# Thomann not refunding money!



## Quantum-7 (Jun 25, 2011)

Hey all,

I'm here to spill my guts about Thomann. I bought a Schecter Omen Extreme-7, and it's a dud, in every way, faulty bridge, faulty neck, it's no good at all. Now I wanted to get a replacement or money back, I now decided I want my money back, so I can get a more than DECENT guitar *drumroll* : An Agile Septor Pro 727 EB Tribal Purple.

The pitfall is... Thomann doesn't refund my fucking money because of a fucking box. I don't have the original boxing anymore... but that shouldn't matter right, to send it back? Thomann says it does! Especially when refunding. What kind of bs is this? They're telling me I can't send a FAULTY product back.. because of a BOX?

Now I'm stuck with a bad guitar, and not getting that sweet Agile guitar..

Someone give me tips on how to solve this?


----------



## vampiregenocide (Jun 25, 2011)

You've got proof of purchase though right?


----------



## Erodrim (Jun 25, 2011)

Bought a Beringher Vamp amp once

was crap

returned it and got fully refunded, no question asked


----------



## steve1 (Jun 25, 2011)

pretty sure they are legally required to refund you. research the law a little, they're based in germany right? not sure if it would be german law or general EU law you'd need to look at.

Don't let them get away with it. Especially if its faulty, its not like they're going to need the original box, cz they cant sell it if its faulty. Unless they sell it as craptastic B-stock, and they wouldn't need the original box for that anyway.


----------



## Alwballe (Jun 25, 2011)

I dont want to be the bearer of bad news, but i think youre pretty f***d on this one.
They complain about the box because they cant resell it if its not in original packaging. Well, they could, but then it would be "used"

Its a thing most stores wont complain about, usually they would just take it back and resell it a few bucks cheaper. A satisfied customer is worth more than that.
But big stores like thomann, that does most of their buisness in the Internetz, seem to think that a "b-stock" item is the end of the world.
Also thomann has some pretty sucky policies about international trade. Its much harder to get something refunded or replaced if youre outside germany for some reason.

Sux ass. But unfortunately its in their policy, and we all get screwed by that at some point.

Kinda sad, thomann usually is pretty good.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 25, 2011)

I guess the honeymoon is over then? http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/160070-my-first-sevenstring.html 

Thomann has an explicit return policy.



> So you thought a particular product was the right one for you, and then you discover it's not. Well, that's life.
> But no problem! We grant a 30-day money-back guarantee on any item you buy at Thomann - no hassles, no questions asked! (does not apply to products specially made or modified for you such as custom cases; software must be sealed and thomann in its original, unopened packaging).
> 
> If you're not completely satisfied, please contact us, and we'll arrange for you a free return service (within Germany only).
> ...


30-Day Money-Back Guarantee - Thomann UK Cyberstore

Even so, I would press them on the issue. Most customer service reps for larger businesses are trained to placate the customer on "smaller ticket" items.

You should have a warranty with Schecter. If it's truly a faulty product, that is Schecter's fault. Use your warranty and have Schecter make the repairs or send you a replacement.


----------



## steve1 (Jun 25, 2011)

Alwballe said:


> *But unfortunately its in their policy*



Check where you stand in terms of the law. If the law is on your side, policy don't mean shit.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jun 25, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Check where you stand in terms of the law. If the law is on your side, policy don't mean shit.



Thomann has completed their obligation to the customer. It's not their job to do quality control for Schecter. Thomann does offer a 30-day refund policy, provided you can return the item in original condition (this means _all_ originally included material). If you can't meet their requirements, why do they have to take it back? It's explicitly stated on their website and I'd be willing to bet the return slip that came with the instrument also lists the requirements. I'm not sure that the law would be on his side. 

If it is a faulty instrument, I would recommend that he uses his warranty with Schecter. The warranty requires that the guitar be in proper, working condition. That means either repairing the old one, or providing a replacement.


----------



## steve1 (Jun 25, 2011)

gunshow86de said:


> Thomann has completed their obligation to the customer.



No. They are required by law to deal with faulty items. (assuming this was a very recent sale) They have made their profit selling a faulty item, it is their job to then sort it out with their supplier.


----------



## TRENCHLORD (Jun 25, 2011)

They should help you for sure, even if they had to charge a re-stocking fee because of the box missing.(IMO)


----------



## Rook (Jun 25, 2011)

Find a schecter dealer in the UK and ask for a box, most bricks and mortar stores in the UK don't give a crap about individual boxes. It does say it in the policy though, they have every right to refuse refund based on that.

