# Dune Fans?



## fenderbender4 (Jun 5, 2014)

Any Dune fans here? I read the whole series years ago but loved the first one the most. Probably read it 3 times. Always liked it more than Lord of the Rings. Just wish all the movies and miniseries didn't suck so bad.


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## shanejohnson02 (Jun 5, 2014)

Yep! I like the older movie (with Patrick Stewart) better than the new one (with Jeff Bridges). 

The books are on a whole 'nother level though. Movies just don't do them justice.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 5, 2014)

shanejohnson02 said:


> The books are on a whole 'nother level though. Movies just don't do them justice.


 
 And the biggest problem was that Dune had such a rich backstory that would be impossible to put it all onto film without ommiting parts. Even with David Lynch really trying by giving viewers booklets that add that info in the theatre, the last thing people want to do when watching a film is to read a booklet.  

I havent read the books in ages, nor have I fully finished anything post Children Of Dune... But the miniseries with James McAvoy wasn't too bad, still better than the afformentioned Lynch film. 

The games on the other hand were awesome.


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## wilch (Jun 5, 2014)

Loved the game, didn't mind the original movie, started watching a miniseries but don't remember why I stopped and don't remember much of it.


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## SKoG (Jun 6, 2014)

Yes. It's one of my favorite fictional universes. I read all the books years ago, even a bunch of the the prequels by his son and Kevin J Anderson in the early 2000s that weren't as good. Nevertheless I enjoyed those because I think I was treating them more like reference text for the backstory rather than looking for high-quality writing. 

It's been I while, I will check for new releases and maybe do some re-reads this summer.

I really hope someone could do it credit on film one day. Maybe JJ Abrams will look for a challenge after he gets tired of Star Trek and Star Wars


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## Explorer (Jun 6, 2014)

I did love the first book. I still have my big copy from Chilton Books (yup, the same guys who publish the automobile manuals after a complete teardown and rebuild of each vehicle *laugh*).

After that first book, I waded through the original Dune series (liking them less and less as they went on).

I played hooky with a bunch of coworkers when the movie came out, and we were all disappointed with the WTF weirding modules and the rain at the end. 

Then Heretics and Chapterhouse, which was just more WTF-ery, and the apparent end of Dune, because of Herbert's death.

Then, like 10 years later, through Houses trilogy, and then the War trilogy, and I was pretty much done. They felt like they were written just to make money. 

I know there are at least two more books out there based on Frank Herbert's notes, but I just can't bring myself to read them, because I know there is even more stuff being generated. I didn't think the later Dune books by Frank Herbert were very engaging, and the later books co-written by his son Brian just weren't up to snuff. Since the writing team has expanded what they were going to write, it's (IMO) just turning into one of the situations where there is a flood of material just to suck on the teat of the original trilogy's innovation. 

My recommendation? Read the first three books, and then just read summaries of the rest. Really. *laugh*

BTW, as weird as the Lynch movie was, I do own the long cut of it, and watched it a few weeks ago. It does have its charms, although what's up with the eyebrows? *laugh*


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## Captain Shoggoth (Jun 6, 2014)

Love the original book, need to read the others. Been meaning to watch the Lynch movie for years but still never have.



SKoG said:


> I *really hope someone could do it credit* on film one day. Maybe* JJ Abrams* will look for a challenge after he gets tired of Star Trek and Star Wars



 (IMO)


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## shanejohnson02 (Jun 6, 2014)

JJ Abrams would be a good choice. So would Ridley Scott.

Imagine for a minute, if you will, a Michael Bay sandworm?


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## pink freud (Jun 6, 2014)

I've read everything from the prequels that Brian Herbert wrote all the way through Sandworms of Dune. I haven't read anything written post-Sandworms because at that time (and still today) the story felt complete. Unequivocally the most epic saga I've ever read.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Jun 6, 2014)

I read the original trilogy when I was 13, and loved it, but I do agree with explorer, it sorta declined as it went on. I still think God Emperor was a masterpiece, however.

Personally, though, I prefer his WorShip Trilogy, that he co-wrote with Bill Ransom. So much better, imo. I got 2 of the books for christmas when I was 15, and found the 3rd on my 17th birthday at a Half Price Books, and it just blows Dune out of the water.

