# Fanned fret 7 with a trem ?



## lewbob (Jan 1, 2010)

I have seen some fanned fret guitars around now that have the parallel section as the bridge on the guitar ! Does this mean it would be totally feasible to have a fanned fret 7 string with a straight tremolo on it ?

What are the advantages of having the Fret parallel at the 7th, 9th or 12th fret over the bridge ? And if a no on the bridge does anybody know if Kahler still make the fanned fret 7 string bridge ? 

Cheers


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## xtrustisyoursx (Jan 1, 2010)

Having a multiscale with a straight bridge means that all the fan needs to begin at the nut. You can imagine how any substantial fan would make playing near the nut quite odd. That being said, a 7 with like a 1" fan would probably not be too extreme for that purpose.


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## xtrustisyoursx (Jan 1, 2010)

You can use this FretFind 2-D to get an idea of how it would look.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 1, 2010)

Kahler can also make a fanned fret trem, but I hear it kind of sucks and has a bunch of issues that the guitar basically needs to be built around. Mike Sherman built a guitar with one on it.


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## Andrew_B (Jan 2, 2010)

lewbob said:


> I have seen some fanned fret guitars around now that have the parallel section as the bridge on the guitar !


 

pics


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## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2010)

^^Yeah, I'd like to see some, too. Although I did find this rather homely one after a brief google search:
BV Woodworks Fanned Fret Electric Guitar | eLUTHERIE.org

EDIT: Now that I think about it, why couldn't you put the normal fanned individual saddle bridge pieces on a plate that would be diagonal along the back edge (right along with the saddle pieces) and straight up and down at the fulcrum point? Then you could use a regular fanned model, right? Or would that idea not work at all?


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## Andrew_B (Jan 2, 2010)

hmmm interesting....

i will have to look into this

back on topic, i see a fanned trem being a PITA


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## vansinn (Jan 2, 2010)

Fanned whammies are a bitch to design. No matter which type of concept I've looked into, it always boils down to how to make an arrangement that'll stretch the strings equally.

The problem is that, due to the bearing- or pivoting mechanism, the whammy motion always ends up being perpendicular to the strings, which means means that, as the bridge/sadles needs to be angled relative to the strings, the lower pitched strings will have less distance between saddle and whatever they attach to than the higher, and thus you end up with uneven tension/slack when operating the whammy.

Angling the bearing/pivot would solve this, but only to leave the strings also going angled from saddles to mount point; clearly not exactly good either.

The Kahler desighn on paper looks like a neat candidate for a fanned whammy, given the use of a cam to actuate the strings between two fixed points (saddle and stringmount), but this also ends up the same: different string lengths between each saddle and the cam.

Maybe a pivoting FR type, with the two posts simply angled to fit the fanning, and with custom saddles with a deeper groove to keep strings in the groove when they're going slightly angled off the saddle, would work. At least there's s very short and even distance from saddles to stringmount.

Had Leo Fender still lived, he would probably look at it but for a few minutes and simply bend some metal strips a Bit differently from that amazingly simple standard Fender whammy  Sometimes simplicity rules.. and then again, it would likely spur a new breed of Fender whammy haters, as in "..damned fanned fender bender.."


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## pink freud (Jan 2, 2010)

Somebody should make a Steinberger Trans-Fan trem. The Trans trem already takes string tensions into account.


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## lewbob (Jan 2, 2010)

Andrew_B said:


> pics



ive only seen two or 3 one being that one thats been posted and search fanned fret on here and somebody made one and just searching the net ive seen one or two more !

and on the issue of strings tension why wouldn't a fanned floyd rose style bridge work if it was staggered like a standard fanned fret bridge and the two pivot post were put onto a angle i am sure a place could machine something like this ?

or am i really just going to have to stick with no tremolo on a fanned fret guitar ??


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## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2010)

lewbob said:


> and on the issue of strings tension why wouldn't a fanned floyd rose style bridge work if it was staggered like a standard fanned fret bridge and the two pivot post were put onto a angle i am sure a place could machine something like this ?
> 
> or am i really just going to have to stick with no tremolo on a fanned fret guitar ??



No, I think vansinn's idea, like you mentioned above, with staggered studs, would work. Obviously it'll be a one off, but if you could come up with a way to machine it, I think that would answer the string tension issue, and if it's fulcrum style, it would keep it pretty simple. I'll bet the biggest challenge isn't the staggering of the pole pieces, but the spring tensioning on the backside.


