# So In Flames just re-recorded Clayman (the song)...



## Kaura (Jun 8, 2020)

What do you think? Personally, I hate it. Which is funny because I actually like modern IF but being accustomed to the gritty sound of the original (which I've always kinda hated) this just feels wrong.


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## Strobe (Jun 8, 2020)

I am a gigantic long time fan of In Flames. These guys got me into heavy music in the late 90's. 

As for this re-recording - I like it - the guitar tones have changed a ton from the original. It still sounds good, just different. I do not have a strong opinion either way. The song and the album are like old friends. I neither love nor hate the way the mix has changed.


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## Metropolis (Jun 8, 2020)

Lacks so much energy, it's terrible because of that. Playing, some of the new arrangement choices, production, everything.

Gritty early 2000's melodeath tones >>>>>> this polished turd.


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## Demiurge (Jun 8, 2020)

It's tepid and unnecessary. Also, it's kind of a huge self-own for a band whose current material arguably isn't as good as it used to be going back to re-record a better, older song and making it sound bland.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 8, 2020)

I'm probably one of the few people on here that likes their newer albums (except for battles which is shit). That being said, this is a fucking travesty. It's a neutered boring version of a classic melodeath song. Yeah it sounds cleaner, but the HUUUUUGENESSS of the original song (and that whole album) is part of why it was awesome. That massive chunky bass/guitar chug has been one of my favorite tones since I first picked up guitar. It's like they dropped the levels on everything by like 10 db and just completely killed the vibe of the original.


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## TedEH (Jun 8, 2020)

I don't know if I'm imagining it, but it kinda sounds like a drum machine. It's either programmed in, or waaaaaaaaay to quantized.


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## Kaura (Jun 8, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm probably one of the few people on here that likes their newer albums (except for battles which is shit). That being said, this is a fucking travesty. It's a neutered boring version of a classic melodeath song. Yeah it sounds cleaner, but the HUUUUUGENESSS of the original song (and that whole album) is part of why it was awesome. That massive chunky bass/guitar chug has been one of my favorite tones since I first picked up guitar. It's like they dropped the levels on everything by like 10 db and just completely killed the vibe of the original.



I actually love Battles. Both the songwriting and production but this song just feels rushed production-wise.


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## mastapimp (Jun 8, 2020)

I'll probably pick this up for the remaster since i loved everything they put out up to Come Clarity, but I can't help but compare it to the original and it's falling flat. Way too polished...not as angry or energetic and the guitars sound pushed back. 

However, it is nice to hear Anders in a recent song without his "singing" voice again. If the original Clayman never existed and they released this as a new song, I think I'd be back on board.


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## Necris (Jun 8, 2020)

Sounds like a decent youtube cover.


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## Leviathus (Jun 8, 2020)

Never heard this demo before.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 8, 2020)




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## Xaios (Jun 8, 2020)

Nope. Nope. Nope.

The guitars completely lack the heft and snarl of classic Studio Fredman production. There's a reason that "The Clayman Sound" is absolutely revered among melodeath enthusiasts, because it hits like an absolute train. This most certainly does not. The drums are similarly lifeless and without impact, and Anders's growling just doesn't have the same weight.

I guess you really can never go home again. *sigh*


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## KailM (Jun 8, 2020)

Clayman was never even close to my favorite In Flames album, but it was the last album of theirs that I bought. Everything after it just kept getting worse and worse. 

This re-do is terrible.

Jester, Whoracle, and Colony, however? All-time awesome.


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## Necky379 (Jun 8, 2020)

Instead of trying to improve what was genre defining material it would be more interesting to me to hear them incorporate some of the old sound into new material. Similar to how Deftones are back with Terry Date. Some departure is good in my opinion and although I have little interest in their newer material they’ve certainly expanded their appeal. Maybe someday they’ll remember those of us still stuck in ‘02 who are waiting for them to dust off the Peaveys and give Fredman a call.


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## Vyn (Jun 8, 2020)

It sounds so thin by comparison, that 'wall of guitars' sound is just missing completely. Also sounds like they just completely pulled all of the low end out of the mix.

I do actually prefer the vocals in the chorus of the re-recording over the original.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 9, 2020)

It’s made me think how many bands have wrote amazing songs like Clayman but the execution fell flat because of the arrangement and production. This lacks the intensity and explosiveness the original had. 

An odd choice to redo such an iconic song that is a stable for metal production to this day.


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## ICSvortex (Jun 9, 2020)

tbh a modern re-recording of clayman sounded like a dream come true for me...
I like most of what they did here EXCEPT for the guitar tones. The guitars disappear in the mix and the lead part (at 2:20ish) sounds kinda shrill and it's way too loud in comparison.
If the drums just had a tad more grit and if you could hear the guitars if would be 100% perfect for me.
But like this it's a "meh" for me.


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## fps (Jun 9, 2020)

Production and performance are as important in falling in love with a song as the song itself. This will never satisfy people. It has probably been rerecorded to try and sell it to media. I dislike modern metal production so much. Guitars have been pushed backwards.


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## Esp Griffyn (Jun 9, 2020)

Bland, flat and lifeless. This was hardly my favourite song on the album but all they've proved with this exercise is that there is far, far more to a good song than the notes you play. It's a triumvirate of the notes, the performance and the production which captures the performance. I think the latter two have utterly failed here, taking a good song and making it sound awful.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 9, 2020)

Had a quick listen. Nope, didn't like it.

That said, when has rerecorded releases ever been a good idea, let alone a successful result? First Strike Still Deadly immediately comes to mind. Sure production is nice and Testament had a much more rounded drummer during the sessions, but all the spirit and fire of the originals are long gone. Doesn't help that it was done out of necessity hence the phoned in performance.


EDIT: I guess off the top of my head Mintjam's Keep On Jamming compilation is the one exception to my statement above. Though that's probably my extreme bias towards the band.


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## TedEH (Jun 9, 2020)

Are they re-recording the whole album? I'd be curious to hear how much of a trainwreck the whole thing is.


