# Kayne anyone?



## /wrists (Oct 27, 2022)

I never listened to his music, I don't feel bad for him, and I would never say anything so fucking stupid, BUT, I think cancel culture is cringe.


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## Drew (Oct 27, 2022)

But you know what's extra-cringe? Antisemitism, amirite?!?


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## spudmunkey (Oct 27, 2022)

Why did no one scream "cancel culture" when Jared Fogel was dropped by Subway?!?!

No, I'm not equating them. They are on the same spectrum, though, right? Which means there's a dividing line between being deservedly ostracized and not, right? And this, many have decided, is morally on that deserving side. Even by those willing to lose millions (Adidas, the company that made the documentary, etc).

The mentally ill artist who says and does awful things is no longer a billionaire. *gasp*


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## sleewell (Oct 27, 2022)

this you bro?


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## TedEH (Oct 27, 2022)

Sure, this thread can only go good places.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 27, 2022)

Jesus, man. Not even gonna start with this one. @evade if you think "cancel culture" is the issue here, you're the problem.


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## wheresthefbomb (Oct 27, 2022)

Just so we are clear, are you saying that you think it's "cringe" to ostracize someone for speech that is demonstrably connected to inciting violence against a particular group?


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## wheresthefbomb (Oct 27, 2022)

Anyone else remember a couple weeks back when this guy was upset that people were profiling him for having an avatar of pepe the frog wearing a burzum shirt?

Kanye West remembers.


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## Drew (Oct 27, 2022)

spudmunkey said:


> Why did no one scream "cancel culture" when Jared Fogel was dropped by Subway?!?!
> 
> No, I'm not equating them. They are on the same spectrum, though, right? Which means there's a dividing line between being deservedly ostracized and not, right? And this, many have decided, is morally on that deserving side. Even by those willing to lose millions (Adidas, the company that made the documentary, etc).
> 
> The mentally ill artist who says and does awful things is no longer a billionaire. *gasp*


Honestly, they're not THAT different.


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## D-Nasty (Oct 27, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> Anyone else remember a couple weeks back when this guy was upset that people were profiling him for having an avatar of pepe the frog wearing a burzum shirt?
> 
> Kanye West remembers.


Were you joking or is that really true? I couldn't find anything doing a quick Google search.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 27, 2022)

D-Nasty said:


> Were you joking or is that really true? I couldn't find anything doing a quick Google search.


He means OP not Kanye or Ari Shaffir.


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## D-Nasty (Oct 27, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> He means OP not Kanye or Ari Shaffir.


Ahhhhh... okay. Thanks for the reply. lol

EDIT: Geez. I didn't even notice that.


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## /wrists (Oct 27, 2022)

clearly no one watched the video around 1:09 and on...


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> clearly no one watched the video around 1:09 and on...



Which is the proper way to watch an Ari Shaffir video: not to, in the first place.


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## /wrists (Oct 27, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Jesus, man. Not even gonna start with this one. @evade if you think "cancel culture" is the issue here, you're the problem.


Ok, why don't you educate me then...


MaxOfMetal said:


> Which is the proper way to watch an Ari Shaffir video: not to, in the first place.


Why's that?


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## CanserDYI (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> clearly no one watched the video around 1:09 and on...


No one cares about the video. We know what Kanye said and how Kanye and Klandice Owens feel.

The fact that you end your statement with "cancel culture is cringe", reads as if you think he shouldn't be cancelled for this. I don't have to educate you to understand how words work, but your history with using "Bundle of Sticks" instead of "homophobic slur" shows me that you don't understand the power of words and why you should choose them very, very carefully.


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## wheresthefbomb (Oct 27, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> Just so we are clear, are you saying that you think it's "cringe" to ostracize someone for speech that is demonstrably connected to inciting violence against a particular group?



@evade still waiting


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## MFB (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> Ok, why don't you educate me then...
> 
> Why's that?



Probably because Ari is the type to drug his friends in front of their child during a birthday party


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## TedEH (Oct 27, 2022)

I watched the video. It was, to use your parlance, "cringe".


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## Ralyks (Oct 27, 2022)




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## narad (Oct 27, 2022)

"A clip of a jew talking about how Kanye's anti-semitic talk is no big deal - ha! Now I can own those snowflake libs!"


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## /wrists (Oct 27, 2022)

Personally, if he got cancelled through a tweet, I think it's excessive, because no one asks about context. Everyone reads these things and expects the worst. I honestly don't care that he was cancelled because I don't really care for Kayne, but the fact that you could tweet something (without intent necessarily) and have your whole life completely undone, is interesting to me. 

Should he have been cancelled? Probably.

But what's even more interesting is that I made a thread, linked a video, and conclusions were instantly made. 

I linked the video because it provides a perspective that wasn't "Fuck this guy he's so racist!!!" , that I don't think the enraged Internet users often considered.


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## /wrists (Oct 27, 2022)

MFB said:


> Probably because Ari is the type to drug his friends in front of their child during a birthday party


Ari is also the kind of guy who calls out Kobe Bryant for rape and be cancelled for saying so. 

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/sep/23/ari-shaffir-controversial-comic-who-ripped-kobe-br/ 

 

Rape/sexual assualt that was basically confirmed by Kobe himself!


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## CanserDYI (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> Personally, if he got cancelled through a tweet, I think it's excessive, because no one asks about context. Everyone reads these things and expects the worst. I honestly don't care that he was cancelled because I don't really care for Kayne, but the fact that you could tweet something (without intent necessarily) and have your whole life completely undone, is interesting to me.
> 
> Should he have been cancelled? Probably.
> 
> ...


If you make a thread and say 4 words or so, half of which make you sound like you're against him being cancelled, what are we supposed to conclude?


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## narad (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> Ari is also the kind of guy who calls out Kobe Bryant for rape and be cancelled for saying so.
> 
> https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/sep/23/ari-shaffir-controversial-comic-who-ripped-kobe-br/
> 
> ...




Yea, and Hitler liked dogs. Just because someone gets it right (maybe) in one situation, doesn't mean they're not going to be wrong in another. Usually it's a mixed bag. But your post history is making a compelling argument to the contrary.


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## /wrists (Oct 27, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> If you make a thread and say 4 words or so, half of which make you sound like you're against him being cancelled, what are we supposed to conclude?


No one had to make any conclusions, especially if the thread originally only had 4 words.


narad said:


> Yea, and Hitler liked dogs. Just because someone gets it right (maybe) in one situation, doesn't mean they're not going to be wrong in another. Usually it's a mixed bag. But your post history is making a compelling argument to the contrary.


Okay, so it's a mixed bag, but it appears some people think he's just one sided, the wrong side. I provided evidence to show that he was a mixed bag and that those who watched the video shouldn't be confirming their bias. 

I've made what I would think are generally pretty logical and contextually relevant posts in the past, I don't think it necessarily aligns to any political spectrum. I believe I'm moderate and centrist. Call it a "mixed bag", actually. 

I think that you think that because some of my posts weren't agreeing with a certain side (your side) on certain issues, you are left to think one way about all my beliefs which aren't necessary true. I think that, but I'm not drawing any conclusions.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> whole life completely undone


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## spudmunkey (Oct 27, 2022)

evade said:


> But what's even more interesting is that I made a thread, linked a video, and conclusions were instantly made.
> 
> I linked the video because it provides a perspective that wasn't "Fuck this guy he's so racist!!!" , that I don't think the enraged Internet users often considered.


I'll bite.

I'll admit I skipped the video earlier, because I thought it was just going to be a recap of events, and it's been all over, well, everywhere, since it happened. I was mistaken.

So Ari's argument is, after misunderstanding that Ye was just talking about his agents due to the information provided by the guy in the front row, is that he should be more clear with his agents about his career goals and desires? And that the holocaust was worse than words?

What "perspective" is it that this video is meant to provide other than an ignorant/incomplete one?


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## CanserDYI (Oct 27, 2022)

There are no sides when it comes to something like this. There's just right and wrong, and if you can't see that, then guess what "side" you're on?

He can say what he wants all he wants, that's freedom of speech, but we don't have to tolerate it and give him a platform to spew his toxic rhetoric.

The only answer is cancel him, or support him and possibly invite more violence upon one of the most persecuted groups of people in history.


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## jaxadam (Oct 27, 2022)

@evade, imma let you finish, but cancel was one of the best cultures of all time!


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## zappatton2 (Oct 27, 2022)

At the rate of self-destruction Kanye is embarking on, he'll be living in a camper eating nothing but fish sticks before long.

All joking aside, it is weird the lengths some have gone through to defend some pretty brazen anti-Semitism lately. The times we're currently living in have really brought back the flavor of the 30's, complete with "global Semitic elites" and conspiracies of harvesting the blood of children. I mean, it's not even original, it's the same nonsense being pedaled by useful idiots who really should have better access to both quality public education, and mental health resources that aren't just money-making outfits selling validation to wealthy, unhinged narcissists.


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## wheresthefbomb (Oct 27, 2022)

The irony here is that this kind of thinking is actually informed by ally culture, i.e., looking for a representative of a marginalized group to tell you what to think or confirm what you already think. 

I've seen situations in my own town where white allies bandwagon together and do all kinds of nasty, misguided stuff because a person from a marginalized group told them to. This isn't that, and most of the time when people start whining about "cancel culture" it's because they're some kind of pepe-the-frog-in-a-burzum-hoodie-avatar-having edgelord who is mad that they can't use slurs anymore without being told they're being an asshole.


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## TedEH (Oct 27, 2022)

It wasn't one tweet, it was a pattern. On top of already being, I'll say an "interesting character", he's been doing stuff like putting out "while lives matter" shirts, going on talk shows and saying insane and insensitive stuff, etc. He wasn't "cancelled for a tweet", he made a fool of himself.
I don't always 100% agree with the public's take on every "cancelled" person, but this one seems pretty cut and dry.

Also, I don't think that video tells the story you think it does. The comedian is "providing another perspective" by ... telling antisemitic jokes..... How does this help anything?


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## CanserDYI (Oct 27, 2022)




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## mmr007 (Oct 27, 2022)

Not a fan of cancel culture….or antisemitism…or Kanye. 

I will say that what happened to kanye was not a cancellation It was a consequence and if i was a ceo of a multibillion dollar shoe company I wouldnt be any good at my job if I didnt provide consequence for a business partner who jeopardized my brand


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## BenjaminW (Oct 27, 2022)

I like a handful of Kanye's songs personally, but I could never ever get over him as a person. Just always had a massive ego and now shit like this.


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## philkilla (Oct 27, 2022)

Who?


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 27, 2022)

It's 2022 and people still operate on the assumption that every social media platform won't wipe them off the face of the internet when they go off the deep end.

Social media isn't fucking government subsidized/regulated, and it likely will never be. Saying fringe shit and being edgy isn't going to go unnoticed anymore, you'd think anyone with a set of active neurons would take the hint and shut the fuck up and go insane in silence.


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## vilk (Oct 28, 2022)

I automatically can't give a fuck about Kanye West because he's a shit rapper. His beats suck (which isn't even really a slight at him because he certainly has almost nothing to do with them) and his flow and his rhymes suck. I actually like some hip hop, but Kanye West is objectively garbage.

Oh, he's a shitty person, too? You don't say.


Question: if I act like a stupid asshole and nobody likes me, am I cancelled? Hey OP, your friends ever cancel you?


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## MFB (Oct 28, 2022)

vilk said:


> I automatically can't give a fuck about Kanye West because he's a shit rapper. His beats suck (which isn't even really a slight at him because he certainly has almost nothing to do with them) and his flow and his rhymes suck. I actually like some hip hop, but Kanye West is objectively garbage.



Uh, you might want to check the books on that, everything up through _808s_ is known as game changing hip hop, whether you like it or not. I got into him with that album, and there's very few albums that capture the entire dark vibe that it has, it's just flat out COLD.

I mean, maybe I missed it, but what other rapper released a song known for him doing it with his jaw wired shut? But his flow and rhythm suck?


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

MFB said:


> Uh, you might want to check the books on that, everything up through _808s_ is known as game changing hip hop, whether you like it or not. I got into him with that album, and there's very few albums that capture the entire dark vibe that it has, it's just flat out COLD.
> 
> I mean, maybe I missed it, but what other rapper released a song known for him doing it with his jaw wired shut? But his flow and rhythm suck?


He has no flow and his songs suck. 

Any Swollen Members album, The Underachievers, Flatbush Zombies, or Beast Coast associated act rekts Kayne.


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## Xaios (Oct 28, 2022)

philkilla said:


> Who?


If we're lucky, this will become the default reaction.


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## SpaceDock (Oct 28, 2022)

Putin also says it is cancel culture that is making the world hate him right now.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> Putin also says it is cancel culture that is making the world hate him right now.


Seems like the only people actually using this phrase "Cancel culture" are people that should be cancelled.

It's not a culture that gets off at cancelling people, its people finally opening their eyes and realizing how much of a White Man's world we live in and seems to me the people using this phrase "cancel culture" are probably only able to see the world from the lens of a white man or someone in the close vicinity to their privilege. (This is not directed at @SpaceDock, I'm just piggybacking off their post)

And its funny, most of the time its just like "Yo can you please not make a joke about jews" and the response is "CANCEL CULTURE IS CRINGE. THIS IS WHAT THE LEFT WANTS. THEY WANT TO CENSOR THE ENTIRE MEDIA THATS OBVIOUSLY RUN BY THE JEWS"


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## SpaceDock (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Seems like the only people actually using this phrase "Cancel culture" are people that should be cancelled.
> 
> It's not a culture that gets off at cancelling people, its people finally opening their eyes and realizing how much of a White Man's world we live in and seems to me the people using this phrase "cancel culture" are probably only able to see the world from the lens of a white man or someone in the close vicinity to their privilege. (This is not directed at @SpaceDock, I'm just piggybacking off their post)
> 
> And its funny, most of the time its just like "Yo can you please not make a joke about jews" and the response is "CANCEL CULTURE IS CRINGE. THIS IS WHAT THE LEFT WANTS. THEY WANT TO CENSOR THE ENTIRE MEDIA THATS OBVIOUSLY RUN BY THE JEWS"


I think there are few examples of toxic cancel culture like Al Franken but the vast majority of people getting “cancelled” totally deserve it. I think there is a just a blowback from rich and or powerful people thinking they have a right to get away with anything because of their money or power, Kanye essentially said that outloud in his challenge to Addidas with the “now what.”


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## zappatton2 (Oct 28, 2022)

My position is; it sucks when someone uses social media to harangue a celebrity (or anyone) for some off-the-cuff time they uncharacteristically put their foot in their mouth like 12 years ago.

But yeah, that's different from being called out for a _pattern _of behaviour or speech that is hateful, abusive, ignorant, sexually exploitative, etc. That's called basic comeuppance. And it generally seems that _those _are the people complaining the loudest about cancel culture.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

zappatton2 said:


> My position is; it sucks when someone uses social media to harangue a celebrity (or anyone) for some off-the-cuff time they uncharacteristically put their foot in their mouth like 12 years ago.
> 
> But yeah, that's different from being called out for a _pattern _of behaviour or speech that is hateful, abusive, ignorant, sexually exploitative, etc. That's called basic comeuppance. And it generally seems that _those _are the people complaining the loudest about cancel culture.


Words; sure. I'm embarrassed to say I've used the word Fa**ot derogatorily before, because it was a different time and seemed to be socially acceptable, and here I am today regretting that decision, as I've never been against gay people, that word just kind of "meant something" to people when you called them it, and it worked. Its an awful word and I wish I never spoke it. I'm not going to want to end someone's career because of an ill informed tweet from long ago, but what I will not be silent about is grooming, underage foolery, taking advantage of women, etc. These are things that no matter your age or whats socially acceptable, that's wrong and it shows a side of you that using a naughty word doesn't.

Kanye didnt just "use a naughty word", he showed who he is when he's alone, google searching and diving deep into the internet and his mind and own rhetoric.


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## zappatton2 (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Words; sure. I'm embarrassed to say I've used the word Fa**ot derogatorily before, because it was a different time and seemed to be socially acceptable, and here I am today regretting that decision, as I've never been against gay people, that word just kind of "meant something" to people when you called them it, and it worked. Its an awful word and I wish I never spoke it. I'm not going to want to end someone's career because of an ill informed tweet from long ago, but what I will not be silent about is grooming, underage foolery, taking advantage of women, etc. These are things that no matter your age or whats socially acceptable, that's wrong and it shows a side of you that using a naughty word doesn't.
> 
> Kanye didnt just "use a naughty word", he showed who he is when he's alone, google searching and diving deep into the internet and his mind and own rhetoric.


To be clear, I agree 100%.


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Words; sure. I'm embarrassed to say I've used the word Fa**ot derogatorily before, because it was a different time and seemed to be socially acceptable, and here I am today regretting that decision, as I've never been against gay people, that word just kind of "meant something" to people when you called them it, and it worked. Its an awful word and I wish I never spoke it. I'm not going to want to end someone's career because of an ill informed tweet from long ago, but what I will not be silent about is grooming, underage foolery, taking advantage of women, etc. These are things that no matter your age or whats socially acceptable, that's wrong and it shows a side of you that using a naughty word doesn't.
> 
> Kanye didnt just "use a naughty word", he showed who he is when he's alone, google searching and diving deep into the internet and his mind and own rhetoric.


i see

im glad im being educated so I wont be ignorant


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## MFB (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Words; sure. I'm embarrassed to say I've used the word Fa**ot derogatorily before, because it was a different time and seemed to be socially acceptable, and here I am today regretting that decision, as I've never been against gay people, that word just kind of "meant something" to people when you called them it, and it worked. Its an awful word and I wish I never spoke it. I'm not going to want to end someone's career because of an ill informed tweet from long ago, but what I will not be silent about is grooming, underage foolery, taking advantage of women, etc. These are things that no matter your age or whats socially acceptable, that's wrong and it shows a side of you that using a naughty word doesn't.
> 
> Kanye didnt just "use a naughty word", he showed who he is when he's alone, google searching and diving deep into the internet and his mind and own rhetoric.



My favorite example of this is from Conan O'Brien Can't Stop where some fans weren't able to get tickets for a show, and one of them uses the (now horrendously outdated) phrase, "don't Jew me, man." Conan sort of stops in his tracks and is dumbfounded at it because one of his producers whom he's worked with for a long time, is Jewish, and here's this fan using it as a slur TO HIS FACE. To the kid it was just a phrase, but for that producer it's something he's heard his entire life, and it's just so casually used.


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> And its funny, most of the time its just like "Yo can you please not make a joke about jews" and the response is "CANCEL CULTURE IS CRINGE. THIS IS WHAT THE LEFT WANTS. THEY WANT TO CENSOR THE ENTIRE MEDIA THATS OBVIOUSLY RUN BY THE JEWS"


?


i mean if it's a joke though...it's a joke.

I also am curious to ask if you ever think about where and why someone might think that...


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Klandice Owens


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## MFB (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> ?
> 
> 
> i mean if it's a joke though...it's a joke.
> ...



Probably because the last time someone in a seat of power censored the media, they followed it up with blaming their problems on the those very same people who they just censored (or perhaps, CANCELLED?) and it ended with 6 million of them dead.


