# Carvin/ Kiesel comparable to PRS?



## Wolfos (Mar 31, 2017)

Hey guys I'm buying a 6 string before I get a house this summer so it will probably be my last guitar (maybe) and I want to make the right choice.

I'm really digging the PRS ce24 and custom 24 models but recently have been seeing a few Carvin CT6T models (basically their version of a PRS) on reverb at a pretty good price. 

I think they look pretty nice but since there completely custom ordered there's no way I can play one to judge it. The model that I'm looking at on reverb actually has better wood choices than the PRS models I was saving up for and it's about $700CAD cheaper too. The only info I can find on them are from owners who gush over the quality until I read that terrible Kiesel thread a few links down from here *shudder.*

Can anyone else help explain Carvin/Kiesel a bit better for me ? Should I drop $2200+ on a PRS or $1400 total on a nice looking Carvin CT6T? I have to note the carvin will be used so I can't return it if I don't like it.

Thanks in advance!


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## TheKindred (Apr 1, 2017)




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## noise in my mind (Apr 1, 2017)

Bro, no.


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## Dawn of the Shred (Apr 1, 2017)

No!


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 1, 2017)

lol no
and lol at "my last guitar"
famous last words. uttered by everyone at one time or another.


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## SnowfaLL (Apr 1, 2017)

lol what a troll thread.. admit it, you made this just to get 50 pages of kiesel bashing going on.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 1, 2017)

i have no idea. if it was me, I'd just buy the guitar I want. If you want the kiesel, get it. if you want the prs, get it.


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## Seventhwave (Apr 1, 2017)

Having owned both... IMO, nope.


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## Wolfos (Apr 1, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> lol what a troll thread.. admit it, you made this just to get 50 pages of kiesel bashing going on.



No man not at all like I said I cant try one out so I don't know how they play. I've had a dozen people tell me how great they are and haven't heard a bad thing until that kiesel thread.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 1, 2017)

The prs is more expensive for a reason.


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## soliloquy (Apr 1, 2017)

I have a carvin ct424m
I could afford a prs but went with a carvin simply because what i was looking for wasnt available in prs in that particular price range. Didnt want to go custom shop on it. 

Carvins are decent.
Up until recently, never truely got along with any prs, safe for a few here and there. 

If i was to do it all again, id go with prs perhaps.


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## technomancer (Apr 1, 2017)

Owned both, still have multiple PRS guitars. IMHO based on my experience nope. YMMV


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## SnowfaLL (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos said:


> No man not at all like I said I cant try one out so I don't know how they play. I've had a dozen people tell me how great they are and haven't heard a bad thing until that kiesel thread.



Well I just mean, a quick look on this site and you wont get any unbiased opinions on the quality of Kiesels on these forums. People hate them so much, that they forget about the guitars themselves. 

If you want my opinion, I would take a no-issue Kiesel or Carvin over PRS. I've had both, my Carvin ST300 would probably be taken over any guitar I can think of.. Its my only "forever" guitar. And for the price/value, I would take a CT6 or CT7 under $2k vs a $6k+ PRS. But the issue nowadays with Kiesel is getting one without issues. Ordering new is a risk. If you are buying used, and it has stainless steel frets, and the rest of the specs are what you want, then I'd buy a used Carvin over a new PRS, yes. Try to play it first, make sure its not a lemon, but my last used CT6 at $1500 CDN was a complete badass guitar, kinda wish I didn't sell it. For my preferences, I would take it over any PRS not from their private stock. If you have to order both new, I'd probably go PRS through a dealer so you can return it if there are issues.

But as we've seen people say in the other thread, apparently a $200 chinese guitar is better than a K-Series Kiesel. Thats the opinion of most people these days because of the hatred spawned from their poor customer service. While I get the customer service is a major issue, to discredit the guitars completely because of it, is just comical, but not surprising of an internet forum.


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## budda (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos said:


> No man not at all like I said I cant try one out so I don't know how they play. I've had a dozen people tell me how great they are and haven't heard a bad thing until that kiesel thread.



Since you can actually try the PRS first, go buy it.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 1, 2017)

The 3 Carvins I had would stand up to any guitar. They played as good as any PRS or anything I played. They stacked up to my 4k Parker in playability. I had 2 solid color ones and one flamed maple one and they finish was top notch as well as the wood selections. I moved them because I went back to 6 strings, but I would have kept them other than that.

So are they as good as PRS? In my experience, with the 3 I had, absolutely. Now it seems since Jeff took over the company and they became Kiesel, .... has gone down hill. I'm seeing bad press about them everywhere.

So in summary, I would absolutely order a Carvin with the same confidence as a PRS say, 5 years ago.(And a fraction of the price). A CNC is a CNC when it comes to making a guitar playable. These days though, Kiesel seems like a bag of dicks the way they treat their customers in addition to the manufacturing blunders they make and then won't address makes me say stay far away.

Anyway, thats MY experience.

(The resale value on a PRS also stays high while Kiesel/Carvin goes in the pooper)


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## ihunda (Apr 1, 2017)

Come on guys, Carvin/Kiesel produce great guitars, don't let their ....ty customer service situation at the present moment get in the way of enjoying a good guitar. As someone else said, a used CT/CS with stainless steel frets, multiply neck and the finish you want is unbeatable in quality & playability per $. Then you have much much more than enough cash left to change the pickups to get the exact tone you want.


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## mnemonic (Apr 1, 2017)

Maybe the build and design issues are only present on their newer models.


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## xzacx (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos said:


> H
> Can anyone else help explain Carvin/Kiesel a bit better for me ? Should I drop $2200+ on a PRS or $1400 total on a nice looking Carvin CT6T? I have to note the carvin will be used so I can't return it if I don't like it.



It's so easy to find a used PRS in great shape for $1,400 that I would never consider the alternative. It's already taken the depreciation hit, so if you don't end up liking it you wouldn't lose nearly as much as you would on the new Carvin. I'm not even the biggest PRS fan, but it's hard to beat the value of a used one.


