# Where has the bass gone?



## guns_of_minerva (Apr 21, 2021)

With the register of guitars getting ever lower where has the bass gone? Personally I would like to see guitarists being reigned back up to e standard or D/drop D. Let the bassists do their job and lets have some interesting dynamic songs again!





Maybe I'm just old and miss the 90's hard rock/metal sound.

I love Meshuggah but I think they have something to do with it 

This example has great bass tone, however you can hear that for most of the song the guitars and bass occupy the same space just different frequencies (with a lot of crossover due the the guitars tuning). The brilliant thing about this song is the ending where you get a juxtaposition where the lead guitar solo separates and you are left in awe.

I mean in this song Periphery could have just used a EHX POG and the bassist could have taken a vacation:


Its ironic that Nolly is mr Darkglass...


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## gnoll (Apr 21, 2021)

Well, often its job is just to blend with the guitars. I guess that makes things sound "heavy" or something.

I think bass guitar is a very underutilized instrument. Especially when not having keyboards or melodic vocals, bass guitar could add a lot of interest to the music, playing harmonies or flavorful lines, but these days mostly it doesn't. A shame I think.

Some music with great bass imo:


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## Pat (Apr 21, 2021)

I think it depends on the type of metal you're listening to - agree that a lot of the djent stuff sounds bass-less. Whereas a lot of death metal nowadays has very prominent bass. Job For A Cowboy's Suneater stands out from recent years as a bass heavy album:


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## StevenC (Apr 21, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Personally I would like to see guitarists being reigned back up to e standard or D/drop D.


You might be on the wrong forum, buddy.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 21, 2021)

StevenC said:


> You might be on the wrong forum, buddy.



Hahaha, You know what I mean!


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## StevenC (Apr 21, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Hahaha, You know what I mean!


Ah, 8 string E Standard. Gotcha!


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## j3ps3 (Apr 21, 2021)

Bass goes down just the same. They still have their own place in the mix frequency-wise regardless of the tuning. In fact, IMO bass is much more present nowadays in metal than on the old records I love listen to.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 21, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Its ironic that Nolly is mr Darkglass...




In my opinion PIV mix is weak. Too prominent in mid-honky frequencies and weak low end, you can hear the bass itself, it has a lot of mids and clank but the low end is very weak. I don't think it's a very good example for modern metal mixes. I enjoy this album and listening to it on it's own it does sound good to me, but if you compare it to other metal productions you can clearly hear the difference.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 21, 2021)

I Think this is great example of bass done right in modern rock/metal



Solid song writing and arrangement. Bass and guitar come together but still have their spaces and complimenting parts.

And yes I would love Steph to go back to 6 strings for the next album.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 21, 2021)

I think one of the biggest problems is so much modern music is being mixed by guitarists so they want the guitars as large and cutting as possible which means cutting so much out of the bass and various drums(except the bass and kick which needs to be way louder than the rest of the kit). 

One of my favourite modern mixes is because the bass plays such a big part in it:


Especially how Mark Lewis mixed it.


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## zappatton2 (Apr 21, 2021)

I generally agree, I think a lot of metal just buries the bass in the mix, but for every 3 rules, there's always one exception. Was spinning Vektor last night, and I keep being in awe of the bass lines, mind you, they actually tune a half-step _up_! Anyway, my rally cry for this thread is "...and Justice for Newsted"!


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## budda (Apr 21, 2021)

Well bassically the djent wave happened.

Outside of that, bass is still bass.


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## nightflameauto (Apr 21, 2021)

I'd like to see things going the other way. That is to say, rather than having basses tuned in unison with 7, 8, etc string guitars, have the bass still an octave down. Some of my favorite mixes I've done personally were 8 string guitars with the bass another octave below them. Even though you don't really get the fundamental at that point, the harmonic content conveys it in such a way that you end up *FEELING* the depth of it in your chest, even at low volumes. It's just a huge, fat tone.

Not that unison tuning has no uses. Some of those dudes tuning down in the 0 octave get some massive sounds with unison tuning. I just have the impression that everybody looks at Meshuggah's way of doing things and think it's the only possible way. It's cool, but there's room for other methods.


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 21, 2021)

I agree with the OP, but I get called a “boomer” often, so there’s that. 

My favorite music is from the 90’s; Alice In Chains, King’s X, Faith No More, STP, Tool, A Perfect Circle, etc. All have great bass players that stood out and weren’t just copying the guitar parts. I could sneak Mudvayne in there as well, since Martini straight up doesn’t give a fuck what the guitars are doing, he just go off and it’s all brilliant. 

You don’t hear about any Mike Inez’, Robert DeLeo’s, Dug Pinnick’s in the modern metal world. It could be due to my ignorance of a lot of modern stuff, but are there any current bass players that have earned a similar kind of recognition? 

You just don’t hear shit like the bass line in “Interstate Love Song” or a bass line carrying an entire song like “No More Tears” or “No Excuses” (both Inez, I just realized that now). 

I’ve recently REALLY fallen in love with playing bass after picking up a new Spector Pulse, I’ve barely touched my guitars in 3 weeks. I can’t speak for the rest of the metal community, but I fully intend on adding the aforementioned bass playing in the music I write....which pretty much just sounds like all the bands I listed above anyway.


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## BenjaminW (Apr 21, 2021)

This was a favorite of mine to watch/listen to years ago.




zappatton2 said:


> Anyway, my rally cry for this thread is "...and Justice for Newsted"!



Highly, highly recommend this to anyone who hasn't heard this yet. I also found an enhanced bass mix of Ride the Lightning on YouTube as well. Fucking rocks.


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## wankerness (Apr 21, 2021)

I felt the same about Meshuggah's post-Chaosphere material at first, but at some point started hearing how the bass tone actually sounds and realized it's probably 50% of their overall tone at least. Maybe it was that bass/drum medley video from some drum festival that was passed around the internet several years ago. Anyway, it sounds totally different from the guitars and is probably louder than either guitar player and thus is absolutely integral to their sound in a way it's not for a lot of other bands.

That said, I still probably prefer that GIGANTIC chunky metallic tone the bass had on Chaosphere when it was an octave lower than the guitars.

There was always questionable bass in metal. Like, I still couldn't pick out anything Tom Araya was doing on 3/4 of Slayer's old material unless there was a bass break. Guys like Sean Malone or Tony Choy or Steve Digorgio were always outliers. I don't think it's a more modern problem at all. And I think as far as pop music/rock bass players went, the 70s were the era where they had the most presence in the music.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 21, 2021)

I'm sorry, but you don't think the bass is an important fixture in that Periphery track and isn't as audible because of the guitar tuning? Remind me again what the fundamental frequency of the low E on a standard-tuned guitar is again...oh yeah, like 84Hz. So I guess we should probably actually tune all guitars up an octave to "stay of out the bass players way". Even with guitar and bass occupying the exact same fundamental frequency the bass still plays an important role in the overall sound and tone of the music. Now whether or not the bass player is gonna do anything interesting...that has nothing to do with tuning.


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## beerandbeards (Apr 21, 2021)

Anything with Nick Schendzelos on will be awesome and the bass will be masterfully in the mix.
As mentioned above Job For a Cowboy “Sun Eater”, Havok “Conformicide” Celphalic Carnage, Nuclear Power Trio....


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## sleewell (Apr 21, 2021)

guitarist shows up to rehearsal with an 8 string


bassist:


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 21, 2021)

ERG Guitars will never replace the sound of a bass, and bass is still alive and well. Broaden your horizons maybe and you'll find it.

There's something extremely obtuse about listing all of these iconic bands and then purposefully picking the one of the most popular bands in the mainstream prog-metal sphere that exposes the lack of effort more than anything. 

Btw Meshuggah is a weird example to point out as well, considering that in practice F#0 and anything in that range sounds like complete garbage. There's distinct reasons why people don't match 8 string guitar with 6/7 string bass. It intonates poorly, stays in tune terribly, and is barely even playable to a professional recording standard. That's the reason Meshuggah extends their guitars to F#, and their bass to B. Instead of sacrificing the low spectrum they want to write in because the bass unfortunately can't hold up in an identical way they let the guitars handle it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Apr 21, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Personally I would like to see guitarists being reigned back up to e standard or D/drop D. Let the bassists do their job and lets have some interesting dynamic songs again!


 But then people couldn't use their 14 string guitars and sound exactly the same! DON'T MAKE PEOPLE DO THINGS!


But yeah that'd be cool. Drop C# is as low as I go and I'm growing more fond of D and E tunings. I really hate that doesn't sound everyone seems to think is the gold standard


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## sakeido (Apr 21, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> ERG Guitars will never replace the sound of a bass, and bass is still alive and well. Broaden your horizons maybe and you'll find it



imo most of it is people just not realizing what they're hearing is actually coming from the bass and not the guitar

Download some Nail the Mix stems, mute the bass and it leaves a giant, gaping hole in the mix even before you start working on it


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## Choop (Apr 21, 2021)

The bass just needs to be present, it isn't necessarily related to the tuning. Just look at Metallica's "...And Justice For All." I do however particularly enjoy bands that mix the bass more forward, or even have only one guitar player and a creative bass player. Tuning higher in itself is one way to let the bass breathe more.

There are a bunch of standouts for me, but one in particular is in my head right now -- the bass player who played with Obscura for Cosmogenesis. They tuned to D standard, but the bass player was also just incredible.


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## akinari (Apr 21, 2021)

It's right here.



But also here.


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## buriedoutback (Apr 21, 2021)

sakeido said:


> imo most of it is people just not realizing what they're hearing is actually coming from the bass and not the guitar
> Download some Nail the Mix stems, mute the bass and it leaves a giant, gaping hole in the mix even before you start working on it



One of the tests I do to my mixes is mute the bass during playback and see what disappears. 
I've actually have people say "I can't hear the bass" and then their jaw drops when I mute it.
*Not claiming I am anywhere near "nail the mix" skill level hahaha


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## Perge (Apr 21, 2021)

Can we just turn this into a "great bass players in metal" thread?

Because Steve DiGiorgio *chefs kiss* love his playing on individual thought patterns.


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## zappatton2 (Apr 21, 2021)

wankerness said:


> There was always questionable bass in metal. Like, I still couldn't pick out anything Tom Araya was doing on 3/4 of Slayer's old material unless there was a bass break. Guys like Sean Malone or Tony Choy or Steve Digorgio were always outliers. I don't think it's a more modern problem at all. And I think as far as pop music/rock bass players went, the 70s were the era where they had the most presence in the music.


I really thought there was great bass presence on Hell Awaits and the Haunting the Chapel EP, but yeah, everything else Slayer is pretty much bassless. I used to like listening to Decade of Aggression through one speaker or headphone, since the guitars were mixed one to a side, and I could actually hear the basslines against Jeff or Kerry's solos.


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## Dayn (Apr 21, 2021)

When I listen to bass-heavy electronic music, I don't go "but why isn't there also a second lower synth doing something different?" A lot of metal relies on the bass and guitars meshing together, whether they're an octave apart or in the same octave, to give it that crushing sound. That's what it does, that's how it's orchestrated.

If you want the bass to do something different, you need to look at a different style that supports it. You don't need to look too far - a lot of Tesseract's music has great distinct bass. But if you want heavy low-tuned riff-oriented metal to do something different with the bass, look for something other than heavy low-tuned riff-oriented metal. Maybe try some of Bach's counterpoint.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Apr 21, 2021)

I think the main reason Iowa is so fucking brutal is how heavy Paul Grey's playing stands out. The guitars are huge with a shit ton of gain and bass, super low tuned, but there's this outrageous rumble under it that builds intensity so well. 

Also, any love for the bass mix on Are You Dead Yet? CoB has always had insane bass playing.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 21, 2021)

So often hear "brutal" and "crushing" when talking about modern metal bands, but Kings X and Winger had far better mixes. Get in your car and crank both and you'll see.



YMMV


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## akinari (Apr 22, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> So often hear "brutal" and "crushing" when talking about modern metal bands, but Kings X



Had one of the best rock mixes of all time with Dogman. Not even fair.


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## Metropolis (Apr 22, 2021)

There it is...


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## Floppystrings (Apr 22, 2021)




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## gnoll (Apr 22, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> whether or not the bass player is gonna do anything interesting...that has nothing to do with tuning.



Eehh, in a way... But the higher the pitch of things the easier they are to separate when listening. So if the bass player DOES do something interesting it'll be easier to hear if the tuning is higher.


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## TheBloodstained (Apr 22, 2021)

I think it's more about the bass tone in metal these days?

The Dingwall / Darkglass metallic and distorted tone is kind of the sought after holy grail these days - and I'm no better myself.
I think that kind of tone have a tendency to "hide in plain sight" within a mix. You think you only hear guitars, but in reality a lot of the sound in the bass.
This only applies to bands where the bass and guitars plays in unison.

Bands with a more virtuosic bass player will always have a more stand out bass sound, simply because you will notice it more when it breaks away from the guitars.
A modern band with great bass sound is TesseracT. Their bass player Amos have an amazing sound and a cool playstyle.

Just a thought though... I could very well be wrong, but I hear a lot of down tuned metal, and I never miss the bass, so... yeah...


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 22, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> So often hear "brutal" and "crushing" when talking about modern metal bands, but Kings X and Winger had far better mixes. Get in your car and crank both and you'll see.
> 
> 
> 
> YMMV



I can't believe I've not heard these guys before (maybe there weren't big in the UK?)! This is awesome!


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 22, 2021)

Hmmm so are we saying Fieldy's bass tone is the foundation of the modern Metallic Clank?


