# Why do some albums even have bad production?



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 6, 2018)

I know that "bad" production is subjective, but there are some obvious blunders.

Like Metallicas AJFA, is notorious for having barely audible bass. How was this even allowed to happen? Did the band not listen to it before everyone agreed to release it? Did the person who produced it just prefer to have the bass' volume so low?

Less popular, but IMO worse sounding, is Yngwie's War to End All Wars. Its terribly muddy sounding. The bass drum hits are barely audible and lost in the mud. Vocals are way too low in the mix. Lead guitars are extremely loud at alot of parts. Yngwie acknowledges this and has said in the past that he'd like to have the album remixed. So why was it released in the first place?

So these are just two examples where the majority of the people can agree that the production came out poorly. Tons of time and money went in to making these albums and they still come out sub-par. 

Didnt they all listen to the final product and say "hmm i cant hear the bass" or "hmm i cant hear the vocals"? 

I dont understand!


----------



## Zer01 (Jan 6, 2018)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. For example, I love the production on AJFA, while at the same time I'm glad it's never been used on anything else.

Another thing - I don't know about the Yngwie album but AJFA is 30 years old this year. Everything sounded worse the farther back you go. I can't listen to Hendrix mostly because the quality hurts my ears.


----------



## KailM (Jan 6, 2018)

AJFA is a flawless record, and Metallica's best album/best songs by far IMO. I'm not bothered a bit by the production. Yes, it could use more bass, but it is what it is. It worked that one time.

From my perspective, people are currently going crazy about production and being overly nitpicky in this modern age. For me, it's always been about the songwriting and overall quality of the arrangements. If the _song_ is good, it _is_ good.

A relatively recent example is Wintersun's Forest Seasons album. It got blasted by many people for its production. I found it to have great production, as someone who has listened to black metal and death metal for a long time. A lot of older albums in the same genre have absolutely horrendous production (see Ulver's _Nattens Madrigal_; Darkthrone's _A Blaze in the Northern Sky) -- _yet they remain magnificent albums.

This, of course, is my opinion.


----------



## PunkBillCarson (Jan 6, 2018)

I personally love the production on AJFA. It's kind of got a bit of a black metallish tinge to the way it was produced. Makes Harvester of Sorrow and Eye of the Beholder sound like they came from some barbaric land.


----------



## Splenetic (Jan 6, 2018)

Jimi's material is exceptionally recorded. Clear separation between instruments, organic as hell and dynamic as fuck. Still sounds killer to this day, better than a LOT of modern, volume-wars driven rock releases in the past two decades.


----------



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 6, 2018)

Ok i get that good and bad are subjective, but in my Yngwie example, even he admits it sound like crap so why did he release it that way in the first place?

Another album is Soilwork's Sworn to a Great Divide; theyve admitted that it sounds to thin and trebly and that they would eventually like to go back and re-mix it. So why did they release it that way in the first place?

About the Wintersun album, i think people were more upset that it took so long for them to release an album, therefore if the album wasnt 110% to their liking that they would find something to bitch about.


----------



## buriedoutback (Jan 6, 2018)

Unleash The Fury said:


> Like Metallicas AJFA, is notorious for having barely audible bass. How was this even allowed to happen? Did the band not listen to it before everyone agreed to release it? Did the person who produced it just prefer to have the bass' volume so low?



There is a video on the youtubes where the mixing engineer says it was all Lars. Lars made him turn the bass waay down (almost inaudible) and then drop it another 5db, IIRC. I wonder if he hated Jason...

I'm fighting this fight right now with mixing my buddies band. 1 guy wants an old-school black metal mix (read: no bass/low-end) and the other guy wants crazy loud cymbals and kick drum (read: he's deaf from playing with no ear protection and his car speakers have no high-end). I've been able to reach SOME middle ground with stuff, so the mix should be fairly balanced in the end. But unfortunately, this also means making crazy changes when the 1 guy is there, and then changing it back after he has gone, and lying about the change.... sounds insane/rediculous/absurd right? Metallica/the mixer shoulda done that for AJFA IMO.


----------



## buriedoutback (Jan 6, 2018)

Just to try to further address the actual question in the OP. I can only speak about my current situation. 

The short answer is; I'm a total noob at mixing, the band has no money, the 1 guy is impossible to work with, etc --- but the music is really great and there would not be an album otherwise. My mix won't be top shelf, but at least the music will be out there.


----------



## AdamMaz (Jan 6, 2018)

Subjectivity has no limit.


----------



## cip 123 (Jan 6, 2018)




----------



## feraledge (Jan 6, 2018)

Mixing is a battle of wills competing on a landscape of differing levels of qualification and vision with a bottom line of limited time and funding. Tastes differ, but between engineers, gear, members, mixers, and mastering, there’s a lot of cooks to ensure that everyone compromised and, often, no one is better off for it.


----------



## lewis (Jan 6, 2018)

another example is After The Burial albums.
LOOOVE the band but the mix always seems muffled/muddy to me. Odd odd guitar tone


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 6, 2018)

Unleash The Fury said:


> Like Metallicas AJFA, is notorious for having barely audible bass. How was this even allowed to happen? Did the band not listen to it before everyone agreed to release it? Did the person who produced it just prefer to have the bass' volume so low?


Hazing, most likely. I think that's been the story anyways. I think Lars and James are considered co-producers on that album, if memory serves. 



Unleash The Fury said:


> Less popular, but IMO worse sounding, is Yngwie's War to End All Wars. Its terribly muddy sounding. The bass drum hits are barely audible and lost in the mud. Vocals are way too low in the mix. Lead guitars are extremely loud at alot of parts. Yngwie acknowledges this and has said in the past that he'd like to have the album remixed. So why was it released in the first place?


Deadlines would be my guess. If not that, then budgetary reasons.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 6, 2018)

Zer01 said:


> Everything sounded worse the farther back you go.


Uh, no. Some of the Beatles albums sound spectacular.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 6, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Deadlines would be my guess. If not that, then budgetary reasons.



Probably the biggest reason going by OP's example. If you have artists that ADMIT their album is poorly produced, not have cases where the album is poorly produced and the artist is fine with it. 

A recent case would be the loudness war. In the case of albums like Rush's Vapor Trails or Metallica's Death Magnetic, a lot of those bands want to go for loud AF albums with almost no dynamic range. Just 3 - 5 minutes of even volume and distortion. Alex Lifeson said in an interview about Vapor Trails that it was like "a contest" to get the loudest-sounding record. Rush at least admitted their mistake and released Vapor Trails Remixed.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 6, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Probably the biggest reason going by OP's example. If you have artists that ADMIT their album is poorly produced, not have cases where the album is poorly produced and the artist is fine with it.
> 
> A recent case would be the loudness war. In the case of albums like Rush's Vapor Trails or Metallica's Death Magnetic, a lot of those bands want to go for loud AF albums with almost no dynamic range. Just 3 - 5 minutes of even volume and distortion. Alex Lifeson said in an interview about Vapor Trails that it was like "a contest" to get the loudest-sounding record. Rush at least admitted their mistake and released Vapor Trails Remixed.


VTR sounds great.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 6, 2018)

^For those curious about the difference:


----------



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 6, 2018)

^ the original version is loud as hell


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 6, 2018)

The original version is nauseating. VTR is so much better. Vapor Trails was a modern day classic, and to have it musically aborted by compressing the hell out of it was a shame. I wish more groups would go back and redo their albums like VTR.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 6, 2018)

Unleash The Fury said:


> ^ the original version is loud as hell





Spaced Out Ace said:


> The original version is nauseating. VTR is so much better. Vapor Trails was a modern day classic, and to have it musically aborted by compressing the hell out of it was a shame. I wish more groups would go back and redo their albums like VTR.



The amazing part is when you read the comments and people say they prefer the original mix BECAUSE it sounds so loud, bad, and compressed. Apparently a full dynamic mix sounds "weak."

Theres your answer as to why people do this.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 6, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The amazing part is when you read the comments and people say they prefer the original mix BECAUSE it sounds so loud, bad, and compressed. Apparently a full dynamic mix sounds "weak."
> 
> Theres your answer as to why people do this.


It sounds "weak"? Try turning up your fucking volume, you dirty rotten pricks. "Old production" is "Made to be played LOUD!" as Vinnie Vincent Invasion albums would say. Modern production methods sound shit no matter what volume they are at, whereas older albums sound great at any volume, and get better the more you crank them up.


