# Is "tone wood" overblown?



## sevenstringj (Jan 24, 2009)

For example, has anyone ever done a FAIR comparison between basswood and alder? In other words, play 2 guitars that are EXACTLY the same except for the body wood?

I once played a Jackson Soloist and an ESP Custom Shop Horizon through the same amp. They both sport a JB in the bridge, both had maple necks with ebony fret boards, but the Horizon had a fixed bridge and a mahogany body with maple top, and the Jackson (as everyone knows) had a alder body and Floyd. There was ZERO difference in the sound.

I have a Jackson Soloist and an ESP/LTD H-207. Two very different guitars, wood-wise. Both have a JB in the bridge, and both sound the same.

I'm wondering if the whole "mahogany is thicker and warmer" or "ash is brighter and punchier" and other ubiquitous characterizations came about more because of the types of guitars that featured those woods, rather than the woods themselves. Fender-style guitars have a 25.5" scale and are typically strung with 9's, while Gibson-style guitars have a 24.75" scale and are typically strung with thicker strings. To me, THAT makes all the difference. But people look at Gibsons made with mahogany, and fenders made with alder and figure it's the wood.

Another major factor is the pickups. Strats traditionally have single coils, while Gibsons have humbuckers, hence the poppy versus warm sounds, which are often attributed to alder vs mahogany. Another example, Jacksons tend to be fitted with Duncans, and Ibanez's fitted with Dimarzios. I've had Duncans and Dimarzios in the same guitar, and the Duncans are generally tighter while the Dimarzios are generally looser--another common "difference" between alder and basswood.

Of course, it's hard to really compare woods. I can't remember the last time I saw a Gibson-style guitar made of ash or alder. One really good comparison would be the Soloist SL2H versus the Soloist SL2H-MAH. Same exact guitar except for mahogany/maple (albeit a very very thin maple top, perhaps even just a veneer) versus alder.

OK, I'll stop rambling. Thoughts?


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

It's not overblown. My RG8427F has a lot more low mids than my RG1527.

My meatiest sounding guitar is my mahogany body AX7221 and S7320, then my RG8427F (but that's a lot clearer thanks to the DS7, maple top and the 1meg ohm pots) and the RG1527 coming in last in terms of teh br00talz lower mid range.

I've always found that DiMarzios are tighter than most Duncans I've used. But hey, that's just me...


----------



## JesseTheMachine (Jan 24, 2009)

Actually what you said makes alot of sense, I never thought of it that way before. I just always figured because the Les Paul weighed more, it had a heavier tone hehe. 

But I think there is something to be said regarding the material that the bridge is anchored into, in whatever fashion. On some styles of guitars, like those with tune-o-matics or PRS style bridges*, the wood's resonance would resound through the bridge and wood, affecting the string's vibration. That would be perceived as a difference in tone, wouldn't it?

Edit: or any type of bridge, but to a smaller extent


----------



## I_infect (Jan 24, 2009)

I own basswood, mahogany, and ash guitars all with a variety of active pickups. Even w/ actives there is a difference... a 707 in a Damien 7(basswood) sounds different than in a Hellraiser(mahogany) and yet again in a Loomis(ash).
Bridges definitely affect tone as well, string through TOMs sound alot more bassy to me than string through fixed or Floyds.

One of the best sounding bridges I've heard/played(but was massive) was the Gibraltar bridge on the Ibanez Mike Mushok Baritone. The pickups and bridge on that were just beautiful.


----------



## SnowfaLL (Jan 24, 2009)

I find theres a difference.. I never really liked the tone of any mahogany guitar Ive owned, but Alder always blows me away.. regardless of construction/pickups/amps.. so I dunno. Cant be all coincidence.


----------



## sevenstringj (Jan 24, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> My RG8427F has a lot more low mids than my RG1527.


The RG1527 comes with Ibanez pickups. Doesn't the RG8427 come with a Tonezone and an Air Norton? Which are both geared towards the low and mid-low range.



ZeroSignal said:


> My meatiest sounding guitar is my mahogany body AX7221 and S7320, then my RG8427F (but that's a lot clearer thanks to the DS7, maple top and the 1meg ohm pots) and the RG1527 coming in last in terms of teh br00talz lower mid range.


Isn't the AX7221 a short-scale guitar? There's your meat right there. Not sure about the S7320, but it does have different pickups than all the others, right? Wonder how they'd sound in one of the other guitars.



I_infect said:


> I own basswood, mahogany, and ash guitars all with a variety of active pickups. Even w/ actives there is a difference... a 707 in a Damien 7(basswood) sounds different than in a Hellraiser(mahogany) and yet again in a Loomis(ash).
> Bridges definitely affect tone as well, string through TOMs sound alot more bassy to me than string through fixed or Floyds.



That seems like a fair comparison, other than the different bridges... TOM, licensed Floyd, OFR. Then again, I didn't hear a diff between the Jackson Soloist and ESP Horizon, both with diff woods and bridges, but same PU's. Do you have the same exact strings on all of them? How do they differ in tone?

Well, besides the SL2H vs SL2H-MAH comparison I mentioned, another great comparison will be the RG1527 vs RG1527M. Same exact guitar, except rosewood vs maple fret board!

But generally, I'm thinking wood is not worth agonizing over because the differences are subtle at best. Far bigger factors affecting tone seem to be strings, pick, touch, scale length, and of course pickups.


----------



## Mattayus (Jan 24, 2009)

Ya know, I often question my own pedantic choices even with things like pickups, let alone the wood.

The sort of tone changes we're talking here are so unnoticeable to the untrained ear, it's literally for your own pickiness and nothing else 

For example - A pickup swap in some guitars is essential, because of the output being so rubbish, and the definition (or lack there of) needs to be improved. Taking this behaviour one step further then - We begin to discuss the differences between makes and models, even though they may be of similar output and/or definition (i.e. deciding which Bareknuckle is best for your tone). 

However, the way we bang on about it sometimes is as if the choice is going to be like choosing between a VOX combo and a Mesa triple rec. Whenever I do tone-tests between two different pickups of a similar nature, I have to listen quite carefully to notice the difference in a mix. That's not to say we shouldn't have a choice, of course, but I think I, personally, may worry about it a bit more than perhaps I should.

 Just an observation


----------



## HighGain510 (Jan 24, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> I once played a Jackson Soloist and an ESP Custom Shop Horizon through the same amp. They both sport a JB in the bridge, both had maple necks with ebony fret boards, but the Horizon had a fixed bridge and a mahogany body with maple top, and the Jackson (as everyone knows) had a alder body and Floyd. There was ZERO difference in the sound.



I highly doubt that was actually the case, unless you were playing through a Roland cube or similar and even then I can hear a difference in guitars.  I have played guitars of the same scale, same pickups, same bridge and same strings but different wood and they definitely sound different to me. The wood definitely makes a difference.



sevenstringj said:


> I have a Jackson Soloist and an ESP/LTD H-207. Two very different guitars, wood-wise. Both have a JB in the bridge, and both sound the same.



Again, I highly doubt that. Two very different guitars and I would be willing to bet that if most people on here listened to them one after the other no one would say that they both sound the same.


----------



## ilikes2shred (Jan 24, 2009)

I have been very interested in this as well.

I personally believe that it is overblown, but it still does make a difference. Unless my ear is that bad, and others can hear such a big difference...

Like anyone, I hear different tones and sustains from different instruments-- different timbres--but to say the things some people say about how bad or good a wood is, how they hate the sound of a wood, I would be lying.

Another way to look at it would be to try to think of how wood and other factors affect the tone of an acoustic instrument.

Think about the tonal difference between a cello and a violin. Overall they are pretty similar in terms of how they are made, put the timbre of the two instruments is very different. And why? I would imagine its because of the difference in scale length.

You could also look at the difference between acoustic guitars. It is much easier to tell the difference between acoustics made of different woods, as they vibrate differently, causing them to have a different tones. Shouldn't the same logic apply to electrics? Maybe not to the same extent.... but it should affect the tone some.

It would also make sense for woods to sound differently because of their different structures and densities, which should cause them to vibrate differently, producing the strongest overtones in different places... causing a wood to sound "bassy" or "muddy" or "twangy" and so on, or at least theoretically.

So the difference between woods is there... and depending on the structure of the rest of the guitar, the difference can be strengthened or weakened. Just like if you get very low gain from your amp, even with hot pickups, it won't sound the same as even low output pickups with a amp capable of very high gain.

