# Stage Sound Poll



## Regor (Sep 3, 2006)

So which do you feel is the better option for the guitarists/band?

Is it more important to be 'heard' when you're on stage (and likewise, hear yourself on stage), or is it more important to have a good tone/sound, but possibly be lost in the mix (if the FOH guy is a dumbass).

Just curious, because I tailor my live sound a bit to be heard in the mix better (i.e. more highs to cut thru, less bass to not 'woof' out the tone at such large volumes). But I've been told by a sound guy that my tone is too sharp and that I need to change it to sound better. Well, my 'basement' practice settings sound great, but they don't work well in the band environment, not to mention at much louder volumes.


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## Popsyche (Sep 3, 2006)

You should have a tone that is workable for the sound guy. It's up to him to make it fit into the mix and the room. Give him as much to work with as you can.


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## Donnie (Sep 3, 2006)

What Bill said. A good, workable tone is key. Also, keeping your stage volume relatively low helps too. For example, when I was running the 5150, in practice I would run it on about 4. Live I would take it down to about 2 1/2. And for that amp, it's still quite loud. I've run sound a few times and nothing is worse than a guitar player that has his amp cranked. Let the pa do all the work. Or atleast make sure that your amp is not pointed directly at the soundguy.


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## Regor (Sep 3, 2006)

I understand that... but most of the clubs I've played either have SHITE montiors, or none at all. My motto is "don't rely on the sound guy to hear yourself onstage"... otherwise you'll have a bad performance cuz you can't hear what you're doing, and neither can anyone else in your band.


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## Leon (Sep 3, 2006)

i would imagine that i'd suck handing over the controls of your sound to someone else. what about having someone around who knows your sound, who can give advice to the local sound guy to help you guys get there?


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## Vince (Sep 3, 2006)

Popsyche said:


> You should have a tone that is workable for the sound guy. It's up to him to make it fit into the mix and the room. Give him as much to work with as you can.



By the same token, many clubs have absolutely horrible sound guys. Live, I'm not usually worried about my guitar sound, I'm usually worried that the singer can be heard. Clubs out here in AZ like to make the band super-deafening loud & then bury the vocalist. Very little actual mixing.

That's not all clubs, though. There's a little dive in north tempe called Chasers that uses sound engineers from the nearby Conservatory of Recording Arts & Sciences. That club also has acoustic panels along the walls behind the stage & the stage is set in a big corner of the main room. Good sound in there.

Bottom line, I'm not so much worried about how I sound live, I'm more concerned how the band sounds as a whole & that the vocalist can be heard.


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## Christopher (Sep 3, 2006)

As a guy that does sound almost as often as I actually play live, I can tell you that most guitar players have no idea how to dial in their guitar tone to fit into a band situation.

Almost always it's the same thing. No mids, way too much bass and gain, and too much highs.

If you want to cut through, add mids. It's like a magic "cut through knob". 

Regor, you're a Triaxis man right? Lay off the dynamic voice a little more than you think you should live and that will help.

The problem most guys have is they set up their tone to sound good when heard by themselves. For practice and in some recording situations that's fine but live it won't cut the mustard.

In order for a guitar and it's related freq's to sit well in a mix it has to take up the freq's available. Those are primarily mid freq's.

My advice for guitar players is always the same thing. Take the sound you have when playing by yourself and cut 25% of the bass off, double the mids, and set the gain at the lowest you can possibly stand it and you'll be at a good starting spot.

The simpliest misconception out there is that you can use the same tone, in the studio as you do live as you do alone.

My two pennies.


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## Donnie (Sep 3, 2006)

Christopher said:


> As a guy that does sound almost as often as I actually play live, I can tell you that most guitar players have no idea how to dial in their guitar tone to fit into a band situation.
> 
> Almost always it's the same thing. No mids, way too much bass and gain, and too much highs.
> 
> If you want to cut through, add mids. It's like a magic "cut through knob".


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## Regor (Sep 3, 2006)

Hey Christopher, while I understand what you're saying, and there's a part of me that wants to follow it... 'tonally' I just cannot do that. If my settings are off, it annoys the shit outta me. I cut ~355Hz (so lower mids), and I've tried putting the DV lower, but it just doesn't sound right to me (i.e. doesn't sound like 'me').

