# It looks like Ibanez and Fredrik are experimenting with a True Temperament 8 string



## LordHar (Jul 20, 2014)




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## Nag (Jul 20, 2014)

am I the only one here who's wondering how they put the frets on ? I can hardly imagine how you cut fret slots for these and I don't see how you would press those in like normal frets. Are they just glued flat on the fretboard or how does it work ?


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## Thaeon (Jul 20, 2014)

I was talking with my buddy who I do project builds with a couple weeks ago about this very thing. We both were thinking hell no. Too much work. I'd rather just do the fanned frets or even work with something like Dan's exponential scale than do something like this.


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## Dominoes282 (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm putting my money on them dropping an Evertune bridge in there. The two seem to be a great pair.


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## Nag (Jul 20, 2014)

Ibanez wouldn't use an evertune. Ibanez would rather try to copy the evertune to have their own version of it.


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## ixlramp (Jul 20, 2014)

There are 2 types of TT fretting, one has subtle fret offsets to get you closer to 12ET, the other is more extreme and is actually 'well temperament' which is a microtonal cross between 12ET and Just Intonation: each tone of 12ET is offset by up to 10 cents to give each key of a scale a slightly different character or 'colour', also to get closer to Just Intonation while still being able to play in every key. Well temperament was used by Bach and Mozart etc. In well temperament D minor really can be the saddest key of all heheh.
This guitar looks to be well temperament to me, i hope so anyway, it means he's moving towards microtonality, i always wondered if Meshuggah would do this, their music is fairly microtonal already.
Evertune is a pointless gimmick in my opinion, the pitch instability of a guitar is what makes it sound so good, why move towards autotune for guitar?


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## Svava (Jul 20, 2014)

Nagash said:


> Ibanez wouldn't use an evertune. Ibanez would rather try to copy the evertune to have their own version of it.



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Please note that the basswood is actually high-grade agathys and the black is to cover the lack of wood quality. Product may make you look like a generic a-musical chugbot.


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## abandonist (Jul 20, 2014)

Personally, I find true temperament dumb. Just play the ....ing guitar and don't worry about tuning so much.


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## rikomaru (Jul 20, 2014)

Nagash said:


> Ibanez wouldn't use an evertune. Ibanez would rather try to copy the evertune to have their own version of it.



HELL YES!!! I'd be all for them continuing that legacy. Lol


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## Nag (Jul 20, 2014)

rikomaru said:


> HELL YES!!! I'd be all for them continuing that legacy. Lol



Ibanez have, in all their history, only produced 2 bridges I find interesting... the LoPro and the Tight-End R. The LoPro is nice but I'd rather just get the Floyd Rose Pro. The Tight-End R though, that one looks awesome, low profile fixed bridge, looks super solid and very comfortable, do want.


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## Svava (Jul 20, 2014)

Nagash said:


> Ibanez have, in all their history, only produced 2 bridges I find interesting... the LoPro and the Tight-End R. The LoPro is nice but I'd rather just get the Floyd Rose Pro. The Tight-End R though, that one looks awesome, low profile fixed bridge, looks super solid and very comfortable, do want.



IDK man

I had one of those on my first 7 that was an ibby.

For whatever reason the whole guitar just felt like it had not much sustain compared to what I would expect from a fixed bridge 7.

Also bending was just miserable. Apart from that though it was a fairly comfortable BRIDGE

Some of the issues may have been the instrument the bridge was stuck to xD


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## noUser01 (Jul 20, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Personally, I find true temperament dumb. Just play the ....ing guitar and don't worry about tuning so much.



I didn't realize being in tune was dumb.


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## Adam Of Angels (Jul 20, 2014)

Svava said:


> NEW IBANEZ WTF 90250 QWMFDZX
> BLACK
> BASSWOOD BODY
> NEW
> ...




Hey..... Leave my friend Ibanez alone 













I love you, though. Even if you don't like my friend Ibanez. I just can't have both of you at the same sleepover 





abandonist said:


> Personally, I find true temperament dumb. Just play the ....ing guitar and don't worry about tuning so much.



