# Full fifths tuning - technology finally catching up to ideas



## Explorer (May 23, 2009)

Back in the 1980s, I experimented with full fifths tuning, but as the highest a 25.5 string could go was G#4, I gave it up. I wanted something a bit normal for my open strings, and my playing wasnt up to playing completely closed. I decided if I couldnt get up to a B4, Id just keep playing in a few other tunings which didnt require restringing, rather than use a crippled fifths tuning. Going that route just kept the discontinuity of an odd interval among the constant intervals of the other strings, so why not stick with standard, for the most part? 

(Incidentally, I was using one of the early Ovation collectors editions with the shallow body. I always thought interesting that Bob Fripp decided to go that route as well. Theres something about those guitars which invited exploration, I guess. Beyond that, as Bob was also around quite a few folk instruments in the same area I was in, even making a deal with a local guitar and folks instrument store to get reduced prices on the guitars for the Guitar Craft courses he started some time after, I suspect he was influenced by the same thoughts that I was, upon being able to hear and try so many bouzoukis, mandolins and octave mandolins.)

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Three years ago, I got to play a friends 5-course mandolin-mandola, which is tuned in full fifths. I had previously thought about getting a 5- or 6-course cittern in full fifths, but they run about $3k for a decent one, and I just couldnt see getting an instrument which seems constrained in terms of sound. 

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More recently, I started thinking more seriously about fifths tuning again, and in looking around, I found that Garry Goodman was making strings of a new material, one which could be tuned to A4 at the 25.5 scale length, and the other capable of reaching B4. 

octave4plus.com

(I know theyve been posted about, but I havent read of anyone doing the full fifths thing,by going higher yet. I might have missed it when I went through the archives, though.)

The time was right, and I sent in an order. I did a set-up on one of my guitars, allowing a marginally larger string for the bottom course, and making sure the string path was completely smooth for the expected B4 string. (At $5 a pop, I dont want to spend more on strings than I have to because something bites into the string at full tension.) When the strings arrived, I strung up the guitar, taking a bit more time for the top B4 than they suggest so I wouldnt break it in my impatience. 

Voila! I had a six-string tuned C2  G2  D3  A3  E4  B4. By capoing at the fifth fret, the top four strings correspond to the violin, and the middle four strings to a viola. Open, the bottom four strings are pitched as a cello.

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By using an eBow with a bridge humbucker, one can get amazing tones out of the instrument, and even just using a pick, one can learn quite a bit of fingering technique out of books for bowed instruments. If cello players can play scales with fifth tuning, theres no reason I shouldnt be able to learn at longer scale lengths as well.

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Im having an Ovation 12-string set up to have unison strings on the bottom courses (normally the strings in the bottom four courses are tuned in octaves), in order to get better tone when played acoustically, compared to a single-strung acoustic six-string. 

Now Im looking for more. Ive put in an order for a hardtail Agile Interceptor Pro 828. With the 28 scale length, I am planning on tuning the instrument Ab0  Eb1  Bb1  F2  C3  G3  D4  A4, giving me a range of six octaves. As this will give me more range than a standard bass and a guitar, I think it will keep me busy for quite a while. If I have it set up perfectly, I should be able to slip in a mute and even work on tapstyle/touchstyle, and the range of the instrument will be both higher and lower than the 12-string Stick.

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Theres quite a few resources out there for learning soloing and chording on mandolin and cittern, all of which apply to full fifths tuning on guitar. Im finding it easy to move everything around the fretboard, especially as the stringing is completely consistent. Ive found quite a few posts about folks using a crippled fifths tuning, but IMO that doesnt allow one to leverage the consistencies across the fretboard, as one still has to learn the exceptions to the patterns.

At the time a lot of folks first started looking at this tuning, the strings just weren't where they are now, and the instruments also didn't have the set-up options of today. I believe that the time is right, and that string and instrument technology have gotten to the point where full fifths tuning is not just possible, but plausible. If it becomes a bit more widespread, I can imagine all those who took violin lessons as kids being able to apply that to guitar; bringing in that body of technique can only help guitar in the long run.

Its cool to read of those who have consistently using full fifths tuning; other than a few folks Ive run into on the mando-instruments forums, this is the only place Ive been able to find others who are interested and working in full fifths. As this is my first post on this forum, thanks for giving me such a cool place to de-lurk.

Cheers!


