# Microtonal 9 string with Kahler trem bridge, microtonal 8 string



## ixlramp (Nov 1, 2010)

16EDO (equal divisions of the octave)







23EDO

Sword Guitars microtonal custom guitars and conversions.


----------



## JamesM (Nov 1, 2010)

I want to see/hear them played. Thank you.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2010)

Sword Guitars has the uncanny ability to make $3000+ guitars _look_ super cheap. I mean, I've seen novice home builds on here that look better. 

They certainly do some interesting work. I'd love to try out a micro-tonal guitar, let alone a 9-string one.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 1, 2010)

I'd love to have 19EDO and 22EDO axes.


----------



## ixlramp (Nov 1, 2010)

Ron Sword's 9 string in pre-Kahler form. Ron told me he usually tunes EADGCFADG.

Keep in mind that Ron currently builds guitars mostly for his own microtonal research. He's researching many EDOs from 13 to 41 and needs a guitar for each EDO, so perhaps that's why these look a little cheap and basic. A $3000 customer ordered custom guitar may be very different.


----------



## shadowsea (Nov 2, 2010)

Question, wtf mircotonal? i just see guitars with A LOT more frets, are we just talking about 36 or in some cases 36+ fret guitars, or does mircotonal mean something else all together?

EDIT: Video provides some cool scalar ideas, but tone sounds like utter balls...
then again, he is using the webcam on his mac. :/


----------



## Isan (Nov 2, 2010)

ixlramp said:


> Ron Sword's 9 string in pre-Kahler form. Ron told me he usually tunes EADGCFADG.
> 
> Keep in mind that Ron currently builds guitars mostly for his own microtonal research. He's researching many EDOs from 13 to 41 and needs a guitar for each EDO, so perhaps that's why these look a little cheap and basic. A $3000 customer ordered custom guitar may be very different.



holy fuck headache ... sounds SO BAD ... please don't play one like that ever ... EVER!


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 2, 2010)

shadowsea said:


> or does mircotonal mean something else all together?


Microtonal = it uses intervals that are smaller than a semitone, a semitone is the music space between an open note and the first fret or any note and the one immediately above or below it.

Or if you have a piano/keyboard you'd have "extra" note(s) *between* C and C# for instance.


----------



## Vinnydude (Nov 2, 2010)

Thats right kids.... Don't do drugs!!!

The meaning behind microtonal is ludicrous.

There isn't a note between C and C# because the harmonic frequencies clash, or in English this time, its just out of tune!!!

Self indulgence?


----------



## georg_f (Nov 2, 2010)

is this really microtonal or rather for certain arabian or indian music that requires a 16 notes per octave division?

to me the actual micro tonality is achieved when there are too many divisions by octave to count. So basically a fretless guitar would do it.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Nov 2, 2010)

M.A.N use microtonal 7 strings on their latest album, its weird how different they sound just by adding more frets.


----------



## Self Bias (Nov 2, 2010)

Lots of microtonal stuff used in blues/rock type of solos. You bend to places between half steps when you're trying to cop that vibe. Microtonal stuff is not all that uncommon.


----------



## bostjan (Nov 2, 2010)

Yeah, this guy has dozens of guitars, and they all look like they were made in a garage. I can say this because I used to make fretless necks that looked like this in my garage.



Vinnydude said:


> Thats right kids.... Don't do drugs!!!
> 
> The meaning behind microtonal is ludicrous.
> 
> ...



The notes on the guitar are severly out of tune, actually. There are a couple of consonant intervals that cannot even be represented in the current "standard" tuning, which is a compromise between having too many notes and actually being in tune, and not having enough notes for musical expression.

Try tuning your guitar to natural harmonics and check with a tuner to see what I mean. The idea that standard 12-EDO is perfectly in tune is what is ridiculous, not the idea that microtonal music may open up new possibilities of expression.



georg f said:


> is this really microtonal or rather for certain arabian or indian music that requires a 16 notes per octave division?
> 
> to me the actual micro tonality is achieved when there are too many divisions by octave to count. So basically a fretless guitar would do it.