When you have OCD and a good ear for intonation, tuning is more important than breathing. However, having OCD has also prevented me from buying a guitar with squiggly, messy looking frets.


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## Nag (Jul 20, 2014)

ConnorGilks said:


> I didn't realize being in tune was dumb.




I sort of agree with abandonist, but I wouldn't have said it like that.

Most people won't hear any difference, especially not in a full song mix. If you have a very trained ear, you might hear the few cents off on a normal fret system, but "most people" is the key here. For most people, the extra precision isn't worth the investment. Everyone knows that the difference _is there_, but what if you don't even hear it ? I watched a bunch of TT videos and it didn't strike me that they were soooo much better.

And as far as I know, TT fret shapes are tuning specific, as in you'll be in perfect tune for a certain tuning, but for any other tuning you won't. Not sure about this, but I understood it that way.

So yeah, if you're an ear freak, TT frets might be your thing. I'm among the "most people" who really hear no difference. I'll stay with my standard frets.


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## lewis (Jul 20, 2014)

Svava said:


> NEW IBANEZ WTF 90250 QWMFDZX
> BLACK
> BASSWOOD BODY
> NEW
> ...





hahahahah genius


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## DancingCloseToU (Jul 20, 2014)

I was interested in the TT stuff Steve Vai was pushing some years ago, but having to stay in a particular tuning really turned me off. Also I could see some frets working with and against big bends in certain areas of the fretboard...

To me, true temperament sounded very piano like, which can be awesome if that's the sound you're going for. However, I think that being a little bit "imperfect" is part of a guitars characteristic sound.

Give me multiscale/fanned frets first.


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## Shawn (Jul 20, 2014)

Pretty interesting. Not a huge fan of the body style but that does look amazing. Very cool!


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## Nour Ayasso (Jul 21, 2014)

ConnorGilks said:


> I didn't realize being in tune was dumb.



Pfff everyone knows there is no such thing as 'tuning' in the djent world


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jul 21, 2014)

hwat....

I'm game. Interest peaked.


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## Explorer (Jul 21, 2014)

That pictured instrument is for a particular scale and tuning. That's obvious from the picture. You can see how the third string is flatter on the first fret, even on the second, flatter on the third fret, even on the fourth fret, and so on. You wouldn't have frets on one string going flatter *and* sharper if it was about getting to equal temperament more perfectly.

So, committed to a particular tuning, string gauge scheme and scale. That's a bold move right out of the gate.

I wonder who already knows what key they've committed to whenever they play that guitar?


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## canuck brian (Jul 21, 2014)

Explorer said:


> I wonder who already knows what key they've committed to whenever they play that guitar?



Probably whatever a majority of Meshuggah's songs are in.


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## TemjinStrife (Jul 21, 2014)

canuck brian said:


> Probably whatever a majority of Meshuggah's songs are in.



F?


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## Dominoes282 (Jul 21, 2014)

TemjinStrife said:


> F?



F except for right in the middle of Shed which is Eb


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## CrazyDean (Jul 22, 2014)

After looking at the "True Temperament" website, I'd say the 3rd string looks correct compared to the 6-strings necks I see online.


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## Explorer (Jul 22, 2014)

^Correct, meaning what?

In other words, the third string is going flatter and sharper at different frets, compared to the first and second strings (or, the first and second strings are going flatter and sharper, and the third string is consistent). 

Correct for what?


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## 77zark77 (Jul 22, 2014)

Better have true temperament in your ears and your fingers
or play unfretted


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## CrazyDean (Jul 22, 2014)

Explorer said:


> ^Correct, meaning what?
> 
> In other words, the third string is going flatter and sharper at different frets, compared to the first and second strings (or, the first and second strings are going flatter and sharper, and the third string is consistent).
> 
> Correct for what?



