# Federal Gibson Guitar Raid



## Church2224 (Aug 25, 2011)

Gibson Guitar Raided In Memphis And Nashville - WREG



Now we could get into the whole "Corporations are bad vs good vs no one cares" or the government should be focusing on something else the way the economy is ect. ect. , but in this case Gibson knowingly broke the law, and it is not the first time, and that does not change anything. Plus one for the government actually doing it's job.


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## mountainjam (Aug 25, 2011)

What illegal woods are they using? The vid or article didnt say.


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## Wingchunwarrior (Aug 25, 2011)

LALALALALALALALALALALALALALLAAL


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## CFB (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm guessing ebony


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## USMarine75 (Aug 25, 2011)

It was illegally obtained Madagascar Ebony. The US Fish and Wildlife Services raided them and they have been investigating them for several years.

Endangered species trafficking: What did Gibson Guitar know?


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## Church2224 (Aug 25, 2011)

Here is some more info right here- 

Federal Agents Raid Gibson Facilities In Nashville, Memphis - NewsChannel5.com | Nashville News, Weather & Sports

Rosewood and Ebony apparently...


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## The Munk (Aug 25, 2011)

Church2224 said:


> Gibson Guitar Raided In Memphis And Nashville - WREG
> 
> 
> Plus one for the government actually doing it's job.



If that were entirely the case, said alleged illegal wood should have been seized by customs upon inspection in port.
Either someone dropped the ball or someone is really fishing.


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## ILuvPillows (Aug 25, 2011)

Madagascar needs those trees, bastards.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2011)

This isn't the first time Gibson has been hit for illegal wood no? They need to be crashed down upon, hard. I would go as far as saying they don't deserve to be allowed to build if it weren't for their employees (who have no fault in this). 

Munk, black market products don't generally come in through customs.


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## The Munk (Aug 25, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> This isn't the first time Gibson has been hit for illegal wood no? They need to be crashed down upon, hard. I would go as far as saying they don't deserve to be allowed to build if it weren't for their employees (who have no fault in this).
> 
> Munk, black market products don't generally come in through customs.



For the quantities that Gibson is importing, I would imagine the paper trail is what is being looked at, not the wood itself.
I imagine quite a lot slips by customs if they don't inspect every board in a stack.


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## mountainjam (Aug 25, 2011)

Very ironic after gibson just recently was saying exotic woods would be extinct soon.


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## wlfers (Aug 25, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> Very ironic after gibson just recently was saying exotic woods would be extinct soon.



Hm I don't find any irony in that, I think if they said exotic woods were plentiful and then were found out buying illegal wood then there would be a boatload of it.


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## mountainjam (Aug 25, 2011)

athawulf said:


> Hm I don't find any irony in that, I think if they said exotic woods were plentiful and then were found out buying illegal wood then there would be a boatload of it.



If the wood was plentiful chances are it wouldn't be illegal. Therefore, when gibson complains about/acknowledges that certain woods are becoming scarce, but then purchases these woods under the table and contributes to their scarcity, I find it very ironic.


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2011)

Let us not have the age old internet argument of what constitutes irony (although I also was sorely tempted). It has been done after all, most likely to the death of a note dead horse.


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## BangandBreach (Aug 25, 2011)

If this is like last time this happened back in 2009, the real culprit is Gibson's German supplier of Madagascar Ebony, which has a long history of
acquiring Madagascar Ebony via illegal means.


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## SilenceIsACrime (Aug 25, 2011)

Ok, not to derail this thread, but this cracked me up: When News Channel 3 told him (Tourist Howard Weinman) that regulated woods may be used in the guitars, he said, "If we have laws indicating they shouldn't be using certain woods, then it's pretty clear they shouldn't be using that wood."

That's some really powerful insight there, Howard....


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2011)

BangandBreach said:


> If this is like last time this happened back in 2009, the real culprit is Gibson's German supplier of Madagascar Ebony, which has a long history of
> acquiring Madagascar Ebony via illegal means.



And Gibson is none the wiser throughout the process? That might have flown the first time.


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## Demiurge (Aug 25, 2011)

> "That&#8217;s why those instruments are so expensive, because everyone can&#8217;t obtain it," said Kurt "KC" Clayton, a two-time Grammy nominee.



This cracked me up. Like Gibson uses rare, magical woods. Gibson uses the same two woods for every single guitar they build and just got their hands dirty procuring some fretboards.

EDIT: To be more constructive, perhaps this could prompt Gibson into using some different woods. It would be weird if/when mahogany gets rarer and rarer; I would dig a soft maple-over-alder LP.


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## technomancer (Aug 25, 2011)

*Ok folks, if you can't stay on topic stay out of the thread.*


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## SirMyghin (Aug 25, 2011)

Gibson has put up a statement

http://www.gibson.com/absolutenm/templates/FeatureTemplatePressRelease.aspx?articleid=1340&zoneid=6http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 26, 2011)

Demiurge said:


> EDIT: To be more constructive, perhaps this could prompt Gibson into using some different woods. It would be weird if/when mahogany gets rarer and rarer; I would dig a soft maple-over-alder LP.


 
They actually already have been. That new Flying V with a Floyd has an Obeche fingerboard. I assume they dye it, because it's _much_ lighter in color than the fingerboard that V has:


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## The Reverend (Aug 26, 2011)

If Gibson's statement can be believed, it would seem that there's more going on here than meets the eye. It didn't sound like a desperate redirection, contrary to the title, and it didn't sound like excuses, for the most part. They could still be wrong, but it would be on a technicality, and not some heinous corporate greed.


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## Ntbillie (Aug 26, 2011)

Gibson to half 95% Production. PRICE DROP POSSIBLE?

Gibson raids: The full press statement | Total Guitar | MusicRadar.com


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## Deadnightshade (Aug 26, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Gibson has put up a statement
> 
> Gibson Press Releasehttp://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/



From the above link:
"(If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.)This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India. "

If federals got in for that,it's plainly ridiculous .But that statement stinks IMO.


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## Opion (Aug 26, 2011)

Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear | Postmodern Times - WSJ.com



> Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. The Feds are keeping mum, but in a statement yesterday Gibson's chairman and CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, defended his company's manufacturing policies, accusing the Justice Department of bullying the company. "The wood the government seized Wednesday is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier," he said, suggesting the Feds are using the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.
> 
> .....
> 
> The question in the first raid seemed to be whether Gibson had been buying illegally harvested hardwoods from protected forests, such as the Madagascar ebony that makes for such lovely fretboards. And if Gibson did knowingly import illegally harvested ebony from Madagascar, that wouldn't be a negligible offense. Peter Lowry, ebony and rosewood expert at the Missouri Botanical Garden, calls the Madagascar wood trade the "equivalent of Africa's blood diamonds." But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.





I didn't see this posted anywhere, but this article caught my eye on a random news website. I suppose this is only for US Government, seeing how overseas companies like ViK, Strandberg and the like use quite the selection of exotic woods to build their instruments. I wonder if this is going to hinder PRS Private Stock instruments from using their tasty Brazilian Rosewood necks....


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## Church2224 (Aug 26, 2011)

TheJokker said:


> this is the "hope and change" you get from radical liberals. the very same people who have over-regulated business and driven jobs overseas want to regulate anybody who aspires to owning a fine guitar.
> 
> Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear | Postmodern Times - WSJ.com
> 
> radical environmentalists have decided that users of exotic woods are the enemies and are willing to use the power of the federal government to enforce their perspective down everyone's throats. i want these people "out of power". i want less regulation and more freedom. gibson is the victim not the enemy...




After reading into this-



and looking into it more and more, I have to agree with you.

Something is not right here though...


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## ArtDecade (Aug 26, 2011)

I can't afford a PRS Private Stock and those that can afford them will get what they want either way. Ha.


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## JamesM (Aug 26, 2011)

I mean, an armed S.W.A.T. team? Fucking really?


Kudos to the dude for having the balls to continue production and take personal responsibility. I respect that.


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## Uncreative123 (Aug 26, 2011)

Just read this on a blog- regarding the definition of the law that lead to this mess in the first place; Had very little to do with the actual wood:


_So the governments contention is that because American workers are working on that and finishing it, that it is not a finished product and, therefore, initially Madagascar law  and now I guess theyre contending Indian law  says you cant remove unfinished product from the market. So in other words, if a person in Madagascar had completed the work on that blank, it would be legal. But the fact that American workers are finishing the work in the United States, makes it illegal, as far as their concerned._

The governments position is, that is the law of the land in Madagascar and they are saying that is the law of the land in India. That is not the case. The fact is, we have affidavits from numerous government officials  and this court case, specifically now, is for Madagascar wood. We have affidavits from virtually every govt official saying that it is legal, that their definition of what is legal is a fingerboard blank and its been exported within every certification that is necessary. So they have the arrogance to interpret Madagascar law differently than the people of Madagascar.

So the jackboots in the Obama administration are wrongly enforcing other countries laws and preventing American workers from doing their work here.

Typical DOJ: Ignore American laws. Foolishly enforce foreign ones at American companies expense."



Interesting indeed....


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## Powermetalbass (Aug 26, 2011)

Welcome to the world economy friends! Also doesn't surprise me. America policing the world for 75 years without a clue what they are doing.


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## MassNecrophagia (Aug 26, 2011)

I've got some ebony logs Gibson can have.


