# Problems with band member



## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

So my band has a issue with our singer. It's been going on for awhile now and it's coming to a head soon. I'll just list the things we are dealing with and see if I can get some feedback/opinions

- Unreliable transportation. They have gone through 4 cars in 6 years. This in turn puts unnecessary stress on the other band members when we are on time to the gig but she is running late because she had to borrow a car or even worse Uber to a gig. We then have to talk to the sound guy and let him know that we won't be able to do a complete soundcheck because of her lateness. At clubs/casinos this is a very very bad look. She's also been so late because of car problems that she almost missed the first dance songs at a wedding we were performing at. And just last gig she showed up 20 minutes before we were suppose to start when I sent a note out 3 days prior saying that the venue specifically says to be there 1 hour before we start.

- She doesn't know how to sacrifice things and she's awful with her money. She will drive an hour and a half to the beach to hang out with her friends on a Sunday and spend money on drinks/food/tolls or tickets to have her car put on the Ferry to get from one beach town to the other but then might not make it to the gig or rehearsal because her car is fucked. Instead of just staying at home on a day off and saving that money and putting it towards her car issues, she has super bad FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) and needs to go out and enjoy herself or be seen.

- Bad attitude. She does not take criticism well and gets defensive anytime you tell her what to do. We want to add new songs and flush out the older songs that we play that don't really get a response or are just outplayed. We tell her this and her first thing is to mention we should bring back a song that is 10+ years old when we literally just discussed moving forward with newer content for songs. She says she doesn't "understand" why we have this plan. We are a cover band. If we don't keep it fresh, then other bands will and we will get left behind. She was late to a acoustic duo gig 2 weeks ago and she didn't even apologize to the guitar player until AFTER the gig in a text. And the apology wasn't even a good one. She showed up at 6:05, the gig started at 6:00. Her text read "Sorry for the tardiness but also not sorry...LOL i was due to the there at 5:15!!!!"

- Lack of professionalism. We write setlists and tape them somewhere that is easily seen by the band members. Mine is usually on my mic stand or somewhere in my direct line of sight. Our keyboardist has his taped to his keyboards. Drummers is on his laptop usually. Our singer doesn't do that and just walks over to the keyboards while she's in the middle of a song and starts looking at what songs are next. It looks awful. She needs to be interacting with the crowd but she's looking at the setlist like she's deciding on what to get off a menu at a fine dining place while trying to sing a Whitney Houston song. Lately she's been refusing to sing certain songs. She said she doesn't want to sing "Respect" by Aretha Franklin. That's one of our best songs. The crowds love it and we do it well. She said her voice hurts. To me that means she's not taking care of her tool that she uses in the band. If I said I couldn't play Sweet Child O Mine because my guitar doesn't work properly, everyone would look at me and tell me to figure it out. We can not stop playing our best songs because you aren't taking care of your voice. Also we all use IEM (In Ear Monitors). We've been using them for about 5 years now. For some reason she has just decided to not use hers anymore. She never told anybody she was going to do this or gave a reason. We played a wedding a few weeks ago with a sound guy we use often. He knows our setup. We run our own in ear monitors and he just has to worry about front of house sound. Well she shows up without her earbuds and the sound guy doesn't have any monitors because he doesn't need them when he does sound for us. So now she can't hear herself that well and is out of key on certain songs. She even crouched down next to my amp cabinet to try and find the key but was still completely wrong. Also we run a laptop with a click and some samples. If she can't hear that then she will be coming in late for certain songs. And even if there was a stage monitor for her, we can't run click to that because then the crowd would hear the click track too.

So we are planning on having a meeting with her. It was suppose to happen 2 weeks ago at rehearsal but we had to cancel rehearsal because of her car issues. Last night we were suppose to rehearse and have the talk but guess what, cancelled because of her car issues again! I write this long winded post to see what your guys thoughts/opinions are on this. What would you do/suggest? Have any of you been in a similar situation? How did you handle it? How did it go? Did you get rid of said person or try and work it out?

- Thanks!


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## ArtDecade (Aug 13, 2021)

Cover bands, especially ones doing weddings, need reliable members. She has to go. If you want to be clever about it, ask her if she has anyone in mind that can second her if she can't make the gig - and then offer this person the actual gig.


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## sleewell (Aug 13, 2021)

whats the point of the meeting?!? if you all agree and what you are saying is even just 20% true replace her like 3 weeks ago. 

life is way too short for that nonsense. i don't deal with adult children well at all and have very low tolerance for what you are describing.


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## mpexus (Aug 13, 2021)

You know the answer on what to do... but if you need another reassurance reply here it is:

- Kick her out YESTERDAY!


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## Demiurge (Aug 13, 2021)

What's her position on capos though?

In seriousness, it sounds like the other shoe is waiting to drop for her behavior to cost your band a good gig.


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## budda (Aug 13, 2021)

Sounds like you already know you're looking for the replacement.


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## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

sleewell said:


> whats the point of the meeting?!? if you all agree and what you are saying is even just 20% true replace her like 3 weeks ago.



Some of the other members thought we should give her the benefit of the doubt and maybe at the meeting she will say something like "You know what, you guys are right and I needed to hear all of this and I will change the way I act." The think we owe her that to at least tell her our problems and not just fire her out of the blue.

Me on the other hand think it's just prolonging the inevitable and we should can her and find a replacment.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 13, 2021)

She will either be late or not be at the meeting.


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## sleewell (Aug 13, 2021)

in my experience people that need to be told they should fix their car instead of going out blowing money so they aren't always late to gigs will rarely see the light. its something that you a logical person would expect from them but not something that they will ever come to regardless of how nicely you lay it out for them. 

you have already said she doesn't take criticism well. def doesn't sound like having the talk will have any affect on her. 20 bucks says she comes straight out with excuses about how its not her fault, how it wasn't that big of a deal, how she still made it to every gig, etc...


your reputation is eroding every time she is late. people that are always late get confirmation when they are late but people keep accepting them bc nothing really bad happened so they keep doing it or get worse and worse. 

its your call but if you want to keep getting better gigs you need to ditch this person.


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## Scordare (Aug 13, 2021)

Sounds like a lazy karaoke star who wanted to be in a band but doesn’t have the drive to work hard. How good is she really? And how much does she contribute to your following? How easy will she be to replace? Her car problems seem to have become a convenient excuse.. Is there someone else in the band who can pick her up? Maybe a good talk will help her straighten out..maybe not. Probably better start looking for a backup plan.


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## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

sleewell said:


> in my experience people that need to be told they should fix their car instead of going out blowing money so they aren't always late to gigs will rarely see the light. its something that you a logical person would expect from them but not something that they will ever come to regardless of how nicely you lay it out for them.
> 
> you have already said she doesn't take criticism well. def doesn't sound like having the talk will have any affect on her. 20 bucks says she comes straight out with excuses about how its not her fault, how it wasn't that big of a deal, how she still made it to every gig, etc...
> 
> ...



Everything you've said is almost verbatim what I have said will happen at the meeting. 



Scordare said:


> Sounds like a lazy karaoke star who wanted to be in a band but doesn’t have the drive to work hard. How good is she really? And how much does she contribute to your following? How easy will she be to replace? Her car problems seem to have become a convenient excuse.. Is there someone else in the band who can pick her up? Maybe a good talk will help her straighten out..maybe not. Probably better start looking for a backup plan.



When she's on it, she is good. Not like holy shit Mariah Carey early 90's good, but she's no slouch. She can sing. The following we have is somewhat related to her. She's been in the cover scene for about 9 years in this area and when we play local a lot of her friends come out. But her friends also know how she is with her car problems. We've heard through the grapevine that her friends have told her "sorry but, no" when she's asked to use their car. We would take an initial hit since she's the "Face" of the band but I think that would quickly be remedied by us hiring a new quality singer. There might be some backlash at certain venues because she's friendly with them and it may look like we booted out our "Star" but I think if anybody knew the behind the scenes stuff they would agree that as a business it's a good move to get rid of her.

As far as someone else in the band giving her rides, that's an issue as well. Half the band does not live close enough to her to give her a ride a lot of the time. The other members live within 15 minutes of her but here's the thing. Everyone in the band has been vaccinated for COVID except her. One member of our band has Lymes disease, another member has a new born baby, and my girlfriend is immunocompromised (Type 1 Diabetes). We do not feel comfortable being in a car with her on long rides to gigs. We wear masks at rehearsal while she does not. We wear masks while not onstage at gigs, she does not. She has been going out the same amount or even more since last summer when cases were outta control and places were doing capacity limits. She has not given a reason for why she won't get vaccinated. It has also costed us a potential gig. Our agency emailed us and said there is a private event wanting a band. Budget was something like $3,500 but the band has to be vaccinated. We told her and she said "I guess we aren't playing it". So not only is she costing us money we could be making but she's turning down money for herself which would help her in her financial situation and car situation.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 13, 2021)

How many ways can we rephrase "fire her"? LOL.


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## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> How many ways can we rephrase "fire her"? LOL.



Lol, I know I know. If it was only up to me then yes I would get rid of her. I can't talk to anyone else outside of the band about it because in the cover band scene everyone knows everyone and the word would get out and possibly back to her. So I come here to get some takes on the issue from some other musicians who don't have any connection to it.


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## TedEH (Aug 13, 2021)

I mean, if she's a vocalist... not carrying any gear... transportation isn't that complicated to sort out. I've been in bands with people who don't own cars or can't drive, and simple compromises were found to make it work. It's not a "car problem" it's a "her problem".

IMO there's no use worrying about any kind of blowback from "the scene" for firing someone known if keeping her around is going to tank your reputation anyway. Doesn't matter if she's a good singer. There are lots of good singers out there. Some of them know how to arrange transportation. Get you one of those.


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## metallicity (Aug 13, 2021)

A couple of ideas/suggestions:

- Is there any chance it's a perception issue? meaning is it really that bad? I imagine it actually is that bad but I'm just saying this so you can make an objective argument when the time comes.
You're probably going to get at least one band member that's in denial about how bad the situation is unless you have some hard (documented) facts.
One thing I suggest, it will be some work but will be worth it, is making a list for yourself and the other band members of the past gigs going back as far as you can stand and write down how many times she was late vs not being late. Was she late 100%? 75%? 50%? 25%? in the past x number of gigs. Is she actually late as often as you describe?, less that you describe?, or late even more often than you describe? It's easy for any member of the band to claim it's more or less than reality unless you have documented facts regarding it. If you document it there will be no perception issue from anyone in the band including her. I don't mean this to sound like I'm only considering the lateness, I'm just using that as an example, the documentation could, or probably should, be a list of professional vs unprofessional things lateness included. Makes me wonder, has she done things that have been professional at all?

- See if the band is willing to schedule another rehearsal with a different singer and just say it's so the band can practice with a "backup" singer when the current singer can't make it due to transportation issues. "Just for practice reasons". Once you get some practice in with the "backup" or "practice" singer the band is in a better position to move on without the current problematic singer.

Also on board with everyone else here saying to replace her if my post wasn't clear on that.


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## CovertSovietBear (Aug 13, 2021)

You've answered your questions and you've also tried to resolve the problems professionally; she needs to go and you need a replacement singer in the interim. 

Why is there hesitancy regarding confrontation? (besides the glaring car issues). 
Have y'all been working together for a while now and are people uncomfortable escalating the lack of resolve from her side?

The problem doesn't sound like she's not being confronted, it's that the proposed solutions to these issues have not been escalated.


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## CovertSovietBear (Aug 13, 2021)

ijohnh67 said:


> A couple of ideas/suggestions:
> 
> - See if the band is willing to schedule another rehearsal with a different singer and just say it's so the band can practice with a "backup" singer when the current singer can't make it due to transportation issues. "Just for practice reasons". Once you get some practice in with the "backup" or "practice" singer the band is in a better position to move on without the current problematic singer.
> 
> Also on board with everyone else here saying to replace her if my post wasn't clear on that.



Oh that's an interesting suggestion. This would place pressure on her to either step up/down but leave the band in an advantageous position.
Documenting her lateness would also supplement the argument OP is trying to make; the data don't lie.


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## Adieu (Aug 13, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Everything you've said is almost verbatim what I have said will happen at the meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



$3500 gig for a cover band and she's like NAH???

This sounds like a dead end situation


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## CanserDYI (Aug 13, 2021)

gonna agree with @TedEH shes a singer, she's not lugging cabs and amps and guitars anywhere. No excuse even car issues. Sounds like you guys also live in a metropolitan area, there are plenty of ways to get around without a car, even in the boonies. This is a joke to her if she can't make rehearsal. I wouldnt even kick her out, just ghost her at this point, not even joking, after all that disrespect.


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## Adieu (Aug 13, 2021)

Seriously, a vocalist can buy a damn moped

And even non-vocalists can swallow their pride and buy a damn Crown Victoria for like a grand if their cool cars aren't reliable


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## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

CovertSovietBear said:


> Why is there hesitancy regarding confrontation? (besides the glaring car issues).
> Have y'all been working together for a while now and are people uncomfortable escalating the lack of resolve from her side?
> 
> The problem doesn't sound like she's not being confronted, it's that the proposed solutions to these issues have not been escalated.



I mean there is always the uncomfortableness of having to discuss these issues with a band member you've been with for 6 years. At this point though I am over it and feel like to move forward she just need to be fired. But since we treat the band as a democracy and there is no real "leader" and I like the rest of the guys enough I will respect their desire to have the meeting and air it out even though I think we all know what is going to happen and/or needs to happen.



CanserDYI said:


> gonna agree with @TedEH shes a singer, she's not lugging cabs and amps and guitars anywhere. No excuse even car issues. Sounds like you guys also live in a metropolitan area, there are plenty of ways to get around without a car, even in the boonies. This is a joke to her if she can't make rehearsal. I wouldnt even kick her out, just ghost her at this point, not even joking, after all that disrespect.



It's really ridiculous. She acts like a child if you bring up her car issues and reference how she drives her car back and forth to the beach but then can't make it to rehearsals because its broke. You'd think if you knew your car was not running well or you only had a few rides left you would prioritize the things you need to get to that make you money, right? But she will act like we are telling her what to do with her free time or telling her she can't go out and have fun. Well, when your problems start affecting this job in negative ways it gives us every right to say something. If this was a normal 9-5 job and she acted like this or did similar things she would've been let go already.


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## r33per (Aug 13, 2021)

Not much to add apart from the additional voice to what's already been posted.

Two choices: demonstrable change of attitude or dismissed.
By all means arrange a meet, but I'd recommend sticking to one's guns and not getting derailed. And if the promise of a change around is made, they've got one chance or out.


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## TedEH (Aug 13, 2021)

ijohnh67 said:


> See if the band is willing to schedule another rehearsal with a different singer and just say it's so the band can practice with a "backup" singer when the current singer can't make it due to transportation issues. "Just for practice reasons". Once you get some practice in with the "backup" or "practice" singer the band is in a better position to move on without the current problematic singer.


I'd be careful with this kind of approach, 'cause it can be read as kinda petty and might set an unprofessional precedent for the new vocalist. If you really want to boot the singer, just do it.


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## VGK17 (Aug 13, 2021)

Just send her this link. problem solved.


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## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

VGK17 said:


> Just send her this link. problem solved.




That would be my god damn dream since I'm a huge wrestling fan lol.


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## wheresthefbomb (Aug 13, 2021)

Riffer said:


> She acts like a child if you bring up her car issues and reference how she drives her car back and forth to the beach but then can't make it to rehearsals because its broke. You'd think if you knew your car was not running well or you only had a few rides left you would prioritize the things you need to get to that make you money, right? But she will act like we are telling her what to do with her free time or telling her she can't go out and have fun. Well, when your problems start affecting this job in negative ways it gives us every right to say something. If this was a normal 9-5 job and she acted like this or did similar things she would've been let go already.



She's telling you with her actions what her priorities are. 

I respect y'all's choice not to straight up ghost her, though nobody would likely blame you. If nothing else it acknowledges the humanity of everyone involved. I did my last one via text and they weren't privy to the decision, "artistic differences blah blah you can come by the practice space for your gear at your convenience." 

Ultimately band relationships are a lot like other relationships, including in their dysfunction. We can't change people, she's obviously got some issues and it's cool to empathize with that but they are ultimately _her _issues and she will have to figure them out (or not) on her own time. At this point, anything short of parting ways is very likely enabling her behavior. 

If you're friends it will probably cost you that, too, which sucks but that's how these things go. Also you and your bandmates will probably feel like assholes but that's how boundaries are sometimes. Good luck.


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## metallicity (Aug 13, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I'd be careful with this kind of approach, 'cause it can be read as kinda petty and might set an unprofessional precedent for the new vocalist. If you really want to boot the singer, just do it.



Absolutely be careful with whatever approach is taken. My suggestion was meant to be a general idea/outline for something more nuanced, more of a way to transition from one singer to another. Yes, if that band decides to do something along those lines they should be careful to do it in a way that doesn't end up petty or unprofessional, it can be done. 

I know bands, and have been in bands, that have access to at least one backup player that can fill in if someone can't make it, don't see why that can't apply to a singer too. Say the band wants a second singer for gigs that require all the members to be vaccinated. They can say to the current singer you're our person for unvaccinated gigs as we understand your decision not to get vaccinated but it's unfair for the whole band to miss out on gigs that require the whole band to be vaccinated so we'll have a second singer for those situations. Not at all unrealistic in our current world.

Only the OP and the rest of the band members have a feel for what approach would be best for them and sometimes straight up fired is best and sometimes a more nuanced transition is best. The band members may not want to burn the bridge with a straight up fire and leave the door open to working together again in the future. That is the more difficult approach but can be more rewarding in the long run. 

I'm just offering up a few ideas to consider, not married to any of them, some may absolutely be wrong for their situation yet some may give them something they haven't thought of and end up aiding their process.


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## c7spheres (Aug 13, 2021)

Maybe she needs a wake up call. Some people don't realize you're serious until you get stern with them. I'd sit her down or next time you talk to her tell her to get serious or she's out and make sure she know you're serious. Sometime's all people need is that wake up call to get back on track. - If it's been already discussed in a professional way with her then maybe it's time to go.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 13, 2021)

She must be hot.


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## Xaios (Aug 13, 2021)

All I can really do is echo what other people have said. This person is chronically unable to manage her own affairs, and makes bad decisions not only knowing that it will negatively impact the group, but even refuses to change course when there's tangible evidence that said decisions already have done so. You may call your band a democracy, but given how you've kowtowed to her selfish and narcissistic behavior to this point, I'd venture to say that's not true. She has actively demonstrated repeatedly that she doesn't give a damn about the band, and is unwilling to make even the smallest effort to accommodate the rest of you the same way you have her.

Go ahead and meet with her, but I don't see this getting better. Cut her loose.


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## Riffer (Aug 13, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> She must be hot.



lol I would say no. I do not find her attractive. But a lot of that is her personality. 



I appreciate all the input and it confirms what I’ve felt in my head that she needs to go. I’ve also neglected to mention that she isn’t some young 20 something. She’s 41 and to me it’s mind boggling that this is how she acts.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 13, 2021)

Riffer said:


> lol I would say no. I do not find her attractive. But a lot of that is her personality.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate all the input and it confirms what I’ve felt in my head that she needs to go. I’ve also neglected to mention that she isn’t some young 20 something. She’s 41 and to me it’s mind boggling that this is how she acts.



All I know is if I was your singer, I'd be giving handies in a train station bathroom because my ugly ass would have been fired a long time ago. 

Just saying...


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## budda (Aug 13, 2021)

Usually when someone in a band says "We're having a meeting" without explicitly stating why, everyone knows why.

Tell the others if she misses the meeting, that's her resignation. Democracy hasn't done your band favours keeping known dead weight around. All bands need a leader at the end of the day . It lets people work on their strengths within the band (booking, merch, bills, etc) and not worry about the whole package.

Sounds like you're ready to step up.

Also, if the whole local circuit knows you guys tolerate that behaviour, you may notice a trend..


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## Bodes (Aug 13, 2021)

If your band mates are dead set on this meeting, make sure you have what you want to say written down and semi-scripted.
If you sound like to her that you are not sure what you really mean/want, she is not going to accept anything you say.

If you won't fire her, you could offer to her that the band members will upfront the cost of car repairs, and half or her share for future gig money will go back to the band members until the debt is paid off? 
In saying that, I don't know what the cost of repairs or her share of gig cash looks like, from a time for her to repay perspective. I also don't know your band mates financial position.

This might work well, she might walk, or she may get the car fixed, then walk.


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## Esp Griffyn (Aug 14, 2021)

Sack the bitch and find someone else. She doesn't sound like she cares at all about doing any of the legwork involved with being in a band, she just wants to sing what she wants, when she feels like it and massage her own ego.


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## fantom (Aug 14, 2021)

Just some advice...

First, for some situations, going into a bunch of reasons about her behavior and then firing her is far worse than just saying, "It isn't working out, we are looking for a new singer. Sorry." If she has questions or concerns, listen to her out of respect, but do not discuss the reasons or give her a 2nd chance. If she gets emotional, do not try to fix it. Let her get out her emotions.

Second, she doesn't have car problems. She has a punctuality and professionalism problem. As someone who is an expert at being late, I can tell you that if she cared, she would make it early. That is pretty much on her regardless of why. Stop letting her use her car as an excuse.

