# So. Israel.



## McKay (May 17, 2011)

Opinions?


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## leonardo7 (May 17, 2011)

My opinion? Israel is a bully. The Golan Heights belong to Syria, not to Israel.


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## UnderTheSign (May 17, 2011)

Every time I bring this up in a discussion, random people say "but... It used to be their land back in the day!"...


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## The Somberlain (May 19, 2011)

Well, the Jewish people have a right to a home, but not exemption from international laws, precedents, and codes of conduct. Basically, stop being a dick and I'll accept you, Israel.


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## ArkaneDemon (May 19, 2011)

I'd post some other videos but then I'd get called an anti-semite (wrongly).


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## SirMyghin (May 19, 2011)

If you were surrounded by a bunch of fundamentalist countries who believed you should be driven into the sea and that is that, I doubt you would let your guard down, or let incursion exist within your reach.


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## Overtone (May 19, 2011)

Which of their neighbors are fundamentalist and call for them to be driven into the sea? Not Jordan. Not Lebanon (Hezbollah does not represent the entire Lebanon). Not Turkey. Syria... not officially. All these countries have treaties and agreements with Israel that negate the idea that they as nations call for them to be expelled. 



It's been a sick nightmare for a long time. Netanyahu is a very shrewd guy and knows how to get away with whatever he wants. Since the end of the settlement freeze they've been building nonstop. What really worries me is that he has a history of creating ultimatums, saying "I told you so", and going on horrific bombing campaigns. The way they work is that they identify their targets months in advance and once they have what they consider to be justification, they don't stop bombing till they've hit every single one, plus anybody else who gets involved during the fact. The collateral damage is always horrific and they have made it clear many times that they'll bomb the hell out of the place to teach the people a lesson (they call it "the boss is mad" or something). It is pretty scary stuff. 

I consider some of the things happening to be a form of long term ethnic cleansing... not through genocide, but by other means such as suppressing the culture/language, keeping people separate from the land they tend and allowing settlers to illegally use it for their own profit. Keep it going long enough and the local culture will start to recede. I know that some Israelis are sick of what is happening too and want things to be better and I pray for the days when those people will have more influence on how things are going. Likewise, I wish some of the Palestinians would get with the times and realize that there is no rewind button and they are never going to get a single Jewish Israeli to be forced out of the region.

Btw, one thing I've been seeing in the last few years is this idea that there was never a Palestine and there were never any Palestinians. It always provides a list of reasons why it never happened "on paper", such as the lack of a currency, national anthem, etc. at the time that Israel declared its statehood. I find this to be very misleading and racist. First of all many of the claims about a lack of agriculture and commerce are completely untrue. As is the idea that there are no indigenous people, despite the fact that there are religious communities Muslim and Christian in places like Jerusalem and Bethlehem who have been living there for hundreds of years and have deeply established traditions. Finally, they were under the rule of the Ottomans for a long time, then the British, so the lack of currency, national anthem, etc. can easily be accounted for.... many places under similar circumstances eventually became independent nations with all those things, the Palestinians just never had the chance.


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## Mexi (May 19, 2011)

The problem is zionism, not Israel's right (and Palestine's) to exist. The crazy fundamentalists on both sides are what keep progress in the region from actually taking place. however, Israel's disproportionate military responses on Palestinian civilians in response to rocket attacks is no better than the savage ways Palestinian suicide bombers kill people in a market. But like I said, Zionism is the problem, and not all Jews are Zionists.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/


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## The Somberlain (May 20, 2011)

Yes, every Israeli citizen I've met was not a fan of Netanyahu and advocates a peaceful solution. So extremism is prominent in both societies, but not prevalent. It's time for both Israelis and Palestinians to get government back into their own hands.

Oh, and Hamas is popular because of the dickwad actions of Israel and the ineffectual nature of Fatah, so forming a powerful moderate secularist movement in both countries will alleviate much of the shit.


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## TheJokker (May 20, 2011)

this has been going on for a long time. muslim countries have attacked israel multiple times in the 50's, 60's and 70's. if you start a war and lose than the winner gets the spoils. the muslims lost.

who would you rather be the dominant military power in the middle-east: israel or iran? this is really less about the palestinians and more about iran wanting to expand their power...


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## Blake1970 (May 20, 2011)

leonardo7 said:


> My opinion? Israel is a bully. The Golan Heights belong to Syria, not to Israel.


 
Syria lost the Golan Heights as punishment for attacking Israel with the Arab Coalition in 1967.


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## ArkaneDemon (May 20, 2011)

In my opinion, you can't get persecuted by pretty much everyone else for 2000 years without good reason.


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## Sollesnes (May 20, 2011)

Blake1970 said:


> Syria lost the Golan Heights as punishment for attacking Israel with the Arab Coalition in 1967.



Israel started that war.

edit:
Anyways,
I am currently studying History at the university, and have a specific class on the Palestine Conflict.. and I must say, the more I learn, the harder I see it will be to find a resolution to the conflict, but the more I learn the less respect and trust I have in Israeli politics on the matter. I have nothing against jews, of course, but I can't say I put much trust to zionist fundamentalists.


