# Where do musicians stand financially?



## Spacepants (Jan 29, 2011)

Guitar is something i really do love. i'd love to get into a band one day and make something out of myself, but you need to take things like these into consideration. How are musicians now financially?how much do these bands ACTUALLY get? lets say like an upcoming band like threat signal, compared to a bigger band like trivium and an even bigger band like avenged sevenfold. sorry if im in the wrong area on the forum, it seemed like the only place where this may be relevant.


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## Kavnar (Jan 29, 2011)

Think there's something in those videos that touches briefly on the subject.


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## ittoa666 (Jan 29, 2011)

Unless you have a radio hit or two and you play large venues 100% of the time, you have no money basically. The music business just has no love for challenging, technical, or heavy music. I hate to be that guy, but it's the truth. It's a hard thing to make a lot of money doing.


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## ralphy1976 (Jan 29, 2011)

cover bands (good ones) get some $

my teacher is in 6 bands and plays every night, small gigs in "fashionable places" not a lot everytime, but little by little it adds up

but we are not talking about complicated stuff here!! soul / funk / light jazz / jazzy blues.. something to get the crowd going that's all.


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## TreWatson (Jan 29, 2011)

I play occasionally at my mom's church and it pulls in a little bit of scratch

but honestly

financially, musicians are a step above the homeless.


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## Steve08 (Jan 29, 2011)

It depends on how big your band is, I will say that it's hard to be able to not have a job when off tour but bands like Veil of Maya are at that level right now so it's not impossible.

If you actually do professional services, ie. transcribing, producing/mixing/mastering/etc., session playing (live or studio) and songwriting/arranging then it's much easier to get a pretty nice amount of money. The hardest part about that is getting your foot in the door mostly.


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## Joose (Jan 29, 2011)

It's about the love of playing music. If you happen to make good money doing it, it's just icing on the cake.

Since I was about 13, I've said I'd rather survive playing music, than live comfortably working in a cubical.

I do hope I make good money off it one day though. Maybe become known enough to produce others and shit.


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 29, 2011)

I think it was a member of The Who that said 'Chosing to be a musician is choosing a life of near poverty for several years'. That's if you're lucky.


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## mountainjam (Jan 29, 2011)

I think if you go into it with the attitude "you wont make any money" then you probably wont.
look at it like this. There are several self recorded and self promoted bands online that are selling albums. If you can sell 10,000 albums at $10 each, that's $100,000, plus shows and merch. Now that's def not close to making it big, but its far from homeless. Just my opinion...


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## Chickenhawk (Jan 29, 2011)

TreWatson said:


> financially, musicians are a step above the homeless.



If you're lucky.

The most money I've made is from cover bands gigging every single chance we got, or from a couple pop-shit bands I'd play bass for, and gig our asses off.

Even then it never was enough money to really do anything. Those bands paid for themselves (enough money to cover expenses to and from the show, a little pocket change for the band, and maybe enough after a few shows to fix a guitar/amp).

The most I've ever made was a country band in Texas, where I just played one show with. The band made $5000 for a 45 minute set. Since I was a hired hand for the show, I got $750, and not the equal split, but I won't bitch about making $750 for 45 minutes of three chord country songs 

If you really want to make some dough playing music, sell out. Fuck, even Meshuggah have other jobs, and they're big as hell in the metal community.


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## Kavnar (Jan 29, 2011)

Infinity Complex said:


> If you really want to make some dough playing music, sell out.



Unfortunately, this is your answer.


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## Skyblue (Jan 29, 2011)

Best idea would probably be get a nice, solid job, and work on your music as a side thing. you might be big enough to start gigging more one day, and then concentrate on music only, but starting with it as a job- definitely not a good idea.


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## Cyntex (Jan 29, 2011)

In debt?


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 29, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> There are several self recorded and self promoted bands online that are selling albums. If you can sell 10,000 albums at $10 each, that's $100,000, plus shows and merch. Now that's def not close to making it big, but its far from homeless. Just my opinion...





Come on man, it's not that simple. You gotta factor in costs for gear, recording, marketing, touring, merch, distribution, housing, etc. ANd then that money has to be split up between all the members of the band. Time is a major factor too.


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

OP, here's a older thread that may help you in your answer.


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> I think if you go into it with the attitude "you wont make any money" then you probably wont.
> look at it like this. There are several self recorded and self promoted bands online that are selling albums. If you can sell 10,000 albums at $10 each, that's $100,000, plus shows and merch. Now that's def not close to making it big, but its far from homeless. Just my opinion...



I'll bite on this one. 

Okay, say there's 4 people in this band, that's $25,000 between the four of them. How much does recording of this album cost? How much does buying 10,000 CDs cost? How much does buying merch cost?


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## Demiurge (Jan 29, 2011)

Music as a _hobby_ has left me broke!


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## pineappleman (Jan 29, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> I think if you go into it with the attitude "you wont make any money" then you probably wont.
> look at it like this. There are several self recorded and self promoted bands online that are selling albums. If you can sell 10,000 albums at $10 each, that's $100,000, plus shows and merch. Now that's def not close to making it big, but its far from homeless. Just my opinion...



Uhh..  I don't know what bands you are talking about, but the only semi-almost-kinda-quasi-big self-promoted unsigned band I know of is Painted in Exile, and I am 99.99% sure they have not sold anywhere near 10,000 albums, much less at $10 each. Not to mention there are actual EXPENSES to being in a band and recording your own music. There was a mini-discussion about this topic on the "Alex's guitars got stolen" thread too. And here's something more in depth from the guitarist/singer of the band Oh, Sleeper (a band SIGNED to Solid State Records, the same label as Sky Eats Airplane):



Shane Blay's Facebook said:


> Why Mid-Level Bands Cannot Make Money.
> by Shane Tecumseh Blay on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 at 3:35pm
> Hey Everyone,
> 
> ...



Bottom line = non-huge "heavy" bands are broke as shit.


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## Xaios (Jan 29, 2011)

TreWatson said:


> I play occasionally at my mom's church and it pulls in a little bit of scratch
> 
> but honestly
> 
> financially, musicians are a step above the homeless.



You get money for playing at a church? 

I've been playing at churches for 8 years and I've never gotten a dime.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 29, 2011)

pineappleman said:


> _Very sad and correct information_
> Bottom line = non-huge "heavy" bands are broke as shit.



This is very sad and true


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## TreWatson (Jan 29, 2011)

Xaios said:


> You get money for playing at a church?
> 
> I've been playing at churches for 8 years and I've never gotten a dime.



it's not much, but we're hired musicians.

for playing for like 4 weeks, i make maybe 100 bucks. and honestly i dont mind that.

the way to make money in the music industry is to have a job, plain and simple. haha

Edit: I'm also a theory student of Dr. Thomas Delaine, which kinda carries a little bit of clout (though not a ton)


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## Mindcrime1204 (Jan 29, 2011)

search an old thread of mine called "how much money do metal bands make in a year"

pretty good read also


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 29, 2011)

You will not make money playing what you want to play.


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## lookralphsbak (Jan 29, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> You will not make money playing what you want to play.


I forgot what the statistic is but it might be 1/20 bands will not make it. Think of how many new metal bands have made it big (major label status). Granted most major labels are signing metal bands I can only think of 2 that are actually making enough to play music full time without needing a job... Lamb of God and Mastodon. I guess KSE is a major label band since they RR was bought out but I know Adam has more than 1 band and Howard and Adam do production for a lot of bands. Regardless, very few bands can survive 100% on music without having to play 300+ days a year. Last year I saw Warbringer 5 or 6 times in NYC through out the year.