----------



## rokket2005 (Jan 6, 2018)

Dark Side of the Moon is arguably the best sounding album of all time. You have to factor in also that all of those songs are amazing, which in turn makes it sound better. I think this is partly why I don't like Soilworks SWTAGD albums production, because beside not sounding very good, all the songs are garbage too.


----------



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 6, 2018)

rokket2005 said:


> Dark Side of the Moon is arguably the best sounding album of all time. You have to factor in also that all of those songs are amazing, which in turn makes it sound better. I think this is partly why I don't like Soilworks SWTAGD albums production, because beside not sounding very good, all the songs are garbage too.


I think some of the songs from STAGD are really good like the title track, pittsburgh syndrome, as the sleeper awakes, sovereign. Some of the tracks are salvageable, and some are just plain weak. But who knows maybe a great production would breathe new life into those weak songs........eh who am i kiddin. That was a huge lull in their career.

As for Pink Floyd, I have nothing bad to say about any of their albums' productions.


----------



## B.M.F. (Jan 7, 2018)

I pondered about this topic for a while when it was posted. I think a lot of the reason why some productions sound the way they do is trial and error; you gotta learn and gotta start somewhere. Do you ever really master anything? I think of Scott Burns mixes such as when he started out (Obituary's "Slowly We Rot" 1990) to some even a few years later (Malevolent Creation, "Retribution", 1992) the difference is dramatic in a positive way. In these fickle times where imperfection is being avoided on the cost of guts, such "learning on the job" is not tolerated unless you are funding your own recording and production, mixing activities. And of course it's a very subjective and controversial topic. But with recording you gotta do it and experiment. 

You may also be pressed for time and money and may not deliver the results you want. Gotta send it to the mastering house by so and so date, record company wants it out by next month, etc.

In the real world view I also agree with those who have stated that "production-by-committee" is one reason why some mixes end up sounding like crap as well, especially when dealing with a band who is very opinionated on their individual roles.
I listen to a lot of demos and badly recorded media (what many would consider "awful production") and I find a output processing plugin such as FX Sound Enhancer does wonders. It also includes its own very powerful graphic EQ. Of course, there is a certain point where not even that will clean up straight noise.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 7, 2018)

I know the original mix for Nevermore's Enemies of Reality was plagued by a small budget and time constraints.

And Kelly Grey.


----------



## btbg (Jan 7, 2018)

Watch lamb of gods “Making of As the Palaces Burn” and it’ll literally answer all of your questions.

The big one? Time and money.


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 7, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> It sounds "weak"? Try turning up your fucking volume, you dirty rotten pricks. "Old production" is "Made to be played LOUD!" as Vinnie Vincent Invasion albums would say. Modern production methods sound shit no matter what volume they are at, whereas older albums sound great at any volume, and get better the more you crank them up.



The average music consumer has _always _judged (arbitrarily) the louder of two audio samples to be of higher quality. This has been exploited from the distant past of the first home stereo salesmen, up through the loudness wars, and into the present Tosin Abasi pickup shootout - Whichever is being sold need only be presented slightly more loudly, and the listener with disposable income will do the rest. No matter when in the last century you present that bit of wisdom, it will fall on deaf ears.

Listen to any “shootout” video on YouTube, and you’ll hear the preferred product demonstrated with _just enough _extra. “Informed” consumers have even convinced themselves that they can be sold _wood_ this way. Then they go and propagate that bit of wisdom in an unrelated ss.org thread soliciting recommendations for picks/strings/knobs/anything.

That dick goes so much deeper than album production.


----------



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 7, 2018)

^With that being said, I actually prefer the "louder" albums, but for a different reason....

I do the majority of my music listening in my car to and from work everyday. About 70 minutes round trip. I do still listen to cd's but most of the time i have my mp3 player on shuffle. Id say at least 60% of the music on there is metal, and modern...............from the 90's on. So the rest of the music thats pre-90's (when there wasnt a loudness war going on), is consequently quieter. So if im in a balls to the wall metal mood, i want the next song to be hard heavy and loud, Its just a tad annoying when i have to turn up the volume when an album like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath comes on because its so "quiet".

I'll forget to turn the volume down when the song is over and, without fail, the next song will be something screamingly loud; like Strapping Young Lad - Home Nucleonics.

Let me clarify by saying I know that just because some music is louder doesnt mean i think the production sounds better...


----------



## wankerness (Jan 8, 2018)

Unleash The Fury said:


> ^With that being said, I actually prefer the "louder" albums, but for a different reason....
> 
> I do the majority of my music listening in my car to and from work everyday. About 70 minutes round trip. I do still listen to cd's but most of the time i have my mp3 player on shuffle. Id say at least 60% of the music on there is metal, and modern...............from the 90's on. So the rest of the music thats pre-90's (when there wasnt a loudness war going on), is consequently quieter. So if im in a balls to the wall metal mood, i want the next song to be hard heavy and loud, Its just a tad annoying when i have to turn up the volume when an album like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath comes on because its so "quiet".
> 
> ...



It used to be that you could run a scan on your collection and it would even the balance out between all of them by adding or subtracting volume to albums individually and applying that as a tag. Replay Gain, I think it was called (from a quick search). Is that not a thing anymore?


----------



## Lemonbaby (Jan 8, 2018)

At the end of the day it's all veeery subjective. One example I'd like to throw in is Jason Richardson's "I". I joined the Indiegogo campaign and was extremely disappointed by the production/sound of the final product. While still wondering how someone would release such a piece of catastrophic you-know-what I checked the web to find out there are people who seem to actually like it. Lesson learned: support someone else with his project who still has full hearing...


----------



## vilk (Jan 8, 2018)

btbg said:


> Watch lamb of gods “Making of As the Palaces Burn” and it’ll literally answer all of your questions.
> 
> The big one? Time and money.


I love the old production on ATPB and I absolutely hate the remastered re-release....


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 8, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> While still wondering how someone would release such a piece of catastrophic you-know-what I checked the web to find out there are people who seem to actually like it. Lesson learned: support someone else with his project who still has full hearing...


It just sounds like mostly programmed and hyper-edited to the point of being electronic music with some solos.
I think a lot of times its definitely a time/money thing. I know from my experience "mixing by committee" is an excellent way to get something garbage....drummers only listen to the drums, guitarists only listen to the guitars, bassists don't give a crap, and vocalists only listen to the vocals and the kick drum.....


----------



## TedEH (Jan 8, 2018)

vilk said:


> I love the old production on ATPB and I absolutely hate the remastered re-release....


IMO neither mix is great. The old one was bad, and the new one was just an attempt to polish a turd, as the expression goes. Sort of strikes me as a 'they did the best they could with what they had' scenario for both of them.


----------



## fps (Jan 8, 2018)

Justice sounds great, this is all a load of nonsense.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 8, 2018)

Unleash The Fury said:


> Didnt they all listen to the final product and say "hmm i cant hear the bass" or "hmm i cant hear the vocals"?



Not sure if any of your questions can't simply be answered by "Shit happens."

I think Yngwie has had a few albums with iffy production. If I had to guess, I would say that he simply wanted to get his stuff out there on the budget he had available, because he believed he had cool songs and it would be worthwhile. I would also venture a guess that he was overall successful with that strategy, since we all know his name and he's a highly regarded guitarist, despite some of the incredible stories about how douchey he might be (I never personally had a problem with him, but I've never had a beer with the guy or anything like that).

In terms of Metallica...I don't know if you know this, but their big commercial success followed "the Black Album," not so much after "Master of Puppets" as some people who were not yet born seem to remember. I'd say that they were definitely around at that point and the underground buzzed about them, but I doubt that they made enough money from MOP to upscale their budget on AJfA by a quantum leap. Cliff had only recently died and Jason was new. I don't think the guys were really in a very good place, mentally, which actually makes the songwriting work on a new level, but Lars' alleged instructions (whether joking and taken seriously or meant seriously and taken seriously, whatever) should explain why there was no bass. Looking back, I think there are a number of regrettable things about Jason's (pseudo) inclusion in the band. It could have been a kind of respectful thing if they recorded AJfA without any bass and no bass player, kind of like a moment of silence for Cliff, or something of that nature, but instead, they record the album with Jason, then cut Jason out in mixing, and the album's legacy, which should have been a respectful epilogue to Cliff's career with them, ends up being a sort of joke about how disrespectful the band was to Jason, instead.


----------



## wankerness (Jan 8, 2018)

fps said:


> Justice sounds great, this is all a load of nonsense.


