# The end of ebony?



## Necromagnon (Feb 27, 2013)

Hi guys!
Just been told about it on our french forum, and thought it might interest some of you. The results are very promising (specially the twisted one).

LM105

It could be used as replacement material for fingerboards, I'm not sure we could use it for thicker parts as the fabrication process might need a lot of layers and resine. Maybe for a molded body... It gives very interesting idea (and lot of sustain )

I've a serious crush on this knife:


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## codycarter (Feb 27, 2013)

Perfect!
I was literally just looking into replacements for ebony. Wonder if it feels and sounds similar


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## Necromagnon (Feb 27, 2013)

codycarter said:


> Perfect!
> I was literally just looking into replacements for ebony. Wonder if it feels and sounds similar


About feeling, I think that's no problem. When playing, you mostly feel strings and frets. About sound...


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 27, 2013)

Watching with interest.


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## Pikka Bird (Feb 27, 2013)

I've been looking for something like this, actually. I've looked into phenolic and other synthetic materials, but can't find a place to buy a large piece, so I'd love to try making my own some time.


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## Walterson (Feb 27, 2013)

Thats what Gibson uses instead of ebony, even on Custom Shop Guitars....

google: obsidian/black paperstone or richlite. It's "Micarta" that uses black paper/fibre instead of cloth.

I tried to get some pieces for headstock veneers and fretboards but couldn't find the right sizes and/or it cost more than Ebony... so I ended up using Ebony.


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## foreright (Feb 27, 2013)

These guys appear to have Richlite fingerboards in stock - not that cheap but not extortionate either... Fingerboard Blanks

HTH


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## canuck brian (Feb 27, 2013)

You can also check out DragonPlate Carbon Fiber Composite Components - Carbon Fiber Sheet, carbon fiber sheets, Nomex, Square Tubes & Splices, Carbon Fiber Panel, Carbon Fiber Tube & Rod


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## Aztec (Feb 27, 2013)

Hagstrom uses something similar as their fretboards and they are great.


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## IkarusOnFire (Feb 27, 2013)

Martin guitars uses it for fretboards too - micarta. Never played it, but I can't help but be somewhat skeptic. Wood-nazi right here... For some reason though, it would probably be cool on a carbon fibre guitar  I don't like to mix plastic and wood.


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## Walterson (Feb 27, 2013)

IkarusOnFire said:


> I don't like to mix plastic and wood.



What is paper made from in your world?


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## Necromagnon (Feb 27, 2013)

Walterson said:


> google: obsidian/black paperstone or richlite. It's "Micarta" that uses black paper/fibre instead of cloth.


Yep, the discussion on our forum starts with what is called "ebonol" (don't know if it's a universal name or just a silly french name), and jumps on micarta and other composites.
I wonder if it's not also close to what is used on Parker as fretboard?


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## Danukenator (Feb 27, 2013)

The stuff Gibson has been using felt great, I'd take it over run of the mill rosewood any day. IMO, there is probably too much of a bias against any non-wood product for it to have much success presently.


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## AwDeOh (Feb 27, 2013)

This stuff looks interesting, definitely if you want that jet black look. Does anyone know what quality of the AllParts ebony fretboard blanks is like these days?


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## vansinn (Feb 27, 2013)

Originally Posted by IkarusOnFire 
I don't like to mix plastic and wood.



Walterson said:


> What is paper made from in your world?



Hehe.. then of course the paper (=wood) still needs some resin bonding..
And then again, a lacquered maple boards is for all intents actually coated with.. plastic, so..


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## Necromagnon (Feb 27, 2013)

Danukenator said:


> IMO, there is probably too much of a bias against any non-wood product for it to have much success presently.


Well, I'll say yes and no. I agree on the basics, but I think it's just some lack of knowledge more than anything else. And composites tend to be used more and more, by luthiers and on stock guitars. So I think it's changing, and it will go fast (as Gibson use it, it HAS to be good  ).



