# NBD... I got a fretless :)



## Konfyouzd (Feb 14, 2012)

So I was thumbing through Rondo's page the other day and decided I wanted to try a fretless bass so I snagged one of these badboys...








This is just a stock photo from Rondo for the moment. I didn't take pics last night bc I was too busy playing around with this thing--SO MUCH FUN.

I have to say... For fingerstyle I think I actually prefer fretless at the moment even though that may just be the honeymoon period w/ a new instrument talking.

Another good thing about these basses is that the body feels VERY small--almost like a guitar so it's very comfortable to hold if you're guitar player mainly. To be fair, though, my other bass is an Ibanez BTB series and those bodies are pretty large so that may be another reason I feel like the WEB is so small.

I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has one of these or has tried one. Did you end up changing out any of the electronics? I currently actually kind of like how this thing sounds, but I don't typically mod my basses much if at all.

The only problem I'm having with this thing is that something seems to be wrong with the low B.

It seems to be significantly more quiet than the other strings and it also has a very strange tone to it when I finger notes on it. It sounds as though I'm playing the note I'm fretting AND a note one semitone away simultaneously.

Has anyone ever experienced this sort of thing before? Is the string just dead? I tried moving the saddle back a bit as I figured it might be necessary (when I first got it the saddle for the low B was farther ahead (closer to the nut) than the E and A strings which I can't confirm to be incorrect w/o actually checking, but it just seemed wrong.

I moved it back a little bit just to see if it would help the issue and it seemed to reduce the second tone that I hear slightly. Is it common for fretless basses to sound like this if the intonation is off?

Is there anything else I should check? All other strings sound perfectly fine.


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## Ishan (Feb 14, 2012)

The low B saddle should be the furthest away from the nut, the tone you get means the intonation is WAY off. Honestly don't bother with the stock flats, they are terrible.
I suggest you buy a good sets of flats or, better, half round from D'addario.
I play D'addario half round on my Cort A4-FL, best strings I've tried on this one. As for playing fretless, I assure you, with a nicely setup bass you won't ever go back to fretted after a while  I still play fretted as it has its use but fretless feels superior in feel and tone to me.


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## ivancic1al (Feb 14, 2012)

I can't think of how many times I almost ordered one of those, but I always stopped due to the lack of fretlines. I know, I know, "that's cheating", but it seems making the transition from fretted guitar to a huge expanse of blank fingerboard would be difficult. Or, am I just crazy?


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 14, 2012)

I still like fretted basses for certain techniques like slap or tapping, but as far as just holding a bassline for a song (I play jazzier type stuff with the guys I've been jamming with lately) I'm really starting to prefer the fretless even after just a few hours with it.

I'll look further into the intonation when I get home and I will also be taking pics of MY actul bass even though it's the exact same one in the picture above. I was way too fascinated with it to stop playing and take pics last night. 

Now what is the difference between half rounds and flats? Before yesterday I'd never played flats before but they feel basically like a string that's "all core" with no winding to me if I had to describe them. Do the half rounds feel like regular steels w/o effin' up your board?


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## ivancic1al (Feb 14, 2012)

Good to know, I bet it's just like anything, there's an adjustment period after which it probably feels more natural. Thanks for the quick reply.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 14, 2012)

ivancic1al said:


> I can't think of how many times I almost ordered one of those, but I always stopped due to the lack of fretlines. I know, I know, "that's cheating", but it seems making the transition from fretted guitar to a huge expanse of blank fingerboard would be difficult. Or, am I just crazy?


 
I don't think it's cheating. If it's easier for you to play that way it by no means makes it easy in general. 

I actually am kind of glad that this doesn't have fret lines. The only reason I feel that way is that I have been so used to playing boards with no face dots that I really only follow the side dots most of the time anyway whether I'm standing or sitting. Also, the fact that you have to fret on the line rather than the dot would mess with my head a little. I like that I can finger it right where the side markers are and not think too much about it. The only problem is finding the notes that don't have a dot, but you kind of figure it out after a while. It feels to me like the semitones are "roughly" a finger's width apart once you get a certain distance up the neck.