If one of the main instruments is literally inaudible, I don't qualify that as "great sounding." I guess it was INTENTIONAL, though, since they hated Jason, and if so I guess they succeeded!


----------



## will_shred (Jan 8, 2018)

btbg said:


> Watch lamb of gods “Making of As the Palaces Burn” and it’ll literally answer all of your questions.
> 
> The big one? Time and money.



oddly enough As The Palaces Burn is my favorite LOG album production wise. Its stupidly heavy and raw. Their new stuff is prestine, but there's something to be said for the flaws in an album adding a human element.


----------



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 8, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Not sure if any of your questions can't simply be answered by "Shit happens."
> 
> I think Yngwie has had a few albums with iffy production. If I had to guess, I would say that he simply wanted to get his stuff out there on the budget he had available, because he believed he had cool songs and it would be worthwhile. I would also venture a guess that he was overall successful with that strategy, since we all know his name and he's a highly regarded guitarist, despite some of the incredible stories about how douchey he might be (I never personally had a problem with him, but I've never had a beer with the guy or anything like that).
> 
> In terms of Metallica...I don't know if you know this, but their big commercial success followed "the Black Album," not so much after "Master of Puppets" as some people who were not yet born seem to remember. I'd say that they were definitely around at that point and the underground buzzed about them, but I doubt that they made enough money from MOP to upscale their budget on AJfA by a quantum leap. Cliff had only recently died and Jason was new. I don't think the guys were really in a very good place, mentally, which actually makes the songwriting work on a new level, but Lars' alleged instructions (whether joking and taken seriously or meant seriously and taken seriously, whatever) should explain why there was no bass. Looking back, I think there are a number of regrettable things about Jason's (pseudo) inclusion in the band. It could have been a kind of respectful thing if they recorded AJfA without any bass and no bass player, kind of like a moment of silence for Cliff, or something of that nature, but instead, they record the album with Jason, then cut Jason out in mixing, and the album's legacy, which should have been a respectful epilogue to Cliff's career with them, ends up being a sort of joke about how disrespectful the band was to Jason, instead.


Ill be the first to say i know nothing about recording/mixing/mastering.....but even on a budget and time crunch, youd think before they finalize it and heard the vocals were inaudible, (in Yngwies case for the WTEAW album) that all the guy would have to do is move the vocal slider up just a tiny bit. Anyone can do that in the last 2 seconds before theyre time was up. So even though i dont have any experience in that field, i do know that theres a volume slider for the vocal track, and that you can simply move it up a little. No?

As for Metallica, it should have been a group decision not just a Lars decision.


----------



## MFB (Jan 9, 2018)

will_shred said:


> oddly enough As The Palaces Burn is my favorite LOG album production wise. Its stupidly heavy and raw. Their new stuff is prestine, but there's something to be said for the flaws in an album adding a human element.



When I think 'wall of noise' production, ATPB is definitely up there. I mean, the intro to Ruin basically makes your ears bleed, but sadly, it's one of the charms of the album so I can't knock it too much. I think that Sacrament was their sweet spot.


----------



## TedEH (Jan 9, 2018)

MFB said:


> I think that Sacrament was their sweet spot.


+1.

Their more recent releases are definite contenders in the loudness wars- they're SO LOUD for no reason.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 9, 2018)

Maybe Yngwie didn't like the singer but couldn't find anyone else before they started? 

When I was in my early 20's and I was lucky enough to go into a decent studio, I really didn't question anything nor suggest anything - nothing. I just felt intimidated and cowered in the corner until it was time for me to do my thing. I think that engineer really knew what he was doing, so, in my mind, it worked out best that way.

The last time I went into the studio, I really got the strong feeling that the chief engineer didn't really know what he was doing, but I mostly kept my mouth shut, and then it ended up being a total disaster.

In neither case was I really offered many test mix listens. I recorded stuff...some weeks later...I heard the stuff, and I offered my feedback about the mix. In the first case, the engineer sent us the same mix again without the changes we requested, so we just kind of talked it over and decided the final product really wasn't that bad, and it was obviously going to be difficult lighting a fire under this guy's ass after he thought he was done, so we just went with the first test mix as the final mix. In the most recent case, it took way longer to hear anything at all, and then tons of stuff was flat out missing from the mix, weeks after that, I got some test mix files that just...well, I just really didn't know where to start with this guy - very few of the takes he used were the final takes we agreed on using, so there were mistakes left in, everything was time-shifted willy nilly so that the drums didn't synch up with the music, vocal tracks were still missing or on one song only the vocal tracks were there and nothing else...after two weeks in the studio, at a couple hundred bucks a day, plus a huge down payment for the mixing time and extra down payment for editing, and now each mix was getting worse and worse, so I canned the whole endeavour and decided instead to take our demo and have it mastered.

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of producers are just stubborn, so you might simply get what you get. And even now that there is so much good information available for free on the internet, there are still people who have no idea what they are doing in the studio.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 9, 2018)

A big problem lately is band members think they can produce, mix and sometimes master the album all by themselves. The result is usually a muddy thin sounding album thats more like a demo or pre-production recording. After the Burial and Wintersun being prime examples.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 9, 2018)

ATB's last couple haven't been the worst, or even bad really. I have no idea about Wintersun because dude's personality makes me wanna hit him with a shovel, so I can't listen to it.


----------



## Andromalia (Jan 9, 2018)

With time I discover I actually prefer live mixes even if they are processed, DTP and Hypocrisy's "Hell over Sofia" for exemple sound better to me than their studio things.
As for "bad production", I don't know. Anyone can get a decent clean sound for cheap now but it wasn't the case before. The early AA albums sound pretty terrible.
My personal production favorite still is "the number of the beast" to this day. It sounds "real". You can close your eyes and see the band in front of you playing. Unlike some records where you hear 8 guitarists, 4 drumkits, an autotuned singer and 6 compressors.


----------



## Descent (Jan 9, 2018)

Well...being on both sides of the glass I have to say that every session is different.
@bostjan in his case sounds like he got some kind of a package deal and the band didn't really sit in on the mix, in both of these cases. Mixes that I've worked on always had the band or their producer in there.
2nd case he mentions sound just like the engineer lost or printed off the wrong take, which is sad because considering that most bands can now record themselves, this amateur behavior adds even more flak detracting from real working engineers. You usually get what you pay for.
As a musician, I never had that experience, even back in the day when I didn't know what I was doing, I insisted being there for the mixing as well as all tracking sessions.

@Andromalia Hopicrisy are usually well recorded, but "End of Disclosure" had such a cookie cutter drum work that it almost seemed like Tangtren used EZDrummer on it. 

But going to albums and bad production - the main thing is the vibe or performance of an album, even the quality of the takes is secondary. Look at early Bathory - horrible production but it gave it that eerie graveyard sound. Metallica did AJFA which had no bass, seriously, even though they say the bass is there, I've strained hard on the original production listening and can't hear the bass at all. That production then started a whole line of almost bass-less endeavors.

Sounds and mixes are subjective - you can just view these or any forums and see that people rarely agree on what is a good or finished mix. There's always something that someone seems to lack in the song. That is also the reason why record companies pick big name mix engineers - they know what is the most important part of the song and bring that out in the mix, making it vibe/jel more.

Sound systems are inconsistent. You just have so many systems in imperfect acoustic spaces, nowadays mostly cars and $10 earbuds, that you can't possibly expect it to sound as good anywhere.

Most important part of the mix is probably the song arrangement. One of the reasons why expensive records back in the day had arrangers/conductors. The reason was to approach things in orchestral manner, letting each instrument work with the song.
Nowadays you get a deathcore band that just goes "har har" and all dudes play the same riff on all instruments, so no reason the mix is flat, as there's really nothing happening there.


----------



## Descent (Jan 9, 2018)

Forgot another point:

Record companies look for "hot" producers, so a certain era has been imprinted with a certain dude's sound. 

Think of Morrisound Florida death metal "sound" - that sound became so big that Kreator and Sepultura specifically travelled to that studio. In the case of Sepultura it worked great, Kreator's "Renewal"...not really. They went there and did something different, which is interesting, but I feel that album just has a weird sonic imprint. I like it because it is different for Kreator.

Early 2000s you had almost every metal album produced by Andy Sneap, I remember one year a Nevermore and Arch Enemy albums came out at about the same time and I put both in my CD changer, didn't know which was which until Warrel Dane started singing.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 9, 2018)

Descent said:


> Early 2000s you had almost every metal album produced by Andy Sneap, I remember one year a Nevermore and Arch Enemy albums came out at about the same time and I put both in my CD changer, didn't know which was which until Warrel Dane started singing.



