# Kiesel / Carvin Vader Bass! 30" scale available!



## SnowfaLL

Just figured you guys would like to know..



> Jeff Kiesel - "I gave my guys the go ahead to post it on the Kiesel Guitars Carvin Guitars page, so there is more info. Yes the Vader Bass is here 4/5/6 string in a 34" scale standard and check this out optional short 30" scale for them"



- http://www.carvinguitars.com/customshop/vaderbass.php


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## Chokey Chicken

My wallet is currently fearing for its life. 

RIP my finances.


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## ferret




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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Cool to see a short-scale, but no 35''?


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## A-Branger

should it be consider to be a "bass" a 30" scale? is not that more of a ERG?

I mean, would that 30" be tuned to a normal bass octave?. wouldnt that require a massive thick strings to do so?


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## LordCashew

A-Branger said:


> should it be consider to be a "bass" a 30" scale? is not that more of a ERG?
> 
> I mean, would that 30" be tuned to a normal bass octave?. wouldnt that require a massive thick strings to do so?



Not really. I used to play on a 30" Gretsch with regular bass strings sometimes and it just had a cool thumpy, lo-fi tone in E standard. There have actually been a number of 30" basses through the years, particularly in the '60s and '70s if I remember right. It's not a great scale for a piano-like low B, of course.


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## A-Branger

thats what I mean. In here the string tension fan boys tend to even say a 34" is not quite enough for a Low B (or lower). Prob they think Im crazy wanting to get the ibanez 33" for a normal 5 string B-G tuning. But then here they announce a vader bass in 30" and everyone seems to be jumping on happiness


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Short-scale basses are decently popular, but I do find it odd they're using the Vader instead of their P-bass shape.

And yes, 30'' basses do exist. Look up the Fender Musicmaster, Mustang Bass, and Broncho. They were meant as student basses, but people have grown to love them for the tone the scale gives it.


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## JPhoenix19

There was a whole thread on TalkBass about short vs regular/long scale basses. From what I read, most people couldn't tell a difference in tone between the two.

I am VERY excited about the Vader bass! When I move to Tampa I'll be in a position where I will probably travel A LOT- and I'd eventually like to grab both a Vader 7 guitar and a Vader 6-string bass that I can take with me on trips abroad.


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## A-Branger

but what kind of string those short scale basses use?


every time I start understanding the string gauge vs scale vs tuning debate, something like this shows up and mess with my mind lol

specially with the lack or gauges in the bass string territory (for the main brands available on a shop, even worse for a 5 string set)


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## JPhoenix19

A-Branger said:


> but what kind of string those short scale basses use?



Short scale bass strings. The main difference here is where they start to taper the strings for the tuning pegs. Otherwise, they are pretty much the same strings as regular/long scale strings.


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## A-Branger

but having the same gauge for a 30" and a 34" for the same (lets say E ) would that means that the string tension on the short scale bass would be super floppy??


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## JPhoenix19

A-Branger said:


> but having the same gauge for a 30" and a 34" for the same (lets say E ) would that means that the string tension on the short scale bass would be super floppy??



Not necessarily- depends on how you set it up.

I would imagine, though, that those who preferred super-tight tension would want to go up a string gauge or two.


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## rockskate4x

A-Branger said:


> but having the same gauge for a 30" and a 34" for the same (lets say E ) would that means that the string tension on the short scale bass would be super floppy??



and yet... 30ish inch basses have existed pretty much as long as there have been electric bass guitars


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## Alex Kenivel

This was from a thread about guitar scale lengths. I'm sure the same applies here somehow




MaxOfMetal said:


> The nature of the longer scale is going to make the perceived tension feel a little looser. You're just going to keep butting your head with physics.
> ...
> You're in excess of 20lbs, so the tension is there, it just seems floppy.
> ...
> A shorter scale will bump up the relative tension, but it's going to require a bigger string which is going to make it sound less ideal in the given context. It's all circular.
> 
> That's the problem, there are trade offs with everything.


