# How many fingers is "nessecary" for fast playing?



## SnowfaLL (Nov 21, 2009)

edit.. this thread was from like. november.


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## Waelstrum (Nov 21, 2009)

I don't know if this is 'correct', but I like to use three if it has a three note pulse, two if it has two or four note pulse, and four fingers for the speed metal tremolo picking stile bass notes.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2009)

Ian Harris from Iron Maiden only uses two fingers, I think its what your comfortable with and if you can match the speed.

I use two and have tried the one finger method as Geddy Lee uses, kinda alternate picking with your finger tip. It does work in some applications but not for string skipping.


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## Nats (Nov 24, 2009)

i can use 2 or 3 comfortably. 3 more for gallops and speed, and 2 for everything else. but that's in general. it really depends on the song or style of song


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## Fred the Shred (Nov 24, 2009)

Bevo said:


> Ian Harris from Iron Maiden only uses two fingers, I think its what your comfortable with and if you can match the speed.
> 
> I use two and have tried the one finger method as Geddy Lee uses, kinda alternate picking with your finger tip. It does work in some applications but not for string skipping.



Steve Harris, not Ian, mate.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Nov 24, 2009)

There's really no right and wrong in how many fingers to use. More like what would be the most comfortable way to play fast notes. 

Steve Harris and Jeff Berlin both use 2 fingers. Jack Bruce is a one finger guy, though I don't remember him doing many fast runs. Then Les Claypool and Billy Sheehan tend to use three. Geddy Lee tends to do all of the above and even goes an extra mile and tries the Flamenco method using 4 fingers (eg Animate). All are monster players in their own right. 

It comes down to preference really.


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## Arminius (Nov 24, 2009)

Hell, try a fifths based tuning. 4 fingers almost becomes necessary.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 25, 2009)

Also, it might be worth checking out how Wooten plays (thumb-pointer-middle-ring or thumbdown-thumbup-pointer-middle) as it's surprisingly comfortable. Takes a bit of getting used to to get the attack even and the string skipping stuff working.

Right now I use two fingers normally, three fingers for fast gallops and a pick if I need to go faster than that.


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## Demeyes (Nov 25, 2009)

TemjinStrife said:


> Right now I use two fingers normally, three fingers for fast gallops and a pick if I need to go faster than that.



Thats about the same as me. I use 2 fingers for most stuff, except galloped style riffs and runs. When it gets to doing very fast stuff I find it helps to use a pick so I can get a more defined sound.


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## velvetkevorkian (Nov 29, 2009)

My personal preference is for three fingers; I've three pretty much exclusively for a few years now. The downside is it does take a long time to get it flowing perfectly even, and not drop into a triplet feel accidentally. 

For what you're saying I think you would be fine with two fingers.

YMMV.


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## Setnakt (Dec 4, 2009)

I play with four fingers. When I was really playing bass I was hitting 32nd notes above 200 bpm. You can not do that with fewer than four fingers without alternate picking with each finger, and then with four fingers you would be hitting 64th notes. Try doing that with two.


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## Ishan (Dec 4, 2009)

Legendary metal bass player Steve DiGiorgio is known to use a personal 3 fingers technic : instead of doing 321321321... like many do, he does 1232123212321... it gives a very even note to note consistency but it's a bit of a hell to learn


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 4, 2009)

I think im gonna stick with 321 three-finger style..

I actually found out some about Bunny Brunel's style, where he does strict alternate ascending, but economy descending.. Its really odd at first but damn does it work good. That, combined with 3 fingers, should be enough for almost every situation if I ever get it smooth.

the faster thrash/metal somewhat concerns me, but im sure if I do ever need to do that stuff (not too likely), I can pull out the pick, in which ive played a show already with insane necrophagist-like riffing bass playing already once before.. so im sure I could do it again.


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## troyguitar (Dec 4, 2009)

Setnakt said:


> I play with four fingers. When I was really playing bass I was hitting 32nd notes above 200 bpm. You can not do that with fewer than four fingers without alternate picking with each finger, and then with four fingers you would be hitting 64th notes. Try doing that with two.



That's like 27+ nps... 50+% faster than Shawn Lane. You sure you don't mean 16th notes?


