# 9 string baritone, microtonal, 31 frets per octave



## ixlramp (Dec 13, 2011)

In case you're wondering, this guitar is not mine, i just think it's awesome.
www.SwordGuitars.com Official Website
Hey this looks interesting ...
"In the new year we'll be doing a run of 16-tone 6 and 7-string electric guitars. These guitars will have dual humbuckers, available in natural finish or black, and will have locking tremolo systems. In charge of production will be one of the greatest guitar makers in the world, and the first run will more than likely be under 50. These guitars will make history! Contact us if you'd like to be on the reserve list. [email protected]"


----------



## Splinterhead (Dec 13, 2011)

Uhh...not sure what to say about this. In my opinion I do see some potential but would I need special micro tonal finger prosthetics to play that thing?


----------



## bandinaboy (Dec 13, 2011)

how do you.....play....this...thing? i don't think my fingers would fit any fret on that whole guitar.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 13, 2011)

Good to see Sword's builds are starting to look more professional.


----------



## Demiurge (Dec 13, 2011)

My sausage fingers would appear to only be able to cleanly articulate the first, oh, 4 frets.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 13, 2011)

To those questioning the playability of such small frets, here's a little demonstration you can do at home. 

Grab one of your guitars with 22 or 24 frets, or 27+ if you're so inclined.  Now lay your guitar in your lap, and place the thumb of your fretting hand on the second highest fret. Pluck/pick the string. Notice how even though your finger is significantly wider than the fret space you can still use the frets? 

You only need to press the string down enough that it rests on the desired fret, and since everything from your fretting finger up to the nut is now out of the equation, you can "choke up" on those frets all you want. 

Ideally you should be fretting in a manor that your finger is as close to the desired fret as possible. This is not a new concept.


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone (Dec 13, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Good to see Sword's builds are starting to look more professional.


Save for the headstock, yeah. I always thought their stuff wasn't bad, but that headstock is so off putting for some reason. If I were to ever get one(Read-Probably never) it would have to have a reshaped headstock.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 13, 2011)

dragonblade629 said:


> Save for the headstock, yeah. I always thought their stuff wasn't bad, but that headstock is so off putting for some reason. If I were to ever get one(Read-Probably never) it would have to have a reshaped headstock.



Trust me, it's a hell of a lot better looking than his builds even a few years earlier. 






The headstock does look like a work in progress, but I guess if you do go for a full custom you'll be able to modify it. I assume at least. 

I also see the pricing has become a bit more reasonable.


----------



## JamesM (Dec 13, 2011)

Every time I see one of these, I just want to see it being played.


----------



## violent mouth (Dec 13, 2011)

im up for trying a 9 string, i think i'd end up with an injury with having to stretch my fingers that far.... R.S.I anyone?


----------



## TomAwesome (Dec 13, 2011)

Looks cool. Do we get to see it in action?


----------



## skeels (Dec 13, 2011)

Checked out MicrotonalGuitarist dot com - very cool stuff. More strings, more frets... Mmmmm.... icositrikaiphonic... tricesimoprimal... fark, that's crazy...



I like crazy ...


----------



## SYLrules88 (Dec 13, 2011)

that body's got quite a nice look to it! i could never play one of these things though


----------



## JStraitiff (Dec 13, 2011)

Lol this is like one of those concept cars you see at car shows. You prove that you can pull off a new, crazy concept but then end up releasing a normal, already-been-done model later.

I dont know how anyone could play something like this. Give it a 50" scale and maybe. lol


----------



## XEN (Dec 13, 2011)

Agreed on the headstock, but everything else looks solid.
I'm not sure I'd be able to adjust very quickly to moving away from the 12 tone scale, but it's nice to see someone going for an untapped niche in the market.


----------



## Explorer (Dec 14, 2011)

urklvt said:


> (I)t's nice to see someone going for an untapped niche in the market.



I don't know if it's really untapped, as opposed to be a niche with few who put their money where their mouth is. Lots of people talk about how they'd like to own such a microtonal instrument, but few actually spend the money. 

It's kind of like reading that thread where everyone raved about how they wanted an Agile multiscale, but (I suspect) very few actually went for it once it was available.....


----------



## TemjinStrife (Dec 14, 2011)

I'd hate to have to do a fret job on one of those.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 14, 2011)

$850 for a microtonal RG seems like a deal for those wanting this sort of stuff.

www.SwordGuitars.com Official Website


----------



## Ishan (Dec 14, 2011)

I like the idea of other EDO but I think It wouldn't be comfortable for me to play on anything but 12 or 24EDO guitars  (even 24 might be pushing it but that M.A.N. album in 24EDO sounds like a LOT of fun!)


----------



## scherzo1928 (Dec 14, 2011)

hmm, walnut graft with a walnut stain. who would have thought that looked cool.


----------



## datalore (Dec 14, 2011)

Cool concept, but if I really wanted to play microtonal stuff, I'd just play a fretless instrument.


----------



## datalore (Dec 14, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> I'd hate to have to do a fret job on one of those.



I don't think any tech would complain. I don't see how the work would be any more difficult on this guitar than on any other. It would just take longer.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth (Dec 14, 2011)

I just think it's nice to see a guitar with an extreme concept that looks like a regular guitar, instead of a paint splodge made of wood 

/traditional


----------



## TemjinStrife (Dec 14, 2011)

datalore said:


> I don't think any tech would complain. I don't see how the work would be any more difficult on this guitar than on any other. It would just take longer.



Have you seen how many frets it has?!? Fretwork is already time consuming


----------



## 77zark77 (Dec 14, 2011)

why not a fretless ? 

I know it won't be the same 

cool instrument though


----------



## Hallic (Dec 14, 2011)

JStraitiff said:


> Lol this is like one of those concept cars you see at car shows. You prove that you can pull off a new, crazy concept but then end up releasing a normal, already-been-done model later.
> 
> I dont know how anyone could play something like this. Give it a 50" scale and maybe. lol



yeah i hear you, it's like building a sevenstring, who would buy that?


----------



## MF_Kitten (Dec 14, 2011)

i really want a 7 string baritone with 24 frets per octave, with a matching bass. just sayin'.


----------



## EJA (Dec 14, 2011)

Nice to see a 31 tone as well. 

31 is surprisingly normal sounding. You get harmonic versions of many chords you're already familiar with, plus some new takes on Major/Minor.

Jon Catler | Jon Catler | CD Baby

Check out Planet Slicer I, which is in 31. Look up the same album iTunes and preview "La Religion Est Une Salope" to hear acoustic 31 tone.

Only downside to 31 is you don't have very good 5ths. But you have new consonances, so it's a neat tradeoff.


----------



## GATA4 (Dec 14, 2011)

This is crazy...never seen anything like it before. I would love to see it played


----------



## EJA (Dec 14, 2011)

And on a side note....Sword Guitars is NOT the "World's First" microtonal guitar company.

Jon Catler beat him to it in the late 90's when he started working with G & L to produce Microtonal guitars.


----------



## xwmucradiox (Dec 14, 2011)

The Armada said:


> Every time I see one of these, I just want to see it being played.



I feel the same way. I've never seen anyone play one of these in any way that seems to take advantage of the massive number of notes available. There was that one band but it seemed like the dude just riffed on typical notes and then just did some slides up and down over all the microtonal frets. I just haven't seen anyone really display much proficiency at playing a microtonal ERG.


----------



## Slunk Dragon (Dec 14, 2011)

Looks cool but good lord it looks like I couldn't play in between any of the damn frets.


----------



## Explorer (Dec 15, 2011)

The Armada said:


> Every time I see one of these, I just want to see it being played.





xwmucradiox said:


> I feel the same way. I've never seen anyone play one of these in any way that seems to take advantage of the massive number of notes available. There was that one band but it seemed like the dude just riffed on typical notes and then just did some slides up and down over all the microtonal frets. I just haven't seen anyone really display much proficiency at playing a microtonal ERG.



I used to participate at a mandolin forum, where there were other sections about other instruments. A few of us were really trying to exploit full fifths tuning on guitar, and we talked about Bob Fripp's not-at-all-self-aggrandizingly-named "*New Standard* Tuning." It's almost full fifths, except for the minor third at the top. When I'd go to Guitar Craft stuff, they'd always ask about my tuning my top string to B4, but would eventually fall back on the "superiority" of having a discontinuity in the tuning, in the same way in which a lot of Guitar Craft folks feel is a weakness in Real World Standard Tuning. In spite of having all kind of invented justifications of that minor third interval, I *never* heard anyone really leverage the supposed advantages of that out-of-place interval.