Playing this thing has also made playing a fretted bass feel a lot easier. I almsot didn't have to look at the board at all on my fretted bass after playing the fretless for a while. And there were a few points where I didn't really have to look at the board that much playing the fretless either although my accuracy doesn't remain consistent if I'm looking away for extended periods of time (yet).


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## Necris (Feb 14, 2012)

The problem with your low B will most likely be fixed by a string change. The same thing happened to me.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 14, 2012)

Necris said:


> The problem with your low B will most likely be fixed by a string change. The same thing happened to me.


 
Thank god... I was hoping that was the case bc I got the same thing on my Intrepid when it showed up and I freaked out thinking I was gonna have to send it back after I'd already bonded with it (I really don't use the low B all *that* much so it took me a little while to notice it) 

Question... I've been googling for a bit and a lot of players seem to like using roundwounds on fretless basses. Does this always require epoxy/super glue to pull off w/o effin' up the board? Will the half rounds retain the feel of the round wounds w/o the need for epoxying my board? Truth be told I was kind of digging the way the flats felt. They didn't eat up my fingers as badly as the rounds on my BTB.


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## Necris (Feb 14, 2012)

I've never used half-rounds, I actually used round wounds on my fretless. Roundwounds do cause more wear on the board than flats. I've heard that nickel round wound strings will wear the board somewhat more slowly than stainless steel. 
Over time you may start to notice grooves from the strings starting to form on the board, but it's an easy fix (a bit of sanding generally) and usually only needs to be done every few years, otherwise it's pretty much just a visual effect of the roundwound strings. It's not a huge deal unless it gets to the point where it affects the playability of the bass.


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## Varcolac (Feb 14, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Thank god... I was hoping that was the case bc I got the same thing on my Intrepid when it showed up and I freaked out thinking I was gonna have to send it back after I'd already bonded with it (I really don't use the low B all *that* much so it took me a little while to notice it)
> 
> Question... I've been googling for a bit and a lot of players seem to like using roundwounds on fretless basses. Does this always require epoxy/super glue to pull off w/o effin' up the board? Will the half rounds retain the feel of the round wounds w/o the need for epoxying my board? Truth be told I was kind of digging the way the flats felt. They didn't eat up my fingers as badly as the rounds on my BTB.



I've been playing ProSteels (roundwounds) on a four- and five-string fretless for about eight years at this point. I play the hell out of them, and there's been no epoxying necessary. I'm going to epoxy one bass's board this summer, but only because I want a shiny fingerboard. The damage hasn't affected tone or playability, and it's barely noticeable from a visual standpoint.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 14, 2012)

Jaco played rounds too didn't he?


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## HaMMerHeD (Feb 14, 2012)

Fretless is a lot of fun. Feels very fast. That body is pretty small. I had the 4-string Rogue version of the same body shape.

I think a good set of string would do that bass some good. Also maybe raise the pickups on the bass side. Rounds sound awesome on a fretless, but will wear scratches into the board. Most people don't mind but some do. After some time, even flat wounds will wear lines into a fretless board too, so it's not really avoidable unless you epoxy the board. Rounds will just do it faster.

From a few inches, I can see the scratches on the fingerboard pretty clearly. But from more than a couple of feet, they disappear. It's really not a big deal on dark fingerboard wood.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 14, 2012)

I've been doing a lot of reading about this today and most ppl seem to say the same thing you're saying. It doesn't eat away at the board quick enough to make playability on account of the strings a real issue. The only real issue is an aesthetic one. 

That said I'll probably end up trying all three types of strings eventually. Has anyone here done the epoxy thing? I'm actually kind of curious about that and I think the shiny board looks cool whether it's necessary or not. 