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## Ralyks (Jun 9, 2020)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> That said, when has rerecorded releases ever been a good idea, let alone a successful result? First Strike Still Deadly immediately comes to mind. Sure production is nice and Testament had a much more rounded drummer during the sessions, but all the spirit and fire of the originals are long gone. Doesn't help that it was done out of necessity hence the phoned in performance.



First Strike was boring, and I think the only reason I was intrigued at the time was Steve DiGirogio on bass. Also, you're making me nervous about Mr. Bungle rerecording Raging Wrath.

Anyway, I pray to whoever/whatever that In Flames doesn't go anywhere near Colony after listening to this.


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## ICSvortex (Jun 9, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Are they re-recording the whole album? I'd be curious to hear how much of a trainwreck the whole thing is.



Yes whole album. Out August 28th i think


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## fps (Jun 9, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Are they re-recording the whole album? I'd be curious to hear how much of a trainwreck the whole thing is.



A third of it, I think I read in a metalsucks article.


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## Triple-J (Jun 9, 2020)

The release consists of the original album remastered by Ted Jensen plus rerecorded versions of Bullet ride/Only for the weak/Pinball map/Clayman and a new instrumental track called "Themes and variations in D-minor" as bonus tracks.
This rerecorded version of Clayman doesn't have me excited for the bonus tracks but I'm interested in hearing the remastered album.


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## Choop (Jun 9, 2020)

The vocals are pretty good, but all of the instrumentation is comparatively weak...bummerino.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 9, 2020)

Ralyks said:


> Also, you're making me nervous about Mr. Bungle rerecording Raging Wrath.



Obviously it won't be the same experience since the band is now in their middle ages. But if there's a wildcard, Dave Lombardo has that magical ability to consistently capture raw anger and aggression in every recording he's been involved in. So consider that a semblance of hope.


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## InHiding (Jun 9, 2020)

Only listened with laptop speakers (which are actually quite ok). The new one is quite "soft" sounding. It's still a decent song just like it always was. I never considered it to be _that_ strong. Just sounds like they are playing inside a cardboard box compared to the original.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 9, 2020)

Y'all classic Jesterheads still want a Jester 2.0? Because that's what you get.


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## Ralyks (Jun 9, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Y'all classic Jesterheads still want a Jester 2.0? Because that's what you get.



There's people out there that don't realize this is a lost cause yet?


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## AdenM (Jun 9, 2020)

I got into In Flames when A Sense of Purpose came out, but this is terrible IMO. It's a fine modern metal/hard rock mix, but when you A-B it with how Clayman is supposed to sound, it has no edge. Especially evident for me at the bridge section (1:50ish, I believe).


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## gnoll (Jun 9, 2020)

It seems like a crap idea to begin with. The original sounds great, so why bother?

Re-recordings are pretty much never any good, but this one is unusually bad. Seems odd to even put this out. I mean don't they care at all anymore?


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## Mboogie7 (Jun 9, 2020)

I’m impartial to it, but I’ll take this as a win because I’ve been going through my old in flames collection and is it fantastic.


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## Metropolis (Jun 9, 2020)

Maybe I will do that too... I only have Whoracle as a CD, which I bought about 15 years ago.


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## Boofchuck (Jun 9, 2020)

That weird warp sound at the end completely took me out of any enjoyment I had. I love old In Flames but the new stuff doesn't appeal to me, especially this.


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## works0fheart (Jun 9, 2020)

Man I wish this band could be good again. 
I wish the current lineup would just take on another name and that Jesper, Peter, Daniel, Glen, and some singer would just get together and write some badass music again.


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## DiezelMonster (Jun 9, 2020)

I can't believe these guys are still around. I lost interest after The Jester Race. 
I remember seeing them several times live, last tine was with Nevermore in 1999 or so. They were okay but had quite a lot of difficulty keeping their guitars in tune and an overall lack of quality. Nevermore on the other hand absolutely blew them away!


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## kylendm (Jun 9, 2020)




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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 9, 2020)

Just
Man
The guitar tone suuuucks compared to the original. How the fuck you gonna take that iconic Fredman tone and neuter it so badly? Also the drums are just *there* and the vocals sound phoned in.


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## erdiablo666 (Jun 9, 2020)

Just flush that entire band down the toilet. I can't believe you could manage to fuck up Clayman that badly.


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## fantom (Jun 10, 2020)

So controversial... I never liked Clayman... I lost interest in this band because of how let down I was by this album. The new recording sounds like a pop song guitarist recording to a metronome... Listening to both back to back, I prefer the new recording, but still dislike the music. I think the new guitar tone fits the style of the album better, even if it is more lifeless and less edgy.


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## fps (Jun 10, 2020)

DiezelMonster said:


> I can't believe these guys are still around. I lost interest after The Jester Race.
> I remember seeing them several times live, last tine was with Nevermore in 1999 or so. They were okay but had quite a lot of difficulty keeping their guitars in tune and an overall lack of quality. Nevermore on the other hand absolutely blew them away!



Nevermore were so phenomenal. I hear a lot of their riffing style in what's gone on to be popular. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick Gordon was a massive Nevermore fan.


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## DiezelMonster (Jun 10, 2020)

fps said:


> Nevermore were so phenomenal. I hear a lot of their riffing style in what's gone on to be popular. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick Gordon was a massive Nevermore fan.



Nevermore were such an amazing band. I got into them during Dreaming Neon Black and was able to see them many many times. They were pretty flawless live. I remember smoking a joint with Warrel when I was a youngin. Good times.


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## Kaura (Jun 10, 2020)

Damn, I'm surprised by the amount of replies this thread has gotten so far. Didn't realise how many IF fans there are here but I'm even more surprised to hear people disliked Clayman. I think that's their first good album as a whole.


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## Mprinsje (Jun 10, 2020)

More than anything i love the production work on Clayman, it just sounds huge. This sounds pretty sterile and lacks the punch of the original. I also don't get that intro.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaura said:


> I'm even more surprised to hear people disliked Clayman. I think that's their first good album as a whole.