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 22, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> So often hear "brutal" and "crushing" when talking about modern metal bands, but Kings X and Winger had far better mixes. Get in your car and crank both and you'll see.
> 
> 
> 
> YMMV




Well shit, I won’t feel overly guilty posting this now, but I recorded this a couple weeks back right after I got my Spector. Dug Pinnick is half the reason I wanted to play bass (Ryan Martini is the other half) and I’m really working on my finger technique because I don’t want to play with a pick. 



Obviously, the bass is cranked a bit higher in volume so it’ll stand out more, but man, I just love that huge bass tone that has all the clear highs and every bit of the lows. I’m using an AxeFX III for the bass tone on that. It’s an SVT and a Marshall JCM800 #34 (the infamous modded one that Slash tried to steal) into an 8x10 and a OS Recto cab.


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 22, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> I can't believe I've not heard these guys before (maybe there weren't big in the UK?)! This is awesome!



They’re the most underrated band of all time, man. They came out in the late 80’s and they had a little success, had some MTV rotation, but really, them and Sevendust have pretty much had the same careers. They brought so many bands out on tour that surpassed them and it’s just crazy. Both bands have so much melody and you can’t go wrong with Dug or Lajon’s voice, they’re fucking beautiful. 

The whole Dogman album is fucking brilliant. It’s like heavy metal Beatles with all the harmonies. They’re AMAZING live and no one has a bass tone like Dug’s.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 22, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> Well shit, I won’t feel overly guilty posting this now, but I recorded this a couple weeks back right after I got my Spector. Dug Pinnick is half the reason I wanted to play bass (Ryan Martini is the other half) and I’m really working on my finger technique because I don’t want to play with a pick.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, the bass is cranked a bit higher in volume so it’ll stand out more, but man, I just love that huge bass tone that has all the clear highs and every bit of the lows. I’m using an AxeFX III for the bass tone on that. It’s an SVT and a Marshall JCM800 #34 (the infamous modded one that Slash tried to steal) into an 8x10 and a OS Recto cab.




This is awsome!


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 22, 2021)

sakeido said:


> imo most of it is people just not realizing what they're hearing is actually coming from the bass and not the guitar
> 
> Download some Nail the Mix stems, mute the bass and it leaves a giant, gaping hole in the mix even before you start working on it



Exactly, and then they get in the studio and they’ve got their amp dialed in to be bass as fuck and when the engineer asks them to turn the bass down a bit, it turns into a debate over “my sound, man, I need MY sound” or, “It sounds good in here, if you knew what you were doing in there, it’d be great!”. 

Nearly every guitar player I’ve ever played in a band with has pulled this crap and more often than not, refused to tweak their amp to lend itself to a quality recording, so the second they’d leave, the bass player and I would bust out the EQ or multi-band compressor and squash the shit out of the low end and no one ever knew any differently.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 22, 2021)

Listen to how the bass drives this song



Its not being clever, its just there driving the song and setting the vibe.


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## ixlramp (Apr 22, 2021)

The first post makes the mistake of assuming this is about pitch =)
Here are 2 quotes that make the critical points:


j3ps3 said:


> Bass goes down just the same. They still have their own place in the mix frequency-wise regardless of the tuning. In fact, IMO bass is much more present nowadays in metal than on the old records I love listen to.


Exactly.
And yes, i used to listen to the big metal artists in the 1980's and the bass guitar was usually conciously unnoticeable, more so than in modern metal even though there was slightly more pitch separation.
So it is not a case of a nostalgic good-ol'-days 'now versus then' or the pitch of the guitars, it is all to do with the artist's mix, which has always been highly variable.


sakeido said:


> imo most of it is people just not realizing what they're hearing is actually coming from the bass and not the guitar


Exactly.



Jonathan20022 said:


> considering that in practice F#0 and anything in that range sounds like complete garbage


To you personally, some people like it.


Jonathan20022 said:


> There's distinct reasons why people don't match 8 string guitar with 6/7 string bass. It intonates poorly, stays in tune terribly, and is barely even playable to a professional recording standard


Incorrect.
Very low tuned (around F#0) bass guitars intonate and stay in tune quite well, and are entirely playable, as long as you choose a suitable gauge string with sufficient tension. (Obviously the intonation has more error on the high frets, but you do not play up there on a very large gauge for tone and inharmonicity reasons, and do not need to anyway).
The typically undertensioned F#1 on a guitar has more pitch error than a bass guitar tuned to F#0 with a well tensioned string.

Maybe you are referring to people who take a typical B of .130 (which is already low tension) and naively detune it many semitones, obviously that will be problematic.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 22, 2021)

People mistake good solo (individual not lead) guitar tone with proper tone in a mix. You can dial in proper bass eq on a low tuned or 8 string guitar, but in a mix you need to dial it way back so it prob sounds like shit alone but glorious in a mix. To use my previous example I bet Reb Beach's tone is meh on the rhythm tracks but slams in a mix. Same with Ty Tabor.


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## wheresthefbomb (Apr 22, 2021)

To paraphrase my old band's bass player, "no dude, I play guitar."

which is to say, I play baritones tuned to B or A and I take LOTS of bass out in the EQ. like almost all of it. because I play guitar, not bass.

you can tune a guitar to drop-fart, it's still essentially a midrange instrument. Floor, Bongripper, Torche are great examples of this. Bongripper tunes to F but there's no question as to where the bass sits in the mix.


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## coreysMonster (Apr 22, 2021)

Just tossing this clip into the thread to demonstrate how thin Meshuggah's guitar tone is without the bass guitar.


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## RoRo56 (Apr 22, 2021)

As a few people alluded to earlier, if you were to mute the bass in a lot of tracks you would instantly notice the difference. I think people sometimes expect everything to be a focal point of a track, which just isn't possible. Not everything has to be right up in front to make a difference.


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## eaeolian (Apr 22, 2021)

StevenC said:


> You might be on the wrong forum, buddy.


We just went back up to standard, albeit on 7s.


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## gnoll (Apr 22, 2021)

ixlramp said:


> And yes, i used to listen to the big metal artists in the 1980's and the bass guitar was usually conciously unnoticeable, more so than in modern metal even though there was slightly more pitch separation.









I don't know man!


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## USMarine75 (Apr 22, 2021)

gnoll said:


> I don't know man!




Hmm yeah I'm of the other opinion too. Everything from Aerosmith and Poison to Overkill and Testament... the bass is present and a noticeable component of the mix.


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## Karg (Apr 22, 2021)

I know what you mean, and I agree. I really don't see modern examples of something like 46 & 2, where the bass line drives the whole song.

It seems very rare for modern heavy music to have a chorused/delayed bassline tone basically be the lead stringed instrument through an entire song.

Parts like that really break up heavy music in a good way, and people seem to gravitate towards it.


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## Andromalia (Apr 22, 2021)

Pat said:


> I think it depends on the type of metal you're listening to - agree that a lot of the djent stuff sounds bass-less. Whereas a lot of death metal nowadays has very prominent bass. Job For A Cowboy's Suneater stands out from recent years as a bass heavy album:



You'll notice that it goes with un-clicky kick drum. I happen to like that a LOT more than fuck-this-guy-andy-sneap style production.
For the record (no pun intended) I didn't know that band or specific album and I find them awesome.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 22, 2021)

ixlramp said:


> To you personally, some people like it.



Right, I'm sure you could find *someone *who enjoys it. The same way you could find someone who prefers just about anything on this earth, but that isn't validating your point.

There's very little use of bass tuned to F#0 in metal, and you're more than welcome to show me multiple bands that do.



ixlramp said:


> Incorrect.
> Very low tuned (around F#0) bass guitars intonate and stay in tune quite well, and are entirely playable, as long as you choose a suitable gauge string with sufficient tension. (Obviously the intonation has more error on the high frets, but you do not play up there on a very large gauge for tone and inharmonicity reasons, and do not need to anyway).
> The typically undertensioned F#1 on a guitar has more pitch error than a bass guitar tuned to F#0 with a well tensioned string.
> 
> Maybe you are referring to people who take a typical B of .130 (which is already low tension) and naively detune it many semitones, obviously that will be problematic.



Well considering the discussion and all examples are rooted in the rock/metal genres, let's pull from there.

I've personally tried to setup and intonate a Stingray then a Dingwall Combustion and I found the experience to be pretty rough. I believe we used a .175 on the Stingray and a .168 on the Combustion, and neither held up to what we were expecting. 

These are heavy handed bass players playing metal, sometimes with a pick 

It just doesn't hold up in practice, you could tune that low and buy a sub to truly feel the low end you're playing. And you could also pick extremely lightly to make it work, but seemingly recording it is a pain in the ass, then performing it would not be satisfying at all.

This is definitely anecdotal, but I found even my own Stingray unacceptable in Drop A with it's stock gauges (130 - 45). I'm an E Standard/Drop D guitar player, so I keep my basses in B Standard 90% of the time. The guitar just sounds best to me with proper tension all around.

I'm delving into baritone guitars and multiscale for lower tunings right now and it feels way more satisfying than just dealing with loose strings or massive gauges.


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## akinari (Apr 22, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> There's very little use of bass tuned to F#0 in metal, and you're more than welcome to show me multiple bands that do.



Veil of Maya - F#0
After the Burial - F0
Vildhjarta - F0
Northlane - F0
Danza - E0
Iechine - E0, D0
Samo - D0, C#0, B00
Conan - F0
Bongripper - F0
Thou - F#0, D#0
Obscura - F#0
Pestilence - F#0


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## Splenetic (Apr 22, 2021)

budda said:


> Well bassically....



Sneaky sneaky


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 22, 2021)

akinari said:


> Veil of Maya - F#0
> After the Burial - F0
> Vildhjarta - F0
> Northlane - F0
> ...



I could be wrong but Dan Hauser doesn't look like a resting F#0 in vids. He commonly doubles up and plays arpeggios on his multiple high strings as opposed to thicker low strings. I'm familiar with the larger names in that list and I will check out the rest.

I honestly didn't know a lot of these examples tuned their basses an octave down matching the guitar. I definitely don't think I'll be changing my opinion of how it sounds and feels to me personally, but if other people use it and make great music with it I can't fault them. 

Cheers


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)

Just listen to how much space the bass has!


To me what makes this song amazing especially in this recording is the sense of space. Each instrument (including vocals) has juxtaposition, dynamics and space and this can all be heard at the end just before the key change


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)

TheBloodstained said:


> I think it's more about the bass tone in metal these days?
> 
> The Dingwall / Darkglass metallic and distorted tone is kind of the sought after holy grail these days - and I'm no better myself.
> I think that kind of tone have a tendency to "hide in plain sight" within a mix. You think you only hear guitars, but in reality a lot of the sound in the bass.
> ...



I completely agree. I'm a bassist and guitarist. The bassist in me hates the lack of choice in gear and is very jealous of the options my guitarist self has. I would love to see more options for bassists.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)

Also this thread needs this video...


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)




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## mongey (Apr 23, 2021)

I agree with op to a degree. For every good down tuned metal band who give room to the bass and let it breathe , there’s a 100 shitty bands where the bass player just doubles the guitars and is boring as shit.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)

Soundgarden used al sorts of mad tunings and the bass is very much alive and kicking:


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

Most producers, and guitarists don't play bass, that is the main problem.

I play bass, so I know the lows on the guitar can't be too high or there will be no place for the bass to shine. This info sounds like common sense, but it's not.

There are also terrible bass players out there that have no desire to do anything more than pick root notes. They don't care who Cliff Burton was, or what Steve Digiorgio did on the Death albums, they have never tried to play a bass solo, the don't listen to Maiden, they don't listen to Tool. 

One that stands out to me that never gets any recognition, was how Varg played bass on the Mayhem album De Mysteriis Som Santhanas. He trem picked along with the guitars with a distorted bass the entire album, and I can't think of anyone that has done the same. Have a listen:


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## NoodleFace (Apr 23, 2021)

Obscura does it pretty well


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

Cliff was playing with the speed-picked guitars, with fingers, and distortion as far back as Ride the Lightning. His isolated bass tracks aren't very clean, but he was pushing the limits and became god-like by Master of Puppets. I can't find an isolated track of him playing this song and they turned him down before Jason was ever in the band too so hearing what he was playing is kind of hard, so here is a cover to show what he was doing:


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

One thing I am surprised to see is just how many people record with heavy overdrive/distorted bass tones, it helps clarity a lot. This one surprised me a lot, the "growl" people always talk about is a huge misconception, I see a lot of boomers that think "growl" comes from playing hard, or the right bass brand...nope, nasty buzzy distortion carefully hidden in the mix.

Good example Billy Gould:



Now listen to the isolated bass (one of them anyway):



The part at 2:01 in the recording sounds so clean, a lot of bands use one dirty, one clean track and mix, that's kind of the way to do bass distortion in most cases.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)

Another bass line


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## nightflameauto (Apr 23, 2021)

As far as distorted bass, I've been tracking bass by recording a guitar amp with slightly less gain the guitars and folding it in with a DI track or another amp (bass or guitar, doesn't matter much) set much, much cleaner and then blending in the DAW for years. That growl from the guitar amp makes a HUGE difference, ESPECIALLY if you use an amp that's similar to the guitar tone. It makes the bass become one with the guitar when they're playing together, and suddenly it sounds like another guitar part with a much tighter and fatter bottom end when it breaks away and does its own thing.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

nightflameauto said:


> As far as distorted bass, I've been tracking bass by recording a guitar amp with slightly less gain the guitars and folding it in with a DI track or another amp (bass or guitar, doesn't matter much) set much, much cleaner and then blending in the DAW for years. That growl from the guitar amp makes a HUGE difference, ESPECIALLY if you use an amp that's similar to the guitar tone. It makes the bass become one with the guitar when they're playing together, and suddenly it sounds like another guitar part with a much tighter and fatter bottom end when it breaks away and does its own thing.