----------



## DoomJazz (Dec 15, 2011)

Microtonal! 

I'd sincerely need a video for me to understand why this was built. 

Unique, though.


----------



## Winspear (Dec 15, 2011)

DoomJazz said:


> I'd sincerely need a video for me to understand why this was built.



To play notes that we would generally not consider notes. You'll likely be familiar with these sounds from foreign music. 

I have major gas for an extremely long 8 string microtonal, which I _will_ order in the next 5 years...I just need to try build some conversion necks for my Ibby to decide which fretting system to use.


----------



## c4tze (Dec 15, 2011)

seriously, what is this shit? microtonal made in a traditional way, like the turkish, is okay ... but that the hell and how the hell and what?!?!?!?!!?!? dont distend.


----------



## xwmucradiox (Dec 15, 2011)

Here is a good video to demonstrate the musicality of a microtonal instrument for people who haven't heard one


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 15, 2011)

Okay always interesting to see the response to my microtonal posts. People were asking about videos and more information. There is a microtonal guitar forum here Microtonal Guitarist - Index

Scale example on 31 frets per octave guitar:


Death metal demo track using 16 frets per octave guitars. Headphones or quality speakers recommended as it's low tuned:

Maniacal Meditations | Last Sacrament

M.A.N. refretted their guitars to 24 frets per octave / quartertone scale, note the bass has alternating brass and silver frets:











... and here's their video (the very first commercial microtonal guitar video?):


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 15, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Trust me, it's a hell of a lot better looking than his builds even a few years earlier.


Lets be fair, he's only been building guitars for 3 years, and those early guitars were made for his own experiments in microtonality and were deliberately simple and low-cost.



JStraitiff said:


> Lol this is like one of those concept cars you see at car shows. You prove that you can pull off a new, crazy concept but then end up releasing a normal, already-been-done model later.


Not so actually, that 31 tone guitar is not a concept guitar, it's precisely an example of what he builds and sells, it was built for a customer.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 15, 2011)

ixlramp said:


> Lets be fair, he's only been building guitars for 3 years, and those early guitars were made for his own experiments in microtonality and were deliberately simple and low-cost.


 
Once again, I don't think I'm being unfair, as I've only said positive things here regarding his instruments. 

If he thought they were in any way sub-par, prototype or not, then he should not have placed them on his website as an example of his work. Especially when charging the same prices as a lot of high end, well established builders. 

As I've said in the past, they look pretty "prototype-like", though I've never played one, so I can't say they are sub-par in any way whatsoever.


----------



## EJA (Dec 15, 2011)

ixlramp said:


> Lets be fair, he's only been building guitars for 3 years, and those early guitars were made for his own experiments in microtonality and were deliberately simple and low-cost.



Then with all due respect, with only three years, how can he be a "Master Luthier"?
IAAA - Institute for the Advancement of Aural Arts

And with three years...still not the "worlds first microtonal guitar catalog"

Freenote Music

Jon Catler has been selling guitars though this site since 1999 and their luthier has been doing Microtonal guitars since the 70's!

The Last Sacrament stuff was very surprising for 16 Tone and its finally great to hear Sword play something other than a 15 second scale on a video. But honestly, I've seen his videos, the dude owns PLENTY of equipment. There's no reason that the Last Sacrament demos should sound like that.

I have to agree, however, that Sword Guitars do look very cheaply made. I'm curious also as to how he's able to turn out guitars, apparently, so quickly. It takes time to properly set up and maintain a guitar, let alone a microtonal guitar. Dressing each fret, making sure they're all level, and when you've got 30+ per octave, that's A LOT of meticulous work to truly make it shine. 

Just to comment in general on Microtones:

I was skeptical for a very long time about being able to make 'listenable' music with microtones.

At the same time, I was very naive about microtonality.

After learning about the harmonic series, which is in every single sound we hear, and that the harmonic series is composed of microtones, I realized I had to learn a bit more about this.

That and this song always kept drawing me back: 

Keep in mind, everything I'm basing my experience off of is not in relation to other Equal Temperaments, (such as the guitar of this thread) but rather Just Intonation: which is untempered.

Flat out, I am no longer interested in writing music in 12 tone anymore.
However, while I encourage anyone and everyone to explore microtonality (specifically Just Intonation), I will warn others that it is tough to understand at first. Needless to say, it requires a good understanding of traditional western music theory. And then it requires theories that aren't necessarily spelled out to well. With a handful of books and limited access to resources, it requires some serious determination. There are new rules, and the eliminations of some old ones as well. There are rules/methods which haven't been fully researched or discovered yet.

It requires a lot of learning, and a lot of patience: but the rewards are, in my opinion, worth it.

There is, also, a slight bit of ear training required.
Again, keep in mind I'm talking about Just Intonation (though I'm sure it's not too far different from other ETs)

intervals and chords based on the 11th and 13th harmonics are a bit odd at first (and some intervals based on 7 are as well) but their essence reveals itself in very little time. You also need to learn how to use it. It's kind of similar to the regular diminished chord in 12 tone--which from my experience in composition and teaching, most find to be ugly or impossible to use musically, but once they learn approaches, they discover it can be quite a beautiful chord.

Once your ear has adapted these notes, let me tell you, the level of expression capable in JI is simply astronomical and truly infinite. You don't want to go back. This doesn't interfere with listening to 12 Tone music though in the slightest (I'm listening to some right now!)

And if you're wondering "what's the point of training my ear to listen to music no one else will like?"

Here's my observations with exposing other people to Just Intonation and Microtonality:
1- Musicians are the worst to expose it to initially. They've had their ear trained a certain way, and are trying to find those connections. It's like expecting someone who only understands Mandarin to fluently interpret Cantonese. Musicians simply hear music differently.

2-Non-Musicians have been the best audience so far. I conducted a simple survey with a majority of my early-beginning students (who are all learning standard 12 tone theory) ages ranging from 9-82, those who didn't have a 'trained ear' didn't think the microtonal intervals sounded 'wrong' and they actually enjoyed it.

3- During breaks, I frequently sit around my shop and play. If I have my fretless axe, or a slide, I'll sit play music in Just Intonation, using intervals up to the 13th harmonic. No one, not the receptionist who doesn't know a B-flat from a Buick, not the customers, not my fellow teachers, had thought I was 'playing out of tune'.


----------



## EJA (Dec 15, 2011)

and just to add, check out Willie McBlind's album _Bad Thing_ on iTunes. It was the first real ear opener for me into modern music with Just Intonation. Their first album is also really good. But _Bad Thing _tops it: all in 64 tone Just Intonation


----------



## g-zs (Dec 16, 2011)

looks nice, but I think I'd have problem to play powerchords on that. Maybe without looking on fretboard would be easier...


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 16, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Once again, I don't think I'm being unfair, as I've only said positive things here regarding his instruments.


Apologies MaxOfMetal, i think i took your post the wrong way. Also my response was poorly worded


----------



## Eric Christian (Dec 18, 2011)

Interesting link I found from watching the other videos in this thread.

Quarter-tone guitar (Turkish/arabic style) - KlausDIY

I was thinking about getting a cheap guitar off of Craigslist and adding some frets to play quarter tone arabic scales like this guy Klaus did. He talks about how realistically the frets should be placed directly half way between the original frets however he seems to have installed them 2/3 of the way between the original frets instead. What do you guys the best placement for the extra frets should be?


----------



## Winspear (Dec 18, 2011)

^ depends what scales you want to play. There's an interesting website on microtonal stuff to check out different tunings. Let me find it...

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/MicrotonalTheory

'Equal temperament' tunings would be the ones with the frets placed proportionally like the pictures on the first page of this thread. 31TET being the original picture. MAN's guitars are 24TET (quartertone).


----------



## Eric Christian (Dec 18, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ depends what scales you want to play.


 
Which one would you suggest? Pretty much looking for the scale that is the most middle eastern sounding I suppose... lol... The scale that the Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred would use probably...


----------



## Eric Christian (Dec 18, 2011)

Since I'm probably going to modify an Ibanez guitar, this looks like it might be a good one to copy. It has more frets than Klaus has on his Strat though.

Oriental Series -Additional Fretted Guitar- | Ibanez Guitars

http://www.ibanez.co.jp/oriental/Features.html


----------



## UnderTheSign (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm curious how one could incorporate this in a band situation. To use it to its full potention you'd need a matching bass guitar, I guess?


