# Acoustic Simulator or Piezo System?



## Konfyouzd (Apr 19, 2011)

I kind of want an 8 string acoustic/classical guitar, but I really don't want to pay for one right now... I figured I might add a piezo system to my 8, but I'm having some difficulty finding information about acquiring a set of Ghost saddles for an 8 string.

This is a bit discouraging and from what I'm seeing for the 7 string sets, this may get expensive pretty quick. So I was wondering what you guys' opinion is on acoustic/piezo simulators vs actual piezos and if there are any sims you'd recommend. Or would it truly be worth it to just go all out for the real piezos?


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## espman (Apr 19, 2011)

I've used the Boss AC-3, and it was ok, but still pretty far from a piezo. I'd get it just to noodle around with until you can afford the real deal.
As for getting a set of 8 Ghost saddles, e-mail Graphtech and they should be able to hook you up


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## Explorer (Apr 19, 2011)

I use a high-end Boss AD-8, and have no complaints. It doesn't add the high-end noise and hiss of the AC-2 and AC-3. 

I use it before the Korg PX4A, which is designed to accept input from an acoustic guitar, and which then allows sound options like resophonic, 12-string, nylon, dreadnaught, OM body, and so on. I might reverse the order of the PX4A and the AD-8 at times.

With the active EMGs in my eight-strings, I use my guitar for all kinds of acoustic sounds, including upright bass and (with an eBow) members of the bowed instrument family.

Good luck!


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 19, 2011)

^ Would a noise gate possibly alleviate some of the high end hiss you mentioned with some of the lower end models?

Also, I have a Pandora as well, but I believe I have the electric guitar version. It has a piezo sim on it, but it sounds like absolute BOOTY. I may try something like what you've described, though.


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## sell2792 (Apr 19, 2011)

I have an AC-3 and with my Strat it sounds pretty fucking good through most amps I've tried it on. When I play any guitar with actives with it, It'll distort pretty easily though. Lastly, I don't own an acoustic amp, so I ran my Taylor through the pedal into my amp and it made it sound significantly better..


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## The Munk (Apr 19, 2011)

espman said:


> I've used the Boss AC-3, and it was ok, but still pretty far from a piezo. I'd get it just to noodle around with until you can afford the real deal.
> As for getting a set of 8 Ghost saddles, e-mail Graphtech and they should be able to hook you up



Piezo sound better than sims IMO.

What type of bridge does your 8 string have? 

If it's a Hipshot bridge, They make different base plates to allow for the quick connects of the piezos to fit through. If you have an 8 string Hipshot that was a stock install, chances are that you won't have the correct base plate and would need to replace the entire bridge.
If you have a Kahler, you may have no other option than a sim. I'm not sure that anyone makes piezo replacement saddles for any Kahlers.

One other thing to keep in mind, even if you can get the replacement Graphtech saddles, is that the Acoustiphonic board requires all the piezos to run to a summing block that only supports 7 strings. You'll need to run a second board and combine their outputs to your output jack.

If you have a string thru TOM, this will be no different.

All will require modification to your top. Depending on your control cavity size, that may need to be modified as well.

Hope this helps.


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## SirMyghin (Apr 19, 2011)

I have had it recommended if you pair Piezo saddles with a Aphex aural exciter you can get some really close to acoustic tones. This pedal doesn't try to mimic a mic'd acoustic like the fishman aura, but is also much cheaper. 

As far as 8 string and piezo goes, you can do it, you need a bridge to get all the inputs on the preamp though (it supports 7 tops, there are directions on their site). So you can do it with the graph tech gear. Piezo alone might be close enough for you, I'll let you know how my experiences go when I get it.


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## ghostred7 (Apr 19, 2011)

If you put a direct box between the AC-2/AC-3 and the PA, you can get rid of a lot of the hiss associated with it. I played live w/ mine several times and flawless transitions between the two were achieved. The hiss was completely eliminated by having the direct box in the line (my direct box also had a ground lift built in).


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## Mattmc74 (Apr 25, 2011)

I had the Boss acoustic simulator and piezos and I have to say the piezos sounded waaaay better!


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## youshy (Apr 25, 2011)

Maybe try hittin' this guy up: Edge III Piezo Mod

Guys, does AC-2/AC-3/any acoustic simulator works well with low F# or even E?


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 25, 2011)

^ Is that Shotgunn or is it another guy?


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## UnderTheSign (Apr 25, 2011)

^the website is called "shotgunn"mods.net so I guess so! ;P


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 25, 2011)

UnderTheSign said:


> ^the website is called "shotgunn"mods.net so I guess so! ;P


 
Didn't read the URL... I just looked at the title of the link you posted and the pic on the homepage. I saw him do that pic story on here... Actually talked to him about this not too long ago.


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## Reion (Apr 25, 2011)

Anyone have a clip of such a piezo acoustic? I have a piezo in my steel acoustic, ive seen electrics with piezo live, and never in my life has it sounded like the real deal micced, or even come close. Am I missing something?


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 25, 2011)

^ I don't think I understand your questions 100%. Rephrase, please?


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## sell2792 (Apr 27, 2011)

youshy said:


> Maybe try hittin' this guy up: Edge III Piezo Mod
> 
> Guys, does AC-2/AC-3/any acoustic simulator works well with low F# or even E?


 
Sounded good with my Strat when I had it in drop C, and aside from the distortion when you pick hard with EMGs, it sounded good in drop A and B on my Viper.


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## saovi (Apr 27, 2011)

youshy said:


> Maybe try hittin' this guy up: Edge III Piezo Mod
> 
> Guys, does AC-2/AC-3/any acoustic simulator works well with low F# or even E?




That's really cool, thanks for sharing the link.


