# Educate me. Whats the big deal with blues guitarists?



## 777 (Mar 29, 2021)

This is a long standing question I've had since I began guitar. In my current view, blues guitarists are given far more reverence than I think they really deserve. I may be ignorant here but my argument is:

Playing stock pentatonic licks over 12 bar blues is not deserving of being called a guitar god. No matter how well its done. Why don't fusion/jazz/modern players receive this same reverence?

Before the fire starts.. I know a lot of big names are in their own right great guitar players. My argument is AFAIK Bonamasa/Clapton/King/SRV are all considered gods for playing some blues. Which all boils down to the same thing for my ears. Which is pentatonic over a 12 bar blues. I want to know what people get out of listening to whole concerts of that.

The same can be said of drop tuned metal albums all being in (Lowest note)Minor. 

Before you comment, please know that I am posting this thread out of a genuine want for education, not to shit on a style of music. I genuinely don't understand what the craze is and want to hear your opinions.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

You're sort of ignoring historical context and pop culture impact. It's also a disservice to lump in vastly different players from different generations. 

If you genuinely want to understand, short biographies of those players are readily available, as well as much of thier musical catalogs, online.


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## akinari (Mar 29, 2021)

My take on the subject is that blues guys get more recognition because the music they play is simpler and easier to digest for non-musicians. Play someone SRV and then play them Shawn Lane or Holdsworth. They'll probably make a remark about how amazing SRV is, and then make a stank face or ask you to play something else when they hear the other guy. Blues music is essentially a couple of formulas that have been repeated by other folks ad nauseam...

HOWEVER. I will say that I do really enjoy and appreciate some bluesmen. RL Burnside, Albert Collins, Model T Ford, Son House, Junior Kimbrough, and Fred McDowell are my favorites. From a clinical standpoint, I usually hate to talk about a particular artist or their take on music being "soooo amazing bro it's authentic and it has FEELINGGGGG" because all music is emotional, but there's something special about those guys, however you want to quantify it.


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## Demiurge (Mar 29, 2021)

Blues were the foundation of rock music in both sonics and imagery, so a bit of continued affinity should be marginally understandable.


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## KailM (Mar 29, 2021)

I saw BB King one time. There _was_ something magical about that man’s playing, and his overall presence in the room. That’s about all I can say.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 29, 2021)

Agree with you now, that in 2021 their playing is very "meh"

But those guys were super popular, music was accessible to the masses with solid song-writing, and they made guitar cool. I can't name a single fusion player.


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## pawel (Mar 29, 2021)

You have to keep in mind that some of them have invented what we now think of as stock pentatonic licks - they were new and fresh at that time.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 29, 2021)

Discounting Joe Bonamassa is a huge mistake, and you've clearly never really listened to his music.. While he primarily plays blues, the dude has chops for days. He's an absolute monster on guitar. All of the other guys you mentioned are monster players too, and it's beyond reductive to say they just sit in the pentatonic boxes. That's like saying Yngwie can only play with harmonic minor riffs or Jeff Loomis can only use diminished licks lol

this vid where he goes all eric johnson for shits and giggles

this is literally just him shredding on an acoustic guitar for 10 mins. The intro shred and the part at 7:18 onwards are awesome, and definitely not pentatonic boomer blues.

7:15 on is his solo


Also this one is awesome. The intro is very decidely not bluesy


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## possumkiller (Mar 29, 2021)

Idk man, I think it's just an age thing. I was born way after all the big blues guys made their impact. It was the 90s and so not cool to be into metal but I was hardcore into 80s thrash, black metal, speed metal, power metal, industrial metal. Everything but numetal. I had all these old dicks constantly trash talking the music I listened to, the music I played, and the guitars I played because they thought it was way overkill and had no substance. It wasn't anything like their blues rock gods from the 60s and 70s. So they got on my nerves and I couldn't stand them and because of them, I couldn't stand their blues rock bullshit. Fast forward 25 years and now I'm an old man that doesn't listen to anything more recent than the last SYL album unless it's some kind of retro stuff. All this new metal the kids are putting out now and calling amazing is just garbage. It has no substance. It will never be as good as the classic metal of the 80s and 90s. These kids and their stupid strandbergs with a billion strings and angled frets with some bullshit profiling amps. Spending $500 on some authentic airy and articulate passive pickups because they can't stand the EMG compression only to then play through a bunch of boosts and compressors. WTF is wrong with a decent Jackson and a Dual Rec? Nowadays when I look for something new to listen to, I go backward in time and hit up the classic rock and bluesy shit because even though I hated those assholes growing up, I feel more of a connection to it than the horseshit kids are calling music these days.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 29, 2021)

SS.Org's Irish Guy should listen to Rory Gallagher and get back to us.


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## RevDrucifer (Mar 29, 2021)

Hahahah, I remember saying this stuff to my dad and uncle back in the 90’s when I started. I found it so boring, which is funny, because David Gilmour was why I started playing and is still my #1 guitar idol. 

But he’s kind of a microcosm of why blues guitarist are so highly regarded; he uses just a few notes without blazing technique to deliver a message. For me, no one does it better than him and while JoBo, Clapton, BB King, etc are all great, Gilmour can play one note and it’ll make me feel something.

Over time, that kind of discussion has taken on a life of it’s own and is something that just gets thrown around by boomers/gatekeepers/haters/whatever. Just like underground metal kids are all about staying trve to underground metal, there’s a group of guitarists that find something pure about the pentatonic scale and straying outside of that is no longer “trve”.


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## efiltsohg (Mar 29, 2021)

SRV's playing is infinitely more interesting than anything a shredder has ever played, and I don't even like the blues


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## nickgray (Mar 29, 2021)

777 said:


> Why don't fusion/jazz/modern players receive this same reverence?



The music is less digestible.



777 said:


> I genuinely don't understand what the craze is



Me neither. Personally, I don't really get the hype behind guitar gods and all that solo guitar centric improvisational kind of music. Not that I dislike it (not at all really), but despite being a guitar player I don't have any particular attachment to "noodling over chords" kind of music.


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## Taylord (Mar 29, 2021)

All the guitar gods of yesteryear all stand out and stand the test of time because they arrived before music/culture was so oversaturated. There were plenty of guitar players better than clapton, but he was the right face at the right place at the right time. At the time, I believe their music was way more mainstream and accessible. Now there are pop stars that aren't really serious musicians, and crazy shredders that have no vocals or no pop songwriting sensibilities. A lot of our beloved classic artists could live in both worlds.

I used to play in a djent band and when we would play locally there was no scene for it so people were not interested. Now in a boomer cover band I can play the same 3 stock licks and people go nuts. If you don't like metal or experimental song form, then as soon as you hear distortion and crazy drums you are turned off. Most people like a solo they can follow, not 100 notes a second. Blues is familiar and digestible. My 2 cents...


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

TL;DR - people like it and spend money on it, and musicians (outside niche genres) like to take people's money and make music that people want to listen to.

Because it's easy for non-musicians to catch on to, and musicians by and large like to make music audiences actually want to hear. Maybe not musicians on this forum, but in general. I don't get it either. Joe B. can hammer on as fast as he wants, he hasn't done anything on the guitar that I wanna hear, and his "pop" songs are total garbage IMO. Some of it is definitely age, I'm sure. I have no use for 99% of music made before 1995, honestly, and I don't really care at all about who influenced who or who did it first, all I care about is that I wanna listen to it, and there is pretty much no blues/blues rock that I want to intentionally listen to, but especially the stuff that focuses on "blues guitar". I'll take mindless 200bpm modal sweeping over blues any day.


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## John (Mar 29, 2021)

Blues, or as this talk has been progressing- blues rock, aren't without their merits. Still, a lot of it with context or otherwise winds up getting overblown.


I can appreciate listening to some Santana music, for example (both the old stuff and the more recent stuff like Supernatural), along with folks who've put themselves in a relatively vulnerable spot outside of what others may be accustomed to in one way or another.

ie- Eric Johnson's take on a jazz/12 bar blues standard: Mr. PC





Part of the spammed adulation can be attributed to nostalgia, part of it can also be traced to how relatively accessible (or even digestible) the blues-rock format and works with the aforementioned have been compared to some other music, including hearing any of that stuff in the first place. ie- when I was starting out, that was the vast majority of anything remotely guitar-related that was played and liked by other musicians in the area. Things weren't as accessible back then, so there was more effort involved in trying to find music from other styles and musicians just to broaden my horizons. That ranged from metal, prog, hardcore punk, even flamenco and fusion due to how narrow of a scope the readily the accessible stuff was.

Still, like most other styles at this point, there's pretty much always going to be a subset of that population and fanbase who won't shut up about it to the point of being laughably toxic, as if it's the be all end all best thing since sliced bread. It's not unique to blues/rock, but it's an unfortunately real and existing part of that given genre.
_(More than enough people like this can be found, just the same, with the likes of big 4 thrash fanboys, the elitist jazz fans, country fans, even towards musicians or bands in particular like Neural Milk Hotel and other indie things of the like, as but a few examples going past the scope of this particular style at hand)._

On that note for the latter- I for one don't regard Bonamassa as prominent. More like he only managed to stay afloat with some corny boomer pandering takes and gear hoarding, as hearing his work has been incredibly boring, at best, both from a guitar playing and songwriting perspective.


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## thebeesknees22 (Mar 29, 2021)

Blues are friggin great. There's so much unpolished raw emotion there. Go back and dig into 1920's-1940's blues. There are songs there that are emotionally heavy. Go back and listen to old chain gang songs too. You can hear the beginnings of modern music in them.

Ken Burns blues documentary is fantastic. 

You can throw some bluesy bendy licks in pretty much any song and it'll automatically give it some attitude instead of the typical metal marching tappy plinkity plink beat. 

Keith richards once said (to paraphrase 'cause I forget the exact quote) white guys took the swing of the blues and turned it into a march. 

Which is true.. Most of modern rock and metal is a marching beat and not a swinging blues beat. Add a little swing into your music and suddenly you have a rockin' groove. I try to make a conscious effort to avoid the "march" after hearing that most of the time.


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## budda (Mar 29, 2021)

Whenever someone posts a thread like this, I always wonder if they can play a pentatonic lick with the same swagger and mojo as a great blues artist.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 29, 2021)

KailM said:


> I saw BB King one time. There _was_ something magical about that man’s playing, and his overall presence in the room. That’s about all I can say.



I saw him with Jeff Beck opening, with Terry Bozzio on drums for Beck. 
Bb was so connected to his music, and since lyrically the blues so relatable to everyday life, there is a deeper connection to/from artist/listener.


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## michael_bolton (Mar 29, 2021)

without denying the obvious historical impact of the blues players, for me personally the bluesier zeppelin and ac/dc tunes are bout as bluesy as I'm willing to get. well then there's Mash Potato Johnson too I suppose. to each their own though - someone likes that - more power to them.

so now where there IS some contention is when a one shape A minor pentatonic aficionado would be making the opposite claim - you know the "one blue note bend over 12 bars beats all that mindless shredding" referring to the blues greats as an appeal to authority of sorts. but even then - who cares.


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## mmr007 (Mar 29, 2021)

I don't know that there is a blues craze....but to be honest guitar music is more than just different scales and incorporating music knowledge and theory. Some people are attracted to that. But if you watch and listen...really listen you realize just how much can be said in the notes they (blues guitarists) choose. Could BB King ever keep up with YJM? No. Probably doesn't know as much music theory either but if you really just sit and enjoy a blues guitarist like say Josh Smith you will realize what you say with an instrument is more interesting than how complex you phrase. I don't know if that makes sense but the expression of a single note matters more than proving you know what other notes theoretically work around it.

Remember...if you wanna be an artist and not just a youtuber...your guitar playing has to appeal to music consumers...not guitar collectors with their own channel.