> definitely if you want that jet black look


I'm sure it's possible to do really interesting things depending on the color and pattern of the reinforcement layers and by adding some pigmentation in the matrix.


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## Phlegethon (Feb 27, 2013)

I've played on a couple of acoustic guitars made completely out of carbon fiber. they basically dominate in every way over their wooded counterparts, period, full stop. their voice is extremely clear and balanced, they're loud, and there's several other advantages to having carbon fiber as the guitar's material. immune to weather changes, its strength means you can base the neck profile on comfort alone without having to be concerned with shifting due to weather changes or string gauge changes, to name two off of the top of my head


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## Gregori (Feb 27, 2013)

I think this is an alternative to wood, rather than an alternative to ebony. A dyed maple fretboard would be an alternative to ebony.


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## thraxil (Feb 27, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> Yep, the discussion on our forum starts with what is called "ebonol" (don't know if it's a universal name or just a silly french name), and jumps on micarta and other composites.
> I wonder if it's not also close to what is used on Parker as fretboard?



Parker fretboards almost can't be thought of as fretboards. They just take the wood neck (basswood or mahogany on most) and wrap it with the carbon-fibre glass epoxy exoskeleton. But the thing to understand is that the exoskeleton is incredibly thin. Like under a millimeter. It's more equivalent to a super strong layer of paint than a normal ebony/rosewood/maple fretboard.


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## Necromagnon (Feb 28, 2013)

Phlegethon said:


> I've played on a couple of acoustic guitars made completely out of carbon fiber. they basically dominate in every way over their wooded counterparts, period, full stop. their voice is extremely clear and balanced, they're loud, and there's several other advantages to having carbon fiber as the guitar's material. immune to weather changes, its strength means you can base the neck profile on comfort alone without having to be concerned with shifting due to weather changes or string gauge changes, to name two off of the top of my head


Was that a complete carbon fiber guitar or was the harmony table still from spruce (or cedar)? Because this is the main part that will affect sounds. The body and neck are barely noticeable.
But I agree with what is said, carbon fiber allow a wide variety of design, and to reach some points on shape/thickness and all that was impossible with wood.



> I think this is an alternative to wood, rather than an alternative to ebony. A dyed maple fretboard would be an alternative to ebony.


Yes, sure. But I was trying to find a title for this thread, and have strictly (not 7, don't worry...  ) no idea. So I choose some kind of provocating title to catch sso members attention. 



> Parker fretboards almost can't be thought of as fretboards. They just take the wood neck (basswood or mahogany on most) and wrap it with the carbon-fibre glass epoxy exoskeleton. But the thing to understand is that the exoskeleton is incredibly thin. Like under a millimeter. It's more equivalent to a super strong layer of paint than a normal ebony/rosewood/maple fretboard.


I've serious doubt about it. Neck is layered by carbon fiber, that why they have really thin neck, no truss rod (if I remember well), and very deep placed heel (I don't know if we can call it a heel anymore). But for the fretboard, I'm 99.99% sure that they use a real fretboard as "normal" guitars, but the material is just some compress glass fiber reinforced composite, with short fibers instead of long woven ones (like on carbon fiber, for exemple).
Also, the exosqueleton might be thin and soft, or thin and stiff (on the surface), etc. It clearly depends on the matrix used and the reticulation conditions, that will create some surface hardness on the composite (and some other parameters I forgot).


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## ixlramp (Feb 28, 2013)

Ebonol is a high compression laminate of black paper and phenolic resin. I have a Cort Curbow 4FL with an Ebonol fingerboard, i bought it because of this material which i consider better for my needs than Ebony. It is extremely hard, smooth and will not absorb moisture. I like to tap my fretless and use my fingernail on the plain strings so i need something as hard and smooth as possible.


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## foreright (Feb 28, 2013)

Parker Fly "fretboards" are 0.5mm carbon-glass-epoxy composite according to their own website. I seem to remember quite a big deal being made of the fact that it didn't have a "traditional" fretboard at the time back in the early 90s...