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

MFB said:


> Probably because the last time someone in a seat of power censored the media, they followed it up with blaming their problems on the those very same people who they just censored (or perhaps, CANCELLED?) and it ended with 6 million of them dead.


That's why someone might think why cancel culture is cringe? 

I certainly don't think any sane person thinks the holocaust was a net positive regardless of their political belief, but on this thread so far, it almost appears that if you don't agree with some ideaology, one is automatically a nazi sympathizer.


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

sleewell said:


> this you bro?


This post for one.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 28, 2022)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but evade you gotta start thinking a little harder man


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## MFB (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> That's why someone might think why cancel culture is cringe?
> 
> I certainly don't think any sane person thinks the holocaust was a net positive regardless of their political belief, but on this thread so far, it almost appears that if you don't agree with some ideaology, one is automatically a nazi sympathizer.



That's not the way I interpreted your last post, it seemed more in response to the censorship of media vs. cancel culture being "cringe"



> I also am curious to ask if you ever think about where and why someone might think that...


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, but evade you gotta start thinking a little harder man


When I was 16-22, I thought like a lot of the posts on here. I'm really coming from a place where I agreed with a lot of these "progressive" movements/actions/consequences and allying and supporting it until I thought about it, more. Until I had other discussions with people who didn't agree with what a lot of what is being said here. I listened to both sides. I've been on both sides and now I'm not on either side because both sides tend to be illogical. Not a whole lot of critical thinking, a lot of groupthink mentality. A lot of "take x out of context" or "jump to conclusions" type of thing. Maybe if I get even older, I'll understand why that is, but I'm not convinced at this moment that people should be traumatized by words on social media. That's just me.

I'm not saying what Kayne said here was right. I'm also not saying he didn't DESERVE to get cancelled. I'm just saying, look at the whole case, the context, and where we are as a society now, how we react to tweets etc.

A lot of people on this thread instantly started concluding that I was siding with someone or some political agenda, and I'm not.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

zappatton2 said:


> To be clear, I agree 100%.


I have to stop doing that, I wasn't really even speaking AT you, I was just piggybacking. Apologize!


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## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

The whole idea of "cancel culture" is so blown out or proportion - you're free to keep loving Kanye even if he gets kicked off of Twitter. Everyone that gets "cancelled" gets to carry on with their daily lives and probably even gain support from people that agree with whatever discriminatory stuff they're saying. There are many places in the world where if you misbehave the State will kill you, kill your family, and take all your stuff. THAT'S "cancel culture". IMO.


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> The whole idea of "cancel culture" is so blown out or proportion - you're free to keep loving Kanye even if he gets kicked off of Twitter. Everyone that gets "cancelled" gets to carry on with their daily lives and probably even gain some stronger support from people that agree with whatever discriminatory stuff they're saying. There are many places in the world where if you misbehave the State will kill you, kill your family, and take all your stuff. THAT'S "cancel culture". Getting kicked off privately-run social media platforms for breaking the Terms and Conditions and having other celebrities condemn you publicly doesn't even compare. IMO.


No, that's murder.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

For most of these people getting cancelled, whats happening is they are actually being invited to a weird little melting pot of TERF's, racists, homophobes, right wing nut jobs, thin blue line punisher skull tatoo havers, maga cultists, etc. that have a built in fanbase of 100 million people and actually sometimes gives them just as much of a platform.


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> For most of these people getting cancelled, whats happening is they are actually being invited to a weird little melting pot of TERF's, racists, homophobes, right wing nut jobs, thin blue line punisher skull tatoo havers, maga cultists, etc. that have a built in fanbase of 100 million people and actually sometimes gives them just as much of a platform.


I don't deny that that can be the case either, by the way, I'm fully aware and realistic about this. It only creates more extreme hatred which I think is dangerous. However, it is a directly byproduct of cancel culture.


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## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> No, that's murder.


They're not mutually exclusive lol


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## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I don't deny that that can be the case either, by the way, I'm fully aware and realistic about this. It only creates more extreme hatred which I think is dangerous. However, it is a directly byproduct of cancel culture.


What do you define as "cancel culture" and how in the world you can say it makes MORE hatred in the world to stop people that are in a position of social influence from saying extremely hurtful, damaging, toxic, attitudes that can be impressed on young minds that idolize these people? You really think keeping these people platformed will create LESS hatred than condemning them?

Seriously man, what are you thinking? Surely I'm misinterpreting you.


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## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

This whole conversation is so common these days.

"Cancel culture is should be outlawed. But discrimination should be protected as free speech." That's not how it works... if you are free to say that Jews suck, anybody is free to tell you to **** off.

Honestly I'm amazed that folks still don't understand the consequences of saying a bunch of loonytunes nonsense in PUBLIC SETTINGS. LOL of course you're going to get in trouble if you say things like "Jews ruin my life!" on a public platform like Twitter or in an interview that everybody on the planet with internet access can see. Kanye is getting flack for his Jewish remarks just as much as he is getting flack for using his mental troubles for attention rather than trying to get help or help others struggling with bipolar.


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## MFB (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> This whole conversation is so common these days.
> 
> "Cancel culture is cringe and shouldn't be allowed. But hate ON PRIVATE PLATFORMS should be protected as free speech."
> 
> Honestly I'm amazed that folks still don't understand the consequences of saying a bunch of loonytunes nonsense in PUBLIC SETTINGS. Of course you're going to get in trouble if you say things like "Jews ruin my life!" on a public platform like Twitter or in an interview that everybody on the planet with internet access can see.



Minor correction but it makes all the difference in the world, Twitter might be public to see, but when you're a user you very much agree to their terms of use and that goes against it


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> What do you define as "cancel culture" and how in the world you can say it makes MORE hatred in the world to stop people that are in a position of social influence from saying extremely hurtful, damaging, toxic, attitudes that can be impressed on young minds that idolize these people? You really think keeping these people platformed will create LESS hatred than condemning them?
> 
> Seriously man, what are you thinking? Surely I'm misinterpreting you.


You mentioned that these people are being invited to a melting pot of extreme racists and homophobes after they have been canceled. These people maybe weren't, at first, really truly homophobic or racist or toxic. Maybe they said a few things that WERE damaging, and perhaps it progressed gradually to something worse on a platform, like Twitter etc. Let's picture that for a moment. 

Now, let's say they've been banned, now they're upset, but they also have support from people who might not have the same common ground, but support them nonetheless. That "gradually toxic" has now been fastforwarded to extremely damaging, instantaneously and now they also are exposed to groupthink where everyone has a similar perspective. No one will call them out and even invite the thought that maybe they shouldn't have said that. When people directly punish actions with extremity, it causes extremity. It's not really that hard to imagine. 

Yes, I think keeping these people platformed might potentially give these people an opportunity to redeem themselves. 

IDOLIZING celebrities is a different issue. That's an issue that should be informed on and intervened upon in their social environment.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> This whole conversation is so common these days.
> 
> "Cancel culture is cringe and shouldn't be allowed. But hate should be protected as free speech."
> 
> Honestly I'm amazed that folks still don't understand the consequences of saying a bunch of loonytunes nonsense in PUBLIC SETTINGS. LOL of course you're going to get in trouble if you say things like "Jews ruin my life!" on a public platform like Twitter or in an interview that everybody on the planet with internet access can see. Kanye is getting flack for his Jewish remarks just as much as he is getting flack for using his mental troubles for attention rather than trying to get help or help others struggling with bipolar.





MFB said:


> Minor correction but it makes all the difference in the world, Twitter might be public to see, but when you're a user you very much agree to their terms of use and that goes against it


I think the issue is that a lot of this stuff really depends on context and also depends on some moral objectivity that hasn't been established and never will be. By forcing people off your platform because they said something that some people didn't agree with is going to be interpreted as "thought police". I'm not talking about Kayne, people have been suspended for MUCH LESS and also people have not been suspended for MUCH MORE.

I don't necessarily disagree with you that hate speech should be protected as free speech, but I think that issue is a complicated one and it's the classification of what is considered hate speech to be the issue.

I don't think cancel culture shouldn't be allowed either, I just said it's cringe that people are so sensitive these days over absolutely fucking nothing. (Not talking about Kayne, again)


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

@CanserDYI 

This is a good description of cancel culture. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture 



> *Cancel culture* or *call-out culture* is a phrase contemporary to the late 2010s and early 2020s used to refer to a form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles – whether it be online, on social media, or in person. Those subject to this ostracism are said to have been "cancelled".[1][a][4] The expression "cancel culture" has mostly negative connotations and is used in debates on free speech and censorship.[5][6]
> 
> The notion of cancel culture is a variant on the term _call-out culture_. It is often said to take the form of boycotting or shunning an individual (often a celebrity) who is deemed to have acted or spoken in an unacceptable manner.[2][7][8][9][10]
> 
> Some critics argue that cancel culture has a chilling effect on public discourse, is unproductive, does not bring real social change, causes intolerance, and amounts to cyberbullying.[11][12] Others argue that calls for "cancellation" are themselves a form of free speech and that they promote accountability, give disenfranchised people a voice, and are simply another form of boycotting.[12][13][14][15] Some public figures claim to have been "cancelled" while continuing their careers as before.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> You mentioned that these people are being invited to a melting pot of extreme racists and homophobes after they have been canceled. These people maybe weren't, at first, really truly homophobic or racist or toxic. Maybe they said a few things that WERE damaging, and perhaps it progressed gradually to something worse on a platform, like Twitter etc. Let's picture that for a moment.
> 
> Now, let's say they've been banned, now they're upset, but they also have support from people who might not have the same common ground, but support them nonetheless. That "gradually toxic" has now been fastforwarded to extremely damaging, instantaneously and now they also are exposed to groupthink where everyone has a similar perspective. No one will call them out and even invite the thought that maybe they shouldn't have said that. When people directly punish actions with extremity, it causes extremity. It's not really that hard to imagine.
> 
> ...


Are we are speaking about some hypothetical "damaging social figure" that is deplatformed because of racist or sexist or violent remarks, and you're saying that if we hypothetically deplatform them we are actually advancing them to radicalization? All I read here is that you'd rather cater to a crybaby than the hundreds and thousands of people who are tired of hearing the bullshit.


----------



## MFB (Oct 28, 2022)

If you have to ASK if it's hate speech, guess what? It's hate speech.


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

1: This whole thread is just going to be an exercise in watching OP double down on defending discrimination until the mods close the thread.

2: If hate speech is free speech, so is "cancelling" somebody. What's more dangerous, historically - ostracizing entire groups of people for things they can't control (skin color, race, place of birth, etc), or ostracizing individuals that suck and choose to do it in the public eye? I think I know the answer here. Moving on.


----------



## mastapimp (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I'm not saying what Kayne said here was right. I'm also not saying he didn't DESERVE to get cancelled. I'm just saying, look at the whole case, the context, and where we are as a society now, how we react to tweets etc.


In a time before twitter, a celebrity could say something controversial in a TV interview, and it would get blasted all over the media outlets (newspapers, TV shows, magazines, radio, etc...). How is it different if you're a massive celebrity today with 100 million followers and you say something controversial and it gets retweeted across all of the internet? The information is still spreading, people are still hearing the message, and there's still consequences to pay if your image is associated with a brand. I don't see a difference in how we react. Before twitter, celebrities still committed career suicide. When Tim Hardaway said "I hate gay people" on a sports radio show about 15 years ago, he was dropped kanye-style by nearly everyone associated with him.


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I think the issue is that a lot of this stuff really depends on context and also depends on some moral objectivity that hasn't been established and never will be.


Context like the murder of six million Jews not that long ago? If you know a Boomer Jew, their parents may have gone through the Holocaust. I wonder why people are sensitive to blatant public anti-Semitism...


----------



## Grindspine (Oct 28, 2022)

If someone says something that violates TOS on a platform, they are subject to being banned.

If a show loses ratings because a public figure on that show behaves outside of socially accepted norms and brings negative press to that show, that show can end a contract of the public figure.

If a business loses clients due to behavior of an employee, that employee can be let go.

Stop calling it a culture. It is simply consequences for jerks misbehaving. We live in a social construct. We are subject to social contract. If some other jerks agree with the jerk who got kicked off a platform and want to bitch about it, they have a right to do so. Everyone else also has the right to say, "Shut up; we don't care about your lame complaint."

Kanye is a has-been who is trying to get back in the media spotlight. I am all for never really hearing about him or his lame opinions again.


----------



## Drew (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> No one had to make any conclusions, especially if the thread originally only had 4 words.


Hi, welcome to the internet. Here, we say things, expect people to react to them, and react to what other people have to say. It's fun! I'd say enjoy your stay, but I'm thinking maybe the internet just isn't for you.


...unless of course you're saying you were being purposefully vague to elicit a response, to go "gotcha!"? If so, then you're a troll, and kindly let yourself out of this forum.

Kanye's not only a moron, he's also a racist antisemite fuck. I'm not particularly interested in any defenses people have to offer for his actions, since there's already plenty of context in interpreting what he said.


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

mastapimp said:


> In a time before twitter, a celebrity could say something controversial in a TV interview, and it would get blasted all over the media outlets (newspapers, TV shows, magazines, radio, etc...). How is it different if you're a massive celebrity today with 100 million followers and you say something controversial and it gets retweeted across all of the internet? The information is still spreading, people are still hearing the message, and there's still consequences to pay if your image is associated with a brand. I don't see a difference in how we react. Before twitter, celebrities still committed career suicide. When Tim Hardaway said "I hate gay people" on a sports radio show about 15 years ago, he was dropped kanye-style by nearly everyone associated with him.


Thank you. This is what I was referring to earlier. Whining about "cancel culture these days" shows me that either you haven't been paying attention, or you want a discrimination-based bandwagon to hop on. The difference is that now information is more accessible and more widely circulated.

There's plenty of bandwagons, why not stick to something cool like "I like seven string guitars" rather than "Please let me publicly degrade specific groups of people".


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

Kanye's mother is probably rolling in her grave right now.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

I post here so I can hear views that are being elaborated on. Whether or not I agree with it is immaterial. I think it helps me grow my own perspectives as well.

To be absolutely and completely fair, everyone is really just stating their opinions. It is completely subjective and replaceable by anyone else's. 

As I said, this is really just arguing about moral objectivity and whose morals are more correct than some other person's. 

If my comments and questions are vague, that should give you even more of a voice to elaborate on your perspective.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> As I said, this is really just arguing about moral objectivity and whose morals are more correct than some other person's.


If this is still your mindset here, you have learned absolutely nothing from this thread.


----------



## eaeolian (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I post here so I can hear views that are being elaborated on. Whether or not I agree with it is immaterial. I think it helps me grow my own perspectives as well.
> 
> To be absolutely and completely fair, everyone is really just stating their opinions. It is completely subjective and replaceable by anyone else's.
> 
> ...


ITT: Say "Cancel Culture" when you really mean "Free Market".
Kanye, Ye, or whoever he is this week can use any language he likes. He's not free from the economic or social repercussions of that speech.
People who complain about "Cancel Culture" wish to say/do whatever they want and be free from consequences. That's been a white male prerogative for quite some time, but that time is fading.


----------



## Drew (Oct 28, 2022)

eaeolian said:


> ITT: Say "Cancel Culture" when you really mean "Free Market".
> Kanye, Ye, or whoever he is this week can use any language he likes. He's not free from the economic or social repercussions of that speech.
> People who complain about "Cancel Culture" wish to say/do whatever they want and be free from consequences. That's been a white male prerogative for quite some time, but that time is fading.



 

Here's the thing with "cancel culture." I can't force you to stop listening to, liking, or respecting Kanye. That's entirely your decision. BUT, you can't force me to give a shit if other people DO stop listening to, liking, or respecting Kanye. 

Fuck around and find out. Kanye just found out.


----------



## Drew (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> As I said, this is really just arguing about moral objectivity and whose morals are more correct than some other person's.


This sounds suspiciously like the sort of bullshit Jordan Peterson spews, before going on to conclude that HIS morals are objectively right.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 28, 2022)

@evade what the fuck do you mean by "context"? Kanye has been saying antisemitic shit for a decade now, and the context has been that he hates Jewish people. He has gone on podcasts the past week to clear his name that haven't been aired because the context was that he didn't stutter. He is just an unashamed antisemite.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

StevenC said:


> @evade what the fuck do you mean by "context"? Kanye has been saying antisemitic shit for a decade now, and the context has been that he hates Jewish people. He has gone on podcasts the past week to clear his name that haven't been aired because the context was that he didn't stutter. He is just an unashamed antisemite.


I wasn't aware of this.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

Drew said:


> This sounds suspiciously like the sort of bullshit Jordan Peterson spews, before going on to conclude that HIS morals are objectively right.


Jordan Peterson has gone off the rails of the crazy train nowadays.


----------



## Drew (Oct 28, 2022)

StevenC said:


> @evade what the fuck do you mean by "context"? Kanye has been saying antisemitic shit for a decade now, and the context has been that he hates Jewish people. He has gone on podcasts the past week to clear his name that haven't been aired because the context was that he didn't stutter. He is just an unashamed antisemite.


...and the ones that did, like his interview with Tucker Carlson, had to be edited to FUCK and back because even Carlson wasn't comfortable with some of the shit he was saying.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> Jordan Peterson has gone off the rails of the crazy train nowadays.


I'm sorry, are you implying that he wasn't off the rails at one point?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I'm sorry, are you implying that he wasn't off the rails at one point?


Yes. To my knowledge, yes.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> Yes. To my knowledge, yes.


The dude was protesting trans rights in 2016 homie. Seems like he's been a twat for at least 6 years.


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 28, 2022)

Drew said:


> ...unless of course you're saying you were being purposefully vague to elicit a response, to go "gotcha!"?


this is your first evade politics thread isn't it


----------



## StevenC (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I wasn't aware of this.


So, you came in here saying things were taken out of context while being completely oblivious to the context?

Do you see why no one takes you seriously?


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

I have $20 that says evade has at least one 4chan tab open at all times.


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

Jordan Peterson realized he could get thousands of people to donate thousands of dollars a month for him to quit his job and make cultural commentary videos full-time.

I heard something recently that I enjoyed. It was "instead of starting with anger, start with curiosity". So instead of being mad or critical about this or that, ask yourself "why are people mad about this?" Approaching with curiosity allows you to have a birds eye view on these cultural conversations, and takes your initial emotional reaction out of it.


----------



## zappatton2 (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> "instead of starting with anger, start with curiosity"


I want this on a t-shirt!


----------



## profwoot (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> ...on this thread so far, it almost appears that if you don't agree with some ideaology, one is automatically a nazi sympathizer.


lol. Is it your opinion that siding with the dude parroting nazi rhetoric does not make you a nazi sympathizer?

Apparently, Kanye wanted to name his 2018 album "Hitler".
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/27/entertainment/kanye-west-hitler-album


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> The dude was protesting trans rights in 2016 homie. Seems like he's been a twat for at least 6 years.