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## leftyguitarjoe (May 23, 2009)

woah


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## Apophis (May 23, 2009)

first of all 

I think you just found out the best place for such things like fifths tuning, erg guitars and all that unusual musical stuff you can imagine, that forum is just AWESOME 

btw. I also use symmetrical tuning like fifths, but I use all fourths (P4) tuning for all my instruments


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## Stealthdjentstic (May 23, 2009)

Good luck


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## troyguitar (May 23, 2009)

Rock on. I kept an old strat in 5ths for awhile at F-C-G-D-A-E so I didn't need any special strings but found that I didn't really use the low F string.

Maybe I'll grab some octave4plus strings and try it your way with the high B, or maybe down a full step from there...


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## vansinn (May 23, 2009)

Great post! I'm getting increasingly interested in fifth tunings, surely due to taking violin lessons in my teens, and my love for renaissanse music.
I'd love to have one sometime soon, only finance doesn't permit ATM.
I have a hard time seeing fifth tunings being practical without a multiscale layout, though.


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## Metal Ken (May 23, 2009)

Yeah,i did 5th tuning on a 25.5" fretless a while back. G(Half step above 8 string F#), DAEBF# here.

No special strings or anything needed, and the bottom strings are a violin, a couple octaves down.


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## Explorer (May 23, 2009)

Vansinn, cash shouldnt be a huge deal to do this on an acoustic. Currently my acoustic is strung:

B4 - .006 Octave4Plus string for B4
E4 - .010 DAddario plain steel
A3 - .020 DAddario PB wound
D3 - .030 DAddario PB wound
G2 - .042 DAddirio PB wound
C2 - .054 DAddario PB wound

And, as always, be sure your string path is clean. I was worried that the bridge pin would bite into the O4+ string, so I took care to make sure there were no sharp edges on either the edge where the string comes out of the hole, or anywhere on the bridge pin. I also made sure there were no edges on the bridge saddle or nut. This stringing has the same tension as the extra-light DAddario set of phosphor bronze strings, so the neck isnt under stress. 

When using the acoustic with others, I can run the output through a Korg Pandora PX4A, which is now full of all kinds of patches which give me mandolin, mandola and bouzouki/octave mandolin tones. With a tiny little Danelectro Honeytone N-10 battery-powered amp unobtrusively placed under my chair, it gets all kinds of remarks: How are you getting that shimmery tone out of that guitar?How are you getting the octave bass notes with single strings? 

(Incidentally, a lot of folks say that the Pandora eats batteries, but by keeping the backlight off, Ive gotten more than 10 hours of life out of my first set of batteries. Could the problem really be something that simple?)

I knew I was in it for the long haul, so I wound up buying a few strings at once. Theres a shipping charge for each order from Octave4Plus, so buying at least four strings would help mitigate that, spreading that $5 charge a bit, instead of buying a single $10 string.

And, if one is going to use the tuning over time, it is completely worth it to do the string calculations, make sure the gauges work for the length, and then ordering strings in bulk. The cost of a full fifths string set for six-string, ordering in bulk, is less than $10US a set. Theres quite a few online shops which sell singles, both plain and wound, in bulk.

I use the DAddario string tension chart for getting into the ballpark. I know what strings I normally like, and the DAddario chart allows me to find the normal tension for that gauge, and then to find a string diameter with the same tension for the new pitch. 

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Even if it seems like a lot of math to do strings which have different lengths, I sometimes use the OpenOffice freeware, which contains an Microsoft Excel-compatible spreadsheet program, to set up a worksheet where I can alter the length, tension and pitch. Its sometimes hard to figure out how to get the math to work out automatically, and I am DEFINITELY not the person to explain it, but it could be worth the time investment. 

If youre stringing an instrument with the standard 25.5 scale length, another shortcut I use is to remember that doubling the diameter on the chart lowers the pitch of the string an octave. The chart doesnt support going really low, but doubling the A and Ab strings is easier than doing the math.

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Vansinn, what do you mean by a multiscale layout?

Cheers!


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## guitarplayerone (May 23, 2009)

fifths tuning is totally awesome stuff. I cant play anything on it that doesn't sound super blotted-science influenced


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## DeathCarrot (May 23, 2009)

Explorer said:


> Vansinn, what do you mean by a multiscale layout


Instead of a flat 25.5" scale, you could have it ramp down from a longer scale. See this thread for an example: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...78032-blackmachine-f8-big-pictures-alert.html


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## Metal Ken (May 24, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> fifths tuning is totally awesome stuff. I cant play anything on it that doesn't sound super blotted-science influenced



Its the reason why i want a beater 6 string, really


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## All_¥our_Bass (May 25, 2009)

Fifths tunning is the shit basically.
I love symmetrical tunnings, and the only other tunnign I would ever use besides fifths, is fourths.
I would LOVE to try it on a seven or eight.