There is some semantic confusion about the meaning of "microtonal." Many use the term simply to mean any tuning other than 12-EDO, although your definition seems to make more sense to me. Arabic music uses 24-EDO (and classically 17-EDO, and even 10 note/octave tunings pre-renaissance). 19-EDO is a good choice for European meantone music. Some of the more odd stuff like 14-EDO and 13-EDO can work like Indonesian gamelan music. The trouble with anything bigger than 34-EDO is that the frets become unplayable, by most accounts.

Tunings like 16-EDO tend to be considered microtonal just because they are experimental, and do not fit into any traditions.


----------



## Peteus (Nov 2, 2010)

ixlramp said:


> Ron Sword's 9 string in pre-Kahler form. Ron told me he usually tunes EADGCFADG.
> 
> Keep in mind that Ron currently builds guitars mostly for his own microtonal research. He's researching many EDOs from 13 to 41 and needs a guitar for each EDO, so perhaps that's why these look a little cheap and basic. A $3000 customer ordered custom guitar may be very different.




It is pretty interesting stuff however these scales sound terible to my ears! I guess it comes down to is it going to sound good, what M.A.N managed to do with it works well. I think I want to hear more people create good music with it before I consider playing around with it not people farting around with the oddest scale they have found


----------



## CONTEMPT (Nov 2, 2010)

....so someone's managed to build a guitar that just sounds out of tune all the time. congratulations.


----------



## Durero (Nov 2, 2010)

Very interesting sounds. Makes me want to hear more.


Sad to read the utter ignorance and cultural bias of posters saying it sounds "out of tune." Perhaps when you've lived your whole life in a 12EDO cultural bubble it may take more than a 3 minute video to open your ears to other tuning structures.


----------



## ittoa666 (Nov 2, 2010)

Vinnydude said:


> Thats right kids.... Don't do drugs!!!
> 
> The meaning behind microtonal is ludicrous.
> 
> ...



What sounds bad to you can sound great to someone else. It's all taste. Accept it.


----------



## ittoa666 (Nov 2, 2010)

Durero said:


> Very interesting sounds. Makes me want to hear more.
> 
> 
> Sad to read the utter ignorance and cultural bias of posters saying it sounds "out of tune." Perhaps when you've lived your whole life in a 12EDO cultural bubble it may take more than a 3 minute video to open your ears to other tuning structures.



It's like no one knows that these pitches and semitones are used in other areas outside of the us.


----------



## pink freud (Nov 2, 2010)

Here is an amazing concept for microtonal, or any guitar, really:


----------



## Mindcrime1204 (Nov 2, 2010)

I love the idea.

But I also think it sounds out of tune and uncomfortable to my ears.

EDIT: The guy in the video above my reply demonstrates better.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 2, 2010)

Vinnydude said:


> Thats right kids.... Don't do drugs!!!
> 
> The meaning behind microtonal is ludicrous.
> 
> ...


Keep going higher and higher in the harmonic series and you'll find all kinds of wacky intervals, also since most non-western cultures aren't anywhere near as concerned about harmony as we are these notes are likely to get used melodically, not playing a C and a C quarter sharp as a dyad.

I do know for certain that I'm big into really "out" sounding harmony and melody, just last week I was having a blast on my friend's acoustic playing it "upside down"-fretting notes and plucking between the fretted note and the nut.


----------



## bostjan (Nov 2, 2010)

It seems that the vast majority of microtonal guys posting on youtube and whatever-website tend to be all about demonstrating that they are microtonal. The best moments in music are when you aren't thinking about the tuning when you are listening to it.

I don't know a lot about Ron Sword, and he seems like he's very serious about microtonality; however, I have not seen any videos of him that made me drop my jaw. Also, it does seem pretty insane to build a guitar for each EDO, when there are so many nonequal octave tunings out there that work well for certain effects. Also, trying to take them all on at once seems a bit much to chew, to me.

