# Alternate picking AGGRAVATION



## guitarplayerone (Oct 25, 2007)

So ive been working on Tech Difficulties with my buddy from guitar ensemble, and also been working on deals I have with a bunch of people where they teach me jazz music theory (which I cant access in my program till next semester) in exchange for alternate picking help.

and me and my friend mike (whos doing tech difficulties with me) have come to a conclusion... paul gilbert, rusty cooley, MAB,
DONT WANT PEOPLE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY FAST

wtf? let me explain.

ive watched EVERY SINGLE paul gilbert and rusty cooley video. Ive watched Speed Lives by MAB, ive seen yngwies young guitar stuff, richie kotzen's rock licks, petrucci's Rock Discipline, and not ONCE do they teach someone how to alternate pick. EVER.

Im talking to people about the mechanics of the arm+wrist technique and explaining to them how to alternate pick and they look at me like im a fucking alien. and they have a lot of these vids, and still have no idea what the hell im talking about them... I tell them to reexamine the videos and then they see what petrucci, or paul gilbert, or cooley or whoever, were doing with their arms and wrists (to varying degrees of complete accuraccy).

only when I started watching slow-mo footage fromCracking the Code: The Secrets of Shred Guitar that I finally started realizing the mechanics of all this...

This documentary isnt even out yet, and MAB and Cooley are in it (so maybe they do want you to learn). But its fucked up, I had to go down blind alleyways maybe four times and practice those for a few months until i realized what was wrong and further streamlined my technique

This leads me to conclude that these guys didnt want people to learn. If i can show a jazz dude how to alternate pick in ten minutes and he comes back the next day playing ten times cleaner and twice as fast, then they should too...

they never discuss it, and the only way you can really use these documentaries is if you already are an alternate picker (and a pretty good one at that). this is horrible IMHO because it forms a huge gap (which you probably notice) between technical and nontechnical guitarists.

There are no in-betweens because there cant be, you have to go down a long way down that road to get anywhere, because these assholes dont explain anything.

I love PG and Petrucci and MAB and Cooley to death, but their shit stinks and I wanted to rant about it.


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## ShawnFjellstad (Oct 25, 2007)

interesting. i never thought about that.
i was always pretty good (not great, but good enough for my needs) at alternate picking, so i liked the gilbert and petrucci dvds.


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## telecaster90 (Oct 25, 2007)

What's this arm + wrist thing you're talking about? A little insight would be awesome


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## Alex-D33 (Oct 25, 2007)

Very intersting subject you opened up Bro ! i've seen little tid-bits of cracking the code & I would like know more on it .. pleas shed more light \m/


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 25, 2007)

its a very specific way that you are supposed to pick... alas I have no camera otherwise I would post a very specific answer, its almost impossible to do without one...

the best approximation:
check out the Cracking the Code video.. and pay attention to how they minimize motion. Thats very important. The specific motion is you use your arm to move from string to string so as to keep your hand (which is picking only from the wrist if youre anyone besides MAB) able to pick from the wrist and hit each note the same exact way. This involves very minute pick angle adjustments to make the pick 'flatter' on upstrokes.

just go to the site in the vid. its Troy Grady's documentary, not mine


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## telecaster90 (Oct 25, 2007)

Is it on youtube? I tried that link and I'm missing something on quicktime to where I could only listen to the audio, there wasn't any video.


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 25, 2007)

telecaster90 said:


> Is it on youtube? I tried that link and I'm missing something on quicktime to where I could only listen to the audio, there wasn't any video.



Heres the site itself...

you should get quicktime alternative. you can play quicktime .mov in windows media player (very cool as I have media center, and not playing something in windows media player means I cant get to it with my remote)

it kicks ass, and works for this file.


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## Alex-D33 (Oct 25, 2007)

Fawk ya!!! I just went to the Cracking the code web site its full of good info \m/ + 1 . I like the part when he says that playing with a metronom isn't always the best way for everybody .


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## Metal Ken (Oct 25, 2007)

You make it sound like Rusty & PG are like "mwhahaha! We'll make videos that dont teach them anything, and then they'll wallow in mediocrity and allow us to be the stars!!! HOOOO!" 



I just think it was an aspect that they didnt think they needed to address, or maybe havent thought about.


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 25, 2007)

Alex-D33 said:


> Fawk ya!!! I just went to the Cracking the code web site its full of good info \m/ + 1 . I like the part when he says that playing with a metronom isn't always the best way for everybody .



honestly, I used to be enslaved by metronomes.

they are quite useless, unless to test accuracy at a certain speed.

ever since I stopped using them to try to go fast (which is counterproductive)
and practiced slow and hyperclean to make sure I pick most economically and with least noise and proper technique, ive gotten sooo much faster and cleaner...



Metal Ken said:


> I just think it was an aspect that they didnt think they needed to address, or maybe havent thought about.



Idk man, i was talking to a student taking lessons from Rusty Cooley (shredder girl I met through youtube) and from what she said, he hasnt even tried to fix her DownupDowndownupdowndownup picking thing, which is horrible (and the way that I used to pick and everyone else who hasnt thought about picking plays)

This is after a bunch of $$ in lessons, and a two month long waitlist...

im sure PG and Rusty Cooley are good guys. Cooley is even in this documentary. But for example, Rusty Cooley's Basic Training, his supposed 'intro to alternate picking' video, shows some stuff yeah.
even there he didnt go into the technique (he mentioned it about as much as I did in my initial post)
---------------------------
Just to clarify, because im not sure people understand this all across the board due to people misusing the name...
Alternate picking, real alternate picking is to pick down up down up etc...
ALWAYS. This means if youre playing a scale 3 notes per string starting on a low E then when you get to your A string, your first pickstroke will be an UPstroke, then on your D string, it will be a down, etc
UDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUDUD, etc, ad infinitum

anyway, ive noticed most people pick the opposite way, and some people really hate alternate picking, but this is how the pros pick.

forget joe stump, when he tries to alternate pick, he plays accents every three notes, essentially turning them into triplets (because he picks DUDDUDDUDDU, leading to some sort of attack change every fourth note, giving a 6/8 feel. This is great for 6/8 or other compound time sigs, but sounds like shit in common time and a good player should be able to do both)

genuine alternate picking sounds like, as MAB so eloquently put it, 'a machine gun', and is infinitely cleaner.

(btw for the naysayers, I used to disagree with alternate picking myself. I didnt understand it, etc. if you dont agree with me on whatever TRY IT. and you will get better and cleaner)


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## Metal Ken (Oct 25, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> Idk man, i was talking to a student taking lessons from Rusty Cooley (shredder girl I met through youtube) and from what she said, he hasnt even tried to fix her DownupDowndownupdowndownup picking thing, which is horrible (and the way that I used to pick and everyone else who hasnt thought about picking plays)



Well, is she improving?