And Pink Freud, nothing that they've written happens post Sandworms, that is the chronological END to the series. The other books they're writing are getting shoved in other places, like between the original books, or between the War trilogy and the House trilogy


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## Xaios (Jun 6, 2014)

I actually like JJ's Trek (as someone who has been a Trek fan literally my whole life), and I think he'll excel at Star Wars. Dune, however, is absolutely the wrong franchise for him.

I can't watch the David Lynch film without snickering at absolutely everything. The mini-series from 2000, as well as the Children of Dune miniseries from 2003, is much better.

Ultimately though, I think that Dune's _ridiculously_ rich backstory was ultimately its undoing. After God Emperor of Dune, it really seemed to get lost in its own mythology. I didn't get very far into Heretics without thinking, "this is just getting weird," and then I stopped.


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## Xaios (Jun 6, 2014)

Explorer said:


> Then, like 10 years later, through Houses trilogy, and then the War trilogy, and I was pretty much done. They felt like they were written just to make money.


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## synrgy (Jun 6, 2014)

James McAvoy? Jeff Bridges? Did I miss a memo?

Did you both mean William Hurt, maybe?

I have kind of a love/hate thing with Dune. I love the overall story, the World-building, etc. That said, I find Herbert's writing style to be extremely tedious. I've always joked that I feel like it takes him 4 pages to describe a grain of sand.

The movie directed-and-disowned by Lynch was interesting - if not particularly good - and I thought the miniseries was marginally better, but both seem to miss the mark.

So basically, I'm in love with the idea of Dune, but I'm not a big fan of its execution, across the board.


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## Xaios (Jun 6, 2014)

synrgy said:


> James McAvoy? Jeff Bridges? Did I miss a memo?
> 
> Did you both mean William Hurt, maybe?



It was indeed William Hurt in the original. James McAvoy plays Leto Jr in the Children of Dune miniseries though.


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## synrgy (Jun 6, 2014)

Thanks! Shows what I know! I didn't realize there was a miniseries for COD.


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## Xaios (Jun 6, 2014)

synrgy said:


> Thanks! Shows what I know! I didn't realize there was a miniseries for COD.



It came out in 2003, and it really covers Dune Messiah along with Children of Dune. I actually think it's better than the 2000 Dune miniseries.


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## pink freud (Jun 6, 2014)

Xaios said:


> It came out in 2003, and it really covers Dune Messiah along with Children of Dune. I actually think it's better than the 2000 Dune miniseries.



The combined miniseries is decent, far better than the Lynch interpretation. It at least follows the books, instead of completely doing its own thing.


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## Xaios (Jun 6, 2014)

pink freud said:


> The combined miniseries is decent, far better than the Lynch interpretation. It at least follows the books, instead of completely doing its own thing.



Yeah, I've always taken the whole thing at once. It tends to become engaging as it go along though, which is why I say the COD parts are superior. The fact is, some parts of Dune make for pretty tedious watching. 

There's also a notable difference in the quality of the special effects. For example, the battle scene near the end of Dune after they breach the shield wall, the animation looks pretty damn wonky when the Sardaukar are fighting the Fremen.


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## Explorer (Jun 7, 2014)

I actually own but have never watched the Dune miniseries. Maybe I should find the CoD series and watch them over the period of a month. 

Right now though, I'm working my way through all 5 disks of my Blade Runner set, starting with the workprint. I've now watched everything except the Final Cut, and even watched the collection of deleted and alternate scenes, which are edited together to make a weird yet surprisingly complete alternate-world version of the film. I won't have time until Sunday to see the Final Cut, I suspect....


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## Skyblue (Jun 8, 2014)

I absolutely love the first book. Second one was good, and to be honest, that's where I stopped. A good friend of mine told me that no good would come out of reading further in, and I believe him... I'll just go back to reading Dune again every time I get nostalgic. 

Also, how are we not talking about this? 


Mick Jagger


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## Explorer (Jun 8, 2014)

Skyblue said:


> A good friend of mine told me that no good would come out of reading further in, and I believe him...



