# Alternate Picking versus Economy Picking?



## AshtonXIII (Jun 16, 2014)

Do you prefer alternate or economy picking? Or both? Which should I learn?


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## mcsalty (Jun 16, 2014)

AshtonXIII said:


> Do you prefer alternate or economy picking? Or both? Which should I learn?



Definitely learn both.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 16, 2014)

Both have they're advantages and help you with dynamics.


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## karjim (Jun 16, 2014)

Like Guthrie says all the time...Learn first strict Alternate picking and then when you're a monster drill machine ( 2 notes-3 notes- 4 notes per string) you can start to focus on each movement and develop economy Gambale picking...But it's a brain surgery.
I prefer to spend my time on hybrid picking (alternate and hammer/pull off) like Petrucci Gilbert Lane Govan Vai etc...I think this Gambale insane training is not the way I wanna play the guitar.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 16, 2014)

I agree and disagree at the same time.

I am self thaught and I unconsciously learnt economy picking and played for long time that way.
My economy picking is much faster and much relaxed than my alternate, but it's not good for certain movements/fingerings.
If you play a fast 3 notes per string run it's very serviceable but lacks some attack.
If you're an economy picker 2 fast notes per string are your worst nightmare.

I'm always trying to correct and perfect my technique and working loads on alternate.

What I want to say is that imho it's harder to learn one technique and then the other rather than learning both at the same time.

The guitarist's ultimate goal is "control", control your finger, control your wrist, and I think that learning both alternate and economy at the same time might create confusion in your head at first, but ultimately teaches your brain much better how to use your wrist in the most efficient way.

Drilling a technique for years like you suggest, then learning another one is much more fatiguing than learning both at the same time.


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## Maniacal (Jun 16, 2014)

2 notes per string with economy picking across 2 strings is very easy. 

I would say you should focus on alternate to begin with as it has more applications than economy. When you are comfortable with alternate, add some economy exercises in too.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 16, 2014)

Maniacal said:


> 2 notes per string with economy picking across 2 strings is very easy.



How?
Let's take a common 5th position A minor pentatonic starting from 6th string.
On 6th string you play 5 with downstroke, 8 with upstroke, 5th string 5 with downstroke and this is alternate.

It changes if you start 5 fret on 6th string with upstroke then play 8 fret with downstroke and 5 fret on 5th string with downstroke, but then you have again 7 fret on upstroke and you can't go to 4th string 5 fret with an upstroke.


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## TeeWX (Jun 16, 2014)

karjim said:


> I prefer to spend my time on hybrid picking (alternate and hammer/pull off) like Petrucci Gilbert Lane Govan Vai etc...I think this Gambale insane training is not the way I wanna play the guitar.



Explain more please? I thought Hybrid picking combined the use of both finger and pick.


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## Maniacal (Jun 16, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> How?
> Let's take a common 5th position A minor pentatonic starting from 6th string.
> On 6th string you play 5 with downstroke, 8 with upstroke, 5th string 5 with downstroke and this is alternate.
> 
> It changes if you start 5 fret on 6th string with upstroke then play 8 fret with downstroke and 5 fret on 5th string with downstroke, but then you have again 7 fret on upstroke and you can't go to 4th string 5 fret with an upstroke.



Thats why I said it works on 2 strings


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 17, 2014)

Maniacal said:


> Thats why I said it works on 2 strings



Indeed. 
Sorry, I read too many 2s and got lost there


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## karjim (Jun 17, 2014)

Well...try this on Youtube "paul gilbert hammer pull off" "shawn lane power licks" "petrucci alternate picking"
The shawn lane video is out of this world but this is hybrid picking !!
gilbert has great video..."up down hammerhammer up pull off " that kind of shit.
The technique combines strict alternatepicking with some hammer pull off ...Really really hard to learn those licks because you have to start so slow !
If you wanna see a great solo with this technique look at "paul gilbert insane solo" he has long hair no shirt a red spandex and white ibanez...I think it s in Japan during the 90's with Mr Big


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## ncfiala (Jun 17, 2014)

I guess I pretty much economy pick exclusively. My hands have always pretty much just done what is most efficient without me ever having to think about it and I'm not going to train myself out of that. Take my advice with a grain of salt though cause I suck at picking. I've been doing so much two-handed tapping lately that I've barely even touched a pick in weeks.


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## metaldoggie (Jun 17, 2014)

Learn all types......at the end of the day what matters is how the music you are playing sounds. If a particular phrase doesn't work in alternate, then try something else.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 17, 2014)

Does anyone actually pay attention to how they're picking something that much? I really only even notice it once I can't play something and have to slow down to figure out where I'm messing up. At which point I take note of which one I naturally wanna do, assess which one would be easiest for me in the situation at hand and practice it slowly that way. 

Often I see that other ppl finger, pick and/or play the same things as me in a number of ways based solely--at least so it would seem--on what is most comfortable for them.


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## metaldoggie (Jun 17, 2014)

Sometimes I make a mistake and slow down what I am doing. Often I find there is a difference between how I think I'm playing and what I am actually doing.