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 18, 2011)

Eric Christian said:


> I was thinking about getting a cheap guitar off of Craigslist and adding some frets to play quarter tone arabic scales like this guy Klaus did. He talks about how realistically the frets should be placed directly half way between the original frets however he seems to have installed them 2/3 of the way between the original frets instead. What do you guys the best placement for the extra frets should be?


The quartertone scale is also known as 24TET (24 tone equal temperament) or 24EDO (24 Equal Divisions of the Octave). It has 24 equally spaced pitches per octave. Each step is exactly half a semitone = 50 cents. It is the standard 12TET plus 12 extra pitches added halfway between (in terms of pitch).

For 24EDO the frets are not spaced halfway between the normal frets, the fret spacings get gradually smaller up the neck, just as in 12EDO (in 12EDO fret 2 is not halfway between frets 1 and 3). To get the exact fret spacings use this fret calculator FretFind 2-D. In the 'calculation method' type '24' for 24 equal temperament. Set 'number of frets' to '48'. Enter dimensions of the neck, you can leave 'tuning' all set to 0 since this is an equal temperament. Then click 'submit'. A new page opens with the fretboard visualisation downloadable as a lifesize pdf file (PDF multiple pages). On the table of measurements, the distance from each fret to nut / previous fret / bridge, measured along the centreline of the neck, is given by 'mid to nut' 'mid to fret' 'mid to bridge'. The more tones per octave, the closer together the frets, the more precisely the frets have to be levelled to avoid excessive fretbuzz.

The black metal band 'Seal of Graphiel' modified a guitar to 24EDO by adding frets:






Traditional Middle Eastern scales are not equal temperaments but have unequally spaced pitches per octave and are variable from region to region, the pitches are artistically and subtly placed and tend not to conform to any mathematical system. However, they are very roughly similar to 24EDO, and modern Arabic music often uses 24EDO as an approximation of the traditional scales. 24EDO is being promoted by the authorities as the modern Arabic system. 24EDO certainly does sound Middle Eastern, with all those neutral intervals like neutral seconds and thirds etc. 24EDO has the advantages of having fairly playable fret spacing and including are standard 12TET.

It's a pity that Ibanez only has a few extra frets, that severely limits the scales and keys one can play in. I recommend the full 48 frets, or perhaps 24 up to the octave like the guitar above, so you can play a variety of scales and modulate to any key.

To get a good taste of 24EDO on a normal guitar see my thread here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/music-theory-lessons-techniques/161530-retune-play-quartertone-scales-microtonal-beginners-guide.html

24EDO bass by Atlansia of Japan:





24EDO conversion by Sword Guitars:




Not sure if they still do this, but Sword has done a lot of conversions by replacing the fretboard.


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 18, 2011)

Thought i should add ... the full 24 tone equal temperament fretting is the only fretting that can play all possible quartertone scales in all 24 keys of the octave. With Klaus' guitar, although the additional notes will be closer to the ancient non-equal-tempered notes, it can only play some scales in a limited number of keys. His guitar is a mix of modern 12TET and ancient additional notes, however the ancient scales do not use 12TET at all so it makes more sense to me to go for all-modern 24TET.

Depending on the scale chosen, 24TET can also sound somewhat weird: Uncanny Valley | City of the Asleep


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 18, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> I'm curious how one could incorporate this in a band situation. To use it to its full potention you'd need a matching bass guitar, I guess?


Yeah, or a fretless bass.


----------



## TemjinStrife (Dec 18, 2011)

That Kronos Quartet song has some stuff in there that is almost physically painful for me to listen to... I have perfect pitch, and going outside the 12 tone scale is really tough for me.


----------



## shredguitar7690 (Dec 19, 2011)

I think it's a cool thought, using semitones in music, but it really just sounds bad to me. Semitones are cool for an effect but musically, they usually just sound ugly imo.


----------



## EJA (Dec 19, 2011)

shredguitar7690 said:


> I think it's a cool thought, using semitones in music, but it really just sounds bad to me. Semitones are cool for an effect but musically, they usually just sound ugly imo.



You mean microtones, correct? 

You're actually using microtones already: the harmonic series is present in every sound you hear and it's composed of microtonal intervals. Play the harmonic near the fourth fret and you'll find it reads "out of tune" on a tuner, despite the fact that the string may be "in tune."

The 7th Harmonic is also quite misrepresented in 12 tone. This can be found near the 3rd fret, towards the bridge. It is not over a fret.

The notes that feedback from an overdriven amp are typically microtones as well. 

Here's some microtonal blues



If you didn't know better, would you think this is "microtonal"?


----------



## shredguitar7690 (Dec 19, 2011)

microtones yes, sorry lol. I understand all that but the fact that regular guitars aren't quite in tune with themselves doesn't make microtones any more appealing to me. If everything were just straight, perfect semitones, music would be boring and without character but I would not purposely use microtones in music. They just don't sound like individual notes to me. They just sound like out of tune versions of other notes. And I guess thats what makes them cool if you use them in the right way I suppose. They just don't sound very good to me


----------



## EJA (Dec 19, 2011)

shredguitar7690 said:


> microtones yes, sorry lol. I understand all that but the fact that regular guitars aren't quite in tune with themselves doesn't make microtones any more appealing to me. If everything were just straight, perfect semitones, music would be boring and without character but I would not purposely use microtones in music. They just don't sound like individual notes to me. They just sound like out of tune versions of other notes. And I guess thats what makes them cool if you use them in the right way I suppose. They just don't sound very good to me



In what ways have you attempted to use them that has led you to this conclusion?


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 19, 2011)

shredguitar7690 said:


> They just don't sound like individual notes to me. They just sound like out of tune versions of other notes.


I can totally understand this. Back in 1999, after briefly experimenting with a 24EDO tuning (this was my first experience of playing microtones) i lost interest saying 'there's no point' for exactly that reason


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 19, 2011)

A cover of Black Sabbath's Symptom of the Universe in 16 edo by Fabrizio Fulvio Fiale:
Symptom of an hexadecaphonic universe by Fabrizio Fulvio Fiale on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
HAHA ... this is so much fun 

More 16EDO guitar and fretless bass


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 19, 2011)

Hello Quarter Kitty!


----------



## shredguitar7690 (Dec 20, 2011)

i guess I should have never commented because until I have a guitar with microtones, I will really never know what I can do with it. Right now it seems more of a hassle than it's worth but if I had say, a year, to experiment, maybe I could provide a more educated response. In short, respect to those who play with microtones. I just don't like the sound.


----------



## Danxile (Dec 20, 2011)

Looks pretty awesome but definitely the most illogical instrument I've ever seen. The frets near the top of the neck seem to be near impossible to play.


----------



## EJA (Dec 20, 2011)

shredguitar7690 said:


> i guess I should have never commented because until I have a guitar with microtones, I will really never know what I can do with it. Right now it seems more of a hassle than it's worth but if I had say, a year, to experiment, maybe I could provide a more educated response. In short, respect to those who play with microtones. I just don't like the sound.



No worries!  
There's still a lot of microtonal music I don't care for, as steeped in microtonalism as I am.

I'd recommend getting a fretless guitar. Even if you find the microtones pointless, you'll still have an instrument you can use for 12 tone. 

There's also a bit you can do with a slide, and a few (and I mean very few) alternate tunings on regular guitar that give microtonal possibilities.





Danxile said:


> Looks pretty awesome but definitely the most illogical instrument I've ever seen. The frets near the top of the neck seem to be near impossible to play.



I've played guitars with even smaller fret spacing. It is possible, completely possible. You do not need to have your finger in between to get the sound, it only needs to stop at the right place. 

Go play a mandolin and you'll see what I mean


----------



## Konfyouzd (Dec 20, 2011)

EJA said:


> In what ways have you attempted to use them that has led you to this conclusion?


 
I think he made the conclusion based on what he's heard from other people. The same reason a lot of folks don't like atonal music.


----------



## MF_Kitten (Dec 20, 2011)

that kronos quartet song sounds fucking awesome to me. Not because it's natural to my ears, but because it isn't. i enjoy that jarring "whoah, ok, what the hell is this, and why is it not a mistake?!" feeling. Same as the M.A.N songs. i love making things that are jarring, but the 12 note division of the octave has very few jarring sounds in it, no matter what you do. the semitone is the most jarring interval, it seems.

I have spoken to Allen Hunter about this, and i'll be having it done to a guitar some day, by him. Just need to get a cheap guitar worthy of some Fuck. and i need to get all my other guitars sorted out by him first, so they play as well as they should, etc.