Third, keep in mind that other band members may end up picking sides and causing a rift. Even if you all agree, you need to find a new singer (start doing that now). In that case, there is a chance people don't agree or the band loses gigs and people start resenting each other. I'm just saying you need to figure out with other members if you all want to make this thing work with a different singer. If the answer is yes, great..if not, expect the band to split up.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Aug 14, 2021)

I took my motorcycle safety class last weekend. Had to be there on a Saturday at 6:45am. Two people were extremely late. Before they arrived the instructor told us people who are late usually don’t pass because it shows they aren’t very committed. They finally arrived, but neither did well nor came back the second day, and all the rest of us passed. Step 1 in life is showing up. If we aren’t talking about Cristina Scabbia kick her ass out!


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## fantom (Aug 14, 2021)

Riffer said:


> - She doesn't know how to sacrifice things and she's awful with her money. She will drive an hour and a half to the beach to hang out with her friends on a Sunday and spend money on drinks/food/tolls or tickets to have her car put on the Ferry to get from one beach town to the other but then might not make it to the gig or rehearsal because her car is fucked. Instead of just staying at home on a day off and saving that money and putting it towards her car issues, she has super bad FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) and needs to go out and enjoy herself or be seen.



Just want to point out. How she spends her personal money or time is her business. I would take her side on this point.

I can get that you want a requirement for band members to have reliable transportation and chip in on band expenses, but if you never explicitly agreed to any terms, that isn't entirely on her.

Many people in bands won't sacrifice their life for it. I've never been in a band where everyone was willing to drop everything for the band. Maybe 2 or 3 people do that, but they typically drive the project so hard that there is no space for other members to emotionally invest in it. And that is fine. Just be explicit about your expectations with your new singer.


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## ixlramp (Aug 14, 2021)

Riffer,
I actually barely read the first post, forgive me, this is because ...
When it gets to the point of someone posting on a forum about how bad a band member is, then the answer is probably obvious and simple:
The problem member has to go, they probably will not change, or the poster should leave the band if the band is weak and refuses to sort the problem out (lifes too short, better things will be ahead).
And i suspect the poster knows this already, which makes me wonder why they even post about it.
Sorry for my arrogance


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## Lozek (Aug 15, 2021)

No point in the meeting, I can say from bitter experience people do not change. You may shock her into changing her ways for a short while, but she will slowly slide back to her current behaviour.

Costing you a €3.5k gig over vaccination is enough of reason and that will only happen more as they become mandatory for corporate events. No-one is going to risk getting sued for not taking proper precaution.


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## JxHx (Aug 17, 2021)

Broken beyond fixing. Get someone else.


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## sepsis311 (Aug 17, 2021)

Good singers are very, I mean VERY hard to come by, not like guitar players that are a dime a dozen and easy to replace. The question is, how good is her voice? I have to give the unpopular opinion that if she is amazing talented, it may be worth taking the time to try to address some of the issues, by prioritizing them, and working on them one at a time, figuring out some way to assist with the transportation debacle as number one. However if the bad attitude doesn't end after offering to help, and she's not an amazing talent who never sings a bum note, then replace her, far too much to deal with.


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## S920e (Aug 17, 2021)

This is pretty straightforward stuff fella. If she isn't working, she isn't working. If she can't show for a gig, it's costing the whole band money. If she's being a diva and it's an issue, She's putting stress on the whole band. If she's not acting professionally on stage, it's making the whole band look unprofessional. You brought up three points, and all three of those points are obviously dragging the band down. If one member is dragging the whole band down, the whole band will eventually go down too. Put an ad in the paper, online, wherever, and replace her. There are thousands of singers out there that take gigging seriously and aren't just attention whores. Find one of them...before no one in your band is gigging.


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## Sephael (Aug 17, 2021)

NTAH up to your disregard for strained vocal cords. You could bash your guitar to bits and have a backup ready to play for <$500, don’t be a twat and dismiss potential bodily injury because you equate it to your guitar. 

That being said, ditch her. Stop mentioning when rehearsal is and see if she even bats an eye that they are no longer being held.


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## S920e (Aug 17, 2021)

sepsis311 said:


> Good singers are very, I mean VERY hard to come by, not like guitar players that are a dime a dozen and easy to replace. The question is, how good is her voice? I have to give the unpopular opinion that if she is amazing talented, it may be worth taking the time to try to address some of the issues, by prioritizing them, and working on them one at a time, figuring out some way to assist with the transportation debacle as number one. However if the bad attitude doesn't end after offering to help, and she's not an amazing talent who never sings a bum note, then replace her, far too much to deal with.


Easy on us guitar players 'ey. It's not as simple as that. Some guys are great at playing other peoples' stuff but don't know a lick about music to be able to compose a 4 minute song. There are virtuosos that are so disciplined in music that they will argue every single step of the way instead of collaborate. There are hacks out there that wing it through a show but put on a killer performance and that can make the show go way better than a someone who stands in one spot and plays meticulously. Calling us a dime a dozen and easy to replace is borderline contemptable. I am a singer and guitarist and I play stuff from Glamour of the Kill, Get Scared, The Confession, We came as Romans, Memphis Mayfire as well as originals that the band and I have written over the years. We have a vocalist but sometimes he can't sing the parts that I can so I step in as full frontal. I do all of the screaming though. This is the part that gets tough. Singing in a smooth voice, or raspy voice, then transitioning from a singing voice to screaming voice, while never missing a note or time accent on your strings is not an easy task especially when the timing is so wild. One of our most popular covers is, "One Handed Killing" by Twelve Foot Ninja. So we are not all a dime a dozen mate.


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## sepsis311 (Aug 17, 2021)

S920e said:


> Easy on us guitar players 'ey. It's not as simple as that. Some guys are great at playing other peoples' stuff but don't know a lick about music to be able to compose a 4 minute song. There are virtuosos that are so disciplined in music that they will argue every single step of the way instead of collaborate. There are hacks out there that wing it through a show but put on a killer performance and that can make the show go way better than a someone who stands in one spot and plays meticulously. Calling us a dime a dozen and easy to replace is borderline contemptable. I am a singer and guitarist and I play stuff from Glamour of the Kill, Get Scared, The Confession, We came as Romans, Memphis Mayfire as well as originals that the band and I have written over the years. We have a vocalist but sometimes he can't sing the parts that I can so I step in as full frontal. I do all of the screaming though. This is the part that gets tough. Singing in a smooth voice, or raspy voice, then transitioning from a singing voice to screaming voice, while never missing a note or time accent on your strings is not an easy task especially when the timing is so wild. One of our most popular covers is, "One Handed Killing" by Twelve Foot Ninja. So we are not all a dime a dozen mate.


Don't be offended, I am a guitar player as well, on a forum full of... guitar players.


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## Rubbishplayer (Aug 17, 2021)

Well it seems like everyone agrees that she sucks, but here's a different view...

It sounds like if she didn't have these problems, you'd stick with her. It also sounds like firing her with extreme prejudice might only result in her putting a competing band together who might eat into your market share.

I'd therefore advise against getting confrontational about this. Make this about the business and your goals and the values you need to make it work, rather than about her deficiencies. Worst case reaction won't be any worse, but who knows, when she's being let go graciously, she may become motivated to act better, or at least less motivated to compete.

Its also best to have the replacement agreed in principle, so you don't miss a beat.

As frustrating as she maybe, the band is more important, and getting confrontational might only be bad for the band, no matter how satisfying it might feel.


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## Demiurge (Aug 17, 2021)

sepsis311 said:


> The question is, how good is her voice? I have to give the unpopular opinion that if she is amazing talented, it may be worth taking the time to try to address some of the issues, by prioritizing them, and working on them one at a time, figuring out some way to assist with the transportation debacle as number one..



I can see this to an extent, but it seems that the world of music is full of people who seemingly work backwards from this perspective: they are consciously careless, difficult, and mercurial because they think that their talent deserves accommodation. And those people need to be shot into the fucking sun.


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## TedEH (Aug 17, 2021)

Rubbishplayer said:


> putting a competing band together who might eat into your market share


They're already losing "market share" by _keeping_ the singer around. If the singer goes on to be more successful or more motivated in another band, it still tells you that it wasn't a good fit in the first place. If the net result is that everyone gets to keep playing music and be reasonably happy doing it, then everyone wins. One more band in the area to "compete against" is far from a big deal IMO.


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## S920e (Aug 17, 2021)

sepsis311 said:


> Don't be offended, I am a guitar player as well, on a forum full of... guitar players.


Fair enough. My bad. I actually deal with this locally every time I have to replace a rhythm guitarist and it's pretty hard to find one if I can agree with that point. On the bright side though, it makes for great diversity when it comes time to write. We'll get a bassist or a guitarist that has a one-track writing mind. They only have a handful of licks that they can think of off hand and they fall into that repetition when it's time to write. Firing and hiring makes a band. When the right crew clicks, that's when they go somewhere. I haven't been there yet. lol


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## Ross82 (Aug 17, 2021)

You already know the answer buddy. As they say, "You're only as strong as the weakest link" and this appears to be an extremely weak link.

The singer can have two reactions to valid, majority agreed issues; 1 - Change her attitude, be professional and move forward together. 2 - Hit the bricks.

Really is as simple as that. The level you're playing at where you actually make money from performing, you have to treat the band as a business. As a manager its my job to hold my team members accountable for both their work performance AND their reflection of the company, in the last 2 years we've replaced 2 poorly performing members and we've grown and improved as a result.


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## J3rryAttrick (Aug 17, 2021)

You sure she isn't a bass player?
She sounds like a bass player.


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## cosmorenfro (Aug 17, 2021)

all i needed to read was the first sentence. you know the answer.


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## S920e (Aug 17, 2021)

J3rryAttrick said:


> You sure she isn't a bass player?
> She sounds like a bass player.


This joke is over a half of century and old and it never loses it's effect. lol


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## Strobe (Aug 17, 2021)

Singers for cover band material are a dime a dozen. It's basically karaoke for them, they do not have to write anything. By the same token, cover bands are more like a business than other bands (partly because it's one of the few ways to reliably make money in music). Everyone seems to agree to fire her. Fire her. If you are on the fence, let her know that she is on her last chance and has to be timely and professional. I would not even bother with that though - she does not seem to have the personal qualities necessary to do the job well.

Edit: The only thing I think you are off base on is the singer saying she cannot do certain songs. Vocal chords are not like a normal instrument. They do not all have the same range. Some songs I cannot do at all. Some songs I cannot do without being very uncomfortable. I am a little surprised that RESPECT gave her trouble as it is not very high - but voices are kind of funny like this. You should find a singer who has it in their range - but as a bassist/guitarist/singer in various bands - pushing the singer to do a song that is uncomfortable for them to sing is kind of crappy. (P.S. You should still fire her)


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## BillCosby (Aug 17, 2021)

Is she hot, tho?


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## brector (Aug 17, 2021)

BillCosby said:


> Is she hot, tho?


She has to be for all this drama


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## LostTheTone (Aug 17, 2021)

Strobe said:


> Singers for cover band material are a dime a dozen. It's basically karaoke for them, they do not have to write anything. By the same token, cover bands are more like a business than other bands (partly because it's one of the few ways to reliably make money in music). Everyone seems to agree to fire her. Fire her. If you are on the fence, let her know that she is on her last chance and has to be timely and professional. I would not even bother with that though - she does not seem to have the personal qualities necessary to do the job well.
> 
> Edit: The only thing I think you are off base on is the singer saying she cannot do certain songs. Vocal chords are not like a normal instrument. They do not all have the same range. Some songs I cannot do at all. Some songs I cannot do without being very uncomfortable. I am a little surprised that RESPECT gave her trouble as it is not very high - but voices are kind of funny like this. You should find a singer who has it in their range - but as a bassist/guitarist/singer in various bands - pushing the singer to do a song that is uncomfortable for them to sing is kind of crappy. (P.S. You should still fire her)



Completely agree with this, and I say that as a singer from a half dozen cover bands. 

Sure, a good singer is important, but a good singer is also one who shows up on time, sober and ready to go. Even the likes of Steve Tyler and Axl Rose (ie, legit spectacular vocalists who were also effectively indispensable to bands that made millions) pissed off their bandmates enough to trigger walk outs. 

And, frankly, remember the story of Black Sabbath - Ozzy gets restless and uppity and starts to be a problem, Tony Iommi says "Never mind, we'll just get a new Ozzy" and they ended up with Dio on vocals. The lesson here is that you totally can find a new Ozzy. You might not instantly find a perfect singer, but you can find someone who is better to work with who is good enough. 

I do also agree that you shouldn't be _too_ harsh on singers generally if they can't/won't do certain songs. There's plenty of stuff that's theoretically inside my range but which I just _hate_ trying to sing, especially sing live where I need to do a whole set. The last cover band I was in did a mix of songs with male and female singers, including Exs and Ohs by Elle King. The pitch isn't a problem, it's that in the chorus there's a run of three consecutive notes but the first one needs to be in my falsetto, the next two need to go back to my normal voice, and it's quick and needs to be precise and I just dreaded performing it because if I fucked it up I would look like a prize bell end. Oh and it's repeated a LOT in that song. And you only need to get it wrong once. 

Now... I don't think that's what is happening with your singer. I think she's being a diva and is just bored of doing RESPECT. It's a big crowd pleaser and you'll get a good crowd reaction, and as a covers band the worst thing is to have a crowd who just doesn't give a crap. Even if she was struggling with it somehow (don't know how exactly), you could just stick it up at the end of the set to get a nice pop and then she can take a proper rest.


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## Jeffrey Newton (Aug 17, 2021)

Riffer said:


> So my band has a issue with our singer. It's been going on for awhile now and it's coming to a head soon. I'll just list the things we are dealing with and see if I can get some feedback/opinions
> 
> - Unreliable transportation. They have gone through 4 cars in 6 years. This in turn puts unnecessary stress on the other band members when we are on time to the gig but she is running late because she had to borrow a car or even worse Uber to a gig. We then have to talk to the sound guy and let him know that we won't be able to do a complete soundcheck because of her lateness. At clubs/casinos this is a very very bad look. She's also been so late because of car problems that she almost missed the first dance songs at a wedding we were performing at. And just last gig she showed up 20 minutes before we were suppose to start when I sent a note out 3 days prior saying that the venue specifically says to be there 1 hour before we start.
> 
> ...


How do you know when a chick singer is at your front door for an appointment? Because you hear her fumbling for the key that she can't find, and when she finally finds it, she comes in late....


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## J3rryAttrick (Aug 17, 2021)

S920e said:


> This joke is over a half of century and old and it never loses it's effect. lol



Sadly, it came to mind because it's MY bass player. 
We've got a festival gig Friday and this mother fucking DUI having, mouth breathing idiot just pulled the "i'm trying to get a ride guys" while we sat at the rehearsal space all day yesterday. That, and I'm sick of having to write his basslines. 
I think this thread just made me realize we need to kick him out tbh lol


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## Riffer (Aug 17, 2021)

Thanks for all the responses. I know it seems very cut and dry, and to me it is, but a few members of the band want to give her an ultimatum before we make a decision. Basically see how she reacts when confronted and base our decision on that. I just don't think she will see what our problems are and will probably deflect and not take any responsibility.



Sephael said:


> NTAH up to your disregard for strained vocal cords. You could bash your guitar to bits and have a backup ready to play for <$500, don’t be a twat and dismiss potential bodily injury because you equate it to your guitar.





Strobe said:


> Edit: The only thing I think you are off base on is the singer saying she cannot do certain songs. Vocal chords are not like a normal instrument. They do not all have the same range. Some songs I cannot do at all. Some songs I cannot do without being very uncomfortable. I am a little surprised that RESPECT gave her trouble as it is not very high - but voices are kind of funny like this. You should find a singer who has it in their range - but as a bassist/guitarist/singer in various bands - pushing the singer to do a song that is uncomfortable for them to sing is kind of crappy. (P.S. You should still fire her)



She said she would sing the songs only at weddings but as a band we decided months ago so that we shouldn't have songs that we only play at certain gigs. We should have a song list of songs that are all great and that we could play anywhere. Respect crushes at any place we play. A club, casino, private event, wedding, dive bar, etc. She is trying to dictate what songs we do because she doesn't "like" singing certain songs. Also let's say it IS because her voice is giving her problems. Well she goes out on our off nights and goes to see other musician friends at local bars and gets up and sings songs with them and put unnecessary stress on her voice when she shouldn't. And like @Strobe said, RESPECT is not very high. She belts out other stuff like Whitney Houston and Journey but then can't do Respect? She doesn't do any type of vocal practice or voice exercises that I've ever seen. We even said hey let's just tune down 1/2 step and she got all bent out of shape about it. She said "It sounds weird". She doesn't understand keys or why we move the chords around to make it easier for her and for us.


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## Rubbishplayer (Aug 17, 2021)

> We even said hey let's just tune down 1/2 step and she got all bent out of shape about it. She said "It sounds weird". She doesn't understand keys or why we move the chords around to make it easier for her and for us.



Maybe she has perfect pitch? I can play Hendrix songs in any key, but they only sound right to me in the original key, with the guitar tuned down a semitone (well that, and played better than I do, natch)...


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## LostTheTone (Aug 17, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Also let's say it IS because her voice is giving her problems. Well she goes out on our off nights and goes to see other musician friends at local bars and gets up and sings songs with them and put unnecessary stress on her voice when she shouldn't



See that just makes it worse, and it honestly makes me mad at her.

Oh the poor love strained her vocal chords dicking around on her off nights? Well suck it up.


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## budda (Aug 17, 2021)

If you guys get paid, treat it as a job . Her 3 strikes seem to have been used.

Now you also have to decide if you want to be in a band that gives obvious issues this many passes.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 17, 2021)

She must be stupid hot and y'all are secretly crushing on her. Any other band would have bounced her to the curb by now.


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## McBlaster (Aug 17, 2021)

She has a terrible case of LSD, lead singer disease. Replace her ASAP, if you don't its then equally the rest of the bands fault.


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## Dushan S (Aug 17, 2021)

I kind of agree with Rubbishplayer, but I will also try to give you a different angle.

Maybe it's just me but I feel there is a problem within a band, apart from the singer. The rest of you should be on the same page when it comes to what is acceptable, what is good business and what is not. One of the reasons she acts like this may be that the rest of you do not react in the same way about her acting up at the moment it's happening. If one of you thinks she is doing something wrong, and tells her about it, she acts like she doesn't care and the rest of you stay silent, there is a problem within the bend and she is kind of a canary in the coalmine. Things like these should not necessarily lead to meetings. First time when someone fucks up something, there should be clear signal from the rest of the band that it is not acceptable and that the next time something else happens, this member is out of the band for good. The rest of you have let all of this happen by not acting when it was needed.

This is the reason I have never got to know successful cover band that is democracy, someone needs to be the band leader. Authority may come from the character, or it is a best player by far, or he manages band, it depends. In your case, her behavior is just a part of the problem, the other part is that there is no united front, there is no clear reaction from the all of you not taking the shit from her.
When it comes to meeting with her, there should be consensus from the rest of you before the meeting, what is acceptable as a clear sign of changing the behavior. It is important, because it may end up with her saying in unclear terms "things will be better" and some of the band members could be OK with that.

Also, would you be open to have two singers? Not sure how it is where you live, but over here, these kind of bands will often have two vocals, usually male/female combination or two females. Male female combination is good because it allows the bend to have much wider range of repertoire. More range - more gigs. Two female singers have added benefit of keeping frontwomans ego in check. It can be REALLY different situation when singer is at least subconsciously aware that band can play gig without her just fine. Also two god female singers can really put on amazing show for the audience, and it can sound amazing.

I wouldn't do any behind the scenes stuff some people have suggested. At least in my case I really feel it is important to be honest and upfront, to be fair to your crew. People may agree with something you want to do about other band member on the surface, but they will think that someone else or you may also do something to them behind their back. Being honest and direct assures people I am working with that they will be treated in best possible way by me if there is a problem. So if you want to replace the singer, just clear the situation with her and THEN look for the new singer. Treat her as you would like to be treated by others. And if possible do it on the good terms. I would try to say positive things, try to make her feel that she is decent person and good singer but that all of you are not on the same page, I would wish her all the best and even offer her to find her a new band or some other kind of help if needed. Don't turn this meeting into a courtroom putting her on the defensive and using that chance to attack her and throw at her all the things you feel wronged by her through the years. Don't attack her as a person, make sure she knows you understand how she sees the situation, but make sure that it is about business and not on the personal level.

One solution I would try, if band is not on the same page about replacing her, to tell her openly that you want to have two singers so you can play with her but also play gigs as the one you missed because of the vaccine. I would offer that to her, and say that this idea is because you really understand her situation and character and don't want to necessary replace her, but you all need the money and can't afford to lose gigs.

But back to the beginning of my post, I think the problem is within the rest of you. There should be someone that even in a band democracy has a vote that is kind of bigger than all other votes, if you know what I mean. If your post/question is something that only you think about and the rest of the band is not completely agreeing, maybe you are the one that should make a new band, or split from the members who are not on the same page. It is important to understand what relationship dynamics within the band have led to this situation and make sure that in the future things work in a different, better way.


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## James W Thomas (Aug 17, 2021)

A few thoughts from someone that's worked with more than a few female vocalists: if you're working with an agent and they are aware that she's problematic, you may already be losing gigs because you aren't getting calls first. They don't want to stake their reputations on a vocalist with behavior problems. You're honestly better off with an ok vocalist with a pro attitude than a stellar vocalist with all of these issues.