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## themike (Aug 26, 2011)

Opion said:


> Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear | Postmodern Times - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

It won't affect PRS becuase they cooperate with the DEC unlike Gibson who from my understand, has a bad attitude towards it. I wouldn't be happy either but if you mess with the bull, you're going to get the horns.

Also I can tell you that for every piece of Brazillian rosewood that PRS gets, they have all the paperwork and documentation to cover the legalities of it.


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## Ancestor (Aug 26, 2011)

are you serious? don't snort your les paul, man. that is wack.

well, they know what they're doing. they charge enough for their products, they can be on top of this stuff.


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## mountainjam (Aug 26, 2011)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...5-federal-gibson-guitar-raid.html#post2635064


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## The Reverend (Aug 26, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> Just read this on a blog- regarding the definition of the law that lead to this mess in the first place; Had very little to do with the actual wood:
> 
> 
> _So the governments contention is that because American workers are working on that and finishing it, that it is not a finished product and, therefore, initially Madagascar law  and now I guess theyre contending Indian law  says you cant remove unfinished product from the market. So in other words, if a person in Madagascar had completed the work on that blank, it would be legal. But the fact that American workers are finishing the work in the United States, makes it illegal, as far as their concerned._
> ...



Because Obama handpicked the guy who likes Fender more than Gibson and decided to fuck with them. 

I agree with you on your post, but that slight dig at Obama was kinda reaching, brother.


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## Ancestor (Aug 26, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...5-federal-gibson-guitar-raid.html#post2635064



you know, man... just stupid. then fine. no more wood from there. it's baloney, because they are just trying to push for manufacture in their country and that can't happen with this company.


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## troyguitar (Aug 26, 2011)

Obama prefers maple fretboards.

I had to  at one of the guys who posted about this on a different forum, here's what he wrote:

"God, guns and Gibsons is what made our country GREAT, dammit!"


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## Church2224 (Aug 26, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> Obama prefers maple fretboards.
> 
> I had to  at one of the guys who posted about this on a different forum, here's what he wrote:
> 
> "God, guns and Gibsons is what made our country GREAT, dammit!"



I would get along with that guy really well!


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## SirMyghin (Aug 26, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> Obama prefers maple fretboards.
> 
> I had to  at one of the guys who posted about this on a different forum, here's what he wrote:
> 
> "God, guns and Gibsons is what made our country GREAT, dammit!"



I posted somewhere with some gibbo fanboys and the sentiment was pretty much "Gibson can use whatever trees they damn well feel like no rationale required". Sickening really. I may not agree with the methods excised to enforce this but I certainly don't support illegal wood trade in any way shape or form.


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## KingAenarion (Aug 26, 2011)

The story about the piano company was ridiculous too... $17,500 fine for not filling out the paperwork EXACTLY perfectly... on Piano's so old they were created when harvesting Ivory was a common practice???

Insanity I tell you


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## themike (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm not a Gibson guy but I must say I respect him for standing up and speaking his mind regarding the manner. I mean if you read the open letter on the Gibson website, he literally gives his direct phone number in case anyone wants more information.


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## Opion (Aug 26, 2011)

Ah okay, my bad on the repost. Interesting to see they are defending themselves nonetheless, we'll just have to see how that turns out ourselves.


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## Floppystrings (Aug 27, 2011)

How many Gibson guitars have an ebony fretboard...

The LP Custom? What else?

This doesn't make much sense, sounds kind of weird to me. Sounds like a money collection.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 27, 2011)

This bit made me laugh:



> The Feds are keeping mum, but in a statement yesterday...
> ...the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 27, 2011)

Floppystrings said:


> How many Gibson guitars have an ebony fretboard...
> 
> The LP Custom? What else?
> 
> This doesn't make much sense, sounds kind of weird to me. Sounds like a money collection.



Gibson has a few dozen guitars with Ebony boards, not to mention the custom orders.


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## chronocide (Aug 27, 2011)

One is thoroughly amused at folks using this to have digs at Obama and "liberals" (you know, the "liberals" as labelled by American politics, the guys that would be right wing anywhere else). Because these international laws definitely wouldn't exist if it wasn't for them. Definitely not. Not a chance.

Good grief.

It seems overzealous, but a company of Gibson's size can clearly keep well within the law if it cared to do so. 

Also, the scaremongering of the articles regarding old guitars or anything with controlled woods is laughable. I've LOTS of friends who travel around the world with Brazilian rosewood guitars. Old Martins, a bunch who do it all the time with Moon acoustics, PRS modern Eagles and the like, without bothering with documentation and to my knowledge none of them have ever encountered a problem.

I know a friend had to stop travelling with one guitar because of its tortoiseshell and ivory, but him aside...


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## nothingleft09 (Aug 27, 2011)

Ok, I'm just saying here..... Gibson addressed Indian woods... I thought this was a Madagascar Ebony problem? Nice way to avoid the point Gibson. Although they could just be maing a reference to the law in itself, but wouldn't you atleast make your point relevant to the charges at hand?


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## 7stg (Aug 27, 2011)

This is so wrong. Armed swat to go steal millions of dollars worth of their wood and shut them down. The wood was either certified or controlled and approved by Indian governmental agencies and passed US customs. As a bonus Gibson has hired 580 new employees in the past 2 years, however no word of who was fired or quit. The interview with Henry Juszkiewicz, Chairman and CEO of Gibson Guitar Corp has more information.




They did it to Rawsome Foods and stole all their food and through it out/ let it spoil. 


Wonder what will happen to the millions of dollars worth of wood. Guess who ultimately will eat that cost.

Welcome to &#1044;ME&#1071;I&#1050;&#1044;


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## Utnapishtim (Aug 28, 2011)

KingAenarion said:


> The story about the piano company was ridiculous too... $17,500 fine for not filling out the paperwork EXACTLY perfectly... on Piano's so old they were created when harvesting Ivory was a common practice???
> 
> Insanity I tell you



If you look up the story, you'll find that the guy told customs that there was no Ivory on the Pianos, and that he had removed the keys and hidden them in his luggage. And this was after his company had asked officials about the importation requirements. He clearly knew what he was doing, and was caught red-handed trying to smuggle Ivory into the US.



> A-440 PIANOS, based in Atlanta, Georgia, imports, exports, and sells pianos to domestic and international customers. In September 2009, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Special Agents received information from the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (&#8220;CITES&#8221 Secretariat&#8217;s office in Geneva, Switzerland, that a representative of A-440 PIANOS had made an inquiry regarding CITES documentation requirements. Within a few weeks, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agents and U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agriculture Specialists inspected a piano shipment imported by A-440 PIANOS. The invoice accompanying the U.S. Customs and Border Protection entry packet declared ten of the eleven pianos in the shipment as having &#8220;no ivory keys.&#8221; No CITES permits or U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service declarations accompanied the shipment. Two pianos had the keyboards removed and five pianos had the individual keys removed. Investigators noted that two piano keyboards were located in the bottom of a crate under furniture and personal effects. The individual keys were located in a crate under a tray of marking pens. The keyboards and individual keys were positively identified to be covered with elephant ivory, which requires a permit to be imported or exported. (Source)


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## thedonal (Aug 29, 2011)

Perhaps there is more than meets the eye, as suggested in this article-

CEO of Gibson Guitar a Republican donor; Democrat competitor uses same wood - Landmark Report

Judging by the criticism on Glassdoor.com, Henry J isn't the most popular of CEOs (indeed-one of the most hated in the country?)- he clearly does himself no favours at all in that press interview. And there's no smoke without fire, but there seems to be another smell here too...

There's a lot of worry about regarding travelling in and out of the US with guitars on the back of this. Not sure how far enforcement will extend though.

I'm sure it'll be an excuse for more Gibson prices hikes (like they're not expensive enough already!)


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## TheSixthWheel (Aug 29, 2011)

Who else is imagining court justices and ageing bureaucrats sitting behind their new ebony office desks and playing songs by The Eagles on Custom Shop Les Pauls with their socks showing?

Seriously though, the way this is unfolding has actually slightly improved my views on Gibson guitars, whatever that's worth. What the fuck was that shit with the government agents having their weapons drawn? What are they expecting, a similar reception to busting in on a street gang's drug manufacturing operation and employees wearing Gibson bandannas all packing 9mm's?

That law is amazingly stupid. How many times do you think that one's been broken? If they're gonna take it that literally, why not recall and seize every guitar associated with that backward as fuck law? Lame as hell.


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## Utnapishtim (Aug 29, 2011)

thedonal said:


> Perhaps there is more than meets the eye, as suggested in this article-
> 
> CEO of Gibson Guitar a Republican donor; Democrat competitor uses same wood - Landmark Report



Note that this article is based on the false premise that Gibson was raided due to the import of "East Indian Rosewood", which Martin also uses. 

However, there are multiple problems with this argument. For one thing, Gibson was not raided due to their import of East Indian Rosewood, but due to a shipment of Indian Ebony which had been intercepted by customs. Secondly, the problem was not so much the type of wood, but rather the form in which it was imported. So even if Martin also uses the same wood, it is entirely possible that they have not broken any laws. Moreover, Gibson not only misrepresented the contents of the shipment, but also hid the fact that they were the recipients. And keeping in mind that this is not the first time that Gibson has been in trouble over the importation of wood, its hardly surprising that the government cracked down on them.

There is more information in the affidavit used to obtain the search warrant: http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wtvf/PDF/GibsonAffidavit.pdf


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## BangandBreach (Aug 29, 2011)

The Armada said:


> I mean, an armed S.W.A.T. team? Fucking really?
> 
> 
> Kudos to the dude for having the balls to continue production and take personal responsibility. I respect that.