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## MTech (May 25, 2009)

this just makes me wish I could find a Schecter Cello Blaster even more... or they'd re-release them.













_&#8230; the next generation of Rock guitar is here! Create Sonic sub-lows with this revolutionary new patented 5-String instrument. Tuned in 5ths, with its extra-long scale (27 extra jumbo frets), extended sonic range, and &#8216;harmonic separation&#8217;, the CB-2000 is the ultimate in power, clarity and versatility. Go beyond the range of a 7-String with a neck (40mm at nut) that takes no getting used to! 
Available in: Black, Gun Metal Gray, Dark Metallic Blue, Satin Black.

The CB-2000 is tuned (low to high) A/E/B/F#/C#, factory strung with custom Schecter CELLOBLASTER&#8482; Rhythm from Hell strings (.0111/2&#8221; /.019/.036/.050/.074). These will be available from authorized Schecter dealers everywhere.

For players who do not dare tread to the depths of a low &#8216;A&#8217;, a NEO-CLASSICAL set will be available to tune the CB-2000 to the more traditional tuning of C/G/D/A/E. (.010/.016/.029/.043/.067)._


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## vansinn (May 25, 2009)

Explorer said:


> Vansinn, cash shouldn&#8217;t be a huge deal to do this on an acoustic. Currently my acoustic is strung:
> 
> B4 - .006 Octave4Plus string for B4
> E4 - .010 D&#8217;Addario plain steel
> ...



Hadn't noticed this document. Like many in here, I use these two online tools:
http://www.bangzero.org/stringtension/
http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/nonparallel.php



> Vansinn, what do you mean by a multiscale layout?



Multiscale, compound scale, fanned fret.. unequal string scales, to accomodate different tension schemes, avoid too thin upper strings and too thick lower strings.
It's been discussed quite a lot in here.
I don't have such an instrument as yet, but the more I looked into it, the more natural it seems, to the point of straight/perpendicular fretting starting to look unnatural, at least on more than 6/7 stings and for tunings like the 5th.
The 'nonparallel' applet referred above can be used to calculate multiscales; and can be combined with with the other tool for calculating tensions.

Your referred string selections for the acoustics 5th looks way too varied in gauges for my preferences; hence my comment on using a multiscale layout.


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## Tom Drinkwater (May 25, 2009)

those cello blasters look sweet. I tune a squier stratocaster in 5ths and I like it so much that I am going to set up another guitar a little better with the 5ths tuning. I need at least a 27" scale because I want to go low and about the same high end as a standard guitar. We'll see. I think that 5ths is a wonderful tuning because of the super wide chords and the arpeggios line up a little easier than on a 4ths tuning.


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## distressed_romeo (May 25, 2009)

MTech said:


> this just makes me wish I could find a Schecter Cello Blaster even more... or they'd re-release them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great pics! Haven't seen those two on the right before. I'd love a two-PU one tuned CGDAE!


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## MTech (May 25, 2009)

Apparently they made a Alex Greggory Signature model 7 string tuned in 5ths but they only ever made 3 of them from what I found on the net and there's no pictures. The ones I posted above are cheaper versions they bought the license of the guy to build and than they had a falling out.


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## distressed_romeo (May 25, 2009)

MTech said:


> Apparently they made a Alex Greggory Signature model 7 string tuned in 5ths but they only ever made 3 of them from what I found on the net and there's no pictures. The ones I posted above are cheaper versions they bought the license of the guy to build and than they had a falling out.



I think the Schecter Alex Gregory sig was actually tuned DGCFADG rather than in fifths, as he couldn't find strings that would tune to a high A at the time. You're right about the licensing issue though, which really sucks, as I'd love to see a new range of celloblasters (Hellraiser C5?).


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## MTech (May 25, 2009)

distressed_romeo said:


> I think the Schecter Alex Gregory sig was actually tuned DGCFADG rather than in fifths, as he couldn't find strings that would tune to a high A at the time. You're right about the licensing issue though, which really sucks, as I'd love to see a new range of celloblasters (Hellraiser C5?).


