# Misha: "just have fun with it"



## Hollowway (Mar 15, 2018)

*[MOD EDIT: This thread has been merged with 'Making money touring?']*


So, on Facebook Fred ("the Shred" Brum) shared the Ultimate Guitar interview with Misha, where Misha said that he can't make enough money in Periphery to live, and needs supplemental income. But, it seems there's some debate as to whether that's generally true for all modern metal bands. Alain (who used to post on here) said, "If you can pack a club with a size of 1000 in any city you go to, then you can charge a guarantee of 20K per show. That is the truth no matter what he or anyone else says. Then you play 20 shows per month and make 400K. 200K is what you keep after touring expenses. 130K is profit for the band. You do that 8 months out of the year and each band member profits over 200K oper year and only has to work for 8 months with 4 months off and 10 days off per month. There is no excuse in todays market. You can still get rich, you just have to have a draw and actually tour. Now take my numbers and imagine a band who can sell out places with capacities of 10,000 or bands that have less than 5 members. Either Periphery doesnt have a live draw or they simply dont want to tour anymore and this is their way of telling booking agents and clubs that they will start asking for more money."

I've never been in a band big enough to compare with Periphery (we were lucky to make a few hundred a night playing mostly covers), so I have no reference. But, 1000 people doesn't sound like a super difficult number to get to. So is this true? Like, can you make a lot of money touring? I always thought touring was mostly promoting, and not likely to make a huge amount of money. But, with music streaming (and a lack of album sales) is this now the way it is?


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## budda (Mar 15, 2018)

It depends on how you tour.

1. 15 seater and a trailer versus bandwagon versus bus
2. Sleeping in the van or at friends with only the odd motel/hotel stop versus minimal rooms for the band versus a room per member
3. bringing crew (photographer, guitar/drum tech, merch person, driver) versus doing it all yourselves or with 1 extra person
4. Selling a lot of merch versus a little (and the fact that some venues take a cut of your merch sales, which is *insane*)

It also depends on what your expenses are at home. Do you have a car at all, if so how nice? Do you live in an expensive area? Do you spend way too much on things you don't need then complain that you don't make enough money?

I can't answer that for Misha or any other members of other bands. I can completely agree with the idea that if you want to make a *decent* living in the music business, you need to diversify how you're getting paid.

If our band can make enough where no members have band bills to pay, I'm going to be really excited. If we can do better then that, I will consider every effort since joining a smashing success.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 15, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> So, on Facebook Fred ("the Shred" Brum) shared the Ultimate Guitar interview with Misha, where Misha said that he can't make enough money in Periphery to live, and needs supplemental income. But, it seems there's some debate as to whether that's generally true for all modern metal bands. Alain (who used to post on here) said, "If you can pack a club with a size of 1000 in any city you go to, then you can charge a guarantee of 20K per show. That is the truth no matter what he or anyone else says. Then you play 20 shows per month and make 400K. 200K is what you keep after touring expenses. 130K is profit for the band. You do that 8 months out of the year and each band member profits over 200K oper year and only has to work for 8 months with 4 months off and 10 days off per month. There is no excuse in todays market. You can still get rich, you just have to have a draw and actually tour. Now take my numbers and imagine a band who can sell out places with capacities of 10,000 or bands that have less than 5 members. Either Periphery doesnt have a live draw or they simply dont want to tour anymore and this is their way of telling booking agents and clubs that they will start asking for more money."
> 
> I've never been in a band big enough to compare with Periphery (we were lucky to make a few hundred a night playing mostly covers), so I have no reference. But, 1000 people doesn't sound like a super difficult number to get to. So is this true? Like, can you make a lot of money touring? I always thought touring was mostly promoting, and not likely to make a huge amount of money. But, with music streaming (and a lack of album sales) is this now the way it is?


>not making enough money to live
>owns porsche and fancy pants watches

Unless lightbulb produces his w-2 to say otherwise, I'd assume he's making pretty decent money between the constant touring and whatever cut he gets from jackson/horizon/bkp/merch/spotify, etc.
1000 people is a lot of bodies, I don't know if periphery can consistently pack shows in like that.
Besides I don't think Alain ever toured with any group big enough to take his word as gospel.


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## Winspear (Mar 16, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> >not making enough money to live
> >owns porsche and fancy pants watches
> 
> Unless lightbulb produces his w-2 to say otherwise, I'd assume he's making pretty decent money between the constant touring and whatever cut he gets from jackson/horizon/bkp/merch/spotify, etc.
> ...



He's a businessman dude, a very busy one and cleverly utilising his popularity as a musician to make his business ventures successful. Periphery in general are the perfect model of how to make money in the modern music industry - diversifying. And this is the point he is trying to get across, what the interview was about. Records/touring isn't going to cut it anymore.



Hollowway said:


> Like, can you make a lot of money touring? I always thought touring was mostly promoting, and not likely to make a huge amount of money. But, with music streaming (and a lack of album sales) is this now the way it is?



I've been hearing for a long time that bands make money from touring+merch these days rather than records, so I guess so.

I'd love to analyse a complete breakdown of income and expenses from a bunch of bands, because as a businessman myself whilst I understand expenses really add up to a huge degree, I honestly am very surprised at some of these bands claims about not making money. I know traditional record deals were a bitch to recoup from, but many bands now seem much more sensible about deals and record production, and are still selling a ton of records even if it's way less than before. But everyone seems to agree there is no money in it, so I believe it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 16, 2018)

There are so many factors at play here that it's impossible to really say for sure whether someone can make real money from touring.

Also, if you have a minute, look up Alain's posts here [username: Leonardo7], yeah, I probably won't treat what he says as gospel either.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 16, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> >not making enough money to live
> >owns porsche and fancy pants watches
> 
> Unless lightbulb produces his w-2 to say otherwise, I'd assume he's making pretty decent money between the constant touring and whatever cut he gets from jackson/horizon/bkp/merch/spotify, etc.
> ...


Yeah, it does seem questionable. Perhaps he just doesn't manage his money well. Who knows. But if that were the case, I would probably get a cheaper car and more generic watches.


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## Winspear (Mar 16, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah, it does seem questionable. Perhaps he just doesn't manage his money well. Who knows. But if that were the case, I would probably get a cheaper car and more generic watches.



Read my post above  His money doesn't come 'from the band'. The full interview with Rick is well worth watching


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## Stilicho (Mar 16, 2018)

Winspear said:


> Read my post above  His money doesn't come 'from the band'. The full interview with Rick is well worth watching



Watched this yesterday and it's a great interview.

Still find Holloway's points interesting though, hopefully more people can chime in.


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## Humbuck (Mar 16, 2018)

Try touring on any level and see all the money you'll soon be rolling in...


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## bostjan (Mar 16, 2018)

There are a lot of layers to this situation.

I've been in only a couple almost-seriously touring bands. To say that it's a lot of work to throw together a DIY tour would be an understatement. It's a lot of phone calling and tracking people down and that's not even dealing with flaky musicians yet.

If you just want to tour and play and tour and play, then you will lose money, guaranteed. Not many venues are willing to pay even a penny to a touring original band if they don't have to. Some places might think that they're being extra kind by offering you a bag of popcorn and a toilet. As far as merch goes, you and your bandmates might end up giving most of it away, so selling those $7 shirts at $15/each and coming back from touring with an entire box of small and half a box of medium shirts, because you didn't understand that people aren't all an even distribution of sizes, means that you lost a little money on merch as well.

Then there's the more-preapred tour. Say you aren't the only one making phone calls, and you actually have your band sort of organized with google calendars synchronized and open-source contacts lists and you have a decent idea what sort of merch will sell well and you know which venues to play at for which reasons, and say your band has just enough name recognition to get your foot in the door at said venues... Then, it is possible to make an income from touring, but it's still going to be rough - somewhat for other reasons. The more people come to see your band, the more shenanigans you get into with people trashing/stealing your stuff, people assaulting each other during shows, band mates getting stupid, etc.

I really think it sounds unrealistic for an indie band to make $400k/month even in the dream scenario, but if you get on a decent roll, I could see $20k/month being a realistic expectation, but, in most cases, you are going to have a vehicle break down, you are going to lose whatever most expensive piece of band equipment you have, and someone in the band is either going to be arrested and need to be bailed out, or be injured and need to be rushed to the ER. So your $20k minus unexpected expenses is more like $500, then split that four or five ways and it will seem like you made the worst financial decision of your life by going on tour. But, honestly, if you are enjoying yourself, and you don't have dependents at home, then it's worth it. Maybe I'm overly cynical and/or have shit luck, but that's my take in a nutshell.


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## TedEH (Mar 16, 2018)

I've toured a grand total of once - and it was a very small, diy, frugal kind of venture: Sleeping on promoters floors and in the van, carrying a minimum of gear, no crew, just four dudes crammed into one vehicle and getting by with what we've got. Of all the bands I've played for this was the most popular, and sold a decent amount of merch, lots of vinyl and shirts and stuff going for reasonable prices. But it was clearly a loss financially, no matter how you stretch it.


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## Womb raider (Mar 16, 2018)

I've had an opportunity to speak in depth with a guitarist from a well known DM band how being a musician isn't as lucrative as most people think. 
For him, making records and the recording process was pretty much a wash with the costs being involved. The upside is this gives them new material to tour with. On tour, management and promoters get a healthy cut so merch is a big source of income.
Most of these guys supplant their income with other means, such as skype lessons when they aren't touring. Any other endorsements can go a long way, especially things like free guitars which is a huge expense.
Compound that with the fact you could be playing in bumblefuck USA as a niche metal genre band on a Tuesday night, good luck getting a draw.
Packing a club with 1000 people on a nightly basis is not easy even if your name is pretty recognizable. I've seen 3 of the "big 4" bands playing to a half empty venue on a weeknight.


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## bostjan (Mar 16, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> I've had an opportunity to speak in depth with a guitarist from a well known DM band how being a musician isn't as lucrative as most people think.
> For him, making records and the recording process was pretty much a wash with the costs being involved. The upside is this gives them new material to tour with. On tour, management and promoters get a healthy cut so merch is a big source of income.
> Most of these guys supplant their income with other means, such as skype lessons when they aren't touring. Any other endorsements can go a long way, especially things like free guitars which is a huge expense.
> Compound that with the fact you could be playing in bumblefuck USA as a niche metal genre band on a Tuesday night, good luck getting a draw.
> Packing a club with 1000 people on a nightly basis is not easy even if your name is pretty recognizable. I've seen 3 of the "big 4" bands playing to a half empty venue on a weeknight.



Exactly. When I saw Anthrax, there were *maybe* 200 people there. Maybe it was a slow night for them, but, being the fourth biggest band in thrash, I expected more of a turnout.

Let's be realistic here. No matter how good your band is, it is not going to pull as many people as Anthrax, in general. Metal isn't as popular as it was, and even if you are the most popular rookie band, you'll still start out as a rookie band. If you plan out a tour, there is no way in hell that you are going to be able to get ~1000 butts in seats consistently 5-6 nights/week. I'm not buying it.

I support bands when they come through my area. Like, a lot. Other people who go out to local concerts have told me many times that they are impressed with how I'm at every show. When a death metal band or prog metal band comes through town, I get psyched. They come play to a crowd of sometimes 6-7 people, and I enjoy the hell out of the show. Chances are that I paid $10 or less to get in. Chances are that ticket sales were under $100 in revenue. Chances are that these bands didn't have a deep-pocket sponsor to pad their revenue. So, they probably just played their asses off for nothing more than the fact that I, along with maybe a couple other people, enjoyed the hell out of the show.

Granted, I live in the middle of nowhere, but it was absolutely no different in Indianapolis, nor in Detroit. The average touring band coming through town playing on a weekday night would expect to play for <100 people. I saw freaking Dream Theater, after _Awake_, one of their most acclaimed albums, play in a parking lot in Detroit to a crowd of maybe 70-80 people. It was awesome, but keep in mind that this was a signed band with a syndicated radio hit playing in a city with a large metal base at a time when metal was still cool, and it was a pretty well promoted show. If your band now is in the same shoes DT was in then, playing the same sort of show, I think you'd expect to see maybe 2/3rds of that crowd at best, so maybe 50 people.

Say your new band is reasonably successful for a metal band, and you are playing shows like the above 3 nights a week, plus 2 bigger weekend shows where you open up for different bands with stronger followings, and you're making, in terms of revenue including merch, $500 for weeknight shows and $2500 for weekend shows. I think, honestly, that's pretty much on the edge of realistic. $6k/week. That's for the entire band and before expenses. Say our promoters take, on average, roughly half. Now you are at $3k/week. Split that up four ways, and say you set half of your income aside for the IRS. You're at about $400/week...on a banner week. Now throw in a couple shitty weeks where you lose money and mostly mediocre weeks where you make half that, and you're looking, more realistically at $200/week per band member, for your freshman tour, if everything goes spectacularly.

Or, if you have my luck, your tour van breaks down, your singer has an epiphany and abandons your band one night, your speaker cab fries itself, and someone spills beer on your pedalboard. You successfully toured for only 8 weeks, made $1600, but spent $1100 on van repairs and $750 replacing/repairing broken gear, so you really just lost $250. But you had a hell of a time.


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## budda (Mar 16, 2018)

People here also need to realize that metal bands are a small market compared to rock, hip hop and pop music.

Also, who here thinks guitarists in touring bands need to buy a guitar a year? If you're doing that, frankly you need to re-assess your priorities.

Touring is a break-even or loss event for most bands at the regional level, because those bands have bills to pay whether they're on the road or not. That's why some bands try to do as much themselves as possible.


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## Drew (Mar 16, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> So, on Facebook Fred ("the Shred" Brum) shared the Ultimate Guitar interview with Misha, where Misha said that he can't make enough money in Periphery to live, and needs supplemental income. But, it seems there's some debate as to whether that's generally true for all modern metal bands. Alain (who used to post on here) said, "If you can pack a club with a size of 1000 in any city you go to, then you can charge a guarantee of 20K per show. That is the truth no matter what he or anyone else says. Then you play 20 shows per month and make 400K. 200K is what you keep after touring expenses. 130K is profit for the band. You do that 8 months out of the year and each band member profits over 200K oper year and only has to work for 8 months with 4 months off and 10 days off per month. There is no excuse in todays market. You can still get rich, you just have to have a draw and actually tour.



Some of these numbers, frankly, don't make sense.


"pack a club with a size of 1000." I don't think you realize how hard this is to do. For one, the "big" venues that book touring metal bands in town, that arent stadiums or arenas, aren't a heck of a lot bigger than that - the Orpheum in Boston is 2700 capacity, the House of Blues is 2500, and I've seen Opeth, Satriani, Dream Theater, and Steven Wilson fail to sell them out. The Middle East, what I would subjectively call the "best" venue for unsigned metal in the city, has its largest stage at capacity of 575.
"charge a guarantee of $20k a show." To do that, if you're selling 1,000 tickets, you would need to have a ticket price of $20 to merely cover your retainer, without covering other expenses for the club. To split 50-50 with the band, you're talking $40 a ticket, and more realistically $50 since we know the bands don't have an equal amount of negotiating power here. Now, when's the last time you paid $50, or even $20, for an independent band? Looking at the Middle East again, tonight's show has general admission tickets for $12. The next show with a musician I recognize is Stu Hamm and his solo band tomorrow night, and they're selling tickets in kind of an interesting manner, $25 for one, or buy-one-get-one for 2. Either way, this is a 575 person venue, so even if every single person bought one individually and didn't take advantage of the BOGO pricing, IF he sold out, the venue would see a max of $14,375 in revenue, and if they split evenly, Stu would get a little more than $7k. That's assuming you're the only band playing, and you don't also have to share the bill with another act, who will ALSO want to get paid.
20 shows a month. Ok, but that means you're playing a different city every night, which means in addition to the show, you and your band are also driving to a city far enough away that you can sell 1,000 tickets there, and not have already cannibalized all your fans who just saw your show the night before in a different city. So, one hour set, an hour of breakdown and setup at either end, and let's say a 5 hour drive... 8 hours of "work" we'll say. Incidentally, 20 shows a month and 1,000 tickets a show means you're playing for 20,000 fans a month. To keep that up for 8 months out of the year, you need 160,000 people to come out to see you live. That, to me, doesn't sound like an independent band.
Touring expenses, profits, etc. These are all estimations, and unsubstantiated. I'd love to see where you're getting them.

So, if the best metal venue in town for independent bands holds 575 and charges $12 a head, and this is Boston, a city where we have tons of people and everything is expensive, how do you expect to get a $20k guarantee from a venue once, much less 160 nights a year??


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 16, 2018)

I saw periphery a few years ago at station 4 (a smaller venue in st. paul) and the place was packed with maybe 200 people. They were touring with Scale the Summit and Fair to Midland (who broke up literally because they couldn't make any money touring). 
I saw Mastodon a few years ago on their Hunter tour with Opeth and they had the place filled with people (capacity is around 3500). 
The first time I saw Dream Theater with Scale the Summit there was maybe 500 people in the audience (capacity at Roy Wilkins is 5000).
I saw Muse at Target Center (it seats close to 20,000)-they had the place packed. 
Trivium and Slipknot played the Xcel center years ago on co-headlining tour (this is shogun era trivium) and had the place damn near packed(which fits close to 20,000 people). Some metal and rock bands definitely have the draw and can pull 1000+ people in certain areas, but I highly doubt they can do it consistently, especially one as niche as Periphery. 

I think we all get that touring and selling records is a very outdated way of trying to make money in this day and age, and that bands have to diversify (hence why in my other post I mentioned him getting cuts from merch/endorsements/streaming). That's not in question, the thing that's bugging me (and obviously other people in this thread) is the number of fans needed to show up to each venue to be profitable.
So based off the monthly listeners/number of followers on Spotify alone (247,734 and 159,633 respectively) and assuming that they actually get 250k people to show up to their shows at 20$ a ticket. that's 5 mil in gross revenue. assuming the venues/promoters take their cuts (we'll say periphery gets 25% of the cut), then they're looking at 1.25mil for the whole band (not including merch) which breaks down to 200k per person in the band. On the flipside, let's say they get a quarter of the followers to show up at the same ticket price(40k*20) and now they're looking at 30K gross per person in the band, which is definitely not a livable wage, especially if you live in DC, and bought a porsche/some fancy watches. 

Granted this is all just assumptions/extrapolations since I can't find any hard sales data on their tours.


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## bostjan (Mar 16, 2018)

Wait, how did we go from Periphery playing with two other bands for 200 people to them playing to 250k people? Is that assuming they play 1250 shows a year?! Also, $20/ticket split with two other bands is less than $7 per person per band...I'm not following the maths...but oddly get basically the same result. 

By my count:

200 people per show
3 bands per show
$20 per ticket
~200 shows/year
200 people x 200 shows x $20 / 3 bands = $266 666.67 per band per year.

Say the promoters and venues take a flat rate of half, and your operating expenses to make the tour happen are roughly $20k, then you have four people in the band, and you have to set aside 50% of your income for the IRS.

((($266 666.67 / 2) - $20 000) / 4) / 2 = $14 166.67 take home


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## Drew (Mar 16, 2018)

Yeah, once you start to look at the numbers, there's essentially no way you can make a living wage as a band on the road most nights of the year unless you have thousands of people coming to every show you play, and that's not the sort of success your typical guitarist can realistically hope to achieve. 

Not that there's any guarantee I would have found my way into a critically successful touring band anyway, but the fact that there's no money in it anymore is a big part of the reason I never tried to treat music as anything more serious than a personal creative outlet, and instead focused on my professional career. I'd like to retire one day, you know?


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## Hollowway (Mar 16, 2018)

Well, what you guys are saying makes way more sense. When I looked at those numbers I started to think maybe I should quit my day job and start touring.  It's a sad state of affairs, for sure, but hopefully musicians will figure out ways to work around the loss of album sales, and other changes that make life difficult.


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## technomancer (Mar 16, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Well, what you guys are saying makes way more sense. When I looked at those numbers I started to think maybe I should quit my day job and start touring.  It's a sad state of affairs, for sure, but hopefully musicians will figure out ways to work around the loss of album sales, and other changes that make life difficult.



Yeah if you look Alain was never the brightest bulb on the christmas tree... so not surprised his numbers don't add up 

Also the endorsement / product development / production revenue is exactly what Misha was talking about as far as additional revenue to make a living. He has been very good at building that stuff up and using the band's success to create additional revenue streams to be able to live well.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 16, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Wait, how did we go from Periphery playing with two other bands for 200 people to them playing to 250k people? Is that assuming they play 1250 shows a year?! Also, $20/ticket split with two other bands is less than $7 per person per band...I'm not following the maths...but oddly get basically the same result.
> 
> By my count:
> 
> ...


I was talking in terms of total number of attendees/fans across all their shows on a given tour. Doesn't matter since even if they had 40 stops on their tour worldwide and got 1000 people at each venue, they'd still be poor.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 17, 2018)

They still have legal representation, business manager and tour manager to pay, along with the recording advance from the record label.


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## budda (Mar 17, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Well, what you guys are saying makes way more sense. When I looked at those numbers I started to think maybe I should quit my day job and start touring.  It's a sad state of affairs, for sure, but hopefully musicians will figure out ways to work around the loss of album sales, and other changes that make life difficult.



You keep the day job to afford the touring.


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## lurè (Mar 17, 2018)

Unless you are Metallica, touring in not a great source of income for a band.

N°1 source reamains your wallet.


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## HUGH JAYNUS (Mar 17, 2018)

Ive seen Periphery 3 times here in SLC, Utah. They didn’t have an impressive turnout. But the scene here is dying. They barely did the same as the most impressive local bands ive seen here. So it wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t make much.

And also, come on. You’ve seen how expensive their taste in stuff is. They probably make enough to live. But not to continue buying all the expensive equipment and gear and computers and all that stuff. Which is where the supplemental income is probably going. They’re not as popular as you think. At least where it counts for making money.

Periphery is more popular with gear nerds and people sitting around on the internet and forums. They aren’t exactly Metallica or whatever


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## HUGH JAYNUS (Mar 17, 2018)

Hell. I believe I had a better turnout for my old band than when I saw Periphery on the P2 tour at the same venue


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 17, 2018)

Being a Periphery fan means my disposable income goes toward buying the gear some of the members hype, rather than anything that may fund them directly.


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## buriedoutback (Mar 17, 2018)

Drew said:


> Not that there's any guarantee I would have found my way into a critically successful touring band anyway, but the fact that there's no money in it anymore is a big part of the reason I never tried to treat music as anything more serious than a personal creative outlet, and instead focused on my professional career. I'd like to retire one day, you know?


QFT
From day 1 I knew that playing metal was never going to pay my bills, so I treated it as a hobby.


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## narad (Mar 17, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Also the endorsement / product development / production revenue is exactly what Misha was talking about as far as additional revenue to make a living. He has been very good at building that stuff up and using the band's success to create additional revenue streams to be able to live well.



I feel like the problem is that I feel like this isn't exactly great advice for the new crop of young musicians rising up. There's very limited room for increased endorsement / product development vs. touring and merch.

I think the interview glossed over the most realistic future for such music, which is guys who work a real job and supplement a slightly reduced workload with sales from music. I'm just going to throw a name out so I could easily be wrong here, but guys like Paul Ortiz/Chimpspanner, who are considered proper musicians I think, and have a solid following -- he's probably working some non-music job? Or at least through most of Chimpspanner's history? It's still breaking the write/tour/merch paradigm (though he does do some of that), but he obviously can still make a lot of music and reach a lot of people. 

Spotify and youtube were mentioned in the interview with a negative slant, causing would be $1M musicians to turn into $100k musicians, but they also allow for a future where people are making music, potentially reaching millions of people, without needing to adopt it as a full time career as they would previously.


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## budda (Mar 17, 2018)

Pro tip:

Go to more shows, support the local bands as well as the touring acts.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 17, 2018)

narad said:


> I feel like the problem is that I feel like this isn't exactly great advice for the new crop of young musicians rising up. There's very limited room for increased endorsement / product development vs. touring and merch.
> 
> I think the interview glossed over the most realistic future for such music, which is guys who work a real job and supplement a slightly reduced workload with sales from music. I'm just going to throw a name out so I could easily be wrong here, but guys like Paul Ortiz/Chimpspanner, who are considered proper musicians I think, and have a solid following -- he's probably working some non-music job? Or at least through most of Chimpspanner's history? It's still breaking the write/tour/merch paradigm (though he does do some of that), but he obviously can still make a lot of music and reach a lot of people.
> 
> Spotify and youtube were mentioned in the interview with a negative slant, causing would be $1M musicians to turn into $100k musicians, but they also allow for a future where people are making music, potentially reaching millions of people, without needing to adopt it as a full time career as they would previously.


Paul ortiz is an audio engineer or something iirc. Cloudkicker is the same way, pretty sure he has some kind of real job in the music biz.


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## narad (Mar 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Paul ortiz is an audio engineer or something iirc. Cloudkicker is the same way, pretty sure he has some kind of real job in the music biz.



Yea, pursuing related jobs seems like a way to be sustainable musician.


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## budda (Mar 17, 2018)

narad said:


> Yea, pursuing related jobs seems like a way to be sustainable musician.



That was the whole point of the article I'm pretty sure .


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## narad (Mar 17, 2018)

budda said:


> That was the whole point of the article I'm pretty sure .



My point is that the types of the jobs that Misha supplements his income on are based on using his established name. There's not room for many of those jobs -- it works for him but it's kind of silly for young musicians to be thinking about that, because most are never going to get to that point.

However, pretty much everyone can go major in music production or some job where you're doing related work. Pretty much everyone can work really hard at an unrelated job where they might be able to dedicate 30+ hours to music a week and still pay a mortgage. Going forward, I just believe that this is going to become a better working definition of a musician than a guy that goes out and tours a bunch or gets a record contract.

We're both saying the same thing regarding touring not being very profitable and maybe wanting freedom to make the kind of music you want taking precedence over making the type of music you might feel is more marketable / profitable.


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2018)

Not to whitewash all the effort people have been putting into their numbers but there's a lot of half truths, partial truths and 'not remotely' truths in here, and I say that as someone who's worked as a headliner, touring support, local support, promoter and venue before.

A couple points.


Not all bands on the ticket get paid the same amount. Sometimes that's a contractual thing based on each bands draw, sometimes that's based on 'case by case' things like who's fronting the money for the lights/PA for example.
Venue and promoter arrangement can get tricky. As an example, one time I played a show as local support for a big act and it was $25 a ticket with a maximum of 1000 people in the venue, and the act was on contract to get $25,000. No touring support, so every dollar went to the band, the radio stations handled the promotion (along with the band on social media), and the venue made their money off of all the booze and food they sold. Local support didn't get paid but...
Merchandise. Even as a nobody local support opener, I've done over $1000 in a night in merchandise sales. It'll vary from show to show but with how robust a merch table someone like Periphery or Dream Theater has, I'm sure they can comfortably make 4x or 5x that in a night. Not chump change. [EDIT: closer to 8x that]
As mentioned earlier, in my experience at venues the size of what a lot of these guys are playing (max of 1000 people), I've seen acts with guarantees of $18,000, $25,000 and one that was $45,000. At least one of those was a niche metal band.
Not that I know it all or have a crystal ball to know what these guys are getting paid but they 'woe is me' thing and the 'I chose to get a job behind a desk because music is for poor idiots' stuff is not entirely accurate. Even before you get into fringe benefits of being a musician like lessons, endorsements, etc., there is still some money to be made.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 18, 2018)

Just to chip in and say that this all varies massively by country

I know someone who books bands into venues, and he told me that rates and policies vary by country, with some being far more profitable than others.

Also, I saw Arch Enemy in Tokyo last month and I was blown away by their merchandise stand. It was like a full-on shop. Normally, in the UK/US, metal bands have a couple t-shirts and CDs for sale. Their stand in Tokyo had their entire discography, a huge selection of t-shirts, hoodies, jeans, jackets, patches, keyrings, stickers, bags, guitar cases (seriously) etc. And furthermore, it was absolutely packed with customers. I can see why some bands have really latched onto Japan, because they must make WAY more money there than they do by touring the UK.

Edit: I also seem to recall Devin Townsend saying that he makes less than $100k/yr from DTP. That's pretty disappointing


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## budda (Mar 18, 2018)

One thing not discussed yet: currencies differ by country, which means that if you have $1500 to pay a headliner in CDN, you can't afford the band that won't budge from wanting $1500USD (nearly $2K CAD). I read that CAD is supposed to sink hard against the USD, which is vastly going to affect which American bands tour Canada in 2019.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 18, 2018)

Calling it: Next poster will explain that countries vary by country.


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## bostjan (Mar 18, 2018)

Randy said:


> Merchandise. Even as a nobody local support opener, I've done over $1000 in a night in merchandise sales. It'll vary from show to show but with how robust a merch table someone like Periphery or Dream Theater has, I'm sure they can comfortably make 4x or 5x that in a night. Not chump change. [EDIT: closer to 8x that]




When, though? I can believe that in 2010 or 2012, but I find that a no name local opener in 2018 making a grand off of merch in one night is contrary to everything I've observed after attending nearly 300 shows in the past two years, talking to scores of bands, and playing nearly 300 shows in the two years before that. Even with the one of the largest followings in the area and a manager with great business sense, we lost money on merch. In the 2000s decade, merch was our primary economic driver, but nowadays, it's turned dismal. Comparing Dream Theater with a rookie Indie band on a regional tour is just going to give people false hope, IMO.


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## budda (Mar 18, 2018)

If you lost money on merch, then you weren't tracking your sales well. You don't want to buy 100 of each size of 1 design, and you use merch money to buy the next round of merch. It's far better to sell out of a shirt than to have left-overs.


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## crankyrayhanky (Mar 18, 2018)

Sure, just go ahead and sell 1,000 tickets 20 nights a month and watch the $ fall from the sky. Easy Peezy.

For reference, I saw Linkin Park at the Trocadero in Philadelphia (1200 setas) during their first tour. _One Step Close_r was on the radio all the time for at least a few months (and they were on a major label). 
That show was far from sold out, maybe 7-900 people. And many of those people left before LP hit the stage; many people came to see the opening bands who were local and had a decent local following. I vividly remember people heckling the LP guitarist; he had a nice PRS but played no solos which didn't sit well with the crowd, lol. They did sound great though!

Fast forward 6 months and LP was selling out the Spectrum (18,000) and every major arena. But that first show was eye-opening in terms of how tough it is to get things going. I don't even think established bands like BLS, Anthrax and 7Dust gets a guarantee of 1,000 people (?). 

Best to try and conquer your own local big city before quitting your day job to go on the road. You're likely to call home to Momma for a bus ticket back home.


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## bostjan (Mar 18, 2018)

budda said:


> If you lost money on merch, then you weren't tracking your sales well. You don't want to buy 100 of each size of 1 design, and you use merch money to buy the next round of merch. It's far better to sell out of a shirt than to have left-overs.


LOL

No, we lost money. 4 of us each went in 25%, but the drummer was giving away a shirt at every show, after we were unable to move merch. When the band split up 2 years later, we still had eight shirts left, so we each took two to use as shop rags. Mind you, we played over 250 shows during that time. We started with one design, but we did order more later, thinking maybe it was a bad design, but it was the same story with those. We never had cds or posters, and we gave away our stickers. After two years, we only recouperated about 80% of what we each paid in, unless somebody cooked the books or something.

My next band waited a year to do shirts, then, of course, as soon as we bought them, our drummer abruptly quit to go overseas and I was left holding the bill. Reformed the band and played a hundred shows with a new lineup, but I never moved that many of those, either.


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## budda (Mar 18, 2018)

So where was I wrong?


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## Hollowway (Mar 18, 2018)

budda said:


> So where was I wrong?



Sounds like he’s saying he simply didn’t sell many shirts, and it wasn’t one of the issues you stated. 

It’s possible that merch sales are regional, but I’ve never seen local/unknown bands moving a lot of t shirts, etc. It’s always the National, pop-oriented bands that are able to sell. At least in my limited experience.


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## feraledge (Mar 19, 2018)

I know this interview is posted in the Periphery thread, but worthy of its own, for people, like myself, who would have only gone in there to see if this was posted already. 

Video: 


Part of the transcription: 


> "Make income outside of the band. This is what I do with the signature products.
> 
> "It's my way of being able to make a living. It's my way of being able to make a life for myself. People think sometimes, 'Periphery is achieving a little bit of success.' We're not a massive band but we do alright. But we make no money. And people have a really hard time grasping that.
> 
> ...