Correct meaning on par with the fretboards on their website. The frets on their standard fretboard go sharp/flat at a similar rate on the 3rd string.


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## StevenC (Jul 22, 2014)

Ok, I'll bite.

When a thread regarding TT frets comes up on this site, someone always mentions that they don't work in all keys. Can someone explain to me how this works? An E is an E is an E, right?


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## Mike (Jul 22, 2014)

I found this pretty helpful for answering some of my questions:
FAQ | TrueTemperament Frets


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 22, 2014)

StevenC said:


> Ok, I'll bite.
> 
> When a thread regarding TT frets comes up on this site, someone always mentions that they don't work in all keys. Can someone explain to me how this works? An E is an E is an E, right?




I was under the impression that the frets optimized the intonation on every string at every fret (hence why they'e not completely straight) and whether or not they're actually "optimized" would depend in part on string gauge and tuning of each individual string. Hence, if you were to change gauge or tuning, you might still sound in tune to your ears, but not be taking full advantage of the purpose of the frets. I might be a bit off on that though.

I mean hell with straight frets your intonation is probably ever so slightly off at each fret but you can change tunings at will and still sound in tune as far as what the tolerance of the human ear will allow.


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## ixlramp (Jul 22, 2014)

Well Temperament is designed to work in all scales, all keys, because the offsets from 12ET are less than 10 cents. Some keys will be closer to Just Intonation, some further away. Also works with other instruments that are in exact 12ET, but with a little shimmer and chorus of course. You are able to tune the whole guitar up or down but the strings must remain in one relative tuning.
In the past composers would deliberately write a WT piece in a particular key because that key had a particular character that suited the piece.


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## Explorer (Jul 22, 2014)

From the True Temperament website:



> What we mean by TRUE TEMPERAMENT is that our fretting system will give you super-accurate intonation over the whole fingerboard in the temperament it is constructed for.



I don't think they ever actually specify a given temperament, so it might be up to the purchaser. 



ixlramp said:


> Well Temperament is designed to work in all scales, all keys, because the offsets from 12ET are less than 10 cents. Some keys will be closer to Just Intonation, some further away.



The way I understand, say, well temperament, you can play in most major and minor keys and it won't sound out of tune. Flipping that, there are some major and minor keys which will sound out of tune.

If you know exactly what keys you're going to avoid and which you're going to stick to, in addition to your exact tuning and string choice, this is a great choice, if a little expensive. Also, they acknowledge that you won't be in the same temperament as everyone else, but mention that it will add a pleasant dissonance or "shimmer."

I get that the dissonance will be nice because of the price you pay, while the dissonance of equal temperament is terrible. 

I'm again reminded of the guy who used to come into our music store and try to get us to stock his system of interchangeable fretboards. If you're interested in exploring this idea, I think a new guy currently holds the rights to it. It allows you to change temperaments and even tunings on the fly (Persian scale, anyone?)

Mark Rankin's Interchangable Fretboards

If all the music you've been listening to has sounded wrong to your ears, it might be time for you to spend the money and take the plunge!

(I did a quick search of SS.org, and found barely any complaints about temperament in all the discussion about music, but you never know!)


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## CrazyDean (Jul 23, 2014)

I know this has been posted here before, but since different keys require different fret placement for Just Intonation, how come nobody is doing this?


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## Slunk Dragon (Jul 23, 2014)

ixlramp said:


> This guitar looks to be well temperament to me, i hope so anyway, it means he's moving towards microtonality, i always wondered if Meshuggah would do this, their music is fairly microtonal already.



If Meshuggah go towards playing microtonal guitars, I think that'd just be the endgame for djent purists, everywhere.

I'd like to see just what this guitar sounds like, and possibly have some comparisons. Then maybe I might be able to understand whether TT frets are really worth all that money or not.


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## DancingCloseToU (Jul 23, 2014)

CrazyDean said:


> ...how come nobody is doing this?...



Well to be fair HE is doing that... but, I know what you're saying. 

