# Dudeskins Headless FF 8 string/ First guitar build



## dudeskin (Oct 5, 2013)

Hi all.
i thought i may aswell start a thread now just to keep me up to date with where i have got to and to help me learn from the inevitable mistakes i will make.

So, 
I have a Boden 8 from strandberg guitarworks and it is by far the best guitar i have ever played. the main thing i love about it is the lower half of the body. it really fits me and my playing style. you can move it around in 3 very good positions when your sat and its mega comfortable.

so, my build will have the lower half of the Boden body shape (dont worry, i asked Ola for his permission to use his design. no matter how loosely i was going to use it, i asked anyway to make sure he was happy) or very close to it.

here are rough Specs that i have thought about the past few days.

8 string headless neckthrough semi-ergo design
Scale length: 30- 28 (not nailed down yet but definitely longer than 28)
Body: Ash either black or red stained
Neck:20" radius. Rosewood and Rosewood fretboard. back of neck undecided Endurneck?
Pickup: Single Bridge. Either slanted Lundgren M8 or slanted BKP Aftermath
Controls: volume pot only (i might put a small killswitch later though)
Hardware: Technologyformusicians single bridges x 8 in black.
Head piece: Custom Headpiece from either ally or brass. making it myself.

any other specs i cant remember haha.

here is the rough idea that ive been playing with...




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or




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ive ordered a few bits from stewmac so il post pics when i get them in a few weeks.
for now i have these....



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as for the scale length. i want to go for something the Boden doesnt do. no point in having 2 guitars that are too similar (plus the quality of the construction will be harder to compare hahah)
i think i want to go for 30 inch scale for the bass side, but i havent decided on the treble side, or where my perpendicular fret will be so thats all up in the air at the moment.
i got bored at work and found a bit of MDF so i printed off 30 to 28 with the perpendicular fret at 0.4 just to see what it was like...




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not worth putting that pic up, but for laughs i thought i would 

anywho, ill keep this up to date as and when its worth it/i have questions.

Cheers dudes

Joe


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## BlackMastodon (Oct 5, 2013)

Nice design! I was actually thinking of doing a single-cut Strandberg shape for my Home Depot build, too.  Can't wait to see this.


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## dudeskin (Oct 12, 2013)

not much to update at the moment, but im getting bits in.





i work with metal at work, and some machines, so i really want to do something a bit different. got a few ideas in my head but nothing worth sharing just yet.

im in talks with a guy about some wood .
so hopefully i can get this moving soon ish.
i cant wait to start making it rather than sucking my bank dry.


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## CD1221 (Oct 13, 2013)

Cool design adaptation. I know it's a first build, but thought about a semi hollow?


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## Stereordinary (Oct 13, 2013)

I love how your first build is a fanned-fret eight-string. That's a lot more balls than I had when I did my first build!


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## Hollowway (Oct 13, 2013)

Good for you. This is about how far I always get before chickening out. I'm excellent and buying the stuff for a build. Not so good at the actual build.


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## Winspear (Oct 13, 2013)

Good stuff Joe. That fretboard looks really comfortable.


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## dudeskin (Oct 13, 2013)

cheers guys!!

cd1221: not thought about that actually. i know i want to chamber the body like my boden but i wasnt going to go for a top on this guitar so im not sure what ill do about that. i might split the body in half then do some bits to it before i put it back together.
i want it to be nice and light. my boden has properly spoilt my back haha.

i know its more ambitious than most people recommend. but why not. i dont have a use for a 6 string haha. in my head its not much harder than doing a 6, its just wider haha.
im sure i will make plenty of mistakes either way haha.

Cheers EE. got to play around with it a bit more still. this was before i knew about the 10 degree BKP. this was the 30 to 28 with perp at .4 of the neck.


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## dudeskin (Oct 13, 2013)

can i get some votes for body shape dudes?

the top pic or the one under it? very similar bodies but slightly different. just after some input to help me make my final shape.


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## celticelk (Oct 13, 2013)

I have a slight preference for the top design - it just seems a little more dynamic on that upper bout.


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## BlackMastodon (Oct 13, 2013)

Top one gets my vote.


