# Are my Studio Monitors Too Big for my Room?



## Webmaestro (Jan 8, 2017)

I wanted to run a question by those of you who might be a little more knowledgable about room acoustics, specifically as it relates to mixing, mastering, etc.

The room I record in (and practice in, and use as my office) is 10.5ft wide and 12.75ft deep.

I currently have a pair of Yamaha HS8's, which are pretty large, and based on some casual research I've been doing, it seems like they may be overkill (too big) for my recording space. Even the manual recommends they're "at least 1.5 meters from any walls." Well, in this room, that's impossible.

I was thinking of downsizing to the HS5's, but wanted to ask that question first: are 8" studio monitors really overkill for my size room? If they're "too big"... why? What suffers?

Thanks in advance.


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## KingAenarion (Jan 8, 2017)

Basically your low end, especially in an untreated room will suffer immensely.

Other than that, it's more your perception of how accurate your decisions are.


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## shnizzle (Jan 9, 2017)

i don´t think there´s a "too big monitors for x room" thing. it´s rather "is this room too small for a studio". the size of the speaker just means how low it can go with it´s frequency representation. but the acoustic problems of your room stay the same. and the smaller the room, the more problematic it can get. but i´m not entirely sure what the general rule of thumb is here. i also have the Yamaha HS8´s, they are rather close to the front wall and my room isn´t that much bigger than yours. but i have some acoustice treatment in strategic places which gives me an alright presentation of what´s going on. and to be sure i reference the low end with studio headphones.


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## prlgmnr (Jan 9, 2017)

A bit, but if you use the room control, treat your room the best you can and hang a couple of acoustic panels directly behind them to compensate a bit for the lack of distance from the wall you'll probably be ok. I've just got a couple of panels stood against the wall behind mine as I haven't been arsed to hang them up yet.

The most important thing, by far, whatever monitors you use, is to treat your corners. To say it's like night and day is to understate the degree of difference it makes. It even improves the quality of silence you get just sitting in the room doing nothing.


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## Kanye (Jan 9, 2017)

Yes they are, thats before we even get into speaker placement.


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## Given To Fly (Jan 9, 2017)

Webmaestro said:


> I wanted to run a question by those of you who might be a little more knowledgeable about room acoustics, specifically as it relates to mixing, mastering, etc.
> 
> The room I record in (and practice in, and use as my office) is 10.5ft wide and 12.75ft deep.
> 
> ...



You are making good observations and asking good questions. I am not confident that I can contribute what I do know because there is so much that I do not know. I have two good resources though:

(Reader friendly)
http://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...talogues/genelec_monitor_setup_guide_2015.pdf

(Bookmark it, use when needed)
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm


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## TedEH (Jan 9, 2017)

shnizzle said:


> the acoustic problems of your room stay the same.



I'm not an expert, but I feel like this is the correct answer. If your room has particular problems, then your choice of monitors comes down to which way you're going to try to navigate those problems. Speakers with lots of low end, in a room that doesn't handle low end very well, means you won't be able to accurately tell whats going in those problems areas, which isn't good. But if you get smaller speakers that don't have that low end, then you *still* can't judge low end properly because the speakers aren't producing it in the first place, and it's still not good.

My  - get the bigger speakers anyway. You have more options that way. If the speakers have too much low end, you can cut that low end away while mixing so that the problems areas don't interfere with what you're doing, but you can't do the opposite and add low end to speakers that aren't going to represent it. Then, if you either change room or treat this room properly down the line, you'll be better equipped to make full use of the better listening environment at that point.


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## Webmaestro (Jan 9, 2017)

Lots of good input. Thanks. Kayne stated quite flatly that they're too big, but for now I'll address everyone else's comments:

I do have the room treated. Probably not perfect, but decent for a DIY project studio: Auralex wedge bass traps in the upper corners, big panels on the side walls, and a big panel on the back wall. I've killed most flutter echo, and there's plenty of other furniture in the room to diffuse waves.

The HS8's have controls on back to either increase or decrease bass, and the same for treble. I'll experiment with those this weekend.

