# Whites and racism.



## Odinvader (Apr 28, 2012)

Racial Equity Tools :: Essential Concepts and Issues :: Concepts :: White Privilege


> "Users, particularly white users, of this Web site may have emotional responses to the definition of white privilege and its use throughout this site, as might people of color. Whites have benefited over the years from being silent, for ignoring racist acts, and for remaining ignorant about the privilege whites receive based on the current racial hierarchy in the United States. White privilege is a system, like racism. It has to do with how whiteness is typically affirmed, respected and accepted, and how that affirmation and distinction is built into law, policy and institutions, as well as conferring individual benefits (like the ability to shop without being followed, or drive without being stopped)."




According to this, as a Euro/White American, if you do not join them in their fight for racial equality and fighting racism, then you are supporting the unfair system of White privilege. White privilege is seen as an evil, so what does that make you?

First, I have never liked the, "if you are not for me, then you are against me view", for obvious reasons. It's usually used by combative people as a baiting mechanism (whether it succeeds or fails is a different story).

My main point to make, however, is that I really do not care. I have nothing to do with racism. I strive to treat people well, unless they give me reason not to. In which case, I make a point of being direct about it, as to end the conflict concisely. 

We could band together as countrymen, respecting each others ethnic (a better term than "racial") differences, and move on. Instead, I see all this media hype about racism (despite a stark majority of the population not being racist), and the campaigns to promote diversity (i.e., our differences, rather than commonalities). It's counter-intuitive, wouldn't you agree?


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## CapinCripes (Apr 28, 2012)

read critical race theory. it will change your life. it changed mine. i used to be skeptical of white privilege but then after learning about critical race theory it completely changed my world view. oh and this might help.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 28, 2012)

If you think institutionalized racism doesn't exist then you're really naive.


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## TRENCHLORD (Apr 28, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> If you think institutionalized racism doesn't exist then you're really naive.


 
It always exist from all sides towards each other really.

It sucks that we humans seem to have that instinct of herding with those who are most like ourselves.
Sounds kind of childish when thinking about it.

I always likj to point to the great native cultures of north-america for example.
Some of the wars that raged between neighboring tribes continued for hundreds of years, wars that only sometimes could be explained by competition for resources.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Apr 28, 2012)

Author James Loewen writes on topics such as these, from a historical perspective. They are used in public education, along with Charlotte Iserbyt, John Taylor&#65279; Gatto and others... So I've recently heard. This is certainly not my specialist subject.



> From WikiPedia...
> 
> Loewen co-authored a United States history textbook, Mississippi: Conflict and Change (1974), which won the Lillian Smith Award for Best Southern Nonfiction in 1975. The Mississippi Textbook Purchasing Board did not approve the textbook for use in the state school system. Loewen challenged the state's decision in a lawsuit, Loewen v. Turnipseed (1980).[3]
> 
> The American Library Association considers Loewen v. Turnipseed, 488 F. Supp. 1138 (N.D. Miss. 1980), a historic First Amendment case, and one of the foundations of our "right to read freely." Mississippi: Conflict and Change was rejected for use in Mississippi's public schools by the Mississippi Textbook Purchasing Board on the grounds that it was too controversial and placed too much focus on racial matters. Judge Orma R. Smith of the U.S. District Court ruled that the rejection of the textbook was not based on "justifiable grounds", and that the authors were denied their right to free speech and press.[4]



Homepage
The Homepage of James Loewen: Author of Lies My Teacher Told Me, Lies Across America, and Sundown Towns



@CapinCripes

Interesting video. Thanks for the recommendation. 

Tim Wise (in the video) gets to the center of his lecture at around 30 minutes, if the introduction and following sections are a little too aggressive for your liking.

After looking at some related videos, this one provides a condensed account.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJwb0ad6pxc&feature=relmfu


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 28, 2012)

Yeah the Wise lecture was awesome, I can say I've had a large bunch of that stuff done to me personally, I could give examples but it would take too long and I'm too inebriated at the moment anyways


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## bhakan (Apr 28, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> the campaigns to promote diversity (i.e., our differences, rather than commonalities). It's counter-intuitive, wouldn't you agree?


+1 
Why does every minority strive emphasize their differences, yet get offended when treated differently? Historically, many minorities have been less educated, so many seem to want to honor their culture by talking as if they don't know how to properly conjugate verbs (for example using "be" as opposed to "is"), but by doing so they only perpetuate the stereotypes. If you want to be equal, stop stressing that you're different and the racism should eventually melt away.


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## flint757 (Apr 28, 2012)

bhakan said:


> +1
> Why does every minority strive emphasize their differences, yet get offended when treated differently? Historically, many minorities have been less educated, so many seem to want to honor their culture by talking as if they don't know how to properly conjugate verbs (for example using "be" as opposed to "is"), but by doing so they only perpetuate the stereotypes. If you want to be equal, stop stressing that you're different and the racism should eventually melt away.



Because there is a direct correlation in society today that acting a particular way is associated with a particular race and speaking properly are considered "white" behavior which makes little since to me since I'm sure other nations speak semi proper and not all nations are predominantly white, I'd say most aren't.


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## Blind Theory (Apr 28, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> It sucks that we humans seem to have that instinct of herding with those who are most like ourselves.
> Sounds kind of childish when thinking about it.



It isn't childish. It is human and animal nature. We naturally want to breed with things like us so that things like us will continue living. It happens in the animal kingdom daily. The only difference here is that we can talk and say racist things. Take race out of it and it is nature doing what nature does.


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## rectifryer (Apr 28, 2012)

IN THE YEAR 2000, humans will have artificially created a race everyone can hate equally.


AWWW JEEEZUS SAWS ITS POST 666!!!!


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## Odinvader (Apr 28, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Because there is a direct correlation in society today that acting a particular way is associated with a particular race and speaking properly are considered "white" behavior .



By whom? Last time I checked, Blacks call other Blacks "Uncle Tom" for simply enjoying school. How about the media they consume that perpetuates a love for "gangsta" (never mind that "gangsters" were totally different people in every way) lifestyles? Asians score more highly on IQ tests--both tests adjusted for nationality and not--and they hold more money per household than Whites. Money and education go hand in hand. Asians are therefore, from an academic standpoint, deemed more successful than Blacks. 

Also, acting a particular way IS sometimes associated with a particular race. Blacks, for example, wear and tend to their hair a different way than Asians and Whites do. Why? They are different in that respect. That is no "societal construct". It's reality.



bhakan said:


> +1
> Why does every minority strive emphasize their differences, yet get offended when treated differently? Historically, many minorities have been less educated, so many seem to want to honor their culture by talking as if they don't know how to properly conjugate verbs (for example using "be" as opposed to "is"), but by doing so they only perpetuate the stereotypes. If you want to be equal, stop stressing that you're different and the racism should eventually melt away.



Agreed. If America wants different groups to band together, it must promote the ideology of accepting our differences while strongly supporting that which we all have in common: Seeking education, compassion, and other obvious things. Instead, we often spend time telling different groups what to do and spend too much time with labels. We don't treat Americans as one population, while at the same time calling for "harmony". It's ludicrous. Not to mention, people like to separate the population into two categories:

1) The majority (Euro-Americans)
2) The minority (Non-Euro-Americans, including Caucasians like Iranians, for example)

The implications of this categorization are many and also detrimental to the cause. Additionally, the media absolutely loves to fan the flames. Take for instance, the Zimmerman ordeal. The media continuously called him, "White", as to blow the case up into a racially-based attack, when we have yet to get the final decisions by the court(s). He isn't "White". He is a mixture of Hispanic and non-Mestizo European blood. "Zimmerman" is a German surname inherited by his father. That is only half the story. Count on the media to turn this into an inflamed, "OMG RACIST WHITE ON BLACK CRIME" case without looking at all the facts.



TRENCHLORD said:


> It sucks that we humans seem to have that instinct of herding with those who are most like ourselves.
> Sounds kind of childish when thinking about it.



Humans are naturally prone to caring for their family first, their ethnic (read: not racial) group second, and last, everyone else. Cosmopolitanism is childish, because it will never work. It's like how Christians want to re-program people to love the world, hate certain media outlets that are naturally attractive, share the love, and at the same time, support Israel at the possible expense of their own safety, because Jews are "God's chosen people". Guilt is imposed on those Christians who dissent. 

You can't re-hardwire humans. However, you can use what proclivities humans have to live moral lives. I am in no favor of primitivism, nor am I in favor of cosmopolitanism.



Stealthdjentstic said:


> If you think institutionalized racism doesn't exist then you're really naive.



