# Anyone try the Synergy 5050 (fryette) 1u tube poweramp?



## Gmork (May 6, 2018)

I cant believe ive never heard of this before! Why isnt everyone going crazy over it? Im baffled. 
1U, 50w stereo or 100w mono bridged, 6L6s, resonance and presence controls! 
Wow!!
Anyone own or tried it out?


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## op1e (May 6, 2018)

Look up the FB group. They're good about answering questions there. Synergy and MTS seem like mythical unicorns here for some reason. If I go rack power again I want the RT2/50. They go for around $500 used and are midi plus will take any combo of power tubes.


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## crankyrayhanky (May 7, 2018)

If that synergy amp took 34s I'd have one by now
I'm still interested...curious what people think here


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## Bearitone (May 7, 2018)

if you aren’t totally against solidstate check out the AMT SH-100. 
Its a 1U rack _head _but, you can plug any preamp you want into the effects return and the poweramp section has resonance and presence controls.

All their preamps sound f-ing great (very tube like), I bet their power amps do to.


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## Hollowway (May 7, 2018)

What’s the background on this synergy company? They have Friedman stuff, Diezel stuff, Fryette, etc. And apparently they’re all designed by the designers of the actual brands. Seems like I would have heard something about this at some point. I find it difficult to believe that the $399 Diezel pre really is the same circuit as the actual VH4.


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## Gmork (May 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> What’s the background on this synergy company? They have Friedman stuff, Diezel stuff, Fryette, etc. And apparently they’re all designed by the designers of the actual brands. Seems like I would have heard something about this at some point. I find it difficult to believe that the $399 Diezel pre really is the same circuit as the actual VH4.


RIGHT!?!? The synergy 5050 is made by fryette and ya! The modules that fit into either a 1 module unit or a 2 module 1u rack are actually made by the respective companies! Very cool! 
Even here in canada i see the 5050 poweramp going for only $1500 free shipping! I honestly expected twice that


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## diagrammatiks (May 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> What’s the background on this synergy company? They have Friedman stuff, Diezel stuff, Fryette, etc. And apparently they’re all designed by the designers of the actual brands. Seems like I would have heard something about this at some point. I find it difficult to believe that the $399 Diezel pre really is the same circuit as the actual VH4.



definitely not with only 2 tubes. maybe they can make it sound close?


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## Hollowway (May 7, 2018)

Yeah, it’s weird that it’s only 2 preamp tubes. I can’t tell if the syn1 housing thing is necessary, and if that also has a preamp tube? I wouldn’t think so, but the syn1 is too expensive to just be a little housing for it.

I also think it’s weird if Diezel and Friedman actually designed these exactly the same as their own amps. It would seem to be a conflict of interest for them, since people would likely pay $399 and never buy the actual amp. 

Right now I’m skeptical, because I’m assuming that these just waaaay too much in the power amps of diezels, Friedman’s, etc, to cop the exact tone with one of these preamp boxes into a generic power amp.


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## diagrammatiks (May 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, it’s weird that it’s only 2 preamp tubes. I can’t tell if the syn1 housing thing is necessary, and if that also has a preamp tube? I wouldn’t think so, but the syn1 is too expensive to just be a little housing for it.
> 
> I also think it’s weird if Diezel and Friedman actually designed these exactly the same as their own amps. It would seem to be a conflict of interest for them, since people would likely pay $399 and never buy the actual amp.
> 
> Right now I’m skeptical, because I’m assuming that these just waaaay too much in the power amps of diezels, Friedman’s, etc, to cop the exact tone with one of these preamp boxes into a generic power amp.



the older egnater mod and rm modules actually had a shared input tube and then the two tubes. 

Most of the Friedman designs are possible. Some of the diezel channels might be possible. 

Something like the 5153 red channel has too many stages. They wouldn't be able to do it unless some of the later stages were replaced with solid state.


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## laxu (May 7, 2018)

With modular units like these people usually just pick a few and stick with them rather than swapping the modules in and out. I think I would appreciate the modules in a store to pick my sounds but would not want a pile of them that I need to swap in and out as needed.

The Synergy stuff is pretty expensive. For a dual channel setup you're already about 2000 euros in just for the preamp and poweramp module or the head version. Almost 3k when you add just two modules. I'd rather buy a Helix or Axe-Fx 2/AX8 and a poweramp for that money.