No he wasn't. He was protesting free speech and policing other people's language if I wasn't mistaken. Certain individuals chose to interpret it differently and use the misinterpretation to call him a bigot.


profwoot said:


> lol. Is it your opinion that siding with the dude parroting nazi rhetoric does not make you a nazi sympathizer?
> 
> Apparently, Kanye wanted to name his 2018 album "Hitler".
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/27/entertainment/kanye-west-hitler-album


lol my opinion on this thread has been stated several times that i don't side with kayne 

apparently that small part flew over everyone's heads


alex1fly said:


> Jordan Peterson realized he could get thousands of people to donate thousands of dollars a month for him to quit his job and make cultural commentary videos full-time.
> 
> I heard something recently that I enjoyed. It was "instead of starting with anger, start with curiosity". So instead of being mad or critical about this or that, ask yourself "why are people mad about this?" Approaching with curiosity allows you to have a birds eye view on these cultural conversations, and takes your initial emotional reaction out of it.


Yes, if I could get a few cool thousands of dollars a month to quit my job and make cultural commentary videos, I would do. 

I agree with this.


CanserDYI said:


> I have $20 that says evade has at least one 4chan tab open at all times.


lol again with the assumptions


StevenC said:


> So, you came in here saying things were taken out of context while being completely oblivious to the context?
> 
> Do you see why no one takes you seriously?



No.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> evade poli


i didn't mention politics 

you did


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

Oh man I would fucking love to see Jordan Peterson lose his fucking shit and probably cry his brains out if everyone called him "ma'am" and "madam", "miss peterson" all day, misgendering him. Especially on purpose to be a dick. Kinda like on purpose misgendering people whether not you're "fined or jailed" etc.

You know he'd be sooooo mad. The dude was in literal tears when called the incel king.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Oh man I would fucking love to see Jordan Peterson lose his fucking shit and probably cry his brains out if everyone called him "ma'am" and "madam", "miss peterson" all day, misgendering him. Especially on purpose to be a dick. Kinda like on purpose misgendering people whether not you're "fined or jailed" etc.
> 
> You know he'd be sooooo mad. The dude was in literal tears when called the incel king.


You're literally acting as if you were 12.


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> i didn't mention politics
> 
> you did


evade pls
pls dont do this
stick with the pseudo-intellectual plausible deniability thing
evade pls


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> No he wasn't. He was protesting free speech and policing other people's language if I wasn't mistaken. Certain individuals chose to interpret it differently and use the misinterpretation to call him a bigot.


JPs very public fit was basically this.

Me: hi Jordan, my name is Alex and I'm a dude, please refer to me as a dude named Alex.
Government: if you discriminate against Alex the dude for wanting to be called Alex the dude, you will get in trouble.
Jordan: you can't make me do that! I want to call that person Cathy the lady! This limits my free speech!


Kind of like how Kanye's very public fit was this.

Nobody:
Kanye: Jews suck, Hitler was awesome, Christians are great, women should serve men, I am basically God
Many people: woah. Not cool Kanye. If you keep saying this stuff consistently and publicly for another 10 years, we'll sever business ties with you.
*10 years later*
Many other people: oh dang cancel culture is the worst. Kanye didn't deserve that. Jews DO suck.


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> evade pls
> pls dont do this
> stick with the pseudo-intellectual plausible deniability thing
> evade pls


You forgot to lead with
Unsolicited inflammatory statement on current hot button issue

Sprinkle in some
Gaslight/pivot

Closeout with
Continue denying/accusing/evading until everybody gets tired of you and declare yourself the rhetorical winner


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> You're literally acting as if you were 12.


Fucking bingo! Thats the point. Jordan Peterson making a huge thing about a bill that puts people's preferred pronouns in a protected class is him acting like he's 12. He has flowed with masculinity issues and I bet would absolutely snap if someone misgendered him.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> JPs very public fit was basically this.
> 
> Me: hi Jordan, my name is Alex and I'm a dude, please refer to me as a dude named Alex.
> Government: if you discriminate against Alex the dude for wanting to be called Alex the dude, you will get in trouble.
> ...


Homie I'm with you, but gotta use quotations on that last bit


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Homie I'm with you, but gotta use quotations on that last bit


How dare you limit my right to free speech lol


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Fucking bingo! Thats the point. Jordan Peterson making a huge thing about a bill that puts people's preferred pronouns in a protected class is him acting like he's 12. He has flowed with masculinity issues and I bet would absolutely snap if someone misgendered him.


Yeah man I just don't get making a big fuss about these small things. I mean, it'll probably always be weird for me to call somebody "they" because grammatically I'm so used to "they" referring to multiple people rather than a singular. But given the choice between feeling slightly weird occasionally or making a big public stink out of it... easy choice. It's not like somebody is forcing me to use a certain pronoun for myself.


----------



## jaxadam (Oct 28, 2022)

@Metaldestroyerdennis pls
pls dont do this
stick with the pseudo-intellectual car fraud thing
Metaldestroyerdennis pls


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> You forgot to lead with
> Unsolicited inflammatory statement on current hot button issue
> 
> Sprinkle in some
> ...


I'm not trying to "win" anything. Just want to see other people's perspectives. God forbid it doesn't align with your worldview.

Think I've heard enough, though. Thanks for everyone for providing their input.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I'm not trying to "win" anything. Just want to see other people's perspectives. God forbid it doesn't align with your worldview.


You didn't want to see others perspectives don't give me that good faith bullshit. You posted words that were obviously calling out this Kanye stuff as just part of cringey "cancel culture" while posting a video of a Jewish man saying it wasn't that big of a deal that he said those things. 

You had a bias, you knew what you were asking.


----------



## alex1fly (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> You didn't want to see others perspectives don't give me that good faith bullshit. You posted words that were obviously calling out this Kanye stuff as just part of cringey "cancel culture" while posting a video of a Jewish man saying it wasn't that big of a deal that he said those things.
> 
> You had a bias, you knew what you were asking.


I mean the dude's avatar is literally a troll meme. Nothing in this thread should be a surprise to anybody.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

alex1fly said:


> I mean the dude's avatar is literally a troll meme. Nothing in this thread should be a surprise to anybody.


We've been listening to him for a minute and unless he's playing the long troll, I don't think he's actually trolling anyone, I believe this is his genuine character.


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 28, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> @Metaldestroyerdennis pls
> pls dont do this
> stick with the pseudo-intellectual car fraud thing
> Metaldestroyerdennis pls


my machinations are beyond your understanding
I'm already trolling this thread your services are not needed sir


----------



## jaxadam (Oct 28, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> my machinations are beyond your understanding
> I'm already trolling this thread your services are not needed sir



Please don’t use those big words on me, my IQ is already pretty low. As a matter of fact, a while back I had it tested and they said it was the lowest they’d ever seen! They asked if I minded if they sent the results to the Guinness Book of World Records, I’d probably get an award. I said hell yeah! Well, my wife and I go to their headquarters and a few minutes later she said I came out of the room with a frown on my face. She asked me what was wrong and I told her that I’m not getting an award, they’re already giving it to someone named Metaldestroyerdennis.


----------



## profwoot (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> lol again with the assumptions


That's the point, dude. When you come in with your MAGA/Nazi avatar trying to center "cancel culture" in a discussion about nazi rhetoric, everyone is going to make assumptions. You can either realize this is the case or you can continue acting confused and victimized when it continues to happen. When you refuse to understand (or refuse to admit that you understand) why everyone is making assumptions about you, that makes you a troll at best.


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 28, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Please don’t use those big words on me, my IQ is already pretty low. As a matter of fact, a while back I had it tested and they said it was the lowest they’d ever seen! They asked if I minded if they sent the results to the Guinness Book of World Records, I’d probably get an award. I said hell yeah! Well, my wife and I go to their headquarters and a few minutes later she said I came out of the room with a frown on my face. She asked me what was wrong and I told her that I’m not getting an award, they’re already giving it to someone named Metaldestroyerdennis.


is there a prize money
is it enough to buy another guitar
what if I'm not in the mood for guinness that day can I pick a different beer


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

profwoot said:


> That's the point, dude. When you come in with your MAGA/Nazi avatar trying to center "cancel culture" in a discussion about nazi rhetoric, everyone is going to make assumptions. You can either realize this is the case or you can continue acting confused and victimized when it continues to happen. When you refuse to understand (or refuse to admit that you understand) why everyone is making assumptions about you, that makes you a troll at best.


Hahaha what the heck? Relax. Why is my avatar MAGA NAZI?? 

I'm now extra confused. 

I googled black metal pepe and this was the only one that popped up.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> Hahaha what the heck? Relax. Why is my avatar MAGA NAZI??
> 
> I'm now extra confused.
> 
> I googled black metal pepe and this was the only one that popped up.


If you don't know Pepe is a white nationalist logo now, if you've been living under a rock. It's even in the ADL now....









Pepe the Frog


Pepe the Frog is a popular Internet meme used in a variety of contexts. In recent years it has also been appropriated by white supremacists, particularly those from the "alt right," who use in racist, anti-Semitic or other hateful contexts.




www.adl.org


----------



## StevenC (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> I'm not trying to "win" anything. Just want to see other people's perspectives. God forbid it doesn't align with your worldview.
> 
> Think I've heard enough, though. Thanks for everyone for providing their input.


But when other people gave their perspective, you complained that no one watched your video.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> If you don't know Pepe is a white nationalist logo now, if you've been living under a rock. It's even in the ADL now....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


alright im done lol 

That's just ridiculous


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

StevenC said:


> But when other people gave their perspective, you complained that no one watched your video.


Because it wasn't much of a perspective, most of them were just meme-ing


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> alright im done lol
> 
> That's just ridiculous


So....can't you see now how with the logo, especially with Burzum which is a NSBM band, the things youre saying _ might_ be misconstrued?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> So....can't you see now how with the logo, especially with Burzum which is a NSBM band, the things youre saying _ might_ be misconstrued?


Actually...

TIL about Burzum...

I will change my avatar lol.


----------



## profwoot (Oct 28, 2022)

evade said:


> Hahaha what the heck? Relax. Why is my avatar MAGA NAZI??
> 
> I'm now extra confused.
> 
> I googled black metal pepe and this was the only one that popped up.


In addition to Pepe having been coopted by the white nationalist/MAGA/Q crowd, the particular Pepe in your avatar is wearing a Burzum hoodie. Burzum was a musical project of Varg Vikernes, a self-proclaimed Nazi (and convicted murderer). 

I suppose it's possible you're stumbling blindly into all this and really don't mean to seem like a Nazi. Either way, you do.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 28, 2022)

I'm whatever about the pepe, that is way too much of a reach, but didn't know about Burzum. Ideally I would've found a Pepe wearing a darkthrone shirt but couldn't find one on google


----------



## Riff the Road Dog (Oct 28, 2022)

WhoTF is Kayne?


----------



## AMOS (Oct 28, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> I think there are few examples of toxic cancel culture like Al Franken but the vast majority of people getting “cancelled” totally deserve it. I think there is a just a blowback from rich and or powerful people thinking they have a right to get away with anything because of their money or power, Kanye essentially said that outloud in his challenge to Addidas with the “now what.”


China totally deserves it, yet Adidas gets rich off of China. The same China that has re-education camps for Muslims. Cancel Adidas while you're at it, and Nike, and the NBA.


----------



## AMOS (Oct 28, 2022)

Just ask yourself if Kanye would be cancelled if he had a Muslim re-education camp, as opposed to having several corporations flock to you for business.


----------



## narad (Oct 28, 2022)

AMOS said:


> Just ask yourself if Kanye would be cancelled if he had a Muslim re-education camp, as opposed to having several corporations flock to you for business.



Just ask yourself if Kanye would be cancelled if he had killed a bunch of civilians in a series of drone attack campaigns spanning several years. Or maybe don't, because it's bloody obvious you can't cancel a country (made up of many good people as well as some bad people) in the same way you can cancel a single person. Countries cancel countries.


----------



## Grindspine (Oct 29, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> is there a prize money
> is it enough to buy another guitar
> what if I'm not in the mood for guinness that day can I pick a different beer


I don't get ever not being in the mood for Guinness.



Annnnd can someone just cancel this thread? /sarcasm


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> If you don't know Pepe is a white nationalist logo now, if you've been living under a rock. It's even in the ADL now....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2021/far-right-symbols-capitol-riot/



Although included, it's completely innocuously used in all corners of the internet even in mainstream spaces as generally a frog who's been drawn a million ways to hell and back for over a decade and only recently been directly linked to the far right stuff.

No one really has any say in how these matters evolve, although I think the media's propensity to hand this kind of stuff to white nationalists on a silver platter is pretty fucking lame. 

You'll see the ok hand gesture in the list too, which started as a 4chan hoax and took off.









Is that an OK sign? A white power symbol? Or just a right-wing troll?


From its adoption first by white nationalists, and then by 4chan trolls intent on ‘triggering the libs,’ the well-known hand signal’s use points to deeper concerns.




www.splcenter.org





None of it matters, both the co-opting and the ease that this stuff can happen and the vehement defense of it. People flail about it until they have bills to pay and suddenly the meme frog becomes the 22nd priority in your life and you just have to move the fuck on about it 

*BUT..*

Regardless of all of the above, to combo the frog avatar/dialogue/patterns of discussion and do the "what do you mean" when called on it schtick is hugely daft. Evade is likely just a normal dude who grew up in the edgy growing phase of the internet, and *literally* thinks you should be able to sit down with anyone in the marketplace of ideas and debate even Nazi's instead of silencing them.

At the same time, I think very few people even exist who engage in political discourse and are also qualified let alone mentally capable of driving a conversation past "mic drop statement gif/emoji" in the first place.


----------



## narad (Oct 29, 2022)

Evade is living some sort of "Tucker & Dale vs. Evil" life where he is well-meaning but then accidentally winds up plastering himself with nazi affiliated imagery, then wants to post some discussion matter on cancel culture only to find himself cheerleading the anti-semitic side of a forum debate.


----------



## AMOS (Oct 29, 2022)

narad said:


> Just ask yourself if Kanye would be cancelled if he had killed a bunch of civilians in a series of drone attack campaigns spanning several years. Or maybe don't, because it's bloody obvious you can't cancel a country (made up of many good people as well as some bad people) in the same way you can cancel a single person. Countries cancel countries.


But you can boycott the evil mutherfuckers instead of doing business with them! These businesses pick and choose who they Cancel, and of course when there's $$$ to be made they look the other way. Which you appear to be supporting. Cancel Culture is a farce and a failure, even Obama called them out.


----------



## AMOS (Oct 29, 2022)

narad said:


> Evade is living some sort of "Tucker & Dale vs. Evil" life where he is well-meaning but then accidentally winds up plastering himself with nazi affiliated imagery, then wants to post some discussion matter on cancel culture only to find himself cheerleading the anti-semitic side of a forum debate.


That's the problem with you lefties, no one else are allowed to oppose something like Cancel Culture without you associating them with whoever Cancel Culture happens to be opposing . No boneheads, it's called having a differing opinion. Which is possible without taking sides with the anti-semitic's or whoever. They all suck and I'm sticking with that.


----------



## narad (Oct 29, 2022)

AMOS said:


> That's the problem with you lefties, no one else are allowed to oppose something like Cancel Culture without you associating them with whoever Cancel Culture happens to be opposing . No boneheads, it's called having a differing opinion. Which is possible without taking sides with the anti-semitic's or whoever. They all suck and I'm sticking with that.



Sounds like the meaning of that one went over your head.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 29, 2022)

AMOS said:


> That's the problem with you lefties, no one else are allowed to oppose something like Cancel Culture without you associating them with whoever Cancel Culture happens to be opposing . No boneheads, it's called having a differing opinion. Which is possible without taking sides with the anti-semitic's or whoever. They all suck and I'm sticking with that.


So you're saying those who oppose antisemitism suck?


----------



## Louis Cypher (Oct 29, 2022)

AMOS said:


> That's the problem with you lefties, no one else are allowed to oppose something like Cancel Culture without you associating them with whoever Cancel Culture happens to be opposing . No boneheads, it's called having a differing opinion. Which is possible without taking sides with the anti-semitic's or whoever. They all suck and I'm sticking with that.


Just like nearly every post of this kind, this makes no sense whatsoever


----------



## broj15 (Oct 29, 2022)

MBDTF was a 10/10 as well as Ye (self titled/I hate being bi-polar it's awesome).
Real curious to see how many of y'all enjoy Wagner, Bukowski, or eat dole bananas.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

AMOS said:


> That's the problem with you lefties, no one else are allowed to oppose something like Cancel Culture without you associating them with whoever Cancel Culture happens to be opposing . No boneheads, it's called having a differing opinion. Which is possible without taking sides with the anti-semitic's or whoever. They all suck and I'm sticking with that.


Please enlighten me what your big brain idea is, because as far as I was aware the only two opinions there are in this are: Kanye and white supremacists should be stripped of social media platform, or Kanye and white supremacists should NOT be stripped of their social media platforms. If you have some fuckin weird ass middle take, you're saying at least part of you believes they should not be deplatformed.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Oct 29, 2022)

AMOS said:


> But you can boycott the evil mutherfuckers instead of doing business with them! These businesses pick and choose who they Cancel, and of course when there's $$$ to be made they look the other way. Which you appear to be supporting. Cancel Culture is a farce and a failure, even Obama called them out.



God what an absolute dumbfuck.

Name a single person who was unfairly 'cancelled' and let's go through their actions leading to that happening.

Advertisers pull out if you host the moron on the news this week saying fringe shit. If it's going to cost you money to NOT boot someone from your platform the choice is simple.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Please enlighten me what your big brain idea is, because as far as I was aware the only two opinions there are in this are: Kanye and white supremacists should be stripped of social media platform, or Kanye and white supremacists should NOT be stripped of their social media platforms. If you have some fuckin weird ass middle take, you're saying at least part of you believes they should not be deplatformed.


imagine making a joke involving race or sexual orientation these days

jfc


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> imagine making a joke involving race or sexual orientation these days
> 
> jfc


...DING DING DING DING. We have a winner boys.

Don't make race or sexual orientation into a joke, it's really that simple. I have zero idea why that's hard to ask. Absolutely mind boggling.


----------



## fantom (Oct 29, 2022)

Cancel culture is stupid. People shouldn't have to fear societal exile for one stupid joke or comment made out of context.

Kanye is not in that category. He has been a vocal tool for decades. Anyone acting like this is a one time event is oblivious.

If anything people like Kanye should have been cancelled years ago. Kanye is an example of where cancel culture is nowhere near the societal issue that the rightwing news media makes it out to be. They just use it to reflect all the lies and contradictions they spew.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> ...DING DING DING DING. We have a winner boys.
> 
> Don't make race or sexual orientation into a joke, it's really that simple. I have zero idea why that's hard to ask. Absolutely mind boggling.


why can't people make harmless statements about controversial topics? 

That's truly mind boggling to me.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

fantom said:


> Cancel culture is stupid. People shouldn't have to fear societal exile for one stupid joke or comment made out of context.
> 
> Kanye is not in that category. He has been a vocal tool for decades. Anyone acting like this is a one time event is oblivious.
> 
> If anything people like Kanye should have been cancelled years ago. Kanye is an example of where cancel culture is nowhere near the societal issue that the rightwing news media makes it out to be. They just use it to reflect all the lies and contradictions they spew.