I do the exact same thing. Bass through the guitar amp with distortion and overdrive turned down a bit, with DI bass or Ampeg bass software for the clean.

This video explains it using just one bass head, using both channels at the same time, he even mentions using a guitar amp as well:


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

double post


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## VGK17 (Apr 23, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> One thing I am surprised to see is just how many people record with heavy overdrive/distorted bass tones, it helps clarity a lot. This one surprised me a lot, the "growl" people always talk about is a huge misconception, I see a lot of boomers that think "growl" comes from playing hard, or the right bass brand...nope, nasty buzzy distortion carefully hidden in the mix.
> 
> Good example Billy Gould:
> 
> ...



Billy Gould was one of my top 5 influences on bass because of his sound and how his basslines were really the core of the songs. King for a Day is my favorite FNM song in large part because of the bass.


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## budda (Apr 23, 2021)

Have we mentioned Max Lavelle, the bassist for The Black Dahlia Murder yet? He's a modern guy who a) finger picks and b) doesn't just follow along.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 23, 2021)

Since we're talking about Billy Gould, he still has that iconic fucking bass tone on the most recent FNM record


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 23, 2021)

Whenever a thread like this pops up, all I can think of is that it's more of a sign of just how much music is out there and how we digest it all, which is to say we simply can't.

The bar for entry into making recorded music is so incredibly low now, it seems to get lower by the day. 

There are probably more great bass players now, laying done more great tracks, in more great bands, than any other time in history. It's just we'll never hear them because there simply are too many.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 23, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Whenever a thread like this pops up, all I can think of is that it's more of a sign of just how much music is out there and how we digest it all, which is to say we simply can't.
> 
> The bar for entry into making recorded music is so incredibly low now, it seems to get lower by the day.
> 
> There are probably more great bass players now, laying done more great tracks, in more great bands, than any other time in history. It's just we'll never hear them because there simply are too many.


The signal to noise ratio is way to high!


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> The signal to noise ratio is way to high!



The story around the band Scary Kids Scaring Kids is a rough one. The singer was just 21 on the self titled album, their last.

I could go on, Wood of Ypres, Ligeia, Elysia...they all had so much more to offer. sucks.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

Bringing things back to bass, there used to be direct recordings from Tool's Lateralus album from vinyl on youtube where you could hear how much better the quality is, apparently there was a mistake with the mastering on the CD version. So there is a little gem out there where you can hear "Schism" the best way. I think the issue had something to do with being overly compressed. I tried to find a clip but you know how youtube is...all gone.


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## Perge (Apr 23, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> The story around the band Scary Kids Scaring Kids is a rough one. The singer was just 21 on the self titled album, their last.
> 
> I could go on, Wood of Ypres, Ligeia, Elysia...they all had so much more to offer. sucks.



Not to derail, but what's the story on SKSK?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 23, 2021)

Steve Harris and Lemmy did their best to keep it alive and in the forefront.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

Perge said:


> Not to derail, but what's the story on SKSK?



The singer Tyson Stevens was really talented and did the vocals, programming, guitars, and bass at age 19 on the first album, in 2005. The second self titled album from 2007 showed a HUGE growth in talent and production but with lyrics even darker than the first album, with things hinting about addiction, suicide, the entire album was composed as a whole thing instead of a collection of songs, they even got a record deal with RCA from it but...when they were touring he often missed shows and they had a vocalist fill in, by 2010 the band had broken up after a lot of issues. On the self titled they had songs like, "The Deep End", "Holding On", "A Pistol to my Temple", "Derailed", "Set Sail", and the last track "The Power of Resolution". He died from a heroin overdose in 2014 at age 29.

This is the first song I heard from them, and I wondered why it had so little views/listens:


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## hayfever (Apr 23, 2021)

Sadly I don't think Evan Brewer is currently working with any bands but his work with Entheos and earlier albums with Animosity were incredible, not to mention his great solo albums. Amazing teacher too, has some masterclasses recorded on yt


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## Floppystrings (Apr 23, 2021)

hayfever said:


> Sadly I don't think Evan Brewer is currently working with any bands but his work with Entheos and earlier albums with Animosity were incredible, not to mention his great solo albums. Amazing teacher too, has some masterclasses recorded on yt



I just found this, he is very skilled and it seems like under used during the Animosity days. That's another band that seemed to end too soon:


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## Perge (Apr 23, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> The singer Tyson Stevens was really talented and did the vocals, programming, guitars, and bass at age 19 on the first album, in 2005. The second self titled album from 2007 showed a HUGE growth in talent and production but with lyrics even darker than the first album, with things hinting about addiction, suicide, the entire album was composed as a whole thing instead of a collection of songs, they even got a record deal with RCA from it but...when they were touring he often missed shows and they had a vocalist fill in, by 2010 the band had broken up after a lot of issues. On the self titled they had songs like, "The Deep End", "Holding On", "A Pistol to my Temple", "Derailed", "Set Sail", and the last track "The Power of Resolution". He died from a heroin overdose in 2014 at age 29.
> 
> This is the first song I heard from them, and I wondered why it had so little views/listens:




Damn. Yeah, I remember picking up the city sleeps in flames shortly before the self titled dropped IIRC, wasn't super huge in my musical group but I really enjoyed it. Sad to hear that's how it all went though :/


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## NotDonVito (Apr 23, 2021)

Has anyone here seen Rings of Saturn live? they don't use a bass player and I've always wondered if it sounded bad


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2021)

NotDonVito said:


> Has anyone here seen Rings of Saturn live? they don't use a bass player and I've always wondered if it sounded bad


They still have bass and it sounds great, because its studio-perfect and it can be treated however they want without concern for amps or pickups. For what the bass does in that band another body on stage is hardly necessary. I've seen a handful of bands with programmed or backtracked bass and honestly their live sound was excellent (one of them was Within Destruction who doesn't use a kick drum either, just a trigger pad, and they were the best sounding band on the bill). The only band I've seen use tracks live where it felt cheesy was the Faceless when Evan Brewer couldn't tour. His playing is a feature of any band that he's in and was awkward when the bass was doing something unique and it was coming off a track, but for stuff where it's written for no bass player, or stuff where the bass isn't featured, most people that aren't musicians are not gonna give two shits if the bass is programmed/pre-recorded/made from samples of rhinoceros diarrhea, because if it shakes their naughty bits and stays out of the way, its good. I'm about to dig into this month's Nail the Mix and the Oceano song has programmed bass and drums.


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## Fretless (Apr 23, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> They still have bass and it sounds great, because its studio-perfect and it can be treated however they want without concern for amps or pickups. For what the bass does in that band another body on stage is hardly necessary. I've seen a handful of bands with programmed or backtracked bass and honestly their live sound was excellent (one of them was Within Destruction who doesn't use a kick drum either, just a trigger pad, and they were the best sounding band on the bill). The only band I've seen use tracks live where it felt cheesy was the Faceless when Evan Brewer couldn't tour. His playing is a feature of any band that he's in and was awkward when the bass was doing something unique and it was coming off a track, but for stuff where it's written for no bass player, or stuff where the bass isn't featured, most people that aren't musicians are not gonna give two shits if the bass is programmed/pre-recorded/made from samples of rhinoceros diarrhea, because if it shakes their naughty bits and stays out of the way, its good. I'm about to dig into this month's Nail the Mix and the Oceano song has programmed bass and drums.


To be fair, in many types of venues these days you can literally get by without any instrument and just use backing tracks, and don't get me started on bands using keyboard parts without keyboardists in the band.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 23, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Whenever a thread like this pops up, all I can think of is that it's more of a sign of just how much music is out there and how we digest it all, which is to say we simply can't.
> 
> The bar for entry into making recorded music is so incredibly low now, it seems to get lower by the day.
> 
> There are probably more great bass players now, laying done more great tracks, in more great bands, than any other time in history. It's just we'll never hear them because there simply are too many.



I think it's really easy to say that but how much active listening time is anyone spending discovering vs revisiting?

People always have excuses when it comes to this, but for as saturated as the market is, it's also far easier to listen to new music and filter what you do and don't like. It's a spoonfed thing, and that's fine if that's all you need, but if you're asking where the talent is but not looking for it then


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 23, 2021)

Fretless said:


> To be fair, in many types of venues these days you can literally get by without any instrument and just use backing tracks, and don't get me started on bands using keyboard parts without keyboardists in the band.


90s Van Halen with tracked keyboards resulted in a version of Jump that was better than the studio version.


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## StevenC (Apr 24, 2021)

This thread is devolving into "why isn't modern metal all bass feature songs?"


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## budda (Apr 24, 2021)

StevenC said:


> This thread is devolving into "why isn't modern metal all bass feature songs?"



As well as "bands are running their album sounds live without instruments and this makes me mad!"


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## Alex79 (Apr 24, 2021)

In most metal recordings, the bass is to guitars what the backup singer is to the lead singer.

What really bugs me is how John Myungs playing has lost its place over time in Dream Theater. It’s still there, just not as prominent and audible and interesting how it used to.


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## wankerness (Apr 24, 2021)

Alex79 said:


> In most metal recordings, the bass is to guitars what the backup singer is to the lead singer.
> 
> What really bugs me is how John Myungs playing has lost its place over time in Dream Theater. It’s still there, just not as prominent and audible and interesting how it used to.



I disagree, I think it's usually more audible in their newer recordings than any of their old ones (besides When Dream and Day Unite, the only album in their discography where he's upfront in the mix). They'd have obligatory bass breaks/intros on plenty of songs, but by and large you had to be listening pretty hard for his stuff since DT was primarily the Petrucci/Portnoy (and later Rudess) show.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Apr 24, 2021)

Maybe I'm being negative because I'm in a bad mood. But music & audio visual is a business. And money takes priority over good music, we have no fucking say in it. So I don't think it will get better.

Bass is still here and will always be here. It's such an essential part of music, no matter the genre. It's just the traditional sound that's going away, but there will always be bass nerds & people who love the real instrument enough to keep it alive. Just like there are some people playing mediaval instruments nowadays.


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## Choop (Apr 24, 2021)

Wasn't this a big thing in the 80's, where people thought bass might decline because synths could cover bass + more ground?


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## AltecGreen (Apr 24, 2021)

There was just a thread in a similar vein over on the 'old folks' forum. I pointed out that I find bass playing to be much more prominent in Japanese music. It doesn't even matter the genre. Pop music will have bass solos.


Here's an example of one of my favorite bands out of Japan. Check out the seven string bass.


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## Lopp (Apr 24, 2021)

BenjaminW said:


> This was a favorite of mine to watch/listen to years ago.




That was a fun listen. I think "For Whom the Bell Tolls" was the best example.

Of note, all of those songs had bass players that are standouts in terms of talent and presence, so removing the bass can be more drastically noticeable.

Megadeth "Peace Sells...": This one was interesting because the guitars were EQ'ed to allow room for the bass. Thus, removing the bass made the guitars sound overly thin. I actually dialed in a Engl Savage guitar tone on an AX8 for a recording in drop-D where I used a Spector bass, into a Darkglass B7K, through an Ampeg on the AX8. I later went to play the Savage preset and it sounded thin and brittle alone, but fit the mix perfectly.

"The Trooper" was interesting because a highlight of Maiden songs is to feature Steve Harris's playing. It is a circular logic example of emphasizing how the bass is necessary for a song that emphasizes the bass. Still, it is helpful for showing the lack of bass for someone that is clueless about how bass can be important.

Same can almost be said for "Sweet Leaf" because that is such a bass-heavy song.

I liked the example of "For Whom the Bell Tolls" the best because, as opposed to "Peace Sells...", the guitar still sound thick without the bass, but adding the bass back in is super noticeable because Cliff was so integral to their sound.



BenjaminW said:


> This was a favorite of mine to watch/listen to years ago.
> Highly, highly recommend this to anyone who hasn't heard this yet. I also found an enhanced bass mix of Ride the Lightning on YouTube as well. Fucking rocks.




That was awesome. I always disliked AJFA due to lack of bass. No disrespect intended for those that love the original recording, as it does have an aggressive gritty rawness, which I can hear as appealing to those that like that sound.


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## xAtRx (Apr 24, 2021)

I think there might be a guitar in there somewhere but I could be wrong!!


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## Emperoff (Apr 24, 2021)

I'll just drop the (nuclear) bomb here:


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 25, 2021)

Take the latest Tool album for example, there isn't a 46&2, schism or the pot style bass led song. However the bass is present, interesting and plays a massive role in all the songs. I read an interview with Justin Chancellor where he talk about talks about how he wanted his bass to be more subtle.

https://www.guitarworld.com/feature...-gives-an-inside-look-at-the-bands-next-album

For me its about the song writing, the bass guitar is a powerful instrument it can fill so many roles in a song and empower the other instruments and allow them to do other things.


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## StevenC (Apr 25, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Take the latest Tool album for example, there isn't a 46&2, schism or the pot style bass led song. However the bass is present, interesting and plays a massive role in all the songs. I read an interview with Justin Chancellor where he talk about talks about how he wanted his bass to be more subtle.
> 
> https://www.guitarworld.com/feature...-gives-an-inside-look-at-the-bands-next-album
> 
> For me its about the song writing, the bass guitar is a powerful instrument it can fill so many roles in a song and empower the other instruments and allow them to do other things.