*sharpens pitchfork*
this is blasphemy.


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## gunshow86de (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaura said:


> I'm even more surprised to hear people disliked Clayman. I think that's their first good album as a whole.





KnightBrolaire said:


> *sharpens pitchfork*
> this is blasphemy.



The Whoracle/Colony/Clayman-era is peak In Flames, IMO.


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## fantom (Jun 10, 2020)

Kaura said:


> I'm even more surprised to hear people disliked Clayman. I think that's their first good album as a whole.



As a reference point...

The first song I heard from them was Subterranean in the mid 90s. It took me probably a year to find a copy of that album. I really liked Lunar Strain when I dug for more material and was able to find The Jester Race quickly (Nuclear Blast was available to order at chain stores). To me, the style shift was evident through Whoracle and Colony, but with the exception of maybe 2 songs (Ordinary Story... Cough cough), they still had the same sound with better production. I actually remember thinking the first time I heard Ordinary Story "oh no, I hope they don't do this again"...

Clayman was them doing it again. It was their equivalent of the Black Album and their turning point, gaining them more fans while still retaining some old ones that had hope it was a mistake. Pinball Map was a standout track. Maybe I'll go listen to the entire album again and see if I was just an elitist prick 20 years ago. But In Flames pre-Clayman is just a different band to me just like many people write off Metallica post And Justice for All.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 10, 2020)

I suppose it could be worse. Remember this Alice In Chains cover...





Now to wash that away...



That's better.


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## Kaura (Jun 10, 2020)

fantom said:


> As a reference point...
> 
> The first song I heard from them was Subterranean in the mid 90s. It took me probably a year to find a copy of that album. I really liked Lunar Strain when I dug for more material and was able to find The Jester Race quickly (Nuclear Blast was available to order at chain stores). To me, the style shift was evident through Whoracle and Colony, but with the exception of maybe 2 songs (Ordinary Story... Cough cough), they still had the same sound with better production. I actually remember thinking the first time I heard Ordinary Story "oh know, I hope they don't do this again"...
> 
> Clayman was them doing it again. It was their equivalent of the Black Album and their turning point, gaining them more fans while still retaining some old ones that had hope it was a mistake. Pinball Map was a standout track. Maybe I'll go listen to the entire album again and see if I was just an elitist prick 20 years ago. But In Flames pre-Clayman is just a different band to me just like many people write off Metallica post And Justice for All.



Yeah, I can understand the preference. The first IF song I ever heard was probably Trigger so I was always accustomed to the modern IF sound. When I got Spotify and listened to the 90´s albums I just couldn't get into them apart from a few songs here and there. They sounded like a totally different band to me.


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## Legion (Jun 10, 2020)

Is it unfair to say that to my ears, while it sounds good from a mix balance perspective, the guitar and kickdrum tones just sound...weak? Like there's not punch-to-the-gut that I expect to feel with the "clayman sound"...


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## thrsher (Jun 10, 2020)

i went into this expecting the vocals to be awful, suprised to say i was wrong. never did i think it would be the guitars that would drop the ball. this is failure IMO. im all for bands doing the re-record too but this one didnt do the music justice


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 10, 2020)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I suppose it could be worse. Remember this Alice In Chains cover...




Woof.

*Wooooof.
*
This is 5FDP levels of bad cover.


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## Xaios (Jun 10, 2020)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Now to wash that away...
> 
> 
> 
> That's better.



_*Sigh*_

My love of this song is always tempered by the fact that they _never_ played it live because no one could pull off the solo (played on the album by Fredrik Johansson from Dimension Zero).

As far as the "Down In A Hole" cover is concerned, it sounds like all the other soft covers by metal bands of classic songs that people in general have creamed themselves over in the past, like Disturbed covering "The Sound of Silence" or Limp Bizkit (yes, you read that correctly) covering "Behind Blue Eyes".


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## xzacx (Jun 10, 2020)

Wow, really bad. Yet also the best thing I've heard from them since....Clayman (which I don't even really like).


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## Alexa run my life (Jun 10, 2020)

I cannot stand the lead guitar tones ever since after Come Clarity.

It has this nasaly, cocked wah sound and it grinds my ears. Just terrible


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## gnoll (Jun 11, 2020)

I still think Lunar Strain and Subterranean were peak In Flames, but I know that's a pretty unusual opinion to have. One of the first albums I got as a kid was a cd release of those two together. I remember then getting Jester Race and being totally disappointed. They got too sugary I guess, and I gravitated towards black metal and thrash instead. I can still sort of appreciate some IF up until Clayman, but eh, I could take it or leave it. Anything after is pretty bad.


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## Leviathus (Jun 11, 2020)

Lol, everyone's got their In Flames cutoff album.


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## works0fheart (Jun 11, 2020)

^Very true. There's certainly albums that I enjoy more than others, namely the first 3, but I can still listen to everything up to A Sense of Purpose and still find a few tracks I enjoy. At least they still had some semblance of energy and sounded like metal to a degree. 

The new stuff sounds like they're trying so hard to be mainstream radio rock that I'm honestly embarrassed for them if that makes sense? You ever feel that way with something or someone? Like they're doing something so cringey that it makes you just uncomfortable to hear or see it? That's how I feel about In Flames now. 

It's one of those things that if people bring up music in conversation and I talk about stuff I like I'm almost afraid to even mention liking their old albums just because now the first thing to come to mind when saying their name is whatever non-sense they're releasing lately, aka soulless re-recordings of Clayman.


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## KailM (Jun 11, 2020)

fantom said:


> I actually remember thinking the first time I heard Ordinary Story "oh no, I hope they don't do this again"...
> 
> Clayman was them doing it again. It was their equivalent of the Black Album and their turning point, gaining them more fans while still retaining some old ones that had hope it was a mistake. Pinball Map was a standout track. Maybe I'll go listen to the entire album again and see if I was just an elitist prick 20 years ago. But In Flames pre-Clayman is just a different band to me just like many people write off Metallica post And Justice for All.



Have you been listening in on my internal thoughts about In Flames? 