Microtonal is quite different than true, well, or even equal temperament. It strays entirely from the standard 12 Gregorian notes our western ears are familiar with...

If you're into microtonal stuff, and some metal check these guys out.

M.A.N. "logocide" - Youtube

Rob Guz - M.A.N.Guitarist - Youtube

I'm sure I heard about these guys here on SSO somewhere... not particularly my cup o tea, but memorable at least. 

Then there's anything by Nicola Vincentino ... if the heavy isn't your thing
Musica prisca caput
Just click it.


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## ixlramp (Jul 23, 2014)

WT http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html#hist3
JI http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html
Excellent explanation of Well Temperament, history of tuning and also Just Intonation, for anyone interested, includes details on the pitch offsets of WT.


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## ilyti (Jul 23, 2014)

I was interested in this back when Steve Vai was all excited about it. Then he stopped using it and didn't say why. I suspect he played it mostly because they look cool, but turned out to be impractical.


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## abandonist (Jul 23, 2014)

This is just me, but I'd argue that precision of this scale is not only a matter of diminishing returns on a financial scale, but a true challenge for someone to hear an appreciable difference. Especially if you're not hyper-produced sounding (you shouldn't be).


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Jul 23, 2014)

CrazyDean said:


> I know this has been posted here before, but since different keys require different fret placement for Just Intonation, how come nobody is doing this?




I'm just starting to get scared now. It makes sense, but man, how the f*ck could you play that while being drunk??


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## StevenC (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for the answers, guys! I'm not sure I fully understand it yet, but I'll keep researching...

Anyway, I've played loads of properly intonated and tuned guitars where chords don't sound quite in tune, and I have pretty bad ears. I'll have to see about trying a TT guitar through an amp sometime to get an idea. I played Per's Strandberg in March and it played like any other guitar, though it was unplugged in a very noisy convention centre.


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## Explorer (Jul 24, 2014)

Slunk Dragon said:


> II'd like to see just what this guitar sounds like, and possibly have some comparisons. Then maybe I might be able to understand whether TT frets are really worth all that money or not.



This! 

That's a lot of money to lay down. Can they not afford to pay for some comparison videos? And, since it seems a lot of people post stuff on YouTube just for the heck of it, why isn't there more out there?

I'd love to hear a throw-down between someone who love TT and someone who loves equal temperament. It would be like that scene in Crossroads, until the devil with the equal temperament led the TT guy into the keys which sound bad for his instrument....


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## TheOddGoat (Aug 1, 2014)

9 BRAZILLION DOLLARS


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## octatoan (Aug 1, 2014)

YouTube compression kills everything.


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## ceiling_fan (Aug 1, 2014)

Awesoham said:


> YouTube compression kills everything.



I wouldn't think youtube compression would mess with pitch...


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## vansinn (Aug 2, 2014)

Very cool seeing these efforts; we need more awareness on the fact that it's simply mission impossible to fully tune a guitar with evenly distributed steps based on math, identically partitioned per-step/fret/tone.

However, I sometimes feel those creep'ishlish wringled frets is a Bit like overdoing it 
Seems to me a mean-square approach should be enough, haha.
It'll be interesting to see what comes out of these new efforts


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## Gothic Headhunter (Aug 3, 2014)

I'd rather have a guitar that looked professional with only a few notes being a few cents off than a guitar that has everything in tune but looks like shit.


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## Jzbass25 (Aug 3, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Personally, I find true temperament dumb. Just play the ....ing guitar and don't worry about tuning so much.



I grew up with a piano tuner as a father, both of us have perfect and relative pitch, it physically pains me to hear notes a few cents off and that isn't hyperbole. I have to force myself to note retune constantly (especially on the g string).

Also I don't think it looks bad, just different.


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## Grindspine (Aug 3, 2014)

77zark77 said:


> Better have true temperament in your ears and your fingers
> or play unfretted


 
If they (Meshuggah) tune any lower or use any thicker strings, fretless bass would be an option.

