# World Musical Instruments Co DOMINATION?



## GTTK (Mar 5, 2016)

Hello Guys/Girls

World Musical Instruments Co DOMINATION?

Every time I watch a video, or read about a new company where they talk about their "imports" line, the World Musical Instruments Co comes along. Almost every big brand is now made by WMI, even the new comers like Zack Wylde and not so big Ormsby and even Strandberg moved there.

Now this not about quality, this not about talking bad about their products, I'm by no means interested in diminishing brands or companies here, I'm just interested in few aspects related to diversity of products.

If you find out one day that "Mr X burger" company actually makes McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's etc, what would be the point to prefer one over the other? Yes one might add more of this, less that, none of those, round patty, square patty, fried, bbq, etc, but the essence is that every single burger is made by same people.

Get it? WMI is clearly dominating guitar production, and I don't blame them, good quality and hey the business is sky rocking for them, but is it Ok that "almost" every big player started to taste, smell, look and feel similar? where is the diversity? what are the basis to choose PRS over SCHECTER over CHAPMAN over X over XX? shape and features? the price tag according to their business size?

No, this is not about Asian production Vs USA or European production, but I'm thinking something is going to happen, sooner or later either a new player will hit hard, or customers are going to push brands to make their own product and move back to their origins, therefore force price tags to fall from their dreams of charging 4000$ for a guitar. Some brands will easily do it, but brands owned by people that are not related to the industry like Chapman will always depend on subcontracting factories.

WMI started to make big noise when you read World Musical Instruments Co on the back of the PRS SE headstocks, and now everybody knows about them, so what about if they start their own brand? why not? imagine if they take their best staff, the most experienced and take them to a better equipped facilities to make the new standard of guitar production? I reckon the y would do just fine. Because to be honest it seems to me that we are buying more WMI instruments, the brand itself is starting to become models for their production, so in fact we buy an WMI PRS model, or a WMI Chapman model, isn't it?

This seems a rant, but is not, or at least not against WMI. Is more about why those brands are trying to sell you a diluted-colored-sweetened version of the same product, don't you deserve more honest variety and/or diversity of products?

Thank you!


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Mar 5, 2016)

If you've got no issue with their build quality, then the diversity comes in the design of the guitars theyre toll manufacturing.

Fujigen Gakki seem to have done ok over the years...


----------



## A-Branger (Mar 5, 2016)

there is no point of them making their own brand, when they are already aking a far bigger business and more $$$$ by building guitars for the majority of the market out there. 

they have a good reputation and good build quality. So I dont really mind, if not the fact that knowing a guitar is coming from their factory it makes me feel confident to know Im getting a good instrument no matter what.

yes, the difference would come in shape, design, features, colors etc.

I do agree to a certain point that the only issue it could create on a future is to people complain about guitars not being on the same price, as we all know "how much" it should really cost, because brand X is charging $$ and not $$$$ and oth guitars are build on the same place. So it would be easier to spot who is charging for a brand logo on the headstock.

The problem with that ^^ is that every company has a different system for delivering and shipping guitars. Chapman doesnt have any dealers, they ship the guitars directly to the stores, so as not having a middle man they save some $$ in the process. 

Also companies have different quality control process after the guitar leave the factories. Some might just open the box and be done, others might re-work the frets, intonation, clean ect ect. This takes $$$ to do.

Also not really sure how the factory works. I know they might have some standard custom price tags per job. Like cnc machine $$ amount under X hours, set necks $, neck trough $$$, bolt on $$, 3 piece necks $, 5 piece $$$, different prices for woods. You as a builder might have a basic wood option, a standard, exotic, rare woods. All of them with different price tags. Same with the hardware, they can offer X, XX, or Y hardware for different prices, or you can give your own hardware for them to use. I know Ormsby for his guitars he is using a special custom designed fanned bridge by hipshot, but the has to order those bridges to hipshot first and tries to do it at a time they could arrive to the factory before the guitars are ready to be assembled, in this way he wont loose time in the production. X brand might use the on-house pups, Y brand might use dimarzios, Z brand might be Dimarzios best friend so he would get a big discount, W brand uses EMGs, but only in 2 models so he buys 100 sets at $$$ price, but V brand also uses EMGs but hey use them in every model so they have to buy 800 sets, so EMG gives them a discount that result in them spending $. Then you might have different prices per finishes and paints. 
in top of that is the amount of guitars you order (Im speculating here, not sure if this would be true or not) But the more guitars you order the cheaper? would be, problem is then you need to be able to sell those.... No idea if this is a factor on the final price, cold be

Also you might have a price tag on the people who work on your guitars???. Like they might have 4 different level workers and luthiers there, so if you want the top guy to work on your guitar then you might have to pay some extra $$ for him... not sure about this one, but it could be too

All of these together makes X guitar $$ and Y guitar $$$$$$ to build. And to X guitar to feel and play way different to Y


----------



## mnemonic (Mar 5, 2016)

As said earlier, the diversity comes from the designs from the companies that contract WMI. Schecter specs things totally differently from PRS, who specs things totally differently from Chapman, etc. Different body shapes, neck joints, neck profiles, wood choices, hardware choices, etc. If WMI had very inflexible production, and everything got the same neck profile, scale length, woods, frets, etc. that would be a point to make, but luckily that isn't the case. 