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 25, 2007)

she said she is, but in her vids she is sloppy because of her unfocused picking.
i would just expect someone like cooley to immediately zoom in on that, because she really knows a lot of scale shapes cold... enough to get to work on picking imho

im not talking shit about cooley, I just dont understand why nobody shows people this stuff. the way I started learning how to solo is an accomplished shredder (was 18 at the time, i was 12, he was my roomie in millitary school) showed me how to begin soloing.

there needs to be free exchange of info on this stuff- and idk why, but ive done the research (till I finally got lucky and figured it out myself) and I couldnt find this info ANYWHERE


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm rather sure that's because the skillset of the virtuoso performer and virtuoso pedagogue don't necessarily match up. Troy Grady nailed it when he said any conservatory worth its salt can train a decently talented and dedicated player to nail say, one of Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, but the same can't be said for guitar instructors. It's a rather new thing, and has simply not been approached rigorously and scientifically like violin and piano (or any classical instrument) technique has been.


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## lordofthesewers (Oct 26, 2007)

when i was taking lessons from Steve Smyth one of the first things he did was point out my shit alternate picking and sweep picking techniques. I was doing down up down down up down etc, now i'm not. He would like tell me over and over i was screwing up, now i kinda hear him say down up down up when i practice  He might not be the greatest alt picker out there, but definately a good teacher. I heard similar stories from some of Chris Broderick's students.
I agree with guitar player one, great shredder doesn't always equal great teacher. Such an example i heard is Jeff Loomis. Not trying to talk shit about him, that is what i have heard


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## Gilbucci (Oct 26, 2007)

Broderick would totally be straight forward about technique. If I was fucking up, he'd tell me straight up, not sugar coat it at all. That's the kind of teacher someone should look for.


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## canuck brian (Oct 26, 2007)

K - from what i understand here, some people are doing the "economy" picking technique that I keep reading about and have ignored for years. 

I just focus on the dududududududududud patterns working to a metronome. If you can't do it really fast, back it off and start slower. I can't play legato worth a shit, so alternate picking every single note I play is how I get by.


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## Metal Ken (Oct 26, 2007)

My point wasnt that rusty was a good teacher or not, my point was that he's not knowingly trying to prevent people from being faster like was (most likely jokingly) stated in the first post.


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 26, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> forget joe stump, when he tries to alternate pick, he plays accents every three notes, essentially turning them into triplets (because he picks DUDDUDDUDDU, leading to some sort of attack change every fourth note, giving a 6/8 feel. This is great for 6/8 or other compound time sigs, but sounds like shit in common time and a good player should be able to do both)



To quote Petrucci on this one, you should be able to accent either a downstroke or upstroke. In that case I don't see why economy picking is a problem. He's picking DUDDUDDUDDU (guessing this is a two note per string pattern), so his accents should go DuddUdduD etc.


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 26, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> To quote Petrucci on this one, you should be able to accent either a downstroke or upstroke. In that case I don't see why economy picking is a problem. He's picking DUDDUDDUDDU (guessing this is a two note per string pattern), so his accents should go DuddUdduD etc.



Petrucci said this in the context of alternate picking. 
When you are economy picking (even joe stump) has accents that occur on every fourth note, giving a triplet, 6/8, whatever you want to call it, feel. if you are accenting every three notes already and you want to accent the fourth, you now have two accents.
If you are alternate picking, petrucci applies because every pickstroke is mechanically the same. Every pickstroke is NOT mechanically the same with economy picking, namely the string change. It is a smaller distance to go, and is thus deaccented because the string isnt hit hard enough or in the same way.

If you were alternate picking, ever string is hit the same strength and speed (if you arent deliberately accenting)

sure you can try to deaccent the string change, but there is always a telltale auditory thing with that, its just not as clean and mechanical. (watch that joe stump video slowed)

my buddy, who ive been showing alternate picking, and is completely new to it, described it as this
 
(adlib) 'when you catch that string on the upstroke and go back to down, you get this 'boost' of speed'

absolutely right... and if you are picking a scale and want to accent the fourth note, for ease, say C major 3nps wherever you want on the fretboard (wherever there is an F on the high string, so i guess the limit would be in 13th pos on the B and E strings) this is how you would altpick it. or at least how I would do it.

say you want to go up the scale and accent like this C D E F *G*
you would pick like this (or complete opposite way *)D U D U D
**-its alt picking, so either way is good
with a string change before the F
you sort of prepare for the accent after the upstroke so when you return, you hit that note harder (since you are moving a little extra distance from the string after your up, you have more distance to go on the down).

this is one way to accent

another way is to flatten the pick angle on that note.

and a third, is just to hit it a little harder, or use your fingertips or whatever

but the point is if every pickstroke isnt the same, you cant really 'accent' because there are already innate accents present


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 26, 2007)

Alt picked notes aren't mechanically the same either. You can generally tell the difference between starting on an upstroke or a downstroke. In economy picking, some pick strokes are shorter, but with alternate picking, you're artificially making some pick strokes longer with a change in direction, and those are going to have a natural accent.


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## Unknown Doodl3.2 (Oct 27, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> its a very specific way that you are supposed to pick... alas I have no camera otherwise I would post a very specific answer, its almost impossible to do without one...
> 
> the best approximation:
> check out the Cracking the Code video.. and pay attention to how they minimize motion. Thats very important. The specific motion is you use your arm to move from string to string so as to keep your hand (which is picking only from the wrist if youre anyone besides MAB) able to pick from the wrist and hit each note the same exact way. This involves very minute pick angle adjustments to make the pick 'flatter' on upstrokes.
> ...



I've been playing 4 years and have been doing that for a good year now. Maybe it's due to lack of consistent practice, but I haven't gone up enough to my liking (maybe 20-25bpm). I can play short bursts (3-4 note gallops) at extreme speeds but as soon as I try to play as acurately as paul gilbert I get slowed down to the 155-165BPM range. Which is extremely frustrating! Because I know I'm doing something wrong, I can't put my finger on it. I can sweep ultra clean like a madman and do some seriously sick legato lines but my Alternate picking is killing me.

I think I will try your "no metronome" method...


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 27, 2007)

I forgot to add that Cooley picks from the elbow.