Check out my band's MySpace in my sig. Those songs are recorded live off of a videocamera. Tell me what you think of the mix on "The Death Of Life".


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## Christopher (Sep 4, 2006)

Regor said:


> Hey Christopher, while I understand what you're saying, and there's a part of me that wants to follow it... 'tonally' I just cannot do that. If my settings are off, it annoys the shit outta me. I cut ~355Hz (so lower mids), and I've tried putting the DV lower, but it just doesn't sound right to me (i.e. doesn't sound like 'me').
> 
> Check out my band's MySpace in my sig. Those songs are recorded live off of a videocamera. Tell me what you think of the mix on "The Death Of Life".



Dude the track on myspace is really hard to judge. If you like your tone and can hear yourself fine onstage then you'll just have to put up with the sound guys. The phrase in your original post, "I tailor my live sound a bit to be heard in the mix better (i.e. more highs to cut thru" may be the problem. Adding the highs isn't going to help you cut so much as make it shrill and sharp.

Are you running 1 4x12 on stage? Is it on the floor?


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## Regor (Sep 4, 2006)

It's on casters. And I don't really 'boost' the highs for live. Actually, I do attenuate them a bit. I add lots of highs in the preamp to get some great gain, but then I use my Furman PQ-4 for EQ tailoring. Live, I cut the low end to get rid of the 'woof', and roll off the highs to make sure it's not 'too' sharp. I can hear myself fine (if the volume's up).


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## Christopher (Sep 4, 2006)

A lot of the problems I see recurring is that guys will have a 4x12 right behind them on stage and it will be blasting the back of their knees. Since they aren't getting the straight blast from the speakers it sounds too dark to them and the kick the highs up to compensate. To them on stage, it's just perfect but out in front of the cab (and to the mic) is ice pick central. For those guys I'll raise the 4x12 off the floor so that they're getting to hear it more straight on. They usually lower their highs instantly.

In your case, it may just be a matter of preference. I think I've seen you post your settings either here or over at Huge Racks and remember thinking that they were way different from what I'd used or seen used. Maybe you just have a unique tone.

Have you ever heard your live tone through a mic? Another problem I see often is that guitar players will love the sound they hear out of their speakers but hate the tone they hear of the same amp mic'd. I went through a huge learning curve when my band switched to IEM's. At first I couldn't stand my tone at all. It sounded so different from what I'd heard from the cab. I learned to experiment with mic postition and tone settings fast! If you think what they say has merit I'd experiment a little and try some slightly different settings. If you're happy with what you have, I'd just learn to ignore the sound guys.


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## Jason (Sep 4, 2006)

Christopher said:


> A lot of the problems I see recurring is that guys will have a 4x12 right behind them on stage and it will be blasting the back of their knees. Since they aren't getting the straight blast from the speakers it sounds too dark to them and the kick the highs up to compensate. To them on stage, it's just perfect but out in front of the cab (and to the mic) is ice pick central. For those guys I'll raise the 4x12 off the floor so that they're getting to hear it more straight on. They usually lower their highs instantly.



EXACTLY. go play a combo amp at ear level and setup the eq then put the amp on the floor..it will sound totally muffled. where the mic picks up the sound and where your ear picks up the sound is completley dif.


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## Regor (Sep 4, 2006)

I do hate the way my tone sounds mic'd... but I also don't like the way my amp sounds straight on... I stand at an angle from it most of the time. And yes, my tone is unique. And it kicks ass.


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## Christopher (Sep 4, 2006)

Regor said:


> I do hate the way my tone sounds mic'd... but I also don't like the way my amp sounds straight on... I stand at an angle from it most of the time. And yes, my tone is unique. And it kicks ass.



There's the issue then. If you want it to sound good mic'd and good im front of it you need to tweak it in front of you. A 4x12 cab is extremely directional and for you to get it to right off to the side you must be using extremely trebly settings.

My advice would be to pull up a chair directly in front but maybe six feet back from your cab and tweak it until it's the sound you hear now when listening off to the side. Then, when you play live, put your cab on top of something, even another 4x12 so that you can get it at ear level or as close as you can.