Where I did the bulk of my work (SoCal), it wasn't weird at all do casual gigs with other vocalists/bands from time to time, and this is a great way to get to know a replacement vocalist. If you have gigs lined up you could either plan to do them as a trial with a possible new vocalist (under a different band name), or keep using your current vocalist while doing some casual gigs with a potential new vocalist as a "get to know you." If you have a good agent, they may be able to connect you with a possible new singer - but use care here so that the agent doesn't perceive your band as broken and not bookable in the meantime.

I want to echo what others have said about cover bands and democracracies: I wish they worked, but I never made a reliable living at it until I stepped up to being a bandleader. You can be in this role and get a lot of input from your regular players, but being able to make the tough calls on your own (and maybe make a little bit extra for being the one that does all the extra work getting bookings, etc.) will keep things moving much more smoothly over time. If you and the existing band make a change, consider NOT making the new singer an equal partner exactly - that sounds harsh, but think about it.

Last, I don't know where you are geographically, but I can't imagine that this vocalist isn't replaceable. Even finding someone young and inexperienced but with a great voice and attitude can work out really well as opposed to sticking with someone with established bad habits. And as for her existing relationships with venues, they know she's unreliable too. They'll at least understand you need to make a change, if not welcome it. The only venues that might not are likely to be bars, and you sound ready to graduate from those anyway.

Good luck - this is tough stuff and why (besides being over road life) part of why I'm not doing this for a living anymore!


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## beerandbeards (Aug 17, 2021)

Paul D’anno, Ozzy Osbourne, Steve Perry, David Lee Roth, etc.

you can parts ways and still be successful. Do it and enjoy less stress

(don’t take advice from me. I’m barely a basement guitarist anymore)


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## sepsis311 (Aug 18, 2021)

Edit: duplicate post


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## sepsis311 (Aug 18, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> See that just makes it worse, and it honestly makes me mad at her.
> 
> Oh the poor love strained her vocal chords dicking around on her off nights? Well suck it up.


Shes singing songs she likes and is comfortable with when she goes on stage with other bands. I actually thought a lot about this today despite not knowing the OP, and probably had better things to do. It led me to believe that perhaps understanding will go a long way.

Again though it comes down to talent. When watching videos of the band, does the OP cringe and think ,"well at least we have a singer" or does he think, "she really is good, always on key and sounds like the albums." That makes the difference whether or not the issues are worth resolving.

Honestly we're just shooting in the dark. A performance video of some kind would really help. Is she good? Is the band good? (no offense).


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## KolArdins (Aug 18, 2021)

That's a tough one. Based on what you've said I'd probably wait till she got to practice and then have a short loop written, maybe 8 bars and all sing the following words to it:

Heeeeeeeeeeeey
You're fucking fired
Now turn the fuck around
And get the fuck out


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## LostTheTone (Aug 18, 2021)

sepsis311 said:


> Shes singing songs she likes and is comfortable with when she goes on stage with other bands. I actually thought a lot about this today despite not knowing the OP, and probably had better things to do. It led me to believe that perhaps understanding will go a long way.



Sure, but we're not talking about her having a side project that is an artsy creative outlet for her. If she wants to be in someone else's band, she has that option. But if she wants to be in the main band at all (and get paid) then she has to do covers band stuff. 

And, frankly, I don't buy that jumping up and doing a few songs of karaoke (effectively) is causing her voice problems. Yes, you can strain your voice, but singers still practise, you know? I'm not saying that everyone should have an iron larynx, or that they have to do hours every day to call themselves a singer. I'm just saying that practising a half hour or an hour a day is a normal thing, and it shouldn't strain anything at that sort of level. Doing a couple of extra songs just shouldn't make the difference unless she's doing something wrong.


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## nightlight (Aug 18, 2021)

With regard to what you said about her having a following, maybe you should just be a bit calmer when you guys explain the situation and try to work things out. Never pays to burn bridges, you just need to stress how "we're all professionals, so let's act like it". 

The vaccination thing is another thing altogether. I don't really begrudge people if they're not vaccinated, but if it poses a risk to your loved ones, I'd say the discomfort is warranted and you should find someone who's not jittery about getting jabbed.


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## LostTheTone (Aug 18, 2021)

nightlight said:


> The vaccination thing is another thing altogether. I don't really begrudge people if they're not vaccinated, but if it poses a risk to your loved ones, I'd say the discomfort is warranted and you should find someone who's not jittery about getting jabbed.



I don't even think there is a need to talk about the actual medical whatever of Covid. It's a professionalism thing again. 

Whether or not you like it, there are going to be venues that want everyone to be vaccinated. There are going to be customers who will ask about it. If you're going to be an actual gigging band at the moment then this going to come up. No, it might not lose you too many gigs all told, but you want every gig you can get, so just be professional and make it easy to get gigs.

If I had a band member who was like a militant atheist (or feminist possibly?) who would openly mock people getting married and just couldn't help themselves then it'd be the same deal. Dude; you're entitled to your strongly held beliefs but when you're sabotaging our ability to actually be a band that shit is not ok.


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## nightlight (Aug 19, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I don't even think there is a need to talk about the actual medical whatever of Covid. It's a professionalism thing again.
> 
> Whether or not you like it, there are going to be venues that want everyone to be vaccinated. There are going to be customers who will ask about it. If you're going to be an actual gigging band at the moment then this going to come up. No, it might not lose you too many gigs all told, but you want every gig you can get, so just be professional and make it easy to get gigs.
> 
> If I had a band member who was like a militant atheist (or feminist possibly?) who would openly mock people getting married and just couldn't help themselves then it'd be the same deal. Dude; you're entitled to your strongly held beliefs but when you're sabotaging our ability to actually be a band that shit is not ok.



At the same time, I don't see any point in trying to force anyone to be vaccinated just to gig. Doesn't seem like a logical reason for anyone to get vaccinated, imho.

I'd be more concerned about the fact that the singer doesn't wear a mask and roams around freely. That could pose a risk to other band members and their families, which is why I indicated that I would base my decision largely upon that.

Again, there don't appear to be any ego or performance issues, the main problem appears to be the person coming late to jams. And you need to explain that in a polite way which doesn't burn any bridges.

For example, I would suggest that the band have a rule that if a person comes late for practice, they put $5 in a band fund.

And if God forbid they come late for a performance, their pay should be prorated according to how late they were vis-a-vis the entire set.

Just be polite and you'll likely sort this out without any animosity. After all, if the singer is good, you just need to ease all the tensions and get back to being friends with each other. You just need to explain it to her as "professionals to a professional".

Throwing out members is never the solution unless there is absolutely no other option. After all, your band is getting offered $3.5k for gigs. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.


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## LostTheTone (Aug 19, 2021)

Thing is though, it really seems to me like all these issues are connected. If you really like the singer then fine you can accommodate them as best you can, but if the prospect of being paid to come and do something they enjoy doesn't motivate them sufficiently then... What can you do?

It sounds a bit wankery, but bands need people to be committed; at least committed enough to actually meet the minimum requirements to show up on time and play the bloody gig.


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## Riffer (Aug 19, 2021)

We are planning to have the talk/meeting before a gig (wedding) we have on Sunday up in New York. Not ideal, but if we keep pushing it off it'll just get harder to do. I'm actually going to take some of the replies I've seen here and bring them to the other members of the band for consideration. There are some that I think are good advice and come from a different perspective which is always good to have. At the end of the day though, this is a business and should be treated as such. Thanks again for any/all advice, opinions, thoughts, and jabs/jokes lol. I appreciate the responses.


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## budda (Aug 19, 2021)

Having a stressful meeting right before an important gig is not the best idea . I would not risk messing up someone's biggest day with band drama.


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## TedEH (Aug 19, 2021)

^ If _anything_ is going to tank your reputation, it's going to be stirring up drama at the events you're hired to play. Definitely don't risk roping your clients and events into things.



nightlight said:


> Throwing out members is never the solution unless there is absolutely no other option. After all, your band is getting offered $3.5k for gigs. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.


Or you could look at it exactly the opposite way - _the band_ was offered the gig, not the singer. The singer is not the band. The whole thread reads to me like the singer is the weakest part of the band. Tightening up the weakest aspect of the band is going to improve your prospects, not ruin them. If losing the singer means you've lost all of your following as a band, then maybe the band wasn't that strong to begin with, and you've still learned something valuable.


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## Humbuck (Aug 19, 2021)

BEFORE the gig? Big mistake unless you don't want to play that gig.


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## budda (Aug 19, 2021)

Humbuck said:


> BEFORE the gig? Big mistake unless you don't want to play that gig.



And get blacklisted for ruining a wedding.


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## Millul (Aug 19, 2021)

If you do go for it, please at least film it for all to see 

Had to fire our singer and bassist, a long time back when I was in bands, for similar reasons - had to be done, got done.


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## Ross82 (Aug 19, 2021)

100% dont do it before the gig. In fact you're even better off to do it after the gig to see if she turns up late, or displays any of the other issues you've mentioned and have the discussion after the gig while the behavior is fresh and its not like you're pulling issues out of thin air.


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## Riffer (Aug 19, 2021)

We actually just had a text convo and decided to do it after the gig instead lol. I had a feeling we would change it based on the potential of a problematic scenario if we did it before we have to play.


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## James W Thomas (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm liking the idea of having a different singer just for vaccinated-only gigs (for now). What a great opportunity to make a relatively painless transition - it's a great opportunity to train up someone good but a little green if needed. Having a non-threatening way to keep multiple singers on tap during normal times is really helpful anyway since they're legit more prone to illness (voices are more fragile then hands), etc.


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## JDinSC (Aug 23, 2021)

A lot of good advice here, and I've only read a portion of it in depth, but I feel compelled to share my feelings and an example story.

The behavior has been allowed and not stopped when it started. It's now learned behavior that she is not going to change regardless of what you say. it's now time to "do" something about it.

My example:

A guitarist in my touring original band showed up and performed high on valium once. He received one warning. "Don't do this again, your performance slipped and we had to baby sit your high ass. You're a grown ass man." There was other things, but I draw a line at drug use that affects the professionalism of what was, at this time, a touring original band that was profitable with management and label connections.

He did it again at the next show. I/we fired him at the next rehearsal, took the hit of having to reschedule shows and just yanked the band aid off. We ended up with a much better outcome and in the long run, it was the best call for the band.

If you have a talk with her, sit her down, air the grievances professionally and clearly. Make it clear this much change and that change must be permanent. If it is not changed immediately or any of these behaviors happen just ONCE more, you're done. 

Once you've made this statement, nut up and stick to it. If she takes the band even the least bit serious, she'll make an effort. If she doesn't and screws up, move on. 

Morally and ethically it makes sense, as if you've given her the chance to rectify the situation and you've put the ball in her court.

Is it going to suck? Yes. Is it going to suck any worse than being publicly and professionally shamed by bad behavior and habits of a member of your band? Probably not. Pull the band aid.

Once you've moved on, you can set the bar for your expectations and prevent the learned behavior that is not only wearing on you, but wearing on your other members and WORSE YET, your professional relationships and connections that allow you to do this profitably and with a regular schedule. 

Stop the bleeding before it hurts the band any further.


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## KailM (Aug 23, 2021)

How are we supposed to help you if we’re on page 5 and we still haven’t seen a pic of this chick?


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## LostTheTone (Aug 23, 2021)

KailM said:


> How are we supposed to help you if we’re on page 5 and we still haven’t seen a pic of this chick?



To be fair, if I was the OP I too would worry about ulterior motives from every thirsty motherfucker in this thread. Announcing to the world "Our singer is smoking hot and by the way should we kick her out of our band so she can join your band?" is a bit... You don't get good advice that way, you know?


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## TedEH (Aug 23, 2021)

I agree 100%, but at the same time, there's something to be said about the added popularity/success a band can find on account of said thirsty motherfuckers. I wouldn't be proud to factor that into whether or not to keep a singer around but at the same time there's some truth to it.


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## KailM (Aug 23, 2021)

I was totally joking.


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## LostTheTone (Aug 24, 2021)

KailM said:


> I was totally joking.



I know man, but many a truth is told in jest, you know? 

And you are like the eighth person in this thread to say "Alright, let's have a look at 'er..." .


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## NoodleFace (Aug 24, 2021)

Wow.. I would've fired long ago. You guys have patience.


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## michael_bolton (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm assuming by now you've looked for a potential replacement. I would obv factor that situation into whatever decisions you'll be making - you probably don't want flat out kick her out until you at least audition someone - not like she stole shit or puked on the amp lol.

also you never know what you're walking into with other ppl - with her issues shit seems somewhat fixable as opposed to e.g. substance abuse issues. she just sounds like an airhead tbh.

so I guess my take on it is make sure you have a plan before making any drastic decisions.

/captain obvious


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## metallicity (Aug 24, 2021)

Riffer said:


> We are planning to have the talk/meeting before a gig (wedding) we have on Sunday up in New York. Not ideal, but if we keep pushing it off it'll just get harder to do. I'm actually going to take some of the replies I've seen here and bring them to the other members of the band for consideration. There are some that I think are good advice and come from a different perspective which is always good to have. At the end of the day though, this is a business and should be treated as such. Thanks again for any/all advice, opinions, thoughts, and jabs/jokes lol. I appreciate the responses.
> 
> We actually just had a text convo and decided to do it after the gig instead lol. I had a feeling we would change it based on the potential of a problematic scenario if we did it before we have to play.



Wondering if this was Sunday the 22nd or an upcoming Sunday?


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## Riffer (Aug 26, 2021)

ijohnh67 said:


> Wondering if this was Sunday the 22nd or an upcoming Sunday?



It was this past Sunday the 22nd. We are actually having the discussion at our rehearsal tonight instead. We all just wanted to get home after the wedding on Sunday since it was super late at night and there was a tropical depression hitting New York at that time so we didn't want to have to stay up that way any longer than we had to. We'll see what happens tonight.


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## LostTheTone (Aug 26, 2021)

Riffer said:


> It was this past Sunday the 22nd. We are actually having the discussion at our rehearsal tonight instead. We all just wanted to get home after the wedding on Sunday since it was super late at night and there was a tropical depression hitting New York at that time so we didn't want to have to stay up that way any longer than we had to. We'll see what happens tonight.



Tropical depression would be a good name for a band.


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## ArtDecade (Aug 26, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Tropical depression would be a good name for a band.



Taken by a Filipino Reggae band:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Depression_(band)


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## bostjan (Aug 26, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Filipino Reggae


Sounds like a musical genre I need to research.

Anyway, is anyone taking bets as to whether the singer shows up for rehearsal tonight or not?


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## ArtDecade (Aug 26, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Anyway, is anyone taking bets as to whether the singer shows up for rehearsal tonight or not?



What are the odds on no one showing up for rehearsal?


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## bostjan (Aug 26, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> What are the odds on no one showing up for rehearsal?


Ha ha, happened to me before.

A band I was in years ago had a problem with the bass player, who wasn't learning songs or showing up to rehearsals. Everyone talked to each other on the side and decided to fire him at the next rehearsal, but no one wanted to actually be the one to fire him. No one showed up for practice except the bass player, who was so mad that he made the effort to show and no one else did, that he quit. Problem solved, I guess?


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## Xaios (Aug 26, 2021)

I demand a livestream.


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## DiezelMonster (Aug 26, 2021)

Wow we are on the 6th page of this? 

Good luck guys, Get her outta there!


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## LostTheTone (Aug 27, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Ha ha, happened to me before.
> 
> A band I was in years ago had a problem with the bass player, who wasn't learning songs or showing up to rehearsals. Everyone talked to each other on the side and decided to fire him at the next rehearsal, but no one wanted to actually be the one to fire him. No one showed up for practice except the bass player, who was so mad that he made the effort to show and no one else did, that he quit. Problem solved, I guess?



I can see it now... 

Rehearsal studio owner: "Hey are you Dave?"
Bassist: "Yeah"
Rehearsal studio owner: "Someone left a message for you..." *pats pockets, and pulls out a post it* "You're fired."
Bassist: "What?"
Rehearsal studio owner: "Sorry dude. Anyway... Have a good practise, just drop me the cash when you leave..."


----------



## Riffer (Aug 27, 2021)

Well.......

Had to cancel rehearsal last night because our drummer got Covid 

Once he is good to go and clear of Covid the conversation will happen. We thought about doing a Zoom meeting but we really think it needs to be in person and not a virtual thing.


----------



## ArtDecade (Aug 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Well.......
> 
> Had to cancel rehearsal last night because our drummer got Covid
> 
> Once he is good to go and clear of Covid the conversation will happen. We thought about doing a Zoom meeting but we really think it needs to be in person and not a virtual thing.



This thread will never end.


----------



## Xaios (Aug 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Had to cancel rehearsal last night because our drummer got Covid


Regardless of present band situation, that sucks. Wishing him a speedy recovery.


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## bostjan (Aug 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Well.......
> 
> Had to cancel rehearsal last night because our drummer got Covid
> 
> Once he is good to go and clear of Covid the conversation will happen. We thought about doing a Zoom meeting but we really think it needs to be in person and not a virtual thing.



I hope your drummer has a speedy recovery.


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## fantom (Aug 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I know it seems very cut and dry, and to me it is, but a few members of the band want to give her an ultimatum before we make a decision. Basically see how she reacts when confronted and base our decision on that. I just don't think she will see what our problems are and will probably deflect and not take any responsibility



As someone else pointed out, this is a far bigger problem than your singer. It sounds to me like your band never had a serious conversation about values, responsibilities, decision making, and goals. This is pretty common stuff for teamwork to be effective. The number of times I hear "alignment" in work conversations is surprisingly high for a reason. People are hard. Working with people who aren't on the same page is a recipe for disaster. If you can't even agree on the criteria you use for decision making, you are going to be in an endless loop of "what if".



Riffer said:


> We are planning to have the talk/meeting before a gig (wedding) we have on Sunday up in New York. Not ideal, but if we keep pushing it off it'll just get harder to do. I'm actually going to take some of the replies I've seen here and bring them to the other members of the band for consideration. There are some that I think are good advice and come from a different perspective which is always good to have. At the end of the day though, this is a business and should be treated as such. Thanks again for any/all advice, opinions, thoughts, and jabs/jokes lol. I appreciate the responses.



At the rate you are going, you better be ready to be an instrumental band so you don't ruin your reputation. I saw later that you realized this was a bad idea... But wow.



Riffer said:


> Well.......
> 
> Had to cancel rehearsal last night because our drummer got Covid
> 
> Once he is good to go and clear of Covid the conversation will happen. We thought about doing a Zoom meeting but we really think it needs to be in person and not a virtual thing.



Well now you have a really good talking point for why the band requires every member to get vaccinated.


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## metallicity (Aug 27, 2021)

Wishing your drummer a 100% recovery.


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## LostTheTone (Aug 27, 2021)

fantom said:


> As someone else pointed out, this is a far bigger problem than your singer. It sounds to me like your band never had a serious conversation about values, responsibilities, decision making, and goals. This is pretty common stuff for teamwork to be effective. The number of times I hear "alignment" in work conversations is surprisingly high for a reason. People are hard. Working with people who aren't on the same page is a recipe for disaster. If you can't even agree on the criteria you use for decision making, you are going to be in an endless loop of "what if".



There's no need to dress it up in such high minded terms, IMHO.

You don't need to have agreed upon values to play some gigs, make a few bucks and have a good time. And if someone is preventing the playing of gigs, making of bucks or having of good times, then can fuck right off.

Much like you, I hear this shit at work every damn day. And this results in endless conversations about making plans, or developing a strategy for the making of plans, or the implementation of principles for the development of strategies for the making of plans. And it's pointless, and it leads to meetings about other meetings. 

The problem the OP and the band are having is not that they are insufficiently corporate; it's that they are (understandably) not inclined to having awkward and painful confrontations with someone who might well scream, claw, cry or start slapping people upside the dick. This is normal. 

You don't need values or decision making criteria. You just need to bite the bullet and do something unpleasant.


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## fantom (Aug 27, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> There's no need to dress it up in such high minded terms, IMHO.
> 
> You don't need to have agreed upon values to play some gigs, make a few bucks and have a good time. And if someone is preventing the playing of gigs, making of bucks or having of good times, then can fuck right off.
> 
> ...



I agree to a point. Ignoring the corporate parts of things, there is value in discussing why people don't agree on whether or not a singer should be fired independent of the singer. If someone thinks the band needs her stage presence, social network, business relationships, etc., The band can have a serious discussion about what they want out of her or a new band member. If they want to be just a party band, they probably wouldn't be taking paying gigs and annoyed that the singer isn't vaccinated when they can't make it. So ya, I agree that bands should be fun, but eventually you either become more professional or break up.

The problem right now is you have someone complaining that a band member is going to the beach on weekends, or doing karaoke with friends. He clearly doesn't understand which qualities of a band member are worth focusing on. But perhaps a conversation with band members will show that her taking care of her voice or fixing her car are values that they can't let go. If having a psuedo corpspeak conversation helps them figure out exactly why each other don't agree on what to do about it, it will end better than her staying or getting fired and people resenting the situation.


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## Emperoff (Aug 29, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Well.......
> 
> Had to cancel rehearsal last night because our drummer got Covid
> 
> Once he is good to go and clear of Covid the conversation will happen. We thought about doing a Zoom meeting but we really think it needs to be in person and not a virtual thing.