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## Necromagnon (Feb 28, 2013)

foreright said:


> Parker Fly "fretboards" are 0.5mm carbon-glass-epoxy composite according to their own website. I seem to remember quite a big deal being made of the fact that it didn't have a "traditional" fretboard at the time back in the early 90s...


Doesn't surprise me. And now, everybody praises those guitars. 
About the thickness, I thought it was thicker. Thanks for the info, dudes.


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## IkarusOnFire (Feb 28, 2013)

Walterson said:


> What is paper made from in your world?



Touché. I just prefer to keep obvious plastic parts off a guitar, unless it's a full blown futuristic build, which in my world would be a carbon fibre guitar or similar  I don't like the plastic knob on my switch on my new custom. Feels as if is out of place, because everything else is metal and wood. 
But...it's just an appearance thing


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## Necromagnon (Feb 28, 2013)

IkarusOnFire said:


> But...it's just an appearance thing


Oh, thought it was a matter of sustain...


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## frank falbo (Mar 1, 2013)

For me its entirely a matter of the expansion and contraction ranges. With wood, if your glue joint is good the two pieces will at least feel like they're remaining connected, even if the e/c rates are different. Forward and back bow across seasonal changes are heavily influenced by whether the fretboard is expanding or contracting at the same rate as the neck wood. There are lots of other considerations when combining wood with non-wood aside from aesthetics. But if you remain cognizant of them the build can be great, I just don't prefer it at this point in most cases. Maybe if the neck blank is a multi-laminate sandwich that has basically become petrified (like overly stabilized) by all the joins and the checks and balances of different species. (I don't mean that in a bad way)


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## Necromagnon (Mar 1, 2013)

I see your point, and I didn't think about that but I think you're right. Different expansion can alter neck stability. I think that's why Parker and some others layered their wood with carbon fiber or other composite: to protect them from all humidity and weather changes (totally waterproof).


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## JSanta (Mar 1, 2013)

My father is a knife builder and has used Micarta as a handle material for at least 10 years. I think the idea of using it on a fretboard or tailpiece would be very interesting. We are going to build some custom pieces for my new Artcore, and he suggested Micarta for the tailpiece and finger rest. I don't get up to visit him as often as I would like but if I do make this happen, I will post the pictures and progress.


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## Kroaton (Mar 1, 2013)

Martin guitars have been using fretboards made out of micarta for a while now.
Guitar Omnivore: Refretting a Martin Micarta Fingerboard


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## thraxil (Mar 1, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> I've serious doubt about it. Neck is layered by carbon fiber, that why they have really thin neck, no truss rod (if I remember well), and very deep placed heel (I don't know if we can call it a heel anymore).



Also, all of my Parkers definitely have truss-rods, though I've only ever turned them on the first setup after purchasing when the previous owner had a different preference for neck-relief. Never had to do an adjustment otherwise.


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## Necromagnon (Mar 1, 2013)

thraxil said:


> Also, all of my Parkers definitely have truss-rods, though I've only ever turned them on the first setup after purchasing when the previous owner had a different preference for neck-relief. Never had to do an adjustment otherwise.


I owned a Parker once, but couldn't bring it back to me in France... :'(
They're pure wonders... It's so perfect...


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## Kroaton (Mar 2, 2013)

A shame they don't make baritone/fanned fret Parkers.


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## HighPotency (Mar 2, 2013)

Kroaton said:


> A shame they don't make baritone/fanned fret Parkers.


It looks like they finally released a 7 string, hopefully baritones aren't far behind! 

I'm actually a bit surprised they have one but not the other.


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## Necromagnon (Mar 2, 2013)

HighPotency said:


> It looks like they finally released a 7 string, hopefully baritones aren't far behind!


Imo, 7 strings have to be bariton. To have a B string that sound a minimum and is not spaghetti, you need to increase the scale.

Also, I agree with this pity... And the worst part is that the 7 string they just came out with is not the real Fly...


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