Getting the audience to hear the guitar the same way guitar players do IS the challenge. It's not just the sound guy's job though.

Imagine what the people standing directly in front think of your tone.


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## Regor (Sep 5, 2006)

Christopher said:


> Imagine what the people standing directly in front think of your tone.



Noodles thought it sounded godly. 

I just try to push my cab far back on stage to make sure the slant hits my head. Just can't do that when they prestage all the bands onstage.


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## Christopher (Sep 6, 2006)

Regor said:


> Noodles thought it sounded godly.
> 
> I just try to push my cab far back on stage to make sure the slant hits my head. Just can't do that when they prestage all the bands onstage.



Then why stress over what a soundguy said?


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## noodles (Sep 6, 2006)

Regor said:


> Noodles thought it sounded godly.



The best thing I can say about your tone is that it sat exactly where it needed to be in the mix of your band. I could hear every instrument distinctly, and one guitar wasn't stepping on the other (much more common than many realize).

When I got the Road King, I got Mike to help me dial it in at practice one night. Sure, I messed with it at home. I messed with it *a lot* at home.  However, as the new guy in the band, I needed the ear of experience to help me baseline the amp. Mike, not I, knew what Division was supposed to sound like, and I believe that there is no room for egos when everyone is dialing in their gear.

Of course, this was almost a year ago, I have since learned where I fit in the mix, and I have tweaked things to fit my style. Suffice to say, I use less gain, less bass, and more mids in my rhythm tone than I ever would at home. Especially in a two guitar band, where everything has a cumulative effect. That goes for just about every band I've ever been in, and it comes from walking out front (I have a wireless) and actually hearing what I will sound like out on the floor. What sounded great at home would sound boomy and undefined in the mix. Conversely, if I turn my rig on at home, it sounds thin and lacks enough gain to have balls. That is why I have a 25w practice amp with the "metal scoop" and a dimed gain knob. 



Christopher said:


> A lot of the problems I see recurring is that guys will have a 4x12 right behind them on stage and it will be blasting the back of their knees. Since they aren't getting the straight blast from the speakers it sounds too dark to them and the kick the highs up to compensate. To them on stage, it's just perfect but out in front of the cab (and to the mic) is ice pick central. For those guys I'll raise the 4x12 off the floor so that they're getting to hear it more straight on. They usually lower their highs instantly.



There is an avantage to having a rack like this:






When I'm squating down to tweak settings, I'm hearing exactly what the mic is going to hear. When I stand up, it is muffled and undefined.

I don't think most people realize that a 4x12 was designed with the focal point of the sound about fifteen feet in front of it. This is why the speakers that sound good to you, don't sound good to the mic live, which doesn't sound good to the mic(s) in the studio. Learning to listen like a microphone is an ongoing challenge to me.


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## Drew (Sep 6, 2006)

I can't really vote in this poll because I think the two basically CANNOT be mutually exclusive in a good live tone. A good-sounding live tone IS one that cuts through the mix and sounds "full" with the band.



Regor said:


> I do hate the way my tone sounds mic'd... but I also don't like the way my amp sounds straight on... I stand at an angle from it most of the time. And yes, my tone is unique. And it kicks ass.



Regor, Christopher is so dead-on here it's not even funny. 

I get a good "live" tone by mic'ing my amp up in a way that I know will give me a pretty accurate picture of what's coming out the speakers, then go out in front of the PA speakers and listen to myself. If I don't like what I'm hearing, I'll EQ accordingly. Noticing just how differently an amp sounded close-mic'd than it did in the room was a huge eye-opener for me and taught me a lot about dialing up live tone. 

But, that's the thing - it's not the difference between "live" tone and "practice" tone, it's just a difference of where you're monitoring from. If you have an absolutely kickass tone coming through your speakers, then you're going to have an absolutely kickass mic'd up tone. In the studio you can fudge it a bit with distance mics and whatnot, but if you're relying on the effect of the room to get a guitar sound and then close-micing for a gig, you're jsut fucking yourself. 