I didn't deny racism itself. I am against the tactics used by this website et al.
Please re-read.



CapinCripes said:


> read critical race theory.



I'll look into this.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 28, 2012)

Well they do have a point, if you're complacent then you're obviously supporting the status quo.


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## pink freud (Apr 28, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Well they do have a point, if you're complacent then you're obviously supporting the status quo.



That's not true.

As an individual you can treat people equally, regardless of gender, race, sexuality or personal faith (last one is a bit subjective, I admit).

And as a group the most effective counter to racial inequality is to teach equality to the younger generations and simply wait for the older ones to die off. Societal change is never quick, precisely because the longer a person exists with a belief the less likely they are to abandon it. It's easier to wait for these people to die, and to teach their children differently, than it is to change them.

Society doesn't exist in a static state. It is always changing, person by person.

This is also why I consider homosexual marriage a foregone conclusion. Every generation is more accepting of sexual differences than the last. It's merely a waiting game at this point.


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## Odinvader (Apr 28, 2012)

pink freud said:


> That's not true.
> 
> As an individual you can treat people equally, regardless of gender, race, sexuality or personal faith (last one is a bit subjective, I admit).
> 
> ...




You make some great points. I have noticed that my peers are far more accepting of homosexual and interracial relations than the previous generations.


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## Demiurge (Apr 28, 2012)

It seems like a completely reasonable proposition is being attached to a very ugly and counterproductive proposition, and both are being treated as equally valiant.

There's not going to be a dispute over racism being a bad thing, and that it needs to be understood that it hasn't been close to being overcome, leaving a responsibility to identify and challenge racism when it is presented to us. Great, wonderful. 

It seems, though, that additionally there's an attempt to expand the definition of racism to essentially justify accusing white people who are not racist of racism by proxy. On top of that, the logic behind it seems to be the same logic that creates a racist line of thought: take a sample of the population with similar characteristics and designate them as a strictly-defined group, act as if this group has identical traits and values, claim this group acts with a singular agency and are accountable for the actions of everyone in this group, accuse this group of some far-reaching wrongdoing or a propensity for wrongdoing, and then leave it up to the imagination of those being preached-to as to what needs to be done about this group and its menace. 

I'm not sure how attempting to bring resentment and prejudice full-circle is going to fix anything. Certainly, there's a lot that needs to be fixed, but I don't think that believing that things can be undone (because they can't) is a healthy place to start.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 29, 2012)

pink freud said:


> That's not true.
> 
> As an individual you can treat people equally, regardless of gender, race, sexuality or personal faith (last one is a bit subjective, I admit).
> 
> ...



Yes, this is great if you're white and don't have to put up with bullshit on a frequent basis.

But hey who cares, we can just wait it out right?


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## Odinvader (Apr 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Yes, this is great if you're white and don't have to put up with bullshit on a frequent basis.



Whites can be mocked and bullied just as easily for being homosexual, short, or crippled. Being White doesn't make you exempt from hate. 

Are you non-White? If so, what do you go through on a daily basis? If not, what friends or acquaintances do you see going through racism on a daily basis?


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## McKay (Apr 29, 2012)

I wonder if Han privilege exists.

It's not the message but the creepy air of self loathing that puts me off a lot of people that get really invested in this. Also on the off chance that Time Wise ever reads this:
*
CORRELATION != CAUSATION*


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## Church2224 (Apr 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> Whites can be mocked and bullied just as easily for being homosexual, short, or crippled. Being White doesn't make you exempt from hate.



They can also be just as mocked for just being white, or for the vehicle they drive, or the music they listen to, or pretty much anything that is different than us. Anyone can be made fun of for being who they are no matter what it is, racism is just one of the bigger, more well known issues. 

People will always find ways to hate others for whatever reason they seem fit, it is in our nature. We find people we have something in common with, stick by them and stand our ground against other groups so that we can feel better about ourselves. In all honesty the first way to stop racism, or any type of hatred, is to first look inside ourselves and be comfortable with who we are and learn to understand others, then we begin to accept others for who they are. 

But there will always be hate, inequality, ect. amongst the human race. To think that will all be gone one day may be a good idea in theory, but in reality it is just not going to happen, as much as any of us hate to admit it.

Also just to say that white people are not discriminated against, I am sorry but I am white and I have been discriminated against many different times in my work place and have noticed it in many different areas of my work. Sucks? Yeah. But PLEASE don't sit there and say white people don't "know what it is like." Trust me, some of us do.


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## flint757 (Apr 29, 2012)

Minorities (classified by schools) are offered scholarships even if their families are well off. Women in the engineering field for instance or the many group based minority scholarships existing on most school campuses. In that regard being white is totally not in my favor.

Just food for thought, not really making a stand or point here.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 29, 2012)

Mmm Canada doesnt really use affirmative action anyways, I know its really popular in the US but schools here ignore colour unless you're FN.

Im not too big a fan of affirmative action anyways because of the whole glass ceiling effect.


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## flint757 (Apr 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Mmm Canada doesnt really use affirmative action anyways, I know its really popular in the US but schools here ignore colour unless you're FN.
> 
> Im not too big a fan of affirmative action anyways because of the whole glass ceiling effect.



Affirmative action is slowly turning into a grades based system(top of class) so that races will be mixed, but aren't part of the equation.

Scholarships though are usually privately funded so that discrimination is really only in the fact that if someone made a white only scholarship people would be pissed. In a way I understand why, because in terms of history as a culture we were never oppressed (it least in a recent sense). Whereas other races were. Actually no that isn't true because there are asian and hispanic scholarships and they were never oppressed (discriminated against yes, but not oppressed) whereas women and black people were. So I can understand the mentality to be against it, but it is private funding so at the same time it isn't their fucking business either just like it isn't mine.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 29, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> Whites can be mocked and bullied just as easily for being homosexual, short, or crippled. Being White doesn't make you exempt from hate.
> 
> Are you non-White? If so, what do you go through on a daily basis? If not, what friends or acquaintances do you see going through racism on a daily basis?



Here's some of the stuff I can remember in my inebriated saturday night state (lol):


-Stopped because the cop thought I was a drug dealer while driving a Range Rover, because drug dealers can afford Range Rovers, especially when really young.

-Told, "I thought you were like those other brown people in the news that beat their wife and stuff, you know?!" by some lady at a textbook buy back thing, because my cousin was holding my textbooks for me (I have spinal stenosis and degenerative disc disease)

-Stopped because a cop thought I had a bomb or something in my guitar case. Even thought it was a tiny cheapo fender gig bag one.

That's just some of it too, all from the month of April.


But that's not really even what affects me, what does affect is the super biased and obviously racist reporting by several newspapers, TV's, etc.. that paint Sikhs as extremists on a frequent basis.


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## Waelstrum (Apr 29, 2012)

There is certainly a white privilege in Australia. For example, the average life expectancy of indigenous people ranges between five and fifteen years less than the average for everyone else. There are also a myriad of statistics regarding education, alcoholism, poverty, etc... I guess this isn't so much a white privilege as an indigenous disadvantage, resulting from oppression at the level slavery recent enough that it affected people who are still alive. A large part of the problem is that we don't get taught this stuff in schools, and I only know because my parents are friends with people from the stolen generation (which is not the worst thing that was done). Because so many people don't know what happened (and how recent it was) it becomes easier to ignore all the depressing statistics.


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## Edika (Apr 29, 2012)

Interesting conversation and it would be more beneficial if more people of "color" that have actually felt discrimination could share their opinions and experiences. I mostly agree with Pink Freud but would like to add that the fact most younger people are open to other races and sexual orientations is not only because we were taught differently but because there were a lot of social struggles and sacrifices (especially from the Afro-Americans) in order for us to be debating now the existence of racism or not. Homosexual couples are making a social struggle for acceptance but at least the reaction from the other citizens and your government is not as violent and rejective as it was 50-60 years ago.

As much as I am for people celebrating their similarities and finding common grounds we should also celebrate our differences as cultures and find ways to co-exist and tolerate each other. As a white (more like Mediterranean white kind of darker colored hair and skin) I have not felt discriminated against on a racial basis so I can't imagine how it would feel being judged just by the color of your skin. Sometimes I have even felt myself discriminating against people and becoming a bit racist and I consider myself unbiased or at least tolerant to other peoples differences and origins.

So for people that feel that are not racist imagine being transported and having to leave in a so called ghetto neighborhood. Would you feel at ease with your surroundings or will all the stereotypes get to your head and panic. Of course I know some neighborhoods are dangerous but I am just saying to imagine this mental picture. Do you accept Afro-Americans and Hispanics incorporated in your view of reality or their own? Would you take steps to get them closer to you and celebrate your similarities or do you accept them to do all the effort and be incorporated in your way of life?