Also, if I were feeling adventurous and wanted to swap out the board with some other material (I've seen some folks use what appears to be glass or metal on some fretless guitars before) what kinds of things would y'all suggest?


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## Necris (Feb 14, 2012)

Epoxying the board of a fretless is pretty easy. It just takes a few days to do a quality job on it. The process I used was epoxy the entire board (using a sponge brush), let it dry for a day or two, sand it level without sanding through, coat it again, repeat as many times as you feel is necessary. Sanding the last coat or two up to 1500 grit should get it nice and glassy.
I decided I didn't want my board to be reflective so it ended up looking like it did before epoxy, just ridiculously smooth and slightly darker. The attack of the notes changes a bit too after an epoxy job, it seems a bit quicker and more "rounded", even for rosewood.

If you're going to consider swapping out the fretboard entirely I wouldn't go with glass or metal as they're difficult to work with. 

If you don't want to go with ebony I've heard great things about bloodwood and pistachio wood as far as natural woods go.
If you want synthetic woods my top recommendation would be Dymond wood. Both Roscoe and Zon use dymond wood on their fretless basses. Roscoe also use it for nut blanks. You can also get in in a variety of colors if you really want your bass to stand out. 
Ebonol sounds kind of dead to me on most basses I've tried it on.
If you want something in between it is possible to buy acrylic stabilized woods. 
Both dymond wood and acrylized woods need no finish put over them. To get a gloss like finish they just need to be sanded up to the highest grit you feel is necessary.


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## skeels (Feb 14, 2012)

Fretless = so much FUN!


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## Varcolac (Feb 15, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Jaco played rounds too didn't he?



That he did. 

However, he apparently practised on a fretted and did his performing on a fretless so the roundwounds wouldn't chew up the fingerboard. I've not had that problem, but maybe his monstrous technique involved lot more pressure on the board than mine.


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## ralphy1976 (Feb 15, 2012)

nice score KJ!!!

loving the smooth (shaving) skin contact??


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## Goatchrist (Feb 15, 2012)

Rondo fretless? good idea! Might try one too!

Congrats!


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## Double A (Feb 15, 2012)

Our bass player just got the same bass and it is pretty awesome. He also had the low b problem and was going to send it back until we decided to try a string from my bass to see if that was it. Turns out those strings it came with were really freaking old.


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## mphsc (Feb 15, 2012)

Fretless = awesomeness.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2012)

@Varcolac - Didn't he also have an epoxied board, though? That's crazy he could practice on a fretted and perform on a fretless, though. I find that kind of difficult to do depending on the song. For instance... I'm in the process of learning Portrait of Tracy and I find that song SO much easier to play on an unlined fretless. The reason being seeing the fretlines messes me up for some reason. That and the fact that when you play a fretted instrument, fretted notes and harmonics are staggered whereas on a fretless you'd play them in pretty much the same spot.

Also, does anyone know of an aftermarket bridge that would help me better intonate the B and E strings? The saddles don't go back quite far enough. I have been looking at them, though and it appears that the bass of the saddle is longer on one side than the other and if I turned the saddles around I could slide them back a bit more, but I'm not sure if this is bad practice.

Would thicker strings also intonate better if I have less intonation space?


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## HaMMerHeD (Feb 17, 2012)

Without getting too silly about the bridge, this guy:

Gold Economy 5-String Bridge | Allparts.com

...would probably get you there. You can easily spend about as much on a 5-string bridge as you did for that whole bass.

Lowering the action might help since you'd be stretching the strings less to get them down to the fingerboard. But with the vibrating path of that big B, you won't be able to get all that low. If you're using nickel strings, you might try stainless, or vice-versa, since the different allows have different behaviors when being bent and stretched.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2012)

Hmm... I'll give lowering the action a shot. The intonation isn't off by a whole helluva lot but it's enough to annoy me. If that doesn't work I'll give that bridge a shot. I was all over allparts.com earlier today looking at bridges but none of the bridges I found that looked like mine had a similar strings spacing.