The only real issue I can see from having pretty much all mid-range guitars coming from the same factory, is business continuation in the event of something major happening, like the factory burning down, earthquake, flood, poor management, etc. The management thing is actually something we've seen very recently from WMI (see ormsby's posts on the matter) but it looks like they're ironing everything out at this point, and back on track. That has the potential to leave a huge hole in the market.


----------



## laxu (Mar 5, 2016)

Nearly all eyeglasses and sunglasses frames are made by Luxxotica but sold under many different brand names and people find that the designs of a particular brand fit their face and style best. WMI is essentially the same situation without as much clout in the industry.

The production line for say PRS SE and Schecter are most likely exactly the same with just different CNC template used. Where it starts to differ is how much they spend on things like QA, finishes, hardware and electronics, wood quality etc even within their own lines. At one point it seemed there were a lot of guitars from different brands coming in the exact same shades of black, red and blue. The brands behind those probably picked some cheaper option instead of specifying a custom color.

WMI has no need to start their own brands because that's a lot of work in all areas. They are in the business of building guitars, not showing them at NAMM, selling them to dealers and end users. If they can build tons of guitars for various brands it's a better deal than trying to come up with their own of which they can't sell as many. A guitar store might have say 20 guitars made by WMI but they are by PRS, Schecter, ESP/LTD or whatever. Selling 20 WMI branded guitars in the same store just wouldn't happen.

The shape and materials of a guitar are probably the most important factors for people. Take me for example - I would not have ordered a Kiesel Aries in its standard form but because they came out with a multiscale version I now have one on order. It's little things like these that drive peoples choices so even if the guitars are made by the same factory, it's not like they feel exactly the same due to differences in models.


----------



## GTTK (Mar 5, 2016)

Nice guys, glad to see you all have clear the business concept behind the guitar industry.

I've used the "Own Brand" concept to illustrate how actually the factory (WMI) has become as important as the brands itself, (like a sub brand sort of thing)

Is clear that the diversity inside WMI are the clients requests, or perhaps the budget limits to produce an specific guitar. Now to put this in another food analogy  it will be like this: I can make a dish A for $$ and I will cook to my best knowledge. No I can get ingredients from different sources (better quality if you will) but instead it will cost me $$$ to make dish B, at the end both dishes will be same but different, yet they will taste like a cooked them. Does this sound right?

Now this subcontracting biz formula was the option for big name companies to fight counterfeits, "Don't buy Gobson buy Epiphone". Somewhere in the middle some companies started to create a new niche "mid-budget" guitars, and it became the chicken of the golden eggs. For some companies these mid-budget products are actually their product numero 1, and obviously the biz idea opened the door for new companies to land right on that niche (Chapman). The only company that breaks the pattern is ESP, they are so proud and so sure about the quality of their Japanese line, that they had to open the ESP USA so mortals can at least have an idea (money) of how the Japanese made are really like, and then they have Korean and Chinese of course.

My point? It doesn't matter how much you change the ingredients, it will always be an WMI product. You have lots of options if you have the money to buy USA, EU, Australia made guitars (The Expensive Niche) and then lots of options in the cheap market (Indonesia, India, China, etc), but in the mid-budget it seems that things are very narrow. Personally don't Mexico quality can compete with WMI, and then you have MIRR (Reverend) Cort and Samick (while on that subject do you guys know if WMI is or was related to Samick?).

So if these are all good guitars why should I care if they ALL come from WMI? Maybe the consumer/client don't have any reason to worry, but I would much rather see many players (factories) trying to evolve in the production, whether those are new processes, materials, etc. 

The reason or the main reason for me to object this topic, is because I've been repairing instruments for the last 15 years, and ever since repaired the first PRS SE it just seems to me that I've been working on the same guitars, bad guitars? NOT AT ALL! Just not exciting, and nothing new to learn from them any more!