Raid does not equal kicking in doors. To the media, any preplanned police action is a raid or sweep.


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## BangandBreach (Aug 29, 2011)

Utnapishtim said:


> Note that this article is based on the false premise that Gibson was raided due to the import of "East Indian Rosewood", which Martin also uses.
> 
> However, there are multiple problems with this argument. For one thing, Gibson was not raided due to their import of East Indian Rosewood, but due to a shipment of Indian Ebony which had been intercepted by customs. Secondly, the problem was not so much the type of wood, but rather the form in which it was imported. So even if Martin also uses the same wood, it is entirely possible that they have not broken any laws. Moreover, Gibson not only misrepresented the contents of the shipment, but also hid the fact that they were the recipients. And keeping in mind that this is not the first time that Gibson has been in trouble over the importation of wood, its hardly surprising that the government cracked down on them.
> 
> There is more information in the affidavit used to obtain the search warrant: http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wtvf/PDF/GibsonAffidavit.pdf



That Landmark Report story sure manages to jump to conclusions based on speculation. 

Martin and Gibson are hardly competitors. Two completely different animals and two completely different players.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 29, 2011)

BangandBreach said:


> Martin and Gibson are hardly competitors. Two completely different animals and two completely different players.



Not really. They both cater to those who are upper middle class to wealthy and value American made guitars which have a rich heritage in 50's, 60's, and 70's music culture. 

They make two different products, for the most part, though there are die hard Gibson acoustic players, but they're competing for the same customers. 

It shouldn't be surprising that those who collect vintage/high end/reissue Gibsons (and Fenders for that matter) typically have a handful of Martins in their stables, and vice versa.


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## Guitarman700 (Aug 29, 2011)

thedonal said:


> Perhaps there is more than meets the eye, as suggested in this article-
> 
> CEO of Gibson Guitar a Republican donor; Democrat competitor uses same wood - Landmark Report



The site you linked is so biased and devoid of factual reporting it makes my brain hurt.


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## BangandBreach (Aug 29, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not really. They both cater to those who are upper middle class to wealthy and value American made guitars which have a rich heritage in 50's, 60's, and 70's music culture.
> 
> They make two different products, for the most part, though there are die hard Gibson acoustic players, but they're competing for the same customers.
> 
> It shouldn't be surprising that those who collect vintage/high end/reissue Gibsons (and Fenders for that matter) typically have a handful of Martins in their stables, and vice versa.




One company produces a wide, wide range of instruments including basses, electric guitars, high end acoustics, high end electric acoustics, and pianos.

One produces high end electric acoustics, ukuleles and banjos(maybe more that I don't know about).

That's what I meant.


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## Utnapishtim (Aug 29, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> The site you linked is so biased and devoid of factual reporting it makes my brain hurt.



I beg your pardon?


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## BangandBreach (Aug 29, 2011)

Utnapishtim said:


> I beg your pardon?



I think he may have meant to quote the landmark post.


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## Guitarman700 (Aug 29, 2011)

BangandBreach said:


> I think he may have meant to quote the landmark post.



Fack. Yeah, I did. Sorry about that.


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## chronocide (Aug 29, 2011)

EDIT: Nevermind, I hadn't spotted Utnapishtim's more knowledgeable response to the article posted on the previous page.


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## Trembulant (Aug 29, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> Because Obama handpicked the guy who likes Fender more than Gibson and decided to fuck with them.
> 
> I agree with you on your post, but that slight dig at Obama was kinda reaching, brother.




Well here's another "opinion" on it. The wood is not illegal. The raid is seemingly unjustified and the way they are going about it more likely is.

OPINION: Obama's Guitar Raid - News - Talk Radio News Service: News, Politics, Media


> President Obama says its a waste of manpower to deport illegal aliens, unless theyve committed some other crime.
> So why did Obamas Justice Department conduct raids on the Gibson Guitar factorytwicenot because of illegal workers, but because they suspect Gibson is using illegal wood. The factory was temporarily shut down and workers sent home.
> The guitar-maker is outraged. The wood involved comes from India, and the federal bureaucrats seem to be enforcing an unclear India law that protects endangered wood. But the company says it scrupulously follows environmental laws.
> Gibsons CEO has another theorythey make guitars in Tennessee, a right-to-work state, while its competitors do not. He thinks the Obama Administration is going after companies that are not unionized.
> Heres the final insultthe Obama bureaucrats making the raids refuse to explain themnot to the public and not even to the company.


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## chronocide (Aug 29, 2011)

If the wood's not illegal why were they trying to mislead people when bringing it into the country?


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## eaeolian (Aug 29, 2011)

> From The Heritage Foundation, I&#8217;m Ernest Istook.



Can ANYTHING happen in this country without it becoming left/right politics?


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## Guitarman700 (Aug 29, 2011)

eaeolian said:


> Can ANYTHING happen in this country without it becoming left/right politics?



God, I wish. This getting old. Honestly, Obama's fault? That's grasping at some pretty thin straws.


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## nothingleft09 (Aug 29, 2011)

The wood is clearly illegal if it is in an UNFINISHED state as Gibson was attempting to import it. Martin on the other hand must buy it in some sort of finished state to be ok and get it through customs legally.

In my opinion for the acoustic market, Gibson and Martin are head to head competitors. Gibson Dove vs. Martin D-28, Gibson Hummingbird vs. Pretty much any Martin in it's price range. They compete for the same customers in the acoustic and bluegrass world. (My Dad for instance plays a Martin D-35 but won't shut up about a hummingbird)


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## Trembulant (Aug 29, 2011)

eaeolian said:


> Can ANYTHING happen in this country without it becoming left/right politics?




Since that is what pulls the strings in this country. It doesn't seem like it does it. Why ignore reality.

It boggles the mind how seemingly intelligent people smirk at the very notion that there can always be something more than meets the eye.

For the fed to go in and shut down a company with no solid proof, r at least explanation, or due process (and put American workers out of a job) for that to not seem bothersome to someone, and for in fact the first thing for people to do is lay the guilt on the company without knowing the full facts or what the bureaucracy entails is telling. What happened to "Until proven Guilty"? What if it happened to you, or your business.

And i'm not saying Obama personally called and said go get em. But 
the fact that these kind of things are being exercised should be under scrutiny. 

Weather this should be lawful for the Government to do at all seems very vague atm.


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## Guitarman700 (Aug 29, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Since that is what pulls the strings in this country. It doesn't seem like it does it. Why ignore reality.
> 
> It boggles the mind how seemingly intelligent people smirk at the very notion that there can always be something more than meets the eye.
> 
> ...



No solid proof? No explanation?  Black market wood is proof enough.
Also, a little friendly advice, people tend to take you more seriously if you put a little more effort into your spelling and syntax. Just a thought.


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## chronocide (Aug 29, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Since that is what pulls the strings in this country. It doesn't seem like it does it. Why ignore reality.
> 
> It boggles the mind how seemingly intelligent people smirk at the very notion that there can always be something more than meets the eye.
> 
> ...



The point is not whether things should be put under scrutiny or questioned, it's simply that the reactionary "The liberals did it! It's Obama's fault!" bollocks that's being parroted with even less evidence is laughable.


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## Guitarman700 (Aug 29, 2011)

chronocide said:


> The point is not whether things should be put under scrutiny or questioned, it's simply that the reactionary "The liberals did it! It's Obama's fault!" bollocks that's being parroted with even less evidence is laughable.



Exactly. besides, Obama is hardly a liberal. I'm sick of all the white trash hicks in this country calling anyone who isn't a right wing nutjob like them "commie Nazi" and other such junk. But this is WAAAAY Off topic. I doubt Obama would care about Gibson right now, besides, this is hardly the first time They've been hit for illegal wood.


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## BangandBreach (Aug 29, 2011)

Breaking news, Apparently the seized guitars are being funneled to Mexican Cartels. This is pretty heavy.



> WASHINGTON - Today's uncovering of secret multi-agency program for shipping illegal Gibson guitars to Mexican drug cartels left red-faced officials of the U.S. Department of Justice scrambling for an explanation amid angry calls for a Congressional investigation.



iowahawk

More at link.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 29, 2011)

lol.


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## BangandBreach (Aug 29, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> lol.



I'm waiting for replies from people who didn't read it. :3


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## Cyanide_Anima (Aug 29, 2011)

Gibson dun goofed. Again. Not a huge surprise, they've been fucking us guitarists over for a while now. =P 

"We've hired over 500 workers...blah blah blah *whaaaa*"

"we're just guilty of something they can't tell us yet.... think about that."

That's his line of defense? What a poor response. He's going on knee-jerk reactions. The press was almost laughing at him. The guy seems pretty dishonest, and his wording and body language are telling. I felt bad for Gibson at first. Not anymore if they've got this douche running things. 

What are they going to do now to save what will be left of the Gibson name after this?


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## Trembulant (Aug 29, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> No solid proof? No explanation?  Black market wood is proof enough.
> Also, a little friendly advice, people tend to take you more seriously if you put a little more effort into your spelling and syntax. Just a thought.




1. I haven't seen anywhere calling it or proving it "black market wood". 
I'm not saying it wasn't stated somewhere, so don't spin your head off your neck. Or is that just what you are calling it?