You're comparing how essentially a power trio constructs their music to a band that has a trio of guitarists. 

Obviously bass is going to be more important in Tool than Periphery when it makes up 25% of the band.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 25, 2021)

StevenC said:


> You're comparing how essentially a power trio constructs their music to a band that has a trio of guitarists.
> 
> Obviously bass is going to be more important in Tool than Periphery when it makes up 25% of the band.



How about this for an example then?





There is a lot going on some times absolute chaos but all 3 guitars have their space with the bass anchoring things done and providing the groove


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## Alex79 (Apr 25, 2021)

6 pages of thread about bass guitar and no video of Manowar???


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 25, 2021)

Alex79 said:


> 6 pages of thread about bass guitar and no video of Manowar???




This is a great example of how bass impacts a song!


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 26, 2021)

Fretless said:


> To be fair, in many types of venues these days you can literally get by without any instrument and just use backing tracks, and don't get me started on bands using keyboard parts without keyboardists in the band.


 I'll take releasing music and playing shows over waiting until the lineup is intact to get shit done. The only people who ever care about back tracks are the 10 other people in bands.


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## Fretless (Apr 26, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I'll take releasing music and playing shows over waiting until the lineup is intact to get shit done. The only people who ever care about back tracks are the 10 other people in bands.


Who even cares about playing shows if you're not playing em. I'll go to a club if I want to listen to pre-recorded music


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 26, 2021)

Fretless said:


> Who even cares about playing shows if you're not playing em. I'll go to a club if I want to listen to pre-recorded music


Bands playing for the favor of other musicians is a losing endeavor. I'd hardly say having 15% of your FOH sound on backing tracks isn't "playing a show" especially if the stuff that's covered isn't someone who is standing on stage. But you keep up with your TRVE shit if it makes you happy.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 26, 2021)

... going back to bass.

I think one of the symptoms of bass lacking in modern metal is the rhythm section don't get locked in and groove.

I know this isn't metal but to me its still heavy and kicks ass!



The way the drums (that snare!) and bass are locked in really drives the song and provides the energy which the rest of the band vibe off.

N.B

Interesting mix, at the end of the during the epic solo, the bass is panned left whilst the guitar shreds on the right


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## Fretless (Apr 26, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Bands playing for the favor of other musicians is a losing endeavor. I'd hardly say having 15% of your FOH sound on backing tracks isn't "playing a show" especially if the stuff that's covered isn't someone who is standing on stage. But you keep up with your TRVE shit if it makes you happy.


If I go live, I want to hear things performed, not prerecorded. Doesn't matter if it's 15%, that's 15% less I enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that being my preference. I have youtube music if I want to listen to things that are pre-recorded. You have your preference, I have mine.



guns_of_minerva said:


> ... going back to bass.
> 
> I think one of the symptoms of bass lacking in modern metal is the rhythm section don't get locked in and groove.



Part of my problem is that so many people typecast bass as a support only instrument (I should clarify in that I know you're not saying this, but I am just stating a generality I have observed over the last 18 years of playing bass). I really dig what The Omnific does with having two bassists and a drummer. They've found very creative ways to make the music engaging and fun with basses and a drum kit.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 26, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Bands playing for the favor of other musicians is a losing endeavor. I'd hardly say having 15% of your FOH sound on backing tracks isn't "playing a show" especially if the stuff that's covered isn't someone who is standing on stage. But you keep up with your TRVE shit if it makes you happy.



I think it depends on the context, I saw NIN play a 500 capacity venue in London. A lot of the backing synths FX etc where backing tracks off Ableton, it was one of the best gigs I've ever been to.

I saw The Knife for their last albums tour. I don't think they were even there, I saw the FOH take out a CD and play it for Dancers on stage, Worst gig ever and it cost £40 x 2!



> Bands playing for the favor of other musicians is a losing endeavor


This is well off topic however I disagree with this, if you can find some like minded people doing similar stuff you can make a nice little scene and hopefully cool stuff (collaboration, support slots, putting on DIY gigs etc ) happens from that!


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 26, 2021)

I do think the bass gets thought of too often as an instrument that only has one job, ever, in a band context and that's too bad because there are lots of cool sounds in there. 



guns_of_minerva said:


> This is well off topic however I disagree with this, if you can find some like minded people doing similar stuff you can make a nice little scene and hopefully cool stuff (collaboration, support slots, putting on DIY gigs etc ) happens from that!


Oh you can definitely have fun with it, one of the bands I play in is a non-genre-specific post-ish-math-whatever-metal band and its a blast for us, the other bands we play with, and occasionally some of the spectators (we still backtrack keys and samples). I also play guitar in a braindead deathcore band with predictably heavy breakdowns and cool movie samples and backing keys/tracks, backing tracks for sub drops, stage scrims, a pre-programmed light show, etc. One of those bands sells lots of merch and gets asked to play lots of shows (when shows are a thing) and the other has to set up their own shows and find venues and bands, etc. Art projects are fun. Dummy-heavy 4/4 riffs with backtracks (even the bass sometimes if he can't make it to the show) sells lots of t-shirts and puts more butts in the room.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 26, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Bands playing for the favor of other musicians is a losing endeavor. I'd hardly say having 15% of your FOH sound on backing tracks isn't "playing a show" especially if the stuff that's covered isn't someone who is standing on stage. But you keep up with your TRVE shit if it makes you happy.


This is why I'd rather watch a YouTube concert from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, than actually attend a concert today. I don't care if Eddie doesn't play the keyboards (I'd rather have him play the guitar anyways, and I prefer the 90s version of the song Jump), but otherwise, I'm good on the sort of "live" concerts a lot of bands are putting on today. 



GunpointMetal said:


> I'll take releasing music and playing shows over waiting until the lineup is intact to get shit done. The only people who ever care about back tracks are the 10 other people in bands.


Actually quite a few people, musicians and otherwise, had an issue with Paul Stanley miming onstage. Imagine if Yngwie couldn't actually play the shit he released. You know, speeding things up sorta like Vinnie Vincent did. And then on top of that, it came out he mimed along to his solos live, while the sound guy piped in the lead guitar that Yngwie pretended to play. At least Motley Crue was honest about using tracks, though the biggest offender was still allowed to just scat the vocals because he either forgot the words and can't be bothered.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 26, 2021)

So far off topic but. . . 


Spaced Out Ace said:


> Actually quite a few people, musicians and otherwise, had an issue with Paul Stanley miming onstage. Imagine if Yngwie couldn't actually play the shit he released. You know, speeding things up sorta like Vinnie Vincent did. And then on top of that, it came out he mimed along to his solos live, while the sound guy piped in the lead guitar that Yngwie pretended to play. At least Motley Crue was honest about using tracks, though the biggest offender was still allowed to just scat the vocals because he either forgot the words and can't be bothered.


Lip-syncing/miming/not actually playing when you have a body on stage that is suppose to be a part of the band is entirely different thing than replacing an instrument that the drummer or guitarist played in studio that can't be covered live by the people performing. If you hear a keyboard and don't see any keyboards on stage, nobody is being lied to about where that is coming from. If you have to turn around and face your amps every time a solo comes up (*cough* the Faceless *cough*) or we can still clearly hear the vocals when nobody is near a mic, that's something else than just using tracks. 

To bring this back to bass. If you see a band playing live and there is a drummer, a guitarist, and a vocalist on stage but you can hear a bass guitar, do you really feel like you're being deceived in some way? Like I understand if you don't like it, but nobody is lying about anything or covering up a poor performance.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 26, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> So far off topic but. . .
> To bring this back to bass. If you see a band playing live and there is a drummer, a guitarist, and a vocalist on stage but you can hear a bass guitar, do you really feel like you're being deceived in some way? Like I understand if you don't like it, but nobody is lying about anything or covering up a poor performance.



I think its a psychological thing, seeing a band with a bass backing track to me would seem very strange, However if it was a band without a drummer, I would be alright with that and I don't know why.

Take this for example (Awesome bass lines and very influential band):



I am more than happy that the drums are a tape machine, but for some reason if Simon Raymonde was on tape instead it would just be weird.


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## Fretless (Apr 26, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> To bring this back to bass. If you see a band playing live and there is a drummer, a guitarist, and a vocalist on stage but you can hear a bass guitar, do you really feel like you're being deceived in some way? Like I understand if you don't like it, but nobody is lying about anything or covering up a poor performance.


I don't feel deceived per se, but I just generally don't enjoy it. It subtracts from what I get out of a live performance. I don't go to see how good people sound live, I go because I want to see the music performed, so I get disappointed if I hear something but don't see it.


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## Dave Death (Apr 27, 2021)

I think the issue happens when you get to 8 strings. Bass can only go so far before the guitar is competing with it too much. For example if you have a guitar tuned to Drop F that means you need the bass tuned down to Drop F an octave lower, which would be absolute mud.So you end up with the guitar in drop F and the bass in C standard, so that when you play an F it is in the same octave on guitar and bass.

For this reason I have stuck to C standard for both guitar and bass. I think the lowest I would go is Ab standard on both guitar and bass. I have heard some great stuff in that tuning but much below it and it's muddy as hell.

This is just my opinion. I'm sure others know better ...


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## jyym (Apr 27, 2021)

gnoll said:


> Well, often its job is just to blend with the guitars. I guess that makes things sound "heavy" or something.
> 
> I think bass guitar is a very underutilized instrument. Especially when not having keyboards or melodic vocals, bass guitar could add a lot of interest to the music, playing harmonies or flavorful lines, but these days mostly it doesn't. A shame I think.
> 
> Some music with great bass imo:



This is the space occupied by bass guitar in Motown, and I don’t think any genre has really been able to replicate this role adequately.


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## Oxygen Hands (Apr 27, 2021)

I think the tendency to move toward lower and lower tunings has to do with us playing alone in our bedrooms a lot growing up... You get a chunk from lower tunings that perhaps you don't miss when you have bass as well. I know I gravitated from lower tunings back towards closer to standard over time, and I suspect it might be to do with gaining access to basses and recording stuff to play along with bass. 

Not that there's anything wrong with lower tunings (I mean Meshuggah might be my favourite band!) - I just personally don't feel the need for them when I have bass guitar to add beef.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 27, 2021)

Directions for first time listening, turn that volume way up:


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## Agramal (Apr 27, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> I Think this is great example of bass done right in modern rock/metal
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Gotta strongly disagree with you here. Sergio Vega is one of my bass idols - I absolutely loved his work in Quicksand - and he's almost completely inaudible in Deftones due to how low Steph and Chino tune. He's completely wasted in the band in my opinion.


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## StevenC (Apr 27, 2021)

Fretless said:


> I don't feel deceived per se, but I just generally don't enjoy it. It subtracts from what I get out of a live performance. I don't go to see how good people sound live, I go because I want to see the music performed, so I get disappointed if I hear something but don't see it.


Honestly, I don't get this. If I go see Metallica and they play a sample for the piano on Unforgiven III I'm not going to be sad that they didn't schlep a keyboard and player on stage just for that one bit in that one song. In fact, I'm going to be sad that I paid to hear Unforgiven III when they have actually music they could play. Metallica have all the money in the world to make a grand piano appear on stage every night and get Lars lessons to learn to play it, but that adds all of nothing to the performance.

On a smaller scale, if a small niche death metal band has a song with a piano part in it, hiring someone to play that part and lugging a keyboard around could literally be the difference between a show/tour happening or not. And in that case I'd rather see a band with a sample or two than not see a band.

We're not taking about John Petrucci and Mike Mangini touring as Dream Theater with John, James and Jordan's parts as a backing track. We're talking about overall minor overdubs that are pointlessly expensive to recreate live. 

And that's before we consider that lots of these parts weren't ever played to begin with, but programmed. I can't play piano very well, but I can very easily add some synth pads to a track in a daw. I don't think it's reasonable to in turn have to hire a guy to hold some synth drones over a couple tracks. Music isn't just people playing instruments anymore, and rejecting that is incredibly elitist.


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## Codeman (Apr 27, 2021)

AltecGreen said:


> There was just a thread in a similar vein over on the 'old folks' forum. I pointed out that I find bass playing to be much more prominent in Japanese music. It doesn't even matter the genre. Pop music will have bass solos.
> 
> 
> Here's an example of one of my favorite bands out of Japan. Check out the seven string bass.




Look into any kind of japanese pop-rock/metal etc for some real creative and "correct" usage of a bass guitar in modern music. There is some really rich songwriting with enough space for each of the instruments to do it's own thing.

everywhere else in the world, specially in metal genres feels like bass is mostly used as a 3rd electric downtuned guitar 
Most songwriting is so guitar-driven that the bass and voice struggle for a place to fit in.


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 27, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Ah, 8 string E Standard. Gotcha!


Someone give this post an award please.

As a guitarist who primarily plays in 7 string Drop F, the value of bass is still 100% there in modern metal. In fact, as I am typing this, I am practicing an octave-down Drop F slap bassline I composed for one of my band's songs. As guitar is venturing into lower and lower tunings, so is bass. The value of bass will never leave modern metal, even if it has to be programmed (all the songs on my band's upcoming EP apart from this one with a slap bassline have programmed bass).


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 27, 2021)

Agramal said:


> Gotta strongly disagree with you here. Sergio Vega is one of my bass idols - I absolutely loved his work in Quicksand - and he's almost completely inaudible in Deftones due to how low Steph and Chino tune. He's completely wasted in the band in my opinion.



