# What does the BBE sonic maximizer actually do to your signal?



## Bearitone (Oct 20, 2016)

Is it basically just an EQ pedal? Where two knobs adjust a set of fixed frequency bands in a fixed way?

I'm trying to figure out if I'd rather have this, or just get another MXR 10 Band EQ.

I currently use an MXR 10 Band in my effects loop and figured having one out front might give me the same effect as the BBE Sonic Maximizer but, with more control. Is this the case?


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Oct 20, 2016)

The sonic maximizer is basically a two band eq. One low and one high frequency, pretty much scoops out all the life from your sound IMO. 

I think you'd be better off with a Boss GE-7, that way you have more flexibility and a different choice in frequencies from your existing 10-band eq.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2016)

from what Ive read, it works well on a PA after everything or just on drums/keys/vocals individually to add a sparkle/exciter type sound but is a bit of a no-no for guitars.

A eq pedal where your actually in control of the frequencies and the boost/cut, is likely far more use-able.


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## thraxil (Oct 20, 2016)

It does... controversial... things to your signal. There are some strong opinions out there on sonic maximizers.

According to BBE's documentation: "&#65532;First, it adjusts the phase relationships between the low, mid and high frequencies through adding progressively longer delay times to lower frequencies, creating a kind of mirror curve to neutralize the effect of loudspeaker phase distortion. Second, the Sonic Maximizer augments higher and lower frequencies as loudspeakers tend to be less efficient in their extreme treble and bass ranges. The end result is a dynamic, program-driven restoration which reveals more of the natural texture and detail in the sound without causing fatigue that is often associated with exciter effects, psychoacoustic processors or excessive use of equalizers."

I'm not entirely clear exactly what it's doing in terms of phase adjustment and whether it actually does anything noticeable or if it's purely smoke and mirrors placebo effect. If anyone has some good resources that actually test that aspect (like, with lab frequency generators and oscilloscopes), I'd love to see them.

The "augments higher and lower frequencies" is, as everyone points out, just another way of saying "scoop the mids". This is definitely the most noticeable effect, especially if you are using it on a guitar and if you use anything more than very subtle settings.

Anytime you're scooping mids, it tends to sound great playing by yourself in your bedroom, but gets you buried in a mix once you're playing with other instruments.

If you do want to scoop mids, get a nice EQ instead.

In my experience, sonic maximizers *mostly* do more harm than good in a guitar signal chain, especially if you're starting with a decent amp. Here and there, I've found a cheap amp or digital setup that the BBE actually improved the sound a bit.

There are also claims that the Sonic Stomp at least, in bypass mode muffles your sound. So when you turn it on, it "magically" makes everything sound better. It's a fairly serious accusation, but I have never tested it myself (I had a rackmount one, but it got patched in or out with a patchbay, so I was never really running it in bypass).


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## laxu (Oct 20, 2016)

The trend seems to be that everyone who buys a BBE for guitar use ends up selling it.


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## vick1000 (Oct 20, 2016)

Oh, Dear God, not this again?

It was never intended for guitar, people. It's for FR/FR signals, as in the whole mix. It's supposedly, essentailly just a crossover control. Allowing you to sepereate highs and lows into two signals, filter them, and remerge them.

They are a carry over from the studios in the '70s, when they were used to expand frequecies. Same thing as the Aphex Exiters. They do help a bit with acoustic preamps.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2016)

vick1000 said:


> Oh, Dear God, not this again?
> 
> It was never intended for guitar, people. It's for FR/FR signals, as in the whole mix. It's supposedly, essentailly just a crossover control. Allowing you to sepereate highs and lows into two signals, filter them, and remerge them.
> 
> They are a carry over from the studios in the '70s, when they were used to expand frequecies. Same thing as the Aphex Exiters. They do help a bit with acoustic preamps.



you say that and whilst most of us know that and agree, they (BBE) did make a "sonic stomp" guitar pedal....so even they must think it works for guitar now?


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## rokket2005 (Oct 20, 2016)

I think it's less that they think it works for guitar, and more that they realized kids were using them for guitar and decided to make a quick buck.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 20, 2016)

its a mid-scoop pedal


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## purpledc (Oct 20, 2016)

I hate maximizers. They are a neat little trick if you are bored and are a bedroom player. They tweak the eq in a way that to me resembles scooping mids. This can be addicting as it sounds cool when you are in a bedroom playing with yourself but in a band setting its a surefire way to get lost in the mix. I don't even like eq pedals. Mainly because I abuse them. I cant separate what I know I should do (slightly boost mids or at least not reduce them) and what my ear wants to hear (super scooped stupidness). To me a maximizer is like a drug. While the initial effect seems fun and exciting its really doing more damage than it is good.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2016)

It's snake oil.