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## mnemonic (May 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> What’s the background on this synergy company? They have Friedman stuff, Diezel stuff, Fryette, etc. And apparently they’re all designed by the designers of the actual brands. Seems like I would have heard something about this at some point. I find it difficult to believe that the $399 Diezel pre really is the same circuit as the actual VH4.



Iirc it’s Dave Friedman, Steve Fryette and Bruce Egnater (he designed the original MTS stuff and at one point licenced it to Randall). They took a different approach to the older MTS stuff and have dealt directly with manufacturers to get their own circuits.

The synergy stuff is compatible with old MTS gear so I imagine it’s the same as that stuff. You need the syn1 or syn2 housing, or one of the old Randall/egnater housings. It has V1 in it, then V2 and V3 in the module. Then the phase inverter and powetubes in the poweramp. So only two tubes in the module but up to four gain stages. Which is enough for most amps.

If you add the cost of:

1.) the module
2.) the module housing
3.) a poweramp

Or

1.) the module
2.) one of their amp heads

It adds up quick and you’re not saving much money over just buying a Friedman BE or Diezel. Much more than just paying $399. Plus the poweramp will be different from both of those. I wouldn’t expect the same, but probably ‘similar’.

Check out clips on YouTube some of them sound really cool. There’s a big long thread about them on TGP.

This whole project has been ‘in the works’ and ‘coming this year’ since like 2012, the amp heads I think are still not even out yet. Nice to see it materialise though.

I think they’re working on an ENGL Savage module and something high-gain Bogner right now, there are some pics on the TGP thread.


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## TedintheShed (May 7, 2018)

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Synergy


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## Hollowway (May 7, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Iirc it’s Dave Friedman, Steve Fryette and Bruce Egnater (he designed the original MTS stuff and at one point licenced it to Randall). They took a different approach to the older MTS stuff and have dealt directly with manufacturers to get their own circuits.
> 
> The synergy stuff is compatible with old MTS gear so I imagine it’s the same as that stuff. You need the syn1 or syn2 housing, or one of the old Randall/egnater housings. It has V1 in it, then V2 and V3 in the module. Then the phase inverter and powetubes in the poweramp. So only two tubes in the module but up to four gain stages. Which is enough for most amps.
> 
> ...



Ah, yeah, ok. Well, that’s likely to appeal mostly to studios and people who like multiple amps. Single amp guys are probably better off buying the real deal.

Any idea of the construction of these? Like, the circuit board, pot mounts, etc?


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## jsmalleus (May 7, 2018)

I don't have a real SLO or VH4 to compare them to, but those modules sound fantastic through the rt 2/50 op1e mentioned. With a full synergy rig you might not be saving a ton of $ over buying one of the actual amps, but you'd be saving a considerable amount over buying both of them and it only adds up to more savings if you are satisfied with more modules over actual amps. You can also buy the syn1 or syn2 and insert them as extra channels in your existing amp (given it has a fx loop), which negates the separate power amp cost.

I'm really looking forward to the new modules, I already have the old gen bogner xtc and jf ubersonic (uberschall) modules, so I might hold off on the new bogner modules, but I plan on picking up the ENGL savage and BE/HBE combined modules when those land. If I tried to get the full amps of those and the other old gen ones I have modules for, they'd better run off of cigarette lighter power because I'd be living out of my car lol.

I'm curious what folks think of the syn5050 as well though. I almost went for one due to the 1u and lower weight, but since it doesn't take el34's & one of the main complaints about the older modular stuff was that most of them had a similar baked in sound, I decided to get the rt 2/50, vht 2/50/2, and mesa 295 instead so I had some different power amp flavors available for different modules. I assumed the syn5050 will probably sound similar to the vht given it's Fryette designed, but that might not be the case after all. Now that I have the modules and the tower of power to run em through, I've been selling off some amps because I don't really feel like I need them anymore & it takes a lot less space to store modules than amps. As those go it's turning out to be better for my wallet, easier for new "amps" to go unnoticed by the girlfriend, and in terms of the jam room space - there's so much room for activities


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## mnemonic (May 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Ah, yeah, ok. Well, that’s likely to appeal mostly to studios and people who like multiple amps. Single amp guys are probably better off buying the real deal.
> 
> Any idea of the construction of these? Like, the circuit board, pot mounts, etc?