My favorite band is Slayer. I love Jeff Hanneman and Gary Holt (could care less about KFK) but I CANNOT just sit and listen to those guys riff and solo and play and enjoy myself whereas I could sit all day and watch Dan Patlansky or Josh Smith and just be amazed...they don't make noise happen. They make emotions happen.


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## profwoot (Mar 29, 2021)

The main thing to keep in mind is that the ability to improvise is a very different skill from the ability to write and play a shreddy solo. 

For example, I adore John Mayer and think he deserves all the "guitar hero" talk he gets and more, despite the fact that his playing is not particularly shreddy. His note choices and phrasing are immaculate, even in the midst of a several-minutes-long improv section. If those things aren't what get you going, then yeah you're not going to love it. But those things are essential even for shredders, and certainly a ton of shredders could really learn a lot from such players.


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## DudeManBrother (Mar 29, 2021)

There are infinite ways to express a “blues scale” so it’s not about the notes they leave out; but the notes they chose to play so melodically. The big hook with the horn section in Stevie Wonder’s Sir Duke is a basic blues (pentatonic +1 Chromatic) scale and it slams way different than BB playing the same notes that can emote a feeling or regret or sorrow; or Coltrane making it sound like a chaotic frenzy of notes.

As far as accolades go: people also praise Cardi B, Megan thee Stallion, Madonna, Brittany Spears etc as musical genius and somehow empowering to women; when in reality they’ve all capitalized on what is essentially softcore porn to sell records with no substance. Meanwhile the talented females, even within the same genres, like Snow tha Product and Lauryn Hill, barely scrape above the surface, with some recognition at times, but nowhere near the push or praise that 100% sex gets. All that is just to say that just because it’s popular and/or successful: doesn’t mean it’s necessarily great, or that you have to like it. 

I personally never got into Stevie Ray Vaughan. I love Jimi, who did it first, in a time that the sound had never been heard in such a way. SRV is obviously heavily inspired by Jimi, and Im sure he has his own twist, but when I hear him play it only makes me think of the guy that did it first. But fast forward a couple generations and I love John Mayer, who’s heavily influenced by both, but IMO is a better songwriter than both those guys.


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## InCasinoOut (Mar 29, 2021)

budda said:


> Whenever someone posts a thread like this, I always wonder if they can play a pentatonic lick with the same swagger and mojo as a great blues artist.


See, but that's the thing that brings up the question. Why does the blues get that reverence as if playing a _PeNtAtOnIc LiCk WiTh_ _fEeLiNg _is the mark of a real guitar player that "get's it"?? Sure there's lots of historical context and importance behind the blues, but I always felt like it's very formulaic and it's very heavy reliance on pentatonics makes everything sound the same, so I've never been interested. It's like trying to write poetry with less than half of the alphabet. Sure, more letters doesn't make better poetry, but how many times can you use the same words without saying the same thing? Then, when you start playing outside the blues box to make things interesting, it quickly stops being the blues and you end up with genres that IMO, are far more musically interesting, like soul, funk, jazz, and RnB. You can drop blues licks over any of those genres and it'll fit, but do the reverse and it'll make a blues song sound less like the blues.

I'm actually not trying to rag on the blues. I respect it's cultural importance, but I just never found it interesting, even though many of my favorite genres are without a doubt born from it, by exploring outside of what it started.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Mar 29, 2021)

budda said:


> Whenever someone posts a thread like this, I always wonder if they can play a pentatonic lick with the same swagger and mojo as a great blues artist.



Guilty, yer Honour!

There was a time I could play Satriani’s entire catalogue almost note for note.

However... Slowing it right down, improvising in 12 bars, trying to get a theme going and resolving it on the fly...


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

Saying Vaughn is to Hendrix is like saying Vai is to Satch. Stevie definitely wore his hero worship of Jimi on his sleeves, but outside of some covers that tend to get airplay they were incredibly different players. From tone to note choice to overall vibe. 

It's such a shame Stevie died so young and thus gets lumped in as just an addendum to the blues rock movement and a "white Hendrix". 

If you dig into his catalog, not even the deep cuts, there is some absolutely beastly playing from a technical standpoint. He could play fast, technique driven guitar as well as most we tend to think of as "shredders".


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## H I G H W I N D (Mar 29, 2021)

budda said:


> Whenever someone posts a thread like this, I always wonder if they can play a pentatonic lick with the same swagger and mojo as a great blues artist.



Where do you draw the line? Blues guys rant and rave about good vibrato but turn their nose at Yngwie Malmsteen and Marty Friendman who sure as hell have better vibrato than most of them.


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## profwoot (Mar 29, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> See, but that's the thing that brings up the question. Why does the blues get that reverence as if playing a _PeNtAtOnIc LiCk WiTh_ _fEeLiNg _is the mark of a real guitar player that "get's it"?? Sure there's lots of historical context and importance behind the blues, but I always felt like it's very formulaic and it's very heavy reliance on pentatonics makes everything sound the same, so I've never been interested. It's like trying to write poetry with less than half of the alphabet. Sure, more letters doesn't make better poetry, but how many times can you use the same words without saying the same thing? Then, when you start playing outside the blues box to make things interesting, it quickly stops being the blues and you end up with genres that IMO, are far more musically interesting, like soul, funk, jazz, and RnB. You can drop blues licks over any of those genres and it'll fit, but do the reverse and it'll make a blues song sound less like the blues.



Step one would be finding blues that isn't just pentatonic to listen to. Frankly I assume it'd be harder to find blues that _is_ pentatonic, since blues players tend to use the hexatonic blues scale as their default, with mixolydian also being very common.


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## High Plains Drifter (Mar 29, 2021)

Blues is the foundation of feeling... heart, soul, hardship, and history. In many instances blues simply exist as a means to tell a story... pulling the listener in and doing so without pretension. That's what I get from some of the greats.. legendary as well as obscure. I've never considered any aspect of blues to be a craze and never considered one artist or genre to be more revered than another. I love many genre's... jazz, classical, hip-hop, etc, metal, etc and I admire and appreciate many modern musicians in the same way... just a matter of what particular notes, tones, and words awaken some type of genuine emotion within me.


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## InCasinoOut (Mar 29, 2021)

profwoot said:


> Step one would be finding blues that isn't just pentatonic to listen to. Frankly I assume it'd be harder to find blues that _is_ pentatonic, since blues players tend to use the hexatonic blues scale as their default, with mixolydian also being very common.


Right, I'd totally explore more blues if I knew where to look, but in this thread alone the suggestions are basically to listen to when blues players... sound less like the blues. Maybe that's just what I need lol.


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## nickgray (Mar 29, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> Right, I'd totally explore more blues if I knew where to look



This dude is a pretty amazing player, lots of awesome stuff on his channel, check him out:


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> Right, I'd totally explore more blues if I knew where to look, but in this thread alone the suggestions are basically to listen to when blues players... sound less like the blues. Maybe that's just what I need lol.



Blues is more of a vibe than a super rigid set of tenets. Just like metal.


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## profwoot (Mar 29, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> Right, I'd totally explore more blues if I knew where to look, but in this thread alone the suggestions are basically to listen to when blues players... sound less like the blues. Maybe that's just what I need lol.



Give this a shot. It's total stereotype slow blues with plenty of non-pentatonic stuff, including some cool major-minor stuff (which is also fairly common).


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## oldbulllee (Mar 29, 2021)

vast majority of audience does not care for the technical aspects of music. simple as that. unless you are a musician, how would you even appreciate the things that loomis, guthrie, holdsworth etc... do? your average, non guitarist, listener might notice that he is playing something fast, and that is it.
blues, as a popular form, tends to leave room for instrumental, and hence guitars to do a lot of solo work. more than your average radio pop or rock. that is where people notice the guitar solos. and the average person is more likely to connect with something simpler, more powerful and emotional in a solo. not a gazzillion notes in a dozen different modes.
i never could stand santana, though. can't stand his playing to this day. like he made a style out of crappy vibrato and crappy phrasing.


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## pawel (Mar 29, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> but I always felt like it's very formulaic and it's very heavy reliance on pentatonics makes everything sound the same



But it doesn‘t - like with any other genre there are nuances that you will notice once you get deeper into it. It‘s the same with, say, metal - to those not familiar with it it will just sound like it‘s all distorted minor key riffing in E/D/Drop C etc. 

I recommend checking out some Josh Smith and especially his instructional videos where he discusses the styles of his favourite blues players. 

That said, nobody needs to like a particular genre and, yes, there was a wave of SRV clones which didn‘t reflect that well on the scene. I find that the more recent young(er) players tend to have their own thing going though.


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## 777 (Mar 29, 2021)

Thanks for the responses so far everyone. I admitted my ignorance at the start and this is definitely starting to open my eyes, ears and mind so far


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 29, 2021)

InCasinoOut said:


> Right, I'd totally explore more blues if I knew where to look, but in this thread alone the suggestions are basically to listen to when blues players... sound less like the blues. Maybe that's just what I need lol.


Robbie Basho, Derek Trucks, Eric Johnson, Ariel Posen, Ry Cooder (the guy who wrote and played basically all the guitar parts in the movie Crossroads among other things), Brett Garsed (though he leans way more fusion) are all good for that. Trucks and Basho in particular use a ton of classical indian/middle eastern inspired riffs. Or if you want something more tangentially metal, check out Zeal and Ardor. It's basically old school delta blues/work songs (think Robert Johnson/Howling Wolf) mixed with a dash of "black" metal/death metal.


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## gunshow86de (Mar 29, 2021)

Subscribe to Kirk Fletcher's YouTube, almost daily lessons on blues history (with great playing to boot).


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## jephjacques (Mar 29, 2021)

I don't listen to the stuff but playing blues licks is fun as shit, that's good enough for me


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## jephjacques (Mar 29, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Robbie Basho, Derek Trucks, Eric Johnson, Ariel Posen, Ry Cooder, Brett Garsed (though he leans way more fusion) are all good for that. Trucks and Basho in particular use a ton of classical indian/middle eastern inspired riffs. Or if you want something more tangentially metal, check out Zeal and Ardor. It's basically old school delta blues/work songs (think Robert Johnson/Howling Wolf) mixed with a dash of "black" metal/death metal.



Zeal and Ardor fucking owns, dude started it to troll metal racists on 4chan


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## c7spheres (Mar 29, 2021)

The big deal is what they play or how well they play has almost nothing to do with it. 
- It's about how well they can play your soul! Like Gilmore or Hendrix. They can both play really well and use pentatonics a lot but that's not the point. 

- Techincal or physical ability on guitar has nothing to do with writing good music. 

This guy here is awesome, imo, but maybe not regarded as a great guitar god player. Doesn't matter. In all honesty I'd rather listen to him than a guitar god like Yngwie because his music touches me deep inside my happy place! 





Yeah buddy! He don't even need a guitar at all!


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

1. Do you revere orators because they speak fast or because they speak well?

Then why do you rate guitarists based on speed?

2. Do you rate orators based on substance or because they can recite all the rules of grammar and syntax?

Then why do you rate guitarists based on their ability to play practice scales, modes, patterns, sweep arpeggio shapes, etc?

Tl;dr just because you talk fast and say a lot doesnt mean you have anything worthwhile to say.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

For those looking to hear some good blues, country, etc heres a great primer:





Everyone knows SRV. Danny Gatton could shred as fast as anyone. He had perfect pitch and flawless techniques. Him and Roy Buchanan are considered the Telemasters.



H I G H W I N D said:


> Where do you draw the line? Blues guys rant and rave about good vibrato but turn their nose at Yngwie Malmsteen and Marty Friendman who sure as hell have better vibrato than most of them.



No they dont. You're projecting TGP trolls on blues players. 

