# Real world impressions of the Horizon Apex Preamp?



## Silence2-38554 (Nov 10, 2019)

I've been thinking about picking one of these up for a while, but looking through YouTube reviews, etc., it seems to be REALLY hit & miss. Some reviews it sounds great, others it sounds like a dark piece of cardboard. What's the deal?? I absolutely love my Precision Drive, so naturally I'd like to try something else from Horizon.

What I did notice is that most reviewers that got a great tone out of it weren't actually using it as a preamp, but as a distortion pedal in from of their amp's existing preamp. When used as an actual preamp going into the FX loop return, it sounds, well.... pretty bad.

How have people here gotten along with it? Since it can be run on a 9v, I'm honestly hoping to use it as a portable / travel-able "rig in a box" & just run headphones out of the line-level output.


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## Spinedriver (Nov 10, 2019)

From what I've read, a lot of people are saying that it's basically an MXR 5150 pedal with a cab sim and a "tight" switch instead of a "boost" button. There are a few demos out there that a/b them and there does seem to be a slight difference between the two but I don't know if it would warrant the extra $100 or so price tag. It really depends on if you like the "cab sim" feature or not. As you pointed out, a lot of people don't seem to like it very much.

Even funnier, is that when Rabea from Anderton's did his demo video of it, he basically used it as if it were a boost pedal into an already overdriven amp channel. Apparently, he either forgot what he was demoing or he just thought it sounded better as a boost than it did on it's own as a preamp.


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## narad (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> Apparently, he either forgot what he was demoing or he just thought it sounded better as a boost than it did on it's own as a preamp.



Hills I will die on: Preamp pedals are just boosts with a lot of gain.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> Even funnier, is that when Rabea from Anderton's did his demo video of it, he basically used it as if it were a boost pedal into an already overdriven amp channel. Apparently, he either forgot what he was demoing or he just thought it sounded better as a boost than it did on it's own as a preamp.


Lol. wtf?


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## Spinedriver (Nov 11, 2019)

narad said:


> Hills I will die on: Preamp pedals are just boosts with a lot of gain.



_Technically, _a "preamp" pedal is just a regular distortion pedal with added cab emulation at the output so that you can run it either directly into a power amp or mixing console and not have it sound like fizzy garbage. That's what the Sansamp pedals are, so you could say that they were the first "preamp" pedals to be widely popular.
The thing is, a lot of companies are just throwing the word 'preamp' on whatever drive pedal they make just as a marketing tool, regardless of whether it'll actually work as a preamp or not. The Mooer micro pedals & the AMT Legend pedals ARE preamp pedals because they have cab emulation. Pedals like the MXR 5150 or Empress Heavy are NOT preamp pedals because if you were to plug them into a regular power amp (not the fx return of an amp head) they will pretty much sound like hot garbage.



Spaced Out Ace said:


> Lol. wtf?



A number of people are making the comparison is because the Horizon pedals are a collaboration between Misha and MXR. They are helping him out with pedal designs and are doing all of the manufacturing. If you look at the Apex & 5150 side by side, they are (pretty much) the same size, same knobs and even the same layout. That's not to say they didn't change the center frequencies for the b/m/h or perhaps different pots to give allow a wider range for tone variance but the inherent gain characteristic seems to be close to the same.

Here's Misha himself using a 5150 pedal with a Precision Drive.


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## Shask (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> _Technically, _a "preamp" pedal is just a regular distortion pedal with added cab emulation at the output so that you can run it either directly into a power amp or mixing console and not have it sound like fizzy garbage. That's what the Sansamp pedals are, so you could say that they were the first "preamp" pedals to be widely popular.



I am confused by this statement. A cab emulation is really something completely different and has nothing to do with it being a preamp. It is just a nice perk of an extra feature. A great example is pretty much every tube rack preamp from the 80s and 90s.

Being a Preamp basically means the output volume and impedance is set to match going into a poweramp. They have to have much higher volume available as compared to a normal distortion pedal.

The other difference is normally distortion pedals are designed with the idea in mind that they are going into a scooped clean channel. Distortion pedals tend to have way more mids than normal to compensate for that. Pure preamp pedals should be designed so that the EQ is naturally more scooped because they will not be passing through another preamp with its own EQ in the amp.


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## narad (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> _Technically, _a "preamp" pedal is just a regular distortion pedal with added cab emulation at the output so that you can run it either directly into a power amp or mixing console and not have it sound like fizzy garbage.



A preamp pedal should be a pedal format preamp. Preamps don't have cab emulation, therefore preamp pedals cannot be defined as having cab emulation. Q. E. D.