Discrimination is something that exists in all societies and has a racist note to it even for people of the same color. Just think of the way higher economical classes consider the middle and lower economical classes and so forth.


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## pink freud (Apr 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Yes, this is great if you're white and don't have to put up with bullshit on a frequent basis.
> 
> But hey who cares, we can just wait it out right?



What else _can_ you do, on an individual basis? You can't force people to not be assholes.


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## bhakan (Apr 29, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Here's some of the stuff I can remember in my inebriated saturday night state (lol):
> 
> 
> -Stopped because the cop thought I was a drug dealer while driving a Range Rover, because drug dealers can afford Range Rovers, especially when really young.
> ...


While that does suck, and what those people do is in no way condoned, similar things happen in every type of discrimination. While driving, I've been pulled over for stupid things, cause I'm a younger guy driving a muscle car, a lot of people suspect that I do drugs because I'm a metal head, and while in Europe, I was given coke at basically every meal, because everyone assumed "oh, he's American, he must drink only soda." Obviously yours are much worse, but everyone will get some sort of impression from your appearance, and as long as they are just initial opinions, and can be changed once they get to know you, it's a necessary part of life. It seems to me that in modern times racism is sort of blown out proportion (but I'm white, so I may be completely ignorant to a lot of what goes on).


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## flint757 (Apr 29, 2012)

Edika said:


> Interesting conversation and it would be more beneficial if more people of "color" that have actually felt discrimination could share their opinions and experiences. I mostly agree with Pink Freud but would like to add that the fact most younger people are open to other races and sexual orientations is not only because we were taught differently but because there were a lot of social struggles and sacrifices (especially from the Afro-Americans) in order for us to be debating now the existence of racism or not. Homosexual couples are making a social struggle for acceptance but at least the reaction from the other citizens and your government is not as violent and rejective as it was 50-60 years ago.
> 
> As much as I am for people celebrating their similarities and finding common grounds we should also celebrate our differences as cultures and find ways to co-exist and tolerate each other. As a white (more like Mediterranean white kind of darker colored hair and skin) I have not felt discriminated against on a racial basis so I can't imagine how it would feel being judged just by the color of your skin. Sometimes I have even felt myself discriminating against people and becoming a bit racist and I consider myself unbiased or at least tolerant to other peoples differences and origins.
> 
> ...



I have lived in inner city poorer areas and some minorities (obviously not all) go out of there way to harass white people. Why? I don't know because it makes them feel cool or because they think if your white you have money? I honestly don't know, but I see it all the time and I've been the grunt of it on a few occasions. Having said that it is the poverty factor not the color factor that makes people act that way. When your poor you get desperate and if you get desperate enough you'll steal. White people are stereotyped to being better off by most so in the eyes of someone in the ghetto you look like an easy target. This my experience, but it isn't always like this and I've also met some wonderful people.



bhakan said:


> While that does suck, and what those people do is in no way condoned, similar things happen in every type of discrimination. While driving, I've been pulled over for stupid things, cause I'm a younger guy driving a muscle car, a lot of people suspect that I do drugs because I'm a metal head, and while in Europe, I was given coke at basically every meal, because everyone assumed "oh, he's American, he must drink only soda." Obviously yours are much worse, but everyone will get some sort of impression from your appearance, and as long as they are just initial opinions, and can be changed once they get to know you, it's a necessary part of life. It seems to me that in modern times racism is sort of blown out proportion (but I'm white, so I may be completely ignorant to a lot of what goes on).



Exactly everyone is discriminated against on some level. And I also agree that once you get to know someone it is pretty easy to remove those inclinations. For me I could see someone, have my initial impression (usually based on clothes), but when I talk to them it is rarely a correlation to their personality. For me it is easy to get passed that initial impression.


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## Powermetalbass (Apr 29, 2012)

The solution to racism is to wait it out. Eventually the entire race will be one race/one colour. You won't be able to tell who comes from white, black, green, yellow or purple people. Give it time. Till then racism will exist and minorities will complain about the priveleged white class, while white people will complain about too many rights are given to minorities. I've heard all of this before. You want a solution.....be you! if your racist then be racist, if your an equalist....be an equalist, if your a civil rights activist....be a civil rights activist. Of those 3 people none will change anyone elses mind, but you are free to try!


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## Jakke (Apr 29, 2012)

The simple answer is really that people are racist dicks, here in Sweden in predominately immigrant neighbourhoods white people will get harrassed, while immigrant kids gets harrassed if they would run into some white with supremacist ideas (the mainstream swede is too afraid to be called a racist to even dare looking at an immigrant). No people is free of racism (read people, not individuals), just see what happens in Uganda, the black majority is basically enforcing state mandated racism against the whites. 
The conclusion? People in general are not as fond of people of different colour as they are of their own, fuck, even horses are terrible racists.

Flagellating oneself for being white is not a solution either, people cannot choose to be white more than they can choose to be whatever other colour. The collective guilt that PC outlets has been wanting to put on mostly white americans will only breed hatred, sure, they must of course understand that shit went down before, do whatever is right (I am not sure though if pumping money into black neighbourhoods or affirmative action is the right thing to do) of course. Damn, some people are willing to sling whatever mud possible at someone white in the hopes that something will stick, I have personally (me, as an ethnic scandinavian, my family has lived here since the beginning of time basically) been held accountable for slavery in the US, and if the person would have been allowed to continue her hizzy fit, I'd probably have been responsible for the holocaust and the JFK assassination as well.
That is really the danger in talking about "white privileges" or that we all benefited from some sort of slavery. The last slavery I benefited from was a thousand years ago, and those slaves where white. There are white people on so many places in the world, so stereotyping us all as racists, or that we silently approve of racism is dishonest (a flat out lie even) and frankly quite racist.


"If you are not with me, you are against me" has never worked, and does not do it here either.


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## flint757 (Apr 29, 2012)

My family is from Poland and Germany and moved to the states around 1905 or so. By doing so they avoided being involved with the horrors of WW1 and WW2 and were here after slavery (but obviously not before the discrimination ended). So technically my family, specifically, had nothing to do with either, but it doesn't stop people from claiming so.


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## groph (Apr 30, 2012)

Powermetalbass said:


> The solution to racism is to wait it out. *Eventually the entire race will be one race/one colour*. You won't be able to tell who comes from white, black, green, yellow or purple people. Give it time. Till then racism will exist and *minorities will complain about the priveleged white class*, while *white people will complain about too many rights are given to minorities*. I've heard all of this before. *You want a solution.....be you! if your racist then be racist*, if your an equalist....be an equalist, if your a civil rights activist....be a civil rights activist. Of those 3 people none will change anyone elses mind, but you are free to try!



..What?


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## flint757 (Apr 30, 2012)

Not sure, but it sounds like he is saying everyone complains, everyone has their opinions and nobody cares basically.

There is some truth to the eventual degradation of color differences, but not anytime soon and even with mixing races it is possible for one to completely over power the other leading to little change from one generation to the next. It isn't like our skin is a canvas and everything sticks to white. (genetically it kind of does, but it doesn't have too).


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't know how much I buy into the whole everyone being the same mixed skin tone at some point in the future thing. Even if racism ever actually disappears, there are other factors that will play into who porks who, like geographic isolation (not a lot of whiteys running around in the remote forests of Papua New Guinea) and, let's face it, sexual preference. 

I support racial equality 100% and consider racial segregation, oppression and mistreatment to be archaic and offensive at best, but I'm just rarely ever attracted to black chicks and I have a major hardon for Asians. I'd hire a black person, I'd be happy for my child if he or she were to fall in love with and marry one, they just very, very rarely ever do anything for me personally.

I have often wondered if that counts as some sort of racism (I imagine some people probably think so), or if it's essentially the same thing is not digging brunettes.


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## flint757 (Apr 30, 2012)

^^I'm the same way, but if I came across one that I liked I'd date her. I feel the same way about red heads, but I could be convinced otherwise if one happened to peak my interest.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 30, 2012)

bhakan said:


> While that does suck, and what those people do is in no way condoned, similar things happen in every type of discrimination. While driving, I've been pulled over for stupid things, cause I'm a younger guy driving a muscle car, a lot of people suspect that I do drugs because I'm a metal head, and while in Europe, I was given coke at basically every meal, because everyone assumed "oh, he's American, he must drink only soda." Obviously yours are much worse, but everyone will get some sort of impression from your appearance, and as long as they are just initial opinions, and can be changed once they get to know you, it's a necessary part of life. It seems to me that in modern times racism is sort of blown out proportion (but I'm white, so I may be completely ignorant to a lot of what goes on).