And the reason many blues players have better bending and vibrato techniques is dynamics - blues leads are out in front of the music and a bad vibrato/bend is there for all to see. When you're playing 16th notes at 140 BPM you can play utter shite and no one notices/cares.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

I think a lot of the disconnect for people (myself included, most likely) is listening habits and expectations. When someone tells me "You gotta check out X new guitarist, he's AWESOME!" I assume its because there is either a skill present, or an approach to the sound that makes them stand out, but I'm listening for those things in the context of what I want to hear, so if it's just someone nailing minor arpeggios at light speed, I don't get why it's awesome. Nothing new or cool happening, same for blues. I love rhythmically challenging music, music that pulls new sounds out of the instruments, way more than I pay attention to if something is melodically pleasing, or if it invokes an emotion in myself, and blues is not rhythmically challenging and there are definitely not any new sounds to be found (IMO), so no matter how good at it a player is, in my mind its a whole lot of MEH.



USMarine75 said:


> 1. Do you revere orators because they speak fast or because they speak well?
> 
> Then why do you rate guitarists based on speed?
> 
> ...



Works both ways, though. Just because you talk at a moderate pace and use feel words doesn't mean you have anything to say, either. I personally prefer someone who speaks quickly and accurately when they have something to say because meandering around the point to establish a mood is obnoxious AF in real life, lol.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I think a lot of the disconnect for people (myself included, most likely) is listening habits and expectations. When someone tells me "You gotta check out X new guitarist, he's AWESOME!" I assume its because there is either a skill present, or an approach to the sound that makes them stand out, but I'm listening for those things in the context of what I want to hear, so if it's just someone nailing minor arpeggios at light speed, I don't get why it's awesome. Nothing new or cool happening, same for blues. I love rhythmically challenging music, music that pulls new sounds out of the instruments, way more than I pay attention to if something is melodically pleasing, or if it invokes an emotion in myself, and blues is not rhythmically challenging and there are definitely not any new sounds to be found (IMO), so no matter how good at it a player is, in my mind its a whole lot of MEH.
> 
> 
> 
> Works both ways, though. Just because you talk at a moderate pace and use feel words doesn't mean you have anything to say, either. I personally prefer someone who speaks quickly and accurately when they have something to say because meandering around the point to establish a mood is obnoxious AF in real life, lol.



Point completely missed.

You know who also loved dogs? Hitler.

Sigh.


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## StevenC (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I think a lot of the disconnect for people (myself included, most likely) is listening habits and expectations. When someone tells me "You gotta check out X new guitarist, he's AWESOME!" I assume its because there is either a skill present, or an approach to the sound that makes them stand out, but I'm listening for those things in the context of what I want to hear, so if it's just someone nailing minor arpeggios at light speed, I don't get why it's awesome. Nothing new or cool happening, same for blues. I love rhythmically challenging music, music that pulls new sounds out of the instruments, way more than I pay attention to if something is melodically pleasing, or if it invokes an emotion in myself, and blues is not rhythmically challenging and there are definitely not any new sounds to be found (IMO), so no matter how good at it a player is, in my mind its a whole lot of MEH.
> 
> 
> 
> Works both ways, though. Just because you talk at a moderate pace and use feel words doesn't mean you have anything to say, either. I personally prefer someone who speaks quickly and accurately when they have something to say because meandering around the point to establish a mood is obnoxious AF in real life, lol.


You ever listen to "I have a dream" and wonder why he bothers with all the pauses?


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

Heres a perfect example... I LOVE Josh Smith... and Martin Miller is an amazing teacher and technician. Their version is a lesson in guitar technique. But as a song its garbage devoid of any feeling or emotion IMO. To each his own because I'm sure some of you will prefer their version. That's what is great about music... it's most often subjective and experiential.





[Edited above... sorry if I ninja'd anyone!]



StevenC said:


> You ever listen to "I have a dream" and wonder why he bothers with all the pauses?



No... he thinks the micro machines guy is the greatest orator in history.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Point completely missed.
> 
> You know who also loved dogs? Hitler.
> 
> Sigh.


 What, exactly, was the point I missed? It seemed the point you were making is that "story telling" is a more important aspect than grammar or speaking ability, and I'm saying that's entirely dependent on who is listening. Which is also applicable to music.


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## gunshow86de (Mar 29, 2021)

Come on now, we all know the Micro Machines commercial guy was the greatest orator of our time.


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## gunshow86de (Mar 29, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> No... he thinks the micro machines guy is the greatest orator in history.


Wow, great minds. Almost identical phrasing too.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

StevenC said:


> You ever listen to "I have a dream" and wonder why he bothers with all the pauses?


 No, but I also didn't get all teary listening to it, either. 



USMarine75 said:


> No... he thinks the micro machines guy is the greatest orator in history.


 I much prefer the 90s SEGA voice guy


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 29, 2021)

Both sides of the spectrum here are incredibly cringey and close-minded IMO.


possumkiller said:


> Idk man, I think it's just an age thing. I was born way after all the big blues guys made their impact. It was the 90s and so not cool to be into metal but I was hardcore into 80s thrash, black metal, speed metal, power metal, industrial metal. Everything but numetal. I had all these old dicks constantly trash talking the music I listened to, the music I played, and the guitars I played because they thought it was way overkill and had no substance. It wasn't anything like their blues rock gods from the 60s and 70s. So they got on my nerves and I couldn't stand them and because of them, I couldn't stand their blues rock bullshit. Fast forward 25 years and now I'm an old man that doesn't listen to anything more recent than the last SYL album unless it's some kind of retro stuff. All this new metal the kids are putting out now and calling amazing is just garbage. It has no substance. It will never be as good as the classic metal of the 80s and 90s. These kids and their stupid strandbergs with a billion strings and angled frets with some bullshit profiling amps. Spending $500 on some authentic airy and articulate passive pickups because they can't stand the EMG compression only to then play through a bunch of boosts and compressors. WTF is wrong with a decent Jackson and a Dual Rec? Nowadays when I look for something new to listen to, I go backward in time and hit up the classic rock and bluesy shit because even though I hated those assholes growing up, I feel more of a connection to it than the horseshit kids are calling music these days.



Admittedly coming from a 29 year old, but I find it detrimental to be so closed off to others or care about their opinions allowing them to curate YOUR own tastes.

It's a shame that people reacted that way to your music back in the day, but I find it strange that you took the bitterness from those interactions and turned it into a vendetta against the music they enjoyed. But it's even more extreme the more I read into your comment here, you're totally shutting out musicians by the gear they play which is *intensely* close-minded.

You're likely not searching enough to find the gems floating in the ocean of bands that are more visible now than before. The market of musical acts is as saturated as ever, and you're gonna run into some garbage here and then. So I don't blame you for running into a handful of bad bands, but why not just put a bit more effort to find musicians you can vibe with?

Shit like "no substance" doesn't even feel like a real critique nowadays unless you're literally talking Billboard 200 Pop. I ran into 4 new artists that I absolutely fell in love with this weekend just by clicking around youtube and checking new releases out.

_____________________

In regards to OP,

I was born in 91, and my folks loved Baile-Funk (Brazilian Party/Dance music), with a good injection of Hip Hop when we came stateside. So I literally grew up listening to them play their music in the house, I definitely don't sit there and listen to rave and party dance music, but I can appreciate it when it does come on.

There isn't a rock/metal bone in any of my family members other than one of my distant cousins who enjoyed Incubus and Foo Fighters a lot. So it was a total shocker to my parents when I got into Thrash and Nu-Metal seemingly out of fucking nowhere.

I didn't start with rock, blues, jazz, or any of the other musical genres that laid the blueprints for modern music and in theory I probably would have hated going from my metalcore phase (KSE, AILD, etc) to just straight up blues. But I enjoyed what I heard when I gave it a shot and had a brief stint in that side of the pool, I'm not well versed in it and I definitely don't listen enough to Blues for it to matter nowadays.

I can understand where your OP is coming from, there's more technically adept musicians now for sure. The Jazz musicians you mentioned among hundreds of other equally amazing names never reached that level of acknowledgement because they were performing in the wrong camp.

Eric Clapton has immense appeal, because of the music he writes. You could play any person Tears in Heaven and it would evoke some degree amount of emotion from most people who listen to it. If you play those same people Gray Pianos Flying (Shawn Lane), your demographic shrinks infinitely.

Shawn Lane could be 1000x the player Clapton is, but to the average listener the little licks Clapton does on his songs are impressive as is. You could even get the person you're showing the songs to acknowledge that Shawn Lane is a better guitarist, but they will probably still tell you they prefer Clapton. Emotional response is a stronger pulling force than raw skill, and that will certainly never change.


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## John (Mar 29, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> And the reason many blues players have better bending and vibrato techniques is dynamics - blues leads are out in front of the music and a bad vibrato/bend is there for all to see. When you're playing 16th notes at 140 BPM you can play utter shite and no one notices/cares.



Neither one is particularly unique or given an edge to blues guys. Also for the latter point, hearing some Bach stuff butchered (which has quite a few of those 16th runs you speak of), among others, is but one of many examples showing otherwise.

Either gaffe would be noticeable and would stick out like a sore thumb for others to take notice, even for the filthy casual listening, and ostensibly call out or even poke fun at.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> What, exactly, was the point I missed? It seemed the point you were making is that "story telling" is a more important aspect than grammar or speaking ability, and I'm saying that's entirely dependent on who is listening. Which is also applicable to music.



Yes. I'm saying they are all important aspects, but what you have to say is inarguably the most important. The dictionary will never win a best writing award, but ee cummings did. 

That said... let me lay down an important premise... I'm not a TGP bluezlawyer. My guitar room is a temple built to sacrifice virgins to EVH, Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, etc. 

But and important factor - The faster you play the less important the individual notes become. Not always, but in general. You can rip atonal chromatic BS all day and it sounds good (eg, Gart Holt). Most of the guitarists who play fast sacrifice quality for quantity (eg, Rusty Cooley). They lack dynamics, phrasing, and dont know how to let anything breathe.

I'm not saying that just because you play blues you're better, or that you automatically have something worthy to say vs those that play a different genre like metal. Marty has plenty to say. 

But here are two fallacies so far tossed out here that just aren't true:

One, that all blues guitarists are just playing the same tired bends and vibrato. Untrue. That's as dumb as saying that all shred players play the same couple of scales, patterns, and notes. I've never listened to Satriani and Vai and thought they were interchangeable. If anyone thinks SRV and Hendrix are than you have more pedestrian ears than I do lol. BBs vibrato and bends are so different than Albert King or Peter Green. As are their phrasing and licks. 

Two, that it's easier to play blues than other genres like metal and shred. Again. No. Music is not a competition - the harder composition isnt by default the better one. Nor the faster one. Nick Johnston plays a lot of slow lines and he's one of the best alive IMO. He can play crazy fast. But he doesnt. He speaks quickly when he wants to. He speaks loudly, softly, etc. 

Conversely, I love Rick Graham. Great guitarist and person. Hes as close to technically perfect as it gets. What's his great song?


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## StevenC (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> No, but I also didn't get all teary listening to it, either.


You don't wonder why he bothers pausing because you know or because you think he should get to the point?


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

John said:


> Neither one is particularly unique or given an edge to blues guys. Also for the latter point, hearing some Bach stuff butchered (which has quite a few of those 16th runs you speak of), among others, is but one of many examples showing otherwise.
> 
> Either gaffe would be noticeable and would stick out like a sore thumb for others to take notice, even for the filthy casual listening, and ostensibly call out or even poke fun at.



No you're conflating arguments.

Playing metal with tons of distortion you can rip through chromaticisms, symmetrical scales/patterns, and rip sweep patterns all day. It will sound just fine.

I never mentioned playing poorly. Bad blues or shred guitarist... you still suck.


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## Dayn (Mar 29, 2021)

History is what gives it its prominence. Much of popular guitar music is derived from the blues which goes back to well before the 50s. In the 60s and 70s guitar music really took off, and continued for decades. Many of the older people in music were alive way back then when it was at its height. The blues suffuses so much popular guitar music and influenced literal generations that it's still popular today.