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## Demiurge (Jan 29, 2011)

Is it just me, or has the dream scenario of "discovered and signed by a large record label" simply just been replaced by the same dream of "meteoric rise to success not because of touring but because of the internetz"?

Every few years, I stumble-upon that Steve Albini "The Problem With Music" essay, which kind of throws water on the average band's aspirations of making it big (or making even a little money) back in the pre-home-recording-and-internet-distro era. It's kind of dated now, but I can definitely see some variation of it eventually surfacing that addresses what's happening now.


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## Explorer (Jan 29, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> I think if you go into it with the attitude "you wont make any money" then you probably wont.



Even better, look at it like this:

If you go into it with the attitude "you will make lots of money" then you be one of the majority of bands who *still* don't make lots of money, or even a living wage.

Magical thinking won't manifest those big payoffs; there are huge amounts of people who think they will make money, but still don't. 

Those bands who make big money performing are the exception (maybe 1% or less of all bands who start out with the idea of making it), and nowhere near the rule.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Jan 29, 2011)

Like me probably... selling gear for more gear because you have no money lol.


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

lookralphsbak said:


> Last year I saw Warbringer 5 or 6 times in NYC through out the year.



I've seen After The Burial, I think, 9 times since 2009 and I've missed them coming through the Austin/SA area twice.


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## pineappleman (Jan 29, 2011)

Demiurge said:


> Is it just me, or has the dream scenario of "discovered and signed by a large record label" simply just been replaced by the same dream of "meteoric rise to success not because of touring but because of the internetz"?



Pretty much.


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## TravisMontgomery (Jan 29, 2011)

Spacepants, since you mentioned us in the original post I thought I might as well chime in .

I make pretty much nothing being in Threat Signal. You could make more in one month at a regular job than I do from the band in one year. We all have day jobs when we come home tours.

Threat Signal seems like kind of an exception....even though I'm in the band I kind of see the band as being the definition of epic fail haha. Our business/management team behind us has ruined the band thus far in my opinion. I think the band should be a bit further along than it is at this point. As in having a bigger fan base, bigger shows, etc. We're changing a lot of things about the band for the third album (sound, management, etc.), so hopefully this will give us the push we really need.

So....if you are planning on being in a metal band then don't expect to make much money, if any for a while!!


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

TravisMontgomery said:


> Our business/management team behind us has ruined the band thus far in my opinion. I think the band should be a bit further along than it is at this point. As in having a bigger fan base, bigger shows, etc. We're changing a lot of things about the band for the third album (sound, management, etc.), so hopefully this will give us the push we really need.



Damn, I had no idea. Here's hoping the new changes will bring better possibilities to you guys.


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## TravisMontgomery (Jan 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> Damn, I had no idea. Here's hoping the new changes will bring better possibilities to you guys.



Yeah man. That is one thing people really need to look for and research if they are planning on being in a band too.

Our manager is an entertainment lawyer that well....also manages us. His boss, Chris Taylor, has managed bands such as Sum 41, Nickelback, Nelly, Three Days Grace, Alexisonfire, Billy Talent, etc. So it's not like we're with bad management or anything....just bad for us! You need to find the right team for your band. 

I remember a meeting we had last year about things we need to do for Threat Signal. We brought up that metal fans really like to see the technical aspect of the playing, and that we need to be getting in magazines like Guitar World, in games like Guitar Hero, etc. Their response was "Really?? Do people actually want to see that stuff? Doesn't seem like it would help you much....but we'll look into it". I believe that we're the only metal band with TMKO/Last Gang, and it has kinda of hurt us being with a company thats main focus is pop/rock bands.


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## mountainjam (Jan 29, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Even better, look at it like this:
> 
> If you go into it with the attitude "you will make lots of money" then you be one of the majority of bands who *still* don't make lots of money, or even a living wage.
> 
> ...



The majority of people that think they will make it huge, and don't probably never had any real talent to begin with and were in it for the wrong reasons. And im not talking about magic here, but much greater things than being in a semi succesfull band have been achieved by determined people. I think a big factor nobody is considering is a large portion of the most talented musicians don't want to live the lifestyle, so they go other directions and we are stuck with shitty music from so many un-original bands. I guess my main feeling on this is if you really are talented at music, dont start out with such lowered expectations.


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## MTech (Jan 29, 2011)

Glad Travis chimed in here cause I knew from talking to him before it was like that for awhile...especially growing up with their old drummer. Which Travis at least you are 21+ now so they won't kick you out of venues after sound check and before/after you play!! 

But while you guys are on it even huge bands have that issue till (and if) they get their shit straight. When Linkin Park had just blown up with their 1st album and One Step Closer was all over the place they were only making $150 a gig after all their expenses.... When you're doing the metal thing like so many of the bands people on broads like these seem to think are making bank really they're barely making anything and a lot of the time their Tour Manager and even sometimes the techs are being paid even more then each band member.


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## Explorer (Jan 29, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> The majority of people that think they will make it huge, and don't probably never had any real talent to begin with and were in it for the wrong reasons. And im not talking about magic here, but much greater things than being in a semi succesfull band have been achieved by determined people. I think a big factor nobody is considering is a large portion of the most talented musicians don't want to live the lifestyle, so they go other directions and we are stuck with shitty music from so many un-original bands. I guess my main feeling on this is if you really are talented at music, dont start out with such lowered expectations.



I won't disagree that there are many people who are in bands who don't really have the talent and uniqueness of vision.

So, let's narrow that down a bit: How percentage of musicians/bands would *you* say were genuinely talented, and went into it with the idea that they would make it... and failed? 

And, to take one of your driving points... if there was a track record "a large portion of the most talented musicians" not wanting to live the "lifestyle"... what do you mean by "lifestyle?" Are you possibly saying that there is a financial aspect to trying to make it? 

Going further, are you also acknowledging that, even after investing all that time into it, they might not make it, as talented as you yourself are saying they are? 

----

I have to admit, I'm curious about one last thing: Would you say you yourself are talented, and driving towards success? If so, it would be interesting if you let us know what band/group you play with, so we can see the results of your words in actions. It would be a nice contrast with those members here who have posted about the opposite experience... assuming, of course, that you don't think they're not talented, or that their stories of trying to break through and failing are untrue.

Cheers!


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## scottro202 (Jan 29, 2011)

Infinity Complex said:


> If you really want to make some dough playing music, sell out.



I'm curious as to what you guys's definitions of "selling-out" is. 

For instance, if say, Justin Bieber (You can replace him with any well-known pop star), called me up tomorrow, and asked me to play guitar in his band for the rest of eternity for a bagillion dollars a note, I wouldn't call that selling out so much as getting a good paying gig


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## severussnape (Jan 29, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> I think if you go into it with the attitude "you wont make any money" then you probably wont.
> look at it like this. There are several self recorded and self promoted bands online that are selling albums. If you can sell 10,000 albums at $10 each, that's $100,000, plus shows and merch. Now that's def not close to making it big, but its far from homeless. Just my opinion...



Ok. So you have 100 grand.

Out of that comes fees for the studio, the producer, any "hired guns", cost of those 10,000 cd's, plus production of them.

My composition teacher broke down costs to us in class one time. I forget most of the figures, but basically, just making a record, preproduction, with no label support, can leave you nearly destitute if you aren't already financially secure.


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## gunshow86de (Jan 29, 2011)

Once you get that record deal, you're guaranteed to make a milly.