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## kherman (Apr 1, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Well I just mean, a quick look on this site and you wont get any unbiased opinions on the quality of Kiesels on these forums. People hate them so much, that they forget about the guitars themselves.
> 
> If you want my opinion, I would take a no-issue Kiesel or Carvin over PRS. I've had both, my Carvin ST300 would probably be taken over any guitar I can think of.. Its my only "forever" guitar. And for the price/value, I would take a CT6 or CT7 under $2k vs a $6k+ PRS. But the issue nowadays with Kiesel is getting one without issues. Ordering new is a risk. If you are buying used, and it has stainless steel frets, and the rest of the specs are what you want, then I'd buy a used Carvin over a new PRS, yes. Try to play it first, make sure its not a lemon, but my last used CT6 at $1500 CDN was a complete badass guitar, kinda wish I didn't sell it. For my preferences, I would take it over any PRS not from their private stock. If you have to order both new, I'd probably go PRS through a dealer so you can return it if there are issues.
> 
> But as we've seen people say in the other thread, apparently a $200 chinese guitar is better than a K-Series Kiesel. Thats the opinion of most people these days because of the hatred spawned from their poor customer service. While I get the customer service is a major issue, to discredit the guitars completely because of it, is just comical, but not surprising of an internet forum.




+1

I own "Carvins" . 1989 thru 2011. They are well built instruments. I would say on par to Ibby Prestige, ESP E-II, Jackson USA Select, Gibson USA, Etc..
Basically a good USA production with the ability to do upgrades.
Most people's complaints back then weren't about the build quality. But, about pickups and electronics. Which most people swap out anyways, no matter the guitar brand. So, I would say it puts Carvin in between PRS S2 and Core. 
I personally like the Lithiums, M22sd and H22n pickups. I've only had issues with their active electronics. Never with the passives. Most people bag on the electronics because they are not Orange drop caps and CTS pots.
In that whole time '89-'11. I only had to send two guitars back. My Yellow ST. The original Schaller Floyd II stripped out. They replaced it with a Kahler Steeler. No issues. Under warranty. 
The other was my '02 white DC727. The original had a truss rod issue. They built me a complete new one. No issues. Under warranty. 

I'm sad to see what's going on since the split. I really don't care for a lot of the new models. I don't like how they're slowly getting rid of the "Carvin" branded guitars. I don't like how they're restricting options now. Everything seems like it's becoming an option 50. So, I understand a lot of peoples frustration with Kiesel. 
Price hikes haven't helped either. For what I'd want, it would cost close to, if not over, the 2K mark now. I won't spend that on any guitar. So, that puts me in the used markets these days. 
Plus, my tastes have changed. I've been getting back into LPs. So, my last guitar was a Gibby LP Sig T. The other company everyone likes to bag on.


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## MetalHead40 (Apr 1, 2017)

ihunda said:


> Come on guys, Carvin/Kiesel produce great guitars



Sometimes. And that's not a poke, its a fact.


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## Zado (Apr 1, 2017)

Sure, in Jeff's dreams.


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## MetalHead40 (Apr 1, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> Maybe the build and design issues are only present on their newer models.



Nope; its on the older guitars too.

I bought an ST300c 4 years ago and it had two issues right out of the box. 

1. Crooked side dots; which really wasn't the be all end all.

2. Stripped screw hole on the nut (Floyd). Didn't notice it until I went to do my first string change a moth after receiving it. The screw hole was completely stripped. The screw might as well not even of been in there. 

Called in and got the same lackadaisical attitude from their lead tech then as I did last month with my screwed up Kiesel. He said "Well, nothing we can really do for you now other then have you ship it in on your dime and we'll put some glue in the hole. Or, you can save yourself the shipping and time and glue it yourself". 

I wanted to argue the fact that it shouldn't have been stripped, or at least sent out that way,or that this should have been warranty and they should pay shipping, but I just bit the bullet and used some gorilla glue. He was right that nothing else could really be done outside of gluing the screw in there, but its just the attitude these fuk1ng guys have.

Outside of those two issues, the guitar is great, and its still my main player after several others have come and gone.


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## budda (Apr 1, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> But he's not looking at a $6K PRS. He's looking at a $2200 PRS. And if he wants one, he can find the original for $1300.
> 
> I'd buy the PRS - the market is saturated and it's a good time to find a good deal on any of them. Hell talk to www.theguitarshop.ca and see if they can send you a stunner.
> 
> There's no reason at $1350 to buy a Kiesel unless you really want one. And since you started the thread with "I want this PRS but", follow your gut and buy the CE.


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## Jake (Apr 1, 2017)

I had a CT4 and it wasn't a bad guitar at all but it definitely wasn't on the same level as my McCarty or CE24 or my PRS SC's. The stainless steel frets were a nice touch but something about it just didn't work with me. Take with that what you will.


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## MattThePenguin (Apr 1, 2017)

Just get the PRS, I wouldn't go Carvin/Kiesel unless you wanted to spec out a 7 string that looked like a PRS. I've done this too many times where I end up "saving money" only to not get the thing I truly wanted. Ended up costing more money in the long run.


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## oracles (Apr 1, 2017)

kherman said:


> I would say on par to Jackson USA Select



No Carvin/Kiesel I've ever come across has ever been remotely close to a USA Jackson. They're built to a $1500 standard which is fine for what it is, it's about on par with a 1xxx tier Prestige. To say it rivals a USA Jackson is outright not true.


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## Petar Bogdanov (Apr 1, 2017)

MetalHead40 said:


> He was right that nothing else could really be done outside of gluing the screw in there



Ugh... They could have reamed it out an doweled it... That's what has to be done on any far-eastern guitar, to upgrade the locking nut. All it takes is hammering a 4x4mm piece of wood through a 4mm hole (in a piece of scrap metal, not the guitar), and a bit of superglue.


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## mitou (Apr 1, 2017)

oracles said:


> No Carvin/Kiesel I've ever come across has ever been remotely close to a USA Jackson. They're built to a $1500 standard which is fine for what it is, it's about on par with a 1xxx tier Prestige. To say it rivals a USA Jackson is outright not true.



Pre-Fender or custom shop I would agree. I've seen some 2003> select series Soloists that were just pieces of junk with messed up logos and misaligned strings. Not to mention the paper thin veneer tops where you can barely discern the flame (not a flaw per se, but doesn't belong on a high end USA made guitar imo).


