# Triton substitution



## shayla (Sep 25, 2009)

Ooookee... so for school my guitar teacher has asked me to do some sweep arpeggios (I'd like to do just the chords as well though) using tritone substitution. The first progression is a ii, V, tritone sub, I in Bbmaj. The second is IV, vii, tritone sub, I in Amaj. Now here's what I'm having trouble with, should I turn them ALL into 7th chords when I sweep them? And the second progression... he's referring to the tritone sub of the vii chord yes? Or is it the V still do you think? Thaaaaaank you!


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## Keytarist (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't know if it's me, but I can't understand too much the nomenclature you're using. I guess the first progression should be:
|C-7 | B7 (#11) | BbMaj7
Second one:
|DMaj7 | G7 (#11) | AMaj7 
(I'm not sure about this, because you said vii and not bvii) In this case, it is like a II | V going to CMaj7, but the resolution is on AMaj7. Is like an interrupted cadence, so the dominant chord has the #11 of the lydian flat 7. Is very common to use this mode on tritone substitution chords and non-modulating dominants.
And yes, use the four notes of the 7th chords for your arpeggios.

P.D.lease correct if the info is wrong.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 26, 2009)

Keytarist said:


> Second one:
> |DMaj7 | G7 (#11) | AMaj7


That should be DMaj7 Bb7 AMaj7



Yes, make them seventh chords when sweeping.




When dealing with tritone substitutions, this is what's going on: the tritone in the chord is spelled enharmonically, which either facilitates a modulation, or, more commonly (especially in jazz), chromatic root movement. An example of a tritone substitution of a dominant chord would look like this:
&#8226; G7 - G B D F
&#8226; The tritone is between B and F, a diminished fifth.
&#8226; We can spell it enharmonically as an augmented fourth, Cb and F.
&#8226; If we build a dominant chord around this tritone, we get Db7, spelled Db F Ab Cb.


With diminished chords, it's a bit different.
Consider G#°7: G# B D F
There are two tritones, G# and D, and B and F, both diminished fifths. If we spell them as augmented fourths, we get Ab and D, and Cb and F. Stacking those in thirds gives you D°7, spelled D F Ab Cb, which is just an enharmonic spelling for G#°7. Thus, to create the sonority of a tritone substitution, we have to base the substitution off of the dominant chord, which, in A, is E7. You can also find the appropriate dominant chord by going down a major third from the root of the diminished chord.

&#8226; E7: E G# B D
&#8226; Tritone between G# and D (diminished fifth)
&#8226; Respell as Ab and D (augmented fourth)
&#8226; Build chord around tritone (Bb D F Ab)

The much less heady way to think of tritone subs is that the root of the substitution is a minor second above the tonic chord, making it essentially a bII7. Yet another way to consider it, the chord is built from a root that lies a tritone away from the root of the V chord.


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## shayla (Sep 26, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> That should be DMaj7 Bb7 AMaj7
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ohhh... I've never really done 7th chords with sweeping... at all!! This will be such a challenge. So in the second progression still base my tritone sub off of the dominant... wow... you are AMAZING! I can now... start working my ass off with this stuff!! thank you THAAAAANK YOU!


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## Keytarist (Sep 26, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> That should be DMaj7 Bb7 AMaj7


I believe that the progression |DMaj7 |G7(#11) |AMaj7 | is much more common. Check 'Stella by Starlight', page 408 of Real Book 5th edition. Bars 7 to 9...is the same progression but in Bb Major. |EbMaj7 |Ab7 |BbMaj7 |
Also, notice that the progression 

|IVMaj7 |bII7 |IMaj7 | (or |DMaj7 |Bb7 |AMaj7 )

is pretty much like playing a standard 

|IIm7 |bII7 |IMaj7 |,

because the IIm7 is a diatonic substitution for the IVMaj7...you could even play the same phrase and it would fit perfectly. The OP has to sweep |IIm7 |bII7 |IMaj7 | already on BbMayor, so why sweeping it again on AMayor?.


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## shayla (Sep 26, 2009)

I just realized I forgot the e at the end of tritone when I made this thread!!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 26, 2009)

> |DMaj7 |G7(#11) |AMaj7|


G7 is the bVII7 chord in the parallel minor of A. The tritone between B and F wants to resolve to C and E, respectively, while G wants to go to C, and D wants to go to C, as well. I suppose that the G could go to A, and D could leap up to A, but then it will sound like II V7 VI in the key of C.

The whole reason a tritone substitution is called a tritone substitution is because the resulting chord contains the same tritone as the one it's substituting, and the root of the chord is a tritone away.

The V7 chord in A is E7. The tritone is between G# and D. A chord with its root a tritone away from E7 can be Bb7, A#7, or any other enharmonic spelling of those chords.
These are spelled Bb D F Ab and A# Cx E G#, respectively. The tritone of these chords is located between D and Ab, and Cx and G#, both of which are enharmonic to D and G#.

Check it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution


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## Keytarist (Sep 26, 2009)

Yes, indeed...the progression |IVMaj7 |bVII7 |IMaj7 | isn't a tritone substitution. It is more close to an interrupted cadence. I think is what the OP tried to say with 'IV, vii, tritone sub, I in Amaj'. The mode used over the bVII7 chord is 'lydian flat 7', same one as on a tritone substitution chord. 
I don't know which progression could be, then. But, this one seems close to the description, despite it doesn't have a tritone substitution.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 26, 2009)

You could play lydian b7 over a regular V7 chord, and it would work. It's about the harmony and root movement, not the melodic content.