I wouldn't say they're blown out of proportion at all; you have a point too, you really can't say if racism is blown out of proportion at all because you haven't really experienced it first hand. Overt racism doesn't really bother me because people like yourself, can recognize it and say, "hey fuck that guy". But where real problems start is when the media and other groups succeed in painting a certain group as absolutely psychotic goat raping maiancs. Statistics speak for themselves, why are so many more black youth in jail than others? I would really recommend watching that video linked in the second post, it's kind of long but really touches on some good points.


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## Odinvader (Apr 30, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Damn, some people are willing to sling whatever mud possible at someone white in the hopes that something will stick, I have personally (me, as an ethnic scandinavian, my family has lived here since the beginning of time basically) been held accountable for slavery in the US, and if the person would have been allowed to continue her hizzy fit, I'd probably have been responsible for the holocaust and the JFK assassination as well.
> That is really the danger in talking about "white privileges" or that we all benefited from some sort of slavery.
> 
> ...
> ...



Your whole post rules, but this is especially shrewd. Being English (Anglo-Saxon + Anglo-Norman) and Swedish, ethnically, I totally get what that is like. However, I maintain a hopeful outlook. Namely, I wish to educate my contemporaries better than their parents were educated. Personally, I don't like how my country has turned out, and its mostly the fault of the generations before me. 




Grand Moff Tim said:


> I have often wondered if that counts as some sort of racism (I imagine some people probably think so), or if it's essentially the same thing is not digging brunettes.




It's not racism. It's preference.
I have never been attracted to a Black woman, nor have I been attracted to a woman of Middle Eastern descent. I don't hate them; it's just who I am. You don't control what gets your dick up. Same for sexual orientation.


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## Deadnightshade (Apr 30, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I support racial equality 100% and consider racial segregation, oppression and mistreatment to be archaic and offensive at best, but I'm just rarely ever attracted to black chicks and I have a major hardon for Asians. I'd hire a black person, I'd be happy for my child if he or she were to fall in love with and marry one, they just very, very rarely ever do anything for me personally.
> 
> I have often wondered if that counts as some sort of racism (I imagine some people probably think so), or if it's essentially the same thing is not digging brunettes.




What i learnt from school:
Racism is the illusion that one may have that his race (and others) are superior to other races.




If a black chicks hits on you and you don't want to her,you're just not interested.End of story.As long as you don't think she's inferior,if she calls you a racist then she's wrong.

Most likely you're discriminating against fatties for example way more than just a black woman that doesn't attract you.


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## Jakke (Apr 30, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> Your whole post rules.



Thank you good sir



Odinvader said:


> However, I maintain a hopeful outlook. Namely, I wish to educate my contemporaries better than their parents were educated. Personally, I don't like how my country has turned out, and its mostly the fault of the generations before me.



Yeah, things get better and better. There is no way to get racist assholes to think differently, they either must come to a new conclusion themselves, or we wait until they die off.

But, things do get better, even if it way not go as fast as desired occasionally.



Odinvader said:


> It's not racism. It's preference.
> I have never been attracted to a Black woman, nor have I been attracted to a woman of Middle Eastern descent. I don't hate them; it's just who I am. You don't control what gets your dick up. Same for sexual orientation.



I seem to remember that this is rooted in biology somewhere. It's hard to find unbiased information, as this is often used by white/black/something supremacists to justify racial segregation. From what I recall though, humans are more probable to find people of the same ethnic group attractive.


Also, *swedish fist-bump*


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## renzoip (Apr 30, 2012)

Jakke said:


> I seem to remember that this is rooted in biology somewhere. It's hard to find unbiased information, as this is often used by white/black/something supremacists to justify racial segregation. From what I recall though, humans are more probable to find people of the same ethnic group attractive.




Regarding attraction, I can understand why someone would find a person of his own group more attractive, but I'm not sure it may have to do with looks necessarily. I, for one, think that it has more to do with speaking the same native language, sharing common customs, common history/popular culture, social class, and the like. Looks are certainly important, but I highly doubt that's what makes people attracted to their own ethnic group. There are lots of people out there that prefer dating outside their groups; I think there are many more levels of affinity, other than looks, language, and nationality, that would facilitate this.


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## synrgy (Apr 30, 2012)

My humble opinion, regarding attraction:

It's not racist to say "I find that person to be physically unattractive".

It's kind of racist to say "I find that person's entire race to be physically unattractive", because there's no way you can make that call without having met everyone else alive who's a part of their race.

In other words, one should _always_ choose their words very carefully. 

*edit* Also, do The White People!


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## Varcolac (Apr 30, 2012)

synrgy said:


> *edit* Also, do The White People!
> 
> http://chzmusic.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/music-fails-do-the-white-people-dance.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Jakke (Apr 30, 2012)

synrgy said:


> http://chzmusic.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/music-fails-do-the-white-people-dance.gif[/IMG]



You.... *RACIST*!




Those are some terrible dancers


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 1, 2012)

synrgy said:


> It's kind of racist to say "I find that person's entire race to be physically unattractive", because there's no way you can make that call without having met everyone else alive who's a part of their race.
> 
> In other words, one should _always_ choose their words very carefully.


 
Yeah, that's why I add that black women very, very rarely do anything for me. I've seen a few that I'd nail, they're just extremely few and far between. I'd never go so far as to say _all_ black people are unattractive (or _all_ korean chicks are mad, mad hot) because the odds would be against me, but I'm still pretty comfortable saying "I don't go for black chicks." I don't feel racist when I say it, but I suppose I can see how some might take it that way.


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## Baelzebeard (May 1, 2012)

I try not to post much in possible inflammatory topics, but... here goes.

Commence ramble

#1: Racism is totally fucked, and I feel sorry for all the discrimination people have suffered. I think the majority of people, (especially the awesome people here at SS.O) would agree that as a race, (humans) we would be better served without racist activities.

I consider myself non racist, and I have never had a problem interacting with individual people of any ethnic group. My son's best pal at school is a black kid, and I consider it a non issue for him to stay over at his friends place, because I know he's a good kid, and his parents are good people.

That being said I grew up in a very rural town with a basically all white population,(we had one black kid, and one asian kid in my high school). In a demographic like this, there isn't much racism, but there is still plenty of discrimination. As said before it comes down to insecure people wanting to band together and lash out at people that are different. In my experience the group discriminated against was frequently my social circle.
Apparently having long hair and wearing slayer t-shirts meant that I was clearly a "stoner" and a "fag", and justified all sorts of wonderful verbal and physical assaults. So I do understand discrimination.

To me the concept of "white privilege" is very devisive and it,(and things like it) will never do anything to bring people together, it will just drive the wedge further between the groups in question. I have never experienced "white privelege". I have never competed with a minority for a job, or any other such thing. I have never been given a damn thing for being white, I've had to work my ass off for everything in my life, and I have not been stepping on the backs of minorities to get where I am, and neither had my parents or their parents. (Hell, my grandma grew up on the indian reservation(1/2 native)).

We will probably never be rid of racism completely. The only person you can truly control is yourself. The best we can do is, as individuals, is to do our best not to judge people indiscriminately, and to try to teach our children the same. I was lucky enough to grow up with a very awesome family, that always put character first.

Mindless ramble over.


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## Powermetalbass (May 2, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> Racial Equity Tools :: Essential Concepts and Issues :: Concepts :: White Privilege
> 
> 
> 
> ...



your title by quoting people as "whites" and accusing them of being racist because they are white is racist!


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## TemjinStrife (May 4, 2012)

bhakan said:


> While that does suck, and what those people do is in no way condoned, similar things happen in every type of discrimination. While driving, I've been pulled over for stupid things, cause I'm a younger guy driving a muscle car, a lot of people suspect that I do drugs because I'm a metal head, and while in Europe, I was given coke at basically every meal, because everyone assumed "oh, he's American, he must drink only soda." Obviously yours are much worse, but everyone will get some sort of impression from your appearance, and as long as they are just initial opinions, and can be changed once they get to know you, it's a necessary part of life. It seems to me that in modern times racism is sort of blown out proportion (but I'm white, so I may be completely ignorant to a lot of what goes on).



Dude. There's a complete difference between being "discriminated against" for your lifestyle choices in relatively harmless ways, and being "discriminated against" for simply being born a certain color, or something similarly beyond your control. A HUGE difference. 

You're a white kid in a country where public perceptions and monetary distributions are pretty heavily skewed toward whites. That's really different from being a black kid in that same country, and I'm going to posit that you REALLY don't understand what it feels like. 