There was a book called The Wasp Factory by Iain Banks which was excellent up to the last two pages, which ruined the whole thing. 

So I ripped those two pages out and gave it to a friend to read.

Later that week, after midnight, my phone rings. It's the friend, who is outraged, that the last pages are missing. 

I tell him that he really doesn't want to read them.

More outrage ensues, so I agree to let him have the last pages.

And he reads them, and is upset at the book being ruined by the ending.

Then the incomplete book gets lent again.

More outrage, but I try to talk the person out of reading those pages, and forward her on to my first friend. He similarly tried to dissuade her. 

But no, the pages must be read, and disappointment ensues. 

It got to be quite a thing, with an entire group of people available to try to convince the newcomer to just skip the ending. No one did in in the five years this was going on, and everyone regretted it.

*laugh*

I applaud your friend for counseling you, and I even more applaud you for taking that advice. My friends never managed to. 

----

The documentary about Jodorosky's effort looks interesting. I couldn't see spending the money on seeing this in a theater, and I live within a mile of where it was showing locally. I think it's because I view it as being another Jerry Cornelius thing, where everyone thingk the core idea is amazing, but it just gets wound up in the "art" to the point where the narrative just disappears.


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## fenderbender4 (Jun 9, 2014)

shanejohnson02 said:


> JJ Abrams would be a good choice. So would Ridley Scott.
> 
> Imagine for a minute, if you will, a Michael Bay sandworm?



O god. Not a Bayworm.

First time I saw parts of the Lynch movie, I had no idea who he was. After seeing a few more of his stuff (including that really weird Jeremy Irons surgeon thing, talked about F'ed up) I realize now why the "bizarro" type stuff went overboard. Like giving meth to an addict and telling them to use it in moderation.

Cool to see other fans. I've thought about the translation into a visual form, and like others have said, there seems to be a lot of backstory (I mean the planet is a full-on character) that needs to be known beforehand to get the main story and its elements.


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## fenderbender4 (Jun 9, 2014)

I was never aware of the documentary. I guess that's the other hard component to navigate. I realize the world of Dune reads rather bizarre, but I think if a large studio bet money on a Dune project there would be a strong pull to "mainstream" it a little more. While hardcore fans might object to it, I think overall it would help in making a more coherent film. I do think it's also hard to sell the idea simply for the fact of the *jihad* part of it.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 9, 2014)

Big Dune fan here.
Yes, all the original series and even the House series.
Yeah, for me is miles ahead of LOTR too, but I think VERY bad of LOTR, I like the Silmarillion though


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## gizmi7 (Jun 9, 2014)

My favourite book series, however I like the first part the most.


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## Xaios (Jun 9, 2014)

Another reason why I can't take the David Lynch film seriously is because I see the actor playing Paul and I can't help but think "this guy is going to go on to play the villain in the Flinstones movie."


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 9, 2014)

Xaios said:


> Another reason why I can't take the David Lynch film seriously is because I see the actor playing Paul and I can't help but think "this guy is going to go on to play the villain in the Flinstones movie."



But but BUT he was Agent Cooper in the best TV Series in history!!!


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## Explorer (Jun 10, 2014)

When I watch movies at home, I often listen to the director's/writers' commentaries to get ideas. One thought that continually surfaces when adapting the written word to the scree is, what story can be pulled out of the written word which will be direct?

Dune has so much exposition which happens in the characters' heads that they would be hard pressed to have that exposition visually. It's not like Lord of the Rings, where a lot of the trilogy is a description of physical things. I don't know if just avoiding exposition could work, as Lucas was inspired to do by old Japanese samurai moves in the original Star Wars, because that was an action pic. Dune has stuff like, "How did you know to adjust that?" "It seemed... right." "(internal voice) Like the prophecy! 'He shall know your ways as if born to them!'" *laugh* You can't include a lot of this stuff without losing the audience for this particular set of books.

And any movie which avoids heavy-handed exposition of this internal stuff will have Dune fanbois complaining, the same way Watchmen fanbois complained that the movie wasn't exactly like the book. It's a different medium, right?