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## ATRguitar91 (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> _Technically, _a "preamp" pedal is just a regular distortion pedal with added cab emulation at the output so that you can run it either directly into a power amp or mixing console and not have it sound like fizzy garbage.


Gonna have to disagree with this. As noted by @Shask, a pedal being a preamp has more to do with how it's EQed and the output it has on tap. 
The preamp pedals I've used that are a proper preamp pedal have much wider EQ capabilities than a simple distortion. This really comes into play with the treble range. Most distortion pedals into an effects return are too dark to sound good on their own. But pedals geared towards being a preamp, like the Empress Heavy, are able to put out a lot more high end to sound good straight into a preamp. Admittedly this can be fixed with EQ on the power amp or something like a depth finder. 

To get back on topic, the treble problem seems to show up with the Apex preamp. It's just too dark to work on its own as a preamp. I feel like it gets a bit more flack than it deserves as one can likely coax good tones out of it, but there are better options out there for the price range.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> _Technically, _a "preamp" pedal is just a regular distortion pedal with added cab emulation at the output so that you can run it either directly into a power amp or mixing console and not have it sound like fizzy garbage. That's what the Sansamp pedals are, so you could say that they were the first "preamp" pedals to be widely popular.
> The thing is, a lot of companies are just throwing the word 'preamp' on whatever drive pedal they make just as a marketing tool, regardless of whether it'll actually work as a preamp or not. The Mooer micro pedals & the AMT Legend pedals ARE preamp pedals because they have cab emulation. Pedals like the MXR 5150 or Empress Heavy are NOT preamp pedals because if you were to plug them into a regular power amp (not the fx return of an amp head) they will pretty much sound like hot garbage.
> 
> 
> ...



Not what my comment was in reference to. It was in reference to Rabea.


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## Spinedriver (Nov 11, 2019)

Shask said:


> I am confused by this statement. A cab emulation is really something completely different and has nothing to do with it being a preamp. It is just a nice perk of an extra feature. A great example is pretty much every tube rack preamp from the 80s and 90s.
> 
> Being a Preamp basically means the output volume and impedance is set to match going into a poweramp. They have to have much higher volume available as compared to a normal distortion pedal.
> 
> The other difference is normally distortion pedals are designed with the idea in mind that they are going into a scooped clean channel. Distortion pedals tend to have way more mids than normal to compensate for that. Pure preamp pedals should be designed so that the EQ is naturally more scooped because they will not be passing through another preamp with its own EQ in the amp.





narad said:


> A preamp pedal should be a pedal format preamp. Preamps don't have cab emulation, therefore preamp pedals cannot be defined as having cab emulation. Q. E. D.





ATRguitar91 said:


> Gonna have to disagree with this. As noted by @Shask, a pedal being a preamp has more to do with how it's EQed and the output it has on tap.
> The preamp pedals I've used that are a proper preamp pedal have much wider EQ capabilities than a simple distortion. This really comes into play with the treble range. Most distortion pedals into an effects return are too dark to sound good on their own. But pedals geared towards being a preamp, like the Empress Heavy, are able to put out a lot more high end to sound good straight into a preamp. Admittedly this can be fixed with EQ on the power amp or something like a depth finder.
> 
> To get back on topic, the treble problem seems to show up with the Apex preamp. It's just too dark to work on its own as a preamp. I feel like it gets a bit more flack than it deserves as one can likely coax good tones out of it, but there are better options out there for the price range.



I stand corrected. 

Pretty much every pedal I've ever tried that wasn't a 'preamp' sounded brittle and 'fizzy' (the Mooer Preamp did this when I plugged it directly into my interface and turned the irs off). I guess I'm just equating the compensated eq at the output as being a 'cab sim'.


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## Shask (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> Pretty much every pedal I've ever tried that wasn't a 'preamp' sounded brittle and 'fizzy' (the Mooer Preamp did this when I plugged it directly into my interface and turned the irs off). I guess I'm just equating the compensated eq at the output as being a 'cab sim'.


Speaking of Mooer, I think they corrected their design after the initial run and customer complaints. There are many complaints out there about these having very low volume and brittle sound. I have an older one, and a couple newer ones, and the newer ones are definitely better. They cranked out much more volume, and it sounds fuller overall. I think those early ones were not right in some way. I have to keep the volume on like 9 on my 001, but on like 3 on my 2nd gen 005.


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## Spinedriver (Nov 11, 2019)

Shask said:


> Speaking of Mooer, I think they corrected their design after the initial run and customer complaints. There are many complaints out there about these having very low volume and brittle sound. I have an older one, and a couple newer ones, and the newer ones are definitely better. They cranked out much more volume, and it sounds fuller overall. I think those early ones were not right in some way. I have to keep the volume on like 9 on my 001, but on like 3 on my 2nd gen 005.