Hell, I really don't have the ability understand it either. I'm a white upper-middle-class guy from New England, and I have not experienced the sort of institutionalized negativity that, say, my black buddy Aaron has. Aaron lives right down the street from me in the East Village in New York, and has been followed and harassed several times on his way home. I've never even had someone look at me wrong.


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## Stealthdjentstic (May 4, 2012)

Thank you Josh <3


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## TRENCHLORD (May 5, 2012)

This sucks as well. 
Reporters Beaten by Mob of Blacks and Their Newspaper Stayed Silent | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes


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## flint757 (May 5, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> This sucks as well.
> Reporters Beaten by Mob of Blacks and Their Newspaper Stayed Silent | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes



The police made poor judgement on this, but the newspaper made the right decision. I'm sick people on all sides crying hate crime personally, why does intent make a crime worse. Regular assault should be at the same level legally as hate crime assault, same with murder, theft, etc.. No matter if it is race or not someone had ill intent. For instance if kids of the same color were beating someone up someone of the same color just for kicks, it isn't classified as a hate crime (seems only when it is racial) and yet, to me it least, there isn't one that is better than the other. I say get rid of the label and increase the punishment across the board for assholes who commit these crimes.


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## Waelstrum (May 5, 2012)

^ I disagree, in that I think the motive should be a factor in determining the sentence. (I think that hate crime legislation can be subject to abuse, when it comes to determining what someone is thinking versus what people want them to have been thinking so that a harsher sentence may be dealt upon them, but that's a different issue.) There is a spectrum of the same crime that should be taken into account. Take for example, a close range gunshot to the chest resulting in death, that's murder, right? However, the circumstances change how wrong that action is. For example, if the shooter was defending themselves from imminent danger, then it's self defence, and they go free. If the shooter was a battered wife that was in no immediate danger, that is taken into consideration. She's still guilty, but has a softer sentence than normal (and probably faces a lower charge than murder). If the shooter did it in order to steal from the victim, that's murder, and is to be treated as such. If the shooter did it simply because of the victims race, that's a heinous act; throw the book at them. I realise that some might not see that big a difference between the last two (and some might also not see that big a difference between the first two) but that is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is the same action (shooting someone to death) is different in different circumstances, and should be treated as such. There are many shades of grey, as opposed to just black and white.


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## flint757 (May 5, 2012)

I'm not saying get rid of the grey area, I'm saying the difference between doing it for fun in a racial way versus not is one in the same. I agree that circumstance matter, but really only to determine why someone acted the way they did. So if for defense yes I agree there should be different charges than for an outright murder, but like you said I see little difference between the last 2 you mentioned. I think "hate crime" creates unnecessary grey area.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 5, 2012)

flint757 said:


> The police made poor judgement on this, but the newspaper made the right decision. I'm sick people on all sides crying hate crime personally, why does intent make a crime worse. Regular assault should be at the same level legally as hate crime assault, same with murder, theft, etc.. No matter if it is race or not someone had ill intent. For instance if kids of the same color were beating someone up someone of the same color just for kicks, it isn't classified as a hate crime (seems only when it is racial) and yet, to me it least, there isn't one that is better than the other. I say get rid of the label and increase the punishment across the board for assholes who commit these crimes.


 
I'm with you on the hate crime ideocracy,
but doesn't a newspaper have the civic duty to report on any random gang assult, or even if the reporter provoked the whole thing and there was a fight resulting in an investigation?

It's a public safety issue anytime there's a random type attack or altercation. 
Our local news papers and news channels report anything of that sort and much more actually. They even have the "siren report" that details what the coppers done so far as complaint calls.


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## flint757 (May 5, 2012)

Yeah my school sends emails out when a crime occurs. Yeah they should have mentioned it, but an outright story would have been inappropriate without all the facts. 

Does that newspaper normally report crimes though? According to the article they only report specific crime based on police reports alone which would explain there inaction as well. I find it hard to believe the paper was racially driven either way.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 5, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Yeah my school sends emails out when a crime occurs. Yeah they should have mentioned it, but an outright story would have been inappropriate without all the facts.
> 
> Does that newspaper normally report crimes though? According to the article they only report specific crime based on police reports alone which would explain there inaction as well. I find it hard to believe the paper was racially driven either way.


 
I see your point about not pretending they know the scoop when they clearly don't.
Also the facts are still being investigated, but that doesn't explain the non-mention of the incident. 
There will be much more come out on this in the next few days/weeks, so maybe they''ll get to the bottom of things.


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## BrianUV777BK (May 5, 2012)

I have a white guitar. I have a black guitar. I love them both.


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## Jakke (May 5, 2012)

I actually only have one black, one brown, and one red... Am I a racist?!?!?!


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## flint757 (May 5, 2012)

What does tobacco burst qualify as?


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## Jakke (May 5, 2012)

Mulatto?


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## Demiurge (May 5, 2012)

Maple and mahogany... together we make metal.


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## The Reverend (May 5, 2012)

Odinvader said:


> Whites can be mocked and bullied just as easily for being homosexual, short, or crippled. Being White doesn't make you exempt from hate.
> 
> Are you non-White? If so, what do you go through on a daily basis? If not, what friends or acquaintances do you see going through racism on a daily basis?



The point is that certain stereotypes are institutionalized, and that white people perpetuate them unconsciously. Make a list of purely white stereotypes and compare that to any other racial group's and you'll see the difference. I'm black, and have lived in Texas for the past ten years. I don't think you want me to tell you about racism on a daily basis, friend. 



flint757 said:


> Minorities (classified by schools) are offered scholarships even if their families are well off. Women in the engineering field for instance or the many group based minority scholarships existing on most school campuses. In that regard being white is totally not in my favor.
> 
> Just food for thought, not really making a stand or point here.



I see your point, but I'm not sure it's totally correct. White privilege means that while I may have the advantage of minority scholarships, the *norm* is that you'll statistically have a better chance at all the other ones.



bhakan said:


> It seems to me that in modern times racism is sort of blown out proportion (but I'm white, so I may be completely ignorant to a lot of what goes on).



Did you watch that Tim Wise video? If his statistics are believed, in the '60s, white people didn't view racism as a problem. And again in the '30s. The 1890s. He even quoted some doctor from the 1850s who posited that slaves who ran away from the plantation had to be *mentally insane*, because plantation life was so great. If you're white, middle-class, and don't live in the ghetto, you are in no position to say racism is not a big deal.



TemjinStrife said:


> You're a white kid in a country where public perceptions and monetary distributions are pretty heavily skewed toward whites. That's really different from being a black kid in that same country, and I'm going to posit that you REALLY don't understand what it feels like.
> 
> Hell, I really don't have the ability understand it either. I'm a white upper-middle-class guy from New England, and I have not experienced the sort of institutionalized negativity that, say, my black buddy Aaron has. Aaron lives right down the street from me in the East Village in New York, and has been followed and harassed several times on his way home. I've never even had someone look at me wrong.



I'm not sure you guys get what it's like to be black. At least you admit it, TemjinStrife. Here's my reality: I'm incredibly smart, and talk "white". I'm a college student (who didn't get any race-based scholarships, though I applied). I don't do drugs. I drink occasionally, but I don't drive. I have a job, and I play guitar in a metal band. 

If I walk in to a job interview, I have to hope the person interviewing me doesn't have a negative view of blacks, because then I'll have to *overcome previous stereotypes of my race*. The worst part is when people try to compliment me for speaking like an 'educated' person. What they mean is *white*. I can use big words while speaking with a ghetto accent, but that wouldn't impress anybody, would it? In fact, because I don't align with a lot of black stereotypes, *people in my personal life often use me to explain why there's a difference between 'black' people and 'niggers'.* Because I'm not out there smoking crack or getting drunk, I'm not a ....... I wish the strangers who've called me that in the past knew about that. 

If I get arrested, I have to worry about what people will see me as. Not a college student who got drunk and fucked up, but a black criminal. No, it won't be everyone thinking that, but it will be a majority of every race. If I'm driving a nice car, odds are that I will be pulled over more often than white people, *even though whites statistically have drugs on them more often when pulled over*. God forbid I have anything suspicious in my car, either. 

I hate these threads about race. Some white guy pops in, "Hey, I've totally been harassed by blacks or other minorities!" I know dude, and it sucks. But you don't have an entire race's worth of stereotypes to overcome on a daily basis. Then some secretive guy who's a little too down with stormfront.org comes on and says, "Let's celebrate our differences!" Look, fool, if we're both working class people, in the same city, who's ancestors have been here for generations, what the fuck differences do we really have, come on. Then some minority comes on and is over-conciliatory, saying that racism is indeed a non-issue and that it's wrong to talk about it.


