# Canadian Politics



## JSanta

With the recent federal elections, I thought it might be of value to create this thread to gain insights from people.

I am a proud dual US/Canadian citizen, and I try my best to be an informed citizen even though I don't live in Canada anymore. 

I was reading an article this morning that linked to a "Wexit" FB group and some articles from CTV and the CBC regarding desire for the Prairies and Western Canada to separate from the rest of Canada. The election map, while not surprising given the most recent provincial elections, was completely Blue (for Americans, Blue is the colour of the Conservative party), with only one riding going NDP. 

With Trudeau now faced with forming a minority government, how do my fellow Canadians feel about what's going on in Canada?


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## efiltsohg

The conservative party would have had to win more seats than all the left wing parties put together for the results to practically be any different (and that's only if the CPC wasn't functionally identical to the liberal party, which they are)


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## ImNotAhab

I found deciding who to vote for a really tough call. I find Trudeau and Scheer are not endearing or likeable figures. Singh at least to me comes across "normal", or at least as normal a politician can be but the NDP platform rang hollow because we all knew they would never get a chance to deliver on it. Plus that pipe line sucks but it needs to be built.

In the end my vote was mostly based on the local candidate and was not a personal endorsement of the party leader.

As for the result, a minority government will be interesting if nothing else... I do not look forward to the eventual dissolution of Canada and getting caught in a war when the Republic of Sasberta invades British Columbia.


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## budda

First past the post needs to go. Voters are not being properly represented, regardless of vote. That pisses me off.


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## JSanta

The only reason I didn't vote NDP was because I didn't think they could push their platform forward at this time. I found (and find) Singh to be someone of good moral fiber, and I'm happy they will be a strong part of the government. 

With the very real unhappiness felt in the West with respects to another Liberal government, it will be very interesting to see how Trudeau leads. I like Trudeau, even with the controversies, and I have a difficult time supporting any Conservative candidate because of what's going on in the world right now. I feel like there needs to be a G7 that has members that haven't gone completely nationalistic.


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## JSanta

budda said:


> First past the post needs to go. Voters are not being properly represented, regardless of vote. That pisses me off.



Radio Lab had a very interesting episode about that issue 

I was not very familiar with ranked voting until this great episode. I'd like to see the ranked voting system become more common.


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## efiltsohg

First election since 1867 that a party won with less than 35% popular vote. Remember when Trudeau said 2015 would be the last election here with first-past-the-post? Well he sure isn't going to change anything now lol


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## JSanta

efiltsohg said:


> First election since 1867 that a party won with less than 35% popular vote. Remember when Trudeau said 2015 would be the last election here with first-past-the-post? Well he sure isn't going to change anything now lol



Same thing happens in the States. Little incentive for the "winning" party to make changes if the system currently benefits them or their party.


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## efiltsohg

JSanta said:


> Same thing happens in the States. Little incentive for the "winning" party to make changes if the system currently benefits them or their party.


First of all it's not even close to the same thing, secondly the USA is a republic not a democracy


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## JSanta

efiltsohg said:


> First of all it's not even close to the same thing, secondly the USA is a republic not a democracy



It's EXACTLY the same way in the States - the winning party does not have a reason to change a system that has worked for them. There are also plenty of different locations in the States that use ranked voting, it's just not at a State or National level. 

The political systems between the US and Canada are very different, I am well aware of that. What is the same is that there's little incentive for officials to make sweeping changes to the way they are voted into office if that system worked to get them into office in the first place.


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## sakeido

JSanta said:


> Same thing happens in the States. Little incentive for the "winning" party to make changes if the system currently benefits them or their party.



Whatever party is in power will change to a system that favors them. It also requires a referendum

Cons want FTPT, Liberals want Ranked Ballot, NDP and Green want PR

We've seen enough with what happens with parties changing electoral systems in the States (gerrymandered to shit to keep Republicans in power) or what happens when you put something to a referendum and let Dumbfuck Everyman have a direct say in government (Brexit, or BC deciding to pay the government $1.6 billion to repeal HST)

Approval ratings of governments elected by proportional representation systems tend to equal to or lesser than Canadian governments voted in through first past the post, so its not even like it'll make people like government any better


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## zappatton2

Well, I at least have a pretty free hand in voting for anyone, as my Vanier-Ottawa riding always, LITERALLY ALWAYS, swings Liberal, so I don't need to vote strategically, I could go Rhinoceros Party, or choose between the Communists or Marxist-Leninists (two actual parties that weirdly hate each other, while splitting like 10 votes per riding). The ballot is my oyster.

Joking aside, I'm glad we didn't swing to the Cons, but it is unfortunate that the mid-West will absolutely see this as a slight at them and the oil and gas industry, and it could incite further populism this side of the border (not that the People's Party and Bloc weren't already making hay whipping up resentment against immigrants and vulnerable minorities).

But let's be honest, at some point, we will have to decouple our economy from fossil fuels, which for a petro-state like Canada, is going to be more than a little difficult. And for Provinces that derive at least part of their identity in the fossil fuel game, I can't see this getting better before it gets much worse. But believe me, it is not a desire to see people lose their jobs or suffer economic hardship. I really don't know how Canada is going to make that transition, aside from the Trudeau method of talking out both sides of his mouth.


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## TheKindred

zappatton2 said:


> Joking aside, I'm glad we didn't swing to the Cons, but it is unfortunate that the mid-West will absolutely see this as a slight at them and the oil and gas industry, and it could incite further populism this side of the border (not that the People's Party and Bloc weren't already making hay whipping up resentment against immigrants and vulnerable minorities).



i'm seeing a lot of posts about western separation coming out of AB/SK that lump BC/AB/SK together as "The Western Republic of Canada", but i'm not sure that those two paid attention that BC has different priorities to them. Hell if you're talking separation, BC was the last to join the union b/c quite frankly they didn't really need to. It's a province/region that could essentially sustain itself.



> ...., aside from the Trudeau method of talking out both sides of his mouth.



as opposed to Chretien speaking out of only one


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## oracles

TheKindred said:


> BC was the last to join the union b/c quite frankly they didn't really need to. It's a province/region that could sustain itself



So is Alberta though. And like it or not, Canada needs Alberta firing on all cylinders, and we havent been since late 2014. Alberta could sustain itself solely off the Fort McMurray region, and theres an incredible amount of misunderstanding and misinformation about that particular region and what actually happens here.


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## sakeido

oracles said:


> So is Alberta though. And like it or not, Canada needs Alberta firing on all cylinders, and we havent been since late 2014. Alberta could sustain itself solely off the Fort McMurray region, and theres an incredible amount of misunderstanding and misinformation about that particular region and what actually happens here.



Alberta is landlocked. Separatism without BC would be idiotic beyond belief - like we think we have market access issues now? We'd have them a thousand times worse after.

Either we convince BC to come with us or we join the States, which would make me immediately move back into Canada by heading to Vancouver or the Okanagan or something. But the whole Wexit thing is just obnoxious... we stole that name from the five alarm tire fire over in Europe? what?


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## efiltsohg

There are many landlocked nations in the world, what a stupid argument


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## sakeido

efiltsohg said:


> There are many landlocked nations in the world



most countries aren't landlocked. The ones that are... Ethiopa, Uganda, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Nepal, Kazakhstan, Chad, Zimbabwe, Andorra? Vatican City? Pretty illustrious company we'd be in, huh. Literally no landlocked country is a serious oil producer.



> what a stupid argument


At least I have one. Go fuck yourself. Or do you have a brilliant plan where Alberta will somehow get pipelines built in the country they have just left? How will we manage all the carbon tariffs they would force us to pay? The province is not self sufficient and would go broke in a matter of years.


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## JSanta

efiltsohg said:


> There are many landlocked nations in the world, what a stupid argument



I read an interesting article that had been published after the last election, and that was "republished" following this weeks results. One of the points made in the article (https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...he-dumbest-political-movement-in-canada-today) is that the developed landlocked nations have very different economies compared to Alberta, in that they deal in services and goods that are easily moved across borders. They are not transporting goods like livestock, and oil. The UN agreement certainly would stand, but that doesn't mean that ROC or the US would necessarily make it easy for them to broker new trade agreements. 

If Brexit is used as an example, they already exist as a country distinct from the EU, and I think that the difficulties they are experiencing would be amplified should a province try to leave Canada (I think the same thing could be said of Quebec honestly). 

Full disclosure, that website is right of center, and I typically don't link/read from sources that are left or right of center. The arguments were very interesting, and the comments were also very interesting, and have been growing every minute.


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## TedEH

Every time elections come around, I'm reminded of how little I understand politics or people.


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## sakeido

JSanta said:


> If Brexit is used as an example, they already exist as a country distinct from the EU, and I think that the difficulties they are experiencing would be amplified should a province try to leave Canada (I think the same thing could be said of Quebec honestly).



Quebec leaving would probably be a disaster for them as well, but they control the St. Lawrence Seaway which is the access to the Atlantic from the Great Lakes so at least they can leverage that negotiate a good deal.


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## JSanta

sakeido said:


> Quebec leaving would probably be a disaster for them as well, but they control the St. Lawrence Seaway which is the access to the Atlantic from the Great Lakes so at least they can leverage that negotiate a good deal.



That is certainly a distinct difference, but that route goes both ways. I'm still of the opinion that a unified Canada is best for the country.


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## sakeido

JSanta said:


> That is certainly a distinct difference, but that route goes both ways. I'm still of the opinion that a unified Canada is best for the country.



Definitely. If there's no way to manage the problem when we all belong to the same country, there is absolutely no way we'd manage it by splintering into smaller states.


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## Drew

JSanta said:


> It's EXACTLY the same way in the States - the winning party does not have a reason to change a system that has worked for them. There are also plenty of different locations in the States that use ranked voting, it's just not at a State or National level.


Maine actually just became the first to allow it. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...t-candidates-election-2018-column/2023574002/


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## JSanta

Drew said:


> Maine actually just became the first to allow it.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...t-candidates-election-2018-column/2023574002/



Thanks for the correction Drew! I hope this is something that becomes standard across the rest of the US.


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## Drew

JSanta said:


> Thanks for the correction Drew! I hope this is something that becomes standard across the rest of the US.


Hey, I'm being super pedantic by correcting you here...  ...except, it IS kind of interesting, and kinda awesome they're giving it a try. I'll be curious to see how this plays out over time. 

I agree though, that the basic premise makes sense - any process that ensures the winner of an election has the support of at LEAST 50% of voters is probably a good one. It's interesting to think how the last presidential election would have played out with ranked choice voting, down here.


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## JSanta

Drew said:


> Hey, I'm being super pedantic by correcting you here...  ...except, it IS kind of interesting, and kinda awesome they're giving it a try. I'll be curious to see how this plays out over time.
> 
> I agree though, that the basic premise makes sense - any process that ensures the winner of an election has the support of at LEAST 50% of voters is probably a good one. It's interesting to think how the last presidential election would have played out with ranked choice voting, down here.



I didn't take it as you being pedantic at all. I wrote something that was factually incorrect, and I appreciate the correction. 

If you haven't listened to the Radio Lab podcast I linked to earlier, I really recommend it. I vividly remember getting done teaching a night class and then sitting in my car in my garage to finish listening to it.


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## Drew

Thanks - I was poking fun at myself. I'll try to check it out if I get a free night!


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## efiltsohg

sakeido said:


> most countries aren't landlocked. The ones that are... Ethiopa, Uganda, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Nepal, Kazakhstan, Chad, Zimbabwe, Andorra? Vatican City? Pretty illustrious company we'd be in, huh. Literally no landlocked country is a serious oil producer.
> 
> 
> At least I have one. Go fuck yourself. Or do you have a brilliant plan where Alberta will somehow get pipelines built in the country they have just left? How will we manage all the carbon tariffs they would force us to pay? The province is not self sufficient and would go broke in a matter of years.



I literally never once advocated separation, what are you on about? What's really bothering you?


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## Randy

efiltsohg said:


> There are many landlocked nations in the world, what a stupid argument





sakeido said:


> most countries aren't landlocked. The ones that are... Ethiopa, Uganda, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Nepal, Kazakhstan, Chad, Zimbabwe, Andorra? Vatican City? Pretty illustrious company we'd be in, huh. Literally no landlocked country is a serious oil producer.
> 
> 
> At least I have one. Go fuck yourself. Or do you have a brilliant plan where Alberta will somehow get pipelines built in the country they have just left? How will we manage all the carbon tariffs they would force us to pay? The province is not self sufficient and would go broke in a matter of years.



Arguments and disagreements are fine but stopping being snippy. No name calling, no attacks.


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## Xaios

I swear, Western Alienation crops up after every election, and then crawls back under the rug nearly as quickly. Separation is _never_ going to happen, because the provinces where people want it most need BC to come along for it to be remotely tenable, and BC has absolutely no desire to join them. Heck, these days Alberta is talking about building a railway through my neck of the woods (Yukon, through to Alaska) to try and bypass BC, but if they separated, ain't no way that oil is getting through here either. Not that the whole concept is anything more than a pipe(line) dream anyway.


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## musicaldeath

I will preface this by saying this is all my opinion. I didn't find any of our political leaders someone I would want to vote for. I would say I am typically more conservative than liberal, but not far right. What I dislike the most is needing (or at least feeling like I have to choose) between social and economic values. There is no balance with any of the parties.

JT failed on all but one of his election platforms, and it happened to be the one I couldn't care less about (and that industry from what I read isn't doing well either). Then all of the blunders during the last four years. Not that other politicians don't have them, but he just seems so immature for someone who is supposed to be a leader.

Scheer. Boring. Glad he didn't press the anti-abortion stuff even though that would be political suicide for any party in this country. Ended up voting this way because the guy in my riding didn't seem like and idiot/dreamer with no plan etc.

Singh. He seemed like he gets it up front, but has no real plan to act. Wants to build a pipeline to supply fresh, potable water to communities that desperately need it. Admirable. Repeatedly tells interviewers to not focus or not ask how he is going to accomplish this (or pay for it etc.). So all good will, no plan to act. Fuck off. The fact is, it was all for the young crowd to eat up and help boost numbers (which didn't matter anyway).

Working in the O&G industry and living in Calgary for the last ten years, I found this documentary interesting:



I haven't done much in the way of fact checking it myself yet, but if even part of it is true, the implications are great. But nothing will come of it. Too many well funded, misguided "do-gooders" out there that don't understand what it is they are even protesting.

As far as western separation? Idiocy for all the reasons stated above. Although my wife brought up what I thought was a good point. If you look at all the demographics in this country and how they vote, what their values are, Canada is almost too big and too different to be one unified nation (same thing with the US in a sense).


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## zappatton2

Wasn't sure where to shoehorn this story, this seems as good a place as any. Proud Boys now a terrorist group in Canada;
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-proud-boys-terrorists-1.5899186


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## TedEH

Wait- we have a Canadian Politics thread? 

Also...


zappatton2 said:


> Proud Boys now a terrorist group in Canada


Good.


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## ImNotAhab

zappatton2 said:


> Wasn't sure where to shoehorn this story, this seems as good a place as any. Proud Boys now a terrorist group in Canada;
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-proud-boys-terrorists-1.5899186



Hahahahhaahhahaha, Outstanding.


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## StevenC

TedEH said:


> Wait- we have a Canadian Politics thread?


This the first I'm hearing of you guys having politics.


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## thebeesknees22

Canada actually has some pretty interesting politics. I had no idea until I moved here. 

The provinces are waay more loosely tied together than the states in the US. And just how the government actually functions is really interesting. LIke it's strange to me being from the US when I see Trudeau having a debate in person with other members of parliament. People get kinda rowdy lol

Like ..can you imagine a president doing this? 


BC has it's fair share of corruption. ON is kind of entertaining. QC ..is... it's another level. I don't know where to start. Moving to QC though has been a shock though for politics. lol 
Oh and Alberta apparently has a decent sized separatist party or a group of folks wanting to separate from Canada. lol Who knew?!


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## Xaios

zappatton2 said:


> Wasn't sure where to shoehorn this story, this seems as good a place as any. Proud Boys now a terrorist group in Canada;
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-proud-boys-terrorists-1.5899186


This pleases me.


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## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> Alberta apparently has a decent sized separatist party


For the longest time, when I heard "separatists", I thought there was only Quebecers.



thebeesknees22 said:


> The provinces are waay more loosely tied together than the states in the US.


The area I live in is interesting, 'cause we're so close to Ottawa but teeeeechnically on the Quebec side. It's basically all one big city divided by a river - some people treat it like one big city, and others act like the other side doesn't exist.


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## zappatton2

TedEH said:


> For the longest time, when I heard "separatists", I thought there was only Quebecers.
> 
> 
> The area I live in is interesting, 'cause we're so close to Ottawa but teeeeechnically on the Quebec side. It's basically all one big city divided by a river - some people treat it like one big city, and others act like the other side doesn't exist.


True, I live on _that _side.


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## thebeesknees22

Lol I really like Ottawa. Pre-covid I would go out there to chill once a month or so, and I always see really swanky houses in Gatineau for not crazy expensive prices. If I could work from home permanently I would totally go out that way. I would have to stay on the Gatineau side though since my job is tied to tax breaks in QC.


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## TedEH

I actually kinda like that I have the benefit of cheaper rent/living in Quebec AND easy access to everything in Ottawa. I've never had an Ontario employer actually take off the right amount of tax though.


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## thebeesknees22

No doubt! The price differences between houses in Gatineau and Ottawa seems a lot bigger than just the income tax differences. The QC income taxes still kill me though when I'm sitting at pretty much 50% between provincial and federal when the housing market in MTL is exploding. lol *First world problem. 

Get a massive raise? ...nooope... the government keeps half of it.. literally for me. lol

...I need to find an accountant that know the vfx industry so I can get that down some.


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## TedEH

You must be decent enough off though if you're being taxed that high. Even in Quebec, you only approach 50% when you hit $150k, which, in Gatineau, makes you practically rich for a single income. That's keeping in mind it's marginal as well - If you made 150k, your effective rate over the entire thing is still closer to 38%, even though that puts you "in the 50% bracket". I think I have the math slightly wrong, but it's something like that.

Edit: I'm not an accountant and might have it waaaaay off, so don't take my word for any of that.


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## thebeesknees22

yeah it's not a true 50%. It's tiered so like you pay 15% on the first bracket then what's leftover you pay the next %, and what's leftover after that you'll pay that % etc.. I think salaries in general are higher in VFX by quite a bit than games depending on your department (hint: learn Houdini! good FX people are ridiculously hard to find...and no it's not easy lol. But if you're technical and have a good eye, and if you don't mind working 60-80hrs a week a few months out of the year...then it's a pretty good job)

That being said....there are a lot less benefits in VFX. Very very few companies give bonuses. There are virtually no retirement plans or pensions etc... You have to make sure you're covered for retirement yourself if you're in vfx because you will have nothing if you don't lol ...And you tend to bounce around a lot more too from project to project unless you make staff somewhere.

Anyway, right now I'm getting hit almost right at 50% on my gross vs net. I think it's like 48% last I checked (BUT that's also because of that CPP or whatever tax that is that only lasts for around 6 months until you max it out.. After that, it'll drop some). 

In a city like MTL though that salary won't get you anything super fancy on a single income now unless you move far out. (If you stick to the 30% of your gross income rule for rent or mortgages that is. I don't think that 30% rule really applies in QC since taxes are so much higher so I try to aim for a lot less). On the main island you're looking at a medium sized apartment now or a shoebox if you're in Griffintown for $475-$550k. That wouldn't be tooo bad with a big downpayment, but some of the condo fees are reallly high so that really drives up the monthly payments fast. 1-2 yrs ago you could have been living a baller lifestyle though. Crazy how fast things can change...

If I didn't work almost dead center on the main island it would be easier to move farther out and buy a nicer house and the super high taxes wouldn't bother me as much, but since work is right smack in the middle of the main island it's giving me 2 choices. 1. buy a place I'm not thrilled with that'll need a lot of work or 2. live with an hour or more commute which I'm not thrilled with either if they make us go back to the studio someday lol


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## BlackSG91

They should bring back the Natural Law Party of Canada. I think they would be far more relevant now because of today's most trying times. It's a matter of time before people wake up to Transcendental meditation and complete consciousness. People from all walks of life are already taking up Yoga classes. Why not throw some Yogic Flying into the mix. Doug Henning for PM!



;>)/


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## zappatton2

BlackSG91 said:


> They should bring back the Natural Law Party of Canada. I think they would be far more relevant now because of today's most trying times. It's a matter of time before people wake up to Transcendental meditation and complete consciousness. People from all walks of life are already taking up Yoga classes. Why not throw some Yogic Flying into the mix. Doug Henning for PM!
> 
> 
> 
> ;>)/


Natural Law was always too new age for me. I prefer the Rhinos, repealing the Law of Gravity and tearing down the Rockies to improve the coastal view are the sorts of public policy proposals I can really get behind.


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## nightflameauto

zappatton2 said:


> Natural Law was always too new age for me. I prefer the Rhinos, repealing the Law of Gravity and tearing down the Rockies to improve the coastal view are the sorts of public policy proposals I can really get behind.


*SIGH*

I wish American politicians were so ambitious.


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## budda

CBC running an article online asking if govt overspent helping Canadians through the pandemic.


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## thebeesknees22

That's ....what? lol Maybe the CBC should be asking all the businesses and restaurants that had to close permanently if the government spent enough.


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## thebeesknees22

...and where's mah vaccine? The Canadian government is brutally slow on this. Here in QC we're just now hitting the 85+ yr old group...

/vent over lol


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## Drew

JSanta said:


> I didn't take it as you being pedantic at all. I wrote something that was factually incorrect, and I appreciate the correction.
> 
> If you haven't listened to the Radio Lab podcast I linked to earlier, I really recommend it. I vividly remember getting done teaching a night class and then sitting in my car in my garage to finish listening to it.


Since this was bumped - and I don't know which was more surprising, learning that Canada had politics, or learning that I must have at some point known that since I'd _already posted in this thread _- in the 2020 election Massachusetts had a ballot initiative for ranked-choice voting similar to Maine's, which failed by a margin of about 10 points. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the ballot again, though, as it pretty clearly wasn't a good cycle for a fairly wonky question on how to change the way we tabulate votes in an election, and when it does I kind of hope it passes.


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## JSanta

Drew said:


> Since this was bumped - and I don't know which was more surprising, learning that Canada had politics, or learning that I must have at some point known that since I'd _already posted in this thread _- in the 2020 election Massachusetts had a ballot initiative for ranked-choice voting similar to Maine's, which failed by a margin of about 10 points. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the ballot again, though, as it pretty clearly wasn't a good cycle for a fairly wonky question on how to change the way we tabulate votes in an election, and when it does I kind of hope it passes.



While I can (and do) vote in the Canadian elections, I am an outsider for a lot of different reasons. Ranked choice voting (IMO) is an important next step in the political evolution here in the States. For many places, if your candidate doesn't win, your vote basically didn't count. Doesn't matter that the previous president had the second most popular votes in history, he lost. I think it also opens up the potential for 3rd party candidates and those not being viewed as throw-away votes.


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## zappatton2

I would be very down with ranked ballots, considering in my riding, on average there's usually about seven or eight choices. I think the Cons might have trouble with it, since they will always have a solid base, but outside of that base, they wouldn't make too many folk's "second choice" list (unless you were voting People's Party or Christian Heritage I suppose, not exactly a massive pool of voters there though).


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## budda

The first-past-the-post method is garbage and it would have been great if it had actually been changed. *Sigh*


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## BlackSG91

zappatton2 said:


> Natural Law was always too new age for me. I prefer the Rhinos, repealing the Law of Gravity and tearing down the Rockies to improve the coastal view are the sorts of public policy proposals I can really get behind.





zappatton2 said:


> Natural Law was always too new age for me. I prefer the Rhinos, repealing the Law of Gravity and tearing down the Rockies to improve the coastal view are the sorts of public policy proposals I can really get behind.



Tearing down the Rockies?!?!?! They probably wanted to build giant bicycle paths sloping downhill in both directions so that Canadians can coast from coast to coast. I guess you can say the Rhinoceros Party is like the 'Royal Canadian Air Farce' of politics. Didn't they also promise that Alimony payments would go directly to the federal government and that men would be allowed to work as prostitutes?


;>)/


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## StevenC

Drew said:


> Since this was bumped - and I don't know which was more surprising, learning that Canada had politics, or learning that I must have at some point known that since I'd _already posted in this thread _- in the 2020 election Massachusetts had a ballot initiative for ranked-choice voting similar to Maine's, which failed by a margin of about 10 points. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the ballot again, though, as it pretty clearly wasn't a good cycle for a fairly wonky question on how to change the way we tabulate votes in an election, and when it does I kind of hope it passes.


If only you guys had ranked choice voting, then it probably would have passed.


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## Xaios

BlackSG91 said:


> 'Royal Canadian Air Farce'


God, I miss that show. At least we have The Beaverton to fill the void.


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## Brutal08

Liberals including paintball and airsoft in the c21 gun ban.... The sports i am really enjoying since i completely destroyed my body in mma


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## Randy

Brutal08 said:


> paintball and airsoft in the c21 gun ban....



Ah, so American politics of the 80s/early 90s are Canadian politics of the 2020s.


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## BlackSG91

;>)/


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## TedEH

Brutal08 said:


> Liberals including paintball and airsoft in the c21 gun ban....


I've been out of the loop on this, so I went and read the C-21 page on the public safety site - I'm not seeing anything being banned except for the sale/transfer of "exact replicas" of restricted guns. I don't see a problem with this, nor do I see anything in the language of the bill that would stop anyone from enjoying paintball / airsoft.

If I missed something, feel free to point me in the right direction.


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## Brutal08

TedEH said:


> I've been out of the loop on this, so I went and read the C-21 page on the public safety site - I'm not seeing anything being banned except for the sale/transfer of "exact replicas" of restricted guns. I don't see a problem with this, nor do I see anything in the language of the bill that would stop anyone from enjoying paintball / airsoft.
> 
> If I missed something, feel free to point me in the right direction.



The thing is mostly every airssoft guns are considered 'exact replicas' in the bill it is also mentioning that every air shooting guns under 500 fps would be considered a prohibited device. Wich includes the non 'exact replicas'. 

You can take a look everything considering the ban of airsoft and paintball is prettt much there
https://www.savingairsoft.ca/


----------



## Drew

Randy said:


> Ah, so American politics of the 80s/early 90s are Canadian politics of the 2020s.


In that case, please don't follow our lead on criminal justice/welfare reform and the war on drugs, guys. It doesn't end well.


----------



## thebeesknees22

https://financialpost.com/real-esta...-funds-hunt-for-pandemic-real-estate-bargains

this ..just makes me really angry. Houses are hard enough to afford, and we have to compete with pension funds? This should be illegal. 

The same thing is happening in the US too, and it's screwing us all over. 

/vent over whew.. I've been looking to buy for the last couple of years and things skyrocketed so hard and fast that it's just impossible. I hate it so much. lol


----------



## Shoeless_jose

thebeesknees22 said:


> https://financialpost.com/real-esta...-funds-hunt-for-pandemic-real-estate-bargains
> 
> this ..just makes me really angry. Houses are hard enough to afford, and we have to compete with pension funds? This should be illegal.
> 
> The same thing is happening in the US too, and it's screwing us all over.
> 
> /vent over whew.. I've been looking to buy for the last couple of years and things skyrocketed so hard and fast that it's just impossible. I hate it so much. lol




I feel like from reading it and just general logic pension funds are buying up like office space and like multi unit buildings and complexes like REIT style. There is no way it would be worth their time going after houses on the scale of money they are dealing with.


----------



## thebeesknees22

depends on the city i suppose. Pension funds and other financial institutions are definitely going after regular houses in the US so it's pretty safe to say they're doing it in hot markets here too.

ex) in DC


----------



## Demiurge

The good news where I am is that residential prices are sky high, so there are likely few enticing bargains for investors to mop-up. The bad news is that residential prices are sky high.


----------



## thebeesknees22

I think they're going sky high everywhere. I should just sell everything and live out of my jeep....or just go live in a trailer park somewhere since that's all I'll be able to afford in a year or two if prices keep going up like they have been. ...Or maybe I'll buy a lot and dig a hole in the ground like a hobbit hole. Being underground should keep me warm in the canadian winter lol yes... yes I can see it now. Dirt floors and mud walls will be all the rage in 2022.


----------



## thebeesknees22

this is an interesting read.

https://betterdwelling.com/canada-s...-great-for-locals-good-for-foreign-investors/

Basically.... it's saying the government made this mess and they aren't in any way shape or form going to let the market drop. So .....what that means is if you aren't in the market now you probably won't ever be able to. I think we're screwed.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

thebeesknees22 said:


> this is an interesting read.
> 
> https://betterdwelling.com/canada-s...-great-for-locals-good-for-foreign-investors/
> 
> Basically.... it's saying the government made this mess and they aren't in any way shape or form going to let the market drop. So .....what that means is if you aren't in the market now you probably won't ever be able to. I think we're screwed.