----------



## laxu (Mar 5, 2016)

jonbuho said:


> So if these are all good guitars why should I care if they ALL come from WMI? Maybe the consumer/client don't have any reason to worry, but I would much rather see many players (factories) trying to evolve in the production, whether those are new processes, materials, etc.
> 
> The reason or the main reason for me to object this topic, is because I've been repairing instruments for the last 15 years, and ever since repaired the first PRS SE it just seems to me that I've been working on the same guitars, bad guitars? NOT AT ALL! Just not exciting, and nothing new to learn from them any more!



Guitars are pretty simple things and there isn't anything all that different in production methods between factories either. Nor should there be, a CNC machine makes an accurate guitar every time and is ideal for mass production.

It's generally the hardware available on the market that limits what they can be. Ibanez seems to be one of the few that designs their own bridges etc while others generally use Schaller/Hipshot/Gotoh products. It took Hipshot to release those single and headless bridges for multiscale and headless guitars to become anything more than stuff found from boutique brands. It's quite telling that even 20+ years later we are still using Original Floyd Rose trems and Tune-o-matics.


----------



## wakjob (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm grateful for WMI. 

If anything, they showed the rest of the manufacturers & sub-contractors that if you build quality the market will follow you. Sometimes loyally. 

It's what we all want. A well built instrument at a fair price.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if we see some new factories popping up and following suit in the near future.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Mar 5, 2016)

It's nothing more than a selling point. 

The big OEMs have been around for decades, it wasn't until PRS and a couple others started touting which OEM in an attempt to assign a mark of quality. 

You know why everyone is going to WMI? Because thier minimum orders are some of the smallest in the industry. They want that niche. That's why Chapman, Agile, Ormsby, etc are going with WMI, doesn't hurt that people think that WMI has some kind of special sauce for making guitars. 

Quantity production in South Korea is hitting a point where it's not as profitable, hence Cortek leaving. In a few more decades the trend will likely continue.


----------



## stevexc (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm honestly not concerned about a lack of diversity. I can pick up a Schecter Demon, an LTD H-1001, a PRS SE Custom 24, or whatever else you'd like that's made by WMI and, in my experience at least, they'll feel more like another guitar from the parent company than they do like each other.

Right now the biggest similarity WMI's stuff have (again, in my experience) has been the consistency. Whenever I see that familiar serial number layout I feel pretty confident that there's likely not going to be any significant issues with it.


----------



## Andromalia (Mar 5, 2016)

Main danger I guess is WMI becoiming complacent and trying to cut some additional corners. By the time the customers realise it thousands of bad guitars will be out.


----------



## GTTK (Mar 6, 2016)

laxu said:


> Guitars are pretty simple things and there isn't anything all that different in production methods between factories either. Nor should there be, a CNC machine makes an accurate guitar every time and is ideal for mass production/QUOTE]
> 
> There are many things that differ from one CNC machine to another, for example a HAAS machine is not the same as a MAZAK and those are not the same as a more conventional 3 axis CNC.
> 
> ...


----------



## mnemonic (Mar 6, 2016)

jonbuho said:


> There are many things that differ from one CNC machine to another, for example a HAAS machine is not the same as a MAZAK and those are not the same as a more conventional 3 axis CNC.
> 
> Other things can be incorporated by another player (factory). Finishing for example is not only about nitro vs poly, there is also acrylics, acrylates, electrostatic paints, catalyzed, UV cured.
> 
> What about special treatments for wood? Or composite materials, and I could go on and on. As said before for the client/user this whole subject might not be important, but for me it is (some how). WMI can certainly offer many options to their clients, but they can't reach every single method, and there is where the diversity of production is limited right now.



I don't really know anything about CNC machines so I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but they get to the same end result (a guitar-shaped peice of wood) does it matter what CNC is used?

As for the other differences, specialist finishes, composites, treatments like roasted wood, I'm wondering if thats more something that none of the people who contract them care about, rather than something they can't do. 

WMI showed they're not afraid to change processes and make something they're unfamiliar with when they took the contract to make the Strandberg OS line. They're very different from anything else they make, given the unconventional body shape, unconventional hardaware, headless, fanned frets, fanned pickups, etc. I'm guessing that if a guitar company asked them to put roasted maple tops on a few models, or use some acrylic finish, they probably would be able to, though there would certainly be additional cost involved. Its just that nobody is asking for that. These are mid-range guitars after all, those options listed are generally reserved for higher-end stuff, usually from more esoteric brands.


----------



## GTTK (Mar 6, 2016)

mnemonic said:


> I don't really know anything about CNC machines so I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but they get to the same end result (a guitar-shaped peice of wood) does it matter what CNC is used?