I would presume top-tier and better than the Randall stuff, as last I heard it was mainly being lead by Steve Fryette and Dave Friedman, and their stuff is solid. Also I don’t imagine the likes of Mike Soldano, Peter Diezel, etc would allow their names on the modules if it wasn’t great quality, given their reputations of making very high quality amps. 

There were gut shots of the modules as they were being built on their Facebook page also.


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## jsmalleus (May 7, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Any idea of the construction of these? Like, the circuit board, pot mounts, etc?



The construction on mine seems pretty solid, the left module slot of the syn2 is a bit tight but other than that I have no complaints. Some folks on the mts forums have reported issues with theirs. From what I've seen so far, synergy has been good about rectifying any issues with the units though. Hopefully as more batches have gone out they have upped QC for any issues that might have been somewhat prevalent in the initial batch.


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## Scordare (May 7, 2018)

I am interested in hearing more about the SYN5050 also...especially how hot it runs. I see 2 cooling fans in there which is promising.. I had a Mesa 20/20 and you could fry eggs on that thing. A 1 space amp isn't really 1 space if you gotta have an empty space or 2 for cooling.


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## MASS DEFECT (May 7, 2018)

and the transformer is so small. probably that will help with the heat.


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## Gmork (May 8, 2018)

Just wanted to intervene a bit and mention that personally im ONLY interested in the poweramp itself. I think itd be cool to run with a peavey rockmaster or various other rack preamps in a 2u case! Or with a tightmetalpro or something


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## Hollowway (May 9, 2018)

I don’t think the idea of using the pre into the loop of a regular amp head is really going to get you an approximation of the actual amp emulated. There is way too much tone coming out of the power amp section to dependably just swap out the pre’s and hope to get a replica. I suppose if you had an amp head like a Road King, or something that would let you select different power tubes, that would work. 

Anyone want to weigh in on why they’d prefer the whole module idea to a Kemper or axe fx?


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## diagrammatiks (May 9, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> I don’t think the idea of using the pre into the loop of a regular amp head is really going to get you an approximation of the actual amp emulated. There is way too much tone coming out of the power amp section to dependably just swap out the pre’s and hope to get a replica. I suppose if you had an amp head like a Road King, or something that would let you select different power tubes, that would work.
> 
> Anyone want to weigh in on why they’d prefer the whole module idea to a Kemper or axe fx?



because tubes

Also I don't see any issue running it in a tight rack if they warranty for that usage. If it blows up at least its not your fault.


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## jsmalleus (May 9, 2018)

Yeah, the modules definitely take on the character of whatever power amp they are run through. I imagine they're initially based on the original preamp circuit and then tweaked around the synergy/fryette power amp depending how much time and which route the amp makers take in making it match the original vs the synergy power amp. Depending on how all that designing/testing played out, the closest approximation to the actual amp is probably somewhere between the two. The three cathode switch setting on the synergy modules probably help a bit in adapting for different types of coloration as well.

It makes sense that lots of folks looking at the synergy stuff would be folks looking to get as close to the actual amp as possible. I'm probably a little easier to please in that I'm typically chasing characteristics of amps more so than an exact match of any in particular, so I'm just thrilled to be able to have that SLO grit or VH4 grind available to me. I haven't tried the SYN5050 yet, but based only on the amps I have run those two modules through so far, the power amp I'd most like to run it through is actually in a regular amp head. I went the route of using the Syn2, helix, and a rack power amp instead though because it fits in one box and is easy to change everything with one press of a footswitch.


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## op1e (May 9, 2018)

Considering I got my rm100 for $350 (no modules) your initial investment will be small. There's a guy making a replacement midi board for $200. So that and installation you could run dual channel modules for around 6-700 bucks depending on your tech and how cheap you get your head. As for power tubes in the head, you can run 2 pairs of different types. The optimal setup most say is KT88/el34 to get the grit of the brit and American thunder in one package. I sent in a KH-3 and had it modded to the Engl preamp (Angel E) with 4 band EQ and it's pretty aggressive. I go back and forth with my 6505mh into the same power section and it's hard to decide between the two. More grit and aggression with the Angel, more good fizz and different character with the 6505. I also have the SL+ which is the best stock Marshall mod probably. Not as gritty as I would like, need to do the 800 eq mod on it. Last module is just your standard Blackface clean, which takes pedals really well.