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## HaMMerHeD (Feb 17, 2012)

One of the advantages of fretless basses is that intonation is often accomplished with fingers and ears more than fret positions. If the note isn't where it should be, you just find where it is, and after a lot of practice and experience with that bass, you'll eventually just go there automatically. Also, if you employ a real vibrato (read: don't bend the strings), you'll mask some of that imprecision.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2012)

Ahh that's kind of true. It was just bothering me a little bit that A - G were right on the money as far as I could press the string right where the fret is and the note will play. The only time it's really noticeable that the notes are off on the B and E string are when you play up past the 12th fret but even then I'm sometimes able to mask that the note isn't 100% intonated. I may just be being a bit pedantic with all this... 

If you can humor me through [at least] one more ?...

If I wanted to be an intonation nazi, would something like this work as well? And would the filling/mounting be a huge undertaking? I imagine I could just lay a strip of masking tape across the edge of the current bridge plate to mark it's position and mark the center of each saddle along the tape to mark the general position of the individual saddles. Then if I set the B and E string bridges slightly farther back than the rest, I should be able to gain the extra little bit of space I need to intonate, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-5-STRI...860?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2c5efa0214

Chances are I'll stick to just fudging it for the time being, but down the road I may want to actually get the intonation 100% dead on just bc I've gotten a little anal about that since trying to learn some Jaco songs where you have to play chords using fretted notes and harmonics played simultaneously. I've found the harmonics can sometimes be just off enough to bug me.


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## HaMMerHeD (Feb 17, 2012)

Those work great. Ibanez uses indie bridges on their prestige basses, and you can see they are slightly offset from each other.

I should clarify: indie bridges work great. As to whether or not those specific bridges are quality items, I can only guess as I have never owned them. They are about 1/4 as much (per ea.) as most indie bridges, so I think it is safe to assume that not much Q/A went into their manufacturing.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2012)

Yea I wouldn't grab that particular set. I understand Hipshot makes them as well. i was more wondering if they'd be a viable option shoud I should to pursue this more in the future. 

Thanks for the help!


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## HaMMerHeD (Feb 17, 2012)

The hipshot triple lock down single-string bridges are nice but they are not flat on the bottom so they require routing. ABM makes more friendly ones.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh! Thanks for the heads up. I'll look into those.


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## Varcolac (Feb 17, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Chances are I'll stick to just fudging it for the time being, but down the road I may want to actually get the intonation 100% dead on just bc I've gotten a little anal about that since trying to learn some Jaco songs where you have to play chords using fretted notes and harmonics played simultaneously. I've found the harmonics can sometimes be just off enough to bug me.



For Portrait of Tracy, I recall he tuned the G and D strings slightly flat (or sharp, I forget...); the harmonics are slightly out from the equal temperament of most guitar and bass tuning.

If you really want to be an intonation nazi, as HaMMerHeD suggested, you can just use your ear and the freedom of the fretless to get the note. Might have to slide and futz around a bit to get it to start with, but keep practising and you'll get the intonation right every time.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 17, 2012)

Yea I can see why he did that. You have to hit a lot of harmonics and fingered notes simultaneously. I've been able to pull it off with them correctly in tune thus far but I haven't learned the whole song just yet.

Also, I'm not bad at finding the notes now... It just kind of bothered me that the note and harmonic at the 12th fret don't match. I've been practicing trying to guess the note in the higher registers and match it agains the open notes and I'm actually more accurate with that than I thought, I was just being anal.


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## HaMMerHeD (Feb 17, 2012)

Lowering string action will help some of that, as it will decrease the degree to which the strings must be stretched in order to reach the fingerboard, which changes tension, which changes vibrating frequency. It may be necessary to adjust the nut as well. Those Rondo basses aren't known for having stellar setups out of the box.


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## leandroab (Feb 18, 2012)

NEEDS MORE PICS!!


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