I wasn't fully up to date with the degree of Kayne's ideaologies and beliefs and this thread enlightened me to some of that. However, at no point did I think Kayne shouldn't have been canceled, I just thought the incident involved a culture that I think is toxic.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> why can't people make harmless statements about controversial topics?
> 
> That's truly mind boggling to me.


How is a racist joke or a joke about sexual orientation harmless? Give me an example, not a video, type it out, of a harmless joke about gay people or harmless race joke that doesn't put them as the butt of the joke.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> How is a racist joke or a joke about sexual orientation harmless? Give me an example, not a video, type it out, of a harmless joke about gay people or harmless race joke that doesn't put them as the butt of the joke.


I have a feeling you're trying to bait me to get banned or something, but whatever. 

Ever tried Ethiopian food? Neither have they.


What does food and dark humor have in common? Not everyone gets it.


How do you turn a fruit into a vegetable? AIDS.

"Not a video" why? Are you maybe afraid that with the correct context that it might go against your point?


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 29, 2022)

You can and should be able to joke about ANYTHING. Anything. Again Kanye wasnt joking and he wasnt cancelled. Business partners made a decision that his statements hurt their business.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> I have a feeling you're trying to bait me to get banned or something, but whatever.
> 
> Ever tried Ethiopian food? Neither have they.
> 
> ...


Because I'm not watching some bullshit comic and giving them a YouTube view to end up rolling my eyes.

And Jesus Christ, aids and Ethiopian starving children jokes aren't harmless. That's some white kid who grew up on 4chan type of mentality.

I'm not here to police comedy. But we as a society need to Darwin that type of comedy out of our mindset. It's jarring to think about.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Because I'm not watching some bullshit comic and giving them a YouTube view to end up rolling my eyes.
> 
> And Jesus Christ, aids and Ethiopian starving children jokes aren't harmless. That's some white kid who grew up on 4chan type of mentality.


Yes aids and starving children aren't harmless. The joke is...


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> You can and should be able to joke about ANYTHING. Anything. Again Kanye wasnt joking and he wasnt cancelled. Business partners made a decision that his statements hurt their business.


I'm surprised people haven't mentioned how Adidas is founded by a Nazi and we should just cancel adidas altogether!!!


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

Obviously we should be ALLOWED to joke about anything. We don't need to give platforms to those who use their platform to spread racist and sexual orientation jokes. It's that simple. We need to stop laughing at that shit frankly.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Obviously we should be ALLOWED to joke about anything. We don't need to give platforms to those who use their platform to spread racist and sexual orientation jokes. It's that simple. We need to stop laughing at that shit frankly.


Then there will be nothing to laugh at except your tears. 

(Jokes)


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> Then there will be nothing to laugh at except your tears.
> 
> (Jokes)


I know you say jokes, but you really think that don't you? You actually believe without racist and gay jokes you won't have anything left to joke about, don't you?


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> I'm surprised people haven't mentioned how Adidas is founded by a Nazi and we should just cancel adidas altogether!!!


Uh fuck yes! Dismantle these fucking corporate giants!


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I know you say jokes, but you really think that don't you? You actually believe without racist and gay jokes you won't have anything left to joke about, don't you?


I find jokes of what most people would be considered taboo to be funny. Are you seriously trying to police what I laugh at?

This is what people talk about when they say the "left" (first time I even mentioned it in this thread) that they're too sensitive.



> Uh fuck yes! Dismantle these fucking corporate giants!



lol

should really look up the definition of racist before you start calling everything that associates with race as racist...


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

The irony of not being able to see yourself being ignorant when you call people who laugh at jokes racist.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 29, 2022)

We all need to strive towards being better human beings and sometimes off color jokes or insensitive statements make others believe we are ok with not being better towards our fellow man and that can be frightening. I get it. But sometimes it just means we are a human being not a better or lesser one. Not every joke is evidence of “phobic”. I for one am more in favor of free speech and the obligation not to limit free speech but ignore it. People dont like jokes? Unfollow on twitter but dont say they dont have a right to say it because for you yougins that dont know your history….the ACLU fought for the right for neonazis to march in Skokie. I dont like new or old nazis but I like the idea that a free marketplace of ideas exists because one day they will come for art speech or music you hold dear. Remember the PMRC? We are one election cycle from white christian nationalists telling YOU want is morally acceptable. 

Dont like Kanye or what he says? Dont listen to his music or buy his products. 

Dont like porn? Dont watch it

Dont like off color jokes? Dont watch Chappelle and instead watch Gaffigan.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> I find jokes of what most people would be considered taboo to be funny. Are you seriously trying to police what I laugh at?
> 
> This is what people talk about when they say the "left" (first time I even mentioned it in this thread) that they're too sensitive.
> 
> ...


No, man. I'm saying as a society we need to make a conscious change, WAKE UP (LOL), and notice that maybe the way we say things matter. Maybe the way we view things through our obviously straight, white, male lens is skewed. Maybe choose better comedians that have more intelligent outlook on humanity. Like mmr007 says, if you don't like it don't watch it, and if we can convince enough people that racist and sexist jokes aren't really funny at all, and maybe we can get comedians to start joking about things worth joking about and move our culture fucking forward and not so white male centric.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> No, man. I'm saying as a society we need to make a conscious change, WAKE UP (LOL), and notice that maybe the way we say things matter. Maybe the way we view things through our obviously straight, white, male lens is skewed. Maybe choose better comedians that have more intelligent outlook on humanity. Like mmr007 says, if you don't like it don't watch it, and if we can convince enough people that racist and sexist jokes aren't really funny at all, and maybe we can get comedians to start joking about things worth joking about and move our culture fucking forward and not so white male centric.


And you don't think that saying our culture is "WHITE MALE CENTRIC" could be construed as racist...


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> No, man. I'm saying as a society we need to make a conscious change, WAKE UP (LOL), and notice that maybe the way we say things matter. Maybe the way we view things through our obviously straight, white, male lens is skewed. Maybe choose better comedians that have more intelligent outlook on humanity. Like mmr007 says, if you don't like it don't watch it, and if we can convince enough people that racist and sexist jokes aren't really funny at all, and maybe we can get comedians to start joking about things worth joking about and move our culture fucking forward and not so white male centric.


My guy...you can't convince people things aren't funny. That's an inherent trait. https://slate.com/culture/2014/03/why-do-humans-laugh-the-evolutionary-biology-of-laughter.html


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

Nevermind lol


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 29, 2022)

If you tell people what they should be allowed to laugh at to me that is no different than saying what books should be allowed to be in a library or in a bookstore or what music should be available on whatever streaming platform you kids use these days. Dont take that road. 

I’ll say it again. My youngest daughter is gay and her friends are gay or transgender and THEY can laugh at Chappelle. My oldest daughter was sexually molested by my ex’s ex at age 13 and, as stated before I will never recover….ever…but even I laughed my ass off at Chappelle joking about Michael Jackson and molestation. 

The Kanye example was a bad one because he wasnt cancelled but if you think cancel culture doesnt exist let me introduce you to Alexi McCammond….look her up


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> If you tell people what they should be allowed to laugh at to me that is no different than saying what books should be allowed to be in a library or in a bookstore or what music should be available on whatever streaming platform you kids use these days. Dont take that road.
> 
> I’ll say it again. My youngest daughter is gay and her friends are gay or transgender and THEY can laugh at Chappelle. My oldest daughter was sexually molested by my ex’s ex at age 13 and, as stated before I will never recover….ever…but even I laughed my ass off at Chappelle joking about Michael Jackson and molestation.
> 
> The Kanye example was a bad one because he wasnt cancelled but if you think cancel culture doesnt exist let me introduce you to Alexi McCammond….look her up


I'm not telling people what to laugh at. I'm not even saying anything should happen to people who make those jokes, like legally or physically speaking.

I'm saying maybe not give those people big paychecks and ability to spread extremely easy by building algorithms to cater this type of content to people on the fence of this stuff already.

I don't want to knock house to house and ask if you have a copy of a Louis CK comedy album. I just think maybe if we all just look more deeply at what we're laughing at, and maybe think of something different to joke about we as a culture can move past all this, and find way funnier things to laugh at.


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 29, 2022)

Agreed but thats why the Kanye example is a bad one. He didnt get cancelled but when people say people shouldn't tell jokes based on race or sexual orientation or disability I say no. Tell the joke. The audience will let you know. 

I could very easily tell everyone STOP playing first person shooter video games. Enough with the emotional safe space. How bout an actual safe space where kids can go to school without needing DNA ID kits. Why on earth is everyone contributing to gun culture and SO insensitive to the act of killing another human being. When so much actual killing is going on. Why do you fantasize about killing others and racking up a kill count for rewards?

Im not a nanny state fan. Sometimes a joke, even an off colored one, is a joke and not evidence of hate. Sometimes killing people on COD is just a leisurely past time and not evidence of a true desire to kill others. 

I am just opposed to a militant stance on anything. 

We talked to evade and engaged. He got rid of his avatar and continued to engage. That is good. Talking and having different opinions and learning is good.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I'm not telling people what to laugh at. I'm not even saying anything should happen to people who make those jokes, like legally or physically speaking.
> 
> I'm saying maybe not give those people big paychecks and ability to spread extremely easy by building algorithms to cater this type of content to people on the fence of this stuff already.
> 
> I don't want to knock house to house and ask if you have a copy of a Louis CK comedy album. I just think maybe if we all just look more deeply at what we're laughing at, and maybe think of something different to joke about we as a culture can move past all this, and find way funnier things to laugh at.


On this topic, I want to say if more of your replies were worded like this, I think it would be easier to have a conversation with you even with different views.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> On this topic, I want to say if more of your replies were worded like this, I think it would be easier to have a conversation with you even with different views.


I'm not very cordial with people that seem to be against deplatforming racists and sexists.


----------



## fantom (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> I wasn't fully up to date with the degree of Kayne's ideaologies and beliefs and this thread enlightened me to some of that. However, at no point did I think Kayne shouldn't have been canceled, I just thought the incident involved a culture that I think is toxic.








Faulty generalization - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Read the section on hasty generalization.

Kanye and cancel culture aren't the same thing.


----------



## Grindspine (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> And you don't think that saying our culture is "WHITE MALE CENTRIC" could be construed as racist...


Racism, is by definition, by the majority culture that has the power to oppress other cultures. So no, it really cannot be construed as racist. Recognizing differences between peoples is not racism as long as one recognizes prejudices and works to discourage those outlooks from changing behavior toward other groups in a negative way.

That statement is recognizing that there are, in fact, differences in political and financial power on average, between different ethnic groups in this country. The constitution states that all men are created equal. The problem is that this country has failed to live up to that goal that the constitution set forth. People start from dramatically different starting lines.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 29, 2022)

Dude goes from white racism to evolutionary biology.

Definitely a nazi.


----------



## bigswifty (Oct 29, 2022)

Holy shit, this thread.. 

Lots of people confusing "Cancel Culture" with "Consequences of really stupid fucking actions" lately..

@evade.. everybody has the free will to do and say as they please. Because consequences exist as a result of those actions, does not mean people are being cancelled. We are a social species, this is how we operate as a unit.
For example, I am totally free to go into work on Monday and tell my boss "Hey boss, I slept with your wife!.. just kidding!" - but that would be an absolutely shit-brained thing to do, as I most likely wouldn't be coming in to work on Tuesday.

And to comment on your statement about jokes.. it is much too convenient for people to air their beliefs under the guise of a joke, to avoid said consequences of their actions. Hence why so many people will take a stance of mistrust against the person in these contexts.

When someone with a large social platform uses that platform to spread misinformation, hatred or deceit, then de-platforming them is a very fair consequence.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 29, 2022)

fantom said:


> Cancel culture is stupid. People shouldn't have to fear societal exile for one stupid joke or comment made out of context.


This is not a conversation about cancel culture. Cancel culture is a dog whistle intended to obfuscate the conversation. 

This is about a 45 year old man being antisemitic and whether that is right or wrong.


----------



## SexHaver420 (Oct 29, 2022)

The only people who get mad about cancel culture are all privileged assholes who are upset that there are consequences when they're a bigoted piece of shit lol. There's absolutely no reason that there should ever be any fucking debate on whether antisemitism is bad or not either and anyone who disagrees is a genuinely awful person or a troll. 

Also as an openly and visibly transgender person Jordan Peterson is a piece of shit and there's way more blatant transphobia going on now than there was like 5 years ago before I even started transitioning and was perceived as a straight white male. I literally lived my life on easy mode. It's honestly a joke how much easier it is being viewed as a straight white man than as a woman or member of any minority group in America. Straight (usually white) men are the people who complain about cancel culture the majority of the time and are the most fragile sensitive snowflakes that there are. They just hate that other people are starting to have the same rights and privileges as them because when they've always been privileged equality feels like oppression.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I'm not very cordial with people that seem to be against deplatforming racists and sexists.





StevenC said:


> This is not a conversation about cancel culture. Cancel culture is a dog whistle intended to obfuscate the conversation.
> 
> This is about a 45 year old man being antisemitic and whether that is right or wrong.


lol


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

SexHaver420 said:


> The only people who get mad about cancel culture are all privileged assholes who are upset that there are consequences when they're a bigoted piece of shit lol. There's absolutely no reason that there should ever be any fucking debate on whether antisemitism is bad or not either and anyone who disagrees is a genuinely awful person or a troll.
> 
> Also as an openly and visibly transgender person Jordan Peterson is a piece of shit and there's way more blatant transphobia going on now than there was like 5 years ago before I even started transitioning and was perceived as a straight white male. I literally lived my life on easy mode. It's honestly a joke how much easier it is being viewed as a straight white man than as a woman or member of any minority group in America. Straight (usually white) men are the people who complain about cancel culture the majority of the time and are the most fragile sensitive snowflakes that there are. They just hate that other people are starting to have the same rights and privileges as them because when they've always been privileged equality feels like oppression.


that's pretty presumptive of you


----------



## Grindspine (Oct 29, 2022)

If the privileged stopped blaming everything on immigration, "dems", the "left agenda", or anything else they feel is a threat to their church-on-sunday archaic belief systems, maybe they'd realize that a handful of rich people controlling the federal reserve, the stock markets, and puppeteering politicians are making the world a shithole for everyone.
---------------------------------

Evade has, while I was typing this, quoted two posts and responded with "lol" to one of them. He has pretty much outed himself as a troll. I am glad that this forum has a feature that allows to ignore individuals.


----------



## SexHaver420 (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> that's pretty presumptive of you


Cancel me if you don't like it >: ))))


----------



## jaxadam (Oct 29, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> If the privileged stopped blaming everything on immigration, "dems", the "left agenda", or anything else they feel is a threat to their church-on-sunday archaic belief systems, maybe they'd realize that a handful of rich people controlling the federal reserve, the stock markets, and puppeteering politicians are making the world a shithole for everyone.
> ---------------------------------


----------



## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> If the privileged stopped blaming everything on immigration, "dems", the "left agenda", or anything else they feel is a threat to their church-on-sunday archaic belief systems, maybe they'd realize that a handful of rich people controlling the federal reserve, the stock markets, and puppeteering politicians are making the world a shithole for everyone.
> ---------------------------------
> 
> Evade has, while I was typing this, quoted two posts and responded with "lol" to one of them. He has pretty much outed himself as a troll. I am glad that this forum has a feature that allows to ignore individuals.


It was the appropriate response.


----------



## SexHaver420 (Oct 29, 2022)

This is the appropriate response to this thread


----------



## fantom (Oct 29, 2022)

evade said:


> It was the appropriate response.


No, it really wasn't.


----------



## wheresthefbomb (Oct 29, 2022)

If Evade actually wanted answers to the questions he's asking, he would go and find them.


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## /wrists (Oct 29, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> If Evade actually wanted answers to the questions he's asking, he would go and find them.


That's what I'm doing. Here.


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## vilk (Oct 30, 2022)

evade said:


> That's what I'm doing. Here.


lol


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Oct 30, 2022)

Fact of the matter is that, Kanye didn't really get "cancelled".

Kanye has been like this for decades and he has interviews upon interviews to prove this and his friends and management know of this. He is a know antisemite, an Uncle Tom, and a fan of Hitler. But he never got cancelled because there is also prevalent anti semitism in the black community. And people really loved him.

The guy doubled down this past 6 years and he didn't get cancelled. Other people got cancelled for lesser stuff.

Kanye brought a lot of money to the brands, But it looks like the brand managers can now forecast he is bad for business and they would rather take the loss than have a PR nightmare which would cost their brands more in the long run.

So yeah, you can't blame cancel culture on this one. He fucked around and found out and the money decided for him.


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## TedEH (Oct 30, 2022)

Man, I took one day away from the forum and this thread hits _TEN PAGES_.


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## Glades (Oct 30, 2022)

How about we get off social media altogether? It contributes zero value and meaning to our lives.
Go knock on your neighbor's door and see if they need anything, and maybe invite them to dinner. Spend more time with your kids and teach them a new skill. Do something nice for your wife when she is not having a good day. Volunteer at your church and see if an elderly person needs help fixing up their house. Teach a neighborhood boy without a dad how to work on a truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff. Provide value to other people's lives by being a part of it and making a positive impact.


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## MFB (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> How about we get off social media altogether? It contributes zero value and meaning to our lives.
> Go knock on your neighbor's door and see if they need anything, and maybe invite them to dinner. Spend more time with your kids and teach them a new skill. Do something nice for your wife when she is not having a good day. Volunteer at your church and see if an elderly person needs help fixing up their house. Teach a neighborhood boy without a dad how to work on a truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff. Provide value to other people's lives by being a part of it and making a positive impact.



I'd be curious to know how many of these things you're actively doing while calling for an end to social media?


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## StevenC (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> How about we get off social media altogether? It contributes zero value and meaning to our lives.
> Go knock on your neighbor's door and see if they need anything, and maybe invite them to dinner. Spend more time with your kids and teach them a new skill. Do something nice for your wife when she is not having a good day. Volunteer at your church and see if an elderly person needs help fixing up their house. Teach a neighborhood boy without a dad how to work on a truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff. Provide value to other people's lives by being a part of it and making a positive impact.


See you later


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## jaxadam (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> How about we get off social media altogether? It contributes zero value and meaning to our lives.
> Go knock on your neighbor's door and see if they need anything, and maybe invite them to dinner. Spend more time with your kids and teach them a new skill. Do something nice for your wife when she is not having a good day. Volunteer at your church and see if an elderly person needs help fixing up their house. Teach a neighborhood boy without a dad how to work on a truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff. Provide value to other people's lives by being a part of it and making a positive impact.



The only problem with this is how will one find the time to keep up with all the memes have been appropriated for racism so as not to unknowingly use it as an avatar? I mean I’m glad this thread enlightened me because I had no clue who Pepe Le Pew or whoever the fuck the frog is.

And I’ll say this…. I volunteered to assistant coach my son’s flag football team this season and I got more shit from them than I do on this forum!


----------



## narad (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> How about we get off social media altogether? It contributes zero value and meaning to our lives.
> Go knock on your neighbor's door and see if they need anything, and maybe invite them to dinner. Spend more time with your kids and teach them a new skill. Do something nice for your wife when she is not having a good day. Volunteer at your church and see if an elderly person needs help fixing up their house. Teach a neighborhood boy without a dad how to work on a truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff. Provide value to other people's lives by being a part of it and making a positive impact.