Wish your drummer a 100% recovery as well. I went through that shit too.


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## mmr007 (Aug 29, 2021)

I honestly put less time and thought into divorcing my wife and we had three kids, a house and 4 cars together and she was super hot and swallowed my balls every night so I'm not sure I understand what kinda hold this singer has on your bandmates that you guys can't just dump this chick.

Sorry about your drummer....at least he'll have some natural immunity now. I had to get the synthetic vaccine with government tracker. It's not so bad. The black Tahoes with tinted windows don't follow me as much as I thought and if the Jewish space lasers malfunction allowing aliens to get past our defense forces and I get abducted, al least the feds will be the first to know and save me before I get anally probed. I gotta go....Q just posted


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## LostTheTone (Aug 29, 2021)

fantom said:


> I agree to a point. Ignoring the corporate parts of things, there is value in discussing why people don't agree on whether or not a singer should be fired independent of the singer. If someone thinks the band needs her stage presence, social network, business relationships, etc., The band can have a serious discussion about what they want out of her or a new band member. If they want to be just a party band, they probably wouldn't be taking paying gigs and annoyed that the singer isn't vaccinated when they can't make it. So ya, I agree that bands should be fun, but eventually you either become more professional or break up.
> 
> The problem right now is you have someone complaining that a band member is going to the beach on weekends, or doing karaoke with friends. He clearly doesn't understand which qualities of a band member are worth focusing on. But perhaps a conversation with band members will show that her taking care of her voice or fixing her car are values that they can't let go. If having a psuedo corpspeak conversation helps them figure out exactly why each other don't agree on what to do about it, it will end better than her staying or getting fired and people resenting the situation.



Thing is... If the singer is getting you gigs then you have to take the rough with the smooth. She's annoying but she's making you money, so whatever. But that's not been the context of this discussion at all.

She's a pain in the arse. Sure, if she's the reason you make money then that's worth a pain in the arse, but as far as we know she's not. QED.


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## Calibix (Sep 24, 2021)

I know this is kind of a necro, but I really need to know what went down with this chick for my sanity.


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## Riffer (Sep 27, 2021)

Calibix said:


> I know this is kind of a necro, but I really need to know what went down with this chick for my sanity.


I was wondering if someone would post and ask what happened lol....



So we had the meeting at rehearsal a week and a half ago. A few things happened between my last post about it here and the actual meeting. First thing is that my drummer got through his COVID sickness and is feeling all better now. Thanks for the well wishes about that from everyone. Next thing was that her attitude was still shitty and she was putting in very little effort during gigs. We played a wedding and AGAIN she did not use her in ear monitors and instead would lean out a little past the front of the playing area and try to use the sound coming from the mains for her reference for her key or what have you. She couldn’t hear the guitar in one song and was taking forever to come in with her vocal parts. I turned to her and point to my in ears, then to her ears, and said “where are your in ear monitors?” She just gave me a death stare like how dare I even say that to her. Also she again didn’t want to stick to our setlist that we designed during the wedding and it completely killed the dance floor 3 different times.


So we schedule rehearsal and run through a few songs for upcoming gigs. Then we discuss some band business and then I just start the convo about her in ear monitors because I need answers. I was very calm and just asked again why she isn’t using them. She goes “they don’t work”. So I ask for her to explain if she means they don’t work because they are actually broken or if “they don’t work” means she can’t get them to sound good. She says they keep cutting signal in and out. I tell her either way she needs to go buy another pair because we are not going back to stage wedges for monitors and she can not try and use the main speakers as reference. She just had no response to that.


Our bass player chimes in and is basically echoing what I’m saying. All in a very business like way. Not being attacking or passive aggressive or anything. We ask her if she has anything she wants to talk about and she says she had a list of stuff written down but forgot the list at home. She says she didn’t feel like we “supported” her this past summer because we didn’t give her rides to gigs when her car was busted. But the reason we didn’t give her rides is because she’s the only person in the band to not be vaccinated and she was going out like there wasn’t a pandemic happening the whole time. We told her numerous times that if she got the vaccine we would be more open to helping her with rides. So her saying we didn’t support her was a bullshit call.


That’s pretty much when our keyboardist was just flat out tired of her attitude and basically told her that he wants to talk about specifics. So he brought up how she’s killed shows by deviating for our set list, she doesn’t want to put in the work to progress with the rest of us with learning new songs, phones it in at gigs, has no concept of sound equipment but then wants to critique the sound, is nowhere to be found when we need to sound check, and basically all the stuff I’ve mentioned in this thread.


She didn’t say too much and just stood there and looked at her phone a bit and every once in a while would react to something we said with a “well, that’s not how I see it” but refused to elaborate or explain why she felt that way. At the end of the night we basically said this is the way the band is headed so if you want to do this and put in the work then lets fucking go, if not, then we need to figure out a way to part ways that is good for both parties. They keyboardist was a little more blunt and said “if you don’t want to do this then leave” hahaha.


Since that meeting we’ve played 3 gigs. We didn’t allow her to deviate from the set at a wedding we did and the dance floor was packed all night because we know how to structure the set. She is still phoning it in at gigs though, was sitting in her car when we were trying to sound check, cancelled a rehearsal because she wanted to see her nephew when she knows we have songs to learn for a wedding coming up and the rehearsal has been on the calendar for a month already, didn’t plug her mic in during a wedding so when we are sound checking she’s all confused as to why her voice isn’t coming through the speakers and get’s pissed that nobody did it for her. We had a rehearsal last Thursday and she was even phoning it in there. She was not really singing it the way she would sing it at a gig. She was just using falsetto the whole time and just mumbling through the words. We’ve always said that you practice at home and rehearsal sound be where you get it tight with the band. You shouldn’t be learning the words AT rehearsal. Between songs at rehearsal we would be discussing maybe arrangement ideas or saying hey lets run the 2nd chorus into the bridge to get down the transitions and she wouldn’t even chime in with anything.


So basically we told her our problems at that initial meeting and she really didn’t change all that much when given the ultimatum of putting in the work or parting ways. We are already talking to a few other singers to help us out if we have to quickly can her or if she just says “I’m done”. We are prepared. The only good thing that happened was that she actually got her 1st shot of the vaccine. But I wonder how much of that was us telling her she should, or if she just did it because she wants to go to some concerts and they are requiring proof of vaccination at some places. She definitely cares about having fun over doing it for the safety of others I would say.


It’s going about how I thought it would go. She felt attacked and that she didn’t do anything bad/wrong and we are ganging up on her and had no real explanation for anything. We are waiting for her to show us this list of stuff she wants to talk about but I think it’s 1 of 2 things. There is no list because who doesn’t write a list on their god damn phone or 2 there is a list but it’s all emotional things like the “You guys don’t support me when I need a ride” stuff instead of what we are bringing up which is more of “You aren’t following the plan we have for this band and it’s making our gigs difficult and you don’t understand logistics and how to lead a band”.


Anyway, if you read all that incoherent gibberish, I hope it made some sort of sense. Obviously there are some nuances that can’t be understood over text and in the moment it’s a different vibe and I’m sure I’m forgetting some details but the majority of it is there.


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## chipchappy (Sep 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> update



FIrst off, your keyboardist sounds like a real-ass dude. Props to him. 

Second, if you've had the 'talk' and shes not willing to improve, I'd just fire her. I know you have gigs and you guys are busy, but I wouldn't even give her much longer to provide some list or something. People like that don't change. Find another singer, make sure they're on the same page as you, move on.


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## Riffer (Sep 27, 2021)

chipchappy said:


> FIrst off, your keyboardist sounds like a real-ass dude. Props to him.
> 
> Second, if you've had the 'talk' and shes not willing to improve, I'd just fire her. I know you have gigs and you guys are busy, but I wouldn't even give her much longer to provide some list or something. People like that don't change. Find another singer, make sure they're on the same page as you, move on.



Oh for sure. He's a no nonsense type of guy when it comes to this stuff. He sees a problem and then tries to figure out how to fix it logically. Problem is we just let it go for too long before addressing it so now he lets it out all at once. I back him 100% though.

We are already making steps to cover our ass if we need to get rid of her quickly. I think the only reason we haven't done it yet is because the other guitar player and bass player were nervous/anxious about just getting rid of her before the meeting and wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt and maybe she would step up to the plate and we could hash it all out. But now that she's not even participating in the conversation and has not changed their behavior, they are at their wits end and are getting fed up like me and the keyboardist. We have 2 weddings this weekend so we shall see how it goes but it looks like the writing is on the wall.


----------



## MFB (Sep 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> [...] wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt and maybe she would step up to the plate and we could hash it all out.



*re-reads rest of the thread*

...Did they forget who they were dealing with this whole time?


----------



## TedEH (Sep 27, 2021)

Sounds to me like you should finish up whatever engagements you already set up that you need her for, then cut her loose asap. The way you described it makes it sound like you're speaking to a teenager who doesn't really want to be there but doesn't have the communication skills to deal with that professionally. The quicker you rip off that bandaid the better it'll be for everyone. At this point is there really any doubt that this is where it's headed? You can prolong the drama if you really want to, but that's all it is - prolonging the drama.


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## Riffer (Sep 27, 2021)

MFB said:


> *re-reads rest of the thread*
> 
> ...Did they forget who they were dealing with this whole time?



Dude, RIGHT! I just went along with it so when the inevitable happened and she didn't change, it would be even more reason for us to start looking elsewhere for a replacement. Now that basically the rest of the guys see that this is the person she is it won't be a hard sell.


----------



## Ataraxia2320 (Sep 27, 2021)

You're all being treated like a doormat. There is absolutely no reason not to fire this person, it's a question of having the guts to do it or not. 

Listen to your keyboard player.


----------



## LostTheTone (Sep 27, 2021)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> You're all being treated like a doormat. There is absolutely no reason not to fire this person, it's a question of having the guts to do it or not.
> 
> Listen to your keyboard player.



Just adds evidence to the "she might be REALLY hot" side of the debate


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## budda (Sep 27, 2021)

Fire her now and get a fill in for the gigs. Do not wait.


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## Riffer (Sep 27, 2021)

Well now it turns out she has COVID so the weddings for this weekend will be covered by a fill in. I'm excited for that because it will basically be a trial run for what we planned on doing if she quit anyway. Our agency is helping us find a fill in since they have a giant database of singers they use. I think us playing with someone who will actually be professional will just be the cherry on top for us to just boot her.


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## LostTheTone (Sep 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Well now it turns out she has COVID so the weddings for this weekend will be covered by a fill in. I'm excited for that because it will basically be a trial run for what we planned on doing if she quit anyway. Our agency is helping us find a fill in since they have a giant database of singers they use. I think us playing with someone who will actually be professional will just be the cherry on top for us to just boot her.



I never thought I would cheer a positive Covid test but... Well, as long as she doesn't die this will be an excellent coincidence. 

...

I have to ask... Did you pay someone to cough at her or something?

It's ok dude, you can tell us, it's realtalk with the guys. There isn't a jury in the land who would convict anyway. So... Just blink twice if you injected her.


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## MFB (Sep 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Well now it turns out she has COVID so the weddings for this weekend will be covered by a fill in. I'm excited for that because it will basically be a trial run for what we planned on doing if she quit anyway. Our agency is helping us find a fill in since they have a giant database of singers they use. I think us playing with someone who will actually be professional will just be the cherry on top for us to just boot her.



Uh, are you guys getting PCR tests before the wedding to confirm you're not positive yourselves after band practice? Whole band might be MIA if she brought it with her.


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## foreright (Sep 27, 2021)

budda said:


> Fire her now and get a fill in for the gigs. Do not wait.



^ That - no point in waiting, phone her right now - sheesh you guys are more patient than me. I would have had her arse out of there months ago.


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## Riffer (Sep 27, 2021)

MFB said:


> Uh, are you guys getting PCR tests before the wedding to confirm you're not positive yourselves after band practice? Whole band might be MIA if she brought it with her.



We've all gotten rapid tests already and are negative but we are also going to get another test either tomorrow or wednesday. Nobody has any symptoms either. Also our drummer just had it so he should have some decent antibodies and also our other guitar player had it back in June so he should also have some natural antibodies I believe. Also we all wear masks when we rehearsal and at our respective day jobs.


----------



## brector (Sep 27, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Just adds evidence to the "she might be REALLY hot" side of the debate


She has got to be drop dead gorgeous to put up with all this bullshit.


----------



## sleewell (Sep 27, 2021)

ripping off a band aid quickly vs peeling it back slowing and agonizing over every hair that gets pulled out


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## bostjan (Sep 27, 2021)

Wow, how is she not fired? If I would have acted like that in any of my bands, I would have been fired from the first whinge.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Sep 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> I’ve also neglected to mention that she isn’t some young 20 something. *She’s 41*



BRUH

This woman is a disaster! CUT LOOSE

edit: obligatory I hope she recovers fine from COVID tho


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## metallicity (Sep 27, 2021)

I also hope she does not die from covid I wish her a 100% recovery and that she doesn't spread it to anyone else. At least she got the first shot so that should give her a better chance than no shots at all. Glad to hear your drummer recovered too.

The timing of her contracting covid with the gigs scheduled is really quite fortunate so that the band has to work with a fill-in singer so you guys don't have to cancel. I have a feeling it will finally get the rest of your band fully on board to move on without her. I've commented that it might be good to phase in a backup singer as the main singer and other equally lame ideas but after the chance(s) your band gave her, with her failing to step up, it's clear to me that she shouldn't be in your band anymore, let alone any band. She should stick to Karaoke because she just doesn't have the work ethic required to be in a band, that way she can still have her fun without having to put in any real work and your band, and any other band, will not have to endure her unprofessionalism and immaturity.

I'll be interested to hear how those gigs go.


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## TheBlackBard (Sep 27, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I never thought I would cheer a positive Covid test but... Well, as long as she doesn't die this will be an excellent coincidence.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



NVM


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## budda (Sep 27, 2021)

OP, since she basically knows shes out what has you persuaded she's worth keeping around for these shows?


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## TheBlackBard (Sep 27, 2021)

budda said:


> OP, since she basically knows shes out what has you persuaded she's worth keeping around for these shows?



Probably the same thing that made them take this long to get this far in the decision.


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## Demiurge (Sep 27, 2021)

brector said:


> She has got to be drop dead gorgeous to put up with all this bullshit.



People keep saying this, but she could be a 7/10 with good weed connections.


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## Riffer (Sep 27, 2021)

budda said:


> OP, since she basically knows shes out what has you persuaded she's worth keeping around for these shows?



Some of it is probably nervousness of getting rid of the singer that has been in the band for almost 7 years and the fact that a lot of the cover band scene members around here are all friends so we don't want to have this shitty high school drama going on between our friends and have any backlash. I think if there is backlash or drama, once we explain everything like I'm doing in this thread, most musicians in the scene will understand why we did what we did. But we've come to a conclusion that all of that is just going to happen and it's still better than continuing with someone that isn't going to change and be professional. Also since we do deal with an agency and people are hiring us for private events/weddings and paying us a premium, we have to make sure we don't damage those relationships by firing her without talking to the agency about protocols since there are signed contracts involved with certain gigs.


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## bostjan (Sep 27, 2021)

Once I was in a cover band as a fill-in guy. the entire band overhauled a bunch of personnel and I ended up playing with them pretty much as a permanent member (we're talking 5-6 years, gigging not every week, but almost every week). For at least 5 years, it was the same five guys getting along fairly well and having a good time and also making decent money.

Then, ... well, IDK if someone got bored or what, but _one_ of the guys in the band started insisting that we pick up a keyboard player. Then, suddenly, there were 5 of us who had been playing pretty tight with each other for 5 years and one odd man out trying to find a sonic opening to stab in a keyboard chord or whatever. We had tons of songs that originally had keyboard in them, too, but, for example "Highway Star" had a keyboard solo and a guitar solo, so we had switched it to two different guitar solos so that the guitarist who mostly played rhythm could have a minute to grab a spotlight, and, well, now that was out the window. Then, (of course) without consulting anyone, the keyboardist started bringing flutes and saxophones and shit to gigs (without rehearsing on those with us). So, in that case, our drummer was the no-nonsense guy who fired the keyboard player, but then things were never the same after that, and, within two months, the band was no more.

Fast-forward about 12-13 years, and I'm living in another state playing in another band doing pretty much the same thing, and exactly the same scenario plays out, except this time the band was together slightly less time, and instead of improvised jazz flute solos, it was new age sound effects that pissed the drummer off.

Countless bands I've been in went from being a riot to being a drag when someone got fired or replaced or whatever. There have been a few exceptions, though, too...

So yeah, in an established band, like the OP's, things can get dicey when you start changing personnel. Best of luck to you @Riffer !


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## LostTheTone (Sep 27, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> People keep saying this, but she could be a 7/10 with good weed connections.



Potentially. But even in that case, the band seem to have come around to "Ah but if we actually make good money then we can buy our own weed!".

And at some point no matter how superlative her Bristols, or how dank her buds... A constant pain in the arse eventually breaks through.


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## fantom (Sep 27, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Our agency is helping us find a fill in since they have a giant database of singers they use.



Wait you have an agency with a giant database of singers and you spent over 7 pages not firing her?

Talk about luxury of benefit of the doubt.


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## lewis (Sep 28, 2021)

Kick them out and replace them with WAVs on a backing track going to real amps onstage 
It what I'm doing with bass haha.


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## LostTheTone (Sep 28, 2021)

fantom said:


> Wait you have an agency with a giant database of singers and you spent over 7 pages not firing her?
> 
> Talk about luxury of benefit of the doubt.



To be completely fair to the OP; finding a new singer is only half the problem. They have a singer who, despite being a moody cow, impressed them at some point previously. Their complaints aren't that she can't sing, and while I don't think it's been said directly I suspect that she really can go, otherwise they wouldn't tolerate it. 

If you have a good (maybe even great) singer and it's all just attitude then you do end up giving them the benefit of the doubt. Because you know they can tear the place up, and you'll always hope that you can get that back. When you're looking at a new singer who is of unknown range and ability, and who has unknown other commitments or character flaws, it's a big leap.

It took me like three months to join my present band. They had a previous singer (and original member) who had been doing other projects but who re-appeared saying he wanted back in. They had another two guys, and one girl, come and try out with them. This was a band who literally didn't have a singer at all, and who were writing music and aiming squarely at gigs and studio recording. And they still felt obliged to the old guy to give him a chance, and to let everyone they had offered an audition to to actually come have their shot because... Well, they promised. 

And while they didn't say it so bluntly, in the end a good chunk of the decision came down to me being sober(ish), solvent and with a car, and that I got on alright with the lads. All of this non-singing stuff just to avoid the same kind of problems as the OP is having.


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## Riffer (Sep 28, 2021)

fantom said:


> Wait you have an agency with a giant database of singers and you spent over 7 pages not firing her?
> 
> Talk about luxury of benefit of the doubt.



Yeah I know it looks dumb lol. The below quoted post kind of sums it up best I think.



LostTheTone said:


> To be completely fair to the OP; finding a new singer is only half the problem. They have a singer who, despite being a moody cow, impressed them at some point previously. Their complaints aren't that she can't sing, and while I don't think it's been said directly I suspect that she really can go, otherwise they wouldn't tolerate it.
> 
> If you have a good (maybe even great) singer and it's all just attitude then you do end up giving them the benefit of the doubt. Because you know they can tear the place up, and you'll always hope that you can get that back. When you're looking at a new singer who is of unknown range and ability, and who has unknown other commitments or character flaws, it's a big leap.



That's pretty much it. We could fire her and then get someone in who eventually has similar problems or even worse problems. It's the fear of the unknown. We've played over 600+ shows with the current singer and yes their work ethic has declined drastically and their overall attitude is piss poor but there were times where we were a well oiled machine and the gigs were great. And I know it looks like we are taking our sweet time to do the inevitable but we are trying to have the best exit plan and make sure we don't imploded because we acted to fast.


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## budda (Sep 28, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Yeah I know it looks dumb lol. The below quoted post kind of sums it up best I think.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much it. We could fire her and then get someone in who eventually has similar problems or even worse problems. It's the fear of the unknown. We've played over 600+ shows with the current singer and yes their work ethic has declined drastically and their overall attitude is piss poor but there were times where we were a well oiled machine and the gigs were great. And I know it looks like we are taking our sweet time to do the inevitable but we are trying to have the best exit plan and make sure we don't imploded because we acted to fast.



You can fire that person as soon as they act up too.

I went through a few temps at my job. Now all my temps are at least pretty good.

Write down what she did wrong. Fire the people with the same behaviour. You guys get paid, so it's a job - you get let go if you cant meet expectations/the job description.


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## LostTheTone (Sep 28, 2021)

budda said:


> You can fire that person as soon as they act up too.
> 
> I went through a few temps at my job. Now all my temps are at least pretty good.
> 
> Write down what she did wrong. Fire the people with the same behaviour. You guys get paid, so it's a job - you get let go if you cant meet expectations/the job description.



You CAN fire the new guy if they are crappy. But you don't want a reputation for being the band that has dicked a bunch of singers around.

It takes time to get a band to gel, and the last thing you want is to be going to a paying gig with a singer that you haven't had much chance to play with. Even if they are good and are trying hard, dropping a set list on someone three days before a show is a recipe for problems.