Well to be fair the end result from the CNC is just pretty much the same, more or less accurate, or more or less intricate cut depending on the machine, but yes average Joe wouldn't know and wouldn't care anyway.

The bottom line is that WMI is doing a great job, I can't deny that, and is never been the point, but yes I'd love to see more competition in between those brands opting for different factories, so they can squeeze more the selling point factor to the end consumer. Different woods, hardware, colors and/or shapes "only" doesn't cut it for me right now. Maybe all this dilemma is because I don't look at the business from the player stand point, perhaps!


----------



## A-Branger (Mar 6, 2016)

mnemonic said:


> WMI showed they're not afraid to change processes and make something they're unfamiliar with when they took the contract to make the Strandberg OS line. They're very different from anything else they make, given the unconventional body shape, unconventional hardaware, headless, fanned frets, fanned pickups, etc.



I know they are different, but in reality they are not that much.

Body and neck, its jsut a different shape like any other brand has. They supply the plans for the CNC and the factory would just cut it.

Same with hardware. The templates are already made to cut the holes for htem. AS the hardware itself, WMI doesnt produce the hardware, they just instal it. So as simple as "hey, this is the hardware for our guitars, it matched our cnc plans, so you only need to screw here and here, and to operate the hardware, its here and here, bye". Not much difference with other brands and other kinds of hardware.

Same about the pups, unless WMI make the pups

faned frets is nothing special either. Most of todays fretboards are cut by the cnc machine too. IF they are doing it by hand (Which I dont think so due to the high volumes of guitars being made, then the accuracy of the cut is being followed by a template, same as any other template they would have in any scale lenght the customer ask for.

Strandbergs are yes indeed a "out of the norm" kinda of guitar. And a lot of R&D might have gone into the unique neck design. But in reality they are not that different to make than any other brand. Even the neck you still need to do your R&D as a brand to make your "perfect D or C or V or Whatever" neck. If not I would say these guitars are "easier" to build as they dont have break angles or scarf joints in the necks (plus they waste less woods) and the body is a flat top.


----------



## A-Branger (Mar 6, 2016)

jonbuho said:


> Well to be fair the end result from the CNC is just pretty much the same, more or less accurate, or more or less intricate cut depending on the machine, but yes average Joe wouldn't know and wouldn't care anyway.



the main thing is the speed of a machine can make the build and how much they can do a whole job by "themselves". Also the amount of machines they have that can work at the same time.


At the end like you said, all of them make the same-ish result (time varies) But after that its the skill and process of the people from WMI to sand, shape, prep, paint, finish and quality control the guitar from where the machine left it.So although a CNC do 80% of the work, its the last 20% that puts the word "quality" on a guitar


----------



## laxu (Mar 6, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> the main thing is the speed of a machine can make the build and how much they can do a whole job by "themselves". Also the amount of machines they have that can work at the same time.
> 
> 
> At the end like you said, all of them make the same-ish result (time varies) But after that its the skill and process of the people from WMI to sand, shape, prep, paint, finish and quality control the guitar from where the machine left it.So although a CNC do 80% of the work, its the last 20% that puts the word "quality" on a guitar



Exactly. Even for finish it depends on if it's handled by robots or not but human quality checks and the sanding and buffing are very important in the end result. 

It's a good thing that nowadays it's harder to find a guitar that is truly bad guitar. Even in the early 2000s there was large variance in quality. While it may make different guitars feel more the same, it also means that if persons A and B buy the same model they have equal chance to be happy with theirs.


----------



## GTTK (Mar 6, 2016)

laxu said:


> Exactly. Even for finish it depends on if it's handled by robots or not but human quality checks and the sanding and buffing are very important in the end result.



This is important because some people believe that a CNC made guitars means some machine that you put wood + hardware and at the other end the guitar comes out ready.


----------



## Andromalia (Mar 6, 2016)

Wait until when 3D printing is available to the individuals. That is likely the next step, when you and me can buy a guitar plan, put it in a machine and get a guitar out of it. WMI is dead in 20 years. All that will be left are the artisan shops. Mass fabrication will be delegated to the customer himself.


----------



## A-Branger (Mar 6, 2016)

I dont think 3D printing would do, at least not yet while we still are building guitars made out of wood. You cant print wood. Unless a certain plastic material becomes popular.

What I do think that cnc machines would become quicker, smarter, easier to work. So like you said, you could take your guitar plans and cnc it on a machine near you. Or laser cut, that could be it too. who knows



jonbuho said:


> This is important because some people believe that a CNC made guitars means some machine that you put wood + hardware and at the other end the guitar comes out ready.



