# Sakeido's World Music Moment - intense tabla and sitar shredding



## sakeido (Sep 23, 2007)

I'll do up one of these every week for the next three months. I don't know if anyone else here finds this kind of thing as interesting as I do, but there is some really crazy classical music from abroad out there.


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## Desecrated (Sep 23, 2007)

I like it, but I would have loved it with a 8 string guitar on top.


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## Mastodon (Sep 23, 2007)

Fucking sweet, keep 'em coming.


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## josh821 (Sep 25, 2007)

How 'bout some Vishwa Mohan Bhatt?

Oh yeah, or if you find a really good hammered dulcimer player. I've found some decent ones before but they're always people on the side of the road or something, never professionals.

I love this stuff though. I spend more time listening to world music and classical than anything else these days.


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## Apophis (Sep 25, 2007)

Nice


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## sakeido (Sep 26, 2007)

josh821 said:


> How 'bout some Vishwa Mohan Bhatt?
> 
> Oh yeah, or if you find a really good hammered dulcimer player. I've found some decent ones before but they're always people on the side of the road or something, never professionals.
> 
> I love this stuff though. I spend more time listening to world music and classical than anything else these days.



I'm actually taking it as an option at university right now  I took it just as a GPA booster, but it turns out it is really very interesting and my Western-schooled mind boggles at the complexities of middle and far Eastern music theory.


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## josh821 (Sep 26, 2007)

sakeido said:


> I'm actually taking it as an option at university right now  I took it just as a GPA booster, but it turns out it is really very interesting and my Western-schooled mind boggles at the complexities of middle and far Eastern music theory.



I always find it very interesting how people's ears develop in different cultures. It's like any sounds that are played frequently enough somehow evolve into something that we consider pleasant (like how 3rds were dissonant at one point as well as 7ths). We're just so used to hearing western scales, chords, and rhythms that when we hear Indian music or something out of the far east it sounds completely exotic. I'm sure to some extent our music sounds just as crazy to them.


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 26, 2007)

I LOVE Indian music! 

EDIT: Movable frets FTW!


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## garcia3441 (Sep 26, 2007)

ZeroSignal said:


> I LOVE Indian music!



Me to also.  

(Along with Arabic music.)


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## sakeido (Sep 27, 2007)

josh821 said:


> I always find it very interesting how people's ears develop in different cultures. It's like any sounds that are played frequently enough somehow evolve into something that we consider pleasant (like how 3rds were dissonant at one point as well as 7ths). We're just so used to hearing western scales, chords, and rhythms that when we hear Indian music or something out of the far east it sounds completely exotic. I'm sure to some extent our music sounds just as crazy to them.



I am not so sure about that. It is very easy to adapt our music into their systems (from what I have learned so far) but much more difficult to adapt their music to ours, since we do not have fractional steps like they do. If anything, they might be floored by how simplistic and uncomplicated our music theory is


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## Kotex (Sep 27, 2007)

What's a good cd to pick up if I wanted to get more into this?


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## garcia3441 (Sep 27, 2007)

Kotex said:


> What's a good cd to pick up if I wanted to get more into this?



Putumayo offers collections from around the world.


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## ZeroSignal (Sep 27, 2007)

garcia3441 said:


> Me to also.
> 
> (Along with Arabic music.)



Same again!


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## josh821 (Sep 27, 2007)

sakeido said:


> I am not so sure about that. It is very easy to adapt our music into their systems (from what I have learned so far) but much more difficult to adapt their music to ours, since we do not have fractional steps like they do. If anything, they might be floored by how simplistic and uncomplicated our music theory is



I disagree that our theory is simplistic comparatively, although there's no real objective way to figure that out. I would just consider how extremely difficult it can be for me to explain musical ideas to friends of mine who are not musicians. Even the things that seem very easy to grasp for me can be difficult for them because they don't think about music in that way. Wouldn't it be the same for someone who thinks of music but only in non-western ways?


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## sakeido (Sep 28, 2007)

I really would argue that our system is more simplistic. I think that the incredible amount of permutations possible in other world music systems is because most of them have not or did not until recently develop a system of writing their music down, while we have been recording our music for centuries now and have been thinking in the same musical alphabet for almost as long as we have been writing down our music. I would think that if by consistently learning music by ear for generations upon generations and having as diverse of religions and beliefs as there is in the East that would just add to the complexities of the music those societies would develop. 
Conversely, here in the West we have been mostly consolidated under one or two very powerful religions for a long time (and they have vast influence on the development of music in a society) and have been moving towards complete homogenization for centuries, so we just didn't have the opportunity to develop musically like some other cultures have.