----------



## EJA (Dec 20, 2011)

MF_Kitten said:


> that kronos quartet song sounds fucking awesome to me. Not because it's natural to my ears, but because it isn't. i enjoy that jarring "whoah, ok, what the hell is this, and why is it not a mistake?!" feeling. Same as the M.A.N songs. i love making things that are jarring, but the 12 note division of the octave has very few jarring sounds in it, no matter what you do. the semitone is the most jarring interval, it seems.
> 
> I have spoken to Allen Hunter about this, and i'll be having it done to a guitar some day, by him. Just need to get a cheap guitar worthy of some Fuck. and i need to get all my other guitars sorted out by him first, so they play as well as they should, etc.



Great news!

Make sure you learn as much as you can about this stuff, otherwise it will be like wandering in the dark.

I highly recommend Jon Catler's book _The Nature of Music:
_Freenote Music - Catalog - Recordings
There's some great cds there as well. You can check out Willie McBlind's stuff on iTunes. And the Catler Bros. cd is out of this world for microtonal/avant garde jazz

Other books that I've found helpful are Harry Partch's _Genesis of a Music_, and Hermann Von Helmholtz's _On The Sensations of Tone_, which isn't so much about microtones as it is about the physics of sound.


----------



## scherzo1928 (Dec 20, 2011)

this thread makes me want to buil a 24 EDO axe...


----------



## EJA (Dec 20, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I think he made the conclusion based on what he's heard from other people. The same reason a lot of folks don't like atonal music.




Do you mean microtonal music?

The internet is full of people who've attempted microtonal music on cheap equipment that hasn't gone through enough phases of innovation and progression. As well as the players who may or may not have studied applicable theories for microtonality or just intonation.

It would be the equivalent of hearing the first electric guitar ever built and assuming that the future of electric guitars will always sound the same.

Most people's experience with microtones comes from hearing experimental works on the internet. If you can't name at least a handful of microtonal musicians off the top of your head, then I don't believe you're experienced enough to declare it "awful" or "ugly"


This is one of the greatest works of Microtonal music (which I'm sure the doubters are familiar with, or else how could they make such declarative statements about microtonal music?)


This album is on iTunes if you're interested. It's a beautiful work.

Not only is this microtonal (Just Intonation making use of the 7th Harmonic, which we have no fret or key for) but it utilizes the 'comma': an interval that has been thought forever unusable in the history of tuning and music.

But let's not explore uncharted territory, and don't you dare rock the boat.


----------



## RonSword (Dec 21, 2011)

So lets try this again without getting banned. Last time I wrote a thoughtful answer to many people here and they were deleted and I was banned along with a cheap insult. So this is the last time I'm signing up here. 

First off - microtonal music isn't atonal. at all. That concept is .
In fact there are many new tonal systems that exist. each equal temperament can be thought of as a subgroup of harmonics from the harmonic series- as well as having the ability to adapt ethnic scales better on the step-size level
. 
The 12-note system is simply adaptive to Greek Modes, Chromatic, and Diatonic Genera - and enharmonic genera that you don't get in 12 but you in within the Rothenburg proper versions of the scales and ET's higher in the recurrent sequence. 19-tone allows for notation of all enharmonic intervals. 31-tone allows for both "minor" and "major" chromatic semitones as well as major and minor whole tones of 10:9 and 9:8- which is what baroque and renaissance music was conceived and written in. in 12-tone 81/80 is tempered and you have an irrational whole tone.. 

if you tuned a piano to 12-tones out of 31-tone equal, you'd have more historically accurate music in 1/4 comma meantone temperament. So 12-tone is just part of the "meantone temperament" golden section- recurrent sequence of 5-7-12-19-31 - pentatonic, diatonic, albatonic, chromatic, enharmonic - or something like that. 

the recurrent sequence in "mavila temperament" is 7-9-16-25-41
for "father temperament" is 3-5-8-13-21-34

I think moment of symmetry and recurrent sequences are important for understanding how music works. For awhile Harmonic entropy and focus on just intonation harmony was the basis of a large area of microtonal theory but the new emerging theory is seemingly more categorical - and has to do with melody especially, and melodic units like tetrachords and pentachords. 

Kyle Gann was once quoted saying playing historical music like Bach and others in 12-tone equal temperament is like exhibiting a Rembrandt gallery with wax paper taped over the paintings. 

In 17-tone there are adaptive systems such as Maqamic Temperament. Instead of being adaptive to Greek modes- Maqamic temperament is adaptive to arabic maqamat rast. http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/maqamic - for technical information.
There is an advantage of 17-tone though- It also can handle the 7-note diatonic scale in a distributionally even manner with brightened fifths and most 12-tone listeners wouldn't be able to tell. instead of 2212221 its 3313331. The seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, etc in 12-tone are also tempered, we're just used to them. 

In 16-tone you get African and Inodnesian scales like Slendric, and Pelogic- often westerners will sometimes perceive foreign singers to be "out of tune" when really they're simply dividing tetrachords other than 4/3 (fourths) and pentachords other than 3/2 (fifths) in different ways.. When they hear the diatonic scale it has a magical, weird sound to them (like some of their scales do to us) - because their entire lives they've heard 8/7's leading to fifths, and compressed fifths, etc. in traditional music styles. Its engrained. 

One more important thing 16-tone and 17-tone have that 12-tone doesnt is neo-gothic cadences. Marchettus, the cadential diesis, and neo-Gothic tunings 
16-tone has 2 entirely new categories of tonality most westerners are totally unaware of. That is- Supermajor- and Subminor. 9/7 and 8/7 respectively. These are more dramatic versions of the familiar major and minor and exist in the 7-limit realm. 

Its a matter of opening your eyes and philosophically realizing that your guitar is playing harmonics and ethnomusical adaptations as far as most popular music goes. If you've ever favored an interval other than fifths to generate your music then maybe its time to look at other tunings that optimize that interval. 

New music and microtonal theory and intonation doesn't have to be a music connoisseur scene though and that's what I'm trying to personally do with my music by putting out demos and death metal in strange tunings and scales that I find are interesting. New releases in metal and guitar music for me became incredibly boring for me about 3 years ago this month when I decided to start making my own instruments. 

BTW that 31-tone guitar plays great. About the headstock- this isn't a guitar designed to go onstage and headbang with.. Although this year Sword Guitars will have factory made of seven string guitars and I'll have some fan fretted 9-string axes by Jan 2012 finished. 

I'd be interested in any projects people have that are microtonal - I saw a few people interested on here. we finally got Microtonalrecords.com up and we're looking for some experimental bands/projects.
Oh, and if you want to hear a really good microtonal guitarist look up John Schneider's music. 

-Ron @ Ninestring.org  / www.microtonalguitarist.com


----------



## EJA (Dec 21, 2011)

I was thinking about bringing up Schneider on here

People - John Schneider - WNYC

Here are a bunch of programs with Schneider on the WNYC program New Sounds; which by the way is one of the single best radio shows in existence. I've discovered such a wealth of music there, some 12 tone, some microtonal!

That program has also had a few other Microtonal guys: Lou Harrison, Jon Catler, and a good lot of Indian and Arabic musicians as well.


Ron hit it on the head with the fact about what we're used to here in the West.

We are acculturated to the 12 notes. We hear it EVERYWHERE. You cannot escape it. So it is acculturation on steroids.

That said, there is nothing preventing us from being enculturated into another culture's traditions.

Or, simply creating new sounds that exist outside of our own culture and may not belong to any others.

Microtonality and Just Intonation is only about as strange as some wacko with a telescope suggesting to the powers that be and the converted peoples that the Earth may in fact rotate around the sun.

By instantly labeling microtonal music as sounding a certain way, especially without having researched it, you're engaging in a Very ethnocentric stance.



.....And, how could I forget Robert Rich??? I'm listening to him right now!

Robert Rich | Ambient Music | Sonic Surrealism

Ambient music fans will probably know this guy. I'm not sure how much of his music uses it, but I've gathered that a good portion (maybe all, who knows) uses Just Intonation/Microtonal notes.




Oh, and Ron, just wondering, if you consider 8/7 to be 'subminor', what do you call 7/6?
7/6 for me is a 'half-minor', a term I picked up from Catler. Though I've found that 7/6 tends to be other people's 'subminor'. Just curious. I usually call 8/7 a large 2nd, or 9th, depending on the octave.


----------



## Ron Sword (Dec 23, 2011)

EJA said:


> Oh, and Ron, just wondering, if you consider 8/7 to be 'subminor', what do you call 7/6?
> 7/6 for me is a 'half-minor', a term I picked up from Catler. Though I've found that 7/6 tends to be other people's 'subminor'. Just curious. I usually call 8/7 a large 2nd, or 9th, depending on the octave.