I agree the syn1 is a bit much to get your feet wet. And the syn2 at $800 unloaded is also pricey considering you can get a used ax8 or a new Helix LT for not much more. I don't see anything in the new line that entices me much more than the old Salvation Mods you can get. It's the 2 channels that gets them over though.


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## narad (May 9, 2018)

The SLO is an interesting example because even the hot rod 50/100s, which I'm told have SLO pres (or maybe the avenger, I can't remember), don't really deliver that close of a SLO tone. Not the right transformers. Same reason I don't bother with the jet city stuff. Seems like you'd need configurable transformers -- saw Kyle Rhodes talking a bit about maybe pursing that, or rather begrudgingly admitting he's researching down that avenue.


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## mnemonic (May 9, 2018)

Every once in a while I look into the module stuff, synergy and salvation in particular, but there’s a high cost to entry with the chassis (the old egnater and Randall stuff is impossible to find here), and I just know it would be a money black hole, you’re always just one more module away from completion. 

Plus there are certain compromises made with a rig like that versus an amp head or versus a good modeler (which has its own compromises). 



narad said:


> The SLO is an interesting example because even the hot rod 50/100s, which I'm told have SLO pres (or maybe the avenger, I can't remember), don't really deliver that close of a SLO tone. Not the right transformers. Same reason I don't bother with the jet city stuff. Seems like you'd need configurable transformers -- saw Kyle Rhodes talking a bit about maybe pursing that, or rather begrudgingly admitting he's researching down that avenue.



The hot rods have other changes in the preamp, different pot values and a few resistors and capacitors. It’s more of a hot rodded jcm800 I think (thus the name I guess). But modding the preamp to SLO spec isn’t hard, like 8 parts or something. 

Avenger is I think just the lead channel out of the SLO, and no fx loop (though I think you can have one as an option). So no clean channel bleed and no coloration from the fx loop, plus onetics transformers rather than deyoung. 

Configurable transformers sounds interesting... maybe with multiple primaries that are wound differently with different impedences. I bet something like that would end up giant and heavy though.


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## narad (May 9, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Configurable transformers sounds interesting... maybe with multiple primaries that are wound differently with different impedences. I bet something like that would end up giant and heavy though.



To be clearer it came up in the question of ~"Have you ever thought of incorporating a modern switching power supply into an amp?", so presumably not the multiple primaries / tapping different spots thing. It's a funny interview though -- too bad it's crammed in like 3 hours of chat on one of those Tone Talk things with Dave Friedman, makes it hard to link to. He really has the expression of like, "C'mon man, you're ruining my winter NAMM 2019 surprise here"


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## wakjob (May 9, 2018)

The idea of having a module with your name on it,
and it not sounding as good as the next one that has
your competitors name on it is preposterous.

Who wouldn't want their module to be the most 
kick a$$?

The competition factor is a plus in my book.

Plus, ask Dave Friedman what he thinks about
the current EL34 & 6L6 offerings out there on 
the market right now.

He's big on the Russian military grade 5881's atm.


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## wakjob (May 9, 2018)

The only thing holding me back is the entry price
for the receiving units (Syn1 / Syn2)

The fact that they "reconfigure" the voltages
and whatnot for all the different modules loaded 
into them is super cool.

The ability to have a whole new boutique amp for
every birthday and/or X-mas @ $399.00 is too tempting.

Also, don't let the two preamp tube thing scare you away,
that's four gain stages. Plus the phase inverter tube 
is in the Syn1 / Syn2 and power amp.


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## mnemonic (May 10, 2018)

narad said:


> To be clearer it came up in the question of ~"Have you ever thought of incorporating a modern switching power supply into an amp?", so presumably not the multiple primaries / tapping different spots thing. It's a funny interview though -- too bad it's crammed in like 3 hours of chat on one of those Tone Talk things with Dave Friedman, makes it hard to link to. He really has the expression of like, "C'mon man, you're ruining my winter NAMM 2019 surprise here"



Oh yeah I remember that, he was talking about power transformers. I never knew that most of the current draw required goes to the tube heaters. Certainly would be cool to see.