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## Wolfos (Apr 1, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Well I just mean, a quick look on this site and you wont get any unbiased opinions on the quality of Kiesels on these forums. People hate them so much, that they forget about the guitars themselves.
> 
> If you want my opinion, I would take a no-issue Kiesel or Carvin over PRS. I've had both, my Carvin ST300 would probably be taken over any guitar I can think of.. Its my only "forever" guitar. And for the price/value, I would take a CT6 or CT7 under $2k vs a $6k+ PRS. But the issue nowadays with Kiesel is getting one without issues. Ordering new is a risk. If you are buying used, and it has stainless steel frets, and the rest of the specs are what you want, then I'd buy a used Carvin over a new PRS, yes. Try to play it first, make sure its not a lemon, but my last used CT6 at $1500 CDN was a complete badass guitar, kinda wish I didn't sell it. For my preferences, I would take it over any PRS not from their private stock. If you have to order both new, I'd probably go PRS through a dealer so you can return it if there are issues.
> 
> But as we've seen people say in the other thread, apparently a $200 chinese guitar is better than a K-Series Kiesel. Thats the opinion of most people these days because of the hatred spawned from their poor customer service. While I get the customer service is a major issue, to discredit the guitars completely because of it, is just comical, but not surprising of an internet forum.




See that's what I was looking for just specifically an opinion on the guitar as the carvin I'm looking at is used. It's got all the stats I like plus SS frets and it's $700 cheaper but I have no idea how the neck plays etc. 

I won't be in communication with kiesel at all so there won't be that potential headache. I really didn't mean to make this thread explode I just don't want to regret my next guitar purchase as the wife won't be to pleased if I buy another instead of a house lol


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## Jeffbro (Apr 1, 2017)

oracles said:


> No Carvin/Kiesel I've ever come across has ever been remotely close to a USA Jackson. They're built to a $1500 standard which is fine for what it is, it's about on par with a 1xxx tier Prestige. To say it rivals a USA Jackson is outright not true.



You claimed your self you never owned a Kiesel. If you only had Carvins then say Carvins. Your multiple USA Jacksons with wrong number of frets are now untouchable in quality.

Also there's no tiers of quality when it comes to prestiges, quit making things up, all tiers are high quality, and all tiers are close if not on par with a USA Jackson.


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## budda (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos said:


> See that's what I was looking for just specifically an opinion on the guitar as the carvin I'm looking at is used. It's got all the stats I like plus SS frets and it's $700 cheaper but I have no idea how the neck plays etc.



$700 cheaper than a brand new CE24, or a used CE24? If brand new CE, why not just save $1000 and buy a used one of those? If you're buying a house, that would be the practical move IMO.


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## Jake (Apr 1, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> You claimed your self you never owned a Kiesel. If you only had Carvins then say Carvins. Your multiple USA Jacksons with wrong number of frets are now untouchable in quality.
> 
> Also there's no tiers of quality when it comes to prestiges, quit making things up, all tiers are high quality, and all tiers are close if not on par with a USA Jackson.



I'm 100% convinced you're being paid by Kiesel to shill this hard. I've stayed quiet through the entire other thread but seriously man. Or you're actually Jeff Kiesel 

Everything I've seen Kiesel do for the past month has been the equivalent of a massive dumpster fire and they just keep making it worse with PR and Customer Service nightmares. 

I'd take a USA Jackson every day of the week over a Kiesel at this point.


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## Jeffbro (Apr 1, 2017)

Jake said:


> I'm 100% convinced you're being paid by Kiesel to shill this hard. I've stayed quiet through the entire other thread but seriously man. Or you're actually Jeff Kiesel
> 
> Everything I've seen Kiesel do for the past month has been the equivalent of a massive dumpster fire and they just keep making it worse with PR and Customer Service nightmares.
> 
> I'd take a USA Jackson every day of the week over a Kiesel at this point.



Just pointing out facts here... dude was trashing Kiesel when he never owned one, then saying they are equal to prestiges but crap compared to Jackson USA? Doesn't make sense.

$3k Jackson is better than a $1.5k Kiesel, sky is blue, captain is obvious


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## Mattykoda (Apr 1, 2017)

Still haven't found yourself a lady I see jeffbro....


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## soliloquy (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos said:


> See that's what I was looking for just specifically an opinion on the guitar as the carvin I'm looking at is used. It's got all the stats I like plus SS frets and it's $700 cheaper but I have no idea how the neck plays etc.
> 
> I won't be in communication with kiesel at all so there won't be that potential headache. I really didn't mean to make this thread explode I just don't want to regret my next guitar purchase as the wife won't be to pleased if I buy another instead of a house lol





im in milton, ontario. i got a carvin ct424. if you wanna try out the guitar


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## kherman (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos,
My apologies. 
I had no intention of turning your thread in to another slag fest. 
I was just trying to give you my personal opinion on where I felt my own carvin sat in quality compared to other Mia mij guitars.

Again, my apologies.


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## Jake (Apr 1, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Just pointing out facts here... dude was trashing Kiesel when he never owned one, then saying they are equal to prestiges but crap compared to Jackson USA? Doesn't make sense.
> 
> $3k Jackson is better than a $1.5k Kiesel, sky is blue, captain is obvious



I mean I don't agree with trashing Prestiges as my RGA321f is about on par with my EBMM JP6's but still.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 1, 2017)

Wolfos said:


> See that's what I was looking for just specifically an opinion on the guitar as the carvin I'm looking at is used. It's got all the stats I like plus SS frets and it's $700 cheaper but I have no idea how the neck plays etc.
> 
> I won't be in communication with kiesel at all so there won't be that potential headache. I really didn't mean to make this thread explode I just don't want to regret my next guitar purchase as the wife won't be to pleased if I buy another instead of a house lol



yessss. listen to the 1 person that agrees with what you already wanted to do.


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## Jeffbro (Apr 1, 2017)

Mattykoda said:


> Still haven't found yourself a lady I see jeffbro....



Don't need to talk about my life on a guitar forum, so you better close your mouth and stop obsessing about me buddy


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 1, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Don't need to talk about my life on a guitar forum, so you better close your mouth and stop obsessing about me buddy



or what.


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## LordCashew (Apr 2, 2017)

I also say if you want a PRS, get a PRS.

