# What are the most overhyped guitars?



## nightlight (Aug 6, 2021)

In my experience, one of the most overhyped has got to be the Strandberg Bodens. Don't get me wrong, I have an eight string from Sweden and I like it, but the prices have just skyrocketed and I don't think I would want to pay current market rates for one. 

I don't have any experience with Aristides, but I often see a lot of people who buy them, post about them and then sell them in short order. I want to try one for sure, but I often think that it is one of those brands that is being overhyped on a lot of forums just because of the way I see them being flipped. I mean, I could have sworn I just saw a thread about a black headless one being touted on some forum, and it's already on sale on Reverb.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Aug 6, 2021)

Gibsons
Blackmachines
The never ending hordes of super strats
Hell, take your pick. There are a LOT of overhyped guitars.


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## eggy in a bready (Aug 6, 2021)

Subzero Rogue. felt like cheap shit.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 6, 2021)

Blackmachines got a lot of hype a few years ago, but to be honest the hype there seems to have died down a lot. My own experience with them started nearly 20 years ago when I tried one and thought it was good but not sensational. I tried one of the headless ones a couple of years ago, pre-Covid and it was fantastic... maybe now the hype has died down, it’s actually deserved 

Daemoness got a lot of hype too but the waiting list became the focus of the discussions rather than the guitars.

Normal guitars that got a lot of hype included the EBMM Petrucci, one of the aforementioned legion of hyped up superstrats. And also the Jackson Misha Mansoor guitar which was a huge topic of conversation when it came out but hardly gets a mention anymore...


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## Pat (Aug 6, 2021)

Not a particular brand, but I don't understand people who feel they _need _certain things otherwise they can't play the guitar - scale length, fanned frets, evertunes etc. Most of the best songs ever written, in all genres, were played on guitars with more 'traditional' specs.


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## TheBlackBard (Aug 6, 2021)

Headless. God they look ugly as fuck. Fanned fret too. How the hell do you fret a barre chord on the first fret?


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## BenSolace (Aug 6, 2021)

nightlight said:


> I don't have any experience with Aristides, but I often see a lot of people who buy them, post about them and then sell them in short order. I want to try one for sure, but I often think that it is one of those brands that is being overhyped on a lot of forums just because of the way I see them being flipped. I mean, I could have sworn I just saw a thread about a black headless one being touted on some forum, and it's already on sale on Reverb.


Perhaps when the honeymoon period wears off they realise that they spent crazy money on basically a superstrat made from not wood. I've never tried one but I can't see myself spending over £2k on a guitar, and in that case it would need to be 100% to my specs.

Just spec'd one out for fun, would cost me over €4500 estimated...

Possibly the same with BlackMachine - when people realise they can get several thousands for them they probably realise that they can buy several guitars (or amps) in its place. Or, like, take a holiday or buy a car


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 6, 2021)

BenSolace said:


> Perhaps when the honeymoon period wears off they realise that they spent crazy money on basically a superstrat made from not wood. I've never tried one but I can't see myself spending over £2k on a guitar, and in that case it would need to be 100% to my specs.
> 
> Just spec'd one out for fun, would cost me over €4500 estimated...
> 
> Possibly the same with BlackMachine - when people realise they can get several thousands for them they probably realise that they can buy several guitars (or amps) in its place. Or, like, take a holiday or buy a car



I have to say that I’d rather have a guitar that costs £4500 than a holiday that costs £4500 and is over in 2 weeks. 

That said I’m lucky enough to have travelled extensively on business when I was younger so I have literally zero wanderlust these days...

My GAS has never diminished though...


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 6, 2021)

Cars are a terrible investment. Drive it out of a dealer and you've already lost 10%, every year paying tax, fuel, NCT, service etc while it continuously depreciates. Buy a guitar and you just need to occasionally change strings, annual setup and if you look after it then it won't lose much value. I've sold most of my customs for what I originally paid or 10-20% less.

The Blackmachine hype got as far as €20,000+ a few years ago which was insane. I'm not sure how much they are selling for now but Doug charges about 5 figures now for most builds. I don't see any on Reverb but last time I checked they dropped considerably in value. Most people got one, tried one or moved io so there isn't the crazy demand for them anymore. 



Pat said:


> Not a particular brand, but I don't understand people who feel they _need _certain things otherwise they can't play the guitar - scale length, fanned frets, evertunes etc. Most of the best songs ever written, in all genres, were played on guitars with more 'traditional' specs.



By many musicians who couldn't get out of bed without a cocktail of drugs and couldn't get back into it without another cocktail of alcohol and sleeping pills. I think wanting an extra few inches for clarity on your guitar should be a bit easier to understand in comparison. Traditional specs were all that was needed back then until downtuning and better production brought up many of the flaws an electric guitar is.


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## possumkiller (Aug 6, 2021)

Les Pauls.

Heavy af, thick, blocky, fat, cumbersome, fatass neck, wide nut, shit tuners, shit jack plate. A scale so short that you can't tune down below B. Shitty headstock design. They literally just said, "let's just scale down an archtop body slightly, make it solid, and call it a fucking day" (Ted McCarty, 1952).


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## USMarine75 (Aug 6, 2021)

I water my beard with the salty tears of Gibson haters.

So like enough already I'm tripping over this shit.


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## possumkiller (Aug 6, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> I water my beard with the salty tears of Gibson haters.
> 
> So like enough already I'm tripping over this shit.


Exactly! Les Pauls are for big burly people with Duck Dynasty beards who use a logging chain for a strap and have gigantic hands that can only manage to make pinch harmonics as they grasp at the strings.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 6, 2021)

Anything that you are stoked to try and turns out less than amazing would be over-hyped.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 6, 2021)

Fuck'n guitars in general. It's like, chill out, it's just a plank with some strings.


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## Ralyks (Aug 6, 2021)

I knew Strandberg was going to get mentioned, just didn’t think post one. I’ve loved every Strandberg I’ve had, past our present, but to each their own.

Anyway, not big on Gibson or Schecter. I can’t explain Schecter, but Gibson just feels like a the fat end of a baseball bat in my hands rather than a guitar.


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## nightlight (Aug 6, 2021)

Ralyks said:


> I knew Strandberg was going to get mentioned, just didn’t think post one. I’ve loved every Strandberg I’ve had, past our present, but to each their own.
> 
> Anyway, not big on Gibson or Schecter. I can’t explain Schecter, but Gibson just feels like a the fat end of a baseball bat in my hands rather than a guitar.



My issue is the price. The Indo Bergs are in the same price territory as a lot of other great guitars. I keep reading about people complaining of poor QC on $2k plus guitars. I bought my Swedish custom shop for a bit less than some of the Indonesian ones new. And it's actually appreciated in value significantly.


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## nightlight (Aug 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Headless. God they look ugly as fuck. Fanned fret too. How the hell do you fret a barre chord on the first fret?



You get over it fast. It's just like a regular guitar is fretted.


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## NoodleFace (Aug 6, 2021)

I have a Gibson LP Custom and I'll say Gibson is overpriced and overhyped. If you get a good one, they're incredible - but for $4k... I'd rather buy a custom shop guitar or two. 

While I don't like headless, I've heard from a lot of people that they've helped with backpain so you can't really fault them for that. I do think they're ugly as fuck though.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 6, 2021)

strandberg is definitely overrated. I had a custom shop and 2 OS8s and all of them were not worth the price point. My Knightros, Kiesels, Aristides and old Overload all kick the shit out of them in terms of fit/finish and general playability. The limited edition quilt topped one I had was pathetically figured, and factory setup was absolute trash. It was a 600$ guitar masquerading as a 2000$ one.

Aristides totally deserve all the hype, as they have been extremely consistent with their builds in terms of fit/finish/initial setup. I've never seen anyone really complain about Aristides other than some people who feel that they're too neutral sounding. I actually love that because they're a blank slate and the pickups can fully shine through. 
I own 2 and they're really fantastic guitars. 

Most of the aristides you see on reverb are bought by a small group of insane people in the arium addicts group like murdock13, or serial traders/flippers like adamofangels. There are tons of other guitars that never pop up on reverb or facebook for sale.


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## stinkoman (Aug 6, 2021)

Pre-CBS Fenders. I'm a huge surf music guy, so strats and Jazzmasters are my thing and had the chance to play quite a few. There is a cool factor to them, but never played any better or sound better than any other quality Fender


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## Werecow (Aug 6, 2021)

Any signature guitar. I don't understand the sometimes huge threads you see on any forum when one is released, versus any almost exactly the same standard model.
I mean, buy it if you actually like the guitar, but i don't understand the clamouring for a guitar just because another human being has one.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 6, 2021)

NoodleFace said:


> I have a Gibson LP Custom and I'll say Gibson is overpriced and overhyped. If you get a good one, they're incredible - but for $4k... I'd rather buy a custom shop guitar or two.
> 
> While I don't like headless, I've heard from a lot of people that they've helped with backpain so you can't really fault them for that. I do think they're ugly as fuck though.



A Gibson Custom _was_ made in a custom shop. Their Custom Shop Customs, Made to Measure, and Murphy Lab guitars are $5-10k. The same range as most other customized custom shop guitars.

When you say "custom shop" guitar Im assuming what you really mean is a customized guitar. I get why. But that doesn't make it any better than a non customized one. Not only that but the majority of a time when you customize a guitar to your personal tastes it hurts resale time and money recouped. YMMV

tl;dr oldest zombie meme around these parts... "Gibson is overpriced".


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## CanserDYI (Aug 6, 2021)

Yeah I can easily say Gibson is the most overhyped shit brand I've ever given money to. Seriously fuck that boomer stuck in the middle century, charge an arm and a leg for a product that gets smoked by an import version of itself ...


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## USMarine75 (Aug 6, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Yeah I can easily say Gibson is the most overhyped shit brand I've ever given money to. Seriously fuck that boomer stuck in the middle century, charge an arm and a leg for a product that gets smoked by an import version of itself ...


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## Ralyks (Aug 6, 2021)

Ok, as far as Strandberg goes, I’ll give you the price point. Especially since I’m considering getting the Ibanez Quest 7 string model when they drop to try out.


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## budda (Aug 6, 2021)

Law of diminishing returns applies.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 6, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> tl;dr oldest zombie meme around these parts... "Gibson is overpriced".



Wait a minute... I thought “Just buy a used Prestige” was the oldest SSO meme, let me check the archives....


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 6, 2021)

Any Ibanez with a Wizard neck. Shit that neck profile is overrated to me.  Then again, I prefer the Gibson '50s profile and pre-SLS Schecter "baseball bats" over a Wizard.


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## BusinessMan (Aug 6, 2021)

90% of ibanez and headless guitars in general


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## Adieu (Aug 6, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Exactly! Les Pauls are for big burly people with Duck Dynasty beards who use a logging chain for a strap and have gigantic hands that can only manage to make pinch harmonics as they grasp at the strings.



So... that's an enthusiastic endorsement then?


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## littlebadboy (Aug 6, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Aristides totally deserve all the hype, as they have been extremely consistent with their builds in terms of fit/finish/initial setup. I've never seen anyone really complain about Aristides other than some people who feel that they're too neutral sounding. I actually love that because they're a blank slate and the pickups can fully shine through.
> I own 2 and they're really fantastic guitars.



2 of 'em?!! I could barely afford 1/4 of one Aristides guitar! I envy! Lucky you!

I do not have anything to share about an overhyped guitar as I have not experienced owning an expensive guitar. The most significant ownership I have is my PRS S2 Standard 22 that I even got used to fit my frail budget. It was worth what I paid for - to me. It was also worth what I spent for the mods to what it is now. For me, I think it is the best way to go to get to the guitar you really want. Get the best base guitar you could get, and then mod it to your liking.

However, I appreciate this guitar because it streamlines my dream guitars.

I want to own an Aristides H/06 someday, somehow.


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## Adieu (Aug 6, 2021)

NoodleFace said:


> While I don't like headless, I've heard from a lot of people that they've helped with backpain so you can't really fault them for that. I do think they're ugly as fuck though.



Headless makes sense... for very specific needs.

If you constantly travel, ride a motorcycle, live out of your truck, or are otherwise dimensionally challenged, it's probably the best thing since sliced bread


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## Metropolis (Aug 6, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Any Ibanez with a Wizard neck. Shit that neck profile is overrated to me.  Then again, I prefer the Gibson '50s profile and pre-SLS Schecter "baseball bats" over a Wizard.



Someone prefers their neck sticc, others thicc...


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## Esp Griffyn (Aug 6, 2021)

Gibson Les Paul, honorable mentions go to the other crap guitars that Gibson came out with around the same time.

Considering the LP was designed in the same era as the Stratocaster, the LP looked old-fashioned from the moment it was born. The Strat was like a guitar from the future, the LP was firmly stuck in the past.


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## Matt08642 (Aug 6, 2021)

Fender and Gibson are the big (obvious) two for me. I'll never forget the first time I played a proper $5000 Les Paul in the "high end" room of a shop where I used to live, and while it was at least somewhat set up (decent action, strings that were still usable and not just guitar store rust), I was left thinking "This is it? This is the guitar that people strive their whole careers to play?"

Like someone above me said, it's very mid-century clunk. 

