# Economy Picking



## JD80 (Nov 17, 2006)

Economy picking,

This a question for all your shredders out there that feel like youve mastered sweep and economy picking. After all the forums Ive been to, it seems like are lots of excellent players on here without too many newbs who dont know what theyre talking aboutso hopefully now that Ive padded your egos, give me some advice. 

Ive become pretty obsessed with perfecting my alternating, economy, and sweep picking in the past few months. Before I ask my economy picking question, I think its important to describe my alternate picking technique because the two techniques must mesh with each other so you can switch back and forth seamlessly. In terms of alternate picking, Ive tried to copy John Petrucci as much as possible from his rock discipline DVD.

From him Ive learned:	

1. Minimize the amount your hand moves up and down away from the guitar when picking  preferably none, all picking motion is straight parallel to the guitar  no pendulum type picking motion if possible.

2. Pick almost exclusively using your wrist.

3. When switching strings, use wrist movement, but then follow your hand by moving your arm. I figure this is to keep your hand and wrist in the exact same position regardless of what string youre picking on. 

4. Use same technique no matter what picking speed you use.but use slightly larger pick strokes when picking slowsmaller when going fast.

To give an idea where Im at skill wise  I do exercises where Im picking one note in groups of 4s or 6s, then switching to the next string seamlessly. I usually pick arpeggio for this. I can get this to about 170-180 bpm sixteenth notes when Im at my best and warmed up. Any faster than that and it turns to slop. Id like to get this to around 200-210. 

And also when sweep picking:

Use your wrist for sweeps involving only the high e, b, and g. (three string sweeps). If its more than 3 strings, use your arm as well. 

So finally, what kind of motion do you guys use when economy picking? It its a run where Id typically just use one mini sweep, for instance some fast run thats on 2 strings, but instead of one part where its outside picking, Id instead sweep that part. For situations like that, I naturally use just my wrist. However, when Im trying some monster run where its 3 notes per string across all 6 strings, my hand gets confused. Its like, I feel like Im sort of sweep picking, because 2/3 of the notes Im playing are sweeps: DUD DUD DUD, only the up strokes aren't part of a sweep. Its mostly sweeping, so I feel like my arm should be doing all the work. 

If youve made it this far into my post and still feel like replying, your advice is GREATLY appreciated. Im taking lessons from a teacher right now who is more of the Paul Gilbert school of picking, but I desperately want to master economy picking.

Thanks in advance


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## Cancer (Nov 17, 2006)

JD80 said:


> So finally, what kind of motion do you guys use when economy picking? It its a run where Id typically just use one mini sweep, for instance some fast run thats on 2 strings, but instead of one part where its outside picking, Id instead sweep that part. For situations like that, I naturally use just my wrist. However, when Im trying some monster run where its 3 notes per string across all 6 strings, my hand gets confused. Its like, I feel like Im sort of sweep picking, because 2/3 of the notes Im playing are sweeps: DUD DUD DUD, only the up strokes aren't part of a sweep. Its mostly sweeping, so I feel like my arm should be doing all the work.



Before I go anywhere with this, the answers to all of your questions can be found on Frank Gambale's Monster Licks and Speed Picking DVD (and to a lesser degree Frank Gambale's Chopbuilder). IMO Frank has mastered this technique, adn his instructional video is excellent, not for just the theory behind the technique, but for the excellent footage of him performing the technique.

Having said that, here are my opinions about economy picking.

1. Unless you are physically unable to do so, for economy picking the "relaxed" motion should be coming from the wrist. It may take some experimentation to find a placement for your arm, but once you find it you should be able to economy pick 3nps scales ascending (dud dud) and descending (udu udu) with very little up or down sliding motion from your forearm. During the experimentation I would play as slow as you can, focusing on finding a comfortable placement and not speed.

2. It's my belief that many players will lead you believe that alternate picking and economy are two completely different schools of mental and physical thought. IMO , this is rubbish, as a basic "rudiment" for picking 3nps shapes are exactly the same. DUD and UDU are just that, DUD and UDU, and I've found that economy picing really allow to focus on each rudiment individually, and to eventually make them equal, where with alternate picking one tends to have one motion dominate over the other (usually DUD over UDU).

3. What's my point? You mentioned earlier that when doing DUD DUD the up's aren't part of the sweep, well that's true but only because you're (probably) ascending, if you're descending then the down's wouldn't be part of the sweep. Ultimately you'll want to get these even. maybe by using a 2 string exericse (*DUD DUD* _shift_ *UDU UDU* _shift back_), this works really well switching back and forth between econ and alternate, using the same physical motions for both DUD and UDU in both econ and alternate.