I got a CT6 the year they came out, and it really is a great guitar. The neck is awesome, the stainless frets are basically perfect, and the wood is beautiful. Build quality is at least as good as my Vela (yes, I realize it's not a core model), though the Vela is way more resonant unplugged. Feel and playability are certainly on par with PRS core models I've played. The Carvin sounds great to me, even with the two C22B pickups I got stock. But I've never A/B'd it with any PRS plugged in, and mine is a Vela so it's not the best comparison.

To be totally honest, the main reason I would favor PRS is purely aesthetic. I feel like the Custom and Vela shapes in particular are really pleasing from a design and style perspective, while the CT is almost there, but not quite. Totally subjective, but there are enough people with similar opinions to make me wonder if there's some sort of meaning or explanation.

If you think the Carvin is good enough in the looks department and you want to save some money, I'd say go for it, especially if it's used. If you need it to sound exactly like a PRS, you could put PRS pickups in it, right? But if for any reason you'd really rather have a PRS, I's say just get one if you can. As mentioned above, you'll probably still want one eventually if that's the case...


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## prlgmnr (Apr 2, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> or what.



Or he'll stamp his little feet so hard he breaks his ankles.


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## marcwormjim (Apr 2, 2017)

Lay off the poor guy. He suffers from manic depression, colitis, asthma, gout, piles, ingrowing toenails, and sexual problems (his last hard-on was in 2006). The last thing he needs is people mocking him.

Apologies to thread-maker. As many have pointed out, there are no shortage of used PRSs vetted to be less of a gamble than...the alternative.


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## Jeffbro (Apr 2, 2017)

Lmao you guys are real mature, I'm talking guitars, you're throwing insults like a middle schooler

You know what they say about men who talk about other men's junk? The insecurity is real


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## laxu (Apr 2, 2017)

LordIronSpatula said:


> I also say if you want a PRS, get a PRS.
> 
> I got a CT6 the year they came out, and it really is a great guitar. The neck is awesome, the stainless frets are basically perfect, and the wood is beautiful. Build quality is at least as good as my Vela (yes, I realize it's not a core model), though the Vela is way more resonant unplugged. Feel and playability are certainly on par with PRS core models I've played. The Carvin sounds great to me, even with the two C22B pickups I got stock. But I've never A/B'd it with any PRS plugged in, and mine is a Vela so it's not the best comparison.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with this. The main reason why I don't own a PRS is because I could not get along with the wide fat neck profiles they had on lots of models back in the day plus high European prices. They make a very attractive guitar.

I think PRS build quality is a tad higher than Kiesel, but not enough to justify the price difference. Provided you get a guitar without any real issues from either you will have something that sounds and plays great. I am not a huge fan of the recessed TOM + stringthru or tailpiece construction on the Kiesel and would prefer PRS' bridge options.


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## fps (Apr 2, 2017)

Just like to suggest that people who haven't actually played and spent time with both say so when they post. People unhappy with guitars complain about their guitars, that's obvious. Carvin/ Kiesel have tonnes of happy customers, you don't hear from them as they're busy playing their guitars. PRS, of course, the customer tries before they buy so they're likely to go home with the one they want, and PRS don't tend to stuff up obvious things like finishes, binding etc in the way that Gibson do with a few of their guitars that make it out to shops.

Having a DC727 (Carvin) which is my main guitar of over 10 years and pride and joy, the other guitarist in my currently hiatus'd band playing a CE22, and having spent a fair bit of time with a couple of highest-priced CU24s in a store here, having played someone else's CT6 and listened to a lotta demos down the years, I feel I can comment.

Carvins have a high and consistent build quality, with a tone which I would say is quite bright, with a lot of fundamental note especially in the middle of the mids. Sustain is good, the sound is musical and precise. The guitar does not need setting up often (this one is hardtail) and is quite low maintenance in terms of tuning thanks to the locking tuners and really solid piece of alder in the neck-thru. They take pickups well, although I wouldn't pick a Carvin as first choice if I was looking for a lot of girth and low-end in the lower register - pickups won't sort that, at least at 25.5 scale length. The guitar plays very well, bends are ridiculously easy thanks to the SS frets, I rarely if ever think I can't do something on the guitar because of the guitar - for instance, big sweeps aren't easy but I struggle with sweeps anyway. It's me as a player who decides what is produced, and how, on every note, and that's important, that's how it should be with a high quality guitar. Fret access is crazy good. It's a big gamble, ordering without seeing, but this relationship with this guitar has worked out beyond my dreams. Perhaps I was lucky, but although I can perceive different guitars, maybe even one that plays a little smoother, it still feels special whenever I pick it up.

My friend's CE22 is a really nice guitar which doesn't have the same sustain as my Carvin and feels very different. I don't know the neck profile, I'm afraid. My picking hand feels lower when I'm playing, and there is more of the feelings of notes snapping out of the guitar then decaying - in a musical way, this is not a negative, just a point of difference. The CE doesn't feel as *big* to me as the Carvin, though I've upgraded the pups in mine to deliver this sound, an Air Norton in the neck and first a C-Bomb and now a Black Hawk in the bridge. This makes my Carvin more hi-fi sounding and ready to cut in a live performance, but the CE is more organic and gives a little more varyied response to picking. This could be due to the lower gain pickups, though. The CE22 has a really nice variety of tones in it as a result of the number of knobs, and would be a more versatile guitar in terms of the quality tones for blues and jazz especially you can get, even with the coil splits in the Carvin. That said, the Carvin can jangle and funk after some playing about with the volume and coil splits. Using the trem on my friend's CE tends to throw the tuning out after a bit of use. That guitar definitely needed tuning a lot more often than the Carvin, and I'd imagine would need more general maintenance, which is to be expected with a trem anyway.

The CT6 I tried confirms that Carvins are a little brighter, some might say they lack a bit of body. Comfort is still very good, build quality confirmed as well, very comfortable and easy to play. Finishes are of a high quality, they look good and are of course custom to you.

The CU24 I've spent a bit of time with in a shop is one of the most extraordinary instruments I've ever tried (again, I don't know the neck profile I'm afraid). Every note sings, my fingers feel like they're guided to the next note on the fretboard, bends roar or purr, the finish is mesmerising, and most aspects of it feel a cut above pretty much every guitar I've tried. The tones were full and lush, the sustain consistent, harmonic and musical. It was an utter pleasure clean and distorted across pretty much all settings. It probably wouldn't jangle or funk, as it's too full and lush for that. At some point in my life I really hope to own a CU24. 