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## lewbob (Jan 2, 2010)

yea i get the whole spring tension thing wouldnt the claw at the back of the guitar also have to be angled so there is more tension on the bass side over the treble side ?


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## dpm (Jan 2, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> No, I think vansinn's idea, like you mentioned above, with staggered studs, would work. Obviously it'll be a one off, but if you could come up with a way to machine it, I think that would answer the string tension issue, and if it's fulcrum style, it would keep it pretty simple. I'll bet the biggest challenge isn't the staggering of the pole pieces, but the spring tensioning on the backside.



I'll be machining exactly this kind of thing for a guitar I'm making for myself, the only problem is that it won't be ready for quite some time as I've got a lot of other work to finish first. I'd assumed for ages that lateral movement due to the angle would be a problem so never pursued the idea, then I did some cad drawings a couple of weeks back and it looks like being so little that it's a non-issue. The spring tensioning is a matter of machining an angled spring claw, kind of a wedge shape rather than the usual rectangle.


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## lewbob (Jan 2, 2010)

dpm said:


> I'll be machining exactly this kind of thing for a guitar I'm making for myself, the only problem is that it won't be ready for quite some time as I've got a lot of other work to finish first. I'd assumed for ages that lateral movement due to the angle would be a problem so never pursued the idea, then I did some cad drawings a couple of weeks back and it looks like being so little that it's a non-issue. The spring tensioning is a matter of machining an angled spring claw, kind of a wedge shape rather than the usual rectangle.




any chance of hitting me up with those cad drawings ? i think i will have chance to get ideas machined and try some stuff out as i really want to get a fanned fret 7 custom built but i dont want to lose the use of a tremolo at all


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## Winspear (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm totally rooting for a trem on my future 8 fanned also...
I guess it's totally fine depending how much fan you want, to keep the bridge straight. I don't think I'd want more than 1 inch at the nut, so that means a 1 inch fan difference with a straight bridge. 



lewbob said:


> What are the advantages of having the Fret parallel at the 7th, 9th or 12th fret over the bridge ?


Purely how you want it to feel. The higher the straight fret, the straighter the bridge, and the more angled the nut. I'm guessing you can go with more of an angle on the nut if your not into open chords. Those numbers you listed seem ideal for a balance between lead and rhythm. On my design I'm planning to have the straight fret exactly halfway between the nut and fret 24 (this works out at about fret 8.3) resulting in the same angle at the nut and 24th fret, and a slightly steeper angle at the bridge.
Someone already linked Fretfind2D, which I used to make full scale printouts on card to air guitar with and fine tune my angles.



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Kahler can also make a fanned fret trem, but I hear it kind of sucks and has a bunch of issues that the guitar basically needs to be built around. Mike Sherman built a guitar with one on it.


Any more info on that dude? I've seen the guitar but couldn't find much on it. All I heard is that the large distance between the arm connection and the high E saddle made it hard to bend the pitch of the high strings very far. Makes sense, but couldn't this be fixed by simply drilling the arm hole closer to the saddle?
Curious to hear what this 'bunch of issues' were, as I still have my hopes up to go with Kahler for an 8 string with approx 1.4" of fan at the bridge. 

Also, would it not be possible to fan a fair amount (up to an inch on some designs?) with current existing tremolos intonation adjustment? My RG7321 (non trem) has a good quater inch difference for it to be intonated correctly.


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## vansinn (Jan 2, 2010)

EtherealEntity said:


> I'm totally rooting for a trem on my future 8 fanned also...
> ...snipped...
> Any more info on that dude? [Mike's fanned Kahler build]
> ..I still have my hopes up to go with Kahler for an 8 string with approx 1.4" of fan at the bridge.
> ...



I previously posted Kahler's answer to the maximum fanning (can't locate the thread now):
_(Josh: ) The maximum difference in the witness point of the first string to the witness point of the lowest string is 1.600". Please also remember that you will have additional compensation as the nut will be angled as well.
That dimension depends on the scale lengths and the number of strings._



> Originally Posted by Hollowway
> No, I think vansinn's idea, like you mentioned above, with staggered studs, would work. Obviously it'll be a one off, but if you could come up with a way to machine it, I think that would answer the string tension issue, and if it's fulcrum style, it would keep it pretty simple. I'll bet the biggest challenge isn't the staggering of the pole pieces, but the spring tensioning on the backside.





dpm said:


> I'll be machining exactly this kind of thing for a guitar I'm making for myself, the only problem is that it won't be ready for quite some time as I've got a lot of other work to finish first. I'd assumed for ages that lateral movement due to the angle would be a problem so never pursued the idea, then I did some cad drawings a couple of weeks back and it looks like being so little that it's a non-issue. The spring tensioning is a matter of machining an angled spring claw, kind of a wedge shape rather than the usual rectangle.