Ahh interesting.. I was wondering what they'd tune it in and most of the posts made it seem like it was tuned like the 5's.. I don't get why they didn't just do a 6 string baritone and tune it like that rather than loose a string...


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## Explorer (May 25, 2009)

I dont know about how varied the gauges themselves are, but the string tensions on all my guitars are pretty even.

*[Warning: personal preference ahead. No aspersions are being cast on others preferences. These are merely my own preferences, based on my own situation.]* I like playing with light strings at this point, and Im no longer heavy handed. I had to practice this, as I used to have hand issues, but now I no longer have to fret and play with all my might. Its interesting how much easier it is to play when one only has to fret, as opposed to fighting the stiffness of strings and higher action. *[End preference alert.]*

No one trying my fifth-tuned instruments has really noticed the string gauge variation, but the string heights are all pretty even across the bed thanks to good set-up. Other than adding the .006 B4 string, the rest of the strings are all in keeping with the tensions and sizes of a set of DAddario EJ15 extra lights on the acoustic. 

The real test will be when I get my Agile Intrepid Pro, because the target bottom string on that will be a .100. I think that Ill be playing the Intrepid for a while as a seven string, to be sure the string gauges work for everything else for a month; if not, Ill be within my return period. After it works out for seven-string fifths, Ill have the nut, tuners and ferrules altered to have the full eight-string fifths tuning. I do trust my guitar tech to make the work look good, as she is one of the most reputable and acclaimed techs and luthiers in the area. Shes intrigued by the conversion work Ive been doing on my other instruments. Im going to buy a set of matching inline tuners so she can do a few drill-outs of the string holes in the machines without my having to wait for additional tuners if things go south on one or two. 

I dont know how fanned frets/multiscaling would work for tapstyle, which is another consideration which led to my going for the parallel fretted Intrepid. 

I know that you guys here at SS.org have much more experience than I in terms of workable string gauges for lower pitches on electric guitar. Other than guitar, my main instrument is an archaic ancestor of the piano, with varying string lengths and a lot of experimentation to get not just the right pitch at the right tension, but also the right tone. On electric, there doesnt seem to be much one can do beyond nickel and steel, so one doesnt have the material density options which are available for the acoustic instrument world. It's possible that the Intrepid will turn out to be a dog, but I'm hopeful that I might get somewhere with it. The real test will be if folks trying my Intrepid out, with no preconceptions as to extended range instruments, find it comfortable to play. 

----

The only thing which will just kill me would be for Octave4Plus to go out of business. Im relying on a single source for a critical component of my playing at this point. I am hopeful that the market for strings of this particular material grows further, because that makes it more likely that other sources will appear. 

----

I noticed the Celloblaster, and have been tempted by its funkiness factor, but I like having the violin range easily accessible, along with the full bass range of a normal six-string. Still, nothing says non-standard like someone counting the tuning machines and getting a number thats... odd. *laugh*


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## MTech (May 25, 2009)

So you guys got me really interested on this concept and I've been reading the patent..it's got loads of interesting information..


"The process is not really logical, but the results are perfect. The new tuning of the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR, as we said, is currently B, E, A, D, G, B, E or thereabout. If we think in terms of notes as opposed to musical instruments or engineering, that means that the current 7 STRING GUITAR has a range that only covers a semi-tone lower than the Classical CELLO and 7 semi-tones higher.

Nevertheless, by the addition of the next higher fifth to the tuning of the classical CELLO, i.e.: a high E we have the full range of the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR, with only a low semi-tone missing.

If this tuning is applied to the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR, the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR is now a 5 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR tuned in fifths and with almost the exact range.

If the scale is increased from the standard scale of the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR of 25.5 inches to a maximum of 26.25 inches the tension of the strings is increased enough to remove a great deal of floppiness from the bottom strings but without causing playability problems to a guitarist, who, obviously has not go the finger spread of a bass player.

Now the scale being 3/4" longer it is possible to add 3 extra frets to the new musical instrument without any spacing problem, gaining 3 more semi-tones, in the upper region, i.e.: ending up with a whole tone more range than the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR, with only 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR, with only 5 strings.

But if the new breed of player prefers low sounds, why not move the low C down to a low A, giving an even ore extreme low end?

The result is excellent as we now have a new instrument that has exactly the same highest note as a 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR along with the newly described tuning. In fact, the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR has 24 frets and the highest string is an E, consequently the 24th fret will also be an E.

If the new instrument goes up in fifths from a very low A, it will be tuned to the notes of A, E, B, F#, C# and the 27th fret on the C# string will also be a high E.