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## Jakke (May 5, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> The point is that certain stereotypes are institutionalized, and that white people perpetuate them unconsciously. Make a list of purely white stereotypes and compare that to any other racial group's and you'll see the difference. *I'm black, and have lived in Texas for the past ten years*. I don't think you want me to tell you about racism on a daily basis, friend.



Those years must have been quite exciting.


Not good exciting, just... exciting...


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## flint757 (May 5, 2012)

I'll be the first to admit racism is pretty bad in Texas. A good portion of my family is almost insultingly racist at times. People make jokes and think they are funny, but you are right Rev people do seem to believe them to be true when it comes down to it. It is insulting to be who you are and get complimented for something arbitrary just because you don't fit a stereotype. It is similar to what an average intelligent Chinese kid would have to deal with. (bar set really high)


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## bhakan (May 5, 2012)

To preface this, everything in this post and my last post is obviously biased, as I am white and have never experienced racial discrimination myself, as well as my friends and family are generally well educated and tolerant, so I definitely live in an environment where I am not exposed to much racism. I'm just expressing what I've seen from my perspective. I did not mean to imply that I know everything (or even much at all) about the topic. I'm just discussing what I think is an interesting topic. 


TemjinStrife said:


> Dude. There's a complete difference between being "discriminated against" for your lifestyle choices in relatively harmless ways, and being "discriminated against" for simply being born a certain color, or something similarly beyond your control. A HUGE difference.
> 
> You're a white kid in a country where public perceptions and monetary distributions are pretty heavily skewed toward whites. That's really different from being a black kid in that same country, and I'm going to posit that you REALLY don't understand what it feels like.
> 
> Hell, I really don't have the ability understand it either. I'm a white upper-middle-class guy from New England, and I have not experienced the sort of institutionalized negativity that, say, my black buddy Aaron has. Aaron lives right down the street from me in the East Village in New York, and has been followed and harassed several times on his way home. I've never even had someone look at me wrong.


While the examples I used are definitely trivial problems, is discrimination against a lifestyle choice so different from racial discrimination? Obviously in that case I could get out of those stereotypes whenever I want, which makes the situation not as big of deal, but from an ideological standpoint, its just as wrong. Shouldn't we have the right to dress/live how we want without being discriminated against? And like I said in the beginning of this post, i tried to say that I don't understand what it feels like, but worded it poorly. 


The Reverend said:


> Did you watch that Tim Wise video? If his statistics are believed, in the '60s, white people didn't view racism as a problem. And again in the '30s. The 1890s. He even quoted some doctor from the 1850s who posited that slaves who ran away from the plantation had to be *mentally insane*, because plantation life was so great. If you're white, middle-class, and don't live in the ghetto, you are in no position to say racism is not a big deal.


I did not watch the video, so sorry if I'm missing something, but what do these stats relating to the 1960's and prior have to do with my post. When I meant modern times I meant within the last 10-20 years or so. 

To rephrase what I said earlier, as i think my original post conveyed my meaning badly in certain cases, out of people that I personally know (friends/family), almost none of them will discriminate against a person based on skin color any more than any other factor of their appearance. The reason I said I think racism is exaggerated is because in my experience, most of the time racism has been brought up has been when someone said something negative about some minority, and they arbitrarily connected it to racism, when it clearly had nothing to do with race, but the person's character. I think there is bias on both sides, whites (including me) see it as less of a problem than it really is while some minorities may exaggerate the severity. Basically, does it ever occur to you that those talking about how bad racism is have their own share of bias?


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## Stealthdjentstic (May 5, 2012)

Yes, I'm sure being violently assaulted multiple times is bias.


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## bhakan (May 5, 2012)

^Well that's terrible. That's a completely different thing. But you're saying that whites are biased because they aren't experiencing racism, but there is no bias whatsoever in the other side of the story? There's bias in everything, I'm not saying the bias is equal on both sides, but everything has some degree of bias. There's two sides to every story. Violence is one thing, but isn't it possible that some examples of racism really weren't meant to be racist, but taken the wrong way?


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## Stealthdjentstic (May 5, 2012)

Yes I get what you're saying, but if someone calls Rev a fucking ...... then Im pretty sure there's no mistaking that for racism


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## TemjinStrife (May 6, 2012)

To answer your question, discrimination against a lifestyle choice is certainly bad, but not nearly as bad as racism. 

-You chose your lifestyle, and to grow your hair the way that you did. 
-My friend Aaron nor Rev did not choose to be born black, nor Mehtab brown. 

-When someone makes judgments about you based on your lifestyle, they're making judgements about choices that you've made.
-When someone makes judgments against someone based on their race, they're making a negative judgment against that person SOLELY based on an immutable characteristic; something that they cannot change, and something that is an integral part of their self and identity. And they shouldn't have to feel ashamed or disenfranchised or unprotected because of their ethnicity and heritage.

Do you see the difference?

There's a difference between judging someone for a choice they've made, and judging someone categorically because of a core part of their physical and cultural identity.

And racism is not "exaggerated." You just don't see it because, like me, you're a white man in a white man's world.


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## bhakan (May 6, 2012)

I agree with you there, except I think a lifestyle choice can be an integral part of a person's life, such as religion. 

What I meant by exaggerated is that maybe the people who say they experience it on regular basis have a particularly racist part of the picture, while I have a particularly tolerant part of the picture. You need to account for the very racist areas, but also the not so racist areas to get the full picture, which as a whole probably lies somewhere in the middle.


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## highlordmugfug (May 6, 2012)

bhakan said:


> I agree with you there, except I think a lifestyle choice can be an integral part of a person's life, such as religion.
> 
> What I meant by exaggerated is that maybe the people who say they experience it on regular basis have a particularly racist part of the picture, while I have a particularly tolerant part of the picture. You need to account for the very racist areas, but also the not so racist areas to get the full picture, which as a whole probably lies somewhere in the middle.


Criticizing someone's religious beliefs is not even anywhere near the same ballpark as being a racist. That argument could not possibly be more unfounded.

Also, apparently you missed the point.


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## flint757 (May 6, 2012)

The premise here is that you can change the outward things that affect you (cut hair, pretend to be religious, etc.), but you can't change skin color and no matter what anyone does personally or outwardly the initial gut 
instinct of people is reaching to stereotypes based on race that can easily affect ones ability to get a job or many other things that can sadly be affected. That isn't even limited to black or white because I'd imagine it 
affects even Hispanic or Oriental heritage in a negative light, even positive stereotypes can be negative especially if the person doesn't measure up.


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## bhakan (May 6, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Criticizing someone's religious beliefs is not even anywhere near the same ballpark as being a racist. That argument could not possibly be more unfounded.
> 
> Also, apparently you missed the point.


I didn't mean criticizing religion, but religious stereotypes (ie: atheists are bad people, muslims are terrorists, etc.), but I do agree that it probably wasn't the best example. 

What point did I miss?


flint757 said:


> The premise here is that you can change the outward things that affect you (cut hair, pretend to be religious, etc.), but you can't change skin color and no matter what anyone does personally or outwardly the initial gut
> instinct of people is reaching to stereotypes based on race that can easily affect ones ability to get a job or many other things that can sadly be affected. That isn't even limited to black or white because I'd imagine it
> affects even Hispanic or Oriental heritage in a negative light, even positive stereotypes can be negative especially if the person doesn't measure up.


If that's directed at me, I agree with everything said here.


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## flint757 (May 6, 2012)

^^you raise an interesting point bringing Islam into this, but if you think about it most people see someone who is middle eastern and then presume thay are in fact muslim without knowing and then attach the poor stereotype of terrorist. That is still discrimination against skin color.


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## Explorer (May 6, 2012)

@theReverend: A friend of mine called me up totally pissed off after a job interview serving in a fine dining restaurant. "On the paper in front of the guy, he had written 'black... but well groomed.'" *That's* what people don't really think about, and don't perceive, that people *do* have to work against a base expectation. In this case, M. was black, so his being well groomed was a "but" tagged on. 

I suspect a lot of people aren't aware of how pervasive racism is in the US, and unless you are in certain places at certain times, you might never become aware of it because you never experience it. 

A friend of mine and I drove together to a week-long music camp where we had both been contracted to teach. I had taught there before over the years, and although she hadn't, almost every teacher in her field who had taught there had been her student. She grew up in southern California. 

We get to the desk, I get my packet from the main organizer, and then my friend introduces herself. The organizer gets a weird look, because if she only dealt with my friend on the phone, she wouldn't have known my friend is black. 