Personally, I'm not much of a fan. A small bit of what I play can trace its lineage to vaguely-blues-inspired music, and the standard tropes and licks in rock music bore me. I wasn't born into that influence, I didn't listen to that influence, and I certainly didn't pick up guitar because of blues-influenced music.

Finding something boring doesn't mean there isn't a very good reason for its popularity. But likewise, just because blues is so influential in guitar doesn't mean you have to like it. [Though if it's one thing I hate is the popular idea that unless you play slow and exploit simple tension and release you don't have 'soul'. Fuck that stupidity - what a dumb and arbitrary restriction on expression.]


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

This thread is and always will be pointless. 

Fanbois come out of the woodwork crying about blues guitarists. You are conflating your dislike for the genre with the talent required. You really think Greg Koch cant pick quickly or play 3 NPS runs? He was ripping some sweep arpeggios the other day in one of his Orange Room performances. Meanwhile, you ever hear Yngwie play Hendrix? Its god awful. George Lynch improvising slower rock style music live was one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard/see .

Same people that use words like brutal to describe music. YMMV


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

StevenC said:


> You don't wonder why he bothers pausing because you know or because you think he should get to the point?


 Yes, but also yes. 
But I also understand that the speech wasn’t for one person, so it was delivered in a way as to engage as many people as possible. In a different context someone addressing a group the same way would lose attention fast, imo. That’s why a preceded the original comment with the perspective thoughts.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

For those that prefer watching combine 40 yard dashes to NFL games... enjoy. To each his own. After all, track is a sport. 

If anyone actually cares about music and not guitar Olympics, PM me and I'll share what I think are some awesome players, performances, etc. Otherwise, these threads will always continue to be pointless. If you dont like blues then what is the point. It's like arguing politics... the next person who wins the argument will be the first.


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## John (Mar 29, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> No you're conflating arguments.
> 
> Playing metal with tons of distortion you can rip through chromaticisms, symmetrical scales/patterns, and rip sweep patterns all day. It will sound just fine.
> 
> I never mentioned playing poorly. Bad blues or shred guitarist... you still suck.



I can see there's some disconnect and a bit more generalizing, here. You did mention playing "utter shite" in that fashion which called for the previous response after all, so no real conflating here from anyone else talking in the thread. On their own, I don't think either of those sound fine or interesting per se unless it actually served the music is being played at that instance (be it playing slow, fast, with ample distortion, not distortion blues, metal, fusion, whatever), but that sounds like another talk for another time.

No matter, it's basically moot since either way- bad playing is horrendous regardless of style and at least you're on the same page with that much.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

Shut’er down guys, dad said we’re just jerking off and not having a conversation.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Shut’er down guys, dad said we’re just jerking off and not having a conversation.



^ this


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## mmr007 (Mar 29, 2021)

The points and counter points have morphed a bit from the OP request for clarification on inequities of guitar god status on "lesser" forms of music...but I have long maintained that if guitarists write and play to appeal to other guitarists then we are all in trouble musically whether it is metal or blues or whatever and that was always my aversion to shred. You should only shred if it facilitates the story telling in the song as not as a marker to all other guitarists that "you've arrived" ....and now top that shit!

It reminds me of weightlifting. There are ZERO women who find this attractive. The only ones looking at these magazines are weighlifters who are trying to outdo each other and have lost sight of what it means to look fit and healthy. It is just a competition that most normal people find ridiculous.






The same can be said of guitar....we can't lose sight of what it means to be musical story tellers to consumers of music...not just other guitarists who want to prove they're faster and can sweep pick any scale.

I would consider Angus Young a guitar god (based on Bon Scott era plus maybe back in black) and every song is just open E,A,D and G chords with no sweep picking and no venturing into other modes.


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## jaxadam (Mar 29, 2021)

The only blues guitar that matters is Mike Varney era Shrapnel Records.


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## 777 (Mar 29, 2021)

I got what I needed from the thread. Some new material to listen to and some good conversation. But I think its time to lock 'er up. Getting a bit hairy in here @mods


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2021)

777 said:


> I got what I needed from the thread. Some new material to listen to and some good conversation. But I think its time to lock 'er up. Getting a bit hairy in here @mods


 I think main takeaway is like what you like, don’t worry about what you don’t, and let everyone be with their tastes even if it seems silly to you. I mean, I’ve maybe heard like two guitar solos in my whole life (outside of instrumental music) that actually served a purpose in a song. ‍


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## USMarine75 (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I think main takeaway is like what you like, don’t worry about what you don’t, and let everyone be with their tastes even if it seems silly to you. I mean, I’ve maybe heard like two guitar solos in my whole life (outside of instrumental music) that actually served a purpose in a song. ‍



You need some Derek Trucks in your life.


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## StevenC (Mar 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Yes, but also yes.
> But I also understand that the speech wasn’t for one person, so it was delivered in a way as to engage as many people as possible. In a different context someone addressing a group the same way would lose attention fast, imo. That’s why a preceded the original comment with the perspective thoughts.


Don't bother reading The Lord of the Rings. They throw the ring in the volcano, the rest is all filler.

You're all but literally saying you don't want any drama, suspense or dynamics of any kind in your music, and that is just sad to me. So much of what people have to say is how they say it.


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## drgamble (Mar 29, 2021)

Stevie Ray Vaughn played 13s on a guitar tuned to E flat. Playing Scuttle Buttin with that setup is pretty difficult. A lot of blues isn't just Pentatonic scales. Most of the blues I got into, there is a lot of chromaticism and mixing and matching the blues scale with mixolydian and dorian scales. I actually find a lot of metal music easier to replicate than blues stuff. A lot of metal is straight, on the beat where a lot of blues has a lot of swing and every time the song it is a little different. Blues guitar players are revered because there playing is almost vocal. That is what people connect with, the vocal. Most people couldn't give a shit that you can play music that no one else on the planet can play. Can you sing some stuff that no one else can sing? That is why a song like "Sleep Walk" is so iconic. The song was a charting guitar instrumental that has become part of the American experience. There isn't any shred, but the melody line has a vocal quality to it that invokes an emotional response in people. That is why blues guitar players are revered. 

So you say blues uses the pentatonic scale exclusively, which isn't true by a long shot, sure sign that you haven't learned it. Anyway, that is five notes. The five most vanilla notes. So modal playing introduces 2 more notes. 2 more notes, that is what everyone is bickering about? The truth is that a lot of blues players used more than 5 notes and played around with major/minor tonalities in the same key. Blues is about the swing, the groove. Bands like Crowbar, Down, Corrosion of Conformity, Clutch, Acid Bath, all embraced this blues sensibility in metal. 

True story here. I was in a Doom/Southern Metal band called No Room for Saints. Anyway, at one of our rehearsals the whole band was just shitting on the Doors. I mean they were going all in talking about how crap they were and the lyrics were terrible and the music wasn't great. In jest, I started playing the riff for "Roadhouse Blues", but tuned to D standard. The band thought that it was phenomenal. They were like "that is some grooving shit". I wish I would have taken a picture of their faces when I told them that it was the Doors. Absolutely spectacular. 

My advice, listen to all music and try to analyze what works and what doesn't. While being proficient at your instrument is necessary it is only a small factor in your success as a musician. People are impressed by musicians that relate to them. Virtuosity is the smallest part of the puzzle and the very definition of that could be debated. Don't write off the blues as only pentatonic. Music has many layers. Expose yourself to as much as you can.


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## bigswifty (Mar 29, 2021)

Seems like a lot of SSO threads end this way about 3 or 4 pages in lately.. Or is that just the ones I'm reading? 

Anyway, I love metal and fusion, and the older I get the more I appreciate the blues as well.
So since most of what needs to be said has already been said here, I want to leave you this:



Odd-time feel, great lyrics, epic groove and rippin' solos.


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## Hollowway (Mar 29, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> this vid where he goes all eric johnson for shits and giggles




Is that all just a delay and volume swells with the volume knob?


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 29, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> Is that all just a delay and volume swells with the volume knob?



Yep, the delay doesn't seem to trail off for a long amount of time, but yeah. Pick -> roll volume knob in same motion!

Can't do that on a Keith Merrow sig


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## Harry (Mar 29, 2021)

drgamble said:


> Stevie Ray Vaughn played 13s on a guitar tuned to E flat.



His regular set was 11-58 (GHS did, or still do, make this set) with the 11 swapped for 13, NOT "13s" as in 13-56 which is what "13s" traditionally refers too. Sorry to pull you up on that one, but this is how misinformation spreads around and you end up with all kinds of mythology about stuff when people get lazy about details like this.
Those gauges were confirmed by his guitar tech (Rene Martinez) and he also stated this was changed to either an 12 or even kept the stock 11 if Stevie's hands weren't in top shape for some gigs.
Same thing seems to happen with Yngwie. His actual set is 8-11-14-22-32-46 (previously 44 or 48 depending on time period), but people say he used "8s" referring to an 8-38 set which is not correct.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 29, 2021)

a lot of blues and jazz guitarists can absolutely shred.
I like those guys.

Others are all about playing one note while making a face
I don't like those guys.

But girls really like those guys. 

and honestly is playing guitar about being as technically proficient as possible

or is it about getting laid and making money. 

there's only one right answer.


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## mongey (Mar 30, 2021)

art is an opinion. 

got to admit I'm not a super huge fan of "lead guitar "blues . but there have been many great players who operate in that framework and are amazing. 

Ill take solo , acoustic blues any day


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## chipchappy (Mar 30, 2021)

blues has a lot of history, culture, and context behind it. Whether you love it or hate it is up to you, but it doesn't change its significance.

Listen to what you like, but the blues are an important piece of music. Full stop.


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## Hollowway (Mar 30, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yep, the delay doesn't seem to trail off for a long amount of time, but yeah. Pick -> roll volume knob in same motion!
> 
> Can't do that on a Keith Merrow sig



That’s crazy! Do you know if he has his volume pots wired differently? I feel like my volume pots work as a volume from 0-3 and then as a gain knob after that. Or maybe he was just using the lower end of the range?


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## BornToLooze (Mar 30, 2021)

drgamble said:


> Stevie Ray Vaughn played 13s on a guitar tuned to E flat. Playing Scuttle Buttin with that setup is pretty difficult.



Hell, just try Scuttle Buttin' with your normal setup, it doesn't make it any easier. Stevie is Steve Vai if he would have hung out with Albert King instead of Frank Zappa.

Even as overrated as he is, this shows why Clapton is so overrated.


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## possumkiller (Mar 30, 2021)

You also can't forget that blues is what metal was built on. 

Just check out Murder Train a Comin by Dethklok. Fucking brutal.


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## BornToLooze (Mar 30, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> That’s crazy! Do you know if he has his volume pots wired differently? I feel like my volume pots work as a volume from 0-3 and then as a gain knob after that. Or maybe he was just using the lower end of the range?



I've had some guitars where my volume knob didn't work very good, but all my higher end guitars seem to be a smooth sweep from 0-10. I'll usually run them around 7-8 until a lead bit where I got to 10, and then add in a boost when I need some more over the topness.


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## possumkiller (Mar 30, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Both sides of the spectrum here are incredibly cringey and close-minded IMO.
> 
> 
> Admittedly coming from a 29 year old, but I find it detrimental to be so closed off to others or care about their opinions allowing them to curate YOUR own tastes.
> ...


I don't think your sarcasm and bullshit detector is working.


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 30, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> That’s crazy! Do you know if he has his volume pots wired differently? I feel like my volume pots work as a volume from 0-3 and then as a gain knob after that. Or maybe he was just using the lower end of the range?



I'll take a look into it, afaik he's not really turning it down all the way. But you achieve the sound by turning the volume down about halfway just as well, I used to do that pretty well and I would practice by just keeping my right hand on the volume knob fully gripped turning it and hammering on the notes with my left instead of picking with my right as well.



possumkiller said:


> I don't think your sarcasm and bullshit detector is working.