2. I didn't _personally_ claim it is all Obamas personal doing in any way.
I simply posted a take of a differing "opinion" that was not of my my own writing, and that may or may not be true or partly true but worth consideration. Considering things we have seen happening on the subject vs unions and right to work states, i don't think it's a stretch to consider it. 
I would say though that it would be ignorant not to consider it at all.

3. It seems that Gibson does in fact feel it is agenda driven. 

By the way the "Landmark" article that was claimed to be devoid of and factual reporting, was posted on Yahoo and elsewhere. (not that i'm saying yahoo is worth a shit anyway) But, some of that is statements and opinion from Gibson themselves.
Your "opinion" being devoid of any factual basis, that someone elses "opinion" is devoid of any factual basis makes your "opinion" devoid of any factual basis.

I'm just curious why people wouldn't find the way it is executed is not
questionable at all? India would actually be the one to press charges would they not? So far i haven't seen that they are even involved.

I wonder how the tone would change if say BRJ got raided and 
every ones Back Friday Run guitars were confiscated pending investigation.
Better yet, the feds came to Your door and took your guitar because it was bought from a certain company. Apparently the law says they could. 

The issue "i think" that should be on every ones minds is the policies and the government (on a whole) interjecting and projecting their way into every corner of our lives and in such a manner. 
If it doesn't concern you At All? That is a problem, Imo.

Thanks for the friendly grammar advice, and as always a friendly reminder where to stick it. 

Just a Thought.

Some things for people to "_consider_". If a person can muster some awareness whatsoever, or actually gives a shit about their life and how it can be affected.


The 2009 raid concerned wood imported from Madagascar, which the Justice Department maintains was obtained in violation of Madagascan law. Gibson says in the company&#8217;s press release, that it &#8220;has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government and these materials, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated.&#8221;

This year&#8217;s raid seems to be about wood from India. The Justice Department &#8220;has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department&#8217;s interpretation of a law in India,&#8221; Gibson explains. &#8220;This action,&#8221; the company hastens to point out, &#8220;was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.&#8221;

In other words, if the U.S. government thinks a U.S. company has violated a foreign law in the course of importing wood products, it then charges (or at least raids) that company under the Lacey Act, confiscating the company&#8217;s property and fighting tooth and nail to retain it. This happens whether or not the United States&#8217; interpretation of the law agrees with the foreign country&#8217;s interpretation of it and whether or not the foreign country has made a formal request to the U.S. government to charge the company with a violation of its law.

Thus, on top of all the unconstitutional environmental laws the federal government enforces, it is now attempting to enforce, at its own discretion and in excruciating detail, all other foreign countries&#8217; environmental laws, even when those countries do not believe their laws have been violated.

Given this policy&#8217;s negative effects on Americans&#8217; liberties and livelihoods, we may all be strumming the blues soon &#8212; probably on guitars made in countries with less overbearing governments than the one that presumes to lead the free world.

---------------

Another post from another forum.
THE GIBSON RAIDS -- SOME FACTS - Discussion Forums - Banjo Hangout


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] Gibson&#8217;s prior Madagascar ebony and rosewood issue of the November, 2009 raid is one thing, but this new problem (August 24, 2011 raids on 4 locations) with Indian rosewood and ebony fingerboard blanks is another. It seems that India has regulations banning wood exports of anything over 6mm thickness unless it&#8217;s been worked beyond simply &#8220;sawn wood&#8221; inside their country. But it&#8217;s not possible to have India process fingerboard blanks any further into a slotted, shaped, inlaid and bound form, and the Indian Ministry of Trade is O.K. with that since the fingerboards aren&#8217;t raw lumber and actually have been worked on as far as reasonable. But the U.S. government is insisting that not going all the way makes the blanks &#8220;sawn wood&#8221; and thus illegal to export according to Indian law even though Indian authorities are fine with fingerboard blanks! Additionally, there&#8217;s been some understandable confusion with appropriate tariff code numbers; and also with having the boards drop-shipped from India to a broker and then a storage facility while being invoiced by LMII, especially since Gibson and not LMII are taking ultimate delivery. It&#8217;s bureaucratic harassment and abusive enforcement by agencies with almost total power and less than total understanding of their own regs.
LMII has done everything possible to establish conformance with the law and provide all documents, paper trails, chain of custody evidence, etc. But now they&#8217;re justifiably worried that big white trucks and heavily armed agents will show up unannounced at their address, a scenario they might not be able to survive. Even though the U.S. instrument industry accounts for but 1% of wood use here, they seem to be getting disproportionately targeted no matter how much such harassment might endanger the industry&#8217;s survival or how many jobs could be lost.
If these charges hold up, then virtually all Indian ebony and rosewood fingerboard blanks used in the entire industry are illegal, and everyone&#8217;s wood inventories and instruments would be liable to seizure and harsh penalties. In fact, the same would apply to all guitar woods over 6mm thick originating in India. So, I&#8217;d imagine that all the big dogs are watching this very closely &#8211; as goes Gibson, so goes the whole industry. The U.S. government is quickly making it increasingly difficult for small as well as large businesses to survive rampant over-regulation.
(Private message me your email address and will send attachments of the full search warrant affidavit and Gibson&#8217;s official press release response.)
What can we do to revise badly written and unworkable regulations, and stop increasingly abusive enforcement? Let upcoming electoral candidates know there&#8217;s a very serious problem that&#8217;s quickly endangering a lot of domestic businesses and killing formerly healthy small international sales, as well as negatively impacting all musicians who travel out of the country. If this could become a campaign issue which highlights some of the deeply flawed and over-regulated current federal policies and could gain public support, it&#8217;s possible to change things.
Much of the problem has nothing at all to do with material from protected plant and animal species, but more to do with bureaucratic and regulatory demands involving non-listed species and costs that are impossibly complicated and unnecessary. In the case of genuine vintage and antique instruments (and many other non-instrument products) current enforcement practices are really nothing more than permission for federal agencies to vandalize and destroy priceless and irreplaceable objects, harass legitimate businesses, musicians, and collectors, and block many traditional exchanges between cultures.
To address a few points which seem to be causing confusion:
1) The issue isn&#8217;t at all about &#8220;sawed Indian ebony logs with paperwork identified as finger boards&#8221;. It&#8217;s about fingerboard blanks, and whether or not they can be considered a product involving enough native labor to satisfy the export laws of India. It&#8217;s also about a wrong (but closely related) tariff code being entered on only SOME of the paperwork.
2) What&#8217;s an acceptable product? As the agent himself pointed out in Gibson&#8217;s search warrant affidavit, there&#8217;s a distinction between a &#8220;fingerboard&#8221; (an unfretted wood blank of rough size) and a &#8220;fretboard&#8221; (which is slotted and contains fret wire). If so, then those are two different products, and as such it&#8217;s possible to have a fingerboard blank as distinguished from simply &#8220;sawn wood&#8221; &#8211; adding slots, wires, inlays, shaping and binding would make that blank into a related but different product. In the same way, we offer flat shell blanks, veneers, Abalam® sheets, and strips made to specifications according to what their intended use is: as materials which may or may not be remanufactured/incorporated into other types of finished products such as inlays, guitars, jewelry, furniture, fishing lures, and so on. Similarly, plywood is imported as a product unto itself without it needing to be in another and more final form such as furniture, boxes, or whatever.
To insist, as the U.S. agencies seem to be doing, that materials from India must be in their ultimate retail form is insane, especially in light of the Indian government not interpreting their own regs that way or insisting on such nonsense. 
3) Compelling U.S. citizens to obey foreign laws also isn&#8217;t the issue. The Lacey Act assumes that other entities (both foreign and domestic) know best how to manage their respective plant and animal resources, and it attempts to honor those regulations whether they be tribal, regional, state, federal, or foreign. Gibson&#8217;s ebony from India is being challenged on the basis of how our agencies interpret the laws of India, regardless of how India herself interprets them.
4) In applying for and accepting most federal permits (such as the USFWS Import/Export Permit), the document specifically states that by signing you have agreed to have authorities examine at any time they wish your premises, paperwork, and inventory. So it&#8217;s not an issue of unreasonable search and seizure.
What's confusing is that in the search warrant affidavit Agent Rayfield goes to some length in distinguishing an unslotted "fretboard" from a slotted and fretted "fingerboard" (Para. 13) as found on a finished instrument, and later (para. 22) distinguishes HS 9209.92.00 as "finished parts of musical instruments".
He also mentions (Para. 13) that "importers and exporters have sometimes referred to the sawn pieces of wood intended to be manufactured into fretboards as 'fingerboards' or 'fingerboard blanks'". But he contends that even though these may be informally referred to as "fingerboards" they're actually no more than "sawn wood" and being over 6mm in thickness are "sawn logs" (Para. 19 and 25) and thus a prohibited HS 4407 item (Para. 12).
So at issue is whether or not "fingerboards" exceeding 6mm are "finished parts for musical instruments" as would be allowed under HS 9209.92.00. If not, the argument is that they're "sawn logs" and illegal. 


[/FONT]


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 29, 2011)

...Orb?


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## thedonal (Aug 30, 2011)

BangandBreach said:


> Breaking news, Apparently the seized guitars are being funneled to Mexican Cartels. This is pretty heavy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's very, very good.


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## Church2224 (Aug 30, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> ...Orb?



He got the permaban unfortunately...kinda liked the guy.


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## chronocide (Aug 30, 2011)

He asked for his account to be closed, to be fair.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Aug 30, 2011)

Church2224 said:


> He got the permaban unfortunately...kinda liked the guy.