Oh, and Eric, I dont know if i mentioned above 8/7 can be whatever it is categorically perceived as. this is the overbearing importance of categorical perception. in 16-tone the subminor third is closer to 8/7 than 7/6. ok...
12-tone fanatics will say anything is out of tune with the 12-tone scale. after everyone in microtonality takes the Just Intonation ether - everything is perceived as out of tune with Just intonation...


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 24, 2011)

I've been following this thread out of curiosity, and now I'm totally lost. Ron, your explanation sounded completely thorough, but I don't have the foundation to understand it. Is there like a diagram or something, or maybe a more rudimentary description of how tones are chosen from the harmonic series? I'd be best off starting with that.


----------



## TemjinStrife (Dec 24, 2011)

EJA said:


> Most people's experience with microtones comes from hearing experimental works on the internet. If you can't name at least a handful of microtonal musicians off the top of your head, then I don't believe you're experienced enough to declare it "awful" or "ugly"



Really, that's kind of an absurd argument.

I don't have to be able to name a bunch of deathcore bands off the top of my head to be experienced enough to know that I find deathcore to be "awful" or "ugly." Same with a lot of the more "out there" modern classical pieces I've played in orchestras, or rap, or pop country. Or, god forbid, music that is based upon intervals that do not sit right with my internal sense of pitch.

It's like the argument that comes up saying that I have to be able to play better than Rusty Cooley in order to criticize him or say that I do not like his music. Your level of exposure or skill in a certain area is irrelevant when it comes to figuring out whether or not you like something.


----------



## EJA (Dec 24, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> Really, that's kind of an absurd argument.
> 
> I don't have to be able to name a bunch of deathcore bands off the top of my head to be experienced enough to know that I find deathcore to be "awful" or "ugly." Same with a lot of the more "out there" modern classical pieces I've played in orchestras, or rap, or pop country. Or, god forbid, music that is based upon intervals that do not sit right with my internal sense of pitch.
> 
> It's like the argument that comes up saying that I have to be able to play better than Rusty Cooley in order to criticize him or say that I do not like his music. Your level of exposure or skill in a certain area is irrelevant when it comes to figuring out whether or not you like something.



I think that you'd have to be somewhat familiar with the music to criticize it, no?

The Rusty analogy doesn't make sense-I'm not saying someone should be experienced with playing it. But certainly seeing some Youtube videos or a few internet one-off microtonal pieces does not compare to listening to someone like Michael Harrison, or Terry Riley. 





Hollowway said:


> I've been following this thread out of curiosity, and now I'm totally lost. Ron, your explanation sounded completely thorough, but I don't have the foundation to understand it. Is there like a diagram or something, or maybe a more rudimentary description of how tones are chosen from the harmonic series? I'd be best off starting with that.


----------



## EJA (Dec 24, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> Really, that's kind of an absurd argument.
> 
> I don't have to be able to name a bunch of deathcore bands off the top of my head to be experienced enough to know that I find deathcore to be "awful" or "ugly." Same with a lot of the more "out there" modern classical pieces I've played in orchestras, or rap, or pop country. Or, god forbid, music that is based upon intervals that do not sit right with my internal sense of pitch.
> 
> It's like the argument that comes up saying that I have to be able to play better than Rusty Cooley in order to criticize him or say that I do not like his music. Your level of exposure or skill in a certain area is irrelevant when it comes to figuring out whether or not you like something.



Just to add--The other genres you mentioned aren't analogous because those are within the accepted mainstream/culture we're talking about. I understand what deathcore sounds like based on its popularity and relevance in our culture.


Additionally, microtonal music is not a single genre. Any genre can use it, as in the videos demonstrated in this thread have shown: blues, metal, classical, avant garde, etc.

What tends to happen is that since Microtonality is not a mainstream subject, those who tend to find it are musicians looking for something 'out-there' or avant garde. Therefore its really a sound of the avant-garde musician and not the microtones themselves.

Harry Partch would have made different sounding music regardless of whether or not he discovered Just Intonation/Microtones. 

It's like when someone says they don't care for Minimalist compositions when all they can really name is Einstein on the Beach-and have a very vague recollection at that.

Open minds go hand in hand with open ears.

again, for the millionth time, check out Willie McBlind and Michael Harrison's "Revelation" cd on iTunes. All of that is Microtonal!


----------



## Ron Sword (Dec 24, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> Really, that's kind of an absurd argument.
> 
> I don't have to be able to name a bunch of deathcore bands off the top of my head to be experienced enough to know that I find deathcore to be "awful" or "ugly." Same with a lot of the more "out there" modern classical pieces I've played in orchestras, or rap, or pop country. Or, god forbid, music that is based upon intervals that do not sit right with my internal sense of pitch.
> 
> It's like the argument that comes up saying that I have to be able to play better than Rusty Cooley in order to criticize him or say that I do not like his music. Your level of exposure or skill in a certain area is irrelevant when it comes to figuring out whether or not you like something.



Actually thats one of the best arguments. Because there are many forms of microtonal music and the academics dont make it very well. Ben Johnston's string music is WAY different than using CPS or Moments of symmetry involving 2 step sizes other than 12's tempered whole tone and the semitone. Greek tetrachord studies will teach you this alone. they experimented with tons of different whole tone sizes. 

Stephen James Taylors music is in Timon and Pumba using meta-ptolmy and mavila, so regardless of what people say, it's already indoctrinated. The children of the world are listening- and they haven't been brainwashed by academic institutions or the meantone/diatonic-only philosophy. 

Death core is a genre, guy. Metatonality is not. Its another dimension of music to music, just like dynamics and time. 

Some people regarded as best composers in the world use harmonics and just intonation and simply synthesize it all into 12-tones. Wagner, Schoenburg, Stravinsky, etc. 

 "Probably, whenever the ear and imagination have matured enough for such music, the scale and the instruments will all at once be available."
 Arnold Schoenberg (1874 - 1951), from _Theory of Harmony_ (1921) [pp. 25 - 26]


 Q: Is any musical element still susceptible to radical exploitation and development?
A: "Yes: pitch. I even risk a prediction that pitch will comprise the main difference between the 'music of the future' and our music"
 Igor Stravinsky (1882 - 1971), from _Memories and Commentaries_ (1970) [p. 115]


Q: What is your interest in the idea to break the scale into quarter-tones or smaller intervals? Is it philosophical, is it technical or what?
A: "It sounds marvellous."
 Karlheinz Stockhausen (1927 - 2007), from an interview with Richard Dufallo (1987)



Bob Moog was building microtonal keyboards, right before he passed. He managed to get a couple of Erv Wilson's keyboard designs and new intonation keyboards done. (that is musical keyboards whose world does revolve around 4ths or 5ths-4/3s or 3/2s, and extend beyond the 3rd and 5th harmonics. )

people are already using these tunings now, they're just not on seven string or touring with your favorite metal bands. They are composing for high dollar films, and getting insane grants. The guy I made that 31-tone for, just got a gig composing all the music for the entire park renovation of Fantasy Land at Disney. He will get royalties for the music that blasts through the park PA system everyday. Thats just one of his gigs from last year.... 

you said it- "internal sense of pitch" - its learned. Its nothing but acculturation to new intervals that you need to learn to enjoy and appreciate the large dimension of music pitch opens us. 

personally, I love the idea of 3 whole tones leading to a fifth, and having the same augmented-wholetone scale relationship only with diminished7ths being divided in half into 8edo. It's the sound of insanity, and 12 cant get it. 

saying something is ugly because it doesn't sit within your interval-color-gamut is really philosophical weakness if you ask me. I dont like 15-tone personally but when I hear comma pump progressions and porcupine temperament, it sounds far brighter than 12 ever did. 
Comma pump in Blackwood temperament, 15-equal by mikebattagliamusic on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free <functional harmony in 15tone. I bet you cant say you've ever heard that before. If that is ugly, then all 12-tone music is way uglier. haha. 