So basically I think that every aspect of a guitar--the scale length, wood type, pickups, pots, bridge, construction, and so on--all affect the tone of the instrument. The final tone is a combination of everything... so if you have more bright factors in your guitar than bassy or muddy factors, you will have a brighter guitar.

No one factor completely dictates the final tone of a guitar... but everything contributes.

Like you say, there are many common associations with different woods because of how they are commonly used. So as long as people use the wood that same way, that's how it will continue to sound.

If you want a guitar that is custom or something, then you probably want to have multiple factors that will make your guitar sound the way you want.

So to answer your question, yes and no.

(sorry was that a politician answer?)


----------



## I_infect (Jan 24, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> That seems like a fair comparison, other than the different bridges... TOM, licensed Floyd, OFR. Then again, I didn't hear a diff between the Jackson Soloist and ESP Horizon, both with diff woods and bridges, but same PU's. Do you have the same exact strings on all of them? How do they differ in tone?
> 
> But generally, I'm thinking wood is not worth agonizing over because the differences are subtle at best. Far bigger factors affecting tone seem to be strings, pick, touch, scale length, and of course pickups.



All my guitars are pretty much setup the same way, and yes little things do have something to do with it... string gauges, even picks. and yes, the differences are very subtle. Does tonewood affect if I purchase a guitar or not? No... I can find a pickup combo to my liking if I don't like how it sounds. How it plays and feels has much more to do with it.
But, however subtle, the differences are there, none the less. playing 2 guitars one day you might not immediately hear the difference; play them everyday and you will notice it.

I have 2 m-107's, but I'm not sure what wood they are, so I don't think I've ever honestly compared basswood or mahogany to alder. I have no idea how similar they are in your case.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jan 24, 2009)

There is definitely a difference. You can really hear it through a good tube amp. I have tested my ash body Framus, my mahogany RG2120 and my Basswood RG1527. When I played a Line6 Flextone, they pretty much sounded the same. But once I got my Mesa, the difference was very clear.

That said, I really hope this doesn't turn in to another basswood hating thread. It gets a bad rap because it's lightweight, soft and relatively inexpensive. All tonewoods have their own qualities, basswood is no different. I personally love basswood for lead playing. I suppose that's why the Jems, Universies, PGM's and Satriani's were made of basswood. However, when it comes to rythm playing, basswood does lack a certain "heft" that mahogany has. I actually found ash to be a very nice tone for both rythm and lead.


----------



## Shinto (Jan 24, 2009)

What amp have you played both guitars through?


----------



## led-ua (Jan 24, 2009)

I only would like to add my two cents concerning this discussion.
Yesterday my mates exchanged with their guitars - ESP M2 Std 2006 and ESp SV Std 2006. As you already know, these guitars are pretty similar: maple neck trough alder body, EMG 81x2, OFR. Differences are in body shapes, also SV has an ebony fretboard, while M2 - a rosewood one.
Guitars were played through Crate Bluewoodu amp and 4x12 cab loaded with V30. I also would like to mention I've played my friends' guitars plenty of hours and even mixed three demos where guitar tracks were recorded by those guitars.
So, it's really up to my opinion as a guitar player and sound engineer: tones of SV and M2 differ essentially. I agree, the general tone has few common features, BUT M2 has a brutal low-end punch and cuts through the mix like a bulldozer (I think mainly because of rosewood fretboard). M2's highs where just ok. On the other hand, ESP SV doesn't have such fucking sick low-end, but we were amazed by its shiny high-mids and highs (ebony fretboard). Two so same, but so different guitars for different styles of music. M2 now suites our tech brutal death style MUCH better than SV which now cuts in melodic death metal band
It is only my personal experience - I was amazed by how essentially fretboard wood can change tone of guitar. 2 hours lately I played ESP M2 2008 with maple fretboard - and it sounded neither like SV, nor like M2 with rosewood. But two M2 with bolt-on necks and maple fretboards sounded pretty much the same, even taking into consideration the fact, that one M2 was 10 years older than other
P.S. I made some Meshuggah patch for my TonePort->PODfarm VST and recorded those ESP SV Std and my Ibanez RG7421Xl through that patch. Their sound was very-very similar, the only difference was that 27" scale made notes of Ibanez more beefy and royal. So, the amplification also really matters.
Thanks!


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> The RG1527 comes with Ibanez pickups. Doesn't the RG8427 come with a Tonezone and an Air Norton? Which are both geared towards the low and mid-low range.
> 
> 
> Isn't the AX7221 a short-scale guitar? There's your meat right there. Not sure about the S7320, but it does have different pickups than all the others, right? Wonder how they'd sound in one of the other guitars.



No, my RG8427F has a DS7 and a AN7. My RG1527 _had_ that exact same DS7 in it and I have recordings to compare it to.

Yeah, I know that. I was just posting all my guitars in order of perceived meatyness. The S7320 has a tremolo system which increases treble response and the DA7 pickups both have a significant treble spike in them and the guitar is still has tonnes of lower mids to go around.

Also, explain why a S series guitar has such a thick sound despite being so thin? Surely by your logic it shouldn't be...


----------



## I_infect (Jan 24, 2009)

I like basswood and ash for leads over mahogany as well, and I agree with you on ash as the best of both worlds.(responding to gunshow.)



ZeroSignal said:


> Also, explain why a S series guitar has such a thick sound despite being so thin? Surely by your logic it shouldn't be...



agreed... they sound great.


----------



## ilikes2shred (Jan 24, 2009)

gunshow86de said:


> There is definitely a difference. You can really hear it through a good tube amp. I have tested my ash body Framus, my mahogany RG2120 and my Basswood RG1527. When I played a Line6 Flextone, they pretty much sounded the same. But once I got my Mesa, the difference was very clear.
> 
> That said, I really hope this doesn't turn in to another basswood hating thread. It gets a bad rap because it's lightweight, soft and relatively inexpensive. All tonewoods have their own qualities, basswood is no different. I personally love basswood for lead playing. I suppose that's why the Jems, Universies, PGM's and Satriani's were made of basswood. However, when it comes to rythm playing, basswood does lack a certain "heft" that mahogany has. I actually found ash to be a very nice tone for both rythm and lead.



Ok, so is there some difference that you hear with certain woods that leads you to believe that it's the wood that causes that sound that you like, and not any number of other factors? (*that is NOT meant in any rudeness whatsoever... sorry if it sounds rude) 

On another note, I hope to some day solve this mystery by controlling all other factors... if I feel like it. 

I would also like to see the spectrogram for multiple guitars that people say sound different to see what they are hearing. Anyone?


----------



## poopyalligator (Jan 25, 2009)

I have an ibanez rg520qs that is mahogany body, and a rg570 that is basswood. They both have the same stock pickups inside of them, and the difference is huge. I cant say i honestly like one of them more than the other. It is just different i suppose.


----------



## Elysian (Jan 25, 2009)

it absolutely makes a difference. my ash bodied 6 stringer sounds worlds different from my alder body 7 stringer, the 6er is crunchier, punchier, and all around meaner sound, the 7 is more midcentric, and not as well defined, imo. they both sport maple necks with ebony boards, and string through body TOM's, though the 6 is only 25" scale, 7 is 25.5". they also both have X2N's.


----------



## Anthony (Jan 25, 2009)

Wow. The wood completely makes a difference. Why does my Septor (maple neck, baritone scale, TOM bridge) with a mahogany body sound so much bassier than my Loomis (maple neck, baritone scale, TOM bridge) with an ash body, both unplugged and in an amp? They're similar thickness too.


----------



## sevenstringj (Jan 25, 2009)

gunshow86de said:


> I really hope this doesn't turn in to another basswood hating thread.



Actually, this thread was kinda inspired by some basswood guitar recordings on here that sounded flippin badass. Made me rethink all the preconceived notions that are typically thrown its way.

Man, so many good points in this thread, it's hard to keep up with. About that Ibanez S guitar being meaty, I remember trying an Ibanez S Double Edge 7 some years ago and thought it sounded small compared to its RG counterpart. Punchy and in-your-face, but lacking lower end meat. (And no, I wasn't accidentally using the wrong output. )

There was a HAIR difference between the Soloist and Horizon I tried, the Horizon being ever so slightly stronger, and I mean by a hair. The TONE was the same. I attribute the slight difference in strength to the TOM vs OFR. I played them both through a Marshall half stack (though I forget which one).

So far, the factors that have changed tone most for me were string gauge, type of pick, and pickups. I'll have to make a recording A-B'ing my Soloist and H-207... before the BKP Nailbomb arrives.