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## Alex Kenivel




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## A-Branger

JPhoenix19 said:


> Not necessarily- depends on how you set it up.
> .


so how different would you (or can you) set it up? I dont get it ....while keeping same string gauge



Alex Kenivel said:


> This was from a thread about guitar scale lengths. I'm sure the same applies here somehow




my understanding was that if I go to a shorter scale I needed a ticker string in order to reproduce same frequency at the same tension (or the other way around, longer scale/thinner string) Hence why the ERGuitars with 25,5"-30" scales, so you can tune down low without having to use super floppy or super tick string gauges. Hence why my LTD eclipse at 24,75" and my ibanez 25,5" both have a set of 9s strings, both tunned in E standard, but my LTD seems floppier 

Like my bass is a 34" scale tune in standard B. I tried to tuned down to drop Ab to play a Periphery song, and the low string became way too floppy (for what Im used to in my standard tuning), so I could either get a ticker string, or get a longer scale bass and use the same string Im using now......... is that correct?


 Im more confused than ever


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## A-Branger

Alex Kenivel said:


>



I must say they dont looks as bad as I though they were gonna look 

the vader looks way better in a bass form than in a guitar imo


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## ferret

Announcement post from CarvinBBS:



Kevio said:


> You asked for it, you got it!
> 
> The new Kiesel Vader Series headless basses feature an aggressive, compact beveled body, which provide modern looks with comfortable playing. Generous forearm and belly cuts further add to the satisfying ergonomics of the bass. A sculpted lower cutaway further accentuates the styling of the instrument, while allowing easy access high on the 24-fret, 34" scale fingerboard, *and a 30" short-scale option is offered on all three models*. Our chambered body option further reduces the already light weight of the instrument. The standard body wood is alder, with an Eastern hard rock maple neck-through design. Dual modulus carbon-fiber rods, along with a 2-way fully adjustable truss rod make the neck remarkably stable, and allows you to adjust the action exactly the way you want it, regardless of your playing style.
> 
> Other features of the Vader Series basses include a standard Hipshot bridge with exclusive Kiesel locking nut/headpiece assembly, allowing the use of standard bass strings. Radiused-top RADHV humbuckers are standard, with passive electronics and a master volume, master tone and pickup blend controls. Radiused single coil pickups and active electronics are also available. Hundreds of Custom Shop options, including body and neck woods, top woods, fingerboard woods, fretwire, inlays and much more allow you to design your new Vader bass exactly the way you want it. Like all Kiesel and Carvin Guitars, the Vader Series is proudly made in the USA at our southern California facility.
> 
> Right here: Kiesel Vader Series USA Custom Shop Headless Basses | CarvinGuitars.com


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## JPhoenix19

Definitely wanting a Vader bass 6 with active electronics. Still deciding whether or not I want to go short scale and frets/fretless.


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## Chokey Chicken

I need a matching one to compliment my Vader 7. If I do end up with one, I may finally snag a 6 string in grabber blue matte. Those prices are super tempting to get foolish with my money.

Edit:short scale basses are great. Even the dirt cheap Ibanez micro has some good sounds and that's shorter than short.


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## elkinz

Man I kinda liked some of the Vader guitars, but I don't know how I feel about the Vader bass :s


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## TylerE

This makes a lot of sense to me. A lot of the reggae bassists love Steinbergers for some reason, and a lot of them like short scale too, specifically to get that super dead sound.


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## Hollowway

I don't like the look of the Vader guitars, but count me among those who think this body style looks better on a bass. I won't be buying one, but this is cool.

The string spacing at the nut looks narrow though. Or am I just imagining that?


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## A-Branger

I think it looks fine, is the spacing at the bridge that looks big


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## olejason

Carvin usually offers 17.6 or 19mm string spacing which is pretty standard


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## marcwormjim

Great. Strandberg is selling two guitars I want, and now Kiesel makes my dream bass. I need a higher-paying job.

