# Power trio: tips for thicken the tone on leads



## Rachmaninoff (Nov 5, 2016)

I'm playing in a power trio (guitar + bass + drums). I notice that during lead soloing, there's a huge empty space in the mix, that should be fitted by the rhythm guitar.

The first idea I had was to give the bass more attack, or even a distortion pedal to be used during leads. But unfortunately the bassist is stupid as a door, so I'm trying to solve this all by myself first.

I added a big delay on my lead tone, but it seems that it's not enough... does anyone have any experience playing in a power trio? Any suggestions?


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Nov 5, 2016)

Define: "bassist is stupid as a door". Is he unwilling to change tones/add distortion for the benefit of the band? 
Distortion for the bass could help. You can only add so much delay and reverb to your solo before it gets lost and distant. 
Loopers could help. If you're soloing over a repeated section, try looping it before the solo. You could use a laptop with a DAW to record a guitar part for the solo and trigger it via MIDI or something like it during those sections.


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## budda (Nov 6, 2016)

Look at how other bands accomplish filling the space, and try their methods.

Loopers and bass dirt definitely help.


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## Rachmaninoff (Nov 6, 2016)

AngstRiddenDreams said:


> Define: "bassist is stupid as a door". Is he unwilling to change tones/add distortion for the benefit of the band?



First I tried to suggest him to tweak his bass to have, at least, more attack. He said he couldn't, that the way his bass sounds. Apparently he prefers to lurk in the background, where his mistakes pass unnoticeable.

Second, we tried an overdrive pedal. He couldn't tweak it; I did. Then he simply could not step on the damn pedal without losing his sync or stop altogether. So he gave up the pedal, because it was "too complicated".



budda said:


> Look at how other bands accomplish filling the space, and try their methods.
> 
> Loopers and bass dirt definitely help.



Yep, I'm trying to find live recordings of power trios on YouTube. The Winery Dogs absolutely nail this.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 6, 2016)

budda said:


> Loopers and bass dirt definitely help.



A looper could help a lot. Veil Of Maya is a one-guitar band, and I believe Marc uses a big-ass Boss looper to help make their live sound bigger.


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## pullingstraws (Nov 6, 2016)

If you're trying to get the leads to sound a little bigger maybe you could use a pitch shifter.
Find a pedal that would let you blend in an octave up or octave down with the dry signal. If you keep the effect subtle, it could help out.

Also, using modulation effects like chorus or a flanger could work, too. 
It could widen out your lead tone depending on how you use the settings.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Nov 6, 2016)

Your bass player sounds incompetent. Glenn Fricker would not be surprised.


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## odibrom (Nov 6, 2016)

... what kind of sound are you trying to achieve? I play in a power trio with heavy dense sound and I don't find trouble in filling the empty space of the rhythm guitar. We decided that the bass and guitar lines should be independent, so the sound density grows a lot. Lately I've been very lazy carrying my stuff to rehearsals and I've been playing with the studio's amp only. Bassist keeps using his board with FXs. Once in a while I tell him to raise the bass sound a bit so it can be heard between my shops and the drummer's beats, still, no problem filing the emptiness (none to be aware of). In the end, it is all a matter of balance and compromise between what we project for the sound to be like and what we can do with what we have on hands (companions included)...

If you and the drummer feel like the band isn't progressing because of that, speak to the bassist. He either adapts or goes home / gets replaced. Evolution and responding to pears needs is part of life.

I don't know what your rig is, but a stereo signal does wonders for big tone. Could be achieved by several ways, like a split at the speaker end with 2 different speakers cabs (kind of a fake stereo), or earlier in the sound chain on the FX post preamp, using a stereo power amp, or even earlier with 2 separate amps and FX chains. Options like Wet - Dry - Wet are also suitable to thicken the sound a lot.


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## pkgitar (Nov 6, 2016)

If the dude can't step on a pedal twice during a song he needs to get that sh.. right.


HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> A looper could help a lot. Veil Of Maya is a one-guitar band, and I believe Marc uses a big-ass Boss looper to help make their live sound bigger.