I think it's interesting, mainly in seeing bands on different levels bumping against the same problems in the music world: touring is not worth it, there's too many bands, it's hard to make music and present it in a format that makes the listener engage it like it was a mail ordered LP, and people want production and entertainment. 
Makes me a bit more of a grumbly bastard about 'music these days' and shit like that, but no doubt validating while also not being shocking. But I think there's a definite need for this kind of thing to be said, both by old timer bands who were, at the very least, not losing money from touring before, and the world now where people think they're just going to record something awesome and it'll spread like wildfire. The time for both of those things are gone and it's hard to say it's good for the future of metal. 
It's a honest discussion. I had some thoughts about separating Misha from this, but they're pointless really, so just nixed them.


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## Dayn (Mar 19, 2018)

Music as a product doesn't seem to have much value these days. If it isn't pirated, then it's cheap as chips. Interestingly, unlike many careers which increasingly require specialisation, creative industries seem to encourage the opposite. Rather than make money from your music as a product, you need to look into how you can develop other products from it, and even turn it into a service.

All I can say is that I don't know personally of any musician or anyone else in the arts who _doesn't_ also have a day job.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Mar 19, 2018)

i remember reading or seeing a vid on where the founders of "the warped tour" were saying where concert attendance was going down every year because kids just don't go to concerts like the older generations did. they are at home playing videogames or on their smartphones watching youtube lol.

i can see where it would be harder to make money...obviously ticket sales money, but also things like merch sales which is really important for smaller bands. with the cost of living and gas, gear, etc...it would be tough to make it.


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## Veldar (Mar 19, 2018)

When a sale's man complains he doesn't make money it only works once to boost sales...


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## oc616 (Mar 19, 2018)

There's something to be said about the shift in idols for those currently going through school. Their music tends to be less genre-orientated or even based on what is in the charts, its more like listening to the internet's gag reel being played for an hour each lunch time. These awkward, middle class "rappers" injecting the words "Whores", "Coke", "Green" and "Wasted" like they understand the concept. All with a healthy dose of video game references and memes for good measure.

Actually, scratch that, no lyrics have ever captured the mindset of teenagers more accurately.


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## Avedas (Mar 19, 2018)

An old industry (touring, record sales) didn't adapt to the new post-internet world and is floundering. No surprises here. That's not to say the community collectively hasn't made an effort with things like streaming services and whatever, but some ships can't be saved from sinking. I'm sure someone will come up with a brand new game changer that will blindside everyone eventually and break through, but until then this is what it is.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Throwing out this idea:

Go to shows, buy merch from the touring bands.


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## j3ps3 (Mar 19, 2018)

I get the point, but still, I doubt there would be much interest on those signature products if it weren't for Periphery.


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## Sogradde (Mar 19, 2018)

As the production of music becomes cheaper, so does the revenue gained by it. So far not really surprising. 

That people don't go to shows anymore is old news as well, so if you really want a large crowd, you have to be more mainstream or offer some gimmick no one else does.

Ironically the younger generations right now are the most conformist generations the west has seen in a while but there will be a counter-movement at some point and live shows will be cool again.
The question is how soon that's going to be and whether we will be still around to see that happen.


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## chipchappy (Mar 19, 2018)

j3ps3 said:


> I get the point, but still, I doubt there would be much interest on those signature products if it weren't for Periphery.



But that IS whole point, which is what @Dayn was referring to earlier: touring isn't the gig anymore, the stuff what comes with it is. 

I think there was an interview where Misha said their label had come to them about making some adjustments to become a radio band, which was an opportunity to "make some real money" - and the guys turned it down. I have no doubt Periphery could cross over into a mainstream market, But it seems like the guys aren't interested in anything that would influence how they write.

Therefor this makes Misha's interview/quote a mere observation rather than a complaint. He's always said it was just a passion project, which I think people accept but don't always understand. And this Sounding Off interview is his way of clarifying that...



budda said:


> Throwing out this idea:
> 
> Go to shows, buy merch from the touring bands.



+1

Simple idea: If as a collective more people go to shows, more bands will see a market to tour in
If we don't, they won't - and this 'problem' thats been referred to in this thread will get worse.


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## Avedas (Mar 19, 2018)

I'd go to more shows if it weren't $80+ a ticket regardless how "big" they are. I still go see bands relatively regularly but I'm very selective as it's a real monetary drain. Even when I lived in Canada shows had been getting expensive in recent years. I imagine touring the US has great margins with bands not requiring work visas and dirt cheap gas prices.


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## lurè (Mar 19, 2018)

The supply of bands nowadays has largely increased because of cheaper music production and internet advertising, but the demand has decreased significantly over the years.
The main factor is:

 People don't buy merch/CDs or go to shows anymore: many bands asking for gigs but no follow up by fans which leads to clubs being reluctant to make a band play live.
Rant : Sharing on your Facebook timeline your friend's recent music video IS NOT supporting your local scene or any band artist you say you love. You could be more helpful if get your ass up and pay 10$ for a show instead of spending your saturdays staying at home with your cat and dyeing your hair blue.


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## Fathand (Mar 19, 2018)

I also think that the issue is that we (as in my generation, born in the early eighties) who did go to gigs for years and did buy the merch have moved on. We have other priorities than the "scene", which is unfortunate, but such is life.

Combine that in a larger scale to the fact that we might have also been maybe the last (or second last) generation to do that in a larger scale, because the oversaturation of the live market wasn't there and gigs were more rare. When they came, you went. Now you can skip 6 months without a problem and the same bands are passing again.


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## oc616 (Mar 19, 2018)

Fathand said:


> I also think that the issue is that we (as in my generation, born in the early eighties) who did go to gigs for years and did buy the merch have moved on. We have other priorities than the "scene", which is unfortunate, but such is life.
> 
> Combine that in a larger scale to the fact that we might have also been maybe the last (or second last) generation to do that in a larger scale, because the oversaturation of the live market wasn't there and gigs were more rare. When they came, you went. Now you can skip 6 months without a problem and the same bands are passing again.



This also plays into which generation has the larger pool of disposable income. Do you think its by accident that Zep/Priest/Maiden etc still rake it in based on nostalgia, yet bands who would be nostalgic for say my generation aren't lining up for reunions or do so only to collapse immediately? Nu Metal revival when? Sure, we have the bands that "crossed over" into the mainstream (see Slipknot, Disturbed and Linkin Park before Chester's death), but all of these "big reunion" hopes that crawled out of other camps just never materialized into anything that stuck around. The more cynical among you will state its because the music is worse. The smarter among you will realize its because there is no money to be made there, because the average income of their fans isn't enough to see a flurry of new gigs or support a £3500+ Gibson signed by the band to noodle with occasionally.


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> So where was I wrong?


Sorry, I have a tendency to sound unintentionally smug. I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong, I was just trying to elaborate. 

My point is that you can absolutely be in a band that stays busy and plays decent-sized regional tours with relative good attendance (as I said, the band I was in was one of the biggest, if not the biggest local band in the region at that time - we played a fair amount of sold-out shows, but for every one of those there was a night playing to group of ten people, you know), but yet you cannot expect good returns on merch. Maybe you had great luck with your merch. Maybe all of my friends in bands are lying to me about how much merch they sell and how much profit they make from it. I know you tour a lot. You even came through my area, and I planned to see your band, but sadly, I was actually in California for two weeks during that time...

Even Misha has been saying that Periphery nets nothing. I've been saying it for a couple of years now, at least. Not that I toured consistently, but I toured in the 90's, I toured in the 2000's, and I toured in the 2010's, and my observation is that it's at least ten times more difficult to make money now than it was before. I can't say for a fact that it's the trend, but I can say that, in my opinion it's the trend, and I have based my opinion on my experiences in the trenches, my contact with other bands, and what I've read online. Maybe bands who make a profit on merch are just less likely to whine about it to me, which is logical. But I hear a fair amount of whining about it and I commiserate.


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## exo (Mar 19, 2018)

Alternative viewpoint:

Misha isn’t saying anything new, it’s just that the veil on the whole process has been pulled back and the mystique shattered by modern technology. There have NEVER been more than a handful of bands at any given time that “make money” from “music”.

Being a musician in the rock/metal world has ALWAYS been a “passion project”.....We’re all just that much more aware of the reality of it all these days, because the speed of modern communication makes it impossible to hide behind the veil of fame and narrative. How many people opened for the Stones or Zep or Sabbath or Priest or Ozzy, or WHOEVER....and a couple of years later went back to being a janitor at the local high school or what have you? Almost ALL of them......


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## Fathand (Mar 19, 2018)

oc616 said:


> This also plays into which generation has the larger pool of disposable income. Do you think its by accident that Zep/Priest/Maiden etc still rake it in based on nostalgia, yet bands who would be nostalgic for say my generation aren't lining up for reunions or do so only to collapse immediately? Nu Metal revival when? Sure, we have the bands that "crossed over" into the mainstream (see Slipknot, Disturbed and Linkin Park before Chester's death), but all of these "big reunion" hopes that crawled out of other camps just never materialized into anything that stuck around. The more cynical among you will state its because the music is worse. The smarter among you will realize its because there is no money to be made there, because the average income of their fans isn't enough to see a flurry of new gigs or support a £3500+ Gibson signed by the band to noodle with occasionally.



I agree - those were the pioneers that made an (dare we say, a wider social?) impact which our generations' bands did not. New string number, yes and some cool music but otherwise the wider impact overall was a lot lighter --> doesn't make such passionate nostalgia compared to the original fans of Priest, Maiden etc. = blander reaction towards reunions. We had it going better, so music was just that - it wasn't a revolution.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Avedas said:


> I'd go to more shows if it weren't $80+ a ticket regardless how "big" they are. I still go see bands relatively regularly but I'm very selective as it's a real monetary drain. Even when I lived in Canada shows had been getting expensive in recent years. I imagine touring the US has great margins with bands not requiring work visas and dirt cheap gas prices.



Weird, international acts come through my city (2 hours from toronto) for $7 on a thursday. I have played $10 shows in Toronto.

There are affordable shows with music you like, there just might be effort involved in finding them.

As for sharing videos on facebook: yes, it does help. It means someone who may not have heard of a band ends up watching the video (especially if multiple friends share it) and going to that bands next show. Also, social media numbers matter. More shares and more views helps bands get better slots and better tours. It isnt the only metric used, but dont be naive and think it doesnt matter.

Someone mentioned that 6 months later X band is back through - that's more or less how a touring schedule works for most low to mid level (not arena) touring acts. If that's your excuse not to see a band, then it's probably going to be a year and a half (or a new album) before you *actually go see them again.

To repeat: go see shows, buy merch. If you dont and think everyone else will (hint: they arent) dont complain when the band you "love" breaks up.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 19, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> I have no doubt Periphery could cross over into a mainstream market, But it seems like the guys aren't interested in anything that would influence how they write.



You really think so?

I'm sure they could WRITE mainstream pop stuff, but a massive part of being a successful mainstream act is about having sex appeal, and I just don't see the Periphery guys having that...


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> Throwing out this idea:
> 
> Go to shows, buy merch from the touring bands.





chipchappy said:


> +1
> 
> Simple idea: If as a collective more people go to shows, more bands will see a market to tour in
> If we don't, they won't - and this 'problem' thats been referred to in this thread will get worse.



I mean, I've been to thousands of shows, if not tens of thousands in my life, not counting shows I've played. Most shows are not expensive to go to, in fact, many are free.

But what are you guys trying to say? That if I, personally, go see Dillinger Escape Plan, that they won't break up? Obviously that's not what you are saying, but in this context, that's the way it might sound. Think about it - a fan complaining that his or her favourite band is breaking up because that band no longer can financially support touring. Telling that fan to do something he or she already does isn't useful advise.



Flappydoodle said:


> You really think so?
> 
> I'm sure they could WRITE mainstream pop stuff, but a massive part of being a successful mainstream act is about having sex appeal, and I just don't see the Periphery guys having that...



Absolutely. Mainstream pop is less about the music or lyrics and more about sex appeal and intrigue. You're more likely to go viral with a song that is obviously and intentionally shitty than you are with a song that is incredibly good. Example: "What Does the Fox Say" by Ylvis. The song was written as a satire of how shitty songs are getting in pop music. Then, the song took off and became a sensation with all irony of that fact lost on the public. This is also why most people can't stand listening to Nicki Minaj or Cardi B or whatever young lady the music industry can clad in scant clothing and spraypaint with flashy makeup. The musical talent is almost universally understood to be nonexistent, so why are these people at the pinnacle of professional music, career-wise?


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Sorry, I have a tendency to sound unintentionally smug. I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong, I was just trying to elaborate.



Ok, so I did misunderstand whether you were agreeing or not .

You're correct that it is very hard to make money touring. We still don't make money because we put that back into the band. It's a case of "well we could pay ourselves but then we would just owe the full balance on X whereas if we put it in the band account we can pay less on that bill." But I think that a lot of bands do miss the business sense that is required to make anything profitable, or just break even.

One thing that hasn't been touched on is how much bands might spend on booze/weed/etc for themselves and/or crew versus what's coming in. If a band parties away half their guarantee every night or two, but then complains about not making money on the road, well... that's on them. They got paid and they weren't responsible with the money. One of my coworkers still doesn't understand the concept that I pay for my own meals on tour yet the band gets paid for the shows .

Like I said before, if more people went to shows and bought merch from the touring bands things would probably be a little bit different for a lot of bands. It's just really easy for everyone to say "oh I'll see them next time" and stay home.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> I mean, I've been to thousands of shows, if not tens of thousands in my life, not counting shows I've played. Most shows are not expensive to go to, in fact, many are free.
> 
> But what are you guys trying to say? That if I, personally, go see Dillinger Escape Plan, that they won't break up? Obviously that's not what you are saying, but in this context, that's the way it might sound. Think about it - a fan complaining that his or her favourite band is breaking up because that band no longer can financially support touring. Telling that fan to do something he or she already does isn't useful advise.



I'm trying to mobilize the group of people who are the opposite of you and make excuses every time a band comes around. I'd wager your concert-going frequency is a lot higher than a majority of the people on this forum, or who read this thread. If an extra 10% of the 10K views this probably hits ends up going to a couple more shows a year, that's a big difference for every DIY touring band who gets their support.

I think we both know I'm trying to get people to shows


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 19, 2018)

j3ps3 said:


> I get the point, but still, I doubt there would be much interest on those signature products if it weren't for Periphery.


Truth. The guitars, pickups, pedals, drum samples, etc. Honestly, they are all mediocre. If it wasn't for the artist name slapped on those products, many folks (including some of you guys on here) would've probably passed them up.



chipchappy said:


> But that IS whole point, which is what @Dayn was referring to earlier: touring isn't the gig anymore, the stuff what comes with it is.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Therefor3 this makes Misha's interview/quote a mere observation rather than a complaint. He's always said it was just a passion project, which I think people accept but don't always understand.


^ Both accurate statements, chipchappy.



Flappydoodle said:


> I'm sure they could WRITE mainstream pop stuff, but a massive part of being a successful mainstream act is about having sex appeal, and I just don't see the Periphery guys having that...


Yeah. The djent/prog kids whack off in their spare time to photos of Periphery's gear but not to photos of the band members themselves.


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> I'm trying to mobilize the group of people who are the opposite of you and make excuses every time a band comes around. I'd wager your concert-going frequency is a lot higher than a majority of the people on this forum, or who read this thread. If an extra 10% of the 10K views this probably hits ends up going to a couple more shows a year, that's a big difference for every DIY touring band who gets their support.
> 
> I think we both know I'm trying to get people to shows



Maybe an alternative approach is to point out that no two shows are ever exactly the same, and the band you make an excuse not to see might never come back through again, especially if people make excuses not to go. I think people generally like going to shows but maybe don't like crowds or don't like leaving the house or don't like staying up late or whatever.

The way I see it, if concerts get more expensive and less financially incentived (consider how many bands tour at a loss or at break-even levels), bands will eventually stop performing, and we will all lose out on these awesome experiences.


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## chipchappy (Mar 19, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> You really think so?
> 
> I'm sure they could WRITE mainstream pop stuff, but a massive part of being a successful mainstream act is about having sex appeal, and I just don't see the Periphery guys having that...



Well, if we're talking top 40 pop then yeah, sex appeal is a factor... but do I see Periphery getting to a place where they're as mainstream/radio friendly as Five Finger Death Punch, Disturbed or Godsmack? Absolutely no doubt about it.




bostjan said:


> But what are you guys trying to say? That if I, personally, go see Dillinger Escape Plan, that they won't break up? Obviously that's not what you are saying, but in this context, that's the way it might sound. Think about it - a fan complaining that his or her favourite band is breaking up because that band no longer can financially support touring. Telling that fan to do something he or she already does isn't useful advise.



No - I don't see this rally that budda is trying to instigate rectifying bands reasons for breaking up, it's obviously up to the band/musicians to decide what's worth working for on their end and whether they feel satisfaction with the time/effort/especially money they're putting in. Bands of the past are what they are, but they can be a good warning that other bands may go the DEP route too if we continue to head down this road - unless we do everything in our power to support the hell out of the acts we're fans of.


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## prlgmnr (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Comparing Dream Theater with a rookie Indie band on a regional tour is just going to give people false hope, IMO.


Yeah but they've been plugging away since 1985 so I don't think there's any chance of discouraging them now.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

You don't think more people going to see shows and buying merch is going to beget more shows?

Really?

DEP also put in how many years before calling it a day? Compare that to the regional touring band who's been on the road for 5 years and decides to call it, and it's a blip on the radar.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Yeah but they've been plugging away since 1985 so I don't think there's any chance of discouraging them now.



That was a good laugh


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## Avedas (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> Weird, international acts come through my city (2 hours from toronto) for $7 on a thursday. I have played $10 shows in Toronto.
> 
> There are affordable shows with music you like, there just might be effort involved in finding them.


I went to a local punk show semi recently. The crowd was maybe 20 people in a tiny club. Never heard of any of the bands but it seemed like fun so I went in. It was indeed fun and 90% of the people there were friends and everyone was drinking and had a good time. I paid the equivalent of $45 for that ticket. For a lineup of bands that maybe have a single music video they filmed with an iPhone and a blog where they host their bio and news. Add to the fact that local bands are always a gamble and it becomes much less attractive to attend regularly.

Any band that's at least moderately half semi famous will be at a larger club and tickets go over $80. Even local Youtube artists. But this is a city where you can still make a living playing music and no matter how niche an act is, the population is dense enough to sell out even on a Tuesday night, so I imagine there isn't much motivation for ticket prices to go down.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Perhaps that's because of where you're located?

My experience with underground punk shows in North America is $20 or less.


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## SDMFVan (Mar 19, 2018)

All I could think about while reading that was the fact that Misha drives a $275,000 Ferrari. No hate, good for him, but obviously he's figured out the solution to the problem.

There's still money to be made in music, artists just have to work differently at it than they did before. In the 70's-90's all you had to do was record an album and go on the road for a year and suddenly you'd wake up in a mansion swimming in money. Nowadays you have to look at the album and the tour as basically a sunk cost to get people to buy merch or endorsed gear that you get a larger piece of. Also, because that exposure is so important you kind of have to constantly be out there in the public eye. You can't take off 6-10 years between album cycles like Metallica or Tool. I think that's pretty much what Misha was saying as well, but to say "Periphery makes no money" is kind of disingenuous because I would guess that the money you do make is mostly because you're in Periphery.


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> You don't think more people going to see shows and buying merch is going to beget more shows?
> 
> Really?
> 
> DEP also put in how many years before calling it a day? Compare that to the regional touring band who's been on the road for 5 years and decides to call it, and it's a blip on the radar.



Not sure if that's directed toward me or not.

Personally, I think that more people going to shows and buying more merch will absolutely keep these bands continuing on and encourage more new bands to do the same. I just don't think that's the only variable in the equation, even if it is the primary dependency.

A lot of older venues are closing down, too. And it's complicated. The knee-jerk reaction is to blame it on poor attendance, but truthfully, a lot of venues are not closing down because of that. Here in Northeastern Vermont, we lost a whole slew of venues around 2014-2016 due to "noise complaints." "Noise complaints." We are talking about venues next to airports, venues between 100+ acre grazing fields, venues in the middle of nowhere, where you can't see a single structure or landmark or anything from the roof of the venue, and they were being fined for noise complaints by the local governments relentlessly. Same sort of thing was going on in Burlington around that time, too, but those venues were obviously closer to civilization, even if they had operated for decades... It's political, sure, but the net result was fewer places to play after the scourge. What I think was really happening, and this seems obvious to me, but I'm making assumptions here, was that venues where they served hard alcohol were better attended than venues that served only beer and wine - that the people associated with the select board are the ones operating those beer & wine venues, which have way smaller crowds than the more popular older establishments...I guess that's all I'll say, but anyway, the really cool places to play where we always had nice crowds all dried up over the course of two years, and it wiped out about 80% of our venues here - especially places that catered to metal and punk - it was ridiculous. Right now, we have an arts center where we can play, but the place only likes to book one show a month and a lot of bands are trying to get in there, and we have house shows, but the police are really cracking down on house shows, too, plus, I'm 37 years old, so if I'm playing a house show and the cops bust it up, and if anyone there is under 21 and had any alcohol, I'm probably going to jail.

Also, I've noted a decline in the level of professionalism dealing with promoters and sound engineers lately, on average. The great ones are still great, but the newer, younger ones just don't seem to have their heads in the game, to me. Maybe I'm just old and cranky now, but I honestly don't remember ever seeing a show or playing a show in the 90's or 00's where there was feedback going on for more than one or maybe two seconds, maximum, before someone did something about it, but these new sound guys don't mix, don't set levels, don't know how to run a board, nothing.

So, even if people are dying to buy tickets to a show, you still need a venue, and you still need promoters who are decent enough to do the actual work to let people know a concert is happening. The Beatles could resurrect John and George and play a reunion concert in my town, but if I don't know it's happening, how am I going to attend? Also, people who attend a show and leave with their ears bleeding from the sound man leaving a hot mic on the stage floor feeding back for an entire set without anyone doing anything about it, how likely are they going to be to go see the next show at that venue... It's a culmination of shitty new practices that seems to be squelching bands in this area. I've heard similar things about my old hometowns where I still talk to some musicians.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

It wasn't  I just didn't quote chipchappy.


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## Womb raider (Mar 19, 2018)

I think the whole problem is a lot deeper than attending shows and buying merch to support bands. The whole landscape has changed for the worse for touring musicians and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better. This is not to say guys that were touring 10 or 20 years ago had it good, but I think it's much harder to cut your teeth in today's market.

I remember when buying music was a sacred experience. Going to an actual record store with $20 in my pocket and spending hours listening to various CDs making sure the money was spent wisely. Buying music that way ensured I had skin in the game and I would give every track a listen, multiple times over. Nowdays, a band drops an album, it can be streamed on Youtube immediately. There's no anticipation, no searching for hidden gems. I find myself more disinterested than ever in new releases.
Maybe it's the internets fault for making everything so accessible. Everything from guitar lessons, tabs and music production to the actual music itself.
This is why I don't blame musicians for setting up other revenue streams. Most of these guys are smart enough to know this isn't a stable career path so they gotta get what they can get while they can.


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## chipchappy (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> You don't think more people going to see shows and buying merch is going to beget more shows?
> 
> Really?
> 
> DEP also put in how many years before calling it a day? Compare that to the regional touring band who's been on the road for 5 years and decides to call it, and it's a blip on the radar.




I didn't say that, actually - the opposite. I agree with you... they will. All I was saying was that I dont think if people started going to more shows now that defunct metal bands are going to come back from the dead and start touring again. At least I'd be surprised if they did.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> All I was saying was that I dont think if people started going to more shows now that defunct metal bands are going to come back from the dead and start touring again. At least I'd be surprised if they did.



Sure they do, reunion tours get announced all the time . Even smaller bands are doing 10-year anniversary one-offs or weekend runs.


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> I think the whole problem is a lot deeper than attending shows and buying merch to support bands. The whole landscape has changed for the worse for touring musicians and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better. This is not to say guys that were touring 10 or 20 years ago had it good, but I think it's much harder to cut your teeth in today's market.
> 
> I remember when buying music was a sacred experience. Going to an actual record store with $20 in my pocket and spending hours listening to various CDs making sure the money was spent wisely. Buying music that way ensured I had skin in the game and I would give every track a listen, multiple times over. Nowdays, a band drops an album, it can be streamed on Youtube immediately. There's no anticipation, no searching for hidden gems. I find myself more disinterested than ever in new releases.
> Maybe it's the internets fault for making everything so accessible. Everything from guitar lessons, tabs and music production to the actual music itself.
> This is why I don't blame musicians for setting up other revenue streams. Most of these guys are smart enough to know this isn't a stable career path so they gotta get what they can get while they can.



I think a part of the change is how music, for me at least, used to be a lot more social. If I heard a cool new band, it was because someone introduced me to them or because they were opening up for another band I liked. Either way, it was a social experience, and I would make sure to pass it on by talking about this new band I heard with my friends and encouraging them to check the band out. In 2018, if I heard a new band, it's because I found them in a google search or they came up on my stream as recommended (by whatever computer algorithm). Not to knock the new way of discovery, but the old organic, more social experience seems to be a lot less prominent, and my friends (maybe because they are just older or because they are sick of hearing music stuff from me) have little interest in checking out the bands I recommend.

Making a tape for somebody used to be a bonding experience. It's a lot more effort than sending them an IM with a link to youtube, and I think that people used to accept the tape recordings with more eagerness, because it was something you put effort into, whereas an IM'd youtube link is easy to write off.

Hell, as much as I hated waiting in line to buy advance tickets, one plus was standing next to someone else with similar musical tastes and striking up a conversation with that person about the band for which you are both there to buy tickets. Maybe you'd run into the same person at the actual show.

Guitar lessons made a big change after the internet gained widespread availability, too. It used to be just you and your instructor, usually one-on-one, at the local mom and pop music store. Now it's signing into whatever website and following the directions. It's probably more effective for learning music the new way, but it will lack the following:

a) Talking to the other students in the waiting room before/after your lesson (which is how I formed a few of my earliest bands)
b) Having your instructor recommend songs for you to learn based off of your particular tastes, strengths, and weaknesses.
c) Getting the chatter from your instructor about peripheral things you need to know, like booking shows or doing sessions or whatever. I found that to be just as valuable as, if not more valuable than, the actual learning to play part.


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## Avedas (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> Perhaps that's because of where you're located?
> 
> My experience with underground punk shows in North America is $20 or less.


I mean that's kind of my point. It's easy to say "go to more shows, buy more merch" within the specific region that is Ontario and the US.


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## chipchappy (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> Sure they do, reunion tours get announced all the time . Even smaller bands are doing 10-year anniversary one-offs or weekend runs.



That's true. But I feel like a lot of those bands that do "reunion tours" are bigger ones that know that they have a big enough appeal or draw to net a good chuck of change. Also why the smaller guys are doing "weekend runs" because it doesn't require a full-tour production cost but they can go out and have fun and maybe make a little money too.

I guess the only point I'm trying to make is that I agree that it's more important than ever to go to shows and support your favorite artist as much as possible, moreso to keep current acts going, rather than to bring back old ones.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Avedas said:


> I mean that's kind of my point. It's easy to say "go to more shows, buy more merch" within the specific region that is Ontario and the US.



Except I'm not being region specific and asking everyone to go to more shows


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## Avedas (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> Except I'm not being region specific and asking everyone to go to more shows


Fair enough


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## RoRo56 (Mar 19, 2018)

lurè said:


> Rant : Sharing on your Facebook timeline your friend's recent music video IS NOT supporting your local scene or any band artist you say you love. You could be more helpful if get your ass up and pay 10$ for a show instead of spending your saturdays staying at home with your cat and dyeing your hair blue.



I can't agree with this enough. I played in a fairly big local band in Ireland. We played shows all around the country, playing with international touring bands, headlining a couple of festivals. There were so many people who claimed to be huge fans and all they ever did was post about us online. While this was a great help, we lost so much money that the band just gave up in the end. We got 120 really good quality shirts with a design from Josh Middleton and I think we sold about half of them over an 18 month period. 
I think everyone wants local bands to succeed but aren't willing to do anything to actually help them out.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 19, 2018)

Misha's music sucks so hard that it only seems fair that he should have to work a second or third job to get by.

EDIT: Sorry. I should have probably left that comment in the Unpopular Opinion Thread.


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## lurè (Mar 19, 2018)

What bothers me so much is that happens also to fairly big bands.
Even if I'm not a fan of hardcore or similar I had the opportunity to see for 10€ Terror and Expire at 5 km from where I live.
My band opened for Brutality Will Prevail and other bands for 5€ per ticket.
Last May I saw Periphery, The Contortionist and Destrage for 20€.

People who regularly posts on FB songs of these bands and even have tattoos with their logo didn't show their faces.


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## BusinessMan (Mar 19, 2018)

I keep seeing this article everywhere, but Should this really be any surprise for a metal band these days? Bands say this all the time but a soon as misha from periphery says it everyone loses their minds.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Womb raider said:


> I think the whole problem is a lot deeper than attending shows and buying merch to support bands.



Yes and no. If you go and support bands by attending shows and buying merch, the need to rely on that second and third musical income stream gets reduced dramatically. It's not like streaming is a great revenue stream (some is better than none though) and most bands aren't offering lessons or VIP packages while on tour (you have to be a pretty big deal in your genre to offer VIP lessons).

If more people paid to see shows (as in, don't ask your friend for guest every time they come through) and bought merch (again, that $10 on a CD or shirt goes a long way) then bands would be better off. I'm not sure how else to state that so that people get it .

Something else not mentioned at all so far is first week sales, which determines the next year for bands. If your first week sales (digital and physical) aren't very strong, your chances of getting on good tours with good headliners gets greatly reduced. Conversely if you get decent numbers, then when you apply for tour packages you'll get serious consideration.


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## sakeido (Mar 19, 2018)

Patreon is the future for bands

I'd buy more shirts if 99% of them weren't ugly. Gotten pretty picky these days, I used to buy shirts just to support the band, then I did a salvation army run that was 99% band shirts I had never, ever worn because they matched with nothing, were mega tacky, fit like shit, and/or were uncomfortable... and now I don't buy shirts unless I actually like the shirt, and that is a very rare occurrence.

All the studio endorsement stuff is pretty  to me. Drum samples and plugins? I'll get those from guys like Bob Rock and Forrester Savell, thanks... not some dude who spends most his time playing in a band, not engineering or producing, who spun off some shitty plugin in 2 months of his spare time

Signature pedals are a sad joke too, but I guess they are bigger money makers than anything to do with the actual writing and performing side of things


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## bulb (Mar 19, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Misha's music sucks so hard that it only seems fair that he should have to work a second or third job to get by.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry. I should have probably left that comment in the Unpopular Opinion Thread.



Maybe so, but this is a situation that extends to bands that actually make good music too, it’s definitely not unique to Periphery.

Again, not complaining about anything because I have a great life thanks to the music industry.

My goal is to prepare people who are interested in entering this industry so they know what to expect. This way they can learn to manage their expectations, and hopefully start working on diversifying their income streams from the start!

This industry is tough enough as is, so you might as well know what you are up against.


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## MFB (Mar 19, 2018)

> I'd buy more shirts if 99% of them weren't ugly. Gotten pretty picky these days, I used to buy shirts just to support the band, then I did a salvation army run that was 99% band shirts I had never, ever worn because they matched with nothing, were mega tacky, fit like shit, and/or were uncomfortable... and now I don't buy shirts unless I actually like the shirt, and that is a very rare occurrence.



At one point, I had around like, 40 band tees - not specifically from concerts, just in general, and most of them were the most ill-fitting, heavy cotton, destroyed-from-too-many-washes design types and I just said "Fuck it" one day and donated all of them to the Salvation Army; and it was the best feeling in the world when I came to have tees that actually fit like a shirt should and looked good after more than a handful of washes.

And I know that there's a reason behind it being the more you pay for tees, the bigger gamble with selling all of them to recoup what you spent; but still, at least make the ones in your online stores decent quality.


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## Stilicho (Mar 19, 2018)

sakeido said:


> Patreon is the future for bands


Yeah I definitely think this will be the case in a few more years.


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## jsmalleus (Mar 19, 2018)

Kids and people in general just don't really have the motivation to go to shows or go out and buy cds, etc. that we had. That's where we went to hear new music and hang out with our friends. If we wanted to play video games together, we packed up cars full of towers and CRT monitors and had LAN parties. Now people can play games together, chat, and hang out with their friends online, they can stream any music they want while commenting and sharing it with each other online. We still go out to shows because that's a part of how we socialize and experience music, but people grow up and other priorities supersede their interest in the music scene. The younger crowd is the demographic that is always going to drive the music industry, and fewer of them have the same motivations we had to actually show up for music.