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## nostealbucket (May 20, 2011)

Its good to have an opinion and your own beliefs. But when you start killing people and destroying their lives just because you can't stand to be what you call "wrong", you're just an angry child. You can worship a rock, a speaker on your computer, or a single blade of grass for all I care, just stop killing each other because of your differences.


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## Jack Secret (May 20, 2011)

I think both sides are wrong and it's not going to change any time soon. 

I was at a local book store a few months ago where there was a group of Jewish people with a rabbi leading the group talking about the Israel/Palestine conflict and one guy was very LOUD about cursing out Palestinians. My young niece was with me and I asked the guy to chill out and watch his language so he pulls out the "anti-semite" card on me. So I say "So what do you want from them (the Palestinians) and he yells "I want them gone!". So I went "How gone do you want them?". He screams "I WANT THEM DEAD". I say "All of them?"and he goes "YES!". So I start stroking my chin and say "So you want the genocide of a particular people...where have I heard that before?......." and it was a full 2 minutes before he got the hint and stood there in shock. I tipped my cap and walked off with my niece and we hear the rabbi say "You just got out-thought by the _goyim_." and I started laughing my ass off. 

As I told them when the rabbi apologized for the guy, I'm not anti-semitic or racist and anti-anything. I just hate when people are stupid.


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## The Somberlain (May 21, 2011)

Jack Secret said:


> I think both sides are wrong and it's not going to change any time soon.
> 
> I was at a local book store a few months ago where there was a group of Jewish people with a rabbi leading the group talking about the Israel/Palestine conflict and one guy was very LOUD about cursing out Palestinians. My young niece was with me and I asked the guy to chill out and watch his language so he pulls out the "anti-semite" card on me. So I say "So what do you want from them (the Palestinians) and he yells "I want them gone!". So I went "How gone do you want them?". He screams "I WANT THEM DEAD". I say "All of them?"and he goes "YES!". So I start stroking my chin and say "So you want the genocide of a particular people...where have I heard that before?......." and it was a full 2 minutes before he got the hint and stood there in shock. I tipped my cap and walked off with my niece and we hear the rabbi say "You just got out-thought by the _goyim_." and I started laughing my ass off.
> 
> As I told them when the rabbi apologized for the guy, I'm not anti-semitic or racist and anti-anything. I just hate when people are stupid.



Palestinians are Arabs; Arabs are Semites; therefore crazy Zionists are anti-Semitic


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## S-O (May 21, 2011)

Take it away from both! Spoiled brats!

It's a seriously fucked situation, and I will be honest, I'm not a fan of Israel, or it's actions. I don't hold all Israeli people responsible, that isn't fair, but it's time to work things out before it's too late, if it isn't already.

A clear cut solution with all parties involved happy is unlikely.

If it comes down to it, I throw my hat in with the Palestinians.


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## Jakke (May 21, 2011)

Jack Secret said:


> I think both sides are wrong and it's not going to change any time soon.
> 
> I was at a local book store a few months ago where there was a group of Jewish people with a rabbi leading the group talking about the Israel/Palestine conflict and one guy was very LOUD about cursing out Palestinians. My young niece was with me and I asked the guy to chill out and watch his language so he pulls out the "anti-semite" card on me. So I say "So what do you want from them (the Palestinians) and he yells "I want them gone!". So I went "How gone do you want them?". He screams "I WANT THEM DEAD". I say "All of them?"and he goes "YES!". So I start stroking my chin and say "So you want the genocide of a particular people...where have I heard that before?......." and it was a full 2 minutes before he got the hint and stood there in shock. I tipped my cap and walked off with my niece and we hear the rabbi say "You just got out-thought by the _goyim_." and I started laughing my ass off.
> 
> As I told them when the rabbi apologized for the guy, I'm not anti-semitic or racist and anti-anything. I just hate when people are stupid.



Great story brah, I love when religious leaders are more moderate than their herd

Fundamentalism on both sides hinders a peace process


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## omentremor (May 22, 2011)

As an Australian one of the thing that amazes me is how distorted the American press coverage is. At many media outlets it is compulsive to refer to any Palestinian act of violence as an 'attack', and Israeli violence as 'retaliation'. There was also an incredible lack of coverage about Israeli forces demolishing Palestinian homes due to them not having a housing permit, which is practically impossible to get if you're Palestinian. Plus, Israeli settlements are being built in militarily strategic locations, such as on higher ground.
[googlevid]4054523048548733881[/googlevid] - Phenomenal Noam Chomsky lecture on the war on terrorism detailing UN security council peace resolutions vetoed by the US.
Both nations have a right to exist, but no nation should forcibly annex land, whilst forcing millions into refugee status.


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## Jack Secret (May 22, 2011)

If you ever want to see an HONEST account of what's going on with both sides, get Jimmy Carter's documentary Man From Plains. It recounts his book tour explaining his thoughts on the Israeli/Palestine conflict and how Israel, even after Carter orchestrated peace between them and Egypt years before, Israel turned on him and hit him with every low blow they could and he just kept on keepin' on. Carter is awesome.