He is also one of my bass hero's and I think he has added so much to the band. You have to admit the bass in Deftones is a lot different since Diamond Eyes. I really like it.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 27, 2021)

Agramal said:


> Gotta strongly disagree with you here. Sergio Vega is one of my bass idols - I absolutely loved his work in Quicksand - and he's almost completely inaudible in Deftones due to how low Steph and Chino tune. He's completely wasted in the band in my opinion.



I don't think it's how low they tune but how much low end from the guitar is stepping over the bass guitar territory, lower the guitars bass so it stays in guitar territory, and let the bass be a bass.

It sounds like it would be easy to do this with post EQ for the tracks, but it gets pretty tricky trying to blend any bass with a guitar that sounds that full and loud in the mix. I'll be honest, sometimes I prefer it that way, not all music needs a huge always audible bass tone. It might be better if the bass tone were cleaner and did some extra things to stand out, but people usually want to hear Steph playing because the riffs are one of the best parts about the Deftones sound.

Since Steph I think? is using 7's again, so let's go back in time a bit and listen to this mix, sounds way better IMO, the guitar is so much quieter:



Maybe Steph should go back to 6 strings, that sounds great.


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## nookie_13 (Apr 27, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> With the register of guitars getting ever lower where has the bass gone? Personally I would like to see guitarists being reigned back up to e standard or D/drop D. Let the bassists do their job and lets have some interesting dynamic songs again!



Why guitarist couldn't dig into low tunning ? For me it only make sense that they go for that when you ear most of the metal release this last decade. Bassist should go more on synth territory as you can ear synth basses all around from pop to more extreme metal bands. Guitarist shouldn't go back to D or std E tuning just to leave more space to bassist. The most important it's to create more appealing music than living in pre established standard... The future is to break all those standard anyway.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 27, 2021)

Agramal said:


> Gotta strongly disagree with you here. Sergio Vega is one of my bass idols - I absolutely loved his work in Quicksand - and he's almost completely inaudible in Deftones due to how low Steph and Chino tune. He's completely wasted in the band in my opinion.


Did you even listen to the last Deftones record? The bass is pretty much the loudest thing besides drums on most of the tracks. Almost to the point of being annoying when some of the more resonant notes are hit.



nookie_13 said:


> The most important it's to create more appealing music than living in pre established standard... The future is to break all those standard anyway.


This is the real answer to the question right here. Where has the bass gone? It doesn't matter as long as people are still creating. Having to fit a preconceived notion of tone or usage for any instrument is silly and counterproductive to making new things.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 27, 2021)

nookie_13 said:


> Why guitarist couldn't dig into low tunning ? For me it only make sense that they go for that when you ear most of the metal release this last decade. Bassist should go more on synth territory as you can ear synth basses all around from pop to more extreme metal bands. Guitarist shouldn't go back to D or std E tuning just to leave more space to bassist. The most important it's to create more appealing music than living in pre established standard... The future is to break all those standard anyway.



I'd love to hear another Deftones album in Drop C, it seemed like a magic combo. 

The idea of having the same tuning on an entire album for all instruments is something that needs to go. It's done that way because it's easy, why not split the album in half and have both, Drop C, and F standard. Twice the work, but it would be cool, even in some of the lowest tunings I would still probably prefer to put down the 8 string and do the solo on a 6 string anyway.


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## j3ps3 (Apr 27, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> I'd love to hear another Deftones album in Drop C, it seemed like a magic combo.
> 
> The idea of having the same tuning on an entire album for all instruments is something that needs to go. It's done that way because it's easy, why not split the album in half and have both, Drop C, and F standard. Twice the work, but it would be cool, even in some of the lowest tunings I would still probably prefer to put down the 8 string and do the solo on a 6 string anyway.



You work with what inspires you. That's why I completely understand having an album with mostly the same tuning. Doesn't really bother me. Good song is a good song regardless of the tuning. Tuning changes ain't gonna save you if the songs don't hold up and I doubt an average listener is going "man, I need some more tunings in this record for it to kick some ass. Now it's just not cutting it."


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## Floppystrings (Apr 27, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> You work with what inspires you. That's why I completely understand having an album with mostly the same tuning. Doesn't really bother me. Good song is a good song regardless of the tuning. Tuning changes ain't gonna save you if the songs don't hold up and I doubt an average listener is going "man, I need some more tunings in this record for it to kick some ass. Now it's just not cutting it."



Well considering how many tunings Steph has used, only new tunings inspire him apparently. I just read that Steph already has used more than one tuning on an album, he is the king of never using the same tuning.

And that is a very real thing, it inspires me too. I kind of wish I had a wall of custom shop ESP Horizons in every tuning, same with basses too.


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## Agramal (Apr 27, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Directions for first time listening, turn that volume way up:




I love the production on this album, and Dave Curran's bass just sounds massive throughout. Such an unsung awesome tone.


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## TomParenteau (Apr 27, 2021)

I figure playing a 7 string means I'm being the guitar player. 8-10 string guitars are for people who want to play guitar and a bass line simultaneously.


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## VGK17 (Apr 27, 2021)

The bass is still here. Some bands it definitely pops out more, even when the bass is doubling the guitars. Havok is one like that.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 27, 2021)

I just really love how many rules people like to put on music. 
Does it sound good to you?
If yes, this music is for you, enjoy it.
If no, move along and STFU. (obviously I'm kidding, what else would a music forum be if not a bunch of CHUDs talking shit)


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 27, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I just really love how many rules people like to put on music.
> Does it sound good to you?
> If yes, this music is for you, enjoy it.
> If no, move along and STFU. (obviously I'm kidding, what else would a music forum be if not a bunch of CHUDs talking shit)


1000 IQ quote right there

Still though, no matter what guitar you're using, whether it has 6 strings or 9 strings, there will always be the need for a bass.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 27, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> If no, move along and STFU. (obviously I'm kidding, what else would a music forum be if not a bunch of CHUDs talking shit)


Lol.


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## SCJR (Apr 27, 2021)

Not technically in relation to the original discussion but I think when bands do it right E Standard/Drop D is as heavy -- and I would argue heavier - when done effectively.

Every Time I Die is the first example that comes to mind. Not all of the time but often they're in Drop D and those boys throw down something proper.


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## gnoll (Apr 28, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I just really love how many rules people like to put on music.
> Does it sound good to you?
> If yes, this music is for you, enjoy it.
> If no, move along and STFU. (obviously I'm kidding, what else would a music forum be if not a bunch of CHUDs talking shit)



I think talking about what we like and dislike in music is good and that it can help to make music better. But often on this forum when somebody voices something they think could be better about music, they're labeled as some kind of rule-enforcing elitist. That's a bit weird to me.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 28, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I just really love how many rules people like to put on music.
> Does it sound good to you?
> If yes, this music is for you, enjoy it.
> If no, move along and STFU. (obviously I'm kidding, what else would a music forum be if not a bunch of CHUDs talking shit)


_Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers_?

I think these types of discussions are exactly what forums are for and lets be honest forums in general are rare these days because of the social media cesspit but that's another topic!

This thread has opened my eyes to new bands and reminded me of bands I had forgotten about, it has been very inspiring!

Someone mentioned not following rules and breaking trends. The Zeitgeist in modern metal is ERG and guitars tuned really low, I think its been heading in that direction since the late 90's and Korn (I think Steve Vai has even said he started using the 7 string again because he liked what Korn where doing with it).

This move to lower guitar registers and thus the introduction of more strings on guitars has really shaped modern metal. As per my original thread this change has altered the roll of the bass guitar in a way that IMO is negatively affecting the song. I do not know of any contemporary bass heroes, maybe Nolly (this is the only name that springs to mind. I would love to be introduced to more!).

I also think shift to lower registered has stifled the diversity of the songs being written, surely there is a limit to how many Meshuggah inspired songs can be created but this is another thread for another day.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Someone mentioned not following rules and breaking trends. The Zeitgeist in modern metal is ERG and guitars tuned really low, I think its been heading in that direction since the late 90's and Korn (I think Steve Vai has even said he started using the 7 string again because he liked what Korn where doing with it).


 Pretty sure the guys in Korn wouldn't have even had 7-string guitars if Vai wasn't already using them at the time.



guns_of_minerva said:


> This move to lower guitar registers and thus the introduction of more strings on guitars has really shaped modern metal. As per my original thread this change has altered the roll of the bass guitar in a way that IMO is negatively affecting the song. I do not know of any contemporary bass heroes, maybe Nolly (this is the only name that springs to mind. I would love to be introduced to more!).
> 
> I also think shift to lower registered has stifled the diversity of the songs being written, surely there is a limit to how many Meshuggah inspired songs can be created but this is another thread for another day.


 I still don't understand how the tuning makes the songwriting bad. Pick an era of metal, look at what's popular, and then look at the 10,000 copycat bands at the time. The only difference now is that the bar for entry as far making a decent-sounding recording and releasing music is much lower (a good thing IMO) so you have the possibility of hearing the 10k copycats somewhere besides a basement or a local venue. The tools don't dictate the songwriting.


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## VGK17 (Apr 28, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Pretty sure the guys in Korn wouldn't have even had 7-string guitars if Vai wasn't already using them at the time.


Vai created the 7 string the guys in Korn used but they made 7 strings popular, even Vai said so.

https://metalinjection.net/news/steve-vai-credits-korn-with-popularizing-the-seven-string-guitar


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

VGK17 said:


> Vai created the 7 string the guys in Korn used but they made 7 strings popular, even Vai said so.
> 
> https://metalinjection.net/news/steve-vai-credits-korn-with-popularizing-the-seven-string-guitar



Korn helped make them popular in the context of popular, mainstream heavy music. 

Vai was never as commercially successful on 7s. He was successful in his niche, but Korn was getting non-stop MTV play. 

In the world of Ibanez guitars, it was definitely Korn that pushed for the revitalization of thier 7-string offerings, which had waned since the mid 90's. Heck, Steve wasn't even using them all too much passed 93'. 

I don't think Vai ever really popped out as anything more than a side man to DLR and Coverdale for a short time (after his even more niche Zappa days), at least to the casual music listener who doesn't give a shit how many strings there are. 

As far as popularity amongst guitar players, if you were into virtuous guitar in the 90's, Vai was at least in your top five. 

You also have to understand that Steve is one of the nicest, most humble dudes ever. I'm sure he'd credit anyone for anything if he felt like they'd be stoked.


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## JJC (Apr 28, 2021)

Maybe people have decided to look for particular settings and have stopped using their ears to actually listen to how things sound as a whole?


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 28, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Korn helped make them popular in the context of popular, mainstream heavy music.
> 
> Vai was never as commercially successful on 7s. He was successful in his niche, but Korn was getting non-stop MTV play.
> 
> ...



Korn made him pull over!


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 28, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> The tools don't dictate the songwriting



The tools definitely dictate the song writing and they greatly impact the performance as well.

The tuning of your guitar changes the chord choices you make and it also alters the voicing of those chords. Those changes impact your chord progressions and ultimately your composition.

Read about how grunge started.



> In 1984, the punk rock band Black Flag toured small towns across the US to bring punk to the more remote parts of the country. By this time, their music had become slow and sludgy, less like the Sex Pistols and more like Black Sabbath. Krist Novoselic, later the bass player with Nirvana, recalled going with the Melvins to see one of these shows, after which Melvins frontman Buzz Osborne began writing "slow and heavy riffs" to form a dirge-like music that was the beginning of northwest grunge.[29] The Melvins were the most influential of the early grunge bands.[1] Sub Pop producer Jack Endino described grunge as "seventies-influenced, slowed-down punk music".[30][31]


 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge

N.B

Def read citation 30 and 31 they are very interesting.


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 28, 2021)

JJC said:


> Maybe people have decided to look for particular settings and have stopped using their ears to actually listen to how things sound as a whole?



That’s definitely something that’s becoming more and more popular these days with VST’s, modelers, profiles, captures, etc. 3rd party producers making preset/IR packs. We already heard what it did with drums over the last 15 years and everyone using Drumkit From Hell. Drums went from being one of the most varied sounds in rock/metal, to the least varied. 

And hell, when you’re done loading up your GGD drums, GGD IR’s, NDSP presets, Toontrack bass player, you can slap on EZMix and pick the flavor of the week preset! 

It’s actually a topic that gets brought up frequently in discussing amp modelers; while some people prefer to take a DIY approach with something like a Fractal unit that has every option available for tweaking, there’s a whole slew of players who just want to plug in and get a good tone right away, which it seems NDSP is doing a good job with with their plugins and achieving exactly that. 

While a musicians hands and guitar/bass are going to alter the sound quite a bit, I think it would be wise for these plug and play types to spend some time developing their own thing. This forum already gets plenty of snickers and sneers for all the “Djent mixtest #344” clips/vids that have popped up, where they’re all trying to sound like whatever band is big that month on here. Everyone wants the djentiest tone, the clickiest kick drum, the biggest snare.....and there are plug-ins that’ll deliver it all!


As for the live vs backing tracks thing, I just hate it when there’s someone onstage miming shit. I saw Fit For A King last year and both the guitars and bass were on tracks. I saw the dude miming a pinch harmonic and then when I paid attention more, I could hear how the live guitar was mixed fairly low in comparison to the backing track. When I got home I started watching live vids and realized the bass is also on a backing track, allowing for the dude to spin around in circles like a ballerina onstage. That shit is lame as fuck. I’m fine with synths, a few samples, choirs, shit that just isn’t feasible to do live, but having it fill in whole guitar and bass tracks is the lamest shit I’ve ever seen.