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## groverj3 (Jun 15, 2014)

For me the first three books are the only part of the series that are really necessary to read. After Children of Dune the books get very mythology-heavy. I was able to keep myself engaged until Chapterhouse, but that book made little to no sense to me. Granted, I probably read it at age 14 so perhaps I need to revisit it.

I liked the 2000 miniseries, but I haven't seen the Children of Dune miniseries. Some of the CG looks pretty bad now, but it's all miles ahead of the Lynch movie.

I hope that one day there can be a big budget film adaptation. I don't think you need to give the audience nearly as much exposition and it would be just fine to throw people into the universe without a ton of explanation.


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## celticelk (Jun 15, 2014)

groverj3 said:


> I hope that one day there can be a big budget film adaptation. I don't think you need to give the audience nearly as much exposition and it would be just fine to throw people into the universe without a ton of explanation.



It's a religious/political epic set eight thousand years in the future, and unlike, say, *Star Wars*, which you could theoretically also describe as a religious/political sci-fi epic, there are a LOT of moving parts with complex relationships between them. You either have to spend a lot of time fleshing that out, or drastically simplify it.


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## Spinedriver (Jun 22, 2014)

Jodorowsky's vision for Dune was that he wanted to immerse the people watching it into what he described as "tripping on LSD without actually taking LSD".

Looking at clips of his other movies, it may have been a small blessing that it was never made. That being said however, he said that he would love to see someone take his script (and MASSIVE storyboard book) and try to do an animated version.


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## Xaios (Jun 23, 2014)

Indeed. Dune is kind of like Game of Thrones. In space. On LSD. Over five thousand years.


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## pink freud (Jun 24, 2014)

Xaios said:


> Indeed. Dune is kind of like Game of Thrones. In space. On LSD. Over five thousand years.



The time-span is longer than that, isn't it? I'd thought that just getting to Dune took around ten-thousand years.


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## Xaios (Jun 26, 2014)

pink freud said:


> The time-span is longer than that, isn't it? I'd thought that just getting to Dune took around ten-thousand years.



I mean the story takes place over the span of 5,000 years, not that it occurs 5,000 years from now. Dune does indeed start 10,000 years from now. Then God Emperor of Dune happens 3,500 years from that, and Heretics/Chapterhouse take place another 1,500 years after still.


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## Explorer (Jun 27, 2014)

The Dune Encyclopedia says that early civilizations emerged on Terra sometime between 19000BG to 16500BG (Before the Spacing Guild). If that's just talking about agricultural centers, that's about 10,000 years ago. Writing was invented 5,500 years ago.

Assuming just agricultural civilizations, that puts us 9,000 years from the founding of the Spacing Guild. If we're talking about actual history, we have around 14,000 years to go.

Looking only at the Frank Herbert books, the Butlerian Jihad ended in 108BG. Frank Herbert's writings end in 15,900AG (After the founding of the Spacing Guild, or After Guild). That's a span of 16,000 years.

The timeline including the newer books which continue suck nourishment and money from Frank Herbert's withered husk stretch the stoty line back to 2,200BG, with the formation of the Cogitors. Then-water-rich Arrakis was seeded with sand trout prior to this, followed by the formation of the Old Empire. The war with the Thinking Machines started in 1287BG.

/end geek mode


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## fenderbender4 (Jun 30, 2014)

Xaios said:


> Indeed. Dune is kind of like Game of Thrones. In space. On LSD. Over five thousand years.



I think you mean Game of Thrones is like Dune, minus the LSD.


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## Varcolac (Jul 1, 2014)

I think the Dune series' additions over the decades are a great example of "less is more." Reading Dune for the first time, I was struck by the sheer gothic madness of the universe, and all the implications of the world-building. The inferences that I was able to draw from the way that groups like the Bene Gesserit or the Spacing Guild, and especially the mentats (oh Christ the mentats, what the hell...) were described populated the universe, in my mind, with impenetrable and arcane bureaucracies whose ten-thousand-year history was only vaguely understood at best. I absolutely loved the passing, almost casual references to huge events and organisations that shaped the universe. 