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## abyssalservant (Sep 28, 2007)

josh821 said:


> I always find it very interesting how people's ears develop in different cultures. It's like any sounds that are played frequently enough somehow evolve into something that we consider pleasant (like how 3rds were dissonant at one point as well as 7ths). We're just so used to hearing western scales, chords, and rhythms that when we hear Indian music or something out of the far east it sounds completely exotic. I'm sure to some extent our music sounds just as crazy to them.



*chuckles* Indeed. I listen to harsh noise as relaxing music . . . well, except for that one NTRLWRM EP *shuddertwitch* which is too harsh even for me.
Really, the musical context shifts my definition of dissonance. For example, if one goes along playing nice folky tonal, triadic music and suddenly throws in a harsh b5, I go "Ergh, dissonance, guh!" but if I'm hearing blasts of white noise and high-pitched sine waves, the b5 comes off as sounding like a natural harmony.

One thing you'll note as far as comparing eastern and western musical systems: the core difference is emphasis. Western music emphasizes harmony, and eastern music emphasizes melody. Perhaps an oversimplification, but if you're not worried about proper doubling in multivoice counterpoint and avoiding too much parallel motion, it's easier to worry about quarter-tones and the like.


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## josh821 (Sep 28, 2007)

sakeido said:


> I really would argue that our system is more simplistic. I think that the incredible amount of permutations possible in other world music systems is because most of them have not or did not until recently develop a system of writing their music down, while we have been recording our music for centuries now and have been thinking in the same musical alphabet for almost as long as we have been writing down our music. I would think that if by consistently learning music by ear for generations upon generations and having as diverse of religions and beliefs as there is in the East that would just add to the complexities of the music those societies would develop.
> Conversely, here in the West we have been mostly consolidated under one or two very powerful religions for a long time (and they have vast influence on the development of music in a society) and have been moving towards complete homogenization for centuries, so we just didn't have the opportunity to develop musically like some other cultures have.



I have to admit I don't know enough about their music theory to make a good argument here. I would look to western folk music though to make up for the somewhat lack of variety in western sounds. Most of that music has never been written down and it seems that folk music from different countries, even when they're physically close, can very dissimilar. Of course I'm not sure if we're only talking about classical music or music in general.


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## yevetz (Sep 30, 2007)

nice


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## Kotex (Oct 1, 2007)

garcia3441 said:


> Putumayo offers collections from around the world.




Thanks dude.


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## Durero (Oct 1, 2007)

sakeido said:


> I am not so sure about that. It is very easy to adapt our music into their systems (from what I have learned so far) but much more difficult to adapt their music to ours, since we do not have fractional steps like they do. If anything, they might be floored by how simplistic and uncomplicated our music theory is





sakeido said:


> I really would argue that our system is more simplistic. I think that the incredible amount of permutations possible in other world music systems is because most of them have not or did not until recently develop a system of writing their music down, while we have been recording our music for centuries now and have been thinking in the same musical alphabet for almost as long as we have been writing down our music. I would think that if by consistently learning music by ear for generations upon generations and having as diverse of religions and beliefs as there is in the East that would just add to the complexities of the music those societies would develop.
> Conversely, here in the West we have been mostly consolidated under one or two very powerful religions for a long time (and they have vast influence on the development of music in a society) and have been moving towards complete homogenization for centuries, so we just didn't have the opportunity to develop musically like some other cultures have.



I think you have to be quite a bit more specific about where the simplicity & complexity lie. I think you're absolutely right that in terms of the sheer detail in both melody & rhythm Indian classical music makes Western European classical music sound very simplistic - like comparing a fine engraving to something made with those huge lego duplo blocks.

But the situation is reversed when you compare the elements of harmony and orchestration, which are developed to immense complexity and sophistication in Western music, and hardly at all in Indian music.


It's quite fascinating how different cultures develop their musical depth & complexity, but I don't think notation is much of an explanation of the differences between European and Indian musical cultures. I believe Indian musicians have had notation for longer than Europeans (Indian music is easily notated with their solfege-like system (sa re ga ma pa da ni sa) for melody, and their solkatu drumming language (onomatopoetic syllables for percussion sounds) for rhythms).

Personally I think the heavy emphasis on improvisation in Indian classical music better explains the amazing development of melodic & rhythmic detail and beauty, whereas improvising is not nearly as practical when you're trying to get large groups of people to play together in tightly controlled harmonies like a European orchestra or choir.