That said, I find it very exciting that so many guitarists have gotten into micro-tuning over the last three years. In 2006, it seemed like you could count all of the microguitarists on your fingers. My interest in microtuning is pretty limited compared to many of the really "out" guys, like Ron Sword. I do have a 19-EDO guitar, which I love to play and I love the idea of it, and I have synth programs for 17 note/octave just tuning, 19-EDO, and 22-EDO, but that's my practical exposure.

I will say that it is more challenging to play micro-guitars, because there are more opprotunities to mess up and those mess-ups are typically impossible to roll with- I mean, if you are playing in 12-EDO/standard and you accidentally hit a M7 in a minor song, you can just roll with it and it sounds harmonic minor, or if you hit a b5, you can call it a tritone accidental, and if you repeat it, no one notices so much, but in 19-EDO, if you fudge a major 7 into an augmented seven, you might as well have pissed your pants, because there is no way to cover, and the only options for recovery are to look stupid.


----------



## xwmucradiox (Nov 2, 2010)

bostjan said:


> It seems that the vast majority of microtonal guys posting on youtube and whatever-website tend to be all about demonstrating that they are microtonal. The best moments in music are when you aren't thinking about the tuning when you are listening to it.
> 
> I don't know a lot about Ron Sword, and he seems like he's very serious about microtonality; however, I have not seen any videos of him that made me drop my jaw. Also, it does seem pretty insane to build a guitar for each EDO, when there are so many nonequal octave tunings out there that work well for certain effects. Also, trying to take them all on at once seems a bit much to chew, to me.
> 
> ...



I've only see one example of music with a microtonal instrument that wasn't someone playing a bunch of unpleasant sounding passages just to show the odd fret tones. It was a metal band and the guys usage of the guitar consisted of playing a bunch of slides that would have sounded basically the same on a standard guitar so even he wasn't really making solid use of the microtonal intervals. Basically, there was no real reason to use the instrument he had. 

Im waiting to hear someone play one in a band and really do something interesting. While these tunings may be used in lots of other cultures I have yet to see someone take one of these electric versions and play something worth listening to since they almost certainly aren't playing music from the culture that developed the tuning.


----------



## bostjan (Nov 2, 2010)

xwmucradiox said:


> I've only see one example of music with a microtonal instrument that wasn't someone playing a bunch of unpleasant sounding passages just to show the odd fret tones. It was a metal band and the guys usage of the guitar consisted of playing a bunch of slides that would have sounded basically the same on a standard guitar so even he wasn't really making solid use of the microtonal intervals. Basically, there was no real reason to use the instrument he had.
> 
> Im waiting to hear someone play one in a band and really do something interesting. While these tunings may be used in lots of other cultures I have yet to see someone take one of these electric versions and play something worth listening to since they almost certainly aren't playing music from the culture that developed the tuning.



I have sound clips on my soundclick account (Bostjan Zupancic), some of which are microtonal - Beezer's Cellar, Heavy 19, Funky 19, and the theme from the NES Beetlejuice game in 19-EDO. I also have some quick videos on youtube (bostjan64). I honestly do not think that they show the tuning's full potential, but I'm working on it.


----------



## vampiregenocide (Nov 2, 2010)

M.A.N, microtonal 7 strings.


----------



## ixlramp (Nov 2, 2010)

M.A.N. had a guitar and bass refretted with 24 frets in one octave instead of 12, so the octave becomes divided into 24 equal steps of pitch. 24EDO = 24 Equal Divisions of the Octave, otherwise known as the quartertone scale. 24EDO contains the conventional 12EDO, it is as if a standard guitar had extra frets added, one fret added in each gap between the original frets.



Vinnydude said:


> There isn't a note between C and C# because the harmonic frequencies clash



Actually the harmonic frequencies clash in our conventional system of 12 Tone Equal Temperament. The only intervals where the harmonics are in tune are are the Fourth and Fifth (2 cents out), the Second and minor Seventh are close at 4 cents out. That's 4 out of 11 not counting the Unison and Octave.