 
I know. That was my clever way of saying "tl:dr."

Not as clever as I thought I was, it seems .


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## USMarine75 (Aug 30, 2011)

You could always buy a guitar made of composite wood... nothing illegal there... although, it does kind of smell like ground-up caribou, but other than that...


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## Trembulant (Aug 30, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> ...Orb?




That's good company, i'll take that as a compliment. Though i wouldn't purport to put words in his mouth. He may disagree.

The point of my argument and why it get's into politics is because firstly. This issue is about politics - not in as much in a left/right way but in it's core.

The reason someone would call out the current president for example on something like this is not because he personally went down and kicked in Gibsons door, but because these kind of ideals are very much ideals held and even promoted in Washington period, it seems every apparent to me, and too a lot of other people. Besides this Is the politics/current events section. And this kind of thing should be held under scrutiny no matter who is President or in Government.

The main reason i objected is because in a lot of ways the immediate reaction here and in the Ops first thread in the post is Not Proven True At All at this point. And the pack follows along to lean instantly toward Gibson being the criminal - that they were instantly guilty right from the start! Not that anyone really had any Real knowledge about any of the facts either way.

The truth of it is, the government and the policies they are making and the way they are enforcing them is borderline criminal sometimes (i think). If anything it's criminal in the way that this is The United States and questionably adverse to our Constitution. The Whole idea of the United States was to be free, to be free of the Government coming into your life and seizing your business like some fucking gestapo, for one. 
They aren't producing cocaine for fucks sake.

I don't know if that means much to people anymore or not. I know it means a lot to those who are out fighting wars the probably don't particularly care to be in. I know it means a lot to people who migrate here to maybe have the chance at a better life from where they were previous. I've had these conversations with these people, and in a lot of ways they are more proud to be an American than a typical American. I also hear their concern on some of the things they are seeing here now and they think it's pretty grim.

By example, when you have someone who grows up in the communist Soviet Union saying it's not looking good and that they see similarities on how that kind of thing starts happening. It makes you have to wonder and it's time to start opening your eyes. I know it can be hard to fathom or care as much when your younger and maybe think that it's not a big deal. Especially when it's being trained on you in the last few decades (very heavily) to accept it. I can totally see the difference now days. Believe me there is a difference in the mindset, and it's noticeably very hard to reason against with common sense anymore.

The point is that some people might say, what's the big deal. It IS a big deal, that's the problem. The fact that some one would think that it's not without reservation is a problem.

We should obey the law of course but when the laws become a complete dominance over your ever single move, In America, that is a problem.
If left unchecked it can get out of hand in the blink of an eye. Where in the next decade what we had will be no more. It's proven thought history over and over.

My points are not to _argue_, but possibly to illuminate or at least offer something other than the mob mentality to be instantly jump to conclusion without evidence or looking at the big picture without regard to objectivity or truth.

I thought musicians were supposed to be open minded 

We all can point fingers all day long but it doesn't Do anything, the only real thing that matters is working together to keep what we have, or it will fail quickly.

People can blow it off all day long - it's a shame, but whatever, it will hit them like a ton of bricks later. If even one person begins to think or takes a step back and starts thinking more, then it's worth it to me to type all this shit out and have the rest of the people bash it or ignore it.


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## chronocide (Aug 30, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> By example, when you have someone who grows up in the communist Soviet Union saying it's not looking good and that they see similarities on how that kind of thing starts happening. It makes you have to wonder



All that should make you wonder about is their sanity, I reckon. That's an utterly mental comparison to draw. The almost militant economic liberalism of the US, even if tiny gains are being made by those who sit marginally closer to the centre, but still well to the right, cannot be sensibly painted as even the most tentative beginnings of a slide towards communist economics. I'd struggle to maintain my manners and not laugh were someone to say such a thing to me.

Gibson should certainly be considered innocent until proven guilty. Though it's difficult not to speculate, and I don't think people can be blamed for having some skepticism regarding the practices of massive businesses. Sadly, history often suggests we should.

I also think it's worth having a great deal of skepticism for any accusation made by people with rather pronounced vested interests about the current administration having forced/allowed this to happen, especially if those paint them as lefties and socialists, as those are lies.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Aug 30, 2011)

^Yup.

Yeah, that whole comparison shit was an enormous non-sequitur. Your analogies aren't analogous Trem. 

Another nearly incoherent diatribe by Trembulant.

We are open-mined. But not gullible fools.


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## Trembulant (Aug 30, 2011)

chronocide said:


> All that should make you wonder about is their sanity, I reckon. That's an utterly mental comparison to draw. The almost militant economic liberalism of the US, even if tiny gains are being made by those who sit marginally closer to the centre, but still well to the right, cannot be sensibly painted as even the most tentative beginnings of a slide towards communist economics. I'd struggle to maintain my manners and not laugh were someone to say such a thing to me.
> 
> Gibson should certainly be considered innocent until proven guilty. Though it's difficult not to speculate, and I don't think people can be blamed for having some skepticism regarding the practices of massive businesses. Sadly, history often suggests we should.
> 
> I also think it's worth having a great deal of skepticism for any accusation made by people with rather pronounced vested interests about the current administration having forced/allowed this to happen, especially if those paint them as lefties and socialists, as those are lies.




Ok.

Like i said it would be lost on some. I think it makes one of the most prominent and truthful points in this thread.

Your free to disagree and i know some would/will. As you don't apparently live here, it doesn't really matter to me. Your free to your opinion, but as an an "enormous non sector" as Cyanide_Anima put it who cares right.

Though with America being made up of entirely immigrants at one point or another and with the military being a somewhat large amount of people. I don't see how Cyanide_Anima could say that and it be considered valid.  As well as offering nothing in counter to prove wrong the other 99 percent of my post and add nothing but ad hominem.


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## chronocide (Aug 30, 2011)

Your post wasn't lost on me, I simply don't agree. I didn't respond to any of the rest of your points at length, because firstly, much of it was a bit rambling and said little, and also because as you say, I don't live in the US, and I don't really find myself concerned much by the raid of a single US business as I don't feel it's indicative of any trend. I felt the remark about Soviet Russia warranted a response however because it was so preposterous.



> Your free to your opinion, but as an an "enormous non sector" as Cyanide_Anima put it who cares right



This makes no sense.



> Though with America being made up of entirely immigrants at one point or another and with the military being a somewhat large amount of people. I don't see how Cyanide_Anima could say that and it be considered valid.



And this seems to be unrelated to anything said?

There was also no ad hominen present in the above posts.


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## Trembulant (Aug 30, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Your post wasn't lost on me, I simply don't agree. I didn't respond to any of the rest of your points at length, because firstly, much of it was a bit rambling and said little, and also because as you say, I don't live in the US, and I don't really find myself concerned much by the raid of a single US business as I don't feel it's indicative of any trend. I felt the remark about Soviet Russia warranted a response however because it was so preposterous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm sorry you don't understand. It couldn't be more precise in my delivery and the meaning it encompasses, i look at the big picture and i try to actually be as precise as i can to explain it, because while it's not complex, it is complex to explain to someone who would immediately disagree just because of an avatar or what they think of someone else based on a pre conceived notion about who or how someone is. For example if i say i don't like someone or something that the reader likes, often instantly someone thinks they know you and that everything else you say is void. I don't. 

So it may take some thinking about the meaning to get it. I don't think that Cyanide made much sense, because the premise of the "diatribe" was lost on him, and maybe you. My analogies were analogous. Weather he "gets" it or not. 

The non-_sector_ part was used some what tongue in cheek in that sentence as to mean your not a part of it (an American dealing with American issues in America - ergo _sector_) making your disagreement irrelevant to me for the most part, though i consider peoples opinions you just made no good case against it.

The part about Soviet Russia, well it happened in conversation with my boss who grew up in Soviet Russia, and he explained it very well. Pointless to try and explain but someone who thinks about it may figure it out. It's fairly obvious to me. In short we are looking less and less like a free country every day and people seem to accept it. If that doesn't make any sense i can't explain it further.

The ad hominem _i feel_ was him discounting my entire post and calling it an incoherent diatribe because he couldn't figure it out and instead just alludes that it's pointless or stupid. Yeah i think that fits to a degree, but i guess it's not used well.
Maybe i could call it something else, i don't know, like a shitty argument. 

One part in my post as an example for explanation of the difference between a born American vs someone who comes here of their free will for a reason in this case, My bosses reason being for more freedom and a better life. It explains to a degree why he sees that it is in jeopardy because of peoples mentality these days and what they are wiling to accept. That somehow makes my entire "diatribe" irrelevant?

I suppose it would be easier to understand had he explained it to you. 
You know, you or Cyanide not being born and raised in Soviet Russia (i'm guessing) it's possible he has a better perspective and could make some points that you could only assume?

The frikin main point is, Gibson hasn't been found of any factual wrong doing and or at least hasn't been Charged with anything.

For people to accept that as a non issue, and then so also accuse first is fucked up. (Seems you at least agreed with that part). Doesn't seem like others do or did.

But it absolutely is very indicative of the mentality of some people and how it totally conflicts with what America is about.
Besides the fact that the _law_ in itself is questionable. 

So in those regards my "diatribe" does make sense. And neither have you both addressed it but rather just toss off on what you don't get, or the parts that i'm sorry i don't have a professional editor for. Sue me.