Hehe.. I've been thinking about such lateral movements before and also discarted the ide as likely not working, simply because having strings angle away from a direct line with the neck seemed.. mmnn.. unnatural, and technically not sane.
However, for a pivoting type, with strings fixed from saddle to mount, it might easily work.
For any design based on strings over rollers, I think it won't be good. Pity, as I can't make pivoting trems work with palmmuting.


Dan, not so long ago, I wanted to relocate to Brisbane. Since we tend to think along the same lines, maybe I should


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## Andrew_B (Jan 2, 2010)

vansinn said:


> Had Leo Fender still lived, he would probably look at it but for a few minutes and simply bend some metal strips a Bit differently from that amazingly simple standard Fender whammy  Sometimes simplicity rules.. and then again, it would likely spur a new breed of Fender whammy haters, as in "..damned fanned fender bender.."


 
hmmm... am i mistaken or HAS novax made replacement fanned necks for both strats and teles over the years?



lewbob said:


> ive only seen two or 3 one being that one thats been posted and search fanned fret on here and somebody made one and just searching the net ive seen one or two more !
> 
> and on the issue of strings tension why wouldn't a fanned floyd rose style bridge work if it was staggered like a standard fanned fret bridge and the two pivot post were put onto a angle i am sure a place could machine something like this ?
> 
> or am i really just going to have to stick with no tremolo on a fanned fret guitar ??


 
iv seen a conklin floating around the net that is an 8, with the 4 middle strings set up asa trem and the outer 4 hardtail..





dpm said:


> I'll be machining exactly this kind of thing for a guitar I'm making for myself, the only problem is that it won't be ready for quite some time as I've got a lot of other work to finish first. I'd assumed for ages that lateral movement due to the angle would be a problem so never pursued the idea, then I did some cad drawings a couple of weeks back and it looks like being so little that it's a non-issue. The spring tensioning is a matter of machining an angled spring claw, kind of a wedge shape rather than the usual rectangle.


 
i look foward to seeing this ^
good luck dan


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 2, 2010)

EtherealEntity said:


> Any more info on that dude? I've seen the guitar but couldn't find much on it. All I heard is that the large distance between the arm connection and the high E saddle made it hard to bend the pitch of the high strings very far. Makes sense, but couldn't this be fixed by simply drilling the arm hole closer to the saddle?
> Curious to hear what this 'bunch of issues' were, as I still have my hopes up to go with Kahler for an 8 string with approx 1.4" of fan at the bridge.



Mr Sherman - another awesome guitar

Maybe "a bunch of" was exaggerating since I hadn't read the thread in a long time. Either way, it sounds like a pain in the ass from the description of it.


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## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah but somewhere the owner of that guitar talked about the trem. I just can't remember who the heck it is so I could search for it. And I think he also pointed out some problems with it. Anyone remember who has it?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 2, 2010)

Well, if anything, lock the trem if it's a hybrid, put some foam underneath the cam, and use it as a double locking fixed bridge for tuning stability on a fanned fret guitar.

Oh shit, actually it doesn't have a locking nut, oops


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## Winspear (Jan 3, 2010)

vansinn said:


> I previously posted Kahler's answer to the maximum fanning (can't locate the thread now):
> _(Josh: ) The maximum difference in the witness point of the first string to the witness point of the lowest string is 1.600". Please also remember that you will have additional compensation as the nut will be angled as well.
> That dimension depends on the scale lengths and the number of strings._


Aye I think that was in Cool's build thread for the guitar on here. Used it to help my design 0.85" nut 1.4" bridge



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Mr Sherman - another awesome guitar
> Maybe "a bunch of" was exaggerating since I hadn't read the thread in a long time. Either way, it sounds like a pain in the ass from the description of it.



