# Dream Theater



## p0ke

Can it really be true that there's no Dream Theater megathread on this forum!? I tried looking for one and I couldn't find it. So, if it really doesn't exist, let's turn this one into one!

Anyway, what I had in mind was to ask whether DT has played A Nightmare to Remember recently. I didn't find any live videos anyway. I guess I just wanted to see Mangini playing blastbeats and couldn't find any footage of it  Well, I know it's in the drummer auditions though.


----------



## bostjan

I was all about Dream Theater when I was in my late teens and early twenties. 

I started listening to them when a dear friend of mine introduced me to _Awake_. I had already heard "Under a Glass Moon," and thought that the song was radical, especially the crazy guitar solo, which, to this day, I still think is perhaps the best guitar solo ever. And, of course, I had heard "Pull Me Under." But, for whatever reason, I hadn't become fanatical about them. I guess part of it was that my musical tastes went through phases and I happened to be out of phase with progressive rock when _Images and Words_ came out, although I had previously been a big fan of Emerson Lake and Palmer as well as Rush...

I saw Dream Theater live more times than I can recall. I shudder to think about how much in total I've spent on concert tickets over the years, but I've only ever seen a handful of "mainstream" artists more than once: Dream Theater, Buckethead, Santana, Page and Plant, Metallica...I think that's it. I would have loved to have seen Symphony X multiple times, but I have terrible luck actually getting out to see them - either being out of town when they are in town, or, in one case, getting a terrible case of food poisoning.

I saw them play _A Change of Seasons_ with a local opening band that hung around the same circles my band did. The show was on top of a parking structure, and there were maybe a couple hundred people there. It was an incredible show - very intimate. 

I also saw them at Gigantour, playing for a crowd of thousands and thousands, and that was an incredible show.

Of all the times I've seen them, I've actually never caught a bad show, but I will say that John Myung had a few minor flubs during earlier shows. It almost made me wonder if he did those on purpose just so people wouldn't start to doubt that the band members were human.

I know there's a lot of wang-measuring contests when it comes to bringing up players like Pettrucci or Malmsteen or whomever, but you can count me in with the small minority who things that these guys play some of the most tasteful stuff. All warp speed playing aside, I think 'Trutch is a phenomenal player who is super-musical and very diverse. I feel the same way about Mike Portnoy on the drums. No disrespect to Mangini, but I think it's a shame that Portnoy started clashing so much with the rest of the band and they couldn't reign him in, and instead ended up letting him go. I know that Mangini can keep up and whatever, but I don't feel the same chemistry with him, but, to be fair, the chemistry with Portnoy got weird there toward the end, as well, but I still like to think back to when the band was hitting on all cylinders, and how well it worked.

Now that I'm nearing 40 and have a baby at home and I've completed a few career arcs trying to be a serious adult, I really don't follow Dream Theater that closely. They're kind of like an old friend who used to be so much fun to be around, but, as you got older, the two of you developed gradually different tastes and drifted apart slowly, until you just don't call them anymore, but you still think about them and wonder how they are doing.


----------



## lurè

Not the biggest fan but Images and Words is an absolute masterpiece. 
I think all the members of the band are absolute monsters live, but unfortunately haven't had the chance to see them.


----------



## wankerness

I definitely saw them on the 6DOIT tour, and I vividly remember them opening with The Glass Prison and James Labrie trying to look all gothy crawling around on stage at the beginning. Us nerds all wore the tour shirts to high school the next day and no one else had a clue who they were. 

I think I saw them on the Train of Thought tour, but I'm not even sure. I'm getting old. The setlist from Milwaukee looks familiar! And I remember getting together for a concert with the same friends that year, but it might have only been an Opeth show.

I got into them by the OLD SCHOOL method of listening to random crap, just before cable internet and Napster were a thing - I was in the BMG music club, and would just order crap that was on sale in the metal section every month without knowing what it would sound like beyond their crummy one sentence descriptions. I got Falling Into Infinity that way, listened to it once and didn't know how to react to it other than thinking it was dry and repetitive (mainly cause of New Millennium being my first impression), and then left it in my car. Once when my friends were waiting for me somewhere, they put it on, and were like THIS IS AWESOME! After that I gave it another few listens and got really into it. I got Metropolis 2 when it came out a month or two later, and it blew my face off compared to FII, and after that I went into their back catalog and was a diehard for a few years. I had stuff like the VHS of the I&W Tokyo show, and some of the singles (The Hollow Man was by far the best cause of Eve). And one of my friends got the Live in NY DVD and we watched it with the commentary, cause we were that big of nerds.

I bought a seven string guitar purely cause of them, especially the Awake stuff and Acid Rain. I learned almost all of Metropolis 2 and FII and Awake from the tab books, and A Change of Seasons from some really good text tab that was out there, and 6DOIT from some odd format that was out on the net before the tab book, and I&W material from internet tabs cause the tab book was utterly terrible. I skipped most of the solos and lightning-fast unison runs and all that cause I wasn't very good. I stopped doing that with ToT when they started using alternate tunings on everything, cause F that (I had a floyd rose).

Awake is my favorite album. I really liked 6DOIT and ToT, and really hated Octavarium on first listen, and that was the point at which my fandom was ended. I've bought all their albums since, but I've only listened to a couple of them more than once or twice. The Astonishing was my favorite since ToT, I think. I listened to it THREE times!


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> The Hollow Man was by far the best cause of Eve


The Silent Man?

Was Eli Roth featured on that single? 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## xzacx

There was a point in time where I tried to talk myself into liking DT. I appreciate the musicianship, but other than a few particular riffs and sections here and there, I just couldn't do it. I gave "Under a Glass Moon" a listen just now after seeing @bostjan mention it, and it's even worse than I remember. Different vocalist and I could have probably gotten in to them more. As someone who's spent the last week listening to nothing but Lil Baby's new mixtape though, my opinion is clearly worthless on this subject.

(I still think the intro to The Mirror, when the synth kicks in, is truly epic though.)


----------



## bostjan

xzacx said:


> it's even worse than I remember


Even the guitar solo? ...man...


----------



## mastapimp

I too have seen DT over 5 times in concert, but fell out of love with them after college (around the time octavarium came out). I just found their new stuff less interesting at the time.

I have an interesting story regarding them and a friend of the family. Back when i was in high school, I believe I had the images and words tab book lying around on a coffee table while my Dad's college roommate was in town visiting. He saw the book and said "I know these guys, i taught them in high school jazz band." He said he had Kevin Moore, John Petrucci, and John Myung as students and fondly remembered them. He said Petrucci had one of the best ears and would spend spare time practicing at lunch and after school. He also mentioned that Myung was so shy it would translate into his playing. If they turned his amp up, he'd turn the volume down on the bass. I think those guys went off his radar when they went on to form dream theater, but he was pleasantly surprised when a box of all their music and some merch showed up one day 10 years later.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> The Silent Man?
> 
> Was Eli Roth featured on that single?
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.



I was talking about their song about Kevin Bacon raping people! Don't you know that one?!


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> I was talking about their song about Kevin Bacon raping people! Don't you know that one?!



I thought that was on their _The Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon_ album, along with "Stream of Echoes," "Fortune in Lies in America," and "Another Patriot's Day."


----------



## xzacx

bostjan said:


> Even the guitar solo? ...man...



Maybe I worded that wrong. The solo is obviously great - I just don't like it enough to be worth the four and a half minutes and keyboard interlude that precede it. When I think ones I love, solos like Tornado of Souls, or Randy stuff comes to mind. This one is similar in the sense it kinds almost could stand as it's own memorable mini-song, but the problem for me is that it still sounds like a mini-song by Dream Theater.


----------



## bostjan

xzacx said:


> Maybe I worded that wrong. The solo is obviously great - I just don't like it enough to be worth the four and a half minutes and keyboard interlude that precede it. When I think ones I love, solos like Tornado of Souls, or Randy stuff comes to mind. This one is similar in the sense it kinds almost could stand as it's own memorable mini-song, but the problem for me is that it still sounds like a mini-song by Dream Theater.


Ahh, I see.
I happen to love the song now, but I felt the same way toward it the first time I heard it - like, "Wow, that drummer sounds like he's superhuman...wow, that vocalist sounds lame...wow, that guitar solo is absolutely genius...wow, this song is still going!"  A couple years later, learning the song on guitar, and playing it for people out of context, the most common reaction was "...mmm, interesting?"


----------



## wat

At one time they were my favorite band. 

I bought Metropolis pt 2 at the suggestion of my guitar teacher in 1999. As soon as I got to Petrucci's lead in the 2nd track, "Overture 1928" I was hooked. I'd never heard ANYTHING like that before, it was the most powerful piece of music I'd ever heard. 

I'd say the golden era was everything up to and including Metropolis Part 2 (minus Falling Into Infinity). 

6 Degrees and Train of Thought are also great but just not the same...

Octavarium was pretty much the beginning of the end for me, as it seems they just aren't trying to write like they used to and I lost interest.


----------



## bostjan

wat said:


> At one time they were my favorite band.
> 
> I bought Metropolis pt 2 at the suggestion of my guitar teacher in 1999. As soon as I got to Petrucci's lead in the 2nd track, "Overture 1928" I was hooked. I'd never heard ANYTHING like that before, it was the most powerful piece of music I'd ever heard.
> 
> I'd say the golden era was everything up to and including Metropolis Part 2 (minus Falling Into Infinity).
> 
> 6 Degrees and Train of Thought are also great but just not the same...
> 
> Octavarium was pretty much the beginning of the end for me, as it seems they just aren't trying to write like they used to and I lost interest.


I quite liked some parts of 6° and almost all of ToT, but I loved every moment of _Metropolis Pt. II_, _Awake_, and _Images and Words_. Also, _A Change of Seasons_ was amazing, for me - definitely my favourite track from them until _M2SfaM_. When I first spun 6°, and the album started right where the previous album left off, I was totally blown away, then "Glass Prison," besides giving me a little bit of a weird vibe for being so much like "The Mirror/Lie" part 2, was an amazing song, but then the next couple tracks, for me, were not as strong. "The Great Debate" had a cool Tool-vibe to it, but I wasn't sure how to take the lyrics, personally, since DT had not really been very political, typically... Then the ending of disc 2 and the next album, ToT, started the same way - super cool. I guess it wasn't as cool when _Octavarium_ also did that same trick, because, well, it was sort of old by then.

This thread makes it very apparent, though, that _Octavarium_ was a big change in direction for the band. I can't even really put my finger on exactly what it was, but I agree. The chemistry of the band started changing - almost as if the band kicked its previous influences aside and started being influenced more and more only by itself, or something vaguely like that...


----------



## scrub

yep Octavarium was the change. Although I quite liked 'a dramatic turn of event's' (don't @ me). I enjoyed 'the astonishing as well...for what it was, something completely different.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

wat said:


> Octavarium was pretty much the beginning of the end for me, as it seems they just aren't trying to write like they used to and I lost interest.



I feel the same. They had the occasional good song or two on each album (even Octavarium had The Root Of All Evil), otherwise everything got really boring. The self-titled album was probably the better of the post-Octavarium releases IMO, but it got REALLY cringy with The Astonishing. 



scrub said:


> yep Octavarium was the change. Although I quite liked 'a dramatic turn of event's' (don't @ me). I enjoyed 'the astonishing as well...for what it was, something completely different.



I like to refer to everything released between Train of Thought and Dramatic Turn as "Nu Theater" because a LOT of the songs had a nu metal/alt metal feel to them.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

They've been my favorite band since about 97 when I discovered them....but it's been waning a lot. I just can't seem to sit through and listen to their recent albums (especially the astonishing). The long songs and noodling (the instrumental parts used to compliment songs but are starting to feel forced) aren't really interesting anymore. I miss portnoy as well.....hoping this next album is a turn around.


----------



## wankerness

BOLD STATEMENT: When Dream and Day Unite is better than anything post ToT!!!

BOLD STATEMENT #2: Status Seeker rules!


----------



## fps

They haven't released a really good album in 15 years. Count me as one who, when they got super into guitar, got super into Dream Theater, many hours learning their stuff, own several albums, got a T-shirt, seen them live in concert several times, amazing each time... and yet I consider them a bit of a punchline too. Absolutely some of the most hilariously po-faced lyrics of all time.


----------



## wankerness

SHE WAS PRAISED AS THE PERFECT TEENAGE GIRL

AND EVERYONE THOUGHT HIGHLY OF HER *irregularly long pause so the horrible lyric sinks in*


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> BOLD STATEMENT: When Dream and Day Unite is better than anything post ToT!!!
> 
> BOLD STATEMENT #2: Status Seeker rules!


Aside from the production quality, I agree.


----------



## groverj3

Been my favorite band for 11-12 years. As with any band that's been around as long as they have you have people who got into them early who don't like their new stuff, etc.

I tried to get into them with Octavarium. That was a mistake for a kid who listened mostly to thrash and death metal. After that, I heard Systematic Chaos when it first came out, after a friend told me he was going to see them live. That album is still my favorite. It blew my mind at 17. I went to the show, had my mind blown again, and then promptly started acquiring as much of their stuff as possible.

Sure, they have some dud songs every now and then, but by and large there's something to like on every album for every taste. I even eventually came around to Octavarium.

I hear the "Metropolis was their best everything since is garbage" thing all the time and truly don't understand. What they've done since doesn't sound terribly far removed to me. Octavarium was a change, but Systematic Chaos was like Metropolis + 6° to me. Awake/A Change of Seasons and before is what sounds most different to my ears. But hey, a band with 14ish studio albums doesn't have to please everyone all the time . I've liked their material less post-Portnoy but I still like it. They're self-indulgent instrumentally to the point of self parody, but that's kind of exactly the point.

I've seen them live 8 or 9 times (I actually can't keep track at this point, I've gone so often). Yeah, I'm a massive fanboy I guess.


----------



## wat

wankerness said:


> BOLD STATEMENT: When Dream and Day Unite is better than anything post ToT!!!
> 
> BOLD STATEMENT #2: Status Seeker rules!



When Dream and Day Unite is so freaking good


----------



## Sermo Lupi

I could wax poetic about Dream Theater for ages, so I'll limit this post to an idea I had last week. 

I was listening to Martin Miller's Pink Floyd medley recently, and it's really interesting hearing someone who grew up as a huge Petrucci fan interpret David Gilmour's playing, as well as Pink Floyd's music. Although they're an acknowledged influence on Dream Theater, I always feel like the Pink Floyd connection gets overshadowed by comparisons to Rush. Yet it's Pink Floyd that largely influenced the 'atmospheric' element of Dream Theater's music, a characteristic which I feel sets them apart from other progressive metal bands--even today, some ~20+ years after their landmark albums. 

I'm more liberal than most when it comes to defining the 'golden age' of Dream Theater's catalogue; I'd argue it extends as late as Octavarium, with Train of Thought probably being the weakest album of that bunch. In my own opinion, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence and even Falling into Infinity are right up there with the best DT albums. All the albums in that era feel like different facets of the band's exploration of a coherent musical style that they'd deviate from later on. Yet what unites most of those albums is an indebtedness to many classic prog bands--Pink Floyd among them--that gives the music a really timeless feel. I think Dream Theater has at least 3, maybe as many as 6 albums that could be considered all-time greats, worthy of comparison to the best releases from any of the hallmark bands of rock and metal. 

Obviously opinions differ on why Dream Theater deviated from that style...I don't think it can be attributed to any single factor. I'd argue Portnoy was arguably the biggest influence on the 'classic' sound of the band--mostly because he's such an encyclopedia of progressive music and actively plays in prog rock cover groups--but in spite of that, he's often shouldered with the blame for DT's foray into 'edgier' metal starting with Systematic Chaos. Personally, I feel Petrucci contributed as much (or more) to that stylistic shift, since he seemed to be the primary instigator in the band turning from contemporary lyrical themes to fantasy ones, which sort of reoriented the band's entire conceptual focus. But in any case, whatever myriad factors are to blame, I do feel the loss of that classic prog feel is what altered the identity of Dream Theater the most. 

To reel this back in, what pushed me down this Rabbit hole in the first place was Martin Miller's guitar playing in that Pink Floyd medley. It was hard to tell where the Gilmour-isms stopped and the Petrucci-isms began, even though overall I'd say Miller is very faithful to the source material in the covers he does. Really, it's a demonstration that Pink Floyd's greatest hits are only a hair's breadth away from Dream Theater's more tranquil sequences, and with only a few minor changes, you can make one band sound remarkably like the other. I mean, even with a change as simple as putting a 5th in the bass of the extended chord voicings (something Petrucci normally ascribes to an influence from Alex Lifeson), you get some very 'Dream Theater' moments in Pink Floyd's more epic songs. 

There's no particular thesis I'm trying convey here, and I realise it's hardly a new idea. But sometimes when you go back and listen to Dream Theater's influences, you discover the seeds of what made their own music great.


----------



## Flappydoodle

I never really got into them, even though I've listened to a lot of their stuff.

Some of their songs have good elements to them - usually Petrucci's melodic solos. Problem is, it's surrounded on either side by technical wanking, James' grating voice, and the songs just go on for too long and become repetitive. Although it's technically excellent, I just don't find running chromatic scales at 200bpm in unison with the keyboard to be enjoyable to listen to.

And especially live. I've seen them live a couple of times now and James' voice is just shockingly bad. Last time I saw them, it sounded like bad drunken karaoke. When he couldn't hit a note, he would just yell it. For a band with such incredibly talented musicians, who pay such attention to detail of their sound, I have no idea at all why they keep someone who can't even sing in tune. I appreciate he's getting older, had vocal problems etc - but if Petrucci permanently injured a finger, or Mangini lost an arm, they wouldn't be in the band either. So why is a broken singer still there?

In fact, I MUCH prefer this than actually listening to DT themselves. Some of those solos are absolutely incredible.


----------



## BenjaminW

Dream Theater is purely kickass. Saw them at the Fox Theater back in October and I couldn't've asked for a better show! I got hooked on them through Images and Words and Metropolis Pt. 2 about two years ago and they are now in my top 10 favorite bands. These guys rock! Can't wait for the new album next year.


----------



## wankerness

For all the trashing Labrie gets, the vocal melodies are a huge part of what makes the songs good/memorable. I don't know if he comes up with all of them, but I'd bet he is responsible for at least some of it! I really don't hate his voice that much, it always seemed overstated. I mean, compare him to virtually any power metal singer and he's less silly/shrill.

FII used to get made fun of all the time back ~2000 on message boards. As time went on and their albums got more uninspired, that one achieved higher and higher status in their catalog to the point where it's widely considered one of their best. This is all based on message board topics, of course, not science 

And yeah, most people seem to set Octavarium as the cutoff where the rot set in. It seems like most people like Octavarium, I don't! Seems like it's usually Metropolis 2 or Octavarium that's set as the end bracket.

I don't really dislike anything I've heard of their later albums, it just seems so samey and lacks hooks. Besides, IMO, The Astonishing, which is loaded with catchy melodies over the sub-Symphony X guitar chugging and annoying keyboard/guitar unisons that occasionally plague the later albums (Systematic Chaos being the first I noticed that). Not that I've listened to it that much!!

I think Rudess is a huge contributor to their fall, much more so than Portnoy leaving. Mike Portnoy was the primary source of many of their most cringeworthy stuff, like HONOR THY FATHER or the other songs he did in that vein. They tended to have cool guitar riffs, but man, the lyrics!! And his playing was always entertaining, but I really don't think Mangini is any worse on the S/T and The Astonishing. The first album with him was a bit dry in the drums department, but he was probably trying to be conservative.

But Rudess!!!! I know some people say Kevin Moore was boring, but he was a huge part of the atmosphere mentioned in the Pink Floyd post above. He did have the occasional noodly runs like on Caught in a Web, but a lot of it was loud chordal stuff that created moods. Like, the intro to The Mirror is awesome. Or Metropolis Part I, or Learning to Live, etc. If they'd had Rudess when writing them, they'd probably have just been a stream of obnoxious 16th notes, and probably with that blaring siren of a lead patch he likes using oh so much.

The best album with Rudess on it is LTE2, and then Metropolis II, but despite all the fantastic keyboard work on it (pretty much all the natural-sounding piano, Home's sitar stuff, Dance of Eternity), it also immediately established the biggest problems with him. Like, Beyond This Life especially could have been at least 3 minutes shorter and it would have been better for it, especially without some of those damn keyboard noises. He just kept pushing them more into the technical direction and it all started getting too clinical over time.

My favorite keyboard work on any Dream Theater song is the middle section of Trial of Tears. Derek Sherinian ruled. Even though he's kind of lackluster on Once in a Livetime.


----------



## eggy in a bready

james labrie is the worst singer of all time and the petrucci shreds videos are the best thing this band has ever produced. this is coming from a former fan


----------



## p0ke

Oh yeah, I've seen DT live twice too. The first time was the Octavarium tour and the second must've been the Systematic Chaos tour. I totally loved Systematic Chaos when it came out, by the way, I had just gotten my drivers license and that record was in the player for a veeeeery long time. On that tour Symphony X opened for them - their set was super short, but I recall them sounding pretty good. I don't think they had any opener on the Octavarium tour, not sure though.


----------



## Xaios

I'll always love Dream Theater, but I haven't really been big into them since Black Clouds and Silver Linings, which is the last album I particularly enjoyed (haven't listened to The Astonishing, admittedly). Unlike most people, I really quite enjoy Falling Into Infinity (minus "You Not Me" and "Burning My Soul"). Scenes From A Memory, though, will always be the best DT album.


----------



## p0ke

Xaios said:


> I'll always love Dream Theater, but I haven't really been big into them since Black Clouds and Silver Linings, which is the last album I particularly enjoyed (haven't listened to The Astonishing, admittedly).



Same here. Well, I did enjoy their self titled album a fair bit, but nowhere near the same as BC&SL. I listened to The Astonishing when it came out, but it was just so boring somehow, I just couldn't finish listening to it. My favorite DT album is Train of Thought, I like the heavier vibe it has. My favorite song though, is The Glass Prison, which was the first song of theirs I heard. I actually heard it as a Guitar Pro tab first  That was back in the day when MySongBook.com was the place to get tabs, and there was this "highest rated" list where I noticed that tab. The name sounded interesting, so I checked it out, and then I thought "WTF, can this song really be this awesome and long and everything". Then I downloaded the song and that's where my 7-string GAS started.


----------



## thedonal

DT Megathread? I'm in!!

It sounds like I might be in a minority by saying I LOVE Octavarium. And I've had to re-buy the Score DVD as I wore the first copy out. I really like Falling Into Infinity too- except You Not Me- sounds like a bleedin' Bon Jovi song!!

I haven't seen that much activity from the DT Facebook page for some time- are they locked in the studio? Or just touring away?

For me, Images and Words and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are my favourites. Octavarium does get regular rotation. Couldn't get through The Astonishing yet though- only listened to the first half (twice). You know how classic Beatles albums are about 35 minutes long but sound like epics- because their songs are very concise yet contain a lot of content (14 2-3 minute tracks for the most part)- this is what I got from The Astonishing. Because it was lots of shortish songs, the first disc sounds twice as long as it is (and it's a good 70 mins already!!). I'll give it another go at some point.


----------



## Malkav

I also grew up as a huge fan of the band, I basically like most everything Train of Thought backwards, I think things really started going downhill after that.

I think Portnoy got bad for the band because of all the stupid macho yelly stuff and general attempts to be more metal like his barked vocal parts.

I am also in agreement to Rudess being terrible for them though, he's like this friggin looney tunes character who has to add whistles and other stupid shit all the time just to fill in the blanks.

Sherinian is in my opinion the best keyboard player they've ever had and they honestly didn't give him enough of a shot, not only do I think he tends to make better sounds but also Planet X's Quantum is absolutely mind blowing and in my opinion a better album than most of what DT have ever put out (and yes I know it was also largely co-wrote by Donati)  Having Petrucci's tones and phrasing on a record like that would be astounding, that being said I love Garsed a ton too and honestly find myself listening to him, whether it be on Planet X or just his solo stuff, far more often than Petrucci these days.


----------



## thedonal

I think A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater both had some great songs on them, but were a bit patchy and weaker than previous albums.

Breaking All Illusions is a great track. I love Behind The Veil too- that intro!!

I do think that Rudess does go a bit far. His playing is amazing and I'll never touch it on any instrument, but I do think he needs to remember where to leave the spaces sometimes. Portnoy's singing never really bothered me. I still think the change in the band really shows how much of an influence he had.

I very much agree about LaBrie's vocal melodies- they are really important to the songs, though he has become a touch samey on recent albums in this regard...


----------



## bostjan

Sherinian got the short end of the stick. Kevin left the band by his own decision, and they recruited Derek, toured and recorded an EP and one regular album with him. That one regular album was a fan least-favourite, and Derek's parts on it, particularly, took a lot of flack. Rather than work with him, they dropped him like a GE stock portfolio when Ruddess became available. While I do think that Ruddess is an overall better fit for the band than Sherinian, but Kevin Moore obviously was the most "musical" and sensible keyboardist they've had. I think if Sherinian had been reigned in a little bit on some of the more "out there" tones, things would have been much better in the long run. By the way, Planet X is freaking great, too...

It took me a while to come around to appreciating LaBrie's role in the band. _Images and Words_ was a great album, IMO, but the vocals are easily identifiable as the thing that turns away the most listeners. The drums were replaced with cheesy samples, which, especially for the time period, I believe, was a forgivable sin; but Portnoy's creativity was bold and I think most people dig the patterns and fills. The guitar and bass playing were both top notch, and the keyboards, IMO, are just perfect. LaBrie has some moments where he sounds like a rock band vocalist, but, most of the time, he seems to be approaching his role more like he's in a talent contest or a musical. I think he overcorrected that on _Awake_, as the most cringey moments are LaBrie's "tough guy" vocals. After that, he seems to have reached equilibrium, but, even as a longtime fan, I'll be the first to admit that their lyrics aren't always so great. I guess, lucky for me, that I rarely focus on those. 

We've heard LaBrie sing some of Dominici's songs, but I do sometimes wonder if Dominici would have grown into his role more comfortably over time. Chris Collins sounded, well, "interesting" when he was screaming, but the general tone of his voice when singing regular parts just sounded so weird and unnatural. I get the feeling that, early on, they were looking for a singer who sounded like Bruce Dickinson/Rob Halford, and I wonder if they would have been more open minded in just getting a good solid singer, someone like Russell Allen, if they would have attained better mainstream success.

But LaBrie is their singer, sort of the "face" of the band, and I think he does a decent job as such, even if he is controversial.


----------



## bostjan

Say what you will about Dominici, but when LaBrie takes over, the lyrics all turn into mush. Also, LaBrie seems like he is really struggling to try to harmonize with Dominici...
Thoughts?


----------



## prlgmnr

Malkav said:


> I am also in agreement to Rudess being terrible for them though, he's like this friggin looney tunes character who has to add whistles and other stupid shit all the time just to fill in the blanks.


Like we wouldn't all rather listen to this than have to hear LaBrie:



edit: I wonder if we can get him to play Dark Eternal Night on that thing


----------



## wankerness

Malkav said:


> I also grew up as a huge fan of the band, I basically like most everything Train of Thought backwards, I think things really started going downhill after that.
> 
> I think Portnoy got bad for the band because of all the stupid macho yelly stuff and general attempts to be more metal like his barked vocal parts.
> 
> I am also in agreement to Rudess being terrible for them though, he's like this friggin looney tunes character who has to add whistles and other stupid shit all the time just to fill in the blanks.
> 
> Sherinian is in my opinion the best keyboard player they've ever had and they honestly didn't give him enough of a shot, not only do I think he tends to make better sounds but also Planet X's Quantum is absolutely mind blowing and in my opinion a better album than most of what DT have ever put out (and yes I know it was also largely co-wrote by Donati)  Having Petrucci's tones and phrasing on a record like that would be astounding, that being said I love Garsed a ton too and honestly find myself listening to him, whether it be on Planet X or just his solo stuff, far more often than Petrucci these days.



Haha, my friends and I used to make fun of Portnoy's vocals all the time even way back in ~2000. Going HYPOCRITE!!! in a constipated voice was the usual impersonation. We all enjoyed when he basically stops the performance of Fatal Tragedy to sing YOU CAN EAT MY ASS AND BALLS, though, because we were idiot teenagers.

I've never listened to Planet X. Maybe I heard their first album? Sounds like I need to check out Quantum for sure.



prlgmnr said:


> Like we wouldn't all rather listen to this than have to hear LaBrie:
> 
> 
> 
> edit: I wonder if we can get him to play Dark Eternal Night on that thing




I used to have an HD version of that video bookmarked, it made me happy no matter what my mood was.


----------



## Jamey36

I'll start my post by admitting I am a big DT fan and have been seen I first heard "IAW" in the early 90's.The one thing about DT for me is most albums take a few listens to digest.Albums like "Falling into Infinity","6 degrees" and "Octavarium" were to me initially disappointing,but grew on me after a while.The last few releases have not been great to me,but each has had at least a few songs I really dug.
"Lost not Forgotten" is still to this day one of my fave DT songs ever.My fave album is "TOT",I just dig the heavy vibe.
Now with all that said,I just can not get into "The Astonishing" no matter how many times I've listened to it,I tried.The songs seem to be solid but I just can't.There is just something about it I can not put my finger on,that really turns me off!


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Not sure if it got answered, but to the OP question on Nightmare to Remember, I believe they played it on the Iron Maiden tour back in 2010. I could be wrong though.


----------



## groverj3

TheShreddinHand said:


> Not sure if it got answered, but to the OP question on Nightmare to Remember, I believe they played it on the Iron Maiden tour back in 2010. I could be wrong though.



I think I saw them play it live once since Mangini has been in the band. I remember that Portnoy's obnoxious backing vocals were absent through that whole section near the end and it was better without them.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I saw them on the Falling Into Infinity tour with Sherinian, and it was incidentally the final tour Petrucci did with the Ibanez Picasso's. Loved it, I too though, think that LaBrie is the weakest link, Sherinian didn't get near the chance to shine as he does in BCC or SOA. Myung is the must under celebrated member of the band in my opinion.

Highlights from that record for me are "Lines in the Sand" guesting Dug Pinnick, and "Trail of Tears".

I really like Mangini in the short time that he's been in the band. I appreciate his humility, but his bold risk in some areas also. Solid player, humble heart. No pretense.


----------



## scrub

Myung is under-celebrated. I think partly because he is so dang quiet and reserved. Barely any interviews or videos, etc. Just his personality. He is an absolute monster. Deserves much more notoriety.


----------



## Frosty the Snowperson

They are a very good band. Probably one of the best. Maybe they cause some arguments with musicians, but everyone will notice them.


----------



## wat

Falling Into Infinity has grown on me over the years and as I get older I find myself REALLY being able to relate to the lyrics in ways that I didn't when I was younger. 

Actually I find myself relating more to a lot of dreamtheater's lyrics as I get older and especially after my dad died. I'm not really a lyrics person and DT have their fair share of stinkers but they can be pretty real at times.


----------



## StevenC

Awake
Images and Words
A Change of Seasons 
Scenes From a Memory/Falling into Infinity
A Dramatic Turn of Events
When Dream and Day Unite
Everything else

I wish Sherinian was still in the band. Ruddess is great in Liquid Tension Experiment where we're only listening for shreds, but as a song writer I'll have anyone else. I'd love to have Kevin Moore back in the band too, because he wrote all the best songs. Having Ruddess and Petrucci as the principal song writers is a waste of time.

Portnoy was probably right trying to get the band to take a hiatus.


----------



## bostjan

wat said:


> Falling Into Infinity has grown on me over the years and as I get older I find myself REALLY being able to relate to the lyrics in ways that I didn't when I was younger.
> 
> Actually I find myself relating more to a lot of dreamtheater's lyrics as I get older and especially after my dad died. I'm not really a lyrics person and DT have their fair share of stinkers but they can be pretty real at times.



I always liked those gems on _FiI_, but I know what you mean. I think I related more with the whole "I'm struggling with my own internal issues" themes when I was 17-early twenties, and now I relate a lot more to the songs with deeper emotional meanings and stories to tell. Then they have stuff like:



> _In the afterlife
> Will dark be bright?
> Will cold be warm?
> Will the day have no night?
> In the afterlife?
> Will the blind have sight?
> In the afterlife?_



Aside from the lyrics - a great song, but damn...those look like a kid wrote them, honestly.



StevenC said:


> Portnoy was probably right trying to get the band to take a hiatus.



+1

I think if they would have temporarily split up and got involved with some other projects more-or-less-full-time, it would have done their songwriting some good. Oh well.


----------



## TedEH

scrub said:


> Myung is under-celebrated


Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I find Myung is.... pretty much correctly-rated, rather than underrated or overrated. He's good, but hasn't really done anything where I thought "man, that was awesome" or "I wish I could do that" or really contributed a ton to what I value from the songs. He's good, but he's not not exciting to me. Good, in the sense that he delivers what the song needs, but not really much more than that, IMO. He deserves the praise he gets for sure, buuuuuuut meh.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, Myung is correctly rated based on what actually makes it onto any of the records. He doesn't tend to do anything inspiring or step out of the comfort zone of the songs or anything. Obviously he's one of the most technically capable bassists out there, but as far as being inspiring or interesting? Rarely. One of the only times I heard him on something that shoved him front and center was a Gordian Knot album, and he's playing stick there! Speaking of which, his stick playing on New Millennium and (I think?) Take Away My Pain is really, really dull. Even the Dave Matthews guy sounded like he had a better command of the instrument.

Him being placed front and center on bass just doesn't happen on DT records except for the couple of bass solos that just tend to sound like note flailing. SEE: Dance of Eternity.

Another reason WDADU is awesome is that is the only album where the mix accentuates his parts, and he's also doing more fills and harmonics and things like that.


----------



## bostjan

Myung is a monster bass player, don't get me wrong, but he's also one of the least meticulous ones in the band, playing-wise.

Also, I've heard it said a thousand times by a thousand different people that Myung is under-rated. So, basically he's recognized for not being recognized for how good he is, probably more than any other person on Earth. Let that entire notion sink in.


----------



## The Mirror

Guess I have nothing more to do than to simply exist in this thread to show that I quite appreciate this band.

Awake is one of maybe a handful of 10/10s for me.


----------



## bostjan

The Mirror said:


> Guess I have nothing more to do than to simply exist in this thread to show that I quite appreciate this band.





Frosty the Snowperson said:


> They are a very good band. Probably one of the best. Maybe they cause some arguments with musicians, but everyone will notice them.


I guess that's one way to further the discussion :|

Maybe, like, I dunno, what's your favourite song?

"Under a Glass Moon" is my favourite solo (I know I said that already)
"Disappear" is my favourite beautifully depressing song, but "Space-Dye Vest" is a close second.
"The Dance of Eternity" is my favourite instrumental.
"In the Name of God" is also a favourite.


----------



## The Mirror

Dude. Just look at my username and avatar...


----------



## StevenC

The Mirror said:


> Guess I have nothing more to do than to simply exist in this thread to show that I quite appreciate this band.
> 
> Awake is one of maybe a handful of 10/10s for me.


You're the best Dream Theater song


----------



## The Mirror

StevenC said:


> You're the best Dream Theater song



I'll do my best everyday. 

DunDunDun - DunDunDun - DunDunDun


----------



## wat

That is a sexy bass line at 11:23 though. Probably my favorite myung part and one of my favorite bass parts ever too.


----------



## thedonal

This thread made me listen to DT for the first time in a while. I&W, 6:00 and Behind The Veil. Thanks you!

And while I didn't get to it, I reckon Voices is really up there with their best- and one of my favourite JP solos too. I'd love to see this live again (as I did back in the 90s).


----------



## Sephiroth952

Talking about the best DT solos.


----------



## bostjan

The Mirror said:


> I'll do my best everyday.
> 
> DunDunDun - DunDunDun - DunDunDun



Hmm

You forgot to start with "Screetle-teetle." 

And kids nowadays think Gojira is the band that invented that sound.


----------



## Avedas

I first got into DT because my dad had Myung's bass lesson on VHS, despite my dad not even playing bass. I think that was Metropolis II era or so. Growing up on Rush, Lifeson has always been a huge influence on me and Petrucci is right there too. That being said...

Man what the fuck happened to this band. Rudess keyboard shredding is actually probably even worse than Labrie. I've seen DT twice and it seems in the last decade Labrie has managed to regress even more. The Astonishing has some really cool moments, but overall is just so long and cheesy. Maybe Portnoy's most important role was reining in Petrucci's propensity for turning into a cheese factory. I still don't think Mangini is allowed to write anything. I remember seeing a rig rundown type thing with Myung where he was talking about his bass harmonizer pedal, because apparently he does that sometimes. Still never heard it lmao

At least we still have the old stuff.


----------



## groverj3

bostjan said:


> I guess that's one way to further the discussion :|
> 
> Maybe, like, I dunno, what's your favourite song?
> 
> "Under a Glass Moon" is my favourite solo (I know I said that already)
> "Disappear" is my favourite beautifully depressing song, but "Space-Dye Vest" is a close second.
> "The Dance of Eternity" is my favourite instrumental.
> "In the Name of God" is also a favourite.



That's a pretty good list.

In the Presence of Enemies Pt 1. - Favorite overall song (it's what got me into them)
Lines In The Sand - Favorite live solo (though it's close with Hollow Years)
Metropolis Pt 2. - Favorite overall album
Overture 1928 - Favorite Instrumental

I like so much of their stuff though, since I already admitted to being a huge fanboy. It's hard to pick favorites.


----------



## groverj3

LaBrie kind of gets a pass with me for his live vocals. I guess he's never been the same since his food poisoning/vocal chord injury thing.


----------



## Bdtunn

I love dream theatre but have to be in the right mood. However I can put on train of though at any point and enjoy that album!


----------



## Furtive Glance

I love _Lie. _That song grooves so hard and even though I've seen it live twice I'd welcome it every time here on out.


----------



## Lukhas

Octavarium is my favourite album of them; not because any of the songs aside from the title one is among my favourites, but because I feel that as an album listened to start to finish, it has a really nice feel to it, a very good sense of coherence. While there still are some good riffs and tasty licks on albums after that one, I don't care for the album themselves.

I think I generally like their material from WDADU to Octavarium with the exclusion of ToT, which I do not care about at all. I think it's an album that's better live than in the studio, where you can witness the insane musicianship on display, but it marks the beginning of a formula I don't really like about the band: intro-verse-chorus-10minutesofabsolutelyrandomnonsense-verse-chorus-outro. "Falling Into Infinity" is a weird album: it has pretty cheesy lows but really high heights. I also think that the solo on _The Best of Times_ should have never happened.  Aside from the one on _Along for the Ride_, it's probably one of the cheesiest solos I've ever heard from the band. Not unmemorable, but particularly memorable because of that.

I also have a hard time tolerating LaBrie, especially his live performances, but I and by contrast find him rather good on his solo albums. Perhaps about great time that the band starts writing his vocals a good fifth lower, where not only he's comfortable singing but also where he sounds good. It's not Winter Rose era anymore, he can't do it, acknowledge it and move on.

Anyway, there's that tribute band named "Awake" from Romania with a female vocalist that really slays.


----------



## Exchanger

I'll also join the "I love Octavarium" club. Maybe I'm biased because the title track is simply the turning point where I got into prog metal and never turned back ever since. At that time I didn't know any prog metal, but I found Pull Me Under and Metropolis Pt.1 in a bunch of other things a friend had copied for me. As time went, the other "non-prog" songs in there felt too repetitive for me while these 2 tracks started to reveal more and mroe hidden treasures. So I looked Dream Theater up, stumbled upon Octavarium (the track) and was totally blown away. I used to like some classical music back then like symphonies but most of it seemed emotionless or too shifty. Octavarium can be listened as a symphonic work but with an emotional load and an energy that I had never found before.
Then the rest of the album, eventhough some of the songs are a bit too polished has some really good tracks as well with Sacrified Sons, Panick Attack and Never Enough (dat instrumental bridge !)

For me the earlier stuff was hard to get used too because of the production, but there are some real jewels here, no question. As for post-Octavarium stuff, I think Systematic Chaos is really great once you get used to it's density. I'm a sucker for BC&SL, A Nightmare to Remember is a hell of an opening track and full of treasures, + The Best of Times and The Count of Tuscany.
I also find A Dramatic Turn of Events very good, but just too cheesy with the Labrie+ piano song, the ending track is barely saved by the cool keyboard solo, and Bridges in the Sky could have been great if not for this very dull chorus. Lost Not Forgotten and Breaking all Illusions are some of the best DT songs imo and On the Back of Angels is pretty solid too.
The self-titled also has some of that goodness mostly in the instrumental tracks, but somehow doesn't cut it as much and that production was BOTCHED. The guitar sounds terribly weak, the drums like plastic bottles, the bass well it's kinda cool they went or the overdriven sound but...nope. The vocals sound like they've been recorded in a phone booth, too much delay...the only thing that sounds ok is the keyboards, my guess being that a proper keyboard sound is already quite processed and balanced so there wasn't much to fuck-up.
And of course the dreaded Astonishing...some really nice parts on it to be fair, instrumental but also vocals, nice emotional moments...but admittedly a good dose of cringe too. Tried too hard to sound like broadway show and it so cliché..., the story is cheesy AF, and why the hell not having some guest singers to do different characters, maybe even with several roles per singer and a cast of 3 max. would have been much better, just for the sake of knowing when a different character talks. And it's really a shame cause this album COULD have been good, the musicianship on it is great, it's jsut poor artistic choices that ruin it.

Maybe I'll also go against the stream when saying that I like Rudess' contributions. Maybe a bit too wonky sometimes but it can be cool in a way, and overall great sounds, he can really enrich the harmonies and make some great solos. I aprticularly like this one for his appearance in Ayreon :

On the other hand I'm not a fan of Sherinian. He can play, but his sounds are just out of place to me, and he's a bit of a one trick pony to me (of more than one but you get the idea). I tried to stay away form the Sons of Apollo hype but when I ultimately gave it a try, I was really disappointed by his additions, it felt like he was doing the same thing over and over.

When it comes to lyrics, I'll agree tehy're not always great, but since I usually focus on the music itself, and English is not my mother tongue, so if I stopped apying attention I can hear it without really making sense of it so bad lyrics usually don't bother me so much, although good lyrics are an important bonus for whether I appreciate a song or not. And they do have songs with good lyrics, whether part of the concept stories or inspirational messages or more engaged stuff (Prophets of War, the Great Debate...). I've seen poeple bash Honor Thy Father, and yeah the lyrics are a bit too personal/teenage rebellion stuff but if you can ignore that, it's a pretty kickass song with really good use of keyboards in a heavy context (which is what I find more difficult to do with keyboards).

And last but not least, I'm a total sucker for JP. Not because he can shred, not just because he can also make beautiful melodic solos, but he can also write really good riffs that are both catchy and complex, and some of them aren't even that difficult, there is a natural flow to it when you play them, and I value this "smartness" (see the Root of all Evil), also some really good voicings/use of open chords (ok he got that from Lifeson, but still). Anyway, I think he's not just about the flashy shreddy things, but also has a deeper understanding of the instrument and music writing. On top of that he seems to be a really cool and humble dude. Of course there's always the artist and the man, but it's always disappointing to find out a musician you like turns out to be a douche. On the other hand, it feels good when someone is both a great player and a great person.


----------



## bostjan

Lukhas said:


> Anyway, there's that tribute band named "Awake" from Romania with a female vocalist that really slays.




That was really impressive! Someone really needs to get them some better keyboard patches and some octobans, though.

Man, starting right around 10 minutes in, that ~3 minute long instrumental part right after "...goodbye," is just the coolest tightest prog rock, isn't it? At least, I really love it. The hammond patch the keyboard player is using almost took me out of the moment, though.  These guys+gal are monster players, though.


----------



## r33per

My mate introduced me to DT with Falling into Infinity back in the late 90s and I LOVED it. I had never heard anything like it at that point, especially an instrumental like Hell's Kitchen - it was the time sigs. I just hadn't even thought that times like 5/8 and 7/8 could even exist. Mind=blown.

After that I went back and bought the back catalogue, including Live at Marquee. It became very apparent very quickly that FII was a stylistic anomoly... Nonetheless, still love it. Awake - and the follow up ACoS - was the first album that I listened to where I thought "oh: this is how you can use 7-string" - ip to that point (for me and fairly narrow musical horizons), it was either used sparingly (Vai) or to excess (Korn).

Anyways, then came the side-project Liquid Tension Experiment albums and then Scenes From a Memory. I listened to that album for about 2 years straight, just loved it. Saw the full show in Manchester, England (Spocks Beard supporting - awesome). Loved 6DoIT, ToT, Ocavarium - sure, they're not the 10/10 of I&W, Awake and SFaM, but I still liked them. From there, they kind of lost it for me. Systematic Chaos was a poor album, although the show in Glasgow, Scotland was great with Symphony X supporting.

I've seen them three times since then, the last one being the I&W25 tour: seated, like listening to a recital. It sounded really good (they NAILED Hell's Kitchen, so that made the night for me!), but so distant from the feeling I had - still have - listening to those 90s albums cranked up in the car stereo or playing along to Learning to Live. The character of the live show is reflective of the character of the recent albums - high class musicianship; totally sterile. I don't want to do the "I'll never buy another DT album again" but at this point, I've no *desire* to get a new DT album.

They should have taken that hiatus like Portnoy apparently suggested.


----------



## Frosty the Snowperson

I cannot choose a favorite song. If I can choose two, "The Mirror" and "Lie."


----------



## lurè

This is so sad


----------



## TedEH

Why is it sad?

Band makes what they want and ignores feedback = backlash
Band asks what people want and tries to do that = backlash

There is no winning.


----------



## scrub

yeah that isn't sad at all.


----------



## bostjan

lurè said:


> View attachment 61540
> This is so sad





TedEH said:


> Why is it sad?
> 
> Band makes what they want and ignores feedback = backlash
> Band asks what people want and tries to do that = backlash
> 
> There is no winning.


I think people want a band to like the same things they like, and therefore make the album they want to make and also have that album be the album fans want the band to make. When the band drifts away from what the fans want to hear, there is no winning.

I think that when DT makes something that they think fans want to hear, they end up making songs like "You Not Me," which a lot of people didn't like, and when they make whatever they want to make without outside influence, they end up making _The Astonishing_, which fans didn't like.

But really, when you are making your 14th studio album, you are going to either piss off a large portion of your fans by making something bold or you are going to bore half of your fans by making the same old same old. If DT came out with another _Scenes from a Memory_, they'd probably not get the widespread acclaim that people would immediately think. If they released an album of Klesmer music, they'd probably start a riot, but also reach a wider audience through the controversy. If it happened to also be the best damned Klesmer album ever made, they might just gain respect among a branch of listeners they had not yet reached.

But yeah, I think that, by the time you've accomplished what these guys have accomplished, there is not going to be any way to make everyone happy - expectations are soaring super high and, with such a diverse fanbase, people's tastes will always contradict each other.


----------



## scrub

personally, put me in the camp of really admiring a band that has the versatility and musicianship to create music that can fall into that many different categories.


----------



## lurè

To me sounds more like "we want to make a new album but we're afraid It will end up like The Astonishing".
I hugely respect DT even if I'm not a big fan, but attempts like this makes me think how much value you give to your music after so many years.
It's also just a FB post so I'll take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## scrub

they posted it on twitter as well.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I think that LaBrie needs to adapt as Ray Alder did to his diminishing range. Alder no longer sings in that upper range in pathetic attempts to retain what is no longer there. He does indeed sing very well with the range that he has left. LaBrie needs to adapt in this way. When he pushes his range in the upper register, I cringe every time. It's all upper back of the throat/head voice, sounds weak/thin, and dangerous to the vocal chords. I also think that they need to scale back from the 3 hour shows back to 90-120 minutes in order to retain the quality of voice that he has left. Doing _Pull Me Under_ at the 2.75 hr mark is not healthy in my opinion.


----------



## Lukhas

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I think that LaBrie needs to adapt as Ray Alder did to his diminishing range. Alder no longer sings in that upper range in pathetic attempts to retain what is no longer there. He does indeed sing very well with the range that he has left. LaBrie needs to adapt in this way. When he pushes his range in the upper register, I cringe every time. It's all upper back of the throat/head voice, sounds weak/thin, and dangerous to the vocal chords. I also think that they need to scale back from the 3 hour shows back to 90-120 minutes in order to retain the quality of voice that he has left. Doing _Pull Me Under_ at the 2.75 hr mark is not healthy in my opinion.


I thought about that in my previous post, but considering that his voice sounds better on his solo albums, there's a probability that his parts are written that high regardless of what he's able to do (or thinks he's able to do).


lurè said:


> View attachment 61540
> This is so sad


Well they just signed with InsideOut Music (Sony), so hopefully they won't just mail it in like they did with ADToE. Even if I found that the Astonishing was a big bowl of insipid soup, I won't resent them for doing what they truly want and won't expect something that will rock me out of my chair. But for the love of all what's Holy, don't mail it in through obligation.


----------



## groverj3

LaBrie = The Cheese


TedEH said:


> Why is it sad?
> 
> Band makes what they want and ignores feedback = backlash
> Band asks what people want and tries to do that = backlash
> 
> There is no winning.



This is just their management posting something in the name of "fan engagement" and to generate some hype for the album. They're just going to make the album they want to.


----------



## Metropolis

I can't choose between Awake and Metropolis Pt. II, but this thread made me to listen Awake. Also my user name should tell something about my relation to band of this topic


----------



## bostjan

This thread has got me going back and listening a lot to old and "newish" DT, and now I'm even more convinced that Kevin Moore was a better "musician" than Rudess.

Moore usually starts his parts drawn back, using textured chords, then builds his parts up slowly. Rudess has a tendency to go balls-to-the-wall right out of the gate
Both of them have their own unique parts, and both of them quote the other musicians in the band, but Moore's quotes seemed more interwoven, whereas Rudess seems more formulaic.
Rudess does have the technical edge, but a LOT of his playing shows it unabashedly. A lot of Moore's parts are difficult in much more subtle ways, in that they don't stand out as much, tending rather to blend in with the music.
Both are very versatile. Moore, however, is easier to identify by his playing as Kevin Moore. To me, that's a big deal.
Moore wrote some killer lyrics.
Less cheese and fewer bird noises, whistles, and weird shit - when Moore was in the band.

But I still love Rudess's playing and his work with the band. _Scenes from a Memory_ was great due in part to his contributions.


----------



## wankerness

Moore is basically non-existent in sections of songs, I guess that was some peoples' problem with him. 

Best songs:

A Change of Seasons (this is cheating but whatever)
Learning to Live

Everything following is far enough back that I'm comfortable with a two song list!


----------



## PBC

bostjan said:


> I had already heard "Under a Glass Moon," and thought that the song was radical, especially the crazy guitar solo, which, to this day, I still think is perhaps the best guitar solo ever.



I'll challenge:



Might be a close call in terms of the best Prog Metal solo. Side note, while Petrucci is phenomenon it's unfortunate that due to circumstances/timing the likes of Criss Oliva and Charlie DeGarmo ace never mentioned when talking about great Prog guitarists. Their contributions really helped launch the Prog Metal/Rock in the late 80s, early 90s.

Back on topic to not derail the thread:

I've liked almost all their albums. From When Dream and Day till Black Clouds. I listen to A Dramatic Turn but trying to recall anything off it and my mind goes blank. Haven't listened to the self-titled nor Astonishing yet but this thread may make me take a gander. My take on a couple of questions poised here:

I think Derek is the "best" keyboardist but due to timing it would have been interesting to see if they made a new album with him, I really am enjoying the SOA record. I think Rudess is "over-engaged" in his playing. It seems like he can never back off and let some other parts breath, going from hard riffing + keyboard extravaganza to an immediate switch to piano driven soft section isn't the same as building upon other motifs and structures from a more supportive role. 

For better or worse I feel that LaBrie is the best vocalist for Dream Theater. Listening to O3 Part 2 and O3 Part 3 by Dominici, he very much sounds like if Steve Perry fronted Queensryche. By the same token, I don't see the voice of someone like Ray Adler, Russell Allen, or Mike Baker working. I appreciate his vocals but more often than not it doesn't seem like the band really knows how to use him. Take this example from his solo work:



Who knew that Melo Death + LaBrie would work pretty well? I can't help but feel to some degree (maybe 6 degrees) that Dream Theater would have been perfectly fine as instrumental band but for "band/audience viability" they had to have a vocalist. 

I don't know where the Golden Age of Dream Theater ends, it's hard to pinpoint. My issue is that all there albums have a sameness in quality, with the exception of probably I&W and M2 being higher, but slightly. Furthermore, for every album that has it's standout tracks it and others that seem to bog it down. E.g. The Count of Tuscany, but then there's Wither. I find myself getting frustrated listening to many of their songs, so I usually don't listen their albums all the way through anymore. If I may describe a bit further, I feel as if because they are incredible at their instruments, it feels that their is some sort of expectation when it comes to songwriting. For their songs, there is always a nagging feeling that band needs to reinforce that they are prog, almost all the time. Kinda like a super talented athlete continually telling you how great he is. While I don't believe they are egomaniacs, it does seem across that way in their songs. 

I've never gotten that same vibe from another other prog acts: Tad Morose, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Anubis Gate, Redemption, Nevermore, Opeth, Symphony X, Queensrych ect (maybe they keep their hubris low key). Where, the progressive elements are there, they never take precedence of solid, memorable songwriting. Some of the bands have straightforward songs, but they seem fine with it. Sometimes it appears that during the DT songwriting process, it was said "this song is straightforward. So we need to add odd time signature passages". I supposed it worked in their favor since anything prog always includes them as first mention.


----------



## r33per

This thread has made me go back and do a chronological album listen - great fun!

Voices: what a song. That build up to the epic solo is nigh perfect for me.

Interesting observation: three of Awake's tunes are introduced by the bass - Voices, Lifting Shadows and Scarred. (Yes I know there is a chord at the start of Voices and a "ting ti-ti-ting" from Portnoy's ride cymbal at the start of Scarred, but you know what I mean...). I point it out because it's rare enough for them and IMO sounds great.


----------



## wankerness

Voices is one song I was always perplexed by all the love for. It's not bad or anything, but it is one of the dullest songs on their first few albums. Scarred is like, a greatly superior version of the same song!

I had a huge fascination with LSOAD. I loved the interaction with the arpeggios and the delay repeats. I went out and got an effects processor purely to try and recreate that.

Disclaimer: I had never heard U2 at that point


----------



## astrocreep

This thread remoinds me how much I love OSI...


----------



## wat

Speaking of Voices, who else used to think Labrie was singing "FUCK THIS WHORE" instead of "Thought disorder" at 3:26


----------



## r33per

wat said:


> Speaking of Voices, who else used to think Labrie was singing "FUCK THIS WHORE" instead of "Thought disorder" at 3:26



No, but thanks for a lyrical version of "I cannot un-see what I have just seen!"


----------



## prlgmnr

He also says "Buy a pen, I'm a wanker" in Under a Glass Moon


----------



## Avedas

Exchanger said:


> And of course the dreaded Astonishing...some really nice parts on it to be fair, instrumental but also vocals, nice emotional moments...but admittedly a good dose of cringe too. Tried too hard to sound like broadway show and it so cliché..., the story is cheesy AF, and why the hell not having some guest singers to do different characters, maybe even with several roles per singer and a cast of 3 max. would have been much better, just for the sake of knowing when a different character talks


The Astonishing probably would have been better as an Ayreon album.


----------



## groverj3

A classic from the frosted tips Petrucci era:







There's also this underrated song from the goth pants Petrucci era:


----------



## p0ke

I'm sure there's great stuff on The Astonishing, but it's just got waaaay too much content for me to start digging through for something I'd like  Especially since it's super over the top cheesy.

Continuing the keyboard player discussion, I mostly like Rudess's playing but agree that it wouldn't hurt if he toned it back a bit from time to time.


----------



## Avedas

If Rudess dropped the sawtooth lead patch and played his parts more like Metropolis 2 and Six Degrees I'd like him a whole lot more.


----------



## StevenC

Let's not beat around the bush. Dream Theater's problem is Petrucci and Portnoy producing. Get someone in there who can make songs and call them out when they write bloated boring nonsense.


----------



## Exchanger

Avedas said:


> The Astonishing probably would have been better as an Ayreon album.



Hah, probably, although Arjen writes more interesting stories. And he can be cheesy in a fun way (Day 7 : Hope / Come Back to Me), while with DT it's just cringey cheesy.


----------



## Lukhas

StevenC said:


> Let's not beat around the bush. Dream Theater's problem is Petrucci and Portnoy producing. Get someone in there who can make songs and call them out when they write bloated boring nonsense.





StevenC said:


> *and Portnoy*




https://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/12/04/mike-mangini-october-31st-indianapolis-interview/
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mi...ed-role-in-dream-theater-songwriting-process/

Poor Mangini, having such a limited input that some forgot you've been there for seven years already and three records. Not that I'm all that convinced by the Petrucci/Rudess writing duo even though I like Rudess' solo works.


----------



## p0ke

Lukhas said:


> Poor Mangini, having such a limited input that some forgot you've been there for seven years already and three records. Not that I'm all that convinced by the Petrucci/Rudess writing duo even though I like Rudess' solo works.



Hopefully he'll get there. I really enjoyed watching some of the writing documentaries, for example the writing of Train of Thought, where they would basically jam as a full band and then stop for a bit to discuss how the song (Honor Thy Father I think) should progress, then they'd try a few things and then keep jamming forward. It seemed so cool and collaborative between all the guys...


----------



## Lax

Die hard DT fan here since 1999 !
Thought I'm shared between love for the earlier albums, fanatic about golden age (to me) and fan enough of the latter, especially since Mangini.
To me golden age is scenes+six degrees+LTE 1&2

I can't wait to hear the next album, I hope it'll be proggy as hell and will not fall into mainstream things we already hear.
Papa JP do not djent please.


----------



## p0ke

Lax said:


> Papa JP do not djent please.



I'd be fine with a little djent as long as it's not the focus of the album. But yeah, I'm hoping for more stuff like MP's AA-songs. They're all really good, possibly apart from The Shattered Fortress which went a little overboard IMO.


----------



## The Mirror

StevenC said:


> Let's not beat around the bush. Dream Theater's problem is Petrucci and Portnoy producing. Get someone in there who can make songs and call them out when they write bloated boring nonsense.



Shit guys. What year is it?


----------



## StevenC

I meant that Petrucci and Petrucci/Portnoy were the wrong choices for producer.


----------



## Zalbu

Might as well use this thread while it's here, but what are some fairly easy Dream Theater songs to learn on 6 string guitar? I've been looking at Pull Me Under and Overture 1928, minus Petruccis fast solo runs, but they're slightly out of my skill level so I'm looking for something slightly easier than those songs.


----------



## p0ke

Zalbu said:


> Might as well use this thread while it's here, but what are some fairly easy Dream Theater songs to learn on 6 string guitar? I've been looking at Pull Me Under and Overture 1928, minus Petruccis fast solo runs, but they're slightly out of my skill level so I'm looking for something slightly easier than those songs.



The Root of All Evil is pretty easy and fun to play. That said, I pretty much only practiced the main riff  Pretty much all of Train of Thought (apart from This Dying Soul I guess) is on 6 strings in C-tuning, I think, so if you're looking for more metal stuff, that'd be something to look at.


----------



## Avedas

IIRC most of Octavarium and Systematic Chaos are on 6 strings and not too much is crazy hard in there.


----------



## bostjan

Zalbu said:


> Might as well use this thread while it's here, but what are some fairly easy Dream Theater songs to learn on 6 string guitar? I've been looking at Pull Me Under and Overture 1928, minus Petruccis fast solo runs, but they're slightly out of my skill level so I'm looking for something slightly easier than those songs.


The Silent Man almost works around the campfire.
Disappear is pretty easy to play, if you don't mind the unique vibe the song has.
I'd say that the band is notorious for not writing songs that are easy, at all, to play. 99% of their catalogue is more difficult to play on guitar than 99% of what one would hear on the radio.
I mean, I wouldn't call those two songs you mentioned easy to play, really by any standard.


----------



## wankerness

Overture 1928 is easy by DT standards and sounds GREAT. I was never someone that could do solo runs, but I played that song all the time. There was only one bar I had to fudge. I usually played Strange Deja Vu right after it too, that's also really fun and six string friendly.

Home has a lot of cool stuff, but it's got a lot more stuff you'd have to skip. I used to just play the parts of songs that I could and it was fine with me. Scarred is another great one (skipped most of the solo obv) and Silent Man as previously mentioned. Lines in the Sand is also fantastic, and that solo is actually playable (and sounds great).


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> I used to just play the parts of songs that I could and it was fine with me.



Same here. I also used to play Panic Attack a lot back in the day, up to the guitar-keyboard unison parts  That's definitely a 7-string tune though, but fun to play. Played it on drums too back in the day.
Going a bit off the question, but IMO The Glass Prison has lots of fun parts to play too. That was the first DT song I heard and it took me ages to learn the riffs  Lots of good technique exercise too. At one point I had all the actual riffs down, but that still leaves like a typical radio song's worth of wankery to learn  Actually I recall the most difficult riff being the one that's played under the solo


----------



## Exchanger

Zalbu said:


> Might as well use this thread while it's here, but what are some fairly easy Dream Theater songs to learn on 6 string guitar? I've been looking at Pull Me Under and Overture 1928, minus Petruccis fast solo runs, but they're slightly out of my skill level so I'm looking for something slightly easier than those songs.



-Voices is quite doable except for the little runs during the heavy passages
-Forsaken (Standard D)
-Repentance. On this one the solo is also accessible I'd say. 
-Root of All Evil (Standard D#- I love palying this one)
-Sacrified Sons - some parts are a bit hairy (can't do it all 100% myself) but altogether fun to play


----------



## wankerness

Voices is doable, but it's so damn boring! Scarred is very similar but much more interesting IMO.

All of Images and Words is six string, but I never really learned any of it apart from Metropolis, which is MOSTLY doable. There's a big ascending and descending run at some point in the middle, but IIRC the rest of it was all very playable. Strangely, I think it was the easiest song on the album if you count solos. Pull Me Under I think might have been doable, but I don't remember the song very clearly as I never really played it.

Awake was mostly 6 string apart from The Mirror, Lie, and Caught in a Web, if I remember right. And then FII was for all intents and purposes all 6 string besides Just Let Me Breathe and New Millennium (I've seen tabs of Lines in the Sand for 7 string, but it sounds damn near identical if you just don't play the handful of low Ds on the chords in the pre-verse riffs). Metropolis II, I think it was just Dance of Eternity that had 7-string on it??? SDOIT is more of a crapshoot since it had some alternate tunings on it along with a couple seven-string songs on it, and then TOT has so many obnoxious alternate tunings and 7 string songs that it's not worth it unless you love retuning. So yeah, you could just listen to whatever songs you like on the first bunch of albums and if it's not one of the above you're good.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> Voices is doable, but it's so damn boring! Scarred is very similar but much more interesting IMO.



Voices is a moderately difficult song to play. Some of the parts in the second verse riff are finger-pushers (~3 1/2 min in), also the solo. I can see why you might be bored by the song, but it was one of my favourites off the album. There are some changes to learn, but I think fewer than a typical DT song.



wankerness said:


> All of Images and Words is six string, but I never really learned any of it apart from Metropolis, which is MOSTLY doable. There's a big ascending and descending run at some point in the middle, but IIRC the rest of it was all very playable. Strangely, I think it was the easiest song on the album if you count solos. Pull Me Under I think might have been doable, but I don't remember the song very clearly as I never really played it.



Metropolis is a very difficult song to play. I guess if you are able to memorize all of the changes, it's "doable," but, I mean, there are so many changes in the song that I can't even tell you how many there are, and it'd be a very time consuming task to count them. It's especially dense after the 4 minute mark, and then at the 6 minute mark, it steps up another notch in difficulty. I think calling the song "easy" would be a stretch, to say the least. Might as well learn to play "A Change of Seasons," IMO.

Pull me under has some difficult passages in in once you get into it.



wankerness said:


> Awake was mostly 6 string apart from The Mirror, Lie, and Caught in a Web, if I remember right. And then FII was for all intents and purposes all 6 string besides Just Let Me Breathe and New Millennium (I've seen tabs of Lines in the Sand for 7 string, but it sounds damn near identical if you just don't play the handful of low Ds on the chords in the pre-verse riffs). Metropolis II, I think it was just Dance of Eternity that had 7-string on it??? SDOIT is more of a crapshoot since it had some alternate tunings on it along with a couple seven-string songs on it, and then TOT has so many obnoxious alternate tunings and 7 string songs that it's not worth it unless you love retuning. So yeah, you could just listen to whatever songs you like on the first bunch of albums and if it's not one of the above you're good.



Well said. Basically, early early DT is standard 6 string, their late early period is 7 string and 6 string standard with maybe a little drop d here and there, then after that, JP got a warehouse full of differently-tuned EB/MM guitars and every third song was in a different tuning.

EDIT: I fail at quoting multiple passages, evidently. Maybe that's why these songs with hundreds of changes seem so difficult to me.


----------



## Zalbu

bostjan said:


> The Silent Man almost works around the campfire.
> Disappear is pretty easy to play, if you don't mind the unique vibe the song has.
> I'd say that the band is notorious for not writing songs that are easy, at all, to play. 99% of their catalogue is more difficult to play on guitar than 99% of what one would hear on the radio.
> I mean, I wouldn't call those two songs you mentioned easy to play, really by any standard.