Edit: Jeez, I'm such a windbag I forgot to say - awesome post dude  I absolutely LOVE Indian classical music.






abyssalservant said:


> One thing you'll note as far as comparing eastern and western musical systems: the core difference is emphasis. Western music emphasizes harmony, and eastern music emphasizes melody. Perhaps an oversimplification, but if you're not worried about proper doubling in multivoice counterpoint and avoiding too much parallel motion, it's easier to worry about quarter-tones and the like.


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## jacksonplayer (Oct 3, 2007)

Durero said:


> I think you have to be quite a bit more specific about where the simplicity & complexity lie. I think you're absolutely right that in terms of the sheer detail in both melody & rhythm Indian classical music makes Western European classical music sound very simplistic - like comparing a fine engraving to something made with those huge lego duplo blocks.
> 
> But the situation is reversed when you compare the elements of harmony and orchestration, which are developed to immense complexity and sophistication in Western music, and hardly at all in Indian music.



Yeah, I think that's the crux of the matter, right there.

BTW, thanks for the post, Sakeido. You can really see why so many jazz players have been attracted to Indian classical music over the years.

Does anyone know if there is something akin to rock music in India? I know they produce lots of crappy dance pop music for all of those Bollywood productions, but that's certainly not what I'm thinking of. I imagine that musicians reared in that culture could do some interesting things in the rock or metal context.


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## sakeido (Oct 3, 2007)

We never got into Indian rock music. I know there is a scene over there, I read about it not long ago, but couldn't name a single band from it. I'm working on finding a good middle Eastern video for the next world music moment right now.


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## Durero (Oct 3, 2007)

sakeido said:


> I'm working on finding a good middle Eastern video for the next world music moment right now.


Awesome man, looking forward to it.


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## Kotex (Mar 28, 2008)

Check it


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## awesomeargos (Apr 4, 2008)

Sitar is cool in the way that the 6 string guitar is but as we are seven stringers I suggest you check out the Vina for some truly exponential mind expansion the Vina is the King of classical Indian musical instruments and was fashioned to imitate the sounds produced by the voices of the Gods that walked the earth at the dawn of time. Balishander (if i spell that right i am surprised but it should be close enough for you to find) has made some recordings that I have in my collection i used to play -exact copy-some of his 'easier' stuff on my extra slinky six string back when i was practicing 12 hours a day.The full metal no fret neck of the sarode is worth checking out as well, but the Vina is truly King.


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## stubhead (Apr 4, 2008)

Hammered dulcimer, huh? You probably mean white folks? This guy Tarun Bhattacharya kicks major ass:



He has a lot of CD's out, but the two I love are "Kirvani", a harmonic minor raga in D, and "Transcendence", Raga Kalavati in A mixolydian (major boogie scale).

khazana.com is a killer source for Indian music, way too many CD's - you have to filter or you'll go broke. The "father" of the Indian dulcimer is Shiv Kumar Sharma, he's played with McLaughlin on a few "Remember Shakti" CD's but not the best of them.



Do a YouTube search for "santur" and "santoor" and shit'll start popping everywhere. I _love_ the juicy incarnation of Remember Shakti, with that speedy guy U. Shrivinas playing the solidbody electric six-string mandolin:



Uh-oh, here's that song again!



"vicioustruth" has downloaded the entire Crossroads 2007 festival, including the good stuff from McLaughlin & Beck that didn't make the DVD. "bazonics" has a bunch of Shakti up, "La Danse Du Bonheur" from both Shakti (1977) and Remember Shakti (2000) are fucking _extraordinary._

SugarMegs Streaming Server has three Shakti concerts up, "JohnMcLaughlin2000-10-15", "JohnMcLaughlin2001-07-06", and "JohnMcLaughlinAndShakti1977-04-10".


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## ren (Apr 9, 2008)

guitar prasanna any one?
i bloody love indian music but most of the stuff i can get my hands on is more traditional music of northen india cept this guy

his stuff is so bloody melodic and the use of more southern(i think) indian styles on guitar doing bebop and other jazz what nots. carnatic music i think its called.

this is one guy to check out! i espcially like the stuff from *be the change* with wooten.

also another great band to check out is* laco tayfa*, some turkish jazz group. any one got any recommendations on good turkish music? classical or folk or
anyone with really nice melodic tunes to suggest? maybe some slow sarode pieces and stuff that i can try on fretless?


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## Ancestor (Apr 11, 2008)

Purty dang good. Dude is all over the neck, isn't he? Their meter is so nice and even. Very cool.


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