It's not all doom and gloom though, I'm hoping autonomous cars might get a few more people out to shows since they'll be able to have a few drinks and let their car take them home rather than arranging and paying for a ride home in a taxi, uber, or cop car. Also hoping crypto music platforms replace the spotify, youtube, etc. models and drastically reduce the amount those companies suck up as middlemen. It looks like more are taking shape and more artists are getting on board (Matt Sorum just introduced one called Artbit within the past week). Maybe kids subscribe to a service where they put on a VR headset and walk around virtual shows as avatars while the likes of us attend in person. I'll continue to buy physical copies, I'll keep going to shows, but we're a dying breed and the industry/artists need to start thinking forward and set up a way to properly monetize based on the social environment rather than drop the ball again.


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## Drew (Mar 19, 2018)

Randy said:


> Not that I know it all or have a crystal ball to know what these guys are getting paid but they 'woe is me' thing and the 'I chose to get a job behind a desk because music is for poor idiots' stuff is not entirely accurate. Even before you get into fringe benefits of being a musician like lessons, endorsements, etc., there is still some money to be made.


Oh, no, no arguments here - it's not *impossible*, but the numbers being presented for how it's "easy" to make money touring simply don't pass the sniff test, so to speak.


budda said:


> Go to shows, buy merch from the touring bands.


There are only so many band t-shirts I can (or would even want to) wear.  I mean, I know you're coming from a good place and encouraging people to engage more with their local scene is definitely good advice, but I work 8-5 with a 6am alarm so weekday shows are tough, and I have too many t-shirts as it is. I buy music from bands I like and will try to catch shows on the weekend or the rare week-night show if it's an act I'm really passionate about or a couple friends talk me into it, but there are limits here. 

I think the bigger issue is it didn't used to matter how much money you made (or usually lost) touring, because touring generally translated into CD buys and radio plays and all that other stuff, and THAT's where you made money. These days, streams are basically worthless and sales/downloads are tough, so the number of places you as a musician can actually make money are dwindling. 

Also, Bulb's post in this thread owns.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Dude I miss nearly every weeknight show because I get up at 5:35am for work and I need my money for me to tour . I dont like it but its my reality. Thankfully I know a bunch of people who do make it to (and play) those shows.

Also, you dont have to buy a shirt (but it helps).


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## feraledge (Mar 19, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Misha's music sucks so hard that it only seems fair that he should have to work a second or third job to get by.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry. I should have probably left that comment in the Unpopular Opinion Thread.


Two words: Haunted Shores. Killer metal.

Am I the only one who already thought Periphery has always been radio friendly?


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## Drew (Mar 19, 2018)

budda said:


> Dude I miss nearly every weeknight show because I get up at 5:35am for work and I need my money for me to tour . I dont like it but its my reality. Thankfully I know a bunch of people who do make it to (and play) those shows.
> 
> Also, you dont have to buy a shirt (but it helps).


I think my bigger point is, if it requires people buying shirts at all the shows to make it economically viable, then something's wrong with the _model_. Going to a concert should be a simple economic transaction; I buy a ticket, a band plays. It shouldn't have to be an act of charity, and unless you as the band have some other form of revenue, it kind of is.


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## wankerness (Mar 19, 2018)

jsmalleus said:


> It's not all doom and gloom though, I'm hoping autonomous cars might get a few more people out to shows since they'll be able to have a few drinks and let their car take them home rather than arranging and paying for a ride home in a taxi, uber, or cop car. Also hoping crypto music platforms replace the spotify, youtube, etc. models and drastically reduce the amount those companies suck up as middlemen. It looks like more are taking shape and more artists are getting on board (Matt Sorum just introduced one called Artbit within the past week). Maybe kids subscribe to a service where they put on a VR headset and walk around virtual shows as avatars while the likes of us attend in person. I'll continue to buy physical copies, I'll keep going to shows, but we're a dying breed and the industry/artists need to start thinking forward and set up a way to properly monetize based on the social environment rather than drop the ball again.



I would take the "crypto" wonkiness out of the post but agree that Youtube and Spotify, etc either have to go or start paying a bucketload to artists if any regular musician's going to make any livable wages in the industry ever again. The internet murdered income for musical artists, and people with this weird sunshiney outlook of "oh, it's fine, you just have to do x, x and x that you didn't have to before!!!" as if that means it's not any worse is crazy-talk. 

Watching my brother have to split time between practicing and writing, trying like hell to find venues to play, having to track down other musicians to play with all the time (he plays jazz), trying to shop around compositions, having to subsidize recordings via crowdfunding, teaching lessons (half of which are ungrateful kiddos), all by himself, is really depressing. I know the sunshine crowd is like "WELL 20 years ago he'd have had a manager who'd have screwed him over!!11," but his pittance of an income would have been the same after the label/manager screwed him over and it would have cut out much of the work he has to do, giving vastly more time for the ability to actually write and practice, aka actually grow as an artist.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 19, 2018)

RoRo56 said:


> I can't agree with this enough. I played in a fairly big local band in Ireland. We played shows all around the country, playing with international touring bands, headlining a couple of festivals. There were so many people who claimed to be huge fans and all they ever did was post about us online. While this was a great help, we lost so much money that the band just gave up in the end. We got 120 really good quality shirts with a design from Josh Middleton and I think we sold about half of them over an 18 month period.
> I think everyone wants local bands to succeed but aren't willing to do anything to actually help them out.


Ireland is the size of Indiana. It's not a huge market, lol. 
The problem is somewhere along the lines it became that you HAVE to basically give away your music or nobody will every notice you enough to make touring/merch/whatever any sort of way to even make supplemental income. Between YouTube and all the streaming services and bandcamp, you make a recording with the expectation of, at best, having it not COST anything by the time you need to make another one. I'm in bands that play regionally and I think we're pretty lucky that we're basically breaking even at this point. We can ask enough of the promoters to not have gas/expenses come out of pocket and we move enough merch that it pays for itself without us investing out-of-pocket when we need to re-up on a shirt or whatever. Most regionally touring bands that I know are basically doing it by saving money and vacation time from a regular old job and paying out of pocket for everything on the road.


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

To boil it down:

Sales aren't going to make you enough money to tour, and are certainly not going to cover the studio costs.
Touring isn't going to make you any money.
Selling merch might make you enough money to tour, but it's iffy.

So, seriously, as a band unit, there is no money to be made. You work your day job, you save up money to buy gear, you get together with other guys who worked at their day jobs to buy their gear, then you all work at your respective day jobs more to save up enough to do a release. Then you make no returns, so you have to save up again to go buy band merch to resell, and then to go on tour. If you're particularly lucky, you sell enough merch to cover your expenses of the tour, but, IME, you don't.

So where is the money being made? It's not. Shit, on my two-year old releases, I'm not even making enough money in sales to cover the renewal fees of online stores, so those are starting to cost me even more money - So, I took down most of my old stuff. Those old bands seemed to have decent social connection with the audience. Our shows were fun. People told us all of the time how much they liked the music. We released an album because people told us that they wanted it. We had a single on syndicated radio, which is huge, IMO, for an Indie artist. We did interviews, etc. For me, it seemed like there was much more attention on us than when I was in a fairly lucrative band in Detroit back in the early 2000's. But even with all of that going for us, our sales didn't even begin to cover our studio expenses. The subsequent tour lost even more money. It's like being in a moderately successful Indie band is just fucking expensive.

So, I'm focused on releasing weird-ass oddball music that no one will buy anyway now. Why should I record so much as one note that is at all informed by what people might want to hear? If they won't buy my records, and they won't buy my shirts, and they only come to my shows half of the time, I might as well record microtonal parrot metal.  Why should I treat making music like a job, if it costs me so much money?!


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Drew said:


> I think my bigger point is, if it requires people buying shirts at all the shows to make it economically viable, then something's wrong with the _model_. Going to a concert should be a simple economic transaction; I buy a ticket, a band plays. It shouldn't have to be an act of charity, and unless you as the band have some other form of revenue, it kind of is.



Agreed.


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## Rawkmann (Mar 19, 2018)

Just put out music normal people like.


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## Drew (Mar 19, 2018)

Rawkmann said:


> Just put out music normal people like.


What's the fun in that?  

Honestly, I like that I'm at peace with the fact I'll never make a ton of money from my music. It frees me to just write the stuff _I_ want to write.


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## feraledge (Mar 19, 2018)

Rawkmann said:


> Just put out music normal people like.


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## wankerness (Mar 19, 2018)

Rawkmann said:


> Just put out music normal people like.



If we went by that philosophy, we'd have two tracts of music:

1. Cover bands
2. Whatever corporations decide to shove down our throat


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 19, 2018)

Drew said:


> What's the fun in that?
> 
> Honestly, I like that I'm at peace with the fact I'll never make a ton of money from my music. It frees me to just write the stuff _I_ want to write.



That's exactly why I don't mind NOT being signed anymore. I'll put my music out on my own dime, own the masters, own the publishing, and be absolutely proud of the work that I've created, even if I'm only selling a few thousand cd's total.

It's not like hundreds of thousands of cd's per artist get moved anyway. A few years ago, when some friends in a 35+ year old Seattle band fired their singer, and put out a couple of new records, the latest hit Billboard at around #17 or so, and that was after about 6,000 cd's sold in about 3 weeks. So, it's nowhere near like the old days of the 70's & 80's when records went gold in the first month or two.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 19, 2018)

wankerness said:


> If we went by that philosophy, we'd have two tracts of music:
> 
> 1. Cover bands
> 2. Whatever corporations decide to shove down our throat


So Linda ronstadt and foreigner.


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## Stilicho (Mar 19, 2018)

The906 said:


> So Linda ronstadt and foreigner.


Just looked her up and goddamn Linda Ronstadt was a serious babe back in the day


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## sakeido (Mar 19, 2018)

Rawkmann said:


> Just put out music normal people like.



yeah this is good advice 

When bands who have screaming vocalists complain about not making any money, I go "well, no shit." Slipknot knew you gotta emphasize the cleans when they did the radio version of Wait and Bleed, and look how well that paid off 

Having an extremely whiny sounding singer will also destroy any hope of taking off. ditto for way over the top operatic guys (Protest the Hero, Leprous)


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

sakeido said:


> yeah this is good advice
> 
> When bands who have screaming vocalists complain about not making any money, I go "well, no shit." Slipknot knew you gotta emphasize the cleans when they did the radio version of Wait and Bleed, and look how well that paid off
> 
> Having an extremely whiny sounding singer will also destroy any hope of taking off. ditto for way over the top operatic guys (Protest the Hero, Leprous)


>whiny
>adam levine and chester bennington are the epitome of whiny


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

I'd wager Tom Delonge sounds much whinier than Bennington and that Blink 182 is the bigger band 

I think we all know there's more factors at play in making it in the pop field than how whiny your vocalist is .


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## Stilicho (Mar 19, 2018)

sakeido said:


> Having an extremely whiny sounding singer will also destroy any hope of taking off. ditto for way over the top operatic guys (Protest the Hero, Leprous)


This is actually what made me ignore Periphery after hearing the Juggernaut albums. The song Heavy Heart in particular could have been something amazing if the lyrics and vocals weren't so grating to listen to.

I went back to the first 2 albums recently though and the vocals there are a bit less whiny I think. Scarlet for example is much easier for me to listen to for some reason.



KnightBrolaire said:


> >whiny
> >adam levine and chester bennington are the epitome of whiny


I don't really think so, someone like Spencer from Periphery is the big example of what I think of when I hear whiny. We might be getting into very subjective territory here, but I think I get what sakeido means.

Think we also need a new word to be more precise here


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

Yeah, actually, while we are on the subject, which big-time successful bands from the past 5-7 years have non-whiny non-screamy ultra-consumer-friendly vocals?


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Yeah, actually, while we are on the subject, which big-time successful bands from the past 5-7 years have non-whiny non-screamy ultra-consumer-friendly vocals?


5FDP
Theory of A Deadman
Chevelle
*other butt rock top 20 bands besides nickelback*

Sam Smith
Sia
Bishop Briggs
Lorde
*other pop singers besides Levine*


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Yeah, actually, while we are on the subject, which big-time successful bands from the past 5-7 years have non-whiny non-screamy ultra-consumer-friendly vocals?


Never gonna give you up, never gonna give never gonna give. Oh wait that's old. 

thanks


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## Drew (Mar 19, 2018)

tl;dr - basically, a whole bunch of guitarists who aren't in famous, successful bands don't know what the exact formula is, in order to become a famous, successful band.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

Stilicho said:


> This is actually what made me ignore Periphery after hearing the Juggernaut albums. The song Heavy Heart in particular could have been something amazing if the lyrics and vocals weren't so grating to listen to.
> 
> I went back to the first 2 albums recently though and the vocals there are a bit less whiny I think. Scarlet for example is much easier for me to listen to for some reason.
> 
> ...


I thought spencer's voice was a terrible fit for the first couple of albums though he did a great job on alpha/omega and p3. I still remember how much I preferred Casey Sabol's vocals on the Icarus Lives demo. Hell, his voice still fits better with that track than spencer's ever did imo.
casey:

spencer:


Also: fuck trying to make money off of music, just become a pro fortnite streamer 
Tyler "Ninja" Blevins makes >500k a month streaming videogames due to twitch subscriptions/donations 
source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/f...681&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook


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## Fathand (Mar 19, 2018)

Drew said:


> tl;dr - basically, a whole bunch of guitarists who aren't in famous, successful bands don't know what the exact formula is, in order to become a famous, successful band.



Tru dat. If we were, and if we knew we would be too busy making money from music to write here!


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## Stilicho (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I thought spencer's voice was a terrible fit for the first couple of albums though he did a great job on alpha/omega and p3. I still remember how much I preferred Casey Sabol's vocals on the Icarus Lives demo. Hell, his voice still fits better with that track than spencer's ever did imo.
> casey:
> 
> spencer:



Wow, this is actually much better. Yeah, I don't know what it is but I guess it's really coming down to personal preference at this stage


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## scrub (Mar 19, 2018)

How about not selling a t-shirt for $35? The prices for merch at concerts is insane. I'm supposed to by a $40 ticket then spend another $35+ on merch. Plus more for beers, etc. Something is wrong with this model...as stated prior.


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> 5FDP


Band from 2005 with a cult following and not-really stand-out vocals.


KnightBrolaire said:


> Theory of A Deadman


Old band from ~2001 hasn't been relevant for a decade. Vocalist sounds just like all of the other bands from that era.


KnightBrolaire said:


> Chevelle


Band formed in 1995 who was popular ~2000. Not sure how that's even close to what I asked.

The rest are not bands.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Sam Smith


Became famous in 2012, but yeah, great radio voice.


KnightBrolaire said:


> Sia


She started her music career in 1997, but didn't score a reasonably big hit until 2013. I'm sure she can sing quite well, but the stuff I've heard isn't really unique, IMO, just kind of the same old pop-singing-style as just about every other female pop singer from the era.


KnightBrolaire said:


> Bishop Briggs


Never heard of that person. :/


KnightBrolaire said:


> Lorde


Active since 2009-2010, but Royals came out in 2013, so, okay.

So, frankly, none of those fit what I asked: "bands" from the "last 5-7 years" with "consumer-friendly vocals."

Conclusion - must not exist.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 19, 2018)

$35 isn't that much considering that it's only gone up $10 in about 30 years.
Back in the early 80's, we paid $25-$30 for shirts at concerts, and easily $15-$20 for tour programs. Inflation has been friendly to the consumer regarding this.


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## jsmalleus (Mar 19, 2018)

wankerness said:


> I would take the "crypto" wonkiness out of the post but agree that Youtube and Spotify, etc either have to go or start paying a bucketload to artists if any regular musician's going to make any livable wages in the industry ever again. The internet murdered income for musical artists, and people with this weird sunshiney outlook of "oh, it's fine, you just have to do x, x and x that you didn't have to before!!!" as if that means it's not any worse is crazy-talk.
> 
> Watching my brother have to split time between practicing and writing, trying like hell to find venues to play, having to track down other musicians to play with all the time (he plays jazz), trying to shop around compositions, having to subsidize recordings via crowdfunding, teaching lessons (half of which are ungrateful kiddos), all by himself, is really depressing. I know the sunshine crowd is like "WELL 20 years ago he'd have had a manager who'd have screwed him over!!11," but his pittance of an income would have been the same after the label/manager screwed him over and it would have cut out much of the work he has to do, giving vastly more time for the ability to actually write and practice, aka actually grow as an artist.




Totally agree, thankfully, I just do music for fun, but my drummer does it full time - much in the same manner as your brother - and anyone who thinks the gettin is as good as it was 10 or 20 years ago is delusional. I definitely don't think being required to do 20 different side hustles to not have music be a money pit should be the new accepted norm either.

The reality is youtube, spotify, etc. aren't going to increase how much they pay content creators, and honestly they're not going to increase what they collectively rake in themselves by much either. The current system is just garbage. The music industry resisted change in the transition to the web, so we're stuck with a reactionary infrastructure where "anything is better than nothing" reigns in terms of monetization rather than one built to meet the needs of artists as well as consumers. There are also still too many hands that don't belong to the creators in the pot clinging to what little coin they can hold on to just because there used to be enough in there for them to take a piece too & that's how they think it should be. We need a new model that accounts for where tech and societal trends are going before the existing model drives a great many more great musicians to hang it up and stop touring. The situation is pretty dire when even high profile acts can't make it work without juggling a ton of side hustles simultaneously.

I'm not particularly a crypto advocate, but I have to leave the wonkiness in for now because while distributed-ledger might not be the actual horse that pulls the cart in terms of getting back to musicians being paid for their work, it's the only horse I see lined up ready to even possibly facilitate that at the present. If it or any other tech could potentially help support the needs of the industry and allow more artists to start making livable wages for their work, I want to be a part of making that happen rather than be a stick in the mud moaning about how things are different from 20 years ago. The population isn't going to abandon the internet and go backwards in time and we can't force people to go out and seek music/art in the manner we did. They'll do what's convenient for them and another creator will be there to put their content in place of yours should you choose to abstain in protest, so nothing changes. One way or another artists have to take up a new monetization system and drive its adoption themselves. It's that or resign themselves to the realities of the existing system.


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## QuantumCybin (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Also: fuck trying to make money off of music, just become a pro fortnite streamer
> Tyler "Ninja" Blevins makes >500k a month streaming videogames due to twitch subscriptions/donations
> source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/fortnite-twitch-streamer-ninja-makes-more-than-500/1100-6457505/?ftag=GSS-05-10aab8d&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5ab0133e00bd470007ce0681&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook



Off topic but have you ever watched his stream? He is so obnoxious and has terrible sportsmanship. But hey, he makes a ton of money so he’s doing better than me lol. And he played Fortnite with Drake so what do I know


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Band from 2005 with a cult following and not-really stand-out vocals.
> Old band from ~2001 hasn't been relevant for a decade. Vocalist sounds just like all of the other bands from that era.
> Band formed in 1995 who was popular ~2000. Not sure how that's even close to what I asked.
> 
> ...


yeah I don't know how much you listen to the radio, but all of the bands I mentioned are still popular and still get regular play time on the radio, including newer singles. Theory of a Deadman is getting a lot of radio play lately because of their latest shit song, and 5FDP is getting a lot of play from their cover of an Offspring song. Lorde is just as popular and her last album was quite good, if a bit too samesy imo. Bishop Briggs has blown up in the last year or so, she's getting a lot of attention and she has an awesome voice:


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> Off topic but have you ever watched his stream? He is so obnoxious and has terrible sportsmanship. But hey, he makes a ton of money so he’s doing better than me lol. And he played Fortnite with Drake so what do I know


I have watched his streams, personally I can't stand him, but he is a damn good player. Watching him play with Shroud was pretty entertaining, especially since I really like shroud (he's the complete opposite of ninja personality wise).


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Sounds like I need to get into this crypto thing.


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## Stilicho (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah I don't know how much you listen to the radio, but all of the bands I mentioned are still popular and still get regular play time on the radio, including newer singles. Theory of a Deadman is getting a lot of radio play lately because of their latest shit song, and 5FDP is getting a lot of play from their cover of an Offspring song. Lorde is just as popular and her last album was quite good, if a bit too samesy imo. Bishop Briggs has blown up in the last year or so, she's getting a lot of attention and she has an awesome voice:



Lorde is great, her song Tennis Court is a big guilty pleasure of mine


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

Stilicho said:


> Lorde is great, her song Tennis Court is a big guilty pleasure of mine


 I really dig her music in general. You'd probably like Phox, london grammar or oh land since you like Lorde.


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## MikeH (Mar 19, 2018)

Niche metal band doesn’t make money.



In other news, the sky is blue.


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## Stilicho (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I really dig her music in general. You'd probably like Phox, london grammar or oh land since you like Lorde.


I'm trying to find more good female vocalists recently since I'm a big fan of female vocals, though I dislike them in metal, so I'll check all of them out.

Bjork is another one I'm a big fan of, Army of Me, Thunderbolt and Joga are good places to jump in.

And here's a good one I found from a FabFilter tutorial lol:


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## bostjan (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah I don't know how much you listen to the radio, but all of the bands I mentioned are still popular and still get regular play time on the radio, including newer singles. Theory of a Deadman is getting a lot of radio play lately because of their latest shit song, and 5FDP is getting a lot of play from their cover of an Offspring song. Lorde is just as popular and her last album was quite good, if a bit too samesy imo. Bishop Briggs has blown up in the last year or so, she's getting a lot of attention and she has an awesome voice:



I guess it doesn't mean anything to sound not-the-same-as-everyone-else. This shouldn't surprise me. I'm sure all of the hair metal bands sounded exactly the same to the people who grew up listening to Hermann's Hermits.
I've never been into Theory of a Deadman. The first time I heard them, I honestly didn't think they were a new band until the DJ said their name. They sound like Nickelback to me. In fact, so does 50% of the post-grunge genre. If they're still getting on the radio, good for them, although I honestly have not heard them on the radio in years. In my case, though, our radio stations here in the middle of nowhere only play country or classic rock, and when I travel, I never seem to be able to find any modern rock stations anywhere I go.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

bostjan said:


> I guess it doesn't mean anything to sound not-the-same-as-everyone-else. This shouldn't surprise me. I'm sure all of the hair metal bands sounded exactly the same to the people who grew up listening to Hermann's Hermits.
> I've never been into Theory of a Deadman. The first time I heard them, I honestly didn't think they were a new band until the DJ said their name. They sound like Nickelback to me. In fact, so does 50% of the post-grunge genre. If they're still getting on the radio, good for them, although I honestly have not heard them on the radio in years. In my case, though, our radio stations here in the middle of nowhere only play country or classic rock, and when I travel, I never seem to be able to find any modern rock stations anywhere I go.


Theory of a Deadman is a shitty band imo, but hey, they get people to listen to their boring ass music. the only reason I know they even have a new single is because I heard it on the local hard rock station, same with 5FDP's cover. We have a lot of radio stations up here and get pretty good diversity as far as the stuff you can hear.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 19, 2018)

MikeH said:


> Niche metal band doesn’t make money.
> 
> 
> 
> In other news, the sky is blue.


So you're saying my new GrammarCore concept isn't going to take off?


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

Stilicho said:


> I'm trying to find more good female vocalists recently since I'm a big fan of female vocals, though I dislike them in metal, so I'll check all of them out.
> 
> Bjork is another one I'm a big fan of, Army of Me, Thunderbolt and Joga are good places to jump in.
> 
> And here's a good one I found from a FabFilter tutorial lol:



bjork is great. I'd swear there's something magical about Iceland since it churns out a lot of musicians for such a small country. Must be the shit weather, that's part of why the music scene here is pretty good


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## Zalbu (Mar 19, 2018)

Periphery could easily become a radio rock band if they wanted to since they actually genuinely enjoy pop music and add those influences to their music compared to bands like Disturbed and Five Finger Death Punch who try to come off as s00per serious hardasses but just end up looking ungenuine and play watered down, lowest common denominator metal. But they don't want to because they write music that they themselves want to write, and more power to them.

And on the topic on how bands should make money, I really think more bands should go with the Patreon model where the fans can just throw a lump of change every month to the bands they want to support. Protest the Hero had great success with it and they're not exactly the biggest or most commercial metal band out there. Just judging by monthly listeners on Spotify, Protest have 100 000 listeners per month while Periphery have 250 000, and Protest was one of the biggest prog metal acts before the djent craze took over.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 19, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Periphery could easily become a radio rock band if they wanted to since they actually genuinely enjoy pop music and add those influences to their music compared to bands like Disturbed and Five Finger Death Punch who try to come off as s00per serious hardasses but just end up looking ungenuine and play watered down, lowest common denominator metal. But they don't want to because they write music that they themselves want to write, and more power to them.
> 
> And on the topic on how bands should make money, I really think more bands should go with the Patreon model where the fans can just throw a lump of change every month to the bands they want to support. Protest the Hero had great success with it and they're not exactly the biggest or most commercial metal band out there.


exactly. I'd rather throw some cash at a band knowing that it's going directly to them instead of venues/other people. PTH's latest album is sick.


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## Zalbu (Mar 19, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> exactly. I'd rather throw some cash at a band knowing that it's going directly to them instead of venues/other people. PTH's latest album is sick.


Imagine how many times you would have to stream a song on Spotify for the band to just get 10 bucks when you could give them 10 bucks a month directly, and that's ignoring the fact that the labels and all that crap gets most of the money from streaming and very little of it goes to the artists. And even if you do buy albums, it's not like bands release 12 albums a year and it would be kinda silly to buy the same album over and over again just to support the band.


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## jaxadam (Mar 19, 2018)

Guys, it's pretty simple. I played a show St. Patrick's Day for 1 million people and charged a dollar a ticket. I told the venue to fuck off and walked with a cool mil. Profit.

I have done this every day for the last 50 years and I'm still broke.

So that's 1 mil a day x 365 days x 50 years = 18 billion dollars and I have no idea where it all went.


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## bulb (Mar 19, 2018)

It's interesting to see everyone's projections (minus jaxadam's) seem to completely overestimate the gross based off of ball park estimations, and completely ignore very real costs that go into touring.

As I said in my interview with Rick Beato, the big problem with touring nowadays is that a band's ability to earn has decreased drastically due to many factors in the modern music industry, and yet the costs of touring are about the same.

Couple this with about 35-40% of your income going to taxes AFTER you have paid everyone out and AFTER you have split things up with your band, and you might understand why it can be hard to take home substantial money after a tour. 

Add to this that you may be able to bring something back on a domestic headliner, but for those tours to work and for your guarantees to go up and not stagnate or decrease from tour to tour, you need to do them strategically. It can be very hard for a US band to do 3-4 headlining tours in the US a year and have those tours actually be successful. This market is already oversaturated, and then you are overexposing yourself and diluting your brand.

So once again: Work on diversifying your income streams, and then you don't need to stress. You don't need to do what I did, find things that work for you in your context, and work hard at those!


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## Zalbu (Mar 19, 2018)

bulb said:


> So once again: Work on diversifying your income streams, and then you don't need to stress. You don't need to do what I did, find things that work for you in your context, and work hard at those!


That's what I was saying, that Patreon is just another income stream where the fans can support the artists directly. But I wonder if bands would run into problems with their labels if they went with it, like the whole mess with Wintersuns Kickstarter, and that they'd have to go independent like Protest.


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## Vyn (Mar 19, 2018)

I'm currently working a decent paying office job and spending the next 2-3 years investing in some long term schemes to set me up for a position where I can earn enough to live off of those small investments. After that I theoretically should be able to go full time into music and not have to worry about anything other than creating and performing for fun. Personally I think setting yourself up with investments and strategies outside of music is the way to go at the moment.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

bulb said:


> It's interesting to see everyone's projections (minus jaxadam's) seem to completely overestimate the gross based off of ball park estimations, and completely ignore very real costs that go into touring.



I've just been trying to get people to realize why their touring friends ask them to come to their shows when they're on the road. I can't actually afford to keep doing this. As a guy losing thousands of dollars in lost income and expenses per year, I like to think I know some of the costs involved.


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## mongey (Mar 19, 2018)

can you make some kind of living , yeah I know a few guys who do

But they live in share houses, drive a fucked up shitbox , eat shit take away food ,buy the cheapst beer .petty much live it as a lifestyle. which is great when your young . but when you have to grow up then that's where it gets hard

want a nice place to live and have money to spend on nice things .better get a girl, or guy , who earns a good wage and is happy to support your ass or you need to diversify

I know plenty musos who also do live sound and stuff around the industry to help support . but to earn a living they are pretty much rehearsing, gigging or working sound., not much life outside that which is great if that's what you want


one things for sure if a band as talented and big as periphery cant do it on music alone then we pretty much all fucked and it aint gonna get better


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 19, 2018)

I make more in a call center than many of my professional musician friends that have received grammy nominations.

It's just the world we live in now, such as it is.


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## mongey (Mar 19, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I make more in a call center than many of my professional musician friends that have received grammy nominations.
> 
> It's just the world we live in now, such as it is.


tru dat

funny thing is the guy who I know who has made the most did soundscapes for a few seasons of a crime tv show.. It still plays around the world on various channels and he still gets cheques for $10K here and there and it was 10 years ago


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## Hollowway (Mar 19, 2018)

Off topic, but it bothers me how much money silicon valley start ups are making off of being middle men. Spotify is just like Uber, Airbnb, etc. They bring nothing to the table, other than coordinating a buyer and a seller. It definitely has a value, but I'm not sure it should be making billionaires out of people, whilst the sellers get virtually nothing.


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## budda (Mar 19, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Off topic, but it bothers me how much money silicon valley start ups are making off of being middle men. Spotify is just like Uber, Airbnb, etc. They bring nothing to the table, other than coordinating a buyer and a seller. It definitely has a value, but I'm not sure it should be making billionaires out of people, whilst the sellers get virtually nothing.



Capitalism amirite?


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## cmtd (Mar 19, 2018)

Whats stopping either of you from starting a similar company? Obviously people are interested in paying for their services. Sounds more like jealousy.


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## sakeido (Mar 19, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Off topic, but it bothers me how much money silicon valley start ups are making off of being middle men. Spotify is just like Uber, Airbnb, etc. They bring nothing to the table, other than coordinating a buyer and a seller. It definitely has a value, but I'm not sure it should be making billionaires out of people, whilst the sellers get virtually nothing.



nerds ruin everything


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 19, 2018)

Periphery IV: This Time It’s Patreon


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## Hollowway (Mar 20, 2018)

cmtd said:


> Whats stopping either of you from starting a similar company? Obviously people are interested in paying for their services. Sounds more like jealousy.



Oh my god, thank you Capt Obvious.  Of course I’m jealous of billionaires, and of course I don’t want to take on the ridiculous odds stacked against me doing a start up. I think literally every taxi diver and musician is jealous of Uber and Spotify, respectively.


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## Hollowway (Mar 20, 2018)

budda said:


> Capitalism amirite?



Urrite, haha. But I prefer capitalism that makes stuff. I like to have something to show for my gluttonous consumption.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 20, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Urrite, haha. But I prefer capitalism that makes stuff. I like to have something to show for my gluttonous consumption.


YOU GET NOTHING! You lose!


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## Hollowway (Mar 20, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> YOU GET NOTHING! You lose!




Best movie line ever. When I say that around friends they look at me like I suddenly turned into an asshole. Glad to see I’m not the only one who remembers it!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 20, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Best movie line ever. When I say that around friends they look at me like I suddenly turned into an asshole. Glad to see I’m not the only one who remembers it!




Fucking marks.


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## Vyn (Mar 20, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> YOU GET NOTHING! You lose!




Completely off topic, but fuck Johnny Depp, Gene Wilder is the only Willy Wonka <3


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 20, 2018)

Vyn said:


> Completely off topic, but fuck Johnny Depp, Gene Wilder is the only Willy Wonka <3


Agreed.


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## blacai (Mar 20, 2018)

And then this guy:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...ture_not_even_just_listening_to_my_music.html
I am happy I have a well paid job doing more or less what I studied for. I know some people who play in bands touring as headliners in Germany and as supporters in Europe and they still lose money each tour. They hardly manage to cost all expenses unless the main band is f*** famous. All of them have a second "real" job to fund music touring.
It is really sad, but that's the true, they spend more time doing the job where they get no benefits.