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## Lon (Jan 29, 2011)

severussnape said:


> Ok. So you have 100 grand.
> 
> Out of that comes fees for the studio, the producer, any "hired guns", cost of those 10,000 cd's, plus production of them.
> 
> My composition teacher broke down costs to us in class one time. I forget most of the figures, but basically, just making a record, preproduction, with no label support, can leave you nearly destitute if you aren't already financially secure.


yes... here are 2 routes, first one: do everything yourself (the bulb way),

second one: do nearly everything yourself, we recorded everything, we edited everything, we did all the organizing, we just sent the tracks to get professionally mixed and mastered for a fairly cheap price, and it turned out really well... if i multiply the costs for lets say a 12track record you get into the 3-5k figures, considering when starting out usually everyone has a dayjob this is easily provideable by 4-5 people.

I do not include stuff like computers or guitars in my costs because for real, you would have that stuff anyway...

*My point short:* if you're a touring musician, your finances are wrecked, but there is no big "starting out" hurdle you have to jump anymore, thanks to the internet and homerecording you can do a decent to outstanding record on a very limited budget.

This of course leads to other points (read: business) are getting way more important. Everyone has semi-decent recordings nowerdays, you have to get promotion, PR, contacts and everything else right to get somewhere, but i see this in a positive light because this trend sheds more emphasis on the quality of the music. For example im very surprised Painted In Exile is so successful with their sound


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## KimtheButcher (Jan 30, 2011)

I've been in and out of live bands for a few years now, and i've just gone bankrupt since last week  

We were playing twice a week and pulling about $350 AUS each gig for the group for 2-3 hours of playing; over 3 sets for each night. For me, it was only enough to cover the travel and maintenance of my gear - perhaps a packet of smokes left over after the gig and a beer or two. 

In My Opinion, you do it for the love of playing music and spreading the word, and any $$ that comes from that is a huuuuuuuuuge bonus


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## CynicEidolon (Jan 30, 2011)

Want to get successful being a musician!? Quit reading everyone else's idea on what they think it takes and go get your feet wet. It sucks at first but, EVERY business does. I read somewhere that that average business takes 3 years to turn profit. If it takes longer... Close the doors. Move on. You suck.


Stop reading this.


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## Dead Undead (Jan 30, 2011)

Nearly everyone I know in my area who is a lifelong musician (most of which have toured and recorded under both record labels and self-produced records) says that it's really hard to make money doing this kind of thing. But the one they do say is, if you do decide to tour professionally, FUCK RECORD COMPANIES. They will bend you over the table, tear your pants off and shove an exploding pineapple up your bum. They cheat you in ways you never thought possible. It's actually better to get a day job and then a small part time job offering lessons or something to get going first, then start producing your own stuff. Or you could be a YouTube star. But that doesn't count for shit really.
Maybe 20-30 years ago you could get more attention with the style of music you wanna play, but not now. Nobody has any desire for creativity, they all crave mediocrity and simplicity, simply because the majority is comprised of dumbshits.

Good luck.
May the force be with you.
Live long and prosper.
And if you ever get to be as big as Dream Theater, send me some cash every now and then, okay?


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## Lon (Jan 30, 2011)

including me


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 30, 2011)

Stand? I would use the word crawl.


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## Andromalia (Jan 30, 2011)

mountainjam said:


> I think if you go into it with the attitude "you wont make any money" then you probably wont.
> look at it like this. There are several self recorded and self promoted bands online that are selling albums. If you can sell 10,000 albums at $10 each, that's $100,000, plus shows and merch. Now that's def not close to making it big, but its far from homeless. Just my opinion...



Those 100K: 

-Have to cover expenses, gear, etc
-Have to be split between band members
-Do not go into your pocket directly anyway if you're a starter band with no technological background to do the recording yourselves.

That would be more or less true if you do a 100% online distribution and do all the jobs yourself in a free studio without any techs or sound guys.
Rule 1: when you start you don't make ANY money off CD sales. (Or shouldn't expect to, anyway, there are exceptions, but...they are exceptions, doh.)

Now, "musician" can mean a lot of things, if you are good enough to give lessons and actually have people come back for the second one and have enough pupils, you can get by.
If you mean "touring guitarist in only one band playing th3 Br00talz", you most likely can't, at the start anyway, barring special geographical considerations.


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## Grimriffer (Jan 30, 2011)

From a Frank Mullen interview
*
What is something that you know now that you wouldnt have admitted to yourself at 20, when you were going into this? *

I dont know. I look at everything that weve done, and I look at it like Ive enjoyed every aspect of it. Even from the early days of touring in the vans and box trucks and everything like that. All these shows weve played in front of all our fans. I dont know. I probably wouldnt change anything. I dont know if Ive learned much. One thing is that you still dont make tons of money. [Laughs] Thats one thing that Ive definitely learned. You go from maybe playing for free or $200 or $300 a night to now, we can make some money, but its still nothing like where youre like, You could have a feature of me tomorrow on MTV Cribs and Ill show you around my crib and I got all these cars that Im gonna show you. Its not like that.

link 

_WEB-EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: SUFFOCATION_


Despite my guitar skills I'm still a simple university student who lives with his parents and my mom wants me to find a wife. Uncool. But I have a dream that one day... never mind my dream sucks.


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## LamaSabachthani (Jan 30, 2011)

pineappleman said:


> Bottom line = non-huge "heavy" bands are broke as shit.



Unless you're any of the big-names that headline festivals, it makes sense: the more esoteric types of music (read: most ERG music?) are unlikely to be mainstaging Download Festival not because they don't rock and aren't great musicians but because they literally do not appeal to most people and therefore make less money than those other bands can.

It's unfortunate but it's an inescapable truth: music that is more easily accessed (not in terms of physical availability) will always be 'bigger' than the sort of stuff most people on this site are into.

I guess at the end of the day you question whether or not you're content to be money-poor but lifestyle-rich if you can wake up every day and go out and make money (somehow) by expressing yourself and playing guitar. That is my ideal vision haha. As regards music, anyways...


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## LamaSabachthani (Jan 30, 2011)

Grimriffer said:


> From a Frank Mullen interview
> *
> 
> 
> ...


*

haha you may have just summarized my current existence *


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## LamaSabachthani (Jan 30, 2011)

pineappleman said:


> Pretty much.



Do record labels even go out searching for people with A&R and sign them anymore like used to happen? And do people even bother mailing record companies their material anymore? It seems like the internet has superseded that entirely.

For the better? Perhaps...


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## DevinShidaker (Jan 30, 2011)

My band has sold a cumulative 40,000 records since 2009, which is big for a metal band. Nobody has seen a penny from any of those sales. We make a decent amount of money on the road, but it all gets pumped back into gas, management, tour management, merchandise, debt, etc. Any money we do make pretty much goes to pay a cell phone bill, or it goes towards buying new gear we need. In the '90's and before, music was a lucrative business, but with music piracy, the economy, and the over-saturation of bands that are considered "big", there's not enough money to go around to pay everyone. Somebody working minimum wage makes a TON more money than I do. It's sad, but I love playing so I deal with it.


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## Bobo (Jan 30, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Stand? I would use the word crawl.



Oh I thought the word was sink.


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## Ntbillie (Jan 30, 2011)

There was a report on this once. And I actually don't have the link anymore. But You gotta keep into consideration mann. That nomatter how many albums a Band sells. There are ALWAYS costs We people ignore,which the Band bears. Example Record Sales commission, Record company share,equipment managers,advertising Etc. But alotta Musicians make alotta $$ from their Endorsements. Huge guitar companies say..like Ibanez. Pay their artists in millions just to make their artists stay put. A huge example would be Mick Thomson. He left B.C.RICH for Ibanez. Not that I'm pointing any brand in specific. But a new Band which has a good record company might make on average 40,000$ per record. And Touring is a separate story. But Bands make much more from touring then Albums:Fact. My point is that, You won't make money if You start a Band with the purpose to make money. Just see Adtr's example for say. When they started out nobody knew they existed. And look at where they are now,in just 1 year. A Band has many income openings and many expenses they need to cover. Just go a quick search and You'll find that Tosin Abasi and all the other members of Animals as Leaders are now offering on tour lessons. This way they can share their expertise with people who love their music. And get a decent amount of income for themselves..


