# Tame feedback without killing tone??



## Daetros (Jun 6, 2018)

I could really use some help getting a good amp sound.

I'm using 2 amps: Randall Satan 120w and Victory Kraken 50w

Both amps are considered "high gain" and are designed to push killer amounts of power, but it's impossible for me to use them in any live or studio environment unless I pull the gain back to 50% on the Satan (with a noise gate at the line in) and 25% on the Kraken (with a noise gate at the line in AND the effects loop).

I'm not sure if I'm the only person on the planet with this problem but Google hasn't turned up any helpful information.

Signal chain (for either amp) is as follows:
Guitar > Decimator G Ch1 > TS9 (0 gain, tone at 3:00, volume at 3:00) > Amp (Decimator G Ch2 in loop) > Mesa Cabinet (8 Ohm)

I have tried removing the TS9 and it reduces some noise/hum but doesn't seem to affect the feedback in any meaningful way and I lose the desired boost and shaping.

I can slam the noisegate on the Decimator and I lose the feedback along with half my tone, half my gain and any hope of a harmonic or any mid/low volume sound.

For the record, the feedback I'm talking about is an aggressive surge of mid frequency ring/feedback following any input from the instrument, particularly after a palm mute. With the noisegate set aggressively the surge cuts off after about 0.5 to 1 second but it's still extremely disruptive/distracting.

I watched and tried to follow Ola's "how to dial in a Satan amp" video on YouTube but his step 1 is to set Girth and Grind to noon and Gain to Max, then adjust to taste. If I do this I get a huge amount of hiss and amp noise and unbearable feedback, so it hasn't really been a helpful starting point.

I have already replaced several of the pre-amp tubes with no noticeable effect.

Please help!!!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 6, 2018)

Grab a rack parametric or graphic EQ and hunt for the problem frequency. Think of it as using a fine scalpel to get rid of the problem, versus the chainsaw you're using now by removing parts of your rig, etc.

Additionally, have you tried different guitars and cables? Is this only happening in your practice space, or other locations too? How close to your amp are you playing? What exactly are your settings?


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## TedEH (Jun 6, 2018)

Daetros said:


> Gain to Max


I'm only being half sarcastic, but it seems like if you max out your gain on a high gain amp you're going to get feedback.

Other possible culprits: Pickups, preamp tubes, the acoustics/shape of the room, etc. But realistically, if you've got gates everywhere and it still feeds, maaaaaaaybe you've got too much gain.


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## Daetros (Jun 6, 2018)

Alright I'm an idiot and don't know how to quote apparently, but in regards to running at full gain:

Yeah I was mentioning the unhelpful advice Ola gave in his "dialing in the Satan Amp" video. I have never actually tried to use the amp at full gain. I'm shooting for 40-50% max.


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## Daetros (Jun 6, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Grab a rack parametric or graphic EQ and hunt for the problem frequency.
> 
> Additionally, have you tried different guitars and cables? ...



A rack EQ is on my list of immediate upgrades. It's good to have some reinforcement that it may be useful beyond just shaping!

I have tried other guitars and although the settings have to change dramatically between them the feedback remains a similar issue.

I have swapped out almost all the cables for whirlwind and mogami (I know, overkill) trying to chase this down.


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## budda (Jun 6, 2018)

Is it spring ring? Do you get feedback on clean at high volume (while remaining clean)? That one would mean its a resonant frequency thing. Also check if your pickup is microphonic.


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## tedtan (Jun 6, 2018)

Daetros said:


> For the record, the feedback I'm talking about is an aggressive surge of mid frequency ring/feedback following any input from the instrument, particularly after a palm mute.



Is this actually feedback that is occurring or are you getting some ringing because the strings aren't muted after a palm mute? Try lifting the left hand fingers off the frets, but still muting the strings while also muting with your right hand palm.

Also, could it be the trem springs ringing like budda mentioned? You may need to silence the springs by putting something inside or over them to dampen them and keep them from ringing.


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## Daetros (Jun 6, 2018)

tedtan said:


> Is this actually feedback that is occurring or are you getting some ringing because the strings aren't muted after a palm mute?
> 
> Also, could it be the trem springs ringing like budda mentioned?



It is definitely not strings ringing out. It's distinctly a feedback sound and happens even after laying a flat palm over all strings at the bridge and neck.

