy tone more. You'd get the psychological effect using a mahogany guitar detuned and picked hard with EMG 81s, because you are trying to get a rich organic hugeness across, NOT a super low tone.

But - it's your piece and while I would choose another tool for the job, who cares what I think? You've taken the spanner and worked great things with it. And those choices are what is necessary to say "hey, what are we going to use this bass for?". I love Contrabass strings in the lowest registers, because they have this thick woody rumble, the tuba and bassoon don't have that tone. Bass guitar is capable of some nice tones too that complement the guitar... but do they complement a 9 string?


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## 27duuude (Feb 5, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ They do reach the frequency, just the fundamental isn't nearly as loud. Thicker strings on any given scale length (i.e. tension - the tension of bass strings is twice as much as guitar strings typically) lose higher harmonics, which is why basses sound a lot more of the fundamental.
> 
> So yes, the roles should not change.



But think about how many ERG players, in metal, don't cut everything below 100Hz. If they didn't then they would get a muddy tone or have to crank the bass to the point where the fundamental is apparent enough to sound like a bass (e.g. Nothing; Meshuggah). The bass comes in and covers the fundamentals for the guitar when it isn't covering those frequencys.


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## Brohoodofsteel75 (Feb 5, 2012)

My bassist is in drop E on a four string.... He handles! It fits in the mix well too.


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## LordCashew (Feb 13, 2012)

ZEBOV said:


> I've used a capo on my bass since I started playing. I started on a 5 string, learned that the lowest tuning I would be playing was ADGCF, tuned to that, and used a capo for higher tunings.



I mostly use capo (or better yet partial capo) to transpose natural harmonics into a useful key.


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## Continuum (Apr 5, 2012)

#1 reason you need a bass player... You can't slap an 8-string


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## JamesM (Apr 5, 2012)

^Disagree.


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## HellMinor (Apr 5, 2012)

Continuum said:


> #1 reason you need a bass player... You can't slap an 8-string



Nope, you can:


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## Danukenator (Apr 5, 2012)

Plus it's worth noting people like Regi Wooten have been slappin' on a six string for many years.


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## fire engine (Dec 20, 2012)

I live in an isolated area where it's pretty hard to find people. I play a seven string in Drop A through a regular 2x12 guitar cab and then add in a bass extension cab. Our other guitar player does so in Drop D through a regular half-stack. I think our sound is pretty full, especially because we make it a point to play separate guitar lines much of the time. Some purists might not like it, but that's not a big worry for me. Usually when we play out, I set out the bass cab and the guitar amp and both are mic'd by the sound guy before i even have to explain that both are for my guitar.

But I did play a bassline that was mostly inaudible on our album.


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## UV7BK4LIFE (Dec 21, 2012)

My band can't find a bass player, so we tuned 6 and 7 string guitars to standard B tuning. I have an 8 string now tuned to F# and I hope the other guitarist will do the same.

We're even getting comfortable with not having a bass player and no longer feel the need for it. We consider getting a third guitarist with a 7 or 8 string baritone. After gigs we get lots of compliments about our full yet clear sound. Sometimes people only find out we don't have a bass player because we tell them, lol.

Where we rehearse, we heard about a bass player leaving his band because both guitarists showed up with 8 string guitars without first discussing it, surprise !


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## Thaeon (Dec 21, 2012)

LordIronSpatula said:


> No way. In fact there's some pretty obviously audible bass in Stengah, especially in the original mix. You can really hear it starting around :48 when the guitars are semi-muted and the bass sustains.
> 
> I remember hearing something about one of the guitarists also playing bass at some point. Maybe that's what happened if they fired their bassist before recording.



Marten.

But on most of their demo stuff that they send around to each other, they have played most of the instruments themselves. Or programmed the drums. Cause lets face it... Tomas is a god.


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## jeleopard (Dec 21, 2012)

I play bass in standard (deviating only maybe a half step down). I finding tuning a bass to be cheating. Dick Lövgren does this. He tunes half step down whine Frederik and Martin are in F.

I even have a friend who totally denounces anything other than standard. He transposes anything; he's a fantastic musician.


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## JazzandMetal (Dec 28, 2012)

jeleopard said:


> I play bass in standard (deviating only maybe a half step down). I finding tuning a bass to be cheating. Dick Lövgren does this. He tunes half step down whine Frederik and Martin are in F.
> 
> I even have a friend who totally denounces anything other than standard. He transposes anything; he's a fantastic musician.



Nothing in music is cheating, IMO. If you make things fake you will pay the price of it not sounding good or not being able to play it live, both of which tend to decrease a band's popularity. 

Did anyone see Dick Lovgren and Tomas Haake jam? It is on Youtube. Meshuggah definitely needs their bass player. He really carries their low groove.


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## jimwratt (Dec 29, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> There's a lot of room for creativity, too. Anyone remember Ned's Atomic Dustbin? Not metal, but they had two bass players - one that held down the low end, and one that played higher up doing the melody. Their guitarist does more rhythmic, sometimes ska type stuff.
> And then there's Primus, where the bass takes up room for the guitar because Claypool is a maniac on his instrument.
> So IMO we should be experimenting with alternatives to the bass playing the root of the guitar one octave lower.





I'll agree with that and go a bit further. I think we will really see what 8 strings can mean in a band when more non-metal guys pick them up. Traditionally, metal has not been the bass's domain. I would imagine that in something like R&B, there's a lot more bass territory to cover so an 8 string guitar could be a game changer. In metal, it seems to just add to the guitar's unopposed dominance.


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## knuckle_head (Dec 29, 2012)

Depending on your bassist s/he can still be an octave below you - it's possible to have a bass below that as well.

This isn't the end - we're still in process . . . .


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