Ordinary Story was exactly my first "WTF" moment with In Flames. But then the rest of Colony was so good it kind of made up for it. Clayman was them saying "nah, we were onto something with Ordinary Story, let's dial that up 50% on this next album." (facepalm) If it weren't for the pretty strong riffs in a lot of places, Clayman would be unlistenable.

I don't know how anyone can stomach post-Clayman In Flames, I really don't.


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## ICSvortex (Jun 11, 2020)

i think what we could all agree on is that the siren charms album was the absolute lowest point of in flames^^


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## Nag (Jun 11, 2020)

If the band is proud of this re-recording, that'll explain why Jesper Strömblad became an alcoholic and GTFO'd eventually. This version has zero balls to it.


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## fps (Jun 11, 2020)

Kaura said:


> Yeah, I can understand the preference. The first IF song I ever heard was probably Trigger so I was always accustomed to the modern IF sound. When I got Spotify and listened to the 90´s albums I just couldn't get into them apart from a few songs here and there. They sounded like a totally different band to me.



Trigger is a banging track.


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## fps (Jun 11, 2020)

Legion said:


> Is it unfair to say that to my ears, while it sounds good from a mix balance perspective, the guitar and kickdrum tones just sound...weak? Like there's not punch-to-the-gut that I expect to feel with the "clayman sound"...



I wonder whether it has been recorded, perfectly justifiably and quickly, with their live show's tones.


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## Kwert (Jun 11, 2020)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I suppose it could be worse. Remember this Alice In Chains cover...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I remember when it was the pinnacle of Internet guitardom to be able to play the December Flower solo... back in the MXTabs Forum days.

I'm sure this is heavily tinted with nostalgia, but part of what makes the Swedish Melodeath sound is that chainsaw, Entombed-esque guitar tone that all those bands adopted. Everything about this re-recording is the antithesis of what Swedish Death Metal (and Melodeath) is supposed to sound like.


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## couverdure (Jun 11, 2020)

Kaura said:


> Yeah, I can understand the preference. The first IF song I ever heard was probably Trigger so I was always accustomed to the modern IF sound. When I got Spotify and listened to the 90´s albums I just couldn't get into them apart from a few songs here and there. They sounded like a totally different band to me.


Is it weird that this is the first song I've heard from them?


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## Kaura (Jun 11, 2020)

couverdure said:


> Is it weird that this is the first song I've heard from them?




Now that you mention it. That was my first one as well. It was that song that made me look up In Flames and Trigger was the first one I probably landed on.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 13, 2020)

I found this quote from an interview just over a year ago. He certainly changed his mind. 

"I will never go back and do another *'The Jester Race'* or *'Whoracle'* or *'Colony'* or *'Clayman'*. It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be true to that album. That album is perfect in every way. If I try to go back 20 years and try to recreate something when I'm in a whole different state of mind, that wouldn't do it justice. It would just only be bad." - Anders Friden


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 13, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I found this quote from an interview just over a year ago. He certainly changed his mind.
> 
> "I will never go back and do another *'The Jester Race'* or *'Whoracle'* or *'Colony'* or *'Clayman'*. It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be true to that album. That album is perfect in every way. If I try to go back 20 years and try to recreate something when I'm in a whole different state of mind, that wouldn't do it justice. It would just only be bad." - Anders Friden


well he was right about it how it would turn out being bad, the clayman remake is dogshit


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## MFB (Jun 13, 2020)

Hopefully the rest of the fanbase finds it the same way compared to the original and they realize not do the rest of them this way; that quote at least to me sounds like he means try to write like that vs. re-recordings/remasters like what we got here, which makes sense since they're not the same people they were 25 years ago writing them, so they shouldn't still be trying to write them


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## cip 123 (Jun 13, 2020)

I've never listened to original Clayman I must confess but I did just before I listened to this new one....

Holy Sh*t this new one sounds like it was recorded in a bedroom but like not the "OMG this was all done in your bedroom?" more of the "Yea I can f*ckin tell"


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## Hellbound (Jun 13, 2020)

Wow talk about a brain fart!!!
Odd how the remake sounds old and horribly produced...and the original still sounds new, fresh, and amazing.
The remake has zero calories!!!


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## works0fheart (Jun 14, 2020)

Ah, yes, Diet-In Flames if you will.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jun 14, 2020)

Ok so this isn’t an entire re-recording. It’s the 20th anniversary release of the original (mostly) with 4 additional re-recorded tracks: “Pinball Map”, “Only for the Weak”, “Bullet Ride”, and “Clayman”. They also removed the last two tracks which were the South Park theme song for Strong Woman, “Strong and Smart”, and “World of Promises”, replacing them with “Themes and Variations in D-Minor”. So new track? Unreleased? Mix of the last two? Meh, so it’s the typical nostalgia cash grab by a label (In Flames welcome back to Nuclear Blast, NOW MAKE US MORE MONEY), with the most popular live songs or “hits” re-recorded at the end of the record.

My reaction was PHEW! If they did that for any of their first albums I wouldn’t mind, because I think Jester Race, Whoracle, and Colony deserve proper remix/remasters, not just “make them louder” treatment. I’ll always love In Flames, and have accepted their more pop-metal turn. They still play the old stuff live. The only bands I’ve seen live more than them are Amon Amarth and Opeth, so I’ll gladly see them again whenever touring resumes.

Do not google search Strong Woman, that was a joke. Binge watching problems.


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## gunshow86de (Jun 14, 2020)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> They also removed the last two tracks which were the South Park theme song for Strong Woman, “Strong and Smart”,
> 
> Do not google search Strong Woman, that was a joke. Binge watching problems.