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 28, 2007)

Unknown Doodl3.2 said:


> Because I know I'm doing something wrong, I can't put my finger on it. I think I will try your "no metronome" method...


honestly dude, metronomes are really important, but I got stuck at 165 because I was trying to go faster and faster, and when there is something fundamental limiting you, you might go a little faster by getting more warmed up, but this isnt usually a permanent improvement.

seriously, check your picking out on clean at like 20 bpm and see what it looks like... if youre anything like I was youll have string noise, not all notes will be hit exactly the same, and you wont be using the most ecomonical motions possible. you will notice large amounts of shit altogether youll need to fix.
fix it, work on it ultraslow for a month, and im sure you will get cleaner and faster



Jongpil Yun said:


> I forgot to add that Cooley picks from the elbow.



he does a combination of both, buddy, watch his videos. you can see it. He talks about his picking being a combination of both as well.
Specifically in Basic Training, btw. Also, he mostly wrist picks, just uses his arm for boosts of pressure.


Jongpil Yun said:


> Alt picked notes aren't mechanically the same either. You can generally tell the difference between starting on an upstroke or a downstroke. In economy picking, some pick strokes are shorter, but with alternate picking, you're artificially making some pick strokes longer with a change in direction, and those are going to have a natural accent.



not if you are alternate picking correcly. first of all, all your pickstrokes, down and up, should sound exactly the same. if they dont, then you need to fundamentally overhaul your technique. second of all, the difference is that with alternate picking, you deliberately accent notes by changing your attack, and with economy picking, that is an unintentional byproduct of the technique (which is usually undesired)


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 28, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> he does a combination of both, buddy, watch his videos. you can see it. He talks about his picking being a combination of both as well.
> Specifically in Basic Training, btw. Also, he mostly wrist picks, just uses his arm for boosts of pressure.



For all of his fastest scalar picked licks that I've seen, it seems to be damn near all from the elbow.



> not if you are alternate picking correcly. first of all, all your pickstrokes, down and up, should sound exactly the same. if they dont, then you need to fundamentally overhaul your technique. second of all, the difference is that with alternate picking, you deliberately accent notes by changing your attack, and with economy picking, that is an unintentional byproduct of the technique (which is usually undesired)



Honestly, what's to stop me from saying then, if you're economy picking correctly all your pickstrokes should sound the same, and if they don't, you need to fundamentally overhaul your technique?


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 28, 2007)

because youre pickstrokes arent all the same if you're economy picking, and they are all the same if you are alternate picking.

ive seen yngwie live. his picking hand doesnt seem to move. it is, he is just very economical in his motions. same goes for rusty cooley, he is moving his wrist, its just hard to see because of how economically hes doing it. he is moving his elbow too, and of course that is easier to see. however to pick that fast with the elbow, it wont seem like you are moving your elbow as much as he moves his (MAB). he is using it for a small additional amount of speed and force, but mostly to move his hand up and down to change strings.


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## distressed_romeo (Oct 28, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Honestly, what's to stop me from saying then, if you're economy picking correctly all your pickstrokes should sound the same, and if they don't, you need to fundamentally overhaul your technique?



 This is a case of one technique reinforcing the other. If you've developed your alternate picking so your up and down strokes sound virtually identical, then that should rub off on your economy picking technique, helping you avoid accenting notes based on the fingering rather than musical intent.

This is the reason I practice both techniques, and kinda think of them as being facets of the same approach. I've found that being able to go back and forth between both without radically overhauling my picking style's really helped with phrasing and control. Honestly, most people I've seen who've dismissed economy picking outright just haven't taken the time to develop it in the same way they have their alternate picking; they try it for half an hour and throw it out if they don't get instant results.


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## Metal Ken (Oct 28, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> not if you are alternate picking correcly. first of all, all your pickstrokes, down and up, should sound exactly the same



If this were the case, there'd be no point to straight downpicking in metal rhythm guitar. downstrokes and upstrokes sound inherently different.


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 28, 2007)

for rythm yes. and I do practice economy picking for triplet feels again.
and most of my rythm guitar is a combination of gallops, straight downpicking and alt picking runs.

but the fundamental nature of picking i think is different for rythm and leads

notice that when you do downdowndowndown thrash-type picking, you are doing it in a way that is fundamentally different than if you were alternate picking and just omitting the downstroke


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## Unknown Doodl3.2 (Oct 28, 2007)

At what point do you know its time to crank the metronome faster?

I've been examining my picking hand for the last hour. I even recorded a few vids of me doing slow picking then fast. Although it's not uber economic, it doesn't move THAT much. The only thing that looks really awkward is how my arm and wrist seem to move as a wave, almost as if while one goes up the other goes down to counteract their motion and keep their position.

Either my technique is hopelessly fucked up or I'm just not practicing enough. Hopefully its the latter but either way, I'm getting fucking frustrated and discouraged...

EDIT: I may have found something. The angle my hand takes when it picks looks a bit odd. My knuckles extend outward from the front of the guitar therefore my pick is pointing slightly downwards. By the time I'm on the low E string the wrist is almost resting on the top of the Pickguard while my thumb picks the string. This could explain why I feel slower or faster on certain strings.

If I tilt my wrist slightly to make my pick point slightly upwards instead my arm and the top of my hand all the way to my knuckles for a straight line. Is it possible that I may be on to something or is it this just paranoia and me being desperate to find something that works?


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## Cancer (Oct 28, 2007)

When I first read your original post I was like "WTF is he talking about, of course they teach the underlining mechanics"....

Then after reviewing the tapes I have I realized that you are right, they don't. (Actually Gilbert does on GOOMY, but what is that....like his 6th video????).

But Grady's "Cracking the Code" actually talks about that, he discovered that the guys who play fast really don't understand the mechanics, they just found something that works for their body and built on it. I believe, and Grady alludes to this, that this was the inspiration for Cracking the Code in the first place. Even Tuck Andress (who gave us a very informative list of picking techniques) wrote "_*Particularly with my guitar style, I realize that it is unusual, largely undocumented and very difficult to figure out from listening or even watching because of its complexity and all the textural details. I've had a lot of trouble figuring my own playing out after the fact myself, such as for the Hot Licks video, so I sympathize. A lot of people have generously helped me along the way, so it only makes sense to pass it along.*_".

If Andress, after all of the above, still has trouble deciphering his own playing, it deosn't surprise me that the Gilbert's ,Cooley's, and Stump's of the world have issues as well, which may very well be why they don't talk about it in their videos much.


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## distressed_romeo (Oct 28, 2007)

I think the main problem is that electric guitar technique is still at a relatively nascent stage in its development, and still hasn't evolved to the point where there's a proven, standardised method that everyone can follow from day one. I think Troy Grady mentions on his webpage that most virtuoso players have lots of subtle mechanical habits that they've evolved subconsciously, and so aren't really equipped to explain.