Fair enough  

But hey! You were pretty convincing


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## pahulkster (Mar 30, 2021)

SRV is the absolute definition of a guitar god


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## NoodleFace (Mar 30, 2021)

I listen to someone like Kingfish play and am blown away. I'm not a blues guy, I listen to death metal. We can both play the same speed, with the same technical skills. However his note choice, phrasing, and emotion he has while only using 5(6) notes is amazing. Plus he sings. 

I think if you can't see the skill in that you need to step back. 

It's sort of how I view marty friedman. Plenty of people can outshred marty but no one in the world even touches his note choice and phrasing. Weird japanese culture shit aside


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## xzacx (Mar 30, 2021)

NoodleFace said:


> I listen to someone like Kingfish play and am blown away. I'm not a blues guy, I listen to death metal. We can both play the same speed, with the same technical skills. However his note choice, phrasing, and emotion he has while only using 5(6) notes is amazing. Plus he sings.
> 
> I think if you can't see the skill in that you need to step back.
> 
> It's sort of how I view marty friedman. Plenty of people can outshred marty but no one in the world even touches his note choice and phrasing. Weird japanese culture shit aside



One of the things that made me appreciate blues players so much was getting better at other types of playing. Once I got pretty decent at shreddy stuff and like being able to play all my favorite death metal riffs up to speed, I realized how hard it was to actually made slower playing sound good. I can play all the notes just fine, but making them sound good? That's a whole different story.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 30, 2021)

Good video that touches on how blues differs from Western Music Theory (aka classical).


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## Hollowway (Mar 31, 2021)

You can say what you want about Joe Bonamassa’s ability as a guitarist, but there is no denying he is the KING of filling my inbox with spammy emails. Seriously - absolutely never give your email to his organization.


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## Andromalia (Mar 31, 2021)

I like heavy blues albums because they don't have the annoying tendency to have theor kick drum sound like a click. I like most of these albums for the sound, not for the technique. I don't care about Bonamassa's technicality, the dude sounds good.
With age I like the 70es type of gain more than before, and I certainly like very little of the new bands, who all sound like they were produced by Andy Sneap, who I label the worst cancer in metal production ever.


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## Matt08642 (Mar 31, 2021)

ITT: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Music genres all fall under the umbrella of "music", but they're like a bunch of distant cousins. You can't just 1 to 1 compare blues and neoclassical, or jazz and blues, or DUHJENT and eastern European folk music.

Just like everything else in life, things are nuanced and detailed even more in that nuance. Just because I study for years and years to learn how to do 1 thing on an instrument doesn't mean I can make other music with equal skill, it makes no sense. That's not to say some people are magically imbued with skill, they just got in to that section of music/worked on their skill and nuance in that genre.

Steve Vai is not a good traditional blues player, BB King is a terrible neoclassical composer I'm sure, and Yngwie is shit at writing songs in the style of Animals as Leaders - This doesn't make any of these people bad players whatsoever.

I don't roast my dentist for being unable to fix the tendinitis in my elbow just because a physiotherapist can help, even though they both fall under "medicine"

Think in more dimensions, don't just think of music as this giant obelisk.


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## michael_bolton (Mar 31, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> It reminds me of weightlifting. There are ZERO women who find this attractive. The only ones looking at these magazines are weighlifters who are trying to outdo each other and have lost sight of what it means to look fit and healthy. It is just a competition that most normal people find ridiculous.
> ....



aaaakshchyually plenty of chicks dig the old school bodybuilder look in that pic. modern bb-ers with HGH guts - maybe not so much esp in the offseason 

also, you're conflating bodybuilding which is basically lifting/dieting for the looks vs proper weightlifting (e.g. powerlifting, strongman, olympic etc) which is a sport where ppl train to be able to move more weight than the opponent.


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## mmr007 (Mar 31, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> aaaakshchyually plenty of chicks dig the old school bodybuilder look in that pic. modern bb-ers with HGH guts - maybe not so much esp in the offseason
> 
> also, you're conflating bodybuilding which is basically lifting/dieting for the looks vs proper weightlifting (e.g. powerlifting, strongman, olympic etc) which is a sport where ppl train to be able to move more weight than the opponent.


 Well quite honestly I am not conflating anything because I never claimed that bodybuilding, powerlifting and extreme strongman competitions are not without merit. They are.... and as a live and let live person I could care less if someone wants to lift until their veins are the size of catheters. My point, and maybe I did not express it properly is that many body builders lose site of what is both healthy and good looking and get a grossly distorted bodies because they get myopic and are in competition with each other and not the common man.

Similarly many guitarists want to categorize new guitarists they discover by their "fretboard prowess" and technical ability as it relates to scales quicker than anyone else. If that was really what mattered all of us would just keep watching the guy who plays flight of the bumblebee on guitar at 7000 bpm....not very musical but that is logical extreme conclusion.

It is of course just my opinion...but as a kid growing up I never cared for EVH the way so many others did because I honestly didn't give a shit about eruption. I became a HUGE fan because I finally listened to what he said musically when he wasn't soloing and I found it to be the best thing I ever heard. That is why I have come to love blues...not because its so technical or extreme or proves complete understanding of theory, but because those guitarists can instantly affect my mood with one tasteful note based on tone in their fingertips.

As far as "plenty of chicks" who dig body builders I can also point out plenty of chicks dig serial killers and even marry them on death row so....no accounting for taste I guess. JK


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## Matt08642 (Mar 31, 2021)

Oh also hot take: Anyone who says things like "Yeah I can play a Liquid Tension Experiment song on guitar flawlessly up to speed but can't bend a note for a few seconds without it sounding bad" probably sounds kinda bad when playing said songs at full speed.


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## michael_bolton (Mar 31, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> My point, and maybe I did not express it properly is that many body builders lose site of what is both healthy and good looking and get a grossly distorted bodies because they get myopic and are in competition with each other and not the common man.
> ...



this is true for any sport though. weights that are moved by competitive lifters would crush the "common man". 
pro fighter will annihilate the "common man" etc.


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## Mvotre (Mar 31, 2021)

Meh, I like Greg Howe and BB King on the same playlist. "Why not both?"


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## Zhysick (Mar 31, 2021)

It's simple:

You play the blues and want to be the best. You go to a crossroad, meet the Devil, blood oath and all that fuss so you can be "immortal"

Are we still talking about how good SRV or BB King are? Yes, we are so... there you have it. The Devil is real.

Need more proof?


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## BornToLooze (Mar 31, 2021)

Zhysick said:


> It's simple:
> 
> You play the blues and want to be the best. You go to a crossroad, meet the Devil, blood oath and all that fuss so you can be "immortal"
> 
> ...



You know, they made a documentary about that


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## Protestheriphery (Mar 31, 2021)

'But...but...know your history, and...honor the past, and...bl00z birthed _EVERY SINGLE_ genre of music, and...muh feel/soul (insert vague, nebulous phrase), and...shred is merely a display of meaningless, robotic self-indulgent noise"... /s


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## USMarine75 (Mar 31, 2021)

One of the great blues performances. His voice on the first song and his tone on the second especially the breakdown. The second song was one of the first "Boogies" that became basically the guitarist's solo.


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## Protestheriphery (Mar 31, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Idk man, I think it's just an age thing. I was born way after all the big blues guys made their impact. It was the 90s and so not cool to be into metal but I was hardcore into 80s thrash, black metal, speed metal, power metal, industrial metal. Everything but numetal. I had all these old dicks constantly trash talking the music I listened to, the music I played, and the guitars I played because they thought it was way overkill and had no substance. It wasn't anything like their blues rock gods from the 60s and 70s. So they got on my nerves and I couldn't stand them and because of them, I couldn't stand their blues rock bullshit. Fast forward 25 years and now I'm an old man that doesn't listen to anything more recent than the last SYL album unless it's some kind of retro stuff. All this new metal the kids are putting out now and calling amazing is just garbage. It has no substance. It will never be as good as the classic metal of the 80s and 90s. These kids and their stupid strandbergs with a billion strings and angled frets with some bullshit profiling amps. Spending $500 on some authentic airy and articulate passive pickups because they can't stand the EMG compression only to then play through a bunch of boosts and compressors. WTF is wrong with a decent Jackson and a Dual Rec? Nowadays when I look for something new to listen to, I go backward in time and hit up the classic rock and bluesy shit because even though I hated those assholes growing up, I feel more of a connection to it than the horseshit kids are calling music these days.


This past decade has witnessed the birth and rise of the bedroom laptop 1-person djentkid bands.


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## USMarine75 (Mar 31, 2021)

Curious how many people here listen to music outside of a specific preferred genre?

So not people that listen to a little bit of everything, but those that only listen to a narrow genre (eg 90s death metal).


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 1, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Curious how many people here listen to music outside of a specific preferred genre?
> 
> So not people that listen to a little bit of everything, but those that only listen to a narrow genre (eg 90s death metal).



I'm not sure how you qualify this, like how many people escape their comfort zone and subject themselves to other genres willingly? (IE: in personal listening time, not being invited to a concert of an opposing genre).

I feel like most people will listen to multiple genres of music, most blues players I've met also really dig Reggae and Funk. I'll also quote most interviewed *metal *musicians openly saying that they do not listen to the type of material that they compose and play/perform.

If you're asking (at an extreme) if a dude in Norway who spins Black Metal regularly will put on some edm willingly because they enjoy it.


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## StevenC (Apr 1, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> Oh also hot take: Anyone who says things like "Yeah I can play a Liquid Tension Experiment song on guitar flawlessly up to speed but can't bend a note for a few seconds without it sounding bad" probably sounds kinda bad when playing said songs at full speed.


The trick is to learn the Petrucci solos where he's trying to be David Gilmour. Like Lines in the Sand.


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## budda (Apr 1, 2021)

Ryan Knight has a "something for everyone" solo album since departing TBDM. Man loves country and chicken pickin'. Happened to be the lead guitarist in two reasonably popular metal bands to boot.


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## thebeesknees22 (Apr 1, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Curious how many people here listen to music outside of a specific preferred genre?
> 
> So not people that listen to a little bit of everything, but those that only listen to a narrow genre (eg 90s death metal).



Mmm I go in spurts. Metal/hard rock/grunge are always in the playlist, but sometimes I listen to a lot of movie and video game sound tracks, lofi, experimental, blues, classic rock, synthwave. ....mmmm... shoegaze. On a rare occasion Avante-garde stuff.

I haven't listened to much rap or hip hop since I was a kid, but every so often on a rare occasion I throw it on. And on a super rare occasion I'll listen to bluegrass/folk, dark country stuff.

Oh and bjork. Bjork is her own genre and I've listen to her a LOT a lot over the years ..actually now that I think about it, I'm going to throw on some Bjork now. lol


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## michael_bolton (Apr 1, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Curious how many people here listen to music outside of a specific preferred genre?
> 
> So not people that listen to a little bit of everything, but those that only listen to a narrow genre (eg 90s death metal).



90% of what I listen to these days is metal. not limited to one sub-genre - manowar, napalm death, trollfest in the same playlist - but I don't listen to other stuff too much. 

I'm more or less up to speed with some other genres - classical, edm, rockabilly/psychobilly - so once in a while I'd go on a kick and crank let's say Paganini or Carl Perkins for a few days or play Boris Brejcha minimalist techno stuff as a background while working - but then I'm back to metuhl.

some "weird" one offs - e.g. instrumental accordion tunes (Myron Floren ftw) or Hank Williams type deal - would defo pick something like this up at a resale shop (we're talking vinyl - local shop here has that sort of stuff pop up for like 25c once in a while) but that's bout it


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## USMarine75 (Apr 1, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm not sure how you qualify this, like how many people escape their comfort zone and subject themselves to other genres willingly? (IE: in personal listening time, not being invited to a concert of an opposing genre).
> 
> I feel like most people will listen to multiple genres of music, most blues players I've met also really dig Reggae and Funk. I'll also quote most interviewed *metal *musicians openly saying that they do not listen to the type of material that they compose and play/perform.
> 
> If you're asking (at an extreme) if a dude in Norway who spins Black Metal regularly will put on some edm willingly because they enjoy it.