So, real quick because I'm coming up on a deadline - if you don't like your mic'd tone and don't like your tone head-on because it's too bright and sizzly, cut the highs. IIRC, you're the guy rinning his Triaxis with the treble at 10, right? Treble and Mids at 10? Try drpping your treble to 6 or 7 and listening from right in front of a speaker. It'll probably sound much more balanced, and will be way more easy to mix. 

Also +1000 on the midrange knob - if you're relying on treble to cut, you're just going to clash with the cymbols and have to boost the fuck out of your amp to cut through. Ease up on the treble and focus on the (in your case, upper) midrange to sit in the mix - this will both sound better mic'd and, becase you won't be fighting for the same EQ space as your drummer, make it FAR easier for you to hear yourself live and will give you the benefit of perceived lower stage volume. 

I know you don't want to hear this because you like your tone... But the reason you can't hear yourself very well live is BECAUSE you rely on the treble to cut through. Dial up a smoother tone with more upper mid and less treble and compensate by standing closer to in front of your amp. You'll sit in the mix better, once you get used to it you'll be happy, and the sound guy will stop having to pull out his hair.


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## Regor (Sep 8, 2006)

Drew said:


> IIIRC, you're the guy rinning his Triaxis with the treble at 10, right? Treble and Mids at 10? Try drpping your treble to 6 or 7 and listening from right in front of a speaker. It'll probably sound much more balanced, and will be way more easy to mix.



The problem with that is, in the architecture of the TriAxis, the treble setting is a secondary gain setting in the LD2 modes. So if you back off the treble, you're backing off the gain. And it just doesn't 'feel' the same with lower gain (to me, even on 9.0 instead of 10.0). The highs are rolled off at 10k in the Furman. Helps to take the sharpness off. And that is something I've been doing 'since' that sound guy told me I was too sharp... so I dunno if that's helped the 'mic'd' sound or not.

I'll try doing the upper-mids thing next time I'm at band practice. See how that sounds.



Drew said:


> if you're relying on treble to cut, you're just going to clash with the cymbols and have to boost the fuck out of your amp to cut through.



I think the solution to the issue is to get another 4x12 and run both sides of my 2:90 at full volume instead of half.


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## Christopher (Sep 8, 2006)

Regor said:


> The problem with that is, in the architecture of the TriAxis, the treble setting is a secondary gain setting in the LD2 modes. So if you back off the treble, you're backing off the gain. And it just doesn't 'feel' the same with lower gain (to me, even on 9.0 instead of 10.0). The highs are rolled off at 10k in the Furman. Helps to take the sharpness off. And that is something I've been doing 'since' that sound guy told me I was too sharp... so I dunno if that's helped the 'mic'd' sound or not.
> 
> I'll try doing the upper-mids thing next time I'm at band practice. See how that sounds.
> 
> ...



The second 4x12 might help alot if it were stacked on top so it was near your head.


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## Drew (Sep 8, 2006)

Regor said:


> I think the solution to the issue is to get another 4x12 and run both sides of my 2:90 at full volume instead of half.



Then the cymbols won't cut.  Complimentary EQ will ALWAYS give you a better live mix than simply cranking everything and praying, in a concert situation. 

It'll take a little while to get used to, I'm sure, but from what I remember of your tone you can probably get away with cutting the gain a bit and live. If worst comes to worst, also try raising your pickups to compensate - you might need to shim them, but IIRC a RG7 body by default puts the pickups well below the 2mm maximum you can get away with...


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## eaeolian (Sep 11, 2006)

Hmm. I can't really answer this poll because I don't do either. I make sure my tone sounds good in the context of the band. House sound I have little control over. Stage sound is something different - there's been shows where I couldn't hear myself, but the FOH was great, so, whatever - I know what I'm playing. 