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## oc616 (Mar 20, 2018)

blacai said:


> And then this guy:
> https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...ture_not_even_just_listening_to_my_music.html
> I am happy I have a well paid job doing more or less what I studied for. I know some people who play in bands touring as headliners in Germany and as supporters in Europe and they still lose money each tour. They hardly manage to cost all expenses unless the main band is f*** famous. All of them have a second "real" job to fund music touring.
> It is really sad, but that's the true, they spend more time doing the job where they get no benefits.



It ties in with another trend I've noticed, the average time between album releases increasing. Likely down to having to work a job to pay for that studio time/fund a tour.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 20, 2018)

oc616 said:


> It ties in with another trend I've noticed, the average time between album releases increasing. Likely down to having to work a job to pay for that studio time/fund a tour.


It's because of how long it takes, even with a 360 deal, to repay the loan, aka advance. But the problem is that the momentum from an album has died by the time the follow up arrives, and even if it hasn't -- usually it has resulted in people hyping it up, holding it to a super high level, and then never being able to enjoy anything from them after on a similar level -- the band either splits, can't follow it up or whatever. Compare that to the 60s and 70s when The Beatles and KISS were releasing albums every six months. The Beatles released 12 studio albums in 7 years. The turn around at the time was a year, and the record companies got pissed if you took longer. For instance, Boston's follow-up to their Diamond selling debut resulted in the record company basically releasing the album despite whether or not Tom Scholz felt it was ready for release. 

So basically, we're more "connected" -- without even actually getting to interact with them unless we give them shit tons of money in a lot of cases -- with bands than ever, yet we get less of what we actually give a shit about, and eventually move on by the time the next album comes around. So you've got basically a core group of people whom amass slowly over time and will probably follow the band regardless until the band retires, the person grows tired of the type of music they play, or whatever. Then you have the mass of people who buy the majority of the records, I call these the Dynasty fans, whom may or may not buy the next album, and chances are, probably won't. They can make one album sell great, and the next album sell like total shit -- mostly because they've left -- and in the process, you risk running off the slowly amassing "lifer" type fans. 

This is part of why The Black Album sold 10+ million copies and was certified Diamond, and why Load and Reload only sold half of that. In all fairness, though, had Metallica released it as a double album like Mellon Collie instead of two separate albums like Use Your Illusion, the album would've been another Diamond selling record while only selling the same 5 million records as Load sold.


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## bostjan (Mar 20, 2018)

Maybe not that big of a factor, but a vinyl 12" microgroove LP would typically hold about 22-23 minutes of music on each side, and a CD holds 74-80 minutes on a single side. Not just that an LP would hold a little over half the play time of a CD, but the progression of songs had to be just so, in order to not end up with part of a song on one side and the rest of the same song on the other side (unless you are Jethro Tull, making 45 minute long songs, in which case your single song takes up both sides of the record). When CDs and LP overlapped, it was commonplace for the artist/label to include 1-2 bonus tracks on the CD, usually of filler material, which, after LPs went away, translated into ~10 minutes longer playtime of releases, which means more music coming out per cycle, which could explain a little bit of the longer cycle times between albums. But, then again, 20% more music per release doesn't really justify >100% more time between releases.

The other thing is that the recording industry kept increasing the number of artists releasing material, from the 30's up to the 90's, so for one artist to release more material with that much more competition started getting crazy.

But yeah, I agree with the analysis that the primary reason is slower/more paltry returns. A record in 1976 went for around $8-10, with up to half going to the artist. A stream in 2016 netted the artist 2/3rds of a penny per song. So 100k in record sales in 1976 = $50k in profit. To make that in streams in 2016, it'd take 7.5 million streams.


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## Andromalia (Mar 20, 2018)

For reference, when I saw Periphery, Devin Townsend was the headliner and the venue they played in has officially 1389 capacity. In Paris, France, a 15 million people urban area, counting suburbs.
Bought a few tshirts there, but not taking Visa/Mastercard for merch, cash only, sounded shady as fuck.


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## jaxadam (Mar 20, 2018)

bulb said:


> It's interesting to see everyone's projections (minus jaxadam's)



You're right, I completely forgot about leap years, so that's another 12 million right there.


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## Ebony (Mar 20, 2018)

I know alot of you have tried to say this but here it is summed up in a sentence:

MUSIC IS WORTHLESS, ZIMBABWE DOLLAR KIND OF WORTHLESS.

And regarding slower album releases, this trend dates back almost a couple of decades by now. And I'm not surprised. It's difficult to work 6-10 hours a day in order to spew out a inspired masterpiece every second year when you work 50 hours a week mopping floors at the grocery store or chasing brats in pre-school because your "devoted" fans don't care enough to pay the price of a pack of chewing gum to keep you from drowning.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 20, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Truth. The guitars, pickups, pedals, drum samples, etc. Honestly, they are all mediocre. If it wasn't for the artist name slapped on those products, many folks (including some of you guys on here) would've probably passed them up.



I think Nolly's bass is an amazing product. I've never played a better bass than the NG-2 at that price point. In fact, that bass is better (for metal at least) than Warwicks and Fenders which were 2x the price.

Getgood drums is also a solid product. The sounds are good. It's easy to use. And you can get it for $50 if you just wait for their numerous sales. If you don't need a full-on 80GB suite which costs $500, and you just want a solid metal drum kit, GGD is amazing.

Mark's PRS SE guitar is also a solid instrument. They cut a couple of corners, but that has been amazingly successful for PRS, and I've played 3 of those models and they've all been great.

Never played with Misha's pedals or amp, but I can only assume they are good. Definitely not mediocre.



chipchappy said:


> Well, if we're talking top 40 pop then yeah, sex appeal is a factor... but do I see Periphery getting to a place where they're as mainstream/radio friendly as Five Finger Death Punch, Disturbed or Godsmack? Absolutely no doubt about it.



Ok, that's true. When someone said "commercial and radio-friendly" I thought of top 40.



bostjan said:


> I think a part of the change is how music, for me at least, used to be a lot more social. If I heard a cool new band, it was because someone introduced me to them or because they were opening up for another band I liked. Either way, it was a social experience, and I would make sure to pass it on by talking about this new band I heard with my friends and encouraging them to check the band out. In 2018, if I heard a new band, it's because I found them in a google search or they came up on my stream as recommended (by whatever computer algorithm). Not to knock the new way of discovery, but the old organic, more social experience seems to be a lot less prominent, and my friends (maybe because they are just older or because they are sick of hearing music stuff from me) have little interest in checking out the bands I recommend.
> 
> Making a tape for somebody used to be a bonding experience. It's a lot more effort than sending them an IM with a link to youtube, and I think that people used to accept the tape recordings with more eagerness, because it was something you put effort into, whereas an IM'd youtube link is easy to write off.
> 
> Hell, as much as I hated waiting in line to buy advance tickets, one plus was standing next to someone else with similar musical tastes and striking up a conversation with that person about the band for which you are both there to buy tickets. Maybe you'd run into the same person at the actual show.



Agree with all of this. I remember mix tapes and having to borrow from friends to make a copy of a particular song. And I also remember the slightly more modern equivalent of Limewire/Kazaa and having to download those mp3 files on at a time, transfer them to the computer with the CD burner by using windup and floppy disks, then burn them to CD. You would listen to the hell out of that tape or CD because it took a lot of effort to put together. Sending/receiving a Youtube link is absolutely no comparison in terms of the attention I will dedicate to it.

We are now spoiled for choice. Too many things competing for our attention. 500 channels on my TV, plus Netflix/Amazon. I have 50,000,000 songs I can listen to anywhere in the world. We have short attention spans, expect immediate gratification, and sadly I can't see it "improving" at all.



Hollowway said:


> Off topic, but it bothers me how much money silicon valley start ups are making off of being middle men. Spotify is just like Uber, Airbnb, etc. They bring nothing to the table, other than coordinating a buyer and a seller. It definitely has a value, but I'm not sure it should be making billionaires out of people, whilst the sellers get virtually nothing.



Those services added MASSIVE value for customers and have totally changed entire industries - usually by dragging them kicking and screaming. You've probably forgotten how bad things used to be!

A CD used to cost £12. I remember queuing at stores when albums came out. I remember when things were selectively released in different countries in completely different months, or when different countries would get different songs on albums. Now Spotify costs less than that for a whole month of unlimited listening. They got together all those different record labels and stupid distribution rights nonsense and have absolutely overhauled the entire industry, for the better IMO.

Same with AirBnb. They've forced hotels to step up their game, and they've also legitimised the whole "couch surfing" thing which used to be a pretty risky game. It's totally changed the tourism industry, letting people have much more "genuine" experiences visiting new places.


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## sakeido (Mar 20, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> I think Nolly's bass is an amazing product. I've never played a better bass than the NG-2 at that price point. In fact, that bass is better (for metal at least) than Warwicks and Fenders which were 2x the price.
> 
> Getgood drums is also a solid product. The sounds are good. It's easy to use. And you can get it for $50 if you just wait for their numerous sales. If you don't need a full-on 80GB suite which costs $500, and you just want a solid metal drum kit, GGD is amazing.
> 
> ...



it's weird your post starts with you giving a shit about individual artists, going as far to shill their stuff, then ends with you not giving the slightest fuck about individual artists. you have read all these articles right?

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/05/16/spotify-audiam-low-rates/

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/11/02/spotify-music-kickup-royalties/

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/06/21/spotify-million-royalty-indie-tunecore/

Spotify is only better than people pirating everything... It is undeniably *far* worse in every way than the traditional way of doing business. Spotify streams sound like garbage, so you aren't hearing it the way you are meant to hear it. I dunno about yours but since I don't pay for it so I can't actually listen to albums in sequence, so you don't get the flow the band intended. The artist makes actual fractions of a penny, even less than they do off traditional album sales. If you only listen to music on Spotify, you aren't support ANY of the bands you listen to...

AirBnB is half decent, except where it destroys the local renter market, massively inflating pricing, making it so nobody can actually afford to live in a city because people would rather host AirBnBs than actual tenants

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ain-tourist-towns-are-cracking-down-on-airbnb

and then Uber

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...hailing-independent-contractors-a8237541.html

Those guys make next to nothing and their stated goal is to destroy the taxi business then lay off all of their workers.

https://mashable.com/2016/01/07/uber-lyft-self-driving-cars/#r8L4AQBeKuqg

fuck these "businesses" and the people who start them


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## Avedas (Mar 20, 2018)

If a single company can offer a service and completely disrupt an entire industry, there was probably something about that industry that needed fundamental changes in the first place. It's no surprise if a consumer-unfriendly industry falls on its face when a company shows up and successfully offers a very consumer-friendly service.


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## Zalbu (Mar 20, 2018)

Spotify is barely a step above pirating, yes, but remember that most of the money goes to the labels. Very little of the money that streaming generates actually goes to the artists unless they're independent.


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## couverdure (Mar 20, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Periphery IV: This Time It’s Patreon


You know it's a sad state of affairs when a different set of people give more likes to this post than the post from the person this topic is referring to.


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## bulb (Mar 20, 2018)

The point is, have fun making music, don't expect a career out of it, and if you do make a career out of it then try to diversify your income!


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## ArtDecade (Mar 20, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> For reference, when I saw Periphery, Devin Townsend was the headliner and the venue they played in has officially 1389 capacity. In Paris, France, a 15 million people urban area, counting suburbs.



Well, that's metal. Niche market.


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## Eptaceros (Mar 20, 2018)

bulb said:


> The point is, have fun making music, don't expect a career out of it, and if you do make a career out of it then try to diversify your income!



Instrumental album versions when?!


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 20, 2018)

sakeido said:


> it's weird your post starts with you giving a shit about individual artists, going as far to shill their stuff, then ends with you not giving the slightest fuck about individual artists. you have read all these articles right?



Shilling? Really? That's a bit of an accusation.

And anyway, I can enjoy some products from artists and also like streaming music. I like good stuff, and I like convenience. Trying to lump the two together is making a false equivalence. I'm not going to massively inconvenience myself to demonstrate my "giving a shit" about artists.



> https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/05/16/spotify-audiam-low-rates/
> 
> https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/11/02/spotify-music-kickup-royalties/
> 
> ...



Define "better". Better for the artist? I don't actually care. It's their problem figuring out how to make money. Better for the consumer? Spotify is unquestionably better. Now I get all the latest albums immediately. Literally minutes after worldwide release. And it costs less than buying a CD cost 10 years ago.

People WERE pirating everything - myself included. Now I pirate nothing at all and haven't for years. I'd wager that Spotify basically saved the music industry. You can't just argue that things should have stayed exactly the same since the 1990's.



> Spotify streams sound like garbage, so you aren't hearing it the way you are meant to hear it. I dunno about yours but since I don't pay for it so I can't actually listen to albums in sequence, so you don't get the flow the band intended. The artist makes actual fractions of a penny, even less than they do off traditional album sales. If you only listen to music on Spotify, you aren't support ANY of the bands you listen to...



Oops. If you pay for Spotify, you can stream in far higher quality and access full albums no problem. Why would they give bandwidth and better service to cheap freeloaders?



> AirBnB is half decent, except where it destroys the local renter market, massively inflating pricing, making it so nobody can actually afford to live in a city because people would rather host AirBnBs than actual tenants
> 
> http://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ain-tourist-towns-are-cracking-down-on-airbnb



That's not AirBnb's fault. Blame the house owners. Blame the city. AirBnB provides a ridiculously amazing service. I've stayed all over the world in AirBnb apartments, and they've almost always been great. I had far better experiences than just checking myself into whatever chain hotel.



> and then Uber
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...hailing-independent-contractors-a8237541.html
> 
> ...



Fine by me. Taxi companies are essentially mafia-like organisations anyway - limited numbers of badges/medallions where drivers need to pay in. A NYC taxi medallion costs like a million dollars - the whole thing is a scam. A monopoly, supported by the city which is bending over for the taxi lobbyists/unions.

With the invention of GPS, you don't need experienced drivers any more, and that market badly needed opening up. And clear the demand for Uber/Lyft proves that people love the service.

Not to mention the fake taxis that were a huge problem 15-20 years ago, the inability to know where your wife was when she took a taxi etc. Uber/Lyft have reviews, optional live GPS tracking of your friends, and they keep a record of every single journey.

Things modernise. Horse and cart operators went out of business too. Taxi drivers will go. Truck drivers will go too fairly soon. And yes, making money from CDs is dead and gone. All of these changes are good.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 20, 2018)

couverdure said:


> You know it's a sad state of affairs when a different set of people give more likes to this post than the post from the person this topic is referring to.



In fairness, Misha's post didn't contribute anything we didn't already know. He just repeated what he said in the Youtube video linked on the first page.


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## Rawkmann (Mar 20, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Oops. If you pay for Spotify, you can stream in far higher quality and access full albums no problem. Why would they give bandwidth and better service to cheap freeloaders?



Still junk quality compared to physical audio CDs. And I do have a paid Spotify account. It's convenient sure but I can't pretend the audio quality is anything to write home about.


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## sakeido (Mar 20, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Shilling? Really? That's a bit of an accusation.
> 
> And anyway, I can enjoy some products from artists and also like streaming music. I like good stuff, and I like convenience. Trying to lump the two together is making a false equivalence. I'm not going to massively inconvenience myself to demonstrate my "giving a shit" about artists.



Yes, it is crazy, crazy inconvenient to buy a download of an album from a place like Bandcamp. Extremely inconvenient. I have to go to the library and download it to a USB stick, because for some reason I can't download things on my home computer, laptop or the phone that is in my pocket at all times



> Define "better". Better for the artist? I don't actually care.



That much is extremely clear



> I'd wager that Spotify basically saved the music industry. You can't just argue that things should have stayed exactly the same since the 1990's.



The music industry did not actually need "saving" per so. Vinyl probably does more to shore up the music business than Spotify does -- did you actually read any of those articles?



> Oops. If you pay for Spotify, you can stream in far higher quality and access full albums no problem. Why would they give bandwidth and better service to cheap freeloaders?



I've got a big stack of vinyls and CDs at home that proves I'm not at all a freeloader. The way I see it, Spotify is actually the freeloading leech here... they provide basically nothing and pay next to nothing, but make billions.



> That's not AirBnb's fault. Blame the house owners. Blame the city. AirBnB provides a ridiculously amazing service. I've stayed all over the world in AirBnb apartments, and they've almost always been great. I had far better experiences than just checking myself into whatever chain hotel.



You completely and entirely missed the point. AirBnb is actually at fault, here. That's why it is usually directly named in all of these cases (Banff, Canmore, San Francisco, Detroit, New York, parts of London, Vancouver......)



> Fine by me. Taxi companies are essentially mafia-like organisations anyway - limited numbers of badges/medallions where drivers need to pay in. A NYC taxi medallion costs like a million dollars - the whole thing is a scam. A monopoly, supported by the city which is bending over for the taxi lobbyists/unions.



Those taxi medallions were valuable assets to the drivers themselves, part of their retirement plans in some cases, and driving a cab was one of the only jobs open to new immigrants. It was a common way for new families to get a start in a new country... it's not gone yet, but it's going. 235,000 jobs on the block so a couple nerds (who are, by all accounts, complete assholes) can make a billion dollars



> Not to mention the fake taxis that were a huge problem 15-20 years ago, the inability to know where your wife was when she took a taxi etc. Uber/Lyft have reviews, optional live GPS tracking of your friends, and they keep a record of every single journey.



You don't see anything problematic with anything you just said here? It is a good thing they can keep tabs on all of your movements? You don't trust your wife, and need to be able to find out exactly where she's going? You want more surveillance of yourself and the people close to you, not less? The fuck?



> Things modernise. Horse and cart operators went out of business too. Taxi drivers will go. Truck drivers will go too fairly soon. And yes, making money from CDs is dead and gone. All of these changes are good.



Taxi and truck drivers all gone - that's over 3.5 million jobs, erased. Nothing wrong with that, eh?


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## LordGloom (Mar 20, 2018)

bulb said:


> The point is, have fun making music, don't expect a career out of it, and if you do make a career out of it then try to diversify your income!


This is great, simple advice that seems to be getting lost in this thread (which I have enjoyed reading quite a bit). Please re-post this after every couple pages of arguing.


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## Hollowway (Mar 20, 2018)

@Flappydoodle Just because an 800 lbs gorilla can shake up an industry doesn't mean it needs shaking up. The Mafia shakes up industries, governments and militaries shake up things, and I don't know that those are needing to be shaken up. These industries aren't being shaken up to help the end user. They're being shaken up to make money. That's 100% it. Obviously they harness the end user, because someone has to drive it, but that's hardly the goal. There are solutions to get artists more money. I would say the biggest one is to not keep negotiating less pay per play in order to make the company more money. Call me a communist or socialist, but I think that when a society puts money above all else, we lose a lot of art, culture, and enjoyment along the way.


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## groverj3 (Mar 20, 2018)

I'm doing my best not to make too many assumptions about Flappydoodle's character based on that post, but it's not easy.


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## groverj3 (Mar 20, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> @Flappydoodle Just because an 800 lbs gorilla can shake up an industry doesn't mean it needs shaking up. The Mafia shakes up industries, governments and militaries shake up things, and I don't know that those are needing to be shaken up. These industries aren't being shaken up to help the end user. They're being shaken up to make money. That's 100% it. Obviously they harness the end user, because someone has to drive it, but that's hardly the goal. There are solutions to get artists more money. I would say the biggest one is to not keep negotiating less pay per play in order to make the company more money. Call me a communist or socialist, but I think that when a society puts money above all else, we lose a lot of art, culture, and enjoyment along the way.



Yeah, that's it exactly. So many people assume that "disrupting" an industry results in a net benefit for everyone. What they don't realize is that in this world the only thing that matters is whether the corporate types are making enough money. That's how every decision at a high enough level is made. Generally speaking, the role of a firm is to extract labor from workers and pay them as little as possible for it. If a company finds a new and exciting way to exploit its workers with few to no repercussions for them, then of course they'll do it.

In the music industry it only matters that bands/musicians can make enough money to keep putting out music. It doesn't matter to the record labels or spotify that the artists don't actually make anything more than that because it doesn't directly benefit them. They've figured out that artists will still make music for peanuts, so they'll pay them peanuts.

I'm actually kind of surprised it's not worse. What's the prog/metal listenership like? On a global scale, compared to top 40s? The only reason that labels probably still exist for such bands is that they existed before the rise of spotify and the like and they have "some" pressure on them since they're not diversified into other genres of music. So, again they aren't making enough money, hence paying artists less, and the artists know they have no other option so they do it anyway.


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## bulb (Mar 20, 2018)

LordGloom said:


> This is great, simple advice that seems to be getting lost in this thread (which I have enjoyed reading quite a bit). Please re-post this after every couple pages of arguing.



I'm glad you think so, I feel like everyone is ignoring it because they want to yell a lot and be right on the internet haha. To be fair that's par for the course, though!


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## Cynicanal (Mar 20, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> Yeah, that's it exactly. So many people assume that "disrupting" an industry results in a net benefit for everyone. What they don't realize is that in this world the only thing that matters is whether the corporate types are making enough money. That's how every decision at a high enough level is made. Generally speaking, the role of a firm is to extract labor from workers and pay them as little as possible for it. If a company finds a new and exciting way to exploit its workers with few to no repercussions for them, then of course they'll do it.
> 
> In the music industry it only matters that bands/musicians can make enough money to keep putting out music. It doesn't matter to the record labels or spotify that the artists don't actually make anything more than that because it doesn't directly benefit them. They've figured out that artists will still make music for peanuts, so they'll pay them peanuts.
> 
> I'm actually kind of surprised it's not worse. What's the prog/metal listenership like? On a global scale, compared to top 40s? The only reason that labels probably still exist for such bands is that they existed before the rise of spotify and the like and they have "some" pressure on them since they're not diversified into other genres of music. So, again they aren't making enough money, hence paying artists less, and the artists know they have no other option so they do it anyway.


In order to disrupt an industry and overcome the advantages that incumbents have, a new company has to be doing something to make themselves significantly more attractive to customers. In the case of taxis and hotels, it should be obvious why Uber and Air BnB are more desirable.


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## JSanta (Mar 20, 2018)

Something to think about (the data is a couple of years old, but still relevant to this discussion).

https://www.arts.gov/news/2015/surprising-findings-three-new-nea-reports-arts 
http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/sites...d-file/Value_arts_culture_evidence_review.pdf 

I think part of the problem is that as a society we don't view art the way we used to. I'm sure saturation plays a part, but I honestly don't believe we as a society value art and artists the way we did even 30-40 years ago. Anecdotally, I've had conversations with people about why I still buy CDs (because I love physical media), and they comment that it's just music, you can listen for free on Pandora or YouTube or whatever. And I think that's part of the overall problem - access has to an extent devalued the experience of art in general. 

As I get older (and that I moved to a smaller city), I don't generally get out to a show during the week. Many of the artists I really enjoy are charging $100+ for tickets and I can't justify the cost. Am I part of the problem? Absolutely.


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## Cynicanal (Mar 20, 2018)

Let's be real, normal adults (that is, people who have money) haven't cared about music in the lifetimes of anyone posting here. Rock and pop sales have always been driven by kids and twenty-somethings. Society's view of art didn't change; no one ever really valued music aside for a very brief historical blip where it could be marketed profitably to teenagers.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 20, 2018)

The internet made paying for music unnecessary. I used to have to pay €30-35 for Nuclear Blast albums when I was younger. Now anyone can search and listen to those albums in under half a minute on youtube or spotify. You can't reverse technology so the majority of people are never going to pay for music again, especially anyone growing up, thats how they will listen to music because thats all they know. 

I don't really have anything positive to ad but it is awesome that all these bands that never bothered to play Ireland are finally coming here. I'm sure other countries or cities off the beaten track are experiencing the same thing. Longer tours means members will get burnt out quicker though.



bulb said:


> The point is, have fun making music, don't expect a career out of it, and if you do make a career out of it then try to diversify your income!



This is where most artists fail miserably though and only have themselves to blame. A good example is the amount of money there is in selling tablature and lessons, I could make a full time career from it, sheethappenings is a good start but it only scratches the surface of the market. If you're a technically minded player who has legions of fans who play guitar who want to learn your music then why not capitalise on that and sell tabs/lessons.


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## zarg (Mar 20, 2018)

do you guys think they're is a difference between NA and EU in terms of how much money a band makes from touring? I have the feeling that at least here in Europe every show I go to is almost sold out. Additionally there's loads of big festivals here, no idea how much they would pay though compared to a club show.


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## wankerness (Mar 20, 2018)

JSanta said:


> As I get older (and that I moved to a smaller city), I don't generally get out to a show during the week. Many of the artists I really enjoy are charging $100+ for tickets and I can't justify the cost. Am I part of the problem? Absolutely.



WTF? Do you only enjoy Madonna and U2 (and maybe the opera)??


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## ArtDecade (Mar 20, 2018)

JSanta said:


> I think part of the problem is that as a society we don't view art the way we used to. I'm sure saturation plays a part, but I honestly don't believe we as a society value art and artists the way we did even 30-40 years ago. Anecdotally, I've had conversations with people about why I still buy CDs (because I love physical media), and they comment that it's just music, you can listen for free on Pandora or YouTube or whatever. And I think that's part of the overall problem - access has to an extent devalued the experience of art in general.



Artists will always create art. It is what they do. That said, the record industry monetized art and sold it to the masses back in the 50s. They blew open the doors off an industry because they were able to cash in on a middle class (especially teens) with disposable income. Sure, they sold records and radios throughout the jazz, swing, and big band era, but never with the numbers they were able to get after WWII. That said, the model broke during the 90s and the floor fell out completely by the early 00s. Again, artists still create art - it is what they do. But, now they are back to being starving artists - a term that has been in use for centuries. There will always be a few that rise to the top, but the time period between the 50s and 90s was an anomaly.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 20, 2018)

wankerness said:


> WTF? Do you only enjoy Madonna and U2 (and maybe the opera)??


lol I can get opera tickets (at least if it's a matinee) for under 30$ a person.


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## TedEH (Mar 20, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Artists will always create art.



^ I think this idea is why I don't buy much into anything that claims "x is killing music". Music isn't going anywhere, I think people still value music on it's own terms the same as they always have- what's dying is the industry. I think some are just unable to separate the two. Right now music as a business is failing, but music as an art form is thriving, IMO. There's a low barrier to entry, lots of people are creating and consuming, there's tons of variety.

I don't personally care if there's no money in music. I care that I can make music (I can), others can make music (they can), I can access music (I can), there is an abundance of music to pick from (there is), there are shows to attend (there are) and I can enjoy that music on my own terms (I mostly can). In those terms, music is doing as well as it ever has. You can easily choose to interpret that as a devaluation of music in some ways- to each their own- but the values I care about in music (and that I think a lot of consumers care about) are doing just fine.

I equally understand that those who value the idea of a career in music won't necessarily share my view.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 20, 2018)

There are more bands in circulation than ever, thus decreasing the marketshare for the modern business model compared to the 70's & 80's, prior to home recording being accessible & affordable.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 20, 2018)

What kind of $ do I have to contribute to get a mod to change the thread title to “All Dorks Report In”?

Edit:



Drew said:


> basically, a whole bunch of guitarists who aren't in famous, successful bands don't know what the exact formula is, in order to become a famous, successful band.



This needs to be the site banner.


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## zeropoint (Mar 20, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Off topic, but it bothers me how much money silicon valley start ups are making off of being middle men. Spotify is just like Uber, Airbnb, etc. They bring nothing to the table, other than coordinating a buyer and a seller. It definitely has a value, but I'm not sure it should be making billionaires out of people, whilst the sellers get virtually nothing.



I know this post is a couple of pages old, but spotify's case is a wee bit better than the others because at least they're doing some hosting / regional replication of the media and server availability scaling to ensure that it's available to people on an instant's notice - we've taken that technology for granted almost entirely, but it's not trivial to do so. It's replaced physical media but it's not magic and it comes with a lot of I.T. circus BS to make it happen to the average yolo kid's standards of "instantaneous". 

They also presumably farm a bunch of data from what people listen to, where they start and stop streams and skip to next songs, what gets repeated, turned up, turned down, and so on, and use it to auto-generate new crappy pop and radio-rock music that'll sell, thus making them a mountain of coin ... but that's another story.


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## Vyn (Mar 20, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> @Flappydoodle Just because an 800 lbs gorilla can shake up an industry doesn't mean it needs shaking up. The Mafia shakes up industries, governments and militaries shake up things, and I don't know that those are needing to be shaken up. These industries aren't being shaken up to help the end user. They're being shaken up to make money. That's 100% it. Obviously they harness the end user, because someone has to drive it, but that's hardly the goal. There are solutions to get artists more money. I would say the biggest one is to not keep negotiating less pay per play in order to make the company more money. Call me a communist or socialist, but I think that when a society puts money above all else, we lose a lot of art, culture, and enjoyment along the way.



I like my industries shaken, not stirred.

Puns and references aside, 100% this.


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## bhakan (Mar 20, 2018)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> There are more bands in circulation than ever, thus decreasing the marketshare for the modern business model compared to the 70's & 80's, prior to home recording being accessible & affordable.


I came in here to say this. There are undoubtedly many factors in making our favorite bands struggle to make a living, but, even though we see Periphery as a massive band, could they even have existed in an industry like the '80s? They definitely serve a very specific niche and I'm not certain whether that niche would even get them to the point of being able to record a pro sounding LP then, let alone make a comfortable living. It seems like in the '70s there was a much sharper divide between bands on major labels and random local bands. We can only speculate which modern bands would have been making a comfortable living and which would of been playing a dive bar in their home town to 3 people because there's a gradient now covering a wide range of success.



TedEH said:


> ^ I think this idea is why I don't buy much into anything that claims "x is killing music". Music isn't going anywhere, I think people still value music on it's own terms the same as they always have- what's dying is the industry. I think some are just unable to separate the two. Right now music as a business is failing, but music as an art form is thriving, IMO. There's a low barrier to entry, lots of people are creating and consuming, there's tons of variety.
> 
> I don't personally care if there's no money in music. I care that I can make music (I can), others can make music (they can), I can access music (I can), there is an abundance of music to pick from (there is), there are shows to attend (there are) and I can enjoy that music on my own terms (I mostly can). In those terms, music is doing as well as it ever has. You can easily choose to interpret that as a devaluation of music in some ways- to each their own- but the values I care about in music (and that I think a lot of consumers care about) are doing just fine.
> 
> I equally understand that those who value the idea of a career in music won't necessarily share my view.


This basically sums up my feelings on the music industry.


All that said, listen to budda and go to shows. There's so much awesome music you can go see for $10.


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## Hollowway (Mar 20, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Artists will always create art. It is what they do. That said, the record industry monetized art and sold it to the masses back in the 50s. They blew open the doors off an industry because they were able to cash in on a middle class (especially teens) with disposable income. Sure, they sold records and radios throughout the jazz, swing, and big band era, but never with the numbers they were able to get after WWII. That said, the model broke during the 90s and the floor fell out completely by the early 00s. Again, artists still create art - it is what they do. But, now they are back to being starving artists - a term that has been in use for centuries. There will always be a few that rise to the top, but the time period between the 50s and 90s was an anomaly.



That's interesting. I never thought about wondering if artists were doing better in other points in history. Is it safe to assume that the 50s-90s WERE anomalous, or is it possible that artists did better in, say, ancient Rome? I don't know, and have done zero research, but it is an interesting question, and makes me wonder why we create, and why we haven't been selected against, if society after society doesn't reward us.


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## Cynicanal (Mar 20, 2018)

For most of history, music wasn't a thing you consumed on its own. It was a thing you _did_ -- either you were participating in a religious ritual (singing a hymn, etc), or you were joining in singing a drinking song, or it was a thing that was a part of a play, and generally, that play was religious and put on with the efforts of the whole community. It wasn't until the baroque period that "music as a thing you listen to that stands on its own" was a thing.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 20, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> For most of history, music wasn't a thing you consumed on its own. It was a thing you _did_ -- either you were participating in a religious ritual (singing a hymn, etc), or you were joining in singing a drinking song, or it was a thing that was a part of a play, and generally, that play was religious and put on with the efforts of the whole community. It wasn't until the baroque period that "music as a thing you listen to that stands on its own" was a thing.


In that 2nd Matrix movie music was used for mass cave sex. Just sayin'.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 20, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> For most of history, music wasn't a thing you consumed on its own. It was a thing you _did_ -- either you were participating in a religious ritual (singing a hymn, etc), or you were joining in singing a drinking song, or it was a thing that was a part of a play, and generally, that play was religious and put on with the efforts of the whole community. It wasn't until the baroque period that "music as a thing you listen to that stands on its own" was a thing.


In that 2nd Matrix movie, music was used for mass cave sex. Just sayin'.