I know that DT don't really have any "easy" songs but they offer a good challenge and Petrucci is one of the best guys to learn from, I love the chord voicings he uses for big chords. I would say that Overture 1928 and Pull Me Under are some of DT's easier songs, aside from the fast solo runs, but I'll keep working on them and just skip the impossible parts for now. Root Of All Evil feels pretty doable as well.

I should take out my hardtail and learn some songs from their edgy phase as well. Is Train of Thought played on detuned 6 strings or sevens? I think they used a buttload of different tunings on that one if I remember correctly.


----------



## Exchanger

wankerness said:


> Voices is doable, but it's so damn boring!



Sure it's not the most interesting song, but I'd definitely recommand working on it, just to get familiar with all these juicy open strings chords and voicings


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> Voices is a moderately difficult song to play. Some of the parts in the second verse riff are finger-pushers (~3 1/2 min in), also the solo. I can see why you might be bored by the song, but it was one of my favourites off the album. There are some changes to learn, but I think fewer than a typical DT song.



I really enjoyed playing the crunchy riffs, but not the whole intro or the chorus. Ah well. I'd frequently do playthroughs of much of the album, and I didn't skip that one, so it was fun enough! I usually skipped 6:00 cause the tabs were confusing (despite the main riff being awesome), and same deal with Innocence Faded (the tab had all the lead guitar harmonizing written out so it was really confusing to read the tabs and it had way too few measures on a page). Plus, that one has crummy riffs!



bostjan said:


> Metropolis is a very difficult song to play. I guess if you are able to memorize all of the changes, it's "doable," but, I mean, there are so many changes in the song that I can't even tell you how many there are, and it'd be a very time consuming task to count them. It's especially dense after the 4 minute mark, and then at the 6 minute mark, it steps up another notch in difficulty. I think calling the song "easy" would be a stretch, to say the least. Might as well learn to play "A Change of Seasons," IMO.



I didn't think about it in terms of time changes, I just had the song internalized, I guess. When you look at a tab, especially a text one, you just see a big stream of eighth notes and not how the time changes during them. So, I'd just listen to it while playing along, and thus nothing would jar me besides that section with the crystal clear chords held for odd time intervals. I'd have to think about it to tell you what the time sigs were, that's for sure, but I could still play it rhythmically. If you were trying to learn it from scratch using REAL music you would have a rough go of it!

It was a similar deal with the likes of Strange Deja Vu and Beyond this Life. I had them memorized, so the stream of time changes just never affected me - it was just a whole bunch of eighth notes I had memorized!



bostjan said:


> Pull me under has some difficult passages in in once you get into it.



I do remember some rising unison stuff later in it, but not really how hard it was. As I didn't really like the song, I never really tried.

I vaguely remember trying to play Take the Time once or twice, immediately going F THIS before I got out of the intro, and never trying again. I think it was pretty damn hard.  Learning to Live was always torpedoed by the fact that the tab book is absolutely HORRIBLE, like, it seems like the guy listened to the song once and then tried to recreate the whole thing from memory without cross-referencing it again, and most of the tabs out there were derived from it. There eventually was a pretty good guitar tab on ptabs.net for it, but that was at about the end of my dream theater fandom so I don't clearly remember how hard it was. I really liked playing the first few minutes and that lengthy harmonics outro, I can't really remember what the middle parts were like.



bostjan said:


> Well said. Basically, early early DT is standard 6 string, their late early period is 7 string and 6 string standard with maybe a little drop d here and there, then after that, JP got a warehouse full of differently-tuned EB/MM guitars and every third song was in a different tuning.
> 
> EDIT: I fail at quoting multiple passages, evidently. Maybe that's why these songs with hundreds of changes seem so difficult to me.





As someone who only had a 7 string for most of his formative years, and said 7 string had a floyd rose, ToT wasn't even worth trying. Retuning was the devil!!! It was too bad, too, since I thought a lot of riffs on Honor Thy Father were totally awesome. But C standard? That's in that area where the strings would get too floppy, and I wouldn't want to bother cause I had no other songs I wanted to play in that tuning at all. C standard. Kiss my ass, John Petrucci!!! If it was B standard, I could have just detuned the G and been good to go.


----------



## wankerness

p0ke said:


> Same here. I also used to play Panic Attack a lot back in the day, up to the guitar-keyboard unison parts  That's definitely a 7-string tune though, but fun to play. Played it on drums too back in the day.
> Going a bit off the question, but IMO The Glass Prison has lots of fun parts to play too. That was the first DT song I heard and it took me ages to learn the riffs  Lots of good technique exercise too. At one point I had all the actual riffs down, but that still leaves like a typical radio song's worth of wankery to learn  Actually I recall the most difficult riff being the one that's played under the solo



I used to play The Glass Prison a ton. And yes, the f'in solo riffs are SO hard. Like, I could never even come CLOSE to playing that stuff. I could come close to playing the big section of quintuplets in Erotomania and the intro lead part on the Glass Prison (somewhere around 90% tempo or something for both), but not those solo riffs. The string skipping pattern on that part was BRUTAL.


----------



## bostjan

^ I've come across some versions of DT songs on youtube that were somehow a half step lower... as if someone pitch shifted everything down. I'm not sure why those exist or how to find them, but I know there's at least a version of the Mirror in Bb.


----------



## scrub

For ToT -7 string standard, D-Standard, C-Standard, maybe a E-standard thrown in? Can't recall


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> ^ I've come across some versions of DT songs on youtube that were somehow a half step lower... as if someone pitch shifted everything down. I'm not sure why those exist or how to find them, but I know there's at least a version of the Mirror in Bb.



Sometimes people do that to get around youtube scanning their stuff for copyrighted material. There are a LOT of videos uploaded at like, 1.25 speed for that reason, and the description will say "play at .75 speed!!!" to get it back to normal. 

There are plenty of programs out there that pitch shift stuff, some even well, I just couldn't use them back in the day cause I was playing along with the CDs instead of my computer. IIRC even the ancient program Transcribe! can do it smoothly.


----------



## bostjan

An old PC of mine had a DVD player application that could pitch shift quite well, which was handy in the cover band with whom I was playing at the time, since some songs we performed were a half step off of the recording. I was amazed at how different some singers sounded when pitch shifted a half step.


----------



## groverj3

Avedas said:


> IIRC most of Octavarium and Systematic Chaos are on 6 strings and not too much is crazy hard in there.



In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 1's unisons have been my bane for roughly 10 years .

The earlier one is flight of the bumblebees-esque, and I can only really ever seem to do it at 85% speed max.


----------



## groverj3

For me, the most playable DT songs are:

1. Overture 1928 (only has like one very tricky solo part, and you can sweep it if you're not JP level at crosspicking 1 note per string arpeggios)
2. The Root of All Evil (tapping bit is hit or miss)
3. Forsaken (solo is tricky with a sneaky tapped lick and is never tabbed correctly for timing or actual notes)
4. Pull Me Under

I tend to learn isolated riffs/licks from JP's playing more than full songs though. His note choices often lead to awkward fingerings, IMHO. Especially when he just decides to cram some random number of notes into a run that aren't even triplets or sextuplets.

I've always wanted to play These Walls. It might be the easiest song of theirs to play if it wasn't written on a baritone (or some weird bass-like thing?). I think you could probably play it on a 7-string down one step though. I'm just not about to mess with my tunings when I have mine set up nice. An excuse to buy another guitar if I've ever heard one.


----------



## Bucks

Octavarium for me has one of petrucci's most challenging parts in by far- the unison in never enough.


----------



## groverj3

Enjoy this garbage


----------



## Avedas

groverj3 said:


> Especially when he just decides to cram some random number of notes into a run that aren't even triplets or sextuplets.


That's a good point. There are quite a few sections in DT tabs where you get this random string of septuplets or whatever in a run.


----------



## wankerness

I like the attempt in the tab book to assign a rhythm to the fast part of The Spirit Carries On.


----------



## iamaom

Image won't show, gotta upload it. :\


----------



## wankerness

I forgot that imgur automatically broke all links to this site, or vice-versa. What a pain in the ass. I got too used to other forums!


----------



## groverj3

iamaom said:


> Image won't show, gotta upload it. :\


That is The transcriptional equivalent of throwing your hands in the air and putting your guitar on eBay.


----------



## Avedas

10, 22, 16 lmao who needs metronomes anyway


----------



## r33per

Zalbu said:


> Might as well use this thread while it's here, but what are some fairly easy Dream Theater songs to learn on 6 string guitar? I've been looking at Pull Me Under and Overture 1928, minus Petruccis fast solo runs, but they're slightly out of my skill level so I'm looking for something slightly easier than those songs.


Hell's Kitchen, Lines In The Sand are reasonable. I also like Learning to Live - great fun playing along to the version from Live SFaM.


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> I used to play The Glass Prison a ton. And yes, the f'in solo riffs are SO hard. Like, I could never even come CLOSE to playing that stuff. I could come close to playing the big section of quintuplets in Erotomania and the intro lead part on the Glass Prison (somewhere around 90% tempo or something for both), but not those solo riffs. The string skipping pattern on that part was BRUTAL.



Same thing on Panic Attack, by the way. The solo riff on that is nowhere near as hard as on The Glass Prison, but still easily the hardest riff of the song. Man, I need to play those tunes again someday, I'm getting all nostalgic just thinking about them


----------



## Avedas

I don't have a 7 so I never tried the full song, but I've tried a bunch of the leads in The Glass Prison which does get rather stupid. I still use the alternate picking arpeggios at the beginning as warmup practice years later. Never did get it up to full speed though.


----------



## p0ke

Listening to The Glass Prison now for the first time in like 5 years. Man, I love this song...


----------



## Lukhas

Zalbu said:


> Might as well use this thread while it's here, but what are some fairly easy Dream Theater songs to learn on 6 string guitar? I've been looking at Pull Me Under and Overture 1928, minus Petruccis fast solo runs, but they're slightly out of my skill level so I'm looking for something slightly easier than those songs.


Hollow Years is as easy as it gets. 


groverj3 said:


> Especially when he just decides to cram some random number of notes into a run that aren't even triplets or sextuplets.


He seems (like a lot of guitarists) prefer an even number of notes per string while alternate picking (and switching strings) as they are mechanically more simple than odd number of notes. For pure picking technique, a heavy dose of Cracking the Code is gonna be useful. They have a seven days trial right now.


----------



## chopeth

This is pretty easy for drop A


----------



## fps

prlgmnr said:


> He also says "Buy a pen, I'm a wanker" in Under a Glass Moon


Where?!


----------



## prlgmnr

fps said:


> Where?!


Round about 3 minutes.


----------



## fps

prlgmnr said:


> Round about 3 minutes.


Phenomenal. Thanks for this.


----------



## p0ke

Just listening to Black Clouds and Silver Linings, and remembered how awesome the Count of Tuscany was. I mean, the lyrics are pretty stupid, but the music is great.
I also can't listen to The Best of Times without crying - it's got nothing to do with the music itself, but I read a Mike Portnoy interview back in the day where he said he wrote song for his dad who died just before the album was released, and he actually got to perform the song for him before he passed away. My dad's nowhere near dead, but I always start missing him so damned much when I hear that song (he lives in Australia and I live in Finland so I only see him every 5 years or so).


----------



## scrub

The solo in The Best of Times is pretty epic as well.


----------



## LordCashew

To the guys who are learning the songs from tab:

Are you using the published "authorized" guitar tab books, and if so, are they accurate? Years ago I got a huge, expensive anthology of DT full transcriptions so I could learn the bass parts, and to my dismay many of the bass transcriptions were wildly inaccurate.

I've been thinking of getting some challenging material to sharpen my lead guitar playing, but want to make sure I'm not wasting my time. I don't just want to "learn the notes" so I can play along with the CD. I also really want a glimpse into how a great lead guitarist like Petrucci constructs things, ie their _actual _fingerings, picking patterns, etc. I got an (also expensive) Yngwie Malmsteen book in which not only did the transcriber miss a lot of things, he also tried to shoehorn all the licks into box shapes, which largely defeats the purpose of studying Yngwie's style IMO. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid in purchasing further tabs.

TL;DR what's the verdict on the DT tab books and/or are there alternate sources of accurate DT tabs?


----------



## groverj3

LordIronSpatula said:


> To the guys who are learning the songs from tab:
> 
> Are you using the published "authorized" guitar tab books, and if so, are they accurate? Years ago I got a huge, expensive anthology of DT full transcriptions so I could learn the bass parts, and to my dismay many of the bass transcriptions were wildly inaccurate.
> 
> I've been thinking of getting some challenging material to sharpen my lead guitar playing, but want to make sure I'm not wasting my time. I don't just want to "learn the notes" so I can play along with the CD. I also really want a glimpse into how a great lead guitarist like Petrucci constructs things, ie their _actual _fingerings, picking patterns, etc. I got an (also expensive) Yngwie Malmsteen book in which not only did the transcriber miss a lot of things, he also tried to shoehorn all the licks into box shapes, which largely defeats the purpose of studying Yngwie's style IMO. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid in purchasing further tabs.
> 
> TL;DR what's the verdict on the DT tab books and/or are there alternate sources of accurate DT tabs?



I "acquired" some official tab books for most of their albums. Rhythm stuff has generally seemed pretty close to me. Solos are a crapshoot. Generally I've found them to be better than average for official transcriptions, but every now and then when JP goes into hyperspeed mode they're incorrect. When that happens I either try to find some live footage or give up and try to play the licks with fingerings that make sense to me, and probably are not the way he plays them. I've actually found some pretty good Guitar Pro tabs, but I think for the most part people just copy the official tab books and make small changes when they think it's appropriate.


----------



## bostjan

groverj3 said:


> I "acquired" some official tab books for most of their albums. Rhythm stuff has generally seemed pretty close to me. Solos are a crapshoot. Generally I've found them to be better than average for official transcriptions, but every now and then when JP goes into hyperspeed mode they're incorrect. When that happens I either try to find some live footage or give up and try to play the licks with fingerings that make sense to me, and probably are not the way he plays them. I've actually found some pretty good Guitar Pro tabs, but I think for the most part people just copy the official tab books and make small changes when they think it's appropriate.


Interesting. JP himself made some of the official tabs, and I believe he edited the older books, as well.


----------



## wankerness

He "edited" them, which is COMPLETELY meaningless given how garbage some of them are. I bet the publisher just handed it to him and told him they'd give him money if he skimmed through and put his name on it.

A few of the last books are incredibly accurate. They got this transcriptionist who was the single best guy on Powertabs.net (he went by "Bakerman") to do them - they really make the old ones look like a joke. I think he took over with A Dramatic Turn of Events? Maybe Octavarium.

The collections across multiple albums are lazy garbage - they just reused the tabs from the older tab books. So you end up with excellent tabs of some songs right alongside the trash from the I&W book. It's especially weird with that full band one, where the guitar is the same shitty old tabs, but they did all-new keyboard transcriptions over the top that are probably good, creating dissonance!

My personal opinion is that the Scenes from a Memory book is good and worth buying, the Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence book kind of sucks, Awake and Falling into Infinity are pretty good but suffer from bad layouts, and Images and Words should be avoided at all costs. I inherited the ToT book from my brother, but have never looked at it cause f retuning.

I got the S/T book recently and it's excellent. I also got a recent bass collection that's quite good. Since they didn't have bass tabs when they did those old crummy books, this thing is all done with care.

My opinion with tab books is that it's a different kind of learning. You can't play while turning pages, so it teaches you to focus in on sections and memorize more of it. Plus, it doesn't let you depend on the hobbling of playing along with midi recreations. If you have a trash tab (like many guitar pro tabs) you end up learning it the wrong way cause you're referring to the incorrect midi instead of playing it and realizing it sounds wrong vs the recording. There's a place for both.

EDIT: Speaking of Bakerman, he did a powertab for Acid Rain that's mind-blowing in its accuracy. Anyone that wants to learn that should dig it up. You might have to wade through a ton of terrible tabs, but his is out there and fantastic.


----------



## bostjan

But _Images and Words_ was the book that Petrucci co-wrote.

I don't have the SDoiT book, nor anything more recent.


----------



## Lukhas

bostjan said:


> But _Images and Words_ was the book that Petrucci co-wrote.


Well I have the .pdf under my nose, went to Metropolis... the intro riff is written the way kids play Smoke on the Water in Guitar Centers: with powerchords.


----------



## LordCashew

Well thanks, guys. That was almost exactly what I was hoping _not _to hear... 

Kind of a bummer that JP doesn't personally transcribe everything in detail - it's not like he's famous or busy with anything else. 

I remember when I got that multi album book and jumped right into Under a Glass Moon. Near the very beginning, I was surprised to see an octave-based riff in the bass part. Figured it must have been buried in the mix and listened to check - nope! The bass line was clearly doubling the guitar part, which, incredibly, was accurately transcribed on the staff above. Absolute garbage, seemed like those guys didn't even _try. _The fact that they came up with some extraneous part that isn't even remotely in the song just blew my mind. I was pretty pissed and gave up on the whole thing pretty quickly. 

I spent something like $50 on that book and that was a lot of money to me at the time. What's the point if the book's so wrong I can get there more quickly by ear?


----------



## groverj3

LordIronSpatula said:


> Well thanks, guys. That was almost exactly what I was hoping _not _to hear...
> 
> Kind of a bummer that JP doesn't personally transcribe everything in detail - it's not like he's famous or busy with anything else.
> 
> I remember when I got that multi album book and jumped right into Under a Glass Moon. Near the very beginning, I was surprised to see an octave-based riff in the bass part. Figured it must have been buried in the mix and listened to check - nope! The bass line was clearly doubling the guitar part, which, incredibly, was accurately transcribed on the staff above. Absolute garbage, seemed like those guys didn't even _try. _The fact that they came up with some extraneous part that isn't even remotely in the song just blew my mind. I was pretty pissed and gave up on the whole thing pretty quickly.
> 
> I spent something like $50 on that book and that was a lot of money to me at the time. What's the point if the book's so wrong I can get there more quickly by ear?



I will say, I think the book for Systematic Chaos is pretty good, as is A Dramatic Turn of Events. I agree with the others though, that the earlier stuff is generally about as bad as any other "official" transcription.

IMHO, a lot can be learned from JP's live playing. Particularly the G3 DVD he's on, and the Liquid Tension Experiment live thing. They aren't Dream Theater, per se, but the camera focuses more on him than a DT show, where it pans all over the place. If you're trying to see the little motifs that he favors, etc.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> But _Images and Words_ was the book that Petrucci co-wrote.



Says who, just the cover? There's NO way he co-wrote that. A lot of it is blatantly inaccurate to anyone with ears. As the guy above said, just look at the first chords of Metropolis!! I even bought a Japanese import book of the full score in a desperate attempt to have a tab book that was marginally accurate (it was just as bad in different ways, unfortunately, but I managed to resell it for some ridiculous amount on ebay). I ended up just playing off good text tabs on the net. THere used to be some repository of DT tabs on their main fansite. There was quite a good one of Metropolis that I used to learn it after the tab book failed so hard. The tab books were good for all subsequent albums, besides SDOIT, where the title track had a vastly superior tab online before the tab book even came out.

A lot of tab books were awful back then. I dunno why. I have some Metallica/Megadeth ones from back then that are also quite questionable. Maybe it was just cause the ability to slow down/loop small sections of songs was so much more limited before the mid to late 90s.

Looking into these things, it looks like Bakerman took over the main tabbing duties with Octavarium. Author list copy-pasted from elsewhere:

Images and Words: involved with John Petrucci
Awake: edited by John Petrucci
Falling Into Infinity: by three other guys
Scenes from a Memory: edited and verified by John Petrucci
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: by some other person, but not verified by Petrucci and has errors
Train of Thought: by some other person, but not verified by Petrucci and has errors
Octavarium: by Jordan Baker (bakerman) and Ryan Maziarz of Progressive Transcriptions
John Petrucci's Suspended Animation: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz
Systematic Chaos: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz (also verified by John Petrucci)
Black Clouds & Silver Linings: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz (verified by Petrucci)
A Dramatic Turn of Events: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz (verified by Petrucci)

So yeah...Any songs done by Jordan Baker I can guarantee are incredibly accurate.


----------



## groverj3

Anyone else here a fan of Troy Grady's Cracking the Code stuff? I've found it to be the first in-depth dissection of picking mechanics which actually make sense to me.

There was a thread on his forums detailing JP's picking technique, and what kinds of pick slanting he uses. I doubt he's going to end up on Troy's YouTube channel any time soon, but what do you guys think?

In his picking, I mostly see runs that have to be played with downward pickslanting. With the odd passage that could either be crosspicked or two-way pickslanted. I'm a default upward pickslanter due to practicing lots of 3 note-per-string stuff and only using downward pickslanting in the context of two way pickslanting and find his note-groupings hard to deal with due to that (I think). The Glass Prison intro solo can either be played crosspicked (like Martin Miller does, and how JP used to) or with sweeping (which is how JP played it more recently).

JP also uses more elbow now than he used to. I think this is simply a result of not keeping up with practice using the wrist-only method and his manbear muscles.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

wankerness said:


> Looking into these things, it looks like Bakerman took over the main tabbing duties with Octavarium. Author list copy-pasted from elsewhere:
> 
> Images and Words: involved with John Petrucci
> Awake: edited by John Petrucci
> Falling Into Infinity: by three other guys
> Scenes from a Memory: edited and verified by John Petrucci
> Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: by some other person, but not verified by Petrucci and has errors
> Train of Thought: by some other person, but not verified by Petrucci and has errors
> Octavarium: by Jordan Baker (bakerman) and Ryan Maziarz of Progressive Transcriptions
> John Petrucci's Suspended Animation: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz
> Systematic Chaos: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz (also verified by John Petrucci)
> Black Clouds & Silver Linings: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz (verified by Petrucci)
> A Dramatic Turn of Events: by Jordan Baker and Ryan Maziarz (verified by Petrucci)
> 
> So yeah...Any songs done by Jordan Baker I can guarantee are incredibly accurate.



I feel like you might be underselling Ryan Maziarz role in this, but I can't speak much to that myself. I just knew your first claim about Baker taking over since ADTOE couldn't be correct because Petrucci has been mentioning these two "crazy tab guys" in his interviews since at least Systematic Chaos, if not earlier. He never went into much detail in any of those (print) interviews that I can recall, but the impression I got was that Baker and Maziarz passed off the print proofs for Petrucci to review/approve, and that he made corrections where necessary to prepare them for publication. So it was Petrucci's opinion that practically everything was correct in those books, with the knowledge that he'd edited them himself. Now, you could be right that he was more interested in being obliging or appreciative rather than 100% correct, but either way, he put his endorsement behind the product in the end. Thus it's not like it was the band's manager signing off on this stuff without any further review, ala Iron Maiden or whatever. An endorsement means a lot more coming from Petrucci. 

As a sidenote, most DT stuff is run by fans. The guy who did all the cartoons for Octavarium was the same guy who designed (and ran) the official DT website and forums. I thought that he was involved a lot with the Astonishing as well, which might explain why some of that artwork was...questionable...but perhaps the scope of the project was outside of his wheelhouse. Even in the 'old days', Portnoy was very receptive to the idea of a Bootleg culture and even encouraged it to some degree. His library of DT recordings (not all his own) is absolutely massive.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Sermo Lupi said:


> As a sidenote, most DT stuff is run by fans.



Make that "used to be." I was looking for more info on that old web/graphic designer and sadly didn't discover much. Portnoy left all of the credits for his own website archived in his FAQ, but DT has since switched over to a social media company that manages a bunch of bands, so I couldn't find the relevant credits as quickly. I guess they swapped over in 2017.

I did find this making-of video about The Astonishing's stage show, though. Mind you, I thought the concept behind the stage show was cool, and I enjoyed it live, but boy oh boy did those guys muck it up with the Deviant Art-quality artwork. So I take back anything I said about the old webdesigner being responsible for any of this. Having looked at it again for the first time in ages, I wouldn't want to put that burden on anyone


----------



## Furtive Glance

The _Train of Thought _tab book is one of the worst tab books I've ever seen (and owned). Honor Thy Father is so laughably incorrect it defies belief.

The other ones listed above are really good, though. No complaints with _Octavarium_ through _ADToE_ for me.


----------



## LordCashew

groverj3 said:


> I will say, I think the book for Systematic Chaos is pretty good, as is A Dramatic Turn of Events. I agree with the others though, that the earlier stuff is generally about as bad as any other "official" transcription.





Furtive Glance said:


> No complaints with _Octavarium_ through _ADToE_ for me.



Cool, all of the albums I'm not particularly inspired by. Classic. 

I may just have to dig into some of the newer stuff and pick something to learn that seems worthwhile from an educational standpoint. Not that I _hate _the newer stuff by any means. I was just hoping I could get the musicianship gains while studying material that's meant a lot to me since I was a teenager.




groverj3 said:


> IMHO, a lot can be learned from JP's live playing. Particularly the G3 DVD he's on, and the Liquid Tension Experiment live thing. They aren't Dream Theater, per se, but the camera focuses more on him than a DT show, where it pans all over the place. If you're trying to see the little motifs that he favors, etc.



I'll definitely look into that. Thanks!

And thanks to everyone who chimed in - you may have saved me some (more) money!


----------



## Lukhas

groverj3 said:


> Anyone else here a fan of Troy Grady's Cracking the Code stuff? I've found it to be the first in-depth dissection of picking mechanics which actually make sense to me.


I am, I definitively am.


groverj3 said:


> I doubt he's going to end up on Troy's YouTube channel any time soon, but what do you guys think?


That if you meet John Petrucci, tell him to answer Troy's mails already. 


groverj3 said:


> JP also uses more elbow now than he used to. I think this is simply a result of not keeping up with practice using the wrist-only method and his manbear muscles.


Past certain speeds, the power you're able to generate with your arm in combination with other movements are useful. Batio does it, Cooley does it, John Taylor (milehighshred) even put a video on how he does it.


So it's not bad to use the arm. Just don't get injured.


----------



## Avedas

Figuring out a comfortable way to use the forearm without putting tension on it was one of the key steps for accurate speed picking for me.


----------



## wankerness

LordIronSpatula said:


> Cool, all of the albums I'm not particularly inspired by. Classic.
> 
> I may just have to dig into some of the newer stuff and pick something to learn that seems worthwhile from an educational standpoint. Not that I _hate _the newer stuff by any means. I was just hoping I could get the musicianship gains while studying material that's meant a lot to me since I was a teenager.



I don't know what albums you were hoping for, but I would recommend the Metropolis II tab book without any hesitation at all. I used the Awake and FII ones plenty without noticing anything bad other than a handful of typos, too. It's really just I&W, SDOIT (it's not TERRIBLE, it's just inferior to some tabs out there), and ToT (apparently) that should be avoided.


----------



## Furtive Glance

The SDOIT tab book credits "John Rudess" on every song. Good times.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

wankerness said:


> I don't know what albums you were hoping for, but I would recommend the Metropolis II tab book without any hesitation at all. I used the Awake and FII ones plenty without noticing anything bad other than a handful of typos, too. It's really just I&W, SDOIT (it's not TERRIBLE, it's just inferior to some tabs out there), and ToT (apparently) that should be avoided.



Agree with this!


----------



## LordCashew

wankerness said:


> I don't know what albums you were hoping for, but I would recommend the Metropolis II tab book without any hesitation at all. I used the Awake and FII ones plenty without noticing anything bad other than a handful of typos, too. It's really just I&W, SDOIT (it's not TERRIBLE, it's just inferior to some tabs out there), and ToT (apparently) that should be avoided.



Oh, cool! Awake and I&W would have been ideal, but I quite like SFAM as well. At least, other than "carnival noises" keyboard solo in Beyond This Life that turned out to be a bit of a harbinger...  But the guitar solo in that song is wicked, along with quite a few others on the album.

I'm OK with a few typos on the level of "write in a correction" but not "this entire measure/run is inaccurate and I now need to figure it out for myself by slowing down the recording or watching videos because the paid transcriptionist couldn't be arsed to."

Again, thanks for the input.


----------



## Avedas

LordIronSpatula said:


> At least, other than "carnival noises" keyboard solo in Beyond This Life that turned out to be a bit of a harbinger...


Rudess' default mode.


----------



## wankerness

I always think of Beyond This Life as being one that I hate just cause of the endless solos and that intro riff being boring and repeated for what seems for hours in various permutations, but there are some other really fun riffs in it. If they'd chopped it down to about 5 minutes it would be a great song! That's another thing playing out of a tab book is good for, learning the few good pages of a song that's about 40


----------



## The Mirror

Actually I quite love Beyond this Life. 

It is like a progressive Grunge song and where have you ever heard that?

Also that first Solo is quite crazy for its use of same notes on different strings. JP is basically shredding the shit out of his guitar while only playing like 3 different notes per pattern.


----------



## wankerness

The Mirror said:


> Actually I quite love Beyond this Life.
> 
> It is like a progressive Grunge song and where have you ever heard that?
> 
> Also that first Solo is quite crazy for its use of same notes on different strings. JP is basically shredding the shit out of his guitar while only playing like 3 different notes per pattern.



Right, I wouldn't cut THAT out. I'd cut out the whole middle jam section, most especially the idiotic trumpety and chinese sounding keyboard sections. And it's those first verses I find somewhat tedious. But, yeah, when I actually go back and listen to it I tend to like it. Besides the keyboard solos.


----------



## groverj3

The Mirror said:


> Actually I quite love Beyond this Life.
> 
> It is like a progressive Grunge song and where have you ever heard that?
> 
> Also that first Solo is quite crazy for its use of same notes on different strings. JP is basically shredding the shit out of his guitar while only playing like 3 different notes per pattern.



I'll go one step further and say I like the extended jam session version from Live at Budokan. It's good noodly nonsense!


----------



## Avedas

Live improv is fun to listen to and watch. Random improv sounding noodling on a recorded and produced track is nothing I want to listen to.


----------



## groverj3

Avedas said:


> Live improv is fun to listen to and watch. Random improv sounding noodling on a recorded and produced track is nothing I want to listen to.


I highly doubt much of that was actually improvised. Several times there have been parts I saw live which seemed like little jam sessions, only to be revealed as completely composed and intentional when I buy the live blu-ray where they play it exactly the same way


----------



## Lax

Wow, as the owner of every of those tab books I never wondered if they were accurate XD
On the other hand only the fact that the good notes were shown interested me...


----------



## The Mirror

wankerness said:


> Besides the keyboard solos.



Without getting the debate too much up again. It was always quite hard for me to like Rudess' keyboard solos. 

Frankly, I learned to not even recognize them anymore and kind of cut them out while hearing a DT song. 

Well, except for shit like Rite of Passage. That keyboard solo is an abomination and probably falls under some paragraph on human rights abuse in the Geneva Convention.


----------



## fps

Of COURSE this has become a discussion about tab books, not the actual band.


----------



## iamaom

I have no where else to say this:
Do the lyrics to On the Backs of Angels piss anyone else off? It really seems like they had a hat of generic movie trailer phrases and the lyrics were written by pulling them out one by one. They have no context to one another except sounding like something a 12 year old girl in hot topic would find deep. I think they might be the band's worst lyrics out of their entire repertoire.


----------



## The Mirror

iamaom said:


> I have no where else to say this:
> Do the lyrics to On the Backs of Angels piss anyone else off? It really seems like they had a hat of generic movie trailer phrases and the lyrics were written by pulling them out one by one. They have no context to one another except sounding like something a 12 year old girl in hot topic would find deep. I think they might be the band's worst lyrics out of their entire repertoire.



Congratz on describing the entirety of The Astonishing.


----------



## Avedas

People just don't have the time for music anymore.


The Astonishing was still more bearable than Steven Wilson's anti-iPod tirades.


----------



## r33per

And yet, for all of the ... flaws? I can't think of a better word this morning ... that are being written up here (and i agree with most of them), I still love this band. I get more of a kick out of their music than pretty much anything else. Obvious, Redundant Statement: I wouldn't be the guitarist, the musician that I am today were it not for DT.

Perhaps its like some older gear that was becoming a bit unreliable, dusting it off and cranking it up brings back sweet memories and you remember why you never got rid of it in the first place.


----------



## wankerness

Avedas said:


> People just don't have the time for music anymore.
> 
> 
> The Astonishing was still more bearable than Steven Wilson's anti-iPod tirades.



When I started listening to metal back in high school, I VERY quickly gained a skill for ignoring lyrics. I couldn't tell you at all what 95% of the music of any genre I've ever listened to was about, lyrically. I just listen to the sound of the vocals and the melodies, and intentionally let the lyrics go in one ear and out the other!! Only especially bad phrases stick out in my ears. Once in a while I realize lyrics are good and then I switch off my filter and pay attention. But that almost never happens with metal, and most definitely doesn't with Dream Theater. I did go through Metropolis 2 a few times in high school so I knew what the story was about, but I did re-flip that switch when I got older and now can ignore all of them and love the songs for the great songwriting/melodies/solos/riffs/etc.

Steven Wilson's managed to break that filter with his exquisite badness on a few songs. Like the one about how he hated waiting for her email, or the one that dropped the word Xbox, or the one that had MTV repeatedly in the chorus of the middle section, etc. But, I'm completely able to tune out his lyrics on everything post-PT, so maybe he's improving? Or my filter is improving!


----------



## StevenC

Come on guys, Beyond this life is like the... 8th best song on SFAM. Hmm, that's a really good album.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

wankerness said:


> When I started listening to metal back in high school, I VERY quickly gained a skill for ignoring lyrics. I couldn't tell you at all what 95% of the music of any genre I've ever listened to was about, lyrically. I just listen to the sound of the vocals and the melodies, and intentionally let the lyrics go in one ear and out the other!! Only especially bad phrases stick out in my ears. Once in a while I realize lyrics are good and then I switch off my filter and pay attention. But that almost never happens with metal, and most definitely doesn't with Dream Theater. I did go through Metropolis 2 a few times in high school so I knew what the story was about, but I did re-flip that switch when I got older and now can ignore all of them and love the songs for the great songwriting/melodies/solos/riffs/etc.



Same here to a tee.


----------



## wankerness

StevenC said:


> Come on guys, Beyond this life is like the... 8th best song on SFAM. Hmm, that's a really good album.



So it's the second worst song, disregarding the transition tracks? What do you like less? :O I like it more than Finally Free, I think, just cause that one goes on WAYYYY too long as well, and has less interesting riffs. But, it has some really great parts, too.


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> So it's the second worst song, disregarding the transition tracks? What do you like less? :O I like it more than Finally Free, I think, just cause that one goes on WAYYYY too long as well, and has less interesting riffs. But, it has some really great parts, too.


Never really liked Home.


----------



## Avedas

wankerness said:


> When I started listening to metal back in high school, I VERY quickly gained a skill for ignoring lyrics. I couldn't tell you at all what 95% of the music of any genre I've ever listened to was about, lyrically. I just listen to the sound of the vocals and the melodies, and intentionally let the lyrics go in one ear and out the other!! Only especially bad phrases stick out in my ears. Once in a while I realize lyrics are good and then I switch off my filter and pay attention. But that almost never happens with metal, and most definitely doesn't with Dream Theater. I did go through Metropolis 2 a few times in high school so I knew what the story was about, but I did re-flip that switch when I got older and now can ignore all of them and love the songs for the great songwriting/melodies/solos/riffs/etc.
> 
> Steven Wilson's managed to break that filter with his exquisite badness on a few songs. Like the one about how he hated waiting for her email, or the one that dropped the word Xbox, or the one that had MTV repeatedly in the chorus of the middle section, etc. But, I'm completely able to tune out his lyrics on everything post-PT, so maybe he's improving? Or my filter is improving!


I'm the same way. I only listen to lyrics when I'm listening to hip hop. Vocals are basically just another instrument to me.


Also who decided the audio of a sex scene was a good idea in Home?


----------



## wankerness

StevenC said:


> Never really liked Home.



Huh. I always really liked it, even if the radio edit kind of highlights its strengths better. It is the most fun one to play riffwise. Maybe. I can't really decide between it and Overture/Strange Deja Vu.


----------



## groverj3

wankerness said:


> Huh. I always really liked it, even if the radio edit kind of highlights its strengths better. It is the most fun one to play riffwise. Maybe. I can't really decide between it and Overture/Strange Deja Vu.


They're all a lot of fun. Overture is my pick though.



Already posted in the youtube covers thread but it's relevant here as well. All this DT talk inspired me to sit down and actually record something for the first time in ages.


----------



## wankerness

Home also was the song that inspired me to buy a Wah pedal. Every time I have one handy, I will play that slithery first heavy riff. SO COOL!


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> Huh. I always really liked it, even if the radio edit kind of highlights its strengths better. It is the most fun one to play riffwise. Maybe. I can't really decide between it and Overture/Strange Deja Vu.



I like Home, but it's kind of awkward for me when the voice actors start banging each other halfway through the song. It's like 9/10, then it suddenly turns into a porno, then it's instantly a 3/10.


----------



## wankerness

I can't remember that. AT ALL. I guess I've really forced it out of my mind. I do remember Labrie making horrible, horrible moaning sounds on the live CD.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> I can't remember that. AT ALL. I guess I've really forced it out of my mind. I do remember Labrie making horrible, horrible moaning sounds on the live CD.



Roughly 8 minutes in, up until the keyboard solo. You might not notice it, but once you do, you cannot un-notice it - Bunch of coital moans and grunts. I guess, at least, I should be happy there's no sloppy noise or bed springs creaking overdubbed into it as well.


----------



## bostjan

My theory is that the bigger Petrucci's biceps get, the shittier LaBrie's voice gets as a result.


----------



## Avedas

bostjan said:


> My theory is that the bigger Petrucci's biceps get, the shittier LaBrie's voice gets as a result.



Oh dear. 20+ years will really fuck you up though. I was considering going to that Tokyo show right at the end but decided I didn't feel like spending $120 on it.


----------



## groverj3

bostjan said:


> My theory is that the bigger Petrucci's biceps get, the shittier LaBrie's voice gets as a result.



Yikes. Some of that is pretty rough. Those early clips though show you exactly why he got hired.

As much touring as they do, and not being as young as they used to be play into it of course.

I'll add that I saw them near the beginning of a tour and near the end, and the earlier performances were much better vocally. I actually think he improved a bit in the mid 00s, but has been worse more recently. I do often wonder how much more DT has in the tank in general though. If they weren't so prolific I'd think they'd really only have another album or two in them, but it's not really their style to take breaks for any reason.


----------



## Avedas

groverj3 said:


> Yikes. Some of that is pretty rough. Those early clips though show you exactly why he got hired.
> 
> As much touring as they do, and not being as young as they used to be play into it of course.
> 
> I'll add that I saw them near the beginning of a tour and near the end, and the earlier performances were much better vocally. I actually think he improved a bit in the mid 00s, but has been worse more recently. I do often wonder how much more DT has in the tank in general though. If they weren't so prolific I'd think they'd really only have another album or two in them, but it's not really their style to take breaks for any reason.


Jordan is the only one who's getting kind of old so I imagine they could keep going for quite a while.


----------



## groverj3

Avedas said:


> Jordan is the only one who's getting kind of old so I imagine they could keep going for quite a while.


Maybe it only seems like they're old because they put out an album every two years like clockwork so their back catalog is massive


----------



## bostjan

I think a great deal of it is the fact that LaBrie is not singing rock vocals, but some pretty extremely ranged stuff, and having to do it loud enough to compete with a rock/metal band. Imagine how Mariah Carey would sound if she had been singing with a metal band all this time, rather than doing R&B to a backing track.

That being said, and all due respect to LaBrie, since he is an incredible musician, I really don't expect that he's got many more miles left on him before he either quits or gets pressured out. I could totally see the band replacing him and carrying on. Before Portnoy left, I would have opposed the idea, but at this point, I don't see how the band has any respect to lose in doing so.


----------



## Lax

I wonder how would be his voice if it hadn't be destroyed by poison food around awake :s


----------



## groverj3

bostjan said:


> I think a great deal of it is the fact that LaBrie is not singing rock vocals, but some pretty extremely ranged stuff, and having to do it loud enough to compete with a rock/metal band. Imagine how Mariah Carey would sound if she had been singing with a metal band all this time, rather than doing R&B to a backing track.
> 
> That being said, and all due respect to LaBrie, since he is an incredible musician, I really don't expect that he's got many more miles left on him before he either quits or gets pressured out. I could totally see the band replacing him and carrying on. Before Portnoy left, I would have opposed the idea, but at this point, I don't see how the band has any respect to lose in doing so.



I think whether or not they replace him at some point has a lot to do with how many more albums the band has left in them. I was watching some analysis of LaBrie's singing by a vocal coach on youtube last night who basically said that LaBrie is probably lucky to have another 5 years of even attempting to pull off his vocal style, and it's unlikely that he'll ever be as good as he used to be, even with some training to retain what he has left. They may have to tune some songs down a bit, too. If the band only puts out 2 or so more albums I could see him limping to the finish line and then calling it a day.

I also think it would be possible for him to stick to more narrow range which isn't as challenging for him on future albums and rework some melodic lines from their older stuff to get some more longevity. Usually, when he sticks to his natural range he still does a pretty good job. The demands of the style usually don't allow him to do that. Petrucci probably writes most of the vocal melodies, and it would make more sense for the singer to do so to keep it within his remaining range.



Lax said:


> I wonder how would be his voice if it hadn't be destroyed by poison food around awake :s



I'm sure that factors in, but I don't know if it's the whole story. It certainly didn't help that he toured while in serious distress during that era, but I've read and seen some analysis which basically said he had terrible technique (though early in his career made it work anyway because he's very talented). Being very tense and forcing his voice to be very loud/raspy at the extremes of his range. Combined with a touring schedule which has been frankly insane it should come as no surprise that he's had so much dropoff in terms of his abilities at the age of 55. Even without the food poisoning/vocal cord rupture stuff he'd probably still have these issues at this age.


----------



## bostjan

groverj3 said:


> I think whether or not they replace him at some point has a lot to do with how many more albums the band has left in them. I was watching some analysis of LaBrie's singing by a vocal coach on youtube last night who basically said that LaBrie is probably lucky to have another 5 years of even attempting to pull off his vocal style, and it's unlikely that he'll ever be as good as he used to be, even with some training to retain what he has left. They may have to tune some songs down a bit, too. If the band only puts out 2 or so more albums I could see him limping to the finish line and then calling it a day.
> 
> I also think it would be possible for him to stick to more narrow range which isn't as challenging for him on future albums and rework some melodic lines from their older stuff to get some more longevity. Usually, when he sticks to his natural range he still does a pretty good job. The demands of the style usually don't allow him to do that. Petrucci probably writes most of the vocal melodies, and it would make more sense for the singer to do so to keep it within his remaining range.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that factors in, but I don't know if it's the whole story. It certainly didn't help that he toured while in serious distress during that era, but I've read and seen some analysis which basically said he had terrible technique (though early in his career made it work anyway because he's very talented). Being very tense and forcing his voice to be very loud/raspy at the extremes of his range. Combined with a touring schedule which has been frankly insane it should come as no surprise that he's had so much dropoff in terms of his abilities at the age of 55.



I think that DT is in a sort of mechanical mode now - they have been since _Images and Words_, and it's why Portnoy left. 5 years from now seems like a long time, and a lot can change in 5 years, but it doesn't sound like LaBrie is going to be able to tour as long as the rest of the guys. 'Truch is going strong still, and will probably still be playing well above the level of the average professional musician 5 years from now. Also, I don't see him writing simplified vocal arrangements, but I guess we'll see.

I don't think that the band will kick LaBrie out, either. I get the feeling like he'd be more likely to quit. As I said, he's a monster musician, so I'm sure he's well aware how much he's struggling. At some point, he's going to have to consider hanging up the gloves, and frankly, it'd be better for him to retire from DT with dignity than to end up falling apart on tour.

Eventually, the band is going to have to slow down touring, unless they replace everyone with young guys, or something halfway silly like that. I mean, other bands have done it before. GWAR toured with zero original members. Of course, they wore costumes, but what about Canned Heat, Ratt, Napalm Death, In Flames, or Thin Lizzy? They all toured without any original members, too.

Anyway, I hate that everyone is getting old. I think LaBrie could still tour, covering the DT songs that are easier for him to handle, and people would still go see him. DT could tour with some young LaBrie sound-alike, which I'm sure there is one somewhere in the dark depths of a nightclub somewhere.

I mean, I did a 10 second youtube search and found this guy with ~100 views, and he sounds closer to 1990's LaBrie than 2010's LaBrie:


I'm certain there'd be someone out there who could fit close enough (in the sort of way that Mangini is "close enough").


----------



## scrub

Yeah we've seen huge bands tour with some young singer no one had heard of. Journey and Queen come to mind.


----------



## bostjan

scrub said:


> Yeah we've seen huge bands tour with some young singer no one had heard of. Journey and Queen come to mind.


Deep Purple picked up a completely unknown kid after Ian Gillian quit the band when it was at its peak. That unknown kid's name: David Coverdale.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> I mean, I did a 10 second youtube search and found this guy with ~100 views, and he sounds closer to 1990's LaBrie than 2010's LaBrie



That guy sounds super nasally to me. I'm sure you've seen the Dream Theater split screen covers by VRA; I think Will Shaw does a better job of covering LaBrie, though I wouldn't say he sounds very much like him. 



I'm not sure that LaBrie will ever be pushed out of the band. When the Portnoy shenanigans happened, one of the details that came out of it was that the band wanted to stick together 'as a family', more or less. I think it was Petrucci that said Dream Theater had become larger than just the music, it was about supporting each other, providing for wives and kids, and maintaining a certain lifestyle that they've come to expect while also producing music as a 'group of friends,' not just bandmates. 

I do agree that LaBrie's vocals aren't what they used to be, though. And yet, despite that, he still pushes his range on the recent albums. Haven't listened to the self-titled record in ages, but I remember it being especially shriek-y. So he seems to soldier on undeterred, and it's not like the band ever really seemed to care what fans think of him. 

That said, I sometimes I feel like I'm one of the few people who liked LaBrie in the first place  His vocals on Awake are incredible. As prog metal singers go, I prefer Russell Allen overall, (and like many DT/Symphony X fans, I wonder what that combo might be like in an alternate universe), but LaBrie in his prime was nothing short of world-class.


----------



## wankerness

Back in my fandom days I always heard people going "James Labrie is so annoying, listen to Russell Allen for how a prog singer should sound!!!!" But, then, I'd listen to something like Inferno, and he sounds like a chicken being strangled. Ugh. My first impressions of him were with Divine Wings of Tragedy, and unfortunately the vocal part that stood out the most to me and my friends was "PHAROAH'S CURSE UPON YOU!!!" which immediately sent us into hysterics. 

Agreed that Labrie is pretty fantastic on Awake. Innocence Faded has him going into Mariah Carey soprano-land, and he even nails that! It just sounds kind of silly.

James Labrie does sound quite bad compared to one guy, though! Daniel Gildenlow on TPE1/Remedy Lane blows everyone male ever off the map, besides maybe Jeff Buckley.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

A chicken being strangled? What kind of farms have you been on?


----------



## wankerness

I'm from Wisconsin, I hear chickens being strangled all the time!


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> I'm not sure that LaBrie will ever be pushed out of the band. When the Portnoy shenanigans happened, one of the details that came out of it was that the band wanted to stick together 'as a family', more or less. I think it was Petrucci that said Dream Theater had become larger than just the music, it was about supporting each other, providing for wives and kids, and maintaining a certain lifestyle that they've come to expect while also producing music as a 'group of friends,' not just bandmates.


Kind of an anti-point, since they fired him.
Also, if I was in LaBrie's shoes, I would probably consider quitting. He has one job in the band, and it's not so much that he does a bad job as it is that he's just struggling so hard to not sound like complete shit; there's no way that can be good for him.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> Kind of an anti-point, since they fired him.
> Also, if I was in LaBrie's shoes, I would probably consider quitting. He has one job in the band, and it's not so much that he does a bad job as it is that he's just struggling so hard to not sound like complete shit; there's no way that can be good for him.



Source? Because every first-hand account I've read/watched said that Portnoy quit and later tried to rejoin, only to be warded off by a lawyer. They otherwise wouldn't have had the authority to 'fire' Portnoy. It was only after all attempts at reconciliation failed, and Mike forced himself out of Dream Theater, that he was given the cold shoulder. And even then, I'm not really sure how 'cold' it was--I suspect some members (probably LaBrie, but who knows) were more vocal than others about not letting him rejoin if he wasn't 100% committed to the band, and as soon as you get new drummers involved and are asking them to sign contracts, quit jobs, and so on, you can't just drop them like a bad habit to embrace an old friend for the sake of it. It's a complicated situation; I don't think you're correct in thinking 'they fired one guy, why not another?' 

As for LaBrie's abilities, we really don't know what he thinks of his own singing, or his feelings about quitting the band 'for the sake of the fans'. People have been bitching about his decline for years, and neither he nor the rest of the band seem to care. I reckon he's the type to stick it out for as long as possible. For all we know, he's looking at guys like Dio and thinking, 'yeah, I can sing late into my 60s, no problem'. 

Whether or not he _should _do that is a different conversation.


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> Source? Because every first-hand account I've read/watched said that Portnoy quit and later tried to rejoin, only to be warded off by a lawyer. They otherwise wouldn't have had the authority to 'fire' Portnoy. It was only after all attempts at reconciliation failed, and Mike forced himself out of Dream Theater, that he was given the cold shoulder. And even then, I'm not really sure how 'cold' it was--I suspect some members (probably LaBrie, but who knows) were more vocal than others about not letting him rejoin if he wasn't 100% committed to the band, and as soon as you get new drummers involved and are asking them to sign contracts, quit jobs, and so on, you can't just drop them like a bad habit to embrace an old friend for the sake of it. It's a complicated situation; I don't think you're correct in thinking 'they fired one guy, why not another?'



He wanted (demanded) to take a break from touring. The band told him they were going on tour with or without him, so he said, "fine, I'm leaving." I guess "firing" is not the most accurate word, but I think it suffices as close as one word can suffice to describe the situation. If they were this "family unit" looking out for each other, then there's no way it would have went down that way.

Not to mention that they dropped Derek Sherinian like a kid running from the police drops a bag of drugs, as soon as Jordan said he wanted in. Also, they already fired two singers. It's not like "they fired one guy, why not another?" It's more like "they have fired plenty of people in the past, so the argument that they are a family and therefore would never fire anyone, is bullshit."



Sermo Lupi said:


> As for LaBrie's abilities, we really don't know what he thinks of his own singing, or his feelings about quitting the band 'for the sake of the fans'. People have been bitching about his decline for years, and neither he nor the rest of the band seem to care. I reckon he's the type to stick it out for as long as possible. For all we know, he's looking at guys like Dio and thinking, 'yeah, I can sing late into my 60s, no problem'.



I thought it was clear that I was only speculating on behalf of LaBrie. 



Sermo Lupi said:


> Whether or not he _should _do that is a different conversation.



Weird, I thought that was the conversation we were having.


----------



## StevenC

Do Dream Theater still play Learning to Live?


----------



## thesnowdog

https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dream-theater-bd6a102.html?song=Learning+to+Live


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> He wanted (demanded) to take a break from touring. The band told him they were going on tour with or without him, so he said, "fine, I'm leaving." I guess "firing" is not the most accurate word, but I think it suffices as close as one word can suffice to describe the situation.



Yeah, that's definitely not a firing 



bostjan said:


> If they were this "family unit" looking out for each other, then there's no way it would have went down that way.



Says who? This isn't banning your friend from the treehouse, you can't just reverse a decision like that on a moment's notice. Look at it this way: as far as Dream Theater were concerned at the time, it was either the band hangs up the mitts for who knows how long, or Portnoy goes his own way (on his own accord, making it his choice) and everyone gets what they want. So they opted for the latter. I have no doubt it was a bittersweet parting for most of them. You can still view the band as a 'family' and have a member quit. 



bostjan said:


> Not to mention that they dropped Derek Sherinian like a kid running from the police drops a bag of drugs, as soon as Jordan said he wanted in. Also, they already fired two singers. It's not like "they fired one guy, why not another?" It's more like "they have fired plenty of people in the past, so the argument that they are a family and therefore would never fire anyone, is bullshit."



Right, but not all members are equal. LaBrie is as close as it gets to being a founding member without actually being one. He's been with the band for over 25 years, and Dream Theater has been wholly invested in his voice from day one. By contrast, Derek Sherinian was only with the band for 1.5 albums, and was always a 'second fiddle' replacement for Kevin Moore. They wanted Rudess, but he went to play with the Dixie Dregs instead, so when the opportunity to work together came up again, they got rid of Sherinian. I love Derek's playing and Falling Into Infinity is one of my favourite albums, but his role in DT was this awkward middleground between 'hired gun' and 'compromise so the band doesn't break up'.



bostjan said:


> Weird, I thought that was the conversation we were having.



Not really. Last several posts have been speculating whether LaBrie will quit the band and/or how long he'll last. That's different than saying he _should _quit for his own good. I realise the angle you were going for in your last post, but prior to that, you were saying he probably only has 5 years left before he quits. That's the part I doubt, but I do agree that his job is only getting harder for him as the years go on.

Funnily enough, when I saw DT on The Astonishing Tour, LaBrie sounded really good. I was at the very first show, so maybe I caught them when his vocal chords were still fresh, but he sounded great singing new material. When I saw them again on Images and Words 25, he still sounded fine, but he was definitely struggling a bit at points. Plus the band had to tune down a step to accommodate his lost range, I believe.

Obviously these aren't two unrelated problems: in any other band, a vocalist might get away with only being able to sing the new stuff and only 1 or 2 old songs for the tour. But I don't see DT giving up their touring format any time soon, and that requires LaBrie to have a solid grasp of a huge portion of the back catalogue. Some of it can be rearranged, maybe, but there's bits of LaBrie's singing (e.g. the rising melody on Learning to Live) that are as iconic to DT fans as Bruce Dickinson's vocal lines are to Maiden fans. Difficult spot to be in, honestly.


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> Yeah, that's definitely not a firing



So, if you requested sick leave from your job and they told you either come to work or you're being replaced, you wouldn't describe that as being "fired?"



Sermo Lupi said:


> Says who? This isn't banning your friend from the treehouse, you can't just reverse a decision like that on a moment's notice. Look at it this way: as far as Dream Theater were concerned at the time, it was either the band hangs up the mitts for who knows how long, or Portnoy goes his own way (on his own accord, making it his choice) and everyone gets what they want. So they opted for the latter. I have no doubt it was a bittersweet parting for most of them. You can still view the band as a 'family' and have a member quit.



Says me, obviously. Look, if you wanted to go on your yearly vacation to wherever, and someone in your family said that they didn't want to go, what family would reasonably respond with "okay, then you're permanently out of the family?"



Sermo Lupi said:


> Right, but not all members are equal. LaBrie is as close as it gets to being a founding member without actually being one. He's been with the band for over 25 years, and Dream Theater has been wholly invested in his voice from day one. By contrast, Derek Sherinian was only with the band for 1.5 albums, and was always a 'second fiddle' replacement for Kevin Moore. They wanted Rudess, but he went to play with the Dixie Dregs instead, so when the opportunity to work together came up again, they got rid of Sherinian. I love Derek's playing and Falling Into Infinity is one of my favourite albums, but his role in DT was this awkward middleground between 'hired gun' and 'compromise so the band doesn't break up'.



This doesn't seem to address my point that the band has routinely fired people before in the past.

Yeah, Sherinian was only there for two major releases, but that's because he was fired. Kevin was only around for three major releases. That's only one more major release.  The main difference is that Moore quit and Sherinian was fired.



Sermo Lupi said:


> Not really. Last several posts have been speculating whether LaBrie will quit the band and/or how long he'll last. That's different than saying he _should _quit for his own good. I realise the angle you were going for in your last post, but prior to that, you were saying he probably only has 5 years left before he quits. That's the part I doubt, but I do agree that his job is only getting harder for him as the years go on.





bostjan said:


> but it doesn't sound like LaBrie is going to be able to tour as long as the rest of the guys.





bostjan said:


> I don't think that the band will kick LaBrie out, either. I get the feeling like he'd be more likely to quit. As I said, he's a monster musician, so I'm sure he's well aware how much he's struggling. At some point, he's going to have to consider hanging up the gloves, and frankly, it'd be better for him to retire from DT with dignity than to end up falling apart on tour.



Splitting hairs, maybe? What he'd be more likely to do versus what he should do. We could argue about that, or we could argue about "might" or "may."



Sermo Lupi said:


> Funnily enough, when I saw DT on The Astonishing Tour, LaBrie sounded really good. I was at the very first show, so maybe I caught them when his vocal chords were still fresh, but he sounded great singing new material. When I saw them again on Images and Words 25, he still sounded fine, but he was definitely struggling a bit at points. Plus the band had to tune down a step to accommodate his lost range, I believe.
> 
> Obviously these aren't two unrelated problems: in any other band, a vocalist might get away with only being able to sing the new stuff and only 1 or 2 old songs for the tour. But I don't see DT giving up their touring format any time soon, and that requires LaBrie to have a solid grasp of a huge portion of the back catalogue. Some of it can be rearranged, maybe, but there's bits of LaBrie's singing (e.g. the rising melody on Learning to Live) that are as iconic to DT fans as Bruce Dickinson's vocal lines are to Maiden fans. Difficult spot to be in, honestly.



Iron Maiden was a band that hired Bruce Dickinson as a replacement for the singer they fired. Dickinson later left the band and was replaced by Blaze Bayley. DT fired Dominici and replaced him with LaBrie, and now we're talking about the hypothetical situation where LaBrie quits and is replaced by someone else, and yet you bring up Iron Maiden as an example to support the point that LaBrie cannot be replaced.

IDK, I'm honestly way off in speculation territory here. All I'm saying is what is possible and what I can see likely happening as a result of trends that have been going on the last several years. LaBrie might quit and DT might break up as a result, proving me wrong entirely. Or, LaBrie might be touring 5 years from now with them still, which I never said wouldn't happen, just that it'd be in LaBrie's best interest, and probably DT's best interest, if he quit before that point. Maybe we'll see, maybe we won't see. Who knows?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> So, if you requested sick leave from your job and they told you either come to work or you're being replaced, you wouldn't describe that as being "fired?"



I believe the term was 'indefinite hiatus'. Different connotation than taking a few weeks off work.





bostjan said:


> Says me, obviously. Look, if you wanted to go on your yearly vacation to wherever, and someone in your family said that they didn't want to go, what family would reasonably respond with "okay, then you're permanently out of the family?"



That's not how families work. Mom and the kids go on the vacation, Dad stays home. I guess if the issue is serious enough (e.g. Dad wants to uproot the family to move them to the middle of nowhere for a few years), the parents consider a divorce. Yet plenty of people go through 'bittersweet divorces', not everyone hates their soon-to-be ex-spouse.

Anyway, are we really taking things this literally? 





bostjan said:


> This doesn't seem to address my point that the band has routinely fired people before in the past.
> 
> Yeah, Sherinian was only there for two major releases, but that's because he was fired. Kevin was only around for three major releases. That's only one more major release.  The main difference is that Moore quit and Sherinian was fired.



It absolutely addresses what you said by pointing out the context of the firing. Would Sherinian have ever been hired if Moore didn't quit? Probably not. Would he ever have been hired if Rudess accepted the first time? Probably not. So it's a completely different scenario, you're comparing apples to oranges.

LaBrie is the singer that the band wanted after Charlie. When fans started the hate on him, even during the Portnoy years, LaBrie is still who the band wanted. We have no reason to speculate he'll be fired based on past lineup changes in the band (and especially not now, 25 years after he joined!)




bostjan said:


> Splitting hairs, maybe? What he'd be more likely to do versus what he should do. We could argue about that, or we could argue about "might" or "may."



I don't really see the point of discussing this part further. 'James will quit in 5 years, just listen to his voice' is not the same as saying 'James sounds terrible, I wish he'd quit for his own good'



bostjan said:


> Iron Maiden was a band that hired Bruce Dickinson as a replacement for the singer they fired. Dickinson later left the band and was replaced by Blaze Bayley. DT fired Dominici and replaced him with LaBrie, and now we're talking about the hypothetical situation where LaBrie quits and is replaced by someone else, and yet you bring up Iron Maiden as an example to support the point that LaBrie cannot be replaced.



Woah, hold on, that's one hell of a strawman. I can't name-drop Dickinson as being 'iconic' without you bringing all that baggage into the comparison? Come on. I was simply saying that LaBrie _rearranging his parts for himself _would be difficult because people expect them to be sung a certain way, NOT that LaBrie can't be replaced because his parts are hard to sing. On second thought, I think you just misinterpreted what I wrote. 




bostjan said:


> IDK, I'm honestly way off in speculation territory here. All I'm saying is what is possible and what I can see likely happening as a result of trends that have been going on the last several years. LaBrie might quit and DT might break up as a result, proving me wrong entirely. Or, LaBrie might be touring 5 years from now with them still, which I never said wouldn't happen, just that it'd be in LaBrie's best interest, and probably DT's best interest, if he quit before that point. Maybe we'll see, maybe we won't see. Who knows?



And you're entitled to an opinion. All I ever said is that I don't see it happening, and I stated my reasons. That's largely my own opinion.


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> I believe the term was 'indefinite hiatus'. Different connotation than taking a few weeks off work.



According to Portnoy, he wanted 2010 off from touring. ( http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mi...-got-to-be-on-stage-with-dream-theater-again/ )



Sermo Lupi said:


> That's not how families work. Mom and the kids go on the vacation, Dad stays home. I guess if the issue is serious enough (e.g. Dad wants to uproot the family to move them to the middle of nowhere for a few years), the parents consider a divorce. Yet plenty of people go through 'bittersweet divorces', not everyone hates their soon-to-be ex-spouse.
> 
> Anyway, are we really taking things this literally?



I don't follow that analogy. Again, Portnoy wanted some time off from the band, and he was pressured out as a result. I simply don't parse that with "the band wanting to stick together 'as a family.'"



Sermo Lupi said:


> It absolutely addresses what you said by pointing out the context of the firing. Would Sherinian have ever been hired if Moore didn't quit? Probably not. Would he ever have been hired if Rudess accepted the first time? Probably not. So it's a completely different scenario, you're comparing apples to oranges.



Naw, dude, in the context of the band behaving like a family that doesn't accept kicking people out, it's totally apples to apples. I mean, the more we talk about it, the more shitty it seems to me that they fired Sherinian.



Sermo Lupi said:


> LaBrie is the singer that the band wanted after Charlie. When fans started the hate on him, even during the Portnoy years, LaBrie is still who the band wanted. We have no reason to speculate he'll be fired based on past lineup changes in the band (and especially not now, 25 years after he joined!)



There's a rumour that Geoff Tate was the singer they really wanted. Should they fire LaBrie and get Tate instead? [/sarcasm]




Sermo Lupi said:


> I don't really see the point of discussing this part further. 'James will quit in 5 years, just listen to his voice' is not the same as saying 'James sounds terrible, I wish he'd quit for his own good'



Ok, now you're flat out misquoting me or confusing me with another user.



Sermo Lupi said:


> Woah, hold on, that's one hell of a strawman. I can't name-drop Dickinson as being 'iconic' without you bringing all that baggage into the comparison? Come on. I was simply saying that LaBrie _rearranging his parts for himself _would be difficult because people expect them to be sung a certain way, NOT that LaBrie can't be replaced because his parts are hard to sing. On second thought, I think you just misinterpreted what I wrote.
> 
> And you're entitled to an opinion. All I ever said is that I don't see it happening, and I stated my reasons. That's largely my own opinion.



Did I take that too far? You must admit, though, that example you gave was ironically parallel to what I was saying.

I guess I really don't have anything to say about your opinion, but your reasons I can talk about all day. For me, the disagreement stems from the statement about how LaBrie would never be pressured to leave because DT is like a big happy family, when they've already fired two singers, a keyboardist, in my interpretation, a drummer.


----------



## Zalbu

I wonder if Dream Theater will pull a Metallica and start tuning half a step lower live. But yeah, like what was previously mentioned, your voice only gets that shot like LaBries has been if you use improper technique and/or don't take care of it properly. Compare it to a band like Maiden, they played here in Sweden just yesterday and Bruce who's 60 in two months sounds half his age.

And yes, I know Maiden doesn't come close to the technicality of the vocals that Dream Theater have.


----------



## groverj3

Sermo Lupi said:


> ...I don't see DT giving up their touring format any time soon, and that requires LaBrie to have a solid grasp of a huge portion of the back catalogue...


Not necessarily, they've already simplified their live shows. They used to rotate songs in and out of the setlists for each city on a tour. They no longer do this, and the last few tours have been exactly the same setlist every night.


----------



## groverj3

Sermo Lupi said:


> Funnily enough, when I saw DT on The Astonishing Tour, LaBrie sounded really good. I was at the very first show, so maybe I caught them when his vocal chords were still fresh, but he sounded great singing new material. When I saw them again on Images and Words 25, he still sounded fine, but he was definitely struggling a bit at points. Plus the band had to tune down a step to accommodate his lost range, I believe.


I've also seen him at different points in the tour and he's definitely sharper early on. With their insane touring schedule though, it only makes sense.

I think if they allow him some more input into vocal lines and use his remaining range rather than what he used to be able to do in 1992, as well as rework some vocal stuff in older songs, he could keep going for a good while. Maybe as long as the band keeps going. It may not be as technically impressive but it depends on whether the band really wants anyone else in there. If not they'll likely try to make it work. Sure, DT has replaced members before, but aside from Portnoy, which was a complicated situation, not for a long time. It's not like they're a "revolving door of musicians" sort of band. Replacing Derek was to get someone who they wanted in the first place and who wasn't a founding member after Moore quit even earlier. Dominici was fired very very early in their careers.