Backing tracks nowadays. Last time I saw them he was panned left and a BT right. Sounds ....ing massive, but I think he's stopped looping. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.


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## marcwormjim (Nov 6, 2016)

odibrom said:


> responding to pears



_You can hear them too_?!


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## budda (Nov 6, 2016)

Sounds like your bassist needs to put the time in regardless.

I dunno how often you gig, but not adjusting settings because the current ones mask mistakes would not fly.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Nov 6, 2016)

Rachmaninoff said:


> First I tried to suggest him to tweak his bass to have, at least, more attack. He said he couldn't, that the way his bass sounds. Apparently he prefers to lurk in the background, where his mistakes pass unnoticeable.
> 
> Second, we tried an overdrive pedal. He couldn't tweak it; I did. Then he simply could not step on the damn pedal without losing his sync or stop altogether. So he gave up the pedal, because it was "too complicated".
> 
> Yep, I'm trying to find live recordings of power trios on YouTube. The Winery Dogs absolutely nail this.



The dirt pedal option is the most simplest solution of the lot. It shouldn't be too complicated stepping on it twice every song. There's always leaving it on all the time, a la Jack Bruce, Billy Sheehan and Lemmy if it's too complicated. You'll have to adjust your tone accordingly though. 

The other alternatives:

Elaborate bass lines underneath the solo. By far the cheapest solution, it costs nothing but more practice time for the bassist. All the power trios of the 60s/70s (the power trio golden age) did this. 

Keyboard/synth Pedals: aka the Rush method. You add synth pads in real time. It's a complex solution that'll set you back and requires plenty of metal thought from whoever activates them (usually the bassist) but the payoff is worth it. Of course from your posts, this isn't a viable option. 

Loop pedals, as already stated. Depending on your music, you can either record rhythms in real time prior to solo (VOM, King Of The North and Adrian Belew), or have them pre-recorded and trigger them yourself. Of course this requires precise timing from the drummer, in which case if you're not already, you'll need click tracks or...

Backing tracks. Take this option and you don't need the looper anymore. Your drummer will take this responsibility as he has to trigger them all and count the band in. 

At the very least, your bassist still needs to bring on his A game.


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## crankyrayhanky (Nov 6, 2016)

If your bass player is what he is, then try crafting solos that are very structured with plenty of chording/arpeggios that relate to the tune; only occasional flurries if that makes sense


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## prlgmnr (Nov 7, 2016)

Think of it as an opportunity to make your lead tone as thick and massive as possible without having to worry about it getting lost with another guitar - try a wet/dry* setup so you can have masses of delay/reverb/whatever the hell you want while still having your dry tone cut through.

*If at this point you're thinking "only TWO amps?!?", you're dead right, make it wet/dry/wet.


edit: sorry thread, I've just noticed someone said this already, I'm going back in my hole


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## Dantas (Nov 7, 2016)

As a bass player in a instrumental metal trio, I would suggest the bass player to turn on the overdrive and play chords when you play the leads. I play this way in my band when it's necessary, and it helps to beef up the overall sound. The guitar player also uses the looper function of his Flashback X4 to do some extra layers of guitar.

I play with a pick, and I generally strum the chords around the last frets to get a more warm and rounded sound, or I play the chords closer to the bridge to get a bright sound with more attack....it just depends for what the music needs at the moment.

But if the bass player can't turn on a pedal without losing synch with the band, I guess you have a bigger problem


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## JumpingInFire (Nov 7, 2016)

AngstRiddenDreams said:


> Your bass player sounds incompetent. Glenn Fricker would not be surprised.



I agree . . . 

I would suggest a new bass player willing to practice his or her instrument.

The bass should be able to fill the void left once you start soloing.

If he thinks a drive pedal is too complicated then I think you aren't going to get the sound you want without another layer of guitars (looper, backing track, 2nd guitarist).


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Nov 7, 2016)

If this is a band goal, then your bass player doesn't sound as though he is willing to be a team player.

I think this is the bigger issue at hand.

In an ideal situation, every band member inspires one another, and you'll never hear UN-affirming words exit the lips of each member when mentioning one another.