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Comma+pump+examples

listen to these, they are more in tune and use mostly 12-tone type categories anyways. You get the idea right? Its cycles of intervals other than fifths. It's brilliant because the 5th is getting damn old. Saying all non12-tone pitch gamut music is ugly is like saying "The harmonic series is ugly, why would you want to go beyond using the 5th harmonic".. Well one answer is: because technology allows it, and theres about 10 beautiful fractal like scales exist that just I personally know of that are just as great as the diatonic scale, that no one has ever written music in. Simply from studying the Scale-tree. 
There are great documentaries online : The Sonic Sky, and the Wilson Archives at anaphoria. I suggest looking through those before making any conclusions that pitches outside 12th root of 2 are useless, because there are death metal bands using it to disney composers using it, to "the best jazz pianist i've ever heard in my life" using it as well - dismissing it all will only leave you behind. I heard a guy take roun midnight and play it in marvel temperament with the 17th harmonic on top of lines. It was completely insane. He makes his living as a jazz pianist in NYC. This stuff makes you better at 12 too...... 

Either way I'm making hundreds of factory-run 7-string microtonal guitars next year regardless, so they'll be all over the continent. ha ha ha ha


----------



## Winspear (Dec 24, 2011)

I really hope to understand this all one day, but I figure it will take many years. Am I correct in assuming one shold have a very solid grasp of traditional theory first? Or would that actually complicate things further?


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 24, 2011)

Ron has an awesome grasp of 'temperament theory', after 3 years studying microtonal theory i still find the technical discussions of temperament theory fly over my head, but then i've been concentrating on studying Just Intonation. There is a lot of very technical information about temperaments on the web, but not so much introductory material. The way i learned JI was to go round and round all the sites until something clicks.

I recently began to understand what Mavila temperament is, and was surprised to find it's actually much simpler than i expected, it's just creating a scale by stacking flattened fifths on top of each other (subtracting an octave if the result exceeds an octave), in the case of 16EDO the flat fifth stacked is 675 cents, in 9EDO the flat fifth stacked is 666.66.. cents. The number of notes is variable upon how many times you stack. With certain numbers of notes (5,7,9) you get MOS (moment of symmetry), which is when there are only 2 step sizes in the scale.

Compare this to 12EDO where the fifth stacked is 700 cents and the result is the major scale (and it's modes) either pentatonic of heptatonic.

The purely tuned Just Intonation fifth is 702 cents, this is where the frequency ratio of the 2 pitches is precisely 3:2. Stacking JI fifths results in the Pythagorean major scale 0 204 408 498 702 906 1110 (the fourth is created by stacking downwards from the tonic and adding an octave: -702+1200=498)

Hope i got this right ... i'm still struggling with temperaments ...

The basics of microtonal theory are indeed simple, it just doesn't seem that way looking at the material out there.


----------



## Explorer (Dec 24, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> That Kronos Quartet song has some stuff in there that is almost physically painful for me to listen to... I have perfect pitch, and going outside the 12 tone scale is really tough for me.



I wonder what people from other cultures do when they have perfect pitch. 

Since equal temperament is a bit artificial, it means that your brain got wired with one particular perception of what is valid/true, and you can perceive variances from that artificial norm. 

----

As all known long-lived musical cultures developed the notes and intervals the West defines as the root, third, fifth, the basic pentatonic scale and so forth (although with slight pitch variances, but still in the basic relationship), I think this is where synthetic scales fail.

Since normal scales come about using the human ear, I think of a synthetic scale as being like learning Esperanto. You might find a club for speakers in a large city, but if I'm on the street, tired of rice, fish and seafood, and feeling like I need something close to an American beef hamburger, I'd rather speak Japanese badly and get direction anywhere in Tokyo than be pleased about being part of a small group which has mastered Esperanto.

I like being able to sit down and make music with someone from Morocco, Mongolia and Ghana spontaneously. (Yep, been in that situation.)


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2011)

EJA said:


>




Thanks. I'm still not getting it, though. I need something more rudimentary than that. The limit stuff and the fractions aren't something I've ever heard before. What I think would be useful is since these are all based on Hertz is to pick a note, like the A listed in the video, and then make a horizontal line (like a time line) with the 12 tone scale, the 24EDO, the 19, the 16, JI, etc. all on it like the dates on a time line. That would be way easier to understand (for me) than the discussion of the numbers and fractions. Does anything like that exist?

Also, does anyone have an explanation of what the Free Note 12 tone ultra plus neck is doing to get 36 different pitches with 24 frets. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I can't figure out how he's getting all those. Is that to say this is a 36EDO neck? He says they added 12 extra frets, so I can't see how the 36 pitches are being created.


----------



## Explorer (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Thanks. I'm still not getting it, though. * I need something more rudimentary than that.*



Well, all righty then!



The first minute of this introduces the fractions in the most rudimentary way possible.


----------



## Winspear (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Thanks. I'm still not getting it, though. I need something more rudimentary than that. The limit stuff and the fractions aren't something I've ever heard before. What I think would be useful is since these are all based on Hertz is to pick a note, like the A listed in the video, and then make a horizontal line (like a time line) with the 12 tone scale, the 24EDO, the 19, the 16, JI, etc. all on it like the dates on a time line. That would be way easier to understand (for me) than the discussion of the numbers and fractions. Does anything like that exist?
> 
> Also, does anyone have an explanation of what the Free Note 12 tone ultra plus neck is doing to get 36 different pitches with 24 frets. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I can't figure out how he's getting all those. Is that to say this is a 36EDO neck? He says they added 12 extra frets, so I can't see how the 36 pitches are being created.



36 frets, not 24. Standard 24EDO plus another 12. He perhaps should have said "keeps the original 12EDO and adds another 12" It's not EDO as you can see they are not spaced in the normal ratio. As for why that is, it's over my head haha. I'm just about understanding the other EDO systems now. 

I agree such a 'timeline' would be nice to see. However with a little bit of help I'm understanding that fractions video. 
Here you can view the ratios of various frets in 12EDO FretFind 2-D
Click the ? next to perpendicular fret distance. 

As you may know, our frets are approximations of notes. 
If you run through the video and compare the fractions there to the ratios on the chart, you can see the differences. For example the C sharp in the video - 5/4 - the fifth division. 1/5 = 0.2. You can see on the fretfind chart that our normal 4th fret is at 0.20630 of the string. So like the video said, ours is a bit sharp. Not a true 1/5 of the open string. And so on.

I am still unsure as to why we can't place the frets 'properly' on a fretboard without it looking like this picture below, and why it places limits on keys etc. I presume if all the strings were tuned to the same note it would not be an issue - but I'm still unsure why the frets don't fall into the same place on each string. 
Or, perhaps straight frets _could_ be used if the open strings were tuned to these new notes found on the new properly placed frets. I think I've read that someone actually - a way to try out just intonation on a normal guitar. Hmm. All incredibly confusing indeed.

A good resource http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html
This may be as close as you'll get to the timeline you wanted http://www.kylegann.com/Octave.html


----------



## EJA (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Thanks. I'm still not getting it, though. I need something more rudimentary than that. The limit stuff and the fractions aren't something I've ever heard before. What I think would be useful is since these are all based on Hertz is to pick a note, like the A listed in the video, and then make a horizontal line (like a time line) with the 12 tone scale, the 24EDO, the 19, the 16, JI, etc. all on it like the dates on a time line. That would be way easier to understand (for me) than the discussion of the numbers and fractions. Does anything like that exist?
> 
> Also, does anyone have an explanation of what the Free Note 12 tone ultra plus neck is doing to get 36 different pitches with 24 frets. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I can't figure out how he's getting all those. Is that to say this is a 36EDO neck? He says they added 12 extra frets, so I can't see how the 36 pitches are being created.




I don't believe it's 36 per octave--I think that may be a typo (I'll have to ask Jon) I'm pretty sure it's 36 total different pitches.

I've played the 12 Tone Ultra Plus before--it's a brilliant design.
I'm having a 7 string version made soon.

To start it keeps the 12 notes we're all used to--aside from 24 Edo, this is one of the only microtonal fretting systems that does this. You can play this guitar in any 12tone musical context.

If you watch my Just Intonation Resource Video, you may understand the 'limit'. So, our 12 notes represent an approximated '5-limit' meaning our harmony and chords reflect the sounds we can get by incorporating the 5th harmonic. We're not purely in tune with it, but it is represented well enough to get the idea of it. 12 tone does not represent the 7th harmonic, nor the 11th, nor the 13th.

Now the 12 tone ultra plus bumps 12 Tone Equal to a functional 13 limit system. What it does is adds frets in key areas that provide you with the 7th harmonic of a variety of fundamentals, the 11th, and the 13th. You don't have it for every single note, but you have it for enough to make plenty of music, plus if you change the guitar tuning, you get more possibilities. 

As soon as I have my 7 string 12 tone ultra plus, I will post tons and tons of information on it and how it can be used. There will be no mysteries--I hope 


Also, Hertz are a good measurement, but cents are useful to.