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## Soya (Mar 20, 2018)

But that was the future?


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## budda (Mar 20, 2018)

This thread gives me high hopes for the pre-orders people post


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## Hollowway (Mar 20, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> What kind of $ do I have to contribute to get a mod to change the thread title to “All Dorks Report In”?



For a fee, I will act as the go-between, and coordinate your communication with the mods here.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 20, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> For a fee, I will act as the go-between, and coordinate your communication with the mods here.



I don’t have any Vaders.


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## ramses (Mar 20, 2018)

It would be good for all of you to read about Johann Sebastian Bach.

When was Bach—and his family of >10 children—prosperous? When he had a "mecenas" (patron). Allow me to remind you that Bach is also known as the fucking father of contemporary music.

Bach eventually died poor, blind, and half of his children did not reach adulthood. That's the life of a musician.

Are you as good as fucking Bach?????

As someone else just mentioned in this thread, the couple of decades in the 20th century when some musicians could become rich selling music was indeed a freak anomaly. As Bulb mentioned, do it as a passion project and diversify if you intend to make any money.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 21, 2018)

Actually, Sebastian Bach is still alive.


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## Hollowway (Mar 21, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Actually, Sebastian Bach is still alive.



Yeah, @ramses, AND he's not blind, because he saw that hot Vietnamese girl and married her. Sounds like he's doing pretttty well, actually. A far cry from poor and blind! I think you have a little research on Mr. Bach to do, ramses! Don't try to come in here and act like we don't know our music history!


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 21, 2018)

This Sebastian Bach?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 21, 2018)

ramses said:


> It would be good for all of you to read about Johann Sebastian Bach.
> 
> When was Bach—and his family of >10 children—prosperous? When he had a "mecenas" (patron). Allow me to remind you that Bach is also known as the fucking father of contemporary music.
> 
> ...


Did Mozart also die poor and from illness?


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## Hollowway (Mar 21, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Did Mozart also die poor and from illness?



Not familiar with him. Did he open for Skid Row?


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## ramses (Mar 21, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Did Mozart also die poor and from illness?



Hopefully not wearing a t-shirt like that one!


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 21, 2018)

Mozart’s shirts were far more vulgar.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 21, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Not familiar with him. Did he open for Skid Row?


No that was Junkyard, or Sea Hags, or Four Horsemen, I think.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 21, 2018)

Avedas said:


> If a single company can offer a service and completely disrupt an entire industry, there was probably something about that industry that needed fundamental changes in the first place. It's no surprise if a consumer-unfriendly industry falls on its face when a company shows up and successfully offers a very consumer-friendly service.



Exactly this.

The music industry was in a VERY bad way from piracy. The early 2000's were an absolute free-for-all. Maybe some people here remember Metallic vs Napster.



Zalbu said:


> Spotify is barely a step above pirating, yes, but remember that most of the money goes to the labels. Very little of the money that streaming generates actually goes to the artists unless they're independent.



Well, it's legal. And again, it isn't the consumers *job* to fund the artist.

I'm aware that most Spotify money doesn't go to the artist. But I see that I'm paying for a service - like a library where I can access a big resource anywhere, anytime. 

I still go to concert when they come around, and I'll buy merchandise if it's something decent that I actually feel like owning.



Rawkmann said:


> Still junk quality compared to physical audio CDs. And I do have a paid Spotify account. It's convenient sure but I can't pretend the audio quality is anything to write home about.



Perhaps it's been so long since I listened to a CD that I can't tell any more, but really the high quality streams sounds fine to me - with an Apogee DUET, DT770 pros or ADAM audio monitors. Not super audiophile gear, but not apple headphones either.



sakeido said:


> Yes, it is crazy, crazy inconvenient to buy a download of an album from a place like Bandcamp. Extremely inconvenient. I have to go to the library and download it to a USB stick, because for some reason I can't download things on my home computer, laptop or the phone that is in my pocket at all times



Bandcamp? It's a completely different market.

And, let's be clear, bandcamp is shit. Horrible website. Ugly. Not user friendly. Since this thread is about Misha, does bandcamp have the latest Periphery album? Nope. The actual Periphery II album was the 4th result for "Periphery" behind some weird soundscape stuff and a cover. I couldn't find PIII anywhere on the first page, so I assume they don't even have it, or their search feature is so dismal that it's un-findable anyway.



> That much is extremely clear



Sarcasm aside, why is it my job or responsibility?

I subscribe to services I like, and I buy products I enjoy. I don't see the need to raise any of that to the level of "activism".



> The music industry did not actually need "saving" per so. Vinyl probably does more to shore up the music business than Spotify does -- did you actually read any of those articles?
> 
> I've got a big stack of vinyls and CDs at home that proves I'm not at all a freeloader. The way I see it, Spotify is actually the freeloading leech here... they provide basically nothing and pay next to nothing, but make billions.



They provide a service and convenience.[/QUOTE]



> You completely and entirely missed the point. AirBnb is actually at fault, here. That's why it is usually directly named in all of these cases (Banff, Canmore, San Francisco, Detroit, New York, parts of London, Vancouver......)



They are be named in cases mostly because people want to extract money from them.

AirBnb is simply a platform, providing a centralised place for people to do things they were already doing. They have legitimised it, made it safer for both sides, and even made it more tolerant (since many people refused to privately rent houses to gays, people with foreign names etc). You think that closing AirBnb would simply revert the situation? It will never go back.

The blame doesn't even really falls with landlords, since of course they want to maximise their income. It really lies with governments for bad city planning, for not allowing/encouraging more house building, and for allowing these housing bubbles to inflate.



> Those taxi medallions were valuable assets to the drivers themselves, part of their retirement plans in some cases, and driving a cab was one of the only jobs open to new immigrants. It was a common way for new families to get a start in a new country... it's not gone yet, but it's going. 235,000 jobs on the block so a couple nerds (who are, by all accounts, complete assholes) can make a billion dollars



Times have changed. Horse and cart drivers also went out of business. I wouldn't stick with inferior services because I feel sorry for them.

With a GPS, google reviews and facebook, you don't need special training to navigate a city or take customers to a good sushi restaurant. For customers, being forced to go with only one company (aka government-endorsed monopoly), with outrageously high prices, generally crappy standards, and very little accountability, was horrible. Not to mention having to stand in the street and find a taxi, or call them up and make a booking. I can't see any way that that was better than Uber.



> You don't see anything problematic with anything you just said here? It is a good thing they can keep tabs on all of your movements? You don't trust your wife, and need to be able to find out exactly where she's going? You want more surveillance of yourself and the people close to you, not less? The fuck?



Errr.. Uber uses GPS to track the journey. It's a safety feature, so that you know where you are, where you're going. And when my wife gets in an Uber late after work, she shares the ride status with me so I can check that she is en route and he isn't driving her off into the mountains or something. It also shows the drivers name, his face, how many rides he has given before etc. That's a hell of a lot less creepy than having to wave down a car from the street, get in with a stranger etc. That's not "surveillance" by any stretch of the imagination. 



> Taxi and truck drivers all gone - that's over 3.5 million jobs, erased. Nothing wrong with that, eh?



Were you this concerned about every single development in history?

I mean, industrialisation killed farming. Should we all go back to tending the fields?

Times change, and some jobs simply become non-viable.



Hollowway said:


> @Flappydoodle Just because an 800 lbs gorilla can shake up an industry doesn't mean it needs shaking up. The Mafia shakes up industries, governments and militaries shake up things, and I don't know that those are needing to be shaken up. These industries aren't being shaken up to help the end user. They're being shaken up to make money. That's 100% it. Obviously they harness the end user, because someone has to drive it, but that's hardly the goal. There are solutions to get artists more money. I would say the biggest one is to not keep negotiating less pay per play in order to make the company more money. Call me a communist or socialist, but I think that when a society puts money above all else, we lose a lot of art, culture, and enjoyment along the way.



Fair points. I'm not saying that shaking up is inherently good. My comment was in response to a comment saying that those companies have done nothing. The industries WERE shaken up, *because* they were so flawed. Staying on peoples couches, or getting random taxis from the street, was a risky, often highly-discriminatory and sexist affair. Same with the music industry. Piracy would have absolutely killed it unless something cheap and convenient came along.

My personal feeling is that people have always created art and acts of expression, of all forms, and they always will - whether cave paintings, pottery, sculptures etc. But the way of artists supporting themselves will have to change. IMO, the period from roughly 1950 to 2000 was a 50 year anomalous golden-age, rather than "the way things always were". 

I found this online: "Beethoven made his mature living through a combination of direct sales of his music, occasional lucrative commissions, and a reliance on the patronage of the aristocracy." Sounds familiar. And he died pretty much penniless.

I suppose Hollywood actors may go the same way, once CGI can make convincing-looking people. Why will they pay an actor $50M for a movie? They don't even have to be in the likeness of an actual person. We will have CGI "celebrities" with their own manufactured personalities. All run by corporations for profit of course, but it's the way things are headed.


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## iamaom (Mar 21, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> With a GPS, google reviews and facebook, you don't need special training to navigate a city or take customers to a good sushi restaurant. For customers, being forced to go with only one company (aka government-endorsed monopoly), with outrageously high prices, generally crappy standards, and very little accountability, was horrible. Not to mention having to stand in the street and find a taxi, or call them up and make a booking. I can't see any way that that was better than Uber.
> 
> Errr.. Uber uses GPS to track the journey. It's a safety feature, so that you know where you are, where you're going. And when my wife gets in an Uber late after work, she shares the ride status with me so I can check that she is en route and he isn't driving her off into the mountains or something. It also shows the drivers name, his face, how many rides he has given before etc. That's a hell of a lot less creepy than having to wave down a car from the street, get in with a stranger etc.



The problem I have with Uber is that is was largely able to skirt around unions and regulations, many demanded by the people taking taxis to ensure their safety. Uber avoids that by putting those costs directly on the driver. The company itself does very little, they make an app, they make their not-employees and customers do all the leg and money work, and they skim profit off the top. Taxis are more expensive because they require certifications, vehicle insurance, driver insurance, vehicle maintenance, etc. Many of these were in direct response to unsafe private companies that people wanted! The private market is constantly cutting corners to make ever increasing profit, people get fed up and demand the government do something, and then they do. And then people complain, a private company like Uber comes along and the cycle continues.

As for safety, anyone can sign up for Uber, I don't understand why some random person who downloaded an app and uploaded an unverified picture is somehow safer for your wife to be with than a registered taxi driver. Most taxis have a number you can call, and when the vehicle shows up it's clearly marked a taxi. I think you have some weird irrational fear of taxi services.

There's also no reason citizens couldn't have voted for better taxi services with modern upgrades, but that costs money, and for some reason the average american would rather spend $2 on a private company and "save" money than spend $1 on a public services funded by taxes. The solution to the government not doing its job is to vote and make it do it's job, not rely on private companies whose sole goal is to make as much money as possible.



Flappydoodle said:


> That's not "surveillance" by any stretch of the imagination.


You bet your ass that Uber is data mining you and selling to companies, it's common practice nowadays. And if they ever got a bribe or subpoena from the NSA they'd sing like a canary with your travel information.


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## JSanta (Mar 21, 2018)

wankerness said:


> WTF? Do you only enjoy Madonna and U2 (and maybe the opera)??



The Joe Bonamassa show coming up is $100 a ticket. Not exactly a super star.

I'm not a big metal guy. I'm sure the local bands are smaller groups that come through aren't expensive, but I'm not into it anymore.


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## Zalbu (Mar 21, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Well, it's legal. And again, it isn't the consumers *job* to fund the artist.
> 
> I'm aware that most Spotify money doesn't go to the artist. But I see that I'm paying for a service - like a library where I can access a big resource anywhere, anytime.
> 
> I still go to concert when they come around, and I'll buy merchandise if it's something decent that I actually feel like owning.


And? Who claimed it's our job to support the artists? The entire point of services like Patreon is that you choose to support the artists with however much you want to support them with, whether that's 2 bucks or 500 bucks a month, and you can choose not to if you don't want to and keep buying the albums and go to shows and buy merch.

Going to shows is also not sufficient for a lot of us who don't live in the US, I can probably count on both hands the amount of times Periphery have been here in Sweden since they were founded, and I don't blame them for it. It's a lot of work and money spent for little reward to lug all your gear and crew and god knows what over the pond. And then you have to make sure that your schedule is free when they do make it over here.

That leaves merch as the last option, Periphery is pretty much the only band I've bought merch from because I'm a broke student and the guys deserve it, but there comes a point where you really don't want more physical stuff laying around at your place. If I have the choice between just sending them 20 bucks directly instead of buying more merch then I'd pick the former 9 times out of 10 and buy merch when it's something I actually want and not just to support the band financially.

And on a sidenote, how much of the money from merch sold actually goes to the artists when you factor in all the different fees, shipping and the label and store taking their cut (if they even do it at all, I don't really know how these things work) and all that jazz?


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 21, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Periphery is pretty much the only band I've bought merch from because I'm a broke student and the guys deserve it



If only other bands could deserve to sell merch, too.

It’s fun imagining that Periphery only stopped making a profit on touring after having to cart Invectives around to fail to assimilate into their automated, MIDI-switching, Axe FX-based show:

_“Premier Guitar here for another Rig Rundown. Now, right away, I’m seeing something Periphery fans aren’t really used to seeing; and that’s full stacks of good, old-fashioned amps. They seem to be taking up a lot of the stage.”

“That’s right - This one isn’t on, and I also have a backup. We were supposed to have some at the merch table, but uh, right now there are issues.”_


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## Zalbu (Mar 21, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> If only other bands could deserve to sell merch, too.
> 
> It’s fun imagining that Periphery only stopped making a profit on touring after having to cart Invectives around to fail to assimilate into their automated, MIDI-switching, Axe FX-based show:
> 
> ...



Okay, thanks for your valuable input to the discussion


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 21, 2018)

I should be thanking you.


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## Andromalia (Mar 21, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Well, that's metal. Niche market.



Maiden is still filling stadiums here, and Hellfest is fast becoming the second Wacken. (Except their toilets are horrible and getting a beer is a hassle)


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## jephjacques (Mar 21, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> If only other bands could deserve to sell merch, too.
> 
> It’s fun imagining that Periphery only stopped making a profit on touring after having to cart Invectives around to fail to assimilate into their automated, MIDI-switching, Axe FX-based show:
> 
> ...



A+ Periphery fanfic


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## ExileMetal (Mar 21, 2018)

It's with a fair amount of cognitive dissonance (as I'm working on an album right now) that as far as making money goes, it would seem the album model is an antiquated one that one works for people who are already your huge fans, but completely falls over when new or casual fans try to consume your music.

Take myself and Polyphia. I heard Finale because someone recommended that I listened to the song. I really enjoyed it, so I bought the album... only to not really be captivated by most of its content, leading me to never buy anything Polyphia since. Now, if the only way for me as a consumer was to purchase their curated, specific singles, I might still be buying Polyphia.

Part of the problem to me is just that creating an album is a really fun, and important thing for an artist. If you have this musical idea that's bigger than a song, you need a format that supports it. It's just a big ask for customers who aren't familiar with you to take so much time to listen to your album and embrace your (to them) long winded idea, when really they're just looking for their jam for the next few days. It's much easier and lighter for them to commit to listening to one song and t hen asking them for a purchase as a result.

This isn't based on any data by the way, it's just something I've noticed as a musician who has made several albums, and I've thought for a long time that the model of production was antiquated. I buy a lot of albums and don't use Spotify because I know what other musicians are going through, but that doesn't let me ignore the many songs I've purchased but rarely if ever listen to.


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## Randy (Mar 21, 2018)

Theory: Andrew Lloyd Webber is Alex Bois


----------



## couverdure (Mar 21, 2018)

ExileMetal said:


> It's with a fair amount of cognitive dissonance (as I'm working on an album right now) that as far as making money goes, it would seem the album model is an antiquated one that one works for people who are already your huge fans, but completely falls over when new or casual fans try to consume your music.
> 
> Take myself and Polyphia. I heard Finale because someone recommended that I listened to the song. I really enjoyed it, so I bought the album... only to not really be captivated by most of its content, leading me to never buy anything Polyphia since. Now, if the only way for me as a consumer was to purchase their curated, specific singles, I might still be buying Polyphia.
> 
> ...


Jon from ARTV recently posted a video answering his viewers' opinions about why albums are becoming less of a thing because people only want to hear the singles. It's worth the quick watch.


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## Flappydoodle (Mar 21, 2018)

iamaom said:


> The problem I have with Uber is that is was largely able to skirt around unions and regulations, many demanded by the people taking taxis to ensure their safety. Uber avoids that by putting those costs directly on the driver. The company itself does very little, they make an app, they make their not-employees and customers do all the leg and money work, and they skim profit off the top. Taxis are more expensive because they require certifications, vehicle insurance, driver insurance, vehicle maintenance, etc. Many of these were in direct response to unsafe private companies that people wanted! The private market is constantly cutting corners to make ever increasing profit, people get fed up and demand the government do something, and then they do. And then people complain, a private company like Uber comes along and the cycle continues.



All fair points. I'm not saying Uber was perfect anywhere. But their incredible popularity, and millions of people choosing them over regular taxis, does show that there was demand for the service.



> As for safety, anyone can sign up for Uber, I don't understand why some random person who downloaded an app and uploaded an unverified picture is somehow safer for your wife to be with than a registered taxi driver. Most taxis have a number you can call, and when the vehicle shows up it's clearly marked a taxi. I think you have some weird irrational fear of taxi services.



Not weird and irrational. But Uber shows you the driver name, car registration and model - so at least you know what to expect. In the UK at least we had a major problem with fake taxis outside bars at emptying time.



> There's also no reason citizens couldn't have voted for better taxi services with modern upgrades, but that costs money, and for some reason the average american would rather spend $2 on a private company and "save" money than spend $1 on a public services funded by taxes. The solution to the government not doing its job is to vote and make it do it's job, not rely on private companies whose sole goal is to make as much money as possible.



I'm not convinced that the whole idea works - because no politicians were elected on promises of improving taxis, and politicians all lie and don't fulfil those promises anyway. Government doesn't provide taxi services AFAIK, and whether they should or not is a whole other argument.



> You bet your ass that Uber is data mining you and selling to companies, it's common practice nowadays. And if they ever got a bribe or subpoena from the NSA they'd sing like a canary with your travel information.



Yeah, that's true.

Anyway, I think I'm going to bow out of de-railing this thread totally  Nice talking with you.


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## Avedas (Mar 21, 2018)

iamaom said:


> There's also no reason citizens couldn't have voted for better taxi services with modern upgrades, but that costs money, and for some reason the average american would rather spend $2 on a private company and "save" money than spend $1 on a public services funded by taxes. The solution to the government not doing its job is to vote and make it do it's job, not rely on private companies whose sole goal is to make as much money as possible.



I don't know where you're from but nowhere I've lived have I ever been able to vote on single issues as specific as taxi services


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 21, 2018)

couverdure said:


> You know it's a sad state of affairs when a different set of people give more likes to this post than the post from the person this topic is referring to.


Maybe it's just because I made a humorous post here on the forum and the folks here enjoy humor?... 



LordGloom said:


> This is great, simple advice that seems to be getting lost in this thread (which I have enjoyed reading quite a bit). Please re-post this after every couple pages of arguing.


Hold my beer.



bulb said:


> The point is, have fun making music, don't expect a career out of it, and if you do make a career out of it then try to diversify your income!


The point is, have fun making music, don't expect a career out of it, and if you do make a career out of it then try to diversify your income!



Hollowway said:


> Call me a communist or socialist, but I think that when a society puts money above all else, we lose a lot of art, culture, and enjoyment along the way.


^ This right here.



Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> _“Premier Guitar here for another Rig Rundown. Now, right away, I’m seeing something Periphery fans aren’t really used to seeing; and that’s full stacks of good, old-fashioned amps. They seem to be taking up a lot of the stage.”
> 
> “That’s right - This one isn’t on, and I also have a backup. We were supposed to have some at the merch table, but uh, right now there are issues.”_


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## Zalbu (Mar 21, 2018)

couverdure said:


> You know it's a sad state of affairs when a different set of people give more likes to this post than the post from the person this topic is referring to.


Meh, it's forums, shitposting and memes trumps actual discussion.


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## Uncreative123 (Mar 21, 2018)

Wow, some really optimistic numbers here. I didn't want to post because of Misha's comment about "everyone having to be right" ..because this is going to fall right in line with that. However I thought it might be useful to throw some solid, actual numbers out while not hiding behind some 'nameless' supposed 'national touring band' façade.

I toured with Cattle Decapitation in 2010 (and 2011 or 12?); The 2010 tour was with Job for a Cowboy (Headline), Whitechapel, (Cattle) and Revocation- in that order. This was peak JFAC- Ruination era. Guarantees for that tour (from memory) looked roughly like this:
JFAC- $11-1200
WC- $700
CD- $150
Revo-$100

What is most interesting about these guarantees is that they remained the same even when we ran through New England Metal and HXC fest and California Metalfest. Cattle headlined the second stage for California metalfest and still only had a $150 guarantee because the tour package was bought- not negotiated separately. Same for NEMHC. Sad. 
Oddly enough- Periphery was on that same New England Metal & HXC fest and since they played pretty early in the afternoon (This was P1 era keep in mind) and Dave and I were big fans since Casey, I was able to catch about half the set. (Side note, if you were never able to see Periphery prior to PII you don't know how far Spencer has come as a vocalist. The whole band has come a long way and it's been very cool to watch it/them grow. I personally consider them to be VERY successful/important and it's a shame they aren't better compensated then they are.)
However, CD had the best merch night of the whole tour at California Metalfest and made just over $1,000 in merch. So you'll excuse me if I say a local band claiming to do over $1k in merch as part of opening for a national act is complete and utter horseshit.
Cattle's merch has always done well because of the designs and variety of designs. Many people would buy merch who had never heard the band or didn't care- they just liked the designs. I would say an average night for merch was between $350-700. JFAC could do around $700-1k. WC was easily hitting $700.

The rest of the %'s boil down to how you negotiated prior contracts. I would say standard for touring agencies is 10-15% of your guarantee (Maybe Misha can confirm?) Managers can take 10%. And I supposed depending on the label they can take 0-10/15%. Again, depending on the deal you have, the label can take a % of merch sales as can the venue (Trust and believe, every band is fudging numbers when venues do this; rightfully so).
Some respectable labels like MetalBlade don't (or at last check weren't) take a cut of tours or merch. Strictly album sales/royalties. You can imagine how hard (or impossible) it is to sustain on that kind of platform in 2018, so I would not be surprised to see if that has changed for newer bands.( I've talked to Brian Slagel a couple of times and that guy is 100% down for all the bands on his label. He will sign a band just because he likes the music, not because he thinks they can make him money. Solid dude.)

Some bands get tour support or have the option to forego tour support in lieu of better advances. If you have a good industry attorney representing you, you can do quite well. 
I have friends that are on Artery Recordings now and they got $30k for their first album (with them). For a tech metal band, that is nuts. There was more involved in that deal which was really good, but it's one of the best offerings I've heard recently and makes me think there is hope. I use to work at Prosthetic records (internship) and bands didn't get shit. I have nothing bad to say about Prosthetic, but a lot of the deals were $5k, zero tour support, zero anything else. Most of the bands that were there when I was have left- (AAL, Gojira, Holy Grail, All That Remains- I think?)


Also a side note- the amount of spotify monthly listeners a band has is in no way even close to indicative of the amount of people who come out on a tour. That is a ridiculous assumption.
(Side note side note- Spotify & Pandora royalties are not near as bad as they've been made out to be in the past, assuming you've retained all the rights to your music.)

Anyway that's enough bullshit from me for now.


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## Randy (Mar 21, 2018)

Uncreative123 said:


> Stuff



Since a couple of the pot shots seem to be leveraged specifically at my post, I'll address them.

The $45,000, $25,000, $18,000 were from Thomas Rhett, David Lee Roth and Sebastian Bach all playing the same venue in Albany that holds 1,000 people. The DLR and SB numbers are 10 years old, the Thomas Rhett number is about 3 years old. I wasn't trying to be cryptic in some kind of an effort to be dishonest, I think it's low class airing everyone's business that way but if we're talking numbers, fine.

And yes I sold $1,000 in merchandise on bigger opening gigs. You can get that number from just 25 T-shirts at $20 and 33 CDs at $15 a piece (estimate obviously, because that was a long time ago); that's not exactly hilariously unrealistic numbers for an audience of 800 to 1000 people, especially if the headliner lets you setup right next to them and you wait there till the end of the show.

I mean, whatever. The scene's different now and I guess extreme metal shows pull a lot less people. I still think it's disingenuous to do the whole "there's no money in music" thing totally one-sides for a forum with a lot of people who don't have firsthand knowledge and are considering a future in music.


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## wankerness (Mar 21, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> And on a sidenote, how much of the money from merch sold actually goes to the artists when you factor in all the different fees, shipping and the label and store taking their cut (if they even do it at all, I don't really know how these things work) and all that jazz?



No idea, I usually just buy it at shows so I know it's all going straight there. Especially those bands that don't even have a "merch person."


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## wankerness (Mar 21, 2018)

Randy said:


> Since a couple of the pot shots seem to be leveraged specifically at my post, I'll address them.
> 
> The $45,000, $25,000, $18,000 were from Thomas Rhett, David Lee Roth and Sebastian Bach all playing the same venue in Albany that holds 1,000 people. The DLR and SB numbers are 10 years old, the Thomas Rhett number is about 3 years old. I wasn't trying to be cryptic in some kind of an effort to be dishonest, I think it's low class airing everyone's business that way but if we're talking numbers, fine.
> 
> ...



Man...other genres. I haven't seen many shows with more than ~200 people in a long time apart from huge names (Pat Metheny, Joanna Newsom, Tori Amos, Opeth), and MANY shows I see have more like 25-50. 1000 people a show on average is nuts! I guess nostalgia really sells compared to say, jazz and singer-songwriter. Even ones on national labels.


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## LordGloom (Mar 21, 2018)

I'm in charge of concert merchandise sales at an NHL arena, and I thought I'd throw out some numbers for those interested. I know no one cares, but here you go!

The normal artist/venue split for merch is usually somewhere between 70/30 and 80/20, depending on what the tour negotiated with the building. Media sales (CDs/DVDs) are always a 90/10 split, but there are obviously little sales there at this point. I also occasionally help out out some of the smaller venues and clubs around the cities, and the split is around the same. It's not uncommon for a major act to sell $200k to $300k in merch during one night, and that's with attendances around 16k. Stadium shows can easily hit a million. While a 20% venue cut for $200k is a nice chunk of change, with that money I have to pay a staff of around 40 people (commission based) and provide tables/credit card machines/etc. I understand the venue taking a cut for this reason, but I don't agree with the venue taking the same split (or any at all) when the band is providing all the equipment and selling it themselves.

I've been doing this for over 7 years, and I still get surprised by the numbers bands do in merch sales. People might not want to pay for music anymore, but they have no issue with paying $40 for a shirt. Yes, most of our biggest nights were pop acts, but the most I've done in one night was actually a metal band (not Metallica).


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## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 21, 2018)

LordGloom said:


> I'm in charge of concert merchandise sales at an NHL arena, and I thought I'd throw out some numbers for those interested. *I know no one cares*, but here you go!



Nah, man. It's actually pretty cool to hear from the guys with actual numbers and examples.
For those of us that don't play shows or anything like that, it's really interesting to get a glimpse into how _exactly_ these things work.


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## wat (Mar 21, 2018)

freedom-hating communists itt


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## ArtDecade (Mar 21, 2018)

Whenever I see Phish or Widespread Panic, there are thousands of people there. Jam more.


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## Zalbu (Mar 21, 2018)

Uncreative123 said:


> Also a side note- the amount of spotify monthly listeners a band has is in no way even close to indicative of the amount of people who come out on a tour. That is a ridiculous assumption.


I only cited the Spotify monthly listeners to use as a ballpark estimate for the potential amount of supporters they could get for a Patreon kind of support model, because Periphery is a lot bigger than Protest is at this point and Periphery have a pretty diehard fanbase that would most likely be down for a Patreon type of support model.

I don't know exactly how many subscribers Protest had on their Bandcamp but it was somewhere between 5 000 and 10 000 subscribers, at $12 and $25 bucks a month that's pretty impressive for a band like Protest, even at the most conservative estimation that's $60 000 per month Hold on, I'm stupid, it was $12 or $25 for a year, not month.

But it's also possible that since they were more or less the first band to try the subscription model on a big scale that a lot of success came from the novelty of it.


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## Avedas (Mar 21, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> But it's also possible that since they were more or less the first band to try the subscription model on a big scale that a lot of success came from the novelty of it.


I think they were able to pull off the Patreon model because crowdfunding Volition was so successful. And crowdfunding an album had been done on a pretty huge scale by Radiohead before that.


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## TedEH (Mar 22, 2018)

I have trouble seeing subscriptions to bands taking off for many people. Mostly because I can't see myself paying monthly amounts to support a band I'm not playing in. And I absolutely can't see myself, or many other people, being willing to shell out multiple monthly fees to support several bands (especially while Spotify is still a thing). One or two bands try it and it works out as a novelty thing - sure, maybe. But I don't know how that would be sustainable for any significant number of bands.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 22, 2018)

This remains the most concise and insightful post in the thread; and anyone who hasn’t “liked” it should do so:



Emperor Guillotine said:


> Periphery IV: This Time It’s Patreon


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 22, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> But it's also possible that since they were more or less the first band to try the subscription model on a big scale that a lot of success came from the novelty of it.



PTH proved they could deliver a product with their indiegogo for Volition so me and many other fans were happy to throw money at them again, like you said the novelty and newness paid a large part too. There are very few bands I'd do that for though. I doubt I'll use kickstarter or indiegogo again since I've had such a bad experience with it, from one artist refusing to acknowledge my perk and trying to tell me my Guitar Pro files had been shipped  to bands releasing boring albums full of B side tracks that would be turned away by most labels.


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## MFB (Mar 22, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Not weird and irrational. But Uber shows you the driver name, car registration and model - so at least you know what to expect. In the UK at least we had a major problem with fake taxis outside bars at emptying time.



True that, I can't count the number of FakeTaxi videos I've seen where poor, female bar-goers have been forced to pay these 'cabbies' with ..._sexual favors_


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## ExileMetal (Mar 22, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I have trouble seeing subscriptions to bands taking off for many people. Mostly because I can't see myself paying monthly amounts to support a band I'm not playing in. And I absolutely can't see myself, or many other people, being willing to shell out multiple monthly fees to support several bands (especially while Spotify is still a thing). One or two bands try it and it works out as a novelty thing - sure, maybe. But I don't know how that would be sustainable for any significant number of bands.



Have you heard of Twitch? Many, many people are happy to pay other people to play games, in a time specific way, for their enjoyment. Music actually feels like an even better fit for this model, especially if they streamed live playing as part of what's included. That's not all though, because at that point you also gain a community feel which is currently entirely absent from music barring forums like this one and things like Facebook groups. I don't feel connected to other fans at all.


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## Zalbu (Mar 22, 2018)

ExileMetal said:


> Have you heard of Twitch? Many, many people are happy to pay other people to play games, in a time specific way, for their enjoyment. Music actually feels like an even better fit for this model, especially if they streamed live playing as part of what's included. That's not all though, because at that point you also gain a community feel which is currently entirely absent from music barring forums like this one and things like Facebook groups. I don't feel connected to other fans at all.


Exactly, the current top streamer on Twitch, Ninja, earns $500 000 per _*month*_ just from playing video games all day. It creates a community that you won't get otherwise.


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## ExileMetal (Mar 22, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Exactly, the current top streamer on Twitch, Ninja, earns $500 000 per _*month*_ just from playing video games all day. It creates a community that you won't get otherwise.



Yeah, this. There are problems though for streamers, such as an intense need to commit to really rigorous schedules otherwise when monthly re-ups roll around you lose supporters and income. Some streamers use their past broadcast videos to encourage subscriptions by locking them unless you are currently subscribed... and that really seems like a no brainer to me for having availability to something like album streams. You'd need to just solve the always on constraint so people don't feel limited by having internet access... hmm, maybe I should start programming this?


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## ArtDecade (Mar 22, 2018)

Maybe Misha should play more video games.


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## TedEH (Mar 22, 2018)

But that's not what the subscription model so far has been though.

Paying monthly to watch a constant stream of content, I understand that.
But that's not how music generally gets made. I mean, even lots of what I'd call very active bands don't put out new content on a monthly basis. Are they going to stream their same songs over and over again every day? Are they going to stream their writing process? Does every day have to now include a live performance of a song? Why not just actually go to twitch to do those things? If you take your average band made of average people with day jobs, who put out maybe an album a year, what value do you get out of paying them monthly?