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## daemon barbeque (May 22, 2011)

omentremor said:


> As an Australian one of the thing that amazes me is how distorted the American press coverage is. At many media outlets it is compulsive to refer to any Palestinian act of violence as an 'attack', and Israeli violence as 'retaliation'. There was also an incredible lack of coverage about Israeli forces demolishing Palestinian homes due to them not having a housing permit, which is practically impossible to get if you're Palestinian. Plus, Israeli settlements are being built in militarily strategic locations, such as on higher ground.
> [googlevid]4054523048548733881[/googlevid] - Phenomenal Noam Chomsky lecture on the war on terrorism detailing UN security council peace resolutions vetoed by the US.
> Both nations have a right to exist, but no nation should forcibly annex land, whilst forcing millions into refugee status.



"it needs a very good education to miss it"... That's exactly what's happening today!


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## leonardo7 (May 28, 2011)

We must all be aware and know that the Jewish lobby (who fully supports Israel by the way) owns the US media and not just some of it but just about ALL OF IT! This includes Time Warner, CNN, FOX, The Wall Street Journal......


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## Guitarman700 (May 28, 2011)

leonardo7 said:


> We must all be aware and know that the Jewish lobby (who fully supports Israel by the way) owns the US media and not just some of it but just about ALL OF IT! This includes Time Warner, CNN, FOX, The Wall Street Journal......



Are we going to start the "Jews run the world" Thing again?
Here's some facts about this so called "Jewish Lobby" 
Jewish lobby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But then, they own wikipedia too, right?


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## Jakke (May 28, 2011)

My highschool physcs teacher once worked as a suprevisor for a young neo-nazi. He told us that he had never heard more crappy conspiracy theories about jews than under that short time... 

The jews were apparently to blame for everything, even if he stubbed his toe, it was the work of the jews


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## Overtone (May 31, 2011)

Honestly the most racist and paranoid things that I've heard said against Jews were from Greeks. One guy even suggested that they invented Christianity and Islam as a way to make gentiles more generous with their money. It was hard not to go "coockoo" and start tapping my temple. That's one of the things that pisses me off about how Palestinians are portrayed. It's in Europe that all the conspiracies and mistrust and feelings of superiority were born. The Arabs pre-1948 really had very few problems with the Jews and helped many hide during WW II. In fact Muslims were the first people to allow Jews to return to Jerusalem after they were exiled by the Romans. There were some hostilities in Palestine leading up to '48, but if you look at the history the zionists were much more violent during that timeframe and the Palestinians were usually not reacting to increased Jewish presence, but to Zionists literally shouting to everybody that such and such sacred temple would now be under Jewish control. So it's kind of frustrating to see how many people think that the problem is because Palestinians have something against Jews as a people rather than understanding that they have a legitimate grievance against particular Jews. But then you have the Palestinians who over the last 60 years have bought into the racism and conspiracy theories and whatnot, which is admittedly a lot of them. I guess at the end what I'm trying to say is that the racism is there but it is more of a reaction to the occupation than a genuine belief that Jews are a "bad" race.


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## KingAenarion (Jun 6, 2011)

There are times I wish I was Superman... so many people that I would just pick up and put on small desert Islands to live out the remainder of their years... while also telling them to chill the fuck out...


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## titan amps (Jun 12, 2011)

I still haven't gotten a satisfactory explanation of why we give Israel so much money every year.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 12, 2011)

I don't see why they're so surprised that so many Palestinians want to kill them so badly. I can assure you, if you kicked me, my family, and neighbors out and maybe killed my parents/loved ones I would definitely try to kill you.


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## AySay (Jun 12, 2011)

titan amps said:


> I still haven't gotten a satisfactory explanation of why we give Israel so much money every year.



To defend themselves from all those children throwing rocks...


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## Daemoniac (Jun 12, 2011)

^ Because they're Israel.

I think that's about the sum of it :nopleaseL


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## Ripper1134 (Jun 14, 2011)

McKay said:


> Opinions?



wow israelis are dicks


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## K3V1N SHR3DZ (Jun 14, 2011)

The influence of eschaton-obsessed christian fundamentalists, and opportunism in the military-industrial complex cannot be understated.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jun 14, 2011)

Brave thread. I'll just say this:

1913 - founding year of the following institutions:

Federal reserve, IRS, FBI and Anti Defamation League


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jun 16, 2011)

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> Brave thread. I'll just say this:
> 
> 1913 - founding year of the following institutions:
> 
> Federal reserve, IRS, FBI and Anti Defamation League


 

Uh... the FBI was founded in 1908, and received its its first official mission in 1910 and its current title in 1935.


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## Overtone (Jun 27, 2011)

http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/news/middle-east/2524-israel-exhumes-100-new-tombs-in-jerusalems-historic-maman-allah-cemetery
Museum of Tolerance... now that is ironic. 

Good luck to the flotillas!


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## The Grief Hole (Jun 28, 2011)

titan amps said:


> I still haven't gotten a satisfactory explanation of why we give Israel so much money every year.



Because they probably give your government a massive cut in price on their massively advanced security technology that they sell to every other country on the planet for sh*tloads. 

Neither side is in the right here. Though it may have helped if Israel hadn't been relocated to a spot surrounded by countries whose religious doctrine is particularly anti-Semitic (not that there aren't examples of that in the bible).