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## budda (Sep 28, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> You CAN fire the new guy if they are crappy. But you don't want a reputation for being the band that has dicked a bunch of singers around.
> 
> It takes time to get a band to gel, and the last thing you want is to be going to a paying gig with a singer that you haven't had much chance to play with. Even if they are good and are trying hard, dropping a set list on someone three days before a show is a recipe for problems.



You arent dicking singers around. You're filtering crap for the right professional person to join your group. The hope is that it doesnt take long lol. This isnt an originals band playing for $50 in a DIY space.

Many pros have learned a set the day before a gig. It's a recipe for disaster if the person who said they can do it was lying  (and thats not professional so tell all your friends).


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## LostTheTone (Sep 28, 2021)

budda said:


> You arent dicking singers around. You're filtering crap for the right professional person to join your group. The hope is that it doesnt take long lol. This isnt an originals band playing for $50 in a DIY space.
> 
> Many pros have learned a set the day before a gig. It's a recipe for disaster if the person who said they can do it was lying  (and thats not professional so tell all your friends).



You definitely are dicking everyone around if you hire someone, play one show, then fire them. 

Many people have managed to learn a set the day before... So what though? No singer would WANT to learn a set under that kind of pressure, with zero rehearsal time. 

Personally, I would be unhappy going to a _rehearsal_ if I only knew what we were playing the day before. I feel like a dickhead going to practise and having to read lyrics off my phone, even when it's stuff I wrote a few hours earlier and couldn't possibly have learned yet. 

It's fine getting someone to fill in for a while. That's ok. Plenty of people have another gig and will be willing to jump in for a month or two for some extra cash but who don't want it long term. That's fine.

But if you hire someone, on the understanding they are the new long term singer, and then fire them ten minutes later, that's the kind of band other singers don't want to be in.


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## budda (Sep 28, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> You definitely are dicking everyone around if you hire someone, play one show, then fire them.
> 
> Many people have managed to learn a set the day before... So what though? No singer would WANT to learn a set under that kind of pressure, with zero rehearsal time.
> 
> ...



You wouldnt have enough to go on after one rehearsal, unless they were a no-show.

It isnt dicking around if someone doesnt meet the expectations set out at the start. That's how jobs work


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## LostTheTone (Sep 28, 2021)

budda said:


> You wouldnt have enough to go on after one rehearsal, unless they were a no-show.
> 
> It isnt dicking around if someone doesnt meet the expectations set out at the start. That's how jobs work



Sure, but inviting someone to try out isn't the same as hiring them. When an audition/trial doesn't work out, you don't fire them, you say "Sorry dude, no bueno" and move on. 

And it's totally ok to try out lots of people. But when you hire someone to a paying gig, both of you are supposed to be making a commitment at that point. You never know if they really have the marbles until you actually get out and play. But that's true for most jobs too. You don't see if someone has a crippling drug problem and/or fear of wedding parties until there's really something on the line.

Trying people out is fine. But hiring, firing and hiring again is what gives you a bad name.


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## odibrom (Sep 28, 2021)

... I've been following this thread for a while and whenever I come here I think "are we there yet?"...

... and with the idea that I'll be _raining over the pond_... (as not actually adding anything new to the thread and repeating what everyone else already said)...

... a little back story, by 2015, PSIORB started its working days with me and the bass player (we're a trio). We had an interesting experience with a 1st drummer that tried to take us into adventuring into one of his other projects, which didn't turn out well so we moved on and found another drummer. This second drummer was quite proficient and expressive, we kind of liked him, but he missed rehearsals without warning, or warning a couple of hours before the scheduled rehearsal time. We didn't have our own place and had to go for rental studios (by the hour) so we had to schedule with a week or so in advance. A few times we caught him lying about his excuses, saying he was at work and then finding photos of him in facebook at a dinner with friends (?) at band practice time... nevertheless, his playing with us didn't last a year, he took the initiative of moving out, but if he didn't, we were determined to kicking him out. So we started searching again for a new drummer. We recorded a guitar+bass song and sent it to whom ever wanted to try us out so they could experiment over the song. Several mails were sent, but we received only one reply. Nevertheless he's our actual drummer since 2016. At the beginning we tried him out after he sent his view on the song and told him we were expecting more replies and would contact him later. No more replies came so we kept him. First thing to do was to lay down *expectations*, *objectives*, *working methodology*, *personal responsibilities and band duties* as well as each one of our *personal problems *and *situations in life* regarding *jobs*, *academics* or *personal relationships*. It all counts when committing to a band. One doesn't have to tell one's life story as a Curriculum Vitae, but major points of possible friction with the band's objectives are super important, like "I have a car, but it's unreliable" or "I'm in the brink of a long term relation break up" or "I'm unemployed and looking for jobs elsewhere"... or "I'm a par-time murder for the mafia"... The point is, lay your cards down on the table as clear as possible for everyone to see so everyone can make an informed decision. If the vocalist has to buy stuff, he/she will have to buy stuff in order for the band to work, otherwise, he/she is out, this is unquestionable. You can obviously supply help in order for the interested parties to get the most functional gear for the band's needs. Getting back at PSIORB's little story, since we rehearse very few times per month (once a week when we can), I've suggested that we all get audio interfaces in order to record our ideas and study them at home. They all said "yes" to the idea and I've helped them to make informed decisions on what gear to buy, but ultimately it was their decisions obviously. Then, we made plans on how to make things work at a distance, so we decided to all work with the same DAW and use a cloud service to store our working projects. This way, everyone could get access to the latest version of whatever song we were/are working on.

So, record some songs played by you and ask for wannabe singers to record something of their own over it. This implies that the singers will have to know a bit about recordings and as such, is minimally versed in the field as to what gear does what and so on and isn't just a pretty face with a nice voice (which is important but not that important). It will also allow you to do casting without even wasting rehearsal time with potentially wrong subjects, you'll rehearse those you'll find are good enough and choose from there.

... and I wouldn't care about what other bands in your circle think about how you manage your band, it's YOUR band, not theirs, so if you have to go through several vocalists, go through them until you find the one that suits YOUR needs, not the other bands' needs. You are doing this for YOU, not for your "competition". YOU are the show when YOU are on the stage, THAT'S what counts. If that means having a different singer per gig, then it means that until you find one that coops with your operation...

... so, are we there yet? 

PS - life is too short for these kind of headaches...


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## metallicity (Sep 28, 2021)

I'll throw this idea out there too.

This is a paying gig.

You play a fair number of weddings.

You are being paid to make their day special.

So why not a simple contact that states the basic requirements of being in the band?

- Being on time for rehearsals and gigs.
- All band members use IEM's so making sure you know how to set up your gear, that it's working properly (maybe the band even owns a backup set for any member to use if theirs breaks down during a gig).
- Conducting yourself in a professional manner while at the gigs. (whatever the band defines that to be)

(basically list the same points you made earlier in this thread that describe where the singer was falling short)

But, this isn't just for a new/old singer it would apply to the whole band.

Just a few very simple basic ground rules (keep it short and simple) laid down as a written contract, one printed out for each band member and each signs their copy. That way every band member can feel secure that they are all literally on the same page regarding a few very simple things.

Then, if anyone starts falling short of their agreed to contract you'll all have a band meeting, give that person a few chances to get back on track and if it isn't fixed they are out.

The band will make it known in the local circles that they have a simple contract for each band member and if someone was fired then it will be clear to the entire local scene that the person let go wasn't living up to their very simple contract. If you go through a bunch of singers (I doubt you will) then the whole area will know the local singers are a bunch of unreliable flakes and that can't live up to a very simple contract they themselves agreed to. You will also become known as a professional reliable band that can be depended on to show up on time and put on a good show.


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## Riffer (Sep 28, 2021)

@odibrom thanks for the comment. I get what you're saying. I actually get what everyone is saying in this thread. I didn't even think I'd get 1 page of replies, let alone to page 8!!! I think what it really comes down to is that yes, this is a job. If you aren't doing your job or pulling your weight, you get let go. And you're right about we are doing this job for us, not the competition so the argument of how it would look to some outsiders is irrelevant. 

@ijohnh67 I do like the idea of the contract between the band members as to what is expected. We may do that from here on out.


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## fantom (Sep 28, 2021)

Riffer said:


> Yeah I know it looks dumb lol. The below quoted post kind of sums it up best I think.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much it. We could fire her and then get someone in who eventually has similar problems or even worse problems. It's the fear of the unknown. We've played over 600+ shows with the current singer and yes their work ethic has declined drastically and their overall attitude is piss poor but there were times where we were a well oiled machine and the gigs were great. And I know it looks like we are taking our sweet time to do the inevitable but we are trying to have the best exit plan and make sure we don't imploded because we acted to fast.



As many others said, if you hire a bad apple, fire them too. The main thing that matters is the band (sans singer) agree on the evaluation process and has the resolve to power through it. If you need to try 6 singers before everyone agrees someone will work out, just see if everyone is committed to working it out so you don't create a rift and split up.



LostTheTone said:


> You definitely are dicking everyone around if you hire someone, play one show, then fire them



You are telling me that a brand new singer, hired by an agency, has expectations that they are a full-time member forever? This isn't how any profession works. No one hires an unknown without evaluating options. Auditions or test shows are totally normal. You are effectively saying that a job should hire someone without interviewing them or seeing if they have the skills and personality to work with your team.

If you pay the singer for the show and you are transparent, nothing is wrong. "We are auditioning a few singers. Right now, this is a session gig. We will pay you x dollars for your time. If everything goes well, there is a high chance we will ask you to commit to more performances on a regular basis."

How is that dicking someone over? It sounds like giving someone an opportunity. I mean the singer can just as easily quit because they don't like it or don't want to gig or rehearse regularly. It is a risk for both sides.


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## LostTheTone (Sep 28, 2021)

fantom said:


> You are telling me that a brand new singer, hired by an agency, has expectations that they are a full-time member forever? This isn't how any profession works. No one hires an unknown without evaluating options. Auditions or test shows are totally normal. You are effectively saying that a job should hire someone without interviewing them or seeing of they have the skills and personality to work with your team.
> 
> If you pay the singer for the show and you are transparent, nothing is wrong. What is wrong with, "We are auditioning a few singers. Right now, this is a session gig. We will pay you x dollars for your time. If everything goes well, there is a high chance we will ask you to perform." How is that dicking someone over? It sounds like giving someone an opportunity.



Ugh, dude, we are arguing over what "hiring" means, and it's pointless.

Yes, I get it, you are talking about "hiring" a fill in guy via an agency. I am talking about THE BAND "hiring" a full time person.

These are different things.

And if the band "hires" a new singer, then that IS a longer term arrangement, and "firing" them is dickish after two minutes.

With a temp, you don't "fire" them; you just don't book them for the next gig.


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## budda (Sep 28, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Ugh, dude, we are arguing over what "hiring" means, and it's pointless.
> 
> Yes, I get it, you are talking about "hiring" a fill in guy via an agency. I am talking about THE BAND "hiring" a full time person.
> 
> ...



No, we fire them. They get told they arent needed anymore and thanks for their time.

Why would you keep someone you just hired if they cant meet expectations? Make it make sense.


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## LostTheTone (Sep 28, 2021)

budda said:


> No, we fire them. They get told they arent needed anymore and thanks for their time.
> 
> Why would you keep someone you just hired if they cant meet expectations? Make it make sense.



What the shit dude!?

What did I JUST fucking say about different meanings of "hire" ? 

You hire a fucking cab driver to take you home, but when you get out the cab and hand over a 20 you don't say "You're fired!". You hire him for one ride, when the ride is over, it's done and he doesn't show up in the morning to drive you to fucking work, does he? 

If you hire someone for one gig, you don't have to fire them. You either ask them to come along next time, or you don't. But once the gig is over, there is no more agreement between you.

The only reason to fire someone is if they were asked to be a permanent member of the band; someone who both of you agreed will continue working with you on an indeterminate basis.


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## bostjan (Sep 28, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> You hire a fucking cab driver to take you home, but when you get out the cab and hand over a 20 you don't say "You're fired!"


Speak for yourself! 

Some people have anger issues and they just need to yell "you're fired!" at other people constantly. It makes this sort of people feel like they are powerful and important.


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## fantom (Sep 28, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> What the shit dude!?
> 
> What did I JUST fucking say about different meanings of "hire" ?
> 
> ...



Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed? You are really being pedantic here.

And there is no issue with hiring someone for a single gig and telling them afterwards that you are no longer interested. Call it firing or call it "no longer needing your services". Saying nothing at all is called ghosting.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 15, 2021)

Necro bump!

Ya'll ever get sort of strange behavior from bandmates?

Say you're in a band thingie, and writing a song. Person A and C get a bunch of parts written and recorded (Persons A and C write, arrange, and produce all the music and arrangements). Everything works well musically so far. Person B records a bunch of parts. Person B's parts don't really work with the rest of the arrangements. Kind of off balance rhythmically, kind of sloppy, the performances/takes vary in timbre too much to make a modern polished product, and there's a lack of tension or melodic information in the part. It's suggested that the parts be reworked together as a group to both flow more naturally with the other parts, and to be more catchy and melodically interesting (80% of the parts hitting one note on the upbeat isn't very engaging, the rest are off-key). They reluctantly agree. Persons A and C continue writing and repeat some parts for second wave and add a new section. Person B likes the new additions. More discussion of the reworking of Person B's previous parts. A while later Person B very firmly states that the new arrangements and additions do not work with the song, is vague about what it is they do not like about the updates, and states in a matter of fact manner than what they do not like needs to be removed.

Might be worth noting that typically Person A and C just edit the shit out of Person B's parts and use "studio magic" to make the parts not ruin the flow of the music. They do this without telling Person B most of the time.

What about bandmates who talk lots of trash about other bands in the area? How do you guys go about handling that? It's strikes me as odd to talk shite about band X and band Y's music and ability when that person's ability is clearly well below that capability.

We want this to be a fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches and folks who are willing to put the work in to make their additions the best they can possibly be rather than rely on others to fix everything up.


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## Lozek (Dec 15, 2021)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> Necro bump!
> 
> Ya'll ever get sort of strange behavior from bandmates?
> 
> ...



Person A & C need to make everyone's lives easier and get rid of Person B, they are dead weight and a liability. Don't put it off with 'maybe they will change' - they won't, or 'they are useful for X' - Someone else who is not dragging them back will also be able do that thing and possibly even bring something that they don't have to the table.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2021)

There's bound to be a way to switch things up without being antagonistic towards person B. It's entirely fine to change things around if there's too much creative or workflow difference for everyone to be happy - but if you barge into the situation with things like "you're dead weight", then it becomes confrontational for no reason.

If this is a project where you want to have complete creative control in terms of what material ends up in the final project, then you need to define that from the outset, and let B decide for themselves if they're ok with that - this way it's on them to either agree and hand over creative control, or to disagree and respectfully back out of the project. Alternatively, if you're going to relinquish some creative control to the group, you have to live with the fact that you're not going to like 100% of what others contribute. It just is what it is. Be honest with yourselves and your bandmates.


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## odibrom (Dec 15, 2021)

TedEH said:


> (...)Be honest with yourselves and your bandmates.



This is the way...


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## wheresthefbomb (Dec 15, 2021)

I'll answer the one nobody else did, it's _never_ cool to trash other local bands and _always_ a bad look. In this house we _support_ the scene that gives us life. This person sounds like they're probably not very secure with themselves, I totally empathize and I hope they figure that out because they've probably got a lot to offer the world.

It's also totally not your problem.



Cyanide_Anima said:


> We want this to be a fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches and folks who are willing to put the work in to make their additions the best they can possibly be rather than rely on others to fix everything up.



Person B has shown you with their actions that they are not this person. Covering their mistakes and waiting for them to change is enabling them, and this whole situation is very obviously brewing resentment among all parties, which will absolutely turn into a bullshit volcano if you don't do something about it sooner than later.

Last time I let a band member go, I told them that it was evident that we had different artistic goals, and that it was my firm belief we'd both be better off pursuing those separately.* I just try to make it about me as much as possible (while still being honest), there's nothing to say at this point that hasn't already been said in a more constructive environment. They'll either figure it out or they won't. Empathy is rad but you can't help someone who isn't helping themselves. Sometimes the best you can do for someone is cut them loose.


*He'd told me previously the last band before that to kick him out, he'd slashed all their tires, so I count the fact that zero tires were slashed as a testament to the efficacy of my diplomatic efforts. It was still the end of that friendship, though.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2021)

Whooda thunk the kind of person who slashes tires after being told their songs suck wouldn't be a great fit for a professional collaborative music project?  +1 to not trashing the locals though.


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## Xaios (Dec 15, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> *He'd told me previously the last band before that to kick him out, he'd slashed all their tires


Can't spell "stable personality" without "stab".


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## wheresthefbomb (Dec 15, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Whooda thunk the kind of person who slashes tires after being told their songs suck wouldn't be a great fit for a professional collaborative music project?  +1 to not trashing the locals though.





Xaios said:


> Can't spell "stable personality" without "stab".


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2021)

What I'm taking away from this is that when someone writes "stable", I'm going to pronounce it in my head as "stabble". Stab-le? Like Stab. You get the picture.


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## budda (Dec 15, 2021)

Dont trash other bands? Eh if band A shit talks band B because band B always asks to borrow gear and takes too long to set up and/or tear down, im with band A.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 15, 2021)

I'd agree, but I think wheresthefbomb was morely talking about talent, don't shit talk someone's ability if youre terrible yourself.


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## Rev2010 (Dec 15, 2021)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> What about bandmates who talk lots of trash about other bands in the area? How do you guys go about handling that?



I never understood this kind of crap. Music is music, if you don't like something then so what - someone else will like it. Certain styles of music I don't like and don't get, same with some bands, but I don't waste my time going on about it or trashing it. It's not a competition and I don't see what there's to gain making enemies in the music scene. I'd tell the band member to keep all that shit to themself or go their own way as their actions can only hurt the entire band.

As for the rest of your questions - I agree with what @TedEH said.


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## wheresthefbomb (Dec 15, 2021)

budda said:


> Dont trash other bands? Eh if band A shit talks band B because band B always asks to borrow gear and takes too long to set up and/or tear down, im with band A.



Totally agree, the distinction to me is basically "that band sucks" vs "that band's members' actions suck." I'm for holding people accountable for their actions all day long.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2021)

Without any context, I take the phrasing of "trashing other bands" to imply it's unwarranted. Some friendly trash talk between bands that know eachother - fine, whatever. If someone is actively a dick when you interact with them, well, then you're just calling it like it is. Punching down to other bands because you don't like the genre or don't think of them as talented or something is just a bad look if you want to be taken as a professional, or if you want to be equally supported by that same community.

I once was playing a show where the opening band was pretty amateur-ish. And I don't say that because "they suck", but they were visibly new to the whole process of playing shows, even if they were decent musicians. Before the show starts, I'm standing near the stage side, notice the guitarist steps on his cable and it pulls from his guitar - so I go to him and suggest, hey, if you wrap the cable around the strap, like so, when you step on it, it'll just tug a little but it won't unplug you. He told me to go fvck myself, he knows what he's doing.

Nah, they suck. At that point you've earned the trash talk.


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## budda (Dec 15, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> I'd agree, but I think wheresthefbomb was morely talking about talent, don't shit talk someone's ability if youre terrible yourself.



Have you met humans?


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## CanserDYI (Dec 15, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Without any context, I take the phrasing of "trashing other bands" to imply it's unwarranted. Some friendly trash talk between bands that know eachother - fine, whatever. If someone is actively a dick when you interact with them, well, then you're just calling it like it is. Punching down to other bands because you don't like the genre or don't think of them as talented or something is just a bad look if you want to be taken as a professional, or if you want to be equally supported by that same community.
> 
> I once was playing a show where the opening band was pretty amateur-ish. And I don't say that because "they suck", but they were visibly new to the whole process of playing shows, even if they were decent musicians. Before the show starts, I'm standing near the stage side, notice the guitarist steps on his cable and it pulls from his guitar - so I go to him and suggest, hey, if you wrap the cable around the strap, like so, when you step on it, it'll just tug a little but it won't unplug you. He told me to go fvck myself, he knows what he's doing.
> 
> Nah, they suck. At that point you've earned the trash talk.


Reminds me of a local punk band we had back in the day around here, they thought they were sooooo PUNK ROCK that telling them "hey man that sounded great", apparently wasnt a very punk thing to do, so they told me "fuck off ya cunt."

I was taken aback, then found out same dude liked to pull his little pecker in public parties, makes perfect sense now.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 15, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I'll answer the one nobody else did, it's _never_ cool to trash other local bands and _always_ a bad look. In this house we _support_ the scene that gives us life. This person sounds like they're probably not very secure with themselves, I totally empathize and I hope they figure that out because they've probably got a lot to offer the world.
> 
> It's also totally not your problem.
> 
> ...



So, the trash talk thing is strange here. In one instance Person B talks about how terrible X band is, how they sound like shit, they're posers, the genre they are in is garbage, etc. When I take as objective of a look as I can about the band he is talking about and I see that they are breaking new ground. They are extremely, EXTREMELY well produced. They are nailing the sound they are going after. Everything is just right. I have nothing but respect for them. Person B has actually made attempts in other projects to do a similar sound as Band X, but it was not good and was in fact very amateurish. Which is very ironic. This happens semi-regularly about other local bands as well. 