----------



## groverj3

Regardless of this talk about LaBrie's live perfomances and his possible future with the band, I'm still interested to hear what DT14 is going to sound like. After the ridiculous cheese-fest that was The Astonishing I feel like we're going to get something more similar to Systematic Chaos or A Dramatic Turn of Events. I doubt we'll get a long instrumental, and probably no concept-stuff. Pure speculation though.

Granted, I didn't hate The Astonishing. It's just my least favorite album of theirs. There are still some good songs on there, even if they're fewer and further between than usual. Particularly, Moment of Betrayal, The Path That Divides, and Our New World are solid. It was fun to see it all performed live.


----------



## wat

Zalbu said:


> I wonder if Dream Theater will pull a Metallica and start tuning half a step lower live.



They are tuning down a whole step now. Really doesn't sound very good, unfortunately.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> I guess I really don't have anything to say about your opinion, but your reasons I can talk about all day. For me, the disagreement stems from the statement about how LaBrie would never be pressured to leave because DT is like a big happy family, when they've already fired two singers, a keyboardist, in my interpretation, a drummer.



I feel like you're either being purposefully obtuse, or we have very different interpretations of how those past 'firings' can affect this situation. At the heart of it, you're comparing two singers that were with DT in their 'garageband' days, along with a keyboardist that was a compromise replacement, to a drummer/band leader who left of his own volition, in order to build a theory about the hypothetical firing of a vocalist who's been with the band 25 years. It's like arguing some bloke will divorce his wife any day now because he broke up with a girlfriend at 14 for having 'cooties'. Context matters when it comes to this stuff. 

Anyway, we're retreading ground here. No hard feelings, I'd just rather have this thread go somewhere else. 



groverj3 said:


> Not necessarily, they've already simplified their live shows. They used to rotate songs in and out of the setlists for each city on a tour. They no longer do this, and the last few tours have been exactly the same setlist every night.



Yeah, I knew that, but hadn't thought about it from LaBrie's perspective. The rotating setlists disappeared with Portnoy, who (not coincidentally) devised them for every tour. But I don't doubt that LaBrie prefers the new format. The band could have continued doing it the old way if they really wanted to. 



groverj3 said:


> I've also seen him at different points in the tour and he's definitely sharper early on. With their insane touring schedule though, it only makes sense.
> 
> I think if they allow him some more input into vocal lines and use his remaining range rather than what he used to be able to do in 1992, as well as rework some vocal stuff in older songs, he could keep going for a good while. Maybe as long as the band keeps going. It may not be as technically impressive but it depends on whether the band really wants anyone else in there. If not they'll likely try to make it work. Sure, DT has replaced members before, but aside from Portnoy, which was a complicated situation, not for a long time. It's not like they're a "revolving door of musicians" sort of band. Replacing Derek was to get someone who they wanted in the first place and who wasn't a founding member after Moore quit even earlier. Dominici was fired very very early in their careers.



Yeah, exactly. The other vocalist was Steve Stone, who "was fired following a single, ill-fated live performance. According to Mike Portnoy, Stone moved around the stage in a rather odd manner, seemingly doing a bad impression of Bruce Dickinson. Additionally, he shouted "Scream for me Long Beach!" several times throughout the show, although they were actually performing in Bayshore." That's not exactly equivalent to shattering a lineup that's mostly remained unchanged for 25 years 

Regarding the writing: apparently James is largely responsible for his own vocal melodies. Maybe that just means he sits down with the songwriter and tweaks what's there...because Portnoy also claims to write scratch vocal melodies as part of his songwriting process, and I believe Petrucci does as well. But there's plenty of examples where what's being sung sounds so 'LaBrie' to me that I can't help but think he came up with it himself. For example, there's that one verse in Illumination Theory, around about 11:50 in this video: 



Pretty over-the-top, right? LaBrie also really hams it up live and embellishes a lot of vocal melodies. So I tend to think he's ambitious with his own abilities, arguably to the point of overconfidence. Rather than being DT's whipping boy (albeit he is that, to some degree), I think part of the 'problem' is that he simply likes to sing that way.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

groverj3 said:


> Regardless of this talk about LaBrie's live perfomances and his possible future with the band, I'm still interested to hear what DT14 is going to sound like. After the ridiculous cheese-fest that was The Astonishing I feel like we're going to get something more similar to Systematic Chaos or A Dramatic Turn of Events. I doubt we'll get a long instrumental, and probably no concept-stuff. Pure speculation though.
> 
> Granted, I didn't hate The Astonishing. It's just my least favorite album of theirs. There are still some good songs on there, even if they're fewer and further between than usual. Particularly, Moment of Betrayal, The Path That Divides, and Our New World are solid. It was fun to see it all performed live.



Since we're changing gears: I wonder if Mangini will finally get any input in the songwriting? He's been pretty vocal about being more or less a 'session guy' since he joined, and the Astonishing was probably the least collaborative album the band's ever done, with Petrucci writing nearly all of it with some input from Rudess along the way. 

Also, what do you guys figure the plan is with anniversary tours going forward? Awake is nearly as iconic as Images and Words, and the 25th anniversary for that is next year. But that'd conflict the the touring for this upcoming album, I think, so maybe they'll just do a one-off show on the album's release date like they used to. They'll probably do a tour for the 25th anniversary tour for Scenes from a Memory though, surely?


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> I feel like you're either being purposefully obtuse, or we have very different interpretations of how those past 'firings' can affect this situation. At the heart of it, you're comparing two singers that were with DT in their 'garageband' days, along with a keyboardist that was a compromise replacement, to a drummer/band leader who left of his own volition, *in order to build a theory about the hypothetical firing of a vocalist who's been with the band 25 years*. It's like arguing some bloke will divorce his wife any day now because he broke up with a girlfriend at 14 for having 'cooties'. Context matters when it comes to this stuff.
> 
> Anyway, we're retreading ground here. No hard feelings, I'd just rather have this thread go somewhere else.


Ok, I'm only responding because you think I'm being "purposely obtuse..."

Go back and actually read what I've said, because I never said any of that. You were asserting that he wouldn't possibly be fired because the band is like a family. I never said they were going to fire him, only that your reasoning was bonkers. Much earlier in the thread, I suggested that LaBrie might consider retiring once his voice is completely blown out, in response to another person who laid out the five year plan.
And Dominici was fired after their first major release. Before him they had other vocalists during their garage days. And I already posted the link explaining how Portnoy left the band, which I'm assuming you didn't bother to read, since your still stuck on the idea that he just quit out of the blue. 
I never said it was a revolving door, but you can't go around saying that they would never fire anyone in the band when they've already fired four people full stop.
To get to your analogy, it's like a guy telling me his buddy would never get a divorce, when he's already been divorced four times, then the guy explaining that the first wife was 25 years ago, the second was shortly after that, and wouldn't keep a toned figure for him, the third was a rebound wife, and the fourth divorce was 8 years ago and was "complicated." I'm not going to say he's definitely going to get a divorce, but that line of reasoning just isn't going to make sense to me, you know?
...or just go on misquoting me and insulting me and putting words in my mouth, and then say your done talking to me or whatever.


----------



## groverj3

Sermo Lupi said:


> Since we're changing gears: I wonder if Mangini will finally get any input in the songwriting? He's been pretty vocal about being more or less a 'session guy' since he joined, and the Astonishing was probably the least collaborative album the band's ever done, with Petrucci writing nearly all of it with some input from Rudess along the way.



I would like to see some more input from Mangini, but I have no idea what that would sound like . He's basically made a career out of "replacement drummer" for any number of bands.

The video JP posted to Facebook today shows their studio set-up and it looks like they're writing it together while jamming? Maybe?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> Ok, I'm only responding because you think I'm being "purposely obtuse..."
> 
> Go back and actually read what I've said, because I never said any of that. You were asserting that he wouldn't possibly be fired because the band is like a family. I never said they were going to fire him, only that your reasoning was bonkers. Much earlier in the thread, I suggested that LaBrie might consider retiring once his voice is completely blown out, in response to another person who laid out the five year plan.
> And Dominici was fired after their first major release. Before him they had other vocalists during their garage days. And I already posted the link explaining how Portnoy left the band, which I'm assuming you didn't bother to read, since your still stuck on the idea that he just quit out of the blue.
> I never said it was a revolving door, but you can't go around saying that they would never fire anyone in the band when they've already fired four people full stop.
> To get to your analogy, it's like a guy telling me his buddy would never get a divorce, when he's already been divorced four times, then the guy explaining that the first wife was 25 years ago, the second was shortly after that, and wouldn't keep a toned figure for him, the third was a rebound wife, and the fourth divorce was 8 years ago and was "complicated." I'm not going to say he's definitely going to get a divorce, but that line of reasoning just isn't going to make sense to me, you know?
> ...or just go on misquoting me and insulting me and putting words in my mouth, and then say your done talking to me or whatever.



Saying someone is being obtuse is not an insult, and I specifically said there were no hard feelings. I just do not see the point in having a conversation with someone who is looking to argue rather than understand, and to antagonise and misinterpret rather than honestly discuss. And to no surprise: look at this message. 

Happy to leave it here, cheers. 



groverj3 said:


> I would like to see some more input from Mangini, but I have no idea what that would sound like . He's basically made a career out of "replacement drummer" for any number of bands.
> 
> The video JP posted to Facebook today shows their studio set-up and it looks like they're writing it together while jamming? Maybe?




Looks pretty cool! Are they recording at Bear Track Studios again, or does it just look remarkably like it? If you've never seen it, the Behind the Scenes video from the recording of Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory is worth the watch. Studio setup looks similar, but I thought Bear Track had closed down or changed direction in the sort of projects they take on. 

Either way, yeah, that could serve as a jam room. Or maybe it's just all the gear under one roof. I just find it funny part of the selection criteria for the drummer auditions was an ability to jam with the band, and then Mangini later reports that he feels like a drum machine with no input.


----------



## groverj3

Sermo Lupi said:


> Looks pretty cool! Are they recording at Bear Track Studios again, or does it just look remarkably like it? If you've never seen it, the Behind the Scenes video from the recording of Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory is worth the watch. Studio setup looks similar, but I thought Bear Track had closed down or changed direction in the sort of projects they take on.
> 
> Either way, yeah, that could serve as a jam room. Or maybe it's just all the gear under one roof. I just find it funny part of the selection criteria for the drummer auditions was an ability to jam with the band, and then Mangini later reports that he feels like a drum machine with no input.



Skinny JP. Another era, for sure.

I don't think it's Bear Tracks, but it is very reminiscent of it.

Not sure what happened, but the video I posted disappeared.


----------



## groverj3

Dominici uploaded this to youtube a few years back. Hanging out and rehearsing when they were still Majesty.



Talk about another era. JP playing Randalls and BC Rich. Myung still doesn't say anything though


----------



## groverj3

Some potato quality shots of the Images and Words sessions.


----------



## r33per

groverj3 said:


> Some potato quality shots of the Images and Words sessions.



Primus sucks...


----------



## wankerness

I'm not scanning through an hour and 38 minutes of video to try and figure out what you mean.


----------



## bostjan

r33per said:


> Primus sucks...





wankerness said:


> I'm not scanning through an hour and 38 minutes of video to try and figure out what you mean.


I'm not sure, but at 48 minutes, Portnoy is wearing a Primus T Shirt, then a moment later, he appears in blackface (?!)


----------



## groverj3

bostjan said:


> I'm not sure, but at 48 minutes, Portnoy is wearing a Primus T Shirt, then a moment later, he appears in blackface (?!)


I didn't even notice this. I kind of just skipped around the video.


----------



## bostjan

groverj3 said:


> I didn't even notice this. I kind of just skipped around the video.


Yeah, same here. I can't really imagine anyone watching that start to finish. There was something about a Primus hat, too, but I forgot when. The parts of them recording _Images and Words_ was really cool. It's kind of nice to see them fuck up little parts here and there, since they have this reputation as the invincible band that can play anything without a lazy note anywhere. Some of the little skits in between were interesting - the one where they are having Thanksgiving and Myung actually gives thanks before they eat is something - probably the most I've heard him say in one instance.


----------



## bostjan

Double post - I guess the database is issuing more double posts lately to make up for the lost posts from the other day.


----------



## Randy

Related/unrelated.... am I the only one that regularly sees Myung playing his ass off and he's either buried in the mix or the output you're hearing sounds a lot less elaborate than his fingers are implying?


----------



## bostjan

Randy said:


> Related/unrelated.... am I the only one that regularly sees Myung playing his ass off and he's either buried in the mix or the output you're hearing sounds a lot less elaborate than his fingers are implying?


No. There have been threads about that very fact on several other forums, the debate that ensues is typically whether a) he's buried in the mix on every album OR b) he's buried in the mix on some albums, playing really simplistic stuff on other albums, and stands out just a little bit on a couple albums.
I've seen them live 12 or so times, and I've been able to hear Myung quite well in most of those shows, and his performances, to me, were either really great and airtight or a little bit sloppy, depending on the night. Mind you, it's pretty easy to look a little sloppy on stage with the rest of the musicians in the band - I'm not trying to knock his skills.


----------



## r33per

wankerness said:


> I'm not scanning through an hour and 38 minutes of video to try and figure out what you mean.


It was the Primus cap on the car dashboard in the first few minutes, that's all.


----------



## wankerness

Ah. Well, you're right. Primus do kind of suck.


----------



## bobbyprayogo

Metropolis is a masterpiece. 
As to the new stuff, I like Mangini work.


----------



## r33per

wankerness said:


> Ah. Well, you're right. Primus do kind of suck.


Damn straight. Although i feel we might be a little off topic...

Here's a question, though: how do we feel about the LTE albums? Not Dream Theater, but still Dream Theater, right?


----------



## chopeth




----------



## groverj3

r33per said:


> Damn straight. Although i feel we might be a little off topic...
> 
> Here's a question, though: how do we feel about the LTE albums? Not Dream Theater, but still Dream Theater, right?



Basically. I, personally, like them a lot. It's good noodly nonsense.


----------



## wankerness

Liquid Tension Experiment 1 is a bad combo of haphazard noodling and these stupid "heads" that sound like the shred versions of inspirational Christian music (State of Grace, Kindred Spirits, Universal Mind, Freedom of Speech to a lesser degree), but I really love Osmosis and the album's still kind of fun. "Chris and Kevin's Excellent Adventure" has fun stick playing ?

LTE2 is really great and has none of the problems of the first one. The "song" sections of Acid Rain, Biaxident and When the Water Breaks in particular are better than a lot of dream theater songs. Even the less melodic/structured songs are infinitely better to listen to than more recent dream theater's bad solo sections. And I LOVE Rudess's playing on it. It's definitely the high point of his playing. I'm never thinking "turn off that goddam siren" like I was immediately on Metropolis 2


----------



## Sermo Lupi

I actually quite like LTE 1. For a band that is sometimes described as 'basically Dream Theater', I find Tony Levin's role in Liquid Tension to be fairly underrated. Plus those two albums coincide with what was probably Petrucci's peak level of playing, even though I think that comes across more in his work with Dream Theater during that time than LTE.

If you guys haven't seen it, Petrucci's clinic at MI in 1998 is a must-watch. Surprisingly good audio/video quality, and he plays a bunch of LTE stuff because they'd just released their first album. Goes over all his gear as well, and even plays that song he wrote for that pinball game. Really cool window into the playing of 'young' Petrucci.


----------



## Herrick

Avedas said:


> I remember seeing a rig rundown type thing with Myung where he was talking about his bass harmonizer pedal, because apparently he does that sometimes. Still never heard it lmao







bostjan said:


> LaBrie has some moments where he sounds like a rock band vocalist, but, most of the time, he seems to be approaching his role more like he's in a talent contest or a musical. I think he overcorrected that on _Awake_, as the most cringey moments are LaBrie's "tough guy" vocals.



Yeah even in his prime he never did the "tough guy" vocals very well. His voice simply isn't suited for that.



bostjan said:


> We've heard LaBrie sing some of Dominici's songs, but I do sometimes wonder if Dominici would have grown into his role more comfortably over time. Chris Collins sounded, well, "interesting" when he was screaming, but the general tone of his voice when singing regular parts just sounded so weird and unnatural. I get the feeling that, early on, they were looking for a singer who sounded like Bruce Dickinson/Rob Halford, and I wonder if they would have been more open minded in just getting a good solid singer, someone like Russell Allen, if they would have attained better mainstream success.
> 
> But LaBrie is their singer, sort of the "face" of the band, and I think he does a decent job as such, even if he is controversial.



Dominici has a good voice but he didn't have the vocal range the band wanted. Dominici sounds absolutely dreadful on some of the old live bootlegs. I bet he would've sounded a lot better if they wrote melodies he could handle. Other than singing off key during that Anniversary show, Dominici's voice actually sounded better than LaBrie's.



wat said:


> They are tuning down a whole step now. Really doesn't sound very good, unfortunately.



They should've started tuning down 10 years ago maybe even more than 10 years ago.

Here's the video grover3j mentioned. It's very interesting.


----------



## groverj3

Sermo Lupi said:


> I actually quite like LTE 1. For a band that is sometimes described as 'basically Dream Theater', I find Tony Levin's role in Liquid Tension to be fairly underrated. Plus those two albums coincide with what was probably Petrucci's peak level of playing, even though I think that comes across more in his work with Dream Theater during that time than LTE.
> 
> If you guys haven't seen it, Petrucci's clinic at MI in 1998 is a must-watch. Surprisingly good audio/video quality, and he plays a bunch of LTE stuff because they'd just released their first album. Goes over all his gear as well, and even plays that song he wrote for that pinball game. Really cool window into the playing of 'young' Petrucci.




That's great, I hadn't seen this yet.

He messed up the double stop bends in the slow section of Paradigm shift. Even a god can bleed! He also strikes me as being kind of nervous at the beginning of this. Mortal after all.

Also, that is indeed the video I was talking about Re: LaBrie


----------



## Sermo Lupi

groverj3 said:


> That's great, I hadn't seen this yet.
> 
> He messed up the double stop bends in the slow section of Paradigm shift. Even a god can bleed!
> 
> Also, that is indeed the video I was talking about Re: LaBrie



Haha, yep. He flubs some parts of the other songs, too, and later mentions how he hasn't played them in a while so it is hard to remember how they go. That's crazy for two reasons, really, the first one of them being that the album was written and recorded in only a week (as JP mentions in the video), leaving him very little opportunity to get them down. The second reason is that the songs were still new when this was recorded. 

Just looking at a few dates, Dream Theater released Once in a LIVEtime June 25th of that year, which had a massive setlist, and DT was still actively on tour a few months later on August 30th when Petrucci did that clinic at MI (notice how, at the end, he says he has to leave for soundcheck). So I'm not sure how many shows LTE played that year (if any at all), but Petrucci would have been in "Dream Theater mode" for months by that point. They'd only released LTE 1 March 10th of that year, so, adding this all together, those songs at this point were basically a bunch of off-the-cuff ideas JP wrote and recorded in a week, a couple of months ago before this big Dream Theater tour. 

Meanwhile, he's probably thinking about Metropolis Pt. 2, which the band would start recording next year in 1999. They'd already recorded a 21-minute demo with the intention of releasing it on Falling Into Infinity, but it never made the cut. All in all, it's a pretty quintessential point in Petrucci's career, if you think about it.


----------



## bostjan

groverj3 said:


> That's great, I hadn't seen this yet.
> 
> He messed up the double stop bends in the slow section of Paradigm shift. Even a god can bleed! He also strikes me as being kind of nervous at the beginning of this. Mortal after all.
> 
> Also, that is indeed the video I was talking about Re: LaBrie


Wow, that video was kind of a wreck. He messed up a little bit in the intro as well, and there were several notes in the fast parts throughout that were replaced with "*plink*" sounds. I would have said it's still better than I could play it, but the part you mentioned (4:21-4:39), he seemed like he just totally got lost. 

Never knew Paradigm Shift intro was inspired by a Van Halen song, though.


----------



## groverj3

I know that lots of people point to this era as his best, but I actually think that the Train of Thought era was his pinnacle. Maybe I just watched Live at Budokan at an impressionable age. Not their best songwriting, but JP is just locked in and pretty much perfect at that show.


----------



## scrub

Hard to get more locked in then the ending of 'this dying soul' and the solo in 'stream of consciousness'


----------



## Zalbu

wat said:


> They are tuning down a whole step now. Really doesn't sound very good, unfortunately.


A song like Dyers Eve would probably sound kickass in D standard but I doubt Lars could play that nowadays without his legs falling off


----------



## Sermo Lupi

groverj3 said:


> I know that lots of people point to this era as his best, but I actually think that the Train of Thought era was his pinnacle. Maybe I just watched Live at Budokan at an impressionable age. Not their best songwriting, but JP is just locked in and pretty much perfect at that show.



Definitely watched Live at the Budokan more times than I can count, and it's a great performance. Even today, Petrucci's accuracy is top-notch if you ask me. It's just more about how creative his playing was back then, and how limber he looks in the live videos from that era. 2003 isn't that far away from then, anyway.

I am pretty open-minded when it comes to DT in general, though. I don't really 'hate' any of the albums or any of the members, as some fans do. And I definitely don't want to endorse the idea that Petrucci was only great from 1992 until ~2000, then rubbish from 2007+.


----------



## groverj3

Sermo Lupi said:


> Definitely watched Live at the Budokan more times than I can count, and it's a great performance. Even today, Petrucci's accuracy is top-notch if you ask me. It's just more about how creative his playing was back then, and how limber he looks in the live videos from that era. 2003 isn't that far away from then, anyway.
> 
> I am pretty open-minded when it comes to DT in general, though. I don't really 'hate' any of the albums or any of the members, as some fans do. And I definitely don't want to endorse the idea that Petrucci was only great from 1992 until ~2000, then rubbish from 2007+.


For sure, a lot of that seems pretty silly to me too.

As I said earlier, the first DT album I really got into was Systematic Chaos after an unsuccessful attempt at Octavarium a year or two before that. So, in my mind 07-today Petrucci is still a high water mark for accuracy and technique. I got into their older stuff after that. To me it seems like a natural progression of his playing. That doesn't mean everyone has to like everything, but those that act like something magically changed after the 90s confuse me.

I do miss the Portnoy era though, because he contributed to songwriting. Right now it seems like the JP and Rudess show. However, some of Portnoy's ideas weren't always the best either. I'd be interested to see more updates from the writing, because it seems like this time around they're writing with everyone present which I don't think they've done since Systematic Chaos (at least that's the last time I think LaBrie was around for the writing, which is a rarity even before that).


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> Liquid Tension Experiment 1 is a bad combo of haphazard noodling and these stupid "heads" that sound like the shred versions of inspirational Christian music (State of Grace, Kindred Spirits, Universal Mind, Freedom of Speech to a lesser degree)


Oh my goodness! You're 100% right!


----------



## Sermo Lupi

groverj3 said:


> I do miss the Portnoy era though, because he contributed to songwriting. Right now it seems like the JP and Rudess show. However, some of Portnoy's ideas weren't always the best either. I'd be interested to see more updates from the writing, because it seems like this time around they're writing with everyone present which I don't think they've done since Systematic Chaos (at least that's the last time I think LaBrie was around for the writing, which is a rarity even before that).



Yeah. In a lot of ways, he contributed more to the identity and direction of the band than any other member, and it was in that capacity that he could be called 'bandleader'--musically, it isn't as clear cut. 

Still, the role that Portnoy played in co-producing all those albums often drew from whatever music was inspiring him at the time. He took a lot of the blame when Dream Theater started going in a more 'metal' direction, presumably because it seemed to be where his tastes were going at the time (something that was easy to gauge due to Portnoy being a musical encyclopedia and posting his long-form thoughts about such things on his website), yet DT has remained largely on that same trajectory since Portnoy split. 

Whether Portnoy ever returns to the band or not, I'd like to see DT move away from all the fantasy stuff and go back to their old conceptual focus. No qualms whatsoever with ambitious concept albums--Six Degrees and Scenes from a Memory are great--it just seemed to me that the older stuff was more in DT's wheelhouse.


----------



## groverj3

Some posters on the DT forums found out exactly where they are holding writing sessions right now:

http://www.yonderbarn.com/


----------



## groverj3

John Myung sighting 






Those people over there are insane and borderline stalkerish.

I guess I'm no better for reposting their stuff.


----------



## beneharris

The last few albums have been underwhelming, especially the Astonishing, but having grown up on these guys and loving every minute of it, I still fan girl out every time they're recording new stuff.


----------



## bostjan

Has anyone else listened to the Demo version of _Falling into Infinity_? I don't hate _FiI_ but it's not my favourite, either, but revisiting the demos, I've concluded that I like the demo versions of the songs better. The production is quite good for a demo, and the songs sound more like Dream Theater. According to the liner notes, many of the band members were at personal low points, with Mike losing his grandmother and both of his parents-in-law, Petrucci losing his dad, Myung losing family as well, and LaBrie losing his voice, Kevin leaving the band, their record label being dissolved and them being unable to play any tour dates as a result of that once they were finally ready to come back. So, it sounds like the label/management wanted to get involved in the writing process by rewriting some of the band's songs for them, and the result was only negative, in my opinion.

You can listen and read the liner notes in this video:


----------



## wankerness

I've only ever heard the demo of "You Not Me," which I actually liked LESS than the one with the studio-mandated Bon Jovi chorus. I'll have to listen to the rest of it when I'm off work.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> I've only ever heard the demo of "You Not Me," which I actually liked LESS than the one with the studio-mandated Bon Jovi chorus. I'll have to listen to the rest of it when I'm off work.


I think that's my least favourite track off of the demo, but I actually disliked the demo version less. I do think that's one of the three songs that had the most stuff changed.


----------



## Randy

beneharris said:


> The last few albums have been underwhelming, especially the Astonishing



I don't think I've listened to a single track from The Astonishing, but my potentially "unpopular belief" about the recent Dream Theater catalog is that the albums and song writing overall have been boring but the riffs are potentially better than a lot of the older stuff. "Systematic Chaos" was the first album I started to hear a nearly universal "wow, this band sucks now" sentiment from fans but I thought that album was Riff City. 

Not to turn this thread into a complaint soap box and not to be hipstery about it, but yeah... the WAY Labrie's vocals are used the last several years and the songwriting overall has been so boring. Getting into Dream Theater for Petrucci, not loving Labrie's vocals, being annoyed with Portnoy, thinking Ruddess overplays everything (and especially lots of really cheesy lines) and thinking Myung didn't contribute much, I always ASSUMED the band was best off with Petrucci writing everything but all indications are that that's been the case for the last decade and the results have kinda sucked. 

It wasn't until later on and when they were involved with other projects that I appreciated Dominici, Moore, Sherinian, and even Labrie and Portnoy. Actually, almost any one of the albums released by any of those guys has been a more complete work and listenable album than anything by Dream Theater in the last decade. I slowly started to realize the band only worked when the songwriting worked as a community and not just Petrucci and Rudess.


----------



## beneharris

Randy said:


> I don't think I've listened to a single track from The Astonishing, but my potentially "unpopular belief" about the recent Dream Theater catalog is that the albums and song writing overall have been boring but the riffs are potentially better than a lot of the older stuff. "Systematic Chaos" was the first album I started to hear a nearly universal "wow, this band sucks now" sentiment from fans but I thought that album was Riff City.
> 
> Not to turn this thread into a complaint soap box and not to be hipstery about it, but yeah... the WAY Labrie's vocals are used the last several years and the songwriting overall has been so boring. Getting into Dream Theater for Petrucci, not loving Labrie's vocals, being annoyed with Portnoy, thinking Ruddess overplays everything (and especially lots of really cheesy lines) and thinking Myung didn't contribute much, I always ASSUMED the band was best off with Petrucci writing everything but all indications are that that's been the case for the last decade and the results have kinda sucked.
> 
> It wasn't until later on and when they were involved with other projects that I appreciated Dominici, Moore, Sherinian, and even Labrie and Portnoy. Actually, almost any one of the albums released by any of those guys has been a more complete work and listenable album than anything by Dream Theater in the last decade. I slowly started to realize the band only worked when the songwriting worked as a community and not just Petrucci and Rudess.



I really liked Systematic Chaos, I thought it was great. BCAS, too. Everything after that I felt was good, but not what they're able to do. I love all the 10 minute sections of wank with Ruddess, that is one of my favorite parts of the band. I just keep hoping that they go back to pre-SOC levels of greatness.


----------



## Soya

Randy said:


> I don't think I've listened to a single track from The Astonishing, but my potentially "unpopular belief" about the recent Dream Theater catalog is that the albums and song writing overall have been boring but the riffs are potentially better than a lot of the older stuff. "Systematic Chaos" was the first album I started to hear a nearly universal "wow, this band sucks now" sentiment from fans but I thought that album was Riff City.
> 
> Not to turn this thread into a complaint soap box and not to be hipstery about it, but yeah... the WAY Labrie's vocals are used the last several years and the songwriting overall has been so boring. Getting into Dream Theater for Petrucci, not loving Labrie's vocals, being annoyed with Portnoy, thinking Ruddess overplays everything (and especially lots of really cheesy lines) and thinking Myung didn't contribute much, I always ASSUMED the band was best off with Petrucci writing everything but all indications are that that's been the case for the last decade and the results have kinda sucked.
> 
> It wasn't until later on and when they were involved with other projects that I appreciated Dominici, Moore, Sherinian, and even Labrie and Portnoy. Actually, almost any one of the albums released by any of those guys has been a more complete work and listenable album than anything by Dream Theater in the last decade. I slowly started to realize the band only worked when the songwriting worked as a community and not just Petrucci and Rudess.



After that post you should change your name to Randy SAVAGE.


----------



## wankerness

I listened to some more of those demos. Over 2 hours?! AINT NO ONE GOT TIME FOR THAT!!

Take Away My Pain sounds kind of like the one on the live album. I actually really like the album version, even though I know the band HATES it, and I find this one less interesting. It's kind of the same thing minus the odd bass (stick?) playing, and minus the odd layered leads. I still like it, though. I think that might even be my favorite song on the album. I think I'm in an extreme minority there! I remember some of these other songs (Raise the Knife, The Way it Used to Be) from the old Napster days. I think leaving them off the album was a good idea. 

I think I like this version of Anna Lee more than the album version. I like the more accentuated classic rock keyboards more than the "heartrending" piano on the album version. It gives it quite a different feel and it feels a lot less sappy. It's a good song!

I'm not big on this version of Hollow Years. That's another one I quite like, despite the cheese factor. I like the live album version and the album version about equally.

EDIT: Wow, I haven't listened to Speak to Me since the Napster days, when I'd never heard The Cure. They should have just done a cover of Lovesong and been done with it.


----------



## Avedas

I really liked Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, but they're definitely inconsistent. Prophets of War and The Shattered Fortress are unlistenable messes.


----------



## beneharris

Avedas said:


> I really liked Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, but they're definitely inconsistent. Prophets of War and The Shattered Fortress are unlistenable messes.



Those are the best songs off either of those cds


----------



## Avedas

beneharris said:


> Those are the best songs off either of those cds


I wish I knew why DT decided to write a bunch of songs that sound like Muse, because I can't stand Muse.


----------



## beneharris

Avedas said:


> I wish I knew why DT decided to write a bunch of songs that sound like Muse, because I can't stand Muse.



I'm truly not trying to argue with you here, because Prophets of War was definitely a Muse song, Portnoy said as much, but Shattered Fortress?

Also, in my defense, when I saw Prophets of War, I read "Ministry of Lost Souls".


----------



## Avedas

beneharris said:


> I'm truly not trying to argue with you here, because Prophets of War was definitely a Muse song, Portnoy said as much, but Shattered Fortress?
> 
> Also, in my defense, when I saw Prophets of War, I read "Ministry of Lost Souls".


I was referring to Prophets, yeah, and some of the stuff off Octavarium as well.


----------



## thesnowdog

Randy said:


> Related/unrelated.... am I the only one that regularly sees Myung playing his ass off and he's either buried in the mix or the output you're hearing sounds a lot less elaborate than his fingers are implying?



Bass ->


----------



## groverj3

Avedas said:


> I really liked Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, but they're definitely inconsistent. Prophets of War and The Shattered Fortress are unlistenable messes.


Prophets of War is good, The Shattered Fortress is the least interesting of the 12-step suite. It was all just reused riffs from the past songs. It's not bad, but also doesn't do much for me.

In the Presence of Enemies Part 1 got me into the bad so I definitely like that album more than most fans.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Thanks for posting those FII demos. Just finished listening to them and I loved every minute of it, but I'm a self-proclaimed DT fanboy. I do have some of the older DT fanclub CDs laying around but never got these releases MP did on Ytsejam records. Wish I'd bought them then!


----------



## wankerness

That Metropolis II demo was interesting, I was not even aware of its existence. It starts out with Overture 1928 and Strange Deja Vu, has a few snippets of Dance of Eternity, and then pretty much just devolves into the most directionless soloing I've ever heard from them! It's kind of funny.


----------



## musicaldeath

Love that version of Raise the Knife. Those demos are great, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Soya

groverj3 said:


> Prophets of War is good, The Shattered Fortress is the least interesting of the 12-step suite. It was all just reused riffs from the past songs. It's not bad, but also doesn't do much for me.



Not to be pedantic but I imagine that was kind of the point, being the last song in the suite.


----------



## Herrick

Randy said:


> Related/unrelated.... am I the only one that regularly sees Myung playing his ass off and he's either buried in the mix or the output you're hearing sounds a lot less elaborate than his fingers are implying?



Yeah he's usually buried in the live stuff I've seen/heard. 



bostjan said:


> Has anyone else listened to the Demo version of _Falling into Infinity_?




I've only heard the demo version a couple times. I liked it more than Falling Into Infinity. I hate Falling Into Infinity less than when I bought it years ago but it never really grew on me so it was nice to have this demo version. It's a shame the band couldn't make the album the way they wanted to.

There's an interview with Petrucci from a couple years ago claiming there was a misconception about outside influences on the band's songwriting and how they really made the album they wanted to make. BUTT past comments from Portnoy and LaBrie contradict Petrucci's claim.


----------



## Lukhas

Petrucci and LaBrie doing their best to reassure everyone.



Apparently "the CabClone™®© on the Boogie™®© sound unbelievable"...


----------



## Sermo Lupi

I'm not really sure what your making fun of? They were just describing the demo setup and how things are run through the board; saying the cab clones sound good went hand and hand with the point that the 'scratch demos' were actually pretty high quality. But the demo setup is only being used to sketch out the Pro Tools sessions so that everything can be recorded properly in the traditional way. Which I'd imagine JP is using real cabs and mics for. 

Call it product placement if you want, but people have been geeking out about every tiny detail of John's gear since at least 1995. Seems to me he was just answering a question, not trying to name drop products.


----------



## groverj3

Didn't they do live demos for Train of Thought before going into the studio to record for real? Seems like a similar situation here.


----------



## Lukhas

Sermo Lupi said:


> I'm not really sure what your making fun of?


The CabClone is the product the Andertons' YouTube channel had to demo a second time with the assistance of a Mesa rep because they were not impressed with it the first time, to put it mildly. The reviews are far from being glowing, nor are any of the demos available. Maybe Petrucci honestly thinks it sounds great and I'll give him the benefice of doubt on that matter. Hell, I don't have any issues with him placing products either, it's his livelihood after all. I'll even admit I've never bought a CabClone. Well, sure as hell isn't going to happen anytime soon to be honest...


----------



## StevenC

Lukhas said:


> The CabClone is the product the Andertons' YouTube channel had to demo a second time with the assistance of a Mesa rep because they were not impressed with it the first time, to put it mildly. The reviews are far from being glowing, nor are any of the demos available. Maybe Petrucci honestly thinks it sounds great and I'll give him the benefice of doubt on that matter. Hell, I don't have any issues with him placing products either, it's his livelihood after all. I'll even admit I've never bought a CabClone. Well, sure as hell isn't going to happen anytime soon to be honest...


Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't part of the deal with the Twosie that it's got a newer, better version of the CabClone from the stand alone, and that people actually like that one?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Lukhas said:


> The CabClone is the product the Andertons' YouTube channel had to demo a second time with the assistance of a Mesa rep because they were not impressed with it the first time, to put it mildly. The reviews are far from being glowing, nor are any of the demos available. Maybe Petrucci honestly thinks it sounds great and I'll give him the benefice of doubt on that matter. Hell, I don't have any issues with him placing products either, it's his livelihood after all. I'll even admit I've never bought a CabClone. Well, sure as hell isn't going to happen anytime soon to be honest...



Hadn't heard about any of that, but most of it seems irrelevant. To look at it another way, Petrucci is basically Mesa Boogie's most valuable artist, and they're always giving him new stuff to try out and get his feedback on (for example, search YouTube to see him tinkering with a prototype version of the Mark V:25). He's also never said a bad thing about Mesa Boogie and tends to gush about all of his sponsors. 

In light of that, I think it's more plausible to assume that Petrucci is just demoing new Mesa tech as he always does, and is praising it as he always does. I doubt it's to counter any bad reviews from Anderton's or elsewhere, or to fulfill some request of Mesa Boogie to do so. I'm not saying an artist mentioning sponsors isn't business as usual--obviously it is--but I think maybe you're assuming that remark was a bit more Machiavellian than it really is.


----------



## Lukhas

StevenC said:


> Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't part of the deal with the Twosie that it's got a newer, better version of the CabClone from the stand alone, and that people actually like that one?


I didn't hear about it, but it would be nice.


Sermo Lupi said:


> [...] but I think maybe you're assuming that remark was a bit more Machiavellian than it really is.


Nope, not at all.  I was just joking about it, putting his opinion in parallel with what is known about the CabClone. If we can't have a bit of fun anymore...


----------



## bostjan

Herrick said:


> I've only heard the demo version a couple times. I liked it more than Falling Into Infinity. I hate Falling Into Infinity less than when I bought it years ago but it never really grew on me so it was nice to have this demo version. It's a shame the band couldn't make the album the way they wanted to.
> 
> There's an interview with Petrucci from a couple years ago claiming there was a misconception about outside influences on the band's songwriting and how they really made the album they wanted to make. BUTT past comments from Portnoy and LaBrie contradict Petrucci's claim.





Petrucci said:


> Maybe I could set the records straight: I think that’s a really big misunderstanding. The label didn’t have an influence on the album. We wrote the kind of album we wanted to write. We went in there with Kevin Shirley, a great friend of mine, and we got really experimental with the songs, you know, how we recorded each song.



I think if you simply listen to the lyrics of most of the album, you can tell that whoever was writing the lyrics (Portnoy) was greatly frustrated with the process. The demos themselves, to me, are evidence that the label made some changes to the songs, as this demo is far more different from the finished product than the other demos.



Portnoy said:


> But I can't say it was the direction *I* wanted the band to go in. We kinda had our hands tied by the label and were in a very vulnerable situation. All of our key people at Elektra had been let go, so we were dealing with all new people who couldn't care less about Dream Theater and would not give us a green light until we played their game and delivered some songs that they could understand. They also would not drop us from the label when we asked them to, so we had no choice but to play their game and hope they were right. They turned out to be wrong and finally came to their senses this time around and let us do things our way. There were a few good songs on Infinity (Just Let Me Breathe, New Millennium, Lines In The Sand), but if we didn't have the label and Kevin Shirley and Desmond Child involved, I would have made a COMPLETELY different record.



I think Petrucci is likely speaking for himself and that perhaps the rest of the band, particularly Portnoy, felt differently.



Lukhas said:


> Petrucci and LaBrie doing their best to reassure everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently "the CabClone™®© on the Boogie™®© sound unbelievable"...




Yeah, I saw that yesterday. Recording everything direct...I think we are seeing a lot more acceptance of that. Of course, the finished product could end up being anything, in terms of how guitar is recorded or reamped or whatever.

The thing is, whether it's Petrucci or Misha or Tosin or whoever, these guys likely make more money through high-profile endorsements than through royalties, so expecting a video from Petrucci where he doesn't mention a product is like expecting a Bill Gates interview without a mention of any Microsoft® Products.


----------



## bostjan

Intro/Outro music in the video is a bit loud, so watch your ears, especially headphones users.

But anyway, Derek seems to sort of acknowledge Portnoy's/LaBrie's narrative without explicitly saying anything.


----------



## groverj3

Lukhas said:


> The CabClone is the product the Andertons' YouTube channel had to demo a second time with the assistance of a Mesa rep because they were not impressed with it the first time, to put it mildly. The reviews are far from being glowing, nor are any of the demos available. Maybe Petrucci honestly thinks it sounds great and I'll give him the benefice of doubt on that matter. Hell, I don't have any issues with him placing products either, it's his livelihood after all. I'll even admit I've never bought a CabClone. Well, sure as hell isn't going to happen anytime soon to be honest...


Could just be that it is working fine for them to record live demos and that's all.


----------



## TedEH

I don't know if the standalone product is different, but I think I'm the only one who likes the CabClone feature that's built into the Mark amps now. Are they mind blowing? Maybe not. But I'd take that cabclone tone over any Line6 models any day.

It's one of those products that gets praised when you DON'T tell people that's where your tone came from.

"Hey man, that's a great lead tone, how'd you do that?"
"Oh, that's just strait up V:25 + cabclone + some delay"
"Ew, cabclone, you should have used [insert popular product]"

Combine that with the fact that I'm not the kind of person to put Petrucci's taste in tone on a pedestal, and I'd gladly accept that he probably does actually like it. Some of the tones he's come up with are less than stellar, even if some other tones he's come up with are pretty great.


----------



## Lukhas

groverj3 said:


> Could just be that it is working fine for them to record live demos and that's all.


Well he did say "unbelievable".  C'mon guys, it's a sarcastic joke. Well it did liven up the thread somewhat at least...  I don't care about him using it or whatever: I just found that comment very funny. This was taken way too seriously. I thought only Germans had to explain jokes...


----------



## fps

Lukhas said:


> The CabClone is the product the Andertons' YouTube channel had to demo a second time with the assistance of a Mesa rep because they were not impressed with it the first time, to put it mildly. The reviews are far from being glowing, nor are any of the demos available. Maybe Petrucci honestly thinks it sounds great and I'll give him the benefice of doubt on that matter. Hell, I don't have any issues with him placing products either, it's his livelihood after all. I'll even admit I've never bought a CabClone. Well, sure as hell isn't going to happen anytime soon to be honest...



Who cares? If Petrucci likes it that's all that matters. What's JOHN PETRUCCI going to do, care about what some online reviews think? It's not the tool, it's the operator.


----------



## Lukhas

fps said:


> Who cares? If Petrucci likes it that's all that matters. What's JOHN PETRUCCI going to do, care about what some online reviews think? It's not the tool, it's the operator.





Lukhas said:


> I don't care about him using it or whatever: I just found that comment very funny. This was taken way too seriously. I thought only Germans had to explain jokes...


I didn't even meant to get replies like these. At least the whole kerfuffle gave me an opportunity to smile.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Lukhas said:


> I didn't even meant to get replies like these. At least the whole kerfuffle gave me an opportunity to smile.



I feel like im the only one that got what you mean. 

Just out of the blue saying "Oh btw the Cabclone is AMAZEBALLS YO"


----------



## Avedas

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I feel like im the only one that got what you mean.
> 
> Just out of the blue saying "Oh btw the Cabclone is AMAZEBALLS YO"


I liken it to Paul Masvidal's recent Bias review that sounded incredibly forced.


----------



## Avedas

I decided not to go to the Budokan show last year because I didn't feel like playing 12000 JPY for a balcony seat. Now I find the entire thing is on youtube lmao


----------



## Lukhas

Avedas said:


> I decided not to go to the Budokan show last year because I didn't feel like playing 12000 JPY for a balcony seat. Now I find the entire thing is on youtube lmao



That's because you're paying for the experience of having a strained neck. YouTube and its terrible compression cannot reproduce that. I find the sound incredibly muffled on the video. Funny that LaBrie harmonizes his very first vocal line higher... even though they're already tuning down half a step.  But I'm just jesting. It's not bad.

Oh wait, the description does say something about the quality of the mix.


> This is a pro-shot of the company WOWOW japan, the same was broadcast on television. It was rumored that DT was going to release an official DVD of this, but it was not what they expected after mixing and editing errors (Labrie's performance was ruined in almost its entirety with a badly applied autotune for example) among other things. It is difficult to get this because now it is just like an unofficial DVD of the bunch, but I have decided to share it with you so that it is not forgotten.


By the way, thanks for absolutely nothing Autotune.


----------



## Exchanger

Lukhas said:


> Funny that LaBrie harmonizes his very first vocal line higher... even though they're already tuning down half a step



He just re-improvised this line and actually a lot of others...maybe just because he felt like it. I can't pinpoint why, but the overall performance sounds very dull to me.


----------



## Lukhas

Exchanger said:


> He just re-improvised this line and actually a lot of others...maybe just because he felt like it. I can't pinpoint why, but the overall performance sounds very dull to me.




Yeah, the whole thing sounds like there's a carpet between the microphone and the speaker cabinet. I suppose that's what was meant by "mixing and editing errors". And LaBrie's being LaBrie: he's struggling to sing high while maintaining good elocution and articulation. At least I get to actually hear Mike Mangini for once, and I liked it.


----------



## wat

Does anyone else find the whammy use in the intro riff to Pull Me Under to be way over the top and cringey in every live performance? Like GOTDAMN, that is some heavy handed whammy usage.


----------



## DLG

Honestly, why is Labrie in the band still? It's not like they are going to lose any fans by firing him in 2018? Get some young guy who can actually sing the old material and keep it moving. 

Labrie can then actually sing in bands where he isn't forced to play 3 hour sets of things he sang when he was in his 20s just because their new albums are stinkers and need to play "legacy" shows to get butts in seats.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Did anybody listen to the Facebook live chat they had last week? I couldn’t but wondered if they dropped anything newsworthy?


----------



## A-Branger

^same... any talk about 8 string? is it gonna happen or not? or at least any talk about heavier songs? I really hope so after the endless slow piano intros from the astonishing 



DLG said:


> he isn't forced to play 3 hour sets



just remember that our of the 3 hours he prob sings like 1.2 of it  the rest he stands in the corner with the tambourine or something


----------



## Exchanger

DLG said:


> Honestly, why is Labrie in the band still? It's not like they are going to lose any fans by firing him in 2018? Get some young guy who can actually sing the old material and keep it moving.



I think there is a huge personnality/history factor here. They struggled a lot to find their vocalist in their early days, as they wanted someone who had enough charisma to front the band, but could put his ego aside when it comes to creative leadership. Then they stuck with him after the vocal cords incident, they had some issues with his live performances but they gave him a second chance to fix that and he took it... and the band seem to have had a great alchemy from Octavarium until BCSL and the departure of Portnoy. At that point, when you've worked more than 25 years with the same guy and been through hard times, you can't just tear that apart just because you want the Best(TM). He still sounds good on the albums, and isn't that terrible live. As for a replacement, well, they can hire a guy the same age but who probably isn't gonna hit the high notes either, or a much younger guy but then it's probably gonna be harder to bond with him.


----------



## groverj3

TheShreddinHand said:


> Did anybody listen to the Facebook live chat they had last week? I couldn’t but wondered if they dropped anything newsworthy?


I watched most of it.

The only real newsworthy bits are that it sounds like Mangini has a lot more input into songwriting, and LaBrie is actually writing some lyrics/is there for the writing. Their approach sounds like what they did for Train of Thought, where they're making live demos, changing things on the fly, and then going to go into a real studio to record afterwords.

Also, Mangini makes good chicken wings.


----------



## thedonal

I clicked through a bit of it after the event. I have to say John Myung really didn't look like he wanted to be there. Not a criticism- he seems like a pretty introvert/quiet guy.


----------



## A-Branger

groverj3 said:


> The only real newsworthy bits are that it sounds like Mangini has a lot more input into songwriting,



boooo... I had a bit of hope he was going to get tired to not have any imput and eventually leave the bamd, open for the possibility of MikeP returning  Ive never liked Mangini... not even on the drum auditions, meh.... well hopefully he brings some good tunes as Petrucci by itself wasnt doing it for me on the last albums



thedonal said:


> I clicked through a bit of it after the event. I have to say John Myung really didn't look like he wanted to be there. Not a criticism- he seems like a pretty introvert/quiet guy.


'

yup, thats Myung indeed. Reinforcing the stereotype that us bassplayers are the mystery guy in the corner. He always been like taht, he barely speaks


----------



## Herrick

bostjan said:


> I think if you simply listen to the lyrics of most of the album, you can tell that whoever was writing the lyrics (Portnoy) was greatly frustrated with the process. The demos themselves, to me, are evidence that the label made some changes to the songs, as this demo is far more different from the finished product than the other demos.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Petrucci is likely speaking for himself and that perhaps the rest of the band, particularly Portnoy, felt differently.



I'm more inclined to believe Portnoy in this case. There's a documentary on YouTube for the band's...20th anniversary I think. I can't remember which band member it was, but it was someone other than Portnoy who confirmed there was pressure from the label regarding the style of the album. Pretty sure it was LaBrie. I'll look for it if I can remember. 

I don't know why Petrucci would claim they all wanted the album to come out the way it did.


----------



## Avedas

Herrick said:


> I don't know why Petrucci would claim they all wanted the album to come out the way it did.


Probably because he's the smiling face with the most money in the game.


----------



## Curt 8771

Here's to hoping the next albums better.
Saw the astonishing live and It was very boring. 

Also as far as vocals go, the shattered fortress shows with MP and haken were very nice and refreshing vocal wise.


----------



## p0ke

Curt 8771 said:


> Here's to hoping the next albums better.



I'm pretty sure it will be, as long as it's a 'normal' album, not a double or triple one...


----------



## Avedas

I imagine it must be disheartening to write a double album over 2 hours long just to have it received so poorly.


----------



## Lukhas

Avedas said:


> I imagine it must be disheartening to write a double album over 2 hours long just to have it received so poorly.


On the other hand Petrucci wrote what he really felt like writing so fair game to him.


----------



## wankerness

I still think it's a big step up from the last few. I don't know if the bad reaction is due to it being far less "riffy" and technical. I thought the melodies were far more memorable and that it worked as a bunch of songs a lot more than the big clonky riff collages they'd been having on the last few albums. Maybe that's not it at all and everyone would have been fine with the non-technical melody-driven album if it had different melodies, and I'm just the only one who finds it catchy, but this is still my guess!


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> I still think it's a big step up from the last few. I don't know if the bad reaction is due to it being far less "riffy" and technical. I thought the melodies were far more memorable and that it worked as a bunch of songs a lot more than the big clonky riff collages they'd been having on the last few albums. Maybe that's not it at all and everyone would have been fine with the non-technical melody-driven album if it had different melodies, and I'm just the only one who finds it catchy, but this is still my guess!



I don't think the riffs and melodies are bad by any means, but they're mostly just too generic and cheesy, and there's way too much material to properly "scan" through to find the gems. There were a bunch of moments on the album where I thought "wow, that was awesome", but too few and far between to catch my attention for the whole duration.


----------



## Avedas

wankerness said:


> I still think it's a big step up from the last few. I don't know if the bad reaction is due to it being far less "riffy" and technical. I thought the melodies were far more memorable and that it worked as a bunch of songs a lot more than the big clonky riff collages they'd been having on the last few albums. Maybe that's not it at all and everyone would have been fine with the non-technical melody-driven album if it had different melodies, and I'm just the only one who finds it catchy, but this is still my guess!


There are a lot of really good moments on the album and I like it enough for what it is, but whenever I listen to it I also feel like I'm skipping every other song due to it being 2 minutes of computer noises or yet _another_ drawn out interlude with nothing going on. The cheese is a bit more prevalent than typical DT material but they stated the biggest issue in the lyrics: "People just don't have time for music anymore", which is what I'm thinking when I see a 130 minute album with maybe 40 minutes of actual content.


----------



## wankerness

Eh, I didn't notice it having that much filler. Then again, I've listened to Opeth - Heritage and Frances the Mute a bunch of times so anything feels more substantial


----------



## A-Branger

to put it in simple terms. If they grab the best songs out of the two albums and put them into only one. Then they could have had a pretty cool/great album.... Theres way too much filler songs

and common, just listen to the start of every song. 90% of them are slow piano intros, slow soapy songs... I get not every album has to be a metal or heavy, but they took the balance to the slow/piano/orchestra/pop/thing bit too far this time


----------



## The Mirror

A-Branger said:


> I get not every album has to be a metal or heavy, but they took the balance to the slow/piano/orchestra/pop/thing bit too far this time



Give me an album opener like 6:00. It's not overtly heavy (though the guitar sound at the time was quite a change for DT), but it hit's you right from the beginning with the drum fill intro and just keeps going without ever feeling tedious. 

They didn't even really wank that much before 6DoiT, it was more a coherence of melody lines from all the instruments combined, though that of course has much to do with the way KMoore wrote his parts.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## Sermo Lupi

Tasty. 

And I don't mean Mangini's playing.


----------



## DLG

what do you mean then? john's beard?


----------



## Veldar

Will DT finally learn how to write songs on this album?


----------



## JSanta

Veldar said:


> Will DT finally learn how to write songs on this album?



*relearn

I'd argue that up to and including ToT are fantastic. I've bought everything since then, but there hasn't been the same magic IMO.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

DLG said:


> what do you mean then? john's beard?



Only after it catches the scraps.


----------



## Veldar

JSanta said:


> *relearn
> 
> I'd argue that up to and including ToT are fantastic. I've bought everything since then, but there hasn't been the same magic IMO.



Fair, some of the tracks off the first 4 albums really speak to me, but they definitely fall off after that


----------



## JSanta

Veldar said:


> Fair, some of the tracks off the first 4 albums really speak to me, but they definitely fall off after that



Scenes from a Memory is my favorite DT album, and probably in my top 5 favorites of all time .


----------



## The Mirror

JSanta said:


> Scenes from a Memory is my favorite DT album, and probably in my top 5 favorites of all time .



I agree that it is a quite great record, but it also really showed were DT were going with in the future.

The instrumental part in Home is downright annoying at times and the song would improve by a lot if it would simply be cut in half. Also the story concept is quite meh, yet at least it is a story and not the chumming up Young-Adult nonsense that is The Astonishing.

On the other hand they showed how to write great instrumental parts with The Dance of Eternity, which is constructed in a coherent way, without ever really being just note after note. It seems like every part makes a sense in the concept.

I am really torn on post KMoore DT and while I technically own every record of them (I even bought The Astonishing without ever even making it to the second CD) I find myself listening to I&W and (obviously, duh) Awake exclusively.

It might get quite controversial here, but I very much prefer Circus Maximus' Nine/Havoc to anything DT put out after Awake.

After The Fire is the best Prog Metal Song I've heard since Voices.


----------



## Avedas

The Mirror said:


> The Dance of Eternity, which is constructed in a coherent way


I always thought the last two minutes of that song are pointless and drag out too long. I love the rest of it though.


----------



## Furtive Glance

Avedas said:


> I always thought the last two minutes of that song are pointless and drag out too long.



Definitely agree on that point.


----------



## wankerness

Avedas said:


> I always thought the last two minutes of that song are pointless and drag out too long. I love the rest of it though.



I sort of like the outro until the carnival f'in keyboard comes in and starts doing unison with the chunky guitar/bass thing.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

wankerness said:


> I sort of like [...] until the carnival f'in keyboard comes in...


 
Jordan Rudess in DT in a nutshell.


----------



## Lukhas

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Jordan Rudess in DT in a nutshell.


Much like LaBrie, I prefer his solo work as far as the last decade goes; even though I love Octavarium. 

I think I've said this before in this thread, but Along For The Ride has to be my least favourite DT song; mostly because of *that *solo. The sappiness and cheesiness doesn't help either...


----------



## r33per

Lukhas said:


> Much like LaBrie, I prefer his solo work as far as the last decade goes; even though I love Octavarium.
> 
> I think I've said this before in this thread, but Along For The Ride has to be my least favourite DT song; mostly because of *that *solo. The sappiness and cheesiness doesn't help either...


Couldn't remember that one so went back to listen to it. Wish i hadn't.


----------



## Lukhas

r33per said:


> Couldn't remember that one so went back to listen to it. Wish i hadn't.


I hereby solemnly apologize for the inconvenience. I didn't expect anyone to actually go and listen to it.


----------



## r33per

Lukhas said:


> I hereby solemnly apologize for the inconvenience. I didn't expect anyone to actually go and listen to it.


Oooh - suckered!


----------



## Avedas

I don't actually mind Jordan's Peruvian panflute simulator that much. Sawtooth shredding at 200 bpm is far worse. Any time he stops all that bullshit and just plays piano is excellent though.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

I like the carnival sounds


----------



## A-Branger

the thing with SFAM album is that they kept the whole concept trough, not only a linear story/lyrics but on music aswell. If you have played most of the songs like I have or at least pay little attention you would notice the similarities of that whole album with Metropolis pt1, and then in that album the Overture, its an actual Overture, it includes everything that would come next, a little highlight of whats to come, and every song has some music connection to the other songs, either by melodies of chord progressions.

they did a similar thing with the Overture in 6degrees (my favourite album, and song after Octavarium), although the rest of the songs kinda took their own path for most of it until the gran finale.

which is something they failed to accomplish with the Antonishing.... or if they did I havent notice as I can only deal with 3/4 songs in the whole 2 cds.... Same with other bands like Periphery with their "rock opera" double album thing (love that band except that album tho).... everything gets lost, and theres no conection between sogns... there is, but its hard to grasp. And like Antoshinig (or whatever way to write it)... it woud have been an amazing album if they took the best out of the two CDs into jsut one


----------



## Lukhas

A-Branger said:


> the thing with SFAM album is that they kept the whole concept trough, not only a linear story/lyrics but on music aswell. If you have played most of the songs like I have or at least pay little attention you would notice the similarities of that whole album with Metropolis pt1, and then in that album the Overture, its an actual Overture, it includes everything that would come next, a little highlight of whats to come, and every song has some music connection to the other songs, either by melodies of chord progressions.
> 
> they did a similar thing with the Overture in 6degrees (my favourite album, and song after Octavarium), although the rest of the songs kinda took their own path for most of it until the gran finale.
> 
> which is something they failed to accomplish with the Antonishing.... or if they did I havent notice as I can only deal with 3/4 songs in the whole 2 cds.... Same with other bands like Periphery with their "rock opera" double album thing (love that band except that album tho).... everything gets lost, and theres no conection between sogns... there is, but its hard to grasp. And like Antoshinig (or whatever way to write it)... it woud have been an amazing album if they took the best out of the two CDs into jsut one


I'm studying music in college (or failing to study music in college to be more accurate)... and it's often like that in big music pieces: a main theme gets composed, and then it gets re-used in very different fashions. It also works for music movie scores: for example, the theme for Gilderoy Lockart is essentially a variation on the main theme for the Harry Potter movie series. It's hard enough to write one good theme or leitmotif, nevermind writing several ones for a single piece, movie or album. And if you can re-use it in different movies series, all the better.. It allows some nice Easter Egg content for those who actually pay attention to the variations and quotations... Like this one. The cool thing is that it can easily be more interpreted as depth rather than just "recycling because you're out of ideas".



As for Dream Theater SFAM, 6DOIT, Octavarium, are albums where most songs have a connection through a main theme. I won't say too much about whether the Astonishing has that or not since I remember too little about the whole album...


----------



## Exchanger

Lukhas said:


> The cool thing is that it can easily be more interpreted as depth rather than just "recycling because you're out of ideas".



The difference is in the ability to re-use the line in a different context and not just copy paste the whole passage. John Williams is a good example and the excerpt above makes it really obvious. It's clearly the motive from the Imperial March but in a very peaceful gentle resolution. It's the same ntoes but over different chords that give a completely different emotion to it. That's the real skill there. 

If you like musically coherent concept albums, I'd recommend Haken's Aquarius.


----------



## Lukhas

Exchanger said:


> If you like musically coherent concept albums, I'd recommend Haken's Aquarius.


The Haken hype train has long left the station... and I'm already on it, albeit in the last wagon.  I didn't enjoy Affinity as much as I would've wanted to, but I still have a high opinion of the rest of the discography and of the band itself of course.


----------



## wat

A-Branger said:


> the thing with SFAM album is that they kept the whole concept trough, not only a linear story/lyrics but on music aswell. If you have played most of the songs like I have or at least pay little attention you would notice the similarities of that whole album with Metropolis pt1, and then in that album the Overture, its an actual Overture, it includes everything that would come next, a little highlight of whats to come, and every song has some music connection to the other songs, either by melodies of chord progressions.
> 
> they did a similar thing with the Overture in 6degrees (my favourite album, and song after Octavarium), although the rest of the songs kinda took their own path for most of it until the gran finale.
> 
> which is something they failed to accomplish with the Antonishing.... or if they did I havent notice as I can only deal with 3/4 songs in the whole 2 cds.... Same with other bands like Periphery with their "rock opera" double album thing (love that band except that album tho).... everything gets lost, and theres no conection between sogns... there is, but its hard to grasp. And like Antoshinig (or whatever way to write it)... it woud have been an amazing album if they took the best out of the two CDs into jsut one





One really awesome but subtle example of them doing that is in this little hi-hat groove in the song "Home" at 2:32


It's the same pattern as the staccato thing that fades in at the beginning of Overture 1928, which of course is also one the verse riffs of Metropolis Pt. 1


----------



## Exchanger

Lukhas said:


> The Haken hype train has long left the station... and I'm already on it, albeit in the last wagon.  I didn't enjoy Affinity as much as I would've wanted to, but I still have a high opinion of the rest of the discography and of the band itself of course.



Well I was already a fan in 2010 and I'm gonna sound like an old asshole but fuck it, some of the newer fans in the community really get under my skin, so the hype train can suck it. I just think Aquarius is a very good example of musical coherence through an album (the other full lengths also have it but it's less prominent). Affinity is also the one I like the least (still a very good album nonetheless) and I then tend to recommend the earlier material.


----------



## wankerness

Lukhas said:


> I'm studying music in college (or failing to study music in college to be more accurate)... and it's often like that in big music pieces: a main theme gets composed, and then it gets re-used in very different fashions. It also works for music movie scores: for example, the theme for Gilderoy Lockart is essentially a variation on the main theme for the Harry Potter movie series. It's hard enough to write one good theme or leitmotif, nevermind writing several ones for a single piece, movie or album. And if you can re-use it in different movies series, all the better.. It allows some nice Easter Egg content for those who actually pay attention to the variations and quotations... Like this one. The cool thing is that it can easily be more interpreted as depth rather than just "recycling because you're out of ideas".
> 
> 
> 
> As for Dream Theater SFAM, 6DOIT, Octavarium, are albums where most songs have a connection through a main theme. I won't say too much about whether the Astonishing has that or not since I remember too little about the whole album...




IMO keep anything related to the Star Wars prequels out of academic work, we don't want to legitimize them!!! 

When I saw "Imperial March" in this thread, I immediately thought of the intro to War Inside My Head. I love the second disc of SDOIT, but man...that track, especially the intro with the laughable brass patch, is embarrassing.


----------



## Lukhas

wankerness said:


> IMO keep anything related to the Star Wars prequels out of academic work, we don't want to legitimize them!!!


I ain't like that, I can sort out the good from the, well, "you-know-what". And the score is good at the very least, or at least some pieces of it... Just like you did with the War Inside My Head when compared to the rest of the title track.


----------



## wankerness

I was mostly kidding. But, what else in the scores to the prequels was good? I can recall only blips of it. I mean, at least the romance theme in Attack of the Clones was pretty good compared to the movie (and "REY'S THEME" from Episode VII). And everyone likes to jizz all over Duel of the Fates for some reason. But I can't remember anything else from those three movies?

ROTJ is one of my favorite scores ever


----------



## scrub

Man, I love "Home"


----------



## wat

scrub said:


> Man, I love "Home"




Yep, I remember that song blowing my mind the first I heard it as a teen, especially the shreddy pre-chorus and the chorus. And especially Petrucci's lead and the final chorus that comes after. Just really powerful stuff.


----------



## wat

scrub said:


> Man, I love "Home"




Yep, I remember that song blowing my mind the first I heard it as a teen, especially the shreddy pre-chorus and the chorus. And especially Petrucci's lead and the final chorus that comes after. Just really powerful stuff.


----------



## r33per

wat said:


> Yep, I remember that song blowing my mind the first I heard it as a teen, especially the shreddy pre-chorus and the chorus. And especially Petrucci's lead and the final chorus that comes after. Just really powerful stuff.


Ditto. I'd never heard anything like that album before. Loved the musical and lyrical motifs.

Also, playing that D Lydian section at the start of Overture 1928 through a cranked Mesa Triaxis & 2:90 always plants a smile on my face. Rockin'


----------



## Exchanger

wankerness said:


> I was mostly kidding. But, what else in the scores to the prequels was good? I can recall only blips of it. I mean, at least the romance theme in Attack of the Clones was pretty good compared to the movie (and "REY'S THEME" from Episode VII). And everyone likes to jizz all over Duel of the Fates for some reason. But I can't remember anything else from those three movies?
> 
> ROTJ is one of my favorite scores ever



There are so many nice themes and climaxes in the prequel ! Some invasion / battle scenes on Naboo, the pod race, the ones you mentionned, the city chase scene in Coruscant (because it's very exotic comapred to the rest), the opening scene to episode III, Grievous' themes, the final duel... ROTJ's sountrack has some awesome parts too (when the choirs come in as Luke gets fierce with the ligthsaber)...too bad that just like the movie itself it got spoiled by the darn ewoks. But I think I'd put ESB over it. All the variations on the Imperial theme, the search party for Luke, the final scenes on Bespin...so much dramatic tension.