Then I read the "Legends of Dune" prequel series and was soundly disappointed. Immortal brains-in-jar cyborgs with ridiculous names, spelling out "this is why we need the spice because we have to do lots of spacemaths with our brains and computers are evil if you hadn't noticed with all the evil cyborgs and robots going on," pointing out things that would be the ancestors of things in the original books... the list goes on. Less is more. I liked the Dune universe more when I could imagine the half-remembered histories, not the half-assed narratives that Anderson and Herbert Jr. cobbled together.


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## Shimme (Jul 28, 2014)

I love this forum 

I think that it could never work as a movie, but if it was handled in a similar manner as Game of Thrones it would have a solid chance. A lot of that inner monologue can be handled if there is the enough time building the world and mythos so that the audience can get why Paul just knowing how to set up a still suit is a WTF moment.


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## wat (Aug 19, 2014)

Dune is my favorite series. Really had an effect on me when I was younger.

Are _Hunters of Dune_ and _Sandworms of Dune_ worth the read?


I'm honestly dying to know the conclusion of the series even though I didn't like the House prequels by Brian Herbert as much.


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## Explorer (Aug 20, 2014)

Wat, I can appreciate your position.

I was reading a brilliant series, and then the last book disappeared without a trace. 

I finally found a used copy listed for some incredibly high price, so I decided to read some reviews to see if it would rock my world for the money.

And everyone who had reviewed it... HATED IT.

Some of these were folks who had reviewed the rest of the series well. How could they all be universally panning it?

So I finally succumbed to the temptation, especially since it was a matter of whether to spend a few hundred bucks on this mythical, unavailable book which would conclude the whole thing...

And the whole thing turned on a plot twist which was so incredibly stupid that I was grateful I hadn't paid the money. 

My suggestion would be to wait a few years, and then see how the reviews pan out. 

I guess if you're not opposed to spending the time in reading them all, most library systems have the books, so you'd only be out the time. For what it's worth, I decided not to throw away any more time on anything Brian Herbert makes money from, even if I'm just reading a library copy. 

Just my two cents... but read my post above about the timeline of the Dune Universe, to see how much I really liked the series, and you'll get an idea of how strongly I feel about Brian Herbert's prolonged and unending vampirism, and its effect on Dune's dessicated and dried out corpse.


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## Xaios (Aug 20, 2014)

Explorer said:


> Just my two cents... but read my post above about the timeline of the Dune Universe, to see how much I really liked the series, and you'll get an idea of how strongly I feel about Brian Herbert's prolonged and unending vampirism...



From a business perspective, you certainly can't blame Brian Herbert. While the Dune franchise isn't nearly as lucrative as it once was, it's still gotta be a serious cash cow.



Explorer said:


> ...and its effect on Dune's dessicated and *dried out *corpse.



Well, it IS Dune. 







("James Patterson is a necromancer" kills me every time. )


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## Explorer (Aug 20, 2014)

Are you saying that I have a dearth and a paucity of concepts, and so I have to cover up the narrowness and finite constraints of my thinking by using lots of words that mean the same thing, and synonyms besides, for the same thing?


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## Xaios (Aug 20, 2014)

Explorer said:


> Are you saying that I have a dearth and a paucity of concepts, and so I have to cover up the narrowness and finite constraints of my thinking by using lots of words that mean the same thing, and synonyms besides, for the same thing?



Not at all. After all, you could have also said it was withered, shriveled, mummified, barren or even pruned. 

(And if you're being serious, because I honestly can't tell, I was simply pointing out that your choice of adjectives was both apt and savvy, given the subject matter.)

And now my stream of consciousness has shifted to the notion of "giant space prunes." Deeper into the sandworm hole we go.


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## pink freud (Aug 20, 2014)

You payed HOW MUCH for Sandworms? It's like $10 on Amazon!


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## InfinityCollision (Aug 20, 2014)

That's still about $50 too much.


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## isispelican (Aug 20, 2014)

Loved the first book!


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## Explorer (Aug 20, 2014)

Xaios, I actually poz-repped you for that first post about my conceptual poverty. *laugh*


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## wat (Aug 24, 2014)

Didn't an actor fall on his face on the set in the David Lynch movie and it made it into the film?