Every single technical explanation I've seen about how great the thing is reverts quickly into handwaving and bogus science. Whatever it does, it doesn't do the way that is claimed. Even if you could phase align different frequencies, which you can't, the auditory effect would be negligible to the human ear.

Here is the data sheet for the "brain" of the BBE: http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/7288/NJRC/NJM2150AD.html

It goes on a circuit board that really looks like just a crossover. And it is apparent from the data sheet, that the chip acts as an EQ, not a phase adjuster. Keep in mind that, too, this is not a digital signal processing device, it's an analogue device, so before you get too carried away believing anything fancy about what it can see or do with an audio signal waveform, it can't. It's a crossover with an EQ.

I think the discussion would be better served to focus on more empirical evidence: does your signal sound better or worse with this device? I see no problem with using an EQ/Crossover on your guitar, but I wouldn't expect a whole lot of a difference.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 20, 2016)

As much as it sucks, one of my favorite clean tones involves a Roland JC120 with a Sonic Maximizer.


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## Dawn of the Shred (Oct 20, 2016)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> The sonic maximizer is basically a two band eq. One low and one high frequency, pretty much scoops out all the life from your sound IMO.
> 
> I think you'd be better off with a Boss GE-7, that way you have more flexibility and a different choice in frequencies from your existing 10-band eq.



Truth!!! 100% agree with TWAT


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## Bearitone (Oct 20, 2016)

Alright I'm just going to go with another 10 band EQ.
The controversy around the pedal is enough for me I not trust it.

Jeezo, this means when I actually have a full stereo rig going I'll have 3 EQ pedals on my board. 
 one before the two preamps and one after each preamp


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## bnzboy (Oct 20, 2016)

lol I remember artists using this and seeing magazine ads all the time. now, not so much.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Oct 20, 2016)

I had an old 442-A in my fridge rack back in the 90's.

It's great on cleans, but I didn't care for what it did to my crunches, so I only used it on cleans.


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## wakjob (Oct 20, 2016)

The Sonic minimizer is a god awful device for distorted guitar.


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## purpledc (Oct 20, 2016)

But according to misha it goes djent. Shouldn't it have its own house of worship by default?


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## feraledge (Oct 21, 2016)

bostjan said:


> It's snake oil.
> Every single technical explanation I've seen about how great the thing is reverts quickly into handwaving and bogus science. Whatever it does, it doesn't do the way that is claimed. Even if you could phase align different frequencies, which you can't, the auditory effect would be negligible to the human ear.



Explanations be damned, have you actually used one? Mid-scooping isn't as popular now, so BBEs aren't as popular now. But that doesn't mean they don't work. I explained it as making it sound like the frequencies are split so that it doesn't feel like everything is coming out of the center of the speaker, the highs and lows are more pronounced. That's the effect at least. 
If you like a scoop, you'll love the BBE. I toured for years and we often didn't have a bassist, but had two guitars both of us using sonic maximizers. It sounded great! The problem is that if you're playing clubs and things like that, the effect is kind of lost. But if you're playing in a room where people hear what you're hearing, then we always got compliments on the tone. 
Personally, my tastes have changed a lot since and I've found a more organic sounding sweet spot (5153 + passives, no boost, no additional EQ). No question, having the mids there help the guitar cut better. But all of us have heard, seen and loved the guitar tone of bands that used sonic maximizers. 
What they do is cool, it just doesn't suit everyone. But they do it well. I haven't seen an EQ that does exactly the same.


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## bostjan (Oct 21, 2016)

Yes I have tried one in my rig, but it was years and years ago, and no, I didn't care for it.

I'm not trying to rag on how it sounds, but the "science" behind how it works is absolute bull.....


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## prlgmnr (Oct 21, 2016)

feraledge said:


> t it doesn't feel like everything is coming out of the center of the speaker



That's a good one.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Oct 21, 2016)

It is like hooking up with that super hot girl from the bar, when you were trashed...Then waking up the next day only to see that you brought home a giraffe.


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## marcwormjim (Oct 21, 2016)

You, sir, just added an achievement to my bucket-list.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Oct 24, 2016)

I have a BBE and used to use it all the time. Like others have said, it does sound pretty cool by yourself. Completely buried my guitar in a band mix and caused many a volume war in a couple bands I was in years ago. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> As much as it sucks, one of my favorite clean tones involves a Roland JC120 with a Sonic Maximizer.



They do sound *very* cool with a clean tone. I'll hook mine up every once in a while when I'm just playing clean.



TheWarAgainstTime said:


> I think you'd be better off with a Boss GE-7, that way you have more flexibility and a different choice in frequencies from your existing 10-band eq.



What TWAT said. Kindsage, I see you talk of your 10 band quite a bit, I have one too, but try a Ge-7. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I like the mid frequencies it offers better than the MXR, and it's pretty cool using one in the loop and one in front if you feel like getting really nitpicky.