It's a fixed bridge instrument so I don't think there is an opportunity for noise from the bridge.

It seems like the most likely culprits are excessive volume at the proximity and angle relative to the instrument. I'm going to work on adjusting both and see if it returns a more positive result.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Jun 6, 2018)

Lowering SPL is the best method in most cases. Many bands can't fathom the idea of doing so, but it works. Rather than a couple of 4x12's behind you, consider a 2x12 firing in from the side like a side fill. Your soundman will love you for this too as he now has more at his disposal to make ya'll sound great, but you'll be able to hear yourself pretty much anywhere on stage.


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## Mike (Jun 7, 2018)

One of the better setups I've used for taming feedback but not killing tone is with linked decimator II's. The proper way you're supposed to run them is with 1 decimator last in your FX chain prior to any reverbs/modulation, then the other decimator as your very first pedal in the chain out in front. This lets the fx loop decimator act as a master filter and directly track your guitars pure signal so it doesn't cut that off and you're able to maintain sustain and harmonics, while still controlling noise and feedback. 

I myself feel like I'm in a never ending battle with eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I still don't quite understand it cause I swear sometimes I think to myself that's not even enough/that much gain and then one of those little squeals will rear it's ugly head.


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## tedtan (Jun 7, 2018)

Daetros said:


> It seems like the most likely culprits are excessive volume at the proximity and angle relative to the instrument. I'm going to work on adjusting both and see if it returns a more positive result.



If its definitely feedback, then I think you're on the right track to try experimenting with volume reduction and/or positioning yourself differently in relation to the speaker(s).


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## Sogradde (Jun 11, 2018)

What's your guitar/PU setup? How close are the pickups to your strings? Are they waxed properly? (as budda said, are they microphonic?).
Live should not be an issue as you should never crank your amp live period. Everything is usually mic'd these days and if it's not, the venue is bad and your sound will be crap anyway.


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## budda (Jun 11, 2018)

Sogradde said:


> Live should not be an issue as you should never crank your amp live period. Everything is usually mic'd these days and if it's not, the venue is bad and your sound will be crap anyway.



Doom bands and post-X bands want a word with you


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## Sogradde (Jun 11, 2018)

budda said:


> Doom bands and post-X bands want a word with you


I thought they had crap sound on purpose? :^)


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## DudeManBrother (Jun 11, 2018)

I’d be checking one amp at a time to see which one is the culprit, and I’d start with pre amp tubes. A large (30 band) EQ is excellent as well, especially if it is a room resonance that’s the culprit, but too much feedback with multiple guitars sounds like a tube issue.


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## Cynicanal (Jun 12, 2018)

Sogradde said:


> What's your guitar/PU setup? How close are the pickups to your strings? Are they waxed properly? (as budda said, are they microphonic?).
> Live should not be an issue as you should never crank your amp live period. Everything is usually mic'd these days and if it's not, the venue is bad and your sound will be crap anyway.


I realize you're in Germany and things are different there, but in the US, pretty much every club is shit enough that they're not going to have a decent PA (they might mic you up but they're going to use a $10 microphone and put you through a broken mixing board into a broken PA), so cranking your amp so the audience hears your stage sound is basically mandatory.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 12, 2018)

Sogradde said:


> Live should not be an issue as you should never crank your amp live period. Everything is usually mic'd these days and if it's not, the venue is bad and your sound will be crap anyway.





Cynicanal said:


> I realize you're in Germany and things are different there, but in the US, pretty much every club is shit enough that they're not going to have a decent PA (they might mic you up but they're going to use a $10 microphone and put you through a broken mixing board into a broken PA), so cranking your amp so the audience hears your stage sound is basically mandatory.



Neither one of these things is accurate. Sometimes you need your cab to carry the room even with a "decent" sound system because the difference between quiet enough to force the PA to carry it means losing what makes your amp tone work. Or you're in a punk/hardcore/garage rock band that plays lots of basements and DIY venues so cranking it up is mandatory. And LOTS of bands in various genres use volume to great effect. 
And most places that I've seen/played that are geared toward live music are going to have a PA and monitors and someone relatively competent manning the equipment. If you're playing in a basement or whatever, you wouldn't expect a real sound system anyways.
To me it sounds like you're running SOMETHING too hot in the chain. I mean 50% gain on the Satan is PLENTY for just about anything. Can't say with the Kraken as I've never played one.