Resolve this issue, the rest will fall into place naturally, and you'll all inspire, challenge, and bring out the best in one another.


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## Science_Penguin (Nov 7, 2016)

Sounds like it's either find a new bassist, insist that the current bassist change his tone, or... do the Axel Rudi Pell thing, and make all your solos the part of the song where things slow down and get all quiet and moody.


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## Element0s (Nov 8, 2016)

I'm in the "fix yer bassist" camp. Try to get him to open up his playing a bit with chords, more interesting/active bass lines during your lead breaks, maybe a dirt box will help too. If he's unable/unwilling to give any of this a serious shot then you'll probably have to make a tough decision.


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## bostjan (Nov 8, 2016)

I've done the power trio thing for decades. Always me and two other musicians. I find it incredibly efficient and also a lot of fun.

In any power trio, there is a lot of room for everyone to spread out. You don't have to worry about person A being able to play riff 1, or harmonizing with lick 21, or whatever bull.... you have to worry about in a 4/5-piece. Also, there is a lot of time to fill with solos and a lot of otherwise empty sonic space for each member to fill.

That said, there is really no room for slackers. Period. Power trios work if you have a solid roster. If your bassist is in the mindset of "the rhythm guitar will do xyz..." then he needs to forget about his approach or else he needs to be replaced.

I've struggled a couple of times with complaints that something sounded thin during a guitar solo at rehearsal. My canned response is "then do something more interesting." How many power trios can you think of that had weak-ass bassists? Rush? Primus? Sublime? Green Day? The Police? Cream? Jimi Hendrix Experience?! No, power trios almost invariably have kickass bass players, and the few that didn't tended to hire stage musicians to make up for that fact.

My philosophy is that if you are a bass player because you want to thunk away at one to four root notes over the course of a song, you should have tried to take up cowbell or the triangle instead. Bass is an instrument that requires more precise timing and technique than guitar, and has a lot more to offer in terms of the number of techniques and styles required to handle an entire set's worth of performance.

Likewise with your solos, though. If your solos start to get boring, then you will more readily lose your audience.

On the other hand, you don't have to worry about another guitarist in the band getting the brilliant idea that he's going to take _this_ solo without rehearsing it that way, or whatever.

If the musicality is not all there, I don't think there is a tone you can achieve to fix the problem. It's like putting cinnamon and sugar on burnt toast, yeah, it'll technically taste better, but it doesn't matter, since it'll still taste burnt either way. Grab another slice of bread and try again, instead, and you'll be much happier in the long run.


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## prlgmnr (Nov 8, 2016)

Anyone else really like honey and butter on burnt toast? I mean, obviously not completely turned to carbon but certainly blackened a bit beyond well done.


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## crankyrayhanky (Nov 8, 2016)

wat


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## Bloody_Inferno (Nov 9, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Stuff.



 In particular...



bostjan said:


> I've struggled a couple of times with complaints that something sounded thin during a guitar solo at rehearsal. My canned response is "then do something more interesting." How many power trios can you think of that had weak-ass bassists? Rush? Primus? Sublime? Green Day? The Police? Cream? Jimi Hendrix Experience?! No, power trios almost invariably have kickass bass players, and the few that didn't tended to hire stage musicians to make up for that fact.



Adding more examples. 

Stone Temple Pilots were a band I didn't really pay much attention to until I saw some live footage. Whenever a solo kicks in, Robert DeLeo still manages to fill the rhythmic space. I wasn't even complex bass lines, but they were so creatively weaved into the music that allowed Dean DeLeo to just wail away without worrying about what happens underneath. It's the same staple as what Billy Sheehan has done in every band he's been a part of. 

In the other end of the spectrum:



During the Surfing tour, Satch only had a power trio. By the nature of his music, this is madness: how the hell is he going to fill musical space when he's constantly playing melodies and solos all night? Enter Stu Hamm. When I first heard that track on the Dreaming 11 EP, I thought Satch had a full band with a keyboardist and second guitarist. Then I saw the linear notes and was floored when I read that Hamm covered the harmonic foundations ALL BY HIMSELF. He wasn't even using effects either. It was all creative arrangement and playing. And it's awesome. Though it also helps that Satch was also adding extra embellishments all over the place too, but when you have a powerhouse rhythm section, you're free to just wail away. 