----------



## Scali (Jan 25, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> For example, has anyone ever done a FAIR comparison between basswood and alder? In other words, play 2 guitars that are EXACTLY the same except for the body wood?


 
I have an Ibanez RG570CT, which is identical to a regular RG570 (and now the RG1570 prestige) in every respect, except for the body wood, which is alder instead of basswood.
There's a clear difference, not only in the sound itself, but the alder also has a different feel to it. Basswood is much softer, and somehow you feel it when you're holding the guitar. Like it vibrates in a completely different way or something.

In general I'd say the alder has more sustain, and has a more lively sound to it because of its strong high-end response. Basswood sounds more 'hollow' or 'scooped' I think.
In my case, the alder is the reason why I bought this one, instead of a regular basswood RG. It had something in the tone that the other RGs didn't deliver (or various other superstrat guitars in that priceclass for that matter).

Edit: it's the guitar I used in the video I posted here a few days ago:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ge...tube-i-thought-it-was-time-for-a-new-jam.html
Hard to make a direct comparison because I don't have a video with a basswood RG... but nevertheless, I think you can hear a certain 'Strat-like' quality to the tone, that's uncommon for an RG. And that I think is the alder you hear.
The guitar is all stock, so you're just hearing the usual V7-S1-V8 pickups that are also used in the basswood models.


----------



## caughtinamosh (Jan 25, 2009)

Oh, the irony... I recently made a thread with the intention of getting tonewood recommendations for my new custom 7 (epic NGD to follow )...

I think what you (OP) said had an element of truth in it - yes, alder's reputation has probably been formed more around the fact that it (more often than not) has single coils in it, and the same goes for mahogany and humbuckers - in short, I blame Stratocasters and Les Pauls. I also agree that the majority (though definitely not all) of the hate for basswood on this forum snowballed from member to member, rather than being based on experience. BUT, having said that, everything on a guitar has an effect on the sound, the construction, the neck attachment style, the pickups (especially) and many other factors, the body wood is bound to be one of the biggest contributing factors. Going back to my previous examples, mahogany IS probably darker in tone than alder, even though this has been grossly exaggerated through pickup choice and the like. 

I firmly believe that you can get the right tone for any genre of music from any guitar, provided you have the right amp. Can you get djent out of a Gretsch? Probably, but it won't be easy, and it'll almost definitely sound inferior to an RG2228 or ESP SC. In short, though tonewood has become an overblown factor in guitar sound, it's still important, and that's why I'm asking around for my new custom.


----------



## Arctodus (Jan 25, 2009)

Don't forget that the way the strings are oriented on the guitar makes factors in. The quality of the metal, as well the kind of metal of a tremolo or a bridge will make a huge difference, also the kind of nut the guitar has makes a difference. 

The fretboard thing is is hogwash though. Being an ear player I pay attention to all the little nuances in playing. I've played many different kinds of necks with all kinds of wood it makes no difference at all what kind of board to wood ratio you have. What it all comes down to is the persons ability to exploit and adapt to the guitar. A signature or more expensive guitar isn't going to make you a better player.


----------



## HeavyMetal4Ever (Jan 25, 2009)

ESP guitars are good for examples. They make the MII with identical features but either a maple or rosewood fretboard. I played both throught the same amp with the same settings and chose the maple board. There was an undeniable difference in the tone.

Same with the ESP Horizon FR and FRII. Identical features except one has an ash body and one has alder. Again, after a/b testing both through the same amp/same settings I heard a distinct difference.

I had two friends with me when I tried the MII's. One said the difference was amazing, the other said he thought they sounded the same. 

I have guitars with basswood, alder and mahogany bodies, but I don't think one tonewood sounds "better" than another, just different. If you compliment the body wood with the right pickups just about any tonewood can sound good imho.

Rock on!


----------



## 70Seven (Jan 25, 2009)

I have two Ibanez RG (Basswood) and a Loomis (Ash) and there is a huge differance even when not plugged it, Ash really does sound bright, punchy and has great sustain. And that's un plugged so it takes out the EMG VS Dimarzio I have in my RG's


----------



## budda (Jan 25, 2009)

What i dont think any of you mention is the fact that "part of your tone is your in your fingers" saying is quite true.

I dial in amps to get My Sound - when i tested out a dual rec halfstack, i had a PRS SE singlecut and the amp - and got a sound very much like my JSX w/o a boost, at a volume that is not bedroom-friendly. when your partially deaf aunt isnt wearing her hearing aid and says its too loud, you know it's at least somewhere on the dial . That said, a traynor YCS100H boosted w/ a stock TS9 using a gibson LP standard isn't a fair comparison between the 3 amps as the LP standard doesn't have the same pickups as a studio.

Also bear in mind that the way you play each guitar will change depending on the height you play it at, and what you play on that guitar. And pick attack/placement will have subtle changes on your tone.

there's a wack of factors, I just know that I personally get great results with mahogany. I'll own a better strat which will be alder, i had GREAT results with a Basswood doublecut with the help of being in a professional recording studio (DeathCharge on purevolume), and going through my various clips on soundclick of my LP w/ JSX, its possible to get just about anywhere lol.


----------



## eelblack2 (Jan 25, 2009)

I dont think its overblown at all. I can hear differences within the same wood species on identical makes and models. All cuts of wood are slightly different. 

Each of my UVs sounds completely different. Each of my Les Pauls sound different. Same with strats, teles, superstrats. Aside from just plain gearwhoreishness, its the reason why I have so many of each example. 

It really depends on the sensitivity of your ear, how much balls-out-gain you are running, quality of your speaker cabinets, and effects/eq in your signal path.

The true test of tonal quality for me? Anybody can make humbucker+distorted channel sound remotely decent. How does it sound clean with no effects or gain at all? If a guitar sounds like shit clean, with nothing on it, you can dummy it up with chorus or delay all you want, but deep down you will know that it sounds like shit. THATS when you hear weaknesses in sustain, eq curve, and attack etc. Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.


----------



## budda (Jan 25, 2009)

eelblack2 said:


> Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.



.

now, how many of you metalheads play clean?  

This is one of the great things about a les paul  haha


----------



## Koshchei (Jan 25, 2009)

It's a difficult subject to broach, because of the huge number of variables that go into an electric guitar's sound.


----------



## Seedawakener (Jan 25, 2009)

eelblack2 said:


> Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.



That makes so much sense! I for one do believe in different timbre according to wood. there is a reason why different instruments are made in the materials they are made too.


----------



## Wi77iam (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes tone wood is overblown.
i have 2 basswood RG's haha


----------



## Scali (Jan 25, 2009)

eelblack2 said:


> The true test of tonal quality for me? Anybody can make humbucker+distorted channel sound remotely decent. How does it sound clean with no effects or gain at all? If a guitar sounds like shit clean, with nothing on it, you can dummy it up with chorus or delay all you want, but deep down you will know that it sounds like shit. THATS when you hear weaknesses in sustain, eq curve, and attack etc. Guitars that sound great clean, sound like MONSTERS distorted/overdriven.


 
I fully agree. When I go shopping for guitars, I first play them unplugged, so I rule out the amp and electronics, and just hear the wood itself at work.
If it sounds like the guitar has a good natural resonance to it, with a loud enough tone, and a nice character, I'll plug the guitar in and see what else we got.

Most of my guitars have clean tones that I really like, and I've just tweaked my distorted sounds so that they work well with the character of the guitars. So yea, that's pretty much what you said.


----------



## Emperoff (Jan 25, 2009)

Tonewood is overblown? No way

I've had a Hellraiser and a Loomis, which are exact same gutiars but with different woods, and let me tell you that they didn't sound any similar at all even both having EMGs. Unplugged, the difference was even bigger.

It's all about how much do you care about that, if the wood it's something so important to you when you choose a guitar. I didn't like how my baswood RG sounded and felt. As someone said earlier, it's not about the sound only, it's about the overall feel and response. I remember a friend of mine, who always played the guitars unplugged first when he tried a guitar in a music store.

For the record, ash is my favourite tonewood


----------



## heffergm (Jan 25, 2009)

Overblown? Absolutely.
Irrelevant? No.


----------



## Serratus (Jan 25, 2009)

The wood definitely has an effect on the tone, as do all the other factors you've mentioned. BUT it also depends on a load of other factors unrelated to the guitar itself:

-What you listen for in a sound
-the quality of the amp (a top quality amp allows much more of the guitars' character to come through)
-how much gain you're using (lower gain shows tone differences much more than high gain)
-what effects you're using (which is why I run straight into the front of my valve amp, to let all the tone carry through)
-the quality of all the other parts (both the guitar hardware and all the parts of the signal chain - pickups, wire, jacks, sockets, cables)

All these other things can drown out the differences in wood if you let them.