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## wat (Aug 24, 2014)

Explorer said:


> Wat, I can appreciate your position.
> I was reading a brilliant series, and then the last book disappeared without a trace.
> I finally found a used copy listed for some incredibly high price, so I decided to read some reviews to see if it would rock my world for the money.
> And everyone who had reviewed it... HATED IT.
> ...




Oh dear.

I was not a fan of Brian Herbert's & Kevin Anderson's flowery, all most whimsical purple prose in the House prequels in contrast to Frank's cold & hard way of story telling. What I disliked even worse were actual _errors_ and getting parts of Duncan Idaho's and Gurney Halleck's past mixed up with eachother, but overall I still was entertained by the House prequels just to have some background, but if the final two novels are really _that bad_ maybe I will have to live without a conclusion to the series, lol.


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## skeels (Aug 24, 2014)

I love Dune. But it lives mostly in my mind, thankfully, and not the actual works- which is testimony to the original authorship. 

I also read it while in jail, which kept me locked up in the library away from all the other thugs, for which I am additionally grateful.




I've said too much. 

Great story.


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## Explorer (Aug 25, 2014)

Thank you for your service to the state or the federal government, whichever it was.


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## Overtone (Aug 26, 2014)

I read dune around my Tweens after seeing the movie and loved it. 

These last few weeks I have been interested in rewatching the movie (lynch). Any particular release of it more worthwhile than the others?


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## Explorer (Aug 26, 2014)

If you're going to watch it, you should watch the uncut version, which you can find on DVD for less than $10.

Be warned that it's like 5 hours and 14 minutes though. You'll want a pizza.


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## Xaios (Aug 27, 2014)

Explorer said:


> Be warned that it's like 5 hours and 14 minutes though. *You'll want a pizza.*



I laughed hysterically at this. Thank you.


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## Explorer (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm just saying what every one of us is thinking when we hit the 3-hour mark.


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## Overtone (Aug 27, 2014)

Is it coherent and decent quality footage? I saw an interview w lynch and he said he cut the script some during production, and also that he didn't get final cut. So I am just wondering if the extra scenes are consistent with the rest of the film, in terms of quality.


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## Overtone (Aug 27, 2014)

Also, in the description that page says this...


DVD features
Melange fans have a lot to be excited about with this impressive edition of Dune, though the "Extended Edition" label is a bit misleading. If you are expecting the mythic 4 hour "David Lynch preferred" version that is rumored to be sitting in a vault, dont get your hopes up. This isn't it. In an attempt to quickly sober spice-fueled giddy fans, producer Raffaella De Laurentiis (daughter of Dino De Laurentiis) immediately reveals in the 'Deleted Scenes' introduction that the rumored 4 hour version is just that; a rumor. What this DVD set does contain is the 2 Hour 17 Minute original theatrical release digitally remastered, available for the first time in 2.35:1 anamorphic widescreen and 5.1 surround sound. The presentation on this edition is a drastic improvement from the original letterboxed release. On the flipside of the DVD 

Knife fight!
is the alternate 2 hour 57 minute version cut for television. As many fans know, this 'extended' version was disowned by Lynch, who insisted his name be replaced by that famous Hollywood pseudonym "Alan Smithee;" the name used by directors whose film was taken away and recut against their wishes. There is some new material in the 14 minutes of deleted scenes offering a bit more background into the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, the Kwisatz Haderach prophecy and the Fremen culture and their struggle. All other extras focus on the international production crew of Dune including the design team, special effects, and short documentaries on the miniature models and wardrobe designs. Disappointingly, there are no appearances in the bonus features by any of the original cast or Lynch himself. However, many of the production crew members talk openly about working with David Lynch and his artistic involvement in the visual process. To cap it off, this edition comes in a very stylish and sturdy DVD tin that opens like a keep case. --Rob Bracco

Is it possible that you are thinking of a fan edited version or something?


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## Overtone (Aug 27, 2014)

Apparently there is also a tv station that put together a version combining the theatrical and longer edition, but still only 190 minutes.


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