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeh I was thinking that sounds wayy too fast to be reasonable, but I was also thinking he probably wouldnt have any sort of control with that type of speed.. Most people who measure their talent in speed often dont have control.


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## Setnakt (Dec 4, 2009)

Shawn Lane used a pick. I use 4 fingers = equivalent of 2 picks. I would hope I would be faster than a guitarist with all four fingers 

But sure, I'm bad at math and have no dynamic control. Have it your way if you want.


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## troyguitar (Dec 5, 2009)

Why get so defensive? You stated that you can play more than 50% faster than the fastest guy most of us have ever seen/heard... it makes sense to be skeptical.

Do you have a video of yourself (or anyone really) using this technique? I've seen all of the stupid youtube "FASTEST GUITARIST EVER!!!" videos and it would be hilarious to see a bassist destroy them all.


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## Setnakt (Dec 5, 2009)

> he probably wouldnt have any sort of control with that type of speed.. Most people who measure their talent in speed often dont have control.


So I "probably" don't have any sort of control. And apparently I'm measuring my talent just by mentioning where my technique was.

I am not the fastest guitarist ever. I am not a faster guitarist than Shawn Lane. I am not even talking about guitar. I am talking about bass. I'm not even claiming to be that great a bass player, or having been any faster than any other bassist. But I do know that I had dynamic control over my technique and where it was.

I play with four fingers. If each body part is moving at an 8th note, in this case, each finger (as opposed to a wrist downpicking), then two surfaces/fingers = 16th notes, 4 fingers = 32nd notes. Four fingers are twice as fast as two. Two fingers are as fast as a guitarist alternate picking. One finger is hitting twice per quarter note, or metronome click. This math is not that complicated, and in the abstract, comparing technique piece for piece, I was not as fast as a truly fast guitarist, which I define to be 240+ bpm, which includes guys like Shawn Lane.

I trained for 4+ hours a day to a metronome, for years, after already playing bass for years before that. I decided I wanted to become a professional grade instrumentalist. Part of the reason why I stopped playing bass is because everyone has this snotty attitude about how anyone who actually applies themselves to learning the technique of the bass guitar has no soul, or feel, or vibe, or groove, or whatever other superstitious crap. It's a double standard that's applies only to this instrument, and it's treated like the retarded kid brother of the guitar that you're not allowed to be any good at unless you're already rich and famous.

I don't have a camera and this was a while ago. Maybe I can get one and come up with something but that shouldn't even be the point, and at this point all it seems like I'd end up hearing is that I'm not a "real" musician because I actually cared about performing music specifically on one instrument. What is the point when everyone has this ridiculous, confrontational and dismissive attitude about having a remotely competent technique level?


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## troyguitar (Dec 5, 2009)

I just wanted to know more because I'd never heard of anything like that and I'd like to learn it myself. Since my 9-string is tuned so low I'm starting to get interested in bass ideas and techniques.


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 5, 2009)

I think you got it backwards, Bassists are the exact opposite of snobs when it comes to technique, only thing I ever heard a bassist be snobby about was the cabinet dimensions, has to be perfect in WinISO or it sounds like shit, apparently.. Technique is a guitar thing, bassists dont even talk about technique, every bassist ive asked in person always gives me the "Eh do whatever you want" speech.. I have never heard anyone tell a bassist he has no soul for playing too fast, I just dont see where playing at those speeds are applicible in ANY situation other than "br00talz metu11zz" where you cant even hear the bass anyways..

Hell, ive made like 20 threads on bass technique on here, talkbass and afew other sites, and this thread is the only one to ever get to the 2nd page... NO bassists really talk technique, cause its all "Oh however you want to play, what works for you" shit. Its like asking a jazz "teacher" how to learn to improvise 

being a professional instrumentalist at the bass requires being able to play over any situation in any genre, and 99% of the situations are jazz/funk/blues based. Learning how to walk and sightread are a MILLION times more important than speed.. As long as you can play quarter notes over the fastest jazz standards (Giant steps?) in a walking fashion, thats as fast as you will ever need. So unless you can walk Giant Steps at 240bpm and not get lost.. I dunno man. Thats alot of time spend on something thats redundant if you want to be a "professional bassist." Although im sure our definition of a Professional musician are very different; Im talking about one who could do any audition at any school/cruiseship/etc and be accepted; play in any band and pick up the tune weither by ear or sightreading within minutes, that kinda musician. 

and Im not saying you're not a real musician, just saying that claim is unreal, and we need proof to believe it. I may be questioning its practical use, and I think thats a reasonable argument. Besides, as the thread starter, I was asking for advice on practical bass speed for Fusion and progressive rock, where you may do 16th notes at 200bpm max, you are talking double that.?