You got me. I actually went on Youtube and rewatched the Strong Woman Competition montage and was like "hey this isn't In Flames." Coffee still hasn't kicked in I guess.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jun 14, 2020)

FYI, I preordered it, and the Clayman re-recording through iTunes sounds INFINITELY better than YouTube. The online stream is subdued and vulnerable to the compression changes that happens to everything posted on that site. I have learned to hate iTunes compared to playing a CD and especially vinyl. Bandcamp is flawless by comparison to all other streaming services. But in this case the iTunes version is actually acceptable. I still prefer the original, but the heft is waaaaay better, whereas the YouTube upload ruined it.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jun 14, 2020)

gunshow86de said:


> You got me. I actually went on Youtube and rewatched the Strong Woman Competition montage and was like "hey this isn't In Flames." Coffee still hasn't kicked in I guess.



Well it might as well have been compared to the difference between listening to it on YouTube vs iTunes. Sorry! I’m a kid and can’t help myself. In my defense, I was left unsupervised.


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## TedEH (Jun 15, 2020)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> the compression changes that happens to everything posted on that site.


People like to say this, but I don't find the compression on YouTube to be nearly as bad as people like to say it is. It's certainly not so transformative as to destroy the general vibe of a mix like this. It's a bad take on the song, I don't think it's fair to blame YouTube for that.


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## Kaura (Jun 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> People like to say this, but I don't find the compression on YouTube to be nearly as bad as people like to say it is. It's certainly not so transformative as to destroy the general vibe of a mix like this. It's a bad take on the song, I don't think it's fair to blame YouTube for that.



Agreed but just for fun I decided to check this song on Spotify and honestly the difference is pretty big. The guitars still sound muffled and weak but the Spotify version seems to have a bit more oomph in the overall mix.


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## TedEH (Jun 15, 2020)

This is because the Spotify version is louder. The YouTube copy peaks at around -6, and the Spotify one is close to 0. If you reduce the volume of the spotify one, they're practically identical.

Ironically, I believe the Spotify one is slightly more compressed, not the other way around (in terms of dynamic range, not data compression).


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jun 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> This is because the Spotify version is louder. The YouTube copy peaks at around -6, and the Spotify one is close to 0. If you reduce the volume of the spotify one, they're practically identical.
> 
> Ironically, I believe the Spotify one is slightly more compressed, not the other way around (in terms of dynamic range, not data compression).



And I think they sound like shit on both but better on iTunes, and it’s not just volume. I agree that volume doesn’t mean it is saved, but it certainly helps. Volume makes a colossal difference in metal, and that’s not just me going deaf saying that. I played all three in my truck stereo and cranked the volume to match the variability and there is noticeable differences from YouTube to Spotify and iTunes. On the latter the drums hit harder as opposed to boomy from turning up YouTube. Listening to all 3 through some BD DT770 headphones really confirmed this. 

I’m definitely not saying the re-record mix is a very good version, it just doesn’t sound as pathetic depending on which platform.


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## Mathemagician (Jun 15, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I found this quote from an interview just over a year ago. He certainly changed his mind.
> 
> "I will never go back and do another *'The Jester Race'* or *'Whoracle'* or *'Colony'* or *'Clayman'*. It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be true to that album. That album is perfect in every way. If I try to go back 20 years and try to recreate something when I'm in a whole different state of mind, that wouldn't do it justice. It would just only be bad." - Anders Friden



Could just be me but I take this to mean “We’re not going to try to write an album today that sounds and feels like what we were writing 20 years ago. People and styles change and we don’t write in that exact way anymore”

Very much like Metallica since the late 90’s talking about not spending their days sitting down to write another “MoP/RTL/AJFA” (a straight-forward thrash album with heavy political lyrics, and/or whatever you’d call AJFA) like they did when they were angry 20 year olds. 

Basically they don’t want to promise fans another album “just like your old favorite” and pigeon hole themselves. 

A remaster/re-recording isn’t the same thing imo.


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## mastapimp (Jun 15, 2020)

A fan already "remastered" the re-recording to bring the track back to life:

https://www.reddit.com/r/InFlames/c...ew_clayman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x has the embedded sound cloud

He also posted on youtube:


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 15, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> A remaster/re-recording isn’t the same thing imo.


 
Oh yeah he’s not talking specifically about re-recording. That’s not what I was implying by saying he changed his mind. Where he says he can’t re-create those albums because he isn’t in the same frame of mind now, it wouldn’t do it justice and the result would be bad is what I was pointing out. Despite saying all this they actually re-created some old songs, they didn’t do it justice and it is bad. His exact words come true but he did it anyway a year after this interview.


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## Strobe (Jun 15, 2020)

5 pages in, I still think it's basically fine and mostly a matter of taste. The vocals stand out better with less mud in the new (this was sometimes a problem on early records). I prefer the guitar tones of the original and the general aggro nature. It still remains a great song. I would have never guessed I was supposed to hate this were it not for all the internet folks dumping on it.

Also, when he talks about not being able to do the album again - I took it as from a writing perspective. You have to be in a certain state of mind to write a certain way if having it convey actual feelings is something you intend to do. I don't see why he cannot perform the old stuff.


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## fps (Jun 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> This is because the Spotify version is louder. The YouTube copy peaks at around -6, and the Spotify one is close to 0. If you reduce the volume of the spotify one, they're practically identical.
> 
> Ironically, I believe the Spotify one is slightly more compressed, not the other way around (in terms of dynamic range, not data compression).



Hi on Spotify can I ask is this with Normalise off and best quality chosen for the streaming?


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## TedEH (Jun 16, 2020)

^ It was when I looked at it. I've never used Spotify's normalize feature so I don't know what it does. But it's normal for anything on Spotify to be mastered close to 0. I'm actually very surprised the YouTube clip is so quiet.

You can check this for yourself - use something like Audacity to record the loopback audio on your machine, and play the two copies. Go into Reaper or something, line the two up, and you can compare them for yourself.


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## Choop (Jun 16, 2020)

Just listened to it on Spotify and while a little better, I still think that the vocals came out good but all of the instruments just don't pack nearly enough punch. It almost sounds like a youtube cover done by one guy sans the vocals.


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## Alex79 (Jun 17, 2020)

In Flames went downhill rapidly when Jesper Strömblad left the band. A real pity.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jun 19, 2020)

mastapimp said:


> A fan already "remastered" the re-recording to bring the track back to life:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/InFlames/c...ew_clayman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x has the embedded sound cloud
> 
> He also posted on youtube:




And now the cymbals are too loud, LOL. Not a bad stab at it though!