Yeah it is definitely frustrating how they are just chosing to keep it out of reach of most. And seems on par with the whole older generation just climbing into the treefort and pulling the ladder up behind them. And then these people will get reverse mortgages on their grossly overvalued homes and pass on nothing to next generation and give it all to the banks. Its so maddening


----------



## nightflameauto

Dineley said:


> Yeah it is definitely frustrating how they are just chosing to keep it out of reach of most. And seems on par with the whole older generation just climbing into the treefort and pulling the ladder up behind them. And then these people will get reverse mortgages on their grossly overvalued homes and pass on nothing to next generation and give it all to the banks. Its so maddening


Don't forget the constant lectures about how lazy younger people are or they'd be doing just as well as they were in a much less hostile environment.


----------



## thebeesknees22

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cr...U6rbUKHLFcwoA22PscFomaiqNoqsk8QWXgOc1wTeR7Z0w

oh....ohhhh....... 

"Average price of Canadian home rising at fastest annual pace ever, now up to $716,828"

"sales in March up 70 per cent compared to a year ago and average prices up by more than 30 per cent."


...welp.. so much for that! It was nice to think about owning a home while it lasted.. Thanks government! ya'll really had the backs of the people...

helloooo serfdom!


----------



## Demiurge

Great Caesar's Ghost, that is nuts.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah..... I knew it was bad bad. I didn't know it was that bad bad. 

Between that and the government apparently saying they'll never let it drop 10% then well... ....wages sure as heck aren't going to go up to compensate sooo basically....we're all screwed if this is how things are going to stay.

The same thing is happening in the US just a bit slower.


----------



## budda

House prices won't drop, interest rates will jump.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeeep.... and incomes won't rise enough.

interest rates are going up to a little over 2% soon here. It'll have to go to 3-4% before it really makes a dent I think


----------



## budda

Incomes never rise, no


----------



## TedEH

I remember thinking a while back that I'd like to own a house some day. I had set some goals and stuff. The cost of homes in the areas I was aiming for has more than doubled since then.

...


----------



## thebeesknees22

@TedEH ..bloody hell.....

I think my retirement plan now is to live out of my jeep in the canadian wilderness. ...then get eaten by a bear and die.


----------



## Xaios

thebeesknees22 said:


> @TedEH ..bloody hell.....
> 
> I think my retirement plan now is to live out of my jeep in the canadian wilderness. ...then get eaten by a bear and die.


I think I'll join you.


----------



## TedEH

I'm at least in a spot where I like my current apartment, it's cheap, and I can get away with some music. I've been saying for a while that a change of scenery would be nice, and the place is starting to get rundown a bit, and I'm not about to renovate it myself cause it's a rental - but I basically can't move right now -> it'll be impossible to get anything with the same amount of space without doubling my rent, just 'cause I've been here so long and there's limits to how much they can raise rent per year.

I get asked sometimes why I live in Quebec despite the higher tax, since I work in Ontario and it's maybe 5 minutes away, but I could move into a shoebox in Ontario and the amount of extra rent I'd be paying is waaaaaay more than the extra tax I pay on this side.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah this is why having the housing markets out of the reach of the middle class is a big big problem. Rents will increase to match the mortgages. So even renters are going to be SOL soon if they leave their current places. 

QC is fast approaching the other provinces in terms of housing costs (or at least MTL is). It's still a bit cheaper now, but it's rising so fast it'll get there soon enough. No house that's not a fixer upper goes for less than $570k now in MTL, and that'll hit $600k before the end of summer if things don't slow down. I don't agree at all with QC's tax brackets. lol There's nothing anyone can say at this point that justifies it to me when I'm getting hit with 50% income taxes between provincial and federal taxes. They're way too high for a province and soon we'll be paying just as much for houses as other provinces AND we'll still be hit with super high taxes. If a province needs to take that much income from a person then either they're 1. super corrupt... or 2 just incompetent. lol I just don't agree with it at all, and never will. lol I think for cheaper housing, proper legislation to keep it lower is a better move than taxing the crap out of people.

For the shoe box apartment...yeah... i am not a fan of those. Been there and done that.

We may be doomed to that kind of Vancouver lifestyle at some point with the way things are going. It'll be like a minimalist era where we can't afford to own anything and people dump all of their income just to have a roof over their heads. ....and people can't afford to build a house farther out in the country because the price of materials has skyrocketed too.

One thing is for certain, the old "dream" of owning a place is gone or quickly leaving for all but the highest earners in society now here in Canada.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

thebeesknees22 said:


> yeah this is why having the housing markets out of the reach of the middle class is a big big problem. Rents will increase to match the mortgages. So even renters are going to be SOL soon if they leave their current places.
> 
> QC is fast approaching the other provinces in terms of housing costs (or at least MTL is). It's still a bit cheaper now, but it's rising so fast it'll get there soon enough. No house that's not a fixer upper goes for less than $570k now in MTL, and that'll hit $600k before the end of summer if things don't slow down. I don't agree at all with QC's tax brackets. lol There's nothing anyone can say at this point that justifies it to me when I'm getting hit with 50% income taxes between provincial and federal taxes. They're way too high for a province and soon we'll be paying just as much for houses as other provinces AND we'll still be hit with super high taxes. If a province needs to take that much income from a person then either they're 1. super corrupt... or 2 just incompetent. lol I just don't agree with it at all, and never will. lol I think for cheaper housing, proper legislation to keep it lower is a better move than taxing the crap out of people.
> 
> For the shoe box apartment...yeah... i am not a fan of those. Been there and done that.
> 
> We may be doomed to that kind of Vancouver lifestyle at some point with the way things are going. It'll be like a minimalist era where we can't afford to own anything and people dump all of their income just to have a roof over their heads. ....and people can't afford to build a house farther out in the country because the price of materials has skyrocketed too.
> 
> One thing is for certain, the old "dream" of owning a place is gone or quickly leaving for all but the highest earners in society now here in Canada.



All of this is true and its brutal for sure so discouraging. What the government seems to be forgetting is if so much of people's money is going to housing there won't be money for economic growth anywhere else.


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> 50% income taxes between provincial and federal taxes


In some fairness, you would have to be better off than most people to literally lose 50% of your income to taxes, given how the whole marginal thing works. I'm not rich by any stretch, but I'm considered "successful" by at least some standards (I'm certainly above the average income in my city - edit: Did some googling, and I guess this depends on how you define "average income"), and I manage to keep my taxes to a reasonable amount.

That's not a justification for high taxes, but something about 50% seems fishy to me - either that's not actually what you're being effectively taxed at, or you make buckets of money, or you're filing your taxes wrong. I kinda hope that it's the buckets of money one.


----------



## thebeesknees22

I'm definitely middle class. I'm not rich by any means. I wish I were though. ...I could afford a house then lol

But that's what i'm saying. I'm definitely NOT rich...and someone in the middle class, even if it's upper middle class shouldn't be taxed 50% between provincial and federal taxes. My provincial taxes are HIGHER...than my federal...which makes zero sense. 

But that is what gets taken out of my paycheck every paycheck. It's just shy of 50%. (if you take off the CPP it's like a few % points less). The only way I can get my taxes down is to max out my RRSP every year. .....and I don't make buckets of money because the gov takes half of it lol

It doesn't matter which way anyone spins it. QC's provincial taxes are way too high. lol


----------



## budda

What would your rate be in Ontario for comparison?


----------



## TedEH

Off the top of my head, ontario tax rates end up being about 10% lower.

(Some googling later)

To pick a random example: say you make 100k. Between fed and prov taxes together, your marginal rates would be around:
Quebec ~46%
Ontario ~43%

I don't have the math for Ontario, but I did do the math recently for Quebec to get the approximate effective rate in the end -> Being in that 46% bucket actually takes away about 33% of your gross income once you factor in all the marginal buckets up to that point. Keep in mind this is before any deductions at all. I'm not a tax expert, so this is my closest guess at what the real numbers balance out to be once you've filed everything.

Taking a lot more than you need from your pay is a great strategy for sure, but it's not fair to say "they're taking so much money" when you chose that strategy and a good chunk of that gets refunded right back to you.


----------



## TedEH

Don't get me wrong, that's still a lot of taxes.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Hmm... I'm going by wealthsimple's income tax calculator here so there's probably some leeway on the numbers.

QC
41.13% - average tax rate
49.96% - marginal tax rate

ON
36.81% - average tax rate
47.97% - marginal

BC
34.37% - average
45.80% - marginal

I can't make the same amount in ON though. So i can't like just move there and maintain the same with less taxes. Same with BC. I'd most likely take a paycut which would even things out. 

A 5% difference though between ON and QC is quite a lot. That's a few thousand bucks easy.


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> I can't make the same amount in ON though. So i can't like just move there and maintain the same with less taxes.


There's always some catch, hah. For all the "bad" about being in Quebec, moving to Ontario ends up being a bad move for a handful of reasons, even though people keep telling me Quebec is supposed to be the worse place to live financially. The difference in rent is easily more than the difference in taxes, for me at least.

Besides, despite the language barriers, I like Quebec.


----------



## thebeesknees22

lol indeed! There is always a catch!

I don't hate QC. I just think QC government does a pretty piss poor job on a lot of things. The people fine though. I actually like the weather believe it or not. lol The cold really doesn't bother me! lol


----------



## budda

When has more police power ever been a good idea?!

Why didnt they just listen to the experts this whole goddamn time?

Holy fuck this man is infuriating.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

budda said:


> When has more police power ever been a good idea?!
> 
> Why didnt they just listen to the experts this whole goddamn time?
> 
> Holy fuck this man is infuriating.




It's amazing how badly Ford has fumbled. Last summer he had managed to come out looking fairly competent but has just been fucking up hard last couple of months. Like all these numbers are climbing because everything is totally closed so people just gathering in homes with no masks. At least with restaurants there were strict limits and restaurants were in their best interest to enforce guidelines. 

Like the capacity at the grocery store is not what is causing numbers to go up.


----------



## budda

His script isnt a fix. People need paid time off, if you have to be at work you should be in line for a vaccination, and this should have been 6 weeks ago.

"Is there going to be a 3rd wave?" Yes because dumb.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

budda said:


> His script isnt a fix. People need paid time off, if you have to be at work you should be in line for a vaccination, and this should have been 6 weeks ago.
> 
> "Is there going to be a 3rd wave?" Yes because dumb.



Yeah all us dang young people working essential jobs for the vaccinated older people to come shop and have shit delivered while they scold us for not going right home after bagging their groceries.

Its such a joke. I may sound heartless but the hoops we are jumping through to protect people who have lived past average life expectancy age is crazy. Like every life lost is sad but like the people who are out keeping the world running need protecting too.

Anyways I feel like Im coming across as a huge asshole now. I understand the reason behind shutdowns just feel the current logic being apppied is junk.


----------



## thebeesknees22

I'm just catching up to the ON news. 

ok ok. so... I just watched the first minute of this:


Soooo....SOOoo... Cops can now stop whoever they want whenever they want without cause. And if someone doesn't answer their questions.... That person is then...breaking..the law....
....
...
..
.and they can be issued a ticket.
...................
A person ....can now be issued a ticket just for not answering a cops question... what....the.. heck.


----------



## budda

27% of London's vaccines indefinitely diverted despite a postal code by Western having one of the highest cases in the province (country?). Cool...


----------



## thebeesknees22

Wow...that's... 

I have no words..


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> Wow...that's...
> 
> I have no words..



I became a "why do i live here" person overnight.


----------



## thebeesknees22

lol sorry dude.

hopefully more vaccines can come soon.

what a mess...


----------



## zappatton2

thebeesknees22 said:


> I'm just catching up to the ON news.
> 
> ok ok. so... I just watched the first minute of this:
> 
> 
> Soooo....SOOoo... Cops can now stop whoever they want whenever they want without cause. And if someone doesn't answer their questions.... That person is then...breaking..the law....
> ....
> ...
> ..
> .and they can be issued a ticket.
> ...................
> A person ....can now be issued a ticket just for not answering a cops question... what....the.. heck.


Yeah, I'm all for restrictive measures to get the spread under control, but this, this is not good. Hard to see how that kind of authority won't get abused to some extent.


----------



## budda

zappatton2 said:


> Yeah, I'm all for restrictive measures to get the spread under control, but this, this is not good. Hard to see how that kind of authority won't get abused to some extent.



There are 100% going to be shitty people who are cops who are ecstatic about this. And there will 100% be minority Canadians who get targeted.

We need paid time off...


----------



## zappatton2

budda said:


> There are 100% going to be shitty people who are cops who are ecstatic about this. And there will 100% be minority Canadians who get targeted.
> 
> We need paid time off...


Preeeee-cisely!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

It's feeling very "America" in here. 

My condolences.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's feeling very "America" in here.
> 
> My condolences.



Yep.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

Hey @budda whats the deal with vaccine diversion?? Where they diverting too??


----------



## budda

@Dineley gotta find that out.

Edit: https://london.ctvnews.ca/drop-in-c...emporarily-close-vaccination-centre-1.5390637

So yeah, sending doses to Toronto and Ottawa despite needing them just as much.

Awesome.

I'm sure my friends who work in healthcare and education and actual essential services are thrilled .


----------



## BlackMastodon

thebeesknees22 said:


> lol sorry dude.
> 
> hopefully more vaccines can come soon.
> 
> what a mess...


My gf and I were talking about this the other night and I half-jokingly said we probably won't even get our first vaccine before the end of the year at this rate and then I was immediately sad.

Also good job, Dougie, way to give police more power for stop-and-search bullshit. Meanwhile every anti-mask protest/gathering/anything goes unpunished. Fine the people that are actively working against everyone and making this worse. 

The silver lining is that a lot of cities' police departments have come out and said they will not be doing this. But that's just taking them at their word. 

This feels like a bit of a slap in the face for all the times I teased my American coworkers about our free healthcare...


----------



## Shoeless_jose

BlackMastodon said:


> My gf and I were talking about this the other night and I half-jokingly said we probably won't even get our first vaccine before the end of the year at this rate and then I was immediately sad.
> 
> Also good job, Dougie, way to give police more power for stop-and-search bullshit. Meanwhile every anti-mask protest/gathering/anything goes unpunished. Fine the people that are actively working against everyone and making this worse.



I'm amazed at the amount of Trumper esque vibes from people in Ontario all over my IG people going off about their rights and "do you ever wonder how things happened in Nazi Germany sheep" as if making the small sacrifice to wear a mask to protect someone vulnerable means you would be down with genocide.

Like I 100% agree it all sucks and its a pain but like the tin foil hat bullshit and like crap about like having their behaviour legislated is insane. Like where is the outrage at people who want to be allowed to drive through red lights.


----------



## JSanta

Dineley said:


> I'm amazed at the amount of Trumper esque vibes from people in Ontario all over my IG people going off about their rights and "do you ever wonder how things happened in Nazi Germany sheep" as if making the small sacrifice to wear a mask to protect someone vulnerable means you would be down with genocide.
> 
> Like I 100% agree it all sucks and its a pain but like the tin foil hat bullshit and like crap about like having their behaviour legislated is insane. Like where is the outrage at people who want to be allowed to drive through red lights.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-police-random-spot-checks-1.5991872

At the very least, it's good to see that the Police have pushed back, and that some of Doug's trumper tendencies were put in check.


----------



## budda

There was a statement but I fully expect stories about people getting pulled over to filter in.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

JSanta said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-police-random-spot-checks-1.5991872
> 
> At the very least, it's good to see that the Police have pushed back, and that some of Doug's trumper tendencies were put in check.




I'd say citizens are the ones acting like Trump supporters. Ford is blowing it hard but hes not denying covid just grossly mishandling it all


----------



## TedEH

Speaking of Canadian Covid Things - today they start closing the borders into Ontario, which really sucks as someone who lives right on the other side of that border. Granted, I don't *need* to go into Ontario most of the time - but the idea that I'm separated from my jam room / drum kit for who-knows-how-long doesn't sit well. Other things on the opposite side of the border include my office and most of the people I know, who, yeah, I know I'm not visiting them anyway, but the principle still stings.


----------



## BlackMastodon

Been almost a month. Gf and I got our first shot of Pfizer on Thursday since we live in one of the hot spot areas in the province and could take advantage of the 18+ timeline. I'm seeing stats that over 7 million people are at least partially vaccinated in Ontario, but it would be super nice if they opened up outdoor activities before the end of the month. I was planning on going paintballing to Wasaga Beach for my brother's bachelor party but that's not gonna happen now unless there's a miracle.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

BlackMastodon said:


> Been almost a month. Gf and I got our first shot of Pfizer on Thursday since we live in one of the hot spot areas in the province and could take advantage of the 18+ timeline. I'm seeing stats that over 7 million people are at least partially vaccinated in Ontario, but it would be super nice if they opened up outdoor activities before the end of the month. I was planning on going paintballing to Wasaga Beach for my brother's bachelor party but that's not gonna happen now unless there's a miracle.




Yeah the silliness of the policies. Like not allowing back country camping is really helping stop Covid.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Quebec is proposing changes with the language laws again. I wonder how this is going to go, and what impact it'll have. Very interesting whether you're for it or against it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-bill-101-language-revamp-1.6023532

My industry is largely made up of immigrants so I can see it having an impact on vfx with that last bullet point. But vfx is in a world of its own, and it can't be used as a measuring stick for the real world.

I will say though....lol... if QC wants to be called a nation then we shouldn't be taking so much in federal aide. That's in a way putting themselves above the other provinces. If they're going to do that then the other provinces shouldn't prop QC up so much haha


----------



## TedEH

French isn't something that needs to be "protected". Culture is not something that needs to be preserved, it should be shared and adapted and grown and used to bring people together. This is just yet another big F you to us anglophones who have made Quebec our home for a long time. It's a clear message that we're not welcome here. We're second-class citizens at best.

It's just tribalism/racism/etc wearing a different mask.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Agreed @TedEH 

It's unfortunate. But the message is clear as you said. It seems like one step closer to QC separating too. They probably would if it weren't for all the federal money they take in from elsewhere.


----------



## TedEH

Stuff like that puts me in an awkward position of both really liking it here and really disliking it here. 90% of people don't care about the language thing and just want to go about their day. I've never had neighbours who were unfriendly for that reason, and most adults in public are perfectly respectful about the language barrier when at checkout counters etc.

Combining that with the WFH thing makes me wonder at times if I'd be better off trying to find another place to live since I can arguably work from anywhere with good internet - maybe pick some place I've never been, which I guess would make die-hard nationalist Quebecers happy to see me go.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah i think it's the same case as is a lot of places. Just the very loud and vocal minority ends up pushing the agenda. This will most likely pass I'm guessing. I wonder if there will be any fallout like the last time. I'm already looking to move next year, but it was before this came about and it's for other reasons. 

If you're happy here though, no reason to move until things get to a point where it's too difficult. On the other hand if you can live anywhere, and covid is on it's way out then you could adventure around and still get paid! I suppose you would need a permanent address though. 

My job should be wfh anywhere, but we're being told we'll have to go back to the office at the end of the year or in early 2022. It's dumb.... especially when we've already proved it's possible to do vfx from home and keep security tight.


----------



## Xaios

Damn...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...-kamloops-indian-residential-school-1.6043778


----------



## zappatton2

Yeah, I saw that on the news today, quite the horror story, I do hope the few MPs and MPPs who were downplaying the impact of residential schools to score the usual anti-politically-correct points might finally eat their words, and those still around who may have played a part in this are brought to justice.


----------



## TedEH

Well that's terrible.


----------



## soliloquy

I find i keep losing hope and being restless with the Canadian politics. We aren't as black and white as the States, as we do have more than 2 parties to vote for. 
My issue is that whatever good (regardless of how you see it) party A does, it gets override by party B when they get elected, and they keep undermining one another. No real progress is done in one direction or another as the two big parties, Conservatives and Liberals keep winning.

To make things worse, the longer a certain party stays in power, the more the opposing party will undo when they, inevitably, get voted in. 

Maybe the NDP or Green party can do a bigger change if they get to stay in power for a prolong period of time as majority seats.


----------



## nightflameauto

soliloquy said:


> I find i keep losing hope and being restless with the Canadian politics. We aren't as black and white as the States, as we do have more than 2 parties to vote for.
> My issue is that whatever good (regardless of how you see it) party A does, it gets override by party B when they get elected, and they keep undermining one another. No real progress is done in one direction or another as the two big parties, Conservatives and Liberals keep winning.
> 
> To make things worse, the longer a certain party stays in power, the more the opposing party will undo when they, inevitably, get voted in.
> 
> Maybe the NDP or Green party can do a bigger change if they get to stay in power for a prolong period of time as majority seats.


As an American, let me just say this scenario sounds vaguely familiar to me.


----------



## budda

No posts about a family of 5 being mowed down in a hate crime on Sunday with 4 dead?


----------



## TedEH

Isn't that pattern by design? Without consensus about what really constitutes positive progress, it wouldn't take much for whoever is in power to run off in whatever extreme, without anything to keep them in check - which is a bad thing regardless of what team you're on. The way things are, we make progress, but we make _slow_ progress.


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> No posts about a family of 5 being mowed down in a hate crime on Sunday with 4 dead?


Hadn't heard about it.
Link?


----------



## JSanta

nightflameauto said:


> As an American, let me just say this scenario sounds vaguely familiar to me.



While there are similarities, I think there are enough differences to note. Some basic human rights, like access to abortion, same sex marriage, and LGBTQ rights at least federally are not up for discussion nearly to the extent as we see here in the States. There are conservative pushes against abortion, as an example, but even the Harper regime realized it was not smart of them to touch that right. 

I haven't lived in Canada for many years, but I do see more of a left/right divide within the past decade. I think that is something not unique to Canada. The push against globalisation, and a swing to the right has been happening all over the world. What I like about Canada is that the Greens and NDP do have some level of power, and I like the ideas of coalition government.

Canada is not perfect. The hate crime and brutal murder of a Muslim family this past week highlights that terrorism against our Muslim neighbors are under attack there as well. There is also the dark history of Indigenous human rights crimes and violations. I hope that Canada reckons with this better than we have in the States, where I feel like we've largely ignored that population and effectively brushed under the rug all of the ongoing crimes and lack of any real support for those communities. There's a lot of room for improvement, we all have to own that.


----------



## JSanta

TedEH said:


> Hadn't heard about it.
> Link?



https://www.reuters.com/world/ameri...-islamic-hate-crime-canada-police-2021-06-07/


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> Hadn't heard about it.
> Link?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/muslim-killing-vigil-mosque-1.6058653

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/terrorism-charges-london-muslim-1.6057483
https://london.ctvnews.ca/community...ling-of-muslim-family-in-london-ont-1.5460342


----------



## TedEH

I guess there's not much to say other than it's pretty sad.


----------



## budda

Local news outlet uses pic of murderer smiling with fish for an article. Fuck you LFP.


----------



## soliloquy

budda said:


> No posts about a family of 5 being mowed down in a hate crime on Sunday with 4 dead?



I drove up to the vigil last night in London, Ontario. I was pleasantly surprised at the turnout. 
I wasn't expecting Jagmeet Singh there, but it was nice to see that representatives of all parties present there.
I do find it odd that Bloc party was there discussing how this isn't Canada and it shouldn't happen here...yet the same party also forbid the hijab to be worn in public service places, in favor of a more secular aspect. Maybe I'm lacking the basic understanding here, but those two things seem at complete odds with one another. 

And as tragic as these events are, I am actually happy to see that the death of this family is reaching world wide. I found out about this through BBC, on their home page. Muslims are being targeted all over the world, and as tragic as those events are, they dont really get as much publicity as this is getting. Sure, the shooting in New Zealand was big; the shooting in the mosque in Quebec was big, but I have yet to see anything reach this level. 

What also surprises me is that this act was carried out by a person aged 20. Id consider that super young, but how much hate can a 20 year old develop? I was listening to the radio, and forgot the name of the person who said this (former politician, if memory serves me correct) saying that the 20 year old may have acted independently, but we should note that he wasn't independent in developing that ideology. He was raised in a racist city that has been pretending to not be racist. 

I think we should call it what it is. 

Canada. Is. A. Racist. Country. That. Pretends. Its. Not. 

Sure, racism exists world wide. There certainly are racist people all over the world. But a nation should be called racist if there is even ONE person within their land that is racist. Kind of like being as strong as the weakest link.


----------



## budda

Yeah the 20yo murderer thing alarmed me a lot. I want to know how he was so radicalized as to do this.


----------



## USMarine75

I thought this was an interesting take on what might have happened if either side in the (US vs Canada/Britain) War of 1812 decisively won.





budda said:


> Yeah the 20yo murderer thing alarmed me a lot. I want to know how he was so radicalized as to do this.



WTF is going on in Canada? You were the "normal" America.


----------



## Matt08642

budda said:


> Yeah the 20yo murderer thing alarmed me a lot. I want to know how he was so radicalized as to do this.



*gestures broadly at the last 5 years on Earth


----------



## budda

USMarine75 said:


> I thought this was an interesting take on what might have happened if either side in the (US vs Canada/Britain) War of 1812 decisively won.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF is going on in Canada? You were the "normal" America.




The "normal america" was a lie we were happy to spread


----------



## nightflameauto

budda said:


> The "normal america" was a lie we were happy to spread


I was always under the impression that "normal" in "normal america" was code for "not so many assholes." I think for the most part that still rings true based on my limited interactions with Canadians in real life.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Canada is pretty much just America without the gun violence and better healthcare. It just seems so foreign because of how absolutely nuts it is down here because of those two things.


----------



## TedEH

I feel like our racism takes some very different forms too.


----------



## thebeesknees22

There is gun violence here from time to time, but not quite on the same scale as the US. 

There was someone shot not far from my apartment not long ago here in MTL, and there have been mass shootings here and there throughout Canada.

Both the US and Canada have their good sides, and both have their real bad sides. There are just a lot more people in the US so you see a lot more bad vs Canada. We're talking like 10x's as many people down south.


----------



## TedEH

I've had jobs working with American companies where we had as many customers/accounts as there were people in all of Canada at the time.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

thebeesknees22 said:


> There is gun violence here from time to time, but not quite on the same scale as the US.
> 
> There was someone shot not far from my apartment not long ago here in MTL, and there have been mass shootings here and there throughout Canada.
> 
> Both the US and Canada have their good sides, and both have their real bad sides. There are just a lot more people in the US so you see a lot more bad vs Canada. We're talking like 10x's as many people down south.



Our murder rate is over 20 times higher than Canada _per capita_.


----------



## thebeesknees22

.

edit: lol, deleted comment. not worth arguing over.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> I feel like our racism takes some very different forms too.



Different how?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

thebeesknees22 said:


> yeah but that will go up the more tightly packed people are.
> 
> Same reason cities tend to have higher crime rates per capita vs small towns.



It's sort of hard to get an idea of density between the two, because so much of Canada is uninhabited. 

I don't think 10 times the population, but nearly 25 times the per capita homicide rate seems right. For 2019, that looked like 651 vs. 16,425. 

It just seems like an excuse. When you compare similarly populated regions we still have higher instances of violent crime, gun crime, and homicide by at least a factor of ten.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah sure. Like I said. Not arguing with you over it lol

Feel free to keep going though. ha


----------



## zappatton2

budda said:


> No posts about a family of 5 being mowed down in a hate crime on Sunday with 4 dead?


Yeah, I was gonna post that here when it happened, but it got to the point that an act of right-wing terrorism that snuffed out a family, so recently following the news of a mass grave of _children _on home soil just kinda shut me down. What do you even say at this point? I mean, I know we need to keep talking, keep pushing back against this, but I had to take a breather from the news for a couple of days, it's fucking heartbreaking.


----------



## budda

zappatton2 said:


> Yeah, I was gonna post that here when it happened, but it got to the point that an act of right-wing terrorism that snuffed out a family, so recently following the news of a mass grave of _children _on home soil just kinda shut me down. What do you even say at this point? I mean, I know we need to keep talking, keep pushing back against this, but I had to take a breather from the news for a couple of days, it's fucking heartbreaking.



I had to stop following the residential school thread. I hope the london free press gets globally lit up for trying to humanize the killer, and not using a mug shot.


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> Different how?


I mean, there's been lots of discussion around how about how Canada is "just as racist" as the US, just sometimes in different ways. It's not that we're _not_ racist. It's just not as much a "you'll get shot for being black" kind of racism and more a "you'll get abducted and forgotten about for being native" kind of racism.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> I mean, there's been lots of discussion around how about how Canada is "just as racist" as the US, just sometimes in different ways. It's not that we're _not_ racist. It's just not as much a "you'll get shot for being black" kind of racism and more a "you'll get abducted and forgotten about for being native" kind of racism.