As for Fender, I was prepared to be blown away coming from a Squier strat and I'd say if you put the same pickups in my Squier it would hold it's own compared to most Fenders I've ever played. There's no apparent jump in quality when I use Fender guitars, they just don't feel like $2100. Same with their basses when I got in to bass. I wanted a Jazz bass after watching hours of Jaco playing, went to the store to play one, and walked out with an Ibanez Soundgear.


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## wheresthefbomb (Aug 6, 2021)

Electric, but acoustic are a close second.


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## coreysMonster (Aug 6, 2021)

Fishmans. They're good, but they're just... good. Everybody and their mother has a signature Fishman set now, and they're all just good. They're just pickups, and the whole "2 voices thing" is fun for like 5 minutes and then you set it up to the tone you want and that's it, just like with every other guitar. They're solid pickups and decently priced but I still feel they have been hyped up beyond belief because of the dual voices thing that has very limited practical application.

EDIT: I realize the OP was asking for guitars but everybody's already said Gibson lmao so I'm throwing guitar accessories into the mix


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## USMarine75 (Aug 6, 2021)

Underhyped around these parts...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 6, 2021)

coreysMonster said:


> Fishmans. They're good, but they're just... good. Everybody and their mother has a signature Fishman set now, and they're all just good. They're just pickups, and the whole "2 voices thing" is fun for like 5 minutes and then you set it up to the tone you want and that's it, just like with every other guitar. They're solid pickups and decently priced but I still feel they have been hyped up beyond belief because of the dual voices thing that has very limited practical application.
> 
> EDIT: I realize the OP was asking for guitars but everybody's already said Gibson lmao so I'm throwing guitar accessories into the mix



I can agree with this. I had 2 guitars I liked them in (Moderns in an Aria V, Classics in a Tremonti SE) so I was riding high off them for a year. Then I got bored of one of the guitars (the Tremonti) because I felt like the low end was a bit too big at times. The V still sounded great, though. Tried other Fluences in other guitars and yeah, just a whole lotta meh.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Aug 6, 2021)

Ok controversial opinion, but Prestige Ibanez stuff. I'm not an Ibby fan at all, but I did own a prestige for a while and it was pretty good but just boring. I loved the neck and trem but it just sounded kinda flat and uninteresting without any features to make it really versatile or fun. I've played others since then and they're just really good super strats but that's it. Nothing that really makes me want one. 

I also don't really like non-90s/80s Jacksons. Modern ones are also boring and don't have the cool factor of all the unique parts the custom shop used to use. Also, the price any more????? Nope.


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## Thrashman (Aug 6, 2021)

Strandbergs. Awful QC and mediocre quality. In no way or form is the design worth paying 2-3x what the quality actually reflects. 

Oh and fundamental design flaws making them insanely prone to wolf tones and dead spots.


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## narad (Aug 6, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Underhyped around these parts...
> 
> View attachment 96399
> View attachment 96400



An elegant instrument for a more civilized age


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Aug 6, 2021)

Werecow said:


> Any signature guitar. I don't understand the sometimes huge threads you see on any forum when one is released, versus any almost exactly the same standard model.
> I mean, buy it if you actually like the guitar, but i don't understand the clamouring for a guitar just because another human being has one.



Especially ESP sigs. I love ESP as a company but goddamn if they don't release an artist signature and all it is, is the production line shit in a different color or something stupid.

At least ESP America, that is. ESP Japan is off the damn chain.


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## Vyn (Aug 6, 2021)

coreysMonster said:


> Fishmans. They're good, but they're just... good. Everybody and their mother has a signature Fishman set now, and they're all just good. They're just pickups, and the whole "2 voices thing" is fun for like 5 minutes and then you set it up to the tone you want and that's it, just like with every other guitar. They're solid pickups and decently priced but I still feel they have been hyped up beyond belief because of the dual voices thing that has very limited practical application.
> 
> EDIT: I realize the OP was asking for guitars but everybody's already said Gibson lmao so I'm throwing guitar accessories into the mix



This is an interesting one to bring up. The other guitarist in our band has Moderns in his E-II and we were taking turns using it for tracking. He comes from an EMG/active background and I come from a passive background. I couldn't get the 'active' voice to work however he couldn't get the 'passive' voice to work either. It was amusing because the whole point of Fishmans is to have the best of both worlds however neither of us could actually play in the other world so there's no point to them


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## gunch (Aug 6, 2021)

Legators and Chapmans 
There's been a thread about it but like other companies biting Suhr 

And I don't think anyone who owns a Sterling actually likes it


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## The Mirror (Aug 6, 2021)

Werecow said:


> Any signature guitar. I don't understand the sometimes huge threads you see on any forum when one is released, versus any almost exactly the same standard model.
> I mean, buy it if you actually like the guitar, but i don't understand the clamouring for a guitar just because another human being has one.



That depends I'd say. if it is just a cashgrab with the name of the artist (and a higher price tag) put on it but the guitar being almost the same as others then it is stupid.

If it actually has specs or features that differ from the standards of the company I absolutely understand that.

I always wanted a PRS with a flat fretboard radius, a longer scale and modern sounding high output passives as I like the general design of PRS but mostly play metal in Open-C tuning and come from classical guitar, originally. 

The Holcomb does exactly that and I never heard of Mark before as I never listened to Periphery. 

It is like the dude built my own custom guitar that I can grab now for a totally decent price instead of paying shitloads for ordering a Private Stock.


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## mmr007 (Aug 6, 2021)

I am not entirely sure I have witnessed any any overhyped reaction to Gibson. They have their passionate fans and certainly their detractors and you can complain about price but welcome to MADE IN AMERICA....as in more fucking expensive labor than Indonesia. You can't compare quality and price when one guitar is made where labor is like 20 cents to the dollar. Also, Gibson has a built in premium because of the fact they increase in value like almost no other guitar.

But there is not an over-reaction to the brand because they've been pumping out the same basic stuff for 60+ years and the only time anyone talks about them is when they fuck up and make a stupid authentic video or reinvent the tuner.

If you wanna talk overhyped then let's talk PRS...not an indictment of quality but the John Mayer sigs and other special tops and caps and what not make it the most overhyped brand in my book (I didn't say bad...over hyped)

Oh and fuck headless guitars


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## eggy in a bready (Aug 6, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> You can't compare quality and price when one guitar is made where labor is like 20 cents to the dollar.


i've played MII guitars that blow recent Gibsons out of the water in every way possible. y'all need to look past the stigma of imports and realize that MIA means very little in the way of guitars these days.


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## mmr007 (Aug 6, 2021)

I'm not saying imports can't be better. Never implied that. Almost all my guitars are made in Korea, Japan or Mexico and they fucking rule....but labor is cheaper there. It's a fact. Indonesia waaaay cheaper still. So quality can be the same or better than a Gibson...no reason it can't but then we can't bitch that Gibsons are overpriced. They are not. They are priced for the cost of labor that made them. You want Gibson quality at a lower price...get an epiphone like me.


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## eggy in a bready (Aug 7, 2021)

ok. do you think that american labor is inherently more valuable than overseas labor?

because if i can get an import that's just as good (if not better) than a modern day Gibson for a fraction of the price, then yes, i can absolutely say that Gibson guitars are overhyped.

just because you pay more for the MIA label does not mean that the cost is justified.


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## Addie5150 (Aug 7, 2021)

The overpriced jacksons 
Kiesel


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## mmr007 (Aug 7, 2021)

American specifically? Because this is not USA versus overseas argument only. If you told someone they have a blind choice between an LTD made in Japan, one made in Korea, one made in Indonesia or one made in Vietnam....all things being equal, people would choose the Japanese made one probably without even test driving the guitar.

I feel that I have overseas guitars that are as good or better than a Gibson. I stated elsewhere on this site I have an early 2000 epiphone explorer that is just as good as my old 1984 gibson explorer I had..... but the Gibson is worth 10X as much. It started more expensive (adjusting for inflation based on when each guitar was bought) and it increased in value because Gibson has a viable market but they are not overhyped. The only "hype" I saw was for the Adam Jones sig and that's because Tool fans are unhinged in general not Gibson fans.

But back to cost...it IS justified in the eyes of the purchaser. Some people pay a premium at Trader Joe's for free range organic chicken...I could care less if my chickens were tortured and feed a steady diet of M&M before they made it to the deep fryer...still tastes good to me.

Gibsons are not *overpriced*...I imagine their profit margins are comparable to other manufacturers.... but their labor costs are high but that high input has paid dividends in the long run because their perceived value makes them a sought after commodity


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## eggy in a bready (Aug 7, 2021)

ignoring the blatant assumptions and downright weird things you said in that post...

the Gibson name as a commodity still, strangely, holds a lot of value in people's eyes. why? who knows. decades of marketing? boomer nostalgia? it doesn't seem to mean much in terms of tangible product. when you're paying for a new Gibby, you're paying for the name and not necessarily a quality product. some people, like myself, would think you're a fucking fool to pay the premium for a new Gibson in 2021, considering the import alternative is on, and above, par.

that being said, i've played some new Gibby's that actually rock. still, $5k? fuck no.


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## High Plains Drifter (Aug 7, 2021)

Taylor


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## Wucan (Aug 7, 2021)

Werecow said:


> Any signature guitar. I don't understand the sometimes huge threads you see on any forum when one is released, versus any almost exactly the same standard model.
> I mean, buy it if you actually like the guitar, but i don't understand the clamouring for a guitar just because another human being has one.


I feel the opposite way - I love signature guitars because they're a way for manufacturers to deviate from standard specs while getting sales to support the decision. For instance, JP's were a real life saver for me - the necks are very thin, but they also aren't shaped flat like nearly every other shredder. I also dig into the guitar body a lot, and the deeper scoop only JP's have is super comfortable for me.

I also owned a Wes Hauch signature guitar which was sweet because of the very thin but still comfortable neck, while having a telecaster body with comfort cuts. Unfortunately the "signature' aspect got in the way because the strings were spaced extra wide, and it was too much of a pain to switch between the Wes Hauch and 6-strings


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## Hoss632 (Aug 7, 2021)

Gibson's. Although I do like the SG's over all they are over priced and really over hyped to me.


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## works0fheart (Aug 7, 2021)

Ibanez and Gibson for me. Never picked one up that's done anything for me. Gibson moreso. Super thick necks, too heavy, weird balance. Not a fan at all. At least with Ibanez they have a few models I think are decent, but Gibson literally feels like the quality doesn't increase much with the price point from model to model.

That's pretty much it though. Almost every other brand I've found something that I like at some point. I used to dislike BC Rich but I've found some great stuff from them over the years.


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## j3ps3 (Aug 7, 2021)

Thrashman said:


> Oh and fundamental design flaws making them insanely prone to wolf tones and dead spots.


Such as? Genuinely interested


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## narad (Aug 7, 2021)

Some very loud, very bad takes on Gibson in this thread. Would you pick up a banjo and be like... "huh, heavy, 4 strings, high action. Used prestige was better in all respects"? 

Wake me up when an import is better than a Gibson _at things people use Gibsons for_. Like some import LP. Because epiphone isn't comparable. Hell, Navigator isn't as good. Even many PRS or Huber and instruments that are made phenomenally well are often not better at achieving those sounds.


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## BornToLooze (Aug 7, 2021)

narad said:


> Some very loud, very bad takes on Gibson in this thread. Would you pick up a banjo and be like... "huh, heavy, 4 strings, high action. Used prestige was better in all respects"?
> 
> Wake me up when an import is better than a Gibson _at things people use Gibsons for_. Like some import LP. Because epiphone isn't comparable. Hell, Navigator isn't as good. Even many PRS or Huber and instruments that are made phenomenally well are often not better at achieving those sounds.



I'm a Gibson fanboy, but I get it. Your average Gibson fan is worse than some of the people on here that won't buy a guitar unless it meets this very specific esoteric set of specs.

Guitar started to be a lot more fun after I quit caring about specs and just started buying cool shit. Plays good, sounds rad, looks rad and it's a good guitar. The only specs I know on my guitars are Gibsons are made out of mahogany and are Gibson scale and Fenders are made out of alder or ash or something and are Fender scale.


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## Thrashman (Aug 7, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> Such as? Genuinely interested



The mass of the body and neck combined is just too light which means the tonal frequency center of the guitars clash with notes in the D/F area. i could find you a wolf tone on pretty much any chambered strandberg within 2 minutes and did this for fun at GuitarGuitar in the UK with all their models.

I wish I was lying to spite them, but... I'm just sharing actual experiences. I went through 4 strandbergs and reported & demonstrated the issue for Ola and his final solution was to blame it on me


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## USMarine75 (Aug 7, 2021)

eggy in a bready said:


> i've played MII guitars that blow recent Gibsons out of the water in every way possible. y'all need to look past the stigma of imports and realize that MIA means very little in the way of guitars these days.



I've driven Toyotas that blow recent Ferraris out of the water in every way possible. 

^ Equally useless statement.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 7, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> I am not entirely sure I have witnessed any any overhyped reaction to Gibson. They have their passionate fans and certainly their detractors and you can complain about price but welcome to MADE IN AMERICA....as in more fucking expensive labor than Indonesia. You can't compare quality and price when one guitar is made where labor is like 20 cents to the dollar. Also, Gibson has a built in premium because of the fact they increase in value like almost no other guitar.
> 
> But there is not an over-reaction to the brand because they've been pumping out the same basic stuff for 60+ years and the only time anyone talks about them is when they fuck up and make a stupid authentic video or reinvent the tuner.
> 
> ...