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## distressed_romeo (Nov 17, 2006)

OK, a few thoughts..

1) You'd probably be better served using a similar motion for both alternate and economy/sweep picking, as using a totally different physical motion for each will make it awkward to switch seemlessly between the two. My personal picking style is about 80% wrist and 20% arm. That may be what's preventing you from mastering economy picking, if there's too great a gap between your alternate picking and sweeping.
2) I firmly believe that economy picking should be developed on a foundation of extremely solid alternate picking, so keep practicing what your teacher gives you. Even if you favour more economy picking or legato in your personal style, practicing alternate picking is an important discipline for your picking hand.
3) When developing economy picking, DO NOT go for speed first. Go for accuracy and tonal control first, and the speed will follow. One of the criticisms many people make about economy picking is that it leads to sloppiness and messy playing, and that's invariably due to people trying to get extra notches on the metronome when their technique isn't really ready to accomodate it.
4) 'Rock Discipline' is an excellent DVD. I'd also recommend Troy Stetina's 'Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar' book, and Guthrie Govan's 'Creative Guitar Volume Two', and they both feature excellent breakdowns of all the major guitar techniques. If you're seriously interested in economy picking, then in addition to the Frank Gambale material Psyphre recommended, check out Shaun Baxter's 'Guitar Gym' articles in back issues of Guitar Techniques, as that features the best analysis of economy picking I've ever seen.
5) Don't neglect your left hand. Often problems with fast picking licks are more due to bad fingering than picking hand discipline. Practice a fair amount of legato as well.
6) Be patient. Good chops take years to develop, especially if you want to to master all aspects of guitar technique. Be honest with yourself about your current level, and don't try to push your technique at a pace it doesn't want to go, as it'll lead to problems later. Make sure you take the opportunity to turn off the metronome for a while each day and just jam and have fun.

Hope that helps...


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## JD80 (Nov 17, 2006)

psyphre said:


> Before I go anywhere with this, the answers to all of your questions can be found on Frank Gambale's Monster Licks and Speed Picking DVD (and to a lesser degree Frank Gambale's Chopbuilder). IMO Frank has mastered this technique, adn his instructional video is excellent, not for just the theory behind the technique, but for the excellent footage of him performing the technique..



I've heard that recommended many times for economy picking. I guess sometimes I need to have something repeated to me over and over before it finally sinks in. Consider it purchased. 



psyphre said:


> 3. What's my point? You mentioned earlier that when doing DUD DUD the up's aren't part of the sweep, well that's true but only because you're (probably) ascending, if you're descending then the down's wouldn't be part of the sweep. Ultimately you'll want to get these even. maybe by using a 2 string exericse (DUD DUD shift UDU UDU shift back), this works really well switching back and forth between econ and alternate, using the same physical motions for both DUD and UDU in both econ and alternate.



Yes, thats what I meant, DUD DUD for ascending runs, UDU UDU for descending runs. There's only one note per triplet that isn't part of a sweep. I had actually come up with that switching exercise you described. I've found that my upward sweep using my wrist is pretty weak. I do think thats one significant part of my problem: learning to sweep using a relaxed wrist motion. I think I have it almost down for downsweeps, but not upsweeps. Its tricky because I have to execute a controlled large picking motion and tilt my wrist a little to angle the pick appropriately at the same time.



distressed_romeo said:


> 1) You'd probably be better served using a similar motion for both alternate and economy/sweep picking, as using a totally different physical motion for each will make it awkward to switch seemlessly between the two. My personal picking style is about 80% wrist and 20% arm. That may be what's preventing you from mastering economy picking, if there's too great a gap between your alternate picking and sweeping.



I think that is definitely a large part of it...my sweeping and alternate picking need similar mechanics. I started off learning sweeping using mostly my arm. I think arm is still the way to go for 5 and 6 string sweeps. Is that how you guys do it?



distressed_romeo said:


> 2) I firmly believe that economy picking should be developed on a foundation of extremely solid alternate picking, so keep practicing what your teacher gives you. Even if you favour more economy picking or legato in your personal style, practicing alternate picking is an important discipline for your picking hand.
> 3) When developing economy picking, DO NOT go for speed first. Go for accuracy and tonal control first, and the speed will follow. One of the criticisms many people make about economy picking is that it leads to sloppiness and messy playing, and that's invariably due to people trying to get extra notches on the metronome when their technique isn't really ready to accomodate it.