Seriously though, you should have no trouble getting a schecter box.


----------



## Neil (Jun 25, 2011)

Please note (in the UK at least) a returns policy only matters for items you are returning by choice, e.g. if after 30 days you decide a new jumper is the wrong colour and its out of returns policy then its your own fault.

but a faulty item can be returned at any point as long it is either covered under warranty or has broken before the expected life of the product, and the life of a guitar is somewhat longer than a month 


Keep arguing, find the German or EU law regarding faulty returns.


----------



## steve1 (Jun 25, 2011)

just a thought, and probably a useless one....

*Please make sure you return the product in its original packaging including all accessories and be careful to avoid any thomann signs of use!

*This seems to be worded as a request, and not a condition. It does not include any information on what the consequences are if you don't follow this request.

"please make sure" is different to "you absolutely must" (maybe)

Maybe a longshot but I'd say they haven't worded the policy well enough.








I'm clutching at straws here


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jun 25, 2011)

Always read posted return policies carefully. Lesson learned.


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jun 25, 2011)

I've only ever had flawless service the times when I've bought from Thomann.


----------



## steve1 (Jun 25, 2011)

gunshow86de said:


> I guess the honeymoon is over then? http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/160070-my-first-sevenstring.html



wow, i completely missed this.

OP - can you elaborate on what the faults are, with pictures?

It seems unusual to go from loving a guitar to saying it's a *complete* dud.

Edit: ahhhh i see.....http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/pickups-electronics-general-tech/162149-pickups-out-place.html


----------



## Sollesnes (Jun 25, 2011)

There are big differences between countries on this...
I am pretty sure you will not be able to get a refund... but you should be able to get a new guitar of the same model, although missing original packaging can be a problem, it should get sorted out without much difficulties!
But absolutely asking for a full re-fund is too much, when you wasted part of their product..

I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## Explorer (Jun 25, 2011)

I always hold onto packing materials in case an item fails during the return period. I've had this go wrong with Best Buy and other places, so it's just easier to have everything to ensure a clean return.

Since the OP posted in one of his earlier threads about this guitar about Thomann giving a 3-year warranty on the instrument, I'm hoping that he'll take advantage of that, assuming that he didn't misinterpret what he read.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

gunshow86de said:


> I guess the honeymoon is over then? http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/160070-my-first-sevenstring.html
> 
> Thomann has an explicit return policy.
> 
> ...


Schecter tells me I should get a replacement at the dealer..


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

steve1 said:


> wow, i completely missed this.
> 
> OP - can you elaborate on what the faults are, with pictures?
> 
> ...


 Yep and my neck socket is cut too wide, I can put my fingernail between the socket and the neck... I really loved this guitar, but now I see it's no good at all..


----------



## Lilarcor (Jun 26, 2011)

Ok, to clear things up a bit. In this case several different regulations may apply.

1. There is an EU law that grants you a 14 days trial period no matter of the condition of the product (if you've purchased over the internet). Meaning you can send back everything within these 14 days and get your money back. The dealer is allowed, though, to refund the price only partially if there are any signs of use. As said this is a LAW.

2. Thomann (as many other dealers) expanded this law to a 30 days money back period. This is accommodation and they can choose what terms apply here. They do NOT need to do this. It's all vontuntary. So you've got 14 days covered by law and the next 16 days by Thomann's policies.

3. Within the EU there is also legally binding 2 years warranty period. If any faults come up within this period the DEALER is legally bound to take care of it (in this case meaning sending it to the manufacturer). He doesn't need to refund the money, just fix all problems. It's up to him how he does that.
In the first 6 months of this period it's up to the dealer to prove that you didn't do the damage. For the following six 18 months you must prove that you didn't damage the product.

4. Every MANUFACTURER can grant a voluntary warranty period as long as he likes to.

As your guitar seems faulty you should make this crystal clear. Thomann MUST then FIX it, NOT refund your money. They just need to fix the problems. Most of the time it's easier and probably cheaper for them to just give full refunds in such cases. But they don't have to.
If you are within the 14 days trial period and the faults aren't signs of your use (which they indeed are not) Thomann must refund your money no matter of the original box. I think they could lower the refund by the price of a new packaging, though.