I just recently got the Preamp Live and I gotta say I'm pretty impressed. I will say though that when I run my MXR 5150 directly into a Mooer Radar, it does sound pretty "dark" as you put it. However, if I run it into a clean preamp model in a Pod X3, it fixes that right up.


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## wakjob (Nov 11, 2019)

Silence2-38554 said:


> What I did notice is that most reviewers that got a great tone out of it weren't actually using it as a preamp, but as a distortion pedal in from of their amp's existing preamp. When used as an actual preamp going into the FX loop return, it sounds, well.... pretty bad.



Did you see Ola Englund in Australia (I think) at that guys house that had all the Dime guitars?...

He had the Apex plugged into the front end of a Peavey XXX, but couldn't tell if he was using it as a boost to the dirt channel or the clean channel...


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## Spaced Out Ace (Nov 11, 2019)

I think it is into the clean channel. They also mention it when Ola plays the red V.


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## thrashinbatman (Nov 11, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> Pretty much every pedal I've ever tried that wasn't a 'preamp' sounded brittle and 'fizzy' (the Mooer Preamp did this when I plugged it directly into my interface and turned the irs off). I guess I'm just equating the compensated eq at the output as being a 'cab sim'.


That's what preamps sound like when not run into an IR or cab. When I plug any of my heads into my Captor and don't add the IR, it sounds harsh, fizzy, and nasty. Any high-gain situation needs a cab or IR to smooth it out. The benefit of the Apex or the Mooers is that they come with one built-in so you can run it into an interface or to FOH without micing a cab or getting another device to load an IR. It's been said by now, but the difference is that the Mooers are designed to be used in their own right, not in conjunction with a full amp like distortion and overdrive pedals.


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## narad (Nov 11, 2019)

Anyone that wants to make a distinction between distortion pedal and preamp pedal on the grounds of EQ, what are these?


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## ATRguitar91 (Nov 12, 2019)

narad said:


> Anyone that wants to make a distinction between distortion pedal and preamp pedal on the grounds of EQ, what are these?
> /QUOTE]
> It's not about how much control the EQ has, it's the frequency range represented. A preamp pedal should have more treble output on tap so as to not sound very dark direct into a power amp. It should also ideally have a presence control to boost the highest frequencies and avoid that overly warm sound.


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## narad (Nov 12, 2019)

That all sounds sensible but also totally made up and arbitrary. Like if I had a distortion pedal with a wide frequency range and a presence control, it just magically became a preamp pedal? That mesa pedal looks like it has a pretty robust EQ section, but it's a distortion pedal. The Apex pedal calls itself a preamp, but it doesn't have the presence control (and frankly probably has a more restricted EQ than a lot of these other "distortion" pedals.) I mean, hey, look -- presence control, must be another preamp pedal:




Ahhh, shit it says distortion on it. 

People ran distortion pedals directly into preamps long before marketing them as preamps became a thing. Just because you can stick it into the fx return doesn't make it a new type of device.

More likely: people wanted to charge $300+ for a distortion pedal and wanted to market it differently.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 12, 2019)

Well shit, if they fixed the volume and noise issues with the Mooers, I may need to try one again.


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## USMarine75 (Nov 12, 2019)

What's the difference between a distortion pedal and a preamp pedal?





$100.


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## ATRguitar91 (Nov 12, 2019)

narad said:


> Like if I had a distortion pedal with a wide frequency range and a presence control, it just magically became a preamp pedal?


There's more gray area than that obviously. The Metal Zone is a great example. It's a distortion pedal, but it sounds pretty good as a preamp thanks to its EQ flexibility and that can of bees sound actually works out okay into a power amp.

I think it's fair to say there is some misleading marketing to it, but I feel like there are some pedals that can justify being called a preamp. Where you draw that line is arbitrary because realistically just about any distortion pedal can be made to work as a preamp. I'm just speaking from my experience in trying out various distortion/preamp pedals into a solid state power amp and what has worked.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Nov 12, 2019)

ATRguitar91 said:


> There's more gray area than that obviously. The Metal Zone is a great example. It's a distortion pedal, but it sounds pretty good as a preamp thanks to its EQ flexibility and that can of bees sound actually works out okay into a power amp.
> 
> I think it's fair to say there is some misleading marketing to it, but I feel like there are some pedals that can justify being called a preamp. Where you draw that line is arbitrary because realistically just about any distortion pedal can be made to work as a preamp. I'm just speaking from my experience in trying out various distortion/preamp pedals into a solid state power amp and what has worked.


The Full Bore sounds great as a preamp. See the new Will It Chug video from Ola.