One other point, which has been mentioned before - each cut of wood is different - the mahogany in your particular guitar might not sound much different to your alder guitar, but that doesn't mean they're all like that. You may just happen to have a toppy sounding piece of mahogany or a thick sounding piece of alder.


----------



## Koshchei (Jan 25, 2009)

heffergm said:


> Overblown? Absolutely.
> Irrelevant? No.



I suspect that this is as close to the truth as anybody can get.


----------



## sevenstringj (Jan 25, 2009)

HeavyMetal4Ever said:


> I had two friends with me when I tried the MII's. One said the difference was amazing, the other said he thought they sounded the same.



 is right! 

But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose.  The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.

I'm wondering if a similar phenomenon happens with guitars. Since we expect mahogany to sound warmer than alder, or ebony to sound brighter than rosewood, etc., that's what we end up hearing. Furthermore, if your brain is expecting to hear a warmer sound, I don't think it's inconceivable that you'd subconsciously PLAY warmer.

Did the friend of yours who thought the two guitars sounded the same know anything about tone woods?


----------



## I_infect (Jan 25, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> is right!
> 
> But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose.  The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.
> 
> ...



I heard differences in guitars when I had no idea about tonewoods. I'm sure that may be the case both ways; with Ibanez' purists justifying the maker's extensive use of basswood,saying..."I don't hear a difference! Ibanez rocks!" just because, it's Ibanez.


----------



## bulletbass man (Jan 25, 2009)

eelblack2 said:


> I dont think its overblown at all. I can hear differences within the same wood species on identical makes and models. All cuts of wood are slightly different.
> 
> Each of my UVs sounds completely different. Each of my Les Pauls sound different. Same with strats, teles, superstrats. Aside from just plain gearwhoreishness, its the reason why I have so many of each example.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly. Pick up a guitar and play it unplugged. Then the one right next to it. If one sounds weak and tinny and the other one songs strong and full. Guess which one sounds better when you do plug in (unless it has the world's shittiest pickups)


----------



## caughtinamosh (Jan 25, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> is right!
> 
> But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose.  The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.
> 
> ...



This, in short, is nonsense. While there is a lot of corksniffery in this world, there are still those who can tell the difference between basswood and mahogany. Fuck, there's even those who can tell the difference between basswood and alder - Van Halen, when trying out prototypes for his new Wolfgang signature model, could tell immediately that it wasn't made from basswood and asked the luthier

"Did you use alder?"

I think the argument that tone wood doesn't matter at all is pretty much non existent. While there are many more factors that determine tone besides tonewood, there WILL be a difference between a mahogany guitar and an alder guitar, no matter how much their reputations have been tainted.


----------



## HamBungler (Jan 25, 2009)

To the OP, its possible that your ear may not be as well adjusted to hearing differences in wood, and also not knowing what Marshall you were playing through could also play a factor. I find that Marshalls tend to make guitars sound a little samey. Try the same experiment with 2 different acoustics and see if you hear a difference.


----------



## eelblack2 (Jan 25, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> is right!
> 
> But this brings up another idea I had about this issue. I remember watching an episode of John Stossel (I think that's his name) about bottled water. They fudged a special bottled water menu at a restaurant. The waiter would come over and explain the different waters, where they came from, and what distinctive qualities they were supposed to have. Then they'd all be served tap water... from a garden hose.  The hilarious part was watching people taste these artsy fartsy waters and nodding in agreement at how wonderful and unique they were.
> 
> ...



This may be true to a certain degree, but I welcome anyone to come play any three of my UV'S, Strats, Les Pauls, (insert whatever from my stash) and tell me they sound identical. 

My UV's for example are bone stock - identical tonewood, hardware, and electronics. They sound quite a bit different from each other.







Transversely, two my strats which are identical hardware, yet vastly different in terms of tonewood (Alder vs Swamp Ash) are night and day different, tonally, as you would expect. The electronics are the same if you were wondering.

Wood species makes a huge difference. If a person can hear the difference, is a different matter. It really, REALLY, depends on the ear of the listener, the signal path from start to finish, and the actual cut of the wood. (As the UV's above are a prime example.)


----------



## I_infect (Jan 25, 2009)

eelblack2 said:


> My UV's for example are bone stock - identical tonewood, hardware, and electronics. They sound quite a bit different from each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Wood species makes a huge difference. If a person can hear the difference, is a different matter. It really, REALLY, depends on the ear of the listener, the signal path from start to finish, and the actual cut of the wood. (As the UV's above are a prime example.)







HamBungler said:


> I find that Marshalls tend to make guitars sound a little samey.


----------



## ilikes2shred (Jan 25, 2009)

No volunteers to do spectrograms yet? I did a few with my two customs, and they are quite different... could very well be the pickups though. I'll post a thread when I get a chance.

Anyway, I thought that maybe someone could run two guitars that are identical except for the wood, or at least have the same pickups, directly into their computer (no effects) and run that through a spectrogram program. 

I think that could really "prove" to some people how much the tone is affected.


Anyone?


----------



## backyardburial (Jan 25, 2009)

I was about to post a question regarding getting a new body made for my 7420. I always liked it, but since I got a Les paul 7, the RG sounds thin to me, even with the stock pups. The RG has a 707. I realise there are othe factors such as scale, fixed vs floyd, but Im sure the mahogany sounds better I need to start anew thread to ask about this I think?


----------



## goalie39 (Jan 25, 2009)

personally I love the sound of the mahogany on my guitars. Its full and dark. Pups can change any thing though, I love Emgs but maybe theyre not what ur looking for


----------



## Bobo (Jan 25, 2009)

ilikes2shred said:


> No volunteers to do spectrograms yet? I did a few with my two customs, and they are quite different... could very well be the pickups though. I'll post a thread when I get a chance.
> 
> Anyway, I thought that maybe someone could run two guitars that are identical except for the wood, or at least have the same pickups, directly into their computer (no effects) and run that through a spectrogram program.
> 
> ...



I've wondered if that has been done, sounds neat. But I haven't read anything about any programs. What did you use? I'd like to see your results.


----------



## sami (Jan 25, 2009)

budda said:


> What i dont think any of you mention is the fact that "part of your tone is your in your fingers" saying is quite true.



Yup, thas what I was thinkin.


----------



## msherman (Jan 25, 2009)

Here is another thing to ponder about. The tone of a guitar will change as it ages.
The tone also changes along with seasonal changes in the weather as in the summer months, the guitar takes on moisture, and leaches moisture in the winter.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 25, 2009)

eelblack2 said:


> This may be true to a certain degree, but *I welcome anyone to come play any three of my UV'S, Strats, Les Pauls, (insert whatever from my stash)* and tell me they sound identical.


----------



## noodleplugerine (Jan 26, 2009)

I personally believe its less to do with the species of wood, and more to do with the density and grain of the particular piece - And these depend on all sorts of factors, like where on the tree the piece was cut etc.

This is why I think its IMPOSSIBLE to know when something is basswood, and when something is mahogany, from hearing alone, since in 1 Sapele tree, you can find pieces of wood with all sorts of properties.

Some will be uber dense, and sound very bright, some will be falling apart and sound like farts, same can be said of whichever tree basswood comes from I imagine.


----------



## Pablo (Jan 26, 2009)

Tone wood makes a huge difference - just listen!

However, your observations may hold true for a) your ears and b) _your slightly odd example_. Why slightly odd? Well, in your example you called the SL2 "an alder body guitar" and the Horizon "a mahogany body guitar" - a premise that I find decidedly flawed. In fact, both guitars sport neck-through maple necks with alder or mahogany wings respectively. The large chunk of maple going through the middle of the body is by far the dominant factor in the tone you hear. Hence, _in your example_ the difference could very well have been small... 

Cheers

Eske


----------



## eelblack2 (Jan 26, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


>



Sorry if that came off as pretentious. What I was trying to get at was the fact that I've pondered the same questions, and experimented with guitars that I have owned, all at the same time, to get answers. I'm sure I could have expressed that perspective less snobbily.


----------



## Xk6m6m5X (Jan 26, 2009)

i think that the easiest way to test this is have a bunch of guitars...built to the same exact spec...body shape scal lenght pickups string ect,.....just mad of the different woods and then put them throught an amp....without changing the settin for ne of the guitars


----------



## darren (Jan 26, 2009)

At some point, i'd like to build a guitar using woods i buy at Home Depot. 