And then, in spite of rave reviews by the students, she was never invited back. I asked who was teaching in that section the next year when I got the call, and it was again back to her students. I placed some calls, asked around, and wound up contacting my list of former students, letting them know that I'd not be returning because I felt my friend was kept from teaching there because of her race, and it possibly making some people uncomfortable.

And I didn't want to be part of something which would exclude my dear friend P. purely because of the color of her skin.

----

To me, that's what this approach is getting at. If you realize that an organization, or a part of society, is practicing racism in any way, you need to call them on it. To say, I don't see racism and therefore it doesn't really exist in that way, you need to exclude a huge amount of experiences from those who go through it every day. 

And, given the large amount of my friends across the US who run into racism, it's my opinion that if you are arguing there isn't really racism in the US, you really need to open your eyes and do some research. Just saying you don't believe it is an easy cop-out, but doesn't make it true. 

Again, this may just be my opinion, and the Reverend might be completely full of shit, and you might be completely right. 

Er... is that really likely?


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## flint757 (May 6, 2012)

Well I do think people,who say it isn't nearly as bad are referring to social encounters/confrontations. I have seen improvement even in my lifetime in that regard. If you look at it from a family perspective my great grandparents were incredibly racist, my grandparents I'd say are the socially non-racist, but may buy into stereotypes and my parents a little off the scale from there. For myself I'd say I'm not racist in the slightest, but since I'm talking about myself I may be biased. My point is with each generation I do observe racism decreasing with each generation. Most people rarely think about the more important aspects of racism like jobs, elected positions, or anything else rather important with a screening process.


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## highlordmugfug (May 6, 2012)

bhakan said:


> I didn't mean criticizing religion, but religious stereotypes (ie: atheists are bad people, muslims are terrorists, etc.), but I do agree that it probably wasn't the best example.
> 
> What point did I miss?
> 
> If that's directed at me, I agree with everything said here.



I was talking about this:


flint757 said:


> The premise here is that you can change the outward things that affect you (cut hair, pretend to be religious, etc.), but you can't change skin color and no matter what anyone does personally or outwardly the initial gut
> instinct of people is reaching to stereotypes based on race that can easily affect ones ability to get a job or many other things that can sadly be affected. That isn't even limited to black or white because I'd imagine it
> affects even Hispanic or Oriental heritage in a negative light, even positive stereotypes can be negative especially if the person doesn't measure up.



So my bad, I misunderstood your purpose/point. 

I still don't really understand what point you were trying to make though.


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## groph (May 6, 2012)

flint757 said:


> Well I do think people,who say it isn't nearly as bad are referring to social encounters/confrontations. I have seen improvement even in my lifetime in that regard. If you look at it from a family perspective my great grandparents were incredibly racist, my grandparents I'd say are the socially non-racist, but may buy into stereotypes and my parents a little off the scale from there. *For myself I'd say I'm not racist in the slightest*, but since I'm talking about myself I may be biased. My point is with each generation I do observe racism decreasing with each generation. Most people rarely think about the more important aspects of racism like jobs, elected positions, or anything else rather important with a screening process.



You almost definitely are racist to some degree if you're white and grew up in North America at any point in its history. I'm initially scared of large black men. I'll more readily criticize the grammar of black people than white people - I'll notice it more. No, you probably don't ACTUALLY believe that other "races" are objectively inferior so no you're not "racist" in that strict definition but you hold certain attitudes that have their roots in a perceived inferiority of a group of people. The grammar (when I typed this I initially wrote "bad grammar" unconcsiously, so there, I'm Hitler too.) of a black person who speaks in "ebonics" or some "black" dialect is compared to "proper" "white" grammar and I'll guess that that is rooted in the notion that blacks aren't properly "civilized." 

Racism may be decreasing with each generation but that's not just happening for no reason. There are people out there who actively fight this stuff. If there was no civil rights movement I bet I'd be having my supper served to me by Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben right about now. Maybe that's a bit of an extreme example, but there is no guaranteed linear progression towards a racism-free society. It's not going to "just happen." I'm not trying to call you an idiot or anything, but it's* common as hell* to see white people nowadays dismiss the possibility that they might hold some racist attitudes. Are they rallying together and forming lynch mobs, no, so yeah I think people are generally less racist from a blatant violence point of view but racism is still around, it's just expressed in different ways.



bhakan said:


> ^Well that's terrible. That's a completely different thing. But you're saying that whites are biased because they aren't experiencing racism, but there is no bias whatsoever in the other side of the story? There's bias in everything, I'm not saying the bias is equal on both sides, but everything has some degree of bias. There's two sides to every story. Violence is one thing, but isn't it possible that some examples of racism really weren't meant to be racist, but taken the wrong way?



By bringing the issue of bias into the picture, you're derailing the discussion by downplaying the importance or significance discriminatory action has had on people. Does that make me some kind of fascist "the opinions of white people are never valid in race discussions" douche? Well no, but I'd be more inclined to realize that you are in a position of privilege, which you are aware of, but I'd trust a minority's account of racial discrimination. You haven't lived it, they have. In a blunt sense, and I'm not talking about you, white people don't know racism even if it smacked them in the face. They're way more likely to downplay the reality of racism and explain it an instance of discrimination away with other things. Great way to stick your head in the sand and believe the world is cushy and lovely and free of racism because we have a black president and no slavery.



bhakan said:


> While the examples I used are definitely trivial problems,* is discrimination against a lifestyle choice so different from racial discrimination?* Obviously in that case I could get out of those stereotypes whenever I want, which makes the situation not as big of deal, but from an ideological standpoint, its just as wrong. Shouldn't we have the right to dress/live how we want without being discriminated against? And like I said in the beginning of this post, i tried to say that I don't understand what it feels like, but worded it poorly.
> 
> I did not watch the video, so sorry if I'm missing something, but what do these stats relating to the 1960's and prior have to do with my post. When I meant modern times I meant within the last 10-20 years or so.
> 
> To rephrase what I said earlier, as i think my original post conveyed my meaning badly in certain cases, out of people that I personally know (friends/family), almost none of them will discriminate against a person based on skin color any more than any other factor of their appearance. The reason I said I think racism is exaggerated is because in my experience, most of the time racism has been brought up has been when someone said something negative about some minority, and they arbitrarily connected it to racism, when it clearly had nothing to do with race, but the person's character. I think there is bias on both sides, whites (including me) see it as less of a problem than it really is while some minorities may exaggerate the severity. Basically, does it ever occur to you that those talking about how bad racism is have their own share of bias?



Discrimination isn't a conceptual abstraction, it's very real and different instances of it arise out of different conditions and have different effects. I think the difference lies in the fact that racial discrimination is based in something that is entirely beyond the control of the victim IE you can't choose to be born white as well as (and this is arguably the most important difference) the "momentum" such discrimination has achieved due to institutionalized racist policies like the Jim Crow laws, slavery, and other things like pervasive negative stereotypes in various media.



The Reverend said:


> The worst part is when people try to compliment me for speaking like an 'educated' person. What they mean is *white*. I can use big words while speaking with a ghetto accent, but that wouldn't impress anybody, would it? In fact, because I don't align with a lot of black stereotypes, *people in my personal life often use me to explain why there's a difference between 'black' people and 'niggers'.*
> 
> If I get arrested, I have to worry about what people will see me as. Not a college student who got drunk and fucked up, but a *black criminal*.



Yeah I fucking hate that, the "difference between a black person and a "n-word."" Generally it's some smartass white kid comparing 50 Cent to Bill Cosby. I'm guilty of having said that until it dawned upon me what I was implying, that "non-nword" = white and "nword" = black. Nword and black are one in the same. Never was a difference.

And the second part, yeah that would probably be my first impulse. What, 70-75% of inmates in US prisons are black, while the black population overall is something like 10-15%? The lives of blacks have been controlled and criminalized in America since they got off the boat. It's ingrained in our consciousness that black people have criminal tendencies and that this is a racial trait. People associate black men with criminality. "but lol den why do black people keep commitn crimes lol?" Tell the police what "equal treatment under the law" means. 


Reporters Beaten by Mob of Blacks and Their Newspaper Stayed Silent | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes

And this, what a fucking mess. In the comments you've got the "LIBERAL MEDIA CONTROLS OUR NATION" conspiracy conservatives, people invoking the Holocaust, conservatives invoking "this is a hate crime" which is fucking ironic since they're the ones who don't support hate crime legislation unless they can twist the story to suit their narrative, same thing applies to attacks on free speech and religious freedom and the whole notion of "political correctness" as one fucking nard went ahead saying that it wouldn't be PC if this story was reported in the news because it would make black people look bad so there'd have to be an apology to the emperors of black people, Sharpton and Jackson.