My main bass is a Brice 30" 6-string I had gotten from Rondo just to check out. I'd previously owned a 35" no-name ebay 6, and the monster scale and weight was only good for pain. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the Brice and, after some minor fret-leveling, stringing it up with Elixirs, and a Roland GK3-B install, the short scale is a minimal factor in how it sounds. Announcing a short-scale 6-string headless makes my day.

Every improvement the Brice needs is reflected in the Vader design: Headless, chambered, carbon reinforcement, awesome upper-fret access...

...I wish Santa was real.


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## stevexc

I... kinda like this. It's far from perfect but it's still pretty cool.


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## TemjinStrife

String spacing is too wide for what I'd be looking for. Surprisingly nice-looking basses though when in a solid color, especially when compared to Carvin's recent output.


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## iron blast

Guys complaining about string spacing being too wide must be guitarist primarily I'm usually complaining about spacing being tight lol


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## A-Branger

iron blast said:


> Guys complaining about string spacing being too wide must be guitarist primarily I'm usually complaining about spacing being tight lol



not really, Im a bass player. But I grow up using the narrow spacing of ibanez Sr basses and I love it (and I play with my fingers). Spacially when I started to go into playing Dream Theater stuff, it helps a lot

so for me a wide string spacing is not that its "hard" to play, but it does feels uncomfortable to play for some stuff. I can play them easy, but I dont feel like "home"

and hey, I still see and read a lot of guitar players here on the forum complaining about nut width on guitars, so "meh" pretty much same thing


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## russmuller

I think it'd be rad to have a 6-string short scale bass tuned the same as a a 6-string guitar in standard. I don't know what I'd do with it, but it'd be fun to play around on.


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## JPhoenix19

FWIW, the hipshot saddles carvin uses have adjustable string spacing.

It is interesting how people's preferences differ. I'm used to Talkbass where the prevailing preference is wide spacing for slapping/popping.


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## hairychris

If they built these with a Stingray-style HB then I'd have ordered one!

And no, I wouldn't want to Option 50 it.


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## TheEmptyCell

Not a fan of the body shape, but it's amazing they're offering them as short-scale. There are so few SS 5 and 6 string basses. I think a 30" fretless 6 would compliment my ABZ6 quite well.


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## iron blast

I just specced one at $2869 I think I'm going to just save abit more and get custom bass I want fanned frets too


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## GenghisCoyne

iron blast said:


> I just specced one at $2869 I think I'm going to just save abit more and get custom bass I want fanned frets too



maybe tone down the solid ivory fretboard chief


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## TemjinStrife

iron blast said:


> Guys complaining about string spacing being too wide must be guitarist primarily I'm usually complaining about spacing being tight lol



Nah, narrow string spacing is faster, easier, and less fatiguing for both fingerstyle and pickstyle for me. I'm primarily a bass player.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Uh, I just checked the Carvin website, and noticed they ditched their extended scale basses. Am I missing something? They had a section for 35.5'' basses.



TemjinStrife said:


> Nah, narrow string spacing is faster, easier, and less fatiguing for both fingerstyle and pickstyle for me. I'm primarily a bass player.



I agree since I'm a pick player. I can deal with a P bass-style neck on a 4-string, but with 5+, I need narrower necks, ala Ibanez and Schecter. I tried a Squier Deluxe Active 5 string, which had a HUGE neck, and it was a literal pain to play.


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## ferret

Yeah, they discontinued the XB series.


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## JPhoenix19

ferret said:


> Yeah, they discontinued the XB series.



That makes me a sad panda...



I guess they didn't sell very well?


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## LordCashew

JPhoenix19 said:


> I guess they didn't sell very well?



I wouldn't be surprised. I've played a few, and although they were solidly built and played great, somehow the combination of elements didn't usually add up to great sound. I did play one that sounded fantastic, but most of them were pretty meh. No idea why. Also, the shape was pretty bland IMHO, though that's not a big deal to me.

I'd be surprised if they didn't have some kind of new 35" bass in the works though. There's probably a greater demand for that scale than 30" overall.