This is one of the reasons I actually like that more and more bands are taking on production duties themselves. Sure, we may not always get a perfect mix, and sometimes its a disaster (basically anything that came out the first few years on Sumerian, haha), but I got so sick of EVERY nu-metal band sounding the same when I was into that stuff, because there were only like three producers doing it. At least with the band at the helm we get whatever their vision might be. It was the same way with local studios in the late nineties/early 2000's. There were like 2-3 places to go that could actually produce quality material, but every mix that came out of them sounded the same. Same drum tones, same vocal processing, same overall level balance. I remember recording in high-school and being a little miffed that, though it sounded good, our demo/EP sounded just like everyone else's in a 100 mile radius because dude was the ONLY game around.


----------



## Descent (Jan 9, 2018)

^ So very true. 
No matter how maligned these albums are, I'll have to give props to Metallica, Slayer and Megadeth for going for their own sonic imprint. Out of the big 4 only Anthrax released a great sounding last 2 albums that are also original and modern. Megadeth's is especially bad on production, I can hear the sonic imprint of the amp modelers that they used.


----------



## wankerness (Jan 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> I got so sick of EVERY nu-metal band sounding the same when I was into that stuff, because there were only like three producers doing it.



Who are you referring to? I recall gigantic sonic variation between heavily distorted bands at the time even with the same producer. Well, with Ross Robinson, anyway. Amen/Machine Head - The Burning Red/Slipknot's first two/Limp Bizkit's first album/Soulfly/Glassjaw/Korn's first two albums/At the Drive-In - RoC couldn't really be further removed from each other in the distorted guitar production world.

I'm not convinced self-produced stuff gives any more variation when everyone on the planet seems to own an Axe FX


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 9, 2018)

I don't even remember people's names, but when I was listening to rap metal it seemed like the same people were credited on a lot of albums. RR was an exception, because his albums always sounded like well-mastered demos! lol


----------



## bostjan (Jan 9, 2018)

Descent said:


> Well...being on both sides of the glass I have to say that every session is different.
> @bostjan in his case sounds like he got some kind of a package deal and the band didn't really sit in on the mix, in both of these cases. Mixes that I've worked on always had the band or their producer in there.
> 2nd case he mentions sound just like the engineer lost or printed off the wrong take, which is sad because considering that most bands can now record themselves, this amateur behavior adds even more flak detracting from real working engineers. You usually get what you pay for.
> As a musician, I never had that experience, even back in the day when I didn't know what I was doing, I insisted being there for the mixing as well as all tracking sessions.


Having only been in a paid third party studio three times, I only ever once got to sit in with the mixing session. My last experience was just a shitshow, so maybe I shouldn't go into that. I later found out that the recording the engineer gave us as an example of his work was actually not even engineered by him...I basically got scammed and I'm not terribly proud of it, especially with it not being my first time. But in my own defense, this was a pretty busy studio and this guy did the same thing to at least two other bands that I know of.
And...the first time, I was really green, so, like I said, I really just played it low key and didn't really offer up my opinion. Believe it or not, I was not always this crotchety and long winded. 
Of course, I've never had anything to do with a major label, so these were all relatively small studios set up in strip malls and the like. 2/3 were great (albeit expensive) experiences overall.
Probably, artists like Yngwie are not really light years ahead of where we were at with budget. I could see where he might pull a producer who might not be the best in the industry from time to time. (I mean, obviously, based on the records he's released - cool songs and cringey production seemed to have been his mantra for a period).


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 9, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> A big problem lately is band members think they can produce, mix and sometimes master the album all by themselves. The result is usually a muddy thin sounding album thats more like a demo or pre-production recording. After the Burial and Wintersun being prime examples.



Throw Judas Priest's Redeemer of Souls in there as well. Was produced by Glenn Tipton, their main guitarist.

He was 67 years old at the time and has been playing on stage since the early '70s. I can guarantee to you the dude's ears are beyond fucked. 

Unless you have a history of being a mixer/producer (see: Nolly, Misha Mansoor, Andy Sneap, Erik Rutan), you should never handle mixing/mastering duties.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 9, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Unless you have a history of being a mixer/producer (see: Nolly, Misha Mansoor, Andy Sneap, Erik Rutan), you should never handle mixing/mastering duties.



How does one acquire a history in something if they don't actually do the thing?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> How does one acquire a history in something if they don't actually do the thing?


I mean when you got a big band like Judas Priest, you'd expect... you know... someone that actually knows what they're doing.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 9, 2018)

In that specific example, yeah, they probably could have afforded someone else.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> In that specific example, yeah, they probably could have afforded someone else.


That's more of what I was going for. 

I can get a smaller band self-producing. Because they can't afford big names.

Wehen you're a big band on a big label, usually you have a liiiittle more leeway to have a proper producer.


----------



## Overtone (Jan 9, 2018)

The better question is why so many remasters suck balls compared to the original. I get that there's some commercial pressure to do remasters, but they shouldn't be unlistenable for someone who loves the original.


----------



## Overtone (Jan 9, 2018)

I think the basic answer to the OP question is limited time/budget. Sometimes you just can't work on something any longer. Even Devin Townsend has put out albums where he wasn't 100% happy with the production due to time constraints.


----------



## mongey (Jan 9, 2018)

its art. decisions are made on the fly and sometimes they aren't the right ones in the long run .

I like Meshuggah's Nothing album allot. its one of my go to gym albums on a day when I feel like pushing hard .I only recently heard the re done version and I didn't really like it. The shortcomings sonically of the original just sound like what the album sounds like to me. its part of its strength and personality

to be honest I have never listened to AJFA and thought "this needs more bass" just sounds like AJFA to me


----------



## beerandbeards (Jan 9, 2018)

I wish Defeated Sanity’s first album was mixed better


----------



## Nlelith (Jan 9, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> ...The result is usually a muddy thin sounding album thats more like a demo or pre-production recording. After the Burial...


Last week: one of ATB songs starts playing in a shuffled playlist, don't remember which one, but intro riff has that low-fi/radio speaker effect on it. Then verse kicks in, but riff still sounds incredibly thin and I realise that's the actual tone...


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 10, 2018)

I wish more albums were mixed like Daniel Johnston’s cassettes.


----------



## WintermintP (Jan 10, 2018)

Unleash The Fury said:


> I know that "bad" production is subjective, but there are some obvious blunders.
> 
> Like Metallicas AJFA, is notorious for having barely audible bass. How was this even allowed to happen? Did the band not listen to it before everyone agreed to release it? Did the person who produced it just prefer to have the bass' volume so low?





You're welcome,
WintermintP


----------



## Unleash The Fury (Jan 10, 2018)

WintermintP said:


> You're welcome,
> WintermintP



Thanks. Someone already posted this though.


----------



## Descent (Jan 10, 2018)

Talking about remaster...I bought Metallica's reMaster of Puppets on vinyl. They did an awesome job, I swear I am hearing extra layers of harmonics that didn't exist in the CD transfer at least.

Talking about Sneap - check the new Judas Priest song "Firepower"



then compare it to Accept



JP is not as "loud" but volume match them and compare, it is almost the identical mix.

Talking about how a producer becomes the "Name" - you basically need to have a major hit. Quite impossible for someone that is not in the ol' boy school to break through as once you get to that stage, guess who plays golf with the A&R of Sony? More likely Bob Rock, not us 

Sometimes a big name musician makes a sideways move, usually doesn't bode well, but in some instances it has been successful. Andy Sneap for example, if you've listened to Sabbat, wasn't that good at the time judging by his guitar sound, which is probably a Boss Metalzone though a JCM800/900 rig:


Here's Andy's band where he's also producer/engineer:


Similar to the Judas and Accept sounds, almost identical? Yup.
Somehow...I like the music better so I might actually be getting this one, damn


----------



## Rizzo (Jan 10, 2018)

To the OP: well, I'd say because of a mix of time, budget, incompetence maybe sometimes it does happen, or plain choice. As said already.

As for spitting on old releases, I guess we're just spoiled with modern technology. Everyone at their time used the best technology available and for their available budget. Technological progress, devaluation and less barriers to entry got us where we're at now.

Also for who said "The Beatles sounded about right", well first they had an enormous budget and second they and their crew basically invented all "modern" recording techniques. If you want technical inspiration, look no further than their productions, really.


----------



## DLG (Jan 10, 2018)

that Yngwie album sounds like ass because Yngwie is an ass and thinks he can produce and mix albums, but he can't. Mark Boals has some insane vocals on that album and they are barely audible. 