Having said that, it's easy to complain about that lack of a proven, teachable method, but think how hard it must have been in the late seventies and early eighties when there were pretty much no instructional videos, and very few teachers who'd be able to teach technique to a McLaughlin/Holdsworth level. There've been huge advancements in both technique and pedagogy since then, so maybe in twenty years time it'll be much easier for electric guitarists to develop decent technique without going down various blind allies for years.


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## WillingWell (Oct 28, 2007)

OP, I know exactly what you mean. Every now and then I get frustrated with my alternate picking technique and practice it hard for a while. The way I learned and most commonly used is similar to Petrucci, which I figure is from learning a lot of technique from Rock Discipline and being a Petrucci fanboy in general. However, Gilbert is a big influence of mine too, and right there are two completely different styles of alternate picking.

Normally I anchor my pinky and pick mostly with my wrist with only a slightly angle towards the string, but tend to involve the arm more for faster alternate picking stuff. However, when I go through those reevaluation periods (I think I might be working on my picking again soon) I try out the Gilbert method of no anchored fingers and a greater picking angle and mostly wrist motion. What's difficult for me is the mechanics of picking like Gilbert when going fast, like those licks on two string that are sort of cyclic.

For example, the lick right before the whole bluesy bendy part in Curse of the Castle Dragon, where he's playing B-C-D on the 6th string and E on the 5th string, and repeats it up and down continually. That kind of lick, playing fast with his style, I don't understand how to play fast unanchored at all.

Needless to say I usually get frustrated and go back to my familiar technique that I've attained pretty damn fast speed with. I think I just have lust to pick as efficiently as Gilbert.


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 29, 2007)

Looks pretty much like straight elbow to me. His wrist isn't moving at all.


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## lordofthesewers (Oct 29, 2007)

people these days focus way too much on technique rather than musicallity. I think people should be teaching MUSIC, rather than finger and hand physical education on an instrument


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## josh821 (Oct 29, 2007)

lordofthesewers said:


> people these days focus way too much on technique rather than musicallity. I think people should be teaching MUSIC, rather than finger and hand physical education on an instrument



To an extent I agree but what happens when you know music theory as well as your first name but can hardly make a quarter note run up a scale faster than 23 BPM? I think it has to be more of a back and forth thing. You have to have a good foundation on how to hold a guitar, a pick, move your hand and fingers, etc, before it's worth learning some deep theory but you also shouldn't bother learning to sweep 19 octaves if you don't know what notes make up a C major scale. Too often people seem to get stuck on the latter and forget that they're playing music and you end up with a bunch of people who can shred like crazy but that are absolutely horrible to listen to (if you've ever worked in a music store you especially know what I'm talking about).



guitarplayerone said:


> not if you are alternate picking correcly. first of all, all your pickstrokes, down and up, should sound exactly the same.



This will never happen. Admittedly, if you're playing fast lines then you're very unlikely to notice but you will never make a down and up stroke sound exactly the same just because of the physics of sound. Check it out for yourself. Play a single note with all down strokes anywhere slowly then play the same exact note with all up strokes slowly. You're going to hear the reversed phase. It's the same thing if you're tuning without a tuner. Try tuning your A string and play a down stroke on the A and D string and they'll sound much closer than if you play a down stroke on the A and an up stroke on the D. It's all about the phase.


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## distressed_romeo (Oct 29, 2007)

lordofthesewers said:


> people these days focus way too much on technique rather than musicallity. I think people should be teaching MUSIC, rather than finger and hand physical education on an instrument



I agree to some extent, but you can't totally ignore the physical aspects of playing an instrument. It's a question of balance; it's no good having great ears and encyclopaedic knowledge of theory if your hands can't execute the ideas in your head, but at the same time focusing exclusively on technique and speed at the expense of learning about music turns guitar into little more than a track event.


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## guitarplayerone (Oct 30, 2007)

Unknown Doodl3.2 said:


> At what point do you know its time to crank the metronome faster?


when you have figured out what is wrong with your picking at very low speed and are comfortable with it, practice it hyper slow for a while. you wont need to crank the metronome, after a while, youll just need to set it faster and faster because you are building muscle memory.



Unknown Doodl3.2 said:


> EDIT: I may have found something. The angle my hand takes when it picks looks a bit odd. My knuckles extend outward from the front of the guitar therefore my pick is pointing slightly downwards. By the time I'm on the low E string the wrist is almost resting on the top of the Pickguard while my thumb picks the string. This could explain why I feel slower or faster on certain strings.


Your pick should always point slightly down, but the same amount on all strings. This is why you need to to move your elbow to compensate.



you can see clearly here. this is btw exactly what im talking about with wrist motion...


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## budda (Oct 31, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> honestly, I used to be enslaved by metronomes.
> 
> they are quite useless, unless to test accuracy at a certain speed.
> 
> ...



um, that's how you're supposed to practise with a metronome... perfect the riff/line/technique, keep it clean, and then speed up the metronome ONLY when you've perfected Y item at X speed.

just thought i'd throw that out there..


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## Emperoff (Nov 2, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> its a very specific way that you are supposed to pick... alas I have no camera otherwise I would post a very specific answer, its almost impossible to do without one...
> 
> the best approximation:
> check out the Cracking the Code video.. and pay attention to how they minimize motion. Thats very important. The specific motion is you use your arm to move from string to string so as to keep your hand (which is picking only from the wrist if youre anyone besides MAB) able to pick from the wrist and hit each note the same exact way. This involves very minute pick angle adjustments to make the pick 'flatter' on upstrokes.



I tried that and my alternate picking speed almost doubled  Maybe most people know this, but maybe don't, and I encourage them to give it a try. Don't know if that is THE way to do it, but for me just worked wonders


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## Gilbucci (Nov 3, 2007)

@guitarplayerone; 



Is that the type of wrist/elbow motion you're talking about?


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## Durero (Nov 3, 2007)

Good thread gp1  I'll stick in my  response to some of the points made by you & others in the thread so far.

I think all of the info you're talking about relating to alternate picking is excellent and accurate. Your emphasis on minimal movement and consistency of pick & wrist angle on every string is certainly essential to gaining speed & efficiency with this technique.

Another detail I'd add is to emphasize awareness of how tightly or loosely the pick grip is. I always encourage students to hold the pick as loosely as they can when starting alternate picking practice (or any pick technique for that matter.) It is extremely easy to unintentionally tighten-up on the pick as you play, especially when concentrating on any new techniques. With the pick in a loose grip it is easier to achieve a consistent tone with upstrokes & downstrokes sounding as similar as possible, and consistent rhythm without the pick catching on the string. It also provides for plenty of dynamic range where you can easily accent notes or play louder passages just by tightening your grip - requiring little or no change to the picking motion itself.