The system where the the harmonics are in tune is called 'Just Intonation', in fact the fundamentals are also in perfect harmony. Just Intonation divides the octave into unequal steps of pitch:






The tonal system of the modern 'Western' world is 12 Tone Equal Temperament (12TET) otherwise known as 12EDO. The octave is divided into 12 equal steps of pitch. This system has only been in use for the last 250 years. It was in fact theoretically derived in ancient China but was not used because it was considered out of tune.

12EDO is an abstract mathematical system that was adopted to allow classical composers to modulate between keys during a piece of music. In fact the result is that each key becomes equally out-of-tune.


----------



## Koshchei (Nov 2, 2010)

ixlramp said:


> Ron Sword's 9 string in pre-Kahler form. Ron told me he usually tunes EADGCFADG.
> 
> Keep in mind that Ron currently builds guitars mostly for his own microtonal research. He's researching many EDOs from 13 to 41 and needs a guitar for each EDO, so perhaps that's why these look a little cheap and basic. A $3000 customer ordered custom guitar may be very different.




I love the sound! The intervals flow really nicely together.


----------



## ixlramp (Nov 2, 2010)

Okay here's a video with 14EDO guitar and bass (14 frets per octave).

Mark Allan Barnes is the microtonal Bard of Cholsey, Oxfordshire, England. He has built a lyre guitar and lyre bass, both with exchangeable microtonal necks. The rectangular frame supports the headstock and the tension of the strings, allowing the neck to be quickly replaced. He has a collection of guitar and bass necks fretted for different microtonal scales, here's a quote from his myspace page:

"The fretboards I have made for the lyre guitar are fretboards for 7 note, 8 note, 9 note, 10 note, 11 note, 12 note, 13 note, 14 note and 24 note equal temperament, a fretboard for pythagorean (lydian/phrygian in E) tuning, one for 1/4 comma lydian/phrygian in E, one for 12 note Golden Meantone, One for just intonation with a 5 limit in E, One for sixth comma phrygian/lydian in E, One for "decimal Phi Tuning", which doesn't have conventional octaves, and one fretless fingerboard. The fingerboards for the bass lyre guitar I have made are a fretless fingerboard, ones for 7 note, 9 note, 10 note and 12 note equal temperament (like a normal bass), one for pythagorean E (phrygian/lydian), one for quarter comma in E (phrygian/lydian). The Decimal equal temperament is related to the (Balinese) Gamelan tuning known as "Slendro"


----------



## leandroab (Nov 2, 2010)

It sounds so middle eastern!


----------



## Hollowway (Nov 3, 2010)

pink freud said:


> Here is an amazing concept for microtonal, or any guitar, really:




That is hands down the coolest thing I've seen in years. You could totally make one of those true temperament frets, and then convert it back to regular.

But here's a question: Could you not use software to sort of "autotune" a guitar, when played, to true temperament? (Not entirely on topic, but I'm curious, with all the talk about a 12EDO system having the majority of the intervals out of tune).


----------



## bostjan (Nov 3, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> But here's a question: Could you not use software to sort of "autotune" a guitar, when played, to true temperament? (Not entirely on topic, but I'm curious, with all the talk about a 12EDO system having the majority of the intervals out of tune).



Yes, you can. I've seen plenty of guys do this with hexaphonic pickups. It's very difficult to do with a standard audio signal, but it's doable. In either case, though, you will not get a very normal guitar tone. To make it sound 100% real, it has to be 100% real.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 3, 2010)

Another cool thing you can do on synth stuff is making your own harmonic series that doesn't follow the "rules" of the natural one, so you can play in some really odd tunings and still sound consonant. For example you could make the minor 2nd and tritone the most consonant intervals and have the p4/p5 and octave sound "out".


----------



## bostjan (Nov 3, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2200805 said:


> Another cool thing you can do on synth stuff is making your own harmonic series that doesn't follow the "rules" of the natural one, so you can play in some really odd tunings and still sound consonant. For example you could make the minor 2nd and tritone the most consonant intervals and have the p4/p5 and octave sound "out".