Mostly curious about those that self identify as greatly preferring one genre and not really listening to anything else. 

If you think the music is garbage you're less inclined to find anything worthwhile. Eg: If you hate country you might be okay with transcending talent like Brad Paisley but you're likely to disregard/hate/ignore other less known players. 

Anywho, I was just curious if people's opinions correlate with their openness.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 1, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Mostly curious about those that self identify as greatly preferring one genre and not really listening to anything else.
> 
> If you think the music is garbage you're less inclined to find anything worthwhile. Eg: If you hate country you might be okay with transcending talent like Brad Paisley but you're likely to disregard/hate/ignore other less known players.
> 
> Anywho, I was just curious if people's opinions correlate with their openness.


somehow I doubt the guys that are hardcore entrenched in one subgenre are going to be very open minded.


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## StevenC (Apr 1, 2021)

I'd be more interested to know the favourite guitar solos of people into very fast metal.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 1, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I'd be more interested to know the favourite guitar solos of people into very fast metal.



Does Tornado of Souls count? What is very fast metal? Like Charlie Robbins or that other band that was accused of being sped up type stuff? I imagine Jason Richardson has to be at the top of people's lists.

Edit:

I checked this out for the first time in awhile. He must have some jazz influence? Because no bends (I watched two other vids) and only one fast vibrato. Then towards the end I was like ok he does have some killer vibrato... nope... that was Rick Graham lol.


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## StevenC (Apr 1, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Does Tornado of Souls count? What is very fast metal? Like Charlie Robbins or that other band that was accused of being sped up type stuff? I imagine Jason Richardson has to be at the top of people's lists.


Yeah, I want to know if people who only listen to the fastest and most brutal only like straight 16th note solos.


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## mmr007 (Apr 1, 2021)

Is it ok I use this opportunity to say I listen to everything...every genre of global music...but I fucking hate country.

Also even though metal is by far my favorite genre of music most types of metal I actually cannot stand...I just realized I am surprisingly limited in what I will listen to in my favorite genre. But if I find music I like from a band I don't like I will stay open minded. For example for the longest time I couldn't stand or "get" Behemoth....and I still don't care for that type of metal or them but I have 5 of their songs on my ipod because despite that not being my taste in music those 5 are damn cool songs. Oh, did I mention I hate country?

I don't know about speed comparisons but my top 5 favorite solos are most likely all Randy Rhoads


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 1, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Does Tornado of Souls count? What is very fast metal? Like Charlie Robbins or that other band that was accused of being sped up type stuff? I imagine Jason Richardson has to be at the top of people's lists.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I checked this out for the first time in awhile. He must have some jazz influence? Because no bends (I watched two other vids) and only one fast vibrato. Then towards the end I was like ok he does have some killer vibrato... nope... that was Rick Graham lol.



Listen to his phrasing and look at his technique. Not just bends or vibrato, but little details like how he exits a phrase about a minute in. I don't hear an ounce of jazz in that; my immediate impression was that he'd played violin prior to guitar. If not that, maybe piano.

Sure enough, he'd played both:


> Before I started playing guitar, the order of instruments I learned was piano, drums, violin, and then finally, guitar came into the picture.


https://heavyocity.com/artist/jason-richardson-all-that-remains/

e: Also highly recommend that Ryan Knight album budda mentioned earlier. Very tasty playing, and a fun take on a variety of styles very different from what most people here probably know him for.
https://ryanknightguitar.bandcamp.com/album/sunbelt-bliss


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## USMarine75 (Apr 1, 2021)

InfinityCollision said:


> Listen to his phrasing and look at his technique. Not just bends or vibrato, but little details like how he exits a phrase about a minute in. I don't hear an ounce of jazz in that; my immediate impression was that he'd played violin prior to guitar. If not that, maybe piano.
> 
> Sure enough, he'd played both:
> 
> ...



I'll def have to check out I love finding new music. I'm always super late so when everyone else is sick of a band I'm just discovering them lol.


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## JSanta (Apr 1, 2021)

If anyone ever asks me about why blues, or why blues guitarists, I just go back to this song every time. For me, always back to Gary Moore.


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## works0fheart (Apr 1, 2021)

I don't dislike blues and I can respect the ability of greats like SRV and the like, but I don't usually put it on of my own free will. That being said though, every generation is guilty of trash talking the following generation's taste in music. Hell, I'm guilty of it. I grew up on Metallica and the 80's trash bands and when nu-metal came about in the 2000's I hated it. I'm still not a fan of it really, but I have a different take on it now. The older I've gotten the more open I've become to what other people like when it comes to music. 

Granted I don't like it, I've kind of found that I just try to stay neutral on the subject because the moment I mention metal bands the other person is put off by the conversation and I've really gained nothing at all by even trying to relate. People take music almost as seriously as religion or politics sometimes and just by having heard it or mention of it they're offended sometimes. I've been guilty of it too even now hearing things like Cardi B or whatever, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

What I will say that's very true that someone else mentioned in the thread early on is the douchyness of some of the older generations when it comes to music that isn't the blues standard. I can pretty well remember to this day going into music stores and picking up a guitar playing what I like to play, which at the time was just shreddy, sweepy, melodeath stuff. I remember being close enough to the front desk to hear a customer going "Oh wow, that sounds really cool, I wish I could do that" as he's talking to the owner who then just said "I hate stuff like that. There's no soul, no feeling"

Really, it's just the people that say stuff like that; the whole "No SoUL nO FeELiNg" thing that really gets me and it honestly does tend to be these blues aficionado's that tend to spout this the most.

While I do get the feeling of being a bit left behind by the times with my taste in music, I think it's wrong to shame a musician for trying to learn something they're passionate about, even if it is something that most people don't like. Just because someone is using a different avenue of expression than you it's not fair to say that it's uninspired or "emotionless" just because it's not your cup of tea. 

As the other person said too, this type of thing had caused me to not like blues initially. I think that happens to a lot of young musicians unfortunately. They get shit on by the older generation and having their music compared to what they listen to and the younger player ends up being bitter against that type of music.

_*TL;DR - People are put off by the "MUH EMOTION" crowd of blues fans and don't give it a fair chance.*_


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 1, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I'd be more interested to know the favourite guitar solos of people into very fast metal.



Man that's such a hard question to even fathom,

 @ 2:11 
 @ 1:54


 @ 2:25

I'm trying not to reach for my influences, but throwing a mix of solos from metal source material. Some of those are definitely very fast slews, but they're still incredibly descriptive with their note choice and inflections.


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## profwoot (Apr 2, 2021)

I guess I'm in the "blues has value" faction as we've drawn the battle lines, but I mostly listen to metal, and my favorite metal solos tend to be melodic and well-phrased -- Jake's solo in It's Only Smiles, Misha's 2nd solo in Absolomb, JP's solo in Lines in the Sand, that sort of thing.

Not that these metal solos are unusual in having something to say; let's not forget that blues being all whole note bends and metal being all straight 16th scales are both small-minded stereotypes.

Edit: Ok since I mentioned solos by Jake and Misha I'll also mention Mrak's solo in Reptile too. It's not as melodic as I usually go for but it's so perfect in telling that part of the song's story, at least as I interpret the lyrics. I admire it immensely. I'll stop there, as I could say a lot about that song and how its instrumentation and lyrics intertwine to tell a story in an unparalleled way (relative to my necessarily limited experience).

Folks don't seem that interested in lyrics anymore though. I had tons of fun in the 90s hanging out on the Ytsejam mailing list discussing Dream Theater song meanings but I don't know if I've seen a single thread on SSO like that. So it goes.


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## /wrists (Apr 2, 2021)

I don't really listen to bloos nor do I really care for playing the music, but I think it's still important to keep a relatively open mind to all music as they often times cross contaminate.



> Before the fire starts.. I know a lot of big names are in their own right great guitar players. My argument is AFAIK Bonamasa/Clapton/King/SRV are all considered gods for playing some blues. Which all boils down to the same thing for my ears. Which is pentatonic over a 12 bar blues. I want to know what people get out of listening to whole concerts of that.
> 
> The same can be said of drop tuned metal albums all being in (Lowest note)Minor.
> 
> Before you comment, please know that I am posting this thread out of a genuine want for education, not to shit on a style of music. I genuinely don't understand what the craze is and want to hear your opinions.



Think the problem with how you're posting is you're oversimplifying. If you're not listening to the intricacies or trying to find the intricacies of music, then it becomes very easy to group one genre into the some generic style. It doesn't have to stop at blues. You can generalize classic rock, progressive metal, metalcore, death metal, melodic death metal, punk, or any genre. I think it's okay to find music that doesn't speak to you and not understand it, for sure. The artists you spoke about created music that either 1.) speak to their audience and make them feel something or 2.) demonstrate some sort of proficiency in an area of music theory. That also holds true to a lot of music. It's just preference. Also, being the first ones or pioneering a genre definitely deserves credit of its own. 

Additionally, exposure to pieces in this genre (like that of what people have posted) can help you find the nuances of what makes them great to other people.


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## /wrists (Apr 2, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I'd be more interested to know the favourite guitar solos of people into very fast metal.



2:50 and on, but the whole song is good, but I like most of their stuff so I'm biased.


Polyphia is also a crowd pleaser.


And who can forget Andy?


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## USMarine75 (Apr 2, 2021)

Speaking of Tornado of Souls... this popped up in my feed:


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 2, 2021)

Holy fucking phrasing batman, that's mind boggling. Can't believe I never saw his take on ToS, great find man.


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## BigViolin (Apr 2, 2021)

Speechless.


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## BornToLooze (Apr 3, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> Is it ok I use this opportunity to say I listen to everything...every genre of global music...but I fucking hate country.



My inner me that grew up on country, western swing, and bluegrass wants so say




But I know trying to explain the differences is like trying to tell pop fans the differences in metal genres since it's all screamo. I've heard enough country that as much as I love it, I also totally get why people hate it.

But, if you can put your disposition for country aside, can you not admit this is a great solo, regardless of whether you like or dislike that genre?


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## ManOnTheEdge (Apr 3, 2021)

Slight tangent, but would recommend the Glen Campbell doc “I’ll be me”.


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## Edika (Apr 3, 2021)

It's easy to get stuck on a music genre and not branch out too much. As people have said here, music is abou the emotional response it provides and if a genre of music speaks to you for whatever reason then you'll search out more of the same or similar stuff. Sometimes we get too far into it and training our neural networks to respond to one kind of music is a lot more difficult to break free from that and search something completely new.

From what I see a lot of people may have influences from a young age but the emotion turmoil of teenage years does tend to form music tastes in addition to personality and experiences. I always liked pop as a kid and was surrounded by it in the 80's. For some reason I preferred the more pop-rock songs but I liked all the pop songs I listened to. Then I heard Metalica, Iron Maiden and Guns and Roses for the first time around 12-13 and it was a revelation! My mom loved classical music and played some but I was never much of a fan. Then there was the local music which I never responded to, even as a small child.

I love speedy music, the more I listen to it the more I crave it and it's difficult to listen to slower music. That was certainly the case when I was younger. If a Death or Thrash record had slow songs I'd skip them, even if they were great songs. But as I grow older, I find that I can take the time to appreciate more genres of music and as my understanding of music grows I can appreciate other nuances of music and not only speed. Plus my motto has been that if I don't get a song or an artist, I'm probably not in the mindframe to appreciate it and should try at a later time. 

