# Mastodon theory question



## JustMac (Jul 29, 2013)

No, this is not regarding the anatomy of the Mammoth's sworn enemy, but I was listening to Hearts Alive by the always-awesome Mastodon (i insist you listen to it if you have any love for prog-rock/long, epic rock and metal songs) The acoustic intro manages to conjure the theme of the song perfectly- Venturing into unknown waters, Waves crashing in a thunderstorm in a little boat. The chord progression confuses the hell out of me theoretically though....Is it some sort of half-whole harmony going on? Or a mode of the melodic minor? I can't really establish the scale it's in. It's the first 2 minutes or so. 


Any help is mucho apreciado


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## edsped (Jul 29, 2013)

It's not in a set scale or anything. I'm not gonna try to analyze what's going on theoretically, I'll let someone else do that if they feel like it, but rest assured they didn't write it with that mindset. They just found some arpeggios that use a bunch of open strings to get cool tensions and used a bunch of non diatonic movement. Very much a case of "hey I just came up with something and I don't know what it is but it sounds cool."


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## ghost_of_karelia (Jul 29, 2013)

That seems to be their major writing technique -- "I don't know what this is but it sounds cool". I'm sure they have at least a basic grasp of theory, but very little of what they do makes any theoretical sense (well it does, but not in the "I chose a scale/mode/chord progression and built this riff from there" way). Being an enormous fan of Mastodon, I can't say that this bothers me, as they come up with some truly incredible stuff.

(good song choice btw, Hearts Alive has to be one of the most "classic" Mastodon songs )


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## The Reverend (Jul 29, 2013)

INB4 SchecterWhore comes in and shits out the answers many of us spend years developing questions for.


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## AugmentedFourth (Jul 29, 2013)

```
| Fmaj7#11  | %           | Dbmaj7   | %           |
| Fmaj7#11  | %           | Dbmaj7   | %           |
| Gmin 2x3  | A7b9        | Gmin 2x3 | A7b9        |
| G9#11     | G#maj7      | E7       | %           |
| Dmaj      | Bbmaj(add4) | Dbmaj    | Dmin(add#4) |
| D-7       | Bbmaj7      | %       :||
```
(Tried to make this as readable as possible)

You'll note that in the very first chord, the 3rd is 'implied'.

So, basically the first two chords in this song do a little something called a 'chromatic mediant' relationship. This means that the two adjacent chords' roots are separated by a third (in this case, a major third) and the chords have the same quality (here, maj7).

This is something that only ever came around in the 20th century... it's a trick up the sleeve of several 20th century classical composers, and makes great use here creating a floating sense of tonality while staying grounded (as opposed to using something like a symmetrical scale).

Then, we move on to what I notated as "Gmin 2x3". Really this is not a chord in the way Mastodon were probably thinking of it, because what I mean by 2x3 is that it's a secundal chord with 3 tones. Really this is hogwash, but it makes more sense in the next measure when another tone is added. Let's take a look at our "Gmin 2x3" chord:

G A Bb

Yep. A lot less complicated than I make it seem. Looks like G minor... which is what Mastodon were going for.

In the next measure, a Db is added.

G A Bb Db

Or rather,

A Bb Db G

Which spells an A7b9 chord.

Now we are thinking, how does this relate at all to the first two chords?
My answer would be through, basically, the lydian diminished scale (lydian b3).

If we think of our very first chord as the tonic chord (which is usual), then it is like the I of F Ionian b6, Ionian b6 being the 5th mode of Bb lydian diminished. The problem with Ionian b6 having a natural 4 and our tonic having a #4 is circumvented by the chromatic mediant relationship. Therefore, if we ignore that and take the *first 4 chords* and take their tones collectively we get:

F G A Bb C Db E

i.e., F Ionian b6.

Therefore,

| I | % | bVI | % |
| I | % | bVI | % |
| ii | III7 | ii | III7 |

is the basic initial progression.

Although this idea seems to be shattered by the root of our next chord, it is not. The dominants are related through D harmonic and melodic minor.

The G#maj7 kind of seems like it is out of nowhere, but really they are kind of faking it by using good voice leading. The 1st and 2nd scale degrees on G resolve inward to G# (root), and the 3rd and 4th resolve inward to the C (the 3rd of G#maj).

Then there is another chromatic mediant relationship, and after that I would just say that the E7 acts as a V7 and Dmaj as a IV, and then there is yet another chromatic mediant...

Yeah I have no clue.

I say this all matter-of-factly, but I fully expect SW to come in here and whoop my ass momentarily.


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## JustMac (Jul 30, 2013)

^ Holy crap! 

Thanks again AugmentedFourth!


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## Workhorse (Aug 5, 2013)

I really doubt Mastodon are smart enough to appreciate theory like most prog bands would. I am an enormous mastodon fan, but I would be thoroughly surprised if they knew a thing or two about any of the things written above. More like, they listen to a lot of music and know how to write really good riffs because they stick to the basics, and only complicate things if they're going for something over the top, which is unusual for them. 

That being said, this is definitely one of their masterpieces. The Hunter was somewhat a disappointment because they chose to let go of all their extensive, complex songs entirely and focused on making melodic, classically rock type stuff. 

Anyone have any prediction as to where this next mastodon album is going? I am hoping they change it up significantly and try to avoid being so accessible.


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## JustMac (Aug 6, 2013)

Workhorse said:


> I really doubt Mastodon are smart enough to appreciate theory like most prog bands would. I am an enormous mastodon fan, but I would be thoroughly surprised if they knew a thing or two about any of the things written above. More like, they listen to a lot of music and know how to write really good riffs because they stick to the basics, and only complicate things if they're going for something over the top, which is unusual for them.
> 
> That being said, this is definitely one of their masterpieces. The Hunter was somewhat a disappointment because they chose to let go of all their extensive, complex songs entirely and focused on making melodic, classically rock type stuff.
> 
> Anyone have any prediction as to where this next mastodon album is going? I am hoping they change it up significantly and try to avoid being so accessible.


You your username with an awesome classic Mastodon tune!

For what it's worth, their lead guitarist, Brent Hinds, studied guitar and classical music at the Alabama School of Fine Arts, so I'm sure he knows a thing or two about theory.

I disagree about the Hunter though, they are progressive by nature and the Hunter gave them space to breathe as musicians without being tied down by a lyrical concept or idea, and they ventured into the realm of pop/radio rock on a couple of songs, and they still pulled it out of the bag. Was it even close to Leviathan or CTS in terms of quality? God no. But was is a great record on it's own merit? Absolute. The Sparrow is one of the best things they've done. I think too many bands refrain from exploring places outside of their comfort zone, leaving their music sounding stale and repetitive after a while. 

Their next record is said to be a lot more focused, dark and complex though from all the interviews I've seen/read. This was put up a few days ago
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news..._deeper_and_more_personal_with_new_album.html


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## Workhorse (Aug 10, 2013)

JustMac said:


> You your username with an awesome classic Mastodon tune!
> 
> For what it's worth, their lead guitarist, Brent Hinds, studied guitar and classical music at the Alabama School of Fine Arts, so I'm sure he knows a thing or two about theory.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't really rely on that - he might know his scales, notes and stuff - but I've met Brent - he's definitely someone who has done a fair share of drugs and doesn't seem like someone who would invest much time in studying. Maybe I am judging him, but I would think Bill would know a few more things actually. 

The hunter was a great album, but the songs had this very predictable outline to them. Some of their best songs are on that album and some very new ideas for Mastodon - but I felt their creativity was a little lacking. 

Hopefully the next album isn't like a basic rock album, I only ever picked up Mastodon cause they sort of let loose on those records


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