Person A has also done production for person B's other bands in the past. Which basically was talking a terribly arranged song and redoing all the instrumentation, writing new parts, synths, drums, guitars, bass, etc., and making it all into something cohesive so they could release it as their band's music. Which was OK since they are getting their production chops out there, and it has drawn in some work for them. 

It's easier to put up with divas and people with huge egos when they have the work ethic, talent, and skill to back it up. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth if they fall short of that high bar they've set for everyone else.

It's been made clear from the outset that Persons C and A are the music makers, deciding the direction of the music, doing the production, etc. But Person B's feelings get hurt whenever something about their part isn't received as being perfect, and they won't retrack the parts the vast majority of the time.

Might be time for another discussion drawing some additional lines.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 15, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> I'd agree, but I think wheresthefbomb was morely talking about talent, don't shit talk someone's ability if youre terrible yourself.



Honestly you have to play it by ear - I think it's natural for bands in the same place, even playing on the same bill, to have a bit of a friendly (or not so friendly) banter. Especially if they are in not-really-the-same genres. If you're a death metal band playing with a black metal band, yeah there'll be some joshing even if both of you are great.

And that's to be expected, and it's ok, and it's mostly a bit of fun. When someone you vaguely know says your latest song is a pile of wank, and you wish him a hearty "go fuck yourself" then that's just part of being in a band.

But for all that... If your band is shit (and we all start out shit) then don't be up yourself. No-one minds that you're shit. We all have rough nights. But don't be shit talking the headliners who have better songs, and played better, and who have fans showing up. It's just not a good look.

In the end, it's alright to just be a lad and knock around with the other lads. But it's not alright to send unwarranted criticism when you can't do any better.


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## Necris (Dec 15, 2021)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> Necro bump!
> 
> Ya'll ever get sort of strange behavior from bandmates?
> (Details)
> ...



RE: B's "strange behavior".
I've been in a band with a guy like this in the past. He's probably at least somewhat hung up on having something he can point to as his own personal contribution when he hears the band's recordings, I doubt he'd ever admit it directly but I'd guess that's why he's suddenly rejecting the new parts you guys wrote with him, it wasn't *just* him, it wasn't just his good ideas making the song better. That's usually an ego thing, in which case it's really up to his own personality as to whether or not he can get past it. It could also be that while he was involved in the rewriting process he didn't feel that he really had much control over the creative decisions, the possibilities are broad and none of us here can really know anything beyond what we're told. That's a band discussion that needs to happen, ultimately.

With regard to the rest:
The way things are going right now isn't "professional" in the slightest, your band dynamic is bordering on toxic teenage relationship nonsense in band form; you're adults so, if you really want to have a band, communicate like adults.

Obviously this is a band that could function just fine with just the two members A and C, and probably should. However, going forward those two have their own issues with regards to the band's long term goals. They are, to an extent, enabling B's failures by replacing his takes behind his back (a great way to create conflict if he were ever to find out). In doing so they've also chosen the path of least resistance and the least value; quietly replacing B's takes in secret and foregoing any opportunity to provide what could be valuable feedback, in favor of having their tracks how they want them, when they want them and avoiding any immediate conflict.

Actions like this make it seem as though neither A nor C really want to take any sort of leadership role in the band and that they're committed to _not_ directly addressing problems as they arise. Instead they favor simply letting things slide, wallpapering over B's shortcomings in the studio and hoping the guy figures it out on his own, or leaves of his own accord to allow them to have their project as they envision it. In this scenario A and C are at least partial contributors to failure and conflict, but they're unable or unwilling to recognize their own culpability, assuming instead that everything would be fine if it weren't for B's "strange behavior". Whether the assessment that B is the core problem is accurate or not doesn't change the fact that someone (or, ideally, everyone involved) needs to take a more active role in interpersonal problem solving and communication.

If A and C want the dynamic that can create a "fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches" they need to begin to take a more active approach to band communication, or give up and just stick to being a 2 man studio-only project. The current state of things is band poison and it would only become more difficult to manage with more members.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 15, 2021)

Necris said:


> RE: B's "strange behavior".
> I've been in a band with a guy like this in the past. He's probably at least somewhat hung up on having something he can point to as his own personal contribution when he hears the band's recordings, I doubt he'd ever admit it directly but I'd guess that's why he's suddenly rejecting the new parts you guys wrote with him, it wasn't *just* him, it wasn't just his good ideas making the song better. It could be an ego thing, in which case it's really up to his own personality as to whether or not he can get past it. It could also be that while he was involved in the rewriting process he didn't feel that he really had much control over the creative decisions, the possibilities are broad and none of us here can really know anything beyond what we're told. That's a band discussion that needs to happen, ultimately.
> 
> With regard to the rest:
> ...



As far as replacing parts without knowledge go that doesn't actually happen. They are edited into time, tuned into key, and notes moved around. This person is told that they are out of time, out of key, etc., (in a graceful and nice manner) but they tend to simply reject that appraisal and insist they are in time and that A and C are wrong. If B simply refuses to redo their parts A and C will imply fix or remove them so things don't stick out in an unpleasant way. B acknowledges the editing and doesn't protest the edits and approves the final product.

The edits themselves aren't really that much of a problem. Every vocalist gets edited. But having to edit nearly every syllable for time and pitch for a great number of tracks is extremely laborious. I've recently done a song with another vocalist in a completely different genre apart from this band. They were amazing takes and required zero editing for that modern, polished and layered pop vocal sound. It was more of a straight forward mixing and production situation and not a salvage operation. When asked to do a simple addition texture set of takes for effect on a section they did it without giving 7 reasons why they aren't going to record more vocals for this song.

The main issue other than trash talking all of our peers, is that person B is lazy with their efforts, seems to not be connected to reality, and relies on A and C to correct all the mistakes or even leave out parts that are objectively souring to the music. There are basically zero other possible options for replacement for this person as well. It's a very niche sub-genre, in an area not known for this sub-genre, and we all live in areas far enough from the notable music scene in the state for this to be an issue.

A and C work together well. Can constructively critique each other's work and can build upon each others work effectively and without childish reactions or insults. This just doesn't seem to be the case with B.

*Does anyone know of an effective way to motivate people to put more effort into a project? A way that is non-threatening and caters to egotistical vocalists?* Because there is good music in this person, they just don't put in the work to get it out.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2021)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> *Does anyone know of an effective way to motivate people to put more effort into a project?


IMO - In short, don't. You have to pick between accepting the persons contributions and working with what you've got, or cutting them loose and moving on - anything else, any half-measure, will end up being unfair to someone, a compromise on someone's part, a way to breed drama and resentment, etc.

As another angle, do you want a person whose musical talent you already seem to find questionable _contributing more_ to your project?


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## Necris (Dec 15, 2021)

Then I misread/misinterpreted that bit, my mistake.
Have you discussed what he actually wants out of the band, at all? Is this just something to do on the weekends for him or does he really want to be in a band long term? Is this experience actually valuable to him?

If it's an intrinsic motivation issue there isn't much that can be done on your end. Right now, it sounds like he doesn't seem to "want it" as badly as you both do, and the band as a whole is suffering for it. If he's a person who genuinely has the potential to be a good musician, *but* he's also a diva who thinks he's already a great one, then I don't know that you're going to successfully bring him back down to earth. Even if he objectively needs the practice, it's unlikely that he'll make lasting changes if he doesn't personally recognize their necessity so playing to his ego would only go so far, he might practice, but only temporarily as a "favor" to you; and he probably won't become any easier to work with as a person. You can try to convince him he needs to improve, but there's the risk he might just quit to protect his own ego rather than admit his shortcomings.

Ultimately, his personality will largely dictate whether you're facing a catch-22 or something potentially workable. Based on what you've described I think eventually parting ways with your current vocalist and seeking out some sort of workable replacement long-term is your best bet. I'm sure you've already thought of it, but if you do choose to move on and you're still in contact with that other vocalist consider asking them whether they know anyone who would have an interest in your band's music or to help get the word that you're looking for a singer.


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## NoodleFace (Dec 15, 2021)

TedEH said:


> IMO - In short, don't. You have to pick between accepting the persons contributions and working with what you've got, or cutting them loose and moving on - anything else, any half-measure, will end up being unfair to someone, a compromise on someone's part, a way to breed drama and resentment, etc.
> 
> As another angle, do you want a person whose musical talent you already seem to find questionable _contributing more_ to your project?


Dealing with this myself now. The band started out as a fun thing we weren't going to take seriously, but the other guys often show up forgetting everything we wrote the week before. Even their own parts. My patience is running really thin with it. 

There are way more complaints too, but im not god's gift to guitar playing myself so I'll leave it at that.


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## STRHelvete (Dec 15, 2021)

*laughs in one man band*


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## LostTheTone (Dec 16, 2021)

TedEH said:


> IMO - In short, don't. You have to pick between accepting the persons contributions and working with what you've got, or cutting them loose and moving on - anything else, any half-measure, will end up being unfair to someone, a compromise on someone's part, a way to breed drama and resentment, etc.
> 
> As another angle, do you want a person whose musical talent you already seem to find questionable _contributing more_ to your project?



I think that's a good way to frame it. 

It sounds like the goal isn't to make this guy take the project seriously, its to make his contributions _better_. Maybe he is just tossing it off in two seconds and that's the problem. But he might just be a bit shit.


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## ScottThunes1960 (Dec 16, 2021)

Don’t know if it’s been posted yet, but Zappa’s reasoning for firing the entire ‘88 band was that “there’s no amount of money you can pay someone to do a job if they have an attitude that gets in the way of doing it.” It’s an excellent summary of Flake Musician 101, and grounding for how a bandleader deals with grumblings of mutiny.


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## budda (Dec 16, 2021)

Decide how much bullshit you will put up with in the name of making music and go.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 16, 2021)

ScottThunes1960 said:


> Don’t know if it’s been posted yet, but Zappa’s reasoning for firing the entire ‘88 band was that “there’s no amount of money you can pay someone to do a job if they have an attitude that gets in the way of doing it.” It’s an excellent summary of Flake Musician 101, and grounding for how a bandleader deals with grumblings of mutiny.



Yeah, and I generally would endorse Franks view. 

Of course, it's not perfectly analogous to this situation, since you're not paying the guy. But the rationale is the same, IMHO. I think you should still have a chat with him and establish if he really thinks his contributions are great or he is just not taking time or has other stuff on or whatever. There is some potential that you all just aren't seeing eye to eye about whatever, and straightening that out might well help. People often stick to a rut and resent it instead of deciding a new approach. But in the end, if you can't all get on the same page and can't find a reasonable way to work together either, then someone has to go.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 16, 2021)

STRHelvete said:


> *laughs in one man band*



Hahahah I’m doing the same thing. 

That said, I joined a cover band last month because it’s been 15 years since I’ve played guitar in a band and I really missed playing live. The first month everything was going great, everyone was really cool, no egos or attitudes at all, just a bunch of bubbly, happy people. Then the bass player started sending these huge walls of texts between 1AM-7AM about having investors fly in to invest in the band…..we’ve barely had two practices and have about 10 songs that need a considerable amount of tightening up. I’m going to see where this goes for the rest of the month, more out of curiosity/entertainment than anything. From what I gather, the band is supposed to receive a $100,000 investment.


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## Rev2010 (Dec 16, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> Then the bass player started sending these huge walls of *texts between 1AM-7AM about having investors* fly in to invest in the band



Cocaine perhaps?


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## LostTheTone (Dec 16, 2021)

Rev2010 said:


> Cocaine perhaps?



I normally wouldn't but if you're offering...


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## wheresthefbomb (Dec 16, 2021)

NoodleFace said:


> Dealing with this myself now. The band started out as a fun thing we weren't going to take seriously, but the other guys often show up forgetting everything we wrote the week before. Even their own parts. My patience is running really thin with it.
> 
> There are way more complaints too, but im not god's gift to guitar playing myself so I'll leave it at that.



I've been in this exact situation. Started off for funsies, but there was still a disparity in what that meant. I wanted to write songs, the other guitarist wanted to play kerry king solos, and the drummer wanted to smoke weed and hit stuff in the same room as his friends. 

After meeting individually with the guitarist twice to write parts, only to have him show up at practice a few days later having totally forgotten our sweet dual guitar melody lines and playing more kerry king solos over everything, I called it. 

The drummer had the self-awareness to tell me that he didn't have the motivation to write songs, that he just wanted to hang out and hit stuff. He didn't want to waste my time, I respect that to this day even though our friendship fell off for other reasons.

Nowadays, I open with and return often to, "what do you want out of this/what are your goals/what is your desired level of involvement?" I'm too old and too busy to work with anyone who isn't going to at least meet, if not push me past, my level.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 16, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> the drummer wanted to smoke weed and hit stuff in the same room as his friends.



Sounds pretty highly motivated by drummer standards.


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## NoodleFace (Dec 16, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I've been in this exact situation. Started off for funsies, but there was still a disparity in what that meant. I wanted to write songs, the other guitarist wanted to play kerry king solos, and the drummer wanted to smoke weed and hit stuff in the same room as his friends.
> 
> After meeting individually with the guitarist twice to write parts, only to have him show up at practice a few days later having totally forgotten our sweet dual guitar melody lines and playing more kerry king solos over everything, I called it.
> 
> ...


The problem of course is the drummer I've known for 20 years (and is REALLY bad, but I had hoped he was better since he joined a band and everythihng.. not the case).. and the other guys I'm now pretty good friends with.

Ah well..


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 16, 2021)

Rev2010 said:


> Cocaine perhaps?



Well, I’m in South Florida and you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a dealer, so I very much wouldn’t be surprised. Add to that he told me last week he had a major issue with opiates in the past and actually lost his ex-fiancé to an OD last year. So maybe he’s speedballin’ it up or he’s one of the types that gets more active when he’s fucked up on opiates. Regardless, the “I’m on drugs” vibe is coming off him pretty fuckin’ hard. 

Thankfully, I don’t have much time invested in this outside of learning the setlist, which was only a benefit to me. I’ll give it til the new year and see which direction things go in, but man, it certainly makes me glad I built a home studio and don’t have to rely on people to make music with. I just wanted to do this to have a good time crankin’ up a bit, nothing more than that.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 17, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> Well, I’m in South Florida and you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a dealer



HAHA I see what you did there, kudos!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 17, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> HAHA I see what you did there, kudos!



Hahaha I wasn’t trying to slip anything funny in there, coke is still HUGE down here, I’m assuming like it was everywhere else in the 70’s and 80’s. It’s just a party favor down here and not really seen as a faux pas or hard drug like it is in New England where I’m from. 

Like it’s never surprising or even mildly interesting to walk into the bathroom at a bar and see two sets of legs in a stall and hearing nothing but snorting coming out of it, it’s just how it is down here.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 17, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> Hahaha I wasn’t trying to slip anything funny in there, coke is still HUGE down here, I’m assuming like it was everywhere else in the 70’s and 80’s. It’s just a party favor down here and not really seen as a faux pas or hard drug like it is in New England where I’m from.
> 
> Like it’s never surprising or even mildly interesting to walk into the bathroom at a bar and see two sets of legs in a stall and hearing nothing but snorting coming out of it, it’s just how it is down here.



Man I remember the culture shock of seeing people who treat blow like its just no big deal. When I were a lad we thought we were so rebellious smoking the occasional joint in our local metal club (anyone remember when you could fucking smoke in a club?) but that was literally kids stuff. Just moving in circles where everyone knows the universal gesture for "dude, wipe your nose".

The first time I ever did the stuff was in a bar bathroom and I had just walked in when some dude came up from doing a line and said "Oh I'm sorry... Do you want one?". To which I, as a smart human being who deeply cared about his future, said "Fuck yeah buddy". And... I mean, the story worked out vaguely ok, right?


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 17, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Man I remember the culture shock of seeing people who treat blow like its just no big deal. When I were a lad we thought we were so rebellious smoking the occasional joint in our local metal club (anyone remember when you could fucking smoke in a club?) but that was literally kids stuff. Just moving in circles where everyone knows the universal gesture for "dude, wipe your nose".
> 
> The first time I ever did the stuff was in a bar bathroom and I had just walked in when some dude came up from doing a line and said "Oh I'm sorry... Do you want one?". To which I, as a smart human being who deeply cared about his future, said "Fuck yeah buddy". And... I mean, the story worked out vaguely ok, right?



Hahahahahahahahaha

The first time I did it wasn’t that interesting, I barely even felt anything from it, but I moved to South Florida right before I turned 21 and found a job as a server in a restaurant, my last shift training was a day or two after my 21st birthday. I finished my shift by the afternoon and went across the street to a bar that had 2-4-1 Long Islands and slammed a few back, then when I left I saw a bunch of new co-workers across the street sitting outside of a Mexican joint. 

So I stroll over and join the table, ordered a ridiculously sized margarita and I believe shots were ordered by someone. I was just happy to have found some drinkers and was very stoked I could finally legally drink. At one point, one guy said “I can’t work tonight, I’m way too shitfaced. Drew, want to work tonight?”, I immediately say “No way, I’m fucking tanked!”. Everyone at the table talked me into it, how they’d help me out and how much fun it is to serve tables drunk, so I rolled with it. It was NOT fun then, I was way too inexperienced and I was fucking up left and right. 

At one point, someone who I’m still very close to to this day (she’s a sobriety coach now) pulled me aside and said “Take this and go in the bathroom, you’ll be fine after” and handed me a baggie. I had no clue about key bumps or anything at this point, so I pulled a straw out of my apron, stuck it in the bag and up it went. All of it. It was only a half gram, but still. Immediately I went “Ohhhhh shiiiiiit.”, I come out of the bathroom with my face all flushed, freaking out that not only might I have a heart attack (again, no experience) but I just did all my new friends coke in one shot. She gave me some shit for it and said “Have fun with that.” Dude, I was a fucking wreck. I took the same drink order at a table about 6x before the guests finally asked for management. They had me run food all night and eventually the GM put his arm around me and said “Welcome to Hops!” like I had just passed some initiation test or something. I thought for sure I was going to get fired because I was CLEARLY fucking wasted. 

For a good 45 minutes I was just a wreck. And then we all left and did a bunch more blow for about 24 hours straight. Following that night, I think I had a bag in my pocket at all times for a good 3-4 months straight. It was like smoking a cigarette or having a cup of coffee to me. Then one day I just didn’t feel like doing it anymore, so I just did it socially at that point with a the occasional night or two or three we’d all hang out and just go nuts. 

It’s been so prevalent down here that I very much view it as a casual drug, not really any differently than weed, just works in the opposite direction, but that’s the relationship I have with it, I know that’s not the case for others. I have plenty of friends who have been through the ringer with it, I just get sick of it after a night or two of doing it and I’m good for weeks/months without seeing it again.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 19, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> It’s been so prevalent down here that I very much view it as a casual drug, not really any differently than weed, just works in the opposite direction, but that’s the relationship I have with it, I know that’s not the case for others. I have plenty of friends who have been through the ringer with it, I just get sick of it after a night or two of doing it and I’m good for weeks/months without seeing it again.



That's somewhat true, although it obviously has a high potential to become a major problem very quickly, it's also shockingly expensive and (in my experience) not long lasting enough, or good enough fun, to be something that most people would want to do every day. So for most it's a party drug. And I do get what you mean when you say just getting sick of it. I say that as someone with a very addictive personality, who has had problems with other drugs, but not with coke at all. I do have shitty impulse control, so if people offer then I tend to accept (it's only polite!) but I have never actually bought the stuff myself. It's alright, but it's just... Bleh, whatever.


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## chipchappy (Dec 20, 2021)

Came here to read about passive-aggressive interactions in bands and dudes' inability to have tough conversations, instead I found guys comparing notes on cocaine experiences.

Sevenstring, I love you.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 20, 2021)

chipchappy said:


> Came here to read about passive-aggressive interactions in bands and dudes' inability to have tough conversations, instead I found guys comparing notes on cocaine experiences.
> 
> Sevenstring, I love you.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 20, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> That's somewhat true, although it obviously has a high potential to become a major problem very quickly, it's also shockingly expensive and (in my experience) not long lasting enough, or good enough fun, to be something that most people would want to do every day. So for most it's a party drug. And I do get what you mean when you say just getting sick of it. I say that as someone with a very addictive personality, who has had problems with other drugs, but not with coke at all. I do have shitty impulse control, so if people offer then I tend to accept (it's only polite!) but I have never actually bought the stuff myself. It's alright, but it's just... Bleh, whatever.



I won’t get into the discussion of prices and all that, but it’s all about who ya know down here. Hahahaha I also won’t discuss how much I’ve personally paid for over the years because I’ll give myself anxiety.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 20, 2021)

Not going to lie, it's terrible and ruined a good part of my life, but god damn I love cocaine lol

Haven't touched the stuff in a few years but god damn it's the powder of the gods.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 20, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Not going to lie, it's terrible and ruined a good part of my life, but god damn I love cocaine lol
> 
> Haven't touched the stuff in a few years but god damn it's the powder of the gods.



I used to feel the same about opiates, and that's what I feel now about my (prescribed) Ritalin. Drugs are good, man.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 20, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I used to feel the same about opiates, and that's what I feel now about my (prescribed) Ritalin. Drugs are good, man.


Opiates ruined about 5 years of my life and took just as many friends from my life. Glad you're clean now man.

I also can say the same about my wife's Adderall prescription. We just can't get enough of them. 

I had to drop a lot of shit when my kids came, and I'm so glad I did.