Directed by Clint Eastwood.


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## Glades (Oct 30, 2022)

MFB said:


> I'd be curious to know how many of these things you're actively doing while calling for an end to social media?


Yes to all. It’s called being a man. 

Provide for your family, be a loving husband, be a role model for your children, help your community, give sacrificially. We’ve been doing this for thousands of years.


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## jaxadam (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> Yes to all. It’s called being a man.
> 
> Provide for your family, be a loving husband, be a role model for your children, help your community, give sacrificially. We’ve been doing this for thousands of years.



What about supporting single moms?


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## TedEH (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> Yes to all. It’s called being a man.


And then everyone clapped.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 30, 2022)

TedEH said:


> And then everyone clapped.


And that elderly little boy carpenter? Albert Einstein.


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## jaxadam (Oct 30, 2022)

Glades said:


> We’ve been doing this for thousands of years.



Maybe y’all but I’ve only been doing it about 10 or 15 years.


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## AMOS (Oct 31, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> God what an absolute dumbfuck.
> 
> Name a single person who was unfairly 'cancelled' and let's go through their actions leading to that happening.
> 
> Advertisers pull out if you host the moron on the news this week saying fringe shit. If it's going to cost you money to NOT boot someone from your platform the choice is simple.


Read the news dweeb


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## narad (Oct 31, 2022)

I just got back from trying to mentor a neighborhood fatherless boy, but it turned out his dad had died in a horrific truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff accident, and I was only bringing up bad memories.


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## AMOS (Oct 31, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> God what an absolute dumbfuck.
> 
> Name a single person who was unfairly 'cancelled' and let's go through their actions leading to that happening.
> 
> Advertisers pull out if you host the moron on the news this week saying fringe shit. If it's going to cost you money to NOT boot someone from your platform the choice is simple.


Mr. Potato Head? weh weh weh, it's not gender neutral  That's your new nickname, Mr. Potato Head


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## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

AMOS said:


> Mr. Potato Head? weh weh weh, it's not gender neutral  That's your new nickname, Mr. Potato Head


Why don't you actually look up Mr. Potato Head and see if it's been cancelled. Go on I'll wait. Oh, wait. You're saying you can still buy a Mr. Potato Head branded Potato head? 

Golly, gee, AMOS, that sure does seem like it wasn't cancelled.


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## thraxil (Oct 31, 2022)

When was Mr. Potato Head "cancelled"? Wikipedia just says "In February 2021 Hasbro announced a new gender-neutral version of the toy line, dropping the formal gender titles, unveiling a new "Potato Head" logo, and offering an expanded playset. While continuing to offer the classic Mr. and Mrs. characters, Hasbro was praised by some for being progressive, while others called it a "PR stunt""

Help! Help! We're being oppressed!

Also--and this may surprise you--Mr. Potato Head isn't a person.


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## AMOS (Oct 31, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> God what an absolute dumbfuck.
> 
> Name a single person who was unfairly 'cancelled' and let's go through their actions leading to that happening.
> 
> Advertisers pull out if you host the moron on the news this week saying fringe shit. If it's going to cost you money to NOT boot someone from your platform the choice is simple.


Cancel culture, also known as callout culture, is the removal (“canceling”) of support for individuals and their work due to an opinion or action on their part deemed objectionable to the parties “calling” them out. 

The individuals are typically first called out on social media to magnify the public knowledge of their perceived offense, whereupon the campaign to cancel ensues. The canceling can take several forms, including the exerting of pressure on organizations to cancel the individual’s public appearances or speaking engagements and, in the case of businesses deemed offensive, organizing boycotts of their products.

The key word here is "perceived offense" they are not a governing body. Once again, they're a farce, and they'll be gone soon just like a lot of Liberals in office once next Tuesday gets here. Thankfully.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

AMOS said:


> Cancel culture, also known as callout culture, is the removal (“canceling”) of support for individuals and their work due to an opinion or action on their part deemed objectionable to the parties “calling” them out.
> 
> The individuals are typically first called out on social media to magnify the public knowledge of their perceived offense, whereupon the campaign to cancel ensues. The canceling can take several forms, including the exerting of pressure on organizations to cancel the individual’s public appearances or speaking engagements and, in the case of businesses deemed offensive, organizing boycotts of their products.
> 
> The key word here is "perceived offense" they are not a governing body. Once again, they're a farce, and they'll be gone soon just like a lot of Liberals in office once next Tuesday gets here. Thankfully.


100 bucks says you fear "Cancel Culture" is because it calls you out, and deep down you know you're afraid that this is a war on you.


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## narad (Oct 31, 2022)

AMOS said:


> Mr. Potato Head? weh weh weh, it's not gender neutral  That's your new nickname, Mr. Potato Head



You had freedom to choose any example of someone unfairly cancelled, and your example is a toy that wasn't cancelled?


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

I gave y’all an example. 

I’ll say it again kanye is a shitty example because he did not get cancelled. He got what he deserved which is a loss of business partners eho dont want their brand associated with antisemitism. End of story. But you cannot deny there has been an angry internet mob that thinks Al Franken is Harvey Weinstein etc and has gone into “Cancel” mode.


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

I dont agree with ANY of her politics. But is that necessary to watch her in a show about space bounty hunters protecting a lil green merchandizing goldmine?


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

This is why i hate twitter. It allows people to put out every single thought they have in the marketplace of ideas when it is impossible for anyone right or left to have their thoughts pass muster with everyone on the planet. 

Yes Disney had the right to fire Gina. Its their show. But why did so many people feel compelled to call for her head?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> View attachment 116448
> 
> I gave y’all an example.
> 
> I’ll say it again kanye is a shitty example because he did not get cancelled. He got what he deserved which is a loss of business partners eho dont want their brand associated with antisemitism. End of story. But you cannot deny there has been an angry internet mob that thinks Al Franken is Harvey Weinstein etc and has gone into “Cancel” mode.



Eh, like most cases of powerful white men getting too "physical" much of what Franken did was very sanitized in the media, which focused heavily on the photo of Tweeden sleeping with body armor, but almost entirely left out the dozen or so other complaints that Franken never even tried to deny.

Sort of like Louis C.K. To a lot of folks he just whipped out his weiner at a bad time, but the media sort of leaves out the fact he blocked the exits and threatened the careers of his victims and families multiple times, during and after.

Thanks to being powerful, rich white dudes they just get to hide in their mansions for a little bit and then just go back to life as usual when the public shrugs on to the next school shooting.



mmr007 said:


> View attachment 116449
> 
> I dont agree with ANY of her politics. But is that necessary to watch her in a show about space bounty hunters protecting a lil green merchandizing goldmine?



She canceled her own career by not following masking, and later, industry standard vaccination requirements, the fact that public opinion turned against her, for some fairly questionable (maybe racist, openly transphobic, insensitive to certain people's historical struggles, etc.) social media posts that she was warned about, sort of apologized for, then doubled down on, made it an even easier decision. 

Being famous is all about public opinion. It's literally a popularity contest. It's the game.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

I don't know that these are great examples. 

I had to google Al Franken, and it sounds like he voluntarily stepped down rather than got "cancelled". I didn't search far, but I didn't find any internet mob that seemed to care. Just articles asking why he just calmly stepped aside. It reads to me like he was either "collateral damage" of MeToo but not "cancelled", or he knows whatever he did, feels some remorse, and would rather resign himself peacefully to the consequences rather than stir up any more problems. Whatever that story is, it's news to me.

I don't know that I agreed with the need to boot Gina Whatsherface from the show necessarily, right up until she used the opportunity to double down and use her cancelling to spread around the very talking points she was cancelled for. And she's been doing fine since. She's appearing in at least two more upcoming movies.



mmr007 said:


> This is why i hate twitter. It allows people to put out every single thought they have in the marketplace of ideas when it is impossible for anyone right or left to have their thoughts pass muster with everyone on the planet.


I agree with your premise, but maybe not the conclusion. Yeh, giving everyone a stage to shout from was a bad idea, and yeah, expecting everyone to agree with you all the time is going to be a losing battle, but when it comes to people who are in the public eye - actors, politicians, etc.: 



MaxOfMetal said:


> Being famous is all about public opinion. It's literally a popularity contest. It's the game.


This has _always_ been the game. The only thing that's different in modern times is that every "normie" with a cell phone can more directly participate if they want to.

There are bajillions of people out there with shitty opinions and nobody cares. It only really "matters" when it's coming from someone with authority or influence.


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> 100 bucks says you fear "Cancel Culture" is because it calls you out, and deep down you know you're afraid that this is a war on you.


why do you always target members and make it personal when people have an opposing opinion


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

Sorry but they were excellent examples and I have a fistful more. True Al Franken stepped down for the good of the country because #metoo was was gunning for his head in an election year. The irony is he never touched Tweeden who didnt become famous for her brains. She was a tit model. Literally. She flashed her boobs in every mens magazine that would have her so “joking” about her tits should not land one in hot water if that someone made their entire career about flashing their tits. If he did that to say…Rosa Parks…thats unnecessary and denigrating and should have consequences.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> why do you always target members and make it personal when people have an opposing opinion


 "Members" meaning the like 3 or 4 weirdo conservative shitheads on here? Yeah, I'll sleep tonight just fine.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Sorry but they were excellent examples


If you say so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



mmr007 said:


> The irony is he never touched Tweeden who didnt become famous for her brains. She was a tit model.


I found the article Tweeden wrote, with her accusations. If what she says is true (and I've no reason either to believe or not believe her - keeping in mind one of the accusations has photographic evidence for anyone to see) - what does being a model have to do with anything? That's not how consent works. Once again, he wasn't cancelled over a single joke or comment - his actions fit pretty squarely in the assault category. The only reason I can find him being interesting or controversial as an example is that he happens to be on the political team that this kind of behaviour isn't normal for - which.... stop and think about that one for a while.


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 31, 2022)

AMOS said:


> Cancel culture, also known as callout culture, is the removal (“canceling”) of support for individuals and their work due to an opinion or action on their part deemed objectionable to the parties “calling” them out.
> 
> The individuals are typically first called out on social media to magnify the public knowledge of their perceived offense, whereupon the campaign to cancel ensues. The canceling can take several forms, including the exerting of pressure on organizations to cancel the individual’s public appearances or speaking engagements and, in the case of businesses deemed offensive, organizing boycotts of their products.
> 
> The key word here is "perceived offense" they are not a governing body. Once again, they're a farce, and they'll be gone soon just like a lot of Liberals in office once next Tuesday gets here. Thankfully.



Why is your first example a toy from a children's movie? You so deeply fear the proverbial door slam because of potentially problematic deeply held beliefs, but fail to provide a single example of an "unfair" cancelling?

Thanks, but I didn't need the step by step breakdown of how problematic people get held responsible for their actions. I'm deeply familiar, having seen it several times already.

I grew up on Scooby Doo, and if you showed me the new trailer for the Velma Dinkley series asking me what I thought I'd tell you it's lame and unfunny. But I also don't care to give it a thought beyond that, it was designed to trigger a response from people who care about it to complain about the race swap and LGBTQ reveal.

It's actually wild that you reached for one of the scenarios where you end up looking like a massive manchild for caring *that *much about a toy from your childhood, or even weirder is caring about something from your kid's childhood that much.

What's funnier is that pointing out how stupid "cancel culture" is, is the fact that it's always tagged with a liberal accusation. Remember the Dixie Chicks? Yeah, both sides will do this shit when the pendulum swings their way.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

Don't know who Kayne is, but Kanye is an idiot, and his people need to understand that they need to either shut him up or else he needs to go away from the public eye.

His music? Not my cup of tea. People always said he was a musical genius. To me, meh, nothing I can criticize, but I'm not going to feel like I'm missing out if I ignore him.

Just saw a mini documentary about Demi Lovato over the weekend and thought the same thing. Her career isn't what it used to be and she keeps saying stupid things over and over. People don't seem like they ever paid attention to what she had to say as a role model, though, well, since she was a Disney kid or whatever, since, she was basically on drugs ever since before she left Disney. Ultimately, she's a good singer whose music is not my cup of tea, but, outside of music, she seems like she can't string a coherent thought together.

But social media makes everyone feel like they have to influence people on every level. When, most people just need to STFU.

I think there are better rappers than Kanye, who deserve the attention he gets more than he does. I think that him being an idiot gives an *excuse* to stop paying attention to him. The trouble is, the more idiotic things he says, the more the media directs their attention toward him. I feel like modern media could basically be summed up by picturing a person announcing that they figured out the meaning of life, all the cameras are on them, and, as they begin to make their important announcement to the public, Donald Trump bursts into the room and rips a fart, all of the cameras turn around, and suddenly everyone forgets what was happening before, then the person who discovered the meaning of life dies the next day, and no one cares, because all of the news coverage is on the interrupting fart.

Our media treats us as if we have a 3 second attention span. And, the fact that any form of media that plays against that assumption has failed to gain traction, probably proves that we, collectively, do have virtually no attention span.

But what can you do? I guess just ignore these idiot entertainers as much as you can, and try to keep your head held high and be the best example you can be for what the world ought to look like. There's really nothing else you can do.


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

tfw the same people calling other people racist are attributing issues to "white men" and dont see the irony


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## StevenC (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> tfw the same people calling other people racist are attributing issues to "white men" and doesnt see the irony


Repeating this won't make it an intelligent thing to say.


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## jaxadam (Oct 31, 2022)

All this talk of examples of cancel culture victims and we're just gonna gloss right over Jesus...


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Repeating this won't make it an intelligent thing to say.


but maybe it'll make people really think twice


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I grew up on Scooby Doo, and if you showed me the new trailer for the Velma Dinkley series asking me what I thought I'd tell you it's lame and unfunny. But I also don't care to give it a thought beyond that, it was designed to trigger a response from people who care about it to complain about the race swap and LGBTQ reveal.


the response is that it's stupid but im not that heavily invested in scooby doo 

i think making things about race and sexual orientation and forced diversity in movies makes me not want to watch the movie and the undertone of it is fucked up 

again though

not heavily invested in scooby snax


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## StevenC (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> but maybe it'll make people really think twice


No it won't. Because you don't have a point.

"White racism" is the same level of not a thing as the "men's rights" movement.

These classes are not systemically oppressed. Which is the concern.


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

StevenC said:


> No it won't. Because you don't have a point.
> 
> "White racism" is the same level of not a thing as the "men's rights" movement.
> 
> These classes are not systemically oppressed. Which is the concern.


denying that people can be racist against any race is inherently racist

what are you trying to even say? if a black person goes up to a white person and calls him some slur out of nowhere it's "not racism", god forbid it's the other way around

double standards x90000

probably think men can't get raped...

lmao systemically oppressed

I don't think systemic oppression exists towards any specific "sex" or "race" in the US in this day and age.


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## CTID (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> but maybe it'll make people really think twice


it's funny you say that, because thinking twice about it is what made me realize that yeah, me being a straight white dude has lended me advantages that my wife and several friends who are _not _white do not have.

being a white man doesn't mean your life can't be hard, your life just isn't hard _because _you're a white man.



evade said:


> denying that people can be racist against any race is inherently racist


i think you're confusing the definitions of "racism" and "prejudice"


evade said:


> what are you trying to even say? if a black person goes up to a white person and calls him some slur out of nowhere it's "not racism", god forbid it's the other way around


i'm truly curious how many times this has happened to you bc i grew up in south Georgia and it's never once happened to me. you sure you weren't saying or doing something that would potentially elicit that kind of response?


evade said:


> probably think men can't get raped...
> 
> lmao systemically oppressed
> 
> I don't think systemic oppression exists towards any specific "sex" or "race" in the US in this day and age.


yeah, except generally speaking calling for equality of treatment of male rape victims has been a leftist platform, and generally it's right wingers who claim that the only type of man who can be raped is gay(?)

and if you don't believe systematic oppression exists then you must have a very monochromatic friend group


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CTID said:


> it's funny you say that, because thinking twice about it is what made me realize that yeah, me being a straight white dude has lended me advantages that my wife and several friends who are _not _white do not have.
> 
> being a white man doesn't mean your life can't be hard, your life just isn't hard _because _you're a white man.


right like affirmative action and diversity quota so companies/colleges can hire less competent people based on race others than white wouldn't be a factor that could contribute to life via competition being harder than another race?


----------



## CTID (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> right like affirmative action and diversity quota so companies/colleges can hire less competent people based on race others than white wouldn't be a factor that could contribute to life via competition being harder than another race?


what makes you think that they're less competent? 90%+ of my supervisors have been white men and most of them are dogshit at what they do


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CTID said:


> what makes you think that they're less competent? 90%+ of my supervisors have been white men and most of them are dogshit at what they do


because 90% of our diversity hires are incompetent, not only technically, but also can't speak English properly and they are in an externally facing roles and can't communicate proficiently with the same language the people they're working with in a manner that can be understood.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

Systemic oppression definitely exists towards specific sex and specific race. Not sure what utopia you live in, where you don't think that's a thing.

But we have to stop and ask ourselves what those systems are and who is in charge of changing them. 

For example, if we are upset about there being a wage gap between men's salaries and women's salaries, then it is counter-productive to go after blue-collar male workers over this.

I think people just generally lack the basic fundamental problem solving skills to even find where to start, which is defining the problem in the form of "this is the current state," and "this is the desired state" and then "here are the differences between them," followed by researching why things are that way and how to change them, assuming you still think it needs to be changed after identifying the issues.


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## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> because 90% of our diversity hires are incompetent, not only technically, but also can't speak English properly and they are in an externally facing roles and can't communicate proficiently with the same language the people they're working with in a manner that can be understood.



and who is it that put them in those positions? certainly not themselves


----------



## StevenC (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> denying that people can be racist against any race is inherently racist
> 
> what are you trying to even say? if a black person goes up to a white person and calls him some slur out of nowhere it's "not racism", god forbid it's the other way around
> 
> ...


How the fuck did you get that? Like where did I say any of that?

Go read my post again. Then think. Then use a dictionary to look up all the words. Then think really hard again.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Systemic oppression definitely exists towards specific sex and specific race. Not sure what utopia you live in, where you don't think that's a thing.
> 
> But we have to stop and ask ourselves what those systems are and who is in charge of changing them.
> 
> For example, if we are upset about there being a wage gap between men's salaries and women's salaries, then it is counter-productive to go after blue-collar male workers over this.


There is no wage gap between men salaries and women's salaries. My girlfriend is making more than me for a job that is less technical than mine her 2nd year of working than my second year of working. 

It is not counter-productive to go after blue-collar male workers over this because there are only a few blue-collar women workers. They have the SAME opportunity to work. I don't see men in marketing almost ever. No one's talking about the wage gap of men selling lipstick at Ulta. 

Who do you think is in charge of those systems? Inb4 rich white men, but god forbid that rich white man is also Jewish.


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

StevenC said:


> How the fuck did you get that? Like where did I say any of that?
> 
> Go read my post again. Then think. Then use a dictionary to look up all the words. Then think really hard again.