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## Grindspine (Jun 17, 2014)

I tend toward the most economic movements. However, strict alternate picking will help you improve timing quite a bit.

Of course, when dynamic emphases is needed, use all down strums.


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## Alex6534 (Jun 17, 2014)

Until recently I've hardly touched economy picking and was solely an alternate picker, mostly by habit being self taught, I can see economy picking being very useful and 'economic' (see what I did there?) for some licks, mixing and matching makes for some interesting textures.


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## Andless (Jun 17, 2014)

I wouldn't mind getting better at economy picking, its a nice idea.

Myself, I'm 99.9% alternate picker for most things. My first instinct is to alternate picking arpeggios as well, although not always the best choice


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 18, 2014)

Andless said:


> I wouldn't mind getting better at economy picking, its a nice idea.
> 
> Myself, I'm 99.9% alternate picker for most things. My first instinct is to alternate picking arpeggios as well, although not always the best choice



That's not wrong per se if you play under 70-80 bpm.


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## 80H (Jun 18, 2014)

"Versus" implies competition... there is no versus. Drill vs. hammer, which do you prefer? or both? Which should I buy?


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## Andless (Jun 18, 2014)

80H said:


> "Versus" implies competition... there is no versus. Drill vs. hammer, which do you prefer? or both? Which should I buy?



The hammer ofcourse!

Then everything will become nails


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## redstone (Jun 19, 2014)

All in all, I guess it's a matter of character. I recommend focusing on alt picking if you're an adrenaline whore who strives for phrasing diversity at high speed. Here's why :

- When it comes to "shred", alt picking is way more exhilarating. Once you become an advanced alt picker, you realize that sweeping isn't physically and emotionally satisfying at high speed. Too many notes for too few moves. Depends how much you're physically invested...

- You can't be a great economy picker without mastering inside and outside picking. Yet, once you fully master them, you don't need to rely on sweep picking anymore (not many examples yet but that's true nonetheless). And guess what's the best way to master them.. Alt picking arpeggios. (However, learning to mix inside outside and sweep still requires a specific training)

- [down the rabbit hole] sweeping strings can't allow to skip strings many times in a row above half your potential alternate picking speed since you have to spend a full gestural cycle to skip something when sweeping, no matter how you mix your gestures, while alternate picking 1note/string oversteps easily such limits if you know how to practice it (half cycle per skip). That's hundred of times more detrimental for your phrasing diversity than not being able to arpeggiate above the alternate picking speed. [/down the rabbit hole]

That said, economy picking almost only requires patience and discipline to learn, while alternate picking (arpeggios and all) requires either lots and lots of luck or knowledge.


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## AshtonXIII (Jun 20, 2014)

80H said:


> "Versus" implies competition... there is no versus. Drill vs. hammer, which do you prefer? or both? Which should I buy?



You're really dumb. Look up the definition and it will say "as opposed to".


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## AxeHappy (Jun 20, 2014)

I economy pick far more often, but am fully capable of alt picking accurately and quickly.

Learn both. Having more tools in the box is always good.


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## flint757 (Jun 20, 2014)

I use economy picking personally. I can still get whatever dynamic I need while doing so as well. Hitting the string from the bottom or top doesn't solely determine that anyhow. It's how much force you put into it.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 20, 2014)

flint757 said:


> I use economy picking personally. I can still get whatever dynamic I need while doing so as well. Hitting the string from the bottom or top doesn't solely determine that anyhow. It's how much force you put into it.





power and timing...


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## 80H (Jun 20, 2014)

AshtonXIII said:


> You're really dumb. Look up the definition and it will say "as opposed to".





perhaps it would suit you well to look up the definition of "implies" before you start getting disrespectful on a forum centered around communal learning


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 20, 2014)




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## viesczy (Jun 20, 2014)

When you have both hands synchronized to the point where they sound like a playing card in the spokes of a bike that is going 100 mph, then progress to other picking styles. Until then, always work on your alt picking. 

I still warm up doing alt picking drills. A few of the 96 various 4 note per string/finger drills and then Scarified in one of 3 positions. 

Not working/keeping up on alt picking is like not breathing.

Derek


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## redstone (Jun 21, 2014)

Also, the reality is far from what the rumor says about alt picking being too rough to replace sweep picking. Even if I sweep as gently as possible in mid gain / bridge pickup mode,

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/humanseeming/alternate-vs-economy-not-much-differences[/SC]

I don't think anyone would notice I'm alt picking everything in a mix unless I palm mute everything.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 21, 2014)

AshtonXIII said:


> Do you prefer alternate or economy picking? Or both? Which should I learn?



Both. When I alt pick, I prefer to start on an upstroke versus the typical downstroke.


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## karjim (Jun 21, 2014)

viesczy said:


> When you have both hands synchronized to the point where they sound like a playing card in the spokes of a bike that is going 100 mph, then progress to other picking styles. Until then, always work on your alt picking.
> 
> I still warm up doing alt picking drills. A few of the 96 various 4 note per string/finger drills and then Scarified in one of 3 positions.
> 
> ...