One spot I don't have any sound treatment right now is directly behind the speakers (where they're close to the wall). Luckily, I have 2 spare Auralex wedge panels that I can put behind them.

So, with the exception of Kayne, it sounds like the general consensus is that I can keep the HS8's and make them work (with the right room treatment), and perhaps by experimenting with the attenuator settings on the back of the speakers.


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## Drew (Jan 9, 2017)

I strongly question this occasionally-mentioned view that the best way to deal with a smaller room is to use smaller speakers.

The problem you run into with a small room is early reflections, standing waves, and phase cancellation. These are often worse in the bass frequencies. The solution here is acoustic treatment to dampen bass frequencies. 

The solution is NOT to produce less low end, which is what a smaller driver does. You're still going to have the exact same phase cancellation and reflection issues with a 5" driver as you are with an 8", the only difference is there's just less bass being produced in the first place to be cancelled out. With an 8" driver, you can at least treat the room, deal with the comb filtering, and have the potential to get accurate low end reproduction. With a 5.5" or 6", no matter what you do to the room, your low end reproduction is always going to be lacking. 

The HS8s are great speakers for their price, and they're at a price point where you're getting pretty good speakers anyway - I use a set. They're not worth ditching in favor os something smaller, since they won't fix any low end cancellation. Just build or grab some bass traps for the corners of your room and treat your early reflection points, if you're worried about low end accuracy.


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## tedtan (Jan 9, 2017)

This was a pretty common theory on the Andy Sneap forum, Gear Slutz, the Reaper forum, etc. a few years back.

A larger speaker will allow for more low end extension (e.g., it will be capable of reproducing lower notes), so the theory that it will interfere with your room more than a smaller speaker is based in fact: the lower extension will excite more room modes leaving a more uneven frequency response in the low end. 

However, as Drew and TedEH noted above, 1) that's not worse than being unable to hear those frequencies at all because your smaller speakers can't reproduce them to begin with, and 2) you can always treat the room to deal with these issues.

So I say stick with the HS8s; you won't gain anything by going to the HS5.


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## Drew (Jan 9, 2017)

tedtan said:


> This was a pretty common theory on the Andy Sneap forum, Gear Slutz, the Reaper forum, etc. a few years back.
> 
> A larger speaker will allow for more low end extension (e.g., it will be capable of reproducing lower notes), so the theory that it will interfere with your room more than a smaller speaker is based in fact: the lower extension will excite more room modes leaving a more uneven frequency response in the low end.
> 
> ...



It was one of those theories that, at a glance, _sounds_ like something that would make sense, but when you dig in below the surface even a tiny bit, there's absolutely no rational basis why a smaller monitor would give you more accurate low end than a larger one, given known bass reproduction problems in a room. It'll produce fewer freqencies that get filtered out, true... But the upshot is you still have less bass than is actually in the mix, and in turn frequency-dependent mix accuracy problems.


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## Webmaestro (Jan 9, 2017)

Thanks for all the input. I'm going to stick with the HS8's.

I'll tweak my room treatment a bit and also play with the room settings on the back of the monitors (e.g. attenuate the bass). Things are sounding pretty good now, though I do have some excessive bass, which is what led to my original question.


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## KingAenarion (Jan 9, 2017)

Drew said:


> It was one of those theories that, at a glance, _sounds_ like something that would make sense, but when you dig in below the surface even a tiny bit, there's absolutely no rational basis why a smaller monitor would give you more accurate low end than a larger one, given bass reproduction problems in a room. It'll produce fewer freqencies that get filtered out, true... But the upshot is you still have less bass than is actually in the mix, and frequency-dependent mix accuracy problems.



I think it's also a complimentary style argument.

Like:

These will produce less problems AND you can compensate for the lack of low end information from your speakers with referencing on headphones and on different sound systems.



prlgmnr said:


> The most important thing, by far, whatever monitors you use, is to treat your corners. To say it's like night and day is to understate the degree of difference it makes. It even improves the quality of silence you get just sitting in the room doing nothing.