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## jsmalleus (May 10, 2018)

The buy-in price can be pretty off-putting, so I just wanted to offer up a little info in case it helps ease that for anyone else. I recently picked up a SYN1 too so I didn't have to haul a 100lbs rig up two flights of stairs to use my modules at my desk and got $100 off on it using an ebay 20% off coupon. They run those 10%-20% off coupons or 10% ebay bucks promos pretty regularly. Sweetwater carries the synergy stuff and has an ebay store so it can take a little off the top on the units or modules (or anything sweetwater carries really) if you are patient. If they hadn't capped it at $100 I might have sprung for the SYN5050 instead while the getting was good, but it's a nice chunk off if you're looking at the syn units or modules.


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## mnemonic (May 10, 2018)

I’m really curious to hear from some experienced people what the syn5050 sounds like. I have my doubts with those tiny transformers that will fit in a 1u rack unit.

My 2/50/2 will have much larger transformers than that and even they are not that big compared to my amp heads.

I guess if anyone can pull it off it will be Fryette, he seems to really know what he’s talking about when it comes to tube amps.


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## jsmalleus (Jun 6, 2018)

Just a heads up ebay is running one of those 20% off coupons today that I mentioned in my previous post. Capped at $100 but good for snagging a SYN1 or a module (or any other piece of gear today for that matter) on the cheap. Code is PICKDADSGIFT and ends at 7pm pst today.


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## Elric (Jun 6, 2018)

Gmork said:


> Even here in canada i see the 5050 poweramp going for only $1500 free shipping! I honestly expected twice that


LOL? I was expecting HALF that. That Synergy stuff is insanely expensive to build a functional rig.


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## TedEH (Jun 6, 2018)

The price doesn't surprise me too much. I honestly don't understand power amp prices though. If I can buy a full amp head for $1500-$2000, why are power amps more than that on their own most of the time?


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## MASS DEFECT (Jun 6, 2018)

Maybe, because with Tube poweramps, it's like you are buying 2 amps since they can be stereo or bridged. And they are specially built to be transparent and with high headroom that will work better with preamps. Plus they have fans, better heat sinks, and have form factor options (rack vs standalone).


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## TedEH (Jun 7, 2018)

Making something rackmountable doesn't cost a thousand dollars. My full amps have fans and heat sinks. Those also have full preamps, switches, channels, effects loops, more tubes, more complicated (I would assume) circuits/designs, the same big transformers, etc. I mean, solid state power amps don't inflate prices like that, despite doing all of those things as well. I've got an 1100watt PA amp that was all of $400 new I think. It's great. It does all of the above except that there's no tubes. I understand that tube amps are more expensive for a number of reasons, but thousands more? I dunno, something about that whole setup strikes me as off.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 7, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Making something rackmountable doesn't cost a thousand dollars. My full amps have fans and heat sinks. Those also have full preamps, switches, channels, effects loops, more tubes, more complicated (I would assume) circuits/designs, the same big transformers, etc. I mean, solid state power amps don't inflate prices like that, despite doing all of those things as well. I've got an 1100watt PA amp that was all of $400 new I think. It's great. It does all of the above except that there's no tubes. I understand that tube amps are more expensive for a number of reasons, but thousands more? I dunno, something about that whole setup strikes me as off.



because you aren't saving much money with just a power amp. It's not like the power amp part is just half the amp and should cost half as much. It actually ends up being much more to separate the preamp and the amp. 

you have to pay for twice as much of the small things like switches, chassis, etc.

the biggest issue is the power transformer. The cost of a power transformer specced to carry a full power amp and preamp isn't much more expensive then just the power amp transformer. once you build a separate preamp you need another power transformer just for the preamp. The output transformer cost is also all in the power amp.


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## mnemonic (Jun 7, 2018)

Let’s not forget amp head = 1x preamp, 1x poweramp 

Rackmount power amp = 2x poweramps (it’s stereo after all, with two output transformers, usually all custom wound so they’ll fit in the limited rack space). 

Rack poweramps are also made and sold at much lower numbers than amp heads. There are certain fixed costs involved in developing and building tube amps. If you can only spread that out over 500 units made, it will cost more per unit. If instead you’re building a head, which appeals to a wider market and will sell better, you can maybe make 2,000 or more units. Boom, fixed costs spread over more units = lower cost per unit. 

At the end of the day if you think it costs too much, you’re free to not buy it. Rack gear isn’t very desirable these days so resale sucks, so chances are you will find great used prices.