My Danelectro has a plywood frame with a hardboard (masonite) top and back, and it sounds great... not what everyone would expect, but it's got a unique tone that definitely has its place. I'd love to experiment using high-quality void-free plywood and builder-grade timbers (including strand-laminated composite beams and laminated bamboo lumber), just to see what can be done with them.


----------



## Metal Ken (Jan 26, 2009)

darren said:


> laminated bamboo lumber



Stick, Inc. (Chapman Stick company) makes some sticks of compressed bamboo. is that what you're talking about? Is that readily available?


----------



## sevenstringj (Jan 26, 2009)

Pablo said:


> Tone wood makes a huge difference - just listen!
> 
> However, your observations may hold true for a) your ears and b) _your slightly odd example_. Why slightly odd? Well, in your example you called the SL2 "an alder body guitar" and the Horizon "a mahogany body guitar" - a premise that I find decidedly flawed. In fact, both guitars sport neck-through maple necks with alder or mahogany wings respectively. The large chunk of maple going through the middle of the body is by far the dominant factor in the tone you hear. Hence, _in your example_ the difference could very well have been small...
> 
> ...



Touche! But I wonder about Jackson's particular neck-thru construction. I used to own a Custom Shop Jackson with a transparent finish, and it looked like half the neck-thru part was not the neck, but perhaps the body wood overlapped on it? If you looked at the bottom of the guitar (by the strap button), it looked like 2 pieces of wood in the center. Maybe they laminate 2 pieces to save wood, being that the body is about twice as thick as the neck?  Interesting.

Anyhow, I agree with posts pointing out the need to listen to a clean signal. I figured distortion and overdrive would make it harder to differentiate.


----------



## darren (Jan 26, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> Stick, Inc. (Chapman Stick company) makes some sticks of compressed bamboo. is that what you're talking about? Is that readily available?



Laminated bamboo lumber is hard to come by... most of the product imported here seems to be in the form of flooring. But a few longer pieces of flooring could be stripped and laminated into a beam suitable for a guitar neck.

I've emailed Chapman in the past to inquire about their source, but received no reply.


----------



## Scali (Jan 26, 2009)

Who needs wood anyway? 
Ibanez, Parker, Steinberger and Catalyst have all experimented with other materials, like special kinds of plastics, carbon and such.
And those guitars actually sounded good in their own right.


----------



## hufschmid (Jan 26, 2009)

Kornfann1024 said:


> i think that the easiest way to test this is have a bunch of guitars...built to the same exact spec...body shape scal lenght pickups string ect,.....just mad of the different woods and then put them throught an amp....without changing the settin for ne of the guitars



the woods will not be identical even if you have 2 basswood guitars to the same specs for exemple


----------



## HighGain510 (Jan 26, 2009)

Scali said:


> Who needs wood anyway?
> Ibanez, *Parker*, Steinberger and Catalyst have all experimented with other materials, like special kinds of plastics, carbon and such.
> And those guitars actually sounded good in their own right.



Not sure about the rest of them but Parker uses wood cores for their guitars... they're not entirely Carbon Fiber...


----------



## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2009)

I notice a difference between my mahogany RG7CT and my basswood RG7420.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2009)

darren said:


> My Danelectro has a plywood frame with a hardboard (masonite) top and back, and it sounds great.



I used to play one of those 7 strings that you have when the store I worked at at the time had one, and I absolutely hated the tone and feel of that guitar, but then again I'm sure we're playing a lot different music and going for a different sound


----------



## Cancer (Jan 26, 2009)

Up to about a month ago I had 2 Carvin DC727, and they identical except for the following"

ne had a Maple neck while the other was Mahogany
ne had an Alder body while the other was Mahogany
ne had a stock pickup while the other had an X2N7
ne was blue and other brown

Other than that they were exactly the same, and the difference between them was night and day. Obviously the pickups played a huge difference, but even unplugged you could clearly hear a difference.


Wood most definitely makes a difference.


----------



## noob_pwn (Jan 26, 2009)

absolutely every guitar ever made sounds different regardless of wood species, pickups and hardware because no 2 pieces of any organic material are identical. Wood is the foundation for the construction of any guitar so of course it makes a huge difference, although other factors are important too. The extent to which the tone changes will vary in each instance but no 2 guitars will ever sound identical


----------



## El Caco (Feb 2, 2009)

Of course body material has an effect on tone, not only do the vibrations from the strings travel into the body but the vibrations from the body travel back to the strings. How these waves interact with each other will have an affect on your tone. Certain waves will cancel and others will be multiplied. This difference isn't something that can be made the same with EQ as different tonewoods will amplify different harmonic overtones within a given EQ range.

In regards to the comment about badass basswood recordings, I think basswood guitars are great for recording and I'm a believer in the right guitar/tonewood for the application. My RG7EXFX2 does not sound anywhere near as nice as my Mahogany bodied guitars through my new rig but when I (attempt to) record something my RG7EXFX2 clips usually sound much better, it is far more forgiving to my sloppy technique and it's natural compressed sound makes recording easier for me however the tone I want and I get with my mahogany guitars is not there with it.

I will mention shitty pickups, I have noticed that two different guitars with the same shitty pickups (standard Ibanez for example) can sound very similar but when the same guitars have been upgraded with better pickups (still the same in both) it is easier to hear the difference between them.


----------



## El Caco (Feb 2, 2009)

caughtinamosh said:


> I also agree that the majority (though definitely not all) of the hate for basswood on this forum snowballed from member to member, rather than being based on experience.



Actually I think a lot of it would be a result of the migration from Ibanez to Schecter and other brands that offer alternative tonewoods.


----------



## Scali (Feb 2, 2009)

s7eve said:


> Actually I think a lot of it would be a result of the migration from Ibanez to Schecter and other brands that offer alternative tonewoods.


 
I thought it would have been the other way around, actually.
Woods like mahogany, maple, ash and alder have been used since the first solidbody guitars back in the early 1950s.
In the 60s/70s cheap Asian knockoffs came along, and used woods like basswood, poplar and agathis to keep cost down.
Because of the massive success of Ibanez' revamped product line in the mid-80s, thanks to Steve Vai and his Jem, Ibanez and basswood guitars were being used by young talented players and somehow snowballed into the mainstream, rather than just being cheap beginner guitars.

I think the older generation never quite accepted these Asian guitars and the woods they used, and this myth just kept spreading under guitarists, and now even moreso because of the internet.
Just the other day there was this topic about a forum member buying a Schecter Loomis with a friend's son... The friend in question still thought that a US Strat was the best guitar on the planet. I think it's those people that gave Ibanez and basswood the bad reputation.

Having said that, it's good to see that companies like Schecter make more 'classic' woods such as ash and mahongany available to us 7-string players, so we can have more tonal variety.
I mean, regardless of whether this hate against basswood is justified or not, you cannot deny that people all have their individual tastes, and not everyone is going to like the same woods (for whatever reasons... could be tone, weight, looks, durability etc). So I think it's justified to complain about Ibanez only giving us basswood RGs (or black guitars for that matter... I mean, I like my S7320, but if I had the choice, I'd never buy a black guitar, or even a solid colour guitar in general).


----------



## El Caco (Feb 2, 2009)

That's probably true in general but I was responding to the statement about this forum. I know that my general dislike for basswood was not influence by this forum and some of the comments I have read from others were a result of switching from Ibanez.


----------



## caughtinamosh (Feb 2, 2009)

What was your general dislike about basswood, Steve?

My personal ones are the somewhat dry sound, and the light weight (yes, I LOVE heavy guitars ). 

BUT, I will say this - my opinion of basswood was probably tainted by my low quality RG7321. I'd probably love a Universe or similar, but have steered clear of all other basswood guitars because of my first bad experience.

EDIT : After this post, I resolve NOT to taint this thread by discussing basswood hate/love any further.


----------



## demolisher (Feb 2, 2009)

I really think people need to start looking more into bass tonewoods for guitars. I play a bass made out of merbau with a maple/mahog neck and when I play it I honestly, legitimately feel like im getting punched in the face, the tone is so tight and growling I get a smile on my face, this bass is weight heavy, almost so heavy its unplayable standing up, and I think that has alot to do with it. but really I could go get 5 basses in the most exotic wood patterns but if I got 5 guitars at guitar center it would be basswood basswood mahogany ash basswood etc.


----------



## Daemoniac (Feb 3, 2009)

^ Completely agreed. Bass guitars are made out of some of the most incredible materials, i think guitarists just dont like holding heavy shit  Playing stance probably has something to do with it i guess too...