Exactly. 

Gibson is Frank Sinatra. Timeless. 

PRS is Liberace.


----------



## j3ps3 (Aug 7, 2021)

Thrashman said:


> The mass of the body and neck combined is just too light which means the tonal frequency center of the guitars clash with notes in the D/F area. i could find you a wolf tone on pretty much any chambered strandberg within 2 minutes and did this for fun at GuitarGuitar in the UK with all their models.
> 
> I wish I was lying to spite them, but... I'm just sharing actual experiences. I went through 4 strandbergs and reported & demonstrated the issue for Ola and his final solution was to blame it on me




Wood is not a homogenous material, though, so the weight and the chambered construction have nothing to do with what you described.


----------



## budda (Aug 7, 2021)

Has anyone said "custom built guitars" yet? I'm not re-reading 3 and a half pages .


----------



## Thrashman (Aug 7, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> Wood is not a homogenous material, though, so the weight and the chambered construction have nothing to do with what you described.


Maybe not, but it is a consistent issue across 20+ examples.


----------



## mmr007 (Aug 7, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Gibson is Frank Sinatra. Timeless.
> 
> PRS is Liberace.



I thought "lighten up Francis" couldn't be topped and then I get "PRS is Liberace" mic drop. Need to find out how to put that in my signature....


----------



## michael_bolton (Aug 7, 2021)

Aristides crowd has a sizeable subset known for their propensity to order an instrument, be all psyched about it while it's getting built, get it in a few months and then sell it in a few months, typically keeping one or two older builds on hand. Imo this does not make Aristides "overhyped", they make awesome instruments with pretty much flawless builds. Don't think I've ever seen any complaints related to their build quality. 

I love mine, it's a 6 string which I barely played in 2 years since I mostly play 7s now but if I do decide to thin the herd a bit at some point it'll probably be the last one to go.


----------



## beerandbeards (Aug 7, 2021)

These threads are created to trigger me and all my guitars 

I cant think of guitars as overhyped. There’s hype because a large portion of players find them of quality. Maybe I’m just lucky, but every guitar I’ve bought I’ve enjoyed regardless of brand. I can play Chuck Schuldiner riffs on a any guitar, but I really like my Majesty, Gibson LP and Fender Tele.

All that being said, any guitar with more than 6 strings in overhyped…


----------



## xzacx (Aug 7, 2021)

narad said:


> Some very loud, very bad takes on Gibson in this thread. Would you pick up a banjo and be like... "huh, heavy, 4 strings, high action. Used prestige was better in all respects"?
> 
> Wake me up when an import is better than a Gibson _at things people use Gibsons for_. Like some import LP. Because epiphone isn't comparable. Hell, Navigator isn't as good. Even many PRS or Huber and instruments that are made phenomenally well are often not better at achieving those sounds.



Les Pauls have been used on countless records from every genre imaginable for roughly seven decades, and almost every guitar maker you can name has attempted their own version of what Gibson does. It would almost be hard to overhype something with THAT as its resume.

guitar players: “I want something that looks like an LP, sounds like an LP, and plays like an LP.”

also guitar players: “But not an LP because those suck.”

Not necessarily anyone in this thread but I’ve seen this scenario play out many times on forums over the years.


----------



## mmr007 (Aug 7, 2021)

eggy in a bready said:


> ignoring the blatant assumptions and downright weird things you said in that post...



Blatant assumptions? Weird things? Such as?

I'm sorry but there have been countless posts on this forum website of people bitching and complaining that for the price they are paying their Ibanez should be made in Japan not Indonesia. Why should that matter? Based on the arguments now being used against Gibson supporters. Because it does. Where a guitar is made still matters to a lot of people for a perception of value and Gibson has (along with Fender USA) cornered a market for people who look at the historical significance of the instrument and the future resale or investment value. That is not overhyped.

Granted my perspective may be skewed because the only forum I belong to and visit is this one and it is not exactly full of Gibson fan bois...but even with my constant guitar related youtube viewing I don't see Gibson hype.

Everyone from Led Zeppelin to Metallica to AC/DC plays Gibson. That is not hype. That is real. Kirk Hammett has ESP...one of the most quality guitar makers on the planet giving him everything he wants and he still went to Gibson....did he buy into some Gibson hype machine or did he just really want what makes him happy...a les paul and a flying V just like his heroes such as Michael Schenker and Gary Moore?


----------



## angl2k (Aug 7, 2021)

Must be blackmachine.. just a basic guitar with a polarizing headstock design and magical fairy tone at a magical price point 

Also in terms of parts, definitely Hipshot. They make decent products but I'm not gonna swap all my parts to Hipshot for the sake of getting a Hipshot.


----------



## AltecGreen (Aug 7, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> I am not entirely sure I have witnessed any any overhyped reaction to Gibson. They have their passionate fans and certainly their detractors and you can complain about price but welcome to MADE IN AMERICA....as in more fucking expensive labor than Indonesia. You can't compare quality and price when one guitar is made where labor is like 20 cents to the dollar. Also, Gibson has a built in premium because of the fact they increase in value like almost no other guitar.




I can't completely buy that argument. There are lots of Japanese made Gibson-like guitars that beat Gibson at every price point. You can't say the cost of labor in Japan is much less than the US. Many of those Japanese guitars are better replicas of the vintage than what Gibson make themselves. Those new Gibson Korina guitars are a perfect example. Gibsons asking $20K for the limited version with Brazillian rosewood fretboard and $10K for the production version with Indian rosewood. Momose in Japan make production versions of the V. It's $2K for the Korina V with Indian rosewood and $4K for the version with Brazillian rosewood. I trust the Momose to have better QC than the Gibson.


----------



## AltecGreen (Aug 7, 2021)

narad said:


> Some very loud, very bad takes on Gibson in this thread. Would you pick up a banjo and be like... "huh, heavy, 4 strings, high action. Used prestige was better in all respects"?
> 
> Wake me up when an import is better than a Gibson _at things people use Gibsons for_. Like some import LP. Because epiphone isn't comparable. Hell, Navigator isn't as good. Even many PRS or Huber and instruments that are made phenomenally well are often not better at achieving those sounds.



The question I have is something you are in the best position to answer. There's no secret sauce for making a Gibson guitars. They have been dissected and studied for years. In Japan, you have lots of domestic makers making very accurate versions of Gibson guitars. You find all of the magic Gibson buzz words like long tenon, horse hide glue, etc. So what makes Gibson better other than the name of the headstock. Besides Navigator, I'm looking at Crews, g7, Provision, etc.


----------



## Adieu (Aug 7, 2021)

Horse hide?

Boycott Gibson save the ponies!!!


----------



## wheresthefbomb (Aug 7, 2021)

Electric.


----------



## narad (Aug 7, 2021)

AltecGreen said:


> The question I have is something you are in the best position to answer. There's no secret sauce for making a Gibson guitars. They have been dissected and studied for years. In Japan, you have lots of domestic makers making very accurate versions of Gibson guitars. You find all of the magic Gibson buzz words like long tenon, horse hide glue, etc. So what makes Gibson better other than the name of the headstock. Besides Navigator, I'm looking at Crews, g7, Provision, etc.



I'm honestly not sure.

An obvious guess is the pickups. I've played a Crews before with K&T PAF-styles, and while I didn't get to A/B it with anything and it was a while ago, I was super impressed. The guitar was nowhere near there craftsmanship / feel-wise, but the sound was basically there. But then you're talking about a 120,000Y set of pickups. In Navigators you're getting SDs, in Momose I think you're getting mainly proprietary things.

Another thing could be materials. This varies and there's a lot of things I'm not sure of, but if you look at the revisions Gibson makes to the historics each year for like 2013-2020, they're small changes in hardware and wiring that aren't immediately obvious. There's really no telling to me whether other builders trying to produce Gibson-style guitars are milling comparable ones. The wood stash could be another material issue. One obvious thing is that you'll almost never find a Japanese LP with a Gibson comparable top, and if you do, they're usually already 400,00-700,000Y. If you run the rack of Navigators or Crews or Momose, you find this really weak tops. When there's flames it's a more tight flame that's not really "the look" of the vintage LPs everything is striving for. So you know they're making some compromises somewhere in terms of sourcing the right materials. Which is why if I picked one of these up, it'd probably be a goldtop or black beauty -- the others just don't look authentic. Gibson has the advantage here -- big wood stores, and domestic maple.

Another thing is the sort of "broken in" stuff. My Navigators were all sort of like new production guitars. My R9 has a really broken in feel -- the neck lacquer feels great and the binding edges are all subtle angled in a way that just feels more at home.

So I think a Crews or Momose with a pickup swap isn't a bad option, but I hate to get a guitar and then start swapping the caps, and the bridge studs, and the saddles, etc. There are some really fanatical Japanese luthiers who go after LPs and are basically the Gil Yarons of the country, but their guitars actually cost more than most Gibson historics anyway. I haven't had the chance to play any of those -- I saw a Fullertone one before, but it was 900,000Y and the guy wouldn't let me try it.

That's just kind of a general answer, I forget what people are arguing about. I think it's hard to really make a solid argument when the variables all change across various price points. If you have $1500 to spend, I think the QC with Crews is better than the Gibsons in that bracket (and maybe a bit higher). But if you have $5k to spend, I wouldn't take any of them over a Gibson.

Regarding the cost of labor, it's true that country to country the basic stats don't seem so different, but they could be. The salaries and cost of living in Japan outside of the cities is super low. Gibson is in Nashville, which isn't so rural. It's not valid, but if we looked at average salaries at Nashville vs maybe Nagano, it's like 2x difference. I think probably the cost of labor makes a difference, but too many unknowns.


----------



## AltecGreen (Aug 7, 2021)

narad said:


> I'm honestly not sure.
> 
> An obvious guess is the pickups. I've played a Crews before with K&T PAF-styles, and while I didn't get to A/B it with anything and it was a while ago, I was super impressed. The guitar was nowhere near there craftsmanship / feel-wise, but the sound was basically there. But then you're talking about a 120,000Y set of pickups. In Navigators you're getting SDs, in Momose I think you're getting mainly proprietary things.
> 
> ...




That's a pretty good answer. I do find it funny that some of those Japanese builders are even more fanatical than Gibson and are priced at an equally obscene level. Those K+T pickups have an obscene price. I think Gibson have pretty strong economy of scale. It's when they price things like those Korina re-issues that make people's head scratch.


----------



## John (Aug 7, 2021)

budda said:


> Has anyone said "custom built guitars" yet? I'm not re-reading 3 and a half pages .



I'll add to that in saying semi-customs belong here, too. Especially thanks to folks who keep trying to pass them off as fully custom guitars.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 7, 2021)

budda said:


> Has anyone said "custom built guitars" yet? I'm not re-reading 3 and a half pages .



_Hey, how do you know someone has a custom guitar?

Don't worry, they'll let you know._


----------



## Marked Man (Aug 7, 2021)

Far too many Gibson Les Pauls......


----------



## MikeH (Aug 7, 2021)

Les Pauls have been in production since 1952. Obviously there are a lot of fucking Les Pauls out there, guys…


----------



## narad (Aug 7, 2021)

AltecGreen said:


> That's a pretty good answer. I do find it funny that some of those Japanese builders are even more fanatical than Gibson and are priced at an equally obscene level. Those K+T pickups have an obscene price. I think Gibson have pretty strong economy of scale. It's when they price things like those Korina re-issues that make people's head scratch.



Yea, I mean, the thing is that they sell those Korina reissues. Economically it's smart to do those ludicrously-priced limited runs, and of course I can't defend that as a good bang-for-your-buck. They're just cashing in on collectors. But they've also done plenty of reasonably priced explorer/V reissues, too. So I think in that sense, if trying to make comparisons between the countries, the more production-minded runs (like just usual R8s/R9s) are the more meaningful models to look at.



MaxOfMetal said:


> _Hey, how do you know someone has a custom guitar?
> 
> Don't worry, they'll let you know._



Damn, I thought that was what we were supposed to be doing here. Speaking of, man, I miss the days when every week there were a few new custom builds getting finished up and NAD'd. Enough to support a Guitar-of-the-Month.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 7, 2021)

narad said:


> Yea, I mean, the thing is that they sell those Korina reissues. Economically it's smart to do those ludicrously-priced limited runs, and of course I can't defend that as a good bang-for-your-buck. They're just cashing in on collectors. But they've also done plenty of reasonably priced explorer/V reissues, too. So I think in that sense, if trying to make comparisons between the countries, the more production-minded runs (like just usual R8s/R9s) are the more meaningful models to look at.
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, I thought that was what we were supposed to be doing here. Speaking of, man, I miss the days when every week there were a few new custom builds getting finished up and NAD'd. Enough to support a Guitar-of-the-Month.



I too miss GOTM. But everyone is a shit head and it's not worth the grief. Really, I'm genuinely bummed that everyone was an absolute turd about it. I get enough angry PMs about how the site works (it doesn't) during the week to get a dozen more because someone's Legator with some stickers didn't meet the criteria or that the whole thing is rigged. I lost a lot of faith in this place when I tried to get it up and going last time.