----------



## scrub

wat said:


> Yep, I remember that song blowing my mind the first I heard it as a teen, especially the shreddy pre-chorus and the chorus. And especially Petrucci's lead and the final chorus that comes after. Just really powerful stuff.



Absolutely. And the sitar (I think is a sitar sound?)/guitar unison section at the very end? The way it builds up? Man, that section still gives me goosebumps.


----------



## Lukhas

Doubt it's anything new to those who follow the band closely enough, but Mike Mangini might, maybe, perhaps, with crossed fingers, get a decent snare sound on the next record!


----------



## wat

r33per said:


> Ditto. I'd never heard anything like that album before. Loved the musical and lyrical motifs.
> 
> Also, playing that D Lydian section at the start of Overture 1928 through a cranked Mesa Triaxis & 2:90 always plants a smile on my face. Rockin'



Yeah, SFAM was my introduction to dream theater as a teen and all those really powerful moments on that album like the choruses to home, Petrucci's leads in Overture 1928, etc, really floored me and I hadn't heard anything like that before and that was my favorite thin about that album. 

The next album I got was "Awake" and I was actually disappointed at first because it was so different from SFAM. But then it didn't take me long to begin to adore Awake as well. Same with Images & Words and A change of seasons.


----------



## groverj3

Lukhas said:


> Doubt it's anything new to those who follow the band closely enough, but Mike Mangini might, maybe, perhaps, with crossed fingers, get a decent snare sound on the next record!



Even more interesting, he might actually have some creative input. I love the band, but the past three albums have been the JP and JR show.


----------



## Soya

Lukhas said:


> Doubt it's anything new to those who follow the band closely enough, but Mike Mangini might, maybe, perhaps, with crossed fingers, get a decent snare sound on the next record!



Nah, they'll cut out the audio and sample a wet pizza box like usual.


----------



## Kaura

Just noticed that Panic Attack is the most popular track of their on Spotify. It's a good song but not that good, imo. 

On the other hand, I've been listening to Wither on repeat for a couple of days. Used to hate that song but now I love it. Surprised that it's not on the top-10 list since it's so radio-friendly.


----------



## Avedas

Kaura said:


> Just noticed that Panic Attack is the most popular track of their on Spotify. It's a good song but not that good, imo.


Rock Band.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Avedas said:


> Rock Band.


Yup. Sucks because there's better songs on that album, like The Root Of All Evil. Hell I think Systematic Chaos released a year before so they could have used Constant Motion or The Dark Eternal Night.


----------



## p0ke

Lukhas said:


> Doubt it's anything new to those who follow the band closely enough, but Mike Mangini might, maybe, perhaps, with crossed fingers, get a decent snare sound on the next record!




Hmm, that riff he was recording there sounded pretty interesting, I hope there's plenty of that kind of vibe on the album. I just checked out the Rush cover they did a while ago - the mix on that was pretty much perfect, I hope the album will sound similar. Apart from the vocals though, especially the higher parts sounded very forced. It'd be great if they just let James sing a bit lower, as that clearly still works for him.


----------



## A-Branger

scrub said:


> Man, I love "Home"


me too bro, me too


----------



## p0ke

I love Home too! I had to find and check it out to realize which song it was though, as I usually just listen to full albums without knowing which individual song is playing


----------



## fps

I'm worried for the drums we'll have another album where they're either playing something fairly straightforward and basic during verses/ riffs, or then really technical and twiddlydiddly (can you tell I'm not a drummer?) on the bits where the guitars are doing the same. Portnoy was fantastic at introducing different rhythm shifts and surprising emphases into riffs and sections where most drummers would coast. Mangini, extraordinary player though he is, I don't feel he writes parts which add that interest to sections.


----------



## p0ke

fps said:


> I'm worried for the drums we'll have another album where they're either playing something fairly straightforward and basic during verses/ riffs, or then really technical and twiddlydiddly (can you tell I'm not a drummer?) on the bits where the guitars are doing the same. Portnoy was fantastic at introducing different rhythm shifts and surprising emphases into riffs and sections where most drummers would coast. Mangini, extraordinary player though he is, I don't feel he writes parts which add that interest to sections.



I guess it depends on the songs a lot too. You can't do anything over anything if you know what I mean  Also I guess Mangini hasn't had much creative input, so the drums are more likely to be composed by JP and are mostly just holding the compositions together. Fingers crossed he'll have at least some input this time around.


----------



## Ben Pinkus

^

I know on a dramatic turn of events album it was written by JP. But assumed after that Mike was in the writing/creative process and would have come up with his own stuff for self titled and astonishing


----------



## Lukhas

Ben Pinkus said:


> ^
> 
> I know on a dramatic turn of events album it was written by JP. But assumed after that Mike was in the writing/creative process and would have come up with his own stuff for self titled and astonishing


Nope, he wasn't. He has hinted or outright expressed his frustration about it in the past. "The Astonishing" is basically all JP with some Rudess, DT12 was meant to be a "summation" album that was taking things left and right from their whole career... although hardly anything on it could've been on their first records. 

I think it was this interview, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Ben Pinkus

^ Oh really, well thats a shame. Interested to see what vibe the new album will be


----------



## Exchanger

While I was disappointed by his works on the albums (but in great part due to production issue), this guy is so much more likeable than Portnoy. More mature and dedicated to others more than himself, trying to be a positive force (and a total nerd ). I can see why they picked him : he has the technique and almost no ego (it's a recurring pattern with DT I guess). I hope he can shine through in the next albums (both in writing and sound production). He does sound frustrated at times in this interview.


----------



## p0ke

Exchanger said:


> While I was disappointed by his works on the albums (but in great part due to production issue), this guy is so much more likeable than Portnoy. More mature and dedicated to others more than himself, trying to be a positive force (and a total nerd ). I can see why they picked him : he has the technique and almost no ego (it's a recurring pattern with DT I guess). I hope he can shine through in the next albums (both in writing and sound production). He does sound frustrated at times in this interview.



Yep, he does sound quite frustrated. And yeah, the new albums sound like they could have programmed drums instead of Mangini playing, unfortunately... I don't know about The Astonishing as my attention span just doesn't cut it 
But yeah, I've said it a bunch of times but fingers crossed he'll be able to contribute at some point. Seems like a huge waste of talent otherwise.

Oh and yeah, I always thought MP was annoying somehow.


----------



## Exchanger

He's endearing when he talks about his passion for music and DT and some of his tragic experiences, but some other times he comes across as an immature and careless teenager.


----------



## DLG

Mangini is a studio guy who plays other people's music. 

That's all he has ever been. why would anyone expect him to become a creative for now?


----------



## fps

p0ke said:


> I guess it depends on the songs a lot too. You can't do anything over anything if you know what I mean  Also I guess Mangini hasn't had much creative input, so the drums are more likely to be composed by JP and are mostly just holding the compositions together. Fingers crossed he'll have at least some input this time around.



Portnoy was able to change up rhythms on things really well. Maybe a strange comparison in some ways but the Mudvayne drummer on LD50 especially was very good at this too, suddenly hitting a different beat or angle. 

I'm not sure Mangini's being given much of a creative voice, but also not sure what he'd do with it, as he hasn't been given that creative space that Portnoy carved out for himself - and it feels like DT is very much a band where you have to fight for your space.


----------



## bostjan

Matthew McDonough? I believe he was the only drummer Mudvayne ever had. He's got a similar personality to Portnoy, in some ways. I always got the feeling Mangini was a technician, whereas Portnoy was a creative force. Like anything else, you want the proper tools for the job, and when it comes to songwriting, a creative genius is going to work out better than a technical genius. I actually think that Mangini is not beyond the technical level of Portnoy anyway, but he seems to be maybe more of a corporate-style team player.


----------



## wankerness

I'm pretty sure that if they wanted a creative voice they would have hired one. He got Newstead'd.

Well, maybe, I know Jason eventually got creative and broke out.

IIRC the drummer from LD 50 wrote a bunch of their stuff. Him and the bassist are definitely the ones that kept the songs alive, that guitarist was AWFUL. Their live DVD of that album is shocking.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

I never really understood the technical side of the Portnoy vs. Mangini argument, or at least the relevance of it in any case. Both he and Portnoy have a skill ceiling so high that none of the music Dream Theater plays is going to touch it. It'd be a bit like saying Andy James would be a good replacement for John Petrucci just because he can play certain things faster or cleaner; with Dream Theater, the musical direction has always made the upper extremities of those technical limits a little useless. I think that's true of both Mikes. 

It's also worth noting that the discussion of musical input isn't 1:1 here either. Portnoy was co-producer of all of DT's albums along with Petrucci, and thus was responsible not only for his drum parts and whatever songs he wrote, but the creative direction of entire albums as well. Maybe that meant he had a bit of a stranglehold on the band--I know some fans feel that way. But all I'm saying is that this was probably Portnoy's greater contribution to Dream Theater. The fact that he was the guy behind the kit who could actually play all this crazy music they were writing was incidental. 

I do think Portnoy's personality worked against him, though. He was always seen as brash, pushy, and perhaps egotistical. So there was always this assumption he was stifling certain members or musical ideas in Dream Theater rather than any other member. On the other hand, Petrucci is soft-spoken, kind, and inoffensive...very few have argued he was as controlling as Portnoy was over the band's direction and sound. But given all that has transpired since Portnoy's departure, I wonder if much of that is actually true, i.e. if appearances really are everything.


----------



## bostjan

From my perspective as a fan, I noted several times that Portnoy was the most extroverted and willing to interact with fans at shows. I could see how that might be taken as being brash and controlling; likewise, I can also sort of see how being brash and controlling might be taken by fans as being extroverted and open with fans.

Being that Portnoy has worked with scores of other professional musicians in dozens of projects, his talent-to-drama ratio must be much greater than one. But yeah, he does seem to get into trouble with his off-the-cuff remarks quite often.



wankerness said:


> I'm pretty sure that if they wanted a creative voice they would have hired one. He got Newstead'd.
> 
> Well, maybe, I know Jason eventually got creative and broke out.
> 
> IIRC the drummer from LD 50 wrote a bunch of their stuff. Him and the bassist are definitely the ones that kept the songs alive, that guitarist was AWFUL. Their live DVD of that album is shocking.



"Newstead'd"  I think the just about sums it all up.

For me, Ryan was the real star of Mudvayne. That guy is a phenomenal player and seemed super down-to-earth. I have no idea what he's been up to since Mudvayne split up, though. Going along with what you've been saying, learning a Mudvayne song on anything other than guitar is difficulty level 7 or 8, but, on guitar maybe 2 or 3. That's nothing against anyone in the band, I think, since skill requirement to play <> how good a song is.


----------



## fps

bostjan said:


> "Newstead'd"  I think the just about sums it all up.
> 
> For me, Ryan was the real star of Mudvayne. That guy is a phenomenal player and seemed super down-to-earth. I have no idea what he's been up to since Mudvayne split up, though. Going along with what you've been saying, learning a Mudvayne song on anything other than guitar is difficulty level 7 or 8, but, on guitar maybe 2 or 3. That's nothing against anyone in the band, I think, since skill requirement to play <> how good a song is.



Released an amaaaazing album with his band Soften The Glare, last year I think - check it out, tasty playing.


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> He got Newstead'd.



 Yeah, true. But I still hope he'd get more involved in the writing process. He'll never be carving out directions for whole albums like MP, but I'm sure he could at least make some parts more interesting. I really enjoyed watching the videos where they're composing Train of Though - the whole band would jam some riff and then stop and throw some ideas around on how the song could progress and then keep going until the song was finished. I thought that was how they always do it, but apparently I was wrong...


----------



## p0ke

By the way. I really don't understand all the hate for Train of Thought. It's different and I guess less progressive than their other albums, but I really like most of it anyway...

I don't recall anyone hating on it here, but it wasn't a long time ago that I read a review (scored 2/10) where it was stated that they're just pretentiously trying to be Metallica and that's it - that kind of review are all over the place. I just don't get it, because like I said, I really like the album ...


----------



## tedtan

I like Train of Thought, too, though it is a bit different from the rest of their catalogue.


----------



## scrub

special place in my heart for Train of Thought..my first introduction to Dream Theater.


----------



## wat

I like train of thought but it's one of those albums fo me where some 9f the otherwise best songs have parts that I just want to skip. the shreddy unison sections like in This Dying Soul and In the Name Of God are just grating to the ears for me. Possibly some of the most unnecessary and unnecessarily long shredding sections in their discography, IMO.

That and the rapping vocals (I forget which song) 

But goddamn that album had some epic choruses and riffs.


----------



## bostjan

_Train of Thought_ impressed me when I first picked it up. "In the Name of God" is probably my favourite DT song. It's so poignant and only becoming more relevant every day as political and religious extremism keep gathering more and more momentum. The band cleverly wove together a tapestry of world music influences and emotional lyrics with blistering solos and spacey interludes. It's truly a masterpiece. ...and then there's 5:51, holy shit, is Portnoy playing morse code on his hihats?! ..-----.--.-.......--.-..-....-.-...-.......-----.--.-.......--.-..-....-.-...-..... Sure sounds like morse code [_gets out morse code book_] No spaces between letters, though, making this a bit of a puzzle...

Check it out guys:


starting at 5:51

First letter is either E (.), I (..), or U (..-). Second letter is either e, a, w, j, t, m, or o, depending on what the first letter is. Third letter makes it start out either Eet, Eem, Eeo, Eat, Eam, Eao, Ewt, Ewm, Ewo, Ejt, Ejm, Ejg, Ejq, Itt, Itm Ito, Imt, Imm, Imo, Iot, Iom, Iog, Ioq, Utt, Utm, Uto, Umt, Umm, Umg, or Umq...

"UOYLHPXHCFHE" maybe..., no, that doesn't mean anything... "IT ON MY SUNDBRN" ... no ... "EAT MY BALLS AND ASS" ... 

...



God Dammit!


----------



## eightsixboy

I don't know why anyone would hate on TOT, its such a great album. Yea its different, but so are almost all there albums.

I watched the series of the drummer auditions again last weekend, make me wonder what would have happened if they picked Wildoer instead, I like Mangini but after seeing him live a couple of times now they may as well have had a drum machine with a cut out in his seat, maybe that's a little harsh but he is just soooooo robotic to listen to. Don't know if anyone would agree but I think Mangini should go back to a much simpler kit, its like yeah we get he can do all these crazy things with his hands but I would love to see him just play like a "regular" drummer for once, actually get some feeling and groove in his playing.


----------



## Avedas

ToT is alright, but most the songs are longer than they need to be with a bit too much gratuitous wanking. I bet James got to take half of every night off on the ToT tour though.


----------



## The Mirror

Avedas said:


> ToT is alright, but most the songs are longer than they need to be with a bit too much gratuitous wanking. I bet James got to take half of every night off on the ToT tour though.



Yep, I agree. ToT was the first big step (after 6DoiT did it in a much smaller scale) towards DT clearly writing Instrumental parts by-the-numbers and just for the sake of it.

Honor Thy Father should at least be 4 minutes short, Endless Sacrifice should be 4 minutes long in it's entirety. Period.

Those two are no longer songs, they are a basis to start guitar/keyboard lead duels.

Just compare that to (yeah, what else) Awake.

What is the longest pure guitar/keyboard shredding part in that? Probably Lie with 2 or 3 minutes (still with vocals between the lead parts).

ToT was the first record that lost the balance between melody, vocals and shredding.

So, this is my answer to all you guys why I don't really like the record itself.

Cut 10-15 minutes of runtime from it and you still have a very proggy metal record that doesn't feel tedious.


----------



## Lukhas

Avedas said:


> ToT is alright, but most the songs are longer than they need to be with a bit too much gratuitous wanking. I bet James got to take half of every night off on the ToT tour though.


The thing about that is while I don't care about the album at all by itself, I think that on tour and during shows it makes for impressive displays of ability on their respective instruments. Basically I think it works well on tour, especially with a visual representation of how impressive it is, but not by itself on the album. On the records I find it very tiring. That said, it's been a while since John Petrucci especially has displayed as much subtlety in his playing as he did in the mid 90's. Taking for example the extra long solo during "To Live Forever" during the live in Tokyo in 1993. It starts are roughly 33:11.



Time marches on and can't expect everything to remain the same... nor I think they can still do it at all. The few examples of very sappy ballads they've written on the recent records show that all too well.


----------



## p0ke

The Mirror said:


> Yep, I agree. ToT was the first big step (after 6DoiT did it in a much smaller scale) towards DT clearly writing Instrumental parts by-the-numbers and just for the sake of it.



Yep, I agree some of the instrumental parts feel unnecessary, but that's not even what people usually complain about with the album. People usually whine about them trying to be heavier than usual and not making it work, which I disagree to completely. I mean, yeah, if you only heard As I am, you could say it sounds like they're trying to get rid of the prog elements altogether and just be Metal, but the rest of the album is definitely more progressive.

Personally, I don't even mind the wanking apart from the times when the unison parts go into flight of the bumblebee -mode


----------



## Avedas

It's all awesome to watch live, but I think I only see DT once every 5 years or so lol


----------



## Andrew Lloyd Webber

I haven’t checked the band out since _Live at Luna Park_: 

Do they still sound like a bad Dream Theater cover band made up of old men? 

Did Mangini ever start phoning it in? 

Does LaBrie look _even more _like Cleve Hall now? 

Does Petrucci still give updates for new albums where he’s like “It’s coming together wonderfully. We’re really challenging ourselves; and this is as good as anything we’ve ever done. Fans can expect some truly epic pieces, and James is sounding better than ever. We can’t wait to show the world. I’m using my new model Music Man on the album.”?


----------



## scrub

too much shredding? This does not compute


----------



## bostjan

scrub said:


> too much shredding? This does not compute


Ha ha, yeah, I heard what you are saying there.

But Dream Theater is like a salad. The shredding is like the lettuce - if you've ever had salad, you know salad has lettuce. Likewise, if you ever heard Dream Theater, you know that they have shredding. But to me, DT is more than just shredding. So, like how a salad has lettuce mixed with other vegetables and sometimes savory fruits, DT has shredding mixed with other stuff like: odd-time grooves, storytelling, corny lyrics, that headbanging part of the song everyone thinks they can headbang to-except that it's in some stupid time signature like 69/64 so you can't actually headbang to it, and an inappropriately-timed carnival music or simpson's theme song quote in an otherwise-serious song.

Then they have a song like "Cover My Eyes," which has none of those things, and basically sounds like a regular band playing a regular song, but it never made it on any of the official album releases, so I guess it doesn't count.


----------



## scrub

i guess i just really really love lettuce.


----------



## r33per

scrub said:


> i guess i just really really love lettuce.


Our local kebab shop serves shredded lettuce with the chicken kebabs. That explains why it tastes so good.


----------



## tedtan

bostjan said:


> if you ever heard Dream Theater, you know that they have... corny lyrics... and an inappropriately-timed carnival music



This sums their last several albums up quite nicely.


----------



## A-Branger

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Does Petrucci still give updates for new albums where he’s like “It’s coming together wonderfully. We’re really challenging ourselves; and this is as good as anything we’ve ever done. Fans can expect some truly epic pieces, and James is sounding better than ever. We can’t wait to show the world. I’m using my new model Music Man on the album.”?



says every band to every new release album ever

funny when few years and 1-2 albums later you see a interview of them again and they go "we were on a bad place in that album, we knew it was shit blah blah, donno waht happened.... but this new album however..."


----------



## Ralyks

A-Branger said:


> says every band to every new release album ever



Actually, that's basically verbatim what Petrucci would say


----------



## p0ke

A-Branger said:


> says every band to every new release album ever



Yeah, well, why would anyone not say their new album is their best so far? Although, I guess they could say something like "we're focusing on the progressive stuff this time instead of trying to be heavy af" (or the other way around) instead of trying to convince everyone that the album simply has more everything  
A good selling point they could use would be "it has less carnival music"


----------



## Lukhas

p0ke said:


> Yeah, well, why would anyone not say their new album is their best so far? Although, I guess they could say something like "we're focusing on the progressive stuff this time instead of trying to be heavy af" (or the other way around) instead of trying to convince everyone that the album simply has more everything
> A good selling point they could use would be "it has less carnival music"


"It's a full band effort."

Oh wait, they did use that one for the upcoming record. #Manginiwasright


----------



## fps

The "five pillars of Dream Theater", as John called them in an interview, are that the music be "
*'Heavy,' 'Progressive,' 'Melodic,' 'Shredding' And 'Epic'*"

But missing from this are things like "songwriting" and "hooks". They can write anything, play anything, but need to get a bit of songwriting craft back.


----------



## Lukhas

Here's some JP/Rudess bromance.


----------



## JSanta

I've been on a big DT kick the last couple of weeks - they were my favorite band for the better part of 15 years. To me, (and I want to make that qualification), nothing has been as good since MP left. The Astonishing has been played a grand total of two times, and the second time was to really make sure my feelings about the first listen were correct. I think the band needs to take time off and get away from DT for a while. I feel like the vision behind the music is kind of gone - and I feel like that was starting to happen near the end of the MP era as well. They're probably still my favorite band, but I haven't obsessed over the material in the same ways as I did 10 years ago.


----------



## Coryd

JSanta said:


> I've been on a big DT kick the last couple of weeks - they were my favorite band for the better part of 15 years. To me, (and I want to make that qualification), nothing has been as good since MP left. The Astonishing has been played a grand total of two times, and the second time was to really make sure my feelings about the first listen were correct. I think the band needs to take time off and get away from DT for a while. I feel like the vision behind the music is kind of gone - and I feel like that was starting to happen near the end of the MP era as well. They're probably still my favorite band, but I haven't obsessed over the material in the same ways as I did 10 years ago.



This.

I love Mike Mangini's playing. I think he did amazing on James Labrie's Elements of Persuasion album. I can't quite put my finger on why, but after Portnoy left...I really lost interest in the music they have made.


----------



## p0ke

Just to awaken this thread again: I just checked out their Facebook-page, and apparently the last bits of recording were finished roughly a month ago. The snippets I've heard sound pretty cool, so I'm definitely looking forward to it.


----------



## musicman61554

p0ke said:


> Just to awaken this thread again: I just checked out their Facebook-page, and apparently the last bits of recording were finished roughly a month ago. The snippets I've heard sound pretty cool, so I'm definitely looking forward to it.



Sweet maybe a single can drop soon!!!!!!


----------



## ArtDecade




----------



## p0ke

musicman61554 said:


> Sweet maybe a single can drop soon!!!!!!



I certainly hope so!


----------



## electriceye

Their last album was the final straw for me. It was appallingly bad. Like a Cirque du Soleil rejected soundtrack. If you want a great prog band, check out Teramaze instead.


----------



## p0ke




----------



## Kaura

p0ke said:


>




Drums sounds pretty great. In fact, the whole mix does!


----------



## wankerness

What about like, the notes?


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

I like it surprisingly a lot. Gives me a the vibe of octavarium mixed with train of thought. 

I don't know that I'll be able to really get into their music again until they bring portnoy back, but that has less to do with the music than it does wanting my heroes back together again. Their self titled album was fantastic even without him and while I don't much care for the astonishing as a whole, I still respect them for trying it. 

But then I listen to Awake and SFAM and I'm like "oh... Right"


----------



## fps

p0ke said:


>




Even in that short clip, you can still hear how the drums are mirroring the riff rather than playing off it.

Drum sound still annoying.


----------



## BenjaminW

I'm fuckin hyped for this new album.


----------



## Razerjack

Doesn't look/sound too promising or inspiring. Along with the fact that their next tour will be another '20th anniversary of classic album' tour, there are signs that DT is losing their creative drive and is instead banking on past success, which is okay if you're Def Leppard, but as an icon of 'progressive' metal it's painful to watch. Loved the self-titled album though.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Razerjack said:


> Doesn't look/sound too promising or inspiring. Along with the fact that their next tour will be another '20th anniversary of classic album' tour, there are signs that DT is losing their creative drive and is instead banking on past success, which is okay if you're Def Leppard, but as an icon of 'progressive' metal it's painful to watch. Loved the self-titled album though.



I sort of get that vibe too. That said I would LOVE the chance to see the entirety of SFAM live.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Judging a Dream Theater song from a 30 second clip seems silly.


----------



## p0ke

Yeah, can't really say much about it after such a short clip, other than that they definitely have my attention at this point.


----------



## technomancer

Captain Butterscotch said:


> Judging a Dream Theater song from a 30 second clip seems silly.



This is the internet critic crew... it could have just been a track list and they would have critiqued the band based off of it and we would have gotten at least one post about Portnoy


----------



## musicman61554

I think the clip sounds great. Mix is sounding awesome too.


----------



## Exchanger

I kinda like it but it's a bit short to do any pronostics about the whole album's writing.

I'm gonna disagree with the mix though, it's not bad, but it's still this weird sound they had from DT13 on.


----------



## A-Branger

but the question everyone is asking here

would JP 8 string?...... and would he djent?


and yeah I know they would never do fully dj0nt!! d-d-d-d-d-0nt!....... but I bet they would incorporate one riff at one point, closing the full circle of prog metal... and it would be awesome and you know it


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

A-Branger said:


> but the question everyone is asking here
> 
> would JP 8 string?...... and would he djent?
> 
> 
> and yeah I know they would never do fully dj0nt!! d-d-d-d-d-0nt!....... but I bet they would incorporate one riff at one point, closing the full circle of prog metal... and it would be awesome and you know it


Would love to hear him do his own take on some of the cleanish dj0nting tosin abasi uses.


----------



## p0ke

A-Branger said:


> it would be awesome and you know it



Yep. I don't even really care for djent or 8-strings (although I'm sort of gassing for one  ) but JP doing it? It'd be awesome for sure.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Imagine djenty riffs mixed with buttery leads.


----------



## scrub

Petrucci "this is the best sounding DT album we've ever made". Blabbermouth article.


----------



## Xiphos68

A-Branger said:


> but the question everyone is asking here
> 
> would JP 8 string?...... and would he djent?
> 
> 
> and yeah I know they would never do fully dj0nt!! d-d-d-d-d-0nt!....... but I bet they would incorporate one riff at one point, closing the full circle of prog metal... and it would be awesome and you know it



Apparently he said in the past three to four years that he had been developing a EB MusicMan 8 string, though there have been no posts or anything regarding it in quite a while, sadly.

Then again, he was developing the Majesty forever too. Though I don't particularly care for it. 

Anyway, new album is sounding sick, I am hoping they finally let Mangini contribute some writings. Glad the mix is finally fixed, because it has sucked for the past few albums with the exception of "The Astonishing," but as an album, that one is lacking massively.


----------



## mastapimp

A-Branger said:


> but the question everyone is asking here
> 
> would JP 8 string?...... and would he djent?
> 
> 
> and yeah I know they would never do fully dj0nt!! d-d-d-d-d-0nt!....... but I bet they would incorporate one riff at one point, closing the full circle of prog metal... and it would be awesome and you know it



Maybe Jordan is handling the 8-string duties with his new sig. http://geargods.net/news/dream-theater-jordan-rudess-druzkowski-guitar/


----------



## musicman61554

mastapimp said:


> Maybe Jordan is handling the 8-string duties with his new sig. http://geargods.net/news/dream-theater-jordan-rudess-druzkowski-guitar/



I have a feeling the cost of that is beastly


----------



## A-Branger

mastapimp said:


> Maybe Jordan is handling the 8-string duties with his new sig. http://geargods.net/news/dream-theater-jordan-rudess-druzkowski-guitar/



yeah I saw that ages ago, makes me wonder why JP havent got his yet(maybe he has tho). But it gives me hope in that if JR has one, JP would have pick it up to test some stuff. And who knows we might see some cool riffs with two gutiars in this album?, and going by the keyboard background of JR, he might approach the intrument in a way different way (maybe reason why the 8 string as hes used to ahve extra range), so yeh, would see, looking forward to it


----------



## lurè

I really want a DT 8 string song just so I can hope for an Illuminator 8 string pickup.


----------



## lurè

there's something going on on their YT channel, some songs are uploaded.

Edit: lol trolls


----------



## p0ke

lurè said:


> there's something going on on their YT channel, some songs are uploaded.
> 
> Edit: lol trolls



Yeah, I saw one the other day and checked it out: rickroll'd


----------



## Exchanger

lurè said:


> I really want a DT 8 string song just so I can hope for an Illuminator 8 string pickup.



I'm pretty sure it has been made, the Haken boys where using Illuminators on their 8's at some point, but indeed it doesn't appear on the DiMarzio website :/


----------



## StevenC

Exchanger said:


> I'm pretty sure it has been made, the Haken boys where using Illuminators on their 8's at some point, but indeed it doesn't appear on the DiMarzio website :/


Can't find any information on Charlie's pickups, but Richard Henshall has Ionizers in one Strandberg and M8s in the other.


----------



## Exchanger

mmmmh Ionizers, Illuminators...could be my memory is playing tricks on me.


----------



## thesnowdog




----------



## fps

thesnowdog said:


>




0:41 That moment when you're not sure when you're supposed to sing yet.


----------



## wankerness

I just listened to Black Clouds and Silver Linings for the second or third time ever, and the first time since around when it came out. It's pretty good. Unfortunately, most of the really great stuff is crammed next to overly noodly stuff. Like, especially Count of Tuscany, which has a lot of REALLY great stuff in it and could be one of their best songs, but is hamstrung by getting way too complex in uninteresting ways way too soon. Look at something like Learning to Live or Trial of Tears or A Change of Seasons or something, which manage to build up and stay musical for a long time before going off into awesome solo/instrumental sections that fully work. Then look at Count of Tuscany, which is awesome for a while and seems like it's going somewhere, but you can hear them getting more and more frustrated and needing to wank, and it keeps spurting out at inopportune moments, causing there to be some stupid tasteless measures randomly thrown in between about 2:30 and when the vocals come in. Ah well. It's still pretty good.

I really don't like when they throw in riffs from The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul on The Shattered Fortress, it seems kinda hamfisted and like "hey guys maybe this song isn't that great and you aren't liking it but HEY REMEMBER THESE OLD SONGS YOU LIKE GO FETCH and we'll wank while you're distracted *wank*"


----------



## jco5055

wankerness said:


> I just listened to Black Clouds and Silver Linings for the second or third time ever, and the first time since around when it came out. It's pretty good. Unfortunately, most of the really great stuff is crammed next to overly noodly stuff. Like, especially Count of Tuscany, which has a lot of REALLY great stuff in it and could be one of their best songs, but is hamstrung by getting way too complex in uninteresting ways way too soon. Look at something like Learning to Live or Trial of Tears or A Change of Seasons or something, which manage to build up and stay musical for a long time before going off into awesome solo/instrumental sections that fully work. Then look at Count of Tuscany, which is awesome for a while and seems like it's going somewhere, but you can hear them getting more and more frustrated and needing to wank, and it keeps spurting out at inopportune moments, causing there to be some stupid tasteless measures randomly thrown in between about 2:30 and when the vocals come in. Ah well. It's still pretty good.
> 
> I really don't like when they throw in riffs from The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul on The Shattered Fortress, it seems kinda hamfisted and like "hey guys maybe this song isn't that great and you aren't liking it but HEY REMEMBER THESE OLD SONGS YOU LIKE GO FETCH and we'll wank while you're distracted *wank*"




To each his own, I think Count is one of the all time bests they've written...not since prime Opeth has a band been able to write a sub 20 minute song and it doesn't feel long at all to me.
I even had multiple friends who HATE DT/prog/"uncool" metal etc who loved the song.


----------



## wankerness

It's easily the best song on the album, it just unfortunately also is a good display of their worst tendencies. It's probably one of the best displays, since instead of it just being a crappy song, it's a great song that's got those annoying things in it.


----------



## A-Branger

wankerness said:


> I really don't like when they throw in riffs from The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul on The Shattered Fortress,


mmmmm that was kinda the idea of the song?....... it was the culmination of the 12 step suite of Portnoy (his 12 steps of AA recovery), starting with The Glass Prisson..... So in a way is the grand finale of it, so of course its gonna make references to the other parts of the suite


----------



## Dayn

A-Branger said:


> mmmmm that was kinda the idea of the song?....... it was the culmination of the 12 step suite of Portnoy (his 12 steps of AA recovery), starting with The Glass Prisson..... So in a way is the grand finale of it, so of course its gonna make references to the other parts of the suite


Exactly. Same reason The Root of All Evil also quotes This Dying Soul, which is in turn is quoted by The Shattered Fortress.


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> It's easily the best song on the album



Sure, it's great, but I really like A Nightmare to Remember a lot too. It's got some annoying stuff in there as well, mainly the Portnoy trying to sound evil part 



Dayn said:


> Exactly. Same reason The Root of All Evil also quotes This Dying Soul, which is in turn is quoted by The Shattered Fortress.



Yep and I love those songs for that, but The Shattered Fortress is easily the worst of them. I like all the other parts, but that one just feels very forced even though it has lots of great riffs in it.


----------



## Dayn

p0ke said:


> Yep and I love those songs for that, but The Shattered Fortress is easily the worst of them. I like all the other parts, but that one just feels very forced even though it has lots of great riffs in it.


I suppose that I should also say that, as interesting as I find it, I think The Shattered Fortress is also the least strong from the suite.


----------



## Avedas

p0ke said:


> Yep and I love those songs for that, but The Shattered Fortress is easily the worst of them. I like all the other parts, but that one just feels very forced even though it has lots of great riffs in it.


Each of the 12 step songs brought something new to the table while quoting the others. The Shattered Fortress, however, sounds like a bad remix. It's the only entry that I don't really remember anything about.


----------



## wankerness

A-Branger said:


> mmmmm that was kinda the idea of the song?....... it was the culmination of the 12 step suite of Portnoy (his 12 steps of AA recovery), starting with The Glass Prisson..... So in a way is the grand finale of it, so of course its gonna make references to the other parts of the suite



Of course it wasn’t an accident, I mean they felt thrown into the middle of a mess in arbitrary locations, like an attempt to distract from the lack of decent songwriting. This Dying Soul’s quotation was fine.


----------



## Winspear

Hmm, Shattered Fortress is my favourite even as a long term fan! The climax is great


----------



## fps

I relistened to Black Clouds and Silver Linings and it's comfortably my favourite DT album since Train of Thought, with only ADTOE coming close.


----------



## Furtive Glance

BC&SL isn't in my top DT albums, but the solo at the end of _The Shattered Fortress _is near perfect IMO. Just a great way to structure a build-up.


----------



## A-Branger

Winspear said:


> Hmm, Shattered Fortress is my favourite even as a long term fan! The climax is great



except for the Glass Prison, yup, I love Shattered Fortress the most


----------



## Rock4ever

wankerness said:


> Then look at Count of Tuscany, which is awesome for a while and seems like it's going somewhere, but you can hear them getting more and more frustrated and needing to wank, and it keeps spurting out at inopportune moments, causing there to be some stupid tasteless measures randomly thrown in between about 2:30 and when the vocals come in. Ah well. It's still pretty good.
> 
> I really don't like when they throw in riffs from The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul on The Shattered Fortress, it seems kinda hamfisted and like "hey guys maybe this song isn't that great and you aren't liking it but HEY REMEMBER THESE OLD SONGS YOU LIKE GO FETCH and we'll wank while you're distracted *wank*"



My impression is they know how to get themselves into these songs but on several occasions they lack an exit strategy. My best example? Outcry on ADTOE. THE song opens with a truly epic riff, the commoners rising up and then devolves into wankery and a crape verse or 2 that aren’t cohesive with the ones that precede it.


----------



## thesnowdog




----------



## p0ke

Pt. 2 was released recently:



They're comparing the writing process to that of Train of Thought, which is awesome, I really enjoyed watching those making of videos  And it sounds like everyone's been contributing to some extent, which would be great too.


----------



## InHiding

There was a short clip released some time ago and it really sounded recycled. Petrucci should take a break from his family and start spending time developing his songwriting. The band used to be quite good, but now...


----------



## Metropolis

InHiding said:


> There was a short clip released some time ago and it really sounded recycled. Petrucci should take a break from his family and start spending time developing his songwriting. The band used to be quite good, but now...



I'm sure he's not lacking in that area at all, with that much experience... they spent in studio like 2-3 months, if that's not taking a break from other things then I don't know what is.


----------



## InHiding

Ten years


----------



## DLG

yeah John, can you take a decade-long break from your family and go to a monastery to focus on your songwriting?

InHiding from the Internet would really appreciate it if you made that sacrifice.


----------



## thesnowdog




----------



## stevewonders

Just so you know, i am an avid fan of Dream Theater way back high school!


----------



## Ralyks

Winspear said:


> Hmm, Shattered Fortress is my favourite even as a long term fan! The climax is great



A lot of people bag on that song, but for me, as someone who heard Glass Prison when Six Degrees came out and followed the 12 Step Suite all the way through, Shattered Fortress was a cathartic conclusion for me. When the intro to Glass Prison came back around to end Shattered Fortress, my.goosebumps had goosebumps. It was like the end of a long, trying, and cathartic journey.


----------



## p0ke

Ralyks said:


> A lot of people bag on that song, but for me, as someone who heard Glass Prison when Six Degrees came out and followed the 12 Step Suite all the way through, Shattered Fortress was a cathartic conclusion for me. When the intro to Glass Prison came back around to end Shattered Fortress, my.goosebumps had goosebumps. It was like the end of a long, trying, and cathartic journey.



Sure, I get that, and it has really awesome moments all around, but as one piece of music it just doesn't work IMO. I do listen to it from time to time as part of the 12 step suite playlist I've got on Spotify, but it's easily my least favorite of those songs.


----------



## Avedas

I guess I'll actually go see them next time they come around so I can see Metropolis 2 live. And there's no way the new album could be less entertaining than The Astonishing.


----------



## A-Branger

Ralyks said:


> A lot of people bag on that song, but for me, as someone who heard Glass Prison when Six Degrees came out and followed the 12 Step Suite all the way through, Shattered Fortress was a cathartic conclusion for me. When the intro to Glass Prison came back around to end Shattered Fortress, my.goosebumps had goosebumps. It was like the end of a long, trying, and cathartic journey.



same..... I still remember the first time I heard The Glass Prisson, it was at a mate's house in our drummer's car, he jsut found a internet mp3 rip of it (with a small jump on the song). and at one point I jsut sit down in the gorund with my jaw open like WTF!!.... I jsut had spend couple of years (I think), trying to learn the bass parts of Metropolis, and Awake, and I&W songs, and then he drops this monstrous bass riffs all around the song, plus hearing the guitar solos thinking to myself (poor of our guitar guy lol).

still ahvent fully learn the song. Everytime I start practicing the hard bits, I loose momentum the next day and get bored quickly. I dont ahve the power to concentrate on it like when I was 18-20



Avedas said:


> And there's no way the new album could be less entertaining than The Astonishing.



I think the Astonishing was a deliverate album, jsut to put the bar a touch too low so the next album just "boom!"


----------



## DLG

Avedas said:


> I guess I'll actually go see them next time they come around so I can see Metropolis 2 live. And there's no way the new album could be less entertaining than The Astonishing.



I saw them twice on the original Metropolis 2 tour and I think it's the first time a band is playing an "anniversary" tour of a tour I saw originally. Makes me feel old as crap 

Last time I saw DT was when they played the entire Master of Puppets in New York during the Six Degrees tour, that's about the time I stopped listening to them too. 

MoP is obviously one of the greatest albums ever, but what a boring set that was. Ruddess and Labrie obviously don't give a crap about that album, Ruddess was reading sheet music the entire time and Labrie had the lyrics on a teleprompter. Classic Portnoy "let's do something only I really want to do" moment.

Should have spent an hour playing older DT songs instead.


----------



## Kaura

DLG said:


> I saw them twice on the original Metropolis 2 tour and I think it's the first time a band is playing an "anniversary" tour of a tour I saw originally. Makes me feel old as crap
> 
> Last time I saw DT was when they played the entire Master of Puppets in New York during the Six Degrees tour, that's about the time I stopped listening to them too.
> 
> MoP is obviously one of the greatest albums ever, but what a boring set that was. Ruddess and Labrie obviously don't give a crap about that album, Ruddess was reading sheet music the entire time and Labrie had the lyrics on a teleprompter. Classic Portnoy "let's do something only I really want to do" moment.
> 
> Should have spent an hour playing older DT songs instead.



Wait, did I understand this correctly... They played Master of Puppets, the album BY METALLICA in full?


----------



## ddtonfire

Yeah, they even released it as an Official Bootleg. They did a surprisingly lackluster job on it. Would not recommend, even as a DT fanboy.


----------



## Kaura

ddtonfire said:


> Yeah, they even released it as an Official Bootleg. They did a surprisingly lackluster job on it. Would not recommend, even as a DT fanboy.



Wow, that's... progressive.


----------



## r33per

ddtonfire said:


> Yeah, they even released it as an Official Bootleg. They did a surprisingly lackluster job on it. Would not recommend, even as a DT fanboy.


Dark Side of the Moon was the same.


----------



## ddtonfire

r33per said:


> Dark Side of the Moon was the same.



I actually thought they did an awesome job on DSotM.


----------



## Ralyks

Do they even still do those official bootlegs, or was that Portnoys project?

I know in addition to those two albums, they covered Number of the Beast, which is the only one I haven't heard.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ddtonfire said:


> Yeah, they even released it as an Official Bootleg. They did a surprisingly lackluster job on it. Would not recommend, even as a DT fanboy.



Me and my hardcore DT fanboy friend listened to the entire bootleg one night. We agreed with that.  If it was an official DT release, it would probably be down there with The Astonishing in terms of boredom.

EDIT: Oh wait, it does kinda count as an official release...


----------



## ddtonfire

@Ralyks that was wholly a Portnoy project. They also did Made in Japan by Deep Purple.

@HeHasTheJazzHands I sadly agree. JR playing backup guitar on his keyboard just sounded terrible. I would even go as far to say it's Astonishing levels of cringe.


----------



## fps

Ralyks said:


> Do they even still do those official bootlegs, or was that Portnoys project?
> 
> I know in addition to those two albums, they covered Number of the Beast, which is the only one I haven't heard.



I was at one of the shows where they covered that in its entirety, amazing stuff haha!


----------



## fps

fps said:


> I was at one of the shows where they covered that in its entirety, amazing stuff haha!


https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2002/astoria-theatre-london-england-13d6cdf5.html


----------



## Metropolis

First new song is out.


----------



## p0ke

Wow, that was awesome. The only complaints I have is that the intro felt a little out of place, although it might work with something else in the album context, and then the stuff that Rudess plays over the main riff after the first verse - it kinda clashes with the riff somehow. But other than those minor things, I loved it!


----------



## Exchanger

I like the song it feels like it could come from ADToE but with a chorus that works well this time. But the mix...better than self-titled but still very lackluster compared to say, Octavarium or BSCL. The vocals are buried in reverb and behind the cymbals, the drums are super clicky which doesn't fit with the muddy-ish tone of the guitars, which in turn clashes witht he bright bass...


----------



## p0ke

Exchanger said:


> The vocals are buried in reverb



Well, I kinda liked the effect that made though. It didn't sound that natural but suited the vibe of the song IMO. Without analyzing any further, I liked the mix in general ...


----------



## Lukhas

Exchanger said:


> I like the song it feels like it could come from ADToE but with a chorus that works well this time. But the mix...better than self-titled but still very lackluster compared to say, Octavarium or BSCL. The vocals are buried in reverb and behind the cymbals, the drums are super clicky which doesn't fit with the muddy-ish tone of the guitars, which in turn clashes witht he bright bass...


I thought the song could've been on any of the last few albums, it's trademark modern DT. I like the intro, I liked the song overall even though sometimes you can just point at things you've heard before; I don't think it's bad actually, I'm not asking them to become other people.

As for the mix... I felt the guitars were easily 1.5dB too loud at the very least compared to the rest: they really were crushing the mix, especially since they're so broad and big (just how John likes them). Also maybe it's just me, but the panning had a lot of stuff glued to the far sides, panned really hard left and right, leaving the axis, the middle of the stereo picture quite empty even with the vocals.


----------



## lurè

Good song overall, thousand times better than their last two albums.
I liked the reverb on vocals but I hope not to find it in every song of the album, it just gets annoying.
Mix is fine for me.


----------



## p0ke

lurè said:


> I hope not to find it in every song of the album, it just gets annoying.



My thoughts exactly. I hope they did that just for this specific song to suit the mood.

Oh and one thing I really liked on this song, was that I felt that Rudess didn't overplay for once! The organs were nice and subtle and the only wankery was on the solo section and even that was among the more tasteful stuff they've done.


----------



## DLG

song is rehashed garbage. nothing interesting about this at all. I feel like I've heard every melodic and riff on this at least 4 times.


----------



## scrub

Definitely has an "Outcry" feel to it from ADTOE. I approve. Looking forward to the rest of the album.


----------



## Evan89

I transcribed the guitar parts:


----------



## The Mirror

Not to be the guy who ruins the party, but.

Un (Rise) tethered (up) an (be) gel (counted)
Falling (Stand) into (strong) darkness (and unite)
Don't (Wait) be (for) afraid (the) let go (Outcry)
Givin' up (Resistance) yourself (is) won't set (calling) you free (tonight)

That song is the most by the numbers DT-Metal track possible.

That said I am for years now only listening to I&W, Awake and Falling Into Infinity, so I am really not the one to ask for opinions on modern DT, I guess.


----------



## setsuna7

I like this. Waaaay better than the last album. Metal Injection said this has 8 strings .


----------



## scrub

^intrigued.


----------



## technomancer

Good to see the internet critic crew wasn't late  You guys could save a lot of time and energy by just admitting it doesn't matter what they do you will trash it and moving along.

To me this is ok, and I'll pick up a copy of the album


----------



## Exchanger

technomancer said:


> Good to see the internet critic crew wasn't late  You guys could save a lot of time and energy by just admitting it doesn't matter what they do you will trash it and moving along.
> 
> To me this is ok, and I'll pick up a copy of the album



Nahhhh I'm looking forward to it, I've just been disappointed by their choices of engineers since self-titled. Especially when comparing with what came before that.


----------



## thesnowdog




----------



## Kaura

thesnowdog said:


>




I don't care what you say but the keyboard player staring at sheets especially while playing a brand new song that they've just wrote and recorded makes him look like he has the memory of a goldfish. I mean, you don't see Petrucci staring at Guitar Pro while playing.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Sounds like something straight from Train of Thought. I honestly don't hate it.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Decent song. Not bad but very similar to the heavy songs on Self Titled and ADTOE.


----------



## thedonal

It's OK. Just more of the same, really. 

More banging on about some sort of angels.... 

History repeating.

I'll get the album and probably like it. 

It does look a bit forced now with the cameraderie- I wonder if there's rifts in there..


----------



## scrub

no rifts.. just riffs.


----------



## p0ke

thesnowdog said:


>




No 8-string on this song at least. In fact it looks like JP is playing a 6-string, I guess it's gotta be in C-tuning like most of ToT? I would've guessed it's at least a 7 in standard tuning before seeing the video.


----------



## wankerness

Kaura said:


> I don't care what you say but the keyboard player staring at sheets especially while playing a brand new song that they've just wrote and recorded makes him look like he has the memory of a goldfish. I mean, you don't see Petrucci staring at Guitar Pro while playing.



A) Keyboard parts have a LOT more notes than guitar parts
B) he probably wasn't the one that wrote it
C) most musicians that came up from actual music schools and play in complex genres (jazz, classical) read music!
D) it's a lot easier to memorize something after playing it a ton of times than it is right after it was written

Goldfish, pff



technomancer said:


> Good to see the internet critic crew wasn't late  You guys could save a lot of time and energy by just admitting it doesn't matter what they do you will trash it and moving along.
> 
> To me this is ok, and I'll pick up a copy of the album



"INTERNET CRITIC CREW"? Of course, we're on the internet, they posted a reaction. I'm not sure what phrasing it like this is attempting to prove. I'm also not sure why you include the word "internet" as if non-internet critics are better.

What else do you expect people to do, have no reaction? Have a positive reaction? People to post "awesome" and move along? Isn't saying a song is awesome exactly as much of an uninformed reaction as saying it's not awesome?

This is coming from someone who's apparently the only person in the entire thread that thought "The Astonishing" was good, btw, not trying to trash Dream Theater or their fans.


----------



## scrub

^i thought Astonishing was good.


----------



## A-Branger

Dt making a split cover video of their on song!!! hahahah awesome

I also though it was a 7 string. But yeh seems its a C standard? since the power chords..

song gave me a very Outcry vibe.

the whole song and mixing gave me a "new DT non-Portnoy" vibe..... Like this song could have been in their self title album kinda thing

Speaking of "no Portnoy" OMG it hurt me to see MM play drums in such settup uuhhhgggg..... one of the reasons Ive never like him (too show-y, too flashy, cartoony, show up).... hes a monster of a drumer and if he can play DT songs with the toms and cymbals that high up, amazing for him!!.... it just hurt my arms to see drum parts being sooooooooooooooo elevated and having to play them with your arm sooooooo up high... Not taking into accont the amount of time you loose by trying to reach those and how impractical the whole settup is........ And yeh I know "if he can play it...." and good for him, I jsut hate seeing a drum kit like that. Its like seeing Petrucci playing his parts on a guitar with bass string spacing lol

nothing worng wiht the song, but "its not my DT they have changed" hardcore fan shouting..... Still 100000x times better than the Astonishing.

BUT........ still need to hear rest of the album. The first song released for the Astonishing (The Gift of Music) was actually pretty dam good.... and one of the only 4 good songs on that album


other than that, the song gave me a feel of cool riffs, but not a "song" vibe..... Listening to old stuff, and playing old stuff, I feel their songs used to be songs, a coherent and easy to identify structure/melody/journey.... This new track feels like it is all over the place. But that might just be my first impression and maybe after a couple of listents I would start to "Remember" and learning the song.

which is something I have had from the last few albums. Nothing has become memorable to me enough to
A: making me identify the song
B: learning the name of the song and were it belongs
C: mentaly learn all the instruments
D: making me want to go and learn how to play it
E: Maybe Im too "old" into the DT journey and I already burn myself down and cant be bothered to learn anything anymore and 19yr old me would ahve easily found 30 tabs and learn every song riff


----------



## technomancer

wankerness said:


> "INTERNET CRITIC CREW"? Of course, we're on the internet, they posted a reaction. I'm not sure what phrasing it like this is attempting to prove. I'm also not sure why you include the word "internet" as if non-internet critics are better.
> 
> What else do you expect people to do, have no reaction? Have a positive reaction? People to post "awesome" and move along? Isn't saying a song is awesome exactly as much of an uninformed reaction as saying it's not awesome?
> 
> This is coming from someone who's apparently the only person in the entire thread that thought "The Astonishing" was good, btw, not trying to trash Dream Theater or their fans.



I thought the Astonishing was OK... for what it was which was a straight prog album vs DTs usual prog/metal stuff. I was more referring to the same group of "fans" that literally respond with the exact same reaction to every mention of the band on here. It's just tiring watching people that bitch DT should do something new, then complain anything new doesn't sound like the old stuff, then complain it's stale when the band puts out something that sounds like the old stuff. Just admit you don't like the band anymore and move along 

Spot on on the sheet music and site reading deal though.


----------



## fps

OK, playing, first listen. 

For the first time in a very long time, I'm feeling like this is completely legit DT.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

First time in 3 albums that I’ve really like a DT song.


----------



## Ralyks

As a modern DT song? Not bad
As a modern Prog Metal song? Good shit.


----------



## fps

A-Branger said:


> other than that, the song gave me a feel of cool riffs, but not a "song" vibe..... Listening to old stuff, and playing old stuff, I feel their songs used to be songs, a coherent and easy to identify structure/melody/journey.... This new track feels like it is all over the place. But that might just be my first impression and maybe after a couple of listents I would start to "Remember" and learning the song.



Strongly think this is because you've listened to them a whole load of times. They're only coherent because you know what's coming next and have got used to them. Dream Theater are very guilty of stringing random parts together. It's just over time it becomes more coherent in the listener's mind.


----------



## A-Branger

fps said:


> Strongly think this is because you've listened to them a whole load of times. They're only coherent because you know what's coming next and have got used to them. Dream Theater are very guilty of stringing random parts together. It's just over time it becomes more coherent in the listener's mind.



yeh you are right, and in a way I was too lol.... AFter a few listents the song is started to become more coherent

also as I mention before I think Im getting oversaturated with DT after being a fan since SFAM and jsut before 6Degrees hitted the market. So n matterhow cool the new sogn might be, my mind is like "yeh bro, we got enough, not enough memory to learn new stuff" hahaha


----------



## setsuna7

Those canon toms are starting to get on my nerves!! Seems like Mangini can’t live without it.


----------



## A-Branger

setsuna7 said:


> Those canon toms are starting to get on my nerves!! Seems like Mangini can’t live without it.


blame those to Portnoy.

I remember one interview were MAngini said he didnt like them much, but because MP used them in so many songs, he has to use them so he could play the songs like they were recorded.

I actually quite like the fills made with them.... Its the 1km high up in the ceiling position of them that get on my nerves. Its like seeing a guitar/bass with a high mile action


----------



## setsuna7

Yeah man, the placement of those things too. Never understood Mangini’s reason putting’em high up there


----------



## Flappydoodle

setsuna7 said:


> Yeah man, the placement of those things too. Never understood Mangini’s reason putting’em high up there



It looks cool live, and people say "wow, that's a huge kit. He must be a good drummer"


----------



## Flappydoodle

Exchanger said:


> I like the song it feels like it could come from ADToE but with a chorus that works well this time. But the mix...better than self-titled but still very lackluster compared to say, Octavarium or BSCL. The vocals are buried in reverb and behind the cymbals, the drums are super clicky which doesn't fit with the muddy-ish tone of the guitars, which in turn clashes witht he bright bass...



Yep. For all the super expensive signature gear, the guitars sound kinda muddy.

And the vocals are buried in effects because he can't sing for shit. I know it's way too late to rag on LaBrie, but I suspect he's reaching a point where he can't even cut it in the studio any more.


----------



## Avedas

The new song is decent. The mix is pretty boring and not very clear though.


----------



## fps

A-Branger said:


> yeh you are right, and in a way I was too lol.... AFter a few listents the song is started to become more coherent
> 
> also as I mention before I think Im getting oversaturated with DT after being a fan since SFAM and jsut before 6Degrees hitted the market. So n matterhow cool the new sogn might be, my mind is like "yeh bro, we got enough, not enough memory to learn new stuff" hahaha



That's EXACTLY when I started listening to them too, how funny. Remember seeing them live playing Glass Prison before the record was released, and already knowing it as I'd DL'd it. Not my finest hour, it was damn cool to see them then recreate it though. Their technicality is taken for granted in the age of electronics and programmed music, but seeing them live each time with Portnoy (nothing against Mangini, I just haven't felt the need to see them live since he joined) was just jawdropping.


----------



## fps

Flappydoodle said:


> Yep. For all the super expensive signature gear, the guitars sound kinda muddy.
> 
> And the vocals are buried in effects because he can't sing for shit. I know it's way too late to rag on LaBrie, but I suspect he's reaching a point where he can't even cut it in the studio any more.



I thought LaBrie sounded great! In fact, whole mix I'm fairly happy with in a *modern DT* way they've been pushing for, more compressed and in your face.


----------



## fps

A-Branger said:


> yeh you are right, and in a way I was too lol.... AFter a few listents the song is started to become more coherent
> 
> also as I mention before I think Im getting oversaturated with DT after being a fan since SFAM and jsut before 6Degrees hitted the market. So n matterhow cool the new sogn might be, my mind is like "yeh bro, we got enough, not enough memory to learn new stuff" hahaha



Also, indeed, how the HELL do they remember this stuff? I can barely remember how to play Road Trippin' without a tab for god's sakes!


----------



## p0ke

setsuna7 said:


> Yeah man, the placement of those things too. Never understood Mangini’s reason putting’em high up there



It probably makes micing them easier too, as they're really far from the rest of the kit they won't bleed into the other mics that much. I don't mind the toms as they're just bonus things (and where else would you put a bunch of extra toms?) but when he plays the cymbals that are up there with them it looks really akward


----------



## A-Branger

fps said:


> Also, indeed, how the HELL do they remember this stuff? I can barely remember how to play Road Trippin' without a tab for god's sakes!


lol you are not alone, thats the reason why J Rudes hav been playing with a score tablet since years ago hahah


----------



## p0ke

A-Branger said:


> lol you are not alone, thats the reason why J Rudes hav been playing with a score tablet since years ago hahah



Yeah, can't really blame him for that


----------



## metal_sam14

First song I have really enjoyed since ADTOE. Excited for the rest of the album!


----------



## thedonal

Do you think the next album will feature a song about snow angels?


----------



## scrub

my favorite part of the song is at the 3:30 mark where the guitar and the kick drum are mirroring each other. damn that sh*t is tiiiiiiiiiight.


----------



## Guitarjon

The new song is definitely growing on me.
At first I wasn't a huge fan because the mix reminded me too much of the self titled album, especially the fx-heavy vocals.
But I dig the energy I guess.
Still think other mixes in their catalog are waaayyy better.


----------



## jco5055

How good are the Mangini albums? I haven't really sat down and listened to an album newer than BC&SL (Which I love) just because I lost some of my complete technicality/prog love/snobbery in the period between that and ADToE being released. Like I've listened to all of them passively while I work etc and hardly any songs stood out/I could recall any specific riffs or melodies from.


----------



## Exchanger

Kaura said:


> I don't care what you say but the keyboard player staring at sheets especially while playing a brand new song that they've just wrote and recorded makes him look like he has the memory of a goldfish. I mean, you don't see Petrucci staring at Guitar Pro while playing.



I guess it's also a matter of training. Rudess is classically trained, Petrucci says he learned a lot by ear when he started out. As someone who learned to play with sheet for a long time, I really have trouble memorizing entire songs. And I find that you can free-up space to focus on other things. When I record, I almost always read a tab or chart, and I noticed that if I don't, even if I remember the part, then I tend to fuck-up more.



Flappydoodle said:


> Yep. For all the super expensive signature gear, the guitars sound kinda muddy.
> 
> And the vocals are buried in effects because he can't sing for shit. I know it's way too late to rag on LaBrie, but I suspect he's reaching a point where he can't even cut it in the studio any more.



I wouldn't even blame Labrie, his performance was good in the Astonishing (imo) and his apparitions on Ayreon's latest album are also great (maybe because they're written for the better parts of his register ??). And it's not a matter of too much dubbing parts, it's really that annoying compressed delay or whatever that is...not something I would use to conceal bad performance.


----------



## Metropolis

jco5055 said:


> How good are the Mangini albums? I haven't really sat down and listened to an album newer than BC&SL (Which I love) just because I lost some of my complete technicality/prog love/snobbery in the period between that and ADToE being released. Like I've listened to all of them passively while I work etc and hardly any songs stood out/I could recall any specific riffs or melodies from.



I think ADToE is a solid album, drums aren't too inspirational because Mangini wasn't really involved in writing process, but overall it has very good moments in my opinion. Breaking All Illusions must be my favorite song from that one. From the self titled album Illumination Theory is a good one if you want long and epic progressive metal song. The Astonishing is just too much for me at least, it's like a very long story which contains 34 songs, just can't get any grip from it and any of those songs isn't standing out because of that. If that's your thing you're gonna love it, otherwise you will ignore the whole thing and never listen it.


----------



## Genome

It always puzzles me why prog metalheads seem to immediately critique and comment about the mix rather than the actual song.

Does this happen in other genres? Do you get Skrillex fans debating whether his bass wubs enough in the 100hz region?


----------



## The Mirror

Genome said:


> It always puzzles me why prog metalheads seem to immediately critique and comment about the mix rather than the actual song.



To be fair. There are so god damn many great prog bands out there, that pure technique of playing isn't a point of debate anymore.

Every major prog band has monster players on every instrument.

Songwriting is a thing that come to expect from DT. Everyone knows how a metal-oriented DT song after Octavarium sounds like, so no suprises there.

And so, as generally a lot of prog fans are nerds about equipment and mixing, talking about the production seems like a logical point of debate. Especially on a forum like this, which is really all about the technicalities of guitars and equipment.

Hell, if anyone brings up AJFA at any point in any discussion, you can bet that on the same page someone will comment about the bass. On a record that is friggin 30 years old at this point.

That debate has been put upside down so many times that noone can see it anymore. And still it happens.

So. tl;dr: Nitpicking about production details? Congratulations. That is us.


----------



## Lukhas

Genome said:


> It always puzzles me why prog metalheads seem to immediately critique and comment about the mix rather than the actual song.


Because no one or at least, very few doubt that Dream Theater will release a solid song for the first single of their newest record, no matter anyone's opinion of the contents of the eventual album.


----------



## Genome

Lukhas said:


> Because no one or at least, very few doubt that Dream Theater will release a solid song for the first single of their newest record, no matter anyone's opinion of the contents of the eventual album.



I'm not complaining as such. I just find it a little funny (hell, I've probably been guilty of it in the past). 

I can understand it when there's obvious production problems that are affecting the impact of the song, but a lot of it is very nitpicky. It must be frustrating for the band, to work in the studio for a few months writing music that they're proud of, only for the YouTube comments to be full of people arguing whether there's enough 3.2k in the guitars


----------



## Lukhas

In which JP, James and Jordan discuss Untethered Angel.




Genome said:


> I'm not complaining as such. I just find it a little funny (hell, I've probably been guilty of it in the past).
> 
> I can understand it when there's obvious production problems that are affecting the impact of the song, but a lot of it is very nitpicky. It must be frustrating for the band, to work in the studio for a few months writing music that they're proud of, only for the YouTube comments to be full of people arguing whether there's enough 3.2k in the guitars


I'd dare to think that they're used to it.  Dream Theater, by its progressive and shredtastic nature always attract a lot of different opinions, very critical (as in "accurate", "precise", not necessarily "negative") ones as well. Sometimes the most technically and compositionally complicated music will be labelled as "music for musicians", as mostly "trained ears" will appreciate the finer details of the music; in a sense you get used to music, in general. As such, you're going to hear critics from other musicians if they're the ones who listen to your work. I think it was Misha Mansoor who, at a Q&A before a show, asked the audience to raise their hands if they played an instrument... and I think he said it was grossly 9 out of 10 members of the audience.

That said, my mom thought that The Astonishing was amazing... even though Images and Words is still her favourite album of theirs. She doesn't play an instrument nor has musical training; she doesn't even like Metal.


----------



## Zalbu

I'm really liking the song itself, and Petrucci is flawless in both playing and writing as always, but man, LaBrie is sounding whinier and whinier with every album. Dream Theater could be on a completely new level with a better singer, but I doubt the band is going to kick LaBrie and he's only going to leave voluntarily.


----------



## groverj3

The Mirror said:


> Hell, if anyone brings up AJFA at any point in any discussion, you can bet that on the same page someone will comment about the bass. On a record that is friggin 30 years old at this point.



Except every single instrument on AJFA sounds like complete garbage, not just the bass


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Genome said:


> It always puzzles me why prog metalheads seem to immediately critique and comment about the mix rather than the actual song.
> 
> Does this happen in other genres? Do you get Skrillex fans debating whether his bass wubs enough in the 100hz region?



I'm pretty sure you'll have a bigger ratio of prog metal fans that are musicians, engineers, and producers than you will dubstep fans.

Also this forum is a huge group of musicians, so yeah. 



groverj3 said:


> Except every single instrument on AJFA sounds like complete garbage, not just the bass



Sucks because judging by the separate stems you can find online, the bass in AJFA sounds monstrous.


----------



## A-Branger

groverj3 said:


> Except every single instrument on AJFA sounds like complete garbage, not just the bass



fucking acronymous.... what album is that again?. Even as a long time fan I cant figure it out all the album names by stupid acronymous... Is it that hard to write a name these days?

I have the spotify page open... theres no album with that... So are we talking about a song?.... f me, I know a lot of their songs by name, but cant for the love of anything remember or figure it out what some that letters belong to


----------



## Kaura

A-Branger said:


> fucking acronymous.... what album is that again?. Even as a long time fan I cant figure it out all the album names by stupid acronymous... Is it that hard to write a name these days?
> 
> I have the spotify page open... theres no album with that... So are we talking about a song?.... f me, I know a lot of their songs by name, but cant for the love of anything remember or figure it out what some that letters belong to



They're referring to Metallica's album "And Justice For All".


----------



## A-Branger

Kaura said:


> They're referring to Metallica's album "And Justice For All".


 fuck me


----------



## thedonal

Jesus. I'm not watching a video of Dream Theater talking about each track of the new album we haven't heard.

They are trying too hard on the teasing buildup. We never used to need this*. That sort of shit is for the bonus disc of the album so we can look at it afterwards.

What has this world come to?**

*Edit- we don't need it now!

**answers on a postcard please to the above address


----------



## Exchanger

Genome said:


> I can understand it when there's obvious production problems that are affecting the impact of the song, but a lot of it is very nitpicky. It must be frustrating for the band, to work in the studio for a few months writing music that they're proud of, only for the YouTube comments to be full of people arguing whether there's enough 3.2k in the guitars



It's for one because the standard has been set very high, by past albums, and secondly by other bands who don't even have a 10th of DT's budget. And in this case, I do think it ruins the song a bit.