One nitpick, and maybe it's just the exaggerated tone of voice you're using when you say "metronomes are useless..." but I certainly don't agree with that bit. I agree with not being "enslaved" by them, and about using them to measure things, but to me the main purpose of practicing with a metronome is to develop the ability to _follow_ a beat as you play instead of always leading the beat. Any ensemble situation involves all of the players feeling the beat together and both leading & following as the moment requires. Since following requires you to hear your own part in relation to all the others, metronome practice is a very pure way to develop this skill because the metronome will happily ignore you and just click away steadily, forcing you to adapt & follow it.


I'm completely disagreed with your assessment of economy picking though. All the good qualities you ascribe to alternate picking are absolutely true (consistent tone, dynamic control, etc.) but it simply is not true that these same qualities can't be achieved with economy picking just as effectively.

About 15 years ago I would have agreed 100% with every one of your statements about how alternate picking is so much better, and that's where my technique was at that time. But some years later I took a second look at sweep/economy picking and decided to try it again seriously. It took me about 2 years to get any kind of rhythmic control over it, though the sound was still very weak. But after more years of practice, and especially when I started to use it on acoustic guitar as well, I was eventually able to gain back the dynamic control & articulation consistency which I had with alternate-picking.

I find that, for the same amount of muscle exertion, I can play much faster with economy picking, and that my actual speed limit is much higher with economy picking. But I still use either depending on the musical situation, and I certainly don't feel that one technique is better or more important than the other, they just have different characteristics.



In my experience there has been no particular correlation between a person's playing skills and their teaching skills, so I don't find it surprising when brilliant performers like the ones you've mentioned can only demonstrate what they do by doing it - and can provide little or no helpful information on the actual physical mechanics of their technique. I can't believe that any of them actually intend to mislead or 'hide' the essential details of what they do from anyone else. It's just that they were able to achieve their amazing levels of technique without needing to know much in the way of mechanical detail, so in turn they have little such awareness to share.


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## Durero (Nov 3, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> This is a case of one technique reinforcing the other. If you've developed your alternate picking so your up and down strokes sound virtually identical, then that should rub off on your economy picking technique, helping you avoid accenting notes based on the fingering rather than musical intent.
> 
> This is the reason I practice both techniques, and kinda think of them as being facets of the same approach. I've found that being able to go back and forth between both without radically overhauling my picking style's really helped with phrasing and control. Honestly, most people I've seen who've dismissed economy picking outright just haven't taken the time to develop it in the same way they have their alternate picking; they try it for half an hour and throw it out if they don't get instant results.


 100% with this as well as every post you've made in this thread


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## Zepp88 (Nov 3, 2007)

Childofshred19KS should ask Rusty to explain some things about it if she sees him/gets in his class again. 


Unless he's already given you tips?


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## oompa (Nov 3, 2007)

this is a good thread. ive been wondering quite alot about the exact details of hyper alternate picking.

first my own thoughts on my wrist/elbow technique:
i feel that i can go by wrist up to a certain tempo, but as i increase from there i gradually shift to elbow, and the shifting is so smooth that i can't tell at all until my elbow is really in heavy motion. i have no idea what bpms im playing, but ill make something up in round figures: say i can play wrist up to 160bpm. at 200bpm its 100% elbow, but the shift between there is so subtle, that i say.. no outsider could tell im using any elbow at all at say.. 170bpm, while at 180bpm im at say 50%w/50%e and maybe it will show. 

still it gets me thinking, cus i could probably play with about 25% elbow and you cant see it, cus its such small vibrations that just sortof.. extend the minimal movement that one stroke is, by an extra millimeter or something, to boost the wrist alittle. im thinking that maybe most of these guys use elbow to some extent when they're playing their really fast, longer runs. maybe they dont even know it, i dont know. it just feels hopeless to try to play say.. angel of death by slayer (intro is roughly 245bpm for about 2mins nonstop), by wrist ONLY, 100%.

the guy with the picking technique webpage points out the importance of using as little force as possible when playing. now, i have far more accuracy with my wrist, so in theory i could play alot faster (smaller, more exact accurate up-down alternates), but the muscles aint as good, so i gradually shift to elbow when the muscles cant keep up. here im losing accuracy so i use alot of excess motion. say if i alternate by wrist, i might stop a down stroke say (imaginary number) 1mm below the string. when i play by elbow at high speed, i might stop the downmotion 2mm below.

so what is the conclusion? that the best thing to do is probably to start practising stuff with elbow only at mid tempo, and really focusing on using as little excess motion as possible. the difference i see when i look at a thrash/dm band playing riffs at say 220+bpm, is that their elbow motion is so exaggerated, they're jerking off a cucumber while playing, while the guys with good elbow technique (MAB) looks like their arm is just calmly vibrating. the thrashsongs on the other hand are mainly a few tones on a few strings, wich allows you to use as much excess motion as you want, it doesnt really matter.

i think the best way to work alternate up to speed in my sit. is to "re-learn" picking, and doing it extremely tight and efficient, meaning practicing on stopping the downstroke exactly below the string, and vice versa with the upstroke. if you haven't tried it, just try playing something easy like -5-6-7-8- with as little motion as possible. cus thats pretty much what it looks like, just five times faster when rusty or mab plays.

i also wonder how much of it that really is just coordination. i mean, i can do a 4-5-6-7- hammeron rapido with my lefthand (im lefthanded tho, this problem might only be for lefties i dont know), and i can probably shed that fast as well if i get to play one note only. this is what mab is saying in his vid: the potential picking speed, wich is pretty much the speed you can shed on a single note. after that its all just coordination, but then again, it might only be for lefthanded people (or just me), my lefthand is faster than my righthand coordination wise.

a last thing that has been bugging me for a while is when shedders do fast attacks, al di meola or any other fast spanish guitarist are of course very keen on this. i mean goin from quiet and pull of a fast climb/descend scale, and every note sounds exactly as clear and accented. i really have a hard time goin from quiet to play say.. a 3n/string descend, say a major scale starting on high e, at i dunno... fast bpm. that has got to have something to do with my alternate picking technique not being tight. its as if i put way to much motion into the first couple of notes, wich just gets me out of rythm directly.

anyway, sry for all the text, its a good topic! im'a keep looking for answers to this stuff


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 7, 2007)

you really need to walk before you can run, and that really applies to alt picking...

are you completely clean at 200 bpm elbow? (if you are, hats off to you). however if youre like most you arent COMPLETELY clean, there are things you need to work on.

additionally, unless i'm greatly mistaken, all those guys are wrist dudes, and not elbow guys. having been an elbow guy I can tell you right now it was very hard (at least for me) to get any dynamics (or accuracy in the first place) whatsoever.
a lot of guys I think see elbow as a shortcut, and there arent really any shortcuts