But I'd never sell my Carvin to fund it  As LordIronSpatula says, if you want the PRS, get the PRS. That's good advice with all gear, you're just wasting time and money if you're *settling* for something else, because you'll come back round to it later.


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## mystix (Apr 2, 2017)

I have owned over a dozen Guitars from both companies over the years. I still have the PRS left but no Kiesel/Carvin's left. They are made just fine(I have been lucky and have had no quality control issues there) BUT prs just has a special kind of mojo that none of the others have had. It's kind of hard to describe but the PRS just feels and sounds above and beyond any KeiselCarvin I have owned or played. That being said, Kiesel has definitely stepped up their game in the last few years. The lithium pick ups are excellent too. 

I would probably buy another in the future but I know that it will most likely be moved on at some point. So what's the point right? At the end of the day, you need to do what's best for you. Going with the Carvin is definitely more of a gamble. When it comes to this kind of money, I always go with the option that gives me more options in the future. If you go over the PRS, your resale will be a lot higher than going with the Carvin

Either way, good luck and enjoy


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## budda (Apr 2, 2017)

There's a '92 CE24 in Chatham for $1500.


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## oversteve (Apr 2, 2017)

budda said:


> There's a '92 CE24 in Chatham for $1500.


you can get a 10-top cu22 or 24 for that if you're lucky 

p.s. from my experience I personally would go with CT6, imo PRS are not worth paying 2x more for it


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## soliloquy (Apr 2, 2017)

oversteve said:


> you can get a 10-top cu22 or 24 for that if you're lucky
> 
> p.s. from my experience I personally would go with CT6, imo PRS are not worth paying 2x more for it



Mr Budda was quoting it in Canadian dollars. that turns into about 1150 in US dollars.


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## yellowv (Apr 2, 2017)

There is no comparison. Kiesel is not near the level of PRS. Most of their stuff is much closer to SE level.


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## Jeff (Apr 3, 2017)

yellowv said:


> There is no comparison. Kiesel is not near the level of PRS. Most of their stuff is much closer to SE level.



I definitely agree. Except that the quality control on SE's are still better. I've played tons of SE's. None had misaligned side dots, fret issues, or bridge issues. 

I highly recommend the S2 range, if you're not looking to spend over $1500 and still want an excellent guitar.


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## jl-austin (Apr 3, 2017)

I have absolutely no experience with Carvin/Kiesel, sorry, can't help you there. However, Austin has one of the largest PRS dealers in the nation. I recently played an S2 Vela, I absolutely feel in love with that guitar. It played like butter. It was also one of the most comfortable guitars I have every played, that body was so light and responsive.

My dealer friend said there really isn't much difference in terms of pliability between the S2 stuff and the normal line. Most of the difference is the woods and pickups.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 3, 2017)

jl-austin said:


> My dealer friend said there really isn't much difference in terms of pliability between the S2 stuff and the normal line. Most of the difference is the woods and pickups.



...and the S2s have bevels rather than the PRS carve, which is why I haven't gotten one.


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## budda (Apr 3, 2017)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> ...and the S2s have bevels rather than the PRS carve, which is why I haven't gotten one.



I go between a custom 22 and S2 singlecut - I notice the body shape difference, not the cut of the top


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## Drew (Apr 3, 2017)

kherman said:


> In that whole time '89-'11. I only had to send two guitars back. My Yellow ST. The original Schaller Floyd II stripped out. They replaced it with a Kahler Steeler. No issues. Under warranty.



Two, out of how many? 

I've never bought a Carvin or Kiesel, but I have a number of friends who have or do own Carvins and I've played a bunch more over the years. Generally, under the Carvin name they have been solid but not remarkable guitars - I've played one or two great ones but most of the rest didn't realy jump out at me. 

That said, the CT line has generally gotten pretty high marks, and my favorite carvin I've ever played was a singlecut with similar construction that sounded and played way nicer than any guitar that price should. They do tend to be bright, so anything with a mahogany neck is probably a step in the right direction, and I'd expect to have to do a pickup swap. 

I DO own a PRS Singlecut, meanwhile. It's not my usual sort of guitar at all, I'm a superstrat guy, but it's an insanely nice instrument. 

I'd say consistency is better with PRS, so unless you get a chance to play the Carvin first, that is a little bit of a gamble. I wouldn't order one these days under the Keisel name, but back in the day I would have at least considered it, as I always thought an 8 with passive pickups and a more traditional construction would be a lot of fun for fingerstyle/touchstyle playing...


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## kherman (Apr 3, 2017)

Drew said:


> Two, out of how many?



I've owned 7 total.


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## mbardu (Apr 4, 2017)

yellowv said:


> There is no comparison. Kiesel is not near the level of PRS. Most of their stuff is much closer to SE level.



OK the Kiesel hate level here has officially reached ridiculous level 

Although I'll agree the nicer 'core' PRSi can be above the average Kiesel (I for one really like the birds and the PRS trem'), they are still often playing in the same category. Every brand has its cons, PRS included...just take a look at some of the tops they grade '10-top' or even 'artist' ... sometimes really a crapshoot.

Take a decent DC or CT from Kiesel, with an oiled neck and stainless frets on ebony, and you can hardly find something that plays objectively and consistently 'better' in the whole industry. And that's including anything from PRS, Suhr, Anderson, Ibanez J-Custom, EBMM BFR etc.
And you can get that for what? Starting at 700$ used? 1000$ new?

Is their PR bad? YES! Do they have awful gaudy guitars sometimes (should I say often )? OMG YES! Is their communication bad? Yes, you really have to call them and be either patient or insistent. Do they have duds / are they inconsistent? Yes - and more often than not recently. Yet that's still a small number of cases overall (how many on sso with actual issues? 4? 5?), just blown out of proportion by the echo chamber around here. 
But anyway, that's why if you get a dud, you send it back. 

When that doesn't happen though, and you get a normal decent Kiesel/Carvin - then it is miles above an SE: woods and other materials selection (the inlays on SEs...yuck), fretwork, hardware, pickups - plus I don't know...basic things like tuning stability, sustain etc. You may find the models a bit 'sterile' (a common complaint that I can relate to now that I gravitate more towards Anderson), but saying they're the same thing as an SE is 

Nothing against SEs in general (still love my Cu24 and especially my Åkerfeldt) but no. Plus talking about quality, at least the Kiesel quality issues are isolated. 
Whole series of SEs with little to no QA (recent Tremonti, Semi-Hollow Zach Myers etc) is not a great exemple.