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## The Somberlain (Jun 29, 2011)

The Grief Hole said:


> Because they probably give your government a massive cut in price on their massively advanced security technology that they sell to every other country on the planet for sh*tloads.
> 
> Neither side is in the right here. Though it may have helped if Israel hadn't been relocated to a spot surrounded by countries whose religious doctrine is particularly anti-Semitic (not that there aren't examples of that in the bible).



Well, scarcely populated areas of Alaska and Australia were offered, but the Zionists were like, "oh no thanks, well take a piece of land without much raw material, and with a shitload of people who once tolerated us as 'people of the book,' but we'll cause them to hate us by firing missiles on them every two years and taking their homes." So, there's our dilemma.


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## The Grief Hole (Jun 29, 2011)

I didn't know that. Can't imagine why they refused Alaska or Australia.


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## The Somberlain (Jun 29, 2011)

The Grief Hole said:


> I didn't know that. Can't imagine why they refused Alaska or Australia.



Zionism has a peculiar fascination with a small strip of land that only has theological value.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jun 30, 2011)

From anecdotal evidence, a Jewish friend, "massively advanced security technology" is missile guidance technology. All their other weapons are American, so far as I know.

The obsession with the region concerns the artifacts and locations of ancient myth, notably the temple mount / dome of the rock / king solomon's temple, which is a serious ideological foundation for both muslim's, jews and others.

Solomon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are many other areas of archeological interest in the disputed regions.

@grandmofftim; FBI founded 1908. Thanks for the correction! 

There is an excellent/worth reading rebuttal from the Anti Defamation League regarding common complaints with the content of the Talmud here:

ADL Says Extremists Use The Talmud to Promote Anti-Semitism

Here is a funny interview with an Israeli spokes person, regarding a recently published Phd thesis/book; "Zionist Israel and Apartheid South Africa". Slightly sad to see defensive natures causing so much confusion that the debate loses all clarity...



And another interesting debate from PressTV


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## Overtone (Jul 3, 2011)

The Grief Hole said:


> Neither side is in the right here. Though it may have helped if Israel hadn't been relocated to a spot surrounded by countries whose religious doctrine is particularly anti-Semitic (not that there aren't examples of that in the bible).




I take offense to this kind of misinformation. Maybe it's an honest mistake on your part, but it's also something that gets repeated again and again and is inaccurate and hurts the Palestinian position. Given that the Palestinians have no bargaining power right now their only choice is to wait things out, which means that the passage of time cannot be allowed to wipe out their true story. The Israeli tactic is a war of attrition, both in a physical sense and in the intellectual/academic sense. 

-The people in that region ARE semitic... how can they be anti-semitic?
-The first people to let Jews back into Jerusalem after they were banished by the Romans were Muslims. 
-The Quran is not against the Jewish religion and says to treat them as neighbors.
-Palestine has a rich Christian history in addition to the Muslim history. 
-There is a long history of Jews living comfortably in the mid-east and north africa, and there are even many cases where gentiles helped Jews hide from persecution during WW II. 
-The Jews who moved to the area in the 1900s didn't really face any animosity until they started to declare a state and claim certain religious sites as their own. 
-Saying Israel was "relocated" is just plain wrong... it was basically created by immigration of Jews from many different countries... to have been relocated it would have had to have been a country elsewhere first. 
-Prior to the Zionists declaring their intention to annex land and create a state there really isn't much history of anti Jewish actions by Arabs/Muslims... it was really much more of a problem in Europe, where you had centuries of mistrust, persecution, and at 2 points (crusades and WW II) genocide. There is a multitude of European hate propoganda against the Jews, but I don't think I've EVER seen an example of Arab propoganda against them pre-1940's.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 4, 2011)

Overtone said:


> I take offense to this kind of misinformation. Maybe it's an honest mistake on your part, but it's also something that gets repeated again and again and is inaccurate and hurts the Palestinian position. Given that the Palestinians have no bargaining power right now their only choice is to wait things out, which means that the passage of time cannot be allowed to wipe out their true story. The Israeli tactic is a war of attrition, both in a physical sense and in the intellectual/academic sense.
> 
> -The people in that region ARE semitic... how can they be anti-semitic?
> -The first people to let Jews back into Jerusalem after they were banished by the Romans were Muslims.
> ...



Well put sir!


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## The Grief Hole (Jul 4, 2011)

Overtone said:


> I take offense to this kind of misinformation. Maybe it's an honest mistake on your part, but it's also something that gets repeated again and again and is inaccurate and hurts the Palestinian position. Given that the Palestinians have no bargaining power right now their only choice is to wait things out, which means that the passage of time cannot be allowed to wipe out their true story. The Israeli tactic is a war of attrition, both in a physical sense and in the intellectual/academic sense.
> 
> -The people in that region ARE semitic... how can they be anti-semitic?
> -The first people to let Jews back into Jerusalem after they were banished by the Romans were Muslims.
> ...



Relocation was a very poor choice of words and for that I do apologise. It seems we have some differing opinions on this which I might just highlight (and before I do may I just point out I do so without malice. I find this a genuinely interesting subject and relish hearing the opinion).


- Firstly, you are correct. The phrase anti-semitic is a complete mistake. As you say, the epithet applies to all the people of that entire region. However, the meaning has become synonymous with the Jewish people. I would go so far as to reckon that most people who have read this post did not know the extent of its applications (ready to stand corrected).