----------



## Protestheriphery (Aug 8, 2021)

PRS. They earn their reputation for craftsmanship and feel. Their "versatility" is irrelevant to me, however. The 2 and 4 positions on Custom 24s sound tinny, in comparison to an actual strat. I personally dont buy a $4000 carved top, hh, mahogany guitar to get strat tones anyway. The overall tone is pretty bland and neutral compared to everything else I've ever owned. I was actually pretty happy to unload my PRS, it was pretty underwhelming.


----------



## nightlight (Aug 8, 2021)

On the subject of custom guitars: What about brands like Vik? Or Vandejmeister (is that how it's spelt)? Or what about other boutique builders?

I honestly remember how my knowledge of instruments was limited to Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, ESP and Yamaha. There are just so many choices now and I often get overwhelmed. 

The one thread that always comes to mind when I think of buying boutique is the guy over here who was raving about this guitar he had custom built and raving about the builder to everyone. Then he came back a while later and said the guitar could not be intonated because it was a flawed design. 

I really am quite wary of going to any company which doesn't have a significant amount of guitars sold to buy a guitar. They cost an arm and a leg quite often. Heck, I even owned a Mayones Custom at one point of time that went "BONG" if you didn't palm mute on the low E. Great guitar, but it drove me crazy.


----------



## works0fheart (Aug 8, 2021)

I've played a few Vik guitars. They were pretty well made instruments honestly. That was years ago though, I can't speak for their quality now. I haven't actually heard them brought up ever since the owner ousted himself as a bigot idiot.


----------



## narad (Aug 8, 2021)

nightlight said:


> On the subject of custom guitars: What about brands like Vik? Or Vandejmeister (is that how it's spelt)? Or what about other boutique builders?



Vik guitars are very good tools but not very good in terms of boutique craftsmanship. If you ever see close up pics or one in person, look where the body meets the neck. The joints are fine but the finish work there is often pretty subpar. Then if it has binding, look at the corners around where the binding meets. Often there's a good amount of filler there. Or when he does fancy inlays on the say pre-2014 stuff, look around the inlays. One of the pickup routes on one of mine was pretty sloppy too -- the route around the tab in the pickup wasn't quite a symmetric shape. 

None of this stuff takes away from the guitars in terms of playability and mine were both really good in that regard, good/great sounding, but that's not really what I expect in the high end space.


----------



## StevenC (Aug 8, 2021)

narad said:


> Vik guitars are very good tools but not very good in terms of boutique craftsmanship. If you ever see close up pics or one in person, look where the body meets the neck. The joints are fine but the finish work there is often pretty subpar. Then if it has binding, look at the corners around where the binding meets. Often there's a good amount of filler there. Or when he does fancy inlays on the say pre-2014 stuff, look around the inlays. One of the pickup routes on one of mine was pretty sloppy too -- the route around the tab in the pickup wasn't quite a symmetric shape.
> 
> None of this stuff takes away from the guitars in terms of playability and mine were both really good in that regard, good/great sounding, but that's not really what I expect in the high end space.


One time I picked up a Vik and it literally started falling apart.


----------



## Emperoff (Aug 8, 2021)

Overpriced? All of them.

Overhyped? Probably none of them. People's opinions on gear are so strong that you can choose your hype of preference (which comes with its own built-in haters).


----------



## nightlight (Aug 8, 2021)

works0fheart said:


> I've played a few Vik guitars. They were pretty well made instruments honestly. That was years ago though, I can't speak for their quality now. I haven't actually heard them brought up ever since the owner ousted himself as a bigot idiot.



What was this all about? Hadn't heard about it. I follow them on Instagram, and might follow consequently.


----------



## Thrashman (Aug 8, 2021)

He's just a homophobe and couldn't keep his mouth shut in public.

Shame as he seems to be making top notch guitars, or, he was rumored to until recently as apparently they're not all that good


----------



## j3ps3 (Aug 8, 2021)

nightlight said:


> What was this all about? Hadn't heard about it. I follow them on Instagram, and might follow consequently.



https://metalinjection.net/news/dra...rks-gets-denounced-by-periphery-scar-symmetry

I still can't understand how someone could possibly be that stupid. Everyone has the right for their own opinion but if you run a business you should know that this is not the way to go


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 8, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> https://metalinjection.net/news/dra...rks-gets-denounced-by-periphery-scar-symmetry
> 
> I still can't understand how someone could possibly be that stupid. Everyone has the right for their own opinion but if you run a business you should know that this is not the way to go



Simple: hubris. 

The dude was always a dipshit and his guitars were always suspect. But they were pretty, and rare, and artists liked parading them around, so he got popular.


----------



## Lozek (Aug 8, 2021)

Any guitar which cost more than £500 and hasn't been used onstage or featured on a recording that is not titled 'Mix_Test_Final_6_Revision2_Final_Final.wav'


----------



## dr_game0ver (Aug 8, 2021)

Any pre 1985 MIJ stuff. Some are good, but not at that price.


----------



## Adieu (Aug 8, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> https://metalinjection.net/news/dra...rks-gets-denounced-by-periphery-scar-symmetry
> 
> I still can't understand how someone could possibly be that stupid. Everyone has the right for their own opinion but if you run a business you should know that this is not the way to go



Jeez... 2021

The guy owes some people guitars they paid him to build 10 years ago, but it's the grumbling about people's sexual preferences that FINALLY gets him in hot water


----------



## narad (Aug 8, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Jeez... 2021
> 
> The guy owes some people guitars they paid him to build 10 years ago, but it's the grumbling about people's sexual preferences that FINALLY gets him in hot water



The hot water is from 2014.


----------



## StevenC (Aug 8, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Jeez... 2021
> 
> The guy owes some people guitars they paid him to build 10 years ago, but it's the grumbling about people's sexual preferences that FINALLY gets him in hot water


He wasn't any later than the expected "small shop custom delay" when he outed himself as a bigot. The Nolly run was a behind the most behind at that point, but he's now almost a decade behind on two 8 string runs. He's a shitty person for a whole bunch of reasons and has no self-awareness of that fact.

Did @elq ever get their guitar?


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Aug 8, 2021)

Vik already had a bad rep before then. He was late on many builds, taking deposits to go on vacations, building in-stocks to sell at inflated prices.

My Duality played and sounded great but had some issues with needing a setup every month, the neck needed better finish. I would have kept it if it wasn’t such a shitty experience ordering it.

and years later very little has changed. He still fights and fall outs with customers while not completing builds several years overdue.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 8, 2021)

StevenC said:


> He wasn't any later than the expected "small shop custom delay" when he outed himself as a bigot. The Nolly run was a behind the most behind at that point, but he's now almost a decade behind on two 8 string runs. He's a shitty person for a whole bunch of reasons and has no self-awareness of that fact.
> 
> Did @elq ever get their guitar?



Wait, the guy who refers to himself as "Master" might lack self-awareness? Whodathunkit?


----------



## StevenC (Aug 8, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Wait, the guy who refers to himself as "Master" might lack self-awareness? Whodathunkit?


Truly the Alex Gregory of the music world.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 8, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Truly the Alex Gregory of the music world.



He's certainly the Alex Gregory of Bernie Ricos.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 8, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Jeez... 2021
> 
> The guy owes some people guitars they paid him to build 10 years ago, but it's the grumbling about people's sexual preferences that FINALLY gets him in hot water



I have no problem with this. 



narad said:


> The hot water is from 2014.



But also this is the case. I recall people complaining he was behind, but it wasn't as bad as it is now. 

It's one thing to be a bigot (fuck him for it for sure), it's another thing to use that bigotry against 2 of the most beloved people in progressive rock/metal. 



Lorcan Ward said:


> Vik already had a bad rep before then. He was late on many builds, taking deposits to go on vacations, building in-stocks to sell at inflated prices.



And this. Like I said, there was some stuff about him being off with builds. If anything the homophobic outburst helped put a spotlight on that stuff as well.


----------



## nightlight (Aug 9, 2021)

Interesting. So other than the bigotry, there was also a problem with delayed builds. I guess I'll cross Vik off my list of builders to further investigate. 

I remember how Emperor cabs had similar problems after they trashed Jim Marshall's cabinets after he died. And wasn't there a pedal builder who also got into trouble after posting something against the looting during the rioting over George Floyd's death?


----------



## SamSam (Aug 9, 2021)

nightlight said:


> And wasn't there a pedal builder who also got into trouble after posting something against the looting during the rioting over George Floyd's death?



I believe that was Fulltone, happy to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I recall people saying they would no longer use their OCDs.


----------



## StevenC (Aug 9, 2021)

Yeah, screw Mike Fuller and that Fender guy especially.

Right up there with Clapton in not understanding their place in music history.


----------



## Paul McAleer (Aug 9, 2021)

Kiesel.

Legator.

Any poplar burl guitar with that blue/green burst so it looks like the bottom of a porta potty septic tank.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Aug 9, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Jeez... 2021
> 
> The guy owes some people guitars they paid him to build 10 years ago, but it's the grumbling about people's sexual preferences that FINALLY gets him in hot water


 he's lucky he spewed mouth garbage in 2014 and not 2021


----------



## Dooky (Aug 10, 2021)

Fender Stratocasters
Especially USA and Custom Shop.


----------



## John (Aug 10, 2021)

SamSam said:


> I believe that was Fulltone, happy to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I recall people saying they would no longer use their OCDs.



Yeah, Fulltone got into trouble from such remarks at the time. ie- Guitar Center and Reverb also stopped stopped selling that stuff.
Similarly, there's another smaller scale pedal builder called _Greenchild Amplification_ who followed not too long after with his own brand of self-destruction on Instagram and other social media fronts due to making remarks that were just as awful, tonedeaf, and moronic, if not worse. The latter got zucc'ed for awhile, but last I heard he's back with another social media account spewing more of the same dumpster-fire type material.


----------



## Ross82 (Aug 10, 2021)

Gibson, without a doubt.


----------



## Solomon Monagle (Aug 10, 2021)

Mayones - they make really good guitars and the QC is excellent, but they're not the otherwordly, mana from heaven guitars that people worship them as. Spend 4000+ (Australian) for a used Mayo, spend less than half that for a used ESP Horizon and get the same build quality with a more comfortable neck.

Also Bareknuckle pups - overpriced, tinny shite.


----------



## guns_of_minerva (Aug 10, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Exactly! Les Pauls are for big burly people with Duck Dynasty beards who use a logging chain for a strap and have gigantic hands that can only manage to make pinch harmonics as they grasp at the strings.


Or Adam Jones!

I don't think Gibson's are hyped at all, in fact I remember for most of the 2010's they were shit on big time.

Exhibit 1:







http://legacy.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Firebird/Gibson-USA/Firebird-X/Specs.aspx

My fav feature is every string has it owns DI.

Exhibit 2:





And the finally:
Gibson try to make amends from the Firebird-X and instigate a PR disaster


These brilliant business dissensions (plus plenty more) cause Gibson into go into administration. 

Honorable mention:


----------



## Jamiecrain (Aug 10, 2021)

There always seems to be a lot of used Aristides for sale. Hmmm...


----------



## StevenC (Aug 10, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Exhibit 1:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish more guitars had hex outputs, even if only so the technology could move to more affordable hept and octa outputs.

I'm super sad that while I 100% will buy an Adrian Belew strat when it's available, I know I'll have to add a GK-3 pickup.


----------



## Neon_Knight_ (Aug 10, 2021)

Anything made by Gibson or Fender - overpriced and stuck in the past (other brands incorporated 50 years of innovations that Gibson and Fender have largely shunned in favour of being "vintage").

Headless guitars apparently are great for people with back pain, but for the most part are overhyped for looking cool (despite actually looking ridiculous), so are mostly just a dumb gimmick imo.


----------



## Ross82 (Aug 10, 2021)

Solomon Monagle said:


> Mayones - they make really good guitars and the QC is excellent, but they're not the otherwordly, mana from heaven guitars that people worship them as. Spend 4000+ (Australian) for a used Mayo, spend less than half that for a used ESP Horizon and get the same build quality with a more comfortable neck.
> 
> Also Bareknuckle pups - overpriced, tinny shite.



Wow, I'm surprised at this. I've owned a lot of ESP's over the years and I couldn't say any of them compared to my Mayones for build quality, not to say they were bad but definitely not to the same level. Oddly enough I've also recently been using BKP pickups in place of the EMG's I'd used religiously for over 20 years and was very impressed with them as an alternative, especially in a passive pickup.

Out of curiosity which Mayones/BKP did you have?


----------



## RPF13 (Aug 10, 2021)

To me it is definitely Gibson, especially the LesPaul. Don’t get me wrong, the guitar is iconic and looks nice but when I see how much you have to pay for a standard production model….
….and then compare it with the price (and quality) of a production Mayones model, which is hand made….
The Mayones play in another galaxy compared to that.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 10, 2021)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Anything made by Gibson or Fender - overpriced and stuck in the past (other brands incorporated 50 years of innovations that Gibson and Fender have largely shunned in favour of being "vintage").



I feel like folks who say this just don't keep up with the brands and only think of the reissue/VOS stuff vs. the whole product catalog. 

Not to mention in Fender's case, they tend to offer certain, more contemporary specs through sub-brands. 

I'd say no mainstream guitar company has innovated as much as Gibson or Fender, and not just in the early days but even in the last couple decades. 

Have all those ideas been successful? Of course not, but that's how innovation works. You try something novel and with purpose and hope it pans out, it usually doesn't, for a lot of reasons.