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## Emperoff (Jun 19, 2020)

Funny how everyone is so surprised. It sounds EXACTLY like any other recently released metal album. This is what all modern productions sound like. Everything lacks balls.

Listening back to the original is a good reminder of how good heavy metal guitars used to sound before guitar tones went south a decade ago.

Youtube comments section is on fire, that's for sure


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## Edika (Jun 19, 2020)

I'm late to the party it seems. I finally sat down to listen to the new version and had to listen to the original as it's been a while.
It is different and not as edgy and has the wall of sound they had in the first version but it sounds a lot less bloated and not everything is maxed to 11 and sound super compressed. So I like it in that aspect. I was never a big fan of In Flames and listened to their albums that much so it's not raping my childhood and I can see it for what it is.
I was more of a Dark Tranquility and At The Gates fan and I'd still be interested to here an alternate recording/mix.


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## Metropolis (Jun 23, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> Funny how everyone is so surprised. It sounds EXACTLY like any other recently released metal album. This is what all modern productions sound like. Everything lacks balls.
> 
> Listening back to the original is a good reminder of how good heavy metal guitars used to sound before guitar tones went south a decade ago.
> 
> Youtube comments section is on fire, that's for sure



What... Listening to Gojira's L'Enfant Sauvage now, damn this has balls. It's really modern in my opinion, and sounds nothing alike this compressed shit.


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## p0ke (Jun 23, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I do actually prefer the vocals in the chorus of the re-recording over the original.



Same here. 
And after a ton of listens (I accidentally left it on repeat while working) I don't think it's _that _bad, but still the original version is so much better...


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## fps (Jun 24, 2020)

Metropolis said:


> What... Listening to Gojira's L'Enfant Sauvage now, damn this has balls. It's really modern in my opinion, and sounds nothing alike this compressed shit.



I was listening to one of the new Lamb Of God tracks, Memento Mori. OK it was on a spotify playlist but it seemed to me so compressed that the intro with the child's voice was as loud as the band coming in. Ridiculous!


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## fps (Jun 24, 2020)

p0ke said:


> Same here.
> And after a ton of listens (I accidentally left it on repeat while working) I don't think it's _that _bad, but still the original version is so much better...



Yeah change is hard haha, I like them both. The original has more energy, the new one I like the vocals. I wonder if the new one works better out of speakers rather than in headphones which is how I listen to most things for practical reasons?


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 24, 2020)

The guitar tone sounds like what I was working with in the early 2000's with the Line6 POD, Zoom 606. I have no idea how it turned out THAT bad.

Vocals are better than the original IMO.


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## Vyn (Jul 6, 2020)

So I'm bumping this after having gotten over the initial original outrage... I actually like both versions equally. They both have a place, I think it actually ties the two eras of In Flames together rather well.


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## Adieu (Jul 7, 2020)

Kaura said:


> What do you think? Personally, I hate it. Which is funny because I actually like modern IF but being accustomed to the gritty sound of the original (which I've always kinda hated) this just feels wrong.




Yup it lacks the drive of the original

Also, quick hint to bands like these: if your growly-screamy lyrics are this mediocre, maybe DON'T spell them out in plain text in your video??? People might otherwise mishear and suspect there's hidden depth or something somewhere in there


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 24, 2020)

Pinball Map is my favorite song from Clayman, so this is just... bad. They fucking kiilllled the chorus so bad.


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## Demiurge (Jul 24, 2020)

Oof- that's even worse. And what's the conceit of the video supposed to be: video game, actual pinball, comic books? It's a mess.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Jul 24, 2020)

What the fuck are they doing? You don't fuck with perfection.


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## Atefred (Jul 24, 2020)

Damn... Silver lining is we get to see just how fine a line there is in between a truly great song and a piece of crap. I guess.


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## Kaura (Jul 24, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pinball Map is my favorite song from Clayman, so this is just... bad. They fucking kiilllled the chorus so bad.




Holy shit. That's even worse than Clayman. The whole song sounds like it was recorded in a garage, especially the dead ass drums.

Also, what the hell was that pre-breakdown. Avenged Sevenfold called, they want their spooky kindergarten horror movie riffs back.


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## mastapimp (Jul 24, 2020)

God damn you In Flames! I want to love them again so badly but it's a lost cause...


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## Vyn (Jul 24, 2020)

- Themes is alright
- Only For The Weak is actually fucking ruined
- Bullet Ride is fine, passable
- Pinball Map is fine
- Am used to Clayman by now

I... I can't believe the did that to Only For The Weak. Fuck. They took ALL of the intensity out of the vocals.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 24, 2020)

Man I can't get over how bad Pinball Map got slaughtered. That chorus bloooows so fucking much. Also checked out Only for the Weak and no shit the vocals were ruined.


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## Adieu (Jul 24, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pinball Map is my favorite song from Clayman, so this is just... bad. They fucking kiilllled the chorus so bad.




Sounds like EMG HZs into a Line 6 Spyder into an MG cab


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## Leviathus (Jul 24, 2020)

Holy shit, make it stop.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 24, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Sounds like EMG HZs into a Line 6 Spyder into an MG cab



I've gotten better tones with my EMG HZ-loaded Jazzmaster. 

Seriously, still don't understand how to go from having THE iconinc Fredman 5150 death metal sound, to that generic hunka shit.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jul 24, 2020)

Aw come on guys it’s not... no, it is fucking bad. I was ok with Clayman. The rest of this sounds like weak guitar plugins recorded inside a couch. Yuck. And they added stupid touches here and there that just annoy me. I do like a lot of the newer vocals though and would like them mixed to the original instruments because Anders is too loud. 