To me, tonewood definately does make a difference, and even if that difference is minute on its own, it is massively amplified by the pickup choices, and hardware/electronics that go into the guitar. The vibrations from the wood, coupled with the neck etc.. all go into crafting 'your' sound, so the pickups will react differently to different tone woods.

There is also the issue of different quality woods, ask _any_ luthier, and they will tell you that there is a huge difference in the sound of say bad quality or even just lower density mahogany to that of really high quality or really high density mahogany. There are an almost infinite amount of things that can affect the tone of a guitar, and the more powerful any one of those things are, i think the less you may notice the other parts, but _all _of them go into crafting a perfect sound for whatever style it may be that you play.


----------



## Harry (Feb 3, 2009)

Don't think I've posted in this thread yet, so here goes.
Is tone wood overblown?
Definitely not.
I can notice a difference between guitars made of different woods.


----------



## robotsatemygma (Feb 3, 2009)

Personally... it ll depends on the person. Like it was already stated, some people hear things others don't.


----------



## El Caco (Feb 3, 2009)

caughtinamosh said:


> What was your general dislike about basswood, Steve?



I shouldn't say I dislike it, I don't hate basswood but it is my last choice of tonewood. I don't like the lack of low end and the scooped EQ and for the majority of my playing I prefer the harmonic overtones that other tonewood choices give me. For B standard my favourite generic tonewood is Mahogany, for lower tunings ash and maple neckthrough's are awesome.

Dry is a good description, this and the lack of low end is why I don't really like it but again I will say that the dry sound of basswood is great for certain sounds and it's compressed tone can be excellent for recording. If I could own just one guitar for a budget of $1000 it would be a mahogany guitar but the truth is down the track I wouldn't mind having a basswood guitar with a good set of pups that have strong low mids and good bass just for recording.


----------



## guitarjerry (May 12, 2009)

No one seems to have mentioned that the finish on the guitar also affects the tone. And what about the shape? 

I once read an article where Yngwie was using a cheap strat and they asked him something like why don't you use a better or more expensive or special guitar? he said something to the effect of, its not the tool, its how you use it. and that, basically, that guitar was as good as any for this purpose. 
I think any wood will work for whatever you need if you use the right pickups and setup and gear. I noticed in the old days, metallica, for example, was using basswood esp's and emg pickups and they sound warm and dark enough, even though a lot of people seem to say you cant get a good, warm tone with basswood. But then, that could just be how they recorded and mastered the sound.

Also, I've heard a lot of people say that you've got to have the warm sound of mahogany, not basswood, but then, they say you've got to have dimarzios which have ceramic pickups and alnico has a warmer sound.


----------



## xtrustisyoursx (May 12, 2009)

I know that my mahogany Gibson SG has a thinner body, smaller body, shorter scale, and lighter strings than my basswood RG7421, and it still just sounds HUGE when compared to the Ibby. In fact, that's the problem I'm trying to fix currently.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (May 12, 2009)

guitarjerry said:


> No one seems to have mentioned that the finish on the guitar also affects the tone. And what about the shape?





tonewood is a strange thing. I've heard basswood RG1527s that sound fucking HUGE, amazing tone, and through a Marshall no less.

Agathis would probably be my last choice of wood for body, it's just horrid 

I have an ESP Horizon FR II, which is Alder wings with Maple neck and Ebony fretboard, with an EMG 81 in the bridge. this is quite a bright sound, quite a lot of attack, perfect for thrash, lead and cleans. but I've also played an ESP LTD MH-1000 that is exactly the same spec except for the woods, which are Mahogany wings with Maple neck and Rosewood fretboard. this also had an EMG 81 in the bridge, and the sound is COMPLETELY different. it's much thicker, denser tone with days of sustain and much more suitable for death metal.

a good thing to remember is that a lot of tone is in the fingers. remember that vid of Satriani playing killer licks on a $100 guitar and crappy practise amp?

overall, I'd say that yes, wood does affect tone quite a lot, my personal favourite being mahogany (though basswood in some circumstances) and as has been mentioned before, pickups and amp also affect tone a lot also, and there are so many combinations out there that it would be silly to definitively say that you don't like the tone of say, basswood for example.

at the end of the day, EVERYTHING affects tone, and wood is one of those things, so I would say don't rule out a guitar of any wood unless you have tried it, because with that specific combination, it could just well be your thing


----------



## El Caco (May 12, 2009)

Funny to see this one bumped, especially since I brought the subject up in conversation just the other day. Some people say that EMG's sound the same in any guitar  My brightest guitar is Basswood fitted with EMG's, in the middle is the RG2027 fitted with Nailbombs and my darkest and meatiest sounding guitar is the Ochoteco, a guitar primarily made of Maple also fitted with EMG's


----------



## Scar Symmetry (May 12, 2009)

yeah I don't get EMG haters, I have heard some horrible tones from EMGs, but I've also heard some amazing tones, lumping them all in as sterile and samey is stupid IMO.


----------



## hufschmid (May 12, 2009)

The thing which always makes me 

I'm trying to explain for so many years that mahogany is a general therm, rosewood is a general therm etc....

If you say that a mahogany guitar will react with a specific pickup selection, I want to know which mahogany your talking about. In the industry many mahogany species are being used and all of them have a specific tone caracteristics....

For exemple the specie I'm using to build my guitars is 'sapeli' which can actually sound very bright and not warm at all..... (i think I have proven this hundereds of times either in the sound clips or videos of my instruments)

The thing which changes incredibly the way how the guitar will react acoustically would be the weight and density of the wood and of course the scale lengh...

But there is of course the pickups, the players hands, the way he picks, the average humidity can affect the tone of the instrument believe it or not, the material for the bridge or nut.

If we go into more details we can talk about the shape of the instrument, some of them which are more appropriate to create nodles then other shapes, therfore less resonant guitars....

The thickness of the body changes dramatically the way how a guitar will respond to a certain hardware combination. 

The action and the way the neck is set up will have a huge influence, the higher the action , the more tension, the more sustain for exemple....

The pickups is the biggest ingredient to the tone of the final instrument..... 

String guages change tone...... String brand selection.......

A truss rod can affect tone in many ways, some neck reinforcement graphite rods can also kill the vibrations of a specific neck.......

Wood grade selection has nothing to do with the tone of the instrument, some woods that are considered to be inferior actually are the best sounding woods ever...

If you study the history of violins, you will learn that the most gorgeous sounding instrument actually where constructed with the most inferior tonewood ever..... (uneaven colour, the grains not quatersawn, knots etc) 

More information if you buy the constructing an archtop guitar with Bob Benedetto.....

The thype of finish will have an effect on the tone to a certain degree....

Some factory use this ''tonewood'' for bad marketing, like for exemple:

''on our mahogany bodies, we add a maple top to brighten the overall sound of the instrument ''  

Next thing you see is a video of a rock star speaking about the advantage of a maple cap to brighten up the sound of the instrument, next thing you know this same rock star will all of a sudden become a self proclaimed luthier with years of experience and will talk about neck joints in the design of his custom made guitar.... next thing you know, all his fans are watching the video and now all want to buy the guitar and believe word to word what he just said.... (nobody here is thinking a second about the advantage the factory will have in therms of marketing doing this, they endorsed him and probably paid him money for this, the only thing he must do is claim that this is the best and convince the audience..........)

Most people also have no idea how to listen to the tone which a specific board produces, how does the board need to be hold in order to listen to ''tap tone'' ?....... Many hear ''you must tap the wood to hear the tapetone.....''  it does not work like that and chances are if you throw out a piece of wood that does not resonate its because you have no idea how to hold the board when your tapping it to listen to its tone....

Anyway, just wanted to share a little bit of what I think after having built over 200 instruments with my 2 hands 

And believe me I learn everyday something new when I work with wood 

A guitar maker with experience will know how to build the guitar in order to determine the sound you want from it....

Sorry for my bad english


----------



## Raoul Duke (May 12, 2009)

We are spolit with the amount good builders on this site who provide us with info


----------



## kmanick (May 12, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmmm????
interesting posts in this thread.
The J-custom I just recently picked up has EMGs in it and it actually sounds really pretty good.
The Hellraiser 7 and the Loomis I had both had the same pickups in it yet 
sounded completely different to me (much much brighter and "twangier") than they do in this guitar. 

My tech actually states the same thought (the pickup is the most important ingrediant to the final sound").