On that note, I actually played a great NS fretless bass a few days ago... It was actually quite the amazing instrument!


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## Spacestationfive (Aug 3, 2014)

This kind of system would be best used on an acoustic guitar in my opinion, they tend to be a bit less tight with intonation than their highly adjustable electric counterparts. Yes, I have heard the need for this on electric while recording but live usually I've ended up using a "compromise" tuning that works out pretty nicely.


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## DancingCloseToU (Aug 3, 2014)

TheOddGoat said:


> 9 BRAZILLION DOLLARS



9 Brazilian dollars (Real) only equals $3.97 USD...


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## LordHar (Aug 4, 2014)




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## canuck brian (Aug 5, 2014)

Neat bridge system.


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## Neilzord (Aug 6, 2014)

that bridge system is ace! Micro tuning on a fixed bridge - Win.


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## Cowboyfromhell (Aug 6, 2014)

Interesting bridge


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## jwade (Aug 6, 2014)

Holy shit, that bridge is amazing!


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## Ocara-Jacob (Aug 6, 2014)

I want that bridge on all of my guitars.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 7, 2014)

that bridge is something new? I thought that was pretty old hat for 6 + 7 strings...


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## HurrDurr (Aug 7, 2014)

He probably requested that bridge system specifically since it's similar in function to the FX locking Edges they've had before, but seeing as those have had to be discontinued... That or he just wanted an overall classic look to the instrument. I know they seem to care a lot about tuning stability and intonation, seeing as that's always been their praise to Ibanez about their eight strings having had to deal with those horrific customs they had made prior to the initial LACS 8's they received from Ibanez thereafter.


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## Andromalia (Aug 7, 2014)

Svava said:


> NEW IBANEZ WTF 90250 QWMFDZX
> BLACK
> BASSWOOD BODY
> NEW
> ...





8500 with an autograph.


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## Corrosion (Aug 7, 2014)

Wants that bridge. The guitar tho... I could do without it.


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## StevenC (Aug 7, 2014)

HurrDurr said:


> He probably requested that bridge system specifically since it's similar in function to the FX locking Edges they've had before, but seeing as those have had to be discontinued... That or he just wanted an overall classic look to the instrument. I know they seem to care a lot about tuning stability and intonation, seeing as that's always been their praise to Ibanez about their eight strings having had to deal with those horrific customs they had made prior to the initial LACS 8's they received from Ibanez thereafter.



The bridge is almost definitely because he wants a classic look. It'll match all of his old Ibanezes and it'll have the tuning stability, just like his recent 6 string Stoneman. That was pretty much the whole point of the Stoneman; his own shape that'll will sit well with his collection of old Ibanezes.

Also, I don't think the Edge IIIFX has been discontinued.


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## jwade (Aug 8, 2014)

8 string tuneomatics are a rarity, and even more rare are 8 string tuneomatic tailpieces. Most companies simply go with a string-through-body setup. The fact that Ibanez has 8 string TOMs in general is exciting on its own. The fact that they've got the fine tuners on the tailpiece is ridiculous.

I have absolutely no interest in the TT stuff, but that bridge...oh man.


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## G-Varbanov (Aug 8, 2014)

I want that bridge in my life!


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## walleye (Aug 10, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Personally, I find true temperament dumb. Just play the ....ing guitar and don't worry about tuning so much.



for studio work


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## Alex Kenivel (Aug 10, 2014)

*DAT BRIDGE*​ 

​


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## AVH (Aug 13, 2014)

Those bridges were part of an original run of 21 pcs custom ordered by Jens and made by ABM in Germany, mostly in black and a few in chrome, with "T8M JK Edition by ABM" engraved on the body. I had 3 in black and dealt 2 to Darren at Decibel, and have one left which I'll hang onto. The TP8 tailpieces were another custom run made at a later date. The ones used on this guitar were from these runs and sent down to LACS for installation. 

Hope that clears that up for you, and no sorry there's no more available as far as I'm aware of.


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