But bad production is subjective. Give me AJFA over ever single sterile, lifeless djentcore album where the guitars sound like keyboards and the snares sound like floor toms.


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 10, 2018)

We have a shorter word for what you’re describing; and it’s “djent.” And it’s inspired a decade of ambition in fat young men to register on this site and promote their imitations of one another in hopes of eventually getting a company to like their YouTube channel. But the journey must begin by fetishizing bad, buzzy guitar sounds that you try to replicate in your bedroom.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 10, 2018)

marcwormjim said:


> We have a shorter word for what you’re describing; and it’s “djent.” And it’s inspired a decade of ambition in fat young men to register on this site and promote their imitations of one another in hopes of eventually getting a company to like their YouTube channel. But the journey must begin by fetishizing bad, buzzy guitar sounds that you try to replicate in your bedroom.


Lol, you mad bro?


----------



## InHiding (Jan 10, 2018)

I'm not sure what the previous posts try to say but in general modern metal production is quite shit IMO. Too clinical. Too bad!


----------



## Descent (Jan 10, 2018)

marcwormjim said:


> We have a shorter word for what you’re describing; and it’s “djent.” And it’s inspired a decade of ambition in fat young men to register on this site and promote their imitations of one another in hopes of eventually getting a company to like their YouTube channel. But the journey must begin by fetishizing bad, buzzy guitar sounds that you try to replicate in your bedroom.


Couldn't have said it better! 

Few points you forgot to mention is how not finding a band is related to awkwardness coupled with social anxiety which leads to overuse of AxeFx products  
Also nothing on use of canned sound drum products and always undermixing the bass 

On Yngwie - I think the problem is his wife. Read his bio. She basically censors every move the Yngman makes. I think she watched the bottom line and producers, engineers and mixers were just too much $$$ so Yngwie just does it with a junior apprentice engineer nowadays, probably some fanboy they pay to keep quiet so they can say Yngwie recorded the album. His ego and his wife got the better of him. He sounded best when there was a producer to bust his chops.


----------



## crankyrayhanky (Jan 10, 2018)

I love Deth Magnetic because it lowered the bar on mastering. I used to get so obsessed trying to get my master right, but now I hear DM and I say it screw it, after a few hours my mix sounds better than that , at least there's less digi-artifacts, lol


----------



## Lukhas (Jan 10, 2018)

The discussion reminds me of Devn Townsend's "Infinity", which does crunch and saturates because Devin wanted it to. I do understand the artistic approach behind it, but I also find it hard to listen in a go specifically because of that. The saturation tires my ears, even if I think it's a good album. However I resent Adam "Nolly" Getgood even more for the drum sound on "Transcendence" despite how much the members of the Devin Townsend Project praised him for that specific reason.  It sounded very hollow, lacked depth and presence (aside from the bass drum), with huge separation between each element of the kit and the impression that each element was recorded separately. Just sounded like Periphery's drum production thrown in a Devin Townsend record and was very out of place. Guess what works for one band doesn't for another...


cip 123 said:


>



Ever since I've listened to the "...And Justice For Jason" version, I wasn't able to even tolerate the original version, even if I do think the guitar and rum sounds is pretty unique in its aggressiveness and heaviness without sounding blasted. The bass on the "Jason" version doesn't even sound that great or isn't that audible, but it adds a lot of depth. I "obtained" the .mp3 320kbps a few years back.


Ironically Jason Newsted is perfectly aware of this version existing, and he doesn't mind either mixes. Seems he was still happy to join his favourite band at the time regardless of what they did with his tracks.




Descent said:


> ^ So very true.
> No matter how maligned these albums are, I'll have to give props to Metallica, Slayer and Megadeth for going for their own sonic imprint. Out of the big 4 only Anthrax released a great sounding last 2 albums that are also original and modern. Megadeth's is especially bad on production, I can hear the sonic imprint of the amp modelers that they used.


I don't listen to Endgame only because of the production. It's very loud, the guitars are very fizzy and with the bass drum cover everything, you can hear the attack of the bass guitar but can't actually feel it... I do think it's a good album however, especially considering the state Megadeth (well, Dave mostly) was at.

EDIT: I think I've ruined "Images and Words" for quite a few people when I made people notice that the snare is pretty much the exact same sample from the beginning to the end of the album.  I've never told my mom for this exact reason since even though she isn't into Metal, she loves this album. John Petrucci mentions it in the promo video for the 25th anniversary tour. For those curious about what the original snare sounded like, you can check a few remixes on the "Greatest Hit" compilation. To be honest, if it wasn't for the snare, I prefer the original mix but appreciate the details brought out in the remix, which weren't audible in the original.


----------



## TedEH (Jan 10, 2018)

Lukhas said:


> I resent Adam "Nolly" Getgood even more for the drum sound on "Transcendence" despite how much the members of the Devin Townsend Project praised him for that specific reason.


I actually really like the production on that one, drums included. It's suuuuuuuper produced sounding, but it works for that album because every element of the recording follows that same philosophy, commits and does it well. It's not raw guitars with super produced drums, or drums recorded in a garage with pristine AxeFX models on top of it- it's all very flashy, produced, polished, etc. It's consistent.

In contrast, and continuing the conversation about Dream Theater, I was super turned off by the waaaaaaaay over produced drums on the self-titled album (from 2013?) because the drums are so processed that they sound like a drum machine- and not even a nice one. The snare sound is such a boring thud sound, and it contrasts against a relatively raw guitar sound, lots of bright and attention grabbing elements, the keys, the vocals- everything else on that recording is up-front and attention grabbing and cool to listen to, but the drums ruin it for me.


----------



## Lukhas (Jan 10, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I actually really like the production on that one, drums included. It's suuuuuuuper produced sounding, but it works for that album because every element of the recording follows that same philosophy, commits and does it well. It's not raw guitars with super produced drums, or drums recorded in a garage with pristine AxeFX models on top of it- it's all very flashy, produced, polished, etc. It's consistent.
> 
> In contrast, and continuing the conversation about Dream Theater, I was super turned off by the waaaaaaaay over produced drums on the self-titled album (from 2013?) because the drums are so processed that they sound like a drum machine- and not even a nice one. The snare sound is such a boring thud sound, and it contrasts against a relatively raw guitar sound, lots of bright and attention grabbing elements, the keys, the vocals- everything else on that recording is up-front and attention grabbing and cool to listen to, but the drums ruin it for me.


Most recent Dream Theater albums don't exactly have great production anyway. I remember grabbing a 5.1 mix "reduced" to stereo of their self-titled album and it was way better. Well they still didn't know how to make drums sound great, but at least it wasn't incredibly crushed and had more depth/dynamics. You could actually figure that John Myung had recorded something on that album.  It doesn't change my opinion of it or The Astonishing however regarding the quality of the songwriting. The 5.1 mix of their self-titled sounded way, way better than the CD mix. I feel for Mike Mangini who's surely a great drummer, but I never had the opportunity to hear how good he is.

For me, more than the drums (which aren't great), it's James LaBrie's performance that's annoying to listen to. You basically can tell he's lost his highs, especially on The Astonishing. Whenever he's in his mid-range there's barely any effects on his voice and he sounds pretty good. And when he tries to go higher, his voice gets drowned in effects to cover up his lack of depth. It's incredibly awful, and on the top of that a mixing choice makes it even more obvious. It's probably time they admit he can't do it anymore and start writing his parts significantly lower and stop drowning his voice, it almost sounds like a computer at some points. The irony is that I find he sounds way better even in his higher range on his solo records.


----------



## Element0s (Jan 10, 2018)

I tend to prefer older and rougher production styles compared to modern ones in general. I'll take _Unleashed In The East_ over 90% of things. 

As to why some albums have botched production? Could be all manner of things. The budget runs out (or is nonexistent). Corners get cut due to tight deadlines. I'm sure there have been situations where the band didn't even _hear_ the mixes when they were finished and were instead rushed to the pressing plant by management. Maybe someone fucked someone's girlfriend and sabotage gets involved, or the sessions are cobbled together between multiple studios/engineers and things just don't seem to line up. Maybe it's an artistic choice? Maybe the producer is Kelly Gray.