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## Durero (Nov 8, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> additionally, unless i'm greatly mistaken, all those guys are wrist dudes, and not elbow guys. having been an elbow guy I can tell you right now it was very hard (at least for me) to get any dynamics (or accuracy in the first place) whatsoever.
> a lot of guys I think see elbow as a shortcut, and there arent really any shortcuts


+1


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## ultranoob (Nov 10, 2007)

i didn't read all the posts, but dude... technique is individual
I stress about this stuff probably as much as you do, and what it boils down to is what is comfortable. Picking angle is important and what muscles you use.. but when I try to conform to another's technique I just realize that I DON'T HAVE THEIR HANDS. My fingers are fucking long as hell, and I can't physically pull off what other's do. Don't stress out about what others do and just PRACTICE, I've studied all the big names and their techniques differ HUGELY, just do what is comfortable


edit: I read all the posts because I was so interested, and none of it changed my mind. JUST PRACTICE... you guys talk about wrist verses elbow... what about thumb? some guys (romeo, ynqwie) pick from a circular motion in the thumb, today i was watching shane gibson's circular sweeping motion that jason becker also used. I tried and tried and couldn't physically do it the way I see them do it. I believe the mechanisms of guitar technique will never be solidified classically the way piano and other other likely instruments have been. It is simply a matter of practice and luck training your hands. Don't stress about it any more! If you watch all the big names like I do, you will eventually realize that they all do it differently. Yes, the observation alone will help you THINK about what you do.. angles, grip, muscle tensions. but what is boils down to is what is comfortable.. stop thinking about this stuff so much and start thinking of what notes to hit over what chords and the world will be a better place


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 10, 2007)

ultranoob said:


> i didn't read all the posts, but dude... technique is individual
> I stress about this stuff probably as much as you do, and what it boils down to is what is comfortable. Picking angle is important and what muscles you use.. but when I try to conform to another's technique I just realize that I DON'T HAVE THEIR HANDS. My fingers are fucking long as hell, and I can't physically pull off what other's do. Don't stress out about what others do and just PRACTICE, I've studied all the big names and their techniques differ HUGELY, just do what is comfortable
> 
> 
> edit: I read all the posts because I was so interested, and none of it changed my mind. JUST PRACTICE... you guys talk about wrist verses elbow... what about thumb? some guys (romeo, ynqwie) pick from a circular motion in the thumb, today i was watching shane gibson's circular sweeping motion that jason becker also used. I tried and tried and couldn't physically do it the way I see them do it. I believe the mechanisms of guitar technique will never be solidified classically the way piano and other other likely instruments have been. It is simply a matter of practice and luck training your hands. Don't stress about it any more! If you watch all the big names like I do, you will eventually realize that they all do it differently. Yes, the observation alone will help you THINK about what you do.. angles, grip, muscle tensions. but what is boils down to is what is comfortable.. stop thinking about this stuff so much and start thinking of what notes to hit over what chords and the world will be a better place



I doubt it. While people may have minor individual differences in things like finger length, it will not change the fact that for the vast majority of people, certain picking styles WILL be better, and one will be the best. You will be able to go faster, with less stress on your body, less effort, and greater dynamic range. My question is why you think that guitar technique will never be a rigorous study as it is with the older instruments. What makes it so different? Do all violinists and pianists have the same build?

Also, what is comfortable in the beginning may not be what is best in the end.

This reminds me vaguely of tier arguments in fighting games.


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## ultranoob (Nov 10, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I doubt it. While people may have minor individual differences in things like finger length, it will not change the fact that for the vast majority of people, certain picking styles WILL be better, and one will be the best. You will be able to go faster, with less stress on your body, less effort, and greater dynamic range. My question is why you think that guitar technique will never be a rigorous study as it is with the older instruments. What makes it so different? Do all violinists and pianists have the same build?
> 
> Also, what is comfortable in the beginning may not be what is best in the end.
> 
> This reminds me vaguely of tier arguments in fighting games.



not to say that the study hasn't been attempted
Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques
I feel some techniques are superior, but the instrument and its relation to the player are just too dynamic to adhere to a strict regimen that other instruments have developed.. pressing keys can only be done in so many ways


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 10, 2007)

ultranoob said:


> not to say that the study hasn't been attempted
> Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques
> I feel some techniques are superior, *but the instrument and its relation to the player are just too dynamic to adhere to a strict regimen that other instruments have developed*.. pressing keys can only be done in so many ways



What does that even mean? In what sense is the instrument dynamic? In what sense is the relation to the player dynamic? What does that have to do with there being a most efficient technique?

That article has been discussed, if not in this thread, in others. He goes through and describes each style in detail, but gives no real evidence as to why he forms his opinion.


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## ultranoob (Nov 10, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> What does that even mean? In what sense is the instrument dynamic? In what sense is the relation to the player dynamic? What does that have to do with there being a most efficient technique?
> 
> That article has been discussed, if not in this thread, in others. He goes through and describes each style in detail, but gives no real evidence as to why he forms his opinion.



dynamic as in a lot of variables.. the instrument itself, radius of neck, action, string tension, amplification, the fretting hand - width of hand, length of fingers, which determines where the thumb can be placed and how high or low on the back of neck, if one's fingers are double jointed and how the thumb will respond pressing on the back of neck, the picking hand- length of fingers, how the thumb and index/middle clutch the pick, use or no use of thumb movement in picking, wrist movement, forearm movement, elbow movement. 

i just think its impossible for people to pick at this stuff at an exact formula. one's best bet is just to be aware of all these variables (and more..) and test what works best because it will differ for everyone


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 11, 2007)

ultranoob said:


> dynamic as in a lot of variables.. the instrument itself, radius of neck, action, string tension, amplification, the fretting hand - width of hand, length of fingers, which determines where the thumb can be placed and how high or low on the back of neck, if one's fingers are double jointed and how the thumb will respond pressing on the back of neck, the picking hand- length of fingers, how the thumb and index/middle clutch the pick, use or no use of thumb movement in picking, wrist movement, forearm movement, elbow movement.



Well, let's take these by groups. First off,



> how the thumb and index/middle clutch the pick, use or no use of thumb movement in picking, wrist movement, forearm movement, elbow movement.



These are all facets of technique. 



> radius of neck, action, string tension ... the fretting hand - width of hand, length of fingers, which determines where the thumb can be placed and how high or low on the back of neck, if one's fingers are double jointed and how the thumb will respond pressing on the back of neck, the picking hand- length of fingers, how the thumb and index/middle clutch the pick



These are all relevant variables in playing the violin. 