- The Qur'an does indeed say treat the Jewish man as a neighbour. However, when a book is as riddled with contradictions as the Qur'an is we often have these differing opinions. The Jews are also pictured as objects of ridicule in the Qur'an. chapter 5:60-64 "I see that Jewish people are called as those whom Allah has cursed, is angry with them and has turned them into apes and swine". Whilst the Rabbis and Priests are depicted as clean and pure, sinners from any religion are treated as worthy of death. There are plenty of quotes to dredge up here but I'm sure googling it will save some space and time.

- Palestine does have a rich heritage owing to the protection of religious travellers journeying through those regions. However, the point is utterly irrelevant.

- There is indeed a long history of Jewish people living safely in those areas in the areas you mentioned. There is also a long history of Jewish people being persecuted in these areas. A quote from Martin Gilbert "I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mahommedan."

There was a massacre of Jews in Bagdhad in 1828. The Jewish quarter of Meshed was destroyed in 1839. Holy Scriptures etc. were publicly burnt. The Barfurush massacre of 1867. Morocco,1864. Tunis, 1869. And in 1891 the leading Muslims in Jerusalem petitioned the Ottomans to prohibit Jews from Russia entering the area. But, yes you are right there were people also living happily at that time. Such is life.

Now this next bit is where you are unfortunately misinformed. Currently in the middle east there is a massive anti-semitic (or anti-Jewish if you aren't feeling that gay about my first point) wave happening as we speak. Arabic and Egyptian media still report that 'blood libel' is alive and happening. If you ever travel to somewhere like Egypt or Dubai, both of which I have had the pleasure to go to you will find an inherent hatred of the Jewish people in both places. My friends from Abu Dhabi, whilst very nice, couldn't be more vitriolic when talking about the jews. Look it up. There is plenty there for you to see.

I think that addresses you're next two points.

- Yes. I conceded. Relocation was a very poor choice of words. It (Israel) was created by the partitioning of Palestine by the UN sometime last century. (I'm guessing after the war). Israel declared independence on 14th of May, 1948. An easy date to remember because the next day armies from the neighbouring Arab states invaded Israel and the whole shebang that we are debating now kicked off. So it is a war. Yes, people on both sides are being hurt but I stand by my original comment. And I'm very sorry Daemon BBQ, but I personally thought it wasn't very well put.

And Ryan, I assume that the moniker 'security technology' sounds much better to potential investors (i.e. banks, large companies and their shareholders/ general public) than 'war stuff' or 'death machines'. Don't you? You are quite correct (as far as I know) about the holy places of the region and that is a whole longer reply in itself.


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## TheJokker (Jul 4, 2011)

imagine you moved to a neighborhood surrounded by gangs who claimed everywhere you went as their turf and they were determined to kick your ass and kill you. little by little you defended yourself and defeated gang after gang taking their turf. where there was once ruin and decay there is now communities and a prospering economy.

now some people want to call you the ass-hole and to give back the turf to those nice criminals. such is the story of israel.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jul 4, 2011)

> I assume that the moniker 'security technology' sounds much better to potential investors



Just as PMC (private military contractor) sounds better than mercenaries? 

yeah, it does sadden me that genius and wealth are expended on ways to destroy the bodies of human beings, when interaction between human beings is the only commodity of value.

I just wanted to say the the term semite was designed to describe people who speak the hebrew language and it's derivatives. It describes people of many nationalities. There is more to that term and it's origins but you will have to look for yourself.

If you watch the videos I posted a lot of historical controversies are discussed which you may wish to research for yourself.

The book of revelations has a harsh prediction for the state of israel, predicting the apocalypse and final judgment of humanity when it falls. This has lead to the evangelical movement being very interested in the region. This prophetic view is very tragic, highlighting the significance of the worship sites I mentioned previously. There is a LOT of cultist propaghanda on these topics so research at your peril.

My understanding is many Jewish people see the zionist agenda as unconscionable, including israeli's. The interview I posted shows a Phd thesis/book comparing zionist israel to apartheid south africa. The similarities with wall builders for population control throughout history are quite apparent.

What a sorry state of affairs for humanity - when religious leaders and totalist visionaries control populaces at the expense of life and dignity. History is littered with many societies who wielded such goals.

But isn't it the same with all empires? 

I've enjoyed the thoughtful posts here.


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## The Grief Hole (Jul 4, 2011)

Exactly.

I had read that some Catholics believe that the new messiah (who may or may not be a very naughty boy) will arrive once the Jews have been wiped out. I think it is in the book the God Delusion where he mentions that this belief may have something to do with the UN choosing that particular site for Israel. 

You are correct about the term semite (as far s I know). But as I shamelessly hinted in the previous reply, it seems to have gone the way of words like 'gay', 'queer', 'bomb' etc.


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## Overtone (Jul 4, 2011)

The Grief Hole said:


> Relocation was a very poor choice of words and for that I do apologise. It seems we have some differing opinions on this which I might just highlight (and before I do may I just point out I do so without malice. I find this a genuinely interesting subject and relish hearing the opinion).
> 
> 
> - Firstly, you are correct. The phrase anti-semitic is a complete mistake. As you say, the epithet applies to all the people of that entire region. However, the meaning has become synonymous with the Jewish people. I would go so far as to reckon that most people who have read this post did not know the extent of its applications (ready to stand corrected).
> ...