 I do exactly the same thing, except it's Technical Difficulties and Vivaldi 4 seasons....not the Mustaine one 
I really like 2 notes per string to warm up too...It relax my right hand and synchronize the other...3 notes per string is still the hardest trick for me, I bust my ass as soon as I have 15 minutes free at home...So Vivaldi


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 22, 2014)

redstone said:


> Also, the reality is far from what the rumor says about alt picking being too rough to replace sweep picking. Even if I sweep as gently as possible in mid gain / bridge pickup mode,
> 
> [SC]https://soundcloud.com/humanseeming/alternate-vs-economy-not-much-differences[/SC]
> 
> I don't think anyone would notice I'm alt picking everything in a mix unless I palm mute everything.



That goes very much in how you want to sound like.
It's a matter of preference and...it's really good to be able to do both, then choose your way.
Guthrie prefers tapping to sweep BUT he's able to sweep.
Christian Muenzner was a very good sweeper but due to his problem with the mid finger he had to resort to tapping.
When you're a monster with both you can say that you prefer how a techniqie sounds instead of another, otherwise you're simply unable to due one technique as good as the other. 

Since we're at it, what do you consider "fast"?
1/16 at what bpm?


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## redstone (Jun 22, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Since we're at it, what do you consider "fast"?
> 1/16 at what bpm?



I don't consider speed in terms of notes per second but gestural frequency ; I'd say (being, not sounding) fast &#8776; 6-8 gfps , 9+ is very fast.

Which means fast alt picked arpeggios &#8776;180-240 bpm
Fast sweep picked arpeggios &#8776; not going to happen, sweep picking is a slow motion.

A fast alt picker IMO should be able to play anything above 180 bpm, so I'm still a bit slow, especially with those stupid violin-like arpeggios 

[YOUTUBEVID]ckNsJYTNUcg[/YOUTUBEVID]


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## Maniacal (Jun 22, 2014)

I would say fast would be 180 16ths for 3 minutes straight.


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## Andless (Jun 22, 2014)

redstone said:


> Which means fast alt picked arpeggios &#8776;180-240 bpm
> Fast sweep picked arpeggios &#8776; not going to happen, sweep picking is a slow motion.



I'm the first to admit, alt picking arpeggios @ 1/16 @ 180? Not quite there yet, I've got some work to do still... 

Edit: Although, inside-outside picking when alt picking arpeggios never bothered me much. Never thought that would be something difficult until I heard someone say it is.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jun 23, 2014)

I use a combination of economy and directional picking for almost everything that is a string of single notes, deliberate downstrokes for accents and chords, and of course the occasional upstroked chord(s).

I never really thought about it at all when I was learning, I merely aimed to make my picking movements efficient.

I can't really recommend anything in particular, since I am far, FAR from a deity when it comes to picking.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 23, 2014)

redstone said:


> I don't consider speed in terms of notes per second but gestural frequency ; I'd say (being, not sounding) fast &#8776; 6-8 gfps , 9+ is very fast.
> 
> Which means fast alt picked arpeggios &#8776;180-240 bpm
> Fast sweep picked arpeggios &#8776; not going to happen, sweep picking is a slow motion.
> ...



Damn you for putting in my mind this silly alternate picking arpeggios stuff 
I found myself doing it.
Wasn't very clean but immediately at decent speed.
It has its "reasons" but I prefer using a 2 notes per string shape skipping a string than using a classic standard sweep shape.
By the way, what do you mean with "gfps"?



Maniacal said:


> I would say fast would be 180 16ths for 3 minutes straight.



Love how you put it in the 3 minutes windows frame


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## redstone (Jun 23, 2014)

gf means gestural (or gesture ?) frequency, gfps is how many times you can repeat the same action per second..



Andless said:


> Edit: Although, inside-outside picking when alt picking arpeggios never bothered me much. Never thought that would be something difficult until I heard someone say it is.



Yeah it isn't difficult per se, but in order to play it fast and learn quickly there are many traps which are difficult to detect and avoid.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 23, 2014)

I asked in the chat earlier if I was the only one to prefer starting alt picking patterns with an upstroke, and I was glad to find out that I am not alone in that regard, though a few of them had different circumstances where they did this, whereas I generally find that I do it for most if not all alt picked ideas as far as leads go.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jun 24, 2014)

^I nearly always start with a downstroke, but I know there are certain types of rhythms that are much easier if you start on an upstroke.


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## jase (Jun 30, 2014)

Learn both, and also hybrid picking. And get comfortable with them to a point where each type is no more difficult than the other. At that point, you will not notice if you actually using alternate or economy picking. And you can throw in hybrid picking when you are playing something with a lot of string skipping, etc. 

I don't pay attention to which technique I use when I learn/write, but I pay attention to if I am playing the riff effortlessly with the required dynamics. If not, I access my right hand and adjust accordingly.


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