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## DevinShidaker (Jan 30, 2011)

Ntbillie said:


> There was a report on this once. And I actually don't have the link anymore. But You gotta keep into consideration mann. That nomatter how many albums a Band sells. There are ALWAYS costs We people ignore,which the Band bears. Example Record Sales commission, Record company share,equipment managers,advertising Etc. But alotta Musicians make alotta $$ from their Endorsements. Huge guitar companies say..like Ibanez. Pay their artists in millions just to make their artists stay put. A huge example would be Mick Thomson. He left B.C.RICH for Ibanez. Not that I'm pointing any brand in specific. But a new Band which has a good record company might make on average 40,000$ per record. And Touring is a separate story. But Bands make much more from touring then Albums:Fact. My point is that, You won't make money if You start a Band with the purpose to make money. Just see Adtr's example for say. When they started out nobody knew they existed. And look at where they are now,in just 1 year. A Band has many income openings and many expenses they need to cover. Just go a quick search and You'll find that Tosin Abasi and all the other members of Animals as Leaders are now offering on tour lessons. This way they can share their expertise with people who love their music. And get a decent amount of income for themselves..



You are mistaken about that endorsement statement. The only way you actually make money off of an endorsement is if you have a signature guitar for sale, you make a percentage off of that. Other than that all you get is free gear or a discount. I have an Ibanez endorsement, and they have the right to use my image/name for any marketing purposes in exchange for a certain number of free guitars over the course of my contract. After I get my free stuff, I get a slight discount on things from them. I'm not complaining because I love Ibanez and everybody that I work with, but as far as money is concerned, they don't pay me or any other artist that doesn't have a signature model.


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## The Reverend (Jan 30, 2011)

I think if you wanna be a musician professionally, playing the music the majority of us are talking about, you need to get used to being broke. How many times have you seen really good bands on tour, begging for a place to sleep and shower? That should be a hint as to what their finances are like.

My plan is to go to college, get my degree, than try and play music for as long as I can. No wife or babies for me, at least not until I feel like I've accomplished what I want to in music. After that, I'll go work in a cubicle, designing video games for Bratz.


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## ultranoob (Jan 31, 2011)

sometimes it isn't always the best idea to try and make a living out of your favorite thing to do. Meeting expenses means pressure on your creative force, which can be positive or negative, depending how you look at it. Letting your passion be free of such demands, however, may let you thrive more. Make your day-job your second favorite thing to do, and love making music without the headaches of the industry.


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## Jexey (Jan 31, 2011)

Sometimes you got to bust your ass somewhere else to make it possible to do what you love. Money's a bitch but sadly it's not one we can divorce!


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## GH0STrider (Jan 31, 2011)

It would certainly be wise to have another source of income. Many musicians I know that do it for a career are also guitar teachers. They have the flexability to still be in a band and tour. Not to mention, technology has made teaching guitar anywhere possible so you aren't always losing students/income. At then end of the day you have to explore all avenues but understanding your "career" choice in music should be founded on passion, not the drive for money is crucial.


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## Explorer (Jan 31, 2011)

It should be fairly clear at this point that the average performing musician isn't getting rich. Adding a side job, whether teaching music or working elsewhere, isn't about performing, and there are music teachers who *don't* perform, of course, so the fact that teaching may or may not teach a particular subject is irrelevant to it being different performing. 

Hopefully, the OP now has some fairly good perspective, brought to the table by those members of SS.org who are or have been performers. Mountainjam still hasn't posted about his/her particular success so far, so I don't know if that will bring up the average, but even with one success story which goes far beyond the rest, it still won't do much to outweigh everyone else....


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## MTech (Jan 31, 2011)

Ntbillie said:


> But alotta Musicians make alotta $$ from their Endorsements. Huge guitar companies say..like Ibanez. Pay their artists in millions just to make their artists stay put. A huge example would be Mick Thomson. He left B.C.RICH for Ibanez. Not that I'm pointing any brand in specific. But a new Band which has a good record company might make on average 40,000$ per record.



This is exaggerated... millions is a huge overstatement. Most bands just get cheaper or free gear and that's it...once you get into sig model territory or you've got a big name then it's a bit different but not remotely as much as you're thinking.
The way most endorsements work is one of the following ways.
1: Percentage Off
2: Free Gear
3: Free Gear + Signing Bonus (Usually happens when you see guys leave one big brand to the next)
4: Free Gear + Sig Model Royalties & Possibly signing bonus (Usually happens when you see guys leave one big brand to the next)
5: Tons of Free Gear and Big Big Money... Tens to Hundreds of thousands is more realistic though there are some that get ridiculous money to be with certain company.

Some companies build their entire image this way as they hand pic certain artists... I know two old associates I had were at a certain well known groups show and supposedly heard the guitarist throwing a tantrum outside. They got to talk to the drummer and asked what the deal was and he explained they had something happen with their gig and were not paid what they usually get so the guitarist was pissed... They heard the guitarist make the remark "I get paid more in one payment from *company that supposedly doesn't pay artists* then we got for the show.


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## matisq (Jan 31, 2011)

envenomedcky said:


> My band has sold a cumulative 40,000 records since 2009, which is big for a metal band. Nobody has seen a penny from any of those sales. We make a decent amount of money on the road, but it all gets pumped back into gas, management, tour management, merchandise, debt, etc. Any money we do make pretty much goes to pay a cell phone bill, or it goes towards buying new gear we need. In the '90's and before, music was a lucrative business, but with music piracy, the economy, and the over-saturation of bands that are considered "big", there's not enough money to go around to pay everyone. Somebody working minimum wage makes a TON more money than I do. It's sad, but I love playing so I deal with it.



Men. I know your band (as I believe almost anyone on this forum do), and it's really shitty that even you don't have some good money. I hope at least your gear is sponsored by companies like Peavey, Ibanez etc. 
BTW: I'm fallen in love in deathcore since I heard you band


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## KimtheButcher (Jan 31, 2011)

I made a post earlier, but...

If you have a dream, you fucking live to recreate that dream, yeah? I may be hell drunk, but really....who here is playing music to make money? Who anywhere, makes art, that is shared with the public, to make money? Is it about making money, or is it about sharing our awesomeness with others so they can feel the same way about our awesome tunes that we do?

Also - i am an endorsed artist as well - all that means to me, is that i have the best luthier in Australia, if not the world (Stewart Custom Guitars) supporing me as an artist, and it means they as a figurehead believe in my art the way i do. 

Do we really think that pop music, written by 50-year-old men still living with their parents, for "artists" like what is culminated by the top-50 charts, is our dream? That aint my dream, fo' sho' \m/

I write music to grow as a musician and to try and help others feel the same passion for music, and metal, as i do. I currently have 1100 or so Reverbnation fans, i live with my GF and have no job....but hey. I'm playing music. I'm growing as a musician and engineer, and people are loving it. I hope i am helping people to feel the same as what i feel when i hear an awesome tune..

I guess what i am trying to say is that are we really doing this to make money, or is this a passion of ours (all) that we wish to share with the world? 

I hope this makes sense! I'm off my tits atm...perhaps this is a naive POV, but...

Peace and brutal technical death metal \m/


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## DLG (Jan 31, 2011)

KimtheButcher said:


> I currently have 1100 or so Reverbnation fans, i live with my GF and have no job....but hey. I'm playing music. I'm growing as a musician and engineer, and people are loving it. I hope i am helping people to feel the same as what i feel when i hear an awesome tune..