I'd disagree, I'd say the reflection free zone is more important, THEN low end treatment (not necessarily corner treatment)


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## prlgmnr (Jan 10, 2017)

I may have noticed such a dramatic difference from treating the corners in here precisely because this room was particularly bad for low end, I was being a bit carefree there in generalising from my own personal situation, so good point.


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## Drew (Jan 10, 2017)

KingAenarion said:


> I think it's also a complimentary style argument.
> 
> Like:
> 
> These will produce less problems AND you can compensate for the lack of low end information from your speakers with referencing on headphones and on different sound systems.



I mean that's best practice anyway, checking mixes on phones and then a few other systems, and the main argument for a better monitoring chain is it reduces the surprises when you pop a mix into your car stereo...

...but, do you really think a smaller monitor produces fewer problems than a larger one? Most guys here I would discount that immediately, but I trust your ears and your experience enough to hear you out. I think you're just trading one set of problems for another, and even if there's less bass combing going on because of the smaller amount of bass, frequency combing isn't exactly amplitude dependent in any significant manner (unless Im _wildly_ mistaken here) so the same proportionate degree of phase cancellation is going on, and it gets you to about the same point, regardless of how much bass was around to get notched out. I guess you could argue standing waves are more of a problem with a larger monitor than null points, but that's a pretty easy fix with a bass rolloff so either way I don't see you being worse off with an 8" rather than a 5-6" (unless, as was the case with my first set of monitors, your desk just isn't big enough for the footprint of the bigger monitor ).


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## Kanye (Jan 10, 2017)

All frequencies in the studio environment need to be considered and in most cases worked with to ensure a true and flat response. The low end can be more difficult to combat due to the size and density needed to trap/tame this energy. It take more acoustic treatment (work and expense) to tame said frequencies when the room becomes smaller. Your mix is going to thank you for focusing on working out the midrange and high reflections but not so much if you dont look at treating the low end. There is a case to be made for the amount of treatment needed to flatten out the low-end response of a room (I mean doing it properly not just buying one size fits all foam solutions) vs the point where other frequencies suffer and your room is deadened. The smaller the room the sooner this becomes a reality and you find yourself ripping out flooring etc to 'liven' the space up (ott I know). 

The comments regarding the size not mattering are pretty much correct but it is in reality not that simple. The more frequencies you generate, the more action you will need to take to flatten the room and generate a fairly accurate working environment. You will have more on your plate to deal with. It is that simple. If you are happy and confident enough to room testy and treat to get this all balanced, awesome, thats cool. 

Small monitors eliminate the range of frequencies you will need to cater for. When we keep in mind that the low end energy requires more effort to be tamed properly not to mention the effect it can have on your monitoring experience, this can be a godsend.

Its great to hear the sub frequencies but its one thing to hear them and another what we decide to do with them in a mixing scenario. If you haven't treated properly you will hear too much and mix the low end down in the mix (maybe). The same can be said for any unruly nodes across the spectrum.

Basically: 

Less frequencies to deal with equals less work and treatment.
SUb frequencies are a pain in the ass to treat for when done properly.
Smaller rooms present more of a challenge when treating for the low end due to the possible impact on the room as a whole.

The level and energy required for the smaller speakers to generate a good mixing experience vs 8" causes less problems in a smaller room. Yes you can use 8" speakers just fine but at what cost and effort? That is up to you. But buying premade 'one size fits all' solutions are not the answer. 

Regardless of the speaker size, you should have a good set of cans anyway. These (as mentioned above) are a good way to check on what the low end is doing along with car audio and a selection of reference mixes to help guide you. 

What sort of music are you making? LPF are your friend for unruly rumbles and harmonics. Its better (imo) to have a clear indication of what the highs/mids/lower mids are doing and be able to check on the low-end via b/c references than having a small, unbalanced room throwing all that low energy around and potentially throwing off your mix.

HS8's are excellent bang for buck and great speakers. I personally found them to be more in the mid-field category than near. Opinions differ, but I found they excelled when you can step away from them and let them fire. They are very telling. 

Anyway, horses for courses. Do what works for you.


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