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## chronocide (Aug 31, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> I'm sorry you don't understand. It couldn't be more precise in my delivery and the meaning it encompasses, i look at the big picture and i try to actually be as precise as i can to explain it, because while it's not complex, it is complex to explain to someone who would immediately disagree just because of an avatar or what they think of someone else based on a pre conceived notion about who or how someone is. For example if i say i don't like someone or something that the reader likes, often instantly someone thinks they know you and that everything else you say is void. I don't.



Good condescension. As a general rule, I wouldn't assume that someone only thinks your post is rambling because they don't understand it. It's rambling because it isn't concise, doesn't drive any points and the phrasing and pacing is poor. It isn't rambling because I can't keep up with your astounding intellect.



> So it may take some thinking about the meaning to get it. I don't think that Cyanide made much sense, because the premise of the "diatribe" was lost on him, and maybe you. My analogies were analogous. Weather he "gets" it or not.



The analogy he meant, that of Soviet Russia, isn't analogous, however much you might want it to be. It's hysterical nonsense. It was funny enough that I felt compelled to facebook my Russian born, Russian Politics PhD chum that I'd read such nonsense. Maybe he'll tell me it's accurate and I'm an idiot mind you, we'll see.



> The ad hominem _i feel_ was him discounting my entire post and calling it an incoherent diatribe because he couldn't figure it out and instead just alludes that it's pointless or stupid. Yeah i think that fits to a degree, but i guess it's not used well.
> Maybe i could call it something else, i don't know, like a shitty argument.



Well I don't read his post as doing that. If it HAD, that still doesn't constitute ad hominem. That quite specifically has to be an attack on your person in order to discount your argument. Calling the argument itself stupid is not an ad hominem. Good job on managing to crowbar that arrogant condescension in there again  



> One part in my post as an example for explanation of the difference between a born American vs someone who comes here of their free will for a reason in this case, My bosses reason being for more freedom and a better life. It explains to a degree why he sees that it is in jeopardy because of peoples mentality these days and what they are wiling to accept. That somehow makes my entire "diatribe" irrelevant?



I'm not sure if anyone said that that particular example made the rest of your post irrelevant? Only that I quoted it specifically because it was such a bananas comparison, and that your post as whole was call incoherent and rambling. Incidentally, had someone said "the fact you believe America is going the way of Soviet Russia makes everything else you say irrelevant" then THAT would have been ad hominem, but no one did.



> The frikin main point is, Gibson hasn't been found of any factual wrong doing and or at least hasn't been Charged with anything.



Nobody has said they are, people have treated them with suspicion, which is worryingly appropriate when dealing with massive companies, and expressed that if they are guilty, tough shit.



> So in those regards my "diatribe" does make sense. And neither have you both addressed it but rather just toss off on what you don't get, or the parts that i'm sorry i don't have a professional editor for. Sue me.



It's been explained, twice, why the rest of your post wasn't tackled. But you think it's because people can't grasp your reasoning. It isn't.


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## Trembulant (Sep 1, 2011)

Not only is my intent Not in any way meant to be condescending no matter how you take it. I stand by what i wrote.

Concentrating on how it's written grammatically or the extent my writing prows only ignores the points (which are valid and relevant, imo).
I don't claim professional writing to be in any way to be my forte.
I read worse in articles presented by supposed professionals every day.

I don't claim to be a know it all or have blazing intellect. Your assumptions 
are your own. I can read it and it makes sense, and in my opinion what i think is important about it goes ignored. I don't agree it's written so bad that it can't be understood. I do think though that you don't care to understand it and would rather patronize me and ignore what it's about. 

Done here, as it pointless to argue. It is what i see happening day to day in the world from my perspective, and others perspective i converse with. You don't agree, or care - it's fine. You haven't really stated much about the topic related to it other than criticizing my writing instead of offering a differing opinion or pointing out something for me to consider about it in return, so you offer nothing.


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## Utnapishtim (Sep 1, 2011)

There an interesting article on NPR here, which covers both the 2009 and 2011 raids. The article also includes some comments from the Martin CEO. For example:


> And while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."


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## daemon barbeque (Sep 1, 2011)

It is too early to come to any conclusion, but Gibson did it before, and they might be done it again. I am no way supporter of any guitar or wood company who shamelessly piss on natural sources to make profit. I don't care if their guitars are awesome, legendary or whatever. They had good wood and supplies in the past, and that was in the past. deal with it.
If Gibson did use illegal wood, they should be punished. There is nothing more to discuss about it. Neither the amounts of workers, nor the loss of profit, the awesomeness of Gibson or their legendary status. Fear mongering over vintage guitars etc is no helping the case either.


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## Demiurge (Sep 1, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> If Gibson did use illegal wood, they should be punished. There is nothing more to discuss about it. Neither the amounts of workers, nor the loss of profit, the awesomeness of Gibson or their legendary status. Fear mongering over vintage guitars etc is no helping the case either.



Indeed. If Gibson is guilty of what is accused, then they aren't some sort of Rand-ian hero that supposedly puts excellence above laws-that-govern-the-weak-and-bind-the-strong as the debate is moving towards. No, they're just a company that is building a reputation for cutting corners, that has apparently been caught... wait for it... cutting more corners!!!


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## Slunk Dragon (Sep 4, 2011)

This whole story is absolutely dark and evil, I just can't fathom why our own government, who is trillions of dollars in debt, insists on bullying our own companies.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Sep 5, 2011)

You have got to be SHITTING me. Henry (now) Douchekiewicz on Alex Jones' show? I just threw up a little. I have no respect left for Gibson. Fuck 'em. Henry needs to be fired. You had to go on THAT jackass's show? For fuck's sake.

I knew he was part of the Tin-foil Hat Brigade. Gibson is done now. He's sending the name down in a shitstorm of sensationalist media coverage. What's next, he goes on Rush's and Glen Beck's show? 

"These are arrogant people who just didn't care, ya know, about anyone there."

It's not the feds' job to pander to your often disgruntled employees, Henry. 

"We don't keep records going back decades... on the specifics of... of...."

Gotta love good old AJ. He's good at cutting people off before they incriminate themselves, or say something that shows how lax their record keeping has been. He's also just plain good at cutting people off. The more Gibson's CEO flaps his gums the more guilty he appears. It's almost as if Tea Partiers and far-right wingnuts purposely bend and break laws so when they get nailed they can play the victim.

...and blame Obama/liberals for everything, of course. Obama is as liberal as my pale ass is African.

"It's a giant power-grab. and it looks like the US is the only country acting like this with a renewable resource like wood!"

"...that we would be better of manufacturing guitars in madagascar."

Nice context provided! I'm sure the qualifier for that statement was that "If they continue their current illegal business practices they would be better off..."

How do you respond to such obtuse statements? LOL.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Sep 6, 2011)

I mean... for the love of a non-existant god... AJ did this unspeakable act to an innocent iPad! 



whattheeffinfuck? His comparisons and analogies are hilarious delusional projections. 

"The army's own report admitted 'they' were raping children and torturing people with battery acid..."

That guy can shit out nonsensical verbose statements like no one else.

I've started an ongoing joke at my work. Whenever someone talks about something being true and it's obviously not, or they cannot reproduce any actual evidence to support what they claim I shout "I've got the documents!" or "It's admitted! On record!" in AJ's Wilfred Brimley-like voice. Gotta love how he pronounces things when he's excited and drops his radio voice. Especially with the weird "b" sounds he does. hahaha.


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## vansinn (Sep 7, 2011)

Damn, it's difficult making a quallified opinion. I'll await the court outcome.

I find post #52 extremely interesting, as the linked document, which is the base for the search warrents, seems to clearly state that Indian law explicitely states exporting the two woods in question is prohibited, regardless of Indial workers treating the woods or not.

This is in contrast to the Gibson case, which is generally about the Lazy Act, and steared into whether or not said woods were treated by Indian or Americal workers.

It's absolute possible I've misread something, and as such you have my appols for not fine-reading all relevant info. Gosh, there's so much..


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## Utnapishtim (Sep 8, 2011)

Fretboard Journal has a podcast episode about this (link), which covers both the implications for manufacturers and for players. The connection between the 2009 and 2011 raids was a surprise to me, and IMO goes a long way to explain why the second raid happened. The takeaway message for players is not to worry if you're travelling domestically (unless you're smuggling drugs in your guitar!), and to get a beater guitar for international trips (if your main guitar contains problematic materials).

In addition FurnitureToday has an article from the POV of furniture makers, which also touches upon the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC). The FSC has released this statement regarding the raid.


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## Trembulant (Sep 8, 2011)

Michelle Obama may have unwittingly violated The Lacey Act of 1900, as amended in 2008. You see, on Aug. 30, Mrs. Obama presented France's first lady, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, with a Gibson Hummingbird acoustic guitar that has a rosewood fret board. 

Apparently, some White House or State Department staffer learned the former high-fashion model, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, is also a professional singer and songwriter. She accompanies herself by playing the guitar. So, at U.S. taxpayer expense, the French first lady was given a Gibson guitar. While the gesture was thoughtful, it may have put Mrs. Obama and the American taxpayer in violation of The Lacey Act.

According to The Wall Street Journal, owning a guitar made out of certain woods could trigger a raid by federal agents, even if a prior owner or manufacturer obtained the guitar years ago. Guitar owners are advised to have complete documentation proving the age of their guitars. On top of confiscation, violations of The Lacey Act can include both criminal and civil penalties. 