Btw: I'm neither a lawyer nor a native english speaker so I hope you can understand what I mean


----------



## loktide (Jun 26, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I've only ever had flawless service the times when I've bought from Thomann.



same with me. out of all music stores i've bought stuff from online, thomann has by FAR the best service.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

Neil said:


> Please note (in the UK at least) a returns policy only matters for items you are returning by choice, e.g. if after 30 days you decide a new jumper is the wrong colour and its out of returns policy then its your own fault.
> 
> but a faulty item can be returned at any point as long it is either covered under warranty or has broken before the expected life of the product, and the life of a guitar is somewhat longer than a month
> 
> ...


I will, because according to the law, they MUST accept my guitar, and they MUST refund me, because I have this 30 day guarantee, and the 3 years warranty. I also have proof that I bought it there ofc. I won't take no for an answer. I have the full right to return my product, I mean, why won't they just order a box from schecter lol...


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

Lilarcor said:


> Ok, to clear things up a bit. In this case several different regulations may apply.
> 
> 1. There is an EU law that grants you a 14 days trial period no matter of the condition of the product (if you've purchased over the internet). Meaning you can send back everything within these 14 days and get your money back. The dealer is allowed, though, to refund the price only partially if there are any signs of use. As said this is a LAW.
> 
> ...


Thanks for making this clear to me, so it's kinda hard to get a full refund right? But I mean, Thomann can never fix this, it has a special finish (see through black cherry) when they need to fix my bridge, my bridge posts need to be slightly moved, but along with that, the old holes need to be filled and repainted, but you will always see the filler... the neck is no problem though, just a shim between it, and it's good.


----------



## Lilarcor (Jun 26, 2011)

How long do you own the guitar? If only for short you should definitely insist on a flawless and like new guitar. It's not your problem how they manage to fix the problems. In fact, they have 3 (or even only 2, don't know for sure) tries to deliver a faultless product. After that they MUST refund you the whole price. As I said they will probably either refund or send you a new one, anyway, as the most common thing to do in such cases is to send the faulty product back to the local distributor. Make perfectly clear that the guitar is in a non-playable condition. Always speaking of refunds right at the beginning might make them think you just don't like the guitar.
Just for your info, whole price means the price of the product and only partly the shipping. There are also certain regulations. But well, in Germany and the EU there are certain regulations for almost anything as you may know.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

Lilarcor said:


> How long do you own the guitar? If only for short you should definitely insist on a flawless and like new guitar. It's not your problem how they manage to fix the problems. In fact, they have 3 (or even only 2, don't know for sure) tries to deliver a faultless product. After that they MUST refund you the whole price. As I said they will probably either refund or send you a new one, anyway, as the most common thing to do in such cases is to send the faulty product back to the local distributor. Make perfectly clear that the guitar is in a non-playable condition. Always speaking of refunds right at the beginning might make them think you just don't like the guitar.
> Just for your info, whole price means the price of the product and only partly the shipping. There are also certain regulations. But well, in Germany and the EU there are certain regulations for almost anything as you may know.


 
I have this guitar for not even a month, I bought it on 28-05-2011. I'm giving them a call tomorrow (again), on how to solve this problem. I've given them a dozen calls, and still no solution. I've explained that the guitar is in non-working condition, but they just don't seem to understand.

They sure made their problem mine now, I don't care about how they need the box, they should accept my guitar and order a new box themselves. How hard could it be?


----------



## Lilarcor (Jun 26, 2011)

This means that you waited almost a month before you reported the issues. I don't want to excuse Thomann's behavior in this situation and you are still right, but if this was my guitar I'd have reported it the day I'd gotten it. It might seem to them that you are just trying to find an excuse for sending it back based on their trial period although you don't meet the requirements for it (missing box).
But apart from all that your guitar is faulty and you're not responsible for its faults. That means they must at least fix it. Stress this fact. It's your right. Even if you had caused the faults they'd have to prove it which is close to impossible.
And they can't expect from someone to keep a big paper box for the whole warranty period (in that case 2 years).


----------



## vinniemallet (Jun 26, 2011)

Bro always read the return policies, almost every online music store wants all the package to make a refund or to change by other product, that's why I always keep the original box with me for 1-2 months.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

Lilarcor said:


> This means that you waited almost a month before you reported the issues. I don't want to excuse Thomann's behavior in this situation and you are still right, but if this was my guitar I'd have reported it the day I'd gotten it. It might seem to them that you are just trying to find an excuse for sending it back based on their trial period although you don't meet the requirements for it (missing box).
> But apart from all that your guitar is faulty and you're not responsible for its faults. That means they must at least fix it. Stress this fact. It's your right. Even if you had caused the faults they'd have to prove it which is close to impossible.
> And they can't expect from someone to keep a big paper box for the whole warranty period (in that case 2 years).