1200 Cents = Octave.
12 Tone Equal = 100 cents per note
24 Tone Equal = 50 cents per note
19 Tone Equal = 63 and change per note
31 Tone Equal = 38 and change per note.

Just Intonation is not an equal system, so it can't be boiled down to so many cents equally per note. The harmonic series, by the laws of physics, is not an 'equal' system.


----------



## EJA (Dec 25, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> I am still unsure as to why we can't place the frets 'properly' on a fretboard without it looking like this picture below, and why it places limits on keys etc. I presume if all the strings were tuned to the same note it would not be an issue - but I'm still unsure why the frets don't fall into the same place on each string.
> Or, perhaps straight frets _could_ be used if the open strings were tuned to these new notes found on the new properly placed frets. I think I've read that someone actually - a way to try out just intonation on a normal guitar. Hmm. All incredibly confusing indeed.




So let's bust a quick myth about Just Intonation first:

Myth: You can't change keys in Just Intonation

Truth: Wrong. You can draft more harmonic series pitches from as many fundamentals as you'd like to create more keys. Of course the number of notes required goes up. This is why you'll hear of 43 notes, 64 notes, etc. It's not as 'radical' as it sounds.

In practice, if you restrict yourself to say, 12-20 different notes, than your ability to change keys is cut short.

Here's why:

The Just Major third (5/4) of a 'D' would be an 'F#'
The Just Major fifth (3/2) of a 'B' could also be called an 'F#'

Here's the problem:

5/4 is a distance of 386 cents or so.
3/2 is a distance of 702 cents or so.

You'll have two F#'s coexisting in the system that are really close to one another and can't necessarily be used in the same context.
This small difference is known as a 'comma'
What Equal Temperament seeks to do is to round that difference out so that it can be used in a variety of different ways. Some purity of pitch is lost, but it becomes multifunctional.

If you wanted to have both you'd need some close fret spacing.

Hope this helps. I know this stuff can be confusing at first! But hang in there, it's worth it!

And to answer the question about traditional western music theory...sure, be as fluent as you can with it! Since when did knowledge become bad. Just know that in Just Intonation, some rules change, some rules disappear, and some new rules show up.

Michael Harrison put it the best way imaginable in this program:
New Sounds: Revelation: Music Meet Math - WNYC


Basically, equal temperament is like playing checkers. All the pieces (notes) can move in the same/equal way. Just Intonation is like Chess, the Pawn cannot move the same way the queen can, etc.


----------



## Winspear (Dec 25, 2011)

Gotcha, for the most part. Thanks!



EJA said:


> Here's why:
> 
> The Just Major third (5/4) of a 'D' would be an 'F#'
> The Just Major fifth (3/2) of a 'B' could also be called an 'F#'
> ...



I think I understand..but why? I can't get my head round this well enough to figure it out on paper for myself (that's how I learn things like this - then it clicks). 

That second piano piece in your link was absolutely amazing.


----------



## EJA (Dec 25, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> Gotcha, for the most part. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You mean why are the F#'s different?

Well, that just comes down to physics, nature, and how the harmonic series works.

I've always visualized Just Intonation like a tree.

The fundamental is the trunk, and the branches grow from it. In a forest, no one tree has the same set of branches, though some are similar heights and some maybe touch one another.

Equal Temperament is like a city. Everything is built for ease of movement by the needs humanity has deemed important.

There are endless aspects to Just Intonation, it isn't simply one theory or a simple tuning system. It has deep philosophical implications as well.

Glad you liked the piece! I assume you're referring to the Harrison piece?
Revelation is a must own, it's on iTunes.

La Monte's Well-Tuned Piano however....someday I hope that it's in print again.


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> What I think would be useful is since these are all based on Hertz is to pick a note, like the A listed in the video, and then make a horizontal line (like a time line) with the 12 tone scale, the 24EDO, the 19, the 16, JI, etc. all on it like the dates on a time line. That would be way easier to understand (for me) than the discussion of the numbers and fractions. Does anything like that exist?



It's easier to think in terms of cents, since this is a measure of perceived pitch and interval.
Try this page: nonoctave.com: tuning: equal divisions of the octave, all the different EDOs are lined up so you can see where the piches fall. No JI here though. '7th root of 2/1' means 7EDO etc. since 2/1 refers to the frequency of the octave (a doubling of frequency).

The 12 ultra plus design. I believe it has 36 different pitches throughout the entire range of the guitar, but the pitches available are different in each octave, which of course limits things a bit, but then i don't understand the system. If there were 36 pitches available in every octave the board would be crammed full of frets, 36 per octave. The microtonal pitches added are Just Intonation, so it's not an EDO system, hence unevenly spaced frets.


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 25, 2011)

A Just intonation interval is where the frequency ratio of the two pitches forms a simple low-number ratio like 2:1, 3:2, 4:3, 6:5, 7:4 etc.

The fractions are Just intonation intervals written as the frequency of the high note, assuming the root note has a frequency of 1 (written 1/1).
The fraction also expresses the frequency ratio of the two pitches forming an interval. The Just fifth 3/2 is the interval between two pitches whose frequencies are in the ratio 3:2.
If you have two frequencies of 2Hz and 3Hz, one will complete 2 cycles per second, the other 3 cycles per second, they come back into phase every second, after only 2 cycles of the root note, this is what creates the sound of harmony, coming back into phase very often. If the frequencies are 200Hz 300Hz they come back into phase 100 times a second.
A just interval like the neutral second 12/11 (151 cents) sounds more dissonant since the harmony is more complex, 12 cycles in the time of 11 cycles. Comes back in phase every 11 cycles of the root note. The more complex the fraction, the more dissonant the interval.

The octave is a JI interval written as 2/1 (1200 cents), an exact doubling of frequency. Just fifth 3/2 (702 cents), Just fourth 4/3 (498 cents), these are closely approximated by 12EDO. Just major third 5/4 (386 cents), Just minor third 6/5 (316 cents) are poorly approximated by 12EDO. Just septimal subminor seventh (7th harmonic) 7/4 (969 cents), Just super fourth (11th harmonic) 11/8 (551 cents) not remotely approximated.

Just intonation intervals are the universal intervals of nature and mathematics. What's the link to harmonics? Strings and air columns vibrate harmonically such that if the fundamental has a frequency of 1, the harmonics have frequencies 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 ... . All Just intervals are found as intervals between all possible pairs of harmonics. Harmonics 2 and 3 have frequencies in ratio 3:2 so the interval between is the Just fifth 3/2 (702 cents).

A single note creates 100s of harmonics from which can be derived 1000s of Just intervals. It's a universal language that would be identical on alien planets, assuming the laws of physics operate the same way there. I would expect alien music to include Just intonation.


----------



## sol niger 333 (Dec 25, 2011)

chode


----------



## EJA (Dec 25, 2011)

ixlramp said:


> The 12 ultra plus design. I believe it has 36 different pitches throughout the entire range of the guitar, but the pitches available are different in each octave, which of course limits things a bit, but then i don't understand the system. If there were 36 pitches available in every octave the board would be crammed full of frets, 36 per octave. The microtonal pitches added are Just Intonation, so it's not an EDO system, hence unevenly spaced frets.



It is not 36 Edo. (Bear, as you read this, in mind today has been an experiment in a few gin and tonics)

You have fretting for 12 Edo-unaltered.

You add a few frets here and there for 7th, 11th, and 13th harmonic ratios. So it's truly 12 tone _plus_.

"12 tone plus" is a fretting system that adds 7th harmonics

"12 tone ultra plus" includes 11 and 13.

I'll be sending my guitar out to have a 12 tone ultra plus neck made up soon (probably this week or so) -I'll have videos and sound samples out the wazoo for everyone to see.


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 25, 2011)

sol niger 333 said:


> chode


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Well, all righty then!
> 
> 
> 
> The first minute of this introduces the fractions in the most rudimentary way possible.




Yeah, I understand that part. An thanks for the link! But I don't get where the other fractions come from. .So 1/2 is splitting the string length in half, which doubles the pitch to sound the next highest octave. .That I understand. .But how the heck does 3/2 represent a perfect fifth? .3/2 reduces to 1 .1/2, .and if you pluck a string one and a half times as long you don't get a higher note (a fifth) you get a lower note. .So what do the 3 and 2 represent in 3/2? .Is it not really a fraction of the string length?