Gotcha.


----------



## TedEH

I sometimes describe Quebec's anti-anglophone sentiment as a sort of racism, but, unsurprisingly, not everyone likes when I say that.


----------



## soliloquy

not surprising they found another location
https://www.abbynews.com/news/104-p...ite-of-former-residential-school-in-manitoba/

i think they should cancel Canada day this year


----------



## Xaios

soliloquy said:


> i think they should cancel Canada day this year


I kind of agree with you, although I very much doubt that will happen. However, the tone of Canada Day will need to change, it will need to be about confronting the sins of the past, not celebrating a the idea of a country that is, historically, a lie for many of its citizens.


----------



## budda

Xaios said:


> I kind of agree with you, although I very much doubt that will happen. However, the tone of Canada Day will need to change, it will need to be about confronting the sins of the past, not celebrating a the idea of a country that is, historically, a lie for many of its citizens.



That should be the only acceptable Canada Day. Reparations and honest conversations about what this country has done and continues to do.


----------



## soliloquy

I was discussing this with my friends the other day. Reconciliation is a big deal and it is not easy.
an apology is not going to do it, but it is a start. 

however, maybe a part of reconciliation would be to adapt the ways of aboriginal people in administration. As in, rather than looking at aboriginal as 'Europeans vs them', learn their policies, and see if there is any overlap in their decision making. Incorporate them in our laws and governing bodies. 

and in terms of Canada day, if not cancel Canada day all across the country, then perhaps cancel it in any city that either had residential schools, or some sort of atrocities took place there. 

They have cut down fireworks when it was raining. This is far more severe than rain or a storm. we celebrate at their loss. thats not cool.


----------



## thebeesknees22

On another note:

https://granthshala.com/condo-devel...f-single-family-houses-in-canada-for-rentals/

well...that sucks. But it just reaffirms that it wasn't just people buying up all the property. It's happening in the US too. Fun times.


----------



## JSanta

thebeesknees22 said:


> On another note:
> 
> https://granthshala.com/condo-devel...f-single-family-houses-in-canada-for-rentals/
> 
> well...that sucks. But it just reaffirms that it wasn't just people buying up all the property. It's happening in the US too. Fun times.



Part of the problem both in Canada and the States is that our governments actively allow foreign purchase of housing as well as what the article has described. Would Vancouver be as expensive if the government had put stricter residency and use laws in place? I was looking at homes near my grandmother in Port Perry, Ontario, and those properties are now in excess of a million dollars. 

The one area in which many individuals could cultivate wealth has been completely pushed out of their hands. It should be a huge concern for our federal governments, if not state/provincial governments, but taxes are being paid, so it appears they don't much care. I do think we need stricter laws that govern investment property purchasing (maybe someone smarter than me like Drew could outline a framework) that would allow normal people a way to break into the property market.


----------



## soliloquy

JSanta said:


> Part of the problem both in Canada and the States is that our governments actively allow foreign purchase of housing as well as what the article has described. Would Vancouver be as expensive if the government had put stricter residency and use laws in place? I was looking at homes near my grandmother in Port Perry, Ontario, and those properties are now in excess of a million dollars.
> 
> The one area in which many individuals could cultivate wealth has been completely pushed out of their hands. It should be a huge concern for our federal governments, if not state/provincial governments, but taxes are being paid, so it appears they don't much care. I do think we need stricter laws that govern investment property purchasing (maybe someone smarter than me like Drew could outline a framework) that would allow normal people a way to break into the property market.



Though i mostly agree that yes, Canada (or North America) can greatly benefit from stricter laws, one of the many issues in Canada is its size-to-population-to-resources-to-raw material-to-funds ratio. yes, that is complicated, but what i mean is Canada is in dire need for more funds that would be thrown into the economy to make it run better/faster. if there is no money being put into the country, the government cant utilize those same funds to invest into other things and grow accordingly. Because we have a MASSIVE country that is sparsely populated, and we need a lot of money to go towards infrastructure, the added funds that are coming from skyrocketing prices of real estate is helping the country as a whole.

however, the other side of the coin makes it SUPER difficult for Canadians to buy homes. 

perhaps, if we put stricter laws on foreign buyers, or people with multiple properties, it may have to raise our taxes even higher to keep up with the requirement to keep this massive piece of land functioning. 

you either help the country from outside help, so it can grow outwards....or put stricter laws, allowing its citizens to buy properties, and allowing them to grow internally. Maybe both sides cant co-exist at the same time?


----------



## Xaios

JSanta said:


> Part of the problem both in Canada and the States is that our governments actively allow foreign purchase of housing as well as what the article has described. Would Vancouver be as expensive if the government had put stricter residency and use laws in place? I was looking at homes near my grandmother in Port Perry, Ontario, and those properties are now in excess of a million dollars.
> 
> The one area in which many individuals could cultivate wealth has been completely pushed out of their hands. It should be a huge concern for our federal governments, if not state/provincial governments, but taxes are being paid, so it appears they don't much care. I do think we need stricter laws that govern investment property purchasing (maybe someone smarter than me like Drew could outline a framework) that would allow normal people a way to break into the property market.


Agreed. Another problem is that it's self-perpetuating by means of the taxes. Many individuals and families who do own houses, and have for decades, are asset-rich (purely due to skyrocketing property values) but cash-poor, and they're going to get slowly crushed by the weight of property taxes to the point where they'll be forced to sell because they can no longer afford said taxes. Individuals and families won't be in a position to pay the asking price based on market conditions, which will mean the only ones who could afford to buy will be the very same developers and rental agencies that pushed them out in the first place, thus perpetuating the cycle.


----------



## thebeesknees22

i think there could definitely be a better balance. Getting to a point where your own people can't own the property in their own country is really bad. 

My plan now is to just save up as much as possible as fast as possible and go buy some place off in the middle of nowhere and get it paid off as soon as possible so I can at least have somewhere to retire with no mortgage. The last thing I want is to be paying $2k in rent at 80 yrs old and still having to maintain a full time job just to get by. (and that's exactly what anyone 40 and below is looking at... working full time until death)


----------



## Xaios

thebeesknees22 said:


> i think there could definitely be a better balance. Getting to a point where your own people can't own the property in their own country is really bad.
> 
> My plan now is to just save up as much as possible as fast as possible and go buy some place off in the middle of nowhere and get it paid off as soon as possible


I do live in the middle of nowhere, and prices are still fucked. Good luck.


----------



## thebeesknees22

lol damnit.

How about the yukon? should be nice by 2050 with global warming right?


----------



## Xaios

thebeesknees22 said:


> lol damnit.
> 
> How about the yukon? should be nice by 2050 with global warming right?


That's where I am, not even kidding.


----------



## Xaios

Well, at least one good thing to come out of today is that prosecutors had the stones to add terrorism to Nathaniel Veltman's list of criminal charges.


----------



## soliloquy

thebeesknees22 said:


> lol damnit.
> 
> How about the yukon? should be nice by 2050 with global warming right?



I cant speak from experience, but ive had several clients of mine (in the past) from Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut complaining about grapes costing upwards of $30/lbs; milk bags over $20; cabbage and other things also equally insane. Just to challenge it, i went onto google, found a random city in Nunavut, and google imaged it; first few pictures were of price tags from grocery stores there.

Yes, jobs there also do pay a lot. But cost of living is also insanely high there. 

funnily enough, a friend of mine used to live in Yukon (cant recall where in Yukon), but she was telling me that she lives near the water there on the main land. People have to be very careful to do their grocery shopping, as if they dont time it right, they may get stranded on main land, when they live across the body of water. In winter it freezes over, and when it starts to thaw, you're stuck on main land for a few days/weeks/months until they can add a boat or something that will take them back home. 

likewise, in Winston, when the train tracks got damaged a few years back, the city was stranded from the rest of the country. 

you'd think that these issues wont be faced by Canada, a country that is NOT considered a developing country.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Daaaaaaaaaaaumn, $20 for milk. I thought the $6 I was paying here in MTL was expensive lol


----------



## soliloquy

thebeesknees22 said:


> Daaaaaaaaaaaumn, $20 for milk. I thought the $6 I was paying here in MTL was expensive lol



mind you, i haven't dealt with any clients since summer of 2018. Those prices are for back then. I'm not sure how things are now with covid, and just in general. But yeah, cost of living up there is rather high; sadly.


----------



## Xaios

soliloquy said:


> funnily enough, a friend of mine used to live in Yukon (cant recall where in Yukon), but she was telling me that she lives near the water there on the main land. People have to be very careful to do their grocery shopping, as if they dont time it right, they may get stranded on main land, when they live across the body of water. In winter it freezes over, and when it starts to thaw, you're stuck on main land for a few days/weeks/months until they can add a boat or something that will take them back home.


By your description, she lives on the Top of the World Highway in West Dawson. When the Yukon river is clear during warmer seasons, there's a ferry across it, and then in the winter there's an ice road over it. While the river is freezing, or when it's thawing and they're waiting for the ice to crack, there's no access. Anyone living on the western side of the river has to be prepared to go it alone for a couple months.

While Whitehorse is definitely expensive as far as property goes, groceries are roughly on par with down south because it's still got regular highway access, as is the case with most of the Yukon. Most of NWT and Nunavut are a different story. Places with super-high grocery and consumer goods prices are places that are at the end of long gravel highways like Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk, fly-in-only communities (although that sometimes have ice-roads in the winter, and some have boat access on the ocean, although that's still super expensive) like Old Crow and Rankin Inlet, and Arctic Archipelago communities like Iqaluit, Resolute, Cambridge Bay and Grise Fjord.


----------



## soliloquy

Xaios said:


> By your description, she lives on the Top of the World Highway in West Dawson. When the Yukon river is clear during warmer seasons, there's a ferry across it, and then in the winter there's an ice road over it. While the river is freezing, or when it's thawing and they're waiting for the ice to crack, there's no access. Anyone living on the western side of the river has to be prepared to go it alone for a couple months.
> 
> While Whitehorse is definitely expensive as far as property goes, groceries are roughly on par with down south because it's still got regular highway access, as is the case with most of the Yukon. Most of NWT and Nunavut are a different story. Places with super-high grocery and consumer goods prices are places that are at the end of long gravel highways like Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk, fly-in-only communities (although that sometimes have ice-roads in the winter, and some have boat access on the ocean, although that's still super expensive) like Old Crow and Rankin Inlet, and Arctic Archipelago communities like Iqaluit, Resolute, Cambridge Bay and Grise Fjord.



Man, Canada is so fascinating! 
and thank you for the quick geography lesson too!

I am now debating between Yukon or Nova Scotia in September/October
Yukon has the potential of northern lights.
Nova Scotia will have nice-ish fall colors. They dont have maple trees there as much as Quebec and Ontario, so their fall may not be as colorful.


----------



## Xaios

soliloquy said:


> Yukon has the potential of northern lights.
> Nova Scotia will have nice-ish fall colors. They dont have maple trees there as much as Quebec and Ontario, so their fall may not be as colorful.


In fairness, it's been a few years since I've personally seen really good northern lights. It's not that they don't happen, but they're hard to catch. It's also been a lot cloudier and rainier (at least in Whitehorse) the past couple years than it normally is.

The Yukon also has nice autumn colors. The only caveat is that they happen in August.


----------



## BlackMastodon

Double post.


----------



## BlackMastodon

Re: cost of living and prices of various things in Canada:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/inflation-may-canada-1.6067484 

That article about the condo developer investing $1B (!!) into single family homes is insane. The government really needs to step in on foreign and corporate investors buying up all the property they can get their hands on and fucking over most of the population. The average person born and raised in Windsor will never be able to afford a house here if nothing is done, and this is still one of the cheapest cities to live in the country. 

Since my partner and I will now have 2 rental properties, I would love to see help from the government for private citizens investing in real estate. So far, I haven't seen any practices that punish us, but the cash-poor/asset-rich aspect is a bit of a knife edge. The only reason we were able to get to the point of having 2 rental properties is because of our very lucky situation and taking advantage of buying our first home before the real estate market here started taking off, which we put a shitload of work into to increase the value of it.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Yeah the housing thing sucks.  

I pretty much gave up on owning a home in Canada at this point. I'm now looking at trying to get a place back in the US if I can save enough fast enough before things get too high there too.


----------



## BlackMastodon

thebeesknees22 said:


> Yeah the housing thing sucks.
> 
> I pretty much gave up on owning a home in Canada at this point. I'm now looking at trying to get a place back in the US if I can save enough fast enough before things get too high there too.


I'm just waiting to see the gentrification of coal-country, KY.


----------



## nightflameauto

thebeesknees22 said:


> Yeah the housing thing sucks.
> 
> I pretty much gave up on owning a home in Canada at this point. I'm now looking at trying to get a place back in the US if I can save enough fast enough before things get too high there too.


Good luck. The house next door to us sold for around $20k 20 years ago when we moved in. Last year it sold for $85k and it's currently getting offers from property swappers upwards of 120k, which seems ridiculous as it's a tiny little thing with a non-attached single car garage and a very small yard. I'm glad we bought when we did or we'd be forever stuck with rental properties. I thank my wife for her foresight on that one.


----------



## thebeesknees22

@nightflameauto - yeah it's similar back home. Houses that were going for $140k a year ago are going for $200k+ now.........wtf... 

@BlackMastodon - Just wait till Cali becomes a desert wasteland in a few more years like in the Book of Eli. They'll all be moving to the midwest and south. It'll happen before you know it. lol


----------



## soliloquy

the other thing i dont like is how our tenant laws protect the tenant, where as the long owners, sadly get minimal in return.
for example, i am renting a property to John Doe. John loses his job (covid or otherwise), and now cant pay rent. The banks wont support me, the government wont support me. I cant kick out the tenant to find another tenant who will pay. 






in other news, i was thinking regarding the mass grave of BC that was recently discovered. Sure, the catholic church should take responsibility, more than Canada. However, if the catholic church does take ownership over it, then they must also do the same to ALL colonized people world wide. Given the tract record, they probably wont outride confirm their deeds openly until its surfaced. So that, most likely wont do.

Another way that can be done is, currently, Canadian tax payers pay towards catholic school boards (odd how other schools like Jewish, Islamic, Hindu etc schools are privately funded). instead of the Canadian tax payers paying for catholic schools, maybe we should defund the catholic schools, and send the same money towards reserves to give them clean drinking water (as a start).


----------



## soliloquy

also...properties less than $500k? where do you all live?! I bought my first property in 2018 for $520. Selling it now for $720k.
got another property that i'll be moving into. Got that prebuilt in 2019 for $649. Now the same property is worth approx $910k. 

finding a property less than $500k seems so weird to me...


----------



## nightflameauto

soliloquy said:


> also...properties less than $500k? where do you all live?! I bought my first property in 2018 for $520. Selling it now for $720k.
> got another property that i'll be moving into. Got that prebuilt in 2019 for $649. Now the same property is worth approx $910k.
> 
> finding a property less than $500k seems so weird to me...


I'm in South Dakota, in the largest city in the state, in what's considered the "middle-poor" part of town. And our houses in the area are pretty small. If not for the converted garage we use as a bedroom, we'd be bursting out of our current home.

The part of town where my dad lived before moving to Minnesota on the other hand, is the "nice" part of town and finding a home there for under 800k is not gonna happen no matter how small it is. No way, no how.


----------



## thebeesknees22

wow @soliloquy - High roller! That's way out of my price range to do on my own with my single income.


----------



## soliloquy

thebeesknees22 said:


> wow @soliloquy - High roller! That's way out of my price range to do on my own with my single income.



it just sounds more impressive than it actually is. 
i used about 20 years of my savings into part of the down payment. My partner put in the remaining half, for a total of $110k down payment. 
and because equity and prices are rising so fast, it gave us the opportunity to move into a bigger property. 

i also fully acknowledge that i was/am very privelaged to be able to save for such a long period of time, while putting myself through school, and working constantly. I'm not saying that EVERYONE can do it. Just my life circumstances gave me the opportunity to do so. on a single income, i certainly wont be able to pull this off. 


(i'm not saying any of this to make others feel worse about themselves, or make me feel better about myself. just we, as humans, are so different, and limited by circumstances. you may have things in your life i wish i had, etc).


----------



## thebeesknees22

ahhhh you had the old man savings before things skyrocketed. lol Lucky!

I just managed to save up enough just a tad after things went crazy. It was within reach then BOOM! The universe was like PSYCH SUCKA!! lol


----------



## BlackMastodon

soliloquy said:


> the other thing i dont like is how our tenant laws protect the tenant, where as the long owners, sadly get minimal in return.
> for example, i am renting a property to John Doe. John loses his job (covid or otherwise), and now cant pay rent. The banks wont support me, the government wont support me. I cant kick out the tenant to find another tenant who will pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in other news, i was thinking regarding the mass grave of BC that was recently discovered. Sure, the catholic church should take responsibility, more than Canada. However, if the catholic church does take ownership over it, then they must also do the same to ALL colonized people world wide. Given the tract record, they probably wont outride confirm their deeds openly until its surfaced. So that, most likely wont do.
> 
> Another way that can be done is, currently, Canadian tax payers pay towards catholic school boards (odd how other schools like Jewish, Islamic, Hindu etc schools are privately funded). instead of the Canadian tax payers paying for catholic schools, maybe we should defund the catholic schools, and send the same money towards reserves to give them clean drinking water (as a start).


There are loopholes to get tenants evicted, but they still probably take a long time and can be fraught. But basically I'd have to move into the rental myself or have an immediate family member move in in order to get them kicked out, tlans that's still with 60 days notice. 

Maybe the government/banks should provide some relief to the land owner of the tenant can prove they lost their source of income and are actively searching for another. Maybe that way people don't get kicked out of their homes because landlords are forced to pay the mortgage and taxes on a home out of their own pocket while someone else is living there. And maybe that could even alleviate some of the homeless population. Hmmmm. 

It's crazy as hell to think that my rent in 2016 was $700+/month for a 3 bedroom apartment in a duplex (which was still fairly low) and average rent for a 3 bedroom now is closer to $2000. I don't even want to know what rent is like in Toronto or Vancouver.

And as someone who was in the Catholic school system all throughout elementary and high school, I can confidently say: defund the Catholic school system entirely. Make that shit privately funded if they want it. The amount of other shit I could've been learning instead of taking up a whole class each year on religion is fucking astounding. Religion classes were the biggest waste of time, aside from World Religion in grade 11 where we actually learned about Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and a few others. And you'd be lucky to have a teacher that could teach sex ed. competently. We had teachers that would only talk about abstinence and then nothing else, and then we'd have girls getting pregnant and having kids before they even graduated, or getting knocked up within 18 months of graduation. Make proper, logical (read: secular) sex ed. mandatory in all schools.


----------



## Xaios

Yeah, at this point I've pretty much accepted that I'll never be able to afford to buy a house unless something unexpected happens in my life that dramatically increases my earnings, which I'm obviously not banking on. I wasted half of my twenties in a job that was supposed to become a career, but paid like shit and I ended up hating, but couldn't leave because I had no other marketable skills. After nearly dying because of the stress it caused, I went back to school, and I am working in my vocation now, but the market has gone so ballistic in the last 5 years, I've pretty much missed my window of opportunity. Honestly, all that factored into my decision to buy a brand new car just recently, because a) I'll never have the expense of a mortgage, and b) it's big enough that I can fold down the seats, set up a small mattress and sleep in it.

I'm only kind of kidding about that second part.


----------



## soliloquy

thebeesknees22 said:


> ahhhh you had the old man savings before things skyrocketed. lol Lucky!
> 
> I just managed to save up enough just a tad after things went crazy. It was within reach then BOOM! The universe was like PSYCH SUCKA!! lol



kind of? 
my personal circumstances where that I was working part/full time since i was 12. I worked all through out school and university. I tried, and succeeded to NOT get any student loans during university. Since I was living with my parents, i didn't pay rent, and my expenses were rather limited. I moved out of my parents house at the age of 30. that time with my parents, i just saved like crazy. 

the prices for homes in the Greater Toronto Area skyrocketed around 2016 or so, but they had been on a steady incline since 2008. but 2016 was the worst in terms of prices. In 2018 they SORT of cooled down a bit (when we got the house), then picked up again. 2020 was a SORT of cooldown, then summer onwards its been a spike.

March of 2021 was another major spike where prices were skyrocketing and people were doing bidding wars on properties. That isn't the case now in June 2021. 

mind you, this is all relevant to Greater Toronto Area (maybe even Vancouver). Rest of Canada is a different story.


----------



## jaxadam

thebeesknees22 said:


> I just managed to save up enough just a tad after things went crazy. It was within reach then BOOM! The universe was like PSYCH SUCKA!! lol



You know what they say... You gotta spend it to make room for more to come in!


----------



## soliloquy

Xaios said:


> Yeah, at this point I've pretty much accepted that I'll never be able to afford to buy a house unless something unexpected happens in my life that dramatically increases my earnings, which I'm obviously not banking on. I wasted half of my twenties in a job that was supposed to become a career, but paid like shit and I ended up hating, but couldn't leave because I had no other marketable skills. After nearly dying because of the stress it caused, I went back to school, and I am working in my vocation now, but the market has gone so ballistic in the last 5 years, I've pretty much missed my window of opportunity. Honestly, all that factored into my decision to buy a brand new car just recently, because a) I'll never have the expense of a mortgage, and b) it's big enough that I can fold down the seats, set up a small mattress and sleep in it.
> 
> I'm only kind of kidding about that second part.



I dont fully trust them, but i have come across loads of blogs/vlogs/youtube tutorials etc about people living in their vans for weeks/months/years on end. Lots of people are also buying tesla for that very reason.

lots of sacrifices to be made, but the gains are also pretty superior too. I came across a nomadic sailor years ago saying that he doesn't belong to any city/land/country. when he gets bored, he picks up his shit and moves to another part of the world. it gives him endless freedom and tireless opportunities to do whatever he wants.

sure, tradeoff is there is no stability. but if that is where happiness lies, then who cares? more power to you!



EDIT: my expenses while living at home were my tuition, my gym, my phone bills, gas. since i wasn't paying rent, savings added up fast.


----------



## thebeesknees22

BlackMastodon said:


> There are loopholes to get tenants evicted, but they still probably take a long time and can be fraught. But basically I'd have to move into the rental myself or have an immediate family member move in in order to get them kicked out, tlans that's still with 60 days notice.



I had 2 landlords do that to me in Vancouver just to get me out so they could charge someone else more. 

the 2nd landlord gave me 3 months notice late and I was right at my 1 yr. She bumped up my rent and said i had 3 months to find a new place. Then a couple of months later she said the owner "changed his mind", and then she tried to up my rent AGAIN after the 3 months. I promptly told her that wasn't legal and sent her a bunch of documents supporting it and she backed off. ......super shady that one. I resent that lady to this day.


----------



## thebeesknees22

soliloquy said:


> kind of?
> my personal circumstances where that I was working part/full time since i was 12. I worked all through out school and university. I tried, and succeeded to NOT get any student loans during university. Since I was living with my parents, i didn't pay rent, and my expenses were rather limited. I moved out of my parents house at the age of 30. that time with my parents, i just saved like crazy.



oh yeah that'll do it. You basically saved an extra $20-$30k a year by not having to pay rent and utilities. That adds up fast!


----------



## soliloquy

BlackMastodon said:


> There are loopholes to get tenants evicted, but they still probably take a long time and can be fraught. But basically I'd have to move into the rental myself or have an immediate family member move in in order to get them kicked out, tlans that's still with 60 days notice.
> 
> Maybe the government/banks should provide some relief to the land owner of the tenant can prove they lost their source of income and are actively searching for another. Maybe that way people don't get kicked out of their homes because landlords are forced to pay the mortgage and taxes on a home out of their own pocket while someone else is living there. And maybe that could even alleviate some of the homeless population. Hmmmm.
> 
> It's crazy as hell to think that my rent in 2016 was $700+/month for a 3 bedroom apartment in a duplex (which was still fairly low) and average rent for a 3 bedroom now is closer to $2000. I don't even want to know what rent is like in Toronto or Vancouver.
> 
> And as someone who was in the Catholic school system all throughout elementary and high school, I can confidently say: defund the Catholic school system entirely. Make that shit privately funded if they want it. The amount of other shit I could've been learning instead of taking up a whole class each year on religion is fucking astounding. Religion classes were the biggest waste of time, aside from World Religion in grade 11 where we actually learned about Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and a few others. And you'd be lucky to have a teacher that could teach sex ed. competently. We had teachers that would only talk about abstinence and then nothing else, and then we'd have girls getting pregnant and having kids before they even graduated, or getting knocked up within 18 months of graduation. Make proper, logical (read: secular) sex ed. mandatory in all schools.



odd thing about rent in the GTA area is that regardless of a full house, a detached house, a condo, a 2 bedroom, a shoe box, etc, you are looking to pay about $2000, give or take a hundred or two. approximately the same as mortgage. so renters aren't exactly saving much. and doesn't matter if you have a full family or not, average is about $2000. 

I know that in certain places, in London Ontario, rent CAN be as low as $500 for a full condo with one bedroom, one den, one bathroom and kitchen. nothing fancy or big, but still super affordable.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah, $2000 is what I'm paying now. 

Isn't London, ON the serial killer capital of the world? ah...not sure I want to go there lol


----------



## BlackMastodon

thebeesknees22 said:


> yeah, $2000 is what I'm paying now.
> 
> Isn't London, ON the serial killer capital of the world? ah...not sure I want to go there lol


Not sure about that but it's a college city, but outside of the party college there isn't much to do there. Though their music scene is better than Windsor's by light years, it ain't better than Detroit's.


----------



## TedEH

soliloquy said:


> my personal circumstances where that I was working part/full time since i was 12. I worked all through out school and university. I tried, and succeeded to NOT get any student loans during university. Since I was living with my parents, i didn't pay rent, and my expenses were rather limited. I moved out of my parents house at the age of 30. that time with my parents, i just saved like crazy.


This seems basically like the way you have to do it now. If you don't have the support of another income you can live off of, things get _much_ more difficult. I had the advantage of working early and never taking out student loans, but I didn't start seriously saving or anything until much later than I should have. Also didn't help that most relationships I've been in drained me of money rather than helping, despite having two incomes. I don't know how that makes sense, but I know it does.


----------



## zappatton2

I bought my house in '06 for $250,000, it's valued now at double that, and it's literally falling apart around me. Like, that's the value in it's current state. I would love to get rid of it, but my wife's health at the moment is somewhat dependent on not making any large changes. So I feel like the second I do manage to list it will coincide with a housing market collapse, it'd be my luck, lol!


----------



## budda

soliloquy said:


> odd thing about rent in the GTA area is that regardless of a full house, a detached house, a condo, a 2 bedroom, a shoe box, etc, you are looking to pay about $2000, give or take a hundred or two. approximately the same as mortgage. so renters aren't exactly saving much. and doesn't matter if you have a full family or not, average is about $2000.
> 
> I know that in certain places, in London Ontario, rent CAN be as low as $500 for a full condo with one bedroom, one den, one bathroom and kitchen. nothing fancy or big, but still super affordable.



You won't find anything that's not a single room for $500 here, good luck.

The issue is that rent is more expensive than a mortgage, but you can't get a mortgage because of the rent.

The only way we bought a house is my wife is incredibly good with money management. Our little bungalow would have been sub-$200k a few years ago (pre reno'd basement especially). The market didn't slow down in the pandemic and I doubt very much that we'll ever see a "bust". It'll just be a transfer of title from people moving into retirement homes/communities to their kids.


----------



## thebeesknees22

budda said:


> It'll just be a transfer of title from people moving into retirement homes/communities to their kids.



that sounds awful lol 

I think I'll just go wander out in the wilderness and die like harrison ford in call of the wild.


----------



## soliloquy

I thought Rio was the murder capital of the world?

In Canada, both Winnipeg and Thunder bay have a bad reputation for being ghetto and high crime rates.

Vancouver is/was leading the country with highest AIDS HIV rates due to their drug issue. But I think London Ontario has taken that spot now? 

But I won't say London, or any part of Canada is murder central 


thebeesknees22 said:


> yeah, $2000 is what I'm paying now.
> 
> Isn't London, ON the serial killer capital of the world? ah...not sure I want to go there lol


----------



## thebeesknees22

Murder capital and serial killer capital are two different things!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...ld-s-serial-killer-capital-uwo-prof-1.3207957

oh ok so it's not anymore but it used to be. .... 

:| 

I actually drove the London, ON on the way to MTL. It seemed like a nice place tbh.


----------



## BlackMastodon

thebeesknees22 said:


> that sounds awful lol
> 
> I think I'll just go wander out in the wilderness and die like harrison ford in call of the wild.


Spoilers


----------



## soliloquy

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...ade-reasons-you-cant-afford-a-house-in-canada

This doesn't seem to go anywhere. Joy


----------



## thebeesknees22

Yeaaah, no surprise there. I think we all knew that. Just no one was saying it. I don't see the CA government changing policies anytime soon. They have their's and the insane prices brings in tons of tax money (and personal investment money) for them. 