The best point that you've made here, I think, is amplification. Depending on how much gain you use, you may choose a different technique. But that's about it.


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## shredder777 (Nov 11, 2007)

I use my wrist and i try to limit my elbow movement, but lately ive been getting into circular picking like malmsteen, its a bitch to get it really clean when you play up to speed but you can get ridiculously fast once you master it.


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 11, 2007)

shredder777 said:


> I use my wrist and i try to limit my elbow movement, but lately ive been getting into circular picking like malmsteen, its a bitch to get it really clean when you play up to speed but you can get ridiculously fast once you master it.



my buddy has been studying circular picking all his life. it sounds godly for jazz, when he does it, but turned up you really notice the inconsistencies in attack (which are what makes it sound so cool in the first place)

hes learning to alt pick now, and says he likes it better for high-gain stuff

maybe a good idea to try all techniques?


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 15, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> The best point that you've made here, I think, is amplification. Depending on how much gain you use, you may choose a different technique. But that's about it.



I agree with him though. If its still about gain, then you will understand in a few years


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 15, 2007)

guitarplayerone said:


> I agree with him though. If its still about gain, then you will understand in a few years



Huh?


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## Naren (Nov 15, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Huh?



My word exactly. I was trying to figure what the heck his post meant.


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 16, 2007)

Naren said:


> My word exactly. I was trying to figure what the heck his post meant.



if picking technique is varied only according to the type of amp and amount of gain, then you miss out on a lot of feels and dynamic variations that require a different set of techniques to accomplish.


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## JBroll (Nov 17, 2007)

josh821 said:


> You're going to hear the reversed phase. It's the same thing if you're tuning without a tuner. Try tuning your A string and play a down stroke on the A and D string and they'll sound much closer than if you play a down stroke on the A and an up stroke on the D. It's all about the phase.



... Things like this make me doubt that most guitarists have any idea what they're talking about. You're going to hear the reversed phase? Good luck, most people have enough trouble recognizing pitches - being able to tell a sinusoidal function's starting position not only with practically infinitely many waves but also with transient content at the beginning that'll be far more noticeable than that is complete nonsense. Sure, maybe there is some inherent difference between upstrokes and downstrokes, if you just don't feel like allowing symmetry to exist, but this is utter nonsense. Tuning your A string down to D is going to result in much greater differences due to tension and string diameter than what you seem to be talking about. 

Al DiMeola once said that he thought that notes should come across with the right tone and accents regardless of the pickstroke, and I have to agree completely with that. Pardon me if I come across as sounding like an asshole... I just don't like people who don't know what words mean using them as if they do.

Jeff


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## josh821 (Nov 17, 2007)

JBroll said:


> ... Things like this make me doubt that most guitarists have any idea what they're talking about. You're going to hear the reversed phase? Good luck, most people have enough trouble recognizing pitches - being able to tell a sinusoidal function's starting position not only with practically infinitely many waves but also with transient content at the beginning that'll be far more noticeable than that is complete nonsense. Sure, maybe there is some inherent difference between upstrokes and downstrokes, if you just don't feel like allowing symmetry to exist, but this is utter nonsense. Tuning your A string down to D is going to result in much greater differences due to tension and string diameter than what you seem to be talking about.
> 
> Al DiMeola once said that he thought that notes should come across with the right tone and accents regardless of the pickstroke, and I have to agree completely with that. Pardon me if I come across as sounding like an asshole... I just don't like people who don't know what words mean using them as if they do.
> 
> Jeff



This is probably the worst way possible to correct someone and have them actually think about it and possibly agree. And yes, you do sound like an asshole, which isn't pardonable because you continued doing it even after realizing that you sound like an asshole.

All I'll say, play your high E with all down strokes followed immediately by all upstrokes and you'll hear a difference. It's possible that it's just how I pick but I'm pretty inclined to believe it has more to do with the phase of the sounds coming out. Yes, it is extremely possible for something to sound different when the phase is switched, just record something and press that phase reverse button back and forth. If you want to convince me that it has nothing to do with phase then you're going to have to do more than insult me.


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## JBroll (Nov 17, 2007)

josh821 said:


> Well, you are coming across sounding like an asshole, and I'm not going to pardon that since you noticed and continued to do it. But anyway...
> 
> Yes, there is a phase difference. Have you tried pluck any note repeatedly down a few times then repeatedly up a few times? You'll hear it, trust me, or your ears are shit (pardon me if that makes me sound like an asshole). Sure it's not a perfect sine wave but to assume that you only have phase issues when something is a perfect sine wave is pretty retarded (pardon me again). Have you ever looked at a mixer before? There's a little button on almost all of them, even exorbitantly expensive Neves, that says "Phase". That's there for a reason beyond having more than one mic recording at a time. If you dub over a guitar track you can end up with a lot of spots where the volume gets cut a bit due to phase issues and you press that little button to reverse the phase on one of those tracks to fix it.
> 
> Just because some guitarists can't hear the difference between a B and a Bb doesn't mean that there isn't a difference just as if some guitarists can't hear the difference when a string is plucked up or down doesn't mean there isn't a difference. That's besides the point though, which is that alternate picking is never going to really give you perfectly even sounds just like economy picking won't so it's kind of a moot to make that comparison.



I'm not trying to be an asshole. That was the point.

You don't need to explain phase to me. I called you out on your post with the basic definition of phase - I know what the hell I'm talking about. No, I've never looked at a mixer, or a preamp, or a DAW, or anything of the sort, so I've never seen that 'Phase' button, and I'd never have guessed that something that does anything of the sort could be even remotely useful... seriously, do you really think you're talking to a complete idiot? 

The point was that I know what phase is, and I don't think you do. Now that you're trying to explain it to me not as an actual concept but as an example of what you do with a button on a mixer, I've been given more reason to believe that - not only does phase (in that sense) require *two* different sources to be combined, its only effect will be to change the way they interfere with each other... not to be a magic upstroke button. 'Hear the reversed phase' - right-o, chief, whether there are differences or not you've officially lost any credibility you might have among people who actually know what they're talking about by trying to throw in scientific-sounding words where they don't fit. You'll have a hell of a time explaining to anyone how something can be out of phase with itself.

I didn't say that there wasn't a difference between B or Bb, so you're attacking the wrong argument here. Go ahead and actually go after the real content of that paragraph, not the part where I basically implied that you'd have to have the most amazing ears in existence to not only be able to figure out how to describe a wave generally but also to be able to determine its initial conditions... and, further, to extrapolate from those initial conditions which direction the pickstroke came from.

I can't tell if you're implying that I think that phase issues don't exist with things that aren't perfect sine waves... but I'm pretty sure I'm safe given that I never said that anything would be a perfect sine wave.