----------



## Evan89

Had a request on my last video to do this song:


----------



## groverj3

In watching the playthrough video for the new song I'm struck by how damn clean 'Trucch's picking technique looks. This is in stark contrast to how he's looked a little less disciplined live over the past 5 or so years. Not that he isn't playing well most of the time, but there's a noticeable difference in arm motion that he's been using live vs the very strict picking he's showcasing here.

Seems like the guy really does still dial that wrist motion in for the studio sessions and is still at the top of his game when he wants to put in the time.


----------



## Evan89

Another transcription request:


----------



## Sephiroth952

Been giving the new song some time to sink in. I wasn't too hyped on the first listen, but tbh now it gets me pretty pumped. Definitely a grower, very ToT-esque.


----------



## A-Branger

Sephiroth952 said:


> Been giving the new song some time to sink in. I wasn't too hyped on the first listen, but tbh now it gets me pretty pumped. Definitely a grower, very ToT-esque.


feel the same way. Now I love the song


----------



## lurè

Nothing new? I don't care. Metallica riffing ftw


----------



## Jamey36

Really giving me high hopes for the album!Especially "Fall into the Light"!


----------



## Exchanger

I like this one too. The chorus has some interesting harmonies and vocal lines, which I often missed in self-titled and ADToE


----------



## Sephiroth952

Sounds like someone brought a Rainbow CD to the studio with em. 

Solid track though.


----------



## musicman61554

Loving the new track. Chorus has some nice chord changes and melodies. Love the slow section and old school dual guitar leads.


----------



## Evan89

I transcribed the guitar parts:


----------



## electriceye

So, I'm issuing a mea culpa here. I HATED (HATED!!!!!!) the last DT album. The one prior wasn't all that great either. But this new track CRUSHES. I swore off buying any more of their albums after the last debacle, but looks like I was wrong. I hope the rest of the album is this strong.


----------



## BusinessMan

I dig it but is it just me or does it sound like a different tone in this new track?


----------



## Sephiroth952

BusinessMan said:


> I dig it but is it just me or does it sound like a different tone in this new track?



It does sounds pretty different production wise.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'm so glad the band is acknowledging Myung still exists.  His bass tone crushes when you can actually hear him.

And yeah, this is great.


----------



## Ralyks

Holy crap this track is one of the best they've done in some time.


----------



## musicman61554

Evan89 said:


> I transcribed the guitar parts:




Jesus dude you are crazy fast with that. Killer job


----------



## Evan89

musicman61554 said:


> Jesus dude you are crazy fast with that. Killer job


Thank you! I'm trying to make transcribing my main career. Looking forward to sharing many projects this year.


----------



## guitar4tw

Untethered Angel was decent at best in my opinion. I was pretty let down as it made me feel that the Dream Theater of old truly is dead, and that they're just going to continue going down "cheese-road" for yet another album. But, this new track was a pleasant surprise, and gives me some hope for this upcoming album. 

That opening old-school riff with that classic Mesa Boogie "muscle car roar"-tone really brought a smile to my face.


----------



## Sephiroth952

guitar4tw said:


> That opening old-school riff with that classic Mesa Boogie "muscle car roar"-tone really brought a smile to my face.



Yeah after hearing it I had to go play my Mark IV! XD


----------



## guitar4tw

Sephiroth952 said:


> Yeah after hearing it I had to go play my Mark IV! XD



It really is one of the most satisfying distortion tones ever!


----------



## A-Branger

Awesome track, loving it!



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm so glad the band is acknowledging Myung still exists.  His bass tone crushes when you can actually hear him.


 as a long time DT fan and bass player, I have been saying this for as long as I remember..... Soo many little things he does that goes un-noticed, and many fail to accurate transcribe them on tabs, yet they are perfectly able to tab 10237091 sweet picks at 238409284 BPM of petrucci..... but that 2 notes fill the bass does in the second chorus?.... naaah "just play the rooth mate"


----------



## Xaios

"Untethered Angel" did absolutely nothing for me, so I went into "Fall Into the Light" expecting it to be completely forgettable. Lo and behold, I'm pleasantly surprised. I don't think the verses and chorus were anything special, but they were at least decent. The solo section though, definitely enjoyed that. It reminded me of the ending from "My Negation" by Dark Tranquillity (heh, another DT band). And that ending run sounded straight out of "In the Name of God."


----------



## ddtonfire

Evan89 said:


> Thank you! I'm trying to make transcribing my main career. Looking forward to sharing many projects this year.



See if you can get in touch with Jordan Baker or Ryan Maziarz, they're both outstanding pro transcribers.


----------



## Evan89

ddtonfire said:


> See if you can get in touch with Jordan Baker or Ryan Maziarz, they're both outstanding pro transcribers.


I have actually have been emailing with Ryan for a few weeks. I appreciate how they've done the DT tab books, using the isolated guitar tracks and working directly with JP. That's inspired me to take a similar approach with more of my favorite bands. My first official book will be out soon, for Cynic's debut album, Focus. Here's the thread if you're interested: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...ab-book-coming-soon-transcribed-by-me.333335/


----------



## ddtonfire

Evan89 said:


> I have actually have been emailing with Ryan for a few weeks. I appreciate how they've done the DT tab books, using the isolated guitar tracks and working directly with JP. That's inspired me to take a similar approach with more of my favorite bands. My first official book will be out soon, for Cynic's debut album, Focus. Here's the thread if you're interested: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...ab-book-coming-soon-transcribed-by-me.333335/



Awesome man, that's super exciting.


----------



## wankerness

A-Branger said:


> Awesome track, loving it!
> 
> 
> as a long time DT fan and bass player, I have been saying this for as long as I remember..... Soo many little things he does that goes un-noticed, and many fail to accurate transcribe them on tabs, yet they are perfectly able to tab 10237091 sweet picks at 238409284 BPM of petrucci..... but that 2 notes fill the bass does in the second chorus?.... naaah "just play the rooth mate"



YEP, bass tabs are almost universally terrible even on good guitar tabs, it’s like most guitar players can’t even hear them. So frustrating, it’s like they just put down the root notes and call it a day. I was always sure to put a ton of time in on the bass tracks back in the day when I did all those Opeth songs, but it seemed like almost everyone that did them after me just gave up.

It didn’t help that when everyone switched to GUitar Pro it became much more difficult to do bass fills due to Guitar Pro’s fascist requirement of locking the bass score to the guitar score. Ex, guitar plays same thing four times, you put in a repeat 4x, you then go to work on the bass score and find they do a different fill every time, you then have to either not transcribe them or go back to the guitar score and just write out the same thing four times in a row to allow you to put those bass fills in. Stupid.

/rant

People say Myung can’t be heard, but I find that even on albums where he’s quiet they still mixed it in such a way that you can hear everything he does if you know how to listen for it. It’s not like many rock/metal mixes where the bass is inaudible as anything other than low frequencies, there’s always been a clear separation.


----------



## ddtonfire

wankerness said:


> YEP, bass tabs are almost universally terrible even on good guitar tabs...
> 
> People say Myung can’t be heard, but I find that even on albums where he’s quiet they still mixed it in such a way that you can hear everything he does if you know how to listen for it.



That was the nice thing about Powertabs, having the separate bass sections. Too bad that whole community died with the publishers going after PTA. It was always a fun challenge to actually figure out what bass was doing down there when I was transcribing, and the result was often surprising.

Anyways, back onto the subject - when people say Myung can't be heard, they're wanting to hear DT sound exactly like Rush, where the bass has a lot of mids and treble, too. DT is more like a Metallica in their sound (and Rush in their composition), where the function of the bass is to add, well, the base to thick guitars - so more like an extension of the guitars downward. I think they nailed it with these latest tracks - bass is prominent enough to distinguish, and perfectly supports the heavy guitars. 

I suspect that would have to be a conscious decision on JP's part as the producer, because previously he didn't want to give up any of his frequency space, and it was too guitar-dominant. It's much more balanced now - you can hear each element clearly.


----------



## TheTrooper

Really liked the last track; Untethered Angel was ok, but not memorable.

The intro riff WORKS.


----------



## Lukhas

A-Branger said:


> Awesome track, loving it!
> 
> 
> as a long time DT fan and bass player, I have been saying this for as long as I remember..... Soo many little things he does that goes un-noticed, and many fail to accurate transcribe them on tabs, yet they are perfectly able to tab 10237091 sweet picks at 238409284 BPM of petrucci..... but that 2 notes fill the bass does in the second chorus?.... naaah "just play the rooth mate"


You can't tab what you can't hear; if you can guess the scale/chord, you basically know which notes you can use to transcribe something and which ones you cannot so, even if you can't clearly hear every single note that's being played without slowing down. Reminds me how some people find it so unbelievable that others can transcribe so fast. If it's buried in the mix or otherwise undistinct... good luck! 

That said, the lack of attention is indeed sad. I like the feel of the bass shaking my body, so sometimes I enjoy listening to bass stems... or go to Felipe Andreoli's (Angra's bassist) YT channel.


ddtonfire said:


> I suspect that would have to be a conscious decision on JP's part as the producer, because previously he didn't want to give up any of his frequency space, and it was too guitar-dominant. It's much more balanced now - you can hear each element clearly.


To be honest I still think that the guitars are crushing the mix, so your mileage will undoubtedly vary.  Even if I'll gladly admit this wasn't the kind of song I was expecting DT to write at all.


----------



## p0ke

Finally got to listen to the new song and yeah, it's great. Gotta listen to it a few a more times to get into the details properly though.


----------



## A-Branger

wankerness said:


> when I did all those Opeth songs,


oooohhh where where where??? me needs some Opeth <3 !!! pleaaaaaaase



ddtonfire said:


> That was the nice thing about Powertabs, having the separate bass sections. Too bad that whole community died with the publishers going after PTA


OMG!!... powertabs saved my life back in the day. It was the ONLY place where I could find accurate tabs for DT and many other bands. But mainly for DT, that was THE only place to go. Since as fucking alwyas you can buy a gutir tab book, but never a bass one. And yeh I know there an antology and the A Change of Seasons.... fucking hate it when they shut it down :'( eventually they kinda opened?.... donno I spend like good amount of years without being fully active learning new songs and then suddenly everything changed, I couldnt find anything. Even the software, now Its TuxGuitar or something like that



ddtonfire said:


> where the function of the bass is to add, well, the base to thick guitars - so more like an extension of the guitars downward.



yeah thats what tey do in DT. I never like that approach. I always feel the bass needs a couple of extra dBs ad it should be fiine


----------



## Bdtunn

I really love JP’s tone on this new one!!


----------



## wankerness

A-Branger said:


> oooohhh where where where??? me needs some Opeth <3 !!! pleaaaaaaase



Some of them got uploaded to ultimate-guitar under different people's names or got directly copied to Guitar Pro and someone else took credit, infuriatingly, and since it's all free tabs and you can't reclaim them it pissed me off so much I quit tabbing. There was another dude on PTA who went by the name "Orchid" that was a bass player and did really, really accurate bass tabs and I put guitar over a couple of them (Leper Affinity, April Ethereal, Funeral Portrait I know for sure, I think Bleak maybe, it's been over 10 years so I have a hard time remembering). I went over them and helped with a couple other people's Opeth tabs as well. I think all in all there's about 20 Opeth tabs I either made entirely myself, did just guitar or bass, or just edited and thus I'd stand by bass accuracy. I'll put them on google drive or something and PM you later. Here's what I remember working on that for sure had bass:

Forest of October
Advent
Nectar
To Bid You Farewell
April Ethereal
When
Demon of the Fall
Karma
The Moor
Moonlapse Vertigo
Serenity Painted Death (this was the first thing I tabbed and I never went back to it so the bass probably blows)
The Leper Affinity
Bleak
The Drapery Falls
Dirge for November (I just edited this)
The Funeral Portrait
Wreath (this took so damn long and I didn't like the song much, so I finished the guitar, started on the bass, and said "i don't feel like it" after about 1/3 the song, so I think the versions that made it to the wild all were missing bass but my copy has part of it!)
A Fair Judgement
Windowpane
Closure
Hope Leaves (I THINK I did bass? I really can't remember now, maybe I did most of it and someone else uploaded it first)
Ghost of Perdition
Baying of the Hounds
Reverie/Harlequin Forest
The Grand Conjuration
Isolation Years

The Ghost Reveries songs were my favorite to play, that is a great album for playing along with.

This post brought to you by Dream Theater!

RE: PTA, Jordan Baker first showed up on there and did a couple tabs that made my jaw drop. LTE's Acid Rain is the big one I remember. I think maybe he did DT's This Dying Soul also? He did a couple other ones as well that were less complex, like I believe he did OSI - Hello Helicopter. That guy was the best on there for sure, but he was extremely non-prolific. I wish the PTA was still up so I could check these things. I always wished he'd do some Images and Words stuff cause that tab book was terrible. Some guy did a much better version of Learning to Live than was on album, but it still had issues.


----------



## A-Branger

amazing!


----------



## Kaura

Am I seriously the only one who finds the snare really obnoxious in the new song? Way too loud and "explosive" sounding, imo. What is it with this band and not managing to get a decent snare tone these days.


----------



## A-Branger

wankerness said:


> I'll put them on google drive or something and PM you later


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> <List with a million Opeth songs tabbed>



Wow, that's a lot of tabs. Given they're Opeth songs, it must've taken you some time to do those


----------



## p0ke

About Fall into the Light, I don't really like the intro riff the way it starts out, but what it develops into is pretty nice. But the first 3min of the song just feels like filler compared to the clean + harmony lead part. It's really really really awesome. It somehow reminds me a bit of the 5:40-6:00 + 7:20-8:05 riff in July Morning (the Uriah Heep song).


----------



## DLG

p0ke said:


> Wow, that's a lot of tabs. Given they're Opeth songs, it must've taken you some time to do those



probably the best thing about tabbing Opeth is that the riffs tend to repeat so much that you don't have to keep rewinding.  

Wouldn't mind seeing those tabs. 

New Dream Theater? nope.


----------



## Evan89

This song wasn't included in the Astonishing tab book, so I transcribed it the other day:


----------



## p0ke

I read a review of the album somewhere earlier today, and that made it sound like it'll be in my top 5 this year. I was already looking forward to it after hearing the two songs, but even more now 

Update: this one


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

p0ke said:


> I read a review of the album somewhere earlier today, and that made it sound like it'll be in my top 5 this year. I was already looking forward to it after hearing the two songs, but even more now
> 
> Update: this one



He liked The Astonishing so... eeehhhh? I'm still in the wait and see camp, even though the 2 new songs are great.


----------



## Lukhas




----------



## Lukhas

Forgot this one. Thanks for the editing time limit SSO!


----------



## Ralyks

Paralyzed came out today. I like it, but, ummmm.... This feels like it could have been a Breaking Benjamin track.


----------



## p0ke

Ralyks said:


> Paralyzed came out today. I like it, but, ummmm.... This feels like it could have been a Breaking Benjamin track.



That was pretty boring compared to the other two songs they've released so far! It wasn't bad actually, but nothing really caught my attention during the 4 minutes that went by listening to it...


----------



## thesnowdog

Ralyks said:


> Paralyzed came out today. I like it, but, ummmm.... This feels like it could have been a Breaking Benjamin track.



I'd never heard BB but now that I have you're right.


----------



## SD83

I rather liked it. Nothing fancy, but most of the time I actually prefer the more straightforward Dream Theater songs to those that go on forever and ever with a million complex parts and patterns and all that...


----------



## thedonal

I really liked Fall Into The Light- the opening really had a Master of Puppets sound and feel. Loved that! Better than the first.

I'll hold back now on listening to any more and just get my pre-order in- experience as much of the album as brand new on the first listen. I've a feeling I will quite like this one.


----------



## Exchanger

Yeah not their most original song, but works well.


----------



## Jamey36

Nothing groundbreaking or new with "Paralyzed",but straightforward and I rather liked it!All the new songs sound like they could have been on TOT.Good for me as that's one of my favorite DT discs.All in all really looking forward to this one.


----------



## Metropolis

Is someone else annoyed by the way these mixes are compressed, some kind of constant jumping going on? Don't know if it's just Spotify...


----------



## Evan89

I originally lined up the tab alongside the album audio, but it got taken down immediately. Not sure why, considering my Untethered Angel and Fall Into the Light videos are the same format. Anyway:


----------



## Ralyks

Like I said, I do like it, It's a good straightforward track and DEFINITELY for radio play, but seriously, I thought I put on "So Cold" from BB for a minute.


----------



## DLG

dudes sound like a DT parody band at this point.


----------



## TGN

Potentially of interest to DT fans:


----------



## Kaura

Kinda weird timing for a solo album when your main band releases an album less than 2 months earlier. But who am I to judge.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Kaura said:


> Kinda weird timing for a solo album when your main band releases an album less than 2 months earlier. But who am I to judge.



I think his solo album has been in the works for awhile now.


----------



## Avedas

TGN said:


> Potentially of interest to DT fans:



That's like the same chord progression as Ministry of Lost Souls lmao


----------



## Ralyks

I'm actually surprised Rudess is just now putting out a solo album. I also feel like LaBries solo albums came out fairly close to whatever DT album was out during that time.


----------



## Ola Englund

Did anyone see this? Damn it's so sick


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ralyks said:


> I'm actually surprised Rudess is just now putting out a solo album. I also feel like LaBries solo albums came out fairly close to whatever DT album was out during that time.


DT13 and Impermanent Resonance came out a month apart in NOrth America. I remember some people joking that it would be a better DT album than the self titled.


----------



## Ralyks

Other than EXTREMELY CRINGY lyrics, LaBries solo albums are actually pretty damn good.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ralyks said:


> Other than EXTREMELY CRINGY lyrics, LaBries solo albums are actually pretty damn good.



Yup. Marco's a fucking monster.


----------



## Lukhas

Ralyks said:


> Other than EXTREMELY CRINGY lyrics, LaBries solo albums are actually pretty damn good.


And LaBrie is singing at a more appropriate pitch than with DT, more mindful of how his voice has evolved. Which essentially means he sings a good deal lower. For me that's a huge plus.


----------



## DLG

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yup. Marco's a fucking monster.



Matt Guillory is sick too. He basically sounds like Petrucci on keyboards. 

Check out his original band Dali's Dilemma if you haven't. It's basically 90s Dream Theater with a hard rock vocalist.


----------



## Veldar

Someone let me know if John Myung writes basslines on this album, I'm not fussed on a doubled guitar part


----------



## Lax

Myung wrote basslines on the new albums, you'll learn more in reviews and interviews ^^


New trailer,
I just can't wait


----------



## Lukhas




----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DLG said:


> Matt Guillory is sick too. He basically sounds like Petrucci on keyboards.
> 
> Check out his original band Dali's Dilemma if you haven't. It's basically 90s Dream Theater with a hard rock vocalist.



Checked it out early. That's some real good shit.

Whatever happened to their guitarist? I searched him up and I can't find anything. Not even Metal Archives had any details.


----------



## Lax




----------



## p0ke

Lax said:


>




I'd say that sounds quite promising


----------



## Lukhas

Animatronic puppetry technology keeps getting better and better.


----------



## sharedEQ

nothin new


----------



## wankerness

Hmm. Nice to hear the opening lead of Test that Stumped them All again at the beginning of that trailer video.


----------



## setsuna7

Just listened to whole album twice now, gotta say i like it. Barstool Warrior is my current favorite. definitely getting ToT vibes here.


----------



## Rock4ever

wankerness said:


> Hmm. Nice to hear the opening lead of Test that Stumped them All again at the beginning of that trailer video.



That's the intro to At Wit's End, and interestingly the song fits within the theme of 6DOIT


----------



## Kaura

Skipped the first three track and just started listening from Barstool Warrior. Really digging this song. Sounds like a fun song to learn. Where's that transcriber guy when you need him?


----------



## Sephiroth952

Holy fucking hell 3:59 in S2N.


----------



## Kaura

Pale Blue Dot... HOLY SHIT!


----------



## Evan89

I transcribed the whole album:



And here's me playing Barstool Warrior:



This solo was quite a feat:


----------



## Avedas

Evan89 said:


> This solo was quite a feat:



I love that you nailed the bits where John just shoves as many notes as he can into a measure


----------



## setsuna7

Sephiroth952 said:


> Holy fucking hell 3:59 in S2N.



Same here man, I thought I was getting trolled by iTunes!!!


----------



## Ralyks

Still have the last 2 tracks to go. But really digging it so far. I’d give S2n the nod as my favorite so far.


----------



## musicman61554

Listened to it about 4 times and man its beautiful. Killer album and the production is AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## A-Branger

Evan89 said:


> I transcribed the whole album:



tha fuck!?! 

are you even human????


----------



## Evan89

A-Branger said:


> tha fuck!?!
> 
> are you even human????


lol, thanks dude! I'm trying to make transcribing my main career, right now it's about 50/50 teaching and transcribing. I should also emphasize that I'm offering the full album transcription for FREE. Just email me at [email protected]


----------



## Kaura

Evan89 said:


> lol, thanks dude! I'm trying to make transcribing my main career, right now it's about 50/50 teaching and transcribing. I should also emphasize that I'm offering the full album transcription for FREE. Just email me at [email protected]



Asking here in case you're not reading Youtube comments. Any chance to get a GP5 version? I don't even own Guitar Pro, I use Tuxguitar (which is a free, legal software btw, mods....) but it can open GP5-files.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Anyone else pre-order on iTunes only for it not to allow you to download the whole album?? Mine still isn't right and only letting me download like 5 tracks. DT put it on youtube though so at least i can listen that way.


----------



## setsuna7

TheShreddinHand said:


> Anyone else pre-order on iTunes only for it not to allow you to download the whole album?? Mine still isn't right and only letting me download like 5 tracks. DT put it on youtube though so at least i can listen that way.



I got it immediately after it was available midnight local time yesterday. was able to download the whole album.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

setsuna7 said:


> I got it immediately after it was available midnight local time yesterday. was able to download the whole album.



Dang okay....i'll keep trying some things. worst case i can contact Apple.

And crap, listening to Pale Blue Dot right now....sick!


----------



## Evan89

Kaura said:


> Asking here in case you're not reading Youtube comments. Any chance to get a GP5 version? I don't even own Guitar Pro, I use Tuxguitar (which is a free, legal software btw, mods....) but it can open GP5-files.


I also posted this response to youtube, but it may be of interest to others:

Unfortunately no. There are a lot of things in GP7 that GP5 cannot do, plus the overall look and presentation of 7 is much better. If you are interested in upgrading, you can get GP7 for 20% off here: https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php?pg=cart&from=sheethappens&addProduct=guitarPro&CodeReduction=SHEETHAPPENSGP7&&affiliate=sheethappens&utm_source=gpaffiliates&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=sheethappens


----------



## BenjaminW

This album kicks major ass. Despite the interesting name for Barstool Warrior, it's a standout track and I'm surprised it wasn't released as a single.


----------



## Kaura

Evan89 said:


> I also posted this response to youtube, but it may be of interest to others:
> 
> Unfortunately no. There are a lot of things in GP7 that GP5 cannot do, plus the overall look and presentation of 7 is much better. If you are interested in upgrading, you can get GP7 for 20% off here: https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php?pg=cart&from=sheethappens&addProduct=guitarPro&CodeReduction=SHEETHAPPENSGP7&&affiliate=sheethappens&utm_source=gpaffiliates&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=sheethappens



Oh, I see. Personally I don't find use for the fancy features of GP7 and I've always preferred the simple layout of TuxGuitar even to GP5. Thanks anyway! Might reach out to you for the pdf-files though.


----------



## Evan89

Kaura said:


> Oh, I see. Personally I don't find use for the fancy features of GP7 and I've always preferred the simple layout of TuxGuitar even to GP5. Thanks anyway! Might reach out to you for the pdf-files though.


Sure man! A lot of the stuff I'm referencing is aesthetic, but also stuff like pick slides (finally a feature in GP7).


----------



## Bdtunn

Ohhhh the tone on this one!!!! 
Definitely impressed


----------



## Ralyks

Finished the album. Best thing they’ve done in a long time. Right now I stand with S2n as my favorite, but that can change.

Between this and the new Overkill, it is a fine day for Metal releases.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

This album is better than their last 3, imo. Good stuff on here. Loving Barstool Warrior.


----------



## A-Branger

Evan89 said:


> lol, thanks dude! I'm trying to make transcribing my main career, right now it's about 50/50 teaching and transcribing. I should also emphasize that I'm offering the full album transcription for FREE. Just email me at [email protected]


oooh sick dude. but yeah Im on the same boat were I dont own guitar pro so I use tuxguitar, so if PDFs are a thing then awesome. But I need to listen to the album first to see if theres something for me to learn that its up to my level of playing  hahha

btw did you just did guitar? or is it guitar and bass?


----------



## Evan89

A-Branger said:


> oooh sick dude. but yeah Im on the same boat were I dont own guitar pro so I use tuxguitar, so if PDFs are a thing then awesome. But I need to listen to the album first to see if theres something for me to learn that its up to my level of playing  hahha
> 
> btw did you just did guitar? or is it guitar and bass?


Just guitar parts. Each guitar track has its own PDF file: rhythm, lead, etc.


----------



## Furtive Glance

Just listened start to finish having not heard a single note prior to doing so.

Goddamn.

Now _that's _a Dream Theater album. It reminds me of a combination of 6DoIT, Systematic Chaos, and their Self-Titled, but I also got vibes from all over the place, including FII and Octavarium. Also that Viper King song grooves so hard.


----------



## Metropolis

It sounds they actually had fun when playing their instruments, that's how you know album is a good one. Definetly best since Octavarium.


----------



## Ralyks

I seem to be the only person who isn’t thrilled with Viper King. Not bad, just feels really out of place.
But, it’s a bonus track, so it slides.
I’m reallllyyy digging thing album more than anything they’ve done in forever. And will be attempting to learn S2n at some point.


----------



## RevDrucifer

So impressed with this. Best thing I've heard since 6 Degrees! Mangini has a great drum sound, FINALLY and the album has a lot of good energy to it. This actually feels inspired! 

"Viper King" is a blast! 

Great to hear LaBrie getting out of that boring 'just-barely-singing' range he's been in for a while. Killer guitar tones, great mix, this was MUCH needed. I really fell off after Train Of Thought, I've bought everything except for The Astonishing (which is pretty crazy considering how much of a DT fanboy I used to be) and didn't have my hopes high for this but decided to pre-order after hearing the first couple singles.

No problems on iTunes for me, downloaded just fine!


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

It seems DT have gotten out of a creative or motivation rut, and it's really nice to hear !



Evan89 said:


> lol, thanks dude! I'm trying to make transcribing my main career, right now it's about 50/50 teaching and transcribing. I should also emphasize that I'm offering the full album transcription for FREE. Just email me at [email protected]



Thanks a lot man ! I wouldn't have minded to pay for this transcription because I realize that it must have been the result of a lot of work.

If you're looking for a transcription market where there's a lot of demand and absolutely no offer (the band even stated that they didn't have the time to transcribe), then I suggest doing Scar Symmetry transcriptions. I thought about doing so myself but between 2 jobs and practicing guitar, I didn't have the time to do it (although I picked up about a dozen of Per's solos by ear). I'd definitely be your first customer


----------



## Evan89

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Thanks a lot man ! I wouldn't have minded to pay for this transcription because I realize that it must have been the result of a lot of work.
> 
> If you're looking for a transcription market where there's a lot of demand and absolutely no offer (the band even stated that they didn't have the time to transcribe), then I suggest doing Scar Symmetry transcriptions. I thought about doing so myself but between 2 jobs and practicing guitar, I didn't have the time to do it (although I picked up about a dozen of Per's solos by ear). I'd definitely be your first customer


Thanks! It was definitely an intense period of work, but I'm happy to do it. I wanted to get accurate transcriptions out as soon as possible, to do my part in combating the inevitable awful internet tabs lol. Regarding Scar Symmetry, they're definitely on my list. Right now it's a matter of what to release next, because I have many full albums already complete. An alternate way of contributing to the DT project is purchasing my Cynic - Focus book: https://www.sheethappenspublishing.com/artists/cynic


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Best DT album since TOT for me. Digging every track save for out of reach.

Evan, you are the man! Thanks for sending the tabs and I’ll throw you some bones on PayPal later this week! Killer job!

Oh, and I figured out my iTunes issue. Album was hidden. I had to go into my account on the PC and change some stuff to unhide it. Pretty sure it’s cause I had family sharing on with restrictions on my daughters account. Fixed!


----------



## groverj3

I've liked their recent stuff just fine, but this is definitely their strongest post-Portnoy outing.

Even the cheesy and cringy Out of Reach works for me.

Barstool Warrior may be the best track, and it was the one I was the least interested in based on title alone, haha. It totally makes sense with the subject matter though.


----------



## p0ke

Not much to add really - I'm pretty much loving the album too. It's a rare case where I don't want to skip any songs, I guess my favorite at the moment is Pale Blue Dot. Viper King is cool too but I totally see why it's a bonus track and not really part of the album.


----------



## BenjaminW

I really do hope Dream Theater follows down the path they’re on with this album. There really isn’t a bad song on this album either which is awesome.


----------



## thedonal

Had my first listen today after a couple of failed attempts to get it (cancelled Amazon pre-order the day before release because these days- preordering for delivery on release day is a whole package in itself! I thought that was the point of pre-ordering?!!). 

Then HMV Guildford hadn't apparently received it on Sat. 

Got the last copy at Kingston. Glad I did. Some of it is just a retread for me- vocally in particular (especially Untethered Angel- it's LaBrie by numbers!!). But some nice surprises.

The album felt a bit over compressed as a whole but the drums are really punchy. I like that! A few moments for John Myung to really shine too- I like that more.


----------



## Vyn

I'm not even a Dream Theater fan and I'm liking this. Really solid album.


----------



## ddtonfire

thedonal said:


> Had my first listen today after a couple of failed attempts to get it (cancelled Amazon pre-order the day before release because these days- preordering for delivery on release day is a whole package in itself! I thought that was the point of pre-ordering?!!).



Seriously. I pre-ordered one of the limited editions from Amazon but it's not going to be available from them until _maybe_ the 15th? What bull! Never again! 

Fortunately, there's always someone out there with open arms and a nice way to provide my fix, so...

This is definitely their strongest and most passionate album since MP's departure, and possibly even since Octavarium! I'm enjoying the conciseness of the songs - nothing seems out of place or overdone. JM is rocking in the mix and they finally made MM sound like he's playing real drums! JR is sitting in the mix really well, too. I think the 1-4k is a little harsh; it sounds so much better at high volumes with about 2db taken out over that range. I'd say Barstool Warrior is my favorite so far, followed by Paralyzed and At Wit's End. Lots of repeated playability here! No tracks I'm skipping like the self-titled or albums I'm skipping like Astonishing.

The most exciting thing is DT is BACK.


----------



## Exchanger

ddtonfire said:


> JM is rocking in the mix and they finally made MM sound like he's playing real drums!


I KNOW, RIGHT ? Especially at S2N, I was like "wow, finally !". I'm still not a fan of the vocal production...well apparently vocals are done by the guy who mixed self-titled which I also didn't like the production of, so that explains...

Overall great album. I'm gonna pick Pale Blue Dot as favorite because I love this kind of dark dramatic vibe (also like A Nightmare to Remember). But I can see the appeal of Barstool Warrior that many picked. As it's been said, even the ballads are enjoyable (which I felt were not on ADToE, which otherwise would have been a great album too).


----------



## Lax

It's been nearly 2 decades since fans were together like this 
I listened to the album all weekend long and I can't even settle on my favorites !
PBD has been criticised a lot on the official forum, but maybe it's some bad effect of the hype. I personnaly think it's dance of eternity level, pure pleasure


----------



## thedonal

Lax said:


> It's been nearly 2 decades since fans were together like this



Ain't that the truth!! It's a good thing!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

this is the first dream theater album I've actually liked since systematic chaos.
I love the owen wilson "wow" cameo on s2n that shit had me cracking up


----------



## Ralyks

Ok, I love S2n as I've made it known, but where is this Owen Wilson moment I keep hearing about? I listened for it after I heard about this and I didn't hear it...


----------



## lurè

Ralyks said:


> Ok, I love S2n as I've made it known, but where is this Owen Wilson moment I keep hearing about? I listened for it after I heard about this and I didn't hear it...


It's the "wow" at 4:00 minute


----------



## fps

lurè said:


> It's the "wow" at 4:00 minute



Just came in to post this. What an incredible thing to do, haha.


----------



## Jamey36

The first three songs released piqued my interest,I am not disappointed!Definitely a return to form for DT.I've only given it one listen so far,but did not skip a single track,something I can not say about their last few releases."Pale blue Dot" was the standout for me,but I am sure that will be subject to change after a few listens.Again,not a bad song on this one,just the way a true DT album should be!!!!


----------



## wankerness

Has there ever been a Dream Theater album released that WASN'T described as a "return to form" by many people? Maybe Falling into Infinity...


----------



## Xaios

wankerness said:


> Has there ever been a Dream Theater album released that WASN'T described as a "return to form" by many people? Maybe Falling into Infinity...


Probably correct. Personally the last album I really enjoyed (and even that's with reservations) was BC&SL. Both ADTOE and S/T were generally tepid affairs for me, to the point where I never even bothered listening to The Astonishing, which it sounds like I did myself a favor by not doing. "Fall Into the Light" is certainly a step up compared to anything I've heard since BC&SL though, so I'm cautiously optimistic (I haven't heard the full album yet).

That being said, Falling Into Infinity is honestly criminally underrated. Besides "You Not Me" and "Burning My Soul," it's a great album.


----------



## wankerness

I'm not commenting on quality here, it's just that's become such a silly thing to say and when everyone says it *every album* it stops meaning anything. IIRC that was the most common statement when the S/T came out a few years ago, which now seems to be a very unpopular album. I don't remember what people said about the last one during the initial excitement and I wasn't around for the albums between Octavarium and it. But, yeah, at this point I'm wondering what "form" they're referring to - they definitely have a sound that hasn't changed that much since Rudess took over. Well, besides ToT where he was kinda shoved in the background on many songs. 

TLDR: Dream Theater albums are like Star Wars: The Force Awakens

I'll get this when I see the deluxe in a store and get an urge.


----------



## p0ke

wankerness said:


> TLDR: Dream Theater albums are like Star Wars: The Force Awakens



Agreed  I really like The Force Awakens though.

Anyway, this album is great. It's really hard to say what the exact thing missing from the S/T and ADToE was, but it's definitely present on this one. I mean, both those albums have great parts, but for whatever reason they just didn't stick like this new one does. I'm getting very similar vibes on this one as I did with Systematic Chaos, which I listened to for like a year straight in the car. I hope this one lasts as well


----------



## Avedas

I love this album. It's so damn tasteful. Everything since Portnoy left has been kinda meh for me and I think I only got through The Astonishing twice and never touched it again. Every song on this album is great. Haven't picked favorites yet but there's so much variety. Mangini and Myung sound extra good. Thanks DT. 

Also Lines in the Sand is one of my favorite DT tracks. Falling Into Infinity isn't that bad.


----------



## GraemeH

James LaCheese still makes me cringe a bit sometimes when his singing comes in, but other than that it's pretty awesome. Mix is great, you can feel Myung. Drums don't sound like programmed samples anymore. Rhythm tone is the best it has been. S2N has possibly his best solo. Songs are more heavy and riff based than before.

It's my favourite for a long time, before Octavarium (everyone praises that here but it sounds like it was mastered with a Boss Metal Zone to me...)


----------



## DLG

Avedas said:


> Also Lines in the Sand is one of my favorite DT tracks. Falling Into Infinity isn't that bad.



It's a great album imo, minus a couple duds that were designed to be "radio hits" like You Not Me. 

Sherinian's keyboards were awesome and I much prefer his style to Ruddess's.


----------



## wankerness

Same here, Sherinian’s solo in the middle of Trial of Tears is better than anything Rudess has ever done on a DT album. FII is easily one of my favorite DT albums. I don’t feel as though it’s had a bad rep in a long time, not since probably around systematic chaos and people started realizing “hey, i miss the days it wasn’t all just the Petrucci/Rudess show.”


----------



## Razerjack

I've never acutally thought of this before, but come to think of it Jordan's 'circus' solos have definitely turned me off quite a few DT tracks.


----------



## Ralyks

With all due respect to Ruddess, Kevin will always be DTs keyboardists, and Derek was at least unique. Jordan is talented as hell, but doesn't feel like he has something that stands him out like his predecessors.


----------



## wankerness

My favorite Rudess playing is still on LTE2, that stuff was really based around his talents, plus hearing him with a piano tone >>>>>>> circus/siren sounds.


----------



## Xaios

DLG said:


> Sherinian's keyboards were awesome and I much prefer his style to Ruddess's.


Sherinian's solos were definitely really fiery for a keyboardist, and I really liked that. It was kinda like listening to a young Alexi Laiho.


wankerness said:


> Same here, Sherinian’s solo in the middle of Trial of Tears is better than anything Rudess has ever done on a DT album.


I do, on average, prefer Sherinian's solos, but my favorite DT keyboard/piano solos are still ultimately Rudess:
- Solitary Shell
- Blind Faith (especially the doubled solo at the end)
- Fatal Tragedy


Razerjack said:


> I've never acutally thought of this before, but come to think of it Jordan's 'circus' solos have definitely turned me off quite a few DT tracks.


I think JR would probably have more respect from the fans if he stuck closer to what really made things work between him, Petrucci and Portnoy originally: his playing in Liquid Tension Experiment. More of that fluid piano style, less keyboard wonkiness.


----------



## Avedas

I love Jordan's piano work. Not such a huge fan of his leads. Kevin's style was my favorite for DT.


----------



## fps

After a few listens, it feels like FII crossed with Train Of Thought, which is lovely.

I even like the ballad! (although I wouldn't listen to it in public)


----------



## Esp Griffyn

I didn't mind Sherinian. Moore will always be the best in terms of interesting phrasing on his solos and his use of interesting synth tones to create atmosphere. He was the most tasteful and good for the band by far.

Ruddess is awful, more notes than sense and constantly trying to hog the limelight.


----------



## wankerness

Esp Griffyn said:


> Ruddess is awful, more notes than sense and constantly trying to hog the limelight.



So basically he was the perfect guy to match Portnoy and Petrucci!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

fps said:


> After a few listens, it feels like FII crossed with Train Of Thought, which is lovely.
> 
> I even like the ballad! (although I wouldn't listen to it in public)



Given some songs a listen, and yeah this is spot on. Tries to take the heaviness of ToT and add in some of that hard rock "mainstream" appeal of FiI. 

Also I think it's a good thing because I love FiI.


----------



## Genome

Rudess is actually pretty restrained on the new album.


----------



## Evan89

I just finished a round of updates on all of the songs. I'll be doing my best to email the updated transcriptions to everyone who requested the book originally, but feel free to email me at [email protected] to ensure that you get the new ones.

Thank you all again for your support!


----------



## mguilherme87

As someone who's a bit new to Dream Theater, (always 'heard of them', heard a few songs here and there but never took the dive into the catalog) I don't have much to compare this album to. I just started getting into their stuff about three weeks ago...I guess I chose a good time because this album is AMAZING. Start to finish, I love every song. However, did anyone else notice Viper King kindve steals (and expands upon) the main riff from Van Halen's Man on a Mission? Right at 2:08 or so.


----------



## Ralyks

wankerness said:


> So basically he was the perfect guy to match Portnoy and Petrucci!



I’m actually almost positive they’ve even said in their book that they got Ruddess because he could keep up with Petrucci...


----------



## DLG

wankerness said:


> My favorite Rudess playing is still on LTE2, that stuff was really based around his talents, plus hearing him with a piano tone >>>>>>> circus/siren sounds.



agree with this 100%. 

This is my fav Ruddess song ever.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Okay I usually hate bonus tracks on principle, but I think Viper King might be my favorite on the new album. It is fun and poppy with some raunchy low riffs and tasty Hammond solos. Way popper than I'd expect from DT. Love it.


----------



## lurè

^also the guitar tone on that track Is just massive


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Ralyks said:


> I’m actually almost positive they’ve even said in their book that they got Ruddess because he could keep up with Petrucci...



I don't doubt it, and perhaps Sherinian and Moore were less technically proficient than the band might have wished (a big 'maybe'), but I'd say in general that it is guitar players who have a hard time keeping up with keyboardists, not the other way around. It's just an instrument with better classical training and easier mechanics for fast lead playing. The limiting factor is really how many of those accomplished pianists/keyboardists would want to play in a prog metal band. 

Still, my point being that if Dream Theater were looking for someone who could simply keep pace, I don't think the search would have been as difficult as it was. Look at how many keyboard players Yngwie has had, for example. 

Rudess gets a lot of flack here, but I have little doubt he was primarily pursued for his compositional knowledge and creative/improvisational talents. That was the whole point of working with him on LTE before he was recruited to Dream Theater. And if you look at Rudess' and Petrucci's collaborations in DT since, it is clear Rudess is Petrucci's most frequent writing partner. 

I like his playing, personally. Plus look at the ambitious compositions the band made shortly after he joined, especially on the first two records (Scenes from a Memory and Six Degrees). Would those albums have taken that direction without him? I honestly think Rudess' skillset is undervalued on those records and elsewhere. 

Maybe he goes overboard on sound effects here and there. I don't mind it, yet I can see the annoyance. Still, he's been a huge part of the creative side of Dream Theater from the day he joined. He's there for a lot more than just keyboard unisons!


----------



## wankerness

Rudess's soloing/leads tend towards grating and horrible. His rhythmic/isolated playing tends to be a lot more present and lush than Moore/Sherinian were allowed to do most of the time. I would definitely bet that Rudess is a lot more technically capable than the two of them. My half-joking comment was just that he's also a showboat that plays a monstrous amount of notes compared to the two of them and thus fits in with most non-DT-fans' perception of Petrucci and Portnoy. He also uses the fattest possible keyboard tones, accentuating the notes that are there all the more.

I don't think there's much question that Moore/Sherinian were more than capable of playing as many notes in lead figures as Petrucci. They just also didn't tend to do huge Liberaci-ish keyboard breaks (ex, the intro to One More Time which starts out nice and then goes into Liberaci-land with all the near-comical falls etc). Not to say Liberaci had much beyond the playing ability of Rudess's little finger, just saying he was great at being the biggest possible showboat in tasteless ways.

I'm not going to deny for a second that I think Metropolis 2 and SDOIT are great albums with tons of keyboard playing I really like. There are just also no instances in which Moore/Sherinian ever made me want to turn the song off (ex Beyond This Life).


----------



## I Voyager

I definitely like DOT but I'm not sure I'm as in love with it as a lot of other people seem to be. I can't exactly pinpoint why but I kinda hate the way the vocals sound (especially on Untethered Angel) and on top of that I'm starting to realize how much I've missed Portnoy in the band. No disrespect to Mangini or the records he did with the band (ADTOE is a top 5 DT record for me) but it took one listen to the Sons of Apollo record to go "oh THAT's what DT's supposed to sound like". DOT is definitely the first of the Mangini records I've been able to listen through in one sitting though.

Also idk how I slept on SOA for so long but that record is insanely good.


----------



## p0ke

Yeah I can't stand Rudess's circus music either  It would've been ok to stick it into one song as a sort of joke, but the second time and beyond it just wasn't funny anymore. I'm really happy it was left out of this new album, which is surprisingly held back in terms of keyboards, and the patches he used on it don't sound annoying. I really like the organ tone, actually.


----------



## wankerness

I Voyager said:


> Also idk how I slept on SOA for so long but that record is insanely good.



...Sons of Anarchy?


----------



## Jamey36

wankerness said:


> ...Sons of Anarchy?



Sons of Apollo.


----------



## wankerness

Jamey36 said:


> Sons of Apollo.



Ah. Portnoy/Sherinian/Sheehan album. Never heard of it before, so thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Avedas

I haven't heard Sons of Apollo but Winery Dogs was definitely too dad rock for my tastes


----------



## I Voyager

Avedas said:


> I haven't heard Sons of Apollo but Winery Dogs was definitely too dad rock for my tastes


Nah Sons of Apollo are sick. Imagine middle era DT with a way more soulful singer (not sure if that's a good description but the shit rocks). Soto kills it.


----------



## lurè

I'd say that with this album DT have fully embraced the "just have fun with it" philosophy.

It works!


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

I Voyager said:


> I definitely like DOT but I'm not sure I'm as in love with it as a lot of other people seem to be. I can't exactly pinpoint why but I kinda hate the way the vocals sound (especially on Untethered Angel) and on top of that I'm starting to realize how much I've missed Portnoy in the band. No disrespect to Mangini or the records he did with the band (ADTOE is a top 5 DT record for me) but it took one listen to the Sons of Apollo record to go "oh THAT's what DT's supposed to sound like". DOT is definitely the first of the Mangini records I've been able to listen through in one sitting though.
> 
> Also idk how I slept on SOA for so long but that record is insanely good.


For some reason the sons of Apollo vocals and melody lines did not work for me. Made me think of an aging classic rock band trying to write a "rock record". If that makes any sense. 

Loved the instrumental bits though. Can't go wrong with Sheehan on bass.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Anybody notice that DOT is wayyyy compressed on the master? Nothing like Opeth's Sorceress but still.


----------



## Ralyks

Sons of Apollo is dope as hell. If it weren't for Distance Over Time, I'd say they're currently doing DT better than DT right now.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Maybe I need to listen to them again.


----------



## ddtonfire

Ralyks said:


> Sons of Apollo is dope as hell. If it weren't for Distance Over Time, I'd say they're currently doing DT better than DT right now.



I'd say Haken takes this trophy.


----------



## Ralyks

ddtonfire said:


> I'd say Haken takes this trophy.



I do love me some Haken. I was kind of going with the Portnoy/Sherinian connection.


----------



## skvld

Just heard DOT all the way through for the first time. I'm impressed. For Dream Theater with the current lineup, and at this point in their career, I think it's great. Mangini's personality is really starting to come through in his playing, and the songs are pretty strong throughout. The version I heard was completely compressed to shit, especially the drums. I hope the real master sounds a lot better.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

skvld said:


> Just heard DOT all the way through for the first time. I'm impressed. For Dream Theater with the current lineup, and at this point in their career, I think it's great. Mangini's personality is really starting to come through in his playing, and the songs are pretty strong throughout. The version I heard was completely compressed to shit, especially the drums. I hope the real master sounds a lot better.


As mentioned above, the master seems pretty squashed. That's listening from Google play music. Physical copy arrives on Monday so I guess we'll see if that's different, though I can't imagine it would be. 

It's not terrible though.


----------



## skvld

LiveOVErdrive said:


> As mentioned above, the master seems pretty squashed. That's listening from Google play music. Physical copy arrives on Monday so I guess we'll see if that's different, though I can't imagine it would be.
> 
> It's not terrible though.



I just heard a different version that sounded quite a bit better, so I'm guessing that the master isn't too bad.


----------



## USMarine75

Avedas said:


> I haven't heard Sons of Apollo but Winery Dogs was definitely too dad rock for my tastes


----------



## Guitarmiester

This is the 1st Dream Theater album I've actually enjoyed in a long time. I completely lost interest with everything since Systematic chaos. Rudess toned down and LaBrie's vocals are a little less cheesy than the past efforts. A lot of the riffs bring me back to the ToT & Six Degrees days.


----------



## dr_game0ver

could'nt care less for DT but i find this vidéo amusing.


----------



## chopeth

dr_game0ver said:


> could'nt care less for DT but i find this vidéo amusing.




He is very sympathetic to humans


----------



## DLG

Ralyks said:


> I do love me some Haken. I was kind of going with the Portnoy/Sherinian connection.



Definitely agree that Haken is a great example of what DT-inspired metal should sound like in 2019. Funny thing is that their weak link is also the singer


----------



## Exchanger

I Voyager said:


> I can't exactly pinpoint why but I kinda hate the way the vocals sound (especially on Untethered Angel)


Yeah way too much delay/reverb, it sounds like he's in a phone booth and it's been like that on self-titled as well (same engineer dud the vocals on D/T)



wankerness said:


> Ah. Portnoy/Sherinian/Sheehan album. Never heard of it before, so thanks for the explanation


Not to be confused : there is a live album of a show with Portnoy Sherinian McAlpine Sheehan (like 10 years old or so ?) and the more recent Sons of Apollo with Bumblefoot on guitar and Soto on vocals. 



DLG said:


> Definitely agree that Haken is a great example of what DT-inspired metal should sound like in 2019.


Haken is the best, and I've been saying this since 2009.



DLG said:


> Funny thing is that their weak link is also the singer


Considering they're all great at their job, maybe, but still Ross is amazing,...


----------



## Evan89

In case anyone missed it, I transcribed the entire Distance Over Time album, and I'm offering the tabs for FREE. Just email me at [email protected] or [email protected]

Here's a bit of the outro to At Wit's End on my Artisan Majesty! The lick starting at 0:32 is my favorite part on the entire album.


----------



## Evan89

My box set finally arrived yesterday, so I just finished updating the transcriptions again, thanks to the instrumental and 5.1 mixes. I've sent out the updated book to everyone who requested it previously, but please email me at [email protected] or [email protected] if you didn't get the update.


----------



## Evan89

I'm back again with another solo!


----------



## Majoggy

Best DT album since 6 degrees. Didn't know they had it in them.


----------



## Ola Englund

I've been listening to this album now for a week. It's a good Dream Theater album. It's growing on me. Don't know why but I'm liking Viper King the most. Weird that it's a bonus song on the album


----------



## wankerness

Ola Englund said:


> I've been listening to this album now for a week. It's a good Dream Theater album. It's growing on me. Don't know why but I'm liking Viper King the most. Weird that it's a bonus song on the album



I've heard that from my RL friends also. One of these days I'll have to get this album. I've had a thing about only buying their stuff physically in deluxe versions and only at the semi-local record store. I'm an old man.


----------



## mpexus

On another forum it was posted an Instrumental only version of this Album. I have been listening to it daily since and sometimes 2-3 times a day while working.


----------



## chewpac

Majoggy said:


> Best DT album since 6 degrees. Didn't know they had it in them.



I’m a bunch of listens in now, and I might agree. It’s one of the better albums they’ve put out, as a whole, and the high points are really high.


----------



## Santuzzo

I have listened to the new album about 10 or more times now and I think it's a great album.
After first time listening through I thought "ok, good album", then after two times listening through I was more like "meh" for some reason, but then after a few more times listening to it I stared liking it more and more. 
Petrucci's tone is really awesome on it and I also like the drum sound on this album a lot.


----------



## fps

The only tonal issue is the harshness on the first lead on Barstool Warrior. Bit nails on chalkboard at points. Very solid album, first one in a long time I'm actually happy to put on in front of other people...!


----------



## thedonal

Well- a great album after a few listens now. For me, their best since Octavarium. More consistent throughout than any of their albums since.


----------



## HighGain510

Evan89 said:


> I just finished a round of updates on all of the songs. I'll be doing my best to email the updated transcriptions to everyone who requested the book originally, but feel free to email me at [email protected] to ensure that you get the new ones.
> 
> Thank you all again for your support!



Just wanted to say thanks again to Evan for taking the time to put together such killer tabs! Finally got around to going through them this afternoon, nicely done!!


----------



## Sermo Lupi

DLG said:


> Definitely agree that Haken is a great example of what DT-inspired metal should sound like in 2019. Funny thing is that their weak link is also the singer



I was watching an interview with Mike Portnoy and the Neal Morse band because they'd just done another one of those cruise ship gigs a month ago. Two of the Haken guys were there so Mike could play some DT songs with them. He said the same thing as everyone else: in his view, Haken is doing what DT was aspiring to do back in the day. 

Massive compliment to those guys, obviously. I've never gotten the comparison, however. To me, Haken has a much different sound than Dream Theater, to an extent that their music isn't particularly similar. There's other, lesser-known bands in that genre that are closer to their sound. I remember Riverside sounding similar, but it's been ages since I listened to their stuff. 

I think what mostly elicits the comparison is the fact that DT's genre of progressive metal has declined a bit, and Haken seems to be making the most complex and ambitious music (not to mention the most successful) out of all their peers. Which in a nutshell is what DT was to that genre 10-20 years ago (and to some extent still is).


----------



## Exchanger

Sermo Lupi said:


> To me, Haken has a much different sound than Dream Theater, to an extent that their music isn't particularly similar. There's other, lesser-known bands in that genre that are closer to their sound. I remember Riverside sounding similar, but it's been ages since I listened to their stuff.
> 
> I think what mostly elicits the comparison is the fact that DT's genre of progressive metal has declined a bit, and Haken seems to be making the most complex and ambitious music (not to mention the most successful) out of all their peers. Which in a nutshell is what DT was to that genre 10-20 years ago (and to some extent still is).



Yeah there were already legions of DT clones, but Haken brought their own twist to it, they didn't just copy the style, eventhough the DT influences are clearly there, especially in Visions. As you mentionned, they are in league with MP. Diego (keys) is also in cahoots with JR. And while all these "DT will always be better" and "Haken do it better" comments annoy the shit out of me, you could say that Haken is Dream Theater's continuum (get it ?).


----------



## p0ke

Ola Englund said:


> I've been listening to this album now for a week. It's a good Dream Theater album. It's growing on me. Don't know why but I'm liking Viper King the most. Weird that it's a bonus song on the album



It's a great song, but it doesn't really suit the mood of the rest of the album imo. Could just be because it's last and sort of after the ending of the album though, maybe I should make a playlist and try it at different spots on the album


----------



## Ola Englund

p0ke said:


> It's a great song, but it doesn't really suit the mood of the rest of the album imo. Could just be because it's last and sort of after the ending of the album though, maybe I should make a playlist and try it at different spots on the album


I think it's why I like it, I think the production of the whole album fits this song the absolute most. It sounds killer


----------



## Thaeon

I haven't listened to this album at all. I've been pretty disappointed with the last two albums. There were a couple tracks that I loved, but on the whole, not a DT album like Images and Words or Falling into Infinity, or even 6 Degrees.


----------



## thedonal

Thaeon said:


> I haven't listened to this album at all. I've been pretty disappointed with the last two albums. There were a couple tracks that I loved, but on the whole, not a DT album like Images and Words or Falling into Infinity, or even 6 Degrees.



I would give it at least a listen through on your streaming medium of choice. I'd say it's definitely better than the last 3 for sure and arguably the last 6 or so.


----------



## Thaeon

I haven't liked anything since 6 degrees except for some of Black Clouds. I hated the couple albums after 6 Degrees. It's like they were trying to fit in with all the stuff happening around then.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

I think it works really well as sort of an encore to the album actually. I dig it. 

I'm REALLY digging "at wits end" lately. Some of the vocal lines and rhythms actually made me do a double take in surprise. They sound both traditional and totally different at the same time. 

And then Trooch's solo at the end is just 1993 petrucci reincarnated. Beautiful. Dripping in reverb. I love it. Somehow the fade out even works.


----------



## Musiscience

DLG said:


> Definitely agree that Haken is a great example of what DT-inspired metal should sound like in 2019. Funny thing is that their weak link is also the singer



Thanks for making me discover Haken! They’re great from what I just listened to. I do disagree on the vocals though, they are miles ahead of the nasal sounding screech from Labrie.

Can’t help but wonder how they would sound with a decent sounding vocalist (not that Labrie is not talented as far as range and etc.)


----------



## RevDrucifer

Musiscience said:


> Can’t help but wonder how they would sound with a decent sounding vocalist (not that Labrie is not talented as far as range and etc.)



Hahahaha.....I got into DT around 1996, this is easily the most common critique I've heard the entire time. I definitely didn't dig his voice when I first started listening to them. In fact, I forced myself to like them because I knew it'd be good for my guitar playing. Man....that was a long time ago, I was in 8th grade back then.


----------



## thesnowdog

I never even knew his voice was controversial until about ten years after I first heard I&W. 

Everyone I knew thought it was at least unworthy of discussion but I was late to the interwebs; a kinder, gentler time.


----------



## Musiscience

thesnowdog said:


> I never even knew his voice was controversial until about ten years after I first heard I&W.
> 
> Everyone I knew thought it was at least unworthy of discussion but I was late to the interwebs; a kinder, gentler time.



Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no hate towards Labrie. He has a powerful voice and sings on key. But for some reason, the tone of his voice has always been very unpleasant to me.


----------



## Thaeon

Musiscience said:


> Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no hate towards Labrie. He has a powerful voice and sings on key. But for some reason, the tone of his voice has always been very unpleasant to me.



I completely understand. I feel this way about Robert Plant. Can't stand his voice. I love Cornell and Ian Thornley which I would say are probably the closest modern singers to him. But, I can't stand the tone of Robert Plant's voice.


----------



## beerandbeards

I wouldn’t say I’m a big DT fan but I’m enjoying this album. I think James sounds really good on this album. I love “At wits end” solo .


----------



## Ralyks

James LaBrie’s vocals to Dream Theater are what Dave Mustaines vocals are to Megadeth; sure, they but not be great, they may be downright bad, but seriously, who else can you picture singing The Conjuring or Tornado of Souls?


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

While Its not my favorite album, Astonishing had some absolutely MONUMENTAL vocal performances by Labrie. Singing all the different characters and such. I was impressed. 

When I first popped this new one in, I kind of felt "eh... Not sure I want to listen to him sing right now" but as I got into it I fell back in love with his voice. It is unique. And it fits very well. 


Also side note: after trooch mentioning solo albums on a recent interview, I've decided that the NON-DT thing I want most from him is a power trio collab of him, portnoy, and Geddy Lee. Bring it on.


----------



## p0ke

Ralyks said:


> James LaBrie’s vocals to Dream Theater are what Dave Mustaines vocals are to Megadeth; sure, they but not be great, they may be downright bad, but seriously, who else can you picture singing The Conjuring or Tornado of Souls?



Yeah, even though I don't really like his voice either (neither of those really), I couldn't imagine another vocalist in Dream Theater.
Speaking about vocalists, who's doing the backing vocals on S2N? Sounds surprisingly much like Portnoy around the 1:30 mark IMO.


----------



## wankerness

thesnowdog said:


> I never even knew his voice was controversial until about ten years after I first heard I&W.
> 
> Everyone I knew thought it was at least unworthy of discussion but I was late to the interwebs; a kinder, gentler time.



What time was that? Any mention of DT on boards back around 2000 always was footnoted with "if you can get past the vocals." Though they'd also sometimes include "at least he's better than the first guy!"


----------



## Ralyks

thesnowdog said:


> I never even knew his voice was controversial until about ten years after I first heard I&W. .



James vocals in the 90s were excellent. Then he had that vocal injury around Six Degrees and that's where most of the complaints began coming in.

But man, he had some killer performances on I&W and Awake.


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Ralyks said:


> James vocals in the 90s were excellent. Then he had that vocal injury around Six Degrees and that's where most of the complaints began coming in.
> 
> But man, he had some killer performances on I&W and Awake.


Innocence Faded from Awake is just tops.


----------



## scrub

Give me Dream Theater with Geoff Tate.


----------



## Ralyks

scrub said:


> Give me Dream Theater with Geoff Tate.



... Tate now or during the golden Rage/Mind time era?


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

I would love to see TROOCH paired up with Miles Kennedy sometime. Not for dream theater tho.


----------



## scrub

Ralyks said:


> ... Tate now or during the golden Rage/Mind time era?



Mind crime era. However, I saw Tate maybe 3 years ago and he still sounds amazing.


----------



## fps

Ralyks said:


> James LaBrie’s vocals to Dream Theater are what Dave Mustaines vocals are to Megadeth; sure, they but not be great, they may be downright bad, but seriously, who else can you picture singing The Conjuring or Tornado of Souls?



Well now I'm picturing James LaBrie singing 'em.


----------



## Ralyks

fps said:


> Well now I'm picturing James LaBrie singing 'em.



Hey, he attempted the whole Master of Puppets album


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

James LaBrie at his prime is one of the best vocalists ever dont @ me


----------



## r33per

Ralyks said:


> Hey, he attempted the whole Master of Puppets album


Sing 'Em All


----------



## eggy in a bready

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> James LaBrie at his prime is one of the best vocalists ever dont @ me


ew


----------



## DLG

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> James LaBrie at his prime is one of the best vocalists ever dont @ me



wouldn't necessarily go that far but in his prime, he was the absolutely perfect vocalist for Dream Theater in their prime (Images, Awake, ACoS). Had the range and skills to match their playing ability perfectly.

It really is a shame that he messed up his vocals so badly and it's pretty much a miracle he still sings.


----------



## Alex79

James LaBrie's vocals are the main reason I like Dream Theater. He conveys a lot of emotion in many songs and is the glue that ties the super complex music together. 
A lot of the people here don't realise that without his voice breathing life into the songs this would just be another "Animals as leaders", which is ok if you like that kind of thing, but really just an instrumental niche.


----------



## wankerness

I don't think his voice is particularly appealing, and he sounds like a moron when he tries to sound congenial and gentle (think the opening to Finally Free). I think his vocal MELODIES are what's holding the band together and that they don't get anywhere near enough credit. I think many of their songs are probably memorable primarily because of them. I just don't know if they're specifically created by him or whether some other dude could have sung the same things and the band would have been better.


----------



## ddtonfire

wankerness said:


> I think his vocal MELODIES are what's holding the band together and that they don't get anywhere near enough credit.



I recall reading that in their earlier days, whoever wrote the lyrics also wrote the melody for that particular song. Given MP's increased control in the band, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a _very _heavy hand later on in the vocal melodies.

Piggybacking on your point, if you do want to hear what pure JLB melody composition is, listen to the DT self-titled (which he did 100% insulated from the band) or any of his solo stuff.


----------



## p0ke

For whatever reason I find myself wanting to listen to Out of Reach most from the new album now. I haven't paid attention to the lyrics so I don't know about the cheese people are talking about, but the melancholic vibe of the song just hits somewhere really deep inside. It almost makes me wish the song would be longer and grow into some heavier stuff, but then again it would probably ruin it.


----------



## beerandbeards

Johns solo are superb and the non shreddy solos are so much feel. The solo at the end of “Wits End” sounds like an eagle flying into a sunset over a mountain singing Celine Dion lol


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Not to derail, but THANK YOU to the folks in this thread that discussed Haken. I never gave this band a chance after hearing Cockroach King a long time back and not digging. Well fast forward and I've bought the last four albums now and totally binging on them nearly every day. Crap these guys are great!


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

I just realized that Viper King is basically classic Boston, but metal.


----------



## beerandbeards

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I just realized that Viper King is basically classic Boston, but metal.



That groovey ass riff in the beginning slays


----------



## Exchanger

TheShreddinHand said:


> Not to derail, but THANK YOU to the folks in this thread that discussed Haken. I never gave this band a chance after hearing Cockroach King a long time back and not digging. Well fast forward and I've bought the last four albums now and totally binging on them nearly every day. Crap these guys are great!


Better late than never. Welcome to the party


----------



## musicman61554

beerandbeards said:


> Johns solo are superb and the non shreddy solos are so much feel. The solo at the end of “Wits End” sounds like an eagle flying into a sunset over a mountain singing Celine Dion lol



This so much.........I got goosebumps listening to that.......LOVE IT


----------



## crazyprofessor

musicman61554 said:


> This so much.........I got goosebumps listening to that.......LOVE IT



One of my favorite moments on this album. 

This whole album has been kicking my ass for the last couple of weeks. It's such a great return to form. Where have they been? I couldn't even make it through The Astonishing.... This album is supreme... and reminiscent of their glory years.


----------



## LordCashew

TheShreddinHand said:


> Not to derail, but THANK YOU to the folks in this thread that discussed Haken. I never gave this band a chance after hearing Cockroach King a long time back and not digging. Well fast forward and I've bought the last four albums now and totally binging on them nearly every day. Crap these guys are great!



I had the exact same experience. Cockroach King was a bit much for my first listen, with the multi-layered vocals coming across as kind of self-indulgent.  Once I heard 1985 I was hooked, and now I celebrate their entire catalog. Even Cockroach King grew on me.


----------



## devastone

Hmm, now I have to look up Haken.

Been listening to the new DT and like it better than the last few, but I've never been a huge fan of JLB's vocals, even on Images.

Back in the day, Tate was amazing, haven't heard him recently. 

I'm listening to SoA right now and Soto's voice has the cajones that JLB's don't, but he may not have the range(?).


----------



## p0ke

Wow, DT premiered some of the new songs live yesterday, including PBD:



I'll have to say, Labrie's sounding surprisingly good there!


----------



## TheShreddinHand

LordIronSpatula said:


> I had the exact same experience. Cockroach King was a bit much for my first listen, with the multi-layered vocals coming across as kind of self-indulgent.  Once I heard 1985 I was hooked, and now I celebrate their entire catalog. Even Cockroach King grew on me.



1985!! Same for me, I love it! Haken has made me want an 8 string for the first time.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

devastone said:


> Hmm, now I have to look up Haken.
> 
> Been listening to the new DT and like it better than the last few, but I've never been a huge fan of JLB's vocals, even on Images.
> 
> Back in the day, Tate was amazing, haven't heard him recently.
> 
> I'm listening to SoA right now and Soto's voice has the cajones that JLB's don't, but he may not have the range(?).



If you’re an amazon prime member you can download Affinity for free. If not, all their albums are streaming on YouTube. Start with Affinity or Vector and work backwards. That’s what I did.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Ralyks said:


> James vocals in the 90s were excellent. Then he had that vocal injury around Six Degrees and that's where most of the complaints began coming in.
> 
> But man, he had some killer performances on I&W and Awake.