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Oct 13, 2013)

I like the top design better. The upper bout looks "tougher" or more badass.


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## ThePhilosopher (Oct 13, 2013)

Top design for me as well.


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## dudeskin (Oct 19, 2013)

cheers guys, i agree with you for sure.

not much to update at the moment,
other than i think i nailed my scale length and perp fret down now, looks like also that ill be getting a slanted M8 from lundgren for this beast too. works out a good looking fan with a 25 degree bridge. so im happy.

http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/f...t[]=0&t[]=0&u=in&sl=multiple&scale=et&o=equal

on thing im not sure on yet, and i know its simple, but how far from the bridge do you put a pickup? i cant measure my boden due to the straight pickup.

cheers fellas


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## pondman (Oct 19, 2013)

dudeskin said:


> cheers guys, i agree with you for sure.
> 
> not much to update at the moment,
> other than i think i nailed my scale length and perp fret down now, looks like also that ill be getting a slanted M8 from lundgren for this beast too. works out a good looking fan with a 25 degree bridge. so im happy.
> ...



You'll want to double that fret-board overhang.


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## dudeskin (Oct 19, 2013)

Cheers man. I had forgotten to properly think about that one haha.


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## pondman (Oct 19, 2013)

dudeskin said:


> Cheers man. I had forgotten to properly think about that one haha.



Have you started the build yet ? Pics are compulsory and overdue


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## pondman (Oct 19, 2013)

Btw do you mind if I ask where you got the bridge parts and how much they where ?


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## dudeskin (Oct 19, 2013)

I wish dude, I'm waiting for wood haha. 
I think the guy might have forgotten about me so I need to chase him up. 

Technology for Musicians: headless guitar bridges.
Italian company, very friendly and nice. Can't remember how much exactly right now. But something like £25 each or something. I can't remember. About half the price of the strandberg stuff I'd love.


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## dudeskin (Oct 19, 2013)

Not sorted what I'm making as my head string retainers yet. 
I'm thinking brass at the moment.


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## Winspear (Oct 20, 2013)

Nice looking board! Yeah, 4mm overhang. 

Bridge pickup distance...Varies a hell of a lot from guitar to guitar. Lundgrens are bright, too, so I'd not go too close. I'd say 5cm from the intonation point, measured to the middle of the pickup, would be a good basis. 

I might suggest that you move your perp fret up one or two, personally. Because the nut looks very manageable to me but the bridge could be more manageable. Obviously it's still perfectly fine but I think that's the one area that can affect technique, and I personally think it makes sense to push the nut more towards it's limit. This would also increase the gap between the pickup and the saddle a little on the treble side, which might be nice for keeping the high end from becoming too shrill with the Lundgren.


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## dudeskin (Oct 22, 2013)

cool idea dude, thanks!
ill try and print some more mockups off so i can visualize it a bit better. im having a hard time with it at the moment.
i might just get a mock pickup and try it on a few.


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## pondman (Oct 22, 2013)

dudeskin said:


> cool idea dude, thanks!
> ill try and print some more mockups off so i can visualize it a bit better. im having a hard time with it at the moment.
> i might just get a mock pickup and try it on a few.



I printed the one you posted and quite like the feel of it ( glued to board ) .
I've saved it which is a dangerous thing


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## Halffarmer (Oct 23, 2013)

Dudeskin please, start bulding, i'm in love with this design

going to start a build myself soon, sadly i allready bought tuners^^


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## dudeskin (Oct 25, 2013)

nice one Pondman!! looking forward to that one too! haha

Halffarmer: im still waiting on wood, its nicely taken long enough for my next pay day so its not going to be too much longer untill i get things going.

revised fretboard after figuring a few things out for string spacing at the nut and how close together i can lay the bridges together.
http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/f...t[]=0&t[]=0&u=in&sl=multiple&scale=et&o=equal
this means i can start looking at my string retainer now. i was thinking brass to start with, but i dont want to powdercoat it really. so im thinking nice grade off ally and get it anodized. i think i have a friend of a friend that does some cool stuff.
as for the neck profile, i would love to do the endurneck, but cant really get it close enough to the real thing at the moment. so im thinking one of the ones from rick toone' website. still to confirm yet!
still working on the body design, im close but not as nice as i want it yet.

so, still working on this but getting closer.