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## jsmalleus (Jun 7, 2018)

I think mnemonic hit the nail on the head with he economics of it, regarding the SYN5050 specifically I think it's largely because it's Fryette designed and if you check prices on his stuff the 2x50w offering is a 2/50/2 and it's $1600 new. The guys working on the synergy stuff are pretty well regarded in the amp making industry & I don't think any of the ones I've seen mentioned have a reputation for cheaping out on components. I don't know much about component costs, but I imagine getting transformers that are robust enough to meet those guys' standards and also fit in a 1U tube amp doesn't come too cheap either. Combine that with the volume they expect to move and some type of margin to incentivize dealers to carry them and you get a relatively high retail price.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 7, 2018)

I also don't see how it's that overpriced. Grabbing the power amp and the preamp rack and all the modules will cost you way more then a Kemper...

but the power amp is only 1200. 

Using off the shelf parts It would cost me somewhere around 800 to build a power amp and I couldn't get it into a 1u chassis without having someone custom make the transformers for me.


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## TedEH (Jun 7, 2018)

Looking it up now, it seems like power amp prices aren't quite as exaggerated as I remembered. I was thinking $4k-$6k for JUST a power amp. Which, to me is ridiculous and I can't remember where I saw these numbers, so maybe I'm imagining things. Or maybe I was looking at bass amps? I might just be crazy. Still strikes me as a bit weird though. Seems like there'd be a market for a straightforward, mono, basically just the power section out of a decent amp kind of a unit, for a reasonable price.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 7, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Looking it up now, it seems like power amp prices aren't quite as exaggerated as I remembered. I was thinking $4k-$6k for JUST a power amp. Which, to me is ridiculous and I can't remember where I saw these numbers, so maybe I'm imagining things. Or maybe I was looking at bass amps? I might just be crazy. Still strikes me as a bit weird though. Seems like there'd be a market for a straightforward, mono, basically just the power section out of a decent amp kind of a unit, for a reasonable price.



the Fryette power station is 600.


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## TedEH (Jun 7, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> the Fryette power station is 600.


Closer to $1k in CAD. Also, I was not aware this existed. Also, being an attenuator made me think it wasn't an amp at all. Also also also, seems like, again, the fact that this exists should mean that an even cheaper unit that doesn't do all the power soak stuff could/should exist if it doesn't.


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## mnemonic (Jun 7, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Looking it up now, it seems like power amp prices aren't quite as exaggerated as I remembered. I was thinking $4k-$6k for JUST a power amp. Which, to me is ridiculous and I can't remember where I saw these numbers, so maybe I'm imagining things. Or maybe I was looking at bass amps? I might just be crazy. Still strikes me as a bit weird though. Seems like there'd be a market for a straightforward, mono, basically just the power section out of a decent amp kind of a unit, for a reasonable price.



Maybe you were looking at tube hifi amps. I’ve seen some in the £20k range, extreme cork-sniffery there.

There have been mono poweramps made, most recently the powerstation as mentioned above, the only others I can think of are the Peavey Classic 60 and Classic 120, which were mono versions of the 60/60 and 120/120 stereo poweramps (both 6L6).

There’s also the EL84 50/50, not sure if they did a mono version of that.

The Randall RT2/50 is stereo but I think can be bridged to mono, if I remember correctly, which isn’t a common feature on tube poweramps. Those go cheap used.

Edit-never mind I looked it up, it can’t be bridged mono but it can be set up to switch between channels, so you could have different tubes on each side.


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## TedEH (Jun 7, 2018)

I was definitely thinking of stuff like Engl or Mesa power amps, not hifi stuff. I know that bass power amps can be pricy, I think mostly cause there's not a lot of them being made anymore (if any) now that class D amps are a thing. I know someone with what I thiiiiiink was an Engl power amp (it a 100w per side) and it was insanely pricy at the time he got it. Easily way more expensive to get that and the preamp separate than just buying a normal amp head.

Maybe I'm just suffering from being in Canadia. It's tougher to find this kind of stuff for reasonable prices.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 7, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Closer to $1k in CAD. Also, I was not aware this existed. Also, being an attenuator made me think it wasn't an amp at all. Also also also, seems like, again, the fact that this exists should mean that an even cheaper unit that doesn't do all the power soak stuff could/should exist if it doesn't.



like I said there's no real reason to do this. Mooer has a little 20 watt called the tube engine that just came out but it's also 500-600 bucks retail. It's got a custom chassis.