Good post. I was unaware of those massacres, and those parts of the Quran. I still posit that before the Zionist events of the 1900s the attitude towards Jews was _in general_ not very antagonistic and that the antagonism came after these events. Like I said, there are many examples of them living in harmony there, and far fewer conspiracy theories and the like when compared to Europe. 

I don't think the history of all religions having a presence in Palestine during the Arab/Muslim times is irrelevant, it goes to show that there was nothing inherently against the Jews until the last century, and that they could have had a presence there and been accepted if things hadn't gone the way they did. As for Martin Gilbert, he was openly a Zionist, so how can his words be taken as a fair representation of the situation?

I didn't claim that there are not anti-Jewish sentiments these days. What I said was that I don't think I've ever seen print or other propoganda against Jews coming from the middle east pre-1900s, whereas there is a lot from Europe. Obviously things are tense now.

Finally, if you believe that the violence began when the Arab League attacked (not saying you do, but if you do), it began well before then with the likes of the Irgun. Yes, there was violence from both sides, but the Zionist presence had made the homeland of many bystanders an unsafe place. There are many who fled months/years prior to the Arab League attack.


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## Overtone (Jul 4, 2011)

TheJokker said:


> imagine you moved to a neighborhood surrounded by gangs who claimed everywhere you went as their turf and they were determined to kick your ass and kill you. little by little you defended yourself and defeated gang after gang taking their turf. where there was once ruin and decay there is now communities and a prospering economy.
> 
> now some people want to call you the ass-hole and to give back the turf to those nice criminals. such is the story of israel.



you really are a jokker... your example would be more correct if you mentioned "you" declaring the neighborhood as your gang's own turf without even trying to negotiate with the surrounding gangs. Nevermind the offensiveness of referring to an entire region as criminal gangsters.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 4, 2011)

Well I am not willing to type my all knowledge and opinions since there are pletyfull all over the ss org forum, spread in many threads.
I am not an anti semite. I am just anti-barbarism, anti bullies, anti spoiled brats, anti self-rightiousness.

1) Israel killed and still kills more than 1000 fold of it's losses. We don't even talk about tortures, cutting the water, electricity, destroying infrastructure etc. So who are the gangs? Who is the bully?
2) It's well documented that the idea of creating the Israel in the middle east was because of it's convinience. It was clear that those Arabs are easier to kick out than anything else. Look at how Israel is growing, and tell me this is just because Israel protects itself. 
3) The Qouran might be having contardictions etc, but Torah is not better. Deeming the Jews the chosen ones, and everone else worthless is not less pathetic. Typical for most religions.
4)Israel is senctioned so many times in the U.N and saved by the U.S.. This can show you Israels wrong doings, perfectly,factually proven and written. There is no room for discussion or adifferent perspectives here. There are international laws, which somehow never aplly to Israel. This is favoritism and the only reason why Israel could have it's wealth. The U.S. and the leeching of the Arabs.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 4, 2011)

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> I just wanted to say the the term semite was designed to describe people who speak the hebrew language and it's derivatives. It describes people of many nationalities. There is more to that term and it's origins but you will have to look for yourself.


 

Slight correction: It's to describe people who speak a semitic language, that is to say, a language that is a member of the semitic language family. Both Hebrew and Arabic are semitic languages, but Arabic is not a derivative of Hebrew.


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## The Grief Hole (Jul 4, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Well I am not willing to type my all knowledge and opinions since there are pletyfull all over the ss org forum, spread in many threads.
> I am not an anti semite. I am just anti-barbarism, anti bullies, anti spoiled brats, anti self-rightiousness.
> 
> 1) Israel killed and still kills more than 1000 fold of it's losses. We don't even talk about tortures, cutting the water, electricity, destroying infrastructure etc. So who are the gangs? Who is the bully?
> ...




Israel does seem to have more protection than others. I mean the UN usually stamp out wrong doing the minute it starts happening. Hahahahah. Not. The UN is the worlds most pathetically inactive political body. Cambodia, Darfur the list is endless. 

your point about the Qur'an is nitpicking. I was highlighting the fact that it contains contradictions not exalting it above the Qur'an (which incidentally mentions the purity of the Torah and Talmud, as it writes that it has come from the same Divine source as itself).

It might be well documented (and believe me I shall try and find documents from the UN saying specifically that moving Jews to a country that has just been literally divided would be easy!!!) but as some have mentioned they were offered alternatives and refused because of the connection they have a religious affinity with that area (and such things are very important to most Asian - in the older sense of the term - religions). As for its growth I don't begrudge them that. Find me a country that hasn't done similar. 