Agree on that, and I would add the other way around too. There is the belief that when a company says that their guitar are "hand made" is better somehow? 

if not the accuracy of the cnc makes it that the guitar and neck would come as close to the final product as possible and the guitars would be more constant, plus it would require less work hours so less $$$, leaving less chance to error. And true be told ALL guitars are "hand made" at any giving point. Its so much a machine can do, but at the end every guitar passes by some ones hands 



> Originally Posted by laxu View Post
> Exactly. Even for finish it depends on if it's handled by robots or not but human quality checks and the sanding and buffing are very important in the end result.



lol Ernie Ball actually buff their guitars by a machine. At least mayoirty of the process. But still the guitar passes trough someone hands to check for small buffing adjustments


----------



## marcwormjim (Mar 6, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Wait until when 3D printing is available to the individuals. That is likely the next step, when you and me can buy a guitar plan, put it in a machine and get a guitar out of it. WMI is dead in 20 years. All that will be left are the artisan shops. Mass fabrication will be delegated to the customer himself.



Ideally - But the projected future of The Jetsons isn't quite here, yet, either.


----------



## laxu (Mar 6, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Wait until when 3D printing is available to the individuals. That is likely the next step, when you and me can buy a guitar plan, put it in a machine and get a guitar out of it. WMI is dead in 20 years. All that will be left are the artisan shops. Mass fabrication will be delegated to the customer himself.



Not gonna happen. It would have to be either made from tons of small pieces or you'd need a huge 3D printer. An adequate CNC machine to cut a guitar body or neck also takes lots of space. Programming a CNC machine also requires a lot of knowledge, it's not like just cramming in a 3D model file.

Plus for 3D printing you'd have to come up with a material that actually sounds as good as wood.


----------



## GTTK (Mar 6, 2016)

Laser is already in use to some extent, but is not so common in the industry yet. 

3D printed guitars? sure already exist but not as wood though, now don't think that this is a scfi thing, composite materials that are wood like already exist, so it won't take long until those materials can be 3D printed, now for such technology to reach your bench printer will still be a good while, but not decades though.


----------



## marcwormjim (Mar 7, 2016)

laxu said:


> Plus for 3D printing you'd have to come up with a material that actually sounds as good as wood.



Unless your wood is ferromagnetic, we may wish to go with "You'd have to come up with a workable yet durable material as cheap and easily sourceable as wood; so as to be so economical as to be adopted by the industry once all the surplus wood has been used."


----------



## mnemonic (Mar 7, 2016)

The real question is, will guitarists be interested in a guitar made out of not-wood? 

Some, sure. But most guitarists won't play anything but a strat or les paul, good luck convincing them to play a plastic guitar. Might as well tell them to use a solid state amp while you're at it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Mar 7, 2016)

mnemonic said:


> Some, sure. But most guitarists won't play anything but a strat or les paul, good luck convincing them to play a plastic guitar. Might as well tell them to use a solid state amp while you're at it.



I've been playing long enough to realize that it's really a generational thing more than anything else.


----------



## GTTK (Mar 8, 2016)

Well to be honest things the production of those guitars from none "conventional" materials has improved very much. Vigier, Aristides, Electrical Guitar Company, James Trussart etc, they all use either alternative materials or a combination with wood, and they seem to be doing fine.

Steinberger and Parker were probably the pioneers of alternative materials, unfortunately I would dare to say that they were just way to ahead for their time. Flaxwood had (and still) a good approach but it didn't consolidate to massive success, mainly because you get told that "old" guitars are the holy grail, and even if you dare to use something that is not Ash, Maple, Mahogany, Alder etc, some purist might just roll their eyes.

WMI (and Korea in general) is the new Japan in the world of guitar factories, but look at Japan now, can you mass produce guitars now there like it use to be? No, so I can assume that as Korean expertise, experience is increasing every year, then will also increase the price of mass producing there, so is it China, Indonesia, Vietnam etc the next? who is going to fill that gap?

I do find this production Topic rather interesting, because things have changed, are changing, and most certainly will keep changing, in which way? No clue but that's what makes it interesting


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Mar 8, 2016)

laxu said:


> Guitars are pretty simple things and there isn't anything all that different in production methods between factories either. Nor should there be, a CNC machine makes an accurate guitar every time and is ideal for mass production.
> 
> It's generally the hardware available on the market that limits what they can be. Ibanez seems to be one of the few that designs their own bridges etc while others generally use Schaller/Hipshot/Gotoh products. It took Hipshot to release those single and headless bridges for multiscale and headless guitars to become anything more than stuff found from boutique brands. It's quite telling that even 20+ years later we are still using Original Floyd Rose trems and Tune-o-matics.



20+? Try 39 years - The first Floyd Rose was built in 1977.


----------