The whole article plays to your fears and prejudices. They don't draw explicit connections to different events:

"The day after the attack Forster searched Twitter and found a chilling tweet Washington wrote.
&#8220;I feel for the white man who got beat up at the light,&#8221; one person wrote.
_*&#8220;I don&#8217;t,&#8221; wrote another, indicating laughter. &#8216;(do it for trayvon martin) (sic)&#8221;*_
&#8220;Were Forster and Rostami beaten in some kind of warped, vigilante retribution for a killing 750 miles away, a person none of them knew?&#8221; Washington wrote. &#8220;Was it just bombast? Is a beating funny, ever?&#8221;"


They don't connect it to Trayvon but they go right ahead and suggest that the two incidences are connected to scare us white people into thinking that there are mobs of black people going around randomly beating whites to avenge Trayvon Martin. "Fair and balanced" my pearly white fucking ass. This isn't conservatism, this is fear mongering. Don't counter "liberal bias" with this garbage.



Fuck it.







EDIT: In truly hilarious fashion, it appears that every commenter on that abysmal article is white. There's a guy saying that "the liberals must have an ink blotter to censor any comments that don't follow the liberal line" but there are only "conservative" points of view expressed in the comments. These people can't interpret the reality staring them in the face. These people are "conservatives?" I don't want to fall into the "no true Scotsman" rhetorical fallacy but my god, this can't represent a political stance. It appears I've also gone ahead and did what the Fox article is guilty of and associated something negative with a group so go ahead and call me out on it. I inadvertently do that sometimes.

LOL RACISM EDIT: 

Wayne Everingham (one of the comments)

Unfortunately, Blacques, instead of being inspired by America's first blacque Presiden to reach greater heights are now showing what animals they truly are.

Wow, what a fucking philistine. I assume by "blacque" he means "black." Maybe by butchering the spelling he's absolving himself of accusations of racism. "But I didn't say BLACKS were animals!"


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## flint757 (May 6, 2012)

There is definitely a scale of racism, no doubt about it. I do do the same things you mentioned from time to time. My point was that there is a shift, no one in particular has shaped me to think the way I do. In terms of the things you said you do I didn't used to until I moved into the city. Being followed and mocked just 5 feet behind me by a few black dudes is insulting and very intimidating. Almost every crime report at our school was by a black guy. Does that mean that this would be the case across the board, of course not, otherwise I'd have to say all white people are rednecks/drunkards and any other poorly made stereotype for every other person on this planet. Honestly, I've come to a point where if anyone is near me no matter what color though I'm aware and wary of what may happen. Houston has made me paranoid in general. Crime though is more connected with poverty than race and in Houston, after Katrina, the majority of inner city poverty is black so from a statistics level it does make since why there is a disproportion in terms of crime.

Anyone feel free to tell me if I stepped over the invisible line or am incorrect in any way


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## Cyanide_Anima (May 12, 2012)




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## Azathoth43 (May 21, 2012)

bhakan said:


> While that does suck, and what those people do is in no way condoned, similar things happen in every type of discrimination. While driving, I've been pulled over for stupid things, cause I'm a younger guy driving a muscle car, a lot of people suspect that I do drugs because I'm a metal head, and while in Europe, I was given coke at basically every meal, because everyone assumed "oh, he's American, he must drink only soda." Obviously yours are much worse, but everyone will get some sort of impression from your appearance, and as long as they are just initial opinions, and can be changed once they get to know you, it's a necessary part of life. It seems to me that in modern times racism is sort of blown out proportion (but I'm white, so I may be completely ignorant to a lot of what goes on).



Really? Soda at every meal? Man how could you stand that? That's terrible.

I'm white as white can be. I used to drive a 2000 BMW 540i. I never once got pulled over, _ever_. Even if I was driving thirty over and passing a cop.

Why is it when ever there is a discussion about rasism white people come out of the wood work to talk about how hard they have it. It's childish and insulting to the topic. If my hair style choice was holding me back from getting an education/raise/job advancement etc. and it bothered me? I'd cut my fucking hair. I, routinely, shock people when I tell them I don't do drugs. 

And of course you think rasism is blown out of proportion....you're white. You get to go to Europe and feel discriminated against by being served Coke. All the while my neighbours son (who is black) get his car basicly dismantled because a fucking K-9 dog *stops* next to it! Didn't sniff, or bark or anything like that. It simply stopped next to his car. And they said it was probable cause.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but if that's the worst that happens to you, you're making out pretty fucking good.


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## bhakan (May 21, 2012)

^I admit that was a badly worded post on my part. Rereading it, I definitely came across wrong. 

I meant to get across two points which I definitely failed to convey well. The first was _not _that I have it bad at all, but just that all elements of appearance effect the stereotype somebody generates when they see you, not that I am discriminated against. Again, I wasn't saying that I was being discriminated against, and I wasn't saying that there isn't racism, but that there may often be more factors then just race (still just speculation, as I have stressed before, I don't have first hand experience being discriminated against).

The other was because the original topic said something along the lines of "anybody not fighting for racial equality is supporting racism," which was then corroborated by many examples of racism, and I think that that paints a picture of the majority of the white population being racist, which, at least for people I know, doesn't seem to be true, as it is a very small minority of my friends/family/acquaintances that show any sign of racism.

I think it came across like I thought I knew everything about the topic, which I will openly admit I don't (not by a long shot). It just seems that when talking about racism, people only talk about when a minority was pulled over arbitrarily by a cop, or when a minority didn't get a job they should have, but nobody ever mentions the times that a cop doesn't discriminate and the time a minority did get the job, and it just seems to paint a picture of all white people being scum who still think that other races are inferior and such. Just trying to say that in some cases, maybe the cop or manager or whoever wasn't racist, but was suspicious of/disliked/whatever some other quality than race.


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## bob123 (May 30, 2012)

Y'all need to go watch some chris rock.


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## Explorer (May 31, 2012)

Since this got bumped, I'll note that quite a few surprising attitudes have been brought up in the following threads:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...76-pastor-put-homosexuals-electric-fence.html

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...yers-sent-out-stay-classy-north-carolina.html

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-current-events/197358-obama-coming-out-14.html#post3031604

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...-im-never-taking-my-car-get-worked-again.html

It's not just that there have been a few members (and now some former members) who suddenly demonstrate attitudes which surprise the rest of us, but it's also surprising the vigor with which they defend prejudice, even making it about how intolerant others are by not financially supporting those who want to stifle the rights of others. WTF?


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## Waelstrum (May 31, 2012)

I think that it is (in part) a result of some people not knowing the difference between noticing someone's race (or sexuality/religion/other) and being racist, which they then extrapolate to pointing out racism makes you racist because you're seeing the world in a racial context.


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## Explorer (May 31, 2012)

Ah... like noticing someone being physically abused makes you an abuser. Those who draw their curtains and avoid noticing that someone is getting beaten by their husband are not complicit, only those who notice it and try to stop it.

I get it.

I don't agree, but I get it. 

Is that really their point of view? That seems really weak and nonsensical, like anyone would be able to think that through and refute it. Does that argument work?


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## Waelstrum (May 31, 2012)

It's an excuse I've heard, but it only works for relatively small things, like not getting served by an ice-cream man. I doubt they'd say the same of institutionalised racism on a Jim Crow level.


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## Explorer (May 31, 2012)

I don't know that they wouldn't. It's been interesting how strongly some argue in favor of behavior most of us would condemn... or, rather, which I naively assume most of us would condemn....


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## K3V1N SHR3DZ (May 31, 2012)

Explorer said:


> That seems really weak and nonsensical, like anyone would be able to think that through and refute it.



But we (assuming we are both Americans) live in a country starved of critical thinking, where truth is determined by the number and zeal of the believers.

Something like Sagan's baloney detection kit is near heresy, or just being a "condescending asshole" in my part of the country.


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## Explorer (May 31, 2012)

I've loved how some people use "Why do you hate America?!!!" to frame debates. I've recently started using that when talking with legislators, especially when it's a public affair.

"Why do you not want Americans to know this information? Taking choice away is deeply un-American!! Why do you hate American freedom?!!!" Basically, there was some stonewalling of information, because some manufacturers know they're not doing something which most Americans would want to support, and so the manufacturers want to disallow producers who use alternate methods from labeling their product as avoiding the bad/unsustainable/unhealthy method. As soon as you can make it about a politician taking away choice, they have to cave or risk offending their base. 

Yup. I'm learning how to apply political pressure to keep people honest. It makes me mad to lose my innocence, but what can you do?


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