Glad I have no more suspense and will just wait for the rest of the original album to come out (I preordered, yeah..). The instrumental track is kinda cool. But the rest of the re-recordings are like waiting for childbirth and a turd drops out instead. Welp, back to sick fucking OSDM for the rest of the year... screw this and go listen to Undeath.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jul 24, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've gotten better tones with my EMG HZ-loaded Jazzmaster.
> 
> Seriously, still don't understand how to go from having THE iconinc Fredman 5150 death metal sound, to that generic hunka shit.



i want to know what the hell they used just to know to avoid it. WHY? Why In Flames?


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## KailM (Jul 25, 2020)

Listen to the guitar tone at 2:32. This is what In Flames should sound like.


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## Metropolis (Jul 25, 2020)

KailM said:


> Listen to the guitar tone at 2:32. This is what In Flames should sound like.




They totally ruined it with the Avenged Sevenfold'ish spooky harmonic minor lead  Rhythm guitars in re-recorded version sound like they had free amp sim every one uses, settings at noon with the generic Ownhammer free Mesa ir.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 25, 2020)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> i want to know what the hell they used just to know to avoid it. WHY? Why In Flames?



I think they use Kempers now?


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 25, 2020)

Atefred said:


> Damn... Silver lining is we get to see just how fine a line there is in between a truly great song and a piece of crap. I guess.



Yeah, crazy isn’t it. Just goes to show that the performance and production really DOES make a difference.



Adieu said:


> Sounds like EMG HZs into a Line 6 Spyder into an MG cab



Yes! I had the HZ into an MGDFX back in the day. It sounds like that but with all the treble rolled off. So not just shit, but dull shit.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 26, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Yeah, crazy isn’t it. Just goes to show that the performance and production really DOES make a difference.



A massive difference and it really makes you think how many bands had amazing songs or albums that fall flat because of the production decisions. 

It’s better than Clayman but how did a band of seasoned musicians with countless albums under their belt think that was an ok mix. Never mind remixing an old classic album but to simply release music that sounds like a YouTube fan cover is so odd. People in their homes are regularly getting better tones and mixes than this. It’s bizzare. 

It’s disappointing they did this project because the last album was amazing and my favourite full album since Clayman. It didn’t get the love it deserved but now this will shadow the band for the rest of their career.


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## Chiba666 (Jul 26, 2020)

That’s part of my life I won’t get back.
Why won’t they put us out if our misery and fold the band name before the legacy is well and truly tarnished. Not like there are any founder members left, that old argument. Rename the band Clayman and move on.
In Jesper we trust, in Anders we do not


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## Boofchuck (Jul 26, 2020)

I just listened to Only for the Weak.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Jul 26, 2020)

This is the first time I listen to In Flames, I think people are a bit harsh on the mix, the original version sounds more metal but not really bigger in my opinion, more compressed drums and scooped guitars. The mixing on the new one was done by non metal people I think? Maybe he was trying to make it so it sounds listenable on the most devices. Sometimes as you add punch you loose clarity (especially with bass boosted speakers or headphones, which people really seem to love for hip-hop and whatever is popular), maybe that's what he was going for..


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 26, 2020)

You can come up with any excuse but you *can't* tell me that guitar tone is better than the original.  It's so midrangey and honky and has no body at all.


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## I play music (Jul 26, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You can come up with any excuse but you *can't* tell me that guitar tone is better than the original.  It's so *midrangey and honky* and has no body at all.


Djent tone. 
Maybe they used Juggernaut pickups and a precision drive 
I also don't like it but some people these days seem to be crazy about midrange honk


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## Boofchuck (Jul 26, 2020)

I mean I love a lot of mids but this just sounds soooo lifeless and weak.

In fact I think this production is only for the weak.


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## oneblackened (Jul 26, 2020)

That mix is weird. I don't know how else to describe it. It sounds like plastic.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 26, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pinball Map is my favorite song from Clayman, so this is just... bad. They fucking kiilllled the chorus so bad.



what. the. fuck. There is zero balls to the guitar tones in this compared to the original. Plus it's super neutered in the bass compared to the OG track. 

This was perfect.


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## Xaios (Jul 27, 2020)

I'm surprised to be saying this, but I actually didn't mind the new version of Pinball Map. Yeah the mix is weak like all of the re-recordings, but I like some of the musical touches like the new vocal harmony in the chorus. It didn't deviate much from the original, and I didn't feel like it suffered when it did. It's probably the only one I'd ever listen to again.

The rest range from competently meh (Bullet Ride) to outright awful (Only for the Weak, Clayman).


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## Dyingsea (Jul 27, 2020)

Has In Flames really recorded anything decent sounding engineering-wise post Colony? After that is when everything went to the wet carboard sound (waits for the calamity to ensue)... but honestly I'd rather listen to the great organic, warm, and dynamic sound of Jester Race than anything.


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## Choop (Jul 27, 2020)

Dyingsea said:


> Has In Flames really recorded anything decent sounding engineering-wise post Colony? After that is when everything went to the wet carboard sound (waits for the calamity to ensue)... but honestly I'd rather listen to the great organic, warm, and dynamic sound of Jester Race than anything.



Clayman, haha.

*Actually, I think the production on Soundtrack To Your Escape is pretty good, too bad the songs are hit & miss IMO.


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## TedEH (Jul 27, 2020)

Xaios said:


> I actually didn't mind the new version of Pinball Map.


Pinball Map has always been one of my favourite In Flames tunes, and this version has probably been the most "painful" of the bunch for me. Some of the vocal flourishes that really stuck for me are gone and replaced with new vocals that wouldn't be terrible on their own but aren't better than what was there before. The original, to my ears, was pointed - where this new one feels like the melodies are kind of arbitrary. I don't know how to explain it.

I'm willing to admit that the production style being completely off is going to bias me towards not wanting to like other elements though. Maybe I'd have liked this version if the mix wasn't so flat.


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## Adieu (Jul 27, 2020)

Maybe they realized they're becoming a "dad rock band"... and made the conscious marketing decision to dial in a sound "that won't piss off mommy"?


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## Metropolis (Jul 27, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Maybe they realized they're becoming a "dad rock band"... and made the conscious marketing decision to dial in a sound "that won't piss off mommy"?