This new instrument is clearly superior to the 7 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR, when the added string is a lower note.

In fact, the longer scale gives way better tension and response to the otherwise very floppy low string. The tuning in fifths gives far more definition, as the harmonic separation clears any muddiness exacerbated by massive amplification gain and distortion.

The reduction of strings to only 5 allows the use of thicker strings (it is obviously much easier to play a smaller neck, width-wise, and fewer strings, therefore the player can afford to use some of the automatically gained strength to easily deal with the challenge of thicker strings) drastically improving the tone of the instrument (it is common knowledge that thicker strings sound better than thin ones, though are harder to play) and its punch.

Therefore, the preferred embodiment of the CELLOBLASTER is a 5 STRING ELECTRIC GUITAR-SIZED instrument tuned in fifths from a very low A, with a scale of 26.25 inches and 27 frets."
Five string electric guitar - US Patent 6300549 Description


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## vansinn (May 25, 2009)

^ mmnn..: _"..it is common knowledge that thicker strings sound better than thin ones.."_ 

Anyways, how on earth a patent can be granted for this, just because one string is removed and the tuning is changed to something having been in use for.. what? centuries.. is beyond my mental capacity - but then again, most patent stuff is..


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## Explorer (May 25, 2009)

The patent is probably not defendable, as there is too much prior art in terms of fifth-tuned instruments predating the patent, both bowed and plucked. There are examples of five-course electric citterns, both single and double strung, fifth-tuned electric basses, and bridgepieces for bowed instrument from Stew Mac for converting to five strings. And, of course, as Fripps Crippled Fifths Tuning has a five-string fifth-tuned instrument within its six strings, dating back to the 1980s, it would be hard to argue that the fifths tuning was unknown in the public domain.

The funny thing about the patent description is that it gives with one hand, but takes away with the other. The claim is made that adding that magical 3/4 will take away that dreaded floppiness, but then the suggestion is to take the tuning down to a low A, which will bring the floppiness back. The only way to get around this is looking at ones string gauges, but the patent ignores this point, and therefore also doesnt recognise that one might mitigate the floppiness with string gauges even at the 25.5 scale length. 

In reference to having an instrument with more frets, I have considered a Danelectric Guitarlin for conversion, with its 31-fret neck. The necks are surprisingly playable, and I would have tuned it F1  C2  G2  D3 - A3  E4. Granted, its not the toughest looking guitar, but it was used by Link Wray, so the Longhorn has its own mojo. With a fifth-tuned range of 5 octaves and a fifth, its still something I think about.


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## MTech (May 25, 2009)

Why not just buy a LTD baritone you can get a used one pretty cheap I'd imagine, and the new ones aren't too much either..


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## Explorer (May 25, 2009)

Assuming the question was addressed to me, I don't really see a good reason to get a baritone if it's just a six-string, or even if it's a seven- or eight-string. I've had enough good results from just adjusting my string gauges and tensions on instruments with shorter scale lengths that I suspect I can get equally good results by continuing in the same vein. I'm not too worried about having to make adjustments at the nut, bridge or tuners to make those strings work.

Because of that, the only reason I can see for getting any kind of neck beyond the normal 25.5" six-string is to either get more strings (seven or eight) or more frets beyond 24. 

Even though I look like a wuss because the guitar lacks balls in the appearance department. *laugh*


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## MTech (May 26, 2009)

I just meant to be able to do the whole tuned to fifths deal because the extra tension helps when going that low.


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## Tom Drinkwater (May 28, 2009)

I think that the 'optimum' scale length for a 5ths tuned 6 string would be 27" to 30". That is not to say that 25.5" scale won't work or that a 25.5" scale has any short coming at all. I just happen to like the timbre of the notes at the longer scale especially when tuned down below B. I recently built a 27" 8 string tuned down to F and it sounded great but I used a .090 bass string and a massive brass string retainer to further aid the tone.


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## Explorer (May 28, 2009)

Incidentally, got a chance to try a Danelectro Guitarlin this week. The tone is what one would expect from a linoleum guitar. *laugh* For whatever reason, including lack of oxygen to the brain, I was extrapolating my good experience with Steinberger instruments to an instrument with completely different materials. The Danelectro body just won't deliver the kind of tone or sustain one might be looking for, or at least what I'm looking for.