Yeah, I've rambled and this is no help. For the record, I heard nothing wrong with your tone at Oade's, other than the fact that the room sounded like crap. Up close, it was fine.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Sep 12, 2006)

I CAN'T EVEN COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I'VE DONE GIGS ON MUSCLE MEMORY ALONE, BECAUSE I REFUSED TO TURN UP LOUNDER, PARTLY TO AID THE SOUND TECHNICIAN, BECAUSE I AM ONE MYSELF, AND ALSO, IT CHANGES THE STAGE AT WHICH YOU CAN CONTROL FEEDBACK (FOR SUSTAINING PURPOSES OF COURSE, ALA HENDRIX/NUGENT)

OCCASIONALLY, I'D GET JUST A HINT OF IT BACK IN MY MONITOR, BUT AS LONG AS THE DRUMMER & BASS PLAYER COULD HEAR ME, WE WERE FINE.

IF YOU REALLY KNOW YOUR PARTS, "HEARING" THEM WON'T DETERMINE WETHER OR NOT YOU PLAY THEM ACCURATELY.


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## hirah (Sep 12, 2006)

i usually have a good foh mix and a good stage sound. but i spent ALOT of time with my sound knowing what it sounds like coming out of the speakers. my best advice is to sit down in front of your amp, with the speakers at ear level and adjust. then stand up and play. the sound will be different, but it is an accurate representation of the speaker cab. once you get familiar with how your amp sounds this way, it will be easy to adjust for live sound. and please, turn up the mids and cut back the gain. turn off the reverb, and drop the delay level.i've even played shows with my cabinet about 1.5 feet from the wall, facing the wall. you can turn it up more without blasting everyone in front of you, plus the whole back of the stage gets the sound, and the drummer can almost hear you. it just takes time and practice and consideration of the soundman, unless he's a real dick, to pull off a great live sound.


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## shredfreak (Sep 16, 2006)

Been messing around today with my mAxe in front of my crate head and the sound i got now is pretty good for mixing live. Basically all i need now is a pedal in my effects loop to give me a lil solo boost. Too bad were playing without a PA tomorrow otherwise it'd be killer 

Also noticed today how insanely loud it went . Head on 3 and mAxe on 4 was more then enough to go over the drums

Sit in front of the amp and tweek untill it sounds good, earplugs might be advisable


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## RISKY (Sep 20, 2006)

my two cents of bullshit would be,
If you're playing a middleground venue or bar/club my advice is forget the sound guy, or the pa for that matter you can't trust the mystery meat...I think heavier bands usually need to assume they have to compensate for shitty sound at these places or you might be dissatisfied. If you see a stage you should hope they have good shit and give them a chance, hopefully you will hear a band before you that way you know if you need to crank it or not keepin in mind your stuff and their stuff. Hope for good sound with a big stage because it totally blows the other way around, honestly for the sake of peoples enjoyment of music if the place skimps on the sound and has some big ass stage you should go to the van and get axes and torches and fucking smite that shit you got half stacks (OR FULL!) and if you play in a small place like hundred and less bodies you got the goods, do you really need to mic that? isn't it like the middleman? toss that shit out of the picture 
If your band needs to play LOUD and you are in a small venue let the sound guy prop up his mics and do his thing and you just dial in whatever sounds good to you on stage, but keep in mind what everyone before said about where your true sound is- in a small club thats probably right where the crowds gonna be hearing you at sorta so bend down to get to hear the actual sound but with the sound guy there ain't no fucking room for diplomacy in rock and roll even in this convuluted age of 2006 is there? As well there shouldn't! There are either people that want to hear you or other bands that have to play, so unleash that shit already!


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## RISKY (Sep 21, 2006)

somebody said 5150, and that reminded me... I played them for like a year at a rehearsal spot thinking the clean channel sucked because everyone told me it did. I just figured they were right, it wasn't great. But I guess it only sucked for cleans! I went in the rehearsal room after someone who had dialed this shit in that I never even thought to try. they fucking cranked that clean until you hit paydirt and it sounds like your crunch, rythmn, lead channel, whatever you call it, shitkicking channel and it sounded fucking nuts, it sounds 20% bigger than with the distorted channel if you get your distortion on the clean channel, like the grey version of the incredible hulk or some shit, anybody else use this? maybe it was that particular amp. I haven't used a 5150 in a while but I'd go and try to get that shit in again if I had to mess with one. I only played through it with those setting a few times. Those amps are greatand they are so cheap, why do ineed all this shit? worse than junk addict


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