One thing that's very true mentioned above though: Should you go for an older/basic core PRS Custom 24 or a new-ish Carvin/Kiesel CT for instance? I might go with the Cu24. But of course, the only reason you can make that comparison is because of the used/new discrepancy. The Core Cu24 starts around 3k new, which is twice the Carvin price. And no surprises/no magic, this price gets you nicer inlays, a nicer trem, a one piece back, more consistency, and a distributor's margin


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Apr 4, 2017)

yellowv said:


> There is no comparison. Kiesel is not near the level of PRS. Most of their stuff is much closer to SE level.



I have to disagree with this. I've owned two and tried several other PRS SE models and while they're very consistent and great in their own right/price range, none of them have stood up to my Carvin models. My experience is that the Carvins have better fretwork, better hardware/nuts/stability out of the box, with the added bonus options for stainless frets and personalized aesthetics and woods. To be fair, my Carvins are from 2013 and 2015, so I haven't dealt with the company since they went to all Kiesel branding and the new factory, but I still have confidence in them to make a solid guitar if I should order more from them. 

I would put my Carvins on a similar quality rating to any Prestige or non-BFR EBMM I've owned or been able to try out. Then from that point it comes down to subjective appointments like what type of neck profile and fret size you prefer, body styles, trem vs hardtail, etc. 

I've only had positive experiences with Carvin customer support when asking questions and placing orders, though I can't defend them on some of the nightmarish stories I've seen plastered around the internet in recent years  

As for the OP's original inquiry, I think a used Carvin/Kiesel is a better option for the money, provided the particular guitar has all of the specs you want. Otherwise, there's no use in compromising specs for the sake of money and you might as well get exactly what you want if that ends up being a true PRS model.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 4, 2017)

If you guys had seen the Vader that yellowv received you might understand where he's coming from.


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## budda (Apr 4, 2017)

Guys, you're talking about ordering a new Kiesel - I believe the OP is looking at a used one.

There is no sending it back. If he gets it and he doesn't like it, he's stuck with it. "Try before you buy, where possible" is one of the best pieces of advice on a guitar forum.

That's why I'm suggesting the PRS - he can try one and have a pretty good idea of what the others will feel like, and go from there. If he goes into a PRS dealer, pulls a 2016 CE24 off the wall and likes it - he's probably going to enjoy a '99 CE as well. Add that the CE will be easier to move if for some reason he doesn't like it, and the question of "why gamble $1500 on a guitar you might not be able to move later for $800 over a sure thing" is a reasonable one.


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## Wolfos (Apr 4, 2017)

budda said:


> Guys, you're talking about ordering a new Kiesel - I believe the OP is looking at a used one.
> 
> There is no sending it back. If he gets it and he doesn't like it, he's stuck with it. "Try before you buy, where possible" is one of the best pieces of advice on a guitar forum.
> 
> That's why I'm suggesting the PRS - he can try one and have a pretty good idea of what the others will feel like, and go from there. If he goes into a PRS dealer, pulls a 2016 CE24 off the wall and likes it - he's probably going to enjoy a '99 CE as well. Add that the CE will be easier to move if for some reason he doesn't like it, and the question of "why gamble $1500 on a guitar you might not be able to move later for $800 over a sure thing" is a reasonable one.



Yes after more research and reading the posts on this thread I've definitely decided to get a PRS Custom 24 or ce24 used. I might wait a bit longer and drop $2000 cad on a used one and get a really nice custom. For all my searching every complaint has been found for carvin kiesel but I have not found anyone saying that their prs was missing parts or had sloppy inlays or anything like that. Plus I find prs way more attractive.

This is the one I'm saving up for it just hope it doesn't sell before I can buy it.


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## kherman (Apr 4, 2017)

Looks very nice, wolfos.


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## Fred the Shred (Apr 4, 2017)

No hate for Kiesel axes, since the ones I did try were well built, pretty and quite comfy, but to me the most important thing is "what do you want?" and you answered that right at the start when you proclaimed your love for the CU24 and CE24 lines from PRS - when buying stuff, unless you have the cash to spare to play around a bit, always get what you truly want even if it takes longer to do so.


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## mbardu (Apr 4, 2017)

budda said:


> Guys, you're talking about ordering a new Kiesel - I believe the OP is looking at a used one.
> 
> There is no sending it back. If he gets it and he doesn't like it, he's stuck with it. "Try before you buy, where possible" is one of the best pieces of advice on a guitar forum.
> 
> That's why I'm suggesting the PRS - he can try one and have a pretty good idea of what the others will feel like, and go from there. If he goes into a PRS dealer, pulls a 2016 CE24 off the wall and likes it - he's probably going to enjoy a '99 CE as well. Add that the CE will be easier to move if for some reason he doesn't like it, and the question of "why gamble $1500 on a guitar you might not be able to move later for $800 over a sure thing" is a reasonable one.



Now that's just uninformed. 
A 2016 Ce24 is going to be very different from a 99 one. Different body shape, different carve, different controls, pickups, poor trem system and different hardware, different neck profile... The new ce is really 1/3 Se, 1/3 s2, 1/3 core vs the real core USA models of old

To the op deciding for used core prs (custom or older ce), again that's probably a safe call. If you can afford it, you should be able to get a good cu for ~1500 us$, or a good ce for ~1200.

But again, no surprises there. Those are entry used prs prices, while pretty much the prices of the most expensive second hand carvins you would want. What this price difference gets you is probably name recognition and hopefully a bit more consistency/peace of mind (plus birds if you go custom ). It's true, out of the couple dozens used core prs I've had, I really only ever encountered one or two 'bad' (mostly dead sounding) ones. That said, in the > 50 used carvins I've owned at various points too, I've also only ever encountered a couple (literally 2) that were not _at least_ very good. 
Only negatives I've seen actually come from this very forum, where today they're compared to se Korean imports, tomorrow they'll probably be worse than Chinese squiers or something


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## Jeff (Apr 4, 2017)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> I have to disagree with this. I've owned two and tried several other PRS SE models and while they're very consistent and great in their own right/price range, none of them have stood up to my Carvin models. My experience is that the Carvins have better fretwork, better hardware/nuts/stability out of the box, with the added bonus options for stainless frets and personalized aesthetics and woods. To be fair, my Carvins are from 2013 and 2015, so I haven't dealt with the company since they went to all Kiesel branding and the new factory, but I still have confidence in them to make a solid guitar if I should order more from them.
> 
> I would put my Carvins on a similar quality rating to any Prestige or non-BFR EBMM I've owned or been able to try out. Then from that point it comes down to subjective appointments like what type of neck profile and fret size you prefer, body styles, trem vs hardtail, etc.
> 
> ...