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## jaxadam (Dec 20, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Not going to lie, it's terrible and ruined a good part of my life, but god damn I love cocaine lol
> 
> Haven't touched the stuff in a few years but god damn it's the powder of the gods.



Do a bump, take a dump!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 20, 2021)

jaxadam said:


> Do a bump, take a dump!



That’s why ya gotta wait until you’ve had a few drinks first!


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## jaxadam (Dec 20, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> That’s why ya gotta wait until you’ve had a few drinks first!



I knew only very few would get it, but I knew I could count on you!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 20, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Opiates ruined about 5 years of my life and took just as many friends from my life. Glad you're clean now man.
> 
> I also can say the same about my wife's Adderall prescription. We just can't get enough of them.
> 
> I had to drop a lot of shit when my kids came, and I'm so glad I did.



I’ve had opiates take a lot of people in my life out and some of them who didn’t die are now dealing with some serious kidney issues. In my early-mid 20’s I was eating pills like crazy, not even caring or thinking about the damage I was doing to myself long-term. 

I’ve long considered seeing a doc about an adderal prescription but just seeing Amphetamine Salts on the side of the bottle reminds me that I’d most likely end up with a legal meth addiction if I did, so I just run myself ragged instead and chug coffee like a madman. 

While I still dabble with substances on occasion, kratom taught me my lesson with indulging too much. That shit is so inconspicuous because the effects you have when taking it are NOTHING close to the withdrawals, which are worse than any withdrawal I’ve ever had from an opiate. It took getting addicted to a plant you can buy in fuckin’ gas stations and smoke shops to teach me a lesson about prolonged drug use.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 20, 2021)

jaxadam said:


> I knew only very few would get it, but I knew I could count on you!



I dunno how I should feel about that.


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## jaxadam (Dec 20, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> I dunno how I should feel about that.



:fistbump:


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## LostTheTone (Dec 20, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Glad you're clean now man.



You and me both dude. Perhaps boringly I ended up just realising I was kinda miserable and needed to move on with my life. Something like... 10 years though? Not quite wasted, but invested unwisely. Instead these days I spend my money on rack gear and my wife; both new hobbies since I cleaned up. Not quite wasted but...


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## MFB (Dec 20, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> I dunno how I should feel about that.



Take it more as about your environment that you were able to pick it up, then because of who you are?


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## nightflameauto (Dec 20, 2021)

Conclusion after reading the last two pages: I've always lived in the wrong part of the country. I've never even seen coke IRL, though I did know a dude that swore he did it all the time. I was never sure if it was true 'cause that dude was one of the flakiest, weirdest motherfuckers I've ever met.

Weed though? Weed's everywhere.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 20, 2021)

nightflameauto said:


> Conclusion after reading the last two pages: I've always lived in the wrong part of the country. I've never even seen coke IRL, though I did know a dude that swore he did it all the time. I was never sure if it was true 'cause that dude was one of the flakiest, weirdest motherfuckers I've ever met.
> 
> Weed though? Weed's everywhere.



You've probably been closer to it than you realise. Even if you never saw it. People really do just take a gram or two to the pub. I don't know why; waste of good drugs IMHO. But people who do coke take it _everywhere_. They aren't all sloppy bitches who flash it around, but they genuinely don't see why they shouldn't. 

For those on this side of the pond, you would have seen in the news last week that a bunch of bathrooms next to the prime ministers office tested positive for cocaine. And, frankly, it doesn't surprise me even two seconds. I have moved in those circles (both political and coke heads) and they are the same type of people.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 20, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I have moved in those circles (both political and coke heads) and they are the same type of people.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 21, 2021)

MFB said:


> Take it more as about your environment that you were able to pick it up, then because of who you are?



I was being a bit sarcastic; I’ve always been pretty open about my drug use over the years and I’m sure Jaxadam has seen some of that. For many years I let my environment control who I was but those days are long gone. Now I’m just a shithead everywhere and anywhere.


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## Spicypickles (Dec 22, 2021)

Hmmm.

I’m a fan of the ole white powder myself, but after all these accidental fentanyl overdoses, I think I’m good from now on. I’m currently trying (failing) to quit drinking, but a lot of that is genetics.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 22, 2021)

Spicypickles said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> I’m a fan of the ole white powder myself, but after all these accidental fentanyl overdoses, I think I’m good from now on. I’m currently trying (failing) to quit drinking, but a lot of that is genetics.



Good to hear from another Irishman


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

Conversations like these always make me feel like the odd one out - I've never really enjoyed feeling impaired by anything. Being significantly drunk or high on anything just makes me feel like I've lost control of a situation, and that's the worst feeling.


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## odibrom (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Conversations like these always make me feel like the odd one out - I've never really enjoyed feeling impaired by anything. Being significantly drunk or high on anything just makes me feel like I've lost control of a situation, and that's the worst feeling.



+1 on this, you're not alone. I never smoked a cigarrete, never got drunk, never done drugs (besides medically prescript ones), never drank coffee, don't eat meat or fish since 1995, don't do dairy food as well... feels good this way, I'll keep it going...


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Conversations like these always make me feel like the odd one out - I've never really enjoyed feeling impaired by anything. Being significantly drunk or high on anything just makes me feel like I've lost control of a situation, and that's the worst feeling.



That’s definitely not a bad thing!

I know for most of us who have had issues with substances, it’s generally a lack of control over situations that lead us down that path, whether it be abuse or trauma. 

For a long time in my 20’s, getting blackout drunk relieved me of the feeling/knowledge I had to resolve issues that occurred during childhood by removing my ability to be in control. Until I had done it enough that even though I was absolutely hammered, the happy part of drinking stopped kicking in and I’d just get miserable. These days I can drink without worrying about blacking out simply because I no longer feel the need to do so added to the fact that I’m very nervous about my behavior when I get blackout drunk. I’ve done some really dumb shit over the years with zero recollection of it; like pissing on electrical outlets or in closets.


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

odibrom said:


> never drank coffee


I mean, I wouldn't quite go thaaaaaaaaaat far - I drink coffee like it's going out of style, but caffeine and cocaine are a far cry from each other. I know people like to go "but caffeine is a druuuuuug maaaaaaaan", but that's only correct in a technical/semantic sense, not a useful sense. You can stretch the semantics to call any food a drug if you really want to. Under normal circumstances, you can't seriously impair yourself with coffee.

And I'm not against any kind of recreational substances - I've had my phases where I drank a lot, and I still enjoy an occasional drink - but not _getting drunk_. My tolerance levels for most things is so low that it's hard to not cross that line, so I don't bother. An ex used to make us weed cookies and I'm glad to try em on rare occasions, 'cause she went out of her way to make them and it's not the end of the world, but they just destroy me - I am a useless shell of a human being after like a tiny nibble of those things, and I hate being in that state. I don't go into that mythical state of suddenly being super creative and open minded or whatever else people like to say - instead I just lose focus, lose balance, lose awareness, lose time, and get stuck restlessly waiting it out. And before anyone tries to lecture me about using the wrong strains or something - trust me, I've tried enough to know that pretty much all forms of weed destroy me beyond enjoyment. 



RevDrucifer said:


> it’s generally a lack of control over situations that lead us down that path


People get mad at me when I say this is basically just using the substance as a crutch. That's not to say I can't sympathize - because I can - I'm sure it helps in the short term as a coping mechanism, but sympathy doesn't change the fact that it's a bad idea - that it's trading short-term relief for the potential to impair yourself beyond being able to help yourself. I've watched people self-medicate with weed so often instead of addressing whatever was actually ailing them - and it's not the substance itself that's the problem - if you could smoke up AND address the root causes of your problems, then fine, I can't fault someone for seeking relief, I get that. The problem is that sometimes that second step never comes, and impairing yourself can make it harder to take those steps. And this leads to dependency, and denial that there's a dependency, and then the whole focus becomes about the substance and not about the thing the substance was supposed to help with.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Conversations like these always make me feel like the odd one out - I've never really enjoyed feeling impaired by anything. Being significantly drunk or high on anything just makes me feel like I've lost control of a situation, and that's the worst feeling.



Different strokes for different folks of course, but "impaired" isn't a helpful way to frame it, especially with regard to stimulants. Yes, you are impaired and you shouldn't be operating heavy machinery or anything, but you don't really perceive yourself as being impaired, especially not at the normal human levels of use. 

At normalish levels, stimulants make you focused and make your heart beat fast. They make you feel like you are ready for anything; the same kind of feeling you might get after you've warmed up and the big game is just about to start. Its kinda the opposite of feeling out of control, it feels like you absolutely got this. Coke specifically also causes a sense of euphoria, so not only are you pumped and ready for action, you feel really good about being pumped. 

There's obvious problems with this - Just because you think you got this doesn't mean you do. The unwarranted sense of self-confidence may well lead you to do stupid and dangerous things. And it will make you very irritated at people who are boring or slowing down whatever you are trying to do.

As someone who has ADHD and takes stimulants everyday - and seriously, methylphenidate is properly narcotic it's just not much fun - they fucking rock. Being able to focus for long periods on things you enjoy is something that lots of people appreciate, even those without a specific disorder. Of course it depends on having shit to do, and even then there is a pretty thin sweet spot for getting it just so. 

Once upon a time I was an enthusiastic substance abuser of all kinds, and would have mocked an derided those who didn't partake. But times change, and I had a lot of growing up to do. Back then, before I had legal meds, I basically did anything to deal with the constant boredom and frustration, and couldn't quite understand why other people didn't want to do the same. Why opiates worked for so long was because I could sit and read a book when I was high, something I cannot really do normally. Even stuff like smoking; cigarettes conveyed a certain relaxed contempt for the flesh that very much fit the person I wanted to be.

These days when, I am a lot closer to being normal, I basically don't feel a need to get high. I work, I feel tired, I sleep normally. I do very well at most things I set my mind to. And yes, that isn't quite drug free, but even so I can understand why people don't partake. Because when your life works alright, there's much less for you there.


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## nightflameauto (Dec 22, 2021)

I wasn't a substance dude at all as a younger dude. It wasn't until I'd been working in IT for a few years that I started hitting the bottle. Sometimes, the code running through your head just needs blotted out for a while. Though, I've only ever gotten impaired in public once. Every other time has been either at home, or with a buddy at his place. I'm absolutely NOT a social drinker.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 22, 2021)

nightflameauto said:


> I wasn't a substance dude at all as a younger dude. It wasn't until I'd been working in IT for a few years that I started hitting the bottle. Sometimes, the code running through your head just needs blotted out for a while. Though, I've only ever gotten impaired in public once. Every other time has been either at home, or with a buddy at his place. I'm absolutely NOT a social drinker.



An antisocial drinker you say? Another Irishman spotted


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Different strokes for different folks of course, but "impaired" isn't a helpful way to frame it, especially with regard to stimulants. Yes, you are impaired and you shouldn't be operating heavy machinery or anything, but you don't really perceive yourself as being impaired, especially not at the normal human levels of use.


I think it's a _very _useful way to frame it. I think we have very different opinions of what's meant by impaired, and I'm not implying that _every drug_ or _every effect_ is an impairment. If you're not perceiving yourself clearly or accurately, when you otherwise would, you're impaired, regardless of whether or not you _feel_ or acknowledge that you are. Impaired doesn't mean "I feel buzzed, I feel high", it means "I am lacking in some faculty I would have otherwise had". I can't think of a better way to frame that. And that's the line I draw - coffee doesn't impair you, despite being a stimulant. Alcohol absolutely impairs you. And while lots of people claim they're not impaired by weed, my experience has been the opposite.


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I basically did anything to deal with the constant boredom and frustration, and couldn't quite understand why other people didn't want to do the same.


Maybe I can better describe my experience as the flip-side of this. Just about any substance I've taken that impairs me leaves me in state where I feel something that's probably comparable to this frustration. I think to myself "I can't accomplish _anything_ like this, I can barely stand up or go to the washroom or remember what I was doing two minutes ago, and I cant trust my interpretation of any of what's going on right now, why would anyone want to be like this?"


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## LostTheTone (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I think it's a _very _useful way to frame it. I think we have very different opinions of what's meant by impaired, and I'm not implying that _every drug_ or _every effect_ is an impairment. If you're not perceiving yourself clearly or accurately, when you otherwise would, you're impaired, regardless of whether or not you _feel_ or acknowledge that you are. Impaired doesn't mean "I feel buzzed, I feel high", it means "I am lacking in some faculty I would have otherwise had". I can't think of a better way to frame that. And that's the line I draw - coffee doesn't impair you, despite being a stimulant. Alcohol absolutely impairs you. And while lots of people claim they're not impaired by weed, my experience has been the opposite.



Sorry dude; caffein is a stimulant. It's a _mild_ stimulant. But it's a stimulant. And that was kinda my point. Stimulants are not like drinking or like weed. You take them and often you don't even feel a real change. But it's still gently circulating through your blood and quietly adjusting your blood pressure, heart rate and your brain chemistry. You actually perceive yourself as being _more_ in control when you're doing stimulants.

I'm in no way recommending that you take up cocaine, but it misses the point a bit to say that you dislike feeling impaired, because it won't make you feel impaired. It'll get you high, but it's a different thing. It's still not advisable. But you won't feel impaired.



TedEH said:


> Maybe I can better describe my experience as the flip-side of this. Just about any substance I've taken that impairs me leaves me in state where I feel something that's probably comparable to this frustration. I think to myself "I can't accomplish _anything_ like this, I can barely stand up or go to the washroom or remember what I was doing two minutes ago, and I cant trust my interpretation of any of what's going on right now, why would anyone want to be like this?"



Certainly if you're someone with high focus, stimulants will mess with you. If I take too much Ritalin it makes me twitchy and irritable and I can't work well like that either. 

But for all that; coke won't make you a sloppy jerk. It will do lots of other things, but you'll make it to the bathroom ok (to do more blow) and things will feel very lucid and real. You'll make shitty decisions, but you'll be very clear that you made them.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> People get mad at me when I say this is basically just using the substance as a crutch. That's not to say I can't sympathize - because I can - I'm sure it helps in the short term as a coping mechanism, but sympathy doesn't change the fact that it's a bad idea - that it's trading short-term relief for the potential to impair yourself beyond being able to help yourself. I've watched people self-medicate with weed so often instead of addressing whatever was actually ailing them - and it's not the substance itself that's the problem - if you could smoke up AND address the root causes of your problems, then fine, I can't fault someone for seeking relief, I get that. The problem is that sometimes that second step never comes, and impairing yourself can make it harder to take those steps. And this leads to dependency, and denial that there's a dependency, and then the whole focus becomes about the substance and not about the thing the substance was supposed to help with.



You’re not wrong, it’s certainly a crutch. I got into a discussion/debate about this yesterday with some guys who have never had substance abuse issues over on TGP, the guys who believe it’s a simple choice to not partake. 

The problem comes in where there are no good/worthy coping mechanisms at hand to deal with issues. For me, it was the only coping mechanism I knew. My mother and stepfather were hardcore alcoholics who started giving me my first cocktails when I was 6. Not just a sip, but full cups of fuzzy navels until I’d pass out. Them and their friends thought it was hilarious, for me, it was the only time I could be with my parents when they weren’t angry. 

As I got older I found it was a deterrent from getting the shit kicked out of me; I could either risk taking a beating because my stepdad decided he didn’t like the color blue that day or I could throw him some cash, ask him to buy me a bottle of vodka and give him some and not have to deal with him at all after, with the fringe benefit being my buddies and I could get hammered. 

It was never a “I’m knowingly going to drink to resolve my problems”, it was _the only way I ever saw problems “solved” _and no amount of teachers or DARE officers who never lived in that situation could tell me otherwise. I’d sit in those classes and just chuckle thinking “These people have no fucking clue what they’re talking about. It’s not about doing it to fit in or to be cool, it’s out of self-preservation.” 

And once I was out of that situation there was a huge void left in me from regularly getting the shit kicked out of me by the people who were supposed to actually love me. The general idea was “If my own parents felt the need to do that, I must REALLY be a piece of shit.”, which pervaded every aspect of my life. 

It’s why I thoroughly believe that no amount of prohibition or criminalizing of drugs will ever be efficient; users and dealers will always find a way to get their hands on shit. But teaching healthy coping mechanisms from an early age can put a massive dent in substance abuse. Thankfully, mental health is discussed much more openly and recognized as a legit issue these days and hopefully some changes are made that reflect that.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Maybe I can better describe my experience as the flip-side of this. Just about any substance I've taken that impairs me leaves me in state where I feel something that's probably comparable to this frustration. I think to myself "I can't accomplish _anything_ like this, I can barely stand up or go to the washroom or remember what I was doing two minutes ago, and I cant trust my interpretation of any of what's going on right now, why would anyone want to be like this?"



I totally understand that and this gets into how drugs work for people in different ways. In my early 20’s I was surprised to find out how many people got a speedy rush off opiates. My ex-fiancé and I used to eat/snort pills regularly; I’d melt into the couch and she’d be cleaning the house and organizing stuff. We worked together at a Chili’s serving tables and would regularly be snorting shit in the bathroom throughout our shifts; for me I’d just slam coffee the entire shift to counteract the sedative effects but I’d have to most friendly, happy interactions with my guests while she was bouncing off the walls and turned into a motormouth. 

We got so used to it that it was like second nature and aside from me being sleepy and pounding energy drinks/coffee, there was never a feeling of impairment. Same thing years later when drinking became my drug of choice; I used to get blackout drunk at work and I wouldn’t fuck up. I suppose it’s not any different than Dimebag being 3 sheets to the wind and still going out and playing a flawless show.


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## Spicypickles (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Good to hear from another Irishman


You’re not wrong, grandmother was from Ireland.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 22, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> You’re not wrong, it’s certainly a crutch. I got into a discussion/debate about this yesterday with some guys who have never had substance abuse issues over on TGP, the guys who believe it’s a simple choice to not partake.
> 
> The problem comes in where there are no good/worthy coping mechanisms at hand to deal with issues. For me, it was the only coping mechanism I knew. My mother and stepfather were hardcore alcoholics who started giving me my first cocktails when I was 6. Not just a sip, but full cups of fuzzy navels until I’d pass out. Them and their friends thought it was hilarious, for me, it was the only time I could be with my parents when they weren’t angry.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this - And you have my sympathies for how you were brought up.

I don't think casual users have some gnawing void in their lives, but I do think anyone who arrives at daily use definitely has something else going on that they should deal with more productively. When you pass the point of needing to take it every day to avoid withdrawal, that's not just a fun thing that you are choosing to do. You're choosing to do it because using drugs (at least in the moment) is more attractive than resolving whatever else you have going on. A lot of the time you don't even want to acknowledge that there is an underlying problem.

Being an addict comes with a very clear calculus to it too, which kinda overtakes whatever else you might need to deal with. If you stick to the rules, being an addict is reasonably manageable. Your life might well be a disaster, but as long as you keep taking the drugs at the appropriate times you can still function alright, so you get very focused on making sure that happens, instead of your life being a disaster.

When I was younger, I probably would have told any well meaning doctors that I was fine just the way I was, thanks. And that's the real reason why it matters to learn things young and resolve (or at least manage) problems. While I understand why my mother didn't want to have me diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, and I still love her no matter what, I do still wonder how different my life would have been if I had actually had the chance to deal with it young. Almost literally everything about who I am today was shaped by those formative years, you know?

Most people manage to have a reasonably happy life without narcotics; so no matter how much a younger me might have called them boring (the worst thing anything can be if you have ADHD) they still had reasonably happy lives which I absolutely did not. And, as it turns out, the problem all along was with me, not with them.


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> Sorry dude; caffein is a stimulant.


I think you misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean to imply it's not. There's no debating that it's a stimulant. There IS room to debate, however, the semantics / whether or not it's useful to think of it as a drug, grouping it in with substances that have much more pronounced and meaningful effects.



LostTheTone said:


> I'm in no way recommending that you take up cocaine, but it misses the point a bit to say that you dislike feeling impaired, because it won't make you feel impaired. It'll get you high, but it's a different thing. It's still not advisable. But you won't feel impaired.


Again, it's a semantic disagreement on what is or isn't an impairment.
Example:


LostTheTone said:


> They make you feel like you are ready for anything [...] Just because you think you got this doesn't mean you do. The unwarranted sense of self-confidence may well lead you to do stupid and dangerous things





LostTheTone said:


> you'll make it to the bathroom ok (to do more blow)





LostTheTone said:


> You'll make shitty decisions


These are impairments. They are faulty judgments. Being lucid and aware of your bad decisions doesn't mean the substance didn't influence you in that direction. If you would not have otherwise made shitty decisions, _that's an impairment_ to your decision making process. Coffee does not leave me with an unwarranted sense that I can take on anything that I can't actually do. It's doesn't make me unable to operate machinery. Don't get me wrong, I've not tried coke and I don't plan to, so I can't speak to what the experience actually is, but I can't imagine that it's trivial, given how strong the dependence on it seems to be (and I'd call that strong dependence an impairment in itself) and how afraid of it a lot of people seem to be. The friends I've got who are normally pretty open and experimental with whatever they get their hands on won't touch coke with a 30 ft pole. It sounds like you're describing it as being like drinking _so much coffee that you think you're superman_.

The only people I've known who did any coke where I could see them do it - they'd get insanely excitable - they need to do EVERYTHING and they need to do it NOW and they're PUMPED for it - then they'd crash hard and be useless for the rest of the day. That's not productive or healthy behaviour, and not normal for them otherwise, and I feel comfortable calling that a type of impairment.