Complete agree...on all points.



distressed_romeo said:


> 4) 'Rock Discipline' is an excellent DVD. I'd also recommend Troy Stetina's 'Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar' book, and Guthrie Govan's 'Creative Guitar Volume Two', and they both feature excellent breakdowns of all the major guitar techniques. If you're seriously interested in economy picking, then in addition to the Frank Gambale material Psyphre recommended, check out Shaun Baxter's 'Guitar Gym' articles in back issues of Guitar Techniques, as that features the best analysis of economy picking I've ever seen.



I've got speed mechanics too. A few months ago I actually learned all of flight of the bumblebee from that....pretty killer alt. picking workout. Lots of nasty inside picking runs. I'll pick up the Govan book with my next amazon order. That Guitar techniques magazine looks great. That's all I want out of a guitar magazine, the lessons, screw everything else. Unfortunately, it looks like it would be like 10 bucks an issue for me, living in the US. I can't imagine finding back issues would be any cheaper. But if I could find just the issues from Shaun Baxter you recommended, I would definitely pay the price for them.


Thanks, both of you, for your advice....


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## Lankles (Nov 18, 2006)

I automatically started economy picking, perhaps due to years as a violinist. Now everyone who is worse than me is stupefied by my speed and everyone who is better is disgusted by my fumbling innacuracy. Follow the advice these kind gentlemen give to the letter or you will get rodney dangerfield levels of respect.

Any hints for repairing my horrible technique good sirs?


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## distressed_romeo (Nov 18, 2006)

Patience. Start again VERY SLOWLY with a metronome (or better, a drummer or drum machine) and practice repetitive patterns in different rhythmic groupings, all over the neck. Start at a speed where you can execute sextuplets and sixteenth notes cleanly and evenly (ideally with both clean and distorted sounds) and just keep going like that for a while each day (20-30 minutes should do it). Resist the temptation to push the speed up. What you're after here is rhythmic control as opposed to speed (which it sounds like you already have).

Do this like I described, and when you want to rip again, you should be far more in control.

Just out of interest, when you're bowing on a violin, is it alternate strokes, like alternate picking on a guitar, or do you catch multiple strings with one stroke?


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## Cancer (Nov 18, 2006)

I just remembered this reading the other responses, but what kind of picks are you using? For me, when actually performing econ picking, skinny flexible picks are a no/no, I like Dunlop Stubbys 3.0, although many here favor the Jazz III (which is fine too).

However, when I was developing the technique, I used Fender thin/medium picks,as they forced me to slow down and really focus on getting my right hand positioning correctly, the flexible nature of these make it really hard to control, and I found once I could with those, even slowly, when I moved back to Stubbys, the technique was easier to execute and I could play it faster. Even now I may go back to thin picks for maintenance.

Lankles, you may find this, and post above, good for repairing technique, it what I used to repair mine (nerve damage from jackhammer use in my 20's)

Hope this helps.


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## distressed_romeo (Nov 18, 2006)

psyphre said:


> I just remembered this reading the other responses, but what kind of picks are you using? For me, when actually performing econ picking, skinny flexible picks are a no/no, I like Dunlop Stubbys 3.0, although many here favor the Jazz III (which is fine too).
> 
> However, when I was developing the technique, I used Fender thin/medium picks,as they forced me to slow down and really focus on getting my right hand positioning correctly, the flexible nature of these make it really hard to control, and I found once I could with those, even slowly, when I moved back to Stubbys, the technique was easier to execute and I could play it faster. Even now I may go back to thin picks for maintenance.
> 
> ...



Interesting idea...I'll give that a go tonight.


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## JD80 (Nov 19, 2006)

psyphre said:


> I just remembered this reading the other responses, but what kind of picks are you using? For me, when actually performing econ picking, skinny flexible picks are a no/no, I like Dunlop Stubbys 3.0, although many here favor the Jazz III (which is fine too).
> 
> However, when I was developing the technique, I used Fender thin/medium picks,as they forced me to slow down and really focus on getting my right hand positioning correctly, the flexible nature of these make it really hard to control, and I found once I could with those, even slowly, when I moved back to Stubbys, the technique was easier to execute and I could play it faster. Even now I may go back to thin picks for maintenance.
> 
> ...



I use Jazz IIIs. The first time I tried them, I bought the regular version and the bigger version. Even though grip is easier with the big Jazz III, I still prefer the smaller ones...not sure why. How does the stubby 3.0 compared to the "big stubby" (the incredibly thick clear purple pick). I used to use big stubbys, seemed good for sweeping, but I didn't like them for alt picking. 

I can't stand thinner picks, but I'll give that a try for developing technique. 

BTW, I picked up the Frank Gambale's monster licks and speed picking. Holy crap I should have bought that thing months ago. Excellent DVD.


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