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## Hollowway

I'd love to see a Dingwall type thing. Idk why, but it seems that Jeff is against fans. Given that they jumped on the headless bandwagon, and that they did 8 strings, and 27" scale 7s, you'd think they'd be all over a fanned model. I would think a 34-37" fan on a bass is "standard" enough that they'd sell well. But who knows.


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## Grand Moff Tim

I hope they _don't_ start offering fans, because then I'll just have another reason to be angry that they don't offer direct sales to Korea.


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## spudmunkey

olejason said:


> Carvin usually offers 17.6 or 19mm string spacing which is pretty standard



The narrower string spacing on 5ers actually isn't available on most of their models anymore. 



JPhoenix19 said:


> FWIW, the hipshot saddles carvin uses have adjustable string spacing.



I don't think that's the case with the headless bridges, though. They seem pretty tightly packed together within the sidewalks of the bridge body.


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## GenghisCoyne

Just because a few people mentioned it, theirs an xb for sale on carvins website. One of you could be the one to shoot the last dodo.


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## cGoEcYk

30" scale is for the girly-man


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## TemjinStrife

Hollowway said:


> I'd love to see a Dingwall type thing. Idk why, but it seems that Jeff is against fans. Given that they jumped on the headless bandwagon, and that they did 8 strings, and 27" scale 7s, you'd think they'd be all over a fanned model. I would think a 34-37" fan on a bass is "standard" enough that they'd sell well. But who knows.



That's because fans are a lot harder and more complex to tool up for and slot.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav

cGoEcYk said:


> 30" scale is for the girly-man



Fun fact - That's actually a 28.625" bass


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## spudmunkey

Hollowway said:


> I would think a 34-37" fan on a bass is "standard" enough that they'd sell well. But who knows.



That's the thing...it isn't. Conklin is 32-35. Dingwall offers 32-35, 34-37, 33.25-37. Ibanez is 34-35.5. Mayones is 32.25-34.25.

Then, even if you decide on a scale range...where's the neutral fret? 7th? 9th? 12th?

Right now, Carvin/Kiesel lines up the fretboards under the CNC, and a circle saw blade runs straight across a bunch of fretboards, cutting fret slots in multiple fretboards at a time. Fanned fretboard need to be done one-at-a-time. I wonder if it's possible that this blade can't rotate on their machines?  

Not arguing either side, just stating some of the complexities. Nothing really beyond what they have had to overcome before, but still...it's a new *way* to make the fretboards, new bridge(s), possibly new inlays, new nut (or at least a new way to shape nuts), and possibly new pickups (maybe this one is more for guitars than basses...).


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## Grand Moff Tim

spudmunkey said:


> That's the thing...it isn't. Conklin is 32-35. Dingwall offers 32-35, 34-37, 33.25-37. Ibanez is 34-35.5. Mayones is 32.25-34.25.



And my ACG is 33-36.


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## ferret

Short scale:


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## A-Branger

from Tesseract instagram

https://www.instagram.com/p/_UMAuWt5eA/?taken-by=tesseractband

Seems they are developing a signature bass

they showing a prototype of a vader but with a MM style humbucker. As he plays with Warwick basses, seems he want to keep the same pup config and get the same sound


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## jonajon91

Out of one of these and a strandberg bass (eventually), which would make the more practical lightweight short scale bass for travelling, gigging with (jazz) and storing in a small place?


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## BouhZik

russmuller said:


> I think it'd be rad to have a 6-string short scale bass tuned the same as a a 6-string guitar in standard. I don't know what I'd do with it, but it'd be fun to play around on.



you want an Ibanez src6.


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## GunnarJames

Short scale 6 string Vader bass, replace hardware with the Hipshot 8 string guitar headless hardware... BOOM. 30" 8 string Vader for those who prefer longer than 27" on their 8 string guitars. 