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## wakjob (Nov 12, 2019)

Most dirt boxes don't have enough output signal to drive the phase inverter of a power amp...

They'll make sound, and may even sound loud...
But are not meeting the required signal levels to drive a power amp properly, like a true preamp.


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## Spinedriver (Nov 12, 2019)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The Full Bore sounds great as a preamp. See the new Will It Chug video from Ola.



You've obviously never tried one in person.. 

Seriously though, I don't know if it's the power amp, the Hesu cab or what it is but Ola can make pretty much anything sound halfway decent. He's not wrong in saying that the Fullbore is VERY MUCH in the same mold as the Boss Metal Zone but it's nowhere near as refined as something like the Revv G3/G4 or MXR 5150. I thought the same thing in that I've seen demos of the Full Bore before that didn't sound that bad but when I tried it in person, I think I may have spent around 10 minutes messing around with it before I gave it back to the sales guy to put it back in the display case. It really wasn't very good.


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## oneblackened (Nov 14, 2019)

Okay, because a lot of you seem to be quibbling about what makes a preamp different from a distortion pedal:

The big thing is that a distortion pedal doesn't have a built in midscoop in the tonestack (all guitar amp and preamp tonestacks have a mid scoop to correct for guitar pickups being _incredibly_ midrange-heavy). A preamp pedal has one too - which is why they sound, well, not great run into a clean channel with a tonestack. 

Anyway, re: the Apex: It's a slightly tweaked 5150 OD, and really sounds good in front of an amp and not as a standalone preamp.


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## narad (Nov 14, 2019)

The fact no one here agrees with what makes a preamp pedal is just further proof that there is no such thing. Nor do manufacturers agree. Nor do people here agree with the manufacturers.


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## danpintos (Nov 15, 2019)

I think it's just hype. I don't know if anyone else is experiencing this, but I don't think it's a coincidence that all of a sudden I'm seeing ad after ad online where random guitar players are endorsing this pedal.


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## lewis (Nov 15, 2019)

Best "preamp" stuff ive experienced is when actual preamp sections of tube amps are made available in their own package.

For example the ENGL E530 tube rack preamp.
Pedals trying to do this end up being glorified distortion boxes instead imo. The blue print is too small in a pedal housing to really have a preamp section in there? (Guessing)

Distortion pedals can be amazing - but they surely cant be called Preamp pedals?


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## superheavydeathmetal (Apr 22, 2020)

I am resurrecting this thread since it came up in my Google searchings for an answer to this same question...



Silence2-38554 said:


> How have people here gotten along with it? Since it can be run on a 9v, I'm honestly hoping to use it as a portable / travel-able "rig in a box" & just run headphones out of the line-level output.



One problem you are going to have is that the output of the preamp is mono. If you plug headphones directly into the output of the Apex you are only going to get sound in your left ear. To get sound in both ears, you will need to get a spitter of some type. This is a very inexpensive part, but it is something you will be sorry about if you forget to pack it.
For a permanent solution, you _might_ be able open the thing up, remove the stock jack and solder in a stereo jack. I haven't tried this, so I can't promise it will work. Now, in my limited experience, this won't cause a problem if you try use it with an amp or DI recording after this modification because the ring will either not be connected, or it will be shorted to ground. However, I am not a recording engineer, or a sound guy. Maybe this could cause a problem that I am not aware of.

Another issue, potentially (not for me), is that if you adjust the gain of the preamp on the fly, this will have a significant effect on your overall volume level. If you are playing along at high gain and then back off of the gain, your guitar will dissapear, and you will have to also adjust the volume to compensate.

Unquestionably, a better option for a travel-friendly headphone amp is the Line 6 Pocket POD, for several reasons:
• It has a stereo output (earbuds-sized jack, not a 1/4" studio headphones jack).
• It has an auxiliary input, so you can plug your phone or computer in it to play along with any song you want.
• It has a built-in tuner.
• It is more versatile by orders of magnitude: it has several amp models, several cab models, and a ton of effects built in. The Apex does one thing.
• It is much cheaper.
I have had a Pocket POD for about 12 years for this very purpose and I couldn't be happier with it.

As for the sound, again, the Line 6 is far and away the better choice for headphone use. This goes back to the built in effects. Adding a touch of chorus (I use the smallest amount the POD will do) dramatically improves high-gain tone through headphones. The Apex, of course, does not have built-in chrous.

Now, I am not trying to bash the Apex, here. The Pocket POD was designed for this very purpose, whereas the Apex was designed to be a studio-quality high-gain preamp, so it's really not a fair comparison for this purpose.

Also, no matter what you choose, just buy a power adapter. Don't suffer with batteries.


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