Incidentally your point about the 1000 fold retribution, whilst being an inaccurate number, is something that is not exclusive to the Jews. There is systematic genocide going on in quite a few countries that makes the casualties of the Israel/ Palestine conflict look like a sorority pillow fight. Some of the reports coming out of the Congo at the moment make me think the people fighting might not actually be human. The massacres of the tribes in Myanmar is repulsive and I personally believe the UN should be disbanded for its lack of activity in preventing it. Having said that, suffering is not something that can be weighted and the world would be a better place without it. Sadly, I don't see that happening.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 5, 2011)

The Grief Hole said:


> Israel does seem to have more protection than others. I mean the UN usually stamp out wrong doing the minute it starts happening. Hahahahah. Not. The UN is the worlds most pathetically inactive political body. Cambodia, Darfur the list is endless.
> 
> your point about the Qur'an is nitpicking. I was highlighting the fact that it contains contradictions not exalting it above the Qur'an (which incidentally mentions the purity of the Torah and Talmud, as it writes that it has come from the same Divine source as itself).
> 
> ...



Well written answer.
But it fails in some points.
Just because others do it too doesn't make it right. Israel is a furious Bully and U.S.A and people like you support the bully.
The expansion makes the surrounded people reactive. If the bully pushes you, you hit back. 
The UN is a lazy organisation, that is true. But all the single handed VETOs, pulle dby the U.S causes no solution in Israel. How many resolutions are handed out and vetoed by the U.S.? This alone should answer all your points.


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## The Grief Hole (Jul 5, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Well written answer.
> But it fails in some points.
> Just because others do it too doesn't make it right. Israel is a furious Bully and U.S.A and people like you support the bully.
> The expansion makes the surrounded people reactive. If the bully pushes you, you hit back.
> The UN is a lazy organisation, that is true. But all the single handed VETOs, pulle dby the U.S causes no solution in Israel. How many resolutions are handed out and vetoed by the U.S.? This alone should answer all your points.



Looking back it is not a well written answer. It is a reactionary and imprecise answer. Much like your response. And you know what? At the moment I'm drunk enough to call you on your lack of knowledge/ over use of bullshit third hand information. At least Overtone had the good grace to offer some counter arguments to my longer post which I have looked into and can see where he/ she/ they is/are coming from. You however are currently spinning a web of bollocks.

Your last couple of sentences makes very little sense and your first couple are entirely based on your negative opinion about me. The US alone doesn't veto policy/ articulation of policy regarding Israel. They only vetoe their involvement with it.It is a UN job. And here we go to....

Lazy? The UN aren't lazy! They are fucking supine. For Christ's sake. Look at the history of the UN and their action during and after any kind of genocide that has gone on. To put it in a language you might understand watch 'Hotel Rwanda' or read the biography of the Belgian Commander of the region at the time. Better still, Read about the UN's non-involvement in Cambodia, Russia in Afghanistan (I know people who fought and lived there at the time there so don't you dare come back with anything about that!), Rwanda,Darfur, the Congo, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, El Salvador, Kosovo, Iran, Iraq.. there is a long list.

Yeah, just cause others do it,doesn't make it right. I call bullshit on that because war isn't right and yet still it carries on. And if you don't know why then PM me. I cant be bothered to hang an idiot like you out to dry publicly and I am definitely done with this, at times, fascinating post.

And now I will apologise. I have been drinking some very nice San Diego beers, listening to some good metal, and had a positively soul enriching walk through a bamboo forest today (saw a Kingfisher working and the BIGGEST tadpole ever). I'm a bastard at the best of times but to come back and have you misconstrue my original comments in to a pro-Israeli tract kind of misses the point. My honest opinion is that any religious war in this day and age is pathetic. No questions, full on pathetic. I mean have your personal beliefs etc. but the minute the state is acting on those beliefs (which aren't always the majority beliefs) that is a sad state of affairs. The points I have tried to make on this post is that there are no easy answers. Both sides are very guilty. Read them again before responding cause your response is going to be quite lonely.


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## TheJokker (Jul 5, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *TheJokker* 

 
_imagine you moved to a neighborhood surrounded by gangs who claimed everywhere you went as their turf and they were determined to kick your ass and kill you. little by little you defended yourself and defeated gang after gang taking their turf. where there was once ruin and decay there is now communities and a prospering economy.

now some people want to call you the ass-hole and to give back the turf to those nice criminals. such is the story of israel._


Overtone said:


> you really are a jokker... your example would be more correct if you mentioned "you" declaring the neighborhood as your gang's own turf without even trying to negotiate with the surrounding gangs. Nevermind the offensiveness of referring to an entire region as criminal gangsters.


and your argument might be more correct if you mentioned that palestine was partitioned by the UN in 1947 and jewish settlers were invited to settle in the region. So yes; negotiations were conducted by a third-party international organization.

israel tried to live in peace but were repeatedly attacked by surrounding arab nations who were defeated. the arabs "lost" the territory as a result and it now rightfully belongs to israel.

(nevermind the offensiveness of referring to israel as the aggressor when they are only defending their homes and families from terrorists)


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 5, 2011)

The Grief Hole said:


> Looking back it is not a well written answer. It is a reactionary and imprecise answer. Much like your response. And you know what? At the moment I'm drunk enough to call you on your lack of knowledge/ over use of bullshit third hand information. At least Overtone had the good grace to offer some counter arguments to my longer post which I have looked into and can see where he/ she/ they is/are coming from. You however are currently spinning a web of bollocks.
> 
> Your last couple of sentences makes very little sense and your first couple are entirely based on your negative opinion about me. The US alone doesn't veto policy/ articulation of policy regarding Israel. They only vetoe their involvement with it.It is a UN job. And here we go to....
> 
> ...