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## Loomer (Jan 31, 2011)

Hahahaha, this thread makes me less than optimistic about having joined a pretty serious band with a lot of gigs lined up


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## Varcolac (Jan 31, 2011)

DLG said:


>



If I had Steve Buscemi on bass and Adam Sandler on the drums, I wouldn't _need_ money.


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## jymellis (Jan 31, 2011)

envenomedcky said:


> In the '90's and before, music was a lucrative business, but with music piracy, the economy, and the over-saturation of bands that are considered "big", there's not enough money to go around to pay everyone. t.



this is not entirely true  i played in a few bands and we where lucky to get 50 bux a night to split up between members (or pay the bar tab with). not to mention self promotion was a joke (no internet, everything was word of mouth, and getting a "quality demo" out was $$$$$$$


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## drmosh (Jan 31, 2011)

Ntbillie said:


> There was a report on this once. And I actually don't have the link anymore. But You gotta keep into consideration mann. That nomatter how many albums a Band sells. There are ALWAYS costs We people ignore,which the Band bears. Example Record Sales commission, Record company share,equipment managers,advertising Etc. But alotta Musicians make alotta $$ from their Endorsements. Huge guitar companies say..like Ibanez. Pay their artists in millions just to make their artists stay put. A huge example would be Mick Thomson. He left B.C.RICH for Ibanez. Not that I'm pointing any brand in specific. But a new Band which has a good record company might make on average 40,000$ per record. And Touring is a separate story. But Bands make much more from touring then Albums:Fact. My point is that, You won't make money if You start a Band with the purpose to make money. Just see Adtr's example for say. When they started out nobody knew they existed. And look at where they are now,in just 1 year. A Band has many income openings and many expenses they need to cover. Just go a quick search and You'll find that Tosin Abasi and all the other members of Animals as Leaders are now offering on tour lessons. This way they can share their expertise with people who love their music. And get a decent amount of income for themselves..



I have no idea where you get your info but you are so so wrong about the endorsements. Maybe Mick Thompson will get some cash along with his deal, but you really think the average musician will get any handouts from an endorsement deal?
We used to get percentages off a few things back when we toured, and our drummer had a longer standing deal with tama drums but he never got anything free even when he went on to tour with bigger bands.


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## WickedSymphony (Jan 31, 2011)

KimtheButcher said:


> I guess what i am trying to say is that are we really doing this to make money, or is this a passion of ours (all) that we wish to share with the world?



I wish it could be all about sharing our passion with the world, but sharing your passion doesn't necessarily put food in your stomach and a roof over your head for the staggering majority of artists out there. I'd love to play music for a living, but I'm going to school for something else because I know that there is a very, very slim chance of ever being able to live comfortably off of that, and I DO want to be able to support myself and stand on my own two feet.


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## Chickenhawk (Jan 31, 2011)

scottro202 said:


> I'm curious as to what you guys's definitions of "selling-out" is.
> 
> For instance, if say, Justin Bieber (You can replace him with any well-known pop star), called me up tomorrow, and asked me to play guitar in his band for the rest of eternity for a bagillion dollars a note, I wouldn't call that selling out so much as getting a good paying gig



Would you enjoy playing the music?
Would you consider it a 'challenge'?
Would you grow as a musician because of what you were playing?

Answer no to those, and you've sold out.

The question I feel sums it up:

Are you sacrificing your musical integrity for a paycheck?

I didn't sell out playing country, because I thoroughly enjoyed playing the music. I don't think I sold out playing pop music, because I had fun with the bass lines, and made them complex, and challenged myself with them (I didn't make shit for money, either).

I, personally, feel music should push you. It should challenge you. In some way; technicality, emotion, groove, feeling, etc. Once it stops being challenging, or enjoyable, and you're only doing it for the money: You've sold out.

But, to each their own. I'm not here to judge...just label


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## DevinShidaker (Jan 31, 2011)

jymellis said:


> this is not entirely true  i played in a few bands and we where lucky to get 50 bux a night to split up between members (or pay the bar tab with). not to mention self promotion was a joke (no internet, everything was word of mouth, and getting a "quality demo" out was $$$$$$$



I meant as far as bands getting "huge" went, if I band had made it onto MTV, they were generally making money. Get played on headbangers ball now, and all you get to do is say "cool, I was on MTV". I've been playing shows since before myspace came around, so I know all about doing self promotion the hard way. I've hung up my fair share of flyers and passed out more than enough shoddily recorded demos around my city


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## DLG (Jan 31, 2011)

Varcolac said:


> If I had Steve Buscemi on bass and Adam Sandler on the drums, I wouldn't _need_ money.



I ain't fartin on no snare drum!


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## kmanick (Jan 31, 2011)

the internet has completely changed the music biz (for the worse IMO).
Piracy, overexposure and market saturation of 1/2 assed talentless bands make it difficult for bands with real talent to make it.
the music biz is also a "business"
how many people in bands here ever even think about their "target demographic"?
don't got one? I quote "You're so set to fail" 
You think Taylor Swift ever has to beg someone for a place to sleep on the road?
metal is a tough sell, screaming vocals just don't go over with the general public. without massive airplay on the radio and TV it's almost impossible to become "rich" 
by being a musician.
look at someone like Billy Ray cyrus.
dioes anyone here on this forum realize that this guy has sold over 9 million albums world wide? (Billy ray fucking Cyrus) 
How many metal bands outside of Metallica can say that these days.
shit 1 million would be outstanding.
if it ain't radio friendly and it doesn't appeal to the 'chicks" you ain't going to get rich.
Look at NickelBack.  I'm not a fan of their music (at all) but they are some smart mofos.

Quick quiz # 2.
what was the highest grossing rock act on tour in 2010???
Bon fucking Jovi. that's right Jon Bon Jovi and company.
Nevermore????
Arch Enemy????
Dream theater????
nope
all turds in total salesa compared to the "marketable" performers.
# 2 higest toruing act of 2010
U2.
Ok you guys starting to figure this out yet?
without media like MTV pushing real metal bands thye just don't get the huge public exposure needed to make real money.
If bands like Motley Crue, Ratt, Dokken,really any of those 80's hair metal bands came out now without MTV pushing their videos 20 times a day they'd have never gotten anywhere near as big as they did.
It really is sad, the Internet is so good in so many ways, but it has been a god awful thing for the music biz.
You want to be a rich musician.
Write music that gets played on Nickelodean. 
the 9-16 year demographic is huge in US.
those artists are making money.
It's a sad truth.


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 31, 2011)

ittoa666 said:


> Unless you have a radio hit or two and you play large venues 100% of the time, you have no money basically. The music business just has no love for challenging, technical, or heavy music. I hate to be that guy, but it's the truth. It's a hard thing to make a lot of money doing.



The unfortunate truth. Look at an absolute wizard like Ron Jarzombek, I bet he wallpapers or plasters on his days off just to make money. Probably the most talented musician I can think of that does not have a major label deal, and he simply cannot get the musicians together to record all of his musical ideas, and what he does record likely does not sell in vast quantity.

It doesn't matter how good you are, unless you make something accessible you are unlikely to make much money from it. I remember reading an interview with Cannibal Corpse years ago (2001-ish perhaps) when they said they finally were in a position to quit their jobs that they worked when off-tour and concentrate on the band as their sole sources of income. For a band that is today the biggest selling death metal band ever, that's pretty shocking. More than 13 years ploughing time and money, having "big" record deals (for a DM band) and only then were they making enough to quit regular work. Even now, they will not be rich or living luxurious lifestyles by any means. Biggest death metal band on the planet.