What you're suggesting isn't so much a subscription service for music, you're basically just saying "go be a twitch streamer".

Edit:
Which isn't a bad idea, per se. It's just not a "subscription for the music". It would be a subscription to.... another twitch streamer. Viable or not for musician type personalities who feel like going the rout of becoming an internet personality, it's not a solution to the problems with the music business, IMO.


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## lurè (Mar 22, 2018)

Imagine being a Patreon subscriber for Tool


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 22, 2018)

lurè said:


> Imagine being a Patreon subscriber for Tool


That would be a lot of wine content I think.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 22, 2018)

The906 said:


> That would be a lot of wine content I think.


I laughed at that harder than I probably should have.


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## SDMFVan (Mar 22, 2018)

I'm not sure how much money the band makes from it, but Matt Heafy has started streaming all of Trivium's soundchecks and shows on his Twitch channel. That seems like a smart idea to me if he's found a way to monetize it. I know a lot of the jam bands (Dead & Company, Gov't Mule etc) use a services called Nugs.tv to broadcast all of their shows. You pay something like $25-$30 and get to watch a live, HD, multi camera broadcast of all their shows. For guys like me that have families and can't get to as many shows, it's a godsend.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 22, 2018)

SDMFVan said:


> I know a lot of the jam bands (Dead & Company, Gov't Mule etc) use a services called Nugs.tv to broadcast all of their shows. You pay something like $25-$30 and get to watch a live, HD, multi camera broadcast of all their shows. For guys like me that have families and can't get to as many shows, it's a godsend.



Yup. I subscribe to Phish and Dopapod via their sites. You can access to their entire touring history - new and old. I don't think that would work as well in metal though because jamming isn't really a part of their shows. I would get pretty bored listening to Megadeth's complete 2016 run, because most shows would sound the same.


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## ExileMetal (Mar 22, 2018)

TedEH said:


> But that's not what the subscription model so far has been though.
> 
> Paying monthly to watch a constant stream of content, I understand that.
> But that's not how music generally gets made. I mean, even lots of what I'd call very active bands don't put out new content on a monthly basis. Are they going to stream their same songs over and over again every day? Are they going to stream their writing process? Does every day have to now include a live performance of a song? Why not just actually go to twitch to do those things? If you take your average band made of average people with day jobs, who put out maybe an album a year, what value do you get out of paying them monthly?
> ...



This isn’t really what I meant with my suggestion. You’ve correctly identified that the way musicians produce music doesn’t match the way a subscription would work. I’m suggesting artists change their approach such that a subscription WOULD work. I mentioned earlier that albums are a fun concept for a musician, but in many cases don’t match how listeners consume content in 2018. Maybe going away for two years to write an album totally isn’t a viable way to make money. Maybe releasing a new song every few weeks is? The point is, many markets (games are a huge example of this) are moving away from monolithic productions that take years and instead go deep on something that is commonly and consistently updated as a service.


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## TedEH (Mar 22, 2018)

ExileMetal said:


> The point is, many markets (games are a huge example of this) are moving away from monolithic productions that take years and instead go deep on something that is commonly and consistently updated as a service.


Agreed with your post for the most part, but as someone who works in games, I'm not sure that's a great example. Games take a HUUUUGE amount of time to make. Much more than I think people realize. Even episodic content and DLC and "games as service" stuff is usually started on years before anyone knows they existed. There's a massive up front investment (time and money both) on that kind of thing. On the surface they look like a constant stream of stuff just getting pumped out, but the production side of it doesn't really work that way.

A comparable model for music would have to be something more like what you described -> having a song a week, or frequent streamed jams or something.
Or, to get something that's similar to the gaming model, you could have a subscription to a label, and get a new album/release every month/week/etc from that label. Wouldn't be surprised if that's a thing already. Alternatively, you could bank all the work upfront, record a whole collection of EPs and other content, then charge a subscription for scheduled releases. The downside is that having to do the work upfront is a huge investment, and you can't have the feedback from each release inform the progress on the next as easily.

Edit: But again, I wouldn't subscribe to a single band in any of those models. Maybe lots of people would, but I'm not those people.


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## budda (Mar 22, 2018)

ExileMetal said:


> Maybe releasing a new song every few weeks is?



While I don't disagree with your view on how people consume music now (playlists, singles etc over albums), I don't think this suggestion would work at all. It usually takes months to write a record, and then things get changed even more once in the studio. If pretty much any decent band were to put out new songs every few weeks, those songs would likely be very weak. At best there would be the odd new idea, at most it would be the same general song repeated in different keys (granted, some bands already do this).

TL/DR - a song every few weeks would be incredibly difficult to pull off, assuming said band wanted the song to be of studio album quality. Unfortunately I don't have a better suggestion.

That said, people are still buying vinyl in 2018 and sitting down to listen to records.


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## Avedas (Mar 22, 2018)

budda said:


> While I don't disagree with your view on how people consume music now (playlists, singles etc over albums), I don't think this suggestion would work at all. It usually takes months to write a record, and then things get changed even more once in the studio. If pretty much any decent band were to put out new songs every few weeks, those songs would likely be very weak. At best there would be the odd new idea, at most it would be the same general song repeated in different keys (granted, some bands already do this).
> 
> TL/DR - a song every few weeks would be incredibly difficult to pull off, assuming said band wanted the song to be of studio album quality. Unfortunately I don't have a better suggestion.
> 
> That said, people are still buying vinyl in 2018 and sitting down to listen to records.



Counter point: Kanye kept releasing different versions of The Life of Pablo over the span of a few months as he updated the songs. Yes I know Kanye has a lot of resources, but the idea was great.


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## budda (Mar 22, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Counter point: Kanye kept releasing different versions of The Life of Pablo over the span of a few months as he updated the songs. Yes I know Kanye has a lot of resources, but the idea was great.



If you dont have the fanbase he does, it probably wont work.


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## Andromalia (Mar 23, 2018)

ExileMetal said:


> Have you heard of Twitch? Many, many people are happy to pay other people to play games, in a time specific way, for their enjoyment. Music actually feels like an even better fit for this model, especially if they streamed live playing as part of what's included. That's not all though, because at that point you also gain a community feel which is currently entirely absent from music barring forums like this one and things like Facebook groups. I don't feel connected to other fans at all.



Disclaimer: I work in the gaming industry and working on events broadcasts is part of my income. (as an employee, not a streamer)

The difference is twofold: 

-People watch streamers for entertainment because competitive gaming matches aren't always the same. People are fine to spend two hours watching football, but they aren't listening to the same song for two hours.
-The videos are instructive. You can often get tips and advice from watching a streamer play, to get better at the game yourself. There are games I'm *very* good at, others where I suck, and for both cases I can watch videos or live streams to get information. I don't really see Misha (or anyone else, not singling anyone out) play 4 hours of instructional live videos per day and then host them on YT. (Because Twitch is only one part of the equation)

There is, however, a common point: very few streamers strike it rich, and a lot of them need other activities, such as live commentary for companies during event, promoting the game etc. If you can cite a name of someone who has been streaming for a few years, that person likely has the same income as a desk employee in a random company. (Note: that's not data I have access to, but educated guesses). Some get BIG, but they are few and far between. Streaming can appear as a well paid job when you're 18, but when you are getting 45 like me in a few days, that's certainly not a money making proposition, and I have all the insider contacts needed to make it work if I so wanted. I'd just rather shoot myself than play the same game for 6 hours every day for years and spend 3 others editing videos, with schedules determined by product releases.
And then you have those who try, stop school, fail and endup as chronically unemployed people because they sacrificed their education for nothing.


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## ExileMetal (Mar 23, 2018)

How funny, I also work in games!

Don't become too bogged down in my comparison. I'm mostly poking at the idea of musicians changing their view of the product they provide to more closely match the desires of customers. Of course, if you're doing it for fun, then none of this matters. I suspect that if music can only be done for fun in the future, it might be a sad future.


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## Andromalia (Mar 23, 2018)

Internet, bandcamp etc gave people the false impression that anybody can do it. But it has always worked that way: for 200 kids starting the piano in the conservatory, one will endup as a professional. One of the anomalies of the rock stardom period was that people could make it without being very proficient players at all. That's over, for the most part. Some of them learned on the fly and ar now pretty decent at age 70, but Keith Richards at 20 ? NOPE. Nobody will make it playing like that today, except if boobs.


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## bulb (Mar 23, 2018)

Just have fun with it


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## Stilicho (Mar 23, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Nobody will make it playing like that today, except if boobs.


Oh well, time to start training the gf to be the next Nili Brosh


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## Albake21 (Mar 23, 2018)

bulb said:


> Just have fun with it


Lol the shit storm that started just from that small bit of what you said.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 23, 2018)

Stilicho said:


> Nili Brosh


Eh... is... 

Is Nili a trap?


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## budda (Mar 23, 2018)

bulb said:


> Just have fun with it



Note: this is much easier to do when you don't have to worry about whether or not you can eat and pay bills


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## bulb (Mar 23, 2018)

budda said:


> Note: this is much easier to do when you don't have to worry about whether or not you can eat and pay bills


Yeah so if you can't make it your job easily and can't diversify the streams to where you can get the income you need to get by, then you will have to get a job that will support you and then you can do music in your free time. 
In that case, just have fun with it.


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 23, 2018)

If you can't pay your bills on time and have to worry about finances to the point where eating is an issue maybe you shouldn't even consider making music at that point in time and find a better job to sustain yourself. 

Working on a hobby or doing something that is as much of a time suck as music is as a job shouldn't even be a consideration if you've hit that kind of low financially. 

Either way I find when people complain about not having enough in some cases that person has never gone through the need to work two full time jobs. That or they terribly mismanage finances and time to the point where the only thing holding them back is themselves.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 23, 2018)

In case anyone/everyone’s failing to read between the lines, here:



bulb with nothing to sell said:


> The fact that you all spend all day posting on sevenstring.org instead of making music is enough to know you’ll never be professional musicians; so stop publicly worrying about it. I work my ass off and don’t make a penny; so stop pretending all this gossip about my finances has any bearing on your goldbricking daydreams of being a rockstar coming to pass. You autistic goons are lucky I even dignify to respond to all this bullshit you come up with about me and my life - GET YOUR OWN LIFE AND THINGS WILL START LOOKING UP. YOU CAN SUCK MY BALLS.


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## QuantumCybin (Mar 23, 2018)

You’re so edgy and sharp, kids could bump their foreheads into you and need stitches.


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## narad (Mar 23, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> You’re so edgy and sharp, kids could bump their foreheads into you and need stitches.



Dude's so sharp, he could be the fretwork on a Jackson Juggernaut. 

See, no need to take sides


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 23, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> You’re so edgy and sharp, kids could bump their foreheads into you and need stitches.


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 23, 2018)

narad said:


> Dude's so sharp, he could be the fretwork on a Jackson Juggernaut.
> 
> See, no need to take sides


I shave with ALW's posts for a baby smooth face.


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## ramses (Mar 23, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> If you can't pay your bills on time and have to worry about finances to the point where eating is an issue maybe you shouldn't even consider making music at that point in time and find a better job to sustain yourself.



A year ago I attended a seminar by a world renowned cellist. I saw so many kids asking her overly excited questions, that I decided to do a live troll for their own good and I asked her: "what advice do you have for people that want to be pro musicians?"

Her answer: "Only get into music if you do not need to make a living from it."

It is strange that something that makes life worth living, isn't enough to make a life out of it.


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## narad (Mar 23, 2018)

The906 said:


> I shave with ALW's posts for a baby smooth face.



Just be careful -- the smell of desperation makes for a poor aftershave.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 24, 2018)

narad said:


> Dude's so sharp, he could be the fretwork on a Jackson Juggernaut.
> 
> See, no need to take sides


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## Stilicho (Mar 24, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Eh... is...
> 
> Is Nili a trap?


Unfortunately not lol, she's just an Israeli guitarist who went to Berklee, made an "18 year old girl plays Guthrie" vid, self-published her album and then ended up playing with Tony MacAlpine and Virgil Donati somehow.
Here's one of her better songs, but she just reminds me of all the guys self-releasing their own very derivative imitations of Scar Symmetry, I can't imagine anyone is really into a second-rate imitation instead of the real thing:


Or maybe I'm just spoiled by Muenzner and Martin Miller these days:


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## lurè (Mar 24, 2018)

That Suhr is illegal


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## SamSam (Mar 24, 2018)

I would love to know the average age of the posters in this discussion. I find it very interesting but as much as I love playing and consuming music I have no interest in putting myself through what touring musicians do.

I have a great career and a solid income and can afford to have nice watched, a nice bike, an army of nice guitars and what not and keep a roof above my head. 

It's a nice dream, to play music around the world and seeing places. But then i regularly travel, stay in comfort and have a great time.

I travel to other European countries to see concerts frequently . 

I've travelled to the UK to see Periphery three times and frequently visit by myself for good death metal concerts.

But I don't envy their lifestyle. Only their chance to play in front of some awesome crowds


----------



## spudmunkey (Mar 24, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Eh... is...
> 
> Is Nili a trap?





Stilicho said:


> Unfortunately not lol,



Not judging...but I'm not sure you knew what he was asking, Stilicho.


----------



## SamSam (Mar 24, 2018)

Double posting madness.


----------



## Albake21 (Mar 24, 2018)

SamSam said:


> I would love to know the average age of the posters in this discussion. I find it very interesting but as much as I love playing and consuming music I have no interest in putting myself through what touring musicians do.
> 
> I have a great career and a solid income and can afford to have nice watched, a nice bike, an army of nice guitars and what not and keep a roof above my head.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. I love playing so much and I envy being able to play to a crowd of people. But at only 23 years old, I'm off to an amazing start of my IT career working for a post production company that does work for high profiles like the Marvel movies. I'm living on my own in Chicago and being able to afford some nice guitars. 

So if it was completely profitable, sure I would love to play music instead. But with today's music scene, I'm perfectly contempt with IT and playing music as a hobby after work and on the weekends.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Mar 24, 2018)

^ Similar situation, completely content with it. 

Especially since I just write music with my roommate or by myself but both of us are invested in our careers. So neither of us have aspirations to take it on the road ever, at most release some tracks every now and then. It'd also take some kind of passion for the music that I don't have to sink money into something so fruitless when I can do the same thing on my own schedule, at my own pace, and without the debt/disappointment of potentially never finding success in a saturated market.


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## Bdtunn (Mar 24, 2018)

Don't know if anyone linked this. But if you want to see the hardships of a band this is the documentary. It's about car bomb before they got a little popular.


----------



## ArtHam (Mar 24, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> One of the anomalies of the rock stardom period was that people could make it without being very proficient players at all. That's over, for the most part. Some of them learned on the fly and ar now pretty decent at age 70, but Keith Richards at 20 ? NOPE. Nobody will make it playing like that today, except if boobs.



Really now? What about Ed Sheeran then? Not proficient by any stretch of the imagination. Huge star though. You could even argue he's on of the most successful artists of this decade.


----------



## Andromalia (Mar 25, 2018)

ArtHam said:


> Really now? What about Ed Sheeran then? Not proficient by any stretch of the imagination. Huge star though. You could even argue he's on of the most successful artists of this decade.



I had to google the guy, never heard of him.


----------



## prlgmnr (Mar 25, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> I had to google the guy, never heard of him.


Ah yes, the rare "has andromalia heard of them" criterion of international stardom.


----------



## Andromalia (Mar 25, 2018)

Well, yes. If neither me nor any of my colleagues have ever heard of him (I just asked) then your "huge star" is like wishing your favourite artist was one. (None of them have ever heard of Periphery, either) Or he's a country music dude only famous in America.


----------



## bhakan (Mar 25, 2018)

I just looked it up, he had the best selling album of 2017, and his previous two albums were the 6th and 16th best selling albums of 2017. He's undeniably a massively popular musician.


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## mpexus (Mar 25, 2018)

Actually he is really famous. I have no clue about what he sings ( I dont listen to radio since I hate it) but his face and name pops ups quite often. He even had and appearence (singing) on one of Game of Thrones latest EPs.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Mar 25, 2018)

Sheeran is more famous as a singer songwriter amongst folks who think the singer songwriters are guitarists...

I.e. the buying public...

To the tune of $50million a year...


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## Seabeast2000 (Mar 25, 2018)

Think maybe a young en-reddened Michael MacDonald without the keyboard.


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## ArtHam (Mar 25, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Well, yes. If neither me nor any of my colleagues have ever heard of him (I just asked) then your "huge star" is like wishing your favourite artist was one. (None of them have ever heard of Periphery, either) Or he's a country music dude only famous in America.


Well then prepare to be enlightened. Ed Sheeran's last album was number one in your country last year. And he was number one in many parts of the world. He's a HUGE star. For the last 2 years he was the number 1 streamed artist on Spotify. He outsells pretty much everybody. And he's a guitarist. Not a very good one.

Your statement was complete and utter bs and you knew it was. Truth is that songs matter more than proficiency and always will.


----------



## prlgmnr (Mar 25, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Well, yes. If neither me nor any of my colleagues have ever heard of him (I just asked) then your "huge star" is like wishing your favourite artist was one. (None of them have ever heard of Periphery, either) Or he's a country music dude only famous in America.


oh good, you're leaning right into this one


----------



## prlgmnr (Mar 25, 2018)

Though the argument "no one in this room has heard of Ed Sheeran, and no one in this room has heard of Periphery, so their level of popularity/sales/wealth etc is identical" is certainly fascinating.


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## ArtHam (Mar 25, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Though the argument "no one in this room has heard of Ed Sheeran, and no one in this room has heard of Periphery, so their level of popularity/sales/wealth etc is identical" is certainly fascinating.


They may not know the name of the guy. That seems possible. But chances are they will know the music when they hear it. The chances are better than with, say, [insert proficient youtube guitar player here].


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## SamSam (Mar 25, 2018)

He also writes for other artists, if you haven't heard a song sung by him You have probably heard one written by him.

One massive pet hate of mine is when you have a decent band going with one member who is dead set on "making it". You really all need to be on the same.page if you want to be career musicians.


----------



## spudmunkey (Mar 25, 2018)

SamSam said:


> He also writes for other artists, if you haven't heard a song sung by him You have probably heard one written by him.



Sia is like that, too. Whether you know her or not by her own name, she's written hits for Rhianna, Katy Perry, Alicia Keys, Beyonce, Kylie Minoque. And yet, I still had a coworker who was still trying to proclaim how "unfamous" Sia was, claiming he had never heard of her so she must not be very successful, by trying to tell me he also wasn't familiar with most of those on that list, which at that point, was just hilarious watching him dig in his heels trying to say he hasn't heard of Katy Perry to try to prove his point, and yet...himrealizing at the same time that doing so killed any authority he had with his not-having-heard-of-someone opinion.


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## dr_game0ver (Mar 25, 2018)

Ed Sheeran? Isn't he the ginger one from Harry Potter?


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## Zalbu (Mar 25, 2018)

Ed Sheeran is actually a pretty good musician as far as pop artists go, he isn't really the best person to use as an example for undeserved fame.


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## Ebony (Mar 25, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> he isn't really the best person to use as an example for undeserved fame.



No you're right, that title firmly belongs to Kim Kardashian, but she isn't a musici....oh wait:


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 25, 2018)

Ebony said:


> No you're right, that title firmly belongs to Kim Kardashian, but she isn't a musici....oh wait:



Anyone know where I can get Kurt Cobain's shotgun? I wanna bleach my hair and do a cosplay thing after listening to that...


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Mar 25, 2018)

We can't even use AutoTune as the disqualifier any more since even that actual good singers use it here and there. First world problem.


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## Avedas (Mar 25, 2018)

Ed Sheeran is pretty decent (personally can't stand most of his music but whatever) but I guess since he doesn't mime technical death metal songs on an 11 string Kiesel on Youtube some people here won't acknowledge his songwriting ability.


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## Ebony (Mar 25, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Ed Sheeran is pretty decent (personally can't stand most of his music but whatever) but I guess since he doesn't mime technical death metal songs on an 11 string Kiesel on Youtube some people here won't acknowledge his songwriting ability.



People on _this_ forum would acknowledge him for playing a _Kiesel_?!


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## Avedas (Mar 25, 2018)

Ebony said:


> People on _this_ forum would acknowledge him for playing a _Kiesel_?!


Detractors may have a loud voice but there are still Kiesel NGDs like every other day.


----------



## budda (Mar 25, 2018)

Ebony said:


> People on _this_ forum would acknowledge him for playing a _Kiesel_?!



And how.


----------



## ArtHam (Mar 26, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Ed Sheeran is actually a pretty good musician as far as pop artists go, he isn't really the best person to use as an example for undeserved fame.




I never said he was a bad artist. I like what he does a lot.
The only thing I said was he's not a very good GUITARIST.
The guy I commented to said you have to be a proficient player in this time to get anywhere. So I brought up Ed Sheeran as an example of a singer and player who wouldn't have impressed anybody in the 60's but his songs make him famous and loved all over the world. The words undeserved fame were never used as I really dig his work, but can still objectively say his playing is nothing special. Virtuosity and artistry are 2 completely different things.


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## JohnIce (Mar 26, 2018)

Eyeing through these 16 pages I've learned that a) Building a business on touring relatively unpopular retro music too loud and abrasive to sound that good in the age-restricted dive bars it's played at, then trying to push the industry standard black Fruit-of-the-Loom Heavy Cotton shirt onto the bar guests (out of all fashion demographics), and otherwise spending two years off-grid in social media silence making a full-length album of a measly 10 songs at great expense aimed at a generation that doesn't listen to albums anyway, is apparently not making a profit. And the solution is to not _want_ to make a profit, not to make any changes to the half a century old business model. Certainly a shocking revelation! Though not as shocking as...

...b) Ed Sheeran's fame is likely a media hoax, possibly invented by the same people claiming the earth is round.


----------



## SamSam (Mar 26, 2018)

The business model clearly still world since Ed Sheeran is happily rolling around in pateks.

Point a) is half on point.

If you can make money playing your music as yoyr dream job. Then yes, find a good job, and enjoy art for the sake of art. If you can make it big in music, awesome, good for you.

Just don't expect to do so in your seven piece avant garde spaz-jazz-core project.


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## JohnIce (Mar 26, 2018)

SamSam said:


> The business model clearly still world since Ed Sheeran is happily rolling around in pateks.



That isn't Ed Sheeran's business model though, because he's not making metal music. Playing anywhere with an acoustic guitar and a loop pedal is a world of difference to a 5-piece metal band pushing 120dB, and it puts far less demands on the PA and sound engineer and room acoustics than a metal band would. The resulting live experience of Ed Sheeran vs. metal band is then almost nothing alike. The same can be said for rappers and DJ's, the sheer volume and engineering skill needed to make metal sound halfway ok live doesn't apply to most other genres.

Also, Ed Sheeran is a prime example of an artist that utilizes new tech and platforms to release new music all the time, and some of his songs are constantly evolving as he adds and changes things throughout his career. I mean his song "You need me I don't need you" is something like 11 minutes long now because he's been writing it while performing it for ten years. His "business model" for releasing music is a far cry from the old lock-yourself-up and make a full-length album that metal bands tend to cling to. Even though Ed does that too, because he does everything, because it's his job.


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## SamSam (Mar 26, 2018)

There are differences of course, however ultimately it's a matter of making money from making and/or playing music.

And as has has been the case for decades, only a fraction will make a good living off of it.

Metallica still make plenty of money off of the black album. People are still buying it every week. Metal can be a big seller, but it is a niche, you cannoy expect to make the same money from a minute audience compared to the audience of large multinational artist.


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## exo (Mar 26, 2018)

You know, I’m reasonably sure the Ed Sheeran happening to catch Peter Jackson’s ear and recording the track featured during the credits of a billion dollar box office movie seen by 100 million theater go-ers, (never mind the DVD/Blu-Ray/Digitalsales/streaming stuff that doesn’t get counted as “theatrical box office numbers”) has a whole lot more to do with his success than any other single factor.

That’s not “business model” discussion, that’s a matter of “he got lucky” crossed with “who you know is more important than what you do”.....


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 26, 2018)

^Ed was massive before that though. His debut album and its singles dominated charts while he was working his way up to 3 nights in a row sellout stadium status. Dude worked his ass off to get where he has, being lucky that Peter Jackson got him to make a song for the Hobbit can't really be said when he had millions of album sales under his belt. He played a sellout show here to 50k people but took the time to play a secret show in a small bar cause they helped support him when he was starting off.


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## ArtHam (Mar 26, 2018)

^
You were just ahead of me.
He was already a million selling artist about 3 years before the hobbit film. Massively popular with teens and Jackson's daughter turned him on to Sheeran's music.


----------



## JohnIce (Mar 26, 2018)

SamSam said:


> There are differences of course, however ultimately it's a matter of making money from making and/or playing music.
> 
> And as has has been the case for decades, only a fraction will make a good living off of it.
> 
> Metallica still make plenty of money off of the black album. People are still buying it every week. Metal can be a big seller, but it is a niche, you cannoy expect to make the same money from a minute audience compared to the audience of large multinational artist.



The Black Album was 30 years ago... it came out at a good time. Elvis still sells records too, it says nothing about the sustained cultural relevance of rockabilly as a genre. Artist impact vs. genre popularity 3 decades later really have nothing to do with each other. 



exo said:


> You know, I’m reasonably sure the Ed Sheeran happening to catch Peter Jackson’s ear and recording the track featured during the credits of a billion dollar box office movie seen by 100 million theater go-ers, (never mind the DVD/Blu-Ray/Digitalsales/streaming stuff that doesn’t get counted as “theatrical box office numbers”) has a whole lot more to do with his success than any other single factor.



I and millions of others were fans before that. Apparently Peter Jackson too.


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## Albake21 (Mar 26, 2018)

I love how this thread just derailed to talking only about Ed Sheeran...


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## wankerness (Mar 26, 2018)

I've never heard Ed Sheeran. With any luck, I never will.


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## QuantumCybin (Mar 26, 2018)

All this Ed Sheeran talk makes me want to repost his new signature guitar that ArtDecade shared in the off topic section:


----------



## SamSam (Mar 26, 2018)

JohnIce said:


> The Black Album was 30 years ago... it came out at a good time. Elvis still sells records too, it says nothing about the sustained cultural relevance of rockabilly as a genre. Artist impact vs. genre popularity 3 decades later really have nothing to do with each other.



Teenagers aren't buying the black album because it came out at a good time. I didn't buy that album because it was a good time. I bought it 10 years later because I was getting into metal and my friends said I needed to hear it!

You can't justify the albums current sales because 30 years ago it was a good year...

They built a brand with longevity and not just for loyal followers but for new listeners.

If the album was still selling a silly copies every single month (May be still Is?). I think it speak volumes for its cultural relevance.

Yes they are the exception to the rule. But still.


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## SamSam (Mar 26, 2018)

And speak of the devil...

http://www.metalsucks.net/2018/03/2...estruct-leaps-up-the-billboard-top-200-again/

Number 2, with 63k of 65k being traditional album sales. 2016 must have been a really good year.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 26, 2018)

Aren't they giving away the album with ticket sales? And didn't they just go on another leg of the tour?


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## SamSam (Mar 26, 2018)

Do free albums count towards sales? I have no idea personally.


----------



## mastapimp (Mar 26, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Aren't they giving away the album with ticket sales? And didn't they just go on another leg of the tour?



Yeah, these numbers are likely due to the new tour going on sale. I bought two tickets to see Metallica last summer and i got some followup emails through live nation offering a free digital copy of the album. I think they're calling this a traditional album sale cause the whole thing is included as a copy and not streamed. Unfortunately, they didn't give you the option to decline the album for a reduced ticket price, nor do i recall it mentioned that a digital copy would be included. Kind of a forced bundled sale to boost their billboard numbers.


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## Demiurge (Mar 26, 2018)

Prince did that before, I think, including a copy of an album with a concert ticket. I don't know if the overall price of the ticket contained that expense, though. 

I suppose if a recording contract has sales requirements, it is a clever way of trying to meet it, even if the actual income isn't proportionate.


----------



## budda (Mar 26, 2018)

SamSam said:


> Do free albums count towards sales? I have no idea personally.



They can, depends on how it's recorded.



Demiurge said:


> Prince did that before, I think, including a copy of an album with a concert ticket. I don't know if the overall price of the ticket contained that expense, though.



Oh the cost is definitely in the ticket price. Including the album in ticket sales is an easy way to increase numbers.


----------



## JohnIce (Mar 26, 2018)

SamSam said:


> Teenagers aren't buying the black album because it came out at a good time. I didn't buy that album because it was a good time. I bought it 10 years later because I was getting into metal and my friends said I needed to hear it!
> 
> You can't justify the albums current sales because 30 years ago it was a good year...
> 
> ...



I think you misunderstood me. For an album to have a significant cultural impact, it needs to be released at the right time. Hendrix is still a celebrated artist to this day, but he's also closely associated with his cultural epoch, i.e. Woodstock, the height of hippie culture, psychedelic drugs and rebellion against Nixon. That's the difference between Hendrix, the god of guitar, vs. people like Bonamassa, Eric Johnson or SRV, great players all but none of them managed to be a new Hendrix. And no-one will ever be a new Metallica. Artists never create art in a vacuum, and timing plays a huge role in the cultural impact of any album, movie, painting, whatever. History is full of artists, scientists and inventors who were just a few years too late with their masterpiece, and missed their chance at world recognition. If the Black Album had come out in, say, 1996, then the world of metal might have looked completely different today.

Such speculations aside, my point is a classic is a classic and their time of release matters in the long run. People still watch Casablanca and Dolce Vita as they're classic films, it doesn't mean that releasing a brand new movie in that style is gonna work in 2018.


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 27, 2018)

Lolz...Misha just traded in his Ferrari for a new Audi R8 like, 2 weeks ago -showing it off on the car thread. Misha is doing just fine...living within your means is a different story...


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 27, 2018)

Here it is...traded his Ferrari 488 and still has his Porsche S3...life must be rough


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 27, 2018)

Please try to remain on the topic of Ed Sheehan while claiming to have never heard of him.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Mar 27, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Please try to remain on the topic of Ed Sheehan while claiming to have never heard of him.


oh er em, sorry...


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 27, 2018)

Man, talking about Ed Sheeran here is like talking about starving kids on Jerry Springer


----------



## Vletrmx (Mar 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Here it is...traded his Ferrari 488 and still has his Porsche S3...life must be rough



It's funny you feel the need to bring his personal belongings into this even though he wasn't complaining about not making money in the original video. 

This is a pretty shitty article on UG's part.


----------



## Zok (Mar 27, 2018)

I think it's funny that people think Metal bands make money. They're not celebrities to anyone but us. Even if you don't know Ed Sheeran, he's still famous. With Metal? Not so much.


----------



## SamSam (Mar 27, 2018)

JohnIce said:


> I think you misunderstood me. For an album to have a significant cultural impact, it needs to be released at the right time. Hendrix is still a celebrated artist to this day, but he's also closely associated with his cultural epoch, i.e. Woodstock, the height of hippie culture, psychedelic drugs and rebellion against Nixon. That's the difference between Hendrix, the god of guitar, vs. people like Bonamassa, Eric Johnson or SRV, great players all but none of them managed to be a new Hendrix. And no-one will ever be a new Metallica. Artists never create art in a vacuum, and timing plays a huge role in the cultural impact of any album, movie, painting, whatever. History is full of artists, scientists and inventors who were just a few years too late with their masterpiece, and missed their chance at world recognition. If the Black Album had come out in, say, 1996, then the world of metal might have looked completely different today.
> 
> Such speculations aside, my point is a classic is a classic and their time of release matters in the long run. People still watch Casablanca and Dolce Vita as they're classic films, it doesn't mean that releasing a brand new movie in that style is gonna work in 2018.



A lot of valid points here which I do accept, ultimately we are just waiting for the next big thing to come along which will drag other similar music of varying quality along with them.

2000 to 2003 Nu Metal was huge in the UK (a bit later than the American hey day I believe?) Inevitably rock music will enjoy a comeback of sorts. Whether we as individuals enjoy is another matter.


----------



## MFB (Mar 27, 2018)

Who the hell is Ed Sheerhan?

It's TED Sheerhan, you uncultured swine.


----------



## budda (Mar 27, 2018)

Vletrmx said:


> It's funny you feel the need to bring his personal belongings into this even though he wasn't complaining about not making money in the original video.
> 
> This is a pretty shitty article on UG's part.