The politicians aren't hurting themselves so they don't give a damn. That's pretty much what it boils down to.


----------



## zappatton2

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...eval-indian-residential-school-news-1.6078375
Honestly, I'm kinda failing for words at how pervasive this genocide was, and as someone of European ancestry, if there are Indigenous members on this forum, I am so profoundly sorry. I just don't know what else to say, I really don't. We all knew Canada had a pretty shady history with the Native populations, frankly Canada has a pretty shady _present_, but this... mass graves of _children, _taken from their families and murdered for the crime of not being catholic and white.


----------



## budda

All i want is accountability and justice for genocide and crimes against humanity. End of churches in Canada optional.


----------



## TedEH

I saw the news and came here to post it. It's insane.


----------



## JSanta

budda said:


> All i want is accountability and justice for genocide and crimes against humanity. End of churches in Canada optional.



The Catholic Church has been responsible for an incredible number of atrocities over the past two millennia. At some point, there has to be a reckoning. I just honestly doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, sadly.


----------



## soliloquy

though this is more American, she's Canadian, and the song hits all the feels



I'm wondering where this all will stop. I mean, i am all for canceling canada day (mind you, i'm not a fan of the cancel culture) and making canada day into a day of mourning. Though, unlike Remembrance day, which is to celebrate the vets, and their sacrifice, and mourn for the loss, Canada day should, in my opinion, be open for a post-modernistic approach in that in order for Canada day to be celebrated, its flip side is the mourning of aboriginal loss. But that doesn't just apply there, as the loss of CANADIAN aboriginal isn't just isolated to Canada, but world wide. 

wherever an aboriginal people lived, and now its taken over by another group of people, their independence day shouldn't be celebrated the same way it has been for centuries. Sure, you can celebrate the existence of a nation, but on the flip, you have to acknowledge that mass atrocities had to occur to get to that, and at what cost?

Even when it comes to education, it would require a mass re-write of it. I remember in my grade school, they taught us about residential schools, but in a very different 'pro-neutral' way. As in: "Residential schools were designed to help raise the literacy level of the aboriginal children, to help them succeed in the evolving new world. Yes, small pox killed millions of people".

though that statement is true, that yes, the concept of a school is to educate minds, increate literacy rates, etc. And yes, small pox killed millions of people. but perhaps the educational system should draw a parallel to the holocaust as this was a cultural/ethnic genocide, even if that may not have been the original intent, it did develop into that for one reason or another. dismissing the atrocities is not education, but propaganda of the victors. 

though, in my mind, that also raises an issue in that 'when will it all stop'? EVERY story has at least 2 sides. the loser's side, the victors side, and 'truth' somewhere in between. If our education system is designed to memorize 'facts' that victors have designed, then it isn't exactly education as we are only learning about one side of the equation. instead of educators testing students on if they got something right/wrong, change the dynamic of 'did they understand, yes or no?'

its easy to point the finger and say that Columbus found the Americas, and that is where history started as there wasn't a particular strong written history present before hand. 

that would also require us, globally, to rethink on the concept of 'right' and 'wrong'. We only think what is 'right' based on where we were born, under what religion, under what country and jurisdictional laws and histories, based on our parents, under a certain skin tone, etc. What one side may think is 'right' would differ drastically by another who doesn't see it that way. the whole concept or 'right vs wrong' is flawed then.


----------



## Floppystrings

budda said:


> All i want is accountability and justice for genocide and crimes against humanity. End of churches in Canada optional.



Have you read up on this at all? Your existence on this land is a war crime. Your feet are on stolen land, it's a privilege of the result of genocide.

The only ethical thing to do is leave. Anything less is a direct denial of accountability. Respond please, I'm dying to hear your justification, let your excuses flow.


----------



## Floppystrings

cool double post feature.

So nice it had to be said twice.


----------



## budda

Floppystrings said:


> Have you read up on this at all? Your existence on this land is a war crime. Your feet are on stolen land, it's a privilege of the result of genocide.
> 
> The only ethical thing to do is leave. Anything less is a direct denial of accountability. Respond please, I'm dying to hear your justification, let your excuses flow.



The ethical thing is to give the land back and see what happens next.

Super curious to what brought on your response btw.


----------



## zappatton2

Not since I was a kid did I go for all the excessive patriotic jingoism, I never thought it made sense to be "proud" of the complete accident of the patch of ground you happened to be born on. I am very grateful to have won the lottery of being born in a country where I have the sorts of freedoms and civil protections that I do, though I understand that all societies are not end-products; we must always remain vocal and vigilant in protecting what we do have, and advancing social justice and equity to ensure everyone has opportunity to thrive, because there will always be forces working against those ends.

But back to the topic of "pride", I would say that Canada Day this year did actually instill some measure of it. The buzz has been about wearing orange in solidarity with the Indigenous families that have suffered the grave injustices of our history and our present, and Canadians had plenty of chances to turn it into just another culture war about patriotism. Some did of course, but what I saw yesterday was a sea of orange in solidarity and solemn remembrance. It may not be structural change, but the fact that so many Canadians united around the acknowledgment of the darkest aspects of our history, and that wasn't met with the sort of violent push-back we see directed at social justice movements south of the border, really did make me grateful and proud of the sort of nation we appear open to becoming.


----------



## TedEH

To be honest, I think people are seeing this less as a "social justice movement" and more of an "oh shit, wtf" moment. We also don't have a cartoonish orange man pitting people against eachother in the same way. Being an Anglophone Quebecer, I'm sure you can imagine my resentment towards "patriotism" or "nationalism" or whatever else have you. I'm with you on feeling no real "pride" in having just been lucky.

I think it would be a pretty indefensible position to take to be "on the side of" thousands of dead children, and you'd have to do some pretty dramatic gymnastics to sweep that under a rug just to spin up a bad political take.


----------



## zappatton2

TedEH said:


> I think it would be a pretty indefensible position to take to be "on the side of" thousands of dead children, and you'd have to do some pretty dramatic gymnastics to sweep that under a rug just to spin up a bad political take.


That is true, but narratives can be spun by bad-faith actors regardless of established facts.

Since the advent of video phones, we've all seen countless incidents of unarmed black men being gunned down by police, which is also completely indefensible, but when BLM rose up as a protest to that, it was met with brutality and characterized as terrorists burning cities and coming for your stuff, and people did the gymnastics to sweep away the injustices paraded before their very eyes. I'm grateful this wasn't met with that same hostility and mischaracterization.


----------



## soliloquy

there has been a rise in Catholic churches being burned down across the country. Perhaps its in relationship to their hand in the decimation of aboriginal culture.
in the event it is in relationships to aboriginal rights, i really hope that it doesn't distract from the matter at hand. I dont agree with religious places being burnt down.
As in, i would HATE to see Catholic Church collecting sympathy, saying they are under attack by 'terrorists' and refuse to address the issue:

"residential schools? but have you heard of our churches being burnt down? thats horrible, and something that should not be! we must hold these people accountable" as they sweep it under the rug


----------



## TedEH

I don't support burning churches in the same way that I don't support bombing a country over something their government did. Most people are just trying to live their lives. While I'm not the biggest fan of religion, churches are a demonstrable benefit to a lot of communities. The anger needs to be focused _at the institution_ that is the church, not at the buildings and the communities that rely on it. That's not to say I think any community can just wash their hands of the topic 'cause "it's not our fault", but making moves towards things like taxing churches and reducing their influence I think will go a longer way.


----------



## soliloquy

Taxing churches,
defunding catholic schools

i think are two starts to this that should give decent results


----------



## diagrammatiks

soliloquy said:


> Taxing churches,
> defunding catholic schools
> 
> i think are two starts to this that should give decent results



I think they are starting with the burning.
edit: oh you guys already got to the burning.


----------



## BlackMastodon

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-gg-mary-simon-1.6091376

It reads like a PR "stunt" but it's still cool to see an Indigenous woman as the governer general.


----------



## BlackMastodon

So it's been a week and no posts here, but Trudeau dissolved parliament and now we're in another election. The whole thing seems stupid and out of left field but I don't fully understand the context of why he called for the whole thing. I really don't think the Liberal party is going to win more seats than they had before.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Given that Trudeau has had like 3 financial scandals, and has overseen the decimation of the housing market for the middle class, I'm finding it really hard to vote for the guy. Liberal or not I don't think very highly of him.

But looking at the other parties, they all seem awful too. ....sigh..... I feel dirty just thinking about it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

It's getting more and more America in here with each day. 

Thoughts and prayers.


----------



## budda

Voting NDP. Liberals dropped the bag.


----------



## thebeesknees22

@budda - agreed. Trudeau, and the Liberals dun messed up real good on more than one occasion.

I don't like the NDP's proposed tax increases. They're high. At this point I'm against any increases on income taxes or capital gains given how high my taxes are already. 

--Increase the capital gains inclusion rate to 75 per cent (they're already 50%)
--Boost the top marginal tax rate by two points to 35 per cent for those making over $210,000 a year. (This is getting pretty damn high when houses cost $700k on average.)

I'm coming from QC where I'm already getting hammered at almost 47-50% between federal and provincial taxes............. so please, no more taxes. I have enough thanks. If they want to target the rich making a $400k and up a year that's fine. Just leave me out of any increases lol

I know some will tell me to shove it on that, but no one's going to convince me that me paying even more taxes at this point is a good thing when I see so much waste.


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> I know some will tell me to shove it


Every time you post that 50% tax thing, I can't help but read it as a flex.


----------



## thebeesknees22

haha I hate it so much. I can't help but bitch about it.


----------



## Adieu

Whoa... Is that average $700k housing just in rich cities with high-paying job markets, or in the azz end of nowhere too?


----------



## TedEH

It really depends on where you are and what your standards are. The average listed price for the area I'm in is probably closer to $350k (according to random googling, but I'd believe it). This is for the 4th largest city in Quebec. You can certainly get cheaper if you go out of town. Cross the river into Ottawa and stay a reasonable distance from downtown, and yeah, I'd believe a $700k average. So, closer to option A, as I understand it.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Adieu said:


> Whoa... Is that average $700k housing just in rich cities with high-paying job markets, or in the azz end of nowhere too?



That's the average price if you just google "average canada house price"

It varies of course depending on where you are. Some provinces that really blow the curve like ON and BC. QC is catching up fast in places like MTL. 

I was looking at houses in the middle of nowhere BC and they were still averaging upper $500k for a shack (literally), with no garage and in need of a lot of remodelling. BC is crazy though...(which is one of the reasons why I moved). ON is almost as bad. 

The average house price in MTL right now has shot up to $498k according to my quick googling. To put that in perspective, it was $360k in 2019. Hence the outrage in Canada right now over housing. 

Going closer to alberta and saskatchewan gets cheaper. I wouldn't mind trying out the interior of Canada, but I can't due to tax breaks clients get for me keeping my butt in BC or QC. First world problem, I know. lol


----------



## budda

No one's mentioning the Maritimes in average house pricing. I dont know what it is, but Im gonna say way below everywhere else.

Much more than the housing market going on, though.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah it's a lot cheaper out that way. Maybe that'll be my retirement plan. It should be like Florida in 2050 with global warming lol


----------



## budda




----------



## Shoeless_jose

Liberals definitely frustrate me by getting nothing done. They could have pushed through lots of things to help people with NDP support but instead sat on their hands.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

budda said:


> No one's mentioning the Maritimes in average house pricing. I dont know what it is, but Im gonna say way below everywhere else.





thebeesknees22 said:


> yeah it's a lot cheaper out that way. Maybe that'll be my retirement plan. It should be like Florida in 2050 with global warming lol



The Maritimes saw a huge jump in housing prices as well. Prices just about doubled across the board. The average isn't at $700k yet, but there's still plenty of homes selling at that price and higher. Houses that were selling for maybe $250k a couple years ago are hitting $500k+ now, which is probably closer to the average in the larger city centres. Newfoundland seems the only place out east where prices are still sane, but their economy is in dire straits with dark clouds ahead. 

Watching it from afar, I think the recent wave of panic-buying will have diminished the desirability of the Maritimes a bit. At least for people who were priced out elsewhere and don't already have considerable equity built up in their homes. 

I think the retirees will do fine. The Maritimes have always been a great destination for them, especially the dwindling towns where few job prospects limit the kinds of people who can live there. It's the younger people you have to worry about. A waning housing market could make some of those smaller Maritime communities a lot more volatile than average. Huge markets like Toronto are more inflated yet more stable as well. 

Anyway, I hope whoever forms a government this year will dedicate serious efforts to solving housing. It seems to be bordering on a crisis for a lot of Canadians.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

I have to say, this appears to be the dumbest election ever.

The Liberal campaign seems like they were caught off guard by this election and are scrambling to come up with a plan?

The NDP is so far off in La La Land that I’m not sure even the NDP believes their proposals will work?

The Conservative leader is apparently a worker’s rights activist who’s given up on fiscal conservatism? Did he ask the rest of the party what they thought about this before he went out in left field by himself?

Normally I swing between Liberal and Conservative, but none of the parties are giving me anything to actually vote for.


----------



## nightflameauto

Screamingdaisy said:


> Normally I swing between Liberal and Conservative, but none of the parties are giving me anything to actually vote for.


Sounds like Canadian politics has finally caught up to US politics. Time to start analyzing who the biggest threat is so you know who *NOT* to vote for rather than trying to for for somebody for positive reasons. It sucks, but it's been that way down here my entire voting life.


----------



## TedEH

I'm sure many would say we've been at that point for a while.


----------



## budda

Worth mentioning that a good chunk of the conservative party voted *for* conversion therapy.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

nightflameauto said:


> Sounds like Canadian politics has finally caught up to US politics. Time to start analyzing who the biggest threat is so you know who *NOT* to vote for rather than trying to for for somebody for positive reasons. It sucks, but it's been that way down here my entire voting life.



Problem with that mindset is you resign yourself to mediocrity. Here someone will eventually get pissed off enough that they’ll start a new political party and stir shit up for awhile. 

Might seem far fetched, but within around 10 years the Reform Party (who wanted democratic reform) killed off the old Progressive Conservative Party, and a few years after that lead the country for 9 years.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Soooo this happened

https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/09/02/bc-covid-protests-health-care-workers/

Welp.... we are reaching a new low every day. .....yay....


----------



## nightflameauto

Screamingdaisy said:


> Problem with that mindset is you resign yourself to mediocrity. Here someone will eventually get pissed off enough that they’ll start a new political party and stir shit up for awhile.
> 
> Might seem far fetched, but within around 10 years the Reform Party (who wanted democratic reform) killed off the old Progressive Conservative Party, and a few years after that lead the country for 9 years.


I wish this could happen in America, but our two party on the face of it, one party in practice, system is so entrenched that every attempt just turns into "you're throwing away your vote if you vote for them." And you end up with shit like Trump because you voted for somebody other than the slightly less horrible person on the other side of the ticket.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

nightflameauto said:


> I wish this could happen in America, but our two party on the face of it, one party in practice, system is so entrenched that every attempt just turns into "you're throwing away your vote if you vote for them." And you end up with shit like Trump because you voted for somebody other than the slightly less horrible person on the other side of the ticket.



Honestly, I felt like Trump has created an opportunity for a third party to succeed. Peel the moderates away from both parties and drive a wedge right up the middle. Problem is that it should be started now (or better yet, last year) and not 3 months before the next election. There’s gotta be enough pissed off people in America that cobbling together a third way shouldn’t be too difficult.

Not that multi-party is a panacea. Our two dominant parties have basically the same policies and argue about the details. That said, more players in the game mean more people who can upset the chessboard.


----------



## zappatton2

I think a lot of progressives up here tend to hold their nose and vote Liberal out of fear on a Conservative win, but really, as long as the Cons are held to a minority, nothing from stopping a Liberal/NDP/Green coalition.

I am however a little surprised at O'Toole's progressive pandering, I guess they're not that worried about Mad Max siphoning off the MAGAnucks in notable quantities. I really hope we don't end up under a Con majority, but I do hope the Libs lose seats for this whole stunt, all because they cynically saw the polls and decided they could consolidate power.


----------



## Xaios

zappatton2 said:


> I think a lot of progressives up here tend to hold their nose and vote Liberal out of fear on a Conservative win, but really, as long as the Cons are held to a minority, nothing from stopping a Liberal/NDP/Green coalition.
> 
> I am however a little surprised at O'Toole's progressive pandering, I guess they're not that worried about Mad Max siphoning off the MAGAnucks in notable quantities. I really hope we don't end up under a Con majority, but I do hope the Libs lose seats for this whole stunt, all because they cynically saw the polls and decided they could consolidate power.


Agreed on all counts. It seems like the Liberals tried to leverage their (relative) success dealing with Covid into an election and it rightfully blew up in their face. Given how underwhelmed I've been with most of their time in power, I wouldn't really sad to see them go if it didn't open the door for the CPC. At this point, I think a Liberal-NDP Coalition is the best we can hope for, as long as it's not a completely-out-of-left-field-ass-pull like it was in 2008 when Dion and Layton tried to form a coalition after the CPC already had the mandate, a tactic which in the end only strengthened the CPC's position given how extremely fragile it turned out to be.


----------



## ImNotAhab

I have no idea who to vote for. Local candidates are a bit meh and the party leaders are unlikeable for different reasons.
I don't want to vote Liberal because they have not really done anything and called an unnecessary election.
I don't want to vote Conservative because the litany of dumbassery on display, not to mention the weird element that is not conserve but socially regressive.
I don't want to vote NDP because they will only end up supporting a government and junior partners in coalition governments are just a sideact. Plus Singh knows he is going nowhere so he can promise the moon and stars and never be held to deliver.

The others are too fringe.

This election is a pile of nonsense.


----------



## thebeesknees22

@ImNotAhab totally agreed.


----------



## TedEH

Sometimes I feel like "they haven't done anything" is almost a selling point, since if someone political has done something, and I've heard of it, it's probably bad news.


----------



## budda

Sounds like a good reason to vote NDP .

Edit: wasnt the guy who threw rocks at JT a PPC party employee/politician?


----------



## Xaios

Yeah, it's a tough one. Nationally, I want NDP. However, the best candidate locally is easily the Liberal candidate. He's currently the territory's chief medical officer, and he honestly did an excellent job managing Covid, so he's very credible. The Liberals here have a strong history of good MPs so we'd be well represented in parliament, but at this point I'm not keen on supporting the federal Liberal party.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

Either way, I think the Liberals will win. Seems O’Tool’s excessively progressive campaign (for a Tory) is driving his right flank into the arms of the PPC, which last I looked was up to 7%, so I sense a vote split on the right while NDP voters will vote Liberal out of fear the Tories might win.

I think read somewhere that last election the PPC may have cost the Tories 7 seats with only 1.5% of the vote… at 7% I think they’re going to do serious damage.


----------



## soliloquy

I voted NDP, however, i do want to defend Liberals for a bit.
for what its worth, I think Liberals absolutely suck at advertising their accomplishments. Just to point something out, aside from the debate, which saw all parties attacking Liberals over their lack of climate change concerns, when listening to CBC radio, and in discussion with candidates representing several regions/municipalities/cities/towns/areas/etc, more often than not, and regardless of what party they are for, they often say stuff like (Yes, i know thats a run-on sentence):

- JT's fight against climate change is actually quiet remarkable. 
- Him fighting against methane gas and succeeding is impressive
- him making new builds more green is amazing
- fighting climate change is not easy. 

Other parties (not their leaders, but individuals representing the parties) are giving credit where credit is due. JT has done a lot for climate change, and is not able to advertise it as such for whatever reason. Moreover, though ANY attempt to fix climate is not easy, it should be recognized as such that it is 'not enough' but at least something was done. Moreover, aside from Greens, it seems that Libs are the only one that have a strong enough plan for the environment. 


I think this is a problem that liberals have always had:
1) far too individualistic, thus collecting and agreeing to something is far more difficult than the right winged folk
2) Liberal minded folk usually keep to themselves, where as conservative minded have no problem telling the world what they think. 

I have always voted liberal in the past, but this time around voted NDP. I dont really have any particular animosity towards Liberals, and JT, but I think its the issue that Liberals will always have. Overpromise EVERYTHING, and accomplish some of their promises. 

alas.


----------



## TedEH

soliloquy said:


> Overpromise EVERYTHING, and accomplish some of their promises.


Isn't this just politics in a nutshell though? What politician has ever delivered on every promise? IMO I'd rather someone do 20% of the good things they promised, then have someone else successfully pull off 80% of what were terrible ideas to begin with.


----------



## soliloquy

TedEH said:


> Isn't this just politics in a nutshell though? What politician has ever delivered on every promise? IMO I'd rather someone do 20% of the good things they promised, then have someone else successfully pull off 80% of what were terrible ideas to begin with.



Mostly true. My statement was more towards people saying that liberals have done nothing over the last 6 years. that isnt true. 
Have they given aboriginal people clean water? no
have they made steps towards reconciliation? no
have they solved world hunger, and pollution, and climate change? no

but that isn't the full picture. 

dont say that you'll vote XYZ party only because liberals didn't do anything. They did. Maybe they didnt do what you cared for the most; maybe they didnt do complete ALL their promises. But, perhaps the issues you want to to resolve are not over-night issues that can be resolved with a flip of a switch.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

soliloquy said:


> Mostly true. My statement was more towards people saying that liberals have done nothing over the last 6 years. that isnt true.
> Have they given aboriginal people clean water? no
> have they made steps towards reconciliation? no
> have they solved world hunger, and pollution, and climate change? no
> 
> but that isn't the full picture.
> 
> dont say that you'll vote XYZ party only because liberals didn't do anything. They did. Maybe they didnt do what you cared for the most; maybe they didnt do complete ALL their promises. But, perhaps the issues you want to to resolve are not over-night issues that can be resolved with a flip of a switch.



I mostly agree with you but I also feel they could have got a lot of their priorities through with NDP support even in minority and hate that they called election instead of just governing. I usually vote Lib strategically but liberal candidate dropped out in my riding so looks like Green party is favoured to win which is awesome. 

And not to judge book by it's cover but all signs with pictures on them in my area all the Conservative candidates look like they are part of the Lannister family lol.


----------



## zappatton2

I saw a picture sign of the PPC guy in my riding, and he literally looks like Mr. Burns.


----------



## soliloquy

zappatton2 said:


> I saw a picture sign of the PPC guy in my riding, and he literally looks like Mr. Burns.



Please take a picture!!


----------



## zappatton2

I'm that asshole who still doesn't have a camera phone, but I did do a Google search, admittedly he doesn't look exactly like him, but his campaign photo was him with Max in some sort of study, and they looked like Smithers and Burns together. 

And after that quick Google search, it wasn't hard to find him saying something terrible either (also posting below). I mean, I just searched this _one guy_, and we're already off to the races.


----------



## budda

That's PPC in a nutshell as far as "views on women" goes. Take the racist and xenophobic version of that and you have their stance on immigration and reconciliation. They arent hiding it.

Honesty I want to see NDP take a swing at things and Liberals help them with it. We'll see what happens.

Someone who taught me guitar briefly when i started is an NDP candidate in my (conservative) home town - shes currently flipping the vote. It's good stuff.


----------



## JSanta

I struggled with my vote this time around, as I did during the last election. The liberal candidate in my riding was very close in beating the conservative incumbent during the last election. Both the liberal and NDP candidates are the same this time around, and I personally feel that both are excellent candidates. I'd like to see more cooperation between liberals and NDP, and as the latter party continues to grow, I hope to see that happen. 

For now, my main priority was unseating the conservative incumbent, and the liberal candidate seems to have that ability.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

JSanta said:


> I'd like to see more cooperation between liberals and NDP, and as the latter party continues to grow, I hope to see that happen.



Honestly, I don’t really see this happening. The Liberals are, and always have been, a moderate, right wing, small-c conservative party.

Campaign on the left, rule on the right. It’s a proven strategy.


----------



## zappatton2

Well, since I'm in the safest Liberal riding in the country (according to the latest riding polling, the Cons aren't even competitive, trailing a distant 3rd behind the NDP), I think I might just go Green. My strategy at this point is just hoping I can help the Green candidate beat those PPC loons.


----------



## thebeesknees22

here I am still sitting here really not liking any of my choices. ugh...ughghghg.....UGHGHGHghghghghghghg

Trudeau messed up enough times he didn't earn a re-election. I really don't want conservatives to win though. And I'm definitely not an NDP kinda guy either. (I was never a Bernie supporter in the US and the NDP just doesn't do it for me here either. They're pretty similar overall it seems)

I'm 50/50 on either holding my nose and throwing it in with Trudeau to try to keep conservatives from winning or just not bothering. I feel gross on the inside just thinking about it. ...i think that's what trudeau was counting on too.
...
..
.
barf


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> here I am still sitting here really not liking any of my choices. ugh...ughghghg.....UGHGHGHghghghghghghg
> 
> Trudeau messed up enough times he didn't earn a re-election. I really don't want conservatives to win though. And I'm definitely not an NDP kinda guy either. (I was never a Bernie supporter in the US and the NDP just doesn't do it for me here either. They're pretty similar overall it seems)
> 
> I'm 50/50 on either holding my nose and throwing it in with Trudeau to try to keep conservatives from winning or just not bothering. I feel gross on the inside just thinking about it. ...i think that's what trudeau was counting on too.
> ...
> ..
> .
> barf



What candidate benefits your community most? Vote for them.


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> holding my nose


Better the evil you know, or whatever that expression is, in my . Or what Budda said.


----------



## thebeesknees22

yeah i know i know

I still feel dirty doin' it though ha


----------



## thebeesknees22

Oooooohhhhh lol i'm dumb. 

so you only vote for the local representative? haha the citizenship test totally didn't cover that. Or maybe it did and I forgot. haha

well in that case I have no one to vote for since I'm anglophone and in Montreal. There's no one here that'll side for my side of the issues here. lol 

interesting to know though. I'll know to read up more on the local candidates next time though


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> Oooooohhhhh lol i'm dumb.
> 
> so you only vote for the local representative? haha the citizenship test totally didn't cover that. Or maybe it did and I forgot. haha
> 
> well in that case I have no one to vote for since I'm anglophone and in Montreal. There's no one here that'll side for my side of the issues here. lol
> 
> interesting to know though. I'll know to read up more on the local candidates next time though



Absolutely no candidates align with you on any issues?


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> so you only vote for the local representative?


I mean, yes and no. I'm not an expert on how the whole electoral system works, but a vote for your local representative ultimately is going to benefit the whole party, as I understand it. So you're balancing your opinions of the locals, the parties, the PM, etc. IMO I tend to vote on the basis of my views alignment with the whole party, not the local rep or any other individual, but that's a strategy that maybe only works for someone who doesn't really pay any attention to local politics.


----------



## thebeesknees22

budda said:


> Absolutely no candidates align with you on any issues?



i would need more time to read up. I'm in the middle of a trailer delivery today/tomorrow (I a hit 90hr work week over last week yay! ...probably did 80-85 the 2-3 weeks before that) I didn't think to read up much on local stuff before today tbh

@TedEH - yeah totally. that's how i usually roll, but since i'm pretty meh on all the parties at the moment I feel like I should know more about the local candidate in this case. My bad lol


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> i would need more time to read up.


You could ask someone whose opinion you trust who they'd support and why, but you kinda left it to the last minute. If you're anywhere near where I think you are, you've got all of 4 hours to figure something out.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> You could ask someone whose opinion you trust who they'd support and why, but you kinda left it to the last minute. If you're anywhere near where I think you are, you've got all of 4 hours to figure something out.



oh yeah... i don't talk to people actually in MTL anymore haha (after my first year and 1/2, I pretty much gave up on that)

I pretty much just talk to people in LA or Vancouver. I live the hermit life here. MTL is like my fortress of solitude.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

I’m curious to see the results.

Here (Thunder Bay) the PPC had a big rally where they drove around the city honking horns. My wife said random people were yelling insults at them as they drove by.


----------



## zappatton2

Whelp, looks like the Seinfeld election ended largely the same as it began. Kinda wish the NDP and Greens picked up more at the Liberal's expense, rather than the Cons, but the people have spoken.

Weird thing is, there are so many really important issues to address; the ongoing pandemic, housing, and most importantly (whether we want to admit it now, or 30 years from now when things are really fucked), climate change. 

But the major parties didn't really grab me; they seemed to talk around the issues, I'm not sure I've heard so many buzzwords and non-answers in my experience of watching elections play out.


----------



## ImNotAhab

650 million dollars later and we end up back in the same place. 
Dreadful.


----------



## budda

ImNotAhab said:


> 650 million dollars later and we end up back in the same place.
> Dreadful.



The Beaverton nails it again.


----------



## Manurack

Trudeau again? Ugh another term of this.