----------



## DLG (Jan 10, 2018)

I tend to be halfway when it comes to metal production, I like to hear everything clearly, but I also want to hear atmosphere and I want to hear an album that sounds like an actual band playing together without everything sounding so pristine, edited and over-produced. So like late 90s/early 2000s is my preferred production. Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black, Strapping Young Lad - City, Soilwork - A Predator's Portrait, Sikth - Death of a Dead Day. That's the kind of production I like most. You can clearly hear everything that's being played but it's still full of life, imperfect and human.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 10, 2018)

Element0s said:


> I tend to prefer older and rougher production styles compared to modern ones in general. I'll take _Unleashed In The East_ over 90% of things.
> 
> As to why some albums have botched production? Could be all manner of things. The budget runs out (or is nonexistent). Corners get cut due to tight deadlines. I'm sure there have been situations where the band didn't even _hear_ the mixes when they were finished and were instead rushed to the pressing plant by management. Maybe someone fucked someone's girlfriend and sabotage gets involved, or the sessions are cobbled together between multiple studios/engineers and things just don't seem to line up. Maybe it's an artistic choice? Maybe the producer is Kelly Gray.


This. In the case of Killing is My Business..., Dave Mustaine said they had an 8k budget, 4k was spent on drugs and hamburger by Chris Poland and their drug addicted manager [if memory serves], and is why the results were subpar. Also something about Karat Faye, but I can't remember what. At the very least, Karat Faye probably shouldn't have produced a thrash band.


----------



## Ebony (Jan 10, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Dave Mustaine said they had an 8k budget, 4k was spent on drugs and hamburger



That is some unbridled dedication right there. To the burger joint and the dealer, anyways.


----------



## wankerness (Jan 11, 2018)

Lukhas said:


> EDIT: I think I've ruined "Images and Words" for quite a few people when I made people notice that the snare is pretty much the exact same sample from the beginning to the end of the album.  I've never told my mom for this exact reason since even though she isn't into Metal, she loves this album. John Petrucci mentions it in the promo video for the 25th anniversary tour. For those curious about what the original snare sounded like, you can check a few remixes on the "Greatest Hit" compilation. To be honest, if it wasn't for the snare, I prefer the original mix but appreciate the details brought out in the remix, which weren't audible in the original.




My DT-loving nerd friends and I went to a record store one fateful day, where I bought the single for Eve (I think?), and it had a demo track of Take the Time on it which sounded basically the same but had real snare on it. We listened to it, and when the drums came in our immediate reactions were "what the hell, this sounds way better" and after that I could never unhear the silly snare sound used on the final product. I still love the album, though!


----------



## InHiding (Jan 11, 2018)

The snare is the best thing on that album


----------



## Descent (Jan 11, 2018)

DLG said:


> I tend to be halfway when it comes to metal production, I like to hear everything clearly, but I also want to hear atmosphere and I want to hear an album that sounds like an actual band playing together without everything sounding so pristine, edited and over-produced. So like late 90s/early 2000s is my preferred production. Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black, Strapping Young Lad - City, Soilwork - A Predator's Portrait, Sikth - Death of a Dead Day. That's the kind of production I like most. You can clearly hear everything that's being played but it's still full of life, imperfect and human.



In case you want to hear atmosphere, this was recorded in our studio playing together, only lead overdubs and a 3rd rhythm guitar in the harmony part.

https://scrollkeeper.bandcamp.com/releases

Kinda had to fight the guys to do it this production style, some of them still hate it 
I am just sick of the uber-stale recordings. When you think Doors recorded on 4 track some of their best hits, Black Sabbath on 8 track first album in 8hrs, so why bands can't do that now?

BTW - I might be in the minority but after listening to Jason's version with bass, I think some parts on the album sound a lot tighter without it. I think the bass lines weren't really that good, thus they chose to omit them, or maybe they just didn't have time to get them finished, but I might be wrong.

@Spaced Out Ace about "Killing is my Business" - I think the record sounds good for what Megadeth could do at that time. I actually prefer these old school records that were done by non-metal guys, this one and Slayer's "Hell Awaits" have bass that you can hear. Maybe the guitars are not as aggressive but I don't have problem with either. "Killing..." is one of the albums that I still listen to, unlike anything from them that is post "Symphony...".


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 11, 2018)

Descent said:


> I am just sick of the uber-stale recordings. When you think Doors recorded on 4 track some of their best hits, Black Sabbath on 8 track first album in 8hrs, so why bands can't do that now?


I guarantee those bands would have taken more time and used better equipment if it was an option. The reason bands don't do that now is because they don't have to. I definitely think some bands get a little nutty with the editing and production, but I'd much rather hear everything in a mix and have it done clean and clear and loud.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 11, 2018)

Descent said:


> I am just sick of the uber-stale recordings. When you think Doors recorded on 4 track some of their best hits, Black Sabbath on 8 track first album in 8hrs, so why bands can't do that now?



Higher tech means more convenience. I guarantee there are still bands recording on 4 track. But I'm guessing few people care, because those bands are probably so hipster that they think it's cool that no one has heard of them.

So, maybe it's not that bands aren't doing it, and more that the bands you wish were doing that are not doing that. Those bands are probably more widely known because they are more in touch with trends and technology. So it's one of those things.


----------



## couverdure (Jan 11, 2018)

Element0s said:


> I'm sure there have been situations where the band didn't even _hear_ the mixes when they were finished and were instead rushed to the pressing plant by management.


I remember reading from some member of Memphis May Fire that they forgot to complete the final masters of Unconditional before it got shipped to the presses, so the original release ended up sounding like a sloppy mess. They released a remastered version of the album with bonus tracks a year later to fix that problem.

That reminds me of a similar problem, a lot of newer metalcore bands tend to have production that sounds super robotic, like there's barely any sustain on the guitar tone and the drums are too clean. Joey Sturgis is a huge offender of doing this and Cameron Mizell is even worse.

Here are some examples of my problem:


----------



## couverdure (Jan 11, 2018)

On the other hand, there are metalcore bands with production that I like. I had to post this separately because SSO won't let me embed more than five videos.


----------



## WintermintP (Jan 11, 2018)

couverdure said:


> That reminds me of a similar problem, a lot of newer metalcore bands tend to have production that sounds super robotic, like there's barely any sustain on the guitar tone and the drums are too clean. Joey Sturgis is a huge offender of doing this and Cameron Mizell is even worse.


SYO DYAT MEANS U HATE MAH SCHTUFF?!






(Yes, I'm one of those metalcore artists who tends to make guitars sound robotic deliberately because I like the robotic kind of sound)

WintermintP


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 12, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Higher tech means more convenience. I guarantee there are still bands recording on 4 track. But I'm guessing few people care, because those bands are probably so hipster that they think it's cool that no one has heard of them.



Nailed it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 12, 2018)

This album also has a really robotic sound, though I used to like it quite a bit.


----------



## Descent (Jan 12, 2018)

@GunpointMetal I guess you're right. 

Back to production, I remember Nevermore's "Enemies of Reality" was an album that was mixed twice cause the public outcry was huge.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 12, 2018)

Descent said:


> Back to production, I remember Nevermore's "Enemies of Reality" was an album that was mixed twice cause the public outcry was huge.


I wonder which is worse: Nevermore - Enemies of Reality, or Lamb of God - As The Palaces Burn. And on the other side of that, which had the most improvement by the remix/remaster process.


----------



## sakeido (Jan 12, 2018)

WintermintP said:


> SYO DYAT MEANS U HATE MAH SCHTUFF?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then get a MIDI keyboard and a sample pack and just write your albums like that. Saves lots of time. It's disappointing to see so many people completely and entirely miss the point of playing a real instrument... but on the other hand this new trendy production style is so stupid it instantly disqualifies about 98% of new releases for me and makes it actually doable to shift through what's left. 