I remember joining my the prog band I play bass for now, when the guitarist was planning on getting a keyboard player, but completely shut that down after my audition and have remained a 1 guitar band ever since. And it was always the case every time I join a band as a bassist. It was a conscious decision on my end and it was something I took pride on. Of course we now have a keys player in the form of my foot triggering synth pedals.


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## Rachmaninoff (Nov 10, 2016)

I agree with most people here: the empty space should be filled by the bassist. I already use a wet/dry setup, with the "dry" adding a clean boost and a fair amount of delay. But the bass stays clean and doing a "pong-pong-pong" line.

I'm now trying to solve this by arguing with the drummer about replacing our bassist. He's a very nice guy, a good friend but... besides being a bad bassist, he also doesn't contribute with backing vocals (important to our sound), so I'm convinced that at this point he's pretty much *useless*.

Thanks for the great input, guys.


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## Semi-pro (Nov 10, 2016)

^ I understand that it might be difficult to see firing someone as an option is he's a good guy. _*But *_it's not unusual having to choose between either having a good time with your best buddies or having a functional band


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## vick1000 (Jan 19, 2017)

Age old solution.

Get a human bieng to play rythm guitar?

Failing at that, stereo chorus punched through the PA when needed.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Jan 19, 2017)

Some chorus to spread the image, mid to high depth, slow rate.
Increased mids in the 1,100hz-5k sparingly, experiment with the "Q" width to taste.

Any more than that, I'd consider beefing up the bass so that in the absence of rhythm guitar, that all your heft in your mix doesn't just drop out.


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## bostjan (Jan 19, 2017)

vick1000 said:


> Age old solution.
> 
> Get a human bieng to play rythm guitar?
> 
> Failing at that, stereo chorus punched through the PA when needed.



Hmm, yeah, the age old "solution" to having personnel issues in a band - add more personnel.

I've seen that so many times before, and have yet to observe it working. But, I do agree that a good rhythm player would make up for some of the bass player's absence, but it'll never fix the issue, IMO.


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## GregoryP (Jan 20, 2017)

This is how we're working around a missing guitar player at the moment:
We added a guitar amp, and a couple ABY pedals.
I use the stereo of some of my effects pedals, the last one (Mimiq) going into my amp and into ABY pedal 1.
The bass goes into ABY pedal 2, going to his amp and ABY pedal 1. between ABY 2 and 1 we have a POG and big muff to spruce up the bass sound going into the additional amp. Whenever i'm playing ryhtm, it's coming out of 2 amps.
When it's time to solo, the bass player steps on ABY 1 and then the bassline takes over rythm in the added amp. thanks to the POG & big Muff it sounds quite good actually.
And i blast full solo out of my own amp.

Edit: forgot to mention this part --> you can put the ABY 1 at your side of the stage/rehearsal room and kick it in when you're starting a solo, so the bass player doesn't have to.


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## bostjan (Jan 20, 2017)

My old guitar teacher used a Boomerang pedal to play rhythm, loop it, then solo over the loop. Nowadays, loop pedals are much more affordable, so maybe that could be an option.

But, to reinforce Gregory's point, I played out last weekend with an ABY and an octave pedal. While the wet tone is far from ideal, running that through a bass amp really thickened up the sound.

If only there was a guitar with a divided pickup that had some algorithm to pick out only the lowest string played and then track that an octave lower, guitarists in two-piece bands and playing solo could really have a wonderful tool.

On the other hand, though, nothing beats having a good three piece where everybody has found their space in the band and fills that space appropriately.


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## P-Ride (Jan 20, 2017)

If you're trying to fill in the gaps a rhythm guitarist might take, then a keen, engaged bassist to help close that gap sounds pretty key.

By the sounds of it, you're trying to fill the space of a rhythm guitar completely alone AND make up for him too.


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