Just in the last two decades we've seen multiple attempts at hot swappable pickups, plug and play modular electronics, ethically and sustainably sourced woods, alternative materials, built-in digital and hexaphonic pickup schemes, hardware with greater user adjustability, adjustable scales, continuation of the transposing trem, new types of low impedance pickups, and plenty more. That doesn't even include mainstream application of multi-scale and headless.


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## StevenC (Aug 10, 2021)

RPF13 said:


> To me it is definitely Gibson, especially the LesPaul. Don’t get me wrong, the guitar is iconic and looks nice but when I see how much you have to pay for a standard production model….
> ….and then compare it with the price (and quality) of a production Mayones model, which is hand made….
> The Mayones play in another galaxy compared to that.


My Gibson is 15 years old, cost $600 brand new and is better than every Mayones I've ever touched. And I've played some pricey Mayoneses.


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## DjEnTboy010001 (Aug 10, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Headless. God they look ugly as fuck. Fanned fret too. How the hell do you fret a barre chord on the first fret?


I own one and have no problems playing barre chords on any fret, infact, i find it easier to play them on a fanned fret than its straight counterpart. In regards to headless guitar looking"ugly as fuck", thats subjective and keep your opinions to your self


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 10, 2021)

You can almost tell where someone is based on their opinion of Mayones. They're such a better option in Europe still. I know for awhile they were trying to bulk up their dealer footprint in the US, and help make pricing more competitive, but it just hasn't happened yet.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 10, 2021)

DjEnTboy010001 said:


> In regards to headless guitar looking"ugly as fuck", thats subjective and keep your opinions to your self


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## Ross82 (Aug 10, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You can almost tell where someone is based on their opinion of Mayones. They're such a better option in Europe still. I know for awhile they were trying to bulk up their dealer footprint in the US, and help make pricing more competitive, but it just hasn't happened yet.



It's a shame because from what I've experienced of them they're fantastic guitars but the NA pricing on them is insanely inflated IMO, especially the used market. The same seems to be the case with Aviator guitars which I admittedly haven't had a chance to try and would love to but its hard to make the blind leap at that price.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 10, 2021)

Yeah I want a Mayones super super bad, but I just can't justify the N/A prices. Its like owning a Mesa in Europe.


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## Demiurge (Aug 10, 2021)

I have no personal stake in the stealth guitar culture war going on since I've got "modern" and "classic" models and earnestly enjoy each. That said, I find it less bothersome for classic designs to continue being promoted as guitars that are good to play than the same fucking superstrat- itself no Spring chicken- heralded year after year as the vanguard of innovation.


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## StevenC (Aug 10, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You can almost tell where someone is based on their opinion of Mayones. They're such a better option in Europe still. I know for awhile they were trying to bulk up their dealer footprint in the US, and help make pricing more competitive, but it just hasn't happened yet.


I'm from Europe. They're overpriced here too.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 10, 2021)

I just can't get past the name.


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## Ross82 (Aug 10, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I'm from Europe. They're overpriced here too.



I wouldn't say they're overpriced. They're around the same price as PRS, EBMM, Jackson USA.


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## bostjan (Aug 10, 2021)

I'm surprised at how many comments I see in this thread that read like: "I've never tried X, but X is definitely dumb and overhyped."


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## budda (Aug 10, 2021)

bostjan said:


> I'm surprised at how many comments I see in this thread that read like: "I've never tried X, but X is definitely dumb and overhyped."



No you're not 

(You joined in 05, this cant be a surprise haha)


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## StevenC (Aug 10, 2021)

Ross82 said:


> I wouldn't say they're overpriced. They're around the same price as PRS, EBMM, Jackson USA.


And every PRS and EBMM I've played has been a far better guitar than every Mayones I've tried, and crucially haven't bed lifeless planks.

The best Mayones I've played was a 7 string V and everything else wasn't worth the time of day. They also have the worst, most plastic gloss finishes I've ever touched.


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## Ross82 (Aug 10, 2021)

StevenC said:


> And every PRS and EBMM I've played has been a far better guitar than every Mayones I've tried, and crucially haven't bed lifeless planks.
> 
> The best Mayones I've played was a 7 string V and everything else wasn't worth the time of day. They also have the worst, most plastic gloss finishes I've ever touched.



Man, you must have the worst luck in trying out guitars. Gloss finishes are grotesque on any brand IMO.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 10, 2021)

StevenC said:


> And every PRS and EBMM I've played has been a far better guitar than every Mayones I've tried, and crucially haven't bed lifeless planks.
> 
> The best Mayones I've played was a 7 string V and everything else wasn't worth the time of day. They also have the worst, most plastic gloss finishes I've ever touched.



I currently own two Mayones and sold the third.

One is a Regius 6 in negative blackburst with Juggs. The burst top looks like a photo veneer and not a particularly good one. It does have the finished back and neck so that looks great. It is a very sterile dead sounding guitar. So yeah, uggo face but a nice backside.

The other I still have is a Regius 7 with the red pore stain or whatever they call it from Axe Palace. It was stupidly expensive for a stock guitar - 2am drunk purchase . It has BKP Impulse pickups and it sounds great for heavy stuff but not for anything else.

The one I sold was a NAMM (2016 IIRC?) Setius GTM7 in purple pore/stain. Fantastic looking but it honestly played and sounded no better than my Loomis which is why I sold it.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 10, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> One is a Regius 6 in negative blackburst with *Juggs*.



Niiiiiiice.... [Two seconds later] .... oh, pickups.


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## TheBlackBard (Aug 10, 2021)

DjEnTboy010001 said:


> I own one and have no problems playing barre chords on any fret, infact, i find it easier to play them on a fanned fret than its straight counterpart. In regards to headless guitar looking"ugly as fuck", thats subjective and keep your opinions to your self



This is an opinions thread. I had one that clearly rubbed you the wrong way Djentboy. Don't like it, stay off the Internet.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 10, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Headless. God they look ugly as fuck. Fanned fret too. How the hell do you fret a barre chord on the first fret?





DjEnTboy010001 said:


> I own one and have no problems playing barre chords on any fret, infact, i find it easier to play them on a fanned fret than its straight counterpart. In regards to headless guitar looking"ugly as fuck", thats subjective and keep your opinions to your self





TheBlackBard said:


> This is an opinions thread. I had one that clearly rubbed you the wrong way Djentboy. Don't like it, stay off the Internet.



Well, I enjoy head.

YMMV


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## StevenC (Aug 10, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> The one I sold was a NAMM (2016 IIRC?) Setius GTM7 in purple pore/stain. Fantastic looking but it honestly played and sounded no better than my Loomis which is why I sold it.


Yeah this exactly. The Setius always struck me as looking like a Schecter Loomis already.

Also USA Schecters are cheaper than Mayones and better in literally everyway.


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## 4Eyes (Aug 10, 2021)

Anything that pretends to be a "better" classic, or "inovations" that didn"t really made it to be widely successful is overhyped to me.


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## Lionsden (Aug 10, 2021)

Currently, there is no answer besides anything Abasi Concepts….their stuff is GROSSLY overhyped right now as evident bunted fact that they’re extremely expensive, have been plagued with QC issues and they sell like hotcakes both new and used for top top dollar.


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## Solomon Monagle (Aug 11, 2021)

Nice man! always cool to have a discussion about this stuff, I appreciate your reply  I've got a 2020 Regius Gothic 6 - it's a bloody sick guitar, and maybe I got lucky out of the box, but my 2009 Horizon is equal to it. the neck thing is entirely subjective, I just find the Regius neck slightly too wide from side to side for my hands, so I get a little more strain from it.

What mayo do you play? Also I do still need to add a Regius Core to my arsenal haha, the extra carve on top makes a world of difference so perhaps it's an unfair comparison between the flattop Regius and carved Horizon.

as for BKP, I had some Blackhawks, Warpigs (C) and Nailbombs. I liked the Blackhawks the least, then the Nailbombs. the warpigs were pretty cool, but I've basically uniformly swapped them out for an SD Nazgul/Sentient set in the respective guitars, which is my go to set.


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## onefingersweep (Aug 11, 2021)

Pat said:


> Not a particular brand, but I don't understand people who feel they _need _certain things otherwise they can't play the guitar - scale length, fanned frets, evertunes etc. Most of the best songs ever written, in all genres, were played on guitars with more 'traditional' specs.


I have several favourite songs which has been recorded with suboptimal gear. Just because a song is great doesn't mean that the production is great. Stuff you mention are different ways of making something sound better.


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## SamSam (Aug 11, 2021)

StevenC said:


> They also have the worst, most plastic gloss finishes I've ever touched.



100% agree with this. I enjoy my two mayones guitars and may buy more. But I would never buy a gloss finished model. The sticky finish they apply is awful.


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## Razzle (Aug 11, 2021)

PRS earns this distinction.... BY FAR


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## budda (Aug 11, 2021)

Razzle said:


> PRS earns this distinction.... BY FAR



As a fan of their guitars, Im curious to what lead you to this?

I dont think many guitarists i know irl hype PRS at all, and I get flack reasonably regularly for liking and owning a few .


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## TheBlackBard (Aug 11, 2021)

I have two PRS guitars and they do what I want them to do, but it's not like I'm out there saying "hey these are the greatest guitars on the planet." For me, they sound good, they feel right, and they're perfect for my application. The most hype I'll ever give them is that I'm not letting either of them go, ever, and one is a Korean model while the other is Indonesian.


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## nightlight (Aug 12, 2021)

Solomon Monagle said:


> Mayones - they make really good guitars and the QC is excellent, but they're not the otherwordly, mana from heaven guitars that people worship them as. Spend 4000+ (Australian) for a used Mayo, spend less than half that for a used ESP Horizon and get the same build quality with a more comfortable neck.
> 
> Also Bareknuckle pups - overpriced, tinny shite.



I've owned two Mayones - one a Regius 6, one a Regius Core 7. 

I got to say, I agree to a certain extent. The Regius was a great sounding guitar and played very well, but the Schaller Hannes bridge on it had been set up incorrectly, imho, to the point where the low E string would make this horrible "bong" sound if you every picked it without palm muting. Drove me crazy. 

The Regis Core 7, on the other hand, is God's gift to 7 strings. It is absolutely hands down one of the best crafted and playing 7s I have ever handled. Seriously, I'm not exaggerating. 

I think, like all other brands therefore, it pays to try the guitar out instead of buying off the Internet.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 12, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Underhyped around these parts...
> 
> View attachment 96399
> View attachment 96400



I’m old enough and have been playing guitar long enough that I have a Pavlovian response to a Les Paul with humbuckers, doesn’t matter if it’s a Studio, a Standard, or whatever. I see one and I think Slash and I want to listen to Appetite for Destruction.


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## Sermo Lupi (Aug 12, 2021)

This is a very niche example but I'll say Rick Toone.

I was in contact with Rick as far back as 2006 or 2007 due to the fact that I had an acquaintance who owned one of Rick's first guitars. This was back when Rick was still prototyping his "Orchid" basses. Back then, I believe Rick's custom shop prices were around $3,000 but slowly climbed to $5000 as Ola Standberg became more popular. By 2010, Rick partnered with Townsend Machine (a precision machine shop) to make relatively simple creations like fixed bridges and neck cores (which were just solid metal truss rod replacements with no moving parts).

Anyone who looks at Rick Toone's guitars now can see that his work with Townsend Machine was the thin end of the wedge. Nearly all his guitars produced from 2013 onward revolve around elaborate (and exorbitantly expensive) machined parts such as solid aluminum necks, lever-actuated bridges, and so on. His guitars now regularly run $15,000-$20,000, or $7,000-$10,000 for more modestly-spec'd stock models.

It isn't that Rick's guitars are overhyped because they're bad (albeit I've heard a few bad things). It's more that Rick was always targeting the niche, ultra-modern ergonomic guitar market that sat atop that astronomical price point. Even though he collaborated with Ola Strandberg from an early stage, they were diametrically opposed: Strandberg wanted to be affordable and open-source. Rick patented all his work and seemed to be aiming for a Ken Parker trajectory (i.e. post-Parker Guitars, building innovative $20k archtops).

With Tosin and Misha owning a couple of Rick Toone's guitars, obviously hype was bound to happen. I still wouldn't say he exploded in popularity or anything. But it created a wider audience for his work aside from just the guys buying Teuffels. At that price point, I think it is important to understand you're buying art as much as an instrument (which maybe doesn't need to be explained for a $20k guitar that looks like it came out of a coffee table book).

I suppose what I'm saying is those guitars were never intended to be affordable custom guitars for up-and-coming prog metal musicians. The fact that crowd became interested in them was mostly a product of "overhype".


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## Akkush (Aug 12, 2021)

Mayones


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## Ataraxia2320 (Aug 12, 2021)

I'll add to the Mayones dogpile.

They used to be great value guitars back before they were well known and I remember playing a few in Musicstore Köln out of the recommendation from the staff member and thinking it was well worth it's price (cant remember exactly how much it cost, but I think it was just over half the price of the USA built guitars at the time).

Then Mayo took off with support from big artists and the prices raised with it's profile. Now I couldn't in good faith recommend one unless it was a killer deal.


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## michael_bolton (Aug 12, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I’m old enough and have been playing guitar long enough that I have a Pavlovian response to a Les Paul with humbuckers, doesn’t matter if it’s a Studio, a Standard, or whatever. I see one and I think Slash and I want to listen to Appetite for Destruction.