How you feel right now is how I've felt this whole thread.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)




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## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> There is no wage gap between men salaries and women's salaries. My girlfriend is making more than me for a job that is less technical than mine her 2nd year of working than my second year of working.
> 
> It is not counter-productive to go after blue-collar male workers over this because there are only a few blue-collar women workers. They have the SAME opportunity to work. I don't see men in marketing almost ever. No one's talking about the wage gap of men selling lipstick at Ulta.
> 
> Who do you think is in charge of those systems? Inb4 rich white men, but god forbid that rich white man is also Jewish.


Average man's salary in the USA in 2019: $54k. Average woman's salary in the USA in 2019: $45k. $9k difference.

There is a salary gap. There is an hourly wage gap, too, but there are a lot of reasons why it is the way it is. Some make sense, some do not make sense.

Your argument of "Specific woman A makes more than specific man B, therefore women and men get paid the same" is literally worse than wrong, in terms of logic, but maybe that's not your strong suit.

Anyway, this will probably be locked, based on the direction this has been going, and the sudden knee in the rate of vitriol. So, I guess, don't even bother to argue, since this certainly won't end well either way.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Average man's salary in the USA in 2019: $54k. Average woman's salary in the USA in 2019: $45k. $9k difference.
> 
> There is a salary gap. There is an hourly wage gap, too, but there are a lot of reasons why it is the way it is. Some make sense, some do not make sense.
> 
> ...


Not sure how that average is being calculated on what kind of factors and components are being in play. 

You're saying a wage gap exists, I provided a counter example. 

https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil301/counter.pdf 

A wage gap exists is an absolute statement. I provided a counter example in which it was not the case. It is not absolute. 

So what is it? A wage gap exists sometimes, specifically when it's supporting your argument?


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

I once again think that the video you posted doesn't put forward the story you think it does.
He's pretty transparent about where he stands: "It's not my job to give a fuck." Also, he's a comedian. His whole job is to be edgy and rile people up - you're not supposed to base your world views on edgy comedians. 

What does any of this have to do with anything? Nobody pays for women's soccer games, therefore Kanye should be praised for spreading conspiracy theories....?


----------



## Drew (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> right like affirmative action and diversity quota so companies/colleges can hire less competent people based on race others than white wouldn't be a factor that could contribute to life via competition being harder than another race?


I always think about Jackie Robinson when I hear something like this. 

When you're in an environment with systemic racism, to get ahead and get a foot in the door, you don't have to be just as good as every other white competitor of yours. You have to be _better. _Jackie Robinson was the first black ballplayer to make it to the major leagues, and went on to win Rookie of the Year his inaugural season. 

I would HOPE that this is less true today than it was in his era... but, if you're in a white-dominated industry, and you make an effort to hire non-white candidates, you're probably giving yourself a competitive advantage by sourcing from a severely-underutilized applicant pool. The whole idea that this is somehow discriminatory to white men - as a white man - is insane to me.


----------



## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Anyway, this will probably be locked, based on the direction this has been going, and the sudden knee in the rate of vitriol. So, I guess, don't even bother to argue, since this certainly won't end well either way.


This has been me for like 10 pages now.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> I once again think that the video you posted doesn't put forward the story you think it does.
> He's pretty transparent about where he stands: "It's not my job to give a fuck."
> 
> What does any of this have to do with anything? Nobody pays for women's soccer games, therefore Kanye should be praised for spreading conspiracy theories....?


The video also says, every study shows that women are smarter than men, but somehow, how are they in the situation they're in? Allegedly... 

Anyway, yes, the thread derailed awhile back.


----------



## Drew (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Not sure how that average is being calculated on what kind of factors and components are being in play.
> 
> You're saying a wage gap exists, I provided a counter example.
> 
> ...


Well, you're right, we have to take context into account here. Part of the problem is the well-known fact that men tend to take well-paying positions like doctor, lawyer, or CEO, while women tend to take less well paid positions like female doctor, female lawyer, or female CEO. The fact a raw salary gap exists, without accounting for these choices, absolutely is misleading.


----------



## CTID (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> The video also says, every study shows that women are smarter than men, but somehow, how are they in the situation they're in? Allegedly...


so wait, your argument is - let me be clear - "if women are so smart, how are they treated as lesser than men?" are you fucking serious?


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Not sure how that average is being calculated on what kind of factors and components are being in play.
> 
> You're saying a wage gap exists, I provided a counter example.
> 
> ...


This should be pretty easy, literally 2nd grade logic type stuff...

Wage Gap: The gender pay gap or gender wage gap is the average difference between the remuneration for men and women who are working.

If you want a counter-example, then you need to provide a sample, such that the men and women in the sample are paid the same. If you provide a sample where men and women are paid differently, then you just provided an example of a wage gap. If that example shows a trend contrary in bias to what the data shows, it doesn't negate the data that was presented, but you have to understand the veracity of each data set, and then go from there.

The veracity of average salaries reported to the IRS, for example, would outweigh the veracity of "me and my girlfriend" by a significant margin. I don't think it is productive to get into the details as to why this is so. If you do not understand why this is so, then I would think it'd be easier to write you off completely as being unnecessarily argumentative for no reason other than that you like the smell of your own stink, and then simply not to engage with you.

And I do agree, as I pointed out already, that there are tons of reasons why there is a gender pay gap in the USA, and that many of those reasons are valid, simply that some of them are not. But, with the mood of this conversation, there is simply no way that you and I will be able to have a meaningful discussion about that here...


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Drew said:


> Well, you're right, we have to take context into account here. Part of the problem is the well-known fact that men tend to take well-paying positions like doctor, lawyer, or CEO, while women tend to take less well paid positions like female doctor, female lawyer, or female CEO. The fact a raw salary gap exists, without accounting for these choices, absolutely is misleading.


Could it be that women aren't good at negotiating salaries or do you think the people hiring these people are like, "Ah she's a woman, let's lowball her because she's a woman." Let me know. 

Could it be that there are inherent differences in men and women that would limit their capabilities or abilities in a professional environment that could lead to some income disparity? If so, is it really inequality? 

Let me know who gets longer paid leave, a father or a mother, in the case of childbirth.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

It might also be surprising to many people (read at least this one guy on a guitar forum) to find out that salary is not simply a function of IQ.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CTID said:


> so wait, your argument is - let me be clear - "if women are so smart, how are they treated as lesser than men?" are you fucking serious?


That's not my argument, but I can see the perspective. If women are smarter than men, supported by some study, why is it that they can't figure themselves out of a system that is supposedly "male dominated"? 

Is that a difficult concept to consider?


----------



## CTID (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> That's not my argument, but I can see the perspective. If women are smarter than men, supported by some study, why is it that they can't figure themselves out of a system that is supposedly "male dominated"?
> 
> Is that a difficult concept to consider?


"man, 400 years of slavery? That sounds like a choice!"


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

Yikes evade talking about women not being good at negotiating salaries, that's why there is a pay gap. Jesus Christ.


----------



## Drew (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Could it be that women aren't good at negotiating salaries or do you think the people hiring these people are like, "Ah she's a woman, let's lowball her because she's a woman." Let me know.
> 
> Could it be that there are inherent differences in men and women that would limit their capabilities or abilities in a professional environment that could lead to some income disparity? If so, is it really inequality?
> 
> Let me know who gets longer paid leave, a father or a mother, in the case of childbirth.


Most of these points aren't even worth addressing and you're clearly not debating in good faith here. 

But, I'll point out that under federal law, neither a mother nor a father gets paid medical leave after the birth of a child, both are federally guaranteed up to 12 weeks unpaid leave, if they want it, and the "getting pregnant and giving birth" process takes a LITTLE more of a toll on a woman than a man, most of whose hard work if you will is done after getting laid. 

Don't be intentionally obtuse.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Could it be that women aren't good at negotiating salaries or do you think the people hiring these people are like, "Ah she's a woman, let's lowball her because she's a woman." Let me know.
> 
> Could it be that there are inherent differences in men and women that would limit their capabilities or abilities in a professional environment that could lead to some income disparity? If so, is it really inequality?
> 
> Let me know who gets longer paid leave, a father or a mother, in the case of childbirth.


That's actually a good point. Women tend to take more days off from work to tend to their family obligations than men do, and that's a big part of the wage gap.

But it's funny about childbirth. You mention paid leave. Where I live, we don't get paid leave at all, only the guarantee that your job won't fire you for taking unpaid leave in order to care for a child.

And if women are paid 83% of what men are paid, does that mean that women are working 83% of the hours men are? Not quite.

There are lots of other reasons...


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> The video* [of an edgy comedian]* also *[alleges]*, every study shows that women are smarter than men


Man, this is textbook "battle of the sexes" comedy that has been going on for centuries. It's not the deep dissection of society that you might think it is.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

bostjan said:


> This should be pretty easy, literally 2nd grade logic type stuff...
> 
> Wage Gap: The gender pay gap or gender wage gap is the average difference between the remuneration for men and women who are working.
> 
> ...











6 Feminist Myths That Will Not Die


If we're genuinely committed to improving the circumstances of women, we need to get the facts straight




time.com


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

...or, by your logic of counter-example, my wife gave birth and got zero paid days off from work, therefore, all men get more paid family leave than all women ever for all reasons, because "counter example."


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> Man, this is textbook "battle of the sexes" comedy that has been going on for centuries. It's not the deep dissection of society that you might think it is.


Sometimes it's not that deep.


----------



## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Let me know who gets longer paid leave, a father or a mother, in the case of childbirth.


Actually, in many real first world (i.e. not shithole) countries, men and women can get equal parental leave for newborns.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

bostjan said:


> ...or, by your logic of counter-example, my wife gave birth and got zero paid days off from work, therefore, all men get more paid family leave than all women ever for all reasons, because "counter example."


In California, that would be illegal.


----------



## CTID (Oct 31, 2022)

there's obviously some bad-faith acting going on in here so from here on i'll not contribute to this thread hitting 20 pages.

but i've had enough days of my wife coming home from work upset to the verge of tears because men she worked with treated her like an idiot when she has a master's degree because she's a woman. i'm not going to sit here and read some shitheel commenting saying "well my girlfriend makes more money than me, so there's no wage gap" and treat it as if there is no semblance of inequality in the workplace or just the greater world at large just because his narrow perspective hasn't picked up on it.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Xaios said:


> Actually, in many real first world (i.e. not shithole) countries, men and women can get equal parental leave for newborns.


Is there still a wage gap in not shithole countries or just in the US?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CTID said:


> there's obviously some bad-faith acting going on in here so from here on i'll not contribute to this thread hitting 20 pages.
> 
> but i've had enough days of my wife coming home from work upset to the verge of tears because men she worked with treated her like an idiot when she has a master's degree because she's a woman. i'm not going to sit here and read some shitheel commenting saying "well my girlfriend makes more money than me, so there's no wage gap" and treat it as if there is no semblance of inequality in the workplace or just the greater world at large just because his narrow perspective hasn't picked up on it.


You're probably biased because she's your wife. What if she was doing things that might cause people to think she was an idiot? Do you think a Master's degree is directly correlated to intelligence?


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

Someone's showing their ass.


----------



## jaxadam (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Yikes evade talking about women not being good at negotiating salaries, that's why there is a pay gap. Jesus Christ.



To be fair, you should see my wife when car shopping...


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You're probably biased because she's your wife.


But it's _not biased_ to use your own girlfriend as a data point....?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CTID said:


> "man, 400 years of slavery? That sounds like a choice!"


You know slaves were slaves before they were brought to America to be slaves right? No one said it was a "choice". Sometimes in life, you don't get a "choice".


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Yikes evade talking about women not being good at negotiating salaries, that's why there is a pay gap. Jesus Christ.


Am I saying that or am I suggesting that it's a possibility?


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You know slaves were slaves before they were brought to America to be slaves right? No one said it was a "choice". Sometimes in life, you don't get a "choice".


Fucking duh like being black gay or trans, and maybe they're sick and tired of hearing whitey joke about it.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> But it's _not biased_ to use your own girlfriend as a data point....?


I was being consistent.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Fucking duh like being black gay or trans, and maybe they're sick and tired of hearing whitey joke about it


Or maybe they can learn to take a joke?


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Sometimes in life, you don't get a "choice".


Yikes man. _Someone somewhere_ always was given a choice - and that's the problem. When _someone other than you_ gets to make your decisions. That's a power imbalance. The exact thing you deny exists.

Any adult knows that "sometimes you don't get a choice", but the conversation should _start_ there, not _end _there.


----------



## CTID (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You know slaves were slaves before they were brought to America to be slaves right? No one said it was a "choice". Sometimes in life, you don't get a "choice".


i guess i lied because i'll make one more comment. i was quoting the unhinged lunatic this thread with originally about


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> 6 Feminist Myths That Will Not Die
> 
> 
> If we're genuinely committed to improving the circumstances of women, we need to get the facts straight
> ...


I'd check that source. It says that, even if you pair up everything as equally as possible, women still earn 6.5% less than men.

So, if your argument is:

"A gender-based wage gap does not exist."

And you provide as evidence:

A) Your girlfriend makes more money than you do
and
B) An article about how the wage gap exists, but it is not as big as the most extreme people say that it is, and, even then, some, but not all of it, can be accounted for.

Then, you still provided only evidence that shows that a gender wage gap does exist.

Again, I don't think you understand how supporting evidence works. I'd hate to see this at a trial.

"Your honour, my client is clearly innocent. He couldn't have murdered the victim at 8 PM on Sunday, because his calendar clearly has 8 PM Sunday marked off as 'Murder my neighbour.' If my client was busy murdering his neighbour at the time in question, how could he have been murdering the victim?"
"Isn't your client the victim's neighbour?"
"Yes, yes, yes... see, your honour, my client is the *victim's* neighbour, not the other way around. I rest my case. Move for dismissal."


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> Yikes man. _Someone somewhere_ always was given a choice - and that's the problem. When _someone other than you_ gets to make your decisions. That's a power imbalance. The exact thing you deny exists.


If I was given a choice, I'd be born with money. I didn't get that choice. I'm sure if my parents were given a choice, they wouldn't have immigrated from their countries here and learn a language they couldn't speak just so they could make ends meet. Maybe if they had a choice, they'd be born here. Yes, there's a power imbalance, just not at the topics the majority of people here think there are and does not impact the lives the way majority of you think it might impact their lives. 

lmao


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> Any adult knows that "sometimes you don't get a choice", but the conversation should _start_ there, not _end _there.


Sometimes people start realizing conversations don't really do much so instead of complaining about stuff they work hard and make something of their lives. 

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-the-helm-of-american-cos-122090200444_1.html 

Tell me more about this white man's world you live in.


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

Dude, the comment was _literally about slavery. _How is there no power imbalance _in slavery_?


----------



## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> Dude, the comment was _literally about slavery. _How is there no power imbalance _in slavery_?



Sounds like somebody needs to pull himself up by his shackles


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> Dude, the comment was _literally about slavery. _How is there no power imbalance _in slavery_?





MFB said:


> Sounds like somebody needs to pull himself up by his shackles


We are all slaves. 

There is an imbalance, and it's affecting an average amount of people, equally.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

bostjan said:


> I'd check that source. It says that, even if you pair up everything as equally as possible, women still earn 6.5% less than men.
> 
> So, if your argument is:
> 
> ...


"No matter how many times this wage gap claim is decisively refuted by economists, it always comes back. The bottom line: the 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week. When such relevant factors are considered, the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing.


Wage gap activists say women with identical backgrounds and jobs as men still earn less. But they always fail to take into account critical variables. Activist groups like the National Organization for Women have a fallback position: that women’s education and career choices are not truly free—they are driven by powerful sexist stereotypes. In this view, women’s tendency to retreat from the workplace to raise children or to enter fields like early childhood education and psychology, rather than better paying professions like petroleum engineering, is evidence of continued social coercion. Here is the problem: American women are among the best informed and most self-determining human beings in the world. To say that they are manipulated into their life choices by forces beyond their control is divorced from reality and demeaning, to boot." 

Didn't want to read this part I guess...


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

To the thread's point, I have not at any point defended Kayne. I used it as an opportunity to talk about cancel culture, maybe a poor example as some said, but apparently we've opened up a can of worms about race and gender inequality...


----------



## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Is there still a wage gap in not shithole countries or just in the US?


Sure there is, although it's typically less pronounced and is shrinking at a better rate. For all our progress, western societies are still pretty patriarchal and misogynistic. Thankfully that's changing, but the US seems to be doing its darndest to drag its feet.



evade said:


> There is an imbalance, and it's affecting an average amount of people, equally.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

@evade You like to go take a run ever? Have you ever taken a run you know, a little late in the day, not dark, but getting there?

My friend Albert did that and was pulled over by police. He was let go after about an hour of other cops pulling up and harassing him, and at the end they literally told him he should have worn running gear.

He wouldn't have been stopped if he was white, and that's MY priveledge as a white man that I experience every time I can put my headphones in and comfortably take a run without ANY fear.


My wife, a Hispanic woman, and my friend Albert can't do that.

Edit: my point being you live in a white world and you are a white supremacist if you don't admit that.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> @evade You like to go take a run ever? Have you ever taken a run you know, a little late in the day, not dark, but getting there?
> 
> My friend Albert did that and was pulled over by police. He was let go after about an hour of other cops pulling up and harassing him, and at the end they literally told him he should have worn running gear.
> 
> ...


This happened to several white friends with a beard as well. They thought he was homeless and was stopped in broad daylight. Actually 3 friends. One of them was biking on the sidewalk because the cars go too fast on the bike lane.

Cops are in a position of power, there are studies that show that those in a position of power tend to abuse it. This isn't something new. I don't think it's necessarily race driven, but I also think there is a possibility people who are abusing powers can also be racist. I didn't say that there is NO WAY that a cop can be racist. 

This doesn't show systemic racism. Even if every cop is racist, that wouldn't show systemic racism. It would show that we have very racist cops.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

When I voted, I did not identify as Republican or Democrat.

I voted for Biden because I thought he was more sane than Trump.

You can continue calling me a racist conservative by the way, I just wanted to clear up that I wasn't a conservative as many of the comments implied I was...


----------



## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

Honestly I dont like being referred to as “whitey”. Its derogatory. 

If anyone thinks western society particularly the US be is misogynistic and patriarchal I inbite you to visit the rest of the globe.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> This happened to several white friends with a beard as well. They thought he was homeless and was stopped in broad daylight. Actually 3 friends. One of them was biking on the sidewalk because the cars go too fast on the bike lane.
> 
> Cops are in a position of power, there are studies that show that those in a position of power tend to abuse it. This isn't something new. I don't think it's necessarily race driven, but I also think there is a possibility people who are abusing powers can also be racist. I didn't say that there is NO WAY that a cop can be racist.


Who gives a a fuck about 3 white people who are outliers in a stastic? I used my friend as an example because his experience reflects that of many, many, many black Americans and other oppressed people's including women.


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Even if every cop is racist, that wouldn't show systemic racism.


?
?
?
*??
**? ?*
?

que?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Who gives a a fuck about 3 white people who are outliers in a stastic? I used my friend as an example because his experience reflects that of many, many, many black Americans and other oppressed people's including women.


You mean you used your friend as an example because it is an anecdote that reinforces your argument and belief system. I didn't do that with my "outlier".