And to EJ, Ron, etc, I know a decent amount about music (ie I am a musician) and I'm still lost with this stuff. .There are just no good resources on the net to find out about it all. .The microtonal guitarist site has loads of stuff for those who all ready understand, but me seeing, e.g. Ron's posts about all the numbers, fractions, divisions, etc. just confuse me.


----------



## EJA (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I understand that part. An thanks for the link! But I don't get where the other fractions come from. .So 1/2 is splitting the string length in half, which doubles the pitch to sound the next highest octave. .That I understand. .But how the heck does 3/2 represent a perfect fifth? .3/2 reduces to 1 .1/2, .and if you pluck a string one and a half times as long you don't get a higher note (a fifth) you get a lower note. .So what do the 3 and 2 represent in 3/2? .Is it not really a fraction of the string length?
> 
> And to EJ, Ron, etc, I know a decent amount about music (ie I am a musician) and I'm still lost with this stuff. .There are just no good resources on the net to find out about it all. .The microtonal guitarist site has loads of stuff for those who all ready understand, but me seeing, e.g. Ron's posts about all the numbers, fractions, divisions, etc. just confuse me.



You're correct sir--the net sucks for easy information.

Here's why 3/2 is the perfect fifth.

First off, here's why it's called 3/2.

1/1 is the first note.
2/1 is the note doubled, the octave.
the 3rd harmonic can be expressed has 3/1 (a 3rd the length in relation to the full (1) length), but since it comes after the 2nd harmonic, the 1 is upped to 2, thus 3/2.

A 3rd the length of a string creates our common 'fifth'--why? Physics--that's just the note that shows up. If you take a string and place a division at 1/3, you'll get the '5th' that the string is tuned to. That's just the note that is created. a 4th the length can be reduced to 2, which lowers to 1. 5 is prime and can't be reduced, thus it is a new note. a fifth of a string is our common 'major 3rd', just slightly flatter than the west is used to.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2011)

EJA said:


> You're correct sir--the net sucks for easy information.
> 
> Here's why 3/2 is the perfect fifth.
> 
> ...


Cool! That explains a lot. So in terms of physics, splitting the string into 3 sections will result in a fifth, right? So if I have a length of string, and I divide it by 3, I end up with 3 vibrating lengths and 4 notes. The first node is the note we started with, the 4th node is the octave, and you're saying the 3rd note is the fifth, or the 2nd node is?


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> So 1/2 is splitting the string length in half, which doubles the pitch to sound the next highest octave. .That I understand. .But how the heck does 3/2 represent a perfect fifth? .3/2 reduces to 1 .1/2, .and if you pluck a string one and a half times as long you don't get a higher note (a fifth) you get a lower note. .So what do the 3 and 2 represent in 3/2? .Is it not really a fraction of the string length?


In my post above i explain what the fractions mean 

The Just fifth is when you multiply the string length by 2/3 = 0.667, the 7th fret is at a distance from the bridge of 2/3 the scale length.
Frequency is the inverse of string length, so multiplying the string length by 2/3 multiplies the frequency by 3/2, a Just fifth, pitch up by 702 cents.
So the 3 and 2 in 3/2 represent the frequency ratio 3:2 and string length ratio 2:3

That Kyle Gann 'introduction' to JI seems to get complex very quick, it's not basic enough.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2011)

ixlramp said:


> In my post above i explain what the fractions mean
> 
> The Just fifth is when you multiply the string length by 2/3 = 0.667, the 7th fret is at a distance from the bridge of 2/3 the scale length.
> Frequency is the inverse of string length, so multiplying the string length by 2/3 multiplies the frequency by 3/2, a Just fifth, pitch up by 702 cents.
> ...



Ahhh, now I get it! Ok, so I understand where JI comes from. Now the next question: why is the F# of one key not the same as another? Like why would the F# of a D major scale be different than the F# of a B scale? Are they not the same frequency in terms of Hertz?


----------



## EJA (Dec 25, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Ahhh, now I get it! Ok, so I understand where JI comes from. Now the next question: why is the F# of one key not the same as another? Like why would the F# of a D major scale be different than the F# of a B scale? Are they not the same frequency in terms of Hertz?



The F# from, say B, is found through the 3rd harmonic (3 Limit)
Where-as the F# from D is found through the 5th harmonic (5 Limit)

Imagine that F#, the one you know as a fret and a key on the piano, as the color blue.

The F# that comes from the harmonic series of 'B' is a lighter shade of blue than the one you know.
The F# that comes from the harmonic series of 'D' is a darker shade of blue than both the one you know, and the one from B.

In reality, 'F#' doesn't exist. the 3/2 of B and the 5/4 of D are two different notes that are very close in pitch. So close that they'd need to take up a fret spacing that is very close to one another. The difference between the two is called a Comma. There are many different types of Commas in Just Intonation. Equal Temperament usually seeks to avoid the comma by rounding the difference--however the comma CAN be used musically. Michael Harrison's album 'Revelation' demonstrates this well, as does many other works in Just Intonation.


----------



## Hollowway (Dec 26, 2011)

EJA said:


> The F# from, say B, is found through the 3rd harmonic (3 Limit)
> Where-as the F# from D is found through the 5th harmonic (5 Limit)
> 
> Imagine that F#, the one you know as a fret and a key on the piano, as the color blue.
> ...



Good deal, thanks. I had no idea that there could be more than one F#. So I've been thinking about notes as wavelengths of light, so red = 650 nm. But it sounds like, in this analogy, the wavelength that corresponds to red depends on which color you start at. So starting at blue maybe 650 = red. Starting at green maybe red = like 640 or 660. Ugh. Looks like I have a lot of "unlearning" to do. Ugh! I do appreciate all of your answering my questions, though!


----------



## Winspear (Dec 26, 2011)

This thread is awesome. Now I understand why the ratios are named like that - even though I understood kinda what they meant before.

I'm still not sure about this:
"The F# from, say B, is found through the 3rd harmonic (3 Limit)
Where-as the F# from D is found through the 5th harmonic (5 Limit)"

Would it be possible to break this down into a few sums to show why? I can't seem to figure it out. If I knew the relation of the B+D I might be able to do it myself, but something isn't quite ticking.


----------



## EJA (Dec 26, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> This thread is awesome. Now I understand why the ratios are named like that - even though I understood kinda what they meant before.
> 
> I'm still not sure about this:
> "The F# from, say B, is found through the 3rd harmonic (3 Limit)
> ...



Glad to hear! I think a proper thread on Just Intonation/Microtonality in the music theory section here is in order!

One thing to keep in mind with Just Intonation is that to truly understand it all, you need to spend time studying it. 


I like to think of the different prime 'limits' as layers of different musical 'flavors'-or tonalities.

The 'tonality' of an interval based on the 3rd harmonic (or 3 limit) sounds unique to the tonal flavor of the 3rd harmonic.

The tonality of the 5th harmonic is different from the third, and the 7th is different from the 5th, 11 from 7, etc.

It doesn't have so much to do with the relationship of B and D as it does the difference between 3/2 and 5/4-they're doorways to different tonal palettes.

I'm working on a second Just Intonation Resource Video-this thread so far has been helpful in finding the proper things to address, so stay tuned.
----and there will be music! So you can HEAR what this stuff sounds like


----------



## Winspear (Dec 26, 2011)

There's quite a few threads pop up now and then on this subject, some with some very useful posts too. A megathread would be a very good idea.

It does seem like it would take a lot of studying to really understand this stuff! The basics seem to be clicking though which is always good. 

I'll definitely stay tuned! Thanks for taking the type to post here and I look forward to a video. It's definitely a difficult area of music to break into because at the beginning you can never be sure what you're actually listenting to - whether it is good or bad, whether you just don't like the scale it is composed in, etc. There are so many different sounds available.


----------



## TemjinStrife (Dec 26, 2011)

If it sounds good, it is good (to you). If it sounds bad, it is bad (to you).

/thread.

Doesn't sound good to me. But other people dig it.


----------



## ixlramp (Dec 26, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> Now the next question: why is the F# of one key not the same as another? Like why would the F# of a D major scale be different than the F# of a B scale? Are they not the same frequency in terms of Hertz?


See section 3 of this page: Just Intonation Explained for a similar workthrough 

It's because in JI the steps in a scale are unequal in size (size in terms of pitch: semitones or cents). With an EDO the step sizes are identical. 16EDO means '16 equal steps per octave', so 1200 / 16 = 75 cent step size. So in an EDO you can modulate to any key and your scale remains unchanged, this is why 12 tone equal temperament (12EDO) became the standard system of the modern world 250 years ago, we lost the pure harmonies of Just intonation and gained the ability to modulate freely.


----------