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## Setnakt (Dec 5, 2009)

I agree with you about bassists, it's everyone else that's a snob. The problem is that bassists have no standards about technique at all, so actually caring about being able to play _the instrument_ rather than just being able to sight-read is what got me into trouble, as if the two were mutually exclusive.

I play "br00tal metulzlz" apparently. I had cause to gain that kind of technique. I was trying to parallel a fast guitarist's picking speed with each finger so I could hit 32nd notes at 240+, but fingerpicking is a larger movement that takes a lot more effort to maintain technique with.

Why is the claim "unreal"? Plenty of bassists hit 8th notes with each finger, they just usually stick to 1 or 2 fingers at a time. I use 4. What is so unbelievable about me fingerpicking?


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 5, 2009)

I agree with you on the part where bassists have no standards of technique, but I dont think it means they are anti-technique, its just they dont feel its as important as guitarists do. You dont see bassists saying "Oh if you cant sweep pick 6 string arpeggios at 200bpm you suck" like guitarists do, they just dont care really.

and I just put that into guitar pro, 32nd notes at 240 bpm.. I mean, its so fast that if you were doing ANYTHING other than peddling on one note the whole time, I dont think any of the notes would be audible. I still think its redundant in the real world.

And going back to my old point, If you can't play something to the effect that you can play with the notes (ie leave out the odd 32nd note, and not mess up at those speeds, or anticipated notes) and playing all different notes instead of a "peddling speed".. I dont consider that "controlled".. The key to technique is Control, when guys like Loomis do their sweeping and shit, they dont rely on one pattern/one "pedal lick" that they just metronomed for hours; they can do any arpeggio in any position at that speed. That is real control, useful control.

To prove my point abit, here is me filling in some notes at that speed.. Take a listen and tell me if that sounds logical/possible/usable? 

YouSendIt: Online File Sharing and collaboration with FTP Replacement - Send Large Files and Email Attachments with Managed File Transfer Solution

Heres a Chromatic scale with 32nd notes at 240BPM. If you can do this, please find a video camera!
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=MVNkSXR4ZEtRYTkzZUE9PQ

Keep in mind, guitarists use more legato than bassists, so something like that WOULD be possible by Shawn Lane or someone.. To say you PICK everynote, that is where it becomes a bit of a stretch.. But still, if you could replicate the chromatic scale midi I posted, go ahead, id love to see it.


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## Setnakt (Dec 5, 2009)

Wow, so clearly if something doesn't sound good in midi it must not have any application in music. Let's just forget horns and strings, they sound ridiculous in 8 bit video games, they must not be very good in real life.

All I'm saying is right hand technique can be utilized. What works on one finger can work on four. Yes I could play odd note groupings at speed. But through all of this you're making assumptions about melodic content that have nothing to do with right hand technique under any circumstances anyway.

It seems like you're not even paying attention. I may have been able to hit 210 bpm at my peak after warming up for an hour or two. I never really got any faster than that, and I certainly didn't get to 240, though that was my goal. There is a huge difference between these speeds. This was also years ago. Having just brought out my bass for the first time in like 6 months I was able to play along for a little while with 32nd notes at 180 bpm which is nothing stellar I guess.

Just note that you've made two points. 1) Fast technique has no application outside of "brutallz mietmileiajlz" and 2) bass has no application in metal because it's just buried anyways. Understand that I was playing _my_ music. I had application for fast bass work, and I fully intend on making the bass audible in recordings. If you have a problem with that, I don't care. But this was supposed to be about fast bass technique, and now you're telling me that fast bass technique doesn't matter and coming out with stupid chromatic nonsense in midi files to try to marginalize any opposing argument. You don't even need right hand technique to play that, you could just hammer on all those notes anyways. Whatever.