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## Winspear (Oct 25, 2013)

Toone IPNP Down. Dooo it.


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## dudeskin (Oct 25, 2013)

i think thats the one i was thinking of doing dude!!
http://toone.typepad.com/.a/6a00e39826b28988330154358c8b24970c-800wi
this ^^^

p.s, why is the scale length coming out phsically bigger when i print from fret find?
i ask for 30 inch like its suppose to be, and i just measured it at 31.3 or close to.
doh!!!


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## dudeskin (Nov 5, 2013)

hay dudes.
looks like i may take a little longer on this that i wanted, but i think me and the missus are now saving for our first house together so that slows this down a bit more. but im still on it!

ive managed to scale the fretboard properly now and ive overlayed the body on it too so i can print it out as a template and see what it looks like in MDF.

what do you guys think about the body size?
i might go a little smaller, it looks in proportion here but given the scale length is loooong the body might be physically a tad large. what do you guys think?






ignore a few bad and extra lines, i will print the fretboard out by itself when i need it to be accurate.

joe


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## dudeskin (Nov 6, 2013)

im working on neck thinkness, how much meat do you normally need at the back of a truss rod to the outside of the neck, if that makes any sense?
im looking at this IPNP down and i got to work out a few things.


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## dudeskin (Aug 1, 2014)

hay guys,
im finally back at the main building for work, so i can start to think about a bit more getting something cut out and seeing what i think about this again.

ive still got a lot of the bits in a box so i mainly need wood and some more ideas.

im actually thinking about incorporating some aluminium into it somehow too.

im going to make the neck through part as close to its own thing as possible and then sort the top and lower parts of the body out.

anyway, sorry for the semi update and semi not haha.


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## XxJoshxX (Aug 1, 2014)

I was actually thinking about this build yesterday, glad to see tou back at it.
As for aluminum, you could do aluminum binding, Tom Drinkwater from OAF guitars did it, but he also said that it was difficult and probably not worth it.


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## dudeskin (Aug 6, 2014)

It some pics for you guys later when I can get to a PC. 
Only rough crap but trying out the neck profile on some MDF. Feels really nice actually. 

My question before later, is how strong a dovetail joints? If you had one big one could it hold all string tension? Thinking for my string lock. I'll draw something up school boy style later and explain exactly what I mean but i wasn't sure if it's a no go from the start. Haha. 

Joe


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## dudeskin (Aug 6, 2014)

Very rough. I only had ten mins in my lunch time to make some dust. Haha.


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## dudeskin (Aug 7, 2014)

Hi all,
this is my idea at the moment, not sure ill defo do it this way, but i think its cool.
the dovetail is the main bit i might not keep, im looking for other ways to fix the string lock but without having any more visable holes/not much space for anything as the neck will hopefully be reasonably thin(ofcourse strong enough).

the top holes are where the string goes through after passing the nut/zero fret then pass through the bottom holes where the string can be cut flush and not stick out so my hand will be safe.
then the holes in the middle section are little grub screws M5 maybe, i will test to see if they hold enough of the tension before i might have to go for M6 that i dont want to have to do, mo space haha.

let me know what you think.
its very rough just in paint so that i could show you whats in my head, ive not measured anything or past the initial idea.haha.

cheers
Joe


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## dudeskin (Aug 7, 2014)

just another thought,
im sure i can get a tight fit with these bits, so how about if i didnt dovetail it and just had it slot in. i was thinking the string tension would be pulling the block in a direction it cant do in so it wont move, but also thinking of glue too. 
i know glue doesnt key well with ally, but if it was only as an extra security measure it might be fine.
it would be a lot more simple to machine too, and this way i would have to have one or both ends of the next having the dovetail visable.

can anyone chime in?


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## sehnomatic (Aug 7, 2014)

Mortise and tenon + bolt type thing? (without the complete penetration of both pieces of course)

Headpiece has the tenon which fits into the slot. drill and tap some holes which mate with a bolt which is screwed from the back of the neck/headpiece area.