Chances are, even if you make something a lot of people would pay to hear, you are still one in a million trying to get that out there. Good luck, don't give up on real work. To many musicians I know of are "trying to make it", and not making any money, not having jobs, and then realising they have to enter the real world, and they have a shite CV with no real work experience and several wasted years when the competitors they face for jobs have real CVs. Sitting in a job interview saying "Yeah, that gap between highschool and now...I was trying to make it in a band, it didn't happen, can I have the job?" is not going to cut it. 

It's tough but if you go into the process of attempting to make a living out of being a band, if you don't go in with your eyes completely open you could well find yourself coming back down to earth with a bump!


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## Guitarholic (Jan 31, 2011)

envenomedcky said:


> You are mistaken about that endorsement statement. The only way you actually make money off of an endorsement is if you have a signature guitar for sale, you make a percentage off of that. Other than that all you get is free gear or a discount. I have an Ibanez endorsement, and they have the right to use my image/name for any marketing purposes in exchange for a certain number of free guitars over the course of my contract. After I get my free stuff, I get a slight discount on things from them. I'm not complaining because I love Ibanez and everybody that I work with, but as far as money is concerned, they don't pay me or any other artist that doesn't have a signature model.



Devin is so right.

It's crazy how many misconceptions there are about endorsement deals. I really recommend reading this article written by Tim McKee (head of the A&R department at Mesa/Boogie): Tim McKee from Mesa Boogie talks endorsements | Mark LaFay Dot Com


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 31, 2011)

Another thing I just thought of, all these guys saying "make $100,000/£100,000 from record sales, split it 4 ways, deduct merch costs, tour bus, hotels etc" and at the end each member gets maybe £3000 tops, you have to deduct national tax. You might have just earned £3000 as your cut of your bands record and merch sales over the last year, but then the taxman will deduct another 22% or so as tax, then another few percent for national insurance deductions, and then anoter 8% or so in council tax, you what really goes into your pocket is only maybe £2150 or so out of £3000. In reality your monthly income is something like £170. Tax is going to hit your income hard, so factor that into your figures!

Unless of course, your total income is below £7000 per annum or whatever the lowest payable tax bracket is, in which case you will be so broke they won't even bother asking you for tax money anyway. Earning less than £7000 a year is great money if you are living at home and in full time education, but if your full time occupation is music, you are in a band selling 10,000 albums a year (good luck with that if you are independant!) and you are not even making enough from that to be asked pay tax, in the words of Mos Def, "You best find a new grind to get green" because you will not be making a living from that line any time soon.


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## Steve08 (Jan 31, 2011)

Esp Griffyn said:


> The unfortunate truth. Look at an absolute wizard like Ron Jarzombek, I bet he wallpapers or plasters on his days off just to make money. Probably the most talented musician I can think of that does not have a major label deal, and he simply cannot get the musicians together to record all of his musical ideas, and what he does record likely does not sell in vast quantity.


Nah, I'm pretty sure he's a full time musician as he teaches quite a bit in Texas in addition to playing a lot with a few different cover bands to my knowledge. The money he makes is hardly glamorous, though, for sure.

Which goes back to something I mentioned when this thread was started, it is MUCH easier to get money from stuff like that than just playing in a band.


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## DaveCarter (Jan 31, 2011)

Whilst a lot of it has been covered already, here's an old thread with a lot more info: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/77616-how-much-money-do-metal-bands-musicians-make-year.html

As a VERY rough guide based on record/ticket sales to represent fan size:

If youre selling in the 1,000,000s then you'll be rich.
If youre selling in the 100,000s you'll get by.
If you're selling in the 10,000s you'll be broke.
If you're selling in the 1,000s you'll probably spend more on the band than you earn from it, depending on recording/touring costs.

Generally, modern metal bands will never sell above the 10,000s, and most wont even get that far. Bands like Bullet For My Valentine, Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium etc probably do quite well, but theyre very mainstream and very marketable; they dont make money because theyre great musicians, they make money because they have major labels behind them and a huge number of people like their brand (music, image, artwork, the whole package).

Here's a few examples that I found in interviews when I was researching this issue, before I eventually decided that metal is best left as a hobby to work around a real job. Some people dont mind being flat-out broke so long as theyre doing a job that they love, but Im not one of them!


*Opeth* have been together for 20 years, signed for 10, over here theyve sold out the Royal Albert Hall in London, and headlined the main stage at the 10,000-person Bloodstock festival. Each member earns about £14,000/year. Thats as much as a supermarket shelf-stacker, for a Roadrunner band that have made about 10 albums and have been going for 20 years. For the first 10 years they made nothing.

*Arch Enemy* sell 200-300,000 of each album, have been together 15 years, signed for 10 of those, and each member earns about £8,000/year from the band. The minimum wage here is about £10,000/year.

One of the guitarists in *Nile* still works in Pizza Hut.


Bottom line is 99.9% of metal bands make fuck all, and those that do make money dont do so because theyre 'good', they do so because theyre extremely marketable and popular enough to generate huge incomes from merch and touring. Unless youre happy to live in relative poverty for the duration of the band's career, keep it as a hobby. As Scott Hull has proved, its still possible to work a well-paid, full-time job, and still have enough time to be in a metal band that can sell nearly 100,000 records, make about $20,000/year in merch and play some major festivals and a few shows in your time off work. Sounds like a good plan to me


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## great_kthulu (Jan 31, 2011)

I have talked with gunface from the red chord about this, he said about 3 months on the road allows one to live for a little under a month comfortably. So if you stay on the road 9 months out of a year, you can scrape by.


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## DaveCarter (Jan 31, 2011)

Depends where youre living too. A lot of signed bands that I know are still living at home with their parents, which helps to keep the costs of living down, as does having a family that supports you financially. By the way, I forgot to include the links to references that back up the facts/figures in my post above, so shout if anyone wants to see them, I wouldnt post things like about about bands without having heard/read it from the artist themselves.


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## Nociceptor (Jan 31, 2011)

I think if you really look at people who ARE successful on a long term basis as a musician, you will find that most of the financial success comes post-fame. This is not to say that fame=fortune, but rather fame is a platform off which money making ideas get credential. And it doesn't have to be rock-star fame, just credible sources of praise from more than one group of people willing to pay you to perform some service which you have some supposed expertise in.

Case studies:
David Bowie
Trent Reznor
Devin Townsend

The common factor among these people...age.

It takes time to build a career, and music is certainly no exception. The market is saturated, and the people responsible for moving the money around are not held accountable by any government. 

The best strategy is based on probability, not formula. Do the research, educate yourself, build sincere relationships that are mutually beneficial, and don't sign anything unless there is some sort of payoff. But most importantly, BE CREATIVE! These are fundamental to any business, big or small. A day-job is a necessity for anyone trying to get their own business off the ground. You will sacrifice sleep, lifestyle, and in some cases your sanity. But there is always hope, and if no one ever tried because the odds were stacked against them, we wouldn't have cool films like 300 to watch 

Nevermind the 300 thing...that was gay. I shouldn't have said that. But I like that movie.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 31, 2011)

Spacepants said:


> How are musicians now financially?



Depends on what they do for a job that will earn them money.


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## Clydefrog (Feb 1, 2011)

I remember a few years ago, the members of Iced Earth were asked how they get by. They all had day jobs. I remember one message Jon sent out one day (maybe 5-10 years ago), stating that he was FINALLY making enough to stop being a waiter.

A WAITER. Almost 20 years in to a very respectable career as a musician.

Look, if you're wanting to make money off of this sort of thing, you're going to have to sacrifice so much that it's probably not even worth it. I do what I do just because I love music, and anything I make ON THE SIDE from my HOBBY, great.


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## DLG (Feb 1, 2011)

the moral of this thread: stay in school kids!