No UG wanted a clickbait headline to get a ton of traffic. It worked.


----------



## coreysMonster (Mar 27, 2018)

I just checked UG for the first time in ages and the top tab is an Ed Sheeran song


----------



## Avedas (Mar 27, 2018)

UG news is pretty much Buzzfeed tier.


----------



## Zalbu (Mar 27, 2018)

ArtHam said:


> I never said he was a bad artist. I like what he does a lot.
> The only thing I said was he's not a very good GUITARIST.
> The guy I commented to said you have to be a proficient player in this time to get anywhere. So I brought up Ed Sheeran as an example of a singer and player who wouldn't have impressed anybody in the 60's but his songs make him famous and loved all over the world. The words undeserved fame were never used as I really dig his work, but can still objectively say his playing is nothing special. Virtuosity and artistry are 2 completely different things.


He's not a metal player, just because he doesn't sweep pick arpeggios at 220 BPM doesn't mean he's not a good guitar player. I'm comparing him to other pop artists, how many people on the Billboard pop charts even play an instrument, let alone can work their way around a loop pedal like Ed Sheeran does?


----------



## ArtDecade (Mar 27, 2018)

If Misha could only monetize this thread, maybe he could quit his summer job of mowing my lawn.


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 27, 2018)

Even if I didn’t suspect you of being Mike Kineally, I’d still love you.


----------



## ArtHam (Mar 27, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> He's not a metal player, just because he doesn't sweep pick arpeggios at 220 BPM doesn't mean he's not a good guitar player. I'm comparing him to other pop artists, how many people on the Billboard pop charts even play an instrument, let alone can work their way around a loop pedal like Ed Sheeran does?



All guitar parts in his songs are super basic, use pretty much the same strumming patterns. Working a loop pedal is not playing guitar. Even among acoustic style players nothing he does is far above entry level. I agree that it sounds good. I'm a fan of his and actually own his records. But none of the playing is amazing on a level of say Tommy Emmanuel or John Butler. It's typical 3 chords and the truth stuff. Just to be safe: I'm not putting him down.


----------



## Zalbu (Mar 27, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> If Misha could only monetize this thread, maybe he could quit his summer job of mowing my lawn.


I know right, unfortunately he has to settle for harvesting the pure edginess and angst from yours and ALW's posts and sell that as energy. Watch out, Elon Musk, there's a new player in town!


----------



## bulb (Mar 27, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> I know right, unfortunately he has to settle for harvesting the pure edginess and angst from yours and ALW's posts and sell that as energy. Watch out, Elon Musk, there's a new player in town!



Hahahah


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 27, 2018)

It’s funny people put their personal life on blast and spread themselves out on these forums and expect people not to remember conversations and pictures they posted when they make ironic statements...?


----------



## ArtDecade (Mar 27, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> I know right, unfortunately he has to settle for harvesting the pure edginess and angst from yours and ALW's posts and sell that as energy. Watch out, Elon Musk, there's a new player in town!



I know right, unfortunately palm muted 1s and 0s aren't considered currency and that means Elon Musk and I will still be getting our lawns mowed.


----------



## Zalbu (Mar 27, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> I know right, unfortunately palm muted 1s and 0s aren't considered currency and that means Elon Musk and I will still be getting our lawns mowed.


And there's another gigawatt of edginess, Misha will become a millionaire in no time!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 27, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> I know right, unfortunately palm muted 1s and 0s aren't considered currency and that means Elon Musk and I will still be getting our lawns mowed.


Chair of wheels? Or mower of lawns? Chair of wheels?! Mower of lawns!?


----------



## prlgmnr (Mar 27, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Chair of wheels? Or mower of lawns? Chair of wheels?! Mower of lawns!?


What's happened to Alex Skolnick?


----------



## ArtDecade (Mar 27, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> What's happened to Alex Skolnick?



*Skolnick: "we [Testament] make no money"*


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 27, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> What's happened to Alex Skolnick?


DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE!



ArtDecade said:


> Skolnick: "we [Testament] make no money"


----------



## bulb (Mar 28, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> If Misha could only monetize this thread, maybe he could quit his summer job of mowing my lawn.





ArtDecade said:


> I know right, unfortunately palm muted 1s and 0s aren't considered currency and that means Elon Musk and I will still be getting our lawns mowed.



Mowing your lawn? Do you tell yourself that you are in some kind of bizzaro universe where saying things makes them true?

I make money doing things I love, and I have a good life.


----------



## Forkface (Mar 28, 2018)

bulb said:


> I make money doing things I love, and I have a good life.



aaaaaand /thread.

i honestly wish more people could say those words lol, but such is life.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 28, 2018)

bulb said:


> Mowing your lawn? Do you tell yourself that you are in some kind of bizzaro universe where saying things makes them true?
> 
> I make money doing things I love, and I have a good life.


 

Apparently jokes do not exist in Planet Periphery.


----------



## Ebony (Mar 28, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Apparently jokes do not exist in Planet Periphery.



They do exist on that planet, just not on the Periphery™ of it.


----------



## bulb (Mar 28, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Apparently jokes do not exist in Planet Periphery.



Of course jokes exist on Planet Periphery, however over here, jokes are funny!


----------



## sakeido (Mar 28, 2018)

bulb said:


> Of course jokes exist on Planet Periphery, however over here, jokes are funny!



this post was not made from Planet Periphery


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 28, 2018)

This is probably the least humorous site I’ve been on lol...pass any humor and the “contrary crew” and keyboard philanthropists mount a quick rebuttal


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 28, 2018)

This is probably the least humorous site I’ve been on lol...pass any humor and the “contrary crew” and keyboard philanthropists mount a quick rebuttal


----------



## chipchappy (Mar 28, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> This is probably the least humorous site I’ve been on lol...pass any humor and the “contrary crew” and keyboard philanthropists mount a quick rebuttal



I come here to talk about guitars and music. Not laugh. 

So far, I haven't found one person on SS that I've found funny, and it's perfect. 

Maybe we just come here for different reasons


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 28, 2018)

I agree, see...quick rebuttal...no humor here lol


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 28, 2018)

bulb said:


> Of course jokes exist on Planet Periphery, however over here, jokes are funny!


I think the fact you were incensed over him making a joke about you mowing his lawn since you can't monetize this thread, and that 1s and 0s on guitar are not currency was quite funny.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 28, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I agree, see...quick rebuttal...no humor here lol


What do you expect from a guy named after a ventriloquist dummy and a guy who poops in an outhouse from a cartoon show?


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 28, 2018)

See, funny...he hasn’t found 1 funny person on here?...


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 28, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> So far, I haven't found one person on SS that I've found funny, and it's perfect.


Are you kidding me, mate? I'm damn hilarious. That's why I left the reply with the highest number of likes in this thread.


Emperor Guillotine said:


> Periphery IV: This Time It’s Patreon


----------



## Avedas (Mar 28, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I agree, see...quick rebuttal...no humor here lol


To be fair that guy probably doesn't find anyone from this planet funny.


----------



## chipchappy (Mar 28, 2018)

Avedas said:


> To be fair that guy probably doesn't find anyone from this planet funny.



NAILED it


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 28, 2018)

No one mentions it being established by the thread title that Planet Periphery itself makes no money.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> No one mentions it being established by the thread title that Planet Periphery itself makes no money.


Too many social programs.


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 28, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> NAILED it


I hope you find yourself funny because that is classic!!


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 28, 2018)

I think we need a humor thread...


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 28, 2018)

Every thread is a humor thread - That’s why I post here. The main difference between this site and /r/guitarcirclejerk is that they’re in on the joke.

-dude says band makes no money
-compulsively reads thread about himself titled “dude says band makes no money”
- rebuffs obvious jest about mowing lawns by stating he makes money doing what he loves in thread titled with his own quote stating he doesn’t.
-19 pages of autistic NOT FUNNY REEEEEE that is hilarious and derails into twenty people competing to know the least about Ed Sheeran.

Of course you make no money, dude - These are your fans. You know from all their disposable time that they have no disposable income.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Every thread is a humor thread - That’s why I post here. The main difference between this site and /r/circlejerk is that they’re in on the joke.
> 
> -dude says band makes no money
> -compulsively reads thread about him titled “dude says band makes no money”
> ...


----------



## Flappydoodle (Mar 28, 2018)

exo said:


> You know, I’m reasonably sure the Ed Sheeran happening to catch Peter Jackson’s ear and recording the track featured during the credits of a billion dollar box office movie seen by 100 million theater go-ers, (never mind the DVD/Blu-Ray/Digitalsales/streaming stuff that doesn’t get counted as “theatrical box office numbers”) has a whole lot more to do with his success than any other single factor.
> 
> That’s not “business model” discussion, that’s a matter of “he got lucky” crossed with “who you know is more important than what you do”.....



AKA the key to real success in the majority of industries. Whether it's movies, music, law, finance, politics or even engineering, great success is going to come from luck and contacts.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Mar 28, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Lolz...Misha just traded in his Ferrari for a new Audi R8 like, 2 weeks ago -showing it off on the car thread. Misha is doing just fine...living within your means is a different story...



Pretty sure his dad is wealthy. He didn't afford those things from the music industry

Which does make it slightly amusing when he writes 'just have fun with it'. Easy to do when you don't have any financial worries


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 28, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Pretty sure his dad is wealthy. He didn't afford those things from the music industry
> 
> Which does make it slightly amusing when he writes 'just have fun with it'. Easy to do when you don't have any financial worries


Trust fund babies...


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 28, 2018)

It’s called “passive streams of income” - Just as any of us adults with working parents used to have.


----------



## bulb (Mar 28, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Pretty sure his dad is wealthy. He didn't afford those things from the music industry
> 
> Which does make it slightly amusing when he writes 'just have fun with it'. Easy to do when you don't have any financial worries



The thing is I don't have financial worries because I worked for it. My dad isn't wealthy and even if he was he would never have given me a handout. 

Is it genuinely that unfathomable that I actually worked for what I have?


----------



## Hollowway (Mar 28, 2018)

chipchappy said:


> So far, I haven't found one person on SS that I've found funny, and it's perfect.



We need a "Make chipchappy laugh" thread. I'll go first: 

I have a small penis.


That's GOLD, Jerry, GOLD!


----------



## Hollowway (Mar 28, 2018)

bulb said:


> The thing is I don't have financial worries because I worked for it. My dad isn't wealthy and even if he was he would never have given me a handout.
> 
> Is it genuinely that unfathomable that I actually worked for what I have?



Nah, I don't think it's that. Based on what I'm seeing online, I think it's that you said that you aren't able to make money in Periphery, but at the same time you have nicer cars and watches than most people are able to afford - with ANY daytime job. So people are left wondering if you make hundreds of thousands of dollars from Horizon, or if, when you say Periphery doesn't make enough money to live, you mean "at a might higher standard of living that most of the rest of us would assume."

I'm not being judgmental - I am a HUGE fan of yours (since zyglrox days), and I would love to see musicians be rewarded for what they do. But, I really do wonder what it takes to be able to do music and afford high end cars and watches. Is it the Horizon stuff? Did you invest in the stock market? Is it all on credit? Since a lot of us would love to know "what it takes" to do what you're doing, maybe you could shine a light on that aspect of your career, and let us know.


----------



## bulb (Mar 28, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Nah, I don't think it's that. Based on what I'm seeing online, I think it's that you said that you aren't able to make money in Periphery, but at the same time you have nicer cars and watches than most people are able to afford - with ANY daytime job. So people are left wondering if you make hundreds of thousands of dollars from Horizon, or if, when you say Periphery doesn't make enough money to live, you mean "at a might higher standard of living that most of the rest of us would assume."
> 
> I'm not being judgmental - I am a HUGE fan of yours (since zyglrox days), and I would love to see musicians be rewarded for what they do. But, I really do wonder what it takes to be able to do music and afford high end cars and watches. Is it the Horizon stuff? Did you invest in the stock market? Is it all on credit? Since a lot of us would love to know "what it takes" to do what you're doing, maybe you could shine a light on that aspect of your career, and let us know.



I definitely see what you are saying, but that's why in the original interview I addressed that stuff. 
If you want to see the original interview (and not the dumb click bait article Ultimate Guitar made from it) you can find it here:


The whole point of that whole thing was that most likely your band alone will not allow you to survive, even if you live a very simple and inexpensive lifestyle, so plan accordingly.

My income comes from a combination of being a co-owner of GGD and Horizon Devices, Signature Gear, Clinics and various little freelance opportunities here and there. This is obviously in addition to the money that Periphery makes, which as I have mentioned isn't a huge amount, but is welcome in this context. 

I have been fortunate to have those all add up to where I can enjoy some of the finer things that I am a fan of, but keep in mind that I also don't have and don't plan on having kids haha. Also I have no job security, and that's why the diversification of my income is very important. To counter this I have been putting substantial amounts of money into a retirement account. If you are self-employed a SEP IRA is definitely worth looking into!


----------



## Watty (Mar 28, 2018)

bulb said:


> The whole point of that whole thing was that most likely your band alone will not allow you to survive, even if you live a very simple and inexpensive lifestyle, so plan accordingly.
> 
> My income comes from a combination of being a co-owner of GGD and Horizon Devices, Signature Gear, Clinics and various little freelance opportunities here and there. This is obviously in addition to the money that Periphery makes, which as I have mentioned isn't a huge amount, but is welcome in this context.
> 
> I have been fortunate to have those all add up to where I can enjoy some of the finer things that I am a fan of, but keep in mind that I also don't have and don't plan on having kids haha. Also I have no job security, and that's why the diversification of my income is very important. To counter this I have been putting substantial amounts of money into a retirement account. If you are self-employed a SEP IRA is definitely worth looking into!



Fair points well said; the no kids thing is especially pertinent here I think.

I'd tend to say it's none of our business how you choose to manage your finances, but it does seem to be at least somewhat topical.


----------



## bulb (Mar 28, 2018)

Watty said:


> Fair points well said; the no kids thing is especially pertinent here I think.
> 
> I'd tend to say it's none of our business how you choose to manage your finances, but it does seem to be at least somewhat topical.


I'd agree with you, but it would seem that some people are quite content with writing it off as if I'm some sort of trust-fund rich kid who got everything handed to me, and that's especially frustrating when I have worked as hard as I have to have the things I want.


----------



## Watty (Mar 29, 2018)

bulb said:


> I'd agree with you, but it would seem that some people are quite content with writing it off as if I'm some sort of trust-fund rich kid who got everything handed to me, and that's especially frustrating when I have worked as hard as I have to have the things I want.



I hear you on that. I saw you guys live like 8-9 years ago now? Some hole in the wall in Tacoma, WA with $7 tickets. I bought two shirts while chatting with Alex and he joked that you guys would be able to eat that night as a result. Some people are always going to focus on the success without acknowledging the humble beginnings.


----------



## ramses (Mar 29, 2018)

bulb said:


> ... I also don't have and don't plan on having kids haha ...



Bingo!


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 29, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Pretty sure his dad is wealthy. He didn't afford those things from the music industry
> 
> Which does make it slightly amusing when he writes 'just have fun with it'. Easy to do when you don't have any financial worries


I work around full blown race and supercars so I know what goes into owning and maintaining those things, I was making the point that he’s doing fine regardless...where his money comes from is none of my business


----------



## Hollowway (Mar 29, 2018)

bulb said:


> I definitely see what you are saying, but that's why in the original interview I addressed that stuff.
> If you want to see the original interview (and not the dumb click bait article Ultimate Guitar made from it) you can find it here:
> 
> 
> ...




Very cool. I think it’s cool to have your insight here, and advice. It’s IMMENSELY helpful to younger people looking to do music, because they can see a viable path. And, like you say, there is more too what you said than the clickbait headline. I still think it’s a bummer that music written and performed by a band m can’t provide a living for all but a select few, but it’s really cool to see that your other income streams - all of which are related to music in one way or another - make it totally doable.


----------



## wannabguitarist (Mar 29, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> AKA the key to real success in the majority of industries. Whether it's movies, music, law, finance, politics or even engineering, great success is going to come from luck and contacts.



So you could say @bulb has luck as a constant?


----------



## QuantumCybin (Mar 29, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> So you could say @bulb has luck as a constant?



I might be wrong but I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that that is actually the reason why the song is called that. They all feel lucky.


----------



## chipchappy (Mar 29, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> We need a "Make chipchappy laugh" thread. I'll go first:
> 
> I have a small penis.
> 
> ...





I don't know what was up my ass last night.

I do find a lotta stuff on here comical. I think I just find it silly when I find a thread about some guys band income turning into a throwing-shade-fest. But regardless, in hindsight, this is a good place for inside jokes that people outside of guitarists/musicians wouldnt get.

@Hollowway I'll go next:

My propensity for IPAs has forced me to develop man tits



Emperor Guillotine said:


> Are you kidding me, mate? I'm damn hilarious. That's why I left the reply with the highest number of likes in this thread.



U right U right man  well done


----------



## diagrammatiks (Mar 29, 2018)

20 pages...
it's always interesting to see what people splerge out.

none of the last 3 cars Misha bought were current model years. also there's the concept of the trade-in. It's not like he bought 3 cars.

Plus the man is a full time musicians on top of his other ventures..any skilled worker at that level of performance can save 200k to buy a few cars...especially if you have no kids and never plan on having any kids. 


You used to be able to buy 3 Ferraris a year just being a big enough band to fill stadiums. Nobody is making malsteem money just playing shows and selling records anymore

That can't be that hard to understand.

You need an entirely different set of skills now to market yourself and make money these days.

Lindsey Stirling monetizes at something ike 300k-600k just from youtube ad revenue.


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## Zalbu (Mar 29, 2018)

If being a contrarian edgelord on an internet forum for guitar nerds is what passes off as humor and jokes nowadays then Misha definitely chose the wrong career because the bar for being a comedian seems to be getting lower and lower every day.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Mar 29, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> You need an entirely different set of skills now to market yourself and make money these days.



It must be exhausting. You need to stay on top of your Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc and constantly post tactically trying to squeeze as many likes, views and shares as possible in the hopes that you can then make money from a tiny fraction of that audience. All while dealing with complete over saturation that resulted in punishing algorithms. It was so much easier in the early days of YouTube, just upload a video and sit back.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Mar 29, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> If being a contrarian edgelord on an internet forum for guitar nerds is what passes off as humor and jokes nowadays then Misha definitely chose the wrong career because the bar for being a comedian seems to be getting lower and lower every day.



hello welcome to the internet


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## Avedas (Mar 29, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> It must be exhausting. You need to stay on top of your Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc and constantly post tactically trying to squeeze as many likes, views and shares as possible in the hopes that you can then make money from a tiny fraction of that audience. All while dealing with complete over saturation that resulted in punishing algorithms. It was so much easier in the early days of YouTube, just upload a video and sit back.


The social media game is a wash unless you're an uber hot Californian socialite girl living off daddy's gigantic salary because everyone else has to spend every waking hour paying attention to it and actually making some sort of viable content at the same time.


----------



## Metalloutd (Mar 29, 2018)

bulb said:


> Maybe so, but this is a situation that extends to bands that actually make good music too, it’s definitely not unique to Periphery.
> 
> Again, not complaining about anything because I have a great life thanks to the music industry.
> 
> ...



When I was young I dreamed of being able to live making music, here in Italy, but obviously, because of the genre that I loved to play (death metal) and due to the fact that I was not such a great talent (even if it is not necessarily important and essential of course) after twenty year I work as an administrative clerk, with a mortgage on my shoulders and so many expenses to be able to live in dignity.
I'm surprised however that who play in a great band like Periphery (band that I love to madness and that I went to see live three times) 
has economic difficulties, if so they can be called.
I believe the problems are in every sector and in every job, we need to see how each one of us is bowing to give everything for his dream or is bowing to bend to the logic of the modern life.

p.s. I'm sorry for poor english


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## ArtDecade (Mar 29, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Misha definitely chose the wrong career



Agreed.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 29, 2018)

Avedas said:


> The social media game is a wash unless you're an uber hot Californian socialite girl living off daddy's gigantic salary because everyone else has to spend every waking hour paying attention to it and actually making some sort of viable content at the same time.



it's almost like it's a job and you have to work hard at it and be good at it in order to make money. 

jobs are a bitch.


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## Avedas (Mar 29, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> it's almost like it's a job and you have to work hard at it and be good at it in order to make money.
> 
> jobs are a bitch.


Meh. At least I get insurance and paid vacations at my job. Plus I can shitpost on the internet and still get paid for it. In that way I'm actually well on my way to being an Instagram star.


----------



## prlgmnr (Mar 29, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> If being a contrarian edgelord on an internet forum for guitar nerds is what passes off as humor and jokes nowadays then Misha definitely chose the wrong career because the bar for being a comedian seems to be getting lower and lower every day.



First they came for the contrarians and I didn't speak out because hey wait where are you taking me.


----------



## Albake21 (Mar 29, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Meh. At least I get insurance and paid vacations at my job. Plus I can shitpost on the internet and still get paid for it. In that way I'm actually well on my way to being an Instagram star.


This in every way haha.


----------



## Ebony (Mar 29, 2018)

Avedas said:


> uber hot Californian socialite girl







Avedas said:


> everyone else


----------



## wannabguitarist (Mar 29, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Meh. At least I get insurance and paid vacations at my job. Plus I can shitpost on the internet and still get paid for it. In that way I'm actually well on my way to being an Instagram star.



If we actually worked at our jobs instead of shit posting maybe we'd be successful too


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 29, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> If we actually worked at our jobs instead of shit posting maybe we'd be successful too



..nah.
I'd rather gossip on a guitar forum about our collective favorite world-touring band.


----------



## Albake21 (Mar 29, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> If we actually worked at our jobs instead of shit posting maybe we'd be successful too


Why not do both? I feel like I do a pretty solid job haha.


----------



## sakeido (Mar 29, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> If we actually worked at our jobs instead of shit posting maybe we'd be successful too



my work/life balance is fantastic and I make sick money, I won't change a thing


----------



## wannabguitarist (Mar 29, 2018)

sakeido said:


> my work/life balance is fantastic and *I make sick money*, I won't change a thing



Someone has to feed that RX7


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2018)

Avedas said:


> The social media game is a wash unless you're an uber hot Californian socialite girl living off daddy's gigantic salary because everyone else has to spend every waking hour paying attention to it and actually making some sort of viable content at the same time.


^ ACCURATE. 



Zalbu said:


> Misha definitely chose the wrong career


^ ACCURATE.


----------



## InHiding (Mar 30, 2018)

Sometimes is might not be such a bad idea trying to reach a bigger crowd. Nothing wrong with writing a few more accessible songs (and some popular accessible songs are actually quite complicated musically, in a way; it's, for example, about bridging interesting things together successfully). 

Let's take Bark at the Moon by Ozzy (Jake E Lee). It's very rare to come up with something like that, it takes real talent. Maybe you guys could do it. Scarlet is pretty amazing in that department actually. It's just that the vocals aren't there. That's the biggest problem with Periphery IMO. They would need a vocalist with a strong unique voice to be bigger. Not meant to offend, that's just the way I see it. Maybe a bit less of chugging the low strings also?

I'm not sure what the point of this post was...


----------



## prlgmnr (Mar 30, 2018)

InHiding said:


> Maybe a bit less of chugging the low strings also?


This is like when I ask my mum for feedback on my songs.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Mar 30, 2018)

InHiding said:


> Sometimes is might not be such a bad idea trying to reach a bigger crowd. Nothing wrong with writing a few more accessible songs (and some popular accessible songs are actually quite complicated musically, in a way; it's, for example, about bridging interesting things together successfully).
> 
> Let's take Bark at the Moon by Ozzy (Jake E Lee). It's very rare to come up with something like that, it takes real talent. Maybe you guys could do it. Scarlet is pretty amazing in that department actually. It's just that the vocals aren't there. That's the biggest problem with Periphery IMO. They would need a vocalist with a strong unique voice to be bigger. Not meant to offend, that's just the way I see it. Maybe a bit less of chugging the low strings also?
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of this post was...



they could be the biggest touring band in the world right now and they still wouldn't make as much as money as someone with 10million youtube subscribers.


----------



## bulb (Mar 30, 2018)

InHiding said:


> Sometimes is might not be such a bad idea trying to reach a bigger crowd. Nothing wrong with writing a few more accessible songs (and some popular accessible songs are actually quite complicated musically, in a way; it's, for example, about bridging interesting things together successfully).
> 
> Let's take Bark at the Moon by Ozzy (Jake E Lee). It's very rare to come up with something like that, it takes real talent. Maybe you guys could do it. Scarlet is pretty amazing in that department actually. It's just that the vocals aren't there. That's the biggest problem with Periphery IMO. They would need a vocalist with a strong unique voice to be bigger. Not meant to offend, that's just the way I see it. Maybe a bit less of chugging the low strings also?
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of this post was...



What you are talking about is what a lot of people refer to as "selling out".

You may not realize this, but almost every band that has an opportunity to do this gets pressured into doing it, and 99/100 times it backfires horribly and sometimes can even ruin the band. 1/100 times you get a successful crossover to a larger fan base. 

Either way this was never the reason any of us wanted to make music, so when we got pressured into that stuff we said no, and I'm incredibly happy that we did too. I want to be proud of the music I make, and I want to enjoy the process, even in this climate where it's tough to make money as a band.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 30, 2018)

bulb said:


> What you are talking about is what a lot of people refer to as "selling out".
> 
> You may not realize this, but almost every band that has an opportunity to do this gets pressured into doing it, and 99/100 times it backfires horribly and sometimes can even ruin the band. 1/100 times you get a successful crossover to a larger fan base.
> 
> Either way this was never the reason any of us wanted to make music, so when we got pressured into that stuff we said no, and I'm incredibly happy that we did too. I want to be proud of the music I make, and I want to enjoy the process, even in this climate where it's tough to make money as a band.



So....in other words....



bulb said:


> Just have fun with it


----------



## Albake21 (Mar 30, 2018)

bulb said:


> What you are talking about is what a lot of people refer to as "selling out".
> 
> You may not realize this, but almost every band that has an opportunity to do this gets pressured into doing it, and 99/100 times it backfires horribly and sometimes can even ruin the band. 1/100 times you get a successful crossover to a larger fan base.
> 
> Either way this was never the reason any of us wanted to make music, so when we got pressured into that stuff we said no, and I'm incredibly happy that we did too. I want to be proud of the music I make, and I want to enjoy the process, even in this climate where it's tough to make money as a band.


Well said, that is why I look forward to hearing P4. The recent sound clips definitely have me excited.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 30, 2018)

It's better to fail on your own terms than to succeed on someone else's.

This is an industry that is forever deeming to define its laborers (the musicians) into something that will result in financial success only for the shareholders. You have to know who you are before coming into this business, and forever fight with vigilance to retain your own identity, because it is always true that when you allow someone else to define you, you will not be pleased with those results.

Be who you are, everyone else is taken already anyway.


----------



## InHiding (Mar 30, 2018)

I don't personally see this as such a black and white situation. I guess it's a bit hard for me to relate. I write songs for my own enjoyment but they are all very different from each other (basically from something like At the Gates all the way to mellow Buckethead style ballads). I simply could not stay within one genre or style. It's too limiting for me. 

In some way someone's selling out is something altogether different for me. I guess I could even change my style even if requested (but not all the time). I like very different approaches. Each to his own I guess. This is probably also the reason why I could never stay in any bands. I never understood that mentality of limiting yourself. This post might be a bit harsh again, but wasn't really meant to. I just need to sleep.


----------



## budda (Mar 30, 2018)

InHiding said:


> I don't personally see this as such a black and white situation. I guess it's a bit hard for me to relate. I write songs for my own enjoyment but they are all very different from each other (basically from something like At the Gates all the way to mellow Buckethead style ballads). I simply could not stay within one genre or style. It's too limiting for me.
> 
> In some way someone's selling out is something altogether different for me. I guess I could even change my style even if requested (but not all the time). I like very different approaches. Each to his own I guess. This is probably also the reason why I could never stay in any bands. I never understood that mentality of limiting yourself. This post might be a bit harsh again, but wasn't really meant to. I just need to sleep.



Sounds like you'd do well in a weird al or reel big fish cover band  (both acts cover a *lot* of ground)


----------



## spudmunkey (Mar 30, 2018)

This "limiting" factor is a big reason so many big-time artists, after a few albums, want to do side projects (not necessarily solo projects, which sometimes just seem like vanity projects). For example, Maynard has a particular vision for what sort of music Tool would put out, even if it evolves over time...but then he's also got Puscifer. A Perfect Circle seemed a bit odd as it sounds a lot like Tool sometimes, but it's with a different group of collaborators, which on its own can be liberating in different ways.


----------



## Zalbu (Mar 30, 2018)

I realize Devin Townsend is the exception to the norm but that dude says he wants to make "heavy Enya" and he's managed to find about as much success as a prog metal artist can find nowadays. His output ranges from Strapping Young Lad to ambient, new age music and he's still managed to build a reasonably sized but dedicated fanbase. The neat thing about an artist having such a varied output is that fans have their own favorite albums that he's made even if that's ambient music or grinding industrial metal and some people hate some of the stuff he's released because it's in a genre they'd never listen to, but they still respect his creative vision. It's the same artist that's creating the music. I doubt Dev would be as successful as he is if all his material was in the style of something like Seventh Wave and Accelerated Evolution.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 30, 2018)

Dev is also, constantly working, constantly putting something out of some sort, so he always has fresh product available. He's making a decent living doing what he loves, but he ain't rich and there isn't a whole lot of down time.

I have some local friends here in the Seattle area that have been favored since the early 80's and their 2nd guitar player makes less as a guitar player & as a salesman at a local Harley Dealership than I do as a Contact Center Consultant in a local call center. I make about $20/hr & have a mortgage payment of around $1-1.5K & I couldn't afford to go on tour & sustain myself on his income.


----------



## lewis (Mar 31, 2018)

i mean, am I the only one who literally does not care about this revelation? (the original post)

It does not deter me from wanting to share my music and live experiences with people (i.e gig/tour)

everyone does it for a hobby to start with anyway right?.
only complete dickheads say "I want to be in a rock band to be famous, get the girls and become a millionaire" imo


----------



## NateFalcon (Mar 31, 2018)

It’s all about generating interest...it’s a bandwagon thread so any exposure is good exposure. Surely a few reading this will go listen to an album or two and maybe buy some T-shirts or sig gear...


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Mar 31, 2018)

lewis said:


> everyone does it for a hobby to start with anyway right?



The thread makes more sense if you think of it as a roach motel.


----------



## fps (Apr 1, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> The thread makes more sense if you think of it as a roach motel.



But only think of it that way as a last resort.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Apr 1, 2018)

bulb said:


> Is it genuinely that unfathomable that I actually worked for what I have?



Quite hard to believe, yes.

I find it very hard to believe that GGD and Horizon Devices are profitable enough to provide income of $100,000's/yr



diagrammatiks said:


> 20 pages...
> it's always interesting to see what people splerge out.
> 
> none of the last 3 cars Misha bought were current model years. also there's the concept of the trade-in. It's not like he bought 3 cars.
> ...



Buying a Ferrari with $200k you saved up is unbelievably dumb, haha. You should be earning a comfortable 6 figures to justify that sort of expense.

And fwiw, it's not just the watches. It's the expensive watch collection, the massive amount of audio gear (it can't ALL be free)



TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Dev is also, constantly working, constantly putting something out of some sort, so he always has fresh product available. He's making a decent living doing what he loves, but he ain't rich and there isn't a whole lot of down time.



Dev said that he made only about $100k last year


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 1, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Buying a Ferrari with $200k you saved up is unbelievably dumb, haha. You should be earning a comfortable 6 figures to justify that sort of expense.
> 
> And fwiw, it's not just the watches. It's the expensive watch collection, the massive amount of audio gear (it can't ALL be free)



Let’s just say that handing a free Periphery hat across a desk can open a lot of doors.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Apr 1, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Quite hard to believe, yes.
> 
> I find it very hard to believe that GGD and Horizon Devices are profitable enough to provide income of $100,000's/yr
> 
> ...



you don't buy a 200k car with cash man. that's not how that works.

plus like a little bit of reading comprehension helps too right...
the whole point has been that the band itself doesn't make that much money. Let's say you tour all year and make 30-60k. that's not very good. 

Misha's entire point is that you can still make a lot of money with music but you have to do all this other shit that you didn't need to do before.

I have no trouble believing he clears 6 figures with periphery, endorsements, clinics, and other music related ventures.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Apr 1, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> you don't buy a 200k car with cash man. that's not how that works.



I understand leasing, but the guy I replied to mentioned "saving up $200k" to buy it.