MTech, you are absolutely right in terms of getting a better guitar. I don't directly know about the scale length (baritone versus 25.5") as being as great a concern as the construction and materials, though. I bow to experience and institutional memory here at sevenstring.org, as I've not yet done any work at longer scale lengths.

I do think, if one were sticking to a six-string, that a Steinberger Synapse Transcale would make a good full-fifths guitar, especially if one were looking for an electric mando-family instrument. The scale length at either full open position or the second fret is equivalent to a lot of bouzouki/mandocello instruments, and with the integral rolling capo, one can easily get the mandolin/mandola pitches at the fifth fret. 

I just add that last bit for the sake of completeness. One never knows who might be looking for information on instruments in the future, and it could save them some time with research. I'm grateful for everything I found on this site, and especially for the time folks invested in getting the Agile Intrepid off the ground....


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 2, 2009)

Update:
I blocked the trem on my RG 1527 and tuned to fifths. The last 2 strings are tuned different till I get my new string sets
I tuned from Low G on ,and it feeled already comfy even though the high strings are not tuned.
The body of my (highly changed) RG resonates better now. The powerchords bloom and the sound is awesome.

After figuring out how to play my old songs (mostly all-over the neck) ,I think i stay with this tuning. It#s lots of fun ,and the harmonics are just jumping out of the neck hehe.

Cheers to all for this awesome idea. I enjoy it!


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## MF_Kitten (Jun 2, 2009)

i've never liked all-fifths tunings. i like drop tunings, where you have one string being a fifth below the next one, but after that, i do like the usual intervals. it's enough range for me.

what i do find interesting, however, are open tunings. in other words, alternating fifths and fourths. on an 8 string guitar, you could tune to open C major with available strings, with the highest string being an E.

i do like listening to what people can do with all fifths tunings. we need more of it


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## synrgy (Jun 2, 2009)

MF_Kitten said:


> what i do find interesting, however, are open tunings. in other words, alternating fifths and fourths. on an 8 string guitar, you could tune to open C major with available strings, with the highest string being an E.


 
I used to dig on an open C tuning with a droned G string -- C G C G G E

Been meaning to try a 7 string version of that..


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## vansinn (Jun 2, 2009)

MF_Kitten said:


> i've never liked all-fifths tunings. i like drop tunings, where you have one string being a fifth below the next one, but after that, i do like the usual intervals. it's enough range for me.



I've been thinking of an 8-stringer with the low string always dropped, plus two drop-tuners on the two low strings. Dropping them both a full note yields three low strings in a fifth tuning, with the remaining in a 'normal' tuning.
From the E3 string and down to the 6th string, all will feel normal with a dropped 7th string, plus one will have three low 5th tuned (for i.e. cello-like inspirations).

Can't try it out, as I have no eight stringer yet, but seems interesting for some of my symph metal stuff.


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 2, 2009)

I am really sold on 5ths. At least 1 guitar will stay like that. my next 8 string fretless is a good candidate too ,since I really think that this tuning has more sustain!


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## MF_Kitten (Jun 2, 2009)

a great 7 string tuning is GDGDGBE. try it!


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 2, 2009)

MF_Kitten said:


> a great 7 string tuning is GDGDGBE. try it!



I tend to riff everywhere on the neck ,so some "symmetry" would be cool for me.
That's hwat 5ths give me. Fast and perfect powerchords ,interesting other chords ,hard but doable nice Oriental styles.

And I am talking about 8 strings.

Soo ,after discussing with then people at octave4plus ,I see that is impossible to get a G5 ,or even a usable C5 at 24,5"

So I dcided to go with 4 x 5ths and 4x 4ths .
It's GDAEADG. Should resonate good.
I try the 7 string version of it now ,I am going to report as soon as i am done. Cheers!


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## vansinn (Jun 3, 2009)

^ a 5th tuned 8-stringer..  that's a pretty large range! A 5th tuned 6-stringer already cover more than a 'normal' 7-stringer, so..
Which tuning would you choose?


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## troyguitar (Jun 3, 2009)

vansinn said:


> ^ a 5th tuned 8-stringer..  that's a pretty large range! A 5th tuned 6-stringer already cover more than a 'normal'* 8-stringer*, so..
> Which tuning would you choose?



fixed.


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 3, 2009)

vansinn said:


> ^ a 5th tuned 8-stringer..  that's a pretty large range! A 5th tuned 6-stringer already cover more than a 'normal' 7-stringer, so..
> Which tuning would you choose?