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## The Reverend (Feb 1, 2011)

A question that I think really needs to be answered here is are any of you guys in bands that tour and make even a little bit of money (like enough to pay a monthly cell bill) happy with where you are, and the money you make?

It seems like a silly question at first, but I know from personal experience that just because you've started doing something, and love doing it, doesn't mean you'll recommend it to others without some serious warning.


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## DLG (Feb 1, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> A question that I think really needs to be answered here is are any of you guys in bands that tour and make even a little bit of money (like enough to pay a monthly cell bill) happy with where you are, and the money you make?
> 
> It seems like a silly question at first, but I know from personal experience that just because you've started doing something, and love doing it, doesn't mean you'll recommend it to others without some serious warning.



^that all depends on the kind of person you are and what your life goals are. 

Personally, I'm much happier playing in a band on my off-time, making music I want to make just as a release, not a career goal, gigging when I can, while at the same time not living in my mom's basement, having enough money to go on vacations, buy new gear and not eat ramen noodles every night. 

Too some people, living in a van for half the year and scrapping by is worth it because they are playing music and that's what they love, but me personally, I have two albums out, a couple bands, I make music with my friends during the weekends and after work, and I would never consider sacrificing my financial security and quality of life for chasing a pipe dream.

Living comfortably from metal is like winning the lottery, literally, those are your chances.

Look at Dream Theater. They are a big band by any standards, you'd think they can fuck around a bit and enjoy life, yet still, they need to keep pumping out albums, and they need to stay on the road...why? Because the house payments, car payments, school tuitions won't pay themselves.


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## aslsmm (Feb 1, 2011)

well id say that because most bands keep touring and playing the same songs over and over, its safe to say that the money is not what it appears to be or it takes money to tour. korn has been doing small venues for the last 2 years now. it seems like a way for them to make money. and id say that they are as big as a heavy band can get. the smart musicians that get big, get into producing.


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## DLG (Feb 1, 2011)

aslsmm said:


> well id say that because most bands keep touring and playing the same songs over and over, its safe to say that the money is not what it appears to be or it takes money to tour. korn has been doing small venues for the last 2 years now. it seems like a way for them to make money. and id say that they are as big as a heavy band can get. the smart musicians that get big, get into producing.



don't lose sleep over korn, dude. They have several platinum albums, they probably tour out of fun at this point, or they spent all their money on blow.


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## The Reverend (Feb 1, 2011)

Well I'm not necessarily talking about making a lot of money here. I'm fully aware that they only people making serious money in music are mainstream artists. I'm just wondering if, for those musicians still living at home and sharing a van with a bunch of dudes 6 months out of the year, is it worth it to you? And would you tell someone else to do that?

I have other plans for my life that focus on some of my other passions, but I'd like to pursue music, even if not in a financially successful way. Just part of wanting to live a full and varied life, I guess.

So if any of you can offer some insight, go for it.


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## aslsmm (Feb 1, 2011)

DLG said:


> don't lose sleep over korn, dude. They have several platinum albums, they probably tour out of fun at this point, or they spent all their money on blow.


 

well what ever they spend their money on while touring i guess could be considered touring expenses. lol


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## DaveCarter (Feb 1, 2011)

I think the fact that they choose to be broke by being in a full-time speaks for itself; if they werent happy doing it then they just wouldnt do it. Any minimum-wage job will pay more than being in the average metal band, so its not like theyre doing it because they have to, they do it because its what they love doing.

Since you asked if people in bands would recommend it to others, Guthrie was asked what his advice was to kids who wanted to be professional musicians, and he said "Dont do it, it all ends in poverty and tears!". He then gave a serious answer about developing technique, but for his initial reaction to be on monetary grounds I think says something. As does this reaction from Dave Pybus: YouTube - Cradle of Filth Interview with Dave Pybus (2 - 2) skip to 5:50.


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## Ntbillie (Feb 1, 2011)

drmosh said:


> I have no idea where you get your info but you are so so wrong about the endorsements. Maybe Mick Thompson will get some cash along with his deal, but you really think the average musician will get any handouts from an endorsement deal?
> We used to get percentages off a few things back when we toured, and our drummer had a longer standing deal with tama drums but he never got anything free even when he went on to tour with bigger bands.




The guy who called Me a retard really hurt my feelings. ="( Anyways..Okay sorry I should've mentioned that a FEW EXCEPTIONS receive money. Sorry. But as far as I know..alotta companies pay their artists in huge amounts just to make them stay put. Although it's true that royalties are only gives on Signature models. An abundant amount is paid to good reputable musicians who have international recognition. and here I will mention 'NOT ALL MUSICIANS'..It's more like an image thing. The bigger the artist The bigger the endorsement deal.


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## Fisch MIOLI (Feb 1, 2011)

Being in an unsigned has its pros and cons. My bands first tour with I Declare War was ten days long. IDW was getting 150 a night. We asked for 75. Most of the time we didn't make that. I would say the average amount we got from the booker was probably $40. Which went straight into the gas tank. We did however do surprisingly well on merch sales. 

I don't know, it just might be me coming up from the hardcore scene but money is never a big issue. As long as we can put enough gas in the tank to make it to the next show, we are good. You become pretty good at stealing food from grocery stores.


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## drmosh (Feb 1, 2011)

Ntbillie said:


> The guy who called Me a retard really hurt my feelings. ="( Anyways..Okay sorry I should've mentioned that a FEW EXCEPTIONS receive money. Sorry. But as far as I know..alotta companies pay their artists in huge amounts just to make them stay put. Although it's true that royalties are only gives on Signature models. An abundant amount is paid to good reputable musicians who have international recognition. and here I will mention 'NOT ALL MUSICIANS'..It's more like an image thing. The bigger the artist The bigger the endorsement deal.



I dunno who gave you that rep, but that's uncalled for. Have some counter rep from me.

HOWEVER, you are still totally wrong in your assessment. A lot of companies DO NOT give their artists money to stay put, we are talking about a very select few artists that everybody knows and already associates with a particular product.


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## Ntbillie (Feb 1, 2011)

drmosh said:


> I dunno who gave you that rep, but that's uncalled for. Have some counter rep from me.
> 
> HOWEVER, you are still totally wrong in your assessment. A lot of companies DO NOT give their artists money to stay put, we are talking about a very select few artists that everybody knows and already associates with a particular product.




Haha Thanks mate. I thought maybe You did. Anyways..Yeah I guess I shouldn't have brought this up. Since I dint realize that the thread was mostly discussing about newly established Musicians. I'll look for the link if I can find it..Which is where I read that artists like John-5 and Mick Thomson have paid endorsements. And every good word they put out for the Brand is usually paid for. I'll just end this now. =p by admitting I shouldn't have made my comment in the first place. Sorry for any misconceptions. Cheers.


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## misingonestring (Feb 1, 2011)

Original, creative music with odd time signatures and shred guitar: Doesn't chart ever, no money.
Replace odd time sig with 4/4 and shred guitar with power chords: Sometimes charts, sometimes make some money.
Replace instruments with drum machine and samples: Charts, makes shit load of money.

At least that's what_ I_ think.


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## BuriedAlive (Feb 1, 2011)

yeah it takes YEARS and tons of hits to become a band like metallica, or the rolling stones or any huge band. but when you start out watching interviews and seeing different bands, they don't really have money at all. I watched an interview with Born Of Osiris and they were getting 10$ a day to eat, or buy cigerettes or whatever they need.


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## cantripvox (Feb 1, 2011)

Has anyone ever stopped to think, "Why is the maker of the sell-able product making the least amount of money in the food chain?"

Why do we, as musicians, allow our products to be placed in a market where only the venues and promoters are making the money while we are told that we couldn't sell our shit without them? And make no mistake, they are making A LOT of money!