I would disagree with that. The Carvins I've had had more finish flaws and worse fretwork than a PRS SE, of which I've played a ton of the latter. So, feel free to disagree.

If we're talking a $999-$2000 PRS S2 or CE24, there is no comparison, IMO. The PRS is better.


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## Drew (Apr 4, 2017)

kherman said:


> I've owned 7 total.



I mean, having to return 2 out of 7 means 29% of the Carvin/Keisels you've played have had issues. That's not exactly something to brag about.


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## ChrispyFinch (Apr 4, 2017)

I ordered a Carvin DC7X (pre Kiesel rebranding) that totaled around 1.2k.
I never gelled with it, wasnt very comfy body shape, cut away and the forearm contour was shallow for my tastes. There were two tooling marks on the guitar when i received it but otherwise the guitar was fine. I would have changed the pickups too.

I sold the Carvin and bought a PRS custom24 S2, and it was immaculate. Aside from the obvious differences in models the PRS was finished to a higher standard, better setup, better pickups, and it just felt nicer in general. The S2 was also $300 cheaper than the carvin. 

I prefer the PRS, definitely only buy what you can inspect and play first!
I eagerly await your NGD.


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## Señor Voorhees (Apr 4, 2017)

ChrispyFinch said:


> I ordered a Carvin DC7X (pre Kiesel rebranding) that totaled around 1.2k.
> I never gelled with it, wasnt very comfy body shape, cut away and the forearm contour was shallow for my tastes. There were two tooling marks on the guitar when i received it but otherwise the guitar was fine. I would have changed the pickups too.
> 
> I sold the Carvin and bought a PRS custom24 S2, and it was immaculate. Aside from the obvious differences in models the PRS was finished to a higher standard, better setup, better pickups, and it just felt nicer in general. The S2 was also $300 cheaper than the carvin.
> ...



To be fair, a lot of your qualms with the Carvin were a matter of opinion. Pickups, body shape, contour, etc. Perhaps even the setup, as the setup I recieved on both of my guitars was just dandy.

Doesn't change the fact that PRS is a much more established and widely respected brand though. Kiesel, particularly as of late, seems to be run by a man child who will turn his back on you quicker than you can imagine. You can order a PRS, not like it, and return it no questions asked. They're not custom, so you can also go down to a shop and play one and form your opinion on that. PRS is just 100% the safer bet in every possible way. And that's as someone who owns two post-Kiesel re-branding with no personal issues. I don't own an PRS, but damn it all to hell if I don't WANT one. Very nice guitars at all of their available price points.


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## Ziricote (Apr 4, 2017)

The only Kiesel I will buy someday is the Kiesel Edition. This is when you request to order a Kiesel "Edition" where you only deal with Jeff himself for the extra fee of $2000. You get the guitar process through only Jeff and he oversee every aspect and even builds your guitars for you. This is the Kiesel I would want. This is the comparable to PRS


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## Jeff (Apr 4, 2017)

Ziricote said:


> The only Kiesel I will buy someday is the Kiesel Edition. This is when you request to order a Kiesel "Edition" where you only deal with Jeff himself for the extra fee of $2000. You get the guitar process through only Jeff and he oversee every aspect and even builds your guitars for you. This is the Kiesel I would want. This is the comparable to PRS



I'd pay more money to make sure Jeff doesn't have anything to do with it.


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## kherman (Apr 4, 2017)

Drew said:


> I mean, having to return 2 out of 7 means 29% of the Carvin/Keisels you've played have had issues. That's not exactly something to brag about.



First of all, only the dc727 had to have a rebuild.

The dc127, I had for 3 years before having to send it in for the Schaller Floyd Rose II to be replaced. Many guitar companies used that trem. Not just carvin.
The saddle screw holes in the base would strip out over time. Turned out to be a quite common issue with that tremolo during that period. Thus, the reason many companies switched to the Kahler Steeler or back to the OFR. This was Schaller's design flaw. Not Carvin's. And again, Carvin stepped up and made it right by upgrading my tremolo to the superior Steeler.
It's too bad Floyd Rose forced Kahler to stop making that tremolo. I felt it was superior to the OFR as well.

The Schaller was the OEM Tremolo for a lot of companies. Long before the current FRT-1000 used today. 

Schaller:





Kahler:





Here's a pic of the base of the Schaller.
They eventually improved the design by adding steel inserts in the base to prevent stripping.
New/Old


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## trebal (Apr 4, 2017)

Zado said:


> Sure, in Jeff's dreams.


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## oracles (Apr 4, 2017)

Ziricote said:


> The only Kiesel I will buy someday is the Kiesel Edition. This is when you request to order a Kiesel "Edition" where you only deal with Jeff himself for the extra fee of $2000. You get the guitar process through only Jeff and he oversee every aspect and even builds your guitars for you. This is the Kiesel I would want. This is the comparable to PRS



I personally don't see the value in these, as they don't really seem to differ from the base models, spare Jeff personally does a few things and you get better wood selections. From what I've been led to understand, they still go through the usual CNC processes and only finishing and setup is handled by Jeff. 

That said, a forum member bought two or three of these, and had an absolute nightmare of a time with their CS department, which resulted in him being blacklisted from ever ordering another Kiesel (which may not be a bad thing after all). His build contained many of the same fundamental flaws and issues that are seen on the regular Kiesel builds including tooling marks, scratches etc. At the price point of a K series, I can't help but feel OP would still be better off with a core line USA PRS for peace of mind, as well as resale value and ease of sale.


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## littleredguitars2 (Apr 4, 2017)

Jeff said:


> I'd pay more money to make sure Jeff doesn't have anything to do with it.



how much does it cost to make sure no one at kiesel touches it?