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> ?
> ?
> ?
> *??
> ...


Quote the whole sentence.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You mean you used your friend as an example because it is an anecdote that reinforces your argument and belief system. I didn't do that with my "outlier".


...hence why I said his experience reflects that of many black Americans. Can you provide me a weird little article saying you're less likely to be stopped by police if you're black? I have a hard time believing I'd find any of it credible, but let's see it.


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You can continue calling me a racist conservative by the way, I just wanted to clear up that I wasn't a conservative as many of the comments implied I was...


You do know that "being conservative" refers to your worldview and not who you voted for..... right?


----------



## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> When I voted, I did not identify as Republican or Democrat.



How brave of you, somebody get evade a statue or something; or maybe just some sort of trophy, to show he took part in or some other word that I can't think of, the democratic process?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> ...hence why I said his experience reflects that of many black Americans. Can you provide me a weird little article saying you're less likely to be stopped by police if you're black? I have a hard time believing I'd find any of it credible, but let's see it.


ok so no point in me looking for an article that you have already dismissed lol


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> You do know that "being conservative" refers to your worldview and not who you voted for..... right?





MFB said:


> How brave of you, somebody get evade a statue or something; or maybe just some sort of trophy, to show he took part in or some other word that I can't think of, the democratic process?


let's be real, you have been on this thread associating conservatism with trump supporters and now that the context doesnt align with your hypothesis of what my political identity was, you're using remarks such as these to scapegoat previous assertions and if not you, many others on this thread so for you to act surprised is feigning ignorance to the context of the thread


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> ok so no point in me looking for an article that you have already dismissed lol


so your source is literally "trust me bro"
?
?
_???_
_*?*_
*(question)*


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> ok so no point in me looking for an article that you have already dismissed lol


Well I just would like to see where you are getting your bad information from, because from a few different sources with one simple Google search would show that you are 5 to 8 times more likely to be stopped by police if you are dark skinned.


----------



## Drew (Oct 31, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> To be fair, you should see my wife when car shopping...


My wife was such an aggressive negotiator when she took her current job, that they made a retroactive salary adjustment to the woman they hired six months _before _her, sheepishly, because they couldn't justify having such a large pay differential on their books for two comparable hires. 

But, sure, let's go with "women are bad negotiators, that's why there's a pay gap," which is right up there with "who gets more paid family medical leave after the birth of a child, a man or a woman" somehow being evidence of anti-male discrimination. 

Again, don't be intentionally obtuse, @evade. It pushes the limits of reason to take your comments in this thread at face value.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> "No matter how many times this wage gap claim is decisively refuted by economists, it always comes back. The bottom line: the 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week. When such relevant factors are considered, the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing.
> 
> 
> Wage gap activists say women with identical backgrounds and jobs as men still earn less. But they always fail to take into account critical variables. Activist groups like the National Organization for Women have a fallback position: that women’s education and career choices are not truly free—they are driven by powerful sexist stereotypes. In this view, women’s tendency to retreat from the workplace to raise children or to enter fields like early childhood education and psychology, rather than better paying professions like petroleum engineering, is evidence of continued social coercion. Here is the problem: American women are among the best informed and most self-determining human beings in the world. To say that they are manipulated into their life choices by forces beyond their control is divorced from reality and demeaning, to boot."
> ...


I don't believe that you are too dumb to realize that "there is no 23 cent wage gap" is not the same sentence as "there is no gender wage gap," thus my earlier comment, which was focused on the source (the link they provided) to back up the statement in the article that the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing. If you click that link, and read that article, you can see that the source doesn't agree with the paraphrasing used.

Everything else, yes, but I had already said three or so times that there are a lot of nuanced arguments that justify some of the wage gap.

If I feel that I have to repeat myself again, I won't. I'll simply block you and let you enjoy your life thinking that there is no wage gap, because you posted a link to an article that says that there is a wage gap, but you were too dense to read it properly, and go on believing how great slavery was, etc.

You are obviously trolling, but I guess it's been a while since we've had any decent trolls, so I'll settle for this.


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> et's be real, you have been on this thread associating conservatism with trump supporters


That's not a subject that came up. There might be generally a link between conservatism and Trump supporters, but it has nothing to do with anything here.



evade said:


> doesnt align with your hypothesis of what my political identity was


The only thing that wouldn't align, if anything, is who you voted for - and _you_ brought that up. Nobody cares that you didn't vote for Trump.



evade said:


> you're using remarks such as these to scapegoat previous assertions and if not you, many others on this thread so for you to act surprised is feigning ignorance to the context of the thread


You're blurting out standard conservative talking points. There's no scapegoating, and no surprise about your political leanings, or - really any context to the thread other than you wanted to come to guitar forum to shit-talk "cancel culture" and all the left-leaning ideas you've associated with it for some reason.


----------



## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> If anyone thinks western society particularly the US be is misogynistic and patriarchal I inbite you to visit the rest of the globe.


Translation: "Women should be grateful that they suffer less injustice here than in other countries; here they only have a wage gap to deal with, if they lived in India, they'd be getting gangraped and attacked with acid."

Just because some places are worse is no reason not to both expect and push for the place you live in to strive to be better than it is, to fix the problems it does have.


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Honestly, for how progressive and open some of you claim to be to new ideas, I feel like some of you view a lot of the topics we've talked about to be extremely binary.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

And what new ideas are being presented here?


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Xaios said:


> Translation: "Women should be grateful that they suffer less injustice here than in other countries; here they only have a wage gap to deal with, if they lived in India, they'd be getting gangraped and attacked with acid."
> 
> Just because some places are worse is no reason not to both expect and push for the place you live in to strive to be better than it is, to fix the problems it does have.


I think the real problem is that many people disagree on what problems are truly problematic.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Honestly, for how progressive and open some of you claim to be to new ideas, I feel like some of you view a lot of the topics we've talked about to be extremely binary.


Oh we're open to new ideas alright, not sure what new ideas you've came up with.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> not sure what new ideas you've came up with


Jinx?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Oh we're open to new ideas alright, not sure what new ideas you've came up with.


You're not thinking hard enough and if I say it you'll just call me a troll.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You're not thinking hard enough and if I say it you'll just call me a troll.


If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> You're not thinking hard enough and if I say it you'll just call me a troll.


Read: I have to say it _between the lines_ because I don't want to deal with the consequences of saying the quiet parts out loud.

Just like cancel culture! Now I get it!


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

Xaios said:


> Translation: "Women should be grateful that they suffer less injustice here than in other countries; here they only have a wage gap to deal with, if they lived in India, they'd be getting gangraped and attacked with acid."
> 
> Just because some places are worse is no reason not to both expect and push for the place you live in to strive to be better than it is, to fix the problems it does have.


Dont translate for me. It isnt necessary. I said what I said. YOU are the one who drew comparisons to western societies being behind the curve compared to others. 

Feel free to make comments and I may very well agree with you. The fact that we STILL havent had a US president or enough women representation in government here in the US is disgusting but I would disagree that overall western societies are lacking. Just say the world in general which is more accurate


----------



## jaxadam (Oct 31, 2022)

Drew said:


> My wife was such an aggressive negotiator when she took her current job, that they made a retroactive salary adjustment to the woman they hired six months _before _her, sheepishly, because they couldn't justify having such a large pay differential on their books for two comparable hires.



My wife is the exact opposite. They can be like "We have a 1974 Pinto on the lot that's in pretty good condition. It's red". And she'll be like "Did you say red?" and they're like "yeah" and she's like "how much?" and they're like "$150,000" and she'll be like "I'll take it!"

So I will say, I don't know much about a wage gap, but there sure is a spending gap!


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## Drew (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Honestly, for how progressive and open some of you claim to be to new ideas, I feel like some of you view a lot of the topics we've talked about to be extremely binary.


Idunno. "Wrong" is pretty clear cut, I'm not sure where the grey area we're somehow supposed to be seeing is...?


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## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

New ideas we're open to hearing: universal basic income, affordable healthcare for all, access to abortions for all, etc...
New ideas we're NOT open to hearing: anti-semitism

How incredibly radical of us


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Drew said:


> Idunno. "Wrong" is pretty clear cut, I'm not sure where the grey area we're somehow supposed to be seeing is...?


Wrong is not clear cut. It's never been clear cut. Good vs. evil, wrong vs. right, has been a fundamental philsophical inquiry for centuries. Even under the eyes of the law, it's not "clear cut". Lawyers, those who "interpret the law" are the ones who are making this up.

https://jezebel.com/women-are-warning-each-other-that-brock-turner-is-out-a-1849446450

How did Brock Turner, a convicted rapist, walk the streets as a free man in something so clear cut?


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## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> How did Brock Turner, a convicted rapist, walk the streets as a free man in something so clear cut?



And now we've found our way back to systematic privelege, congratulations


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Wrong is not clear cut


In practice, no, but in concept, it's pretty close to clear cut - enough so for practical purposes that we don't need to bring "grey areas" into conversations that involve things like slavery and sexual assault. The world is made of grey areas, sure. But these topics don't exactly live dead center of that grey area.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Wrong is not clear cut. It's never been clear cut. Good vs. evil, wrong vs. right, has been a fundamental philsophical inquiry for centuries. Even under the eyes of the law, it's not "clear cut". Lawyers, those who "interpret the law" are the ones who are making this up.
> 
> https://jezebel.com/women-are-warning-each-other-that-brock-turner-is-out-a-1849446450
> 
> How did Brock Turner, a convicted rapist, walk the streets as a free man in something so clear cut?


You're really going to bring up Brock Turner in a thread where you're arguing against white male privilege? 

Lock it up!


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

Reddit.com/r/SelfAwareWolves


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

MFB said:


> New ideas we're open to hearing: universal basic income, affordable healthcare for all, access to abortions for all, etc...
> New ideas we're NOT open to hearing: anti-semitism
> 
> How incredibly radical of us


I'm with you on UBI and affordable healthcare, and sometimes abortions. 

On this thread, I think I've stated many times that I'm against anti-semitism and that Kayne should be condemned for what he did, but it actually seems like a good amount of people posting are really only reading what they want to read lmao


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

StevenC said:


> You're really going to bring up Brock Turner in a thread where you're arguing against white male privilege?
> 
> Lock it up!


No, lock him up...


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> No, lock him up...


Fucking yes, mate! The issue is that you brought him up to bolster your argument that we're NOT in a white male run society? That makes no sense....


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Fucking yes, mate! The issue is that you brought him up to bolster your argument that we're NOT in a white male run society? That makes no sense....


It wasn't a counterexample to any specific privilege, but one for the statement that things are clear cut wrong. If things are so clear cut, then why is a rapist roaming bars, free. I don't understand. 
I imagine you'll say white privilege or something. But if it's clear cut wrong, white privilege shouldn't be able to trump rape charges.


----------



## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> Kayne should be condemned for what he did


What was the whole point of the thread then? And why did you open it with an implied defense? Why did you argue with people for 16 pages just to land on "yeh, I guess there should be consequences"? Isn't that cRiNgE? If cancel culture isn't "consequences", then what exactly are you talking about?


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> It wasn't a counterexample to any specific privilege, but one for the statement that things are clear cut wrong. If things are so clear cut, then why is a rapist roaming bars, free. I don't understand.
> I imagine you'll say white privilege or something. But if it's clear cut wrong, white privilege shouldn't be able to trump rape charges.


....yes? You lost me here ngl. Of course white privilege should not trump rape charges, that's literally what we are saying?


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

TedEH said:


> What was the whole point of the thread then? And why did you open it with an implied defense? Why did you argue with people for 16 pages just to land on "yeh, I guess there should be consequences"? Isn't that cRiNgE? If cancel culture isn't "consequences", then what exactly are you talking about?


Because the only people who are still thinking I implied a defense are the people who are still choosing not to read what I said. Not even between the lines. I've said it so many times.


----------



## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> It wasn't a counterexample to any specific privilege, but one for the statement that things are clear cut wrong. If things are so clear cut, then why is a rapist roaming bars, free. I don't understand.
> I imagine you'll say white privilege or something. But if it's clear cut wrong, white privilege shouldn't be able to trump rape charges.



Any reasonable person knows what he did was wrong, but they'll (read as: judicial system) forget that when they're given money to, but because they're in a position of power, we can't do anything; and we can't do anything because they're backed by other white privileged dudes who are looking out for them.

It's legitimately "who watches the Watchmen?"


----------



## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

MFB said:


> Any reasonable person knows what he did was wrong, but they'll (read as: judicial system) forget that when they're given money to, but because they're in a position of power, we can't do anything; and we can't do anything because they're backed by other white privileged dudes who are looking out for them.
> 
> It's legitimately "who watches the Watchmen?"


How do we change this...?


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## MFB (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> How do we change this...?



That's the million dollar question that we've (the left) have been asking for YEARS!


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## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> YOU are the one who drew comparisons to western societies being behind the curve compared to others.


You might wanna go back and re-read what I wrote. I said that western cultures were misogynistic and patriarchal, _not_ that they're more misogynistic or patriarchal than other cultures. You inferred a comparison where none existed and made the comment about western cultures being less problematic than others.

(Aside from the US, they're certainly behind the curve compared to just about every other western society. However, given that they _are_ a western society, they're just bringing down the average.)


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

Xaios said:


> You might wanna go back and re-read what I wrote. I said that western cultures were misogynistic and patriarchal, _not_ that they're more misogynistic or patriarchal than other cultures. You inferred a comparison where none existed and made the comment about western cultures being less problematic than others.
> 
> (Aside from the US, they're certainly behind the curve compared to just about every other western society. However, given that they _are_ a western society, they're just bringing down the average.)


That is a very understandable inference to make. When you say a certain culture is A B or C that automatically implies that it is different to another culture or society. Since your observation was a complaint there is no other inference to be made if one uses any logic. Any reader of your comment would be left wondering why you singled out western culture. 

And please remember you took the liberty of translating for me in an insulting manner where no translation was warranted.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Since your observation was a complaint there is no other inference to be made if one uses any logic.


Or, you know, he was just being deliberate in his speech, in a failed attempt to stop anyone from derailing the point, which happened anyway.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2022)

So after all of this, where did we land exactly?

Everyone got to shout their talking points at each other, we learned nothing of value, we got to fill up our "SSO is a liberal echo chamber" bingo cards, and Kanye is still either "cancelled" or "suffering consequences" regardless of how "cringe" that might be.

?


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)




----------



## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> Since your observation was a complaint there is no other inference to be made if one uses any logic.


The natural point of comparison is a baseline society that isn't patriarchal and misogynistic. If you can't reason that, I can't help you.


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## mmr007 (Oct 31, 2022)

Y


Xaios said:


> The natural point of comparison is a baseline society that isn't patriarchal and misogynistic. If you can't reason that, I can't help you.


You stated western cultures are patriarchal and misogynistic. There are over 30 plus countries around the world that practice female genital mutilation. None are western. There are numerous countries that control every aspect of a woman’s life and even have “morality police” who enforce male values and one in particular in the news lately murders dissenters. None are western. Still others treat women as property. None are western. 
So when you say “western cultures are…” you sound like someone who might benefit from perspective otherwise please elaborate on your baseline imaginary society. 
I pointed out that patriarchy is not a uniquely western artifact and you took it upon yourself to translate for me implying my own misogyny. Not appreciated. Stop offering your help. I honestly dont need it.


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## jaxadam (Oct 31, 2022)

evade said:


> I think the real problem is that many people disagree on what problems are truly problematic.



This is eloquent. I mean this is a damn masterpiece. You can absolutely expect me to be borrowing this and adding my own twist. Absolutely beautiful. It’s up there with “Speed detected with detection devices”“Artificially flavored with artificial flavors” and one of my personal favorites, “Automatic hand dryer dries hands automatically”.


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> This is eloquent. I mean this is a damn masterpiece. You can absolutely expect me to be borrowing this and adding my own twist. Absolutely beautiful. It’s up there with “Speed detected with detection devices”“Artificially flavored with artificial flavors” and one of my personal favorites, “Automatic hand dryer dries hands automatically”.


you got it


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## profwoot (Oct 31, 2022)

Dear folk, as you continue being all up in your feelings defending your honor over trivia, don't forget the rest of us here having to wade through it. Much obliged.


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## Glades (Oct 31, 2022)

I’m an immigrant and a person of color. I’ve never experienced prejudice or racism, so I can’t speak to it. But I’ve always had guilt from benefitting from preferential hiring and affirmative action. I’m sure I’ve benefitted from it, and that there is probably better qualified white men that have had opportunities taken from them because of me. None of this is good either. Guilt feels dirty.
I would rather get opportunities because of my abilities and not the color of my skin.


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## Xaios (Oct 31, 2022)

mmr007 said:


> You stated western cultures are patriarchal and misogynistic. There are over 30 plus countries around the world that practice female genital mutilation. None are western. There are numerous countries that control every aspect of a woman’s life and even have “morality police” who enforce male values and one in particular in the news lately murders dissenters. None are western. Still others treat women as property. None are western.


I don't disagree with any of these points, but they weren't part of the conversation until you made it so.


mmr007 said:


> So when you say “western cultures are…” you sound like someone who might benefit from perspective


Ahhh, okay. You decided that, because I was making a specific point that _literally no one else_ _has misunderstood_, I'm the one lacking perspective. Got it.


mmr007 said:


> otherwise please elaborate on your baseline imaginary society.


It's... a society free of misogyny and patriarchy. It's a wholly theoretical construct to act as a baseline for comparison. It's the spherical cow of countries without a gender gap. How it exists in this state is immaterial to the comparison I was making, it simply does.


mmr007 said:


> I pointed out that patriarchy is not a uniquely western artifact


You said a lot more than that. Let's break it down.


mmr007 said:


> If anyone thinks western society particularly the US be is misogynistic and patriarchal I inbite you to visit the rest of the globe.


Point 1: anyone who isn't aware of patriarchy outside of western culture is ignorant, as if a person travels to a non-western country, suddenly they'll discover that patriarchy exists in other parts of the world, as if they didn't know that before.

Point 2: the prevalence of patriarchy and misogyny is worse in other parts of the world (as opposed to simply being extant as you're now claiming), as experiencing the severity of the patriarchy that exists in other parts of the world would result in the extent of American patriarchy seeming diminished in the opinion of said traveling person.

Again, I don't disagree with any of the material claims you've made about the barbarism still present in other parts of the world, nor do I disagree that we have it _relatively_ good by comparison. However, those points are completely irrelevant to the discussion about the effects of patriarchy and misogyny (such as the wage gap) that does still exist in western countries. Rather, it was irrelevant until you dragged it kicking and screaming into the discussion, and your insistence that it _must _be a point of comparison makes you look like you're defending the state of chauvinist attitudes in western countries by hammering at the fact that it's not _as_ bad compared to other places.


----------



## CanserDYI (Oct 31, 2022)

Glades said:


> I’m an immigrant and a person of color. I’ve never experienced prejudice or racism, so I can’t speak to it. But I’ve always had guilt from benefitting from preferential hiring and affirmative action. I’m sure I’ve benefitted from it, and that there is probably better qualified white men that have had opportunities taken from them because of me. None of this is good either. Guilt feels dirty.