C'mon man, give me a good answer when you are sober will you!?
My answer was not pointing at anything you wrote, because you fight an unwinnable fight. I need no counter arguments, because you counterd me first.
You clearly use the UN's inability to do anything or other wars in the earth as an argument, which is not an argument at all. The situation of Israel is unique.

Israel is wrong, was wrong, was build on wrongs and will be wrong in the future as long as they do as they do. Period. If you can argue with that, put your facts on the table. Not the other wars, the wrongs of the UN in other wars etc. We talk about Israel, and you clearly take a stance to protect them. 


BTW, no 3. hand stuff here. I can hear, can see, can talk and can read. I have fellow friends from Plastine, so I have friends and co-workers from Israel or Jewish origin.All of these abilities and contacts let me filter what I see and what I hear. I read in 4 languages, follow many different news sources. I know the Bias I get in all these media sources.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 5, 2011)

TheJokker said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TheJokker*
> 
> 
> ...



This is exactly the twisted reality. Look at the maps in the first page. How come you just try to live in peace buy stealing land from others, Day by day?


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## TheJokker (Jul 8, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> This is exactly the twisted reality. Look at the maps in the first page. How come you just try to live in peace buy stealing land from others, Day by day?


israel did not "steal" the land; arabs "lost" the land during the wars they (the arabs) started. read some history instead of anti-israel propaganda. israel was repeatedly attacked during it's early years and each time they beat back the attackers they gained a little more surrounding territory.

there is a price to starting a war and losing and in the case of the arabs the price was land.


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## Overtone (Jul 8, 2011)

Whats the excuse for continually expanding settlements within the land that Israel, according to international law does not own? This is ongoing, so it can't be attributed to taking the spoils of war a la golan heights


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## Mexi (Jul 8, 2011)

exactly. how can anyone justify the bulldozing of palestinian homes to make jewish ones in the west bank? the land is not theirs, yet they act as if they own it. it's not right no matter how you slice it.


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## TheJokker (Jul 8, 2011)

Overtone said:


> Whats the excuse for continually expanding settlements within the land that Israel, according to international law does not own? This is ongoing, so it can't be attributed to taking the spoils of war a la golan heights


again look at history and stop drinking the hamas kool-aid:

Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"2005 - Israel's unilateral disengagement"

"Hamas control (2007present)"

summary: israel withdraws from gaza; hamas takes control. hamas wages war on israel by launching mortar and rocket attacks. israel responds in self-defense.

again: if you start a war and lose...


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## Overtone (Jul 8, 2011)

It's the west bank I'm talking about, not gaza. If you really are going to try to suggest expanding settlements in the west bank is a response to mortar attacks coming from gaza, how do you explain the fact that they were expanding the w bank settlements BEFORE 2005?


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## Zorkuus (Jul 16, 2011)

Sollesnes said:


> Israel started that war.


No they didn't. If you want to put the "blame" on someone then put it on Britain for giving the land (which was theirs through the British mandate for Palestine) to jews. Isreal didn't start a war, they didn't attack anyone.


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## McKay (Jul 16, 2011)

Zorkuus said:


> No they didn't. If you want to put the "blame" on someone then put it on Britain for giving the land (which was theirs through the British mandate for Palestine) to jews. Isreal didn't start a war, they didn't attack anyone.



Google the following:

Haganah. Irgun Zvai Leumi. Stern Gang.


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## Zorkuus (Jul 16, 2011)

McKay said:


> Google the following:
> 
> Haganah. Irgun Zvai Leumi. Stern Gang.


*Google it* is not an argument. If you want to present your case, do it using your own words instead of shifting the burden of research on me. At the very least have the integrity and patience to quote something from your sources, or give direct links to the sites you want me to look at. How am I supposed to know what your argument is when you refer to a few search words which may contain dozens of different search results and each result containing dozens of different things?

Infact I think the *google it* "argument" should be classified as a new logical fallacy. It's so common place today.


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## McKay (Jul 16, 2011)

Zorkuus said:


> *Google it* is not an argument. If you want to present your case, do it using your own words instead of shifting the burden of research on me. At the very least have the integrity and patience to quote something from your sources, or give direct links to the sites you want me to look at. How am I supposed to know what your argument is when you refer to a few search words which may contain dozens of different search results and each result containing dozens of different things?
> 
> Infact I think the *google it* "argument" should be classified as a new logical fallacy. It's so common place today.



It's a subtle way of calling you ignorant.


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## Zorkuus (Jul 16, 2011)

McKay said:


> It's a subtle way of calling you ignorant.


So you admit you had no argument, just an ad hominem? Gotcha


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## McKay (Jul 17, 2011)

Zorkuus said:


> So you admit you had no argument, just an ad hominem? Gotcha



You got me. You really should check out those three groups though. When the mood strikes me I write longwinded replies and recently the mood hasn't struck me.


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## Overtone (Jul 19, 2011)

Its really not hard to see why he mentioned those groups if you look at their wikipedia pages and keep an eye out for attacks that took place leading up to 1948.


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