I'm not sure about other states, but in Texas, when unsigned, local metal bands book shows, they are told that they might have to play for free unless they bring over a certain amount of people to the show.

As an example: a first time band wants to book a show. The venue says, "Okay, you can play on Thursday night. You won't get paid, no matter how many people you bring, but if you bring at least 35 to the show, we'll book you again on a weekend, opening slot."

Then, if you do that, you get booked on a weekend and told, "Okay, we will pay you $3 a head IF more than 20 people say they are there to see you. But you have to pre-sell 50 tickets @ $15/per or you don't get to play the show AND you have to give up the money for all the tickets you did sell, even if you don't reach your quota."

Granted, they aren't asking for a percentage of your merch sales at that point, but after being thoroughly raped, you are lucky to have money to buy merch. I have known bands to pay up to $300 just so they could play a show with a signed band they like..FOR FREE!

The fact is the venues do not care what a band sounds like, whether they are good, bad, unique, etc. They only care about how many people you bring to the place. The problem is that they rely on the bands to promote their business without lifting a finger to promote themselves. Country, Jazz, Pop, and other types of bands get guarantees for like $300-$600 a show with no requirements other than showing up and playing music.

The difference is they have to audition. The venue is hiring them to entertain people who will already be there. Metal clubs act like the mafia while pretending to be bars. They let any shitty metal band on the stage, no matter what they sound like, in the hopes that all of their friends from school will show up to see them this one time. And these young bands eat it up because all they want to do is get on stage. Kind of like trying to get laid for the first time. 

This is our own fault. We have allowed this to happen because there is this mentality of instant success that pervades the genre of metal. We think that all it takes is one certain type of person hearing the music and liking it, and then dollar bills fall from the sky.

One day, maybe we will stand up for ourselves and start investing in our own businesses and stop handing over all the profits to people just because they tell us we have to. If they don't have a product to sell, they make no money. WE MAKE THE MUSIC! THE MUSIC IS THE PRODUCT. We must learn to do things for ourselves. It will take a grass-roots movement and people with influence who are willing to stick out their necks and stand up for the little guy.

Things happen when people unite. Metal heads love their bands. We would have an army at our disposal.


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## mountainjam (Feb 1, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I won't disagree that there are many people who are in bands who don't really have the talent and uniqueness of vision.
> 
> So, let's narrow that down a bit: How percentage of musicians/bands would *you* say were genuinely talented, and went into it with the idea that they would make it... and failed?
> 
> ...


I just don't think your getting my point. I realize the majority of musicians are broke, im only trying to say its possible to make money if you can find the right approach through vision, originality, and raw talent. Can you honestly tell me the majority of music is original and unique while still being appealing to a semi large audience? Personally I don't think so, most bands jump on the "bandwagon" (no pun intended) to some degree. And I think when a awesomely talented group comes along, they are appealing to a small niche market, not big enough to make money. I personally have great respect for a band such as mastodon. They have genuine raw talent, they are original, yet they write music that still appeals to larger crowd, and have achieved large succes without ever selling out.. And since you asked about me, I could be the best or worst songwriter in history, but its irrelevant because I've chosen not to try. I don't like traveling, living on the road being away from home and my friends and family for extended periods of time. That's what I mean when I say not choosing the lifestyle.


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## DLG (Feb 1, 2011)

just think about it though, if it didn't work like this, we would never have shit like Strapping Young Lad, that comes out of angst, depression and being broke as shit. 

Dev was a 19 year-old kid who got a gig with fucking Steve Vai, he must have thought that all his prayers have been answered and he was going to live the high life from then on. 

After being in LA, making videos, promoting a big album, touring the world, he comes back to Canada and he's broke and feels like he's worse off than when he started. 

these feelings are channeled into music and SYL is born. 

So be thankful that metal is still about being gully and broke, that's the way it should be. When it leaves that state of mind, you start getting hair metal and/or Avenged Sevenfold, so thank your lucky stars.


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## DaveCarter (Feb 1, 2011)

cantripvox said:


> Has anyone ever stopped to think, "Why is the maker of the sell-able product making the least amount of money in the food chain?"



That would be because:



cantripvox said:


> Why do *we, as musicians, allow our products to be placed in a market where only the venues and promoters are making the money *while we are told that we couldn't sell our shit without them? And make no mistake, they are making A LOT of money!



Afraid you kinda answered your own question. It happens because bands do allow it, simple as that. The metal market is totally saturated, far too many bands around competing for not enough metal fans. From a promoter's point of view there's often no reason to pay a band much, if anything, because there's always going to be other bands around who will do it for cheaper, or for free. If both bands are bringing the same number of fans to the show then its just good business sense to book the cheaper band.

Example: When I was in my last originals band, we were never paid more than £50, which barely covered petrol, and that was if we bought a lot of people. At the same time my pub-covers band was going out for £300 without having to bring anyone. So I tried to set a basic price of £100 to book my originals band, the result: we didnt get booked anywhere til we dropped the booking fee. The promoters knew that they could just call another local band who could bring just as many people and werent going to ask to be paid.

If we were pulling in 200 people to every gig, then we'd have had some punching weight and could demand a fair booking fee, but that pretty much sums up what for me is the number one rule of being successful in the music industry: _"It doesnt matter how good your are, or how hard you work, its how many people like what you do (enough to pay for it)"._ You'll have more luck if you _are_ a good band and _do_ work hard, but without a lot of people who like you, it counts for nothing as far as the industry is concerned, its essentially one big popularity contest.


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## dream-thief (Feb 2, 2011)

What is irking me a bit is that there are plenty of disparaging comments on here, saying you'll never make it, there's no money, etc. (excuse my slight exaggerations) and plenty of people saying you could make money if you 'sell out', or play music that is non-metal, but very few comments saying that in a lot of cases, they are one and the same thing.

If 'X' can make enough money to get by (just while on tour, and have another job for the rest of the year), and works for the love of music, why do they have to be playing metal? There's thousands of artists in every other genre with any kind of underground scene in exactly the same boat. Granted it is worse for us, but metal's been working class music since it began, deal with it.

To be honest, if you're alive enough to post on this forum, it's obviously going well enough for you. If you need more financially, then yeah, by all means, do something else as well, or even just do something else.

There are hundreds of ways to make money in the music industry (as has been said) and touring metal isn't really one of them. Seeing as the music industry is devolving (or more realistically, 'developing') so quickly, I think it'll be a fun ride to go with it and see where it takes us. Very few of the ways we make money in western society are time-tested, to the point where the word 'guarantee' becomes completely arbitrary. I realise if there was a place for whinging about money issues related to playing metal on the internet, that this would be it, but hardly merits the amount of dissuasive talk this thread offers. I have nothing against a touch of realism, it just seems this thread is getting a little too repetitive.

As for piracy (one of the general public's main concerns about the collapse of the business), wouldn't record labels be better of hiring even one person to each label, part time, to trawl the net and remove material where it needs removing?

I'll stop there.


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## drmosh (Feb 2, 2011)

Ntbillie said:


> Haha Thanks mate. I thought maybe You did. Anyways..Yeah I guess I shouldn't have brought this up. Since I dint realize that the thread was mostly discussing about newly established Musicians. I'll look for the link if I can find it..Which is where I read that artists like John-5 and Mick Thomson have paid endorsements. And every good word they put out for the Brand is usually paid for. I'll just end this now. =p by admitting I shouldn't have made my comment in the first place. Sorry for any misconceptions. Cheers.



Applying what you know about artists like Slipknot to everyone is a little far fetched you have to admit. Established or not, bands like slipknot cannot be compared to the likes of Meshuggah in terms of cash flow.


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