Yess ,yess. I am tuning different now.
I bought a 009 and a 007 today for my 1527 and both are very tight.

I tuned the 1527 to G1 D2 A3 E3 A4 D4 and G4. The range is extrme and the high notes are already ridiculous LOL.

I tried the same with a whole step down .and didn't like it. But with a 27" wenge neck ,I might be happy with having an F and C.
Maybe I just double the High Gs. Iduuno ,time will tell.

I played 3 hours today, and i am very happy. Many new ideas pop out of nothing ,and interesting chords made me grin. Love it so far.
The 4 string 5ths and 3 string 4ths work like magic LOL.

The guitar sustains well ,and the notes bloom somehow more.


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## cvinos (Jun 3, 2009)

Explorer, which tone do you mean with A0?

Just want to make sure I completely understand your undertaking.

I am used to this notation: Töne und Oktavlagen


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 3, 2009)

Frequencies of Musical Notes


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## Explorer (Jun 3, 2009)

In the numbering system I use, the octave numbers are from C to B (H in the system you list). Middle C is C4, as opposed to c1. The lowest pitch on a piano is A0, as opposed to A2.

By having just a letter and a number, there is no question of someone miswriting a pitch by capitalization error. Also, the pitches always go up as the numbers increase, instead of having the numbers increase as one goes higher and lower than the midpoint.

So, the pitches I gave:

Ab0  Eb1  Bb1  F2  C3  G3  D4  A4

The pitches in your system:

Ab2  E1  Hb1  F  c  g  d1  a1

And, to be clear, I never used the pitch A0. I suspect you forgot to list the flat for the low Ab0.

----

daemon barbecue, your 1527 should have a 25.5 scale length, no? Using the Octave4Plus string, you can tune it F1  C2  G2  D3  A3  E4  B4.

You didnt like the tone of the low F, but you never mention what string gauges you put on when you worked on a full fifths tuning. If you post what you changed to, and what pitches and strings you were using before, it would be easy to work out what would make a better target gauge for your new pitches. 

----

  
I appreciate all the posts about other possibilities besides full fifths tunings. Why not start a thread about them, so that folks wont miss them? Right now, those experiments are buried in this thread, whose title has nothing to do with anything other than full fifths tuning. Wouldnt it be better to catch the interest of other like-minded persons with a title reflecting such experimentation, instead of being off-topic in this thread? 

Cheers!


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 3, 2009)

Explorer said:


> In the numbering system I use, the octave numbers are from C to B (H in the system you list). Middle C is C4, as opposed to c1. The lowest pitch on a piano is A0, as opposed to A2.
> 
> By having just a letter and a number, there is no question of someone miswriting a pitch by capitalization error. Also, the pitches always go up as the numbers increase, instead of having the numbers increase as one goes higher and lower than the midpoint.
> 
> ...





I have to thank you man ,you gave me big inspiration and opened a total new musical field!

I use a 0,068 for the Low G. The 0,009 for the High D and the 0,007 for the High G are too tight . I bend the strings alot and my 1527 is fully scalloped.

I think 0,008 for the High D and 0,006 from O4Y would be perfect.

You are right about the 0,068 . I will try the Low F version once i get my Custom. It brings lot's of advantages ofcourse, but some disadvantages too. I like 1/8 and 1/16 notes when I play rythm. The Low G still accepts this pretty well. But Th low F lacks that clarity. Not just on the 25,5" neck ,but on the most Hi-Fi speakers and headphones. 43 Hz is not easy on human ear. Hard to understand and define.


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## damigu (Jun 3, 2009)

i've never tried full 5ths tuning, but i did try NST for a while. fun stuff.


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## Explorer (Jun 4, 2009)

Damigu, it did take me a while to get back to full fifths since the 1980s. I was never a big convert to Fripp&#8217;s crippled fifths tuning, because I didn&#8217;t see an advantage in learning something which had the same discontinuity as standard tuning.

Since starting work on full fifths this go around, though, I&#8217;ve now had most of my guitars converted over. I&#8217;m keeping one six-string and one twelve-string for retuning, but everything else is now set up for full fifths. 

I thought it was going to be a huge hassle to start working in full fifths, but it's going along more smoothly than I had expected. What will take a bit of time is working on older repertoire, and getting the chordal patterns down. However, a lot of chording requires less strings/courses than in standard tuning to get the same basic sound. As a strange side effect of full fifths, the more complex the chord, the easier it is to play. Looking at a fretboard generator will make things much clearer than my talking about it, though.