Well the problem is, I didn't notice it at first, but after I wanted a pickup replacement, it showed...


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jun 26, 2011)

Always FULLY inspect new gear on day one. 

You neither inspected the instrument, adhered to the return/exchange policy, and waited nearly a month to do anything. 

Why should Thomann bear the cost of your, and Schecters, blunders?

I can see why they should help you out, from a customer service point of view, but they didn't become one of the EU's biggest retailer by bending over to those who don't help themselves.

If they offer you an exchange take it and learn from it.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Always FULLY inspect new gear on day one.
> 
> You neither inspected the instrument, adhered to the return/exchange policy, and waited nearly a month to do anything.
> 
> ...


Yeah you are partially right, I can see where you're going. But if Thomann advertises with a 30 day money back guarantee, I must be allowed to test and inspect the product when I want to, within the 30 days term. But you are right, I should have inspected it from day one!


----------



## Sollesnes (Jun 26, 2011)

The 30 day guarantee only works when you hold your end of the deal (the box). Now, they are entitled to fix your guitar, or offer you a new model.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jun 26, 2011)

Quantum-7 said:


> Yeah you are partially right, I can see where you're going. But if Thomann advertises with a 30 day money back guarantee, I must be allowed to test and inspect the product when I want to, within the 30 days term. But you are right, I should have inspected it from day one!



The same policy that explains the 30 day guarantee also says that you need the original packaging. You can't really have it both ways and pick and choose what parts of the policy you like best. 

You have to look at it from Thomann's point of veiw.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 26, 2011)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The same policy that explains the 30 day guarantee also says that you need the original packaging. You can't really have it both ways and pick and choose what parts of the policy you like best.
> 
> You have to look at it from Thomann's point of veiw.


I understand. I'll ask for a replacement instead. I'll let you guys know tomorrow! Thanks for all the assistance, it's much appreciated.


----------



## SirMyghin (Jun 26, 2011)

I posted in your pickup allignment thread, you should try realligning the neck as that looks to be the issue, step 1 is loosen the screws a bit with the strings under tension, that should seat the neck in the pocket properly. Step 2 is allign and tighten the neck in proper position without tension if need be. 

Honestly, you can't expect a perfect neck pocket on a guitar in that range. For bolt necks to be jarred heavily during shipping, or possibly even during your month of use (we cannot verify either, nor disprove them) and then have the neck shift a touch in the pocket is all it takes. This is quite common, the bridge looks fine to me.


----------



## Explorer (Jun 26, 2011)

I don't think I've ever seen someone seriously tell Max that he's wrong on something which is gear related and which isn't a matter of opinion. 

Max, they definitely chose right when you were elevated to mod status. Not only are you hugely knowledgeable, but your equanimity is beyond compare....


----------



## Andromalia (Jun 26, 2011)

All right, two points. 

I have used Thomann's warranty in the past for a faulty item. Thomann sent me an UPS guy to pick the guitar and I had *nothing* to pay. (Was a matter of crackling finish on a new guitar)

Using the 30 days "trial" period or using the warranty because of a defect are two different things.

-Using the return policy is because you don't like the item. you have to resend it, with *all* the stuff, and pay return shipping.
-Using the warranty is because the item is defective. Thomann will either repair/fix it or send you a new one. They won't give you money back in this case.

The original post leads me to think this case was understood by thomann as a return, not a warranty call.
I do have some gripes with Thomann (paying extra for anything else other than E standard setup ffs...) but their CS isn't one of them.


----------



## Quantum-7 (Jun 27, 2011)

Problem solved, I'm getting a partial refund, because of the box they need to deduct 20% of the price. But at least I can send it back 

I must thank all of you for the great support, I promise to not be such an ass, posting this kind of crap again


----------



## DevinShidaker (Jun 27, 2011)

If the problem was misaligned strings on a bolt on neck guitar, that is a ridiculously EASY fix that you can do with a screw driver and about 3 minutes time. In your other posts you said you were attached to the guitar, so maybe you'll want to explore this option before returning it for 20% less than what you payed for it. With the strings on your guitar, loosen the neck screws slightly until you can feel it budge, and then apply light pressure on the bass side of the neck towards the treble side of the neck, slightly moving it so the strings are properly aligned, then screw back into place while holding it. Being as this is something that can be a problem with any bolt on neck guitar, this is something you should learn how to fix, as it isn't hard to do, and it doesn't mean your guitar is a dud.


----------