The reason I'm saying this is that I set out to fix that problem - and pulled it off. My ears aren't shit, I just put enough time into figuring out how to angle and emphasize pickstrokes in a way that can make them sound identical if I feel like it. 

Jeff


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## josh821 (Nov 17, 2007)

JBroll said:


> I'm not trying to be an asshole. That was the point.



So you're just naturally an asshole then and no matter how much you realize it or try to change it you can't stop?

You can't go on and on about how stupid you think someone is then be completely immune to looking like an asshole because you say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to sound like that". There is such a thing as a backspace key. That's like me saying at the end of this post that I'm not trying to get off topic and then getting pissed when someone says "stay on topic" because they should have known it's not an issue because I added that I'm trying to.

See, the post you replied to was somehow before I edited it because I realized it's stupid to argue and name call and so I took out the unnecessary harshness and just made my point. When you're not trying to be an asshole you do that instead of just adding "I'm not trying to be an asshole" and expecting no one to get offended.


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 17, 2007)

josh821 said:


> So you're just naturally an asshole then and no matter how much you realize it or try to change it you can't stop?
> 
> You can't go on and on about how stupid you think someone is then be completely immune to looking like an asshole because you say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to sound like that". There is such a thing as a backspace key. That's like me saying at the end of this post that I'm not trying to get off topic and then getting pissed when someone says "stay on topic" because they should have known it's not an issue because I added that I'm trying to.
> 
> See, the post you replied to was somehow before I edited it because I realized it's stupid to argue and name call and so I took out the unnecessary harshness and just made my point. When you're not trying to be an asshole you do that instead of just adding "I'm not trying to be an asshole" and expecting no one to get offended.



Get off it. You said something, and he called you on it.



Richard Dawkins said:


> Offense is what people take when they can't take argument.



I have no idea if phase has a damn thing to do with it, although I strongly doubt it, but that's irrelevant. If someone asks you to defend your position, you defend it, you don't bitch about how he's rude.


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## JBroll (Nov 17, 2007)

See... there are these little things called 'humor' and 'tone of voice' that don't seem to get transmitted across the internet. I can only spend so much space trying to cushion things before the point is completely lost - I prefer to just stay direct and to-the-point. If you heard me in person you'd have a significantly different opinion - there's only so much we can convey through text, and I prefer to just get right to saying what I need to say. On top of that... it's the fucking Internet, were you expecting hugging bunnies, flowers, sunshine, and happiness?

My point was that I've tried looking for differences between up and down strokes, and I've spent a good amount of time trying to see if other people could hear the difference. The differences that are there have nothing to do with phase and everything to do with differences between your upstrokes and your downstrokes - the musicians' idea of 'out-of-phase' is dependent solely on two sources interfering with each other, so you wouldn't be able to tell if one lone source was out of phase on its own. If you don't spend tons of time being an obsessive perfectionist, you will certainly hear differences between up and down strokes - but I've seen and heard enough people who are obsessive perfectionists and who made sure that they could get the two sounding identical to think that they're irreconcilably different.

Jeff


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 17, 2007)

JBroll said:


> but I've seen and heard enough people who are obsessive perfectionists and who made sure that they could get the two sounding identical to think that they're irreconcilably different.



lol they need to practice more...

but in all seriousness this is why, many many pages ago, I was saying that I always attempt to make them as similar mechanically as possible- only in this way will someone ever even get close
Seriously my only point is as far as leads on guitar go, if someone plans on doing 3nps scales they should work on this


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## ElRay (Nov 19, 2007)

josh821 said:


> You're going to hear the reversed phase.


You can't hear phase. There is no absolute phase reference point. You can hear phase differences, but only as they affect the total sound.

Without going into too much detail about how the ear works, you've got three processes going on. The first is a frequency to position mapping (specific neurons fire for a range of frequencies), the second is a volume to the number of neurons firing at a specific location (rate of fire too for high frequencies) and the third is a phase locking at lower frequencies.

At higher frequencies, the neurons can't fire fast enough to encode any phase information, and at lower frequencies, the rate of fire is synced to the absolute peaks (IIRC, there's no baseline activity rate for negative peaks to slow), so sin(x) and sin(x+pi/2) (two sounds 180 degrees out of phase) will sound exactly the same.

And even if there was encoding for the negative peaks, there's no way to tell a sine wave that's delayed by 1/2 of a cycle from a sine wave that 180 degrees out of phase -- they're the same.

Ray


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 20, 2007)

ElRay said:


> You can't hear phase. There is no absolute phase reference point. You can hear phase differences, but only as they affect the total sound.
> 
> Without going into too much detail about how the ear works, you've got three processes going on. The first is a frequency to position mapping (specific neurons fire for a range of frequencies), the second is a volume to the number of neurons firing at a specific location (rate of fire too for high frequencies) and the third is a phase locking at lower frequencies.
> 
> ...



I'm curious as to why you know that and can't figure out the solution to the question in your sig 

Anyone else want to chip in? I'm curious about the phase thing.


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## JBroll (Nov 20, 2007)

The sense musicians are used to hearing 'phase' in depends solely on comparison to another source or signal (phase problems with multiple micing, cabinet standing waves, et cetera) - to hear 'reversed' phase depends on having a simultaneous comparison point. I should probably have said that more clearly earlier.

Jeff


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## Unknown Doodl3.2 (Nov 28, 2007)

My biggest concern is to just develop a really clean rhythm picking hand. I don't understand how come I can keep up with Iced Earth's Stormrider gallop rhythms at 220 + bpm and then when I wanna do straight 16ths I can barely do 160-170 cleanly... its really frustrating when you consider the advancements I've made in other techniques *sigh*... it has even gotten worse in the past few days. I think MENTAL preparation also plays a big role in a solid practice regimen, and right now all I'm doing is getting frustrated as hell...


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## guitarplayerone (Nov 30, 2007)

Unknown Doodl3.2 said:


> My biggest concern is to just develop a really clean rhythm picking hand. I don't understand how come I can keep up with Iced Earth's Stormrider gallop rhythms at 220 + bpm and then when I wanna do straight 16ths I can barely do 160-170 cleanly... its really frustrating when you consider the advancements I've made in other techniques *sigh*... it has even gotten worse in the past few days. I think MENTAL preparation also plays a big role in a solid practice regimen, and right now all I'm doing is getting frustrated as hell...




I notice that for myself, my metal rythm guitar is based on a complete set of techniques, altogether. Is that song really alternate picked? (im not familiar with it). most metal (including gallops) involve straight downpicking, occasionall upstokes to do slightly faster stuff...


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