Just think about it this way. 

Something like the 5150 III has 6 or so preamp tubes. So there would be a bit of savings there going to just the power amp of that amp..

But, let's just assume a standard high gain amp with 4 preamp tubes and 2 power tubes at 50 watts...

output transformer - Can't save any money here. It's only used for the power amp. 

power transformer - preamp tubes barely draw any current. Heaters draw a lot. However, 3 preamp tubes draw about as much as 1 power tube. The biggest cost here is still supplying the power tubes. Additionally, most off the shelf transformers are wound with extra heater current. You don't really save any money here. 

tubes and parts - 3 tubes plus sockets and electronic components. You can save 50 dollars here. 

Chassis - needs to be custom made or you have a weird huge chassis with just a power amp. 

It's not much cheaper. 

I don't think anyone could even build you one cheaper unless they were using all Chinese sourced components.


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## MASS DEFECT (Jun 7, 2018)

The Synergy is actually cheaper than the Fryette. I dont think the Fryette does bridge mode at 100w. And it is smaller at 1U. But that small transformer can be the deal changer. It may or may not perform and sound as good as the Fryette.


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## Elric (Jun 8, 2018)

mnemonic said:


> Let’s not forget amp head = 1x preamp, 1x poweramp
> 
> Rackmount power amp = 2x poweramps (it’s stereo after all, with two output transformers, usually all custom wound so they’ll fit in the limited rack space).
> 
> ...


Yes, all good points. Which is why tube rack gear is pretty much dead. Basically if I am going tube these days, it is: amp head. If I am going rack: it is digital where an SS power amp or powered monitor makes sense.



TedEH said:


> Looking it up now, it seems like power amp prices aren't quite as exaggerated as I remembered. I was thinking $4k-$6k for JUST a power amp. Which, to me is ridiculous and I can't remember where I saw these numbers, so maybe I'm imagining things. Or maybe I was looking at bass amps? I might just be crazy. Still strikes me as a bit weird though. Seems like there'd be a market for a straightforward, mono, basically just the power section out of a decent amp kind of a unit, for a reasonable price.


The Fryette PS2 is 50W mono 2U rack mountable. It is like $700. It can do more than a standard power amp but if you just wanted the power section there are so many 50-100W heads with an FX return you could buy for less and you get the preamp too. They're not going to have their transformers scrunched into a tiny box and need a fan either. You wouldn't be limited in tube type or power topology either.

Atomic made a very similar short lived stand alone power amp that flopped.

I was around during the 80s. Racks made sense for a while, they only make a little bit of sense now (mostly for really big acts (IMHO); some of whom are converting to digital). You can still cobble one together used if you are dedicated but that time is pretty much done.

I find the synergy preamp interesting (could run it through a power amp sim and cab sim) but a full blown system is just too much cost for something that (to me anyway) would still feel like it was a compromise (everything going through the same 6L6 power amp section with non-traditional transformers, etc).


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## TedEH (Jun 8, 2018)

Elric said:


> if you just wanted the power section there are so many 50-100W heads with an FX return you could buy for less and you get the preamp too.


I see what you guys mean, I was probably pretty far off with the power amp pricing thing. I don't see the appeal of buying a whole amp for just the power section though. To me, part of the point of the separated power section is to only be carrying around the components you really want. It makes sense in a scenario where you have both of those items already (a pre + a full amp), or maybe you get a really cheap full head to power a preamp you really want to use or something. Or maybe this is gear that won't move around much. But it's potentially really awkward to have to carry a full amp around just to bypass it's preamp to put more gear into it.

In that sense, I really do see the appeal of the 5050 the thread was originally about. A tiny little 2u rack with a 5050 + something like a Triaxis would be pretty cool.


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## Elric (Jun 8, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I see what you guys mean, I was probably pretty far off with the power amp pricing thing. I don't see the appeal of buying a whole amp for just the power section though. To me, part of the point of the separated power section is to only be carrying around the components you really want.



Sure thing and that does make total sense. I do think this is what the rack power amp buyer of today is thinking about... they understand that there is a premium associated with the form factor...

Now who is willing to pay that premium? I guess it really depends on your priorities, budget, etc... I suspect it is just not that many people who are willing to pay it with the different alternative technology in the marketplace today. Really my previous "main rig" was a tube based rack premp+power amp rig; it is now a digital rig with SS power. I suspect a number of people who wanted versatile and compact rigs and were running racks back in the day went this route over time.