I'm not a fan of LPs or GNR, matter of fact I dislike both lol but I literally can't think of a single criteria by which LPs are overhyped instruments.


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## bostjan (Aug 12, 2021)

michael_bolton said:


> I'm not a fan of LPs or GNR, matter of fact I dislike both lol but I literally can't think of a single criteria by which LPs are overhyped instruments.


Depends on the model. A lot of the "signature" Les Pauls are extremely pricey and don't really offer upgrades that come anywhere near justifying the price hike. But something like a Les Paul Studio is pretty difficult to argue is overpriced. Maybe some people would say it's overhyped because so many guitarists buy them/use them, yet X/Y/Z guitar is better because of opinions A/B/C. Whoever is buying Les Pauls, though, probably doesn't care about A/B/C, and just wants a guitar to play that doesn't totally suck. As long as your back is strong enough to deal with a 7-8 lb guitar and you aren't too bothered by tune-o-matic and a very slightly shorter scale length, then they are decent guitars.


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## Dawn of the Shred (Aug 12, 2021)

I think a lot of the higher end guitars I’ve bought have been overhyped. Higher end or custom. The ones that disappointed me most might EBMM was just meh after the honeymoon phase, Keith Merrow sig was just awful in every way that I have never considered buying a another Schecter. The Mayo’s I’ve had where underwhelming, Every Gibson I’ve played or owned played worse then any Epiphone I’ve had. Every high end ESP has been great for me. I recently got two Aristides 060 and I’m loving them but I’m in the honeymoon phase right now.


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## works0fheart (Aug 12, 2021)

Sermo Lupi said:


> His guitars now regularly run $15,000-$20,000, or $7,000-$10,000 for more modestly-spec'd stock models.



I feel when guitars start getting into this price range and upwards, it's all overhyped. There's only so good of a playability and sound an instrument is going to reach, and I don't think a guitar needs to be this expensive to do that. Conversely, I feel like most of these super expensive instruments don't always sound that good or play as well as guitars I've spent maybe $700 on. 

Not to say I haven't played some great high end guitars, but I don't think anyone needs to buy The Deluxe Reissue Reissue, Limited, One off color, #13 of 150 produced, 1972 Dadblues guitar for the same price as a new car. I also don't get the super gaudy custom guitars made of real Moroccan teak wood, with flamed cocobolo stained tuning machines, with extended scale, fan fret, true temperament, headless, whatever. 

The guitar is a tool. It's okay to want nice tools, but I'm not a fan of the obnoxious culture that surrounds them sometimes.


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## John (Aug 12, 2021)

budda said:


> As a fan of their guitars, Im curious to what lead you to this?
> 
> I dont think many guitarists i know irl hype PRS at all, and I get flack reasonably regularly for liking and owning a few .



Most of the excess negative hype I'm accustomed to hearing against them come from people who are whining over buying the wrong thing. ie- older folks who were expecting something different for whatever reasons, something they're clearly not such as Gibson Les Pauls.
_In an example like that, PRS makes good guitars in their own right- they are their own thing. But if you were really wanting something else like an LP, it would've made a lot more sense to burn that 2-4k, or however much else, on that instead._


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## StevenC (Aug 12, 2021)

works0fheart said:


> I feel when guitars start getting into this price range and upwards, it's all overhyped. There's only so good of a playability and sound an instrument is going to reach, and I don't think a guitar needs to be this expensive to do that. Conversely, I feel like most of these super expensive instruments don't always sound that good or play as well as guitars I've spent maybe $700 on.
> 
> Not to say I haven't played some great high end guitars, but I don't think anyone needs to buy The Deluxe Reissue Reissue, Limited, One off color, #13 of 150 produced, 1972 Dadblues guitar for the same price as a new car. I also don't get the super gaudy custom guitars made of real Moroccan teak wood, with flamed cocobolo stained tuning machines, with extended scale, fan fret, true temperament, headless, whatever.
> 
> The guitar is a tool. It's okay to want nice tools, but I'm not a fan of the obnoxious culture that surrounds them sometimes.


This is exactly what the poster is getting at though. 

The difference between, say, a standard black ESP Horizon and this year's fanciest gaudiest ESP Horizon showpiece isn't going to be playability. It's the effort it takes to execute the concept.

This is what "art guitar" means.


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## BenjaminW (Aug 12, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> But there is not an over-reaction to the brand because they've been pumping out the same basic stuff for 60+ years and the only time anyone talks about them is when they fuck up and make a stupid authentic video or reinvent the tuner.


Or take that same basic stuff and try to be innovative with it such as dip switches, weight relief, finishes that aren't gold tops or bursts, and they fail with it.


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## budda (Aug 12, 2021)

John said:


> Most of the excess negative hype I'm accustomed to hearing against them come from people who are whining over buying the wrong thing. ie- older folks who were expecting something different for whatever reasons, something they're clearly not such as Gibson Les Pauls.
> _In an example like that, PRS makes good guitars in their own right- they are their own thing. But if you were really wanting something else like an LP, it would've made a lot more sense to burn that 2-4k, or however much else, on that instead._



Buy an SC594 and never want for a les paul again


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## John (Aug 12, 2021)

budda said:


> Buy an SC594 and never want for a les paul again



I, for one, have a singlecut trem in conjuction with my trusty CE and Custom 24's so I'm content.

The only silver lining I've had for the LP is the shape. The vast majority of what they've been offering has otherwise been unimpressive and overhyped to me such as the over 9,000 burst reissues among a variety of other things.


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## Sermo Lupi (Aug 12, 2021)

works0fheart said:


> I feel when guitars start getting into this price range and upwards, it's all overhyped. There's only so good of a playability and sound an instrument is going to reach, and I don't think a guitar needs to be this expensive to do that. Conversely, I feel like most of these super expensive instruments don't always sound that good or play as well as guitars I've spent maybe $700 on.
> 
> Not to say I haven't played some great high end guitars, but I don't think anyone needs to buy The Deluxe Reissue Reissue, Limited, One off color, #13 of 150 produced, 1972 Dadblues guitar for the same price as a new car. I also don't get the super gaudy custom guitars made of real Moroccan teak wood, with flamed cocobolo stained tuning machines, with extended scale, fan fret, true temperament, headless, whatever.
> 
> The guitar is a tool. It's okay to want nice tools, but I'm not a fan of the obnoxious culture that surrounds them sometimes.



In Rick's case, I don't doubt that the guitars cost a pretty penny to make. The necks and hardware are all precision machined at shops based in the US who work in aerospace manufacture. Like, not buzz-word "aerospace" as in "aircraft-grade aluminum" but actual shops where Rick's guitar parts are competing for CNC time with Lockheed Martin. That's going to be outrageously expensive and was one reason why Rick had a falling out with Townsend Machine. Or at least that's how I remember it--I believe he sought out another machinist to produce his designs to his spec, probably for a cheaper price. 

Yet from a bird's eye view none of it is necessary. It's like Swiss watchmakers spending $100k in time, tools and materials to produce a $500k watch. At the end of the day it's an exercise in luxury as well as engineering. Rick is genuinely ingenious, but he's often solving "problems" that result in an artful rather than economical solutions. In other words, his guitars are designed to be these expensive pieces of alien tech. That's his niche. The price point and Rube Goldberg-ing is a feature.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 12, 2021)

Guys like Parker, Matsuda, Toone, etc. know they exist in a niche, and a lot of that pricing is based around the idea that they're servicing maybe a dozen or so clients a year, so a lot of the pricing has that output in mind. If these guys are only building a handful of unique pieces a year, the price needs to be high. They don't care if what they're making isn't accessible because it would never work at scale. 

The fact that djentkids wanted Toones was a complete fluke.


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## Emperoff (Aug 12, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guys like Parker, Matsuda, Toone, etc. know they exist in a niche, and a lot of that pricing is based around the idea that they're servicing maybe a dozen or so clients a year, so a lot of the pricing has that output in mind. If these guys are only building a handful of unique pieces a year, the price needs to be high. They don't care if what they're making isn't accessible because it would never work at scale.
> 
> The fact that djentkids wanted Toones was a complete fluke.



You just mentioned Parker and I'll probably be dreaming of those red and emerald green 7-strings out there tonight.


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## michael_bolton (Aug 12, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Depends on the model. A lot of the "signature" Les Pauls are extremely pricey and don't really offer upgrades that come anywhere near justifying the price hike. But something like a Les Paul Studio is pretty difficult to argue is overpriced. ...



sure, but overpriced != overhyped. price might be one of the components through which hype manifests itself lol but it's not just that. if someone is buying an LP primary reason being so they can say they have one so they are cool af (bonus hype - because so and so plays it) - that to me is where hype would be.

there's some of that with any manufacturer out there including Gibson but they are far from the top of the hype list these days. I would go as far as put let's say Kiesel and Aristides - which I own and like both of them as opposed to LPs - higher on that list.


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## gunch (Aug 12, 2021)

Razzle said:


> PRS earns this distinction.... BY FAR



If this was 2003-4 when I was 14-15 and hated everything on the radio to be an edgy contrarian I would agree with you.
But then I learned lots of cool rad dudes, not just buttrock merchants use them. Ibanez SZ, Early LTDs and Schec, EVERYONE wanted that carved top pie.

Also I learned to appreciate how just absolutely batshit nerdy and committed to improvement PRS himself is.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Aug 13, 2021)

For me PRS is in no way overhyped. Maybe a little over expensive if anything but their guitars are all on point. 

On a side note I wish more guitar builders would use a 25 inch scale. It's absolutely perfect for me.


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## Sermo Lupi (Aug 13, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guys like Parker, Matsuda, Toone, etc. know they exist in a niche, and a lot of that pricing is based around the idea that they're servicing maybe a dozen or so clients a year, so a lot of the pricing has that output in mind. If these guys are only building a handful of unique pieces a year, the price needs to be high. They don't care if what they're making isn't accessible because it would never work at scale.
> 
> The fact that djentkids wanted Toones was a complete fluke.



Fluke probably isn't quite accurate. Unless you mean the djentkids were oil for the machine. Rick's first "endorsees" were just regular customers whose ergonomic needs could be used to showcase healthful benefits of his guitars. That was back when he was offering a tailor-made instrument service where every design was unique. Bad back? Tendonitis? Woman with a small frame? Made-to-measure is the solution.

Tosin came into the picture a few years later when Rick was looking for more widespread exposure. I'd have to guess he discovered there was more interest from players looking to remove limitations from traditional instruments rather than from those with ailing bodies. Tosin fit the bill for catering to that crowd as he was a guitarist playing technical, cutting edge music. Testimonials from Steve Blucher and Thomas Nordegg added fuel to that fire, since they could lend credence to the sonic side of things. 

Look no further than Steve Sjuggerud's frequent affiliation with Rick Toone's guitars in recent years to see how that endorsement strategy has continued to evolve. Rick's been very calculated about it--not that I mean to imply that's a bad thing.

Yet insofar as its not a fluke, I think Rick put quite a lot of thought into where he can reliably source those dozen or so clients a year you refer to.


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## profwoot (Aug 13, 2021)

Responding to a couple topics:

My #1 is a Mayones Regius Core Gothic 6 with Juggs and I don't see how it could ever be topped. Very comfy, sounds great for chugs, great for leads, great for cleans. Sure I paid almost 3k for it but it turned out to be worth every penny. It has a matte finish so I perhaps I got lucky if their gloss finishes are all sticky. Interestingly, my #2 is a Jackson USA Misha sig 7, so the same pickups as my #1, yet it doesn't sound nearly as good. It's also not nearly as comfy. I dig the juggernaut body shape but it just doesn't seem to hang as well for me.

Regarding headless guitars, it's a shame so many people can't get over how it looks, because near as I can tell it's functionally better in every way -- no neck dive, no strings to ring behind the nut or pull out of tune, no needless extra weight. I play with a strap and often end up twiddling knobs in my DAW or whatever while still wearing my guitar so every g matters, and my headless bass is literally lighter than all of my normal guitars. My next purchase will definitely be a headless 7.


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## budda (Aug 13, 2021)

Jazzmasters dont have neck dive either .

With headless, you cant get that awesome screech of raking the strings past the nut under distortion, so that's a (niche) L.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Aug 13, 2021)

I always see people dropping so much money on USA Jacksons and I do admit the 90s examples I've played have been great, but the Japanese ones are also great and if you can track one down are as good as any USA imo 

I was really sad I couldn't find a Rhoads with the configuration I wanted and lo and behold I found my disgusting Hondo which is everything I would've ordered from Jackson, for literally 5% of the price. It actually plays and holds tune as well as the Japanese Jackson and my Ibanez prestige I had. It looks like HELL up close and it probably had electronics just transplanted from a strat copy in the same factory but I don't give a fuck, it feels great and I can hammer on the Kahler for hours before it gets really out of tune on one string. I'm gonna rewire it and add some quality of life parts and I'll end up spending less on it with all customized parts and every feature I like than on a USED Japanese Jackson without most of what I want filled. 