----------



## TedEH

I dunno what else anyone expected. Was it an expensive waste of time? Absolutely. At the same time, I'm glad things didn't get actively worse.


----------



## Manurack

I actually voted for Trudeau when he was first elected as Prime Minister. Mainly because he made a now, bullshit promise to lower food prices in Nunavut to Inuit people. 

Did it actually happen? No. Has he done anything to lower food prices in the Canadian Arctic? Hell no. 

One of my friends shared this on FB earlier and I had to share it here.

Romeo Saganash said it first:


----------



## Screamingdaisy

zappatton2 said:


> But the major parties didn't really grab me; they seemed to talk around the issues, I'm not sure I've heard so many buzzwords and non-answers in my experience of watching elections play out.



That was my complaint.


----------



## soliloquy

in line with the typical politician response:
Host: G'morning Mr. O'Toole. How are you this morning?
O'Toole: Did you know Mr. Trudeau called $600 million election during the pandemic?!
Host: ...right, way to answer the question. And you, Mr. Singh?
Singh: I mean, during the pandemic?! $600 million?! 

just repeating in circles. 

I do wonder if the other parties can force an election sooner than the typical 18-24 month election following a minority win? They can easily hold this over him, suggesting JT not be in charge of finances (or anything, really) if he can blow out $600million for not a sufficient reason?


----------



## Screamingdaisy

soliloquy said:


> in line with the typical politician response:
> Host: G'morning Mr. O'Toole. How are you this morning?
> O'Toole: Did you know Mr. Trudeau called $600 million election during the pandemic?!
> Host: ...right, way to answer the question. And you, Mr. Singh?
> Singh: I mean, during the pandemic?! $600 million?!
> 
> just repeating in circles.
> 
> I do wonder if the other parties can force an election sooner than the typical 18-24 month election following a minority win? They can easily hold this over him, suggesting JT not be in charge of finances (or anything, really) if he can blow out $600million for not a sufficient reason?



He’s in a strong minority position as either the Cons, Bloc or NDP have enough seats to prop him up individually without the support of any other party, and it would take all three parties working together to have enough seats to pull him down.

Conversely, if you’re the Bloc or NDP you have him more or less where you want him since he has to get one other party to agree with him to maintain the confidence of the house. Since it’s unlikely that the Bloc or NDP will ever form government, forcing an election will only weaken their negotiating position if one of the other parties gets a majority, and in a minority the Cons will typically negotiate with the Liberals before they negotiate with the NDP.

Long story short, Trudeau could easily run out the full 4 years if he chooses to.


----------



## budda

$610M spent mostly if not all in Canada on Canadians to work during the election. Not all doom and gloom on that number.


----------



## Xaios

soliloquy said:


> I do wonder if the other parties can force an election sooner than the typical 18-24 month election following a minority win? They can easily hold this over him, suggesting JT not be in charge of finances (or anything, really) if he can blow out $600million for not a sufficient reason?


I don't think they would try it, not unless the Liberals were significantly more unpopular than they are even now. The Liberals had a level of support that would have equated to a majority government if it had held, only for it to plummet as soon as they called an election. No other is going to want to be the one to blame for another election for at least another 2 years, because they now know how much being in that seat erodes sentiment. Arguably the reason it worked for the Conservatives during the Harper days is because the Liberal leaders at the time were Dion and Ignatieff, two figures who were a lot less popular than Trudeau or even O'Toole.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

Xaios said:


> I don't think they would try it, not unless the Liberals were significantly more unpopular than they are even now. The Liberals had a level of support that would have equated to a majority government if it had held, only for it to plummet as soon as they called an election. No other is going to want to be the one to blame for another election for at least another 2 years, because they now know how much being in that seat erodes sentiment. Arguably the reason it worked for the Conservatives during the Harper days is because the Liberal leaders at the time were Dion and Ignatieff, two figures who were a lot less popular than Trudeau or even O'Toole.



And Harper was smart enough to bait the Liberals into defeating him.


----------



## Xaios

Screamingdaisy said:


> And Harper was smart enough to bait the Liberals into defeating him.


In all fairness, the election the Cons lost wasn't a "let's call a random election that nobody wants in order to grab power" election, it was because they'd reached the end of the 4 year term allowed under the Act of Parliament. They'd just managed to screw things up and develop so much ill will when they finally had a majority that they got punted easily.


----------



## Screamingdaisy

Xaios said:


> In all fairness, the election the Cons lost wasn't a "let's call a random election that nobody wants in order to grab power" election, it was because they'd reached the end of the 4 year term allowed under the Act of Parliament. They'd just managed to screw things up and develop so much ill will when they finally had a majority that they got punted easily.



Before that, when Harper was still minority prime minister.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

Screamingdaisy said:


> Before that, when Harper was still minority prime minister.



Man he was such a crook. Prorogue Parliament "for the Olympics" when the vote of no confidence was staring him in the face and making entire caucus privy council so any talk to journalist would be a crime. Ugh that guy ultimate snake.


----------



## thebeesknees22

So a realtor I had been working with sent an update.

"The national benchmark price is also up $240,000 from before the pandemic. Looking ahead, all signs are pointing to a headline-grabbing spring market. "

.........
....
..
Honestly. I think it is time I look at heading back to the US. If the national average for housing is up that friggin much, and it's expected to keep blowing up....bloody hell. What kind of future can there be. 

It's just super depressing. Nothing seems to be changing either.


----------



## ArtDecade

thebeesknees22 said:


> So a realtor I had been working with sent an update.
> 
> "The national benchmark price is also up $240,000 from before the pandemic. Looking ahead, all signs are pointing to a headline-grabbing spring market. "
> 
> .........
> ....
> ..
> Honestly. I think it is time I look at heading back to the US. If the national average for housing is up that friggin much, and it's expected to keep blowing up....bloody hell. What kind of future can there be.
> 
> It's just super depressing. Nothing seems to be changing either.



Not getting better in the US either.


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> So a realtor I had been working with sent an update.
> 
> "The national benchmark price is also up $240,000 from before the pandemic. Looking ahead, all signs are pointing to a headline-grabbing spring market. "
> 
> .........
> ....
> ..
> Honestly. I think it is time I look at heading back to the US. If the national average for housing is up that friggin much, and it's expected to keep blowing up....bloody hell. What kind of future can there be.
> 
> It's just super depressing. Nothing seems to be changing either.


Go north or go east if you want lower priced homes. Bout it really.


----------



## thebeesknees22

ArtDecade said:


> Not getting better in the US either.


yeah I've been looking back home in southern Missouri. Prices have gone up a ton back there too, but at a slower rate. It won't be long until that's out of reach for me too though. At the rate it's going it might be around 2-3 years. 



budda said:


> Go north or go east if you want lower priced homes. Bout it really.



yeah that is about it. East is going up fast though. 

I saw an article the other day saying about 90% of home purchases in the cities have gone to investment firms. 

https://betterdwelling.com/canadian...-new-real-estate-supply-scooped-by-investors/

regular people can't compete with that. Same thing is happening in the US too.


----------



## budda

Yep. And landlords sitting on houses people cant afford to rent but could have afforded to buy. 

Just a big (avoidable) mess out there.


----------



## thebeesknees22

budda said:


> Yep. And landlords sitting on houses people cant afford to rent but could have afforded to buy.
> 
> Just a big (avoidable) mess out there.



yeah, and I'm seeing way too many news stories of older people getting their rent jacked up and kicked out. It is a mess indeed.


----------



## Alberto7

I don't really follow the housing market much, (and I hate to pretend to be knowledgeable about this things - I'm not), and I'm not currently looking to buy, but my guess would be that if it keeps going up this much while most people can't afford to buy, the bubble's gotta burst at some point down the line. Probably a few years, half a decade or so. Would just have to hold out and manage to save up some during that time (hoping for job stability... easier said than done with a looming recession)

Idk if that is at all accurate though. Curious to see responses to that thought.


----------



## TedEH

As someone who'd like to buy a house some day, I'd like to hope that's how it works, but I also would be pretending if I said I knew anything about what to expect.


----------



## thebeesknees22

I have little to no hope of a crash being severe enough to drop prices to an affordable level. With the average being over $700k nation wide, it would have to halve at least. That's like at minimum for the average person to be able to afford something. I don't see that happening. :/


----------



## Xaios

I'm basically resigned to knowing the only way I'm getting a house is through inheritance.


----------



## jaxadam

Alberto7 said:


> I don't really follow the housing market much, (and I hate to pretend to be knowledgeable about this things - I'm not), and I'm not currently looking to buy, but my guess would be that if it keeps going up this much while most people can't afford to buy, the bubble's gotta burst at some point down the line. Probably a few years, half a decade or so. Would just have to hold out and manage to save up some during that time (hoping for job stability... easier said than done with a looming recession)
> 
> Idk if that is at all accurate though. Curious to see responses to that thought.



What's driving the market is demand, inventory, and raw material prices.

Cash buyers waiving appraisal contingencies really drove the prices up. Now appraisals are excluding cash buyer waived contingencies and using traditional loan market values. This will drive prices down. Raw material prices will eventually stabilize but the forecasting and upcharge clauses in contracts drove prices up not only on new builds but existing inventory competition. Inventory is at an all-time desolate low right now (typical 6 month inventory is below 30 day average). This is bound to adjust once everyone figures out where they want to live. Demand will change with the ebbs and flows of a buyer/seller market. I don't believe it will crash again but I would not be surprised if we normalized to a pre-2008 price/sq ft local market average again.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Xaios said:


> I'm basically resigned to knowing the only way I'm getting a house is through inheritance.




lol I can't rely on that in Canada. I don't have any family here. ...I guess I could do the ol' marry into it try ha. But...no...i'd rather not.


I have too many half and step brothers and a sister to plan on inheriting anything in the US too. I'll have to figure out how to afford a place on my own.


----------



## TedEH

I'd be all set if I could find and marry someone with about the same income as me - but then I'd need to be attractive, and that 'ain't hap'nin.


----------



## thebeesknees22

no no, the goal is to find someone with way way more income than you so you don't have to work anymore haha 

i kid I kid.


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> i kid I kid.


Nono, as soon as kids enter the equation the whole plan goes out the window.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> Nono, as soon as kids enter the equation the whole plan goes out the window.



hahaha true true


----------



## Shoeless_jose

Tough to wait out the market when institutional investors are buying. 

It's fucked cause people buying them cant afford them either in my area all sorts of basements or top floors for rent all north of 2K people clearly overrreached on purchase.


----------



## nightflameauto

TedEH said:


> I'd be all set if I could find and marry someone with about the same income as me - but then I'd need to be attractive, and that 'ain't hap'nin.


Dude, I'm ugly as shit and I'm married. Don't think being non-attractive is a complete deal-breaker.

Have a good sense of humor, find a way to be entertaining. Shit, I think half the reason she asked me out was because I'm a goofy bastard.


----------



## Xaios

Clearly the answer is some sort of SSO Canada commune.


----------



## TedEH

nightflameauto said:


> Dude, I'm ugly as shit and I'm married. Don't think being non-attractive is a complete deal-breaker.


Don't get me wrong, I think I look pretty decent, but attraction isn't all looks. 
The _real_ dealbreaker is generally that I'm usually happiest when I'm single.

Maybe this is more appropriate for the relationship thread - but it's not that I have "high" standards, so much as just very well defined and maybe not super conventional standards. I like my lifestyle, and don't want to change it much for just anyone. Whenever I do, I get miserable. I don't _need_ anyone else, and nobody _needs_ me, and I like it that way. Bringing it back around to this thread's topic - I can't, in any seriousness, bring myself to pick up just anyone for some kind of political or economic reason like trying to buy a house.

SSO Canada Commune though........ might be on to something.


----------



## nightflameauto

TedEH said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think I look pretty decent, but attraction isn't all looks.
> The _real_ dealbreaker is generally that I'm usually happiest when I'm single.
> 
> Maybe this is more appropriate for the relationship thread - but it's not that I have "high" standards, so much as just very well defined and maybe not super conventional standards. I like my lifestyle, and don't want to change it much for just anyone. Whenever I do, I get miserable. I don't _need_ anyone else, and nobody _needs_ me, and I like it that way. Bringing it back around to this thread's topic - I can't, in any seriousness, bring myself to pick up just anyone for some kind of political or economic reason like trying to buy a house.
> 
> SSO Canada Commune though........ might be on to something.


Pretty sure we had a back and forth in the relationship thread where we went into deep details about how relationships can't be about "gotta be with someone" and work out. I know I was definitely in a place where I was done worrying about trying to get with somebody when I met my wife. We just sorta folded into each other without much change to either of our lives. The way it should be.


----------



## Xaios

TedEH said:


> SSO Canada Commune though........ might be on to something.


If you're happiest when you're single, living on the SSO Commune will basically ensure you stay that way.


----------



## TedEH

Reinforcing my previously held notions is my favourite.


----------



## budda

So that trucker convoy…


----------



## TedEH

I had to google it - I thought maybe it was related to the Eastway explosion that happened a while ago. There was supposed to be a sort of drive-by thing for the victims of an explosion, by the truckers in the area, after an explosion at the tank-repair place killed 6 people.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> I had to google it - I thought maybe it was related to the Eastway explosion that happened a while ago. There was supposed to be a sort of drive-by thing for the victims of an explosion, by the truckers in the area, after an explosion at the tank-repair place killed 6 people.



didnt hear about that one. Someone from my hometown (friends with my siblings) was one of those 6.


----------



## Xaios

budda said:


> So that trucker convoy…


‍


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> didnt hear about that one


Yeh, it was pretty sad news. I have some friends and family who work for MTO or are truck drivers who have known everyone there for a long time. My brother right now is driving fuel and could have been there if the timing had been right. I've been to that location a handful of times when I was younger.


----------



## zappatton2

Whelp, looks like the aptly-names "Karen Convoy" is gonna be rolling into my neck o' tha woods today. Interesting that a scattered assembly of truckers and right-wing hangers-on think they're gonna end provincial lockdown mandates, get written Governor General support(?!?) and reverse American rules about the vaccination status of incoming truckers by protesting the feds. Judging by my Facebook feed, I swear 75% of this is just a singular pathological obsession with Trudeau.


----------



## thebeesknees22

zappatton2 said:


> Whelp, looks like the aptly-names "Karen Convoy" is gonna be rolling into my neck o' tha woods today. Interesting that a scattered assembly of truckers and right-wing hangers-on think they're gonna end provincial lockdown mandates, get written Governor General support(?!?) and reverse American rules about the vaccination status of incoming truckers by protesting the feds. Judging by my Facebook feed, I swear 75% of this is just a singular pathological obsession with Trudeau.



lol Karen convoy. That's a fitting name.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

zappatton2 said:


> Whelp, looks like the aptly-names "Karen Convoy" is gonna be rolling into my neck o' tha woods today. Interesting that a scattered assembly of truckers and right-wing hangers-on think they're gonna end provincial lockdown mandates, get written Governor General support(?!?) and reverse American rules about the vaccination status of incoming truckers by protesting the feds. Judging by my Facebook feed, I swear 75% of this is just a singular pathological obsession with Trudeau.



The anti Trudeau thing is bizzare. He has often disappointed me but like when Ford puts policies into place you get all these "Thanks Trudeau" people


----------



## Shoeless_jose




----------



## Xaios

Dineley said:


> The anti Trudeau thing is bizzare. He has often disappointed me but like when Ford puts policies into place you get all these "Thanks Trudeau" people


The greatest conservative political masterstroke is creating a climate in which their constituents will blame the Left for the policy and events that the Right instituted or brought to pass. Like when Republicans were blaming Obama for Afghanistan. Just... brain-melting.


----------



## TedEH

I've mentioned a few times I have this one friend who is... we'll say impaired... she unfortunately lives downtown and told me she was excited because there's suddenly a bunch of cool trucks around. I had to reply with something to the tune of "please don't go near them, they're literally flying Nazi flags" and a general explanation of what's going on 'cause she had no idea. "I guess I shouldn't go out for chores today then?" No, today is not the right day to be out there.


----------



## spudmunkey




----------



## budda

"If Nazis feel safe coming to your event, you need to re-evaluate." - paraphrasing.

And of course people who support this don't want to hear that the US has the vaccine mandate for cross-border trucking too...


----------



## thebeesknees22

I was actually mildly shocked to see the nazi flags. Not completely shocked, but mildly yes.


----------



## Adieu

spudmunkey said:


> View attachment 102583
> View attachment 102584



Lovely

Why is it that all manner of idiocy is so damn infectious?


----------



## Alberto7

I have this friend from uni that I really liked. We took a few classes together and we did all the projects for those classes together. Really smart and personable lady; I respected her a lot.
Notice I speak in past tense about her...
She's been posting anti-vaxer stuff for a while, which whatever, it's been wearing me down a lot, but hadn't crossed my limit yet. Until I saw her support messages for the convoy posted on Instagram. Real disappointed.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

Alberto7 said:


> I have this friend from uni that I really liked. We took a few classes together and we did all the projects for those classes together. Really smart and personable lady; I respected her a lot.
> Notice I speak in past tense about her...
> She's been posting anti-vaxer stuff for a while, which whatever, it's been wearing me down a lot, but hadn't crossed my limit yet. Until I saw her support messages for the convoy posted on Instagram. Real disappointed.



Similar story for me girl I went to school with for journalism posts the most insane anti vax articles that like based on what I know she learned in school she should know are trash 

She then ran as PPC candidate last election and was at protest I messaged her quickly just saying stay safe and warm and she tells me there are 100s of thousands of people there which I can clearly see on TV there aren't like I've been to Ottawa for Canada day and it was more packed.


----------



## CanserDYI

If I were in charge I'd round up all the swastika wavers and force them into a small little room and gas em, unironically. Seriously. I know it sounds like a joke, but fly the flag once, get in the forever box.


----------



## TedEH

Yikes. Just all around yikes.

I kinda wanted to go out to the jam room for the day - but I'd need to cross the bridges and go through downtown and I don't think I want to be near any of that nonsense.


----------



## shredmechanic

You ever see that photo of a Native American in a US gas station holding up a dreamcatcher with a confederate flag on it looking confused as hell?

That's how I feel seeing a US confederate flag along with a Gadsden flag flying on the back of a Canadian pickup truck. I've gone crosseyed...


----------



## shredmechanic




----------



## TedEH

Part of me is saddened that the image of truck drivers in general is sort of getting dragged through the mud in the process. Not every truck driver is a nutjob.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

TedEH said:


> Part of me is saddened that the image of truck drivers in general is sort of getting dragged through the mud in the process. Not every truck driver is a nutjob.




They could easily remedy this by everyone who isn't flying a nazi or Confederate flag getting those idiots out. Although I think most people realize this is in no way representative of the industry as a whole.


----------



## budda

Dineley said:


> They could easily remedy this by everyone who isn't flying a nazi or Confederate flag getting those idiots out. Although I think most people realize this is in no way representative of the industry as a whole.



This is what I said when someone who's a trucker commented on my FB. If your group wasnt remotely OK with this, these people wouldnt have gotten in. But they did, which says a lot. Everyone has a phone camera - there was no video of people yelling at the dude with the nazi flag to get out immediately or face consequences. Just "oh this guy showed up" reaction.


----------



## TedEH

Dineley said:


> They could easily remedy this by everyone who isn't flying a nazi or Confederate flag getting those idiots out. Although I think most people realize this is in no way representative of the industry as a whole.


I don't mean to say that there's some kind of "not everyone at the protest is a bad guy" kind of thing going on. They're all nutjobs _at the protest_. I'm talking about people who have nothing to do with the protests, but happen to drive trucks. I come from a family that has a lot of trucks drivers in it, including my dad and my brother. They aren't at the protest, and they aren't nut jobs. But for the next while, any time a large vehicle goes by, in the back of people's minds there's gonna be that little voice of "how much do you want to bet that's an anti-vax/mask/nazi/etc?"


----------



## Shoeless_jose

TedEH said:


> I don't mean to say that there's some kind of "not everyone at the protest is a bad guy" kind of thing going on. They're all nutjobs _at the protest_. I'm talking about people who have nothing to do with the protests, but happen to drive trucks. I come from a family that has a lot of trucks drivers in it, including my dad and my brother. They aren't at the protest, and they aren't nut jobs. But for the next while, any time a large vehicle goes by, in the back of people's minds there's gonna be that little voice of "how much do you want to bet that's an anti-vax/mask/nazi/etc?"




Well if it means anything despite me thinking the protest is hot piss soaked garbage I have zero issues with the industry as a whole and still have respect for any truckers. If anything I envy them I know I could never do the maneuvering or else I would be all over that as a job haha.


----------



## zappatton2

How long before they start blaming antifa/BLM sleeper agents for the swastikas, the graffiti, the harassment of service workers and homeless shelters? Already!? Really??

Okay, but how long before they vilify actual journalists who are professionally bound to higher standards of reporting, while embracing charlatans selling disinformation and sewing discord? Well, I guess that was a given, big bad "MSM" and all. You know how all those CBC, CTV and G&M reporters love to clear everything with Trudeau from their secret underground bunker, amiright?

At least they're not quite unhinged enough to start with the whole "Trudeau is a secret baby-eating pedo who likes to...." oh wait. Never mind.

I suppose at the end of the day, the point is to drum up broad-based support from Canadians to end the mandates and apparently depose Trudeau and throw him in prison (because reasons?), so how's their credibility doing with people outside their bubble?


----------



## budda

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/convoy-workers-two-days-later-1.6333017

key points IMO:
- disrupting food service for those in need (by congestion as well as verbal abuse)
- using racial slurs (related to food service above)
- forcing businesses to close until they leave (not sure how this shows support for fellow Canadians)


----------



## Xaios

zappatton2 said:


> How long before they start blaming antifa/BLM sleeper agents for the swastikas, the graffiti, the harassment of service workers and homeless shelters? Already!? Really??


Yup.






Also, fuck I love the Beaverton: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2022/0...ossed-canada-to-protest-life-saving-medicine/


----------



## budda

The beaverton and cbcpitchbot on twitter have been on point.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

The claims about the numbers are what baffles me the most. Now they say there is like a million people not being allowed in. It's like even if media was trying to not show the people you can't hide that amount of people. Like the raptors parade took over like massive amounts of the city people as far as the eye can see. Just the lunacy


----------



## zappatton2

Dineley said:


> The claims about the numbers are what baffles me the most. Now they say there is like a million people not being allowed in. It's like even if media was trying to not show the people you can't hide that amount of people. Like the raptors parade took over like massive amounts of the city people as far as the eye can see. Just the lunacy


Maybe they could call up reinforcements from the 1.7 billion people who came out for Trump's inauguration.


----------



## TedEH

I definitely have seen the word "trillions" getting thrown around. Sometimes sarcastically, sometimes not. Sometimes falling back on "it was just sarcastic" after getting called out on it.


----------



## Alberto7

Like when the Venezuelan government was showing pictures with "millions" of pro-government protesters on the streets, only for people to immediately notice that the pictures shown were just copy/pasted clumps of the same people over and over everywhere.  and footage from people in adjacent pictures showed protests of like 100 people


----------



## bostjan

I'm seeing reports that Trudeau has Covid.


----------



## nightflameauto

So the most Trumpiest Trumper that ever Trumped for Trump maga hat wearing dude at work that pumps Fox News and OAN into his veins like heroine spouted off in a meeting that we were in discussing an important software vendor that the vendor is "Canadian" and "DO YOU SEE WHAT THEY'RE DOING UP THERE RIGHT NOW!"

Which lead to somebody else saying, "They learned it from watching your friends in Washington on January 6th."

And that's when the fight started. Good way to end a meeting at least.

Man do I hate our world right now. What a waste of potential.


----------



## TedEH

Did I mention that one of them spit on my sister yesterday? 'Cause that happened.


----------



## nightflameauto

TedEH said:


> Did I mention that one of them spit on my sister yesterday? 'Cause that happened.


So what happened to her freedom to choose who spits on her?

Sorry, not trying to make light of it. If it was my sister I'd probably be wanting to track them down and give them a nice punch for their trouble, but this whole thing is so ridiculous. I mean, what does spitting on another person accomplish for the spitter? Great life memory to carry with them for eternity? WTF?


----------



## Alberto7

TedEH said:


> Did I mention that one of them spit on my sister yesterday? 'Cause that happened.



Omfg what the hell, I am livid for you. Sorry man. :/


----------



## Xaios

He was just trying to confer his Alpha Pureblood-level Covid immunity to her. Frankly, she should be downright _quivering_ in womanly gratitude.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> Did I mention that one of them spit on my sister yesterday? 'Cause that happened.




sounds like whoever that was needs a good punch in the face.


----------



## Alberto7

Xaios said:


> He was just trying to his Alpha Pureblood-level Covid immunity to her. Frankly, she should be downright _quivering_ in womanly gratitude.



I almost want to find this comment insensitive, but fuck it had me rolling.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> Did I mention that one of them spit on my sister yesterday? 'Cause that happened.



Sorry to hear that. 

then you have people sharing the poli cartoon of photographers in front of the hate groups completely separate from “caring Canadians”. Yeah no, they were literally mixed in. Im sad one of my best friends since elementary has fallen for it.


----------



## zappatton2

A lot of folks here are excusing this behaviour with "yeah, but BLM!"

I attended the Ottawa BLM protest; everyone was wearing masks, being respectful, and people of all colour and creed were coming together to advocate for universal civil rights. There was no threatening and terrorizing locals at all hours, rushing a homeless shelter, waving hate flags, and demanding the sitting government be deposed and replaced with a panel of the like-minded. It was a one-day protest, it took place in cities across Canada, and it was notable for the absence of conflict.

I took the light rail around the current protest, and I saw a woman getting on without a mask and yelling at everyone around her. These people are feeling enabled to behave like children, and for what? The longer they stay, the more convoluted their message, the more the general public loses patience as this goes for protest to full-on occupation.


----------



## budda

Check out the ottawa diaries on fb or instagram (probably twitter but i havent checked) for a first-hand account. Its not good, no matter how people try to paint it.


----------



## JSanta

If you show up to a rally to protest vaccines and those around you are waving Nazi flags, we know what the protest is actually about. Desecrating the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the Terry Fox statue are beyond the pale, not to mention the individual violence taking place.

Again, it's fairly obvious what this is all really about. Not to mention that these truckers protesting the mandate seem to neglect the fact they can't cross the border into the States because we have that mandate here, as Budda already called out. 

When I visited family prior to Covid right during the middle of the Trump administration, my family was quick to point out that there was similar sentiment in Canada as well. While we have seen some embrace of the far right topics, I think the important distinguishing factor is that the Conservative party in Canada hasn't openly embraced hate and racism in nearly the same level we've seen in the States. I hope that continues.


----------



## Xaios

JSanta said:


> While we have seen some embrace of the far right topics, I think the important distinguishing factor is that the Conservative party in Canada hasn't openly embraced hate and racism in nearly the same level we've seen in the States. I hope that continues.


I guess, but the true crazies have instead simply opted to form the PPC. Also, remember Andrew Scheer's departing speech when he stepped down as leader? Full of crazy, basically full-on alt-right.


----------



## JSanta

Xaios said:


> I guess, but the true crazies have instead simply opted to form the PPC. Also, remember Andrew Scheer's departing speech when he stepped down as leader? Full of crazy, basically full-on alt-right.



Very good point, and I hope in part that he is as a person is part of the reason he was not trusted to continue to lead the party. Whereas here in the States, the Conservatives have full-on embraced the alt-right rhetoric, at least many if not most of them.


----------



## budda

Conservative party looking for a new leader - keep a close eye on that now I guess. 

My aforementioned friend got back on fb to spout about how we dont have our freedoms thanks to the vaccine mandate. It’s sad.


----------



## thebeesknees22

budda said:


> Conservative party looking for a new leader - keep a close eye on that now I guess....




Now is your chance to start your own far right crazies cult.


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> Now is your chance to start your own far right crazies cult.



extreme rights for cheese.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

There's a new Conservative party starting in Ontario too. The girl I know who ran as PPC federally was posting about it. Seems to be the pattern with Conservatives they splinter to form more extreme right wing party then eventually reunite due to splitting the vote hurting them but then merge again but further to the right.


----------



## spudmunkey

TedEH said:


> I definitely have seen the word "trillions" getting thrown around. Sometimes sarcastically, sometimes not. Sometimes falling back on "it was just sarcastic" after getting called out on it.



Schrodinger's asshole: waiting to say if something was a joke or not, based on the response.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> My aforementioned friend got back on fb to spout about how we dont have our freedoms thanks to the vaccine mandate. It’s sad.



This will never not be fun to post:


----------



## TedEH

So apparently, the protesters are now talking about wearing masks to protect them from the gas fumes from idling their rigs - but they're worried that they'll be bullied by their own side because a bunch of them are there to protest masks in the first place.