Case in point, everyone loves The Beatles. I never understood the appeal. They just seemed uninteresting. But just because I don't get it doesn't mean the music is not worthwhile. I listened to Blues for a period of time. I actually forced myself to only listen to Blues and not Metal as I was getting bored of Metal at that point. It was difficult in the beginning but slowly I started to appreciate the genre more as my brain was getting more familiar with the nuances of each artist.


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## High Plains Drifter (Apr 3, 2021)

What I've discovered about myself is that no music "sucks" or is "awesome". Music is art and if it impacts me in some way then it's done it's job. I used to cringe at my Dad's country music and laugh at his 50's jukebox stuff. Now I appreciate many of those songs and musicians. There were bands and genres that I swore I'd never willingly listen to... Now I do. Life is a journey and so is music. I'm old enough now to realize that no matter how set in my ways I thought I'd always be... I was wrong. Whether a song puts me into a trance or gets my body moving, the least important thing about it is it's genre.


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## mmr007 (Apr 3, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> My inner me that grew up on country, western swing, and bluegrass wants so say
> 
> View attachment 92115
> 
> ...


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## efiltsohg (Apr 4, 2021)

anybody who doesn't like country needs to listen to Townes Van Zandt


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## High Plains Drifter (Apr 4, 2021)

efiltsohg said:


> anybody who doesn't like country needs to listen to Townes Van Zandt



I only met Townes once or twice back in the late 80's/ early 90's down at The Old Quarter Acoustic Cafe ( Galveston Texas). I lived just a few blocks from the cafe. Towne's song 'Rex's Blues" was written about a dear friend of mine, Rex ( Wrecks) Bell... the owner of the Old Quarter. I played with Wrecks many times and hung out at his beach house frequently but I unfortunately never had the opportunity to jam with Townes.


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## crazyprofessor (Apr 5, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Discounting Joe Bonamassa is a huge mistake, and you've clearly never really listened to his music.. While he primarily plays blues, the dude has chops for days. He's an absolute monster on guitar. All of the other guys you mentioned are monster players too, and it's beyond reductive to say they just sit in the pentatonic boxes. That's like saying Yngwie can only play with harmonic minor riffs or Jeff Loomis can only use diminished licks lol
> 
> this vid where he goes all eric johnson for shits and giggles
> 
> ...




That Gale - Bonamassa jam was absolutely epic. Wow. That made me happier than almost any Djenty crap I can think of.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 5, 2021)




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## USMarine75 (Apr 5, 2021)

One of the great recordings of all time. 

I've said it before... but I wish my wife looked at me the way these two look at each other


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## Poul Winther Knudsen (Apr 6, 2021)

KailM said:


> I saw BB King one time. There _was_ something magical about that man’s playing, and his overall presence in the room. That’s about all I can say.


The magic of the mosquito vibrato......


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## Emperoff (Apr 6, 2021)

It's ok to someone not understand what the fuss of blues is all about. All I can say is that there's more to it than it seems.

There are lessons around by Tony Waka (Gloria Gaynor's guitarist) teaching the fundamentals of blues that can change more than one people's mind.

It's not about what you play it, but about how ypu play it. And I wish I could play those boring pentatonic licks like those people. Because if I could, I wouldn't need anything else.

My dad likes Gary Moore and David Gilmour, but I'm sure he wouldn't give a damn about Guthrie Govan. The fact that blues can say so much with so little makes it way more accessible to non-guitarist people.


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## Patxi (Apr 6, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Idk man, I think it's just an age thing. I was born way after all the big blues guys made their impact. It was the 90s and so not cool to be into metal but I was hardcore into 80s thrash, black metal, speed metal, power metal, industrial metal. Everything but numetal. I had all these old dicks constantly trash talking the music I listened to, the music I played, and the guitars I played because they thought it was way overkill and had no substance. It wasn't anything like their blues rock gods from the 60s and 70s. So they got on my nerves and I couldn't stand them and because of them, I couldn't stand their blues rock bullshit. Fast forward 25 years and now I'm an old man that doesn't listen to anything more recent than the last SYL album unless it's some kind of retro stuff. All this new metal the kids are putting out now and calling amazing is just garbage. It has no substance. It will never be as good as the classic metal of the 80s and 90s. These kids and their stupid strandbergs with a billion strings and angled frets with some bullshit profiling amps. Spending $500 on some authentic airy and articulate passive pickups because they can't stand the EMG compression only to then play through a bunch of boosts and compressors. WTF is wrong with a decent Jackson and a Dual Rec? Nowadays when I look for something new to listen to, I go backward in time and hit up the classic rock and bluesy shit because even though I hated those assholes growing up, I feel more of a connection to it than the horseshit kids are calling music these days.



Don't you feel like the people that were talking shit about your tastes and guitars on the 90's? 

I've always thought that this is one of the biggest signs of getting old...


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## USMarine75 (Apr 6, 2021)

Patxi said:


> Don't you feel like the people that were talking shit about your tastes and guitars on the 90's?
> 
> I've always thought that this is one of the biggest signs of getting old...



Ah, that age old boondoggle....

Those that dont know shit about shit vs those that just want you to get off their lawn.


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## yan12 (Apr 6, 2021)

I built a business around this during the covid pandemic. It's called The Music Room located on Cape Cod, Mass.
My lifelong friend and I came up with the concept, and it's really about the history of rock and roll from a USA perspective, with a reverence to guitar in particular. We are both connected within the industry, and have lots of signed artifacts there, as well as lots of unique elements. It is a wine bar, music fine art gallery, studio...live stage and venue. What does this have to do with this thread, I will tell you.

One partner we have is Paul Nelson...incredible blues player that played with and managed Johnny Winter. Also an old school metal head. He studied at Berklee, played Donnington as a metal head, moved into fusion, then blues. He did not start with the blues and we have had many discussions about why blues is important. The discussion is too wide but I will drill down on the main point. 

All modern guitar is an offshoot of the blues. Johnny Winter is the catalyst and ironically having Paul involved with us answered many questions I had. A longtime fan of JW, Paul verified much of what I thought but could not find in print. Here comes some kid and his brother from Miss. and TX, albinos....playing a black man's music in the 50's. As outcasts, they sat in with all black bands during the height of racial tension in this country. The blues giants like BB and Muddy said he was legit, and the rest is history. He took that music and started shredding it all over the place and by the 60's and into the 70's he was legend...and for good reason. When Hendrix plays bass for you, you must have something going on.


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## yan12 (Apr 6, 2021)

So blues and then jazz and then rock. Understanding the theory is one thing, but letting music breathe is something mostly found in real blues. Old school, and there are subgenres there as well, but there is a lot of blues music out there. But to think JW took all the super slow, grinding blues and spiced them up in a classy way.... a way that didn't make fun of traditional blues but took it to another level with slide and picking, is quite the feat. He inspired Jimi, then you have the Becks and Clapton, VH....etc. Johnny had Plant and Page kneeling at his feet in one photo. Those guys made Zep out of redoing old blues tunes that were not protected by copyright and the make no bones about it. All these blues guys of today realize his legacy but few folks know what he did for guitar playing.

The blues resurgence is also big now due to the fact that WOMEN are getting lots of press. We just had Ana Popovic play our place with a live stream. And there are so many more women playing and being accepted as more main stream. It has been stated that blues is accessible for most folks in terms of feeling the changes, and it is very primal that way. Why it attracts guitar players IMHO is if you have a basic chord structure and 5 notes to play with, the interpretation is endless...throw in some other color notes and now you have a real canvas to paint on. It's not tight like metal, you can be behind the beat, in front, playing through changes and really messing with the 3rd and imparting all sorts of sonic nods to other music.

So to me, all current rock, metal, pop, funk, country...the guitar playing piece of it owes much to the world of blues. All the huge hooks come from the resolution with the music itself. Faster, slower, it doesn't matter. What used to be a man and a guitar turned into a behemoth of an industry. So much more to say but off to work!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 6, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> SS.Org's Irish Guy should listen to Rory Gallagher and get back to us.


Gary Moore and Johnny Winter would be better.


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## nightlight (Apr 6, 2021)

I've often wondered about it myself but then it dawned on me. 

Have you seen alll those posers playing sweep solos and whatnot and then trying to make guitar faces?

What are they vocalising? Bllll blllllll blllll

Now think of a blues guitarist playing one note over and over and over again with expression. And he's making a face too, but it looks like a face that's been down so very damn long that it looks like up to me. 

The feelz, boys. Them blues.


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## Choop (Apr 6, 2021)

I like and respect the blues fine historically and as a legitimate genre and style of play, but I used to belong to another guitar forum when I was much younger, and from what I remember there was a big culture of pretentious snobbery from all the players there who were "blues guys" that left a bad impression on me. Kind of the same feeling as when I went to a local music store while in college and had the older blues dudes mock me for wanting to buy a seven string guitar. .-.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 6, 2021)

Choop said:


> I like and respect the blues fine historically and as a legitimate genre and style of play, but I used to belong to another guitar forum when I was much younger, and from what I remember there was a big culture of pretentious snobbery from all the players there who were "blues guys" that left a bad impression on me. Kind of the same feeling as when I went to a local music store while in college and had the older blues dudes mock me for wanting to buy a seven string guitar. .-.


In fairness, they have been robbed, disrespected, and denigrated aside from a few select guys. For every SRV, KWS, Hendrix, three Kings, etc., there is 100 that were treated like shit, robbed by musicians and record companies, stuff like that. Meanwhile, the industry pumps up people that couldn't string together a melody with written instructions, yet make millions. I'm not a huge fan of the blues, but I respect it.


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## Themistocles (Apr 6, 2021)

boomer white guys appropriating genres and applauding themselves...


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## Choop (Apr 6, 2021)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> In fairness, they have been robbed, disrespected, and denigrated aside from a few select guys. For every SRV, KWS, Hendrix, three Kings, etc., there is 100 that were treated like shit, robbed by musicians and record companies, stuff like that. Meanwhile, the industry pumps up people that couldn't string together a melody with written instructions, yet make millions. I'm not a huge fan of the blues, but I respect it.



Yeah :C the music industry in general is tough -- metal genres also deal with issues regarding acceptance and success because no matter how popular, they are still considered fringe/niche (unless I guess you are Metallica maybe).


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## Demiurge (Apr 6, 2021)

Choop said:


> I like and respect the blues fine historically and as a legitimate genre and style of play, but I used to belong to another guitar forum when I was much younger, and from what I remember there was a big culture of pretentious snobbery from all the players there who were "blues guys" that left a bad impression on me. Kind of the same feeling as when I went to a local music store while in college and had the older blues dudes mock me for wanting to buy a seven string guitar. .-.



Unfortunately, if music was judged only by online interactions with its staunchest fans, we'd probably all rather listen stamp-collecting podcasts. Hell, I'm still convinced from a side-career of helping my older coworkers with computer stuff constantly that the only folks from the "boomer" generation who bothered to learn how to use computers early on were those who needed the world to know that their Fender was a gazillion times better than everybody's Ibanez. 

That said, it's kind of rich on a metal/shred-centric forum to give the blues guys a hard time over snobbery because I think the equivalent worst of 'us' laps them in so many ways: looking down noses at other genres, gatekeeping subgenres, chasing-off young players, fawning over ludicrously rare/expensive gear, unhealthy hero worship, etc. I mean, even this thread wasn't really created in good faith, with the OP essentially asking, "Why does this lower form of music receive prominence that I have prejudged to be undeserved?" like this is fuckin' Quora.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 6, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> Unfortunately, if music was judged only by online interactions with its staunchest fans, we'd probably all rather listen stamp-collecting podcasts. Hell, I'm still convinced from a side-career of helping my older coworkers with computer stuff constantly that the only folks from the "boomer" generation who bothered to learn how to use computers early on were those who needed the world to know that their Fender was a gazillion times better than everybody's Ibanez.
> 
> That said, it's kind of rich on a metal/shred-centric forum to give the blues guys a hard time over snobbery because I think the equivalent worst of 'us' in so many ways: looking down noses at other genres, gatekeeping subgenres, chasing-off young players, fawning over ludicrously rare/expensive gear, unhealthy hero worship, etc. I mean, even this thread wasn't really created in good faith, with the OP essentially asking, "Why does this lower form of music receive prominence that I have prejudged to be undeserved?" like this is fuckin' Quora.