Thanks! Good to see some other info on it, but indeed..Maybe I'll have to rethink 
What does he mean by overtone problem? (I know what overtones ARE, but can't see why this guitar would cause that)



Hollowway said:


> Yeah but somewhere the owner of that guitar talked about the trem. I just can't remember who the heck it is so I could search for it. And I think he also pointed out some problems with it. Anyone remember who has it?


Cool711. Havn't been able to find him himself talking about it either.


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## vansinn (Jan 3, 2010)

EtherealEntity said:


> What does he mean by overtone problem? (I know what overtones ARE, but can't see why this guitar would cause that)



I'm sure it's simply the same type of sympathetic ringing as can sometimes be witnessed with longish stringlength between nut and tuner on the headstock, which makes some fit a piece of foam to stop it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 3, 2010)

Andrew_B said:


> hmmm... am i mistaken or HAS novax made replacement fanned necks for both strats and teles over the years?


 


Novax Guitars: Parts/Accessories: Guitar Necks



Andrew_B said:


> iv seen a conklin floating around the net that is an 8, with the 4 middle strings set up asa trem and the outer 4 hardtail..


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## vansinn (Jan 3, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Mr Sherman - another awesome guitar
> 
> Maybe "a bunch of" was exaggerating since I hadn't read the thread in a long time. Either way, it sounds like a pain in the ass from the description of it.



Read Mike's post #8 comments about possibly overcoming the issue of distance and string angle by recessing the treble side of the whole assembly a Bit.
This allows lifting those saddles a Bit more, which might help equalizing the difference in pitch change when operating the whammy 
A steeper string angle should provide more tension on the strings passing over/under, and may also help on the not-stay in tune string bending issue.. -just loose ideas..

@Holloway: you could try shimming-up the left/low side of your Kahler. This will require lowerng the low side saddles, and may work in the same direction as doing the opposite on the high side, i.e. provide a small equalization of the pitch diffs, in order to give you an idea about what may be done more long term..

Maybe this whole Kahler issue trip is a mix of two things:
1. Just slightly improper installs on some instruments, resulting in too little string angle over the rollersaddles and under the cam.
2. The cam itself not 'deep' enough, and maybe really requiring an asymmetric profile.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 3, 2010)

vansinn said:


> I'm sure it's simply the same type of sympathetic ringing as can sometimes be witnessed with longish stringlength between nut and tuner on the headstock, which makes some fit a piece of foam to stop it.



But on a trem, you couldn't put foam on it (between the string and the cam) since that would absolutely destroy ANY tuning stability whatsoever and make the trem useless


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## Hollowway (Jan 3, 2010)

vansinn said:


> @Holloway: you could try shimming-up the left/low side of your Kahler. This will require lowerng the low side saddles, and may work in the same direction as doing the opposite on the high side, i.e. provide a small equalization of the pitch diffs, in order to give you an idea about what may be done more long term..


Yeah, I tried raising and lowering the rollers but that doesn't have any effect. I think that the issue is that the cam itself pushing the lower strings up as they crest it (due to their thickness) whereas the thinner strings pretty much go almost straight across it (i.e. less of a crest). So when the bar is pressed down, the higher strings are loosened by the ball end approaching the nut (decreasing the horizontal distance) but also by the ball part coming up toward the top of the crest of the cam (vertical). On the lighter strings the horizontal movement is roughly the same, but the vertical portion is much much less.

As an experiment I tried putting a cut off ball end in the high E saddle, then put the string on top of that so that the cam to saddle length was increased, hoping to make up the difference by adding horizontal length. But it didn't work. And on further thought, since the cam movement didn't change, that extra bit of length didn't do a damn thing. 

So what you had said before, about having an asymmetric cam, where the height of the cam was greater on the thin strings, would seem to be the right solution. Obviously you couldn't have the string rest on the cam itself (i.e. the roller on the high strings needs to be sufficiently high) but that shouldn't be much of a problem in a properly set up guitar. Not sure why Kahler themselves don't address this issue, because it would make me, for one, a Helluva lot happier!


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## Cool711 (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey guys, 
What was the question about the trem?


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## lewbob (Jan 8, 2010)

i checked with kahler and they said that can do a fanned fret 7 trem for $500 i assume this really is my only option at this time ?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 8, 2010)

Cool711 said:


> Hey guys,
> What was the question about the trem?



How's it perform? Would you recommend it to other folks looking at doing something similar?


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