----------



## thebeesknees22

their go fund me had raised $10mil and it was suspended pending investigation. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/truck...spended-after-reaching-10-1-million-1.5765794

I wonder who controls their gofundme though, and if that money actually makes it to them or if someone is just pocketing it lol


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> I wonder who controls their gofundme though


From what I understand, it's being run by one of the founding members of the Maverick party. Who is also the lady suspected/accused of running away with some of the money. I have no idea how true any of it is.


----------



## spudmunkey

thebeesknees22 said:


> their go fund me had raised $10mil and it was suspended pending investigation.
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/truck...spended-after-reaching-10-1-million-1.5765794
> 
> I wonder who controls their gofundme though, and if that money actually makes it to them or if someone is just pocketing it lol



The way I understand it, any GFM of significant size gets paused until they can provide documentation showing they will be using the funds the way they say they will.


----------



## thebeesknees22

spudmunkey said:


> The way I understand it, any GFM of significant size gets paused until they can provide documentation showing they will be using the funds the way they say they will.



ahh i see. makes sense


----------



## zappatton2

So it seems every editorial has already decided that Pierre Poilievre will be the next official leader of the Cons. I expect the right is gonna get that much more polarized in this country, and Pierre will be all too happy to stoke that division for personal gain (as he has always done).

I think the party under him could solidify 30% of the vote, but considering the regional concentration of those voters, I can't ever see that version of the Cons posing a real threat. It's a shame, Canada needs competent opposition, and as much as O'Toole was a flip-flopper, his moderation was the only thing that made them electable among the fiscally conservative/socially liberal crowd.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

zappatton2 said:


> So it seems every editorial has already decided that Pierre Poilievre will be the next official leader of the Cons. I expect the right is gonna get that much more polarized in this country, and Pierre will be all too happy to stoke that division for personal gain (as he has always done).
> 
> I think the party under him could solidify 30% of the vote, but considering the regional concentration of those voters, I can't ever see that version of the Cons posing a real threat. It's a shame, Canada needs competent opposition, and as much as O'Toole was a flip-flopper, his moderation was the only thing that made them electable among the fiscally conservative/socially liberal crowd.




Yeah they likely will end up with no viable path to anything but who knows long time till next election and the world seems to spiralling by the day


----------



## ImNotAhab

Pierre Poilievre makes my skin crawl. It would not suprise me if he took of his shirt only to reveal he is helping regrow Lord Voldemort.


----------



## Xaios

The Beaverton strikes again: https://thebeaverton.com/2022/02/to...t-them-to-ticket-convoy-holding-city-hostage/


----------



## zappatton2

This honestly feels like an occupation every time I leave the house.

These people can't be given in inch. They need to learn that policy change comes from democratic action. Reasonable protest can move the needle, but holding a community hostage to get your way is not democracy, it's mob rule.


----------



## zappatton2

Whelp, no motive yet established, but this is messed no matter where you sit on the spectrum; https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-po...mpted-arson-in-centretown-high-rise-1.5771579


----------



## nightflameauto

zappatton2 said:


> Whelp, no motive yet established, but this is messed no matter where you sit on the spectrum; https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-po...mpted-arson-in-centretown-high-rise-1.5771579


What I don't get with shit like this is, what are we actually trying to accomplish? Like, in their minds, I'm sure they thought they were doing something, but how does hurting people that may or may not have anything to do with what you currently consider the problem help you? WTF? I'm completely lost on shit like this.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

nightflameauto said:


> What I don't get with shit like this is, what are we actually trying to accomplish? Like, in their minds, I'm sure they thought they were doing something, but how does hurting people that may or may not have anything to do with what you currently consider the problem help you? WTF? I'm completely lost on shit like this.



There are bad actors with no real affiliation or skin in the game looking for an opportunity to just cause pain and chaos.


----------



## zappatton2

The TV report mentioned that there was a confrontation earlier between one of the residents and protesters, but ties to that are speculative at best.

Regardless, those boosting the occupation are eager to paint this as "peaceful" (unlike all those bad Natives, with their rail blockades tying up infrastructure on their own land, totally worse, amiright?). 

But aside from the fact that keeping people up 24-7 with noise is actually classified as torture, and spitting on and harassing residents for wearing masks is less than inviting, my wife was talking to someone who mentioned when she left a gym wearing a mask, some men threatened her with sexual assault (something to the effect of "if you don't that mask off, I'll take everything off for you"), and when she called the cops, they said to take off the mask so as not to incite anything. 

Now, I don't know this person, could be BS, but it seems to me like this is the exact thing local residents are coming to expect. And when something serious happens, nobody's going to accept any responsibility, because "antifa double agents" has become the standard Excuse for the indefensible (when it's not "But BLM...").


----------



## TedEH

MaxOfMetal said:


> here are bad actors with no real affiliation or skin in the game looking for an opportunity to just cause pain and chaos.


On what basis? How do we know it wasn't one of the "very peaceful" protesters? How do we know it wasn't a counter-protester trying to instigate action against the truckers because nobody seems to be willing to do anything? How do we know it wasn't "ANTIFA", which I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone say yet.

Who in their right mind, with "no skin in the game" tries to murder a building full of innocent residents?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> On what basis? How do we know it wasn't one of the "very peaceful" protesters? How do we know it wasn't a counter-protester trying to instigate action against the truckers because nobody seems to be willing to do anything? How do we know it wasn't "ANTIFA", which I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone say yet.
> 
> Who in their right mind, with "no skin in the game" tries to murder a building full of innocent residents?



I mean, we've seen that here in the US. Folks with tenuous at best ties to one side or the other take advantage of the situation to start all out riots. 

_"Some folks just want to watch the world burn."_


----------



## TedEH

I mean, if someone just wanted to watch apartment buildings burn with people inside it, why wait for an anti-vax convoy to do it?


----------



## zappatton2

There was a lot of looting and destruction in the States by opportunists using the cover of protests to get away with shit. But yeah, trying to burn down a residential apartment, _while also trying to secure the doors shut_, is a bit beyond the pale. Either total psychopaths, or people so convinced of their cause, the lives of "those people on the other side" are entirely disposable.


----------



## TedEH

We've had some windows broken that I'd be willing to believe might be just opportunistic - they had pride flags in the window, and you could easily pin it on the truckers. Then again, it could just as easily have been a trucker who could pin it on opportunistic randos.
I still take issue with the idea that an anti-vax protest brings this environment of opportunity with them. If we weren't overrun with idiots, there would be no opportunity.


----------



## tedtan

It’s just people, probably not in their right mind, using the crown as cover so they aren’t/are less likely to be identified and prosecuted. It s not specific to the vaccine mandates or truckers, it could come with any large gathering.


----------



## Alberto7

Remember when we were stupid young teenagers and we'd do dumb shit like vandalize school property, yell stuff at strangers, or just hurt ourselves doing reckless shit, all for the sake of showcasing peepee size?

I think some people never get over that shit. Instead, those impulses blend in with the cynicism of adulthood and it turns into almost irrational hostility.

I really think those people were just angsty teenagers at some point and now have unresolved issues, and are still out and about doing harm with no ability to relate to their victims.

Edgy psychopaths.


----------



## TedEH

Maybe. I'm just not ready to discount that this could have been motivated by the protest itself. I'd say I'd like to be wrong, but if there's anything I'd like, it's for none of this to be happening in the first place.


----------



## zappatton2

I've been noticing online that there seems to be a 5-pronged approach to defending this occupation;

1) The "Whaddaya think you're better than me?" defense - That fact-checked, well-sourced points argued with nuance and intelligence are in fact acts of vile snobbery (see "Laurentian Elites"), and that conspiracy, anti-fact and anti-science views deserve an equal platform in the media, otherwise "leftist MSM lies".

2) The "but the Native blockades!!!" defense - Because previous Native and environmental protests disrupted large-scale commercial activities, it follows that occupying a city core and holding its residents hostage, while never letting them sleep and threatening them when they venture out in masks, is perfectly acceptable tit-for-tat.

3) The "Trudeau, worse than Hitler" defense - The argument that Trudeau is an aspiring autocrat looking to eat your freedom, then team up with shadowy glabalists to steal your precious fluids. Because there's nothing strong-men love more than hampering their domestic economies to set pandemic measures to protect the lives of their most vulnerable citizens. 

4) The "Antifa/BLM" double-agent" defense - That every terrible thing reactionaries get caught doing is a false flag event carried out by double agents working for the "People's Front of Antifa" (not to be confused with the Antifan People's Front), in concert with BLM and the Reverse Vampires.

5) The "Woke" defense - Woke! Wokedy woke, woking woke and wokism, but especially woking wokers with wokes gender neutral bathrooms woke wokism. _Woke_!!!


----------



## Alberto7

TedEH said:


> Maybe. I'm just not ready to discount that this could have been motivated by the protest itself. I'd say I'd like to be wrong, but if there's anything I'd like, it's for none of this to be happening in the first place.


Of course. The protests fall into what I blanketed as "cynicism of adulthood". It's just because I also don't really fathom anyone but a psychopath with unresolved issues doing something as horrific as that. The protests just provide the motive. Some people will fervently adopt a belief just because it justifies their shitty nature. Sadly, the concept of "liberty" that gets thrown around so much by the right is often misconstrued by some of these individuals as a free pass to do shitty things.

In other words, protests like these rile people up, and it doesn't take much for some of the more unstable individuals to start doing terrible things. Happens both with left wing and right wing protests. Or any protest. That's why they often turn violent.

It just so happens in this instance that a lot of the right wing seems to be condoning the awful stuff we're seeing at the moment.

I'm just rambling at this point. It sucks coming from a politically unstable country and seeing the same shit I've seen a million times and got away from happening again in my backyard.


----------



## zappatton2

Now the talk is that the convoys are gonna start blocking schools. Cuz' ya know, kids wearing masks is child abuse, but apparently, hauling your children to blockades to essentially use as human shields is a-okay.

If ever I were inclined to look down my nose at the States from my lofty Canadian perch, I have been thoroughly disabused of such conceit.


----------



## budda

Yeah that is messed up.


----------



## TedEH

I saw a photo the other day where they had kids lined up to make a physical barrier. A literal shield made of kids. If that's real, it's disgusting. News this morning of them circling around schools in their trucks too, for who knows what reason.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> I saw a photo the other day where they had kids lined up to make a physical barrier. A literal shield made of kids. If that's real, it's disgusting. News this morning of them circling around schools in their trucks too, for who knows what reason.



I finally found a reason to have kids. Never know when I may need a human shield!


----------



## budda

Saw this one twitter in response to police hugging and encouraging members of the 402 blockade:


----------



## TedEH

Surprised there isn't more activity on this thread. Just saw a video of two full buses of officers being dropped off downtown. Parliament is suddenly fenced in. Is something actually going down now, or is this another case of everyone getting all excited over nothing? Who knows. But plenty I'm sure are staying tuned to find out.


----------



## Crungy

I was wondering the same thing in this thread since Trudeau's announcement. Aside from what you mentioned, have noticed any change in the situation near you?


----------



## TedEH

I'm not right downtown so I can't see it firsthand, but what I'm seeing online seems tense. Pat King is back and still in town. Buses full of cops. Fences being put up. A bunch of infighting / people yelling at eachother. A homeless guy showed up and had a fit and threw garbage around. So I guess more of the same so far. The Qanon queen lady is also supposedly back downtown again. And the honking started at something like 6am today.

I've been making the mistake (?) of watching some of the question period and council meetings, etc., and part of me wishes I didn't. I was comfortable under the rock of not knowing how many CPC members use the same talking points as the protesters, don't know what the words "dictator" or "communism" mean, etc. All of the things I would have expected from PPC types coming out of the mouth of every CPC and Bloc member who spoke. It's like watching a bad school yard argument. All name calling and nobody knowing what they're talking about. I was never "a fan of" Trudeau, but honestly, I dunno how he keeps as calm as he does while having so much shit thrown at him and sticking to his guns.

And then of course the news bites that come out of it are just dumb headlines that pick a team then cherry pick out of context quotes from the other team. What a shit show. What a trash fire. IMO the truckers have already won in a way. They've turned this city, this country, and this government into a joke. Or maybe exposed the joke it's always been? Either way. I'll be happy when I go back to the comfort of living under a political rock without worrying a civil war is about to break out.


----------



## zappatton2

Yeah, this is gonna get shitty, or rather, much shitti_er_, in the coming days. I think both sides should lay off the hyperbole. Though this protest is largely the product of well-heeled right-wing extremist groups, both domestic and international, it really doesn't serve Trudeau well to accuse all the protesters or the federal Conservatives of "standing with the swastika/confederate flag wavers". 

That said, there is a strong anti-democratic element here, and most protesters seem oblivious to the fact that they don't get to make policy decisions for the rest of us through holding the city core and its residents hostage. Protest and civil disobedience have a long and valid history here, but open insurrection is a different beast altogether.

It does seem ironic how most of these people think Trudeau is some aspiring autocrat, when they keep being given endless chances to smarten up. I don't think shutting down Moscow with "[email protected]&k Putin" signs would have garnered so many "pretty pleases".


----------



## TedEH

zappatton2 said:


> it really doesn't serve Trudeau well to accuse all the protesters or the federal Conservatives of "standing with the swastika/confederate flag wavers"


It really doesn't, mostly because people have trouble seeing past singular talking points. Yeh, the guy has made some argumentative flubs, everyone has. I'd like to believe that people can recognize frustration and not throw out his whole position on hyperbole, but that gives people too much credit. In much the same way that I think the opposition can be occasionally right, but a good zinger here and there doesn't make the core of your position any more reasonable.

I normally stay out of proper politics, thinking that it's something probably elevated from your average internet-based bad-take rhetorical shit-flinging, most of which would go over my head, and...... I guess it's not. The ol' faith in humanity has been on a roller coaster this whole time, and the ride hasn't finished yet.


----------



## Alberto7

Crungy said:


> I was wondering the same thing in this thread since Trudeau's announcement. Aside from what you mentioned, have noticed any change in the situation near you?


Thankfully, we haven't felt it as much in Montreal, outside of a couple of organized protests. That alone isn't anything out of the ordinary for the city though, as there's usually a protest of some kind happening downtown about once a week. Granted, I don't leave my apartment much these days, so I may have missed some of it. The topic is very much alive here though, and a lot of feelings surrounding the situation.

Really hoping the situation around Ottawa/Gatineau ameliorates sooner rather than later. That looks nasty, and it reminds me of things I'd rather not remember.


----------



## TedEH

Bonus points for including Gatineau. I think a lot of people have forgotten we exist during all this (unless it's convenient to throw us under the bus for something). There's been threads about the little out-of-town camps the truckers have setup as an alternative or backup to the one on Coventry. I was certain I saw another one of those camps just over the bridge in the Place des Festivals / Portage area - but nobody is talking about that one.


----------



## Alberto7

TedEH said:


> Bonus points for including Gatineau. I think a lot of people have forgotten we exist during all this (unless it's convenient to throw us under the bus for something). There's been threads about the little out-of-town camps the truckers have setup as an alternative or backup to the one on Coventry. I was certain I saw another one of those camps just over the bridge in the Place des Festivals / Portage area - but nobody is talking about that one.


Yeah, I find it funny how people forget, just because there's a provincial border in between. I've only ever been to the area twice, and both times for less than a day, but I've always thought of them as practically the same city. Dunno how off I am with that assumption though... But I think it's pretty natural to assume that if you have truckers in Ottawa, you have truckers in Gatineau.


----------



## TedEH

Alberto7 said:


> I've always thought of them as practically the same city


It basically is, if your starting reference point is in Gatineau. I can walk 10 minutes down the road and be staring into Rockcliffe Park, but this "isn't part of Ottawa" to some people, to whom a place like Barhaven (40 minute drive) definitely is. On a bike, I can make it to where the protest is happening in about 15-20 minutes.


----------



## zappatton2

I've always basically considered Gatineau and Ottawa pretty much the same city with a border through it. I live in Vanier, so not to ape our good friend Sarah Palin, but "I can see Quebec from my house".


----------



## budda

zappatton2 said:


> I've always basically considered Gatineau and Ottawa pretty much the same city with a border through it. I live in Vanier, so not to ape our good friend Sarah Palin, but "I can see Quebec from my house".


I grew up a few hundred feet from the province, but that specific bit isnt inhabited (except the beaches). 

Im not following closely because there is a lot going on.


----------



## TedEH

Shit's going down. One of the convoy organizers has been arrested. Even the small camp on the Gatineau side got a warning that they need to be out by tomorrow.


----------



## TedEH

Oh goody - woke up this morning to the news that one of the protest groups, after being warned to leave the grounds they were parked on, just moved into my neighborhood instead. Fantastic.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> Oh goody - woke up this morning to the news that one of the protest groups, after being warned to leave the grounds they were parked on, just moved into my neighborhood instead. Fantastic.


I’d say call the cops but…

Sorry you gotta deal with that. This could have been dealt with on day 3. And people still think its about mandates.


----------



## Drew

TedEH said:


> Oh goody - woke up this morning to the news that one of the protest groups, after being warned to leave the grounds they were parked on, just moved into my neighborhood instead. Fantastic.


That sucks - good luck, man, and I hope the annoyance is contained and dealt with quickly.


----------



## TedEH

Turns out there's a corner from which I can see both my apartment and the trucker camp at the same time. Exciting! But that's small fries compared to what's going on across the bridge:

We've got riot police now lined up and sweeping through downtown. People lying on the ground and playing dead. A few people using their cell phones as shields? Some really great parents using their children as shields. Some trucks are being towed away. Pat King has finally been arrested.

Strong recommend to give a quick scroll through the pictures and videos here to get a decent grasp of what's happening:


https://twitter.com/CarymaRules/media


----------



## zappatton2

A friend who lives in the area posted the most apt description of the experience;

"Feels like someone is just sitting on your lawn, having a party, confused that you aren't thanking them."


----------



## possumkiller

God what a shit show, man. I used to think you Canadians were so much better than us with your free healthcare and being overly nice. Brendan Frasier as Dudley Do-Right was the picture of pure Canadianness. But it turns out you guys are all ignorant, racist, genocidal fucks just like us!


----------



## budda

possumkiller said:


> God what a shit show, man. I used to think you Canadians were so much better than us with your free healthcare and being overly nice. Brendan Frasier as Dudley Do-Right was the picture of pure Canadianness. But it turns out you guys are all ignorant, racist, genocidal fucks just like us!


Super nice Canadians is one of the best PR moves ever.


----------



## TedEH

I've been getting a lot of use out of the word "brazen" lately.


----------



## Xaios

Apparently some of these protestors are jamming up 911 lines in order to intentionally disrupt emergency services. That's just disgusting.


----------



## Adieu

Xaios said:


> Apparently some of these protestors are jamming up 911 lines in order to intentionally disrupt emergency services. That's just disgusting.



Anybody find any leads to Russian gubmint trolls behind all this rabble-rousing yet?


----------



## possumkiller

Adieu said:


> Anybody find any leads to Russian gubmint trolls behind all this rabble-rousing yet?


Isn't that like the go-to scapegoat now? If it turns out your people are really shitty, just blame Russian troll farms.


----------



## Adieu

possumkiller said:


> Isn't that like the go-to scapegoat now? If it turns out your people are really shitty, just blame Russian troll farms.



Nah

Shit's real and rabble rousing is one of their core missions.


----------



## TedEH

Xaios said:


> Apparently some of these protestors are jamming up 911 lines in order to intentionally disrupt emergency services. That's just disgusting.


It's happened multiple times over the last few weeks. For bonus points, an MPP was tweeting encouraging people to do it. Edit: Not conservative anymore, he was booted from that team and is independent now.


----------



## TedEH

I know that I shouldn't use reddit and twitter as an indication of things, but I'm not feeling great about the emergencies act vote that's about to happen. Both because of how pervasive the anti-Trudeau message has gotten over the last few weeks, but also seeing reports that supposedly a lot of the protesters / truckers have just been camping outside of town waiting for their opportunity to come right back and retaliate as soon as the act is voted down.

I'd like to have confidence that we're mostly over this, and that we'll have made the point that Canada is not the kind of place where policy is decided via angry mob - but there's been a whole lot of talk, from people all over the political landscape, that escalation from here means very bad news for everyone.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

TedEH said:


> I know that I shouldn't use reddit and twitter as an indication of things, but I'm not feeling great about the emergencies act vote that's about to happen. Both because of how pervasive the anti-Trudeau message has gotten over the last few weeks, but also seeing reports that supposedly a lot of the protesters / truckers have just been camping outside of town waiting for their opportunity to come right back and retaliate as soon as the act is voted down.
> 
> I'd like to have confidence that we're mostly over this, and that we'll have made the point that Canada is not the kind of place where policy is decided via angry mob - but there's been a whole lot of talk, from people all over the political landscape, that escalation from here means very bad news for everyone.


I feel like even when the act gets turned off there won't be a total abdication of responsibility by local authorities if something starts again


----------



## TedEH

I guess I'm not surprised, but at least a little relieved. Watching the conservatives and bloc boo people who didn't vote their way is frankly embarassing.


----------



## nightflameauto

It's really sad to me the amount of misinfo I'm seeing spread about the protests and the government's slow reaction to it. My other hangouts online are teeming with stories of "peaceful protestors providing bouncy castles and handing out treats to residents being teargassed and beaten, then having their vehicles confiscated."

That doesn't quite jive with anything I've heard from people actually living in the area. And by doesn't quite jive I mean it sounds like utter and absolute bullshit. And as much as I hate to go down the conspiracy theory road, it does make you wonder if people are being paid to spew this garbage, and if so if it's the same "team" of folks that organized the rabble to begin with.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

nightflameauto said:


> It's really sad to me the amount of misinfo I'm seeing spread about the protests and the government's slow reaction to it. My other hangouts online are teeming with stories of "peaceful protestors providing bouncy castles and handing out treats to residents being teargassed and beaten, then having their vehicles confiscated."
> 
> That doesn't quite jive with anything I've heard from people actually living in the area. And by doesn't quite jive I mean it sounds like utter and absolute bullshit. And as much as I hate to go down the conspiracy theory road, it does make you wonder if people are being paid to spew this garbage, and if so if it's the same "team" of folks that organized the rabble to begin with.



It's half game of telephone, half bad actors. 

In the wake of the Jacob Blake shooting down here, depending on who you listened to, it was either an unmitigated war zone or quiet sit in, when it was never that simple, nuance and context was missing.


----------



## TedEH

Hearing about more convoys sprouting up, including in the US, feels very ominous. I have a feeling this freedom convoy business isn't over yet.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> Hearing about more convoys sprouting up, including in the US, feels very ominous. I have a feeling this freedom convoy business isn't over yet.


Not just north america. My dad says there was one planned in Belgium iirc.


----------



## TedEH

I know there's been one in Australia too, but I haven't been keeping track of it. We're soon to have a global abundance of FREEDOM.


----------



## Xaios

At long last, Canada can be the one exporting FREEDUM to the huddled masses.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Does this mean that now that I'm dual Canadian/'Merican, I can now export DOUBLE FREEDUUUUM when I go somewhere?  


I am.... Camerican Man. Here to bring unbridled freedum to the world. No one is safe!


----------



## Xaios

Apparently Trudeau dissolved the Emergency Act today, literally while they were debating them in the House.

It's an interesting move, although at the immediate effect is that it opens up the Liberals to criticism from other parties as to why they insisted on having them if they intended to drop them so quickly. Still, if the convoys rush back in, the Liberals can then point to the act and say "Yup, this was the only thing keeping the situation in check", and reactivate the Emergency Act for the long haul. Maybe even leave the provinces to twist for a day. "Nope, I promised I'd drop the Act when I didn't need it, _because you told me to_. Are you saying you want it back? Shocker!"

I assume at that point in time, some people will start saying how the only truckers who rushed back in were Liberal plants and it was a false flag operation so that Trudeau could become the tin pot dictator that they all swear he is, thus causing a schism between some of the protesting truckers and their former supporters who now think they're agent provocateurs.

I realize that I'm getting worked up over a hypothetical straw man, but if the past few years have shown me anything, it's that I lack the imagination to even conceive of the convoluted horseshit shell games that pass for right-wing politics these days. God I'm jaded. I also _sincerely_ hope I'm wrong, and that the whole thing just fizzles out.


----------



## Shoeless_jose

Yeah the amount of Trudeau dictator shit is ridiculous. Like this is nothing like Hong Kong security laws everyone arrested still getting due process ect super specific targeted use of financial measures ect and still gave everyone like a week long warning before taking real action.


----------



## TedEH

Xaios said:


> why they insisted on having them if they intended to drop them so quickly


I saw a pretty reasonable-sounding theory on reddit on the other day, and that is - it was kept long enough to demonstrate that he really did have the support of the majority that he said he did, but also everyone else was forced to show their hand. For all of the time people have spent trying everything they can to paint JT at a tyrant, and keeping in mind that this has been a big enough event even the "I don't follow politics" types are watching, a little bit of intentional/debatable overreach makes everyone who supports the truckers come out of the woods so that the average Joe can see plain as day how willing CPC + Bloc are to support a hateful movement if it's to their benefit. Even if you make the argument that it was a cheap play to keep people voting for him, I kinda don't care. No politician as above that kind of thing, so if everyone's gonna play that game anyway, I can't fault one person for playing along.

The takeaway for me, speaking from that "I try to keep centrist" and "I assume there's good and bad on all sides of things" and "I don't really follow politics" - the kind of person who could have been swayed a number of ways if I didn't know better - the CPC has been solidified in my head as a group of immature idiots who will gladly stick to their guns to the point of malice, going as far as supporting conspiracy theories, sedition, anti-science, harassment and occupation of a whole town, and then have the gall to get all accusatory with the person doing everything in their power (aka. doing their job) to keep the peace in the country's capital city.


----------



## TedEH

Xaios said:


> I assume at that point in time, some people will start saying how the only truckers who rushed back in were Liberal plants


I sometimes make the mistake of reading some of the social-circles of the trucker-supporting side, and if you can imagine it, it's been said already.

A part of me thinks (worries?) that they use this line of thinking, and accuse everyone of stuff like "psy-ops" and plants, etc - because they're already doing it themselves and just assume that's the game _everyone_ is playing. Like they've just decided "we're playing war now", and even though the rest of us really don't want to participate and just want to go about our lives, everything we do gets read as a "move" in this hypothetical "game" we're not actually playing.

I'd be VERY willing to believe that a bunch of army-larp-ers would invade a city and plant "bad apples" to stoke arguments and try to weaken their opposition. Like take the attempted arson case - the truckers insisted it was a "leftist plant" because the person caught on camera had dyed hair and a mask. You can't tell me that the truckers have zero supporters with dyed hair, and that they wouldn't stoop to wearing a mask as a disguise. Do I have any proof of that one way or another? Of course not. But that's the game they're playing. And they're playing it with people's lives. And they're insisting we're all playing the same game when we're not. If it really was just a rando opportunist, then fuck that guy. If it was a plant from either side, then extra fuck that guy and whoever thought it was a good idea to play with peoples lives that way.


----------



## zappatton2

My read on the matter is that the Emergency Act allowed for the tools to clear the occupation, from bringing together police forces from across the country, to seizing vehicles, to freezing the accounts that were bankrolling it, while still staying within the confines of the Charter. Even when cops were moving in, it was still one of the most careful and measures uses of authority I've seen ever used to disperse a protest (having been to more than a few legitimate protests in this city).

The running idea is that local forces are prepared for a return, that they have strategies in place, and that everything they're currently set up for no longer requires the authority of the Act. It does make me chuckle at how everyone supporting of the occupation made it sound like Trudeau was just looking for an in to make this a permanent authoritarian measure, only to visibly see it withdrawn in a shockingly short amount of time. Not that reality matters anymore, I'm sure a more ominous spin is in the works.


----------



## TedEH

If nothing else, I got to see one of the best screenshots to grace my eyeballs in recent times:


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> If nothing else, I got to see one of the best screenshots to grace my eyeballs in recent times:
> View attachment 103773



Oh God..... That guy....... I'm not sure a human being could be any more stupid than Tucker Carlson. Humanity devolved with that one.


----------



## nightflameauto

thebeesknees22 said:


> Oh God..... That guy....... I'm not sure a human being could be any more stupid than Tucker Carlson. Humanity devolved with that one.


Sadly, rumors are circulating he's trying to get a presidential bid. And with the number of dipshits that follow him, it might just work. And we thought the cheetoh was bad?


----------



## zappatton2

Well, this should be interesting. I'm sure it'll bring a few more angry "truckers" out of the woodwork;


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-singh-how-it-will-work-1.6393710


----------



## Xaios

zappatton2 said:


> Well, this should be interesting. I'm sure it'll bring a few more angry "truckers" out of the woodwork;
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-singh-how-it-will-work-1.6393710


I like all of it.


----------



## TedEH

Good news! The freedom protesters are back! But with motorcycles this time! It's Freedumb Convoy 2.0: Rolling Bunder.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> Good news! The freedom protesters are back! But with motorcycles this time! It's Freedumb Convoy 2.0: Rolling Bunder.