I gotta post a thread for the thing but I've got it 0acked up to move right now and I've been playing my Avenger currently since I love drop C atm


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## DiezelMonster (Aug 13, 2021)

What you said @MaxOfMetal 

What is overhyped are the people who just want to hate on Gibson it's so boring and predictable.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I feel like folks who say this just don't keep up with the brands and only think of the reissue/VOS stuff vs. the whole product catalog.
> 
> Not to mention in Fender's case, they tend to offer certain, more contemporary specs through sub-brands.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ross82 (Aug 14, 2021)

Solomon Monagle said:


> Nice man! always cool to have a discussion about this stuff, I appreciate your reply  I've got a 2020 Regius Gothic 6 - it's a bloody sick guitar, and maybe I got lucky out of the box, but my 2009 Horizon is equal to it. the neck thing is entirely subjective, I just find the Regius neck slightly too wide from side to side for my hands, so I get a little more strain from it.
> 
> What mayo do you play? Also I do still need to add a Regius Core to my arsenal haha, the extra carve on top makes a world of difference so perhaps it's an unfair comparison between the flattop Regius and carved Horizon.
> 
> as for BKP, I had some Blackhawks, Warpigs (C) and Nailbombs. I liked the Blackhawks the least, then the Nailbombs. the warpigs were pretty cool, but I've basically uniformly swapped them out for an SD Nazgul/Sentient set in the respective guitars, which is my go to set.



I have a Regius 7 Core V24 with Lundgren M7's, fantastic guitar and plays very well. I have an E-II ST-1 which is no where near the same level as either the Mayones or my Caparison. It had a neck pocket too deep to the point that the Floyd sat so low in the trem cavity it couldn't be properly intonated as the saddles would hit the end of the pickguard. A shim fixed it just fine but the fact it left factory like that amazed me, that and the fact that there's over spray on some frets. Admittedly it's the first E-II I've had but since they're supposed to be exactly the same as previous ESP line I was quite surprised. I had late 90's and early 2000's ESP's that were complete workhorses though and I couldn't fault them, I curse the day I sold them but that's life.

BKP I have are Nailbombs in the Caparison which really work well in that guitar. They were the first BKP I ever played and I was pleasantly surprised since I was sure I'd be doing an EMG drop in, but they're articulate and punchy enough that I dont see the need. The only thing I dont care for in them is split coil tones but I'm really not a fan of that in any pickup. The other set I have are Rebel Yells in a PRS Singlecut and they are superb for rock/blues tones, especially the neck position.

I've had Sentient/Nasgul on my "to try" list for a while now, everything I've heard from them sounds like they fit my pallet so I may well look for a guitar with them for my next acquisition. Maybe a Duvell Elite but I'm also eyeing up Aviators and Skeversen's so we'll see. I'm also very curious to try an ESP USA with the configurator thing but they really dont have much variation within a model for me, you cant take out the inlays, change the headstock etc. so it would have to be a full Custom Shop ESP which I can only imagine would cost a fucking fortune and take a long time to build. I may be wrong but I seem to recall hearing that they're in a 18 month turnaround or something like that.


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## TheBlackBard (Aug 14, 2021)

budda said:


> Jazzmasters dont have neck dive either .
> 
> With headless, you cant get that awesome screech of raking the strings past the nut under distortion, so that's a (niche) L.




This. I actually like doing that.


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## Solomon Monagle (Aug 15, 2021)

nightlight said:


> I've owned two Mayones - one a Regius 6, one a Regius Core 7.
> 
> I got to say, I agree to a certain extent. The Regius was a great sounding guitar and played very well, but the Schaller Hannes bridge on it had been set up incorrectly, imho, to the point where the low E string would make this horrible "bong" sound if you every picked it without palm muting. Drove me crazy.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your insights mate, always good to hear from people 


Ross82 said:


> I have a Regius 7 Core V24 with Lundgren M7's, fantastic guitar and plays very well. I have an E-II ST-1 which is no where near the same level as either the Mayones or my Caparison. It had a neck pocket too deep to the point that the Floyd sat so low in the trem cavity it couldn't be properly intonated as the saddles would hit the end of the pickguard. A shim fixed it just fine but the fact it left factory like that amazed me, that and the fact that there's over spray on some frets. Admittedly it's the first E-II I've had but since they're supposed to be exactly the same as previous ESP line I was quite surprised. I had late 90's and early 2000's ESP's that were complete workhorses though and I couldn't fault them, I curse the day I sold them but that's life.
> 
> BKP I have are Nailbombs in the Caparison which really work well in that guitar. They were the first BKP I ever played and I was pleasantly surprised since I was sure I'd be doing an EMG drop in, but they're articulate and punchy enough that I dont see the need. The only thing I dont care for in them is split coil tones but I'm really not a fan of that in any pickup. The other set I have are Rebel Yells in a PRS Singlecut and they are superb for rock/blues tones, especially the neck position.
> 
> I've had Sentient/Nasgul on my "to try" list for a while now, everything I've heard from them sounds like they fit my pallet so I may well look for a guitar with them for my next acquisition. Maybe a Duvell Elite but I'm also eyeing up Aviators and Skeversen's so we'll see. I'm also very curious to try an ESP USA with the configurator thing but they really dont have much variation within a model for me, you cant take out the inlays, change the headstock etc. so it would have to be a full Custom Shop ESP which I can only imagine would cost a fucking fortune and take a long time to build. I may be wrong but I seem to recall hearing that they're in a 18 month turnaround or something like that.



Nice as, I've been meaning to get onto some Lundgren's for a while, am contemplating swapping the Nazgul/Sentient out of my Regius for them. Interesting about the E-II, although it doesn't altogether shock me - despite supposedly being the same line, as soon as ESP took their name off the headstock, the quality was always going to drop - not on every guitar, but there are more errors consistently on E-II's. I've got a couple of late 2000's Horizons and they're what I'm comparing the Regius to, they're absolute machines. 

Nailbombs sound great, what woods are the Capa? 

The Sentient/Nazgul set are great, but imo work better in a darker guitar. The mid-bump works really well in mahogany, but I find they combine to be a little bit much in something brighter like swamp ash (hence considering swapping them out of the Regius.) The chugs on the Nazgul are sick, grindy and guttural low mids really shine there. And hahaha I know the pain, eyeing off an ESP Custom is so tempting but pricey and testing waiting that long.


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## Ross82 (Aug 15, 2021)

Solomon Monagle said:


> Thanks for your insights mate, always good to hear from people
> 
> 
> Nice as, I've been meaning to get onto some Lundgren's for a while, am contemplating swapping the Nazgul/Sentient out of my Regius for them. Interesting about the E-II, although it doesn't altogether shock me - despite supposedly being the same line, as soon as ESP took their name off the headstock, the quality was always going to drop - not on every guitar, but there are more errors consistently on E-II's. I've got a couple of late 2000's Horizons and they're what I'm comparing the Regius to, they're absolute machines.
> ...



The Caparison is Mahogany body, one piece Maple neck with Ebony board. I had the same guitar back around 2004/2005 with EMG's and I absolutely loved it, I saw this one pop up on the 'Verb and jumped straight on it. There's a couple of FX Dellingers and Horus that I have my eye on too, I pretty much never use a trem despite half my guitars having floating trems that I have blocked except for the E-II, so my next one is going to be a Hipshot fixed for sure, just so much easier to maintain.

The Lundgren's were very impressive too, first time playing them and I was again pleasantly surprised. Interestingly the neck pickup on clean is very sweet. That guitar is tuned to G and on high gain it never gets too muddy or incoherent.


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## Solomon Monagle (Aug 15, 2021)

Ross82 said:


> The Caparison is Mahogany body, one piece Maple neck with Ebony board. I had the same guitar back around 2004/2005 with EMG's and I absolutely loved it, I saw this one pop up on the 'Verb and jumped straight on it. There's a couple of FX Dellingers and Horus that I have my eye on too, I pretty much never use a trem despite half my guitars having floating trems that I have blocked except for the E-II, so my next one is going to be a Hipshot fixed for sure, just so much easier to maintain.
> 
> The Lundgren's were very impressive too, first time playing them and I was again pleasantly surprised. Interestingly the neck pickup on clean is very sweet. That guitar is tuned to G and on high gain it never gets too muddy or incoherent.



Sounds great, mahogany-maple-ebony is a tried and true classic for a reason. There's some decent deals around atm on a couple of Caparisons for sure, I'm not entirely sure of the Ash-Maple half and half body but it can't hurt to try.

That's really good to hear, all I really look for in a neck is a half decent clean tone so will definitely add them to the shopping list.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Aug 17, 2021)

Pat said:


> Not a particular brand, but I don't understand people who feel they _need _certain things otherwise they can't play the guitar - scale length, fanned frets, evertunes etc. Most of the best songs ever written, in all genres, were played on guitars with more 'traditional' specs.


Lots of this shit isn't mentioned outside of gear forums..and let's be honest. Gear forums are often full of people who demand certain specs and super specific things, just so they can play in their bedrooms and do nothing that'll be heard by anyone.

People just like to word-jerk about gear on forums. It always amazes me how lots of great musicians aren't that picky and some don't know shit about gear..


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## John (Aug 17, 2021)

Pat said:


> Not a particular brand, but I don't understand people who feel they _need _certain things



Not so much in terms of a specific need. But seeing how pricey guitars can be and how fast it adds up at times, I can understand how others would be adamant with certain preferences over others. I mean, why burn that much money if you're only partially satisfied vs completely satisfied. This goes for certain specs, aesthetics including shapes, among a variety of other things.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Lots of this shit isn't mentioned outside of gear forums..and let's be honest. Gear forums are often full of people who demand certain specs and super specific things, just so they can play in their bedrooms and do nothing that'll be heard by anyone.
> 
> People just like to word-jerk about gear on forums. It always amazes me how lots of great musicians aren't that picky and some don't know shit about gear..



Preach.


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## narad (Aug 17, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Lots of this shit isn't mentioned outside of gear forums..and let's be honest. Gear forums are often full of people who demand certain specs and super specific things, just so they can play in their bedrooms and do nothing that'll be heard by anyone.
> 
> People just like to word-jerk about gear on forums. It always amazes me how lots of great musicians aren't that picky and some don't know shit about gear..



It's not surprising. It's the difference between a tool and a hobby. It's like on gun forums, everyone's like an overweight guy who would have trouble flagging down an ice cream truck, let alone survive in real combat. But they're talking about gun specs, trigger discipline, and situational awareness like these are important concepts in everyday life as an accountant or hvac technician. It's not really any different here.

But it's fun. And I believe I was told by a trustworthy source here to just have fun with it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Aug 17, 2021)

narad said:


> It's not surprising. It's the difference between a tool and a hobby. It's like on gun forums, everyone's like an overweight guy who would have trouble flagging down an ice cream truck, let alone survive in real combat. But they're talking about gun specs, trigger discipline, and situational awareness like these are important concepts in everyday life as an accountant or hvac technician. It's not really any different here.
> 
> But it's fun. And I believe I was told by a trustworthy source here to just have fun with it.



That's the thing. Just have fun. That's the goal. That and, don't take it so seriously because no one is gonna care other than you


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 17, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Lots of this shit isn't mentioned outside of gear forums..and let's be honest. Gear forums are often full of people who demand certain specs and super specific things, just so they can play in their bedrooms and do nothing that'll be heard by anyone.
> 
> People just like to word-jerk about gear on forums. It always amazes me how lots of great musicians aren't that picky and some don't know shit about gear..



I agree 100% here, I also find that a lot of what I’d consider the ‘best’ work that musicians do is often done with the gear they have before they got too deep into endorsement deals and signature models.


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## michael_bolton (Aug 17, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Lots of this shit isn't mentioned outside of gear forums..and let's be honest. .....



yup. there's a line in there somewhere, at some point gear in an of itself becomes a hobby more important than what the gear is for to begin with. 

guitar specs, "toanz", recording equipment etc becomes more important than actually playing let alone performing. 
not that there's anything wrong with it


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## BornToLooze (Aug 18, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I agree 100% here, I also find that a lot of what I’d consider the ‘best’ work that musicians do is often done with the gear they have before they got too deep into endorsement deals and signature models.



That's how I wound up figuring out my own style. Despite the tutorial, there is more that goes into whammying without a whammy bar than just bending a note.


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## Thrav (Aug 19, 2021)

So in this thread, I learned practically every custom shop guitar brand is over rated and unnecessary repeating of Gibsons being so too. (not news to anyone guys lol) 

I came to decide on where to place an order on another 8 string. At first I was thinking of waiting for Abasi concepts to drop another batch but the criticisms seem pretty hard to deny, mixed with the fact they are certainly over priced. I have a Strandberg metal 8 and really enjoy it, although my other extended is a Dave Davidson’s Jackson war 7, so I suppose I don’t have much to go off of, but have been playing for 10+ years to know basic problems when they arise. I’m not expert but I can hardly find much wrong with my strand in terms of quality, At least in terms of how it sounds and plays. The neck is totally subjective. I would routinely get thumb pain from any neck profile you could think of, but the endur fixed that immediately, pressure is practically not existent. So when people say it’s bs, come on now, it’s def not total bs. The multi scale length is very comfortable and the cutaway is perfect for someone with largish hands with a small ass pinky. No fret chattering, even from on the F, no dead spots a and sits comfortably. On the other hand, the input jack location is awful for classical positioning and the tuners, while looked awesome at first, are annoying to tune with. Very rigid and hard/painful to grip. 