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## Prophetable (Aug 7, 2014)

dudeskin said:


> Hi all,
> this is my idea at the moment, not sure ill defo do it this way, but i think its cool.
> the dovetail is the main bit i might not keep, im looking for other ways to fix the string lock but without having any more visable holes/not much space for anything as the neck will hopefully be reasonably thin(ofcourse strong enough).
> 
> ...



That drawing interests me. That piece could, conceivably, attach to the end of a truss rod that is just threaded through a hole. It'd allow you to have a neck without a separate fingerboard. Just drill a hole down the length of the neck for the rod (which would have to be threaded on the end) and attach it to the retainer you drew up. I guess you could just make it adjustable from the body side.

I know it has nothing to do with what you're talking about, it just made me think.


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## Solodini (Aug 8, 2014)

Prophetable said:


> That drawing interests me. That piece could, conceivably, attach to the end of a truss rod that is just threaded through a hole. It'd allow you to have a neck without a separate fingerboard. Just drill a hole down the length of the neck for the rod (which would have to be threaded on the end) and attach it to the retainer you drew up. I guess you could just make it adjustable from the body side.
> 
> I know it has nothing to do with what you're talking about, it just made me think.


 
Maple fretboard Fenders often have the fingerboard as part of the neck, by routing from the thumb side of the neck for the truss rod. Hence the strip of inset wood.


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## Prophetable (Aug 8, 2014)

The appeal, for me, would be the lack of the skunk stripe, as well.


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## dudeskin (Aug 8, 2014)

That's a very interesting idea for sure!! 
My main reason for what I was thinking before is purely because I want it to be as clean as possible with no visible/obvious bolts or extras anywhere. 
I won't have much space for this to work so I have to think about it properly. 

Defo no skunk strip on this. Haha


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## HurrDurr (Aug 8, 2014)

I haven't seen any sideways drill presses that could get that job done, let alone a drill bit long enough to do so either way. Best way to do it would be to rout out the channel in the neck as per the norm, then add a recess at the top for the neck where the headpiece's tenon would be. Next, would be to drill the access for the truss rod into the headpiece as was described and fit the truss rod into place along with the headpiece into the neck and glue down the fretboard. You'll need to add some reinforcement to the headpiece, so a few screws under the fretboard attaching the tenon to the neck itself should do it before gluing the board down.

EDIT: Forgot to quote *Prophetable*, but essentially I was referring to his original statement.


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## Prophetable (Aug 9, 2014)

There are drill sleds and crazy long bits in this world. I'm not saying it's how he should do his build, just making an observation about something I found particularly interesting.

Where there is a will there is a way. Haha.


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## dudeskin (Aug 9, 2014)

I work in the engineering department of a university so around I have some odd machines and I'm sure I could come up with something. Haha. 
We have had to weld and turn down drill bits before haha. 
Not sure I'll go down that route just yet *see what I did there*


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## dudeskin (Jul 12, 2016)

Wow, this died off a long time ago haha.
feeling the itch again now. 
Thinking my needs have changed a little in terms of scale length and pickup choice though.
i may be going a little shorter and having a neck pickup too.

since i made this thread we managed to buy our own house, and i have an amazing little 8 month old daughter. she met Ola Strandberg this weekend at UK Tech fest and now we arnt that busy at work so i can get away with doing the odd bit every so often.

it will be slow, but progress will be made.


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## BlackMastodon (Jul 12, 2016)

Glad to see you haven't given up on this one. I really love the body shape on it. Also congrats on the house and daughter!


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## dudeskin (Jul 15, 2016)

Been getting there a little with figuring out final Scale length etc.
the main focus for this build is to have a more "conventional" pickup placement in relation to the scale length/ bridge angle. struggling a little to get the best of everything. its all a juggle.
i want to use Aftermaths, these have a 10 degree slant. so after EE helping me out with some good info. im keeping the Pickup placement at a set percentage of the scale length (undecided what but this helps me work out angles).

its a struggle to get my scale length and keep the bridge at a suitable angle, without making the lower frets more extreme.

Ive also measured my bridge parts, taken into account the pole spacing of the Pups etc so i have re done my FretFind2D.

Would anyone mind having a quick look over it and letting me know if anything seams crazy wrong.
Im working in a mix of units so quite likely. 