Can't they protest something more beneficial like ...I dunno... how house prices have gone out of control, and how that's F'd us all more than anything. ....no...no they can't...


----------



## TedEH

At this point I have no idea what they're actually protesting.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Bloody heck.

I just made a costco run. A big package of hamburger is running $35-$38 here in MTL. It's more than a big package of chicken breasts now. What the heck!

It used to be $15-$17 like two and half years ago. ....sigh..

at least pork is still reasonable.


----------



## Xaios

TedEH said:


> At this point I have no idea what they're actually protesting.


Oh, I'm sure it'll boil down to yet another bland flavour of "Fuck Trudeau." Just give it time.


----------



## zappatton2

Thankfully, the protest/rally was relatively eventless this time around. But the whole thing about "taking back" the war memorial/tomb of the unknown soldier was particularly beyond the pale.

I saw the speech conflating the "fight for freedom" of mandate opponents to those who died in war. If they think that claiming this monument exclusively for their cause shows honour and erases whatever shames may have been visited on it during the convoy protest, I think they're wholly mistaken, and belittling genuine sacrifice. 

Give me convenience or give me death is a great album name, but not so great an unironic battle slogan.


----------



## Xaios

zappatton2 said:


> Give me convenience or give me death


This is probably the most succinct summation of anti-mandate protests I've yet read. Bravo, sir. Bravo.


----------



## CanserDYI

edit: nvm


----------



## thebeesknees22

Language law Bill 96 adopted, promising sweeping changes for Quebec


Bill 96, the provincial government's controversial legislation aimed at protecting the French language in Quebec, has been adopted in the National Assembly.




montreal.ctvnews.ca





welp Bill 96 finally passed in Quebec. I wonder what the actual implications will be in the real world. 

I'm bouncing next year when my lease is up so it's all whatever to me as an anglophone. It'll be interesting to see how things change 5-10 years from now though.


----------



## TedEH

Not gonna lie, that legitimately worries me given that I just took a new job headquartered in Quebec.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> Not gonna lie, that legitimately worries me given that I just took a new job headquartered in Quebec.


oh damn.

ah.... better get on d'em francais lessons I suppose haha

I wish i didn't work 70-100hrs a week for most of the year so I would have actually had time to learn, but ugh.... I just can't with that many hours a week on top of trying to do my music stuff.

Quebec City is super pretty. If i were fluent i'd totally give it a go there. 

It's 2022...why can't i just download that sh*t into my brain? lol


----------



## budda

I was expecting a bump about early voting..


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> Quebec City is super pretty


I meant Montreal in particular, but same idea I guess.

I've tried to work on my French before, and it just doesn't stick. It's not like learning a couple o' random words/facts then you're good to go - learning a language is a huge challenge. I've been a Quebecer for 30 years, it's not an immersion problem. As unlikely as it is to really happen this way, if I'm suddenly forced to work in French, I won't be able to function.


----------



## zappatton2

Yeah, any time a Province doubles down on the Notwithstanding Clause to skirt past the Charter, good things do not follow. 

I am generally sympathetic to the desire to preserve one's language and culture in the context of a continent that is overwhelmingly English-speaking (Mexico notwithstanding), but the targets of these policies seemed aimed not _quite _as much at white Anglos, but at visible minorities, in very non-subtle ways.

What's weird to me is Franco-Ontarian and Acadian communities seem to get along quite fine preserving their language, without all these reactionary "cultural purity" hurdles. Even in the context of Quebec's sensitivities, this all seems beyond the pale in a so-called liberal democracy


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> I meant Montreal in particular, but same idea I guess.
> 
> I've tried to work on my French before, and it just doesn't stick. It's not like learning a couple o' random words/facts then you're good to go - learning a language is a huge challenge. I've been a Quebecer for 30 years, it's not an immersion problem. As unlikely as it is to really happen this way, if I'm suddenly forced to work in French, I won't be able to function.


oh nice! welcome to the hood! (I think you actually said that before and I just forgot lol)

i don't see things really changing in MTL, tbh. The OQLF tend to target mom & pop shops in MTL, and not the higher paying tech jobs. There's no way they'd make games or vfx suddenly work soley in french. All those jobs (and income tax monies) would be gone in a heartbeat if they did. 

I'm not sure how much the services would actually change in MTL either since there are a lot of anglophones here, but only time will tell on that one.


----------



## TedEH

I never really understood the whole "protect the culture" angle either. It reads to me the same way as when people say "replacement". It feels like a clear signal that there are certain kinds of people who are unwelcome. It's like that comment I made in another thread, it's all just more racism in disguise.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> I never really understood the whole "protect the culture" angle either. It reads to me the same way as when people say "replacement". It feels like a clear signal that there are certain kinds of people who are unwelcome. It's like that comment I made in another thread, it's all just more racism in disguise.


It is. 100%.


----------



## thebeesknees22

A few people were having a minor meltdown at work over bill 96. 

HR had to send an email out lol

I'd almost put money on there being a good sized exodus from MTL in my industry. The only question is where us nomads will end up.


----------



## Alberto7

I work in aerospace (for now) in Montreal. I'm not super sure we'll be too affected for now, given that (Bombardier aside) most of the big aerospace companies in Mtl operate 95% in English. That's a stupid amount of money that the QC government would essentially be pushing out if this is enforced heavily.

I really see this as a message from the government that they don't take kindly to certain minorities and anglophones in general, and their point is to slowly drive them out.

Well, message received.

I am more or less intermediate level in French, (just gotta work on my confidence a bit) mostly because the bubble I developed in after immigrating 10 years ago is anglophone. Most of my friends were either from the US, fully anglo communities, or internationals, I did my studies in English, and my industry is almost 100% in English. Even if I took immersive courses in French, I'd forget it due to lack of practice, as it happens to most anglos in Montreal.

This is the fourth country I've had to live in, and I know first hand how difficult it is to integrate into a community and achieve a proper sense of belonging. I worked my freaking ass off to be able to peoperly fit into English-speaking communities. I learned English and almost completely got rid of my accent, and assimilated a ton of North American culture in order to fit in. And English is comparatively an easy language to French. I'll always be an outsider in a French community, whether because of my accent or my lack of cultural awareness. Montreal has always had the advantage (compared to the rest of Quebec) of leaving just enough room for both languages to coexist. But authorities clearly want that to end, so now I have to assimilate. I'm tired of this. And it sucks because my parents live here and my dad just retired, and I would really love to be there for my parents during the later stages of their lives, but I feel like I am being pushed out. If they weren't here, I would leave in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I just had to rant. This has really frustrated me today, and it means I now have to seriously re-asses my plans for the future. I may just have to rethink living in the West Coast and convince the missus that Vancouver is nice.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Alberto7 said:


> I work in aerospace (for now) in Montreal. I'm not super sure we'll be too affected for now, given that (Bombardier aside) most of the big aerospace companies in Mtl operate 95% in English. That's a stupid amount of money that the QC government would essentially be pushing out if this is enforced heavily.
> 
> I really see this as a message from the government that they don't take kindly to certain minorities and anglophones in general, and their point is to slowly drive them out.
> 
> Well, message received.
> 
> I am more or less intermediate level in French, (just gotta work on my confidence a bit) mostly because the bubble I developed in after immigrating 10 years ago is anglophone. Most of my friends were either from the US, fully anglo communities, or internationals, I did my studies in English, and my industry is almost 100% in English. Even if I took immersive courses in French, I'd forget it due to lack of practice, as it happens to most anglos in Montreal.
> 
> This is the fourth country I've had to live in, and I know first hand how difficult it is to integrate into a community and achieve a proper sense of belonging. I worked my freaking ass off to be able to peoperly fit into English-speaking communities. I learned English and almost completely got rid of my accent, and assimilated a ton of North American culture in order to fit in. And English is comparatively an easy language to French. I'll always be an outsider in a French community, whether because of my accent or my lack of cultural awareness. Montreal has always had the advantage (compared to the rest of Quebec) of leaving just enough room for both languages to coexist. But authorities clearly want that to end, so now I have to assimilate. I'm tired of this. And it sucks because my parents live here and my dad just retired, and I would really love to be there for my parents during the later stages of their lives, but I feel like I am being pushed out. If they weren't here, I would leave in a heartbeat.
> 
> Sorry, I just had to rant. This has really frustrated me today, and it means I now have to seriously re-asses my plans for the future. I may just have to rethink living in the West Coast and convince the missus that Vancouver is nice.


That's all completely understandable. There'll be a lot of people in the same boat.


----------



## budda

Ontario election bump


----------



## thebeesknees22

my guess is, it's a longshot on anything changing.


----------



## Xaios

Blows my mind.


----------



## zappatton2

It amazes me how someone like Ford can brandish that "working-class, blue collar" street cred, while being terrible for workers, particularly during the pandemic. And let's not even mention private nursing homes and that absolute debacle that cost so many senior Ontarian their lives, with little change in policy and no justice served.

I don't understand how he gets away with what he gets away with, but this election looks like it's still gonna be a cakewalk for him. Still, gonna get out and do my part.


----------



## JSanta

Not being a resident any more prevents me from being able to vote in the provincial elections, but glad to see you all are getting out there!


----------



## thebeesknees22

welp, that went about as expected.


----------



## BlackMastodon

thebeesknees22 said:


> only question is where us nomads will end up.


Come to Windsor, the tropical wang of Canada: where housing once was cheap and is now unattainable for most locals and we hang nearly our entire economy on the manufacturing industry.


----------



## thebeesknees22

BlackMastodon said:


> ... where housing once was cheap and is now unattainable for most locals ....


I think.... i think that's everywhere in Canada now.  


I gave up on having any hope of ever being able to afford a house in Canada. I'm packing my bags next year and I'll be heading back down south. 

The market is just sooooo far gone here that I don't see it being fixed for a long long time....if ever.


----------



## JSanta

Seeing reports from where my family lives in the Waterloo area that less than half of registered voters got out and voted. PCs picking up an even stronger majority.


----------



## budda

43% turnout. Lowest it’s been or something like that. 

Things are about to get worse. As a parent married to a hospital employee with family at end of life, Im pretty pissed off. 

As Killer Mike said “plot, plan, strategize and organize” - time to get into things at the community level so we can see the changes we want.


----------



## SnowfaLL

Can't wait to move out of Ontario... this province is basically like living in the US. It's such a difference from the Maritimes =[


----------



## budda

SnowfaLL said:


> Can't wait to move out of Ontario... this province is basically like living in the US. It's such a difference from the Maritimes =[


But where is definitively better?


----------



## zappatton2

Whelp, I guess we'll find out how much Canadians take to reactionary populism in the next general election.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-leadership-election-results-1.6578329


----------



## thebeesknees22

zappatton2 said:


> Whelp, I guess we'll find out how much Canadians take to reactionary populism in the next general election.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-leadership-election-results-1.6578329


UGh.... yeah I read that earlier. Poilievre is such a creepy angry little slimeball.


----------



## budda




----------



## jwade

I'm no fan of JT but Poillievre as PM would be a very bad situation.


----------



## budda

Apparently next Monday is supposed to be a national holiday. Hm.


----------



## Xaios

budda said:


> Apparently next Monday is supposed to be a national holiday. Hm.


Yet to be confirmed from what I see.


----------



## budda

Xaios said:


> Yet to be confirmed from what I see.


I have a feeling pretty much every employer is gonna try to fight it.


----------



## jwade

It's not, it's a federal employees thing. The rest of us are provincial workers, so no paid day off apparently.


----------



## TedEH

Not the most exciting news, but it's vote day for the Quebecers here.


----------



## Vostre Roy

Voted by anticipation last week as I'm up in Nunavut for work. My cynical level was pretty high towards the results but voting is important nonetheless.


----------



## zappatton2

Sadly, I think Legault is gonna sweep this with his full populist schtick. My hope it that if he wins, it will be despite of, rather than because of, his anti-immigrant policies and vitriol. We don't need more political leaders casting themselves as the representatives of the "true citizens", while casting anyone they don't like as the dreaded "other", to be targeted and demonized.


----------



## thebeesknees22

I didn't even bother since I plan on moving next year. *next project ending pending. 

This province is whatever to me at this point. I care not what they do.


----------



## TedEH

I'd like to have that attitude, but since starting to work in a Montreal-based company, I feel more invested in what happens in Quebec than I did before.


----------



## thebeesknees22

welp... that QC election was no surprise.

I'll go back to planning my escape now. lol


----------



## TedEH

I'm exactly as disappointed as I expected to be. I guess that's not news. Came across some reddit posts making fun of how the only areas that voted differently seem to be the majority anglophone regions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## thebeesknees22

haha yeeeeep


----------



## Vostre Roy

I can't say that I understand the feeling given that being a french speaking straight white male brings me as far as possible from being a minority in Quebec lol

What does fuel my cynicism towards this election, and basically towards the federal one that will come sooner or later, is very well shown in this graph:




With 41% of the popular vote, the CAQ holds 72% of the possible seats at the parliament. Then you look at the next best three, who virtually have 1% of difference between each others, but the one out of those three that has won the least percentage (PLQ, 16.8% of the seats) of vote have twice as much seats than the one that has won more in percentage (QS, with 8.8% of the seats). Then you have the PQ who did an historic low of 3 seats (2.4%) with a popular vote that was a little better than the PLQ. Even the PCQ, whom I'm not a fan of personally but still represent 13% of the popular vote, end up with absolutely no one to represent them at the parliament. 

Every election for the past what, 15 years or so, talks about "Proportional Representation" (it was even a promise from the CAQ before they got elected last time), but when they get into the position to actually do something about it, then the actual system becomes fine since it allowed them to win.

This system is broken. But I can't recall being so obvious since I've been old enough to vote.


----------



## Drew

As a Bostonian, a thread about Canadian politics always makes me think of this: 









Pretty Cute Watching Boston Residents Play Daily Game Of ‘Big City’


‘It’s Fun Watching Them Hustle And Bustle Around Like They Live In A Major Metropolis,’ Nation Says




www.theonion.com





Hope it provides a few laughs at least!


----------



## thebeesknees22

Drew said:


> As a Bostonian, a thread about Canadian politics always makes me think of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty Cute Watching Boston Residents Play Daily Game Of ‘Big City’
> 
> 
> ‘It’s Fun Watching Them Hustle And Bustle Around Like They Live In A Major Metropolis,’ Nation Says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theonion.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope it provides a few laughs at least!


lol
Before I moved to Canada I always thought not much happened up here in terms of politics, but it's actually quite...iinnnnteresting. haha

There's the same far right group brewing up here that's down south, and it's suuuper weird to watch. They may actually take power in the next round or two, because Liberals can't seem to be able to do anything about the cost of living. I think if they can't figure it out they'll have a hard time staying in power since at the end of the day most people just want to live their lives and be able to afford to live comfy.

In terms of cost of living and that side of politics, I feel like Canada is about 5-7 years ahead of the US in terms of wiping out the middle class. It's ...just....so....expensive.. here. I don't know how people with normal jobs get by tbh. There's no way the average person can be saving for retirement or to be able to afford a downpayment on property at this point with as much as things are. 

I have a good job, but I myself am having to essentially live the monk life and live as cheap as possible (not counting music gear stuff), and I still can't get ahead to be able to afford a house at this point. It's just so completely F'd that it's hard to describe to someone unless they're experiencing it as well.

...the whole situation is super frustrating, and there's not much anyone seems to be able to do about it. 

So my take on Canadian politics at the moment is..... I need an escape plan lol. It's just a bit tricky with my industry and jobs being tied to tax breaks.


----------



## TedEH

thebeesknees22 said:


> I don't know how people with normal jobs get by tbh. There's no way the average person can be saving for retirement or to be able to afford a downpayment on property at this point with as much as things are.


The simple answer is that they don't. They rent indefinitely, and live paycheck to paycheck.

Something that gets me is that there's this weird gap in the middle - of people who _should_ feel well off, but still don't. Like if you're sitting at that level where you're "technically ok" but just getting by - as in you've balanced everything to 0 - you can't save, but you won't stave - you'd think that adding another 10-20k would make you pretty comfortable, right? But it doesn't. The gaps in the costs of those kinds of lifestyle differences are wider than the gaps in pay.

Something like if you wanted to upgrade your apartment. You can't really do it, because you're in a race with the rent/value - if you move, you lose your current low rent and get stuck with a lower-value-for-your-dollar living situation. So the real barrier to where it becomes a meaningful value again is buying - but that's a whole can of worms in itself. So even you get a sizeable raise and think "yeh, I should really upgrade my digs", your options are to pay out the nose or pay out the nose for another reason or just stay where you are.


----------



## Drew

TedEH said:


> Something like if you wanted to upgrade your apartment. You can't really do it, because you're in a race with the rent/value - if you move, you lose your current low rent and get stuck with a lower-value-for-your-dollar living situation. So the real barrier to where it becomes a meaningful value again is buying - but that's a whole can of worms in itself. So even you get a sizeable raise and think "yeh, I should really upgrade my digs", your options are to pay out the nose or pay out the nose for another reason or just stay where you are.


This is actually a pretty good point on more of a global level - i's especially acute now with the swings in real estate/rent values we've seen in the last two years thanks to the pandemic, but if you locked in a pretty good rent in the depths of the pandemic, even getting pretty hefty rent increases in the next couple years may still make it cheaper to stay where you are, and the "cost" of "upgrading" to a nicer place is going to be pretty prohibitive, so a "lifestyle-changing" amount of money isn't 10-15%, it's more like 30-50%.


----------



## TedEH

Hell, I've something like doubled my income since the rona started, and I still stay in my little shitty apartment, 'cause I've been here long enough that I pay under $800/mo for it. The same place, if I moved out and back in, would double in price immediately.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> Hell, I've something like doubled my income since the rona started, and I still stay in my little shitty apartment, 'cause I've been here long enough that I pay under $800/mo for it. The same place, if I moved out and back in, would double in price immediately.


dang! $800 mo! 

You'd totally be paying double at least if not more if you moved now depending on the area haha


----------



## TedEH

Aaaaaaaand it's 2 bedroom, open concept, big bathroom, laundry hookups and everything in the unit, etc. I've got friends across the river who pay $2k+/mo for half of this space and nowhere near the convenience or privacy. The trade-off being that it's kinda run down, and there's no reason to believe the owners will update it any time soon if there's no urgency to it.


----------



## zappatton2

I bought a house in '06, currently looking to move since we've been single income for over a decade and I'd like to downgrade (plus, I'd rather live in a condo situation for maintenance, as my house is falling apart, I can't afford to fix it up, and I have zero desire to go on Youtube trying to learn handyman tricks). I figure I'll get enough to pay off the remaining mortgage and put down a decent deposit on a new one.

That said, kinda regret ever buying. I had a great apartment in the heart of the city, two floors, two balconies, two bedrooms, roughly $1000 a month in '05, and if I had stayed, rent control could have kept it reasonable. Buying a house was something I always felt like I _had _to do, but I just can't maintain a house, didn't really think it through.

All to say, I'm jumping back into the market, though maybe at the worst time considering the volatility of everything right now.


----------



## thebeesknees22

zappatton2 said:


> I bought a house in '06, currently looking to move since we've been single income for over a decade and I'd like to downgrade (plus, I'd rather live in a condo situation for maintenance, as my house is falling apart, I can't afford to fix it up, and I have zero desire to go on Youtube trying to learn handyman tricks). I figure I'll get enough to pay off the remaining mortgage and put down a decent deposit on a new one.
> 
> That said, kinda regret ever buying. I had a great apartment in the heart of the city, two floors, two balconies, two bedrooms, roughly $1000 a month in '05, and if I had stayed, rent control could have kept it reasonable. Buying a house was something I always felt like I _had _to do, but I just can't maintain a house, didn't really think it through.
> 
> All to say, I'm jumping back into the market, though maybe at the worst time considering the volatility of everything right now.


I feel like for a "safe" er-er... retirement a person almost has to have a house a piece of property bought and paid for. 

Renting on a fixed retirement income seems risky to me after reading so many stories of older people getting their rent jacked up and them getting kicked out in recent years. Like where am I gonna go if I'm 80 years old and living off what little I saved up, and a paltry government pension? I don't want to be in a nursing home until I'm either bed ridden or my mind is gone lol

the other reason I want to own a house is just so I can go full blast with vocals, but if it weren't for that I'd just do an apartment so I wouldn't have to do yard work.


----------



## TedEH

zappatton2 said:


> Buying a house was something I always felt like I _had _to do


It's a goal for me, but I think it's gatta be the right place for the right reasons. I've got a couple of those automated home search thingies set up by realestate guys sending me listings all the time, but most of it's not even worth asking about 'cause it won't suit the reasons I want a house, which leads me to....



thebeesknees22 said:


> the other reason I want to own a house is just so I can go full blast with vocals


If I can't play drums in it sometimes, I don't want to own it. Which narrows down the options a whole lot, I know, but but I'm not going to make THAT big of an investment without being able to enjoy it to its fullest.


----------



## jaxadam

zappatton2 said:


> I can't afford to fix it up, and I have zero desire to go on Youtube trying to learn handyman tricks.



It's almost not even worth it to pay someone to fix something these days, because it seems most contractors don't give a shit. I'd say half of the time we've done projects or fixes we have to pay another contractor to come fix the botched job. No one cares about your house more than you do. I have found some great youtube channels for a lot of DIY stuff, and it's actually not only pretty rewarding, but can be fun and enlightening as well. I do know this though, people are shocked when they find out I'm not a very good electrician.


----------



## thebeesknees22

jaxadam said:


> ... I do know this though, people are shocked when they find out I'm not a very good electrician.


LIterally! haha


----------



## thebeesknees22

welp the average rent in Canada just crossed the $2,000 mo mark.  . 

ouch. 

I don't know how a person with an average job isn't drowning right now in bills, and the cost of living.


----------



## TedEH

As I understand it, the average hourly wage is < $30/hr. If you assume that you get full-time hours with that rate (which isn't a guarantee), then that leaves you about $1000/month to live off of after only your rent. That's not impossible, but it's a stretch. So many people are below that average though.

If instead you look at the minimum wage - 15/hr * 7.5hr weeks * 0.7 (taxes), minus $2k for rent gives you..... -$400 in debt. That paints a pretty clear picture to me that just surviving at all on a single minimum wage income is impossible, and the gap between that and a relative amount of comfort is pretty wide.


----------



## thebeesknees22

TedEH said:


> As I understand it, the average hourly wage is < $30/hr. If you assume that you get full-time hours with that rate (which isn't a guarantee), then that leaves you about $1000/month to live off of after only your rent. That's not impossible, but it's a stretch. So many people are below that average though.
> 
> If instead you look at the minimum wage - 15/hr * 7.5hr weeks * 0.7 (taxes), minus $2k for rent gives you..... -$400 in debt. That paints a pretty clear picture to me that just surviving at all on a single minimum wage income is impossible, and the gap between that and a relative amount of comfort is pretty wide.


Yeah, then there's groceries, utilities, and gas/car expenses for a lot of folks that would eat up that $1,000 pretty quick.

I wonder what will be the final straw that breaks the camel's back, and when it'll happen. 

It just feels like we're going to end up with a whole lot of homeless people at some point. 

what a mess...


----------



## budda

Even if they take transit, its still a hard time.

Shits fucked.

Edit: 2k average rent means its average 4k to move into a rental. Good lord.


----------



## Drew

thebeesknees22 said:


> welp the average rent in Canada just crossed the $2,000 mo mark.  .
> 
> ouch.
> 
> I don't know how a person with an average job isn't drowning right now in bills, and the cost of living.


I'm not minimizing the hardship a lot of people, in the US AND in Canada, are facing, making ends meet.

But, "average" is a concept that can be misused, often entirely by accident, very easily, especially when working with populations with wide distriutions.

Easy example - say you have ten possible rental properties in all of the country, two at $500 a month, four at $750 a month, five at $1,000 a month, and one at $5,000 a month. Your "average" rent is $1,400 a month... but nine out of ten Canadians are paying less than that, and the "median" rent, the midpoint of your distribution, is $750 a month, nearly half the average.

My suspicion is the average is as high as it is because very high end property values and rents have been increasing faster than property values as a whole, and there's been growing consolidation in urban areas. That means people living outside cities and not shopping for luxury properties are probably seeing very different prices than a national average.


----------



## TedEH

You might very well be right, but there are enough people that don't make nearly enough to even touch that average that I'm not sure the difference matters in this case. I expect a more reasonable "colloquial average", a reasonable "this is what you might expect" value, is closer to $1500 maybe, but that's still basically all of your money if you make minimum wage. And lots of people only make minimum wage.

I assume you meant to say median with the $750. I'm 99% certain that this number is wildly wrong either way though, unless you're only looking at places that have been occupied throughout the last decade or so and have managed to sort of "grandfather" their costs so low - which is the position I'm in right now. I literally don't know anyone else who rents this low. But that's a meaningless number for anyone who needs to move, since that's a number you'll never get anymore if you need anything more than a bachelor shoebox in a bad neighborhood - and I live in one of the "cheap" parts of Canada.



Drew said:


> That means people living outside cities and not shopping for luxury properties are probably seeing very different prices than a national average.


To give you an idea -

I live in a decent neighborhood, outside of one of the big city cores, in Quebec. 800 sq/ft. If I move out and back in, my rent will probably be about $1400. I pay half of that because I've been here for a decade and they can't legally raise it to match if I stay here.

A friend of mine lives in a "bad" neighborhood, closer to I guess the "outskirts" of the city - the units there are smaller than mine and go for about 900-1200.

If you cross the bridge into Ontario, where things are known to be more expensive, I have one friend who's in a bachelor inside the city core and pays about 2500/mo, and another who is outside of the city core, but not far from it, paying 2200/mo for a one-bedroom with a little spare office thingie in a high rise with no real privacy.

My last job had me working with a bunch of software people (who are reasonably well off compared to minimum wage) and they were in good shape if they were partnered, but all of the single guys ended up needing to bunch together to rent out individual rooms in the same houses to be able to afford to live in any proximity to the office. They live like college students, so to speak, which seems like it shouldn't be for people with those jobs.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> I'm not minimizing the hardship a lot of people, in the US AND in Canada, are facing, making ends meet.
> 
> But, "average" is a concept that can be misused, often entirely by accident, very easily, especially when working with populations with wide distriutions.
> 
> Easy example - say you have ten possible rental properties in all of the country, two at $500 a month, four at $750 a month, five at $1,000 a month, and one at $5,000 a month. Your "average" rent is $1,400 a month... but nine out of ten Canadians are paying less than that, and the "*mean*" rent, the midpoint of your distribution, is $750 a month, nearly half the average.
> 
> My suspicion is the average is as high as it is because very high end property values and rents have been increasing faster than property values as a whole, and there's been growing consolidation in urban areas. That means people living outside cities and not shopping for luxury properties are probably seeing very different prices than a national average.


You mean median. Mean rent is $1400. Mode would be $1000.


----------



## Drew

I absolutely did mean median, thanks. Fixed.  

But, I guess I'd say tune out the national average, and instead look at city averages or regional averages, or areas with more... normal, in the non-statistical sense, distributions, than the average of a country as a whole, which has a huge amount of variation? And maybe also look at averages by type - I'd be way more interested in the average 2br rental price in Montreal than I would be in the average rent paid in canada, if I wanted to make some concusions, you know?


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> You mean median. Mean rent is $1400. Mode would be $1000.


It's been one FUCK of a week, lol. But, yes, and I fixed the original.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> It's been one FUCK of a week, lol. But, yes, and I fixed the original.


I have a maths degree and I'm bloody well going to use it!

EDIT: Also Drew, you had 12 numbers there so the mean would be $1166.67 and the median would be $875.


----------



## TedEH

Drew said:


> I'd be way more interested in the average 2br rental price in Montreal than I would be in the average rent paid in canada, if I wanted to make some concusions, you know?


I haven't actually looked it up, but I wouldn't be shocked if this was actually well above 2k/mo. Montreal is also a very large place that I'm sure has a lot of variation in pricing.


----------



## bostjan

Median home price in Toronto is $1.36 million. In Boston, $795 thousand. Just to give us non-Canadians some idea of how much worse the housing market is in Canada than in the USA.


----------



## TedEH

Is that accounting for the currency conversion? Cause $1.3m CAD is like a billion American dollars.

Edit: I've actually got that backwards. 795k USD would be comparable to 1.1m CAD. I'm so used to seeing prices and going "man, if I actually want that, it's sooo much more to convert it to CAD".


----------



## bostjan

No, you're right, but it's still over 20% higher.


----------



## jaxadam

StevenC said:


> I have a maths degree and I'm bloody well going to use it!
> 
> EDIT: Also Drew, you had 12 numbers there so the mean would be $1166.67 and the median would be $875.