In August, federal agents raided Gibson guitar plants in Nashville and Memphis, Tenn., looking for illegally sourced wood. In fact, that was the second raid of Gibson's Nashville facility. In 2009, the DOJ raided Gibson Guitar Inc., looking for rosewood imported from Madagascar. But, according to Gibson chairman and CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, the company has yet to be charged and the $1 million dollars of confiscated rosewood has not been returned to Gibson. 

Gibson filed a civil suit asking for the return of its property which, according to legal documents filed by the Government of Madagascar, was obtained legally. Given these last two raids in 2011, one might think the DOJ is trying to put Gibson Guitar out of business. Of course, Gibson does have the option of moving its entire operation overseas. Apparently, the DOJ missed the White House memo about the need to keep American jobs in America. 

But the DOJ contends the rosewood in question was imported from India without first being finished by Indian workers  a violation of Indian law. In 2008, the left-wing environmental groups and labor unions pushed the timber and wood product amendments to the Lacey Act through the Democrat-controlled Congress  the same organizations that helped Mr. Obama to the Oval Office later that year. 

If Mrs. Obama knowingly violated The Lacey Act, she could be subject to a $250,000 fine and up to five years in prison. If she unknowingly violated The Lacey Act, the penalties are reduced to $100,000 and one year in prison.

But don't hold your breath.

_______________________

Even if Gibson is found "guilty". To me, the Law questionably could be considered Bullshit in the first place. Especially if they are going after companies on discrepancies and technicalities. The Bullshit that they want to continue to institute that usually ends up screwing no one but us in the end. That's what some people just don't want to consider. Pretty Sad. 

So some wood should be illegal because it is not finished right, or is the wrong shape or doesn't hold a certain title for it's use. Ok.

Well i think Booze should be illegal then, why is it not? It actually Kills people and destroys lives daily. I'm not sure many planks of rosewood are actually taking peoples lives. Where's the Justice there? Where's the Department of Justice when you need them? Oh, Fucking off with American business, i see. Great. Glad more of our Tax money is getting put to good use.

In fact,
Let's regulate All wood products, why should anyone have more than 1 guitar? They don't _need_ them, one guitar is plenty for anyone. All it does is put a strain of the worlds wood supply. Take all but one away (and fine people for each over the allotted amount of one) and recycle that wood. The greedy bastards are so inconsiderate that the would horde all that wood that could be used somewhere else. Take em away and fine em.

What else could we regulate. I know, Children! Poor people that can't afford to have and take care of children shouldn't be allowed to have them, after all all it does is put a strain on the taxpayer. Contributes to crime and more money spent on government by the people who actually pay taxes, you know the ones that aren't on welfare because they have 5 kids and can't afford even one.

What else. I mean let's regulate everything then and get shit in order damnit, Justice!


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## SirMyghin (Sep 8, 2011)

> According to The Wall Street Journal, owning a guitar made out of certain woods could trigger a raid by federal agents, even if a prior owner or manufacturer obtained the guitar years ago. Guitar owners are advised to have complete documentation proving the age of their guitars. On top of confiscation, violations of The Lacey Act can include both criminal and civil penalties.



If stuff like this has any validity it is damned ridiculous. End users should not be responsible in the least.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 8, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Michelle Obama may have unwittingly violated The Lacey Act of 1900, as amended in 2008. You see, on Aug. 30, Mrs. Obama presented France's first lady, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, with a Gibson Hummingbird acoustic guitar that has a rosewood fret board.


 
OH SHIT. SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT.


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## The Munk (Sep 8, 2011)

Gibson Guitar CEO Says Feds Told Him Problems Would


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## Guitarman700 (Sep 8, 2011)

That guy says a lot of things, and I honestly wouldn't trust him farther that I could throw him at this point.


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## Sephael (Sep 8, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> If stuff like this has any validity it is damned ridiculous. End users should not be responsible in the least.


no different than receiving stolen goods.


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## BigPhi84 (Sep 8, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Even if Gibson is found "guilty". To me, the Law questionably could be considered Bullshit in the first place. Especially if they are going after companies on discrepancies and technicalities. The Bullshit that they want to continue to institute that usually ends up screwing no one but us in the end. That's what some people just don't want to consider. Pretty Sad.
> 
> So some wood should be illegal because it is not finished right, or is the wrong shape or doesn't hold a certain title for it's use. Ok.
> 
> ...




orb451?


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## SirMyghin (Sep 8, 2011)

Sephael said:


> no different than receiving stolen goods.



Not entirely true in this case, a lot of these endangerred wood laws are new, and if they plan to take any guitar with the wood, just because you don't know exact details, is ridiculous. Guitars are going to start coming with full documentation at this rate, which while good gets a bit silly. It would be like someone taking away a brazillian rosewood necked PRS as it has the wood, despite the fact Paul was known to have a stockpile before it went illegal.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Sep 8, 2011)

You know, Warmoth took Brazilian Rosewood off of the options list on their website fairly recently. I've wondered if it's because they ran out of their pre-ban stock, or because it's just too big a pain to deal with now.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 8, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Well i think Booze should be illegal then, why is it not? It actually Kills people and destroys lives daily. I'm not sure many planks of rosewood are actually taking peoples lives.



Rosewood is actually a pretty toxic wood and wood workers have something like 40% higher likelyhood of lung cancer.



Edit:
I should note I'm not for banning wood and whatnot.


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## SirMyghin (Sep 8, 2011)

^^^

Working wood and wood dust itself has been linked with increases in cancer. Infact I think typing this message is increasing my cancer risk somehow.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 9, 2011)

Was your keyboard made in China?


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## Trembulant (Sep 9, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Sephael* 

 
_no different than receiving stolen goods._



SirMyghin said:


> Not entirely true in this case, a lot of these endangerred wood laws are new, and if they plan to take any guitar with the wood, just because you don't know exact details, is ridiculous. Guitars are going to start coming with full documentation at this rate, which while good gets a bit silly. It would be like someone taking away a brazillian rosewood necked PRS as it has the wood, despite the fact Paul was known to have a stockpile before it went illegal.




It is true. It's contraband. 


Check out some sources: here and here. Simply possessing the timber product can make you a felon, regardless of whether or not you were involved in the harvesting, were the original importer, or had received any information regarding the source of the timber product.


Excerpt From Article: 
*Cross The Border, Lose Your Bentley; The Lacey Act Applies To Automobiles, Too*

Think thats far-fetched? Ask the woman doing two years in federal prison for accepting lobsters in clear plastic bags how far-fetched it is. 


Another question,
Why has the Environmental Investigation Agency, a group funded by progressive billionaire George Soros, been lobbying the Justice Department so hard to go after Gibson?


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## SirMyghin (Sep 9, 2011)

Glad I live in Canada is all I have to say.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Sep 10, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sephael*
> 
> 
> ...



LULZ. I facepalmed so hard I nearly broke my wrist.


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## Utnapishtim (Sep 10, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sephael* It is true. It's contraband.
> 
> 
> ...


Are there actually any examples of "end-users" having their gear confiscated and being charged with violating the Lacey act? All the examples that I've seen so far have involved businesses importing stuff that was charged with being in violation of the Lacey act, or amounts to scaremongering based on speculation.




Trembulant said:


> Think that&#8217;s far-fetched? Ask the woman doing two years in federal prison for accepting lobsters in clear plastic bags how far-fetched it is.


Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, nor do I have any expertise in anything related to law.

That case is a lot more complicated than this website lets on. For instance, the initial trial was only initiated after the US government had contacted Honduran government and confirmed that the shipment of lobsters violated their laws. The pre-trail (which was held to establish the eligibility of the Honduran laws) included positive testimony from Liliana Patricia Paz, "the highest-ranking legal official in the office of the Secretary-General of the Honduran Ministry". Based on this the US government initiated action. Also, it's worth noting that the ban on the use of plastic containers was due to a desire to prevent large-scale exports, while size-requirements is another regulation typically used to ensure that the population is sustainable. In addition, the harvesting or destruction of lobster eggs is prohibited. Hence it is hardly surprising that violating these regulations would run one afoul of the Lacey act: 


> In early March of 1999 NMFS agents seized the lobster shipment ... based upon the director general&#8217;s assurances that the lobsters had been exported in violation of Honduran law. Over the next few months, NMFS agents communicated with Honduran officials about the Honduran laws and the legality of the seized lobster shipment. ... The [Honduran] minister, the vice minister, the director of legal services, the director of legal affairs, the secretary general of the SAG, the director general of the DIGEPESCA, and the legal advisor for the Servicio Nacional de Sanidad Agropecuaria (SENASA) [FN3] confirmed that the lobsters had been exported illegally without first being inspected and processed. Furthermore, the Honduran officials confirmed that there was a 5.5- inch size limit for lobster tails and that all catches had to be reported to Honduran authorities. The Honduran officials provided certified copies of the laws in question. In September of 1999 NMFS agents inspected the lobster shipment that had been seized earlier in the year. The inspection confirmed that the seized lobsters were packed in bulk plastic bags without being processed and revealed that a significant number had a tail length that was less than the 5.5 inches required by the Honduran size limit restriction. In addition, many of the lobsters were egg-bearing or had their eggs removed.