It’s also lame having backing vocals on tape and having someone mime it onstage.....I’m a huge Sevendust fan and I hate that Morgan’s vocals are all on tape. I understand the dude’s got a tough job and it can’t be easy, but I’d rather hear him phone it in than fake it. Petrucci has also been doing this in the last couple DT tours and it’s just lame. Don’t bother. Sure, there’s a bunch of people out there that can’t tell, but to the ones who can, you look fucking stupid.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 28, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> _Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers_?


It actually stands for "Contamination Hazard Urban Disposal."


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> The tools definitely dictate the song writing and they greatly impact the performance as well.
> 
> The tuning of your guitar changes the chord choices you make and it also alters the voicing of those chords. Those changes impact your chord progressions and ultimately your composition.


 I should have chosen different wording. The tuning/tools don't dictate if the person using them is going to be creative with them or not. The tuning doesn't matter, just the mind of the person operating the instrument.


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## Screwhead (Apr 28, 2021)

Why not both? Conan, for example, play in Drop F, and the bassist is also in Drop F.


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## sakeido (Apr 28, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> That’s definitely something that’s becoming more and more popular these days with VST’s, modelers, profiles, captures, etc. 3rd party producers making preset/IR packs. We already heard what it did with drums over the last 15 years and everyone using Drumkit From Hell. Drums went from being one of the most varied sounds in rock/metal, to the least varied.


people only want the same sound. A big band puts out something where they actually used the studio as an instrument - which it totally is - and they have a little bit of grit and a non-standard sound in the production, people don't like it. It needs to be super clean and hi-fi and sound like all their other albums OR ELSE



> As for the live vs backing tracks thing, I just hate it when there’s someone onstage miming shit. I saw Fit For A King last year and both the guitars and bass were on tracks. I saw the dude miming a pinch harmonic and then when I paid attention more, I could hear how the live guitar was mixed fairly low in comparison to the backing track. When I got home I started watching live vids and realized the bass is also on a backing track, allowing for the dude to spin around in circles like a ballerina onstage. That shit is lame as fuck. I’m fine with synths, a few samples, choirs, shit that just isn’t feasible to do live, but having it fill in whole guitar and bass tracks is the lamest shit I’ve ever seen.
> 
> It’s also lame having backing vocals on tape and having someone mime it onstage.....I’m a huge Sevendust fan and I hate that Morgan’s vocals are all on tape. I understand the dude’s got a tough job and it can’t be easy, but I’d rather hear him phone it in than fake it. Petrucci has also been doing this in the last couple DT tours and it’s just lame. Don’t bother. Sure, there’s a bunch of people out there that can’t tell, but to the ones who can, you look fucking stupid.


tbh if you are trying to build out a touring band you need to put some emphasis on the show. Look at all these djent bands. Zero stage presence, not a whole lot of fun to watch, and they all hit pretty low ceilings. The shows are honestly pretty boring 95% of the time. The musicianship and consistency is impressive sure but the general audience forking out money for the shows want more. If you need to put backing tracks on so you can move around more and add some dynamicism... you're only going to bug the tiny portion of your audience who are musicians and can notice the funny business, while the rest of the crowd likes it all the more.

It makes the guys who can do both, play well and put on a show, all the more impressive but we can't all be Adam D. But you see why a lot of bands go an alternate route and pretty much have an extra guy in the touring band who plays lights - then you can have everybody playing up on stage for real, minimal backing tracks, and use the stage production to hide their relative inactivity. This might even be the best approach because arguably the two absolute best metal acts live these days, Gojira and Meshuggah, that's what they do.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 28, 2021)

sakeido said:


> tbh if you are trying to build out a touring band you need to put some emphasis on the show. Look at all these djent bands. Zero stage presence, not a whole lot of fun to watch, and they all hit pretty low ceilings. The shows are honestly pretty boring 95% of the time. The musicianship and consistency is impressive sure but the general audience forking out money for the shows want more. If you need to put backing tracks on so you can move around more and add some dynamicism... you're only going to bug the tiny portion of your audience who are musicians and can notice the funny business, while the rest of the crowd likes it all the more.


 Like I said before, musicians playing for musicians is almost always a bad time in concert. Give the unwashed masses what they want.



sakeido said:


> It makes the guys who can do both, play well and put on a show, all the more impressive but we can't all be Adam D. But you see why a lot of bands go an alternate route and pretty much have an extra guy in the touring who plays lights - then you can have everybody playing up on stage for real, minimal backing tracks, and use the production to hide their relative inactivity. This might even be the best approach because I'd argue the two absolute best metal acts live these days, Gojira and Meshuggah, that's basically what they do.


 If you can't blind them with brilliance baffle them with bullshit, as my bass player likes to say. IMO no-one should aspire to Adam D's stage show, but I realize I'm in the minority that thinks making an ass of yourself, by yourself is lame AF in that context, plus he's not funny.


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## ErockRPh (Apr 28, 2021)

I can't believe I scrolled through all of this without seeing one reference to Type O Negative. They were tuning to B before extended range guitars were a thing, and Peter Steele's bass was the cornerstone of much of their sound.


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## JJC (Apr 28, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> That’s definitely something that’s becoming more and more popular these days with VST’s, modelers, profiles, captures, etc. 3rd party producers making preset/IR packs. We already heard what it did with drums over the last 15 years and everyone using Drumkit From Hell. Drums went from being one of the most varied sounds in rock/metal, to the least varied.
> 
> And hell, when you’re done loading up your GGD drums, GGD IR’s, NDSP presets, Toontrack bass player, you can slap on EZMix and pick the flavor of the week preset!
> 
> ...


That’s horrible! I can’t believe people are actually doing that! 
I went from digital to analog and I am not going back.


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## j3ps3 (Apr 29, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> The tuning of your guitar changes the chord choices you make and it also alters the voicing of those chords. Those changes impact your chord progressions and ultimately your composition.


This is just wrong and the way how beginners seem to look at the guitar, IMO. It changes the pitch but the voicings and progressions are still very much the same regardless the tuning. Tuning your instrument low doesn't mean you have to chug only that lowest open string.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 29, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> This is just wrong and the way how beginners seem to look at the guitar, IMO. It changes the pitch but the voicings and progressions are still very much the same regardless the tuning. Tuning your instrument low doesn't mean you have to chug only that lowest open string.



No, the choice you make when tuning your guitar effects choices like the Key the song is going to be in, notes will be in different places depending on the tuning, meaning you use different voicings. This means chords will have different timbres meaning you will make different choices when trying writing your progression.

That choice has knock on effect to other instrumentation. How you tune the drums, what does the bass play, does the shimmer delay sound right. Does the range of pitches chosen work with the singer? A lot of bands use drop D,C#,C because it allows the singer to achieve their performance in a range they can work in.

Hell even string gauge effects the sound and performance!

Take the Deftones song Genesis (I think the song is in C minor), I believe Chinos guitar is tuned to drop C. Yes you can play it in Drop D or even E standard but the timbre is wrong and the power chords you need to play are in the wrong higher octave.

Why do you think cultures which use different tuning systems have significantly different chord progressions and scales. This is a really interesting subject as Aphex Twin and a bunch of great software devs have created a system to free musicians for the shackles of predefined tuning.

https://cdm.link/2021/03/inside-mts-esp-the-new-tuning-tool-from-oddsound-and-aphex-twin/

https://cdm.link/2021/03/escaping-t...ult-setting-a-conversation-with-khyam-allami/

And if that doesn't hammer it home, watch this.



The demo for Black was called "Ballad in E" Would this song have worked and had the same impact if the guitars where tuned to A?


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 29, 2021)

Apologies it has taken 8 pages to post this:



N.B

Because its so good!


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 29, 2021)

ErockRPh said:


>




Alright Peter, we know we want to bring bass back, no need to bring the double bass!


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## j3ps3 (Apr 29, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> No, the choice you make when tuning your guitar effects choices like the Key the song is going to be in, notes will be in different places depending on the tuning, meaning you use different voicings. This means chords will have different timbres meaning you will make different choices when trying writing your progression.



It only does if you play it the same way as you would with some different tuning. You can still transpose and get exactly same voicings on the guitar. Timbre is a whole different subject.



guns_of_minerva said:


> That choice has knock on effect to other instrumentation. How you tune the drums, what does the bass play, does the shimmer delay sound right. Does the range of pitches chosen work with the singer? A lot of bands use drop D,C#,C because it allows the singer to achieve their performance in a range they can work in.
> 
> Hell even string gauge effects the sound and performance!
> 
> ...




Nothing you talked about here touched the original subject I commented on.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 29, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> Nothing you talked about here touched the original subject I commented on.



Imagine replying to someone that talks to you this way.

Argumentative Behavioral disorder, look it up. This is a discussion forum, not a argument forum.


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> This is just wrong and the way how beginners seem to look at the guitar, IMO. It changes the pitch but the voicings and progressions are still very much the same regardless the tuning. Tuning your instrument low doesn't mean you have to chug only that lowest open string.



I disagree to some extent.

When I tune my instrument lower (in my case Drop A) instead of chugging more, the fingering for extending chords becomes way easier, and I have access to chords I wouldn't phsyically be able to play otherwise. And I didn't start playing guitar yesterday, lol.

So yeah, you don't have to restrict to chugging when downtuning, but different tunings definetely affect your playing and writing. Even a different guitar in the same tuning will. There are infinite factors than can alter what you play.


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 29, 2021)

Yeah, I don't want to see this turn into an argument either. But I am curious, if y'all had to choose one, would you rather the instruments be mimed and everyone be able to mosh onstage, or would you rather have a bit less stage usage and all the instruments be legit?
I'd probably rather everything be legit because of the scrutiny and drama that bands can go through if they're caught miming. I'm playing my first live gig for my solo music in a few months and I am still deciding on a system, but what I think I'll do is play through my DAW into the house speakers. Since I have a modeler setup instead of a full amp setup (I'm a cheapskate 15 year old lol), I think my backing tracks will be the full original mixes except with the guitar solos taken out, so I don't get accused of miming and the rhythm mixes can still sound nice and full. Still not sure though.

Also, I believe that whatever tuning you use doesn't dictate the creativity of the musician, but depending on the person it can help with new ideas. For example, whenever I am given or give myself a new constraint or circumstance, like making a 7 string slap guitar riff for a trap djent song (will be released on my band's debut EP :-D), it always sparks new ideas that come out of nowhere and just flow to my fingers and then to guitar pro to be refined.


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> Yeah, I don't want to see this turn into an argument either. But I am curious, if y'all had to choose one, would you rather the instruments be mimed and everyone be able to mosh onstage, or would you rather have a bit less stage usage and all the instruments be legit?
> I'd probably rather everything be legit because of the scrutiny and drama that bands can go through if they're caught miming. I'm playing my first live gig for my solo music in a few months and I am still deciding on a system, but what I think I'll do is play through my DAW into the house speakers. Since I have a modeler setup instead of a full amp setup (I'm a cheapskate 15 year old lol), I think my backing tracks will be the full original mixes except with the guitar solos taken out, so I don't get accused of miming and the rhythm mixes can still sound nice and full. Still not sure though.
> 
> Also, I believe that whatever tuning you use doesn't dictate the creativity of the musician, but depending on the person it can help with new ideas. For example, whenever I am given or give myself a new constraint or circumstance, like making a 7 string slap guitar riff for a trap djent song (will be released on my band's debut EP :-D), it always sparks new ideas that come out of nowhere and just flow to my fingers and then to guitar pro to be refined.



Legit all the way. Some electronic samples in an otherwise instrumental arrangement is fine, but pre recorded backing vocals and guitar tracks are lame as fuck.


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## j3ps3 (Apr 29, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Imagine replying to someone that talks to you this way.
> 
> Argumentative Behavioral disorder, look it up. This is a discussion forum, not a argument forum.



Imagine talking with someone who has no meaning for words.

The reply I got was simply about a whole different subject. I don't really see the point on talking to me about apples when I talk about oranges. There's nothing bad on the fact that I stated that it didn't answer to anything I was talking about. I'm not native in English so that's why the text may come up harsh some times. We can always talk in Finnish, if you find that easier.




Emperoff said:


> I disagree to some extent.
> 
> When I tune my instrument lower (in my case Drop A) instead of chugging more, the fingering for extending chords becomes way easier, and I have access to chords I wouldn't phsyically be able to play otherwise. And I didn't start playing guitar yesterday, lol.
> 
> So yeah, you don't have to restrict to chugging when downtuning, but different tunings definetely affect your playing and writing. Even a different guitar in the same tuning will. There are infinite factors than can alter what you play.



Do you know how to build chords and accordingly name them? My point was that it's not like you're going to go "Well, looks I'm not going to play C#" if your instrument isn't tuned to drop C#. The 12 notes still very much are there and you can most definitely find and play them in pretty much any tuning you want. Timbre is a whole different subject. Imagine demanding a french horn player, for example, to tune to drop C# since you're guitar is in that tuning. You don't do that. You can have any tuning you want but you need to use the right chord names to have a mutual understanding. Mostly guitarist just go "I'm in B and this is the second fret on my D-string!"


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 29, 2021)

Anyway...


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2021)

I don't know, the premise of this thread and the drumming one seem to be that people really wanna put cap on what makes music/the use of an instrument "good" and 99.9999% of the time it has nothing to do with quality or any tangible aspect other "me no like this, me like this".