 The tritone and minor second aren't from the same sequence, though. The minor third, minor sixth, and minor seventh are, though. 

I've been interested in the tunings where the octave isn't the primary set point (and the fourth or the fifth is). I've messed with a few, but I haven't found a good one yet.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 3, 2010)

bostjan said:


> The tritone and minor second aren't from the same sequence, though. The minor third, minor sixth, and minor seventh are, though.


There are softsynths (and probably some hardsynths) where you can do stuff like that though, just making a completely artificial harmonic series.


----------



## Hollowway (Nov 3, 2010)

Sigh. So it's not bad enough that I start hanging out on this forum and am now excited to get a fanned fret 10 string guitar. But now you guys give me GAS for microtonal guitars?  When am I ever gonna have time to practice regular guitar?


----------



## AntiTankDog (Nov 3, 2010)

>>>M.A.N, microtonal 7 strings. 

They are badass, I love that song.

Anyone else notice the Holdsworth 'Metal fatigue' lick in the middle, when everything stops for a second? 

Uhh...any of you young punks know who Holdsworth is?


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 4, 2010)

^Yes, there are a lot of Holdsworth fans on this site, myself included.


----------



## gui94 (Nov 4, 2010)

Microtonal, 24EDO, 12EDO, 17EDO... Ok, I know nothing about music!


----------



## bostjan (Nov 4, 2010)

gui94 said:


> Microtonal, 24EDO, 12EDO, 17EDO... Ok, I know nothing about music!



These are all just tunings. A lot of people who know a hell of a lot more about music than I do know nothing about these tunings.

@ All Your Bass - I think with Scala, you can make any tuning you want as long as you can imagine it.


----------



## whisper (Nov 4, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> M.A.N, microtonal 7 strings.




microtonal bass too!


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 5, 2010)

bostjan said:


> @ All Your Bass - I think with Scala, you can make any tuning you want as long as you can imagine it.


I do use (and abuse ) scala but what I was talking about is tuning the partials of the timbres themselves, while just tuning tried to match the notes to the partials, electronically tempered timbres match the partials to whatever you want.

So you could make your synth sound completely harmonious in 12tet by doing this, as the notes would no longer be bound by the natural harmonic series.

Here's two articles that go into this a bit.
TTSS prelude
Relating Tuning and Timbre


----------



## WishIwasfinnish (Nov 5, 2010)

Microtonal scales are used all the time in Arabic music, especially on the fretless Oud (one of which I own) and it is pretty nice when someone good is playing it. I absolutely hate the sound of microtonal stuff in metal though, it sounds ugly and pointless to me, but hey, that's just my two cents.


----------



## XeoFLCL (Nov 10, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> M.A.N, microtonal 7 strings.



I love you for introducing me to this band. Went and got their album and absolutely loving it. Very unique and actually good use of microtonal range, as in not cheesy and actually listenable.. VERY listenable...


----------



## coreysMonster (Nov 10, 2010)

I always thought the way that middle eastern flute players bend their notes into "wrong" sounding notes adds a very amazing sound to their music (we get a lot of arabs and such playing things like Duduks and stuff in the streets here, not to mention the music that is CONSTANTLY playing at Döner Kebap shops), and that acoustic guitar player in the video posted is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
However, I personally don't like the way it sounds on an electric guitar (except for quarter tones, like MAN), at least not distorted. I think it takes a certain kind of context to sound good. Kinda how you can't just go throwing chromatic notes around with the western 12-note scale and call it music (no matter how much Behold the Arktopus want us to believe it  )


----------



## severussnape (Nov 21, 2010)

I could care less about hearing this stuff shredded on, but if this could be incorporated in a jazz setting then I would find that interesting. 

Last fall I was in a commercial arranging and composition course, and this guy brought an instrument similar to a guitar. It wasn't a sitar, it was more of a guitar, but with microtonal frets in some areas. It sounded beautiful. The guy playing it put an Iranian poem to music that was distinctly western, but had some middle eastern flavor mixed heavily into it. The effect was amazing. 