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## Keytarist (Sep 26, 2009)

Dominant 7ths with no resolution over a first degree sometimes are taken as lydian b7, but in the progression |IVMaj7 |bVII7(#11) |IMaj7 |is almost always as lydian b7. That's why I add the sharp fourth; comping players will add the extensions belonging to this mode/scale most of the time, other modes such as mixolydian, altered scale, mixolydian b6, etc. just sound weird to my ears in that context IMO. 
I'm not too sure if I'm helping the OP, lets hope I'm not making a confusion.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 26, 2009)

Keytarist said:


> Dominant 7ths with no resolution over a first degree sometimes are taken as lydian b7, but in the progression |IVMaj7 |bVII7(#11) |IMaj7 |is almost always as lydian b7. That's why I add the sharp fourth; comping players will add the extensions belonging to this mode/scale most of the time, other modes such as mixolydian, altered scale, mixolydian b6, etc. just sound weird to my ears in that context IMO.
> I'm not too sure if I'm helping the OP, lets hope I'm not making a confusion.



I completely agree that a dominant 7 (#11) chord nearly always implies a lydian dominant scale. I'm just confused as to where you think the tritone substitution is. The interval between IV and bVII is a perfect fourth, between bVII and I is a major second. If bVII7(#11) is substituting for V7, then the roots are a minor third apart, and thus no tritone substitution.


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## Keytarist (Sep 26, 2009)

On one of my previous post (number #8), I said that the bVII7 chord is not a tritone substitution...I just added that progression to the discussion because I thought it was the one that the OP was asking. It doesn't have a tritone substitution...yes, but it involves a bVII degree and is common in jazz repertoire...and is often related to the tritone substitution because you use the same mode on the dominant chord (lydian b7).

This discussion wouldn't have taken so long if I could speak english well...sorry. But nice to know your point of view.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 26, 2009)

Keytarist said:


> On one of my previous post (number #8), I said that the bVII7 chord is not a tritone substitution...I just added that progression to the discussion because I thought it was the one that the OP was asking. It doesn't have a tritone substitution...yes, but it involves a bVII degree and is common in jazz repertoire...and is often related to the tritone substitution because you use the same mode on the dominant chord (lydian b7).
> 
> This discussion wouldn't have taken so long if I could speak english well...sorry. But nice to know your point of view.



Oops, my bad. Sorry, I should have read better.

I believe that the OP was asking for a tritone sub of the vii°7 chord.


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## shayla (Sep 27, 2009)

Keytarist said:


> I'm not too sure if I'm helping the OP, lets hope I'm not making a confusion.



Most guitar players I've come across are confusing people. Hahaha. Much too scatter brained!!



SchecterWhore said:


> Oops, my bad. Sorry, I should have read better.
> 
> I believe that the OP was asking for a tritone sub of the vii°7 chord.



And yeah... that's what I was wondering, it would still be a tritone sub would it not? You don't always have to sub the V chord do you? In this case the progression in Amaj, is Dmaj7,G#dim7,A#7 (the tritone sub of the V chord) and then Amaj7 (so that's IV, vii, the sub and then I.. yes yes?). But could you not replace the A#7 with a D7, making it a tritone substitution of the 7th chord? However, he did mention that if it was a figured bass (I've done some classical stuff... I dunno, have either of you done any classical stuff? Figured bass just gives you the bass note and writes underneath what the chord is basically in case you haven't) that the tritone sub would be the same as writing flat 2 and 7 sooo... hopefully I'm correct in assuming that he's wanting me to do it with the V7 chord! And reading what you've been posting has made me lean towards thinking that. So if I'm wrong it's not my fault...? Hahaha. I blame everyone but myself!!! thank you thank you.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 27, 2009)

shayla said:


> Most guitar players I've come across are confusing people. Hahaha. Much too scatter brained!!
> 
> 
> 
> And yeah... that's what I was wondering, it would still be a tritone sub would it not? You don't always have to sub the V chord do you? In this case the progression in Amaj, is Dmaj7,G#dim7,A#7 (the tritone sub of the V chord) and then Amaj7 (so that's IV, vii, the sub and then I.. yes yes?). But could you not replace the A#7 with a D7, making it a tritone substitution of the 7th chord? However, he did mention that if it was a figured bass (I've done some classical stuff... I dunno, have either of you done any classical stuff? Figured bass just gives you the bass note and writes underneath what the chord is basically in case you haven't) that the tritone sub would be the same as writing flat 2 and 7 sooo... hopefully I'm correct in assuming that he's wanting me to do it with the V7 chord! And reading what you've been posting has made me lean towards thinking that. So if I'm wrong it's not my fault...? Hahaha. I blame everyone but myself!!! thank you thank you.



You're right. Like I said, a tritone substitution of a diminished chord only yields an enharmonic spelling of the same diminished chord, so to make a proper tritone substitution off of a diminished chord, you have to consider what the V7 chord is that the diminished chord is a part of. For example, to make a tritone sub where B° is concerned, you would think of it as G7, and your resulting tritone sub would be Db7 or C#7.

In your example, this is what you should have:
|DMaj7|G#dim7|Bb7|AMaj7|
|IVM7|vii°7|bII7|IM7|
Notice I use Bb7 instead of A#7. This is so that it's easier to read on paper. We're more likely to interpret any kind of a B as a second. A# could be confusing, especially since it's being followed by an A chord.

If you replaced the substitution with a natural V, this is what it would be
|DMaj7|G#dim7|E7|AMaj7|
|IVM7|vii°7|V7|IM7|


I'm unsure of the figured bass for tritone subs, but bII7 (or whatever your inversion is) should suffice.


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## shayla (Sep 27, 2009)

So... should I be changing it then? Or leave it as a sub for the V7?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 28, 2009)

It should be bII7.


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