The food poisoning incident was nearly 10 years before 6 Degrees.


----------



## RevDrucifer

scrub said:


> Give me Dream Theater with Geoff Tate.



This is as close as you'll get, outside of the tour they did with Ryche in '03 where he sang "The Spirit Carries On" with them.


----------



## R34CH

Managed to catch these guys live when they came through LA on Friday. Great live show, much better than when I saw them last time on Images, Words, and Beyond a couple years back. Here's a couple disorganized thoughts that you may or may not care about:

LaBrie sounded _fantastic_. He was dead on for most of the night and absolutely destroyed the closing tracks of Scenes from a Memory. This is in interesting contrast to last time I saw them come through where he noticeably struggled. Most likely this is because it was only the 2nd or 3rd show of the tour whereas last time I saw them it was more towards the middle so he'd already thrashed his voice.
Either the rest of the band are giants or Petrucci is pretty short. Guess he makes up for it in biceps size.
Hands down, the guy having the most fun on stage was Mangini. Huge smile on his face the entire time, always engaging with other band members, and fantastic playing in general.
Myung's right hand is ridiculous. That's all.
The songs that they played from the new album were good and people loved them, but the crowd really came alive when they started in on Scenes from a Memory. Obviously, the crowd was full of a bunch of guys in their 50s that had been with DT from the beginning but I was also surprised that the younger people also seem to gel with the Scenes stuff more - people were singing every word of the entire album.
I'm really digging these anniversary tours that DT has been doing. I thought this one was a lot better than the Images and Words one but it's probably because I like Scenes more than I&W and spent the last couple months listening to it a lot in preparation.  Hoping they do Awake next as Lie was the song that originally inspired me to get a 7.
TL;DR. If DT is coming near you on this tour cycle - go see them no questions asked.

Setlist (in spoilers in case you're planning on going and want to be surprised)


Spoiler: Setlist




Untethered Angel
A Nightmare to Remember
Fall into the Light
Barstool Warrior
In the Presence of Enemies PT. I
Pale Blue Dot
INTERMISSION

Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory

Encore: Pull Me Under

The encore kind of surprised me given they had just finished touring I&W. Obviously the fans were digging it but I'm wondering if they just go lazy and thought, "Eff it, let's just do something we already have practiced and ready to go..." especially after having to relearn all of Scenes.


----------



## DLG

RevDrucifer said:


> This is as close as you'll get, outside of the tour they did with Ryche in '03 where he sang "The Spirit Carries On" with them.




Dude sounds a lot more like Geddy Lee than Tate.


----------



## devastone

I met Mangini briefly when he was touring with Vai in '99/'00 after a show in Vegas, super, super nice guy, and seemed to enjoy playing.


----------



## beerandbeards

I bought a ticket for their show in CT coming up. I’ve never seen them live and I’m excited. I listened to “Scene from a memory” a lot last summer so I’m familiar enough to enjoy this upcoming show.


----------



## Ralyks

R34CH said:


> Hoping they do Awake next as Lie was the song that originally inspired me to get a 7.



If they do Awake, I will purchase VIP, front row, whatever, I will absolutely splurge for an Awake anniversary tour. Top 5 album for me.

I really debating this tour. They’re playing NYC on April 12th, my birthday. It would be my, shit, 13th time seeing DT?


----------



## Avedas

These guys better announce the Asia tour leg soon. I really want to see this show.


----------



## DarthV

I think it's how much air/width they added to James' voice that have really killed the last few albums for me


----------



## StrmRidr

Am I the only one that thinks At Wit's End should have closed the album?


----------



## Avedas

StrmRidr said:


> Am I the only one that thinks At Wit's End should have closed the album?


Yeah the ambient room mic bit is perfect. I would have preferred that over Pale Blue Dot. But Viper King is perfect in its own way as a bonus track ending.


----------



## Lukhas

Speaking of ambient room mikes... Maybe with a bit over 5.750€ in mics alone on Thomann, you too can sound just like John Petrucci!


----------



## beerandbeards

I’m going to see DT tonight in CT! I haven’t been to a show in a long time so I’m pretty stoked plus their playing material from two great albums


----------



## beerandbeards

They were amazing tonight. The levels in the venue would perfect. I’d say it took a song before they found that level. Mangini sounded awesome. Labrie was not bad at all.
It was a heavier set which was appreciated


----------



## LiveOVErdrive

Pale blue dot somehow feels so Rush


----------



## lurè

LiveOVErdrive said:


> Pale blue dot somehow feels so Rush



For me is S2N; the intro is just so Rush to my ears


----------



## Lukhas

As said by John Petrucci, John Myung's fingers do look like spiders when he's playing.  Apparently he's got a Signature bass coming in 2020, most likely with the narrower neck design that usual 6 string basses he's known to use (like a 5 string bass neck but with six strings).


----------



## A-Branger

Lukhas said:


> As said by John Petrucci, John Myung's fingers do look like spiders when he's playing.  Apparently he's got a Signature bass coming in 2020, most likely with the narrower neck design that usual 6 string basses he's known to use (like a 5 string bass neck but with six strings).




kinda excited about it (as a DT fanboi) but then again I dont play 6 and I doubt EBMM would release a 5 string version :/ plus he used to have silver even a blue bongo at one point (and the aqua and red basses with yamaha before going into the silver one) but now its all black with black and chrome hardware (and rosewood)..... the most "basic" and boring combination, speially when EBMM have the stealth black with black hardware, lots of colors, bass of the month thing they did, sparkles, and everything he would prob want as his status as a player.... but nope, lets go with black *roll eyes*

I just wonder if they would stick with the Bongo or make some changes to it?


----------



## TedEH

I haven't kept up with this thread much so maybe it's been discussed already, but am I imagining it that Distance Over Time sounds suuuuuuuuuuuuuper compressed? Not in a Metallica-Crushed-Until-It-Distorts kind of way, but so much of the mix is smashed together in this one. It doesn't sound bad to me overall, but I can hear the compression kick in sometimes and it caught me off guard that it'd be so noticeable on a big commercial release like this.


----------



## thedonal

Yeah- there's a lot of squish going on. I found it to be noticeable in places but right through the album.


----------



## Evan89

Introducing "How It's Played", a series where I demonstrate riffs/licks that previously have not been transcribed correctly. My plan is to do one of these for every Dream Theater song from Images and Words through Scenes From a Memory. I'll be emailing the tabs for free, in Guitar Pro 7 & PDF formats. I think I'll do Images next and work chronologically from there.


----------



## bostjan

Evan89 said:


> Introducing "How It's Played", a series where I demonstrate riffs/licks that previously have not been transcribed correctly. My plan is to do one of these for every Dream Theater song from Images and Words through Scenes From a Memory. I'll be emailing the tabs for free, in Guitar Pro 7 & PDF formats. I think I'll do Images next and work chronologically from there.



Is that the only riff from ACOS you are doing?


----------



## Evan89

bostjan said:


> Is that the only riff from ACOS you are doing?


No, I have at least 2 more planned. Any requests?


----------



## bostjan

Evan89 said:


> No, I have at least 2 more planned. Any requests?


No requests, but it's my fave DT song. I once figured it all out by ear, because, at the time, no ofc tab was available. I have most of the rest of their older ofc tab books, and they can be hit and miss. But kudos, and I'd like to stay tuned.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Got Evans transcription of the whole song today and it’s on point! I was definitely doing some things wrong in this song.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

I updated this lick because while I had the correct notes, I was actually using a more difficult fingering than the way JP plays it live. Somehow I had forgotten that this part is shown clearly on Live at Budokan - Instrumedley.

I've updated my transcription, and if you'd like the free tab book, please email me at [email protected] or [email protected]


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

Stay tuned for my Images and Words tab book and lessons next week!


----------



## Evan89

My free Images and Words tab book is now available! The original book for this album has tons of errors and inaccuracies in it, which I'll be pointing out in my "How It's Played" series. My free book for A Change of Seasons is also available, and I'll be releasing books for Awake, Falling Into Infinity, and Scenes From a Memory in the coming weeks. Just email me at [email protected] or [email protected] for the book.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

This solo is actually much easier to play than how it's written in the original tab book.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

My free Awake tab book is available now!


----------



## Evan89

One of the recurring themes with the old Dream Theater tab books: take an already difficult part and make it practically impossible by transcribing it in a horribly awkward way.


----------



## kamello

@Evan89 thank you so much for this <3 
the one for Surrounded really helped me, never could figure a comfortable way to play that one

will it be too much to ask for a video on the Unison in Hell's Kitchen? the one at the 3 minute mark, same deal as Surrounded, even though it seems pretty simple, I've never could find a way to play it comfortable


----------



## Evan89

kamello said:


> @Evan89 thank you so much for this <3
> the one for Surrounded really helped me, never could figure a comfortable way to play that one
> 
> will it be too much to ask for a video on the Unison in Hell's Kitchen? the one at the 3 minute mark, same deal as Surrounded, even though it seems pretty simple, I've never could find a way to play it comfortable


Thank you @kamello , it's great to hear that these videos and tabs are helpful to fellow fans. I already have parts picked out to discuss for the rest of the songs, and of course I chose that part in Hell's Kitchen! The way it's written in the original Falling Into Infinity book is way wrong. That book is pretty terrible in general.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## A-Branger

Evan89 said:


> I updated this lick because while I had the correct notes, I was actually using a more difficult fingering than the way JP plays it live. Somehow I had forgotten that this part is shown clearly on Live at Budokan - Instrumedley.
> 
> I've updated my transcription, and if you'd like the free tab book, please email me at [email protected] or [email protected]



dude fucking thank you, I would email you later tonight.

but........ did you tab the bass too?.. pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase tell me you did???, Im primarily a bass player and it alwys was a pain in the ass to find "accurate" bass tabs for it, not counting that bass books were non-existing apart from the ACOS and some compilation one


----------



## Evan89

A-Branger said:


> dude fucking thank you, I would email you later tonight.
> 
> but........ did you tab the bass too?.. pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase tell me you did???, Im primarily a bass player and it alwys was a pain in the ass to find "accurate" bass tabs for it, not counting that bass books were non-existing apart from the ACOS and some compilation one


Sorry man, just guitar parts. It's possible I could do some bass tabs in the future, but generally I am a guitar transcriber.


----------



## A-Branger

Evan89 said:


> Sorry man, just guitar parts. It's possible I could do some bass tabs in the future, but generally I am a guitar transcriber.


noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo........ I still love you, but....... nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Lax

It's easy the bass is the same as the guitar XD


----------



## A-Branger

Lax said:


> It's easy the bass is the same as the guitar XD


ha....ha...ha.....

for the unisons yeah, kinda. But theres alot of stuff tht goes un-noticed (thaanks to the stupid mix), which is been pretty hard to find an accurate tab that shows what he actually plays rather than just the root note of the chord

I know bass players arent that many v guitar players, but I always get annoyed on how many guitar books are out there, yet vey few care about doing the bass


----------



## Evan89

The original book is missing some key details in the "classical" section:


----------



## Evan89

And here's a quick video on some blues licks from the Voices solo:


----------



## Evan89

Another part that was unplayable in the original Awake book:


----------



## Evan89

JP posted a new riff today on instagram, so I transcribed it and did a playthrough:


----------



## Evan89

I swear the original transcribers wrote out some of these parts without ever thinking about how to actually play them.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

My free Falling Into Infinity tab book is available now!


----------



## Evan89

Once again, even the simplest songs have lots of errors in the original tab book.


----------



## Evan89

Bet you never knew there was a 7-string on this song!


----------



## kamello

holy shit, no


----------



## Evan89

Another relatively simple song with some baffling chord voicings in the original tab book.


----------



## Evan89

The original transcription of this song is absolutely horrendous:


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

Another surprise 7-string part!


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

Lots of interesting experimentation on this song:


----------



## Evan89

Another one of my personal favorites. My Scenes From a Memory book will be available tomorrow!


----------



## Evan89

My free Scenes From a Memory tab book is available now! This is the final chapter in my Dream Theater 1990s transcription project.


----------



## Lukhas

Send my best to John Myung. Too bad for the audio quality.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Kaura

Evan89 said:


>




Finally. Overture 1928 is a song that I've tried to tackle for like 10 years now and I still can't nail it. Mind sending me the tabs over a pm so I can see if your tabs make more sense than the ancient Guitar Pro file I've been using?


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Ralyks

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/j...-that-liquid-tension-experiment-will-regroup/

Rudess saying that a LTE reunion is very likely. Huzzah.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Ralyks said:


> https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/j...-that-liquid-tension-experiment-will-regroup/
> 
> Rudess saying that a LTE reunion is very likely. Huzzah.



Yeah saw this yesterday and super pumped!!


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Ralyks

So on top of the LTE reunion, I just saw Petruccis Instagram tease what appears to be a new solo album "Terminal Velocity" for the fall.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Ralyks said:


> So on top of the LTE reunion, I just saw Petruccis Instagram tease what appears to be a new solo album "Terminal Velocity" for the fall.


 Is it bad that when this whole COVID lockdown hit and JP went a little dark on social media that I had already thought it’s what he’d be doing with his time?! Haha


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89




----------



## Evan89

Final episode (for now):


----------



## Lukhas

Who knew that Along For the Ride might actually be a good song?


----------



## PyramidSmasher

I was a big fan of when Dream Theater went nu-metalish (train of thought through Systematic Chaos). I just thought that dark edge was what was missing before/after even though Im sure it came off as corny to alot of their fans. In 2005/6 I was kind of a generic metal dude I was into like Pantera/Megadeth but I also listened to the shit out of Train of Thought because it had some of that grit to it where as my dad had always told me I wouldnt like them cause they werent heavy. I know their earlier music has some heaviness especially Awake but I feel like Train of Thought, Octavarium, and Systematic Chaos put that aspect up front


----------



## ddtonfire

Lukhas said:


> Who knew that Along For the Ride might actually be a good song?



I wish JR would do something like this with JLB.


----------



## Lukhas

ddtonfire said:


> I wish JR would do something like this with JLB.


It could be nice; I don't see LaBrie exposing himself directly to the public though. He's been getting enough flak for his vocals already. Speaking of pipe dreams, I wish LaBrie would sing a good Major Third down instead of stretching his vocal chords too thin, but alas we don't always get what we want. My memory says that LaBrie sounds better on his solo records where he sings a little bit lower, but I could be remembering poorly. At the very least, he didn't sound as artificially enhanced as he is in Dream Theater. Maybe.


----------



## StevenC

Lukhas said:


> It could be nice; I don't see LaBrie exposing himself directly to the public though. He's been getting enough flak for his vocals already. Speaking of pipe dreams, I wish LaBrie would sing a good Major Third down instead of stretching his vocal chords too thin, but alas we don't always get what we want. My memory says that LaBrie sounds better on his solo records where he sings a little bit lower, but I could be remembering poorly. At the very least, he didn't sound as artificially enhanced as he is in Dream Theater. Maybe.


There's a story about Chris Squire spending the whole recording of Drama yelling at Trevor Horn to sing higher, so I wonder if something like that is going on.


----------



## The Mirror

Lukhas said:


> I wish LaBrie would sing a good Major Third down



Just make it a fourth, which practically forces Petrucci to finally use a damn 8-string guitar if the band goes down the same steps to fit to the new vocals.

Win-Win


----------



## Furtive Glance

Lukhas said:


> It could be nice; I don't see LaBrie exposing himself directly to the public though. He's been getting enough flak for his vocals already. Speaking of pipe dreams, I wish LaBrie would sing a good Major Third down instead of stretching his vocal chords too thin, but alas we don't always get what we want. My memory says that LaBrie sounds better on his solo records where he sings a little bit lower, but I could be remembering poorly. At the very least, he didn't sound as artificially enhanced as he is in Dream Theater. Maybe.



_Elements of Persuasion_ kicks serious ass (aside from the crazy-super-hot mastering or whatever that term is).


----------



## Lukhas

StevenC said:


> There's a story about Chris Squire spending the whole recording of Drama yelling at Trevor Horn to sing higher, so I wonder if something like that is going on.


LaBrie's high vocals are seen as part of the signature sound of Dream Theater. That demand is how you see vocalists ruining their voices because they have to sign like on the record, or just like how they used to be able to or close to either. LaBrie made a career out of that sound after all, I doubt he'll be particularly unhappy about his path. 

That being said, I also think that at this stage of their career, it'd be wiser to adapt to what each member currently can do instead of what they used to be able to do ages ago; especially for singers. I think LaBrie still has quality in his voice, but that quality no longer is singing that stupidly high like a facsimile of how he used to sign in the I&W era. His sweetspot probably has gone quite a bit lower with time; just write there and he'll sound good. Right now with the studio "enhancements" and his peculiar timbre, he can sometimes almost sound like an android.


The Mirror said:


> Just make it a fourth, which practically forces Petrucci to finally use a damn 8-string guitar if the band goes down the same steps to fit to the new vocals.
> 
> Win-Win


They could just re-arrange the vocals like they did for A Change of Seasons. Apparently the original version they wanted featured on I&W was sung higher, and they had to adapt it after LaBrie's first vocal problems. 

I did not mean to rain on the 8 string parade!


----------



## AwakeFM

I was a *huge* DT fan back in the day, When Dream and Day Unite, Images and Words, Awake and A Change of Seasons were foundational to younger me getting started as a guitar player and musician. I forged some friendships in the old DT bulletin board (The Ytsejam!) that are still going strong to this day. I wrecked my Dad's mustang flying around back country roads at night to "Under a Glass Moon" and turned 21 years old at a DT show and met John Petrucci afterward - such great memories.
I wasn't into their sound after Kevin Moore left, but I still purchased every album up to and including 'Train of Thought' hoping it would return. There were bits and pieces of the old DT in there, but it seemed like they just couldn't hold it together for an entire song. Rudessess' ragtime breakdowns just started pissing me off after a while. To be fair, my tastes had also got much heavier as time went on, and while I still would catch a live show here and there if they were close by, my interest in DT faded.

A couple years ago, they came through town on the "Images and Words" anniversary tour and I decided to go at the last minute. The arena was packed, but lucked out and ended up getting front row center seats at the box office. They absolutely KILLED IT. For a few hours I felt like a kid in the 90's again. It was fucking awesome. When they came back for the encore they played A Change of Seasons in it's entirety and I was nearly brought to tears. It was an incredible show and I'll never forget it.

I'm not into their current sound but I certainly respect what they've been able to do over the years. It felt like that I&W show was just for old fans like me and they knew it. Rock on DT, rock on.


----------



## Evan89

I transcribed the whole album in a couple weeks, it was good timing since I was in between tab book projects.



Playlist for all of the songs:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNYXfMfhF-A-gXlRIC8iB53X0BJnttQL2


----------



## HungryGuitarStudent

@Evan89 you’re a machine, wow !


----------



## Lukhas

Guess who gets a new signature instrument.



Lukhas said:


> [Insert predictable yet funny joke about CGI]
> 
> He does seem pretty enthusiastic about it. Hardly ever heard him string that many sentences together.


----------



## Furtive Glance

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...7rp3PXYcF5xdwUQkdwTSgdarEOK73FINFYx1sDm3Ku8ys

That is a brutal URL. But anyway, TL;DR: 
"So, specifically, we are going to come out with an eight-string Majesty model, and that is something that's being developed, it's been a project that we've been working on - myself and the engineers that are in Ernie Ball Music Man.

"And it should be ready in some form, even if it's a prototype, for me to be able to use on the next Dream Theater album.


----------



## p0ke




----------



## Avedas

Mmm it's in 4K. Pretty excited to watch that especially since the show I was supposed to see on that tour was cancelled twice.


----------



## nickgray

p0ke said:


>




LaBrie looks... interesting.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

nickgray said:


> LaBrie looks... interesting.



I was also a bit concerned on how his face is looking here. Hope he’s alright. Dude needed to run a comb through the back of his hair.

DT has been my favorite band since the mid 90s but man they are boring live here in this video. Mangini is the only one really showing signs of life here. I’ll probably still pick up the Blu-ray but it’s not doing much for me beyond just listening to the studio album.


----------



## brector

I like the drummer's safety glasses


----------



## Evan89

I'm back with another transcription!


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Lukhas

Might be worth a bump, although I don't think many have missed out on this.





Surely it cannot be worse than the Megadeth Christmas Special! 



More or less seriously, there's their new live album.


----------



## VibTDog

I got into Dream Theater back in 1993, when they started playing Pull Me Under on the radio and Headbangers Ball. I couldn't believe that James sported a Napalm Death shirt in the video. I've liked them ever since, but I will admit they're hit or miss. Some songs are amazing and some are very passable.


----------



## p0ke

Petrucci just shared a pic on Instagram where a musicman headstock with 8 tuners can be seen:







https://www.instagram.com/p/CIis2p_h9Ay/?igshid=1xcskz82une52


----------



## XPT707FX

I remember Petrucci talking about wanting to get a prototype 8 string done during the Images & Words anniversary tour in an Andertons Interview


----------



## p0ke

XPT707FX said:


> I remember Petrucci talking about wanting to get a prototype 8 string done during the Images & Words anniversary tour in an Andertons Interview



Yeah, he's been talking about it in various places, but now it's reality


----------



## RevDrucifer

I think it was the Music Is Win interview he did a couple weeks ago where he confirmed there was an 8-string in the works. I think he also stated that he hadn’t played one at all at that point.


----------



## Evan89

I think this is a good way to cap off my Dream Theater transcriptions in 2020. This is my 44th DT tab that I've released this year! Bombay Vindaloo is an improvised jam that was only performed six times in 1993, so this was a unique challenge, given that there's no available video of this performance. I'm also planning on releasing another free tab book (not DT) in the very near future. 

Please email me at [email protected] or [email protected] for the free tab. If you've already received DT tabs from me before, this song has been added to the "miscellaneous songs" folder.


----------



## Mathemagician

Full disclosure, I def stole this. Lol.


----------



## groverj3

Picked up the Distant Memories blu ray set as an xmas gift to myself.

Subjected my 71 year old father to the first three songs. Comments from Dad:
"I can't tell what the words are." (Dad also happily listens to Joe Satriani)
"I don't like his beard. I think it looks trashy." (I have a beard)
"Is that a bass? I thought basses only have 4 strings."
"What's with the organ player? He seems pretty good." (Organ, lol)
"The singer looks too angry. I don't like his tattoos." (LaBrie is sporting a sleeve these days)
"How are there so many people there if I've never heard of these guys?"

Lots of gems. I don't think I made him a fan, but I think he kind of gets why I've seen them 10+ times over the past 15 years.

Solid Quarantismas Eve laughs .

Also, it does appear that LaBrie's vocals are retouched. Not out of the ordinary, and it doesn't seem to be distracting or constant, but I only watched a bit. He looks kind of rough at times though. At first I thought "well he's just getting older." Then I thought, "maybe he's gained a few pounds, I shouldn't criticize since I've gone up a bit this year." However, looking closer, he could be taking a steroid, something like prednisone as he doesn't seem to be experiencing weight gain consistent with the obvious facial swelling. That's a pretty common side effect of similar corticosteroids. Baseless speculation: he could be taking a steroid because of an allergic reaction to getting the sleeve done, but that seems unlikely to me compared to the more typical uses like treating inflammatory conditions (arthritis, etc.). He could even be taking it to reduce inflammation associated with overworking his voice. Though, I don't know if that has merit.

Hopefully the dude is alright. The fans sometimes give him shit, but I saw them on this tour and James was spot on at that show. I miss doing things.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

I have the Blu-ray too and need to get around to watching it. I did also notice from the videos posted to YouTube that labrie was looking a bit rough. Hope he’s ok.


----------



## p0ke

Ooh, I just read that Mike Mangini has finished tracking drums for the next DT album! Hell yes!

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/m...theater-lp-will-be-energetically-unrelenting/


----------



## Evan89

I've gotten a lot of requests to transcribe this solo. It was quite a challenge in spots, and syncing it perfectly with the video took a lot of time because Dream Theater didn't play to a click back then.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

p0ke said:


> Ooh, I just read that Mike Mangini has finished tracking drums for the next DT album! Hell yes!
> 
> https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/m...theater-lp-will-be-energetically-unrelenting/



So on the one hand I’m always pumped for a new DT! But on the other, John’s written a solo album, LTE3, and a new DT all in under a year?! His solo album is great, I’m just really hoping LTE3 and a new DT are not too stale and forced sounding.


----------



## p0ke

TheShreddinHand said:


> So on the one hand I’m always pumped for a new DT! But on the other, John’s written a solo album, LTE3, and a new DT all in under a year?! His solo album is great, I’m just really hoping LTE3 and a new DT are not too stale and forced sounding.



Yep, hope so. The new LTE song that was released a while ago was awesome though, so I have high hopes for both albums.


----------



## mastapimp

TheShreddinHand said:


> So on the one hand I’m always pumped for a new DT! But on the other, John’s written a solo album, LTE3, and a new DT all in under a year?! His solo album is great, I’m just really hoping LTE3 and a new DT are not too stale and forced sounding.


When the solo album came out I read an interview w/ John that was a track by track breakdown and he described that half the album was already in place years ago. Tracks that he was playing at G3 and guitar clinics. Considering he'd been sitting on these riffs for years, maybe he's got some ideas saved up for the DT album. I imagine the LTE stuff is probably all new and more spontaneous.


----------



## Manurack

I first heard of Dream Theater when I bought the first Gigantour DVD set when it was released when I was 16. John Petrucci had short spiked hair and rocked baggy pants and Mike Portnoy was still in the band. I'm not really a fan of the singer, but the band grew on me. 

Petrucci also recorded with Mesa Boogie Mark IV amps and had a mean ass guitar tone.

I remember when Portnoy left to join Avenged Sevenfold, things didn't work out and he tried to join Dream Theater again and the band basically said a big fuck you to him.


----------



## slan

Manurack said:


> I first heard of Dream Theater when I bought the first Gigantour DVD set when it was released when I was 16. John Petrucci had short spiked hair and rocked baggy pants and Mike Portnoy was still in the band. I'm not really a fan of the singer, but the band grew on me.
> 
> Petrucci also recorded with Mesa Boogie Mark IV amps and had a mean ass guitar tone.
> 
> I remember when Portnoy left to join Avenged Sevenfold, things didn't work out and he tried to join Dream Theater again and the band basically said a big fuck you to him.
> 
> View attachment 89632



Damn, haven't thought about that DVD in a while. It had one of the best live recordings of The Glass Prison!


----------



## Manurack

slan said:


> Damn, haven't thought about that DVD in a while. It had one of the best live recordings of The Glass Prison!



I know dude! That DVD also got me into Dry Kill Logic, Symphony X (Michael Romeo is amazing!), Nevermore and Fear Factory! I also loved the video when all the band's covered Cemetery Gates by Pantera after Dimebag Darrell passed away, it was a really nice tribute.


----------



## p0ke

slan said:


> The Glass Prison!



Ooh, gotta check that out then! The Glass Prison is my favorite DT track of all time...


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

I still follow DT closely and consider myself a fan, but I'm too old I guess to appreciate their most recent stuff, mostly hit & miss these days. I'm also heavily biased towards Kevin Moore song writing & Mike Portnoy drumming, so the current lineup doesn't really tickle my fancy as it used to do, last CD I really liked as a whole was prob. "Octavarium". I just flat out do not like how JR+DT sound together, something is off, and his ragtime/Broadway influences has no place there imho, sound completely ridiculous to these ears. LTE stuff is in a league of its own though. If u like Kevin Moore style, check out his Chroma Key stuff, totally different from DT, but has this dramatic melancholy ambient atmosphere to die for imho.

James is actually awesome imho, I love operatic high-pitched singing, and I concur that "Elements of Persuasion" has some awesome stuff.

Re John Petrucci, I don't know what to say but I also still prefer the past versions (up to 6DoIT). Maybe his tone, playing & song writing not as ferocious or wild/experimental as used to be, not sure. He used to surprise me with side projects like Explorer's Club's "Age of Impact", holy smokes!


----------



## Jarmake

Couldn't find this posted here, so here we go!

The best of times solo cover by 14 year old Juho Ranta-Maunus. Pretty damn good, if you ask me.

He's even got some Guthrie Govan on his channel.


----------



## Jarmake

Errr... Where did the link go?


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Anyone watch the Live in Tokyo images and words concert from this past weekend? How is the quality, I’m debating getting the VOD.


----------



## p0ke

Jarmake said:


> Errr... Where did the link go?



Haha, I just hit like immediately when I saw the name  In case someone hasn't heard of him, he's a Finnish kid who won some worldwide young guitarist competition.


----------



## groverj3

TheShreddinHand said:


> Anyone watch the Live in Tokyo images and words concert from this past weekend? How is the quality, I’m debating getting the VOD.


Also interested. I heard that this was intended to be released on blu-ray/dvd a while back but the band wasn't happy with the mix or performance or whatever. Probably just internet rumor though.


----------



## Avedas

TheShreddinHand said:


> Anyone watch the Live in Tokyo images and words concert from this past weekend? How is the quality, I’m debating getting the VOD.





groverj3 said:


> Also interested. I heard that this was intended to be released on blu-ray/dvd a while back but the band wasn't happy with the mix or performance or whatever. Probably just internet rumor though.



It was leaked on Youtube like maybe around 2 years ago, but last I checked it's gone. I watched the whole thing since I couldn't make it to the show that day. Great production all around, but the mix was probably the worst live DVD mix I've heard in my life. I'm assuming they found a way to make it sound good if they've properly released it now.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Cool, I’m probably going to watch it Friday night.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Well I really enjoyed it! Great set list, solo spots, and cool little surprises like small part of enter sandman in C standard (which sounded killer). I really enjoyed hearing I&W and change of seasons tuned down a half step. They should just continue with that. Little extra heaviness and easier for James. While he did struggle at times, didn’t bother me any as I’m not a hyper critic like some folks are on him.


----------



## groverj3

Video on demand version was only until yesterday according to the website. Would like to check it out sometime though.


----------



## p0ke

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new..._song_with_8-string_guitar_for_new_album.html


----------



## Ralyks

p0ke said:


> https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new..._song_with_8-string_guitar_for_new_album.html



I feel like they said this about the last album, but hey, it is official this time...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ralyks said:


> I feel like they said this about the last album, but hey, it is official this time...



Before DoT was released, he didn't seem so sure. He just said "when it happens". Now that he actually has it, he's a lot more concrete about it.


----------



## Ralyks

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Before DoT was released, he didn't seem so sure. He just said "when it happens". Now that he actually has it, he's a lot more concrete about it.



I'm just curious what THAT EBMM model is going to look like. Or if he's using the one made for Jordan Ruddess a while back.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ralyks said:


> I'm just curious what THAT EBMM model is going to look like. Or if he's using the one made for Jordan Ruddess a while back.


I think he straight up said it's a Majesty. He already has a prototype.


----------



## p0ke

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think he straight up said it's a Majesty. He already has a prototype.



Yep, he said there's two Majesty prototypes and one ended up on the album.


----------



## Avedas

A new $10000 Majesty to record one song. Sounds about right.


----------



## groverj3

Avedas said:


> A new $10000 Majesty to record one song. Sounds about right.


Someone will buy one as soon as they're available. And they'll probably at least be a SS.org lurker, if not a regular poster. We all know this is true.


----------



## beerandbeards

groverj3 said:


> Someone will buy one as soon as they're available. And they'll probably at least be a SS.org lurker, if not a regular poster. We all know this is true.



_I entered the chat_


----------



## technomancer

groverj3 said:


> Someone will buy one as soon as they're available. And they'll probably at least be a SS.org lurker, if not a regular poster. We all know this is true.



Yep. There are a ton of Majesty models because people buy them. Myself included 

I realized a while ago 8s just aren't for me so not interested in the new 8 though... hoping something as cool as the Purple Nebula comes out for the 20th since I missed out on the Nebulas


----------



## bronxct1

Ralyks said:


> I'm just curious what THAT EBMM model is going to look like. Or if he's using the one made for Jordan Ruddess a while back.


John let some details out in his recent interview with Fluff. It's a hardtail Majesty with fanned frets.


----------



## p0ke

FYI: JP has a pretty awesome giveaway going on at his website - it includes a 7-string Majesty, JP signature wah etc! And best of all, it's a worldwide one.


----------



## technomancer

Just noticed a bunch of the JP variants are now listed as "color discontinued" on the EBMM website. Hoping we are getting close to the anniversary guitars release.

Looks like all but 3 of the Majesty models and all of the non-JP15s are listed that way.


----------



## Marked Man

bostjan said:


> I was all about Dream Theater when I was in my late teens and early twenties.
> 
> I started listening to them when a dear friend of mine introduced me to _Awake_. I had already heard "Under a Glass Moon," and thought that the song was radical, especially the crazy guitar solo, which, to this day, I still think is perhaps the best guitar solo ever. And, of course, I had heard "Pull Me Under." But, for whatever reason, I hadn't become fanatical about them. I guess part of it was that my musical tastes went through phases and I happened to be out of phase with progressive rock when _Images and Words_ came out, although I had previously been a big fan of Emerson Lake and Palmer as well as Rush...
> 
> I saw Dream Theater live more times than I can recall. I shudder to think about how much in total I've spent on concert tickets over the years, but I've only ever seen a handful of "mainstream" artists more than once: Dream Theater, Buckethead, Santana, Page and Plant, Metallica...I think that's it. I would have loved to have seen Symphony X multiple times, but I have terrible luck actually getting out to see them - either being out of town when they are in town, or, in one case, getting a terrible case of food poisoning.
> 
> I saw them play _A Change of Seasons_ with a local opening band that hung around the same circles my band did. The show was on top of a parking structure, and there were maybe a couple hundred people there. It was an incredible show - very intimate.
> 
> I also saw them at Gigantour, playing for a crowd of thousands and thousands, and that was an incredible show.
> 
> Of all the times I've seen them, I've actually never caught a bad show, but I will say that John Myung had a few minor flubs during earlier shows. It almost made me wonder if he did those on purpose just so people wouldn't start to doubt that the band members were human.
> 
> I know there's a lot of wang-measuring contests when it comes to bringing up players like Pettrucci or Malmsteen or whomever, but you can count me in with the small minority who things that these guys play some of the most tasteful stuff. All warp speed playing aside, I think 'Trutch is a phenomenal player who is super-musical and very diverse. I feel the same way about Mike Portnoy on the drums. No disrespect to Mangini, but I think it's a shame that Portnoy started clashing so much with the rest of the band and they couldn't reign him in, and instead ended up letting him go. I know that Mangini can keep up and whatever, but I don't feel the same chemistry with him, but, to be fair, the chemistry with Portnoy got weird there toward the end, as well, but I still like to think back to when the band was hitting on all cylinders, and how well it worked.
> 
> Now that I'm nearing 40 and have a baby at home and I've completed a few career arcs trying to be a serious adult, I really don't follow Dream Theater that closely. They're kind of like an old friend who used to be so much fun to be around, but, as you got older, the two of you developed gradually different tastes and drifted apart slowly, until you just don't call them anymore, but you still think about them and wonder how they are doing.




I think the final Portnoy album (Black Clouds.....) was one of their absolute career best. They haven't matched it since, although by the 3rd album, the other Mike had settled in with the band to a high degree, although he's no songwriter like Portnoy was....and he's not as much of an artist either.

I compare DT losing Portnoy to Slayer losing Lombardo. Sure, Bostaph was more of a precision machine, but the X-factor was lost forever.....


----------



## R34CH

technomancer said:


> Just noticed a bunch of the JP variants are now listed as "color discontinued" on the EBMM website.



Hope we get some good deals if stores blow out the old colors...could definitely go for a Majesty 7.


----------



## Lukhas

So here's how Maddy sets up Jonh Petrucci's guitars.


----------



## p0ke

I guess y'all already knew this, but anyway:







https://dreamtheater.net/dream-theater-return-with-a-view-from-the-top-of-the-world/

Who else is stoked for this? If they keep going the same way the previous album went, I'm gonna love it!


----------



## ArtDecade

^ Is that the real album cover? LOL.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

ArtDecade said:


> ^ Is that the real album cover? LOL.



It's going to be their ambient drone album, a tribute to the Myst game series.


----------



## ArtDecade

wheresthefbomb said:


> It's going to be their ambient drone album, a tribute to the Myst game series.



Myst! Spot on.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ArtDecade said:


> ^ Is that the real album cover? LOL.



All the budget went into R&D for Petrucci's 8-string and beard oil.


----------



## ArtDecade

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> All the budget went into R&D for Petrucci's 8-string and beard oil.



A shame they didn't spend the budget on a hunt for a new lead singer.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

ArtDecade said:


> A shame they didn't spend the budget on a hunt for a new lead singer.



I fully guffawed at my laptop screen and now there's oatmeal particulate everywhere, thanx.


----------



## DC23

Seems like a typical DT album cover to me. I've never really considered them the pinnacle of hip (do we remember The Astonishing or...)


----------



## gunshow86de

I mean...


----------



## brector

gunshow86de said:


> I mean...


Man those are awful. It's like they asked Rush's artist to have his kid toss something together


----------



## p0ke

brector said:


> Man those are awful. It's like they asked Rush's artist to have his kid toss something together



Yup... So in comparison the latest one is basically a masterpiece  This style of having seemingly random objects in some landscape is getting kinda old though, even though this latest one is definitely among the better ones...


----------



## Furtive Glance

I’m glad I’m not alone in my annoyance with Hugh Syme’s artwork. Annoyance is probably putting it lightly...


----------



## TGN

p0ke said:


> ...
> 
> Who else is stoked for this? If they keep going the same way the previous album went, I'm gonna love it!



Looking forward to it. I really liked the last album.


----------



## StevenC

Bring back Storm Thorgerson!


----------



## RevDrucifer

StevenC said:


> Bring back Storm Thorgerson!



That would be awesome. I loved the Falling Into Infinity artwork and everything Storm has done for Floyd, especially the Floyd stuff. (Getting the Division Bell stone heads on my forearm soon) 

While he passed away a couple years ago, Hypgnosis is still a thing and continuing to do work and it looks like they’re staying dedicated to carrying out Storm’s vision.


----------



## RevDrucifer

The last album was definitely their best since Portnoy left and I really hope they all met up to write the songs like they did last time. It’s crazy to me that a Dream Theater album exists and I have not listened to it all the way through (The Astonishing) because I couldn’t get past the first 10 minutes and haven’t tried since, considering how much of a die-hard fan I was. 

Really, I’ll bet anyone $5 that Portnoy ends up back in the band within the next 5 years. It’d be the biggest career move they’ve made yet, outside of switching labels and would be something the longtime fans would lose their shit over, in a good way.


----------



## bostjan

RevDrucifer said:


> While he passed away a couple years ago


It's been 8 years.



RevDrucifer said:


> Really, I’ll bet anyone $5 that Portnoy ends up back in the band within the next 5 years.



No disrespect for Mangini, but whether it's the way he fits the band or the way the other band members don't encourage his input, the band as a whole just isn't as good as it was with Portnoy, in my opinion.

I know Portnoy was the source of growly backing vocals and some other kind of silly stuff, but I'd rather listen to an interesting composition/arrangement with a few spoiler moments than an entire album that's just boring (to me [referring also to The Astonishing]). But, to be fair, a part of that might be just because I'm too old to really dig new music the way I used to. In my own defense, though, there are plenty of new bands that I do really like.


----------



## StevenC

bostjan said:


> No disrespect for Mangini, but whether it's the way he fits the band or the way the other band members don't encourage his input, the band as a whole just isn't as good as it was with Portnoy, in my opinion.


No offence to Portnoy, Mangini or Rudess, but the band as a whole just isn't as good as it was with Sherinian.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

StevenC said:


> No offence to Portnoy, Mangini or Rudess, but the band as a whole just isn't as good as it was with Sherinian.



Seriously, I'll take Mangini w/ Derek or Kevin over over Portnoy w/ Rudess.


----------



## StevenC

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Seriously, I'll take Mangini w/ Derek or Kevin over over Portnoy w/ Rudess.


I would kill to have Kevin back in Dream Theater, and don't trust anyone who thinks Scenes is better than Awake or Images and Words.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

While Kevin Moore and Derek Sherinian have both been active post-Dream Theater, it is clear Portnoy's ex-DT projects have found the most critical and commercial success of any past DT band member. You look at what Portnoy has done with the Neal Morse Band and Flying Colours and it rivals a lot of his work in DT in my opinion. His work with the Winery Dogs also deserves a special mention, partly because I think Ritchie Kotzen is the bee's knees. 

Adding Portnoy back to the DT roster makes that band better every day of the week--more so than any other past member. His track record is simply excellent. On the other hand, I think Portnoy became a convenient scapegoat for certain changes to DT's sound that other members were equally or more to blame. In that sense, he isn't going to change DT back into the band they were 20 years ago, so if that's what people are expecting they're going to be disappointed. 

I'd love to see Portnoy back in Dream Theater, though. Mostly because it just feels 'right'. I do find it conflicting, however, because Portnoy has produced so much great music away from Dream Theater in the last ~10 years. If you're into the prog genre and not just Dream Theater, it's become a dilemma of Metallica/Megadeth proportions.


----------



## bostjan

Bring back Charlie D.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> Bring back Charlie D.





Not sure if you checked out his late-2000s band, "Dominici", but they were actually really good. The backing band (which was essentially the Swiss/Italian prog metal act "Solid Vision", minus their vocalist) was stacked with talent. Brian Maillard, the guitarist, has continued to have success as a solo artist and is probably one of the best underrated players I know of. His playing is very 90s-era Petrucci. He's done some collaborations with Marco Sfogli that you can check out on Youtube if you're looking for a quick intro to his playing 

Anyway, I mention it because Charlie was trying to get that band back together around 2015 but there was no label support and it fizzled out. Obviously he'd never rejoin Dream Theater even if he wasn't 70. Still was kind of sad to see his career end that way after those three fantastic concept albums. I think he was mostly just looking to tour a bit as a last hurrah.


----------



## p0ke

I guess I'm pretty much the only DT fan in the world who doesn't miss Portnoy.
I mean, I appreciate him as a musician (how could anyone not?), but I always found him kinda annoying. I also don't think he'll be rejoining unless something happens to Mangini (physical injury or something) tbh.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

p0ke said:


> I guess I'm pretty much the only DT fan in the world who doesn't miss Portnoy.



I'm in the same boat, but it's not because I find him annoying, but because I found DT as a whole boring as all hell post SFAM. I mean ToT is good, and I don't have Octivarium as much as I used to, but gooooooood DT between 2000 - 2011 was just SO fucking boring to me. DT kept trying to sound more contemporary and it just didn't fit them IMO.

So for me, it wasn't Portnoy leaving that made me lose interest, it was DT trying to keep up with nu metal and the NWOAHM at the time. Luckily they got back on track with the self titled album and DoT, the only two albums they released after ADTOE


----------



## StevenC

Kevin Moore is the best songwriter that has ever been in that band and it shows that the songwriting has never recovered in 27 years.


----------



## p0ke

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm in the same boat, but it's not because I find him annoying, but because I found DT as a whole boring as all hell post SFAM. I mean ToT is good, and I don't have Octivarium as much as I used to, but gooooooood DT between 2000 - 2011 was just SO fucking boring to me. DT kept trying to sound more contemporary and it just didn't fit them IMO.
> 
> So for me, it wasn't Portnoy leaving that made me lose interest, it was DT trying to keep up with nu metal and the NWOAHM at the time. Luckily they got back on track with the self titled album and DoT, the only two albums they released after ADTOE



Yeah, I didn't really like Octavarium either. In retrospect, it does have some great moments, but the general vibe just doesn't click with me. 
Systematic Chaos on the other hand... I loved that album. I was so hooked on it, whenever I tried to listen to something else I'd just end up going back to it after a song or two. I haven't been that excited for any of the later albums, but DoT got pretty close.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> Kevin Moore is the best songwriter that has ever been in that band and it shows that the songwriting has never recovered in 27 years.



He was an excellent lyricist but Dream Theater did not suffer his loss that badly. A Change of Seasons, Falling into Infinity, Scenes from Memory, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence remain some of the band's greatest albums, all of which were made without Kevin Moore. 

In addition to many other confounding factors, I'm surprised no one ever seems to talk about how the post-1990s changes in the music industry affected Dream Theater's sound. At their peak, Dream Theater were channeling bands like Rush and Radiohead. That's how you get records like Falling into Infinity. By the mid-2000s, metal and popular music have changed a lot. About a year after that, Dream Theater are signed to Roadrunner Records alongside bands like Slipknot. In addition to being 9 albums deep into their career, it isn't surprising to see why certain elements of Dream Theater's music changed. 

It definitely isn't just Dream Theater, either. It is so much easier to name "great" albums from the 1990s and early 2000s vs. the mid-2000s onward. Even with 10+ years of hindsight afforded by living in 2021/2022.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> He was an excellent lyricist but Dream Theater did not suffer his loss that badly. A Change of Seasons, Falling into Infinity, Scenes from Memory, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence remain some of the band's greatest albums, all of which were made without Kevin Moore.
> 
> In addition to many other confounding factors, I'm surprised no one ever seems to talk about how the post-1990s changes in the music industry affected Dream Theater's sound. At their peak, Dream Theater were channeling bands like Rush and Radiohead. That's how you get records like Falling into Infinity. By the mid-2000s, metal and popular music have changed a lot. About a year after that, Dream Theater are signed to Roadrunner Records alongside bands like Slipknot. In addition to being 9 albums deep into their career, it isn't surprising to see why certain elements of Dream Theater's music changed.
> 
> It definitely isn't just Dream Theater, either. It is so much easier to name "great" albums from the 1990s and early 2000s vs. the mid-2000s onward. Even with 10+ years of hindsight afforded by living in 2021/2022.


Both A Change of Seasons and Scenes from a Memory started being written when Kevin was in the band. Dream Theater average around 1 or 2 good songs per album after Scenes.

Also, there are tons of great albums post mid-2000s. I'd say I easily prefer that era of music to the 90s/early-00s outside of 7 albums from Dream Theater and King Crimson.


----------



## Marked Man

gunshow86de said:


> I mean...



Not exactly Led Zepplin is it? I remember thinking WTH when I first saw the Seasons album cover......and I had to double check to see if that Dramatic Turn cover was real, I don't remember it being that dorky.....geez


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> Both A Change of Seasons and Scenes from a Memory started being written when Kevin was in the band. Dream Theater average around 1 or 2 good songs per album after Scenes.
> 
> Also, there are tons of great albums post mid-2000s. I'd say I easily prefer that era of music to the 90s/early-00s outside of 7 albums from Dream Theater and King Crimson.



And yet Kevin Moore is not credited as a songwriter on either of those albums, as you'd expect he'd be if any major contributions to the song structures remained. For better or worse, even early-era Dream Theater was driven heavily by Petrucci and Portnoy. Of all the band members, only they had co-producer credits from SFAM onward. And considering the main reason for Moore's departure was wanting to do his own thing (with Labrie going so far as to say Moore was "absent" musically and mentally for most of Awake), I think it is safe to say Moore was more a passenger than a driver during his DT days. In fact, history would repeat itself less than a decade later when Portnoy and Moore would collaborate on OSI, but this time it was Portnoy bowing out over songwriting disagreements. Regardless, Moore's mere presence in the band lineup in earlier years when material was being roughed out does not earn him credit for fully fleshed-out music DT produced half a decade after he left.

For that matter, I don't think it is accurate to say SFAM dates to the Moore period, even though A Change of Seasons did (since it was largely written around the same time as Images and Words). Even in that case, though, the fact Portnoy helmed the production of that song and EP is self-evident, given that it deals with intimate details of his life.

Don't get me wrong, Moore was an important member in many ways. But his impacts were no where near significant enough to cause DT's decline. Not that I mean to imply there has been a decline severe enough to frame in those terms. 

Also, do you really feel Six Degrees only has two good songs? Or Octavarium for that matter? Maybe it isn't your cup of tea, but I feel most DT fans would take issue with that statement. Six Degrees in particular is such a fantastic album throughout.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> And yet Kevin Moore is not credited as a songwriter on either of those albums, as you'd expect he'd be if any major contributions to the song structures remained. For better or worse, even early-era Dream Theater was driven heavily by Petrucci and Portnoy. Of all the band members, only they had co-producer credits from SFAM onward. And considering the main reason for Moore's departure was wanting to do his own thing (with Labrie going so far as to say Moore was "absent" musically and mentally for most of Awake), I think it is safe to say Moore was more a passenger than a driver during his DT days. In fact, history would repeat itself less than a decade later when Portnoy and Moore would collaborate on OSI, but this time it was Portnoy bowing out over songwriting disagreements. Regardless, Moore's mere presence in the band lineup in earlier years when material was being roughed out does not earn him credit for fully fleshed-out music DT produced half a decade after he left.
> 
> For that matter, I don't think it is accurate to say SFAM dates to the Moore period, even though A Change of Seasons did (since it was largely written around the same time as Images and Words). Even in that case, though, the fact Portnoy helmed the production of that song and EP is self-evident, given that it deals with intimate details of his life.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Moore was an important member in many ways. But his impacts were no where near significant enough to cause DT's decline. Not that I mean to imply there has been a decline severe enough to frame in those terms.
> 
> Also, do you really feel Six Degrees only has two good songs? Or Octavarium for that matter? Maybe it isn't your cup of tea, but I feel most DT fans would take issue with that statement. Six Degrees in particular is such a fantastic album throughout.


Kevin wrote the two best songs on Awake, what are you on about?


----------



## ArtDecade

StevenC said:


> Kevin wrote the two best songs on Awake, what are you on about?



I had to go back and see what tracks he wrote on Awake - and *6:00* and *Space Dye Vest* are the best tunes on that album by a mile. I haven't listened to much Dream Theater over the last 15 years, but both those songs came rushing back when I saw the titles. None of the others are even in the old memory bank.


----------



## StevenC

ArtDecade said:


> I had to go back and see what tracks he wrote on Awake - and *6:00* and *Space Dye Vest* are the best tunes on that album by a mile. I haven't listened to much Dream Theater over the last 15 years, but both those songs came rushing back when I saw the titles. None of the others are even in the old memory bank.


Also Lie


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> Kevin wrote the two best songs on Awake, what are you on about?



Maybe we could start with the fact that Kevin Moore's songwriting remit did not extent to writing the parts of other band members? Let alone for albums produced 5 years after he'd left the band?


----------



## Ralyks

StevenC said:


> Kevin wrote the two best songs on Awake, what are you on about?



He wrote Scarred?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Ralyks said:


> He wrote Scarred?



Yeah, I was going to say  Space Dye Vest is a great song but Scarred and Voices are much superior in my opinion (and maybe my favorite two off the album). 

In regards to Moore's musical impact on Awake, Space Dye Vest is the only song which he brought in "complete". And that makes sense because it is a piano/vocal duet. He didn't "write" any of the other songs on the album, although he was the sole lyrical contributor to 6:00, Lie and Space Dye Vest (a misunderstanding which I assume to be the reason for Steve crediting Moore those songs in their entirety). 

In fact, Portnoy said the band probably would not have included Space Dye Vest on the album had Moore expressed his desire to quit Dream Theater earlier, since it was so different from the others and "100% Moore's song." Implicitly, we can understand everything else on the album was more a group effort. 

Anyway, I feel it is a bit absurd to say there's only two good songs on any DT album and that Moore's departure is the reason for a bunch of changes to the band's sound. The timeline does not line up with that theory, for starters. Worse, I think it greatly overestimates Kevin Moore's impact on the band's songwriting. As great a member as he was and as great a lyricist as he was, it's a massive stretch to imply he was the soul of the band and it was a downward slide ever since he left.


----------



## Musiscience

Can’t quite put my finger on it, but something really cracks me up about 5 grown ass men standing all serious around a spider.


----------



## Ralyks

Sermo Lupi said:


> Anyway, I feel it is a bit absurd to say there's only two good songs on any DT album and that Moore's departure is the reason for a bunch of changes to the band's sound. The timeline does not line up with that theory, for starters. Worse, I think it greatly overestimates Kevin Moore's impact on the band's songwriting. As great a member as he was and as great a lyricist as he was, it's a massive stretch to imply he was the soul of the band and it was a downward slide ever since he left.



While I do think Moore leaving did change things a bit, and he's probably my favorite keyboardist in the Metal genre, I would say his leaving was only one of a few things important. I would also argue John Myung basically having no lyrical contributions for a long stretch hurt. His and Moores lyrics were always the best/least cheesy.

I also want to say that I consider Dream Theater my second favorite band and Petrucci is the kind of guitarist I've aspire to be overall, I'm also not ignoring that fact there have been some major ups and downs over the last 20 years. Or, I guess you can say when Jordan Rudess joined the band. Last album I can honestly say I enjoyed all the way through was Train of Thought.


----------



## The Mirror

Ralyks said:


> [...] Moores lyrics were always the best/least cheesy.



I'd say that's not really the case. 

In fact Space-Dye Vest is a pure kitsch-fest (Love is an act of blood and I'm bleeding a pool in the shape of a heart). 

The difference is that Moore's lyrics, while being cheesy as hell when you just read them, feel melancholic and earnestly personal when put in the song, which is quite a difference to a 9 minute riff compilation with a 4 minute instrumental wanking intermission about some pharao who turns into a monster at night and kills his people or some shit like that.

And don't get me started on Petrucci's attempt at being a young-adult fiction writer at almost age 50.


----------



## Ralyks

Teaser for the first single


----------



## ArtDecade

Ralyks said:


> Teaser for the first single




Sounds cool, but you know it will get ruined when James LeCheese opens his mouth.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## ArtDecade

Evan89 said:


>




First! LOL.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

The Mirror said:


> I'd say that's not really the case.
> 
> In fact Space-Dye Vest is a pure kitsch-fest (Love is an act of blood and I'm bleeding a pool in the shape of a heart).
> 
> The difference is that Moore's lyrics, while being cheesy as hell when you just read them, feel melancholic and earnestly personal when put in the song, which is quite a difference to a 9 minute riff compilation with a 4 minute instrumental wanking intermission about some pharao who turns into a monster at night and kills his people or some shit like that.
> 
> And don't get me started on Petrucci's attempt at being a young-adult fiction writer at almost age 50.



When you put it that way... 

I'm not really sure what sparked Petrucci's trip down fantasy-lyric lane. It started with Systematic Chaos, so he was what, 40 years old? What makes it a bit more odd is a lot of the lyrics written by his younger self were excellent and dealt with heavy, real-world themes. 

Petrucci's early lyricism is underrated in my opinion. On Images and Words as well as Awake, he wrote: Another Day, Metropolis Part I, Under a Glass Moon, Innocence Faded, Voices, the Silent Man, Scarred (and co-wrote Caught in a Web). 

On Falling into Infinity it was Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years, Lines in the Sand and Take Away my Pain (and he co-wrote You Not Me). On Metropolis Part II it was Beyond This Life, Through Her Eyes, and The Spirit Carries on (as well as the Regression and Through my Words segues). Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was even better with Misunderstood, the Great Debate, About to Crash (and its reprise later on the album), Solitary Shell, and Losing Time. 

Really, a lot of Dream Theater's best songs have Petrucci's lyrics in them. Which is why I find it a bit odd he hit 40 and wanted to get into world-building. Did he start playing D&D with his kids?


----------



## Xaios

Okay, here's my hot take...

Space Dye Vest is overrated.


----------



## ArtDecade

Xaios said:


> Okay, here's my hot take...
> 
> Space Dye Vest is overrated.



Its a good song on a so-so album - that might make it stand out more than it normally would. Maybe it gets lost on a better album.


----------



## Xaios

ArtDecade said:


> Its a good song on a so-so album - that might make it stand out more than it normally would. Maybe it gets lost on a better album.


Honestly, it's probably my least favorite songs on Awake. If I hit shuffle on my library, it's pretty much the only song on that album where I'll immediately just reflexively hit "Next".


----------



## Sermo Lupi

ArtDecade said:


> Its a good song on a so-so album - that might make it stand out more than it normally would. Maybe it gets lost on a better album.



Calling Awake a "so-so album" is probably the bigger hot take, haha. 

Space Dye Vest is a nice song. It caps off that somber feel that is woven through other parts of the album. I just think it is easily overshadowed by too many other excellent songs on Awake.


----------



## ArtDecade

Sermo Lupi said:


> Calling Awake a "so-so album" is probably the bigger hot take, haha.



Is it though? I remember totally digging *Images And Words* when it came out, but I never thought of* Awake* lived up to that album. I dunno Dream Theater totally lost me soon after, but they have been pushing out albums ever since so I don't think my opinion matters much to their success. LOL.


----------



## bostjan

I know my taste is unusual, but _Awake_ was one of my all time favourite albums.

IMO, none of DT's lyrics are what I would call top tier songwriting. "A Change of Seasons" is personally my favourite lyrically (it speaks to me on an emotional level, is fairly philosophical, and the worst bits of the lyrics are more mildly awkward than trite or cringey), which was written by Portnoy, but Portnoy is also responsible for a lot of the cheesiest lines of lyrics during his tenure with the band. What's most odd to me, though, is that, since his departure, those sorts of cheesiest lyrical lines have not ceased. 

I'd say, though, that, in general, if you are listening to DT solely for lyrical content, you should expect to be underwhelmed. The band is fantastic at writing really cool musical arrangements, blistering solos, tight instrumental breakdowns, nifty transitions from song to song, etc., but no lyrics that I've ever heard and had to look up an analysis to see what kind of deep messages were tucked away in layers of clever wordsmithing.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

ArtDecade said:


> Is it though? I remember totally digging *Images And Words* when it came out, but I never thought of* Awake* lived up to that album. I dunno Dream Theater totally lost me soon after, but they have been pushing out albums ever since so I don't think my opinion matters much to their success. LOL.



Awake tends to be put in the same echelon as Images and Words. I might even prefer Awake to Images and Words, personally, but then I waffle over that statement every time I make it. I think I have more of a personal connection to Awake for sure. 

In somewhat more objective terms, Dream Theater has only four albums with a review score of 4+ on ProgArchives.com (which indicates an "essential" album for any prog collection on that website--4+ scores are somewhat difficult to achieve). In descending order, Dream Theater's best albums are ranked Scenes from a Memory (4.30), Images and Words (4.29), Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (4.14), and Awake (4.13). 

But as much respect as I have for Prog Archives, take those scores with a grain of salt. I find I often disagree with that userbase's review scores...I don't know how Falling Into Infinity has a score of only 3.33, for example (which is roughly the same as Systematic Chaos), and I also feel they tend to underrate non-Dream Theater progressive metal artists.


----------



## bostjan

_Awake_ was the album where Dream Theater pretty much defined what they were going to sound like from there on out.

You look back at songs like "Another Day," "Surrounded," or even "Wait for Sleep," and while they do have some more laid-back songs, they are less pensive and more dark and moody. They also don't really have any recent songs that sound anything like "Take the Time" or "Learning to Live."

If you look back at the track listing for _Images and Words_, the only songs that they call back to, stylistically, are "Pull Me Under" and "Metropolis," their two heaviest (most metal-influenced) off the album. Whereas, _Awake_ introduced the multi-song concept, seven string guitars, heavily distorted keyboard tones, darker moods, and more groove-based heavy riffs that are more staples of their sound.


----------



## StevenC

Awake
Images & Words
Scenes From a Memory
Falling into Infinity
A Change of Seasons
who cares


----------



## Xaios

StevenC said:


> 6. who cares


That's a weird way of spelling "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence".

Also, I liked Black Clouds & Silver Linings. "The Count of Tuscany" might be cheese, but by God, it is the best kind of cheese, and "The Best of Times" is incredibly moving. Portnoy's constipated shout-growls definitely put a ceiling on the album, though.


----------



## p0ke

Xaios said:


> I liked Black Clouds & Silver Linings. "The Count of Tuscany" might be cheese, but by God, it is the best kind of cheese, and "The Best of Times" is incredibly moving. Portnoy's constipated shout-growls definitely put a ceiling on the album, though.



I like that album too. I try to just ignore the lyrics though


----------



## iamaom

I liked Train of Thought, in fact it's one of my favorites next to Images and Words.


----------



## AMOS

A Dramatic Turn Of Events is one of my favorites.


----------



## wankerness

I think the problem with Dream Theater is mainly just our attention spans and our age. I bet people who first heard them with the last few albums would often rank those highly, while those of us who started listening to them in the 90s seem to mostly have a hard time getting excited about any of their new material. At best, with their albums since Train of Thought, I go "hey this is pretty good," listen to it maybe 4 times, and then never listen to it again. The only ones I'd actually say are definitively inferior to their older stuff are Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events, but the latter's not THAT much worse. I just got Dream Theatered out many years ago and now am mostly in that typical thing that happens after about age 28 where you start gravitating towards the familiar and just listening to whatever you liked when you first really got into music. I mean, I listen to some new music, but it's mostly stuff that actually sounds different/fresh.


----------



## Metropolis

ArtDecade said:


> Sounds cool, but you know it will get ruined when James LeCheese opens his mouth.



Still way better whoever the first vocalist was before him.


----------



## deathbyguitar

iamaom said:


> I liked Train of Thought, in fact it's one of my favorites next to Images and Words.


I logged in for the first time in like 4 1/2 years just to agree with you.

ToT is very easily my favorite album of theirs. I love the guitar sounds, the production, everything. Probably has something to do with me discovering Petrucci through an old Ernie Ball video where he was demoing some strings while playing Honor Thy Father (which has been my favorite DT song since I discovered them). It was also my first foray into progressive music.


----------



## ArtDecade

Metropolis said:


> Still way better whoever the first vocalist was before him.



Just because I couldn't remember either, I looked it up - Charlie Dominici. According to Wikipedia, me made a three album concept series about a a terrorist in a sleeper cell that falls in love with the country. Yup, I can totally see how that dude was in Dream Theater.


----------



## bostjan

Question, do people love _Images and Words_ more than other DT because of the heavily sampled snare or in spite of it? 

Almost every poll-based list I've seen has that album either as #1 or #2.



ArtDecade said:


> Just because I couldn't remember either, I looked it up - Charlie Dominici. According to Wikipedia, me made a three album concept series about a a terrorist in a sleeper cell that falls in love with the country. Yup, I can totally see how that dude was in Dream Theater.


Steve Stone was their vocalist in between Charlie and James. Rumour was that, since Charlie was "boring" on stage, the guys told Steve to watch some videos of Iron Maiden and be more like Bruce Dickinson, and he took the advice way too literally. He played one show with them, doing an over-the-top Dickinson impersonation for half of the show, and was immediately fired from the band after the show.

Here's the demo version of Metropolis with Steve on vocals:

Can't say I'm a fan of his delivery nor his phrasing. Sounds like he's trying really hard to do a Charlie Dominici impersonation.


----------



## Avedas

Ralyks said:


> Teaser for the first single



That's sounding great.

Awake was awesome. The Mirror is one of their best tracks ever.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ralyks said:


> Teaser for the first single




I really wanna know what happened before DoT that made DT great again. Like I know it's too early to call this a home run, but this sounds very promising. Like, anything Petrucci has been involved in since 2019 has been stellar. DoT, his solo album, LTE3...


----------



## ArtDecade

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I really wanna know what happened before DoT that made DT great again. Like I know it's too early to call this a home run, but this sounds very promising. Like, anything Petrucci has been involved in since 2019 has been stellar. DoT, his solo album, LTE3...



Really? How did you not know....? Well, he switched to a different brand of creatine as part of his pre-workout and he switched his leg and back days around.


----------



## StevenC

bostjan said:


> Question, do people love _Images and Words_ more than other DT because of the heavily sampled snare or in spite of it?
> 
> Almost every poll-based list I've seen has that album either as #1 or #2.
> 
> 
> Steve Stone was their vocalist in between Charlie and James. Rumour was that, since Charlie was "boring" on stage, the guys told Steve to watch some videos of Iron Maiden and be more like Bruce Dickinson, and he took the advice way too literally. He played one show with them, doing an over-the-top Dickinson impersonation for half of the show, and was immediately fired from the band after the show.
> 
> Here's the demo version of Metropolis with Steve on vocals:
> 
> Can't say I'm a fan of his delivery nor his phrasing. Sounds like he's trying really hard to do a Charlie Dominici impersonation.



I'm an unabashed snare sample lover as far as I&W goes. With headphones it's like Portnoy is drumming right on my forehead.

Also that scream at the start of Metropolis was awesome and should have made it to the final record. Pre-sushi Labrie would have slayed that.


----------



## AMOS

Metropolis said:


> Still way better whoever the first vocalist was before him.


Domenici?


----------



## p0ke

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Like, anything Petrucci has been involved in since 2019 has been stellar. DoT, his solo album, LTE3...



Yeah, Petrucci has definitely been on a roll recently. Even his playing seems to have improved, which is insane given how great he always was.


wankerness said:


> At best, with their albums since Train of Thought, I go "hey this is pretty good," listen to it maybe 4 times, and then never listen to it again. The only ones I'd actually say are definitively inferior to their older stuff are Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events, but the latter's not THAT much worse.



Interesting that you'd say that! It's pretty much exactly what I was about to write, but the other way around  I never really got into their older material, and while yeah, it's cool, I do exactly what you mentioned: listen to it a few times and then completely forget about it. Train of Thought is also kind of my "boundary" between old and new, because that was their most recent album when I started listening to them. Six Degrees... also kinda goes into the "new" category though.
And I also agree that the two albums you mentioned are the inferior ones (even though both definitely have their moments).