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## Reion (Apr 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ I don't think I understand your questions 100%. Rephrase, please?



Okay, i'll try again.. I have never heard piezo systems(or acoustic simulators) sound like an acoustic guitar, i have never heard it sound even close to the real thing. I have an acoustic guitar with a piezo system, and not even that one sounds like an acoustic through the piezo system(despite being a real acoustic guitar).

What am I missing? Where are all these piezo systems that actually sound like acoustic guitars? Because I sure have never heard any.

All the acoustic simulator pedals and units, all the piezo pickups used to simulate acoustic, all of them(from my experience) just seems to boost certain frequencies, it never sounds like a real acoustic guitar.


So I'm asking if there are any clips of all these ones that people are using, that I'm not hearing. Either that, or I'm more critical than other guitarists, but I don't think that's very likely-


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 27, 2011)

My 2027x has a piezo system in it, and I tune it with a low G. I barely use the low G string when I'm using the piezos as it just doesn't sound nice. I think when you get that low the tone doesn't really lend itself to an acoustic sound.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 28, 2011)

Reion said:


> Okay, i'll try again.. I have never heard piezo systems(or acoustic simulators) sound like an acoustic guitar, i have never heard it sound even close to the real thing. I have an acoustic guitar with a piezo system, and not even that one sounds like an acoustic through the piezo system(despite being a real acoustic guitar).
> 
> What am I missing? Where are all these piezo systems that actually sound like acoustic guitars? Because I sure have never heard any.
> 
> ...


 
Well the weird thing about piezos, to my understanding, is that they weren't originally meant to sound like an acoustic guitar at all and they only seem to "kind of" sound like one at best. To be honest all the ones I've heard sound more like a nylon string than a steel string and even then you could kind of tell it's not "really" an acoustic guitar. 

As for the acoustic sims, I've never had the pleasure of trying out an acoustic sim worth a damn which is partially why I started the thread.  

Also, what kind of amp are you running your piezos through? I'm not an expert by any means (obviously) but in diagrams I always see ppl running the piezo jack to an acoustic amp (sounds like an oxymoron, but I think you know what I mean ) and then the magnetic pup jack goes to a regular amp.

I've also seen ppl use stereo cables and send it all to one amp. I don't know if this makes a difference in sound quality but maybe someone else here knows?


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 28, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> My 2027x has a piezo system in it, and I tune it with a low G. I barely use the low G string when I'm using the piezos as it just doesn't sound nice. I think when you get that low the tone doesn't really lend itself to an acoustic sound.


 
So a low E would be out of the question... 

I've been hearing stuff like this more and more and it's starting to make me think that since I just bought this 7 string classical, it might be better to go MIDI on my 8 string.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 28, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> So a low E would be out of the question...
> 
> I've been hearing stuff like this more and more and it's starting to make me think that since I just bought this 7 string classical, it might be better to go MIDI on my 8 string.



I just find the piezos pick up too much string noise, because when you have thicker gauges that becomes more obvious. Even if it's properly set up, I think you're going to have a very hard time getting a clean sound our of anything that low.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 28, 2011)

Good to know. Thx


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## Waelstrum (May 1, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> So a low E would be out of the question...
> 
> I've been hearing stuff like this more and more and it's starting to make me think that since I just bought this 7 string classical, it might be better to go MIDI on my 8 string.



But MIDI would need the piezos any way wouldn't it? Or some sort of octaphonic pickup...


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## Variant (May 1, 2011)

Actually, having both... (GR-55, AC-3, piezo systems), I'll say: Both. Blend knob helps as well.  like anything, a lil' of this and a lil' of that works better than one thing turned up to ten.  Shit, throw a layer of Kontakt with a MIDI sampled nylon sting on top of it all mixed it 30% for even more win.


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## Explorer (May 1, 2011)

youshy said:


> Guys, does AC-2/AC-3/any acoustic simulator works well with low F# or even E?



I've used the AD-8 for as low as Ab0.

----

If I'm going for a true acoustic sound using a non-acoustic sound source, there are a few things I have to take care of, body resonance/filtering and reverberation. These options weren't as available in the '80s when I started in this direction, and it has gotten easier over the decades.

To be more specific:

The acoustic simulators add a bit of the high-end, and I believe also add some sort of notch filtering. Like using a exciter, it is easy to completely fuck up and add too much due to not understanding what it's doing. That's one of the reasons studios manage to use such gear successfully, but you hear average musicians talk about the noise they add. 

Another huge mistake made is running an acoustic simulator through an electric guitar amp. Even running a top of the line Ovation though such an amp will just sound like a half-assed electric. If you want to sound acoustic, make sure you're not then imposing an electric guitar signal chain on it. 

I used to simulate acoustic instruments like this: synth or electric -> short reverb with tone/resonance set to the norm for the instrument size desired -> longer room reverb. (Wow, you mean people expect to have room acoustics combined with instrument acoustics? Who would have thought? *laugh*)

Now I use the AD-8 for most things. It adds the noise of a resonant guitar body, or of a violin or cello body. (I'll occasionally use an eBow, running the 8-string signal through first a POG2 for the appropriate pitch range and body filter, and the AD-8 afterwards adds that scratchiness which is present in a bowed instrument from the rosin.)

----

I have nothing against the piezo pickups in my Parker. It starts to sound acoustic.

However, running the Parker through the aforementioned chain sounds *amazing.*

And, of course, I don't have the time or inclination to add piezo bridges to my Intrepid Pros or my FM-408s. Using the pedals for an acoustic simulating modular synth is a great solution which doesn't require me to alter every instrument in order to get a particular sound, in the same way that some people use pedals so they don't need one of every amp. 

Good luck!


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