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## VGK17 (Apr 29, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> Yeah, I don't want to see this turn into an argument either. But I am curious, if y'all had to choose one, would you rather the instruments be mimed and everyone be able to mosh onstage, or would you rather have a bit less stage usage and all the instruments be legit?
> I'd probably rather everything be legit because of the scrutiny and drama that bands can go through if they're caught miming. I'm playing my first live gig for my solo music in a few months and I am still deciding on a system, but what I think I'll do is play through my DAW into the house speakers. Since I have a modeler setup instead of a full amp setup (I'm a cheapskate 15 year old lol), I think my backing tracks will be the full original mixes except with the guitar solos taken out, so I don't get accused of miming and the rhythm mixes can still sound nice and full. Still not sure though.
> 
> Also, I believe that whatever tuning you use doesn't dictate the creativity of the musician, but depending on the person it can help with new ideas. For example, whenever I am given or give myself a new constraint or circumstance, like making a 7 string slap guitar riff for a trap djent song (will be released on my band's debut EP :-D), it always sparks new ideas that come out of nowhere and just flow to my fingers and then to guitar pro to be refined.


If I want to hear recorded music I can stay at home and listen to recorded music. For me the whole point of seeing a band is to see and hear them play live.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> Yeah, I don't want to see this turn into an argument either. But I am curious, if y'all had to choose one, would you rather the instruments be mimed and everyone be able to mosh onstage, or would you rather have a bit less stage usage and all the instruments be legit?
> I'd probably rather everything be legit because of the scrutiny and drama that bands can go through if they're caught miming. I'm playing my first live gig for my solo music in a few months and I am still deciding on a system, but what I think I'll do is play through my DAW into the house speakers. Since I have a modeler setup instead of a full amp setup (I'm a cheapskate 15 year old lol), I think my backing tracks will be the full original mixes except with the guitar solos taken out, so I don't get accused of miming and the rhythm mixes can still sound nice and full. Still not sure though.


I've seen several artists doing solo shows in a similar manner and over-doing it on the backing tracks always takes away from the experience. I'd say get rid of the rhythm guitars everywhere you're not playing lead and get rid of any heavy master output or buss processing you might be using. Hard-limited drums sound lame AF live.


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## Emperoff (Apr 29, 2021)

VGK17 said:


> If I want to hear recorded music I can stay at home and listen to recorded music. For me the whole point of seeing a band is to see and hear them play live.



This.


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## Floppystrings (Apr 29, 2021)

The tone is so good on this:


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## Floppystrings (Apr 29, 2021)

Matt Freedman's sound once made me look for used original Fender 1977 P-bass pickups for about a month, that Operation Ivy stuff was a lot crazier than the stuff he played in Rancid:


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## Floppystrings (Apr 29, 2021)

One more, Bomer played bass and drums on this song, RIP:



Joe Raposo had to play that live, at speed, so he was automatically good, so I'll add some of his playing as well, also RIP to Jason Sears his vocals were great on this album:


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I've seen several artists doing solo shows in a similar manner and over-doing it on the backing tracks always takes away from the experience. I'd say get rid of the rhythm guitars everywhere you're not playing lead and get rid of any heavy master output or buss processing you might be using. Hard-limited drums sound lame AF live.


I am indeed playing all the solos live, that's why I am taking out the solos in the backing tracks.

I do have very limited mixing experience and plugins, so I'm not really sure what you mean by hard-limited drums, buss processing, and heavy master output. The problem I saw with taking out all guitar tracks is that the rhythm guitars wouldn't sound double tracked then. Plus I need about 2 seconds to switch between tones, and I feel like there should still be something there while I cumbersomely switch my tones XD
Can you please explain more?


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> I am indeed playing all the solos live, that's why I am taking out the solos in the backing tracks.


 What I'm saying is, if you're playing rhythm for most of the song, don't have both of the rhythm guitars on the back track (or any, IMO) and only have them come in when you switch to lead.



DjentyBoi7 said:


> I do have very limited mixing experience and plugins, so I'm not really sure what you mean by hard-limited drums, buss processing, and heavy master output.


 Modern metal likes to do extreme compression/clipping/limiting, especially on drums and live it takes all the guts out of it, IMO. If you're not doing any of that stuff don't worry about it.


DjentyBoi7 said:


> Plus I need about 2 seconds to switch between tones, and I feel like there should still be something there while I cumbersomely switch my tones XD


 Before you play out find a cheap USB-MIDI foot controller and figure out how to make it change channels. I'm assuming you're using the DAW to process guitars, so the less you have to look and touch your computer on stage the better. I'd also move all my songs into one project in the order you want to play them and add gaps/samples/ambient noise between songs so you're not going back to the computer every song to start the next one, also nobody wants to watch you load a project live, lol.


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> What I'm saying is, if you're playing rhythm for most of the song, don't have both of the rhythm guitars on the back track (or any, IMO) and only have them come in when you switch to lead.
> 
> Modern metal likes to do extreme compression/clipping/limiting, especially on drums and live it takes all the guts out of it, IMO. If you're not doing any of that stuff don't worry about it.
> Before you play out find a cheap USB-MIDI foot controller and figure out how to make it change channels. I'm assuming you're using the DAW to process guitars, so the less you have to look and touch your computer on stage the better. I'd also move all my songs into one project in the order you want to play them and add gaps/samples/ambient noise between songs so you're not going back to the computer every song to start the next one, also nobody wants to watch you load a project live, lol.


I also should mention I do use a Line 6 POD HD500 for my tones, if I used Neural DSP plugins I could automate my tone changes which would be an absolute lifesaver, but I didn't go that route (insert crying emoji). Thank you for the input though!


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## Floppystrings (Apr 29, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> Imagine talking with someone who has no meaning for words.



Hauska kuinka tämä on ongelma, koska Suomessa ei ole sanaa "Timbre".

Hän vastasi kysymykseesi: "Tämä tarkoittaa, että sointujen ääni on erilainen kuin "Timbre", mikä tarkoittaa, että teet erilaisia valintoja yrittäessäsi kirjoittaa edistymistäsi." "Timbre" on erilainen sana äänityypin kuvaukselle.

"Timbre" tarkoittaa puun ääntä, diskantin tai basson puuttumista puulajeista. Esimerkiksi kaikki mahonkikitarat kuulostavat pehmeiltä lyijyä soitettaessa, mutta kaikki vaahterakitarat kuulostavat kirkkailta. Tämä liittyy suoraan siihen, missä sointu soitetaan kaulassa. Hänen ongelmansa ei ole, ettei ole sanaa kääntää "Timbre" oikein suomeksi.

Katso video.

(Google translate obviously lol)


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2021)

I don't care about OT anymore because I've decided this whole conversation is stupid.


DjentyBoi7 said:


> I also should mention I do use a Line 6 POD HD500 for my tones, if I used Neural DSP plugins I could automate my tone changes which would be an absolute lifesaver, but I didn't go that route (insert crying emoji). Thank you for the input though!


Why do you need time to change patches if you're using a floorboard like that? The patch change speed is in the Milliseconds.


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## DjentyBoi7 (Apr 29, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> I don't care about OT anymore because I've decided this whole conversation is stupid.
> 
> Why do you need time to change patches if you're using a floorboard like that? The patch change speed is in the Milliseconds.


It could be that I'm practicing my tone switches sitting instead of standing like I would live. Also I am trying to fit in a pickup switch to make it sound the best.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2021)

DjentyBoi7 said:


> It could be that I'm practicing my tone switches sitting instead of standing like I would live. Also I am trying to fit in a pickup switch to make it sound the best.


 It'll come, practicing standing up is important, if not for your switching just to make sure you're able to play everything you want to in that position. I'll still get up at home when I'm working on stuff just to make sure I can actually play it without crawling on top of the guitar. I highly, HIGHLY recommend rehearsing your performance like people are watching as much as you can. Stand up, move around, make faces at yourself in the mirror while you do it. People will respond much better to you enjoying yourself and conveying some emotion more than they will care that you nailed every single note properly. Have fun with it!


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## j3ps3 (Apr 29, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Hauska kuinka tämä on ongelma, koska Suomessa ei ole sanaa "Timbre".
> 
> Hän vastasi kysymykseesi: "Tämä tarkoittaa, että sointujen ääni on erilainen kuin "Timbre", mikä tarkoittaa, että teet erilaisia valintoja yrittäessäsi kirjoittaa edistymistäsi." "Timbre" on erilainen sana äänityypin kuvaukselle.
> 
> ...




Hienoa, että joku, joka ei puhu suomea, yrittää mulle sitä opettaa.

You can combine words over here in Finland. So timbre can easily be translated as "äänenväri" or "äänensävy".

I had no question. I fixed the terminology that was wrong. Timbre has nothing to do whether you can play certain notes and chords on a guitar. That's why I said that we're talking about completely different things now. Nothing bad about that but I don't feel like I should address stuff that I was not talking about, you know? I was not trying to be rude.

I already spoke about this in another thread but the presumption that maple is always bright or that mahogany is always dark sounding is also wrong. But again, we're now talking about something that I never commented on here and it does not relate to my original point in any way. Sure, the timbre changes, I never said it won't. My point was that if you downtune you can still find the same voicings and chords up the fretboard. Sure, we play around what's comfortable for us as a guitar player (so I'd imagine that'd be key of E and A mostly with metal players when tuned to E standard) but that doesn't mean that those are the only keys we can play in. Again, the terminology was wrong which I tried to fix, with no bad intentions, might I add.

Eli väännetäänpä vielä rautalangasta:

"The tuning of your guitar changes the chord choices you make and it also alters the voicing of those chords. Those changes impact your chord progressions and ultimately your composition."

Say you play Bmb5-E7-Amaj7 chords. Then you change the tuning and play the same thing. The choice of intervals used in the chords are still the same and the progression is still the same. And even the voicings are still the same. The key changed with the tuning but everything else is still the same. However, if you'd be playing with a band you can't just go "I'm gonna tune lower and still play the same frets". You'd have to play the right chords to go with the rest of the players and that's when you transpose up and that's when you still play the same voicings and progressions according to the song you're playing. Tuning has never changed the way I go about chord progressions or building chords. Even when learning a song from someone else I can find the right chords and voicings with a guitar that is in different tuning.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicing_(music)

The name of the notes making up the chords in the progression Bmb5-E7-Amaj7 played on a guitar tune to drop A may be the same as that of a guitar playing the same progression but tuned to open G. However the chord voicing will be different and that is because the notes played to make the chords will be different pitches so Bmb5 played on Drop A will sound different to it being played in Open G, the harmonic content will not be the same. This is why tuning matters, you might be able to play Pearl Jam's Black in Drop A but it will sound very different.

As the wiki articles explains the voicing of your chords impacts the choices available to you in your compositions.

You can argue about this as much as you want but these are the facts.

There is even a section on drop voicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicing_(music)#Drop_voicings

And for extra credits here is an example, the same chord 2 variations .

https://www.all-guitar-chords.com/chords/index/b/-5

They sound very different because of the different voices used to construct the chord. The variation you choice to use will alter your song, for example variation 1 has way more low frequency content. So you might want to use V2 and let the bass fill that space and do something interesting.

10 versions of E7 in standard tuning and they all sound different. https://www.all-guitar-chords.com/chords/index/e/7

My point is that you may want to use the progression in drop A but in fact it works better for the song if the guitar is tuned higher as you have more harmonic options to choose from. You might decide to that you want the guitar to stay in drop A but instead of the guitar playing an E7, it plays an E but the bass or synth can add the 7th to accomplish the overall E7 effect.

Can we get this topic back on track now?


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## j3ps3 (Apr 30, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> The name of the notes making up the chords in the progression Bmb5-E7-Amaj7 played on a guitar tune to drop A may be the same as that of a guitar playing the same progression but tuned to open G. However the chord voicing will be different and that is because the notes played to make the chords will be different pitches



This is just not true. The timbre is different. Notes (=pitch) are not. Voicing can be different if you want it to.



guns_of_minerva said:


> so Bmb5 played on Drop A will sound different to it being played in Open G, the harmonic content will not be the same. This is why tuning matters, you might be able to play Pearl Jam's Black in Drop A but it will sound very different.



You're talking about timbre, again. I could argue you that scale length impacts the harmonic content as much as the tuning. So if I compensate with different scale lengths can I then say that tuning doesn't matter? I sure can play it in drop A, but it doesn't mean the key is A. I'm still gonna play the same voicings and notes and chords that are in the song. Again, the timbre can be different if I choose (and need) to play the chords on a different spot on the fretboard. Voicings and progressions are still the same. The feeling of the instrument changes with the tuning, though. I suppose that's what you're talking about.

And I'm not sure you understand what voicing means.

Look, in standard tuning we could play voicings like this:

Bmb5 75xx6x (1-b3-b5)
E7 x767x7 (1-3-b7-5)
Amaj7 xx7989 (1-5-7-3)

That chord progression is ii-V-I

If I'm looking to repeat that same thing in Drop A, it does not mean I'm gonna play those same shapes over the same frets. If a song requires me to play exactly those chords that's what I'm gonna play. I'm not gonna say "hey guys, I'm tuned to whatever so could you just transpose on the fly just because I'm the one in different tuning?"

I'm not gonna play different pitches. I'm gonna play the exact notes (pitches) that are required by the song and the tuning in this situation does not matter. If a certain voicing is required I can still repeat that, regardless of the tuning. So thank you for incorrecting me.