----------



## hufschmid (May 12, 2009)

kmanick said:


> My tech actually states the same thought (the pickup is the most important ingrediant to the final sound").



 with a high quality pickup IMHO you can controle 80% of the final sound you want if not more.....


----------



## canuck brian (May 12, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> with a high quality pickup IMHO you can controle 80% of the final sound you want if not more.....



Kinda like the difference in using a shitty microphone and a good one.


----------



## scottro202 (May 12, 2009)

there's a difference. I remember hearing the new Charvel guitars (super-strat ones). they are typical strats, but have floyds and humbuckers. they still sounded like strats, just with more balls (humbuckers)


----------



## silentrage (May 12, 2009)

I know this is obvious to some people, but when it comes to recorded guitar sounds, the room has SO MUCH to do with the tone. 
I recently met a forumite who let me play his IIC+, and he told me he has a pro audio friend come over with a 57 and some recording gear to try and record some stuff in his basement with a PGm300 through the IIC+. It sounded like a line 6 spider combo! And his friend said it was mostly the room's fault.


----------



## hufschmid (May 12, 2009)

silentrage said:


> I know this is obvious to some people, but when it comes to recorded guitar sounds, the room has SO MUCH to do with the tone.
> I recently met a forumite who let me play his IIC+, and he told me he has a pro audio friend come over with a 57 and some recording gear to try and record some stuff in his basement with a PGm300 through the IIC+. It sounded like a line 6 spider combo! And his friend said it was mostly the room's fault.



This makes perfect sens actually 

Its like if you would place an amp in front of the wall of the other way around, the sound waves go true elements and can totally change the way they will sound....

This is exactly why its very difficult to record a classical music orchestra because most of it must be done acoustically, the place in which they play is crucial.....

In montreux, the famous jazz festival stravinsky scene is built for maxi acoustic performance so they can record videos for tv shows.... 

Sound is so complexe, its a science


----------



## TMM (May 12, 2009)

I think either Chris L. or Mike S. brought this up at one point - while the wood does make a difference, the pickups determine 80-85% of the guitar's tone. So, if you put the same pickups in 2 guitars that have similar setups except the body wood, they should sound at least around 85% the same.

Edit: the Huf beat me to it.


----------



## kmanick (May 12, 2009)

I'm not much of JS fan but in a 7 string I think it just f'n kills.
what trem does Ibanez use on the JS (it looks different than the trems on the 1527 and 7620's)




hufschmid said:


> This makes perfect sens actually
> 
> Its like if you would place an amp in front of the wall of the other way around, the sound waves go true elements and can totally change the way they will sound....
> 
> ...


----------



## El Caco (May 12, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> with a high quality pickup IMHO you can controle 80% of the final sound you want if not more.....





TMM said:


> I think either Chris L. or Mike S. brought this up at one point - while the wood does make a difference, the pickups determine 80-85% of the guitar's tone. So, if you put the same pickups in 2 guitars that have similar setups except the body wood, they should sound at least around 85% the same.
> 
> Edit: the Huf beat me to it.



But 80-85% the same when talking about tone is a big difference. I agree the pickup is a large part of the sound, there is no mistaking the sound of the 707 in the RG7EXFX or the Ochoteco, they both sound like a 707 and yet the guitars can not be compared the Ochoteco kills the RG tonally. With passive pups the difference is even greater.

Digital modeling of amps is over 95% these day IMO but that is not good enough for so many people. The fact remains that tonewood plays a part in your tone, I don't think there is a wrong choice for tonewoods, it's a personal preference thing. I have heard great tone from every tonewood including basswood but I prefer almost everything over basswood. I do think that some pups just don't work great with certain woods however.


----------



## hufschmid (May 12, 2009)

s7eve said:


> I do think that some pups just don't work great with certain woods however.



Yes because this is why I love guitar building so much, its facinating....

Wood is a living creature, there is not 1 piece of wood which is identical, therfore every piece of wood can react totally differently even if it comes from the same piece of wood from the same tree....

Thats why the guitar maker must develope some ''feel'' at one point so that he can feel the wood he is working with 

Just like when I mentioned that some shapes can create nodles, when in fact some may not because wood is never the same....


----------



## robotsatemygma (May 13, 2009)

demolisher said:


> I really think people need to start looking more into bass tonewoods for guitars.



When I played bass I had 3 basses... a borrowed Peavey T-40( or something, early '80s, 2 stock split coil humbuckers, mahogany I think, bolt-on maple neck), Peavey Milestone(basswood I believe, stock P-Pickup, bolt-on maple neck) and an Ibanez GSR200(Agathis body, stock PJ pickups, bolt-on maple neck) and the difference was HUGE! 

I was running them through a Peavey Combo 115 and I personally had preference with the Ibanez GSR200 for some odd reason. It resonated better, played, and overall had a better tone then the basses in my arsenal. I could achieve slapping and popping tones and sub worthy tones better with this then the other basses. Agathis in guitars... not a good idea. There's a reason people are not running around making guitars out of wenge, purpleheart, and other tonewoods. These react differently in a bass context versus guitar. 

With guitar I find more things contribute to your overall tone. People are not going to achieve an In Justice for All tone with a Roland Cube with a basswood Ibanez loaded with DiMarzios. You're going to use EMGS in an Alder Floyd (or mahogany TOM) with slaved Marshalls going through Mesas and what not and even then you're partially there.

Additionally I believe the construction of the guitar is one of the major players in tone. I have a maple neck through mahogany MH-300 and it sounds worlds apart from a Les Paul and other similar mahogany guitars with a set neck construction. Why? Because the maple neck on my MH-300 is a main contributor to it's tone. Other factors involved are bridge, pots, capacitors, wiring, and pickups. 

Again... I believe tone is mainly in your fingers and mind. When I played with an old bass player he couldn't get it. I could show him all day what to play... note for note and he could get that but not the feel. But once I played it through his rig on his bass... my drummer would comment on how it sounded different and that I should record the bass.

So overall... no I don't believe tonewood is overblown. It's a major weapon in your tonal arsenal, just not as important then your fingers.


----------



## hufschmid (May 13, 2009)

You know this story about this dude who had a 1955 Gibson Les Paul gold top?

Everybody was  about the guitar and its incredible tone and soul...

Then the owner changed the logo of the headstock and changed the name ''Gibson'' to ''Maison'' making sure that the replacement work was perfect so that nobody could see it.....

Strangely everybody found that the guitar sounded and played like shit


----------



## robotsatemygma (May 13, 2009)

They must of been Gibson purists! 

What I was trying to say was I expected to hear similar qualities... but I didn't. The MH-300 to me, sounded superior for my playing.


----------



## guitarjerry (Jun 8, 2009)

You know I bet if mahogany was the common wood and basswood the rare one, their respective popularity would be reversed, everyone would want the basswood because it sounds different.


----------



## heffergm (Jun 8, 2009)

guitarjerry said:


> You know I bet if mahogany was the common wood and basswood the rare one, their respective popularity would be reversed, everyone would want the basswood because it sounds different.



Bingo!


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jun 8, 2009)

guitarjerry said:


> You know I bet if mahogany was the common wood and basswood the rare one, their respective popularity would be reversed, everyone would want the basswood because it sounds different.



I personally like Mahogany for how it sounds, not because it's rare. I doubt a lot guitarists even know that Mahogany is rarer than Basswood.


----------



## -Nolly- (Jun 8, 2009)

Thank god for Hufschmid in this thread (and noodleplugerine earlier on).
There is no doubt that two guitars that happen to be built from different woods will sound different, but two guitars built from the same wood species can sound just as different. To put all differences down to the species of wood (and not even a subspecies at that) is to completely miss the bigger picture of the physical properties of the pieces of wood used.


----------



## loktide (Jun 8, 2009)

different woods WILL sound different. as the density and 'stiffness' (among other factors) of different wood types differ, you'll have different resonance frequencies and damping.

but then, like with everything related to guitar & music gear there's the big 'voodoo' and 'mojo' factor involved, which often makes "tonewood" overblown.


----------



## technomancer (Jun 8, 2009)




----------



## PMSM (Jun 8, 2009)

Yes, beating a dead horse... but beating it more accelerates decomposition. I've built a few guitars and I do not enter a build saying: I want this sound so I'll use this wood. It's more: this wood MAY sound like this but who the hell knows, now I'm curious... so I just build it, pop in some pickups that don't fail me (JB/Jazz) and play it, and really listen to it for about 2 minutes. Sure they all sound different but that's what makes building custom guitars interesting. You really don't have an absolute answer to what it will sound like, nor do you have to. If you did, why build or try anything new at all?