However, the Honduran government subsequently changed its mind on this issue and invalidated the previous law, which obviously caused trouble in the US court. The court ultimately found that the fact that the law had changed did not invalidate the fact that the Lobsters _were_ obtained in violation of foreign law, as required by the Lacey Act. Nor did they consider the subsequent change in Honduran to be valid grounds for overturning a ruling based on then valid Honduran law:


> When ... a foreign government changes its original position regarding the validity of its laws after a defendant has been convicted, our courts are not required to revise their prior determinations of foreign law solely upon the basis of the foreign government's new position. There must be some finality with representations of foreign law by foreign governments. Given the inevitable political changes that take place in foreign governments, if courts were required to maintain compliance with a foreign government's position, we would be caught up in the endless tasks of redetermining foreign law.



In addition, the website claims that Huang was unaware of the law, and had no criminal intend, but AFAIK this does not fly in criminal courts. American courts holds that ignorance of the law is no defence (_ignorantia juris non excusat_), and while intend may play a role in the exact nature of the conviction, AFAIK it does change the fact that a violation has taken place (e.g. homicide vs. manslaughter).

All in all, while one can disagree with the subsequent action taken by the US court in upholding the now invalid Honduran law, one can hardly fault them for prosecuting the defendants in the first place!


Sources: 
JR Schmertz, "FOREIGN LAW, PROOF OF", International Law Update, Volume 9, Chapter 4 (April 2003).
United States v. McNab, 2003 WL 1419848 (11th Cir. March 21, 2003).





Trembulant said:


> Why has the Environmental Investigation Agency, a group funded by progressive billionaire George Soros, been lobbying the Justice Department so hard to go after Gibson?


Because they believe that Gibson has been breaking the law?


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## Trembulant (Sep 10, 2011)

Utnapishtim said:


> Are there actually any examples of "end-users" having their gear confiscated and being charged with violating the Lacey act? All the examples that I've seen so far have involved businesses importing stuff that was charged with being in violation of the Lacey act, or amounts to scaremongering based on speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In regards to all of the above. I thinks it's less likely that individuals will have the feds come to their door and take their guitars than the corporations making them yes. The fact is that they "could".
I guess some people find that ok, fuck em.

As far as the lobster debacle and the point of all of this in general is merely that it is seems pretty Ridiculous. The bureaucracy is Ridiculous. 

As far as the EIA (The _EIA_ is an independent, international campaigning organization committed to investigating and exposing environmental crime.) If Gibson ends up not being prosecuted and the EIA is found to be involved then hopefully they are able to sue the shit out of them to the fullest extent possible.


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## Utnapishtim (Sep 10, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> In regards to all of the above. I thinks it's less likely that individuals will have the feds come to their door and take their guitars than the corporations making them yes.


Look, I'm not asking for examples of federal agents visiting private citizens to confiscate gear. 

I'm asking if any gear has in fact been confiscated from international travellers due to the Lacey act, as that has been the concern among end-users (see e.g. the many articles posted in this thread, including the Bentley one you posted). Are there actually any examples of that having happened?




Trembulant said:


> The fact is that they "could".


They "could"?
Is that a fancy way of saying that they couldn't?




Trembulant said:


> As far as the lobster debacle and the point of all of this in general is merely that it is seems pretty Ridiculous. The bureaucracy is Ridiculous.


If you have to misrepresent the case in order to make it look ridiculous, then it probably isn't as ridiculous as you claim. I invite people to compare the description of the case you offered with the actual court-case, and decide which is more ridiculous.




Trembulant said:


> As far as the EIA (The _EIA_ is an independent, international campaigning organization committed to investigating and exposing environmental crime.) If Gibson ends up not being prosecuted and the EIA is found to be involved then hopefully they are able to sue the shit out of them to the fullest extent possible.


I forgot to ask this in my previous response, but what evidence do you have that the EIA has in fact been "_lobbying the Justice Department so hard to go after Gibson_"?


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## Trembulant (Sep 10, 2011)

Utnapishtim said:


> Look, I'm not asking for examples of federal agents visiting private citizens to confiscate gear.
> 
> I'm asking if any gear has in fact been confiscated from international travellers due to the Lacey act, as that has been the concern among end-users (see e.g. the many articles posted in this thread, including the Bentley one you posted). Are there actually any examples of that having happened?



Maybe it will maybe it won't, neither you or i can say can we? I never said it's _going_ to happen. What's your point?



> They "could"?
> Is that a fancy way of saying that they couldn't?


What?  What does that even mean..No it's fancy way of saying the sky is blue, wtf are you talking about.




> If you have to misrepresent the case in order to make it look ridiculous, then it probably isn't as ridiculous as you claim. I invite people to compare the description of the case you offered with the actual court-case, and decide which is more ridiculous.


What have _i_ personally misrepresented?  
And I think the court case and the reason behind it are ridiculous yes.




> I forgot to ask this in my previous response, but what evidence do you have that the EIA has in fact been "_lobbying the Justice Department so hard to go after Gibson_"?


It's a question you can search around and decide for yourself one way or the other.

Honestly what exactly is your argument? Really? There's some information. You can find for yourself and decide and make your own judgment. Mine is that it seems convoluted and ridiculous. It's Simple. Seems like you are trying to make it out that i am personally trying to deceive people or whatever. Your tripping.


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## Utnapishtim (Sep 10, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Maybe it will maybe it won't, neither you or i can say can we? I never said it's _going_ to happen. What's your point?


That peoples' worries should be based on facts, not flights of fancy. The sky is not falling as of yet.




Trembulant said:


> What?  What does that even mean..No it's fancy way of saying the sky is blue, wtf are you talking about.


I'm taking about your apparently unintended use of "scare quotes".




Trembulant said:


> What have _i_ personally misrepresented?


I apologize, that paragraph was rather poorly written. The first two 'you's were intended to refer to whoever wrote the summary you linked to, not you personally. I have no reason to believe that you actually knew the facts behind the case, nor that you intentionally misrepresented these facts.




Trembulant said:


> And I think the court case and the reason behind it are ridiculous yes.


I do not question that you believe this, nor did I question it.




Trembulant said:


> It's a question you can search around and decide for yourself one way or the other.


I did in fact search around prior to asking you, but I found only opinion pieces that were big on hyperbole but short on evidence. I found nothing that actually linked the EIA to the recent raid at the Gibson factories. If you do in fact have evidence that supports such a link, then I'd like to see it.




Trembulant said:


> Your tripping.


I wish. That would make having the flu a whole lot more fun ...


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## Trembulant (Sep 10, 2011)

Utnapishtim said:


> That peoples' worries should be based on facts, not flights of fancy. The sky is not falling as of yet.



That it's not flights of fancy is exactly what i think the post presented. 
It was stated that they "could" do that based on the law as it sits. 
I have never seen anywhere state that it "will" most certainly
happen, and i never said that myself.

You turned it into something different, i don't know. 



> RE: "amounts to scaremongering based on speculation". I'm taking about your apparently unintended use of "scare quotes".


The law states what it states so there are the facts as we are presented. Those that prosecute apparently have the upper hand in determining how that law is applied or what it encompasses. 

Since it is true that they could confiscate (any) property, that to them (the feds) is in question or in "potential" violation (and they do) and that it is described in the law basically as contraband - and the fact that contraband is illegal, until they state stipulations otherwise there doesn't seem to be any delusional "scare" factor to it.


I haven't heard yet of anyone having their guitars taken when crossing into the border no. It doesn't change the fact that they could and It doesn't mean they will or won't. It is not the question, or not my question anyway.
It just points out that they Can, as there is nothing is place that i have found that says They Can't, and so then reiterates my opinion right here and now that is it stupid weather it has happened or not. 
I'm not really worried at this point of taking a guitar across the border and having it confiscated. But i really don't care for the possibility of it for anyone.




> I do not question that you believe this, nor did I question it.


That's cool, but I didn't know what you were questioning, or couldn't figure out what your retort was exactly.

Someone prior to you "facepalmed" to it. Imo they should do it with a brick in their hand. That would actually be useful, since they offer nothing otherwise.

There seems to be just negative reaction for no apparent reason other than just because. They certainly bring nothing to the table. At least you did add to it with some details of the case and opinion for consideration.




> I did in fact search around prior to asking you, but I found only opinion pieces that were big on hyperbole but short on evidence. I found nothing that actually linked the EIA to the recent raid at the Gibson factories. If you do in fact have evidence that supports such a link, then I'd like to see it.


The sentence was pulled from an article. 
Someone made that statement, and i added it for people to look into as i am doing the same. 
I do not know how they came to that conclusion yet. But like someone pointed out earlier, the feds were probably tipped off somehow for them to go in there in the first place. Since someone brought it up in an article, it sounded like a possible or viable connection to look in to. Maybe it's speculation, or maybe they know something. It's not entirely impossible to hypothesize that the EIA was involved since that is exactly their schtick and what they do by their own mission statement. But i'm not someone who just immediately believes or disbelieves anything, or that just "facepalms" everything, that's an idiots chore.

If it turns out to never happen, and it turns out information out there is false, it doesn't matter, lol, it doesn't make talking about it or exploring the subject pointless until at least as much of the truth is actually presented as possible through the courts as evidence. It certainly wouldn't make me happy if it is true or sad if it wasn't. I'm not someone who is hell bent and in hopes that it is true so in the end i can say "i told you so" ..fuck that. 

But there Certainly is nothing wrong with discussing it. There is discussion all over the internet about it with all kinds of views on it.
I would take into consideration someones opinion who may be closer to the issue or who studies and writes about such things much more seriously than some dipshit "facepalm" moron Any Day. lol.

Anyway, Hope you feel better, the flu suck ass, especially in the summer.


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