Edit: it was you. You said "can save up $200k to buy a few cars"


----------



## diagrammatiks (Apr 1, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> I understand leasing, but the guy I replied to mentioned "saving up $200k" to buy it.
> 
> Edit: it was you. You said "can save up $200k to buy a few cars"



also possible to do. not the best plan and nobody does it. but you can do it.

also like I guess my bad for spelling out that that's not exactly how people buy cars.

I mean you have to save it all up eventually. that seems obvious right.


----------



## lewis (Apr 1, 2018)

the talent pool is so so saturated now. Like people are amazing musicians now and that standard gets better every year. Im solid and reliable but I sit in absolute awe of most videos of players online now. I love knowing the standard of musicians is just going up.
Therefore just going on tour and expecting huge bucks regularly comes across as quite entitled to me now.
There will be millions of dudes who are absolutely mind blowingly talented and yet sit in their house never playing live and never getting a penny for that talent. Why should someone who is a much worse talent, hit the road and get loads of cash just because?

i am completely against greedy venues/promoters but thats for another more in depth argument.

to me, just play live and have fun with your fans. The gear investment argument is mostly garbage too because we would all want the equipment we have whether we were gigging or not.


----------



## bulb (Apr 1, 2018)

lewis said:


> the talent pool is so so saturated now. Like people are amazing musicians now and that standard gets better every year. Im solid and reliable but I sit in absolute awe of most videos of players online now. I love knowing the standard of musicians is just going up.
> Therefore just going on tour and expecting huge bucks regularly comes across as quite entitled to me now.
> There will be millions of dudes who are absolutely mind blowingly talented and yet sit in their house never playing live and never getting a penny for that talent. Why should someone who is a much worse talent, hit the road and get loads of cash just because?
> 
> ...


just have fun with it!


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 1, 2018)

bulb said:


> just have fun with it!


----------



## Ziricote (Apr 1, 2018)

These bands should not be headlining the small venues with 500 capacity. They need to be the support for larger established older bands. That is the money! But they all want to play shitty little clubs and wonder why they dont make the money. You build the audiences by starting with the bands already established and tour with them only! Come on guys!


----------



## Cynicanal (Apr 1, 2018)

The problem is they have to offer something to the big bands to get them to take them along. You're not going to tour with a Metallica or an A7X or whatever unless you're already a big, established name, and those are the only guys playing the venues that hold more than about 500 people.


----------



## Ziricote (Apr 1, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> The problem is they have to offer something to the big bands to get them to take them along. You're not going to tour with a Metallica or an A7X or whatever unless you're already a big, established name, and those are the only guys playing the venues that hold more than about 500 people.



Then shame on the big bands for not bringing on the new guys who are actually good bands. I think its all in the connection. You need the real manager, not your best friend or your brother who you turst, but a real company with the experience in connecting you on the right level. These bands in the today truly have no clue that this can be the big time and they have to hold themself to the higher standard and only deal with the real people, not the people with no experience. You never make your friend the booking agent or the promoter. You get the professional if you want a chance. You cannot do everything yourself to save the dollar now but ruin the chance for later. Go for the gold dont settle the silver. Hold yourself higher and you will make the more money


----------



## budda (Apr 1, 2018)

Your assumption that a manager or booking agent won't screw you is comical .

I can't tell ziricote is being sarcastic or not .

Lewis, you wanna move to Toronto and play bass?


----------



## ArtDecade (Apr 1, 2018)

If Periphery was opening for Maiden, I'm showing up late.


----------



## Avedas (Apr 1, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> These bands should not be headlining the small venues with 500 capacity. They need to be the support for larger established older bands. That is the money! But they all want to play shitty little clubs and wonder why they dont make the money. You build the audiences by starting with the bands already established and tour with them only! Come on guys!


lmao


----------



## USMarine75 (Apr 1, 2018)

What I learned from this thread... Misha = Francis Underwood.


----------



## lurè (Apr 2, 2018)

This is slowly becoming the unpopular opinion thread


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 2, 2018)

lurè said:


> This is slowly becoming the unpopular opinion thread


Just have fun with it.


----------



## fps (Apr 2, 2018)

lewis said:


> the talent pool is so so saturated now. Like people are amazing musicians now and that standard gets better every year. Im solid and reliable but I sit in absolute awe of most videos of players online now. I love knowing the standard of musicians is just going up.
> Therefore just going on tour and expecting huge bucks regularly comes across as quite entitled to me now.



Also, the attention in musical terms is elsewhere now.


----------



## InHiding (Apr 2, 2018)

Players are getting better technically but that's it. 99.99% of new songs suck like they always have.


----------



## feraledge (Apr 2, 2018)

Since keeping our thread universe separate doesn't seem to matter as much here, this lingering question about endorsement deal payoffs has me wondering why anyone with a sig guitar would jump ship to Kiesel land. I suspect @bulb probably has a good bit of background on a lot of that, but isn't likely to share any of it (reasonably so). But since sig gear apparently really can pay off, I'd love to hear, even in speculative terms, why the trend has been artists with sigs (especially sigs in production) would so easily drop that just for a couple semi-customs?


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm sure Misha's royalty is nothing like Steve Vai's, if Misha gets one at all.

When I was endorsed by ADA Amplification back in the mid 90's, my endorsement deal wasn't for free gear, but it was a nice deal in that I paid less for gear direct from ADA than Guitar Center did, which has the highest mark for dealers. I also had access to purchase "one-off" gear that didn't hit market, like the stack of ADA 4x12 ($50/cab, $50/Celestion Speaker) cabs that I ended up with, or a customer slant horizontal 2x12 cab ($50). I also got to beta test and provide some creative input on the MP2, Microcab, and Rocket amp series, the latter of which didn't really see the light of day before they went belly up.


----------



## spudmunkey (Apr 2, 2018)

feraledge said:


> Since keeping our thread universe separate doesn't seem to matter as much here, this lingering question about endorsement deal payoffs has me wondering why anyone with a sig guitar would jump ship to Kiesel land. I suspect @bulb probably has a good bit of background on a lot of that, but isn't likely to share any of it (reasonably so). But since sig gear apparently really can pay off, I'd love to hear, even in speculative terms, why the trend has been artists with sigs (especially sigs in production) would so easily drop that just for a couple semi-customs?



For some, I imagine it's just as simple as, "I really like these guitars...might as well get some perks as long as I plan on getting a couple anyways."


----------



## feraledge (Apr 2, 2018)

@spudmunkey @TonyFlyingSquirrel I'm speaking solely about signature gear, not endorsements. Any sig that didn't have royalties attached would be a horrible deal.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Apr 2, 2018)

Gotcha.


----------



## bulb (Apr 2, 2018)

the sig deals add up, all the little things add up to be something substantial

Diversify! (Or just have fun with it!)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 2, 2018)

bulb said:


> the sig deals add up, all the little things add up to be something substantial
> 
> Diversify! (Or just have fun with it!)


If you keep saying it, Periphery IV - Just Have Fun With It! is going to be the title of the new album, and the first single will be "Diversify! (Your Portfolio)".


----------



## feraledge (Apr 2, 2018)

Djiversify: Cast your net wide and keep your gate high.


----------



## Flemmigan (Apr 2, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If you keep saying it, Periphery IV - Just Have Fun With It! is going to be the title of the new album, and the first single will be "Diversify! (Your Portfolio)".


----------



## Lemonbaby (Apr 3, 2018)

sakeido said:


> my work/life balance is fantastic and I make sick money, I won't change a thing


Maybe we should change the thread title to "I [sakeido] make sick money"... 




Flappydoodle said:


> Quite hard to believe, yes.
> 
> I find it very hard to believe that GGD and Horizon Devices are profitable enough to provide income of $100,000's/yr


Who was talking about "100s of 1000s per year"?


----------



## Flappydoodle (Apr 3, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> Maybe we should change the thread title to "I [sakeido] make sick money"...
> 
> 
> 
> Who was talking about "100s of 1000s per year"?



Who else buys Ferraris and Audi R8s? And has a watch collection.

If you earn less than $300k/yr and you buy/lease a Ferrari, you're absolutely insane IMO


----------



## InHiding (Apr 3, 2018)

You only live once!


----------



## Lemonbaby (Apr 3, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Who else buys Ferraris and Audi R8s? And has a watch collection.


I don't have a Facebook/Twitter/Instagram account or whatever young people are using these days, so I honestly don't have the slightest idea about what cars or watches anyone owns. However, I don find it "hard to believe" at all that people who work their ass off can be rewarded for it. What's so suspicious about this concept?


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 3, 2018)

The thread title.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Apr 3, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Who else buys Ferraris and Audi R8s? And has a watch collection.
> 
> If you earn less than $300k/yr and you buy/lease a Ferrari, you're absolutely insane IMO



just have fun with it.

admittedly, everyone I know with cars in that price range have a least a million in assets and I'd personally never spend more then 10 percent of my liquidity on a car.

that being said...I don't think 300k is out of reach with all of Misha's other ventures.

his horizon business partner is worth several million. 

https://www.meetup.com/Internet-Masterminds/events/218646109/?_cookie-check=EAaPywl04J1uOt1G


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## ikarus (Apr 3, 2018)

> How Mehtab raised the value of products by over 250% in 2 months using cost-effective, scalable, guerilla tactics



Is this the correct term for flipping guitars?


----------



## Eptaceros (Apr 3, 2018)




----------



## QuantumCybin (Apr 3, 2018)

ITT:


----------



## bulb (Apr 3, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> ITT:



Hahahah


----------



## ArtDecade (Apr 3, 2018)




----------



## prlgmnr (Apr 3, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> ITT:




Mark 9:50


----------



## Flemmigan (Apr 3, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If you keep saying it, Periphery IV - Just Have Fun With It! is going to be the title of the new album, and the first single will be "Diversify! (Your Portfolio)".








Not sure why my last post got garbled.
Just wanted to make sure everyone remembers Wu Tang Financial ain't nothin' to fuck wit...


----------



## ArtDecade (Apr 3, 2018)

^ The best part? It is still garbled on my end.


----------



## Flemmigan (Apr 3, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> ^ The best part? It is still garbled on my end.


Awesome. Lol
https://imgur.com/iQBXAYh
Last time I try to reference a 15 year old Chappelle's Show skit...
Nah, who am I kidding. It definitely isn't.


----------



## Albake21 (Apr 3, 2018)

Flemmigan said:


> Awesome. Lol
> https://imgur.com/iQBXAYh
> Last time I try to reference a 15 year old Chappelle's Show skit...
> Nah, who am I kidding. It definitely isn't.


15 years old.... whoa now that's weird to hear.


----------



## wat (Apr 3, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> ITT:






This


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 3, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Periphery IV - Just Have Fun With It!


YOU BEAT ME TO IT! 



ikarus said:


> Is this the correct term for flipping guitars?


Man, that guy was (and still is) such a total scumbag who has all of these starry-eyed guitarist kids fooled.


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 3, 2018)

You guys are ignorant to the watch thing...save for a spendy watch and people will fight to kiss your ass...

Take notes...5k is cheap AF for a watch...that will get you a Breitling...and only get you mediocre bitches and a front-engine car- if you want smokin’ bitches and a rear-engine supercar, slap on a Rolex...doors will open


----------



## Avedas (Apr 3, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> You guys are ignorant to the watch thing...save for a spendy watch and people will fight to kiss your ass...
> 
> Take notes...5k is cheap AF for a watch...that will get you a Breitling...and only get you mediocre bitches and a front-engine car- if you want smokin’ bitches and a rear-engine supercar, slap on a Rolex...doors will open


At least with a watch you can buy one from China and nobody will tell the difference. Or pay a Filipino guy to get one that fell off a truck for you.


----------



## bulb (Apr 3, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> You guys are ignorant to the watch thing...save for a spendy watch and people will fight to kiss your ass...
> 
> Take notes...5k is cheap AF for a watch...that will get you a Breitling...and only get you mediocre bitches and a front-engine car- if you want smokin’ bitches and a rear-engine supercar, slap on a Rolex...doors will open



Damn dude that's crazy, 5k is a lot of money to spend on a watch, congrats on your success!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 4, 2018)

bulb said:


> Damn dude that's crazy, 5k is a lot of money to spend on a watch, congrats on your success!


Don't worry Bulbous. just have funzies with it!


----------



## ramses (Apr 4, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> [...] I don find it "hard to believe" at all that people who work their ass off can be rewarded for it. What's so suspicious about this concept?



+1


----------



## narad (Apr 4, 2018)

InHiding said:


> Scarlet is pretty amazing in that department actually. It's just that the vocals aren't there. That's the biggest problem with Periphery IMO. They would need a vocalist with a strong unique voice to be bigger


----------



## bulb (Apr 4, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Don't worry Bulbous. just have funzies with it!


I do! I really enjoy my life and I have been lucky enough to cross a lot of items off of my bucket list, it's been the result of hard work but always geared in areas I'm passionate about so it doesn't always feel like work for me haha. As a result I really do think the key is to have fun with it either way!


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 4, 2018)

bulb said:


> Damn dude that's crazy, 5k is a lot of money to spend on a watch, congrats on your success!





bulb said:


> Damn dude that's crazy, 5k is a lot of money to spend on a watch, congrats on your success!


...I wish...I only know because I work for a guy that won’t shut up about Rolex’s...and your (apparently) watches seem to be the haters hot button


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 4, 2018)

bulb said:


> Damn dude that's crazy, 5k is a lot of money to spend on a watch, congrats on your success!


...I wish...I only know because I work for a guy that won’t shut up about Rolex’s...and your (apparently) watches seem to be the haters hot button


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 4, 2018)

Thanks for the awesome new slogan...my business partner fell a few feet off a ladder today- I told him “Just have fun with it!” as he was walking it off


----------



## bulb (Apr 4, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> ...I wish...I only know because I work for a guy that won’t shut up about Rolex’s...and your (apparently) watches seem to be the haters hot button


I really dig the Daytona I just don't know if I can justify spending that much on a watch haha, but I definitely don't hate on Rolexes.


----------



## Lemonbaby (Apr 4, 2018)

bulb said:


> I really dig the Daytona I just don't know if I can justify spending that much on a watch haha, but I definitely don't hate on Rolexes.


If you keep it in good condition, you can usually sell a Daytona for more than you paid when you got it. Only problem: the wait list (for regular people) is about two years, same for the new steel Pepsi...


----------



## bulb (Apr 4, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> If you keep it in good condition, you can usually sell a Daytona for more than you paid when you got it. Only problem: the wait list (for regular people) is about two years, same for the new steel Pepsi...


Yeah the wait list is too long, though the investment angle is actual solid with certain Rolex/Patek watches.


----------



## prlgmnr (Apr 4, 2018)

Any chance of a crossover product? Tonewatches?


----------



## Fathand (Apr 4, 2018)

You can't have fun with IT. Usually dealing with it is a drag, either at home while trying to record or at work trying to get that d*** thing (whatever it is) working.

I also realized a while ago that my watch taste is from the 80's, they all still run on batteries.


----------



## TedEH (Apr 4, 2018)

Fathand said:


> You can't have fun with IT.


Have you tried turning it off and on again?


----------



## Albake21 (Apr 4, 2018)

Fathand said:


> You can't have fun with IT. Usually dealing with it is a drag, either at home while trying to record or at work trying to get that d*** thing (whatever it is) working.
> 
> I also realized a while ago that my watch taste is from the 80's, they all still run on batteries.


You absolutely can, it just all depends on where you work. For me I get to work at a post production studio in Chicago. It's so laid back that I get to play ping pong every day and drink on the job. Nerf battles are the norm, and every Friday we get usually a home made meal (which is fucking amazing) or order in. We also have a Stella machine in our kitchen area. Because of this, IT is fun.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Apr 4, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> I don't have a Facebook/Twitter/Instagram account or whatever young people are using these days, so I honestly don't have the slightest idea about what cars or watches anyone owns. However, I don find it "hard to believe" at all that people who work their ass off can be rewarded for it. What's so suspicious about this concept?



The suspicion isn't relating to the concept of working hard and making money. Nobody is questioning that.

The suspicion is the thread title, combined with the realities of making enough money from touring, streaming, merchandise, endorsements etc to buy Ferraris.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Apr 4, 2018)

it's good to be a little skeptical of things I guess.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Apr 4, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> You guys are ignorant to the watch thing...save for a spendy watch and people will fight to kiss your ass...
> 
> Take notes...5k is cheap AF for a watch...that will get you a Breitling...and only get you mediocre bitches and a front-engine car- if you want smokin’ bitches and a rear-engine supercar, slap on a Rolex...doors will open



What's wrong with Movado?


----------



## sakeido (Apr 4, 2018)

Uncreative123 said:


> What's wrong with Movado?



nothing, they are great watches

nobody gives a fuck about watches anymore. I wear em cuz they are pretty, but I'm never going to pretend like my watch isn't utterly useless. The people acting like a Rolex still matters have got issues


----------



## ArtDecade (Apr 4, 2018)

I have a Rolex and people still treat me like an asshole. People know what I am regardless of the watch.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 4, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> I have a Rolex and people still treat me like an asshole. People know what I am regardless of the watch.



Has real Rolex, considered an asshole. That seems pretty natural.


----------



## narad (Apr 4, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> You absolutely can, it just all depends on where you work. For me I get to work at a post production studio in Chicago. It's so laid back that I get to play ping pong every day and drink on the job. Nerf battles are the norm, and every Friday we get usually a home made meal (which is fucking amazing) or order in. We also have a Stella machine in our kitchen area. Because of this, IT is fun.



Why are nerf battles the de facto "we're a fun company" example? Seems anachronistic ... Our company's so fun...there's TVs on with "Dora the Explorer" on, there's a ball pit, and we drink our drinks through crazy straws!

Stella machine sounds pretty awesome though.


----------



## Albake21 (Apr 4, 2018)

narad said:


> Why are nerf battles the de facto "we're a fun company" example? Seems anachronistic ... Our company's so fun...there's TVs on with "Dora the Explorer" on, there's a ball pit, and we drink our drinks through crazy straws!
> 
> Stella machine sounds pretty awesome though.


It's not, it's just the fact that it makes it a relaxing place to work at. A non corporate, I don't hate my job, kind of atmosphere. Would you rather work for a corporate office with terrible benefits, no one in a good mood, dress code, cubicles, etc. or would you rather work in a now laid back office with beer, a ping pong table, and some Nerf guns shooting around?


----------



## narad (Apr 4, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> It's not, it's just the fact that it makes it a relaxing place to work at. A non corporate, I don't hate my job, kind of atmosphere. Would you rather work for a corporate office with terrible benefits, no one in a good mood, dress code, cubicles, etc. or would you rather work in a now laid back office with beer, a ping pong table, and some Nerf guns shooting around?



Well I mean, it's a broader comment than just a reply to your post. I feel like every startup is like, oh yea, we have nerf gun battles, it's a blast. It's about as ubiquitous in the outward-appearance of "laid back offices" as a photo of a white, black, indian, an asian mix of guys and girls having a picnic together is on college brochures. It's become a trope, basically.


----------



## bostjan (Apr 4, 2018)

I want a watch with a built in noise gate. Maybe a built in nerf gun, too.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Apr 4, 2018)

bostjan said:


> I want a watch with a built in noise gate. Maybe a built in nerf gun, too.



To remove spurious time? I'm in.


----------



## ArtDecade (Apr 4, 2018)

^ Sounds like something a Swatch could hook you up with. In all different colours.


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 4, 2018)

bling envy...the struggle is real


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 4, 2018)

fricking dblpst...aarg


----------



## bulb (Apr 4, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> bling envy...the struggle is real


Definitely a lot of that in this thread.

My advice: If you are gonna have bling envy, just have fun with it!


----------



## NateFalcon (Apr 4, 2018)

You really need to throw that quote in the next album...somewhere


----------



## Fathand (Apr 5, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> You absolutely can, it just all depends on where you work. For me I get to work at a post production studio in Chicago. It's so laid back that I get to play ping pong every day and drink on the job. Nerf battles are the norm, and every Friday we get usually a home made meal (which is fucking amazing) or order in. We also have a Stella machine in our kitchen area. Because of this, IT is fun.



I actually don't work in IT, I work with IT - and I'll admit that that comment was a bit tongue in the cheek and/or classic b****ing about how the IT department works. In the firm I currently work with the IT works pretty well (and fast). 



Albake21 said:


> It's not, it's just the fact that it makes it a relaxing place to work at. A non corporate, I don't hate my job, kind of atmosphere. Would you rather work for a corporate office with terrible benefits, no one in a good mood, dress code, cubicles, etc. or would you rather work in a now laid back office with beer, a ping pong table, and some Nerf guns shooting around?



I work in a corporate office with nice benefits, everyone in a good mood, dress code is casual on average days and the cubicles are pretty spacey. Everything is not so black and white, luckily. I would appreciate the beer, though.


----------



## feraledge (Apr 5, 2018)

narad said:


> Well I mean, it's a broader comment than just a reply to your post. I feel like every startup is like, oh yea, we have nerf gun battles, it's a blast. It's about as ubiquitous in the outward-appearance of "laid back offices" as a photo of a white, black, indian, an asian mix of guys and girls having a picnic together is on college brochures. It's become a trope, basically.


+1000
A local food company I ran got bought out by a company of young millennial douche bags that had the whole tech start up vibe: standing desks, kombucha on tap, office chef, open floor plan, "hang out wherever" kind of shit... They were the ultimate in corporate assholes, no one there lasted longer than 6 months and they constantly bought potential competitors up and then liquidated their staff. The whole appearance was a shit show to cover for the fact that they had millions in start up cash that they were burning through until they could make the company's sales look good enough that someone else would buy them and do the same thing. Hasn't happened yet, unlikely to happen. But Silicon Valley nails these types.
Since we're way off topic already, I'll just say that it's a local food company who wanted to reinvent the CSA. The owners had no idea what they were doing at all and it was obvious walking in there. But the founder always told his "rags to riches" story by saying he started the business out of his parent's measly garage selling boxes to his parent's friends....
The house alone was 8000 square feet! Ha.

I've worked elsewhere that sold its relaxed environment, worst and hardest jobs I ever had in my life. I was effectively always working and meant to take all business stress as my own. Glad I quit, but was there long enough for their corporate restructuring, which meant shelving the air hockey (to say the least). Took some years off my life though for sure.

But back on topic: did not have fun with it.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 5, 2018)

Just have concision with it!


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## TedEH (Apr 5, 2018)

I think there's value to some of that "laid back office" attitude, to a point. It probably vastly depends on the kind of work you're doing. In places like call centers or high-turnaround jobs, lots of people who are basically just number/bodies for the company to churn through, it clearly wouldn't work. Or cases where you need to be customer facing or uphold a certain standard of your image. You need a layer of discipline on top of it though in order for it to work. The office I'm at is super laid back by some standards, as in we have the random toys and decorations and nerf guns and things if we want them, there's beer in the fridge, some of us have standing desks, I sit at my desk with death metal shirts on and my hair down, headphones all day if I want, nobody micromanages our days or decides when we take breaks or things like that, etc. But we're also the kind of office where you're here as part of your career, not so much to just be a number, and a lot of the work is results- and deadline- based. We can get away with this kind of stuff because we here to do work first, and everything else serves that. The more uptight kind of style wouldn't work here cause we'd be too stressed out all the time, I think. This industry has a reputation for burning out it's workers.

...he says this, while at his desk surfing guitar forums instead of working.


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## Albake21 (Apr 5, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I think there's value to some of that "laid back office" attitude, to a point. It probably vastly depends on the kind of work you're doing. In places like call centers or high-turnaround jobs, lots of people who are basically just number/bodies for the company to churn through, it clearly wouldn't work. Or cases where you need to be customer facing or uphold a certain standard of your image. You need a layer of discipline on top of it though in order for it to work. The office I'm at is super laid back by some standards, as in we have the random toys and decorations and nerf guns and things if we want them, there's beer in the fridge, some of us have standing desks, I sit at my desk with death metal shirts on and my hair down, headphones all day if I want, nobody micromanages our days or decides when we take breaks or things like that, etc. But we're also the kind of office where you're here as part of your career, not so much to just be a number, and a lot of the work is results- and deadline- based. We can get away with this kind of stuff because we here to do work first, and everything else serves that. The more uptight kind of style wouldn't work here cause we'd be too stressed out all the time, I think. This industry has a reputation for burning out it's workers.
> 
> ...he says this, while at his desk surfing guitar forums instead of working.


Yup this is exactly how it is at my workplace. The thing is workplace is studio rather than an office. A corporate style wouldn't work in a post production studio like the one I work at. It needs to be creative and laid back. But even though I said what I said about the office, work still comes first. It's also not like this shit every hour of the day. I feel like some guys here took what I said WAY to literally. Either that or some are jealous


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## TedEH (Apr 5, 2018)

I think I'm lucky enough to have found my way to just have fun with it.
Good job, low rent, and no kids = usually have enough throw away money to fund all the video games and music gear that I have time for, so I don't need music to be a source of income. I treat those things as the money pits that they are. I'm not rich by any stretch, but I think I serve as a decent example of how success can be a matter of living within your means, and doing what you have to do to facilitate what you want to do.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 5, 2018)




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## Lemonbaby (Apr 5, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I think there's value to some of that "laid back office" attitude, to a point. [...]


I have a home office which obviously looks very laid back from far enough. Results are what counts in my company and as long as I deliver, I'm a happy camper and no one bothers me too much...


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## bulb (Apr 5, 2018)

i love all cars forever because i just have fun with them


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## Albake21 (Apr 5, 2018)

bulb said:


> i love all cars forever because i just have fun with them


Wrong thread/car thread?


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## Ziricote (Apr 5, 2018)

3/5 of band need to have long hair and be rockstar and put on a show. Image is everything. Bands today want to look like they have an office job on stage. be the act that people want to see, and of course the music must be amazing too


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## bulb (Apr 5, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> 3/5 of band need to have long hair and be rockstar and put on a show. Image is everything. Bands today want to look like they have an office job on stage. be the act that people want to see, and of course the music must be amazing too



please continue posting these tips, i am just having fun with reading them!


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## lurè (Apr 5, 2018)

alopecia has ruined music


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## Metropolis (Apr 5, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> 3/5 of band need to have long hair and be rockstar and put on a show. Image is everything. Bands today want to look like they have an office job on stage. be the act that people want to see, and of course the music must be amazing too



Damn, we only have 2 out of 5 in our band... but do you go for live shows to see what kind of hair they have? I hope this is sarcasm from both sides, but as said, just have fun with it


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## ArtDecade (Apr 5, 2018)

bulb said:


> please continue posting these tips, i am just having fun with reading them!



Wish you would stop reading them and *do* them.


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## QuantumCybin (Apr 5, 2018)

I’m able to keep my meats preserved all winter with the salt in this thread.


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## lurè (Apr 5, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> ’m able to keep my meats preserved all winter with the salt in this thread.


I guess this is the fate for every thread about Periphery


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## NateFalcon (Apr 5, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> 3/5 of band need to have long hair and be rockstar and put on a show. Image is everything. Bands today want to look like they have an office job on stage. be the act that people want to see, and of course the music must be amazing too


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## NateFalcon (Apr 5, 2018)

Growing your hair out takes a while, Satchel could loan you a wig though...


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## ArtDecade (Apr 5, 2018)

Maybe take a lesson or two from Satchel as well.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 5, 2018)

lurè said:


> alopecia has ruined music


Alopecia, eh? Just have hair with it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 5, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> I’m able to keep my meats preserved all winter with the salt in this thread.


Just have popcorn with it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 5, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> View attachment 60221


No offense Bulbous, but Snatchel has you on the wig/hair/chops department. Glad you're just having fun with it though.


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## NateFalcon (Apr 5, 2018)

He’s also got you in the midlife crisis department...just have a wig with it!


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## NateFalcon (Apr 5, 2018)

Petrucci is gonna NEED a wig pretty soon...

Edit: nevermind, he’s got it covered...


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 5, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> He’s also got you in the midlife crisis department...just have a wig with it!


If you're having fun with it, you shoulda put a wig on it!


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## NateFalcon (Apr 5, 2018)

‘Alopecia has ruined music’...? WTF?? ...I think it’s done wonders for oral sex though...


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## Edika (Apr 6, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> ‘Alopecia has ruined music’...? WTF?? ...I think it’s done wonders for oral sex though...



Too bad it hits in the areas of the body you don't want it too but not in the areas it counts!


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## lurè (Apr 6, 2018)

More hair = more V shaped EQ
Less hair = tighter low end


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## coreysMonster (Apr 6, 2018)

I've lost complete track of wtf this thread is even about anymore.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 6, 2018)

coreysMonster said:


> I've lost complete track of wtf this thread is even about anymore.



No idea, but if it turns into a thread about Steel Panther, it should be considered a win.


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## Albake21 (Apr 6, 2018)

coreysMonster said:


> I've lost complete track of wtf this thread is even about anymore.


Well I guess that's why the thread was renamed.


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## Zalbu (Apr 6, 2018)

Now I really hope Lexxi Foxx fills in for Nolly on Periphs next tour

And man, it always blows my mind that Satchel is almost 50, he doesn't look a day older than 30


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## bulb (Apr 6, 2018)

Yess this thread title is so much better and actually reflects how I feel about music, yay!


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## TedEH (Apr 6, 2018)

I think we're certainly having fun with this thread.


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## QuantumCybin (Apr 6, 2018)

Just have salt with it


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 6, 2018)




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## Albake21 (Apr 6, 2018)

bulb said:


> Yess this thread title is so much better and actually reflects how I feel about music, yay!


Yeah but what the hell even is this thread anymore? lol


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## USMarine75 (Apr 6, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> 3/5 of band need to have long hair and be rockstar and put on a show. Image is everything. Bands today want to look like they have an office job on stage. be the act that people want to see, and of course the music must be amazing too



What about one person with 3/5th of a head of hair? Does that count?


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## bulb (Apr 6, 2018)

i vote to turn this into another thread about how much we all love cars and watches because we just have fun with it!


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Apr 6, 2018)

Did someone say “WATCH CARS”?


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## eggy in a bready (Apr 6, 2018)

i think the periphery guy is mad


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## lurè (Apr 6, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> What about one person with 3/5th of a head of hair? Does that count?


I don't know how you can "just have fun with It" with that kind of hair.
Otrageous.


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## Albake21 (Apr 6, 2018)

So basically the "Just have fun with it" sarcasm thread..... I'm down for this.


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## TedEH (Apr 6, 2018)

With hair like that, I assume "just have fun with it" is the default option, even when entirely inappropriate.


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## Eptaceros (Apr 6, 2018)

This thread was a hot pile of garbage since its inception. The original clickbait title didn't help either.


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## Albake21 (Apr 6, 2018)

Look Misha, you have to name a song on P4 "Just have fun with it" for us on SSO. Only us members would even get the reference.


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## TedEH (Apr 6, 2018)

^ +1. Sounds like a lucrative approach. If each person who posted in this thread buys a copy, that should be enough to fund a new watch.


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## TedEH (Apr 6, 2018)

So would the opposite approach be to "just have FUNDS with it?"

Get it? Cause metal makes no money?

....ok I'll leave.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Apr 6, 2018)

Just have djunt with djit.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 6, 2018)

bulb said:


> i vote to turn this into another thread about how much we all love cars and watches because we just have fun with it!



Invective watches Ferrari bedroom youtube guitarist BRJ you suck blah blah blah hey do you have any good techs in the area you recommend? I have a bunch of guitars that need some minor luthier work to get the action super low, so I can just have fun with them.


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## bulb (Apr 6, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> Invective watches Ferrari bedroom youtube guitarist BRJ you suck blah blah blah hey do you have any good techs in the area you recommend? I have a bunch of guitars that need some minor luthier work to get the action super low, so I can just have fun with them.


I actually would love to find a good tech in my area, someone I could actually trust with my nicer guitars. Right now I do my work on my guitars but I'm nowhere near what a good tech can do.


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## NateFalcon (Apr 6, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> Now I really hope Lexxi Foxx fills in for Nolly on Periphs next tour
> 
> And man, it always blows my mind that Satchel is almost 50, he doesn't look a day older than 30


He doesn’t act a day over 16


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## NateFalcon (Apr 6, 2018)

Salt...just have fun with it!...


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## Ziricote (Apr 6, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> View attachment 60252
> Salt...just have fun with it!...



This pic lost its fun when I realized it was only salt


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## NateFalcon (Apr 6, 2018)




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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 6, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Just have djunt with djit.





Ziricote said:


> This pic lost its fun when I realized it was only salt


Rockzo agreeezz baybaah!!


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## Seabeast2000 (Apr 6, 2018)




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