I do still find the old school rack rigs fun though which is why I wouldn't mind playing with the synergy stuff or getting something like the PS2 eventually to knock around.Hopefully these folks will get enough business that they will stick around and maybe even prices will come down too. 

Having alternate gear in addition to my main rig is always inspiring here and there.


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## op1e (Jun 10, 2018)

I was talking to my amp tech friend and he said the magic in a head over a rack power amp is the phase inverter output transformer relationship. I would go back and forth between my rack rig with a Rockmaster and power amp to my Peavey Ultra a lot. One thing I noticed was how hard hitting and immediate big iron was in the head. But the closest I got was a Marshall 9005. That thing was supposedly two JCM800 power sections sharing a PT and each with their own GOOD OT. Drake I think. Each side had 2 12ax7 in the input stage. It was like a head, you could run pedals right into it. 4 spaces though. Once you add anything else its time to put it on wheels. I had an 8 space with the 1101, G Major and Rockmaster and a power conditioner.


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## Shask (Jun 10, 2018)

op1e said:


> I was talking to my amp tech friend and he said the magic in a head over a rack power amp is the phase inverter output transformer relationship. I would go back and forth between my rack rig with a Rockmaster and power amp to my Peavey Ultra a lot. One thing I noticed was how hard hitting and immediate big iron was in the head. But the closest I got was a Marshall 9005. That thing was supposedly two JCM800 power sections sharing a PT and each with their own GOOD OT. Drake I think. Each side had 2 12ax7 in the input stage. It was like a head, you could run pedals right into it. 4 spaces though. Once you add anything else its time to put it on wheels. I had an 8 space with the 1101, G Major and Rockmaster and a power conditioner.


The biggest difference between a head and a rack preamp/poweramp is the shared power supply. A head will have a more dynamic feel because they share the same power supply. When the power supply sags, it effects the preamp and poweramp in a head causing the sound to bloom together. In a rack the preamp and poweramp has different power supplies, so it will always feel tighter and stiffer.


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## op1e (Jun 11, 2018)

In a way tighter, I guess. But there's a "push" at a loss for better words that seems more powerful and immediate with a head. Makes sense.


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## Gmork (Aug 22, 2019)

Necro bump! Its been a while does anyone have experience with the sny5050 poweramp? 
(NOT the modules JUST the poweramp itself)

Wonder how it stacks up against the 2/50/2 or 2/90/2 or mesa offerings.


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## c7spheres (Aug 22, 2019)

Gmork said:


> Just wanted to intervene a bit and mention that personally im ONLY interested in the poweramp itself. I think itd be cool to run with a peavey rockmaster or various other rack preamps in a 2u case! Or with a tightmetalpro or something



-The Peavey Classic 50/50 is the perfect pair for the Rockmaster. I had this setup in the 90's when it came out. It's a great setup but it's really got it's own thing going on. If you don't like that thing it's better to try a different preamp. Another power amp will change things a lot but you will never escape the Rockmaster tone no matter what you connect it to. If you love the Rockmaster tone then all a different power amp will do it give more meat to it. It would be like meat with sizzle with a Mesa 2:90. The Peavey classic 50/50 will keep it pretty much the same. It's strange cause the Rockmaster is still very solid state Peavey to me. It was better but not much better than my old Supreme 160 head. Mostly just smoother. It kicks ass for old school metal/ thrash tones though.



Gmork said:


> Necro bump! Its been a while does anyone have experience with the sny5050 poweramp?
> (NOT the modules JUST the poweramp itself)
> 
> Wonder how it stacks up against the 2/50/2 or 2/90/2 or mesa offerings.



- No, but I am interested in the 1u power amp Fryette has been saying is coming soon for that last 5+years now. It looks like a silver Synergy and supposedly will be suited with different modes tailored toward either tube pre's or modellers. It looks cool. I'm all good with my 2-50-2 though, so I don't really care. I'm already in power amp heaven, especially since I run it in class-a mode with the el34's.


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## Elric (Aug 23, 2019)

I haven’t played the Synergy power amp but it has gotten a few disappointing reviews on the net... I was interested up until I saw them. Sort of considering the Fryette or a used Mesa power amp now.


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