A MATHS degree?!? Pure or applied? You know what they say... if you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library!


----------



## StevenC

jaxadam said:


> A MATHS degree?!? Pure or applied? You know what they say... if you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library!


I did fairly even split of pure and applied modules, but in my final year it was mostly applied. Though it's just titled BSc Mathematics on my diploma.


----------



## jaxadam

StevenC said:


> I did fairly even split of pure and applied modules, but in my final year it was mostly applied. Though it's just titled BSc Mathematics on my diploma.



So less Combinatorics and more Frobenius method. That's good.


----------



## TedEH

Y'all math-a-magicians always impress me. I somehow managed to get this far without as much math as you might expect, and I've got some catching up to do while trying to study some signal processing stuff.


----------



## thebeesknees22

Drew said:


> I absolutely did mean median, thanks. Fixed.
> 
> But, I guess I'd say tune out the national average, and instead look at city averages or regional averages, or areas with more... normal, in the non-statistical sense, distributions, than the average of a country as a whole, which has a huge amount of variation? And maybe also look at averages by type - I'd be way more interested in the average 2br rental price in Montreal than I would be in the average rent paid in canada, if I wanted to make some concusions, you know?


this has a breakdown per city



https://rentals.ca/national-rent-report



no surprise that BC, and ON are all bananas high across the board. MTL is lower but the taxes other other things are higher so it kind of starts to even out a bit after that. 

I can't really find the median rent values without some more digging. But looking at that site, those prices fall in line with what I've seen when I've been searching around on where to move next.


----------



## jaxadam

TedEH said:


> Y'all math-a-magicians always impress me. I somehow managed to get this far without as much math as you might expect, and I've got some catching up to do while trying to study some signal processing stuff.



I don't just crack jokes on here. I also cracked them in class, too. 

Once in Modern Physics, our professor was up at the white board, and she was raising and lowering quantum numbers in an atom. She called it doing "magic math". Well, I took that golden opportunity, raised my hand, and asked her if you can only do magic math with magic markers and the class thought it was a lot funnier than she did.


----------



## bostjan

jaxadam said:


> A MATHS degree?!? Pure or applied? You know what they say... if you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library!


Haha, yeah, it really depends. I'm sure there are at least a few mathematics students out there at state universities boinking each other, but at my alma mater, I don't think anyone in the mathematics department was getting laid. I didn't major in mathematics, though (I was one class shy of a BA mathematics major), but I did take some great mathematics classes, like Numerical Analysis (two semesters - probably the most useful mathematics I've ever learned) and Partial Differential Equations (introduction to differential equations was required, but was 99.9% focused on ordinary differential equations, usually written out in ways that applied mathematicians would never come across, but PDE was very down-to-earth with tons of useful examples, like the wave equation, the heat equation, and then some nice vignettes of modifications of those).


----------



## jaxadam

bostjan said:


> Haha, yeah, it really depends. I'm sure there are at least a few mathematics students out there at state universities boinking each other, but at my alma mater, I don't think anyone in the mathematics department was getting laid. I didn't major in mathematics, though (I was one class shy of a BA mathematics major), but I did take some great mathematics classes, like Numerical Analysis (two semesters - probably the most useful mathematics I've ever learned) and Partial Differential Equations (introduction to differential equations was required, but was 99.9% focused on ordinary differential equations, usually written out in ways that applied mathematicians would never come across, but PDE was very down-to-earth with tons of useful examples, like the wave equation, the heat equation, and then some nice vignettes of modifications of those).



Identical here. I actually made it a point when I was out and about not to discuss my major (dual major in engineering and physics with a minor in math [one class shy as well, Math 201 - Foundations of Mathematics]).

I liked physics and math more than engineering. I took an elective class called Advanced Engineering Mathematics and at the same time I was taking a senior engineering elective Vibrations and Acoustics. I'm not shitting you, my notes from Advanced Engineering Mathematics and Vibrations and Acoustics would sometimes look identical, especially when we were doing wave propagation or a sphere with a uniform electrical charge. I liked learning tools like Bessel functions which just make you think differently by solving second order PDE's in spherical coordinates. It's like it gets easier but it gets harder!


----------



## bostjan

jaxadam said:


> Identical here. I actually made it a point when I was out and about not to discuss my major (dual major in engineering and physics with a minor in math [one class shy as well, Math 201 - Foundations of Mathematics]).
> 
> I liked physics and math more than engineering. I took an elective class called Advanced Engineering Mathematics and at the same time I was taking a senior engineering elective Vibrations and Acoustics. I'm not shitting you, my notes from Advanced Engineering Mathematics and Vibrations and Acoustics would sometimes look identical, especially when we were doing wave propagation or a sphere with a uniform electrical charge. I liked learning tools like Bessel functions which just make you think differently by solving second order PDE's in spherical coordinates. It's like it gets easier but it gets harder!


I know what you mean, things like Bessel functions are like heavier tools that get the job done a lot faster when you use them properly, but they just make a huge mess if you try to use them for the wrong job, and they're a little more difficult to wield without ruining your day by making a dumb mistake.

I think I took all of those classes, too, but the names were slightly different. The one I refused to take that would have given me a mathematics major was abstract algebra. Too many of my friends hated it, so I got shy about taking it. I only did a single major, but double minor.

Can we rename this thread "Canadian Politics and Transcendental Mathematics?"


----------



## jaxadam

bostjan said:


> I know what you mean, things like Bessel functions are like heavier tools that get the job done a lot faster when you use them properly, but they just make a huge mess if you try to use them for the wrong job, and they're a little more difficult to wield without ruining your day by making a dumb mistake.
> 
> I think I took all of those classes, too, but the names were slightly different. The one I refused to take that would have given me a mathematics major was abstract algebra. Too many of my friends hated it, so I got shy about taking it. I only did a single major, but double minor.
> 
> Can we rename this thread "Canadian Politics and Transcendental Mathematics?"



Advanced Engineering Mathematics was only one semester but it gave you credit for both MATH571 and MATH572 which were the final applied math tracks. It was a motherfucker. I had friends not mind Abstract and do well, but the one they all hated was Topology.


----------



## bostjan

jaxadam said:


> Advanced Engineering Mathematics was only one semester but it gave you credit for both MATH571 and MATH572 which were the final applied math tracks. It was a motherfucker. I had friends not mind Abstract and do well, but the one they all hated was Topology.


I dropped Topology. I thought it was going to be about knots in sheets and spaces, but it turned out to be two weeks of proofs about the most abstract concepts, and I kind of spaced out after that, partially because I was only auditing by week 3. I feel like I got maybe one or two things out of it that I might have used in one really weird random circumstance, though. 

Not sure what advanced engineering mathematics would be, but I took a physics course with a similar name (just replace "engineering" with "physics") - it was mostly review for me, because I had taken so much mathematics prior to that. Weird integrals, PDE, set theory, group theory... but there were a lot of really oddball coordinate systems that were introduced that I hadn't worked in before. That was kind of like what you mentioned about Bessel functions - those weird coordinate systems could really simplify a really messy problem, but, when they didn't, you wasted a ton of time for nothing, and, if you didn't "see" the trick you needed to do, you were bound to do something wrong. That was the last mathematics course I ever took, and that was nearly 20 years ago. I'd probably be hopeless trying to go over it now that I've been out of that mindset so long.


----------



## jaxadam

bostjan said:


> I dropped Topology. I thought it was going to be about knots in sheets and spaces, but it turned out to be two weeks of proofs about the most abstract concepts, and I kind of spaced out after that, partially because I was only auditing by week 3. I feel like I got maybe one or two things out of it that I might have used in one really weird random circumstance, though.
> 
> Not sure what advanced engineering mathematics would be, but I took a physics course with a similar name (just replace "engineering" with "physics") - it was mostly review for me, because I had taken so much mathematics prior to that. Weird integrals, PDE, set theory, group theory... but there were a lot of really oddball coordinate systems that were introduced that I hadn't worked in before. That was kind of like what you mentioned about Bessel functions - those weird coordinate systems could really simplify a really messy problem, but, when they didn't, you wasted a ton of time for nothing, and, if you didn't "see" the trick you needed to do, you were bound to do something wrong. That was the last mathematics course I ever took, and that was nearly 20 years ago. I'd probably be hopeless trying to go over it now that I've been out of that mindset so long.



AEM was basically numerical methods, convolution, line integrals, pde's, residue theorem (my favorite), shit like that. No pure concepts like groups, rings, or fields, etc. By the time I was doing my PhD (I didn't finish) I wasn't doing any math or science, but basically reports and contracts, and now that we have our own business (for almost 15 years, and the reason I didn't finish), I'm not doing anything but babysitting!

I had great professors that could "see" tricks like you mentioned... one I found fascinating was with integration by parts: basically taking the uv - int(vdu) part, and moving the -int(vdu) to the other side and whallah half of the time that shit either cancelled out something or did some fancy trick that made everything easier. Also, operators (like the momentum operator [ihbar d/dx] within an integral of a complex function) would do some magic tricks, too. Ahh, the good ol' days of magic markers...


----------



## budda

Someone on my street has a bunch of “fuck Trudeau” stuff. Naturally they wont feel compelled to take it down/off vehicles once hes done because how else would they be identified?

I think we’re back on course


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> I think we’re back on course


We're at least back from the detour of turning the Canadian Politics thread into the American Math Education thread.  If that's not what you already meant.


----------



## budda

Sorry @SteveC

We still need to actually check candidate platforms for our local election.


----------



## Xaios

TedEH said:


> We're at least back from the detour of turning the Canadian Politics thread into the American Math Education thread.  If that's not what you already meant.


Goddammit, is nothing safe from American imperialism?!


----------



## Alberto7

TedEH said:


> I haven't actually looked it up, but I wouldn't be shocked if this was actually well above 2k/mo. Montreal is also a very large place that I'm sure has a lot of variation in pricing.


It depends where you look, but closer to the downtown area, most 2 bedroom apartments I've seen are at the very least $2k. My girlfriend and I live in a pretty trendy neighborhood (and by upscale I mean it's mostly young professionals with no kids and a healthy amount of disposable income) very close to downtown, and we got a pretty good deal at just a hair above $2k per month for an ~850 sqft 2 bedroom apartment.

With that said, the area where I used to live a few years ago, a bit more removed from the downtown area (but close enough. Kinda crammed right between Hampstead, CSL, and NDG) and considered to be more of a "bad" neighborhood, currently has quite a few similarly sized apartments for ~$14-1500. When I lived there in 2018 we had a 2 bedroom apartment that we paid a solid $680 a month for, which still blows my mind. It was a shithole though.  My bedroom would go down to a good 14-15 Celsius at night during winter with the heating at full blast (STUPID hydro bills), we had a couple of bedbug scares in the building, and I had to be on my landlord's ass for two weeks to basically rebuild the kitchen because the walls were filled with black mold that wasn't visible when I first rented the place... but hey, I had cheap shelter for a year.  I do miss the maintenance guy at that place though... he was the sweetest Philipino man and was always down to help and have a beer. But I digress.


----------



## TedEH

Alberto7 said:


> I had to be on my landlord's ass for two weeks


Sometimes this is a huge chunk of why I'd rather own than rent. In theory, it's supposed to mean that so many things just aren't your responsibility, but in practice, I can't think of an example of a landlord who gave enough of a shit to do any real maintenance that wasn't an emergency. I told a story about a door that got kicked in like a year and a half ago, and I had to go over and screw the door back together because the landlord didn't care. It's still never been fixed. That door is being held on by a handful of screws and some hope.


----------



## Alberto7

TedEH said:


> Sometimes this is a huge chunk of why I'd rather own than rent. In theory, it's supposed to mean that so many things just aren't your responsibility, but in practice, I can't think of an example of a landlord who gave enough of a shit to do any real maintenance that wasn't an emergency. I told a story about a door that got kicked in like a year and a half ago, and I had to go over and screw the door back together because the landlord didn't care. It's still never been fixed. That door is being held on by a handful of screws and some hope.


Yeah, that's one of downsides to renting. I hear too many stories like that. Though it sounds like nowadays it's cheaper to just stay put and pay for whatever repairs are necessary, rather than buying or moving into a new rental.


----------



## Drew

TedEH said:


> Is that accounting for the currency conversion? Cause $1.3m CAD is like a billion American dollars.
> 
> Edit: I've actually got that backwards. 795k USD would be comparable to 1.1m CAD. I'm so used to seeing prices and going "man, if I actually want that, it's sooo much more to convert it to CAD".


I mean, I was going to make this joke, but it turned out to be just about right. 

I also really wonder where they're getting their $793k figure as the _median_ home value in Boston. I figured that's about where houses would _start._ Greater Boston Metro area, covering the eastern thid of the state and spanning about 8mm people, rather that the city proper, which is less than 50 square miles and has about 600,000 residents? 









Greater Boston - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> I mean, I was going to make this joke, but it turned out to be just about right.
> 
> I also really wonder where they're getting their $793k figure as the _median_ home value in Boston. I figured that's about where houses would _start._ Greater Boston Metro area, covering the eastern thid of the state and spanning about 8mm people, rather that the city proper, which is less than 50 square miles and has about 600,000 residents?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greater Boston - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


My cousin bought what I would call a fairly modest house in Forest Hills in 2018, and as I recall it was pretty close to that number back then.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> My cousin bought what I would call a fairly modest house in Forest Hills in 2018, and as I recall it was pretty close to that number back then.


Your cousin likely did VERY well on that purchase. Real estate values got pretty wacky in 2020 and 2021, and while they're cooling down now, they're still pretty high. 

Signed, Someone Looking To Sell His Condo And Buy A Bigger House In Boston.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> Your cousin likely did VERY well on that purchase. Real estate values got pretty wacky in 2020 and 2021, and while they're cooling down now, they're still pretty high.
> 
> Signed, Someone Looking To Sell His Condo And Buy A Bigger House In Boston.


Yeah, they sold in 2020 and moved here.


----------



## Xaios

__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca





CUPE giving one big middle finger to the Ontario PCs. I am so for that.


----------



## budda

Xaios said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbc.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CUPE giving one big middle finger to the Ontario PCs. I am so for that.


Is it just me or is invoking the notwithstanding clause a huge issue here?


----------



## zappatton2

Well, it's definitely become a handy tool for regressive governments to get around the Charter.


----------



## zappatton2

Man, watching the coverage of the EA inquiry, and knowing for certain that the cops and even CSIS agents were feeding intel to the KKKonvoy, is both stomach churning and not surprising in the slightest.

And man, reading the comments left after the G&M article on it, it seems like the occupation supporters keep rearranging the events to fit their narrative. A lot of "we never wanted to replace the democratically elected government" (despite their leaders appearing on the 6 o'clock news to state just that), and why couldn't JT just meet with the leaders (even though they were in their own power-struggle, and at no point were they anything beyond hostage-taking miscreants). 

And _jeez_, we all knew Pat King was a human troll, but the sheer level of dickishness from that man, and his weird little Alex Jones style cheering section of mouth-breathers, ugh!

I suppose The Beaverton best relates to their grievances; https://www.thebeaverton.com/2022/1...est-in-no-time-if-hed-just-let-them-kill-him/


----------



## thebeesknees22

So Ontario's anti-strike bill passed. That's some real F'd up shit that should send shivers down every worker. It's straight up stripping away workers rights. 

Now it's not only you will own nothing and be happy. It's you will own nothing and not have any right to protest low wages or a shit work environment and you will do what your told and be happy. ...kneel peasants!


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> So Ontario's anti-strike bill passed. That's some real F'd up shit that should send shivers down every worker. It's straight up stripping away workers rights.
> 
> Now it's not only you will own nothing and be happy. It's you will own nothing and not have any right to protest low wages or a shit work environment and you will do what your told and be happy. ...kneel peasants!


I feel like within it, striking also means garnished wages…


----------



## thebeesknees22

budda said:


> I feel like within it, striking also means garnished wages…


that's exactly where ON is going with this. Others will follow suit too if they get away with it.


----------



## budda

thebeesknees22 said:


> that's exactly where ON is going with this. Others will follow suit too if they get away with it.


Collapse in real time.


----------



## ImNotAhab

I do not live in ON but I really hope this blows up in Doug Ford & Co.'s face. It is horrendous government over-reach and the precedent it sets if they get away with it is very serious and frightening. 

My impression is that this they have miscalculated and this has gone down very badly with people in Ontario, anyone in the know feel free to correct me.


----------



## Xaios

Waiting for the truckers to show up in solidarity against this gross governmental overreach.


...


Aaaaaany minute now.


...


...Guys?


----------



## budda

@Xaios right??


----------



## thebeesknees22

No kiddin'......


----------



## jwade

TedEH said:


> As I understand it, the average hourly wage is < $30/hr. If you assume that you get full-time hours with that rate (which isn't a guarantee), then that leaves you about $1000/month to live off of after only your rent. That's not impossible, but it's a stretch. So many people are below that average though.
> 
> If instead you look at the minimum wage - 15/hr * 7.5hr weeks * 0.7 (taxes), minus $2k for rent gives you..... -$400 in debt. That paints a pretty clear picture to me that just surviving at all on a single minimum wage income is impossible, and the gap between that and a relative amount of comfort is pretty wide.


$30/hr? I make less than $40k a year, I don't know anyone that makes more than $25/hour other than truckers or construction type jobs.


----------



## TedEH

jwade said:


> $30/hr? I make less than $40k a year, I don't know anyone that makes more than $25/hour other than truckers or construction type jobs.


I have a theory that people who make more than that don't like to talk about it, because low wages dominate the conversation - therefor the bias that "nobody makes that much" is reinforced. In most circles, you can't really just admit that you're not broke, lest you endure the wrath of r/antiwork type sentiments. Best not to admit you're "rich" when everyone is shouting "eat the rich". Admitting that you're actually financially ok is a great way attract resentment from everyone else.

What I find really awkward is that the sentiment seems to be echoed by everyone, regardless of how well off they actually are. Minimum wage service workers scraping by and trying to feed kids: "man, today's economy is crushing us". Also engineers making 80k each doing the double-income-no-kids thing: "man, todays economy is crushing us" *sips $15 coffee".

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## zappatton2

I make a decent amount, a little under 70K, but with only a single income and a house to upkeep, I still manage to be plenty poor. Ironically, when I was in my 20's making next to nothing, I was living high on the hog, as I was splitting rent between 6 people and my expenses were next to nothing. Those were my guitar-buying days. Haven't done _that _in a while.


----------



## Alberto7

It's about lifestyle and how you fit that within your means. In the last 5 years I've gone from minimum wage to making "engineer money" after graduating. (Because, well, that's what I am.) I can tell you that I'm running margins that are proportional to the ones I had when I was a poor university student. I prefer it this way obviously, ("it's no shame being poor, but it's no great honor either") but even having a decent living now, I can still think of 100 different reasons why I feel like I need more money, same as I could back then. Those reasons stress me out just as much as the reasons I had back then. Life goes like that I guess. Take away one problem and it gets replaced with another, even if you just have to make that problem up in your own head. I feel like having worried for a long time about the most basic of necessities was traumatic to the point that I'm kinda wired to think that way, and now that I have much less of a reason to worry about those necessities... I worry about more superficial problems as if they were basic necessities. They just kinda fill that void now. It's tough to get that perspective, but feeling grateful and acknowledging my privilege does help. Not like I didn't have to fight to earn that privilege, but it's something that a lot of people in this country don't even have the opportunity to fight for.

Don't know how relevant that paragraph is to the whole conversation in a politics thread, but you guys made me think a bit, and I just kinda wanted to put it in words.


----------



## zappatton2

It will be interesting to see what sorts of conclusions the EA commission come to, but I do gotta say, I was impressed with Trudeau's composure and curtness during his testimony. Usually it seems like he talks around every question that gets put to him, but he pulled no punches here. Whatever the decision is, I'm glad he took the actions he did, a few more weeks of occupation could easily have descended into acts of real violence.


----------



## budda

zappatton2 said:


> It will be interesting to see what sorts of conclusions the EA commission come to, but I do gotta say, I was impressed with Trudeau's composure and curtness during his testimony. Usually it seems like he talks around every question that gets put to him, but he pulled no punches here. Whatever the decision is, I'm glad he took the actions he did, a few more weeks of occupation could easily have descended into acts of real violence.


I definitely think I missed a global political issue without twitter fwiw


----------



## zappatton2

I don't know if anybody's been following the shit-show that is the "sovereignty act" in Alberta, or Ontario's casual use of the notwithstanding clause to trample union bargaining rights, but it seems like Provinces taking the page out of Republican state tactics to get out of complying with Federal laws and regulations is becoming all the rage.

It would appear populist power grabs really are industry standard up here now too. My hope is that the Canadian electorate (beyond the usual reactionaries that gum up the comments section of every news article) are having none of it.


----------



## thebeesknees22

zappatton2 said:


> I don't know if anybody's been following the shit-show that is the "sovereignty act" in Alberta, or Ontario's casual use of the notwithstanding clause to trample union bargaining rights, but it seems like Provinces taking the page out of Republican state tactics to get out of complying with Federal laws and regulations is becoming all the rage.
> 
> It would appear populist power grabs really are industry standard up here now too. My hope is that the Canadian electorate (beyond the usual reactionaries that gum up the comments section of every news article) are having none of it.


The looney bin has definitely taken over that's for sure. 

These clowns need to all be kicked to the curb.


----------



## budda

Yeah it's ugly. And I feel like so many people are just trying to keep it together to get through "tomorrow" that the thought of fighting it and creating change is exhausting itself.

Definitely in the "find out" of times.

The Greenbelt thing has me furious.


----------



## soliloquy

can someone smarter than I, help me understand why there isn't a push to convert golf courses into high rise condos?
As in, the Ford-nation is pushing to destroy the greenbelt in favor of (most likely) non-high rise, and non-affordable buildings, which really isn't helping with the housing crises.
but given how environmentally bad golf courses are, and how little they are used by people from ALL walks of life...wont it just make sense to convert that into multi high rise projects?

anyone care to help me understand this? Am i missing something here?




on a slightly off-topic point, I have come across a few people who are in favor for the greenbelt being destroyed in favor for housing. Their reasoning: they left X part of the world to come to North America so they can NOT live in a highrise, but have a fully detached house. 
sure, chase the 'american dream'. 
Yet, in my experience, having traveling to about 25 different countries so far, and i'm quickly realizing that out of those 25 countries, majority of people are actually living in high rise buildings in metropolis areas. Hong Kong? Korea? Japan? Egypt? Pakistan? Costa Rica? Cuba? various parts of US and Canada? etc etc etc....why on earth do people believe that their lives should be catered to in North America, if they left their home country to find a bigger piece of land to live in? is this regarding 'keeping up with the joneses' bs? At the cost of future generations? At the cost of fragile ecosystems and environments? 

i honestly dont get it. What am i missing here? 
(mind you, i'm not saying immigrants are causing this, or they aren't welcomed here. On the contrary. I'm an immigrant myself. I personally am okay to forego a detached house, if whatever i'm looking for is accessible at a relatively affordable rate. Doesn't matter what i left behind. the expectation shouldn't really change....)


----------



## tedtan

soliloquy said:


> can someone smarter than I, help me understand why there isn't a push to convert golf courses into high rise condos?
> As in, the Ford-nation is pushing to destroy the greenbelt in favor of (most likely) non-high rise, and non-affordable buildings, which really isn't helping with the housing crises.
> but given how environmentally bad golf courses are, and how little they are used by people from ALL walks of life...wont it just make sense to convert that into multi high rise projects?
> 
> anyone care to help me understand this? Am i missing something here?


You’re asking the 1% to give something up? 




soliloquy said:


> on a slightly off-topic point, I have come across a few people who are in favor for the greenbelt being destroyed in favor for housing. Their reasoning: they left X part of the world to come to North America so they can NOT live in a highrise, but have a fully detached house.
> sure, chase the 'american dream'.
> Yet, in my experience, having traveling to about 25 different countries so far, and i'm quickly realizing that out of those 25 countries, majority of people are actually living in high rise buildings in metropolis areas. Hong Kong? Korea? Japan? Egypt? Pakistan? Costa Rica? Cuba? various parts of US and Canada? etc etc etc....why on earth do people believe that their lives should be catered to in North America, if they left their home country to find a bigger piece of land to live in? is this regarding 'keeping up with the joneses' bs? At the cost of future generations? At the cost of fragile ecosystems and environments?
> 
> i honestly dont get it. What am i missing here?
> (mind you, i'm not saying immigrants are causing this, or they aren't welcomed here. On the contrary. I'm an immigrant myself. I personally am okay to forego a detached house, if whatever i'm looking for is accessible at a relatively affordable rate. Doesn't matter what i left behind. the expectation shouldn't really change....)


I think with this one their point was that they are out of land in their home country, so they came to North America where there should be sufficient land to develop detached housing.

What they leave out is that that land is in rural areas, not urban.


----------



## thebeesknees22

tedtan said:


> You’re asking the 1% to give something up?
> 
> 
> 
> I think with this one their point was that they are out of land in their home country, so they came to North America where there should be sufficient land to develop detached housing.
> 
> What they leave out is that that land is in rural areas, not urban.


I'd totally move to a more rural area if my employer would approve working from home forever and allowed it. As of right now it's still...temporary. Although we know it's really going to probably be forever.


----------



## thebeesknees22

so alberta passed their sovereignty act









Alberta passes Sovereignty Act overnight


EDMONTON, AB - Alberta's legislature passed Premier Danielle Smith's controversial sovereignty act overnight -...




lethbridgenewsnow.com





That'll be interesting....

Sounds like they stripped out a lot of the things to give Smith and her cabinet the power to do whatever they wanted ....for now. 







I wonder what the end consequences will really be though or if it'll just be business as usual in reality.


----------



## budda

Ugh.

Dougie gets brewery tour, child dies in hallway of hospital due to lack of stretchers and beds…


----------



## soliloquy

budda said:


> Ugh.
> 
> Dougie gets brewery tour, child dies in hallway of hospital due to lack of stretchers and beds…



doesn't sound too different from our neighbors to the south. 
the value of a child further diminishes. 

My sis is a teacher. She's debating on quitting, as ford-nation decided to get rid of the special-needs classes, and is forcing EVERYONE to be part of the same class; regardless of their mental abilities. As such, one of her kids in class is really violent. He likes to connect ANY sharp object with flesh. His, others, doesn't matter. Cant suspend him. Cant send him to another class. Cant do anything. As such, the 39 other kids in the class have to waste their entire day defending themselves (while not learning, as they are too busy being paranoid on if a pencil, or ruler, or scissors, or glass from bottles etc can be used as weapon), while this child is looking to ways to hurt others. The parents are neglecting, thus really, nothing can be done other than watch the ship sink...

fun times. 

furthermore, a few other friends of mine are teachers, and also on the brink of quitting as they are actually getting abused by the students. Verbally, physically, etc. Its heart breaking as teachers really dont get the respect they deserve. They are not baby-sitters, yet are being treated as such.


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## wankerness

soliloquy said:


> My sis is a teacher. She's debating on quitting, as ford-nation decided to get rid of the special-needs classes, and is forcing EVERYONE to be part of the same class; regardless of their mental abilities. As such, one of her kids in class is really violent. He likes to connect ANY sharp object with flesh. His, others, doesn't matter. Cant suspend him. Cant send him to another class. Cant do anything. As such, the 39 other kids in the class have to waste their entire day defending themselves (while not learning, as they are too busy being paranoid on if a pencil, or ruler, or scissors, or glass from bottles etc can be used as weapon), while this child is looking to ways to hurt others. The parents are neglecting, thus really, nothing can be done other than watch the ship sink...
> 
> fun times.
> 
> furthermore, a few other friends of mine are teachers, and also on the brink of quitting as they are actually getting abused by the students. Verbally, physically, etc. Its heart breaking as teachers really dont get the respect they deserve. They are not baby-sitters, yet are being treated as such.


Oh wow, I didn't know you guys still had those till recently. The death of segregation of the really, truly disruptive kids that need dedicated therapists is one of the worst things to ever happen to education in this country. Too bad you got dragged down to our level. It's such a stupid thing, too, cause it's supported by idiots of all political persuasions (bleeding heart liberals that think the uncontrollable kids just need to be socialized and shouldn't be treated differently, dumb parents whose kids are often the ones with the serious problems and who want teachers to have to do babysitting and refuse to acknowledge that their kids might need different treatment, and radical conservatives that just want to destroy public education via any means necessary and send their kids to private schools where those "bad kids" aren't allowed and vote to force them into gen pop in public schools so more people transfer their kids to private schools, causing a vicious feedback loop).


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## budda

@soliloquy condolences to your sister, that is brutal. I know we have a couple violent highschools that repeatedly end up in the news. Its insane.


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## zappatton2

Yeah, there was a flashing moment at the start of the pandemic where Ford was actually seeming reasonable, but he's back to not giving a sh*t about anyone who isn't a land developer with deep pockets.


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