(You'd lose 4mm at the nut compared to most 8 strings, and the taper of the neck will be slightly off because of the roughly 7mm difference in total string spacing, but hey. )


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## hairychris

A-Branger said:


> from Tesseract instagram
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/_UMAuWt5eA/?taken-by=tesseractband
> 
> Seems they are developing a signature bass
> 
> they showing a prototype of a vader but with a MM style humbucker. As he plays with Warwick basses, seems he want to keep the same pup config and get the same sound



Vader with MM electronics? Good one.


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## Andrenighthound

the due date on my vader 6 short scale bass is tomorrow..getting it overnighted..hopefully its ready by tomorrow but who knows since i changed a few specs a couple of times..


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## A-Branger

what string gauges come with these 30" scale basses?? and how they reach the low notes while keeping enough tension?


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## Andrenighthound

A-Branger said:


> what string gauges come with these 30" scale basses?? and how they reach the low notes while keeping enough tension?



I have no idea and I'm kinda nervous being that I use the 5th string a lot on the bass...anyone else every play a short scale bass with a low B?


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## Andrenighthound




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## A-Branger

hairychris said:


> Vader with MM electronics? Good one.



while surfing in instagram I came across one picture of the prototype. I couldnt link it, as it was from a kiesel builder?? account. so cant find it on my computer.

either way, it looks soo much better with the MM humbucker on it. Also it had a bid cavity with lots of holes so he could swap the position of the pup up and down the body till he was happy with the sound


EDIT: found it

https://www.instagram.com/p/_jTwAFOTN-/?tagged=kieselguitars


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## LordCashew

That looks like the makings of something really cool. 

I really enjoy the tone Mos gets from his Warwick. Something tells me that no matter how good this Vader turns out, it won't be quite the same. This bass will probably be much lighter and the Carvin MM pickup, though perfectly good, hasn't gotten me into that tonal realm.

I'm excited to see what comes of this, though. If Mos is going for something a little different, that's cool. But if there's a new pickup wind or something involved and this bass ends up sounding like his Warwick, I'll want to buy one.


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## Herrick

I know I'm late to the party but I'm really starting to get interested in these. Never played a short scale or a headless bass before but these are very intriguing. 

The only thing I don't like about the body shape are the testicles on the bottom. And I'm wondering how wide the body itself is. Does it feel compact? I'm used Ibanez SRs.


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## Hollowway

I thought when guitars and basses reached the same scale length the world was supposed to end. All the guitar players want longer scale and bass players want shorter scale lol. I do love short scale basses, but my heart is with the re-release of the 40" Quakes.


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## Hollowway

Herrick said:


> The only thing I don't like about the body shape are the testicles on the bottom.



Cannot unsee!


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## Hollowway

A-Branger said:


> so how different would you (or can you) set it up? I dont get it ....while keeping same string gauge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my understanding was that if I go to a shorter scale I needed a ticker string in order to reproduce same frequency at the same tension (or the other way around, longer scale/thinner string) Hence why the ERGuitars with 25,5"-30" scales, so you can tune down low without having to use super floppy or super tick string gauges. Hence why my LTD eclipse at 24,75" and my ibanez 25,5" both have a set of 9s strings, both tunned in E standard, but my LTD seems floppier
> 
> Like my bass is a 34" scale tune in standard B. I tried to tuned down to drop Ab to play a Periphery song, and the low string became way too floppy (for what Im used to in my standard tuning), so I could either get a ticker string, or get a longer scale bass and use the same string Im using now......... is that correct?
> 
> 
> Im more confused than ever



Well, I ran into this with guitars with longer than 28" scales. Longer scales definitely feel floppier because there is so much longer scale length to work with. Consider that a guitar might have 17 lbs of tension, but a bass might have 42 lbs of tension. And yet when you play a bass, the strings STILL need higher action and STILL rattle against the FB. So on my long scale guitars with low notes I'm at WAY higher of a tension than I expected I would be. There is definitely a sweet spot for each tension - or at least a range of sweet spot. Super short scale basses probably won't sound ideal, and super long scale guitars will not. (Treating ERGs based on the pitches they are sounding.)


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## Herrick

Hollowway said:


> Cannot unsee!



Ha ha sorry!


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