I'm "a little bit" late to the party: I finally bought DoT the other day  The reason being that I noticed that the local record store had exactly one copy of the limited edition digipak left for 10€


----------



## AMOS

p0ke said:


> Yeah, Petrucci has definitely been on a roll recently. Even his playing seems to have improved, which is insane given how great he always was.



Terminal Velocity is outstanding


----------



## Guitarmiester

The latest teaser sounds promising. I really haven't cared for anything they've done after Octavarium. They've finally got my attention again.


----------



## StevenC

Xaios said:


> That's a weird way of spelling "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence".


So I listened to this album last night and it's really bad. Like the whole second disc is abysmal and everything after Glass Prison on the first disc sounds like bad rehashes of FII and Scenes.


----------



## bostjan

StevenC said:


> So I listened to this album last night and it's really bad. Like the whole second disc is abysmal and everything after Glass Prison on the first disc sounds like bad rehashes of FII and Scenes.


I own it, and even went through a phase, shortly after it came out, when I listened to the first disc basically all of the time. That said, the more time passes, the less fond of any of it I am. Also, the second disc- I've listened to it maybe twice ever.
I think the issue I've come to have with it is that it comes off more as a tribute album to my ears. The album contains a pretty decent Radiohead song and a not-half-bad Tool song, but no covers, if you catch my drift.


----------



## StevenC

bostjan said:


> I own it, and even went through a phase, shortly after it came out, when I listened to the first disc basically all of the time. That said, the more time passes, the less fond of any of it I am. Also, the second disc- I've listened to it maybe twice ever.
> I think the issue I've come to have with it is that it comes off more as a tribute album to my ears. The album contains a pretty decent Radiohead song and a not-half-bad Tool song, but no covers, if you catch my drift.


Also so many of the drum parts sound like it could be Lars playing, not to mention there is very little actual snare a year and a half before the metal community ripped St Anger for the same thing.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

wankerness said:


> The only ones I'd actually say are definitively inferior to their older stuff are Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events, but the latter's not THAT much worse.



Octavarium is a good album. I think it is a bit like Falling Into Infinity where it sounds different enough from Dream Theater's other material that you're going to love it or hate it. 

This thread is really proving beauty is in the eye of the beholder, though. Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are the highest-rated albums of anything produced since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, according to the Prog Archives scores. So to single those two albums out as "definitively inferior" is very much personal preference, I think. 



ArtDecade said:


> Just because I couldn't remember either, I looked it up - Charlie Dominici. According to Wikipedia, me made a three album concept series about a a terrorist in a sleeper cell that falls in love with the country. Yup, I can totally see how that dude was in Dream Theater.



The concept is actually 10x crazier than that, haha. But that album trilogy is brilliant. I made a comment about it a few pages back.



StevenC said:


> So I listened to this album last night and it's really bad. Like the whole second disc is abysmal and everything after Glass Prison on the first disc sounds like bad rehashes of FII and Scenes.



It's not, and if you feel that way I think it says more about your music preferences than anything else. Which is fine--I'm not saying you have bad taste. But maybe Dream Theater isn't for you if you think everything they've produced since Scenes from a Memory is garbage.


----------



## RevDrucifer

If any of you guys haven’t read Lifting Shadows, I’d strongly recommend it. You can get the paperback on Amazon for pretty cheap and it was definitely more in-depth than I thought. It really covered the Moore period and how it all went down really well. 

He was there but wasn’t really an active participant. He was mostly sitting on a couch reading a book while the other guys were working on music and really didn’t have much interest at all. The most input he had were the lyrics to “6:00” and then “Space Dye Vest”. 

That dude will never get back in DT. Portnoy invited to fly him out from Turkey for the anniversary shows and Moore wanted nothing to do with it. 

Sherinian is my favorite DT keyboardist, hands down. I LOVE the shit Moore did, but Derek’s sounds were fucking awesome. About a year ago he posted on Twitter that he would play on a song for a fee, so I sent him one of my tunes, he put a 30 second sample of what he would do on it. I told him what sounds of his I loved and it was one of the coolest things to hear him using those sounds on one of my songs. I couldn’t afford his fee at the time and had to pass and I’m not sure it would have worked out as I don’t know how much control I’d have over producing him or telling him, “Don’t play here or there”.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Oh and “Voices”, “Scarred”, “Lifting Shadows Off A Dream”, “The Mirror” > “6:00” and “Space Dye Vest” any day of the week for me.


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> Octavarium is a good album. I think it is a bit like Falling Into Infinity where it sounds different enough from Dream Theater's other material that you're going to love it or hate it.
> 
> This thread is really proving beauty is in the eye of the beholder, though. Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are the highest-rated albums of anything produced since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, according to the Prog Archives scores. So to single those two albums out as "definitively inferior" is very much personal preference, I think.



Most user-poll lists have _Train of Thought _ranked higher than either of those, except that crazy list that put _The Astonishing _at #3 (and _Awake _at #5).

It's always a matter of personal preference when you are ranking albums, though.



Sermo Lupi said:


> It's not, and if you feel that way I think it says more about your music preferences than anything else. Which is fine--I'm not saying you have bad taste. But maybe Dream Theater isn't for you if you think everything they've produced since Scenes from a Memory is garbage.



There are three DT albums that are always rated high in polls: _Images and Words, Awake, _and _Scenes from a Memory_. Pretty much every thing else gets some sort of mixed reviews from fans. I don't think it's at all any sort of stretch to say that their current sound is nothing like _Images and Words_, and, well _Scenes from a Memory_ was all based off of a song from _Images and Words_, not to mention that Portnoy, who was one of the two most creative drivers in the band is no longer there. I think it's unfair to tell someone who liked those albums, but nothing since then that they just don't like the band at all.



RevDrucifer said:


> If any of you guys haven’t read Lifting Shadows, I’d strongly recommend it. You can get the paperback on Amazon for pretty cheap and it was definitely more in-depth than I thought. It really covered the Moore period and how it all went down really well.
> 
> He was there but wasn’t really an active participant. He was mostly sitting on a couch reading a book while the other guys were working on music and really didn’t have much interest at all. The most input he had were the lyrics to “6:00” and then “Space Dye Vest”.
> 
> That dude will never get back in DT. Portnoy invited to fly him out from Turkey for the anniversary shows and Moore wanted nothing to do with it.
> 
> Sherinian is my favorite DT keyboardist, hands down. I LOVE the shit Moore did, but Derek’s sounds were fucking awesome. About a year ago he posted on Twitter that he would play on a song for a fee, so I sent him one of my tunes, he put a 30 second sample of what he would do on it. I told him what sounds of his I loved and it was one of the coolest things to hear him using those sounds on one of my songs. I couldn’t afford his fee at the time and had to pass and I’m not sure it would have worked out as I don’t know how much control I’d have over producing him or telling him, “Don’t play here or there”.



That would have been awesome. Have you checked out Planet X or his other releases?

But regarding Kevin Moore... I think you are totally selling his creative input into the band short by basing it off of one album. You know that he was the primary driver for _Pull Me Under_, which was, by far, the band's most well-known song?


----------



## mastapimp

Until Distance over Time, most of the DT material after Train of Thought is completely lost to me and unmemorable. In between that gap, my hands down favorite material they did was the bonus covers disc from Black Clouds. When they cover a song, they do it well and I think they pick songs that also work great with James' voice.


----------



## wankerness

Sermo Lupi said:


> Octavarium is a good album. I think it is a bit like Falling Into Infinity where it sounds different enough from Dream Theater's other material that you're going to love it or hate it.
> 
> This thread is really proving beauty is in the eye of the beholder, though. Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are the highest-rated albums of anything produced since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, according to the Prog Archives scores. So to single those two albums out as "definitively inferior" is very much personal preference, I think.



Yeah, it's definitely personal preference. I just mean those are the only two I listened to and was like "ugh." Especially Octavarium. I still remember the first day we listened to that album, en route to a concert, and everyone in the car had completely lost all hype by the time we got there cause we all thought the album was so depressingly bad. Besides Panic Attack, which is fun, especially the Muse ripoff part.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> It's not, and if you feel that way I think it says more about your music preferences than anything else. Which is fine--I'm not saying you have bad taste. But maybe Dream Theater isn't for you if you think everything they've produced since Scenes from a Memory is garbage.


It's basically popular opinion to dislike Systematic Chaos through The Astonishing. I'm just adding 3 more sucky albums as well. And even at that, I don't dislike BC&SL or ADTOE. But everything else follows the one or two good songs rule.

But if you don't like my opinions on a band who made an album in my top 5, you're really not going to like my opinions on Yes and Genesis.


----------



## ArtDecade

StevenC said:


> But if you don't like my opinions on a band who made an album in my top 5, you're really not going to like my opinions on Yes and Genesis.



More interested in your opinions on Asia and Phil's solo career.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

RevDrucifer said:


> [Moore] was there but wasn’t really an active participant. He was mostly sitting on a couch reading a book while the other guys were working on music and really didn’t have much interest at all. The most input he had were the lyrics to “6:00” and then “Space Dye Vest”.



Cheers for that. This is partly what I was alluding to a few pages back. Aside from the book, there's been subsequent interviews where band members (LaBrie, Petrucci, etc.) mentioned Moore was "absent" during the making of Awake. This shouldn't come as a surprise since many of the lyrics on that album are about Moore's impending departure. Petrucci's lyrics on Innocence Faded refer to their fading friendship, for instance. 



bostjan said:


> Most user-poll lists have _Train of Thought _ranked higher than either of those, except that crazy list that put _The Astonishing _at #3 (and _Awake _at #5). There are three DT albums that are always rated high in polls: _Images and Words, Awake, _and _Scenes from a Memory_. Pretty much every thing else gets some sort of mixed reviews from fans. I don't think it's at all any sort of stretch to say that their current sound is nothing like _Images and Words_, and, well _Scenes from a Memory_ was all based off of a song from _Images and Words_, not to mention that Portnoy, who was one of the two most creative drivers in the band is no longer there. I think it's unfair to tell someone who liked those albums, but nothing since then that they just don't like the band at all.



Which user polls specifically? How many people were polled, and how was the data acquired? 

The reason why I've referenced Prog Archives a few times now is that the community there isn't just DT fans and all the reviews on that website are heavily vetted. They're the closest thing to a central authority on progressive music on the Internet (and were endorsed as being exactly that by Mike Portnoy at one point). To be a contributor, you need to review at least 30 albums across multiple genres, including bands not listed in the top-100 artists. Most importantly, when review scores are tabulated to form the starred album rankings, reviews by vetted contributors that are over 100 words in length are given a weight of 10 to 1. This makes an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Seeing as the review data assembled by Prog Archives is of very high quality, I feel safe making the statement that Dream Theater has at least four "essential" albums that define their music: Images and Words, Awake, Scenes from a Memory, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. In fact, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence barely edges out Awake on Prog Archive's rankings (4.14 vs. 4.13). 

Objectively (as much as we can be), anyone calling that album garbage is simply offering an opinion that substantially differs from the norm. And in the same way you can be a fan of different eras of Pink Floyd but not others, it is not unfair whatsoever to suggest a fan who calls the band's third-best album of all time "abysmal" might not like the music that defines the band's mid-career. 

Also, we're not talking about the post-Portnoy albums. SFAM was used as the cutoff. So we're also talking about Six Degrees, Train of Thought, Octavarium, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds and Silver Linings.


----------



## wankerness

Sermo Lupi said:


> Which user polls specifically? How many people were polled, and how was the data acquired?
> 
> The reason why I've referenced Prog Archives a few times now is that the community there isn't just DT fans and all the reviews on that website are heavily vetted. They're the closest thing to a central authority on progressive music on the Internet (and were endorsed as being exactly that by Mike Portnoy at one point). To be a contributor, you need to review at least 30 albums across multiple genres, including bands not listed in the top-100 artists. Most importantly, when review scores are tabulated to form the starred album rankings, reviews by vetted contributors that are over 100 words in length are given a weight of 10 to 1. This makes an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> Seeing as the review data assembled by Prog Archives is of very high quality, I feel safe making the statement that Dream Theater has at least four "essential" albums that define their music: Images and Words, Awake, Scenes from a Memory, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. In fact, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence barely edges out Awake on Prog Archive's rankings (4.14 vs. 4.13).
> 
> Objectively (as much as we can be), anyone calling that album garbage is simply offering an opinion that substantially differs from the norm. And in the same way you can be a fan of different eras of Pink Floyd but not others, it is not unfair whatsoever to suggest a fan who calls the band's third-best album of all time "abysmal" might not like the music that defines the band's mid-career.
> 
> Also, we're not talking about the post-Portnoy albums. SFAM was used as the cutoff. So we're also talking about Six Degrees, Train of Thought, Octavarium, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds and Silver Linings.



The thing with ProgArchives is that it's its own kind of echo chamber. While generally forums like this full of aging (by which I mean well into their 30s or higher) prog/metalheads are going to be full of people that think Dream Theater peaked in the 90s, a site directed at people that are just progheads and think bands like Spock's Beard or The Flower Kings or whatever are anything other than goofy tripe are going to have a different opinion, but not one that's necessarily any more "objective." As far as I can tell from a quick look, those aggregate ratings are based purely on people that took the time to write out a review on a site called progarchives. Which is obviously going to be pretty self-selecting!

Not to mention there's more likelihood of people that are lifetime fanboys to want to inflate scores of their favorite stuff via positive reviews and less likelihood of people feeling like writing out a review of something that bores them, etc. I mean, you still also get the "review bombers" that have to try and pull down the score of something that ticks them off, but I think in general specialized sites like that are going to be pretty self-selecting of having a fair number of overly positive reviews for every new release that comes out that steadily trends down over time. A bad example of this, but still an illustration, is the fact that the most recent DT album is currently 5/5 on there, cause only one person has written about it yet, and obviously they're hyped cause it's new and exciting.

I'd guess older albums from before the site was established probably tend to be weighted slightly more negative than newer releases since the people writing them have had a lot of time to fully digest the album, as opposed to they were excited about their first listen and quickly hammered out a review and they didn't end up listening to it again (that's what I would have done, if I wrote reviews on that site). Or vice-versa, with the occasional albums that everyone freaks out about when they come out and then a few years later popular opinion seems to think "hey, that was actually pretty good" (I can't think of any prog examples off the top of my head, but I think some of Morbid Angel's post-G albums qualify).


----------



## bostjan

_Live Scenes from New York_ has a 4.55 on Prog Archives. _Dream Theater Live_ (bootleg) has a 4.67 rating there. Does that make those their best albums?!


----------



## wankerness

Hey, a case could be made for Live Scenes from New York. It has the entirety of one of their most popular albums, and then has several of their best songs (Metropolis 1, A Change of Seasons, Learning to Live being the standouts, but also Erotomania, Voices, The Mirror, Acid Rain) and the sound/performances are mostly excellent throughout. It's vastly better than Once in a Livetime when it comes to quality of recording. Never really listened to any of their later live stuff.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

wankerness said:


> The thing with ProgArchives is that it's its own kind of echo chamber. While generally forums like this full of aging (by which I mean well into their 30s or higher) prog/metalheads are going to be full of people that think Dream Theater peaked in the 90s



I've already said any website has a bias, yet that doesn't invalidate attempts to neutralise that bias by screening for well-reasoned, high-quality submissions. Also, your hypothesis that their community thinks DT peaked in the 90s is disproven by the fact that DT's lowest-rated album on that website is their first one, When Dream and Day Unite. More shockingly, Falling Into Infinity has a slightly lower score than the Astonishing!

I disagree with those scores, personally, but that's neither here nor there. It's also very important you know what the scores represent (more on that in my reply to Bostjan below).



wankerness said:


> Not to mention there's more likelihood of people that are lifetime fanboys to want to inflate scores of their favorite stuff via positive reviews and less likelihood of people feeling like writing out a review of something that bores them, etc. I mean, you still also get the "review bombers" that have to try and pull down the score of something that ticks them off, but I think in general specialized sites like that are going to be pretty self-selecting of having a fair number of overly positive reviews for every new release that comes out that steadily trends down over time.



As I've said, the reviewer criteria precludes this. You aren't going to write 30 album reviews for bands in multiple prog genres just to boost DT's scores. By contrast, favoring reviews by vetted contributors helps to combat the review-bombing (or boosting) that goes on on other sites. 



wankerness said:


> I'd guess older albums from before the site was established probably tend to be weighted slightly more negative than newer releases since the people writing them have had a lot of time to fully digest the album, as opposed to they were excited about their first listen and quickly hammered out a review and they didn't end up listening to it again (that's what I would have done, if I wrote reviews on that site).



That's supposition, and I think you already admitted you aren't familiar with the website? I'm not a reviewer there but I've frequented the website since 2005 and have read hundreds of reviews over the years. The quality of the preferred contributors is generally quite high. Even in cases where I disagree with a review, it is usually well-reasoned so you can see how they arrived at a decision. In my experience, I don't think older albums are more harshly reviewed than newer ones. Nor vice versa. Looking at the scores for DT's albums, that's pretty clear. 



bostjan said:


> _Live Scenes from New York_ has a 4.55 on Prog Archives. _Dream Theater Live_ (bootleg) has a 4.67 rating there. Does that make those their best albums?!



It's important to understand what those scores mean. A 3 = "good, but not essential" while 4 = "excellent addition to any prog music collection". 5 = masterpiece, essential. The closer an album is to 3, the less important it is to own. It may still be a "good" album. Meanwhile, anything rated 4+ is essentially a catalogue-defining album for a band. 

So IMO it is not meaningful to say a 4.67 is substantially more important than a 4.55. They're both considered must-own live albums from DT. Those scores are also unambiguously high...it's not like debating a 3.7 vs. a 4.1. For context, owning those two releases as part of your _live albums _collection (an important distinction!) is more "essential" than owning SFAM (rated 4.30) in your regular album collection. Yet even a 4.3 is absurdly high. 

In any case, now that we've laid that out, it is clear that thousands of Prog Archives' reviewers have agreed upon a consensus that Images and Words, Awake, Scenes from a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence "define" Dream Theater's career more than any other album. It's a finding that is a lot more meaningful than a Facebook poll, etc., and does strongly indicate that Six Degrees is as essential as DT's other tentpole albums.


----------



## StevenC

Yeah, but have you gone back and listened to FII, Scenes and 6DoiT? That album contains all of one new song and everything else is just rehashes of those two albums and a couple of covers of like Solsbury Hill and stuff.

Like, you really should judge "essential Dream Theater" with your ears, not what randoms on the internet say.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> Yeah, but have you gone back and listened to FII, Scenes and 6DoiT? That album contains all of one new song and everything else is just rehashes of those two albums and a couple of covers of like Solsbury Hill and stuff.
> 
> Like, you really should judge "essential Dream Theater" with your ears, not what randoms on the internet say.



On the contrary, that's your opinion and one that is not an accurate characterisation of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence from a standard point of view. I've already said I disagreed with you personally. For your own benefit, I quantified how your opinion is not conventional. Six Degrees isn't just not "abysmal", it is considered one of the four pillars of Dream Theater's career. 

I already know my own feelings about DT's catalogue. I've formed those opinions by listening to the band's music for 19 years. So I have to turn your accusation of ignorance back at you. What makes your opinion superior to the thoroughly vetted reviews of thousands of prog fans, going back 20 years? 

I'd also encourage you not to accuse others of being parrots. It is just as easy for me to claim you're misinformed because you so readily brush aside evidence contrary to your feelings as things "randoms on the Internet say". If you really feel that way, why even post in here?


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> On the contrary, that's your opinion and one that is not an accurate characterisation of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence from a standard point of view. I've already said I disagreed with you personally. For your own benefit, I quantified how your opinion is not conventional. Six Degrees isn't just not "abysmal", it is considered one of the four pillars of Dream Theater's career.
> 
> I already know my own feelings about DT's catalogue. I've formed those opinions by listening to the band's music for 19 years. So I have to turn your accusation of ignorance back at you. What makes your opinion superior to the thoroughly vetted reviews of thousands of prog fans, going back 20 years?
> 
> I'd also encourage you not to accuse others of being parrots. It is just as easy for me to claim you're misinformed because you so readily brush aside evidence contrary to your feelings as things "randoms on the Internet say". If you really feel that way, why even post in here?


I mean, Solitary Shell is just a worse version of Solsbury Hill.

I'm trying to think if something coincidental happened 19 years ago that might justify your defense of 6DoIT. But you're right, you have been listening to Dream Theater for 4 or 5 years longer than me so I will bow down to your superior understanding of the band.

I admit, with my JPX7 currently plugged into my JP2C, that I do not like this band or any of the members in it. Dream Theater and their music have absolutely nothing to do with me playing 7 strings or posting on this forum.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> I mean, Solitary Shell is just a worse version of Solsbury Hill.
> 
> I'm trying to think if something coincidental happened 19 years ago that might justify your defense of 6DoIT. But you're right, you have been listening to Dream Theater for 4 or 5 years longer than me so I will bow down to your superior understanding of the band.
> 
> I admit, with my JPX7 currently plugged into my JP2C, that I do not like this band or any of the members in it. Dream Theater and their music have absolutely nothing to do with me playing 7 strings or posting on this forum.



You're trying to flex endorsement gear to prove you like the band? On a forum where Petrucci gear is a dime a dozen? 

As I already said, if you don't like the post-Scenes stuff, that's okay. That's your opinion. Yet if you think Six Degrees is "abysmal", or that DT averages two good songs per album post-Scenes, that's _probably _a sign you don't like the band's later material. It certainly runs counter to the conventional logic.

Also, no, I didn't start listening to DT with Six Degrees. I found the band in the build up to Train of Thought and encountered the older material first. But, you know, keep accusing me of bias and trying to undermine the credibility of thousands of user review scores on the most established prog community on the Internet rather than admit you're dogmatically stating your opinions as fact.


----------



## Ralyks

Honestly, on Six Degrees, I only really still listen to The Glass Prison, Solitary Shell, and The Test That Stumped Them All. And maybe The Great Debate.

Oh, and Awake is a desert island, top 10, maybe top 5 record for me. Also my favorite James LaBrie performance. Has a bit of a Mustaine snarl to him on there.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

But that's 4 songs. What are you, some kind of DT superfan? Do you own _two_ JPX7s and _two_ JP2Cs? 

On a serious note, Awake is my favorite LaBrie performance as well. His voice was unreal back then!


----------



## Ralyks

Sermo Lupi said:


> But that's 4 songs. What are you, some kind of DT superfan? Do you own _two_ JPX7s and _two_ JP2Cs?
> 
> On a serious note, Awake is my favorite LaBrie performance as well. His voice was unreal back then!



Even better, those four songs are the length of an album 

This may get me some me some heat, but as much as I like JP EBMMs, I honestly don't feel the need to own one. Dunno, just not for me. I did own a Sterling for a bit, it was aight, I was away I was getting the budget version. I've played some JP10s, great guitars.

Now a Petrucci Ibanez, I'd be all over.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'd own an OG JP6/JP7, and maybe a JP16, but that's it. Never liked the look of the JPX shape (once again except for the 16), and EVEN THOUGH the shieldless majesty grew on me, it never sounded good to me in clips. The guitar seemed tuned to be REALLY bassy.

If some miracle happened and the JPM came back... lawdy.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> You're trying to flex endorsement gear to prove you like the band? On a forum where Petrucci gear is a dime a dozen?
> 
> As I already said, if you don't like the post-Scenes stuff, that's okay. That's your opinion. Yet if you think Six Degrees is "abysmal", or that DT averages two good songs per album post-Scenes, that's _probably _a sign you don't like the band's later material. It certainly runs counter to the conventional logic.
> 
> Also, no, I didn't start listening to DT with Six Degrees. I found the band in the build up to Train of Thought and encountered the older material first. But, you know, keep accusing me of bias and trying to undermine the credibility of thousands of user review scores on the most established prog community on the Internet rather than admit you're dogmatically stating your opinions as fact.


You're trying really hard to gatekeep liking a band. 

That's not what you said though. It's there to go back and read. Good try. Maybe don't attack people for what and how they love things.


----------



## ArtDecade

I'm kinda old and remember when Dream Theater were first coming up. I dug the first few albums but they lost me soon after. That said, some random on the Internet ( @HeHasTheJazzHands ) said that Petrucci has been on fire for the last few years so I am willing to check out the new album. That said, I find the Prog Archives to be a pretentious swamp of prog-hipsters.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> You're trying really hard to gatekeep liking a band.
> 
> That's not what you said though. It's there to go back and read. Good try. Maybe don't attack people for what and how they love things.



This whole time I thought you were being a bit inflammatory for laughs but if you really think this way you are hilarious. Some of your statements over the last 4 pages:

You think Six Degrees is "abysmal", and "a bad rehash" of Falling Into Infinity and Scenes from a Memory.
You think "Dream Theater average around 1 or 2 good songs per album after Scenes."
Your ranking of DT's best albums concludes with "who cares" for all the post-Scenes material.
You confused Kevin Moore's lyric credits with songwriting credits, yet used this as proof the band's songwriting has been in decline for 27 years ever since he left. 
You get defensive when others disagree with your opinion, which you continually state as fact. 
You want to talk about gatekeeping, let's talk about gaslighting  How much clearer can you be that you don't like 90% of the band's newer material? You defined it with numbers. If Dream Theater has been averaging one good song per album since 1999, what other conclusion can be drawn from your statements? 

Don't sit there and play the victim, either. No one is attacking you, and no one is gatekeeping. I've said three times now you're entitled to your opinion. So don't come back at me for making an effort to show you with objective sources that Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is considered one of the bands most celebrated albums by its fans. 

It isn't that you're not a "real Dream Theater fan" if you don't like their newer music. It's that _you've admitted you don't like most of their material since 1999. _


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> This whole time I thought you were being a bit inflammatory for laughs but if you really think this way you are hilarious. Some of your statements over the last 4 pages:
> 
> You think Six Degrees is "abysmal", and "a bad rehash" of Falling Into Infinity and Scenes from a Memory.
> You think "Dream Theater average around 1 or 2 good songs per album after Scenes."
> Your ranking of DT's best albums concludes with "who cares" for all the post-Scenes material.
> You confused Kevin Moore's lyric credits with songwriting credits, yet used this as proof the band's songwriting has been in decline for 27 years ever since he left.
> You get defensive when others disagree with your opinion, which you continually state as fact.
> You want to talk about gatekeeping, let's talk about gaslighting  How much clearer can you be that you don't like 90% of the band's newer material? You defined it with numbers. If Dream Theater has been averaging one good song per album since 1999, what other conclusion can be drawn from your statements?
> 
> Don't sit there and play the victim, either. No one is attacking you, and no one is gatekeeping. I've said three times now you're entitled to your opinion. So don't come back at me for making an effort to show you with objective sources that Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is considered one of the bands most celebrated albums by its fans.
> 
> It isn't that you're not a "real Dream Theater fan" if you don't like their newer music. It's that _you've admitted you don't like most of their material since 1999. _


I'm sorry you think ProgArchives is a better way to judge an album than your own ears.

You came in here writing essays in response to some lighthearted opinions.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> I'm sorry you think ProgArchives is a better way to judge an album than your own ears.
> 
> You came in here writing essays in response to some lighthearted opinions.



Oh look, more gaslighting. 1) you're not sorry, you're being disingenuous; 2) you already know I didn't form my personal opinions from Prog Archives, we've been over this; 3) you've been dogmatic and argumentative, not "light-hearted"; 4) comment length is irrelevant except at showing your lack of patience to read, apparently. 

Don't troll. You're better than this and the thread suffers for it.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> Oh look, more gaslighting. 1) you're not sorry, you're being disingenuous; 2) you already know I didn't form my personal opinions from Prog Archives, we've been over this; 3) you've been dogmatic and argumentative, not "light-hearted"; 4) comment length is irrelevant except at showing your lack of patience to read, apparently.
> 
> Don't troll. You're better than this and the thread suffers for it.


Guy, I was just posting in a thread about a band I like until you started at me.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> Guy, I was just posting in a thread about a band I like until you started at me.



Someone else offering a contrary opinion (and quantifying it) is not "starting at you". If you've nothing else to offer except accusations, I think it is time to move on.


----------



## ArtDecade

There is only one way to settle this. Rugby. Come on you, Ulster!


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> Someone else offering a contrary opinion (and quantifying it) is not "starting at you". If you've nothing else to offer except accusations, I think it is time to move on.


I think that's where the disconnect lies. It's easy enough to state your opinion is contrary and move on, but once you start quantifying why your opinion is better than someone else's opinion, things are just bound to deteriorate.

Choose your own adventure example:

Person 1: "My top DT albums: 1. Awake 2. Images and Words 3. Scenes from a Memory 4. Who cares?"
Person 2: 
A. "That's funny, because I like Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events."
B. "Very interesting, because I tend to prefer Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events."
C. "Ha ha. Ironically, did you know that Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are actually the most beloved albums on progarchive?"
D. "Actually, according to progarchive, Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are their best albums. If you don't like them, you obviously don't like Dream Theater."


----------



## wankerness

Ralyks said:


> Honestly, on Six Degrees, I only really still listen to The Glass Prison, Solitary Shell, and The Test That Stumped Them All. And maybe The Great Debate.
> 
> Oh, and Awake is a desert island, top 10, maybe top 5 record for me. Also my favorite James LaBrie performance. Has a bit of a Mustaine snarl to him on there.



I have some nostalgia for 6 degrees, especially the title track as I played through the whole thing on guitar many many times when it first released and some dude had a really good online tab for it (it was a lot better than the subsequent official tab book), but it definitely has issues. The Overture is laughably bad thanks to the terrible orchestral synth patches, which rear their head again on the "UH OH, HERE COMES DARTH VADER" intro of "War Inside My Head." "The Test That Stumped Them All" is the other primary offender, with its endless repeats. It reminds me of Beyond This Life where it would be a lot better if it was a few minutes shorter (See also: The Glass Prison's middle section). And the lyrics are AWFUL, like some of the most cringey I've ever heard in any genre. It's some combination of how awkward they are and the way they're totally in your face. The worst is 

"She was raised in a small midwestern town
By a charming and eccentric loving father
She was praised as the perfect teenage girl
And everyone thought highly of her" 

Something about the delivery, especially the way the phrases end, sometimes makes me involuntarily groan. Good song, otherwise!


----------



## wankerness

Sermo Lupi said:


> I've already said any website has a bias, yet that doesn't invalidate attempts to neutralise that bias by screening for well-reasoned, high-quality submissions. Also, your hypothesis that their community thinks DT peaked in the 90s is disproven by the fact that DT's lowest-rated album on that website is their first one, When Dream and Day Unite. More shockingly, Falling Into Infinity has a slightly lower score than the Astonishing!



I said this board considers them to have peaked in the 90s, not that site. But, "peaked" just means that their best albums were all in the 90s and that everything's been lesser since, even if it had occasional spikes. As 6DOIT was their first album after the 90s, all that means is that you think their best albums run from Images and Words through SFAM. And WDADU came out in 89, so I dunno how that would disprove the theory of their 90s material being the best. 



Sermo Lupi said:


> As I've said, the reviewer criteria precludes this. You aren't going to write 30 album reviews for bands in multiple prog genres just to boost DT's scores. By contrast, favoring reviews by vetted contributors helps to combat the review-bombing (or boosting) that goes on on other sites.



What? How does their reviewer criteria work? They have to write 30 reviews in multiple prog genres before a single rating of theirs is counted?


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> I think that's where the disconnect lies. It's easy enough to state your opinion is contrary and move on, but once you start quantifying why your opinion is better than someone else's opinion, things are just bound to deteriorate.



I get where you're coming from, but that's not exactly what happened. I very clearly stated Steven's opinion wasn't in bad taste even if his opinion was not conventional (see the top of page 50 for one example). In fact, I didn't even align myself with Prog Archives; see my comment on page 48: "But as much respect as I have for Prog Archives, take those scores with a grain of salt. I find I often disagree with that userbase's review scores." I then gave the example of how one of my favorite albums is Falling Into Infinity (which has a low score), yet my own personal preference for that album is irrelevant to how that album is received by fans at large. And yes, Prog Archives does quantify how DT's albums are perceived at large.

Steven then took issue with the idea Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was one of DT's most important albums since he considered it abysmal. As I said on page 50: 

"if you feel that way I think it says more about your music preferences than anything else. Which is fine--I'm not saying you have bad taste. But maybe Dream Theater isn't for you if you think everything they've produced since Scenes from a Memory is garbage."

That seems to be the comment that outraged him. 



bostjan said:


> C. "Ha ha. Ironically, did you know that Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are actually the most beloved albums on progarchive?"
> D. "Actually, according to progarchive, Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events are their best albums. If you don't like them, you obviously don't like Dream Theater."



C happened. D never did. 

As I've said, you can be a fan of different periods of a bands career and that's completely fine. Yet it isn't "gatekeeping" to point out someone's bias toward a band's early music might be getting in the way of them seeing how one of the band's later albums is considered one of their best. 

Steven doesn't have to agree with that, but to sit there and question the validity of reviews, of entire website userbases, or even of "Internet randoms" as a whole is just absurd. 

I really don't know how else to say it. Steven can shit over Images and Words for all I care. It doesn't mean he isn't a DT fan, it means his opinion is unconventional. And I'll double-down on what I said: calling Six Degrees "abysmal" is unconventional. It's also true that if you admit 90% of a band's material since 1999 isn't good, you're probably not a fan of that band's newer music.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

wankerness said:


> I said this board considers them to have peaked in the 90s, not that site. But, "peaked" just means that their best albums were all in the 90s and that everything's been lesser since



Right, but that's the problem: Six Degrees is as well received as anything DT put out in the 90s. And the dips in the 90s were lower than anything else in the band's career (by popular perception, not my opinion). 

It's neither here nor there, though. I don't really care whether we say DT peaked in the decade marked 1989-1999 or 1992-2002. That part is arbitrary to me. My point is just that you can't discount Six Degrees as an important album just on personal opinion alone--its popular reception shows it was one of the band's most celebrated albums. In any case, you definitely can't discard it on the logic you don't like it and it came out after Scenes therefore it must be bad (which was an argument advanced earlier but not by you). 



wankerness said:


> What? How does their reviewer criteria work? They have to write 30 reviews in multiple prog genres before a single rating of theirs is counted?



Yeah, it's kind of crazy--I went over the review submission process on my reply to Bostjan on page 50. 

I believe registered members can vote without writing a review but their review score will only be given a weight of 1 rather than 10 if they do.

In order to have a written review counted, the reviewer needs to submit 30 reviews of over 100 words to the website, a portion of which have to be written on bands not ranked in the top-100 artists. I believe that latter part is to combat fanaticism and/or review bombing. You can't just squat and argue about DT all day.

Also, Prog Archive's votes are entirely public, so you can see all the individual reviews for every album (both written and non-written). The site admins regularly remove review spam, so brigading and review bombing/boosting is carefully controlled. 

That site is a wealth of data, honestly. Any website's userbase will have a bias, obviously we're no different here. But the controls I've seen at Prog Archives to thwart bias is probably some of the best I've ever seen of any review-focused website.


----------



## profwoot

DT was my favorite band from the time Awake released up to shortly after 6DOIT, with each new album becoming my new favorite up to and including SFAM. I tried listening to some of their recent stuff but it's just so disjointed. With all that talent, why doesn't anyone in the band care about how a song flows? I guess that's what sounds good to them. 

I love when a long song takes me on a journey, but most of their stuff with Rudess especially post-portnoy feels more like being in a pinball machine. On SFAM the abrupt transitions and circus/ragtime stuff worked for me because it seemed intentional and related to the plot of the story, but after that it started feeling less like considered compositional choices and more like haphazard splicing of the same old group masturbation session into every song. 

And why oh why won't Rudess use any decent synth patches? It's just so outdated. Also KJLB has really leaned into his yodely vibrato and at this point it really grates. So yeah I guess I'm not a fan anymore.


----------



## ArtDecade

There is so much to unpack here, so allow me to begin...



Sermo Lupi said:


> I get where you're coming from, but that's not exactly what happened. I very clearly stated Steven's opinion wasn't in bad taste even if his opinion was not conventional (see the top of page 50 for one example). In fact, I didn't even align myself with Prog Archives; see my comment on page 48: "But as much respect as I have for Prog Archives, take those scores with a grain of salt. I find I often disagree with that userbase's review scores." I then gave the example of how one of my favorite albums is Falling Into Infinity (which has a low score), yet my own personal preference for that album is irrelevant to how that album is received by fans at large. And yes, Prog Archives does quantify how DT's albums are perceived at large.
> 
> Steven then took issue with the idea Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was one of DT's most important albums since he considered it abysmal. As I said on page 50:
> 
> "if you feel that way I think it says more about your music preferences than anything else. Which is fine--I'm not saying you have bad taste. But maybe Dream Theater isn't for you if you think everything they've produced since Scenes from a Memory is garbage."
> 
> That seems to be the comment that outraged him.











Sermo Lupi said:


> C happened. D never did.
> 
> As I've said, you can be a fan of different periods of a bands career and that's completely fine. Yet it isn't "gatekeeping" to point out someone's bias toward a band's early music might be getting in the way of them seeing how one of the band's later albums is considered one of their best.
> 
> Steven doesn't have to agree with that, but to sit there and question the validity of reviews, of entire website userbases, or even of "Internet randoms" as a whole is just absurd.










Sermo Lupi said:


> I really don't know how else to say it. Steven can shit over Images and Words for all I care. It doesn't mean he isn't a DT fan, it means his opinion is unconventional. And I'll double-down on what I said: calling Six Degrees "abysmal" is unconventional. It's also true that if you admit 90% of a band's material since 1999 isn't good, you're probably not a fan of that band's newer music.
> 
> Right, but that's the problem: Six Degrees is as well received as anything DT put out in the 90s. And the dips in the 90s were lower than anything else in the band's career (by popular perception, not my opinion).
> 
> It's neither here nor there, though. I don't really care whether we say DT peaked in the decade marked 1989-1999 or 1992-2002. That part is arbitrary to me. My point is just that you can't discount Six Degrees as an important album just on personal opinion alone--its popular reception shows it was one of the band's most celebrated albums. In any case, you definitely can't discard it on the logic you don't like it and it came out after Scenes therefore it must be bad (which was an argument advanced earlier but not by you).










Sermo Lupi said:


> Yeah, it's kind of crazy--I went over the review submission process on my reply to Bostjan on page 50.
> 
> I believe registered members can vote without writing a review but their review score will only be given a weight of 1 rather than 10 if they do.










Sermo Lupi said:


> In order to have a written review counted, the reviewer needs to submit 30 reviews of over 100 words to the website, a portion of which have to be written on bands not ranked in the top-100 artists. I believe that latter part is to combat fanaticism and/or review bombing. You can't just squat and argue about DT all day.
> 
> Also, Prog Archive's votes are entirely public, so you can see all the individual reviews for every album (both written and non-written). The site admins regularly remove review spam, so brigading and review bombing/boosting is carefully controlled.
> 
> That site is a wealth of data, honestly. Any website's userbase will have a bias, obviously we're no different here. But the controls I've seen at Prog Archives to thwart bias is probably some of the best I've ever seen of any review-focused website.



So in conclusion...


----------



## Sermo Lupi

ArtDecade said:


> So in conclusion...



Oh, gif reactions! I really don't need to convince you that something popular in 2002 is still in style.

Now kindly take your own advice.


----------



## ArtDecade

Sermo Lupi said:


> Oh, gif reactions! I really don't don't need to convince you that something popular in 2002 is still in style.
> 
> Now kindly take your own advice.



Oh, man. So confused. Is that a double negative or a typing error? Also, you are the living embodiment of why Dream Theater fans are stereotyped as dorks.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

ArtDecade said:


> Oh, man. So confused. Is that a double negative or a typing error? Also, you are the living embodiment of why Dream Theater fans are stereotyped as dorks.



The typo-sniffer accusing someone else of being a dork? Jesus, are you really that much of a loser or just John Bollinger roleplaying one on the Internet?


----------



## ArtDecade

Sermo Lupi said:


> The typo-sniffer accusing someone else of being a dork? Jesus, are you really that much of a loser or just John Bollinger roleplaying one on the Internet?



At least you stopped writing self-serving dissertations.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

ArtDecade said:


> At least you stopped writing self-serving dissertations.



Did I? Or did the post length decline because we're exchanging insults instead of discussing something of substance? Real improvement to the thread, that.


----------



## Kaura

Every DT album has few hits and multiple misses. Except I&W and Metropolis Pt. 2 where it's the opposite (can't stand Pull Me Under or Home).

/thread


----------



## Sermo Lupi

I've learned from this thread that unless you own like ten JPX guitars and seven JP2C amps, there's no way you can make such a massive statement!


----------



## Wc707

Only in a Dream Theater discussion would people argue so much ‍
I enjoy the band. I like some albums better than others. I think Portnoy took the band in a certain direction, but that doesnt mean Mangini is better or worse, or vice versa. All music evolves, and it should.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> I've learned from this thread that unless you own like ten JPX guitars and seven JP2C amps, there's no way you can make such a massive statement!





Sermo Lupi said:


> But maybe Dream Theater isn't for you if you think everything they've produced since Scenes from a Memory is garbage.


Dream Theater forms a very major part of my identity as a music fan and musician. I was trying to demonstrate that, but you just wanted to yell some more. Sorry I don't like something in exactly the same way as you.


----------



## wankerness

Kaura said:


> Every DT album has few hits and multiple misses. Except I&W and Metropolis Pt. 2 where it's the opposite (can't stand Pull Me Under or Home).
> 
> /thread



Home has some killer riffs, especially the main wah riff that rips off 46&2. I think it suffers from being too long, much like Beyond this Life, but I still think it’s an album highlight. And the radio edit version isn’t better, so maybe it’s ok as long as it is.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> Dream Theater forms a very major part of my identity as a music fan and musician. I was trying to demonstrate that, but you just wanted to yell some more. Sorry I don't like something in exactly the same way as you.



I'm sure it does form a part of your identity. But you really need to stop with the gaslighting: I wasn't yelling at you, I wasn't invalidating your interest in Dream Theater, and I certainly wasn't attacking you by demonstrating that your opinion of Six Degrees being "abysmal" is unconventional. 

If you don't like the music from Six Degrees onward, that's fine. But you're going to get a lot of opposition with statements like that and it didn't help you refused to form an argument from anything aside from your own feelings. 



wankerness said:


> Home has some killer riffs, especially the main wah riff that rips off 46&2. I think it suffers from being too long, much like Beyond this Life, but I still think it’s an album highlight. And the radio edit version isn’t better, so maybe it’s ok as long as it is.



I wonder if Home being a bit long was intentional. It would fit with the song's theme of hedonism. I was never bothered by it aside from the part where things get, ah, "heaving". Not really the song you want on at a streetlight with the windows down, haha.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> I'm sure it does form a part of your identity. But you really need to stop with the gaslighting: I wasn't yelling at you, I wasn't invalidating your interest in Dream Theater, and I certainly wasn't attacking you by demonstrating that your opinion of Six Degrees being "abysmal" is unconventional.
> 
> If you don't like the music from Six Degrees onward, that's fine. But you're going to get a lot of opposition with statements like that and it didn't help you refused to form an argument from anything aside from your own feelings.


So far you're the only one in this thread that has had a problem with what I said and every DT fan I've met in real life hasn't argued either.


----------



## Xaios

Oh my God, just fuck already.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> So far you're the only one in this thread that has had a problem with what I said and every DT fan I've met in real life hasn't argued either.



More anecdotes. It's almost like I went to the trouble of referencing thousands of review scores so we'd both have access to more opinions than what we can count on two hands. 

I haven't told you any of the music you like is shitty, you're the one who's done that. So stop playing the victim and let the thread move on.


----------



## Avedas

Well that song wasn't really what I expected based on the teaser. Basically just rewrote Pale Blue Dot. It has its moments but kinda meh.


----------



## aceshigh92

Sermo Lupi said:


> More anecdotes. It's almost like I went to the trouble of referencing thousands of review scores so we'd both have access to more opinions than what we can count on two hands.
> 
> I haven't told you any of the music you like is shitty, you're the one who's done that. So stop playing the victim and let the thread move on.



Jesus fucking Christ dude, let it go. I have never seen anyone get so bent out of shape over something so inconsequential as a random internet strangers opinion on a 90s progressive metal band. Music is _subjective_. All the dude did was give his _subjective_ opinion before you piled on with your "weLL AcKChYuaLLy" bs. No-one needs to provide evidence or "form an argument" to explain why they don't like something that's purely _subjective_, and no-one else gives a single fuck what the crusty, fart-sniffing, pretentious gatekeeps at "Prog Archives" think about anything.


Back on topic, the songs OK (imo..., pretty par for the course for recent DT from I've heard of it. FWIW I fell of the DT bandwagon after the self-titled (more because my own musical tastes changed than anything else), but I still like to check in to see what they're up to. I think my biggest gripe with them has always been the production, specifically the bass tone. JM is such a beast of a player, but his tone is just so...limp. Give the guy some balls and crank him up in the mix a bit.


----------



## p0ke

Nothing particularly wrong with the new song IMO, but there were just too many parts that felt like I've heard them on a previous album already.

... Oh well, I preordered the album anyway


----------



## Lorcan Ward

New song:
First minute unmistakable Dream Theatre sound
Second minute leads are more reserved than usual Petrucci and feel more like an outro or last verse
Third minute is a bit abrupt and not flowing well
Fourth minute same as the third, sounds like lots of ideas stuck together rather than a consistent idea worked on

The long solo section has lost me. I can't say I'm a fan at all but it probably doesn't help I've lost interest in them the last few albums.


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## sym30l1c

New song is OK, but as someone who started listening to DT in the early '90s, I feel like I have already heard it in a similar shape or form multiple times in the past.


----------



## kamello

Sermo Lupi said:


> I wonder if Home being a bit long was intentional. It would fit with the song's theme of hedonism. I was never bothered by it aside from the part where things get, ah, "heaving". Not really the song you want on at a streetlight with the windows down, haha.



just had the most uncomfortable flashback ever of me listening SfoaM for the first time in 2009, my mom was in another desk behind me answering some emails, when Home came in she was like "ohh that sounds good" and kept doing her business, then came THAT part and she was like "wtf, wait for me to leave the room"


----------



## Sermo Lupi

aceshigh92 said:


> Jesus fucking Christ dude, let it go.



Here's some arithmetic for you: a guy with three posts provides his two cents twelve hours after everyone had moved on. Five reasons why no one cares. As an aside, I've never seen a curse-filled rant deescalate a conversation 



kamello said:


> just had the most uncomfortable flashback ever of me listening SfoaM for the first time in 2009, my mom was in another desk behind me answering some emails, when Home came in she was like "ohh that sounds good" and kept doing her business, then came THAT part and she was like "wtf, wait for me to leave the room"



I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people here share some variation of that memory! I remember putting the album on one time and my mom asking me if I was listening to gospel after she heard the intro from another room. 



Lorcan Ward said:


> New song:
> First minute unmistakable Dream Theatre sound
> Second minute leads are more reserved than usual Petrucci and feel more like an outro or last verse
> Third minute is a bit abrupt and not flowing well
> Fourth minute same as the third, sounds like lots of ideas stuck together rather than a consistent idea worked on
> 
> The long solo section has lost me. I can't say I'm a fan at all but it probably doesn't help I've lost interest in them the last few albums.



I feel I've said the same thing for the last couple albums, which is that the music is good but very much in the vein of A Dramatic Turn of Events, the Self-Titled, and the newer DT sound. We'll see what comes with the rest of the album, yet that seems to be the pattern even if there's kernels of older DT in there. 

I'd be curious to know if the band is composing and recording the album in the same manner as last time. That would explain why some of it sounds the way it does, being broken up into sections, jammed on, reassembled and recorded, etc.


----------



## bostjan

You know those TV shows where series one- they have to save someone, series two- they have to save the city, series three- they have to save the world, series four- they have to save the universe, series five sucks because the writers no longer have a way to one-up the previous adventures and so it's just no longer interesting, but, because the actors on the show are still really good, people still watch, but they just don't really love the new episodes of the show? Maybe the writing was never that great to begin with, but everything else about the show had its charm...

Maybe that's kind of where Dream Theater has been the past 20ish years. We all admit Petrucci is a monster player- all of the musicians in the band have always been fantastic on their own. And _Scenes from a Memory_ was clearly a one-up over _Falling into Infinity_ from a writing perspective. IDK, if they tried something different at this point, it'd be a huge gamble, but @StevenC voices a pretty widespread sentiment that a lot of the newer material just sounds like previous material. This new song, to me, sounds a lot like I've heard them play it before, but I haven't. I don't dislike it, it's just doesn't have much novelty to me.

The discussion a couple pages ago about the lyrics had me going back and looking at their lyrics for a couple gems, and, well, honestly the lyrics were never really that great. I guess they never bothered me too much since I'm not really a lyrics guy, but the moments where DT is trying to be profound with lyrics never really held up. The new song, just listen to the way the lyrics start out with a mild cringe. I can't really explain it, they just aren't top tier and it shows in a you-know-it-when-you-see-it way. I'd say maybe it's just me, but it's not just me.

I still consider myself a fan, not because I have a DT tattoo or because I own DT merch, but because I care about this band. That's why it makes me nervous with this new album coming out in a post-pandemic world with 8 string guitars on it. I really really want to be blown away, but the biggest part of my problem is that my expectations are too high.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## Avedas

Looking at the transcription and actually paying proper attention to the riffs, it does seem a bit uninspired to me. There were much better riffs on LTE3 and the solo album. The solo section even seemed like a watered down version of LTE. I wish the whole song grooved as hard as the first minute did. Once the slow melody came in the song lost me.

I'm still expecting there to be some gems on the album of course though.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

sym30l1c said:


> New song is OK, but as someone who started listening to DT in the early '90s, I feel like I have already heard it in a similar shape or form multiple times in the past.



Same here as being a fan since I&W, but I loved it! Sounds fresh to me, compared to the Astonishing for example. Loved John's tone, more clarity, great fusion-y phrasing in solo starting at 5:36. There's always gonna be what makes DT sounds like DT, that's why I also listen to Obscura, u know, other stuff. As far as DT goes in my book, this was awesome.


----------



## StevenC

This song is pretty boring honestly. It's not actively bad like some of their music, but completely unremarkable.


----------



## Nik_Left_RG

Agree with the assessment above. 

Listening to song made me feel - oh, here we go again - power chord + power chord + few single line notes and top it off with distorted keys. It is getting monotonous at this point. Seems like a re-hash of the past 3/4 albums .. 

I have been a fan since I&W up until ADTOE.. Last few albums have been un-inspiring to say the least. They are stuck in this repetitive formula in the last 3/4 albums..

I guess I am stuck in the past but wouldn't call their last few albums Progressive at all..

All IMHO of course..


----------



## AMOS

The Alien is great from a technical aspect but it's all been done before. I was hoping for some new territory. I hope the rest of the album isn't so familiar


----------



## AMOS

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Same here as being a fan since I&W, but I loved it! Sounds fresh to me, compared to the Astonishing for example. Loved John's tone, more clarity, great fusion-y phrasing in solo starting at 5:36. There's always gonna be what makes DT sounds like DT, that's why I also listen to Obscura, u know, other stuff. As far as DT goes in my book, this was awesome.


The Astonishing wasn't intended to be a progressive masterpiece, it was a story. But at least it had fresh ideas and a new direction. This Berklee stuff gets old, write something interesting with all that knowledge!


----------



## Crungy

I love these guys but lost interest years ago. The riffs and different sections just seem like they're a caricature of their own band, cycling through the same ideas and motifs. 

I'll also say primarily as a bassist that I like you can hear John Myung really well I hated his tone since he went to Musicman basses, this song especially.

I think the last song that really hit me because it's fucking epic was In the Presence of Enemies part 2. The section where it introduces the album opening riff into the Mega Man mono synth part gives me goosebumps every time.

I wonder if any of the other songs will reach those levels.


----------



## Crungy

I will say that watching the video helps it go down a little better lol


----------



## groverj3

Sounds like DT. If you don't like that, you won't like it. It does sound samey, but how many original ideas can someone realistically have? It's good enough that I'll check out the album.

I AM a JP fanboy though.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

It’s gotten better with each listen but like most have said nothing ground breaking here. I miss when DT reserved the heavies intermixed in softer more progressive songs (ie Scarred). They just had more impact. Oh well.

Now what I really want to know is when Romeo is gonna have a new Symphony X album or his next solo album out!!


----------



## Lorcan Ward

TheShreddinHand said:


> Now what I really want to know is when Romeo is gonna have a new Symphony X album or his next solo album out!!



I came across an interview after he released his second solo album saying how disheartened he was with the music industry and how little money albums were making. He said he had a second album ready to record but had lost he motivation to get it done.

it’s been 6 years since the last Symphony X album so hopefully he has been working on music throughout Covid.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Lorcan Ward said:


> I came across an interview after he released his second solo album saying how disheartened he was with the music industry and how little money albums were making. He said he had a second album ready to record but had lost he motivation to get it done.
> 
> it’s been 6 years since the last Symphony X album so hopefully he has been working on music throughout Covid.



Ah yeah, I remember that and maybe explains why he hasn’t released Pt.2. Well that and not having the ability to really tour behind it.


----------



## fps

I really like the new song. It's the band pushing to write the best songs and sections it can, which is fine, and I simply like the melodies and what's going on, nice.


----------



## p0ke

Now that I've heard this song many times, I'm really starting to like it. Seeing Mangini play it at 110% just made it even better for me, that's just crazy:


----------



## Ataraxia2320

The Alien is prob my favourite thing they have done since Octavarium. 

Best production any DT album has ever had by a country mile. Mike Mangini finally sounds like he's been cut lose to do what he wants. Some really interesting rhythmical stuff going on. 

Only downside is the song is about 2 minutes longer than it really needs to be but that's the nature of the beast. Bring on the new album.


----------



## bostjan

Lorcan Ward said:


> I came across an interview after he released his second solo album saying how disheartened he was with the music industry and how little money albums were making. He said he had a second album ready to record but had lost he motivation to get it done.
> 
> it’s been 6 years since the last Symphony X album so hopefully he has been working on music throughout Covid.


I am such a big fan of Symphony X ever since DWoT, and I was so proud of them when they topped the Billboard Rock charts with _Paradise Lost_. But I know that those guys in the band all hold "regular" day jobs and probably will never be even half as big as they deserve, even if they are #1. It's sad to hear that there's no money in it for a band as good as they are to release solo stuff, but I guess that just proves the point that is so often made that if you took a band like DT and took away all of their endorsements and side swag deals, they just wouldn't be making much money.


----------



## I play music

p0ke said:


> Now that I've heard this song many times, I'm really starting to like it. Seeing Mangini play it at 110% just made it even better for me, that's just crazy:



what kind of bass drum pedal does he have? looks like both are not in front of the kick drum?


----------



## p0ke

I play music said:


> what kind of bass drum pedal does he have? looks like both are not in front of the kick drum?



Something like this maybe?







Couldn't really see his feet so I don't know...


----------



## Soya

He mentioned in a video his drum tech combined two Pearl demon drive double pedals to have the main pedal with beaters set up in the middle and two slave pedals, like the Sonor giant step or that goofy ass pedal Will Calhoun uses.


----------



## StevenC

I'm going to see Dream Theater for the first time next year because they just announced their first ever show in my country!


----------



## Lax

Hmmm 4 dates in france, how lucky 

I like the new single but I do agree too with becometheknight's review on youtube, for diehard long time fans it sounds like modern DT doing DT stuff, and some parts of the song sound like easter eggs to previous songs...And that's not what we expect.

On the pro side, the sound is great and I really am touched by the last third of the song, from composition to singing melody, it's way fresher.

Can't wait to listen to this album, the first people talking about it are saying it's gonna be a good one


----------



## I play music

p0ke said:


> Something like this maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't really see his feet so I don't know...





Soya said:


> He mentioned in a video his drum tech combined two Pearl demon drive double pedals to have the main pedal with beaters set up in the middle and two slave pedals, like the Sonor giant step or that goofy ass pedal Will Calhoun uses.


interesting, never before have i seen a pedal like this


----------



## ArtDecade

I play music said:


> interesting, never before have i seen a pedal like this


----------



## p0ke

I play music said:


> interesting, never before have i seen a pedal like this



Yeah, looks pretty weird for sure. But I guess it's convenient if there's hihats on both sides for example...


----------



## I play music

ArtDecade said:


>


I have also never seen that and looks like it's not sold anywhere or is this some popular pedal that anyone plays?


----------



## ArtDecade

I play music said:


> I have also never seen that and looks like it's not sold anywhere or is this some popular pedal that anyone plays?



That is the one that Will Calhoun (Living Colour) uses. I think they are an Aussie company and you buy them direct.


----------



## Lukhas




----------



## Lukhas

Wish I could edit the previous one but alas.


----------



## I play music

Lukhas said:


> Wish I could edit the previous one but alas.



I get the feeling he just likes to hear himself talking but doesn't really show anything


Lukhas said:


>



this guy much better


----------



## p0ke

Just noticed this being posted in the ERG section. Looks pretty cool to me!


----------



## Sermo Lupi

It'll be interesting to see what Petrucci does with the extra range. When he started using a 7-string, a flood of interesting Dream Theater songs followed that thoughtfully utilized the extra range. It genuinely expanded his playing. 

This guitar has been rumoured for, what, five years? Music Man had R&D to do during that time, but it might've taken that long for Petrucci to experiment with an 8-string to see how he could make use of one.


----------



## p0ke

Sermo Lupi said:


> It'll be interesting to see what Petrucci does with the extra range. When he started using a 7-string, a flood of interesting Dream Theater songs followed that thoughtfully utilized the extra range. It genuinely expanded his playing.



Yup, my thoughts exactly.


----------



## technomancer

Sermo Lupi said:


> It'll be interesting to see what Petrucci does with the extra range. When he started using a 7-string, a flood of interesting Dream Theater songs followed that thoughtfully utilized the extra range. It genuinely expanded his playing.
> 
> This guitar has been rumoured for, what, five years? Music Man had R&D to do during that time, but it might've taken that long for Petrucci to experiment with an 8-string to see how he could make use of one.



Yep, and I'm sure no matter what it is the crew here will fill 50 pages with how it is not as good as earlier material x


----------



## bronxct1

Sermo Lupi said:


> It'll be interesting to see what Petrucci does with the extra range. When he started using a 7-string, a flood of interesting Dream Theater songs followed that thoughtfully utilized the extra range. It genuinely expanded his playing.
> 
> This guitar has been rumoured for, what, five years? Music Man had R&D to do during that time, but it might've taken that long for Petrucci to experiment with an 8-string to see how he could make use of one.



The one thing Petrucci has said about it is that he wouldn't seriously play or try to write with an 8 string until he had the production prototype model in the studio to write with like what he did with his first 7 string. DT was almost always in the Write/Release/Tour cycle that I'd bet while EBMM was making prototypes they didn't really have enough of John's time to lock it down until Covid hit which freed John up to do a bunch of things as we saw with LTE3 and his solo album.


----------



## ArtDecade

p0ke said:


> Just noticed this being posted in the ERG section. Looks pretty cool to me!




[John Myung Leaves The Chat]


----------



## mbardu




----------



## p0ke

Premiering right now:



Hmm, interesting. Pretty straight forward song, but that main melody / post chorus thing caught my attention. It has a kind of James Bond movie theme vibe to it. JP's solo was my favorite part of the song though.


----------



## Wc707

Not to sound too snobby, but I'm not really wowed by these new songs. Kinda getting ADTOE vibes from this album.


----------



## ArtDecade

I dug that track a lot more than the Alien one. Also, Petrucci's solo is totally bad ass.


----------



## Siggevaio

People need to stop waiting for Dream Theater to reinvent the wheel, it will never happen. I'm glad that they release music that sounds good even if it's not that exciting. They still have their old songs if you want a good listen.


----------



## bostjan

p0ke said:


> Premiering right now:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, interesting. Pretty straight forward song, but that main melody / post chorus thing caught my attention. It has a kind of James Bond movie theme vibe to it. JP's solo was my favorite part of the song though.




Ok cool. Totally different from the lead single from the new album. It's a good way to heighten intrigue.

I'm still most curious about the use of 8 string on one of the songs, and I think that'll end up being the most talked about thing for better or worse. Until that's out of the way, I'm nervous about liking or disliking too much else. 

For a band that's been around >30 years, this is really pretty good. And when DT seems to play it safe with more straightforward songs, I tend to enjoy the material they come up with, even if it doesn't end up being my favourite of their output, they can still show off some technicality and also how melodic they can be when things get pulled that direction.


----------



## StevenC

That was actually the most I've enjoyed a Dream Theater song in a while. Especially the middle section.

I really wish Dream Theater would hire a producer again. Listening to the 90s stuff you can really hear a difference in things like vocal arranging/production and the way the keys just sit back rhythmically. JP has gotten so stale in that role that this intro keeps faking me out into thinking it's On the Backs of Angels; it's the same shimmery reverb patch and I keep expecting the synth run from OtBoA.


----------



## Evan89




----------



## thedonal

Quite liking the new song, but it sounds to me that DT have been getting more formulaic for a few of their albums now- always at least a track where the vocal melody doesn't really do anything that the 'single' on the last album did.

All that said, I loved the last album- their best for me since Octavarium, and any new DT album is on the purchase list.

Hell- I might even listen to the second half of The Astonishing in the mean time. Just to say I've heard it all! 

Edit- just so's- I'm not saying they shouldn't write anything that the write because it's their music. Just an observation. I felt with Portnoy that they always had drive to do something a bit different on each album. OK you had the 12 steps suite linking across later albums with him and the ends of the albums linking together on a bunch too. But there was a different drive there. It'd sometimes divide the fans who were expecting something heavier or proggier or whatever on each album, but that's the level of expectation you get from such a devoted fanbase.


----------



## Chris Bowsman

When I started playing guitar, "Pull Me Under" was on the radio 24/7. The video for "Lie" put that black and green Universe on my bucket list of guitars (last one I haven't owned). I still listen to "A Change of Seasons" at least weekly, and play the intro whenever I pick up a 7 or 8 string guitar. JP's solo on "Lines in the Sand" is a contender for best solo I've ever heard, but I don't think I've listened to much after that. 

Seems I have some catching up to do.


----------



## bostjan

Chris Bowsman said:


> When I started playing guitar, "Pull Me Under" was on the radio 24/7.


Where the hell did you live?! I heard it maybe a total of half a dozen times on air.


----------



## lurè

Sounds pretty much as modern day Dream Theater; very safe song , nothing extremely good or bad. 
Reminds me of A Rite Of Passage.


----------



## Chris Bowsman

bostjan said:


> Where the hell did you live?! I heard it maybe a total of half a dozen times on air.



Lol, there used to be a great rock station in Dayton, 102.9 WAZU. In the same hour, you’d hear Zeppelin, Metallica, Dream Theater, Pink Floyd, and Alice Cooper. The early 90’s were a great time.


----------



## StevenC

thedonal said:


> Edit- just so's- I'm not saying they shouldn't write anything that the write because it's their music. Just an observation. I felt with Portnoy that they always had drive to do something a bit different on each album. OK you had the 12 steps suite linking across later albums with him and the ends of the albums linking together on a bunch too. But there was a different drive there. It'd sometimes divide the fans who were expecting something heavier or proggier or whatever on each album, but that's the level of expectation you get from such a devoted fanbase.


I broadly agree with this. I really don't want to hear a retread of Images and Words or Awake every two years. I want to see a bunch of talented musicians challenging themselves and trying new things. I may not like much of the 2000s music with Portnoy but they had settled much less into "Dream Theater metal" than they now have.

All in, this is a weird single to release on the 40th anniversary of maybe the most innovative prog album ever.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

New song is a snooze. Definition of autopilot.


----------



## Avedas

I don't like this reverb or whatever they're putting on James. It was all over the last record too.

Song is OK. Sounds like it could have been on any album since Octavarium or so.


----------



## Ralyks

I'll say the intro to the new song had some nice riffage at least...


----------



## RevDrucifer

StevenC said:


> I broadly agree with this. I really don't want to hear a retread of Images and Words or Awake every two years. I want to see a bunch of talented musicians challenging themselves and trying new things. I may not like much of the 2000s music with Portnoy but they had settled much less into "Dream Theater metal" than they now have.
> 
> All in, this is a weird single to release on the 40th anniversary of maybe the most innovative prog album ever.



In comparison to what they’ve put out in the last 20 years, I’d GLADLY take another I&W or Awake every two years.


----------



## StevenC

RevDrucifer said:


> In comparison to what they’ve put out in the last 20 years, I’d GLADLY take another I&W or Awake every two years.


Yeah, if they're going to repeat a formula, they've had better ones.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Damn what happened? Petrucci's solo album, LTE3, and Distance over Time were fucking bangers.


----------



## ArtDecade

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Damn what happened? Petrucci's solo album, LTE3, and Distance over Time were fucking bangers.



They leave space for the singer and it all goes downhill.


----------



## StevenC

ArtDecade said:


> They leave space for the singer and it all goes downhill.


They used to leave more more space for the singer on the good albums.


----------



## ArtDecade

StevenC said:


> They used to leave more more space for the singer on the good albums.



Does James sound like he is getting more nasally as he gets older? It is like his mic has a Tube Screamer built into it now.


----------



## StevenC

ArtDecade said:


> Does James sound like he is getting more nasally as he gets older? It is like his mic has a Tube Screamer built into it now.