----

One of the better resources I&#8217;ve been using has been the fretboard generator found here:

The Bass and Guitar Fretboard Diagram Printer

Even though it only gives options for 7 strings maximum, by chosing &#8220;custom&#8221; as the instrument, one can enter all the open notes, and it will generate a fretboard diagram for that instrument&#8230; including the eight-course full fifths tuning I&#8217;ll be working in. 

By choosing &#8220;scale degrees&#8221; in the &#8220;diagram&#8221; tab, and by not showing fret and fretboard markers, one can print the scales and chords onto thicker paper, cut a holder, and make a chord/scale slide-rule. The scale/chord part slides into an outer sleeve, with a window which shows the fret numbers on the edge, with the scale/chord visible through the window; the chord/scale root is written on the inner part below the fretboard diagram, and displayed through another small window cut in the outer sleeve, so that as one slides the inner part along, the appropriate root is displayed for the inner part&#8217;s position.

I don&#8217;t have a picture of this, but you can examine normal guitar slide-rule chord devices available at most music stores to get the idea.

----

daemon barbeque, what were the comfortable string gauges you originally used on your instrument, and how was it tuned at that point? If you post them, I&#8217;ll take a quick look and make a recommendation as to what will feel the same, but will give you the lower pitches.

How large are the speakers in your rig? 10&#8221; and below won&#8217;t give you the bass response you need for F1 or G1, in my opinion.

Given that this *is* sevenstring.org, I&#8217;m sure there is some information here about how large a speaker one needs for downtuning and playing lower pitches. 

As things stand now, though, I don&#8217;t always play all strings at once. For the most part, I play a lot of four string/course chords, which keeps things clear and defined. If you take a page from piano players, normally they keep the bass end of chords sparse, and then get denser as one reaches the upper extensions. 

The classic power chords are pretty basic, but if one is playing a pitch which doesn&#8217;t match a higher tone, it&#8217;s really obvious. I&#8217;d agree that, out of all context, it might be hard to distinguish a particular bass note, but add even one more note and that bass note can be understood.


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 4, 2009)

Well ,I might hear it at home ,but many people "can't" understand under 49Hz. This is science and i can't change that LOL. Of course I can use the Low F as powerchords ,but then I lose the oportunity to play my own style. It's a hard decision.

I was using 0,068 ,0,052 ,0,038 , 0,022 , 0,016 , 0,012 , 0,009 for ADGCFAD.
For the ne tuning ,I will change the 0,068 to 0,070, 0,016 to 0,013, 0,012 to 0,008 , and 0,009 to 0,006.

It's still not full fifths. half fifths half fourths.

The new instrument is multisclae ,so it will be totally different.


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## vansinn (Jun 4, 2009)

^ interesting tuning.. Kindof what I wrote about in an earlier post, i.e. three lower strings in 5th, 5 upper strings in fourth. Damn economy, I so need that 8-stringer. Now!


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 4, 2009)

It works pretty well. But I dunno what I'll do with the roter 8. I'll go with F or doble the high G4


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## phaeded0ut (Jun 9, 2009)

Wow! Thanks for putting this up there. I only heard/learned about the crafty thing (discovered it wasn't me) a bit after I found out about the Chapman Stick (and equally discovered that it wasn't me). On the all fifth's side, I've played a few instruments that use it. Mandolins and bouzoukis, mainly.

On the topic of Chinese tunings, let me recommend a few I use for a qin:
(C4 is middle C.)

C3, D3, E3, G3, A4, C4, D4 (my own preference)
B3, C#3, E3, F#3, G#3, B4, C#4 (standard)
A3, C#3, E3, F#3, A4, B4, C#4 
A3, C3, D3, E3, G3, A4, C4


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jun 12, 2009)

On the topic of mirrored fourths/fifths tuning, I think a reverse of the "usual" chapman tuning would be really cool-having fourths in the bass and fifths in the treble register.

Something like this.
EADGCGDAE


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## daemon barbeque (Jun 12, 2009)

All_¥our_Bass;1544678 said:


> On the topic of mirrored fourths/fifths tuning, I think a reverse of the "usual" chapman tuning would be really cool-having fourths in the bass and fifths in the treble register.
> 
> Something like this.
> EADGCGDAE



the mirrored tuning is soooooooooo much fun man. I dig it soo much ,I played 3 hours last night nonstop ,and new ideas are just popping on my mind like there's no end to it.


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