Edit: That example you gave has the same voicings.. Same notes.. Just different fingering. On paper - there is no variation on your example. Except for the timbre, which I never talked about.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

I'm referring to being tuned so low you can't play certain notes or that they just don't sound right from that position.
https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tuning#Tuning_systems


> Violin scordatura was employed in the 17th and 18th centuries by Italian and German composers, namely, Biagio Marini, Antonio Vivaldi, Heinrich Ignaz Franz Biber (who in the _Rosary Sonatas_ prescribes a great variety of scordaturas, including crossing the middle strings), Johann Pachelbel and Johann Sebastian Bach, whose _Fifth Suite For Unaccompanied Cello_ calls for the lowering of the A string to G. In Mozart's _Sinfonia Concertante_ in E-flat major (K. 364), all the strings of the solo viola are raised one half-step, ostensibly to give the instrument a brighter tone so the solo violin does not overshadow it.


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## j3ps3 (Apr 30, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> I'm referring to being tuned so low you can't play certain notes or that they just don't sound right from that position.
> https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tuning#Tuning_systems



When exactly does a low tuning block you from playing certain notes? If you have 12 frets on your 1 string guitar, there you go. All the notes are there. Doesn't matter what the tuning is. You, again, are talking about timbre, which has nothing to do with voicings and progressions. When making a song I still go "hmm, it needs a minor chord here" and find the notes after I hear in my head what I'm after. Different tunings do not change the process or the voicings at all as at this point I pretty much now what I like and dislike and found the same voicings that I enjoy on different tunings. It affects the feel of the instrument, though, which is refreshing and can give you new ideas.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

You are fundamentally wrong, in this chart there are 8 E's, On your 1 string guitar you can only use 1. https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

Lets just agree to disagree and hopefully others have found the links this useful for song writing.

Back to bass...



R.I.P Raven

No that's not Nirvana


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## j3ps3 (Apr 30, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> You are fundamentally wrong, in this chart there are 8 E's, On your 1 string guitar you can only use 1.
> 
> Lets just agree to disagree and hopefully others have found the links this useful for song writing.
> 
> ...




So how that affects how the chords are build and voiced and the progressions then? Are they different because there are 8 E's instead of one? No.

Edit: Those same chords and voicings can still be found if you'd tune to drop A. Would it be comfortable? Probably not, but you can still find those same notes in that tuning, which was my point. The timbre will be different, though, that on I agree, but it was never what I was originally talking about.


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> The tone is so good on this:




What is your signal chain? This sounds really good!


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

Its a shame when you have to make use of the ignore button


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## Floppystrings (Apr 30, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> What is your signal chain? This sounds really good!



Not me playing there but from the comments it looks like:

Spector Euro 4LX (switched the Tone Pump with an EMG BQC preamp)>Darkglass B7k>Markbass head (I believe someone ID'd it as a lower wattage model)>cab??? 

He says: "It's mostly the sound of the bass (EMG P/J and BQC preamp), it has a natural and aggressive growl to it. Using both pickups (50/50) and with everything flat on the bass, using only light distortion from the B7K, about 70/30 natural/drive blend with a slight cut to the lower mids. It's a beast..."


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## isispelican (Apr 30, 2021)

Bass is huge and prominent on the whole album!


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

isispelican said:


> Bass is huge and prominent on the whole album!




This is a really great example, bass has a really nice tone and tight low end! And the song is also a banger!


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## guns_of_minerva (Apr 30, 2021)

This song has a lot of great examples of the bass holding down the riff's and driving the song and letting the guitars go of and do something different and coo. Ceckout 2:57.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Apr 30, 2021)

IMHO, within recent Death Metal offerings, Obscura's Jeroen Thesseling, and Linus Klausenitzer transformed bass playing by incorporating fretless bass in this kind of music in a way that I never heard before. I discovered Obscura from a YT bass cover of their Death (the band) tribute song "Incarnated", see below. 
Another band along same line is Beyond Creation, their first bass player, Dominic Lapointe was a monster fretless player as well, new guy not too shabby either.


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## Screamingdaisy (May 1, 2021)

The secret to a heavy guitar tone is a heavy bass tone.

You might think the bass is buried, yet everyone is raving about how thick the guitars sound...


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## akinari (May 1, 2021)

Perfect example of a fizzy guitar and a monstrous bass coming together and making something really beautiful and crushing. Check out 1:41 for reference. HM2s on both, btw


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## DjentyBoi7 (May 1, 2021)

Screamingdaisy said:


> The secret to a heavy guitar tone is a heavy bass tone.
> 
> You might think the bass is buried, yet everyone is raving about how thick the guitars sound...


 This insanity is the perfect exhample (pun intended)


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## guns_of_minerva (May 13, 2021)

Credit to *KnightBrolaire* for showing me this!



Great bass guitar lines throughout!


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## StevenC (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Its a shame when you have to make use of the ignore button


He's right though. You posted a link to two chords one starting on the 7th fret of the E string and the other starting on the second fret of the A string. And they had the same 4 pitches. That's not a voicing change, that's a timbre change. 

That's the difference between playing middle C on piano or playing middle C on cello.

Go back to your wiki link about voicings, listen to the first audio samples and read the music. The same notes are in the chords, but in different orders. That's what a voicing is.

It doesn't matter what octave you start in, if you play G-B-D you're playing G major. If you're playing B-D-G, you're still playing G major but a different voicing. If you play the same pitches on the same order on different strings, however, then you're using a different timbre.

That's just what those words mean.


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## guns_of_minerva (May 13, 2021)

> He's right though. You posted a link to two chords one starting on the 7th fret of the E string and the other starting on the second fret of the A string. And they had the same 4 pitches. That's not a voicing change, that's a timbre change.


You are wrong

A voicing is a particular expression of a given chord, based on the order in which the tones are stacked. For example, playing E major in the open position is one voicing. Playing E major using an A form barre chord at the 7th fret is another voicing of that same chord. Both offer different expressions of the same chord.



The Instrument has a Timbre, the chord has a voicing.


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## j3ps3 (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> You are wrong
> 
> A voicing is a particular expression of a given chord, based on the order in which the tones are stacked. For example, playing E major in the open position is one voicing. Playing E major using an A form barre chord at the 7th fret is another voicing of that same chord. Both offer different expressions of the same chord.
> 
> ...




E major voicing in the open position: 1-5-1-3-5-1
E major voicing starting from the 7th fret of the A string: 1-5-1-3-5

Nothing about the voicing changed. The octave changed, but the voicing of the chord is still very much the same. God, you're thick headed.


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## StevenC (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> You are wrong
> 
> A voicing is a particular expression of a given chord, based on the order in which the tones are stacked. For example, playing E major in the open position is one voicing. Playing E major using an A form barre chord at the 7th fret is another voicing of that same chord. Both offer different expressions of the same chord.
> 
> ...



Yes, choosing different pitches makes a chord different, but if they're the same notes then the voicing is the same at a higher pitch. Voicing is the names of the notes, the order they're played and how far apart the notes are relative to each other.

And playing an E power chord in the open position of a guitar tuned to E is the same voicing as playing an E power chord on a guitar tuned to D. Which is the point at hand.


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## guns_of_minerva (May 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> And playing an E power chord in the open position of a guitar tuned to E is the same voicing as playing an E power chord on a guitar tuned to D. Which is the point at hand.



The point at hand and my original point is that the tuning effects the choices of the composer, when you tune to D you can't play that E power chord at the open position which you might want to extend.


also has great bass lines.

This is in open C, yes could could play it in C but it would be really hard and it would not sound the same if played in E standard


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## StevenC (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> The point at hand and my original point is that the tuning effects the choices of the composer, when you tune to D you can't play that E power chord at the open position.
> 
> 
> also has great bass lines.
> ...



It doesn't change the choices the composer makes; it changes the pitch of the decisions the composer makes. You can tune to whatever you want and play in whatever key you want and whatever chords you want.

People don't tune down so they can play in lower keys, they do it because it sounds heavier*. 

That song also wouldn't sound the same if you played it on a piano or Champan Stick, but if you play all the same notes in the same order spaced the same way, the octave still doesn't matter for voicing. 

*obviously this is a generalisation, but it's where tuning down for metal and heavy rock mainly comes from


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## Acme (May 13, 2021)

We’re facing a new problem due to bassists starting to realize that they get more pleasure out of j****** off in front of their laptops than from playing that damned instrument. Studies predict one million bassists to quit playing bass this year and next years numbers will be even more extreme.


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## j3ps3 (May 13, 2021)

Oops. Standard 8-string tuning down a half-step. I suppose these chord voicings are wrong, though, since I'm not in the same tuning.


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## guns_of_minerva (May 13, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> Oops. Standard 8-string tuning down a half-step. I suppose these chord voicings are wrong, though, since I'm not in the same tuning.



Nice playing but yeah they are wrong as they are not playing power chords.

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/soundgarden/pretty-noose-tabs-484813
You can also see this in Chris Cornells playing in the video

The open chords really add to the song instead of just being power chords

Also if you feel so passionately about this start a new thread don't de-rail this one!


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## j3ps3 (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Nice playing but yeah they are wrong as they are not playing power chords.
> 
> https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/soundgarden/pretty-noose-tabs-484813
> You can also see this in Chris Cornells playing in the video
> ...



I wasn't playing power chords. Shows how much you know.


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## guns_of_minerva (May 13, 2021)

j3ps3 said:


> I wasn't playing power chords. Shows how much you know.


Well you win at the internet, your prize can be to clean your room!

Some music whilst you do it


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## Emperoff (May 13, 2021)

Being my main gig a cover band doing +4h long shows with the key of _*every*_ song adapted to suit the singer's vocal ranges, I find the discussion on the last two pages quite hilarious.

Tuning is probably the least important part of a song. If you attended a live song of your favourite band and they were tuned a half step down, you would probably never know.

This phenomenon only seems to happen in metal. People give so much importante to tuning that's just ridiculous. Then when age strikes and bands are forced to tune down to sing older stuff live, people are shocked and say they can't sing anymore, lol. Most musicians in other styles can easily adapt to other keys on the fly, but since metal is chugga-based you pretty much need another guitar if you want keep hammering that open low string.


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## Andromalia (May 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Metallica have all the money in the world to make a grand piano appear on stage every night and get Lars lessons to learn to play it


Please don't give them funny ideas.

Edit: I double posted and can't merge. T_T


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## Andromalia (May 13, 2021)

If you're asking where is the bass, it just means you're listening to musci without bass. There are other bands, in metal included, with bass either prominent or at least very audible. Bass has been "missing" from some metal albums since the 80es, I can give you a shovel and tell you to find the bass in _Beneath The Remains_, you'll still be digging next year. Meanwhile, bass is very noticeable in mainstream modern less-decrepit-than-Ozzy metal acts such as Amon Amarth or Behemoth.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (May 13, 2021)

I listen to a lot less extreme metal these days so I suppose I can't really comment on the current state of things. I listen to a lot of synth heavy stuff (industrial, synthwave, etc) and the bass is there. I've definitely been listening to a lot more 80s and 90s era stuff in which instruments had an easier time not clashing and everything stayed in their lanes. I don't tune down any lower than drop C# and I've definitely never had an issue with bass and I love featuring it in songs. I suppose with everyone trying to tune down to Z flat, the bass becomes an issue and let's be honest most guitarists haven't figured out that low end comes from a bass and not putting bridge cables on your 186 string guitar and tuning beyond the range of human hearing.

Some musicians/bands are just dumb. That's really the easiest answer. You have other bands who tune low and still know how to keep the bass where it should be.


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## StevenC (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Nice playing but yeah they are wrong as they are not playing power chords.
> 
> https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/soundgarden/pretty-noose-tabs-484813
> You can also see this in Chris Cornells playing in the video
> ...


So I didn't know this song because I'm not into that music. But this isn't open C, it's literally ruined to be two power chords on top of each other.

This is a terrible example of the tuning informing compositional decisions, because it really looks like they found a chord they liked and tuned to it to easily play that one chord all over the neck. This is literally a power chord song. C-G-C is a power chord. 

This isn't some obtuse Jimmy Page tuning that's literally impossible to play the song without. It's a power chord.

On a 7 string it's a very doable 1335x5x fingering. And that's literally every chord in the song.


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## guns_of_minerva (May 13, 2021)

Your correct I thought that extra G was a C I need to invest in some better glasses!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_C_tuning however its still classed as Open C


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## StevenC (May 13, 2021)

guns_of_minerva said:


> Your correct I thought that extra G was a C I need to invest in some better glasses!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_C_tuning however its still classed as Open C


It's_ an _open C tuning, because it is tuned to _an _open C chord. C5 specifically, which is the power chord. The first 3 strings are the same as drop C, but the 4th string is tuned to make it easier to play power chords.


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## j3ps3 (May 13, 2021)

StevenC said:


> It's_ an _open C tuning, because it is tuned to _an _open C chord. C5 specifically, which is the power chord. The first 3 strings are the same as drop C, but the 4th string is tuned to make it easier to play power chords.



CGCGCe is supposedly the tuning. That's why I strummed just major barre chords when playing this. 

Edit: I'll give you (not you in particular, StevenC ) that the major third wasn't in the same octave whenever they happened to hit that when strumming those one finger barre chords over the neck.


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## Floppystrings (May 13, 2021)

Does anyone know of other songs where the bass does harmonized leads like at 6:46?


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## guns_of_minerva (May 14, 2021)

Speaks for itself


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## Soya (May 14, 2021)

Floppystrings said:


> Does anyone know of other songs where the bass does harmonized leads like at 6:46?



Basically every other Dream Theater song


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## Floppystrings (May 15, 2021)

So you like a little overdrive on your bass do ya? lol


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## bigcupholder (May 17, 2021)

A lot of newer metal treats the bass as a different timbre more than a different range. It's twangier and fills a different section of the midrange. I'm not a fan of it, but it definitely still plays a part to fill out the sound. Most music would still sound noticeably worse if you took the bass out.


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