I would simply say don't get sucked into over-analysis. We are humans, how it looks/feels/plays/tastes all affect our perception more than we would like to admit. When you say "ZERO difference in sound" well that is great! Just play what you like, what YOU think sounds good, and make music. I would say the tonewood generalizations people make ARE indeed a bit overblown. Why? It's reducing the pot of thousands of variables that contribute to the sound down to ONE. I would never tell anyone when building a custom guitar, hey, I'll just make it outta mahogany and maple and it'll sound like a LP! The most prominent variables to tone I've experienced are: the player, mic position, the amp/cab, the room, the other instruments your playing with, pickups, then 'the guitar.' All of my guitars sound good, albeit slightly different through the same rig. However, I generally only record with the ones that play and feel the best since it promotes the best performance out of me, which, to me, is more important than the minutia that only I or a few golden-eared anal retentive purists can tell. The latter folk, most of which who have the 'golden-eye' wired in series with the ear anyway. Mojo is to be left in the sack...

Phil


----------



## scottro202 (Jun 8, 2009)

Scali said:


> Who needs wood anyway?
> Ibanez, Parker, Steinberger and Catalyst have all experimented with other materials, like special kinds of plastics, carbon and such.
> And those guitars actually sounded good in their own right.


 
there's also this company, rainwood (I think) and they make carbon fiber acoustics, that don't warp and stuff


----------



## jymellis (Jun 8, 2009)

i have 2 ibanez S7420s. one that is solid mohogany and one with a flame maple top. both have identical string sets, stok pups, and same tuning. the maple top is much brighter than the solid mohogany.


----------



## PMSM (Jun 8, 2009)

scottro202 said:


> there's also this company, rainwood (I think) and they make carbon fiber acoustics, that don't warp and stuff



The company is 'Rainsong'

I just read an acoustics study comparing one of their fibre guitars to a similarly built (not possible?!). Interesting stuff!

Phil


----------



## Cheesebuiscut (Jun 8, 2009)

heffergm said:


> Overblown? Absolutely.
> Irrelevant? No.



/thread back on page 4... why is this still alive?


----------



## billy (Dec 2, 2009)

Isn't it true that solid bodies are used in electric guitars in order to reduce vibration and therefore feedback from the loud stage speakers? If the solid bodies don't vibrate, then it shouldn't affect the tone much wouldn't it? 

Perhaps pickups and neck wood have a greater impact on tone?


----------



## silentrage (Dec 2, 2009)

^ Don't think so.
Had a 7620 with a set of BKPs, then got a 2027 and threw the same set in, only conceivable difference was the mahogany body.
Big difference in tone.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 2, 2009)

silentrage said:


> ^ Don't think so.
> Had a 7620 with a set of BKPs, then got a 2027 and threw the same set in, only conceivable difference was the mahogany body.
> Big difference in tone.



Could be the rest of your electronics. Electronic components do not always measure up to the rating that is printed on them.


----------



## silentrage (Dec 2, 2009)

Possibly, but wouldn't it be more likely the wood? 
Electronics COULD have off ratings, but how many are so off in the millions put into ibanez guitars every year that you can hear a big tonal difference through the same pickups and same amp?


----------



## dnoel86 (Dec 2, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> Isn't the AX7221 a short-scale guitar? There's your meat right there. Not sure about the S7320, but it does have different pickups than all the others, right? Wonder how they'd sound in one of the other guitars.



They're the same pickups.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 2, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Possibly, but wouldn't it be more likely the wood?
> Electronics COULD have off ratings, but how many are so off in the millions put into ibanez guitars every year that you can hear a big tonal difference through the same pickups and same amp?



I remember seeing a post on another forum in which a guy bought a bunch of resistors from a company, and when he checked them against his multimeter, he had wildly different numbers from what the manufacturer had stated. Mind you, these were cheap resistors, but that's not to say that Ibanez would put different brands of components on different lines, perhaps even specific to the factory of origin and year of production. It's also possible that the capacitor on the tone pot of your 7620 and 2027 were of different ratings; that would affect tone quite a bit.

I don't know, I don't buy into tonewood. The bridge and nut are going to be the main points of contact for the string on any guitar, and if you have a locking trem, then this is all the more true.


----------



## signalgrey (Dec 2, 2009)

there are so many factors to consider. even proper wiring, wire quality from guitar to guitar. I still maintain its the guitar YOU chose that makes it what it is. Im sure there are large correlations but, i was borrowing a Les Paul from a friend for over a year and when i played it through my rig it sounded great. When he played it through my rig it sounded like dump.

so many factors. My favorite guitar i own...costs $350. it just sounds the best. i dont even care what the wood or wiring is. hahaha.


----------



## silentrage (Dec 2, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> I remember seeing a post on another forum in which a guy bought a bunch of resistors from a company, and when he checked them against his multimeter, he had wildly different numbers from what the manufacturer had stated. Mind you, these were cheap resistors, but that's not to say that Ibanez would put different brands of components on different lines, perhaps even specific to the factory of origin and year of production. It's also possible that the capacitor on the tone pot of your 7620 and 2027 were of different ratings; that would affect tone quite a bit.
> 
> I don't know, I don't buy into tonewood. The bridge and nut are going to be the main points of contact for the string on any guitar, and if you have a locking trem, then this is all the more true.



Yeah, you might be right, hopefully someone does a more scientific study on how much each factor contributes to the tone.


----------



## norrin radcliff (Dec 2, 2009)

When I bought my MAB 1, I played 3 of them back to back. All were alder with EMGs. 

I played them acoustically, through a clean amp, and through a dirty amp. 

All 3 sounded slightly different - enough that my crap ears could hear the difference.

So, I guess I'm saying that as "identical" as you can get them, you will still even be able to find tonal differences between the same wood species (alder in this case).


----------



## Euthanasia (Dec 2, 2009)

I disagree.
I had an Ibanez 7421 with tonezone 7 in the bridge (kinda bassy pickup) and shecter c-7 blackjack with JB-7 IN THE BRIDGE (not a bassy pickup) and the blackjack due to it's mahogany body had much more low end, even tho both had maple necks and rosewood fretboards.

Any way, it's enough to play unplugged on different guitars with different woods to notice the differeces.


----------



## Dusty201087 (Dec 2, 2009)

signalgrey said:


> there are so many factors to consider. even proper wiring, wire quality from guitar to guitar.* I still maintain its the guitar YOU chose that makes it what it is*



 Especially the bolded part. 

I really think that it's not the TYPE of wood, it's the quality of it. 

But I've always thought each player has an individual tone that stems from how/where they pick the strings and their technique. Then I think the pick has a lot to do with it. IMO besides the amp, the pickups are the most important thing. 

I don't really know, but it is near impossible to do a totally scientific test with one variable, so I don't think we'll ever know  I don't really make a big deal about wood, as long as it's high quality stuff and will hold up then it's cool with me


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Dec 3, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Yeah, you might be right, hopefully someone does a more scientific study on how much each factor contributes to the tone.



I'm sure there have been plenty. 
But, like Dusty201087 said, it's hard to get it down to just one variable. And just because there's a study, it doesn't mean that it will get enough publicity, and some people will always ignore the study, anyway, going with what they feel on the matter, regardless of any empirical evidence.


----------



## shredfreak (Dec 3, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> I remember seeing a post on another forum in which a guy bought a bunch of resistors from a company, and when he checked them against his multimeter, he had wildly different numbers from what the manufacturer had stated. Mind you, these were cheap resistors, but that's not to say that Ibanez would put different brands of components on different lines, perhaps even specific to the factory of origin and year of production. It's also possible that the capacitor on the tone pot of your 7620 and 2027 were of different ratings; that would affect tone quite a bit.
> 
> I don't know, I don't buy into tonewood. The bridge and nut are going to be the main points of contact for the string on any guitar, and if you have a locking trem, then this is all the more true.



If you buy resistor or any other electronical components there's always a tolerance indicator. With some cheap ones that tolerance can be up to 20% ...

As for the topic. Think the best sounding guitar i've ever owned was a 400$ cort. The densitiy of that wood was just great. Think it was mahogany if i remember correctly.


----------



## Werwolf999 (Dec 3, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> Especially the bolded part.
> 
> I really think that it's not the TYPE of wood, it's the quality of it.
> 
> ...



Tones are, imo, a highly subjective thing to begin with. What sounds great to you could, just as easily, sound like absolute rubbish to the guy standing next to you and vice-versa. 

Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration when talking about tones, is that each person will physically hear the same tone differently.


----------