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## djordan (Jul 24, 2018)

What other's have mentioned regarding EQ is commonly called "ringing out the monitors" from a sound guy's perspective - I never actually thought to do that from the guitar side when I was gigging through a 5150 stack. However, I did have good luck with a rack mount noise gate, I think it was a Rocktron Hush Super C. Additionally, somewhere along my metal journey I started turning my gain *down*, leaning my pick in, and really attacking the strings with my picking hand when I wanted some "chug". Hope that helps!

+100 to using your amp as a side fill


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## Lemonbaby (Jul 24, 2018)

Mute the strings at full gain - still got feedback? Change the PUs...


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## knobknob (Sep 13, 2018)

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here. 
1. Facing your pickups towards the amp will make that happen in my experience. 
2. If on the satan, try turning down your presence. I had a 6505+ some years ago that would also make these sounds. (I know exactly what you mean because I too noticed it happening with the chugs like you described) Looking back on it, I believe it was from having mids trebs and presence all pretty high.


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## Hollowway (Sep 16, 2018)

I have no help for you (though, I'm watching this for ideas), but I AM curious about what you think about the Kraken vs the Satan. I've been eyeing a Kraken for some time. PM me, if you like - or maybe start a thread with your thoughts. I think a lot of us would be interested!


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## BornToLooze (Sep 16, 2018)

Are you playing in a room with florescent lights? When I had a 6505 I'd usually keep it in my dad's jam room and it was so damn noisy I bought a noise gate for it and that barely helped. Everywhere else I played it I didn't have a problem with it, even when I had it running hot enough that I could hear my watch ticking through the amp. I've played live in places that had florescent lights, and I swear, it seems like the higher the ceiling was, the less noisy my amp was.

I might be crazy, but florescent lights fuck with tube amps somehow.



TedEH said:


> I'm only being half sarcastic, but it seems like if you max out your gain on a high gain amp you're going to get feedback.
> 
> Other possible culprits: Pickups, preamp tubes, the acoustics/shape of the room, etc. But realistically, if you've got gates everywhere and it still feeds, maaaaaaaybe you've got too much gain.



Every time I've got feedback from an amp with a shit ton of gain that wasn't easy to control it was from shitty pickups, an almost 30 year old solid state Peavey that had one foot in the grave, or like I said florescent lights.


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## knobknob (Sep 16, 2018)

BornToLooze said:


> Are you playing in a room with florescent lights? When I had a 6505 I'd usually keep it in my dad's jam room and it was so damn noisy I bought a noise gate for it and that barely helped. Everywhere else I played it I didn't have a problem with it, even when I had it running hot enough that I could hear my watch ticking through the amp. I've played live in places that had florescent lights, and I swear, it seems like the higher the ceiling was, the less noisy my amp was.
> 
> I might be crazy, but florescent lights fuck with tube amps somehow.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. My tube amps scream at me at my rehearsal more than anywhere else and the lights there are fluorescent...


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## axxessdenied (Sep 21, 2018)

does the guitar have a trem on it?
could be the springs in the back cavity


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## axxessdenied (Sep 21, 2018)

you'll want to tame any spot on your guitar that might resonate. strings behind the nut, trem springs if the guitar isnt a hardtail.
clean, isolated power to your pedals. Any ground loops will amplify your noise floor.
if you are running two amps then its even more critical to make sure you have no ground loop issues in your signal chain.


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## buriedoutback (Sep 24, 2018)

Daetros said:


> Signal chain (for either amp) is as follows:
> Guitar > Decimator G Ch1 > TS9 > Amp (Decimator G Ch2 in loop) > Mesa Cabinet (8 Ohm)



I'm not sure you can even do this with the g string model, but can you use it like the standard model?
like this : guitar > ts > gate > amp
That's how I run my regular isp gate and it works awesome. I still get amp hiss (5150) from the loop, but out front of the amp is tight and no feedback. If you can set the g string like that, it might be an interesting thing to try. 
ime having a ts last in the chain is noisy af.


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## Andromalia (Sep 29, 2018)

budda said:


> Doom bands and post-X bands want a word with you



They make us deaf so we will listen to them a second time, it's just marketing.


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