The robot sound works for that new EDM-fusion-ish-dance-y metal and basically nothing else... people don't seem to think of the studio as an instrument and their producer as another contributor who must gel with the band every bit as much as the band's full time members.

re: why mixes are bad
- band can't actually play for shit and has to go for the robot sound
- went with a brand new producer who is still learning (trying to save money)
- went with an experienced producer then didn't pay him enough so he didn't give a fuck and basically used presets to mix the album (trying to save money)
- went with an experienced producer who no longer gives a fuck (Death Magnetic) or they caught him too late in his career and his success has now gone to his head and ruined his mixes (Joey Sturgis)
- band thought they could produce it themselves even though mixing is a skill that takes thousands of hours and dollars to get good at (After the Burial)
- something legitimately went wrong in the mixing/mastering process (As the Palaces Burn sounds like it was downconverted to 4.41khz by accident)
- producer was feeling himself and thought he could master the album himself and nobody had the good sense to tell him no, probably trying to save money (Veil of Maya Eclipse)
- band spent money on things not directly related to the mix, like drugs (all 80s bands) or building a studio (Gojira - Magma)
- band insisted on using their live rig in the studio, even though their stuff doesn't sit in the mix for shit (Engl players)
- band pays no attention to their bassist and lets him suck even though a good bass player is secretly the most important part of sounding huge
- band wrote songs so bad the producer can't stand to listen to them and tries to blow through his work as quickly as possible, probably by using lots of presets and Superior drummer (most djent bands)


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 12, 2018)

Another reason which I hope is rare is after an album is mastered and ready for printing it can still end up getting further mixing by someone else. I can't find the interview but Andy Sneap said one of the Arch Enemy albums he worked on had someone else F it after he sent off the final mix. The album was panned the other way around, his mix on the drums got ruined and a bunch of other stuff. 



couverdure said:


> That reminds me of a similar problem, a lot of newer metalcore bands tend to have production that sounds super robotic, like there's barely any sustain on the guitar tone and the drums are too clean. Joey Sturgis is a huge offender of doing this and Cameron Mizell is even worse.



That robotic guitar sound is basically from sampling everything and then copy pasting to the grid so every note is perfectly in time with no bleed into the next note - or - you record tracks at half speed and then speed them up using DAW tools to correct and align any timing mistakes. This has been the norm for years though. It isn't really anything to do with playing ability as Necrophagist is proof too but thats only if you can actually pull it off live. Personally I like it on albums when its done right.


----------



## TedEH (Jan 12, 2018)

sakeido said:


> or building a studio (Gojira - Magma)


I don't get this example. Magma sounds good to me.

I honestly think lots of people are just way too picky. And given that everyone has their own idea of what good or bad production even means, there will always be "bad" production because even the best production out there won't satisfy everyone.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Jan 12, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> That robotic guitar sound is basically from sampling everything and then copy pasting to the grid so every note is perfectly in time with no bleed into the next note - or - you record tracks at half speed and then speed them up using DAW tools to correct and align any timing mistakes. This has been the norm for years though. It isn't really anything to do with playing ability as Necrophagist is proof too but thats only if you can actually pull it off live. Personally I like it on albums when its done right.


Personally, I don't care for it. I used to not have an issue with it, but now it just sounds bad. I'd rather a band with the ability to play and that sounds like a band. For instance, Ace, Gibbons, Eddie, and Iommi all play slightly behind the beat, and it gives room to breathe. It also sounds more natural, has more character, and sounds better live. Most of these super tight on record bands can't pull it off as well live, and it just doesn't sound that good. 

Not knocking anyone who enjoys that sort of thing, but I don't really care for it. I find it fatiguing to listen to.


----------



## BenjaminW (Jan 12, 2018)

IMO, I think the Dream Theater's self titled album has some really shitty drum mixing. Mangini is one of my favorite drummers without a doubt but whether it's him or producers that are behind that god awful sound, please change it.


----------



## sakeido (Jan 12, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I don't get this example. Magma sounds good to me.
> 
> I honestly think lots of people are just way too picky. And given that everyone has their own idea of what good or bad production even means, there will always be "bad" production because even the best production out there won't satisfy everyone.



It's a decent mix, but a big step back from the Will Putney mix on L'enfant Sauvage right before it or even the Logan Mader mix on Way of All Flesh.. the guy who mixed Magma only has a few credits on shit you've never heard, and you can tell

Mixes are subjective but you want the fullest execution of a given style. Magma wasn't supposed to sound like L'enfant Sauvage, but it is supposed to be a more open, natural sound... does it sound as good as Meshuggah Violent Sleep of Reason, which had the same intent? Nope, it's not even close, therefore it's not a good mix. It's a bizarrely bad one for a band of Gojira's stature.


----------



## WintermintP (Jan 12, 2018)

sakeido said:


> Then get a MIDI keyboard and a sample pack and just write your albums like that. Saves lots of time. It's disappointing to see so many people completely and entirely miss the point of playing a real instrument... but on the other hand this new trendy production style is so stupid it instantly disqualifies about 98% of new releases for me and makes it actually doable to shift through what's left.
> 
> The robot sound works for that new EDM-fusion-ish-dance-y metal and basically nothing else... people don't seem to think of the studio as an instrument and their producer as another contributor who must gel with the band every bit as much as the band's full time members.



There's a difference between using a sample pack and actually recording the guitars. If you use a sample pack it wouldn't even be a robotic sound. It would just outright be a biteless cloud of nothing. There is still a difference between using samples and actually playing the guitar parts to have them time-edited to robotic perfection. The stuff I'm doing still has real playing and it's not recorded one note at a time. It's just edited to robotic perfection so that it still sounds like a song while maintaining the robotic sound.



TedEH said:


> I honestly think lots of people are just way too picky. And given that everyone has their own idea of what good or bad production even means, there will always be "bad" production because even the best production out there won't satisfy everyone.



This. Some people just happen to like robotic-sounding guitars, as long as they're not just a bunch of samples thrown together to the point I can tell right away that it was done through something like Shreddage.



sakeido said:


> re: why mixes are bad
> - band can't actually play for shit and has to go for the robot sound


Not me, because I don't use the robot sound as a crutch but as a stylistic choice.


sakeido said:


> - went with a brand new producer who is still learning (trying to save money)
> - went with an experienced producer then didn't pay him enough so he didn't give a fuck and basically used presets to mix the album (trying to save money)
> - went with an experienced producer who no longer gives a fuck (Death Magnetic) or they caught him too late in his career and his success has now gone to his head and ruined his mixes (Joey Sturgis)


Not me, because I do virtually everything myself and I've spent a shit ton of money already.


sakeido said:


> - band thought they could produce it themselves even though mixing is a skill that takes thousands of hours and dollars to get good at (After the Burial)


I have been brushing up on my mixing, so I shouldn't count in this either.


sakeido said:


> - band spent money on things not directly related to the mix, like drugs (all 80s bands) or building a studio (Gojira - Magma)


Not me, because I don't even do drugs, and the only things I spend money on that's not directly related to the mix is merch to sell, which is a necessity.


sakeido said:


> - band insisted on using their live rig in the studio, even though their stuff doesn't sit in the mix for shit (Engl players)


Not me, because virtually everything I use is software so I don't even have a live rig.


sakeido said:


> - band pays no attention to their bassist and lets him suck even though a good bass player is secretly the most important part of sounding huge


I play the bass parts myself and I really have been paying a lot of attention to my bass playing.


sakeido said:


> - band wrote songs so bad the producer can't stand to listen to them and tries to blow through his work as quickly as possible, probably by using lots of presets and Superior drummer (most djent bands)


Again, I do pretty much everything myself. And there's nothing wrong with using presets. You just have to tweak them to get them to sound better for the specific mix.

Also, again, I do record all of the parts normally. They're just quantised to perfection so that they do have a robotic feel but they also maintain that bite that comes from human playing.

I get it. There are bands that use the robot sound because they'll never be able to get anything done otherwise. Still, though, there's nothing wrong with using the robotic sound as a stylistic choice, which is what I do.




WintermintP


----------



## Element0s (Jan 12, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> I guarantee those bands would have taken more time and used better equipment if it was an option. The reason bands don't do that now is because they don't have to.


This is likely true.

I would also venture to say that in that era, being in a gigging band was probably a more viable career option which probably led to bands that rehearsed and gigged more often, which would have made them a tighter unit. Some of my favourite bands that started in the 70's and 80's said that they practiced 5 nights a week. Other bands played the club circuit 6 nights a week (eg, Twisted Sister). Factor that in with the fact that there were different (read: lower) standards of technique for rock band back then too. The idea of a blue-based rock band cutting a smash-hit album in a day's work makes a little more sense under conditions like these.


----------



## wankerness (Jan 13, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I honestly think lots of people are just way too picky. And given that everyone has their own idea of what good or bad production even means, there will always be "bad" production because even the best production out there won't satisfy everyone.



I can relate to this. That post listing a whole ton of reasons for bad production is a great example. Like, I'm sure they do sound bad to that guy, and he clearly knows what he's talking about. But to someone like me, I've probably liked examples of all of those things!

I think that I listen to music with an ear towards hearing the composition, and as a result those kinds of compressed clean albums that seem to enrage 80% of people on here sound fine to me since they're making what was written really clear.