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## TheRealMikeD (Apr 6, 2021)

To me, the blues is like soccer. It’s a lot of fun to play but watching someone else play it puts me right to sleep.


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## jaxadam (Apr 6, 2021)

Not traditional blues per se, but I feel like this might not be a bad place to post this.


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## Choop (Apr 7, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> That said, it's kind of rich on a metal/shred-centric forum to give the blues guys a hard time over snobbery because I think the equivalent worst of 'us' laps them in so many ways.



Sounds like something one of them BLUES guys would say.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 7, 2021)

Choop said:


> Sounds like something one of them BLUES guys would say.


There is quite a bit of elitist bullshit among metal and shred dudes.


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## Choop (Apr 7, 2021)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> There is quite a bit of elitist bullshit among metal and shred dudes.



Hah yeah, I was just jokin'. I'm not even sure why I made my original reply in this thread since it wasn't really relevant to the OP.


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## Randy (Apr 7, 2021)

The blues was invented so that I could watch Samantha Fish play it, hallelujah!


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## Tonefinder (Apr 7, 2021)

thebeesknees22 said:


> Blues a/QUOTE]





thebeesknees22 said:


> Add a little swing into your music and suddenly you have a rockin' groove.


Shit, once THIS crowd (metal) adds that bit of swing, they're clear back to Van Halen (I never left)


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 7, 2021)

If you use YouTube, you can slow it down, and find that quite a few songs in Van Halen's catalog have that swingin' 8th feel. Makes them suddenly make sense. Some of those swingin' 8th songs are played at insane tempos.


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## bostjan (Apr 7, 2021)

I love the blues. It's what I played when I was just starting out. The guitar techniques of blues players in the 20's through to the 60's pushed the envelope more than any other genre, but those songs were cool with or without guitar techniques showcased.

The blues was never the popular genre, either, so why the hate? It's not like any of those artists made as much money from their music as the rock groups who covered those songs.


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## Wildebeest (Apr 7, 2021)

I come to this thread to when I want to get migraines


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## budda (Apr 7, 2021)

Wildebeest said:


> I come to this thread to when I want to get migraines



Does it work?


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## InCasinoOut (Apr 7, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> Hell, I'm still convinced from a side-career of helping my older coworkers with computer stuff constantly that the only folks from the "boomer" generation who bothered to learn how to use computers early on were those who needed the world to know that their Fender was a gazillion times better than everybody's Ibanez.


LOL. I think you're onto something there.


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## eclecto-acoustic (Apr 7, 2021)

A lot of good insight shared already, particularly regarding the history of the genre and some of its key popular players.

I've often found that experiencing the roots of a genre helps me to appreciate its modern incarnations much more. Sometimes you find artists who are very much students of these seminal moments, and while they tend to hew close to the line of tradition, they can't help but have a modern inflection of some kind. Those ones don't necessarily evolve the art form as much, but strike a great balance between purity and originality.

Frankly, everyone can have preferences and that's fine; the rub is when someone weaponizes their ignorance about a genre. I've been "accused" of using blues licks when I was playing anything but, or country by way of playing a G chord. Not all blues is pentatonic wankery, just like not all metal is 200bpm double kicks and drop tuned chugging. I am a fan of both macro genres and dislike both of those elements when abused.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 7, 2021)

Hey guess what came in the mail today...







That's right. My Joe Bonamassa signature guitar. 

It's real... and its spectacular.


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## StevenC (Apr 8, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Hey guess what came in the mail today...
> 
> View attachment 92250
> View attachment 92251
> ...


The fretless wonder


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## BornToLooze (Apr 8, 2021)

StevenC said:


> The fretless wonder



I have a Kalamazoo Gibson that's a fretless wonder. Even as someone who's always preferred smaller vintage style frets, its crazy that the frets are so small I have to look when I slide to a note because I can barely feel the frets.


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## JohnIce (Apr 10, 2021)

Something I've noticed about the bloos when I started doing more session/hired gun gigs is that to most people who are not guitarists, blues based phrasing is just "good guitar". It's typically what artists and producers are really after when they hire a guitarist. Especially in solos. They may want more EVH or more John Mayer, but if you steer too far into the more rigid/quantized progressive playing a lot of metalheads like, people start to think you just lack taste. To them it's not creative or innovative, it's just... bad.

To me, blues is a celebration of all the things that are unique to the guitar. Things that can't be done on a midi keyboard. That makes it "exclusive" and makes other musicians thirst for it because they can't do it themselves. So if you show up and play something that sounds like it was programmed in midi, people get disappointed, even if you have Tosin level chops.

At best they might ghasp and say: "Duuude! That is siiick! But... um... well it's not really at all what we were going for though. Can you make it more, you know, old school I guess?"


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## USMarine75 (Apr 10, 2021)

JohnIce said:


> Something I've noticed about the bloos when I started doing more session/hired gun gigs is that to most people who are not guitarists, blues based phrasing is just "good guitar". It's typically what artists and producers are really after when they hire a guitarist. Especially in solos. They may want more EVH or more John Mayer, but if you steer too far into the more rigid/quantized progressive playing a lot of metalheads like, people start to think you just lack taste. To them it's not creative or innovative, it's just... bad.
> 
> To me, blues is a celebration of all the things that are unique to the guitar. Things that can't be done on a midi keyboard. That makes it "exclusive" and makes other musicians thirst for it because they can't do it themselves. So if you show up and play something that sounds like it was programmed in midi, people get disappointed, even if you have Tosin level chops.
> 
> At best they might ghasp and say: "Duuude! That is siiick! But... um... well it's not really at all what we were going for though. Can you make it more, you know, old school I guess?"



The problem is a lot of the "better" stuff is guitar for guitarists. Nonguitarists want something that is listenable, memorable, melodic, etc. Go to a Satriani, Gilbert, etc type show... nearly everyone in the crowd is a guitarist (or guitarist-adjacent).


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## nedheftyfunk (Apr 11, 2021)

This conversation reminds me of Ron Thai's "I can't play the blues":




Man, I wish I couldn't play the blues the way Bumblefoot can't play the blues.


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## michael_bolton (Apr 11, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> The problem is a lot of the "better" stuff is guitar for guitarists. Nonguitarists want something that is listenable, memorable, melodic, etc. Go to a Satriani, Gilbert, etc type show... nearly everyone in the crowd is a guitarist (or guitarist-adjacent).



there's defo some of that, but then there are also bands that play relatively simple music but have elite world class shredders in the band - sure ppl don't go to a Megadeth show specifically for Kiko (or Marty back in the days) - on his own he has zero pull compared to the band - on the flip side though w/out his skills he won't be a fit there. 

the larger "issue" (quotes because it's not necessarily a bad thing per se) is genres that are pushing the limit of technicality/complexity with any instrument are very rarely big with the general population. this goes for bebop and tech death alike. 

as a side note - OSDM is one of my fav genres, there's a bit of a resurgence going on with new bands popping up on a regular - some are trying to pull it off without solos - for me personally without proper solos it's just not the same which is why e.g. I never got into Asphyx and the like. interesting thing here is this is a pretty common sentiment among the non-guitar playing OSDM fan base as well. tlrd here is to each it's own I guess


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## USMarine75 (Apr 11, 2021)

nedheftyfunk said:


> This conversation reminds me of Ron Thai's "I can't play the blues":
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bumblefoot is legit. Love him in both GnR and Sons of Apollo.


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## JohnIce (Apr 12, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> The problem is a lot of the "better" stuff is guitar for guitarists. Nonguitarists want something that is listenable, memorable, melodic, etc. Go to a Satriani, Gilbert, etc type show... nearly everyone in the crowd is a guitarist (or guitarist-adjacent).



Bsides that, I think a lot of the reason why "normal" people like guitar is that it is rattling, humming and screechy in a cool way, and a bit off in intonation. When everything on the radio is just samples and midi, a real guitar becomes refreshing. But only if it actually sounds live and human, if it's too clean and precise people don't vibe with it as much.

This isn't really an argument for blues specifically though, more that the sort of hipshooting and somewhat sloppy style of Hendrix, Joe Perry, Slash etc. is generally a lot more appealing to the masses than the Petruccis of the world.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 12, 2021)

JohnIce said:


> Bsides that, I think a lot of the reason why "normal" people like guitar is that it is rattling, humming and screechy in a cool way, and a bit off in intonation. When everything on the radio is just samples and midi, a real guitar becomes refreshing. But only if it actually sounds live and human, if it's too clean and precise people don't vibe with it as much.
> 
> This isn't really an argument for blues specifically though, more that the sort of hipshooting and somewhat sloppy style of Hendrix, Joe Perry, Slash etc. is generally a lot more appealing to the masses than the Petruccis of the world.



Well to be fair Hendrix wasnt always sloppy. Only when he was high. So... yeah never mind all the time .

But yeah as you said it's real music. Not overly processed, quantized, autotuned, and cut/pasted. I love Born of Osiris but I love it for what it is.

And besides those few that might be deemed sloppy, guys like Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton, Josh Smith, Greg Koch, Seth Rosenbloom, Ariel Posen, Joey Landreth, SRV, Derek Trucks, etc are as precise as it gets.



But again... music is subjective... so if you prefer Old School Thrash that's okay too lol.


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## Themistocles (Apr 14, 2021)

eclecto-acoustic said:


> A lot of good insight shared already, particularly regarding the history of the genre and some of its key popular players.
> 
> I've often found that experiencing the roots of a genre helps me to appreciate its modern incarnations much more. Sometimes you find artists who are very much students of these seminal moments, and while they tend to hew close to the line of tradition, they can't help but have a modern inflection of some kind. Those ones don't necessarily evolve the art form as much, but strike a great balance between purity and originality.
> 
> Frankly, everyone can have preferences and that's fine; the rub is when someone weaponizes their ignorance about a genre. I've been "accused" of using blues licks when I was playing anything but, or country by way of playing a G chord. Not all blues is pentatonic wankery, just like not all metal is 200bpm double kicks and drop tuned chugging. I am a fan of both macro genres and dislike both of those elements when abused.



well said... everyone cant be original or even proficient but they exist in every genre... as do wankers. I appreciate anyone who strives and especially those who strive to appreciate whatever they encounter. That said part of having a voice or personality of any kind is finding out what you just cant stomach. Dont judge genres by anything but its paragons... its easy to blame the fans and wannabes but it isnt fair. (though natural)


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## Themistocles (Apr 14, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Well to be fair Hendrix wasnt always sloppy. Only when he was high. So... yeah never mind all the time .
> 
> But yeah as you said it's real music. Not overly processed, quantized, autotuned, and cut/pasted. I love Born of Osiris but I love it for what it is.
> 
> ...



I played the testament video and Roy Buchanan one at the same time... it was kinda cool!


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## USMarine75 (Apr 14, 2021)

Themistocles said:


> I played the testament video and Roy Buchanan one at the same time... it was kinda cool!



Hey why not. Skolnick doesnt listen to metal either... Roy would have killed in Testament. His rig was Tele through a Fender Vibrolux amp with every knob dimed. He controlled his overdrive with his guitar vol and tone knobs.


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## MFB (Apr 14, 2021)

I'm just glad of all the Testament songs you could have picked, you picked their best one of all.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 14, 2021)

MFB said:


> I'm just glad of all the Testament songs you could have picked, you picked their best one of all.



It was that or everything from Practice What You Preach. But that is my all time fav song of theirs too.


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