[\kBackOnTopic]


----------



## NaYoN (Nov 21, 2010)

Wow a lot of people in the first page of the thread with their thinking this is bad. It just sounds wrong to you guys, because that's what you grew up with. 

I grew up in Turkey, so all this microtonal stuff sounds right to me.


----------



## Mindcrime1204 (Nov 21, 2010)

Imagine a microtonal turkish symphony where everyone plays out of tune,


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 21, 2010)

i can see the potential here, but its like drinking coffey or beer or something. its an aquired taste. 

Parts of the guy with the acoustics's clip sound beautiful to me and others just sound out of tune and ugly, but i know its just because its new to me.

to echo others, i can see the acoustic potential, but i dont think it would translate that well to metal

that acoustic that the guy has is fucking awesome and amazing


----------



## ixlramp (Nov 21, 2010)

16EDO theory page at xenharmonic wikispaces


----------



## Variant (Nov 23, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> But here's a question: Could you not use software to sort of "autotune" a guitar, when played, to true temperament? (Not entirely on topic, but I'm curious, with all the talk about a 12EDO system having the majority of the intervals out of tune).



We're actually doing that on some of our music using MIDI to control the pitch/samples.


----------



## ixlramp (Nov 30, 2010)

Ron Sword, Elaine Walker and two 16EDO instruments. It's a vertical keyboard worn on a strap, played like a touchguitar.






Vertical Keyboards


----------



## ProgCorey (Nov 30, 2010)

I could spend 3 grand on a new guitar, spend another 6 months of my time mastering it, or if i wanted 1/4 and 1/8 note intervals i could just bend the strings a little bit..


----------



## JamesM (Nov 30, 2010)

I'll not demean those into microtonality, but I will say this:

The real world experience I have with those interested in microtonality, and those who have delved into playing such music, are those who have been frustrated by their inability to succeed in the western 12EDO and have such moved into a realm where "not being able to play" is accepted. Further browsing this community on Youtube (briefly, mind you), I see a great deal of these microtonalists, and honestly they appear to have no idea or concept of what they are doing--not to mention no apparent mastery of their instrument.

That said, there are those who clearly know what they are doing, and successfully implement these things very musically.

EDIT:
Oh, and the whole mentality of this community (I gather) reminds me of Gabe at the end of The Office's "Viewing Party" episode, when Gabe says, "I like to create soundscapes. Imagine the sound of the universe constantly expanding at once..." etc. And at the end he proceeds to play "Earthrise on the Moon" on his MicroKORG XL to the only person that would listen, Andy who is then praying to the Porcelain God.


----------



## Xodus (Nov 30, 2010)

The Armada said:


> The real world experience I have with those interested in microtonality, and those who have delved into playing such music, are those who have been frustrated by their inability to succeed in the western 12EDO and have such moved into a realm where "not being able to play" is accepted. Further browsing this community on Youtube (briefly, mind you), I see a great deal of these microtonalists, and honestly they appear to have no idea or concept of what they are doing--not to mention no apparent mastery of their instrument.


All these arguments can be directly applied to most 12EDO musicians. Do you really understand microtonal music, or does it just *appear* to you as nonsense?

(Not trying to start shit but I can't phrase this any better)


----------



## Xodus (Nov 30, 2010)

Double post


----------



## JamesM (Nov 30, 2010)

Xodus said:


> All these arguments can be directly applied to most 12EDO musicians. Do you really understand microtonal music, or does it just *appear* to you as nonsense?
> 
> (Not trying to start shit but I can't phrase this any better)



No stress man, I know what you're trying convey.

I never said anything about microtonal music being nonsense. 

Quite the contrary, I said that "_there are those who clearly know what they are doing, and successfully implement these things very musically._" I was actually discussing my experiences and opinions with a group (however large) within the microtonal music community.


----------



## Xodus (Nov 30, 2010)

The Armada said:


> I never said anything about microtonal music being nonsense. .


I was implying that you might find that many microtonal players have no idea what they are doing because you don't like/understand microtonal music, but I see what you were saying now.


----------