Okay I'm not going to step anywhere near you being a person of color and your experience, but your anecdotal experience of "never experiencing prejudice or racism" and speaking of it in a public forum is just giving trolls a "gotcha! Racism doesn't exist!" card to quote after they get called out for shit. Right wing or left wing, you have to see we have a racism problem in this country(edit: read: earth), and regardless of you feeling it or dealing with it, don't give them any fuel.


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## narad (Oct 31, 2022)

It's funny someone would think they benefitted from preferential hiring, and not suffered from preferential hiring of white people:









'Distinctively Black names' still get fewer callbacks for job applications


Researchers found that applications with seemingly white names were slightly favored among the group of Fortune 500 employers in the study.




www.businessinsider.com





Also super weird to assume that there were better qualified white people for a job, when you would not be aware of them or their qualifications. Almost like you're trying to make a point on the internet.


----------



## Thesius (Oct 31, 2022)

Glades said:


> How about we get off social media altogether? It contributes zero value and meaning to our lives.
> Go knock on your neighbor's door and see if they need anything, and maybe invite them to dinner. Spend more time with your kids and teach them a new skill. Do something nice for your wife when she is not having a good day. Volunteer at your church and see if an elderly person needs help fixing up their house. Teach a neighborhood boy without a dad how to work on a truck/tractor/do carpentry/fix stuff. Provide value to other people's lives by being a part of it and making a positive impact.


Because of this post I don't feel like doing a single thing on there. I might go push over an old person instead


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## /wrists (Oct 31, 2022)

Glades said:


> I’m an immigrant and a person of color. I’ve never experienced prejudice or racism, so I can’t speak to it. But I’ve always had guilt from benefitting from preferential hiring and affirmative action. I’m sure I’ve benefitted from it, and that there is probably better qualified white men that have had opportunities taken from them because of me. None of this is good either. Guilt feels dirty.
> I would rather get opportunities because of my abilities and not the color of my skin.


Same.


----------



## AMOS (Nov 1, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Why is your first example a toy from a children's movie? You so deeply fear the proverbial door slam because of potentially problematic deeply held beliefs, but fail to provide a single example of an "unfair" cancelling?


To make an example of how silly the whole thing is. Progressive liberals are offended by toys. Don't buy one if it doesn't suit you, and grow some skin.


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## narad (Nov 1, 2022)

AMOS said:


> To make an example of how silly the whole thing is. Progressive liberals are offended by toys. Don't buy one if it doesn't suit you, and grow some skin.



To make an example of how silly the whole thing is, Hasbro decided to rebrand without any major external push to do so and conservative dorks were offended. Don't buy one if it doesn't suit you, and grow some skin.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 1, 2022)

Picture the Ram Trucks brand. They make trucks, right? And the name works, because all they make are trucks. But now let's say they add a car to the lineup. So for the next 20 years, that car is known as the Ram Trucks Car. After a couple of decades, they decide that this name is awkward and confusing, so they rename the brand "Ram", and then they have the "Ram Truck" and the "Ram Car" models. And then, they offer a kit of parts that just has all of the parts from both the truck and the car that you can piece together however you want.

That's what happened with Mr. Potato Head. They had a Mrs. Potato Head toy, but it's full designation was the Mr. Potato Head Mrs. Potato Head. So, since they had multiple non "Mr." characters in the lineup, they just renamed the family of products "Potato Head". Within that product line, there's a Mr. Potato Head, and a Mrs. Potato Head. Then, they came out with a "Potato Head Family Playset" that just came with all sorts of mixed parts, and you could combine them however you want.

That's it. Any gender politics applied to this situation was purely done to press buttons. They didn't change because of "woke politics". They didn't keep the "Mr. Potato Head" branding for the male version because of "backlash"...keeping it was always the plan.

I have a cousin who used to work there years ago, and he said he and some of his old coworkers' minds were blown by all of the bad takes surrounding their desire to just not have confusing names for their products.

If anything, you'd have thought conservatives would have cheered the striking of the "against nature" name of "Mr. Potato Head Mrs. Potato Head." It's very "Glen or Glenda", isn't it?

It's already one of the most "against God" toys you can imagine, because half of the fun is sticking all sorts of random body parts up inside their back door.


----------



## CanserDYI (Nov 1, 2022)

A pearl clutching conservative telling me to grow some skin is rich. You people are afraid of like 99% of things and gonna tell me to man up? 

Boo! Social programs! Boo! People of color moving into your neighborhood! Boo! 

Scared ya, I know. I'm really sorry.


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## zappatton2 (Nov 1, 2022)

Dear glob with the Potato Head drama! This is exactly the problem; outlets like Fox News see a headline somewhere, and without taking the time to understand it or investigate the issue to inform their viewers, they spin it into this grand "woke" conspiracy against "Real Amuricans". That's it.

They do it with all these trifling little things that wouldn't make the headlines in any other context. They do it around bigger issues, like trans rights or "Critical Race Theory", spinning it into something it's not, mischaracterizing issues in bad faith to purposely enrage the mouth-breathers, and then you have to hear the _same stupid talking points_ repeated verbatim in place of any honest attempt to understand the issue at hand.


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## narad (Nov 1, 2022)

zappatton2 said:


> Dear glob with the Potato Head drama! This is exactly the problem; outlets like Fox News see a headline somewhere, and without taking the time to understand it or investigate the issue to inform their viewers, they spin it into this grand "woke" conspiracy against "Real Amuricans". That's it.
> 
> They do it with all this trifling little things that wouldn't make the headlines in any other context. They do it around bigger issues, like trans rights or "Critical Race Theory", spinning it into something it's not, mischaracterizing issues in bad faith to purposely enrage the mouth-breathers, and then you have to hear the _same stupid talking points_ repeated verbatim in place of any honest attempt to understand the issue at hand.


Cue the litter boxes in school bathrooms for the kids identifying as animals.


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## zappatton2 (Nov 1, 2022)

narad said:


> Cue the litter boxes in school bathrooms for the kids identifying as animals.


_Exactly!!_


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Nov 1, 2022)

AMOS said:


> To make an example of how silly the whole thing is. Progressive liberals are offended by toys. Don't buy one if it doesn't suit you, and grow some skin.



Narad already pointed out the hilarity of changing the toy, and grown adult conservatives caring about a toy from their childhood.

Conservatives/Republicans participate in cancel culture as much as "liberals" do, the pendulum just hasn't swung back. Still waiting on a person who was unfairly cancelled for their own actions.


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## bostjan (Nov 1, 2022)

I'm more upset that it's not even a real fucking potato.

Look, I get it, there are insane people on both sides of the political divide. However, there's no need to contribute more insanity than we already have. It's a fake plastic potato with fake plastic eyes and fake plastic body parts. Does that deserve to be in the news?!

Meanwhile, children are getting shot on a daily basis in US schools and grandma's are getting arrested for feeding homeless people.

Kanye is an idiot. It's 2022, so that little piece of "news" is years old at this point.

Potato head isn't a real man nor a real woman. Umm ok, again, tell me something I don't know.


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## jaxadam (Nov 1, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Still waiting on a person who was unfairly cancelled for their own actions.








Kayne anyone?


Mr. Potato Head? weh weh weh, it's not gender neutral :D That's your new nickname, Mr. Potato Head Why don't you actually look up Mr. Potato Head and see if it's been cancelled. Go on I'll wait. Oh, wait. You're saying you can still buy a Mr. Potato Head branded Potato head? Golly, gee, AMOS...




www.sevenstring.org


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## TedEH (Nov 1, 2022)

While I hate contributing to this trash fire (or maybe I enjoy the trash fire, who knows), I feel like the only real valid criticism to be made of this whole "cancelling" bandwagon is the sort of guilty-by-proxy effect. By which I mean, the "oh, you still like Harry Potter? You think Dave Chapelle is funny? You work for a company whose higher-ups have done something stupid? I bet you're a terrible person too." That being said - it's a stretch, usually.

A more concrete example:
When we had Ottawa invaded by a bunch of truckers, there was a list published at some point of people who donated or otherwise publicly supported the convoy. The people on that list suffered some consequences, which I don't feel bad about - but so did the people around them who had nothing to do with it. A business owner down the street from my office at the time was outed as a supporter, and in response, people went down there and harassed their employees who had no idea what was going on. I vaguely remember a brick going through the window or something, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong. The problem in this scenario is not that the person who was outed is suffering consequences, but that the target of people's "justice" was just the regular employees trying to earn a living who likely had no idea their employer was connected to the convoy at all - and it's not like they could have done anything about it, or had time to find other jobs or something.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 1, 2022)

TedEH said:


> While I hate contributing to this trash fire (or maybe I enjoy the trash fire, who knows), I feel like the only real valid criticism to be made of this whole "cancelling" bandwagon is the sort of guilty-by-proxy effect. By which I mean, the "oh, you still like Harry Potter? You think Dave Chapelle is funny? You work for a company whose higher-ups have done something stupid? I bet you're a terrible person too." That being said - it's a stretch, usually.
> 
> A more concrete example:
> When we had Ottawa invaded by a bunch of truckers, there was a list published at some point of people who donated or otherwise publicly supported the convoy. The people on that list suffered some consequences, which I don't feel bad about - but so did the people around them who had nothing to do with it. A business owner down the street from my office at the time was outed as a supporter, and in response, people went down there and harassed their employees who had no idea what was going on. I vaguely remember a brick going through the window or something, but maybe I'm remembering that wrong. The problem in this scenario is not that the person who was outed is suffering consequences, but that the target of people's "justice" was just the regular employees trying to earn a living who likely had no idea their employer was connected to the convoy at all - and it's not like they could have done anything about it, or had time to find other jobs or something.



The fact that your final sentence carries any weight at all is bizarre to me, are you suggesting that people *should *change their jobs given enough time and that their status would go from unwilling participant, to willfully ignorant, then an accessory to?

I know your whole premise is that those people shouldn't be harmed for the actions of those above them. But I get the inkling that you feel like there is some line where that now becomes ok from your wording.

If that's the case, then I sincerely hope you don't partake in those wildly known pieces of entertainment. Because knowing and separating the art from the artist is demonstrably worse if you're going to be consistent there, to know and disregard while holding that standard of others is absolutely worse.


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## TedEH (Nov 1, 2022)

I meant it to say nothing more than they had no means to escape the consequences of someone else's actions. Anything more that that is just projecting your own interpretation into the matter.

I think it would be in their best interest to change jobs if they don't share values with the ownership, and if they have the means to do so - but I'd be willing to bet that if they landed in that job in the first place, their means were limited to begin with. The entirety of the point is that they're powerless in this situation, and shouldn't be dragged into the situation or discussion at all - given that they don't take their own stance or action that would warrant doing so (something like if they themselves came to the defense of the owners actions, etc).


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## bostjan (Nov 1, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> The fact that your final sentence carries any weight at all is bizarre to me, are you suggesting that people *should *change their jobs given enough time and that their status would go from unwilling participant, to willfully ignorant, then an accessory to?
> 
> I know your whole premise is that those people shouldn't be harmed for the actions of those above them. But I get the inkling that you feel like there is some line where that now becomes ok from your wording.
> 
> If that's the case, then I sincerely hope you don't partake in those wildly known pieces of entertainment. Because knowing and separating the art from the artist is demonstrably worse if you're going to be consistent there, to know and disregard while holding that standard of others is absolutely worse.


I read that as "even if those people who had no idea what was going on _wanted_ to jump on the bandwagon (regardless of whether they agreed or not), it's not like they could have even done anything about it anyway."

I think the rest of the post provides plenty of context to show that the intention of the sentence is not what you are projecting, but hey, maybe we are both wrong.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 1, 2022)

bostjan said:


> I read that as "even if those people who had no idea what was going on _wanted_ to jump on the bandwagon (regardless of whether they agreed or not), it's not like they could have even done anything about it anyway."
> 
> I think the rest of the post provides plenty of context to show that the intention of the sentence is not what you are projecting, but hey, maybe we are both wrong.



Not projecting, just inquiring overall. I know that TedEh means well from all of his conversations in the past and that of many people here he is absolutely one of those who is willing to flesh out his views/argue in good faith. He drew parallels to people who enjoy media made by problematic people, and those who rely on shitty people to survive. The consequences to the latter are severe and infinitely worse if they're displaced with no fault of their own.

One leads to the other, and people are generally not consistent. I know a lot of people that give the things they love a pass regardless of controversy, yet vehemently call for the necks of others for a variety of reasons.

I don't think expecting someone unless that person has the means to change jobs at a whim when told "your boss is a piece of garbage" is reasonable. I know socdems who participate in the apparent "late stage capitalism" they oppose without seeking alternatives to luxuries they live with. That's just a glaring example in the landscape right now, but is an entirely different topic.


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## TedEH (Nov 1, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Not projecting, just inquiring overall


You gatta be careful a bit with the kinds of "so what you're saying is" kinds of arguments, since those tend to come across as deliberate twisting of someone's intent. A la "so what you're saying is, you hate America, amirite?". Often when someone is digging for context between the lines of a literal statement, it's just a means to put words in someone's mouth.



Jonathan20022 said:


> parallels to people who enjoy media made by problematic people, and those who rely on shitty people to survive.


Only by the way that their connection to "the problem" is tangential, and being mad at them points your ire in a non-productive direction. Being mad at someone for continuing to like Harry Potter doesn't do anything but annoy Harry Potter fans. It puts zero dent in JKR if that's your intent. Same as throwing bricks at minimum wage workers to stick it to their employer. The employer has insurance and will be fine, while the innocent third party is the one who has to suffer for it.

Not every example is as clear cut as those - like say, cases where someone wants to boycott a game or movie, and you could argue that you don't want to support the publisher (which you'd technically be accomplishing), but you could also argue that publishers are likely to have contingencies for when a product doesn't succeed and it's the bottom-of-the-barrel workers, who make up the meat of the company but have no influence over what you're mad at, who will suffer most of the consequences by way of losing bonuses, losing upcoming contracts, etc. Big media products provide for a lot of people, but only a tiny minority get to make the kinds of decisions that make headlines.


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## Drew (Nov 1, 2022)

evade said:


> Wrong is not clear cut. It's never been clear cut. Good vs. evil, wrong vs. right, has been a fundamental philsophical inquiry for centuries. Even under the eyes of the law, it's not "clear cut". Lawyers, those who "interpret the law" are the ones who are making this up.
> 
> https://jezebel.com/women-are-warning-each-other-that-brock-turner-is-out-a-1849446450
> 
> How did Brock Turner, a convicted rapist, walk the streets as a free man in something so clear cut?


Oh idunno. I think this


evade said:


> I never listened to his music, I don't feel bad for him, and I would never say anything so fucking stupid, BUT, I think cancel culture is cringe.


...is pretty clearcut, whether or not anti-semitism is wrong, or if it's just an example of "woke cancel culture" going too far when the whole world lines up to tell Kanye to shut the fuck up. 

The fact Brock Turner managed to use his privelige to skirt out of a rape conviction because a judge agreed it wasn't fair to "ruin his whole life over 30 seconds" is a pretty textbook example of why we HAVE cancel culture, because we can't always trust the courts to do the right thing for us. 

You're making it increasingly hard to not look at your posting here and come away with the belief that you're sympathetic to antisemitism and the whole incel men's rights bullshit thing. I'd REALLY stop and think about what you're trying to say here.


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## Drew (Nov 1, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> A pearl clutching conservative telling me to grow some skin is rich. You people are afraid of like 99% of things and gonna tell me to man up?
> 
> Boo! Social programs! Boo! People of color moving into your neighborhood! Boo!
> 
> Scared ya, I know. I'm really sorry.


You know, I'll say this for conservatives - successfully branding liberals "snowflakes" for inclusive policies, while they in fact were the ones melting down every single time they saw something formerly exclusionary becoming more inclusive, would have been enough of a coup... but in doing so stealing a phrase from a book about the toxicity of modern American culture written by a gay man and using THAT as a derogatory term, that happens to be all-white, to boot, was really the icing on the cake. I don't know how the fuck they pulled it off but it's legitimately kind of impressive.


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## /wrists (Nov 1, 2022)

Drew said:


> Oh idunno. I think this
> 
> ...is pretty clearcut, whether or not anti-semitism is wrong, or if it's just an example of "woke cancel culture" going too far when the whole world lines up to tell Kanye to shut the fuck up.
> 
> ...


You can think whatever you want of me. My opinion on the matter on Kayne is pretty clear. My opinion on the matter of cancel culture is also pretty clear. My opinion on Brock Turner is also very clear. 

Trying to blur the lines so you have some way of implicating I support or believe in whatever you want to think I support or believe is entirely your right and opinion, even if it's the wrong opinion. 

I sleep fine at night.


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## Drew (Nov 1, 2022)

evade said:


> You can think whatever you want of me. My opinion on the matter on Kayne is pretty clear. My opinion on the matter of cancel culture is also pretty clear. My opinion on Brock Turner is also very clear.
> 
> Trying to blur the lines so you have some way of implicating I support or believe in whatever you want to think I support or believe is entirely your right and opinion, even if it's the wrong opinion.
> 
> I sleep fine at night.


All I'm saying is you've spent this entire thread flirting with anti-Semitism and toxic masculinity/anti-feminism. I'm not sure what your goal is here exactly, but it's not a good look.


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## TedEH (Nov 1, 2022)

Drew said:


> I'd REALLY stop and think about what you're trying to say here.


IMO there's a whole lot of points where this whole thread should have ground to a halt to reflect on how close we got to saying some pretty awful things.


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## /wrists (Nov 1, 2022)

Drew said:


> All I'm saying is you've spent this entire thread flirting with anti-Semitism and toxic masculinity/anti-feminism. I'm not sure what your goal is here exactly, but it's not a good look.


and this opinion is replaceable by any other opinion 

I'm not concerned how I'm coming off as. 

Do you wonder what you look like to a dog? 

You don't understand or refuse to believe the points I'm making, that's not on me.


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## TedEH (Nov 1, 2022)

evade said:


> I'm not concerned how I'm coming off as.


You've made this _very clear_. 



evade said:


> Do you wonder what you look like to a dog?


Honestly, a find a person's interaction with dogs to be pretty telling, in the same way as how they treat service staff, etc.


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## /wrists (Nov 1, 2022)

TedEH said:


> Honestly, a find a person's interaction with dogs to be pretty telling, in the same way as how they treat service staff, etc.


Yes. And honestly, I care more about coming off as rude to my dogs than service staff if my meat is undercooked, but that's for another day.


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## Drew (Nov 1, 2022)

TedEH said:


> IMO there's a whole lot of points where this whole thread should have ground to a halt to reflect on how close we got to saying some pretty awful things.


No shit, right? But hey, he cares less about what you and I think than he would what a dog things, which is probably for the best when we're talking about someone bragging about how little it bothers him that he sounds like a racist anti-semite and incel.


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## TedEH (Nov 1, 2022)

And that's where conversations like this get me - it always stops juuuuuuuuuust short of saying the awful thing, as if by design, and then never looping back to address them when called on it.


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## StevenC (Nov 1, 2022)

evade said:


> Do you wonder what you look like to a dog?


Yes, constantly. Do you have no existential dread at all?


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## eaeolian (Nov 1, 2022)

...I think this one has run its course...


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