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 5, 2009)

Midi is fine, people complain about it because they just want to complain. Rhythm is rhythm, if you get a handheld metronome, the speed will be the EXACT SAME as a computer midi-metronome. There is no difference, beats are still beats. And for your info, I have done mp3 files with midi horn sections that professional musicians (Im talking people who make a living as session musicians, every style) could not believe it was midi/computer generated. All you need is the right soundfonts and abit of velocity.

I may make statements about Metal, but unless you are Steve Digiorgio (who doesnt play really fast, mind you), I never hear metal bass anyways, and im an unbiased person, I would love if it bass was more dominant in metal, but its just not, thats just how it is. You also make blanket statements about bassists being snobs who care too much about technique, or whatever you said that didnt make sense at all.

Whatever, point is, with no evidence, anyone can claim anything about how fast they can play. I mean, I can play 128th notes at 436 BPM with just my thumb. Freddie Green style.


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## Harry (Dec 6, 2009)

Never hear metal bass?
What are you guys listening to, ...And Justice for All?
Kick drums and BASS GUITAR are the only 2 things holding down the low end in metal. If you take away the bass guitar, you'd notice instantly, because the low end would be almost completely gone.
Ask any audio engineer that does metal and he'll tell you this is correct. Too many people seem to think because the bass guitar isn't playing something else to what the guitar is doing it must mean the bass is "not there" but that's just incorrect.
Distorted guitars tend to be very loose and excessively resonant below 70-100Hz, which is why they are always hi passed out of mixes of recordings and live shows, so those super low frequencies you hear in metal are not guitars, it's always bass.
Listen to around 50 seconds into Bleed by Meshuggah, where you'll hear the bass guitar drop out, and it's just the guitars, and you'll notice how thin guitars actually sound.
When you have double or quad tracked guitars, guitars absolutely cannot be thick sounding or it'll muddy up the mix.
You'll hear the bass guitar come back in and bam , the ooomphh just comes back to the sound.


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## Harry (Dec 6, 2009)

Another thing I should point out too, that in metal circles, great technique is ridiculously important in metal.
Metal is all about having a solid rhythm section to sound heavy.
If the bass player sucks, it wont sound heavy. There are many many stories of tracking engineers kicking bass players out of the studio and making them go and practice or just getting a studio bassist and working from there because the bass is such a fundamental part of the mix.
Yes, while a lot of bass players might not be playing at light speed, as long as they are accurate, having an extreme sense of timing and hit the strings hard then it should come out sounding good.
Accuracy is key, as we all know, and as we also know, more important than straight line speed.


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## 8string (Dec 15, 2009)

^ what the man said!


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## the unbearable (Jan 20, 2010)

i don't know how it'll necessarily apply to this thread, but fwiw, i actually started playing with hybrid picking on bass a few years back. i like to use the pick most of the time, but it's nice to have the option for quick funky pops or double stops without changing rh position.


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## Concr3t3 (Jan 21, 2010)

I always switched between picks and fingers. Fingers for the heavy grooving parts and picks for the speed parts. High speed fingers just sound rather sloppy to me no matter how accurate they might actually be. And picks on slower parts just robs the song of the natural fullness in tone. I just think sticking to one or the other is rather limiting. 

As for not hearing bass in metal, it depends on who you are listening to plus are you sure you're listening for the right frequencies? My girlfriend does that all the time, "How come you can never hear the bass in metal?" ME: "What are you talking about? It's right there." hahaha I know others do it to. I think it's because they hear a beautifully distorted bass tone and mistake it for a guitar. My friends did that with Nothing when that CD was first released. People except to hear a clean driven bass guitar with metal when in reality is distorted to hell. 

Wanna hear some bass in Metal? Check out:

Overkill
The Haunted - The Dead Eye
And go back and relisten to Meshuggah. Forget about what you think the bass is going to sound like and you'll hear it.


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## LLink2411 (Feb 8, 2010)

I am in awe of all of your ability to tastefully hold it down at light speed.




Seriously though, just keep the groove going and worry about wanking yourself off in the privacy of your own home.


As to answer the OP's question, I suppose two would be the minimum. It might seem hard at first, but that is what practice is for.


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