Pics to come, i think my photobucket is mainly spam now for some reason haha.

cheers
http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/f...8&il[]=28.5&u=in&sl=multiple&scale=et&o=equal


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## Winspear (Jul 15, 2016)

Looks good to me. I'm not all that picky with fan angles though as you are certainly well aware haha. I'd say the nut looks quite fine especially for a classical playing position. The bridge, and the upper frets especially, look great, and I find those the more problematic areas. Just make sure you've got a real smooth profile around the nut incase your finger crosses over slightly - think you're using a zero fret? So that helps. The headpiece design you proposed looks pretty comfy  Get that printed out and see how it feels under your strings  
If I'm understanding correctly I think then fret 26 on the current design is 10 degrees so perfect neck pickup placement (add some frets to the design and check the charts). You're right it'd be tough to get the bridge pickup 'fret' to 10 degrees. I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as it's mostly there. No need to compromise fan comfort too much  You're looking at 15 degrees for a fret placed 1 inch from the bridge (fret 57ish) on the current design. 

Check your nut and bridge spacings  Obviously it's flexible and entirely up to you, but they are quite a bit larger than what I understand to be the standard. Looking at about 58mm at nut rather than the usual 54mm. I'm thinking that maybe you calculated the length of your bridge and nut and entered those and because angled they are longer? 
On fretfind that's not how it works on fanned fret. The entered string spread applies to an imaginary line drawn from the center line (or middle string on a 7 string) and intersected by the path of the strings. So if you enter 6.8mm (which I believe is roughly the standard) spacing on an 8 that's 47.6mm string spread at the nut on this imaginary vertical line. The spacing on the actual nut you cut for a fanned fret using fretfind like this is going to be slightly less on the bass side and slightly more on the treble side due to the strings inward taper. It's very slight, I'm sure you can work it out. But it's not ideal, kind of reverse progressive spacing haha. The bridge works out the other way to a progressive spacing  I'd just go with it rough in fretfind and tweak it in real life with the slotting/headpiece if you want to get real precise. 
However, hit me up if you want me to adjust the fretfind file in software for a custom spacing and move the string paths etc once you've got it how you want  I've been doing this on all my designs recently. I essentially use the fretfind as a guide, map out my desired spacing on the nut and bridge lines, redraw the strings, and then correct the frets very slightly. The frets only need the very slightest adjustment, like it probably wouldn't even be visible in real life haha, altering the spacings yourself with the same fret template would intonate just fine. I suppose it wouldn't be so simple if not using a slotted nut but relying on the headpiece beyond the zero fret. But if you want to be perfect.. Actually I seem to recall there's an advanced mode or version of fretfind somewhere that I'd be surprised if it couldn't do custom spacings..but maybe not

TLDR: Don't worry too much, just fixing the string spread to a smaller number now you know how it works is perfectly accurate enough to feel fine I'm sure


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## dudeskin (Jul 18, 2016)

cheers dude.
Yeah zero fret for sure, originally with my headpiece it was going to have kind of a nut built in, but not too sure what my idea is with this at the moment, need to make a proto neck to have a go with.

string spacing, i think your correct. i went off the strandy website for the boden string spacing, assuming was measured the way i thought, turns out it must be along the nut and not a cross section. ill measure my boden at home to get the final size.
as for progressive string spacing, i didnt even know this was a thing haha.
That would be awesome if you could help me out with a modified layout with that taken into account dude. 
if im making this thing i want it to play as nice as possible and im under no time constraints so why not.

im happy with the fan layout i think, ill print it out later and look.
i worked out that a 10 degree angle at the high E compared to the low low E the difference is only about 1.2%, so nothing really.

just got to work on the body shape a little for upper fret access, depending where i put my bridge pieces.


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## dudeskin (Jul 18, 2016)

Testing to see if I can post from my phone.


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## Winspear (Jul 18, 2016)

Success  Nice dude! That pickup position is totally fine. How's the nut angle feel for you on the template? 
You know - I always wondered about zero fret + nut on a headless. The nut seems kind of useless, no? On my Egan it certainly was haha. As long as the headpiece has the holes in the right place for the spacing you want you should be all good to just use that


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