Jacksonluvr636 said:


> It is like hooking up with that super hot girl from the bar, when you were trashed...Then waking up the next day only to see that you brought home a giraffe.


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## Bearitone (Oct 24, 2016)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> What TWAT said. Kindsage, I see you talk of your 10 band quite a bit, I have one too, but try a Ge-7. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I like the mid frequencies it offers better than the MXR, and it's pretty cool using one in the loop and one in front if you feel like getting really nitpicky.



You're right, I definitely do mention the 10 band quite a bit (probably too much ) 
I think it was just the discovery of extra EQ that changed everything for me. I started searching for amps based on the sound of their gain structure rather than their stock EQ knowing I could change the EQ to my liking with the 10 band. 

Does a stock 5150III sound better to my ears than a stock 6505? 
Yes but, with a 10 band EQ I can get the 6505 to sound just like it, but with that grittier gain structure of the 6505 that I've come to love.

I think I might eventually try a Ge-7 for out front. I have a hunch that having greater control over the mids is much more important out front than in the effects loop.


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## andybobandyy (Oct 24, 2016)

What i've read from BBE themselves is that it makes all the frequencies (High, mid, low) reach your ear at the same time. I use it through my effects loop and it sounds great. I love it. Pretty much boosted my signal and then I can fine tune my tone with it.


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## bostjan (Oct 25, 2016)

andybobandyy said:


> What i've read from BBE themselves is that it makes all the frequencies (High, mid, low) reach your ear at the same time.



That's the kind of rubbish to which I was referring. At the end of the day, it either sounds the way you like or not, and the stuff that they try to make sound like science doesn't matter, but the fact that they are trying to pass off bull.... like this as a sort of explanation pisses me off.

They might as well say that the device contains an deframbulous membrane that removes all of the unwanted frequencies and a contambulator to boost the frequencies that sound good, and that these two secret components can only be made by elves out of unicorn livers and jackalope antlers.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Oct 25, 2016)

bostjan said:


> They might as well say that the device contains an deframbulous membrane that removes all of the unwanted frequencies and a contambulator to boost the frequencies that sound good, and that these two secret components can only be made by elves out of unicorn livers and jackalope antlers.



No no no, common misconception. It's actually Unicorn pancreas not liver. And it doesn't matter anyway because the elves are on a prolonged strike over working conditions(Santa's shops are now in China, go figure) so BBE isn't even making these right now, making the units already available that much more magical.


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## bostjan (Oct 25, 2016)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> No no no, common misconception. It's actually Unicorn pancreas not liver. And it doesn't matter anyway because the elves are on a prolonged strike over working conditions(Santa's shops are now in China, go figure) so BBE isn't even making these right now, making the units already available that much more magical.





Also:


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## bnzboy (Oct 28, 2016)

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/24868-bbe-launches-the-mini-sonic-stomp

"Musicians the world over have been asking for a compact BBE Sonic Stomp pedal to suit todays smaller pedalboards"


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 28, 2016)

It's funny... Besides Boss distortion pedals, I've never seen a pedal so hated, yet so popular than the BBE Sonic Stomp.


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## purpledc (Oct 30, 2016)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's funny... Besides Boss distortion pedals, I've never seen a pedal so hated, yet so popular than the BBE Sonic Stomp.



The metalzone used to be like the holy grail to me when I was a kid. I have no idea what I was thinking. And to add insult to injury I actually used it in front of the dirty channel of a valvestate amp.


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## noUser01 (Oct 31, 2016)

We just need someone who actually understands electronics to open one up, see if the circuit actually indicates the same functions that the manual claims. At this point though, I didn't see or hear anything other than a two-band EQ. I'm sure all those parts are doing more than that or else they'd be unnecessary expenses for the company, but I don't know what they're doing.


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## bostjan (Nov 1, 2016)

ConnorGilks said:


> We just need someone who actually understands electronics to open one up, see if the circuit actually indicates the same functions that the manual claims. At this point though, I didn't see or hear anything other than a two-band EQ. I'm sure all those parts are doing more than that or else they'd be unnecessary expenses for the company, but I don't know what they're doing.








It's a cross over with that proprietary chip (I posted the data sheet for it on the last page, which reveals the chip's function as an EQ), then an op amp sum on the output of the two channels separated by the crossover. So, it takes the lows and separates them from the highs, passes each band through it's own EQ, then sums them back together. Why that would be advantageous over just using a graphic EQ with more control over the tone shaping might be something for BBE to explain.

A lot of BBE fans have run with the meme (I'm not sure the original source), that the pedal aligns phases of different frequencies with each other, which it clearly does not do.

A lot of BBE haters have run with the meme that it's just a mid scoop pedal. It's clearly more complex than that.

Note from the photo, that, other than the proprietary chip, there is really nothing the least bit special about the circuit.


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