That's why they hired this guy to do mixing for the dad rock sound...
https://www.discogs.com/artist/37765-Chris-Lord-Alge

Original is mixed by Fredrik Nordström who has worked with names like Dimmu Borgir, Opeth, Arch Enemy, Soilwork, Dark Tranquillity... you name it. They did all the early albums with him.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 27, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Pinball Map has always been one of my favourite In Flames tunes, and this version has probably been the most "painful" of the bunch for me. Some of the vocal flourishes that really stuck for me are gone and replaced with new vocals that wouldn't be terrible on their own but aren't better than what was there before. The original, to my ears, was pointed - where this new one feels like the melodies are kind of arbitrary. I don't know how to explain it.
> 
> I'm willing to admit that the production style being completely off is going to bias me towards not wanting to like other elements though. Maybe I'd have liked this version if the mix wasn't so flat.



The Chorus is made worse by the auto-tune sounding background vocals. Thats what kills it for me. And as someone said before; they added that A7X-as-fuck harmony lead and it's like... Nooooo. 

I'm still amazed at how bad the guitar tone is. Decided to check out I, The Mask and honestly I think the tone is *worse* there.


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## gnoll (Jul 28, 2020)

Maybe they just make money and are comfortable. Why care then? What's the incentive to try and do something that's good? It's unnecessary work.


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## Xaios (Jul 28, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Pinball Map has always been one of my favourite In Flames tunes


Fair enough, the original wasn't really one of Clayman's standout tracks for me, so I guess I have no real attachment.


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## Descent (Jul 28, 2020)

Awful...very plastic sounding.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 28, 2020)

Metropolis said:


> That's why they hired this guy to do mixing for the dad rock sound...
> https://www.discogs.com/artist/37765-Chris-Lord-Alge
> 
> Original is mixed by Fredrik Nordström who has worked with names like Dimmu Borgir, Opeth, Arch Enemy, Soilwork, Dark Tranquillity... you name it. They did all the early albums with him.



I saw that the other day and almost shit myself. CLA has done some AWESOME mixes and I’ve learned a LOT from that dude just by listening to the albums he’s done. I really couldn’t believe he mixed the In Flames stuff by the way it sounded. I have to assume he loaded the tracks up, ran it through his wall of compressors and called it a day. I certainly wouldn’t gauge his abilities or history off the In Flames mixes, not by a long shot. 

CLA has done some of the biggest records in the last 30 years, that guy has had his hands on more platinum albums than many in the biz and I have to wonder if In Flames went with him to get that commercial sheen on the re-recordings. I don’t know if they were thrilled with what they heard when he sent the mixes back, but man....definitely not what I’d expect from CLA.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 31, 2020)

RevDrucifer said:


> I saw that the other day and almost shit myself. CLA has done some AWESOME mixes and I’ve learned a LOT from that dude just by listening to the albums he’s done. I really couldn’t believe he mixed the In Flames stuff by the way it sounded. I have to assume he loaded the tracks up, ran it through his wall of compressors and called it a day. I certainly wouldn’t gauge his abilities or history off the In Flames mixes, not by a long shot.
> 
> CLA has done some of the biggest records in the last 30 years, that guy has had his hands on more platinum albums than many in the biz and I have to wonder if In Flames went with him to get that commercial sheen on the re-recordings. I don’t know if they were thrilled with what they heard when he sent the mixes back, but man....definitely not what I’d expect from CLA.



Hearing some more recent albums he's done (Billy Talent, 3 Days Grace, Halestorm, etc), they sound MUCH better. Makes me wonder if this was the band's choice. Apparently he mixed I, The Mask and I think that sounds dryer than the Clayman rerecordings.


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## MFB (Jul 31, 2020)

Pinball Map's re-recorded version showed up on my Spotify releases, it's not even that it's _bad,_ it's just that compared to the original, it's so incredibly underwhelming. It has zero body or any oomph behind the sound. Guitar are "there" but that's about it, they don't make any impressions on you with their tone. Drums lack any 'big-ness' to them as well, the original those cymbals fucking _crash_ and in this it's like, "oh hey look he hit the cymbal."

Was there even a bass track, or did they just AJFA it?


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## Ataraxia2320 (Aug 1, 2020)

Dyingsea said:


> Has In Flames really recorded anything decent sounding engineering-wise post Colony? After that is when everything went to the wet carboard sound (waits for the calamity to ensue)... but honestly I'd rather listen to the great organic, warm, and dynamic sound of Jester Race than anything.



Sounds of a playground fading sounds like a million bucks. IMO it's their best soundin release. There are some crackers on there too even if the singles are quite radio rock.


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## MFB (Aug 1, 2020)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Sounds of a playground fading sounds like a million bucks. IMO it's their best soundin release. There are some crackers on there too even if the singles are quite radio rock.



You're god damn right it does, but I'm an outright and unashamed SOAPF fanboi,


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## Ataraxia2320 (Aug 1, 2020)

MFB said:


> You're god damn right it does, but I'm an outright and unashamed SOAPF fanboi,




The first single caused most people to ignore it. I only came across it when an Audio Engineer friend showed me the album in a treated room w/ a sub. 

holy low end batman.


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## rokket2005 (Aug 2, 2020)

I remember when SOAPF came out and being surprised that there were good songs on it and that it sounded really good. I didn't really like Come Clarity and ASOP isn't even a fucking In Flames record.


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## Kaura (Sep 1, 2020)

I don't know if this was known but In Flames just released a remaster of the (whole) Clayman album. Unlike the re-recorded songs, the remaster actually sounds pretty good. Not much different from the original but adds a bit of clarity, imo.


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## Mathemagician (Sep 1, 2020)

rokket2005 said:


> ASOP is one of the best fucking In Flames record.




FTFY.


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## MFB (Sep 1, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> FTFY.


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## Mathemagician (Sep 1, 2020)

MFB said:


>



Is there a doctor around? We’ve got lots of sick people in need of new ears, taste, and appreciation for some of the best choruses of the mid-00’s.


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