I mean I’m at least grateful I orders a 060s from Aristides since I haven’t seen practically any complaints. I personally just want to avoid Kiesel if possible as 1. the owner is a complete tool it seems. 2. their custom builder is horrid, I really don’t want to spend 2+ Gs on something that has so many options without being able to at least see a concept of what it would look like. I have a hard time picturing the 20 options being thrown together and wish they had something like ormsbys builder. 3. I absolutely do not like their pickups. 


Guess it’s just roll the dice at this point.


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## JDinSC (Aug 23, 2021)

Not a fan of the 5-10k beat to shit relic craze. Want a relic that absolutely rips and is authentic to a Fender that's been drug behind a truck? Grab a Nash or build a partscaster. Maybe it's just my gripe because I see a guitar I want and the fucking thing costs as much as my car and I can spec it out with Nash or MJT and parts for a fraction of the cost.

Maybe I'm just poor. Meh.


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## odibrom (Aug 23, 2021)

... I just think that...



... sorry, I had to...


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## Flappydoodle (Sep 2, 2021)

BenSolace said:


> Perhaps when the honeymoon period wears off they realise that they spent crazy money on basically a superstrat made from not wood. I've never tried one but I can't see myself spending over £2k on a guitar, and in that case it would need to be 100% to my specs.
> 
> Just spec'd one out for fun, would cost me over €4500 estimated...
> 
> Possibly the same with BlackMachine - when people realise they can get several thousands for them they probably realise that they can buy several guitars (or amps) in its place. Or, like, take a holiday or buy a car



Aristides deserve the hype 100% IMO

The build quality is incredible. Consistency is REALLY good. I don't think I've ever heard about a lemon. The service is also excellent. Their build schedules are super accurate. And they do sound incredible - whether that's the arium, or the single piece construction, or what. I heard other people talk about the Aristides being a "platform" for pickups - so you put BKPs in it and they sound like BKPs, same for EMG or Fishman. You get a very true representation of the pickup, which absolutely isn't true for many other guitars.



possumkiller said:


> Les Pauls.
> 
> Heavy af, thick, blocky, fat, cumbersome, fatass neck, wide nut, shit tuners, shit jack plate. A scale so short that you can't tune down below B. Shitty headstock design. They literally just said, "let's just scale down an archtop body slightly, make it solid, and call it a fucking day" (Ted McCarty, 1952).



It's all correct. But they sound GODLIKE.

You get a LP with the stock Gibson pickups and you can do basically anything with it, from jazz, blues, country, rock to metal.

And a LP with EMGs was the platform for god knows how many epic metal albums over the years

You also need to shop around for a good one. I went to a massive store and played about 20. I found one which just "spoke" to me. It sounded like a beast and played effortlessly - it ended up being a studio 50's tribute model. Half the price of the standards and traditionals, but it sounded better. Upgraded the tuners, and later upgraded the nut. May put a GraphTech bridge on it at some point. It's still one of my best guitars, hanging alongside Caparison, ESP, Aristides etc.


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## CanserDYI (Sep 2, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> Aristides deserve the hype 100% IMO
> 
> The build quality is incredible. Consistency is REALLY good. I don't think I've ever heard about a lemon. The service is also excellent. Their build schedules are super accurate. And they do sound incredible - whether that's the arium, or the single piece construction, or what. I heard other people talk about the Aristides being a "platform" for pickups - so you put BKPs in it and they sound like BKPs, same for EMG or Fishman. You get a very true representation of the pickup, which absolutely isn't true for many other guitars.
> 
> ...


IMHO a company where you have to sort through 20 of them to find the good one isn't a good guitar company, just a good guitar that you found.


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## bostjan (Sep 2, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> IMHO a company where you have to sort through 20 of them to find the good one isn't a good guitar company, just a good guitar that you found.


 I could try 20 guitars from almost any shitty brand and find at least one good one.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 2, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> IMHO a company where you have to sort through 20 of them to find the good one isn't a good guitar company, just a good guitar that you found.



It's less about finding a "good" one (since the move to PLEK the fretwork has been beyond reproach) and more about finding one that really speaks to you. A lot of the Gibson process is still done by hand, so there's variation in finish, weight, neck shape, etc. so if have a chance to work through a bunch of them you'll find some you like better than others. Is that ideal? I don't know. But it works. 

The same can be said for a lot of brands: Fender, PRS, ESP, Ibanez, etc. As much as guitarists think they're extruded whole by a CNC mill, they're still all made of naturally varying materials, worked on and assembled by human beings.


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## odibrom (Sep 2, 2021)

... and a guitar is just as good as its setup is the right one for the musician playing it...


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## spudmunkey (Sep 2, 2021)

A valid point. I was selling a guitar once, and took it in for a setup from someone much more experienced than I. Once I got it back, I was like, "Oh...wait..._do_ I want to sell this?"


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## CanserDYI (Sep 2, 2021)

I agree for the most part Max, that its about finding the one that speaks to you, but with my experience with PRS, Fender USA, Gibson Non custom shop, Suhr, Kiesel/Carvin, and a few other USA brands in this same "league", Gibson is the one I can consistently find the most errors and issues with, Fender being a close second. Never touched a bad PRS core line (i'm sure there are some shit ones) and never touched a bad Suhr. I've OWNED multiple dogs from Gibson, played hundreds and really never been impressed outside of their custom shop models which I laughed out the door at the price tag.

I know its popular to be a Gibson hater these days, but they honestly deserve the crap out of it. Zero zero zero innovation, horrible PR, and I'm convinced they're one of the culprits behind keeping most of our members of our subculture in metaphorical dark ages.


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 2, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> I agree for the most part Max, that its about finding the one that speaks to you, but with my experience with PRS, Fender USA, Gibson Non custom shop, Suhr, Kiesel/Carvin, and a few other USA brands in this same "league", Gibson is the one I can consistently find the most errors and issues with, Fender being a close second. Never touched a bad PRS core line (i'm sure there are some shit ones) and never touched a bad Suhr. I've OWNED multiple dogs from Gibson, played hundreds and really never been impressed outside of their custom shop models which I laughed out the door at the price tag.
> 
> I know its popular to be a Gibson hater these days, but they honestly deserve the crap out of it. Zero zero zero innovation, horrible PR, and I'm convinced they're one of the culprits behind keeping most of our members of our subculture in metaphorical dark ages.



By your measure businesses like PRS/Suhr/Tom Anderson also haven't innovated equally/less so than Gibson.

No one can literally substantiate this opinion and it keeps bouncing on the walls and repeated unchallenged. I'm not a Gibson fan at all either, I exclusively play double cuts other than Telecasters. But this assertion that they produce the same shit year after year is something you can accuse nearly every other guitar brand of doing. They have a 20% market share of all guitar sales, the design is undeniably iconic and it's recognizeable across generations. As far as I'm concerned they would effectively be doing worse as a business if they were putting out a poplar burl headless attempt, instead of producing their more iconic mainstays.

But what has PRS innovated on? The 513 and 305 never stuck or got popular, layering brass on string contact points on the bridge saddles? If you're going to make the argument that there have not been examples on Gibson's side to try new things then that's verifiably false. Even brands that front facing innovate barely get any reception in this camp and other more progressive discussion boards. 

I can take criticisms of their current business model, but holy shit what is the incessant hate boner for Gibson? The Mark Agnesi is a dumbass, but he's also new to the brand and hating Gibson isn't a brand new take. It's just funny that this camp is the one saying the top brands don't innovate, but they essentially never look at a Strat until they start hearing a few neo-soul clips on instagram that catch their ears and barely explore Strats and just default to an Ibanez AZ 

What was the adoption rate of the Fender Deluxe Strat Plus? That was one of Fender's coolest ideas, and I'm pretty sure I saw a few passing comments when the NAMM videos dropped. How about we just accept that the reality is people have this unrealistic expectation of innovation, when the ones with the capital arguably try quite a few new ideas regularly and no one pays attention.

Yet we'll just applaud Ibanez for basically creating a strat with a roasted maple neck more affordable to the general public pretty late into the trend?


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## CanserDYI (Sep 2, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> By your measure businesses like PRS/Suhr/Tom Anderson also haven't innovated equally/less so than Gibson.
> 
> No one can literally substantiate this opinion and it keeps bouncing on the walls and repeated unchallenged. I'm not a Gibson fan at all either, I exclusively play double cuts other than Telecasters. But this assertion that they produce the same shit year after year is something you can accuse nearly every other guitar brand of doing. They have a 20% market share of all guitar sales, the design is undeniably iconic and it's recognizeable across generations. As far as I'm concerned they would effectively be doing worse as a business if they were putting out a poplar burl headless attempt, instead of producing their more iconic mainstays.
> 
> ...


Ill go ahead and concede the fact that most of those others that I mentioned are not innovative as well, but all much better values and actually at least close to their worth, in MY opinion. Never picked up a gibson I didnt laugh at the price tag at.


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 2, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Ill go ahead and concede the fact that most of those others that I mentioned are not innovative as well, but all much better values and actually at least close to their worth, in MY opinion. Never picked up a gibson I didnt laugh at the price tag at.



Right their price tags are pretty ridiculous, but a lot of guitar brands are priced out of my mental range of reasonable spending. I don't feel like that's a proper slight towards Gibson, I haven't played a poorly built Gibson in recent years and I always give them a go especially with how much change they've experienced.

I don't know where people are finding these 2019/2020/2021 Gibsons that are literally falling apart untouched or with dozens of defects.


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## budda (Sep 2, 2021)

JDinSC said:


> Not a fan of the 5-10k beat to shit relic craze. Want a relic that absolutely rips and is authentic to a Fender that's been drug behind a truck? Grab a Nash or build a partscaster. Maybe it's just my gripe because I see a guitar I want and the fucking thing costs as much as my car and I can spec it out with Nash or MJT and parts for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> Maybe I'm just poor. Meh.



Sure you can build a partscaster, but that isn't guaranteeing you a great guitar at all, just a more affordable version of the same thing. I say that holding one with two more on a rack. It's like anything else high end - you're paying for the name, expertise and expectation that the best parts are being used.


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## CanserDYI (Sep 2, 2021)

Honestly, I'm the one who actually used to hate relics, now when done well, and not over the top, it actually provides a level of comfort that I've learned to enjoy. Not worried about beating it up, not worried about getting it dirty or leaving fingerprints, and best part of all, if you sell it, they can't tell who made the ding anyways. 

Now paying 4 times what a strat should cost to have it a custom shop relic? That's just....well....i suppose you can do whatever you want with your money, but in my opinion foolish. But relicing in my book is fine with me, if done correctly and not corksniffing the air around it.

The other time I like it is when its done to replicate a famous guitar... thats cool to me, but purely from an aesthetic, super geek, point of view.


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## StevenC (Sep 2, 2021)

Things Gibson invented or popularised:

Pointy guitars
Self tuning guitars
Neck through guitars
Set neck solid body quitars
Humbuckers
P90s
Mini humbuckers
Tune o matic bridges
Things Gibson has also done but didn't catch on:

Built in effects
Digital interfaces
Hexaphonic pickups
Hot swappable pickups
The Alex Lifeson Axcess
Wood substitutes
I don't be this "not innovative" narrative. Maybe some innovations didn't catch on, but objectively the guitar industry hasn't moved much in the last 60 years and most other innovations are very niche.

The only popular innovation I can think of is the Floyd Rose.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Sep 2, 2021)

Gibson do so much batshit stuff every year. I have to agree that people who think they never innovate are looking in the wrong places. 

There are certainly a few "classic features" that kill a lot of Gibsons for me, but the trash talk their guitars get is no longer warranted imo. 

As other users have said, its been a while since I played a shoddily made new Gibson.


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## StevenC (Sep 2, 2021)

I suppose pickup switching systems have gotten more advanced and that's a fairly popular thing now. But let's just ignore the ES-355 and the Page LPC.

Oh, they also invented the semihollow electric. And they've been doing weight relief on LPs for decades. They've made 7 string versions of all their most popular shapes and even a 27" LP.

Gibson needs to bring back guitar of the month. I used to always look forward to it because they always had something cool and unique.


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## SCJR (Sep 2, 2021)

Anything with a headstock?


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## jayarpeggios (Sep 2, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Headless. God they look ugly as fuck. Fanned fret too. How the hell do you fret a barre chord on the first fret?



You and I might be opposites. I avoided multiscale and headless guitars for a while, other than a rick toone I tried back in eh 2015 maybe (one of Tosin's, don't think it was Blur). But after getting two (with a third on the way) headless+multi guitars I don't think I want to go back to headed (ha) guitars or non-multi again. The two where a Boden 8 original, and a Prog 6 NT. After dozens and dozens of guitars over the years, these are the first two guitars I've truly and fully loved. The third on it's way is an Aristides headless 8, no idea if I will like it haven't played one yet.


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## bigswifty (Sep 4, 2021)

jayarpeggios said:


> You and I might be opposites. I avoided multiscale and headless guitars for a while, other than a rick toone I tried back in eh 2015 maybe (one of Tosin's, don't think it was Blur). But after getting two (with a third on the way) headless+multi guitars I don't think I want to go back to headed (ha) guitars or non-multi again. The two where a Boden 8 original, and a Prog 6 NT. After dozens and dozens of guitars over the years, these are the first two guitars I've truly and fully loved. The third on it's way is an Aristides headless 8, no idea if I will like it haven't played one yet.



Oh man.. I'm willing to bet you will LOVE the Tiddies 8! I absolutely love mine.


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