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## bostjan (Apr 4, 2017)

littleredguitars2 said:


> how much does it cost to make sure no one at kiesel touches it?



Just check the box marked "no guitar," but beware that it's an "Option 500," meaning that you can't return anything ever again.


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## hairychris (Apr 5, 2017)

The 3 Carvins that I've had (00s ones I think) were nice guitars. None of the problems that people seem to be having now. They were DC series and were insane shred machines. Great timbers (I had a 5A topped one that was spectacular), well built, but maybe lacking a little of the attention to detail that you get with PRS.

I own and 87 and 05 PRS, and have previously owned an 03. They are definitely a step above when it comes to the little things. Not 100% on the pickups though. I also have, hopefully, one of the Reclaimed run incoming assuming the dealer can get one.

Personally I'd go PRS, but assuming you get a Kiesel which doesn't have some of the problems that seem to have cropped up recently you'll get a good guitar there. The one thing that PRS absolutely pride themselves on is QC so make of that what you will.

EDIT: I didn't like PRS until I actually got my hands on one....


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## gujukal (Apr 5, 2017)

They are probably comparable to PRS SE, but would never in my life think they are equal to USA PRS's. Which isn't bad since my SE Custom 7 feels like it should be double the price.


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## Guamskyy (Apr 5, 2017)

I own an early gen Kiesel Vader 7 (when luminlays just became an option but without the black rings on maple boards, making them hard to see in good lighting + pre "pinging" hipshot saddle + zero fret) and that guitar IMO played better than my second a Vader 6 that I ordered not too long after that.

The second Vader's headpiece screw holes that kept it mounted onto the end of the neck were stripped and the truss rod wasn't even engaged when I got it. Aside from that, it just didn't have the same feel & playability as my first Vader 7 and I ended up quickly moving that second Vader 6 out of my hands, after I fixed the problems myself.

Anyway, I also own a USA PRS CU24 30th anniversary and though the PRS is secondhand, the PRS plays better than my Vader 7. Don't get me wrong though, my Vader 7 is a solid guitar and I honestly believe it plays better than the EBMM JP7 I had before that guitar, but I believe that the core USA PRS' and core(?) Kiesels aren't on the same level and the PRS will always stand victorious.


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## fps (Apr 5, 2017)

gujukal said:


> They are probably comparable to PRS SE, but would never in my life think they are equal to USA PRS's. Which isn't bad since my SE Custom 7 feels like it should be double the price.



When you say probably... does this mean you have experience with Carvin? Or is this just sounding off?


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## nyxzz (Apr 5, 2017)

Dude, scoop up an old CE24 for like 1k. They're SICK guitars. I have an old CE24 (has the full carve) and a CU24 10 top that are both phenomenal. I've had a DC7X that was a pretty good guitar but it's a notch below the PRS. The only other guitar I've ever had on that level is an EBMM JP6, which I still own. I would say that one is PRS level. Just my two cents. I've never seen any PRS horror stories about their quality (that being said I haven't looked specifically) but the most you seem to hear from people (that arent Ed Roman) is that they just don't prefer them. TBH I would think anyone calling a USA PRS bad quality is either used to full custom guitars from god tier luthiers, exaggerating, or biased. Owned probably about 30+ guitars at this point and that's what I have concluded.


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## Jeff (Apr 5, 2017)

fps said:


> When you say probably... does this mean you have experience with Carvin? Or is this just sounding off?



I returned a Carvin and got a Schecter ATX, and have owned several SE's, and handle SE's, S2's, and Cores on a weekly basis. 

Even before the recent Kiesel debacle, I would have ranked them in the same range as WMI guitars. Just my opinion, but I just think comparing one to a Core is laughable.


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## fps (Apr 6, 2017)

Jeff said:


> I returned a Carvin and got a Schecter ATX, and have owned several SE's, and handle SE's, S2's, and Cores on a weekly basis.
> 
> Even before the recent Kiesel debacle, I would have ranked them in the same range as WMI guitars. Just my opinion, but I just think comparing one to a Core is laughable.



A Core is a special instrument. Beyond a certain level they're all very good instruments, of course. But I know what you mean.


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## hairychris (Apr 6, 2017)

gujukal said:


> They are probably comparable to PRS SE, but would never in my life think they are equal to USA PRS's. Which isn't bad since my SE Custom 7 feels like it should be double the price.



My old Carvins were very close in build quality to USA PRS. Wood selection at least as good. Attention to details wasn't quite there, though.

The DC127 and DC135 that I owned basically played themselves.


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## Wolfos (Apr 6, 2017)

nyxzz said:


> Dude, scoop up an old CE24 for like 1k. They're SICK guitars. I have an old CE24 (has the full carve) and a CU24 10 top that are both phenomenal. I've had a DC7X that was a pretty good guitar but it's a notch below the PRS. The only other guitar I've ever had on that level is an EBMM JP6, which I still own. I would say that one is PRS level. Just my two cents. I've never seen any PRS horror stories about their quality (that being said I haven't looked specifically) but the most you seem to hear from people (that arent Ed Roman) is that they just don't prefer them. TBH I would think anyone calling a USA PRS bad quality is either used to full custom guitars from god tier luthiers, exaggerating, or biased. Owned probably about 30+ guitars at this point and that's what I have concluded.



Well that's great to hear lol I currently own a JPXI 7 string and love it. The PRS I'm saving for is a Custom 24 black gold wrap I pictured it earlier. It's being sold for $2200 cad used which the sell for over $5000 new where I live. I'm almost there I've got $1700 saved I just hope it doesn't sell before I'm ready.


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## Jeffbro (Apr 9, 2017)

A >$3k production model is better than a <$2k custom... water is wet

If we're talking used, the PRS will still be close to $2k while the Kiesel will to around $1k

PRS core is more guitar, Kiesel is more guitar for the price, they're not at the same price point no point in arguing which is "better"


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## Electric Wizard (Apr 9, 2017)

^In fairness, I've seen that same argument disputed by Carvinites who cite the lack of dealer overhead as reason why the guitars should _not_ be judged as lesser from their lower price.


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## MattThePenguin (Apr 10, 2017)

God every time I click this thread the first reply makes me lol so hard


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