The thing I would be willing to think of as a good counter-argument would be the dependency part - 'cause I know if I cold-turkey stopped drinking coffee, I'd get a splitting headache and be irritable for a while. But then, at the same time, any drastic change in diet is _also_ going to mess with your mood and state of health, and can give you headaches, etc. I mainly just meant to poke at how people like to talk about coffee as if it's this powerful mind-altering substance, when it's one of the mildest possible things you could do to influence your state of mind.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 22, 2021)

Man I wish I wasnt a substance person. At this point, I eat edibles, and have an adderall every once and a while, but I have been through pretty much every type of substance in my life. Biggest crutch was dope for a while, started with oxycontins and moved to fentynyl and lost 5 friends to it. My wife was hooked too for a while before we got together. It hit my community really really hard here in Ohio.


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## LostTheTone (Dec 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The only people I've known who did any coke where I could see them do it - they'd get insanely excitable - they need to do EVERYTHING and they need to do it NOW and they're PUMPED for it - then they'd crash hard and be useless for the rest of the day. That's not productive or healthy behaviour, and not normal for them otherwise, and I feel comfortable calling that a type of impairment.
> 
> The thing I would be willing to think of as a good counter-argument would be the dependency part - 'cause I know if I cold-turkey stopped drinking coffee, I'd get a splitting headache and be irritable for a while. But then, at the same time, any drastic change in diet is _also_ going to mess with your mood and state of health, and can give you headaches, etc. I mainly just meant to poke at how people like to talk about coffee as if it's this powerful mind-altering substance, when it's one of the mildest possible things you could do to influence your state of mind.



I agree with you to some degree, but there's a sliding scale here. Yes, snorting anything makes it hit you very quickly. That's why people do it. Snort it, smoke or inject it to get the biggest, quickest hit. But if you compared to people taking speed in pill or speedbomb form (or me popping my morning Ritalin) then you wouldn't see a lot of difference, at least not for a while. And drugs are expensive, and people want the biggest bang for their buck.

You're right that caffein isn't a massively potent substance, but then you take it by the slowest route and in a dilute form. The ability to consume the coffee is a limiting factor on how much caffein you can force into your body that way. I used to be keen on poppy tea and that has the same limitations as coffee. You can make a good strong cup, but if you want to get really high you need to consume like a gallon of the stuff, and even if you do it'll take two or three hours to get you there. 

There are more adventurous ways to take caffein - People do coffee (and wine too) enemas. Seriously. Your butt takes up caffein faster. And people really do do it. You can also take tablets or get it in powder form. IIRC you can't really snort it, because it's not water soluable, but you can get a lot of it into your stomach quickly if you want. It'll take time to pass into your blood, but you can get pretty high or at least pretty jacked up that way. Of course you can inject it too; although I can't imagine why you would want to; but you could. 

Point being that caffein is as powerful as you want it to be. When you just want a cup of morning joe, that's not a problem. If you are honking down 40 ProPlus tablets, that's a bad look. 

I don't mean to bust your chops over caffein btw - It's just that the way that we conceive of drugs generally is weird. Like you say, that sort of instant impact followed by a crash does seem somehow different but it's really just a matter of scale. And in the end, the fact we are having this discussion goes to show that it's a sliding scale rather than black and white. 

There really are people out there right now who are inserting two pints of coffee into their rectums and I really don't understand why, but I think we can all agree that if you have to put stuff up your butt to get a buzz, you are an addict.


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## nightflameauto (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> `. . .but I think we can all agree that if you have to put stuff up your butt to get a buzz, you are an addict.


Something something something, homophobic.

Alt take: TOO MANY JOKES! MUST MOCK JOEY!


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> limitations [...] if you want to get really high


And that's just it - I'm talking about having a cup of coffee (or maybe 3 or 4 a day), not taking caffeine enemas.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 22, 2021)

Recreational drugs are just like prescribed drugs. Everyone reacts differently and not every drug has the same effect on everyone. I can smoke weed all day on the weekends and not miss a beat, I don't get trapped in the couch, I don't half-ass my responsibilities, I'd be perfectly fine being stoned out of my gourd at my job and would function at the same level as I do without it (I wouldn't smoke before/at work because it would be a waste of weed, IMO). I know other people that take one rip and have to crawl under a blanket, or manically clean their house. I know some people who can get blackout wasted and still be fun to be around, having a good time (until the puking starts), whereas I'll have a few, but once I feel I'm having trouble with hard consonants or fine motor skills it's time to grab a water because for me the line between "fun drunk" and "HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS?!" drunk is pretty narrow. I've known people who can jump on a pile of coke for a couple of days an then never even think about the stuff for years, and other people that can't even think about the stuff without turning into a pile of shit.


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## odibrom (Dec 22, 2021)

... errr... just to clarify my choices, I don't drink coffe 'cause I don't like the taste of it, it tastes like burnt toast water. I don't also drink beer because I also don't like the taste of it. As for other alcoholic drinks, I only like the sweet ones, but since I'm almost vegan, those hit me way faster... and I won't ever get drunk...


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 22, 2021)

LostTheTone said:


> I agree with all of this - And you have my sympathies for how you were brought up.
> 
> I don't think casual users have some gnawing void in their lives, but I do think anyone who arrives at daily use definitely has something else going on that they should deal with more productively. When you pass the point of needing to take it every day to avoid withdrawal, that's not just a fun thing that you are choosing to do. You're choosing to do it because using drugs (at least in the moment) is more attractive than resolving whatever else you have going on. A lot of the time you don't even want to acknowledge that there is an underlying problem.
> 
> ...



Hahahaha I was definitely the type that didn’t want to acknowledge the problems. I figured I’d long moved past it all because it had been years since I even thought about it, but I never verbalized any of it to anyone until I got shitfaced one night and while trying to explain to my ex-wife why I needed space to figure out what was going on with me, she dragged it out of me. I was quite surprised when I went through everything, especially at how the list of issues/abuses that didn’t seem to end. 

It was 12 years of partying like a maniac and having nothing but good times with it, it wasn’t until the end of that 12th year I started getting really depressed and angry when I drank and I realized no one was coming over to hang out anymore, no more parties were being thrown in my house. I honestly just believed I was living life like Dimebag, just enjoying my ride here. 

That was another thing that I debated over on TGP, there were a bunch saying they’ve never met a functional addict, to which my reply was “Sure you have, you just didn’t know it.” I was fucking wasted on everything and anything during my 20’s, but I always knew how to not go too far with it so people wouldn’t be able to tell. Well, aside from that first night I did blow down here and snorted the whole baggie.  My best friend is a complete functioning alcoholic. I’ve known him 20 years and even with my drinking experiences, I can’t tell when he’s drunk unless he’s on a 3-4 day binge. 

I appreciate the sympathies but at this point I’ve quite come to terms with the fact that all that stuff made me who I am and while there was a lot of periods of great suckage, I’m very content with my life and who I turned out to be. It’s all good! I don’t bring that stuff up for sympathy or pity, just in hopes it helps people understand a user’s mind better. It’s something that really can’t be thoroughly understood until you’ve actually lived it. 

The biggest thing I wish people would realize is that it’s never a choice of doing drug, that’s not how it’s presented to people who have addiction issues. It’s a choice of “Do I deal with this or do I get some relief?”, or in my case, “Do I get my ass beat or be happy?”, the drug itself is never part of that choice. The discussion yesterday revolved around fentanyl and there were so many, “why do people even use it if they know how dangerous it is?”, that’s not the thought process behind it _at all. _And if it is, it’s usually done BECAUSE it’s that dangerous and some people are addicted to the idea of living dangerously or seeing how close to death they can take themselves without actually dying. 

I had always wanted to try heroin until I finally tried it (snorting it), said “That’s it?” and didn’t bother again until I got it in a different form and thank fuckin’ god I couldn’t get my hands on that regularly because I absolutely would have gotten addicted to it. The few times I smoked it I loved everything about it, knowing full and well what the risks were. 

Drugs are bad, mmkay?


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 22, 2021)

odibrom said:


> ... errr... just to clarify my choices, I don't drink coffe 'cause I don't like the taste of it, it tastes like burnt toast water. I don't also drink beer because I also don't like the taste of it. As for other alcoholic drinks, I only like the sweet ones, but since I'm almost vegan, those hit me way faster... and I won't ever get drunk...



Hahahah I went vegan about 5 years ago (I fell off the wagon 6 months ago but I’m crawling back on) and yeah, I went from putting down a bottle of vodka by myself to getting about 3 drinks in and calling it quits. I know how that goes!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 22, 2021)

Man, I REALLY love coffee and drink it right up until bed but putting up my ass is something that’s never once crossed my mind, or any other drug for that matter. 

I had a friend trying to convince me to plug ecstasy one night and I couldn’t stop laughing at him long enough for him to get his point across. Once he got to “It only burns until it dissolves” I was done for.


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## jaxadam (Dec 22, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> I had a friend trying to convince me to plug ecstasy one night and I couldn’t stop laughing at him long enough for him to get his point across. Once he got to “It only burns until it dissolves” I was done for.



colon rollin'!


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> The biggest thing I wish people would realize is that it’s never a choice of doing drug, that’s not how it’s presented to people who have addiction issues. It’s a choice of “Do I deal with this or do I get some relief?”, or in my case, “Do I get my ass beat or be happy?”, the drug itself is never part of that choice. The discussion yesterday revolved around fentanyl and there were so many, “why do people even use it if they know how dangerous it is?”, that’s not the thought process behind it _at all. _And if it is, it’s usually done BECAUSE it’s that dangerous and some people are addicted to the idea of living dangerously or seeing how close to death they can take themselves without actually dying.


The times that it's really frustrated me is when I'd encounter someone who _started_ an addiction while in a difficult spot, but maintained the habit once the source was gone, and refused to accept that it was problematic or that there might be a better solution. Like one of my exes would probably never admit it, but her drug use likely started in part as a coping mechanism for being part of a really abusive family - similar idea, unfair expectations, regular beatings, etc. But she's not interacted with any of them _for decades_ now. I'm sympathetic to the fact that shit like that doesn't just go away, you can't just drop it and go "I'm good now, moving on". I know that. But once you're a decade removed from the original abuse, and the substance use is still affecting the people around you - maybe it's time for therapy. It might be time to admit the substance is a crutch and accept the help and support being offered to you. And it's fine to be "functional" while taking whatever substance you take, but not everyone is self-aware of how functional they actually are (or aren't). On several occasions I'd be visiting, while we were still dating, and I'd have gone over for some purpose, or with the intent to go out, or just so we could pick something up and go back to my place or whatever, but as soon as the bongs came out (which was immediately, because her roommate was also a huge stoner) - they'd be on the moon watching nature documentaries and arguing about ancient weapons and forgetting that I was still there and had places we had agreed to be, things we'd agreed to do, etc., but that all melted away - all while insisting that being high was "her normal" and that she never progressed past being functional. And I could have dealt with it - but on top of some other issues (mostly related to boundaries, if anyone remembers from the relationship thread) - I just couldn't put up with it for long. And it left me kinda resentful of the idea of leaning on something like that as a crutch at the expense of the people around you. It's unfair, I know, it's not very sympathetic, I'm aware. But it is what it is.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 26, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The times that it's really frustrated me is when I'd encounter someone who _started_ an addiction while in a difficult spot, but maintained the habit once the source was gone, and refused to accept that it was problematic or that there might be a better solution. Like one of my exes would probably never admit it, but her drug use likely started in part as a coping mechanism for being part of a really abusive family - similar idea, unfair expectations, regular beatings, etc. But she's not interacted with any of them _for decades_ now. I'm sympathetic to the fact that shit like that doesn't just go away, you can't just drop it and go "I'm good now, moving on". I know that. But once you're a decade removed from the original abuse, and the substance use is still affecting the people around you - maybe it's time for therapy. It might be time to admit the substance is a crutch and accept the help and support being offered to you. And it's fine to be "functional" while taking whatever substance you take, but not everyone is self-aware of how functional they actually are (or aren't). On several occasions I'd be visiting, while we were still dating, and I'd have gone over for some purpose, or with the intent to go out, or just so we could pick something up and go back to my place or whatever, but as soon as the bongs came out (which was immediately, because her roommate was also a huge stoner) - they'd be on the moon watching nature documentaries and arguing about ancient weapons and forgetting that I was still there and had places we had agreed to be, things we'd agreed to do, etc., but that all melted away - all while insisting that being high was "her normal" and that she never progressed past being functional. And I could have dealt with it - but on top of some other issues (mostly related to boundaries, if anyone remembers from the relationship thread) - I just couldn't put up with it for long. And it left me kinda resentful of the idea of leaning on something like that as a crutch at the expense of the people around you. It's unfair, I know, it's not very sympathetic, I'm aware. But it is what it is.



No one is obligated to deal with someone’s addiction and if it’s a known issue that the addict is ignoring, I don’t think it’s unsympathetic to walk away after shit doesn’t get better. Look at the options in almost every intervention; get better or no longer enjoy the presence of friends and family. 

I know in my case, it was about 2 decades before things came to a head. I honestly believed that I had already gotten over everything by the time it really started affecting me negatively. It wasn’t anything I thought about at that point in my life, that’s for sure. It wasn’t until the drinking was making me absolutely miserable and I started getting concerned I couldn’t stop that I addressed things. And for me, it was a simple as just getting closure on it from the people involved; mainly my father who didn’t come and get me out of that situation when he knew things were pretty bad. To his credit, he didn’t know things were as bad as they were. It’s not like my mom was telling him about the things going on. 

And if it was just smoking weed that she had an issue with, if she was like me, it seems like such a non-issue because it’s “just weed”. Especially where people are prescribed it for practically everything and anything these days and you’re not shooting up or becoming belligerent with it, so it seems less harmful. But if you need it to function, there’s an issue. I was like that from 16-26 and replaced it with the drinking, I’d be miserable if I couldn’t get high. Once I addressed my issues, that went away as well. 

Once addiction has taken root, it’s an amazing bullshitter. Just look what some addictions to to otherwise great people; people will steal from their own families to feed an addiction and think nothing of it. It requires a moment of clarity to realize “Oh shit, I have a problem” and then a GREAT deal of drive and determination to get past it, some people never do. I know some people who have had that moment of clarity and the next day they’re back to using whatever their substance of choice was. Unfortunately, rock bottom is the frequent path they have to go down to change anything. 

Addiction is bigger than any one human being and I’ve met many people over the years who think that just by telling their loved one with a problem “Hey, you have a drinking problem, take care of it now, please.” that it’ll actually happen. That’s not the way it works. Especially after years of prolonged use, there are so many crossed wires that need to be uncrossed, actual chemical changes that have taken place in the brain. 

My best friend who has been struggling with booze and coke for the last 10 years tells me all the time, “Man, I didn’t drink for 2 weeks and I just feel like shit. I have no desire to do anything unless I’m drinking. I don’t see how being sober is supposed to be better, at least I play my guitar and leave the house if I’m drinking.” That dude needs months of time away from it with therapy. Despite the position I hold in his life, despite the fact that I prevented him from taking himself out by shoving my fingers down his throat and making him puke up pills one night and all the help I’ve given him over the years, he refuses to take my advice that he needs to be sober for at least a year before he can expect things to turn around. I know it’s not him, it’s the addiction. It’s bigger than I am and it’s certainly become bigger than he is.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 26, 2021)

Just an update regarding my bass player who I believed was bullshitting about this investor and buying the band all this gear, well, my foot is firmly in my mouth. He’s been sending me pics of him posing with a new PA, a couple new basses, a new Ampeg rig and he bought me a Dry Bell Vibe pedal for Christmas. 

I truly don’t know what to believe anymore. It’s unfathomable that “investors” have given him $100K for our cover band, which has had one practice and have maybe 15 songs together…..but the dude is coming up with money for this gear somehow and unless he got REALLY fucking good with photoshop, he actually bought everything he was talking about buying. 

I’m very anxious to see where this goes.


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## CanserDYI (Dec 26, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> Just an update regarding my bass player who I believed was bullshitting about this investor and buying the band all this gear, well, my foot is firmly in my mouth. He’s been sending me pics of him posing with a new PA, a couple new basses, a new Ampeg rig and he bought me a Dry Bell Vibe pedal for Christmas.
> 
> I truly don’t know what to believe anymore. It’s unfathomable that “investors” have given him $100K for our cover band, which has had one practice and have maybe 15 songs together…..but the dude is coming up with money for this gear somehow and unless he got REALLY fucking good with photoshop, he actually bought everything he was talking about buying.
> 
> I’m very anxious to see where this goes.


Kick ass man! Really hope that comes to fruition that would be a really cool thing for you.


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## odibrom (Dec 26, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> Just an update regarding my bass player who I believed was bullshitting about this investor and buying the band all this gear, well, my foot is firmly in my mouth. He’s been sending me pics of him posing with a new PA, a couple new basses, a new Ampeg rig and he bought me a Dry Bell Vibe pedal for Christmas.
> 
> I truly don’t know what to believe anymore. It’s unfathomable that “investors” have given him $100K for our cover band, which has had one practice and have maybe 15 songs together…..but the dude is coming up with money for this gear somehow and unless he got REALLY fucking good with photoshop, he actually bought everything he was talking about buying.
> 
> I’m very anxious to see where this goes.



Could it be money laundry? There's nothing free in this world, so be careful/mindful with what you're selling.

Nevertheless, good luck!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 26, 2021)

odibrom said:


> Could it be money laundry? There's nothing free in this world, so be careful/mindful with what you're selling.
> 
> Nevertheless, good luck!



I’m not sure I’d stretch that far just yet, I’m thinking he got a line of credit or a loan or something and is just going crazy on a spending spree. 

I’m not selling or buying anything through him and I’ll have no problem giving the Dry Bell back if I smell something fishy. Really, I just don’t want to waste time in another band with a flake/bullshitter; whatever he’s involved in is his own deal and he doesn’t know enough personal info about me to trap me into anything.


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## odibrom (Dec 26, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> I’m not sure I’d stretch that far just yet, I’m thinking he got a line of credit or a loan or something and is just going crazy on a spending spree.
> 
> I’m not selling or buying anything through him and I’ll have no problem giving the Dry Bell back if I smell something fishy. Really, I just don’t want to waste time in another band with a flake/bullshitter; whatever he’s involved in is his own deal and he doesn’t know enough personal info about me to trap me into anything.



Could he trap the band?... could he be selling your rights? 100k is a lot of money to be given without asking anything back...


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## TedEH (Dec 26, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> such a non-issue because it’s “just weed”





RevDrucifer said:


> if you need it to function


Not to re-derail, but yeah. I think you've got a pretty clear picture of everything I was thinking.



RevDrucifer said:


> It’s unfathomable that “investors” have given him $100K for our cover band


That sounds squarely like red flag territory to me. If it's legit then.... well, alright... but I'd want to meet this investor and/or be very clear about any expectations on any side before getting super deep.


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 27, 2021)

odibrom said:


> Could he trap the band?... could he be selling your rights? 100k is a lot of money to be given without asking anything back...



It’s a cover band, not much he can sell the rights to!


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 27, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Not to re-derail, but yeah. I think you've got a pretty clear picture of everything I was thinking.
> 
> 
> That sounds squarely like red flag territory to me. If it's legit then.... well, alright... but I'd want to meet this investor and/or be very clear about any expectations on any side before getting super deep.



My footing in this band has been one band practice and some text messages, so I’m not too concerned. This dude doesn’t even know my last name . Hell, I doubt he even realizes my name is actually Andrew and not Drew.


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## odibrom (Dec 27, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> It’s a cover band, not much he can sell the rights to!



The band's name is something to think about... but since you're not that deep in it, guess you're safe...?


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## RevDrucifer (Dec 27, 2021)

odibrom said:


> The band's name is something to think about... but since you're not that deep in it, guess you're safe...?



We haven’t even picked one for sure yet! They’ve never gigged as a band, when I say it’s in it’s infancy stages, it’s barely even in diapers. The embryo is just starting to form features, is more appropriate.


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## odibrom (Dec 27, 2021)

RevDrucifer said:


> We haven’t even picked one for sure yet! They’ve never gigged as a band, when I say it’s in it’s infancy stages, it’s barely even in diapers. The embryo is just starting to form features, is more appropriate.



Then how the hell did the bass player get that money? $100K is a lot of money to be handed over from night to day without any guarantee, investors he says...?... it sounds fishy af...


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## nightflameauto (Dec 28, 2021)

How old is the dude getting the cash? Did he have a sick relative? Is he still living at home and sponging off the parents?

This whole story sounds fucky to me somehow.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Dec 28, 2021)

Who in the right mind gives that kind of cash to a bass player? Between that and the cocaine stories, this thread delivers.


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## odibrom (Dec 28, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Who in the right mind gives that kind of cash to a bass player? Between that and the cocaine stories, this thread delivers.



Who in his/her right mind hands that kind of money to 1 person of a COVER band with 2 or 3 rehearsals and no gig record as a functional band...


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Dec 28, 2021)

odibrom said:


> Who in his/her right mind hands that kind of money to 1 person of a COVER band with 2 or 3 rehearsals and no gig record as a functional band...


Since we're on the subject, rich coked out uncle?


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## nightflameauto (Dec 29, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Since we're on the subject, rich coked out "uncle?"


FTFY. As in "this is my nephew" as they check into the seedy motel.


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