When I think about it, though, I find this an almost identical technical situation to one I fully understand and sympathize with, which is digitization of films. With HD copies of movies, for example, we've got some of the following from bad to good:

1) Netflix/Amazon streaming - heavily compressed, shows artifacts all the time (ex, when there's a lot of dark colors on the screen pixelization will bleed through), sound is compressed trash vs "master audio" on most blu-rays

2) Blu-rays that are heavily digitally manipulated - can have all kinds of sins on them, from contrast being jacked way up to DNR being applied to scrub the grain off (even though grain is 100% unavoidable on something shot on film and taking it off takes off the detail of the film with it), sharpening being applied to make things "POP" more and make average joes think there's more detail, "scratch removal" presets being run that mistakenly slice out details of the picture, etc. Here's a famous example of #2 on the left:






Note that the 2008 one doesn't look great either, but it's not like a wax dummy. I think most "regular people" think the left one looks better cause it "pops." They also leave that messed up smoothing feature on their TV that doubles the framerate and makes everything look like a soap opera. Here's another really infamous transfer in which Disney scrubbed EVERYTHING off the frame and made it look like a colorform:






3) Good blu-rays - carefully copied off the negative, no digital manipulation other than really careful removal of scratches and damage done by hand, color timing done carefully with help of cinematographer or research, grain is still intact but minimized due to not being a scan of a film print, etc.

Most people can't tell the difference or will say category 2 looks the best cause "it has the most detail" or "there's no grain!!!" It annoys me and I think is exactly the same as say, people who get pissed when people like "loudness war" production on something.  And category 2 is absolutely destroying the integrity of whatever was filmed by replacing it with some dumbed-down, splashy version of it just designed to get peoples' attention (or to get it off the assembly line as fast as possible).

SO, this is a long way of saying, people can have legitimate complaints, but it's a lot harder to illustrate exactly what they hate and what it sounds like and what it's doing to the sound when you can't just post a screenshot of it. Like, everything that guy listed are examples of exactly how the production can get between what's being played and the listener.


----------



## gunch (Jan 13, 2018)

vilk said:


> I love the old production on ATPB and I absolutely hate the remastered re-release....



Same. The only thing from LoG I actually like because it was raw and nasty


----------



## vilk (Jan 13, 2018)

silverabyss said:


> Same. The only thing from LoG I actually like because it was raw and nasty


Well I mean, you've heard New American Gospel and Burn the Priest, right? I don't listen to NAG much but after AtPB I think the next best thing they did was Burn the Priest. Ashes is good too but as we agree it's lost that raw sound that made me like them initially.


----------



## fps (Jan 14, 2018)

mongey said:


> its art. decisions are made on the fly and sometimes they aren't the right ones in the long run .
> 
> I like Meshuggah's Nothing album allot. its one of my go to gym albums on a day when I feel like pushing hard .I only recently heard the re done version and I didn't really like it. The shortcomings sonically of the original just sound like what the album sounds like to me. its part of its strength and personality
> 
> to be honest I have never listened to AJFA and thought "this needs more bass" just sounds like AJFA to me



100% on nothing (and AJFA). The original Nothing mix is sensational. I don't consider them shortcomings even, I just turn on that album and let my mind run away.


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 14, 2018)

marcwormjim said:


> We have a shorter word for what you’re describing; and it’s “djent.” And it’s inspired a decade of ambition in fat young men to register on this site and promote their imitations of one another in hopes of eventually getting a company to like their YouTube channel. But the journey must begin by fetishizing bad, buzzy guitar sounds that you try to replicate in your bedroom.



That's basically Misha Mansoor, and look where he is now


----------



## Sogradde (Jan 14, 2018)

No offense but lots of posts in this thread are really cringeworthy. Some of you folks go full "back in my day..." grampa style instead of just acknowledging that different generations and technological advancements produce different tonal aesthetics and those are not inherently better or worse than older productions. It's a matter of taste, get over it.


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 15, 2018)

Metropolis said:


> That's basically Misha Mansoor, and look where he is now


----------



## TedEH (Jan 15, 2018)

The dynamic range of that photo is not to my liking. And I can see artifacts. I CAN SEE THE PIXELS. Photography is so much worse these days.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 15, 2018)

And what's with the colour being all washed out like that?! Especially in this day and age when everyone uses colour correction!

Back in my day, photographers had to develop their own film, so everybody had to really work on composition and lighting to make a good photo, but now that everything is digital, every bedroom photographer can drop any old image into photoshop and make a photo album with crystal clarity.

[/sarcasm]

Seriously, though, if the album you enjoy exists, but has poor quality production, at least it exists. Maybe the artist's choice was to either make it shitty or not make it at all... and if you don't like it, all you have to do is not buy/download it - it's not like poor production albums are making it on grocery-store-musak channels.


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 15, 2018)

Just leaving this in here  I wonder did people complain about production in early 20th century. Maybe not, because recording technology was just starting to exist.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 15, 2018)

Aww, what a tease. I wanted to hear a metal band on wax.


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 15, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Aww, what a tease. I wanted to hear a metal band on wax.



Me too, but it would probably just sound like a huge mess.


----------



## TedEH (Jan 15, 2018)

Metropolis said:


> Me too, but it would probably just sound like a huge mess.


So like the average metal mix then. 

I kid, I kid.

Does fit perfectly into this thread though.


----------



## InHiding (Jan 16, 2018)

Compressing a guitar so that it sounds like a 50 buck Casio is not a good production technique no matter what year it is.


----------



## fps (Jan 17, 2018)

InHiding said:


> Compressing a guitar so that it sounds like a 50 buck Casio is not a good production technique no matter what year it is.



I'm pretty sure you can get all the modern drum sounds using some Smarties packets and a desk.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Jan 19, 2018)

InHiding said:


> Compressing a guitar so that it sounds like a 50 buck Casio is not a good production technique no matter what year it is.


And kinda pointless since you can just run your Guitar Pro MIDI through a Guitar VSTi and not have spend all that time chopping up your DI track to reamp it.


----------



## Andromalia (Jan 19, 2018)

fps said:


> I'm pretty sure you can get all the modern drum sounds using some Smarties packets and a desk.



One of my buddies did an EBM song drumming on a pillow and tapping his foot on a guitar case. It...worked pretty well, actually. With lots of reverb, though.


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 19, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> And kinda pointless since you can just run your Guitar Pro MIDI through a Guitar VSTi and not have spend all that time chopping up your DI track to reamp it.



Sounds surprisingly good, but way too punchy and robotic.


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 20, 2018)

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQz6RPYDynuBv8vtTUwD4wg

^No one out-fakes Dan Griffin.


----------



## wankerness (Jan 21, 2018)

Metropolis said:


> Sounds surprisingly good, but way too punchy and robotic.



Man, what the hell? I had no idea this kind of thing was at this level. To me, I wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two, except in one riff in which he plays some fast notes on a single high string - THAT sounds like crap on the fake guitar, but everything else in the entire video would have passed by unnoticed.

Of course it would only work in those specific genres. Are there similarly believable guitars for cleans, etc?


----------



## Metropolis (Jan 21, 2018)

wankerness said:


> Man, what the hell? I had no idea this kind of thing was at this level. To me, I wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two, except in one riff in which he plays some fast notes on a single high string - THAT sounds like crap on the fake guitar, but everything else in the entire video would have passed by unnoticed.
> 
> Of course it would only work in those specific genres. Are there similarly believable guitars for cleans, etc?



They are, but vst-guitar is so even sounding that you already would know that no one couldn't really play like that.

I'm no expert of this subject, but for example this guys music is fully done with vst-instruments. Production is amazing, and music is also top notch. There should be some clean guitars as well.


----------



## wankerness (Jan 21, 2018)

Yeah, that sounds pretty incredible apart from the wind instruments. The articulations on the grace notes and flutters on those all sound like crap. I guess I"ll have to look into VSTis again, I haven't used one since about 2006.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 23, 2018)

Metropolis said:


> Just leaving this in here  I wonder did people complain about production in early 20th century. Maybe not, because recording technology was just starting to exist.




Actually, that turned out significantly better than I expected.


----------



## skeeballcore (Jan 23, 2018)

Malmsteen is crazy and probably didn’t want the vocals to overshadow his guitar playing

I’ll give Metallica the benefit of the doubt. I think for their first post Cliff record they didn’t want anyone drawing comparisons with him and the new guy.

There’s a litany of reasons a mix can sound bad starting from the note played to the mastering engineer.

I have more problems with things like some of the mid-00s Foo Fighters stuff that’s just disgustingly distorted for no reason I can fathom.


----------