It's because Dream Theater has an unimaginative producer who doesn't know what to do with vocals.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

StevenC said:


> It's because Dream Theater has an unimaginative producer who doesn't know what to do with vocals.



Pretty sure that used to be Portnoy's job. He always said he considered the vocals to be the most important part of the music, which I assume means he was even more of a perfectionist about it than normal. It goes a long way toward explaining his relationship with LaBrie.


----------



## StevenC

Sermo Lupi said:


> Pretty sure that used to be Portnoy's job. He always said he considered the vocals to be the most important part of the music, which I assume means he was even more of a perfectionist about it than normal. It goes a long way toward explaining his relationship with LaBrie.


I can believe that. Labrie used a lot more voices in the 2000s than 2010s (Panic Attack, Test That Stumped Them All for example), but he's basically stuck to the same voice since the first word on ADTOE.

Still doesn't compare to the actual vocal production on something like Another Day or Surrounded.


----------



## bostjan

StevenC said:


> I can believe that. Labrie used a lot more voices in the 2000s than 2010s (Panic Attack, Test That Stumped Them All for example), but he's basically stuck to the same voice since the first word on ADTOE.
> 
> Still doesn't compare to the actual vocal production on something like Another Day or Surrounded.





StevenC said:


> I can believe that. Labrie used a lot more voices in the 2000s than 2010s (Panic Attack, Test That Stumped Them All for example), but he's basically stuck to the same voice since the first word on ADTOE.
> 
> Still doesn't compare to the actual vocal production on something like Another Day or Surrounded.


The performance is just as different as the production, though, so it might be tough to separate the two.
I&W vocal performance was pretty over-the-top.


----------



## r33per

bostjan said:


> I&W vocal performance was pretty over-the-top.


I know. Awesome, wasn't it?

"He stands befo the windoooe,
His shadow slowly fading from the waaaAaaaAaaaAaall;
And from an ivory tower he hears her caaaall,
'Let the light surroun-jeeew'"


----------



## bostjan

r33per said:


> I know. Awesome, wasn't it?
> 
> "He stands befo the windoooe,
> His shadow slowly fading from the waaaAaaaAaaaAaall;
> And from an ivory tower he hears her caaaall,
> 'Let the light surroun-jeeew'"


I saw your location as Scotland and immediately sung that in my head with a Scottish accent. It made it 100% better.


----------



## r33per

bostjan said:


> I saw your location as Scotland and immediately sung that in my head with a Scottish accent. It made it 100% better.


It's all in the rolling of those Rs


----------



## StevenC

r33per said:


> I know. Awesome, wasn't it?
> 
> "He stands befo the windoooe,
> His shadow slowly fading from the waaaAaaaAaaaAaall;
> And from an ivory tower he hears her caaaall,
> 'Let the light surroun-jeeew'"


Now sing the guitar solo in Scottish!


----------



## r33per

StevenC said:


> Now sing the guitar solo in Scottish!



What a pain the bagpipes that would be...

The nicht I'll be lyin' doon surrounded by a' the licht.


----------



## StevenC

r33per said:


> What a pain the bagpipes that would be...
> 
> The nicht I'll be lyin' doon surrounded by a' the licht.


Bagpipes and 2290s!


----------



## deigo




----------



## RevDrucifer

I think the only way they’ll excite me again is if they work with a producer like Joe Baresi, Nick Rasculinicksadkasnfdnasdk or Bob Rock. Someone who would get them to change direction a bit and put up a fight doing so. Brendan O’Brien would be good for cutting out the fat in their songs. I love the shit he did with Mastodon.

They just gotta stop letting Petrucci write lyrics/vocals. There’s no way he wasn’t behind “Invisible Monster”. That song title might work if they didn’t actually say it in the song, but actually saying it and referring to it as something dark and sinister with that lame ass vocal delivery….

I’m just going to stop now. Thankfully, they’ve given me plenty of music I absolutely love and I will cherish forever.


----------



## nickgray

RevDrucifer said:


> They just gotta stop letting Petrucci write lyrics/vocals



_She was raised in a small midwestern town
By a charming and eccentric loving father
She was praised as the perfect teenage girl
And everyone thought highly of her_


----------



## r33per

nickgray said:


> _She was raised in a small midwestern town
> By a charming and eccentric loving father
> She was praised as the perfect teenage girl
> And everyone thought highly of her_


The she had a long protracted court battle with her dad over who controls her life...


----------



## StevenC

deigo said:


>



Watching this I am now convinced that JP is the problem and doesn't know the difference between self-producing and under-producing.


----------



## Herb Dorklift

I'm not a big fan of Mike, I think Mike is a MUCH better drummer. Some people think Mike is better and more suited to DT but I think Mike is perfect.


----------



## bostjan

Herb Dorklift said:


> I'm not a big fan of Mike, I think Mike is a MUCH better drummer. Some people think Mike is better and more suited to DT but I think Mike is perfect.


I prefer Mike over Mike, myself.

Did you know that James LaBrie's actual name is Kevin LaBrie, but he changed his name in order to avoid confusion between him and Kevin Moore? Aren't you glad the guys in Dream Theater had the foresight to avoid the name confusion? I bet Mike, Mike, John, and John are equally as relieved as I am.


----------



## Genome

Album is out today. I've given it a couple of listens and I enjoyed it - probably nothing that will shoot to top of the album rankings but it's a solid effort. It's quite dense, there are a lot of ideas packed in (sometimes to the detriment of a couple of the songs). 

I will say though, Sleeping Giant is amazing. Easily the most inspired & creative song they've done since Mangini joined. It's so much better than the rest of the album it's actually kind of jarring.


----------



## p0ke

Yeah, it's pretty cool. Gotta give it a few more spins before I can analyze it properly, but at least I'm not disappointed so far.


----------



## Ben Pinkus

On first listen I've enjoyed it more than most of their albums since Mangini joined tbf


----------



## TrevorT

I've been really enjoying the album. Only on my second listen but I think it's my favourite Mangini-era album, and it beats out several Portnoy-era albums for me as well. That main riff in Answering the Call is gonna be stuck in my head for days.


----------



## kamello

nickgray said:


> _She was raised in a small midwestern town
> By a charming and eccentric loving father
> She was praised as the perfect teenage girl
> And everyone thought highly of her_



ffs, at first I thought this was a parody of The Count Of Tuscany


----------



## Stiman

I haven't listened to it yet, but I hope you guys are right about it being the best Mangini era album.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

I haven’t listened to any of the recent Dream Theater albums so I’m really enjoying this.


----------



## Rock4ever

Has anyone ever preordered via itunes and the tracks won't download upon release? I can't even manually download the album. I think it's the last time I preorder. This has been going on for years and they don't take their support seriously at all.


----------



## Ralyks

I think the album is great... Musically. It's getting harder and harder to defend James vocals with each passing album. He's shot.


----------



## nickgray

Well, I gave it a try, it's about as exciting as the singles. Same old sound, but the riffs are particularly uninspiring this time. James' performance is just bad, I don't think I'll be listening to this album again unless they release an instrumental version.

Distance over Time had a really good standout - At Wit's End, and also Barstool Warrior, S2N, Room 137, were pretty good songs. The new album though... I guess Answering the Call is alright. Alien is decent, but formulaic. Nothing else caught my ear. Couldn't even get through Transcending Time, it's so bleh. The 20 minute song has no business being 20 minutes, it's just stretched out (Iron Maiden style). The 8 string sound is a dud, it just doesn't work, there's nothing there that couldn't have been played in B standard or even higher. So basically, nothing remotely as good as At Wit's End.

I dunno, maybe I'll warm up to it a bit if they'll release an instrumental, but so far it's as much of a dud as their self-titled.


----------



## wankerness

kamello said:


> ffs, at first I thought this was a parody of The Count Of Tuscany



Haha. I have pasted that so many times over the years as an example of lyrics so bad they ruined music for me. It's impossible to ignore it, the phrasing is so awkward!!


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Time for James to retire. Give him a pension or something for being such a swell guy and then get a new person.


----------



## Bdtunn

Some cool riffs and I really like the start of the 8 string song but then it all falls into this pattern
Crazy opening riff
Chugga chugga
Slows down with haunting piano notes
Back to mid tempo riff
James enters
Chorus


----------



## Alberto7

I like the album quite a bit, some super cool songs for sure. But the eponymous song made no sense to me whatsoever. It just sounded like a collection of mini songs. I kept thinking the song had ended and another one started, but nope. Same tune all along.


----------



## StevenC

Listened to it. It's fine but JP really meant it that he didn't do his job and trim the fat on the songs at all.


wankerness said:


> Haha. I have pasted that so many times over the years as an example of lyrics so bad they ruined music for me. It's impossible to ignore it, the phrasing is so awkward!!


And it feels like there are so many verses like this in that "song".


----------



## Evan89

My box set arrived a few days early on Tuesday, so I had a busy week.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

nickgray said:


> Well, I gave it a try, it's about as exciting as the singles. Same old sound, but the riffs are particularly uninspiring this time. James' performance is just bad, I don't think I'll be listening to this album again unless they release an instrumental version.
> 
> Distance over Time had a really good standout - At Wit's End, and also Barstool Warrior, S2N, Room 137, were pretty good songs. The new album though... I guess Answering the Call is alright. Alien is decent, but formulaic. Nothing else caught my ear. Couldn't even get through Transcending Time, it's so bleh. The 20 minute song has no business being 20 minutes, it's just stretched out (Iron Maiden style). The 8 string sound is a dud, it just doesn't work, there's nothing there that couldn't have been played in B standard or even higher. So basically, nothing remotely as good as At Wit's End.
> 
> I dunno, maybe I'll warm up to it a bit if they'll release an instrumental, but so far it's as much of a dud as their self-titled.



I listened to it twice today and feel the same as you. The whole album sounds like it was recorded underneath a giant moving blanket. Sure there are good riffs here and there and there are “parts” of songs I enjoy but no complete/cohesive song from end to end really. And it is really apparent that the vocal lines and melodies were a complete afterthought on this album. Doesn’t help that James sounds uninspired on every tune as well. Honestly the vocals all sound the same from song to song. The 8 string song sounds like The Enemy Inside just played on an 8 instead of a 7 which is disappointing. And since when did JP rely so heavily on 0-0-0-0 riffs?? Not every part of a song needs to be filled with guitar. Oh well, at least the new Northtale song that came out on my preorder today as well kicks ass!


----------



## Avedas

I wonder, does James even care anymore? I was listening to the 2017 Budokan show the other day and he sounded like some drunk dude singing DT at karaoke.


----------



## bronxct1

Ralyks said:


> I think the album is great... Musically. It's getting harder and harder to defend James vocals with each passing album. He's shot.



Weird, I really liked James on DOT and think he absolutely crushed this new album. He stood out to me the most after my first listen.

I really really enjoyed this album after my first listen. So many moments just brought smiles to my face because I knew I’d be listening to this for a while.


----------



## lurè

Good riffs here and there but overall kinda boring; i liked much more the previous release.


----------



## Furtive Glance

Listened once through last night... Exceptionally disjointed album. I don’t even know if I have an opinion on it, yet. Not a single thing stood out to me aside from the aforementioned vocals just being phoned in and the 8-string song sounding exactly like I expected. I can’t see JP using that guitar much, if ever again.


----------



## Marked Man

Stiman said:


> I haven't listened to it yet, but I hope you guys are right about it being the best Mangini era album.



I'm definitely going to give it a chance....on the interets first....


----------



## Marked Man

Alberto7 said:


> I like the album quite a bit, some super cool songs for sure. But the eponymous song made no sense to me whatsoever. It just sounded like a collection of mini songs. I kept thinking the song had ended and another one started, but nope. Same tune all along.



When you realize that DT has already played virtually all of the cool Prog Metal riffs and solos imaginable in one form or other 50 times each, there is an inescapable feeling of strange deja vu.... 

I'm sure that is part of what pushed Portnoy over the edge as well, in addition to endless touring for 3 decades. Regardless, I am absolutely stunned that a group of 5 humans can remember all of those intricate odd timings and play them in perfect synchronicity together on tour. I guess I simply don't have enough memory.


----------



## Marked Man

Bdtunn said:


> Some cool riffs and I really like the start of the 8 string song but then it all falls into this pattern
> Crazy opening riff
> Chugga chugga
> Slows down with haunting piano notes
> Back to mid tempo riff
> James enters
> Chorus



First time EVA for them to try that one!

I recall Petrucci didn't really properly strangle the 7 string for numerous albums, always have a rather soft, rolly polly Low B string. He finally started nailing it starting on the first song of Black Clouds....

Let's hope he likewise turns up the aggression of the 8 string. Although the song with still basically remain the same.....they are a highly developed and extremely skilled band, but we all have our comfort zones....no one has ever managed to continually reinvent themselves for 30-40 years yet. Most can't do it well for more than 10 years, although DT has already beaten that by miles and has stayed relevant in their musical sphere.


----------



## Evan89

Marked Man said:


> First time EVA for them to try that one!
> 
> I recall Petrucci didn't really properly strangle the 7 string for numerous albums, always have a rather soft, rolly polly Low B string. *He finally started nailing it starting on the first song of Black Clouds....*


A Nightmare to Remember is a 6-string tuned to C standard. He used that tuning before on As I Am, Honor thy Father, and In the Name of God. And then Untethered Angel.


----------



## Alberto7

Cringeworthy vocals aside, The Dark Eternal Night is probably one of my favorite uss of the 7 string by JP. I feel like that song isn't talked about nearly enough amongst guitar players.


----------



## Ralyks

Alberto7 said:


> Cringeworthy vocals aside, The Dark Eternal Night is probably one of my favorite uss of the 7 string by JP. I feel like that song isn't talked about nearly enough amongst guitar players.



Really? That seems like the go to song when people name 7 string Petrucci songs. I personally think Bridges in the Sky in underrated in his 7 string repertoire.


----------



## StevenC

Marked Man said:


> When you realize that DT has already played virtually all of the cool Prog Metal riffs and solos imaginable in one form or other 50 times each, there is an inescapable feeling of strange deja vu....


I mean, sure, if you haven't listened to other prog metal bands you might believe this.


----------



## Alberto7

Ralyks said:


> Really? That seems like the go to song when people name 7 string Petrucci songs. I personally think Bridges in the Sky in underrated in his 7 string repertoire.



I just don't recall ever having a conversation about that song with anyone, or reading much about it. It's just such a good song and so much fun to play. A great hand workout too


----------



## ekarinsm

Some amazing songs, and some confusing ones. As with all Dream Theater records, I find that repeated listenings help me enjoy their compositions more.

For example, I was pretty apprehensive towards the title track at first, but after listening to it a few more times, I'm starting to enjoy it for some reason...


----------



## Ataraxia2320

On my first listen I have enjoyed this more than anything since systematic chaos. 

Answering the call sounds like it could have been on Train of Thought. The Alien, Transcending Time and Sleeping Giant are all great for me. The title track and Awaken the Master are both decent. Really did not care for invisible monster.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

So this album ended up actually being pretty good? May check it out later.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> So this album ended up actually being pretty good? May check it out later.



It's decent to good. Production gives it extra points.

At least that's my 2c.


----------



## StevenC

Ataraxia2320 said:


> At least that's my 2c.


I get it


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ataraxia2320 said:


> At least that's my 2c.



Hows it compare to the Mark IV?


----------



## gunshow86de




----------



## RevDrucifer

I still haven’t listened to it yet. Gotta be in the right frame of mind (really high) to dig into DT these days. 

As for why not many speak of “A Nightmare To Remember”, I know at that point, a lot of us older DT fans were falling off, if we already hadn’t. I actually remember thinking back then, as they were having videos played on MTV2 and YouTube was becoming a bigger thing, that there was going to be a big gap between modern DT fans who just jump onboard with Black Clouds and the older ones who were getting a bit jaded with them. 

It’s GREAT that they seemed to have caught a 2nd wind and managed to pick up more fans that far into their career. When I was in high school, NO ONE knew who DT was (graduated in 01) and now there aren’t many metal fans who aren’t familiar with DT. 

Pinnacle 7-string Petrucci for me is “The Mirror” and “A Change Of Seasons”. His tones on Awake are my favorite Petrucci tones. I was just reading the other day he used a MKIV and a Dual Rec and quad tracked most of the rhythms on that album, with the amps on either side of the other. I’d love to try to replicate that with my AxeFX.


----------



## StevenC

RevDrucifer said:


> I still haven’t listened to it yet. Gotta be in the right frame of mind (really high) to dig into DT these days.
> 
> As for why not many speak of “A Nightmare To Remember”, I know at that point, a lot of us older DT fans were falling off, if we already hadn’t. I actually remember thinking back then, as they were having videos played on MTV2 and YouTube was becoming a bigger thing, that there was going to be a big gap between modern DT fans who just jump onboard with Black Clouds and the older ones who were getting a bit jaded with them.
> 
> It’s GREAT that they seemed to have caught a 2nd wind and managed to pick up more fans that far into their career. When I was in high school, NO ONE knew who DT was (graduated in 01) and now there aren’t many metal fans who aren’t familiar with DT.
> 
> Pinnacle 7-string Petrucci for me is “The Mirror” and “A Change Of Seasons”. His tones on Awake are my favorite Petrucci tones. I was just reading the other day he used a MKIV and a Dual Rec and quad tracked most of the rhythms on that album, with the amps on either side of the other. I’d love to try to replicate that with my AxeFX.


Awake is all IIC+ and an early Rectifier. He wasn't using the IV yet.


----------



## bostjan

Reading through the last couple interviews with JP and JL whilst listening to the new album over the weekend, I am getting a suspicion there is trouble brewing between the two Johns and James.

Anyway, first impression of the new album is that it's alright. Vocals are definitely giving me a vibe that LaBrie's heart wasn't 100% into it. The music sounds good, but nothing that made my jaw hit the floor, which used to be my usual reaction to hearing DT, but, since Mike left the band, not so much. In fact, after listening to the album, a bunch of older DT was auto-playing, and it sounded so much *better*. Drums were more interesting, vocals were bolder, and just the general cohesion was fantastic. That's not to say that they aren't super tight, it's just that they used to be a sort of god-level of tight, and now they are just really tight. The 8 string stuff, like everyone said, could have been done on a downtuned 6. When JP picked up a 7 for _Awake_, he made the solo for Lie, which couldn't possibly be played on a downtuned 6 without a bunch of extra frets or something... but don't get me wrong, the new stuff is still good. The expectation that everything should blow me away is not really at all fair. It's mostly just my fear that one of my favourite bands is slowly getting dull.


----------



## RevDrucifer

bostjan said:


> Reading through the last couple interviews with JP and JL whilst listening to the new album over the weekend, I am getting a suspicion there is trouble brewing between the two Johns and James.
> 
> Anyway, first impression of the new album is that it's alright. Vocals are definitely giving me a vibe that LaBrie's heart wasn't 100% into it. The music sounds good, but nothing that made my jaw hit the floor, which used to be my usual reaction to hearing DT, but, since Mike left the band, not so much. In fact, after listening to the album, a bunch of older DT was auto-playing, and it sounded so much *better*. Drums were more interesting, vocals were bolder, and just the general cohesion was fantastic. That's not to say that they aren't super tight, it's just that they used to be a sort of god-level of tight, and now they are just really tight. The 8 string stuff, like everyone said, could have been done on a downtuned 6. When JP picked up a 7 for _Awake_, he made the solo for Lie, which couldn't possibly be played on a downtuned 6 without a bunch of extra frets or something... but don't get me wrong, the new stuff is still good. The expectation that everything should blow me away is not really at all fair. It's mostly just my fear that one of my favourite bands is slowly getting dull.



I can’t say I often envy James. Dude has most of his lyrics and melodies handed to him and it wasn’t until the last decade he was even allowed to track without Petrucci or Portnoy dictating everything to him. That’s precisely why I’ve quit bands in the past. If the dude is fine just being a singer without a creative outlet, more power to him, but that would drive me fucking nuts. 

He’s also been playing it a lot safer for the last few years and rarely pushes himself out of the range he’s been sitting in for a while. Understandably, dude’s singing 3.5 hour shows 5 nights a week, that’s brutal on the voice, but playing it safe sounds……safe. 

And while I agree, it’s not fair to expect everything to blow you/us away, it just feels like a different DT. I still say the biggest thing working against them is that they’re dictating how the songs should go instead of just jamming on them for weeks and letting them progress naturally. Those first few albums were written over years in a practice space, they had all the time in the world to flesh them out. Writing in the studio for SFAM worked because they had a theme to stay centered on, but everything that followed seems like it was born on a dry-erase board rather than improv jamming and seeing where it goes.

I’d rather they go back to their old way of writing and take 10 years to put out a killer album than banging them out every other year.


----------



## thedonal

My first listen the other day (asides from the 1st two "singles" on YouTube).

It's really DT by numbers. Some good moments, some awful. The Alien sounded better second time round, but Invisible Monster was way worse- some really bad note choices in there for the vocals. 

I enjoyed Awaken The Master and the title track probably most of all.

The 8 string thing was a non-event really. Just another bit of gear to sell with the new album.

And I think the production is sounding too polished and safe these days- there are no edges. 

At least Rudess isn't running away with himself any more. 

A step back after Distance Over Time - they really nailed that one. 

I'll go on getting new DT albums for sure- I'm a fan. But I'm no longer excited by them. 

I'll not hurry the second listen though..


----------



## Xaios

Marked Man said:


> there is an inescapable feeling of strange deja vu....


----------



## Genome

bostjan said:


> Reading through the last couple interviews with JP and JL whilst listening to the new album over the weekend, I am getting a suspicion there is trouble brewing between the two Johns and James.



Do you mean regarding the tour cancellation? I picked up on that too.


----------



## chewpac

the mix is insane. Andy Sneap. Who's that guy??? kidding. this might have the best bass mix of any DT record to date. Myung sounds clear, present, and massive. it's awesome.

that said....i've only hit about 1/2 the record so far and it's a slog for me. 

i'll probably keep trying for a little while. a lot of it really does feel like DT by numbers, as has been said.


----------



## ArtDecade

chewpac said:


> Andy Sneap. Who's that guy???



He is the other guitar player in Judas Priest.


----------



## bostjan

Genome said:


> Do you mean regarding the tour cancellation? I picked up on that too.


That's a part of it. Factor in how Labrie's vocal performance sounds on the record, the fact that there's a new(ish) LTE record with Portnoy - coupled with how Portnoy has been a little more outspoken lately about Labrie. Then the tour cancellation and the way the record was recorded, according to interviews, with Labrie joining in via Skype while the rest of the band met in person, Labrie choosing to spend more time with his family in Canada, etc. It sounds similar to the situation that got Portnoy expelled from the band, except a) Labrie is probably more difficult to replace, at least in some ways and b) more, importantly, covid.


----------



## ArtDecade

bostjan said:


> That's a part of it. Factor in how Labrie's vocal performance sounds on the record, the fact that there's a new(ish) LTE record with Portnoy - coupled with how Portnoy has been a little more outspoken lately about Labrie. Then the tour cancellation and the way the record was recorded, according to interviews, with Labrie joining in via Skype while the rest of the band met in person, Labrie choosing to spend more time with his family in Canada, etc. It sounds similar to the situation that got Portnoy expelled from the band, except a) Labrie is probably more difficult to replace, at least in some ways and b) more, importantly, covid.



Labrie is easy to replace. Someone like Dino Jelusic would take that gig in a heartbeat and elevate the band in the process.


----------



## bostjan

ArtDecade said:


> Labrie is easy to replace. Someone like Dino Jelusic would take that gig in a heartbeat and elevate the band in the process.


Maybe.

DT has always had shit luck when it comes to hiring singers, though. Isn't that right Long Beach?!


----------



## Evan89

I transcribed this song last since most people (myself included) don't have an 8-string:


----------



## Dooky

kamello said:


> ffs, at first I thought this was a parody of The Count Of Tuscany


I have to say, when I first listened to that song I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not. I had to goggle it. Possibly the worst lyrics I have ever heard. 
However, in saying that, I really enjoy their latest album. Best one for a long time in my opinion.


----------



## nickgray

Dooky said:


> Possibly the worst lyrics I have ever heard.



You know, I remember reading that it was after this incident (which was real) that Petrucci decided to get into bodybuilding (or transform into a bear, rather).


----------



## Dooky

nickgray said:


> You know, I remember reading that it was after this incident (which was real) that Petrucci decided to get into bodybuilding (or transform into a bear, rather).


Yeah, I read that it was all based on a true experience Petrucci had, which somehow makes the lyrics even worse for me.


----------



## Siggevaio

ArtDecade said:


> Labrie is easy to replace. Someone like Dino Jelusic would take that gig in a heartbeat and elevate the band in the process.


You're not only replacing a voice but also a person and their legacy. I'm sure Jason Richardson could replace Petrucci but it still wouldn't be the same.

Anyway, Devin Townsend are joining them on tour next year in Europe. Looking forward to it!


----------



## ArtDecade

Siggevaio said:


> You're not only replacing a voice but also a person and their legacy. I'm sure Jason Richardson could replace Petrucci but it still wouldn't be the same.
> 
> Anyway, Devin Townsend are joining them on tour next year in Europe. Looking forward to it!



Jason Richardson can play, but a sum total of zero of his songs are remotely memorable. Petrucci is a monster player and (for better or worse) the key songwriter and lyricist of the DT since Mike left the fold. Labrie hasn't brought anything to the table in decades and in that time his voice is just getting worse and worse. A singer with range and energy would only add to their legacy and now is as good as ever to make the change.


----------



## p0ke

Siggevaio said:


> Anyway, Devin Townsend are joining them on tour next year in Europe. Looking forward to it!



You know what would be interesting? Change the "are" to "is", and imagine what that would sound like


----------



## StevenC

ArtDecade said:


> Jason Richardson can play, but a sum total of zero of his songs are remotely memorable. Petrucci is a monster player and (for better or worse) the key songwriter and lyricist of the DT since Mike left the fold. Labrie hasn't brought anything to the table in decades and in that time his voice is just getting worse and worse. A singer with range and energy would only add to their legacy and now is as good as ever to make the change.


Petrucci hasn't written anything interesting for Dream Theater in decades either. Changing up the lineup could be good for both Jason and Dream Theater.


----------



## Siggevaio

p0ke said:


> You know what would be interesting? Change the "are" to "is", and imagine what that would sound like


 Congrats, You turned a thread about Dream Theater into a grammar lesson. Not needed.


----------



## p0ke

Siggevaio said:


> Congrats, You turned a thread about Dream Theater into a grammar lesson. Not needed.



That's not what I meant. How you wrote it is absolutely correct if you refer to Devin Townsend as a band (which you did), but changing that word would change the meaning of the sentence to Devin (as a person) performing with Dream Theater. I was just trying to say it in a clever way.


----------



## ArtDecade

Siggevaio said:


> Congrats, You turned a thread about Dream Theater into a grammar lesson. Not needed.



LOL. That is clearly not what @p0ke said. I guess we can turn a Dream Theater thread into a reading comprehension lesson, but that is not needed either.



StevenC said:


> Petrucci hasn't written anything interesting for Dream Theater in decades either. Changing up the lineup could be good for both Jason and Dream Theater.



In that case, I want to hear Marty Friedman in Dream Theater.


----------



## Siggevaio

p0ke said:


> That's not what I meant. How you wrote it is absolutely correct if you refer to Devin Townsend as a band (which you did), but changing that word would change the meaning of the sentence to Devin (as a person) performing with Dream Theater. I was just trying to say it in a clever way.


 Haha, sorry! I know he's a person (and I would definitely have written about him as a person) so since it WAS a grammar mistake I took it as a jab.  Cheers!

And I might have done the same mistake again. Anyway, I will be glad to attend a concert with Devin Townsend (as a band, or with a band...) as well as Dream Theater.


----------



## p0ke

Siggevaio said:


> Anyway, I will be glad to attend a concert with Devin Townsend (as a band, or with a band...) as well as Dream Theater.



Same here, but unfortunately it looks like they aren't coming to Finland this time 

Anyway, DT with DT on vocals could be interesting too


----------



## Andromalia

Labrie is the reason why I didn't ever get into DT, whatever can be said of guitar players and tone and technicity, singers are a major factor in whether you appreciate a band or not. (Blaze Bailey hint)


----------



## ArtDecade

Andromalia said:


> Labrie is the reason why I didn't ever get into DT, whatever can be said of guitar players and tone and technicity, singers are a major factor in whether you appreciate a band or not. (Blaze Bailey hint)



I really enjoy those two Blaze Maiden albums. The tunes are great and his voice is solid. That said, Blaze never had the range to cover Bruce and he was given an impossible void to fill. I think Maiden chose Blaze because they wanted to go in a different direction, but the fans weren't really down for the adjustment. All in all, it was a failed experiment, but Blaze was not to fault for the two albums. I think they are overlooked.


----------



## RevDrucifer

bostjan said:


> Maybe.
> 
> DT has always had shit luck when it comes to hiring singers, though. Isn't that right Long Beach?!





Imagine being onstage when he said that. I can just imagine Petrucci looking back at Portnoy shaking his head while Portnoy probably had to hold himself back from throwing a stick at him.


----------



## ArtDecade

_Scream for me!_


----------



## RevDrucifer

Andromalia said:


> Labrie is the reason why I didn't ever get into DT, whatever can be said of guitar players and tone and technicity, singers are a major factor in whether you appreciate a band or not. (Blaze Bailey hint)



You and many, many, many, many other people.

I can certainly understand why. For me, I was into Geoff Tate before I was LaBrie and I just loved the more operatic vocal style back then. If I were to get into them now it’d be really hard for me to move past it.

I want to hear Bjorn Strid from Soilwork sing some Dream Theater in his own style. I bet he’d pull off some pretty damn good shit in that band.


----------



## bostjan

Andromalia said:


> Labrie is the reason why I didn't ever get into DT, whatever can be said of guitar players and tone and technicity, singers are a major factor in whether you appreciate a band or not. (Blaze Bailey hint)



Watch them somehow end up ditching Labrie, and end up with Blaze Bailey now that you've said that.


----------



## ArtDecade

bostjan said:


> Watch them somehow end up ditching Labrie, and end up with Blaze Bailey now that you've said that.



At least Blaze would be committed to the music even when he can't pull it off.


----------



## bostjan

ArtDecade said:


> At least Blaze would be committed to the music even when he can't pull it off.


Nothing is ever the way it should be
What we deserve we just don't get you see
A briefcase, a lunch, a man on the edge (of joining Dream Theater)






I mean, I'd definitely check it out.


----------



## ArtDecade

bostjan said:


> I mean, I'd definitely check it out.



Twice. I would check that out twice.


----------



## Andromalia

ArtDecade said:


> I really enjoy those two Blaze Maiden albums.


I liked X Factor but virtual 11 sounded just bad to me.


----------



## StevenC

Ok, updated list:

Awake
Images & Words
Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From a Memory
Falling Into Infinity
A Change of Seasons

A Dramatic Turn of Events
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Octavarium
Train of Thought
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite
Distance Over Time
A View From The Top of The World
Dream Theater
6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Astonishing
I'm really lucky 6 Degrees has one whole song on it or it would have been a tough call.


----------



## chewpac

so i've been through the new record a couple of times now. it's ok, but the vocals are tough for me on this record. i've been a DT fan since Awake hit the shelves, so it's not like I am new to Labrie's vocals. just sounds a little ... i don't really know. 

it's getting better with repeated listens. nothing on here touches At Wit's End or Breaking All Illusions, which are the highlights for me in the Mangini era.


----------



## RevDrucifer

chewpac said:


> so i've been through the new record a couple of times now. it's ok, but the vocals are tough for me on this record. i've been a DT fan since Awake hit the shelves, so it's not like I am new to Labrie's vocals. just sounds a little ... i don't really know.
> 
> it's getting better with repeated listens. nothing on here touches At Wit's End or Breaking All Illusions, which are the highlights for me in the Mangini era.



Yeah, the vocals are the weak link for me and I came in as a fan around the same time you did. There’s just nothing that stands out and pulls me in, nothing memorable or hooky. And while they’ve never been a band that hit me hard with their lyrics, shit like “Invisible Monster” is laughable. I assume the lyrics are alluding to states of depression or mental health issues, but absolutely nothing about the way he delivers them gives me the feeling they come from an authentic place. 

Musically, there’s some cool stuff there, but I think I’m just past the point in life where the prog-by-numbers thing does anything at all for me. If they’d get back to writing in a practice room and letting the songs dictate themselves instead of arranging everything in Pro Tools or a dry erase board, I’d probably enjoy it a lot more, but being that they haven’t done that in over 20 years, I’m not expecting it any time soon.


----------



## profwoot

I'm very much over DT these days, but the vocals do seem especially bad on the new one. The performance, the lyrics, the vocal melodies -- it all seems really phoned in. It used to be that the vocal melodies were at least pretty good, and occasionally the lyrics were too (mostly the ones written by anyone other than JP). Has the trooch been writing all the lyrics lately? A wordsmith he is not. Even KJLB's occasional lyrical contributions were superior, as I recall.


----------



## bostjan

Browsing through what the internet considers the cringiest DT lyrics, JP penned 90% of them. But, IMO, he wrote a portion of the best lyrics as well. It seems maybe like the more lyrics he writes for a particular album, the lower the overall quality. So, maybe he is able to write quality lyrics if he takes his time, but since no one else in the band is bothering to contribute lyrics anymore, that's one aspect of the band where the creative output is suffering.

Granted, SfaM is one of my favourite all-time albums, but there are moments even there where the lyrics make me grimace.

It'd be nice if they had their own Bernie Taupin/Jim Steinman - type of person who could really write lyrics that people found interesting or at least something more consistent in quality.


----------



## ArtDecade

bostjan said:


> It'd be nice if they had their own Bernie Taupin/Jim Steinman - type of person who could really write lyrics that people found interesting or at least something more consistent in quality.



Agreed. I would like a Paul Mazurkiewicz / John Petrucci lyrical partnership.


----------



## bostjan

ArtDecade said:


> Agreed. I would like a Paul Mazurkiewicz / John Petrucci lyrical partnership.



Now those would be some_ de_compositions to remember!


----------



## chewpac

bostjan said:


> Browsing through what the internet considers the *cringiest DT lyrics, JP penned 90% of them. But, IMO, he wrote a portion of the best lyrics as well.* It seems maybe like the more lyrics he writes for a particular album, the lower the overall quality. So, maybe he is able to write quality lyrics if he takes his time, but since no one else in the band is bothering to contribute lyrics anymore, that's one aspect of the band where the creative output is suffering.
> 
> Granted, SfaM is one of my favourite all-time albums, but there are moments even there where the lyrics make me grimace.
> 
> It'd be nice if they had their own Bernie Taupin/Jim Steinman - type of person who could really write lyrics that people found interesting or at least something more consistent in quality.



Absolutely. It's hard to believe that the guy who wrote Voices also wrote The Count of Tuscany. There were some solid lyrics on the first few records. Some drivel, too, but the ratios have certainly shifted over the years.


----------



## p0ke

Apparently the new DT album is #1 on the Finnish album chart this week (both the general list and the physical albums list). Yeah, record sales are hitting rock bottom, but still pretty cool IMO


----------



## ArtDecade

To be fair, you can sell a thousand units and break into the charts nowadays.


----------



## Lukhas

Bdtunn said:


> Some cool riffs and I really like the start of the 8 string song but then it all falls into this pattern
> Crazy opening riff
> Chugga chugga
> Slows down with haunting piano notes
> Back to mid tempo riff
> James enters
> Chorus


Sums it up for me. Aside from the lyrics and vocal melodies that are... questionable at best, it felt very business-like. It's not even about LaBrie's performance, just the stuff he was given to sing was quite weak, and the chugs during the vocal lines just brings the weaknesses in the vocal parts forward a lot considering there's not much to support it and make you forget about the lyrics and vocal melodies. But aside from that, it was ok: an ok album from an ageing band that's unlikely to reinvent the wheel. I forced myself to listen a few more times, I couldn't really get into it, but it wasn't as if I had to stop the record from playing either. 2bh, it also speaks volume about my decaying attention span: I can't seem to focus on what I'm listening to anymore.  

It felt very much by the numbers, like they had to release something as an excuse to go back on tour now that it's starting to become a possibility. DoT felt like yesterday...


----------



## profwoot

Lukhas said:


> and the chugs during the vocal lines just brings the weaknesses in the vocal parts forward a lot considering there's not much to support it and make you forget about the lyrics and vocal melodies.



This is astute. Labrie is really _featured_ more than a lot of lead singers are. Presumably because that's just the musical sensibility of the band rather than being an intentional decision to really have the _vocals_, of all available options, so often carry the song. It's become increasingly unfortunate.


----------



## Lukhas

profwoot said:


> This is astute. Labrie is really _featured_ more than a lot of lead singers are. Presumably because that's just the musical sensibility of the band rather than being an intentional decision to really have the _vocals_, of all available options, so often carry the song. It's become increasingly unfortunate.


And yet, on the other hand, he can also disappear for five whole minutes in the middle of a song while the other band members are shredding their instruments. Every time LaBrie comes back the band becomes much more quiet; as if the teacher got in the room after recess.  It reminds me that LaBrie's solo work is worth a good spin; the material he had to work with on this latest record is however very weak. I'm not completely blaming him... aside from him basically mailing it; just like his bandmates on this record really. 

I'm breaking the record, but compared to the previous release, it really felt like they had to release something to keep the band active. DoT is still in the footsteps of their modern albums and therefore unlikely to surprise you, but also felt a lot more fresh to me.


----------



## Furtive Glance

chewpac said:


> so i've been through the new record a couple of times now. it's ok, but the vocals are tough for me on this record. i've been a DT fan since Awake hit the shelves, so it's not like I am new to Labrie's vocals. just sounds a little ... i don't really know.
> 
> it's getting better with repeated listens. nothing on here touches At Wit's End or Breaking All Illusions, which are the highlights for me in the Mangini era.



QFT. I decided to listen to At Wit’s End last week a little while after digesting this new album. That song has “it” for sure. Just a really great song.


----------



## StevenC

bostjan said:


> Browsing through what the internet considers the cringiest DT lyrics, JP penned 90% of them. But, IMO, he wrote a portion of the best lyrics as well. It seems maybe like the more lyrics he writes for a particular album, the lower the overall quality. So, maybe he is able to write quality lyrics if he takes his time, but since no one else in the band is bothering to contribute lyrics anymore, that's one aspect of the band where the creative output is suffering.
> 
> Granted, SfaM is one of my favourite all-time albums, but there are moments even there where the lyrics make me grimace.
> 
> It'd be nice if they had their own Bernie Taupin/Jim Steinman - type of person who could really write lyrics that people found interesting or at least something more consistent in quality.


What's Peter Sinfield up to these days?

If that doesn't work out Dream Theater should take a leaf from another of their favourite bands, Yes. Literally no one has ever criticised Jon Anderson's lyrics because it's not meant to be meaningful, it's meant to fit. What does Total Mass Retain mean? Siberian Khatru is a strong of vaguely mystic words, Olympia he literally sings about studio rack gear.


----------



## bostjan

p0ke said:


> Apparently the new DT album is #1 on the Finnish album chart this week (both the general list and the physical albums list). Yeah, record sales are hitting rock bottom, but still pretty cool IMO


One of my old bands charted in Germany a few years ago with a song that we made less than $20 royalty share on. Granted, it was the metal chart and we were only on it for a week in a low position, but it literally takes nothing more than a blip to chart in smaller markets these days.



StevenC said:


> What's Peter Sinfield up to these days?
> 
> If that doesn't work out Dream Theater should take a leaf from another of their favourite bands, Yes. Literally no one has ever criticised Jon Anderson's lyrics because it's not meant to be meaningful, it's meant to fit. What does Total Mass Retain mean? Siberian Khatru is a strong of vaguely mystic words, Olympia he literally sings about studio rack gear.



Hell, I'm sure there are plenty of people more their age who could write better lyrics, and I'm sure out of that pool, there'd be at least one willing to do it. They could even keep writing their own lyrics, and just have the lyricist take some of the pressure off.

But, then again, if DT didn't have this discussion within the last 10 years, maybe it doesn't really matter at this point.


----------



## p0ke

bostjan said:


> One of my old bands charted in Germany a few years ago with a song that we made less than $20 royalty share on. Granted, it was the metal chart and we were only on it for a week in a low position, but it literally takes nothing more than a blip to chart in smaller markets these days.



Sure, but this was the "main" chart that has all the big mainstream stuff on it. Still doesn't mean a thing though, I just thought it was cool.

Speaking of cool, check this out:







Doesn't exactly match the band's IRL image, but still very awesome.


----------



## ArtDecade




----------



## Matt08642

Listened to the new album, not bad, Awaken the Master was my favorite overall, but reminded me a lot of E=mc2 by Ayreon:



Skip to 1:50 and see if you hear what I mean or if I'm just a crazy person.


----------



## RevelGTR

DT will always mean so much to me but this new album is embarrassing. It’s not even terrible, it’s just so mediocre and derivative of previous work that it has literally no reason to exist. When you replace 1 of 2 band leaders with a yes man (not MM’s fault at all, just reality when you’re the new guy in an established band) it’s no surprise that so much of the magic is gone.


----------



## Evan89

Happy 20th anniversary to Six Degrees! This solo is one of my favorites from JP and I thought this transcription would be a fun way to commemorate the album.


----------



## TheShreddinHand

Evan89 said:


> Happy 20th anniversary to Six Degrees! This solo is one of my favorites from JP and I thought this transcription would be a fun way to commemorate the album.




Killer, thanks Evan!


----------



## Lukhas

I don't find it too special, but it confirms what I think of LaBrie: it's high time he sings in his medium range (which is still reasonnably high) instead of having to pretend it's 1992 again on every new record. Not that his bandmates are much more inspired anyway, judging by the latest album.

EDIT: Oh wait, there's that too.


----------



## Furtive Glance

Got Priestess vibes ala Periphery from that. Wasn’t expecting that from LaBrie. I don’t think he’s had a song in that acoustic-ish style before that I can recall from his solo albums. Mostly all power ballads with distortion.


----------



## Ben Pinkus

Reminds me of some newer Opeth in places too


----------



## Marked Man

p0ke said:


> Sure, but this was the "main" chart that has all the big mainstream stuff on it. Still doesn't mean a thing though, I just thought it was cool.
> 
> Speaking of cool, check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't exactly match the band's IRL image, but still very awesome.



Highly romanticized to put it mildly....

Would be like depicting Dany Devito as a mini-me version of Ahnold on the movie poster for Twins, complete with bulging muscles.


----------



## Lukhas




----------



## bostjan

Lukhas said:


>



Is that Chance on drums? He looks really grown up.

Also, the song is pretty cool. Not really super memorable or catchy, though, and the video itself is a bit, IDK... laid back... disjointed... dare I say not-good. I guess I don't expect too much from a music video from a solo album from a singer from a band that isn't particularly singer-y or music-video-y.


----------



## Alberto7

^ they played with Falset here in Montreal, his son's (Chance) band. Pretty cool, actually. Their singer was great live. From what I remember they gave me some Bad Omens' "The Death of Peace of Mind" vibes, but maybe a bit more alt metal-ish. I really should go back and listen to them again, because I genuinely liked them.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

James LaBrie's solo efforts will always be "Marco Sfogli albums" to me. Dude is such a beast. I always look forward to anything he does.


----------



## Evan89

I'm back again with another updated DT tab book! Transcribed from the isolated guitar tracks, and I of course referenced live videos as well. Songs will be uploaded to my channel each day of the week, concluding with the title track on Friday.


----------



## ShredmasterD

Evan89 said:


> I'm back again with another updated DT tab book! Transcribed from the isolated guitar tracks, and I of course referenced live videos as well. Songs will be uploaded to my channel each day of the week, concluding with the title track on Friday.



nice. i listened to that cd a million times. you got it nailed


----------



## Evan89

Here's a few more:


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Evan89 said:


> Here's a few more:




Brilliant, as usual! 

Aside from that tab of Running with the Devil you did back in 2019, I can't see any others from Symphony X. Any plans to tackle more of their catalogue in the future?


----------



## Veldar

Alright, big fan of images and words, used to listen to their greatest hit album back in high school.

What's the right mood for me to tackle Sfam? Should I be doing something g else while listening? I've never made it past the first couple of tracks.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Veldar said:


> Alright, big fan of images and words, used to listen to their greatest hit album back in high school.
> 
> What's the right mood for me to tackle Sfam? Should I be doing something g else while listening? I've never made it past the first couple of tracks.



Well, when I first listened to that album I threw on headphones, laid down in bed and I don’t think I got back up until I heard it at least 3x in it’s entirety. 

That said, it came out at the height of my DT fanboyism. But really, that album is best enjoyed in it’s entirety. Pretty sure I was reading the lyrics while listening since the story is pretty cool as well. 

Actually, I generally only listen to that album when I actually can hear it in it’s entirety. One of my road trip favorites.


----------



## profwoot

RevDrucifer said:


> Well, when I first listened to that album I threw on headphones, laid down in bed and I don’t think I got back up until I heard it at least 3x in it’s entirety.
> 
> That said, it came out at the height of my DT fanboyism. But really, that album is best enjoyed in it’s entirety. Pretty sure I was reading the lyrics while listening since the story is pretty cool as well.


Ditto. Through SFAM I considered each DT album to be better than the last. Then when 6DOIT was only pretty good I started losing interest. A couple of the later ones are probably similarly good for someone new to DT, but they just sounded like more of the same to my DT-fatigued ears so I've barely listened to anything past ToT.


----------



## StevenC

You ever notice how Lars Ulrich could have played on Six Degrees and it would sound exactly the same? 

Mike is really lucky that album came out before St Anger.


----------



## Evan89

Sermo Lupi said:


> Brilliant, as usual!
> 
> Aside from that tab of Running with the Devil you did back in 2019, I can't see any others from Symphony X. Any plans to tackle more of their catalogue in the future?


No plans. There have been books for The Odyssey, Paradise Lost, and Iconoclast through Sheet Happens, though I was not the transcriber on them.


----------



## RevDrucifer

StevenC said:


> You ever notice how Lars Ulrich could have played on Six Degrees and it would sound exactly the same?
> 
> Mike is really lucky that album came out before St Anger.



No, I can’t say I have. 

Also- wut?


----------



## Evan89

Here are the rest of the tunes:


----------



## Lukhas

Seems Dream Theater has resorted to have record LaBrie help out live LaBrie on the older songs. That being said, live LaBrie isn't completely out of sorts in his mediums (even if he's out of range on his highs), even with the unfavourable festival-tier mix. Or at least, I've heard him being worse. He clearly has lost his range though. I don't think tuning down would solve the issue, but I still find odd that they don't consistently do so to help a bit. It sounded very much like the album's tuning to my ears.



...I'm also glad to see that Petrucci doesn't have any issues holing his absurd cargo of signature guitars. And I thought freight was an issue at the moment.

EDIT: Oh, scratch that. The further the gig progresses, the more helpless he is. He's barely signing at times on _Bridges in the Sky_.


----------



## AdamCook

Gotta love those DT mixes where JP is 3x louder than all other instruments.


----------



## nickgray

Lukhas said:


> He clearly has lost his range though


Lost range is the least of his problems. I mean, I'd unironically rather listen to Dave Mustaine signing a Dream Theater gig. It would legitimately sound better, and I'm not joking at all.


----------



## StevenC

nickgray said:


> Lost range is the least of his problems. I mean, I'd unironically rather listen to Dave Mustaine signing a Dream Theater gig. It would legitimately sound better, and I'm not joking at all.


I just wish he wouldn't talk at shows. He's not good at it.

"I learned that they Titanic was built here. They made Game of Thrones here, wasn't that a great fucking show?"

What?


----------



## AdamCook

Large portions of 6:00 have vocal tracks...not "backing vocals" but the lead vocal track clearly layered in at the same level as Labrie. It just sounds weird. Like a guy trying to sing along with the radio in his car and failing miserably.


----------



## KentBrockman

StevenC said:


> I just wish he wouldn't talk at shows. He's not good at it.
> 
> "I learned that they Titanic was built here. They made Game of Thrones here, wasn't that a great fucking show?"
> 
> What?


In Riverside in 2019:

"This place is called Riverside...where's the fucking river?!"


----------



## Lukhas

nickgray said:


> Lost range is the least of his problems. I mean, I'd unironically rather listen to Dave Mustaine signing a Dream Theater gig. It would legitimately sound better, and I'm not joking at all.


I wouldn't go that far; I wasn't exactly impressed with Mustaine at Hellfest either, even if I'm aware festivals are rough (and cancer, and age, and doing two things at once). But singing a duet with yourself... You remind the audience of what once was, it's rough. I think it was Axl Rose who was doing that at one point, wasn't he? Mustaine's pride wouldn't let him sing with backing tracks; he'd rather snarl through the gig. Aside from actually tuning the damn songs down all the time and not just on a gig by gig basis, DT is basically using every trick in the book to milk something out of LaBrie... and out of the band overall, judging by their latest effort.



Reminds me that I didn't actually listen to James' latest solo effort in its entirety. Or maybe I did but I don't remember, I probably should take a look.


----------



## mpexus

Lukhas said:


>



What a DRAG that must be to watch DT on Festivals this size... They are clearly not a Band for these type of Events.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Why John Petrucci thinks Mike Portnoy Dream Theater Reunion Speculation is 'Not Good for Anybody'

I'm surprised this wasn't posted yet. 

The Loudwire article is just a summary of an interview from the Eddie Trunk podcast. The precis: 

- Petrucci didn't want his and Portnoy's reunion to be misconstrued as opening the door for a DT reunion. 

- Petrucci called the incessant Portnoy-DT reunion talk 'toxic'. 

- Petrucci acknowledged the overwhelming amount of positive comments surrounding any interaction he shares between him and Portnoy. But he reinforced that Mangini's been in DT for 12 years now and reaffirmed his commitment to Mangini staying a part of DT. 

12 years, eh? Where's the time gone...

I don't think there's any surprises here. I listened to the rest of the interview and Portnoy and Petrucci get along as well as they always did. However, even with Portnoy patching over his relationship with LaBrie somewhat, there's still no discussion of a reunion, probably for fear of opening Pandora's box. 

There's another point in the interview where Portnoy is asked about attending his first DT show as an audience member, which happened just before the pandemic if I remember correctly. He makes it explicit that mending his relationship with Labrie was the only obstacle to him going to the show, as he hadn't spoken with him in 10 or 11 years but had been in projects with Petrucci and Rudess soon after leaving DT and sees Myung frequently as they live nearby one another. He mentions several times that it wasn't weird seeing DT or playing at the same festival as them in Rock in Rio recently, specifically saying that being around DT's fanbase and around DT's road crew felt like being 'home'.

Listening to Portnoy's answers, he sounds happy to leave behind the drama but would obviously rejoin DT if he could. I don't find Petrucci's perspective surprising, as he's speaking as a bandleader rather than a friend. Still, the whole situation seems a bit sad. 

I've been loving Portnoy's side projects more than the stuff DT's done lately, though, so in that sense I'm happy the two camps will remain separate for now.


----------



## ShredmasterD

wouldn't mind if DT did an all instrumental album.


----------



## Marked Man

ShredmasterD said:


> wouldn't mind if DT did an all instrumental album.



Between DT, LTE, and other projects, I'm not sure how many more riffs/jams these guys can even come up with. They've already played everything. They've been in the realm of AC/DC and Yngwie for sameness from album to album for years.



Sons of Apollo is very interesting because of Thal and Soto.


----------



## Marked Man

Sermo Lupi said:


> Why John Petrucci thinks Mike Portnoy Dream Theater Reunion Speculation is 'Not Good for Anybody'
> 
> I'm surprised this wasn't posted yet.
> 
> The Loudwire article is just a summary of an interview from the Eddie Trunk podcast. The precis:
> 
> - Petrucci didn't want his and Portnoy's reunion to be misconstrued as opening the door for a DT reunion.
> 
> - Petrucci called the incessant Portnoy-DT reunion talk 'toxic'.
> 
> - Petrucci acknowledged the overwhelming amount of positive comments surrounding any interaction he shares between him and Portnoy. But he reinforced that Mangini's been in DT for 12 years now and reaffirmed his commitment to Mangini staying a part of DT.
> 
> 12 years, eh? Where's the time gone...
> 
> I don't think there's any surprises here. I listened to the rest of the interview and Portnoy and Petrucci get along as well as they always did. However, even with Portnoy patching over his relationship with LaBrie somewhat, there's still no discussion of a reunion, probably for fear of opening Pandora's box.
> 
> There's another point in the interview where Portnoy is asked about attending his first DT show as an audience member, which happened just before the pandemic if I remember correctly. He makes it explicit that mending his relationship with Labrie was the only obstacle to him going to the show, as he hadn't spoken with him in 10 or 11 years but had been in projects with Petrucci and Rudess soon after leaving DT and sees Myung frequently as they live nearby one another. He mentions several times that it wasn't weird seeing DT or playing at the same festival as them in Rock in Rio recently, specifically saying that being around DT's fanbase and around DT's road crew felt like being 'home'.
> 
> Listening to Portnoy's answers, he sounds happy to leave behind the drama but would obviously rejoin DT if he could. I don't find Petrucci's perspective surprising, as he's speaking as a bandleader rather than a friend. Still, the whole situation seems a bit sad.
> 
> I've been loving Portnoy's side projects more than the stuff DT's done lately, though, so in that sense I'm happy the two camps will remain separate for now.



Portnoy was always the Rock N Roll Soul of DT. The others are bookish to the point of being professors and his influence has been missed, although I must say Mangini hit his stride by the 3rd album with DT and they are doing as well today as they could be with anyone playing drums.


----------



## KentBrockman

Marked Man said:


> Between DT, LTE, and other projects, I'm not sure how many more riffs/jams these guys can even come up with. They've already played everything. They've been in the realm of AC/DC and Yngwie for sameness from album to album for years.
> 
> 
> 
> Sons of Apollo is very interesting because of Thal and Soto.


To be fair, that’s one of the many things I like about DT. I generally know what I’m getting (the notable exception being The Astonishing). The consistency is why there are only a couple of albums out of many that I don’t like


----------



## bostjan

Sermo Lupi said:


> Why John Petrucci thinks Mike Portnoy Dream Theater Reunion Speculation is 'Not Good for Anybody'
> 
> I'm surprised this wasn't posted yet.
> 
> The Loudwire article is just a summary of an interview from the Eddie Trunk podcast. The precis:
> 
> - Petrucci didn't want his and Portnoy's reunion to be misconstrued as opening the door for a DT reunion.
> 
> - Petrucci called the incessant Portnoy-DT reunion talk 'toxic'.
> 
> - Petrucci acknowledged the overwhelming amount of positive comments surrounding any interaction he shares between him and Portnoy. But he reinforced that Mangini's been in DT for 12 years now and reaffirmed his commitment to Mangini staying a part of DT.
> 
> 12 years, eh? Where's the time gone...
> 
> I don't think there's any surprises here. I listened to the rest of the interview and Portnoy and Petrucci get along as well as they always did. However, even with Portnoy patching over his relationship with LaBrie somewhat, there's still no discussion of a reunion, probably for fear of opening Pandora's box.
> 
> There's another point in the interview where Portnoy is asked about attending his first DT show as an audience member, which happened just before the pandemic if I remember correctly. He makes it explicit that mending his relationship with Labrie was the only obstacle to him going to the show, as he hadn't spoken with him in 10 or 11 years but had been in projects with Petrucci and Rudess soon after leaving DT and sees Myung frequently as they live nearby one another. He mentions several times that it wasn't weird seeing DT or playing at the same festival as them in Rock in Rio recently, specifically saying that being around DT's fanbase and around DT's road crew felt like being 'home'.
> 
> Listening to Portnoy's answers, he sounds happy to leave behind the drama but would obviously rejoin DT if he could. I don't find Petrucci's perspective surprising, as he's speaking as a bandleader rather than a friend. Still, the whole situation seems a bit sad.
> 
> I've been loving Portnoy's side projects more than the stuff DT's done lately, though, so in that sense I'm happy the two camps will remain separate for now.


If there is such a thing as parallel universes, I imagine that this is the only universe where LaBrie is still in DT and Portnoy is out. 

With the several tiny interactions I've had with the guys in DT over the years (consisting of shouting at them at shows, mostly), I was always puzzled when I heard horror stories from fans who met them and were treated poorly. But I think I understand it now. As a guitarists and sometimes drummer, my focus has pretty much always been on JP and MP. Myung has always been skittish and quiet. Their keyboardists over the years never seemed to have abrasive personalities. LaBrie is the only one who ever seems to be a bit rough, but he comes off to me as one of those, well, I don't know how to describe it. Just like he strikes me as being "difficult." Like, most people are fun to be around, and then other people are nice enough, but yet when they are around, no one has a great time, and it boils more or less down to a complex of several small but mildly abrasive quirks. Like, for instance, taking yourself just a little too seriously, not responding well to criticism, but, maybe more importantly just not really ever loosening up or ever contributing anything light and enjoyable to a conversation. I don't know about everyone, but in my case, I don't usually pick up on it until I end up kind of stuck in a situation with the person, like a long car ride or a conversation where it'd be awkward to just nope out. I think it's maybe more common with musicians than with just random people you encounter in general.


----------



## AMOS

KentBrockman said:


> To be fair, that’s one of the many things I like about DT. I generally know what I’m getting (the notable exception being The Astonishing). The consistency is why there are only a couple of albums out of many that I don’t like


The Astonishing doesn't get enough credit. Lots of fans say "blah blah this album sounds like the same old Dream Theater" well The Astonishing was something that wasn't same old Dream Theater. It lacked a lot of the high speed intricate passages we're used to seeing, but it was different.


----------



## RevDrucifer

IDGAF what Petrucci says; Portnoy will end up back in Dream Theater. 

OF COURSE he’s going to say “No, not happening”. Even the slightest speculation that it was a possibility would be blown way over proportion by the fans, as evident by the tons of messages they got when they started posting pics together. It’d be like telling a group of friends while you’re engaged “Well, the possibility is there that I can end up with another woman”, ya know?

Both Petrucci and Portnoy developed their sound after years of playing together. I was watching a recent Petrucci set and the thing that stood out the most to me was their individual tones and how well they work together. The bloom from Petrucci’s tones is dead on with the way Portnoy hits the drums and the drums open up a bit after that initial attack, specifically the kick drum. They’re fucking made to play with each other. They spent 25 years learning how to become professional musicians playing off each other, it’s part of their DNA at this point. 

If he re-joined the band, they’d have all the new fans lined up to see it as well as every single fan who jumped off when Mangini joined (look at the Blabbermouth comments to see how many that actually is). I certainly stopped paying attention nearly as much when it happened and Distance Over Time has been the only album I’ve dug with Mangini on it. 

IMO, it’s a no-brainer. Might not happen now, but I’d be EXTREMELY surprised if it doesn’t happen within the next decade.


----------



## bostjan

Well, you may be right. I think that there's a fine line to walk between boring people with the same riffs and song ideas on one side and changing the direction of the band on the other side.

If we are being honest, _Images and Words_ is, by far, their most "different" album. They sound like a totally different band on that album than they do on the rest. Even their debut album, with a different singer, at least to me, sounds more akin to DT nowadays than I&W. And I love I&W, but it's more, umm, eclectic. They haven't done any other songs like "Another Day" or "Surrounded." "Learning to Live" is an awesome song, but way more a prog song with elements of metal than a prog metal song, if you know what I mean. Even "Pull Me Under" is pretty unlike their more current stuff. I think it's more or less that the entire album just lacks any of that sort of darkness that they incorporated on _Awake_ and haven't completely let go of since.

_The Astonishing_, for all of its different direction, still doesn't excite me. And, they've all been doing the same sorts of things so long now, that I bet they could release a polka album, and it's still somehow sound the same. Or maybe it's me, and I'm just burnt out. I used to be their #1 fan, too. I have one tattoo on my entire body and it's DT-related.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

bostjan said:


> LaBrie is the only one who ever seems to be a bit rough, but he comes off to me as one of those, well, I don't know how to describe it. Just like he strikes me as being "difficult." Like, most people are fun to be around, and then other people are nice enough, but yet when they are around, no one has a great time, and it boils more or less down to a complex of several small but mildly abrasive quirks. Like, for instance, taking yourself just a little too seriously, not responding well to criticism, but, maybe more importantly just not really ever loosening up or ever contributing anything light and enjoyable to a conversation.



I don't think it's unfair to call LaBrie a diva of sorts. He's always been sensitive about criticism, both from the band and from fans. Beyond criticism, he seems a bit melancholic in how he approaches everything--even his past, considering it's LaBrie himself who has chosen to weave a narrative about his career that is framed in terms of struggle (i.e. of overcoming damage to his voice, of not enjoying recording albums for most of Dream Theater's prime, and so on). 

I don't doubt Portnoy was a relentless bandleader, in ways that seemed to affect LaBrie more than others. Yet a lot of LaBrie's beef with Portnoy (if you can call it that) seemed to stem from his own personality. 



RevDrucifer said:


> IDGAF what Petrucci says; Portnoy will end up back in Dream Theater.
> 
> IMO, it’s a no-brainer. Might not happen now, but I’d be EXTREMELY surprised if it doesn’t happen within the next decade.



If it'll happen, it better be sooner than a decade from now. Being that 12 years have passed already (nearly 14 years since the last album release), another 10 years would mark nearly 25 years of Portnoy not being in the band, which is as long as he was in it. 

Portnoy and Petrucci are both 55, the time is now or never. If it happened tomorrow, maybe we get 2 more DT albums with Portnoy behind the set. I don't know when they'll hang 'em up, but I'm not expecting DT to stick around forever. Having to wait for a reunion until all the members are sexagenarians is criminal.


----------



## RevDrucifer

bostjan said:


> _The Astonishing_, for all of its different direction, still doesn't excite me. And, they've all been doing the same sorts of things so long now, that I bet they could release a polka album, and it's still somehow sound the same. Or maybe it's me, and I'm just burnt out. I used to be their #1 fan, too. I have one tattoo on my entire body and it's DT-related.



This is the only DT album I‘ve never listened to all the way through, which makes 16-year old me perplexed. I think I gave it about 10 minutes when it first came out and shut it off, tried again a couple years later and still couldn’t do it. I don’t even care to hear the rest of the album.


----------



## wankerness

The Astonishing was the first DT album since Octavarium that I willingly listened to all the way through more than once, and unlike Octavarium, I didn't dislike it. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


----------



## mpexus

Im a minority of course but never caring at all for DT on their time I only start listening to them after Portnoy left and then going back and listen to their old stuff... I prefer their new material even though to me it sounds a bit of same in every album. 
Yet with their new material I manage to not be annoyed to death by Labrie singing, when I do I just listen to their instrumental only albums


----------



## KentBrockman

A lot of people seem to REALLY dislike Labrie. I actually quite like his voice. I think it sounds good (especially considering his food poisoning incident) and it’s a key element of the band’s sound. With that said, he does not sound that good live…but I am mainly seeing DT live for the other musicians mainly for JP and Mike.

On another note, I think The Astonishing’s concept was fine* but executed badly. There were just way too many songs, a lot of which were ballads and not hugely interesting to me. There are a number of songs that I do like and have put on some of my DT playlists including The Gift of Music, Our New World, A New Beginning, and A Saviour in the Square.

The other part is that this is not a particularly heavy album. Not sure about other people, but I was hoping for something that wasn’t so light.

*I mean, the story is quite silly but I am not too fussed about that. Their most highly-praised album is about a guy who is a reincarnated dead woman who then gets killed by her reincarnated boyfriend that happens to be the guy’s therapist. And that silliness did not stop it from becoming one of my favourite albums…


----------



## RadoncROCKs

KentBrockman said:


> *I mean, the story is quite silly but I am not too fussed about that. Their most highly-praised album is about a guy who is a reincarnated dead woman who then gets killed by her reincarnated boyfriend that happens to be the guy’s therapist. And that silliness did not stop it from becoming one of my favourite albums…



*clutches pearls*

Spoilers!!!

Labrie doesn't bother me as much as others, I really enjoy his solo stuff where it seems he stays more within his natural range. Plus Marco Sfogli and Matt Guillory.
He is not very good live and hasn't been since the 90s. He does seem to take himself too seriously, at this point even if he would lighten up his reputation is set in stone.

I've seen DT live more than any other band and they are still fun.


----------



## Xiphos68

This reunion tour could be the sickest thing they ever did if they did it right. 

Have Portnoy or Mangini open the set or switch it every night. For the Encore, bring them both and ensue greatness. 

They would sell-out probably every show. It blows my mind how much Dream Theater packs out the venues they do now. 
As a fan, it's heart-warming.


----------



## Lax

I don't think portnoy will ever dt again, I don't think labrie and myung want it, and his playing went downhill from systematic chaos and onwards.


----------



## ShredmasterD

new DT stuff posted on twitter


----------



## Andromalia

RevDrucifer said:


> IDGAF what Petrucci says; Portnoy will end up back in Dream Theater.


They can pull a Maiden or Helloween and endup with two drummers. 
"Try to cover that, kids"


----------



## NexusMT

Andromalia said:


> They can pull a Maiden or Helloween and endup with two drummers.
> "Try to cover that, kids"


 
/me making thoughts on Mangini and Portnoy playing "A Nightmare to Remember" together live.


----------



## Matt08642

ShredmasterD said:


> new DT stuff posted on twitter
> View attachment 118037



These releases piss me off so much trying to find DT albums on Spotify. Doesn't help they all have Magic Eye looking covers lol


----------

